{"total":{"value":166,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-10-24"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"16210","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16210","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a05998180c4b1e7cf40bfff31f9dc412796059d4d42a7fce21287a78f71c8c3b3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T15:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：一、繼續研商有關「114年度中央政府總預算案（含附屬單位預算及綜計表－營業及非營業部分）」及「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案」、「113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案」（民進黨黨團提議）二、研商有關「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」案（國民黨黨團提議））","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T17:54:00+08:00","duration":12226,"影片長度":"03:23:46","委員發言時間":"14:30:14 - 17:54:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2024102370","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.04721875,"end":814.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1820.1853437500001,"end":1820.2359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1820.9784687500003,"end":1824.6065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1821.3159687500001,"end":1821.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1821.8897187500002,"end":1823.9315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1831.0865937500002,"end":1831.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1831.3059687500001,"end":1831.3397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1831.3397187500002,"end":1831.3734687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1831.3734687500003,"end":1832.6390937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1832.95971875,"end":1834.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1834.3265937500003,"end":1834.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1834.8834687500002,"end":1834.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1834.9509687500001,"end":1835.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1835.76096875,"end":1835.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1835.91284375,"end":1838.2415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1836.6722187500002,"end":1840.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1839.1190937500003,"end":1843.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1843.4390937500002,"end":1844.7215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1845.3965937500002,"end":1846.7972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1846.9490937500002,"end":1847.2697187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1848.1809687500001,"end":1848.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1849.2440937500003,"end":1850.4590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1850.66159375,"end":1851.4547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1852.9734687500002,"end":1856.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1853.7159687500002,"end":1855.7915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1856.6859687500003,"end":1857.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1856.7703437500002,"end":1857.3947187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1857.9515937500003,"end":1859.8584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1861.5459687500002,"end":1861.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1863.6890937500002,"end":1863.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1863.75659375,"end":1864.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1863.8747187500003,"end":1863.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1863.9759687500002,"end":1864.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1864.73534375,"end":1864.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1864.75221875,"end":1867.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1867.3847187500003,"end":1871.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1872.1772187500003,"end":1875.3328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1876.2440937500003,"end":1881.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1882.1503437500003,"end":1883.5678437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1884.3103437500001,"end":1887.2972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1897.08471875,"end":1907.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1907.2772187500002,"end":1908.4247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1908.9647187500002,"end":1911.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1911.9684687500003,"end":1912.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1913.7065937500001,"end":1915.2759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1915.6303437500003,"end":1917.1322187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1917.2503437500002,"end":1918.2628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1918.3978437500002,"end":1918.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1926.2109687500001,"end":1926.8184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1933.3997187500001,"end":1978.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1980.1772187500003,"end":2039.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2039.2734687500001,"end":2039.3240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2039.3240937500002,"end":2140.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2141.09721875,"end":2148.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2148.4040937500004,"end":2153.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2152.25159375,"end":2152.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2153.0447187500004,"end":2154.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2155.2215937500005,"end":2156.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2157.1622187500006,"end":2163.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2163.43971875,"end":2168.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2169.58221875,"end":2171.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2171.80971875,"end":2173.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2174.0878437500005,"end":2181.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2182.5759687500004,"end":2192.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2192.5997187500006,"end":2194.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2194.54034375,"end":2197.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2197.5272187500004,"end":2202.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2202.5897187500004,"end":2211.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2211.9384687500005,"end":2220.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2221.42221875,"end":2223.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2224.0547187500006,"end":2226.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2226.92346875,"end":2232.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2232.9647187500004,"end":2254.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2254.34534375,"end":2256.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2256.80909375,"end":2259.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2259.40784375,"end":2263.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2263.1034687500005,"end":2270.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2271.50721875,"end":2274.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2274.9665937500004,"end":2276.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2277.10971875,"end":2280.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2280.97409375,"end":2284.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2284.6697187500004,"end":2286.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2287.2009687500004,"end":2289.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2289.5465937500003,"end":2299.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2300.5322187500005,"end":2303.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2303.94096875,"end":2304.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2305.2234687500004,"end":2308.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2308.3115937500006,"end":2314.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2316.1415937500005,"end":2325.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2326.18221875,"end":2329.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2329.77659375,"end":2331.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2332.2403437500006,"end":2347.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2348.15346875,"end":2353.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2353.3172187500004,"end":2356.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2357.1140937500004,"end":2361.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2361.61971875,"end":2365.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2366.3447187500005,"end":2370.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2370.83346875,"end":2373.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2374.19159375,"end":2378.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2378.59596875,"end":2425.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2426.21721875,"end":2429.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2430.25034375,"end":2437.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2437.86096875,"end":2447.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2448.22221875,"end":2452.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2453.3522187500002,"end":2454.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2455.44471875,"end":2460.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2460.7772187500004,"end":2466.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2466.3965937500006,"end":2475.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2475.5428437500004,"end":2482.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2482.68096875,"end":2483.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2483.5078437500006,"end":2494.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2494.9490937500004,"end":2496.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2496.50159375,"end":2505.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2506.32284375,"end":2511.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2512.16159375,"end":2520.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2520.88596875,"end":2526.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2527.1297187500004,"end":2528.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2528.85096875,"end":2530.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2530.5047187500004,"end":2531.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2532.36096875,"end":2542.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2542.89096875,"end":2544.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2544.6628437500003,"end":2545.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2545.7428437500002,"end":2548.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2548.5272187500004,"end":2551.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2551.75034375,"end":2552.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2553.38721875,"end":2561.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2561.87534375,"end":2563.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2563.9003437500005,"end":2577.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2578.26096875,"end":2587.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2587.84596875,"end":2590.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2591.0184687500005,"end":2596.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2596.84034375,"end":2599.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2600.4853437500005,"end":2602.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2603.0165937500005,"end":2604.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2604.95721875,"end":2605.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2606.00346875,"end":2606.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2607.3028437500006,"end":2608.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2608.83846875,"end":2609.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2609.7665937500005,"end":2610.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2610.82971875,"end":2614.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2615.21721875,"end":2620.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2620.81971875,"end":2622.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2622.92909375,"end":2628.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2629.5272187500004,"end":2632.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2633.17221875,"end":2636.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2636.8678437500002,"end":2638.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2638.7409687500003,"end":2680.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2680.55721875,"end":2688.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2688.7078437500004,"end":2689.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2690.14221875,"end":2692.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2692.6228437500004,"end":2693.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2693.93909375,"end":2696.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2697.01034375,"end":2699.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2699.17034375,"end":2713.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2714.0203437500004,"end":2715.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2716.53471875,"end":2719.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2719.5553437500002,"end":2720.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2720.4834687500006,"end":2745.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2745.3572187500004,"end":2752.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2755.9209687500006,"end":2758.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2759.32971875,"end":2762.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2762.6540937500004,"end":2766.6534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2767.0753437500007,"end":2769.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2770.04534375,"end":2772.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2773.35284375,"end":2774.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2775.05721875,"end":2776.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2777.2003437500007,"end":2778.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2778.1959687500002,"end":2779.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2780.17034375,"end":2780.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2780.59221875,"end":2783.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2784.15284375,"end":2786.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2787.4940937500005,"end":2789.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2789.94096875,"end":2792.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2792.0672187500004,"end":2795.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2796.4040937500004,"end":2799.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2799.74534375,"end":2801.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2801.97284375,"end":2804.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2804.94284375,"end":2808.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2809.0772187500006,"end":2810.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2810.9503437500007,"end":2811.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2812.51971875,"end":2813.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2813.66721875,"end":2814.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2815.30409375,"end":2815.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2816.4178437500004,"end":2817.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2817.71721875,"end":2819.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2819.1178437500002,"end":2819.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2820.5690937500003,"end":2823.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2824.0622187500003,"end":2825.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2826.4922187500006,"end":2826.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2827.42034375,"end":2828.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2828.6015937500006,"end":2829.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2830.3397187500004,"end":2830.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2831.82471875,"end":2834.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2835.48659375,"end":2836.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2837.0390937500006,"end":2837.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2837.7647187500006,"end":2841.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2841.6628437500003,"end":2842.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2843.38409375,"end":2843.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2844.83534375,"end":2846.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2846.4384687500005,"end":2848.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2849.1553437500006,"end":2850.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2850.43784375,"end":2851.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2852.61471875,"end":2853.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2853.9140937500006,"end":2854.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2856.5465937500003,"end":2858.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2858.75721875,"end":2859.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2860.3603437500005,"end":2864.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2864.8659687500003,"end":2865.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2866.04721875,"end":2867.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2868.62909375,"end":2869.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2869.6247187500003,"end":2871.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2872.4090937500005,"end":2874.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2875.2272187500002,"end":2876.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2877.03284375,"end":2878.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2878.6697187500004,"end":2879.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2880.3740937500006,"end":2881.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2881.70721875,"end":2883.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2884.2890937500006,"end":2887.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2888.00159375,"end":2889.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2889.60471875,"end":2890.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2891.2584687500002,"end":2892.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2892.3553437500004,"end":2893.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2894.3465937500005,"end":2895.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2896.18596875,"end":2897.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2897.5359687500004,"end":2901.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2901.97409375,"end":2903.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2904.06659375,"end":2904.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2904.8428437500006,"end":2905.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2905.9903437500006,"end":2906.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2907.08721875,"end":2908.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2908.47096875,"end":2909.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2910.46221875,"end":2916.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2917.1784687500003,"end":2919.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2919.7265937500006,"end":2922.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2923.01721875,"end":2925.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2926.20659375,"end":2926.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2926.2403437500006,"end":2926.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2926.2909687500005,"end":2926.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2926.30784375,"end":2926.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2926.32471875,"end":2926.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2926.79721875,"end":2926.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2927.0165937500005,"end":2927.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2928.13034375,"end":2929.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2930.54346875,"end":2931.1847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2931.6065937500007,"end":2932.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2932.93971875,"end":2933.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2934.0534687500003,"end":2934.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2935.3190937500003,"end":2936.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2937.46221875,"end":2938.3397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2938.9978437500004,"end":2942.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2942.4909687500003,"end":2945.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2945.30909375,"end":2950.5909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2951.09721875,"end":2955.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2956.7334687500006,"end":2957.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2959.6190937500005,"end":2963.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2963.6015937500006,"end":2965.3397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2965.6434687500005,"end":2969.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2970.0309687500003,"end":2975.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2975.8359687500006,"end":2977.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2977.42221875,"end":2980.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2981.0672187500004,"end":2988.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2989.18409375,"end":2996.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2996.17034375,"end":3001.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3002.54909375,"end":3005.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3006.4303437500002,"end":3008.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3009.0459687500006,"end":3010.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3010.5309687500003,"end":3010.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3011.2734687500006,"end":3012.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3013.1972187500005,"end":3015.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3016.23471875,"end":3017.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3017.9559687500005,"end":3018.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3019.9978437500004,"end":3024.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3024.6384687500004,"end":3025.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3025.9209687500006,"end":3026.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3027.45659375,"end":3032.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3033.0928437500006,"end":3033.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3034.3584687500006,"end":3037.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3038.30721875,"end":3039.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3040.9059687500003,"end":3042.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3042.10409375,"end":3045.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3045.71534375,"end":3048.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3048.83721875,"end":3050.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3050.7440937500005,"end":3053.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3053.96721875,"end":3055.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3056.4140937500006,"end":3057.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3057.7978437500005,"end":3059.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3060.2784687500007,"end":3066.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3067.58534375,"end":3068.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3068.47971875,"end":3071.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3072.2597187500005,"end":3075.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3075.24659375,"end":3076.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3077.10284375,"end":3081.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3081.92909375,"end":3088.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3089.8097187500007,"end":3101.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3102.4997187500003,"end":3106.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3107.5622187500003,"end":3107.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3108.2878437500003,"end":3109.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3110.1609687500004,"end":3110.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3111.7472187500007,"end":3118.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3118.98659375,"end":3164.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3165.4940937500005,"end":3181.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3181.96409375,"end":3182.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3183.11159375,"end":3184.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3184.5965937500005,"end":3191.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3191.5153437500003,"end":3202.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3202.7372187500005,"end":3204.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3204.03659375,"end":3204.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3204.10409375,"end":3204.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3204.50909375,"end":3204.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3204.5428437500004,"end":3205.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3205.16721875,"end":3205.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3205.5553437500002,"end":3206.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3208.13721875,"end":3208.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3209.28471875,"end":3209.7403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3210.78659375,"end":3211.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3212.64284375,"end":3223.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3223.91534375,"end":3228.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3228.79221875,"end":3241.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3242.24159375,"end":3243.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3243.9122187500006,"end":3247.0509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3247.5740937500004,"end":3248.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3248.9072187500005,"end":3253.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3253.8009687500007,"end":3258.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3258.64409375,"end":3260.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3261.3947187500007,"end":3266.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3266.84534375,"end":3275.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3276.6834687500004,"end":3294.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3294.9590937500006,"end":3295.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3295.8534687500005,"end":3309.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3309.5222187500003,"end":3322.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3322.3134687500005,"end":3326.7853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3327.3084687500004,"end":3328.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3328.77659375,"end":3334.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3334.9190937500007,"end":3337.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3338.3278437500003,"end":3339.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3339.82971875,"end":3341.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3342.95159375,"end":3373.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3373.57971875,"end":3378.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3378.9122187500006,"end":3390.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3390.8934687500005,"end":3400.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3400.8834687500002,"end":3426.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3426.3984687500006,"end":3429.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3431.71409375,"end":3431.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3431.96721875,"end":3434.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3436.67534375,"end":3442.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3442.9528437500003,"end":3453.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3454.25909375,"end":3463.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3463.86096875,"end":3468.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3468.7547187500004,"end":3469.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3470.7628437500007,"end":3474.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3474.4247187500005,"end":3509.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3510.5203437500004,"end":3593.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3594.3722187500007,"end":3622.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3623.12721875,"end":3624.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3624.52784375,"end":3632.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3632.40846875,"end":3638.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3638.3990937500002,"end":3722.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3722.40284375,"end":3724.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3724.68096875,"end":3732.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3732.4940937500005,"end":3848.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3848.9315937500005,"end":3851.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3851.8172187500004,"end":3852.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3852.7453437500008,"end":3854.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3854.2472187500007,"end":3878.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3878.9015937500008,"end":3883.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3884.9765937500006,"end":3885.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3886.5965937500005,"end":3887.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3891.43971875,"end":3892.5197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3895.5740937500004,"end":3900.4172187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3900.9403437500005,"end":3902.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3903.4209687500006,"end":3908.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3910.00221875,"end":3910.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3910.8965937500006,"end":3914.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3913.5965937500005,"end":3917.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3918.8447187500005,"end":3919.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3920.7178437500006,"end":3923.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3923.9747187500006,"end":3929.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3930.6572187500005,"end":3931.2140937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3933.1715937500003,"end":3933.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3935.2472187500007,"end":3937.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3938.4872187500005,"end":3940.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3941.6259687500005,"end":3942.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3944.1403437500003,"end":3945.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3946.7390937500004,"end":3947.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3948.57846875,"end":3949.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3950.6709687500006,"end":3951.8859687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3952.74659375,"end":3954.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3954.72096875,"end":3954.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3955.7165937500004,"end":3956.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3957.20159375,"end":3957.7922187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3958.39971875,"end":3959.4122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3959.8172187500004,"end":3961.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3961.8084687500004,"end":3962.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3962.6015937500006,"end":3965.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3965.9090937500005,"end":3966.8878437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3967.63034375,"end":3968.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3970.1953437500006,"end":3970.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3971.4609687500006,"end":3972.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3973.1990937500004,"end":3977.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3978.1434687500005,"end":3978.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3979.8815937500003,"end":3983.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3984.2353437500005,"end":3985.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3985.9228437500005,"end":3987.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3988.0828437500004,"end":3989.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3989.3990937500002,"end":3990.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3990.6647187500002,"end":3993.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3994.4615937500002,"end":3996.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3996.80721875,"end":3998.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3998.35971875,"end":4000.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4001.2959687500006,"end":4005.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4006.2234687500004,"end":4007.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4007.7253437500003,"end":4010.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4011.1172187500006,"end":4018.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4019.09909375,"end":4019.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4021.25909375,"end":4021.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4022.1534687500007,"end":4023.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4025.2078437500004,"end":4025.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4027.23284375,"end":4029.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4030.30409375,"end":4033.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4034.35409375,"end":4036.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4036.75034375,"end":4039.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4039.58534375,"end":4041.3234687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4041.8972187500003,"end":4046.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4046.8415937500004,"end":4047.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4048.63034375,"end":4052.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4053.9628437500005,"end":4055.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4056.46034375,"end":4058.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4058.82284375,"end":4059.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4060.2403437500006,"end":4062.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4062.0965937500005,"end":4063.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4063.7165937500004,"end":4068.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4068.3065937500005,"end":4072.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4073.1159687500003,"end":4073.9259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4074.6515937500008,"end":4078.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4078.9040937500004,"end":4080.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4082.2453437500008,"end":4083.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4084.72596875,"end":4085.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4085.33346875,"end":4090.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4092.1847187500007,"end":4095.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4096.116593750001,"end":4096.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4097.702843749999,"end":4099.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4099.626593749999,"end":4105.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4105.51596875,"end":4117.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4118.2059687500005,"end":4123.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4124.044718749999,"end":4128.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4129.815968749999,"end":4138.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4138.0340937500005,"end":4138.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4138.590968750001,"end":4138.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4138.97909375,"end":4139.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4139.08034375,"end":4139.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4139.13096875,"end":4139.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4139.333468750001,"end":4139.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4139.384093750001,"end":4139.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4139.40096875,"end":4140.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4140.24471875,"end":4140.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4140.548468749999,"end":4140.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4140.835343750001,"end":4141.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4141.03784375,"end":4142.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4141.071593750001,"end":4141.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4142.87721875,"end":4143.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4143.029093749999,"end":4148.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4143.045968750001,"end":4143.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4149.795968750001,"end":4150.251593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4150.52159375,"end":4151.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4154.74034375,"end":4157.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4159.60034375,"end":4160.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4161.186593750001,"end":4161.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4161.827843749999,"end":4177.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4163.02596875,"end":4163.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4164.325343750001,"end":4164.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4164.44346875,"end":4164.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4166.468468749999,"end":4166.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4168.544093750001,"end":4171.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4177.99409375,"end":4191.595343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4178.21346875,"end":4178.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4192.962218750001,"end":4192.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4192.9959687499995,"end":4211.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4211.96346875,"end":4222.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4224.0965937500005,"end":4227.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4227.792218750001,"end":4252.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4252.9697187500005,"end":4255.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4255.70346875,"end":4256.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4257.745343750001,"end":4258.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4259.7197187500005,"end":4261.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4261.28909375,"end":4263.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4263.8709687499995,"end":4266.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4267.70159375,"end":4270.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4272.86534375,"end":4274.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4274.434718750001,"end":4277.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4277.72534375,"end":4285.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4285.97721875,"end":4290.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4290.98909375,"end":4294.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4295.17409375,"end":4296.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4296.91221875,"end":4298.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4298.73471875,"end":4302.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4302.85221875,"end":4304.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4305.01221875,"end":4306.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4306.716593749999,"end":4310.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4311.222218749999,"end":4316.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4316.92596875,"end":4322.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4323.034718749999,"end":4328.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4328.53596875,"end":4335.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4336.46721875,"end":4351.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4352.093468749999,"end":4360.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4361.526593750001,"end":4394.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4394.7197187500005,"end":4394.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4394.77034375,"end":4395.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4395.02346875,"end":4400.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4400.03534375,"end":4400.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4400.052218750001,"end":4400.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4400.96346875,"end":4401.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4401.030968749999,"end":4401.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4401.975968750001,"end":4402.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4402.026593750001,"end":4402.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4402.9715937500005,"end":4420.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4420.84221875,"end":4428.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4428.06471875,"end":4429.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4429.46534375,"end":4456.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4457.5790937500005,"end":4464.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4464.61596875,"end":4478.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4478.36909375,"end":4486.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4486.99221875,"end":4500.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4501.251593749999,"end":4504.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4505.36909375,"end":4515.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4516.27034375,"end":4523.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4523.96534375,"end":4525.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4525.28159375,"end":4551.690968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4551.690968749999,"end":4551.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4551.96096875,"end":4585.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4586.048468749999,"end":4604.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4605.80909375,"end":4609.065968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4609.859093749999,"end":4628.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4628.759093750001,"end":4746.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4746.44534375,"end":4754.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4754.562218749999,"end":4766.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4766.12159375,"end":4773.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4775.234093749999,"end":4775.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4776.63471875,"end":4783.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4784.717843750001,"end":4786.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4786.776593750001,"end":4788.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4788.43034375,"end":4790.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4791.0965937500005,"end":4793.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4793.88096875,"end":4799.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4800.42846875,"end":4804.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4804.84971875,"end":4807.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4808.54534375,"end":4811.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4812.07221875,"end":4814.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4814.63721875,"end":4816.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4817.26971875,"end":4831.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4831.7822187500005,"end":4842.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4842.21096875,"end":4843.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4843.29096875,"end":4848.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4849.399718750001,"end":4859.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4860.14909375,"end":4862.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4863.20346875,"end":4868.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4869.1434687500005,"end":4874.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4874.475968750001,"end":4875.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4875.977843750001,"end":4875.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4875.99471875,"end":4876.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4876.60221875,"end":4876.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4876.61909375,"end":4881.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4881.39471875,"end":4882.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4882.03596875,"end":4907.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4907.55096875,"end":4912.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4913.08596875,"end":4915.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4916.055968750001,"end":4917.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4918.0809687500005,"end":4919.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4919.97096875,"end":4926.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4926.974093750001,"end":4935.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4935.02346875,"end":4942.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4942.41471875,"end":4950.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4950.970343749999,"end":4956.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4956.032843749999,"end":4970.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4970.62971875,"end":4977.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4977.39659375,"end":4988.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4989.327218750001,"end":4990.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4990.32284375,"end":4991.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4991.841593749999,"end":5006.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5006.97846875,"end":5007.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5007.029093749999,"end":5007.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5007.974093750001,"end":5008.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5008.024718750001,"end":5008.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5008.9697187500005,"end":5009.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5009.03721875,"end":5009.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5009.96534375,"end":5010.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5010.032843749999,"end":5010.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5010.977843750001,"end":5011.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5011.028468750001,"end":5021.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5022.419093750001,"end":5026.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5027.16096875,"end":5028.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5028.966593749999,"end":5031.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5031.936593750001,"end":5035.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5035.024718750001,"end":5043.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5043.968468749999,"end":5044.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5044.93034375,"end":5044.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5044.964093750001,"end":5045.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5045.520968750001,"end":5053.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5054.68409375,"end":5058.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5058.02534375,"end":5060.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5061.43409375,"end":5066.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5066.88471875,"end":5068.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5069.07846875,"end":5073.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5074.107218749999,"end":5078.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5078.86596875,"end":5078.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5079.557843750001,"end":5082.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5082.780968749999,"end":5083.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5084.21534375,"end":5089.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5089.9697187500005,"end":5090.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5091.420968750001,"end":5096.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5096.02784375,"end":5097.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5097.968468749999,"end":5101.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5101.208468750001,"end":5101.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5101.69784375,"end":5101.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5101.731593750001,"end":5103.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5103.14909375,"end":5103.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5103.419093750001,"end":5104.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5104.65096875,"end":5106.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5106.54096875,"end":5108.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5109.038468750001,"end":5110.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5110.0340937500005,"end":5111.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5113.1053437499995,"end":5115.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5115.974093750001,"end":5117.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5118.01596875,"end":5120.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5120.39534375,"end":5120.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5120.88471875,"end":5120.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5120.901593750001,"end":5124.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5125.913468750001,"end":5128.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5129.11971875,"end":5129.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5130.25034375,"end":5131.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5131.9715937500005,"end":5132.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5132.03909375,"end":5132.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5132.96721875,"end":5135.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5136.966593749999,"end":5138.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5138.02971875,"end":5138.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5139.548468749999,"end":5139.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5139.5653437500005,"end":5141.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5141.944718750001,"end":5149.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5150.2303437499995,"end":5152.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5152.964093750001,"end":5155.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5157.11534375,"end":5158.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5158.026593750001,"end":5158.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5159.1572187500005,"end":5159.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5159.17409375,"end":5160.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5160.608468750001,"end":5160.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5160.62534375,"end":5160.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5160.6590937500005,"end":5160.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5161.030343750001,"end":5162.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5162.02596875,"end":5162.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5162.73471875,"end":5162.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5162.78534375,"end":5165.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5165.249093750001,"end":5165.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5165.68784375,"end":5165.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5165.7215937500005,"end":5166.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5166.970343749999,"end":5174.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5174.88471875,"end":5176.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5176.0322187500005,"end":5177.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5178.1415937500005,"end":5191.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5191.624718749999,"end":5197.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5197.9697187500005,"end":5210.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5211.38534375,"end":5213.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5213.96721875,"end":5229.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5230.4540937500005,"end":5234.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5234.520968750001,"end":5237.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5237.4403437500005,"end":5238.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5238.94221875,"end":5238.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5238.95909375,"end":5238.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5238.975968750001,"end":5238.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5239.5497187500005,"end":5240.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5240.714093750001,"end":5244.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5245.28721875,"end":5246.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5247.37971875,"end":5248.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5248.206593750001,"end":5250.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5250.602843750001,"end":5250.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5251.3622187500005,"end":5252.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5253.083468750001,"end":5253.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5254.12971875,"end":5254.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5254.770968750001,"end":5255.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5255.17596875,"end":5256.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5255.88471875,"end":5257.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5257.55534375,"end":5257.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5263.5965937500005,"end":5264.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5263.61346875,"end":5269.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5270.059718750001,"end":5270.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5272.33784375,"end":5273.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5274.092843750001,"end":5276.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5276.82659375,"end":5279.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5280.690968750001,"end":5282.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5282.39534375,"end":5284.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5285.16284375,"end":5287.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5290.03971875,"end":5290.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5291.423468749999,"end":5292.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5294.12346875,"end":5295.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5295.743468750001,"end":5297.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5298.966593749999,"end":5299.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5300.26596875,"end":5301.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5301.6834687499995,"end":5303.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5304.417218750001,"end":5305.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5307.06659375,"end":5307.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5309.49659375,"end":5311.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5312.567843750001,"end":5315.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5316.702218750001,"end":5317.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5318.001593749999,"end":5319.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5320.61721875,"end":5321.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5321.78159375,"end":5323.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5323.89096875,"end":5324.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5324.903468750001,"end":5325.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5326.2197187500005,"end":5327.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5329.4090937500005,"end":5332.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5334.184718750001,"end":5335.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5335.51784375,"end":5336.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5338.116593750001,"end":5339.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5340.05721875,"end":5342.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5343.58409375,"end":5345.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5346.554093750001,"end":5348.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5349.6590937500005,"end":5350.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5351.68409375,"end":5352.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5353.32096875,"end":5354.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5355.76784375,"end":5357.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5357.421593749999,"end":5359.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5359.767218749999,"end":5361.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5363.17596875,"end":5364.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5365.217843750001,"end":5367.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5368.98096875,"end":5373.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5374.04346875,"end":5374.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5375.78159375,"end":5376.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5376.979718750001,"end":5378.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5378.73471875,"end":5380.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5381.26596875,"end":5383.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5384.843468749999,"end":5385.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5386.56471875,"end":5387.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5389.0115937499995,"end":5390.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5391.01971875,"end":5391.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5392.538468750001,"end":5393.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5394.411593750001,"end":5395.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5396.31846875,"end":5397.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5398.79909375,"end":5399.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5399.895968750001,"end":5400.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5401.262843750001,"end":5403.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5403.70971875,"end":5404.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5405.144093750001,"end":5406.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5406.561593750001,"end":5408.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5409.413468750001,"end":5410.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5411.40471875,"end":5412.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5413.00784375,"end":5414.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5415.10034375,"end":5415.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5416.61909375,"end":5419.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5420.2303437499995,"end":5420.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5422.13721875,"end":5423.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5424.3309687500005,"end":5425.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5425.5965937500005,"end":5426.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5427.06471875,"end":5428.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5429.03909375,"end":5430.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5431.401593750001,"end":5433.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5434.47284375,"end":5435.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5437.814093749999,"end":5439.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5440.09221875,"end":5441.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5441.475968750001,"end":5442.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5442.80909375,"end":5445.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5446.28534375,"end":5447.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5448.05721875,"end":5449.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5449.913468750001,"end":5451.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5452.09034375,"end":5453.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5453.8622187500005,"end":5454.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5454.95909375,"end":5456.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5457.01784375,"end":5457.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5457.794093750001,"end":5458.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5458.89096875,"end":5461.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5461.79346875,"end":5463.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5465.050343750001,"end":5467.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5468.17221875,"end":5469.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5471.02409375,"end":5471.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5472.89721875,"end":5473.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5475.090968750001,"end":5477.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5478.14534375,"end":5479.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5479.84971875,"end":5480.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5480.997218750001,"end":5484.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5484.89534375,"end":5486.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5487.645968750001,"end":5489.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5490.413468750001,"end":5491.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5492.11784375,"end":5493.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5494.17659375,"end":5495.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5496.91034375,"end":5499.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5500.538468750001,"end":5501.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5502.44534375,"end":5503.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5504.53784375,"end":5506.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5506.83284375,"end":5507.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5508.419093750001,"end":5510.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5511.76034375,"end":5515.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5516.755343750001,"end":5517.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5517.464093750001,"end":5519.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5520.5184687500005,"end":5522.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5525.59784375,"end":5527.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5527.92659375,"end":5530.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5531.014718750001,"end":5533.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5533.64721875,"end":5534.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5535.19971875,"end":5535.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5536.161593750001,"end":5538.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5539.31721875,"end":5542.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5542.624718749999,"end":5544.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5545.442843750001,"end":5547.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5547.889718750001,"end":5549.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5550.28596875,"end":5551.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5551.770968750001,"end":5552.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5553.28971875,"end":5553.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5554.302218750001,"end":5555.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5556.29346875,"end":5557.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5557.50846875,"end":5558.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5558.419718749999,"end":5561.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5561.811593750001,"end":5562.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5563.60034375,"end":5563.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5564.342843750001,"end":5565.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5566.772843750001,"end":5568.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5569.8778437500005,"end":5570.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5571.53159375,"end":5573.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5574.265343749999,"end":5577.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5577.85971875,"end":5578.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5579.749718749999,"end":5581.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5582.905343750001,"end":5585.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5586.364718750001,"end":5587.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5587.967843750001,"end":5590.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5590.98846875,"end":5592.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5593.13159375,"end":5594.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5595.173468749999,"end":5597.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5599.03784375,"end":5599.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5601.231593750001,"end":5601.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5602.682843750001,"end":5603.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5604.032843749999,"end":5605.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5605.669718749999,"end":5607.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5609.44971875,"end":5611.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5611.592843750001,"end":5613.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5614.98471875,"end":5617.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5617.85346875,"end":5621.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5622.07221875,"end":5622.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5623.540343750001,"end":5626.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5626.93221875,"end":5628.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5628.467843750001,"end":5628.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5630.425343750001,"end":5633.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5634.6103437500005,"end":5636.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5637.0740937499995,"end":5638.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5639.520968750001,"end":5641.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5643.30096875,"end":5645.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5647.18221875,"end":5650.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5650.94534375,"end":5651.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5652.548468749999,"end":5654.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5655.61971875,"end":5659.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5659.821593750001,"end":5662.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5663.60159375,"end":5664.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5664.85034375,"end":5671.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5665.440968750001,"end":5666.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5671.684718750001,"end":5675.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5671.93784375,"end":5672.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5672.427218750001,"end":5672.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5672.562218749999,"end":5672.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5672.88284375,"end":5673.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5675.515343749999,"end":5675.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5675.565968750001,"end":5676.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5676.645968750001,"end":5677.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5677.13534375,"end":5680.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5680.358468750001,"end":5681.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5682.29909375,"end":5682.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5682.315968750001,"end":5682.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5682.90659375,"end":5682.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5683.311593750001,"end":5684.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5685.404093749999,"end":5687.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5688.4247187500005,"end":5690.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5691.19221875,"end":5692.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5693.4872187500005,"end":5693.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5693.942843750001,"end":5695.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5695.7147187499995,"end":5697.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5697.132218750001,"end":5697.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5699.747843749999,"end":5700.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5700.52409375,"end":5701.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5701.6884687500005,"end":5702.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5702.565968750001,"end":5703.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5703.89909375,"end":5704.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5704.94534375,"end":5706.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5707.392218749999,"end":5707.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5709.2822187500005,"end":5713.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5714.6990937499995,"end":5716.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5717.34846875,"end":5718.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5720.74034375,"end":5722.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5723.5584687499995,"end":5725.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5726.64659375,"end":5727.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5727.979718750001,"end":5728.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5729.515343749999,"end":5731.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5732.434718750001,"end":5734.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5734.22346875,"end":5735.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5736.366593750001,"end":5738.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5739.52221875,"end":5740.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5741.68221875,"end":5743.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5745.175343750001,"end":5745.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5746.55909375,"end":5747.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5747.72346875,"end":5748.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5750.08596875,"end":5751.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5752.347218750001,"end":5755.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5756.380343750001,"end":5758.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5759.654093749999,"end":5762.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5763.14721875,"end":5763.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5764.42971875,"end":5766.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5767.450343750001,"end":5768.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5769.66096875,"end":5771.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5773.60971875,"end":5775.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5776.022843750001,"end":5778.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5779.43159375,"end":5779.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5780.241593750001,"end":5780.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5781.52409375,"end":5786.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5786.4853437500005,"end":5788.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5789.87721875,"end":5791.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5791.7840937500005,"end":5793.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5794.38284375,"end":5795.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5796.0028437500005,"end":5797.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5797.960343750001,"end":5799.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5800.170968750001,"end":5801.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5802.01034375,"end":5802.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5803.74846875,"end":5805.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5805.95909375,"end":5806.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5807.86596875,"end":5808.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5808.96284375,"end":5810.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5812.253468750001,"end":5813.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5813.4853437500005,"end":5814.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5814.497843749999,"end":5815.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5815.84784375,"end":5817.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5818.210343750001,"end":5818.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5818.85159375,"end":5819.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5820.20159375,"end":5821.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5822.513468749999,"end":5824.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5825.6522187499995,"end":5827.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5828.35221875,"end":5829.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5830.866593750001,"end":5834.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5835.169718749999,"end":5838.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5838.1903437500005,"end":5839.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5840.58659375,"end":5841.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5842.61159375,"end":5843.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5843.708468750001,"end":5845.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5845.446593750001,"end":5846.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5846.64471875,"end":5847.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5848.264718750001,"end":5849.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5849.294093750001,"end":5851.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5852.044718749999,"end":5854.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5855.55471875,"end":5856.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5857.22534375,"end":5857.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5858.50784375,"end":5862.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5862.929093750001,"end":5865.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5865.7303437499995,"end":5867.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5868.126593750001,"end":5870.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5870.92784375,"end":5872.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5872.9697187500005,"end":5873.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5874.70784375,"end":5876.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5876.83409375,"end":5878.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5879.432843750001,"end":5881.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5882.35221875,"end":5883.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5883.53346875,"end":5884.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5886.554093750001,"end":5887.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5887.6678437499995,"end":5888.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5889.7772187499995,"end":5891.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5891.565968750001,"end":5892.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5892.62909375,"end":5893.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5894.31659375,"end":5897.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5898.0965937500005,"end":5899.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5899.83471875,"end":5900.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5902.163468750001,"end":5903.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5904.087218750001,"end":5905.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5905.84221875,"end":5907.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5908.440968750001,"end":5912.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5914.04346875,"end":5917.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5917.51971875,"end":5919.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5920.202843749999,"end":5922.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5923.45971875,"end":5924.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5925.40034375,"end":5926.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5927.948468750001,"end":5930.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5931.171593749999,"end":5932.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5933.1122187500005,"end":5934.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5935.98096875,"end":5938.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5939.423468750001,"end":5940.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5940.790343750001,"end":5943.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5943.8447187500005,"end":5946.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5946.780968749999,"end":5950.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5951.40471875,"end":5954.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5953.109093749999,"end":5957.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5955.25221875,"end":6004.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5957.02409375,"end":5957.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5962.27221875,"end":5962.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5962.7615937499995,"end":5962.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5962.778468750001,"end":5962.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5962.79534375,"end":5962.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5982.825968749999,"end":5982.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5982.876593750001,"end":5983.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5983.12971875,"end":5983.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5987.196593750001,"end":5989.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6003.76784375,"end":6032.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6034.5478437500005,"end":6034.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6034.767218750001,"end":6035.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6035.25659375,"end":6038.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6038.41221875,"end":6039.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6039.880343750001,"end":6044.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6044.234093749999,"end":6047.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6048.182843750001,"end":6050.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6050.78159375,"end":6053.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6054.224093750001,"end":6054.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6054.89909375,"end":6057.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6057.76784375,"end":6061.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6061.46346875,"end":6067.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6068.6522187499995,"end":6071.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6071.9090937500005,"end":6073.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6074.17034375,"end":6076.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6077.83221875,"end":6083.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6083.73846875,"end":6084.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6085.56096875,"end":6086.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6087.467843750001,"end":6093.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6094.065968750001,"end":6095.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6096.276593750001,"end":6107.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6108.44346875,"end":6118.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6118.686593750001,"end":6121.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6121.909718750001,"end":6135.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6136.33784375,"end":6139.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6140.16846875,"end":6149.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6150.276593750001,"end":6153.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6154.24221875,"end":6162.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6163.89471875,"end":6174.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6176.280968749999,"end":6251.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6252.184718750001,"end":6265.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6265.70159375,"end":6266.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6266.96721875,"end":6276.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6276.6365937499995,"end":6282.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6282.86346875,"end":6293.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6293.342843750001,"end":6294.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6294.979718750001,"end":6296.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6296.81909375,"end":6300.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6301.965968750001,"end":6310.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6310.825343750001,"end":6317.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6318.419093750001,"end":6323.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6323.21159375,"end":6325.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6325.65846875,"end":6329.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6329.21909375,"end":6331.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6331.80096875,"end":6346.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6346.448468750001,"end":6348.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6348.642218750001,"end":6349.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6349.637843750001,"end":6362.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6362.985968750001,"end":6368.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6368.74034375,"end":6373.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6374.427218750001,"end":6388.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6389.142218750001,"end":6396.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6397.208468750001,"end":6404.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6404.81909375,"end":6407.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6407.4178437499995,"end":6409.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6410.32034375,"end":6411.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6411.839093750001,"end":6413.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6414.269093750001,"end":6416.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6417.57659375,"end":6470.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6471.28971875,"end":6476.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6477.0947187500005,"end":6478.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6478.545968750001,"end":6480.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6481.532843750001,"end":6482.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6483.33846875,"end":6485.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6485.83596875,"end":6492.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6492.872843749999,"end":6497.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6498.07034375,"end":6504.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6504.786593750001,"end":6509.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6509.950343750001,"end":6510.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6511.215968750001,"end":6514.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6515.147843750001,"end":6515.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6516.5653437500005,"end":6518.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6518.387843750001,"end":6527.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6527.73659375,"end":6528.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6528.698468750001,"end":6537.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6537.743468750001,"end":6541.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6542.046593749999,"end":6542.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6542.92409375,"end":6579.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6579.81284375,"end":6580.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6581.44971875,"end":6613.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6613.79909375,"end":6616.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6617.055968750001,"end":6623.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6623.670968750001,"end":6633.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6634.28534375,"end":6643.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6643.43159375,"end":6646.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6650.2997187500005,"end":6653.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6654.450968749999,"end":6658.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6659.091593749999,"end":6670.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6670.482218749999,"end":6676.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6677.2997187500005,"end":6677.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6678.66659375,"end":6681.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6682.0584687499995,"end":6685.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6686.88471875,"end":6687.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6688.437218749999,"end":6689.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6689.888468749999,"end":6692.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6693.280343750001,"end":6695.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6696.43596875,"end":6699.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6701.616593750001,"end":6702.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6703.74284375,"end":6706.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6706.47659375,"end":6707.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6708.48471875,"end":6710.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6710.8134687500005,"end":6714.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6715.3865937499995,"end":6716.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6718.120343750001,"end":6718.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6719.706593750001,"end":6722.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6723.2840937500005,"end":6726.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6727.064093750001,"end":6728.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6728.83596875,"end":6729.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6730.33784375,"end":6733.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6734.32034375,"end":6735.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6736.41284375,"end":6736.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6739.028468750001,"end":6740.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6740.86784375,"end":6752.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6753.72659375,"end":6758.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6759.599093750001,"end":6762.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6763.210343750001,"end":6765.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6765.80909375,"end":6766.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6767.46284375,"end":6768.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6769.94346875,"end":6771.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6772.862843750001,"end":6775.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6776.102843750001,"end":6777.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6778.110968750001,"end":6779.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6780.372218750001,"end":6781.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6781.70534375,"end":6782.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6782.59971875,"end":6783.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6784.10159375,"end":6785.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6786.58221875,"end":6787.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6788.100968750001,"end":6790.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6791.239718750001,"end":6792.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6793.33221875,"end":6797.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6798.411593750001,"end":6800.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6800.35221875,"end":6802.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6803.474093750001,"end":6804.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6805.060343749999,"end":6806.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6807.10221875,"end":6810.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6811.405343750001,"end":6813.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6814.544093750001,"end":6815.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6815.92784375,"end":6817.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6818.054093750001,"end":6826.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6826.60971875,"end":6828.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6828.9384687500005,"end":6830.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6831.77346875,"end":6833.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6834.0009687500005,"end":6837.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6837.44346875,"end":6840.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6841.1053437499995,"end":6843.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6843.61971875,"end":6844.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6845.35784375,"end":6847.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6847.36596875,"end":6849.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6849.72846875,"end":6851.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6851.702843749999,"end":6853.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6854.16659375,"end":6859.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6861.4228437500005,"end":6861.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6862.215968750001,"end":6868.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6864.3759687500005,"end":6868.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6868.66221875,"end":6870.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6871.952843749999,"end":6872.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6873.2353437500005,"end":6874.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6874.399718750001,"end":6876.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6876.407843750001,"end":6877.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6877.960343750001,"end":6878.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6879.327218750001,"end":6882.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6884.40659375,"end":6886.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6887.1572187500005,"end":6887.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6888.33846875,"end":6888.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6888.96284375,"end":6892.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6893.046593749999,"end":6898.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6899.25659375,"end":6900.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6901.214093750001,"end":6903.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6904.302218750001,"end":6904.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6905.382218750001,"end":6907.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6908.1834687499995,"end":6913.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6913.83659375,"end":6914.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6915.28784375,"end":6917.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6917.751593750001,"end":6937.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6937.74846875,"end":6940.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6940.448468750001,"end":6941.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6941.91659375,"end":6942.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6943.485968750001,"end":6944.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6945.00471875,"end":6947.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6948.44721875,"end":6958.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6959.63534375,"end":6960.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6960.58034375,"end":6962.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6962.6053437499995,"end":6964.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6965.187218750001,"end":6980.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6980.847218750001,"end":6981.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6982.163468750001,"end":6982.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6984.23909375,"end":6985.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6986.145968750001,"end":6986.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6987.327218750001,"end":6988.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6988.964093750001,"end":6990.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6990.98909375,"end":6994.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6994.448468750001,"end":6998.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6998.63346875,"end":7003.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7004.16846875,"end":7011.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7012.403468750001,"end":7013.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7017.280343750001,"end":7018.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7019.30534375,"end":7020.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7021.077218750001,"end":7023.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7024.46909375,"end":7025.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7026.3759687500005,"end":7026.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7028.13096875,"end":7028.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7029.464093750001,"end":7032.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7034.08784375,"end":7058.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7058.35409375,"end":7062.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7073.82846875,"end":7074.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7090.80471875,"end":7099.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7099.93409375,"end":7099.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7105.28346875,"end":7105.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7105.722218750001,"end":7105.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7105.97534375,"end":7106.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7113.265343750001,"end":7114.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7116.94409375,"end":7117.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7118.83409375,"end":7133.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7124.048468750001,"end":7124.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7124.706593750001,"end":7126.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7126.61346875,"end":7126.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7129.56659375,"end":7130.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7130.96721875,"end":7131.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7131.54096875,"end":7133.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7133.68409375,"end":7134.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7134.20721875,"end":7134.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7134.274718750001,"end":7134.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7134.71346875,"end":7137.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7137.29534375,"end":7137.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7137.44721875,"end":7138.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7138.03784375,"end":7145.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7141.632218750001,"end":7141.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7141.83471875,"end":7142.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7142.03721875,"end":7142.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7142.948468750001,"end":7143.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7143.454718750001,"end":7143.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7155.06471875,"end":7158.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7158.86159375,"end":7160.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7221.58596875,"end":7222.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7247.55659375,"end":7248.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8507.44409375,"end":8510.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8511.679718750001,"end":8512.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8513.839718750001,"end":8518.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8515.594718750002,"end":8515.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8516.370968750001,"end":8528.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8519.796593750001,"end":8519.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8528.95971875,"end":8535.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8535.827843750001,"end":8548.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8547.25221875,"end":8551.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8552.09534375,"end":8555.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8555.925968750002,"end":8557.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8558.676593750002,"end":8561.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8561.984093750001,"end":8563.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8563.941593750002,"end":8566.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8566.70909375,"end":8569.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8569.67909375,"end":8571.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8571.805343750002,"end":8573.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8573.712218750003,"end":8577.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8578.065968750001,"end":8579.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8579.98971875,"end":8581.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8581.64346875,"end":8584.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8584.90034375,"end":8588.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8589.102218750002,"end":8601.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8601.488468750002,"end":8603.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8603.817218750002,"end":8607.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8607.563468750002,"end":8608.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8609.21721875,"end":8612.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8612.69346875,"end":8621.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8621.60346875,"end":8625.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8625.906593750002,"end":8648.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8648.50221875,"end":8650.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8650.577843750001,"end":8667.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8667.85784375,"end":8678.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8678.792843750001,"end":8680.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8681.222843750002,"end":8694.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8694.65534375,"end":8696.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8696.612843750001,"end":8699.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8700.19034375,"end":8701.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8702.50221875,"end":8704.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8705.40471875,"end":8706.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8706.653468750003,"end":8708.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8710.46721875,"end":8711.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8712.222218750001,"end":8715.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8715.884093750003,"end":8722.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8723.730968750002,"end":8727.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8727.696593750003,"end":8729.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8730.531593750002,"end":8743.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8744.21721875,"end":8747.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8747.575343750003,"end":8759.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8759.40471875,"end":8765.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8766.559718750003,"end":8766.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8767.234718750002,"end":8771.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8771.79096875,"end":8774.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8774.980343750001,"end":8779.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8779.469093750002,"end":8780.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8780.903468750003,"end":8784.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8785.105343750001,"end":8786.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8787.737843750001,"end":8790.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8791.112843750001,"end":8799.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8800.512218750002,"end":8803.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8804.32596875,"end":8810.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8810.738468750002,"end":8835.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8836.18596875,"end":8839.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8839.594718750002,"end":8841.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8841.88971875,"end":8843.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8843.273468750001,"end":8844.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8844.31971875,"end":8846.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8847.40784375,"end":8851.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8852.41971875,"end":8855.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8855.64284375,"end":8857.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8857.97159375,"end":8860.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8860.722218750001,"end":8864.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8865.059093750002,"end":8868.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8868.67034375,"end":8871.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8872.450343750003,"end":8875.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8876.196593750003,"end":8880.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8881.360343750002,"end":8882.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8882.575343750003,"end":8884.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8885.562218750001,"end":8887.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8887.367843750002,"end":8892.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8893.274093750002,"end":8896.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8896.36221875,"end":8898.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8898.488468750002,"end":8903.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8903.51721875,"end":8904.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8904.74909375,"end":8907.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8908.07346875,"end":8911.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8912.17409375,"end":8913.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8914.95846875,"end":8927.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8927.93534375,"end":8928.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8928.45846875,"end":8942.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8943.105968750002,"end":8979.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8980.41659375,"end":9005.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9005.99909375,"end":9010.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9010.403468750003,"end":9115.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9116.09159375,"end":9154.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9154.87034375,"end":9154.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9155.039093750001,"end":9193.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9194.61096875,"end":9233.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9233.305343750002,"end":9237.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9237.405968750001,"end":9241.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9241.675343750001,"end":9244.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9244.98284375,"end":9249.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9249.79221875,"end":9250.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9251.294093750003,"end":9254.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9254.871593750002,"end":9256.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9257.31846875,"end":9260.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9260.81159375,"end":9272.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9273.40034375,"end":9274.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9275.10471875,"end":9275.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9275.965343750002,"end":9277.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9277.922843750002,"end":9280.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9281.11221875,"end":9282.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9283.10346875,"end":9285.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9285.80346875,"end":9287.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9288.31784375,"end":9289.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9289.53284375,"end":9291.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9292.148468750001,"end":9293.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9293.481593750003,"end":9295.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9296.384093750003,"end":9299.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9299.65784375,"end":9300.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9300.737843750001,"end":9302.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9303.57284375,"end":9305.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9306.15471875,"end":9309.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9310.52534375,"end":9312.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9313.12409375,"end":9314.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9314.980343750001,"end":9315.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9315.570968750002,"end":9316.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9316.988468750002,"end":9317.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9318.304718750001,"end":9321.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9321.81471875,"end":9323.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9324.632843750001,"end":9326.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9327.34971875,"end":9328.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9328.868468750003,"end":9330.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9330.92721875,"end":9333.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9333.914093750001,"end":9335.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9335.922218750002,"end":9337.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9339.48284375,"end":9341.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9341.676593750002,"end":9342.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9343.043468750002,"end":9347.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9348.13971875,"end":9351.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9351.430343750002,"end":9355.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9355.36221875,"end":9358.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9358.804718750001,"end":9362.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9362.871593750002,"end":9364.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9364.812218750001,"end":9366.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9367.05659375,"end":9369.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9369.672218750002,"end":9370.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9371.34284375,"end":9373.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9373.620968750001,"end":9375.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9376.01721875,"end":9377.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9377.67096875,"end":9386.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9387.25596875,"end":9388.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9388.335968750001,"end":9391.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9394.680968750003,"end":9400.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9400.890968750002,"end":9403.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9404.13096875,"end":9408.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9409.51409375,"end":9411.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9413.243468750003,"end":9416.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9416.98971875,"end":9419.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9421.12409375,"end":9423.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9424.364093750002,"end":9425.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9426.422843750002,"end":9427.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9427.85721875,"end":9429.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9429.375968750002,"end":9430.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9430.91159375,"end":9432.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9432.97034375,"end":9435.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9435.50159375,"end":9437.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9437.644718750002,"end":9438.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9439.56846875,"end":9440.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9440.51346875,"end":9441.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9442.04909375,"end":9444.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9445.49159375,"end":9447.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9449.035343750002,"end":9451.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9451.212218750003,"end":9453.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9453.86159375,"end":9455.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9455.363468750002,"end":9459.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9460.999718750001,"end":9463.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9464.77971875,"end":9466.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9466.83846875,"end":9467.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9468.37409375,"end":9469.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9470.31471875,"end":9474.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9474.85409375,"end":9478.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9478.769093750001,"end":9480.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9482.059718750003,"end":9484.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9485.164718750002,"end":9486.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9486.902843750002,"end":9487.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9488.92784375,"end":9491.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9492.606593750003,"end":9495.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9496.403468750003,"end":9500.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9502.42784375,"end":9504.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9507.76034375,"end":9510.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9510.848468750002,"end":9514.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9514.965968750003,"end":9517.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9518.070968750002,"end":9521.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9521.699093750001,"end":9523.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9525.040343750003,"end":9528.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9528.43221875,"end":9529.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9529.934093750002,"end":9533.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9533.71409375,"end":9535.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9535.941593750002,"end":9537.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9537.426593750002,"end":9538.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9539.789093750001,"end":9540.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9541.375343750002,"end":9542.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9543.13034375,"end":9544.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9545.695343750001,"end":9547.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9547.754093750002,"end":9549.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9551.027843750002,"end":9552.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9552.58034375,"end":9555.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9555.921593750001,"end":9557.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9557.777843750002,"end":9558.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9559.87034375,"end":9562.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9563.76846875,"end":9567.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9567.97034375,"end":9574.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9575.19284375,"end":9581.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9581.31846875,"end":9581.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9581.706593750001,"end":9582.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9582.972218750001,"end":9584.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9586.02659375,"end":9589.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9593.33346875,"end":9594.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9594.66659375,"end":9595.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9595.44284375,"end":9608.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9609.06096875,"end":9618.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9619.169093750003,"end":9620.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9620.19846875,"end":9623.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9623.809718750003,"end":9627.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9627.57284375,"end":9630.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9631.487843750001,"end":9637.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9638.59221875,"end":9639.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9639.570968750002,"end":9643.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9643.90784375,"end":9648.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9649.324718750002,"end":9650.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9650.894093750001,"end":9653.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9654.015968750002,"end":9654.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9655.56846875,"end":9656.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9657.390968750002,"end":9670.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9671.07659375,"end":9679.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9679.902218750001,"end":9680.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9681.35346875,"end":9684.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9684.559718750003,"end":9688.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9685.36971875,"end":9685.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9688.238468750002,"end":9689.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9688.62659375,"end":9688.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9688.96409375,"end":9689.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9689.031593750002,"end":9689.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9689.21721875,"end":9689.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9689.284718750001,"end":9690.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9690.870968750001,"end":9692.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9690.887843750003,"end":9691.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9692.38971875,"end":9695.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9693.55409375,"end":9694.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9695.460968750001,"end":9699.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9699.899093750002,"end":9703.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9703.628468750001,"end":9710.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9711.390968750002,"end":9712.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9713.04471875,"end":9714.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9715.00221875,"end":9716.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9716.453468750002,"end":9717.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9717.75284375,"end":9719.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9719.879093750002,"end":9724.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9725.24534375,"end":9727.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9727.894718750002,"end":9728.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9728.856593750003,"end":9731.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9732.40034375,"end":9732.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9733.66596875,"end":9735.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9736.21409375,"end":9740.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9740.78721875,"end":9742.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9742.84596875,"end":9748.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9748.769093750001,"end":9750.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9751.43534375,"end":9753.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9754.101593750001,"end":9771.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9772.292843750001,"end":9777.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9778.637843750003,"end":9783.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9784.39221875,"end":9793.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9793.94346875,"end":9804.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9805.587218750003,"end":9810.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9810.531593750002,"end":9817.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9817.855343750001,"end":9826.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9826.680968750003,"end":9828.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9828.97596875,"end":9830.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9830.579093750002,"end":9847.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9848.01096875,"end":9851.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9851.95971875,"end":9853.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9853.96784375,"end":9856.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9856.566593750002,"end":9857.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9857.34284375,"end":9860.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9860.734718750002,"end":9866.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9866.97846875,"end":9871.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9872.00721875,"end":9874.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9874.757843750001,"end":9880.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9881.11971875,"end":9893.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9893.421593750001,"end":9896.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9897.336593750002,"end":9898.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9899.294093750003,"end":9899.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9900.340343750002,"end":9903.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9903.614093750002,"end":9905.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9905.68971875,"end":9906.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9907.27596875,"end":9908.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9908.676593750002,"end":9917.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9918.059093750002,"end":9921.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9922.058468750001,"end":9927.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9927.74534375,"end":9931.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9931.37346875,"end":9936.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9936.58784375,"end":9939.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9939.65909375,"end":9940.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9941.059718750003,"end":9942.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9942.81471875,"end":9945.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9945.09284375,"end":9946.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9946.797218750002,"end":9947.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9948.164093750001,"end":9950.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9950.391593750002,"end":9952.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9953.04096875,"end":9957.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9957.462218750003,"end":9966.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9966.675968750002,"end":9968.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9968.532218750002,"end":9969.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9969.96659375,"end":9972.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9972.88596875,"end":9976.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9976.39596875,"end":9978.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9978.82596875,"end":9980.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9980.648468750001,"end":9982.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9982.69034375,"end":9985.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9986.200343750003,"end":9992.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9993.16971875,"end":10002.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10003.919093750003,"end":10034.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10034.665343750003,"end":10039.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10040.925968750002,"end":10087.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10087.905968750001,"end":10094.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10095.33096875,"end":10095.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10097.38971875,"end":10097.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10099.937843750002,"end":10106.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10107.81846875,"end":10109.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10109.860343750002,"end":10111.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10112.77971875,"end":10114.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10115.378468750001,"end":10123.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10124.305343750002,"end":10125.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10126.39784375,"end":10128.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10128.76034375,"end":10129.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10130.39721875,"end":10132.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10132.641593750002,"end":10133.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10134.61596875,"end":10137.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10138.29471875,"end":10138.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10139.72909375,"end":10144.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10145.331593750001,"end":10146.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10147.79534375,"end":10148.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10149.58409375,"end":10150.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10158.22409375,"end":10160.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10160.23221875,"end":10164.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10164.97409375,"end":10171.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10172.297843750002,"end":10180.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10180.65096875,"end":10186.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10187.67096875,"end":10188.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10188.480968750002,"end":10207.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10207.769093750001,"end":10212.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10213.91159375,"end":10214.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10215.07596875,"end":10219.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10220.644718750002,"end":10230.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10231.07346875,"end":10237.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10237.95846875,"end":10240.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10241.08034375,"end":10241.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10241.99159375,"end":10249.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10249.433468750001,"end":10251.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10251.492218750001,"end":10252.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10253.348468750002,"end":10253.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10253.93909375,"end":10268.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10269.39659375,"end":10279.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10279.99409375,"end":10290.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10290.895343750002,"end":10297.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10298.15159375,"end":10302.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10302.47159375,"end":10306.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10306.57221875,"end":10308.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10308.79971875,"end":10320.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10320.949718750002,"end":10336.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10336.57596875,"end":10362.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10362.52971875,"end":10363.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10364.43659375,"end":10388.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10388.26409375,"end":10390.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10390.69409375,"end":10394.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10395.098468750002,"end":10396.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10396.465343750002,"end":10398.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10399.300343750001,"end":10402.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10402.75971875,"end":10408.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10408.851593750001,"end":10410.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10410.87659375,"end":10415.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10415.41596875,"end":10438.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10439.226593750001,"end":10447.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10448.946593750003,"end":10449.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10450.60034375,"end":10455.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10456.101593750001,"end":10476.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10477.11096875,"end":10480.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10480.60409375,"end":10502.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10502.42346875,"end":10523.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10523.73659375,"end":10536.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10537.40534375,"end":10541.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10542.40034375,"end":10545.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10545.89346875,"end":10551.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10552.356593750003,"end":10554.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10555.039718750002,"end":10557.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10558.48221875,"end":10566.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10567.172843750002,"end":10577.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10577.871593750002,"end":10581.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10582.27596875,"end":10584.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10585.667843750001,"end":10587.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10587.996593750002,"end":10588.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10588.03034375,"end":10589.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10588.148468750001,"end":10589.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10589.414093750001,"end":10590.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10590.86534375,"end":10594.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10595.18534375,"end":10612.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10612.87034375,"end":10657.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10655.175968750002,"end":10655.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10655.969093750002,"end":10662.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10659.917843750001,"end":10693.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10692.722843750002,"end":10692.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10693.02659375,"end":10693.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10693.11096875,"end":10693.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10693.161593750003,"end":10693.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10693.566593750002,"end":10693.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10693.97159375,"end":10694.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10694.005343750003,"end":10694.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10699.219718750002,"end":10704.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10704.94034375,"end":10707.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10707.285968750002,"end":10708.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10709.024093750002,"end":10713.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10714.20471875,"end":10716.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10716.43221875,"end":10716.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10717.242218750001,"end":10721.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10722.38909375,"end":10726.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10726.692218750002,"end":10727.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10727.56971875,"end":10728.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10728.599093750003,"end":10733.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10733.72909375,"end":10736.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10737.35721875,"end":10738.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10739.331593750001,"end":10741.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10741.609718750002,"end":10743.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10743.33096875,"end":10744.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10745.676593750002,"end":10746.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10746.672218750002,"end":10748.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10748.71409375,"end":10750.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10751.44784375,"end":10752.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10754.063468750002,"end":10756.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10756.34159375,"end":10758.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10761.134093750003,"end":10762.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10764.25596875,"end":10766.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10767.31034375,"end":10768.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10769.352218750002,"end":10770.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10771.765343750001,"end":10773.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10774.75221875,"end":10778.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10779.08909375,"end":10780.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10781.56971875,"end":10783.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10784.539718750002,"end":10788.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10789.78784375,"end":10793.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10794.495968750001,"end":10800.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10800.992843750002,"end":10804.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10804.60409375,"end":10809.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10810.206593750001,"end":10810.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10811.13471875,"end":10813.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10813.868468750003,"end":10817.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10818.390968750002,"end":10820.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10820.297843750002,"end":10821.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10822.22159375,"end":10823.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10824.33096875,"end":10826.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10831.637843750003,"end":10833.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10835.87346875,"end":10837.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10835.97471875,"end":10836.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10837.03784375,"end":10837.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10837.45971875,"end":10837.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10838.894093750001,"end":10839.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10840.547843750002,"end":10841.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10842.15096875,"end":10880.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10880.91284375,"end":10882.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10882.97159375,"end":10883.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10883.410343750002,"end":10946.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10947.585968750001,"end":10954.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10955.53409375,"end":10961.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10961.74409375,"end":10994.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10994.565968750001,"end":10994.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10995.730343750001,"end":11000.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11000.25284375,"end":11001.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11001.82221875,"end":11044.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11045.96721875,"end":11046.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11047.77284375,"end":11055.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11055.94034375,"end":11058.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11058.910343750002,"end":11063.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11063.348468750002,"end":11063.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11063.43284375,"end":11064.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11063.550968750002,"end":11065.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11065.862843750001,"end":11067.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11066.149718750003,"end":11066.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11067.85409375,"end":11072.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11069.052218750003,"end":11069.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11072.54534375,"end":11154.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11154.60846875,"end":11155.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11155.570343750001,"end":11156.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11157.308468750001,"end":11191.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11191.530968750001,"end":11245.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11245.98659375,"end":11251.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11253.394718750002,"end":11254.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11255.79096875,"end":11256.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11256.516593750002,"end":11259.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11259.21659375,"end":11260.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11260.65096875,"end":11260.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11261.140343750001,"end":11262.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11263.18221875,"end":11264.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11265.477218750002,"end":11266.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11267.434718750003,"end":11268.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11269.13909375,"end":11271.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11271.41721875,"end":11274.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11275.61909375,"end":11278.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11278.926593750002,"end":11280.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11281.54221875,"end":11282.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11283.195968750002,"end":11283.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11283.297218750002,"end":11283.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11283.31409375,"end":11283.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11283.43221875,"end":11283.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11283.550343750001,"end":11286.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11283.617843750002,"end":11285.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11286.621593750002,"end":11286.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11286.891593750002,"end":11286.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11287.80284375,"end":11289.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11287.836593750002,"end":11291.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11290.08096875,"end":11296.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11296.66221875,"end":11301.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11301.606593750003,"end":11316.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11306.11221875,"end":11309.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11316.844718750002,"end":11317.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11318.110343750002,"end":11320.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11320.87784375,"end":11322.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11322.41346875,"end":11337.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11338.05659375,"end":11339.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11340.06471875,"end":11348.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11349.632843750001,"end":11350.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11352.434093750002,"end":11352.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11353.66596875,"end":11354.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11355.03284375,"end":11355.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11355.977843750003,"end":11356.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11357.47971875,"end":11365.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11365.394093750001,"end":11368.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11368.988468750002,"end":11378.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11380.93596875,"end":11381.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11381.93159375,"end":11385.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11386.94346875,"end":11389.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11390.33534375,"end":11392.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11392.90034375,"end":11393.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11394.047843750002,"end":11395.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11396.140343750001,"end":11396.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11398.70534375,"end":11409.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11410.21409375,"end":11410.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11412.05346875,"end":11412.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11413.302218750003,"end":11439.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11439.964718750001,"end":11444.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11445.077843750001,"end":11449.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11450.24159375,"end":11452.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11452.48596875,"end":11458.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11458.61159375,"end":11491.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11491.770968750003,"end":11502.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11495.500343750002,"end":11497.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11498.11596875,"end":11526.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11504.629718750002,"end":11504.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11526.58409375,"end":11526.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11526.837218750003,"end":11531.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11530.836593750002,"end":11532.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11533.317218750002,"end":11538.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11539.054718750001,"end":11546.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11542.598468750002,"end":11542.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11542.98659375,"end":11543.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11543.222843750002,"end":11543.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11543.594093750002,"end":11543.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11543.62784375,"end":11544.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11545.079093750002,"end":11545.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11546.78346875,"end":11549.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11549.21346875,"end":11549.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11550.22596875,"end":11550.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11552.58846875,"end":11577.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11553.06096875,"end":11557.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11557.887218750002,"end":11559.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11570.442218750002,"end":11572.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11577.968468750001,"end":11580.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11581.05659375,"end":11581.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11582.27159375,"end":11583.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11584.212218750003,"end":11584.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11584.97159375,"end":11586.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11588.414093750001,"end":11594.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11594.18534375,"end":11594.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11594.320343750001,"end":11598.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11598.35346875,"end":11598.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11598.758468750002,"end":11599.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11599.56846875,"end":11603.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11604.242843750002,"end":11606.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11607.11159375,"end":11608.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11608.95096875,"end":11611.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11612.477843750003,"end":11613.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11614.45221875,"end":11616.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11617.08471875,"end":11618.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11619.14346875,"end":11621.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11622.484718750002,"end":11625.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11625.82596875,"end":11629.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11629.74096875,"end":11632.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11632.79534375,"end":11635.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11635.91721875,"end":11638.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11639.410343750002,"end":11643.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11645.114093750002,"end":11648.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11648.97846875,"end":11659.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11659.94721875,"end":11670.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11670.39284375,"end":11671.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11671.472843750002,"end":11672.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11672.97471875,"end":11673.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11673.91971875,"end":11675.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12032.378468750001,"end":12038.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12039.499718750001,"end":12050.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12050.67096875,"end":12051.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12052.375343750002,"end":12055.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12055.699718750002,"end":12057.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12058.433468750001,"end":12059.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12060.239093750002,"end":12060.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12061.62284375,"end":12062.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12063.040343750003,"end":12065.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12067.259093750003,"end":12072.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12074.44784375,"end":12075.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12080.370968750001,"end":12082.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12082.969718750002,"end":12083.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12083.273468750001,"end":12094.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12094.91721875,"end":12095.79471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1819.51,"end":1821.112,"text":"我懂我懂我懂 不敢不敢"},{"start":1831.462,"end":1859.603,"text":"好謝謝那個國民黨團的副總召請假副總召也生病了那民進黨的柯總召也幹事長那民進黨的柯總召也是那兩位總召都身體不舒服啊OK那臺灣民眾黨的黃總召身體怎麼樣"},{"start":1867.738,"end":1885.322,"text":"黃總召,現在兩位總召身體都不舒服,今天都請了病假了,現在就您了。謝謝各位黨團幹部列席,謝謝啊,謝謝,謝謝。謝謝我們組織長還有行政部門的列席,也謝謝各位新聞界的好朋友,謝謝大家。那我們現在正式開始進行我們的查理協商會議,謝謝大家,謝謝,謝謝。"},{"start":1897.113,"end":1917.668,"text":"我們今天列席向各位黨團報告今天列席的有行政院陳主席長我們熱情歡迎我們財政部的阮次長熱情歡迎經濟部的何次長熱情歡迎好謝謝各位黨團幹部各位新聞界好朋友謝謝請大家謝謝"},{"start":1933.462,"end":1956.145,"text":"各黨代表我們繼續研商有關、「114年度中央政府總預算．含附屬單位預算及綜計表．營業及非營業部分．及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案．及113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案．民進黨黨團提議．二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":1957.546,"end":1977.421,"text":"那我們首先上一次我們參與協商結束的時候有請我們主計長跟各黨團來溝通以及還有幾天的時間能夠來跟行政院各方面各單位來溝通我們先請陳主計長來報告一下目前溝通以及研商的情形請陳主計長發言"},{"start":1980.759,"end":1997.012,"text":"謝謝院長還有各黨團的一個委員還有我們同仁大家午安那我主要是要針對就是說我是針對就是說我們第一個一個行政院的一個立場還有一個就是整個將來一個裁員的一個操作的一個方法"},{"start":1998.513,"end":2024.514,"text":"這個一個編列的現在有所爭議主要是因為依照我們憲法第70條還有預算法第91條還有財政紀律法還有財政收支法等相關的一個規定那就是所提的一個法律案大幅增加支出或減少稅務的部分要先徵詢行政機關的一個意見還有要指明相關一個資金的一個來源那因為這個程序上這個部分"},{"start":2025.374,"end":2026.815,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":2042.766,"end":2060.86,"text":"原住民的一個綜合發展基金裡面先行來支應那後續年度我們再來做一個補足那再來在針對所謂的健保點值的一個部分那健保點值目前我們為了改善健保的一個財務狀況在114年度我們已經有依註健保基金336億那原來就是等於說其中有"},{"start":2068.146,"end":2071.769,"text":"建保支出的項目181億已經於公務負擔另外又增預建保基金155億建保總合依照比例提升之後﹐也可以增加500多億總共合起來增加700多億"},{"start":2084.841,"end":2113.987,"text":"這個你如果說要用健保點子健保點子是要視你的服務量整個服務量事後來看然後再去處有的醫院他服務是太多然後這個部分是怎麼樣去調整這個部分因為我們整個健保制度是採總額制並不是點子制所以這個部分還是必須要衛福部他透過整個一個落實分級醫療的配套機制逐步達到穩定醫療服務點子的一個目標"},{"start":2114.967,"end":2120.352,"text":"公糧收購方案（經過農業部審慎評估和跟產業溝通（還是認為一級二轉三加三的策略（推行三年以後（提升公糧的價格（這個部分有納兵預算（建請教會審查後（由農業部做政策的說明（以上一個補充"},{"start":2141.882,"end":2152.053,"text":"謝謝陳主席長的發言接下來針對陳主席長的發言各黨團有沒有幹部有沒有寶貴意見要提出好 我們首先請國民黨團林思明書記長請發言是 謝謝院長"},{"start":2155.73,"end":2181.681,"text":"委員長我想今天聽主席長該的發言我們很遺憾對於原住民進法補償這一部分主席長還是堅持說要在原住民族發展基金裡面去做撥補我想我們一再強調行政院要依法行政因為這筆錢如果你是用原住民族的綜合發展基金裡面去撥補這個就沒有合法就不合法不合規嘛"},{"start":2182.662,"end":2191.049,"text":"所以為什麼我們就是真的是不理解為什麼行政院到現在還一直堅持說要在這個基金裡面去做撥補"},{"start":2192.642,"end":2220.432,"text":"那我們一直強調你依法編列這不是難事啊你就把總預算做相關的一個預算的一個調整做追加嘛這是最簡單的一個方式就是說法律案已經通過了你如果是用基金的方式來做撥補的話那你明年呢你說你明年說你把這個錢再用撥補的方式去撥補到我們的綜合販機但明年後年呢你不做呢"},{"start":2221.482,"end":2221.762,"text":"國民黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":2239.705,"end":2255.284,"text":"所以我們堅持我們認為這樣的一個做法在不合法的一個情況之下我想我們真的很難接受那我再講一下請問一下我想這一次總預算今天我們真的是希望行政院能夠有善意的回應所以聽到今天這樣的一個結果我們真的很遺憾"},{"start":2259.708,"end":2286.122,"text":"我們也看到今天民進黨似乎對明天我們在星期二的時候有做程序委員會我們已經釋出很大的善意我們希望在明天的這個院會能夠把這件事情解決但是我們看到民進黨今天在我們的議場在排隊我們不曉得排隊是明天他們是要做什麼事情是不是要干擾議事的進行"},{"start":2287.256,"end":2309.561,"text":"如果是真的要善意的話大家一定要互相的釋出善意如果明天你們企圖霸占主席台來干擾議事的進行我們真的看不到我們的執政黨有任何的善意所以是誰在阻擋我們預算的審查我要請國人要看清楚了以上 謝謝好 謝謝林世民書記長的發言我們請吳世堯幹事長請發言台灣民眾黨請準備"},{"start":2317.233,"end":2330.528,"text":"謝謝院長、謝謝各黨團的朋友今天第三次我們坐下來好好磋商總預算是不是能夠順利來交付審查這是第三次院長召集的朝野協商我想大家時間都很寶貴"},{"start":2332.29,"end":2346.929,"text":"那對於整個國家社會來講．更寶貴的是國家的進步．跟人民的福祉今天的協商我們希望聚焦在總預算交付協商審查的這一個重要議案"},{"start":2348.283,"end":2360.276,"text":"所以讓總預算能夠順利排入明天的議程這是我們最希望能夠來進行的那我優先先回答一下林思明書記長所說的民進黨團那今天在議場外去排隊"},{"start":2366.394,"end":2372.717,"text":"好那大家我也清楚在這個地方跟大家說明正因為過去發生過幾次已經程序委員會因為沒有排定院會的議程所以說明天的議程未定的狀況之下總預算能不能夠順利被排案還不要說排案之後表決能不能通過"},{"start":2388.806,"end":2388.846,"text":"民進黨黨團提議））"},{"start":2419.647,"end":2433.816,"text":"民進黨團同仁在現場開始希望能夠做這些預先的部署但是當然另外我們也比較擔憂一點就是今天看到院長除了總預算的協商還排了選罷法的協商"},{"start":2438.276,"end":2450.935,"text":"這就是昨天讓整個黨團的同仁也讓社會包括很多跑國會新聞多年的媒體大家都在問一個問題選罷法不是要先由黨團協商由"},{"start":2453.53,"end":2478.511,"text":"國民黨來召集嗎因為上一次應當也是上週針對第一次總預算協商的時候當時韓院長就已經把未經黨團協商的選罷法放到議程了所以在上週的協商經由本黨表達異議認為這樣不符程序不可以為了選罷法再一次閹割了程序正義應當由提案委員就近乎二讀的議案該黨團來主持協商"},{"start":2482.774,"end":2505.131,"text":"所以也終於獲得讓選罷法回到應當有的議事規則那就是昨天由林思敏委員於昨天下午的4點半召開選罷法的協商可是很奇怪咯協商還沒開始還沒進行昨天中午我們就收到韓院長今天又把選罷法列到今天朝野協商的議程"},{"start":2506.537,"end":2531.153,"text":"所以我們當然擔憂說那國民黨的朋友們是不是又把協商當過水非常遺憾昨天下午4點半到6點的協商就驗證了主席主持的司民委員確實就是把協商當過水了所以我希望院長我們今天就程序"},{"start":2532.423,"end":2550.555,"text":"我們就讓總預算成為今天開會的優先事由讓總預算的問題能夠被解決大家智慧的提出解方有總預算才有其他的事項的爭取如果總預算連續在明天第六檔了"},{"start":2551.983,"end":2562.931,"text":"黨的六次關乎民生的總預算沒有辦法審查進入程序卻又排上了要阻卻民權、沒收民權的選罷法那社會沒有辦法接受"},{"start":2563.919,"end":2589.228,"text":"所以我們希望今天在程序上優先進行總預算大家提出解方建設性的來談話至於選罷法我是呼籲也請求院長昨天的協商是過水希望今天韓院長的協商不應當再把它作為一個過水以利於明天強行在院會表決我想這個不是回應社會一個好的方式那回到今天總預算的這個議程裡頭呢"},{"start":2591.149,"end":2608.926,"text":"我再一次說依法行政四個字不是只要求行政部門立法部門我們也是廣義的公務團隊我們也需要依法行政國家的法只有一套從憲法到預算法到財政紀律法到"},{"start":2609.667,"end":2610.047,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":2630.228,"end":2649.319,"text":"其他的議案回到各該委員會（讓各該委員會進行委員會中心主義（這些委員更專業（更了解各該政策（回到應當有的場域去做應當有的討論（而今天在院長層級的朝野協商（我們就具體針對總預算的後續（必須排時程由院長來報告（"},{"start":2655.922,"end":2678.521,"text":"而我們這一次要處理的還有四個預算案四個預算案都把報告的期程排出來然後包括審查的時程一併排出來讓立法院的意識回到正軌讓審預算的程序回到應當有的程序這是民進黨團今天的目標"},{"start":2680.983,"end":2696.096,"text":"計法補償,我是希望我第一輪,我不想再針對這個內容去做太多的著墨因為我希望主席可以發揮您的協助,讓總預算交付審查是優先"},{"start":2697.057,"end":2718.844,"text":"原名的預算回到內政委員會但如果稍後還是在黨的黨團的同仁們還是想對進法補償進一步討論那那個部分實質的意見我會再來發表但是回到一個同樣依法行政我們只有同一套法制在法治國家臺灣同樣要求行政部門也要求立法部門報告完畢"},{"start":2720.684,"end":2743.825,"text":"謝謝吳世耀幹事長的發言在臺灣民眾黨發言之前我想特別介紹今天在我們立法院外有很多民眾來立法院來陳情表達意見我們願今天開潮以前的多位原住民立委也一起來參與我特別要介紹讓大家都知道在我左手邊我們盧憲英委員我們高金素美委員鄭天才委員右手邊吳立華委員陳英委員大家都非常的關切"},{"start":2745.606,"end":2751.518,"text":"大家、全國的觀眾、全國的朋友來報告一下原住民立委今天都非常非常關心這個案子我們現在請台灣民進黨發言,請"},{"start":2756.176,"end":2783.112,"text":"當然謝謝院長先針對於我們今天協商的第一個主題其他沒有必要的話我在我的第一輪發言還是遵守我之前所講的原則我不希望整個協商的現場變成的是炮火失色的政治工坊沒有意義針對主題來進行發言就好了我一開始發言我還是希望遵守這個原則"},{"start":2784.513,"end":2788.798,"text":"等下如果有溢出這個原則範圍之外的第二輪發言再來做處理"},{"start":2790.557,"end":2814.104,"text":"剛剛聽到我們的主席長對於原住民進法補償的說明我想台灣民眾黨團的立場非常清楚台灣是一個法治國家針對原住民他們在保留地所做的特別犧牲國家依法予以補償這個是在落實憲法對於每一個人基本權利的保障"},{"start":2815.344,"end":2833.955,"text":"立法與補償是立法機關在踐行我們對於受有特別犧牲的原住民本來就應該要做的事情而且用法律來與民定也因此依照立法院三讀通過的法律"},{"start":2835.526,"end":2854.471,"text":"原住民的保留地依法可以請求給付的公法上請求權本來就是一公頃6萬元現在白紙黑字是有效生效的法律我想這一點無庸置疑第三個部分我們當初"},{"start":2856.604,"end":2883.469,"text":"在面對總預算的時候我們為什麼這麼堅持要求行政部門要把話說清楚因為我們接下來未來等到預算負為審查了以後請由我再強調一次立法委員只能夠刪減只能夠凍結不能夠增加不能夠增加在預算審查的過程當中"},{"start":2884.449,"end":2906.398,"text":"因此當我們在預算書上面看不到財源的時候我們就會非常的關心說那行政院你把錢編在哪裡你沒有編經費的這個瑕疵無論如何是不可能透過事後的預算審議來治癒這個瑕疵的那今天主計長終於說的"},{"start":2910.512,"end":2929.648,"text":"看起來比較清楚一點但我等一下有兩點困惑可能要請行政部門先表達一下他們的立場因為總是要跟大家解惑把事情說清楚、講明白剛剛我們主計長的說法是"},{"start":2930.569,"end":2954.393,"text":"明年一公頃6萬元4萬由公務預算支出那2萬由原住民族綜合發展經濟支出我剛聽起來應該是沒有誤會主計長的意思但我只有一點困惑那個困惑是說原住民族綜合發展基金可不可以拿來發進法補償"},{"start":2959.659,"end":2980.287,"text":"原住民族發展基金可不可以拿來發進法補償這個是我的困惑因為之前在討論相關議案的時候可能等一下可以請比較熟悉這個議題的原民委員再幫我們做補充說明因為我上一次在協商的時候那也非常感謝鄭天才政委員有提供"},{"start":2981.147,"end":3009.746,"text":"我們立法院在2018年的時候我們有做的一個決議那這個決議就是說原住民族綜合發展基金你把它用在禁法賭場是違法的那這個法制上面的疑義目前行政院是不是理一清了這個也有關於我們在協商的第一個課題到底是不是可以順利的能夠獲得解決"},{"start":3011.307,"end":3039.037,"text":"那還是說目前行政院的立場是說違法沒有關係我反正先發違法沒有關係我反正先發人民拿到錢最重要未來再來做調整是不是有這樣的立場恐怕要請行政院先說清楚講明白那第二個行政院明年發一公頃六萬元有沒有附帶條件"},{"start":3040.95,"end":3066.464,"text":"有沒有附帶條件因為我上次協商的時候我必須要再說一次我非常驚訝的聽到有個附帶條件說要我們同意明年要修到卓榮泰的一公頃4萬元這個條件到目前為止存在還是不存在可能也請我們的行政部門能夠先表明因為這個比較攸關於說我們等一下在討論的時候是不是"},{"start":3067.622,"end":3087.674,"text":"不管是我們原住民的朋友還是其他應該要編的預算是不是有編足那我們可以順利的交給委員會審查一個蠻重要的關鍵那其他的話我都先不說我先針對總預算的這個部門來請教一下我們的行政部門"},{"start":3089.864,"end":3110.418,"text":"那麻煩陳主席長,針對剛才三位黨團所發言的部分,您先做一下解釋好不好?先做一下說明。那接下來,我們主席長請先說明一下好嗎?原住民發展基金能不能夠"},{"start":3111.812,"end":3134.923,"text":"因為以原住民發展基金第21條裏面他有規定這個部分就是說他應該要提撥一定的比例納入原住民綜合發展基金作為回饋和補償的一個經費所以他在21條的原住民的一個基本法裏面他就規定到支出然後他18條裏面就是規定到收入他就是相關的收入作為裁員"},{"start":3136.143,"end":3160.974,"text":"這個部分以往執行的時候（也都是由公戶撥到基金去執行（所以我們每一年都是撥（像今年28億也是會有公戶（撥到基金28億（所以基金裡面今年也有編28億的支出（只是說這個如果不足的部分（我們由基金的財源先行去支應（支應的結果不足（我們在以後年度來撥補（撥補給它不足的部分（以上說明"},{"start":3165.543,"end":3182.151,"text":"那各位黨團幹部我們剛剛主席講說明就是原住民基金所播放是合法的完全合乎規定那蔡議員你稍微等一下第一輪黨團幹部都發言完今天五位原住民委員還有我們雲林縣的張家俊委員都在現場我想原住民委員一定有很多話想說那"},{"start":3183.251,"end":3203.185,"text":"容許我來掌控一下這個議程就是我們三個黨團做二輪發言之後原住民委員請準備發言原住民委員發言的時候我們先讓黨團幹部與我們草野協商先讓黨團二輪發言請原住民委員五位委員稍微準備一下好 你們等一下要發言好 請蔡義雲幹事長 謝謝請蘇紀長蘇紀長不好意思院長"},{"start":3210.851,"end":3231.262,"text":"那我想剛剛聽了三個黨團的第一輪發言那我想首先有一個重點就是說臺灣是法治國家這個法治的精神並不是只有行政要依法行政我們立法也是必須要依法"},{"start":3232.382,"end":3246.83,"text":"來立我們的法律既然預算法、財政紀律法以及相關的一些法律都有規定符合財政紀律的前提之下"},{"start":3248.936,"end":3273.489,"text":"立法才能去做相關法令的一個訂定所以事實上這就很清楚就是說我們在講的就是說我們今年度如果公務預算是用4萬元剩下的2萬元的部分讓行政機關未來去尋找裁員那剛剛討論的裁員有可能是從基金來作為補充"},{"start":3276.755,"end":3294.34,"text":"那這個是一個行政機關現階段在協商的時候也是經過院長你多次主持那我們執政黨一樣是有誠意要來解決問題我們希望總預算可以趕快赴為審查的前提之下"},{"start":3295.16,"end":3311.705,"text":"那大概也有去說如果真的今年6萬要上路的話他的裁員是怎樣那這是在協商的過程但是大家不要忘記了在於這個法定例的當下基本上一直存在著"},{"start":3312.285,"end":3341.523,"text":"因為財政紀律法第5條、第7條的規定我們這樣的立法下去有違反了財政紀律的前提之下所以我們才會希望說我們今天的協商並不是單單這講進法補償明年度的問題我們希望讓它法治化所以我們希望有一個前提就是說我們再來補足補正當時在立法的瑕疵"},{"start":3343.742,"end":3365.316,"text":"當時的立法就是因為行政機關並沒有同意到6萬他當時同意是4萬那除了同意之外當時也並沒有說明彌補這一個預算的一個裁員就是說在當時這些瑕疵都存在那既然我們大家也都有看到這些瑕疵我們不能漠視它所以我們希望"},{"start":3366.016,"end":3389.569,"text":"三個黨團可以一起來補正這樣的一個瑕疵這是第一個那第二個 院長不好意思我再說明一下如果依照原住民基本法第18條那關於原住民的土地的賠償補償及收益款相關法令規定的撥款及其他收入是可以用原住民的綜合發展基金來支付的"},{"start":3390.134,"end":3412.728,"text":"那這一個情況在105年、106年一直到112年都一直有用基金來做撥付的一個狀況那基金在撥付的狀況也不是只有在民進黨執政的時候有用基金撥付相對的在過去國民黨執政的時候還是有一樣的狀況所以並不能說過去"},{"start":3415.209,"end":3429.525,"text":"再用基金的補充．大家都說那個情況都不要去談現在這個主席長談到了用基金來做補充那大家都說這個是不合法的我想這個相對是我們比較不能接受的好 謝謝好 謝謝采宇現在接下來請國民黨團二人發言"},{"start":3437.442,"end":3452.322,"text":"主席、各政黨代表、原住民立委們主席、各政黨代表、原住民立委們現在看起來行政院仍然不採取"},{"start":3454.81,"end":3455.531,"text":"一、重編預算．一、重編預算．一、重編預算．一、重編預算．"},{"start":3471.112,"end":3490.14,"text":"採用綜合發展基金到底有沒有違法的問題到底有沒有排擠我們原民在其他的包含他們的貸款包含他們的住宅修繕補助等等之類都是在綜合發展基金支應而一直在用綜合發展基金支應已經使得原來的百億的一個資產的淨值現在都變成負的"},{"start":3496.203,"end":3496.503,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3517.814,"end":3542.309,"text":"但是我們現在所面臨的就是我們現在的原民計法補償條例它就是法律啊所以我覺得非常奇怪第一個難道我們今天可以完全否定我們立法院所通過總統公告實施的這個不叫做法律嗎難道所謂法律的定義是由行政院說了算或者民進黨團說了算嗎"},{"start":3545.311,"end":3562.796,"text":"所以我們在這邊以國民黨團還是希望以循正常的預算程序正常預算程序就是你今年可以重編預算我們今年的新增的稅出高達2800億而這2800億的這個稅出裡面很多根本不是法定預算支出比如說最近還有提到我們編了好幾百億的"},{"start":3575.18,"end":3575.46,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":3594.429,"end":3596.95,"text":"調整、讓法定預算（能夠得到充分的依法編列（無論如何是說不過去的第二點,剛才我也聽到主計長（談到有關健保點值的部分（我不再贅述（他剛才講說有益住多少、健保總額多少等等（"},{"start":3623.237,"end":3637.352,"text":"但是在上個會期我們在朝野協商的時候行政部門也在場當時的行政部門因為當時是希望能夠提高到一塊錢"},{"start":3638.573,"end":3640.034,"text":"那麼行政部門覺得這一塊錢會造成支出是沒有辦法支應所以在經過協商的時候這個主決議不只是朝野政黨的簽字還有行政部門的認可啊他們也認可說在這樣的一個0.95是行政部門可以接受的"},{"start":3666.169,"end":3668.13,"text":"因為當時就是把健保點值提高到一那其他部門說這個金額太大他們難以支應等等所以當時也是協商的你不能說現在又完全不認帳了吧對不對另外公糧收購也是如此"},{"start":3683.835,"end":3693.948,"text":"所以我想今天其實今天天氣非常不好但是呢在外面我們也看到有來自於就是我們的原民朋友、農民朋友還有我們的醫護人員的朋友大家都很關心我們這一場的這個朝野協商"},{"start":3703.98,"end":3718.929,"text":"實際上以在野黨來講我們真的有充分的善意所以剛才我們的書記長也特別提到在星期二的程序委員會上我們留待星期五可以在座討論那如果說今天"},{"start":3724.733,"end":3726.714,"text":"再也黨是為反對而反對故意不審預算的話那真的在星期二就直接退回就算了但是呢我們考慮到星期四我們還有一場朝野協商而且呢我們也願意給行政院有更多的時間來去解決這個問題"},{"start":3744.98,"end":3750.967,"text":"所以必須要強調然後至於呢剛才有特別提到今天早上我們也看到民進黨的這個委員們也很辛苦我說今天呢天氣不好啊那麼大家早早的呢就守在了議場的門口"},{"start":3760.678,"end":3764.26,"text":"那我也不知道守在議場門口﹖到底他的意思是什麼﹖是要去大戰主席臺嗎﹖是要干擾這個明天的議事的進行嗎﹖可是顯然剛才我也聽到我們的吳思瑤幹事長說﹖其實是要確保我們的這個相關的議事能夠進行﹖"},{"start":3783.812,"end":3785.694,"text":"那我也很納悶啦因為事實上我們同樣的就是在院會的時候那麼我們一成不確定然後我們在座討論也許會進入表決但是呢以10月4號10月18號"},{"start":3801.189,"end":3801.509,"text":"二、國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":3817.64,"end":3821.443,"text":"十月十八號其實我們都很順利的來進行討論然後我們出席的委員也都能夠充分的表達意見所以我不曉得明天會跟這幾天有什麼不一樣所以要特別提出來的我們其實還是會非常的希望就是把"},{"start":3843.679,"end":3854.49,"text":"該編的法定預算．還有相關主決議．也就是行政部門答應立法院．答應朝野立委該做的事情．能夠趕快的．能夠把它．能夠．"},{"start":3858.694,"end":3867.299,"text":"應該有一個合理而且讓我們能夠接受的一個處理的方式那麼我們當然也樂見這個預算趕快來審查我們也樂見我們的院長可以來報告但是這個前提一定是行政院必須要有誠意解決以上謝謝謝謝王宏威首席副市長的發言台灣民進黨請二人發言哪一位請"},{"start":3891.718,"end":3907.769,"text":"請二人發言,請謝謝院長,剛剛其實我提了兩個問題,第二個問題主席早沒有回那沒有回我就當怕是不存在所以現在已經沒有要在野黨配合他們明年修法,修回每公頃4萬元的問題"},{"start":3911.21,"end":3912.871,"text":"在立法院三讀通過法律案以後"},{"start":3938.547,"end":3951.493,"text":"原住民針對他們的保留地每公頃6萬元這個是三毒生肖的法律國家依法本來就應該要給付這沒有什麼好說的"},{"start":3952.916,"end":3978.522,"text":"這才是法治國原則這樣的給付如果把它奠基在要求在野黨配合明年把它修回去每公頃4萬元的話我們不會接受我們無法接受如果依法行政發給我們原住民朋友保留地每公頃6萬元是用明年"},{"start":3979.932,"end":4006.745,"text":"要我們答應修法修回去每公頃4萬元的話我們不會接受我們也無法接受用犧牲用踐踏原住民族朋友的權益來當作代價我們萬萬沒有辦法同意這個是第一點立場要很清楚表明的第二點剛剛主計長說說這樣子的編列是合法的那我就"},{"start":4007.959,"end":4030.831,"text":"覺得有點困惑因為除了在2017年除了在2017年鄭天橋委員上一次在協商的時候有提出來的一個主決議說以後不可以再這樣做那事實是他們每一次都同意從2017年以外2018年"},{"start":4035.06,"end":4051.89,"text":"2018年那個時候1月22號禮拜一一樣是在總預算的協商2018年1月22號當初的行政院院長是賴清德參與協商的是行政院的秘書長卓龍炭當時的秘書長那個時候第六案的主決議也說了進法補償經預算"},{"start":4063.766,"end":4087.708,"text":"要不然就要編列在行政院（要不然就由行政院撥交（原住民族友人會以公務預算（來加以編列那過去（由原住民族發展基金所代電的進法補償（在次一個年度要撥還那我就覺得很困惑所以現在（因為剛剛主計長所講的法規的狀態跟我（"},{"start":4092.29,"end":4117.245,"text":"所賴讀到的過去所做的一些事情情況都不太一樣所以我剛剛所提的那個問題的第一點的困惑我還是存在那可能我在這個事務的理解上跟認知上比不上我們原住民的委員今天有很多原住民的委員也都有參與我想說那個原住民族發展基金其實"},{"start":4118.326,"end":4128.507,"text":"是最攸關原住民朋友他們的權益等一下我們也抱持一個開放的心胸聽聽看我們原住民委員大家所採取的看法是什麼以上"},{"start":4130.535,"end":4151.201,"text":"謝謝黃國昌臺灣民眾黨二輪發言剛才蔡蘇緝長您說你要對場外民眾講話是什麼意思就是說議場我們現在有在排隊各位黨團蔡蘇緝長她的意思是針對明天的排隊針對這一部分跟大家來報告一下我剛剛沒有講因為你剛剛有問嘛剛剛有問啊"},{"start":4159.793,"end":4171.258,"text":"我只有一句話啦我只有一句話啦我上個禮拜我上個禮拜跟洪森先生一起排了我們三點就排了我們就先地案要不是我政黨協助你們當時候無意義我們總預算就可以復為了"},{"start":4177.201,"end":4191.206,"text":"各位黨團幹部希望...院長不好意思容我打斷我請院長跟大家說明一次清楚說明規則是三個黨團輪流院長有點到名才可以發言還是大家隨便拿麥克風就可以發言"},{"start":4193.944,"end":4194.205,"text":"主席院長"},{"start":4214.481,"end":4242.13,"text":"現在又來了一位林倩琦原住民委員也來關心感謝你請坐現在等一下原住民委員因為今天有大概有將近六位原住民委員都在現場七位因為我們黨團幹部的開會的時間的關係我有幾點要特別拜託各位今天在座的原住民委員我知道你們都很關心第一個請控制時間第二個重複性的也就拜託大家也就不用再第三就是"},{"start":4243.71,"end":4243.89,"text":"請高經緯發言"},{"start":4272.915,"end":4299.877,"text":"再次謝謝韓院長這是我第三次參加草友協商我要跟場外的我的族人、家人們說聲你們辛苦了你們正在淋雨我們在這裡在捍衛我們的尊嚴剛剛黃國昌委員提到的那個主決議其實就是我提的所以我非常的清楚知道當時的主決議就已經說了我們的行政院進法補償必須要從公務預算裡面來編"},{"start":4303.399,"end":4324.912,"text":"當時的蘇主席他說沒問題蘇院長說這個做主決議這個曾經有過的公文就在國昌老師的手上好我要再講的就是說在原住民部位一直有人講進法補償一定領得到6萬塊我一直很納悶主任也在問我"},{"start":4326.095,"end":4327.416,"text":"所以我們真的拿到6萬塊嗎?我們今天不就是為了行政院少編2萬塊在這裡協商嗎?是不是院長?對吧?"},{"start":4336.536,"end":4356.78,"text":"而我今天也很認真（我把兩本公務預算（一本公務預算（一本綜合發展基金（來給大家看（來給大家說明（各位委員回去的時候（可以翻一下（我先來講（人民單位預算的81頁稅出計畫（我們不久有看到計畫補償（是編了28.161億"},{"start":4361.564,"end":4376.408,"text":"因此我們來看一下綜合發展基金的12頁就是這本比較黃一點的這本12頁的確在業務收入裡面也有看到其他業務他寫其他業務的收入是28.161億"},{"start":4379.809,"end":4385.912,"text":"這個部分就是由原民單位的28.161億到綜合發展基金要去進法補償的"},{"start":4394.995,"end":4403.903,"text":"但是呢我又翻到中和發展基金的34頁114年度的金額數辦理進法補償的費用它上面只有寫27.87億奇怪了27.87億跟28.161億為什麼會少呢到底在哪裡呢我一直在找好終於在61頁"},{"start":4420.899,"end":4424.561,"text":"六十一頁的一般服務上下的第九上面寫要辦理禁法的後台維運管理也就是我們劃禁法補償要有一些機制讓後台管理的維運費2910萬"},{"start":4442.668,"end":4449.098,"text":"大家都清楚知道數字加起來就是27.87億加上2910萬等於公務預算裡面的28.161億"},{"start":4457.659,"end":4477.481,"text":"我覺得主計長你不要說謊有些人也不要說謊都說基金跟購物預算一起編列可以拿到六萬塊報告大家兩本預算書在這裡回去好好的用功看一下那繼續呢我要問一下"},{"start":4478.462,"end":4498.82,"text":"中和發展基金（剛剛主計長有講（希望在中和發展基金（不足的那2萬塊（要在中和發展基金裡面（我們看得到（如果不足的2萬塊（按照我們現在7萬多公企（應該要多少（2、7、14 對不對在中和發展基金裡面（也沒有看到14億（"},{"start":4501.351,"end":4512.835,"text":"所以整個如果按照他們的邏輯這個園民會的單位預算編28.161億的話在綜合發展基金應該要看到14億沒有看到所以我要講的就是剛剛主計長說要在蒸發基金裡面"},{"start":4524.028,"end":4528.891,"text":"真的是違法他講什麼他說基本法第21條他引用21條他說盈利所得是可以放在基金裡面的我沒有意見但是禁法補償不是盈利所得啊院長他是我們的政府侵害人民的權利這叫做特別犧牲"},{"start":4552.125,"end":4554.566,"text":"特別犧牲就必須要政府編列預算補償因此我們才會同意我們兩位原住民立法委員一個是吳麗華 一個是陳穎雖然陳穎是後來才簽的 同意的"},{"start":4571.192,"end":4577.361,"text":"我們就按照他們兩個人提的六萬我是召委我就讓他通過了啊那通過了這個過程我們就不要講了那個不提副議案、總統公告都不提了那我要講的是"},{"start":4586.107,"end":4603.981,"text":"中核發展基金的預算法第4條第一項（第二款第4目我一直在講凡付出去要收回我們的主計長我在質詢他的時候他說在我們的中核發展基金裡面還有淨值30億如果大家都知道淨值30億的話"},{"start":4609.895,"end":4610.376,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":4628.997,"end":4641.812,"text":"行政院主計總署（給原民會的函（因為在111年9月12號的時候（原民會真的受不了了（他行文給行政院的主計總署（他說"},{"start":4644.955,"end":4650.78,"text":"請撥足原住民族綜合發展基金歷年辦理經法補償至累計虧損28.32億這是111年已經虧損了38.32億今年虧損了按照他的中發基金裡面應該是虧損了22億吧然後我們看然後主計總署告訴他說什麼"},{"start":4670.157,"end":4677.821,"text":"原民基金淨值62.1億元．111年淨值62.1億元．現在114年中發基金告訴我們淨值只有30億元．所以裡面歷年來都從這邊出去的．而目前淨值我剛剛說是貸款出去．還沒有收回的"},{"start":4693.129,"end":4700.171,"text":"然後我們的主計處又說（113年度起由公務預算支應進法補償經費一截（很顯然人民會也請求主計處（用公務預算來編進法補償（考量進法補償經費逐年增加（為了維持人民基金規模的穩定（相關經費將是基金財務狀況（"},{"start":4718.977,"end":4722.559,"text":"事實協處111年的時候已經沒有撥足了剛剛主席長說現在還要用基金請問一下你們什麼時候要撥足這是剛剛我想問的問題第二個問題不是主席長講的是蔡易瑜書記長跟吳思堯幹事長提的他們要提剛剛國參院總召說的他們要提"},{"start":4746.773,"end":4773.058,"text":"下修禁法補償到4萬塊我想問今天難得出席的兩位民進黨的吳麗華跟陳穎同不同意下修4萬塊好嗎我今天很高興看到他們兩位來了不然都是我跟鄭天才兩個人在發言謝謝謝謝高金、宋美委員發言接下來我們吳麗華委員之後有哪一位原住民的委員要發言請舉手沒有"},{"start":4777.087,"end":4799.156,"text":"鄭天才委員請舉手鄭天才委員要發言我們現在請伍麗華委員發言請鄭天才委員請準備請謝謝院長主席今天很高興我一直都想參與協商但是呢因為是邀請幹部所以今天特別開放關心的原民李蔚來我要在這邊特別要感謝"},{"start":4800.876,"end":4816.404,"text":"關於這個禁法補償其實我個人一直以來我有我自己的認知為什麼我的認知那麼樣的肯定第一我要先跟大家報告我早在7月初"},{"start":4817.364,"end":4830.153,"text":"就已經聽到我們的地方政府（地方公所（跟我表達說明年度的進法補償的一個預算編列真的是6萬"},{"start":4831.977,"end":4848.71,"text":"在7月初就已經聽到地方政府跟鄉公所跟我這樣說所以我特別把那一份公文請他們交給我果然7月5號 人民會正式的行文發函給各縣市政府"},{"start":4849.511,"end":4871.682,"text":"告訴他們說114年度的各項的科目（計畫的編列（請他們按照那樣去戰估列數（所以我一定要先續名在先（所以對地方政府跟公所而言（其實並沒有這樣的困擾（是後來我們立法院產生這樣的問題（他們反而開始困擾（第二,我要說明（"},{"start":4876.704,"end":4897.38,"text":"作為一個原住民族事務的最高行政主管機關（他可以在7月初（就是按照年度計行的形式律（要趕快把這樣的一個計畫編列（因為不僅僅是禁法補償（明年我們有非常多的科目預算（都等著地方政府要暫顧編列（"},{"start":4899.662,"end":4910.054,"text":"那他為什麼會這樣做（當然就是有依據（他依據什麼呢（因為過去他看到（在105年開始發放進法補償金的時候（主計總處有發文給原民會（"},{"start":4918.163,"end":4941.615,"text":"告訴他們說這個禁法補償的發放是用公務預算及基金各辦編列如果有不足再予以協處這個是因為他們從105年接到這個公文都一直這麼做好那第三我要說明大家在爭執的到底基金"},{"start":4942.555,"end":4952.078,"text":"能不能來支應我們的進法補償金（我相信主計總署能夠在105年（發文給原民會這麼說（當然也必須有憑有據（所以它依據的是什麼呢（是民國96年（當時把我們的進法補償的一個依據（就是土地限制要補償的時候（在那個地方放入到（"},{"start":4970.743,"end":4988.456,"text":"基金的管用辦法的第4條的本基金之來源如下上面寫著說原住民族土地賠償、補償、收益款、土地資源開發盈利所得及相關法律規定之提撥款這個過去"},{"start":4991.992,"end":5001.257,"text":"上一次修訂是在民國93年但是他是在民國96年的11月30日修訂進來的當時還沒有進法補償金的發放但是已經有這樣的遠見規劃那我也要特別說明當時的事務副主任委員是在場的鄭天才委員也許他等一下可以說明那重上我就要來講"},{"start":5022.735,"end":5043.545,"text":"剛才高金委員很高興您提到我跟您報告其實我進來立法院第二年110年的12月我也是聽到圓明會的官員跟我說吳委員請你去幫忙爭取一定要把進法補償金要求全數編載公務預算"},{"start":5045.626,"end":5072.974,"text":"我當時也聽信了我也覺得很有道理所以呢我兩度質詢主計長朱澤民結果質詢完之後我回去研究整個基金到底是什麼東西我就不堅持了為什麼因為我以為基金真的會發完我也聽信這樣的話後來我發現大家斟酌在看不懂什麼叫基金"},{"start":5074.181,"end":5090.162,"text":"基金短處是指當年度的支出跟收入加減所得是當年度我舉個例子我們的人民綜合發展基金向來都是大部分拿去放去做貸款"},{"start":5091.499,"end":5110.858,"text":"如果我放出去50億的貸款但是我只有收回10萬的利息10萬的其他的收入包括溫泉收入等等我是短促了40億但是我不能說我負債40億但是我也看了預算書第33頁"},{"start":5113.171,"end":5124.001,"text":"我們的基金是要看淨值的很明顯的寫著我們113年12月底我們的基金淨值還有68億多我也查了從民國95年歷年主計總數一直撥進來人民基金的累計已經高達199億多"},{"start":5137.048,"end":5155.377,"text":"所以大家都應該很清楚資金是發放得出來的所以我們的園民會也願意也敢也覺得理所當然在7月5號發出這樣的公文所以時至今日我不太曉得說我在這裡我到底要說什麼我不知道我要說什麼"},{"start":5159.212,"end":5172.61,"text":"但是我願意如果大家能夠聽到我講的這番話我希望在外面很辛苦前來承擴的族人真的希望你們聽到我的話因為這幾個月我很難過"},{"start":5174.933,"end":5190.781,"text":"大家為著這件事情到底有沒有分爭、對立、人心惶惶甚至造成原住民族群跟全國的人民的一個這樣的一個嫌隙我於心不忍因為我不知道所為何來"},{"start":5191.921,"end":5209.508,"text":"對我來講莫名其妙可是如果避免未來再去做這樣的一個糾紛大家今天是協商坐下來談我覺得剛才黃國昌委員他講的每一句話我都覺得很有道理因為我們就坐在這邊就基金到底可不可以拿來發"},{"start":5211.891,"end":5228.816,"text":"只要能發以後怎麼做有沒有附帶條件我是認為說只要未來不要再為這個假議題爭吵我覺得今天坐在這邊我們很願意來聽聽看怎麼做才好讓未來就不要再吵了謝謝"},{"start":5234.608,"end":5252.645,"text":"下面還有哪位原住民委員要發言?請舉手。好,盧憲憶委員請準備。好,院長、各黨團、還有我們的行政部門。這個依法行政。天台兄,你可不可以稍微大聲一點。好,依法行政。你可以換一個麥克風。"},{"start":5263.692,"end":5287.306,"text":"拿兩支麥克風沒關係拿兩支麥克風沒關係沒關係依法行政是最基本的我們要想到對原住民族而言只有15億的不足我們今年要開這麼多次的協商成為原住民族最卑微的懇求這個是我已經上次我也講過原住民因為這樣的一個議題"},{"start":5294.181,"end":5314.974,"text":"造成分裂我非常非常的難過行政院既然沒有依憲法提出復議就表示沒有自愛難行就應該要依法編列預算"},{"start":5316.772,"end":5342.242,"text":"但是就是少編了15億的經費所以希望趕快今天能夠完成有關韓院長在主持進法補償條例的時候我要再重申上次我也提過行政部門包括當時的行政院副主計長"},{"start":5343.615,"end":5367.484,"text":"包括嚴明會的主任委員都沒有提到4萬塊都沒有提到4萬塊議事錄都有 會議記錄都有所以後來就表決既然通過了 也沒有赴議就應該要依法行政我們一直糾結在這個原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":5369.025,"end":5397.343,"text":"原住民主基本法第18條規定的很清楚前段它是用途用途就是作為發展經濟之用也就是要辦理經濟事業貸款維新貸款創業貸款而且預算法第4條這個不是我寫的是行政院送來的預算書"},{"start":5399.057,"end":5426.119,"text":"預算法明定預算書寫得很清楚本基金系一預算法第四條第二項第二款第四目第四目凡付出仍可收回很清楚這個就是什麼呢就像貸款付出去"},{"start":5427.113,"end":5448.964,"text":"本金可以收回來（利息可以收回來（淨法補償是不可以的（收不回來的主計長一直在引用研究法第18條的後段是講基金的來源基金的來源如果我們回到"},{"start":5449.966,"end":5468.711,"text":"基金管理應用辦法．基金的來源．第一款循政府預算的收入．撥入進去．就是公務預算．撥到基金可以．原住民族土地的賠償．補償．我查過．都沒有了．"},{"start":5475.911,"end":5502.877,"text":"例如今年度的21億公務預算的撥入那是管理辦法的第一款是公務預算的撥入不是補償的收入不是補償款這個非常的明確也就是因為有這樣的一個規定所以才會有在第九屆"},{"start":5504.768,"end":5529.799,"text":"立法院通過了預算案的主決議預算案的主決議就是措施性的法例這個第九屆大家都很清楚民進黨是絕對多數預算案的主決議那時候大家都無意義通過"},{"start":5531.715,"end":5554.646,"text":"這個決議就是寫得很清楚就是說過去從106年開始動資原住民族綜合發展基金撥付到禁法補償是違反延期法違反預算法應該要返還這個是第九屆"},{"start":5556.345,"end":5585.047,"text":"第二會期的一個第二會期第17次會議的一個結議好 接下來我們 剛才我們吳立華特別提到113 他一直常引用這個文113年7月 延民會的公文我跟他報告這個是所有各部會要補助給地方政府的"},{"start":5586.417,"end":5613.188,"text":"每一年都在六、七月的時候就要發文請各地方政府亦為編列明年我要補助給你的錢那時候很清楚以今年來講113年7月行政院的預算案行政院會都還沒有通過"},{"start":5615.451,"end":5640.997,"text":"八月三十一號以前送來（八月中旬之後才行政院院會通過這是長年及一百多年的慣例這是第一個第二請吳委員看清楚我本來不想講了既然你說了我還是說你請你看清楚這個金額是多少呢"},{"start":5643.325,"end":5654.013,"text":"看公文看清楚你有寫啊113年7月顏明慧的公文你寫得很大進法補償多少錢呢19億8144萬5544元啊"},{"start":5665.502,"end":5686.814,"text":"19億怎麼能計（我發錯誤的資訊（那是屏東縣的分配額（不是全國（不是 全部的那是屏東縣的提醒一下 發言的時候徵詢一下主席同意 謝謝這是全部的天才兄你稍微再大聲一點你現在搞得變懸疑片了再大聲一點這個是全部的怎麼可能屏東就19億呢"},{"start":5688.482,"end":5705.923,"text":"怎麼可能屏東就19億呢 對不對這是全部的我也有那張公文這是接下來我再次讓因為他們都比較不知道我是老公演"},{"start":5709.298,"end":5738.266,"text":"科建民總召第一次協商的時候（我也很高興他知道（他竟然知道我很感佩（我那天也說謝謝他民國82年（臺灣省政府我在服務的時候（就以要點（來訂定禁法補償（那時候一公頃就是兩萬塊（現在已經三十幾年了（"},{"start":5739.631,"end":5767.899,"text":"所以我們現在已經訂了條例好105年確實沒有錯馬英九執政的時候的最後一年104年的8月31號送來的預算書有包含公務預算跟基金這是事實"},{"start":5769.727,"end":5796.946,"text":"所以我當時感謝毛治國院長法例還沒通過進場補償條例是114年12月底通過的但是8月114年8月31號就先編了預算所以我質詢的時候我就感謝他但是我特別跟毛治國院長說用基金是不可以的"},{"start":5798.001,"end":5821.635,"text":"我把你姑且證為代為店婦（還是要返還（一、四路全部都在（一、四路都在（而當年105年（並沒有動用到（雖然變了基金（沒有動用到基金（全數都是公務預算（從106年開始（"},{"start":5825.697,"end":5847.329,"text":"就開始動用到基金（所以才會有第九屆的立法院的主決議（所以這個部分是一個很重要的一個爭點另外就是說（剛才吳立華委員也提了（他有質詢（確實有質詢（他跟我一樣（我也不斷的質詢（"},{"start":5852.262,"end":5880.822,"text":"不可以再用綜合發展基金所以今年113年度的21億全部都是公預算沒有編列原住民組綜合發展基金這個預算書都很清楚所以本席要特別特別的來拜託我們行政院能夠尤其是主計長"},{"start":5882.623,"end":5903.619,"text":"我們就15億而已我們可以用第二一倍金也可以修正預算我也講過民國100年12月5號行政院、伊利法院100年12月2號的結議當時吳敦利院長"},{"start":5908.479,"end":5934.371,"text":"一、立法院一百年十二月二號的結議（三天之內一百年十二月五號（就修正了一百零一年度的預算（修正增加多少呢一百六十幾億啊我們只不過是十五億所以這個部分其實是非常容易解決的"},{"start":5936.095,"end":5950.205,"text":"還要弄到法院長要三次的協商所以這個部分我特別特別再次的懇求行政院要依法行政以上 謝謝"},{"start":5957.22,"end":5976.31,"text":"我不是要舉手插話我只是有一個跟院長的請求因為我們剛剛講建議就是說因為院長很辛苦那大家如果有一些概念沒有釐清我們繼續講還是會開花所以我想請求院長可以才是在盧委員發言之前或"},{"start":5976.77,"end":6004.594,"text":"之後可以就剛剛很多委員提到的淨值啦、貸款啦這些請主席還有那個凡經付出人客收工等一下主席長會再一次做說明但我是建議說是不是可以先行說明在我發言之前先說明因為不然我覺得這個概念不清楚再繼續講大家都沒有焦急這是我替院長著想的建議希望你不要那麼辛苦謝謝"},{"start":6005.234,"end":6031.986,"text":"我們先謝謝剛才老公務員我們鄭天才的發言我的想法是幫大家想因為各位原住民委員都非常關切這個案子所以我的想法也是幫你們想讓你們先一輪發言之後我要就請主席長說明主席長說明之後三個黨團幹部一定會有其他的意見補強我想這樣子的話關於原住民委員大家都非常關切就有一個可以把自己的想法講出來的機會這是我幫大家想的陳議員這樣您能瞭解我的想法嗎"},{"start":6035.358,"end":6036.819,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6057.814,"end":6083.961,"text":"大家都很聰明大家也都知道大家也都是識字6月24號公告到現在已經4個月了大家擔心的就是沒有依法編列這個事實然後呢我們行政院長他又常常會說惡例不可開那我們原住民要怎麼相信你們有誠意然後民進黨常常說我們是正式人權正式公平正義站在原住民這一邊可是"},{"start":6085.615,"end":6107.309,"text":"我們會覺得很可笑所以我們只要知道說我們15億要不要編組而已就這麼簡單的問題然後我們一直要講那個零命基礎到現在我們聯合國的一個對原住民主的看法甚至我們憲法的原則你們一直說什麼財政紀律法、預算法"},{"start":6108.482,"end":6135.468,"text":"文憲的問題可是憲法正修條文第10條的第12項不是也是保障民員住民嗎所以憲法跟憲法比較的時候是哪一個比較優先所以不是只有你們有憲法我們也是憲法保障的所以你們每次都說財政紀律法預算法可是這個跟那個有關係嗎所以希望你拿點良心然後一直說惡力不可開哪裡來的惡力6萬塊只是基本的綠色存底而已"},{"start":6136.488,"end":6138.329,"text":"含附屬單位預算案．含附屬單位預算案．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議"},{"start":6164.042,"end":6173.123,"text":"不是 等到公糧收購再請你發言好不好張大靚委員一定是為這個事情很關心我們現在請陳議員發言之前請主席長能不能再說明一下好 謝謝請"},{"start":6176.665,"end":6197.715,"text":"其實我們剛剛談到原住民基本法裡面是第18條它有一個基金的一個來源那一個來源就是公庫的一個撥入款那這公庫的撥入款其實我們整個支出的執行是在基金執行那基金執行它其實基金有一個作用就是說你如果被虐不足它可以超支並決算"},{"start":6198.915,"end":6221.79,"text":"策劃這併決算的部分跟公僱之間的一個算法就是說我本來公僱應該撥你30億但是你現在你超過了30而已將來這個部分我再下一年度來做撥補所以它會有一個收入的來源它也有一個支出所以它支出經理我們本來就是說建議因為你要看這個基金它有沒有剩餘款"},{"start":6223.09,"end":6251.302,"text":"現在到今年為止還有30億的剩餘款如果這個基金我超支我本來現在是4萬的額度超過它到6萬的額度我用併支出來處理支出並決算處理之後這個將來不夠的款項我在115年我編列預算國庫來撥補回來也是它的一個財源所以它也是一個支出一個收入有在收回所以我要這樣說明以上一個補充"},{"start":6252.182,"end":6262.835,"text":"好,謝謝陳主委長補充說明那陳議員發言完畢還沒其他委員要發言林倩琪委員要發言那黨團幹部請稍微等一下我們先讓原住民委員盡量一輪的表達意見請陳議員發言,林倩琪委員請準備"},{"start":6265.748,"end":6286.686,"text":"好 謝謝院長那我想我要在這裡首先我要先重申我的立場因為我是提案人我主張進法補償要6萬元好 那我想剛剛盧縣議委員有提到說我們原住民很關心怎麼編列但我想他們會更關心到他們手上的是不是每公頃6萬元"},{"start":6288.347,"end":6310.313,"text":"至於怎麼編列,我想這個功課似乎在立法院大家比較關心也比較清楚整個預算的編列方式那剛剛前面也有委員有提到就是說有什麼附帶的下修4萬元這件事"},{"start":6311.013,"end":6331.023,"text":"不好意思我是沒有聽說過我剛剛問了吳立華委員他也沒聽說過那我又問了黨團幹部這個應該是有點片面的這個擷取那如果說就是未來要修公務預算要修他也有可能是往上修啊"},{"start":6332.643,"end":6347.709,"text":"調整是可能往上調也可能往下調但是大家不要自己嚇自己或者我們又去嚇很多的原住民說傳來傳去變成下修四萬塊這件事情我想在這邊先呈現這個但是"},{"start":6348.729,"end":6360.743,"text":"我就是堅持我們這次修法我提案就是六萬元那未來你說如果真要下修我也不會同意啦那這是我的立場那再來"},{"start":6363.055,"end":6363.835,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6389.821,"end":6394.724,"text":"有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":6414.893,"end":6439.513,"text":"建議把基金規定改為總額不得低於100億元（而且要比照離島建設基金及花東基金這樣的提案（如果這樣的提案通過（才有可能導致基金破產（因為差別在於離島建設基金的規模（"},{"start":6443.736,"end":6470.628,"text":"法律規定定在300億它是固定的然後分10年撥補所以撥完用完之後政府就不會再挹注基金除非大家再來修法那花東基金它也一樣規模是400億也是固定的分10年撥補那也是撥補完之後政府就不會再挹注基金你如果還要再要我們又要再重來一次又要再修法所以"},{"start":6472.469,"end":6497.203,"text":"這個假如我們今天縱合發展原住民的縱合發展基金按照主計長再三的解釋他就是會一直的撥補那如果今天我們這個提案按照這樣的修法比照這個離島建設基金跟花東基金這個總額固定之後那撥補完用完就沒有了"},{"start":6499.003,"end":6526.957,"text":"所以用這樣的方式那我們的綜合發展基金才有可能破產所以這個部分我就在這裡提出補充說明那麼另外我要在這邊也就是跟各位提出一個請求跟建議就是說其實這一次的修法有"},{"start":6527.777,"end":6527.857,"text":"民進黨團提議．"},{"start":6543.144,"end":6549.888,"text":"二、研商有關公務預算案．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．公務預算一定要編多少．"},{"start":6569.878,"end":6570.919,"text":"國民黨團提議（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":6586.187,"end":6609.573,"text":"最後變成好像一個政治議題在操作我覺得這個是我非常不樂見的事情所以今天藉著這個協商那我也跟外面的族人說一聲大家辛苦了那注意保暖那麼我覺得其實今天根本大家不用擔心這樣一輪聽完其實大家就是明年就是會領到6萬塊錢的這個禁法補償"},{"start":6613.854,"end":6616.015,"text":"含附屬單位預算案．一、繼續研商有關"},{"start":6635.047,"end":6644.358,"text":"來編列的話那我想大家可以更快速的然後總預算通過然後我們大家可以領到禁法補償以上謝謝好謝謝陳議員接著林建琦委員請發言"},{"start":6650.902,"end":6669.214,"text":"謝謝主席 各位立委同仁大家好剛才我們在幾人的發言我們也聽到這個事情來龍去脈的一個交代那我想細節的這個部分大家應該都蠻清楚那各自依據大家所認為的法條來解釋這件事"},{"start":6670.735,"end":6699.561,"text":"但是在發言當中我聽到幾位原住民委員包括我自己心裡是非常的傷痛我覺得我們原住民在這件事情上感覺很卑微的在這樣一個體制下好像感覺我不想講出那個字但是我用這個盧委員曾經在一次質詢裡面講我們原住民沒有Kick價這個概念好不好"},{"start":6701.636,"end":6718.422,"text":"他剛才也提到幾件事情我講比較清楚一點那兩位民進黨原住民的委員我想我們都為原住民的事務在努力在推動但是我不希望因為政黨"},{"start":6719.741,"end":6736.494,"text":"而讓我們裂解這是我最主要的一個觀點所以我也不希望我們在這樣一個體制下感覺非常的卑微那剛才大家都交代過了所以我現在指在今天的協商我們很務實的在這個體制跟這樣一個方式上我來"},{"start":6740.92,"end":6768.037,"text":"討論幾個問題第一個是我們感謝吳立華委員在地方上有確定這個中央發了函把這個戰估列數讓族人知道說可以領到這樣子的錢但是呢我們今天在這邊不就是在確定族人還有我們的人民能夠把應領到的錢在一個法治的流程當中領得很驕傲嗎"},{"start":6769.997,"end":6797.365,"text":"我們是配合國家政策我們配合國家政策犧牲自己的權益我們有需要這麼卑微的來拿到這個錢嗎我們有需要這麼懼怕的不知道這個錢會不會盧數給我們嗎這不是我們現在在這邊做的事情嗎那我們要做的就是我們必須在這個體制裡面把每一件事情確認清楚嘛"},{"start":6798.762,"end":6808.588,"text":"這一次我們發現的是公務預算裡面我們看不到跟它等同的錢被編在裡面這不就是我們在看預算的時候發現的問題嗎在這個過程當中我還發現一件"},{"start":6814.571,"end":6832.857,"text":"令我更訝異的是就是大家一直在討論基金那我想呼應盧委員我們不用在這邊上這些課那剛才大家已經都交代得很清楚如果繼續想上這個課那就來看立法院的這個片子那我想要問一個重點就是其實我以前在新北市"},{"start":6834.045,"end":6858.826,"text":"跟中央曾經推動過原住民的事務當時的基金大概也有將近快100億那我很訝異從禁法補償我們發現了這個公立預算沒有編足的過程當中竟然用的是基金而且離我當時的印象到現在竟然已經是負的好那剛才這個也很感謝陳英偉人讓主席長先把事情交代清楚"},{"start":6861.482,"end":6862.382,"text":"請問我們今天在這邊協商什麼"},{"start":6884.748,"end":6903.558,"text":"請問你在協商什麼?錢在哪裡啦?確定嗎?那這是第一個齁那第二個齁因為剛才主席長一直說國庫會撥補這個叫會撥補啊可是現在是多少錢?短處多少錢?那剛才每位委員其實都交代得非常清楚"},{"start":6905.43,"end":6916.966,"text":"政委員其實講得非常清楚所以那主計長你要不要告訴我們國報怎麼撥補今年怎麼處理未來怎麼處理那你前面那幾年是怎麼處理的"},{"start":6918.116,"end":6936.877,"text":"為什麽我們所知道的基金的總額一直到現在竟然是短促了你們要用什麽名詞都沒有關係就是族人聽得懂的大家聽得懂的所以重點是您剛才說國庫要撥補你們都一直說這個沒有問題可是我一直沒有聽出來你到底要怎麽做"},{"start":6937.993,"end":6958.605,"text":"剛才高金委員其實交代得非常清楚他在公立預算裡面跟基金對不出來嘛那好不容易對他已經把數額都對得非常清楚了但是我從主計長您的回應裡面沒有聽到究竟你們要怎麼做現在是什麼狀況您一直告訴我們行政上的處理我們還要再上行政課"},{"start":6959.793,"end":6982.711,"text":"所以如果這個部分能夠很清楚那我們協商可能還會有一個結果嘛那也很感謝這個我們陳英委員談到了這個華東基金那華東基金其實沒有我們原住民的這個基金預算法第4條的這個區塊您剛才類比的這個部分或許可以在行政上再確認清楚對族人而言我們需要"},{"start":6984.261,"end":7010.058,"text":"把這個錢給領到而且確定對所有的人而言那我們依法行政嘛那你們怎麼挪怎麼來那你們就是不要去阻擋到我們的權益這就是一個很基礎的概念而已概念而已你們大可以用許多的語彙很多的行政專業口吻來跟族人說但是重點就是我們需要這麼卑微的要這個錢嗎我們配合了國家的發展那我們需要這麼卑微嗎"},{"start":7017.304,"end":7030.742,"text":"若呼籲原住民的委員跟原住民我們不要被這樣一個體制給裂解我們沒有這樣子的空間謝謝好 謝謝林芊怡委員發言"},{"start":7034.164,"end":7035.165,"text":"我們休息十分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":7074.004,"end":7077.246,"text":"二、民進黨團提議（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":7101.856,"end":7113.581,"text":"二、民進黨團提議（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":7120.002,"end":7122.984,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議（國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":7153.047,"end":7166.158,"text":"二、民進黨團提議（國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．"},{"start":7221.175,"end":7221.779,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議"},{"start":8507.609,"end":8532.26,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部也謝謝各位列席的官員我們現在林市民市長你請求發言的請簡短二要我馬上要列一下不是要幹事長請準備是我們今天的主題除了禁法補償以外我們對於農民權益的保障就是我們公糧收購提高到五塊這一部分那我想雲林的張家俊委員他也到場了"},{"start":8533.34,"end":8549.875,"text":"還有張奇快委員也到場了還有丁薛忠委員他們都很關心這個議題所以這個議題我們是認為今天的協商也是在這個內容裡面所以我們請院長就是讓我們幾位委員來做發言對這個議題謝謝林士兵書記長的發言請吳思瑤幹事長請發言謝謝主席我想就程序上表達我的意見因為我不知道因為"},{"start":8558.72,"end":8582.016,"text":"今天在這個場合應當就是討論總預算要不要進入審查然後院長總需要來備詢然後以及後續排定審查的時間今天朝野協商的各黨黨編在這裡應當解決三兆總預算的排審問題那我們剛剛花了一個多小時將近兩個小時在討論單一個應當在內政委員會討論的原住民族"},{"start":8589.14,"end":8594.423,"text":"一、繼續研商有關:「114年度中央政府總預算案．含附屬單位預算及綜計表．含附屬單位預算案．公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":8612.893,"end":8636.991,"text":"那我不曉得現在如果公良收購要繼續講那是不是等一下未還委員會的委員又來講典值健保典值那又把應當在未還委員會討論的環境部的預算又拉到今天要討論三兆總預算的現場這樣子下去我覺得都完全我們非常尊重大家發言的機會但是相關發言相關議題都應當回到相關的委員會"},{"start":8641.454,"end":8641.994,"text":"三、民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議．民進黨黨團提議"},{"start":8668.198,"end":8693.707,"text":"這個都是既定的程序而不是在今天我們在解決總預算希望能夠解套交付審查的這個協商會議上進行個別單項預算的討論因為時間是大家的那在相關對的場域討論對的事情這是我們的期待那我另外也要說三兆的總預算如果持續沒有辦法往前推進"},{"start":8694.867,"end":8708.37,"text":"明天可能是第6次來決定．他能不能夠順利審查．又有颱風要來了．新增的159億的治水預算．能不能夠被致用呢．在新年度．這幾天．共軍不斷的將軍演常態化．如果黨下的總預算不審．我們的國防預算．也可能就沒有辦法在新年度．被執行了．"},{"start":8723.729,"end":8724.77,"text":"二、民進黨黨團提議．公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":8744.286,"end":8762.694,"text":"如果說總預算沒有辦法交付審查（我們有60億的健康台灣生耕計畫（這要做長照的（我們有50億的癌症新藥暫時性的支付預算（沒有辦法支應（這是要照顧癌症病友的（如果總預算沒有辦法交付審查（我們有高達68.85億攸關護理人力（"},{"start":8766.596,"end":8772.517,"text":"有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":8787.779,"end":8801.894,"text":"我知道原住民族的朋友們﹐很多在偏鄉﹐我們對於新年度的新興計畫裡頭﹐偏遠地區﹐不管是道路教育的設施﹐數十億省道改善的計畫來自農業縣的朋友﹐"},{"start":8804.443,"end":8830.921,"text":"省道改善的計劃道路改善新興計劃有104.55億如果今天沒有辦法再往前推進我剛剛說的這些預算都沒有辦法在新年度被執行所以我們關切原住民族的委員們關切所謂長期我們這片土地最溫暖的力量我們族人朋友的權益同樣的我們也要兼顧全體國人的權益"},{"start":8833.783,"end":8850.591,"text":"我﹐很遺憾的說﹐我的選區﹐在臺北市山區最多的地區﹐我現在仍坐在這裡協商﹐我的服務團隊告訴我﹐他們正要前往陽津公路﹐陽津公路今天因為雨來﹐後來啊﹐又癱瘓了﹐"},{"start":8852.749,"end":8875.342,"text":"現在正要針對防災這些東西來啟動大家有各自的選民要服務我們不要讓政府總預算沒有辦法前進我坐在這裡我坐在黨邊我和其的交集我的選區現在陽津公路整個攤房中斷我們需要防災治水請不要"},{"start":8877.123,"end":8902.634,"text":"繼續以單一課題來影響總預算的交付審查．希望內政委員會的委員足夠專業．可以針對禁法補償的政策找出解方．我們相信經濟委員會的委員足夠理性．可以解決共商出公糧收購．後續的預算執行問題．我們更相信未還委員會的委員．大家都有經驗、資深．"},{"start":8904.875,"end":8913.307,"text":"能夠針對健保典值的事務．在審議預算的期間．表達方法．所以再次懇求．"},{"start":8914.994,"end":8941.744,"text":"等下主席您也許有一些遇擬的才事但是這麼重要的遇擬才事我們希望是針對總預算後續進行的時程來做進一步的討論好 謝謝吳思耀幹事長的提醒那三位立法委員為了農民的公糧收購也在這邊作證我想我們簡短扼要的說明好嗎首先請張家俊委員發言請丁薛忠委員準備"},{"start":8943.674,"end":8964.812,"text":"謝謝院長主持協商那呼應一下吳斯堯委員其實今天的開會是有關於中央政府總預算案那不只是國民黨還有民眾黨我們提出的三樣訴求第一個是原名第二個是公糧收購價格提高第三個是健保點值0.95那我想這三個議題都必須要受到重視跟討論我們才有辦法往前推進那我想要講的是"},{"start":8972.919,"end":8974.801,"text":"農業部完全是裝蒜公糧收購價格提高這件事情"},{"start":8980.816,"end":9004.955,"text":"這麼的明確（他一直在講說一級二轉三加三（那是一個新的名詞來包裝（農業部已經行之有年（十年以上的這樣子的一個政策（那既然他已經實施十年以上（而且他也沒有辦法取代公糧收購制度（那就代表著公糧收購制度（有其存在的必要性（"},{"start":9006.056,"end":9008.598,"text":"包括說他講的說一級二轉三加三（如果假設他有效的話（他已經有效了（甚至說他說一年會提高一塊（我也主動的在這個經濟委員會上（質詢了陳俊記部長（我說你有辦法保證說這個實施下去（一年真的會漲一塊嗎（"},{"start":9030.217,"end":9036.799,"text":"如果不能長一塊你可以下台負責嗎他說他不敢保證所以他就是把農民當作實驗品嘛為什麼不能夠好好的來落實照顧這些農民呢他說因為呢他要做這個集中這個擴大這個產量我的意思是說他一級二轉三加三照顧的都是大農我們公糧收購"},{"start":9056.346,"end":9068.233,"text":"制度是在照顧老農、小農這樣子所以我覺得應該是要並行而不是一再的說不願意來推動公糧收購價格提高而且如果以去年收購29.1萬噸量來算的話假設不要說提高5塊提高8塊也只增加23億"},{"start":9079.76,"end":9083.865,"text":"就算是2012年那一年中了45.6萬噸（也只增加36億（所以哪裏來的100億（請不要危言聳聽（而且公糧收購是有限制的（"},{"start":9094.377,"end":9109.942,"text":"他不是一個毫無限制的收購甚至說公糧收購價格提高才有助於民糧價格也提高我在最近一直訪視了很多的糧商除了訪視農民之外我也訪視了糧商我說請問你們反對公糧收購價格提高嗎糧商很意外的"},{"start":9116.264,"end":9119.865,"text":"表示了意見．他說假設公糧收購價格不提高．他們也收不到糧．因為越來越少農民種稻．所以他們支持公糧收購價格提高．讓他們可以更好的去收到糧食．那再進一步呢．為什麼"},{"start":9135.271,"end":9137.593,"text":"為什麼一級二轉三加三這麼多年這個新名詞的包裝還是有這麼多的農民種水稻有一個原因是有很多年老弱勢的農民他們幾十年來就只會種水稻你要他們轉就是逼迫他們老年轉業"},{"start":9155.206,"end":9180.18,"text":"就是提高公糧收購的補助主要就是在照顧這些比較弱勢的農民他們沒有成本去做溫室他們也沒有技術去種一些新的作物他們只會種到所以我不能理解說為什麼農業部他的主旨應該是要照顧農民而不是去講求績效講求理想他一再的去講一級二轉三加三"},{"start":9180.94,"end":9184.723,"text":"你就站出來嘛否則農業部就站出來說我就是不願意照顧這些農民我就是不願意照顧這些老農不要再找理由講說什麼財政紀律法違反財政紀律法那過去長的那兩次都是違法的囉陳水扁的時代長的時候是違法嗎馬英九時代長的時候是違法嗎為什麼農業部不願意去面對說他只要願意把它編列下去再更甚"},{"start":9209.298,"end":9231.748,"text":"他說這個一級二轉三加三兩個計算起來說實在以他的計算公式差了大概五十億吧但是以真正的計算方式其實應該不用五十億可能二十億、三十億那就是他不願意嘛那否則就卓院長大聲站出來就說我不願意支持公糧收購價格提高不要再講一些這個虛無縹緲的理由謝謝"},{"start":9237.631,"end":9238.973,"text":"主席,感謝院長。"},{"start":9251.691,"end":9256.312,"text":"的用意是什麼?就是因為我們這個政法局長（這個介紹有關了（還有我們公衆記者（這個企劃課現在有關了（以及我們的政法有點數（現在有關了（這都經過了我們立法院（大院統計的一個案其實我"},{"start":9276.195,"end":9280.4,"text":"當然,之前,經常遇到一些我們的農民市長,他們一直知道說,我們立法院已經通過五項這個公職人員修改的介紹,為什麼我們的行政院副委員用於什麼?因為大家在哀,哀說"},{"start":9296.408,"end":9302.189,"text":"整項議案、農業議案、工廠議案．誰都去,公職人員十三年就起位起來對他們來說,他們的修例堅固我們現在是希望說﹐可以透過政府單位﹐和我們這裡的辛苦的農民﹐和最基層的農民﹐讓他們有一碗飯好吃﹐未來透過國土計劃﹐再進行下去我們有關農地﹐"},{"start":9324.67,"end":9324.77,"text":"國民黨黨團提議．國民黨黨團提議．"},{"start":9339.497,"end":9343.938,"text":"關乎大家的中心基金（我們來讓我們的農民（可以有更好的一個高中（讓他們有更好的一個修律（讓他們有辦法看到說（我們真正政府單位對他們（的真正的照顧（不要說只要依我們分的觀來說（我們就才會將近六成（的土地都是在掙扎（他們是要付這全國的（這個素材（這個入息（"},{"start":9367.262,"end":9372.665,"text":"有一個提供、有一個大款（所以為什麼我們的藥金來提這個案（我們不是說我們要來表現什麼（我們是實際說（我們有夠有一個事務啊（我們要做的是什麼（是要做好人群（不是來為人送天（不是來阻礙到一切（醫生謝謝丁薛忠委員的發言（接下來張吉凱委員請發言"},{"start":9394.704,"end":9411.029,"text":"今天我們坐在這邊是因為民進黨政府違法在先不照顧該照顧的農民、原住民跟依附人員現在是誰卡住了總預算?不就是民進黨違法在先嗎?這剛好啊!這以前民進黨常常贏的啊!這送回去程序委員會啊!該補的補好啊!"},{"start":9421.155,"end":9422.536,"text":"民進黨沒有一個人舉手反對欸那是113個立法院共同的決定欸"},{"start":9449.156,"end":9469.05,"text":"你現在吃西瓜不然要反省嗎?你沒有反對,你用現在反對什麼意思?地質的都要補,農業部本來不就是應該照顧最基層、最善良、最弱勢的農民嗎?那我現在變成都不站出來的,你反對嗎?你補什麼?什麼一集二?二轉三加三?農民說聽不到啊!"},{"start":9470.373,"end":9477.815,"text":"而且根本就是舊的酒去裝在新瓶裏面（還是舊的酒啊!你五十幾噸都沒人給你… 農民都沒愛啊!你不要拿出來!草生的東西都拿出來!啊農民那你辛苦!十三年沒有條!政客現在說什麼?那是一分錢!沒錢!辛苦八噸!賺的錢都還不過去包一個紅白包一包!"},{"start":9496.545,"end":9500.688,"text":"一分多沒用半年一起做有時候還賺不到兩千塊你怎麼忍心這樣欺負農民呢第一個從法律面來講立法院過的你該編了而且有慣例啊剛剛家俊講了調過兩次了嘛美國一百年那個一公斤調高三塊錢就是立法院通過之後行政部分就編了嘛你為什麼把這個慣例要推翻掉"},{"start":9525.08,"end":9538.132,"text":"我這個民進黨真的反對不要兩手這個手法啦你們就公開出來從總統行政院長到立法院黨團講清楚你們就是覺得農民不該領這個錢十三年沒調啦為什麼不調呢工資也漲了物價也漲了軍工價都調薪調了五次了勞工的基本工資已經調了幾次了憑什麼最弱勢的農民不照顧呢"},{"start":9551.052,"end":9562.772,"text":"我這個民進黨如果繼續反對 那你們就公開出來講你們反對這個農民 姑娘說過是不能調的要不然的話 拜託一下依照立法院通過的 當初你們沒有一個人反對好不好"},{"start":9564.343,"end":9586.093,"text":"趕快趕快通過這個法不是是你民進黨把預算卡住了你們趕快把它補好而且方法太多了把它補齊要把追加預算馬上就可以解決問題預算就趕快審要不然的話造成所有人民的福利跟建設停擺的不是在野黨是民進黨把預算卡住了謝謝謝謝張啟凱委員的發言紅色漢 中嘉賓委員要針對公良發言哈欠"},{"start":9595.98,"end":9618.469,"text":"其實針對公糧收購的價格或者是照顧農民的這個議題其實我想現在農業部是做足了非常多的準備那當然大家剛才都講到一計二轉三加三那事實上民進黨團其實也請教了很多農業界、食物界的專家確實都認為所謂公糧收購價格直接提高五塊的這個做法"},{"start":9619.269,"end":9647.814,"text":"看起來好像農民有受益可是幾乎絕大多數的專家都提醒這個做法的副作用很多為什麼行政部門或農業部對於這個做法一直存在著覺得需要再多討論的狀態就是因為擔憂到這個做法後續的副作用我們作為一個負責任的政治人物不能只看短不看長"},{"start":9649.529,"end":9670.148,"text":"我要再說一次一個負責任的政治人物不能只看短不看長所以這是為什麼也很多專業界的朋友告訴我們也許一級二轉三加三有可以再優化的空間如何做的可以讓農民更有感這件事情朝野可以一起來監督行政部門"},{"start":9671.149,"end":9680.116,"text":"但這是一個比較長期建立可長可久的機制相對是比較健康的機制我還是必須要講這是第一點第二點"},{"start":9681.697,"end":9710.465,"text":"我們都希望照顧農民而且都希望大力的照顧農民紅委員你請教的是專家不是農民欸欸欸對不起欸那個要發言請特定學校主席啊好請繼續紅委員請繼續我們也請教了農民也請教了專業界也請教了食物界的食物的工作者每個農民都是食物工作者我們也請教都請教了齁那大家也清楚我們是立法委員當時在立法院做成這個決議的形式其實是用一個主決議的形式"},{"start":9711.465,"end":9734.838,"text":"其實我們都心裡都非常清楚這個組決議的形式如果禁制要求增加預算的話這些事情跟在憲法裡面釋字264的釋字是有高度的違憲的疑慮的當初沒有意見的意思我必須說這個我們事後還是必須來回"},{"start":9736.28,"end":9750.337,"text":"我們事後還是必須來檢討它在法制上面的釋法性的這個層次但我就實質面來講這個決議我們並不能夠說今天只要行政部門不照著這個決議來做這些事情就叫做違法剛剛齊凱委員一直說"},{"start":9754.144,"end":9777.614,"text":"沒有按照當初的這個決議做就叫做違法行政部門違法我想這個敘述恐怕是有蠻大的問題所以我最後我再一次的review這個問題我們今天在這場協商很重要的關鍵是我們要一起來尋找怎麼樣子能夠讓我們的總預算往前走的共識我想這部分韓院長很清楚"},{"start":9778.703,"end":9804.57,"text":"所以我們在這裡面是想辦法求同存異 排除障礙 排除我們的總預算能夠往前進入到審查 包括附委我們一起來解決 把這個結給解開這是我們今天在這個地方 非常非常重要的目的所以我自己是希望 今天單案針對怎麼照顧農民的問題我們大家可以各自表述 這部分我們都尊重"},{"start":9805.629,"end":9826.015,"text":"大家可以各自表述我們都尊重大家一起來尋找對農民好的方法大家一起來講我們這都尊重不用誰去否定誰但我今天要說的事情是我們還是希望在我們今天這場協商裡面我們可以回到原本的總預算的這個問題我知道這韓院長也是非常非常關注這件事情以上 謝謝"},{"start":9826.835,"end":9835.338,"text":"謝謝我們鍾嘉賓委員發言,請好,謝謝院長,因為剛剛看到說公糧收購也是我們預算協商聽起來,要說佛羅圭這裡是代表農民,我們屏東也是農業館所以我想,來這裡能代表農民的不是在座幾位娘啦首先大家要有一個了解,對於他們,是我們台灣黨的祖母裡面的同大民族"},{"start":9852.003,"end":9864.481,"text":"一百十五萬黨但是不是所有的農民都選中了現在選中的農民不是大家可以交公牛大家都以為是提款、公牛、收工就是在照顧農民、照顧中農錯了"},{"start":9867.025,"end":9889.9,"text":"目前有一個數字,全部高公牛的兩萬三千的,以高公牛為主的五萬五千戶,但是高牛熊的,部分高牛熊為主的五萬,全部高牛熊的十萬,所以說啊,公牛熊剛才的介紹,你說是要照顧到手的農民,不是,是照顧到農,現在是照顧到農,所以說我們看,這個建設,這幾年來做什麼結構,我們的牛是生產,牛米是貴賓的,"},{"start":9897.365,"end":9898.266,"text":"二、國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議．國民黨團提議"},{"start":9922.122,"end":9934.067,"text":"但是你說紐鄉介紹留管．有兩公聘兩角地．他們兩角地就把你請進去．埋研究時代起三課．民職請到一位．結果我們的民用．我們的紐鄉的介紹．存19課．結果做什麼問題．三個問題．第一．"},{"start":9941.107,"end":9953.898,"text":"三、外商糾結））一、立法院首項要由豬牛村內做營養午餐）大家要看得到嗎?兩、用賣的米、用好的米）第三、用人頭去糕公牛）這些東西事實上存在）大家報章顯顯的資料調查都有）所以說不要再批評事實啦）不要說首項介紹條款在照顧農民）不是,是照顧中農）照顧有辦法糕公牛的中農）這些人是接受）"},{"start":9968.59,"end":9973.752,"text":"這沒有事實所以說真的在農業關我們關那些什麼預算我們關那些是現在給各位我們的大委員動調的我們的農產水利50億的預算智商環防45億我們的農業基金29億農營用電差價補助24億"},{"start":9986.778,"end":10001.84,"text":"所以要提醒各位你現在條件這幾項可以增加多少預算要增加一百四百兩這一百四百兩要照顧農民不好意思我們平東關我們需要治山還洪需要冷鏈需要電池的差異步驟以上"},{"start":10004.754,"end":10032.474,"text":"好,謝謝農業縣的立法委員、張家俊委員、丁學忠委員、鍾嘉斌委員跟張祺凱委員共同關心我們農民稻谷收購但是我還是要回到我們今天我們黨團協商對不起,中央政府總預算我們主旋律裡面請各位委員能夠一人發言大家表達心意好不好好,在這裡我嘗試各黨團幹部還有剛才所有原住民委員的發言我嘗試做一個"},{"start":10034.897,"end":10039.482,"text":"結論就教予各位黨團幹部跟各位原住民的委員同仁"},{"start":10040.984,"end":10064.82,"text":"大家有意見的話可以修正若沒有意見的話我來宣讀給大家聽聽看一、跟大家說明行政院對立法院負責這次憲法規定有關禁法補償爭議涉及已由總統名利公佈施行之法律該法律明定之法定義務之初行政院在其編列之預算案中卻沒有依法律編列的爭議"},{"start":10066.101,"end":10095.444,"text":"二、席內就此若沒有正式回應（這牽扯到兩院未來的互動機制和民主的運作（是知識體大三、由於我們已經協商多次（目前因為少編兩萬元（因此在這裡我們多次的黨團協商（主計長所提的解決方案（各黨團仍有不同看法由於預算案之編制依預算法及本院總預算案審查程序等相關規定必須"},{"start":10097.438,"end":10113.848,"text":"必須經過行政院院長、主席長還有財政部部長來立法院進行編制報告並備諮詢我們是不是應該讓行政院有一個正式回應的機會是,我們定一個時間"},{"start":10115.421,"end":10142.403,"text":"二、邀請行政院長率同財主單位來立法院進行編制情況．情形再由本院委員會進行有關諮詢．詢答完畢之後．我們再依各黨團的提議．交由院會處理．來進行本案的後續處理五、目前有一個草稿馬上發到各黨團幹部手上．請各黨團幹部來"},{"start":10145.43,"end":10146.354,"text":"仔細閱覽一下來念一下"},{"start":10158.277,"end":10186.732,"text":"一、竹記長所提補足原住民進法補償預算處理之解決方案本案由原民會辦理進法補償相關事宜實際執行經費若有不敷可由原住民民族綜合發展基金先行之印再於後續年度編列預算歸還動之第二預備金或追加預算等方式辦理相關預算事宜"},{"start":10187.731,"end":10212.157,"text":"二、各黨團同意11月1日 及11月5日 邀請行政院長、主計長、財政部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告《114年度中央政府總預算案》及《中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案》"},{"start":10214.193,"end":10223.481,"text":"編制經過並備質詢（質詢人數由國民黨團推派16位（民進黨團推派16位（臺灣民眾黨團推派3位進行（質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理（名單請於10月31日星期四中午12點前送至議事處會診（當次會議不處理臨時提案（"},{"start":10241.255,"end":10267.862,"text":"三、上開報告應就原住民進法補償、公糧收購及健保點子等預算編制情況並與報告四、有關行政院涵請審議之114年度中央政府總預算案（含附屬單位預算及綜計表．營業及非營業部分．中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案．列入11月1日星期五院會報告事項"},{"start":10270.672,"end":10285.705,"text":"五、請財政委員會10月31日星期四下午5點前將總預算案審查日程及分配表送交議事處,以立11月1日星期五院會之報告以上,協商結論這5點前,各黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見請發言一、首先請吳思瑤幹事長發言"},{"start":10291.737,"end":10315.594,"text":"謝謝院長試圖來做總預算的解決方案來提出一些結論但是既然是協商結論我們要非常慎重因為這都會攸關我們是不是在一個正確的處理程序以及對於立委對審議預算期間或者是修法期間那行使的這個預算審議權是不是有過當來嚴重侵害到行政權的問題都要一併處理"},{"start":10321.184,"end":10334.739,"text":"我先跟院長講兩件事我先從您的第二大點裡頭就是舊程序面來講如果說各黨同意要進行安排進入預算的質詢"},{"start":10337.021,"end":10361.351,"text":"以往例,您的時間應當是11月1日、5日當然時間大家可以來討論要各部會來,您這邊我們這次有四個預算案但是有三個預算案要報告一個是總預算,一個是前瞻建設然後其實還有一個台電的追加預算所以本黨從第一次這個會期的第一次協商我們就希望是三個預算案都能夠排時間"},{"start":10362.871,"end":10389.647,"text":"這是第一件事情當然如果院長覺得說我們要總預算加前瞻先來這我們大家來談但是以往例過去每一次在開議預算會期在協商決定總預算報告的時程以及附委審查的時程應當都會在報告時間定下來之後也會很清楚的來明定各黨的發言人數"},{"start":10390.768,"end":10407.771,"text":"以及關鍵字在這裡（尋答結束交付審查（各黨團同意不提出複議（這個不是我今天提出來（這是例次每一次預算會期進行預算的報告案"},{"start":10408.891,"end":10429.229,"text":"必然的程序這是過去以來的程序沒有變過換言之今天是不是請求院長第二點的部分如果要具體排入這個預算的審查期程第一個我們還是希望爭取台電追加減的預算因為這一次是三個預算案一次要報告要把它放進去"},{"start":10430.49,"end":10454.944,"text":"二、巡達結束後．復委交付審查．各黨團不再提復議．這是必然的回過頭來也要徵得院長的理解跟說明其實針對今天決定事項的第一項主計長所提針對禁法補償的這件事情的解決方案"},{"start":10456.181,"end":10459.102,"text":"主要是來自於對於《憲法》、《預算法》、《財政紀律法》、《財化法》相關規定的認知不同"},{"start":10477.17,"end":10500.682,"text":"但是立法委員也要依法行政韓國瑜院長領導的立法院也要依法來進行所以說是不是能夠在第一項裡頭也應當把行政部門非常在意也是多次的提出來的就是立法委員所提法律案大幅增加稅出或減少稅入者應先徵詢行政機關意見"},{"start":10503.023,"end":10519.895,"text":"並指明彌補資金來源．因此行政立法基於互相尊重．我們共同來補正建行上開的必要程序我覺得有這個前提．然後才會有針對原住民進法補償．這個新年度114年怎麼邊轉"},{"start":10521.156,"end":10521.316,"text":"主席"},{"start":10537.618,"end":10537.898,"text":"主席"},{"start":10558.653,"end":10582.988,"text":"預算解決的方案那第二點希望循過去的往例謝謝院長協助讓總預算如果能夠進入排審、循答那他必然也會在循答結束後交付委員會審查各黨團不再提復議這個是必要的程序謝謝民進黨團幹事長吳思堯的發言接下來我們請國民黨團林思堯署長請發言"},{"start":10586.117,"end":10594.12,"text":"林士明署長請發言謝謝院長對於這個協商結論我們針對第一點第一點對於主席長的意見雖然寫在第一點但是實際上我們各黨團認為達成協商的一個共識所以我們希望在第一點的最後加上幾個文字就是說各黨團尚無共識這是第一點"},{"start":10612.947,"end":10616.548,"text":"第二點對於11月1日和11月5日邀請院長來做預算編制的報告基本上我們是沒有意見推派人數也沒有意見,諮詢順序由授權議事處辦理"},{"start":10633.112,"end":10636.879,"text":"但是我們對於說該不是要幹事長講說要把台電的預算一併來納入這個部分我想因為我們是不同意我想這個是兩回事"},{"start":10645.015,"end":10657.565,"text":"另外所不得再提附議,我想這部分也是我們愛南接受的。我們還沒有達成共識,還沒有達成共識,我們還沒有達成共識,那是說,選答完畢之後,當然我們沒有所謂的就直接交付審查的問題,"},{"start":10669.915,"end":10694.402,"text":"我想我們還是要經過我們聽了我們行政院長對預算編制的情形之後那我們再來決定是不是還要交付委員會來審查那其他就這個其他幾個事項我想大概我們是沒有什麼意見的所以我就是做這樣的表示以上謝謝好請台灣民眾黨發言"},{"start":10699.766,"end":10725.845,"text":"謝謝院長理解院長希望事情往前推進的苦心只是我剛剛看到那個書面剛剛院長在台上其實我覺得念了一段蠻鄭重的文字對於到目前為止所為什麼發生這些爭議您算是一個蠻中立的立場所做的一個客觀的描述那個客觀的描述是不是也應該把它放在前面"},{"start":10727.626,"end":10751.875,"text":"因為可能在不同的黨團在這件事情上面的看法完全不一樣民進黨黨團站在的是行政院的立場但立法院我們站的立場是立法院的立場什麼是立法院的立場今天又走到這一步事情的根源要講清楚就是行政院沒有依法編列預算嘛事情就這麼簡單"},{"start":10754.11,"end":10779.643,"text":"禁法補償條例是不是現在三讀有效通過的法律?是啊這個是一個客觀的法秩序行政院沒有依法編列預算要立法院怎麼進入實質的審議程序這才是問題的根源第二個部分是院長的苦心心要往前推進先請他來報告"},{"start":10781.798,"end":10809.306,"text":"報告你這個預算到底是怎麼編的嗎?特別是針對禁法補償、公糧收購還有健保點子嗎?這一定要給立法院一個清楚的回應所以我基本上就是說對於院長希望往前推進這件事情我了解你的苦心所以我也不願意再添加太多的前提讓你推進的苦心越來越困難"},{"start":10811.427,"end":10826.442,"text":"對那不過我覺得你前面齁剛剛在台上我相信你應該是有準備一個正式的稿子啦你所做的那個宣告我覺得如果合宜的話也可以把它放在協商的結論文字當中OK民進黨團請二人發言"},{"start":10836.226,"end":10836.788,"text":"林蔡書記長好謝謝院長"},{"start":10842.199,"end":10866.15,"text":"那針對剛剛院長所裁示的這一個是你的協商結論那剛剛事實上國民黨有希望加注那這個民眾黨黃總召也有說有希望文字那我們民進黨所堅持的就是國家不管是行政、立法他在編列財政的時候財政紀律是一個很重要的考量"},{"start":10866.61,"end":10882.646,"text":"所以我們還是希望．可以加注說．未來立法委員所提的法案．它大幅增加稅出或減少收入者．應先徵詢行政機關意見．並指明資金來源．行政立法互相尊重"},{"start":10883.487,"end":10909.085,"text":"然後我們可以共同來補正進行上開的必要程序這個是我們堅持可以在第一段裡面也加入民進黨團有這樣的一個立場因為國民黨剛剛有說各黨團尚無共識所以如果國民黨要加這樣的文字那把民進黨的這個文字放在第一段那應該也沒有關係否則我還有第二個建議就是說因為我們第三段就有講到"},{"start":10909.986,"end":10928.312,"text":"上開報告應就原住民進法補償、公糧收購及健保點子等預算編制處理情形並與報告那既然第三段已經講到了要並與報告那我們是不是在這個協商結論我們就不用第一段我們直接就把第二段"},{"start":10929.112,"end":10952.641,"text":"當作是我們大家共同要讓總預算可以往前一步的一個初步的一個共識但是就這一個院長所排定的這樣的一個日期我們還是希望國民黨可以說至少在我們這個地方可以口頭上就好可以說同意說我們審查後讓他交付委員會審查"},{"start":10955.658,"end":10964.646,"text":"要放文字否則我覺得打開天窗說亮話你們這樣只是做了讓大家去推派然後去做質詢之後那你們繼續去不讓它復違這樣也還是騙人的我們總預算還是會卡住所以我覺得至少在這個地方我們還是希望國民黨、民眾黨你們可以把"},{"start":10978.377,"end":10991.356,"text":"讓他交付委員會這件事情（也把它並入文字裡面（作為協商結論（那讓我們至少有信心（我們接下來（可以好好的來進行我們明年度的總預算的審查了（謝謝"},{"start":10995.779,"end":10999.78,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝院長用心良苦希望在我們現在其實焦灼滿久而且民進黨團也一直在強調說要趕快能夠有一些進程能進入審查所做的努力在這邊先感謝院長至於就是在文字的部分"},{"start":11022.528,"end":11037.514,"text":"現在看起來其實如果大家基本的共識都是希望讓我們中央政府總預算的審查能夠往前一步的話那我必須講大家就不要在文字上還要想來佔一點點便宜或者說我們口頭來承諾說這個"},{"start":11047.83,"end":11048.67,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":11072.871,"end":11078.58,"text":"所以基本上在國民黨團來說的話其實剛才呼應一下剛才黃總召所說的就是剛才院長所講的文字我覺得我們可以把它放到我們最後的這個協商結論裡面"},{"start":11089.716,"end":11095.859,"text":"這就是第一段的部分我覺得大家是可以來做一些商量因為目前確實他並沒有什麼樣的共識但是在這邊我們還是會比較堅持就是大家願意共進一步因為事實上以目前來說確實行政院並沒有"},{"start":11110.788,"end":11123.439,"text":"提出一個合理（而且讓我們原住民（朋友或者是農民（跟醫護人員安心的一個解決的方案（那在這樣的狀況之下（那麼我們願意讓行政院院長團隊（能夠再來做一些報告（就是也是有一些補考的機會（然後大家再來做溝通協商（"},{"start":11135.629,"end":11151.482,"text":"所以這都是在野黨其實都已經釋出最高最高的善意其實老師說了包含剛才我們三位的這個這個包含我們嘉峻委員、學中委員還有那個齊凱委員所提的"},{"start":11153.323,"end":11156.025,"text":"老實講啊那個蔡書記長其實當時你在選舉的政見我不曉得你是不是忘記你選舉公報的政見其實我們這幾位委員也是實踐"},{"start":11168.635,"end":11170.757,"text":"當時你在選舉公報裏的政見所以我們很希望的是能夠讓整個的這個進程往前走一些但是我們仍然有一些原則的問題我們再給行政院一些時間我們這樣是可以齊頭並行 對不對這樣齊頭並行這就是院長的用心良苦"},{"start":11191.796,"end":11195.238,"text":"我們一直交錯在這邊,我們在一直開會,然後大家各說各話那其實完全也不符合民進黨團的想法嘛,不是一直希望說我們能進入報告,能進入審查如果今天的報告,我們經過報告之後,有助於這個審查的話"},{"start":11211.969,"end":11217.711,"text":"自然就會往前走啦不要對自己這樣的沒有信心啦不要對行政院這麼樣沒有信心所以基本上我覺得剛才所提到的一些協商結論大體上我們都是支持的那我們也希望民進黨團說到做到既然希望"},{"start":11231.676,"end":11231.976,"text":"基本上﹖"},{"start":11255.819,"end":11279.632,"text":"我臺灣民眾黨團體會到院長的苦心你需要往前邁進嘛先讓他來報告嘛說清楚那三件事情到底要怎麼處理嘛那往前邁進少一點其他的要件我們基本上都尊重院長在這個範圍裡面一個裁決的空間那其他的話我就先不要再講了"},{"start":11284.299,"end":11300.867,"text":"現在各黨團已經二輪發言完畢我知道,但是我誠懇的建議大家都可以感覺到我用心良苦對不對我們針對這個協商結論同意簽字還是不同意簽字我這裡有"},{"start":11301.727,"end":11316.437,"text":"同意簽字簽字我們就這樣的處理不同意簽字我們要約約還有最後的發言也許大家越來越接近了我提醒一下嘛就大家還是聚焦在這裡那不管是其他就暫時好請吳思瑤委員三次發言"},{"start":11317.117,"end":11319.779,"text":"第一點乾脆都不要寫了第一點乾脆都不要寫了"},{"start":11340.771,"end":11345.194,"text":"然後第二點呢（針對時程的部分（我要再次強調（過去歷次在協商總預算的"},{"start":11353.68,"end":11359.185,"text":"有關公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案．公職人員選舉法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":11381.087,"end":11394.675,"text":"報告完畢（然後交付審查（然後各黨同意不提附議（沒關係（這個東西（我也同意往前推一步（先進行報告（也沒有關係關係（但是（大家不要忘了（社會都在看（如果（大家希望能夠（真的讓它推進（就是後續（不要再卡審查的時間（不落文字（我也（我們也可以勉強接受（但是（"},{"start":11410.307,"end":11439.266,"text":"但是不要用這種話術我們希望大家是真心推進就是真的推進而不是先進行詢答之後在野黨的委員繼續卡預算不讓他交付審查大家君子我們的前提我們認為報告完依過去的慣例就是會交付審查所以如果未來在野黨委員在那個報告完之後還黨我希望不要發生這樣的事情"},{"start":11440.086,"end":11464.863,"text":"所以這是我們最終大家compromise我們都希望總預算不要再擋的這個前提那針對禁法補償如果要落第一段的文字那我們有我們堅持的就是這不是誰的政黨意見這是國家應當捍衛的憲政精神所以對於禁法補償的處理跟這個前提大家如果沒有共識那第一點可以不要寫我們今天就是讓總預算前進"},{"start":11466.784,"end":11480.135,"text":"然後後面有個向開報告就這幾項事情的編傳情形就是第三點確實是可以在報告當中請行政部門再說服他們的各個方案說服給在野黨的委員聽我們也認同這是我們真的覺得誠心誠意就是交付總預算的諮詢然後希望未來順利的交付審查"},{"start":11491.809,"end":11507.245,"text":"那一位剛剛有點到蔡易瑜委員我覺得這是人家的這個個人生意的問題那剛剛有點名 紅衛委員有攻擊到他 讓他回應一下嘛我主席來做決定嘛好不好各位黨團幹部有兩點報告第一"},{"start":11507.725,"end":11521.522,"text":"等下針對我們中央政府總預算．行政院長．帥柴族單位來報告完畢之後．我們立法院處理的情況．我們會請高處長講一、兩個．我們過去發生的．真實的一個案例．第二,蔡議員．蔡書記長提出權宜問題．我要徵詢國民黨跟臺灣民眾黨團．他說,請"},{"start":11526.869,"end":11549.008,"text":"他剛剛是直接點名我,希望我回應啊沒有沒有沒有,我想再補充一下,因為剛才施堯他對地點有意見沒有,大家現在就直接講一講啦,我們也不再休想講了我簡單回應一下沒有,我們先讓他發言啊我知道我知道,大家都有很多話要講"},{"start":11552.66,"end":11579.934,"text":"第一點我是覺得說留著也無妨第一點留著無妨就是說第一點是主席長他的意見主席長的意見我覺得我們還是要把他顯示出來這是我們在整個協商過程中主席長講的意見所以第一點你要希望保留對 因為各黨團沒有達成共識我們就是這個據實把它顯示出來所以這一點我是覺得沒有必要拿掉"},{"start":11581.144,"end":11582.968,"text":"黃國昌總統舉手請三次發言"},{"start":11588.584,"end":11607.776,"text":"因為我覺得院長就大家規則講好就講好就三個黨團的流發言不要有哪一個黨團有其他奇奇怪怪的特權那我再肯定一次院長希望往前推進的苦心那只是在詮釋上面的時候民進黨黨團的詮釋剛剛他們的黨團代表有說明"},{"start":11612.519,"end":11634.838,"text":"我們的詮釋是什麼我們的詮釋是行政院院長你好好的來報告報告你這個總預算怎麼會編成這個樣子三讀通過的法律你為什麼沒有編預算我希望聽行政院院長親自來跟全國人民解釋他把立法院三讀通過的東西當什麼所以不要再說在野黨在卡預算"},{"start":11636.111,"end":11642.992,"text":"這卡預算的是誰?這卡預算的是卓榮泰啊!為什麼我說卓榮泰在卡預算?你沒有依法編列預算嘛!"},{"start":11645.165,"end":11673.011,"text":"我希望不要發生這樣子的事情我真的希望不要發生這樣的事情請卓永泰好好地編預算你好好的編預算 立法院就好好審這有什麼問題呢解零還需細零人嘛對不對民進黨可以有民進黨的解釋有他們的立場各個黨團都有各個黨團的立場每個人一次輪流發言很公平誰也不用有特權以上"},{"start":11673.952,"end":11674.755,"text":"好 我們休息十分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":12032.758,"end":12059.493,"text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐好嗎來我們因為這個謝謝啊現在已經時間很晚了進行將近三個小時了那現在我們把立法院黨團協商結論今天整個協商結論從五條刪除第一條濃縮成四條在各位的手上我想我就不再念了因為都已經在手上大家已經念過了大家如果沒有意見我們現在就來簽字好嗎好"},{"start":12061.67,"end":12075.508,"text":"我來簽字也請各黨團幹部我們一起來簽字好嗎好另外一點這個選罷法的因為時間的關係我們就擇期再議好請大家簽字"},{"start":12080.407,"end":12094.492,"text":"如果各位黨團幹部都同意簽字之後我們今天會議我們特別謝謝主席長還有各位列席的官員非常感謝你們今天下午寶貴的一個下午也謝謝各位黨團幹部那我們就散會"}]}},{"id":"156095","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156095","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b85115d88db411223bee181499f78d530ce0a1e5c1d8db796ce5da3b85f5c283a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:54:53 - 10:59:57","影片長度":"00:05:04","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T10:54:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T10:59:57+08:00","duration":304,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.156593750000001,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.23971875,"end":73.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.39909375,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.28909375,"end":109.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.17846875000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.39346875000001,"end":128.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.65221875,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.62471875,"end":262.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.33159375,"end":281.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.97846875,"end":295.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.17784375,"end":303.78096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.564,"end":21.453,"text":"謝謝主席今天很多的專業專家都提供了我們地方民意代表包含立法委員也是責成了很多地方縣市的所有表達的一些意向包含國土計畫法的現在的一個推行的一些政策的不滿"},{"start":28.278,"end":39.067,"text":"國土計畫法的45條包含原稽法的各法條裡面有沒有充足有沒有提出有沒有其他的對原住民的保障這是一個非常恣意的問題"},{"start":41.329,"end":58.395,"text":"本席在這個地方特別要提出的是先完成原住民的土地及海域的劃分法徹底解決原住民族人的土地的問題再實行國土計畫後再來研究國土計畫裡面的條文必須要明確"},{"start":60.055,"end":61.156,"text":"國土計畫法宣言"},{"start":74.428,"end":74.848,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":103.505,"end":119.054,"text":"這跟一般延長的方式不一樣那很多減稅或補貼的方案都是會寫清楚延長的時間但行政院這樣子來寫一定期限好像"},{"start":119.554,"end":122.315,"text":"國土計畫法的45條有沒有衝突到原住民的保障法第一個剛剛我聽到專家對"},{"start":137.459,"end":155.994,"text":"對我們全國原住民的住宅合法性有些沒有辦法合法性能夠在14萬14萬棟裡面那便能進行全面建立的來做合法沒有錯這是一條但是有很多條我們必須要討論我們請人民會來給我一個書面的一個答案我今天要請教我們有關於國土計畫法"},{"start":164.081,"end":168.186,"text":"對原住民土地的產生什麼影響第一個國土計畫"},{"start":169.99,"end":195.831,"text":"為原住民土地帶來什麼樣的改變?第二,原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決?第三,國土功能分區有包含原住民傳統海域及使用範圍嗎?第四,原住民的土地、海域及居住正義的問題解決之前為何強推國土計畫法?"},{"start":196.371,"end":218.638,"text":"第五國土計畫法以原住民的傳統領域劃分的問題能夠有解決的問題嗎第六國土功能分析劃設後原住民土地還能調整嗎第七國土計畫通過之後原住民土地是否無法自治第八"},{"start":219.558,"end":239.935,"text":"國土計畫如何規範原住民土地的建筆力與容積力第九哪些土地功能分析分裂可以蓋原住民的傳統文化建築第十原住民傳統耕作灌輸專期是否受到國土計畫法的限制"},{"start":241.675,"end":262.284,"text":"11元族民族特定區域計畫是否受到國土計畫法的限制12國土功能分析劃設後會影響地價稅嗎13國土計畫會影響既有造林補助及禁法補償的資格嗎以上這是種種的問題都還沒有解決之下"},{"start":263.376,"end":264.016,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":283.449,"end":294.859,"text":"同意會審後再推行而不是衝突衝突以縣市裏面的意見作為你們最後的決定要執行的以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156127","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156127","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b924b8470a0b9d509bee181499f78d5305966be1ac5b6e0f911952e407ee502b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:16:26 - 11:23:21","影片長度":"00:06:55","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:16:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:23:21+08:00","duration":415,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.020968750000002,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.72534375,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":16.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.00721875,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.234718750000003,"end":21.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.59721875,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.457843750000002,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.57971875,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.80721875,"end":36.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.49784375,"end":41.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.408468750000004,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.96909375,"end":52.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.001593750000005,"end":62.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.49784375,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.03784375000001,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.01659375,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.47096875,"end":74.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.53409375000001,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.21284375,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.00971875,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.23721875000001,"end":90.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.34159375,"end":100.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.58909375,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.08596875,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.29096875,"end":135.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.00971875000002,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.58659375000002,"end":149.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.91471875000002,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.04471875000002,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.07096875000002,"end":193.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.05971875,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.44659375,"end":212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.34784375,"end":218.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.27596875,"end":214.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.52846875,"end":223.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.57409375,"end":228.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.48471875,"end":231.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.64034375000003,"end":235.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.77471875,"end":242.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.45284375000003,"end":246.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.08096875,"end":253.54409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.84784375,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.75346875,"end":271.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.08971875000003,"end":274.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.62096875000003,"end":286.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.73721875,"end":290.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.61846875000003,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.14159375,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.19596875,"end":294.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.37721875,"end":296.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.01409375000003,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.84096875,"end":302.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.81909375000004,"end":327.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.65909375,"end":328.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.58721875000003,"end":331.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.28284375000004,"end":336.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.41721875,"end":339.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.87659375000004,"end":340.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.73721875,"end":342.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.33596875,"end":347.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.52096875,"end":357.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.01721875000004,"end":364.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.85159375,"end":372.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.46221875000003,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.67596875000004,"end":383.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.81909375000004,"end":384.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.01721875000004,"end":387.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.43034375,"end":392.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.26909375,"end":393.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.87659375000004,"end":396.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.11659375000005,"end":403.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.03534375000004,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.52034375000005,"end":407.93346875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.389,"end":26.257,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝首先在這裡先跟我們台大那個張宏浩教授致謝因為本席來自於台南我的選區都是絕大部分是農業那其實"},{"start":27.827,"end":30.13,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案提出的農地規劃 農地的價錢 這也是在國土計畫法大家所關心的"},{"start":44.986,"end":45.286,"text":"賴慧琳議員"},{"start":63.519,"end":64.4,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽委員"},{"start":84.275,"end":84.395,"text":"賴惠員賴惠員"},{"start":107.919,"end":132.812,"text":"選舉顯然是落空啦顯然是落空所以是不是有貼近地方的一個需求這個就是說我們必須要就是在國土計畫法裡頭對於地方的一個需求那可以更接近那貼近民意那各個縣市的國土功能的一個區分那進度我們知道嚴重的落後到目前為止就是說我這個資料裡頭顯然就是說"},{"start":136.614,"end":138.015,"text":"國民黨的縣市政府"},{"start":165.524,"end":180.652,"text":"中央也需要有一些時間來整合,那是不是就是說針對我們修正第45條,那在這裡本席是建議國土署是不是都市型的先走"},{"start":181.272,"end":182.133,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽委員"},{"start":202.855,"end":226.809,"text":"本席的選區在台南市那台南市在這一次就是台米颱風就是因為有一些農地受到很嚴重的損害那我的後壁還有60公頃的農地被這一次巴掌溪的一個潰堤它所遺跡帶來的這些泥沙掩蓋到目前我們還在進行災後的復原跟再重新策劃的一個階段"},{"start":231.812,"end":232.173,"text":"賴慧淑儀委員"},{"start":243.673,"end":244.073,"text":"國土計畫法與地方花展必須緊密"},{"start":264.484,"end":289.339,"text":"當然現階段就是台南的大新營區的一個科技產業的一個發展包括就是我的柳科第三期還有經濟部工研院在六甲區是不是有辦法變為是一個機器人的產業園區還有就是大新營科技產業上下游的一個工研鏈的一個發展的潛力這些建設其實不僅是在南台灣它"},{"start":290.72,"end":292.342,"text":"國土工能規劃分區規劃有沒有跟國家的整體規劃地方的產業需求"},{"start":315.182,"end":315.482,"text":"19.3是國土保育區"},{"start":341.61,"end":363.466,"text":"51.9是龍一龍二區超過71.2的土地其實是沒有辦法變更的那台南的產業發展會不會受影響絕對是受影響的嘛所以我也希望就是說在考量未來大新營地區的一個產業發展的趨勢它必須要加速發展的前提之下我們希望就是功能分區的一個規劃"},{"start":364.907,"end":392.514,"text":"可以更貼近地方的一個發展的一個趨勢當然我一再的強調就是說大型科技產業的S郎代這個關鍵的一個拼圖跟地方產業的一個轉型跟國土計畫規劃法其實都有年代的一個重要的一個關鍵性關聯性所以我想就是這個婚期的規劃其實就決定我們地方發展的一個命運"},{"start":397.196,"end":405.24,"text":"展示各地的一個發展的潛力跟競爭力大家必須要就是真正的就是非常的貼切然後才可以促進我們台灣的永續發展謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16202","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e5998180c4b1e7cf49b5fa2f296a935346059d4d42a7fce219f5ea98fae4046b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:46:00+08:00","duration":18961,"影片長度":"05:16:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 13:46:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":131.92596875,"end":133.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":134.81159375000001,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1805.26784375,"end":1806.7359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1807.36034375,"end":1810.1447187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1813.68846875,"end":1815.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1816.08471875,"end":1818.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1821.5184687500002,"end":1826.8509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1827.47534375,"end":1828.2684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1828.9772187500002,"end":1835.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1830.4790937500002,"end":1830.9009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1835.7272187500002,"end":1859.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1860.7697187500003,"end":1862.3222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1863.0309687500003,"end":1884.6309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1884.7828437500002,"end":1889.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1889.91284375,"end":1894.8065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1895.3803437500003,"end":1907.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1908.2222187500001,"end":1911.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1912.12034375,"end":1917.4190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1918.4147187500002,"end":1935.0197187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1935.3065937500003,"end":1941.0440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1941.3984687500001,"end":1954.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1954.59471875,"end":1975.8909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1976.5153437500003,"end":1979.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1980.6497187500001,"end":1992.3609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1993.9472187500003,"end":1995.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1995.80346875,"end":1998.0140937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1998.3853437500002,"end":1998.7397187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1999.17846875,"end":2000.7815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2001.0515937500002,"end":2001.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2001.99659375,"end":2004.3422187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2005.0678437500003,"end":2008.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2009.3372187500001,"end":2015.8509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2016.1715937500003,"end":2028.3553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2029.5872187500001,"end":2034.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2034.8859687500003,"end":2036.0672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2036.3203437500001,"end":2040.0497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2040.2690937500001,"end":2045.9897187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2046.3440937500002,"end":2052.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2052.60471875,"end":2055.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2056.11471875,"end":2056.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2057.1778437499997,"end":2058.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2060.1140937500004,"end":2060.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2060.70471875,"end":2063.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2064.2147187500004,"end":2067.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2067.92721875,"end":2070.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2071.5553437500002,"end":2071.9434687499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2072.7703437500004,"end":2076.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2078.23784375,"end":2080.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2081.2078437500004,"end":2082.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2083.0134687500004,"end":2087.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2087.73846875,"end":2089.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2090.45534375,"end":2091.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2091.78846875,"end":2094.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2095.41659375,"end":2096.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2097.2897187500002,"end":2098.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2098.90971875,"end":2100.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2101.62659375,"end":2102.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2102.7234687500004,"end":2104.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2105.28846875,"end":2106.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2106.50346875,"end":2111.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2111.97096875,"end":2112.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2113.3209687500002,"end":2113.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2114.3672187500006,"end":2115.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2117.35409375,"end":2117.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2118.43409375,"end":2121.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2121.48846875,"end":2124.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2125.3359687500006,"end":2125.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2126.98971875,"end":2128.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2129.47034375,"end":2130.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2130.97221875,"end":2136.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2137.09784375,"end":2138.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2138.2959687500006,"end":2142.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2142.6159687500003,"end":2143.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2143.6622187500006,"end":2145.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2147.77971875,"end":2149.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2151.34034375,"end":2152.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2152.9772187500002,"end":2153.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2153.2303437500004,"end":2154.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2155.32284375,"end":2156.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2158.6472187500003,"end":2160.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2161.02659375,"end":2161.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2162.1572187500005,"end":2165.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2165.8190937500003,"end":2166.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2166.8653437500006,"end":2168.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2168.94096875,"end":2171.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2171.89409375,"end":2175.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2176.70346875,"end":2179.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2179.9265937500004,"end":2181.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2182.4578437500004,"end":2184.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2187.26721875,"end":2190.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2190.50721875,"end":2190.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2191.8065937500005,"end":2195.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2196.10971875,"end":2196.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2197.30784375,"end":2200.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2201.84721875,"end":2205.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2205.9647187500004,"end":2206.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2207.66909375,"end":2209.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2209.4072187500005,"end":2216.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2216.91659375,"end":2220.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2220.1903437500005,"end":2220.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2222.62034375,"end":2231.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2231.54721875,"end":2236.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2236.86284375,"end":2237.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2237.9765937500006,"end":2242.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2242.9715937500005,"end":2246.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2247.20721875,"end":2249.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2250.24471875,"end":2252.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2257.4840937500003,"end":2260.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2261.4159687500005,"end":2268.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2269.22909375,"end":2273.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2274.08909375,"end":2276.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2276.5528437500006,"end":2277.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2278.20659375,"end":2280.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2281.07534375,"end":2286.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2286.39096875,"end":2288.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2289.04034375,"end":2293.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2294.33909375,"end":2297.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2298.03471875,"end":2299.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2299.7390937500004,"end":2303.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2304.04221875,"end":2305.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2305.5778437500003,"end":2309.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2310.26909375,"end":2311.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2311.45034375,"end":2312.9353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2313.6609687500004,"end":2318.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2318.68971875,"end":2322.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2323.04346875,"end":2325.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2325.7772187500004,"end":2331.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2331.95346875,"end":2336.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2336.6953437500006,"end":2339.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2340.2559687500006,"end":2340.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2340.99846875,"end":2343.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2344.5084687500002,"end":2347.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2347.4278437500006,"end":2351.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2351.47784375,"end":2352.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2352.86159375,"end":2353.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2353.2497187500003,"end":2357.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2357.5528437500006,"end":2376.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2376.9422187500004,"end":2382.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2382.52784375,"end":2388.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2388.78846875,"end":2389.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2389.9697187500005,"end":2392.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2392.93971875,"end":2394.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2395.4540937500005,"end":2398.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2398.49159375,"end":2402.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2402.47409375,"end":2404.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2404.9209687500006,"end":2406.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2407.4522187500006,"end":2411.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2411.62034375,"end":2414.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2415.01221875,"end":2419.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2419.6697187500004,"end":2421.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2422.18409375,"end":2425.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2425.91346875,"end":2430.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2430.43596875,"end":2434.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2435.3465937500005,"end":2436.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2436.9665937500004,"end":2438.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2438.7215937500005,"end":2444.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2444.3747187500003,"end":2445.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2446.02846875,"end":2446.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2447.59784375,"end":2448.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2449.0322187500005,"end":2451.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2451.95159375,"end":2455.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2456.3053437500002,"end":2465.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2465.8903437500003,"end":2472.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2473.1465937500006,"end":2475.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2475.6103437500005,"end":2476.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2476.48784375,"end":2478.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2478.4959687500004,"end":2482.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2482.9003437500005,"end":2488.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2489.0428437500004,"end":2491.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2491.5740937500004,"end":2494.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2494.61159375,"end":2494.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2495.8603437500005,"end":2500.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2500.93971875,"end":2506.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2507.1328437500006,"end":2508.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2509.0565937500005,"end":2509.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2509.5965937500005,"end":2511.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2511.4022187500004,"end":2513.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2513.89971875,"end":2514.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2514.9628437500005,"end":2519.6540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2519.73846875,"end":2523.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2523.2653437500003,"end":2524.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2524.51409375,"end":2528.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2529.32346875,"end":2530.9940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2531.24721875,"end":2532.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2532.4453437500006,"end":2535.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2535.55034375,"end":2536.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2537.2040937500005,"end":2539.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2540.3259687500004,"end":2541.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2542.23284375,"end":2542.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2542.8572187500004,"end":2546.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2546.9747187500006,"end":2550.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2551.2272187500002,"end":2554.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2555.5303437500006,"end":2555.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2556.1884687500005,"end":2558.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2559.15846875,"end":2564.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2565.13221875,"end":2569.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2570.6503437500005,"end":2572.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2574.59909375,"end":2580.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2581.2478437500004,"end":2582.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2583.27284375,"end":2584.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2584.58909375,"end":2587.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2588.26784375,"end":2589.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2590.07346875,"end":2593.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2593.6172187500006,"end":2595.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2595.87846875,"end":2598.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2599.60784375,"end":2600.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2601.27846875,"end":2601.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2602.79721875,"end":2605.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2605.76721875,"end":2610.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2611.3865937500004,"end":2613.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2614.12034375,"end":2615.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2615.8415937500004,"end":2618.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2618.96346875,"end":2621.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2622.22034375,"end":2626.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2626.89471875,"end":2628.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2629.5947187500005,"end":2631.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2631.60284375,"end":2636.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2636.90159375,"end":2640.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2640.34409375,"end":2646.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2647.0772187500006,"end":2648.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2648.29221875,"end":2652.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2652.8990937500002,"end":2653.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2654.1140937500004,"end":2655.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2656.08846875,"end":2656.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2657.33721875,"end":2666.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2666.8209687500002,"end":2673.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2673.80721875,"end":2676.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2676.6084687500006,"end":2676.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2677.2665937500005,"end":2677.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2678.43096875,"end":2679.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2680.2197187500005,"end":2682.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2683.2234687500004,"end":2686.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2686.56471875,"end":2694.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2694.9178437500004,"end":2698.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2699.1365937500004,"end":2700.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2700.73971875,"end":2705.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2705.3972187500003,"end":2708.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2708.7890937500006,"end":2709.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2709.9365937500006,"end":2710.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2710.6453437500004,"end":2715.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2715.4715937500005,"end":2718.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2718.5934687500003,"end":2723.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2723.5547187500006,"end":2727.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2728.51596875,"end":2728.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2729.3934687500005,"end":2733.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2733.94971875,"end":2738.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2738.1853437500004,"end":2741.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2741.40846875,"end":2745.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2746.2009687500004,"end":2748.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2748.88409375,"end":2751.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2751.3815937500003,"end":2751.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2752.0397187500002,"end":2753.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2754.06471875,"end":2759.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2759.78534375,"end":2762.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2762.5865937500002,"end":2766.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2766.7547187500004,"end":2771.4122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2771.61471875,"end":2773.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2773.67346875,"end":2774.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2775.0234687500006,"end":2780.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2780.2715937500006,"end":2783.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2783.73096875,"end":2784.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2784.99659375,"end":2786.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2787.15659375,"end":2792.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2792.69159375,"end":2795.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2796.03284375,"end":2797.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2797.39971875,"end":2799.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2799.99846875,"end":2800.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2800.5722187500005,"end":2801.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2801.5847187500003,"end":2805.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2806.25909375,"end":2810.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2810.3259687500004,"end":2812.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2812.35096875,"end":2815.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2816.1815937500005,"end":2820.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2821.27784375,"end":2823.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2824.5515937500004,"end":2826.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2826.9140937500006,"end":2829.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2829.46221875,"end":2831.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2832.4490937500004,"end":2835.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2836.11096875,"end":2839.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2839.6884687500005,"end":2845.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2846.2022187500006,"end":2848.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2848.9022187500004,"end":2850.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2850.6572187500005,"end":2854.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2854.53846875,"end":2857.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2857.3565937500007,"end":2860.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2860.9509687500004,"end":2861.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2862.01409375,"end":2863.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2864.35971875,"end":2868.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2868.7472187500007,"end":2871.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2871.7509687500005,"end":2872.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2872.7128437500005,"end":2873.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2873.3878437500007,"end":2877.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2877.99471875,"end":2879.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2879.96909375,"end":2880.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2881.18409375,"end":2886.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2887.27596875,"end":2890.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2891.1403437500003,"end":2894.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2895.22409375,"end":2898.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2898.7003437500007,"end":2903.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2903.7628437500007,"end":2909.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2909.7703437500004,"end":2913.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2914.8497187500006,"end":2917.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2917.27971875,"end":2920.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2920.95846875,"end":2924.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2924.2997187500005,"end":2925.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2926.07159375,"end":2934.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2934.0703437500006,"end":2939.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2939.82471875,"end":2947.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2947.8572187500004,"end":2952.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2953.0378437500003,"end":2955.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2956.5478437500005,"end":2957.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2961.44159375,"end":2964.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2975.8359687500006,"end":2987.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2987.42909375,"end":3020.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3020.70659375,"end":3031.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3032.1309687500006,"end":3052.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3052.95471875,"end":3056.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3056.85284375,"end":3059.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3060.05909375,"end":3063.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3063.18096875,"end":3082.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3082.65471875,"end":3098.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3099.39471875,"end":3119.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3119.72909375,"end":3123.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3123.9140937500006,"end":3134.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3135.0684687500006,"end":3145.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3146.0709687500002,"end":3156.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3156.83721875,"end":3183.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3184.3434687500003,"end":3200.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3201.87659375,"end":3203.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3205.72409375,"end":3207.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3207.52971875,"end":3208.2384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3216.86159375,"end":3218.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3218.7009687500004,"end":3222.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3223.30784375,"end":3224.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3225.31596875,"end":3227.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3228.01596875,"end":3228.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3228.9609687500006,"end":3231.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3232.47096875,"end":3234.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3234.59721875,"end":3237.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3238.49534375,"end":3241.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3242.37659375,"end":3245.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3246.4265937500004,"end":3248.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3249.2784687500007,"end":3252.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3252.6872187500003,"end":3253.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3253.9697187500005,"end":3256.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3257.24346875,"end":3259.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3260.1628437500003,"end":3262.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3262.6603437500007,"end":3262.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3263.3015937500004,"end":3265.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3266.3728437500004,"end":3266.8790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3267.3009687500007,"end":3268.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3269.42721875,"end":3269.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3270.1865937500006,"end":3273.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3273.88221875,"end":3274.4728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3275.08034375,"end":3275.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3276.04221875,"end":3280.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3280.44659375,"end":3281.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3282.4209687500006,"end":3285.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3285.9647187500004,"end":3286.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3287.61846875,"end":3288.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3289.3397187500004,"end":3295.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3295.9715937500005,"end":3298.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3298.58721875,"end":3299.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3300.51096875,"end":3301.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3302.02971875,"end":3303.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3303.54846875,"end":3304.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3305.2528437500005,"end":3308.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3309.1003437500003,"end":3309.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3310.09596875,"end":3313.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3313.96034375,"end":3315.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3316.18784375,"end":3317.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3318.12846875,"end":3321.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3321.6384687500004,"end":3325.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3325.8572187500004,"end":3329.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3329.26596875,"end":3331.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3332.6915937500007,"end":3335.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3335.71221875,"end":3339.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3340.30221875,"end":3342.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3342.76596875,"end":3344.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3344.6728437500005,"end":3345.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3345.8203437500006,"end":3348.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3349.2965937500003,"end":3349.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3349.70159375,"end":3350.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3350.49471875,"end":3352.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3353.02596875,"end":3354.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3354.57846875,"end":3356.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3357.17721875,"end":3360.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3360.48471875,"end":3362.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3362.6278437500005,"end":3363.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3363.9609687500006,"end":3365.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3365.54721875,"end":3369.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3370.9978437500004,"end":3373.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3373.6640937500006,"end":3376.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3377.19096875,"end":3379.5197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3380.02596875,"end":3381.1397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3381.51096875,"end":3382.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3382.4559687500005,"end":3382.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3382.55721875,"end":3384.5822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3384.9872187500005,"end":3387.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3387.43409375,"end":3390.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3390.6065937500007,"end":3392.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3393.1378437500007,"end":3394.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3394.5553437500002,"end":3395.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3395.50034375,"end":3396.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3397.12034375,"end":3399.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3399.7528437500005,"end":3404.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3405.0009687500005,"end":3405.6759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3405.8953437500004,"end":3406.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3407.02596875,"end":3409.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3410.0128437500007,"end":3412.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3413.21909375,"end":3415.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3415.68284375,"end":3417.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3417.97784375,"end":3418.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3419.0409687500005,"end":3419.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3420.34034375,"end":3420.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3420.7790937500004,"end":3421.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3421.8759687500005,"end":3425.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3426.2803437500006,"end":3428.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3428.5584687500004,"end":3429.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3429.80721875,"end":3432.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3432.4734687500004,"end":3433.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3433.70534375,"end":3435.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3436.5065937500003,"end":3437.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3438.0253437500005,"end":3439.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3440.3203437500006,"end":3442.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3443.2565937500003,"end":3443.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3443.7628437500007,"end":3446.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3446.98596875,"end":3450.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3451.37346875,"end":3453.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3453.5840937500006,"end":3455.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3456.1659687500005,"end":3458.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3459.1190937500005,"end":3462.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3462.8653437500006,"end":3463.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3463.86096875,"end":3468.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3468.3834687500002,"end":3470.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3471.37034375,"end":3474.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3475.1334687500002,"end":3476.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3476.5847187500003,"end":3479.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3479.6053437500004,"end":3480.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3480.78659375,"end":3481.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3482.3897187500006,"end":3483.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3484.11096875,"end":3487.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3487.23284375,"end":3488.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3489.15659375,"end":3490.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3491.19846875,"end":3492.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3492.97034375,"end":3493.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3493.93221875,"end":3495.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3495.43409375,"end":3497.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3497.72909375,"end":3498.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3498.8428437500006,"end":3502.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3503.09534375,"end":3504.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3504.9684687500003,"end":3508.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3509.33909375,"end":3511.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3511.6678437500004,"end":3513.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3514.2497187500003,"end":3514.5197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3514.72221875,"end":3515.7853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3516.0553437500002,"end":3518.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3519.24471875,"end":3519.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3519.88596875,"end":3520.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3520.6453437500004,"end":3521.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3522.13034375,"end":3524.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3524.8134687500005,"end":3525.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3526.4840937500003,"end":3527.7159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3528.2559687500006,"end":3529.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3529.5722187500005,"end":3530.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3530.63534375,"end":3530.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3531.52971875,"end":3533.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3533.5547187500006,"end":3535.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3535.6472187500003,"end":3540.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3540.92909375,"end":3542.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3542.8865937500004,"end":3543.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3544.11846875,"end":3546.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3546.8015937500004,"end":3548.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3548.7928437500004,"end":3553.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3554.00721875,"end":3558.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3559.2384687500007,"end":3559.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3560.14971875,"end":3560.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3560.89221875,"end":3561.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3562.4278437500006,"end":3564.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3564.7734687500006,"end":3565.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3566.19096875,"end":3568.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3568.72221875,"end":3569.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3570.10596875,"end":3570.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3571.1015937500006,"end":3571.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3572.6540937500004,"end":3577.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3577.8009687500007,"end":3578.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3578.72909375,"end":3580.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3580.95659375,"end":3583.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3583.48784375,"end":3584.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3584.43284375,"end":3587.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3587.68971875,"end":3589.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3590.0690937500003,"end":3590.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3591.19971875,"end":3593.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3593.42721875,"end":3594.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3595.40159375,"end":3596.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3597.3253437500007,"end":3599.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3599.4347187500007,"end":3604.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3604.9022187500004,"end":3605.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3606.13409375,"end":3607.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3607.7540937500007,"end":3608.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3608.9353437500004,"end":3609.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3609.5934687500003,"end":3610.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3611.21346875,"end":3613.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3613.67721875,"end":3615.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3616.2422187500006,"end":3618.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3618.92534375,"end":3620.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3620.6972187500005,"end":3622.3340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3622.6884687500005,"end":3624.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3624.3084687500004,"end":3625.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3626.4347187500007,"end":3627.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3627.8690937500005,"end":3629.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3629.9784687500005,"end":3633.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3634.1803437500002,"end":3638.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3638.5847187500003,"end":3641.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3642.1453437500004,"end":3643.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3646.58346875,"end":3647.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3647.5790937500005,"end":3648.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3648.6590937500005,"end":3651.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3651.59534375,"end":3652.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3652.9959687500004,"end":3655.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3656.2528437500005,"end":3657.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3657.5690937500003,"end":3658.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3659.35784375,"end":3660.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3660.97784375,"end":3662.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3662.56409375,"end":3663.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3664.2853437500007,"end":3666.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3667.25534375,"end":3671.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3685.86846875,"end":3687.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3688.2647187500006,"end":3691.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3692.2978437500005,"end":3695.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3693.0234687500006,"end":3693.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3696.12846875,"end":3696.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3697.49534375,"end":3697.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3697.5290937500004,"end":3698.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3698.0859687500006,"end":3698.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3698.10284375,"end":3698.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3698.17034375,"end":3700.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3698.42346875,"end":3698.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3700.21221875,"end":3701.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3701.12346875,"end":3703.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3704.2790937500004,"end":3707.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3707.8903437500003,"end":3708.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3709.44284375,"end":3710.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3710.3878437500007,"end":3713.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3713.2565937500003,"end":3714.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3714.6065937500007,"end":3715.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3716.07471875,"end":3720.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3721.0359687500004,"end":3722.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3722.3184687500006,"end":3722.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3723.11159375,"end":3724.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3724.5965937500005,"end":3728.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3728.6297187500004,"end":3734.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3735.4303437500002,"end":3741.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3741.57284375,"end":3745.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3745.65659375,"end":3751.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3751.7315937500007,"end":3754.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3754.65096875,"end":3755.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3756.1865937500006,"end":3758.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3759.0047187500004,"end":3763.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3763.7803437500006,"end":3764.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3764.7422187500006,"end":3781.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3780.6384687500004,"end":3789.5822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3789.9365937500006,"end":3796.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3790.02096875,"end":3790.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3790.0378437500003,"end":3790.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3790.3584687500006,"end":3790.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3790.4090937500005,"end":3790.4259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3796.5684687500006,"end":3799.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3800.09534375,"end":3805.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3805.7822187500005,"end":3810.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3810.64221875,"end":3816.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3816.34596875,"end":3820.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3821.54346875,"end":3822.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3822.4884687500007,"end":3826.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3826.23471875,"end":3828.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3828.6309687500006,"end":3829.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3829.42409375,"end":3838.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3839.12721875,"end":3839.6672187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3839.86971875,"end":3841.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3841.7765937500008,"end":3845.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3845.2022187500006,"end":3848.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3848.9147187500002,"end":3853.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3854.1122187500005,"end":3861.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3862.1447187500007,"end":3862.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3863.1403437500003,"end":3867.0890937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3867.3590937500003,"end":3873.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3873.4509687500004,"end":3876.6065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3876.8259687500004,"end":3883.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3880.5553437500002,"end":3880.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3884.1834687500004,"end":3886.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3886.9678437500006,"end":3892.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3892.70534375,"end":3894.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3895.00034375,"end":3899.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3900.1472187500003,"end":3901.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3902.0878437500005,"end":3914.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3914.9128437500003,"end":3914.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3914.96346875,"end":3915.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3915.01409375,"end":3915.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3915.8747187500003,"end":3919.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3919.30034375,"end":3931.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3932.0240937500002,"end":3932.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3932.73284375,"end":3938.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3938.3859687500008,"end":3944.2922187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3944.8322187500007,"end":3947.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3947.6672187500008,"end":3951.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3952.1559687500003,"end":3956.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3957.26909375,"end":3966.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3966.9215937500003,"end":3975.0890937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3975.4940937500005,"end":3977.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3978.2784687500007,"end":3983.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3983.84721875,"end":4000.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4000.90784375,"end":4003.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4004.02971875,"end":4004.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4005.1603437500007,"end":4006.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4006.2740937500002,"end":4018.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4018.86284375,"end":4024.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4024.16159375,"end":4027.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4027.1990937500004,"end":4032.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4032.2784687500007,"end":4035.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4035.73784375,"end":4037.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4037.4928437500002,"end":4039.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4039.3153437500005,"end":4039.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4040.00721875,"end":4042.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4042.5553437500002,"end":4043.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4043.6522187500004,"end":4062.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4062.9572187500007,"end":4067.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4068.22221875,"end":4074.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4074.53346875,"end":4074.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4075.20846875,"end":4076.3390937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4076.7440937500005,"end":4079.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4080.1865937500006,"end":4096.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4096.487843749999,"end":4099.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4099.79534375,"end":4104.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4105.60034375,"end":4108.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4108.75596875,"end":4113.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4113.700343750001,"end":4116.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4116.40034375,"end":4118.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4118.35784375,"end":4119.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4120.18034375,"end":4124.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4124.41596875,"end":4126.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4126.27221875,"end":4131.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4126.60971875,"end":4126.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4131.7059687500005,"end":4133.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4134.10221875,"end":4138.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4139.02971875,"end":4139.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4140.092843750001,"end":4141.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4141.763468749999,"end":4144.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4144.530968749999,"end":4145.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4145.93159375,"end":4146.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4147.04534375,"end":4152.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4152.63096875,"end":4156.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4156.66409375,"end":4159.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4159.78596875,"end":4161.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4159.85346875,"end":4160.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4161.94596875,"end":4173.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4172.2059687500005,"end":4172.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4173.10034375,"end":4180.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4181.4872187500005,"end":4186.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4185.62159375,"end":4186.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4186.41471875,"end":4187.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4187.03909375,"end":4192.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4193.13096875,"end":4199.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4199.982218749999,"end":4208.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4208.79096875,"end":4214.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4214.59596875,"end":4216.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4216.874093750001,"end":4219.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4220.333468750001,"end":4221.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4221.90284375,"end":4225.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4222.257218750001,"end":4222.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4224.501593749999,"end":4247.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4247.4853437500005,"end":4254.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4254.28596875,"end":4273.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4271.59971875,"end":4271.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4272.038468750001,"end":4281.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4281.741593750001,"end":4288.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4288.677218750001,"end":4290.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4291.05659375,"end":4298.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4297.94159375,"end":4298.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4299.409718749999,"end":4302.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4303.00409375,"end":4308.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4309.112843749999,"end":4312.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4312.167218750001,"end":4346.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4334.96534375,"end":4335.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4347.01409375,"end":4352.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4352.31284375,"end":4353.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4353.34221875,"end":4358.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4358.8603437500005,"end":4362.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4362.370343750001,"end":4379.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4379.36346875,"end":4391.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4391.850968750001,"end":4399.394093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4399.545968750001,"end":4406.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4406.44784375,"end":4413.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4413.29909375,"end":4419.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4417.75409375,"end":4417.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4417.872218750001,"end":4417.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4417.88909375,"end":4417.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4417.93971875,"end":4417.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4417.99034375,"end":4418.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4419.593468749999,"end":4422.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4422.698468750001,"end":4424.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4424.26784375,"end":4426.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4426.64721875,"end":4432.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4431.91221875,"end":4440.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4440.19784375,"end":4440.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4441.294718749999,"end":4443.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4443.38721875,"end":4485.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4477.37346875,"end":4478.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4485.321593750001,"end":4492.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4492.628468749999,"end":4494.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4494.231593750001,"end":4504.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4497.606593750001,"end":4497.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4497.6572187500005,"end":4498.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4504.862843749999,"end":4505.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4506.0947187500005,"end":4507.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4507.3603437500005,"end":4521.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4520.35409375,"end":4526.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4524.319718750001,"end":4525.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4527.087218750001,"end":4527.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4527.1884687500005,"end":4532.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4542.25784375,"end":4543.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4544.012843750001,"end":4544.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4548.029093749999,"end":4548.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4548.67034375,"end":4549.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4550.054093750001,"end":4550.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4551.555968750001,"end":4552.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4552.770968750001,"end":4553.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4554.89721875,"end":4557.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4557.34409375,"end":4558.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4558.575968749999,"end":4559.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4559.942843750001,"end":4560.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4561.1747187500005,"end":4561.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4561.64721875,"end":4566.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4566.89534375,"end":4569.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4570.540343750001,"end":4572.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4572.44721875,"end":4575.315968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4575.75471875,"end":4577.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4577.796593749999,"end":4579.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4580.378468749999,"end":4583.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4583.97284375,"end":4584.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4585.27221875,"end":4587.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4587.9384687500005,"end":4590.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4591.51596875,"end":4592.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4593.557843750001,"end":4594.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4595.009093750001,"end":4595.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4596.34221875,"end":4597.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4597.439093749999,"end":4600.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4600.915343750001,"end":4601.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4602.75471875,"end":4604.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4604.91471875,"end":4605.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4606.33221875,"end":4607.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4608.137843750001,"end":4609.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4609.774718750001,"end":4611.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4612.84596875,"end":4613.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4613.892218749999,"end":4615.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4616.052218750001,"end":4616.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4618.077218750001,"end":4621.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4621.55346875,"end":4623.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4623.7303437499995,"end":4625.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4625.4178437499995,"end":4625.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4625.45159375,"end":4625.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4625.755343750001,"end":4628.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4629.11346875,"end":4629.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4630.41284375,"end":4631.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4632.30284375,"end":4634.378468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4634.81721875,"end":4635.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4635.66096875,"end":4636.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4637.16284375,"end":4637.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4637.196593750001,"end":4637.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4637.247218750001,"end":4637.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4637.382218750001,"end":4640.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4637.41596875,"end":4637.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4641.7528437500005,"end":4642.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4642.950968749999,"end":4645.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4645.954718749999,"end":4647.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4648.401593750001,"end":4652.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4653.39659375,"end":4655.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4656.40034375,"end":4658.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4658.897843750001,"end":4660.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4660.349093750001,"end":4662.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4662.6103437500005,"end":4663.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4663.99409375,"end":4665.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4665.9178437499995,"end":4666.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4667.50409375,"end":4668.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4669.66409375,"end":4670.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4671.8915937500005,"end":4673.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4673.798468749999,"end":4675.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4675.9247187500005,"end":4678.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4678.725968750001,"end":4682.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4682.7928437499995,"end":4682.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4682.97846875,"end":4686.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4682.995343750001,"end":4683.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4687.36596875,"end":4690.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4690.79159375,"end":4696.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4695.972218749999,"end":4702.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4703.0428437499995,"end":4706.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4706.991593750001,"end":4710.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4710.788468750001,"end":4712.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4713.319718750001,"end":4714.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4714.93971875,"end":4720.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4720.778468750001,"end":4721.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4721.97659375,"end":4723.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4724.423468749999,"end":4725.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4725.57096875,"end":4729.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4729.46909375,"end":4732.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4732.75971875,"end":4736.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4736.995343750001,"end":4738.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4739.27346875,"end":4742.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4742.530343750001,"end":4748.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4748.55471875,"end":4751.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4751.27159375,"end":4752.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4752.419093750001,"end":4757.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4757.3465937500005,"end":4762.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4763.13471875,"end":4763.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4763.96159375,"end":4767.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4767.57284375,"end":4772.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4772.92221875,"end":4777.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4778.339093750001,"end":4781.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4781.86596875,"end":4783.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4783.70534375,"end":4786.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4786.590968750001,"end":4787.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4787.60346875,"end":4794.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4794.52221875,"end":4796.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4796.83409375,"end":4797.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4797.930968750001,"end":4801.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4801.997843749999,"end":4803.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4803.887843750001,"end":4807.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4807.296593749999,"end":4810.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4810.350968750001,"end":4811.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4811.39721875,"end":4817.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4817.573468750001,"end":4822.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4822.686593750001,"end":4824.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4824.458468750001,"end":4827.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4827.597218750001,"end":4830.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4830.786593750001,"end":4831.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4831.56284375,"end":4836.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4837.013468749999,"end":4842.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4842.66659375,"end":4852.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4852.825343750001,"end":4854.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4854.462218750001,"end":4855.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4854.647843750001,"end":4854.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4855.4072187500005,"end":4857.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4858.3603437500005,"end":4859.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4859.64284375,"end":4860.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4861.33034375,"end":4863.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4863.979718750001,"end":4865.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4865.83596875,"end":4866.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4866.983468750001,"end":4867.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4868.805968750001,"end":4869.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4870.37534375,"end":4871.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4872.38346875,"end":4874.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4875.77534375,"end":4879.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4877.02409375,"end":4882.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4882.42409375,"end":4891.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4891.80659375,"end":4909.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4892.8865937499995,"end":4893.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4909.170968750001,"end":4909.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4909.93034375,"end":4910.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4910.92596875,"end":4911.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4912.022843750001,"end":4913.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4914.368468750001,"end":4914.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4915.077218750001,"end":4923.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4922.68784375,"end":4926.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4926.16409375,"end":4934.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4934.939093749999,"end":4937.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4938.21284375,"end":4952.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4951.45971875,"end":4953.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4953.501593749999,"end":4953.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4954.260968750001,"end":4964.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4964.807843750001,"end":4974.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4975.067843750001,"end":4978.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4979.235968749999,"end":4981.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4981.46346875,"end":4982.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4982.69534375,"end":4986.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4986.745343750001,"end":4990.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4990.154093749999,"end":4993.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4993.950968749999,"end":5005.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5004.61596875,"end":5005.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5005.206593750001,"end":5016.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5008.9022187499995,"end":5009.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5014.0322187500005,"end":5014.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5016.225968750001,"end":5017.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5017.98096875,"end":5022.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5022.638468749999,"end":5024.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5025.67596875,"end":5028.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5028.359093749999,"end":5030.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5030.940968750001,"end":5031.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5031.85221875,"end":5037.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5036.64471875,"end":5053.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5048.35596875,"end":5048.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5050.65096875,"end":5050.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5052.743468750001,"end":5053.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5053.09784375,"end":5055.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5056.017218749999,"end":5059.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5060.050343750001,"end":5064.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5065.23096875,"end":5067.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5067.94784375,"end":5072.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5072.470343749999,"end":5079.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5078.899718750001,"end":5081.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5080.41846875,"end":5087.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5087.82659375,"end":5091.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5091.70784375,"end":5095.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5095.673468749999,"end":5106.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5105.055968750001,"end":5129.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5110.97909375,"end":5111.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5115.75471875,"end":5118.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5129.001593749999,"end":5136.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5137.0340937500005,"end":5139.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5139.835343750001,"end":5143.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5143.42971875,"end":5146.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5146.83846875,"end":5149.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5149.65659375,"end":5155.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5155.22534375,"end":5159.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5160.642218749999,"end":5162.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5162.31284375,"end":5163.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5163.747218750001,"end":5180.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5165.755343750001,"end":5167.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5179.98096875,"end":5182.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5181.651593750001,"end":5189.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5185.499093750001,"end":5186.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5188.38471875,"end":5189.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5189.616593750001,"end":5191.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5191.05096875,"end":5203.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5200.112843750001,"end":5200.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5200.14659375,"end":5202.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5204.63534375,"end":5205.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5206.964093750001,"end":5210.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5219.08034375,"end":5221.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5221.71284375,"end":5222.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5226.43784375,"end":5226.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5226.4715937500005,"end":5226.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5226.53909375,"end":5226.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5226.555968750001,"end":5226.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5226.57284375,"end":5227.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5227.028468750001,"end":5227.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5227.298468749999,"end":5227.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5227.36596875,"end":5235.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5227.585343750001,"end":5228.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5235.66846875,"end":5244.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5245.47284375,"end":5247.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5247.95346875,"end":5250.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5250.33284375,"end":5260.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5261.2509687500005,"end":5274.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5274.700343750001,"end":5278.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5278.868468750001,"end":5278.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5279.86409375,"end":5280.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5280.032843749999,"end":5280.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5280.741593750001,"end":5280.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5280.96096875,"end":5280.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5280.977843750001,"end":5281.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5281.0115937499995,"end":5281.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5281.028468750001,"end":5281.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5281.18034375,"end":5281.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5281.78784375,"end":5281.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5281.80471875,"end":5301.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5300.40096875,"end":5303.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5303.59034375,"end":5303.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5303.708468750001,"end":5308.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5303.74221875,"end":5303.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5309.41221875,"end":5312.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5312.7197187500005,"end":5315.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5312.73659375,"end":5313.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5316.38159375,"end":5338.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5320.14471875,"end":5322.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5329.1053437499995,"end":5329.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5329.1728437500005,"end":5329.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5329.37534375,"end":5329.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5339.196593750001,"end":5345.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5346.33471875,"end":5352.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5352.780968749999,"end":5357.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5353.253468750001,"end":5354.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5358.602843750001,"end":5368.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5369.048468749999,"end":5369.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5369.08221875,"end":5370.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5370.972218750001,"end":5373.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5373.7059687500005,"end":5384.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5373.874718749999,"end":5374.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5384.421593749999,"end":5405.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5388.11721875,"end":5388.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5388.184718750001,"end":5388.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5394.71534375,"end":5394.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5404.536593750001,"end":5407.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5406.645968750001,"end":5409.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5409.00846875,"end":5410.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5411.202218750001,"end":5431.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5421.597218750001,"end":5422.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5425.22534375,"end":5425.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5430.692843750001,"end":5433.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5432.44784375,"end":5462.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5456.140343749999,"end":5457.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5462.282843749999,"end":5473.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5471.6990937499995,"end":5471.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5471.715968750001,"end":5471.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5471.73284375,"end":5471.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5471.800343750001,"end":5471.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5471.83409375,"end":5471.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5472.39096875,"end":5472.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5473.65659375,"end":5483.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5482.14471875,"end":5482.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5483.03909375,"end":5487.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5488.6415937500005,"end":5493.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5490.10971875,"end":5490.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5494.17659375,"end":5498.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5498.07471875,"end":5502.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5502.19221875,"end":5511.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5506.394093750001,"end":5506.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5506.866593750001,"end":5506.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5511.10221875,"end":5532.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5511.591593749999,"end":5512.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5532.9384687500005,"end":5539.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5539.030343750001,"end":5539.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5539.18221875,"end":5539.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5539.36784375,"end":5542.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5539.41846875,"end":5539.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5542.84409375,"end":5558.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5558.571593750001,"end":5558.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5558.82471875,"end":5558.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5558.858468750001,"end":5558.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5558.97659375,"end":5570.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5562.874718749999,"end":5565.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5570.60346875,"end":5571.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5571.58221875,"end":5573.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5574.552218750001,"end":5578.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5579.63159375,"end":5601.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5601.7040937500005,"end":5606.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5605.51784375,"end":5609.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5607.89721875,"end":5611.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5611.677218750001,"end":5627.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5627.69159375,"end":5635.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5635.97721875,"end":5643.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5642.895968750001,"end":5644.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5644.718468749999,"end":5658.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5644.7353437500005,"end":5645.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5658.5897187499995,"end":5661.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5660.142218749999,"end":5661.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5661.745343750001,"end":5662.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5662.2684687500005,"end":5682.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5662.302218750001,"end":5662.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5663.68596875,"end":5665.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5665.069718750001,"end":5665.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5673.62534375,"end":5675.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5680.999718749999,"end":5683.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5683.294718749999,"end":5690.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5689.52159375,"end":5692.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5691.20909375,"end":5697.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5693.58846875,"end":5693.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5697.8240937499995,"end":5699.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5699.798468749999,"end":5703.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5703.831593750001,"end":5704.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5705.13096875,"end":5705.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5706.53159375,"end":5710.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5711.155343750001,"end":5712.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5712.977843750001,"end":5713.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5713.99034375,"end":5714.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5714.530343750001,"end":5718.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5719.019093750001,"end":5721.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5719.069718750001,"end":5719.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5719.440968750001,"end":5719.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5721.48284375,"end":5723.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5723.25471875,"end":5726.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5726.950343750001,"end":5727.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5727.220343749999,"end":5735.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5735.03346875,"end":5736.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5736.82221875,"end":5758.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5758.675343750001,"end":5761.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5761.84784375,"end":5764.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5764.85159375,"end":5765.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5765.03721875,"end":5772.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5765.054093750001,"end":5765.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5771.804093750001,"end":5780.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5775.364718750001,"end":5776.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5777.187218749999,"end":5779.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5780.96721875,"end":5785.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5781.6590937500005,"end":5781.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5785.725968750001,"end":5788.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5786.11409375,"end":5786.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5788.03784375,"end":5788.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5788.79721875,"end":5788.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5788.93221875,"end":5795.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5795.83409375,"end":5807.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5808.10221875,"end":5819.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5819.08784375,"end":5819.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5819.189093750001,"end":5819.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5819.25659375,"end":5819.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5819.88096875,"end":5838.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5836.587218750001,"end":5837.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5838.122843749999,"end":5848.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5840.82284375,"end":5841.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5845.88534375,"end":5846.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5848.214093750001,"end":5848.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5848.23096875,"end":5848.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5848.70346875,"end":5870.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5860.060343749999,"end":5860.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5860.17846875,"end":5860.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5860.212218750001,"end":5860.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5860.397843750001,"end":5860.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5870.97846875,"end":5878.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5879.280968749999,"end":5881.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5882.234093749999,"end":5884.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5885.30534375,"end":5901.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5902.0115937499995,"end":5903.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5903.1590937500005,"end":5915.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5904.4247187500005,"end":5904.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5916.186593750001,"end":5923.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5917.75596875,"end":5918.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5923.56096875,"end":5935.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5924.759093750001,"end":5925.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5927.86409375,"end":5928.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5935.03596875,"end":5950.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5935.23846875,"end":5935.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5943.81096875,"end":5944.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5944.94159375,"end":5945.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5950.628468750001,"end":5961.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5961.968468749999,"end":5966.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5965.7147187499995,"end":5965.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5965.967843750001,"end":5966.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5966.35596875,"end":5971.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5971.97534375,"end":5972.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5972.02596875,"end":5972.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5972.0428437499995,"end":5972.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5972.07659375,"end":5976.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5976.734093749999,"end":5981.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5982.01596875,"end":5985.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5985.272843750001,"end":5985.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5985.8465937500005,"end":5985.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5985.9647187499995,"end":5986.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5986.0322187500005,"end":5986.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5986.97721875,"end":5991.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5991.786593750001,"end":5995.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5991.82034375,"end":5992.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5992.69784375,"end":5993.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5996.20784375,"end":6000.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5997.372218750001,"end":5997.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5997.54096875,"end":5997.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5997.591593749999,"end":5997.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5997.62534375,"end":5997.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6000.510968750001,"end":6001.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6002.02971875,"end":6005.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6004.64534375,"end":6004.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6004.679093750001,"end":6004.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6004.965968750001,"end":6004.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6005.809718750001,"end":6006.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6006.450968749999,"end":6006.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6012.779093749999,"end":6014.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6015.647843750001,"end":6016.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6017.16659375,"end":6018.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6021.638468749999,"end":6022.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6022.482218749999,"end":6024.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6023.64659375,"end":6024.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6025.013468749999,"end":6031.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6031.88159375,"end":6033.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6033.737843750001,"end":6037.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6038.02409375,"end":6040.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6040.538468750001,"end":6040.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6040.89284375,"end":6041.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6042.0740937499995,"end":6048.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6048.503468750001,"end":6049.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6050.562218749999,"end":6060.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6054.696593750001,"end":6055.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6057.80159375,"end":6058.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6058.155968749999,"end":6058.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6060.872843749999,"end":6063.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6063.91034375,"end":6066.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6066.458468750001,"end":6066.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6066.91409375,"end":6070.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6070.626593750001,"end":6074.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6072.4490937499995,"end":6072.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6074.64284375,"end":6075.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6076.00971875,"end":6076.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6077.17409375,"end":6079.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6079.452218750001,"end":6080.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6080.7684687500005,"end":6084.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6084.19409375,"end":6084.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6085.37534375,"end":6092.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6092.952218750001,"end":6097.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6097.356593750001,"end":6104.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6104.663468750001,"end":6109.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6107.58284375,"end":6107.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6109.65846875,"end":6111.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6112.29096875,"end":6116.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6116.59409375,"end":6119.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6118.93971875,"end":6124.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6124.52534375,"end":6127.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6125.13284375,"end":6125.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6127.917218750001,"end":6128.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6129.52034375,"end":6137.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6138.44721875,"end":6142.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6143.475968750001,"end":6151.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6149.2978437500005,"end":6155.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6155.40659375,"end":6158.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6158.41034375,"end":6162.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6163.00034375,"end":6164.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6164.333468750001,"end":6166.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6167.08409375,"end":6172.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6173.007218750001,"end":6176.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6177.225968750001,"end":6185.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6185.86596875,"end":6186.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6187.064093750001,"end":6187.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6188.144093750001,"end":6190.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6191.097218750001,"end":6196.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6194.30346875,"end":6194.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6194.55659375,"end":6194.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6196.767218750001,"end":6199.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6199.686593750001,"end":6210.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6210.94221875,"end":6216.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6216.966593749999,"end":6219.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6217.202843749999,"end":6217.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6219.61596875,"end":6229.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6221.050343750001,"end":6221.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6229.622843749999,"end":6236.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6237.43596875,"end":6238.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6238.83659375,"end":6245.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6245.63721875,"end":6253.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6253.78784375,"end":6254.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6254.665343750001,"end":6257.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6257.68596875,"end":6266.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6267.06846875,"end":6269.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6269.717843750001,"end":6277.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6278.239718750001,"end":6283.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6284.061593750001,"end":6292.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6292.684718750001,"end":6297.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6298.05096875,"end":6299.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6299.55284375,"end":6304.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6305.6278437500005,"end":6315.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6315.600968750001,"end":6322.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6322.6209687499995,"end":6324.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6324.780968749999,"end":6329.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6330.265343749999,"end":6331.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6331.919093750001,"end":6342.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6341.77409375,"end":6341.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6341.82471875,"end":6342.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6342.58409375,"end":6349.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6349.28346875,"end":6354.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6354.919718749999,"end":6357.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6358.17659375,"end":6359.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6360.06659375,"end":6361.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6361.28159375,"end":6369.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6370.259093750001,"end":6379.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6379.5740937499995,"end":6390.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6391.217843750001,"end":6396.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6396.56721875,"end":6399.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6400.36409375,"end":6407.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6407.26596875,"end":6409.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6410.35409375,"end":6411.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6412.09221875,"end":6424.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6425.32221875,"end":6432.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6429.2372187500005,"end":6429.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6433.202843749999,"end":6434.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6435.312218749999,"end":6437.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6438.029093749999,"end":6438.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6438.687218749999,"end":6442.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6443.192843750001,"end":6445.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6446.07846875,"end":6450.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6450.90471875,"end":6454.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6455.055968750001,"end":6455.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6456.06846875,"end":6458.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6458.802218750001,"end":6462.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6459.02159375,"end":6459.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6462.700343750001,"end":6467.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6466.24409375,"end":6473.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6473.34846875,"end":6479.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6479.40659375,"end":6490.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6489.548468750001,"end":6489.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6490.66221875,"end":6494.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6496.264718750001,"end":6502.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6502.6434687500005,"end":6515.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6515.82284375,"end":6522.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6523.247843749999,"end":6528.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6529.28909375,"end":6534.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6534.77346875,"end":6541.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6541.827218750001,"end":6545.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6545.96159375,"end":6546.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6547.0584687499995,"end":6552.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6552.86346875,"end":6555.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6556.10346875,"end":6558.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6558.71909375,"end":6561.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6559.84971875,"end":6560.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6560.187218749999,"end":6560.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6562.04346875,"end":6566.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6566.81909375,"end":6569.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6569.77221875,"end":6570.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6569.991593750001,"end":6572.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6573.01221875,"end":6574.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6574.294718749999,"end":6575.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6575.17221875,"end":6584.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6584.82471875,"end":6586.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6586.2928437499995,"end":6591.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6591.49034375,"end":6592.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6592.874093750001,"end":6594.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6595.23659375,"end":6598.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6598.5272187499995,"end":6600.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6600.0965937500005,"end":6602.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6602.374718749999,"end":6603.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6604.12971875,"end":6606.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6606.137843750001,"end":6608.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6608.989718750001,"end":6614.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6609.10784375,"end":6609.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6612.786593750001,"end":6621.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6621.34221875,"end":6626.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6626.55659375,"end":6627.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6627.2147187499995,"end":6627.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6628.345343750001,"end":6638.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6638.993468750001,"end":6644.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6643.19534375,"end":6644.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6644.612843750001,"end":6652.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6653.3709687499995,"end":6653.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6653.995343750001,"end":6670.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6671.5790937500005,"end":6675.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6675.932843750001,"end":6681.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6681.315968750001,"end":6685.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6685.484093749999,"end":6688.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6686.36159375,"end":6686.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6688.36971875,"end":6688.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6688.774718750001,"end":6688.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6688.825343750001,"end":6689.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6688.97721875,"end":6689.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6689.483468750001,"end":6690.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6690.86721875,"end":6692.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6701.3465937500005,"end":6704.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6704.704718750001,"end":6705.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6705.86909375,"end":6707.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6710.12159375,"end":6746.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6711.06659375,"end":6711.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6711.640343749999,"end":6711.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6747.229718750001,"end":6749.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6749.69346875,"end":6752.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6751.347218750001,"end":6770.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6753.405968749999,"end":6753.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6770.6522187499995,"end":6777.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6777.01409375,"end":6777.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6777.874718749999,"end":6777.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6777.90846875,"end":6778.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6778.060343749999,"end":6778.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6778.077218750001,"end":6778.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6778.262843750001,"end":6797.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6787.071593750001,"end":6787.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6796.99409375,"end":6797.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6797.26409375,"end":6812.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6812.046593749999,"end":6812.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6812.95784375,"end":6817.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6817.64909375,"end":6844.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6845.189093750001,"end":6845.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6846.20159375,"end":6847.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6849.1209687499995,"end":6851.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6852.19221875,"end":6855.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6855.972218750001,"end":6857.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6857.45721875,"end":6873.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6874.14659375,"end":6889.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6890.481593750001,"end":6899.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6899.982218749999,"end":6903.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6901.7372187500005,"end":6902.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6903.30659375,"end":6903.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6903.357218749999,"end":6938.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6903.509093750001,"end":6903.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6938.17034375,"end":6950.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6950.97846875,"end":6954.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6954.842843750001,"end":6973.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6970.587218750001,"end":6970.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6973.92846875,"end":6974.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6974.92409375,"end":6977.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6977.8603437500005,"end":6985.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6986.17971875,"end":6991.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6991.79909375,"end":7007.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7007.661593750001,"end":7007.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7007.67846875,"end":7008.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7008.11721875,"end":7009.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7009.349093750001,"end":7015.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7015.812218750001,"end":7020.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7020.503468750001,"end":7021.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7021.43159375,"end":7030.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7028.50221875,"end":7037.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7034.661593750001,"end":7041.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7041.968468750001,"end":7044.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7044.43221875,"end":7045.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7046.30534375,"end":7050.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7050.878468750001,"end":7057.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7057.206593750001,"end":7059.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7060.27784375,"end":7065.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7065.644093750001,"end":7066.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7066.92659375,"end":7073.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7073.895968750001,"end":7078.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7077.33846875,"end":7078.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7079.41409375,"end":7090.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7089.85971875,"end":7092.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7091.243468750001,"end":7091.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7092.137843750001,"end":7096.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7095.5634687500005,"end":7106.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7105.958468750001,"end":7109.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7109.63721875,"end":7123.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7117.247843749999,"end":7117.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7120.3865937499995,"end":7121.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7122.4959687499995,"end":7125.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7125.280343750001,"end":7126.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7126.98471875,"end":7130.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7130.562218750001,"end":7132.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7131.38909375,"end":7132.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7132.587218750001,"end":7133.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7135.4559687500005,"end":7137.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7136.282843750001,"end":7136.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7136.2997187500005,"end":7136.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7137.599093750001,"end":7138.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7141.159718750001,"end":7141.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7141.80096875,"end":7202.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7148.87159375,"end":7149.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7149.276593750001,"end":7149.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7202.432843750001,"end":7211.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7205.385968750001,"end":7205.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7205.40284375,"end":7205.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7205.419718749999,"end":7206.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7212.25409375,"end":7212.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7213.1990937499995,"end":7217.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7218.1434687500005,"end":7220.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7220.74221875,"end":7222.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7222.5478437500005,"end":7223.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7223.96534375,"end":7238.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7236.72284375,"end":7242.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7241.0428437499995,"end":7241.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7242.34221875,"end":7242.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7242.66284375,"end":7247.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7246.965968750001,"end":7248.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7248.180968750001,"end":7262.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7248.687218750001,"end":7248.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7263.081593750001,"end":7272.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7270.50659375,"end":7270.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7272.6834687499995,"end":7273.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7273.05471875,"end":7277.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7277.712218750001,"end":7291.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7292.106593750001,"end":7310.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7294.14846875,"end":7294.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7310.567843750001,"end":7311.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7311.4959687499995,"end":7314.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7315.05659375,"end":7319.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7320.72659375,"end":7322.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7322.97096875,"end":7325.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7326.21096875,"end":7352.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7353.5653437500005,"end":7375.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7374.10221875,"end":7385.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7378.69221875,"end":7379.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7379.11409375,"end":7379.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7385.67846875,"end":7385.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7385.762843750001,"end":7385.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7385.847218750001,"end":7390.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7389.07034375,"end":7389.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7391.1122187500005,"end":7391.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7391.669093750001,"end":7392.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7394.87534375,"end":7396.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7399.161593750001,"end":7400.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7400.899718750001,"end":7401.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7409.995343750001,"end":7411.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7411.66596875,"end":7419.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7419.782843750001,"end":7421.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7421.53784375,"end":7422.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7421.993468750001,"end":7422.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7423.2928437499995,"end":7426.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7427.325968749999,"end":7427.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7427.35971875,"end":7430.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7431.173468750001,"end":7437.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7438.3622187500005,"end":7441.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7442.057843750001,"end":7443.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7444.23471875,"end":7448.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7448.45346875,"end":7456.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7456.51971875,"end":7458.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7459.10159375,"end":7460.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7461.092843750001,"end":7462.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7462.71284375,"end":7464.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7464.9403437500005,"end":7466.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7466.50971875,"end":7476.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7476.499718750001,"end":7476.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7476.76971875,"end":7479.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7479.4022187499995,"end":7481.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7481.477843750001,"end":7495.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7496.17596875,"end":7500.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7501.23846875,"end":7504.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7504.90034375,"end":7505.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7506.38534375,"end":7506.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7506.90846875,"end":7510.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7511.144093750001,"end":7526.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7526.753468750001,"end":7527.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7528.18784375,"end":7530.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7530.9384687500005,"end":7534.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7535.07284375,"end":7537.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7538.279093749999,"end":7539.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7540.304093750001,"end":7541.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7542.5653437500005,"end":7544.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7545.2147187499995,"end":7546.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7547.189093750001,"end":7550.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7551.323468750001,"end":7552.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7552.302218750001,"end":7554.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7554.90096875,"end":7566.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7566.76409375,"end":7591.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7569.885968750001,"end":7570.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7571.97846875,"end":7572.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7591.300343750001,"end":7591.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7592.02596875,"end":7592.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7592.97096875,"end":7596.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7596.95346875,"end":7599.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7600.1259687500005,"end":7600.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7601.003468750001,"end":7601.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7601.25659375,"end":7608.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7608.276593750001,"end":7611.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7611.4490937499995,"end":7634.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7616.64659375,"end":7617.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7618.36784375,"end":7618.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7633.673468750001,"end":7637.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7634.905343750001,"end":7636.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7638.364718750001,"end":7644.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7638.39846875,"end":7638.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7639.731593750001,"end":7641.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7642.43159375,"end":7642.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7645.030343750001,"end":7646.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7647.645968750001,"end":7650.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7649.78909375,"end":7649.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7650.44721875,"end":7665.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7665.7528437500005,"end":7668.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7665.80346875,"end":7667.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7668.030968750001,"end":7670.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7670.02221875,"end":7670.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7670.342843750001,"end":7677.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7677.700343750001,"end":7683.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7677.734093750001,"end":7679.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7683.11721875,"end":7696.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7694.27159375,"end":7697.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7698.30471875,"end":7703.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7703.890343750001,"end":7703.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7703.940968750001,"end":7703.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7703.97471875,"end":7717.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7706.50596875,"end":7707.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7709.189093750001,"end":7709.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7716.00659375,"end":7719.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7720.2928437499995,"end":7727.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7727.02596875,"end":7728.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7728.47721875,"end":7734.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7728.52784375,"end":7729.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7735.159718750001,"end":7741.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7741.8759687500005,"end":7742.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7742.97284375,"end":7745.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7746.19596875,"end":7750.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7749.0478437500005,"end":7752.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7752.372218750001,"end":7752.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7752.43971875,"end":7752.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7752.49034375,"end":7753.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7754.329718750001,"end":7756.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7757.45159375,"end":7759.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7759.493468750001,"end":7762.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7763.003468750001,"end":7770.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7770.5634687500005,"end":7772.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7773.044093750001,"end":7782.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7779.76034375,"end":7790.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7785.71721875,"end":7785.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7790.96534375,"end":7799.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7797.39471875,"end":7798.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7799.841593749999,"end":7810.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7811.35034375,"end":7816.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7816.14284375,"end":7816.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7816.817843750001,"end":7816.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7816.9697187500005,"end":7820.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7819.264718750001,"end":7820.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7820.665343750001,"end":7820.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7820.83409375,"end":7820.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7820.86784375,"end":7820.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7820.952218750001,"end":7826.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7826.6053437499995,"end":7834.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7831.161593750001,"end":7831.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7834.165343750001,"end":7841.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7840.780343750001,"end":7845.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7841.894093750001,"end":7844.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7846.028468750001,"end":7847.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7847.46284375,"end":7859.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7855.866593750001,"end":7868.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7861.14846875,"end":7862.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7868.50596875,"end":7874.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7873.80471875,"end":7876.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7875.5428437499995,"end":7876.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7876.23471875,"end":7876.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7876.2684687500005,"end":7876.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7876.302218750001,"end":7876.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7876.31909375,"end":7876.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7876.403468750001,"end":7876.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7876.774718750001,"end":7881.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7882.19159375,"end":7887.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7887.76034375,"end":7894.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7889.852843750001,"end":7892.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7893.497843749999,"end":7901.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7899.80909375,"end":7900.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7901.64846875,"end":7902.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7903.31909375,"end":7905.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7906.440968750001,"end":7906.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7907.1834687499995,"end":7913.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7913.62971875,"end":7919.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7919.384093750001,"end":7923.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7923.29909375,"end":7928.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7928.88471875,"end":7930.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7930.302218750001,"end":7932.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7933.2215937500005,"end":7935.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7936.309718750001,"end":7943.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7944.274718750001,"end":7946.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7946.434718750001,"end":7947.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7947.936593750001,"end":7948.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7949.185343749999,"end":7951.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7951.46346875,"end":7956.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7957.15034375,"end":7958.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7958.12909375,"end":7960.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7961.95971875,"end":7962.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7962.921593750001,"end":7965.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7965.840968750001,"end":7968.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7969.165343750001,"end":7985.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7986.02346875,"end":8001.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7993.85346875,"end":7993.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7993.954718750001,"end":7994.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7994.03909375,"end":7994.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8001.970343750001,"end":8002.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8002.69596875,"end":8010.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8011.200968749999,"end":8029.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8012.669093750001,"end":8013.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8014.94721875,"end":8015.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8029.965968750001,"end":8038.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8031.450968750001,"end":8031.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8036.17596875,"end":8036.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8038.909718750001,"end":8060.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8043.14534375,"end":8045.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8061.1678437499995,"end":8067.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8067.698468750001,"end":8070.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8070.80346875,"end":8081.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8080.33784375,"end":8085.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8083.79721875,"end":8089.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8088.404093750001,"end":8089.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8089.3153437500005,"end":8091.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8089.33221875,"end":8089.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8091.99846875,"end":8098.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8097.280343750001,"end":8098.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8098.69784375,"end":8100.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8099.237843750001,"end":8107.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8108.08034375,"end":8118.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8109.53159375,"end":8111.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8117.715968750001,"end":8127.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8119.33596875,"end":8120.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8123.30159375,"end":8123.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8123.31846875,"end":8126.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8127.452843750001,"end":8127.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8127.503468750001,"end":8129.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8127.95909375,"end":8132.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8130.608468750001,"end":8131.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8132.987843750001,"end":8134.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8133.139718750001,"end":8133.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8134.118468750001,"end":8134.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8135.11409375,"end":8135.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8136.734093750001,"end":8137.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8138.21909375,"end":8141.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8142.30284375,"end":8147.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8147.5340937500005,"end":8150.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8150.50409375,"end":8161.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8161.202843750001,"end":8167.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8167.93596875,"end":8180.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8180.50784375,"end":8193.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8193.09659375,"end":8208.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8208.199718750002,"end":8211.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8211.574718750002,"end":8215.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8214.59534375,"end":8217.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8215.18596875,"end":8215.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8215.28721875,"end":8216.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8216.99159375,"end":8219.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8218.527218750001,"end":8219.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8219.792843750001,"end":8225.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8226.20534375,"end":8228.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8228.06159375,"end":8228.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8228.078468750002,"end":8228.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8228.09534375,"end":8228.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8228.280968750001,"end":8228.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8228.297843750002,"end":8228.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8229.074093750001,"end":8229.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8229.124718750001,"end":8232.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8232.75284375,"end":8234.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8235.01409375,"end":8236.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8236.16159375,"end":8241.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8241.730343750001,"end":8242.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8243.08034375,"end":8243.384093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8243.60346875,"end":8244.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8253.57659375,"end":8255.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8255.85471875,"end":8257.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8258.09909375,"end":8258.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8258.11596875,"end":8258.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8262.149093750002,"end":8262.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8262.16596875,"end":8262.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8262.250343750002,"end":8262.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8262.503468750001,"end":8262.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8263.44846875,"end":8264.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8264.410343750002,"end":8264.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8265.64221875,"end":8268.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8268.44346875,"end":8271.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8271.41346875,"end":8273.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8273.28659375,"end":8273.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8273.320343750001,"end":8273.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8273.472218750001,"end":8273.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8273.50596875,"end":8273.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8273.52284375,"end":8277.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8273.55659375,"end":8273.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8277.758468750002,"end":8278.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8278.230968750002,"end":8297.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8293.199093750001,"end":8293.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8297.215343750002,"end":8306.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8297.60346875,"end":8298.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8299.61159375,"end":8300.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8305.88909375,"end":8314.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8310.968468750001,"end":8311.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8314.22534375,"end":8314.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8314.57971875,"end":8314.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8314.64721875,"end":8314.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8314.680968750003,"end":8314.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8314.714718750001,"end":8323.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8316.31784375,"end":8317.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8319.372218750003,"end":8320.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8322.797843750002,"end":8327.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8323.65846875,"end":8323.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8328.14721875,"end":8329.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8330.10471875,"end":8335.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8336.63534375,"end":8338.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8339.63909375,"end":8345.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8345.00534375,"end":8346.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8347.80659375,"end":8349.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8349.76409375,"end":8351.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8351.97471875,"end":8354.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8354.97846875,"end":8359.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8360.42909375,"end":8361.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8362.487843750001,"end":8364.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8364.52971875,"end":8367.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8368.664093750001,"end":8372.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8372.69721875,"end":8373.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8374.249718750001,"end":8375.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8375.97096875,"end":8377.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8378.012843750003,"end":8379.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8380.375343750002,"end":8382.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8382.34971875,"end":8387.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8388.32346875,"end":8394.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8391.040343750003,"end":8397.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8394.31409375,"end":8395.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8397.081593750001,"end":8403.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8401.688468750002,"end":8405.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8404.320968750002,"end":8405.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8405.13096875,"end":8410.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8406.632843750001,"end":8408.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8409.434093750002,"end":8409.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8410.68284375,"end":8410.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8410.81784375,"end":8411.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8411.03721875,"end":8412.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8412.977843750003,"end":8413.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8413.028468750003,"end":8413.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8413.180343750002,"end":8413.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8413.19721875,"end":8415.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8414.125343750002,"end":8415.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8415.42471875,"end":8415.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8415.644093750001,"end":8415.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8415.67784375,"end":8415.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8415.711593750002,"end":8424.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8416.84221875,"end":8417.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8420.74034375,"end":8420.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8420.976593750001,"end":8421.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8421.16221875,"end":8421.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8424.840968750003,"end":8425.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8425.95471875,"end":8426.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8426.882843750001,"end":8427.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8428.215968750003,"end":8430.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8430.730343750001,"end":8432.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8432.468468750001,"end":8438.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8439.015968750002,"end":8439.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8439.977843750003,"end":8441.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8441.88471875,"end":8442.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8442.94784375,"end":8445.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8444.702843750001,"end":8444.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8445.25971875,"end":8445.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8445.293468750002,"end":8445.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8445.31034375,"end":8445.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8445.867218750001,"end":8447.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8448.36471875,"end":8450.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8451.520343750002,"end":8458.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8453.79846875,"end":8466.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8463.906593750002,"end":8466.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8466.42096875,"end":8467.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8466.57284375,"end":8466.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8466.589718750001,"end":8467.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8467.281593750002,"end":8467.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8467.484093750001,"end":8467.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8467.703468750002,"end":8477.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8467.73721875,"end":8470.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8477.558468750001,"end":8478.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8477.81159375,"end":8477.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8478.38534375,"end":8479.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8479.85346875,"end":8490.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8489.438468750002,"end":8496.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8490.40034375,"end":8490.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8490.484718750002,"end":8490.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8491.46346875,"end":8491.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8493.336593750002,"end":8496.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8497.30221875,"end":8501.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8501.352218750002,"end":8504.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8503.292843750001,"end":8508.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8504.79471875,"end":8505.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8507.86596875,"end":8513.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8512.219718750002,"end":8512.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8513.23221875,"end":8517.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8513.789093750001,"end":8518.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8518.19346875,"end":8523.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8523.10409375,"end":8527.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8526.765968750002,"end":8526.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8527.52534375,"end":8531.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8531.946593750003,"end":8537.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8538.24096875,"end":8538.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8540.23221875,"end":8542.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8543.60721875,"end":8545.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8544.07971875,"end":8549.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8549.46284375,"end":8550.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8549.51346875,"end":8550.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8550.94784375,"end":8550.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8551.26846875,"end":8554.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8554.609718750002,"end":8555.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8556.31409375,"end":8559.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8560.515968750002,"end":8561.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8561.680343750002,"end":8563.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8563.77284375,"end":8565.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8566.30409375,"end":8567.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8567.97471875,"end":8577.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8578.16721875,"end":8579.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8580.79971875,"end":8581.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8582.31846875,"end":8583.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8584.44471875,"end":8585.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8585.69346875,"end":8588.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8589.38909375,"end":8595.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8596.527218750001,"end":8598.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8600.10471875,"end":8603.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8603.36159375,"end":8604.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8605.504718750002,"end":8611.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8606.078468750002,"end":8606.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8606.770343750002,"end":8606.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8607.023468750001,"end":8607.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8612.237843750001,"end":8612.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8612.28846875,"end":8612.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8612.38971875,"end":8613.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8612.625968750002,"end":8617.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8616.23721875,"end":8617.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8617.28346875,"end":8617.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8617.587218750003,"end":8617.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8617.60409375,"end":8617.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8618.02596875,"end":8628.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8619.375968750002,"end":8619.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8626.379093750002,"end":8633.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8628.387218750002,"end":8629.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8633.58471875,"end":8635.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8635.84596875,"end":8638.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8639.28846875,"end":8641.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8641.39784375,"end":8642.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8642.32596875,"end":8642.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8642.44409375,"end":8642.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8642.54534375,"end":8642.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8642.832218750002,"end":8642.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8642.84909375,"end":8642.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8643.102218750002,"end":8648.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8647.82721875,"end":8649.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8650.13909375,"end":8651.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8652.434093750002,"end":8658.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8652.653468750003,"end":8653.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8658.77909375,"end":8664.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8664.28034375,"end":8666.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8666.625968750002,"end":8674.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8671.97534375,"end":8672.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8673.747218750003,"end":8674.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8674.320968750002,"end":8674.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8674.33784375,"end":8674.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8674.48971875,"end":8687.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8678.92784375,"end":8680.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8685.88034375,"end":8692.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8693.457218750002,"end":8694.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8694.722843750002,"end":8696.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8697.152843750002,"end":8699.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8699.39721875,"end":8699.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8700.426593750002,"end":8700.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8701.40534375,"end":8705.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8704.493468750003,"end":8706.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8707.109093750001,"end":8709.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8709.657218750002,"end":8712.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8713.184093750002,"end":8716.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8716.812218750001,"end":8716.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8716.84596875,"end":8719.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8716.99784375,"end":8718.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8719.63034375,"end":8720.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8721.672218750002,"end":8723.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8724.996593750002,"end":8729.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8729.856593750003,"end":8730.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8729.87346875,"end":8732.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8733.24846875,"end":8733.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8734.41284375,"end":8735.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8736.167843750001,"end":8742.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8743.339718750001,"end":8746.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8747.507843750001,"end":8748.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8748.43596875,"end":8752.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8752.941593750002,"end":8756.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8756.856593750003,"end":8768.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8768.550968750002,"end":8775.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8775.402218750001,"end":8781.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8781.59534375,"end":8787.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8789.50971875,"end":8792.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8790.10034375,"end":8790.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8792.395343750002,"end":8801.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8799.972218750001,"end":8802.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8803.00971875,"end":8805.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8805.945968750002,"end":8806.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8807.211593750002,"end":8807.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8808.96659375,"end":8809.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8809.81034375,"end":8810.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8811.39659375,"end":8812.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8812.78034375,"end":8818.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8819.09159375,"end":8819.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8819.817218750002,"end":8823.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8824.00221875,"end":8826.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8826.887843750003,"end":8828.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8828.47409375,"end":8831.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8832.304718750001,"end":8833.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8834.464718750001,"end":8834.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8835.730343750001,"end":8836.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8836.844093750002,"end":8837.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8838.329093750002,"end":8841.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8839.206593750001,"end":8839.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8840.45534375,"end":8841.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8841.315968750001,"end":8841.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8842.581593750001,"end":8843.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8843.644718750002,"end":8846.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8847.137843750003,"end":8850.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8850.968468750001,"end":8862.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8863.574093750001,"end":8865.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8865.953468750002,"end":8867.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8866.03784375,"end":8866.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8868.88971875,"end":8871.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8871.269093750001,"end":8872.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8872.973468750002,"end":8873.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8873.024093750002,"end":8874.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8874.509093750003,"end":8874.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8874.62721875,"end":8875.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8875.859093750001,"end":8876.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8877.664718750002,"end":8880.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8880.246593750002,"end":8881.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8883.06471875,"end":8883.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8885.39346875,"end":8887.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8888.059718750003,"end":8890.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8892.51471875,"end":8893.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8894.691593750002,"end":8896.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8897.374718750001,"end":8900.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8900.327843750001,"end":8900.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8900.496593750002,"end":8902.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8901.964718750001,"end":8902.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8902.909718750001,"end":8903.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8903.21346875,"end":8903.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8903.26409375,"end":8903.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8903.297843750002,"end":8903.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8903.972843750002,"end":8904.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8904.023468750001,"end":8904.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8904.968468750001,"end":8905.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8905.035968750002,"end":8905.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8905.96409375,"end":8907.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8907.16221875,"end":8910.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8910.75659375,"end":8912.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8912.157218750002,"end":8916.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8916.325343750003,"end":8920.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8920.35846875,"end":8925.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8925.758468750002,"end":8933.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8926.821593750003,"end":8927.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8928.74534375,"end":8928.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8933.75721875,"end":8934.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8935.664093750001,"end":8936.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8936.355968750002,"end":8937.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8937.58784375,"end":8939.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8940.43971875,"end":8942.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8944.219718750002,"end":8944.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8946.46409375,"end":8948.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8948.691593750002,"end":8950.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8953.079093750002,"end":8954.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8954.61471875,"end":8955.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8954.766593750002,"end":8955.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8955.27284375,"end":8955.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8956.21784375,"end":8958.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8957.78721875,"end":8964.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8963.035343750002,"end":8966.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8966.27534375,"end":8968.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8969.481593750003,"end":8972.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8969.515343750001,"end":8969.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8972.72159375,"end":8977.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8977.159718750001,"end":8977.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8977.176593750002,"end":8977.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8977.41284375,"end":8980.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8980.551593750002,"end":8989.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8989.343468750001,"end":8991.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8989.37721875,"end":8989.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8991.098468750002,"end":8991.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8992.17846875,"end":8992.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8994.254093750002,"end":8994.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8994.28784375,"end":8998.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8995.097843750002,"end":8996.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8997.308468750001,"end":8997.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8997.98346875,"end":9007.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9008.58096875,"end":9010.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9011.53409375,"end":9011.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9012.31034375,"end":9014.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9014.301593750002,"end":9016.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9017.187218750001,"end":9021.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9021.81096875,"end":9024.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9021.97971875,"end":9022.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9025.320968750002,"end":9026.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9027.39659375,"end":9038.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9027.41346875,"end":9028.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9029.590343750002,"end":9029.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9038.36534375,"end":9040.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9041.284718750001,"end":9043.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9041.41971875,"end":9042.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9043.410968750002,"end":9044.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9044.659718750001,"end":9046.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9046.465343750002,"end":9047.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9048.59159375,"end":9051.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9051.797843750002,"end":9053.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9053.55284375,"end":9054.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9054.531593750002,"end":9056.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9057.113468750002,"end":9061.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9062.277218750001,"end":9062.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9063.070343750001,"end":9064.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9065.601593750001,"end":9067.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9067.879718750002,"end":9069.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9070.360343750002,"end":9074.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9075.08534375,"end":9075.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9076.047218750002,"end":9076.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9076.90784375,"end":9080.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9079.793468750002,"end":9087.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9090.070343750001,"end":9092.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9092.348468750002,"end":9093.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9103.45221875,"end":9104.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9107.08034375,"end":9107.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9107.14784375,"end":9107.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9112.61534375,"end":9113.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9113.914718750002,"end":9114.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9114.336593750002,"end":9114.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9695.477843750003,"end":9699.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9719.49096875,"end":9725.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9725.66721875,"end":9726.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9730.476593750001,"end":9731.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9731.52284375,"end":9732.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9733.24409375,"end":9733.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9735.184718750003,"end":9741.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9742.10346875,"end":9744.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9744.887843750003,"end":9746.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9746.84534375,"end":9750.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9750.96284375,"end":9753.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9754.169093750003,"end":9756.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9756.93659375,"end":9760.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9761.273468750001,"end":9765.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9765.914093750001,"end":9772.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9773.01846875,"end":9773.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9773.085968750001,"end":9773.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9774.18284375,"end":9777.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9776.410343750002,"end":9776.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9778.215968750003,"end":9780.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9780.71346875,"end":9783.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9783.81846875,"end":9787.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9787.68284375,"end":9788.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9789.167843750001,"end":9792.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9792.964718750001,"end":9793.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9793.84221875,"end":9794.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9794.669093750003,"end":9796.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9796.27221875,"end":9800.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9800.676593750002,"end":9801.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9802.39784375,"end":9806.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9806.532218750002,"end":9811.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9811.965968750003,"end":9817.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9817.77096875,"end":9819.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9820.42034375,"end":9822.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9823.20471875,"end":9824.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9824.453468750002,"end":9826.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9826.765343750001,"end":9831.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9831.54096875,"end":9834.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9834.76409375,"end":9835.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9836.063468750002,"end":9841.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9841.868468750003,"end":9844.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9845.20971875,"end":9848.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9848.43284375,"end":9850.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9850.74471875,"end":9851.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9852.11159375,"end":9855.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9855.58784375,"end":9858.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9861.17346875,"end":9863.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9864.683468750001,"end":9866.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9867.13034375,"end":9868.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9868.88534375,"end":9869.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9870.20159375,"end":9871.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9872.15909375,"end":9872.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9872.90159375,"end":9876.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9877.06971875,"end":9878.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9879.11159375,"end":9882.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9882.790343750003,"end":9888.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9889.35471875,"end":9889.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9890.72159375,"end":9894.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9894.855968750002,"end":9899.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9899.867843750002,"end":9902.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9903.69846875,"end":9915.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9909.58784375,"end":9910.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9915.899093750002,"end":9920.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9920.742218750001,"end":9924.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9924.52221875,"end":9929.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9929.53409375,"end":9933.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9934.05659375,"end":9938.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9939.254093750002,"end":9940.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9940.50284375,"end":9941.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9941.80221875,"end":9942.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9942.477218750002,"end":9944.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9944.265968750002,"end":9947.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9947.320343750001,"end":9948.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9948.92346875,"end":9949.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9949.581593750001,"end":9950.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9950.425343750001,"end":9953.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9953.969093750002,"end":9954.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9955.53846875,"end":9957.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9957.31034375,"end":9959.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9959.84159375,"end":9960.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9960.75284375,"end":9965.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9966.945968750002,"end":9969.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9969.527843750002,"end":9971.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9971.519093750001,"end":9974.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9974.742218750001,"end":9979.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9979.73721875,"end":9981.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9981.762218750002,"end":9985.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9985.79534375,"end":9988.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9988.410968750002,"end":9990.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9990.63846875,"end":9994.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9995.07659375,"end":9997.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9998.02971875,"end":10002.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10003.227218750002,"end":10003.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10003.93596875,"end":10006.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10006.399718750003,"end":10008.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10008.77909375,"end":10011.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10012.390343750001,"end":10016.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10016.44034375,"end":10019.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10020.372218750003,"end":10022.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10022.684093750002,"end":10023.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10023.39284375,"end":10026.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10026.51471875,"end":10029.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10029.56909375,"end":10032.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10032.40409375,"end":10034.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10034.766593750002,"end":10039.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10039.32284375,"end":10041.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10041.90471875,"end":10043.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10043.609093750001,"end":10048.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10048.60409375,"end":10052.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10052.417843750001,"end":10057.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10058.20596875,"end":10063.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10063.25159375,"end":10066.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10066.84596875,"end":10069.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10070.102843750003,"end":10073.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10073.309093750002,"end":10076.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10076.39721875,"end":10079.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10080.210968750001,"end":10081.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10081.915343750003,"end":10086.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10086.589718750001,"end":10089.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10089.441593750002,"end":10093.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10093.305968750003,"end":10095.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10096.191593750002,"end":10100.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10100.91659375,"end":10104.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10104.325343750003,"end":10110.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10111.075343750003,"end":10115.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10111.24409375,"end":10111.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10116.120968750001,"end":10116.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10116.89721875,"end":10119.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10119.85034375,"end":10121.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10121.68971875,"end":10123.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10123.84971875,"end":10126.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10126.70159375,"end":10140.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10140.77534375,"end":10142.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10143.05346875,"end":10147.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10147.710968750001,"end":10152.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10152.773468750001,"end":10154.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10154.64659375,"end":10159.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10160.24909375,"end":10162.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10162.949093750001,"end":10162.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10163.337218750003,"end":10166.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10167.04971875,"end":10167.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10167.50534375,"end":10171.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10171.84221875,"end":10172.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10173.344093750002,"end":10175.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10175.85846875,"end":10178.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10179.199718750002,"end":10179.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10179.85784375,"end":10184.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10182.996593750002,"end":10183.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10184.430968750003,"end":10186.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10187.14784375,"end":10189.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10189.476593750001,"end":10191.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10192.480343750001,"end":10196.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10196.90159375,"end":10198.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10198.26846875,"end":10199.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10199.56784375,"end":10200.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10200.968468750001,"end":10201.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10202.250968750002,"end":10203.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10203.195968750002,"end":10205.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10205.457218750002,"end":10207.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10207.65096875,"end":10208.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10208.66346875,"end":10209.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10210.28346875,"end":10214.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10214.839718750001,"end":10215.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10215.07596875,"end":10215.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10215.784718750001,"end":10221.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10221.910343750002,"end":10222.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10223.00721875,"end":10224.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10225.065968750001,"end":10228.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10228.862843750001,"end":10230.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10230.73596875,"end":10232.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10232.32221875,"end":10232.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10233.26721875,"end":10235.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10236.11909375,"end":10240.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10241.097218750001,"end":10242.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10243.071593750003,"end":10246.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10247.05409375,"end":10248.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10248.657218750002,"end":10249.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10250.344718750002,"end":10251.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10252.04909375,"end":10253.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10253.21346875,"end":10254.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10254.73221875,"end":10256.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10256.976593750001,"end":10261.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10261.43159375,"end":10264.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10264.45221875,"end":10266.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10266.747218750003,"end":10267.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10267.18596875,"end":10270.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10271.016593750002,"end":10274.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10274.712218750003,"end":10278.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10278.509093750003,"end":10281.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10282.086593750002,"end":10285.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10285.64721875,"end":10289.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10289.882843750001,"end":10296.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10296.852218750002,"end":10298.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10298.590343750002,"end":10300.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10300.78409375,"end":10303.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10303.99034375,"end":10306.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10307.11221875,"end":10310.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10311.11159375,"end":10312.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10313.254718750002,"end":10314.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10314.368468750003,"end":10317.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10317.675968750002,"end":10320.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10320.59534375,"end":10322.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10322.70471875,"end":10324.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10325.219093750002,"end":10328.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10329.04971875,"end":10331.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10331.749718750001,"end":10333.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10334.280968750001,"end":10336.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10337.21721875,"end":10338.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10338.85409375,"end":10339.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10340.28846875,"end":10341.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10341.33471875,"end":10342.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10345.739093750002,"end":10345.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10353.704093750002,"end":10364.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10357.500968750002,"end":10359.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10362.52971875,"end":10367.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10368.402218750001,"end":10374.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10371.18659375,"end":10371.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10374.696593750003,"end":10375.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10375.43909375,"end":10375.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10375.92846875,"end":10376.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10379.20221875,"end":10380.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10383.87659375,"end":10384.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10385.47971875,"end":10389.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10389.816593750002,"end":10391.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10391.52096875,"end":10395.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10395.840968750003,"end":10402.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10402.48971875,"end":10405.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10405.98284375,"end":10410.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10410.40409375,"end":10411.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10412.294093750003,"end":10417.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10417.356593750003,"end":10419.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10420.17471875,"end":10420.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10421.085968750001,"end":10422.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10422.149093750002,"end":10437.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10437.589718750001,"end":10438.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10438.36596875,"end":10454.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10455.91596875,"end":10458.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10458.51471875,"end":10471.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10468.133468750002,"end":10468.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10470.445343750001,"end":10471.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10471.10346875,"end":10475.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10476.21659375,"end":10476.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10477.364093750002,"end":10479.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10480.18221875,"end":10485.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10481.684093750002,"end":10481.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10484.856593750003,"end":10492.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10493.26034375,"end":10494.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10494.37409375,"end":10500.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10500.43221875,"end":10503.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10502.81159375,"end":10507.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10505.039093750001,"end":10505.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10505.12346875,"end":10505.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10507.80659375,"end":10517.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10513.695968750002,"end":10514.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10517.070968750002,"end":10523.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10519.602218750002,"end":10519.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10522.53846875,"end":10523.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10524.05721875,"end":10524.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10525.17096875,"end":10527.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10528.309718750003,"end":10537.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10537.793468750002,"end":10548.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10549.487843750001,"end":10551.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10550.38221875,"end":10564.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10564.30409375,"end":10571.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10570.817843750003,"end":10574.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10574.496593750002,"end":10579.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10579.96409375,"end":10580.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10581.48284375,"end":10583.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10583.879093750002,"end":10585.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10584.01409375,"end":10584.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10585.53284375,"end":10590.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10591.675343750001,"end":10600.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10601.90159375,"end":10604.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10603.53846875,"end":10604.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10604.88846875,"end":10613.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10607.01471875,"end":10607.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10607.925968750002,"end":10608.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10609.12409375,"end":10609.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10612.85346875,"end":10621.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10616.75159375,"end":10617.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10621.999718750001,"end":10629.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10625.442218750002,"end":10625.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10627.872218750003,"end":10631.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10631.68596875,"end":10635.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10635.668468750002,"end":10639.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10639.785968750002,"end":10645.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10645.50659375,"end":10646.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10646.687843750002,"end":10647.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10648.30784375,"end":10649.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10649.62409375,"end":10650.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10650.855968750002,"end":10653.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10654.484093750001,"end":10656.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10657.032218750002,"end":10658.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10658.31471875,"end":10667.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10664.457218750002,"end":10668.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10667.76471875,"end":10668.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10668.625343750002,"end":10668.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10668.895343750002,"end":10671.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10671.03846875,"end":10671.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10672.101593750001,"end":10675.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10672.33784375,"end":10676.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10676.640968750002,"end":10683.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10681.72034375,"end":10681.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10683.27284375,"end":10684.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10685.297843750002,"end":10689.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10689.044093750003,"end":10689.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10689.53346875,"end":10690.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10690.15784375,"end":10699.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10694.039093750001,"end":10694.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10699.962218750003,"end":10700.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10700.755343750003,"end":10710.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10703.843468750001,"end":10704.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10704.02909375,"end":10704.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10710.711593750002,"end":10713.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10712.618468750003,"end":10713.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10713.867218750001,"end":10715.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10716.094718750002,"end":10717.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10716.499718750001,"end":10718.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10718.727218750002,"end":10722.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10719.925343750001,"end":10720.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10722.33846875,"end":10733.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10724.76846875,"end":10726.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10726.911593750003,"end":10727.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10731.805343750002,"end":10732.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10732.51409375,"end":10734.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10734.606593750003,"end":10737.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10737.660968750002,"end":10738.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10738.032218750002,"end":10738.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10738.20096875,"end":10743.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10738.234718750002,"end":10738.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10738.487843750001,"end":10738.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10741.00221875,"end":10741.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10744.191593750002,"end":10759.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10755.88596875,"end":10755.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10756.020968750003,"end":10756.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10759.46346875,"end":10766.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10766.46659375,"end":10773.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10772.28846875,"end":10772.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10772.727218750002,"end":10788.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10788.82596875,"end":10789.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10789.29846875,"end":10790.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10790.41221875,"end":10796.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10797.17909375,"end":10801.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10801.95471875,"end":10807.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10808.19846875,"end":10815.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10816.433468750001,"end":10816.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10816.88909375,"end":10817.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10817.024093750002,"end":10817.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10817.04096875,"end":10817.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10817.074718750002,"end":10818.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10819.352843750003,"end":10824.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10825.05659375,"end":10827.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10827.18284375,"end":10827.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10828.53284375,"end":10830.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10830.844718750002,"end":10836.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10837.628468750001,"end":10838.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10838.45534375,"end":10840.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10840.952843750001,"end":10842.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10842.977843750003,"end":10843.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10843.922843750002,"end":10848.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10849.00221875,"end":10850.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10851.938468750002,"end":10854.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10854.722843750002,"end":10858.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10859.042843750001,"end":10866.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10866.82221875,"end":10869.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10870.78784375,"end":10871.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10871.327843750001,"end":10876.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10876.91346875,"end":10877.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10878.145343750002,"end":10884.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10884.777218750001,"end":10888.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10889.13096875,"end":10896.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10894.63221875,"end":10905.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10897.78784375,"end":10898.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10905.65159375,"end":10908.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10908.773468750001,"end":10912.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10913.22846875,"end":10923.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10923.910343750002,"end":10933.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10932.094718750002,"end":10944.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10933.54596875,"end":10933.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10945.25721875,"end":10962.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10962.824093750001,"end":10964.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10964.781593750002,"end":10970.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10968.105968750002,"end":10973.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10973.860343750002,"end":10975.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10975.51409375,"end":10982.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10983.22596875,"end":10984.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10985.43659375,"end":10990.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10990.161593750003,"end":10994.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10995.24096875,"end":11017.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11017.684718750003,"end":11017.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11017.75221875,"end":11017.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11017.785968750002,"end":11021.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11017.80284375,"end":11018.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11020.249718750001,"end":11025.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11025.801593750002,"end":11029.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11030.15534375,"end":11032.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11031.589718750001,"end":11033.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11034.67784375,"end":11035.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11037.546593750001,"end":11039.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11038.238468750002,"end":11047.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11039.74034375,"end":11040.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11047.890968750002,"end":11052.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11053.105343750001,"end":11057.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11057.93159375,"end":11057.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11057.94846875,"end":11057.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11057.98221875,"end":11058.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11058.35346875,"end":11059.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11058.42096875,"end":11058.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11058.488468750002,"end":11058.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11058.539093750001,"end":11058.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11058.62346875,"end":11058.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11058.82596875,"end":11058.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11058.977843750003,"end":11059.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11060.597843750002,"end":11061.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11060.597843750002,"end":11061.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11061.05346875,"end":11061.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11061.15471875,"end":11061.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11061.67784375,"end":11061.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11061.84659375,"end":11061.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11062.352843750003,"end":11062.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11062.36971875,"end":11062.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11062.386593750001,"end":11062.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11063.669093750003,"end":11064.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11075.32971875,"end":11076.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11076.66284375,"end":11077.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11077.77659375,"end":11078.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11079.54846875,"end":11086.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11085.57284375,"end":11085.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11086.028468750003,"end":11095.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11095.765343750001,"end":11097.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11097.840968750003,"end":11098.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11099.140343750001,"end":11099.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11099.157218750002,"end":11100.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11100.794093750003,"end":11100.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11100.844718750002,"end":11101.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11101.367843750002,"end":11102.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11103.12284375,"end":11107.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11107.915343750003,"end":11132.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11124.419093750003,"end":11124.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11124.469718750002,"end":11124.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11124.503468750001,"end":11124.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11124.722843750002,"end":11124.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11133.329093750002,"end":11136.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11136.78846875,"end":11139.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11139.758468750002,"end":11144.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11145.15846875,"end":11156.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11156.835968750001,"end":11162.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11162.370968750001,"end":11165.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11165.847218750001,"end":11173.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11173.778468750003,"end":11214.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11214.91971875,"end":11226.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11226.52971875,"end":11226.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11226.968468750001,"end":11231.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11231.71034375,"end":11237.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11237.734718750002,"end":11239.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11239.38846875,"end":11240.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11240.519093750001,"end":11245.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11245.800968750002,"end":11249.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11249.53034375,"end":11250.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11250.981593750003,"end":11253.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11254.00221875,"end":11257.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11258.11971875,"end":11265.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11264.75159375,"end":11267.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11267.367218750001,"end":11273.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11273.003468750001,"end":11274.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11274.437843750002,"end":11280.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11279.500343750002,"end":11281.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11281.59284375,"end":11287.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11287.937843750002,"end":11293.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11291.363468750002,"end":11291.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11293.60784375,"end":11295.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11295.852218750002,"end":11300.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11300.290343750003,"end":11305.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11305.825343750003,"end":11309.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11309.58846875,"end":11310.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11310.972218750001,"end":11314.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11314.53284375,"end":11322.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11321.755343750003,"end":11323.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11323.56096875,"end":11325.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11325.434093750002,"end":11330.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11330.327843750001,"end":11331.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11331.660968750002,"end":11334.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11334.411593750003,"end":11338.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11338.680968750003,"end":11338.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11339.237843750001,"end":11343.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11344.06409375,"end":11345.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11345.903468750003,"end":11349.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11349.683468750001,"end":11349.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11349.953468750002,"end":11350.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11349.97034375,"end":11350.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11350.864718750003,"end":11356.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11356.905968750001,"end":11359.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11358.89721875,"end":11359.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11359.977218750002,"end":11374.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11372.565968750001,"end":11373.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11373.780968750001,"end":11378.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11378.60721875,"end":11384.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11384.749718750001,"end":11396.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11396.27534375,"end":11396.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11396.86596875,"end":11404.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11403.261593750001,"end":11403.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11405.10096875,"end":11422.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11413.84221875,"end":11413.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11413.89284375,"end":11413.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11413.99409375,"end":11414.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11422.92096875,"end":11429.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11426.160968750002,"end":11426.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11427.477218750002,"end":11428.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11429.45159375,"end":11435.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11433.636593750001,"end":11435.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11435.222843750002,"end":11436.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11436.977843750003,"end":11438.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11439.644093750001,"end":11446.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11446.47846875,"end":11448.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11448.925343750001,"end":11451.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11451.97971875,"end":11452.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11452.317218750002,"end":11468.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11469.00659375,"end":11474.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11474.76096875,"end":11482.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11482.894718750002,"end":11488.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11488.76721875,"end":11493.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11491.551593750002,"end":11492.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11493.964718750001,"end":11498.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11498.11596875,"end":11520.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11520.711593750002,"end":11535.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11531.781593750002,"end":11531.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11531.81534375,"end":11532.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11534.75159375,"end":11535.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11535.66284375,"end":11536.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11535.98346875,"end":11537.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11537.738468750002,"end":11544.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11540.52284375,"end":11540.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11542.379093750002,"end":11543.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11543.99909375,"end":11546.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11546.47971875,"end":11547.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11547.340343750002,"end":11547.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11547.72846875,"end":11552.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11552.89221875,"end":11563.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11563.472843750002,"end":11589.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11589.780968750001,"end":11591.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11591.687843750002,"end":11598.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11598.690968750001,"end":11601.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11601.47534375,"end":11602.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11603.179718750001,"end":11606.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11606.95971875,"end":11614.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11615.565968750001,"end":11617.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11617.77659375,"end":11621.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11622.164093750001,"end":11625.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11625.589718750001,"end":11628.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11629.25159375,"end":11632.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11632.47471875,"end":11633.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11633.33534375,"end":11633.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11634.145343750002,"end":11635.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11636.44034375,"end":11639.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11639.79846875,"end":11643.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11644.35471875,"end":11648.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11648.55659375,"end":11648.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11648.77596875,"end":11648.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11648.97846875,"end":11650.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11651.61096875,"end":11658.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11659.05284375,"end":11659.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11660.149718750003,"end":11664.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11664.85784375,"end":11669.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11669.481593750003,"end":11681.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11682.05346875,"end":11688.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11687.402843750002,"end":11688.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11689.27596875,"end":11692.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11691.23346875,"end":11692.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11692.262843750003,"end":11695.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11695.75596875,"end":11697.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11698.523468750001,"end":11699.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11700.66659375,"end":11704.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11704.952843750001,"end":11709.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11709.762218750002,"end":11712.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11709.77909375,"end":11710.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11710.082843750002,"end":11710.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11713.27221875,"end":11718.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11717.76096875,"end":11726.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11726.24909375,"end":11730.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11731.125968750002,"end":11732.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11732.914718750002,"end":11733.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11734.26471875,"end":11740.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11740.62659375,"end":11745.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11745.368468750003,"end":11751.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11751.12284375,"end":11751.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11751.76409375,"end":11765.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11766.040343750003,"end":11768.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11768.33534375,"end":11782.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11782.628468750001,"end":11824.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11785.919093750003,"end":11785.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11785.952843750001,"end":11786.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11824.64721875,"end":11829.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11829.321593750003,"end":11832.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11830.35096875,"end":11831.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11831.22846875,"end":11831.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11831.414093750001,"end":11831.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11831.430968750003,"end":11831.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11831.532218750002,"end":11831.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11831.565968750001,"end":11831.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11831.59971875,"end":11832.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11832.004718750002,"end":11832.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11832.629093750002,"end":11837.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11843.36159375,"end":11848.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11850.75284375,"end":11851.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11852.507843750001,"end":11853.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11853.55409375,"end":11854.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11855.27534375,"end":11858.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11857.215968750003,"end":11857.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11858.886593750001,"end":11861.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11861.92409375,"end":11863.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11863.24034375,"end":11863.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11863.425968750002,"end":11864.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11864.30346875,"end":11867.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11867.47596875,"end":11873.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11874.15846875,"end":11877.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11877.28034375,"end":11881.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11882.02221875,"end":11888.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11885.29596875,"end":11885.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11885.39721875,"end":11885.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11885.464718750001,"end":11885.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11889.07596875,"end":11889.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11890.004093750002,"end":11893.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11893.93596875,"end":11896.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11896.281593750002,"end":11896.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11896.93971875,"end":11912.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11912.27909375,"end":11914.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11914.202843750001,"end":11918.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11918.894093750001,"end":11922.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11922.927218750003,"end":11928.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11928.765968750002,"end":11932.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11932.95096875,"end":11934.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11934.70596875,"end":11942.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11943.278468750003,"end":11945.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11945.759093750003,"end":11946.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11946.87284375,"end":11949.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11949.67409375,"end":11950.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11950.855343750001,"end":11954.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11954.348468750002,"end":11955.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11955.968468750001,"end":11960.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11962.38096875,"end":11963.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11963.59596875,"end":11965.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11966.532218750002,"end":11967.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11967.848468750002,"end":11975.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11971.81409375,"end":11971.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11975.25659375,"end":11982.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11982.22596875,"end":11982.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11982.32721875,"end":11982.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11982.394718750002,"end":11983.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11983.339718750001,"end":12025.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11997.430343750002,"end":11997.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11997.46409375,"end":11997.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11997.480968750002,"end":11997.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12025.746593750002,"end":12027.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12027.332843750002,"end":12033.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12033.42471875,"end":12037.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12037.59284375,"end":12044.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12041.457218750002,"end":12046.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12046.18221875,"end":12055.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12051.649718750003,"end":12052.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12054.72096875,"end":12063.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12055.66596875,"end":12055.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12063.394718750002,"end":12064.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12064.440968750001,"end":12070.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12066.01034375,"end":12066.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12066.11159375,"end":12066.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12066.21284375,"end":12066.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12071.29221875,"end":12073.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12074.582843750002,"end":12077.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12077.19846875,"end":12082.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12079.375343750002,"end":12079.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12079.71284375,"end":12079.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12083.30721875,"end":12085.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12085.872218750003,"end":12088.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12089.145968750003,"end":12091.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12091.94721875,"end":12095.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12094.782218750002,"end":12095.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12095.254718750002,"end":12095.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12095.727218750002,"end":12095.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12095.777843750002,"end":12095.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12095.84534375,"end":12096.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12096.18284375,"end":12096.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12097.17846875,"end":12102.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12097.347218750001,"end":12097.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12097.38096875,"end":12097.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12102.797843750002,"end":12120.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12114.37409375,"end":12114.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12114.82971875,"end":12115.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12119.082218750002,"end":12119.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12120.58409375,"end":12122.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12122.558468750001,"end":12126.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12127.114718750003,"end":12131.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12130.540343750003,"end":12132.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12132.76784375,"end":12136.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12134.99534375,"end":12147.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12145.609718750002,"end":12146.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12147.972218750001,"end":12173.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12153.91221875,"end":12154.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12158.012843750003,"end":12161.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12166.04534375,"end":12168.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12172.829093750002,"end":12182.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12176.929718750001,"end":12177.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12178.296593750001,"end":12178.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12178.684718750003,"end":12178.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12183.39284375,"end":12197.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12193.46721875,"end":12194.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12197.230343750001,"end":12197.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12197.719718750002,"end":12205.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12204.790343750003,"end":12218.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12218.94846875,"end":12231.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12222.441593750002,"end":12222.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12231.199718750002,"end":12240.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12240.51471875,"end":12243.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12243.07971875,"end":12250.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12249.458468750003,"end":12268.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12269.117843750002,"end":12270.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12270.906593750002,"end":12271.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12271.24409375,"end":12273.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12273.555968750003,"end":12275.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12275.68221875,"end":12277.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12277.487843750001,"end":12281.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12281.21721875,"end":12285.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12285.53721875,"end":12285.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12285.621593750002,"end":12285.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12285.891593750002,"end":12285.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12285.942218750002,"end":12286.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12286.48221875,"end":12286.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12286.769093750001,"end":12286.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12286.95471875,"end":12291.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12292.08471875,"end":12297.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12292.35471875,"end":12292.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12297.51846875,"end":12303.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12299.88096875,"end":12300.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12303.711593750002,"end":12315.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12318.527843750002,"end":12321.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12321.750968750002,"end":12322.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12322.18971875,"end":12329.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12328.922843750002,"end":12338.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12331.52159375,"end":12332.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12338.59221875,"end":12343.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12344.380343750003,"end":12347.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12347.485343750002,"end":12349.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12349.425968750002,"end":12356.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12357.120968750001,"end":12358.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12357.35721875,"end":12357.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12358.57221875,"end":12359.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12359.16284375,"end":12359.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12359.85471875,"end":12360.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12361.035968750002,"end":12361.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12361.96409375,"end":12363.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12418.815968750001,"end":12419.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12419.33909375,"end":12420.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12421.465343750002,"end":12421.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12422.59596875,"end":12423.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12424.85721875,"end":12426.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12427.000343750002,"end":12428.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12428.367218750001,"end":12428.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12428.434718750003,"end":12438.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12438.509093750003,"end":12441.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12441.563468750002,"end":12444.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12444.58409375,"end":12453.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12447.55409375,"end":12447.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12447.97596875,"end":12448.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12453.93284375,"end":12462.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12464.243468750003,"end":12466.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12466.53846875,"end":12470.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12470.031593750002,"end":12473.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12471.094718750002,"end":12472.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12473.609093750001,"end":12474.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12474.80721875,"end":12478.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12478.317218750002,"end":12480.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12480.24096875,"end":12482.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12482.45159375,"end":12488.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12488.13846875,"end":12488.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12488.72909375,"end":12493.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12493.082843750002,"end":12499.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12497.90909375,"end":12498.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12499.64721875,"end":12505.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12505.23284375,"end":12507.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12507.24096875,"end":12509.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12508.77659375,"end":12512.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12510.04221875,"end":12510.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12513.04596875,"end":12514.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12513.83909375,"end":12514.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12514.598468750002,"end":12515.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12514.750343750002,"end":12515.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12515.745968750001,"end":12516.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12516.37034375,"end":12520.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12519.25596875,"end":12521.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12521.331593750001,"end":12526.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12525.58409375,"end":12530.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12528.402218750001,"end":12529.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12531.152843750002,"end":12532.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12531.38909375,"end":12532.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12532.722218750001,"end":12532.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12533.093468750001,"end":12535.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12533.12721875,"end":12536.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12536.468468750001,"end":12537.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12537.88596875,"end":12539.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12539.910968750002,"end":12540.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12541.480343750001,"end":12542.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12542.222843750002,"end":12542.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12542.543468750002,"end":12550.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12545.918468750002,"end":12546.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12547.504718750002,"end":12548.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12549.10784375,"end":12554.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12550.727843750003,"end":12551.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12555.58784375,"end":12556.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12556.07721875,"end":12560.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12556.937843750002,"end":12557.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12558.794093750003,"end":12564.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12565.898468750001,"end":12565.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12565.93221875,"end":12566.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12566.03346875,"end":12566.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12566.03346875,"end":12569.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12566.97846875,"end":12567.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12567.07971875,"end":12567.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12569.813468750002,"end":12573.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12573.171593750001,"end":12576.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12577.15409375,"end":12593.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12591.059093750002,"end":12602.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12601.21784375,"end":12603.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12602.68596875,"end":12609.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12605.63909375,"end":12606.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12609.80721875,"end":12614.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12614.32971875,"end":12615.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12615.29159375,"end":12617.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12617.805968750003,"end":12620.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12620.77596875,"end":12621.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12621.704093750002,"end":12622.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12622.851593750001,"end":12626.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12622.919093750003,"end":12624.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12625.83846875,"end":12627.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12627.087218750003,"end":12629.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12629.027843750002,"end":12632.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12632.21721875,"end":12637.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12635.01846875,"end":12642.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12643.40534375,"end":12647.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12645.379718750002,"end":12651.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12651.15096875,"end":12653.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12652.382843750001,"end":12653.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12653.78346875,"end":12655.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12655.082843750002,"end":12655.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12656.922218750002,"end":12657.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12657.73221875,"end":12660.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12660.989093750002,"end":12662.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12662.625968750002,"end":12664.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12664.81971875,"end":12665.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12666.473468750002,"end":12669.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12670.18596875,"end":12671.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12672.41346875,"end":12683.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12684.05721875,"end":12686.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12686.655968750001,"end":12691.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12691.937843750002,"end":12694.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12695.059718750003,"end":12697.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12697.320968750002,"end":12699.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12699.379718750002,"end":12711.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12711.512843750003,"end":12738.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12738.563468750002,"end":12746.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12746.27534375,"end":12748.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12748.418468750002,"end":12751.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12752.45159375,"end":12756.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12765.90096875,"end":12774.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12773.832218750002,"end":12777.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12779.805968750003,"end":12780.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12783.265343750001,"end":12784.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12783.99096875,"end":12784.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12785.05409375,"end":12786.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12786.555968750003,"end":12790.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12790.673468750003,"end":12795.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12795.668468750002,"end":12795.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12795.75284375,"end":12803.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12803.464718750001,"end":12830.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12830.582843750002,"end":12835.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12835.577843750001,"end":12843.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12843.559718750003,"end":12848.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12848.58846875,"end":12856.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12856.300343750001,"end":12858.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12858.44346875,"end":12882.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12882.625343750002,"end":12882.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12882.827843750001,"end":12889.814093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12890.235968750003,"end":12892.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12893.67846875,"end":12894.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12895.011593750001,"end":12896.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12896.918468750002,"end":12898.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12899.196593750003,"end":12900.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12901.10346875,"end":12902.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12902.892218750003,"end":12903.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12904.00596875,"end":12908.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12909.01784375,"end":12916.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12917.387843750003,"end":12919.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12919.93596875,"end":12923.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12922.41659375,"end":12927.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12927.69846875,"end":12928.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12928.94721875,"end":12929.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12929.11596875,"end":12935.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12935.39346875,"end":12942.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12943.274093750002,"end":12947.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12947.661593750003,"end":12947.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12947.72909375,"end":12950.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12951.593468750001,"end":12962.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12958.815968750001,"end":12961.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12962.32596875,"end":12971.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12971.860343750002,"end":12975.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12975.707843750002,"end":12981.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12981.546593750001,"end":12983.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12984.06096875,"end":12987.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12987.824093750001,"end":12990.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12991.266593750002,"end":12993.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12994.000343750002,"end":12996.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12996.61596875,"end":12999.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13000.09221875,"end":13001.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13002.454718750003,"end":13007.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13007.43284375,"end":13014.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13014.030968750001,"end":13015.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13016.157218750002,"end":13018.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13018.064093750003,"end":13019.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13019.44784375,"end":13023.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13024.206593750001,"end":13029.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13030.26471875,"end":13033.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13033.724093750003,"end":13040.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13039.765343750001,"end":13042.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13042.043468750002,"end":13046.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13047.004718750002,"end":13052.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13051.476593750001,"end":13052.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13052.472218750001,"end":13055.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13055.745968750001,"end":13058.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13058.78346875,"end":13061.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13062.360968750003,"end":13064.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13065.06096875,"end":13066.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13066.86659375,"end":13068.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13069.195343750001,"end":13071.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13071.11909375,"end":13074.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13075.320968750002,"end":13090.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13090.035968750002,"end":13096.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13097.207843750002,"end":13101.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13101.34221875,"end":13102.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13103.24909375,"end":13106.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13106.337218750003,"end":13108.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13108.78409375,"end":13112.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13113.407843750003,"end":13117.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13115.652218750001,"end":13116.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13117.407218750002,"end":13125.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13121.254718750002,"end":13121.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13124.849093750003,"end":13127.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13128.02159375,"end":13129.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13128.797843750002,"end":13130.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13130.468468750001,"end":13132.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13132.105343750001,"end":13138.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13138.534718750001,"end":13139.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13139.00721875,"end":13142.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13142.41596875,"end":13147.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13146.48284375,"end":13168.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13149.28409375,"end":13150.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13168.84221875,"end":13169.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13170.023468750001,"end":13180.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13170.090968750003,"end":13171.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13180.92471875,"end":13189.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13188.77159375,"end":13210.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13190.492843750002,"end":13190.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13201.05659375,"end":13202.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13207.38471875,"end":13209.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13210.270343750002,"end":13215.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13213.122218750003,"end":13213.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13214.421593750001,"end":13218.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13215.687218750001,"end":13215.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13219.382843750001,"end":13220.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13224.73221875,"end":13226.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13227.617843750002,"end":13228.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13229.79471875,"end":13230.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13232.140343750001,"end":13252.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13252.710968750001,"end":13257.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13258.07721875,"end":13266.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13267.814093750003,"end":13282.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13282.613468750002,"end":13284.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13284.874718750001,"end":13288.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13290.325343750003,"end":13291.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13291.793468750002,"end":13314.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13314.92909375,"end":13316.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13315.114718750003,"end":13320.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13318.253468750001,"end":13320.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13320.970343750003,"end":13328.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13329.05346875,"end":13340.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13337.777843750002,"end":13342.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13342.18221875,"end":13342.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13342.469093750002,"end":13354.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13354.230968750002,"end":13360.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13360.255343750003,"end":13361.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13360.52534375,"end":13364.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13364.946593750003,"end":13368.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13368.456593750001,"end":13369.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13369.620968750001,"end":13374.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13374.41346875,"end":13378.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13379.020343750002,"end":13381.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13381.855343750001,"end":13384.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13384.875968750002,"end":13390.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13390.613468750002,"end":13390.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13391.085968750001,"end":13393.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13393.70159375,"end":13396.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13396.890968750002,"end":13398.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13399.45596875,"end":13400.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13401.059093750002,"end":13410.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13408.99034375,"end":13409.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13410.42471875,"end":13414.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13415.470343750003,"end":13415.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13415.75721875,"end":13415.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13415.824718750002,"end":13416.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13415.824718750002,"end":13429.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13416.90471875,"end":13416.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13429.392218750003,"end":13432.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13431.602843750003,"end":13433.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13433.745968750001,"end":13434.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13434.859718750002,"end":13438.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13438.555343750002,"end":13446.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13442.976593750001,"end":13443.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13446.520343750002,"end":13448.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13447.39784375,"end":13450.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13450.722218750001,"end":13453.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13453.202843750001,"end":13453.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13453.320968750002,"end":13453.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13453.33784375,"end":13453.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13453.371593750002,"end":13453.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13453.540343750003,"end":13453.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13453.742843750002,"end":13453.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13454.519093750001,"end":13455.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13457.387843750003,"end":13457.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13458.754718750002,"end":13467.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13468.339718750001,"end":13470.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13480.60784375,"end":13483.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13484.20221875,"end":13484.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13484.87721875,"end":13486.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13486.83471875,"end":13488.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13488.184718750003,"end":13490.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13490.42909375,"end":13491.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13493.83784375,"end":13493.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13493.85471875,"end":13493.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13493.871593750002,"end":13494.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13495.42409375,"end":13498.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13498.96784375,"end":13502.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13502.798468750003,"end":13503.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13503.33846875,"end":13510.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13511.168468750002,"end":13512.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13513.581593750001,"end":13519.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13519.96034375,"end":13522.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13522.930343750002,"end":13523.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13524.33096875,"end":13526.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13527.38534375,"end":13528.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13529.22471875,"end":13531.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13531.55346875,"end":13532.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13532.17784375,"end":13534.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13534.87784375,"end":13536.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13537.493468750003,"end":13539.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13540.075343750003,"end":13541.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13541.796593750001,"end":13546.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13546.63971875,"end":13548.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13548.69846875,"end":13550.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13551.044093750003,"end":13552.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13553.81159375,"end":13565.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13565.50596875,"end":13567.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13568.391593750002,"end":13568.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13569.04971875,"end":13571.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13569.707843750002,"end":13570.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13572.42471875,"end":13574.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13575.614093750002,"end":13578.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13578.786593750003,"end":13585.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13586.44784375,"end":13586.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13587.19034375,"end":13592.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13592.640968750002,"end":13596.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13596.47159375,"end":13606.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13606.765343750001,"end":13618.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13619.016593750002,"end":13619.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13620.61971875,"end":13623.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13624.36596875,"end":13626.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13627.42034375,"end":13630.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13631.250968750002,"end":13632.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13633.02284375,"end":13638.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13638.675968750002,"end":13644.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13645.206593750001,"end":13647.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13647.34971875,"end":13650.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13650.910343750002,"end":13654.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13654.42034375,"end":13657.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13658.06534375,"end":13665.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13666.519718750002,"end":13670.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13671.160343750002,"end":13675.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13675.379093750002,"end":13677.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13677.57284375,"end":13681.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13681.555343750002,"end":13693.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13694.24534375,"end":13694.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13695.359093750001,"end":13696.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13695.56159375,"end":13695.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13695.595343750003,"end":13696.017218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13697.40096875,"end":13697.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13697.755343750003,"end":13703.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13703.93159375,"end":13706.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13706.969093750002,"end":13711.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13707.27284375,"end":13711.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13711.761593750001,"end":13711.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13711.812218750001,"end":13711.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13711.99784375,"end":13712.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13712.031593750002,"end":13713.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13712.79096875,"end":13717.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13715.204093750002,"end":13720.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13720.215968750003,"end":13723.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13723.30409375,"end":13732.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13733.277218750001,"end":13751.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13750.675343750001,"end":13752.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13752.126593750003,"end":13754.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13753.08846875,"end":13760.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13758.387218750002,"end":13777.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13776.645968750003,"end":13782.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13779.379718750002,"end":13781.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13783.31159375,"end":13786.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13786.180343750002,"end":13806.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13803.98346875,"end":13804.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13806.548468750003,"end":13807.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13807.645343750002,"end":13815.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13815.964718750001,"end":13816.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13815.964718750001,"end":13818.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13819.508468750002,"end":13837.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13837.497218750003,"end":13838.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13838.610968750003,"end":13839.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13839.859718750002,"end":13840.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13841.42909375,"end":13842.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13842.99846875,"end":13859.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13847.21721875,"end":13847.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13859.92409375,"end":13872.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13860.14346875,"end":13860.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13872.90096875,"end":13874.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13874.942843750003,"end":13877.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13878.43596875,"end":13880.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13880.882843750001,"end":13883.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13883.97096875,"end":13904.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13893.89346875,"end":13893.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13893.927218750003,"end":13895.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13902.516593750002,"end":13914.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13904.22096875,"end":13904.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13910.76846875,"end":13911.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13911.595343750003,"end":13911.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13915.223468750002,"end":13934.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13934.96721875,"end":13936.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13937.24534375,"end":13940.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13941.059093750002,"end":13942.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13942.814093750003,"end":13950.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13950.35721875,"end":13951.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13950.42471875,"end":13950.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13951.352843750003,"end":13954.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13954.94721875,"end":13959.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13959.65534375,"end":13963.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13964.009093750003,"end":13965.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13964.937218750001,"end":13966.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13966.523468750001,"end":13969.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13970.15159375,"end":13970.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13970.77596875,"end":13970.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13970.97846875,"end":13971.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13971.02909375,"end":13971.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13971.974093750003,"end":13972.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13972.024718750003,"end":13972.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13972.66596875,"end":13975.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13975.062218750001,"end":13990.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13991.464718750001,"end":13995.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13991.532218750002,"end":13991.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13991.54909375,"end":13992.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13994.417843750001,"end":13997.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13997.759093750003,"end":13998.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":13999.21034375,"end":14006.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14005.69034375,"end":14017.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14010.22971875,"end":14010.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14010.837218750003,"end":14012.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14013.300968750002,"end":14014.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":14017.367843750002,"end":14028.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14028.10034375,"end":14032.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14033.80409375,"end":14034.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14034.495968750001,"end":14036.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14036.41971875,"end":14037.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14038.562843750002,"end":14049.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14050.054718750001,"end":14051.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14051.742218750001,"end":14055.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14056.24784375,"end":14058.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14059.184093750002,"end":14060.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14061.360968750003,"end":14066.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14066.524718750003,"end":14080.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14080.159718750001,"end":14080.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14080.227218750002,"end":14080.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14081.47596875,"end":14081.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14083.04534375,"end":14095.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14096.22471875,"end":14101.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14099.27909375,"end":14099.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14101.38846875,"end":14101.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14101.523468750001,"end":14112.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14112.542843750001,"end":14117.892218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14118.314093750003,"end":14123.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14123.089718750001,"end":14129.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14129.586593750002,"end":14132.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14132.809718750003,"end":14132.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14132.87721875,"end":14132.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14132.894093750001,"end":14132.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14132.94471875,"end":14132.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14132.97846875,"end":14139.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14136.79221875,"end":14137.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14137.46721875,"end":14137.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14137.61909375,"end":14138.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14140.032218750002,"end":14144.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14140.15034375,"end":14140.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14141.68596875,"end":14141.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14143.27221875,"end":14143.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14144.875343750002,"end":14152.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14144.95971875,"end":14146.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14146.292843750001,"end":14146.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14148.824093750001,"end":14149.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14152.82346875,"end":14158.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14158.594718750002,"end":14179.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14180.19471875,"end":14184.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14183.92409375,"end":14184.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14184.61596875,"end":14185.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14184.91971875,"end":14193.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14194.74096875,"end":14199.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14199.972218750001,"end":14217.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14204.86596875,"end":14205.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14216.172218750002,"end":14229.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14218.41659375,"end":14218.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14220.019718750002,"end":14220.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14229.621593750002,"end":14231.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14232.06846875,"end":14232.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14232.91221875,"end":14235.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14234.852843750003,"end":14234.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14235.629093750002,"end":14238.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14236.253468750001,"end":14236.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14238.93659375,"end":14244.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14244.99471875,"end":14246.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14247.30659375,"end":14251.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14252.605343750001,"end":14255.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14254.32659375,"end":14255.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14256.13221875,"end":14260.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14260.23284375,"end":14260.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14260.840343750002,"end":14262.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14262.71346875,"end":14263.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14263.995968750001,"end":14269.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14267.99534375,"end":14271.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14272.21409375,"end":14273.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14274.42471875,"end":14277.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14278.238468750002,"end":14289.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14290.70909375,"end":14292.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14293.03784375,"end":14293.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14294.067218750002,"end":14294.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14295.332843750002,"end":14296.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14297.914718750002,"end":14298.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14300.175968750002,"end":14302.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14305.086593750002,"end":14310.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14312.07284375,"end":14312.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14313.60846875,"end":14314.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14316.426593750002,"end":14321.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14320.425968750002,"end":14320.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14322.062843750002,"end":14324.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14323.109093750001,"end":14326.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14326.433468750001,"end":14326.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14326.500968750002,"end":14326.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14326.551593750002,"end":14332.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14332.761593750001,"end":14335.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14336.929718750001,"end":14338.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14338.667843750001,"end":14341.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14342.27909375,"end":14345.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14345.519093750001,"end":14346.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14347.493468750003,"end":14349.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14349.82221875,"end":14349.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14350.395968750003,"end":14352.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14352.42096875,"end":14353.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14352.47159375,"end":14355.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14356.15034375,"end":14356.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14357.43284375,"end":14358.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14357.449718750002,"end":14357.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14358.00659375,"end":14358.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14358.394718750002,"end":14378.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14377.63221875,"end":14382.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14379.690968750001,"end":14381.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14383.20096875,"end":14398.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":14398.118468750003,"end":14398.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14398.472843750002,"end":14398.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14398.574093750001,"end":14413.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14401.72971875,"end":14401.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":14401.746593750002,"end":14401.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14401.88159375,"end":14401.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14405.30721875,"end":14405.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14405.864093750002,"end":14406.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14414.099093750003,"end":14421.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14415.28034375,"end":14416.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14420.07284375,"end":14420.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14421.034718750001,"end":14424.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14424.595343750003,"end":14428.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14429.421593750001,"end":14431.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14431.98659375,"end":14436.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14436.25596875,"end":14440.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14438.331593750001,"end":14444.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14444.507843750001,"end":14444.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14444.524718750003,"end":14444.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14444.91284375,"end":14445.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14445.570968750002,"end":14445.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14445.60471875,"end":14445.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14445.722843750002,"end":14445.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14445.97596875,"end":14450.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14451.29159375,"end":14455.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14456.25284375,"end":14458.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14458.024718750003,"end":14463.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14458.277843750002,"end":14458.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14463.94784375,"end":14465.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14465.550968750002,"end":14465.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14467.035968750002,"end":14467.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14467.89659375,"end":14469.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14474.71409375,"end":14476.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14478.949718750002,"end":14479.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14482.898468750001,"end":14485.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14486.020343750002,"end":14486.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14486.40846875,"end":14488.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14486.56034375,"end":14486.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14488.19721875,"end":14488.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14488.51784375,"end":14489.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14494.980968750002,"end":14499.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14495.63909375,"end":14496.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14500.33034375,"end":14503.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14503.890968750002,"end":14507.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14508.19409375,"end":14513.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14513.543468750002,"end":14514.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14514.84284375,"end":14524.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14524.782218750002,"end":14530.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14530.637843750003,"end":14537.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14537.82659375,"end":14544.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14544.340343750002,"end":14548.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14549.284718750001,"end":14554.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14555.91659375,"end":14584.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14585.12721875,"end":14613.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14612.009093750003,"end":14612.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14613.03846875,"end":14624.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14624.749718750001,"end":14647.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14646.484718750002,"end":14657.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14657.942843750003,"end":14661.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14661.689093750003,"end":14663.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14664.473468750002,"end":14666.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14666.54909375,"end":14667.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14667.831593750001,"end":14675.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14676.269093750001,"end":14676.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14677.26471875,"end":14689.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14689.85346875,"end":14703.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14704.14659375,"end":14709.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14709.293468750002,"end":14712.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14712.094718750002,"end":14722.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14722.894718750002,"end":14726.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14727.282218750002,"end":14728.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14728.71659375,"end":14731.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14731.349093750003,"end":14733.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14734.21784375,"end":14736.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14737.255343750003,"end":14740.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14740.37721875,"end":14743.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14743.49909375,"end":14745.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14745.574718750002,"end":14753.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14753.67471875,"end":14756.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14757.20159375,"end":14760.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14760.441593750002,"end":14763.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14763.95159375,"end":14764.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14764.812218750001,"end":14767.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14768.085968750001,"end":14768.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14768.86221875,"end":14769.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14769.58784375,"end":14771.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14771.832218750002,"end":14774.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14774.414093750001,"end":14785.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14783.83034375,"end":14791.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14786.648468750001,"end":14787.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14791.74471875,"end":14800.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14800.40159375,"end":14806.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14807.489093750002,"end":14808.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14808.99096875,"end":14811.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14812.450343750003,"end":14814.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14814.762218750002,"end":14815.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14815.926593750002,"end":14822.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14822.558468750001,"end":14827.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14827.722218750001,"end":14830.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14830.75971875,"end":14837.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14837.88096875,"end":14849.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14842.26846875,"end":14844.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14849.895968750003,"end":14855.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14850.452843750001,"end":14850.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14855.24534375,"end":14855.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14855.27909375,"end":14856.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14855.515343750001,"end":14857.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14858.02971875,"end":14860.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14861.08409375,"end":14877.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14871.985343750002,"end":14873.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14876.187218750001,"end":14876.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14878.532843750003,"end":14880.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14881.13159375,"end":14883.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14892.82596875,"end":14895.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14895.222218750001,"end":14896.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14902.86659375,"end":14904.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14905.07721875,"end":14909.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14910.359093750001,"end":14914.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14914.645343750002,"end":14914.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14914.88159375,"end":14914.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14915.15159375,"end":14920.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14921.024093750002,"end":14933.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14934.38909375,"end":14936.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14937.257843750001,"end":14940.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14940.83534375,"end":14943.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14944.36221875,"end":14953.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14953.49159375,"end":14954.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14954.942843750003,"end":14958.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14958.689093750003,"end":14960.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14961.034718750001,"end":14966.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14967.075968750003,"end":14969.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14970.450968750003,"end":14974.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14975.20971875,"end":14976.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14977.36971875,"end":14978.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14979.47909375,"end":14981.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14981.95971875,"end":14982.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14983.410968750002,"end":14986.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14987.359718750002,"end":14990.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14990.363468750002,"end":14991.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14992.000343750002,"end":14992.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14992.97909375,"end":14994.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14995.223468750002,"end":14997.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14997.265343750001,"end":14997.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14997.653468750003,"end":15000.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15000.640343750001,"end":15001.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15002.547218750002,"end":15003.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15004.133468750002,"end":15008.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15010.664093750001,"end":15015.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15015.28784375,"end":15015.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15015.524093750002,"end":15017.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15015.54096875,"end":15015.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15019.810343750003,"end":15021.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15021.14346875,"end":15023.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15024.484718750002,"end":15031.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15032.348468750002,"end":15037.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15037.984718750002,"end":15039.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15039.570968750002,"end":15039.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15039.95909375,"end":15041.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15041.055968750003,"end":15041.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15041.562218750001,"end":15043.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15043.857218750003,"end":15046.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15047.519093750001,"end":15051.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15052.446593750003,"end":15054.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15055.433468750001,"end":15060.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15060.63096875,"end":15063.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15064.090343750002,"end":15066.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15067.39784375,"end":15070.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15071.414093750001,"end":15073.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15073.97909375,"end":15081.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15081.404093750003,"end":15085.622843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15086.044718750003,"end":15088.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15089.031593750002,"end":15093.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15093.368468750003,"end":15096.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15097.047218750002,"end":15097.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15097.941593750002,"end":15098.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15099.409718750001,"end":15108.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15102.177218750003,"end":15102.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15103.66221875,"end":15103.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15103.71284375,"end":15103.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15103.847843750002,"end":15103.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":15103.949093750001,"end":15104.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15109.09596875,"end":15114.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15115.137218750002,"end":15117.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15117.567218750002,"end":15117.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15118.208468750003,"end":15118.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15119.980343750001,"end":15120.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15120.95909375,"end":15124.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15125.211593750002,"end":15127.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15128.29971875,"end":15130.341593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15130.274093750002,"end":15130.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15130.645343750002,"end":15135.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15135.62346875,"end":15140.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15140.129093750002,"end":15144.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15143.06534375,"end":15143.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15144.58409375,"end":15145.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15145.394093750001,"end":15147.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15147.250343750002,"end":15149.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15149.933468750001,"end":15151.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15151.75596875,"end":15156.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15156.86909375,"end":15160.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15161.08784375,"end":15170.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15169.64346875,"end":15174.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15171.027218750001,"end":15171.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15174.469718750002,"end":15179.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15179.515343750001,"end":15184.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15184.72971875,"end":15185.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15185.25284375,"end":15188.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15188.813468750002,"end":15194.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15194.95596875,"end":15201.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15201.97596875,"end":15207.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15202.00971875,"end":15202.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15207.780968750001,"end":15215.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15216.10034375,"end":15221.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15221.500343750002,"end":15224.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15224.706593750001,"end":15227.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15227.59221875,"end":15229.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15230.07284375,"end":15233.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15233.835968750001,"end":15238.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15235.017218750003,"end":15235.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15238.88159375,"end":15240.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15240.46784375,"end":15240.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15240.83909375,"end":15240.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15240.957218750002,"end":15242.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15242.05409375,"end":15243.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15242.52659375,"end":15244.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15244.230968750002,"end":15247.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15246.25596875,"end":15249.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15249.47909375,"end":15255.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15255.739718750003,"end":15258.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15258.794093750003,"end":15265.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15265.797218750002,"end":15267.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15268.109093750001,"end":15269.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15269.492843750002,"end":15270.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15271.298468750003,"end":15273.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15274.200968750003,"end":15275.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15276.79971875,"end":15278.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15279.094718750002,"end":15282.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15283.07721875,"end":15284.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15284.730968750002,"end":15286.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15286.97534375,"end":15287.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15288.257843750001,"end":15293.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15294.130343750003,"end":15298.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15298.99034375,"end":15301.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15299.935343750003,"end":15299.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15301.622843750003,"end":15302.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15302.078468750002,"end":15303.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15303.934718750003,"end":15306.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15306.516593750002,"end":15308.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15308.86221875,"end":15313.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15313.18221875,"end":15315.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15316.017218750003,"end":15317.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15317.67096875,"end":15320.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15320.843468750001,"end":15322.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15323.425343750001,"end":15324.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15325.41659375,"end":15326.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15327.30659375,"end":15330.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15330.63096875,"end":15333.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15333.80346875,"end":15337.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15337.954718750003,"end":15339.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15340.519718750002,"end":15343.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15344.164718750002,"end":15347.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15347.62409375,"end":15349.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15349.817843750003,"end":15353.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15353.83409375,"end":15357.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15358.019093750001,"end":15362.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15362.64284375,"end":15370.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15370.945343750001,"end":15373.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15373.594718750002,"end":15376.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15377.08784375,"end":15380.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15380.969093750002,"end":15386.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15384.614093750002,"end":15386.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15386.082218750002,"end":15386.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15386.571593750003,"end":15387.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15386.774093750002,"end":15400.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15398.654093750003,"end":15399.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15399.970343750003,"end":15400.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15401.337218750003,"end":15404.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15404.45909375,"end":15408.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15408.880343750003,"end":15410.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15411.344093750002,"end":15413.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15413.774093750002,"end":15416.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15438.37784375,"end":15443.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15443.91284375,"end":15450.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15450.88221875,"end":15452.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15453.075968750003,"end":15453.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15455.20221875,"end":15455.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15456.72096875,"end":15457.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15458.442218750002,"end":15472.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15472.617218750001,"end":15473.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15474.152843750002,"end":15478.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15479.164718750002,"end":15480.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15481.18971875,"end":15482.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15482.62409375,"end":15484.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15484.294718750003,"end":15486.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15486.57284375,"end":15489.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15490.977218750002,"end":15496.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15496.259093750003,"end":15497.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15497.659718750001,"end":15499.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15499.60034375,"end":15500.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15500.66346875,"end":15503.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15502.958468750003,"end":15506.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15504.696593750003,"end":15507.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15507.599093750003,"end":15511.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15511.61534375,"end":15513.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15513.336593750002,"end":15515.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15515.327843750001,"end":15519.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15519.445343750001,"end":15524.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15525.250343750002,"end":15528.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15529.165343750003,"end":15530.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15531.03846875,"end":15532.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15533.18159375,"end":15536.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15536.168468750002,"end":15536.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15536.94471875,"end":15541.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15541.754093750002,"end":15543.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15543.57659375,"end":15547.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15547.980968750002,"end":15552.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15552.520343750002,"end":15555.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15555.50721875,"end":15559.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15559.962218750003,"end":15565.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15565.328468750002,"end":15566.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15567.15096875,"end":15569.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15570.27284375,"end":15573.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15573.462218750003,"end":15577.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15576.95534375,"end":15577.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15577.27596875,"end":15577.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15577.32659375,"end":15578.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15579.216593750003,"end":15582.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15582.945968750002,"end":15586.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15587.046593750001,"end":15588.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15588.919718750003,"end":15595.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15595.382843750001,"end":15601.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15601.035968750002,"end":15605.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15606.300968750002,"end":15615.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15616.324718750002,"end":15619.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15620.08784375,"end":15620.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15621.35346875,"end":15622.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15622.349093750003,"end":15623.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15623.73284375,"end":15626.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15626.26409375,"end":15627.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15627.614093750002,"end":15631.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15631.529093750003,"end":15632.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15633.149093750002,"end":15641.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15641.82284375,"end":15644.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15644.67471875,"end":15646.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15646.73346875,"end":15647.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15646.88534375,"end":15649.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15649.281593750002,"end":15653.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15653.85471875,"end":15658.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15659.355968750002,"end":15662.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15662.427218750003,"end":15667.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15667.40534375,"end":15667.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15668.384093750003,"end":15668.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15668.40096875,"end":15674.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15674.492843750002,"end":15679.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15676.16346875,"end":15676.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15678.779093750003,"end":15678.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15678.863468750002,"end":15679.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15679.16721875,"end":15679.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15680.11221875,"end":15682.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15680.179718750001,"end":15680.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15682.575968750003,"end":15684.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15684.837218750003,"end":15686.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15686.980343750001,"end":15693.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15687.16596875,"end":15687.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15687.739718750003,"end":15688.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15694.101593750001,"end":15701.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15696.548468750003,"end":15696.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15698.050343750001,"end":15698.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15702.25221875,"end":15710.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15710.082218750002,"end":15711.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15710.11596875,"end":15712.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15713.22096875,"end":15718.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15718.857218750003,"end":15719.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15719.802218750003,"end":15721.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15721.219718750002,"end":15723.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15723.548468750003,"end":15727.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15727.36221875,"end":15728.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15728.72909375,"end":15733.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15733.09971875,"end":15734.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15734.90534375,"end":15742.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15742.904093750003,"end":15742.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15743.106593750003,"end":15744.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15744.169718750003,"end":15751.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15748.253468750001,"end":15748.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15751.40909375,"end":15762.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15756.640343750001,"end":15756.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15760.58909375,"end":15761.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15762.833468750003,"end":15763.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15763.035968750002,"end":15763.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15763.440968750001,"end":15764.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15764.031593750002,"end":15765.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15766.309718750003,"end":15773.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15773.380343750003,"end":15774.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15774.39284375,"end":15782.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15774.61221875,"end":15775.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15780.83909375,"end":15780.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15780.855968750002,"end":15783.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15783.117218750001,"end":15783.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15783.657218750002,"end":15787.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15786.660968750002,"end":15786.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15786.74534375,"end":15786.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15786.779093750003,"end":15787.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15788.719718750002,"end":15790.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15791.01471875,"end":15791.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15791.16659375,"end":15792.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15793.394093750001,"end":15794.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15794.980343750001,"end":15798.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15798.827843750001,"end":15801.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15802.523468750001,"end":15803.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15802.810343750003,"end":15803.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15804.14346875,"end":15804.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15805.004093750002,"end":15813.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15811.247843750003,"end":15817.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15813.42471875,"end":15814.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15817.42409375,"end":15818.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15819.17909375,"end":15821.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15822.047843750002,"end":15835.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15835.88534375,"end":15843.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15843.52971875,"end":15846.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15843.732218750003,"end":15844.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15846.314093750003,"end":15856.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15852.28784375,"end":15854.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15855.831593750001,"end":15860.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15859.527218750001,"end":15867.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15861.282218750002,"end":15862.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15865.19721875,"end":15865.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15867.69471875,"end":15869.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15867.762218750002,"end":15868.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15869.567843750003,"end":15869.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15869.58471875,"end":15870.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15872.723468750002,"end":15877.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15872.85846875,"end":15874.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15877.887218750002,"end":15881.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15882.426593750002,"end":15883.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15883.60784375,"end":15886.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15886.98284375,"end":15888.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15888.687218750001,"end":15889.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15889.63221875,"end":15890.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15891.235343750002,"end":15893.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15894.036593750003,"end":15895.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15895.622843750003,"end":15897.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15897.934718750003,"end":15899.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15900.094718750002,"end":15900.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15901.090343750002,"end":15903.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15904.566593750002,"end":15905.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15905.76471875,"end":15906.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15906.70971875,"end":15911.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15911.384093750003,"end":15911.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15911.97471875,"end":15912.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15912.34596875,"end":15912.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15912.44721875,"end":15913.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15913.56096875,"end":15915.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15915.484718750002,"end":15916.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15917.20596875,"end":15921.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15921.762218750002,"end":15926.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15923.500343750002,"end":15923.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15923.517218750003,"end":15923.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15923.550968750002,"end":15923.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15923.652218750001,"end":15924.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15925.339718750001,"end":15925.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15927.449093750001,"end":15928.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15931.12784375,"end":15932.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15949.673468750003,"end":15951.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15951.310343750003,"end":15951.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15951.732218750003,"end":15952.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15955.512218750002,"end":15956.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15956.524718750003,"end":15959.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15959.528468750003,"end":15961.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15962.17784375,"end":15965.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15965.02971875,"end":15965.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15965.60346875,"end":15967.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15968.40471875,"end":15972.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15972.859718750002,"end":15977.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15977.63534375,"end":15978.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15978.68159375,"end":15980.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15980.63909375,"end":15982.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15982.37721875,"end":15983.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15983.946593750003,"end":15991.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15992.907218750002,"end":15999.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15999.657218750002,"end":16001.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16001.294093750003,"end":16005.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16006.187843750002,"end":16008.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16008.685343750003,"end":16011.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16011.97596875,"end":16015.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16015.688468750002,"end":16017.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16017.527843750002,"end":16019.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16019.738468750002,"end":16021.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16021.628468750001,"end":16022.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16023.214718750001,"end":16024.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":16026.505343750003,"end":16027.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16026.72471875,"end":16027.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16027.028468750003,"end":16028.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16027.180343750002,"end":16027.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16029.542843750001,"end":16033.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16032.42846875,"end":16032.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16032.47909375,"end":16032.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16032.495968750001,"end":16032.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16035.668468750002,"end":16040.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16036.22534375,"end":16036.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16040.02221875,"end":16044.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16043.430968750003,"end":16045.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16045.844093750002,"end":16046.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16046.92409375,"end":16047.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16047.19409375,"end":16048.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16047.227843750003,"end":16047.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16048.544093750003,"end":16052.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16050.180968750003,"end":16050.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16052.121593750002,"end":16055.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16056.559718750003,"end":16059.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16059.664718750002,"end":16061.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16061.63909375,"end":16063.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16064.64284375,"end":16065.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16066.44846875,"end":16072.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16073.50221875,"end":16075.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16077.130343750003,"end":16078.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16077.14721875,"end":16086.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16086.310343750003,"end":16091.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16091.575343750003,"end":16103.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":16097.66721875,"end":16097.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16097.684093750002,"end":16098.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16100.519093750001,"end":16106.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16103.691593750002,"end":16104.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16105.09221875,"end":16111.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16111.622843750003,"end":16114.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16114.660343750002,"end":16125.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16125.966593750003,"end":16128.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16129.274093750002,"end":16137.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16137.441593750002,"end":16142.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16142.672843750002,"end":16146.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16146.891593750002,"end":16146.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16146.97596875,"end":16150.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16150.13159375,"end":16152.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16151.734718750002,"end":16160.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16160.610968750003,"end":16164.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16164.89721875,"end":16173.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16173.317843750003,"end":16174.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16174.735343750002,"end":16177.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16177.50284375,"end":16177.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16177.688468750002,"end":16179.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16178.44784375,"end":16183.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16183.797218750002,"end":16188.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16188.960968750001,"end":16191.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16192.386593750001,"end":16199.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16199.204093750002,"end":16205.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16205.886593750001,"end":16209.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16210.40909375,"end":16212.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16212.83909375,"end":16214.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16214.47596875,"end":16218.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16219.622843750003,"end":16224.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16224.044093750003,"end":16225.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16226.32221875,"end":16226.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16227.992843750002,"end":16229.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16229.309093750002,"end":16232.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16233.359093750001,"end":16236.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16236.160343750002,"end":16237.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16238.57346875,"end":16244.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16244.918468750002,"end":16249.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16250.26784375,"end":16255.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16255.60034375,"end":16256.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16256.81534375,"end":16265.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16265.489093750002,"end":16267.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16267.598468750002,"end":16268.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16268.273468750001,"end":16268.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16268.94846875,"end":16271.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16271.41221875,"end":16278.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16278.870968750001,"end":16282.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16281.047843750002,"end":16283.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16283.680343750002,"end":16295.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16294.446593750003,"end":16307.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16295.543468750002,"end":16295.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16308.199718750002,"end":16308.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16308.97596875,"end":16311.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16311.945968750002,"end":16312.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16312.82346875,"end":16316.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16315.13534375,"end":16325.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16319.57346875,"end":16319.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16325.26034375,"end":16325.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16325.58096875,"end":16326.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16326.62721875,"end":16327.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16327.926593750002,"end":16329.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16330.37346875,"end":16336.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16336.937843750002,"end":16338.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16339.08096875,"end":16342.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16342.72596875,"end":16344.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16345.645343750002,"end":16349.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16348.159718750001,"end":16356.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16356.867218750001,"end":16357.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16358.723468750002,"end":16360.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16360.815968750001,"end":16360.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16361.06909375,"end":16364.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16364.747843750003,"end":16367.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16367.042843750001,"end":16369.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16369.422218750002,"end":16373.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16369.489718750003,"end":16369.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16373.269718750002,"end":16377.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16377.31971875,"end":16377.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16378.04534375,"end":16379.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16379.36159375,"end":16379.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16379.395343750002,"end":16379.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16379.513468750003,"end":16380.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16380.62721875,"end":16381.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16381.352843750003,"end":16382.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16382.095343750003,"end":16382.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16383.47909375,"end":16384.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16385.217218750004,"end":16387.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16389.655343749997,"end":16391.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16391.123468750004,"end":16391.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16399.69596875,"end":16401.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16402.395968750003,"end":16403.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16407.42471875,"end":16427.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16408.319093750004,"end":16408.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16415.52471875,"end":16416.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16424.755343750003,"end":16425.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16426.223468750002,"end":16426.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16427.01659375,"end":16428.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16428.974093750003,"end":16449.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16449.426593750002,"end":16449.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16449.73034375,"end":16449.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16450.03409375,"end":16461.272843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16461.54284375,"end":16468.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16468.866593749997,"end":16470.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16470.857843750004,"end":16474.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16474.72221875,"end":16480.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16481.99534375,"end":16487.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16488.30659375,"end":16494.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16494.263468750003,"end":16497.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16495.88346875,"end":16496.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16498.24596875,"end":16500.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16501.28346875,"end":16504.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16505.029718750004,"end":16515.694718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16515.981593750003,"end":16516.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16517.31471875,"end":16521.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16521.668468750002,"end":16527.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16527.55784375,"end":16538.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16539.26909375,"end":16543.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":16540.787843750004,"end":16540.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16540.973468750002,"end":16541.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16544.41596875,"end":16550.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16551.06471875,"end":16553.342843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16553.41034375,"end":16561.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16561.358468749997,"end":16561.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16561.62846875,"end":16571.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16571.83784375,"end":16574.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16573.93034375,"end":16575.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16575.34784375,"end":16576.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16575.43221875,"end":16578.773468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16579.161593750003,"end":16584.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16584.30846875,"end":16587.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16586.535968750002,"end":16587.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16587.396593750003,"end":16591.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16587.531593749998,"end":16587.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16589.590343750002,"end":16595.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":16593.03284375,"end":16593.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16593.04971875,"end":16593.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16594.39971875,"end":16599.749093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16598.82096875,"end":16603.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16602.63471875,"end":16611.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16609.38471875,"end":16609.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16610.75159375,"end":16620.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16620.03284375,"end":16625.685968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16625.027843750002,"end":16628.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16626.023468749998,"end":16628.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16630.15784375,"end":16637.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16638.20721875,"end":16642.358468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16642.544093750003,"end":16644.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16644.754718750002,"end":16652.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16651.335968749998,"end":16651.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16652.95596875,"end":16654.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16655.04846875,"end":16661.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16661.730968750002,"end":16668.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16668.936593749997,"end":16680.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16680.81659375,"end":16685.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16686.216593750003,"end":16687.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16687.34721875,"end":16694.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16694.80596875,"end":16697.421593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16697.75909375,"end":16698.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16698.484718749998,"end":16700.273468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16700.475968749997,"end":16701.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16702.39971875,"end":16704.576593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16704.914093749998,"end":16705.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16705.926593750002,"end":16707.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16707.850343750004,"end":16707.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16707.951593750004,"end":16708.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16708.12034375,"end":16708.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16708.896593750003,"end":16710.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16711.512218750002,"end":16712.271593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16712.490968750004,"end":16718.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16718.515343749998,"end":16720.101593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16720.55721875,"end":16723.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16723.054718749998,"end":16726.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16725.70409375,"end":16731.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16731.475343750004,"end":16736.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16731.52596875,"end":16732.116593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16732.116593749997,"end":16732.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16736.92596875,"end":16737.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16738.19159375,"end":16741.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16742.49471875,"end":16744.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16745.262218750002,"end":16748.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16748.58659375,"end":16749.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16749.68346875,"end":16755.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16755.623468750004,"end":16758.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16758.475343750004,"end":16760.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16761.07409375,"end":16762.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16762.289093749998,"end":16771.553468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16765.512218750002,"end":16765.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16766.20409375,"end":16766.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16769.325968750003,"end":16769.882843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16770.94596875,"end":16779.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16772.65034375,"end":16772.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16779.248468750004,"end":16779.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16780.36221875,"end":16787.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16787.33159375,"end":16788.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16788.90096875,"end":16796.562218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16794.72284375,"end":16798.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16796.89971875,"end":16806.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16802.60346875,"end":16802.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16806.73784375,"end":16816.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16816.795343750004,"end":16817.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16817.301593750002,"end":16824.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16823.106593750003,"end":16824.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16824.591593750003,"end":16828.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16828.523468749998,"end":16832.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16833.164093749998,"end":16839.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16838.631593750004,"end":16845.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16840.77471875,"end":16842.546593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16844.554718749998,"end":16851.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16851.625343749998,"end":16855.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16855.422218749998,"end":16855.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16855.43909375,"end":16858.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16858.864718750003,"end":16868.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16861.56471875,"end":16862.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16869.327218749997,"end":16872.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16873.022843749997,"end":16875.857843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16876.02659375,"end":16876.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16876.920968749997,"end":16892.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16893.30659375,"end":16894.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16894.99409375,"end":16906.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16906.51971875,"end":16906.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16908.47721875,"end":16911.514718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16911.64971875,"end":16912.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":16921.36971875,"end":16923.225968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16923.344093749998,"end":16923.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":16928.811593749997,"end":16950.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16930.364093750002,"end":16930.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":16951.08659375,"end":16979.014718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":16979.25096875,"end":17004.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17004.88409375,"end":17010.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17010.46971875,"end":17016.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17016.62909375,"end":17018.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17018.29971875,"end":17019.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17019.85221875,"end":17024.273468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17024.442218750002,"end":17026.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17026.905968749998,"end":17029.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17029.724093750003,"end":17041.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17032.52534375,"end":17032.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17032.54221875,"end":17032.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17042.059718750003,"end":17075.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17075.33721875,"end":17076.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17077.497218750003,"end":17097.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17097.51096875,"end":17103.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17103.990968750004,"end":17108.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17109.137843750003,"end":17116.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17110.437218749998,"end":17111.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17116.950968750003,"end":17117.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17118.419093750003,"end":17124.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17124.62909375,"end":17133.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17130.11346875,"end":17130.467843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17132.475968749997,"end":17141.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17141.36909375,"end":17158.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17158.64909375,"end":17160.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17159.965343750002,"end":17160.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17160.15096875,"end":17160.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17160.16784375,"end":17209.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17209.982843750004,"end":17219.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17219.365343750003,"end":17225.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17225.187218749998,"end":17229.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17227.53284375,"end":17227.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17228.71409375,"end":17233.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17231.498468750004,"end":17233.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17233.709093750003,"end":17233.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17233.75971875,"end":17233.827218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17233.827218749997,"end":17233.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17233.96221875,"end":17234.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17234.029718750004,"end":17234.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17235.44721875,"end":17237.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17238.31596875,"end":17239.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17245.943468750003,"end":17247.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17247.88409375,"end":17247.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17247.968468749998,"end":17248.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17248.035968750002,"end":17248.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17248.052843750003,"end":17248.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17248.10346875,"end":17248.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17248.12034375,"end":17248.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17248.137218750002,"end":17248.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17252.00159375,"end":17252.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17252.187218749998,"end":17265.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17252.389718749997,"end":17252.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17266.24409375,"end":17268.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17269.585343749997,"end":17274.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17274.445343749998,"end":17277.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17277.65159375,"end":17281.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17280.82409375,"end":17282.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17282.629718750002,"end":17284.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17285.54909375,"end":17288.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17288.890343749998,"end":17289.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17290.037843750004,"end":17293.632218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17294.08784375,"end":17300.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17300.12909375,"end":17311.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17310.895343750002,"end":17310.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17310.97971875,"end":17311.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17311.334093750003,"end":17311.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17311.62096875,"end":17311.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17311.975343750004,"end":17315.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17315.19846875,"end":17317.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17318.303468750004,"end":17323.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17324.34471875,"end":17324.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17324.969093749998,"end":17327.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17328.124718749998,"end":17334.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17334.756593750004,"end":17339.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17337.74346875,"end":17340.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17340.40971875,"end":17344.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17343.396593750003,"end":17346.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17346.366593749997,"end":17349.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17349.960968749998,"end":17349.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17349.97784375,"end":17362.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17361.638468750003,"end":17363.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17364.03471875,"end":17371.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17371.780343749997,"end":17377.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17377.83846875,"end":17383.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17383.356593750003,"end":17385.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17385.887843750003,"end":17390.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17390.15721875,"end":17392.874093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17393.00909375,"end":17398.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17398.054718749998,"end":17400.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17400.434093750002,"end":17408.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17408.871593750002,"end":17409.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17410.08659375,"end":17412.702218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17413.05659375,"end":17417.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17417.68034375,"end":17424.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17424.059093750002,"end":17431.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17431.39971875,"end":17432.327843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17432.327843749998,"end":17434.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17433.74534375,"end":17436.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17435.449718750002,"end":17438.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17438.70659375,"end":17441.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17441.254718750002,"end":17441.271593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17441.271593750003,"end":17451.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17441.288468749997,"end":17442.233468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17451.278468750003,"end":17455.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17456.20596875,"end":17458.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17459.05784375,"end":17459.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17460.036593750003,"end":17460.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17461.082843750002,"end":17464.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17465.031593749998,"end":17475.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17470.279718750004,"end":17472.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17474.43096875,"end":17474.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17475.359093749998,"end":17482.632218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17482.851593749998,"end":17487.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17487.64409375,"end":17488.335968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17488.77471875,"end":17492.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17493.162218750003,"end":17496.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17497.12784375,"end":17501.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17501.734718749998,"end":17502.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17502.91596875,"end":17505.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17505.68346875,"end":17509.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17509.395968750003,"end":17511.420968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17511.707843750002,"end":17514.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17514.93096875,"end":17515.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17516.061593749997,"end":17518.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17518.50846875,"end":17521.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17521.512218750002,"end":17523.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17524.161593750003,"end":17533.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17534.084093750003,"end":17537.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17537.965343750002,"end":17538.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17539.163468749997,"end":17539.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17539.92284375,"end":17547.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17546.976593749998,"end":17552.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17551.380968750003,"end":17561.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17561.421593749998,"end":17571.529718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17571.209093750003,"end":17571.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17571.58034375,"end":17571.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17571.630968750003,"end":17575.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17575.25909375,"end":17584.523468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17584.47284375,"end":17588.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17588.927843750003,"end":17592.218468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17592.218468749998,"end":17608.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17592.23534375,"end":17592.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17592.606593750003,"end":17593.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17599.00221875,"end":17599.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17608.19909375,"end":17608.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17608.30034375,"end":17608.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":17608.840343750002,"end":17613.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17609.22846875,"end":17609.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17611.57409375,"end":17612.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17614.00409375,"end":17615.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17615.725343750004,"end":17618.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17629.03971875,"end":17638.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17633.309093750002,"end":17633.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17634.76034375,"end":17636.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17638.607843750004,"end":17639.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17639.535968750002,"end":17640.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17640.54846875,"end":17640.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17640.56534375,"end":17640.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17640.58221875,"end":17640.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17640.64971875,"end":17641.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17642.01659375,"end":17643.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17644.311593749997,"end":17645.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17645.779718750004,"end":17653.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17654.35221875,"end":17656.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17656.57971875,"end":17659.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17660.15721875,"end":17661.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17661.186593749997,"end":17664.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17665.64159375,"end":17666.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17667.58221875,"end":17671.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17672.07096875,"end":17675.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17675.98596875,"end":17677.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17677.38659375,"end":17678.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17679.14159375,"end":17680.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17681.757218749997,"end":17683.866593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17684.72721875,"end":17688.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17687.68034375,"end":17692.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17693.350343750004,"end":17697.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17697.61971875,"end":17700.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17701.11284375,"end":17710.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17701.43346875,"end":17702.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17709.584093750003,"end":17712.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17712.132218749997,"end":17717.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17717.700968750003,"end":17721.092843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17721.936593749997,"end":17723.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17724.18096875,"end":17725.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17726.30721875,"end":17727.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17727.505343750003,"end":17728.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17729.37846875,"end":17729.952218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17730.96471875,"end":17733.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17734.812218749998,"end":17736.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17737.37721875,"end":17744.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17744.66721875,"end":17747.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17747.50221875,"end":17749.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17749.84784375,"end":17752.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17753.442218750002,"end":17757.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17757.93096875,"end":17761.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17762.976593749998,"end":17764.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17766.80721875,"end":17772.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17772.966593750003,"end":17772.983468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17773.185968750004,"end":17775.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17776.476593749998,"end":17781.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17781.927218750003,"end":17782.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17784.54284375,"end":17785.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17785.55534375,"end":17790.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17791.090343750002,"end":17791.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17792.23784375,"end":17795.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17795.427218750003,"end":17798.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17798.819093750004,"end":17800.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17801.06346875,"end":17806.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17807.695343749998,"end":17810.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17810.90159375,"end":17811.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17813.078468749998,"end":17815.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17815.62659375,"end":17816.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17817.162218750003,"end":17818.866593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17818.967843749997,"end":17820.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17820.216593750003,"end":17822.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17822.325968750003,"end":17824.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17825.34659375,"end":17831.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17832.045968749997,"end":17833.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17834.72909375,"end":17836.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17836.51784375,"end":17837.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17838.239093750002,"end":17841.225968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17841.58034375,"end":17843.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17843.740343750003,"end":17845.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17845.140968749998,"end":17845.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17845.967843749997,"end":17852.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17852.53221875,"end":17855.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17855.48534375,"end":17856.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17857.00409375,"end":17861.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17862.06659375,"end":17864.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17864.530343749997,"end":17868.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17868.512843750003,"end":17871.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17871.53346875,"end":17873.271593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17873.676593750002,"end":17874.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17875.178468750004,"end":17876.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17876.444093750004,"end":17877.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17877.625343749998,"end":17879.616593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17879.75159375,"end":17882.687843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17880.747218750003,"end":17881.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17882.552843750003,"end":17886.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17887.429718749998,"end":17889.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17888.999093749997,"end":17891.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17891.37846875,"end":17892.914093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17893.184093750002,"end":17894.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17894.53409375,"end":17896.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17897.25096875,"end":17897.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17898.51659375,"end":17899.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17900.23784375,"end":17902.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17902.279718750004,"end":17917.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17917.686593749997,"end":17924.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17924.38596875,"end":17928.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17928.90846875,"end":17933.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17933.53221875,"end":17942.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17942.594093749998,"end":17947.859093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17948.483468749997,"end":17951.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17951.18346875,"end":17952.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17952.465968750003,"end":17957.545343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17957.545343750004,"end":17961.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17961.645968750003,"end":17964.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17964.835343749997,"end":17967.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17968.26096875,"end":17969.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17970.319718749997,"end":17972.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17972.44596875,"end":17979.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17979.19596875,"end":17984.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17979.364718750003,"end":17979.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17984.950343750003,"end":17989.405343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17989.523468749998,"end":17991.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17990.451593750004,"end":17992.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17993.13471875,"end":17996.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17996.172218749998,"end":17997.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17997.89346875,"end":17998.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17998.652843750002,"end":18002.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17998.787843750004,"end":17998.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18003.04034375,"end":18003.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18003.07409375,"end":18004.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18003.192218750002,"end":18003.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18004.96409375,"end":18006.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18007.46159375,"end":18008.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18009.435968750004,"end":18012.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18012.473468750002,"end":18013.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18014.21159375,"end":18016.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18016.75971875,"end":18018.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18018.22784375,"end":18018.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18018.78471875,"end":18020.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18020.927843750003,"end":18023.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18023.357843750004,"end":18027.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18027.897218750004,"end":18032.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18032.77409375,"end":18033.280343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18033.97221875,"end":18039.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18039.13596875,"end":18044.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18042.29159375,"end":18043.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18043.928468750004,"end":18050.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18050.93159375,"end":18051.842843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18053.05784375,"end":18058.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18055.57221875,"end":18061.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18062.01846875,"end":18062.828468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18063.773468749998,"end":18064.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18064.31346875,"end":18064.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18065.49471875,"end":18070.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18070.827218749997,"end":18077.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18077.594093749998,"end":18080.327843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18081.28971875,"end":18086.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18087.077843749998,"end":18090.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18090.72284375,"end":18091.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18091.499093749997,"end":18092.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18093.186593749997,"end":18096.780968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18096.780968749998,"end":18098.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18099.194093750004,"end":18099.936593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18099.98721875,"end":18100.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18101.43846875,"end":18103.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18103.96971875,"end":18110.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18110.804093749997,"end":18116.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18116.490968750004,"end":18117.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18117.756593750004,"end":18121.131593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18121.874093749997,"end":18124.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18125.535968750002,"end":18129.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18130.26096875,"end":18131.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18131.61096875,"end":18135.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18136.99409375,"end":18138.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18138.445343749998,"end":18138.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18138.512843750003,"end":18138.529718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18138.529718750004,"end":18139.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18139.30596875,"end":18139.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18139.980968750002,"end":18143.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18143.592218750004,"end":18150.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18151.75971875,"end":18151.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18151.945343749998,"end":18152.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18152.012843750003,"end":18152.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18152.70471875,"end":18156.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18157.176593750002,"end":18158.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18158.91471875,"end":18163.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18165.327218749997,"end":18168.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18168.702218749997,"end":18170.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18170.490968750004,"end":18171.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18172.75221875,"end":18174.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18174.35534375,"end":18176.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18176.920343750004,"end":18177.578468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18180.04221875,"end":18180.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18183.11346875,"end":18184.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18184.48034375,"end":18200.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18200.89971875,"end":18203.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18203.481593750003,"end":18209.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18209.624093749997,"end":18215.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18215.58096875,"end":18221.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18221.28471875,"end":18223.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18222.01034375,"end":18240.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18240.91034375,"end":18242.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18240.99471875,"end":18241.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18242.074718750002,"end":18242.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18242.17596875,"end":18245.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18244.859093749998,"end":18245.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18245.63534375,"end":18245.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18246.327218749997,"end":18246.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18247.82909375,"end":18252.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18252.672218749998,"end":18255.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18256.215968750003,"end":18257.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18258.747218750003,"end":18259.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18259.793468750002,"end":18261.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18261.700343750003,"end":18263.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18263.708468750003,"end":18265.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18265.44659375,"end":18269.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18270.18846875,"end":18280.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18280.684718750003,"end":18283.131593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18283.90784375,"end":18286.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18287.80596875,"end":18289.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18290.03346875,"end":18297.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18296.817218750002,"end":18305.828468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18305.94659375,"end":18309.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18310.50284375,"end":18310.755968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18311.75159375,"end":18312.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18313.57409375,"end":18316.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18316.91534375,"end":18319.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18319.34534375,"end":18320.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18320.796593749998,"end":18322.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18323.15909375,"end":18325.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18325.15034375,"end":18329.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18327.90096875,"end":18331.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18332.406593749998,"end":18332.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18332.474093750003,"end":18332.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18332.54159375,"end":18339.156593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18332.811593749997,"end":18333.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18339.426593750002,"end":18340.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18341.637218750002,"end":18342.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18341.772218750004,"end":18357.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18355.491593749997,"end":18356.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18357.02721875,"end":18365.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18364.18221875,"end":18375.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18367.067843750003,"end":18369.413468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18375.33659375,"end":18383.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18379.58909375,"end":18389.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18386.94659375,"end":18387.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18388.83659375,"end":18390.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18389.69721875,"end":18390.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18391.418468750002,"end":18393.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18391.570343749998,"end":18391.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18394.725968749997,"end":18396.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18394.77659375,"end":18395.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18396.379718750002,"end":18398.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18398.47221875,"end":18403.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18401.999093749997,"end":18402.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18403.19721875,"end":18408.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18408.867218749998,"end":18409.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18409.812218749998,"end":18410.757218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18410.959718750004,"end":18414.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18414.89159375,"end":18416.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18417.45659375,"end":18427.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18421.99596875,"end":18422.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18427.24409375,"end":18428.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18427.750343749998,"end":18428.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18429.420968749997,"end":18430.467218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18430.75409375,"end":18432.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18433.656593749998,"end":18437.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18437.80784375,"end":18439.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18438.668468750002,"end":18441.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18439.71471875,"end":18446.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18446.835968749998,"end":18447.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18447.257843749998,"end":18449.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18449.535968750002,"end":18451.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18451.51034375,"end":18458.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18459.30659375,"end":18464.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18464.959718750004,"end":18468.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18469.21221875,"end":18470.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18471.169718750003,"end":18473.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18472.772843749997,"end":18477.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18476.552843750003,"end":18478.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18478.746593750002,"end":18483.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18483.842843749997,"end":18486.053468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18485.76659375,"end":18488.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18488.95596875,"end":18488.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18488.97284375,"end":18489.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18489.090968750003,"end":18489.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18489.715343750002,"end":18491.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18491.537843750004,"end":18496.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18510.809093750002,"end":18511.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18511.973468750002,"end":18512.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18512.496593750002,"end":18513.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18513.74534375,"end":18513.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18513.998468750004,"end":18514.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18515.466593750003,"end":18516.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18516.867218749998,"end":18516.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18517.82909375,"end":18518.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18518.60534375,"end":18519.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18519.61784375,"end":18519.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18521.288468749997,"end":18521.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18522.60471875,"end":18523.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18523.33034375,"end":18534.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18534.585968749998,"end":18537.640343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18537.927218750003,"end":18538.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18538.568468750003,"end":18538.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18538.60221875,"end":18540.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18540.576593750004,"end":18548.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18547.664093749998,"end":18550.380968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18550.380968750003,"end":18555.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18556.169093750003,"end":18557.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18557.654093750003,"end":18561.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18560.87721875,"end":18565.146593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18565.163468749997,"end":18565.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18565.21409375,"end":18565.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18565.43346875,"end":18567.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18565.450343750003,"end":18565.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18567.64409375,"end":18569.280968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18569.871593750002,"end":18571.592843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18571.42409375,"end":18571.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18572.28471875,"end":18584.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18584.18159375,"end":18588.045968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18587.05034375,"end":18587.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18588.21471875,"end":18588.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18588.265343749998,"end":18592.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18593.59784375,"end":18601.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18602.42346875,"end":18613.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18613.52721875,"end":18616.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18616.12596875,"end":18621.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18621.84659375,"end":18625.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18624.04034375,"end":18624.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18625.035968750002,"end":18627.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18627.820343749998,"end":18635.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18634.215968750003,"end":18634.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18634.48596875,"end":18634.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18636.61221875,"end":18638.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18638.974718750003,"end":18639.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18639.00846875,"end":18639.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18639.02534375,"end":18639.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18639.04221875,"end":18639.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18639.497843750003,"end":18639.531593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18639.531593749998,"end":18648.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18647.294093750003,"end":18655.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18651.124718749998,"end":18651.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18656.389718749997,"end":18666.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18665.451593750004,"end":18666.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18666.700343750003,"end":18674.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18666.717218750004,"end":18667.358468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18674.327843749998,"end":18679.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18679.96409375,"end":18687.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18684.80721875,"end":18685.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18687.03471875,"end":18687.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18687.77721875,"end":18687.810968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18687.810968750004,"end":18687.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18687.86159375,"end":18696.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18688.114718750003,"end":18688.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18696.552218750003,"end":18698.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18698.965343750002,"end":18703.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18704.027843750002,"end":18707.014718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18707.402843750002,"end":18713.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18713.967218750004,"end":18717.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18717.764093750004,"end":18720.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18720.43034375,"end":18727.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18727.905968749998,"end":18728.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18729.22221875,"end":18731.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18732.006593750004,"end":18736.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18735.482843750004,"end":18739.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18736.90034375,"end":18737.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18739.95471875,"end":18753.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18752.30721875,"end":18753.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18753.707843750002,"end":18753.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18753.724718750003,"end":18754.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18753.97784375,"end":18754.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18754.669718750003,"end":18754.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18754.804718749998,"end":18754.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18754.93971875,"end":18754.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18754.973468750002,"end":18755.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18755.02409375,"end":18755.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18755.04096875,"end":18755.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18755.074718750002,"end":18755.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18755.34471875,"end":18759.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18757.319093750004,"end":18766.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18767.022218750004,"end":18771.882218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18772.23659375,"end":18776.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18776.96159375,"end":18778.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18778.56471875,"end":18778.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18778.598468750002,"end":18778.615343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18779.054093749997,"end":18779.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18779.08784375,"end":18783.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18783.18846875,"end":18788.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18788.68971875,"end":18792.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18792.317843750003,"end":18795.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18795.996593750002,"end":18800.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18801.194093750004,"end":18802.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18801.64971875,"end":18809.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18803.87721875,"end":18804.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18809.80034375,"end":18809.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18809.817218750002,"end":18809.850968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18810.137843750003,"end":18810.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18810.154718750004,"end":18816.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18816.31409375,"end":18820.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18820.887218750002,"end":18821.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18822.43971875,"end":18826.000343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18826.05096875,"end":18829.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18829.037843750004,"end":18829.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18830.286593750003,"end":18832.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18833.08784375,"end":18843.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18844.05659375,"end":18846.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18846.80721875,"end":18859.632218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18859.34534375,"end":18865.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18860.32409375,"end":18860.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18864.795968750004,"end":18864.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18864.86346875,"end":18864.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":18864.998468750004,"end":18865.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18866.669093750003,"end":18868.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18868.66034375,"end":18871.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18871.61346875,"end":18878.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18878.582843750002,"end":18880.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18880.489718750003,"end":18886.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18886.817843750003,"end":18890.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18891.340343750002,"end":18891.694718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18892.605968750002,"end":18893.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18893.55096875,"end":18896.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18897.246593750002,"end":18897.803468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18898.225343750004,"end":18901.178468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18901.54971875,"end":18908.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18908.29971875,"end":18913.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18913.96971875,"end":18916.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18917.395343750002,"end":18918.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18918.981593750003,"end":18919.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18920.348468750002,"end":18926.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":18926.828468749998,"end":18928.98846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":131.966,"end":135.157,"text":"本集完"},{"start":1805.342,"end":1818.708,"text":"好我們謝謝各位媒體朋友我們現在開始開會了來請主秘報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數這個請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1835.765,"end":1859.281,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議．事由．時間中華民國113年10月21日星期一9時4分至17時45分．地點清仙樓酒樓大禮堂．出席委員林德福等14人．列席委員鍾嘉斌等22人．列席官員財政部政務次長阮清華．行政院主席總處主席長陳淑芝等．主席陳昭基委員喻貞．報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄"},{"start":1863.246,"end":1889.503,"text":"決定一事如確定討論事項一繼續審查財政收支劃分法二十案一本院臺灣民眾黨黨團拟據財政收支劃分法修正草案案二本院國民黨黨團委員羅明財等二十三人委員林思明等二十人委員徐宇貞等十六人委員洪孟凱等二十二人委員丁學中等十七人分別拟據財政收支劃分法部分條件修正草案等六案三本院委員吳立華等十七人拟據財政收支劃分法第三條條件修正草案案"},{"start":1890.323,"end":1917.001,"text":"本院委員陳玉珍等24人拟據財政收支劃分法第8條條文修正草案案本院委員黃建豪等21人拟據財政收支劃分法第8條及第12條條文修正草案案本院委員王洪威等24人拟據財政收支劃分法第8條、第12條及第30條條文修正草案案本院委員陳超明等17人委員邱振軍等19人分別拟據財政收支劃分法第8條、第12條及第16條之一條文修正草案等2案"},{"start":1918.739,"end":1934.747,"text":"8.本院委員賴瑞榮等16人、委員蔡宜等16人分別擬據《財政收支劃分法》第16條之一條因修正草案等二案9.本院委員賴瑞榮等、賴世保等29人擬據《財政收支劃分法》第16條之二、第37條之二、第38條之二條因修正草案"},{"start":1935.687,"end":1953.861,"text":"本院委員賴世保等22人拟據財政收支劃分法第38條之一條文修正草案案本院委員張家俊等27人拟據財政收支劃分法第4條、第8條及第12條條文修正草案案本院委員楊瓊英等32人拟據財政收支劃分法第8條及第37條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1955.402,"end":1979.069,"text":"13.本院委員鄭天才等18人擬拒財政收支劃分法徵定第30條之一及第30條之二條文修正草案案2.審查財政收支劃分法兩案1.本院委員羅廷偉等19人擬拒財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案案2.本院委員鄭錢等21人擬拒財政收支劃分法第8條條文修正草案案案委員蔡易瑜等18人進行程序發言或會議詢問"},{"start":1980.709,"end":1992.034,"text":"全案廣泛討論．由委員林德福等人發言．均經財政部政務次長阮清華．行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝等予以答覆．決議．令擇期繼續審查．三會宣讀完畢請議事人員宣讀今日的議程"},{"start":2009.366,"end":2024.111,"text":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．宣傳筆"},{"start":2029.622,"end":2054.692,"text":"好 這個推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心是我們賴總統的政策我們看到今晚會我們彭主委上來以來有很積極的在推動所以我們今天本委會特別安排這一次的專案報告希望各個部會一起來同心協力一起來讓臺灣早日成為亞洲資產管理中心那我們先介紹今天出席的委員跟官員們首先是吳秉瑞委員謝謝我們林德福委員"},{"start":2060.852,"end":2073.943,"text":"我們兩位資深委員都非常認真,永遠都是最早到的那接著我們介紹今天這個出席及列席的官員我們金管會彭金隆主委金管會綜合規劃處的胡哲華處長"},{"start":2078.274,"end":2103.596,"text":"我們金管會銀行局的莊秀元局長局長早我們證券期貨局的張振山局長早保險局的王立慧局長早我們檢察局的童振章局長早我們臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司的林修銘董事長李愛玲總經理"},{"start":2107.757,"end":2119.881,"text":"臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司林秉輝董事長陳德湘總經理財團法人中華民國證券櫃台買賣中心的簡立中董事長陳立青總經理"},{"start":2129.588,"end":2155.737,"text":"然後我們財政部李慶華政次財政部推動促參司的童韋碩副司長國庫署的馬曉慧副署長負稅署的宋秀玲署長認真天天報道這個公務署的蘇淑貞副署長"},{"start":2159.063,"end":2174.936,"text":"國產署的王采業副署長財政資訊中心的謝明峰副主任我們今天央行的嚴中大副總裁外匯局的蔡炯明局長國家發展會、國發會的詹芳冠副主委產業發展處的陳瓊華副處長"},{"start":2187.644,"end":2198.353,"text":"經濟部政務次長何進昌、經濟部中小及新創企業署李冠志、經濟部產業發展署陳國軒、交通部行政司韓振華、"},{"start":2208.351,"end":2234.962,"text":"臺灣港務股份有限公司高雄豐公司就是港務公司的高雄豐公司的港務長孫偉炫好那我們今天這個議程安排有很多單位都提供了這個書面的報告那我們請幾個單位做進行專案報告那沒有邀請到單位就請各委員自行參閱這個書面報告"},{"start":2236.892,"end":2251.574,"text":"那我們請金管會、國發會還有經濟部做專題的報告那時間3到5分鐘斟酌那金管會可能需要久一點的話就自行斟酌好現在我們先請金管會我們彭主委進行專題報告"},{"start":2257.526,"end":2272.592,"text":"主席、各位委員、在場的媒體朋友、大家早安。承蒙大院貴文會今天邀請就政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心具體作為及如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況及未來發展進行專題報告、進行質詢。為推動臺灣金融與經濟發展發揮臺灣優勢"},{"start":2281.535,"end":2309.537,"text":"計畫打造以流財為主引資為輔投資臺灣支持產業發展具有臺灣特色之資產管理中心金管會已於9月10號正式對外發布金管會主政的五大重點計畫並在五大計畫下陸續推動16項策略以下檢要重點報告一、壯大資產管理計畫一、壯大本國資產管理業透過鬆綁法令引導國內資金投入本國資產管理事業以快速增加本國"},{"start":2310.302,"end":2334.116,"text":"投信規模藉由規模之擴大增強經營管理能力提升工作條件提高國際能見度達到吸引專業人才及海外市場發展之能力二吸引外國資產管理業之投資透過政策誘因引導已在本國投資之外國資產管理業加大對臺灣之投資並積極引進國外資產管理業者來臺設立營運據點以吸引更多投資臺灣之資金與機會"},{"start":2341.048,"end":2365.187,"text":"建制具有地方特色資產管理專區藉經國外推動資產管理中心經驗預計與高雄市共同規劃推動資產管理專區建制具體規劃的做法是由地方政府提供行政誘因如營運場地、租金優惠、費用補貼、行政協助等並由金管會鼓勵國內金融業者進駐專區"},{"start":2366.848,"end":2391.066,"text":"設置OBU以及私人銀行實體業務據點並整合家族辦公室業務OIU、OSU及結合境外分行同時引入資產管理、財富管理專業之會計事務所、律師事務所等形成境內外資產管理專業生態聚落提供國人境內外資產管理一站式服務打造具有地方特色之國際資產管理專區"},{"start":2393.307,"end":2410.504,"text":"普惠永續融合計畫推動TESA計畫及全民資產管理教育參考國外推動個人儲蓄投資專戶成功之經驗成功促進資本市場發展以及提升國民資產管理之能力在符合臺灣現行租稅條件及國人投資習慣之下"},{"start":2411.67,"end":2438.204,"text":"推動具臺灣特色之個人投資帳戶以落實普惠國人並增進國人資產管理能力之目標未來將採公司協力推動由金管會協調及保協助民眾建立專戶管理在一定額度內由參與計畫之資產管理業者讓利設計經理費及手續費優惠之方案吸引國人開立帳戶在該帳戶投資之收益分配"},{"start":2438.82,"end":2453.785,"text":"鼓勵所得得依稅法的規定享受鼓勵收入8.5%的計算可抵稅額以及採28稅率分開計稅令依所得稅法第14條之一之規定特定金融商品可按10%稅率分離科稅"},{"start":2456.345,"end":2475.199,"text":"透過上述機制與稅務誘因希望協助國人建構長期投資帳戶未來亦可視TISA實際績效在與相關部會延伸租稅與其他誘因以增加TISA之參與力提升大眾資產管理之意識與能力二、永續綠色金融商品的推動節制"},{"start":2476.84,"end":2493.727,"text":"9月底我國永續發展債券共計227檔發行總額超過6000億元未來將持續增加永續債券商品提供資產管理中心更多元投資標的藉此資產管理中心計劃是推動同步推動我國永續淨零值目標"},{"start":2496.208,"end":2508.096,"text":"資產管理人才之培訓將結合政大及中山兩所大學國際金融學院及金融研訓院等訓練機構訓練具有私人銀行、財富管理與國際資產管理等關鍵核心職能之人才"},{"start":2509.934,"end":2536.452,"text":"3財富管理促進計畫加速推動私人銀行業務我國自109年開放12家銀行開辦私人銀行業務以來對於協助留住本國財富及增進本國財富管理能量效果顯著目前正透過放寬銀行辦理高資產客戶業務之申辦條件鼓勵本國銀行申辦私人銀行業務增加市場參與者吸引國內外高資產法人自然客戶"},{"start":2537.253,"end":2553.483,"text":"以促進高階財富管理市場之發展．推動家族辦公室功能．配合私人銀行推動．進一步輔導客戶創設家族辦公室．協助提供多元資產管理服務．未來並可視發展狀況．提供家族辦公室投資政府重點產業之各項實質誘因．"},{"start":2556.263,"end":2572.271,"text":"3、增進OBU功能深化財富管理業務鼓勵OBU深辦辦理資產管理業務透過OBU條例第4條之規定函式使OBU成為具有海外資產管理功能之境外資產管理分行OAMU4、資金投入公建計畫"},{"start":2575.116,"end":2600.559,"text":"為協助國內公共建設相關金融商品的發展金管會已請政交所及櫃買中心組建公建證券化專案團隊邀集具證券資產化專業之律師、會計師等與專家組成將協助政府部門針對具商品化特性之公共建設項目進行評估與規劃輔導協助政府發行相關投資標的供全民及保險業投資"},{"start":2603.187,"end":2627.645,"text":"推動公建與高齡社會投資將持續鼓勵保險業投資高齡社會銀髮產業等促進社會福利之標的配合策略性投資之項目金管會將持續推動鼓勵保險業辦理六大核心戰略產業公共投資長照及永續發展債券方案並研修相關法令開放保險業投融資五大信賴產業基研定相關獎勵措施"},{"start":2630.119,"end":2651.449,"text":"5.擴大投資臺灣計劃﹐REITs推動專案目前大院審查中資投信投顧法部分條文修正案如通過後將開放REITs採基金架構發行將有助於市場開發更多元投資工具未來將輔導業者在立法通過後積極發行基金架構REITs提供更多元的資產管理工具促進資產管理市場之發展2."},{"start":2651.449,"end":2651.709,"text":"擴大投資創投及新創"},{"start":2656.398,"end":2673.15,"text":"為建構及支持創投及私募基金發展之環境將放寬證券商及投信事業轉投資或受託管理PVVC Fund之銷售管道修正保險業於一定額度內投資創投事業得適用較低之風險係數以扶植國內相關產業之發展"},{"start":2676.693,"end":2694.047,"text":"三、壯大資本市場計畫正確交易所及櫃買中心已開始推動壯大資本市場價值計畫重點包括鼓勵上市會公司揭露提升企業價值推動投資人關係義和平台鼓勵企業增加"},{"start":2695.188,"end":2709.148,"text":"說明會、跨部會合作推動綠能等核心產業上市櫃藉由壯大資本市場價值推動新興產業上市櫃兩大方向創造更友善、更開放、更具競爭力的資本市場"},{"start":2710.87,"end":2723.657,"text":"資本市場國際合作將優先推動臺日跨境ETF相互掛牌提供投資人更多元的商品選擇亦將推動亞洲鄰近市場交易所合作督導交易所參與國際組織洽簽LMU等尋求國際的合作"},{"start":2728.547,"end":2750.361,"text":"二、如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況及未來發展為協助金融科技及新創業者籌得充足持續多元的資金今晚會109年發布資本市場藍圖開設創新版及創櫃版支持新經濟公司未來將透過以下各項的面向推動及輔助金融科技及新創業發展"},{"start":2751.448,"end":2761.978,"text":"一、建構新創事業投資平台,開設上市臺灣創新版,提供創新事業提早進入資本市場籌資發展。二、積極協助中小微創業事業,推出免費輔導股權籌資兩大功能之創櫃版,各鎮督導櫃買中心,調整創櫃版相關機制,擴大輔導對象,以扶植更多創新事業成長茁壯。"},{"start":2775.371,"end":2798.707,"text":"2、吸引國際優質新創來臺掛牌交易,持續精進臺灣創新版,吸引更多創業投資掛牌及市場交易能量。3、調整金融業創投監管做法,未來針對金控公司或金融機構轉投資之創業投資事業子公司之管理,將採取與金融相關子公司區別之差異化管理,讓該等創投擁有更彈性的營運空間。"},{"start":2800.049,"end":2823.499,"text":"二、促進金融科技發展策略一、擴大容塑空間加大創新領域大幅放寬營保證業務事辦加大創新實驗的範圍金管會近日已經發布金融業申請業務事辦作業要點的修正大幅開放金融業者可進行業務事辦的範圍希望鼓勵國內業者結合金融科技業共同合作事辦"},{"start":2824.591,"end":2840.881,"text":"再來我們也即將研究調整堅尼沙盒制度的落地層攻擊制希望能夠與未來的商品服務做對接二鼓勵團隊合作注入集團創新動能為鼓勵金融生態系的成立金管會已於今年10月4號"},{"start":2841.826,"end":2856.441,"text":"放寬金融機構將金融科技專利及技術授權他人的規定然後促進金融機構與金融科技的合作未來將研議成立金融科技產業聯盟導引金融機構與金融科技業者共同提升金融科技擴大相關應用"},{"start":2857.441,"end":2884.57,"text":"三、我們也持續探索金融科技發展的機會助力金融科技的發展一、我們要推動未來現實世界資產RWA代幣化的工作二、我們要開放金融業辦理虛擬資產保管業務三、明年6月金管會將提出VASP專法送行政院再送大院審議四、我們將持續支持網路金融發展放寬純網營業務的線下活動限制"},{"start":2887.318,"end":2913.173,"text":"我們今年年底也會重啟數位保險公司申請之條件預計這個規劃方案會在年底能夠提出希望提供民眾更多元的選擇落實普惠金融我們也全方位引領金融科技的發展我們在114年將增設金融市場發展創新處強化金融科技發展未來將持續鼓勵金融業運用新科技實現更具包容性、公平性、永續性的金融科技生態環境"},{"start":2914.912,"end":2929.068,"text":"金管會透過五大計畫、十六項計畫以及下一階段與各部會的通力合作持續推動打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心期盼在流財為主、引資為輔、投資臺灣支持產業發展兩大方向引導國內資金投入臺灣"},{"start":2934.206,"end":2934.506,"text":"謝謝彭主委"},{"start":2961.482,"end":2979.835,"text":"接著我們請國發會張副主委進行專題報告主席、各位委員今天很榮幸邀到貴委員會來報告"},{"start":2981.069,"end":2997.236,"text":"有關於政府推動亞洲資產管理中心及對新創產業募資的情形有關於推動創新創業的發展是近年來政府施政的非常重要的一個方向目前統計臺灣的新創事業已經超過7800家"},{"start":3001.798,"end":3019.693,"text":"那去年的新創募資金額也達到27.9億美元這兩個都是歷史新高那賴總統也在政見中提出4年內要達到新台幣1500億元的新創投資金額的這樣子的一個政見"},{"start":3020.794,"end":3039.018,"text":"那目前政府在協助新創事業的募資現階段主要是透過投融資以及多元出廠的管道來協助新創取得資金例如國發基金他匡列了50億元的創業天使投資方案那到今年10月18號我們已經投資了274家新創一共38.02億元也帶動了投資148點"},{"start":3048.343,"end":3058.88,"text":"經濟部跟今晚會有相應的投融資跟出場的措施那有關於活絡投資生態系的經濟策略那主要的策略有下面幾點"},{"start":3060.117,"end":3089.618,"text":"第一我們要積極推動的主題式投資那國發基金將會跟相關部會合作一起推動百億元的主題式投資專案例如AI、文創、大健康還有綠色成長等等那將來如果有今晚會如果有金融科技相關的投資的規劃那國發基金當然也可以評估來共同參與那第二是鼓勵企業及金融機構來擴大投資那政府將串聯企業創投等資源"},{"start":3090.168,"end":3118.55,"text":"鼓勵企業及金融機構擴大來投資新創的產業並將積極推動保險業等資金來投資新創第三是要建立校園的投資生態系為了要擴大我們優質的新創案源國發基金將積極跟國內各大學合作建立校園的投資生態系舉個例子例如臺灣大學最近將成立校友基金國發基金將會搭配來投資"},{"start":3119.807,"end":3133.79,"text":"第4點是要擴大天使及有限合夥創投租稅誘因這點經濟部正在修正產創條例將會對於有限合夥以及天使投資人更放寬有關於租稅減免的相關規定"},{"start":3135.373,"end":3155.867,"text":"第五是要加強鏈結國際資金目前政府已經在積極與美國、中東歐和日本的國際資金進行合作例如,國發基金已經投資日本Core Japan Fund同時近期也跟京都大學簽訂共同投資的合作備忘錄"},{"start":3157.066,"end":3181.984,"text":"第6點是推動橋樑計畫來擴大新創的國際資源國發會9月份已經在日本東京設立海外首個新創基地明年也預計在矽谷設立新創基地透過這些基地可以強化雙向的新創及創投的落地媒合與交流不僅可以協助國內的新創佈局海外市場同時也可以吸引國際的新創來臺灣發展甚至掛牌"},{"start":3184.406,"end":3203.462,"text":"那最後說明面對數位轉型、淨零轉型以及社會轉型等發展趨勢新創會扮演非常重要的推進的角色那期盼經過各界的通力合作讓國內的新創事業能夠進一步的壯大以上報告進行指教謝謝詹副主委接著我們請經濟部和次長"},{"start":3217.114,"end":3237.739,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好。陳孟貴委員會邀請就新創產業籌資現況及未來發展的主題進行報告,敬請各位委員先進不吝指教。臺灣的新創生態系在政府跟民間的攜手合作之下,持續蓬勃發展,成為推動經濟轉型與創新驅動的重要力量。"},{"start":3238.539,"end":3265.422,"text":"那目前臺灣的新創企業約有7900家那這些新創企業在推動臺灣的數位轉型跟產業升級中扮演關鍵的角色那資金始終是新創企業發展過程中不可欠缺的一環那以下本部將就新創產業的籌資現況還有未來精進措施進行說明那在新創產業籌資的現況方面先就投資面來跟大家做報告"},{"start":3266.403,"end":3273.288,"text":"根據FIDI的資料顯示從104年到113年第一季臺灣新創早期投資的總計達3605件交易的金額約新台幣4218件那112年投資的件數跟金額都創下歷史的新高那為促進"},{"start":3289.898,"end":3313.031,"text":"新創的投資政府也推出多項的投資方案主要是包括國外基金的創業天使投資方案以及本部執行的加強投資中小企業實施方案透過共同投資引導民間資金投資新創企業並持續跟國內外的投資機構交流合作來辦理投資媒合活動協助新創企業取得投資"},{"start":3314.111,"end":3324.297,"text":"在創業天使投資方案的部分國發基金在106年通過行政院國發基金創業天使投資方案初期預算是10億元那108年加碼到20億元該方案契機已經投資了274家帶動投資148.25億"},{"start":3332.722,"end":3355.497,"text":"那第二項加強投資中小企業實施方案．國化基金也在112年通過加強投資中小企業實施方案第二期．匡列100億元由本部中小及新創企業署來執行那投資具有潛力的中小及新創企業那目前第一期已經投資350案有285家總投資金額是94億元其中早期階段的新創企業佔154家投資金額是46億元"},{"start":3362.662,"end":3366.811,"text":"第2期自112年10月起至今已經投資21家投資金額達5.57億元"},{"start":3371.038,"end":3396.045,"text":"那在促進民間投資新創的部分政府透過林口及亞灣新創園積極跟國內外的投資機構來合作同時藉由鼓勵中大企業成立企業的加速器以企業參與新創的模式優化新創的商謀並辦理商機媒合交流活動那自108年迄今已經促成176億元的商機跟投資的金額"},{"start":3398.266,"end":3418.225,"text":"融資面本部透過中小企業信用保證基金協助新創企業取得金融機構的資金並用高保證層數分擔金融機構的風險主要措施包括青年創業及啟動金貸款以及新創企業的直接保證方案青年創業啟動金貸款部分自109年起"},{"start":3421.889,"end":3431.541,"text":"針對一百萬以下的貸款以從優、從速、從簡的原則提供9.5成到10成的保證目前自109年迄今已經辦理了11萬件融資金額超過900億元"},{"start":3436.833,"end":3455.498,"text":"為新創企業提供重要的早期資金的協助那新創企業直接保證方案的部分從今年的5月起政府會幫助成立未滿8年具創新能力或無形資產的新創企業取得融資那推出新創企業即無形資產融資保證的措施"},{"start":3456.198,"end":3470.585,"text":"那這個部分目前我們因為剛開始辦理那目前這個企業也正在這個申請當中大概有十幾個案件已經有核准了"},{"start":3471.425,"end":3494.015,"text":"那所以目前另外新保精英為了協助經本部時期向創新研發補助的計畫合訂通過並推薦的中小企業籌措所需的自籌款那從160年起我們也辦理了促進企業創新直接保證的方案保證的層數一律9.5成那截至今年的9月底共承保了227件協助創新或營運發展融資"},{"start":3499.057,"end":3523.924,"text":"總共10.76億元那最後一項是獎補助為協助創新創業政府推出多項的獎補助的措施提供新創企業資金的協助那涵蓋創新研發補助跟創業的競賽那主要的措施包括本部的SBIR還有服務業的SIIR還有以及Aplus的企業創新研發推練的計畫"},{"start":3526.605,"end":3538.032,"text":"還有教育部的U-STAR以及國發的FIDI計畫為新創企業提供支持以SBIR計畫為例自110年至113年的9月已經協助了579家新創企業帶動自主研發4億8千多萬元並增加747名的研發人力"},{"start":3546.838,"end":3561.245,"text":"那未來精進做法的部分為促進新創產業的發展鼓勵更多的資金投資在新創企業本部在113年10月5號已經預告產業創新條例部分條文的修正案朝降低創"},{"start":3563.426,"end":3582.399,"text":"創投的資金門檻並為天使投資人提供租稅的優惠營造更友善的募資環境重點包括修正第23條之一的部分提供有限合夥創投事業創投式的租稅優惠將有限合夥創投的資本門檻從3億元調降至1.5億元並要求至少50%的資金投資在新創事業"},{"start":3587.742,"end":3611.85,"text":"修正第23條之二除現行個人投資設立兩年內之高風險新創事業公司達100萬元持股滿兩年的規定之外增訂個人投資設立兩年以上未滿五年的高風險新創事業公司達50萬元持股滿三年也得以享受個人稅賦的一個優惠那最後簡單結語臺灣新創未來發展將依據"},{"start":3616.272,"end":3616.432,"text":"謝謝何次長"},{"start":3646.656,"end":3670.573,"text":"好現在邀請的單位都已經報告完畢我們接著就開始詢答先做以下的宣告本會委員發言時間8加2分鐘非本會委員發言時間5分鐘今天上午10點半截止發言登記那我們現在按照登記順序請登記第一位的林德福委員"},{"start":3686.843,"end":3693.131,"text":"謝謝主席請彭主委與各列席官員彭主委"},{"start":3696.281,"end":3696.441,"text":"林委員長"},{"start":3716.135,"end":3734.469,"text":"提出階段性的目標兩年有趕、四年有變、六年有成以六年期的計畫來達成亞洲資產管理中心的政策目標我請問主委政府是不是有非成立不可的理由"},{"start":3735.53,"end":3736.03,"text":"主委"},{"start":3766.141,"end":3788.889,"text":"政府如果決心要成立你是不是有把握在你任內讓政策目標完成而不會到最後就流於指紋樓梯響不見人下來的這種口號政策是謝謝委員我想這次如果各位有仔細檢視我們提出的亞洲資產管理中心可能跟過去有些比較不同我們這次非常的務實"},{"start":3789.989,"end":3809.765,"text":"我想即便是任何人接棒都可以非常容易的去執行我們這樣的一個規劃我想這個是一個持續的工作這也不是一個簡單的工作有很多國家他可能花了二三十年來建制但是我們剛才希望說我們能夠在兩年的時候呢讓大家可以有感覺到我們整個制度有所改變"},{"start":3810.686,"end":3838.787,"text":"那所以我們會透過大量法規的鬆綁讓大家知道說臺灣在這方面我們有高度的承諾四年有變我們是希望說我們整個在資產管理規模能夠有顯著的增加六年有成是希望我們臺灣的努力已經可以得到國際上面的肯定說臺灣已經朝向這個方向來發展我想整個國際的金融的競爭是持續的但是我覺得這件事情我覺得一棒接一棒我想這應該是臺灣未來金融市場努力以及國家發展的一個方向"},{"start":3839.167,"end":3860.753,"text":"主委媒體報導金融這個金管會選定高雄市政府合作推動高雄成為亞洲資產管理中心的金融特區設置計畫讓臺灣的有錢人以後去高雄不用去新加坡那我請問現階段除了高雄之外你認為"},{"start":3863.414,"end":3883.312,"text":"臺灣還有哪些城市適合設置的金融特區是謝謝委員我想主要是這次會選選擇跟高雄合作是因為高雄過去在3年來一直都有針對這個計畫在有一定的基礎再加上高雄他有非常多的條件比如說他有灣區還有自由貿易港還有國際港還有距離比如說"},{"start":3884.193,"end":3887.435,"text":"臺灣有非常多的城市都非常適合發展各自的特色像這是陳儒我剛才跟大家報告的內容"},{"start":3902.225,"end":3930.127,"text":"因為高雄市他願意提供非常多地方政府願意提供的誘因我想這部分也是各個地方政府如果願意來發展的話可以盤點自己的優勢我們中央這邊金管會一定會全力配合所以說彭主委你還是認為高雄市最適合在就以現階段我們是做個實驗區希望高雄能夠成功然後能夠複製在我們各個地方各地方縣市如果說有也有這樣一個規劃我想我們都可以來實施"},{"start":3932.088,"end":3948.885,"text":"主委對於金管會規劃亞洲資產管理中心的願景前經濟部長王美花表示臺灣先天有困難因為地緣壓力存在外資要進來會遇到臺灣先天的問題"},{"start":3952.208,"end":3952.568,"text":"跟委員報告．我想"},{"start":3968.658,"end":3983.408,"text":"台灣的狀況大家都非常的清楚但是呢台灣在這個狀況之下也發展出非常多有優勢的產業我想資金呢他有各種不同的面向台灣要發展自己有特色的我們並不是複製比如說我們常提到的像新加坡"},{"start":3983.948,"end":3999.965,"text":"以資金流動為主的資產管理中心我覺得這是不一樣的我想臺灣有他先天的限制但是他有他非常多先天的優勢我想我們這次是非常務實的政策就希望說怎麼樣發揮臺灣的優勢能夠彌補我們相對競爭的劣勢我們覺得還是可以非常有為"},{"start":4005.211,"end":4031.047,"text":"那我請教你如果像王美花所說的真的是有他先天地緣的一個壓力的存在那這個先天困難會不會影響到整個中心的推動會不會我想推動這個東西困難一定有的如果簡單的話就輪不到現在金管會來做我想這個確實是有很多問題要來克服我們有先天的劣勢像剛才講很多不可改變的像比如說我們也盤點過去"},{"start":4032.428,"end":4034.15,"text":"臺灣在這個狀況相對之下是這樣劣勢的還有就是我們有特殊的地緣關係的問題這當然是"},{"start":4051.022,"end":4059.236,"text":"但是在這些限制之下臺灣還是可以發展出非常具有韌性的一些金融活動我想我們就是希望透過發揮我們這個優勢我們非常務實的讓我們的實力展現出來"},{"start":4064.142,"end":4083.921,"text":"主委 基於先天困難的考量政府會不會為了成立而限縮原先計畫中心成立的這種規模會不會我想其實這個亞洲資產管理中心我們現在的策略是這樣我們是希望我們各個金融產業都有現在在做的事情"},{"start":4084.522,"end":4104.421,"text":"我們希望他們在這個計畫之下加大串聯所謂加大串聯就是希望說把我們現在你們現在業務把它做大再來彼此串聯彼此互相協助整個拉伸整個臺灣整體金融業的發展我想這個這樣是可以克服我們現在很多很多的困難我們也不需要去排擠到其他的計畫"},{"start":4106.564,"end":4119.68,"text":"政府既然規劃推動想必應該要對先天困難的存在也應該有因應的一個對策那請問你有什麼因應的對策"},{"start":4120.262,"end":4138.144,"text":"是,謝謝委員的指正就是我剛才講就是說我們有優勢比如說臺灣其實有估計超過比如說民間的財富估計將近有200兆這是我們看到很多報告的估計但是這些呢確實很多呢不是由臺灣的資產管理業者或是由臺灣人來管理這些資產"},{"start":4139.085,"end":4161.137,"text":"那我想說未來這一部分的話我們要怎麼克服其實我們第一個法規鬆綁我們過去確實在在很多的這方面的法規我們有很多可以考慮所以我們在第一年我們自己儘管會去盤點在前兩年希望能夠鬆綁超過50個我們自己所主管的法規命令我想這就是一個我們來克服這困難很重要的點那當然就是再來我們希望投資臺灣"},{"start":4162.057,"end":4163.258,"text":"主委那你認為政府的對策辦法有幾層把握來克服整個先天上的困難"},{"start":4181.547,"end":4198.815,"text":"我想假設委員你問我我是覺得我是很有信心的最好是有信心濟南號稱亞洲資產管理中心那我請問主委我們有什麼條件你認為比新加坡、香港更吸引外資"},{"start":4200.069,"end":4212.482,"text":"而且能夠消除對臺灣先天困難的疑慮也就是投資人面對中國的文攻武嚇還是要前赴後繼一無反顧把資產送到臺灣你認為呢"},{"start":4215.2,"end":4228.674,"text":"報告委員我想主要是我這次在很多地方我強調我並沒有要成為新加坡第二我要成為臺灣的特色的資產管理中心那你認為因為我們現在講實在話這一段時間從賴總統上任以後到現在幾乎這個對岸跟我們"},{"start":4236.843,"end":4246.261,"text":"不但是沒有很好的這個大家互動甚至於搞到兵兇戰為你認為你成立這個中心人家會來投資嗎"},{"start":4247.483,"end":4248.864,"text":"那我請教你那個彭主委"},{"start":4274.685,"end":4274.825,"text":"主委"},{"start":4299.488,"end":4320.48,"text":"其實跨國性的金融或資產管理中心先前的條件就是要有一個穩定安全的政治環境才沒有危害投資的這種餘力那以下有幾個幾點我請問主委主委你說推動亞洲這個資產管理中心並非要取代哪個國家"},{"start":4329.808,"end":4346.582,"text":"我請問主委新資產主義是日本前首相岸田文雄在倒台以前他的政策你認為可以借鏡的地方在哪裡還是你有把握新資產主義在日本失敗在臺灣一定能夠成功嗎"},{"start":4347.242,"end":4375.476,"text":"其實報告委員其實這個在日本並沒有失敗因為它實際上這還是持續在進行的一個計畫我想主要是臺灣跟日本有很多地方相似比如說我們都面臨到高齡化還有就是說我們的財富集中在一些比較保守的投資上面這些都是相同的我們希望透過這個計畫導引民眾有更多的資產管理的意識除了是因應未來高齡化社會的發展也是希望說我們能夠有更積極的投資的這樣的意識能夠投入更多的"},{"start":4376.136,"end":4380.12,"text":"請問主委推動跨部會協調業務是以哪一個或哪幾個部會的業務最多或者是最有挑戰性 您的看法呢"},{"start":4399.617,"end":4422.142,"text":"其實在過去我們跟各部會接觸的立場各部會都非常的支持也提供了非常多他們在各個部會專業的考量像這次我們在TISA的推動的時候我們過去的思維其實上是比較不符合所謂的租稅專業財政部就給我們很多的建議我覺得這個就是一個很好的例證像比如說我們跟其他部會裡面的接觸過程當中都得到非常非常多的意見"},{"start":4422.802,"end":4426.845,"text":"所以說法規鬆綁不只是只有金管會有法規要鬆綁也是要跨部會的法規來配合那當然"},{"start":4441.597,"end":4460.019,"text":"主委最後一個議題蔡總統在執政期間政府推動過境外資金匯回當時也有相關法規及配套現在換代總統執政政府又以推動亞洲資產管理中心的名義要修法來鬆綁"},{"start":4461.22,"end":4461.24,"text":"其實這"},{"start":4478.517,"end":4504.404,"text":"設立中心只是替臺灣有錢人找到一條可以規劃海外資金流通的管道其實委員您誤會了其實我們剛才講像比如我們TESA就是全民參與我們這次資產管理是涵蓋所有的金融業所有的客戶那個高淨值客戶只是其中的一部分不是全部該資金匯回的目的跟這次完全不同我想這是一個金融全面提升刺激經濟的一個方案"},{"start":4505.052,"end":4531.987,"text":"我希望這個主委就是針對這三階段兩年有成的目標包括法規鬆綁調整等等這個我希望這個我們金管會你多琢磨多用一點支持我們會努力我們一定會全力來支持全力來努力謝謝謝謝林德夫委員謝謝彭主委接著我們請登記第二位的吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":4542.264,"end":4571.865,"text":"主席麻煩請進管委彭主委彭主委委員早主委早這個議題其實已經談了很多年了那其中有一個部分的原因我大概跟你分享一下看看你認不認同中國自從接收了香港之後他對香港這樣子的打壓早年香港是亞洲的金融中心所以有很多的"},{"start":4572.56,"end":4601.108,"text":"金融界、全世界金融界的人才很多到香港去工作那因為以前中國他是是一個不自由的地方大家對於馬上進到中國也有一些憂慮所以他就是停留在香港然後再尋找各個附近的國家的投資機會那主要當然也是中國可是自從這個香港被中國政府現在這樣子高壓然後就是"},{"start":4603.056,"end":4629.375,"text":"從反送中之後那很多人認為香港這個金融中心的地位會慢慢失去了那他原來管理了很多的資產會四處跑目前為止受惠最多的當然是新加坡他收到了最多的資金跟收到最多的人才那當然他的背景藝術有很多嘛就剛剛你講的法令"},{"start":4630.458,"end":4639.99,"text":"管的太遠的地方如果你鉅細靡遺那大概很難把這個工作做得很好第二個它是必須要是一個很國際化的地方"},{"start":4641.846,"end":4670.483,"text":"所以就拿你今天這個議題臺灣做亞洲資產管理中心我們其實也是某一個角度也是希望香港的這些人才或是資金能夠有一部分來到臺灣當然不可能全部一部分來到臺灣我們也是希望能夠在香港在沒落的過程中說比較難聽一點我們也分一杯羹這個狀況之下可能就是要比較"},{"start":4671.969,"end":4686.638,"text":"香港、新加坡跟臺灣各有哪些優劣的條件剛剛你跟林委員對話我也是聽到說你有提到有一些優勢有一些劣勢可不可以講得更清楚你認為臺灣在成為亞洲資產管理中心"},{"start":4687.418,"end":4714.299,"text":"也就是希望能夠吸引這些世界金融這些服務人才以及這些產業來到臺灣有何優勢呢臺灣有何優勢剛剛委員提到確實整個國際特別是亞洲的金融中心之間的更迭是確實是我們看到非常顯著包括像比如說日本他們所考慮的也大概是這樣一個角度為什麼在這個時候提出因為資金板塊在移動"},{"start":4715,"end":4735.786,"text":"我想臺灣這時候也是個機會除了這個是天時以外另外還可以非常重要剛才委員提到說臺灣有什麼優勢臺灣有什麼劣勢其實相較之下過去比如說比如說我們的租稅因為我們有臺灣有多元的產業不太可能獨厚金融業所以這部分是我們有特有的我們這個不太可能像新加坡比如說他完全沒有一證稅比如說他的所得稅能夠"},{"start":4737.026,"end":4762.252,"text":"到這樣那個程度我想大概臺灣再怎麼努力我覺得都是我們先天不容易做到再比如說匯率好了匯率他們是盯緊美元所以他進出非常的容易但臺灣不可能央行在過去呢我想副總裁在這邊都知道臺灣有多元的產業他有對匯率有不同的需求所以我們也不可能是向他做到這一點再來他們都有很重要的就是語言過去因為殖民地的關係所以在這邊他有先天的優勢"},{"start":4763.192,"end":4785.68,"text":"但是如果我們還是拿這樣的角度說完全要租稅還是要匯率還是要語言的話我覺得我們再10年也做不到他這個地步所以我們這是非常非常務實的盤點說臺灣有什麼臺灣有三大優勢非常重要第一個我們有非常獨特而且有競爭力的世界級的產業還有衍生出來很多投資機會這讓國際的很多的資本很想進臺灣"},{"start":4788.201,"end":4798.388,"text":"臺灣有非常多金人的財富臺灣在過去整個經濟發展的過程當中其實臺灣累積了非常多的財富可惜這些財富都不在臺灣在被管理著臺灣最近幾年有非常強勁的投資動能"},{"start":4802.171,"end":4829.306,"text":"大家可以看我們的ETF這已經是比如說它的滲透率是亞洲第一還有很多的地方我們都看到臺灣最近的動能還有就是我們的很多的經濟的指數指標都是相較於20年前不可同日而語我想這些都已經在國際上面對臺灣的投資有高度的這樣的一個關注跟認同像比如這次我們談的雙掛牌也是非常有興趣因為很多人對投資臺灣非常有興趣我想資金是多元的所以我們就來發揮這些優勢我們先"},{"start":4831.667,"end":4832.868,"text":"聽你剛剛這樣講那我舉個例子那台積電如果照美國的"},{"start":4861.924,"end":4873.423,"text":"這個標準他已經是破兆元的這個美元的產業了那像這樣子的產業人家在美國買就好了啊我有必要跑到你臺灣來買你臺灣的台積電嗎"},{"start":4875.776,"end":4891.749,"text":"確實"},{"start":4892.029,"end":4909.331,"text":"所以相對人家要來臺灣投資臺灣這一些你剛剛講的第一個優勢我們有非常壯大的這些很好的公司政府也承認我也同意但是問題是有必要一定要來嗎我可以從日本買我從美國買我從其他國家也可以買臺灣的股票啊是"},{"start":4910.012,"end":4925.86,"text":"陳主委員剛剛提到臺積電這麼成熟的標的在資本市場大家都可以買得到但是因為臺積電衍生出來的很多的產業在臺灣你非得要到臺灣來你才有辦法找到就是他來到臺灣去尋找未來的保障"},{"start":4926.3,"end":4952.829,"text":"所以說我們會開放多元的投資像剛才講比如說我們的創投PE還有一些在那個已經成熟標的之前的那些我們要把它找出來成為機構投資人機構法人投資的標的一般的民眾投資當然是投資成熟的標的所以資產管理的概念就是說不是只有看到的股市還有全面的投資機會我們希望引入資金來投資臺灣這些基礎產業能夠能有第二家第三家台積電那這樣子有需要設金融特區嗎"},{"start":4954.349,"end":4973.755,"text":"跟我們報告這是不是特區大家都以為我們設一個所謂的租稅天堂其實沒有各位剛才聽出來就是說特區是因為日本用這個名詞大家想到就是喔又是個租稅天堂其實沒有我們剛才叫做專區聚落聚集我們透過行政措施希望這些能夠聚落形成一個聚集就像我們影資一樣所以我們是"},{"start":4975.137,"end":4993.413,"text":"若剛才像我們講的我們過去從來都沒有做過這件事情比如說我們把我們的OBU把它實體化然後等於說也有人批評說那我到新加坡是因為有些他特殊的地方那我們如果說我們把OBU變成OAMU在高雄港區有個實質的服務他可以做境外的"},{"start":4994.733,"end":5017.221,"text":"資產但是在境內提供服務是境內的臺灣人幫你在做境外的這樣的一個資產還有很多我們的國營在新加坡在香港在其他國家都有設有分子機構我就是這個意思我舉個例子我是住新莊新北市我在新北市我也可以啊我不一定要跑到高雄去啊所以我是說這個金融專區有必要一定要設嗎"},{"start":5018.361,"end":5035.526,"text":"其實跟委員報告假設如果說有注意到的話臺灣很多的機構法人機構投資人或是這些高資產淨值他每年還是要到這個比如說到海外這個因為他很多地方很多的東西還是要實體的服務這個東西因為特別牽涉到複雜的資產管理的時候不是只是買賣股票那麼簡單"},{"start":5036.266,"end":5059.26,"text":"所以這個就是我們要提升當然我知道不是只有買賣股票我是舉這個為例所以有的事情其實不用到裡面現在就可以做了就舉剛剛你的例子說鬆綁法令是一個很重要的工作那這鬆綁法令當然不是只有特區啊你這個鬆綁法令是對全臺灣的啊那這樣子的話我在想說那我舉個例子我如果在新北市會建了一個"},{"start":5060.18,"end":5063.784,"text":"其實專區的概念就是它實際上介於虛擬跟實體之間但是一定要先有個聚落開始比如說"},{"start":5079.24,"end":5104.737,"text":"這樣比較容易吸引國際人才對 像比如我們到新加坡新加坡也不是一個點等於說它有很多很多這個聚集以後人家就會往那邊移動像比如我們去看像比如國際上那個百慕達就是個很典型的例子你看到的地方就是一個島但是它裡面聚集了很多很多人這就是一個聚落的概念這很多時候我們這是全面推動各種計畫實際上有實體有虛擬有各式各樣我們只是希望說地方來一起發力地方一起來努力"},{"start":5105.137,"end":5127.007,"text":"我瞭解你意思說這等於是聚落我們譬如說我們要大量採購我就是要去大賣場那當然每一個地方都可能有門市7-11這種你也可以網購你也可以外送對都可以但是我如果想像說我要去找一個這樣的地方的時候我就要一個群聚的地方那其實就是類似大賣場的概念你的意思說現在這個專區的意思是這樣的意思"},{"start":5129.488,"end":5129.868,"text":"這是一個很大的議題啦那其實"},{"start":5158.52,"end":5159.049,"text":"也非常的複雜"},{"start":5161.357,"end":5188.871,"text":"簡單來講也很困難要很努力也不一定有成績我們來嘗試看看時間過去大家能夠努力到看到一些成果臺灣人本身就很有錢臺灣人本身現在就是你說剛剛講到說為什麼會有那個發行ETF的時候會那麼多因為資金很多不知道去哪裡投資就是我們希望創造更多的投資標的這也是造成我們房市一直飆漲另外一個原因賺的錢我不知道錢放在哪裡我又怕貶值所以"},{"start":5190.471,"end":5209.876,"text":"會環環相扣啦這是委員講到的重點就是說我們希望透過這個東西發揮金融業的創意能夠創造出更多非不動產相關的投資標題出來好 加油齁對 謝謝 謝謝委員的鼓勵謝謝 我們一定努力謝謝吳秉瑞委員謝謝彭主委接著我們請郭國恩委員"},{"start":5219.31,"end":5246.595,"text":"謝謝主席有請彭主委請彭主委謝謝委員長主委好我想那個金礦加速太多大家希望金礦能夠合併都一直有這樣的聲音不過最近受到矚目在上個月的時候有關於中信要收購星光人獸的案子當中我覺得要有制度面當中要來跟那個主委來做一個探討"},{"start":5248.018,"end":5272.914,"text":"有幾項第一個就是說我們明明在2018年的時候已經修正通過的金融控股公司投資管理辦法的部分就是以10%來定義原來是所謂控制性的持股然後把它明確有把它數字化但是以中信提出來的他們要收購介於10%到51%之間但金管會卻說10%無法確定絕對的控制力那明明投資計畫書已經寫10到"},{"start":5275.235,"end":5276.255,"text":"那還有一段時間啊 主委"},{"start":5303.701,"end":5326.023,"text":"他一段時間啊他只是差期而已嘛就是因為我們擔心一個市場秩序論比如說現在假設這個標的本身就有兩個不同意見的10%是你們那個金管會的規定欸為什麼10%就沒有不然你就把10%改掉啊是我們最近呢也開始來檢討這件事情改天那一家寫10%也不行那就按照你的管理你的辦法改的啊"},{"start":5327.339,"end":5350.14,"text":"這個10%只是一個門檻要看條件而定對 你們寫就是10%嘛10到51%那你只要寫10到51%為什麼你確定他做這個到10%就會停止你怎麼憑什麼去做這樣的主觀認定這第一個我要挑戰你的是說你的10%是你們定的控制性時股把他數據化也是你們定的你憑什麼認定說這個個案沒有辦法"},{"start":5352.867,"end":5368.759,"text":"是報告委員這第一個第二個荒謬的地方在哪裡呢依照公開收購公行公司的有價證券的管理辦法第8條當中你得以現金跟有價證券的方式的對用對價的方式來進行收購是那你們又提出說要百分之"},{"start":5370.339,"end":5394.765,"text":"是跟委員報告一下這個是公開收購辦法但是呢金控投資只是說你如果經過核准以後三個月之內你要用公開收購辦法一次購足其實當年時候呢其實等於說我們的金控整併是公開收購的特別規定就是說我們今天來講一般的公開收購確實如政企局他們訂的對一般公司適用他有說有現金跟股票"},{"start":5395.345,"end":5410.585,"text":"但是我們從過去的例子裡面我們有這麼多案例裡面只有六件包括所有的是有含股票大部分都以現金其實一樣這個概念那以後你就標示清楚嘛對不對這個確實法規上面我們沒有寫很清楚不過對啊你要標示清楚啊"},{"start":5412.146,"end":5425.671,"text":"明明法是這樣的規定你要說這個一定要怎樣怎樣你就事後來做一個說明解釋yes or no都是你在講的那依照法來做申請不就出了問題不過委員您誤會了齁我是用體制的方式講話相當於如果合併合併、金控合併的話你總要一個明確的遊戲規則出來嘛確實遊戲規則明確是非常重要非常重要齁"},{"start":5435.374,"end":5461.707,"text":"第三個你又說你無法掌控星光人壽的損益星光人壽是何起大的一個金融公司而且他常常出了很多有的沒有的狀況不論是投資錯誤或者是不斷的被金管會裁罰這個就第三者來說怎麼一下子可以理解星光人壽的財務狀況我如果沒有進去當董事的話我講白一點我即便當董事當了一年還搞不好不一定理解"},{"start":5462.312,"end":5462.852,"text":"財務狀況你們寫說財務狀況要掌握財務狀況掌握"},{"start":5488.643,"end":5488.923,"text":"主委 接下來我們還有機會推動這個合併案"},{"start":5514.326,"end":5538.359,"text":"你不要太多的行政解釋的空間讓法令上的規範流於形式不論10%的量化也是你們弄的還有包括這個規範那個股票的對價收購也是你們弄的還有包括所謂的第三人這種情況底下如何了解收併對象購併對象的一個財務狀況這個都過於嚴苛啦我覺得是因不是因人設事是因人來堵事"},{"start":5539.62,"end":5560.91,"text":"是委員指正的就是說假設我們的法規沒有很明確這我們來檢討來努力但是就是說剛剛那個邏輯並沒有說前後衝突其實因為當初訂了規定的時候這個情境每一個情境這只是一個比如說申請的門檻並不是核准的標準那個主委你論述的能力很強但是我的時間不夠"},{"start":5561.75,"end":5578.571,"text":"麻煩書面補充是 沒問題我再跟委員仔細說明我就教於您的部分最近的這個南非的政治風險增加為什麼因為他要求我們無理的不合法的要求我們撤銷這個代表處離開他的手足"},{"start":5579.91,"end":5600.458,"text":"這種情況底下不禁讓我聯想到我們最近的統計的結果我們不論是在基金的投資總共南非幣計價基金379檔高達2286億另外還有保單投資型保單另外還有包括其他的南非幣的商品等等夯不啷啷加起來大概4000億"},{"start":5601.818,"end":5626.684,"text":"我能不能請你估計一下這4000億是不是正確你會後給我一份資料沒問題我來把那個詳細的數字再給我研發這個風險指數相當的高這其實推估的出來第二個的部分第二個的部分呢他對於南非這樣的處理我們不禁想到一件事情就之前俄羅斯攻在的時候採雷的經驗因為烏俄戰爭的關係那時候我們就要求金管會金管會也同意要將政經風險納入那我問啊"},{"start":5628.803,"end":5643.791,"text":"南非這樣的情況底下符不符合政經風險的部分有沒有必要性把它提高它的風險權數是 我跟委員報告南非這個狀況如果真的跟那個俄羅斯那邊還是有點不同不一樣但是還是有風險不是嗎"},{"start":5646.152,"end":5646.172,"text":"對我們來講"},{"start":5662.295,"end":5687.595,"text":"對 啊你要去關心了解一下啊是會會會 這次用增金風險啊這個風險權數是不是要提升啊一來 作為一種外交的反制我們來做一個必要的反制嘛我們投資他那麼多對 謝謝委員的提醒啊 我想這部分四千億欸 我這是保守估計欸有一個說法是七八千億欸所以我們請你估計嘛那二來也要保護投資人嘛本身這商品本身就有很大的風險性嘛"},{"start":5688.616,"end":5711.378,"text":"對不對 是的 是的謝謝委員的提醒我們回去會請保險局趕緊調查了解這個部分請主委要有所作為啦第三個對於這個風險性的部分我要跟你講最近頻頻傳出啊這個基金經理人啊涉及炒股啊你們想說絕對不容許當然不容許啊問題是怎麼防堵它發生來講到絕對不容許那不是怎麼兩個字就廢話嗎"},{"start":5714.736,"end":5736.092,"text":"那文報告其實這些案子都是我們事後在偵測查出來的我們其實我們背後有一套我們跟跟他們也說了就是說你們不要心存僥倖因為所有東西都留下軌跡對我們交易所這些都有軌跡所以我們只是跟他講說人性面我們要靠制度面來解釋制度就是在約束這種人性"},{"start":5737.458,"end":5758.335,"text":"對 對 制度執行也是讓人性徹底約束為關鍵的原因事後跟事前事前的部分要靠法律制度事後是靠你行政執行嘛你現在你看一年就發生兩件再加上之前的好 那你現在開放主動型的ETF就是給操盤人更多的空間給予更大的受信跟可能性這相對的風險跟增加嘛 不是嗎"},{"start":5758.855,"end":5776.583,"text":"這我們確實要來努力因為什麼就是說市場開放是一股力量我們不得不開放我們不能因為少數違規的個案我們就把市場牽制住我們是要把它相對我們要加強我們管控的力道我們有能力牽制喔我們沒有主張不開放喔"},{"start":5777.263,"end":5803.302,"text":"其實我們背後有一套監視的我們會再三跟他們宣導我們有一套監視的系統其實凡走過都必留下痕跡一個方式是事先的部分就是法律上的他律的部分他自律的部分然後加上他的自律第一來就是說我們的頭信頭顧法有八這個違規的法款的部分最近我們送出去立法院送出去委員會的部分有300萬到1500萬對不對是"},{"start":5806.404,"end":5818.701,"text":"這個有提高這是針對法人針對自然人的部分有沒有可能提高因為自然人就實際上的案例雖然刑法上有說5到7年或7年以上等等不同的金額但是就實際案例多半都是緩刑"},{"start":5820.312,"end":5836.997,"text":"這種東西怎麼會有嚇阻效果呢也就是說你行政的作為你有處罰你有揭露但是最終到法律的刑事審判的時候卻是以反刑作為收尾這些經理人他到人生的後半段的話他就想說乾脆我給你賭一把好了不是嗎所以造成這種僥倖的結果"},{"start":5838.177,"end":5854.353,"text":"我們會用制度來解決人性面的問題我們還是希望說我們的管制不要是一個無差別的管制我們希望是針對真的有效的管制我們只要強調說這個部分能夠再強化一點當你一邊在開放的時候"},{"start":5855.054,"end":5857.595,"text":"主委我給你拜託一下好不好新的保險局局長來是不是不清楚"},{"start":5885.436,"end":5901.114,"text":"去年7月1號的時候我們才把這些高風險的禦禁止而已啊這花了多少力氣啊那今年它居然是這個五指山號稱業界號稱的五指山禁令你竟然是暗度承擔就想要把它開放"},{"start":5902.242,"end":5922.812,"text":"這有道理嗎我跟委員報告一下就是說這部分我們也經過仔細的評估就是其實剛剛委員提到就是對一般的客戶是沒有的這部分我們保護還是一樣維持但是我們是權委的部分權委的部分只是對比率因為我們現在不是說他這個比率你是開放權委的部分權委是因為他有一個專業的投資人在操作而不是由"},{"start":5923.692,"end":5949.454,"text":"民眾去購買你開放的比例你全委的部分他就不設定比例了嗎原來是20%那我們現在是希望說20跟另外一個新興在是10%我們希望來調整這個不是全部都你可以調整你不能開放啊你如果說有專業的作為考量的話你一層可以多個1.5層或多兩層你不能說一層就變成10層嘛對不對當然當然這部分我們會而且講白一點壯大投信投信這幾年的發展這麼好"},{"start":5950.697,"end":5950.717,"text":"網絡媒體"},{"start":5972.811,"end":5999.951,"text":"這部分我們是很謹慎在做剛剛委員關注的就是說對一般投資人的保護我們一定堅守這個底線但是確實是比如說像美喬商會他們也說全世界沒有人做這個限制只有臺灣我跟你講美喬商會那些人叫Broker啦這個佣金就特別高啦我跟你講白點啦所以會來拉比啦你要考慮到那些人背後的動機啦好不好這才是關鍵的言語啦你自己講出來就是你被拉比嘛謝謝"},{"start":6002.825,"end":6006.427,"text":"謝謝郭委員謝謝彭主委接著我們請賴會員委員謝謝主席請那個主委彭主委有請"},{"start":6021.71,"end":6047.927,"text":"委員好是 主委主委早安早那我們今天討論的主要的一個題目就是政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產中心的一個具體作為還有就是他如何協助金融科技跟新創產業籌資的一個現況跟未來的發展是主委我想在這裡請教你所謂新創產業你如何用簡單的一個定義來定義它"},{"start":6050.648,"end":6075.063,"text":"新創確實在過去並不是金管會主政的單位我們大概是管理基金面的部分比如說我們在這裡面我們大概是針對比如說PE跟創投大概是我們在法規裡面所對象的這個內容所以新創在來講確實我們是比較沒有去從我們的法規去界定它但是我們的想像就是說我們的對於"},{"start":6076.044,"end":6083.805,"text":"一些還沒有一個成熟到可以上市櫃之前的這些的產業我們都可以把它視為是新創來做一個輔導這樣"},{"start":6085.484,"end":6107.131,"text":"所以說基本上就是在未來就是亞洲資產中心其實我們有很多的一個創意的一個那個金融科技這樣的一個產物會產生出來對 有很多可能他們現在有很好的點子或很好的營業模式但欠缺資金去成為一個成熟的比如說可以上市櫃的標的之前"},{"start":6107.771,"end":6126.641,"text":"那這些我們需要有一套機制去輔導他像我也請那個交易所跟櫃買能夠把這個輔導向下延伸到更前端其實就是針對這所謂的新創希望創造一個更靈活那就是一個投資的一個環境在臺灣是有各種多元的投資的機會"},{"start":6127.93,"end":6142.184,"text":"好 主委臺灣金融科技你認不認同這一句話那認不認同這個就是臺灣當前的一個經濟的一個現況其實這個報告我也有注意到但是就是說"},{"start":6143.547,"end":6163.275,"text":"因為這個報告有很多類似都提到臺灣的民間財富是非常的 非常的這個 豐沛那我們想就是說我這裡有一個資料就是說我們從德國安聯集團發布的最新的全球財富報告裡頭他統計到2023年的年底其實臺灣的錢就是說"},{"start":6167.436,"end":6168.097,"text":"財政部長翠雲、中央銀行"},{"start":6188.195,"end":6210.713,"text":"那個資產融資資產的淨值他大概是一個人大概是520萬那佔了全球排序第5那這一個還不是只有2023在2022也是在前幾年都是都是這樣的一個狀況所以說我們如果要說臺灣是陰核這個實在是不為過不知道部長你同不同意這樣的一個說法"},{"start":6211.273,"end":6234.097,"text":"這也是我們推動亞洲資產管理中心在看看我們的環境條件一個觀察到的點確實我們在民間財富是非常豐沛是嘛 常戶移民嘛那你就看到民間的這個財富非常的豐沛那如果我們用我們自己的主計總處的一個調查那我們也看到了這個淨值 這個更精準每一個人是會達到669萬"},{"start":6238.939,"end":6266.318,"text":"689萬那甚至就是說在111年底的時候我們每一個人的淨值是688萬好家庭的財富這個還包括是黃地產還有現金還有活存那定存外匯的存款這樣子這麼多其實我們真的是非常有錢主委在之前的一個論壇中你有特別提到了過去過去就是我們臺灣有非常充沛的一個銀行存款"},{"start":6267.159,"end":6271.142,"text":"確實我們現在的存款每年都在增加我們的超額儲蓄也在上升"},{"start":6284.147,"end":6304.525,"text":"所以沒有錯好那簡單的來講就是推動臺灣成為亞洲的資產中心其實我們有很多的一個計畫那我們有很多的條件足以就是說提這一個計畫那事實上就是說在今晚會提出來的五大策略規劃裡頭我們當然知道就是說"},{"start":6305.686,"end":6328.451,"text":"重大資產管理那一直到最後的這個頭那個擴大投資臺灣其實我最想跟那個主委談到了就是說如何就是推動臺灣成為亞洲的資產管理中心因為我們看到你這一個計畫裡頭那其實做了非常的縝密甚至在這五個策略的規劃當中你還系列了16個"},{"start":6334.772,"end":6345.116,"text":"這個五大策略的規劃中我們其實已經從擴大臺灣投資的這個項目裡頭我先來跟你做一個討論那我想就是吸引外資來臺臺商持續看好"},{"start":6349.457,"end":6378.677,"text":"就是說外商跟臺商持續看好臺灣的一個投資的環境那也這個在我們的投資的金額創了新高這個其實非常明顯的一個那個數字都可以告訴我們從2018年到2019年就是吸引外資來臺我們的臺商的資金回臺的時候我們有看到了就是國際經濟的情勢一直不斷的一個轉變中美貿易的利差還有全球化"},{"start":6379.637,"end":6399.312,"text":"那就是說資金也從中國撤回來了那今年初我們國會統計過去的8年跟之前相比就是用8年為一個局劇來比的話外資的投資是從1.2兆倍增到8年後的2.5兆這個其實在投資臺灣的三大方案裡頭"},{"start":6400.413,"end":6424.572,"text":"那我們也看到了他的金額已經超過2.1兆還有我們這個當然包括境外資金匯回的一個專案的一個搭配等等所以其實我們有夠多的條件夠多的條件錢回來了我們要如何擴大投資臺灣的這一些計畫經濟部把錢帶回來了那金管會如何搭配"},{"start":6425.616,"end":6445.311,"text":"第一個就剛才提到就是說我們希望能夠多元投資標的所以我也有注意到我們的臺灣的資本市場對不對我們現在的這個這麼多年來比如說我們從大概現在今天大概是兩萬三千多點是整個市值呢大概已經到來到接近八十兆"},{"start":6446.112,"end":6461.104,"text":"我想這個就是我們提供的更多元的這樣一個投資標的當然就是說所以這裡我們也責成政經局還有兩個交易所持續的尋找更多優質的上市標的然後增加公司治理的這個品質"},{"start":6463.085,"end":6467.587,"text":"讓更多的資金能夠自由安全的進出在臺灣的這些市場可是主委也是一樣啊你這個金管會管得那麼嚴那條文又那麼嚴謹那事實上就是你又要開放就是創新的一個產業"},{"start":6478.753,"end":6494.608,"text":"這個其實是不是會前後左手打右手當然這個是一個比較大的一個議題尤其就是說美國降息的一個趨勢又會有更多的錢回到國內這個就是我一直要本席要一直提醒你就是說"},{"start":6496.291,"end":6509.135,"text":"到底這樣子的一個投資環境對我們臺灣你如何來看待尤其是我們的貧富差距的一個問題那從2021年底臺灣家庭的財富平均是1638萬"},{"start":6511.696,"end":6526.512,"text":"那中位數他是掉在就是894萬那其實如果你從就是說最高跟最低他這兩個家庭的財富只有143萬最低的只有143萬這兩者的差距是24倍啊"},{"start":6529.615,"end":6544.86,"text":"臺灣人雖然有錢的人非常多可是窮困的人也真的是非常的窮那大家都知道說富人跟窮人其實在貧富的差距裡頭還要還持續的在擴大那擴大的速度越來越快那主委怎麼辦"},{"start":6547.428,"end":6569.189,"text":"這個跟委員報告這個議題確實不是我們金管會的專門不過我們在這部分我們想要努力剛剛委員有提到就是說怎麼樣市場安全跟開放之間做一個平衡這個確實是我們金管會很大的挑戰那我們也在這次推亞洲資產管理中心我們是希望一個全面的提升我剛才提到不是獨厚哪一個群體"},{"start":6570.05,"end":6583.823,"text":"因為每個群體對臺灣的貢獻都是有的我們也不會說但是就是說我們也希望能夠全民能夠普惠所以各位剛剛談到那個TISA的投資或是未來我們會在普惠金融商品的推出還有永續"},{"start":6585.004,"end":6611.873,"text":"綠色商品這些都是那剛剛比如貧富差距的話如果說金管會這邊剛剛講那個計畫也有考慮到這個內容不過確實這個是一個國家很大的問題我們的希望說透過我們資產管理中心能夠推動讓金融業的產業比如說我們的基層員工能夠提升他的薪資水準能夠把國外的這些因為我們的工作條件不好而在海外工作的年輕人把他請回來這些都是來解決這個貧富差距以後我想透過這個計畫"},{"start":6612.853,"end":6624.469,"text":"我想主委 招商引資、留財跟招攬更多的人才到臺灣來我們都贊成我們贊成政府那個因勢力導那吸引更多的一個資金到臺灣來投資建設臺灣"},{"start":6626.778,"end":6653.645,"text":"當然我那個認同你的專區聚落我們要挑戰你那我也希望就是說你透過資產管理中心的相關的一個配套有效的利用資金那我希望這些資金回來的時候不是只有炒房不是只有炒股市那我們希望這些資金可以引入公建的一個計畫還有你的普惠永續金融的一個計畫的一個互相的一個配合所以"},{"start":6654.085,"end":6665.83,"text":"我想這個是要特別跟那個主委提到的那在這裡本席提出來就是說我希望就是在一個業內可以提出就是說擴大投資臺灣計畫裡頭如何結合經濟部的投資臺灣的三大方案"},{"start":6671.796,"end":6692.288,"text":"我們來推動律師的一個專案或是壯大資本的一個市場那支持創新這個請給本席就是一個業內書面的一個回覆是沒有問題謝謝謝謝委員謝謝賴委員謝謝主委接著我們請李燕秀委員"},{"start":6701.701,"end":6706.597,"text":"謝謝召委主委要不要先喝口水再上來喝了齁好那你就慢慢"},{"start":6710.728,"end":6738.001,"text":"主委我今天有兩大主題我等一下第二個階段會問國發會主委我還是非常關心臺灣整體經濟的發展我們都非常清楚知道在臺灣整體的中小企業對於過去臺灣發展經濟發展起飛的過程中小企業的力量非常的關鍵也非常重要中小企業他有一定的靈活性跟彈性他也因為臺灣在發展中小企業非常穩定也讓臺灣度過"},{"start":6739.642,"end":6752.005,"text":"好幾次全球的金融的危機我想你非常清楚那你知道中小企業的定義是什麼嗎?他的資金要多少以下?你知不知道?中小企業他的資本額是在1億以下他僱用的員工是未達200個人的這個員工他叫中小企業"},{"start":6761.227,"end":6777.087,"text":"在臺灣整體的中小企業總共有160萬家在臺灣全體的企業達98%主委所以你就知道中小企業對臺灣來說太重要臺灣不能只靠一個台積電更不能只靠一個鴻海"},{"start":6780.15,"end":6796.463,"text":"中小企業就業人數更高達全臺灣總共勞工人口將近八成所以中小企業經營的好不好成敗對臺灣的大多數人來說太重要太重要我相信我說到這邊你應該同意我的話"},{"start":6798.285,"end":6811.78,"text":"在所有的跨國大企業當中其實很多都是從中小企業剛開始發展開始發展的過程當中可能很多人是沒錢、沒有機房所以對他來說第一桶金最重要"},{"start":6813.541,"end":6831.186,"text":"這個典型的例子我拿出誰來舉例郭台銘郭台銘的第一桶金他剛開始他沒有信用沒有錢沒有人脈沒有地沒有廠房他也沒有辦法做抵押所以他剛開始他就是走租賃的模式用抵押機器的方式才有機會去買到日本的機器"},{"start":6832.046,"end":6847.265,"text":"所以他常常自己在臉書說他感謝當時的租賃公司提供給他第一桶金所以他非常感謝他臉書裡面寫得很清楚他非常感謝駱啟明董事長還有當時的中租臺灣很多中小企業"},{"start":6849.201,"end":6873.27,"text":"除了郭台銘之外還有更多中小企業不計其數就是從租賃企業借第一桶金開始發展所以合法合理的租賃企業對臺灣打下過去的經濟基礎非常非常的重要今天2023年鴻海它的營收達到6.16兆新臺幣等於是我們兩倍一年我們國家的稅出的預算"},{"start":6874.23,"end":6898.515,"text":"所以我們感謝除了感謝郭台銘過去的發展帶動臺灣很多整體經濟更感謝當時的他的他有這樣子的第一桶金那我相信中小企業發展過程當中的第一桶金其實租賃企業扮演了也很重要的角色在裡頭那當然包括主委你知道包括去年的中租繳多少的所得稅嗎"},{"start":6900.374,"end":6907.417,"text":"他的營業額非常大但是詳細繳稅對沒關係他排名全臺灣的第6名他總共繳了101.68億新臺幣他已經超過很多他繳稅的金額已經超過很多的電子科技業所以"},{"start":6920.261,"end":6936.075,"text":"主委我最近跟很多中小企業座談他們對於他們未來世界的整個狀況還有包括他們現在面對的淨零排碳的挑戰還有大陸的這個經濟不景氣所以包括很多的科技戰等等大國之間挑戰對他們後續的影響"},{"start":6938.297,"end":6959.371,"text":"他們都很多的擔心跟擔憂當然更多中小企業擔心說供股行庫對租賃企業的放款接下來放大減市或者是甚至準備剛開始準備自行創業的很多的有能力的這些好朋友他們都開始擔心說他們的前景跟未來"},{"start":6960.171,"end":6976.2,"text":"所以其實租賃企業在臺灣存在超過50年的時間那過去服務往來超過的企業超過10萬家中小企業所以接下來我有幾個問題要問主委就是說我們當然不希望就是說"},{"start":6977.921,"end":6995.925,"text":"因為現在你們有可能對於從媒體上可以看到就是說對於國營企業對於融資公司你們現在有可能開始做緊縮的政策要開始抽回銀根但是會不會相對的對於很多中小企業想借錢的等於是掐住他們的脖子"},{"start":6996.445,"end":6997.386,"text":"我們開始談融資公司這問題從民國85年就來討論這個問題"},{"start":7015.999,"end":7017.721,"text":"我絕對同意少數對這種但這些融資公司其實做的很多都還是中小企業對個人的分兩塊"},{"start":7038.598,"end":7065.106,"text":"為什麼要講這段歷史就要說其實融資公司他本身是一個非常複雜的問題我們討論了30幾年了那因為這個問題呢又不斷的衍生出新的問題剛剛委員提到就是說融資租賃公司他有做兩大塊的業務一個叫做我們假設以我們金融業來區分一個叫契金一個叫做個金法金跟個金就企業的還有就是剛剛您提到中小企業那就是企業金融的部分"},{"start":7065.906,"end":7081.795,"text":"過去確實在租賃公司在這一塊他提供了融資就是我們正常銀行以外另外一個非常重要就在支持產業的發展但是隨著大家現在關心的所以你簡答就好了因為我今天其實兩個主題現在大家關心的是在那個消費金融那一塊"},{"start":7082.555,"end":7109.253,"text":"所以即便說未來我們是對就真的會產生的就是剛剛講的就是那種變相的借款過度融資這些我同意這一塊我們應該好好管理對就是未來的管理的重點會在這一塊好謝謝主委所以你也同意我的說法就是說我們認為合理的融資公司他不會是金管會的敵人他反而是穩定我們現在金融很重要的一環確實在企業金融部分他們過去是對中小企業是貢獻非常多"},{"start":7110.113,"end":7131.947,"text":"對,好,所以主委我知道你們現在正在做討論到底要修金寶法把這些納入還是未來設專法我都尊重但是我也希望說接下來可以多聽中小企業的意見再來做後續的決定這是個複雜的問題要非常精細的解決好,謝謝主委,你可以請回我時間先暫停一下我第二個問題我請國發會好不好好,謝謝,謝謝委員謝謝主委謝謝還有三分鐘再附主委來"},{"start":7141.229,"end":7155.883,"text":"委員好是副主委你們最近我從媒體上看到你們要做一個兆元投資國家方案發展的方案這件事情長期我關注我相信彭主委也非常清楚對於受險業你們希望受險業有更多的資金"},{"start":7156.503,"end":7178.771,"text":"留在臺灣做公共建設這件事情我個人是支持因為我在這邊質詢過好幾次前流臺灣相對於現在包括海外像美國最近在降息接下來臺灣臺幣可能會升值這都會增加他們很多再投資的風險或利差會差的很多的風險在所以方向上是正確的"},{"start":7179.651,"end":7201.305,"text":"但是如何落實我其實看到你們的報告還有報告從媒體上的說明我就有好多問題點就是說方向是正確但是到底你們做這些規劃公共建設的規劃到底能不能吸引他們願意錢放在臺灣投資相對的因為他收的是保護的錢"},{"start":7202.566,"end":7210.957,"text":"他必須要足夠的利率才願意投資所以你們評估過你們現在評估的項目到底可以至少保住多少"},{"start":7213.671,"end":7241.785,"text":"因為現在還在推動中我想沒辦法直接給委員明確的答案不過在這個方案裡面本來就會規劃有關於這個因為保險要投資進來可能他有一個方式譬如說債券所以我們會鼓勵政府的中央跟地方政府來發行永續債這樣子保險業就比較有穩定的現金流因為相關的債券當然穩定的現金流合理的報酬率這些都是他們要追求的目標對"},{"start":7242.765,"end":7262.005,"text":"但是如果沒有一個足夠的利率他為什麼錢要留在這邊當然是所以你有沒有去估計過就是說方案方向上我是支持在標下的很大造源的投資方案但是到底能不能落實我就有問號啊你們有沒有去盤點各部會裡面到底有多少項目是他們有願意"},{"start":7263.166,"end":7291.699,"text":"或有可能否則政府發行公債我們只一點多你要付到受請業4%到5%或甚至5%以上他才願意投搞了老半天沒有一個項目沒有一個項目他們是投的進來最後當然這些公共建設的投資依我過去我的瞭解其實你們現在打算用一個有償公共服務的發行PPP的財務的負擔方法跟方式"},{"start":7292.199,"end":7319.722,"text":"也就是創新的促餐法創新的促餐法促餐法有幾個問題很多縣市都不敢推動以現在因為促餐法它都是一個長期的投資10年20年慢慢回收今年我們政府跟民間的投資方案做出來的公式10年20年之後可能會因為政治環境的不同會變成當時怎麼簽這樣的合約這個是有圖利的問題所以很多政府不敢做不願意做不了解"},{"start":7320.824,"end":7324.578,"text":"所以這就產生了很多民間願意投資公共建設的"},{"start":7326.26,"end":7352.145,"text":"影響跟意願所以我在這邊再次提醒你這個不是只有你能說說要不要做我希望這件事能夠成功但是我希望跨部會的我們來盤點中央跟地方來盤點否則你有償的公共服務方案這些創新的PVP方案我覺得地方政府的意願恐怕現在面臨現在的政治環境我覺得會有很大的挑戰"},{"start":7354.359,"end":7371.236,"text":"是,謝謝委員指教那個我們的確了解委員提到的問題所以我們會中央跨部會會有個小組那也會跟地方政府溝通那我們也有成立一些修法的這些專案的工作小組就是試著了解大家在無論民間或地方政府在這方面可能有某些障礙"},{"start":7371.796,"end":7371.816,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":7399.615,"end":7401.977,"text":"接著我們請李坤城委員好謝謝主席這個我們請金管會彭主委那等一下我講到TISA的時候再請這個財政部的李政務次長在一起上來請彭主委跟李次長我們待會到王鴻威委員執行完畢的時候我們休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":7428.396,"end":7445.326,"text":"主委我先請教一下日本的前首相岸田文雄在2023年12月的時候他提出了一個資產運用立國實現的計畫他希望透過日本巨額的個人金融資產投資於成長的企業並將投資收益回報個人的循環模式"},{"start":7449.029,"end":7476.228,"text":"實現成長跟分配的良性循環日本的投資他們希望說儲蓄太多了希望拿來投資還有設立了這個四個金融特區有東京然後呢雜幌然後福岡大阪那各有各的特色比如說東京當然就是這個國際金融中心然後這個北海道的雜幌呢它就是這個再生能源供給的這個基地"},{"start":7477.367,"end":7477.927,"text":"打造臺灣為亞洲資產管理中心"},{"start":7507.369,"end":7525.921,"text":"他那時候我講一個重點他是希望說這個經濟規章制度整合公司的資源提供多元產品服務吸引國際的資產管理業者來臺營運讓臺灣成為亞洲資產的投資資產管理的中心吸引外資來到臺灣營運讓臺灣成為亞洲的這個投資資產管理中心"},{"start":7535.308,"end":7550.181,"text":"這是賴總統的雄心壯志但是我看到目前金款會的做法把亞洲資產管理中心縮水了變成只有臺灣的資產管理中心"},{"start":7551.583,"end":7570.224,"text":"說水了本來是說外資要來臺灣那希望說這個引進外資然後讓臺灣的這個經濟啊產業啊更蓬勃的發展但是我看到目前主委的做法金管的做法好像就只有在管理臺灣人的財富管理臺灣人的"},{"start":7570.925,"end":7574.066,"text":"提供一些簡便的行政措施然後形成一個專業的聚落然後呢管理這個臺灣的這個有錢人的財富"},{"start":7592.094,"end":7617.249,"text":"是這樣子嗎跟委員報告這只是我們其中計畫的一部分剛剛委員提到我剛才在做那個專案報告提到我們這是個要盤點我們優勢務實的來做這是個長遠的計畫沒有縮水我們只是從我們現在可以開始做了各位可能委員看到就我們現在做的好像是很小的但是實際上這樣一步一腳印的往前走我們也不吹牛不說我做很多不是啊好啦你意思是說你務實就對了"},{"start":7620.131,"end":7641.477,"text":"沒有沒有剛剛有提到就是說我們第二個計畫就是要吸引國外資產管理我們已經跟這些世界上這些大的資產管理公司我們都全面的在接觸中我們也提供非常非常多的誠意還有一些誘因跟他們在討論有沒有可能先講你的第一步短期的做法在高雄設立一個那是一個實驗區對一個實驗專區實驗專區產業的聚落同樣的我也要問啊"},{"start":7647.674,"end":7676.722,"text":"那為什麼我不在台北我不在新北那我要特別去飛去高雄是這樣一主要是因為高雄他那邊有一個自由貿易港區的一個設置再來就是高雄市政府跟過去有幾家金融機構在這個地方已經談了大概有兩三年的時間那這個跟你的這個資產管理中心有什麼樣的關係那這個很重要比如說韋恩你想想看臺灣有很多的這些高資產的人他要到新加坡去理財"},{"start":7677.779,"end":7697.636,"text":"我知道你也跟我經過那我的問題在於說我為什麼要去高雄不留在新北我新北也可以這樣做阿可以可以這沒問題我剛才講為什麼選高雄只是一個起點因為高雄市政府在過去這些準備比較多比如他的場地還有他一些的所謂的行政優惠措施已經非常具體了你講的那些東西齁場地、行政優惠措施"},{"start":7698.557,"end":7717.728,"text":"對於這些有錢人對於這些具有資產的人來講我覺得根本不是誘因啊這個委員您就誤會了就是比如說我們剛才講說我誤會了對凡事都有個起點我們希望像比如說我們也看到很多的所謂的資產管理中心它是一個很多人都聚落所慢慢形成的一個區塊所以我剛才都有聽啦但是我是覺得說"},{"start":7721.177,"end":7742.611,"text":"這個總統的政見是要打造成這個亞洲資產管理中心你現在變成在管理臺灣的這個財富而已那只是其中一部分那你講的你說這個要找這個外資誠意是不夠的大家都有誠意啊就是說你為什麼他們要來臺灣不去新加坡香港可能現在不去了啦那為什麼要來臺灣這個這一點其實啊如果說"},{"start":7746.297,"end":7755.874,"text":"委員如果注意到我們現在跟這些外國資產管理部說就是說你如果沒有一些相關的法律的修改那你跟過去的這個過去也提出很多口號喔"},{"start":7757.486,"end":7778.916,"text":"我在當學生時代就都全部聽過了喔是 這也是我們被質疑最多的地方我剛才講說其實很多的時空環境不一樣了像比如我們在接觸的這些比如說已經在台灣設置資產管理中心的這些國外的資產管理公司在台灣其實很多但是他們最近也高度的關注要不要把更多的作業中心更多的後台搬到台灣來"},{"start":7779.716,"end":7798.245,"text":"是啦那我認識說你一定要去做有一些事情的改變他們才會來嘛你不做任何事情的改變你不可能說我今天我要打造一個亞洲資產管理中心那他們就過來啦對所以說我的意思是說我們現在剛才講如果各位有仔細我們現階段有我都很仔細在聽欸對我說"},{"start":7800.346,"end":7820.098,"text":"當然謝謝委員就是說我說我9月10號的時候我公布是金管會所做的那接下來我們現在也很密集的在跟各部會協調整個國家其他部會的內容是什麼那我們會在第二階段再跟大家宣布說我們整體國家的政策是什麼那我們會對外就是說第一個啦我希望這個是總統的政見我也希望他能夠落實"},{"start":7821.539,"end":7844.988,"text":"但是我是目前看到的短期的他只是在管理臺灣的有錢人的資產而且他不一定要去高雄啊你如果說講金融中心的話可能雙北還是金融中心啊我們整個臺灣就是一個虛擬的整個的中心只是我們希望像日本一樣每個地方政府如果他們有打出四個特色出來喔我剛才有點出來啊但是呢"},{"start":7846.109,"end":7864.245,"text":"在你的這個計畫裡面其實沒有其實高雄灣區那邊它是真的有它很多其他我們城市沒有我們也希望說其他的我們的城市願意我們一起來討論一起來努力你的報告我有看你的專訪我也有看我是認為真的還要再更具體一點"},{"start":7865.286,"end":7889.089,"text":"那你當然說你很務實但是我就是覺得說你的目標實在是太小了就是集中在這個臺灣的資產的管理這部分我們這是第一步啦那你的下一步是何時啊我們先比如說剛才提到我們跟很多人談過在規劃的時候我們想說連臺灣人自己都不願意把這個錢留在臺灣交給臺灣的團隊來管理你怎麼吸引國外人過來"},{"start":7889.79,"end":7907.866,"text":"所以我們希望趕快快速的聚集國內的資產沒有任何的這些誘因法條的一些改變的話那還是很難我再請教一下日本的有個人儲蓄賬戶叫NISA從2014年就開始了他們針對一般民眾、孩童或是"},{"start":7913.903,"end":7935.65,"text":"這個青年有這個NISA日本版的個人儲蓄的帳戶那鼓勵民眾進行投資不是只有儲蓄,儲蓄轉投資希望在5年內呢達到這個NISA的開戶數還有投資金額雙倍的設定目標那也間接的呢這個讓這個日經指數也上漲了那好處至少有兩個第一個呢就是"},{"start":7936.343,"end":7957.517,"text":"鼓勵民眾及早做退休金的準備保障老年人的經濟安全那第二個呢我剛提到了引導資金投入資本市場支持實體經濟的持續成長日本版的那臺版的TISA我也聽主委也講過很多次了但是我看了一下臺版的TISA又不太一樣了臺版的TISA它變成是禮專這個一本萬利的帳戶"},{"start":7962.234,"end":7985.054,"text":"就是說他只是跟這個所有投資人講因為站在你旁邊的財政部有意見所以你就跟投資者講好啦那我就跟你講呢有哪一些這個政策的優惠啊租稅的優惠啊手續費的優惠啊那你可以放到這個帳戶裡面來然後幫你做一個統一的管理鼓勵你來參與那裡面要放什麼東西呢都由你自己來決定"},{"start":7986.095,"end":8001.805,"text":"就等於是一個禮專你去跟這個高端的客戶講來來來我跟你講齁你這個東西齁放哪裡這個東西放哪裡齁有什麼租稅的減免這都是目前有的阿我只是幫你規劃而已阿對這個對不對所以你的TISA是不是變成這樣子"},{"start":8002.805,"end":8029.213,"text":"委員我們做很多事情要有一定的步驟又來了當然不是我說如果說我們一定要等到租稅優惠才做的話我覺得這個什麼事情都很困難就沒辦法做因為你旁邊財政部不同意有意見財政部基於他的專業他有他自己的考量比如說不是啊我們是一個團隊嗎對所以說我們非常非常緊密的合作我們先用這個方式來做其實待會也可以請財務部說明一下這個其實是很有吸引力的"},{"start":8029.953,"end":8044.697,"text":"有吸引力的 我有什麼吸引力來 我問一下給各位一點時間我問一下主委你心目中的TESA應該是長什麼樣應該這樣 剛剛委員提到其他國家他有個特色他們就是他們的資本 我講臺灣你想怎麼做 TESA你想怎麼做"},{"start":8046.698,"end":8070.048,"text":"其他國家不管是英國或是比如說這個這個比如在日本他們是因為他們的資本利得是課稅所以他很容易的做個提撒就是說你今天如果說投資這個一定額度的話你這邊因為股票投資獲利我可以給你免稅臺灣在過去在資本利的就是沒有課稅所以我們要想就沒辦法用用他那套東西所以大家很多說奇怪為什麼別人來做我們因為我們的制度就不一樣"},{"start":8070.888,"end":8091.057,"text":"我們想要做的就是說我們怎麼樣做出臺版的這樣一個TESA我們不能完全抄人家稅制是不同的所以我意思是說我們怎麼樣鼓勵鼓勵我們的所以臺版TESA是跟我剛才講的這個有沒有什麼有什麼差別嗎所以剛才我也提到那個禮專那個概念我倒是第一天我從來都沒有提過是禮專的部分但是那個基本的內容是差不多啊"},{"start":8092.077,"end":8107.306,"text":"其實喔有什麼不一樣第一個我覺得這次呢比如說業者就讓利他說第一個對啊你是叫業者啊手續費優惠啊對不對這是第一步再來就是說我們我們透過我們比如說吉寶可以幫各位建建這樣一個管理的專戶"},{"start":8108.146,"end":8134.426,"text":"那再來就是其實我們現在投資長期投資現在我們長期投資股票可能很多人不知道其實就有一些稅務的優惠很多人不知道這個稅務優惠本來就有的阿對不對但是很多人不知道那就是李專跟你講就是說你投資在這邊齁你放在這個資產放在這邊可以有什麼優惠我們一般人不知道李專知道阿其實我覺得這部分我進來進去是變成這樣子而已阿這也是要推廣到不要占用時間了齁這個齁按照媒體來講齁"},{"start":8139.254,"end":8167.047,"text":"這個其實儘管我是想做但是財政部有意見不同調最後在行政院長卓榮泰的緩加之下兩大部會持續溝通我是希望說因為今天部長沒有來我是希望說持續來溝通如果希望說第一個他能夠引導這個儲蓄變成投資就來做要有誘因你相關的稅制就要做修改這是第二個那第二個就是說像日本的他們還有做這個老人退休的一些經濟的一些規劃"},{"start":8168.327,"end":8187.942,"text":"這個未來我們也是可以做但是我看到目前至少你的版本東扣西扣然後這個財政部有意見然後你就回到這個最基本的我剛才講理專那個是我是認為說內容是差不多啦你只是跟大家講說年輕人有哪些優惠你可能不知道我不知道因為我不是理財專家"},{"start":8188.783,"end":8211.424,"text":"那我跟你講有哪些的優惠就這樣子而已阿跟現在有什麼不一樣勒確實我覺得資產管理教育是很重要的我想齁我們先建立一個制度未來我剛才也提到說我們一定要有實際的績效以後我們才能夠跟比如說要求這個比如說其他稅賦的這些因為我覺得這個社會要考慮到非常非常這個齁你就是在財政部財政部面前你就投降了啦"},{"start":8211.904,"end":8212.785,"text":"李坤臣委員講的跟我的想法一樣"},{"start":8235.049,"end":8244.371,"text":"你講得很好你講得很好亞洲資產中心財政部這是賴總統的政見要一起努力賴司保委員謝謝主席 請各位先進有請金管委的彭主委彭主委啊委員好主委你好"},{"start":8265.714,"end":8287.591,"text":"原來大家都覺得你很專業嘞今天一來的話變成你很政治嘞不要讓人家瞧不起喔你還不知道我問你在哪裡先不要急著回答謝謝這個 剛才你回答啊這個說把地哥設高雄基國嘞高基國這設高雄高雄有什麼條件啊你告訴我"},{"start":8288.351,"end":8314.827,"text":"就是因為賴總統講的南部你要討好賴清德啊這個你不要把專業弄掉讓人家瞧不起你喔其實真的沒有真的就是我剛才跟那個報告因為他這個他們已經在過去兩三年來就已經真的這個跟一家金融機構兩三年來台北市不是做了更多新北市也做了更多雙北當然現在有錢人都在雙北啊不是嗎請問你是不是"},{"start":8315.347,"end":8337.257,"text":"因為我們現在所有的銀行的金融的服務機構總機構都在北部居多所以這邊的服務應該是有的所以很清楚看得到啊你要做這個來我給你個數字啊你可以看啊我們的規模很小啊請問你請問你你今天講的亞洲資產管理中心呢最早哪一個總統提過"},{"start":8340.373,"end":8367.807,"text":"這個資產管理中心我想過去有很多的名字以前比如說金融中心、運動中心哪一個總統提過我問你啊你都沒有讀一下啊今天人家一定問你這個啊2000年一年陳水扁就說了要把臺灣打造成為亞洲資產管理中心跟你講的一模一樣啊2020蔡英文總統還說要把臺灣打造為亞洲高階資產管理中心"},{"start":8369.197,"end":8387.092,"text":"陸續都有總統提出來啊為什麼到現在為止鼓鼓鼓不怎麼樣為什麼啊就簡單的你可以看啊臺灣的規模這麼小2500億啊人家你看香港的多少新加坡多少從這個數字就可以看得到"},{"start":8388.445,"end":8406.882,"text":"這也是我們要努力的地方我們的國民財富所以你根本就那麼偏方向啊從高雄開始怎麼會把高雄開始去做你這個事情跟委員報告高雄那個計畫只是我們其中計畫的一個實驗區你剛才不是喔你剛才旗艦計畫就是高雄嗎我沒有講這個旗艦計畫就是高雄不是我說是一個示範區示範區你講高雄港臺北有臺北港新北"},{"start":8414.289,"end":8441.965,"text":"我們也歡迎我們也歡迎各個地方政府什麼歡迎各個你規劃中你就規劃錯了你這個資產管理當然就是要找一個地方是一定是這個最自由的這個行政處是最好的搞一個高雄高雄不是不好啦沒有任何的意見你要弄高雄台北港啊新北市有台北港啊對不對你知道自由貿易港區有幾個嗎"},{"start":8443.247,"end":8466.963,"text":"這是交通部主政的地方你也不知道?你還說歐美港?那你去高雄港或自由貿易港去喔不要忘了桃園機場就是一個航空城就是一個自由貿易港區這些未來 未來其實各地方政府剛剛提過就是我們是參考日本各個地方政府拿出他自己的特色你滴到下錯了啦 主委啊"},{"start":8468.284,"end":8469.505,"text":"報告委員．可以看看嘛我們現在來講的話"},{"start":8497.367,"end":8525.981,"text":"你知不知道我們的資產管理佔GDP的比重臺灣比重多少我們對於資產管理的因為我們臺灣來來來我問你你們金管會的資料表格我現在沒有列出來這個資產管理佔GDP比重多少你告訴我我們現在是統計齁因為臺灣多少多少欸沒有先跟我們報告一下金管會的人趕快把資料給他你們金管會的資料我們我們資產管理因為臺灣每一個資產管理業齁假設你以投信的基金的話我們大概9兆嘛國內基金大概9兆"},{"start":8526.681,"end":8526.881,"text":"資產管理佔GDP多少?"},{"start":8544.112,"end":8545.273,"text":"日本的資產管理占GDP110%"},{"start":8560.638,"end":8579.327,"text":"香港1066%新加坡815%這個數字是金管會奇怪金管會你們會去要整頓一下你們的人怎麼你的組織在上面裸難沒有人在提供資料奇怪勒這個資料金管會的資料勒"},{"start":8581.136,"end":8604.333,"text":"經國會的資料怎麼你都沒有呢旁邊我再講一遍資產管理佔GDP的比例臺灣40%日本110%香港1066%新加坡815%這是你們經國會的資料我打出來的啊我都比你用功你看到底下的你看到現在為止還沒有資料給你喔"},{"start":8605.563,"end":8607.309,"text":"啊 奇怪的話都沒有人來護照你要過去整頓你現在他們瞧不起你欺負你喔"},{"start":8612.67,"end":8638.606,"text":"主委其實沒有這回事啦因為我們知道各個國家要整頓一下要整頓一下像比如香港跟新加坡最近都超過4兆啦那我想台灣確實是只有假設以頭信來看只有0.3兆元這裡都有數字啦你可以看到2023年這個香港差不多4兆啊新加坡差不多4兆啊資料都有欸我的資料都金管會的資料"},{"start":8639.326,"end":8642.747,"text":"這個報告委員這是公會的統計不是金管會金管會並沒有因為臺灣沒有一個資產管理委員這也是為什麼我們要努力的地方因為臺灣"},{"start":8667.375,"end":8670.876,"text":"其實並沒有說旗艦是高雄我剛才跟委員報告很多次任何一個臺灣的這個城市我覺得都非常的歡迎來加入這個資產管理中心的籌碼"},{"start":8697.822,"end":8720.05,"text":"這比賽啦 這個東西 主委啊補財員的說你很專業一下 看起來不專業 很政治可是謝謝委員指正 確實不是這樣專業一點啦 不要政治啦請問你啊 虛擬貨幣是不是你管的虛擬貨幣我們現在在洗錢的部分呢 是我們來處理第三方支付水管的 你知道嗎訴發部那這兩個承載一起水管"},{"start":8725.331,"end":8751.6,"text":"虛擬資產現在有關洗錢的部分確實是根據洗房辦法裡面是由我們來你現在來講現在這兩個combine在一起就是虛擬貨幣plus第三方支付這裡面就可以混在一起所以漲幣不法的錢混幣混合的金管會有人力管嗎請問你我們現在就是依法在辦理中我們現在比如說我們在做那個"},{"start":8753.144,"end":8755.206,"text":"現在有張幣混幣透過第三方支付或者遊戲幣兌現你要怎麼管理 請問"},{"start":8775.447,"end":8787.586,"text":"我們現在透過那個VASP他們成立一個工會以後他們現在正在制定他們的自立規範特別針對這一塊的部分呢他們在自立規範會出來那我們的專法要到明年6月才會送行政院"},{"start":8789.497,"end":8793.999,"text":"現在就是按照洗錢防治法及這個辦法在規定難怪我們的詐騙特別是金融詐騙層出不窮來我們看看主委啊你看看喔"},{"start":8809.025,"end":8837.101,"text":"人家統計出來金融的老百姓的素養不足成為詐騙的溫床儘管會是幫兇這個呢金融宣導號稱呼召率百分之百結果我們的金融素養不足八成不足你看我去年度的詐騙前三名第一名投資詐騙你看到得勝數排名"},{"start":8840.16,"end":8864.813,"text":"這個確實你先不要請第二個金額、排名、發生數也是投資詐騙金額也是投資詐騙60.2都是第一名查第二名查有夠多假網拍你看第二名在9.6%第一名就60.2%這個裡面看得出來就是金融詐騙最嚴重金融詐騙金管委是幫兇金管委你沒有教導好"},{"start":8868.959,"end":8889.972,"text":"那其實這樣的說法不是很公平啊很公平非常公平那我告訴你你看一下這個為什麼為什麼請問你有沒有加入金融素養跨國調查金管會有沒有有沒有答案是沒有啦我跟你講我當然做功課沒有啊"},{"start":8894.633,"end":8905.605,"text":"沒有加入OECD這個沒有加入這個跨國調查我們會明年會加入這個明年請問軍管會底下單位有沒有加入有沒有"},{"start":8906.004,"end":8934.233,"text":"就是我們平益中心平益中心已經加入跟機關會機關這樣頭輕腳重啊平益中心都知道重要要加入儘管會不加入難怪難怪你看到前面人家看到金融素養全民這麼糟不是因為OECD我們政府機關沒辦法加入我們只能透過平益中心加入你看IMD啦齁GFCI剛才尤其是GFCI啦齁IFCI啦齁你再前面一點再前面一張再前面一張"},{"start":8936.511,"end":8949.757,"text":"這個GFCI 全球金融中心之數IFCI 國際金融中心之數這些評比臺灣都以國家的地位參與調查"},{"start":8953.117,"end":8966.886,"text":"我們都被調查了啊那為什麼金管會不能夠參與我就不知道為什麼不是剛剛OECD那個啦那個我們政府所以我們才會請那個評議中心加入那你不是矛盾你說明年度就可以加入了所以就是參與這個的調查對就是請評議中心那邊來參與這個調查"},{"start":8972.745,"end":8974.887,"text":"那我們現在第幾名啊?如果評議中心有的話?我們現在第幾名?"},{"start":8995.145,"end":9006.158,"text":"沒有排名呢!跟委員報告他這個其實沒有排名他這個金融素養調查的部分他是瞭解各個國家自己本身裡面針對這個金融素養的狀況"},{"start":9008.898,"end":9026.712,"text":"現在人家就看到了嘛就你的金融宣導到處跟人家講多做多做一百趴然後呢八成金融素養不夠這是人家調查的臺灣金融生活調查你可以看到差不多七成九"},{"start":9028.853,"end":9039.077,"text":"對,這個金融教育這個我們一定會持續再來努力因為這個畢竟詐騙是國人之痛我想我們也都知道這部分我們有關金融素養的部分我們還是不管怎麼樣我們還是要持續的強化"},{"start":9041.311,"end":9069.173,"text":"好不好我解釋我的質詢就是跟你強調你要S&M Management你要從雙北開始什麼高雄然後再過來你可以看啊這個唉這個這裡面牽涉到很多詐騙的問題因為資產管理弄得好就資產管理弄不好就洗錢了對謝謝對吧他就是一線之隔合法的就是資產管理不合法的就是洗錢"},{"start":9070.39,"end":9070.911,"text":"我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":9103.556,"end":9106.88,"text":"字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":9695.489,"end":9725.042,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會我們有請顏坤恆顏委員主席各位列席官員大家好主席我想請今晚會彭主委"},{"start":9726.044,"end":9726.625,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9735.259,"end":9752.311,"text":"主委推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心是賴總統提出的金融改革政見也是你擔任主委的施政重點在上個月你跟銀行局、保險局、政企局、工會、證交所等相關單位還有行政院經濟顧問跟"},{"start":9756.974,"end":9779.454,"text":"金融研究院共同舉辦高峰論壇正式啟動亞洲資產管理中心計畫對於這項政策提出的五大計畫而你也認為實現亞洲資產管理中心的願景需要天時、地利及人和兼備那我在這邊請教你幾個問題首先天時的部分你在會議中有提到臺灣經濟"},{"start":9780.979,"end":9801.422,"text":"反應條件已經跟20年前不同那有穩定的經濟充沛的銀行存款受選業的資產以及資本市場也具有國際競爭力跟影響力那具優勢的產業高成長財管規模及基金規模等七大天使這些我都不否認"},{"start":9802.563,"end":9829.906,"text":"本席認為這個天時的部分我們還要去考量現在國內的經濟環境是穩定的但是從政治環境去思考要成為亞洲資產管理中心先決條件是要有一個長期穩定的政治環境讓投資者相信臺灣的內外環境安全可靠不至於動輒風聲鶴唳危及投資但我們都清楚10月14號中共才派125架"},{"start":9831.607,"end":9858.193,"text":"加持軍機繞臺,把臺灣包圍起來演習昨院長也說,這樣的動作對整個區域的和平穩定帶來相當大的影響另外,教育部先前通知高中以上學校發放青年扶勤同意書徵詢學生扶勤的意願,上面註明根據全民防衛動員準備法以及配合地方政府學校青年扶勤"},{"start":9861.212,"end":9889.445,"text":"的需求在不影響學生學業的原則下參加學校青年服勤那因為被罵到臭頭所以停止了但這樣的舉動引起了家長的恐慌認為自己的小孩未來可能都要上戰場在這樣的區域緊張的氣氛之下你認為要如何能夠讓投資者讓企業讓民眾相信臺灣是可以成功的成為亞洲資產管理中心再來"},{"start":9890.766,"end":9914.758,"text":"地利方面香港、新加坡作為亞洲兩大金融中心有著稅賦、語言及外匯的優勢但你也提到臺灣必須找出自己的定位跟特色並不是取代其他國家也不是要複製其他國家的規模我很贊同你的說法只有發展出自己的特色自己的經營模式這項政策才能夠長久跟穩定"},{"start":9915.919,"end":9933.285,"text":"同樣也能夠讓人家相信臺灣是有資格成為亞洲資產管理中心具有穩定的經濟及積蓄期的財富然而我認為這不算是一項特色這應該是一個必備的條件就如同我剛剛說到的穩定才能讓人幸福才能長久"},{"start":9934.105,"end":9952.261,"text":"在特色的方面我認為臺灣的科技業跟半導體產業是我們最大的利器也是一項無人能敵的特色但我們要思考的是要如何讓這些產業這些資金留在臺灣讓大家相信臺灣然後資金人才都會留下來這個是才讓臺灣"},{"start":9955.6,"end":9965.65,"text":"成為一個有願景的一個大家的理想的一個投資的國度你認為我國除了這些科技業半導體產業還有什麼跟香港新加坡"},{"start":9966.974,"end":9990.186,"text":"不同的特色跟優勢你可不可以說明好 謝謝 謝謝委員剛才的內容真的很敬佩對過去我們所提出的內容都做了非常非常多的資料的收集跟非常精準的評論我想剛才委員有提到兩點特別關注就是有關我們怎麼樣面對這些我們所面臨到的政治環境的困難如何克服"},{"start":9990.826,"end":10011.355,"text":"第二,除了科技和半導體的優勢,還有其他優勢嗎?我先從後面這個問題來跟委員做說明。第一,確實臺灣在過去,尤其在最近10年來,在這些特定產業上的世界領導地位,確實讓我們整個的投資臺灣成為一個非常重要的亮點。"},{"start":10017.4,"end":10033.837,"text":"提到臺灣有非常多的財富這些財富卻沒有在臺灣被我們的金融產業做好好的管理非常可惜這可能會讓我們喪失很多比如說高階人才的工作機會以及我們怎麼樣利用這些"},{"start":10035.138,"end":10057.472,"text":"這個非常珍貴的財富資本能夠投注在臺灣創造另外更多優勢產業的機會我想這一點的話就是我覺得這一點第二個優勢就是我們臺灣有非常豐沛的這些的財富這些我們應該好好而且這很多是大部分在海外我想這部分如果可以透過這個制度來引回或是做一個運用的話我想是一個"},{"start":10058.328,"end":10075.59,"text":"再就是臺灣在過去這一段子隨著我們資本市場的發展其實臺灣在整個投資動能跟整個投資的意願以及對於未來資產管理的需求我覺得都在增加中而且非常明顯的增加這也是我們在發展這個事情非常重要的一個優勢"},{"start":10076.691,"end":10095.531,"text":"剛剛提到相較於新加坡跟香港以資金運轉跟引入外資為主的金融中心確實台灣在這個條件相對是比較沒有但是我剛才講說我們有他們沒有就是我們有非常多元有競爭力的產業這是新加坡香港沒有的所以我們才會用這個角度來思考"},{"start":10096.392,"end":10115.571,"text":"當然委員提到說確實地緣政治是不是我們完全能可控的但是如果說我們來發展這個金融中心吸引更多的國外或本國的資金特別是國外的資金進來的時候那臺灣也相對會更安全當然這是一個非常艱鉅的挑戰但是我們還是要努力"},{"start":10116.972,"end":10139.823,"text":"主委就剛剛你提到說如何把財富引回臺灣這個問題就地利的接下來我跟你講人和的部分那你強調說要成為亞洲資產管理中心不僅僅是金管會的事情是跨部會的工作對不對那我也贊同你的說法那如何能夠部會之間公私協力不是只有公部門的努力"},{"start":10140.863,"end":10162.05,"text":"市部門的部份也要一同合作才能夠達成亞洲資產管理中心的目標那先決條件就是我們要營造出一個讓人願意合作的環境對不對是的那個今晚會顧問就是國泰金控的李總也特別提出說臺灣不是臺灣的有錢人不愛臺灣是法令的規範讓有錢人不能愛臺灣"},{"start":10167.573,"end":10196.033,"text":"那以家族傳承辦公室為例目前國內的信託法規定在同一個這個戶口名簿上才能成為受益人但是國外沒有這項規定啊所以受限於法規那個臺灣有錢人只好跑到新加坡或香港去處理資產那這方面金管會有沒有考慮跟相關的部會做討論如何讓臺灣人讓臺灣的有錢人願意把資產留在臺灣接下來我在說金管會力拼打造臺灣資產管理中心將"},{"start":10196.934,"end":10215.142,"text":"你剛提到的流財還有引資嘛這兩個部分那希望打造出投資臺灣支持臺灣產業發展成為核心的資產管理中心那我要請教這個主委五大計畫當中包含了一項是研議金融特區的可行性那"},{"start":10216.102,"end":10232.452,"text":"這個金融特區設立的目的可以在特區內鬆綁相關管制法規放寬國際人員以及資金的流動放寬外籍專業人士來臺工作還有聘用的這個限制做這些部分我想要跟主委提"},{"start":10233.488,"end":10255.87,"text":"臺中作為人口第二多的城市地理位置適中不管是南來北往都很方便有沒有考量金融特區設立在臺中本縣希望說金融特區可以考量在臺中的部分那不管設立在哪裡我要提醒你們就是說相關的法規鬆綁放寬投資人才方面的限制甚至是沙盒實驗的進行"},{"start":10257.011,"end":10277.931,"text":"都要多聽取這種專業人士、國內企業、利害關係人的意見才能夠讓整個政策更完善、全面才能夠更理想地達成目標是是不是謝謝剛剛委員提到那個三大點都是非常重要的那首先先針對第一大點回應就是公司協力的部分確實這不是只有金管會也不是只有政府的事情"},{"start":10278.547,"end":10299.544,"text":"那比如說像我們在推動的時候我們結合了三大產業工會還有比如說四大證券周邊單位以及相關的這些工協會都一起努力所以委員有注意到我們9月10號的時候幾乎他們全部出席而且提出了他們的因應的配合的方案我想公司協力是未來很重要的點謝謝委員的指正在有關的信託法修正呢我有跟政部長討論過這件事情"},{"start":10301.145,"end":10324.668,"text":"我們會持續的來去請法務部來協商針對這個有關信託法有沒有辦法針對所謂我們這個家族信託還有就是所謂我們的百年信託這樣的條文能夠做一些放寬再來就是有關那個專區的部分我剛剛也有跟委員報告過我們非常歡迎各個地方政府能夠提出他們各個地方的特色來跟我們資產管理中心做結合"},{"start":10325.268,"end":10325.949,"text":"黃珊珊委員"},{"start":10353.775,"end":10379.627,"text":"現在主席我想請彭主委還有央行請主委然後財政部以及政交所政交所請董事長還是總經理兩位嗎政交所林董事長總經理是李總經理兩位嗎董事長政交所謝謝"},{"start":10384.062,"end":10404.887,"text":"委員好是主委還有各位首長我想今天有幾個問題那第一個就是主委有看到我在禮拜二的質詢總質詢的時候跟院長請命希望在國發基金裡面有非常非常多未來的幾支箭那金融科技新創也是"},{"start":10406.221,"end":10421.228,"text":"賴清德總統他重要的政見推動亞洲金融科技創新中心那這些籌資的金額相關的費用我們希望院長能夠支持金融科技新創所以院長講得很清楚只要計畫周延"},{"start":10422.341,"end":10446.972,"text":"只要財力庫單可以他就願意推動第5支建那現在看起來國內的金控公司對於轉投資的部分做新創的部分除了凱基金以外其實其他的金控興趣缺缺所以院長已經同意了只要有計畫就願意來匡列從文化部文化創意產業然後國發基金有智慧健康產業"},{"start":10448.192,"end":10476.388,"text":"術法部已經要到了AI新創基金環境部正在爭取百億的綠色成長基金主委我想問問你什麼時候要提案謝謝委員對金融科技的支持也感謝院長這個正面回歸剛才國發會張副主委也有提到就是說希望我們來提出這個計畫是我們會其實我們在過去其實針對這個部分我沒有我只有跟你要求時間就好了你年底你能不能像那個"},{"start":10477.469,"end":10480.892,"text":"接下來是今天很清楚就是金管會現在的金融科技我看到你們要成立一個處是嗎"},{"start":10500.518,"end":10523.158,"text":"是的,我們在因為已經行政院合併我們現在正在籌備已經編了800多萬的預算是有這個野心請問這個處要做什麼這個處呢我們下面分成這個四個科第一個科叫做創新一科第二創新二科專門做創新實驗還有就剛才講未來金融科技的促進所以我想成立這些處是很好的事但是我覺得他們的功能跟人力可能還是不夠你接下來要管"},{"start":10524.13,"end":10524.15,"text":"好嗎?"},{"start":10550.418,"end":10577.001,"text":"只是一個處大概做不了這麼多事如果金融科技局包括剛剛講的新創基金包括你即將要列管的虛擬資產電子支付、融資公司這些其實都需要人力跟物力只有一個處應該做不到確實我們未來很多的新業務確實我們在人力上面以及經費上面確實要有一些新的想法我希望有機會在主委現在主政的情況下去跟行政院"},{"start":10577.481,"end":10600.641,"text":"跟一樣啊,體育部正在做編制所以趁現在可能有機會可以爭取得到,好嗎?謝謝委員的關心,謝謝好,接下來我請各位幾位上來的原因主要是因為今天的題目叫做亞洲資產管理中心主委,我們現在在109年蔡英文總統曾經宣誓也要打造高階資產管理中心現在又再講一次是以前做不好還是做不到"},{"start":10602.103,"end":10621.497,"text":"我想剛才講說其實立正的有什麼不一樣我覺得這是更全面性更普及的不限於高階我們是希望帶動各個金融產業這是銀行、證券、保險、投資、投庫只要是資產管理中心我們就是希望所有的錢都留在臺灣那留在臺灣的問題就在於是不是自由是不是方便對吧"},{"start":10622.368,"end":10647.711,"text":"當然臺灣有很多的當你說投資臺灣是否有足夠的投資工具多樣化的投資工具滿足這種需求而且要讓他在這邊調度方便那現在的問題就在於我們有幾個問題今天我要問的是學者在財經一些學者是說外匯管制500萬的美元限定每年每人每年32年沒有檢討所以央行這個部分的規定"},{"start":10648.391,"end":10675.961,"text":"如果要做資產管理中心這個部分32年了要不要討論一下外資應該沒有影響現在是個人的部分報告委員第一個我對他用外匯管制來強調這個問題其實是有爭議的沒關係每人每年500萬美金的部分可不可以做調整我提供您兩個數據做參考我的時間有限我只是說32年了要不要調整一下"},{"start":10677.081,"end":10699.231,"text":"我先報告數據讓您知道就是說其實我們這些限制並沒有影響到我們一般的操作所以不影響不調整是嗎不是因為我們知道還沒有用到那個額度嘛還不到嘛所以我們希望能夠擴充到時候你再來檢討好嗎第二個部分是臺股交易的制度主委我們現在有一個臺股交易的"},{"start":10701.232,"end":10715.303,"text":"國際的趨勢美國開始已經實施T加1的結算交割那我們也在研究T加1的部分一一二年我們證交所已經做了相關的評估來證交所你們評估的狀況怎麼樣我們會朝向這個國際的趨勢嗎"},{"start":10719.227,"end":10733.759,"text":"跟委員報告那這個趨勢基本上現在是美國加拿大在用那事實上來講歐洲事實上也開始在研究那臺灣我們現在狀況基本上來講我的意思是說要做"},{"start":10734.7,"end":10762.916,"text":"所謂的資產管理中心這個可能也是其中一個項目是沒錯第三個部分證交所還有一個問題我們查過大概歐美的證券交易的時間大概都是6小時到8小時那亞洲大概比較低那臺灣只贏過中國我們4.5個小時那日本最近是5個小時還要再加半個小時這個可能也是不是可能跟資金調度或者是臺股交易可以增加外資的進展是不是也要做一些檢討"},{"start":10763.596,"end":10789.092,"text":"如果我們要做亞洲的資產管理中心的話這個部分來講的話我們當然都會事實上我們的交易時間也一直都在跟我們的證券商在做檢討我覺得這三個問題就是第一個500萬的部分第二個T加1第三個證券交易的時間如果我們要做亞洲資產管理中心我希望一併來做相關的檢討也給本席一個你們規劃或者是將來可能會做的一些調整可以"},{"start":10789.372,"end":10815.294,"text":"我覺得這是因為我看到金管會跟央行也非常有野心我們希望能夠成為所謂的把錢留在臺灣我們也希望錢真的進臺灣但是你要夠自由、夠方便這個也是我相信對我們的國人來說我們長期以來錢都在國外我們希望他們回來那就要有足夠的工具有足夠的方便讓更多的人願意把錢留在臺灣"},{"start":10817.603,"end":10835.711,"text":"這三個問題就麻煩各位首長大概一個月之內給我一個初步的檢討方向接下來還是要請彭主委所以我們現在發生了一件事就是在2019年有一個義大利從事汽車註定的人跑到臺灣來奪了"},{"start":10837.659,"end":10850.313,"text":"五年然後最近被國際行行組織的西班牙籍的男子發現我們現在臺灣的已經成為罪犯金盆洗手的退休天堂這件事情有點可怕"},{"start":10852.56,"end":10869.491,"text":"這個偷氣飯其實現在這個新聞才出來但是其實他在2019年就已經到臺灣來而且2019年的時候他老婆已經開了很多家公司有5家的公司都是用他的名字主委我們不是應該有所謂的銀行KYC嗎"},{"start":10871.474,"end":10887.322,"text":"對但是這個時間他也開了餐廳也開了公司但是現在看起來我們在國際形勢司法互助上面我們是個孤兒目前還沒有司法互助但是我們一直是洗錢防治機構的會員國不是嗎"},{"start":10889.207,"end":10905.159,"text":"是,我們在洗錢房子的部分在上一輪評鑑我們確實是得到蠻多的肯定是,所以這個案子現在已經出來了他擔任臺灣公司五家公司的負責人我相信只要他成為負責人他應該都會用到我們的金融服務"},{"start":10905.879,"end":10923.375,"text":"除非他完全不開戶除非他只去財政部買發票其他什麼銀行都不往來我覺得不太可能所以這個案子我們金管會有沒有繼續去清查銀行在這端有沒有做過相關的風險評估或者是重新做KYC的調查"},{"start":10932.342,"end":10944.167,"text":"這個案子我希望金管會查一查因為為什麼我們透過相關的單位去了解之後我們發現了一件很有趣的事其實這個案這個人在2019年就已經有了負面報導"},{"start":10945.367,"end":10954.98,"text":"也就是他2019年已經有這個新聞在國際間已經有消息只要他在開戶的時候2019年那時候開戶的時候有做過相關的所謂的風險情報資料庫去調查去確認在國際上有沒有負面新聞"},{"start":10962.89,"end":10963.911,"text":"本國銀行對特別是外國人開戶警戒性應該會更好"},{"start":10986.352,"end":11011.181,"text":"國際形勢調查的一些顧問但是我們是洗錢防治的會員所以洗錢防治這個個案我希望主委從今天開始至少在臺灣所有外國人開戶我們不是說所有人的問題只要進去這個資料庫再double check一次也許就可以找到更多這種所謂的國外的罪犯躲在臺灣而且我們竟然毫不知情"},{"start":11011.561,"end":11011.901,"text":"對,謝謝文提供這個訊息我想應該是"},{"start":11037.574,"end":11038.294,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員接著我們請伍麗華委員"},{"start":11075.699,"end":11099.376,"text":"謝謝主席有請金管會主委請彭主委那另外也會問到財政部處參司中央銀行國發會處參司同副師長中央銀行原副總裁國發會專副主委謝謝要讓他們起來運動一下打前場"},{"start":11100.996,"end":11128.977,"text":"委員好主委您好今天我們安排亞洲資產管理中心來一起做討論其實我們也都引頸期盼這除了是賴總統的一個政見相信未來也會是您很重要的一個政績我們也相信你會盡全力的來把它做好所以有一些問題還有一些疑慮就想要請教大家"},{"start":11130.179,"end":11131.863,"text":"首先我們確實看到臺灣2024年的超額儲蓄率高達16.7%"},{"start":11139.81,"end":11164.81,"text":"那這也就是說它是高達4.21兆那已經有連續4年我們看到數據我們的超額儲蓄呢是站穩3兆元又首度衝破4兆成為歷史新高再再都顯示我們國內的閒置資金確實是很多而且呢根據安聯全球財富報告"},{"start":11165.931,"end":11183.326,"text":"在2022年底每一位臺灣人平均擁有的淨資產是新台幣479萬當然這個可能也顯示我們的貧富差距很大但是畢竟它在全球最富有國家當中它是名列第五"},{"start":11183.906,"end":11210.791,"text":"所以這些客觀的數據也都讓我們覺得說對呀臺灣確實是應該有這樣的潛力能力能夠做一個亞洲資產管理中心但是我們也有很多的疑問因為剛上路而且呢臨近的其他國家也都已經做得很好那我不曉得說這個部分就是想要先請教主委我們最主要的目標就是要把"},{"start":11211.291,"end":11213.994,"text":"我想我先從這個後面的問題先回答起"},{"start":11231.753,"end":11257.446,"text":"那過去是因為就以保險業資金來講因為保險業過去因為他所收的保費是有預定利率的這些負債成本所以他必須在國外找到比他超過他成本的那個資產投資那國外的債券呢就提供很好的這個問題但是最近幾年因為美國的這個升息導致他的投資的風險增加再來就是因為導致這個避險成本很高"},{"start":11258.166,"end":11281.333,"text":"那也相對的會影響到他的資本市主力所以最近呢他們會比較多的意願想把這個錢投資在臺灣對那到底有什麼更好的金融商品現在他們在做的像比如說可以看得出來比較明顯像我們這個綠能相關的投資綠能是好投資對還有就像比如說他們現在開始做一些國內一些所謂的專案的BOTBOT哪一種BOT案"},{"start":11281.913,"end":11283.954,"text":"所以目前我們都有看到有一些資金引流回來投資在這些地方"},{"start":11305.762,"end":11305.882,"text":"那老師談到"},{"start":11324.07,"end":11348.283,"text":"臺灣的公共建設那請問臺灣的公共建設也可以成為好的投資商品嗎?會熱絡嗎?其實這個牽涉到很多比較假設從我們金管會的角度來思考這個問題的話因為保險業他投資他有一定的比如說穩定的現金流一定的報酬率這是他一定的條件我們現在很多的公建確實有這樣的一個條件"},{"start":11350.004,"end":11351.185,"text":"謝謝主委我想問一下處參司"},{"start":11378.718,"end":11395.668,"text":"我們處參司是副司長副司長您好因為我們一直提到長照事業長照事業那我就想要請教一下處參司你們目前為止有什麼樣的具體作為嗎有什麼案子在推動嗎"},{"start":11397.53,"end":11413.509,"text":"報告委員那首先長照裡面本來就是我們促參可以做的公共建設項目我想知道目前有什麼但我們最近其實我們在每一年的這個商機座談每一年的招商大會我們這幾年都有把長照的部分作為一個專屬的項目結果呢"},{"start":11415.19,"end":11441.624,"text":"對那目前我們其實也在輔導各個地方的政府那漸漸的也會有一些成果出現那譬如說我們臺北市我們知道他已經在做這個秀山的長照園區那我們財政部也會在臺北市是那目前譬如說臺南的部分那還有高雄的部分臺南市、高雄市對都是都會地區嘛是那我請教您喔我們常常長照2.0、1.0到3.0"},{"start":11444.585,"end":11467.405,"text":"最被詬病的就是原鄉偏鄉失能老人的照護做得最不好就是政府投注這麼多的錢但是始終沒有辦法解決失能老人原偏鄉失能老人的問題他們沒有地方可以送政府也不做我們也沒有能力到都會地區也沒有能力到私人機構"},{"start":11469.046,"end":11494.554,"text":"阿所以促參斯的長照事業有在往這個方向去努力積極推動嗎?是跟委員報告目前我們當然在積極輔導各個地方政府如果他們有提出相關的案源我們都會予以補助讓他們可以在政府的支持下自己花比較少的錢去進行可行性研究那我們後續也會進行輔導幫協助他們招商所以就是看地方政府來提案是"},{"start":11495.054,"end":11520.14,"text":"好 謝謝那再請教一下國發會因為今年5月在財政委員會也有排了這個國發會書面報告就請教一下因為國發會就有聽到說就增加促參紅利擴增受險業投資誘因等等面向那想要請教一下國發會目前做得如何因為已經過了半年"},{"start":11521.052,"end":11537.095,"text":"是跟委員報告那這樣子的一個構想我們已經在提到那個行政院的經濟發展委員會裡面那具體的方案10月7號也報行政院了那相關的工作譬如說院的層級想知道什麼叫具體的方案"},{"start":11537.756,"end":11538.416,"text":"為什麼我這樣子問因為我們看一下"},{"start":11553.004,"end":11568.047,"text":"像過去我在教育文化委員會我們有推動這個文化藝術講注及促進條例文獎條例的一個修法就是希望說香港過去他在藝術品的一個拍賣"},{"start":11569.008,"end":11598.049,"text":"他其實是居亞洲之冠也是全球的中心但是呢慢慢的外移到新加坡所以我們也希望說能夠把他吸引到臺灣來所以呢我們就把這個課徵所得稅的部分去做了修法增加這個誘因所以再請教一下金管會主委中央銀行就是這個部分因為我們的臺幣畢竟不是國際通用的貨幣所以我們也會在想誰會想來上市啊"},{"start":11598.749,"end":11613.579,"text":"那這個外匯管制呢到底有沒有要鬆綁那如何鬆綁因為這個債債法規的部分其實也會影響到我們整個中芯未來的一個運作面向所以想要請教一下央行副總裁請"},{"start":11616.356,"end":11632.786,"text":"首先因為臺灣這種經濟體系我們對匯率的穩定是非常重要那其實我們過去幾年我們一個原則就是只要是外幣對外幣我們是完全沒有管制但是外幣兌換新臺幣部分我們在於"},{"start":11634.087,"end":11634.727,"text":"好,就是願意來配合"},{"start":11660.242,"end":11668.809,"text":"我們這個亞洲資產管理中心有沒有包含中國有沒有包含中資我想這部分我們會配合國家政策來做同步的處理"},{"start":11670.038,"end":11671.199,"text":"目前國家的態度?"},{"start":11689.521,"end":11699.649,"text":"我們對這個是有限制有在討論所以還是有限制那像那種這種如果外國投資他有含中資呢"},{"start":11701.194,"end":11725.76,"text":"這個的話就是我們會特別來考慮但就是說這是一個整個對國家資金移動比如說我們假設像經濟部的投審會他們會對這個做一些審查還有像比如說假設他是一個金融機構要投資到我們這邊的話我們自己也會有一套審查那如果這樣說因為外資進來他其實也會考量到我們的兩岸關係那這個部分是有想到要怎麼克服嗎"},{"start":11726.861,"end":11751.384,"text":"這個確實是我們在國際情勢上面他對臺灣的印象會產生一些這樣的看法不過我們就是盡量的就是用一些我們真正的投資機會來解決這個問題因為畢竟我想資本他在全世界這個投資的時候有各種不同的考量剛剛地緣政治的安全是其中一個那是否有長期獲利投資的機會還是一個他很重要的考慮"},{"start":11752.044,"end":11775.53,"text":"我想這些部分都是因為我們從很多的客觀數據我們可以看到確實我們有這個潛力也有這個能力作為亞洲很棒的一個資產管理中心但是呢我們也因為地緣政治種種很多的因素包括法規面向等等其實在在也都會影響這個中心未來的一個營運成果所以呢我們很希望就是儘管會在這個地方"},{"start":11776.05,"end":11776.07,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":11794.873,"end":11824.153,"text":"就目前來看是差很遠但是我們剛起步我們要開始做那我們也希望未來能夠快速的超越那能夠把這個中心做好那這個部分人才的培育未來我們的地點的選定那怎麼樣去做一個資產管理人才的培訓等等我想這個面向很多很廣啦也沒有辦法在今天一次問完但是就這個部分我希望至少金管會能不能在一個月以內"},{"start":11824.753,"end":11825.093,"text":"主席委員好"},{"start":11852.56,"end":11866.639,"text":"主委好你們今晚會我看您的這個決心不錯那也有一點行動力那現在我看有如火如荼要做到兩年有感然後讓臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心這個"},{"start":11868.64,"end":11896.471,"text":"這個計畫已經講了幾十年的計畫好像感覺有一點機會不過我感覺可能在這個你面臨最大的挑戰我看我們立委部分聽很多立委的這個質詢我們立委是這樣對法令的鬆綁還有這個政策方面我們都是相當支持的但是我感覺你一個人剛剛看我看賴委員在質詢的時候你這個有問題的話後面的這個下面的相關單位沒有上來協助提供資料我覺得這個你"},{"start":11897.071,"end":11910.705,"text":"面臨最大的挑戰可能不是來自於我們這些外部不是我們這是賴總統的政策這沒有問題我看比較大的挑戰可能是你的先進的頭腦要幫忙你這個相關的我們這個官僚體系要打開頭腦這個要open"},{"start":11912.447,"end":11912.647,"text":"臺灣財政委員會主席"},{"start":11934.904,"end":11960.445,"text":"也要來一起來跟上不然會非常非常的辛苦我們立法院當然是站在支持的立場那你在書面報告中提到說為了協助金融科技及新創業者籌得充足持續的多元資金你要支持這個投資臺灣支持產業發展推動策略性投資項目那這些新的投資項目要對專業的投資人募集資金要怎麼做呢"},{"start":11962.678,"end":11982.723,"text":"這裡的話就剛剛有提到我們現在就是我們現在有上市櫃剛剛那個董事長在這邊就像我們提到的我們對這些真的要籌資的話當然如果能夠那個是上市櫃啊我們剛剛有提到我們剛剛有委員說到臺灣有98次中小企業啊然後那個"},{"start":11983.423,"end":11985.604,"text":"臺灣的詐騙這麼盛行其實也就是因為很多人沒有投資的管道"},{"start":12005.433,"end":12026.935,"text":"在比如說很多產業要有一些單位拿不到錢一些人有錢那這中間的一些我們一些不管金融機構也好或是相關的這些協助募資的單位是不是也沒有相應的這個相關的法令啊比照美國啊其他國家一樣進步的法令讓他們可以來做這個相關的這個資金的這個募集啊"},{"start":12027.675,"end":12044.34,"text":"這當然比說其他國家有更好的制度我們會來參採不過本國有他自己的限制剛剛委員提到我們對於這些中小企業或中小微企業我們在過去假如銀行端我們在長期的那個有關融資的資助剛剛經濟部也有講到你剛剛講是融資喔我說的是投資那是銀行融資是兩個議題喔"},{"start":12046.46,"end":12073.693,"text":"再來就是有關我們所監管的金控金融機構不管是銀行、保險公司都有創投的投資我想請問你我直接問你因為你沒有回答專業投資人是不是很多都放在國外比如新加坡、香港都有很多做這個什麼這個家族的辦公室很多專業經理人那我國的資產管理業者怎麼樣跟這些可以跟這些怎麼樣跟這些對象進行公開的募集"},{"start":12075.102,"end":12095.601,"text":"就是我們現在的話就是這些高淨值的客戶他有兩個選擇一個是假如說他要做財富管理的話那會選擇是由我們金融機構那如果說你要做資產管理的話就會跟我們的這些投資他可能會選擇比如說創投啦還有像比如說我們的PE啊這些還有投信公司PE是虱目嘛對對對"},{"start":12097.782,"end":12121.036,"text":"對就類似像這樣他有不同的管道可以從他這邊得到一個投資的機會你現在開放比如做資產管理中心外國的這些資產管理中心他們可以在因為外國的法律開放他們可以在外國募集資金對到臺灣來做相關的投資嘛這個沒問題嘛對不對但是我們本國呢本國的業者呢沒有辦法對外募資啊這是不是變成有不利的這個競爭地位啊"},{"start":12123.458,"end":12147.741,"text":"這個本國的投信公司他當然可以募集本國的基金對不對然後他也可以募集以後對海外銷售募集本國你是指比如說PE對不對不只但PE是他另外一個業務比如說他可以募集一般的基金這是對一些這個管道有管道的人那對很多投資大眾來講他沒有獲得這些訊息的管道啊也沒有這樣這個可以投資的方法那這個部分的落差你要怎麼補足呢"},{"start":12148.341,"end":12167.8,"text":"這個我們當然就是透過一些他們之間的銷售管理還有我們的教育訓練來做這些事情像比如說PE這些東西投資絕對不會是一般的專業投資人來做的比如說真的是一些已經成熟到可以上市櫃當然就一般人就可以投資前端的部分這樣就是要創造這麼多"},{"start":12172.865,"end":12195.95,"text":"所以在這個很專業的裡頭跟這個上市櫃那個也不用提那個也是已經到了很進步的那個階段那這中間一般的百姓除了去買這個基金做這樣的投資金融這個市場上的投資實際上如果一般的百姓想要參與很多新創事業的投資的時候他們是沒有投資管道的沒有不知道怎麼樣去獲得這個這時候就很多所以很多詐騙集團會產生嘛"},{"start":12198.31,"end":12218.499,"text":"對 這時候就是要 如果真的正當管道就要透過資產管理業者來做這些事情那這個法令的部分如果我們限制太嚴格的話你現在在做亞洲資產管理中心如果在法令的部分你的限制比國外的相關法令嚴格的話你就會限這些本國的業者跟外國的資產管理業者在不公平的競爭地位"},{"start":12218.979,"end":12240.029,"text":"當然就是資金是國際競爭的假設台灣的一些法規對這些資金相對是比較不便利或是不友善當然這個競爭力就會下降我們要變成亞洲資產管理中心資金也是國際競爭如果我們的法令比較不進步我們的政策比較不open當然不要說我們的地緣政治"},{"start":12240.789,"end":12256.838,"text":"這樣子臺灣怎麼變成亞洲這個資產管理中心這個確實我們今晚會很努力我們請同仁盤點一下我們大概兩年之內我們要鬆綁54個我們關聯的規定好 那我想請問今晚會哪一個單位每年都出國考察這個金融科技108年44萬109年到那個11年沒有出國110年25萬112年54萬113年46萬今年要這個預算數要增加到107萬了這些預算出國考察是哪個單位去做考察的"},{"start":12269.701,"end":12296.792,"text":"主要是我們創新中心我們中規處創新中心是中規處派員出國考察是嗎對就是開會或是看他的目的性質來派適當的人員出國比如說比如說像這些今年107萬是為哪個單位出國考察呢請我們處長說明一下這個是像今年的話我們是就是3月份的時候有去日本那不是去哪裡沒關係派哪些單位去我們金融會裡面哪些單位"},{"start":12297.72,"end":12298.341,"text":"其實我們在每年我們大概"},{"start":12322.95,"end":12333.92,"text":"發佈過我們的金融科技發展路徑圖1.0跟2.0我們就是很多是參考我們考察回來的結果沒關係你把這個相關的考察報告先提供給我我想請問在你們報告裡頭這個怎麼不寫這個股權期末的這個績效我上個會期就執行過了這個演繹民間版的創會機制金管會說104年開放證券商的經營這個"},{"start":12345.751,"end":12346.011,"text":"臺灣財政委員會主席"},{"start":12418.817,"end":12422.789,"text":"答案然後績效還是掛零對吧我再請問國發會"},{"start":12424.932,"end":12451.429,"text":"局長您聽到嗎?您知道我的意思嗎?政府是創造環境不是自己做然後做不好然後績效掛零你們工作實在量力也很大副主委請教這個臺灣新創產業的這個企業齁你們這個也支持新創產業嘛齁新創產業新增數逐年減少齁這個齁現在大概有7900家身為國發會你看看我們的那個數據齁這個Fintech那個的數據從20"},{"start":12454.611,"end":12462.053,"text":"2017年開始每年逐年下降從800多加800多到700多600多300多200100多到2024現在22加這個逐年檢討的主因是什麼跟委員報告第一個因為今年還沒到沒關係不算今年從87654321一直下降國發會不是很支持嗎這不是國家的政策嗎我們的支持力道一直沒有減弱但是為什麼一直下降"},{"start":12482.618,"end":12498.485,"text":"其實如果委員注意大概這幾年我覺得一方面可能跟大環境有關係大環境因為你有注意到21、22年這幾年比較少的是正好是疫情的關係那前幾年一直下降23開始就沒有疫情了22以後就沒有疫情了從200多要變100多家"},{"start":12499.73,"end":12515.945,"text":"其實如果注意的話其實前幾年大概都還維持在六七百家以上不要講總數嘛你們新創就是就是每年增加的價值哪有呢去年113去年已經沒有疫情囉不要騙我是是是為什麼你們在做什麼沒有"},{"start":12516.502,"end":12541.725,"text":"委員我們的政策其實一直都在增加政策一直增加但是加速一直減少這是原因所以我們也希望這個源頭活水能夠維持我們會繼續加大你們不是希望這是你們要去擋到的目的沒有做到的原因是什麼經濟部上來的時候經濟部有中小企業署嗎我們中小企業署要上來中小企業新創署沒有國防委員回答完畢你把它回答完為什麼"},{"start":12542.866,"end":12564.407,"text":"沒有 所以我沒有注意到這個當然原因可能很複雜那我們希望在大學法人新創或者是企業部份大學法人我順便跟你講我看你們今天有提供是一個假消息嗎你們說你們跟這個臺大校友臺大校友基金嘛 對不對做一個校園這個要投資什麼校園這個成立臺灣第一個校友VC投資基金這是假新聞嗎"},{"start":12566.098,"end":12579.803,"text":"不是嘛什麼叫做第一個校友投資20年前成大交通大學也早就有啦你是在詐騙國人還是在詐騙立法院不是因為他們很多校友基金的目的是透過投資上市櫃股票有獲利回饋給學校"},{"start":12580.97,"end":12609.284,"text":"那我們臺大規劃的這個校友基金就純粹就類似以VC的方式是直接投資新創就是不太一樣所以講第一個的意思是這個意思就性質不太一樣你們現在我據本席得到的訊息是你們沒有想要鼓勵提供資源給一些民間業者反而是找特定對象跟臺大洽談這是圖利特定對象不會啦而且還做假新聞說只有這個好像第一個校友基金沒有啦其實這個交大跟成大早就辦過還是這只是你"},{"start":12610.084,"end":12621.028,"text":"為了這個報告寫的故意要寫個東西好像你們有做什麼事情一樣那這個你們的這個創投天使方案現在是成資金已經成為零了是嗎沒有啊沒有嗎"},{"start":12622.884,"end":12624.745,"text":"我請問在疫情期間你這個特別紓困你剛說疫情嘛 項目你回收了多少"},{"start":12643.762,"end":12644.082,"text":"美國跟日本"},{"start":12666.499,"end":12685.911,"text":"我看你們新創署的計畫裡頭在議題就好了還沒問到亞洲資產管理中心新創署的計畫裡頭多部分都是法人在學校在辦理你們有一個規劃一個好的生態系讓民間能自主發展一個新創生態系的這個平台這個部分是不是你們要回去檢討一下"},{"start":12687.352,"end":12710.815,"text":"報告委員我們最近這幾年也鼓勵民間在成立加速器所以我們這個也補助許多的一些民間他們的這些創意機構在做一些新創的這個輔導市長請你看一下美國、日本、以色列都是民間在發展我們政府不要什麼都自己辦剛剛跟這個鄭齊瑜說軍管會說的也是一樣什麼事情都想說政府自己辦政府第一個修理很慢第二個事實上"},{"start":12711.956,"end":12738.146,"text":"本席所接觸的各個產業裡頭對我們的政府的這種高度監管還有反應很慢還有很多的這個思維跟民間的創新都跟不上事實上很多產業都頗有危言很多產業各行各業所以我希望在這個我們新的這個主委的帶領之下要open mind把那個頭腦打開然後那個下面的相關的要跟上不然這個我們事實上也是站在"},{"start":12738.766,"end":12755.812,"text":"支持這個主委支持這個次長你們立場這個政策盡量就要做來做開放那因為時間的關係這個亞洲資產管理中心這個會數下次再來問財政部謝謝好謝謝陳昀臻委員下一位質詢委員王洪威委員"},{"start":12766.056,"end":12766.156,"text":"主委"},{"start":12783.585,"end":12802.543,"text":"主委好 委員好在上個會期討論非常多的就是因為大法官釋憲就是人民的保單可以強制執行那當時引起了非常非常多的爭議而且我們民意代表也接到了非常多的陳情"},{"start":12803.504,"end":12829.678,"text":"那我記得其實包含本席在內很多位的財委會的委員都提到這個強制保單的執行事實上造成了一些我們比較弱勢的保護或者他的保單金額沒有這麼多甚至呢他可能他現在這個正在做保險給付的這些這個比較弱勢的這個保護的一個非常大的一個困擾"},{"start":12830.718,"end":12847.597,"text":"所以後來金管會也從善如流在今年的6月份宣布有8種可以免除強制執行那這一點其實是非常好但是它還是要透過修法"},{"start":12848.738,"end":12875.108,"text":"所以當時金管會的說法是提出來這八種的免除強制執行那麼馬上就要公告然後要送行政院而且對外表示要拼在這個下會期能夠在立法院能夠通過所以我們也非常希望趕快等到這個修法因為到目前為止"},{"start":12876.288,"end":12876.928,"text":"好,所以我現在請問了"},{"start":12895.118,"end":12916.287,"text":"從上個會期6月份說要修法公告到目前為止修法在哪裡是 報告委員我們修正法剛剛預告結束我們收集了各方意見我們重新整理完已經簽報今天應該最近應該已經簽報會趕快送進行政院"},{"start":12917.461,"end":12942.586,"text":"所以現在還沒有送行政院因為我們剛剛結束預告的程序跟整合大家外界的意見所以你們預計什麼時候要送行政院十月底之前嗎應該沒問題十月底之前送行政院那大概什麼時候會送進立法院審查呢那我們就盡快的跟行政院報告請趕快協調其他部會開完會我們就盡快送大院審查"},{"start":12943.362,"end":12971.075,"text":"所以我不曉得我們的召委知不知道這件事情因為這個是知道那很好所以這個事情我們很希望說這個民眾普遍在關心的法案能夠盡快的完成修法好那我請問一下那麼現在你們的修法的這個相關的條文是不是還維持就是當時所宣布的那八項"},{"start":12972.252,"end":12993.265,"text":"現在因為主要是我們也收到很多預告的意見當時我們的八項送給私人參考其實他們在法院跟行政執行處他們看法都並不是完全參採這個因為實務上很多現在就是因為法律上沒有規定所以我們這次修法把它簡化因為大法庭裡面的決議是針對人壽保險它本來就不含健康跟傷害險"},{"start":12994.025,"end":12994.385,"text":"那所以還是一百萬嗎?"},{"start":13016.547,"end":13041.061,"text":"現在不是一百萬現在是多少現在我們是連結到我們的規劃是這樣我們是連結到行政執行法裡面一個最低生活津貼的大概幾個月做一個標準因為我們不希望定一個金額因為這個金額會隨著這個變動我們希望連結到一個比如說按照那個精神上面一個法律上的金額隨著這個東西移動所以我們會用這樣的方式來大概會落在什麼樣的區間呢"},{"start":13042.243,"end":13044.552,"text":"現在看起來這個金額的部分大概就是應該是10到20萬之間"},{"start":13047.079,"end":13074.384,"text":"只有10到20萬就是解約金額10到20萬以上以下的話就不得作為還有我們明文的把健康險跟傷害險排除就不會有說剛剛講很多我們陳情案最多的就是醫療險的部分那這部分的話就會把它明確化也統一的不管是法院或是那個行政執行處他們有一些不一樣的看法我們也希望這個法案能夠趕快通過能夠真的有一個法源以後呢我們法院比較好拒以辦理"},{"start":13075.39,"end":13100.828,"text":"那另外就是你們其中有一項就是包含這個人壽就是小額中老保險以外的人壽保險是這個每個保險人合併之後保險金沒有超過100萬額度以內那個還存在嗎這個在我們在預告的時候很多人有提到就是說不希望保險成為是個規避債務的這樣的一個方法所以我們現在就把它簡化只要人壽保險全部都以人壽保險我們回到"},{"start":13101.388,"end":13111.863,"text":"大法庭的解釋去就是他只針對人壽保險我們就針對人壽保險還有衍生出來年金險的部分所以這邊當然小和中老保險也涵蓋在人壽保險範圍之內"},{"start":13113.484,"end":13142.041,"text":"所以小兒中老保險也在裡面那有沒有一個額度呢?我們額度就統一在按照那個標準來做統一在一百萬?就是以那個最低生活需要的幾個月那你們整個的很限縮餒限縮很大唷那你們跟你們六月份對外所講的跟你們後來實際會送出的法案限縮很大耶那你限縮很大到時候又造成很多的民怨啊"},{"start":13143.081,"end":13165.128,"text":"這個問題我們也是因為透過預告的時候才收集到各方其實也包括我們的那這樣子的話我們可能立法院就好好審一審因為我本來想說如果你們按照你們6月公告修法幾乎是那時候大家都比較達成一定的共識那大家也覺得比較可以接受如果你們現在最後送來的法事實上是線索很多因為我當時就說啊因為很多人講說你給我留一個關財本好不好你如果10到20萬這"},{"start":13170.329,"end":13187.582,"text":"這很多人很難接受啊剛剛看的是以保險給付我們是解約金的角度其實這個介入權最重要的概念是他同時橫平的保護債權人跟債務人那也不能過度偏廢於債務人那其實債權人的權益也是要考慮的所以我們給一個這個重點不在於"},{"start":13188.783,"end":13189.544,"text":"時間稍微暫停一下我請我們的負稅署署長一起上來"},{"start":13219.417,"end":13220.219,"text":"副學組宋處長那個主委我還是要繼續就是主委來來來"},{"start":13232.182,"end":13250.457,"text":"因為前不久你接受媒體的採訪說在明年你們要推TISA這個是事實上過去你們金管會也一直要推的可是我們會推出一個因為像日本是有免稅還有一個免稅額度"},{"start":13253.22,"end":13266.415,"text":"還有一些負擔的手續費但是我們臺灣呢非常不一樣就是沒有免稅當然就是來自於這個財政部不准嘛但是這樣的推出會不會變成四不像"},{"start":13267.867,"end":13287.128,"text":"就是你沒有任何的租稅減免然後只有一些優惠的手續費但事實上現在大家也知道有一些投信事實上有一些的它是已經有優惠的手續費了所以你們會不會出現一個似不像的一個這樣子的個人投資儲蓄賬戶"},{"start":13290.353,"end":13312.962,"text":"各位委員報告日本是因為他有很多所得要課稅所以他在他的NISA帳戶裡面他特別規定在定額的所得定額的所得是免稅的但是因為我們臺灣本身證券交易所得上市櫃的部分本來就全免那另外呢我們對於儲蓄儲蓄的利息金融金融存款利息有27萬免稅"},{"start":13315.964,"end":13341.698,"text":"這27萬也800年都沒調過了這27萬800年沒調過了可是以臺灣的利率水準27萬利息所得免稅倒推來講那個本金是2000多萬2000多萬那我們如果再去看我們的股利我們的股利本身是有二則一課稅制度簡單講你都不用在公司就要預減稅因為我時間有限所以我要請教主委"},{"start":13342.518,"end":13365.863,"text":"按照現在呢財政部的說法就是不會給你任何的免稅啊說我們都有我們都已經有這個免稅那個免稅有什麼免稅額免稅額還有什麼分離課稅所以那你你對你你未來要推出的這個TISA你會有信心嗎以日本來講是因為他有免稅額他上路一個月就這個整個的帳戶帳戶餘額是暴增欸"},{"start":13369.785,"end":13392.478,"text":"對阿 這個委員報告就是日本他確實在做TESA他很方便就直接把他那個資本利得免稅這樣就產生很大的因為臺灣本來就是免稅在這一塊其實上我們已經沒有這個空間那至於說投信投顧公會提出以那個投資的兩萬四五年那個確實在資金的整個激增成本上非常的高我們評估的時候我們也覺得這個東西"},{"start":13393.439,"end":13394.66,"text":"所以你按照這樣的方式你要如期上路"},{"start":13415.923,"end":13429.032,"text":"那你有信心嗎?你有信心嗎?就是到時候你上路之後如果大家對這信息缺缺按照這看起來那跟我現在我存在銀行沒有這個這個特殊特別的什麼儲蓄投資帳戶也差不多啊"},{"start":13429.614,"end":13455.293,"text":"其實還是有差別我想這個點可能付出更專業的說明我是有信心你有信心因為馬上就會驗證到你什麼時候要上路呢明年我們應該還要跟吉寶還有我們的相關參與的頭信頭顧我想明年應該上半年可以來上路上半年是不是這個月今年已經剩下兩個月而已對對沒有錯好拭目以待了謝謝謝謝王宏威委員"},{"start":13457.346,"end":13459.427,"text":"謝謝主席,我請金管委、彭主委"},{"start":13484.966,"end":13487.267,"text":"這個確實需要有相當的勇氣也要有相當的把握那麼這一次賴清德總統"},{"start":13513.632,"end":13539.584,"text":"跟卓榮泰院長他們結束了這個要打造我們臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心這個大方向都完全正確其實這個目標這個策略我們講了都20幾年了歷來政府都在講那過去這個推動都大家講的口號講很多也有訂一些策略但是做的"},{"start":13540.134,"end":13552.752,"text":"我認為可能越來越不積極所以導致現在我們這個部分成果其實很差其實不管就這個調查的這個金融"},{"start":13553.857,"end":13576.746,"text":"指數來講我們臺灣不管是經商的環境人力資本基礎建設所有金融體系發展國家聲望等等這五大項我們怎麼可能說輪到彭主委我們現在輪到後段班全球調查120個城市我們臺北"},{"start":13577.199,"end":13605.828,"text":"我們整個國家我們在這一個部分120個國家裡面我們輪到第73名在5年前2019年我們還有第30名那變成說我們這個名次是逐步下滑還曾經41名也曾經躍升到18名從5年前開始掉到30名之後逐年下滑"},{"start":13606.823,"end":13630.191,"text":"那到現在第73名我們已經淪為後段班那當然你現在提出很多好的策略這些想法我認為這些想法很對但是需要財政部也配合啦我就舉例講這個TISATISA這個部分非常正確啊那我們鼓勵國人開TISA這些個人帳戶那這當然"},{"start":13633.126,"end":13657.086,"text":"要財政部來配合配合什麼配合鼓勵的一些措施鼓勵說是不是減稅降稅結果財政部大概如如不動不能談你有跟財政部談過了嗎我們跟財政部溝通過非常非常多的會議那他們的回應是怎樣我看他們好像不積極"},{"start":13658.343,"end":13680.171,"text":"其實財政部其實蠻積極主要是我剛剛跟委員報告其實臺灣的複稅政策因為他會牽涉到各個產業的公平性的考量那我們當然也知道政府是一體的那我們想說這部分的話確實我們現在我們剛剛跟財政部談了以後現階段如果要推動立刻要有一個非常非常明確能夠追認上新港的輸稅我在猜臺灣沒有這個條件"},{"start":13681.331,"end":13683.373,"text":"市長我想不懂你們鼓勵當沖降稅不是這樣嗎"},{"start":13706.994,"end":13709.216,"text":"你還不是說就如習照先前的制度那在鼓勵什麼"},{"start":13723.511,"end":13751.372,"text":"報告委員因為我們現在對於投資這部分的租稅優惠已經是非常優惠的了因為我們的證券交易所得是完全免稅的然後我們的股利所得我們現在只要你所得在94萬元以下幾乎不用繳稅股利喔我講的是股利喔因為我們有8萬元的可扣抵稅額可以抵減抵減不足還可以退稅那另外呢我們在銀行存款的儲蓄投資所以你認為這些就夠了不是"},{"start":13752.993,"end":13754.834,"text":"你認為這些就足以我們現在鼓勵國人開這個TESA個人帳戶的任何一個優惠?"},{"start":13783.433,"end":13805.945,"text":"你怎麼可以比你是怎樣叫做比他優惠因為他所減免的額度比我們少我們現在是他們是定額免稅我們像政經教育所的是全額免稅然後我們的儲蓄投資特別扣除我們是27萬元免稅他們的額度只有一部分的額度比我們少很多所以我們比較之下我們真的已經比日本優惠多了"},{"start":13806.601,"end":13818.122,"text":"你 我不認為這個叫比日本優惠啦我不認為啦你們財政部就是不積極我隨便舉個例子你就沒說到我一再三令五聲跟你們說"},{"start":13819.588,"end":13841.78,"text":"你們應該對九大公營行庫他貸款給這些建商尤其是貸款給這些高負債的建商讓他們去買地、養地、圈地這就是造成我們臺灣房價節節上升的原因我說你要把這些銀行控管好結果銀行我們要求中央銀行"},{"start":13843.052,"end":13869.145,"text":"跟財政部你們要求銀行要管控好說那你這些建商借錢去買空地空地貸款的部分一年半內要開工那超過一年半的沒開工多少我問你們你們當然全然不知全然不知我們個別就問你們轄管的這九大銀行轄管九大銀行告訴我土地銀行竟然高達5.11%預期的喔"},{"start":13872.95,"end":13877.288,"text":"到了一年半他沒有開工你們也沒跟他催"},{"start":13878.842,"end":13905.728,"text":"這麼高的預期呢那你們表示說那你們就是縱容他們嗎報告委員其實我們是有配合中央銀行的政策我們有要求我們的公股行庫基本上要去控管這個逾18個月為動工的購地貸款控管成這個樣子對 但是因為因為土地銀行它本身它就是一個比較特殊的銀行它就是以土地建容融資為主要業務我們問你有沒有去管控你們說有"},{"start":13906.548,"end":13934.58,"text":"他說好那管控的成績給我們看一問三不知我先問那個我也問一下金管會主委彭主委然後你們銀行局也是同樣的問題我問你們銀行局銀行局也是他說他們都沒調查沒有統計不知道一問三不知請問啊我剛剛說的這個問題是不是該銀行局該財政部財政部因為是九大公銀行戶是他們的嘛"},{"start":13935.18,"end":13940.538,"text":"那他當然應該知道這個數字是我們一家一家銀行去問出來的"},{"start":13941.107,"end":13969.583,"text":"每次都這個樣子問你們說公營銀行戶有沒有貸款給鼠條三兄弟也是銀行局也是一問三不知不願意提供市報委員這個齁這個我們在銀行是我們有針對每一家公司的貸款房貸還有土建容的餘額都有做控管但是因為這個這個這個總的管制的部分是央行在在在那你現在推給央行啦不是這個確實我們是有分工來做這件事情"},{"start":13970.205,"end":13994.718,"text":"所以這個事情是我們問錯人就對銀行局不用管他轄下的這些銀行是不是有貸款出去的沒有照約定的在一個期限內空地貸款耶一年半這個基本常識耶超過一年半這個應該收回不是嗎銀行局怎麼可以不算"},{"start":14000.042,"end":14016.577,"text":"報言因為這些是央行的選擇性信用管制那平常我們在檢查所以央行的選擇性信用管制所以就該央行去管就對了你們的意思是這樣是他要選擇性信用管制他做選擇性的就好你們不用做是這樣嗎"},{"start":14017.438,"end":14018.018,"text":"我現在請問你 下回我們問你 類似這樣的問題"},{"start":14034.571,"end":14049.203,"text":"那你回答不回答十大負債高高於70%的建商問你們也是一萬三不知也是我們一家一家趕快去查建商哪一些貸款率過高的"},{"start":14050.317,"end":14078.583,"text":"結果你們你如果不曉得喔這個有最高的那個第一名負債將近89%啦那你這樣還敢貸款給他你助紂為虐嘛你借他這些錢讓他去買地養地圈地然後現在利率這麼低他當然敢借啊不是這樣嗎然後你們一問三不知我跟你講我時間有限那個主委我跟你講齁我們資產管理中心的重點就是希望啊國外你的錢來給我們臺灣管"},{"start":14080.303,"end":14092.615,"text":"好了我大概3個月前就跟你說說我們有一個很矛盾我們臺灣受險的可運用餘額資金這大概32兆32兆70%"},{"start":14096.348,"end":14111.842,"text":"是被這些壽險業拿去國外投資買國外的債券基金有22兆去買國外的債券基金請問那這個如何說服國際上說你來我們國家你把錢交給我們台灣來管"},{"start":14112.623,"end":14132.024,"text":"我們自己的錢70%去買國外去給國外管然後我們還說那你錢讓我管那你對誰有說服力我們要對非洲這些小國的說服力嗎我們的給更高明的管然後我們請非洲的你來給我管是這樣嗎"},{"start":14133.185,"end":14150.414,"text":"不是這樣啦我想過去他會投資這麼多的時空的背景我想現在現在我們希望把他引回來對所以我上次就是講嘛就是說背景就不談啦我就說這樣子我們國內公共建設也需要資金我們剛好剛好每年請他3%、5%"},{"start":14153.37,"end":14177.014,"text":"轉回我們國內那國內就是要請站你旁邊那個財政部財政部你們就要負起責任嘛你們就教教其他交通部內政部教他們如何來設立這些債券比方說交通交通有很大的像捷運自償率很高啊他只要通車以後賣票以後對不對各項那個"},{"start":14181.573,"end":14191.577,"text":"內政你像社會住宅你像長照這些都有自償性啊那這些現在都缺資金啊那我們把國外的這些資金每年3%、5%、7%請他回來"},{"start":14194.83,"end":14223.722,"text":"是不是又可以充裕我們國內的建設結果財政部也是如如不動沒有報告委員我們其實現在已經跟國發會還有金管會還有財政部已經動了對我們共同擬定了一個兆元投資國家發展的方案這裡面中間就有一個非常重要的就是吸引國外就是本國的資金回臺來投資參加我們的公共建設那到現在你做了怎樣有吸引回來了嗎這個方案因為我們現在你看談的結果有幾家受選公司預計提揮多少"},{"start":14224.602,"end":14248.337,"text":"在這個部分我剛剛講我們70%我們大概從10年前就開始我們國家警覺到這個問題那這個大家一直說應該調降調降結果說要調降越降越高當年10年前大概只有56%到4年前64%到今年70%"},{"start":14252.677,"end":14269.364,"text":"是委員我們也知道就是我們越降越高說要把這個在外面投資的這個金額降低拿回國內結果降成這個樣子有現在就是因為這個我剛才跟委員報告就是我們三個部會現在標準我列幾個國家啦隨便幾個國家"},{"start":14274.486,"end":14276.848,"text":"中共我們最討厭的中共2%韓國8.3%日本21.6%美國12%我們70%他們這4個國家加起來還不到我們的一半天啊加起來才30幾%34%這4個國家加起來"},{"start":14305.237,"end":14310.78,"text":"受險的對外投資金額我們70%他們四個國家加起來才35%天啊"},{"start":14316.448,"end":14334.959,"text":"所以齁 我認為你們不只要做 不只要寫計畫 要積極的去做金管委員我比較沒話講喔 因為他5月才上任你們財政部部長也沒話 我從這一屆立委上任2月3月就開始諮詢他 諮詢他這一點"},{"start":14336.977,"end":14354.978,"text":"他最有責任二月三月到現在都超過半年啦他找了幾趴回來一趴都沒有零趴然後他今年還敢出國去度假是不是不是我們部長去參加APEC我參加APEC那可以原諒不好意思"},{"start":14358.462,"end":14381.697,"text":"報告委員我們剛才那個專案真的經過行政院核定以後我們就會積極來推動而且將來會成立一個院級的這個辦公這個專案會議那我們也會由財政部跟國發會成立一個專案小組辦公室然後我們財政部會擔任這個出產案的一個這個幕僚單位將來會積極來推動這個事情你說的你要負責喔市長我告訴你喔每一句話"},{"start":14383.238,"end":14391.049,"text":"背後都有神明所以你講這些你要對全民負責而且要對神明負責"},{"start":14391.786,"end":14413.046,"text":"好不好主席不好意思我剛剛想到有一句我30秒問一下主委那個主委那個我們我跟你有商量過了我們要用本來經濟部轄管的金融消費保護法那麼用這個你說要找我們找鼠條三兄弟談希望一個機會給鼠條三兄弟重量"},{"start":14414.347,"end":14418.288,"text":"我們已經跟公會跟他們三家都談過了那現在我們也開始啟動我們那個金融消費者保護法執法的調整我們接下來是會持續的去把甚至範圍還可能再擴大一點點"},{"start":14436.192,"end":14465.029,"text":"好,那這三家都同意了吼?因為他們現在還在...對,對,我們朝這個方向努力因為這個畢竟是要花一點點時間他們同意了嗎?還沒還沒還沒接受轄管現在我們是希望說能夠逐步的跟他們溝通現在狀況還在溝通中狀況是樂觀的狀況是樂觀的現在我們努力你就用我剛剛講的那個字給他一個重量的機會好,謝謝謝謝王事監委員"},{"start":14468.031,"end":14488.846,"text":"謝謝謝謝接著我們請廖先祥委員謝謝各位官員可以自由用餐謝謝謝謝召委那麻煩邀請我們彭主委彭主委財政部理事長理事長"},{"start":14495.197,"end":14517.078,"text":"主委好、次長好這個我先請教次長其實剛剛我們的王世堅委員有提到我們臺北應該不能講臺灣就臺北全球金融這個中心指數臺北大概最新一期的報告是第73名那其實很多的投資客就是這樣子的一個名次"},{"start":14517.778,"end":14543.42,"text":"可能對於金融體系不是很了解的人就不會認為說臺灣是一個金融開放非常開放的一個地方可能會有許多的一個限制那今天你也聽到了許多的一些主委在這邊的一些答詢跟報告假設次長你今天有一個朋友可能在海外可能在新加坡可能有在香港可能都有可能幾十億數百億的一個資金"},{"start":14544.534,"end":14554.064,"text":"那你今天要鼓勵他來參加今天我們金管會的資產管理中心的一個計畫你會怎麼說服他把資金引回來"},{"start":14556.007,"end":14584.097,"text":"我覺得應該是說目前臺灣的投資環境我們有很多很優秀的產業很傑出的產業那是很適合在臺灣做投資的據我們所了解其實我們很多目前國外的外資他其實就是看到臺灣有非常好的一個產業鏈他們都願意在臺灣增加投資所以我相信如果我們願意把這個而且主要這是一個優勢另外除此之外呢因為配合整個"},{"start":14585.597,"end":14612.654,"text":"金管會將來他們之所以推出這樣亞太資產管理中心這樣一個專案將來他就會有很多法規的鬆綁會有很多新的投資工具提供給我們這些不管是國內的投資人或者是國外的投資人他來參與我們國內的投資所以隨著整個這個亞太資產中心資產管理中心的發展跟慢慢的一些相關的措施推動出來我相信我們是可以吸引國外的資金來台灣投資的"},{"start":14613.154,"end":14623.764,"text":"今天如果說是有一個人你有很多錢你放在國外有人這樣子跟你鼓勵你把錢移回來臺灣高雄資產管理中心你會被他打動移回來嗎"},{"start":14625.308,"end":14648.23,"text":"其實我們臺灣的租稅措施比較之下雖然也許以香港或新加坡在盈利事業所得稅的稅率上面我們是比他們稍微高一點但是我們在個人所得稅的部分還有就是個人有關資產投資或證券投資方面其實我們很多的優惠其實並不屬於香港跟新加坡好 謝謝次長其實來麻煩我們主委"},{"start":14649.171,"end":14666.83,"text":"其實在做這樣子的一個政策宣導的時候我們當然會把我們一些想要的努力方向講出來但是有時候講這個東西的時候講得太虛啦其實有錢人很在乎實際的東西啦那我們有這麼多的整本的一個整份的一個報告那署長"},{"start":14667.901,"end":14682.26,"text":"今天因為我們今天可能是對國內的一些民眾或者是媒體來做一些政策的一個宣導那今天如果說真的是要對國外的一些媒體或怎麼樣他們可能會想說"},{"start":14682.961,"end":14708.221,"text":"你跟香港比嘛你跟新加坡比那我們現在所推出來的政策跟他們相比你有什麼突破性的一個政策具體的一個政策能夠讓人家在看相關的一個報導的時候眼睛為之一亮願意看完標題之後再來看細項再來從而來做考慮我想這個才是不會變成說大家好像在自嗨的一個政策而已才能夠把它推廣出國際嘛對當然"},{"start":14710.772,"end":14722.357,"text":"陳萌這個委員的指正來向你覺得會是最大的亮點比如說你說法規鬆綁吧或者說哪方面的政策你認為哪一個是最大的亮點在我們推動這個資產管理中心的時候是最有吸引力的"},{"start":14723.172,"end":14741.697,"text":"其實這分兩部分一部分從金管會主政的部分我想說我們第一個像比如說我們要擴大這個本國投信公司的規模這件事情我們對未來臺灣的比如說發基金這些規定我們會放寬像我們臺灣已經是成為很重要的ETF的這個發展的地區"},{"start":14745.658,"end":14752.531,"text":"那再來就是我們對於像比如說當然稅負的部分確實我們的現階段還在跟財政部繼續再看看做一些協調"},{"start":14753.735,"end":14781.386,"text":"那再來就是我們在整個希望能夠創造一個國人投資的機會就是我們會開放我們的銀行的私人銀行業務希望能夠增加我們本國的高資產客戶然後能夠直接在臺灣能夠得到服務我想現階段我們在還有就是我們希望引入更多的資金比如說受選業機構投資的資金投資在臺灣的機會當然很重要的是臺灣的股市"},{"start":14782.066,"end":14806.169,"text":"還有像也是一個非常具有投資性的地方謝署長我剛剛就講一個標題很重要你剛剛又講了很多你想努力的東西你有哪一個東西是拿出來會讓有錢人眼睛為之一亮的他的現在的資產是放在其他地方你要讓他有這個動力把他移到我們的無論你到哪邊就到高雄我覺得這個宣傳是非常重要的沒問題那我直接問一個具體的目標"},{"start":14807.523,"end":14830.131,"text":"在我們這一次我們賴清德總統是2024年5月上任那我們在2027年底的時候你希望你們的這個計畫能夠把多少國內可能放在海外的資產移回來或者是說你們希望吸引多少外面的資金來到臺灣你有沒有設定一個目標"},{"start":14831.111,"end":14848.938,"text":"我們其實上我們對外市有做這樣的一個說明我們兩年有趕的主要是政策是希望我們能夠鬆綁超過這個等於說50個法規我們自己來做那我問你金額你們的目標金額希望兩年之內呢我們能夠對我們資產管理的規模能夠增加大概5到6兆"},{"start":14849.938,"end":14849.958,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":14879.085,"end":14883.67,"text":"謝謝廖先祥委員謝謝主委 謝謝次長接著我們請黃國昌委員謝謝主席 有請監管會主委請彭主委"},{"start":14903.078,"end":14930.734,"text":"主委好今天看到監管會提出政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心以及要協助金融科技新創產業的專題報告我拜讀完這份報告以後非常的有感觸我為什麼說我非常的有感觸我第一次聽到要把臺灣打造成亞洲資產管理中心亞洲第一個資產管理中心我第一次聽到這個口號是在2001年的時候"},{"start":14932.715,"end":14952.182,"text":"陳水扁政府2001年的時候陳水扁政府經過了23年經過了23年我們又重新的打出了這個口號能實踐不能實踐我一向不喜歡唱衰啦但我要提醒你我們上次打出這個口號是23年23年前"},{"start":14955.463,"end":14980.974,"text":"23年後的今天再度的打出這樣子的口號我覺得對於整個臺灣真的所謂不管是金融還是資產管理發展有所瞭解專業的人物專業的人士大家的感慨還是很深我們的政府非常會喊口號喊完口號了以後做得到做不到反正也不是我的事因為我任期早就結束了"},{"start":14981.991,"end":15008.055,"text":"第二個金融科技的發展我看了這個更感觸我第一次到立法院的時候2018年Fintech金融沙盒立專法就是我們那屆財委會過的結果發展到現在2024年臺灣的Fintech臺灣的Fintech發展最有名的一件事情是什麼部長你知道諸位你知道嗎"},{"start":15010.954,"end":15037.422,"text":"臺灣的Fintech發展從2018年有沙盒到現在2024年最有名的一件事情是什麼你知道嗎這個每個人想法不一樣沒有關係你就跟大家講你的想法如果說我從金管監理沙盒的角度我覺得這個沙盒條例確實需要做一個調整所以你覺得經過了6年以來得到最好的教訓就是這個條例要調整"},{"start":15038.955,"end":15065.185,"text":"來我跟主委分享Fintech發展到現在絕對讓臺灣人民最有感的一件事情就是IMB這個詐騙集團在金融科技展上面展覽的事情我再講一次這6年來讓大家最有感的一件事情就是IMB這個詐騙集團竟然在我們的金融創新科技展裡面去招攬客戶繼續詐騙的事情"},{"start":15067.455,"end":15096.252,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子我要延續著我上一次問的啊金管會針對P2P上一屆的主委說要推指導原則我問他問了半天指導原則是什麼法律性質指導原則有法律效果嗎沒有啊從頭到尾沒有法律效果啊違反了也不能作為處罰的依據甚至不可以作為什麼不可以作為參與人的請求權基礎這個指導原則啊看起來真的不曉得要幹嘛"},{"start":15098.092,"end":15118.263,"text":"之前您第一次的時候我說我一定會給你時間是說讓你回去思考有你是不是還是要這樣子做那上一次我們見面的時候你說應該要分階段還是先讓業者自律那自律完了以後我們在下一階段看要怎麼辦我們上次詢答的過程應該到這裡吧是的好"},{"start":15120.029,"end":15148.918,"text":"那請問現在業者自律啊要拖動業者自律嘛我們從2023年的時候就開始嗨說要指導他們成立工會嘛是的現在2024年10月底快結束了啦工會成立起來了嗎跟委員報告一下我們在6月的時候呢因為現在P2P呢他沒有聯合沒關係你先給大家一個答案再來講理由現在工會成立起來了嗎現在還沒有現在還沒有理由是什麼主要是在於說啊他們在"},{"start":15150.12,"end":15173.631,"text":"這些業者分成兩派他兩派想各自成立一個工會但是依據內政部的法律他不可以成立兩個工會所以內政部出來協調六月協調一次失敗八月再開一次會那也失敗那現在就請那個政委出面來做協調那我們想我們金管會呢一再的push說這件事情希望能夠我這樣講好了啦對所以如果現在這兩派業者"},{"start":15175.2,"end":15194.386,"text":"是兩邊都是好人還是一邊比較好一邊比較不好狗咬狗一嘴毛還是兩邊都不好我老實跟主委講我一點都不在意我在意的事情是說你們說要推自律嘛自律前面有個前提要成立工會嘛所以要成立工會從去年搞到現在搞了一年多"},{"start":15195.146,"end":15215.418,"text":"這個我有跟內政部跟法務部他們做好協調他們現在政委會請政委趕快出來協調這件事情沒有我現在有點搞不太懂臺灣不是法治國家嗎因為法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦啊怎麼會搞到是由政委出來喬兩派的業者這個不是很怪的事嗎"},{"start":15216.859,"end":15231.68,"text":"對,確實這個部分我們正在努力因為這個是內政部主政的這個內容所以我們現在想趕快其實我們另外一個想法就是說公會是一個問題那另外的話假設我們未來怎麼樣去納管這個在P2P上做融資的活動"},{"start":15232.381,"end":15258.015,"text":"我們接下來會想說需要多久?剛剛你終於講到一句話引起我的注意你說將來要納管P2P嗎?什麼時候要開始做?因為你好不容易從自律聽要邁向納管因為現在自律主委我跟你交換一下我的觀察自律講了半天以後全部都是空包蛋"},{"start":15258.854,"end":15287.2,"text":"搞了一年了以後我這樣講好了啦如果今天所謂這兩派的業者連要怎麼成立工會都沒有辦法形成共識的話主委你認為放任這些業者自律會達到自律的效果嗎連要怎麼成立工會都可以搞到今天這個樣子連工會都沒辦法成立耶這種狀況讓他們自律會有自律的效果嗎 主委"},{"start":15288.874,"end":15314.342,"text":"確實在這方面我們真的還要請我們各個部會趕快努力但是我覺得如果說已經影響到金融消費的一些的安定的話我們已經開始不是早就影響到金融消費的安定了嗎對所以你納管需要多久我們現在納管會剛才這個跟我們會朝向從金融消費者保護法裡面那個第三條的規定來處理這件事情我最後講一件事"},{"start":15316.107,"end":15339.056,"text":"我得到的消息是今年8月的時候開會對你們這種用喬的方式法務部有意見我再說一次你們既然用喬的方式法務部有意見所以法務部根本拒絕派代表去與會法務部拒絕派代表去與會就沒有辦法選出來這個是我了解到的資訊"},{"start":15340.543,"end":15369.602,"text":"那我就覺得真的是非常可笑的事情啊要仰賴業者自律業者沒辦法自律結果搞到半天什麼搞到半天要出來喬喬看要怎麼處理結果對於喬的這種方式法務部根本不想背書嘛人家連代表都不派去嘛讓你會開不成嘛我看會議記錄是說會後要如實呈報行政院嘛所以是應該呈報了以後行政院現在找一個政委出來喬就對了"},{"start":15370.503,"end":15370.599,"text":"本集完"},{"start":15371.013,"end":15398.932,"text":"希望來透過因為這跨部會要協調我最後因為主席站起來我最後只講一句話啦按照這樣發展的狀況主委你應該深深的可以感受到要求這些業者自律緣木求魚搞了一年多啦要求業者自律緣木求魚搞了一年多了啦金管會如果還繼續放任這樣下去的話我希望不要再有下一個悲劇我希望不要再有下一個悲劇"},{"start":15401.394,"end":15410.104,"text":"到時候等到責任要檢討的時候大家又開始啊進行國家足球隊的踢皮球大賽謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝黃國昌委員謝謝謝謝主委其實我們請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":15438.647,"end":15467.22,"text":"主席、在台的委員先進、列席的政府機關社長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者女士先生有請彭主委、財政部的理事長以及國發會的詹副主委彭主委、理事長、詹副主委有請委員好部長好、次長好、還有副主委好來,今天的標題是世代分工投資公建銷匯回饋公建以租貸健病導入證券來,我們看一下"},{"start":15468.573,"end":15489.763,"text":"請問其實是要問主委跟部長部長不在請次長兩位主委先請次長財政收入應該區分何種族群何科什麼稅我們來看一下財政部我們高齡族群資產多年輕族群資產少消費率剛好相反那請問國家在稅收上資產稅跟其他所得稅你會覺得用什麼策略"},{"start":15491.398,"end":15510.918,"text":"高齡族群當然目前他資產的話就是所得稅還有就是贈餘稅或者是那青年族群呢青年族群目前我們多列一些寬減額因為他需要養家對基本上目前我們是照顧他的基本生活需求來好彭主委跟我們次長理事長"},{"start":15511.704,"end":15541.136,"text":"高齡族群他去高資產但是呢青年族群他少資產但是呢如果你讓他提高他的稅後可支配所得他的消費力提高如果今天有個公共建設他去使用比如說捷運啊比如說公共設施然後呢我們的高資產稅呢我們請這些資產者不要去投資持有高資產他去引導他投資公建而且同公建的使用可以得到回饋收益請問主委你覺得這樣的一個循環是不是一個正向可以創造國家利益的循環"},{"start":15541.789,"end":15564.736,"text":"如果從理論上來看高屬性客戶所需要能夠承擔的投資風險比較低假設公共建設能夠提供穩健而且具有保證的現金流確實適合他們投資很好 標準答案我看下一頁而且這樣有什麼好處政府的稅收就不用去多鎖定在資本門的公件他可以多投資國家的未來像青年的住房、育兒、醫療、減負擔請問主委覺得這樣好不好"},{"start":15567.202,"end":15594.791,"text":"其實我覺得就是過去我們可能從編預算只從利息的角度來看比較沒有看到一個是政府的負債跟現金流的問題是的我想這個東西確實是可以解決比如說我們的高負債以及現金流的問題好少子女化的問題國發會也要面對國發會副主委認為如果我們國家的稅制和公建的調度上和國家的稅金的投資上做這樣的調整你認為是有助於我們因應少子化的問題"},{"start":15595.621,"end":15600.986,"text":"是沒錯所以我想這也是為什麼我們各部會現在在朝這個方向努力的一個原因"},{"start":15601.345,"end":15626.923,"text":"好現在問題要請教主委跟次長我們PE跟REITS我們要導入什麼呢導入以租代鑑我先講一下軌道建設、機場跟電廠這具自償性你要做REITS要做PE其實都有大有人在對不對但是呢政府有個東西呢其實可以來導入PE跟REITS譬如說監獄、植物宿舍政府的辦公廳舍如果政府不要自己花錢興建以租代鑑"},{"start":15627.894,"end":15632.022,"text":"請問一下這些公共建設有沒有可能用PE或綠紙來做請問主委"},{"start":15633.208,"end":15661.405,"text":"這個REIT的話是要必須跟不動產做連結是的那我們有兩種東西一種是純粹是這個不動產所創造出來的金流我只針對金流不對這個不動產本身這REIT要跟不動產綁在一起這兩個有個選擇就等於當然這個假設要跟不動產本身綁在一起當然是可以用REIT來做其實這裡面這些不管是監獄、植物宿舍、辦公廳它有一種說法叫PPP我們往下看今晚會跟財政部來思考一下你們有沒有已經盤點"},{"start":15662.509,"end":15688.059,"text":"或者用以租代鑑或具自償性適合PPB模式的公共建設今晚會有嗎其實我們在未來在兆雲投資計畫裡面也有人提到就是說比如說以社宅為例政府本來要花很多錢去蓋那如果說可以交給比如說保險公司或民間公司蓋好再租給政府政府再定期給那個租金形成一個穩定的金流這就是PPB的模式嗎是的"},{"start":15689.62,"end":15704.847,"text":"市長,財政部有去盤點說政府的支出部分具有PPP性質,要去購買服務你覺得財政部有去協助盤點,各部會有這種需求嗎?有,我們有在協助盤點,將來會配合報院的兆元投資國家發展方案進行進一步的盤點"},{"start":15713.454,"end":15728.114,"text":"這個事情我分別問過兩次首先在財委會我問過前黃主委就是說PE跟REIT乙類公債有相似性乙類公債就是具有自償性可以國家來發行公債把公共建設用民間的公債來做"},{"start":15728.815,"end":15729.176,"text":"立法院主席"},{"start":15744.295,"end":15745.035,"text":"市長說到乙類公債,您覺得是不是具有這樣的類似性?"},{"start":15766.42,"end":15792.833,"text":"是而且我們現在我們以我們財政部來講其實我們也在積極推動發行一類公債從108年開始我們就一直在盤點這個非營業特種基金主管機關希望他們能夠利用來市長你抬頭看一下抬頭看一下是在三年前我就問過之前的蘇部長了是就說你們有沒有促餐之外發行一類公債有沒有有結果呢結果呢結果多少5%啊"},{"start":15795.031,"end":15804.477,"text":"一類公債比例低是不是代表你們沒有盤點去推動從2021年我問到現在你們推動了多少來往下看你去講"},{"start":15805.063,"end":15834.134,"text":"我們其實都一直有在盤點但是因為它有一個自償性的特色所以可能有是因為這樣的關係各部會的意願都不高啦我還問了一個就在去年問到你們的部長我說ESG希望你們開始從去年開始推動ESG公債然後呢要盤點哪些項目可以發債來做ESG公債你盤點後不只可以知道哪些是ESG哪些是具有自償性的而且如果你盤點過了今年的一類公債比例又可以提高"},{"start":15834.994,"end":15853.3,"text":"請問一下,你們要演繹,演繹到現在,你到底能不能告訴我,現在政府部門有哪些公建項目可以導入證券化?今年發行的多少?ESG公債比例多少?有沒有答案?導入證券化這件事情,因為證券化條例還沒有通過,所以目前還沒有,但是我們今年有發行一個,"},{"start":15856.721,"end":15857.902,"text":"主委跟次長看一下我的訴求只有兩點"},{"start":15882.686,"end":15904.953,"text":"請金管會跟財政部尤其是財政部上次問過你們了你們還是一樣盤點的效率很差請盤點據已租代鑒以及自償性適合PVP模式的公共建設三個月提出書面報告當然金管會是不負責這個已租代鑒你們就提REITS跟PE那財政部的部分可不可以提出這個部分可不可以提出來"},{"start":15906.735,"end":15927.714,"text":"好下面第二題請研議明年擴大發行業績公正的方案三個月提出會面報告可以嗎可以喔三個月喔上次已經給你們莊部長很久的時間了從去年的十月到現在我希望下次再問到你有一些進展好不好好非常謝謝彭主委非常謝謝次長以及安副主委謝謝謝謝主席謝謝鍾嘉斌委員接著我們請岳英之委員"},{"start":15949.844,"end":15961.61,"text":"麻煩請金管會主委黃主委委員好主委好我這邊有一個陳情案有一個民眾他是在民國94年的時候經營不善"},{"start":15962.333,"end":15991.659,"text":"後來因為這樣就積欠很多銀行錢然後後來到106年的時候因為有人他長輩要幫他還錢所以他就要提出一個清償計畫那當然因為他也因為很久以前的事情也不確定有跟哪個銀行借過錢就去廉徵查詢結果查到的都已經還了但是沒有想到在今年7月的時候忽然間他的房子就被查封了被誰查封呢?被臺灣金聯公司查封"},{"start":15992.95,"end":16021.73,"text":"然後他現在也沒辦法不知道怎麼辦為什麼因為他要還錢的話他也要拿房子去貸款那現在也沒有貸款的機會了也找不到人幫忙所以眼看這個房子啊就要被把拍了沒有地方住那這個案子我們也辦公室也有協調過當時金管會就說管不了臺灣金聯這件事情我就覺得非常誇張臺灣金聯的請問一下主委臺灣金聯的供股是佔幾%"},{"start":16023.441,"end":16026.77,"text":"關鼓站幾發?我問主委"},{"start":16029.594,"end":16050.343,"text":"報告委員這個問題我確實沒長80%吧?那是金融機構轉投資?剛剛局長說是金融機構轉投資政府並沒有投資政府沒有投資總是有間接持股嗎?多少?沒有,就是金融機構的投資我會議詢問財政部?是公股銀行的投資沒關係啦,基本上關股也是影響到"},{"start":16056.604,"end":16075.114,"text":"金管會應該要去我認為金管會要去管啦金管會要去管啦那現在有幾個問題第一個問題請問一下臺灣今年他可以在完全不通知這個人的情況之下直接去查封他的房子嗎如果是一般的銀行的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":16077.185,"end":16105.804,"text":"一般的銀行的做法要查封人的財產應該是要根據一定的法律程序比如你要舉證你的債權跟法院申請才有辦法查封我們現在如果是銀行要去查封一個人的房子是不是會先催收然後會經過一個溝通你確實不想還的話呢當然最後程序就是查封你的房子嘛因為查封這個房子其實是蠻嚴重的一件事情他可能會讓人無家可歸嘛對吧他也是希望能還錢不是希望查封"},{"start":16107.645,"end":16131.948,"text":"為什麼這個臺灣金聯他會取得這個債權是因為合庫在因為我剛剛講他是94年跟合庫借的錢後來95年合庫就把大概轉讓了50萬給臺灣金聯公司臺灣金聯公司中間也都沒有處理在今年7月忽然間又去查封人家房子也沒有通知那這個人會覺得很奇怪為什麼第一個他跟連珍問過啊他就沒有這筆資料啊他以為該還都還了嘛"},{"start":16133.169,"end":16133.689,"text":"政府機關可以這樣子喔?"},{"start":16160.675,"end":16182.065,"text":"請問一下人民當然他欠錢是有這個事實但是人在家中做忽然間就要被查封了然後跟主管機關反映主管機關說這不關我的事可以麻木破人到這種地步喔當然如果說是我們這就是你們單位那時候來我們協調會講的話啊這我去趕快去解釋一下如果主委我現在在這個質詢台上問你你可以接受你們你們基本上會有這種態度嗎"},{"start":16184.243,"end":16204.602,"text":"這個報告委員這個確實剛才講我們要先去了解一下狀況我才能跟您回覆這樣謝謝沒有沒有我告訴你嘛如果是有這件事情的話你可以接受嗎如果說剛才跟委員說過就假設我是一個房子我覺得我債務清償完畢突然被查封當然每個人都很驚訝不能接受嘛他儘管會提供給你也許這個特例你幫忙協調一下嘛不願意說跟我無關"},{"start":16205.936,"end":16224.901,"text":"金管...臺灣今年現在董事長以前還做過你們金管會主委關係這麼密切然後說跟你無關我...我真的不能接受金融主管機關是這樣的態度啦對,這個是我...第二個我認你啦為什麼他106年提出清償去向連珍去查的時候沒有這個資料為什麼為什麼"},{"start":16228.318,"end":16244.087,"text":"這主要是剛才那個同仁跟我回答說若他已經賣給已經移轉到台積聯去的話他當然查不到那就是一個很大的漏洞阿你今天我們為什麼要廉政中心的存在不就是要讓大家查一下到底比如說你還有多少積欠"},{"start":16244.983,"end":16266.646,"text":"基欠的債務嗎?第二個你也是讓其他銀行了解到這個人信用有沒有問題嗎?結果你只要把債權賣給比如說臺灣金聯哇!這個資料就消失欸那如果說今天是這個人假設啦這個人信用很差但是今年又查不到他的資料他要去跟其他銀行借錢銀行以為他信用很好再借錢給他欸這是一個很大的漏洞欸"},{"start":16267.608,"end":16278.166,"text":"你不覺得嗎?這個案子我想我再了解一下不是這個案子我現在就這個案子引發出來制度的討論在跟你就教嘛那你覺得是不是一個很大的漏洞?"},{"start":16279.682,"end":16307.231,"text":"這個如果需要檢討的地方那你覺不覺得是一個很大的漏洞這個確實我覺得我現在還要真的瞭解他如果這是常態的實務作業的模式的話那我現在也不方便評論不方便評論不方便評論我就跟你講說這是一個很大的漏洞只要這個人有債務的問題只要他轉賣給臺灣金聯這個在聯證中心就沒資料銀行也不知道民眾也不知道"},{"start":16308.231,"end":16335.893,"text":"你覺得OK嗎這可能還牽涉到其他我想說從這部分請容我去了解一下我再其實已經找過你們了嘛你們下面的人就在推推我才會來質詢嘛你會不會來開協調會的人有一點擔當好不好第三個問你啦台灣今年那時候啊取得這個債權有登報啦然後那天來的台灣今年說我沒有登報啊這是他自己沒看到啊請問一下他登什麼報"},{"start":16337.097,"end":16360.138,"text":"現在每一個人都有在看報嗎?你們現在金管的機制裡面還是用這種上古年代的做法喔?當然這可能是一個法定程序或是法規上都有很多制度的漏洞那因為今天趙偉已經站起來我不想讓他為難啦你能不能夠針對這個個案提出一個完整的檢討報告給我趙偉可以嗎?可以沒問題趙偉可以可以可以教授他一下"},{"start":16361.122,"end":16386.596,"text":"因為我們協調會他們派人實在是太蠻憨了我真是受不了金管會要好好處理委員的這個協調會對對我剛剛已經說這個報告我會什麼時候因為已經這個案子你們早就知道了啊什麼時候包括這個案子怎麼處理包括制度怎麼解決什麼時候給我一個簽討報告我們兩個禮拜給你兩個禮拜給委員報告好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝葉元之委員謝謝彭主委就是請審發會委員"},{"start":16399.976,"end":16402.921,"text":"主席請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":16407.926,"end":16436.402,"text":"黃主委午安我們又有這個機會公開來討論這個亞洲資產管理中心因為今天這個你們上任在上個會上個會期的總諮詢7月2號跟這個會期的總諮詢9月20號我都是就是這個單一主題跟你在總諮詢裡面討論到現在謝謝委員提供很多寶貴的意見所以這個其實現在這個你們所提的這個願景我都已經朗朗上口了"},{"start":16438.723,"end":16452.048,"text":"這個油材引資五大計畫十六項策略兩年有趕四年有變六年有成這個我都差不多會背了謝謝這個我想其實"},{"start":16453.328,"end":16480.121,"text":"我還是滿欣慰就因為我這樣7月質詢一次9月質詢一次到今天10月再來其實每一次我看到都有進展其實我們金管會在打造亞洲資產管理中心這件事情上面我看到的是是真的有在認真推動不管說推動的成果大家滿不滿意但有很多部分大家剛剛前面委員都有質詢過大家有一些擔憂不過"},{"start":16482.062,"end":16502.314,"text":"我在這邊我先就這個我過去的質詢我們來做一個成果的檢視這個我7月2號的時候施政總質詢我大概提出大概幾個重要的觀點重要的建議這是我建議說要參考日本要設立這個金融特區那我也提到這個有關鬆綁法規的問題"},{"start":16505.134,"end":16515.372,"text":"那我看這個建立金融設立金融特區在最後在這幾個月就有進展了現在我們大概高雄的整個規劃就這個確實是是有往前走一步"},{"start":16516.141,"end":16540.468,"text":"那這個但是有關鬆綁法規的部分我看你們也有也有設定在一些檢討的相關計畫那我也是希望說能夠盡快達成那另外也就在那一樣在7月2號我提提了一個就是希望你們能夠建立在這個在金管會的網頁網頁上面能夠建立一個這個專區有關這個亞洲資產管理中心的專區"},{"start":16544.469,"end":16563.378,"text":"那我現在看你們金管會有這個專區吉寶公司有這個專區還有我們這個金融服務業聯合總會我都看到有這個專區但是那時候其實如果主委還有音箱那時候我跟你提的是一個我個人是比較期待他是一個全英語式的全英語式的一站式的服務"},{"start":16564.218,"end":16586.773,"text":"你就是讓外國的這些投資者他能夠更加對他們來講更加友善的一個這樣子的一個網頁是這我們正在籌備有在籌備嗎有因為我們現在中文版先確定然後我們是打算在第二階段整個其他部會的政策都上路以後我們全套的在英語的網站包括相關文件的申請"},{"start":16587.794,"end":16602.801,"text":"相關文件就不只是網頁了這個就是一站式的服務包括那個路徑服務的路徑跟相關生活服務那些日本是做到他連申請文件公文什麼全部通通可以用英語還有就是那個英語的諮詢專線這些東西都會上線英語諮詢專線相關的這些人才這個都不是說我們說我要見就可以這個相關人才的"},{"start":16609.764,"end":16612.326,"text":"接下來9月20號我就是跟主委就是那時候我們集中討論在討論臺版TISA的問題"},{"start":16638.514,"end":16651.504,"text":"提灑的問題我想剛才前面的委員都有大家對於現在這樣子的做法有大家還都有一些問題其實我跟主委溝通的時候這些問題也就是我跟主委提出來的就是說"},{"start":16653.201,"end":16679.515,"text":"現在當然主委也是很清楚因為我知道從7月、8月、9月我們一直不斷的我們也希望協助我們金管會跟財政部就租稅方面大家來做一些討論跟溝通但是這個部分這個財政部一直基於我國的這個投資的這些付稅優惠都認為說現在這樣子大致上已經足夠了"},{"start":16680.896,"end":16701.286,"text":"那但是主委也沒有因此停下腳步這部分我是給主委肯定就是說在這個租稅優惠的部分跟財政部一直沒有辦法就是沒有辦法大家在政策上面能夠完全的一致的情況之下你還是在你所提出來的是說在沒有租稅"},{"start":16702.726,"end":16728.786,"text":"在沒有新增負稅優惠的情況下我們先開始做對不對我們採取這樣的策略但是你看不只是我個人質疑的從剛才很多委員大家就質疑說這樣子沒有負稅優惠的TESA它的誘因足夠嗎所以沒有額外負稅的那個TESA沒有額外的負稅優惠這個TESA它的誘因夠嗎"},{"start":16732.469,"end":16742.278,"text":"現在你們的想法是說把現在既有的負稅優惠整個打包宣傳做出來但是事實上我有TESA沒有TESA我都一樣是這樣子的稅負優惠"},{"start":16745.807,"end":16769.78,"text":"是沒錯,就是剛剛有很多委員指教我在想說其實我們這個提早要爭取那個付稅的優惠確實要有實際的證據顯示它的功能所以我剛才其實報告也講說我們第一階段誠如剛剛委員講我們不能等某個東西一定要存在我們才往前走所以我們接下來還是會持續跟財政部溝通看有什麼適當的"},{"start":16771.081,"end":16789.148,"text":"我想不只是溝通啦因為財政部他的這個說法也有他的立場但是財政部現在這樣子的立場跟我們金管會認為說應該是不是能夠有提供在付稅上面提供更好的誘因來促使這個TISA能夠更為推廣這個中間應該會有一些平衡點跟共識這個我們來尋求"},{"start":16795.13,"end":16824.197,"text":"我會持續跟財政部來努力最後我再問你一個就是我那時候也是在總時訊裡面問了但是到現在我還沒有看到這個樣子就是我們這個我們引之為福我們希望說接近日本在推動他們資產管理中心的相關的做法那時候我提出日本他們做的這個Japan week日本週這樣子的做法來吸引外資這個我們有沒有考慮要做臺灣week我現在還沒有看到"},{"start":16824.677,"end":16836.466,"text":"上次在院會有跟委員報告我們打算就是說今年今年如果說在下半年跟年初把所有整套制度弄完以後我們也會責成我們比如交易所還有就是相關單位我們也會來舉辦類似這樣臺灣活動"},{"start":16839.708,"end":16855.164,"text":"有有有這個計畫吼有有有我們想要對外拭目以待而且非常期待啦對特別是對外資還有對國外的宣傳因為這有助於剛剛很多委員指正說我們的國際的排名為什麼那麼低我覺得這個對國外的宣傳跟我們政策的說明也是非常重要的"},{"start":16855.835,"end":16882.927,"text":"對,好,那你今天就在這邊清楚跟國人說明說你要推動這個臺灣Wix這樣的計畫好,那最後我就是就一點要求你也不用回答就是說這個部分齁剛剛大家對於這個TISA你現在目前在這個沒有租稅優惠為前提情況下沒有新增租稅優惠前提情況下的TISA齁大家都有一些質疑了但是我們自己我們現在這樣子這樣子穩健推動的前提是什麼"},{"start":16883.467,"end":16912.308,"text":"我們還是要有這個關鍵績效的評估的指標啦這個你不能說因為這樣子所以我就做個形式之後就放在那裡你這個關鍵這個關鍵績效的評估指標還是要出來而且我是希望說你們每半年齁能夠提就這些用以這個績效指標來做這每半年能夠提出一些績效報告好不好 是的 謝謝好 謝謝沈發威委員 謝謝接著我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":16921.357,"end":16923.898,"text":"謝謝主席有請金管會彭主委彭主委主委都辛苦了主委您好向您確認一個最新的消息洗錢防治修正草案今年8月3號上路以後為配合修法VSP的業者從原先的法尊聲明做法改為登記制本來這個登記制是應該要1月1號上線"},{"start":16951.158,"end":16971.335,"text":"那這個其實這個差異很大因為改了登記制之前他有可能可以用行政法罰錢了事但是如果改成登記制以後他如果有問題的去經營業務會被處以刑責這是一個非常非常大的一個差異但是主委我們理解這個加強監管力道的做法保護我們的群眾"},{"start":16972.136,"end":16999.129,"text":"那VSP的業者也都願意配合也都理解但現在好像傳出行政院一聲令下在特定政委或者特定人士的壓力之下今晚會有要將登記制的實施提成由明年的1月1號提前到12月1號整整提前一個月這和老師突然宣布這個提前一個月的論文口試還是做各種這種時間的條一個月真的差異很大"},{"start":17001.251,"end":17019.144,"text":"這個真的有點不太一樣所以請主委說明一下有沒有迫於行政院的壓力VSP的登記制要提前一個月施行真的有這件事嗎事報委員不是迫於啦因為主要我想大家這個社會氛圍知道因為當初這部法律也是在打詐釋法的那個內容之內"},{"start":17019.944,"end":17040.825,"text":"所以我們配合因為大家國人對於這個防詐非常殷切希望這些法律能夠趕快上路所以他們也是希望說這部分能夠提前能夠讓這個打詐是法的法律效率提前那所以這個當然是包括在裡面說我們也接到通知確實是我們會這個到12月30號所以12月1號現在目前規劃是這樣"},{"start":17042.136,"end":17060.621,"text":"希望還是不要這樣子倉促施行因為這種朝令夕改的做法其實是有違信賴保護的原則業者沒有辦法信賴政府他怎麼可能安心的做生意再進一步保護民眾呢如果我們的政府都不保護業者的話業者很聽話他願意配合但是因為特定人或特定的做法"},{"start":17061.081,"end":17076.166,"text":"一句話大轉彎大家怎麼能相信主委可不可以積極再向行政院爭取讓登記制按照原定的實施期程不要朝令細改去打擊新興產業我給你一個例子我剛從這個交通委員會過來說到打炸"},{"start":17077.76,"end":17096.921,"text":"倉促上路是會很有問題的啦前陣子他們上了這個通查網10月14號我們質詢完發現裡面可能有很多侵權的問題反而是政策在執行的時候會傷害到人這件事情其實非常危險知識體大諸位可不可以考慮再向行政院爭取一下按照原定啟程實施"},{"start":17097.771,"end":17117.842,"text":"我想委員剛剛的指正我會反映這個意見但是我跟委員稍微說明一下我們這個法律它有3個月之內要去登記然後登記9個月以後才會實施所以它本來就有預留一個蠻長的緩衝期而且在這個過程當中我也非常感謝這些VASP業者確實很努力這點我們要肯定"},{"start":17118.462,"end":17122.023,"text":"主委拜託冒險執鑒為什麼因為你們要繳交的資料裡面有洗房內部控制機和支付這是要會計師簽證現在年底到了這個複雜的大家都想把事情做好"},{"start":17144.13,"end":17144.27,"text":"是,我們反應這意見,謝謝"},{"start":17160.521,"end":17172.825,"text":"而且還有一個很重要是人力的問題我們在總時訊的時候就提過了其實現在VSP業者相關在金管會內部的人力其實是有所不足的院長當天也都理解了我覺得這是一個原因因為業者幾十家要來做這個登記"},{"start":17175.606,"end":17193.054,"text":"其實量體很大內部的業務其實量體也非常的大業者很辛苦大家也都很辛苦倉促上路絕對是非常高風險的事所以拜託主委努力一下再來幾個問題我就很快速的帶過第一個是最重要的"},{"start":17194.295,"end":17209.311,"text":"就是這個我們在這個VSP的這件事情提前一個月實施其實馬上就凸顯這個人力需求的問題我們總諮詢說啦行政院提出人力需求金管會有沒有準備要什麼時候向行政院提出人力的需求"},{"start":17210.629,"end":17238.587,"text":"這點的話我們在內部在盤點因為我們上次補充了人力現在都還沒有到位因為找不到人是具有困難的我們在想辦法當然未來規劃這個明年會專法設立勢必這個一定要開始政府人力的需求有一定的程序我們會盡快提出這樣的希望金管會提出這樣我們才能給予支持行政院也一起來支持謝謝謝謝委員謝謝葛如君委員謝謝接著我們請賴瑞龍委員"},{"start":17245.947,"end":17248.268,"text":"打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心其實過去來有很多歷史的一些規劃那主委這一次我們有什麼樣的決心跟作為能夠落實這個這個能夠成功我想很多的"},{"start":17269.685,"end":17283.635,"text":"人問我說你有沒有信心我說我確實有信心因為我們看到臺灣的狀況跟以前20幾年前提出來的臺灣很不一樣那再來呢我們這次的做法是一步一步來做怎麼樣不一樣主委要不要講得更清楚比如說假設我們現在臺灣20年前"},{"start":17285.578,"end":17310.081,"text":"我們順便舉一臺灣的資本市場絕對不是今天這個樣貌還有就是再來臺灣的產業在全球的能見度跟競爭力絕對不是這個樣子再來就是臺灣的人力資源絕對不是這樣子還有就是臺灣的投資動能跟財富狀況絕對不是這樣也就是說這20年來我們在經濟的表現我們產業的表現上面甚至於我們在資金的部分包括這幾年的資金狀況我們都相當良好所以應該用這樣的最佳時機來推動這樣的一個"},{"start":17311.082,"end":17333.737,"text":"當然確實比如說假設我們以臺灣的股市來看的話我們這整個的今年度到現在報酬率已經將近30%我想幾乎亞洲之冠當然這個終於代表整個臺灣的經濟的轉型還有就是剛才有很多委員指證說臺灣的財富累積到這麼多為什麼跟其他的地區由我們的金融機構或是由國人來管理的財富竟然低到這種"},{"start":17334.818,"end":17349.621,"text":"讓人家幾乎失去信心的這樣一個程度所以這個都還有很大很大的秘密的空間所以說我們在推動這個亞洲資產管理中心的時候確實我們沒有所以主委對這一次的這個推動我想是具有信心的當然我們只是在於說我們能夠進步多少絕對不會退步"},{"start":17350.407,"end":17370.135,"text":"那我也看到高雄、亞灣看來已經做了一些相關的準備也準備了一段時間那未來提出來那應該這會是最有機會成為第一個啦當然未來也不會只有一個啦當然希望全國一起來對 但是這會是最快的速度因為已經在做相關的推動當中了嘛那現在目前整個進度狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":17371.843,"end":17372.564,"text":"預定在什麼時候會提出這個專區?"},{"start":17393.633,"end":17407.944,"text":"我們想我們的規劃是應該是明年上半年可以有個初步的設置就是由高雄市政府來提出嗎是我們一起就是由金管跟高雄市政府因為高雄市政府提出他這邊能夠提供的一些行政誘因"},{"start":17408.945,"end":17423.241,"text":"那我們這邊呢來做一些政策上面的一個促進跟鬆綁然後讓我們的金融機構能夠到那邊去設立一個實體的專區然後透過這樣的群聚的方式我們來嘗試做一個能夠跟境內跟境外做一個連結的這樣一個"},{"start":17424.522,"end":17450.751,"text":"地點應該就是在我現在的圖片顯現大概搖到新灣區這邊嗎因為這裡有智慧科技創新園區高樑園區都在這個裡面我得到的訊息是他應該是非常理想的一個地點他有一個幾個樓層所以未來應該是會用大樓群的方式去做處理比較聚集的這個群聚先開始對那未來的部分有些部分是由高雄市政府來做比如說有些的優惠甚至有些的部分是高雄市政府的協助那中央的部分金管會能做什麼樣的處理"},{"start":17451.331,"end":17474.309,"text":"比如說中央的部分我們對於像比如他那邊設據點我們像我們中央對金融機構據點的設置是有一些比較多的規範那比如說只舉個例子就是說你可以到那邊設據點我們可以不算到你的據點的範圍其實像我想就有助於金融機構在那邊設置一個獨立的據點在那邊我想這是我們可以來做的所以是法規跟政策上的鬆綁當然當然就不是稅法上面的我們是純粹是這個"},{"start":17475.43,"end":17499.842,"text":"那這樣子他到底的競爭的誘因主委怎麼看他跟新加坡香港甚至於跟未來的日本的部分他的競爭誘因呢其實我覺得這個東西的發展要看整個產業的投入跟整個政策的匯集當然我們也希望說先有個開始然後接下來我們很多政策的誘因比如說他這裡面呢我們先把私人銀行跟OBU結合在這邊OBU是專門做境外的資產的這樣那個"},{"start":17501.783,"end":17502.063,"text":"臺灣很多國營在新加坡設有據點"},{"start":17518.653,"end":17546.291,"text":"其實很多客戶在海外其實就可以做這樣一個連結我們還有把那個OBU的部分根據我們OBU條例裡面我們可以做在OBU裡面可以做資產配置其實我們希望透過這樣把它打造成境外的資產管理的這樣的業務透過這個很多元的結合過去從來沒有做過這個嘗試我們想試試看能夠形成一個聚落然後在高雄這個地方其他的縣市也非常歡迎提出我們這樣我們都會全力來協助"},{"start":17547.031,"end":17569.424,"text":"所以等於是這樣把新加坡那邊他本來是到新加坡去的把這樣有機會再導引回到臺灣回到高雄來對部分慢慢的假設在臺灣就有這麼專業的人幫你打理國際跟國內的投資其實我們盡量的讓這些人能夠留在臺灣另外像臺商的部分也有相當多就是說本身的部分他們的資金或者是臺商在回臺的一些投資甚至於在"},{"start":17569.944,"end":17572.025,"text":"主委那我請教那現在有沒有你們所了解已經有業者有意願來做進駐的"},{"start":17590.177,"end":17615.007,"text":"我們了解業者意願蠻高的蠻高的我們有做過調查所以已經有意願他們本身有意願來這樣做了所以這樣看起來成功的機率是相當的高我覺得機率蠻高我們希望盡快來完成這個設置來成為第一個據點然後讓大家也看到說其實臺灣在這一塊其實開始可以有具體的一些進展對我們努力明年上半年希望很快的看到這樣的一個好消息是謝謝主委謝謝賴樂榮委員謝謝主委接著我們請盧明財委員"},{"start":17629.059,"end":17655.775,"text":"主席各位出列席官員主席各位請彭主委、楊航、袁副總裁、國發會、額維好各位首長好怎麼樣把臺灣推動成亞洲資產管理中心其實我對主委大概是寄予厚望那你認真做"},{"start":17656.633,"end":17683.291,"text":"但是重點是其他的單位不要扯後腿啊不會比如說央行我請問一下原副總裁央行會不會扯後腿我們一開始就我們完全支持這個案子的推動那你現在的問題是這樣有一些臺商回來包括財會50萬而已你就把人家叫去問三次現在這個情況還有出現嗎"},{"start":17684.758,"end":17698.975,"text":"我不曉得委員講的是哪一個特殊的案例就是一個臺商小朋友去英國念書他在匯錢出去央行就叫了三次他就說我孩子去念書就匯錢他說你孩子叫什麼 問東問西 問東問西"},{"start":17701.158,"end":17727.968,"text":"那個報告應該是銀行銀行基於他自己的那種跟央行應該央行不會直接跟客戶或者是那銀行說是央行要問的啊我想如果個案的問題我想那個請委員提供我們資料我們來處理這個案子我覺得你要變成是一個國際的進進出出的一個中心你要自由化所以主委比如說像50萬、100萬"},{"start":17731.041,"end":17756.802,"text":"究竟你們查的標準是在哪裡?你覺得兩萬要不要查?那要看情況,我想剛剛那個副總裁已經回答過他們有他們對外匯的一些的指導對,所以你們現在情況標準不明的情況之下很多人乾脆錢就不要匯回來啦你本來就放在新加坡的或是香港或是瑞士的"},{"start":17758.344,"end":17761.147,"text":"才五十萬你問了三次嚇死人了那到底要問什麼呢那你們這幾年來你們都說是怕說有一些洗錢的問題那請問主委還有央行也可以回答去年好了你們查國際的洗錢你們查了幾件金額是多少有查到嗎"},{"start":17784.588,"end":17805.985,"text":"那個我們金融機構在對洗錢房子是日常的常態性的業務那至於說有什麼具體查獲這個步伐那我們在過去似乎沒有什麼重大的案件對啊所以當然很奇怪講得正天嘎響結果查了誰沒有啊一個都沒有啊所以你過度的監管變成"},{"start":17813.12,"end":17835.107,"text":"金融市場不夠自由化那就造成你要打造成一個亞洲的資產管理中心那就越走越遠了比如說現在全世界都還在推動虛擬貨幣還有很多的衍生性的金融商品那我請問一下主委那你們對這個虛擬貨幣"},{"start":17839.092,"end":17853.787,"text":"這第一檔在臺灣上市有計畫是什麼時候嗎?美國都有上市了啊我們對於虛擬資產的管理啊現階段還是走在洗房登記洗房管理這個區塊那我們大概"},{"start":17857.028,"end":17886.508,"text":"那接下來如果明年6月然後通過專法順利的在明年如果專法通過的話我們對於資產管理就虛擬資產這個行業我們就會有一個正式對這個產業的一個監管的一個法律政策出來那個就是我們會正式的對這個東西做一個系統性而且類似像各位看到對金融機構的一個管理現在這個虛擬貨幣的使用是不是未來的一個潮流"},{"start":17887.709,"end":17899.475,"text":"這個有不同樣的說法那你就講川普的說法好了川普當然是支持的他支持那我看他旁邊有很多的很多人都支持他"},{"start":17900.376,"end":17917.194,"text":"特別很多年輕人都是支持的所以10月5號就建政章了假設川普當選的話你對於虛擬貨幣或是這些虛擬資產的交易所你會不會大幅度的開放甚至多多鼓勵他們"},{"start":17917.965,"end":17942.886,"text":"其實我們對一個制度一個所謂新市場的開放不會因為單一事件而做一個大幅我們是看整個長遠的趨勢所以我們在規劃的時候當然會納入各種的考量包括未來VASP未來要監理的構面我們現在都已經慢慢都我們已經開始在做因為我們這個草案在很快今年年底明年年初就要拿出來跟對外的溝通、公聽未來估計"},{"start":17945.66,"end":17950.687,"text":"這個虛擬資產的這個交易市場規模會有多大這個就看怎麼定義就是我們現在虛擬資產裡面的就是你用"},{"start":17952.92,"end":17978.428,"text":"亞洲資產管理中心未來發展的這個願景來定義報告委員我們現在16項計畫裡面暫時還沒有把這個虛擬資產這一塊納入到我們的整個的總體規劃但並不代表我們未來部不會去鼓勵這個事情只是說我覺得我們現在先從傳統金融開始請問就是虛擬貨幣管理的這一塊金管會裡面幾個人在管理這個"},{"start":17979.806,"end":18008.476,"text":"確實委員講到重點今晚會裡面是我們一個組在兼著做確實我們在人員上是非常吃緊現在是可能不到一個科的同仁在處理這件事情一個科有幾個人不到一個科那個科也不是專門處理這件事那一個科不是專門處理那一個科有多少人一個科應該5到10個人有5個人喔哇 那麼多一個科5到10人現在是7個人現在是7個人除非你們現在的人的配置都是大家覺得"},{"start":18009.482,"end":18033.025,"text":"不可思議的任務啊比如說保險局好了保險局管的是幾兆是50兆吧是不是36兆36兆的資產那請問保險局裡面的編制幾個人現在我們是100多個那現在還有大概應該20幾位的缺對啊所以這個就你要說要打造一個很大的一個中心結果"},{"start":18034.042,"end":18062.644,"text":"要將軍沒將軍要兵沒兵那怎麼打你總不能全部事情都主委你來幹嘛當然不會我們就以有限的資源盡量做但是我們也沒有我們要爭取更多的資源你剛剛說36兆的規模那你才100多個人那平均一個人要管多少錢好幾千億對當然當然今晚會說的人管的超過100多兆的資產你們要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草這個是讓大家想差太多了"},{"start":18064.46,"end":18080.147,"text":"這個希望人該補的要補齊那另外就是再請一下央行的態度就是對於這個虛擬貨幣這個推動就是未來亞洲的資產管理中心你們是真的是支持還是要假的支持"},{"start":18081.308,"end":18082.488,"text":"我們希望說這一次不要讓彭教授不要讓彭主委失望"},{"start":18104.405,"end":18130.523,"text":"兩個金融聯手打造亞洲的資產管理中心是可以期待的好不好大家努力做一下事情不要A做是其他扯後腿剛剛那個幾個委員講阿是黃委員阿21年前都講過阿到現在也是還在講阿我們覺得滿可惜的啦另外再講一個就是因為時間的關係阿"},{"start":18131.687,"end":18156.441,"text":"那個主委你有沒有買到周杰倫的票我覺得我應該買不到買不到很多人都打來問說可不可以要一點票我覺得就是到底是什麼地方出了問題有人說是因為財政部財政部麻煩一下財政部看個藝文唱歌表演"},{"start":18157.316,"end":18180.878,"text":"居然還課娛樂稅所以間接的讓這些黃牛票飆漲次長你慢慢吃來我先跟主委再聊一下結果聽說一張票我就不可思議啊報紙是寫說一張票多少30萬這真的還假的啊"},{"start":18183.577,"end":18199.862,"text":"真的不可思議主委我現在是想要再把它拉回來如果說這些周杰倫或是幾個大家都很喜歡吳岳天等等他們都表現得那麼好那請問政府要不要鼓勵他們他們可不可以上市"},{"start":18200.936,"end":18220.533,"text":"就是單一的這個明星當然有人提過像比如說以前也提過我們很多歌星每年發一張片就可以賺幾千萬有沒有辦法把未來現金流折現做個證券化這很多人在國外曾經有聽過這樣的案例不過臺灣我們有一些法律金融資產證券化這可不可以變成是個金融資產這可以再研究不過"},{"start":18221.974,"end":18246.622,"text":"主委努力一下吧因為每個市場有不同的區隔說不定你以後把周杰倫變成一家證券證券化了以後會鼓勵更多的年輕人這些追星族他想要當明星的各行各業他有不同的一個發展是不是可以研究一下當然我們也期待有這麼一個多元化的那再繞回來就是"},{"start":18247.921,"end":18268.5,"text":"全臺灣大概說80萬人要搶15萬張的票搶不到另外一個就是像證券方面你管得到新宇航空啊他的證券IPOL事故就大家搶也搶不到啊是不是在這個成銷制度上面有什麼需要改善的空間"},{"start":18270.399,"end":18298.433,"text":"對 如果說如果說剛剛委員提到這案例我會請那個交易所跟那個我們政局來針對這個個案來看看有沒有任何制度需要做調整的地方那你說比如說SPO的部分跟這個買票一樣有沒有黃牛出現這我不敢那個那個保證因為這我確實沒有研究但是我覺得任何有利可圖的地方都有可能我們希望說你"},{"start":18299.298,"end":18322.083,"text":"股票的SPO就是股票在市股公開市股的這個方面啊你要讓所有開戶者現在開戶有多少一千多萬人嗎有有嗎有一千多萬平均讓這些人可以優先來受益而不是少數的人搶到那個票搶到那個股票"},{"start":18323.148,"end":18338.503,"text":"是不是可以請主委再研究一下我請齊局來針對委員的建議做一些分析最後次長也來了李次長是不是因為娛樂稅沒有廢除啊間接造成黃牛票的飆漲"},{"start":18339.665,"end":18354.175,"text":"委員我覺得應該不是因為我們像那些藝文事業的話像以周杰倫這個演唱會的話其實應該可以使用那個促進文化藝術發展促進文化藝術獎助條例裡面他應該有一個可以減半課徵的優惠"},{"start":18355.476,"end":18379.792,"text":"所以應該不是娛樂稅所以他在大巨蛋辦這一場演出所有去參觀的消費者是不用繳交娛樂稅的應該是減半課稅臺北市政府會依照那個條例讓他減半課稅但是那個金額真的很微小那剛才委員講的那個黃牛的問題其實在那個文化創意產業發展法裡面已經有相關的規範了如果對於這些演唱會啊"},{"start":18385.756,"end":18404.405,"text":"黃牛票猖獗造成大家買不到票本席在這裏像我們電影票就沒有黃牛阿對啊就是因為其實是因為我覺得要阻擋黃牛這件事情文創法裏面已經有相關規範了他都已經有明確規範了我跟你打個賭阿賭一碗牛肉麵"},{"start":18406.499,"end":18427.678,"text":"你如果背除娛樂稅的話保證他也買不到票周杰倫票大家應該就有比較有機會可以買到他也還是買不到票真的因為你這樣課他都不敢推只有5場而已你如果沒有這個制約的話他也許他可以辦10場辦20場啊你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼嗎因為你要課稅的話"},{"start":18433.697,"end":18451.734,"text":"那個主辦單位都怕你會查你資珠幣計每一張票你都查查到最後他也不敢賺賣太多票因為你會倒算去課他的稅啊那一場你們可以課多少稅主辦單位也會害怕啊我辦了一場就賺了好幾億我們明天怎麼申報啊"},{"start":18459.329,"end":18486.14,"text":"可是委員其實我們每一場的表演民眾會去搶票都是因為演員很好啊表演很精彩啊如果是不好看的就沒有人要搶了娛樂稅也沒有用我希望你們也想一下因為沒有買到票了現在很歐啊沒有我們是希望文創法的那個阻擋那個黃牛的這個機制能夠充分發揮他的機制這樣子應該就可以遏止黃牛娛樂稅還是要廢除啦謝謝"},{"start":18490.341,"end":18496.222,"text":"謝謝羅兵才委員謝謝次長我們拭目以待請邱志偉委員每次我們壓軸啊很會彭主委"},{"start":18523.996,"end":18539.985,"text":"邱文豪今天討論一個嚴肅而且重要的問題在你的報告第二頁建置具地方特色的資產管理專區你說要借鏡國外發揮地方特色請問借鏡是哪一個國家日本哪一個城市"},{"start":18540.632,"end":18566.48,"text":"日本呢因為他們針針對因為日本是一個國土很大的地方跟我們傳統所謂的金融中心以城市所以日本哪一個城市他地方特色嘛哪一個城市那個主要是我們看到他是比如說各自的城市根據他們既有條件法比如說他在雜黃是發跟永續跟綠色金融有關的這樣一個那高雄市條件非常好因為他有這個海港也有空港也有過去傳統製造業鋼鐵石化"},{"start":18569.921,"end":18573.062,"text":"所以他的條件非常好公共交通運輸工具又有捷運"},{"start":18593.669,"end":18613.284,"text":"然後呢他的這個服務業也非常好包括這個美食包括所謂這個演唱會經濟是所以他有條件而且地方政府有這個決心破例去推動提供行政誘因包括場地包括租金優惠包括費用補貼行政協助高雄市政府是不是做得非常好"},{"start":18614.245,"end":18633.565,"text":"市政府提出一個叫做00688就是前兩年0租金然後6折8折8折像這種都是一個地方政府願意提出來的一個誘因市政府已經做到它可操之在己需要的是中央金管會的配合你要透過你的政策工序鼓勵國內的金融業者進駐在專區這專區在特定的範圍之內"},{"start":18636.653,"end":18655.741,"text":"對不對?大概是什麼區?什麼方位?剛才就是,剛剛市政府有提到是那個灣區有個大樓,那個大樓裡面還有一些樓層是…這是一個四番專區,從無到有的過程當然需要很多的準備啦。是的。你認為,你期待,你把這個四番專區建置需要多久?"},{"start":18656.828,"end":18678.704,"text":"我剛剛有報告過我們整個規劃還要跟那個高雄市政府再做進一步細緻的規劃還就是我們要在這個本國金融機構你熱觀的期待你希望什麼時候可以上路我是覺得應該我們的規劃是明年上半年應該就可以在那邊開始開始來做這些事情開辦然後這些相關的OBU然後這些私人銀行的實體業務據點都會進駐嗎"},{"start":18681.145,"end":18681.386,"text":"政策目的"},{"start":18696.627,"end":18719.944,"text":"我們是希望就是說比如說其實一開始一定要先有個群聚讓很多的專業在那邊聚集那聚集以後我們提供虛擬跟實體的服務尤其我們看到國外的經驗一些高階的資產管理還是免不了面對面的服務這部分就需要很多專業人士的面對面的諮詢顧問還有一些比如法律文件的這些的說明跟簽署"},{"start":18720.484,"end":18738.945,"text":"這些都是未來整個專區一個很重要的功能最重要是希望透過這樣聚集引入更多高階的金融人才剛才委員提到高雄在很多整個產業上面確實是發展很好但是在金融業上面確實跟北部還是有很大的摩擦所以南北平衡嘛對 你要求證他的未來性"},{"start":18743.148,"end":18765.984,"text":"臺灣不能只有一個金融中心一定要南北平衡或者南中北都要平衡應該是全臺灣都要平衡所以我剛才提過說任何一個城市我覺得都可以來做這件事情強化高雄市的金融服務功能這很重要當然所以我希望你能夠全力的推動"},{"start":18767.907,"end":18775.48,"text":"讓這個所謂的專區能夠盡快成立發揮它的功能另外你第6會提到這個保險業資金投入公建計畫"},{"start":18777.014,"end":18799.542,"text":"您計劃什麼時候上路我想剛才那個國發會也有報告過這個計劃整合我們另外一個行政經濟建設委員會經濟發展委員會裡面另外很重要的一題叫兆元投資計劃這部分我們會配合他剛才財政部也說我們會建一個類似一個投資工建的平台就把我們現在促參還把相關民間提案放在那邊我想未來應該會很快的這個"},{"start":18801.283,"end":18827.931,"text":"會很多的個案會出現所以是跨部會的必須推動的公建計畫那你們跨部會總共要導入多少資金進入公建每年其實國發會企圖性很大所以那個題目叫做兆元投資那我們是規劃說希望在兩年之內我們的保險業能夠投資1000到1200億兩年之內提供1000到200億當然保險業這部分我們先因為剛才制度建立的時候可能沒有辦法這麼快"},{"start":18830.322,"end":18831.972,"text":"我時間到了齁 我一向都很準時"},{"start":18834.098,"end":18862.239,"text":"這個相關的資料再請主委再提供特別我再提一下10秒鐘創新版你們協助234家的微型創意企業籌資60億對不對對創櫃板怎麼樣去運作如何去協助微型企業來籌資這個過程細節流程跟你們過去提供這些234家的相關的成果你能不能提供一份資料給我沒有問題我想說相關的一些促進方案我在"},{"start":18862.919,"end":18890.228,"text":"准备书面给委員好,謝謝主委謝謝邱志文委員謝謝接著我們請林儲英委員林儲英、林儲英、林儲英不在高金素梅委員高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅不在接著鄭振前委員鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前不在楊雄英委員楊雄英、楊雄英、楊雄英不在張家俊委員張家俊、張家俊、張家俊不在"},{"start":18892.648,"end":18912.334,"text":"報告委員會今日登記發言的委員都已經詢答完畢本次會議做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊的請相關部位於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定委員您處因所提的書面質詢"},{"start":18913.994,"end":18928.032,"text":"列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部委書面答覆本次會議議程已經進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好大家辛苦了上會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16207","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16207","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea5998180c4b1e7cf45e5a7d9476abbdb36059d4d42a7fce216aad1aba4800ef5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:17:00+08:00","duration":17175,"影片長度":"04:46:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 - 13:17:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1805.0147187500002,"end":1806.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1807.79909375,"end":1823.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1823.67846875,"end":1849.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1850.0709687500002,"end":1896.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1896.8653437500002,"end":1904.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1905.2859687500002,"end":1921.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1922.6503437500003,"end":1928.2528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1931.4759687500002,"end":1940.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1940.4365937500002,"end":1940.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1940.68971875,"end":1940.7403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1941.2128437500003,"end":1941.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1943.8284687500002,"end":1946.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1947.1697187500001,"end":1951.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1952.4178437500002,"end":1954.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1955.86034375,"end":1956.2315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1956.9740937500003,"end":1962.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1966.54221875,"end":1968.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1969.3940937500001,"end":1971.9590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1974.5240937500002,"end":1981.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1984.1597187500001,"end":1989.9984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1991.6015937500001,"end":1995.7528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1996.8159687500001,"end":1997.8622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":1998.5540937500002,"end":1998.9590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2001.1022187500002,"end":2008.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2011.3284687500002,"end":2016.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2018.9897187500003,"end":2019.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2020.9303437500002,"end":2032.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2034.90284375,"end":2035.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2036.45534375,"end":2037.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2038.5309687500003,"end":2039.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2041.8890937500003,"end":2047.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2047.40721875,"end":2052.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2053.3809687499997,"end":2053.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2053.44846875,"end":2053.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2053.4822187500004,"end":2053.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2054.8153437500005,"end":2060.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2062.7803437500006,"end":2066.0372187499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2069.80034375,"end":2069.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2071.0997187499997,"end":2078.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2080.9040937500004,"end":2085.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2086.0340937500005,"end":2086.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2086.96221875,"end":2087.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2088.7340937500003,"end":2088.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2089.1559687500003,"end":2092.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2095.5684687500006,"end":2095.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2096.2097187500003,"end":2099.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2099.9053437500006,"end":2113.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2113.8272187500006,"end":2133.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2133.1153437500006,"end":2152.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2159.3728437500004,"end":2159.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2159.94659375,"end":2161.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2161.6003437500003,"end":2167.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2168.63721875,"end":2187.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2188.21221875,"end":2198.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2198.65784375,"end":2201.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2201.3915937500005,"end":2213.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2214.90846875,"end":2229.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2230.58534375,"end":2264.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2265.2128437500005,"end":2265.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2266.14096875,"end":2267.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2268.3515937500006,"end":2294.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2295.6384687500004,"end":2309.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2309.94846875,"end":2330.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2331.27846875,"end":2349.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2350.4990937500006,"end":2369.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2370.41159375,"end":2390.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2391.2184687500003,"end":2399.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2400.46596875,"end":2418.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2418.60659375,"end":2424.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2424.4453437500006,"end":2431.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2432.59596875,"end":2433.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2433.5915937500004,"end":2447.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2447.3953437500004,"end":2451.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2456.15346875,"end":2461.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2465.2997187500005,"end":2471.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2471.9315937500005,"end":2476.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2477.31471875,"end":2483.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2484.01409375,"end":2498.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2498.96534375,"end":2521.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2521.93221875,"end":2526.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2526.6572187500005,"end":2529.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2529.81284375,"end":2540.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2541.50721875,"end":2544.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2545.1015937500006,"end":2549.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2550.3328437500004,"end":2554.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2555.19284375,"end":2567.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2568.25409375,"end":2574.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2577.95721875,"end":2582.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2584.16721875,"end":2612.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2613.36096875,"end":2631.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2631.78846875,"end":2680.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2681.2322187500004,"end":2711.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2711.6072187500004,"end":2717.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2717.7159687500007,"end":2718.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2719.4034687500007,"end":2736.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2737.1559687500003,"end":2745.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2746.58909375,"end":2763.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2763.9872187500005,"end":2772.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2773.18409375,"end":2777.7403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2778.36471875,"end":2787.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2787.34221875,"end":2790.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2791.2909687500005,"end":2796.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2797.16346875,"end":2813.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2814.0215937500006,"end":2820.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2820.7040937500005,"end":2839.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2839.8740937500006,"end":2842.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2843.0128437500007,"end":2843.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2843.9072187500005,"end":2844.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2845.56096875,"end":2850.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2850.55596875,"end":2871.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2872.1559687500003,"end":2875.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2875.75034375,"end":2878.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2878.7878437500003,"end":2881.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2882.3653437500006,"end":2886.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2887.15784375,"end":2937.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2938.37346875,"end":2975.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2976.4772187500002,"end":2982.6534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2983.1090937500003,"end":2986.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2987.4459687500002,"end":2991.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2992.25534375,"end":2997.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2997.9928437500002,"end":3062.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3062.9109687500004,"end":3065.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3066.6403437500003,"end":3081.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3082.48596875,"end":3128.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3129.0440937500007,"end":3145.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3145.93596875,"end":3171.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3171.48471875,"end":3237.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3238.68096875,"end":3246.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3247.30409375,"end":3260.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3260.8378437500005,"end":3286.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3287.19659375,"end":3288.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3288.7997187500005,"end":3289.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3289.96409375,"end":3291.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3291.90471875,"end":3299.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3299.7684687500005,"end":3302.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3303.4303437500002,"end":3321.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3321.92534375,"end":3377.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3380.5828437500004,"end":3382.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3383.38409375,"end":3386.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3387.83909375,"end":3388.0584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3388.63221875,"end":3421.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3421.2684687500005,"end":3449.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3463.67534375,"end":3467.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3467.5397187500002,"end":3471.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3472.23096875,"end":3496.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3497.42534375,"end":3499.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3499.7372187500005,"end":3508.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3508.7147187500004,"end":3510.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3511.1953437500006,"end":3514.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3515.26221875,"end":3516.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3516.59534375,"end":3537.9422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3539.2584687500002,"end":3580.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3580.9228437500005,"end":3583.7072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3584.2809687500003,"end":3585.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3585.5634687500005,"end":3609.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3610.5722187500005,"end":3632.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3632.7965937500003,"end":3641.5040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3641.7909687500005,"end":3649.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3650.2959687500006,"end":3679.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3679.84409375,"end":3693.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3693.59721875,"end":3715.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3716.05784375,"end":3772.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3773.2303437500004,"end":3776.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3777.12846875,"end":3779.3390937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3780.0309687500003,"end":3781.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3782.0222187500003,"end":3784.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3784.6884687500005,"end":3786.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3786.8653437500006,"end":3796.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3797.2265937500006,"end":3801.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3802.06971875,"end":3807.9422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3808.51596875,"end":3831.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3832.44471875,"end":3835.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3836.17409375,"end":3837.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3837.92909375,"end":3863.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3863.8828437500006,"end":3869.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3869.9747187500006,"end":3893.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3894.6122187500005,"end":3903.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3903.5897187500004,"end":3953.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3954.29909375,"end":3965.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3965.8415937500004,"end":3989.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3990.3103437500004,"end":3995.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3995.35596875,"end":4029.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4035.07971875,"end":4041.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4051.6847187500007,"end":4059.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4059.48096875,"end":4080.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4080.4228437500005,"end":4088.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4088.6747187500005,"end":4114.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4115.06721875,"end":4123.487843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4123.55534375,"end":4126.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4126.727843750001,"end":4134.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4134.8447187500005,"end":4174.956593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4175.378468749999,"end":4191.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4191.76409375,"end":4244.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4244.97096875,"end":4252.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4253.25659375,"end":4258.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4259.60159375,"end":4300.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4300.4559687500005,"end":4322.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4322.46096875,"end":4330.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4331.35409375,"end":4354.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4354.52346875,"end":4379.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4380.173468749999,"end":4387.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4387.9697187500005,"end":4389.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4389.420968750001,"end":4390.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4391.3447187500005,"end":4400.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4400.45721875,"end":4411.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4411.66221875,"end":4413.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4413.75471875,"end":4416.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4417.04534375,"end":4419.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4419.76221875,"end":4431.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4432.14846875,"end":4437.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4437.58221875,"end":4442.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4442.49284375,"end":4467.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4467.75471875,"end":4476.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4477.28909375,"end":4491.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4492.206593749999,"end":4498.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4498.19721875,"end":4546.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4546.679093750001,"end":4553.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4557.310343749999,"end":4557.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4558.23846875,"end":4561.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4572.16034375,"end":4572.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4573.61159375,"end":4592.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4593.456593749999,"end":4637.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4635.137843750001,"end":4635.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4638.34409375,"end":4653.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4653.16034375,"end":4699.347218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4699.954718749999,"end":4803.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4803.229718750001,"end":4810.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4810.94159375,"end":4831.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4832.423468749999,"end":4866.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4850.04096875,"end":4850.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4866.20721875,"end":4866.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4870.27409375,"end":4880.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4887.62159375,"end":4888.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4890.62534375,"end":4891.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4892.36346875,"end":4893.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4893.94971875,"end":4894.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4895.02971875,"end":4896.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4898.69159375,"end":4902.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4902.85971875,"end":4906.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4907.2978437500005,"end":4908.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4909.27221875,"end":4909.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4910.36909375,"end":4911.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4912.00596875,"end":4915.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4916.376593749999,"end":4918.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4920.76409375,"end":4923.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4923.66659375,"end":4926.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4927.3622187500005,"end":4928.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4929.38721875,"end":4930.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4932.374093750001,"end":4932.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4932.593468749999,"end":4934.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4934.77034375,"end":4937.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4938.61784375,"end":4942.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4943.30909375,"end":4943.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4943.86596875,"end":4945.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4946.700968749999,"end":4947.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4949.2997187500005,"end":4950.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4950.7509687500005,"end":4951.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4953.11346875,"end":4954.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4954.716593749999,"end":4958.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4959.222218750001,"end":4961.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4962.19221875,"end":4965.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4966.05659375,"end":4967.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4967.22096875,"end":4967.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4968.53721875,"end":4971.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4972.435343749999,"end":4976.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4977.24471875,"end":4978.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4979.235968749999,"end":4980.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4981.37909375,"end":4984.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4985.17596875,"end":4986.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4987.33596875,"end":4990.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4991.149718750001,"end":4993.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4994.27159375,"end":4996.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4996.41471875,"end":4997.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4998.30471875,"end":4999.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5000.751593749999,"end":5002.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5003.147843750001,"end":5004.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5005.122218750001,"end":5005.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5005.628468750001,"end":5007.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5008.716593749999,"end":5010.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5012.108468750001,"end":5014.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5014.97721875,"end":5015.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5016.25971875,"end":5017.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5018.419718749999,"end":5019.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5019.600968750001,"end":5021.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5022.99284375,"end":5023.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5024.612843750001,"end":5024.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5025.72659375,"end":5028.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5029.405343750001,"end":5030.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5030.7215937500005,"end":5033.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5034.2147187499995,"end":5035.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5036.239718750001,"end":5038.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5039.800343750001,"end":5040.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5041.589093750001,"end":5044.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5045.31846875,"end":5045.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5046.179093750001,"end":5046.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5047.47846875,"end":5050.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5050.36409375,"end":5051.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5053.030343750001,"end":5055.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5055.86534375,"end":5057.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5057.77221875,"end":5058.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5058.514718750001,"end":5059.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5060.387843750001,"end":5061.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5061.450968749999,"end":5062.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5063.374718749999,"end":5066.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5067.10409375,"end":5067.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5068.18409375,"end":5072.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5072.655968749999,"end":5074.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5075.372843749999,"end":5076.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5076.52034375,"end":5077.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5078.427218750001,"end":5080.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5080.5028437500005,"end":5083.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5083.911593750001,"end":5084.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5085.19409375,"end":5086.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5087.48909375,"end":5090.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5091.30284375,"end":5093.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5094.593468749999,"end":5094.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5095.84221875,"end":5096.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5097.47909375,"end":5099.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5100.3309687500005,"end":5100.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5103.06471875,"end":5103.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5105.69721875,"end":5113.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5124.19221875,"end":5127.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5127.24659375,"end":5129.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5129.659718750001,"end":5133.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5133.96284375,"end":5140.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5140.84784375,"end":5141.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5141.6747187500005,"end":5144.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5145.218468749999,"end":5163.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5163.57846875,"end":5175.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5176.200968749999,"end":5185.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5185.5497187500005,"end":5186.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5186.528468750001,"end":5207.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5209.03971875,"end":5211.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5212.026593750001,"end":5214.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5214.57471875,"end":5217.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5217.86534375,"end":5222.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5223.079718749999,"end":5226.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5226.977843750001,"end":5232.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5232.85034375,"end":5250.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5250.53534375,"end":5258.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5258.55096875,"end":5259.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5260.18784375,"end":5263.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5263.579718749999,"end":5265.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5265.840968750001,"end":5269.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5269.97534375,"end":5273.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5274.227843750001,"end":5298.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5298.7978437500005,"end":5300.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5301.02534375,"end":5303.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5303.30346875,"end":5305.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5305.14284375,"end":5308.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5308.93971875,"end":5312.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5312.77034375,"end":5317.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5319.0478437500005,"end":5325.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5325.57846875,"end":5330.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5331.43409375,"end":5349.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5349.743468750001,"end":5350.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5350.907843749999,"end":5353.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5353.169093750001,"end":5354.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5354.92409375,"end":5360.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5360.44221875,"end":5361.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5361.8934687500005,"end":5367.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5367.90096875,"end":5368.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5368.677218750001,"end":5376.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5377.013468749999,"end":5377.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5377.78971875,"end":5381.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5382.126593749999,"end":5386.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5387.138468749999,"end":5387.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5388.11721875,"end":5396.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5397.01034375,"end":5425.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5425.98471875,"end":5430.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5430.76034375,"end":5433.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5433.696593750001,"end":5446.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5446.89284375,"end":5449.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5451.0947187500005,"end":5451.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5451.702218750001,"end":5453.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5460.409718750001,"end":5463.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5473.04909375,"end":5476.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5477.841593749999,"end":5480.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5481.62159375,"end":5490.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5490.71721875,"end":5524.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5525.88471875,"end":5526.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5527.36971875,"end":5528.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5529.4959687499995,"end":5530.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5530.6434687500005,"end":5531.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5532.11159375,"end":5532.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5533.950968749999,"end":5537.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5538.591593749999,"end":5562.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5563.684718750001,"end":5569.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5570.670968750001,"end":5572.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5572.864718750001,"end":5583.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5583.5634687500005,"end":5584.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5584.47471875,"end":5596.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5596.47284375,"end":5604.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5605.23096875,"end":5606.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5607.9647187499995,"end":5611.390343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5611.87971875,"end":5617.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5617.718468749999,"end":5631.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5631.75846875,"end":5632.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5632.450343750001,"end":5637.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5638.60971875,"end":5652.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5654.843468749999,"end":5659.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5659.264718750001,"end":5664.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5664.7997187500005,"end":5673.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5674.36784375,"end":5677.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5678.046593749999,"end":5698.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5699.325968749999,"end":5703.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5703.6122187500005,"end":5705.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5705.87346875,"end":5706.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5706.936593750001,"end":5717.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5717.669093750001,"end":5721.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5721.887843750001,"end":5728.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5729.329718749999,"end":5742.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5743.50471875,"end":5747.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5747.9090937500005,"end":5770.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5770.15034375,"end":5772.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5772.9178437499995,"end":5775.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5776.950968749999,"end":5779.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5782.064093749999,"end":5783.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5783.97096875,"end":5788.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5788.69596875,"end":5795.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5808.0009687500005,"end":5827.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5828.807843750001,"end":5831.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5832.43596875,"end":5834.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5834.35971875,"end":5837.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5837.7684687500005,"end":5840.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5841.278468750001,"end":5842.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5842.915343750001,"end":5847.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5847.62346875,"end":5871.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5871.53534375,"end":5873.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5877.745343750001,"end":5886.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5887.14471875,"end":5898.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5898.40034375,"end":5919.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5920.52346875,"end":5923.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5923.45971875,"end":5934.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5935.3397187499995,"end":5940.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5940.4022187499995,"end":5947.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5948.282843750001,"end":5952.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5952.923468750001,"end":5955.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5955.218468749999,"end":5959.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5959.57221875,"end":5998.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5999.329718750001,"end":6009.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6010.18034375,"end":6011.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6012.89721875,"end":6015.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6015.81659375,"end":6018.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6019.073468750001,"end":6026.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6027.274718750001,"end":6029.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6029.434718750001,"end":6035.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6036.370343750001,"end":6037.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6038.614718750001,"end":6039.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6040.015343749999,"end":6081.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6081.89909375,"end":6087.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6088.22721875,"end":6090.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6091.65284375,"end":6094.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6095.41596875,"end":6099.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6100.073468750001,"end":6105.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6105.06846875,"end":6108.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6109.32096875,"end":6111.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6111.48096875,"end":6116.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6116.847218750001,"end":6118.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6119.192843750001,"end":6120.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6121.33596875,"end":6129.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6129.655343750001,"end":6145.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6146.007218750001,"end":6151.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6152.11596875,"end":6152.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6153.43221875,"end":6157.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6158.764718750001,"end":6162.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6163.50659375,"end":6165.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6166.780343750001,"end":6173.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6173.985968750001,"end":6176.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6176.669093750001,"end":6183.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6184.212218750001,"end":6190.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6191.40096875,"end":6193.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6194.337218750001,"end":6196.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6196.868468750001,"end":6199.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6199.99034375,"end":6214.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6214.5028437500005,"end":6218.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6218.519093750001,"end":6223.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6223.69971875,"end":6230.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6231.29346875,"end":6232.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6233.099093750001,"end":6233.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6233.79096875,"end":6240.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6240.76034375,"end":6244.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6244.624718749999,"end":6251.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6252.555968750001,"end":6253.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6254.20971875,"end":6262.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6263.22096875,"end":6278.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6278.72909375,"end":6279.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6279.842843750001,"end":6281.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6282.880343750001,"end":6285.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6285.85034375,"end":6291.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6292.36409375,"end":6294.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6295.1990937499995,"end":6297.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6298.169093750001,"end":6300.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6300.312218749999,"end":6301.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6302.522843750001,"end":6304.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6304.530968749999,"end":6314.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6315.044093750001,"end":6315.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6316.208468750001,"end":6318.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6318.58784375,"end":6319.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6320.68034375,"end":6322.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6324.02159375,"end":6326.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6327.464093750001,"end":6331.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6331.345343750001,"end":6332.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6332.847218750001,"end":6334.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6336.5428437499995,"end":6339.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6339.90096875,"end":6344.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6344.4403437500005,"end":6354.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6354.95346875,"end":6377.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6378.81471875,"end":6395.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6395.942843750001,"end":6396.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6397.208468750001,"end":6405.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6407.384093750001,"end":6414.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6415.635968750001,"end":6417.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6417.71159375,"end":6427.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6428.69721875,"end":6445.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6445.724093750001,"end":6461.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6462.649718750001,"end":6463.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6463.66221875,"end":6464.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6464.55659375,"end":6467.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6468.741593750001,"end":6476.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6477.53346875,"end":6489.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6490.020968750001,"end":6494.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6495.876593750001,"end":6498.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6499.217843750001,"end":6506.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6506.794718749999,"end":6508.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6509.714093750001,"end":6528.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6529.727843750001,"end":6539.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6539.78534375,"end":6540.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6540.89909375,"end":6542.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6545.202218750001,"end":6545.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6546.5184687500005,"end":6547.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6547.66596875,"end":6548.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6548.7459687499995,"end":6550.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6550.83846875,"end":6552.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6552.89721875,"end":6563.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6564.94596875,"end":6567.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6567.3084687499995,"end":6568.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6569.26596875,"end":6575.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6575.2059687500005,"end":6580.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6581.989718750001,"end":6583.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6583.69409375,"end":6584.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6585.43221875,"end":6588.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6588.554093750001,"end":6600.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6600.90659375,"end":6605.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6606.71159375,"end":6615.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6616.36409375,"end":6617.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6617.41034375,"end":6625.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6626.522843750001,"end":6631.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6631.5009687500005,"end":6632.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6633.01971875,"end":6633.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6634.167218750001,"end":6636.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6638.2509687500005,"end":6643.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6644.30909375,"end":6644.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6644.96721875,"end":6645.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6645.085343750001,"end":6649.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6649.911593750001,"end":6654.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6655.75034375,"end":6657.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6657.67409375,"end":6666.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6666.53346875,"end":6670.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6671.747843749999,"end":6696.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6696.739718750001,"end":6699.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6700.5028437500005,"end":6705.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6705.81846875,"end":6707.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6707.944718750001,"end":6717.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6717.276593750001,"end":6724.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6725.41034375,"end":6734.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6736.64909375,"end":6738.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6740.12534375,"end":6742.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6742.403468750001,"end":6744.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6745.019093750001,"end":6745.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6745.964093750001,"end":6762.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6763.32846875,"end":6766.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6767.12534375,"end":6777.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6777.7059687500005,"end":6787.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6788.185343749999,"end":6795.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6797.888468749999,"end":6800.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6800.571593750001,"end":6802.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6803.710343750001,"end":6805.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6805.70159375,"end":6811.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6808.99221875,"end":6809.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6815.151593750001,"end":6900.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6901.7372187500005,"end":6902.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6902.96909375,"end":6905.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6906.00659375,"end":6906.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6907.491593750001,"end":6916.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6916.907843750001,"end":7127.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7131.692843750001,"end":7135.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7149.4959687499995,"end":7149.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7149.61409375,"end":7149.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7149.68159375,"end":7149.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7169.577218750001,"end":7169.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7169.96534375,"end":7170.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7170.75846875,"end":7171.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7573.51409375,"end":7575.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7576.18034375,"end":7577.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7577.564093750001,"end":7581.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7585.93409375,"end":7609.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7609.862843750001,"end":7655.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7655.17221875,"end":7705.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7705.392218750001,"end":7709.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7710.70784375,"end":7718.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7718.1834687499995,"end":7719.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7719.58409375,"end":7726.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7726.9247187500005,"end":7736.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7737.032843750001,"end":7746.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7746.5165937500005,"end":7747.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7747.7147187499995,"end":7749.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7750.077218750001,"end":7756.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7756.540343750001,"end":7780.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7781.12721875,"end":7794.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7794.5428437499995,"end":7795.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7795.47096875,"end":7799.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7800.39846875,"end":7840.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7841.624093750001,"end":7855.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7855.79909375,"end":7877.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7878.19221875,"end":7881.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7881.43221875,"end":7904.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7904.9559687500005,"end":7919.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7919.755343750001,"end":7958.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7959.20909375,"end":7968.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7969.249718750001,"end":7970.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7970.81909375,"end":8026.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8027.282843750001,"end":8050.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8050.772843750001,"end":8066.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8069.520968750001,"end":8071.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8071.444718750001,"end":8077.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8078.16096875,"end":8121.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8121.86721875,"end":8128.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8129.27534375,"end":8163.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8163.885968750001,"end":8163.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8164.020968750001,"end":8197.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8197.703468750002,"end":8204.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8204.571593749999,"end":8208.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8208.28409375,"end":8245.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8245.81409375,"end":8282.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8283.25971875,"end":8341.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8341.613468750002,"end":8352.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8353.425968750002,"end":8364.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8364.293468750002,"end":8366.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8366.75721875,"end":8371.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8372.29221875,"end":8375.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8375.211593750002,"end":8381.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8382.180968750003,"end":8465.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8465.796593750001,"end":8510.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8510.684093750002,"end":8561.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8562.16971875,"end":8595.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8596.071593750003,"end":8637.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8640.570968750002,"end":8643.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8650.86471875,"end":8651.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8652.77159375,"end":8687.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8687.871593750002,"end":8719.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8721.030968750001,"end":8749.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8749.92096875,"end":8756.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8756.99159375,"end":8775.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8775.250343750002,"end":8815.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8816.23971875,"end":8909.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8909.96346875,"end":8928.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8928.52596875,"end":8942.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8948.843468750001,"end":8955.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8960.80784375,"end":8973.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8973.61596875,"end":8995.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8995.637843750003,"end":8996.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8996.75159375,"end":9002.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9003.704093750002,"end":9017.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9018.16596875,"end":9019.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9019.718468750001,"end":9031.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9031.446593750003,"end":9033.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9033.77534375,"end":9035.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9036.171593750001,"end":9039.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9039.47909375,"end":9074.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9074.39346875,"end":9077.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9078.02159375,"end":9085.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9086.40846875,"end":9087.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9088.028468750003,"end":9088.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9089.10846875,"end":9090.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9090.930968750003,"end":9092.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9092.80409375,"end":9100.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9100.97159375,"end":9103.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9104.160968750002,"end":9107.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9107.738468750002,"end":9111.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9111.653468750003,"end":9113.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9113.712218750003,"end":9117.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9118.605968750002,"end":9120.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9120.715343750002,"end":9124.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9124.59659375,"end":9125.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9125.69346875,"end":9131.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9131.633468750002,"end":9159.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9160.169093750003,"end":9163.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9163.628468750001,"end":9176.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9176.90909375,"end":9179.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9179.625968750002,"end":9192.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9193.41284375,"end":9198.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9199.36971875,"end":9203.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9203.925968750002,"end":9205.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9205.91721875,"end":9211.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9212.110343750002,"end":9215.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9215.789093750001,"end":9219.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9220.429718750001,"end":9228.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9229.27221875,"end":9232.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9232.52909375,"end":9234.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9234.43596875,"end":9236.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9236.64659375,"end":9237.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9238.40159375,"end":9241.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9241.641593750002,"end":9242.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9242.99159375,"end":9243.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9244.223468750002,"end":9248.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9248.56034375,"end":9251.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9252.15471875,"end":9253.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9253.926593750002,"end":9255.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9256.67721875,"end":9258.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9258.95534375,"end":9260.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9260.59221875,"end":9262.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9262.87034375,"end":9270.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9271.172843750002,"end":9273.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9274.024718750003,"end":9283.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9284.402843750002,"end":9286.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9286.782218750002,"end":9294.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9295.152218750001,"end":9297.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9297.91971875,"end":9300.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9300.92346875,"end":9302.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9303.134093750003,"end":9304.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9304.99034375,"end":9306.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9306.762218750002,"end":9380.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9380.23596875,"end":9382.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9383.425343750001,"end":9385.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9385.21409375,"end":9404.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9404.468468750001,"end":9415.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9416.196593750003,"end":9435.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9435.805343750002,"end":9437.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9439.079093750002,"end":9445.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9448.191593750002,"end":9454.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9458.434718750003,"end":9464.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9464.20596875,"end":9479.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9480.22034375,"end":9521.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9521.68221875,"end":9591.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9594.17721875,"end":9594.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9595.18971875,"end":9660.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9662.01471875,"end":9698.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9698.835968750001,"end":9706.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9707.61096875,"end":9750.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9750.895343750002,"end":9772.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9773.00159375,"end":9812.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9812.65784375,"end":9868.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9868.68284375,"end":9869.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9869.93159375,"end":9871.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9872.73284375,"end":9919.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9920.94471875,"end":9930.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9935.42346875,"end":9938.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9948.957218750002,"end":9950.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9950.66159375,"end":9953.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9954.019718750002,"end":9955.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9955.926593750002,"end":9957.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9958.12034375,"end":9960.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9960.516593750002,"end":9963.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9964.48221875,"end":9965.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9966.726593750001,"end":9975.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9975.41721875,"end":9980.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9980.31096875,"end":9983.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9983.871593750002,"end":9991.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9991.92096875,"end":10001.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10002.41721875,"end":10002.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10002.957218750002,"end":10003.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10003.93596875,"end":10011.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10012.37346875,"end":10013.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10013.43659375,"end":10016.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10017.11534375,"end":10020.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10020.945968750002,"end":10022.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10023.13971875,"end":10029.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10030.227218750002,"end":10039.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10039.47471875,"end":10045.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10045.988468750002,"end":10056.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10057.21034375,"end":10081.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10082.50596875,"end":10093.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10093.94721875,"end":10132.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10132.97909375,"end":10141.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10141.281593750002,"end":10151.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10152.26721875,"end":10157.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10153.212218750003,"end":10153.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10157.414093750001,"end":10162.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10162.44284375,"end":10167.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10167.40409375,"end":10170.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10170.52596875,"end":10174.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10174.69409375,"end":10181.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10182.355343750001,"end":10185.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10185.96659375,"end":10192.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10192.699718750002,"end":10202.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10202.63909375,"end":10210.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10210.97534375,"end":10213.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10213.472843750002,"end":10225.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10225.63971875,"end":10229.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10229.53784375,"end":10229.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10229.993468750003,"end":10232.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10233.098468750002,"end":10233.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10234.296593750001,"end":10235.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10235.91659375,"end":10236.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10236.743468750003,"end":10241.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10241.72159375,"end":10267.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10267.45596875,"end":10270.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10271.13471875,"end":10274.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10275.30284375,"end":10278.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10278.79596875,"end":10279.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10279.63971875,"end":10281.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10282.238468750002,"end":10286.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10286.42346875,"end":10303.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10303.77096875,"end":10311.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10311.347843750002,"end":10322.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10322.67096875,"end":10323.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10323.88596875,"end":10331.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10332.171593750001,"end":10332.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10332.72846875,"end":10335.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10336.019093750001,"end":10342.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10342.92096875,"end":10344.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10344.422843750002,"end":10346.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10354.176593750002,"end":10360.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10360.234718750002,"end":10360.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10361.04471875,"end":10361.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10361.63534375,"end":10373.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10373.785343750002,"end":10388.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10388.14596875,"end":10393.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10393.782218750002,"end":10396.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10396.75221875,"end":10399.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10399.97534375,"end":10401.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10401.96659375,"end":10403.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10404.379718750002,"end":10413.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10413.94784375,"end":10416.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10416.69846875,"end":10445.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10446.21284375,"end":10449.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10449.97596875,"end":10462.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10463.442218750002,"end":10479.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10480.097843750002,"end":10484.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10484.856593750003,"end":10485.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10485.76784375,"end":10517.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10518.184718750003,"end":10587.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10588.06409375,"end":10603.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10604.753468750001,"end":10624.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10624.851593750001,"end":10625.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10626.42096875,"end":10627.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10627.602218750002,"end":10639.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10641.33846875,"end":10668.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10668.524093750002,"end":10710.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10710.964718750001,"end":10733.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10734.809093750002,"end":10739.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10739.618468750003,"end":10764.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10764.72846875,"end":10778.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10778.785343750002,"end":10779.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10780.81034375,"end":10788.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10788.52221875,"end":10801.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10802.511593750001,"end":10803.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10803.91221875,"end":10823.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10823.622218750003,"end":10864.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10870.112843750001,"end":10876.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10887.949718750002,"end":10903.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10904.082218750002,"end":10907.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10908.28409375,"end":10914.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10915.65846875,"end":10924.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10924.433468750001,"end":10927.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10928.230343750001,"end":10930.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10930.440968750001,"end":10934.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10934.879093750002,"end":10935.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10936.81971875,"end":10936.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10937.207843750002,"end":10939.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10939.992218750001,"end":10943.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10944.227843750003,"end":10945.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10946.60721875,"end":10947.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10949.290343750003,"end":10950.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10951.24784375,"end":10953.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10954.15034375,"end":10957.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10957.761593750001,"end":10958.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10958.453468750002,"end":10958.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10959.128468750001,"end":10968.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10968.93284375,"end":10971.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10972.071593750003,"end":10978.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10979.09159375,"end":10980.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10981.454093750002,"end":10984.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10984.17096875,"end":10990.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10990.667843750001,"end":10993.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10994.02596875,"end":10995.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10996.28721875,"end":10996.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10997.333468750003,"end":10997.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10997.97471875,"end":10999.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11000.08409375,"end":11001.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11002.277843750002,"end":11007.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11008.386593750001,"end":11009.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11009.93909375,"end":11010.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11010.985343750002,"end":11014.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11015.474093750003,"end":11016.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11017.53284375,"end":11018.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11018.832218750002,"end":11019.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11020.199093750001,"end":11021.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11021.565968750001,"end":11023.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11024.13096875,"end":11025.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11026.122218750003,"end":11026.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11027.10096875,"end":11030.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11030.47596875,"end":11031.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11032.93971875,"end":11038.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11038.508468750002,"end":11044.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11044.364093750002,"end":11045.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11046.18659375,"end":11051.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11053.577843750001,"end":11061.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11062.234718750002,"end":11063.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11064.394718750002,"end":11066.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11067.094718750002,"end":11074.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11074.620968750001,"end":11077.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11078.519093750001,"end":11087.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11088.087218750003,"end":11090.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11091.27659375,"end":11096.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11096.81159375,"end":11101.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11101.77284375,"end":11107.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11107.34159375,"end":11109.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11109.83909375,"end":11112.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11112.87659375,"end":11113.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11114.074718750002,"end":11115.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11116.875968750002,"end":11118.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11118.42846875,"end":11126.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11127.96284375,"end":11130.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11131.472843750002,"end":11131.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11132.738468750002,"end":11136.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11137.31159375,"end":11139.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11139.89346875,"end":11142.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11142.42471875,"end":11143.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11144.41596875,"end":11145.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11146.238468750002,"end":11147.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11147.48721875,"end":11148.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11149.57971875,"end":11151.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11152.414718750002,"end":11157.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11158.87784375,"end":11161.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11162.860343750002,"end":11164.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11165.52659375,"end":11167.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11168.024093750002,"end":11176.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11176.17471875,"end":11179.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11180.511593750001,"end":11184.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11184.274718750003,"end":11185.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11185.590968750003,"end":11186.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11186.789093750001,"end":11189.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11190.09659375,"end":11191.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11192.30721875,"end":11193.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11194.21409375,"end":11197.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11197.909718750001,"end":11200.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11201.47034375,"end":11201.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11202.26346875,"end":11205.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11206.515968750002,"end":11207.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11208.54096875,"end":11208.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11208.91221875,"end":11209.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11209.620968750001,"end":11212.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11212.35471875,"end":11215.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11215.56096875,"end":11219.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11220.437843750002,"end":11223.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11224.065968750001,"end":11226.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11226.344093750002,"end":11227.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11228.284718750001,"end":11230.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11230.57971875,"end":11237.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11238.44346875,"end":11240.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11242.35846875,"end":11242.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11242.81409375,"end":11243.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11244.36659375,"end":11246.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11247.40409375,"end":11247.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11248.399718750003,"end":11248.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11248.88909375,"end":11252.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11252.93909375,"end":11254.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11255.48721875,"end":11260.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11260.735343750002,"end":11261.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11262.06846875,"end":11264.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11265.426593750002,"end":11268.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11269.08846875,"end":11270.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11270.590343750002,"end":11271.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11271.46784375,"end":11273.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11274.82596875,"end":11279.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11280.411593750003,"end":11281.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11281.778468750003,"end":11290.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11291.86971875,"end":11296.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11296.78034375,"end":11298.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11298.82221875,"end":11299.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11299.800968750002,"end":11301.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11301.539093750001,"end":11305.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11305.74096875,"end":11309.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11309.655968750001,"end":11309.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11310.246593750002,"end":11311.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11311.984718750002,"end":11314.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11314.48221875,"end":11317.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11322.49784375,"end":11325.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11329.062218750001,"end":11329.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11329.973468750002,"end":11334.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11334.69846875,"end":11336.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11336.90909375,"end":11340.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11341.33034375,"end":11345.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11346.29159375,"end":11348.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11349.210968750001,"end":11350.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11351.35409375,"end":11353.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11354.45909375,"end":11356.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11357.294093750003,"end":11358.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11358.82971875,"end":11364.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11364.53346875,"end":11365.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11365.883468750002,"end":11368.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11368.634093750003,"end":11370.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11371.03034375,"end":11373.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11374.253468750001,"end":11376.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11376.88596875,"end":11381.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11382.167843750001,"end":11387.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11388.512843750003,"end":11389.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11390.149718750003,"end":11393.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11393.96346875,"end":11397.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11398.199093750001,"end":11405.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11406.113468750002,"end":11408.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11409.57284375,"end":11412.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11412.964718750001,"end":11418.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11419.52909375,"end":11422.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11422.364093750002,"end":11430.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11431.13909375,"end":11437.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11437.51784375,"end":11445.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11445.769718750002,"end":11447.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11448.300968750002,"end":11448.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11449.07721875,"end":11464.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11464.922843750002,"end":11468.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11468.652218750001,"end":11486.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11486.52284375,"end":11490.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11490.99471875,"end":11499.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11500.15784375,"end":11508.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11508.848468750002,"end":11511.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11511.632843750001,"end":11515.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11516.813468750002,"end":11527.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11528.27159375,"end":11535.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11536.574093750001,"end":11542.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11543.25659375,"end":11554.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11554.47846875,"end":11558.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11559.827843750001,"end":11573.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11574.239093750002,"end":11597.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11597.83034375,"end":11599.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11600.10846875,"end":11603.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11603.331593750001,"end":11614.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11615.70096875,"end":11623.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11623.530968750001,"end":11627.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11627.867843750002,"end":11639.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11639.528468750003,"end":11654.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11654.817218750002,"end":11664.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11665.212218750003,"end":11665.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11665.937843750002,"end":11683.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11683.99409375,"end":11707.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11707.46721875,"end":11709.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11710.67346875,"end":11719.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11720.511593750001,"end":11731.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11731.71659375,"end":11734.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11734.922843750002,"end":11738.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11739.495968750001,"end":11740.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11740.407218750002,"end":11741.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11741.58846875,"end":11743.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11743.96784375,"end":11744.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11744.11971875,"end":11750.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11751.54471875,"end":11759.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11759.762843750003,"end":11766.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11767.27221875,"end":11778.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11779.793468750002,"end":11787.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11788.19721875,"end":11798.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11798.54159375,"end":11804.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11805.03846875,"end":11811.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11812.075343750003,"end":11813.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11813.340968750003,"end":11823.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11823.26346875,"end":11828.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11828.933468750001,"end":11829.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11830.587218750003,"end":11831.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11831.97096875,"end":11835.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11836.425968750002,"end":11872.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11873.53409375,"end":11875.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11875.407218750002,"end":11878.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11879.035343750002,"end":11883.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11883.60846875,"end":11890.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11891.067218750002,"end":11913.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11913.730343750001,"end":11919.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11919.46784375,"end":11977.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11979.222218750001,"end":11985.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11985.837218750003,"end":12011.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12012.364718750003,"end":12014.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12014.81159375,"end":12063.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12064.609718750002,"end":12082.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12082.969718750002,"end":12101.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12089.179718750001,"end":12089.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12101.81909375,"end":12102.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12103.72596875,"end":12111.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12112.72034375,"end":12113.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12114.340343750002,"end":12121.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12122.11971875,"end":12133.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12134.910968750002,"end":12141.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12141.99846875,"end":12142.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12142.065968750001,"end":12149.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12149.06909375,"end":12155.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12156.12284375,"end":12157.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12157.82721875,"end":12165.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12166.04534375,"end":12171.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12171.934718750003,"end":12178.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12179.29221875,"end":12183.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12183.325343750003,"end":12187.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12187.915343750003,"end":12200.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12200.824718750002,"end":12201.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12201.719093750002,"end":12208.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12209.17784375,"end":12214.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12214.324718750002,"end":12227.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12227.89221875,"end":12237.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12238.422218750002,"end":12242.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12242.337218750003,"end":12248.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12249.441593750002,"end":12255.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12256.259093750003,"end":12264.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12265.320968750002,"end":12265.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12266.907218750002,"end":12267.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12267.852218750002,"end":12270.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12270.687218750001,"end":12271.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12272.172218750002,"end":12274.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12275.074718750002,"end":12278.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12278.989718750003,"end":12283.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12284.609093750001,"end":12307.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12307.440968750001,"end":12308.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12308.90909375,"end":12318.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12318.96659375,"end":12337.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12338.237843750001,"end":12344.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12345.24096875,"end":12350.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12351.09659375,"end":12372.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12373.50659375,"end":12387.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12389.301593750002,"end":12390.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12391.562843750002,"end":12399.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12408.066593750002,"end":12423.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12423.86159375,"end":12423.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12424.148468750001,"end":12424.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12425.093468750001,"end":12428.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12429.059093750002,"end":12429.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12430.645343750002,"end":12433.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12433.73346875,"end":12436.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12437.09159375,"end":12454.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12454.40534375,"end":12459.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12460.56471875,"end":12462.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12463.180343750002,"end":12470.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12470.605343750001,"end":12475.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12475.80284375,"end":12478.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12479.144093750001,"end":12479.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12480.105968750002,"end":12483.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12483.61596875,"end":12486.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12486.87284375,"end":12490.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12491.00721875,"end":12502.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12502.583468750003,"end":12507.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12508.23659375,"end":12511.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12511.695968750002,"end":12515.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12516.218468750001,"end":12525.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12525.887843750003,"end":12533.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12533.97096875,"end":12543.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12544.028468750003,"end":12547.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12547.454093750002,"end":12562.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12563.957843750002,"end":12565.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12565.425968750002,"end":12568.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12568.817843750003,"end":12573.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12574.20096875,"end":12581.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12582.01409375,"end":12586.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12586.85721875,"end":12589.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12589.40534375,"end":12592.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12592.324718750002,"end":12600.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12600.74534375,"end":12605.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12605.48721875,"end":12607.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12607.64721875,"end":12611.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12612.01784375,"end":12612.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12612.65909375,"end":12615.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12616.050968750002,"end":12622.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12622.649093750002,"end":12630.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12630.52971875,"end":12630.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12631.05284375,"end":12635.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12635.625968750002,"end":12638.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12639.051593750002,"end":12639.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12640.35096875,"end":12653.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12653.597843750002,"end":12657.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12658.10346875,"end":12672.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12672.278468750003,"end":12675.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12675.82221875,"end":12677.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12677.61096875,"end":12680.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12681.340343750002,"end":12684.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12684.546593750001,"end":12687.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12688.22534375,"end":12700.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12700.864718750003,"end":12731.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12731.45909375,"end":12736.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12736.386593750001,"end":12739.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12739.255343750003,"end":12744.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12745.27971875,"end":12752.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12752.265968750002,"end":12779.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12779.67096875,"end":12791.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12791.820968750002,"end":12815.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12816.77909375,"end":12817.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12818.43284375,"end":12818.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12819.37784375,"end":12841.298468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12841.602218750002,"end":12844.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12845.078468750002,"end":12861.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12862.172843750002,"end":12865.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12865.93596875,"end":12866.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12867.032843750003,"end":12872.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12872.41596875,"end":12873.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12873.74909375,"end":12893.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12893.89784375,"end":12901.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12901.69409375,"end":12910.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12910.958468750003,"end":12913.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12914.755343750003,"end":12924.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12927.79971875,"end":12930.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12935.427218750003,"end":12944.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12944.792843750001,"end":13015.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13015.515968750002,"end":13052.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13028.40846875,"end":13028.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13028.442218750002,"end":13028.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13028.45909375,"end":13028.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13028.47596875,"end":13028.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13052.99534375,"end":13064.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13065.516593750002,"end":13129.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13129.641593750002,"end":13221.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13225.05284375,"end":13231.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13237.675343750001,"end":13242.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13243.31159375,"end":13245.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13246.956593750001,"end":13250.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13251.31034375,"end":13275.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13275.37409375,"end":13287.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13288.536593750003,"end":13297.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13298.712218750003,"end":13313.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13313.157218750002,"end":13335.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13335.80346875,"end":13355.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13356.222218750001,"end":13387.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13387.339718750001,"end":13397.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13397.59971875,"end":13416.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13417.039718750002,"end":13419.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13420.515968750002,"end":13460.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13461.690968750001,"end":13463.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13463.395343750002,"end":13463.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13464.62721875,"end":13465.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13465.94346875,"end":13469.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13469.58846875,"end":13472.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13472.609093750001,"end":13491.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13492.335968750001,"end":13494.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13494.782843750003,"end":13509.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13510.544093750003,"end":13511.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13512.383468750002,"end":13524.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13524.786593750003,"end":13529.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13530.945968750002,"end":13565.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13566.72096875,"end":13573.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13573.656593750002,"end":13574.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13575.192218750002,"end":13581.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13582.262843750003,"end":13588.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13588.219718750002,"end":13605.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13605.53346875,"end":13609.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13610.157218750002,"end":13666.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13669.371593750002,"end":13671.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13671.700343750003,"end":13675.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13679.58096875,"end":13696.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13697.55284375,"end":13782.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13783.19346875,"end":13852.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13853.44409375,"end":13905.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13906.39784375,"end":13913.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13913.940968750001,"end":13917.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13918.04159375,"end":13926.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13927.238468750002,"end":13944.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13946.13846875,"end":13946.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13947.25221875,"end":13951.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13951.302218750003,"end":14026.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14027.745968750001,"end":14038.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14039.474093750003,"end":14047.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14047.253468750001,"end":14048.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14048.519093750001,"end":14089.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14090.554718750001,"end":14099.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14100.12284375,"end":14104.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14104.93221875,"end":14105.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14106.45096875,"end":14112.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14113.20096875,"end":14121.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14121.55409375,"end":14123.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14123.39346875,"end":14178.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14185.206593750001,"end":14186.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14187.36659375,"end":14198.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14199.145343750002,"end":14216.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14223.47909375,"end":14246.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14246.226593750001,"end":14263.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14263.590968750003,"end":14270.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14270.93159375,"end":14277.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14277.597218750001,"end":14312.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14312.612843750001,"end":14321.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14321.590343750002,"end":14328.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14328.79596875,"end":14338.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14338.347218750001,"end":14341.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14342.29596875,"end":14349.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14350.21034375,"end":14357.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14357.90534375,"end":14359.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14360.402843750002,"end":14366.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14366.427218750003,"end":14367.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14367.473468750002,"end":14369.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14369.734718750002,"end":14370.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14371.202843750001,"end":14372.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14373.177218750003,"end":14378.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14378.425343750001,"end":14379.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14379.859718750002,"end":14404.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14405.492843750002,"end":14407.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14408.226593750001,"end":14409.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14409.610343750002,"end":14410.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14411.36534375,"end":14418.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14419.44846875,"end":14421.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14421.405968750001,"end":14426.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14426.907218750002,"end":14453.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14454.379718750002,"end":14463.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14464.16721875,"end":14465.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14465.80409375,"end":14471.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14471.997218750003,"end":14475.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14476.33409375,"end":14479.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14480.333468750003,"end":14484.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14485.14284375,"end":14488.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14489.142218750003,"end":14495.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14496.195968750002,"end":14497.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14498.507843750001,"end":14507.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14507.687843750002,"end":14509.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14510.269718750002,"end":14511.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14511.687218750001,"end":14525.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14525.54159375,"end":14527.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14527.92096875,"end":14530.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14531.363468750002,"end":14538.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14538.94034375,"end":14573.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14573.85471875,"end":14577.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14577.887843750003,"end":14614.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14615.19846875,"end":14624.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14624.226593750001,"end":14640.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14642.02971875,"end":14646.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14667.595343750003,"end":14841.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14842.52159375,"end":14865.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14866.011593750001,"end":14928.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14928.90471875,"end":15034.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15036.347843750002,"end":15041.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15049.746593750002,"end":15050.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15052.24409375,"end":15054.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15054.809093750002,"end":15055.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15056.125343750002,"end":15057.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15057.829718750003,"end":15061.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15062.571593750003,"end":15073.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15074.468468750001,"end":15079.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15079.227218750002,"end":15081.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15082.349093750003,"end":15085.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15086.01096875,"end":15092.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15092.254718750002,"end":15101.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15101.839718750001,"end":15113.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15114.310343750003,"end":15118.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15118.91721875,"end":15128.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15129.04221875,"end":15136.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15137.42909375,"end":15145.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15146.204093750002,"end":15146.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15146.997218750003,"end":15149.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15150.55784375,"end":15166.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15166.605968750002,"end":15168.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15168.52971875,"end":15175.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15175.769093750001,"end":15194.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15194.43284375,"end":15203.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15204.051593750002,"end":15208.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15209.282843750003,"end":15222.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15222.816593750002,"end":15236.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15236.97471875,"end":15249.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15250.00221875,"end":15258.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15259.38471875,"end":15260.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15261.173468750003,"end":15263.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15264.227843750003,"end":15265.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15266.08409375,"end":15267.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15268.19346875,"end":15269.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15269.340968750003,"end":15271.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15272.513468750003,"end":15274.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15274.757843750001,"end":15301.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15302.26409375,"end":15316.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15316.692218750002,"end":15346.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15347.08409375,"end":15406.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15410.888468750003,"end":15410.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15410.90534375,"end":15433.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15775.23659375,"end":15781.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15782.99909375,"end":15783.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15784.956593750001,"end":15786.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15786.407843750003,"end":15787.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15798.743468750003,"end":15800.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15800.835968750001,"end":15810.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15811.230968750002,"end":15825.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15825.92909375,"end":15884.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15884.654093750003,"end":15906.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15907.35096875,"end":15998.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15998.88096875,"end":16018.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16018.75971875,"end":16040.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16041.13596875,"end":16042.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16042.92471875,"end":16044.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":16044.66284375,"end":16093.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16096.469093750002,"end":16101.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16112.85471875,"end":16129.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16130.185343750003,"end":16137.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16137.79596875,"end":16140.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16141.356593750003,"end":16156.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16156.71284375,"end":16157.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16158.923468750003,"end":16177.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16178.363468750002,"end":16180.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16180.489718750003,"end":16198.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16198.883468750002,"end":16215.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16215.555968750003,"end":16215.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16216.180343750002,"end":16218.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16219.184093750002,"end":16246.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16246.26846875,"end":16258.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16258.722218750001,"end":16313.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16313.22846875,"end":16325.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16325.63159375,"end":16368.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16369.23659375,"end":16375.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16378.78784375,"end":16379.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16379.68221875,"end":16387.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16389.520343750002,"end":16391.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16392.574718750002,"end":16393.030343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16396.489718750003,"end":16439.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16440.11159375,"end":16443.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16444.54971875,"end":16445.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16446.35534375,"end":16448.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16448.262218750002,"end":16455.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16456.37909375,"end":16463.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16463.871593750002,"end":16482.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16482.906593749998,"end":16488.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16488.694718749997,"end":16517.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16517.63534375,"end":16520.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16521.820343749998,"end":16535.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16535.826593750004,"end":16569.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16570.302218750003,"end":16583.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16583.66721875,"end":16588.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16588.257218749997,"end":16592.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16593.25221875,"end":16599.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16599.833468750003,"end":16633.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16634.41034375,"end":16640.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16640.333468750003,"end":16655.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16655.639093750004,"end":16667.687843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16667.957843750002,"end":16692.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16692.966593750003,"end":16727.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16728.387218750002,"end":16746.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16749.14346875,"end":16750.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16750.577843749998,"end":16755.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16757.192843750003,"end":16766.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16767.435968750004,"end":16769.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16769.781593749998,"end":16770.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16777.52721875,"end":16783.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16778.607218750003,"end":16778.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16783.230968750002,"end":16790.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16791.11159375,"end":16795.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16795.44846875,"end":16799.937218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16800.645968750003,"end":16801.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16802.012843750003,"end":16803.936593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16804.27409375,"end":16827.780968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16828.54034375,"end":16834.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16835.256593750004,"end":16862.999093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16863.67409375,"end":16868.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16868.685968750004,"end":16870.694093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16870.93034375,"end":16874.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16874.30534375,"end":16879.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16880.22846875,"end":16883.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16883.873468750004,"end":16891.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16891.973468750002,"end":16893.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16894.25159375,"end":16900.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16900.71471875,"end":16906.452218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16906.739093750002,"end":16908.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16908.81471875,"end":16910.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16910.654093750003,"end":16915.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16915.36221875,"end":16917.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16917.859718749998,"end":16922.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16922.584718750004,"end":16927.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16927.225343750004,"end":16932.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16932.87846875,"end":16948.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16951.74471875,"end":16951.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16951.76159375,"end":16957.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16959.94596875,"end":16967.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16968.029093750003,"end":16968.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16969.26096875,"end":16971.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16972.551593750002,"end":16974.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16975.200968750003,"end":16982.389718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16982.74409375,"end":16986.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16986.84471875,"end":17010.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17011.043468750002,"end":17013.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17013.64221875,"end":17022.062843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17022.31596875,"end":17026.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17027.108468749997,"end":17028.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17028.880343750003,"end":17037.233468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17038.22909375,"end":17039.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17039.83221875,"end":17094.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17095.637843750003,"end":17103.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17103.60284375,"end":17122.82346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1805.18,"end":1805.46,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":1823.815,"end":1843.263,"text":"秋政軍徐新穎等14個版本提案有介於國土計畫將於明年5月正式啟動相關影響的效應與紛擾間次顯現所以國土分區有序的運用它的理想與實務從105年1月6日總統公佈《國土計畫法》以來"},{"start":1850.146,"end":1865.356,"text":"中央主管機關致力於推動事宜但是各界包括各縣市政府乃至於相關人民意見與訴求鮮少的梳理與微調現行法執行所遇到的困難與問題"},{"start":1866.937,"end":1894.945,"text":"部分縣市農地劃分亂象縣市與全國通盤檢討修正地方政府提報與不提報分區圖等等相關的問題我們今天特別舉辦公聽會聽取各位專家學者以及民間的意見我們會詳時記錄各位的高見並列入立法院公報記錄中作為法案討論時的參考"},{"start":1897.163,"end":1920.809,"text":"首先我們來介紹與會的專家學者出席的委員以及政府機關代表我們出席的專家學者名單呢我們照這個簽到的順序首先我們介紹國立台灣海洋大學榮譽獎座教授秋文彥教授也是我們第8屆的立法委員"},{"start":1924.068,"end":1936.032,"text":"國立政治大學地政學系教授鄭安庭教授花蓮縣秀林鄉太魯閣獵人協會理事長鐵蠟遊盜"},{"start":1944.668,"end":1971.693,"text":"中華民國都市計畫技師公會全國聯合會理事長區恩喜區理事長國立成功大學都市計畫學系特聘教授張學聖教授國立政治大學地政學系副教授戴秀雄副教授"},{"start":1975.051,"end":1993.288,"text":"逢甲大學都市計畫與空間資訊學系特殯教授周天穎周教授地球公民基金會副執行長黃敬廷副執行長南投縣仁愛鄉的鄉長江子信鄉長歡迎還有嗎"},{"start":2001.635,"end":2016.346,"text":"國立臺灣大學農業經濟學系特聘教授兼系主任張宏浩張主任國立雲林科技大學科技法律研究所教授王福清教授"},{"start":2021.247,"end":2031.438,"text":"接下來我們在場的立委有我們徐宇貞委員還有黃仁委員以及賴慧元委員"},{"start":2043.862,"end":2065.66,"text":"行政機關列席代表內政部政務次長董建宏董次長原住民主委員會副主委杜章梅莊副主委以及農業部政務次長胡宗一次長"},{"start":2072.897,"end":2081.144,"text":"經濟部產業園區管理局副局長曾淑芬財政部國有財產署專門委員張潔祐張專委現場張志倫委員到場"},{"start":2096.607,"end":2112.143,"text":"今天公聽會的程序如下我們首先會先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者來發言我們會依出席簽到的順序為原則每位發言的時間是8分鐘"},{"start":2114.571,"end":2131.841,"text":"本院委員要發言的請至主席台登記在兩位專家學者發言後會安排一位委員發言每位委員的發言時間是5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表來回應說明"},{"start":2133.622,"end":2152.32,"text":"發言台的正前方燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束會按鈴兩聲我們現在來請部會報告首先請內政部的董政次建宏報告"},{"start":2160.031,"end":2187.082,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生以及參加本次公聽會的學者專家、公民團體代表大家早安首先本部對於各界對關切本部所推動國土計畫業務的關注表示由衷的感謝那麼今天貴委員會召開國土計畫法修正草案的公聽會本部應邀列席報告深感榮幸僅就本部書面報告簡要說明如下"},{"start":2188.337,"end":2210.022,"text":"國土計畫法是因民國98年在莫納克颱風、八八風災以及歷年颱風侵襲之後造成國土崩裂、土石流等等複合性災難喚醒國人對於國土保育之重視又因應氣候變遷、確保國土安全促進資源與產業的合理配置與永續發展所以本法經大院三讀通過後由總統於105年5月1日公布實施"},{"start":2214.983,"end":2227.519,"text":"其後依照行政院核定的全國國土計畫指示為了給地方政府合理的作業時程引提國土計畫法部分條文修正草案並經大院三讀之後於109年4月21日由總統公布實施"},{"start":2230.649,"end":2247.683,"text":"所以我們可以理解透過國土計畫的實施事實上其目的是在解決過去數十年來非都市土地全國一致管理的標準缺乏以及沒有主動檢討一致的在相關的發展課題也希望透過國土計畫法賦予地方政府規劃及主導的權利"},{"start":2250.246,"end":2264.223,"text":"通過縣市國土計畫以及鄉村區整體規劃來回應地方的發展需求同時得以訂定計畫來處理外界長年關心的有關於原住民住宅宗教寺廟等等輔導議題這樣子的一個議題"},{"start":2268.408,"end":2292.962,"text":"在立法過程裡面也需要中央相關的配套法制的修訂所以本法的相關執法在本部已經發布14項其餘9項將會陸續在今年年底完成那本部也已經協助盤點需要修正的目的事業法律那由各部會依業務需要評估優先順序先後提報行政院那行政院也召開了相關的會議審議"},{"start":2296.097,"end":2310.243,"text":"有關於地方政府劃設農地的部分依據本法第22條第1項的規定地方政府因應全國國土計畫法以及各縣市國土計畫的指導原則劃設農業發展地區之適當分類農業發展區就提供農業產業價值鏈的發展需求所以我們也與國土計畫土地使用管制規則裡面規範了農業的產製"},{"start":2320.928,"end":2349.071,"text":"除、消、休閒農業、農舍等設施均得予農業發展地區使用促進農地的多元利用以及農業的使用那麼依據本法第15條第三項的規定那麼國土計畫法必須10年檢討一次那直轄縣市的國土計畫每5年通盤檢討一次是指並非屆滿才可辦理而是隨時依產業的需求發展的、聚落的發展的需求那得以適時辦理"},{"start":2350.692,"end":2367.95,"text":"同時為了維護原住民族人的居住權以及部落的永續發展那麼國土計畫法也透過適當的國土空間功能分區訂定原住民土地使用管制規則那麼辦理鄉村地區整體輔導計畫等等透過多元的工具分階段滾動式的來檢討調整"},{"start":2370.713,"end":2399.149,"text":"我們也在110年以及112年我們補助地方政府辦理部落環境基本調查部落溝通與國土計畫功能分區調查作業等我們希望透過這樣的方式協助我們的原鄉能夠進行相關的調查以及土地的使用狀況我們已經全額補助了將近3億元進行相關的調查在未來整體的土地的劃分的時候可以有所依據"},{"start":2400.986,"end":2417.795,"text":"最後跟委員會以及大家報告目前已有14個地方政府提報國土功能分區至本部本部也積極參與地方相關會議拜會地方首長以及由國土永續基金輔助地方政府辦理相關法定作業"},{"start":2418.835,"end":2428.732,"text":"後續將繼續與未提報的8個地方政府持續溝通並提供必要的協助以其中的地方政府如果有調整的必要也都可以與本部國審會審查時間提出相關的討論"},{"start":2432.659,"end":2451.545,"text":"重上國土計畫法的實施是有益於氣候變遷以及確保國土安全自然環境保育與人文生態等等希望藉由今天的公聽會能夠與各界有更進一步的討論與共識的凝聚再一次感謝主席以及各位委員及學界先進的指教謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來請原民會的副主任委員請報告"},{"start":2465.505,"end":2481.951,"text":"主席各位委員還有我們的鄉親還有我們各機關的代表大家平安原民會在這裡針對國土計畫法的這個公聽會做以上報告63年區計畫法公布以後26萬多公頃的原住民保留地有7層邊境為聯用地"},{"start":2484.079,"end":2497.617,"text":"部落族人幾年做造林使用面臨土地受限等問題造成文化傳承經濟產業發展生技受到影響等困境也造成現在部落的建地不足耕地不足還有公共設施不足等問題"},{"start":2499.188,"end":2519.108,"text":"國土計畫法約定在114年5月1日起全面的上路區域計畫法將不再適用因此本會在內政部研擬國土計畫法立法階段的時候就積極地向內政部爭取應納入尊重及保障原住民族土地相關條文因此國土計畫法第23條明定由內政部會同本會共同訂定"},{"start":2519.775,"end":2540.374,"text":"原住民族土地使用規則本會議也已完成嚴禮原住民族土地使用規則草案並在今年的8月14日已經送到內政部按目前的規劃期程應該能依照國土計畫法第45條的規定在明年的4月30日以前與內政部會嫌公告至於地方政府因作業需求"},{"start":2542.51,"end":2558.214,"text":"將有一些事前需要展演的部分本會原則尊重大宴最終的法案的修正結果最後國土計畫法將有助於原住民族土地使用取得合法本會將持續依循國土計畫法第23條規定及全國國土計畫"},{"start":2561.072,"end":2581.839,"text":"原住民族土地使用指導原則以及尊重保存原住民族傳統文化領域及智慧保護自然環境與人文資產建立永續利用原住民族土地的機制以上報告好 謝謝接下來我們請農業部的胡次長報告"},{"start":2585.379,"end":2611.337,"text":"委員是不是我們容許我們用PowerPoint的簡單來做報告好 謝謝委員還有主席還有各位委員以及我們各位學者專家還有媒體朋友大家早安很高興能夠在徐主席的這個指導之下我們有機會來立法院來做公聽會的報告那首先我們最近這幾個月以來啊這個國土計畫法讓各個地方各個縣市政府有很多的這個"},{"start":2613.427,"end":2630.962,"text":"提問 那我們農民也很多的疑惑所以我們從7月開始已經在全國我們辦了157場的說明會總共有7293位這些相關人員來參加那我們就最近這三個月以來我們到各地去"},{"start":2631.863,"end":2632.203,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":2654.375,"end":2654.555,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2671.023,"end":2695.22,"text":"國土計畫法現在賴總統才上台為什麼急著要實施各位國土計畫法剛才主席已經講很清楚事實上那個是在民國105年1月6日當時馬英九總統所公告的公告之後從當年的5月1日開始實施那分成三個階段第一個階段是兩年我們就是要公布全國的國土計畫的這個公告實施這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":2696.481,"end":2716.753,"text":"2年之後就是在107年5月1日之後3年就是由縣市政府按照中央的指導原則來劃設各個直轄市跟縣市的國土計畫劃完之後公告公開展覽讓農民或相關人員來提問然後來適度的應應之後在"},{"start":2717.794,"end":2744.982,"text":"提到內政部的國土計畫審議會接下來就第三個階段就是在明年的4月30日要完成就是我們要公告全國的國土計畫分區圖另外有農民問我們說農醫跟農是怎麼畫的其實這個是我們各縣市政府按照當地的農業生產的需求畫完之後報給我們中央內政部"},{"start":2746.616,"end":2746.816,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":2764.857,"end":2789.99,"text":"來看其實在國土計畫明年要實施之前其實現在就是有個區域計畫法那區域計畫法我們就設定請每一個縣市政府按照如果你轄下的農地一整塊25公頃以上在這個25公頃裡面80%目前叫做農業使用的話這個叫做優良農業區在平地的地方那如果不是符合這個條件的話"},{"start":2791.271,"end":2813.985,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":2814.646,"end":2838.988,"text":"鄉村區還有我們的原住民的這個居落這個是屬於農事那農務的部分就是我們已經被各縣政府劃定為都市計畫區那個這個我們就把它劃為農務所以簡單來講目前農業發展區有農醫到農務劃設的原則就是如同剛才跟各位先進所報告的這樣的一個原則好那接下來又有很多的農民問我們說那劃入劃入這個"},{"start":2840.27,"end":2844.137,"text":"農地的話農業發展地區的有什麼好處可是各位其實"},{"start":2845.632,"end":2869.948,"text":"在區域計畫法民國61年1月31日開始實施以來不管是藍的政府綠的政府都對於農地還有農民都非常的照顧因此如果有農地從農的話就可以享受完整的三保一金哪三保呢就是農民健康保險還有農民自在保險還有農業保險還有農業退休儲金所以有很多我們65歲以上從農"},{"start":2872.531,"end":2880.788,"text":"加入龍寶15年的每個月可以領8000多塊一年領了將近10萬塊這個就是因為他有農地從農的"},{"start":2882.438,"end":2882.758,"text":"國際上可以發揮我們臺灣"},{"start":2912.158,"end":2937.078,"text":"農產品的優勢所以低利的貸款我們因為農地紅樓的我們就會給這個這長期以來都是這樣做還有在我們PowerPoint的右邊有各種補助比如說肥料的補助農業環境的補助還有農稻田轉之後還有有機產銷履歷大糧倉還有相關的農業設施還有生產區的養殖等等相關的補助還有我們農田水利設施"},{"start":2938.719,"end":2960.188,"text":"農水路改善等等這些的補助都有長期以來一直都有好那下一頁那又有農民朋友問我們說那農業發展地區裡面不同的分類有什麼樣的差別補助有什麼差別告訴各位你只要是在農業發展區裡面的你的像剛才的這些福利的保障沒有差別福利的保障你300億金那個都有"},{"start":2960.788,"end":2972.679,"text":"但是呢我們是按照基礎建設你如果畫在龍一龍二龍三的話按照他的基礎建設會按照環境的特色我們是用堆疊式的來補貼來強化因為這些農地對於我們國家的這些農地的這個數量的貢獻還有對於生態保衛的貢獻對於糧食安全供應的貢獻以及對於我們所有的這些"},{"start":2987.312,"end":2987.632,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":3005.334,"end":3025.863,"text":"委員會投入按照他的環境來做不同的投入有一些農民朋友問我們說我的農牧用地本來我在做農業使用結果現在被劃到國土保育地區了被劃進去我就不能夠從事農業了其實這一些有一些面積被劃進去但是我們一直在跟內政部來討論是不是也讓他們能夠從農"},{"start":3026.923,"end":3045.707,"text":"所以我們修改我們的農發展條例讓這些人他的稅制方面能夠繼續因為他從事農業雖然被劃進去了這個是低度的低度的這個可能對國土保育長期來看會有影響可是目前還在從事農業所以我們給予他的這相關的稅務都給免稅那另外我們也給予他可以申請產住儲銷相關的這個設施的權利"},{"start":3048.848,"end":3049.108,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":3067.05,"end":3081.682,"text":"說明會的時候有很多人就告訴我們說請問國土計畫法實施的之後我是不是就不能蓋農舍的那我的農業設施是不是就不能蓋的我告訴各位只要農用的話你不要去開這個很大的餐廳去"},{"start":3082.583,"end":3109.703,"text":"在農地上去蓋餐廳或是去蓋工廠那個當然不行可是你如果依照農用的話你隨時就可以來根本不必變更你就可以來申請相關的補助而且還可以繼續來蓋農舍所以這個請各位放心那另外有些人問說那農業設施的興建總面積還有這個規定管制是不是會變嚴其實不會目前的狀況跟將來國土計畫法實施你只要是農地農用的話"},{"start":3110.163,"end":3133.2,"text":"完全按照現在的狀況所以不會有任何改變因為很多農民就很擔心被劃進去的融融融融之後就永遠就要等到5年之後縣市政府才做一個通盤的檢討的時候才能夠變更其實不是這樣子你只要農用完全不受到影響下一個就是有一些人就問說國土計畫法實施了之後這個才華會變大"},{"start":3135.021,"end":3135.141,"text":"主席"},{"start":3159.512,"end":3182.837,"text":"大型污染工廠的開發就是非做農用那這樣的話可能會被罰30萬到150萬這個地區縣市政府他們會按照實際的狀況去開發那另外有刑事責任是什麼呢做一個大型違規還是污染人而致使人家的生命受到威脅我想我們每一個人都不希望因為空氣的污染或者是說有一些違規的工廠在農地裡面那造成"},{"start":3183.277,"end":3183.297,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3202.168,"end":3227.116,"text":"委規或者是故意要去做危害其他人或危害國家社會的事情所以其實違反國土計畫法裡面的相關規定不是像外面所講就會被罰五百萬不是就在圖面上各位請各位參閱那另外最後一點就是有很多人認為說我這個被劃入農會發展區我就永遠變成農奴其實各位這個農奴是沒有土地的或者是過去真的是被這些"},{"start":3228.336,"end":3229.478,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":3244.261,"end":3258.881,"text":"民國63年到現在50年當中其實藍營的政府綠營的政府都很積極地投入照顧農村還有農地這一塊我們在過去已經從105年到現在8年8年當中政府投入了一兆1780萬"},{"start":3260.964,"end":3261.184,"text":"國土計畫法修正"},{"start":3288.866,"end":3300.562,"text":"省議會其實也可以做調整並不是說被變更或者是已經被化設為龍一到龍五之後就永遠翻不了身不是這樣子地方政府會按照社會經濟的進步還有當地的這個"},{"start":3303.493,"end":3303.873,"text":"國土計畫法修正"},{"start":3321.991,"end":3342.653,"text":"合作推動之下能夠把這一些不實的傳言或者是有一些疑問我們可以來繼續來說明讓我們都很清楚而且每一個人的疑慮可以獲得解惑那這樣子的話讓我們在105年當時馬英九總統時代所制定的這個法還有很多我們社會上很關心國土完整性的"},{"start":3343.194,"end":3344.175,"text":"國土保安委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3362.183,"end":3377.537,"text":"今天主要的目的就是要來聽聽各位學者專家以及公民團體還有相關出席的這些委員給我們的指教非常感謝各位希望能夠多多支持也能夠來不斷的來給我們更多的指導謝謝 謝謝各位好 謝謝胡市長那我們接著要請專家學者來發言"},{"start":3389.205,"end":3415.777,"text":"其他單位的報告請大家自行參閱他們都有提出書面那我們會刊登公報那我們接下來請專家學者發言首先本席要特別說明我們現在實施的國土計畫法是在立法院第8屆的立委共同討論之下所訂定出來的"},{"start":3418.139,"end":3431.413,"text":"當時第8屆的時候就三個版本在討論一個是國民黨籍的邱文彥委員提的版本第二個是民進黨籍的林淑芬委員提的版本第三個就是行政院的版本"},{"start":3432.634,"end":3433.035,"text":"秋文彥教授"},{"start":3464.464,"end":3480.266,"text":"謝謝主席在座各位委員各機關代表各位學者專家還有媒體朋友們大家早安非常榮幸引受大院的邀請來參加今天的這個公聽會也特別感謝朝委的這個指派"},{"start":3481.367,"end":3495.702,"text":"我今天因為有非常多的專家學者在場都可以從各種不同的角度來看待這個問題我緊究這個第三階段的國土計畫法是不是延期提供一點個人的前線供大院來做參考"},{"start":3498.378,"end":3514.025,"text":"2009年莫拉克颱風發生的時候中南部遭受到非常重大的損害特別是小林村滅村那個情況非常的淒慘當時我是環保署的副署長曾經到了八軍團去參加聯合救災"},{"start":3515.405,"end":3537.028,"text":"我印象裡中嘉賓委員當時是副縣長也在場所以那種情況在國人遭受這麼痛苦的一個情況山河這麼破碎的情況所以當時的總統馬英九先生就特別宣告了樹定國土計畫法讓家園更安全是政府最莊嚴的承諾"},{"start":3539.338,"end":3561.564,"text":"所以這個我們可以看到國土計畫法的第一條就是明文的這個昭告了我們這個國土計畫法其實是一個框架性的這個法案它最主要的目的一開始就是因應氣候變遷確保國土安全所以維護國民民眾的這個安全但是也促進產業的合理的分派跟資源的保育讓我們國家能夠邁向永續"},{"start":3563.985,"end":3582.279,"text":"所以當時我非常感謝我們有很多跨黨派的委員像高金素美委員鄭天才委員林淑芬委員田秋靜委員還有很多跨黨派的委員共同支持才通過這個法案這個法案其實在民國86年就以國土綜合開發計畫法的名稱"},{"start":3584.401,"end":3608.975,"text":"送到立法院五進五出立法院最後經過了23年的過程當中才在第8屆委員的任期最後一天晚上10點半通過所以是非常非常不容易的一件事情但是今天實施了將近8年那我們有很多的委員還有各界的關心都是我們非常的敬佩我們也覺得有相關的問題必須要去進行處理"},{"start":3610.616,"end":3631.689,"text":"但是內政部也了解這個問題也持續在溝通學者專家也在這方面提供很好的稿件但是今天國土計畫法的實施日期要不要延到從4年變成6年時間會不會太倉促我們可以看到國土計畫法的過去的歷程我們在立法的過程就23年"},{"start":3633.271,"end":3644.405,"text":"實施到現在8年一個國家的法律超過31年還沒有辦法落實我是覺得這個是不可思議的我認為說會不會太倉促從這個時間上面我們已經花了30年的時間超過30年的時間"},{"start":3650.353,"end":3678.978,"text":"但是是不是要延期當然有相關的問題我們必須要去克服但是是不是能延期也是要考量各種不同的因素我提供幾個淺見首先是針對有很多的意見或者提案都提到我們現在的執法還沒有完全發布我想內政部已經有特別的宣告了在今年的12月那麼這個相關的執法會全數發布所以這個部分"},{"start":3679.918,"end":3707.267,"text":"我們很希望內政部這邊能夠盡快的完成相關的立法當然比較重要的像土地使用管制規則現在應該送到內政部的法規會馬上就要進行審查但是有些的從區域計畫轉軌到國土計畫有一些轉軌的辦法可能有點民時不是很相符我舉個例子來講以新北市的鼻頭角到山雕角"},{"start":3708.047,"end":3728.221,"text":"東北角的國家風景區或者是海洋委員會是化成海洋保護區但是我們國土計畫法因為現況的這個原則只能化成城鄉發展地區所以這個是民時不符所以這個轉軌的辦法擁有這個檢討的一個空間我覺得這個部分在未來通盤檢討或者是說通案處理的時候應該要進行討論"},{"start":3735.566,"end":3759.313,"text":"延期會不會造成其他更大的一個問題我比較擔心的就是延期恐怕是鼓勵了更多的農地的違章因為目前為止農地的搶建的情況違章的情況可能更糟糕這個破碎化的情況可能也是更為惡化我們有沒有能力來處理這是一個老問題了所以農地的保護是非常重要"},{"start":3759.733,"end":3760.433,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":3780.083,"end":3807.756,"text":"我們內政部還在審查去會刊的時候發現他已經完工了地方政府也發了建築執照所以這種情況是讓我們非常的擔心農地的破壞可能在後面就是在未來的延續兩年之後我們難以處理那農業補償剛才胡市長也特別講了非常多的一個方案我們希望這個方案能夠盡速定案當然從法律上面我們也有專家學者"},{"start":3808.456,"end":3808.856,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":3832.661,"end":3853.592,"text":"已經提出了這個國土功能分區圖如果我們要撤回或者我們停止審查那我們必須要考慮一下行政成本還有這個我們工作尤其是中央到地方各個級的這個專業的規劃人員他們人員的士氣以及公平性的問題各縣市的公平性的問題"},{"start":3854.452,"end":3868.879,"text":"我粗略的估計到目前為止行政的成本每一個縣市大概補助了兩三千萬中央的行政成本大概四億我沒有詳細的數字可能的成本已經超過幾十億"},{"start":3870.08,"end":3893.349,"text":"所以這個延後我們是不是要重來也是必須要去考慮的一個問題所以我的建議目前為止相關的問題不是不能解決那應該是維持說我們現在的這個法律進行來討論也許我們在起算點可以再重新再考慮提前或者以狀況各縣市的狀況來做分批的考慮"},{"start":3894.656,"end":3902.583,"text":"那相關的議題有爭議的時候是不是可以像過去我們在環保署處理這個永陽事業廢棄物的問題因為環保團體認為當地有這個斷層那後來呢當然這個開發業者是認為說沒有斷層那麼最後環保署成立了一個"},{"start":3914.213,"end":3938.539,"text":"專家小組這是爭議雙方的各方推派代表然後最後處理一個用一個大家共同決定的一個方式來處理那最後開花的結果就發現真的有斷層這個案子就終結了所以我認為今天中央跟地方或許互信不是那麼的穩固那也許成立專家小組處理這個議題應該是可行的方法"},{"start":3939.259,"end":3964.974,"text":"當然國土計畫法也特別提到不管是農業、交通、水利等等各部會應該有部門計畫來跟相關的國土計畫結合我們也希望說國土計畫還有一些調整的空間但是可能重要的就是整體規劃是不是可以融合鄉村地區的整體規劃把地方的發展需求也能夠融進去最後幾張照片給大家看一下"},{"start":3966.034,"end":3989.335,"text":"這是日本的北海道大家可以看到它的農業的發展保護非常重要城是城 鄉是鄉這個是我在今年7月到冰島的路上看到巴黎的這個國土你可以看到它們的農地保護得這麼好所以我期待我們在這同心協力追求這個社會跟國土保育的共好第三階段的國土野計畫的延期"},{"start":3990.356,"end":4008.553,"text":"不是唯一的解放所以我個人並不贊成要延期當然在兩個禮拜以後氣候變化的會議要進行討論特別提到說我們負得起的能源跟永續的城鄉所以我們很期待呼應"},{"start":4009.053,"end":4011.875,"text":"國際聯合國氣候變化會議第29次會議團結一致共創綠色世界保護我們國家的農地讓農民獲得合理的對待但是我們的國土計畫應該要儘速讓它實施落實以上是這個前件請大院參考謝謝"},{"start":4036.496,"end":4041.687,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請政治大學地政學系的教授鄭安庭鄭教授"},{"start":4052.821,"end":4079.646,"text":"主席今天所有參與的委員以及專家學者先進大家早安非常榮幸今天可以受邀來參與這個草案的公聽會我在這邊其實要特別謝謝我們主席因為主席其實當時也是國土計畫法的領銜的提案人之一也就是說今天的這個國土計畫我們在推動它並不是由一個單一個或者是單一部門"},{"start":4080.546,"end":4110.349,"text":"他其實是當時是跨黨派而且是很多的部門去齊心協力的那也一路走來也經過了9年的這個相關的一個事件那我今天主要要訴求的重點是因為最近我聽到外界一直在爭執說國土計畫是一個剝奪地方民主的一個這樣子的一個計畫體系那其實我一直都很關心地方父權不管是在經濟部或者是在內政部我在做相關的一個研究的時候我都主張要把權力回歸給地方"},{"start":4111.069,"end":4134.055,"text":"當我聽到這樣的一個說法的時候我覺得跟我的想法有很大 認知有很大的差異所以我今天就針對這個部分來講來跟各位來做報告因為有些東西我覺得是必須要去澄清那剛才其實邱教授講得非常的清楚因為他當時跟幾位委員包括主席在領銜這個提案的時候是因為看到了我們半個世紀以來台灣國土面臨到很大的問題"},{"start":4134.995,"end":4149.283,"text":"第一個很明顯的是氣候變遷我想這個不用贅述我們今年的一個暴雨也不是只有今年我們還有的時候會遇到旱災我們還有很多的地方地勢低滑的地方的民眾他生活上來講會持續遇到這樣的威脅"},{"start":4151.885,"end":4174.825,"text":"農業發展地區的整個秩序長期以來我們也很擔心這個東西會影響到什麼會影響到我們整體的糧食的安全所以各位可能還記憶猶新的話在十幾年前食安問題這件事情它是我們所關切的這個東西會影響到我們所有的家庭對於台灣的農業的信心會直接影響到我們農民的一個收益"},{"start":4175.906,"end":4194.868,"text":"這則是土地使用的一個不相容造成的環境外部性這個就是剛才邱教授他在講到的包括一些在不應該長工廠的地方長工廠或者是不應該住人的地方但是並沒有一個好的一個配套那這個會讓公共設施沒有辦法進去最後由於過去的一個制度他是直接倉促的就實行"},{"start":4195.268,"end":4210.26,"text":"區域計畫在實行的過程當中不像我們現在有這麼多的民主的一個機會去做溝通跟參與所以它對很多的群眾在做土地使用上造成了很不合理的一個現象這個東西在廟宇會出現在原民的地區尤其是"},{"start":4210.82,"end":4231.397,"text":"所以在這樣子的一個考慮之下其實立法院非常感謝立法院在9年前推動了這個整個國土計畫法那它改變了一些事情其實也是我們當時的一個主要的一個目的第一個原本的區域計畫時代它是給每個第一個身份它才不管你這個當地居民你的想法跟生活到底是什麼"},{"start":4232.017,"end":4258.372,"text":"可是國土計畫體系它是其實是主動你先去想我這個地方要怎麼使用我們可以有機會再回來去調整土地使用的一個編制這個是跟過去一個很大的差別一個是從上面畫色土地就是我們學地震的對不起這是我們的鍋我們可能根本搞不清楚你新竹縣這個地方的生活狀況可是我們直接跟你編為農牧用地我們可能直接搞不清楚你這個台中或者雲林這個地方它有什麼生活需求我告訴你這是保護區"},{"start":4259.639,"end":4286.686,"text":"但是未來其實是你地方的對於這個地方你有什麼想像你去先以你的規劃的想像去想接下來再來討論那我們土地應該怎麼做調整所以它的順序是顛倒的但是同時都存在用地跟規劃第二個就是它鼓勵的是整體性的一個開發跟使用而避免零碎性我們看到左邊跟右邊現在區域計畫體系所面臨到的狀況由於它是按照土地去做使用"},{"start":4287.586,"end":4315.942,"text":"有的時候你可以做變更但是變更的狀況之下它不會去看到你整體性的一個發展因此它會出現我們左圖經常看到的一個農地上面來講我們可能中間有一小塊可能就一公頃它做工業使用那另外可能在另外一個部分上來講聚落當中中間有一兩公頃它做工業使用那未來的國土體系它會希望盡量把這個東西稍微推一下稍微推一下能夠讓它做一個整體性的一個規劃跟整體性的一個發展"},{"start":4316.542,"end":4330.578,"text":"防止左邊這樣破碎性的一個使用第三其實也是我們在講到的各位回想一下10年之前其實能業部門也好產業部門也好原民部門也好都有對土地使用有很多意見"},{"start":4331.459,"end":4353.865,"text":"但從來沒有一個機會有一個平台可以像現在大家有一個機制互相對應這中間我特別感謝我們經濟部的一個那個員管局他們的全身工業局其實是第一個他去認同這件事情並且去制定他的空間政策也因此很多地方過去幾年有沒有發現在申請產業區只要你是符合國土的想法都沒有遇到困難"},{"start":4354.785,"end":4379.63,"text":"環保團體對這件事他也比較認同然後政府在推動的五大園區也順利都推動所以過去幾年我們在做產業發展地方在推動產業的時候因為國土計畫這樣的概念已經進入了在這個部分上來講他其實遇到相對少的一個困難那現在據我所知農業部門跟能源部門他也在想說針對國土他去架設一個相關的政策讓各個部會可以溝通"},{"start":4380.39,"end":4399.851,"text":"所以國土它其實是一個比起現在的區域計畫它更動態檢討並且它在一定的管理下它去自由地方自由去運行這中間五年檢討一次這件事情大家可以討論一下也許這個時間可能有點爭議但是剛才董事這邊有講到它的五年值得並不是"},{"start":4400.512,"end":4402.234,"text":"5年前有人在談半導體嗎其實我們知道5年前有半導體可是壓力沒有那麼大"},{"start":4417.233,"end":4439.246,"text":"這些五年有人在談AI嗎 沒有所以世界的變化比我們想像的再想像的還更快因此我其實一直主張要加大地方政府跟地方的民意代表對於整個空間的參與權所以國土計畫其實是在大家努力之下他把權力實質規劃權力交給地方政府以前做區域計畫區域計畫的主管機關跟規劃機關都是中央部會"},{"start":4442.788,"end":4456.744,"text":"國土計畫它是落實地方自治的一個最重要的關鍵這一點我想要跟可能有一些誤解的一個地方好朋友地方政府跟地方的民意代表還有我們立委先做這個報告跟澄清那現在我們的確有遇到一些問題比如說有些地方比較複雜"},{"start":4457.665,"end":4457.785,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4477.336,"end":4491.449,"text":"我個人還是贊成他能夠如期上路因為就像剛才邱教授所講的我們立法院所通過的一個法案我們希望他能夠照我們當時的期程去做但是我們也不忽略技術上我們所遇到的一些問題因此我個人會建議"},{"start":4492.95,"end":4507.157,"text":"針對這三分之二的縣市他如果已經做好準備了他沒有辦法再等下去我們應該讓他有機會去開始地方政府帶著地方的民眾去討論我們未來國土跟空間的分配"},{"start":4507.977,"end":4523.711,"text":"至於如果真的沒有辦法還沒有準備好的這些縣市如果有可能也許是分批讓它上路那這樣子的一個好處是在於什麼呢好處在於說已經照原本期程所完成的這樣子的一個工作它不至於白費"},{"start":4524.392,"end":4553.285,"text":"我們可以看到幾個縣市他已經完成了新竹市花蓮縣他都已經完成了這表示他們已經做好相關的一個準備更重要的是一個計畫如果10年沒有上路的話那其實他一開始所想像的東西跟現在的當前的狀況還會有很大的落差我是比較擔心如果我們再延期的話那連全國國土計畫都必須重做不然這整個的一個未來這上路的情況可能就遙遙無期以上做這樣子的一個報告跟分享謝謝"},{"start":4558.897,"end":4561.12,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請徐宇貞委員"},{"start":4573.672,"end":4587.262,"text":"主席還有今天與會的各位官員還有各位專案學者以及各位委員大家早在民國104年12月的《國土計畫法》立法通過之後因為為了確保國人的糧食安全所以全國劃設了81萬公頃的這個宜維農的這個面積那為了這些農地"},{"start":4593.507,"end":4607.884,"text":"未來這些農地也沒辦法隨意的變更而農地的價格遠遠也不及住宅用地工商用地所以損害農民的權益甚巨加上受規劃的縣市也沒有獲到合理的補償所以連帶的也影響到農業縣未來的發展"},{"start":4610.006,"end":4610.866,"text":"中文字幕剪輯及剪輯"},{"start":4638.353,"end":4638.673,"text":"全國最多優良農地"},{"start":4653.57,"end":4663.938,"text":"為了發展地方很多都為自己保留比較大的彈性盡量減少農醫的畫設標準但是雲林縣畫設了目前雲林縣畫設的農醫的面積高達60839公頃大概佔全國的21.8%而化為農業的面積在26641公頃而這些土地被限制只能做農用而農地的面積畫設過大已經影響雲林縣的未來的一個發展"},{"start":4682.612,"end":4693.587,"text":"所以說是不是我們看一下這個同樣是農地非常多而且是農地的面積也高於雲林縣的屏東來看它的農醫的面積只劃設了5776公頃而農二劃設了61685公頃"},{"start":4700.515,"end":4712.879,"text":"所以我們可以看到這個部分我們要求中央是不是可以有一致的畫色標準是不是如果雲林縣可以比照這個屏東縣的畫色標準的話雲林縣農業的面積就可以從60839公頃減少到5836公頃"},{"start":4717.501,"end":4743.739,"text":"所以這樣子才有辦法減少雲林縣農地被判死刑的面積也才能讓精華土地留下來被妥善的利用所以在這邊也要求我們中央應該是要有統一的畫色標準另外就是農一跟農二的差異其實目前很多農民都還搞不清楚而農業部的具體的補償方案也沒有遲遲公告而且還有我們一些執法也尚未公佈所以"},{"start":4744.279,"end":4764.66,"text":"為什麽會有基層農會也不曉得怎麽跟農民說明因此有99%的農會也反對國土計畫法如期的上路所以修法展演是在必行而我們來看一下為了保障國人的糧食安全而政府立法限制農民的農地的使用致使"},{"start":4766.162,"end":4770.288,"text":"農民濃縮損失而政府應該編列預算給予補償依照中華民國憲法第15條的規定人民的財產權應該予以保障那在釋字第440號也指出國家機關依法行使公權利"},{"start":4781.183,"end":4809.322,"text":"民眾的財產遭受損失形成個人的特別犧牲時國家也應予合理的補償但是到目前為止也沒有看到我們目前有關的機關提出良好的對策與補償方式那我們可以看到其實我們現在很多農地目前都算是不良的農地現在都可以作為光電的設用租金一公頃大概是一年是40萬"},{"start":4810.983,"end":4811.304,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":4832.503,"end":4860.769,"text":"那我想到目前為止草野立委總共提出了國土計畫法第45條修正草案總共有18案而委員們也接獲很多的陳情跟抱怨全國農民都對即將上路的國土計畫法感到憂慮希望能夠展延實行那本席也有提案希望能夠施行的日期再展延兩年讓中央有更多的時間可以制定更完整的配套跟補償的政策"},{"start":4861.249,"end":4877.674,"text":"也讓地方有充足的時間可以跟民眾來溝通說明白謝謝好 謝謝謝謝徐議政委員接下來我們請花蓮縣秀林鄉太魯閣獵人協會理事長鐵蠟遊盜理事長好 繼續"},{"start":4890.946,"end":4918.636,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位機關的代表大家好建議關於國土計畫法的修訂希望能夠增列乳下第一個就是增訂本法適用涉及原住民族土地跟權利者依照原住民族基本法辦理"},{"start":4921.019,"end":4929.449,"text":"本法這個例子可以參照以下三點提供建議第一個就是太空發展法第12條第5項"},{"start":4932.714,"end":4957.821,"text":"全項發射場域涉及原住民族土地及權利者主管機關會同原住民族委員會一原住民族基本法辦理參照二海洋保育法第五條後段中央主管機關應會同中央原住民族主管機關"},{"start":4959.501,"end":4967.329,"text":"並且依原住民主基本法及海洋基本法的規定辦理參照3花東地區發展條例第8條"},{"start":4972.949,"end":4997.731,"text":"縣主管機關針對花東地區原住民族生存保障與文化保存因依原住民族基本法的規定擬定相關的計畫納入綜合發展實施的方案這個是參照提供建議第二個就是建議附帶決議列入如下兩點"},{"start":5000.796,"end":5021.15,"text":"主管機關因盤點國土計畫法跟原住民主基本法的關係不得違背原住民主基本法並且研議方案求促兩者之間的關係以保障原住民主的權利"},{"start":5023.081,"end":5051.354,"text":"互代決議二主管機關實施國土計畫法應依照嚴峻民主自治法規與政策進行調整以保障嚴峻民主的權利補充說明我們嚴明會在今年的8月就說明未來要將嚴峻民主自治列為重要的政策"},{"start":5053.309,"end":5076.228,"text":"過去在馬英九執政的時候也是在講這個話要把這個當為重要的政策一直到現在現在的總統也非常積極在提所以這個是不分藍綠都希望推原住民自治了我們原住民非常的期待能夠落實這項政策"},{"start":5078.47,"end":5078.69,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5106.946,"end":5112.992,"text":"謝謝接下來請都市計畫技師公會全國聯合會理事長屈恩喜理事長"},{"start":5124.235,"end":5140.262,"text":"主席各位委員還有我們各位專家先進大家好我這邊是代表都市計畫計時工會全聯會國土計畫這件事情從我們在很多年前大家就一直很期待的事情"},{"start":5140.902,"end":5141.962,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":5163.687,"end":5189.666,"text":"那在這個狀況之下包括像是國土計畫國土法裡面的第15條都有通盤檢討定期的甚至還有一些事實因應的處理那另外就是我們知道在國土計畫裡面有授予地方政府更多的一個權限也就是在國土計畫的理念下面其實因地制宜這件事情更能夠有一個好的一個發展那當然就是說國土計畫它涉及的部門也非常的多"},{"start":5190.306,"end":5191.267,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":5209.436,"end":5220.064,"text":"總體的方向確實會比我們過去的一個方式來更好那也是為什麼我們覺得說在這個過程中我們要去比較積極當然所有的問題不是馬上能夠解決的"},{"start":5223.506,"end":5223.686,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5242.376,"end":5259.302,"text":"當然大家會關心的是執法的部分這也是配套要去努力剛剛在國土署也特別提到了14項執法裡面在已經有9項公佈了其他的也會在年底特別是我們最關心的那個土地使用管制規則這個部分那這個也是"},{"start":5260.162,"end":5260.182,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":5290.622,"end":5316.321,"text":"嗯應該是說溝通的平台我們也很願意協助地方政府還有各個部會來做一個比較好的溝通那國土署在這幾年也特別請我們協助包含像是輔導團啊或者是甚至我們自己的一個專業訓練所以我想應該是這麼說我們都走在對的路上那至於比較技術面的問題包含像是剛剛講到的幾個"},{"start":5319.236,"end":5335.611,"text":"委員會特別提到的其實這個都有一個特別專案處理原則我想國土署應該也會來做一些努力我們也希望必須重點是每個民眾的權益我們都要透過一個溝通的方式這也是未來"},{"start":5336.252,"end":5360.038,"text":"我們在角色上面希望能夠給予更多的協助溝通、對話那在這次的公聽會我也覺得滿榮幸的能夠被受邀那未來我們也希望在這裡面包含像是剛剛幾個專家提的我們能夠有更多的一個溝通那未來是產、觀、學都必須要在國土的一個架構下面"},{"start":5360.518,"end":5361.358,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":5387.19,"end":5404.063,"text":"其實產業的發展還是要扣合除了國家政策還有地方對於未來發展的定位是怎麼樣去思考的所以如果有地方有一些想法在這個階段裡面除了通盤檢討還有一個很重要的機制是一個城鄉區的"},{"start":5404.804,"end":5405.404,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":5430.851,"end":5452.76,"text":"所以我們在這邊是希望能夠在大家有一些雜音的狀況之下持續的來當作一個很重要的溝通平台來協助我們不管個案的問題或是通案的問題都能夠一併的參與這是以上的我們的建議 謝謝好 非常感謝"},{"start":5460.452,"end":5476.142,"text":"好那我們接下來請麥玉珍委員謝謝主席各位親愛的家人大家早安"},{"start":5478.267,"end":5495.117,"text":"近期國土計畫法的推行引發了廣泛的爭議尤其是在土地使用和社會影響的問題上這個不法案將於2025年正式實施"},{"start":5496.238,"end":5524.016,"text":"指在對土地使用進行全面規劃和管理然而該法的實施過程中面臨諸多的挑戰和質疑首先許多地方政府對於計畫的具體實施時間表表示擔憂多數縣市無法如期完成土地"},{"start":5526.499,"end":5531.304,"text":"國土分區園的國土分區圖的提報"},{"start":5538.995,"end":5556.312,"text":"這使得法律的實施變得更加複雜例如苗栗縣、雲林縣、台中市等其他縣市對中央政府要求表示不滿認為這可能影響當地農業發展的需求並呼應暫緩法"},{"start":5563.735,"end":5564.455,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":5583.706,"end":5606.502,"text":"本黨團立場就希望長官協還有農業各個部會充分溝通不主張延後實施與否其次法律具體內容也引起了社會各界討論和不安國土計畫法"},{"start":5608.012,"end":5616.96,"text":"花定了多種土地的用途包括國土保育區和農業發展區等然而這樣的花分可能會影響到地方的土地使用權特別對原住民的土地及農地的影響"},{"start":5632.973,"end":5651.907,"text":"這使得許多農民和原住民感到不安我認為法律和實施需要考量到地方的文化和社會的特點以避免產生過大的社會矛盾"},{"start":5654.898,"end":5676.907,"text":"另外法律的推行可能會導致土地市場的動盪專家指出非都市的土地的重新劃分可能會引發土地炒作的問題然而一點在過去"},{"start":5678.38,"end":5698.021,"text":"這一點在過去經驗中已經表現得十分明顯例如曾經發生的大補案這就是因為土地徵收和用途變更而引起社會衝突對於新法的實施中"},{"start":5699.4,"end":5727.948,"text":"中央政府與地方政府都需要更加謹慎儘管國土計畫法的推行目的是為了促進土地的可繼續發展和合理的利用但實施的過程的爭議表明政府需要更加謹慎地考量地方需求和影響"},{"start":5729.423,"end":5729.643,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5748.23,"end":5775.022,"text":"國土計畫法的推行引發爭議反映了土地管理在台灣的複雜性與敏感性未來的發展需要更多的對話和協商以便能在促進經濟的發展的同時保障社會與和諧的穩定讓我們大家達成共榮共榮的目標"},{"start":5776.971,"end":5783.997,"text":"請成功大學都市計畫學系特聘教授張學聖教授"},{"start":5808.338,"end":5827.388,"text":"主席各位委員還有與會的各位先進大家好首先感謝邀請能夠來發表一些看法那我想我的發言針對修法中所談到的45條有關時間的問題以及帶到目前國土計畫所產生的一些爭議的問題來提供我的意見"},{"start":5828.974,"end":5847.134,"text":"當然我們現在看到國土計畫問題多多問題非常多所以要多一點時間來討論延後上路這個是可以理解的提案不過我必須講從我對國土計畫的認知延後不會是一個好答案針對國土計畫這一題來講"},{"start":5850.317,"end":5873.408,"text":"我們看到其實很多的民間組織包含到學術單位都在有相關的連署所倡議的事情不外乎就是目前國土農地持續在流失生態環境持續遭受破壞剛才邱委員特別提到從立法至今超過30年所以國土的永續不應該再等"},{"start":5877.776,"end":5897.775,"text":"那這裡面的關鍵之一我想大家很多都在討論農業發展地區南部縣市也提到農業權的問題那我必須講農業權的問題也許我們換一個角度來看其實它是一個國土計畫追求環境社會的公共利益"},{"start":5898.556,"end":5898.896,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5920.72,"end":5934.458,"text":"在之前大概6月7月我們就聽到農業部有有關相關堆疊幾戶的政策當時聽到9月底會有比較明確明朗的政策可是到目前好像"},{"start":5935.544,"end":5958.84,"text":"還沒有所以這個部分自然的對農民來講會有很多疑慮會覺得我的畫社特別是我們在工能分區畫社的時候他是依照土地的條件好的農地叫農醫結果畫社農醫以後變成是懲罰這個是一個不公不義的事情因為你畫社的農醫並沒有對等的資源補助"},{"start":5959.88,"end":5975.416,"text":"所以我們看到農業部相關政策講他的堆疊幾戶要跟國土計畫脫鉤我個人是持審慎的態度我覺得應該要跟國土計畫密切的掛鉤因為國家是一體的"},{"start":5976.337,"end":5998.704,"text":"如果國土計畫劃分了不同類型而農地的補助是一視同仁那你做不同等級的分類就很難推動地方必然會有不同的聲音出現所以我覺得差別補助是必然應該要做的而且農政資源也應該要及早的政策的宣示跟政策的上路"},{"start":6000.142,"end":6010.282,"text":"這個部分我們在部分南部縣市的討論中其實可以聽到農民不是要一萬兩萬的施捨不是這件事情因為農業"},{"start":6012.91,"end":6013.33,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":6038.886,"end":6055.56,"text":"隨便的撒錢所以他在基本給付的同時也要求你農地不能夠過度破碎你要有一定的規模同時堆疊的包含你回應了糧食安全你有青農的政策你有生態的這個政策等等都給予堆疊的補助"},{"start":6056.561,"end":6081.232,"text":"我想這個是公平正義的一環是經濟學上外部效益內部化的一部分是應該要還給農民的那在公正轉型的過程中國土計畫施作的過程中我覺得應該有更大的力道來達成這樣的一個轉型不只歐盟包含我們附近的日本韓國都有類似的做法所以這邊我就不繼續往下講了"},{"start":6082.252,"end":6107.794,"text":"當然在農地中另外被討論的一塊就是有關農地價值的爭議這個農地好像地價比發展用地來得低這個問題我覺得確實國土計畫要增強土地變耕的橫貧機制我們過去在開發許可的時候如果把一塊農地變成產業園區這個產業園區就得到了丁建得到了農基300"},{"start":6109.343,"end":6109.503,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":6121.36,"end":6143.613,"text":"通過保護農地把農地的發展權轉移給其他開發用地就能夠達到一個以供助農的效果我覺得這個在後續國土計畫的滾動修正中應該把這個土地的橫平機制來更加強的討論那其他談到的一些問題譬如發展權不夠啊這個用地不足啊"},{"start":6144.173,"end":6165.507,"text":"我給各位一些資料我們看到就是二階各縣市國土計畫其實都可以劃成二至三所謂的準備要發展的用地目前劃設的面積大概一萬五千公頃一萬五千公頃就是三百公頃規模的園區有五十個我們台灣短期有這麼大的需求嗎我們的農業都計裡面的農業區其實就是都市計畫的預留發展用地"},{"start":6174.025,"end":6195.61,"text":"全國有9萬4千多公頃在這次國土計畫中各縣市願意把這些土地回歸到農業發展區的只有一萬多公頃換言之都市計畫內還可以再發展的用地達8萬多公頃我們真的有用地不足的問題嗎我不認為他是一個真的議題"},{"start":6196.986,"end":6222.439,"text":"是否國土計畫會判農地死刑當才其實在國土署的資料中都看到了國土計畫本身打破了區域計畫的原則所以農業發展地區是用一個產製除消的概念你只要是發展農業其實更是能夠符合農業的這個經營上的需求都能分區無法輕易變更本來國土計畫就是要計畫引導"},{"start":6223.78,"end":6251.098,"text":"如果我們在計畫擬定的發展區以外各別土地都能夠隨意變更那公共利益在哪裡我想這些呢都是國土計畫推動本來就存在啊包括前面的委員多年的努力本來就存在的基本精神如果國土計畫延後其實這幾年國土計畫所做的事情所謂正當但不合法的原住民區的一些建立的問題"},{"start":6254.288,"end":6281.213,"text":"有關種種鄉村地區在解決的問題可能都會被擱置所以通盤來看國土計畫因地制宜的政策合理有序的推動應該要趕快上路那其他所謂圖資不精準等等我想這個都是行政程序可以處理的過去環敏地來處理邊界問題都有相關的經驗那土地價值觀的不同"},{"start":6282.773,"end":6282.893,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6302.557,"end":6303.478,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":6325.374,"end":6334.123,"text":"好謝謝張教授我們接下來請政治大學地政學系副教授戴秀雄副教授"},{"start":6336.89,"end":6354.171,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好我想聽到剛才其實我很高興我在邱老師張老師後面那大體上銜接他們的意見但是有幾點我要提供大家做參考第一點大家有沒有注意到那想事情都是用地在思考一筆一筆土地思考可是國土規劃不是"},{"start":6355.012,"end":6355.032,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6378.871,"end":6405.57,"text":"所以你不可以拿區域計畫法時代那種我在農牧用地上排除我其他使用包含種樹這些使用方式去想像未來國土法思考模式因為現在是先做容領我先做分區下來分區裡面相容理論上都有可能可以用所以請大家可以自己看土地使用管制規則草案的副表1那個圈差表一樣的農舍一路從國保1到農事全部都是可以許可興建而且就在農牧用地上"},{"start":6407.475,"end":6427.442,"text":"所以今天討論的很多東西我必須要講是不是根本是建立在錯誤認知上是我必須要提出來的第一個點因為不是用土地想的而且就是因為要去思考就像一個住宅區我可能還是要有小區因為如果全住宅不好用啊我要買東西怎麼辦所以住宅區可不可以有小型商業 可以"},{"start":6428.975,"end":6444.982,"text":"這個在過去區域計畫法這50年亂搞是沒有的東西而且區域計畫法難道有比較好嗎這個計畫國土計畫是要取代區域計畫區域計畫有什麼問題你到山區裡去看一筆土地超過兩三公頃以上的比比皆是然後地表坡度不均"},{"start":6445.822,"end":6467.994,"text":"那裡面有平地可以蓋房子的因為它整體是林業用地就是不能蓋所以剛才張老師提到的問題是一個非常嚴重尤其住在山區原住民朋友受限特別嚴重明明是合理使用往往在現在的制度下就一直被開紅單那這個問題要不要解決如果要解決現行區域計畫法對不起這是不可能的"},{"start":6468.789,"end":6492.707,"text":"基本上連平地裡面的農務用地現在都因為目的事業別而有做這樣強烈的限制其實都是不合理的情況所以如果你覺得現在制度很棒那OK那我們也許有討論延期的空間如果現有的這個制度就是不合理的而且拖了50年鄉間完全沒做過任何調查跟規劃然後是因為國土計畫要施行因此才啟動調查才啟動規劃的話"},{"start":6496.156,"end":6508.754,"text":"現在的問題如果不靠國土計畫解決是行政部門自己卡關的問題呢還是這個計畫系統有問題其實以我看法不是計畫系統問題尤其包含邱老師剛才提到的"},{"start":6509.761,"end":6528.434,"text":"桃園如果以目前的結構來講包含雲林也一樣你的國土計畫裡已經發布實施寫明了我大概哪些地方是乘23也就是你的後備用地你如果覺得不夠你不是在現階段可以在土地直接變而是必須要回去修自己家的國土計畫"},{"start":6529.833,"end":6542.645,"text":"所以你在現階段跑出來跳出來講說我要更多的產業用地卻不想要去提你已經在外面生效的那個國土計畫這是鬼扯容我不客氣講這是鬼扯再下來農政的補貼這是一件該做的事"},{"start":6550.885,"end":6568.231,"text":"那但是問題是即便歐盟即便德國這個不會放在國土計畫裡因為國土計畫在什麼它處理的是土地的利用它要因地制宜要合一這樣使用所以你不會在台北市裡面畫農衣啊你會畫農衣一定是什麼畫東縱谷一定是西南平原"},{"start":6569.315,"end":6580.71,"text":"因為土地因地制宜調查過它就適合做這樣使用所以你才會在那個地方因為如果連這點都不能做我們不用談國土計畫也不用談任何的國土秩序"},{"start":6582.042,"end":6605.598,"text":"因為要因地制宜因為要物盡其用所以如果這樣反過頭來講我們可以看到另外更現實的問題從1926年的歐吉里德案在美國就承認最高強度的都市計畫限制你的土地使用一樣是核限無需補償因為只要有做任何的規劃一定會對土地使用自由發生限制"},{"start":6606.792,"end":6635.882,"text":"所以一個限制在台灣到目前為止依照大法官的解釋只有公共設施保留地算是特別犧牲一樣的道理國土法跟區域計畫法裡面所形成的農地的限制如果按照這標準說因為農地只能農用那林地也只能林用啊你所有的限制都存在基本上你在都市計畫區你住宅區就是不可以隨便有鐵工廠那請問是不是限制那是不是特別犧牲"},{"start":6638.288,"end":6652.896,"text":"何況憲法保障的不是你的交易價格保障是東西在你手裡的存續保障所以保障這東西在你手裡你能用你能用來賺錢你可以用來處分原則上這個有沒有到達超過社會義務的範疇都有討論的空間"},{"start":6655.799,"end":6682.179,"text":"所以簡單來講如果農業要做加權補償我非常非常樂見這立場基本上跟邱老師跟張老師是一樣的但是它不會是在國土計畫裡做它最大宗正常在國外立法例都是在農政主管法規裡處理因為這個本來就是於農政系統該做至於救窮的問題本來就是社會福利網的問題它不會是國土因為國土計畫只管一件事情土地是不是適地適用"},{"start":6682.779,"end":6699.554,"text":"那除非我們今天講說我們很愛目前的這一個非都市土地使用管制規則那我們再來談慢慢來讓國土計畫實施要不然的話如果他的不合理是不該保留的情況的話那國土計畫完全沒有延遲實施的必要性"},{"start":6700.778,"end":6723.826,"text":"所以這個地方我很簡單的這樣去跟大家講希望大家能夠理解一個很基本的問題農業不是絕對的限制今天來講台灣在老農的世界裡甚至有一種我不知道大家曉不曉得有一種代耕的行業其實可以非常大規模幫他代耕所以事實上包含農民老化的問題都不是無解狀態那更有些縣市其他農業很賺錢"},{"start":6725.435,"end":6726.296,"text":"請問那個要補貼嗎?只因為它是農地所以要補貼嗎?所以這個傷害到農民權了嗎?"},{"start":6745.106,"end":6761.716,"text":"所以這個事情我認為整個要去主張是不是特別犧牲要不要補償以及我覺得最嚴重問題不是補償問題就是說你要把它掛在國土計畫講說這樣子我們不要化農業發展區這是一種大錯因為這是一個想像上的勾連但是沒有真正實質的意義"},{"start":6763.393,"end":6784.541,"text":"所以我想以上很簡單提供大家去做一個參考因為如果按照這種邏輯思考的話基本上不存在任何規劃可能性包含都市計畫在內因為所有的規劃行為一定會對人的財產自由造成限制只是多跟寡所以嚴格來講包含都市計畫之所以現在可以訴訟就是希望透過司法去確認行政權不要爛權不要亂做規劃而這個控制"},{"start":6788.223,"end":6811.136,"text":"不會是透過補貼來處理掉而是要從規劃行為本身行政程序上控制去做到才可以以上提供參考好 謝謝接下來請張家俊委員張家俊委員發言完之後我們休息5分鐘讓大家可以休息使用洗手間"},{"start":6815.365,"end":6838.844,"text":"感謝內政委員會徐昭偉今天排定這場公聽會希望藉由這場公聽會讓國土計畫法能夠更加的完備今天在座相當多的學者專家其中有許多人在8年以前都曾經是參與制定一路看顧著國土法通過的重要推手可以這麼說國土法的大方向是沒有問題的"},{"start":6839.665,"end":6846.031,"text":"利益是良好的然而國土法這樣牽動國家百年大計的大法勢必要有相當多的配套可是大家都知道相關的執法到目前都未齊備這已經是說到不知道該怎麼說了行政機關的不作為我們也拿他沒有辦法其實我都懷疑行政機關自己都不想推動否則為什麼到現在為止"},{"start":6865.928,"end":6891.773,"text":"此法一一都沒有辦法一一的落實包括過去這段時間以來農業部一再說針對全國農地會推出一套堆疊式補助措施雖然並非完全與國土法掛鉤但其對農一農二是否有不同的農政資源投入無不牽動著農地持有人的權益這套措施原本預計9月底要公告但現在已經10月底了"},{"start":6895.294,"end":6897.176,"text":"中午12時至中午12時至中午12時至"},{"start":6906.075,"end":6931.913,"text":"想要說這麼一部利益良好的百年大法它就是讓這些不溝通不作為的行政機關所耽誤了《國土法》攸關著這個2350萬人的權益攸關著台灣未來生存發展我們需要的是一個完整的方案對於推動國土計畫法絕對不能抱持著先求有"},{"start":6932.213,"end":6956.331,"text":"在求有就再求好的心態絕對不能抱持著先求有再求好的心態否則硬推改革恐怕會比不改革的後果更糟針對國土法實施的問題我以一個農業縣市的立法委員立場在此提出幾項建議希望主管機關能夠有所回應首先就是農業權應該納入國土計畫法為了保障農民的權益"},{"start":6960.994,"end":6986.927,"text":"雲林縣政府在110年就率先提出農業權的主張為什麼要主張農業權因為優良農地它不是平均分布在我們的國土之中有些縣市的農地多有些縣市幾乎沒有農地負擔但糧食安全國家安全是全國各縣市人民都要負擔的責任那不是特定縣市就應該有所犧牲所以我們主張從進城應將農業貢獻納入"},{"start":6991.25,"end":6994.493,"text":"財政跨分權眾內中層加入農業轉移權概念遠程推動農業發展權入法國土法針對農業權基金特別成立特別基金"},{"start":7006.286,"end":7010.049,"text":"農業縣市應配合國家糧食安全的政策那產生的農地財產限制為了平衡農業縣市的付出應該給予這些農業縣市財產的補償那中央應與國土法中載明成立農業權特別基金由此基金來提供相關補償包括挹注成立農業專區發展產業園區甚至農民的補償等相關政策所用那第三呢"},{"start":7036.366,"end":7041.429,"text":"國土計畫法應該納入農業發展權轉移制度針對農地制度亦應由中央統一規劃農業發展權轉移制度依人口及其他發展指標推估各縣市應負擔之"},{"start":7054.577,"end":7074.679,"text":"國家糧食安全之責任而在有農地不足的縣市向農地面積過度負擔的縣市購買以補足其負擔之面積除了可以解決農業縣市為了負擔糧食安全所產生的特別犧牲問題之外更是達成土地公平正義"},{"start":7075.68,"end":7079.662,"text":"因為只有公平只有正義才能夠讓國土法可長可久那第四點呢國土法原定之期程應展延有鑒於農業權為充分獲得保障農村地區整體規劃未入法農業堆疊式補助未出爐相關配套措施能為完善且民眾對於國土計畫法"},{"start":7099.969,"end":7126.676,"text":"能有相當多的意義中央確實應該完成跨部會的溝通以及中央地方的溝通再提出完整配套後再續辦國土計畫法以上這四點建議其實在111年來雲林縣政府就已經陸續送至中央主管機關希望今天的公聽會能讓主管機關更審慎的考慮讓國土計畫法更加的完備謝謝"},{"start":7132.596,"end":7135.388,"text":"好,謝謝張家俊委員那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7145.538,"end":7146.158,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7165.94,"end":7166.261,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7573.561,"end":7581.704,"text":"好 那我們現在繼續開會接下來請逢甲大學督資系特聘教授周天穎教授發言"},{"start":7585.97,"end":7609.018,"text":"主席、各位委員以及在座的各位先進大家早安首先非常開心能夠有這個機會來這邊代表部分的學者所發言的一些意見我想我這邊稍微之前的時候整理了幾份資料我覺得這一種的一個溝通對於整個國土計畫的實施是一個非常好的一件事情但是"},{"start":7610.078,"end":7628.691,"text":"國土計畫相較於所有的一些法律而言的話它一樣有它部分的一些缺失仍然存在那這些缺失裡面也包含了剛剛幾位學者專家以及幾位委員所談到的一些事項那這裡面也包含了像未來發展區的一些界定跟審議的一些時程那有沒有可能"},{"start":7628.951,"end":7629.291,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":7655.327,"end":7671.752,"text":"但區議計畫法裡面現階段裡面仍然有許多是在審議的一些事情這些審議的事情無論是任何一個時間如果進到落日條款的話那在審議中的包含有些已經申請許可有些其實是應經申請許可但是未"},{"start":7672.532,"end":7687.864,"text":"上位許可 類像這些的區塊在未來的區議計畫法的一個落日之後怎麼樣的解決我覺得這些也有相當多的一些干擾的一些事項應該要事先的定義出來那另外土地使用分區的一些調整"},{"start":7688.404,"end":7688.744,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":7710.765,"end":7711.005,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":7727.391,"end":7755.901,"text":"這個圖形是用五千分之一或是一萬分之一甚至兩五千分之一圖形繪製出來而這些區塊現在目前定念的就是國土保育區一那另外在許多的一些其他單位比如說經濟部的山崩與地質地滑地質敏感區的一個五類的一個圖形這些圖形制定出來是國土保育區二而這些圖形當年的一個製作它的比例值它的精度以及它製作的時候的一個目的"},{"start":7756.621,"end":7756.781,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":7775.023,"end":7799.63,"text":"地方政府的權責以及中央政府的權責所以這個部分的一些圖形能不能做一些修正做了這些圖形修正之後土地使用分區才有機會能夠做一些變更那這件事情是什麼時候要開始來做或者是現在目前實際上非常多中央政府其實也在固定定期在做一些圖形的修正那另外大家很重視的原住民族的一些土地使用的法規的一些調整"},{"start":7800.67,"end":7800.69,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7821.037,"end":7840.9,"text":"是不是因為我部分的族民其實他的居住的一個習慣有兩棟的甚至還有一棟的那這些有沒有機會可以化為所謂的微型部落到目前為止其實還沒有一個正式的一些答案那甚至包含這些補償機制我想剛剛在前面的幾位學者專家也談到了"},{"start":7841.681,"end":7870.903,"text":"非常多的一些補償機制那不論是落入到國土計畫法裡面或者是有另外的一些方式對於人或者是對於地的一個不同的補償的方式那這些的補償的法案實際上是還要訂定那這些的訂定包含這些土地所有權人他的財產權減損之後有沒有一個合理的補償那不管是用堆疊式的補償或實質權益的一些保障那這些的一個推行才不會造成過多的一些社會的矛盾"},{"start":7871.443,"end":7888.089,"text":"所以現在目前非常多中央還有地方那甚至還有很多不同的一些代表那身上其實背負了非常非常多的一些壓力那這些壓力對於一個法案對於一個這麼重要的一個法案來討論我覺得是一個好的事情"},{"start":7888.809,"end":7903.917,"text":"因為有這樣子的一些討論的方式才容易更強化所謂的中央跟地方的一些溝通甚至中央各個不同部會之間的一個溝通所以我這邊提出來我的一個建議的事項"},{"start":7905.031,"end":7918.823,"text":"我覺得延緩其實並不是唯一的解決的方案因為延緩兩年之後剛剛所表達的非常多的一些問題甚至剛剛前述的一些專家學者所談到的一些問題兩年之後仍然存在"},{"start":7919.847,"end":7945.442,"text":"所以是不是用延緩能夠做成唯一的一個解決的方案我覺得不盡然而在乎的應該是說現在目前對於非常多的一些疑義的那是不是能夠有比較快速的一個答案能夠出來那這些答案的出來那能不能夠再經過一些比較好的溝通比較好的一些討論那經過這樣的方式比如說在第二階段一個縣政府發布國土計畫的時候"},{"start":7946.463,"end":7967.775,"text":"他所參考的仍然是地形圖的一個方式所製作出來的各類的一個土地分區的一個方式那這種電影圖的一個製作出來是在110年4月30號公告那如果按照明年的一個時間其實是五年的一個期限五年的期限本來就可以執行所謂的一個國土計畫通盤檢討"},{"start":7969.335,"end":7992.821,"text":"所以是建議如果無法延緩在明年實施國土計畫的時候同步推動通盤檢討讓有些有爭議一些區位甚至於包含很多在地方政府裡面現在目前對一些未來的發展區甚至有一些現在目前正在進行鄉村整理規劃的一些區塊也能夠順利的配合通盤檢討"},{"start":7993.761,"end":7993.781,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8015.276,"end":8026.293,"text":"中央必須要有一定準則的方式甚至加快一些所謂的土地爭議方面的審議工作現在非常多的地方政府實際上有上百"},{"start":8027.332,"end":8027.672,"text":"國土計畫實施的當下"},{"start":8054.375,"end":8066.295,"text":"是不是就可以針對一些部分的區塊甚至於鄉村地區能夠直接實行通盤檢討甚至於鄉村整體規劃部分能夠做更合一的處置以上的建議 謝謝"},{"start":8070.311,"end":8088.581,"text":"謝謝周教授在下一位發言之前本席在這邊想特別提醒行政單位就是說今天很多的專家學者包含地方政府他們反映的意見也都有書面甚至各地方政府都有"},{"start":8090.882,"end":8117.079,"text":"該縣市的立委也都在這邊發言他們的疑慮我們希望因為在這個所有發言完之後我們會請行政單位來回應我們希望行政單位能夠有具體的一些回應讓我們今天的討論可以更聚焦而且能夠對大家都是為了讓我們台灣的土地運用得更好所以我們這個希望行政單位有所準備"},{"start":8118.319,"end":8146.639,"text":"會在發言完之後請你們來回應好那我們接著我們請地球公民基金會副執行長黃敬廷副執行長大家好謝謝主席和內政委員會的邀請我是地球公民基金會的副執行長黃敬廷那地球公民基金會是一個長期在關心很多不合理的開發導致環境和周邊居民得承受這些開發外部性的一個團體"},{"start":8147.5,"end":8164.002,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":8164.462,"end":8180.03,"text":"一地方居民、原民部落其實每天都在發生的事情那這也是為什麼我們認為其實國土計畫法在當年立法之後已經修過一次要延後上路了那現在又在討論這樣的事情我們認為這是一個不應該發生的事情"},{"start":8183.352,"end":8202.308,"text":"我們的行政部門我們的立法委員以及我們的地方縣市首長都應該依法行政不應該在這個時候又去私訊私訊人民那我想要跟大家說一下這個延後會牽扯到多少事情我們剛剛有看到一個統計其實就是現在的鄉村地區整體規劃其實已經超過台灣全台灣有50個鄉村在進行這件事情了那個標案的總金額早就超過1億了"},{"start":8208.353,"end":8223.831,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":8223.931,"end":8224.051,"text":"公職委員會議"},{"start":8245.896,"end":8269.762,"text":"我們要等到規劃到100分120分甚至200分之後才可以上路的事情他是一個在台灣的民主國家裡面他是一個必須不斷不斷的討論必須不斷不斷的調整符合當時的時代當當下的需求而一直一直在做調整的規劃沒有最100分的規劃只有不斷調整的規劃這個也要跟大家講這是我學習到的事情"},{"start":8272.444,"end":8290.823,"text":"公聽會有一些提綱我稍微講一下就是說第一題是說要延後或是暫緩實施其實我覺得是真的沒有必要第二個就是這個立法的意旨國土計畫立法的意旨其實就是本來的權利本來你是合法權利就會被保障的"},{"start":8291.343,"end":8319.591,"text":"他不會因為國土計畫上路之後突然權利被收走不會有這樣的事情這個大家一定要知道以及國土計畫的精神其實是要因地制宜計畫引導使用的剛剛周老師也有提到圖資啊環敏區的這些修正這麼多年來二三十年來機關都沒有動力做修正但是一出現了國土計畫大家就開始努力的要去修正它了這個是一個非常好的動力我要跟大家說明那如果各個縣市"},{"start":8320.791,"end":8336.283,"text":"他們做不完或者是他們不滿意現況怎麼辦剛剛很多老師也都提到了馬上開始做通盤檢討我們現在的桃園市就在做了你如果對於你2021年的縣市國土計畫你自己寫的計畫你覺得現在已經要調整了現在趕快統檢趕快做這個調整"},{"start":8341.727,"end":8351.292,"text":"很快的國土計畫明年5月上午之後你就可以再做調整了這個不會有任何凍結的問題這個是要大家知道的事情再來就是"},{"start":8353.776,"end":8380.709,"text":"剛剛也有很多委員或者是不同的發言代表提到說我們有特別犧牲如果我的土地被劃到農業發展地區會有特別犧牲我想要跟大家講一個觀念就是大家想想如果今天我的土地被劃入了住宅區限制了發展成為商業區導致台積電可能沒辦法在我家的土地上蓋我是不是也要補償"},{"start":8382.433,"end":8394.041,"text":"這個是有合理嗎?所有的限制很多都是因為公共性、公共利益不是說每一種限制都是要補償的這個事情我們如果無限上當然來談補償就會沒完沒了好像我的土地的價值很低都要國家來補償一樣這個是我覺得非常非常奇怪的論述"},{"start":8403.368,"end":8403.628,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8423.517,"end":8442.964,"text":"農民跟農業的發展跟台灣的糧食安全等等的考量其實要回到農業部門的法規比如說農發條例比如說農地利用綜合規劃農地政策白皮書等等的農業部相關的部門計畫來處理才是正軌不是在國土計畫這條路線上去處理"},{"start":8445.626,"end":8446.046,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8466.188,"end":8484.203,"text":"這個政府來到台灣的時期終於出現了國土計畫法可以讓我們原住民的朋友他們本來就居住在這邊可是因為殖民可能是因為土地的一些所有權的問題讓這些建築物他們本來就在使用的建築物或是土地"},{"start":8484.944,"end":8509.882,"text":"明明合理卻不合法的情況下一直一直出現國土計畫是有一個機制可以讓這些合理卻無法合法的建築物或是土地利用終於有機會在這個時代在這個轉型正義大家都在乎歷史正義的時代終於去做一個合法化的路徑了對我們來說對原住民朋友來說這是非常非常重要的一個制度的變革"},{"start":8510.763,"end":8517.065,"text":"再就是我其實要跟我們的在野黨包括國民黨和民眾黨的立法委員陳情一下就是我覺得在野陣營這邊應該要監督的是兩個部門一個是農業部門"},{"start":8526.309,"end":8534.172,"text":"你們必須在國土計畫這個架構下去思考說農業部門是不是很多該做的事情或是該到位的政策可以再加快腳步我覺得這才是一個監督最重要的重點如果農業縣市都覺得很委屈他們被劃到很多農業發展地區好像他們的發展都受限一樣其實應該是要從稅制上面去思考如何搭配國土計畫上路去調整稅款的"},{"start":8556.319,"end":8581.405,"text":"統籌分配的這個問題水平的分配這件事情或者是通盤檢討的時候這些民意代表我覺得大家應該要去做這個監督是把這個地方的發展願景的規劃放在通盤檢討裡面由下而上的從人民開始做討論和尋求共識這才是國土計畫更踏實的公民參與跟重要的改革的精神"},{"start":8582.145,"end":8587.368,"text":"我覺得監督者要做的是監督我們的地方跟我們的中央去落實國土計畫的精神那我認為沒有完美的計畫剛剛這個有提到所以延後上路也絕對不是解決之道也不應該做延緩的動作"},{"start":8598.075,"end":8600.277,"text":"國土計畫法第17條有一個很重要的工具就是要求跨部會整合我們現在的光電發展、能源發展、防災"},{"start":8621.411,"end":8621.671,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員"},{"start":8651.182,"end":8668.071,"text":"謝謝主席今天很多的專業專家都提供了我們地方民意代表包含立法委員也是責成了很多地方縣市的所有表達的一些意向包含國土計畫法的現在的一個推行的一些政策的不滿"},{"start":8669.131,"end":8685.748,"text":"當然很多的專家他們你們所講的我們予以尊重那至於對於國土計畫法的45條包含原稽法的各法條裡面有沒有充足有沒有提出有沒有其他的對原住民的保障這是一個非常實意的問題那"},{"start":8687.95,"end":8705.032,"text":"本席在這個地方特別要提出的是先完成原住民的土地及海域的劃分法徹底解決原住民族人的土地的問題再實行國土計畫後再來研究國土計畫裡面的條文必須要明確"},{"start":8706.634,"end":8706.654,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8721.107,"end":8726.609,"text":"國土計畫法改成一定期限的完成那這個一定的期限完成是要多久要再由行政院來決定大家認為"},{"start":8750.123,"end":8773.615,"text":"這跟一般延長的方式不一樣那很多減稅或補貼的方案都是會寫清楚延長的時間但行政院這樣子來寫一定期限好像就可能變成無限期的延長的感覺所以這個就是我們很多地方的質疑的問題"},{"start":8775.616,"end":8797.456,"text":"國土計畫法的45條有沒有衝突到原住民的保障法第一個剛剛我聽到專家對對我們全國原住民的住宅合法性有些沒有辦法合法性能夠在14萬14萬棟裡面那變成進行學密監禁的來做合法沒有錯這是一條"},{"start":8798.157,"end":8812.852,"text":"但是有很多條我們必須要討論我們請人民會來給我一個書面的一個答案我今天要請教我們有關於國土計畫法對原住民土地的產生什麼影響第一個國土計畫"},{"start":8816.608,"end":8842.452,"text":"為原住民土地帶來什麼樣的改變?第二,原住民傳統領域及傳統海域問題如何解決?第三,國土功能分區有包含原住民傳統海域及使用範圍嗎?第四,原住民的土地、海域及居住正義的問題解決之前為何強推國土計畫法?"},{"start":8842.992,"end":8865.282,"text":"第五國土計畫法以原住民的傳統領域劃分的問題能夠有解決的問題嗎第六國土功能分析劃設後原住民土地還能調整嗎第七國土計畫通過之後原住民土地是否無法自治第八"},{"start":8866.182,"end":8886.556,"text":"國土計畫如何規範原住民土地的建筆力與容積力第九哪些土地功能分析分裂可以蓋原住民的傳統文化建築第十原住民傳統耕作灌輸專期是否受到國土計畫法的限制"},{"start":8888.296,"end":8908.925,"text":"11元族民族特定區域計畫是否受到國土計畫法的限制12國土功能分析劃設後會影響地價稅嗎13國土計畫會影響既有造林補助及禁法補償的資格嗎以上這是種種的問題都還沒有解決之下"},{"start":8910.014,"end":8927.268,"text":"如何來推行國土計畫在明年5月1日實施所以本期建議希望延後6年把地方的因地制宜跟我們很多的土地能夠地方的發展"},{"start":8928.729,"end":8942.294,"text":"然後大家一起統一會審之後再來推行而不是衝突衝突以縣市裡面的意見作為你們最後的決定要執行的以上謝謝好謝謝黃仁委員接下來我們請南投縣仁愛鄉鄉長江子信鄉長"},{"start":8961.094,"end":8984.637,"text":"我們的主席、我們的學員以及臺上的長官以及我們中央的長官以及在座的各位專家、學者還有人民團體大家好我是仁奈鄉鄉長收子派受邀來到這邊來對於這個我們的國土計畫法來做一個小小的一個個人的意見"},{"start":8986.15,"end":8989.034,"text":"紅樓委員阿美竹南投藍祥泰雅竹"},{"start":9003.752,"end":9005.253,"text":"到我的周邊還有我的認識的包括我們周邊的長官或者是對這個議題有經驗的有看法的來做一個田野調查"},{"start":9018.583,"end":9045.415,"text":"我這樣子了解之後不管是我周邊的人或是我公所的人還有我們縣府園民局的人還有當過園民局局長的非常多的我對他們對國土法的一些看法跟建議說真的大家都一字半截這個有點像蝦子摸象一樣摸到腳就說腳摸到鼻子就是鼻子"},{"start":9046.215,"end":9048.137,"text":"所以說這個國土計畫法我們看了它的一個利益其實就剛剛這麼多的展觀貴賓還有我們的教授這樣的一個講解其實它是一個非常好的利益良善的百年大計"},{"start":9063.255,"end":9090.018,"text":"不管是政方反對的還是贊成的我想它是一個非常好的一個政策但是今天為什麼會在這裡辦一個公聽會我想最重要的目的就是它執行的方式有沒有問題我們常常講我本身也是校長出身的所以我們常常講做任何事我們要做對事那就是一個方向那同樣的也要把事做對"},{"start":9090.999,"end":9117.648,"text":"如果方向就不對那怎麼做也沒有用所以看得出來我們這個國土計畫法它是對的方向我想這是大家都非常的認同但是做法上就有很多種就如同舉個例一下我們今天我是南投的要到花蓮有三條路可以走第一條路就是中橫第二條路就是可以從台北過來第三條路可以從高雄"},{"start":9118.646,"end":9119.166,"text":"國土計畫法宣言"},{"start":9140.942,"end":9163.069,"text":"民進黨的立委也收到了我們的選民鄉民的壓力所以說他們也希望能夠暫緩可見的在做法上我們真的要去檢討至於裡面的細節我就不講我只是覺得說一個整體的一個在推動一個政策需要怎麼樣的一個方向跟方式"},{"start":9163.949,"end":9192.049,"text":"我本身也是行政小首長基層中但是以小歸天以廣歸天可以從一些事情的推動上面來解決很多的問題我舉一個例子我們的縣市首長為什麼那麼多會有疑慮其實這個我想執政黨在我們的政府在做事的時候很多也是選舉考量但是很多縣市首長也是選舉考量"},{"start":9193.89,"end":9219.172,"text":"關於這個國土法案就剛剛很多專家寫者也講還有很多我們的張家俊委也有講推動了10年但是為什麼宣導效果不彰這個就很有問題了而且我們的縣市首長因為這個我們說要下放給我們縣市首長去規劃你能保證我們請教一下我們中央長官你們真的確定每一個縣市首長都懂嗎"},{"start":9220.493,"end":9227.986,"text":"他知道後面我推動下去會有什麼後遺症我們的選民我們的姓名市民有疑問的時候他能回答嗎"},{"start":9229.358,"end":9258.004,"text":"然後各中央一定是沒有問題啦但是你到縣市政府的時候他就有問題了他自己裡面的連承辦人都不太了解這個內容是什麼所以後面我們的市民或是縣民在提出問題的時候他也回答不出來那我們鄉鎮市場就更麻煩了我問了半天有聽過說明會的也是一知半解也是不懂"},{"start":9259.031,"end":9283.485,"text":"所以這樣的一個狀況是要一個政策要執行真的要注意它的一個可行性所以我們常常講一個好的政策一定要怎麼樣大家都有共識之後才能做絕對不能再像以前三七五減租十大件事當時可能是明智未開所以你講了半天我們人民不一定聽得懂"},{"start":9284.431,"end":9299.945,"text":"但是現在一定要我們好的事情要行銷包裝才能夠把事情大家有一個共識才能處理好我在做任何事情的時候就一個原則請供我們中央參考"},{"start":9300.97,"end":9312.622,"text":"不要急著解決一個問題創造更大的問題甚至是災難我想這樣的一個政策下去我看到很多影片尤其是雲林開了這個公聽會或是一個說明"},{"start":9317.227,"end":9332.261,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":9332.381,"end":9352.356,"text":"就是在執行上面真的是要拜託我們的中央政府要三思尤其是我們原住民的地方有非常多也有很多非常需要了解的還好我剛剛有跟杜璋我們副主委有做一點短暫兩分鐘的溝通我們以前的一例他有解決了"},{"start":9353.197,"end":9382.132,"text":"是不是但是我們其他的同胞都還不知道啊所以說都有疑慮然後那個去說明的時候是用空拍圖在那邊說明看起來是很近啦實際上從這一個地到這一個地還要繞一公里才能到那個地方來然後我們的村民我們的鄉民提出問題那個教授也講不出答案來所以這件事的問題是層次不窮所以對我們這個政策的一個推動"},{"start":9383.499,"end":9384.54,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":9404.597,"end":9430.137,"text":"中央的或者是比較懂的下來跟我們說明我們提出問題來的時候你們才能夠說明你們才能夠解釋不然你這樣把一般的官員或是一些承辦人去說明我們提問題的時候他也不懂這樣的話會造成更大的民怨所以這樣的話我想是非常不好的一件事情所以最後我還是建議我們的人生"},{"start":9432.899,"end":9436.161,"text":"臺大農經系特聘教授兼系主任張宏浩主任"},{"start":9459.505,"end":9477.406,"text":"主席還有各位長官還有各位與會者大家早安很感謝到目前為止聽了很多的意見我這邊要談的東西可能跟大家剛才談的東西不太一樣因為我不是學法的所以我是學經濟的所以我想要從農地價格來談"},{"start":9481.323,"end":9496.694,"text":"我們可以看一下目前的農業部的對地補貼政策就我的觀點來看基本上它是要經過盤點看一塊農地可以產生多少的效用然後再針對各項的效用去做經濟的評估然後再把它疊起來"},{"start":9499.196,"end":9520.189,"text":"所以對地補貼對我來說概念是這樣我相信農業部現在也在做更多功能的盤點比如說ESG功能還有淨零的功能也想要把它在未來慢慢加進去這是我們現在看到的政策早上胡董也講得非常清楚"},{"start":9521.755,"end":9542.845,"text":"那長久以來我一直對農地的價格有興趣但是很遺憾的是我們目前並沒有官方的數據在談農地的價格所以我們好幾年前開始我們就很辛苦的從那個實價登錄的資料那是全國性的資料然後我們把它開始加收我們看到的狀況是這樣那目前全國的農地"},{"start":9545.546,"end":9565.139,"text":"大概平均每平方公頃是七千多塊但是我們看到了都市農地跟非都市農地的差距是非常的大的那一個是一萬三千多一個只有四千七百多那這個可能就是反映了不同的農地使用它的價值是在這邊"},{"start":9566.543,"end":9588.457,"text":"我們這團隊也有在做長期的看看農地價格的變化這是我們看到的趨勢那個縣就是價格那個bar就是那個交易量所以我們看到農地價格在這幾年你會覺得蠻奇怪COVID以後是一直在有一個相對歷史的數據來說是有在上漲的趨勢好"},{"start":9595.353,"end":9621.187,"text":"下一個問題我們想要回答就是我們看看什麼樣的因素會決定這個農地價格那我們團隊做了三篇的文章第一篇這個文章就是探討那個660平方米可以開放那個那個太陽能使用這個跟政大的林子欽老師的團隊一起合作我們發現那個門一關起來以後農地價格應聲下跌了18%左右"},{"start":9623.169,"end":9640.625,"text":"這個就是一個農地使用方式的改變造成的影響第二篇我們做的研究是探討0.25公頃可以去蓋農舍這件事情對農地價格有什麼影響我們發現你去比較0.25公頃的上面一點跟下面一點發現這個價格差距是還蠻明顯的"},{"start":9643.368,"end":9644.008,"text":"第三篇文章"},{"start":9662.022,"end":9684.991,"text":"臺灣"},{"start":9686.192,"end":9705.281,"text":"大型的數據大數據整理出來的這些結果結論就是我們發現在這個農地的價格上面非農業的規範他帶來對農地價格的影響比農業來的還要多所以我們的這三個文章找到了這個結論"},{"start":9707.879,"end":9720.411,"text":"今天從這個農地價格我們怎麼回來看這個我們目前大家很關心的國土計畫法這個是把我們現在的分區去做一個疊圖左邊這一個很明顯就是農業發展區"},{"start":9725.496,"end":9749.447,"text":"右邊這個是城鄉發展區在某些程度上你會看到他們是有match的但基本上在很多的地方也是沒有match的那今天的主要的爭議大概來自這一個我想與會的農地政要比我更專業但是我們覺得現在最大的爭議在這邊你看很多的公聽會"},{"start":9750.948,"end":9750.968,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9773.069,"end":9795.395,"text":"那這個劃分為什麼會造成那麼大的影響我想主要的原因是來自21條就是有關國土功能分區它的使用的原則如下你看第一區第一類所謂的農一跟農二基本上它使用上的限制尤其是轉非農使用的限制這個力道是不太一樣的"},{"start":9796.315,"end":9796.395,"text":"公職委員會議"},{"start":9812.928,"end":9832.447,"text":"以上就是我們大概想要找的所以我們的主要結論就是可能要有幾個問題可以值得思考第一個就是這個農地補貼的標的是不是只要考慮農地的價值還是應該考慮非農業的價值目前我們看到農業部的做法"},{"start":9832.887,"end":9853.126,"text":"大概是一直在做堆疊式的但是這些堆疊式的都跟農業生產是有直接或間接關係的非農業的價值基本上沒有考量這也是可以諒解的因為這個非農價值本來就是不是農業部的職權執掌的範圍所以一直都沒有在探討這一個"},{"start":9854.648,"end":9870.067,"text":"民眾反映出來的反而是農業去限制它轉非農業的時候價值的落差所以這個是可以思考的一個地方第二個就是現在這個"},{"start":9872.813,"end":9901.704,"text":"我覺得現在在談這個國土計畫法的一個比較大的一個問題就是可能農業部做農業部執掌在做的但是可能內政部在做但是我覺得要把它農業價值跟非農業價值來一起考量的時候應該是要把應該要職權先區隔就是非農的價值我想這絕對不是農業部可以去執掌內可以評估的所以這一塊"},{"start":9902.464,"end":9902.724,"text":"中文字幕組"},{"start":9935.813,"end":9937.279,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請賴慧媛委員"},{"start":9949.316,"end":9965.193,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝首先在這裡先跟我們台大那個張宏浩教授致謝因為本席來自於台南我的選區都是絕大部分是農業那其實"},{"start":9967.112,"end":9991.236,"text":"剛聽到你一席就是國土計畫法修正草案裡頭你提出來的一個農地農地的一個規劃那農地的一個價錢其實這個也是在我們這一次在那個國土計畫法裡頭大家所關心的那我想謝謝今天有這個機會跟大家分享就是國土計畫法本席對於這個修正草案的一個看法"},{"start":9991.996,"end":9992.197,"text":"國土計畫法規劃"},{"start":10013.497,"end":10013.517,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":10030.546,"end":10032.729,"text":"山谷立民爭取在山谷國小西側的農地希望化為農醫"},{"start":10046.067,"end":10046.968,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10075.051,"end":10075.211,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10097.268,"end":10097.748,"text":"中央會議中央會議"},{"start":10120.18,"end":10140.659,"text":"你一定就是說要有一些縣市他就是先走先走的時候這整個國土計畫法他才能順利的一個推動那當然就是說其實我在這裡也特別再提出來就是天災對土地的利用的影響其實他是需要長期評估的"},{"start":10141.44,"end":10169.676,"text":"那本席的選區在台南市那台南市在這一次就是台米颱風就是因為有一些農地受到很嚴重的那個損害那我的後壁還有60公頃的農地被這一次巴掌溪的一個潰堤它所遺跡帶來的這些泥沙掩蓋到目前我們還在進行災後的一個復原跟再重新那個策劃的一個階段"},{"start":10170.737,"end":10170.918,"text":"國土計畫法宣言"},{"start":10182.421,"end":10183.261,"text":"國土計畫法與地方花展必須緊密"},{"start":10202.751,"end":10228.24,"text":"那當然現階段就是台南的大新營區的一個科技產業的一個發展包括就是我的柳科第三期還有經濟部工研院在六甲區是不是有辦法變為是一個機器人的產業園區還有就是大新營科技產業上下游的一個工研院的一個發展的潛力這些建設其實不僅是在南台灣它"},{"start":10230.12,"end":10230.861,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":10254.17,"end":10271.837,"text":"充分的一個銜接這個是非常重要的那如果就是說以台南市政府他提交的一個規劃裡頭他特別提出來我本那個我把它區分為就是說在那個北台南的部分我的選區的11個區裡頭共有72624公頃的一個土地他其中有19.3是國土保育區"},{"start":10280.518,"end":10302.391,"text":"51.9是龍一龍二區超過71.2的土地其實是沒有辦法變更的那台南的產業發展會不會受影響絕對是受影響的嘛所以我也希望就是說在考量未來大新營地區的一個產業發展的趨勢它必須要加速發展的前提之下我們希望就是功能分區的一個規劃"},{"start":10303.812,"end":10331.433,"text":"可以更貼近地方的一個發展的一個趨勢當然我一再的強調就是說大型科技產業的S狼帶這個關鍵的一個拼圖跟地方產業的一個轉型跟國土計畫規劃法其實都有年代的一個重要的一個關鍵性關聯性所以我想就是這個婚期的規劃其實就決定我們地方發展的一個命運"},{"start":10332.233,"end":10334.414,"text":"接下來請雲林科技大學科技法律研究所王福清教授"},{"start":10362.089,"end":10372.727,"text":"主席、各位來賓、大家好我是雲林科技大學科技法律研究所我今天要談的是"},{"start":10373.877,"end":10396.232,"text":"法制面法制面我覺得國土計畫法我是非常支持這個計畫法非常支持但是我覺得國土計畫法少了一個很重要的零件就是補償就是補償條款因為我是留學德國的我當然贊成草案權要公益犧牲草案權要社會義務但是過度負擔的時候"},{"start":10404.458,"end":10405.24,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":10417.163,"end":10445.449,"text":"就我們這個在留學德國的背景還有整個我們台灣這個財產權的保障事實上都受這個叫公益犧牲特別犧牲這個法律思想的影響舉凡特別犧牲就應該受到法定的補償那我想國土計畫法裡面對龍一龍二這個限制性是非常強的非常思想固然龍地可以"},{"start":10446.289,"end":10446.81,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10463.79,"end":10483.679,"text":"大法院一路上都講這個思想包括最近的憲法法院110年憲判之第15號他講什麼呢那個龍田水利啊龍田水利的渠道啊渠道經由私人土地造成私人土地沒辦法完全使用的時候也是要給他補償"},{"start":10484.929,"end":10503.257,"text":"更何況我們對這個農地、農用這種過度的限制怎麼會沒有補償條款呢所以你看我們整個盜版解釋精神其實都要強調一遍只要預約社會所應該忍受的限度的話就應該給補償"},{"start":10504.437,"end":10504.917,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10518.2,"end":10525.002,"text":"當然這個補償也不是只有給這個補償的經濟損失但是我們還是要說這個補償經費也應該益助於成立農業農產專區發展產業園區還有因為雲林縣是一個農業大縣災損也非常嚴重我想這個基金用途也很多"},{"start":10544.247,"end":10544.427,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10565.408,"end":10565.868,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10591.747,"end":10599.936,"text":"草案權限制來自法律,所以法律的限制超出草案權的社會義務性界限的時候就應該有補償條款"},{"start":10605.31,"end":10614.436,"text":"當然知道我們就農一農二對農民的補償限制是非常大的所以我是強烈建議應該在國土計畫法裡面32條之一給他補償的條款"},{"start":10629.79,"end":10635.973,"text":"農民農地農用我覺得是屬於用特別犧牲所以我強烈主張國土計畫法裡面應該有一個補償條款出現"},{"start":10643.117,"end":10667.764,"text":"這補償我想有補償就是社會義務性跟失權之間一個很大的平衡就是什麼叫一個平衡呢就是我們這個農地要有社會義務要農地要有社會犧牲農地要有社會貢獻可是失權要保障所以我覺得這個補償條款就是在公益"},{"start":10668.524,"end":10692.756,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":10692.756,"end":10693.096,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10711.449,"end":10725.343,"text":"舉凡特別犧牲就應該有補償所以國土計畫法一旦增諦了這補償條款事實上也不是什麼新鮮的事因為我們很多法規這麼多法規都有證明舉要特別犧牲就應該有一個補償條款出現"},{"start":10735.161,"end":10748.084,"text":"雲泥縣真的是一個農業大縣第一類優良農地有6萬8百多公頃第二類良好農地有2萬6千6百多公頃所以在全國農業發展地區佔總面積有21.8所以可以證明的確我們雲泥縣農地有貢獻"},{"start":10764.827,"end":10764.847,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10780.848,"end":10781.488,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10804.011,"end":10818.186,"text":"至於我建議的這個國土計畫法三十一條至於這個條文我想這個雲林縣政府都有提供一個書面所以我是支持在這個條文裡面明訂這個以下條款"},{"start":10824.212,"end":10839.716,"text":"第34條之一由中央主管機關對於國土工人分區劃入農業發展地區之人民依其不同分區種類及限制強度應予合理式補償傾向補償應由中央主管機關應別類預算補償對於中央主管機關合波之補償相關費用直轄市縣市政府應專款專用而且補償用途範圍對象公視及設立特別基金"},{"start":10851.198,"end":10852.599,"text":"接下來請台18縣產業聯盟理事長黃廠豪理事長"},{"start":10888.284,"end":10914.451,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位長官還有我們在座的各位先進大家好我是來自嘉義縣阿里山就是台18縣阿里山公路沿線的我是代表我們山上的平地人來這邊發聲相較於原住民來說住在山區的平地人是被遺忘的一群"},{"start":10916.257,"end":10943.302,"text":"就我們嘉義縣來說我們有梅山鄉 有大埔鄉 有番路鄉 有朱祁鄉還有中埔鄉 這幾個有三區的鄉鎮它的人口數是好幾萬我們原民鄉是阿里山鄉阿里山鄉的人口數是5.3千但是我們整個大阿里山地區整個嘉義縣山區的村落"},{"start":10944.266,"end":10947.15,"text":"只有一個村落是太平村有做城鄉規劃"},{"start":10949.389,"end":10977.919,"text":"其他的漢人村的統統最好只畫到龍山最差的就是直接畫進國寶一那這樣子嚴重侵害到我們在地居民的我們原有的生存權我們的土地權跟工作權我們的耕作權我們是希望說我們很卑微的要求就讓我們能夠在我們原本的土地上過原本的生活就好我們不要什麼補償"},{"start":10979.159,"end":10994.407,"text":"我們要求很卑微就這樣希望能夠重視而且山上的平地人不是只有加一線油全台灣其實是占很大多數的但是平地人沒有什麼山上平地人委員會沒有人替我們發聲對啊那我們的這個東西"},{"start":11002.688,"end":11031.894,"text":"跟原住民比起來我們就是差人家一大截我們旁邊的原住民村落雞犬相吻走路五分鐘就到了結果咧他們小到一個零都有城鄉發展區的規劃一個零喔那我們咧農山然後最可以劃到那個什麼國保區國保區你的房子不影響你現在合法居住使用但是未來咧你的房子破了你就只能普"},{"start":11032.984,"end":11047.128,"text":"那你要翻修整件呢你就得用國保一的那個限制去做那你們知道國保一在建築用地的那個容積率容許量變多少嗎10%那我一個30坪的建地我剩10%我要蓋什麼蓋一間廁所嗎"},{"start":11053.906,"end":11076.784,"text":"所以我是希望說能夠重視到而且這個根本就是跟我們的憲法第7條土地權是我們的憲法保障的基本權利我們享有的權利不應該去分種族我們應該尊重憲法第7條給我們不管是任何種族一律平等的對待標準"},{"start":11078.744,"end":11088.696,"text":"我們不要任何補償我們很卑微的只要求說我們在我們的地方能夠按照我們原本生活的方式去生活然後給我們應有的規劃空間"},{"start":11091.731,"end":11115.671,"text":"因為我們一路上來因為我們地區也做過所謂的鄉村綜合規劃我實際上也參與過那一路來所有的公聽會我們都有參加過那很抱歉我剛剛教授說的因地制宜有放彈性給地方政府但是呢送到中央審議委員會就打回去了縣政府只好摸著鼻子回去"},{"start":11116.886,"end":11132.312,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":11132.759,"end":11161.621,"text":"我想起我那個31年前我爸爸他們在衝衝的時候那時候為了爭取山區沿線國有基地的時候那時候我才國中現在我兒子念高中了我還在替我的地方爭取土地權益那是不是我兒子跟我一樣大30年後他還要站在這個地方來爭取他的權益勒為什麼這個問題要這樣一直讓我們世襲下去勒"},{"start":11163.238,"end":11191.032,"text":"這是一個民主國家能夠發生的事情嗎所以我希望說我們沒有那個所謂的家國情懷什麼要那麼遠大的抱負我們很卑微的要求只要我們只能夠在我們故鄉裡面好好的生存下去而已然後另外因為我們有發現到國土計畫沒有針對觀光發展做妥善的配適"},{"start":11192.513,"end":11207.009,"text":"就拿阿里山生理二區他是一個國際級的觀光景點那很遺憾他整個被化為國寶一那代表什麼他以後裡面那些飯店什麼你就只能修不能再建"},{"start":11209.058,"end":11236.873,"text":"對,那這個東西呢我覺得說我們以往的觀念有點錯誤喔你就在山上的地方它就讓你維持現狀你永遠都只能維持下去所以才會發生那個什麼英帝國外面一堆鐵皮屋嘛因為我們鐵皮屋都是國有基地那你只能修那修就只有鐵皮這樣那原本諸約寫的鐵皮屋那你的換約九年換約一次你就要維持鐵皮屋的狀態你才能換約"},{"start":11239.18,"end":11267.441,"text":"這對我們來說是非常不合理的然後對未來觀光的長遠發展也是非常對我們這些在地人看來是沒有明天的一個未來這樣子然後剛剛有有一些教授有提到一些國外的例子像提到北海道啊像法國啊很好啊但是你有考慮到我們的人口密度嗎北海道人口密度是每平方公里66人啊"},{"start":11269.158,"end":11290.384,"text":"台灣人口密度每平方公里600多法國人口密度每平方公里110多個人所以需要說不同的人口密度對土地資源的需求是不一樣的但是很遺憾在國土計畫上面好像都沒有考量到這一點"},{"start":11292.583,"end":11316.538,"text":"希望說各位先進能夠好好的去思考一下那這個法條是好的我也希望它能夠推行下去但我們希望說它在推行的時候能夠盡量的去照顧到所有的居民所有不要去侵害到居民的原本的權益這樣謝謝"},{"start":11322.574,"end":11325.537,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請林黛嬅委員好 那個本席啊針對國土新法倉促上路必定影響民眾權益那我相信今天整場的公聽會執行到現在"},{"start":11342.078,"end":11353.432,"text":"我們大家都非常敬重邱文彥、邱老師、邱教授但是這一路您在推動但是現在公佈至今可以說是用全民大反彈"},{"start":11355.283,"end":11372.457,"text":"來形容現在這個法案所以我也要請我們相關的部門包括內政部主責要很清楚今天我這個國土計畫法上路之後我解決了什麼問題而不是在製造無限的問題我現在看不出你所面對的問題現在所有的民怨"},{"start":11382.216,"end":11383.237,"text":"本席就一一的爬書"},{"start":11409.762,"end":11430.503,"text":"國土計畫的功能延遲繳交這是現況那就是有些縣市基於地方的陳情暗塞太多他算不出來好那第二個國土計畫法的爭議那本席也把我所見所聞來跟大家做個分享第三個國土計畫法的挑戰跟困難第四個民眾權益如何保障"},{"start":11431.084,"end":11431.304,"text":"最後我有具體建議"},{"start":11448.336,"end":11455.662,"text":"好 這個延遲繳交我目前是到原則上113年12月以前內政部國審會就要進入到審議了那今年的6月就陸續報佈那確實狀況如何呢現在到5月現在為止未繳交的還有8個縣市"},{"start":11469.693,"end":11483.404,"text":"國土工人分區劃分的爭議本席所見所聞跟大家分享第一個劃分土地使用分區時部分地區認為劃分方法未能兼顧經濟發展跟環境保護"},{"start":11486.647,"end":11507.297,"text":"第2個農業發展地區劃設是過於嚴苛恐會影響人口增長或經濟發展需求更高這是本席非常匪夷所知我們現在國土計畫法叫做神的法案它完全沒有個案變更有它的個案變更只在於什麼那來地方五年通盤檢討全國的十年通盤檢討就本席所接到的選民服務只要地方五年通盤檢討一下它都得搞十年"},{"start":11516.817,"end":11518.177,"text":"公共設施用地的規劃不夠充足可能造成日後的基礎設施是不足的"},{"start":11543.602,"end":11558.477,"text":"三地聚落的劃分不能因原住民跟非原住民而有不同而要適用這樣的國土計畫法我們現在國土計畫我同樣在一個山區因為我是原住民身份我可以開發我不是原住民身份我在這個山區我不能開發我被你限制住了"},{"start":11560.015,"end":11563.24,"text":"通盤檢討五年一次缺乏個案邊桿機制阻礙區域發展末收地方首長對一個城市發展的權益完全沒有地方發言權這是神的法案專制的法案"},{"start":11574.855,"end":11576.916,"text":"民間反彈就嚴格的土地使用管制可能影響部分民眾跟團體的權益我榮地違規工廠"},{"start":11600.151,"end":11613.364,"text":"我現在已經在變更當中了你們踩不踩幾乎一刀切全部都不用了都從頭來了都市跟因為我經濟部中部辦公室在處理的就是非都市計畫內的農地上工廠"},{"start":11615.768,"end":11636.218,"text":"你們現在全部我們花了多大的力氣在農地上工廠的合法根本沒有限地合法這件事情如果有人說農地上工廠是就地合法那是在騙人每一個哪一個不是遵照相關的法規在執行好現在你這個審討下去之後我都市非都市計畫內的農地上工廠全部化為無有"},{"start":11639.62,"end":11653.504,"text":"都市更新的整備地區原住民部落我們也反彈宗教的相關的所有的團體也在反彈你這個法之後我新辦中的沒有新辦已經申請的還會達到更地變更的我已經新辦已經完成那也還沒達到變更的這些全部都沒有欸這些你們全部都不認了按照現在來講全部不認你們說你們這是在製造台灣的動亂"},{"start":11665.268,"end":11673.812,"text":"好部門的衝突國土計畫法涉及的是多個中央跟地方政府的部門的權責跟責任內政部經部部農業部環保署現在是環境部部門之間對國土的目標原則指標分區等方向有不同的看法或利益考量就會產生溝通協調上的困難跟衝突"},{"start":11688.079,"end":11706.73,"text":"執行效率你國土計畫要求中央與地方在一定期限內完成各級國土計畫的制定跟實施並定期檢討跟修正但是國土計畫是一項龐大且複雜的系統需要投入大量的人力物力跟時間你們的人力在哪裡你國土計畫變更的人力在哪裡"},{"start":11710.851,"end":11738.641,"text":"行政中央跟地方的公務人員就好他本身對國土計畫法的認知是有一致嗎沒有我的人民認為我這個是開發區啊你政府認為是地方政府也認為是開發區啊你中央送上來不好意思我認為是國土保護區啊這就是現況好執行效率所以當然一定會你們光是公務人員體系中央地方有沒有一致的認知"},{"start":11739.654,"end":11756.141,"text":"這沒有的好再來規劃劃設是不夠周全的連我們農業部前部長都說國土計畫法在完整三路前的執行過程背道是未到位的張景生政委他也發表在記者訪問他也講他說這個會是另外一個國土災難好這個風險有哪幾個風險一第一個難以達成國土計畫法的終止目標這才是本席"},{"start":11767.635,"end":11778.77,"text":"我相信在這邊發言的人沒有人說他不支持我們的國家永續發展不支持環境保育沒有人我相信"},{"start":11779.841,"end":11781.662,"text":"全球因海平面上升造成土地跟農地的受影響國家排名台灣名列前茅啊"},{"start":11799.159,"end":11810.988,"text":"這將環境變遷國科會所提出的國家氣候變遷科學報告2024年現象衝擊及調適報告中更指出台灣各地所面臨的海平面上升的威脅"},{"start":11812.125,"end":11813.847,"text":"所以剛才你的標準我全部一一給你破解掉"},{"start":11837.402,"end":11865.635,"text":"兩岸風險的增加自給率絕對向低龍一的面積是少於區域化區域計畫法中的特定農業區唷這句話是現在各縣政府呈上來你的龍一面積竟然是少於我區域化法的特定農業區你說你要講什麼農業自主那個糧食自主率啊第二個原本只要約有3至4萬公頃河川地在不影響防洪的前提下長期做農業使用是台灣重要"},{"start":11866.636,"end":11878.31,"text":"蘇菜瓜果的產地卻被列為國土保育區你看看我台灣西海岸河川地都在種植你現在劃下去國土計畫法之後好你說什麼良安"},{"start":11879.113,"end":11888.18,"text":"那個是我重要的蔬果瓜菜類啊你們有沒有考慮到現況第三個我現在講本席講的本席當了七屆的立委來自地方我現在講的都是實況第一次計畫下的10萬公頃的農地當中農業鋪陳盤點有近3萬公頃的是優良的農地英方在農業發展地區的第五類但最後各縣市政府卻是依據地方發展需求將大部分符合完整且高比例農用"},{"start":11908.716,"end":11929.197,"text":"條件的榮地放入城鄉發展區這在屏東縣送上來的一清二楚他能夠高風險他全部這個是縣長英明說實在如果我是來自地方我會支持這樣做我要逃避你嘛但是真的有達到你的目的良安沒有最後上述三個地區加總超過10萬喔我河川地我10萬公…都市計畫下的10萬公頃的榮地"},{"start":11931.96,"end":11952.217,"text":"包括你農業的面積這個超過10萬公頃是重要生產地的農地卻未列入優良農地的範圍這樣的農業發展地區劃設恐讓台灣的農業生產力降低導致糧食自主力下降提高糧食安全的風險風險三 農地管理及品質未提升"},{"start":11953.077,"end":11977.705,"text":"農業部原來是預計將全國國土計畫劃設地區來模擬農醫的面積是多少33萬7千公斤但各縣市政府報上來的農醫才多少27萬7千公斤相較之下少了6萬公頃倘若土地管治管理制度為能合理配套處理必定造成農業生產力下降"},{"start":11979.266,"end":11983.108,"text":"聽清楚 這個數據不是我講的 是現在送上來的資料風險是阻礙農業發展許多農業休閒地區或農場被劃為國土保育地區限縮了具百億元價值的休閒農場的發展若以為將山坡地直接劃為國土保育區就可以達到保育目的卻不細緻區分環境敏感程度及影響輕重"},{"start":12005.558,"end":12011.582,"text":"除了畫色成果完成和事實有嚴重落差更會造成保育跟農業的雙數好這個是我們地方議員我這個高雄整個在這個整個山區高雄縣市合併12年這是我以市議會有議員他提出來的"},{"start":12023.729,"end":12039.077,"text":"城鄉差距卻愈來愈大我高雄縣市六都當中又與高雄市的城鄉落差最為嚴重好我就以他這句話東高雄其美九區人口流失嚴重好城鄉均衡發展地方要求要有適宜性的產業發展"},{"start":12040.818,"end":12063.595,"text":"這是我們來自山區喔都是農作的喔他也希望有能夠有產業發展增加就業機會合理化的預算分配跟優化基礎交通名聲是他們不是要蓋工廠但是他希望在農業的部分有農業的有農業的一個一個產業化好但是我們畫這下去我整個東九區全部都叫做保育區了"},{"start":12064.993,"end":12068.634,"text":"民眾權益如何保障國土計畫法實施前民眾已依區域計畫法等相關規定提出新辦計畫及申請用地變更為程序尚未完成後續怎麼辦理目前內政部說不出話來他們只有NO好 那這個可嚴重了"},{"start":12083.098,"end":12102.502,"text":"我未完成新辦事業計畫的第二種是已完成新辦計畫何種未完成使用變更編訂的再來第三種已完成新辦事業計畫及使用土地變更但未完成地級異動變更的各位長官這個如果今天國土計畫法真的在明年5月1號實施不好意思這三個全部化為烏有"},{"start":12112.779,"end":12114.78,"text":"我具體要求國土工人分區劃分範圍較大不應剛性的一刀切分區劃分與法規應依地制宜且有個案變更的程序保有土地你說要保運就現有的區計法法加嚴處理就可以了"},{"start":12134.963,"end":12135.543,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":12156.249,"end":12178.05,"text":"好再來第一個本席認為各部會對於土地發展的目標不一應該由行政院主責協調各部會並配合國家重大發展的政策使國土計畫法花費最大效益第二個應給予地方政府較多的自主性以因應當地區域發展的需求現在每一個地方政府秘方所長奪平不分藍綠"},{"start":12179.366,"end":12182.408,"text":"好 你這樣一線是整個地方發展首長都沒有話語權了啊連說話的講的話都是空頭白話哪一個產業不需要土 你講到任何東西都要土地啊好 重新檢視全台國土工人分區劃分設必要時派源縣地勘查派源縣地勘查以利劃設這個合適的分區第四個優先保留原生聚落的縣況好 像這個我就有意見"},{"start":12209.306,"end":12237.676,"text":"你在山區當中人家這邊四代居住已經住了三四代了好那你就叫欸這個本來呢這個從35平可能變成了60平或者70平好現在呢你你到底國土計畫法是從你現在是70平這個現況認定還是說你們你們現在會引起民怨就是說好你現在原來按照現在的法規喔你還是只能35平啦但是你現在60平喔可以我允許你你要繳回饋金"},{"start":12238.616,"end":12264.128,"text":"這是你們的做法我們政府單位做法但本期的做法就不是這樣我說你既然新法就新法認定你現在變成60坪我就認定你60坪好那你的污水處理我就要求你在山區當中檢疫的污水你要搬下去啊檢疫污水10萬塊就處理掉了政府可以補助啊這就是不會引起民怨我可以達到我環境的保育我可以兼顧我山區長久居住的居民的權益好"},{"start":12267.895,"end":12283.483,"text":"好那最後我具體建議啊這個我這個希望啊主席啊本席在這邊很難得看到一個可以藍綠有共識的法案好我絕對支持我們立法院的言議希望主席你要有尬子"},{"start":12284.91,"end":12295.497,"text":"對於全民大反彈的法案我希望這個主席你真的要有尬子堅持在我們大家整個民意的收成之下你一定要全力讓他通過讓我們立法院的版本通過延長本期都認為不是延長啊都應該廢掉期限"},{"start":12300.22,"end":12303.582,"text":"你趕快先通過了哪幾個區?你的台北市、金門、連江線、加一線它整個區都是都市計畫的區域啊你趕快先行啊"},{"start":12319.073,"end":12322.155,"text":"其他有的你可以慢慢的爬說哪幾個縣市你到底遇到什麼問題我去再爬說的第二階段我再來做也許相關的你要達到國土計畫法的這些這五個你的宗旨那我們再去爬說你可以怎麼做可是第一個階段循序漸進你這幾個縣市就可以讓他縣市先行了"},{"start":12338.952,"end":12362.552,"text":"我剛才就具體建議台北市金門縣連江縣加一市全區都是都市計畫他就先做吧其他的我們就再慢慢再討論嘛每一個北南都有分別東西都有分別所以我覺得這個都要兼顧啊否則你的國土計畫法當中我也很認同這五個五項啊這五項裡面我非常非常的認同但是你沒有這個國土的強行通過之後沒有一項你能夠達到的"},{"start":12363.773,"end":12364.053,"text":"謝謝以上好 謝謝"},{"start":12395.628,"end":12398.797,"text":"臺大生傳系教授王俊豪教授"},{"start":12408.103,"end":12408.683,"text":"主席、各位與會的先進"},{"start":12430.711,"end":12453.311,"text":"我本身不是法律的也不是地政的不過剛剛有一個農經我們台大農學院有兩個主要的科系跟社會科學有關一個是農業經濟另外我是生產系以前是農業推廣系所以會從不同的角度來看待國土計畫法這個事情我今天幫這個列了一個標題"},{"start":12454.462,"end":12454.622,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12480.18,"end":12503.841,"text":"蔡博文教授他主要是負責農地所以我以下資料是借用他的因為我們在兩年的期間共同來討論那第一個事情他在我們整個共同的一個對於國土計畫法的一個期待我們的共識是要落實國土計畫法的一個精神然後要公正的控管優質農地然後解決台灣長期以來農地破碎化的一個問題"},{"start":12505.022,"end":12524.521,"text":"這是他所做的相關的一個資料根據過去40年來臺灣整個農地總面積 減少的縣市畫了出來包括說新北或咸明東苗栗臺東跟新竹特別是我們優良農地的部分是在於平地"},{"start":12527.283,"end":12543.141,"text":"其中減少最多的包括我們現在的台南、屏東、高雄、彰化還有桃園那麼這個是特別是屏東是這30年來農地減少最嚴重的一個部分而且減少的面積都是屬於平地的農地"},{"start":12544.122,"end":12544.142,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12564.308,"end":12588.634,"text":"農業部開這個會的有關於我國糧食自給率長期變動的一個趨勢那麼其中各位可以看我們大概1970年代我們糧食自給率大概是7成那麼在90年代逐漸要加入WTO之後我們糧食自給率都大概維持到3到4成那麼最新的報告我們現在糧食自給率在前兩年大概達"},{"start":12589.874,"end":12610.007,"text":"實際上大概是最低30.7那糧食安全的問題也是國家安全主要的問題那糧食的生產最終還是要回歸到農地那麼根據前幾天這個內政部人口的一個報告未來我們50年其實我們人口不會那麼多我們大概會減少800多萬"},{"start":12612.728,"end":12613.589,"text":"中文字幕組"},{"start":12631.152,"end":12631.272,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":12650.406,"end":12650.507,"text":"主席"},{"start":12665.282,"end":12665.522,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12681.72,"end":12682.06,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":12701.007,"end":12722.434,"text":"可是我們在現時現在提部審議的畫色的結果蠻讓人擔憂的啦就是總量還是總量看起來還是達到但是大家都把平地優良的農地把它移到散播地上面去這個是我們所看到的說我們管理的管理的是總量但是在實際上不是數量的問題而是它品質的問題"},{"start":12726.435,"end":12743.173,"text":"各縣市應該有各式各樣不同的壓力我們比較擔心的是說如果說我們把糧食生產用地移到山坡地山坡地增加了事實上對長久台灣的一個永續不想影響到生態保育也會影響到增加一些坡地的災害"},{"start":12745.419,"end":12763.92,"text":"因為我是從鄉村社會學的角度上面來看待這個事情事實上我上課第一張圖都是會跟我同學學生溝通農業問題之所以複雜在於說牽涉到人土地跟產業現在我們終於有一個國土計畫法可以好好處理農地資源永續利用的一個問題"},{"start":12764.901,"end":12776.254,"text":"但是我們在處理計畫法的時候如果各位還有印象我們以前在第一次土改第二次土改處理的都是人跟土地的關係處理所有權處於農地的經營權的問題那這些解決的一項問題"},{"start":12779.758,"end":12779.798,"text":"國土計畫法議員"},{"start":12805.714,"end":12806.295,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":12818.479,"end":12819.78,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":12845.151,"end":12873.01,"text":"永續ESG的風潮包括檢探的部分它也為市場幫企業創造了一些農地額外的商機跟價值這個是已經看不到的所以守護台灣的一個農地的資源讓它有足夠的量它是未來可以不以現在的價格來決定它未來的價值才會呈現所以這一張在永地資源的守護我們才能夠有多功能的農業那各位到"},{"start":12873.999,"end":12900.82,"text":"世界各國歐洲去看有漂亮的農村還是來自於它的農業的一個經營還是來自於它土地上面的一些守護才能夠有後續的結果那跟剛剛委員不一樣的我比較柔性一點這是我在念書的時候看歐洲的文獻看德國的文獻他提到這兩句話第一個就是說農村它是都市的肺如果農村沒有辦法呼吸的話都市就會窒息那各位也可以看圖一片的房子"},{"start":12901.755,"end":12902.035,"text":"接下來請劉許廷委員"},{"start":12935.735,"end":12954.775,"text":"謝謝主席今天我們針對國土計畫法修正的公聽會進行發言這我們的主題叫做不否定理想但不忽略民意這國土計畫法現在要推行的幾個狀況我們有義務要跟大家做報告我從三個面向來做分析其一叫做政策的節奏跟配套是失靈的狀態"},{"start":12956.036,"end":12980.894,"text":"現在很多地方政府今天之所以開公聽會其實都有非常多不管是書面或者是親自的反應也好相關的配套法制其實尚未完備比如說中央各部會的法令競合還沒有解決相關的目的事業機關的一些配套的法令還沒有進入修法甚至國土計畫法的相關執法也都還沒有進行全部的公告那麼這樣子的一個狀況會導致地方政府在執行中央的遊戲規則的時候遇到非常大的障礙"},{"start":12981.434,"end":13001.635,"text":"他不只是會影響所謂的執行的成效更大的壓力其實來自於各地方政府在跟基層做溝通的時候會出現非常大的障礙如果地方的基層他們在開說明會或是什麼的時候提出了各式各樣的問題但是政府總不能拆自己中央政府的台吧說這些東西都還沒有出來畢竟是難以服眾的所以今天會出現延遲的訴求其實我們並不意外"},{"start":13004.498,"end":13033.618,"text":"我們也希望這件事情能夠妥善的來解決比如說舉個相對具體的例子現行的區域計畫的制度要轉軌到國土計畫的時候它的緩衝機制是什麼它的落日條款是什麼這就是一個很大的一個問題那現在沒有落日機制沒有緩衝的時間的情況之下就是大家就認為說土地變更要關門了所以大量的案子送到了地方政府光是因應這些個案的需求就癱瘓掉了所以說很難再抽出時間或者是在針對法案的內容或者是什麼再去做溝通跟說明"},{"start":13034.338,"end":13034.638,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":13053.129,"end":13077.265,"text":"今天我們把話挑明了來講今天為什麼會出現這麼大的一個爭議不就是因為長久以來中華民國政府始終都沒有辦法解決土地大開發主義是能夠獲取暴利最好的方式嗎以至於所有的土地所有權益這是他本來都應有而且可以被期待的利益啊有一個這麼龐大的利益在前面的時候他怎麼會希望自己的土地被認定是優良農地必須農用呢從理想的角度來講這是對的"},{"start":13078.286,"end":13107.042,"text":"但是從土地所有權人的角度來出發這不免背離人性我們如果要貫徹國土計畫法的核心精神我們的政府不是只有修這一部法令而已啊我們要用哪一些其他的政策武器啊來強力的抑制土地的炒作來強力的控管這大開發主義的後遺症恐怕是要同步並行的你才有辦法解決這個事第二從心力的角度我們的政府也沒有辦法提出完整有力而且未來性具足的農業政策"},{"start":13107.722,"end":13126.928,"text":"今天最大的爭議除了國寶地之外大概就是農業、農地、農用的問題大家一方面土地這個開發它未來的這個利益無窮相對來講我守著農地我沒有一個好的政策我的獲益有限我的人才流失我政府的所有農業政策大部分也就是補貼為邏輯發點錢給你你兌付過去就算了"},{"start":13130.09,"end":13159.35,"text":"當然我守住農地沒有誘因開發而有誘因那所有的地主當然就會不樂見國土計畫往這樣的方向來實踐所以這個民意的壓力就導致這個理想受到了很大的阻礙國土法的理想最後淪為治標而不治本的時候當然就會爭議頻傳所以我們在那邊誠懇的呼籲中央政府這個恐怕不是內政部單獨可以解決的事情行政院的高度跨部會的來針對這樣子的一個案件跟衝擊去做更完善的配套我想是有必要的"},{"start":13159.81,"end":13176.697,"text":"最後我要講第三個面向也就是執政黨在這個題目上應該要有絕對的明確的態度剛剛我們講不管是跨部會政策的協調問題或者是單就國土計畫法推動的時候的溝通跟配套的問題其實都是政府的責任到底現在的僵局啊"},{"start":13177.017,"end":13192.202,"text":"要透過修法的方式來解決嗎我們要花多少的時間來推動這些相應的配套我們該如何因應這麼多地方政府有些人土豆還沒有交有些是提了非常多的訴求有些把地方在說明會的時候民眾的意見直接帶了上來"},{"start":13193.042,"end":13221.04,"text":"這麼多的問題要如何一一梳理如何一一來因應其實都是政府的責任我們希望這件事情在經過今天的公聽會各方各面不同角度學者專家民意代表的發言之後可以讓我們的內政部讓我們甚至到行政院對於國土計畫法有更立體的了解我們也期待行政院從院的高度提出更完善的配套措施如此才有辦法在兼顧理想的情況之下讓國土計畫法順利的來推動以上 謝謝"},{"start":13225.517,"end":13230.719,"text":"好 謝謝牛許庭委員我們接下來請雲林縣農會總幹事陳志良總幹事主席各位長官各位先進大家好我是雲林縣農會總幹事我看今天大家都是針對一些政策性的問題在講"},{"start":13255.65,"end":13271.219,"text":"我這差不多三四個月以來雲林縣政府陸續在雲林縣辦了22場的說明會還有座談會所以我統合一下以農會的立場以農民的立場來講一些話"},{"start":13275.521,"end":13296.695,"text":"因為我覺得中央政府包括國土署署長在那邊以前他也有到雲林縣政府6月24其實我覺得互信的問題中央政府一直說沒有改變沒有改變區域計畫法跟那個國土計畫法沒有改變可是怎麼會沒有改變"},{"start":13298.732,"end":13306.94,"text":"很多一般農業區現在變成農一應該是要一般農業區是要化定為農二可是現在把它化定為農一農一跟農二開發的強度就不一樣了啊"},{"start":13313.268,"end":13313.528,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13335.874,"end":13353.929,"text":"他的利益就損失了所以很多農民會出來講話剛才那個鄉長說雲林縣有翻桌沒有翻桌啦問候人家父母而已啦沒有翻桌這個他特別強調一下所以負信的基礎真的沒有啦因為農民一塊土地從民國60幾年到70幾年的時候區計畫法發布的時候一塊土地用百四五十年"},{"start":13365.68,"end":13373.228,"text":"那塊土地綁了四五十年而且以前區議計畫法發布的時候沒有什麼公聽會啦因為以前那個時代齁人民如果說怎樣 會比較怎麼做啦不過現在不一樣了現在人民齁真的都會發聲啦齁人民都會抗議啦因為齁損失到我個人的權益的時候"},{"start":13387.483,"end":13415.725,"text":"我就會勇敢出來所以包括剛才講的因為很多國土計畫法跟區域計畫法大家那中央不會一直說這個都一樣都一樣可是有很多不一樣剛才濃郁這個啦還有以後邱教授以後啦以後包括我們那個建壁率的問題啦農機率的問題啦還有剛才那個林大化委員講的"},{"start":13417.116,"end":13441.324,"text":"五年檢討一次以前可以各變可是再來要五年才可以檢討一次那五年檢討一次那我那一塊土地就跟現在解釋那個廢死的解釋憲法一樣合憲可是不可以執行所以以後五年五年檢討一次的話我那一塊土地以後永永遠遠都是要當農業用地"},{"start":13444.566,"end":13459.92,"text":"所以很多人剛才很多當然我們接受不同的意見大家都說因為要維持我們國家糧食安全維持國家糧食安全沒錯可是為什麼一定是我們要維持"},{"start":13461.738,"end":13480.457,"text":"你們的地可以蓋房子我們的地只可以種稻米這個叫土地公平正義嗎不公平正義啦所以以前他是用縣區計畫法以前是用縣況編定嘛所以以前"},{"start":13480.998,"end":13510.486,"text":"紅樓202會議紅樓202會議"},{"start":13510.746,"end":13519.454,"text":"國土計畫法去強制規定我們的每一塊土地的話我覺得對地主也好對農民也好這個是一個非常大的損失所以我強烈要求什麼一定要有農業權入法剛才有一些專家學者剛才我在講他一個"},{"start":13530.99,"end":13550.602,"text":"其實我覺得真的要農業權入法為什麼因為剛才大家都有提到非常的損失一定要非常的補償因為農業權入法入法了以後我認為一定要成立一個農業安定基金農業安定基金要照顧什麼照顧農業的生產環境照顧農業的生產設施照顧農業的教育照顧農業的未來"},{"start":13558.286,"end":13581.429,"text":"永續的農業就是一定要一個農業生產 農業安定基金所以我希望不管延不延 不管延期不延期我是希望說 是不是可以農業權入法成立一個農業安定基金針對這個基金我們去照顧我們的農民"},{"start":13582.389,"end":13582.809,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":13610.819,"end":13614.241,"text":"特別的犧牲要特別的補償所以我們強烈要求農業權入法再來就是農業權下面一定要成立一個農業安定基金針對農業去補償"},{"start":13627.409,"end":13627.529,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13650.521,"end":13662.052,"text":"要成立一個要農業權入法成立農業安定基金這是我們最大的一個訴求在這裡這個建議希望我們國土署這邊可以採納 謝謝接下來請環境法律人協會秘書長郭宏儀秘書長"},{"start":13679.848,"end":13696.406,"text":"主席各位與會的專家學者大家好我是環境法院協會的郭鴻瑜律師也很感謝各位立委的插隊讓我從15號一直延到現在我這邊幾個比較基本的一個想法來先表明一下就是整個國土計畫法的"},{"start":13697.631,"end":13723.658,"text":"展延或者是延長沒有辦法解決現有的問題這邊我還是呼籲這個邱教授的想法沒有辦法解決現在的問題特別是區議計畫法對於整個國土的使用它其實是缺乏整個相關的規劃因素國土計畫法才是真正的有把相關的規劃應該考量的因素納到了這個法律從而讓這個國土的規劃它有一個規劃完整的秩序"},{"start":13724.338,"end":13746.86,"text":"那當然就是針對有一些若干條文的文字調整或修正這個部分完全不應該影響到國土計畫法的進程再來第二個是我想各位對於整個國土計畫法的架構恐怕有一個很深的誤解整個國土計畫法它是用上位的計畫去指導下位的計畫從而再落實到整個土地工能分區所以它最先出來的是全國國土計畫"},{"start":13748.341,"end":13765.273,"text":"當年剛好是106年 如果我沒有記錯的話106年內政部為了這個全國國土計畫包括開了幾場的這個公聽會跟專家學者會議而且是各部門 跨部門跟地方政府還有各個部會全部去針對每一區的使用去開了這個全國國土計畫的會議這一整年同時間還有這個違章工廠的問題要處理"},{"start":13772.037,"end":13791.137,"text":"所以那一年其實我想幾個公民團體都疲於奔命在這個國土計畫跟偽章工廠的問題所以第一個所謂的土地使用管制的問題其實它的整個上位的計畫在全國國土計畫的計畫書裡面其實已經講得很明白哪些問題應該要怎麼樣做處理"},{"start":13791.457,"end":13814.486,"text":"這是剛剛有幾位原民代表的立委他們針對原住民族的問題其實全部都寫在全部計畫裡面有關原住民土地應該怎麼樣去規劃使用而在這邊原住民土地最大的問題其實不在於回歸原住民族基本法第21條的問題而是原住民族基本法裡面傳統領域不包括私有土地的這個問題才是最大的問題為什麼"},{"start":13816.067,"end":13842.521,"text":"因為我們現在政府透過大量的把國有土地變賣為私有土地從而讓原住民族的傳統領域大量的限縮這個才是根本的問題啊所以如果原民立委真的想要解決問題不是讓所有東西重新回歸到21條而是要重新審視一下21條所謂的territory主權的問題為什麼會限縮在私有土地難道中華民國土地的"},{"start":13843.342,"end":13858.083,"text":"領土的主權會因為適有土地而喪失嗎這才是原住民族自治還要去討論的幾個問題那在這邊我也直接打開地方說亮話整個理念所謂的犧牲在於農地跟轉為非農地的限制"},{"start":13858.584,"end":13883.204,"text":"以及就是農地的市場價格的交易問題會因為整個國土計畫受到影響不要再說什麼是農業權或是什麼之類的問題如果你真的是農民這個土地被保良成優質農場或者是優質的農業土地你高興都來不及了怎麼會覺得我的農業權被犧牲這就是我一直搞不懂的地方如果我真的想務農我會想要做這個土地變更嗎"},{"start":13884.125,"end":13904.906,"text":"這是我的問題啊我今天想要做產業我會想要我這個產業做變更嗎這不是這樣的問題我們現在面臨的問題是農業用地被產業用地拿來做炒作產業用地被住宅用地拿來做炒作所以一個一個炒作那我問你現在如果說要針對土地來做農業的補償跟這個機制那我們要用什麼樣的標準來做補償"},{"start":13906.445,"end":13925.921,"text":"台北市最貴的地價來補償農業的機制嗎?產業用地來補償農業的機制嗎?所以這個地方我覺得根本我們還是要問清楚到底農民的什麼權益被影響到是使用土地的權利還是市場交易價格被影響如果單單是市場交易價格的問題"},{"start":13927.903,"end":13943.956,"text":"這個問題其實可以透過許多的方式回歸到各部會去針對土地的使用去增加使用土地它應該有的這個它原本應有的價值那為什麼最後一個卡在最後一裡錄我想剛剛我已經講的蠻明白的"},{"start":13946.252,"end":13963.246,"text":"最後我們還是會問整個國土計畫法的實施會不會限制到農民財產權的或者是說相關人民的財產權會因為計畫法就是會限定到土地的使用的利益是不會被影響但是土地的交易價格會受到影響"},{"start":13963.686,"end":13977.902,"text":"但這個交易價格的影響會不會超過土地的社會義務我覺得這邊我是打三分炮這邊我跟王教授的見解可能就不太一樣到底什麼樣的土地使用限制會造成土地社會義務的逾越我想這個大家可以"},{"start":13978.643,"end":13986.389,"text":"中小企業沒有產業用地可以使用因為被炒作得太高了所以他們不得不去農地找工廠找使用的土地而農業土地真正想務農的因為土地被炒作得太高了他們只好去成豬土地"},{"start":14008.547,"end":14026.332,"text":"所以所有的問題都卡在土地價格的飆漲所以我們現在必須透過使用方式讓本來的土地該怎麼做使用不要因為被炒作而讓真正有需求的人沒有辦法獲得土地去做使用所以我想這個部分可能是需要去釐清的那再來就是"},{"start":14028.013,"end":14047.409,"text":"國土計畫法的10年檢討一次跟這個5年檢討一次會不會太長?我這邊其實也是呼應鄭安庭教授的說法其實我們從氣候變遷的角度來看氣候變遷的變異非常的快速你說10年檢討一次或者是5年通常檢討一次我覺得可能是確實有點太長"},{"start":14048.55,"end":14073.998,"text":"他可能可以縮短因應未來各種土地使用的這個因應跟團圓性因為未來的氣候巨災我們都不知道會發生在什麼時候所以為什麼國土計畫裡面有一張特別針對國土富裕的地方寫得這麼清楚現在全球的趨勢都在於所謂的土地使用的恢復歐盟在今年通過了自然恢復法他就是要針對所謂的生物多樣性跟生物多"},{"start":14079.242,"end":14103.781,"text":"全球區市都在對於土地的他應該要有的功能跟土地應該要有的價值包括生物多樣性的種種都在做回復的動作我們反而對於這樣子的法案不繼續去做推進反而是因為土地交易價格的問題卡在這邊沒有辦法繼續往前所以我覺得這個部分其實是大家還是要回頭思考說到底國土"},{"start":14105.143,"end":14122.578,"text":"國土計畫法終究是一部土地規劃的法律它不是要用來解決所有的利益問題所有的其他利益問題包括農業權的問題回歸到農業法院條例包括其他產業的問題回歸到工廠管理輔導法它不是一套"},{"start":14123.539,"end":14148.954,"text":"要用一個國土空間規劃的思維要來解決所有人的需求把所有不應該放在空間使用規劃的法律的相關的權益問題全部要在這部法律裡面解決這個是我覺得大家可能要理清每一部法律有它想要達到的目的而這一部法律想要達到目的就是很單純的我們的國家的土地應該要考量哪些面向去做土地的使用規劃"},{"start":14149.995,"end":14178.007,"text":"那當然在個案變更的方面在國土計畫法裡面不是沒有但是比較嚴格限縮它其實是有一個許可開發了這個相關的機制但是這個要件相對於過去區域計畫法的思維它是嚴格序都沒有錯但它並不是完全的沒有這樣子的機制最後我還是要說高雄市已經提出土地使用分區的這個部分了所以那個高雄市的立委說他們高雄市沒有辦法提出來我不知道是發生什麼事了"},{"start":14188.08,"end":14207.927,"text":"謝謝謝謝郭律師本席在一開始開會的時候就有宣告我們每兩位專家學者發言之後如果有立委有簽到要發言的我們會安排一位立委發言所以我們也沒有讓立法委員插隊"},{"start":14209.467,"end":14210.028,"text":"馬文君委員王育民委員"},{"start":14224.374,"end":14233.679,"text":"謝謝主席在場的專家學者還有代表還有我們行政部門的同仁我想有關於國土計畫法現在要上路然後引發的爭議的確是不少那我想全國民眾大家都不會反對國土計畫法的精神就是說基於環境的永續"},{"start":14247.006,"end":14250.949,"text":"這個一定是要去面對的問題但是現在大家去探究的就是實質要落實到全國各縣市的時候它的確是遇到了困難我必須很坦誠的講就是過去我擔任不分區的委員還沒有開始深入走到地方的時候可能會覺得說這樣立法法沒有問題但這一次"},{"start":14270.999,"end":14296.732,"text":"我深入走到嘉義縣阿里山就是進到山區之後我開始發現說我們有一些的法它其實是利益良善但是要落實的時候如果那個過程你跟地方的溝通是不足的你沒有在乎人民的感受跟聲音或者是去理解他真正在乎的是什麼那這個法可能到一半的時候就會像這次的國土計畫法"},{"start":14297.552,"end":14311.185,"text":"就是即將要上路了但是反彈的聲音很大這一次你可以看到在國會裡面就是是藍綠的委員大家都有這樣的一個疑慮而且提出來所以今天才會又有這樣的一個公聽會而且會有暫緩的聲音那我覺得解決問題就是面對人民的意見跟聲音我們就很務實的攤開來討論這個才會有解方"},{"start":14321.675,"end":14322.175,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":14328.84,"end":14356.637,"text":"那這個問題我在這個院會質詢的時候也問過卓永泰院長那卓院長他在施政報告的時候他提到他說他的施政都是以人出發為考量我很認同我很認同所以我也提醒他在國土計畫法推動的過程當中當地人的感受非常的重要你必須聽見聽進去而且想辦法看他們這些意見跟聲音我們到底要怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":14358.118,"end":14362.76,"text":"所以今天我也特別謝謝阿里山嘉義縣這邊我們黃理事長他剛剛的發言我也聽到他是很真誠的從他們在這片土地生活這麼久今天這個法就會影響到他而我們有沒有在乎他們的聲音他們可能不是最多數的人"},{"start":14376.707,"end":14404.735,"text":"但是他們在嘉義縣這樣的一個山區的地方生活那麼久每次法的變動他們就要擔心受怕他的下一代還可不可以在這片土地生活我覺得居住權這是一個最基本的權益啊那這些這麼細微的事情我們考量到了嗎恐怕沒有就是沒有我也問過劉士芳部長你有親自到第一線聽過嘉義縣阿里山這些山區的鄉民的意見嗎他們在乎的是什麼"},{"start":14405.535,"end":14434.525,"text":"我跟各位報告我去那邊兩次晚上的時間聽鄉民怎麼說他們只是焦慮我可不可以在這片土地繼續生活我可不可以繼續我種茶葉的可不可以繼續種我種咖啡可不可以繼續種如果我的下一代他要繼續我們說希望青年返鄉他的心願很單純我兒子現在大二他回來就是繼續接我家裡的工作他未來還有沒有前景"},{"start":14435.305,"end":14435.345,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":14454.398,"end":14454.919,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":14472.042,"end":14474.083,"text":"你沒有親自招待座談會嗎?"},{"start":14474.083,"end":14497.47,"text":"劉思芳部長跟我說他沒有啊我說你有聽過阿里山鄉親他們真正意見是什麼?他說沒有我說可不可以我們一起再去聽一遍他說好但現在都還沒有安排我要講的是涉及到人民土地的這件事情你的執行過程要夠細膩而且溝通是要雙向的而不是我下令要你做什麼而且鄉親他反映一個"},{"start":14499.23,"end":14527.004,"text":"這個剛剛也有早上也有一個學者提出來現在各個縣市政府他的套土啊他說引用的這些資料年代比例圖他們的這些精緻程度不一樣也有誤差率請問當你要剝奪一個鄉親的土地判他是國宜是不是國宜的時候你是用套土的還是實地去看的去丈量的當鄉親有意見的時候你有沒有很細膩的去處理他的問題沒有啊"},{"start":14527.964,"end":14555.487,"text":"加一縣這些鄉親告訴我就是說你塗一套然後就告訴我但是你從來他從來沒有看到有人實際到現場來丈量來判斷這樣的土地到底是不是適合劃入國一他是用套土的所以我覺得這個是發生在我們為什麼政策不能上路你執行的過程第一個缺乏雙向溝通第二個是你沒有一個很細膩的執行第三個人民的聲音好像聽不見"},{"start":14556.648,"end":14556.928,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14577.932,"end":14577.952,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":14599.872,"end":14599.992,"text":"《國土計畫法》"},{"start":14627.242,"end":14640.726,"text":"所以我希望這個議題其實大家不用是針鋒相對也不用對立就是鄉親提出來這些疑問我覺得作為政府作為民代我們就是來協助他幫助他解決我想這是最好的辦法 謝謝好 謝謝王育民委員接下來游浩委員"},{"start":14668.425,"end":14694.71,"text":"謝謝趙偉還有今天舉辦公聽會還能夠讓許多的專家學者包括立法委員以及許多的人士都能夠來表達反應對於國土計畫法還有的許多的一些地方的意見跟專業的見解那我剛開完刀那想說這一案國土計畫法對於南投其實也是影響非常的重要所以說不管怎麼樣那今天想說就一定要發言還是謝謝趙偉的安排"},{"start":14696.67,"end":14697.731,"text":"民意代表是反對國土計畫法也沒有一個民意代表是"},{"start":14720.849,"end":14747.787,"text":"反對國土計畫法的立法精神或目的今天一切大家所提到的就是在爭議如何能夠被討論以及爭議如何能夠被解決所以今天開這個公聽會的一個目的那當然說其實過去來講國土計畫法它的一個推展到現在是不是能夠暫緩本席還是要特別的強調一下"},{"start":14749.128,"end":14765.08,"text":"暫緩兩年也好那其實都不是說讓國土計畫法不要去實行而是希望在實行的過程中能夠減少許多的爭議爭端因為在第一線的民眾在尤其是剛才不管是王玉敏委員甚至我是代表南投縣在"},{"start":14766.06,"end":14789.603,"text":"這個南投的許多的農民或是在縣府以及我們許多的鄉親在溝通的時候其實民眾的對於國土計畫法很多的一個狀況的細節的一個無法了解那所以導致這個國土計畫法目前在推動以及包括功能圖有九個縣市他沒有辦法來去第一時間做繳交因為繳交了之後他所影響的其實是"},{"start":14790.103,"end":14790.343,"text":"委員會提供書面意見"},{"start":14809.078,"end":14837.696,"text":"將近是不到3%的空間去做所謂的都市發展那50萬的難同情而已堪那如果說在推動政策之前能夠有更積極的溝通那重點是真正的能夠傾聽民意所以暫緩實施的部分他不是不讓國土法去推動而是在這個實施暫緩的過程中能夠真正的因地制宜那這個不是歷史工業這個是藍綠的共識但是以大家的共同作業"},{"start":14838.556,"end":14863.994,"text":"那本期在這裡還是要特別去提到一下攸關臺灣重大的國土計畫法那在總質詢的時候本期也提到相關的執法的進度那國土管理署那時候有提到目前總共23項在113年7月31日已經完成國土計畫法施行細則等14項執法但是包括在2024年11月年底能夠完成發布完成的比例大概是60.87%"},{"start":14866.095,"end":14878.639,"text":"那如果說以該屬113年10月25日召開的目的事業法律因應國土計畫法實施的修正方向及辦理行程延長會議的記錄總共相關的盤點的目的事業法律共52部計94個條文涉及到內政部"},{"start":14881.56,"end":14907.99,"text":"農業部經濟部的13個部會來相關優先修正法律可是目前這些法律在實施的過程中他們在地方縣市政府也是要等著相關的執法出來了之後才能夠去相關完成配套以及包括在公認圖的調查所以如果說在完成比例是在60.87%那如何要讓地方的縣市政府還能夠來進行一個完整的配合"},{"start":14908.59,"end":14928.04,"text":"我相信這是一個很大的問題所在所以那時候總直轄的劉志旺部長說暫緩兩年爭議還在可是如果說這個爭議能夠在這兩年來講把它降到最低我相信這才是我們大家主要的一個目的舉例來講南樓縣政府在辦理國土計畫作業需要協助的事項像地震處就提到了"},{"start":14928.956,"end":14953.265,"text":"本縣的39萬公頃 佔了95%農山的原則傾向10782的一個涉及所有相關土地所有權人那時候南德縣政府有提到國保的範圍是不是有些是應該是在農用的部分應該化為農山那無危害水土保持的林業用地也要成為能夠設定為農山那目前的話也都還沒有一個"},{"start":14954.245,"end":14971.1,"text":"明確進度包括在調這個圖資資料的時候藍樓村政府如果說直接向其他的單位來調這相關的資料在請求行政協助的事項上並沒有強制力所以說他的這個院的應該要提升到功能圖應該提升到院的層級會比較適合"},{"start":14973.602,"end":15000.33,"text":"因為時間有限所以包括後面的話我們有提到不管是在觀光的部分那這個相關的倉促實施會影響到整個南投縣農業發展能夠去做實用實到的相關申請的部分其實通通都還是目前所南投縣遇到的問題甚至在原住民剛才那個老師有提到的微型聚落的部分以三棟為原則應該事實的應該像本縣目前的生活習慣幾乎是為兩棟"},{"start":15002.27,"end":15002.39,"text":"公職委員會議"},{"start":15022.868,"end":15034.054,"text":"還是回歸一個本意大家都希望一個健全的國土計畫法讓我們國土使用完整但是爭議要降到最低我相信才是民意代表反映基層民意的真正目的謝謝好 謝謝有號委員接下來請武麗華委員謝謝主席"},{"start":15052.341,"end":15081.189,"text":"在這裡跟所有與會的行政長官以及學者專家來賓說聲大家午安我是山地原住民所選出來的山地原住民立委代表今天參與國土計畫法的修正草案我有一些話想要跟大家說這部法對原住民來講絕對是百年大忌因為我們等了一百多年"},{"start":15082.406,"end":15100.754,"text":"日本人來的時候呢把原住民的土地也就是祖居地以山林國有這樣的名義全數的來接管緊緊分配給原住民這些所需要的家屋農耕用地被稱之為三人所要地"},{"start":15102.046,"end":15128.084,"text":"國民政府來了之後呢在1974年以前其實對於這些非都市計畫地區的土地是沒有什麼法規來約束限制的但是一旦到了1974年的區域計畫法沒有完成落實調查土地的使用現況使得像賴清德總統他們礦區那些主居地"},{"start":15129.425,"end":15145.063,"text":"還有位在原保地的這一些建物一夕之間全部變成違法所以今天談國土計畫法原住民等很久了這是盼望我們的土地合法的一線希望"},{"start":15146.264,"end":15165.71,"text":"那麼政府有承諾千萬不要跳票105年5月1號前的建物所在的原住民土地要合法化我再說一次政府承諾105年5月1號前的建物所在的原住民土地要合法化"},{"start":15166.69,"end":15189.098,"text":"我們引頸期盼我還記得我在109年進入立法院就參與了這個延長的修法當時我也有做出附帶決議我要求原民會以及我們的內政部要編列經費到全國各部落要去做土地調查跟說明溝通謝謝編了1億033萬元"},{"start":15194.82,"end":15222.078,"text":"結果我們調查出來目前有14萬棟的建築物是蓋在非建地上面所以如果已經蓋在合法土地上的叫第一類那麼還有105年以前既有的這些建物呢如果是在非建地上我們就是等待用國土功能分區把它土地合法化"},{"start":15223.759,"end":15249.039,"text":"105年以後才蓋的在多次的溝通討論中現在有原住民族土地使用管制規則以及一生一次這樣的規定可以讓它建物合法化再來就是未來要蓋的那一些還沒有成型的建地我們也可以透過鄉村規劃這樣的工具來完成但是我對政府有信心"},{"start":15250.08,"end":15271.606,"text":"我唯一擔心的也覺得成效會不彰的就是5月1號要面臨的問題地用合法了接下來我們的建物合法我們要水保合法我們還要消防合法可是我們幫族人去算了一下"},{"start":15272.886,"end":15301.033,"text":"為了建物的合法環境敏感地區地質敏感地區簡易的水保或者是水保計畫像原住民有很多因為過去非法沒有辦法土地貸款抵押所以我們的建物都很簡便它還需要結構安全鑑定未來明年有水污法污水的處理它是違建面對的罰款它要取得建造死照等等等"},{"start":15302.193,"end":15303.974,"text":"這樣一個簡簡單單的建物為了要合法化結果補照的費用要總計130萬我們想要問一句值得嗎?值得嗎?所以"},{"start":15317.563,"end":15334.949,"text":"我們認為我們更需要的是政府要怎麼樣來協助不要為德不足讓政府的美意還給原住民的土地正義能夠有效的落實所以我們在這邊主張提供105年5月以前的既有建築105年5月以後的建築未來預備興建的這些宿地去研議用地合法化的策略"},{"start":15347.233,"end":15373.323,"text":"另外我們也希望國土的永續基金要訂定計畫要編列經費更重要的是原住民族土地使用管制規則要趕快的公佈因為本來應該在今年1月要公佈希望內政部可以尊重原民會以及學者專家提供的一個原住民族土地最希望的使用規則我也在別的委員會"},{"start":15376.124,"end":15402.34,"text":"例如在農業部他們也部長表示會全力支持未來我們的交通部像是這些小型露營場的合法化面對的問題他們其他部位都已經答應會尊重原住民族土地使用管制規則所以我們主張國土計畫要儘速上路但是配套措施也是一刻不能等"},{"start":15402.761,"end":15404.726,"text":"需要即刻的規劃在這邊做這樣的說明謝謝大家"},{"start":15411.296,"end":15433.532,"text":"好 謝謝武力華委員那我們現在休息五分鐘讓大家可以使用洗手間休息完之後我們會請列席的機關代表來做回應同時這個也會讓各位專家學者如果有想要第二輪發言的可以進行第二輪發言好 現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":15775.285,"end":15786.996,"text":"好我們繼續開會那我們現在邀請行政單位來回應說明首先請內政部"},{"start":15799.466,"end":15824.977,"text":"謝謝主席非常感謝今天出席公聽會的許多專家學者以及許多委員給我們的指教我想國土計畫法我要再一次強調它是一個非常重要攸關於國家空間治理的法案透過國土計畫法能夠有效的規範我們國家的整體空間的管理透過這樣的一個治理工具讓土地得到一個合理的發展"},{"start":15825.97,"end":15850.326,"text":"那相對於過去區域計畫法對於土地的管制而並沒有相關的規劃權事實上國土計畫法是一個更進步的法案所以我們非常感謝在2015年由邱文彥委員所領銜的包括當時的我們今天的主席徐欣英委員還有盧秀燕委員所領銜提到的國土計畫法透過這樣子的立法"},{"start":15850.606,"end":15850.886,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":15873.042,"end":15894.218,"text":"在未來我們會跟原民會積極合作就國土計畫法裡面原民區域的權益的保障原民的居住環境的問題我們透過相關的法令來做一個解決針對農業的問題我們也非常感謝今天在座許多委員的跟專家學者的指正跟指教"},{"start":15894.878,"end":15912.193,"text":"我想農業的問題台灣是一個以農立國的國家台灣也是一個重要的海島國家農業的生存跟發展與我們國家的生存發展息息相關地方部一定會跟農業部一起合作就農民的相關的權益的問題我們來進行討論事實上"},{"start":15914.275,"end":15929.266,"text":"我也要跟各位報告因為這個法令的關係我們才能夠有效去檢討我們的農業的空間的分布有效去檢討農地上面的使用的狀態甚至我們進一步將產製除消整套的農業生產體系放入國土農業空間裡面去運作"},{"start":15931.167,"end":15931.267,"text":"國土計畫法"},{"start":15955.063,"end":15973.539,"text":"在一定程度上開始讓我們去正視這個問題然後開始有一些工具去處理去討論所以為什麼我們把規劃權拿出來我們為什麼賦予它一個地方政府的規劃跟討論的權利都在這裡那更重要的事情是也感謝許多委員的指正事實上在這個過去裡面"},{"start":15975.06,"end":15991.563,"text":"我們內政部的同仁從立法開始2016年開始就積極不斷地跟各地方政府積極溝通討論從全國國土計畫法的制定到縣市國土計畫功能的制定到現在分區的套圖我們其實都積極地跟地方政府"},{"start":15992.383,"end":16017.819,"text":"同時與各地方積極的溝通討論包括說我們親自到許多的地方去做一些說明而有關圖資的部分我們也會定期喊請各目的事業主管集團去做檢討所以相關圖資的套點一定是根據最新的資料保障居民的權益尤其是現在透過人造衛星的方式我們可以拍攝到的是更親自的狀態所以那個點位一定是更完整更明確的"},{"start":16019.5,"end":16040.108,"text":"許多委員提醒的事實上我們都做了我們也都很引力去做未來我們會更積極的跟各縣市政府去做溝通事實上我個人還有我們的部長還有我們署長分別到各地方政府去做進行相關的拜會我們也做了多次的討論包括雲林縣我本人去了兩次嘉義縣嘉義市南投縣彰化縣"},{"start":16044.91,"end":16064.019,"text":"苗栗縣等等這些相關的縣市我們都有進行去拜會跟討論那我們署長還特別跑去台東那花蓮我也去拜會了縣長事實上我們都有相關的討論那部長親自拜會了我們臺北市長跟新北市長我想這一些的溝通我們會持續的進行"},{"start":16065.16,"end":16091.821,"text":"因為就如同許多委員的指正國土計畫法是一個攸關國人的權益的法案尤其是土地權益的法案它需要更長時間的共識的凝聚那麼內政部一定會審慎的聆聽各方的意見然後審慎來評估我們持續的去推動相關的法案讓這個法案的精神跟這個法案能夠做到的事情我們能夠更完善許多的權益的問題我們一定會帶回去進行完整的討論以上 謝謝"},{"start":16096.891,"end":16100.839,"text":"好 謝謝內政部的回應說明接下來是不是請農業部"},{"start":16112.915,"end":16135.846,"text":"感謝主席還有我們各位委員以及我們各位學者專家公民團體代表還有媒體的朋友大家的關心那事實上在今天早上我們也聽到非常多的意見給我們很多的指導我們非常感謝不過我還是要強調一件農業設施在農業政策啊我們資源的投入跟整個農業發展地區的劃設結果並沒有對價關係因為"},{"start":16141.768,"end":16157.653,"text":"農地是用來從事農業不是用來炒作就跟黃籽一樣不是用來炒作的所以沒有對照關係特別是長期以來在藍營的政府也好綠營的政府也好長期以來對於農民的關注我們是看農民過去"},{"start":16158.973,"end":16159.313,"text":"國土計畫法宣言"},{"start":16180.629,"end":16180.869,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16199.324,"end":16218.326,"text":"黃誌等等各方面都已經有非常多的一直都在做那在這一次國土計畫法推動過程當中我們其實我們在整個堆疊式的這個架構因為有很多的學者關心堆疊式架構我們一直都在討論而且長期都在做分別編列在我們的農業發展基金"},{"start":16219.287,"end":16245.13,"text":"受進口損害基金還有農村再生基金這些裡面都有我們針對農民對於農地對地給付還有確保糧食安全給付還有生態環境給付跟農業設施設備的補助還有農業金融支持以及農業公共基礎建設這六大方面的貢獻所以我們所做的給付跟補助因此我們在國土計畫法"},{"start":16246.591,"end":16266.696,"text":"發射之後我們依然會把我們的龍一當作是我們的最優良的農業區那平原地區的話如果第一這個龍一的部分之外其他不符合25公頃以上的集中那從當中有80%來做農業使用如果不符合的話就歸到龍二那龍二的話我們依然"},{"start":16267.596,"end":16291.033,"text":"會把它視為是我們很重要的這個農業的生產基地那龍山的話是坡地的部分我們會按照地區的不同它那個地方在坡地沒有辦法有灌溉排水但是我們會給予龍塘或者是這些皮塘以及這些低灌設施等等給予相關的這個協助所以其實龍一龍二龍三都是我們的主要生產的基地那我們"},{"start":16292.133,"end":16293.234,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":16313.404,"end":16313.684,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":16331.912,"end":16351.884,"text":"包括這些堆疊式的這些相關的這個給付或者是補助還有輔導相關措施我們都已經準備好了所以我們非常期待我們在105年當時在立法委員們大家很認真去制定出來這條法律也能夠真的是對於我們國家的未來對於我們後代的子孫"},{"start":16352.244,"end":16352.284,"text":"主席"},{"start":16380.816,"end":16386.924,"text":"請問還有沒有行政機關覺得有需要來做說明回應的 有沒有"},{"start":16396.533,"end":16413.273,"text":"好 謝謝召委召開這個國土計畫法的公聽會那也非常感謝今天與會的我們的委員跟專家學者還有一些地方的意見領袖或者是NGO的團體所提供的一些比較具體的意見那謝謝你們的指教"},{"start":16414.688,"end":16443.027,"text":"針對剛剛所提的一些問題因為趙委員希望我們能夠做一個適當的回應那詳細的部分剛剛因為有黃人偉有特別提到我們要提一些書面資料因為他提了13項的疑點跟疑慮這個部分我們都會會後會再整理比較詳細的資料提供給各個需要書面資料的委員這邊要說明就是說《國土計畫法》其實它就是一個土地利用的一個法規的一個規範所以大家談的很多問題"},{"start":16444.628,"end":16462.539,"text":"在這個法規上不太可能全部處理它就是針對一個土地利用空間的規劃來做處理所以有很多的問題可能要回歸到目的世界主管機關去處理這邊要特別提到剛剛有委員提到或者是我們的部落的主任有提到說"},{"start":16464.362,"end":16482.037,"text":"這個國土計畫法跟這個原基法的關聯這邊要強調說這個國土計畫法的立法的內容裡面有一些條文是涉及到原住民權益的其實當時就是因為有原基法的立法有連結到原基法的相關的立法精神意志還有一些法條所以在"},{"start":16483.058,"end":16499.011,"text":"國土計畫法像23條就特別明訂原基法21條要落實執行的這樣的條文另外在很多的這個相關的一些立法的說明裡面我們都會帶到原基法23條要尊重原住民族土地利用的規模另外要尊重到"},{"start":16499.851,"end":16520.577,"text":"原計法31條有關於要尊重這個原計法的精神有些相關的法令要修正廢止或者是制定的這都是在國土計畫法立法的過程裡面會裡面一直不斷的連結原計法的精神那另外提到這個國土計畫法跟這個自治區的區法的這個關聯那我想"},{"start":16521.877,"end":16545.885,"text":"目前會裡面知識區法已經在推動就是有幾個族群在做一些專案的這個會議諮詢的這個推動那例如是太魯閣族剛剛鐵拉委員的這個族群還有盧凱族還有北南族還有蘭嶼目前都在做這些相關的這個先前的這個專案的這些規劃的諮商的這樣的一個會議在進行那要等到他們的結論以後"},{"start":16546.872,"end":16548.234,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":16556.129,"end":16582.986,"text":"限定在某些區塊像它是限定在太魯閣國家公園或是林田山的這個文化園區那有的族群是希望教育文化的部分能夠自治所以這個面向非常的廣但是會裡面持續在推動另外剛剛黃忍提到的十幾項的疑慮不管是跟這個禁法補償的關係跟土海法立法內容的這個關聯還有地價的問題我想我們會用書面資料來回應"},{"start":16583.746,"end":16598.774,"text":"最後要講的就是這個剛剛鄉長特別提到說原鄉的部落或者是異見禮秀或者是相關的人員都不太了解國土計畫法這邊要強調說國土計畫法105年已經施行以後事實上原民會有成立了推動辦公室"},{"start":16599.875,"end":16622.273,"text":"那也辦理了部落的培立15場那專家學者座談12場那原鄉說明會110場教育訓練27場這邊要再補充就剛剛也有提到我們在那個在111年到113年有特別跟那個內政部協調能夠補助一些相關的經費做一些土地原鄉部落土地調查的這樣的工作"},{"start":16623.394,"end":16623.975,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":16640.418,"end":16640.498,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":16655.766,"end":16676.32,"text":"使用規範這個草案我們原住民族土地的這個使用規範的草案已經送到內政部在8月份已經送去那目前跟內政部也召開了5次的這個協商會議那也謝謝內政部在國土計畫法推動以後不管在經費上的支持還有一些法條上大家討論的過程"},{"start":16677.601,"end":16692.171,"text":"也都非常充分的尊重原民會的意見剛剛吳委員也特別提到國土計畫法對原住民是一個有機會翻轉的這樣的一個法我們非常期待我們希望能夠盡快的推動因為"},{"start":16693.035,"end":16717.721,"text":"原住民土地剛剛從一開始就講了從民國63年區域計畫法發布以後它就是一個最強烈最強度最高的限制所以在原鄉這60年來幾乎沒有變動原鄉的建地比如說63年區域法公佈它是3公頃的建地60年後它還是3公頃它沒有改變所以也造成原鄉的人口的外移很多產業的這樣的一個"},{"start":16719.441,"end":16720.262,"text":"以上是原民會的報告"},{"start":16749.773,"end":16750.894,"text":"邱文彥 榮譽教授"},{"start":16777.78,"end":16798.851,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進非常感謝召委舉辦這麼重要的一個研討會我想這個有幾點意見拜天各位高見之後我覺得這個可能對大家對這個國土計畫法的整個內容並不是很了解因為國土計畫法是從全國分三個階段從全國國土計畫"},{"start":16800.692,"end":16826.287,"text":"中央來負責來做這個全國的一個規範然後接下來呢是直轄市跟縣市政府來做的再來我們今天討論的這個工農分區圖呢其實是依照縣市的這個或者直轄市的地方政府所做的所以今天如果是國土工農分區有問題應該倒回去看地方政府當時是怎麼做的我覺得這一點很重要因為地方政府也聘請了專業的人規劃師"},{"start":16829.241,"end":16850.472,"text":"現場勘察然後再進行規劃有公展有預展有預告有公聽會那麼今天為什麼到這個時候呢反而質疑這個我們現在的規劃好像是內政部在壓迫一樣我是覺得內政部其實是非常的委屈我想這個可能大家更了解一點"},{"start":16851.532,"end":16879.179,"text":"當然聯合國對這個比如說海洋空間規劃的時候他會用一個叫做storytelling就是說故事的方法意思就是說官方的說明應該讓民眾聽得懂用淺顯易懂的方式所以我想是第一點可能對整個國土計畫的這個精神內容其實大家對這個計畫法的精神是沒有意義的也都支持只是說技術上面應該要考慮一下我有幾點小小的意見"},{"start":16880.279,"end":16907.262,"text":"因為國土計畫法純粹是處理國土空間的問題那麼相關部會不管是原住民的問題、農業的部門我覺得這個行政院我們建議行政院應該召開這個跨部會的一個討論確定一些相關的一些步調比如說要不要延伸到這個財劃法或者是部門計畫等等有回歸到第17條的這個規定那第二個就是現在有14個"},{"start":16909.163,"end":16931.755,"text":"縣市都已經送審了那送審我建議內政部就開始分批審查第三個就是說縣市政府其實為了因應地方那麼是不是現在因為因應地方的發展那麼現在是不是剛才董事長也特別提到了是不是可以開始啟動通盤檢討那麼因應地方的一個需求的發展那麼最後是不是有這個必要"},{"start":16932.875,"end":16933.616,"text":"謝謝邱教授 請問還有嗎 有沒有要第二輪發言的"},{"start":16959.974,"end":16985.371,"text":"好,如果沒有的話我們非常感謝今天各位專家學者提供的寶貴意見國土計畫法確實是我們國家土地的根本大法也是我們國家能夠永續發展的最基本的基本法也攸關著我們全民的權益"},{"start":16987.072,"end":17002.324,"text":"本席非常遺憾我們在第8屆就通過以來歷經8年多沒有想到今天這個公聽會我們發現還有這麼多的地方政府還有地方民意代表"},{"start":17004.366,"end":17006.668,"text":"中央級民意代表．立法委員"},{"start":17024.609,"end":17052.631,"text":"該溝通有溝要有通啊因為很多我們剛剛三個行政單位回應都說我有去我也都已經見了誰我也都講了但是對方可能沒有建立共識沒有互信還有他期望的相關的行政措施或者配套措施或是相關的一些法令還沒有完備"},{"start":17053.672,"end":17053.832,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":17075.498,"end":17094.004,"text":"都會讓他們有機會參加立法院修法的討論那我們今天所有的出列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料以及高金素美委員還有圖權級委員的所提的書面資料我們除了刊登公報"},{"start":17096.357,"end":17122.384,"text":"還有對我們還有今天我們也有在事先請各直轄市以及縣市政府提供的書面意見我們除了刊登公報之外我們還會另外製作公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員以及所有出列席人員參考再一次感謝大家的參與謝謝大家今天公聽會到此結束現在散會"},{"start":17133.468,"end":17133.61,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"156050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bf8b7601e03c922a86b4c0e929d5f577f0c31a177377941b7b803803d6f493de85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"09:25:37 - 09:33:18","影片長度":"00:07:41","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T09:25:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T09:33:18+08:00","duration":461,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.99159375,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.27096875,"end":163.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.46096875,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.91596875000002,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.95846875,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.69221875000002,"end":245.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.05159375000002,"end":267.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.63034375,"end":269.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.82409375000003,"end":330.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.43909375000004,"end":331.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.85221875,"end":344.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.87159375000005,"end":365.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.53909375,"end":370.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.65221875000003,"end":417.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.07534375,"end":452.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.95159375000003,"end":455.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.22971875,"end":458.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.04784375,"end":461.56221875000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.259,"end":35.779,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝在座各位委員各位行政部門官員和部長那謝謝大家的關注今天是一個非常重要的日子是台灣的一個關鍵的日子我知道大家剛才提出的種種的一些問題就是因為這麼多的困難所以我們先今天需要在這裡那上個禮拜一次國發"},{"start":37.54,"end":62.86,"text":"臺灣會公布臺灣人口最新的推估數字在這個數字裡面看到臺灣在未來50年會減少1000萬人然後我們的少子化提早了15年各項的指標加速的惡化臺灣已經成為全世界老化跟少子化速度最快的國家"},{"start":64.361,"end":80.609,"text":"所以也不只是說世界跟在世界後面走我們要走在世界的前面所以這是一個很關鍵的一個思維的大翻轉的關鍵時刻如果我們繼續用過去的一個思維我們是沒辦法化解這個危機的"},{"start":81.329,"end":109.315,"text":"所以大家看到這個數字1970年代的人口是一個金字塔當時高齡者只占人口2.9%到了2040年的人口推估圖是這樣子65歲以上占人口30.1%我們現在很多是停留在1970年代把老人當作少數的一個思維在規劃制度那現在已經迎向這裡了所以我們的確是腦筋要翻過來了"},{"start":111.175,"end":137.031,"text":"所以這個未來臺灣30年最重要的問題就是高齡化與少子化貫穿了整個政府所有的部會所有的行政那我知道當然最近這個這個因為總議選的問題朝野有些關係不太好不過希望大家這個跨越黨派因為臺灣是要往前走的那其實這個也不是也不是一個"},{"start":139.323,"end":162.86,"text":" 這個不是一個什麼創意 這個只是30年前日本已經在做了 30年前1995年日本已經制定了高齡社會對策基本法 設立了基本會議 是由內閣、中立大臣擔任召集人 跨部會的會議 我們已經延後了30年了 然後台灣現在在此時此地 我們難道還不要翻新嗎"},{"start":164.777,"end":192.467,"text":"這個法其實很簡單一個促進法的一個基本上他是一個循環循環的模式因為對面面對未來這麼龐大的高齡化少子化我們不可能都用攝服用補助用什麼樣的測試我們要產生一個循環那如何啟動這些龐大的未來佔主力的高齡人口讓他不要倒下來讓他成為生產力消費力才能夠幫助下一代"},{"start":194.108,"end":221.19,"text":"那另外一個就是這是一個雙軌制目前我們的衛福、社福的這邊已經花了很多的經費、心力我知道大家很辛苦但是只能照顧15%的失能者但是如果沒有把800萬的這些高齡的人口扶住的話讓他這樣傾斜下來的話會造成人口的土石流未來連這些照護都沒辦法照顧好所以這是一個雙軌制壯世代是一個發展性的政策"},{"start":223.755,"end":241.584,"text":"那這是個減輕年輕世代因為就扶養比來講因為高年化所以擔任分子被扶養的就會越來越大因為少子化所以分母就會越小壯世代有辦法就是把分子壯起來拉下來當分母就成為一個台灣壯台灣一個很強勁的底盤"},{"start":246.124,"end":268.732,"text":"那非常感謝各部會都大概有10個部會都提出了書面的報告均表認同這個方向每一個部會其實現在已經經過大概半年其實都有很多深入的溝通特別感謝勞動部部長勞動部高舉這個壯世代重返職場已經推動了每天都做很多的事情我也都知道那"},{"start":270.865,"end":292.494,"text":"那其實這個行政院有跨部會小組由陳時中政委來召集有13個部會加入了壯世代的一個計畫在推動所以這個也是卓院長認同然後在13個部會都有經過了很多的討論研議的不是突然蹦出來的東西"},{"start":293.214,"end":312.464,"text":"那我們8月12號召開了公聽會那立法院有一個撞出會有240幾位的專家學者共同研議這部分不是我個人去研發的200多位的專家學者每個月都在開會那在這一次4個小時的一個會當中有8個部會的次長全程參與"},{"start":313.865,"end":331.988,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":334.205,"end":349.353,"text":"另外這個法案內容基本上都沒有涉及利益的分配,事實上是一個方向性、宣示性。那為什麼大家也會覺得跌宰嫁污,但是也不是一個跌宰嫁污,是一個方向性的。"},{"start":350.333,"end":370.062,"text":"必須去重視因為以我們現在的法令我們事實上是沒辦法解決未來正在發展的搞隱化少子化的問題的我們少子化一年要1000億的預算投入但是我們的少子化快速的跌破快速的連續的跌破要破10萬人了"},{"start":371.741,"end":395.847,"text":"那很重要的壯世代五十五歲上先有七百甚至四萬人都即將被你退休人生在我們的這個定義裡面那如何翻轉這七百萬的壯世代讓他不會成為一個海嘯壓垮了我們的下一代然後能夠繼續成為國家發展的動力是整個這一步伐的核心精神那因為這樣子所以每一個"},{"start":396.067,"end":396.207,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":418.154,"end":435.727,"text":"那最後就是臺灣我們再經過兩個月就要進入超高齡社會65歲以上占人口的20%以上那我們現在如何對全民來做一個交代臺灣進入超高齡社會我們拿出什麼東西讓人民放心我們提出什麼樣的一個政策照目前的這樣子嗎"},{"start":436.488,"end":451.673,"text":"目前所作的作為當中已經證明將國法案所提出來的是一個變得更嚴重的社會了所以我希望大家齊心齊力不是屬於哪一個黨不是屬於哪一個人而是屬於大家我們共同在寫歷史共同來創造這歷史拜託大家謝謝謝謝謝謝委員的詳細說明好我們接下來請勞動部和部長"}]}},{"id":"156035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bf70092fb29d268acab8b279c62a4e0dc14dc9c52315f49e5e4ab110b5714ccc85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:04:36 - 09:06:20","影片長度":"00:01:44","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T09:04:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T09:06:20+08:00","duration":104,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.4697187500000001,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.58159375,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.324093750000003,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.758468750000002,"end":16.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.83846875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.68159375,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.02846875,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.91409375,"end":48.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.86721875,"end":58.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.469093750000006,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.75346875000001,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.25534375000001,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.43221875,"end":82.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.71846875,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.17346875000001,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.01221875,"end":103.39034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.706,"end":15.323,"text":"主席在場委員先進列席政務局院長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生關於刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十本席領銜提出修正提案那麼重點在於"},{"start":15.888,"end":41.961,"text":"在為了彰顯政府打擊詐騙我們立法院也落實法制規範那麼引進了高科技的偵查犯罪行為包括透過GPS透過M化車等科技偵查工具為了要取得這樣的證據在法院審理時具有證據能力那麼在今年7月的時候我們成功的三讀通過了刑事訴訟法的科技偵查專章"},{"start":43.081,"end":69.783,"text":"那麼授權給檢警在偵查時能使用運用高科技的工具避免落後於詐騙集團人家笑的說說我們偵辦者的科技能力追不上詐騙集團的進步那麼受到科技偵查的人民如果認為自己的權利受到侵犯那麼目前依照刑事訴訟法第153條之十條可以對於法官"},{"start":70.323,"end":94.244,"text":"或檢察官准許的科技偵查手段提出救濟。然而在目前通過之後學界就有批評因為司法警察也有可能是發動科技偵查的主體然而我們在通過的條文文藝上卻僅限於法官檢察官他的科技偵查民眾才能針對他們二者的科技偵查才能提出救濟因此本次提案的重點"},{"start":94.924,"end":103.309,"text":"是將法官檢察官修改成只要是對民眾對於科技偵查的處分不符都能夠進行救濟以上說明"}]}},{"id":"156068","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156068","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b1d966f4cef5e5242bee181499f78d5300c31a177377941b7b90a6bc0bf914cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:01:52 - 10:07:28","影片長度":"00:05:36","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T10:01:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T10:07:28+08:00","duration":336,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.658468750000001,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.400343750000001,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.180343750000002,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.309718750000002,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.65159375,"end":58.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.46034375000001,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.92846875,"end":62.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.05471875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.20221875,"end":66.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.67034375,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.50971875,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.15034375,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.45596875000001,"end":97.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.24346875,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.22971875,"end":106.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.42346875000001,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.15596875000001,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.05034375000001,"end":130.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.98096875000002,"end":139.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.80659375000002,"end":141.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.59096875,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.45534375,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.27721875,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.33409375000002,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.02596875,"end":172.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.18534375000002,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.38534375,"end":193.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.85721875000002,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.37534375,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.96034375000002,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.60534375,"end":218.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.89971875,"end":232.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.90159375000002,"end":237.54659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.17096875000001,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.44909375,"end":241.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.52909375000002,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.31284375,"end":251.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.24471875,"end":255.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.42971875,"end":263.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.88846875,"end":268.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.83284375,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.06346875,"end":281.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.46784375000004,"end":288.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.32346875,"end":304.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.75971875000005,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.52721875000003,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.50971875000005,"end":314.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.96471875000003,"end":316.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.13346875,"end":316.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.62284375,"end":318.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.52971875000003,"end":322.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.27159375,"end":330.24096875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.022,"end":29.994,"text":"謝謝主席各位親愛的家人大家早安近期國土計畫法的推行引發了廣泛的爭議尤其是在土地使用和社會影響的問題上這個不法案將於2025年正式實施"},{"start":30.794,"end":58.56,"text":"指在對土地使用進行全面規劃和管理然而該法的實施過程中面臨諸多的挑戰和質疑首先許多地方政府對於計畫的具體實施時間表表示擔憂多數縣市無法如期完成土地"},{"start":61.041,"end":65.846,"text":"國土分區園的國土分區圖的提報"},{"start":73.548,"end":94.664,"text":"這使得法律的實施變得更加複雜例如苗栗縣、雲林縣、台中市等其他縣市對中央政府要求表示不滿認為這可能影響當地農業發展的需求並呼應暫緩法"},{"start":98.711,"end":117.405,"text":"這個法案的實施以免對農業縣的影響過大本黨團的立場就是場關協各界要充分溝通不主張延後實施與否再次說明"},{"start":118.266,"end":137.674,"text":"本黨團立場就希望長官協還有農業各個部會充分溝通不主張延後實施與否其次法律具體內容也引起了社會各界討論和不安國土計畫法"},{"start":142.568,"end":165.247,"text":"花定了多種土地的用途包括國土保育區和農業發展區等然而這樣的花分可能會影響到地方的土地使用權特別對原住民的土地及農地的影響"},{"start":167.529,"end":186.466,"text":"這使得許多農民和原住民感到不安我認為法律和實施需要考量到地方的文化和社會的特點以避免產生過大的社會矛盾"},{"start":189.454,"end":211.463,"text":"另外法律的推行可能會導致土地市場的動盪專家指出非都市的土地的重新劃分可能會引發土地炒作的問題然而一點在過去"},{"start":212.917,"end":232.569,"text":"這一點在過去經驗中已經表現得十分明顯例如曾經發生的大補案這就是因為土地徵收和用途變更而引起社會衝突對於新法的實施中"},{"start":233.956,"end":262.514,"text":"中央政府與地方政府都需要更加謹慎儘管國土計畫法的推行目的是為了促進土地的可繼續發展和合理的利用但實施的過程的爭議表明政府需要更加謹慎地考量地方需求和影響"},{"start":263.982,"end":276.756,"text":"社會的影響未來如何在法律的框架內平等各方利益確保公平土地的使用將成為決定這個不法成敗的關鍵"},{"start":282.783,"end":309.582,"text":"國土計畫法的推行引發爭議反映了土地管理在台灣的複雜性與敏感性未來的發展需要更多的對話和協商以便能在促進經濟的發展的同時保障社會與和諧的穩定讓我們大家達成共榮共榮的目標"},{"start":311.527,"end":313.589,"text":"請成功大學都市計畫學系特聘教授張學聖教授"}]}},{"id":"156067","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156067","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bcf6e45f8ffda3447bee181499f78d5300c31a177377941b7d4739e4e9503208b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:46:55 - 09:51:55","影片長度":"00:05:00","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T09:46:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T09:51:55+08:00","duration":300,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.076593750000001,"end":24.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.90471875,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.80909375,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.57659375,"end":84.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.59159375,"end":130.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.41971875000002,"end":187.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.13659375,"end":232.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.99034375000002,"end":234.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.72846875000002,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.40659375,"end":263.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.87159375000005,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.70846875,"end":281.72534375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.123,"end":18.693,"text":"主席還有今天與會的各位官員還有各位專案學者以及各位委員大家早在民國104年12月的《國土計畫法》立法通過之後因為為了確保國人的糧食安全所以全國劃設了81萬公頃的這個宜維農的這個面積那為了這些農地"},{"start":24.958,"end":25.098,"text":"農業縣未來的發展"},{"start":41.408,"end":41.848,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":69.804,"end":93.2,"text":"紅樓202會議"},{"start":93.84,"end":98.161,"text":"目前雲林縣劃設的農一面積高達60839公頃大概佔全國的21.8%而劃為農二的面積才26641公頃而這些土地的限制只能做農用而農地的面積劃設過大已經影響雲林縣未來的發展所以說是不是我們看一下同樣是農地"},{"start":118.766,"end":120.707,"text":"中央可否有一致的畫色標準?"},{"start":137.651,"end":160.142,"text":"是不是如果雲林縣可以比照這個屏東縣的畫色標準的話雲林縣農藝的面積就可以從60839公頃減少到5836公頃所以呢這樣子才有辦法減少雲林縣農地被判死刑的面積也才能讓精華土地留下來被妥善的利用所以在這邊也要求我們中央應該是要有統一的畫色標準"},{"start":163.124,"end":187.442,"text":"農一跟農二的差異其實目前很多農民都還搞不清楚而農業部的具體的補償方案也沒有遲遲公告而且還有我們一些執法也尚未公佈所以為什麼會有基層農會也不曉得怎麼跟農民說明因此有99%的農會也反對《國土計畫法》如期的上路所以修法展演勢在必行"},{"start":188.283,"end":201.73,"text":"而我們來看一下為了保障國人的糧食安全政府立法限制農民的農地使用致使農民蒙受損失而政府應該編列預算給予補償依照中華民國憲法第15條的規定人民的財產權應該予以保障在釋字第440號也指出國家機關依法行使公權利"},{"start":212.636,"end":240.775,"text":"民眾的財產遭受損失形成個人的特別犧牲時國家也應予合理的補償但是到目前為止有沒有看到我們目前有關的機關提出良好的對策與補償方式那我們可以看到其實我們現在很多農地目前都算是不良的農地現在都可以作為光電的設用租金一公頃大概是一年是40萬"},{"start":242.436,"end":242.556,"text":"主席"},{"start":263.971,"end":292.259,"text":"那我想到目前為止草野立委總共提出了國土計畫法第45條修正草案總共有18案而委員們也接獲很多的陳情跟抱怨全國農民都對即將上路的國土計畫法感到憂慮希望能夠展延實行那本席也有提案希望能夠施行的日期再展延兩年讓中央有更多的時間可以制定更完整的配套跟補償的政策"},{"start":292.679,"end":292.719,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"156069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b1e4ecce64a0c9922bee181499f78d5300c31a177377941b77bed10a2a74c501c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:24:12 - 10:29:41","影片長度":"00:05:29","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T10:24:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T10:29:41+08:00","duration":329,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.31784375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.12784375,"end":6.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":4.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.341593750000001,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.305968750000005,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":97.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.17596875000001,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.21346875,"end":102.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.69846875,"end":106.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.54596875,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.13159375000001,"end":322.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.89971875000003,"end":329.97096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.331,"end":6.339,"text":"發言完之後我們休息5分鐘讓大家可以休息使用洗手間"},{"start":10.57,"end":34.038,"text":"感謝內政委員會徐昭偉今天排定這場公聽會希望藉由這場公聽會讓國土計畫法能夠更加的完備今天在座相當多的學者專家其中有許多人在8年以前都曾經是參與制定一路看顧著國土法通過的重要推手可以這麼說國土法的大方向是沒有問題的"},{"start":34.858,"end":52.499,"text":"民意是良好的然而國土法這樣牽動國家百年大計的大法是必要有相當多的配套可是大家都知道相關的執法到目前都未其備這已經是說到不知道該怎麼說了行政機關的不作為"},{"start":53.98,"end":66.087,"text":"民意難堪沒有辦法其實我都懷疑行政機關自己都不想推動否則為什麼到現在為止此法11都沒有辦法11的落實包括過去這段時間以來農業部一再說針對全國農地會推出一套堆疊式補助措施雖然並非完全與國土法"},{"start":76.073,"end":99.455,"text":"掛鉤但其對農一農二是否有不同的農政資源投入無不牽動著農地持有人的權益這套措施原本預計9月底要公告但現在已經10月底了也不知道進度如何甚至在質詢台上也問不出結果所以呢本席強烈的在這裡"},{"start":101.28,"end":127.115,"text":"想要說這麼一部利益良好的百年大法它就是讓這些不溝通不作為的行政機關所耽誤了《國土法》攸關著這個2350萬人的權益攸關著台灣未來生存發展我們需要的是一個完整的方案對於推動國土計畫法絕對不能抱持著先求有"},{"start":127.695,"end":129.416,"text":"主管機關能夠有所回應首先就是農業權應該納入國土計畫法為了保障農民的權益"},{"start":156.195,"end":159.998,"text":"雲林縣政府在110年就率先提出農業權的主張為什麼要主張農業權因為優良農地它不是平均分布在我們的國土之中有些縣市的農地多有些縣市幾乎沒有農地負擔但糧食安全國家安全"},{"start":174.227,"end":183.551,"text":"是全國各縣市人民都要負擔的責任那不是特定縣市就應該有所犧牲所以我們主張從進城應將農業貢獻納入財政劃分權重內中城加入農業轉移權概念遠程推動農業發展權入法"},{"start":196.076,"end":203.843,"text":"國土法針對農業權基金特別成立特別基金農業縣市應配合國家糧食安全的政策產生的農地財產限制為了平衡農業縣市的付出應該給予這些農業縣市財產的補償中央應於國土法中載明成立"},{"start":217.637,"end":233.131,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":233.391,"end":247.77,"text":"國土計畫法應該納入農業發展權轉移制度針對農地制度亦應由中央統一規劃農業發展權轉移制度依人口及其他發展指標推估各縣市應負擔之"},{"start":249.792,"end":269.862,"text":"國家糧食安全之責任而在有農地不足的縣市向農地面積過度負擔的縣市購買以補足其負擔之面積除了可以解決農業縣市為了負擔糧食安全所產生的特別犧牲問題之外更是達成土地公平正義"},{"start":270.882,"end":274.884,"text":"因為只有公平只有正義才能夠讓國土法可長可久第4點國土法原定之期程應展延有鑒於農業權為充分獲得保障農村地區整體規劃未入法農業堆疊式補助未出爐相關配套措施能未完善且民眾對於國土計畫法"},{"start":295.094,"end":295.374,"text":"國土計畫法更加的完備謝謝"},{"start":327.4,"end":327.823,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"156129","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156129","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bf1c82a18b88c220cbee181499f78d5305966be1ac5b6e0f9dc5543f29fdbc7c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:06:19 - 12:11:17","影片長度":"00:04:58","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:06:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:11:17+08:00","duration":298,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.52846875,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.89409375,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.17721875,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.61721875,"end":119.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.50971875,"end":95.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.11346875000001,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.61784375000002,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.72596875000002,"end":288.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.12034375,"end":296.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.814,"end":21.857,"text":"謝謝主席今天我們針對國土計畫法修正的公聽會進行發言這我們的主題叫做不否定理想但不忽略民意這國土計畫法現在要推行的幾個狀況我們有義務要跟大家做報告我從三個面向來做分析其一叫做政策的節奏跟配套是失靈的狀態"},{"start":23.118,"end":47.979,"text":"現在很多地方政府今天之所以開公聽會其實都有非常多不管是書面或者是親自的反應也好相關的配套法制其實尚未完備比如說中央各部會的法令競合還沒有解決相關的目的事業機關的一些配套的法令還沒有進入修法甚至國土計畫法的相關執法也都還沒有進行全部的公告那麼這樣子的一個狀況會導致地方政府在執行中央的遊戲規則的時候遇到非常大的障礙"},{"start":48.519,"end":68.718,"text":"他不只是會影響所謂的執行的成效更大的壓力其實來自於各地方政府在跟基層做溝通的時候會出現非常大的障礙如果地方的基層他們在開說明會或是什麼的時候提出各式各樣的問題但是政府總不能猜自己中央政府的台吧說這些東西都還沒有出來畢竟是難以服眾的所以今天會出現延遲的訴求其實我們並不意外"},{"start":71.58,"end":100.7,"text":"我們也希望這件事情能夠妥善的來解決比如說舉個相對具體的例子現行的區域計畫的制度要轉軌到國土計畫的時候它的緩衝機制是什麼它的落日條款是什麼這就是一個很大的一個問題那現在沒有落日機制沒有緩衝的時間的情況之下就是大家就認為說土地變更要關門啦所以大量的案子送到地方政府光是因應這些個案的需求就癱瘓掉了所以說很難再抽出時間或者是在針對法案的內容或者是什麼再去做溝通跟說明"},{"start":101.22,"end":101.7,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":120.225,"end":148.403,"text":"今天我們把話挑明了來講今天為什麼會出現這麼大的一個爭議不就是因為長久以來中華民國政府始終都沒有辦法解決土地大開發主義是能夠獲取暴利最好的方式嗎以至於所有的土地所有權人這是他本來都應有而且可以被期待的利益啊有一個這麼龐大的利益在前面的時候他怎麼會希望自己的土地被認定是優良農地必須農用呢從理想的角度來講這是對的但是從土地所有權人的角度來出發這不免"},{"start":148.883,"end":150.264,"text":"中文字幕 by 沛隊字幕組"},{"start":174.804,"end":194.056,"text":"今天最大的爭議除了國寶地之外大概就是農業、農地、農用的問題大家一方面土地這個開發它未來的這個利益無窮相對來講我守著農地我沒有一個好的政策我的獲益有限我的人才流失我政府的所有農業政策大部分也就是補貼為邏輯發點錢給你你兌付過去就算了"},{"start":197.172,"end":226.432,"text":"當然我守住農地沒有誘因開發而有誘因那所有的地主當然就會不樂見國土計畫往這樣的方向來實踐所以這個民意的壓力就導致這個理想受到了很大的阻礙國土法的理想最後淪為治標而不治本的時候當然就會爭議頻傳所以我們在那邊誠懇的呼籲中央政府這個恐怕不是內政部單獨可以解決的事情行政院的高度跨部會的來針對這樣子的一個案件跟衝擊去做更完善的配套我想是有必要的"},{"start":226.892,"end":243.779,"text":"最後我要講第三個面向也就是執政黨在這個題目上應該要有絕對的明確的態度剛剛我們講不管是跨部會政策的協調問題或者是單就國土計畫法推動的時候的溝通跟配套的問題其實都是政府的責任到底現在的僵局啊"},{"start":244.059,"end":244.339,"text":"《國土計畫法修正草案》"},{"start":260.121,"end":288.124,"text":"這麼多的問題要如何一一梳理如何一一來因應其實都是政府的責任我們希望這件事情在經過今天的公聽會各方各面不同角度學者專家民意代表的發言之後可以讓我們的內政部讓我們甚至到行政院對於國土計畫法有更立體的了解我們也期待行政院從院的高度提出更完善的配套措施如此才有辦法在兼顧理想的情況之下讓國土計畫法順利的來推動以上 謝謝"},{"start":292.179,"end":294.592,"text":"好謝謝牛煦庭委員我們接下來請雲林縣農會總幹事"}]}},{"id":"156128","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156128","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b5a6e85596b05bf5cbee181499f78d5305966be1ac5b6e0f94a7ded5c40f3c2c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"11:39:35 - 11:57:22","影片長度":"00:17:47","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:39:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:57:22+08:00","duration":1067,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.77346875,"end":5.835968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.392843750000001,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.603468750000001,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.04159375,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.922218750000003,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.04846875,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.136593750000003,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.97159375,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.50721875,"end":35.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.227843750000005,"end":37.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.57784375,"end":40.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.362218750000004,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.72471875,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.947843750000004,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.59721875,"end":53.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.845343750000005,"end":59.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.22409375,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.844093750000006,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.65784375,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.89346875000001,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.47471875000001,"end":77.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.26721875,"end":84.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.64221875000001,"end":90.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.22346875000001,"end":93.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.10909375,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.81659375000001,"end":108.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.22909375,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.46409375,"end":118.79721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.99534375,"end":120.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.75471875000001,"end":136.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.60034375,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.34659375,"end":157.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.23409375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.70596875,"end":171.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.85221875000002,"end":180.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.54284375,"end":182.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.32721875000001,"end":187.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.49096875,"end":199.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.96596875,"end":207.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.25159375,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.93409375000002,"end":225.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.17284375000003,"end":230.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.52221875,"end":245.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.93346875,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.57534375,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.80284375,"end":274.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.00909375000003,"end":286.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.39534375,"end":294.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.22534375000004,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.56221875,"end":310.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.22284375000004,"end":325.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.49471875,"end":336.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.90659375,"end":337.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.61534375,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.73909375,"end":360.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.04284375000003,"end":356.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.68346875000003,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.14471875000004,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.36784375,"end":387.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.91971875,"end":390.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.20596875,"end":402.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.41096875000005,"end":405.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.61721875,"end":410.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.17346875000004,"end":411.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.10159375,"end":412.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.28284375000004,"end":415.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.88159375000004,"end":422.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.23909375000005,"end":430.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.45721875000004,"end":437.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.98346875000004,"end":450.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.48784375,"end":459.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.89159375,"end":469.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.23596875000004,"end":476.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.71596875000006,"end":483.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.78659375,"end":484.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.01846875,"end":494.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.95784375000005,"end":500.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.61096875000004,"end":501.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.28159375,"end":503.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.64846875,"end":507.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.10346875000005,"end":544.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.22846875,"end":546.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.13534375,"end":550.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.7465937500001,"end":555.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.30284375,"end":562.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.77846875,"end":585.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.40784375,"end":590.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.1453437499999,"end":649.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.93346875,"end":655.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.3715937500001,"end":657.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.53159375,"end":683.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.0590937500001,"end":686.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.4890937499999,"end":735.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.30409375,"end":754.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.6809687500001,"end":758.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.1740937500001,"end":773.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.92471875,"end":761.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":773.5134687500001,"end":774.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.40346875,"end":783.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.41471875,"end":785.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.0178437500001,"end":793.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.8647187500001,"end":805.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.60534375,"end":813.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.7434687500001,"end":820.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":820.79721875,"end":827.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.85096875,"end":829.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.5047187500002,"end":837.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":837.7903437500001,"end":843.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":843.62909375,"end":850.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.9865937500001,"end":854.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":855.01971875,"end":859.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.60971875,"end":872.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.5190937500001,"end":873.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.41346875,"end":880.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":880.88909375,"end":885.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":885.9853437500001,"end":899.1140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.56971875,"end":909.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":910.09971875,"end":913.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":914.04846875,"end":920.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":921.1359687500001,"end":927.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":927.95346875,"end":936.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":937.01534375,"end":937.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":938.6015937500001,"end":938.7703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":939.52971875,"end":942.0103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":942.3984687500001,"end":943.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":943.86659375,"end":946.0772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":946.7522187500001,"end":950.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":950.6840937500001,"end":955.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":956.3034687500001,"end":961.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":961.2140937500001,"end":978.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":979.16909375,"end":980.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":980.6203437500001,"end":990.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":990.6609687500002,"end":1008.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1009.94909375,"end":1016.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1016.9353437500001,"end":1022.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1022.79096875,"end":1044.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1045.18409375,"end":1059.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1060.9959687500002,"end":1061.9747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1063.2572187500002,"end":1066.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1066.1934687500002,"end":1067.50971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.776,"end":25.132,"text":"好 那個本席啊針對國土心法倉促上路必定影響民眾權益那我相信今天整場的公聽會執行到現在我們大家都非常敬重邱文彥、邱老師、邱教授但是這一路您在推動但是現在公佈至今可以說是用全民大反彈"},{"start":26.973,"end":44.144,"text":"來形容現在這個法案所以我也要請我們相關的部門包括內政部主責要很清楚今天我這個國土計畫法上路之後我解決了什麼問題而不是在製造無限的問題我現在看不出你所面對的問題現在所有的民怨"},{"start":53.905,"end":79.423,"text":"你內政部或者當初推動的人有提出你的配套嗎沒有所以請不要再製造更多的問題那你說你解決了什麼問題你解決了國土的破碎嗎你解決了我的保育嗎你解決了我的這個農業自主力提高嗎我完全沒有好本席就一一的拔書"},{"start":81.451,"end":102.176,"text":"國土計畫的功能延遲繳交這是現況那就是有些縣市基於地方的陳情暗塞太多他算不出來好那第二個國土計畫法的爭議那本席也幫我所見所聞來跟大家做個分享第三個國土計畫法的挑戰跟困難第四個民眾權益如何保障"},{"start":102.856,"end":103.116,"text":"最後我有具體建議"},{"start":120.026,"end":127.352,"text":"好 這個延遲繳交我們目前是到原則上113年12月以前內政部國審會就要進入到審議了那今年的6月就陸續報佈那確實狀況如何呢現在到5月現在為止未繳交的還有8個縣市"},{"start":141.383,"end":155.315,"text":"國土工人分區劃分的爭議本席所見所聞跟大家分享第一個劃分土地使用分區時部分地區認為劃分方法未能兼顧經濟發展跟環境保護"},{"start":158.337,"end":178.992,"text":"第2個農業發展地區劃設是過於嚴苛恐會影響人口增長或經濟發展需求更高這是本席非常匪夷所知我們現在國土計畫法叫做神的法案它完全沒有個案變更有它的個案變更只在於什麼那來地方五年通盤檢討全國的十年通盤檢討就本席所接到的選民服務只要地方五年通盤檢討一下它都得搞十年"},{"start":188.507,"end":189.868,"text":"公共設施用地的規劃不夠充足可能造成日後的基礎設施是不足的"},{"start":215.291,"end":230.166,"text":"三地聚落的劃分不能因原住民跟非原住民而有不同而要適用這樣的國土計畫法我們現在國土計畫我同樣在一個山區因為我是原住民身份我可以開發我不是原住民身份我在這個山區我不能開發我被你限制住了"},{"start":231.564,"end":235.505,"text":"然後再來通盤檢討五年一次缺乏個案邊桿機制是阻礙區域發展而且這是沒收地方首長他對於一個城市發展的權益完全沒有地方發語權你說這是神的法案專制的法案再來他能面臨的挑戰跟困難我們說希望達到這些因應氣候變遷兼顧國土保育城鄉發展促進國土永續發展糧食安全我本席一一的破解"},{"start":258.713,"end":286.261,"text":"制定與執行方面應遇到的哪些困難跟挑戰好民間反彈第一個較嚴格的土地使用管制可能影響部分民眾跟團體的權益我農地違規工廠我現在已經在變更當中了你們採不採幾乎一刀切全部都不用了都從頭來了都市跟因為我經濟部中部辦公室在處理的就是非都市計畫內的農地上工廠"},{"start":287.458,"end":307.905,"text":"你們現在全部我們花了多大的力氣在農地上工廠的合法根本沒有限地合法這件事情如果有人說農地上工廠是就地合法那是在騙人每一個哪一個不是遵照相關的法規在執行好現在你這個審討下去之後我都市非都市計畫內的農地上工廠全部化為無有"},{"start":311.306,"end":325.19,"text":"都市更新的整備地區原住民部落我們也反彈宗教的相關的所有的團體也在反彈你這個法之後我新辦中的沒有新辦已經申請的還未達到耕地變更的我已經新辦已經完成那也還沒達到變更的這些全部都沒有欸這些你們全部都不認了按照現在來講全部不認你們說你們這是在製造台灣的動亂"},{"start":336.954,"end":356.007,"text":"好部門的衝突國土計畫法涉及的是多個中央跟地方政府的部門的權責跟責任內政部經部部農業部環保署現在是環境部部門之間對國土的目標原則指標分區等方向有不同的看法或利益考量就會產生溝通協調上的困難跟衝突"},{"start":359.769,"end":378.422,"text":"執行效率你國土計畫要求中央與地方在一定期限內完成各級國土計畫的制定跟實施並定期檢討跟修正但是國土計畫是一項龐大且複雜的系統需要投入大量的人力物力跟時間你們的人力在哪裡你國土計畫變更的人力在哪裡"},{"start":382.541,"end":410.333,"text":"行政中央跟地方的公務人員就好他本身對國土計畫法的認知是有一致嗎沒有我的人民認為我這個是開發區啊你政府認為是地方政府也認為是開發區啊你中央送上來不好意思我認為是國土保護區啊這就是現況好執行效率所以當然一定會你們光是公務人員體系中央地方有沒有一致的認知"},{"start":411.343,"end":427.834,"text":"這沒有的好再來規劃劃設是不夠周全的連我們農業部前部長都說國土計畫法在完整三路前的執行過程背道是未到位的張景生政委他也發表在這個記者訪問他也講他說這個會是另外一個國土災難好這個風險有哪幾個風險一第一個難以達成國土計畫法的終止目標這才是本席"},{"start":439.325,"end":450.442,"text":"我相信在這邊發言的人沒有人說他不支持我們的國家永續發展不支持環境保育沒有人我相信"},{"start":451.55,"end":453.351,"text":"全球因海平面上升造成土地跟農地的受影響國家排名台灣名列前茅啊"},{"start":470.846,"end":482.681,"text":"這將環境變遷國科會所提出的國家氣候變遷科學報告2024年現象衝擊及調適報告中更指出台灣各地所面臨的海平面上升的威脅"},{"start":484.294,"end":494.502,"text":"淹水 破地的災害 地下水的補助不足這些氣候變遷 倘若農地發展地區第一類第二類是土地無水可用你怎麼能夠確保它糧食生產的可實現性第二個風險 風險二 良安所以剛才你的標準我全部一一給你破解掉"},{"start":508.491,"end":526.992,"text":"兩岸風險的增加自給率絕對向低融一的面積是少於區域化區域計畫法中的特定農業區唷這句話是現在各縣政府呈上來你的融一面積竟然是少於我區域化法的特定的面積你說你要講什麼農業自主那個糧食自主率啊"},{"start":527.552,"end":550.078,"text":"第2個原本只要約有3至4萬公頃河川地在不影響防洪的前提下長期做農業使用是台灣重要蔬菜瓜果的產地卻被列為國土保育區你看看我台灣西海岸河川地都在種植你現在劃下去國土計畫法之後好你說什麼良安"},{"start":550.799,"end":559.866,"text":"那個是我重要的蔬果瓜菜類啊你們有沒有考慮到現況第三個我現在講本席講的本席當了七屆的立委來自地方我現在講的都是實況都市計畫下的10萬公頃的農地當中農業鋪陳盤點有近3萬公頃的是優良的農地英方在農業發展地區的第五類但最後各縣市政府卻是依據地方發展需求將大部分符合完整且高比例農用"},{"start":580.403,"end":600.869,"text":"條件的榮地放入城鄉發展區這在屏東縣送上來的一清二楚他能夠高風險他全部這個是縣長英明說實在如果我是來自地方我會支持這樣做我要逃避你嘛但是真的有達到你的目的良安沒有最後上述三個地區加總超過10萬喔我河川地我10萬都市計畫下的10萬公頃的榮地"},{"start":602.769,"end":623.886,"text":"等待包括你農業的面積這個超過10萬公頃是重要生產地的農地卻未列入優良農地的範圍這樣的農業發展地區劃設恐讓台灣的農業生產力降低導致糧食自主力下降提高糧食安全的風險風險三 農地管理及品質未提升"},{"start":624.766,"end":649.397,"text":"農業部原來是預計將全國國土計畫劃設地區來模擬農醫的面積是多少33萬7千公斤但各縣市政府報上來的農醫才多少27萬7千公斤相較之下少了6萬公斤倘若土地管治管理制度為能合理配套處理必定造成農業生產力下降"},{"start":650.953,"end":654.795,"text":"聽清楚 這個數據不是我講的 是現在送上來的資料風險是阻礙農業發展許多農業休閒地區或農場被劃為國土保育地區限縮了具百億元價值的休閒農場的發展若以為將山坡地直接劃為國土保育區就可以達到保育目的卻不細緻區分環境敏感程度及影響輕重"},{"start":677.248,"end":683.273,"text":"除了畫色成果完成和事實有嚴重落差更會造成保育跟農業的雙數好這個是我們地方議員我這個高雄整個在這個整個山區高雄縣市合併12年這是我以市議會有議員他提出來的"},{"start":695.422,"end":710.867,"text":"城鄉差距卻愈來愈大我高雄縣市六都當中又與高雄市的城鄉落差最為嚴重好我就以他這句話東高雄其美九區人口流失嚴重好城鄉均衡發展地方要求要有適宜性的產業發展"},{"start":712.507,"end":735.288,"text":"這是我們來自山區喔都是農作的喔他也希望有能夠有產業發展增加就業機會合理化的預算分配跟優化基礎交通名聲是他們不是要蓋工廠但是他希望在農業的部分有農業的有農業的一個一個產業化好但是我們話說下去我整個東九區全部都叫做保育區了"},{"start":736.683,"end":740.325,"text":"民眾權益如何保障國土計畫法實施前民眾已依區域計畫法等相關規定提出新辦計畫及申請用地變更為程序尚未完成後續怎麼辦理目前內政部說不出話來他們只有NO這個可嚴重了"},{"start":754.815,"end":782.778,"text":"我未完成新辦事業計畫的第二種是已完成新辦計畫何種未完成使用變更編訂的再來第三種已完成新辦事業計畫及使用土地變更但未完成地級異動變更的各位長官這個如果今天國土計畫法真的在明年5月1號實施不好意思這三個全部化為烏有"},{"start":784.728,"end":790.272,"text":"我具體要求國土工人分區劃分範圍較大不應剛性的一刀切分區劃設與法規應依定制宜且有個案變更的程序保有土地你說要保運就現有的區計法法加嚴處理就可以了"},{"start":806.653,"end":807.174,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":827.935,"end":849.728,"text":"好再來第一個本席認為各部會對於土地發展的目標不一應該由行政院主責協調各部會並配合國家重大發展的政策使國土計畫法花費最大效益第二個應給予地方政府較多的自主性以因應當地區域發展的需求現在每一個地方政府秘方所長奪平不分藍綠"},{"start":851.058,"end":854.1,"text":"好 你這樣一線是整個地方發展首長都沒有話語權了啦連說話的講的話都是空頭白話哪一個產業不需要土 你講到任何東西都要土地啊好 重新檢視全台國土工人分區劃分社必要時派源縣地勘查派源縣地勘查以利劃設這個合適的分區第四個優先保留原生聚落的縣況好 像這個我就有意見"},{"start":880.999,"end":908.826,"text":"你在山區當中人家這邊四代居住已經住了三四代了好那你就叫欸這個本來呢這個從35平可能變成了60平或者70平好現在呢你你到底國土計畫法是從你現在是70平這個現況認定還是說你們你們現在會引起民怨就是說好你現在原來按照現在的法規喔你還是只能35平啊但是你現在60平喔可以我允許你你要繳回饋金"},{"start":910.306,"end":935.918,"text":"這是你們的做法我們政府單位做法但本期的做法就不是這樣我說你既然新法就新法認定你現在變成60坪我就認定你60坪好那你的污水處理我就要求你在山區當中檢疫的污水你要搬下去啊檢疫污水10萬塊就處理掉了政府可以補助啊這就是不會引起民怨我可以達到我環境的保育我可以兼顧我山區長久居住的居民的權益好好"},{"start":940.615,"end":955.175,"text":"最後我具體建議我希望主席本席在這邊很難得看到一個可以藍綠有共識的法案我絕對支持我們立法院的言議希望主席你要有尬子"},{"start":956.6,"end":969.505,"text":"對於全民大反彈的法案我希望這個主席你真的要有尬子堅持在我們大家整個民意的收成之下你一定要全力讓他通過讓我們立法院的版本通過延長本期都認為不是延長啦都應該廢掉期限你要改革你要循序漸進哪幾個區你可以趕快先通過了哪幾個區"},{"start":979.569,"end":1006.78,"text":"台北市 金門 連江縣 金門縣 連江縣 嘉義縣他整個區都是都市計畫的區域啊你趕快先行啊其他有的你可以慢慢的爬梭哪幾個縣市你到底遇到什麼問題我去再爬梭的第二階段我再來做也許相關的你要達到國土計畫法的這些這五個你的宗旨那我們再去爬梭你可以怎麼做可是第一個階段循序漸進你這幾個縣市就可以讓他縣市先行了"},{"start":1010.637,"end":1031.721,"text":"我剛才就具體建議台北市金門縣、連江縣加一市全區都是都市計畫他就先做吧其他的我們就慢慢再討論每一個北南都有分別東西都有分別所以我覺得這個都要兼顧否則你的國土計畫法當中我也很認同這五項這五項裡面我非常非常的認同但是你沒有這個國土的強行通過之後沒有一項你能夠達到的"},{"start":1035.462,"end":1049.171,"text":"國土資源你要因應氣候邊界你要兼顧國土保安你要城鄉發展你要國土永續發展糧食安全全部沒有一項達到那你推什麼國土計畫法這是我高雄市整個原高雄縣原高雄市所有的農民農會我現在講的就是我270萬人民270萬270幾萬人口的高雄市農民的心聲謝謝以上好 謝謝"},{"start":1063.586,"end":1063.626,"text":"林岱樺委員"}]}},{"id":"16203","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16203","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6855998180c4b1e7cf47931ae751f1d07216059d4d42a7fce219bce6836c4e2e2c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T08:31:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:40:00+08:00","duration":22093,"影片長度":"06:08:13","委員發言時間":"08:31:47 - 14:40:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":284.57721875000004,"end":285.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":285.25221875,"end":286.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":1573.1184687500001,"end":1574.3165937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1704.7940937500002,"end":1707.2072187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1711.9490937500002,"end":1712.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1712.8265937500003,"end":1715.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1726.20846875,"end":1727.7440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1728.0140937500003,"end":1728.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1728.0815937500001,"end":1728.1659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1728.1659687500003,"end":1731.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1733.6334687500002,"end":1735.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1735.9453437500001,"end":1761.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1762.8103437500001,"end":1766.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1766.9278437500002,"end":1779.7359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1780.36034375,"end":1782.9759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1783.2459687500002,"end":1789.5572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1790.08034375,"end":1792.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1793.6240937500002,"end":1796.8978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1797.7415937500002,"end":1797.8597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1798.1803437500002,"end":1799.8509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1799.9690937500002,"end":1800.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1800.34034375,"end":1800.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":1805.3690937500003,"end":1805.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1805.38596875,"end":1805.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":1805.4365937500002,"end":1805.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1805.7740937500002,"end":1805.7909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":1809.60471875,"end":1812.9628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1844.8228437500002,"end":1845.2784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1846.2403437500002,"end":1852.0115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1853.1253437500002,"end":1853.8509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1854.1378437500002,"end":1854.6947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1855.4203437500003,"end":1856.2303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1857.0909687500002,"end":1858.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1861.0059687500002,"end":1877.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1878.0665937500003,"end":1881.0197187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1881.4247187500002,"end":1932.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1932.80909375,"end":1933.5853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1933.8384687500002,"end":1934.1590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1935.2222187500001,"end":1935.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1935.8128437500002,"end":1936.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1936.3528437500001,"end":1938.3440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1938.5128437500002,"end":1938.5297187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1938.5297187500003,"end":1938.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1938.5972187500001,"end":1938.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1938.5972187500001,"end":1938.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1938.6647187500002,"end":1938.6815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1938.6815937500003,"end":1938.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1938.6815937500003,"end":1938.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1938.69846875,"end":1938.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1938.71534375,"end":1938.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1938.71534375,"end":1938.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1938.7322187500001,"end":1938.8334687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1938.8334687500003,"end":1939.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1938.8334687500003,"end":1941.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1942.36034375,"end":1949.7347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1948.26659375,"end":1949.1778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1949.1947187500002,"end":1972.2797187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1972.9378437500002,"end":1986.9103437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1989.62721875,"end":1990.8422187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1992.3103437500001,"end":1993.3565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2003.4647187500002,"end":2009.8265937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2009.87721875,"end":2021.3690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2021.68971875,"end":2035.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2035.3753437500002,"end":2043.2728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2043.2897187500002,"end":2043.4078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2043.4584687500003,"end":2050.0059687499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2050.56284375,"end":2056.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2057.1103437500005,"end":2061.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2061.6328437500006,"end":2061.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2062.12221875,"end":2071.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2071.77471875,"end":2085.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2085.76409375,"end":2089.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2090.3203437500006,"end":2102.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2103.34784375,"end":2113.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2114.45159375,"end":2131.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2133.0984687500004,"end":2143.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2143.2740937500002,"end":2152.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2152.70721875,"end":2156.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2157.36471875,"end":2162.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2163.1865937500006,"end":2164.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2171.21909375,"end":2178.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2178.88034375,"end":2218.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2218.82346875,"end":2228.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2229.18471875,"end":2229.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2229.8934687500005,"end":2247.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2247.64596875,"end":2299.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":2299.48596875,"end":2310.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2315.43284375,"end":2318.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2326.28346875,"end":2345.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2345.92596875,"end":2368.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2369.01096875,"end":2376.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2376.6553437500006,"end":2393.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2393.90159375,"end":2397.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2397.4959687500004,"end":2397.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2397.69846875,"end":2398.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2399.28471875,"end":2399.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2400.2128437500005,"end":2409.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2409.4265937500004,"end":2418.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2418.1003437500003,"end":2422.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2423.4159687500005,"end":2423.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2423.43284375,"end":2424.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2424.76596875,"end":2427.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2429.03534375,"end":2433.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2437.3378437500005,"end":2514.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2517.6122187500005,"end":2543.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2544.4940937500005,"end":2571.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2572.5234687500006,"end":2650.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2650.6715937500003,"end":2652.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2653.01721875,"end":2736.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2736.8690937500005,"end":2877.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2880.32346875,"end":2881.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2881.9940937500005,"end":2889.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2890.58346875,"end":2896.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2897.14784375,"end":2909.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2910.2597187500005,"end":2918.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2919.33846875,"end":2920.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2924.63721875,"end":2927.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2929.4972187500007,"end":2930.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2932.0622187500003,"end":2932.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2936.14596875,"end":2939.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2940.5840937500006,"end":2943.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2945.8659687500003,"end":2950.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2951.31659375,"end":2952.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2952.76784375,"end":2953.9490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2955.6872187500003,"end":2956.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2958.38721875,"end":2959.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2961.0703437500006,"end":2962.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2962.79159375,"end":2965.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2968.32659375,"end":2969.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2970.4190937500007,"end":2974.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2974.89096875,"end":2975.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2976.27471875,"end":2977.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2977.97909375,"end":2980.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2981.57346875,"end":2982.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2983.44659375,"end":2991.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2992.8122187500003,"end":2997.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2998.9040937500004,"end":3001.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3003.57846875,"end":3006.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3008.3034687500003,"end":3010.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3013.33221875,"end":3015.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3015.9815937500007,"end":3016.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3018.34409375,"end":3021.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3023.5078437500006,"end":3025.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3026.2078437500004,"end":3027.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3030.15659375,"end":3032.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3032.2322187500004,"end":3033.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3035.87721875,"end":3036.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3037.0753437500007,"end":3038.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3041.31096875,"end":3044.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3047.52096875,"end":3050.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3052.70159375,"end":3056.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3058.4053437500006,"end":3061.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3064.0753437500007,"end":3066.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3068.4628437500005,"end":3070.8253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3071.92221875,"end":3072.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3073.96409375,"end":3076.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3077.8622187500005,"end":3078.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3079.4315937500005,"end":3082.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3083.92034375,"end":3084.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3085.35471875,"end":3089.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3091.51409375,"end":3096.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3099.39471875,"end":3101.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3101.4197187500004,"end":3102.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3104.9128437500003,"end":3107.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3107.9840937500003,"end":3109.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3112.97909375,"end":3115.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3117.01221875,"end":3117.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3118.4297187500006,"end":3123.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3126.1415937500005,"end":3129.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3131.76096875,"end":3134.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3137.31284375,"end":3138.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3139.35471875,"end":3142.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3145.2947187500004,"end":3148.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3148.7372187500005,"end":3149.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3150.20534375,"end":3150.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3150.9647187500004,"end":3151.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3153.2597187500005,"end":3156.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3157.4784687500005,"end":3157.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3158.6765937500004,"end":3159.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3159.9590937500006,"end":3162.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3164.2284687500005,"end":3167.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3167.94096875,"end":3169.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3170.3203437500006,"end":3173.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3174.79221875,"end":3175.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3176.54721875,"end":3179.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3180.9853437500005,"end":3181.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3182.03159375,"end":3182.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3184.39409375,"end":3185.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3188.5790937500005,"end":3195.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3198.0290937500004,"end":3198.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3198.92346875,"end":3201.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3202.11284375,"end":3202.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3205.0828437500004,"end":3210.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3212.0353437500007,"end":3212.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3213.6553437500006,"end":3216.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3217.89096875,"end":3219.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3220.8947187500007,"end":3226.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3226.68284375,"end":3227.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3237.17909375,"end":3365.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3366.4753437500003,"end":3391.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3392.66534375,"end":3396.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3397.12034375,"end":3421.8253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3422.1628437500003,"end":3449.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3451.8797187500004,"end":3473.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3474.2390937500004,"end":3496.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3496.81784375,"end":3497.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3499.0284687500007,"end":3559.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3559.62659375,"end":3560.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3562.0397187500002,"end":3572.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3573.0759687500004,"end":3594.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3594.74346875,"end":3599.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3599.8565937500007,"end":3645.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3646.27971875,"end":3680.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3682.1559687500003,"end":3683.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3684.4509687500004,"end":3686.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3687.25221875,"end":3690.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3696.78659375,"end":3700.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3700.63409375,"end":3701.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3701.4440937500003,"end":3716.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3717.22221875,"end":3720.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3720.58034375,"end":3724.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":3724.86659375,"end":3725.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3725.1872187500003,"end":3725.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3726.55409375,"end":3728.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3728.96721875,"end":3732.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3733.1015937500006,"end":3734.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3735.12659375,"end":3736.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3737.35409375,"end":3737.9953437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3738.4678437500006,"end":3743.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3744.3572187500004,"end":3745.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3745.6397187500006,"end":3748.9640937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3749.28471875,"end":3759.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3760.25346875,"end":3766.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3767.3747187500003,"end":3770.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3771.0028437500005,"end":3771.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3771.94784375,"end":3789.0422187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3789.0759687500004,"end":3795.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3795.8934687500005,"end":3797.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3798.40784375,"end":3800.0109687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3800.4665937500004,"end":3805.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3806.0353437500007,"end":3806.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3806.96346875,"end":3815.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3815.7215937500005,"end":3820.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3821.05409375,"end":3825.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3827.0615937500006,"end":3828.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3829.06971875,"end":3856.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3856.30596875,"end":3880.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3881.14596875,"end":3904.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3905.2772187500004,"end":3912.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3912.48284375,"end":3922.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3923.1984687500008,"end":3938.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3938.7403437500006,"end":3942.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3942.7228437500007,"end":3953.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3958.0622187500003,"end":3971.4103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3971.7140937500008,"end":3975.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3976.65846875,"end":3982.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3983.5097187500005,"end":3995.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3995.3390937500008,"end":3998.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4002.5109687500008,"end":4007.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4007.9615937500002,"end":4009.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4012.04534375,"end":4057.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4057.86096875,"end":4058.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4058.0128437500007,"end":4058.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4058.1815937500005,"end":4068.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4068.5428437500004,"end":4071.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4071.6647187500002,"end":4081.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4081.2665937500005,"end":4122.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4122.981593750001,"end":4123.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4124.061593750001,"end":4141.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4141.679093750001,"end":4152.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4149.72846875,"end":4149.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4150.639718750001,"end":4181.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4155.128468749999,"end":4155.550343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4162.671593749999,"end":4163.144093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4167.29534375,"end":4167.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4181.757218750001,"end":4182.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4183.32659375,"end":4205.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4187.35971875,"end":4187.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4205.63534375,"end":4237.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4237.967843750001,"end":4238.237843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4239.267218749999,"end":4239.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4239.2840937500005,"end":4248.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4247.4853437500005,"end":4247.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4248.885968750001,"end":4270.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4249.05471875,"end":4250.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4269.929093750001,"end":4295.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4280.374718749999,"end":4280.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4295.5790937500005,"end":4307.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4307.45909375,"end":4307.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4307.948468750001,"end":4317.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4308.15096875,"end":4308.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4317.16221875,"end":4336.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4321.19534375,"end":4322.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4333.09221875,"end":4340.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4340.702843749999,"end":4383.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4345.51221875,"end":4345.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4346.237843749999,"end":4346.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4372.495343750001,"end":4373.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4383.71721875,"end":4384.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4384.32471875,"end":4437.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4418.749718749999,"end":4419.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4419.357218749999,"end":4419.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4424.1834687499995,"end":4424.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4427.72721875,"end":4428.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4433.481593750001,"end":4434.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4434.05534375,"end":4434.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4434.1903437500005,"end":4435.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4436.232218749999,"end":4436.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4437.02534375,"end":4442.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4452.128468749999,"end":4465.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4462.1522187499995,"end":4462.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4462.169093750001,"end":4462.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4462.439093749999,"end":4462.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4462.4559687500005,"end":4462.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4462.489718750001,"end":4462.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4462.827218750001,"end":4462.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4462.84409375,"end":4463.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4465.864718750001,"end":4466.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4466.185343749999,"end":4469.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4470.1678437499995,"end":4472.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4472.78346875,"end":4475.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4475.92221875,"end":4476.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4482.132218750001,"end":4491.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4491.43034375,"end":4498.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4498.4334687499995,"end":4499.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4500.49221875,"end":4501.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4501.31909375,"end":4508.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4508.659718749999,"end":4512.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4512.38909375,"end":4584.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4584.411593750001,"end":4587.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4588.03971875,"end":4592.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4592.96721875,"end":4600.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4600.122218750001,"end":4609.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4609.622843749999,"end":4613.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4614.044093750001,"end":4630.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4630.682843750001,"end":4658.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4659.20159375,"end":4661.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4661.294093750001,"end":4662.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4663.42034375,"end":4666.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4667.6728437500005,"end":4670.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4670.35596875,"end":4676.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4673.714093750001,"end":4673.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4676.852843750001,"end":4685.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4681.66221875,"end":4682.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4685.3915937500005,"end":4686.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4685.49284375,"end":4686.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4686.11721875,"end":4686.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4686.218468749999,"end":4686.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4687.0790937500005,"end":4690.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4690.774718750001,"end":4694.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4694.622218750001,"end":4698.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4698.975968750001,"end":4702.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4703.12721875,"end":4716.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4716.91409375,"end":4716.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4717.589093750001,"end":4718.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4718.6522187499995,"end":4730.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4731.34221875,"end":4732.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4733.21534375,"end":4786.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4786.962218750001,"end":4819.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4819.46346875,"end":4827.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4828.069718750001,"end":4844.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4845.75471875,"end":4846.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4846.59846875,"end":4852.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4853.16284375,"end":4854.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4855.4072187500005,"end":4894.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4861.954718749999,"end":4863.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4866.02159375,"end":4866.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4894.47284375,"end":4902.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4902.6572187500005,"end":4920.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4920.932843750001,"end":4920.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4920.983468750001,"end":4927.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4927.682843750001,"end":4928.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4928.49284375,"end":4944.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4945.6884687500005,"end":4947.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4947.76409375,"end":4947.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4947.81471875,"end":4960.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4961.331593750001,"end":4988.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4967.372843749999,"end":4967.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4967.40659375,"end":4967.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4988.97284375,"end":5016.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":5016.732218749999,"end":5016.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":5017.10346875,"end":5033.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5031.075968749999,"end":5031.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5033.995343750001,"end":5034.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":5034.01221875,"end":5034.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":5034.839093750001,"end":5034.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5034.974093750001,"end":5035.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":5035.24409375,"end":5035.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5035.37909375,"end":5035.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5036.54346875,"end":5038.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5038.38284375,"end":5038.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5038.55159375,"end":5063.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5063.88096875,"end":5066.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5066.800343750001,"end":5083.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5083.810343749999,"end":5099.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5099.55471875,"end":5107.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5108.0428437499995,"end":5108.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5108.7684687500005,"end":5110.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5109.1903437500005,"end":5109.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5110.675343750001,"end":5110.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5111.36721875,"end":5122.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5122.36971875,"end":5134.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5133.67596875,"end":5134.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5134.23284375,"end":5159.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5141.26971875,"end":5142.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5147.49659375,"end":5147.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5147.564093749999,"end":5147.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5147.59784375,"end":5147.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5147.665343750001,"end":5147.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5147.6990937499995,"end":5147.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5147.7665937500005,"end":5147.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5147.96909375,"end":5147.985968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5159.663468750001,"end":5164.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5164.354718750001,"end":5164.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5164.65846875,"end":5165.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5165.97471875,"end":5175.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5175.91409375,"end":5178.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5178.462218750001,"end":5187.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5179.52534375,"end":5179.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5179.542218750001,"end":5180.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5187.33846875,"end":5193.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5193.936593750001,"end":5215.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5215.70534375,"end":5221.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5221.544093750001,"end":5227.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5228.378468750001,"end":5237.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5237.03534375,"end":5244.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5244.15659375,"end":5245.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5246.198468750001,"end":5256.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5256.52596875,"end":5261.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5261.97659375,"end":5264.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5264.72721875,"end":5286.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5278.27784375,"end":5278.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5278.64909375,"end":5278.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5284.47096875,"end":5289.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5289.24659375,"end":5303.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5303.74221875,"end":5315.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5315.95971875,"end":5316.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5317.14096875,"end":5318.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5319.419093750001,"end":5326.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5326.9959687499995,"end":5340.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5348.35971875,"end":5356.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5356.341593749999,"end":5359.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5362.062218749999,"end":5362.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5362.112843750001,"end":5362.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5362.80471875,"end":5363.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5364.357218749999,"end":5368.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5368.93034375,"end":5370.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5370.82034375,"end":5374.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5375.0897187499995,"end":5380.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5381.50221875,"end":5390.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5390.952218750001,"end":5393.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5394.39471875,"end":5400.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5400.19971875,"end":5403.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5404.04721875,"end":5405.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5406.15659375,"end":5408.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5408.468468749999,"end":5410.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5411.4384687500005,"end":5412.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5413.41284375,"end":5418.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5419.8084687499995,"end":5423.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5423.9090937500005,"end":5424.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5425.22534375,"end":5426.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5426.895968750001,"end":5428.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5429.376593749999,"end":5429.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5430.3553437499995,"end":5435.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5435.333468750001,"end":5436.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5437.03784375,"end":5443.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5443.7372187500005,"end":5445.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5445.71159375,"end":5447.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5447.87159375,"end":5449.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5450.13284375,"end":5450.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5450.72346875,"end":5457.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5459.22846875,"end":5462.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5463.7509687500005,"end":5464.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5465.522843750001,"end":5466.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5468.03721875,"end":5469.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5470.33221875,"end":5472.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5473.89284375,"end":5475.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5476.18784375,"end":5477.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5477.77409375,"end":5481.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5481.925343750001,"end":5483.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5485.435343749999,"end":5488.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5489.87346875,"end":5492.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5493.2822187500005,"end":5494.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5494.51409375,"end":5496.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5496.67409375,"end":5496.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5498.04096875,"end":5498.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5500.79159375,"end":5505.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5505.53346875,"end":5510.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5511.54096875,"end":5512.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5513.380343750001,"end":5517.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5518.577843749999,"end":5520.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5520.9403437500005,"end":5523.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5522.93159375,"end":5526.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5527.116593750001,"end":5531.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5531.571593750001,"end":5535.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5537.190968750001,"end":5537.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5538.57471875,"end":5539.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5540.751593749999,"end":5541.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5542.1522187499995,"end":5544.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5545.79721875,"end":5549.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5549.64471875,"end":5551.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5551.4334687499995,"end":5553.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5554.47096875,"end":5556.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5557.356593750001,"end":5560.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5560.815968750001,"end":5562.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5564.54534375,"end":5566.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5566.350968750001,"end":5568.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5568.42659375,"end":5569.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5570.78909375,"end":5572.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5573.21909375,"end":5575.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5576.49284375,"end":5577.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5577.15096875,"end":5580.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5581.42034375,"end":5582.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5582.905343750001,"end":5585.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5587.24221875,"end":5592.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5593.04721875,"end":5594.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5595.10596875,"end":5602.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5602.85159375,"end":5605.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5606.614718750001,"end":5611.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5611.575968749999,"end":5614.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5615.25471875,"end":5616.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5617.33034375,"end":5620.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5620.637843750001,"end":5624.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5624.50221875,"end":5625.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5626.9490937499995,"end":5629.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5630.138468749999,"end":5631.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5631.57284375,"end":5634.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5635.4540937500005,"end":5637.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5637.68159375,"end":5640.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5641.05659375,"end":5642.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5643.419093750001,"end":5644.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5645.83221875,"end":5647.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5648.295968750001,"end":5649.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5651.45159375,"end":5652.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5653.08846875,"end":5653.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5655.99096875,"end":5658.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5658.48846875,"end":5660.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5661.036593750001,"end":5663.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5664.25971875,"end":5667.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5668.14096875,"end":5669.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5669.69346875,"end":5670.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5672.5115937499995,"end":5673.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5674.030343750001,"end":5677.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5677.540343750001,"end":5679.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5681.573468750001,"end":5687.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5687.78346875,"end":5690.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5690.82096875,"end":5695.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5695.74846875,"end":5696.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5696.4403437500005,"end":5699.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5700.06846875,"end":5701.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5702.54909375,"end":5705.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5705.384093750001,"end":5705.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5706.61596875,"end":5708.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5708.55659375,"end":5713.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5713.163468750001,"end":5713.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5713.7372187500005,"end":5729.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5729.97096875,"end":5735.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5735.11784375,"end":5736.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5735.64096875,"end":5736.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5736.38346875,"end":5738.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5738.50971875,"end":5740.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5740.65284375,"end":5742.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5742.47534375,"end":5742.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5743.200968749999,"end":5745.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5746.47471875,"end":5746.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5746.94721875,"end":5747.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5748.314093749999,"end":5749.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5750.339093750001,"end":5751.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5751.452843749999,"end":5751.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5751.77346875,"end":5752.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5753.07284375,"end":5756.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5757.359093749999,"end":5760.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5760.227843750001,"end":5760.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5760.919718749999,"end":5761.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5762.708468750001,"end":5763.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5763.552218750001,"end":5769.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5769.89721875,"end":5770.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5770.859093749999,"end":5774.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5774.470343749999,"end":5774.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5775.128468750001,"end":5775.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5776.022843750001,"end":5777.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5777.524718750001,"end":5779.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5780.325968749999,"end":5782.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5782.6884687500005,"end":5782.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5782.80659375,"end":5786.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5786.620343750001,"end":5830.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5830.27596875,"end":5830.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5830.61346875,"end":5831.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5832.419093750001,"end":5834.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5834.376593750001,"end":5835.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5836.452218750001,"end":5843.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5843.97846875,"end":5844.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5844.467843750001,"end":5847.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5848.12971875,"end":5850.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5851.23471875,"end":5855.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5854.154093749999,"end":5854.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5855.2509687500005,"end":5856.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5855.77409375,"end":5856.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5856.58409375,"end":5856.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5856.63471875,"end":5857.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5857.343468749999,"end":5858.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5860.060343749999,"end":5862.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5862.794093750001,"end":5863.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5863.55346875,"end":5865.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5863.60409375,"end":5863.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5865.57846875,"end":5865.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5865.966593749999,"end":5867.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5868.075968749999,"end":5869.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5869.915343750001,"end":5870.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5871.6365937499995,"end":5872.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5873.3240937499995,"end":5876.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5876.2772187499995,"end":5876.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5878.724093750001,"end":5880.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5881.03596875,"end":5882.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5883.24659375,"end":5883.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5884.00596875,"end":5885.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5886.182843750001,"end":5886.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5887.7353437500005,"end":5888.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5889.72659375,"end":5891.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5892.122843749999,"end":5893.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5893.2197187500005,"end":5894.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5894.940968750001,"end":5895.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5897.4384687500005,"end":5897.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5898.737843750001,"end":5899.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5900.40846875,"end":5901.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5902.28159375,"end":5903.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5903.31096875,"end":5903.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5905.302218750001,"end":5915.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5916.6590937500005,"end":5925.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5926.395968750001,"end":5930.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5931.07034375,"end":5932.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5933.39909375,"end":5934.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5935.677218750001,"end":5936.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5936.92596875,"end":5937.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5938.529093749999,"end":5939.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5940.267218750001,"end":5942.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5942.27534375,"end":5942.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5945.5322187500005,"end":5948.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5950.442843750001,"end":5952.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5952.56909375,"end":5958.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5958.72846875,"end":5958.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5959.42034375,"end":5961.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5962.18784375,"end":5963.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5964.314093750001,"end":5966.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5966.5584687499995,"end":5977.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5977.155968749999,"end":5981.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5981.91471875,"end":5985.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5985.981593750001,"end":5987.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5987.753468750001,"end":5988.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5988.68159375,"end":5989.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5990.72346875,"end":5992.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5992.7147187499995,"end":5993.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5993.54159375,"end":5997.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5999.44784375,"end":6002.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6002.805968750001,"end":6004.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6006.501593750001,"end":6007.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6007.952843749999,"end":6008.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6009.72471875,"end":6012.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6013.57221875,"end":6015.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6017.03159375,"end":6019.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6019.259093750001,"end":6020.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6020.710343750001,"end":6021.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6022.397843750001,"end":6023.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6023.64659375,"end":6026.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6027.3084687499995,"end":6029.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6030.80159375,"end":6031.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6031.544093750001,"end":6032.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6033.079718750001,"end":6035.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6035.290343750001,"end":6035.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6035.712218750001,"end":6035.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6036.269093750001,"end":6044.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6042.1415937500005,"end":6042.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6042.225968750001,"end":6042.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6042.462218750001,"end":6042.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6044.36909375,"end":6044.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6044.77409375,"end":6046.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6047.0184687500005,"end":6048.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6049.04346875,"end":6050.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6051.11909375,"end":6053.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6053.852843750001,"end":6053.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6053.937218749999,"end":6054.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6054.122843749999,"end":6054.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6054.139718750001,"end":6054.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6054.20721875,"end":6054.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6054.6122187500005,"end":6056.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6056.40096875,"end":6060.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6060.85596875,"end":6063.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6072.38159375,"end":6079.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6086.32034375,"end":6087.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6088.46346875,"end":6089.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6089.96534375,"end":6095.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6096.225968750001,"end":6182.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6183.503468750001,"end":6214.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6214.907843750001,"end":6229.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6230.34846875,"end":6252.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6252.4715937500005,"end":6259.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6259.03596875,"end":6259.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6259.862843750001,"end":6260.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6260.436593750001,"end":6260.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6260.45346875,"end":6271.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6271.8778437500005,"end":6282.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6283.538468750001,"end":6344.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6344.91284375,"end":6393.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6363.07034375,"end":6363.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6363.458468750001,"end":6363.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6392.6522187499995,"end":6439.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6398.27159375,"end":6399.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6399.739718750001,"end":6399.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6400.026593750001,"end":6400.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6400.36409375,"end":6400.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":6402.57471875,"end":6403.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6403.97534375,"end":6404.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6404.0428437499995,"end":6404.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6419.2978437500005,"end":6419.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6429.49034375,"end":6429.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6439.024718750001,"end":6457.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6447.1415937500005,"end":6447.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6447.698468750001,"end":6447.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6448.626593750001,"end":6448.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6448.6434687500005,"end":6448.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6448.997843749999,"end":6449.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6457.637843750001,"end":6465.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6466.311593750001,"end":6470.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6471.30659375,"end":6472.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6472.50471875,"end":6538.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6496.55159375,"end":6496.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6538.215968750001,"end":6573.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6542.198468750001,"end":6542.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6574.817843750001,"end":6575.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6576.5897187499995,"end":6581.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6579.795968750001,"end":6580.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6581.1122187500005,"end":6583.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6582.4959687499995,"end":6584.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6583.626593750001,"end":6584.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6584.706593750001,"end":6589.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6589.769093750001,"end":6589.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6589.85346875,"end":6599.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6589.870343750001,"end":6590.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6596.4853437500005,"end":6597.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6597.413468750001,"end":6598.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6599.55659375,"end":6604.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6599.64096875,"end":6600.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6600.029093749999,"end":6602.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6604.028468750001,"end":6605.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6604.65284375,"end":6605.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6605.59784375,"end":6616.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6616.904093749999,"end":6619.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6620.16096875,"end":6621.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6620.700968749999,"end":6636.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6636.63096875,"end":6639.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6640.83284375,"end":6653.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6656.59409375,"end":6658.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6664.18784375,"end":6664.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6665.014718750001,"end":6665.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6665.6053437499995,"end":6665.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6666.4490937499995,"end":6668.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6669.67221875,"end":6670.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6671.190968750001,"end":6672.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6672.743468750001,"end":6674.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6675.00471875,"end":6677.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6676.590968750001,"end":6679.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6678.44721875,"end":6678.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6679.89846875,"end":6682.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6685.770968750001,"end":6686.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6686.1590937500005,"end":6690.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6690.934718750001,"end":6691.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6691.4072187500005,"end":6698.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6691.45784375,"end":6692.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6692.520968750001,"end":6692.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6694.259093750001,"end":6694.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6698.798468750001,"end":6699.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6699.220343750001,"end":6710.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6710.374718749999,"end":6712.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6713.985968750001,"end":6714.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6714.94784375,"end":6715.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6715.724093750001,"end":6716.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6716.17971875,"end":6722.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6723.48659375,"end":6732.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6733.51034375,"end":6744.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6737.25659375,"end":6737.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6738.80909375,"end":6738.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6739.09596875,"end":6740.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6740.192843750001,"end":6740.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6745.019093750001,"end":6745.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6745.87971875,"end":6746.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6747.43221875,"end":6758.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6759.02534375,"end":6761.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6760.679093750001,"end":6761.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6761.91096875,"end":6769.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6770.78721875,"end":6780.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6776.49096875,"end":6776.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6780.456593750001,"end":6780.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6782.751593750001,"end":6790.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6792.48846875,"end":6793.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6793.65284375,"end":6796.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6797.247218750001,"end":6798.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6798.86721875,"end":6799.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6798.9178437499995,"end":6800.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6800.2509687500005,"end":6804.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6804.975968750001,"end":6806.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6807.6590937500005,"end":6814.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6814.155968749999,"end":6817.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6818.45909375,"end":6829.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6830.237843750001,"end":6831.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6831.53721875,"end":6840.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6837.57846875,"end":6841.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6840.58221875,"end":6843.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6843.2147187499995,"end":6845.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6844.14284375,"end":6849.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6848.800343750001,"end":6863.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6864.139718750001,"end":6883.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6877.825343750001,"end":6878.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6883.90034375,"end":6887.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6888.3553437499995,"end":6891.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6892.32096875,"end":6897.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6897.839093750001,"end":6899.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6901.56846875,"end":6908.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6908.82471875,"end":6911.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6911.659718750001,"end":6912.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6912.30096875,"end":6920.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6916.249718750001,"end":6916.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6920.53596875,"end":6920.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6921.21096875,"end":6924.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6924.75471875,"end":6925.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6926.2059687500005,"end":6932.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6932.92221875,"end":6933.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6933.68159375,"end":6935.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6934.10346875,"end":6934.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6936.29721875,"end":6944.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6941.747843749999,"end":6941.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6941.78159375,"end":6942.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6942.085343750001,"end":6942.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6943.013468749999,"end":6943.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6943.23284375,"end":6943.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6946.017218750001,"end":6946.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6946.675343750001,"end":6948.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6948.48096875,"end":6967.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6968.49471875,"end":6987.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6987.71534375,"end":6999.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6999.932843750001,"end":7009.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7010.192843750001,"end":7011.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7011.71159375,"end":7015.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7016.419718749999,"end":7026.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7026.6122187500005,"end":7031.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7031.35409375,"end":7035.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7035.4715937500005,"end":7042.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7042.71096875,"end":7045.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7046.288468750001,"end":7055.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7055.40096875,"end":7075.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7076.241593750001,"end":7091.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7091.327843750001,"end":7095.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7095.90096875,"end":7102.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7103.62971875,"end":7108.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7108.13534375,"end":7111.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7111.71284375,"end":7116.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7117.65284375,"end":7122.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7122.782843750001,"end":7132.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7132.874093750001,"end":7152.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7152.98909375,"end":7187.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7187.852843750001,"end":7201.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7202.247218750001,"end":7213.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7213.84034375,"end":7214.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7214.565968750001,"end":7222.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7223.30721875,"end":7230.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7230.225968750001,"end":7232.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7232.858468750001,"end":7234.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7234.88346875,"end":7237.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7238.292218750001,"end":7245.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7246.020968750001,"end":7257.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7257.63096875,"end":7264.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7264.954718750001,"end":7282.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7282.57221875,"end":7287.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7287.499718750001,"end":7299.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7300.1053437499995,"end":7303.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7303.83471875,"end":7314.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7315.5965937500005,"end":7322.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7322.9540937500005,"end":7323.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7324.388468749999,"end":7329.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7329.467843750001,"end":7333.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7333.83846875,"end":7338.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7339.2215937500005,"end":7375.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7341.263468749999,"end":7341.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7355.45534375,"end":7355.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7356.40034375,"end":7359.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7372.448468750001,"end":7376.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7375.857218749999,"end":7375.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7376.700968749999,"end":7377.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7376.9540937500005,"end":7388.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7377.139718750001,"end":7377.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7377.983468750001,"end":7378.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7389.23909375,"end":7397.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7397.25471875,"end":7399.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7397.8622187500005,"end":7407.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7403.86971875,"end":7404.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7405.8778437500005,"end":7409.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7408.74659375,"end":7416.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7414.88909375,"end":7427.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7427.83221875,"end":7428.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7428.2372187500005,"end":7428.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7428.642218750001,"end":7428.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7429.73909375,"end":7431.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7431.71346875,"end":7432.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7432.962218750001,"end":7435.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7444.0322187500005,"end":7446.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7449.66846875,"end":7450.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7451.17034375,"end":7451.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7452.09846875,"end":7487.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7488.05909375,"end":7500.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7491.9403437500005,"end":7491.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7500.44534375,"end":7516.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7503.314093750001,"end":7503.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7516.64534375,"end":7518.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7518.315968750001,"end":7523.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7518.7040937500005,"end":7520.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7522.8553437499995,"end":7532.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7530.735968750001,"end":7533.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7534.46534375,"end":7534.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7534.56659375,"end":7535.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7535.663468750001,"end":7536.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7535.68034375,"end":7536.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7536.25409375,"end":7536.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7536.8447187500005,"end":7539.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7538.58284375,"end":7544.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7541.198468750001,"end":7542.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7543.493468750001,"end":7544.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7544.2528437500005,"end":7545.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7545.029093749999,"end":7545.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7545.450968749999,"end":7546.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7546.88534375,"end":7547.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7547.003468750001,"end":7547.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7547.03721875,"end":7557.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7552.55534375,"end":7552.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7557.61784375,"end":7559.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7561.22909375,"end":7581.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7581.968468750001,"end":7583.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7583.385968750001,"end":7583.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7583.470343750001,"end":7583.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7584.82034375,"end":7589.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7587.503468750001,"end":7593.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7590.54096875,"end":7591.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7591.114718750001,"end":7591.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7592.515343750001,"end":7592.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7592.97096875,"end":7593.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7593.07221875,"end":7593.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7593.139718750001,"end":7604.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7605.272843750001,"end":7609.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7609.255343750001,"end":7609.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7609.27221875,"end":7620.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7617.169718749999,"end":7617.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7619.144093750001,"end":7619.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7620.89909375,"end":7621.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7621.304093750001,"end":7621.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7621.6415937500005,"end":7625.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7623.85221875,"end":7624.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7626.265343750001,"end":7626.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7626.2822187500005,"end":7640.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7637.655968750001,"end":7639.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7640.153468750001,"end":7648.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7643.49471875,"end":7643.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7649.16471875,"end":7694.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7694.474093750001,"end":7712.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7713.66096875,"end":7713.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7713.694718750001,"end":7714.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7714.200968749999,"end":7714.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7714.589093750001,"end":7714.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7714.673468750001,"end":7714.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7714.724093750001,"end":7741.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7725.169718749999,"end":7725.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7725.2372187500005,"end":7725.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7725.507218750001,"end":7725.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7733.387843750001,"end":7733.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7741.2684687500005,"end":7748.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7743.732218749999,"end":7746.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7746.314093750001,"end":7759.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7748.03534375,"end":7748.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7759.93221875,"end":7766.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7766.78346875,"end":7786.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7783.55721875,"end":7784.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7785.37971875,"end":7785.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7786.358468750001,"end":7792.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7787.72534375,"end":7787.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7792.720343750001,"end":7801.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7801.42784375,"end":7807.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7801.61346875,"end":7801.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7801.84971875,"end":7801.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7801.967843750001,"end":7802.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7802.11971875,"end":7802.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7802.474093750001,"end":7802.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7808.093468750001,"end":7811.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7808.144093750001,"end":7808.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7810.304093750001,"end":7811.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7811.232218749999,"end":7813.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7813.307843750001,"end":7834.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7835.65034375,"end":7842.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7843.311593750001,"end":7843.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7844.847218750001,"end":7851.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7852.00221875,"end":7870.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7856.67659375,"end":7856.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7867.341593749999,"end":7867.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7870.632218750001,"end":7871.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7871.577218750001,"end":7875.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7875.94784375,"end":7877.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7876.302218750001,"end":7880.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7877.905343750001,"end":7884.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7885.04346875,"end":7893.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7889.093468750001,"end":7889.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7894.79721875,"end":7922.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7908.58409375,"end":7909.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7910.4403437500005,"end":7912.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7922.97846875,"end":7923.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7923.19784375,"end":7923.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7923.2147187499995,"end":7923.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7923.923468750001,"end":7923.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7923.9403437500005,"end":7923.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7925.661593750001,"end":7928.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8381.70846875,"end":8382.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8603.05784375,"end":8609.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8619.93284375,"end":8623.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8624.809718750003,"end":8626.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8626.969718750002,"end":8628.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8630.648468750001,"end":8631.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8633.06159375,"end":8633.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8634.37784375,"end":8635.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8635.862843750001,"end":8637.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8639.76096875,"end":8642.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8648.14784375,"end":8648.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8649.19409375,"end":8660.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8660.90534375,"end":8661.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8661.023468750001,"end":8772.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8772.90471875,"end":8773.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8774.84534375,"end":8848.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8849.129093750002,"end":8863.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8864.08034375,"end":8864.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8864.50221875,"end":8867.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8868.737843750001,"end":8871.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8869.227218750002,"end":8872.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8872.922843750002,"end":8873.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8873.344718750002,"end":8877.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8878.086593750002,"end":8879.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8879.571593750003,"end":8881.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8881.96784375,"end":8893.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8893.81409375,"end":8893.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8893.88159375,"end":8893.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8894.60721875,"end":8902.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8902.63971875,"end":8911.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8911.54971875,"end":8915.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8915.80221875,"end":8917.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8918.097218750001,"end":8931.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8932.356593750003,"end":8935.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8936.27159375,"end":8938.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8938.81971875,"end":8939.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8940.33846875,"end":8941.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8941.48596875,"end":8945.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8946.649718750003,"end":8959.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8959.930343750002,"end":8960.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8960.723468750002,"end":8960.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8960.976593750001,"end":8967.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8967.96284375,"end":8969.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8969.65034375,"end":8970.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8971.371593750002,"end":8972.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8972.02971875,"end":8972.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8972.13096875,"end":8972.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8972.164718750002,"end":8972.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8972.19846875,"end":8972.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8972.40096875,"end":8972.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8972.485343750002,"end":8973.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8973.19409375,"end":8973.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8973.86909375,"end":8974.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8974.004093750002,"end":8974.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8974.03784375,"end":8974.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8974.105343750001,"end":8974.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8974.577843750001,"end":8974.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8975.472218750001,"end":8977.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8976.383468750002,"end":8977.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8977.969718750002,"end":8979.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8978.290343750003,"end":8978.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8979.977843750003,"end":8980.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8980.028468750003,"end":8980.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8981.10846875,"end":8981.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8981.14221875,"end":8981.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8983.184093750002,"end":8984.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8984.93909375,"end":8985.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8985.32721875,"end":8985.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8985.344093750002,"end":8985.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8986.035968750002,"end":8987.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8987.622218750003,"end":8988.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8988.90471875,"end":9001.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9001.66221875,"end":9009.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9009.812843750002,"end":9021.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9022.688468750002,"end":9027.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9028.206593750001,"end":9083.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9086.222843750002,"end":9087.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9088.51784375,"end":9089.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9088.58534375,"end":9089.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9090.289718750002,"end":9092.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9092.922218750002,"end":9093.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9093.64784375,"end":9093.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9094.57596875,"end":9138.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9139.109093750001,"end":9181.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9181.43159375,"end":9184.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9185.363468750002,"end":9193.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9193.76721875,"end":9215.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9216.734093750001,"end":9227.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9225.812843750002,"end":9227.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9227.702843750001,"end":9227.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9227.719718750002,"end":9227.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9227.753468750001,"end":9227.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9227.770343750002,"end":9227.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9227.95596875,"end":9228.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9228.00659375,"end":9230.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9230.706593750001,"end":9231.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9231.938468750002,"end":9243.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9231.972218750001,"end":9232.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9243.02534375,"end":9243.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9243.430343750002,"end":9244.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9244.03784375,"end":9245.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9245.539718750002,"end":9248.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9248.290343750003,"end":9249.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9250.062218750001,"end":9252.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9252.930968750003,"end":9254.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9255.394718750002,"end":9258.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9255.495968750001,"end":9256.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9258.044093750003,"end":9259.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9260.17034375,"end":9260.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9260.22096875,"end":9260.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9261.030968750001,"end":9261.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9262.16159375,"end":9263.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9265.148468750001,"end":9265.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9265.23284375,"end":9267.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9267.747218750003,"end":9271.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9267.76409375,"end":9269.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9271.425968750002,"end":9276.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9271.67909375,"end":9272.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9277.21409375,"end":9281.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9281.83784375,"end":9283.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9283.42409375,"end":9283.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9283.47471875,"end":9283.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9283.62659375,"end":9283.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9283.64346875,"end":9283.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9283.660343750002,"end":9283.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9283.67721875,"end":9285.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9285.465968750003,"end":9285.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9286.74846875,"end":9287.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9287.96346875,"end":9289.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9288.030968750001,"end":9293.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9289.296593750001,"end":9290.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9294.76409375,"end":9297.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9297.12659375,"end":9300.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9301.328468750002,"end":9309.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9305.277218750001,"end":9305.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9306.542843750001,"end":9306.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9307.555343750002,"end":9310.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9309.79971875,"end":9310.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9310.00221875,"end":9310.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9310.035968750002,"end":9310.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9310.27221875,"end":9310.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9310.305968750003,"end":9334.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9334.977218750002,"end":9361.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9342.68909375,"end":9343.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9346.469093750002,"end":9346.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9358.61909375,"end":9370.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9364.187843750002,"end":9364.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9364.22159375,"end":9364.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9364.69409375,"end":9364.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9364.727843750003,"end":9365.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9365.605343750001,"end":9366.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9366.60096875,"end":9366.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9371.460968750001,"end":9375.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9372.034718750001,"end":9372.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9373.266593750002,"end":9373.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9376.692218750002,"end":9379.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9380.067218750002,"end":9389.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9390.074093750001,"end":9392.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9392.75721875,"end":9395.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9396.081593750001,"end":9403.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9404.468468750001,"end":9427.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9427.03034375,"end":9445.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9432.61596875,"end":9436.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9443.280968750001,"end":9443.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9445.035968750002,"end":9455.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9455.66721875,"end":9456.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9456.86534375,"end":9456.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9456.88221875,"end":9461.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9459.61596875,"end":9461.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9461.590343750002,"end":9461.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9461.640968750002,"end":9461.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9461.809718750003,"end":9461.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9462.602843750003,"end":9462.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9463.56471875,"end":9477.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9470.550968750002,"end":9471.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9477.891593750002,"end":9477.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9477.942218750002,"end":9478.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9478.769093750001,"end":9478.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9478.785968750002,"end":9478.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9478.80284375,"end":9478.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9478.81971875,"end":9478.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9478.836593750002,"end":9478.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9478.87034375,"end":9478.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9478.95471875,"end":9479.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9479.17409375,"end":9479.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9479.612843750001,"end":9479.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9480.76034375,"end":9483.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9483.325343750003,"end":9483.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9483.96659375,"end":9485.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9486.362843750001,"end":9487.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9488.15159375,"end":9494.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9489.282218750002,"end":9504.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9504.874718750001,"end":9505.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9506.730968750002,"end":9507.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9508.418468750002,"end":9509.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9509.532218750002,"end":9511.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9511.87784375,"end":9513.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9514.071593750003,"end":9514.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9515.30346875,"end":9517.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9517.952843750001,"end":9520.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9521.90159375,"end":9523.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9525.344093750002,"end":9528.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9528.70221875,"end":9531.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9532.65096875,"end":9544.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9544.699718750002,"end":9550.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9550.774718750003,"end":9553.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9555.499718750001,"end":9556.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9557.17034375,"end":9558.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9557.44034375,"end":9559.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9559.43159375,"end":9559.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9559.684718750003,"end":9571.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9572.442218750002,"end":9574.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9575.10846875,"end":9580.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9580.54221875,"end":9589.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9590.987843750001,"end":9592.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9591.13971875,"end":9591.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9592.33784375,"end":9600.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9600.809093750002,"end":9603.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9605.73659375,"end":9608.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9609.499718750001,"end":9610.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9610.32659375,"end":9613.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9611.49096875,"end":9612.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9612.75659375,"end":9616.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9616.215968750003,"end":9620.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9621.17721875,"end":9637.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9638.28846875,"end":9640.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9641.07284375,"end":9642.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9642.55784375,"end":9644.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9644.903468750003,"end":9645.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9646.43909375,"end":9650.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9651.13034375,"end":9651.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9653.442218750002,"end":9655.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9655.78784375,"end":9656.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9656.83409375,"end":9657.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9657.542843750001,"end":9663.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9663.668468750002,"end":9666.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9666.90846875,"end":9667.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9667.65096875,"end":9697.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9698.414093750001,"end":9730.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9730.71284375,"end":9734.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9735.167843750001,"end":9769.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9769.727843750003,"end":9772.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9773.237843750001,"end":9774.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9775.22909375,"end":9780.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9780.61221875,"end":9786.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9787.29471875,"end":9798.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9799.37721875,"end":9813.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9809.805968750003,"end":9811.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9812.08409375,"end":9816.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9817.332218750002,"end":9827.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9819.88034375,"end":9819.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9820.20096875,"end":9820.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9821.16284375,"end":9821.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9822.917843750001,"end":9822.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9824.571593750003,"end":9825.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9828.081593750001,"end":9837.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9837.71721875,"end":9850.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9849.074093750001,"end":9853.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9853.74846875,"end":9858.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9858.97971875,"end":9860.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9860.02596875,"end":9860.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9860.093468750001,"end":9860.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9860.17784375,"end":9860.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9860.211593750002,"end":9860.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9860.92034375,"end":9861.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9861.004718750002,"end":9861.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9861.02159375,"end":9864.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9865.122218750003,"end":9868.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9867.012218750002,"end":9869.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9869.94846875,"end":9870.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9870.640343750001,"end":9870.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9871.63596875,"end":9873.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9872.09159375,"end":9873.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9873.171593750001,"end":9873.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9874.285343750002,"end":9880.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9885.50721875,"end":9887.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9887.76846875,"end":9891.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9891.430343750002,"end":9891.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9895.227218750002,"end":9896.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9899.98596875,"end":9981.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9909.030968750001,"end":9909.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9918.312218750001,"end":9918.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9982.234718750002,"end":10012.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10012.96409375,"end":10032.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10027.88159375,"end":10028.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10029.062843750002,"end":10029.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10031.10471875,"end":10035.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10036.11659375,"end":10040.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10041.26346875,"end":10045.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10045.11096875,"end":10045.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10045.12784375,"end":10045.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10045.212218750003,"end":10045.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10045.49909375,"end":10045.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10045.515968750002,"end":10055.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10052.77221875,"end":10053.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10054.40909375,"end":10055.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10055.438468750002,"end":10055.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10055.472218750001,"end":10055.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10055.65784375,"end":10066.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10062.289718750002,"end":10062.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10065.816593750002,"end":10066.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10066.12034375,"end":10086.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10078.92846875,"end":10078.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10078.945343750001,"end":10079.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10079.28284375,"end":10079.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10079.35034375,"end":10079.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10081.24034375,"end":10081.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10081.25721875,"end":10081.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10086.77534375,"end":10090.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10088.496593750002,"end":10088.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10091.331593750001,"end":10099.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10100.42721875,"end":10124.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10122.78659375,"end":10125.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10125.773468750001,"end":10130.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10128.895343750002,"end":10129.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10130.17784375,"end":10130.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10130.835968750001,"end":10138.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10135.004093750002,"end":10138.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10138.83471875,"end":10139.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10139.45909375,"end":10149.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10139.52659375,"end":10140.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10142.344718750002,"end":10142.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10143.340343750002,"end":10144.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10149.887843750003,"end":10163.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10163.57346875,"end":10211.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10177.02284375,"end":10177.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10177.140968750002,"end":10177.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10177.17471875,"end":10177.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10211.22846875,"end":10217.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10218.45096875,"end":10246.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10247.03721875,"end":10287.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10258.410968750002,"end":10258.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10258.47846875,"end":10258.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10287.53721875,"end":10289.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10287.80721875,"end":10289.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10289.86596875,"end":10294.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10289.882843750001,"end":10290.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10295.367218750001,"end":10298.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10298.97846875,"end":10305.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10302.62346875,"end":10303.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10304.125343750002,"end":10312.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10306.859093750001,"end":10307.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10308.15846875,"end":10309.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10309.761593750001,"end":10310.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10311.21284375,"end":10311.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10311.921593750001,"end":10312.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10312.461593750002,"end":10312.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10312.63034375,"end":10314.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10312.79909375,"end":10313.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10313.69346875,"end":10314.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10314.97596875,"end":10315.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10315.02659375,"end":10315.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10315.22909375,"end":10315.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10316.359718750002,"end":10318.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10317.456593750001,"end":10317.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10317.86159375,"end":10321.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10318.80659375,"end":10318.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10318.890968750002,"end":10321.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10321.86096875,"end":10321.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10324.35846875,"end":10327.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10334.972843750002,"end":10337.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10337.06534375,"end":10337.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10338.22971875,"end":10338.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10338.246593750002,"end":10338.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10338.28034375,"end":10338.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10338.33096875,"end":10338.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10338.567218750002,"end":10338.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10340.828468750002,"end":10354.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10355.020343750002,"end":10367.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10367.575343750003,"end":10398.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10380.02909375,"end":10380.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10390.00221875,"end":10390.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10390.019093750001,"end":10390.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10398.203468750002,"end":10404.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10404.59909375,"end":10413.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10413.390968750002,"end":10424.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10424.44409375,"end":10444.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10443.765968750002,"end":10453.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10452.96284375,"end":10458.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10458.93659375,"end":10499.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10463.290343750003,"end":10463.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10465.230968750002,"end":10466.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10466.56409375,"end":10466.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10500.499718750001,"end":10500.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10500.75284375,"end":10511.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10510.253468750001,"end":10511.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10511.417843750001,"end":10515.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10511.62034375,"end":10513.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10515.83909375,"end":10516.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10515.92346875,"end":10517.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10517.374718750001,"end":10526.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10524.074093750001,"end":10525.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10526.01471875,"end":10556.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10556.524718750003,"end":10563.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10559.832218750002,"end":10560.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10564.01721875,"end":10567.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10567.30784375,"end":10567.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10567.645343750002,"end":10572.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10573.332218750002,"end":10582.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10582.343468750001,"end":10589.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10588.13159375,"end":10598.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10597.41284375,"end":10604.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10599.606593750003,"end":10601.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10603.62284375,"end":10603.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10604.500343750002,"end":10604.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10604.53409375,"end":10605.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10604.93909375,"end":10623.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10608.668468750002,"end":10609.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10611.26721875,"end":10612.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10612.39784375,"end":10612.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10622.370968750001,"end":10623.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10623.332843750002,"end":10628.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10629.019718750002,"end":10636.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10636.54596875,"end":10652.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10652.391593750002,"end":10657.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10658.129093750002,"end":10662.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10662.31409375,"end":10672.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10669.38471875,"end":10670.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10672.13534375,"end":10672.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10673.13096875,"end":10678.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10678.51409375,"end":10678.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10679.40846875,"end":10679.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10679.425343750001,"end":10716.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10679.442218750002,"end":10682.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10683.42471875,"end":10684.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10684.875968750002,"end":10684.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10694.81534375,"end":10695.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10700.65409375,"end":10701.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10701.02534375,"end":10701.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10703.590343750002,"end":10704.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10707.859718750002,"end":10708.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10708.028468750003,"end":10708.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10708.281593750002,"end":10708.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10715.976593750001,"end":10720.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10716.06096875,"end":10716.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10720.769093750001,"end":10736.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10735.872218750003,"end":10737.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10738.032218750002,"end":10753.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10739.93909375,"end":10742.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10742.58846875,"end":10744.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10748.54534375,"end":10751.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10752.747218750003,"end":10753.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10754.14784375,"end":10759.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10759.969718750002,"end":10760.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10760.914718750002,"end":10792.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10764.69471875,"end":10765.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10766.179718750001,"end":10767.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10772.727218750002,"end":10772.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":10772.74409375,"end":10772.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10772.81159375,"end":10774.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10791.72846875,"end":10792.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10792.437218750001,"end":10792.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10795.15409375,"end":10798.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10811.03346875,"end":10811.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10812.19784375,"end":10812.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10813.21034375,"end":10813.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10815.35346875,"end":10816.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10817.327843750001,"end":10818.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10819.16721875,"end":10819.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10823.706593750001,"end":10824.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10825.562843750002,"end":10828.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10829.02221875,"end":10831.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10831.620968750001,"end":10835.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10835.468468750001,"end":10835.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10836.98721875,"end":10839.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10839.45096875,"end":10853.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10854.030968750001,"end":10857.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10857.844718750002,"end":10861.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10861.995968750001,"end":10863.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10863.83534375,"end":10877.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10877.41971875,"end":10877.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10877.622218750003,"end":10880.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10880.727218750002,"end":10881.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10881.90846875,"end":10885.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10886.059718750003,"end":10894.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10893.46784375,"end":10896.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10896.99471875,"end":10900.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10901.449718750002,"end":10910.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10911.33846875,"end":10914.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10914.848468750002,"end":10918.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10919.20221875,"end":10919.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10919.94471875,"end":10920.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10921.31159375,"end":10926.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10926.99846875,"end":10935.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10935.80721875,"end":10936.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10936.92096875,"end":10942.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10942.60784375,"end":10943.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10944.14346875,"end":10953.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10953.82971875,"end":10959.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10960.343468750001,"end":10971.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10970.215343750002,"end":10970.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10971.97034375,"end":10975.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10971.98721875,"end":10972.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10975.699718750002,"end":10981.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10981.69034375,"end":10984.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10985.33534375,"end":10987.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10987.69784375,"end":10990.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10990.887218750002,"end":10996.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10996.742843750002,"end":11000.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11000.92784375,"end":11008.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11009.38221875,"end":11018.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11018.730968750002,"end":11023.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11024.063468750002,"end":11036.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11035.757843750001,"end":11043.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11043.773468750001,"end":11046.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11046.473468750002,"end":11052.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11052.734093750001,"end":11056.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11056.969718750002,"end":11059.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11060.51346875,"end":11064.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11064.833468750003,"end":11067.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11066.41971875,"end":11066.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11067.16221875,"end":11067.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11068.00596875,"end":11074.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11075.835968750001,"end":11078.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11079.14346875,"end":11080.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11080.71284375,"end":11083.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11083.71659375,"end":11085.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11085.87659375,"end":11085.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11085.910343750002,"end":11086.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11086.31534375,"end":11102.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11104.574093750001,"end":11110.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11110.76721875,"end":11114.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11114.445968750002,"end":11114.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11114.73284375,"end":11118.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11114.749718750001,"end":11115.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11115.69471875,"end":11115.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11119.710968750001,"end":11120.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11121.246593750002,"end":11122.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11123.204093750002,"end":11127.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11128.35096875,"end":11137.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11137.699718750002,"end":11140.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11141.09159375,"end":11145.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11145.68159375,"end":11148.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11146.94721875,"end":11147.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11147.031593750002,"end":11148.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11148.06096875,"end":11148.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11149.37721875,"end":11150.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11151.65534375,"end":11158.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11159.55284375,"end":11161.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11162.168468750002,"end":11166.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11167.011593750001,"end":11171.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11172.023468750001,"end":11174.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11175.16221875,"end":11179.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11180.17409375,"end":11185.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11186.35034375,"end":11193.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11193.859718750002,"end":11196.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11197.065968750001,"end":11197.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11199.20909375,"end":11199.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11200.37346875,"end":11201.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11202.297218750002,"end":11206.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11207.039093750001,"end":11221.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11221.24784375,"end":11235.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11235.92909375,"end":11240.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11240.789093750001,"end":11249.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11249.04096875,"end":11250.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11249.614718750003,"end":11252.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11252.770343750002,"end":11256.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11256.80346875,"end":11257.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11257.12409375,"end":11259.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11260.33034375,"end":11277.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11277.542843750001,"end":11286.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11287.785968750002,"end":11293.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11291.835968750001,"end":11295.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11306.26409375,"end":11308.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11316.692843750003,"end":11319.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11320.118468750003,"end":11323.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11323.797218750002,"end":11329.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11329.63596875,"end":11330.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11331.27284375,"end":11331.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11332.21784375,"end":11333.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11334.05721875,"end":11334.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11336.01471875,"end":11337.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11337.246593750002,"end":11337.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11346.578468750002,"end":11347.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11347.472843750002,"end":11348.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11348.856593750003,"end":11349.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11349.801593750002,"end":11350.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11351.539718750002,"end":11356.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11356.872218750003,"end":11358.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11363.453468750002,"end":11363.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11363.48721875,"end":11363.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11363.74034375,"end":11363.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11368.515968750002,"end":11371.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11370.22034375,"end":11371.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11371.50284375,"end":11374.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11374.38846875,"end":11374.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11374.945343750001,"end":11376.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11377.122218750003,"end":11379.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11379.484718750002,"end":11385.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11386.234718750002,"end":11402.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11402.97471875,"end":11404.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11403.91971875,"end":11407.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11407.969718750002,"end":11408.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11409.167843750001,"end":11419.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11410.770968750003,"end":11410.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11419.039718750002,"end":11425.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11429.23221875,"end":11429.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11431.223468750002,"end":11431.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11432.894093750001,"end":11446.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11447.37284375,"end":11452.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11453.380343750003,"end":11454.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11455.03409375,"end":11477.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11459.860343750002,"end":11459.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11459.92784375,"end":11461.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11468.297843750002,"end":11468.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11468.68596875,"end":11468.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11468.972843750002,"end":11469.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11469.023468750001,"end":11469.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11470.677218750003,"end":11470.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11470.710968750001,"end":11470.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11470.74471875,"end":11470.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11477.190968750001,"end":11482.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11482.844093750002,"end":11484.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11485.206593750001,"end":11489.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11489.340968750003,"end":11495.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11493.37409375,"end":11497.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11497.677218750003,"end":11508.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11508.91596875,"end":11510.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11512.122218750003,"end":11512.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11514.07971875,"end":11518.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11516.99909375,"end":11518.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11519.78346875,"end":11522.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11522.21346875,"end":11523.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11523.58034375,"end":11524.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11524.727843750003,"end":11526.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11525.031593750002,"end":11525.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11527.12409375,"end":11528.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11528.980343750001,"end":11532.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11532.102218750002,"end":11536.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11535.96659375,"end":11536.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11536.574093750001,"end":11537.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11537.789093750001,"end":11539.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11539.71284375,"end":11542.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11540.30346875,"end":11542.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11542.902218750001,"end":11543.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11543.745968750001,"end":11552.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11554.410968750002,"end":11562.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11561.363468750002,"end":11566.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11565.46409375,"end":11566.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11566.949093750001,"end":11581.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11579.06534375,"end":11579.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11580.786593750003,"end":11583.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11583.098468750002,"end":11583.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11584.667843750001,"end":11584.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11585.66346875,"end":11588.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11590.65846875,"end":11591.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11594.286593750003,"end":11594.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11594.387843750003,"end":11617.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11594.92784375,"end":11595.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11617.87784375,"end":11622.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11622.231593750003,"end":11624.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11624.847218750001,"end":11630.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11630.972843750002,"end":11631.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11631.090968750003,"end":11634.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11635.54596875,"end":11638.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11638.53284375,"end":11639.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11640.59159375,"end":11641.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11641.82346875,"end":11644.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11643.81471875,"end":11649.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11649.130343750003,"end":11651.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11649.67034375,"end":11656.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11655.84659375,"end":11681.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11658.32721875,"end":11658.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11666.629718750002,"end":11667.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11667.96284375,"end":11668.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11669.414093750001,"end":11669.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11669.44784375,"end":11670.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11670.477218750002,"end":11670.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11679.066593750002,"end":11685.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11685.968468750001,"end":11687.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11687.74034375,"end":11699.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11697.51096875,"end":11712.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11700.430343750002,"end":11700.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11709.120968750001,"end":11709.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":11709.593468750001,"end":11709.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11709.610343750002,"end":11709.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11709.644093750001,"end":11709.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11712.664718750002,"end":11718.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":11712.68159375,"end":11713.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11713.27221875,"end":11713.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11717.355968750002,"end":11718.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11719.245968750001,"end":11728.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11726.215343750002,"end":11726.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11728.45971875,"end":11734.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11734.66971875,"end":11735.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11734.68659375,"end":11734.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11734.99034375,"end":11743.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11743.91721875,"end":11752.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11750.093468750001,"end":11754.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11755.03784375,"end":11758.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11758.73346875,"end":11778.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11778.004718750002,"end":11778.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11778.105968750002,"end":11778.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11778.56159375,"end":11779.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11779.118468750003,"end":11789.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11779.50659375,"end":11781.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11783.82659375,"end":11784.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11784.974093750003,"end":11785.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11785.851593750001,"end":11785.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11786.644718750002,"end":11788.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11789.73284375,"end":11792.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11796.33096875,"end":11806.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11797.42784375,"end":11797.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11797.52909375,"end":11797.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11806.72596875,"end":11809.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11810.03346875,"end":11813.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11812.88534375,"end":11820.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11816.597843750002,"end":11817.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11818.63971875,"end":11829.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11829.86159375,"end":11829.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11829.878468750001,"end":11835.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11830.03034375,"end":11830.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11834.67096875,"end":11836.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11835.39659375,"end":11850.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11850.68534375,"end":11854.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11854.60034375,"end":11882.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11862.56534375,"end":11862.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11862.88596875,"end":11863.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11863.054718750001,"end":11863.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11863.81409375,"end":11863.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11865.552218750003,"end":11865.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11865.704093750002,"end":11865.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11865.754718750002,"end":11866.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11876.706593750001,"end":11877.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11882.427218750003,"end":11882.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11884.33409375,"end":11887.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11888.215343750002,"end":11891.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11898.863468750002,"end":11904.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11904.48284375,"end":11907.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11908.566593750002,"end":11909.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11910.726593750001,"end":11913.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11913.325343750003,"end":11916.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11917.577843750001,"end":11922.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11923.703468750002,"end":11923.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11924.10846875,"end":11924.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11925.458468750003,"end":11926.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11927.88846875,"end":11929.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11929.390343750001,"end":11951.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11951.98596875,"end":12065.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12066.17909375,"end":12130.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12131.839718750001,"end":12136.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12137.374718750001,"end":12166.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12166.534718750001,"end":12176.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12176.609093750001,"end":12203.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12203.59221875,"end":12258.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12258.55409375,"end":12259.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12260.984093750001,"end":12261.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12261.96284375,"end":12262.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12263.144093750001,"end":12263.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12263.160968750002,"end":12263.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12264.224093750003,"end":12264.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12265.692218750002,"end":12267.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12276.019718750002,"end":12276.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12277.26846875,"end":12281.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12281.993468750003,"end":12284.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12285.60471875,"end":12287.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12295.34159375,"end":12296.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12296.99534375,"end":12304.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12305.26409375,"end":12308.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12308.47034375,"end":12314.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12315.034718750001,"end":12316.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12316.199093750001,"end":12321.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12321.83534375,"end":12326.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12327.04971875,"end":12329.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12329.496593750002,"end":12335.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12335.250968750002,"end":12336.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12336.65159375,"end":12337.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12338.00159375,"end":12338.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12339.149093750002,"end":12346.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12346.793468750002,"end":12347.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12348.49784375,"end":12354.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12354.555968750003,"end":12362.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12362.74034375,"end":12363.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12363.70221875,"end":12364.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12364.96784375,"end":12370.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12371.110343750002,"end":12373.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12373.43909375,"end":12402.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12400.641593750002,"end":12407.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12402.683468750001,"end":12403.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12407.965343750002,"end":12413.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12414.05721875,"end":12414.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12415.238468750002,"end":12416.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12417.550343750001,"end":12418.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12419.895968750003,"end":12420.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12421.39784375,"end":12423.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12423.524093750002,"end":12433.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12433.36221875,"end":12438.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12438.47534375,"end":12445.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12446.727218750002,"end":12476.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12477.102218750002,"end":12500.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12500.86221875,"end":12501.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12501.11534375,"end":12532.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12533.042843750001,"end":12535.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12536.13096875,"end":12545.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12545.68221875,"end":12551.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12551.976593750001,"end":12561.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12562.320968750002,"end":12566.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12563.67096875,"end":12568.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12566.016593750002,"end":12566.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12568.71659375,"end":12568.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12568.851593750001,"end":12595.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12595.227218750002,"end":12604.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12605.453468750002,"end":12620.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12620.97846875,"end":12626.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12626.85096875,"end":12638.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12626.95221875,"end":12626.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12626.969093750002,"end":12626.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12626.98596875,"end":12627.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12628.302218750003,"end":12628.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12628.31909375,"end":12629.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12629.331593750001,"end":12629.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12637.617218750001,"end":12643.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12643.574093750001,"end":12643.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12643.65846875,"end":12643.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12643.742843750002,"end":12645.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12643.75971875,"end":12646.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12646.476593750001,"end":12650.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12650.020343750002,"end":12652.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12652.973468750002,"end":12669.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12667.90784375,"end":12671.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12670.793468750002,"end":12675.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12672.683468750001,"end":12673.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12676.480343750001,"end":12683.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12684.52971875,"end":12696.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12696.96659375,"end":12699.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12700.40909375,"end":12706.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12705.03284375,"end":12705.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12706.349093750003,"end":12712.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12707.715968750003,"end":12708.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12710.04471875,"end":12711.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12712.32284375,"end":12714.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12715.49534375,"end":12719.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12719.86596875,"end":12720.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12720.473468750002,"end":12729.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12729.88971875,"end":12729.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12729.906593750002,"end":12739.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12739.086593750002,"end":12739.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12739.339718750001,"end":12757.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12757.93596875,"end":12763.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12763.774718750003,"end":12767.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12767.31846875,"end":12771.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12772.07721875,"end":12773.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12773.933468750001,"end":12777.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12777.325343750003,"end":12782.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12782.35409375,"end":12782.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12782.60721875,"end":12784.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12782.62409375,"end":12782.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12784.395968750003,"end":12784.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12784.88534375,"end":12789.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12787.46721875,"end":12788.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12789.57659375,"end":12797.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12797.001593750003,"end":12798.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12798.70596875,"end":12813.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12813.167843750001,"end":12813.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12813.977843750003,"end":12814.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12814.028468750003,"end":12814.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12814.46721875,"end":12814.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12814.56846875,"end":12816.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12816.77909375,"end":12817.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12817.032218750002,"end":12820.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12820.829093750002,"end":12822.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12821.43659375,"end":12827.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12826.80284375,"end":12827.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12827.680343750002,"end":12834.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12834.312218750001,"end":12834.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12834.700343750003,"end":12835.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12834.71721875,"end":12835.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12835.78034375,"end":12864.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12863.67471875,"end":12873.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12867.31971875,"end":12868.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12873.040343750003,"end":12875.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12873.79971875,"end":12875.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12875.95971875,"end":12881.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12881.460968750001,"end":12886.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12883.85721875,"end":12884.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12886.75971875,"end":12887.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12887.02971875,"end":12909.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12891.46784375,"end":12891.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12891.78846875,"end":12891.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12892.93596875,"end":12893.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12893.05409375,"end":12894.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12894.336593750002,"end":12894.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12894.74159375,"end":12894.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12894.758468750002,"end":12895.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12895.349093750003,"end":12895.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12902.183468750001,"end":12902.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12902.284718750001,"end":12902.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12902.43659375,"end":12903.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12904.360343750002,"end":12904.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12904.47846875,"end":12905.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12911.059718750003,"end":12913.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12914.063468750002,"end":12921.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12922.079093750002,"end":12934.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":12934.110968750003,"end":12934.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12934.364093750002,"end":12935.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12935.460968750001,"end":12967.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12967.50659375,"end":12978.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12978.644093750001,"end":12985.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12985.765343750001,"end":12998.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12999.130343750003,"end":13002.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13002.77534375,"end":13014.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13014.63846875,"end":13018.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13018.570343750001,"end":13020.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13018.789718750002,"end":13019.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13019.12721875,"end":13019.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13019.852843750003,"end":13023.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13023.599093750003,"end":13023.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13023.88596875,"end":13023.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13024.08846875,"end":13026.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13026.653468750003,"end":13027.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13027.750343750002,"end":13027.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13027.817843750003,"end":13034.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13033.656593750002,"end":13036.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13035.614093750002,"end":13078.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13039.17471875,"end":13039.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13056.82596875,"end":13058.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13059.239093750002,"end":13059.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13059.37409375,"end":13059.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13072.55346875,"end":13073.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13076.856593750003,"end":13077.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13077.86909375,"end":13078.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13082.442218750002,"end":13083.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13083.82596875,"end":13086.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13101.679718750001,"end":13115.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13113.340343750002,"end":13113.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13115.129093750002,"end":13115.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13116.360968750003,"end":13117.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13119.415343750003,"end":13121.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13121.659718750001,"end":13125.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13126.77284375,"end":13127.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13127.19471875,"end":13128.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13127.22846875,"end":13127.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13136.695343750001,"end":13143.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13143.968468750001,"end":13148.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13148.71034375,"end":13148.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13149.58784375,"end":13150.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13151.39346875,"end":13165.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13166.749718750001,"end":13167.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13168.63971875,"end":13200.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13200.63471875,"end":13233.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13234.215968750003,"end":13243.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13244.070968750002,"end":13245.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13245.37034375,"end":13247.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13248.20534375,"end":13248.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13249.504718750002,"end":13250.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13250.702843750001,"end":13251.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13251.344093750002,"end":13253.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13253.655968750001,"end":13259.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13259.22471875,"end":13261.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13262.009093750003,"end":13274.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13275.660968750002,"end":13276.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13276.79159375,"end":13280.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13280.723468750002,"end":13284.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13284.773468750001,"end":13297.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13291.45596875,"end":13291.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13291.523468750001,"end":13291.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13297.68284375,"end":13297.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13297.868468750003,"end":13298.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13298.67846875,"end":13307.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13308.43221875,"end":13326.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13327.19721875,"end":13363.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13328.68221875,"end":13328.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13363.74846875,"end":13380.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13380.99471875,"end":13383.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13381.973468750002,"end":13383.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13383.711593750002,"end":13383.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13383.981593750003,"end":13384.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13384.032218750002,"end":13384.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13384.065968750001,"end":13384.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13384.082843750002,"end":13384.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13384.487843750001,"end":13384.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13384.673468750003,"end":13390.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13387.457843750002,"end":13388.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13389.837218750003,"end":13398.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13398.207218750002,"end":13404.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13399.33784375,"end":13400.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13400.468468750001,"end":13400.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13403.94471875,"end":13404.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13404.012218750002,"end":13404.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13404.61971875,"end":13407.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13407.25221875,"end":13407.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13407.84284375,"end":13409.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13409.73284375,"end":13410.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13410.914093750001,"end":13415.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13416.499718750001,"end":13428.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13428.86909375,"end":13429.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13429.324718750002,"end":13441.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13442.234093750001,"end":13452.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13453.067843750003,"end":13462.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13462.66971875,"end":13462.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13462.703468750002,"end":13463.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13462.973468750002,"end":13462.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13462.99034375,"end":13463.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13463.88471875,"end":13468.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13463.90159375,"end":13463.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13468.829093750002,"end":13473.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13473.520343750002,"end":13479.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13480.253468750001,"end":13485.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13485.754718750002,"end":13489.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13489.973468750002,"end":13491.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13491.914093750001,"end":13495.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13495.559093750002,"end":13502.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13502.376593750003,"end":13504.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13502.511593750001,"end":13502.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13502.579093750002,"end":13502.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13502.612843750001,"end":13502.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13502.96721875,"end":13504.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13504.03034375,"end":13504.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13505.34659375,"end":13505.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13506.173468750003,"end":13508.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13508.97471875,"end":13510.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13511.08409375,"end":13512.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13513.277843750002,"end":13513.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13514.20596875,"end":13517.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13518.10409375,"end":13519.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13519.89284375,"end":13527.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13527.722843750002,"end":13542.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13542.927218750003,"end":13551.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13551.68534375,"end":13552.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13553.06909375,"end":13553.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13553.946593750003,"end":13556.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13556.950343750003,"end":13560.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13560.81471875,"end":13561.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13561.70909375,"end":13562.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13562.805968750003,"end":13586.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13587.173468750003,"end":13590.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13590.83534375,"end":13595.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13595.492843750002,"end":13607.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13608.16596875,"end":13623.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13623.488468750002,"end":13623.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13624.04534375,"end":13628.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13628.78721875,"end":13654.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13652.46284375,"end":13652.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13652.969093750002,"end":13653.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13654.62284375,"end":13663.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13656.445343750001,"end":13656.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13656.462218750003,"end":13656.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13664.12346875,"end":13670.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13670.62034375,"end":13671.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13670.907218750002,"end":13676.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13676.56034375,"end":13678.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13679.395343750002,"end":13687.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13686.719093750002,"end":13687.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13687.02284375,"end":13687.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13687.731593750003,"end":13693.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13693.75596875,"end":13694.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13694.329718750003,"end":13698.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13699.13909375,"end":13708.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13708.184093750002,"end":13708.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13708.977218750002,"end":13716.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13716.38534375,"end":13716.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13717.161593750003,"end":13729.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13729.71659375,"end":13730.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13730.222843750002,"end":13730.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13730.25659375,"end":13737.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13737.69846875,"end":13741.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13741.96784375,"end":13741.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13741.984718750002,"end":13762.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":13755.535343750002,"end":13755.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13755.974093750003,"end":13756.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13756.04159375,"end":13756.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13761.812843750002,"end":13764.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13764.95159375,"end":13777.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13777.35471875,"end":13780.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13780.020968750003,"end":13786.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13784.273468750001,"end":13788.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13789.386593750001,"end":13800.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13800.321593750003,"end":13800.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13800.372218750003,"end":13800.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13800.38909375,"end":13800.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13800.60846875,"end":13800.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13800.70971875,"end":13800.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13800.794093750003,"end":13801.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13801.165343750003,"end":13801.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13803.645968750003,"end":13806.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13805.114093750002,"end":13816.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13817.972843750002,"end":13819.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13819.778468750003,"end":13822.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13822.765343750001,"end":13826.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13825.954718750003,"end":13834.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13835.18534375,"end":13848.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13847.099093750003,"end":13850.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13850.81159375,"end":13851.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13851.149093750002,"end":13852.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13851.739718750003,"end":13851.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13851.773468750001,"end":13853.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13852.97159375,"end":13881.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13881.574718750002,"end":13882.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13883.481593750003,"end":13889.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13889.489093750002,"end":13893.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13893.690968750001,"end":13898.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13899.68159375,"end":13900.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13905.267218750003,"end":13908.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13908.642218750003,"end":13909.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13910.110343750002,"end":13910.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13914.88596875,"end":13950.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13920.62346875,"end":13920.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13950.239093750002,"end":13954.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13954.930343750002,"end":13955.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13955.976593750001,"end":13956.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13956.01034375,"end":13956.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13956.449093750001,"end":13959.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13959.97596875,"end":13960.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13961.460968750001,"end":13967.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13964.954093750002,"end":13968.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13967.907218750002,"end":13972.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13972.68284375,"end":13976.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13976.496593750002,"end":13978.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13978.74096875,"end":13981.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13982.33534375,"end":13984.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13985.237843750001,"end":13992.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13991.835968750001,"end":14016.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14017.367843750002,"end":14017.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14018.059718750003,"end":14018.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14018.414093750001,"end":14020.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14020.40534375,"end":14035.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14034.58034375,"end":14040.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14037.027218750001,"end":14037.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14040.90846875,"end":14045.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14045.903468750003,"end":14046.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14047.540343750003,"end":14050.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14050.814093750003,"end":14051.657843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14051.82659375,"end":14056.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14057.395343750002,"end":14059.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14059.386593750001,"end":14060.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14060.58471875,"end":14065.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14066.406593750002,"end":14067.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14068.22909375,"end":14077.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14077.425968750002,"end":14078.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14079.180968750003,"end":14081.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14081.324093750001,"end":14083.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14084.15909375,"end":14085.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14085.542843750001,"end":14091.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14091.70221875,"end":14093.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14093.474093750003,"end":14117.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14096.005343750003,"end":14096.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14097.08534375,"end":14097.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14117.33534375,"end":14139.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14140.724093750003,"end":14143.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14144.200343750003,"end":14144.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14144.892218750003,"end":14146.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14148.70596875,"end":14151.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14150.24159375,"end":14150.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14151.372218750003,"end":14151.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14151.422843750002,"end":14155.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14151.456593750001,"end":14152.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14155.03409375,"end":14155.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14155.962218750003,"end":14156.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14156.02971875,"end":14187.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14192.10846875,"end":14192.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14192.142218750003,"end":14212.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14213.759093750003,"end":14224.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14223.25971875,"end":14225.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14224.710968750001,"end":14228.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14227.242218750001,"end":14227.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14228.54159375,"end":14236.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14236.574093750001,"end":14238.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14238.02534375,"end":14250.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14240.87721875,"end":14240.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14245.821593750003,"end":14246.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14246.294093750003,"end":14246.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14250.968468750001,"end":14306.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14298.454718750003,"end":14299.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14306.95971875,"end":14318.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14318.333468750003,"end":14343.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14331.985343750002,"end":14332.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14332.086593750002,"end":14333.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14339.730968750002,"end":14342.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14342.86971875,"end":14342.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14343.96659375,"end":14346.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14347.425968750002,"end":14350.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14355.89721875,"end":14359.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14360.082218750002,"end":14362.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14362.95096875,"end":14365.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14365.718468750001,"end":14366.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14366.76471875,"end":14368.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14375.18534375,"end":14377.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14378.661593750003,"end":14378.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14379.454718750003,"end":14387.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14387.31846875,"end":14388.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14389.343468750001,"end":14409.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14409.77909375,"end":14412.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14413.27221875,"end":14498.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14499.65534375,"end":14502.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14503.40159375,"end":14506.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14507.02971875,"end":14508.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14508.953468750002,"end":14530.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14531.751593750003,"end":14537.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14537.94471875,"end":14550.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14550.85409375,"end":14564.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14565.855968750002,"end":14566.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14567.273468750001,"end":14567.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14568.67409375,"end":14571.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14572.032218750002,"end":14578.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14579.49096875,"end":14581.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14581.364093750002,"end":14614.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14612.937218750001,"end":14613.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14614.45596875,"end":14638.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14638.165343750003,"end":14638.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14638.43534375,"end":14638.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14638.97534375,"end":14651.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14640.105968750002,"end":14640.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14652.05346875,"end":14657.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14652.42471875,"end":14652.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14657.925968750002,"end":14662.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14662.515968750002,"end":14665.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14665.249718750001,"end":14681.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14680.16721875,"end":14705.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14682.32721875,"end":14682.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14684.571593750003,"end":14684.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14684.95971875,"end":14684.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14696.14784375,"end":14696.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14705.58096875,"end":14705.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14705.749718750001,"end":14711.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14711.90909375,"end":14714.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14714.507843750001,"end":14715.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14715.891593750002,"end":14729.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14730.62346875,"end":14733.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14733.829718750003,"end":14739.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14739.921593750001,"end":14750.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14750.87346875,"end":14753.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14754.585968750001,"end":14769.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14768.254718750002,"end":14775.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14770.54971875,"end":14770.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14775.595343750003,"end":14779.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14778.582218750002,"end":14780.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14780.590343750002,"end":14785.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14780.62409375,"end":14780.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14786.277218750001,"end":14798.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":14786.800343750001,"end":14787.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14787.509093750003,"end":14787.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14794.680968750003,"end":14794.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14799.18659375,"end":14817.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14799.23721875,"end":14799.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14799.254093750002,"end":14799.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14811.690968750001,"end":14811.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14811.99471875,"end":14812.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14817.90096875,"end":14823.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14822.997218750003,"end":14823.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14823.267218750003,"end":14833.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14832.02534375,"end":14835.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14836.19346875,"end":14837.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14838.690968750001,"end":14839.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14840.15909375,"end":14840.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14841.019718750002,"end":14842.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14843.38221875,"end":14848.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14848.96784375,"end":14849.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14849.54159375,"end":14852.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14856.899093750002,"end":14857.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14859.312218750001,"end":14861.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14862.82221875,"end":14863.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14864.391593750002,"end":14867.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14867.648468750001,"end":14869.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14870.179718750001,"end":14871.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14871.934718750003,"end":14872.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14875.714718750001,"end":14879.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14879.511593750001,"end":14882.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14885.519093750001,"end":14885.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14894.00721875,"end":14895.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14895.74534375,"end":14896.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14896.53846875,"end":14897.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14898.344093750002,"end":14902.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14903.474093750003,"end":14903.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14906.66346875,"end":14907.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14910.797843750002,"end":14911.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14912.755343750003,"end":14916.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14915.168468750002,"end":14916.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14917.581593750001,"end":14922.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14923.234718750002,"end":14923.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14924.48346875,"end":14924.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14924.989718750003,"end":14928.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14929.05659375,"end":14930.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14931.75659375,"end":14932.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14932.97159375,"end":14933.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14933.81534375,"end":14934.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14934.456593750001,"end":14935.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14936.009093750003,"end":14936.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14937.07221875,"end":14937.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14938.962218750003,"end":14939.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14940.599093750003,"end":14941.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14942.25284375,"end":14942.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14943.450968750003,"end":14946.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14946.488468750002,"end":14948.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14947.112843750001,"end":14947.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14949.120968750001,"end":14949.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14949.37409375,"end":14950.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14952.445343750001,"end":14953.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14954.250968750002,"end":14955.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14956.05659375,"end":14957.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14958.06471875,"end":14960.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14961.60846875,"end":14963.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14963.61659375,"end":14969.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14969.894093750001,"end":14977.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14977.63971875,"end":14977.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14977.808468750001,"end":14979.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14977.825343750003,"end":14977.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14980.204718750003,"end":14989.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14990.22846875,"end":14990.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14991.44346875,"end":14995.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14996.185343750003,"end":14997.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":14997.83909375,"end":14998.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14998.902218750001,"end":15004.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15004.605968750002,"end":15008.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15007.32284375,"end":15012.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15008.672843750002,"end":15008.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15008.774093750002,"end":15008.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15010.37721875,"end":15012.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15013.97159375,"end":15015.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15017.17784375,"end":15029.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15029.73284375,"end":15037.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15038.406593750002,"end":15041.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15041.579093750002,"end":15058.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15059.36534375,"end":15060.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15060.69846875,"end":15061.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15061.812218750001,"end":15064.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15066.621593750002,"end":15066.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15067.161593750003,"end":15068.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15070.35096875,"end":15076.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15071.414093750001,"end":15072.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15076.105343750001,"end":15077.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15076.847843750002,"end":15080.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15078.704093750002,"end":15079.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15079.61534375,"end":15082.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15082.804718750001,"end":15083.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15083.47971875,"end":15083.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15083.68221875,"end":15084.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15085.16721875,"end":15089.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15086.11221875,"end":15087.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15088.12034375,"end":15091.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15091.49534375,"end":15097.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15098.02596875,"end":15101.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15102.04221875,"end":15104.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15102.160343750002,"end":15102.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15104.50596875,"end":15140.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15106.46346875,"end":15106.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15115.12034375,"end":15115.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15115.761593750001,"end":15115.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15118.64721875,"end":15119.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15119.035343750002,"end":15119.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15119.81159375,"end":15119.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15119.96346875,"end":15120.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15121.195343750001,"end":15121.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15124.38471875,"end":15124.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15137.969093750002,"end":15138.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15141.495968750001,"end":15142.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15142.74471875,"end":15143.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15142.879718750002,"end":15144.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15145.02284375,"end":15149.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15149.86596875,"end":15152.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15152.903468750003,"end":15155.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15156.329093750002,"end":15163.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15164.10846875,"end":15165.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15166.302218750003,"end":15170.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15170.63909375,"end":15177.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15173.86221875,"end":15174.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15177.65909375,"end":15193.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15193.63971875,"end":15201.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15197.58846875,"end":15198.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15198.550343750001,"end":15198.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15202.245968750001,"end":15224.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15203.933468750001,"end":15204.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15204.38909375,"end":15204.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15204.55784375,"end":15204.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15204.827843750001,"end":15204.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15206.059718750003,"end":15206.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15206.093468750001,"end":15207.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15225.820343750001,"end":15228.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15228.368468750003,"end":15229.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15229.988468750002,"end":15230.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15231.574718750002,"end":15232.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15233.802218750003,"end":15234.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15234.07221875,"end":15234.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15235.270343750002,"end":15238.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15238.78034375,"end":15244.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15239.219093750002,"end":15240.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15241.547843750002,"end":15241.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15241.63221875,"end":15241.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15245.41221875,"end":15249.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15250.289093750001,"end":15251.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15252.297218750002,"end":15252.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15252.989093750002,"end":15265.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15266.13471875,"end":15267.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15268.345343750003,"end":15268.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15268.480343750001,"end":15274.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15275.399093750002,"end":15279.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15279.870968750001,"end":15281.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15281.609093750001,"end":15282.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15282.840968750003,"end":15284.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15284.140343750001,"end":15285.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15287.22846875,"end":15288.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15289.050968750002,"end":15292.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15292.392218750003,"end":15308.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15297.30284375,"end":15297.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15297.977843750003,"end":15298.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15301.04909375,"end":15301.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15301.47096875,"end":15301.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15308.895968750003,"end":15309.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15310.904093750003,"end":15311.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15312.169718750003,"end":15312.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15313.266593750002,"end":15315.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15316.472843750002,"end":15318.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15318.86909375,"end":15319.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15320.320343750001,"end":15321.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15321.906593750002,"end":15323.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15323.94846875,"end":15327.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15328.487843750001,"end":15328.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15328.99409375,"end":15332.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15332.504093750002,"end":15336.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15337.465343750002,"end":15338.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15339.60846875,"end":15342.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15342.91596875,"end":15343.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15346.51034375,"end":15347.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15349.51409375,"end":15349.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15351.77534375,"end":15352.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15353.294093750003,"end":15353.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15355.09971875,"end":15355.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15357.310343750003,"end":15358.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15358.22159375,"end":15358.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15358.91346875,"end":15375.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15358.930343750002,"end":15359.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15368.144093750001,"end":15368.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15371.856593750003,"end":15372.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15375.14721875,"end":15380.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15381.340343750002,"end":15382.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15383.331593750001,"end":15384.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15385.305968750003,"end":15387.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15388.17471875,"end":15392.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15393.86159375,"end":15401.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15401.50596875,"end":15402.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15402.805343750002,"end":15404.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15404.324093750001,"end":15405.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15406.19721875,"end":15407.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15407.867843750002,"end":15409.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15409.622843750003,"end":15411.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15412.27221875,"end":15413.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15416.27159375,"end":15418.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15419.02221875,"end":15421.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15422.144093750001,"end":15422.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15424.87784375,"end":15432.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15432.606593750003,"end":15433.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15434.04096875,"end":15437.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15438.20909375,"end":15439.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15440.21721875,"end":15440.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15441.60096875,"end":15442.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15442.96784375,"end":15443.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15443.91284375,"end":15444.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15445.735343750002,"end":15447.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15447.794093750003,"end":15448.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15450.08909375,"end":15451.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15451.489718750003,"end":15452.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15452.485343750002,"end":15453.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15454.206593750001,"end":15454.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15456.67034375,"end":15459.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15459.79221875,"end":15460.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15461.10846875,"end":15470.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15470.980343750001,"end":15471.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15474.355343750001,"end":15474.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15475.064093750003,"end":15476.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15477.477218750002,"end":15477.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15478.152218750001,"end":15490.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15479.08034375,"end":15481.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15481.695968750002,"end":15482.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15489.67784375,"end":15499.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15491.38221875,"end":15492.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15493.91346875,"end":15495.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15496.140968750002,"end":15496.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15499.85346875,"end":15511.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15510.754718750002,"end":15515.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15515.648468750001,"end":15519.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15519.884093750003,"end":15520.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15522.364718750003,"end":15526.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15526.887218750002,"end":15528.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15528.97971875,"end":15530.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15530.582843750002,"end":15531.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15532.75971875,"end":15535.341593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15536.62409375,"end":15537.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15537.906593750002,"end":15538.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15541.011593750001,"end":15550.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15551.153468750003,"end":15552.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15552.874718750001,"end":15563.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15563.590343750002,"end":15564.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15564.164093750001,"end":15566.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15566.796593750001,"end":15566.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15566.965343750002,"end":15568.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15567.42096875,"end":15571.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15572.21346875,"end":15574.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15575.95971875,"end":15577.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15577.96784375,"end":15578.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15580.60034375,"end":15582.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15580.87034375,"end":15581.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15582.50721875,"end":15585.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15586.03409375,"end":15587.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15588.14346875,"end":15588.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15589.324718750002,"end":15592.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15591.012218750002,"end":15591.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15591.029093750003,"end":15592.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15593.324093750001,"end":15594.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15594.94409375,"end":15601.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15600.968468750001,"end":15603.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15602.31846875,"end":15602.892218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15604.309718750003,"end":15609.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15608.91659375,"end":15610.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15611.042843750001,"end":15612.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15611.97096875,"end":15624.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15625.57221875,"end":15628.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15628.05284375,"end":15630.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15630.43221875,"end":15631.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15632.136593750001,"end":15634.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15634.97159375,"end":15635.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15636.355343750001,"end":15637.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15637.300343750001,"end":15637.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15638.19471875,"end":15640.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15640.219718750002,"end":15641.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15641.24909375,"end":15641.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15641.485343750002,"end":15641.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15641.535968750002,"end":15641.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15641.55284375,"end":15641.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15641.72159375,"end":15652.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15651.660968750002,"end":15654.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15654.10784375,"end":15657.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15654.495968750001,"end":15665.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15657.668468750002,"end":15657.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15658.832843750002,"end":15659.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15661.92096875,"end":15661.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15661.988468750002,"end":15662.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15665.886593750001,"end":15669.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15670.122218750003,"end":15678.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15678.087218750003,"end":15681.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15682.339718750001,"end":15682.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15683.250968750002,"end":15684.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15685.529093750003,"end":15686.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15687.149093750002,"end":15688.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15690.372218750003,"end":15693.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15694.439093750003,"end":15697.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15698.50596875,"end":15700.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15700.31159375,"end":15700.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15701.914718750002,"end":15716.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15710.43659375,"end":15710.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15710.976593750001,"end":15711.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15711.28034375,"end":15712.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15717.01784375,"end":15723.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15723.44721875,"end":15726.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15727.395968750003,"end":15728.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15728.77971875,"end":15728.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15728.796593750001,"end":15729.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15729.117218750001,"end":15733.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15733.622843750003,"end":15745.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15735.68159375,"end":15735.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15735.732218750003,"end":15735.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15736.305968750003,"end":15736.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15737.79096875,"end":15738.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15739.17471875,"end":15739.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15739.782218750002,"end":15739.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15744.034718750001,"end":15745.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15745.114718750003,"end":15752.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15752.269718750002,"end":15761.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15759.62721875,"end":15760.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15761.58471875,"end":15762.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15762.68159375,"end":15763.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15762.985343750002,"end":15763.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15764.723468750002,"end":15766.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15766.714718750001,"end":15770.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15771.43971875,"end":15773.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15774.56159375,"end":15775.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15776.114093750002,"end":15777.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15776.586593750002,"end":15777.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15777.02534375,"end":15777.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15777.04221875,"end":15780.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15780.67034375,"end":15781.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15781.125968750002,"end":15781.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15781.159718750001,"end":15781.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":15781.530968750001,"end":15783.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15782.57721875,"end":15784.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15783.977843750003,"end":15785.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15785.36159375,"end":15786.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15786.89721875,"end":15789.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15797.039093750001,"end":15799.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15800.97096875,"end":15801.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15802.894718750002,"end":15803.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15803.687843750002,"end":15803.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15803.704718750003,"end":15805.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":15804.02534375,"end":15804.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15807.24846875,"end":15810.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15810.640343750001,"end":15814.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15815.38221875,"end":15819.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15819.921593750001,"end":15826.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15826.941593750002,"end":15829.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15830.046593750001,"end":15833.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15834.29909375,"end":15843.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15843.563468750002,"end":15848.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15848.136593750001,"end":15849.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15848.74409375,"end":15863.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15864.04971875,"end":15887.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15887.539718750002,"end":15896.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15896.652218750001,"end":15897.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15897.985343750002,"end":15898.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15898.84596875,"end":15899.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15899.706593750001,"end":15903.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15904.144718750002,"end":15906.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15906.55784375,"end":15908.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15908.59971875,"end":15909.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15909.88221875,"end":15913.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15913.30784375,"end":15918.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15918.606593750003,"end":15923.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15923.601593750001,"end":15925.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15925.997843750003,"end":15930.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15930.098468750002,"end":15935.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15936.004718750002,"end":15937.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15937.624718750001,"end":15958.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15959.17409375,"end":15972.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15973.433468750001,"end":15973.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15974.20971875,"end":15976.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15976.673468750003,"end":15979.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15980.419718750003,"end":15986.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15987.08534375,"end":15988.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15988.97534375,"end":15990.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15990.308468750001,"end":16000.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16001.192843750003,"end":16005.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16005.968468750001,"end":16010.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16010.794718750003,"end":16011.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16011.75659375,"end":16013.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16013.69721875,"end":16015.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":16013.76471875,"end":16013.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16013.96721875,"end":16014.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16016.29596875,"end":16020.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16021.03784375,"end":16025.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16025.35784375,"end":16032.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16032.445343750001,"end":16047.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16048.375343750002,"end":16073.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16074.750968750002,"end":16078.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16079.391593750002,"end":16088.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16089.094718750002,"end":16096.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16096.45221875,"end":16109.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16109.766593750002,"end":16114.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16115.200343750003,"end":16116.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16117.05659375,"end":16119.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16119.28409375,"end":16120.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16121.325968750003,"end":16121.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16121.629718750002,"end":16121.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16121.91659375,"end":16121.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16121.96721875,"end":16122.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16122.01784375,"end":16122.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16122.102218750002,"end":16122.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16122.81096875,"end":16137.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16138.16721875,"end":16138.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16138.285343750002,"end":16139.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16138.302218750003,"end":16140.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16140.05721875,"end":16150.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16149.895343750002,"end":16150.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16150.03034375,"end":16150.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16150.23284375,"end":16153.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16150.249718750001,"end":16150.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16152.325343750003,"end":16152.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16153.371593750002,"end":16153.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16153.962218750003,"end":16157.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16157.894093750001,"end":16163.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16162.484093750001,"end":16162.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":16162.534718750001,"end":16163.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16165.21784375,"end":16166.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16167.27659375,"end":16169.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16178.19471875,"end":16181.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16184.67471875,"end":16189.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16190.327843750001,"end":16190.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16191.15471875,"end":16197.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":16191.880343750003,"end":16192.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16197.465968750003,"end":16198.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16198.832843750002,"end":16200.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16201.364093750002,"end":16207.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16207.962218750003,"end":16210.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16210.223468750002,"end":16212.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16213.24409375,"end":16214.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16216.19721875,"end":16219.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16220.01096875,"end":16226.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16223.504093750002,"end":16224.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16225.360343750002,"end":16226.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16226.777843750002,"end":16234.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16235.67096875,"end":16235.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16235.99159375,"end":16249.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16236.02534375,"end":16236.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16250.53784375,"end":16251.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16251.58409375,"end":16269.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16270.011593750001,"end":16274.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16274.871593750002,"end":16288.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16278.246593750002,"end":16279.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16280.828468750002,"end":16280.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16280.96346875,"end":16281.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16283.44409375,"end":16284.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16287.39284375,"end":16288.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16288.55721875,"end":16289.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16288.894718750002,"end":16289.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16289.67096875,"end":16304.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16305.499718750001,"end":16311.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16311.86159375,"end":16333.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16312.722218750001,"end":16312.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16314.359093750001,"end":16314.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16316.637218750002,"end":16316.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16318.40909375,"end":16318.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":16318.797218750002,"end":16318.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":16333.12409375,"end":16333.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16333.32659375,"end":16345.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16344.76784375,"end":16357.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16346.82659375,"end":16347.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16357.22159375,"end":16360.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16357.84596875,"end":16358.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16360.731593750003,"end":16389.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16390.44846875,"end":16398.295343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16398.98721875,"end":16399.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16400.404718750004,"end":16408.116593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16408.335968749998,"end":16415.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16416.16596875,"end":16423.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":16423.692218750002,"end":16424.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16424.012843750003,"end":16425.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16425.46409375,"end":16429.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16430.07096875,"end":16435.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16436.145968750003,"end":16441.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16442.929718749998,"end":16444.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16445.528468750003,"end":16450.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16451.08034375,"end":16454.421593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16454.607218750003,"end":16458.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16458.75846875,"end":16467.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16467.246593750002,"end":16467.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16467.263468750003,"end":16467.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16467.803468750004,"end":16475.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16475.85284375,"end":16476.257843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16477.21971875,"end":16480.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16481.25284375,"end":16482.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16482.653468750003,"end":16488.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16488.30659375,"end":16491.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16491.79971875,"end":16494.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16494.61784375,"end":16496.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16496.507843749998,"end":16496.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16497.92534375,"end":16500.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16501.013468750003,"end":16501.030343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16501.030343749997,"end":16502.076593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16502.262218750002,"end":16511.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16509.72096875,"end":16511.475968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16511.560343750003,"end":16539.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16515.914093749998,"end":16516.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16516.28534375,"end":16516.335968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16519.356593750003,"end":16519.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16531.928468750004,"end":16532.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16532.51909375,"end":16532.569718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16539.13409375,"end":16552.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16552.34721875,"end":16568.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":16557.561593749997,"end":16557.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16568.530343749997,"end":16575.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16574.419718750003,"end":16574.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16574.67284375,"end":16575.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16575.34784375,"end":16588.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16589.387843750003,"end":16589.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16590.61971875,"end":16594.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16595.02409375,"end":16598.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16598.702843749998,"end":16609.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16609.772843749997,"end":16638.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16639.523468749998,"end":16641.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16642.18971875,"end":16643.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16643.99534375,"end":16645.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16646.07096875,"end":16649.412218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16649.69909375,"end":16651.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16653.006593750004,"end":16663.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16658.11971875,"end":16658.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16663.840343750002,"end":16667.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16667.535968750002,"end":16670.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16670.202218749997,"end":16672.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16673.07096875,"end":16678.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16679.39909375,"end":16679.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16681.373468750004,"end":16695.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16697.742218749998,"end":16697.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16697.75909375,"end":16700.357843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16700.982218750003,"end":16703.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16713.250343749998,"end":16716.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16716.64221875,"end":16717.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16719.038468749997,"end":16719.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16723.42596875,"end":16739.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16739.64284375,"end":16742.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16743.03471875,"end":16744.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16744.570343749998,"end":16759.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16759.87596875,"end":16763.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16763.723468750002,"end":16765.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16766.00159375,"end":16770.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16771.28346875,"end":16774.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16774.75971875,"end":16780.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16781.00346875,"end":16797.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16798.418468750002,"end":16799.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16799.481593750003,"end":16800.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16800.949718750002,"end":16801.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16801.64159375,"end":16803.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16804.037843750004,"end":16829.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16829.333468750003,"end":16842.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16842.58034375,"end":16843.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16843.795343750004,"end":16887.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16871.92596875,"end":16872.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16887.51846875,"end":16902.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16903.34721875,"end":16943.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16918.92284375,"end":16919.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16942.78409375,"end":16943.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16943.71221875,"end":16943.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16944.23534375,"end":16951.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16951.812218749998,"end":16952.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16952.14971875,"end":16956.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16956.89159375,"end":16958.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16958.460968749998,"end":16963.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16963.624718749998,"end":16965.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16966.07159375,"end":16974.475343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16974.82971875,"end":16979.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16979.723468750002,"end":16980.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16980.145343750002,"end":16984.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16984.279718750004,"end":16996.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16987.013468750003,"end":16987.755968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16995.248468750004,"end":16998.640343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16996.12596875,"end":16996.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16997.897843749997,"end":17021.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":17010.68909375,"end":17010.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17010.975968749997,"end":17011.380968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17021.489093750002,"end":17055.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17055.72846875,"end":17074.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17074.81409375,"end":17082.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17082.171593749998,"end":17091.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17091.857843750004,"end":17094.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":17094.54096875,"end":17094.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17094.625343749998,"end":17106.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17107.21409375,"end":17107.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17107.568468750003,"end":17129.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17129.97846875,"end":17138.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17138.685968750004,"end":17141.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17141.89221875,"end":17162.952218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17163.82971875,"end":17176.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17177.684093750002,"end":17179.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17180.232218750003,"end":17180.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17181.16034375,"end":17183.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17183.202218749997,"end":17185.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17185.311593749997,"end":17186.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17186.594093749998,"end":17187.319718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17187.707843750002,"end":17207.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17207.974718750003,"end":17209.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":17209.560968750004,"end":17220.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":17219.466593750003,"end":17221.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17222.520968750003,"end":17224.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17224.950968750003,"end":17228.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18146.427218750003,"end":18148.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18150.662843750004,"end":18151.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18154.51034375,"end":18158.155343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18159.387218750002,"end":18161.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18170.62596875,"end":18174.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18182.404718750004,"end":18183.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18184.615343750003,"end":18186.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18188.429093749997,"end":18189.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18190.217843749997,"end":18190.622843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18192.225968749997,"end":18192.647843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18192.79971875,"end":18194.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18195.145343750002,"end":18196.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18196.967843749997,"end":18197.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18199.56659375,"end":18200.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18200.427218750003,"end":18201.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18200.646593750003,"end":18200.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18201.929093749997,"end":18201.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":18201.94596875,"end":18202.030343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18202.030343749997,"end":18202.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18202.06409375,"end":18202.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18202.30034375,"end":18202.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18203.599718750003,"end":18208.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18208.476593749998,"end":18212.054093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18212.00346875,"end":18212.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18212.037218750003,"end":18212.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18212.32409375,"end":18219.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18219.344093749998,"end":18223.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18223.03971875,"end":18223.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18223.242218749998,"end":18226.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18226.63409375,"end":18232.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18232.86096875,"end":18233.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18233.147843749997,"end":18235.341593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18235.375343749998,"end":18235.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18235.42596875,"end":18235.780343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18235.679093749997,"end":18237.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18237.332843750002,"end":18237.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18237.754718750002,"end":18251.710343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18251.96346875,"end":18252.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18252.756593750004,"end":18253.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18254.49471875,"end":18256.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18257.582843750002,"end":18258.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18259.000343749998,"end":18263.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18263.404718750004,"end":18267.218468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18267.505343750003,"end":18268.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18268.382843749998,"end":18268.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18268.73721875,"end":18276.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18274.82909375,"end":18275.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18276.11159375,"end":18276.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18276.482843750004,"end":18284.295968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18284.63346875,"end":18291.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18292.58159375,"end":18297.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18298.099718750003,"end":18303.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18304.866593749997,"end":18309.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18309.473468750002,"end":18313.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18314.73846875,"end":18325.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18319.04159375,"end":18319.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18322.09596875,"end":18324.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18325.622843750003,"end":18327.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18326.247218750003,"end":18326.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18326.601593749998,"end":18336.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18336.96284375,"end":18348.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18346.092218750004,"end":18350.412218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18348.35346875,"end":18349.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18351.12096875,"end":18359.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18359.94659375,"end":18362.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18362.967218750004,"end":18363.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18363.10221875,"end":18380.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18365.279093750003,"end":18366.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18379.605968750002,"end":18379.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18380.97284375,"end":18384.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18384.65159375,"end":18385.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18384.668468750002,"end":18384.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18384.989093750002,"end":18398.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18394.97909375,"end":18394.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":18394.99596875,"end":18395.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18395.029718750004,"end":18395.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18399.130343750003,"end":18399.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18399.72096875,"end":18400.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18400.007843749998,"end":18410.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18403.264718749997,"end":18403.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18403.72034375,"end":18403.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18409.42409375,"end":18409.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18410.60534375,"end":18415.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18415.482218750003,"end":18426.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18426.569093750004,"end":18430.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18426.754718750002,"end":18426.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18429.741593749997,"end":18454.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18443.93346875,"end":18445.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18451.49346875,"end":18451.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18454.328468749998,"end":18473.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18457.61909375,"end":18458.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18458.192843750003,"end":18458.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18460.99409375,"end":18461.061593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18461.061593749997,"end":18461.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18464.47034375,"end":18465.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18466.49534375,"end":18466.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18466.647218750004,"end":18466.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18466.68096875,"end":18466.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18473.160968750002,"end":18473.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18473.498468750004,"end":18499.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18487.757843749998,"end":18489.647843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18493.343468749998,"end":18493.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18499.215968750003,"end":18499.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18499.553468750004,"end":18506.303468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":18499.637843750003,"end":18499.671593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18506.387843750003,"end":18506.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18506.404718750004,"end":18507.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":18506.86034375,"end":18507.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18510.25221875,"end":18512.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18514.538468749997,"end":18516.749093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18524.15721875,"end":18543.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18543.867218749998,"end":18572.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18572.77409375,"end":18615.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18615.872843750003,"end":18652.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18653.217218750004,"end":18667.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18668.45534375,"end":18678.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18678.56346875,"end":18680.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18680.622218750003,"end":18690.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18690.69659375,"end":18697.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18697.76721875,"end":18700.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18701.05784375,"end":18705.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18705.833468750003,"end":18707.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18707.757218749997,"end":18713.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18713.865968750004,"end":18724.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18725.39159375,"end":18731.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18731.09534375,"end":18731.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18731.500343749998,"end":18739.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18740.19096875,"end":18744.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18745.05096875,"end":18748.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18748.17284375,"end":18748.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18748.560968750004,"end":18751.210343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18751.834718750004,"end":18753.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18753.75846875,"end":18761.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18761.28471875,"end":18761.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18761.419718750003,"end":18764.288468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18764.87909375,"end":18766.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18767.207843750002,"end":18771.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18771.764093750004,"end":18772.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18773.19846875,"end":18775.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18775.662218750003,"end":18778.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18779.172218749998,"end":18781.264718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18781.92284375,"end":18783.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18784.06596875,"end":18794.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18794.89971875,"end":18804.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18804.265343749998,"end":18804.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18805.294718750003,"end":18805.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18806.08784375,"end":18809.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18809.80034375,"end":18810.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18810.74534375,"end":18826.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18827.232218750003,"end":18829.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18829.72971875,"end":18834.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18834.58971875,"end":18835.163468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18836.074718750002,"end":18842.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18842.520968750003,"end":18844.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18844.562843749998,"end":18860.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18860.965343750002,"end":18867.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18867.968468749998,"end":18868.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18871.326593750004,"end":18875.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18880.945343749998,"end":18881.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18882.00846875,"end":18884.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18884.53971875,"end":18886.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18886.36221875,"end":18886.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18887.037218750003,"end":18888.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18890.327843749998,"end":18891.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18892.403468750003,"end":18893.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18895.50846875,"end":18897.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18898.39409375,"end":18899.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18899.828468749998,"end":18903.186593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18903.405968749998,"end":18909.531593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18909.953468749998,"end":18914.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18915.15096875,"end":18915.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":18915.69096875,"end":18916.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18916.43346875,"end":18917.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18917.648468749998,"end":18921.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18922.069718749997,"end":18922.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18923.04846875,"end":18923.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18924.263468750003,"end":18925.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18925.81596875,"end":18927.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18928.380968750003,"end":18934.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18935.434718750003,"end":18936.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18937.442843750003,"end":18938.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18939.72096875,"end":18941.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18941.442218750002,"end":18942.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18942.67409375,"end":18944.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18944.26034375,"end":18945.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18946.04909375,"end":18946.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18947.75346875,"end":18952.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18952.29284375,"end":18953.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18953.98034375,"end":18954.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18955.364093750002,"end":18958.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18958.148468749998,"end":18960.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18960.71346875,"end":18963.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18963.497843750003,"end":18965.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18965.43846875,"end":18970.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18971.294093750003,"end":18977.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18977.335343749997,"end":18979.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18979.664093749998,"end":18983.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18984.45659375,"end":18991.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18992.45534375,"end":18993.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18993.771593750003,"end":19003.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19003.795343750004,"end":19005.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19005.719093749998,"end":19006.849718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19007.288468749997,"end":19008.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19009.41471875,"end":19011.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19011.692843750003,"end":19013.937218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19014.37596875,"end":19015.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19015.33784375,"end":19015.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19016.58659375,"end":19017.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19017.632843749998,"end":19023.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19023.707843750002,"end":19030.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19031.200343750003,"end":19039.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19039.90784375,"end":19051.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19052.17596875,"end":19057.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19058.28471875,"end":19061.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19061.62596875,"end":19091.140343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19091.41034375,"end":19099.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19099.84784375,"end":19134.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19135.36971875,"end":19165.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19165.96409375,"end":19188.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19188.239093750002,"end":19189.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19189.55534375,"end":19225.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19225.465343750002,"end":19251.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19235.100968749997,"end":19237.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19249.664093749998,"end":19258.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19258.607843750004,"end":19259.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19259.637218750002,"end":19262.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19259.654093750003,"end":19263.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19262.03346875,"end":19264.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19263.029093750003,"end":19263.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19263.95721875,"end":19264.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19264.109093749998,"end":19264.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19265.796593749998,"end":19273.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19274.014718750004,"end":19275.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19275.34784375,"end":19276.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19276.647218750004,"end":19276.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19276.664093749998,"end":19276.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19276.832843750002,"end":19276.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19277.170343750004,"end":19277.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19277.912843750004,"end":19277.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19277.929718749998,"end":19277.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19280.106593750003,"end":19283.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19283.44784375,"end":19286.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19295.969093749998,"end":19296.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19300.137218750002,"end":19301.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19301.622218750003,"end":19308.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19309.013468750003,"end":19310.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19321.51784375,"end":19328.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19329.34784375,"end":19332.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19333.00971875,"end":19334.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19334.69721875,"end":19335.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19335.97971875,"end":19337.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19337.835968749998,"end":19338.460343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19339.000343749998,"end":19340.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19340.147843749997,"end":19347.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19347.75846875,"end":19350.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19350.171593749998,"end":19351.538468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19351.70721875,"end":19353.765968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19353.91784375,"end":19365.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19365.69659375,"end":19377.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19377.44159375,"end":19387.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19389.827843749998,"end":19404.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19396.69596875,"end":19397.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19402.39971875,"end":19403.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19404.593468749998,"end":19416.490343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19417.92471875,"end":19419.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19419.544718750003,"end":19420.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":19420.97909375,"end":19424.303468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19424.303468750004,"end":19430.226593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19430.969093749998,"end":19431.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19432.420343750004,"end":19442.224718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19442.71409375,"end":19444.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19445.920343750004,"end":19447.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19447.67534375,"end":19452.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19452.349718750003,"end":19455.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19455.960968749998,"end":19456.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19457.04096875,"end":19458.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19458.255968750003,"end":19460.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19461.090968750003,"end":19482.522218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19483.247843750003,"end":19503.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19503.092843750004,"end":19506.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19506.95721875,"end":19508.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19509.65721875,"end":19510.264718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19510.652843750002,"end":19512.677843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19512.94784375,"end":19521.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19522.56659375,"end":19524.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19524.64221875,"end":19564.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19564.973468750002,"end":19602.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19602.50346875,"end":19605.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19605.507218749997,"end":19613.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19614.18096875,"end":19621.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19620.20534375,"end":19638.413468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19625.48721875,"end":19625.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19625.537843750004,"end":19625.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19625.67284375,"end":19625.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19625.70659375,"end":19625.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19625.89221875,"end":19625.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19625.90909375,"end":19625.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19625.976593749998,"end":19626.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19632.186593750004,"end":19632.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19632.23721875,"end":19632.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19632.405968749998,"end":19632.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19632.54096875,"end":19632.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19632.591593750003,"end":19632.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19637.873468750004,"end":19653.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19650.78284375,"end":19653.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19653.12846875,"end":19657.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19657.617218749998,"end":19659.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19659.87846875,"end":19665.312218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19663.844093749998,"end":19677.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19677.91784375,"end":19681.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19681.81596875,"end":19691.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19691.58659375,"end":19695.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19696.109093749998,"end":19701.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19700.17596875,"end":19707.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19704.56346875,"end":19706.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19706.14971875,"end":19706.217218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19713.67596875,"end":19728.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19729.437218749998,"end":19729.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19729.55534375,"end":19730.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19730.365343750003,"end":19730.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19730.483468750004,"end":19730.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19730.53409375,"end":19748.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19739.545343750004,"end":19739.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19748.168468750002,"end":19749.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19749.990968750004,"end":19755.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19755.036593750003,"end":19756.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19757.11221875,"end":19780.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19781.14221875,"end":19782.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19783.335968749998,"end":19785.647843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19783.35284375,"end":19787.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19785.66471875,"end":19785.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19786.035968750002,"end":19788.702218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19789.343468749998,"end":19801.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":19789.410968750002,"end":19789.427843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19789.427843750003,"end":19789.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19789.78221875,"end":19789.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":19793.106593750003,"end":19793.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19793.123468750004,"end":19793.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19793.967218750004,"end":19795.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":19795.06409375,"end":19795.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19795.80659375,"end":19795.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":19795.975343750004,"end":19796.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19796.02596875,"end":19796.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19800.615968750004,"end":19801.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19801.560968750004,"end":19815.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19810.57221875,"end":19810.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19810.58909375,"end":19811.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19813.01909375,"end":19814.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19815.97221875,"end":19816.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19816.731593750003,"end":19819.718468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19816.748468750004,"end":19817.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19818.233468750004,"end":19824.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19824.83159375,"end":19834.045343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19824.882218749997,"end":19827.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19827.97034375,"end":19828.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19828.375343749998,"end":19829.084093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19829.084093750003,"end":19829.522843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19834.484093749998,"end":19838.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19838.31471875,"end":19843.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19839.428468750004,"end":19852.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19847.68034375,"end":19848.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19850.34659375,"end":19893.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19856.320343749998,"end":19856.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19856.387843750003,"end":19856.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19875.32159375,"end":19876.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19876.975343750004,"end":19877.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19893.023468749998,"end":19908.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19908.919718750003,"end":19924.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":19915.33221875,"end":19916.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19922.031593749998,"end":19924.427843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19924.022843749997,"end":19924.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19924.61346875,"end":19924.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19924.61346875,"end":19951.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19947.27659375,"end":19947.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19947.293468750002,"end":19947.647843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19947.647843749997,"end":19947.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":19947.968468749998,"end":19948.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19948.035968750002,"end":19950.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19951.967843750004,"end":19954.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19954.24596875,"end":19966.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19963.81409375,"end":19988.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19966.90221875,"end":19969.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19984.536593750003,"end":19986.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19988.114093750002,"end":19993.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":19993.294718750003,"end":19993.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19994.172218749998,"end":20006.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20002.12034375,"end":20003.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20006.98034375,"end":20007.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20007.04784375,"end":20007.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20007.40221875,"end":20015.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20010.473468750002,"end":20016.092843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20015.856593750003,"end":20026.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20024.02409375,"end":20038.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":20032.57971875,"end":20032.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20032.59659375,"end":20032.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20032.950968750003,"end":20032.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20032.967843750004,"end":20033.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":20033.01846875,"end":20033.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20039.56596875,"end":20042.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20042.654093750003,"end":20043.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20045.708468750003,"end":20047.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20047.24409375,"end":20052.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20049.522218750004,"end":20052.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20055.293468750002,"end":20059.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20056.052843750003,"end":20060.710343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20061.030968749998,"end":20067.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20066.397218750004,"end":20070.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20070.075968750003,"end":20072.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20071.020968750003,"end":20071.577843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20071.662218750003,"end":20086.427843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20085.685343750003,"end":20092.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20092.890968749998,"end":20146.553468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20149.084718750004,"end":20153.084093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20153.45534375,"end":20155.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20154.974093750003,"end":20161.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20161.03221875,"end":20163.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20164.01909375,"end":20165.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20166.34784375,"end":20168.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20168.997218750003,"end":20171.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20172.169718750003,"end":20175.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20175.51096875,"end":20175.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20175.89909375,"end":20177.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20178.177218750003,"end":20183.594093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20199.709718750004,"end":20203.101593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20203.185968750004,"end":20209.952843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20210.72909375,"end":20212.264718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20222.153468750003,"end":20223.014093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20223.57096875,"end":20226.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20226.74346875,"end":20227.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20227.51971875,"end":20228.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20228.380343750003,"end":20229.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20230.43909375,"end":20232.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20232.700343750003,"end":20237.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20239.163468749997,"end":20242.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20243.871593750002,"end":20245.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20246.80784375,"end":20247.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20248.27596875,"end":20252.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20252.882843749998,"end":20260.257218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20262.754718750002,"end":20264.155343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20265.842843750004,"end":20266.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20267.108468750004,"end":20267.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20268.239093750002,"end":20270.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20270.584718750004,"end":20275.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20276.153468750003,"end":20284.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20284.911593750003,"end":20287.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20288.33721875,"end":20292.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20292.89346875,"end":20295.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20295.239093750002,"end":20300.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":20300.031593749998,"end":20306.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20306.41034375,"end":20307.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":20307.32159375,"end":20307.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20307.726593749998,"end":20307.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":20307.76034375,"end":20307.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20307.94596875,"end":20307.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":20307.96284375,"end":20308.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":20308.570343749998,"end":20309.717843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20309.312843749998,"end":20311.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20312.249093750004,"end":20315.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20317.46346875,"end":20319.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20319.640343749998,"end":20320.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20320.01159375,"end":20331.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20322.171593749998,"end":20322.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20332.22909375,"end":20332.499093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20332.24596875,"end":20332.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20332.262843750003,"end":20332.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20332.65096875,"end":20334.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20332.684718750003,"end":20332.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20334.186593750004,"end":20334.507218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20334.33846875,"end":20335.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20336.059718750003,"end":20345.054093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20345.07096875,"end":20370.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20359.364093750002,"end":20359.397843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20359.397843749997,"end":20359.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20359.85346875,"end":20359.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20370.95721875,"end":20387.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20387.27534375,"end":20389.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20389.78971875,"end":20391.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20392.692218750002,"end":20395.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20396.05034375,"end":20398.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20398.750343749998,"end":20401.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20402.310968750004,"end":20402.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20403.137843750003,"end":20404.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20406.66471875,"end":20408.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20408.92596875,"end":20411.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20411.76096875,"end":20412.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20412.452843749998,"end":20414.140343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20414.83221875,"end":20417.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20417.97096875,"end":20417.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20418.443468750003,"end":20426.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20427.387218750002,"end":20429.530343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20429.834093750003,"end":20437.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20437.950968750003,"end":20443.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20443.78971875,"end":20449.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20449.61159375,"end":20474.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20474.772218750004,"end":20481.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20482.11284375,"end":20484.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20484.61034375,"end":20487.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20487.715343750002,"end":20491.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20491.88346875,"end":20496.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20497.62096875,"end":20498.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20498.903468750003,"end":20501.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20500.11846875,"end":20500.304093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20500.304093749997,"end":20500.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20500.55721875,"end":20500.624718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20500.624718749998,"end":20500.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20501.09721875,"end":20502.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20502.278468750003,"end":20515.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20515.12034375,"end":20518.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20516.47034375,"end":20516.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20517.162218750003,"end":20527.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20526.780968749998,"end":20528.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20528.130968750003,"end":20533.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20531.607218750003,"end":20531.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20533.412843750004,"end":20550.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20537.496593750002,"end":20538.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20541.36096875,"end":20541.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20543.132843749998,"end":20546.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20548.85346875,"end":20552.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20552.920343750004,"end":20562.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20559.61971875,"end":20567.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20563.382843749998,"end":20563.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20568.327218750004,"end":20572.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20572.664093749998,"end":20575.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20575.56659375,"end":20577.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20577.67596875,"end":20579.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20580.139718750004,"end":20592.677843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20584.91534375,"end":20585.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20585.03346875,"end":20585.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20585.843468749998,"end":20585.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20590.85534375,"end":20591.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20591.074718750002,"end":20591.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20592.677843750003,"end":20593.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20593.47096875,"end":20595.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20595.66471875,"end":20598.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20599.59659375,"end":20601.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20601.975968749997,"end":20604.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20604.10221875,"end":20606.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20607.122843750003,"end":20609.670968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20610.00846875,"end":20613.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20613.11346875,"end":20615.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20616.06659375,"end":20616.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20617.01159375,"end":20617.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20618.310968750004,"end":20619.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20620.200968750003,"end":20623.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20623.187843749998,"end":20653.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20633.32971875,"end":20633.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20636.147843749997,"end":20636.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20640.61971875,"end":20640.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20640.63659375,"end":20640.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20640.670343750004,"end":20640.687218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20640.687218749998,"end":20640.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20640.754718750002,"end":20640.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20653.208468750003,"end":20653.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20653.88346875,"end":20657.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20657.81534375,"end":20662.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20661.966593750003,"end":20662.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20663.147843749997,"end":20671.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20671.92284375,"end":20683.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20680.444718749997,"end":20684.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20684.309093750002,"end":20694.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20685.287843750004,"end":20685.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20695.210343749997,"end":20696.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20697.16784375,"end":20707.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20707.07346875,"end":20707.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20707.647218750004,"end":20716.624718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20711.05596875,"end":20711.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20716.506593750004,"end":20716.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20718.56534375,"end":20721.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20718.734093749998,"end":20719.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":20720.65784375,"end":20722.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20726.26034375,"end":20729.280968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20729.466593750003,"end":20732.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20736.82409375,"end":20736.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20736.840968750003,"end":20739.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20739.96284375,"end":20740.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20740.28346875,"end":20743.725968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20743.202843749998,"end":20743.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20743.97909375,"end":20744.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20745.56534375,"end":20745.936593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20746.155968749998,"end":20746.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20747.13471875,"end":20770.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20749.02471875,"end":20749.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20750.00346875,"end":20750.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20752.686593750004,"end":20753.108468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20757.25971875,"end":20757.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20757.27659375,"end":20757.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":20757.310343750003,"end":20757.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20771.114093750002,"end":20792.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20777.560343750003,"end":20777.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20790.199718750002,"end":20818.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20806.669718750003,"end":20806.686593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20806.686593750004,"end":20806.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20806.703468749998,"end":20806.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20806.72034375,"end":20806.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20806.95659375,"end":20807.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20817.80721875,"end":20825.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20819.022218750004,"end":20822.194718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20825.232218750003,"end":20834.327843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20832.79221875,"end":20848.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20835.593468749998,"end":20835.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":20839.30596875,"end":20839.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20841.263468750003,"end":20841.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20843.069093750004,"end":20846.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20848.469093749998,"end":20848.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20848.958468750003,"end":20849.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20849.414093749998,"end":20850.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20850.105968750002,"end":20851.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20850.949718750002,"end":20869.765343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20856.72096875,"end":20857.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20857.075343750003,"end":20857.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20859.724718750003,"end":20859.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20859.97784375,"end":20860.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20869.765343749998,"end":20870.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20870.052218750003,"end":20871.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20870.069093750004,"end":20870.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20872.85346875,"end":20873.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20873.91659375,"end":20873.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20873.984093749998,"end":20874.490343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20874.490343750003,"end":20874.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20874.64221875,"end":20880.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20874.692843750003,"end":20875.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20882.084093750003,"end":20882.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20882.97846875,"end":20890.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20890.69034375,"end":20893.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20895.19596875,"end":20895.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20895.904718750004,"end":20906.249093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20900.59596875,"end":20900.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20905.99596875,"end":20916.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20906.58659375,"end":20906.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20916.154718750004,"end":20916.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20916.340343750002,"end":20921.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20921.453468749998,"end":20921.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20921.58846875,"end":20921.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20921.622218750003,"end":20928.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20928.287843750004,"end":20928.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20928.64221875,"end":20932.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20932.405343750004,"end":20932.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20932.607843750004,"end":20971.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20947.592843750004,"end":20948.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20971.639718750004,"end":20992.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20993.459093750003,"end":20999.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20999.97284375,"end":21001.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":21001.575968750003,"end":21001.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21001.66034375,"end":21001.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":21001.96409375,"end":21019.092218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21003.95534375,"end":21004.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21019.092218750004,"end":21026.264093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":21019.78409375,"end":21020.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":21025.538468749997,"end":21026.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21026.601593749998,"end":21027.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21031.79909375,"end":21033.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21034.094093749998,"end":21034.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21035.123468750004,"end":21040.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21040.810343750003,"end":21043.257218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21054.14159375,"end":21056.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21056.841593750003,"end":21057.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21062.41034375,"end":21063.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21063.67596875,"end":21069.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21070.49346875,"end":21072.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21072.974093750003,"end":21073.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21073.598468750002,"end":21081.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21082.20471875,"end":21100.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21100.48034375,"end":21106.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21106.217843750004,"end":21110.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21110.92596875,"end":21117.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21117.94596875,"end":21122.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21122.451593750004,"end":21123.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21123.717218750004,"end":21126.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21127.12596875,"end":21127.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21127.96971875,"end":21136.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21136.035968750002,"end":21153.889718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21138.567218750002,"end":21139.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21144.895343750002,"end":21145.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21151.746593750002,"end":21161.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21160.015343749998,"end":21160.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21161.027843750002,"end":21165.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21161.41596875,"end":21161.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21165.22971875,"end":21167.811593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21168.60471875,"end":21177.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21178.49346875,"end":21179.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21179.01659375,"end":21179.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21179.03346875,"end":21179.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21179.219093749998,"end":21179.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21179.97846875,"end":21181.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21180.045968750004,"end":21180.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21180.11346875,"end":21181.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21182.22284375,"end":21186.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21186.72846875,"end":21187.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21187.03221875,"end":21200.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21200.616593749997,"end":21201.257843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21201.47721875,"end":21203.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21204.210968749998,"end":21208.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21208.530968749998,"end":21211.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21209.475968749997,"end":21213.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21214.13346875,"end":21216.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21216.445343749998,"end":21218.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21216.529718750004,"end":21222.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21219.22971875,"end":21219.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21220.022843749997,"end":21220.343468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21223.56659375,"end":21224.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21225.068468750003,"end":21225.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21225.97971875,"end":21225.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21227.076593750004,"end":21227.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21227.22846875,"end":21238.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21227.32971875,"end":21227.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21227.397218750004,"end":21229.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21229.709093750003,"end":21229.725968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21234.029093750003,"end":21234.045968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21234.147218750004,"end":21257.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21257.83971875,"end":21291.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21291.825968750003,"end":21295.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21295.35284375,"end":21295.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21295.67346875,"end":21295.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21295.740968750004,"end":21295.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21295.97721875,"end":21300.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21300.51659375,"end":21362.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21300.53346875,"end":21301.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21362.819093750004,"end":21365.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21366.44721875,"end":21368.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21369.38346875,"end":21372.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21373.39971875,"end":21373.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21374.429093749997,"end":21374.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21375.61034375,"end":21380.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21380.58846875,"end":21387.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21388.418468750002,"end":21391.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21391.202843749998,"end":21448.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21448.544093750003,"end":21450.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21452.999093750004,"end":21457.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21457.926593750002,"end":21461.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21463.88346875,"end":21467.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21468.692843750003,"end":21471.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21472.55721875,"end":21472.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21474.12659375,"end":21476.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21478.14284375,"end":21483.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21483.96471875,"end":21484.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21486.47909375,"end":21490.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21491.474093750003,"end":21495.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21496.469093749998,"end":21499.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21500.974718750003,"end":21501.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21502.459718750004,"end":21506.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21507.48846875,"end":21508.990343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21509.78346875,"end":21514.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21515.453468749998,"end":21516.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21516.83721875,"end":21519.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21521.19096875,"end":21524.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21525.39284375,"end":21526.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21526.827218750004,"end":21529.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21532.12596875,"end":21534.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21534.58971875,"end":21540.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21540.614093750002,"end":21541.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21545.406593749998,"end":21546.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21546.30096875,"end":21574.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21574.73534375,"end":21575.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21575.562218749998,"end":21589.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21591.070343749998,"end":21592.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21594.225968749997,"end":21606.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21607.21971875,"end":21610.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21610.84784375,"end":21611.202218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21611.927843750003,"end":21619.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21619.437218749998,"end":21631.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21632.076593750004,"end":21633.578468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21634.11846875,"end":21635.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21636.497843750003,"end":21649.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21646.943468750003,"end":21674.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21650.08221875,"end":21650.436593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21650.48721875,"end":21650.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21674.09534375,"end":21674.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21674.382218749997,"end":21675.546593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21674.449718750002,"end":21674.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21676.12034375,"end":21687.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21687.578468749998,"end":21689.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21689.73846875,"end":21699.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21699.22221875,"end":21704.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21700.28534375,"end":21701.280968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21702.445343749998,"end":21703.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21705.162218750003,"end":21710.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21711.304718749998,"end":21723.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21724.09596875,"end":21732.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21732.02721875,"end":21732.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21733.07346875,"end":21750.015968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21750.117218749998,"end":21752.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21751.51784375,"end":21759.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21759.364718750003,"end":21760.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21759.719093749998,"end":21760.866593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21761.45721875,"end":21765.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21765.692843750003,"end":21765.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21765.709718750004,"end":21766.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21765.929093749997,"end":21769.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21769.523468749998,"end":21774.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21773.590343750002,"end":21774.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21774.70409375,"end":21797.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21794.734718749998,"end":21794.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21794.835968749998,"end":21794.937218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21794.937218749998,"end":21794.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21798.04221875,"end":21801.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21800.79284375,"end":21803.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21804.06659375,"end":21811.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21811.72784375,"end":21816.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21816.89159375,"end":21817.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21816.959093750003,"end":21819.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21819.11909375,"end":21820.992218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21821.177843750003,"end":21823.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21824.147843749997,"end":21839.875343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21841.124093750004,"end":21841.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21841.39409375,"end":21842.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21843.48659375,"end":21843.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21843.554093749997,"end":21846.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21848.262218750002,"end":21849.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21850.000343749998,"end":21850.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21850.03409375,"end":21851.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21850.911593750003,"end":21857.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21856.615343750003,"end":21861.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21861.458468750003,"end":21862.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21862.36971875,"end":21885.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21887.091593750003,"end":21887.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21888.070343749998,"end":21891.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21892.00221875,"end":21892.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21892.694093750004,"end":21893.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21893.92596875,"end":21900.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21894.702218750004,"end":21895.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21898.499093750004,"end":21898.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21900.912218750003,"end":21902.717843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21900.97971875,"end":21901.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21902.97096875,"end":21914.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21903.105968750002,"end":21903.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21903.983468750004,"end":21904.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21908.219093749998,"end":21908.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21909.31596875,"end":21910.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21913.31534375,"end":21915.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21915.239093750002,"end":21923.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21915.30659375,"end":21916.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21923.676593750002,"end":21926.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21927.203468749998,"end":21929.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21929.616593749997,"end":21930.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21931.101593749998,"end":21934.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21934.544093750003,"end":21935.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21935.87721875,"end":21936.990968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21937.497218750003,"end":21939.201593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21939.55596875,"end":21945.647843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21939.707843750002,"end":21940.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21940.95659375,"end":21944.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21946.32284375,"end":21948.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21949.36034375,"end":21956.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21952.887218750002,"end":21956.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21957.139718750004,"end":21960.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21961.442843750003,"end":21962.219093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21962.320343749998,"end":21966.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21966.67409375,"end":21967.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21966.97784375,"end":21968.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21967.31534375,"end":21967.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21967.43346875,"end":21967.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21969.559718750003,"end":21976.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21976.03971875,"end":21977.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21977.153468750003,"end":21981.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21978.132218749997,"end":21978.773468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":21981.35534375,"end":21981.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":21981.42284375,"end":21983.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21982.739093750002,"end":21994.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21994.804718749998,"end":21996.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21996.239093750002,"end":22002.803468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22002.904718750004,"end":22007.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":22004.10284375,"end":22005.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":22005.942218750002,"end":22007.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22007.05596875,"end":22007.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22007.81534375,"end":22007.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":22007.83221875,"end":22008.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22011.47721875,"end":22012.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22013.957843750002,"end":22017.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22023.914093749998,"end":22032.233468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22033.11096875,"end":22038.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22039.43909375,"end":22042.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22044.164093749998,"end":22046.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22046.762843750003,"end":22054.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22055.26784375,"end":22062.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22064.24534375,"end":22068.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22070.084093750003,"end":22074.23534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":284.036,"end":286.254,"text":"測試"},{"start":733.988,"end":746.41,"text":"議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":774.592,"end":775.485,"text":"本集完"},{"start":1433.439,"end":1433.587,"text":"本集完"},{"start":1512.824,"end":1514.377,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1573.131,"end":1590.536,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1605.128,"end":1605.538,"text":"﹏"},{"start":1704.804,"end":1705.184,"text":"好,我們現在開始開會"},{"start":1733.983,"end":1761.71,"text":"大家不用緊張啦今天的會我跟大家報告因為這個是跨好多個部份然後我們提案人吳春城委員他提這個案事實上我看連署的人有民進黨的人有國民黨都有他們民眾黨所以在委員的部分應該是還好啦現在就看主管機關他們的態度是怎麼樣那今天昨天晚上我們柯總召也有跟我"},{"start":1762.841,"end":1764.782,"text":"今天不會主條討論所以大家可以在你的時間好好的發表"},{"start":1780.421,"end":1795.61,"text":"我們已經法定人數到了本日的議程為審查吳春城等42人擬具《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》現在我介紹在場的委員"},{"start":1846.282,"end":1857.573,"text":"來,我們登記程序花園有4位委員齁,那我們第一個請黃秀芳委員來程序花園,時間比較長啦齁兩分鐘或三分鐘就好"},{"start":1861.332,"end":1879.742,"text":"謝謝主席。那我們今天吳委員所提的這個《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》。那我們知道這個如果未來組織單位是行政院的話那我們今天在場就只有這個我們的勞動部然後還有衛福部"},{"start":1881.643,"end":1905.755,"text":"還有國發會嘛那如果是這樣的話應該是要跨部會的不論是這個農業部也好或者是這個經濟部教育部可能要好幾個單位一起開啦那我是認為就是說就這個壯世代的這個定義其實也不是那麼明確那目前我們在勞動部也好或者是在衛福部都有針對這個中高齡"},{"start":1907.456,"end":1907.616,"text":"稍後"},{"start":1935.936,"end":1938.682,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1942.421,"end":1946.824,"text":"我們今天還是到底巡打,巡打完我們找時間來辦很正式的公聽會好不好"},{"start":1972.981,"end":1973.162,"text":"秀穎委員"},{"start":2003.822,"end":2021.049,"text":"謝謝主席我是要想說這個我們今天馬上就要處理要來對於吳春城委員的提案來做詢答跟處理那剛剛感謝主席說今天只詢答不處理其實對於什麼叫壯世代這件事情"},{"start":2021.809,"end":2049.686,"text":"我認為還是有很多要掀起討論的地方剛剛主席也講到這個跨了很多個部會這個全世界應該也還沒有這個名詞所以吳春城委員創了這個壯世代那如果依照您的定義我很快就會變成壯世代可是這個壯世代的上限是到哪裡不知道所以就像剛剛秀芳委員在請教的比如說我到了80歲我還算不算壯世代"},{"start":2050.626,"end":2070.632,"text":"那如果80歲以上還算壯世代的話那我們可能所有國家的其他的法令都必須要做一併的修改所謂的中高齡跟高齡等等所有的或者是什麼老人福利法等等相關的照顧法案這個可能都要一併去修改甚至連壯世代的定義"},{"start":2071.832,"end":2089.126,"text":"都要把它做一個很明確的規範但是在這些東西都還沒有之前貿然的現在就要去做法令的推動我覺得有點太快所以其實我們是希望能夠先召開公聽會先聽一下各界專家學者的意見"},{"start":2090.247,"end":2114.411,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":2114.491,"end":2114.651,"text":"以上,謝謝"},{"start":2133.4,"end":2155.695,"text":"我剛剛已經有宣誓過就是我們今天是所有委員大家把你的意見都提出來今天是大體審查今天不處理條文所以大家放心那至於要辦公聽會或辦什麼研討會等等我們都可以來辦那接續我們請林業勤委員我們那個"},{"start":2158.278,"end":2164.32,"text":"陳秀岸的截止了大家談完就 林慧琴委員請中世代這個說法在臺灣我一直認為是一個倡議口號當然吳委員吳春城委員一再告訴本席說我們要改變社會對中高齡跟高齡者的看法要倡議促進長輩們消費把資源"},{"start":2187.268,"end":2187.388,"text":"：審查委員"},{"start":2208.033,"end":2208.253,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":2229.97,"end":2230.431,"text":"則不予審查委員"},{"start":2248.268,"end":2270.741,"text":"那有一億生活寬裕的人剩下四分之一所以當下對長輩最直接的協助應該是接受WHO2002年的活力老化的倡議秉持這健康參與安全的三大原則推動活力老化而不是今天就馬上要去入法而且目前看起來有跟八部法律事實上是"},{"start":2271.221,"end":2271.521,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":2293.061,"end":2293.822,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":2326.958,"end":2344.98,"text":"感謝主席主席還有各位同仁我是王正旭針對今天衛房委員會所排審的壯世代政策與產業發展促進法其實我也是共同提案人那時候委員說他把他的書"},{"start":2346.081,"end":2368.373,"text":"有介紹給我了解然後看完以後也非常感佩吳委員真的非常用心的在推這個壯世代未來可以替國家替社會做哪一些更有貢獻的事情那其實這個理念是非常非常的讓我受到感佩那我也知道如果有壯世代"},{"start":2369.373,"end":2396.571,"text":"類似這樣55歲以上的高齡、中高齡者能夠參與社會我相信這個對於年輕的下一代如果能夠有共榮、共好的效應應該是非常值得讓我們來學習的所以我在這邊有必要把對這部法案的基本立場再重新講清楚不過我相信剛剛我們很多的委員都有提議也麻煩召委今天能夠針對"},{"start":2397.756,"end":2423.251,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2423.772,"end":2432.787,"text":"謝謝王委員接下來我們請林淑芬委員發言林淑芬委員發言後就我們進入請程序啦謝謝"},{"start":2437.783,"end":2454.835,"text":"各位大家好我覺得這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法的草案我們必須要肯定吳委員的這個有心裡面每一條草案的條文的內容我想站在立委的立場我們大概都覺得這是本來就是應該這麼做的"},{"start":2456.596,"end":2470.488,"text":"但唯一我們不能同意的就是說因為整個草案啊剛才已經很多人講過第一個壯世代的定義在全世界都還沒有定義出來所以壯世代指涉的是什麼我們正在講絕對不是戰後嬰兒草老化到現在壯世代從55歲開始是58年次了58年次怎麼會是戰後嬰兒草絕對不是不只是"},{"start":2484.139,"end":2488.321,"text":"再來就是說定義不明以外我們知道這個裡面我很不清楚為什麼程序委員會還有院會的議讀會把它交付到衛環委員會來因為在這裡草案的第一條開宗明義就是講為了使國家政策制定跟產業發展能夠因應人口的變化和社會市場的結構然後去降低世代間的年輕世代的負擔這是第一條"},{"start":2511.853,"end":2512.135,"text":"然後第3條呢開州民意也講"},{"start":2518.223,"end":2542.204,"text":"這個要設辦公室以外他的組織要怎麼做以外最核心是壯世代政策辦公室每年應制定國家年度的壯世代政策跟產業發展計畫各位還是產業發展計畫而最後一項寫他那個要推動的事務包括包含但不限包含但不限就全部了但是他開宗明義就講吳委員你講了說"},{"start":2544.526,"end":2571.648,"text":"包含但不限於壯世代的經濟發展、金融生態、科技發展、學術及產業研究、就業環境、健康生活、教育體制、數位落差、消費文化的形塑等等。這裡面我想最核心最重要的就預算面、政策面還有這個重點第一個就是經濟發展跟金融生態跟科技發展等等"},{"start":2572.829,"end":2590.563,"text":"總的來自整部法看起來我們就覺得壯世代作為一個生產力有生產者有生產力作為一個消費者有消費力在這種狀況裡面國家要如何好好的運用可是在我們未完委員會我們談的就是只有可能中高齡就業這樣的一個議題而已在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":2594.366,"end":2594.406,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":2610.856,"end":2614.359,"text":"法案放到衛黃委員會來主審所以我們還是認為說應該不是我們聯席經濟委員會而是應該經濟委員會主審我們去聯審才是然後呢我們在這裡必須要再講"},{"start":2626.01,"end":2646.522,"text":"因為定義不明所以我們看起來這裡面包含的內容包括我剛剛已經講過策略型產業的支持包括資源的分配包括補助而這樣的方向你定義不明裡面我覺得就會有不公平的這個議題會跑出來比如說比如說這裡講說比如說第"},{"start":2653.069,"end":2659.733,"text":"第13條壯世代的農民你怎麼樣要對待什麼政策可是對我們來講雖然我還不在吳委員的壯世代定義裡面可是我覺得55歲以上是要有這樣的特別的照顧那我50歲了難道不應該嗎我45歲了難道不應該嗎然後呢為什麼是壯世代的農民那為什麼不是壯世代的單身要怎麼照顧他的生產力消費力更有"},{"start":2684.09,"end":2708.968,"text":"綜世代的單親要怎麼樣的來給予這個策略型的支持但是壯世代的女性壯世代的弱勢如果要這樣子切割的話每一個領域每一種選項我們都可以切割出非常多所以在這種狀況裡面喔壯世代就已經很難區隔了可是為什麼壯世代農民壯世代什麼為什麼壯世代女性沒有壯世代單身沒有等等"},{"start":2709.748,"end":2735.954,"text":"在這種狀況裡面你看我們還是回到我剛剛講的第4條剛剛講第一條第三條開宗明義宣誓整個法的方向是什麼要作為是什麼第4條就開始講這個輔導產業金融制度要怎麼進來新創跟產業鏈要怎麼給它輔導起來新創產業鏈經濟委員會第5條你的要鼓勵壯世代投資嗎那你的金融行動方案是什麼"},{"start":2738.575,"end":2754.541,"text":"經濟金融產業也不是我們委員會第6條你要去調查他的需求這個平常就有在調查了但是呢這個跟中高齡就業服務法還有懶人福利法其實也有重疊之處第7條講說每一個壯世代都要給他一個適性就業我們對學生念書叫適性學習現在對中高齡的壯世代要叫他們"},{"start":2762.324,"end":2762.344,"text":"第8條"},{"start":2785.299,"end":2790.124,"text":"要給他醫療的資源進來心理衛生的資源第9條要跟學校教育合作那第10條要對數位平權要推動這個也不需要壯世代這政府本來就現在就必須要急趕直追趕快做的第11條要建立壯世代的新形象我覺得利益也是良善的但是呢第12條講發展觀光"},{"start":2810.603,"end":2817.447,"text":"可是45以上或者是觀觀業者可以切割說我45歲專為否45歲以上55歲以上45歲以下就不要嗎觀觀有辦法這樣子切割或是我重點就放在這裡那為什麼55歲以上我45歲不可以這樣子所以總的來說就是我們講說其實在這裡面有重點就是"},{"start":2834.235,"end":2839.142,"text":"策略型產業、策略型經濟發展的支持牽扯到經濟金融產業部門居多資源分配的議題很多所以壯世代從哪裡切下去"},{"start":2850.659,"end":2863.861,"text":"這個都是一大問題那正因為是這樣子有分配的公平性的問題所以我們還是在這裡希望說一定要召開公聽會以外我個人是希望應該是要由經濟委員會主審而我們衛環委員會去聯席而不是站在這裡我們去討論生產者消費者產業應該怎麼輔導這個是捨本逐末謝謝"},{"start":2880.656,"end":2903.392,"text":"謝謝林委員我在這邊跟大家報告一次昨天又跟柯總召也談過就是說我們今天是讓大家暢所欲言然後勞動部今天當主責單位然後讓只有大體行打我們不審查主條絕對不審查辦公聽會辦什麼會我們都可以來討論所以大家放心"},{"start":2910.322,"end":2939.085,"text":"就照這個流程就走完我們再來說嘛我們趕快來辦啦事實上吳春城他已經辦了幾次你辦幾次公聽在立法院辦的個人怎麼可以代表立法院在立法院辦的那個個人辦那不代表立法院啦好在經濟委員會主審啦經濟委員會我們在這裡有辦法決定產業要怎麼輔導是這種這是跟勞動部管理比較親啦"},{"start":2940.646,"end":2943.307,"text":"陳昭芝委員王秀芳委員林業勤委員王振旭委員吳春城委員林淑芬委員陳慶威委員"},{"start":2970.769,"end":2988.923,"text":"蔡議員,現在是主席嗎?還有嗎?黃秀邦有,黃秀邦剛剛介紹了。那我們介紹在場的行政官員行政院內政衛福勞動處處長蘇永富"},{"start":2992.844,"end":3000.845,"text":"我們勞動部部長何佩珊他的責任大我們勞動力發展署署長蔡孟良勞工保險局局長白立真勞動保險司司長陳美女勞動福祉退休司司長謝倩倩"},{"start":3023.584,"end":3026.627,"text":"勞動條件就業平等司司長黃維琛勞動關係司副司長黃齊亞衛生福利部政事呂健德護理及健康照護司副司長蔡盈盈長期照護司專門委員王林怡"},{"start":3052.748,"end":3076.079,"text":"心理健康師專門委員 洪家基口腔健康師檢證記證 陳少卿社家署副署長 詹美美國健署組長 李嘉惠健康保險局副組長 林宥鈞經濟部常務次長 連錦章"},{"start":3086.801,"end":3095.289,"text":"產業發展署主任秘書林德森中小及新創企業署主任秘書謝榮峰商業發展署組長翁敬庭國際貿易署檢證秘書簡顯英"},{"start":3113.498,"end":3134.77,"text":"產業技術師科長何彥慶金融監督管理委員會金管會法律事務處處長林志憲教育部終身教育師師長梁學正文化部綜合規劃師副師長陳怡靜數位發展部數位發展產業署副署長陳惠敏"},{"start":3145.399,"end":3151.363,"text":"市委政府司科長陳菊穗國家發展委員會副主委彭麗佩社會發展處副處長簡盈琳"},{"start":3164.301,"end":3170.647,"text":"賴銀林人力發展署副署長鄭家青國土區域離島發展署檢任計政曾詠怡"},{"start":3188.855,"end":3195.201,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會生命科學研究發展處處長楊台鴻農業部文憑輔導師師長陳俊遠農村發展及水土保持署檢任政工程師王志偉"},{"start":3213.707,"end":3216.73,"text":"交通部觀光署副署長 周廷章"},{"start":3237.45,"end":3263.968,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝在座各位委員各位行政部門官員和部長那謝謝大家的關注今天是一個非常重要的日子是臺灣的一個關鍵的日子我知道大家剛才提出了種種的一些問題就是因為這麼多的困難所以我們先今天需要在這裡那上個禮拜一次國發會"},{"start":3265.729,"end":3291.071,"text":"公布了臺灣人口最新的推估數字在這個數字裡面看到臺灣在未來50年會減少1000萬人然後我們的少子化提早了15年各項的指標加速的惡化臺灣已經成為全世界老化跟少子化速度最快的國家"},{"start":3292.552,"end":3308.833,"text":"所以也不只是說世界跟在世界後面走我們要走在世界的前面所以這是一個很關鍵的一個思維的大翻轉的關鍵時刻如果我們繼續用過去的一個思維我們是沒辦法化解這個危機的"},{"start":3309.514,"end":3337.325,"text":"所以大家看到這個數字1970年代的人口是一個金字塔當時高齡者只占人口2.9%到了2040年的人口推估圖是這樣子65歲上占人口30.1%我們現在很多是停留在1970年代把老人當作少數的一個思維在規劃制度那現在已經迎向這裡了所以我們的確是腦筋要翻過來"},{"start":3339.367,"end":3365.248,"text":"所以這個未來臺灣30年最重要的問題就是高齡化與少子化貫穿了整個政府所有的部會所有的行政那我知道當然最近這個這個因為總預算的問題朝野有些關係不太好不過希望大家這個跨越黨派因為臺灣是要往前走的那其實這個也不是也不是一個"},{"start":3367.414,"end":3391.049,"text":"這個也不是一個什麼創意 這個只是30年前日本已經在做了 30年前1995年日本已經制定了高齡社會對策基本法 設立了基本會議 是由內閣、中壢大臣擔任召集人 跨部會的會議 我們已經延後了30年了 然後台灣現在在此時此地 我們難道還不要翻新嗎"},{"start":3392.988,"end":3420.687,"text":"這個法其實很簡單一個促進法的一個基本上他是一個循環循環的模式因為對面面對未來這麼龐大的高齡化少子化我們不可能都用攝服用補助用什麼樣測試我們要產生一個循環那如何啟動這些龐大的未來佔主力的高齡人口讓他不要倒下來讓他成為生產力消費力才能夠幫助下一代"},{"start":3422.301,"end":3449.378,"text":"那另外一個就是這是一個雙軌制目前我們的衛福、社福的這邊已經花了很多的經費、心力我知道大家很辛苦但是只能照顧15%的失能者但是如果我們沒有把800萬的高齡的人口扶住的話讓他這樣傾斜下來的話會造成人口的土石流未來連這些照護都沒辦法照顧好所以這是一個雙軌制壯世代是一個發展性的政策"},{"start":3452.664,"end":3469.782,"text":"這是個減輕年輕世代因為就扶養比來講因為高年化所以擔任分子被扶養的就會越來越大因為少子化所以分母就會越小壯世代有辦法就是把分子壯起來拉下來當分母就成為壯台灣一個很強勁的底盤"},{"start":3474.332,"end":3496.943,"text":"那非常感謝各部會都大概有10個部會都提出了書面的報告均表認同這個方向每一個部會其實現在已經經過大概半年其實都有很多深入的溝通特別感謝勞動部部長勞動部高舉這個壯世代重返職場已經推動了每天都做很多的事情我也都知道那"},{"start":3499.376,"end":3520.105,"text":"其實這個行政院有跨部會小組由陳時中政委來召集有13個部會加入了壯世代的一個計畫在推動所以這個也是卓院長認同然後在13個部會都有經過了很多的討論研議的不是突然蹦出來的東西"},{"start":3521.425,"end":3540.672,"text":"那我們8月12號召開了公聽會那立法院有一個撞出會有240幾位的專家學者共同研議這部分不是我個人去研發的200多位的專家學者每個月都在開會那在這一次4個小時的一個會當中有8個部會的次長全程參與"},{"start":3542.413,"end":3558.301,"text":"這份的法案當中大概都是那一個會議的結論那現行的組織框架政策工具都很有限我們以現在的方法要解決未來的問題是沒有辦法所以立這個法可以協助大家可以協助行政部門推動前瞻的規劃謝謝"},{"start":3562.393,"end":3577.561,"text":"另外這個法案內容基本上都沒有涉及利益的分配,事實上是一個方向性、宣示性。那為什麼大家也會覺得跌宰嫁污,但是也不是一個跌宰嫁污,是一個方向性的。"},{"start":3578.521,"end":3598.446,"text":"必須去重視因為以我們現在的一個法令我們事實上是沒辦法解決未來這個正在發展的搞影化少子化的問題的我們少子化一年要1000億的一個預算投入但是我們的少子化快速的跌破快速的連續的跌破要破10萬人了"},{"start":3599.952,"end":3624.055,"text":"那很重要的壯世代五十五歲上先有七百四萬人都即將被你退休人生在我們的這個定義裡面那如何翻轉這七百萬的壯世代讓他不會成為一個海嘯壓垮了我們的下一代然後能夠繼續成為國家發展的動力是整個這一步伐的核心精神那因為這樣子所以每一個"},{"start":3624.375,"end":3645.204,"text":"每一個部會的確涉及的部會很多每一個部會確實要調整他把這一部分納入到壯世代的精神壯世代這樣的一個而且這不是單一部會能夠解決的問題這個是每一個部會要合作合起來共同解決台灣最艱困的一件事情所以要拜託大家齊心齊力"},{"start":3646.365,"end":3663.938,"text":"那最後就是臺灣我們再經過兩個月就要進入超高齡社會65歲以上占人口的20%以上那我們現在如何對全民來做一個交代臺灣進入超高齡社會我們拿出什麼東西讓人民放心我們提出什麼樣的一個政策照目前的這樣子嗎"},{"start":3664.679,"end":3684.473,"text":"目前這樣的所作的作為當中已經證明將國法案所提出來的是一個變得更嚴重的社會了所以我希望大家齊心齊力不是屬於哪一個黨不是屬於哪一個人而是屬於大家我們共同在寫歷史共同來創造這歷史拜託大家謝謝謝謝謝謝委員的詳細說明好我們接下來請勞動部何部長來說明"},{"start":3697.003,"end":3723.734,"text":"主席、各位委員、理事先生、大家好很榮幸今天有機會來對吳春城委員所提的《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法》來進行勞動部的報告那跟各位委員報告其實整個行政院從2015年政府時代開始就有所謂的因應高齡社會白皮書這樣子的處理"},{"start":3726.624,"end":3735.433,"text":"那麼是在行政院社會福利推動委員會由行政院院長擔任召集人那這一個白皮書呢在110年"},{"start":3738.644,"end":3766.245,"text":"由蘇院長修正核定的因應高齡社會白皮書其次我們在勞動部的角色基本上只是這裡面促進中高齡就業這個部分我們在109年12月4號我們制定了中高齡就業促進專法規劃各種獎補助措施然後來支持我們的中高齡者"},{"start":3767.786,"end":3792.733,"text":"以及高齡者續留職場我先大概解說一下整個行政院跟我們勞動部在這裡面的角色那麼在111年的時候我們又再度行政院他這個因應超高齡社會對策方案提出了一個因應超高齡社會對策方案這個是在112到115三個年度裡面跨15個部會345項"},{"start":3795.934,"end":3803.587,"text":"高達1200億的預算所以各位要了解行政院早就在做這個因應工作了那麼"},{"start":3807.394,"end":3816.704,"text":"勞動部這邊我們也在112年5月1號我們會商的10個部會推動訂定中高齡者及高齡者就業促進計畫這個是2023到2025這個是為了促進就業的那麼在113年的今年6月到8月"},{"start":3827.096,"end":3842.202,"text":"我們由陳時中政委他召集了這個行政院社會福利推動委員會的這一個會議那麼他成立這個有一個高齡社會就是我們在這個因應超高齡社會對策方案65歲以上的高齡者的部分以外呢再加了一個壯世代社會參與促進方案是55歲以上就是所謂吳春城委員倡議的這個概念"},{"start":3852.746,"end":3879.548,"text":"這是一個行政院裡面外加的一個因應方案所以這並不是我要坦白講行政院也沒有把壯世代的這個社會參與促進方案視為是因應高齡社會的全部對策這只是一部分而已成如剛剛大院的委員們所提示的所謂的這個壯世代基本上大概是部分概念而已那麼我要強調這個部分"},{"start":3881.229,"end":3884.572,"text":"所以我也在這邊就是說當然勞動部我們責務龐大一定要全力推動我們中高齡以及高齡者的這個就業參與那麼涉及其他部會的業務我們尊重其他部會的這樣子的一個處理那我也要跟各位委員強調我非常尊敬吳春城委員那麼"},{"start":3905.43,"end":3919.409,"text":"這本所提出的壯世代是一個反年齡歧視一個非常好的概念 那麼我們也支持這樣的社會倡議 那麼甚至行政院也已經在行政措施上全力來處理來推動"},{"start":3923.274,"end":3940.504,"text":"那麼可是呢這樣的一個概念性的東西要上綱為基本法類的這樣子的一個法律措施我們認為有值得商榷的地方因為法律會是最後的手段那麼我們因為會法律會影響到很多社會的各個面向"},{"start":3944.986,"end":3952.097,"text":"那麼我們期待在這部分委員能夠在究極更多的社會共識大家共同來討論以上謝謝"},{"start":3959.367,"end":3971.998,"text":"謝謝部長的回應有關本次會議各項書面資料進列入紀錄刊登公報我們現在要開始詢答做一下先告本委員會因為有兩個委員會聯席所以時間是"},{"start":3976.704,"end":3998.389,"text":"六分鐘列席委員四分鐘十點三十分截止發言登記如果委員有書面質詢請於上會前提出我們暫定十點三十分左右休息十分鐘依往例我們不處理臨時提案現在請第一位登記委員陳昭芝發言"},{"start":4002.861,"end":4007.008,"text":"謝謝主席 有請俄羅姆部長還有國發會副主委 謝謝"},{"start":4012.676,"end":4035.389,"text":"兩位早安剛剛有幾位人覺得說這個壯世代定義不清楚不過事實上勞動部好像已經就有一個壯世代就會促進獎勵實施要點那個名詞已經有出現了那就是2022年消費者文教基金會跟壯世代的科教文學會進行了年齡針對性的一個消費經驗的調查那超過八成的這個高齡者"},{"start":4036.229,"end":4062.595,"text":"他們在消費經驗當中曾經感受到歧視、被歧視或者說他們被貼了標籤而不舒服什麼樣的標籤呢?包括他跟時尚流行是絕緣的或是覺得他應該要吃保健品、營養品他們覺得這樣不舒服那前勞動部部長許明春部長在5050計畫當中採用了壯世代這個名詞可以說是政府對年齡歧視的議題有了一個前進一步終於有所突破了"},{"start":4063.135,"end":4076.901,"text":"所以民眾黨還是要敢再次對勞動部過去願意使用壯世代這個名詞先致謝那大家都很知道這個就上星期國發會發布了未來約50年的國家人口推估那預期我們的人口與年齡結構將對社會經濟帶來非常深遠的一個影響"},{"start":4081.603,"end":4100.239,"text":"來提供的用詞還是使用了中高齡這詞彙那我們今天面對已經幾乎不可逆的少子化高齡化的這個事實我個人覺得中高齡或是老年這個字眼今天改成壯世代或許比較恰當為什麼呢因為壯世代這一詞比較正面"},{"start":4101.22,"end":4101.44,"text":"拜託主委"},{"start":4124.153,"end":4141.127,"text":"我們在10月17號我們公布了我們人口推估的報告那實際上壯世代這個名詞其實是我想在這個各部會其實有一些的討論那我們這個院長也在院會的時候有跟"},{"start":4142.007,"end":4163.846,"text":"委員這邊做過希望由陳時中政委來做這個督導那我們本身也已經有一個謝謝副主那就是剛剛有報告過這些目前我是希望說未來國發會如果要召集各部門的會議來討論的時候可不可以有一些比較實質性的討論就是不要再留在一個"},{"start":4164.386,"end":4164.646,"text":"謝謝委員建議"},{"start":4185.172,"end":4193.5,"text":"繼續說明,那您先請回,那何部長,那個壯世代的這個求職路非常坎坷啦,可是剛剛我提到的這個歧視性的問題之外,鄉州的會長,他2023年企業永續報告中他提到百強企業壯士,壯世代他用這個名詞,那他的定義是51歲以上,他都占新進員工大概7%"},{"start":4205.691,"end":4225.811,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4225.811,"end":4238.439,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4239.423,"end":4262.085,"text":"市委員我們當然其實中高齡就業專法就是在專門處理這個層次的問題我先請署長來回答好不好好謝謝 署長簡短好嗎 謝謝跟委員報告第一個就是我們在鼓勵跟希望僱主對於中高齡的就業禁用上面我們改變心態所以我們提供相關的獎補助的措施跟像類似在勞工端就像類似植物賽事等等"},{"start":4262.725,"end":4286.361,"text":"那另外就是為了避免年齡歧視,這在法律上已經明定,那如果年齡歧視我想這個部分我們依法有來做一個處理。好,謝謝市長,因為我們是希望今天能夠有一些新的思維來,就是目前在做我們都了解,謝謝你們。那因為工作在第一線的服務業或是傳統產業他們都感覺嚴重的缺工啦,我想不只是僱主還有債職員工因為他們在承擔這些事情,那這個部分當然勞動部要能夠做一些橋樑,可是"},{"start":4288.843,"end":4316.759,"text":"我想就是對於這個所謂的壯世代這個求職環境也能夠有新的一個媒合機制可能嗎就是說他們他們並還沒有進入所謂要被照顧他們甚至有經濟能力有生產能力甚至有經濟的需求也都有可能那這個媒合的求職媒合的機制可不可能成立呢就是所謂壯世代可不可能國家來幫忙成立讓這個就是銜接企業的銜接的人才比較沒有障礙這可行嗎可不可以討論一下"},{"start":4317.459,"end":4335.611,"text":"委員其實現在的企業因為缺工確實他們對這一個我們說中高齡也好或中世代也好對他們的這樣的禁用率其實是提高的現在是提高很多尤其你在看到缺工的餐飲業、旅宿業其實他們這個中高齡的禁用是相當高的剛剛這個下面那張圖大家可以看到下面這張圖"},{"start":4340.674,"end":4358.336,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4358.957,"end":4381.976,"text":"這是一個現在想法就我們兩邊都做高齡化我們要照顧但是怎麼樣讓事實上還在亞健康健康的狀態的這一群人好像要過去被認為要這樣退休的這一群人事實上他還是可以貢獻社會的我想今天重點就是這樣他們需要的是活動創造跟自身價值的這個一個市場所以這個時間非常有效我只是說好所以讓我簡單的這個數字讓大家看"},{"start":4385.798,"end":4409.185,"text":"主要國家未來30年的勞動人口臺灣從69.1就是有工作能力70%會降到不到一半46.6那跟韓國一樣吊車尾啦吊車尾啦那勞動力人口是一個國家一個家園臺灣這個家園裡面最重要開疆闢土或是保持我們的國土有競爭力的一個支柱群那如果這個越多對國家是越好"},{"start":4409.625,"end":4409.665,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":4437.11,"end":4442.472,"text":"謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長、還有謝謝署長。接下來我們請林業群委員質詢。主席好。我要請何部長,也就是勞動部的何佩珊部長,還有衛福部的呂健的次長,還有經濟部的連錦章次長,"},{"start":4466.533,"end":4467.194,"text":"經管會臨自縣處長國家發展委員會彭麗珮副主委"},{"start":4482.108,"end":4484.829,"text":"第二次世界大戰後到戰後嬰兒潮當年臺灣每年出生率"},{"start":4501.448,"end":4521.314,"text":"大概事實上是人數事實上大概40萬那到2024年的確我們現在目前9月大概看起來就9萬了的確出生率是下降的那在2024年的今天我們的年齡為58到75歲被法律定義中高齡跟高齡者"},{"start":4522.282,"end":4541.127,"text":"所以我們今天嬰兒潮隨著老化轉為退休潮的時候全球的政治經濟是一個政治經濟大議題所以從勞工保險的老人給付逐年的勤勉人數逐年上升所以臺灣也正面領著"},{"start":4541.647,"end":4556.749,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4557.13,"end":4579.875,"text":"本來我一直認為他是一個倡議工具然後突然拉到我們要來做實質審查的時候我們必須要好好的去討論這個法案有沒有具備法律的一個條件首先我先請教一下經濟部我剛剛前面提的所以大退休潮的趨勢是學界提出來的研究項目"},{"start":4580.795,"end":4607.962,"text":"在產業的實務上逐年越來越多借齡退休者,這個是不是部分產業缺工的原因之一?這個也是部分,第一個少子化,第二個也是那個大退休潮,這也是其中的原因之一。好,那次長我再問你,經濟部有沒有針對緩緩退休,退休後再就業避免逼退中高齡就業主管這些事情,提出產業的輔導辦法,特別是創新的便民做法還是把這項業務全部丟給勞動部?"},{"start":4609.602,"end":4609.722,"text":"謝謝次長那在衛福部這邊"},{"start":4635.109,"end":4659.535,"text":"本法原來這個草案提出來的時候第二條跟第三項跟第四條推動壯世代的產業發展因為過去我聽過吳委員在講他的壯世代產業是認為我們的55歲以上的事實上非常有錢所以可以發展一些壯世代的產業來讓他們去做消費想問一下就是我們的衛福部你認為這樣子"},{"start":4661.408,"end":4685.86,"text":"到底齁我先問經濟部你認為什麼是壯世代產業壯世代產業應該是我覺得不應該是我們經濟部來定義啦應該我們認為說只要第一個要有經濟的自主能力而且他要能夠有生產力那你們認為呢可行性評估結果如何有可能嗎"},{"start":4686.92,"end":4716.92,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4718.702,"end":4732.095,"text":"本席非常擔心退休前後的長輩生活狀況究竟如何?因為朝世代真的像吳委員講的這麼富有嗎?所以想問一下衛福部你們的瞭解是什麼?"},{"start":4733.237,"end":4761.783,"text":"OK,非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心我想先引用Economist經濟學人今年6月2日造就有篇文章談到相關的問題那這個部分其實事實上戰後因果潮當然就是說他經歷了戰後的一個非常非常黃金年代所以普遍資產來說增加但是其實這裡面的這一個收入來說還是有不均的一個情況另外一個問題他裡面談到一個就是說這一個世代的這一個generation他們雖然累積了財富但是卻不消費"},{"start":4763.063,"end":4786.169,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4786.329,"end":4805.75,"text":"所以我們從法院審理民事案件當中所得的參考資料來看的話臺灣社會每個月必要生活費用大概1萬7到2萬3那如果扶弱或者是照顧一人的話就費用會增加一倍所以長輩不會因為退休而大幅免除這些生活上必要開支甚至"},{"start":4806.59,"end":4824.598,"text":"還會有老老互相照顧跟啃老族現象所以我想問的是國家發展委員會現行人口統計對於扶養比的這兩大指標為扶老比跟扶幼比至於65歲以上人口對65歲以上的家屬或64歲以下的人口扶養的統計數據我們很難取得"},{"start":4827.359,"end":4844.277,"text":"所以我本期強烈質疑我們的老老互相照顧跟啃老族這個現象大概有沒有充分的在你們的國家發展委會有沒有去做過這樣子的一個研究瞭解所以至今到底有多少人是這樣有多少戶"},{"start":4855.49,"end":4871.634,"text":"主席,您是要讓我們問到寶嗎?所以我就真的要佔用時間了,因為我才問到一半不好意思,就是您今天一開始就說要讓我們問到寶了所以我今天已經請他們上來了來,衛福部想問一下,就是本法的"},{"start":4872.534,"end":4894.462,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4894.542,"end":4920.112,"text":"提了然後現在又要在這邊提所以有沒有可能會造成民眾誤會精準醫療是為長輩專屬的醫療方法的錯誤認知是的報告委員其實確實有可能會出現這樣的一個疑慮其實我們現在目前已經精準醫療部分我們已經在推動這個部分其實最重要我們也在加強其實最重要是落實的部分的問題所以這邊恐怕如果這樣的話可能也會有跌床架屋的這個疑慮謝謝好"},{"start":4921.593,"end":4944.098,"text":"再回到貧富問題的話戰後嬰兒潮的真的事實上是得天獨厚比其他世代更富足嗎所以想來問因為現在這邊看到的是2023年我們的勞健保的年金加上勞退的薪資兩筆錢加起來大概每個月才23440塊那相較於必要支出的費用剛好打平了所以想來問金管會還有經濟部"},{"start":4948.495,"end":4976.856,"text":"兩位都是金融專家那在社會保險年金尚未成長到讓高齡者足以普遍生活小康的階段的話那現在是推動高齡者促進消費立法的好時機嗎?謝謝委員 經管在這裡說明一下事實上整個中高齡者每個人的財務狀況真的是不一樣那當然在這種情況之下其實經管外在提供所有的保險就是金融服務跟保險商品這是我們本來就在做的這是我們本來就在做的"},{"start":4977.657,"end":4991.372,"text":"對那因為條文裡面確實剛剛有提到就投資剛剛我也有提到投資兩個字啦因為事實上儘管不大適合建議你要去投資相關的標的但商品跟服務這部分是我們可以做到的所以我現在確實掌握數據也是就是40%的確經濟上事上是比較強勢"},{"start":4994.275,"end":5016.852,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5017.199,"end":5034.137,"text":"主席我們儘管的部分應該是在第6條的部分吧其實就是那個金融的部分的部分那那一部分的話就剛剛有聖卢剛剛跟委員報告事實上我們現在就有在做所謂的所有的商品跟服務的檢視那裡面條文剛剛有報告說投資那兩個字可能可能投資不到12啦好謝謝齁"},{"start":5036.599,"end":5062.579,"text":"部長回到你這邊,壯世代那個倡議在平衡老人弱勢形象我覺得很好有正面的訴求當初吳委員講說不要用稱高齡或稱老人我覺得這個我支持可是勞動部今年的這些活動宣傳都聽到壯世代這個稱呼就可以知道但我也很肯定可是要成為一部專法的話從老人學來看的話太過"},{"start":5063.94,"end":5064.22,"text":"稍後再討論"},{"start":5083.88,"end":5110.528,"text":"已經就是通過已經通過中高齡跟高齡者的就業促進法的第7條的修正那其中本席所提出來的將部分工時的也列為政策推動項目公布後現在目前進度如何是委員就是指那個中高齡者的那個部分工時獎勵有我們那個獎勵已經開始在實施而且推廣那有更進度已經開始有"},{"start":5111.325,"end":5116.51,"text":"所以你們有沒有發現說今天這次的草案很大部分跟中高齡跟高齡者就業包括第二條的第一項跟中高齡者就業專法的第33條是重疊的"},{"start":5133.246,"end":5158.34,"text":"是都是重疊的那第7條跟專法的第二章的禁止年齡歧視第4章的促進失業者就業是不是重疊的是完全重疊那第13條跟第14條跟專法的第10條跟34條是不是重疊的那既然在這麼高度相似重疊的話你們事實上是我們勞動部主管機關你們對於這樣疊床架屋是不是會讓我們的政策事實上是"},{"start":5160.141,"end":5176.44,"text":"兩邊都要去執行嗎?還是又定在另外一個法令裡邊?我剛剛已經報告過了我們對壯世代這個名詞當然他是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念可是他要上綱為法律這個有待商榷我剛剛已經說明過了"},{"start":5180.604,"end":5199.046,"text":"我們還是維持現行的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法這樣的專法架構來進行大概就足夠了所以高齡者我們當然還是去支持他的生活智力可是所謂生活智力不論是長輩或是身心障礙者能夠尊嚴的過生活這非常的重要不靠別人照顧"},{"start":5200.227,"end":5225.628,"text":"所以未來達這個目標的話我們反而需要工具的輔助能夠未來事實上有生活輔具、無障礙空間跟數位金融資訊的可進信媒介的幫助所以想問經濟部跟衛福部如果說壯世代的到底產業是什麼我覺得真的要講應該事實上是我剛剛講的生活輔具產業或無障礙的交通產業或可進信的數位金融資訊產業所以不知道"},{"start":5229.532,"end":5233.749,"text":"這個未來不管事實上是衛福部或者事實上是經濟部"},{"start":5235.086,"end":5264.395,"text":"那能不能夠去協力去推動這個我們可以來推動因為我現在講的我們現在目前在行政院配合的角色是這個壯世代是具有經濟還有工作能力的那這個我們當然本來就是他有消費能力我們怎麼去創造他的消費的環境還有就是他在工作的時候他畢竟是已經有一定的年紀那我們怎麼去讓他的工作科技的方法讓他工作做得更輕鬆那這一部分是我們目前已經有在執行了"},{"start":5264.775,"end":5289.409,"text":"那衛福部呢?是,包括委員,我想跟剛剛經濟部一樣,在有關於生活輔具跟無障礙空間,其實很多相關的related的這個產業,我們其實都已經存在,那我們也會持續再來推動。現有的就基本上應該已經足夠,成如剛剛何部長剛剛也有說到,那這個我們會來持續來推動。好,請經濟部衛福部能夠召集相關部會共同制定"},{"start":5290.269,"end":5290.289,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":5317.499,"end":5339.495,"text":"好謝謝謝謝林委員我想因為各個什麼老人福利法、中高齡本身我們行政單位的名稱也是破碎所以吳春城委員提這個要把它統合起來我認為是一個好的idea那至於往後怎麼弄這個是大家要即時廣譽啦好謝謝那我們請陳廷輝委員歡迎"},{"start":5349.11,"end":5372.838,"text":"謝謝主席我們請衛福部還有我們勞動部還有經濟部我們的部長次長謝謝我想今天對於壯世代倡議大家不反對但是今天是我們如何在一個議題當中讓"},{"start":5375.168,"end":5393.306,"text":"我們所有的台灣人民能夠去接受這樣的一個名詞但是你因為要接受這個名詞然後要把我們所有的法全部已經在進行當中的所有法律重新打破然後把它抽出"},{"start":5394.471,"end":5418.029,"text":"合併變成一部你們認為應該做這樣的一個壯世代政策跟產業發展的促進法然後把它匯集起來我相信這個是必須接受很大的討論因為如果今天把它全部抽出來那是不是我們所有的法都要重新檢討了"},{"start":5419.841,"end":5448.914,"text":"因為我們一定拒絕跌床架屋的法令否則到底我這一部法規我要由誰來主管那我們經濟部有產業發展條例有中小企業發展條例這是經濟部那如果今天在壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案如果這個案子通過了那如果遇到相類似的狀態那要由誰來做主導"},{"start":5450.205,"end":5471.801,"text":"所以其實這是一個非常危險如果我們立法機關自己都搞不清楚然後就在這裡進行去做這樣的一個法案的討論是非常危險然後我就要問了我問部長跟次長請問我是屬於什麼世代"},{"start":5474.479,"end":5498.345,"text":"我是屬於什麼世代今天壯世代大家在倡議之後我要問我屬於什麼世代我50歲50歲63年次我屬於什麼世代這個是把它做了一個切割你反而那我是不是要再推一個叫親世代是不是"},{"start":5500.851,"end":5510.353,"text":"否則有壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案那我是不是要再推一個輕世代政策與產業發展促進法草案"},{"start":5511.601,"end":5535.052,"text":"否則有可能現在我們所看到的壯世代如果他是以中高齡他是目前經濟的強勢喔那青世代在50歲以下這一塊反而是我們現在要協助他如何往上提升進入到經濟強勢那請問哪一個區塊"},{"start":5540.782,"end":5562.366,"text":"更為重要那是不是又變成世代的差異這是有很危險當我們在倡議壯世代的時候那我們有沒有反過來思考說那另外一個世代呢那這個壯世代我們現在所說的是以幾歲做區隔現在對壯世代的定義並沒有那麼清楚這只是一個名詞"},{"start":5570.971,"end":5593.949,"text":"這是一個名詞壯世代可是我們到底要怎麼去簽所以我認為說我們如果要去推動一個法案我們都是立法委員我們是要負責任的如果說今天只是為了這個壯世代倡議我絕對第一個舉手因為本來就是"},{"start":5595.148,"end":5615.485,"text":"我們要去做這樣的一個名詞的倡議讓大家去看到什麼是壯世代那其他的世代又是什麼那我們要去幫這些世代做什麼事情這本來就是不論是執政或在野每個人都要去做可是你要把它作為是法令的部分就要從長計議"},{"start":5617.846,"end":5641.877,"text":"這個是我們今天其實認為不宜就因為這樣子的一個答詢然後好像是否下一個階段就要進入主條哇 這個好危險那公聽會是一場兩場三場所以我們真的要拜託一個好的議題千萬不要把它變成是一個大家對立的議題這是很可怕的"},{"start":5645.902,"end":5670.34,"text":"我們現在的社會 別看這個對立啊 大家希望的是 smooth 是希望的能夠你我互相關心 你我互相往上提升 所以千萬不能用一個法令又變成是一個政治的問題 世代的問題"},{"start":5672.617,"end":5672.877,"text":"長照其實﹖"},{"start":5702.611,"end":5728.761,"text":"我們對於長照的議題從小英總統上任到現在賴清的總統說要往上提升到3.0我們也看到整個長照基金的預算我們從2019年開始其實我們幾乎都是300億以上這樣的一個數額甚至是越往上到了我們"},{"start":5731.362,"end":5755.478,"text":"這個2023年的時候已經高達679億對不對然後我們現在在明年的部分我們所提出的是879億對不對但是非常遺憾現在預算還在空中飛還沒有進到立法院的真正審議當中"},{"start":5757.406,"end":5776.881,"text":"那我另外一個要跟市長分享的是當我們從300億到600億到800億甚至要接近到900億請問你們有沒有反觀我們做了這些之後真正有keep到"},{"start":5777.628,"end":5807.117,"text":"每個人長者的需求嗎有沒有你們有沒有去做通盤檢討或是隨時的檢討滾動式檢討有沒有是報告委員非常佩服委員對這一部分的一個關心那我想兩個重點第一個讓委員說我們預算增加我再增加我再補充一個數字如果再加上原民會還有其他的相關部會的話明年賴總統他給我們的預算長照部分是927這是第一個另外第二個委員非常關心的就是說對於各個部分我們特別是對於我們現在目前"},{"start":5807.977,"end":5808.058,"text":"議員．審查委員"},{"start":5829.679,"end":5858.327,"text":"好 這個計畫很好可是我要問的是你們有沒有回歸到基層去了解你所做的這些計畫是不是就是計畫還是真正有讓需要的人拿到他需要的幫助這很重要你要聽懂我的意思我們都來自基層沒錯你知道嗎有一個里長"},{"start":5860.114,"end":5884.532,"text":"他都在幫大家做這些長照的宣導幫市政府做長照的宣導但是他有一次哭著來找我他說委員我自己的先生用到我才知道原來在關鍵需要的時候束手無策為什麼什麼叫關鍵的時候當"},{"start":5887.762,"end":5915.069,"text":"他先生要去看病的時候要去排交通車,排不到可是醫生是有時間的約定那你們今天我看到你們的交通接送服務是有的還有輔具居家無障礙環境改善服務是有的照顧及專業服務是有的"},{"start":5916.718,"end":5942.584,"text":"他跟我講說我當里長我就在幫政府宣導長照2.0長照可以有什麼樣的協助幫忙然後你可以跟政府怎麼申請要多多利用可是當他自己要使用的時候他用不到而且不知道要找誰去幫忙"},{"start":5945.598,"end":5958.071,"text":"所以我今天會在這個時候提出因為你沒有辦法感受到他的那種心理的痛他本身里長做第一線在幫政府宣傳的"},{"start":5959.508,"end":5980.991,"text":"所以我才會說你的計劃是單純就是計劃就是在消化預算的計劃還是真正有用到每個人需要的家中他真正能夠拿到我們的協助而讓這個家庭有所改善而不是因為有一個長照的病人"},{"start":5981.972,"end":6008.677,"text":"而讓他整個家人跟家庭都變成必須整個一片的黑暗我們的長照不就是這樣的嗎我們現在在協助不是就是說我們要幫大家所以我今天用這個故事用這樣的一個我自己直接但你說我可以幫他嗎我也幫不了他"},{"start":6009.818,"end":6022.512,"text":"最無奈的是我也幫不了他為什麼因為他是要有專車他不是隨便的車子都可以載那這個專車量夠嗎那為什麼會有人排不到那為什麼大家要搶著這就是問題"},{"start":6033.634,"end":6055.801,"text":"這個是次長再麻煩你這個部分好好的思考一下問題出在哪?我只是這只是冰山一角喔我只是拿出這個交通車喔你要不要再去盤整到底我們有多少問題是沒有辦法直接複製在每個需要的家庭當中再拜託謝謝非常感謝委員謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長還有次長"},{"start":6061.162,"end":6063.483,"text":"來 接下來我們請鄭正前委員執行主席好 我想先請一下勞動部何部長還有我們國發會的彭副主委委員好"},{"start":6090.96,"end":6110.728,"text":"謝謝主席今天特別安排了壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案的一個備詢跟審議那我在想說坦白說我看了這個壯世代這個相關的一個草案他其實是在立法院裡面也很少數碰到提案是三黨的人都連署"},{"start":6111.468,"end":6136.449,"text":"然後聯署裡面也是三黨就是跨黨派大家一起來支持的一個相關的一個法案那剛剛當然有人提到說這個主審的部會是應該在我們衛環還是應該在經濟委員會那我就想說跟壯世代有關的部分就我在理解當中說他一定跟整個人口的問題有關一定跟人口的問題有關所以我想說"},{"start":6138.01,"end":6167.55,"text":"在台灣就是少子化問題大家都已經非常的理解然後在今年其實我們又通過了再生醫療法的時候我相信台灣的人均的壽命應該會越來越長所以我覺得在這個時間點的時候來審這個壯世代相關的法案我覺得是有它一定的意義的而且我發現說其實大部分的委員至少我到目前為止我聽到大家對於壯世代這個倡議都是肯定的"},{"start":6168.29,"end":6182.042,"text":"高度的肯定包括剛剛何部長也提到這個部分那至於說我們是不是要有一個適當的法來把它變成一個我們後續去做follow的一個依法有據去做很多推動的時候"},{"start":6183.547,"end":6213.207,"text":"我覺得它還是有它的價值性所在所以我想說今天針對這個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這部分的時候我也有幾個問題想先就教一下何部長跟很多因為今天有10個部會都到了這是一個很難得的一個狀態那顯然在之前溝通的時候可能各部會對壯世代這個概念我覺得也應該是抱持肯定的態度居多那我第一個問題我想先問一下國發會因為我看到我們整個人口那個推估的部分"},{"start":6215.289,"end":6226.504,"text":"國防部的人口推估其實很不準你知道嗎我們看到整個這個部分我以112年今年113年1到9月份的時候那比前一年99652也持續的"},{"start":6230.35,"end":6259.821,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6260.541,"end":6281.809,"text":"今年我們在做整個推估的時候,其實我們用了中推估。但是本來我們的推估的方式也有做一些精進。是,因為中推估的話顯然會更不準,因為我已經用低推估的部分把它整理出來。那這沒關係,我在想說因為我們今天在審壯世代相關的法案的時候,我在想說"},{"start":6283.63,"end":6308.62,"text":"我這邊的時候就直接講到因為按照國發會這邊的推估的時候到2020到2070年的時候平均每5年會少100萬個那個有生產力的勞動力的人那這個部分我先跳過去因為我想接下來問題有跟勞動部有關的事情因為我就看你們國發會的數字那顯然台灣的少子化問題會非常的嚴重那在像我剛剛提到在生醫療法通過之後"},{"start":6308.88,"end":6336.249,"text":"我相信台灣的醫療水平會越來越好大家的人均壽命會越來越長所以我想說在這個部分的時候我要如何讓壯世代那壯世代這邊定義說實話他是55歲我看草案當中他是提55歲那是不是我們這個年紀定義要調整我覺得是開放的因為我也覺得55歲感覺有點年輕可是我相信就是當時在提這個法案55歲一定有他的道理在因為50歲可能大家退休的年紀"},{"start":6337.029,"end":6362.443,"text":"他希望退休年紀之後是不會直接就開始休息就造成了很多就是撫養人的一個負擔所以我這邊的時候我想問一下就是何部長因為我看到了一個情況就是我們希望鼓勵65歲以上55歲的人繼續壯世代人繼續在職場當中除了要減輕撫養壓力之外那麼縮小人口人力的一個缺口"},{"start":6363.183,"end":6393.183,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6394.664,"end":6414.413,"text":"確實我們那個65歲以上的勞參率遠低於OECD國家,我們只有9%其他OECD國家人家都是20、10幾%左右所以這部分確實就是我們要致力於這一個部分提高的重點那我們有針對中高齡跟高齡者的這一個勞參那麼對他的這一個就業獎勵"},{"start":6419.515,"end":6434.781,"text":"我剛剛提過就是包括55plus的這樣子的一個計畫然後還有包括植物在設計甚至還有部分工時我們獎勵就是說因應這一個高齡者他的特殊工作型態我們獎勵給僱主也獎勵給工作者"},{"start":6438.862,"end":6459.07,"text":"市長理解這部分那我這邊要提到一個點就是說事實上我們對中高齡就業的一個鼓勵跟獎勵其實也不是剛開始做其實也做很長一段時間可是成績還是不是很好那我這邊我提到幾個點我覺得說跟這次在提壯世代草案當中有點相關的部分就是有關於國發會104年就提到一個"},{"start":6461.391,"end":6489.736,"text":"建進式退休的一個經驗跟做法因為時間的關係國發會這邊有沒有簡單回應一下否則就之後給本席一個書面資料因為從106提到一個建進式的退休的一個經驗跟做法可是感覺上似乎也還沒有真正在做那過去9年來就很多概念提出來也都沒有正式去推動所以我覺得很多的事情我們需要政府部門很具體的去落實下來"},{"start":6490.476,"end":6518.894,"text":"那壯世代這邊剛剛何部長也特別提到說他有一個很大的價值就是反年齡歧視的問題那我覺得這一點其實本席也非常的支持可是我再看到其實我們要怎麼樣去建立一個中高齡的一個友善的一個環境或壯世代一個友善的環境其實是有困難的我看到了一個整個中高齡重返職場當中的困難度調查只有7.6%他覺得有信心有92%的人覺得有困難那這個部分我想說"},{"start":6519.714,"end":6519.874,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":6538.459,"end":6566.072,"text":"怎樣讓環境更好 有一個部分是數位落差的問題數位落差 因為今天那個速發部也有來齁 針對還有教育部這邊也有來 我覺得針對就是壯世代碰到的數位落差的問題的時候 我覺得這邊如果能夠很友善的去解決的時候呢對於我們整個壯世代能夠投入職場當中 或者在生活品質當中的提升都是會非常的有幫助的 那我最後一個部分就問到一個10月15號的時候"},{"start":6567.374,"end":6572.451,"text":"有很多人到立法院這邊來抗議我不知道何部長知不知道這件事情金融機構的"},{"start":6574.916,"end":6596.995,"text":"民眾來抗議因為他們中高齡就業覺得被歧視、被解職我知道這個是是那我們後來來東部這邊怎麼做我有跟您報告其實這個個案喔他基本上已經都被裁罰了因為我們的這一個中高齡就業法裡面我們就是禁止年齡歧視是理解部長裁罰多少錢"},{"start":6599.878,"end":6615.94,"text":"財閥多少錢?你們具體財閥多少錢?各30萬。各30萬。所以財閥總共多少?60萬。60萬。才60萬嘛對不對?他60萬他如果說把他十幾個人就把他給解雇掉的時候這60萬他很值得啊你知道嗎?因為他如果"},{"start":6616.969,"end":6636.456,"text":"所以這個部分部長你之後再給本席一個詳細的說明好不好因為如果說用這樣的方式就可以解決這個中高齡被歧視的問題我覺得這個成本太低好不好所以我在想說今天我們在講壯世代的一個草案我覺得它有它的價值在謝謝主席 謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝 謝謝鄭委員 謝謝部長 市長"},{"start":6641.603,"end":6653.018,"text":"接下來我們請廖維祥委員質詢我們在陳慶威委員執行完畢後休息10分鐘還有我們中午不休息趕快巡禮完畢再參會謝主席有請我們何部長"},{"start":6664.229,"end":6682.034,"text":"委員好部長好是部長我今天搭高鐵上來的時候啊我左前方坐著徐乃琳碰到徐乃琳了部長知道徐乃琳是誰嗎我知道那你覺得我遇到徐乃琳呢我應該要敬老禮讓這個靠窗的位置給她嗎"},{"start":6687.112,"end":6689.334,"text":"所以這就為什麼乃哥的敬老卡掉了他說讓他覺得很難堪啊"},{"start":6716.315,"end":6722.259,"text":"他說其實原因很簡單喔就是我們所謂的這個近老族群喔中高齡族群的刻板印象"},{"start":6723.564,"end":6745.992,"text":"你常常用這個講他總覺得自己身心都漸漸的邁向衰老好像對人生和這個社會開始失去了貢獻能力但是我想問部長我們在看乃哥主持的節目都很有活力很幽默風趣甚至我覺得他比我這30幾歲的人更有創意更顯得年輕所以部長"},{"start":6747.752,"end":6769.802,"text":"這樣子的情況其實我們也可以常常看到有一些新聞報導媒體就五十幾歲的事件我都在介紹五十幾歲的人就會說半白老翁 對不對有這個狀況對不對所以部長我就說這不就是為什麼我們要訂出這個壯世代最重要的原因嗎消除年齡的歧視呢是不是"},{"start":6771.108,"end":6790.365,"text":"我剛剛報告有講過壯世代是一個反年齡期是一個非常好的概念這我們是支持的可是要上綱為法律這有待商榷好部長部長還有我們在場所有的官員我想請問你知道現在的身心障礙者權益保障法之前的名稱是叫什麼嗎你知道嗎現在身心障礙權益保障法之前的名稱是什麼"},{"start":6797.351,"end":6817.157,"text":"就是委員秀出來的殘障福利法對嘛 對不對所以那你難道要當初說這樣子立一個法是有問題的嗎但現在大家都知道喔殘障這兩個字是歧視嘛所以這部法在民國86年就改名為身心障礙者保護法後來連保護這兩個字也改為權益保障"},{"start":6818.493,"end":6829.63,"text":"部長,我們在民國86年就知道要把這個殘障改為身心障礙為何到了民國113年我們還在法規名稱上、心態上對長者歧視呢?"},{"start":6830.787,"end":6855.398,"text":"委員 這不是說不改名稱 這個法律改名稱是要很嚴謹的定義啦當然啦 但是我們在講這是一個 guideline 是一個指導原則嘛因為法律要明確性而且要可指引 所以首先我們所以壯世代的定義剛剛你也聽到爭論挺多我想 對但是我們今天在這裡也說了 來討論然後什麼公聽會未來要怎麼做 其實"},{"start":6856.098,"end":6882.818,"text":"如果認為還有不夠的地方還要討論的地方我們也都予以尊重我們可以再來努力但是我覺得這個東西其實這個就是一個很重要的概念所以我這裡還是要重申為什麼這件事情重要所以我覺得首先我剛剛講的這種地方是存在在我們社會的每個角落都有這個問題你如果政府沒有一起用法令去推動去改善這個人民腦袋中的關鍵的話"},{"start":6883.979,"end":6899.385,"text":"你現在搞再多其實你看到剛剛說很多委員都在說為什麼做不好很多的你說要促進中高齡就業為什麼做不好這都是有這個因素存在喔都是有的所以我也想要說一件事情就是"},{"start":6901.644,"end":6919.889,"text":"其實各部會也回應均認同方向那現在突然就是覺得好像有很大的問題我覺得這可以大家也可以來好好討論一下那所以呢我想要講的事情就是部長中高齡者高齡者就業促進法這個法的名稱"},{"start":6921.289,"end":6944.108,"text":"我想問當初也是用這個年齡去做定義那是不是可以用我意思是說這東西當然可以再去討論啦但是就是基本上要去去化這個歧視的概念當然對啦其實我一直也在思考喔究竟要怎麼做其實我們國人的不健康餘命是8年不健康餘命那為什麼北歐是兩個禮拜"},{"start":6946.835,"end":6963.164,"text":"我覺得這真的是應該要好好的去思考你說這個東西的定義或是要不要推動這件事情其實這個非常的重要而且你說討論不夠嗎其實我看行政院的壯世代跨部會的小組有13部會參與共同推動64項計畫公聽會也有8次然後這個全程參與"},{"start":6969.268,"end":6986.421,"text":"所以現在需要一個立法的來協助來推動這樣前瞻的規劃那其實我要再講回到這個其實我們上次就有討論到這件事嘛中高齡的這個中高齡者跟高齡者就業促進法那所有的勞動部就業平等概括調查"},{"start":6988.322,"end":7009.436,"text":"職場歧視與年齡歧視占比最高。夜11、夜23的調查也是說中高齡就業促進法上路之後57%的人感覺到無助於改善被歧視的狀況。遠見雜誌的調查也說83%的民眾感受到年齡差別待遇。我想這就是我們實實在在存在的地方。其實今天各部會"},{"start":7011.755,"end":7034.794,"text":"你們丟來的資料我去算了一下在這種有一點帶有這種年齡歧視的比如說老啦高齡或是這個銀髮等等等相關的加起來的大概加起來的詞大概就是有39次啊加起來就有39次嘛所以這也是為什麼需要推動這樣一步法去跨部會的一一的去檢討那我剛剛也提了一個就是這個所謂的"},{"start":7035.715,"end":7054.701,"text":"過去的殘障福利法和身心障礙者變成這個權益保障法其實這概念也很類似啊所以我是覺得說這個部分真的是可以不一定要為了反對而反對有很多細節大家可以討論各部會要怎麼做可以討論喔但我覺得現在就是我們很急迫的事情就是"},{"start":7055.401,"end":7075.35,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7076.711,"end":7101.789,"text":"但少子化不但沒解決反而越來越嚴重剛剛我看到也有委員講很多啊說我們長照投入多少錢一千億多少錢的可是我還是回到剛剛講的我們的不健康餘命也沒改善啊沒改善多少啊所以你們到底要不要用創新的方式或是這樣的方式其實也不是說什麼各國全世界沒有其他人定義這件事情難道我們台灣這個極速"},{"start":7103.87,"end":7132.084,"text":"產生這個超高齡社會這個少子化的問題難道我們不能夠創新嗎?難道我們不能夠有不同的思維來推動打破嗎?不是要讓世界看到台灣嗎?我覺得壯世代也是一個很好讓世界看到台灣的一個政策啊我覺得這講起來我出去都覺得很驕傲而且我在地方上講啊很多長輩啊就覺得這個對他們來講是很有重要意義啊其實我們去在地方上跑啊你去參加什麼關懷據點啊或者長青學院其實這些願意出來的人"},{"start":7132.824,"end":7153.063,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7153.343,"end":7164.608,"text":"他們都願意出來可是我要告訴你另外一個角度現在雖然在宣稱什麼我們關懷據點長期學院越來越多其實這還是這樣子的人口這樣子年齡人口的很小一部分"},{"start":7165.393,"end":7190.888,"text":"還是有很多人看不到這就是為什麼政府要帶頭去推動要讓媒體各個層面去改觀而且說真的現在的他這個他這個法的也算是一個方向原則大政策導向原則也沒有所謂利益的問題剛剛我也尊重各個委員有提到什麼叫這個產業等等的問題我覺得這未來都可以細節去討論可是這個大方向一定要確定我覺得這大方向真的是非常的好而且對我年輕人來講年輕世代來講有什麼好"},{"start":7193.369,"end":7212.359,"text":"現在年輕世代在分子上面分母我們要扛很多3點多我今天看報告3點多嘛未來是要變得1比1啊那這時候怎麼辦我們當然要把分母把這些這個55歲以上年齡人口的人拉下來變成分子嘛這些人都還是有很多的這個價值可以創造的"},{"start":7213.908,"end":7237.214,"text":"所以我想要說其實現在的這部分我們剛講到這一切已經在我們的各個層面浮現了而且在台灣是惡性的螺旋少子化和超高齡這問題只有不斷的擴大所以如果再不解決它一直以來就是這個國安問題所以我希望各黨派真的秉出這個旗艦這個是全台灣我們國家面對的"},{"start":7238.354,"end":7263.542,"text":"而且憑良心講各部會回應也都有這個軍認同我看到那個報告裡面大家有多覺得認同這個方向啊那到底呢我們是不是要好好的我們可以去討論各個細節但是我覺得這個大方向真的大家要努力的推動不要因為政黨的問題因為目前為止所有你不管是這個我上次還問你說那你要怎麼消除這個所有的參與對於這個中高齡者的歧視問題"},{"start":7265.014,"end":7281.748,"text":"其實你那個當下也並沒有辦法很好的回答我知道有很多細節有戰術、戰略、戰鬥但是我覺得戰略上這個觀念是很重要的所以這個部分我一定要再講一次這就是一個沒有整體性規劃引起所以這裡外界一直在批評我們政府"},{"start":7282.449,"end":7303.558,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7303.891,"end":7321.71,"text":"就是要有這樣的統籌機制而且這個統籌機制也必須是去掉這個歧視性的詞句去帶領我們整個社會去翻轉這樣的觀念所以其實包含著勞基法的也是工廠法的前身我覺得有很多東西是要與時俱進"},{"start":7324.437,"end":7338.174,"text":"所以我希望說我想問到各部會可不可以回去盤點一下其實這個勞基法只是一個例子和剛剛這些都是一個例子我們各部會是不是可以盤點自己因應這個壯世代政策能夠修改的法律跟政策"},{"start":7339.401,"end":7356.681,"text":"委員我可以補充一下嗎就是您提到好像殘障福利法競爭為身心障礙身權保護法基本上身心障礙他是有一個國際公約定義的他是非常明確的其實他背後概念一樣嗎你當然你要跟我敘述國際喔"},{"start":7359.043,"end":7376.036,"text":"還沒有發展出一個這樣明確定義的這樣的一個操作型概念這是因為我覺得真的一再跟您強調法律要明確性而且要可執行否則它會對社會上現在我們當然現在的壯世代定義是55plus嘛對不對55plus嘛對不對但是它現在有很多的這是方向性原則我覺得細節這個我們都可以再深入討論每一個細節每一個法要怎麼修"},{"start":7386.283,"end":7408.677,"text":"可是我現在今天感受到的就是變成未反對而反對你可以跟我找一堆理由嘛就是每一條細節可是現在的修法他也都是很方向性的東西嘛那你說有沒有定義他也有定義我們有一個壯世代社會參與促進方案是76項的工作所以需要跨部會我覺得更需要強力的跨部會去推動"},{"start":7409.717,"end":7409.897,"text":"接下來請陳慶輝委員質詢"},{"start":7444.336,"end":7472.117,"text":"我也請勞動部部長謝謝何部長委員好部長好部長你知道賴總統去年11月出席公辦勞動政見發表會承諾過的勞工政策有一個是性別平權一個是鼓勵女生投入就業那他說到他要打造性別友善雙就業雙照顧因為我們現在雙薪家庭非常的多嘛是"},{"start":7472.637,"end":7499.835,"text":"友善育兒另外呢有一個蠻重要是今天要跟您討論的因為跟我們的壯世代也相關就是說他希望可以建立上市上櫃企業薪資透明化的制度去減少性別還有年齡所帶來的薪資不公這件事情他講很多次喔競選總統的時候也講他當行政院院長的時候也講所以我想知道針對這個企業薪資透明化的制度最近勞動部的進展如何"},{"start":7500.555,"end":7517.653,"text":"委員我在業務報告其實有公開報告過就是我們現在跟金管會已經達成共識就薪資透明化列入ESG裡面的報告書有明白要揭露非主管值的薪資中位數以及男女之間的薪酬"},{"start":7518.374,"end":7518.414,"text":"您會參加顧問會議嗎?"},{"start":7534.685,"end":7539.347,"text":"經法會顧問會議嗎?經法會我當然是要參加的。是,下一次大概預計什麼時候?你們會討論這個進程嗎?修法的進程?行政院現在還在訂時間,是。沒有,這個是勞動部幫您做的圖,希望您當勞工的靠山。是,謝謝。謝謝,謝謝。那在這邊呢,也要請教您,因為"},{"start":7561.277,"end":7582.391,"text":"就業服務法第5條是7年前修訂的我們當時訂定說薪資4萬以下才需要公開可是7年前到現在我們蔡政府的基本工資已經漲了非常多次請問你知道現在我們跟7年前比起來現在的平均薪資還有中位數大概是多少嗎我們現在大概中位數是4萬6"},{"start":7588.442,"end":7604.567,"text":"平均薪資大概是4萬6那中位數是37502跟這個修舊法之前來比其實經常性薪資已經上調到5000多元了所以我們調整薪資透明化的門檻你有沒有"},{"start":7605.367,"end":7618.393,"text":"有沒有什麼初步的想法?你們想要怎麼修訂它?我知道委員那個我們有在討論中就是關於薪資透明化當然救護法是規定4萬那有沒有必要再上調我們已經在討論了"},{"start":7621.894,"end":7647.984,"text":"我比較想知道的是進度啦你們預計在什麼時候會定出來我們要就是因為當然我們本來舊福法就有修法的計畫啦那麼明年上半會期明年上半會期你會想提出新的是是是對很好我也是幫大家關心一下謝謝再來呢這件事情我們之後也會面臨也就是說"},{"start":7649.244,"end":7663.975,"text":"公車司機現在平均喔月薪是7萬可是居然沒有人想要坐我舉臺北市好了臺北市我們這個公車司機的缺口已經超過1500人那如果交通部統計全臺灣的大客車駕駛缺工是2000到3000人"},{"start":7668.738,"end":7690.316,"text":"所以大客車他在招募就算開出6萬到8萬啊他到現在才補了500多個人那為什麼我們要提到這個問題是因為2030年有一大批借旗的借鈴的公車駕駛要退休所以我們計算一下比如說台北市會有900多位在"},{"start":7690.896,"end":7712.654,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7713.783,"end":7740.229,"text":"市委員您就是這個當然公車客運司機其實我們已經開放橋外生中階人力可以來這一個用這個在上個月我們開放了對那麼當然其他重點就是說橋外生夠不夠啦或是說你的薪資橋外生願不願意來來來來來這個對那因為公車的環境他可能比較就是說比如說客宿頻繁"},{"start":7741.269,"end":7758.832,"text":"所以對這個公車的勞動 公車的勞動提要加價 如果只有薪水 這個問題而已下一張我是要告訴您說 他們現在必須加班 所以一天的工時10到12個小時 如果他排到首班車他4、5點就要出門 中間雖然有給他休息時間 可是"},{"start":7759.94,"end":7786.374,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7786.374,"end":7801.391,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":7801.471,"end":7804.992,"text":"為什麼今天很需要勞動部的幫忙來改善他們的就業環境是因為這個圖告訴我們說我們現在客運量在疫情後雖然大幅的降低可是我們已經回復到疫情前的八成了"},{"start":7829.122,"end":7841.175,"text":"但是我們只有回復到疫情前的八成我們的事故是疫情前超過就表示說你的人力不足超時已經影響到道路安全了"},{"start":7843.416,"end":7869.969,"text":"所以我給你幾個具體的建議好了那在這邊呢我有去找你們很認真你們當然也有去看誰有違反勞動權益嘛所以在這些違反勞動法這些查詢系統你會發現說他的樣態很相似都是欠薪啊勞資糾紛啊另外他的公司也集中在某幾家"},{"start":7871.63,"end":7893.42,"text":"但我們現在你必須要去輔導他我當然覺得你去我們來跟交通部合作好不好沒錯所以下一張是本席今天給你具體的建議啦第一個心理諮商其實你可以主動出擊了因為他們現在面臨的壓力太大所以他不管是勞心或是勞力都很嚴重第二個是"},{"start":7894.904,"end":7922.509,"text":"我們就關乎到壯世代了因為你們必須要去盤點目前有這些駕照的人但是沒有在做有哪些人你們是不是跟交通部聯合招募他們回來再做一個再次訓練班看有哪一些門檻到達可以去補充這樣子的人力那第三個當然本期也希望您除了去查核除了去裁罰也可以去具體的輔導他們好嗎好我們來跟交通部一起來會上進行謝謝委員"},{"start":7926.963,"end":7928.352,"text":"謝謝請會員謝謝部長我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8234.957,"end":8235.079,"text":"本集完"},{"start":8345.998,"end":8346.476,"text":"﹏"},{"start":8381.698,"end":8382.824,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":8603.083,"end":8608.767,"text":"好報告委員會我們繼續開會現在請林淑芬委員質詢主席各位大家午安是不是還是請請我不知道要請誰應該加吳委員"},{"start":8631.297,"end":8637.722,"text":"請務委員好吧那我們就先這個老實說我真的不想好沒關係勞動不好了"},{"start":8648.188,"end":8670.847,"text":"委員好部長好我之所以說不曉得找誰上台因為這個是一個應該理論上是行政院處長有來行政院的這個層級但我想先這樣說因為委員的版本談到壯世代的這一個產業發展促進法基本上是產業發展促進法那談到生產力還有這個消費力"},{"start":8676.071,"end":8693.438,"text":"作為一個消費者壯世代作為一個消費者擁有消費力這一件事情我認為我對政府部門不擔心因為大家都知道壯世代的經濟實力都會比年輕人更高大概為了台灣如果從45歲50歲這個年齡來界定也有人是從45歲來界定的大概台灣的財富的一半以上"},{"start":8702.162,"end":8703.823,"text":"在百貨公司的週年慶上他們的平均消費力"},{"start":8731.206,"end":8731.226,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":8748.78,"end":8748.98,"text":"但是呢﹖"},{"start":8775.335,"end":8777.076,"text":"作為他們 如果我們從他們的這個勞動力這個生產者這樣的角度來看 的確大家都非常的憂慮那為什麼這個呢 其實我們要講說等到他是壯世代再來解決中高齡就業問題已經是來不及了"},{"start":8795.925,"end":8796.986,"text":"到壯世代才開始要來面對如何讓他們續留在職場讓他們可以重返職場我必須要說有一點慢那有一件事情是我經常說的就是說"},{"start":8811.818,"end":8814.441,"text":"台灣的女性從55歲到64歲一旦當上了阿嬤就業的機率就像土石流一樣下滑統計上只剩下35到38%"},{"start":8828.599,"end":8848.327,"text":"所以他是勞動力的土石流而這個我們都知道第一波土石流是女性生育生和育小育兒以後之後他就土石流崩滑一次然後當阿嬤還要為了幫孩子帶孫子所以他又再下滑一次"},{"start":8849.227,"end":8862.698,"text":"那所以我們在講說因為要比較嘛為什麼要比較除了比較OECD以外我們在講說55到59歲的女性臺灣的女性勞參率下滑比德國低了多少%你記得嗎我還問過你我們都比這個低了多少你記得嗎約略55到59歲臺灣女性的勞參率下滑的現象比德國低了幾%你知道嗎"},{"start":8878.154,"end":8902.068,"text":"至少十幾二十有不你錯了33.760到64歲的女性的勞參率比德國低了多少你知道嗎為什麼講土石流因為比德國低了33.4%所以說你的策略等到壯世代了我們再來想這個是太慢了太晚了來不及了"},{"start":8902.782,"end":8930.488,"text":"我們一路要從他生兒育兒然後你要完善的生兒育兒的配套讓阿嬤不用為了孩子去購孫留住勞動力然後不離開職場這個就是你失職的地方啊不能夠等到我現在壯世代了我想要重返職場再想如何鼓勵他們重返職場這是不應該的而是應該要想你要更積極的去想你要讓他續留職場"},{"start":8932.386,"end":8959.204,"text":"你一直做不到啊光是我們在講的這個育嬰留庭改成這個這個照顧假你就沒有辦法很積極的去做那我必須要再講一個數字喔青年的失業率為什麼要講青年因為要解決這個勞動力的問題啊有可能他的發生一開始就在青年了勞動力青年的這個失業率有多高你知道嗎台灣"},{"start":8961.382,"end":8963.364,"text":"我請署長回答一下好不好"},{"start":8986.369,"end":8999.9,"text":"來啦!青年失業率阿這個OECD的平均青年失業率是10.8%阿我國的青年失業率來到11.4%我們比OECD平均還要高你知道澳洲幾%嗎?署長"},{"start":9001.701,"end":9002.642,"text":"韓國6.4 荷蘭7.8 紐西蘭9.1 連最大家都覺得美國美國是8.1而台灣"},{"start":9022.908,"end":9040.449,"text":"這一路走來始終是兩位數11.4那為什麼要講這個呢如果青年的失業問題沒有解決的話也會降低人力資本跟社會資本的累積會傷害國家的經濟發展而且如果失業青年難以步入職場"},{"start":9041.93,"end":9062.979,"text":"來間接形成中年失業甚至變成啃老族整體國家的青年經濟力出現下降造成社會整體消費率衰弱產生不分不生然後不分不生陷入惡性循環讓國家的人口結構競爭力也造成負面的影響好"},{"start":9064.399,"end":9083.51,"text":"這還是間接的我講低薪跟低就業意願的惡性循環我國勞動部的薪資行情跟大專就業導航的數據顯示臺灣大多數的大專畢業生都從事什麼行業你知道嗎什麼行業你們勞動部自己的服務業高達幾%你知道嗎70%"},{"start":9094.605,"end":9097.448,"text":"台灣的大專生畢業高達74%選擇從事服務相關行業這個是2022年的數據其中服務業裡面選擇批發零售業是16.95%是最高幾乎17%都去做批發零售那我們都知道"},{"start":9116.607,"end":9133.745,"text":"批發零售服務業多數相對低階的技術低階的薪資難以被期待獲取到高薪的待遇服務業的薪資天花板通常也不高也沒有辦法帶動薪資成長對個人生涯發展並無優勢而且現在還要面臨一個衝擊"},{"start":9141.952,"end":9165.325,"text":"當國家未來的棟樑投入低所得的職業對我們的經濟成長帶來非常重的影響是因為隨著全球化人工智慧的進步多數的低技術工作比較容易移到基本工資較低的新興國家或是被機器自動化取代"},{"start":9165.945,"end":9169.148,"text":"而國內的低技術工作機會將會越來越少而年輕人若有17%持續從事這一類的工作將會面臨中高齡失業所以我們講壯世代的就業問題"},{"start":9185.464,"end":9185.784,"text":"勞動力的問題"},{"start":9216.766,"end":9219.569,"text":"所以壯世代的問題在青年時代就種下了因"},{"start":9233.784,"end":9253.353,"text":"對對對所以當然我們現在也動用很多行政措施在所謂的投資青年就業方案這樣子的行政措施啊有效嗎這10年來始終都11%12%欸這10年來相對還是還是有改善啦啊哪裡改善其實青年的失業率是有降低的有啊2016年12"},{"start":9256.228,"end":9280.366,"text":"2020年12只是那個幅度20212021年12.1改善你都自我感覺良好就是說當然這個也有他你有沒有覺得教育產業也需要跟你們配合啊如果你們的教育產業一直在停留在說餐飲業、觀光業對不對那些科系是不是要開始也要想想看輔導轉型"},{"start":9281.892,"end":9293.327,"text":"有沒有需要那麼大量啊可是委員這部分正在缺工這是一個困難你知道嗎在缺工請問他們科系系所檢的數目有沒有很多"},{"start":9294.79,"end":9311.406,"text":"而唸完的人就要去當服務生嗎?服務生需要唸餐飲業嗎?唸餐飲課的是要成為主廚的捏是委員可是其實我們在計職青年的就業方面我們是很鼓勵多元的我的意思是說你應該到行政院"},{"start":9312.387,"end":9316.632,"text":"從行政院開始我們面對千年畢業就踏入職場就選擇這麼低階的服務業的工作這個零售業的工作這一方面我們是不是從頭就要開始如何讓他的學歷他的學習含金量是高的"},{"start":9329.87,"end":9348.428,"text":"然後讓他可以在未來有更好的適應力的不要做到最後是中年失業的對可是委員我想應該是這樣當然餐飲啊這一些服務業相對低薪可是我覺得餐飲服務業面餐飲的人不一定是服務生喔不要這樣講喔對對對可是我的意思說應該是相對去尋求服務業的產業結構的改善啦"},{"start":9353.473,"end":9376.049,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9376.738,"end":9403.399,"text":"一個月、一個多月、兩個月以後台灣一半的人都超過45歲而且在明年以後65歲以上的人口五個就有一個進入超高齡社會喔然後呢在這種狀況裡面我必須要講啦勞動大家勞動力市場都喜歡年輕勞動力是不爭的事實啦大家都喜歡新鮮的肝嘛但是"},{"start":9404.5,"end":9408.183,"text":"但是勞動力需求很高的產業他也不得不面對勞動力短缺的這一個問題所以我剛才就在講說只要女性的勞參率提高2%我們的這一個缺工的問題會解決很多那你有能力留住我們女性提高我們女性的勞參率嗎"},{"start":9428.221,"end":9454.22,"text":"對委員所以我們現在正在推行多元陪伴服務方案我們希望能夠在多元陪伴服務方案就可以提升女性的勞參率嗎當然是一個面向啦就是一個方案我們希望能從這樣的推動來進行我們我就告訴你其實照顧上照顧政策也出現了很大的問題照顧政策女性勞動力向土石流滑落誰怕再來的孤孫都跟你講了這兩個關鍵啊"},{"start":9456.162,"end":9459.834,"text":"那我想我們來跟衛福部長照體系我們也一起來共同來談好不好?"},{"start":9464.248,"end":9484.746,"text":"審查與衛福部長照有什麼相關?顧孫與長照有什麼相關?你剛剛回答我說這個問題要怎麼解決你說你要跟衛福部的長照體系去討論我就不知道衛福部的長照跟顧孫跟審查有什麼相關那委員育兒也不是我的事啊是不是給假是你的事啊育兒留職停薪給假啊"},{"start":9489.531,"end":9504.21,"text":"我們不生小孩除了經濟因素以外就是要陪伴因為養小孩要陪伴而沒有假可以陪伴讓很多人不願意當然在青年失業沒有工作又低薪我不就不想生這跟你有關啊怎麼會沒有關呢"},{"start":9506.773,"end":9520.543,"text":"但我們講回來啦 這個週刊有一篇報導啦齁週刊有一篇報導說啊他們去訪問這個百大的這個優良的企業啦齁這個企業裡面啦是這樣子就是說週刊在永續這個他們去看"},{"start":9532.714,"end":9553.405,"text":"入選世代百強的友善企業壯世代他們禁用新進員工51歲以上的壯世代的比例最好的台灣的壯世代百強的壯世代最友善的企業他們禁用新進員工的比例是幾%你知道嗎"},{"start":9555.543,"end":9570.381,"text":"您有看那篇報導嗎?上週的上週的人家都...你都知道今天要報告有壯世代的這個產業促進法了你們至少要惡補一下吧人家做了一個專題你至少要看一下吧而且這個是"},{"start":9572.506,"end":9589.557,"text":"而9月才出刊的專題他講說啊重視在新進員工啊占他們新進員工的比例是7%而你勞動部部長都不知道那未入選的企業幾乎都是零言下之意是企業大概都不會再聘僱51歲以上的員工啦"},{"start":9591.038,"end":9603.211,"text":"五十一歲啦所以產業但是他裡面講產業的特性很大程度決定了企業要不要任用壯世代的積極性缺工海嘯第一排是哪一個業缺工海嘯第一排最嚴重的最缺工的"},{"start":9609.591,"end":9620.44,"text":"最低薪的嗎那是服務業相對缺服務業他也不得不啊他妥協啊所以他必須要低頭所以他們現在是最號稱最懂得這個壯世代的優點所以也最願意用然後傳統製造業的人力啊被半導體業搶人搶走了所以他們也在討論要怎麼處理而哪一個產業是最"},{"start":9638.334,"end":9649.828,"text":"用壯世代最不可能的,可能是最低的,步調最慢的,哪一個產業你知道嗎?大家趨勢若霧,年輕人都要去的,就不需要老人工啊,那哪個產業?上面有寫資訊科企業對啊"},{"start":9657.034,"end":9661.257,"text":"對阿 所以就是說服務業傳產科技為什麼他們會有差別因為他們的條件不一樣嘛就是這樣子這麼簡單而大家都知道你要禁用這個中高齡的這個人力他不是說企業內部馬上禁用就可以的"},{"start":9675.046,"end":9697.44,"text":"他要醞釀一個友善的措施跟氣氛這個根據104中高齡銀行總經理吳立雪的經驗講他要調適企業要調適調適起至少需要5年欸所以為什麼也是需要政府去輔導因為他需要調適從公告周知改善工作環境由下而上塑造自然而然的年齡共融文化"},{"start":9698.447,"end":9714.272,"text":"都需要5年所以如果你沒有這關鍵的4、5年趕快準備真正缺工的時候企業是沒有辦法應對的所以這一件事情跟勞動力有關跟企業雇主也有關所以為什麼有人就覺得說中高齡員工通常忠誠而且可靠經驗豐富有助於服務客戶而且混零的職場對組織也帶來好處能夠共享知識和經濟"},{"start":9724.275,"end":9740.726,"text":"彼此生產力得以互補然後培養出下一代人才可是呢我們來講的是說因為他們也不得不這樣子講啊也不得不這樣子中高齡還需要就業的人當然他有他的經濟需求他也當然不可能像年輕人說沒啥我不要找人來找"},{"start":9743.047,"end":9765.762,"text":"所以他的留任年、他的自我要求高、留任穩定性高所以美聯社的人、人資長就說我們45歲以上的員工流動率有不到30歲以下的一半流動率低減少了重複招募的訓練成本穩定服務品質所以壯世代人力的使運用也為企業帶來好處而他們也必須要低頭去重新重視這個壯世代的人力"},{"start":9773.408,"end":9786.446,"text":"所以啊 這個裡面啊 這個都是市場自由機制 那政府能做什麼 所以我一直講市場能夠自由機制 人家自行就去調整了 那政府都不用作為嗎 政府當然要作為啊"},{"start":9787.352,"end":9816.518,"text":"委員我可不可以補充就是說我一上來我就說缺工不能等於低薪啦當時服務業一直要我開放移工可是我到現在我並沒有這麼做可是也因為這樣所以餐飲業這樣的服務業他們在中高齡的任用上比例是有增加的而且還這個真的是有顯而立見的效果所以你有做出防衛 他們在薪水的提升上面你有守備你有防衛但是這樣子不夠啊你除了儲備你要心力啊"},{"start":9817.398,"end":9825.847,"text":"你還要新立啊當然你有中高齡產業促進的鼓勵中小企業的抵減的方案出來有沒有更積極的啊那我剛剛講的這個要讓婦女留在職場續留我們要假要有假然後青年的"},{"start":9837.782,"end":9839.183,"text":"關於基礎教育我是花很多心力啦謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":9853.935,"end":9854.856,"text":"謝謝林委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請黃秀安委員"},{"start":9885.598,"end":9886.399,"text":"主席 請部長"},{"start":9901.135,"end":9923.665,"text":"部長好,今天就我們今天要討論的這個壯世代的政策還有產業發展促進法草案其實我們也知道就是說在我如果以這個壯世代來講的話其實是應該是最有經驗的這個年齡就是說55歲那可是我們一方面我們看到就是說在"},{"start":9924.646,"end":9934.194,"text":"主計總署有在112年12月有做一個統計就是55歲到59歲國人的這個勞參率差不多61.7那相較於50到54歲的這個勞參率是77.68所以差不多下降的是15.9%那另外我們又跟國際比的話我們的勞參率跟國際比我們的勞參率又更低"},{"start":9951.869,"end":9981.869,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":9983.07,"end":10002.06,"text":"女性的這個勞參率在這個時候也是整個下滑學崩式的下滑所以我想請教就是部長未來我們在這一方面怎麼樣來協助55歲以上如果他還有心想要再就業的話或者是女性就業的話我們要怎麼去協助他們"},{"start":10002.68,"end":10030.741,"text":"那我也看到就是說我們在很多法案上面都有針對這個中高齡的部分都有做一些協助那我是不是請部長再針對這一部分來做一個說明是當然為了我們就有很多行政獎勵措施啦針對這一個中高齡就業以及婦女在就業包括55plus計畫婦女在就業獎勵包括對部分公司等等這些設計有給雇主然後也有給勞工這樣子這是行政措施的部分"},{"start":10031.181,"end":10054.751,"text":"但是有一個問題,就是說僱主他申請完之後,他可能那個申請的期間結束之後,他可能就請這一個員工就請他離開。其實我們也有碰到類似這樣的一個狀況。了解,那我們再來針對這部分,確實就是說這可能就是這個計畫結束後,對,它就會變成只是一個階段性的這樣子,而不是一個延續性的一直僱用這樣。"},{"start":10056.792,"end":10080.105,"text":"對,這我們來檢討,就是說這個如何讓它延續性的僱用,讓它獎勵又一直存在啦。這可能支援我們要再必須再多投入這樣。你們有沒有去做一個統計,就是說在你們這個計劃期間,可能這個女性的就業或者是二度就業,因為你們有給這個僱主有一些補助嘛,所以僱主他也願意來申請。"},{"start":10083.688,"end":10099.324,"text":"當計劃時間結束之後,勞工就離開了嗎?那像這樣你們有沒有去做一個統計?就是說在這個計劃結束之後離開,或者是繼續留下來的這個比例是多少?我請署長回答,可以嗎?"},{"start":10100.455,"end":10125.134,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們現在對不管中高齡55歲以上或是婦女其實我們持續追蹤其實因為現在其實是因為缺工其實現在跟過去不太一樣其實我們在一年的這些想補助的措施結束後其實流動率還是很高啦,八九成都有但是確實會有少部分的業者可能他用完他就說那我就不要那這個我們來檢討我們整個計畫上所以你們有沒有做這樣的一個統計"},{"start":10125.814,"end":10137.498,"text":"有這個我們在相關的資料我們統計之後是不是在會後給委員好確實有的顧主他只是想要領補助而已啦有這個狀況確實有這個狀況對所以我覺得你們會後再把這個統計的這個數字給我那另外就是說今天我們看到各部會都有交這個這個"},{"start":10150.143,"end":10178.181,"text":"報告的一個資料過來那也知道說這個壯世代的政策還有產業發展促進法可能相對的會跨很多的部會那當然就是說尤其跟經濟部這邊可能會有產業的發展可能會有更密切的關係因為除了勞工勞動部這邊除了是勞工就業之外那產業的這個部分跟經濟部會有更大的一個關係所以我們也希望就是說"},{"start":10179.101,"end":10188.827,"text":"未來主席在召開這個公聽會之後廣聽各界的意見之後那應該下次應該再請經濟部這一邊來主責那聽產業方面這邊要怎麼來做因應壯世代的這樣的一個產業的發展我覺得跟這個經濟部應該會有更密切的一個關係另外"},{"start":10204.836,"end":10221.785,"text":"我想再請教就是說其實我們知道說企業缺工那企業很多他們還是希望用禁用年輕年輕人好如果說你可能40幾歲以上你要再找工作確實非常的困難"},{"start":10223.266,"end":10242.083,"text":"我覺得勞動部應該也不會去否認就是說所有的企業或者是這個資方他希望禁用的就是禁用年輕的勞工那當然就是說我們會有一些誘因就是說可能勞動部這邊會有一些誘因來請資方這邊禁用這個中高齡的這個勞工那確實"},{"start":10246.988,"end":10262.073,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":10262.073,"end":10289.753,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10290.033,"end":10290.053,"text":"謝謝委員 會來趕進"},{"start":10316.48,"end":10317.66,"text":"謝謝主席 我們順利有請部長"},{"start":10341.745,"end":10362.797,"text":"市長好,市長我們今天討論這個壯世代跟產業發展的問題那在你夜館的主要就是中高齡就業促進法這個上路近4年來他是有成長但是成長得很緩慢你可以看到這個圖如果我們用壯世代的定義吳春城委員他講的55歲以上的話那他幾乎是1年1%的這個成長率"},{"start":10367.642,"end":10393.024,"text":"其實是一個緩慢的成長非常的有限所以我想今天有那麼多的部會來我也覺得促進中高齡就業也不是只有勞動部的責任因為這當中涉及到很多產業的面向僱主願不願意去禁用然後也涉及到職務再設計的一個問題所以今天其實經濟部也有來我們是不是也請這個經濟部"},{"start":10395.946,"end":10424.162,"text":"連次長是不是也上來這個問題我覺得是要共同來推動所以早上還有委員在說這個委員的這個法應該要由經濟委員會主審這個不是放在未還委員會所以表示兩個部會都有責任那我要問的是像經濟部我先問一下次長你比較少來未還委員會你們在中高齡就業的方面你們有沒有提供什麼樣的獎勵跟措施"},{"start":10424.742,"end":10438.631,"text":"我們其實在產生條例就有一些租稅業會那再來就是在一些中高齡一些相關的輔技或是一些導入一些智慧科技這個我們在產業發展上我們都有極力在推動而且我們跟勞動部在"},{"start":10439.872,"end":10458.473,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10459.231,"end":10475.902,"text":"你們是缺人做解決,你不是引進就業機會嗎?對不對?你是把它數位化之後減少用人。你不是增加就業率啊?這個方向性是不一樣的,我們講的是促進他的就業。那我讓兩位看一下,就是說在韓國,他們有高齡者就業促進法。"},{"start":10476.843,"end":10499.446,"text":"他們的主動積極的精神就是他會去篩選160種適合中高齡者就業的職類我就問兩位我們目前在臺灣我們要促進中高齡的就業我們有沒有很細膩的去篩選哪些行業別他其實是比較適合中高齡在就業的目前有沒有有沒有羅列出來"},{"start":10501.248,"end":10510.883,"text":"我們這個正在討論中,就是我們也要參考韓國訂出一個質疑,然後把這一個...那我問一下經濟部你有什麼角色?你知不知道韓國這樣的做法?"},{"start":10515.871,"end":10534.646,"text":"你們經濟部有沒有在做沒有我們沒有因為我們是配合勞動部如果這個職類設計出來那我們要配合比如說人才培訓對這個就是我看到的問題啦事實上經濟部在這一個角色上面是蠻消極的所以我想這是為什麼吳委員才會有提到一個產業發展的概念"},{"start":10534.986,"end":10555.916,"text":"就是說經濟部也應該與時俱進啊,邁向高齡化的社會這個你們要看到我們的勞動市場會有越來越多的中高齡者就是說你現場要運用中高齡者但是在這個部分如果經濟部沒有想法沒有主動性跟勞動部一起就是來思考比如說你們對產業是最了解的啊"},{"start":10556.576,"end":10571.637,"text":"那我看現在產業部分也是勞動部在負責啊沒有沒有沒有你們對於現場其實哪一些適合中高齡就業我覺得經濟部也應該提出你們的構想啊因為你們狹下管那麼多的中小企業是都你管的勞動部你管的"},{"start":10573.479,"end":10596.62,"text":"對不對?勞動部是管勞工啊那企業老闆、雇主這邊他是不是他的職場環境應該怎麼做我覺得經濟部也應該要加入好不好而且職場環境尤其是中高齡這種職場環境這個我們好那我就要求就是這個部長可不可以答應我們最快什麼時間我們可以篩選出適合中高齡就業的這些職類"},{"start":10598.102,"end":10624.002,"text":"明年2月就會訂出來明年2月嗎?對,我們那叫做職務在設計指引我們正在篩選職類那我要求這個部分要優先訂出來因為這才是一個很具象很具體的我們要如何把這些中高齡的他們的人力導引進適合他們的職類要不然大家其實就是不能瞎子摸象那不會成功,那個就業率也不會成功好不好?那另外一個"},{"start":10625.122,"end":10649.492,"text":"韓國他們其實有義務優先禁用就是55歲以上的族群但是其實看我們現在的中高齡就業促進法我們比較重輔導但是我們沒有一個在法令上面去希望企業可以有優先僱用跟禁用的這樣的一個條款所以就會變成在實務上面你只能用獎勵啦你剛剛也講你們有很多的獎勵計畫但是獎勵一過之後"},{"start":10658.315,"end":10677.062,"text":"委員其實很感謝大院委員中小企業這一次加薪抵稅有針對65以上那我們就給了加薪抵稅這樣的誘因這是非常謝謝委員那當然禁用可是禁用你要不要用一個強制性的概念在法律裡面規定齁"},{"start":10679.483,"end":10695.761,"text":"我要你們思考的就是說韓國是一種模式它很積極然後它也才一種就是必須優先禁用的概念但是我們台灣我們沒有那我們其實比較是重輔導用獎對但是"},{"start":10696.081,"end":10706.833,"text":"你可以看到如果過去4年它的成長是這麼的緩慢可能也遇到了瓶頸還有剛剛提到的現在實務上你有一些的獎勵的確是獎勵期過了看起來是衝著獎勵而來獎勵期過了然後就失去那個動力我覺得這一些的問題都必須要解決跟處理"},{"start":10716.024,"end":10734.143,"text":"委員過去幾年每年成長1%其實有10萬人欸其實也沒有很差啦真的可是因為而且過去3年有疫情那個整個內需的就業市場其實中高零主力都會在內需就業市場所以再來的成長率應該是會蠻可觀的你預計會成長幾%"},{"start":10738.087,"end":10744.67,"text":"我們希望再來還是每年至少一定要10萬以上我們有一個70%的目標我們有一個70%的目標因為現在67嘛現在大概67%對希望能夠我們希望能盡快達到70%的目標這我不敢這樣子打包票對可是希望能盡快來達到好嗎對好"},{"start":10761.577,"end":10788.636,"text":"我覺得中高齡就業已經是一個趨勢也是我們不得不面對的一個問題那所以我希望這件事情勞動部要再加把勁有成長但是還不夠那經濟部今天來那麼多部會這個也不是只有勞動部的責任我希望各部會都要動起來好不好就是我們促進中高齡的就業特別是女性的部分我們讓他可以28.3%他們渴望重返職場希望他們這樣渴望"},{"start":10788.996,"end":10798.599,"text":"都可以變成真正的就業好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員接下來我們邀請這個蘇清泉委員謝謝主席我請行政院"},{"start":10815.633,"end":10834.858,"text":"蘇勇副處長還有我們何部長來我先請處長回一下這個今天提出這個壯世代請問行政院的態度是什麼"},{"start":10837.271,"end":10852.164,"text":"謝謝委員那依照10月17號國會在最新的人口推估的部分我們明年就要進入超高齡的社會然後2070年的話我們老人人口的比例是佔到46.5"},{"start":10854.125,"end":10880.159,"text":"在全世界裡面我們僅次以南韓的47.5我們更比日本38.7還高所以為了這個高齡社會我們是很快速的在人口老化所以吳委員提出了有關於壯世代的話我們現在目前在高齡社會白皮書因為高齡社會對策方案之外之後再提壯世代"},{"start":10881.98,"end":10910.292,"text":"院長執政委員已經開了3次專案會議那我們在10月31號的話會請勞動部會會診各部會的提了一個壯世代的現在齁來我插一下話你現在說有什麼老人福利或中高齡三十幾大堆啊骨肉骨瘦就是大堆齁啊沒有統合名稱還沒統合就剛才廖偉祥講的那老人齁你自己說叫老人他很不會送的"},{"start":10911.68,"end":10925.752,"text":"所以用壯世代這個名我講不錯啊對你呢?我們台灣的輸送率全世界最低的名啊所以你現在用你現在這個保守我跟你講生的孩子也是一樣越來越少"},{"start":10927.208,"end":10927.949,"text":"我也是共同提案嘛齁"},{"start":10942.926,"end":10959.361,"text":"所以民進黨、國民黨、民眾黨、大家都一起去今天現在要站出來審一下而已當然啦,這樣是比較倉促但是大家要說要公聽會、要辦協調或什麼都可以我一定是照辦但是我們希望"},{"start":10960.422,"end":10984.275,"text":"行政院用一個任務編輯,院長什麼交代,這樣就有多大效率,陳時中來扶植,陳時中就老婆坐那邊,就叫老婆陪我們去寵跟政委報告,就是說有關老人的定義的話是在老人福利法,這是國際上的話,我們65歲是老人,那壯世代的部分在國際上現在是沒有定義的"},{"start":10985.333,"end":11000.435,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11001.09,"end":11025.709,"text":"您說您是壯世代,我想這個名詞用法律定義就要考慮了。第二個,我們現在針對壯世代這個議題的部分來講,院裡面也高度重視。所以陳正偉已經開了參辭會,剛才也報告過。他組織來講已經由院長主持的社會福利推動委員會下設的一個專案小組由陳時中正委來負責。"},{"start":11026.73,"end":11051.807,"text":"那我們10月31號也會把在勞動部這一個方案推在執行方面我們認為用方案計畫來推就可以了方案計畫就是臨時編組、任務編組、因人涉事那些藍波的就沒力氣了嘛還要問一件事,委員長你站起來我要再問第二個就是我們六處,柏定,柏定你要回答"},{"start":11057.03,"end":11073.585,"text":"我們65歲以上的男人的在就業還在上班的才十幾趴嘛對不對然後女性更少六點多趴那比韓國比日本二三十趴三四十趴所以這一塊真的你要把那七八百萬人"},{"start":11075.868,"end":11082.49,"text":"每年儲蓄率有20幾%所以我們每年的那個錢可以用的是四五兆五兆多捏所以我們的金管會啊我們的那個都都都都不知道怎麼處理這都可以做很多事情"},{"start":11104.639,"end":11105.2,"text":"委員．審查委員．審查"},{"start":11119.704,"end":11126.907,"text":"所以現在的醫療院所醫生65歲也沒有退啊公家醫院現在也是66到74一年一年聘啊然後到70歲以上就變成顧問醫師那像高一退下來的教授我們在東港請他們身強體壯啊80歲"},{"start":11150.017,"end":11171.146,"text":"還會很公平還會打爵士所以Case by Case所以說65歲以上就沒有辦法說那是笑話但護理的更糟糕護理的幾乎35歲以上的不該上班啦過年啦一千個禮喔太可惜了啦每年進入職場的20歲到24歲的進入職場稀有情郎"},{"start":11177.369,"end":11201.168,"text":"結果30幾個會退出組長：也4、5千人所以林俊宇說什麼要到2030年要給幾萬人的副理組長我才看他怎麼做所以那個不簡單所以勞動部我覺得你來主責也不錯啦因為事實上這個跟你們最有關係啦那個行政院長蘇先生我感覺他這個要繼續撒"},{"start":11203.495,"end":11206.021,"text":"繼續審然後如果民進黨這邊有提一個法案我們一起來審"},{"start":11207.328,"end":11229.525,"text":"看看怎麼改當然這個裏面有一些還要再改那公聽會一次不夠我們辦兩次幾次都可以我認為這是一個思維的改變也不要一直排斥任務編組我還是不放心啦所以要給我們市長想問一下你的65歲以上的健保他要自己錄你想要叫他就一定要對他怕就要讓他怕到"},{"start":11236.133,"end":11258.641,"text":"這位老人,不要說老人,這位65人想說我們要自己熱鬧嘛我自己的經濟不就不錯?你叫我們熱鬧,你是造成年輕人更大的負擔而已啊這個要改,馬上改好不好這個我覺得這個,因為現在40年次50年次那一代是最苦的時代資源最匱乏,但是它也是"},{"start":11262.083,"end":11285.992,"text":"現在大家都存了一些財富,也比年輕人更健康當然有孫子有三個,這當然一定有,但是這些人他自己有幫他養活自己,自己有的財富還不錯的,你都讓他自己繳嘛這個不用到什麼一定要給兒女掛在兒女身上,年輕人一定很辛苦,這個也要改好不好,不改我主動會幫你改"},{"start":11288.176,"end":11292.078,"text":"好我當招偽不能浪費時間吼來感謝委員謝謝我們蘇欣欣委員好繼續我們請舊政經委員質詢"},{"start":11316.938,"end":11334.498,"text":"主席還有各位各部會的代表大家午安我今天看到速發部有來何部長你可以坐著休息一下我們請速發部的副署長陳副署長好請陳副署長"},{"start":11346.996,"end":11358.622,"text":"陳副長您好我想請教您一個問題業者在網路上販賣違法的東西說法部如果知道了會怎麼處理?是指販賣違法的東西然後跟打詐有關係的嗎?"},{"start":11374.42,"end":11385.543,"text":"沒有?其他人你不管就對了?因為目前我們在...所以你們的業務是只放在打仗那其他一些違法的這些網路行為你們都沒有在管?"},{"start":11386.577,"end":11406.729,"text":"我們根據就是說我們主管機關的部分比如說如果他是就是純電商的部分那那個部分的話我們會去查核然後會根據那個查核的結果來處理那如果說是所以不是你們在查所以你們都不會知道就對了"},{"start":11407.998,"end":11425.243,"text":"那你們平常在幹嘛?是指主動查核嗎?因為我們數位產業署他很大的一部分是在協助這個數位產業經濟的一個發展所以呢你們只負責打詐跟其他的部分這個網路亂賣東西的你們都沒有顧問?你們都不知道嗎?"},{"start":11432.932,"end":11454.107,"text":"因為我最近發現就是昨天的議題就是看到很多電子菸在網路上在亂賣那當然也有在賣那個依託米子的所以我想這麼嚴重的事情你們抒發部都不管嗎?我們會看說那一些業務是不是屬於我們的主管的範圍所以你們的主管範圍是什麼?"},{"start":11455.083,"end":11481.646,"text":"我們主管範圍就是有關這個數位經濟的部分比如說是數位服務或者是不是我們因為每一個因為這個實體的世界是實體的世界其實比虛擬的世界就是虛擬的世界其實是比較大的所以每一個部會他都有自己主管的一個業務因為你這樣講就數法部給人的感覺就很幽靈"},{"start":11482.887,"end":11504.225,"text":"好像什麼事情都跟你們有關係但是你們表現出來的就像現在這樣子什麼事都跟你們沒關係其實我們會幫助各部會來處理一些事情包含我們自己有的一些業務我覺得你們速發部真的要檢討那今天你們的報告行政院因應超高齡社會提出的對策整合了15個部會112年到115年就投入1200億的這個經費你們速發部佔多少經費"},{"start":11512.142,"end":11537.398,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11537.93,"end":11542.014,"text":"你什麼都不知道你來幹嘛?樂齡好幫手累積瀏覽次數有7萬4千多次那每天點進去的點擊次數大部分都是個位數這是什麼原因?"},{"start":11554.451,"end":11581.648,"text":"因為我們是10月下旬的時候我們才上線的所以我們目前就是還在推廣你們當初設計這個網頁的時候是給誰使用的?預計是要給誰使用的?給幾歲的人使用?這個部分我們本來預計是給65歲以上但是後來就是說院裡面有協商所以我們現在是他的照顧者也是可以所以呢通常50歲以上的也是OK的也就是壯世代就對了是"},{"start":11584.704,"end":11588.152,"text":"好那我們回歸到今天的主題我們請何部長謝謝"},{"start":11594.409,"end":11623.548,"text":"我們審查這個《壯世代產業政策與產業發展促進法草案》我想最上位的政策綱領應該是高齡社會白筆書並制定因應超高齡社會對策方案在112年到115年共有15個部會投入1200億元營造友善的高齡社會那勞動部在108年底也公布了中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法"},{"start":11624.93,"end":11638.944,"text":"今天這一部法我們渴望進一步落實這個壯世代產業創生那我看了各部會的報告幾乎都沒有回應這部法都在自己講自己的工作你覺得問題在哪裡"},{"start":11640.82,"end":11655.131,"text":"委員我們事實上現在都已經在做了我有看到你們是在研議叫做壯世代社會參與促進方案對 這就是行政院的態度是要提方案而不是要提這個促進法就對了"},{"start":11656.032,"end":11685.097,"text":"是的,我們對第一個我們贊成壯世代的這樣一個反年齡歧視的概念這個我們絕對支持可是要上綱為法律就值得商榷所以比較保留那我們現在是用行政院因應超高一點社會對策方案由陳時中政委主持由勞動部來統籌整理所以這個方案未來是我們促進法的這個配套還是政院版的替代方案"},{"start":11686.208,"end":11686.879,"text":"就是不立法就對了"},{"start":11688.079,"end":11716.512,"text":"我們比較不傾向用立法來處理我們用行政院的這樣的行政指導的因應方案來處理這樣子因為而且我們行政院本來是院長我們都提出這個提案了啦我們大家都提案了我覺得很多委員都有在連署那我覺得這兩者是相輔相成的我希望行政院以及各部會團隊應該認真的嚴肅看待這部法的制定提出可行的對策方案盡快讓大家都能夠滿意"},{"start":11719.894,"end":11733.745,"text":"最近我們看到勞動及職業安全衛生研究所做的一份報告表示我國實施近鄰排碳政策將衝擊我國高耗能產業的衝擊電子業所當其衝估計明年就會有一萬人失業這是你們講的對不對"},{"start":11744.193,"end":11758.018,"text":"委員這個我要澄清他有一個前提是在沒有做任何因應措施的狀況下才會產生這樣的數字那你這些數字怎麼如果說沒有提一些因應措施的話那你們這些數字怎麼來的"},{"start":11759.324,"end":11762.607,"text":"對,就是說這是一模型,它的模型的參數它設計就是相當單純就是說你這一個淨零碳排的這樣的政策下來可能產生的對企業增加的成本會導致它可能會解雇人或者是裁員官場等等這些啦可是呢"},{"start":11779.426,"end":11780.588,"text":"我想請問一下經濟部對於這個部分你們是怎麼看?"},{"start":11796.397,"end":11797.198,"text":"所以你現在是跟勞動部是一國的嗎?"},{"start":11816.836,"end":11834.891,"text":"我沒有平台因為在勞動部的報告裡面有一點很重要就是說其實89%的人力是不受到影響的對啦所以你們是經濟部是站在產業跟我們的勞工站在一起嘛對不對那現在要"},{"start":11838.114,"end":11854.217,"text":"我覺得是我們那個環境部是一頭很努力的往前衝那你們的方向跟我們這個環境部有一樣嗎?有一致嗎?我們有發現這個問題但是我們有去做一些配套措施"},{"start":11854.997,"end":11882.052,"text":"我當然知道我也希望你們站在各自己的立場來為你自己的部會所負責的業務來捍衛該捍衛勞工的該捍衛產業的我們當然就一定要做好你的本分那麼當然我希望你們三個部會就是勞動部還有我們經濟部還有我們環境部能夠好好的做三方的協調好不好讓這件事情能夠盡快的來把它完整好不好謝謝"},{"start":11884.383,"end":11887.246,"text":"好,謝謝經理委員、謝謝部長還有署長接續我們請吳春城委員質詢好,謝謝主席我們請何部長另外也請經濟部還有金管會還有衛福部"},{"start":11910.925,"end":11922.218,"text":"為什麼請四位呢?因為四位就是壯世代的四大金剛。四大金剛,為什麼說四大金剛呢?在這裡我要提了一個..."},{"start":11931.201,"end":11958.373,"text":"為什麼說四大金剛呢?經濟部就是對於有錢有那個的但是他們有東西可以買我們要發展這個長壽經濟這也是符合現在經濟部大健康產業的一個國家政策的目標但是壯世代沒有起來你那個產業是做不起來的啦第二個金管會要做什麼呢?金管會是三分之二財富都在壯世代的身上"},{"start":11959.534,"end":11978.776,"text":"但是大家的省吃減肉那個錢沒有釋放出來變成食水經濟食水經濟導致年輕人低薪沒辦法創業所以要把金管會就是要把財富釋放出來然後再來的話需要勞動力就是勞動部這很重要再來的話衛福部"},{"start":11979.777,"end":11979.998,"text":"議員．審查委員"},{"start":12001.761,"end":12015.201,"text":"幾乎大概溝通的非常狀況都非常好那也都是包括這一次到10個部會提出的報告書裡面也都是大家都所有在做了啦大家都配合朝這個方向"},{"start":12015.922,"end":12031.136,"text":"那我看不出說這個法到底哪裡不可行這個法跟現在在做有什麼抵觸之處應該是我們在幫行政部門與法有據讓你做事情更方便為什麼做這個法"},{"start":12031.596,"end":12056.645,"text":"那現狀的問題會什麼?現狀來我們看一下現在那個我要謝謝那個我們卓院長因為行政院成立這個壯世代的小組是他核准的所以那陳時中政委也非常的認真一開始我們只有指定6個部會後來他自行的擴張到13個部會因為越研究越深越覺得這是全面性的問題"},{"start":12057.685,"end":12065.105,"text":"但是推動了3個月下來的結果也提出了64項的計畫。64項就像各位所看到的"},{"start":12066.331,"end":12090.697,"text":"展現出來的一個什麼狀況呢就是只能做會編因為他只能照沒錢沒人沒有什麼都沒有沒有法律依據只能按照現有的工具現有的組織編制做一些現有的狀況拿來大會編而已這樣一個大會編如果能夠解決國家臺灣未來發展的人口問題的話早就解決了啦"},{"start":12091.577,"end":12109.325,"text":"為什麼現在會講說我們情況人口更加惡化更加嚴重就是表示現行是不足的所以我們現在包括沒有預算我們看一下我問調查的各部會幾乎很多的預算都是編制是零"},{"start":12110.405,"end":12135.301,"text":"那像剛才我們那個邱委員提到的速發部你知道我們現在高齡的數位落差達到60%在台北市就60%60歲以上的人是沒辦法有效的使用數位的所以呢這些東西大家都做有在做在做什麼的教育部、終身教育師現在在做的編到6億啦全部丟了今年還增加2010、2014年6億"},{"start":12137.458,"end":12138.119,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":12152.478,"end":12175.374,"text":"整個的大大小小所有的問題如果不積極地照現狀的問題能夠解決嗎到我當中我會非常肯定經濟部跟金管會其實在他們的報告書當中他們發現這是一個大好機會發展經濟包括金融釋放財富釋放勞動力大家所看到的不是現在的眼光所看到的叫做銀髮海嘯"},{"start":12176.795,"end":12202.744,"text":"都只想靠政府的社福的補貼各種的補助這是要民間一起來這是要全民一起來的覺醒運動因為面臨的是天翻地覆的事情整個人口完全的倒置所以這件事情也沒有什麼創新來那個只是在日本人家30年前就有我們只是跟上腳步而已並不是什麼好像哇全世界都沒有我們在做什麼創新的事情下一頁"},{"start":12204.423,"end":12228.45,"text":"現在最重要的其實各方面都到了各方面都冒這個已經普遍的這個也不是現在出來在民間已經推動了4年了各方的媒體你去Google全部都在使用關鍵在政府有沒有決心有沒有決心要帶領的台灣做轉型做翻轉需要各部會大其實大家都沒有問題不是現狀的問題就可以解決立這個法"},{"start":12231.391,"end":12259.753,"text":"謝謝!"},{"start":12261.001,"end":12266.123,"text":"謝謝吳委員 謝謝次長還有部長接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席楊瓊發言首先請勞動部、衛福部、經濟部我們一起來討論這個案"},{"start":12296.007,"end":12315.575,"text":"好 謝謝壯世代成為現在職場非常熱門關鍵字過去呢我們中年轉職不易到半途沒有人要請所以呢企業普遍喜歡運用這個年輕人但是我們也看到少子化的問題國發會在10月17號做了一個公佈2020年到2070年"},{"start":12321.897,"end":12345.794,"text":"二零七零年我們會減少人口八百多萬人換句話說二零七零年二零七零年國發會所公布的我們台灣只剩下一千五百人一千五百人CIA的公布美國中情局公布我們是全世界少子化生育能力第一名"},{"start":12346.875,"end":12369.446,"text":"最後一名所以剛剛我也跟國防會的主委在討論要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那所以提出了壯世代之所以必須要有這個法也就是讓政府能夠去看到這個問題而且也有所依歸怎麼樣去做大家贊不贊同這樣的一個論點"},{"start":12371.258,"end":12400.154,"text":"三位都頻頻的點頭委員我非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心我想那個也非常佩服委員的這個的vision那我想剛剛何部長剛剛也說了就是說作為一個反年齡歧視我想這是一個好的idea那可是現在有個問題現在就是說他現在目前這個所謂的壯世代他有三個不明確第一個是整個學術概念上不明確第二個是整個法律概念不明確第三個是政策適用上不明確"},{"start":12401.054,"end":12418.682,"text":"您現在所回答的這三件我要感謝英明的召集人排定了這個議程因為我們已經看到臺灣面臨的困境問題在全世界生育率世界最後一名看到我們的人口"},{"start":12420.483,"end":12440.217,"text":"2070年我們只有1500萬人看到這樣子的一個憂心所以提出這樣的一個方針透過我們的法律案透過大家檢討所以我希望待會回答的各部會首長代表人你們應該要就針對既然你們剛剛三個都頻頻點頭就針對我們討論的議案"},{"start":12446.781,"end":12474.299,"text":"他是一個新的東西本來我們立法院所提出的討論也就是互相共同去討論討論才能夠擦出這個火花應對目前台灣所面對的困境而不是只有一句話說這個法律外界不明確他本來就沒有當然不明確嘛這就是現在要討論的啊對不對所以我希望我們在討論是要有內容的而不是只有一個擋牆"},{"start":12477.282,"end":12492.736,"text":"給他擋起來,這樣子不好的所以呢你們也點頭我們就繼續來討論台灣的人口紅利剛剛我說的那個數字我們已經逐漸消失我又看到2023年勞動高齡的這個勞動的報告當中台灣65歲65歲的高齡者參與的只有9.9"},{"start":12501.184,"end":12516.898,"text":"那我們要看到全世界現在國外經濟部我們全部都要跟世界接軌所以我們要看到其他各國他們的作為這才是一個有為的政府的部門應當要做的所以我們看到我們只有9.9勞動部長在這裡我們看到韓國38.3日本25.7美國19.2"},{"start":12525.646,"end":12542.878,"text":"那我們在少子化的情況又人口一直下降的情況我們要怎麼樣來加入我們的這個產業人口勞動人口世界各國有這樣的比例我們是"},{"start":12545.86,"end":12560.734,"text":"十趴都不到在這樣情況之下我們要怎麼樣去因應請教勞動部長是各位報告其實我們從109年中高齡專法設立以來啦每年平均增加10萬人到現在已經增加38萬人"},{"start":12562.395,"end":12577.649,"text":"的中高齡就業人我告訴部長您的方案您有努力我們看到但是我們一定要結果論你現在所做的還是全世界最低那我們有什麼精精方案可以滾動式的去檢討加速對"},{"start":12579.631,"end":12604.383,"text":"這也就是為什麼我們的預算要重溢該當部署因為立法院不可以給你加預算我們錢要花在刀口上我希望可以聽到您也就是你在努力當中現在你所做的都對但是我們的答案是僅有9.9我們跟世界各國比例差那麼多我們還有什麼因應方案因為"},{"start":12605.484,"end":12608.206,"text":"我們現在正在努力加速推出各樣的獎補助措施"},{"start":12628.801,"end":12654.653,"text":"對,包括55 plus壯世代就業促進措施我們針對還有包括婦女在就業還有就是婦女在這個中高齡的族群這個也是本席一直跟你討論的啊他不要生了一個孩子回不了啦 對不對你要怎麼樣讓雇主讓他的職場環境他能夠放心可以回得了啊對,我們在這方面都有給雇主也有給勞工都有獎勵措施你把你來"},{"start":12655.873,"end":12674.8,"text":"勞動部你把你進行方案就本席所提出我們65歲以上的高齡者勞動參與率只有9.9跟世界各國差距那麼大的時候你要怎麼樣進行方案你給本席好 謝謝我馬上就可以提供給您了馬上給我提供本席本席不答應你這樣子的回覆"},{"start":12676.55,"end":12696.048,"text":"你現在是全世界最低你還把現在有的剛剛本席在講的精進方案你把你現在做的還是一樣9.9啊本席要你的你已經做了我也給你贊許但是你要去精進方案啊在這裡回答不要隨隨便便"},{"start":12697.029,"end":12714.177,"text":"已經告訴你9.9不生氣都不行對不對你去精進方案好不好好謝謝你多久時間告訴本席好好你兩個禮拜告訴本席你的精進方案接下來本席衛福部不健康於命我們現在"},{"start":12715.538,"end":12739.955,"text":"不健康與命的部分因為我們要整體性橫向全部來連結我們看到65歲以上的高齡人口我們是468萬人占總人口的20%而且一直在增長那我們看到內政部所公布2023年平均與命我也嚇一跳欸你們男生只有76.94要小心女生83.74"},{"start":12742.196,"end":12771.033,"text":"平均是多少?平均是80.23雖然我們有較前年度增加0.39那麼其中在這樣的一個年齡我們又看到一個數字讓我會緊張我們國人平均不健康的餘命是高達8.5年這個跟世界各國我們的召集人是專家這個跟世界各國來比較我們又是第一名"},{"start":12772.148,"end":12797.986,"text":"也是糟糕的第一名所以在這樣的一個情況之下我要請教我們衛福部市長不健康的餘命高達8.5年我們要怎麼樣去降低因為這個會牽扯到我們的勞動力怎麼降低我們要怎麼降低非常感謝委員垂詢我想大概我們現在目前賴總統他有一個健康台灣的一個方案對你十二期見"},{"start":12798.786,"end":12799.307,"text":"務必要加速"},{"start":12814.77,"end":12834.221,"text":"因為你已經8.5 8.5年跟世界各國來比我們是拉太長了所以在這樣的情況之下怎麼樣你的2.0必須要速度加快到3.0世界訊息萬變我們如果依照原來的歸宿速度這是跟不上潮流的怎麼樣加強"},{"start":12836.082,"end":12836.102,"text":"市長﹖"},{"start":12864.229,"end":12885.051,"text":"你這個回答本席也沒有辦法接受因為你的兩萬五到三萬九這是循序漸進多久時間累計上來我們將近在快八年的時間對你越講大家越沒有辦法接受嘛所以我們看待的是我們目前所面臨到的困境你要怎麼樣進行跟剛剛勞動部一樣"},{"start":12887.214,"end":12907.791,"text":"我希望就針對我們不健康的平均餘命8.5年你們去精進方案好不好這個非常重要因為你政府有政策出來民眾會跟著走對不對我們已經看到答案不能就攤在那裡好不好你去精進那個方案給本席最後一個議題我覺得非常的重要長壽新經濟"},{"start":12911.828,"end":12934.848,"text":"經濟部也在這裏,我們看到臺灣壯世代我們三分之一的人口跟三分之二的財務顯示我們壯世代的消費率是最強的你現在去看社會、走路、運動的幾乎都是這一個壯世代的人口有的提早退休要找第二春的工作環境的有工作生活的就在這裏所以"},{"start":12935.609,"end":12941.052,"text":"市長在這裡我們針對於長壽新經濟你政府要怎麼樣去協助這些的產業你怎麼樣去培植新創的這個產業鏈能夠達到我們消費者既然你知道會消費的人就是在壯世代55歲以上這一環那我們要怎麼樣去推動長壽經濟發展"},{"start":12960.143,"end":12960.263,"text":"請教次長。"},{"start":12978.643,"end":12999.053,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":12999.053,"end":13014.65,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":13014.71,"end":13021.099,"text":"市長你剛剛回答的是很美很美的一個境界但是這個計劃要能夠落實這個方案是怎麼樣你們大概多久時間可以把你這個長壽新經濟的商"},{"start":13033.695,"end":13047.811,"text":"我們一個月把那個方案給委員一個月喔因為這個整個聯動效應是非常的大而且我們要就地取材取我們的優點讓我找個為英雄有經濟能力來消費的我們幫他協助"},{"start":13049.633,"end":13079.394,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":13082.498,"end":13084.381,"text":"好謝謝楊委員 接著我們請陳穎委員"},{"start":13103.982,"end":13117.507,"text":"謝謝主席因為不好意思因為我實在是看不出誰是主的機關所以我就麻煩請今天列席的官員請大家上台謝謝那個吃便當就坐著繼續吃沒吃的吃完再過來好不好好 謝謝慢慢吃啦"},{"start":13137.018,"end":13142.102,"text":"我國的總人口數將低於23百萬人"},{"start":13168.707,"end":13190.134,"text":"在就是統計顯示45歲到65歲的工作人口在2037年就會突破五成那顯示說勞動人口高齡化將成為一個趨勢因此我們今天討論的這個中高齡的相關政策計畫是有它的必要性那今天這個草案"},{"start":13192.595,"end":13208.185,"text":"的確有一些需要被討論的問題首先就如同我剛剛不知道要請誰上來我們的主責或者主管機關並不是很明確在這部草案裡面"},{"start":13209.105,"end":13233.172,"text":"草案裏面的就是說由行政院下設的這個壯世代政策辦公室它統籌整合各目的事業主管機關的權責並且是由這個行政院長擔任召集人所以各機關首長還有政委、學者、專家擔任委員那所以按照這樣的一個邏輯今天理應站在這裡來備詢的應該是行政院長"},{"start":13236.054,"end":13244.461,"text":"我本來是想請教昭偉說我如果現在會議詢問說我們要不要暫停大家一起等那個院長來這裡備詢那我們先等昭偉一下"},{"start":13249.541,"end":13275.757,"text":"好了我放過他那這個院長就是說對阿按照這個邏輯應該是今天卓院長要來這裡備詢嘛好那這個我們用這個辦公室用辦公室這個層級去實行整個這個委員制的這個統統整目前我們好像沒有這樣子的慣例吧應該沒有那"},{"start":13278.38,"end":13296.84,"text":"所以我也不曉得就是說未來如何能夠執行的好以這樣子的一個設計來看那舉例而言部會首長負責的業務被討論的時候然後他自己本身又是委員那他扮演的角色就會有衝突嗎"},{"start":13298.742,"end":13326.241,"text":"那有說代表部會的委員你在會議中然後你要報告你的執行成效然後你又可以提出檢討的意見本席對於這些兼任委員的機關首長還有政委你們必須要用這種人格分離的方式角色扮演我是感到就是說無限的同情那針對這一點不曉得哪一位可以來說明一下"},{"start":13327.622,"end":13352.529,"text":"非常感謝委員的隨詢,因為確實就陳副委員剛剛所說的這個確實在整個主責跟這一個相當主管機關確實是相當有不明確性的問題那因此我們現在目前其實在院裡面其實本來我們就有一個我們的一個高齡社會白皮書還有另外有一個我們有另外有一個郵政委他來他來擔任我們跨部會之間的協調那到目前為止其實運作上老實說也相當的這一個順暢"},{"start":13353.789,"end":13380.112,"text":"就是說這裡面當然就是說大家可能覺得就有若干需要精進可是這是我們到目前為止因應這個問題我想整個在整個組織上面來說我想是最可能是最有效的一個方式對那你們內部運作順暢但是到時候你們要開始報告的時候又要提出意見的時候到時候這個分裂的狀態人格分裂的狀態就必須要呈現就會呈現出來所以我反正我就"},{"start":13381.073,"end":13383.415,"text":"第二條這個壯世代政策的定義本期認為太過於偏狹"},{"start":13407.896,"end":13428.586,"text":"那這個草案的明定他是強迫大眾認為喔就是55歲高齡者他一定是能賺能花又活蹦亂跳沒有生病的長壽者按照這個草案裡面的定義是這樣喔每個人就是要幾百萬元你才可以符合叫做壯世代"},{"start":13429.566,"end":13455.498,"text":"所以要這個協助他們持續成為生產者還有消費者然後提升他們的生活品質降低社會福利的負擔我想這樣的定義其實也是跟我們目前各部會都已經在做的政策其實沒有區隔我們是有往那個方向舉例說勞動部主管的這個中高齡及高齡者的這個就業促進法"},{"start":13457.158,"end":13479.235,"text":"那不就是這個法就已經是讓他們在持續就業成為這個經濟的生產者嗎?對不對?那再相較說第一條的這個立法目的這個如海嘯般翻轉的格局這樣子的定義是實在是我看是有點很這個虎頭蛇尾然後狗尾敘雕啦"},{"start":13480.285,"end":13502.985,"text":"因為本席認為這一點就是也是大家要重新去審視。你們有沒有要回應一下這個部分?是委員,對,就是您推選的事,就是您講的問題就處在這裡,對。好,對,就是那如果沒有能賺能花又活蹦亂跳那幾位外領的就被歧視了嗎?對。"},{"start":13507.829,"end":13518.817,"text":"第三點就是這個草案呢好多好多的重點就像就真的重點太多然後反而看不出重點在哪裡那我們用一個這個"},{"start":13520.678,"end":13542.021,"text":"我今天講了很多次這個翻轉銀髮海嘯人口變遷所生的新社會放在立法精神裡面然後從而衍生出實現世代經濟的循環創造跨鄰共榮、韌性永續之目標我想一般民眾的認知可能是很抽象"},{"start":13542.967,"end":13555.746,"text":"那甚至就是會覺得不曉得要做什麼感覺啊本席的直覺是啊經濟循環就是沒有垃圾的意思啊世代的經濟循環啊世代不是在講人嗎"},{"start":13557.795,"end":13560.176,"text":"每個人都必須成為有用的人"},{"start":13587.194,"end":13607.311,"text":"我也是覺得很疑惑所以我們大家是不是來思考一下如何讓這個民眾能夠更了解這部法案的精神與目的所以第一條本席也是建議大家就要好好的討論一下這偉大的翻轉印法海嘯以及人的經濟循環我很在意這件事情"},{"start":13608.217,"end":13623.779,"text":"好那最後一點呢就是有關於第15條的健康預期壽命的統計這點的利益非常良好但是我們現行所謂的平均餘命跟這個平均這個差別是在哪裡可不可以回答一下OK好"},{"start":13624.76,"end":13648.88,"text":"報告委員我們現在目前的整個所謂的通常這是WHO他們也有一個定義就是所謂的Disabled Health Year就主要指的是屬於需要長照的這是WHO他們有一個特定的一個定義那現在目前就是說我們現在目前的預期壽命當然這是屬於人口學他們的一個定義那我們現在目前我們承認我們現在目前確實有8.585年的這一個"},{"start":13652.483,"end":13658.928,"text":"市長講的就是我們早就有這個不同世代的這個平均移民的統計啦那但是現在在這草案加上了這個健康預期壽命這到底是要怎麼樣的調整"},{"start":13679.604,"end":13686.721,"text":"舉例喔就是說身患重病的人他可能可以延續很長的存活時間一直躺在病床上"},{"start":13687.856,"end":13716.048,"text":"但是因為不健康所以他的品質生活品質就是很差嘛對沒錯那健康與其壽命你要怎麼計算而且健康的定義他是一門專業那這個當然這個世界衛生組織的定義也涉及到就是說精神跟心理的層面是沒錯所以這個將來要發布健康與其壽命相較於平均餘命一定會比較短"},{"start":13718.569,"end":13736.023,"text":"將來你要怎麼去解釋說明說這兩個估計值是相差越少還是相差越多才能夠凸顯這個國家的進步這個是大家要去思考的問題那這個也是非常的專業我們就是要請專家學者專業人士來規範會比較好啦"},{"start":13742.428,"end":13764.383,"text":"我能簡單補充一下您剛剛所說確實沒錯現在在國際上面這個其實都還有一些爭論我舉個例子比如說有一個叫做ICOP就是所謂的健康與命的一個估計另外一個是WHO他們自己本身的定義可是在學界裡面其實基本上都還有一些不同的看法所以目前有明確的研究方法嗎"},{"start":13765.183,"end":13787.651,"text":"到目前為止就我剛剛說的就是所謂ICOP還有另外就是WHO他們現在目前都有不同的一些定例那這個我們會來後續我們會來做這部分更進一步的這一個這個深化研究好所以目前你也是打問號啦就是說目前各家都有一些他自己本身的就一律一律這樣子是沒錯好不好好那總體就是說"},{"start":13790.013,"end":13815.835,"text":"欸這樣說來就是整個中高齡的這個政策齁因為我現在我很不想用壯世代因為按照這個草案的定義我真的覺得人不能成為沒有用的人對沒錯沒錯那欸委員對不起我能不能再簡單的說一下就是說稍微要請坐我要抗議喔剛才你對楊瓊英委員很好他有三倍的時間所以我不要求比照辦理我兩倍就好我剛有在算喔五倍喔對不起那"},{"start":13818.035,"end":13834.312,"text":"我沒有5分,5分是0.5倍而已啊好啦他就要補充你就多給他時間吧我也是簡單補充現在就是說對於退休這個國際上是有一個明確定就剛剛說65那中高齡其實ILO他也有明確定就45"},{"start":13835.213,"end":13853.029,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":13853.029,"end":13883.029,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":13883.529,"end":13891.713,"text":"早上程序不發言了好感謝趙委員就把我早上時間挪到這裡來謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長次長繼續我們請賴瑞隆小港的好謝謝主席先請行政院的蘇處長蘇處長"},{"start":13915.089,"end":13939.838,"text":"市長,我先請教,其實現在包括少子化,包括高齡的社會都來臨,其實這是台灣嚴肅要面對的問題,其實很多國家都在處理這個問題,剛剛我在經濟委員會剛剛談了一下少子化的問題,我認為這個是確實需要重視,那當然高齡化是另外一個問題,怎麼樣讓這些的高齡的他有能力的也願意再繼續的能夠怎麼,我覺得確實是一個課題,"},{"start":13941.098,"end":13960.087,"text":"那我首先還是要回來講這些事情其實行政院也在做啦各位也在做了嘛那今天要過這樣的就是要來審這樣的一個法的時候我先問一下他這個立法體力上面我看起來是比較特殊一點的齁 處長怎麼看我們也是解的啦齁第一個就是說他算是什麼樣的法"},{"start":13961.493,"end":13982.278,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13982.918,"end":14007.966,"text":"這個國際上是沒有對壯世代有一個定義所以這個部分來講確實我們對整部法認為說用法規範來講壯世代這個相關的作用我覺得它反倒比較有點像基本法的概念就是應該要怎樣應該怎樣但是它其實沒有賦予比如說得社利基金會包括我認為它看起來反而比較像基本法的精神反倒不像所謂的作用法或者是其他 我覺得反而不像啦"},{"start":14008.306,"end":14015.856,"text":"所以我覺得也許在將來在討論的時候可以再慎重思考一下啦他的體力上那再來我也想請教啦他的主管機關到底是誰"},{"start":14017.486,"end":14017.666,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":14047.534,"end":14068.097,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":14068.294,"end":14093.458,"text":"那另外一個就是說實務上我們有關於壯世代這個部分來講因為政務委員開三次會我們10月31號院長要召開社會福利推動委員會他勞動部要做一個報告那事實上我們在組織裡面來講針對壯世代的議題已經做處理了而且院長也在負責的社會福利委員會裡面然後政務委員也負責一個專案辦公室這個組織的架構跟處理已經都有了"},{"start":14093.578,"end":14115.872,"text":"就現在在運作上面其實已經在處理類似的事情了但是你現在突然通過一個法也定的不是那麼清楚的狀況下然後又出現了這個包括因設立一個辦公室而且是由院長兼任這個體力上也非常的奇怪包括他的將來的幕僚或是他的作業就是說我們一般通常會讓某個部會來擔任一個重要的一個主責單位但是這個又沒有"},{"start":14116.352,"end":14138.629,"text":"行政院長跟就大概就你們幾個處而已啦其實人力上各方面其實都非常的吃緊就這樣子在進行這件事情到底能不能達到他的成效所以我希望在未來的公聽會或甚至在內部的討論我覺得這個要慎重在討論後面的這個體制的問題包括他的單位啦那再來我也想請教一下啦包括我也看到了他這個"},{"start":14141.407,"end":14146.841,"text":"財政上的問題他得設立一個基金這個基金如果設立了現在由誰來管理"},{"start":14148.769,"end":14173.878,"text":"因為規範也不明確而且設計金的話由院長自己來管理財政紀律法裡面規定來講這個有關基金的設計院長管理可能就是你管理欸因為你是這個處的負責的對不對所以我說整個體力上非常的奇怪完全不照我們過去所走的所以我覺得這裡面有非常多要來深切的討論的就是立法院立出來法的品質要達到一定的水準那我認為才要不然的話會造成很多的一些困擾"},{"start":14174.498,"end":14174.919,"text":"接下來請教一下何部長好不好"},{"start":14192.108,"end":14211.55,"text":"委員好是那個高齡化的問題其實大家都在面對包括怎麼樣這些勞動力的部分他本身有意願的也讓他能夠更參與進來的齁那我看到其實有很多都已經在在進行當中那我看到老闆部現在有一個是中高齡跟高齡的一個促進法的部分有相當成效部長對現在這樣的一個推動的進度滿意嗎"},{"start":14213.803,"end":14240.543,"text":"基本上現在其實有達到一定程度的效果啦而且這從專跑推動也來到現在增加了38萬的中高齡就業人口就大概明年大概10萬多10萬多是是是對而且都超過對大概超過10萬對但是我們在看的話其實相較於其他的包括美國日本韓國的部分其實周邊幾個好像還有很大的空間是沒錯我們相較於他們都偏低是沒有錯"},{"start":14241.263,"end":14257.754,"text":"部長怎麼認為我們怎麼樣可以來來我想今天這個有一個目的也是這樣他們希望能夠讓那怎麼樣讓有意願也有能力能夠怎麼來提升對我們就幾款旗下一個是行政措施獎勵啦包括像55plus就業措施獎勵婦女在就業獎勵不只針對雇主也針對勞工而且還有像植物在設計部分工時這一些機制的設計我們也都甚至都有獎勵所以現在是先用鼓勵"},{"start":14271.543,"end":14281.546,"text":"來引導那麼其實在這一個年齡歧視方面當然我們也在中高齡法裡面也都訂定不得歧視都要你如果有歧視行為的話雇主要罰30到150萬這樣子的罰款"},{"start":14286.448,"end":14305.414,"text":"所以其實目前大概有法律面還有包括行政獎勵措施面我們希望能夠來疾管其下還有包括委員你們今年謝謝你們在制定的中小企業加薪抵稅對65歲以上都還給他加薪的抵稅的優惠這樣子這個還有包括勞基法54條"},{"start":14307.654,"end":14323.042,"text":"我們通過了合意退休就是不限於65歲你只要勞資雙方協商就可以延後不限65歲退休這樣子我們希望部長持續的努力我看到現在我們的55到59歲的也都在這次的"},{"start":14323.822,"end":14324.422,"text":"接下來請翁曉琳委員質詢"},{"start":14356.499,"end":14363.827,"text":"謝謝主席。這邊有請教育部司長嗎?司長好。今天次長沒有來"},{"start":14379.697,"end":14407.095,"text":"沒關係 不過我這邊待會會有一些意見希望司長可以待會去反映給部長還有次長知道我覺得今天開衛環委員會今天開這個壯世代政策促進法的公聽會這是非常有意義的因為在同時間在經委會那裡則是談少子化的議題所以我們同一天一方一個委員會談少子化然後我們這裡則是談壯世代"},{"start":14410.777,"end":14438.642,"text":"從這次的這個會議的安排裡面可以反映出我們現在社會結構的確是在改變少子化的問題那麼它會帶來社會的影響而我們所看到的這個高齡化的問題其實同樣的也會帶來這個社會的影響以及這個社會的未來的發展也要改變那本席因為之前在清大教書所以我特別重視有關於高教的問題那麼面對少子化"},{"start":14440.183,"end":14458.301,"text":"教育系統看起來現在已經出現了嚴重的衝擊也就是我們看到很多學校退場或者是現在教育部也鼓勵大專院校彼此之間合併那麼有些學校呢它內部也在做組織方面的收編、縮編"},{"start":14459.983,"end":14480.172,"text":"同時也反映出還有一個問題就是教育資源也出現有過剩或浪費的情況因為學生變少了那麼整個教育的品質出現兩極化然後實質結構也會出現失衡的狀況我們現在看到有不少的流浪教授失業過去是流浪教師現在"},{"start":14481.132,"end":14505.552,"text":"早就已經幾年前吧就已經開始出現了一堆的流浪教師很多國外留學回來的博士其實也沒有也找不到工作這是其實這個少子化的問題其實已經衝擊到整個高教那麼所以呢現在我們正好來推動這個壯世代政策我倒是覺得對於教育體系來講他可能會是個契機怎麼說呢我們現在可以鼓勵"},{"start":14507.062,"end":14529.797,"text":"更多的壯世代的民眾有機會可以再加入我們的整個的教育系統尤其是大學的教育體系我們中國人不是講說一句話活到老學到老對於壯世代可能從年齡45歲或是55歲那麼到他這個中間退休然後體力還很好的這段時間裡面其實是可以來"},{"start":14532.203,"end":14533.685,"text":"我個人認為說這個都是非常重要的"},{"start":14551.583,"end":14578.726,"text":"我們知道其實教育部他過去有推動一些高齡化的這些教育措施包含設置樂齡學習中心啊然後在大學裡面也推動所謂樂齡大學計畫但是事實上成果不是很好也就是教育部可能給的資源也不夠多然後呢另外一方面呢也沒有說很積極的在promote這一塊所以我這邊想聽聽看就是司長您的看法"},{"start":14580.28,"end":14603.565,"text":"謝謝委員大概面對這個少子女化跟高齡化大概特別是像之前就是這個吳委員在談到這個壯世代的問題我們大概今年底我們就會有一個大概針對55歲以上的一些這些年齡的這些族群我們就會讓嘗試讓他們再進行類似植物的再設計還有讓"},{"start":14605.365,"end":14611.029,"text":"市長,因為我剛剛聽到您的這個key point 就是你是希望未來讓他們能夠再投入職場可是本席正好有個另外的想法其實應該要鼓勵他們重返學校"},{"start":14626.78,"end":14651.194,"text":"對在我們的壯世代的這個促進法草案的第9條裡面其實也有鼓勵大家未來都要能夠有這個開發我們的開啟我們的人生第三人生大學那麼如果說從這個角度來講的話那教育部其實應該就要開始去規劃要去設計一些誘因如何能夠讓鼓勵壯世代重返校園"},{"start":14652.434,"end":14652.554,"text":"市長的發展"},{"start":14676.254,"end":14705.862,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":14706.202,"end":14729.555,"text":"所以這裡我本席也建議教育部應該再去積極地研習一些更多可以鼓勵這些壯世代重返校園讀書或是接受一些教育的措施方案比如說我們可以比照像是一些弱勢族群或是其他的鼓勵"},{"start":14731.221,"end":14752.883,"text":"教育政策是不是可以未來沿你這壯世代重返校園可以學費減免或是得到相應的補助然後另外呢如果他去讀書的話他這是不是這個他是受撫養了因為可能退休了以後他就必須由他子女撫養所以這個教育的補助費也可以就是來來抵稅"},{"start":14754.882,"end":14776.909,"text":"市長,其實這邊都是我們針對有需要協助的這些民眾我們都會來考慮來協助那大概我們目前有在規劃當中就是會來準備發放的是針對有需要來發放終身學習卷我覺得不要說是針對有需要而是你現在措施這個定下去之後它就應該普及化這樣子才會產生誘因嘛對不對然後呢是未來大家讀書"},{"start":14780.671,"end":14785.258,"text":"而就可以有學費減免,因為他會帶來其他不同的效益"},{"start":14786.368,"end":14811.54,"text":"是,那同時呢如果說我們可以多鼓勵他們以後在申請大學的時候也有類似特殊選才或是有些特殊的真實方法不要說跟著大家高中生一起去搶名額而是有另外的特殊的申請管道那我相信一定會有很多的壯世代的民眾會很樂意的再重返校園那麼這個其實對於提升壯世代的身心健康是有幫助的"},{"start":14811.92,"end":14812.02,"text":"謝謝委員﹚謝謝市長"},{"start":14840.205,"end":14852.389,"text":"那發言太踴躍了所以我們在王振旭委員質詢完畢後休息15分鐘我們請劉建國委員發言好謝謝主席主席很厲害今天把八個部會都找來太棒了八個部會對台灣高齡者政策"},{"start":14867.714,"end":14882.105,"text":"有具體的研擬的相關的項目的請上台對高齡者政策相關面向有具體政策的還有相關法律依據制定的請上台"},{"start":14894.022,"end":14923.668,"text":"那就全道了嘛對不對那對中高齡者有具體的政策全部的面向有具體政策的請留下中高齡者你們都有委員您要指的是我第一個針對高齡者的有訂定相關面向政策的就留在這個台上嘛對不對那第二個"},{"start":14924.54,"end":14948.888,"text":"有含中高齡者有訂定相關面向政策的就請留在台上,沒有就請回去含中高齡?含中高齡一定有的含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中高齡?含中"},{"start":14952.506,"end":14979.232,"text":"你們先確定一下吧你們確定有我想這個人口快速的變動大家都非常清楚不是今年年底就是明年年初那最早在10年前是評估起來是到2026的時候台灣要進到超高齡的社會嘛對不對好然後現在提早一年就是2025那我個人感覺是到2024就12月底應該就達標了那達標之後什麼叫超高齡"},{"start":14980.51,"end":14995.015,"text":"當台灣的政府更多部會講說針對高齡跟中高齡都有相關這個面下的政策相關的法律在做這樣的應應那請問一下何部長你有針對超高齡者的部分來做處理嗎委員是指65歲以上嗎對"},{"start":14999.179,"end":15008.747,"text":"我這邊就是有中高齡就業促進法嘛那裡面當然就涵蓋了高齡65歲以上是兩塊不一樣的嘛中高齡跟高齡45到65是中高齡他們都有嘛他們剛才上來都是有喔"},{"start":15017.23,"end":15028.649,"text":"麻煩拜託各位剛來上來的把你們的高齡跟中高齡相關的政策面向法律依據提供給本委員會做參考剛剛有上來的部會"},{"start":15030.133,"end":15058.108,"text":"麻煩你一下你今天下午這個召委話喊休息前沒有提出來那我們大家就再請召委再排一次好好來檢討這個事情我為什麼會特別這麼問當台灣面臨到這個人口的結構快速轉變過程裡面在兩年前生不如死然後我們現在面對超高齡然後這兩塊坦白講就要讓台灣的所有的政府部門要很積極快速來做這個因應"},{"start":15059.4,"end":15065.351,"text":"那我必須要講高齡者的一個全面的面向的政策我們有定嗎?"},{"start":15070.727,"end":15086.854,"text":"委員,我們在行政院有因應超高齡社會對策方案。對策嘛,不是政策嘛。是,是,那是行政做事含法律。我們有針對高齡者的一個上位計畫嗎?有嗎?有啊,行政院這個就是啊。而且從這個...因應超高齡社會對策方案。"},{"start":15091.616,"end":15112.283,"text":"那在這裡面我們今年再加進了中壯世代參與促進方案可是壯世代是這個方案這是外加的應該就是因應超高點社會對策方案好因為我們都在臺灣嘛然後你在公部門我們在民意機關嘛那想這個人口快速的改變最主要"},{"start":15112.483,"end":15141.408,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":15143.188,"end":15155.711,"text":"是全面含15個部會每一個部會都有方案421項措施他是院長當任召集員陳時中政委主持實際執行什麼時候訂的"},{"start":15166.345,"end":15187.035,"text":"委員這個在20我們在111年蘇院長時期就已經有這樣子的機制了那麼到今年今年這個機制當然蘇院長上來之後蘇院長繼續擔任這個召集人那麼陳時中政委主持了這一個"},{"start":15187.655,"end":15211.342,"text":"因應高超高齡對策方案的這樣子的一個規劃跟執行因為你當過副秘書長應該對這事情很清楚但是我還是請何部長還有各部會今天的代表可能要再回去檢視一下吧因為你如果跟台灣的百姓講說我們中央政府有訂一個來因應超高齡相關的這個對策"},{"start":15213.102,"end":15232.572,"text":"的這樣的一個積極的作為基本上那簡單就再講一句話說你知道台灣的老人政策是什麼嗎?高齡者政策是什麼嗎?你知道台灣百姓你可以去做民意調查台灣百姓會回你什麼?不會回你那個叫做超高齡的因應政策會回你什麼?你知道嗎?就會回一項而已啦"},{"start":15234.291,"end":15257.029,"text":"長照2.0長照2.0是一個很重要的區塊但是這樣就本末倒置了為什麼叫本末倒置?長照服務法的定義是什麼?長期生理心理自己沒辦法治理要人家跟他料理那就是長照照顧的對象那如果台灣老人的政策是用長照2.0來focus的話"},{"start":15258.786,"end":15285.479,"text":"那就代表臺灣的這個超高齡未來都要進入到長照都是身體心理長期自己沒辦法治理要讓人家料理所以這個是錯誤的所以我是要特別跟你表達就是到目前為止就讓我的感覺還有普羅大眾的感覺臺灣針對超高齡的政策因應政策對策基本上他有這個輪廓但是不是很清楚啦"},{"start":15287.264,"end":15308.284,"text":"我要跟你表達是這樣所以這個請各部會是不是可以特別去思考一下那當然也給貴院就行政院也要特別去思考一下這個你講蘇院長的時候我在總質詢也都問過了但坦白講可以現在馬上來檢測了是有問題的這第一點那第二點因為部長你就留著我就持續問勞動部了"},{"start":15313.35,"end":15326.933,"text":"這個上個上禮拜就問這個臺灣居委通部長看一下這個是又是勞動力發展署嘛這個應該部長機由心上禮拜我們討論的是在職這次是職檢你們這個職檢宣言完有一個叫做高齡者專區課程這應該是提供給高齡者在就業的一個培訓課程嘛對不對是好這是什麼狀況"},{"start":15339.979,"end":15355.789,"text":"你現在有電腦幕了,有電腦可以馬上按一下它出現什麼?BUG是不是?BUG是什麼意思?BUGBUG是什麼意思?"},{"start":15357.632,"end":15376.029,"text":"請署長回應一下我們這個台灣就業通這裡面我發現這裡面可能我們在那個系統的設計上是有產生問題所以我們一些課程現在裡面沒有辦法去呈現出來對啊為什麼會這樣剛剛部長的開宗明義我們針對高齡者跟中高齡者我們就是有這一個就業促進法對不對那你的網站為什麼會出問題"},{"start":15383.356,"end":15405.233,"text":"好沒關係我們再看45歲到65歲叫中高齡嘛對不對好你的45歲到65歲的之前的這一個訓練碗是什麼你提供給我們這些中高齡者要來做什麼之前訓練拖車司機連結司機連結了連結了是35棟啊如果連結了又拖澳大老家不是35棟整棟你自己去請看嘛夜間物流司機"},{"start":15412.441,"end":15422.814,"text":"水域活動教練我不曉得部長對老花鼠每個這種中高齡者的這些工作的之前訓練你有什麼看法"},{"start":15425.507,"end":15448.266,"text":"我講一個例子我曾經要在我們母縣讓這個夜醫牙醫急診可以來落實然後當時有嘉義市提出來然後雲林縣也提出來結果嘉義市到現在還在做嘉義縣雲林縣到現在不到半年就撐不下去了因為平均的牙醫師差不多都在55歲"},{"start":15450.131,"end":15450.871,"text":"委員什麼報告一下"},{"start":15479.189,"end":15497.683,"text":"沒有職業講出來沒有職業這是就業徵才的一個登記我們其實因為45歲以上基本上是都在我們這樣的一個我沒有說45歲不用做這些事情但是你是45到65歲這個Range叫中高齡我就講清楚那你覺得來沒有這樣的職業"},{"start":15499.424,"end":15525.381,"text":"OK嗎?委員其實45到65歲其實對於一些資深的一些職業駕駛的司機可能他還是有這樣的一個能力那當然這個我們會做一些適性的一個我就會講說我們有說一定不行嘛那你們有做過相關的評估嗎?你們職安署有沒有其他的意見?職安署職安署在嗎?你們職安署跟老化署有TEST有共同坐下來討論說沒和這樣的"},{"start":15529.045,"end":15551.697,"text":"要重體力,要熬夜,然後放在這個中高齡的領域裡面。可以嗎?這樣好嗎?報告委員,我們治安署有訂那個有關於中高齡就業的這個安全衛生的指引。那我們跟勞發署在這個促進就業包含植物災設計的部分也有一些合作。"},{"start":15553.055,"end":15578.548,"text":"就是要注意這些被就業者就是被推介者他們在職場上的安全與健康那委員講這個我們會再跟勞法署再密切配合所以你們現在才開始要密切之前都沒有密切再更密切一點你覺得這幾個項目對中高齡是來沒有治安署的角度是適合的治安署請治安署回答是適合的嗎"},{"start":15580.786,"end":15609.379,"text":"這些齁都是高耗能體力的欸對啊可能有些是產業別那也要顧慮到這個就是求職人他的個別的個別的他的身心狀況啦你們有做過相關的一些評估嗎應該是我們的勞安所或是說國際上應該也會有一些業別的調查有關於這個風險的程度然後南日署當然會去調查阿你們治安署的立場呢其實還是要看看業別的這個風險是不是適合中高齡有做風險嗎"},{"start":15611.155,"end":15612.015,"text":"有沒有給老花鼠意見?"},{"start":15635.094,"end":15652.994,"text":"還是沒有?你回答我就好有沒有?有沒有給意見?委員45到65這中間其實說真的45你說到55基本上這個都算現在都還是算年輕他擔任這種工作我可以認同"},{"start":15653.715,"end":15658.338,"text":"對,可是我要跟您強調,他們這還不算危老行業啦這個大概我們在,我們就是說在這一個因為你如果說是45真的是現在還是算相對體力是OK的你的責任署已經在委員會講說這些屬於高風險的啊"},{"start":15683.311,"end":15699.104,"text":"指安署已經講了啊不是就是說我們指安署這個部分這個行業它是不是高風險你要去看它在實際從事的時候它的那個狀態吧就是說"},{"start":15702.494,"end":15726.02,"text":"你還給我回來了,不好吧,我是提醒這事情就是說我們要訂定高齡者跟中高齡者的相關的運營政策的時候要非常的嚴謹,訂了之後要有辦法去執行然後你們兩署如果對這一個基本上沒有共識那最好就是不要放上去這對勞動部絕對是正面的事情嘛"},{"start":15727.635,"end":15742.312,"text":"這個我們回去檢討啦謝謝啦把那個指引再做一個更精細的行業別的檢討對啦你們應該是針對這個風險評估嘛對不對相關配套嘛還有這個就業的環境嘛這個可以給我們一個正式的研究報告再給"},{"start":15743.033,"end":15763.384,"text":"我們委員會做參考好不好因為我坦白講這個臺灣就業通110年度裡面編了1億嘛那明年好像是好像再多1000萬都不多啦但是就像上禮拜我講那個事情到這個禮拜又是這樣的一個狀況那可能部長要特別注意喔那我事一直是對事我沒有在對人的啦這大家應該"},{"start":15765.078,"end":15783.156,"text":"應該委員會都非常清楚但是如果我一直針對這個部會還是針對這個單位這個機關那對酒的時候對事對酒的時候就會變成對人我不希望發生這種事情因為我們現在討論公共的議題嘛對不對我不需要去對人好謝謝謝謝建國雄接下來我們請吳宗憲委員質詢"},{"start":15797.433,"end":15818.595,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩勞動部長部長,我想說從數據上面來看,其實我們現在臺灣的中高齡的勞動率只有64%那其實是遠低於日本、南韓還有美國的數據"},{"start":15820.14,"end":15833.141,"text":"所以說在我們面對現在台灣有一些缺工的問題的時候其實鍾高麟他的參與也是一個很重要的這個解決缺工危機的一個問題那我想請問一下對於這勞動力短缺目前勞動部有什麼計畫"},{"start":15834.95,"end":15855.71,"text":"對,我們從109年就開始有中高齡就業促進法所以其實這三年來已經補充了38萬的中高齡勞動力來進入就業市場那麼再來還會必須更加強因為我現在看就是說我們現在不以勞動部來說我們以國家整個政策來說我覺得國家對於中高齡的"},{"start":15856.531,"end":15872.821,"text":"政策面其實他主要著力點還是在照顧面就像剛剛那個劉委員講的一樣他一直講說這個是在什麼照顧面的這個國家還是主要在這個計畫所以說像我們那個長照的支出2020年是好像386.7億然後明年我們是編到849億等於是這56年就漲了69.8%"},{"start":15883.448,"end":15903.263,"text":"所以這個東西我們從這個角度去看政府對於這個中高齡的人他的錢是花在怎麼樣長照但是對於所謂的壯世代的一些就業國家所提他所編列的預算或是他的著重卻不在那個地方所以"},{"start":15904.204,"end":15925.32,"text":"我覺得說這個年紀的人剛好是生活經驗最豐富的時候那因為現在像剛剛一直討論到那種健康的平均餘命等等的角度去看那事實上這些人其實剛好他的工作經驗最豐富而且依照現在人的體力其實這個年紀還體力非常的好"},{"start":15925.981,"end":15946.237,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":15946.317,"end":15946.477,"text":"議員．審查委員．"},{"start":15974.311,"end":15999.212,"text":"是當然這還是需要改進的那有的甚至到那2.7年然後什麼那個不同職業別他那個狀況不太一樣也就是說其實每一個中高齡他已經有一點年紀了但他想要回到職場他卻要花非常長的時間那反而是這些時間也是等於是讓他年紀又個人更長那是不是說"},{"start":16001.464,"end":16010.904,"text":"國家再思考怎麼樣給這些人提供長照之外勞動部這邊也能夠多花一點精神對於這個壯世代的就業啊能夠"},{"start":16011.809,"end":16036.515,"text":"再多努力一點不要說中高齡他們到現在還是很多人都不容易找到工作嘛因為我看到你們的報告還有寫說什麼什麼好幾種計畫嘛那這幾年受惠的好幾萬人但是數據上面來看他們還是必須等兩年以上的時間才有辦法找到工作所以這個東西並沒有辦法說我就已經做了一個很好的政策很多人受惠"},{"start":16037.475,"end":16064.899,"text":"那這也就是為什麼這麼多委員他其實是支持這個壯世代政策跟產業發展促進法為什麼大家會支持這個是因為我們希望把壯世代的這個力量能夠用到社會上面可以解決很多缺工的問題那甚至這壯世代呢我們也要讓他們對生活還是有一些有所期待啦否則到2070年嘛我們依據那個數據來看一個生產者要養一個老人"},{"start":16065.339,"end":16094.634,"text":"也就是說一份收入要養兩個人那這個其實對於年輕人的負擔也很大那最後我還是希望說跟部長分享一個就是我們之前看那個高年級實習生這個好像美國電影他其實他就是講一個70歲的一個人他回歸職場那他用他過去的經驗然後讓一個新世代新創產業的一個時裝店他回復到更好他變得更"},{"start":16095.194,"end":16120.368,"text":"做得更好所以他那時候他有一句台詞就是說音樂家不會退休只要心中沒有音樂才會停止我相信很多中高齡的人他們對於這個社會或對於工作或對於自我的要求其實是滿滿的活力是不是說我們請部長將來也能夠支持我們對於這個促進法的推動然後我們一起來來把它做好看部長最後部長有什麼想法"},{"start":16123.361,"end":16135.129,"text":"我支持壯世代這樣的反年齡歧視的這樣的概念的倡議,可是它要形成一個法律就比較保留啦,還需要討論好嗎?"},{"start":16139.532,"end":16160.843,"text":"議員可以再討論我們不是質疑說你到底同不同意我只是說希望我能夠了解到你的想法是什麼那當然法案的部分立法院這邊還是會想辦法去推動因為明年剩兩個月我們就超高齡社會了那超高齡社會之後我們總是還是要有一些因應之道嘛我們都會老小孩子也會長大那總是要處理這個問題好不好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":16165.213,"end":16169.036,"text":"謝謝吳委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請黃孟楷委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩我們勞動部何部長行政院內政衛福勞動處書處長好不好也麻煩一下來"},{"start":16191.189,"end":16214.682,"text":"何部長辛苦喔到現在喔不過我想先請教一下因為今天早上聽說我們衛環委員會一開始的時候沒有辦法順利的進行詢答那最主要是有一些委員在詢問那甚至還有程旭發言然後還特別提到說不清楚說到底壯世代什麼叫壯世代定義不明定義不清請教部長壯世代是什麼"},{"start":16216.827,"end":16221.092,"text":"來部長你知不知道你們勞動部在今年2月有一個55plus壯世代就業促進措施"},{"start":16235.689,"end":16249.624,"text":"是你今年2月55plus壯世代就業促進措施啊你不知道你說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了那你難道不知道壯世代是什麼"},{"start":16250.595,"end":16268.701,"text":"再來今年9月2號勞動部的臉書喔勞動部攜手壯世代迎向就業新時代和沛山部長親接雲嘉南銀髮人才中心資源然後為勞動部壯世代就業網路再添亮點"},{"start":16270.787,"end":16293.063,"text":"9月2號你們臉書上宣傳壯世代就你現在說你不知道這個定義我不是說不知道是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議啦這我是支持的那當然這個法案裡面是說50歲以上可是我認為當然現在有很多委員認為55歲以上不清楚啦有很多委員認為不清楚但是我們行政部門都很清楚啊"},{"start":16293.763,"end":16310.734,"text":"甚至吳春城委員在質詢總質詢這個行政院院長卓龍泰的時候卓龍泰表示他自己就是吳春城口中的壯世代所以連院長都清楚他就是壯世代的時候為什麼我們現在還有定義不清定義不明的問題"},{"start":16311.454,"end":16327.326,"text":"但是委員就是說我們講的定義不清是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義所以這個會變成各說各話比如說吳委員講的是55歲以上或者是我們行政好我們也見到這個概念可是我們覺得這一個東西它"},{"start":16330.589,"end":16360.589,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":16360.829,"end":16389.421,"text":"可以再討論再來第二個部分大家都已經講了其實我們對於人口的問題非常的擔憂因為我們真的是沒有人口紅利了嘛尤其是像明年三個月後65歲以上的人口就有20%全台灣五個人以上就有一位是65歲以上是不是這樣那現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會討論的就是少子化的現況對策交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工的問題"},{"start":16390.541,"end":16399.523,"text":"所以今天光我們立法院7個委員會在開會的時候就有3個委員會其實核心概念價值都是一個缺工嘛"},{"start":16400.478,"end":16429.394,"text":"我們為什麼會討論壯世代就是希望說延長退休的門檻讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續的付出投入我們討論少子化經濟發展也是認為是說我們現在缺工的問題很嚴重交通也是一樣沒有駕駛國道客運一般的公車大貨車沒有找到駕駛啊那這問題難道不嚴重嗎所以其實部長我覺得這就不能只是從勞動部的本位主義來看啊"},{"start":16430.374,"end":16441.605,"text":"還有其實這一個法案我為什麼我也共同提案一起希望能夠有這個立法就是因為它其實是政策跟產業發展重點在於是產業發展"},{"start":16445.575,"end":16472.357,"text":"年長者中高齡者他絕對不會是障礙他反而是一個助力以前我們的觀念會覺得說中高齡者可能他體力衰退了或說什麼樣所以說他可能對於產業不利但是現在的醫學進步以及科技發達反而中高齡者他的經驗如果能夠傳承的話對於產業是有有益的是所以我現在也請教一下處長不好意思處長您上來我其實最主要是要請教"},{"start":16473.058,"end":16496.057,"text":"因為我有看到行政院的報告是講是說院長已經有責成我們的政務委員陳時中已經開過三次會是不是那說10月31號會報行政院會會報什麼樣的資料給行政院會?老人部會提一個壯世代的社會參與的促進方案他會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會"},{"start":16498.021,"end":16517.348,"text":"所以他會提壯世代的社會參與對促進方案那如果說這樣的話又跟剛剛部長講部長不是講是說不能用壯世代這個名詞不要用壯世代這樣那就勞動部自己要提壯世代的就業服務方案公務員報告因為剛才部長也提到壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的可是我們會推動因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的是"},{"start":16520.089,"end":16534.016,"text":"為了要推動這個方案的話我們把壯世代稍微定義說是針對55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者因為這邊考慮到說我們現在有超過13%的話是失能者年長到一個階段沒有錯這個其實大家都理解嘛"},{"start":16542.941,"end":16566.901,"text":"就是說可以投入勞動市場的人他本身如果說是有身體疾病或是真的他無行為能力當然我們不能把他算進來啊是啊所以在整體推動上我們是支持說用方案計畫來推動因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書跟應用超高齡社會對策方案在服務以現在我們長照2.0要把它提升為長照3.0"},{"start":16568.662,"end":16591.409,"text":"希望未來建構的,再搭配壯世代的部分建構是一個完整的、高齡的政策方案拜託跟麻煩因為你已經有在行政院、政委這邊有開過會但是幾個觀念一定要帶回去第一,日本也有很多的長照他是以初老來服務中老有55歲、65歲的人來服務75歲、85歲的人"},{"start":16595.1,"end":16619.006,"text":"那這就是一個銀髮共榮共存的概念第二,延長這所謂的這個退休年齡以外怎麼樣能夠讓產業有更多的誘因能夠來禁用而不是認為是說他們是老人企業這個部分也要方面去思考還有第三我覺得最重要的是為什麼會提出壯世代就是因為過去用銀髮用中高齡者"},{"start":16620.626,"end":16640.753,"text":"會讓大家會有一個比較負面的標籤所以說才會希望是說符合現行的民意現行的民情壯世代他們是壯世代對比是什麼就是輕壯世代嘛輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人那45歲以上以前叫我不知道處長你有沒有看過"},{"start":16642.273,"end":16662.874,"text":"甚至有媒體報導啊上街頭遊行這是確實的他說上街頭遊行我看到了51歲的老翁他也站出來了你有沒有看過這種報導有記者連線的時候他說哇今天非常熱鬧這個遊行大家站出來了連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了來我們請教這個老翁的看法"},{"start":16664.068,"end":16679.51,"text":"這以前人家這樣子連線你會覺得好像但是你現在聽我這樣講好像覺得哪裡怪怪的因為現在其實連71歲我都不一定覺得說如果說他體態保持良好身體健康肌力夠他都不一定可以稱為老翁對不對"},{"start":16681.431,"end":16694.577,"text":"我們期待行政院有拿出真真正正符合民情的版本那我們也希望未來這一個法案在衛環委員會進入到主條的時候我們再討論而行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":16713.274,"end":16717.575,"text":"好 謝謝主席 大家再拎來一個吳浩安何部長部長好 我想今天到現在同樣的一些問題一直在請教部長還有相關的我們的官員所有委員其實都很關心就是我們如何能夠針對一個中高齡甚至是高齡的長者"},{"start":16740.523,"end":16756.833,"text":"從臺灣需要的角度來請他們共同繼續替臺灣怕病我想最重要的重點應該在這裡那我們也知道有很多的努力包括之前我們也通過了65歲到底退休了可以有什麼其他的辦法"},{"start":16757.834,"end":16769.939,"text":"所以我們今天就希望針對於在相關的法案裡面有提到要兩年之內要提出一些相關的補助或政策上面的理解所以我們就把它定在63歲的時候應該做什麼提供給部長這邊來做參考"},{"start":16773.681,"end":16797.075,"text":"那經過這個勞基法50條修訂以後大家都很擔心到底執行上有沒有什麼困難實際上能夠做到什麼樣的一個可行的機會之下來協助這些即將退休的勞動朋友可以做哪一些事情所以變成如何能夠讓勞資雙方知道政府有補助方案的申請"},{"start":16798.876,"end":16823.919,"text":"這些申請以後如果有做跟沒有做造成了影響有沒有機會麻煩勞動部這邊來做後續的分析這就是這次我們希望提供跟部長來討論的地方那我們也知道其實通知勞動朋友有哪一些權益目前都有在執行當中比如說清零退休金或者是相關的他的一些權益"},{"start":16825.18,"end":16825.3,"text":"議員．審查委員"},{"start":16842.654,"end":16863.277,"text":"我們可以看這個在54條修正以後就是年滿65歲就可以透過勞務雙方來協商延後那在中高齡跟高齡者就業促進法29條裡面的第一款第一項就是說要前兩年裡面要提供相關的這些補助措施而且需要"},{"start":16864.037,"end":16864.257,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":16887.623,"end":16894.569,"text":"的這個勞參率只剩下9.6相較於南韓跟日本真的是差非常的多那60到64歲之間從39%變成9%這個就是我們如何能夠讓這一群人有機會提高他的勞參率"},{"start":16903.497,"end":16909.984,"text":"所以如果我們希望能夠有機會達到像日本跟韓國一樣的勞參與的話那我們如何能夠先讓這個63歲64歲的這些勞動者能夠參與那這是我們所知道的人口數"},{"start":16918.952,"end":16918.972,"text":"對,這因"},{"start":16946.486,"end":16962.305,"text":"委員我們就是指說這一個中高齡法今年修正以來在65歲退休前兩年就應該要準備計劃這個部分對這個因為法令剛通過我們正在緊鑼密鼓的規劃規劃這一個"},{"start":16966.124,"end":16966.564,"text":"對 那麼這些我們都現在正在規劃進行中這樣子"},{"start":16984.469,"end":17010.667,"text":"因為我們是7月才開始啟動嘛所以到現在為止差不多將近只有5個月時間可能會慢慢的累積一些相關的資料那也可以進行後續的分析我們後續也會來統計分析那相信剛剛楊承英委員也有提到為什麼我們的勞參率一直提升不起來他也希望部長這邊能夠提供相關的方案給他做參考"},{"start":17011.587,"end":17019.811,"text":"這邊我們其實是有一些政策上的遷移也可以跟這邊林部長來討論看看針對63歲的這些勞動朋友們當他到63、64歲的時候那勞動部能夠主動的通知"},{"start":17027.014,"end":17052.134,"text":"有就業補助這樣的方案那同時也能夠主動的去讓我們的企業主知道跟我們的勞動朋友可以協商延後退休這樣的可行性那最後呢也希望能夠有一個協商的指引可以提供給業主做參考那也可以當勞動朋友做參考那經過這個完整的配套以後我們就有機會去了解去統計調查為什麼"},{"start":17055.837,"end":17074.293,"text":"如果他在執行上有困難或者是執行有無法達到目標的地方我們可以做後續的政策上滾動的一些檢討不知道部長針對這樣的這個政策建議在執行上預期會碰到哪一些的困難或者是如何能夠再去做調控的部分"},{"start":17074.904,"end":17094.051,"text":"是,謝謝委員的這個建議,非常好像你前面講的勞動部主動通知中高齡就會補助還有主動通知可協商以後退休這個我們正在跟勞保局建立勾肌然後由勞保局的這個系統我們也許可以來主動來發送這些通知給勞工朋友"},{"start":17095.311,"end":17119.396,"text":"然後比如說像勞動部主動建立延退協商指引我請我們的同仁我們現在來研究這個建立這個東西這是有必要的是好謝謝那針對於這個中高齡的就業協助的部分其實我們也知道很多的環境因素會影響到這些中高齡的勞動朋友的就業的這些意願"},{"start":17120.376,"end":17137.472,"text":"我們可以看到一個數據就是如果是屬於技術層次三四級跟一二級其實就很大的不一樣對中高原來者對三四技術層次的這部分是有增加他的這個就業率反而一二層次就是會受到影響"},{"start":17138.973,"end":17162.711,"text":"之前的署分委員講得非常清楚不同的就業的這個需求跟環境其實不一樣所以我們也希望說在這部分看部長有沒有在對策上在執行過程當中需要再做滾動式修正的部分也希望從這個角度來繼續做多方面的這些延伸那最後針對今天的法案"},{"start":17163.894,"end":17191.516,"text":"其實我們很了解這個在理念上大家都非常的認同的確中高齡高齡的這些朋友們有需要有更全面的一些支應的方式來處理不過就好像我們討論非常多這個本法案的這個主管機關如果是在行政院的話基本上就不好不像是應該在衛防委員會裡面來說主要的討論"},{"start":17192.697,"end":17219.496,"text":"所以應該包括像內政委員會或經濟委員會來主審可能會更適合那如果有那麼多的部會的參與可能要聯席財政交通跟交易委員會這個都是未來在處理的部分我們需要去更了解那當然有公聽會由我們這個委員會或者是由立院來主辦的公聽會應該是可以讓更多的學者專家還有相關的人員一起來努力好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":17223.035,"end":17226.099,"text":"好謝謝部長謝謝王委員我們現在休息15分鐘齁"},{"start":17296.305,"end":17296.732,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":17416.732,"end":17417.227,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":17918.797,"end":17919.206,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18151.217,"end":18161.3,"text":"好好我們繼續開會邱益穎委員邱益穎委員邱益穎委員不在接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢好謝謝主席我想請何部長跟衛福部次長"},{"start":18182.681,"end":18182.761,"text":"委員好"},{"start":18203.846,"end":18232.504,"text":"我想次長這幾天我們總質詢的時候也提過現在台灣邁入所謂的超高齡明年就到了15年後將近會有30%的老人25年後將近有40%老人因為出生率太低我們現在已經大概就是跟韓國在比全世界第一名現在的問題就在於說我在禮拜二質詢的時候也問了一下現在你們今天的報告很重要就是企業現在也面臨到大缺工"},{"start":18233.044,"end":18233.304,"text":"現在的問題在於"},{"start":18257.648,"end":18283.961,"text":"下一頁現在在104調查的結果其實我們台灣的出生率這麼低但是我們可能勞動參與率沒有提高那現在日本老人人口也很多但是他的勞動參與率相對高於日本高於台灣很多在65歲以上我們只有9.9日本的勞動參與率將近25%也就是四個老人有一個在工作"},{"start":18284.901,"end":18312.64,"text":"在45到64歲我們的參與率只有60%日本參與率有高達84%所以部長同樣的我們今天這個基本法的概念就是希望讓各種產業各種政策能夠讓更多的壯世代投入所謂的勞動市場您覺得現在台灣的65歲讓勞動參與率要怎麼樣提高這些人是不想做還是不願做還是沒有友善的環境讓他們繼續投入勞動市場"},{"start":18314.855,"end":18341.482,"text":"委員首先就是說我們在109年中高齡專法推動以來其實是成長不少的有成長對增加了38萬這樣的中高齡老人我贊成但是我們現在成長不少還是只有9.9啦我的意思是說要達到不要到日本的程度至少到15%20%我覺得這是要繼續努力的地方委員日本跟韓國他會為什麼中高齡老人參與這麼高有一個"},{"start":18342.702,"end":18345.385,"text":"大問題是他們的下流老人非常多"},{"start":18360.18,"end":18379.987,"text":"我認識的公務員退休幾乎都是為了照顧長輩對照顧長輩成為他們最大的需求所以現在我在星期二總值群的時候有希望臺灣是不是應該開始提出所謂的長照保險制度比較全民健保的方式讓這些從德國從日本從南韓看得出來我們的"},{"start":18381.047,"end":18398.086,"text":"大家勞動參與率不高其實是老人在照顧更老的人更老的人他的爸爸媽媽八九十歲以前是可能早就離世了所以他可以退休但現在他退休辭職的原因是為了照顧更大的長輩所以長照保險是我希望衛福部要開始規劃的"},{"start":18399.207,"end":18425.916,"text":"可以嗎?我們那天秦部長已經因為他有去考察日本嘛所以是不是衛福部這部分還是要做出你們其實之前做過評估我希望能夠繼續往這個方向推動好的OK感謝委員我想任何只要對民眾有利的我想我們都是會來就是第一個所以可能長照就是讓大家現在出一點點錢將來照顧自己多一點而且不要讓我們的老人去照顧更老的人"},{"start":18426.856,"end":18450.415,"text":"這件事情是我覺得勞動部跟衛福部要一起來推動的好不好能不能容許我那個做一個兩點簡單補充第一個就是說任何的國家推動保險之前一定都會先經過先經過整個那個資源部件我簡單講我同意現在就是說你不能讓民眾他我付了保險費但是卻沒有沒有得到服務我同意所以日本他們在2000年他們的之前辦之前就用那個黃金計畫台灣健保之前我們用醫療網"},{"start":18451.716,"end":18472.651,"text":"我們目前在做資源佈建但是你們有點慢了希望快一點為什麼因為我們的明年就是超高齡社會了你現在還要再佈建的話我就會說衛福不肯失職這是800年前就知道的事你現在才要再佈建這是有點離譜而且長照已經從106年到現在了不是現在才開始佈建"},{"start":18473.331,"end":18498.514,"text":"當然好不好衛福部這個理由不太好啦麻煩麻煩把長照保險納入商業保險之前我們希望在全民健保全民納保的情況下能夠讓長照保險慢慢的上路同樣的現在就要開始做規劃就像當年沒有全民健保誰知道什麼是全民健保推動了以後現在的成果看得出來他其實解決了台灣很多很多醫療的問題"},{"start":18499.395,"end":18499.855,"text":"致詢林倩琦委員"},{"start":18524.415,"end":18524.815,"text":"教育部、文化部"},{"start":18543.928,"end":18572.167,"text":"那這兩個我想今天有點時間但是國發會、農業部、交通部都是我在這個今天這個議題《壯世代和產業發展促進法》裡面會關注的一些焦點所以謝謝張偉今天有這樣的一個議題首先這個勞動部長您比較辛苦因為現在的這個職司大概跟勞動部跟衛福部感覺上在這個區塊佔的比例非常大所以您今天一整天在"},{"start":18572.867,"end":18593.347,"text":"跟很多委員的這個詢答上齁其實我這邊有一些想法來跟您的做一些討論其實每個單位都一樣齁我記得那個濫委員其實呃對不起廖先祥委員還在找他提出一個類比在法規上的類比跟一個世界趨勢的這個進步齁其實我覺得他這個想法非常的好所以但是您在回答他齁是從這個殘障福利法"},{"start":18595.669,"end":18595.929,"text":"臺灣第一臺灣不因令風潮"},{"start":18615.828,"end":18639.07,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":18640.37,"end":18664.799,"text":"國發會這邊在討論就業市場還有這個整個國家發展等等的缺工的這個問題所以其實這整個東西其實應該一起來思考那壯世代提供這樣一個突破瓶頸的概念所以這是為什麼我們在這邊討論的所以在衛福的這個部分我來跟衛福部請議一下你有沒有覺得在過往的這個思維跟你們目前的整個政策狀態應該對於所謂的"},{"start":18668.496,"end":18668.616,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":18690.657,"end":18713.78,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":18713.94,"end":18714.28,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":18731.836,"end":18747.589,"text":"在日本201616已經啟動了社會5.0那他也不一定是照護那這個思維就是說很重要就是發展那很多我們這個年紀的人還沒有到一定被你們照顧的階段好不好所以這是一個思維上的調整跟改變"},{"start":18748.63,"end":18749.93,"text":"接下來文化部不好意思你們今天"},{"start":18773.357,"end":18800.269,"text":"我們中間是司長文化部本席其實在上個會期已經建議你們將壯世代納入文化幣的發放對象但是你們目前經費裡面沒有看到當然你們會有很多的想法但是我這邊提醒你們如果有機會把壯世代放進去它其實是可以對文化市場創造乘數效果它跟對於你們目前在年齡的這個區塊"},{"start":18802.07,"end":18821.215,"text":"的補助其實是不一樣的概念最後教育部教育部不好意思我要跟你們講那個列寧大學我們這個世代的人都被你們當成是這個什麼終身教育但是不要用這句話騙我們你們終身教育所目前的總經費大概只有36.15億那在整體的教育經費裡面1.98%"},{"start":18827.281,"end":18834.815,"text":"那整個我們不要講壯世代光是高齡的人口你覺得這個比例跟現在國發會算出來的比例平衡嗎?"},{"start":18836.309,"end":18860.232,"text":"這個回去要跟部裡面反映今天你們次長是在另外一個委員會然後派這個終身教育這從這個派的成績你不覺得好像對於壯世代難道我們真的沒有歧視嗎?對於高齡人口我們真的沒有歧視嗎?我想壯世代這樣一個法令的定定其實是想要告訴我們社會的實際現象是什麼?我們心裡沒有看到的自我現象是什麼?"},{"start":18861.033,"end":18869.237,"text":"所以我很期待這樣一個法令當然能夠用正面的思維去看待他我相信他能夠解決很多社會的問題謝謝謝謝林委員接下來我們請林國成委員質詢好謝謝主席大家辛苦了我們請勞動部何部長衛務部我們次長"},{"start":18890.407,"end":18913.537,"text":"行政院辦公室代表那其他的官員練習的話沒有請你們上來並非不尊重而是人數太多敬請原諒但是本席在建議的我也希望能夠聆聽進去然後能做的就做好不好來"},{"start":18915.162,"end":18937.908,"text":"好部長我知道大家都很辛苦但是我們針對問題談問題第一過去的時代通通稱呼老人老人啊最後覺得老人啊有所以言其事說改為英華族英華族啦那現在很難得可以談到"},{"start":18939.798,"end":18944.865,"text":"是壯世代那一來言語鼓勵二來是對"},{"start":18947.796,"end":18970.177,"text":"一些壯世代的一個鼓舞作用其目的為什麼要壯世代因為他老來友誼啊也就是一直何部長你從許明謙部長跟到現在你都一直在提倡壯世代的第二村的就業"},{"start":18971.945,"end":18992.895,"text":"這個成果是可以看得出來的啊但是代表什麼時代不一樣壯世代是可以用的但是我看到今天啊我們有一些委員同仁還有部長在打詢就是這個政策你支持這個法令暫時不支持我同意"},{"start":18993.815,"end":19015.605,"text":"但是要把成績做出來那事實上以現在看起來兩個最重要的要先行去推行一行政院辦公室既然認同院長卓院長也成立一個辦公室那第二個很重要的就是勞動部第二個"},{"start":19016.801,"end":19039.269,"text":"為福布這些東西是非常重要所以我要建議為什麼要請你們三位來一是管政策二是管執行那你們單位是在管執行阿其他單位是配合阿那配合要不要配合當然要配合你們兩位兩個部會成績做出來後面就好跟阿"},{"start":19040.009,"end":19057.21,"text":"教育部的好跟在金融機構的好跟就跟著這個模型來做所以你們兩個部會是最重要的所以至於法令如何要不要定其實我是建議部長你要跟行政院建議啦"},{"start":19059.172,"end":19075.568,"text":"這個法令的定定是吳春城委員他非常你看連署這麼多人三黨通通連署為什麼這就是共識嘛那你們也可以提版本那也不急於一時現在就談法律問題但是談實際問題"},{"start":19079.432,"end":19099.221,"text":"也就是你把成績把成果把它做出來壯世代是未來的趨勢我們已經先做了這個也是在幫行政機關啊在做事欸所以不要去計較這些所以我還是要拜託我們何部長既然你們現在已經在做認真的去推"},{"start":19099.941,"end":19118.669,"text":"第二個衛福部該做本來老人業務本來英華族的業務本來他的福利本來就是你們衛福部要做的所以你們兩個部會一定要去擔當那行政院既然不管是陳建寧院長現在卓榮泰院長啊有這個制度啊你們為什麼三大計讀不好好運用一下那"},{"start":19125.692,"end":19147.526,"text":"才來擴大各部會 這個案子才推了會成功 這個案子才會去落實 所以我也要拜託何部長這種東西你不要怕法令 法令是對我們有幫助的 如果到最後推行整個壯世代遇到困難 你非得法令來解決嘛"},{"start":19148.727,"end":19164.893,"text":"所以現在我要拜託兩個部會一個是衛福部一個是勞動部一個是就業問題一個是福利問題你們要先行推行把它做了一個非常嚴滿讓人家看到我們"},{"start":19166.493,"end":19188.911,"text":"來政府的壯世代政策是起飛的是起步的是肯定的要這樣做不要去排除法令的問題法令你們也可以提啊你們認為這55歲或者不明確的問題你們可以提啊我們大家都可以來共商所以我要建議何部長你們的努力我們看到"},{"start":19189.631,"end":19214.357,"text":"那個衛福部的努力邱部長這裡我們也看到但是我要拜託行政院你在作證政策指導的時候要很明確不要去排除其他的這些無謂政治的名稱跟無謂政治的說啊這三個功能不需要因為最後壯世代是一定要去落實"},{"start":19215.197,"end":19233.371,"text":"因為這個高年齡化確實是一定要去面對所以何部長簡單你認為本席給你建議的你的看法是委員我們方向一致啦現在行政院我們勞動部就在執行行政院所交辦的壯世代發展促進方案"},{"start":19234.051,"end":19234.872,"text":"我個人的看法我也同意你的看法"},{"start":19253.831,"end":19253.971,"text":"我會朝這個方向來出"},{"start":19280.128,"end":19280.669,"text":"謝謝林委員 謝謝部長、次長接下來我們請圖前級委員質詢"},{"start":19300.646,"end":19308.057,"text":"謝謝主席先請我們勞保局的白局長還有我們勞動關係司的黃副司長"},{"start":19322.068,"end":19337.405,"text":"白局長我想請問一下因為針對我們勞保局有發一份公文我想請問一下白局長針對說明的第4點局長可以幫我們唸一遍嗎說明的第4點你看得到嗎"},{"start":19339.042,"end":19360.927,"text":"可以幫我們唸一下嗎?是報告委員我們的第4點是提到說至於勞資雙方如對雇傭關係存續期間之認定有爭議應向工作所在地之縣市政府勞工行政機關申請調處或向或循司法途徑解決與以謎爭議那這個主要是源自於現在針對勞資爭議有一個勞資爭議處理法所以我們以這樣的一個規定在這邊去續名"},{"start":19365.768,"end":19386.086,"text":"所以他這邊有講嘛僱傭關係的存續期間那這個認定還有就是我們工作場所縣市政府勞工行政機關申請調處的意思也就是說那照我們勞保局講這個契約的性質它為定期或不定期應該是勞政主管機關的責任對不對"},{"start":19390.141,"end":19415.263,"text":"各位委員報告,我們這邊主要是依勞資爭議處理法裡面,針對勞資雙方如果有爭議,他們依循的法令不見得是勞動基準法,就是在勞資之間有爭議的話都可以依照基準來處理。勞保局我們第4點講嘛,就是雇佣關係的存續,這部分勞工行政機關來申請調處嘛,所以這部分是勞動主管機關來負責處理嘛。"},{"start":19417.947,"end":19439.312,"text":"你就針對第4點嘛對不對你的意思是不是這樣如果他要勞資正義調解可以找地方政府對啊就是有勞政主管機關那中央是勞動部嘛地方就是縣市政府嘛對不對沒有錯吧對沒關係你就針對你的回答就好你不要緊張好那我再請問一下我們勞動關係師黃副司長那針對我們"},{"start":19446.204,"end":19453.531,"text":"韓港局我們有發文韓巡就是有關勞動契約的爭議,勞動契約爭議應該是我們勞動關係司在負責的業管單位嗎?勞動契約章是我們勞動關係司"},{"start":19461.822,"end":19482.177,"text":"對,那我想請問一下副司長針對在航港局的回覆我們來討論一下你看有沒有什麼錯誤或者你覺得他這公文回覆有什麼問題的地方然後針對這公文我們把它陳述出來就是針對傳言法是否明定"},{"start":19483.308,"end":19508.339,"text":"明文定義傳言法中何為定期契約、不定期契約那韓港局針對我們這問題他的回覆是說經查傳言法及相關執法並無定義定期契約或不定期契約也就是說傳言法他不管是本身他傳言法或相關執法並沒有明確的定義嘛這一部分他的回覆是這樣"},{"start":19513.432,"end":19524.046,"text":"第二點,我們傳言法的僱傭契約中定期契約不定期契約的定義,載明中華民國哪一部法律中"},{"start":19524.787,"end":19539.351,"text":"那業管的機關部會單位為何那行管局的回覆是載於勞基法的第9條主管機關在中央為勞動部在直轄市為縣市政府"},{"start":19542.592,"end":19564.08,"text":"所以這部分跟剛剛我們勞保局的回覆也是一樣所以針對我們傳援法的僱傭契約他就說在中華民國法律就是勞基法第9條也就是說主管機關在中央的勞動部在地方的就是縣市政府在航港局的回覆沒關係如果你覺得航港局會有問題你也可以提出"},{"start":19565.08,"end":19586.733,"text":"然後第三點傳言法中受僱用之傳言針對其僱用契約實質為定期契約不定期契約有相關爭議時就計投訴機關為何?韓港局的回覆是說傳言對於僱用契約之契約形式如有爭議勞資雙方可透過勞動主管機關進行協調或透過民事訴訟"},{"start":19592.236,"end":19598.161,"text":"也就是說在中央他可以透過勞動部在地方可以透過縣市政府因為這剛剛已經講過那針對這部分韓港局的回覆我們副市長你覺得他回覆有沒有問題謝謝委員因為我們其實此時此刻我們也針對剛剛委員關心的議題我們正請交通部我們正式請交通部那個含附給我們那我們兩個部會之間會針對這樣的一個議題進行討論可是他已經含附了嘛"},{"start":19622.04,"end":19623.281,"text":"因為這是港港局委員這邊提到港港局這邊提的"},{"start":19641.71,"end":19656.667,"text":"因為我們這邊同時航空局交通部本部還沒有回覆給我們相關的每一個條文傳援勞動權益的問題所以我們會很及時的在做你不要繞圈子現在航空局的回覆有沒有問題"},{"start":19657.659,"end":19677.067,"text":"因為這個部分在法院他也有一些的看法實務上面到最高法院跟監察院所以現在現在看得到的法令就是這些問題這些勞動契約他就很明確講啊傳言法就沒有定定明確定定定期或不定期啊他說"},{"start":19678.047,"end":19695.707,"text":"在明於中華民國哪一部法律?他說就是勞基法第9條啊主管機關中央就是勞動部地方就是縣市政府剛剛勞保局也講然後現在韓港局也回復這樣也就是說其實這個回復都是一致的嘛所以是沒有問題嘛而且是公文回復喔不是私底下聊天喔"},{"start":19696.668,"end":19698.131,"text":"我接下來請一下我們何部長"},{"start":19713.917,"end":19728.256,"text":"市長,因為針對上次質詢過後我們有一些疑義啦齁那我後來也請相關單位也來了解一下那這是上次我們質詢的影片齁我們先放一下看你上次的回覆是怎麼回覆本席的"},{"start":19730.686,"end":19755.966,"text":"他們是定期企業或不定期企業不是勞動部界定的他不是有勞基法主管的範圍啦勞動企業是船員法這個特別法區認定的他的主管機關認定的不是我所以船員法不是對船員法是交通部航港局主管的他的勞僱關係的界定必須從船員法去處理"},{"start":19757.322,"end":19780.383,"text":"部長因為我那時候想說部長很專業啦所以我很相信可是後來我還是要下去查證可是我發現你看剛剛勞保局跟航港局的回覆你勞動關係事業講目前航港局這回覆是沒有問題的那照這樣來講好像我們部長的回覆跟我們航港局的回覆還有勞保局的回覆基本上好像是不太一致欸"},{"start":19781.292,"end":19783.795,"text":"我上次是有問題喔我上次是有問題"},{"start":19798.652,"end":19812.779,"text":"或是法院去認定我上次有特別問你他的僱傭關係的契約性質定期跟不定期是由誰來界定你說不是勞動部界定然後你還跟我講說這是傳言法界定"},{"start":19815.02,"end":19837.819,"text":"那是韓港局說謊嗎我跟您報告交通部現在正在擬定不定期契約範本傳言法裡面的不定期契約範本傳言法裡面有定期契約目前現行是定期契約他目前沒有不定期契約範本他現在正在研擬"},{"start":19838.359,"end":19858.146,"text":"那個部長剛剛我就講齁,韓港局回覆喔,他沒有定義喔委員,這個影片跟剛剛我們問的,我相信大家都看得非常非常的清楚,你直接就回覆,我問你"},{"start":19859.306,"end":19866.794,"text":"我問你擁固關係的契約性質定期跟不定期到底是怎麼界定你從頭到尾都說跟勞動部沒有關係你說這是傳言法你還跟我講傳言法是特別法那韓港局也直接講"},{"start":19876.224,"end":19892.487,"text":"這個傳言法從頭到尾他就不定義定期契約跟不定期契約而且他還直接講這個在勞基法第9條就連有講這個所有的勞動契約主管機關中央為勞動部地方為縣市政府我不知道部長你現在在爭什麼"},{"start":19893.168,"end":19901.432,"text":"事由委員我唸傳言法第12條給您聽。僱傭人、僱傭傳言應簽訂書面僱傭契約,送請行政主管機關備查後,受僱傳言使得在傳上服務。僱傭契約終止時一統。第13條僱傭人、僱傭傳言、僱傭契約範本由行政主管機關定之。"},{"start":19914.981,"end":19927.881,"text":"對這個僱傭的關係他裡面定期或不定期都是傳言法去界定的目前傳言法這個我告訴你他們怎麼跟假設今天這是中綱運通"},{"start":19928.962,"end":19929.002,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":19954.723,"end":19962.372,"text":"該去處理的直接的是高雄市政府勞工局,如果沒有的話,他們現在有在民事法院訴訟中,而且已經達到最高法院去了。"},{"start":19969.36,"end":19994.053,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":19994.995,"end":20013.62,"text":"這個法律 這個牢記法已經寫得很清楚了 所以 韓港局的回覆 所以我就說 那很簡單啊 不然就是韓港局說謊 不然就是部長說謊 這麼簡單我們沒有誰說謊啦 我們都講的是事實 因為牢記法是普通法你們講的就不一致啊 大家都沒說謊 還是立委說謊"},{"start":20017.001,"end":20018.042,"text":"老饑法是普通法"},{"start":20045.714,"end":20048.197,"text":"護士長,勞基法是特別法還是普通法?傳言法是特別法,勞基法是什麼法?"},{"start":20061.073,"end":20084.455,"text":"我們勞動基準法是適用雇用關係的普通法只要我們勞基法第一條條規定所以你講勞基法不是特別法嘛對不對是傳援法是特別法傳援法是特別法勞基法不是特別法那重點我們這個後法本來就是優於前法當然是你勞基法比傳援法大啊那今天它發生爭議的時候你怎麼全部推"},{"start":20084.955,"end":20109.297,"text":"推光光然後勞基法第1條就明文規定如果有特別法的話要依特別法這是勞基法第1條的明文規定好我希望吼我相信吶現在我們要一個明確的問題我說很簡單航港局的回覆剛剛我們也講得很清楚了那部長的回覆跟他的回覆根本就是完全相反的所以我希望"},{"start":20110.218,"end":20124.879,"text":"韓港局跟部長給我們一個明確的答案我不希望我們委員本席在這邊質詢的時候得到的答案部長給我們答案跟我們下去跟韓港局要的回覆是完全不一樣那我真的很想講我不知道為什麼"},{"start":20125.78,"end":20145.957,"text":"我還聽到之前執政黨立委說我們勞動部有藐視國會的情形所以我希望這個事情能夠讓我們了解清楚而且我是認為這很明確啦部長你的答覆跟韓港局的回覆根本是天壤之別完全是相反然後你說是一致的我看不出哪裡一致完全都是不一樣的"},{"start":20149.144,"end":20161.992,"text":"委員那個兩個部會本來我們在這部分的認知有差距問題我們得到的答案都是不一樣你怎麼協調那是以後的事現在你給我們的答覆就是不一樣的好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":20166.38,"end":20178.384,"text":"告通和諧跟我們圖委員報告一下。那如果要提秒數國會是要提案的。不要簡單。好謝謝圖委員。那繼續我們請齋禹委員質詢。"},{"start":20200.501,"end":20211.326,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是有請我們勞動部部長以及我們這一個我看今天有我們經濟部經濟部我們次長部長這個針對我們今天在討論討論壯世代"},{"start":20230.87,"end":20244.95,"text":"啊這個壯世代的定義齁因為我一天在聯..我..我有在聯署啦齁啊我想說他這個定義不明欸齁因為他的壯世代沒有我啊我不是壯世代啊部長啊你覺得我是不壯嗎"},{"start":20248.322,"end":20258.237,"text":" 我覺得這樣定義起來怪怪啦 因為要壯世代 我感覺啦 你也要加一條說 這個體重80公斤以上 應該都要納入壯世代"},{"start":20263.231,"end":20286.823,"text":"你怎麼不贏所以我今天要來這裡就是說你說這壯世代我覺得今天真的有一點奇怪因為他我們在講這個壯世代的好你說就業也好還是壯世代要怎麼要讓他們可以發揮他們的強項這看起來就不是在衛房委員會"},{"start":20288.399,"end":20313.315,"text":"可以處理這麼多議題啊 因為我看起來 這個比較像他這個和經濟比較有關係吧 次長你看看這個整部條文的本身你來看 這裏面只有那個第4條是跟那個產業發展有關 跟產業發展有關 只有一條因為他這看起來是一個 這應該是稍微反映類似這個"},{"start":20318.107,"end":20331.302,"text":"條文又有應用法作用法又有又看起來像基本法的概念如果它是叫做壯世代基本法大概就只是比較一些原則的東西嘛但是它內容又有一些作用法的精神"},{"start":20332.862,"end":20358.844,"text":"這太有趣了所以我在說剛剛在講那個特別法普通法我也覺得蠻有趣的這個中央法規標準法第16條就有規定特別法優於普通法至於這個剛剛我們國民黨委員在講到底傳播法跟勞基法誰是特別法這個我想這個就讓您去做解釋但是特別法優於普通法這是基本的法理原則"},{"start":20359.605,"end":20389.105,"text":"同樣的在今天我們在討論這一個條文的時候壯世代的這個他看起來就是這個條文涉及的機關很大當然我也在想像說我們提案的委員他覺得說要替這個55歲以上的讓他發揮他的更大的作用而且他是不是也有一點覺得說你以前都很多法律都把它定義叫做老年人口"},{"start":20390.545,"end":20410.973,"text":"會不會有歧視的問題?我是覺得這要怎麼說呢?有時候要說歧視也可以說,要說不是歧視,老就是老。老無老以及人之老。人家說我胖,我也是要接受啊,就真的胖啊。"},{"start":20412.627,"end":20425.184,"text":"所以這在名詞定義上,我很覺得說這個很有不過是一個新的概念啦,我們知道事實上很多人都在講到說人進入了一個"},{"start":20428.373,"end":20442.222,"text":"呃借您退休可是又還沒有退休或者是真的退休後他要有新的一個人生的規劃看起來這個是比較符合這個壯世代的基本的一個想法啊我是覺得馬希呃"},{"start":20443.883,"end":20469.282,"text":"大家都可以討論可是討論之前要先確定好我們主管的委員會那以今天我們是在衛環委員會我感覺起來衛環來聯審經濟這個感覺上跟他整部條文起來我覺得是有點導致了應該是要以經濟來做主審的主審或者是其他委員會我覺得這個第一個要判斷一下那第二個我想要跟"},{"start":20470.017,"end":20494.916,"text":"就是就叫我們部長那以及次長就是說我們現在未來如果引進了包括橋外生包括我們如果移工那我們也知道現在移工是不能在工廠裡面不能住在工廠裡面不能住在工廠那未來如果有這些橋外生那以及這些移工他住宿的需求你們的規劃是怎樣"},{"start":20499.14,"end":20515.051,"text":"我請我署長來回答一下好不好那是有辦法回答的回答現在移工僱主的一個法定責任就是要安排他的生活照顧管理這裡面像移工的話就是他要安排住宿那這個住宿一般就要經過地方的公安消防等等檢查要合格"},{"start":20515.391,"end":20533.082,"text":"一共是由部主來的,那喬艾森呢?那喬艾森基本上因為大部分因為他在臺灣就學大部分都有自己的租屋或是學校安排所以這部分大概基本上是不會完全那就學結束後呢?對,就看喬艾森有時候他自行駐居那這部分就沒有什麼樣的一個"},{"start":20533.722,"end":20551.894,"text":"如果喬外森找到了他的就業,他就是畢業後兩年的時間,就是他的求職期間,那求職期間可能他自己要去找他住的地方,那如果他找到工作後呢?找到工作後基本上"},{"start":20553.058,"end":20579.189,"text":"有些其實他大部分還是自行安排 雇主沒有一定要安排這樣的一個住宿所以雇主就沒有這樣的義務了 所以說由喬外森自己來安排那所以可能未來 這個住的問題就會變成 喬外森每天要去發財所以就會延伸到了說 喬外森現在如果他們畢業之後 那就是不能打工嘛"},{"start":20580.365,"end":20597.559,"text":"那我早上我聽那個國發會主委說這部分可能會修正讓他們畢業後可以繼續打工然後兩年後到他們求職期間讓他穩定一個他薪資的來源所以你們未來的方向都是這樣嗎好那第二個我再請教一下就是說我們現在這個中高齡的這個就業狀況"},{"start":20600.18,"end":20614.96,"text":"呃目前我們臺灣的比例上仍然是比其他國家以日本來說啦吼我們臺灣的呃65歲以上的就業狀況跟日本比起來我們的%是比較低吼表示說我們中高齡的就業呃"},{"start":20616.682,"end":20620.524,"text":"中高齡就業法通過以來,我們已經增加38萬的中高齡勞動力了。我們希望每年增加10萬以上。中高齡部分其實是67%的。"},{"start":20642.896,"end":20669.281,"text":"對阿這個是高齡是9%高齡是65歲以上啦那不過委員其實日韓的高齡者為什麼這麼多那麼那麼的饒餐率這麼高跟他們的這一個下流老人狀況有關係因為他們早年年金改革砍太多所以他們現在普遍那個年金太低啦所以他沒有辦法生活"},{"start":20669.881,"end":20693.979,"text":"只好被迫那是被迫就業被迫要去找工作他們是有這個狀況的蠻嚴重的所以你去日本韓國你會看到很多街上或是到處都是紮營的老人對這個應該可以再注意一下是是所以這個是有個被迫就業啦你也不能不考慮這種因素那這個也不是好的那台灣好的是說真的我們的嬰兒潮世代"},{"start":20697.301,"end":20716.587,"text":"臺灣最有財富能力的一群人,其實基本上有累積一定程度的財富,然後基本上我們的老人其實財務狀況相對日韓老人最好的臺灣的55歲以上都是財力最好的,所以才會有像我們這一輩叫做啃老族,我們都要努力不要當啃老族"},{"start":20726.64,"end":20731.242,"text":"好謝謝蔡委員謝謝部長次長繼續我們請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝謝主席有請我們勞動部部長也請我們衛福部呂次長請準備"},{"start":20745.609,"end":20770.319,"text":"好,部長,何部長想跟您請問一下最近最新的一個新聞有關於這個交通運駕有這樣子的草案說明會最後消機會呢因為有喊卡那所以最後變成這個外送工會不斷的在這個網路媒體在喊話那對於這個交通運駕突如其來的喊卡作為一個勞動部部長幫外送員表態一下您怎麼說"},{"start":20771.292,"end":20793.682,"text":"我完全支持這個運費通名化方案因為這是我們跟交通部一起合作的方案它其實有個好處就是說它同時可以兼顧這一個工作他們勞動上面的彈性然後又可以兼顧他的權益我想我們為什麼要去研究這個東西我們的初衷是什麼"},{"start":20794.002,"end":20817.544,"text":"我們的初衷是希望揭開這個平台的幕後在訂定整個外送員在收費的過程他所收到的每一筆運送過程最後的薪資是應該公開透明的所謂的公開透明是希望讓他們了解他們到底是做了這一單收到的錢是不是合理的我們的初衷不是為了要讓消費者增加任何的費用"},{"start":20817.824,"end":20846.3,"text":"沒錯沒錯所以是不是也幫助我們的外送員一起來喊話一下勞動部對對那是兩件事就是這個消費者這一頭的這個費用不應該被這個不應該被算透明化也有助於消費者釐清他的消費過程到底有哪些是幕後我們不知道的也可以節省到錢甚至也可以知道原來平台賺了這麼多對對對我們一起加油好嗎是是謝謝委員好那再來呂市長喔"},{"start":20847.601,"end":20870.694,"text":"市長好市長好久不見市長昨天因為時間的關係我本來想問部長但是這個菸娟的問題今天我想拋出一些想法請市長帶回去給部長研議一下昨天我想談的是健康台灣的政策的裁員問題因為衛福部明年要撥50億元給癌症心藥基金這個政策大家不分朝野都一定全力支持但是你覺得50億夠嗎"},{"start":20874.039,"end":20879.542,"text":"你覺得?沒關係你個人覺得可以再增加嗎?我們都會來極力爭取在財源分配的方面除了公務預算的撥款你是否認為還有其他的財源可以補充?我們要確保這個基金能夠穩定而且能夠持續性"},{"start":20895.25,"end":20899.492,"text":"我提供一個資料啦大家探討一下根據臺灣癌症基金會對這一次這一屆的立委我們有針對癌症新藥基金的裁員看法調查結果前三名分別新藥新醫療科技研發的相關基金有75%"},{"start":20921.761,"end":20947.345,"text":"那逐年編列購物預算支持70% 煙捐跟新興煙品捐有69%而要國家編列特別預算最低占29%所以那就表示說從既有財源撥補到癌症型藥基金幾乎是委員們認為最有效最可行的共識所以台灣老年化逐漸的成長不是高齡化社會是超高齡化社會的可能性是越來越高"},{"start":20948.206,"end":20963.059,"text":"長期的照顧跟慢性疾病的一個防治我們一定會進一步擴大有這個需求澳洲11年連續調漲煙稅吸煙率也成功的下降到一成以下之前國建署有說過臺灣的煙捐和煙稅佔煙價的54%然而世界衛生組織建議煙捐煙稅應該佔煙價的75%"},{"start":20971.767,"end":20990.317,"text":"所以我們再看看再根據我們煙害防治法第4條每兩年就要邀集學者專家來檢討煙捐的相關政策也因此我們是不是能夠考慮按部就班適度的調整這個煙捐、煙稅來做一個調整所以就既有的規定喔次長知不知道今年大約何時會召開煙捐審議的委員會"},{"start":20994.21,"end":21018.841,"text":"報告委員因為這個是應該是國建署那邊 國建署不是我督導但是我沒有記錯應該是年底好沒關係因為今年就要召開我想我們是不是應該納入剛剛我所提到的這些不管是調查結果還有世界潮流他們所做的一個建議我們一起來把這個癌症信號基金能夠普遍的來穩定持續的成長讓大家國人能夠更加安定"},{"start":21019.221,"end":21027.325,"text":"是的,我也非常佩服委員的這件事。我想只要對民眾有利,我們都會來積極研議。感謝委員。好,謝謝,我們一起加油。感謝委員,謝謝。謝謝羅委員,謝謝部長。賴會員委員,賴會員委員,賴會員委員不在。好,繼續我們請麥一貞委員辭去。"},{"start":21054.92,"end":21056.169,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":21062.455,"end":21086.466,"text":"好部長好不管什麼法但是今天部長就是被大家叫上來站法的臺灣現在在面臨快速人口老化我們今天審查的壯世代政策與產業發展促進草案"},{"start":21088.807,"end":21093.829,"text":"重點就是要來促進壯世代參與經濟並認識他們的潛力而不是僅僅將他們視為年齡的負擔解決年齡的歧視問題創造年齡友善的工作場所確保台灣的高齡化的被視為一種"},{"start":21111.798,"end":21125.895,"text":"經濟的支援而不是挑戰所以剛才我們其他委員就說他已經簽了連署但是呢都不了解部長你認同這個法案嗎"},{"start":21127.402,"end":21140.653,"text":"委員我剛剛有報告過就是說概念上我支持這一個壯世代就是反年齡歧視的這個概念啦這我覺得是是但是說裡面都有寫清楚嘛所以說這樣自己自己沒了概念頭啊大家連署都是念頭嘛不是這樣對大家都要了解才會去簽連署嘛所以這個部分我們部長也很清楚"},{"start":21153.763,"end":21168.319,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":21168.929,"end":21185.843,"text":"現在就是很嚴重的高齡但是我想要請教一下我們60歲以上的人口占比例多少就是我們的高齡人口我們的60歲以上委員這個可不可以讓我再查一下"},{"start":21187.385,"end":21212.547,"text":"所以你都不知道多少的話你怎麼說這個高齡這個說有沒有需要所以現在我們的長照還有日照有沒有說足夠我請教部長一下說你要不要準備基金準備經費來養你的父母那當然每個人都需要所以說你另外一半的父母你要不要去撫養"},{"start":21214.539,"end":21220.65,"text":"嗯當然這個要看世代啦看世代齁但是以你啊你覺得說以你要不要養要不要撫養要不要照顧嗯"},{"start":21225.555,"end":21250.35,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":21250.59,"end":21276.932,"text":"你照顧你的父母你回答得很清楚但是照顧另外一半你就就是這樣子就是就是有這樣子的問題存在所以我們就是不管怎麼樣我們就是為了就是我們的高齡來去創造一些福利所以我們是現在目前我們的日照長照其他不足所以我們才要去我們的春城委員才要覺得壯世代"},{"start":21278.453,"end":21278.933,"text":"大委員您這邊顯示的就是20%是吧?"},{"start":21300.84,"end":21319.872,"text":"我顯示是因為我有去做功課嘛,你來別諮詢你沒有做功課嘛所以呢,所以我們現在就是說我們要如何去協助我們的這個法案是不是可以幫助有一群人他們可以在自己照顧自己的"},{"start":21320.852,"end":21338.599,"text":"所以現在學校也少子化少子化的話是不是學校也可以做另外一個就是壯世代的法案裡面的長照或者日照對我們的高齡也有幫助對我們的家庭有幫助對學校有幫助對我們的長輩跟小孩的互動更有幫助所以是不是有沒有想到這樣子的一個方法還有就是因為時間有限我先講完"},{"start":21350.563,"end":21361.227,"text":"我希望就是說後面你可以給我一個書面的讓我更了解我們才能去幫助更多人所以民間大家有一句話不知道部長是不是知道就是現在的一句話就是說"},{"start":21366.796,"end":21367.516,"text":"：審查委員：完整會議"},{"start":21389.065,"end":21408.462,"text":"退休但是不休這樣子的讓我們的高齡才能在這個社會上貢獻我們覺得說家族一老就是如一寶這樣子才真正的對高齡的幫助因為我這邊的社團每一個月都是去仁愛之家幫老人家剪頭髮他們我們看到他們不是病死"},{"start":21412.005,"end":21432.005,"text":"議員．"},{"start":21432.005,"end":21451.152,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":21453.035,"end":21459.517,"text":"林黛樺委員不在林佩祥委員不在張祺凱委員不在林益鈞委員不在顏寬恒委員不在"},{"start":21478.206,"end":21482.729,"text":"謝伊鳳委員邱志偉委員林靜憲委員張家俊委員高金素美委員"},{"start":21507.52,"end":21513.683,"text":"賴先祥委員不在。林柱英委員不在。陳超明委員不在。接下來我們請陪夥的楊耀委員執行。"},{"start":21534.977,"end":21535.859,"text":"謝謝各位。各位請一下何部長。"},{"start":21546.342,"end":21571.759,"text":"部長好部長其實在台灣邁入超高齡社會的時候相關的勞動力的調整跟勞工的政策確實是必須要調整我們今天審查重世代的政策跟產業發展促進法的草案今天做詢答所以我有幾個問題問一下部長"},{"start":21575.621,"end":21585.228,"text":"第一個就是呢假如按照就業人口來區分就今年的8月份的統計臺灣目前是未滿45歲的就業人數是成富成長的那45歲以上"},{"start":21594.521,"end":21618.435,"text":"也就是大概接近壯世代接近我們現在壯世代的就業其實是呈現正常其中又以65歲以上的銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜"},{"start":21619.54,"end":21632.908,"text":"也代表臺灣的勞動力市場其實已經沒有人口紅利請教一下部長就在勞動力的老化短缺不可逆的情況我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整"},{"start":21634.355,"end":21656.276,"text":"是 所以委員一個當然中高齡的促進就業這是一個面向對那其次當然因應這樣的人口的不再人口紅利我先插一下話就是說中高齡的就業是我們的勞工政策的調整"},{"start":21657.517,"end":21675.811,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":21676.658,"end":21704.56,"text":"是,就是說當然我們這部分有帶努力啦因為台灣普遍早退啦有一個早退的文化那台灣當然在這樣子的就是說有跟鄰近國家比起來我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的這樣子的社會文化也比較強比較嚴重,就是年齡歧視比較嚴重年齡歧視嚴重的原因是什麼"},{"start":21705.196,"end":21705.656,"text":"那你們相對應的政策是什麼?"},{"start":21733.223,"end":21758.95,"text":"是,所以這個年齡的歧視當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定你歧視是要罰款的所以這是可以被處罰的啦這個我們在中高齡法是有明確定定的那當然謝謝委員不過部長我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消你職場"},{"start":21762.334,"end":21766.424,"text":"勞動力市場的年齡歧視,我不覺得單純的處罰可以"},{"start":21769.631,"end":21793.243,"text":"是我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦也是有的譬如什麼像我們的行政獎勵措施對55plus對婦女再就業我們就是給雇主跟勞工都給補助給獎勵那其實是一個正面鼓勵的讓你去任用中高齡而且是不再把這個把這當成資產啦這是一個紅利啦對把它當成是一個你的"},{"start":21798.846,"end":21823.1,"text":"這個職場上面的一個正面的因素來看我這邊的資料是55歲到剛剛部長講的55歲以上的受僱者收到年齡就業歧視的比例大概超過9%算很高確實蠻高的我也知道來東部大概每年都有"},{"start":21824.161,"end":21824.942,"text":"我現在是問你檢討了沒有"},{"start":21851.97,"end":21869.661,"text":"我們正在檢討我們正在檢討而且應該是這部分的要拿出對策啦好不好好謝謝委員最後一個問題可能部長也沒有辦法回答了不過我先"},{"start":21871.042,"end":21883.297,"text":"先提出來其實根據審計部的報告其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長或者是沒有強制退休的年齡規定"},{"start":21887.128,"end":21901.677,"text":"我不知道部裡面現在的有沒有相關的政策方向對,謝謝您今年就通過了拉基法第54條雙方合議可以延長退休合議完"},{"start":21903.138,"end":21926.216,"text":"延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事。當然。懂我的意思嗎?我現在問的是強制退休年齡。可是強制退休啊。不然這樣子,我幫你解一下。你們假如現在還沒有既定的政策方向,你就直接說沒有。"},{"start":21927.253,"end":21942.378,"text":" 那假如有的話你要說明再說明 懂我的意思嗎?因為我並不想太為難你 謝謝 強制退休也是一個重大的議題啦 這個知識體大 需要大家 這個東西"},{"start":21949.417,"end":21968.699,"text":"我們現在先用合意退,我們先來落死牢計畫第54條這個修法為先啦。我知道啦,我知道啦,我就說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情嘛。現在是65歲想要自治退休,然後可以合意研查吧。對。那我現在問的是你有沒有"},{"start":21969.902,"end":21994.985,"text":"勞動部這邊有沒有政策方向對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有目前沒有考慮目前沒有考慮那你就回答這樣子就可以了不過因為既然有那麼多國家都在對沿你我們縱使目前沒有相關的資料的收集跟討論"},{"start":21996.686,"end":22007.255,"text":"我不是說必須要推出這樣子的政策可是總是必須要先做因應可以來研究對好好好這我們來做好謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝楊委員葉延芝委員葉延芝委員葉延芝委員不在"},{"start":22023.939,"end":22040.539,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一、張家俊、陳超敏、林玉京、邱毅穎、邱志偉、謝一鳳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報所以以下結議說明及詢答完畢"},{"start":22044.195,"end":22062.1,"text":"委員執行為其答覆或請補充資料者相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定委員吳春城等42人擬具《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案》案令則其委員會辦公聽會及繼續審查"},{"start":22070.117,"end":22074.019,"text":"本次會議到此結束,現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"16205","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16205","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db5998180c4b1e7cf46c0396a52a6677966059d4d42a7fce214ff1acb6144906fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T08:31:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:24:00+08:00","duration":21164,"影片長度":"05:52:44","委員發言時間":"08:31:16 - 14:24:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1727.22096875,"end":1727.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1728.03096875,"end":1730.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1731.3553437500002,"end":1734.3084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1734.79784375,"end":1738.0040937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1738.6453437500002,"end":1753.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1753.7147187500002,"end":1756.3978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1756.6678437500002,"end":1762.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1762.8609687500002,"end":1764.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1765.2740937500002,"end":1768.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1768.6490937500002,"end":1771.4503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1771.7203437500002,"end":1781.2715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1775.9390937500002,"end":1775.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1775.98971875,"end":1776.2090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1776.2090937500002,"end":1776.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1776.6140937500002,"end":1776.6815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1776.6815937500003,"end":1776.9178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1776.9178437500002,"end":1777.7615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1781.6934687500002,"end":1783.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1784.7647187500002,"end":1799.8340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1800.1040937500002,"end":1804.5253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1804.98096875,"end":1812.3553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1812.6590937500002,"end":1817.4009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1817.92409375,"end":1819.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1820.3709687500002,"end":1820.6915937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1820.9447187500002,"end":1822.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1823.2734687500001,"end":1825.0284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1825.7203437500002,"end":1842.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1842.6122187500002,"end":1846.5440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1847.4722187500001,"end":1850.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1851.4209687500002,"end":1860.8540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1861.5290937500001,"end":1862.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1862.4572187500003,"end":1868.3128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1868.7347187500002,"end":1871.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1872.19409375,"end":1874.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1875.6197187500002,"end":1876.6153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1877.10471875,"end":1878.3534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1878.5728437500002,"end":1879.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1879.6190937500003,"end":1880.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1882.3359687500001,"end":1884.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1885.0359687500002,"end":1885.7953437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1886.3522187500002,"end":1886.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1887.4322187500002,"end":1888.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1889.2715937500002,"end":1889.6934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1890.0140937500003,"end":1890.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1891.75221875,"end":1892.5453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1892.9672187500003,"end":1895.7347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1896.7640937500003,"end":1901.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1901.9447187500002,"end":1902.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1904.3072187500002,"end":1908.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1908.7115937500002,"end":1912.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1912.5759687500001,"end":1919.0053437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1919.2415937500002,"end":1924.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1925.1478437500002,"end":1927.2572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1927.7972187500002,"end":1930.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1931.1553437500002,"end":1934.1759687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1934.6147187500003,"end":1936.9265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":1937.1290937500003,"end":1937.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1949.81909375,"end":1950.1734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1950.5953437500002,"end":1951.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1951.6922187500002,"end":1953.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1953.3628437500001,"end":1977.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1977.5615937500002,"end":1981.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1981.7803437500002,"end":1985.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1986.1172187500001,"end":1993.6603437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1993.98096875,"end":2003.9203437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2004.4772187500002,"end":2010.2315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2010.3497187500002,"end":2019.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2020.3565937500002,"end":2050.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2051.59221875,"end":2054.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2054.91659375,"end":2055.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2055.6590937500005,"end":2084.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2084.7178437500006,"end":2085.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2086.00034375,"end":2094.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2094.99471875,"end":2100.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2100.7997187500005,"end":2108.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2109.4734687500004,"end":2117.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2117.38784375,"end":2140.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2140.5740937500004,"end":2143.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2143.9490937500004,"end":2147.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2147.3240937500004,"end":2147.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2148.3365937500002,"end":2158.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2158.4615937500002,"end":2170.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2171.0672187500004,"end":2203.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2203.51784375,"end":2203.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2204.4459687500002,"end":2236.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2236.8122187500003,"end":2237.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2237.75721875,"end":2239.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2240.1872187500003,"end":2252.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2252.59034375,"end":2257.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2257.5684687500006,"end":2267.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2268.06471875,"end":2274.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2275.2028437500003,"end":2287.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2287.7409687500003,"end":2303.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2303.63721875,"end":2324.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2324.4440937500003,"end":2346.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2346.5165937500005,"end":2358.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2358.6834687500004,"end":2358.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2359.2740937500002,"end":2445.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2446.23096875,"end":2501.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2501.85096875,"end":2513.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2513.7478437500004,"end":2542.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2543.5153437500003,"end":2546.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2546.63721875,"end":2565.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2566.63409375,"end":2568.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2569.16534375,"end":2602.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2602.18971875,"end":2603.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2604.07971875,"end":2623.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2624.0934687500003,"end":2688.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2688.45471875,"end":2699.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2699.5584687500004,"end":2712.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2712.53534375,"end":2733.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2733.51096875,"end":2739.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2739.11346875,"end":2744.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2744.26034375,"end":2744.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2746.28534375,"end":2746.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2746.3190937500003,"end":2748.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2749.6434687500005,"end":2750.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2750.92596875,"end":2757.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2757.5240937500002,"end":2758.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2759.14409375,"end":2760.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2761.05096875,"end":2762.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2762.19846875,"end":2764.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2764.5272187500004,"end":2765.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2766.3834687500002,"end":2769.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2770.46721875,"end":2771.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2772.10409375,"end":2773.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2774.1797187500006,"end":2774.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2789.3672187500006,"end":2791.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2792.35409375,"end":2794.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2794.7334687500006,"end":2797.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2797.65284375,"end":2798.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2798.78346875,"end":2822.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2822.12159375,"end":2872.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2873.2528437500005,"end":2919.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2919.9459687500002,"end":2954.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2954.9109687500004,"end":2955.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2956.21034375,"end":2959.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2960.4459687500002,"end":2961.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2962.1334687500002,"end":2978.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2978.38409375,"end":2992.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2992.79534375,"end":2998.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2999.0390937500006,"end":3001.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3001.4353437500004,"end":3007.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3007.3415937500004,"end":3008.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3008.5059687500006,"end":3009.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3010.1259687500005,"end":3010.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3010.76721875,"end":3013.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3014.3278437500003,"end":3020.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3020.68971875,"end":3026.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3026.5284687500007,"end":3027.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3027.62534375,"end":3058.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3058.96221875,"end":3059.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3060.0928437500006,"end":3062.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3062.3203437500006,"end":3063.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3063.31596875,"end":3064.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3065.00346875,"end":3067.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3067.5009687500005,"end":3068.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3068.91846875,"end":3070.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3070.48784375,"end":3070.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3071.26409375,"end":3075.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3075.8709687500004,"end":3076.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3076.5965937500005,"end":3079.6847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3079.93784375,"end":3081.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3081.25409375,"end":3081.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3081.2878437500003,"end":3083.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3084.1903437500005,"end":3087.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3092.4928437500002,"end":3092.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3092.5097187500005,"end":3096.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3097.04909375,"end":3102.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3102.9215937500003,"end":3152.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3153.46221875,"end":3167.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3167.9072187500005,"end":3177.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3178.04909375,"end":3179.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3179.85471875,"end":3198.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3199.2947187500004,"end":3204.0197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3204.20534375,"end":3205.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3205.79159375,"end":3209.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3209.89221875,"end":3214.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3215.2584687500002,"end":3219.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3219.8484687500004,"end":3222.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3223.1222187500007,"end":3239.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3239.89596875,"end":3244.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3245.24534375,"end":3284.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3284.80034375,"end":3306.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3306.8053437500002,"end":3307.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3307.6659687500005,"end":3312.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3312.9647187500004,"end":3316.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3316.91346875,"end":3320.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3321.13221875,"end":3346.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3346.7653437500003,"end":3356.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3359.10096875,"end":3361.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3362.18909375,"end":3362.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3363.4040937500004,"end":3365.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3365.56409375,"end":3366.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3367.3359687500006,"end":3367.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3374.0859687500006,"end":3375.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3376.2628437500007,"end":3378.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3378.6590937500005,"end":3379.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3380.3972187500003,"end":3384.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3385.25721875,"end":3386.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3387.29909375,"end":3389.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3389.6447187500007,"end":3392.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3393.27284375,"end":3403.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3404.12346875,"end":3406.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3406.60409375,"end":3410.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3411.0253437500005,"end":3413.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3413.28659375,"end":3415.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3416.3409687500007,"end":3418.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3418.3828437500006,"end":3421.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3422.2978437500005,"end":3425.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3426.11159375,"end":3430.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3430.5497187500005,"end":3437.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3437.3672187500006,"end":3444.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3444.9103437500007,"end":3447.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3448.42034375,"end":3451.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3451.74471875,"end":3455.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3455.6090937500003,"end":3457.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3458.17409375,"end":3461.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3462.83159375,"end":3467.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3467.3034687500003,"end":3468.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3469.3622187500005,"end":3474.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3474.88034375,"end":3477.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3478.0528437500006,"end":3480.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3480.24659375,"end":3485.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3486.0009687500005,"end":3488.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3489.2578437500006,"end":3492.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3492.8522187500002,"end":3496.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3496.6659687500005,"end":3500.1759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3500.56409375,"end":3503.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3503.75346875,"end":3506.9259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3507.4997187500003,"end":3511.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3512.6803437500002,"end":3514.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3515.5322187500005,"end":3521.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3522.18096875,"end":3525.4884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3525.74159375,"end":3527.7159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3528.2559687500006,"end":3530.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3531.22596875,"end":3532.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3532.3565937500007,"end":3535.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3536.33909375,"end":3540.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3541.2497187500003,"end":3544.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3544.8947187500007,"end":3546.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3546.2615937500004,"end":3547.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3547.37534375,"end":3549.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3549.50159375,"end":3555.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3555.4247187500005,"end":3557.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3558.17534375,"end":3560.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3561.2128437500005,"end":3563.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3563.59221875,"end":3564.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3565.11096875,"end":3567.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3568.0134687500004,"end":3570.2072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3572.08034375,"end":3574.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3574.74659375,"end":3579.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3580.3828437500006,"end":3582.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3583.0322187500005,"end":3583.7072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3585.4959687500004,"end":3591.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3591.7228437500007,"end":3592.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3594.22034375,"end":3597.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3598.1690937500007,"end":3602.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3603.0290937500004,"end":3608.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3608.56409375,"end":3617.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3617.6934687500006,"end":3626.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3626.75534375,"end":3629.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3630.43409375,"end":3630.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3631.2272187500002,"end":3633.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3638.4159687500005,"end":3639.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":3639.8672187500006,"end":3641.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3649.16534375,"end":3649.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3649.8572187500004,"end":3651.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3652.18596875,"end":3659.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3660.50534375,"end":3666.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3667.18784375,"end":3669.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3669.9215937500003,"end":3670.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3670.9678437500006,"end":3672.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3672.68909375,"end":3676.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3677.24534375,"end":3682.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3682.7128437500005,"end":3685.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3686.54346875,"end":3688.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3688.72034375,"end":3692.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3692.56784375,"end":3698.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3698.6765937500004,"end":3706.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3706.7597187500005,"end":3716.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3716.3953437500004,"end":3724.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3725.28846875,"end":3734.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3734.6540937500004,"end":3743.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3745.2009687500004,"end":3745.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3746.1628437500003,"end":3757.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3757.9247187500005,"end":3759.0890937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3759.3759687500005,"end":3762.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3761.7215937500005,"end":3763.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3764.0165937500005,"end":3765.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3765.4678437500006,"end":3766.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3766.76721875,"end":3771.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3771.7115937500002,"end":3771.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3771.7284687500005,"end":3774.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3773.8547187500008,"end":3775.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3775.5253437500005,"end":3776.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3776.6222187500007,"end":3783.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3783.7097187500003,"end":3784.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3784.41846875,"end":3787.8947187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3788.1647187500002,"end":3790.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3790.6959687500002,"end":3792.5353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3793.2440937500005,"end":3794.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3794.3915937500005,"end":3796.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3796.0115937500004,"end":3796.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3796.6190937500005,"end":3798.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3798.82971875,"end":3805.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3806.0859687500006,"end":3844.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3825.0534687500003,"end":3825.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3845.4890937500004,"end":3847.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3848.18909375,"end":3853.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3854.1628437500003,"end":3858.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3859.44471875,"end":3865.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3865.6884687500005,"end":3883.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3884.0147187500006,"end":3885.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3885.60096875,"end":3897.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3897.3797187500004,"end":3899.2697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3899.45534375,"end":3907.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3908.4328437500008,"end":3919.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3919.7897187500002,"end":3923.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3923.7215937500005,"end":3927.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3927.6872187500003,"end":3928.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3927.7040937500005,"end":3928.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3928.88534375,"end":3929.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3929.42534375,"end":3929.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3929.72909375,"end":3930.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3929.7628437500007,"end":3931.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3931.0790937500005,"end":3931.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3931.5684687500006,"end":3939.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3939.7697187500007,"end":3939.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3939.8709687500004,"end":3940.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3941.8622187500005,"end":3945.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3943.39784375,"end":3943.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3945.1190937500005,"end":3958.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3956.7628437500007,"end":3961.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3959.2940937500007,"end":3959.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3959.6484687500006,"end":3960.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3960.4922187500006,"end":3963.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3963.0234687500006,"end":3964.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3964.72784375,"end":3966.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3965.94284375,"end":3967.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3967.3603437500005,"end":3970.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3969.9928437500002,"end":3983.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3970.51596875,"end":3970.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3983.9990937500006,"end":4000.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4000.35096875,"end":4008.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4009.1090937500003,"end":4014.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4014.7959687500006,"end":4019.7403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4020.11159375,"end":4023.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4023.79034375,"end":4029.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4030.30409375,"end":4058.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4058.7722187500003,"end":4070.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4070.63534375,"end":4078.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4079.1572187500005,"end":4081.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4081.5703437500006,"end":4087.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4087.9490937500004,"end":4120.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4121.78346875,"end":4128.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4128.702218750001,"end":4129.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4129.98471875,"end":4132.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4133.5115937499995,"end":4142.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4142.522843750001,"end":4159.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4159.61721875,"end":4179.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4179.9853437500005,"end":4180.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4180.37346875,"end":4181.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4181.807843750001,"end":4186.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4186.583468750001,"end":4187.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4187.46096875,"end":4188.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4188.034718749999,"end":4188.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4188.743468750001,"end":4188.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4188.7772187499995,"end":4189.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4190.093468749999,"end":4192.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4194.39659375,"end":4196.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4211.794718749999,"end":4214.376593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4214.54534375,"end":4215.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4221.649718750001,"end":4221.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4222.999718749999,"end":4230.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4223.11784375,"end":4223.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4223.151593750001,"end":4223.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4223.607218749999,"end":4223.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4230.694718750001,"end":4233.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4233.47909375,"end":4237.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4237.7147187499995,"end":4239.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4240.46534375,"end":4242.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4241.44409375,"end":4242.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4242.794093750001,"end":4243.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4243.9247187500005,"end":4244.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4244.515343749999,"end":4251.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4251.0965937500005,"end":4256.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4257.30659375,"end":4260.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4260.34409375,"end":4263.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4263.53346875,"end":4266.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4264.83284375,"end":4265.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4265.524718750001,"end":4266.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4267.110968749999,"end":4269.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4269.6590937500005,"end":4269.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4269.743468750001,"end":4270.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4270.401593750001,"end":4271.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4271.5322187500005,"end":4274.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4274.940968749999,"end":4280.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4280.50971875,"end":4281.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4281.5897187499995,"end":4290.128468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4290.415343750001,"end":4294.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4295.055968750001,"end":4301.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4301.26596875,"end":4306.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4306.311593750001,"end":4333.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4326.02159375,"end":4326.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4333.733468750001,"end":4337.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4337.850968750001,"end":4346.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4342.47471875,"end":4346.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4346.339093750001,"end":4348.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4348.499093750001,"end":4348.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4349.005343750001,"end":4350.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4350.94596875,"end":4359.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4358.235968749999,"end":4358.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4360.27784375,"end":4362.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4362.72471875,"end":4366.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4366.487843749999,"end":4376.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4376.376593749999,"end":4380.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4380.89909375,"end":4388.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4389.420968750001,"end":4390.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4390.78784375,"end":4391.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4392.44159375,"end":4398.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4393.8084687499995,"end":4394.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4398.61784375,"end":4399.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4399.22534375,"end":4400.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4400.811593750001,"end":4405.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4406.31284375,"end":4410.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4410.5653437500005,"end":4411.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4410.58221875,"end":4411.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4411.42596875,"end":4415.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4414.5478437500005,"end":4417.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4415.999093750001,"end":4417.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4418.41221875,"end":4419.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4420.47096875,"end":4422.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4422.76596875,"end":4424.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4425.21284375,"end":4425.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4426.073468750001,"end":4427.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4428.19971875,"end":4430.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4428.216593749999,"end":4429.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4430.5790937500005,"end":4435.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4436.02971875,"end":4438.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4438.88159375,"end":4439.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4440.0965937500005,"end":4446.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4446.62721875,"end":4455.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4455.233468750001,"end":4455.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4455.35159375,"end":4455.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4457.055968750001,"end":4457.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4457.1572187500005,"end":4458.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4458.62534375,"end":4462.675343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4462.860968749999,"end":4464.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4464.37971875,"end":4464.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4465.37534375,"end":4472.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4472.614718750001,"end":4477.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4477.440968749999,"end":4478.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4479.0947187500005,"end":4480.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4480.22534375,"end":4484.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4482.4022187499995,"end":4484.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4485.0009687500005,"end":4487.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4489.10159375,"end":4489.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4489.962218750001,"end":4496.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4496.982218749999,"end":4502.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4502.63534375,"end":4516.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4517.4178437499995,"end":4517.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4518.312218749999,"end":4519.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4519.999718749999,"end":4525.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4526.44596875,"end":4527.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4528.639718750001,"end":4532.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4532.200343750001,"end":4533.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4533.600968750001,"end":4540.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4540.55346875,"end":4544.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4545.126593749999,"end":4549.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4548.974093750001,"end":4550.847218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4549.56471875,"end":4550.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4551.640343749999,"end":4553.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4553.91846875,"end":4555.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4556.55096875,"end":4559.284718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4559.53784375,"end":4561.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4561.7822187500005,"end":4567.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4568.565968749999,"end":4572.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4572.885968750001,"end":4575.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4575.974093750001,"end":4577.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4577.712218750001,"end":4581.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4582.57221875,"end":4585.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4587.280343750001,"end":4594.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4594.1990937499995,"end":4595.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4596.25784375,"end":4602.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4602.231593750001,"end":4603.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4604.560343749999,"end":4605.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4607.39534375,"end":4607.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4608.4247187500005,"end":4612.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4612.79534375,"end":4615.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4615.90034375,"end":4625.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4625.991593750001,"end":4629.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4630.37909375,"end":4633.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4634.02409375,"end":4639.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4639.84596875,"end":4640.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4640.87534375,"end":4663.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4662.71159375,"end":4666.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4666.356593750001,"end":4668.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4668.61784375,"end":4671.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4671.35159375,"end":4674.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4674.794093750001,"end":4676.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4675.587218750001,"end":4676.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4676.279093749999,"end":4687.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4679.468468749999,"end":4679.940968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4685.2059687500005,"end":4685.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4687.214093750001,"end":4687.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4687.33221875,"end":4687.534718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4687.534718749999,"end":4701.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4698.4022187499995,"end":4698.925343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4701.33846875,"end":4719.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4719.698468750001,"end":4737.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4737.82221875,"end":4746.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4746.71534375,"end":4747.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4747.727843750001,"end":4756.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4756.84034375,"end":4757.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4757.97096875,"end":4758.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4758.91596875,"end":4761.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4762.155968749999,"end":4763.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4764.11346875,"end":4765.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4765.767218749999,"end":4767.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4768.3153437500005,"end":4768.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4769.44596875,"end":4771.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4777.41096875,"end":4778.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":4779.11534375,"end":4780.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4787.249093750001,"end":4787.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4787.95784375,"end":4788.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4788.7509687500005,"end":4790.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4791.079718749999,"end":4799.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4799.77034375,"end":4800.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4801.255343750001,"end":4801.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4802.40284375,"end":4810.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4810.637843750001,"end":4829.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4829.53784375,"end":4886.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4886.845343749999,"end":4888.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4889.0897187499995,"end":4889.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4890.507218750001,"end":4902.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4903.0790937500005,"end":4925.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4926.40034375,"end":4926.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4927.260968750001,"end":4935.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4936.03596875,"end":4937.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4938.128468750001,"end":4942.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4943.190968750001,"end":4959.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4960.74096875,"end":4992.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4992.887843750001,"end":5008.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5008.311593750001,"end":5010.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5009.239718750001,"end":5013.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5011.214093750001,"end":5011.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5012.12534375,"end":5023.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5013.89721875,"end":5014.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5014.909718750001,"end":5015.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5017.84596875,"end":5019.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5019.921593749999,"end":5019.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5019.9384687500005,"end":5019.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5023.88721875,"end":5024.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5024.62971875,"end":5028.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5025.96284375,"end":5026.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5029.27034375,"end":5034.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5033.69159375,"end":5036.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5035.7840937500005,"end":5040.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5038.686593750001,"end":5039.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5040.47534375,"end":5049.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5050.212218750001,"end":5051.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5050.684718750001,"end":5052.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5052.11909375,"end":5055.595343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5055.94971875,"end":5057.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5057.45159375,"end":5057.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5057.60346875,"end":5066.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5066.88471875,"end":5069.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5069.41596875,"end":5103.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5104.27971875,"end":5108.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5109.44346875,"end":5110.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5111.333468750001,"end":5118.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5117.35784375,"end":5130.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5119.214093750001,"end":5119.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5120.64846875,"end":5121.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5126.335343750001,"end":5126.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5131.19534375,"end":5131.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5131.347218750001,"end":5132.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5135.380343750001,"end":5143.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5141.26971875,"end":5141.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5144.12159375,"end":5154.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5154.044093750001,"end":5155.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5155.32659375,"end":5157.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5157.90846875,"end":5158.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5158.482218749999,"end":5158.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5158.78596875,"end":5159.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5160.70971875,"end":5160.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5161.51971875,"end":5165.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5164.47284375,"end":5164.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5164.725968750001,"end":5176.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5175.087218750001,"end":5179.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5177.432843750001,"end":5223.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5181.263468749999,"end":5181.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5181.29721875,"end":5181.314093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5210.67659375,"end":5210.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5224.46346875,"end":5232.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5233.069718750001,"end":5256.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5247.3290937500005,"end":5247.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5248.74659375,"end":5249.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5252.2059687500005,"end":5252.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5255.800343750001,"end":5295.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5267.798468749999,"end":5268.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5274.19409375,"end":5274.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5282.985968749999,"end":5283.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5283.036593750001,"end":5283.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5283.171593749999,"end":5283.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5294.83221875,"end":5300.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5300.35034375,"end":5300.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5300.384093750001,"end":5301.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5301.919718749999,"end":5302.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5302.93221875,"end":5305.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5305.80096875,"end":5306.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5308.36596875,"end":5311.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5334.640343749999,"end":5335.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5336.800343750001,"end":5337.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5345.659718750001,"end":5346.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5346.35159375,"end":5347.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5347.532843749999,"end":5349.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5350.80659375,"end":5355.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5356.13909375,"end":5359.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5360.17221875,"end":5361.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5362.112843750001,"end":5362.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5363.513468749999,"end":5364.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5364.66096875,"end":5367.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5368.170968750001,"end":5369.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5369.82471875,"end":5372.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5373.35159375,"end":5375.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5376.06846875,"end":5376.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5376.28784375,"end":5376.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5376.827843749999,"end":5379.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5379.882218750001,"end":5380.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5381.13096875,"end":5382.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5384.337218750001,"end":5385.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5386.27784375,"end":5387.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5388.01596875,"end":5388.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5388.319718750001,"end":5390.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5391.20534375,"end":5392.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5392.55534375,"end":5392.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5392.909718750001,"end":5393.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5393.60159375,"end":5395.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5395.69409375,"end":5396.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5397.263468749999,"end":5398.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5398.731593750001,"end":5400.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5400.94221875,"end":5402.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5403.135968750001,"end":5406.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5406.66284375,"end":5407.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5408.50221875,"end":5409.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5410.64534375,"end":5412.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5413.311593750001,"end":5414.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5415.57284375,"end":5418.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5417.59784375,"end":5427.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5427.503468750001,"end":5428.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5427.85784375,"end":5428.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5428.262843750001,"end":5432.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5432.68409375,"end":5435.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5436.362843750001,"end":5438.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5438.235968749999,"end":5438.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5438.69159375,"end":5440.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5438.72534375,"end":5439.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5440.32846875,"end":5441.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5441.93159375,"end":5446.251593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5446.487843750001,"end":5451.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5448.9178437499995,"end":5449.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5451.415343750001,"end":5466.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5461.89471875,"end":5461.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5461.911593750001,"end":5462.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5462.02971875,"end":5462.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5466.180968750001,"end":5466.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5466.602843750001,"end":5466.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5466.72096875,"end":5466.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5466.788468750001,"end":5466.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5466.974093750001,"end":5467.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5467.024718750001,"end":5470.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5470.3153437500005,"end":5474.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5470.8553437499995,"end":5471.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5474.21346875,"end":5474.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5474.804093750001,"end":5479.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5480.1365937499995,"end":5480.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5480.17034375,"end":5480.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5481.14909375,"end":5483.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5483.849093750001,"end":5485.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5485.857218749999,"end":5486.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5487.274718750001,"end":5489.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5489.384093750001,"end":5492.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5493.43409375,"end":5494.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5495.35784375,"end":5495.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5495.6278437500005,"end":5496.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5495.661593750001,"end":5495.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5497.19721875,"end":5499.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5499.374093750001,"end":5501.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5502.1415937500005,"end":5503.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5503.37346875,"end":5504.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5506.208468750001,"end":5506.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5507.187218749999,"end":5507.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5507.96346875,"end":5508.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5508.030968749999,"end":5508.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5508.94221875,"end":5508.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5509.33034375,"end":5509.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5509.347218750001,"end":5509.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5509.9715937500005,"end":5510.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5510.03909375,"end":5510.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5510.96721875,"end":5511.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5511.034718750001,"end":5511.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5511.28784375,"end":5511.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5511.321593750001,"end":5511.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5511.33846875,"end":5511.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5511.456593750001,"end":5511.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5511.743468750001,"end":5511.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5511.7772187499995,"end":5511.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5511.96284375,"end":5512.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5512.030343750001,"end":5513.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5514.882218750001,"end":5516.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5517.936593750001,"end":5519.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5520.045968750001,"end":5521.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5522.17221875,"end":5522.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5523.319718750001,"end":5528.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5523.505343750001,"end":5524.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5528.44971875,"end":5530.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5528.58471875,"end":5528.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5530.997843749999,"end":5533.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5533.47846875,"end":5534.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5534.74409375,"end":5535.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5537.17409375,"end":5538.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5538.10221875,"end":5549.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5546.74221875,"end":5552.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5549.6278437500005,"end":5550.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5553.137843750001,"end":5554.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5554.47096875,"end":5555.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5556.3778437500005,"end":5557.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5560.157843749999,"end":5565.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5566.722218750001,"end":5568.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5569.1522187499995,"end":5570.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5571.413468750001,"end":5572.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5572.915343750001,"end":5573.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5574.872843749999,"end":5574.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5574.889718750001,"end":5575.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5575.210343750001,"end":5575.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5575.294718749999,"end":5575.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5575.9697187500005,"end":5582.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5581.79159375,"end":5598.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5587.66409375,"end":5588.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5588.87909375,"end":5589.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5593.722218750001,"end":5594.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5594.26221875,"end":5594.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5594.279093749999,"end":5594.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5600.0165937500005,"end":5607.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5605.534718750001,"end":5613.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5609.331593750001,"end":5609.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5613.887843750001,"end":5618.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5617.718468749999,"end":5620.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5621.78534375,"end":5632.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5626.24034375,"end":5628.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5628.029093749999,"end":5628.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5628.737843750001,"end":5628.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5632.19721875,"end":5634.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5635.23471875,"end":5637.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5637.95159375,"end":5639.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5640.0272187499995,"end":5642.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5643.4697187500005,"end":5644.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5645.477843750001,"end":5645.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5647.33409375,"end":5649.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5650.202843749999,"end":5660.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5661.1884687500005,"end":5661.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5662.33596875,"end":5663.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5664.66471875,"end":5666.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5666.97659375,"end":5670.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5670.604718750001,"end":5671.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5672.005343750001,"end":5673.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5674.114718750001,"end":5674.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5675.65034375,"end":5677.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5677.94534375,"end":5679.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5680.020968750001,"end":5680.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5681.55659375,"end":5682.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5683.17659375,"end":5684.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5684.577218750001,"end":5687.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5689.2684687500005,"end":5689.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5690.044718749999,"end":5690.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5690.7197187500005,"end":5691.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5693.21721875,"end":5694.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5695.731593750001,"end":5697.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5699.528468750001,"end":5705.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5705.654093749999,"end":5706.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5707.05471875,"end":5707.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5708.74221875,"end":5709.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5709.40034375,"end":5711.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5711.3915937500005,"end":5718.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5718.5634687500005,"end":5722.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5722.56284375,"end":5732.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5728.300343750001,"end":5728.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5732.2997187500005,"end":5741.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5732.620343750001,"end":5732.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5742.44159375,"end":5745.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5746.55909375,"end":5747.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5748.29721875,"end":5749.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5749.98471875,"end":5756.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5756.9540937500005,"end":5757.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5758.725968750001,"end":5759.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5760.312218749999,"end":5761.392218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5762.91096875,"end":5764.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5764.294718749999,"end":5765.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5767.18034375,"end":5768.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5769.779093749999,"end":5770.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5771.58471875,"end":5772.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5773.66034375,"end":5774.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5774.97659375,"end":5776.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5776.630343750001,"end":5777.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5778.132218750001,"end":5778.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5779.499093750001,"end":5780.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5781.70971875,"end":5783.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5784.67971875,"end":5785.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5786.0634687500005,"end":5786.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5787.81846875,"end":5788.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5789.55659375,"end":5790.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5791.64909375,"end":5795.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5795.513468749999,"end":5796.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5796.66096875,"end":5797.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5797.673468749999,"end":5798.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5799.698468750001,"end":5800.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5802.044093750001,"end":5803.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5803.56284375,"end":5805.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5805.58784375,"end":5808.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5810.21159375,"end":5810.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5811.67971875,"end":5812.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5813.620343750001,"end":5815.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5815.679093750001,"end":5816.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5817.40034375,"end":5819.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5819.86409375,"end":5820.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5821.585343750001,"end":5823.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5823.71159375,"end":5824.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5826.040343750001,"end":5827.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5828.97659375,"end":5834.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5831.87909375,"end":5843.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5843.53971875,"end":5843.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5843.708468750001,"end":5857.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5843.8603437500005,"end":5844.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5849.850968750001,"end":5851.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5855.993468750001,"end":5862.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5857.79909375,"end":5858.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5861.984093749999,"end":5862.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5862.456593750001,"end":5862.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5862.89534375,"end":5865.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5865.94971875,"end":5867.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5868.6834687499995,"end":5869.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5869.69596875,"end":5871.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5873.08784375,"end":5873.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5873.560343749999,"end":5875.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5875.956593750001,"end":5876.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5877.779093749999,"end":5879.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5879.432843750001,"end":5880.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5881.13721875,"end":5883.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5884.00596875,"end":5886.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5886.94221875,"end":5889.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5890.94159375,"end":5892.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5893.354718750001,"end":5896.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5897.100968750001,"end":5900.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5900.69534375,"end":5902.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5901.404093749999,"end":5903.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5902.4334687499995,"end":5907.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5907.749093750001,"end":5911.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5913.30096875,"end":5913.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5914.51596875,"end":5916.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5917.38471875,"end":5938.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5923.13909375,"end":5925.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5926.159718750001,"end":5926.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5926.395968750001,"end":5926.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5926.56471875,"end":5926.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5926.9697187500005,"end":5927.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5927.425343750001,"end":5927.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5938.630343750001,"end":5942.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5939.389718750001,"end":5940.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5942.35971875,"end":5942.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5942.62971875,"end":5942.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5943.405968749999,"end":5947.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5947.23659375,"end":5949.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5948.012843750001,"end":5950.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5950.4090937500005,"end":5950.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5951.3709687499995,"end":5951.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5951.40471875,"end":5952.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5952.24846875,"end":5952.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5961.58034375,"end":5964.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5967.16596875,"end":5968.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5969.325968749999,"end":5970.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5974.10159375,"end":5975.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5976.95346875,"end":5977.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5978.64096875,"end":6062.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6063.134093750001,"end":6072.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6073.073468750001,"end":6074.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6075.739718750001,"end":6079.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6078.81096875,"end":6096.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6097.08659375,"end":6103.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6101.87909375,"end":6113.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6104.528468750001,"end":6104.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6106.452218750001,"end":6108.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6109.5740937499995,"end":6112.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6112.88159375,"end":6120.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6116.49284375,"end":6117.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6119.73284375,"end":6123.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6121.2684687500005,"end":6124.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6124.37346875,"end":6126.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6125.58846875,"end":6129.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6127.343468749999,"end":6128.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6128.64284375,"end":6130.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6129.452843749999,"end":6132.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6131.747843749999,"end":6136.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6136.962218750001,"end":6147.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6146.243468750001,"end":6147.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6148.538468750001,"end":6175.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6175.8759687500005,"end":6175.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6175.909718750001,"end":6189.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6175.92659375,"end":6176.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6189.29159375,"end":6194.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6189.7303437499995,"end":6201.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6201.39096875,"end":6207.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6203.905343750001,"end":6206.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6207.48284375,"end":6215.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6215.44784375,"end":6220.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6217.70909375,"end":6225.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6225.96096875,"end":6241.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6241.165343750001,"end":6243.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6242.02596875,"end":6242.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6244.4559687500005,"end":6272.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6269.39721875,"end":6269.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6269.481593750001,"end":6269.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6272.60346875,"end":6285.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6277.817843750001,"end":6277.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6277.85159375,"end":6298.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6285.02346875,"end":6285.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6285.05721875,"end":6285.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6295.13159375,"end":6295.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6295.33409375,"end":6295.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6295.36784375,"end":6296.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6296.97096875,"end":6297.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6298.92846875,"end":6369.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6370.3603437500005,"end":6371.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6371.372843749999,"end":6373.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6373.5497187500005,"end":6382.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6382.155968749999,"end":6395.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6383.03346875,"end":6384.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6396.179093750001,"end":6411.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6411.2147187499995,"end":6417.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6414.72471875,"end":6416.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6416.96909375,"end":6422.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6420.66471875,"end":6421.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6423.0947187500005,"end":6426.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6427.077218750001,"end":6438.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6434.50221875,"end":6435.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6437.809718750001,"end":6446.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6439.59846875,"end":6440.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6441.01596875,"end":6444.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6446.618468750001,"end":6459.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6454.36409375,"end":6489.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6489.58221875,"end":6489.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6489.61596875,"end":6490.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6490.61159375,"end":6490.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6491.53971875,"end":6492.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6494.64471875,"end":6496.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6496.41659375,"end":6496.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6496.534718750001,"end":6496.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6496.669718749999,"end":6498.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6496.720343750001,"end":6496.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6497.614718750001,"end":6497.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6497.64846875,"end":6497.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6497.68221875,"end":6497.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6498.137843750001,"end":6498.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6498.1884687500005,"end":6498.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6498.222218750001,"end":6498.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6498.6103437500005,"end":6498.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6498.66096875,"end":6498.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6498.67784375,"end":6499.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6499.0322187500005,"end":6501.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6501.66471875,"end":6502.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6503.53784375,"end":6506.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6506.389718750001,"end":6509.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6509.950343750001,"end":6513.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6523.19721875,"end":6525.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6525.89721875,"end":6526.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6527.16284375,"end":6528.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6534.67221875,"end":6535.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6535.212218750001,"end":6535.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6535.954718750001,"end":6536.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6537.10221875,"end":6539.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6540.3759687500005,"end":6545.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6545.421593749999,"end":6550.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6551.294093750001,"end":6553.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6554.26409375,"end":6557.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6557.53784375,"end":6563.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6563.68034375,"end":6565.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6565.41846875,"end":6567.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6567.882218750001,"end":6573.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6574.311593750001,"end":6576.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6577.872218750001,"end":6588.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6588.8240937499995,"end":6589.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6589.7353437500005,"end":6593.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6593.667218750001,"end":6596.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6596.9072187500005,"end":6598.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6598.577843749999,"end":6601.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6601.9022187499995,"end":6601.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6601.9697187500005,"end":6602.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6602.02034375,"end":6608.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6608.87159375,"end":6614.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6614.9803437499995,"end":6615.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6615.975968750001,"end":6620.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6621.44346875,"end":6622.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6623.654093749999,"end":6630.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6630.5897187499995,"end":6633.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6634.015343749999,"end":6637.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6638.571593750001,"end":6640.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6640.343468749999,"end":6641.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6642.35159375,"end":6645.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6645.186593750001,"end":6653.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6654.19784375,"end":6657.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6658.19721875,"end":6660.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6660.47534375,"end":6662.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6663.24284375,"end":6666.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6666.34784375,"end":6667.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6667.69784375,"end":6672.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6673.1990937499995,"end":6674.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6675.05534375,"end":6677.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6675.966593749999,"end":6676.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6678.126593750001,"end":6680.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6680.74221875,"end":6682.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6682.98659375,"end":6684.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6686.007218750001,"end":6688.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6688.960343750001,"end":6694.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6694.42784375,"end":6696.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6698.12346875,"end":6698.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6699.76034375,"end":6700.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6700.57034375,"end":6701.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6703.00034375,"end":6704.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6705.413468750001,"end":6707.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6708.2147187499995,"end":6712.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6713.41221875,"end":6717.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6717.698468750001,"end":6720.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6721.157843750001,"end":6724.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6724.80284375,"end":6727.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6729.02159375,"end":6733.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6733.915343750001,"end":6736.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6736.41284375,"end":6738.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6739.112843750001,"end":6739.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6740.26034375,"end":6742.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6740.327843749999,"end":6740.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6740.3447187500005,"end":6741.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6741.036593750001,"end":6741.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6742.92659375,"end":6744.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6744.782843750001,"end":6749.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6749.524718750001,"end":6754.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6754.907843750001,"end":6759.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6759.7509687500005,"end":6761.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6762.450968749999,"end":6763.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6764.40846875,"end":6765.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6765.91034375,"end":6768.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6769.251593750001,"end":6771.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6773.234093749999,"end":6773.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6773.58846875,"end":6774.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6776.288468750001,"end":6778.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6779.9334687499995,"end":6780.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6781.249718749999,"end":6785.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6786.3290937500005,"end":6788.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6788.573468750001,"end":6791.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6791.54346875,"end":6793.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6793.97346875,"end":6800.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6800.77409375,"end":6804.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6805.00971875,"end":6806.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6807.827843749999,"end":6809.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6810.91596875,"end":6811.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6812.13096875,"end":6814.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6814.5947187500005,"end":6816.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6818.30721875,"end":6819.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6820.770968750001,"end":6821.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6822.374093750001,"end":6823.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6824.39909375,"end":6825.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6825.25971875,"end":6826.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6826.997843749999,"end":6829.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6829.51221875,"end":6831.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6831.4697187500005,"end":6832.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6834.43971875,"end":6834.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6835.89096875,"end":6836.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6837.25784375,"end":6838.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6839.13096875,"end":6839.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6840.497843749999,"end":6842.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6843.0965937500005,"end":6846.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6846.91034375,"end":6847.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6846.94409375,"end":6848.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6848.22659375,"end":6859.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6859.56659375,"end":6861.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6859.60034375,"end":6862.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6862.38471875,"end":6862.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6862.55346875,"end":6866.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6862.70534375,"end":6862.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6863.903468750001,"end":6863.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6863.9540937500005,"end":6864.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6864.038468750001,"end":6864.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6866.35034375,"end":6866.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6866.755343750001,"end":6874.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6872.6278437500005,"end":6872.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6874.450343750001,"end":6879.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6877.167218750001,"end":6877.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6879.749093750001,"end":6883.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6882.0272187499995,"end":6882.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6882.34784375,"end":6882.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6883.073468750001,"end":6883.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6883.47846875,"end":6883.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6883.545968750001,"end":6885.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6883.69784375,"end":6884.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6884.153468750001,"end":6884.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6885.739718750001,"end":6887.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6888.15284375,"end":6890.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6891.29159375,"end":6892.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6892.8778437500005,"end":6894.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6895.56096875,"end":6899.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6899.577218750001,"end":6901.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6899.59409375,"end":6900.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6900.75846875,"end":6901.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6901.23096875,"end":6901.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6901.46721875,"end":6908.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6908.92596875,"end":6910.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6910.47846875,"end":6910.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6911.30534375,"end":6913.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6913.38096875,"end":6917.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6918.67971875,"end":6919.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6920.046593750001,"end":6920.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6921.00846875,"end":6922.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6924.14721875,"end":6938.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6939.38534375,"end":6941.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6941.714093750001,"end":6942.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6941.747843749999,"end":6941.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6941.96721875,"end":6942.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6943.013468749999,"end":6948.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6948.71721875,"end":6952.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6952.75034375,"end":6953.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6952.9697187500005,"end":6961.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6956.7665937500005,"end":6957.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6957.137843750001,"end":6957.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6961.170968750001,"end":6962.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6962.858468750001,"end":6964.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6964.69784375,"end":6966.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6966.689093750001,"end":6968.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6969.591593749999,"end":6971.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6972.3759687500005,"end":6973.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6972.49409375,"end":6972.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6973.47284375,"end":6979.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6979.17659375,"end":6980.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6981.134093750001,"end":6983.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6984.357218749999,"end":6987.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6987.47909375,"end":6990.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6990.39846875,"end":6991.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6990.7528437500005,"end":6997.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6997.1990937499995,"end":7000.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6999.932843750001,"end":7005.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7006.024718750001,"end":7008.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7007.50971875,"end":7008.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7009.349093750001,"end":7022.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7014.86721875,"end":7015.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7020.317843750001,"end":7034.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7032.180968750001,"end":7035.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7035.6572187500005,"end":7050.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7039.774718750001,"end":7040.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7041.411593750001,"end":7045.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7051.435343749999,"end":7061.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7051.65471875,"end":7052.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7052.515343750001,"end":7052.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7054.92846875,"end":7055.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7056.075968749999,"end":7056.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7057.08846875,"end":7057.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7059.58596875,"end":7060.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7060.85159375,"end":7061.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7061.948468750001,"end":7062.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7062.33659375,"end":7062.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7062.370343750001,"end":7069.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7063.75409375,"end":7064.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7064.96909375,"end":7066.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7067.17971875,"end":7068.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7069.204718750001,"end":7071.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7069.37346875,"end":7069.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7070.79096875,"end":7082.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7077.25409375,"end":7077.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7082.0634687500005,"end":7086.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7086.61971875,"end":7087.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7087.159718750001,"end":7087.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7087.51409375,"end":7102.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7087.530968750001,"end":7087.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7088.50971875,"end":7090.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7095.9178437499995,"end":7096.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7101.35159375,"end":7101.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7101.90846875,"end":7101.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7101.975968750001,"end":7102.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7102.026593750001,"end":7102.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7102.262843750001,"end":7102.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7102.347218750001,"end":7102.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7102.43159375,"end":7102.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7102.954718750001,"end":7105.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7104.270968750001,"end":7108.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7111.628468750001,"end":7114.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7114.64909375,"end":7114.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7115.02034375,"end":7115.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7128.09846875,"end":7128.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7128.975968750001,"end":7130.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7131.270968750001,"end":7132.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7132.51971875,"end":7133.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7133.83596875,"end":7135.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7135.962218750001,"end":7136.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7137.075968749999,"end":7137.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7137.10971875,"end":7138.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7139.894093750001,"end":7141.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7141.024718750001,"end":7142.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7144.28159375,"end":7145.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7146.23909375,"end":7147.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7147.55534375,"end":7149.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7150.45784375,"end":7151.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7152.179093750001,"end":7152.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7153.51221875,"end":7154.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7154.794718749999,"end":7156.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7156.684718750001,"end":7157.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7158.15284375,"end":7159.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7160.58284375,"end":7160.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7162.169093750001,"end":7164.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7165.628468750001,"end":7172.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7173.1209687499995,"end":7175.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7176.34409375,"end":7177.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7177.23846875,"end":7178.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7179.702218750001,"end":7180.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7180.967843750001,"end":7182.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7183.65096875,"end":7185.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7187.1103437500005,"end":7187.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7188.20721875,"end":7188.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7189.37159375,"end":7190.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7191.44721875,"end":7192.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7192.56096875,"end":7193.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7194.56909375,"end":7196.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7197.0497187500005,"end":7198.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7200.23909375,"end":7201.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7201.47096875,"end":7202.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7203.327218750001,"end":7203.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7205.11596875,"end":7205.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7207.42784375,"end":7209.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7210.077218750001,"end":7215.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7216.50659375,"end":7219.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7220.202218750001,"end":7222.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7222.9022187499995,"end":7224.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7225.298468750001,"end":7225.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7226.429093750001,"end":7228.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7229.12909375,"end":7230.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7231.03596875,"end":7232.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7233.5165937500005,"end":7234.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7235.288468750001,"end":7237.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7238.241593750001,"end":7238.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7239.372218750001,"end":7241.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7241.852843750001,"end":7244.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7245.2615937499995,"end":7245.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7246.307843750001,"end":7247.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7247.82659375,"end":7250.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7251.80909375,"end":7252.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7253.39534375,"end":7254.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7255.47096875,"end":7256.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7256.989718750001,"end":7258.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7259.200343750001,"end":7261.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7262.49096875,"end":7262.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7263.419093750001,"end":7264.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7264.9715937500005,"end":7268.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7269.15659375,"end":7270.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7270.28721875,"end":7271.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7272.90284375,"end":7273.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7274.3709687499995,"end":7277.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7278.57284375,"end":7279.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7280.513468749999,"end":7281.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7282.167218750001,"end":7283.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7284.20909375,"end":7285.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7285.862843750001,"end":7287.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7288.124093750001,"end":7290.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7291.04346875,"end":7293.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7294.907843750001,"end":7295.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7297.253468750001,"end":7299.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7300.45971875,"end":7303.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7305.70784375,"end":7305.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7306.56846875,"end":7308.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7309.015343750001,"end":7309.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7310.60159375,"end":7312.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7313.234093750001,"end":7313.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7313.841593749999,"end":7314.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7315.74846875,"end":7317.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7317.25034375,"end":7319.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7320.11909375,"end":7322.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7322.31284375,"end":7323.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7325.755343750001,"end":7326.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7327.257218750001,"end":7327.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7327.999718750001,"end":7328.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7330.51409375,"end":7332.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7333.686593750001,"end":7334.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7335.34034375,"end":7337.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7338.81659375,"end":7340.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7342.309718750001,"end":7343.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7344.72284375,"end":7345.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7345.19534375,"end":7346.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7347.456593750001,"end":7348.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7348.41846875,"end":7349.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7349.9540937500005,"end":7350.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7351.5740937499995,"end":7352.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7353.177218750001,"end":7354.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7356.40034375,"end":7356.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7357.1259687500005,"end":7357.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7357.919093750001,"end":7361.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7362.5428437499995,"end":7363.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7363.89284375,"end":7364.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7365.63096875,"end":7367.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7368.80346875,"end":7369.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7370.946593750001,"end":7371.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7371.4022187499995,"end":7373.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7373.950343750001,"end":7374.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7375.5028437500005,"end":7376.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7376.751593750001,"end":7378.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7379.519093750001,"end":7379.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7380.464093750001,"end":7380.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7381.763468749999,"end":7383.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7384.66596875,"end":7385.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7387.399718750001,"end":7387.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7388.78346875,"end":7392.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7394.2509687500005,"end":7396.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7397.760968750001,"end":7397.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7398.38534375,"end":7399.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7400.005343750001,"end":7401.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7401.7772187499995,"end":7402.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7403.565968750001,"end":7404.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7405.60784375,"end":7406.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7407.970343750001,"end":7410.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7411.66596875,"end":7413.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7414.55159375,"end":7415.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7416.171593750001,"end":7416.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7417.639718750001,"end":7418.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7418.145968750001,"end":7421.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7421.706593750001,"end":7421.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7422.685343749999,"end":7424.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7425.48659375,"end":7425.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7426.2459687499995,"end":7427.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7428.270968750001,"end":7428.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7428.794093750001,"end":7431.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7431.510968750001,"end":7432.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7433.55284375,"end":7436.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7437.180968750001,"end":7437.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7438.294718749999,"end":7441.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7442.22659375,"end":7443.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7444.200968749999,"end":7446.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7446.9178437499995,"end":7448.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7449.85409375,"end":7450.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7451.03534375,"end":7453.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7453.75221875,"end":7454.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7455.507218750001,"end":7458.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7459.79346875,"end":7460.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7462.358468750001,"end":7462.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7463.2528437500005,"end":7463.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7463.759093750001,"end":7464.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7464.6365937499995,"end":7466.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7466.8134687500005,"end":7468.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7468.83846875,"end":7470.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7470.6103437500005,"end":7471.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7472.55096875,"end":7475.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7477.22534375,"end":7477.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7478.575343750001,"end":7478.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7480.161593750001,"end":7481.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7483.907843750001,"end":7485.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7486.89471875,"end":7487.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7488.497843749999,"end":7489.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7490.26971875,"end":7491.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7492.00784375,"end":7494.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7495.88909375,"end":7496.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7497.62721875,"end":7498.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7499.432843750001,"end":7501.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7502.03159375,"end":7502.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7503.53346875,"end":7503.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7505.45721875,"end":7508.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7508.5115937499995,"end":7509.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7510.31721875,"end":7511.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7512.20721875,"end":7514.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7515.177218750001,"end":7517.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7519.0584687499995,"end":7519.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7520.67846875,"end":7521.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7522.484093750001,"end":7524.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7524.81284375,"end":7525.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7527.58034375,"end":7528.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7528.8290937500005,"end":7529.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7530.4490937499995,"end":7531.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7532.82846875,"end":7534.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7534.88721875,"end":7536.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7537.70534375,"end":7538.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7538.4647187499995,"end":7540.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7541.13096875,"end":7541.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7542.042218750001,"end":7543.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7543.628468750001,"end":7545.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7545.889718750001,"end":7547.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7549.821593750001,"end":7554.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7556.21721875,"end":7556.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7557.0947187500005,"end":7558.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7559.474093750001,"end":7560.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7561.3134687500005,"end":7561.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7562.62971875,"end":7563.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7564.0809687500005,"end":7565.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7565.68409375,"end":7566.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7567.97909375,"end":7568.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7569.37971875,"end":7570.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7571.55659375,"end":7573.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7573.530968750001,"end":7574.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7575.06659375,"end":7576.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7578.795968750001,"end":7581.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7582.626593750001,"end":7582.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7583.08221875,"end":7584.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7585.343468750001,"end":7587.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7588.3134687500005,"end":7589.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7589.83221875,"end":7589.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7590.01784375,"end":7591.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7591.75596875,"end":7592.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7592.5322187500005,"end":7594.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7595.198468750001,"end":7598.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7598.77596875,"end":7600.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7600.395968750001,"end":7601.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7602.28596875,"end":7603.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7605.05346875,"end":7607.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7608.3778437500005,"end":7609.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7610.200343750001,"end":7611.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7611.98909375,"end":7612.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7613.1365937499995,"end":7614.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7614.67221875,"end":7615.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7615.718468750001,"end":7617.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7618.536593750001,"end":7619.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7620.747218750001,"end":7624.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7625.151593750001,"end":7626.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7626.56909375,"end":7627.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7627.75034375,"end":7628.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7629.43784375,"end":7633.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7635.749093750001,"end":7641.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7641.182843750001,"end":7641.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7641.8915937500005,"end":7643.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7643.83221875,"end":7648.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7649.36721875,"end":7651.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7651.071593750001,"end":7651.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7651.08846875,"end":7651.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7651.1053437499995,"end":7651.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7651.69596875,"end":7652.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7652.96159375,"end":7654.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7655.290343750001,"end":7655.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7656.52221875,"end":7657.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7658.17596875,"end":7658.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7659.0028437500005,"end":7662.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7663.6434687500005,"end":7663.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7664.858468750001,"end":7665.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7666.74846875,"end":7667.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7667.87909375,"end":7669.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7670.190968750001,"end":7671.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7671.52409375,"end":7672.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7672.772843750001,"end":7673.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7674.139718750001,"end":7675.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7677.10971875,"end":7678.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7679.21909375,"end":7682.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7683.33659375,"end":7683.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7683.91034375,"end":7685.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7686.0028437500005,"end":7687.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7687.909718750001,"end":7688.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7689.698468750001,"end":7692.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7693.09034375,"end":7694.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7695.33471875,"end":7698.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7699.772843750001,"end":7701.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7701.7978437500005,"end":7703.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7704.05909375,"end":7706.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7707.53534375,"end":7708.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7708.682843750001,"end":7709.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7710.2353437500005,"end":7710.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7711.112843750001,"end":7713.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7714.04909375,"end":7716.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7717.03596875,"end":7718.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7718.77409375,"end":7720.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7720.37721875,"end":7720.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7721.69346875,"end":7722.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7722.25034375,"end":7722.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7722.85784375,"end":7723.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7723.9715937500005,"end":7732.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7725.034718750001,"end":7725.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7730.384093750001,"end":7732.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7732.69596875,"end":7734.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7734.2822187500005,"end":7744.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7743.61409375,"end":7747.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7747.69784375,"end":7761.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7747.98471875,"end":7749.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7758.02534375,"end":7758.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7759.79721875,"end":7760.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7761.029093749999,"end":7766.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7763.796593750001,"end":7764.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7767.57659375,"end":7768.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7768.6903437500005,"end":7770.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7771.42409375,"end":7774.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7774.88346875,"end":7776.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7776.62159375,"end":7777.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7777.88721875,"end":7779.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7779.38909375,"end":7786.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7785.1434687500005,"end":7786.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7786.08846875,"end":7787.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7786.915343750001,"end":7788.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7789.0584687499995,"end":7790.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7790.83034375,"end":7791.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7791.420968750001,"end":7792.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7792.46721875,"end":7792.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7793.41221875,"end":7794.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7794.86346875,"end":7796.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7796.280968750001,"end":7797.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7798.305968750001,"end":7798.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7799.099093750001,"end":7799.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7800.0947187500005,"end":7801.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7802.08596875,"end":7803.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7803.689093750001,"end":7804.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8229.614093750002,"end":8230.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8233.140968750002,"end":8233.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8233.984718750002,"end":8236.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8266.45221875,"end":8269.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8269.675343750001,"end":8270.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8269.962218749999,"end":8270.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8270.72159375,"end":8270.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8270.789093750001,"end":8270.805968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8270.805968749999,"end":8270.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8270.82284375,"end":8270.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8271.07596875,"end":8274.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8273.57346875,"end":8275.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8279.51346875,"end":8280.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8281.082843750002,"end":8289.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8289.53721875,"end":8289.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8290.54971875,"end":8291.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8291.29221875,"end":8291.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8292.051593750002,"end":8292.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8292.08534375,"end":8292.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8292.11909375,"end":8292.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8292.203468750002,"end":8292.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8292.23721875,"end":8293.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8293.82346875,"end":8326.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8327.067218750002,"end":8330.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8330.98221875,"end":8342.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8343.570968750002,"end":8360.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8361.812843750002,"end":8365.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8366.01471875,"end":8368.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8369.457218750002,"end":8370.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8370.030968750001,"end":8370.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8371.49909375,"end":8377.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8378.29971875,"end":8379.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8380.40909375,"end":8383.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8384.121593750002,"end":8386.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8386.78784375,"end":8395.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8395.782218750002,"end":8417.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8417.88846875,"end":8425.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8426.39346875,"end":8428.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8429.684093750002,"end":8430.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8430.98346875,"end":8435.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8436.19784375,"end":8436.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8437.598468750002,"end":8438.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8439.555968750003,"end":8439.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8439.960968750001,"end":8450.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8451.030968750001,"end":8452.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8454.38909375,"end":8454.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8454.405968750001,"end":8454.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8454.473468750002,"end":8454.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8456.633468750002,"end":8462.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8461.847843750002,"end":8466.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8466.74159375,"end":8471.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8471.58471875,"end":8503.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8503.934093750002,"end":8514.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8515.24034375,"end":8515.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8517.062843750002,"end":8523.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8524.184093750002,"end":8525.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8526.867218750001,"end":8526.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8526.90096875,"end":8543.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8537.059718750003,"end":8540.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8543.067218750002,"end":8544.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8546.03721875,"end":8546.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8546.88096875,"end":8568.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8569.13909375,"end":8570.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8570.910968750002,"end":8573.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8574.859718750002,"end":8575.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8576.42909375,"end":8587.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8588.24159375,"end":8590.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8591.430968750003,"end":8595.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8595.97034375,"end":8604.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8604.79596875,"end":8610.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8611.140968750002,"end":8622.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8623.172843750002,"end":8623.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8623.35846875,"end":8623.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8625.83909375,"end":8626.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8627.25659375,"end":8628.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8629.68659375,"end":8630.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8630.024093750002,"end":8630.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8630.19284375,"end":8630.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8630.58096875,"end":8630.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8630.918468750002,"end":8631.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8632.53846875,"end":8636.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8636.082218750002,"end":8637.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8636.09909375,"end":8636.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8638.039718750002,"end":8638.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8638.883468750002,"end":8655.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8655.42096875,"end":8657.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8657.51346875,"end":8661.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8662.20471875,"end":8668.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8669.612843750001,"end":8671.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8669.69721875,"end":8714.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8678.03346875,"end":8678.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8690.75721875,"end":8692.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8692.96784375,"end":8693.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8704.476593750001,"end":8704.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8710.484093750001,"end":8747.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8714.90534375,"end":8715.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8718.870968750001,"end":8720.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8720.69346875,"end":8722.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8748.030968750001,"end":8751.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8752.570343750001,"end":8752.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8753.464718750001,"end":8754.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8753.464718750001,"end":8756.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8756.687843750002,"end":8757.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8757.683468750001,"end":8772.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8772.617843750002,"end":8778.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8778.59159375,"end":8792.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8793.390968750002,"end":8794.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8794.184093750002,"end":8795.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8795.500343750002,"end":8795.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8795.601593750001,"end":8795.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8796.25971875,"end":8812.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8802.33471875,"end":8802.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8802.452843750001,"end":8802.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8811.784718750001,"end":8812.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8812.51034375,"end":8820.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8819.496593750002,"end":8821.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8821.69034375,"end":8825.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8826.85409375,"end":8827.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8827.49534375,"end":8828.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8832.895343750002,"end":8834.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8839.476593750001,"end":8841.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8842.04159375,"end":8843.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8849.41596875,"end":8850.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8850.36096875,"end":8881.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8850.41159375,"end":8850.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8850.917843750001,"end":8850.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8853.499718750001,"end":8853.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8882.659718750001,"end":8882.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8882.676593750002,"end":8892.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8892.34596875,"end":8902.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8902.36971875,"end":8906.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8907.16221875,"end":8908.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8909.33909375,"end":8909.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8909.37284375,"end":8909.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8909.96346875,"end":8910.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8910.030968750001,"end":8910.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8910.23346875,"end":8914.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8914.722218750001,"end":8922.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8923.075343750003,"end":8927.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8926.652843750002,"end":8928.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8928.289718750002,"end":8929.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8928.88034375,"end":8931.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8930.38221875,"end":8949.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8948.438468750002,"end":9007.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8964.098468750002,"end":8964.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8964.97596875,"end":8965.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8985.27659375,"end":8986.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8998.422218750002,"end":8998.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8998.540343750003,"end":8998.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8998.624718750001,"end":8998.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8998.675343750001,"end":8998.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9008.226593750001,"end":9020.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9020.84909375,"end":9027.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9027.683468750001,"end":9031.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9031.969718750002,"end":9032.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9032.56034375,"end":9040.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9040.457843750002,"end":9043.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9043.562843750002,"end":9063.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9054.34596875,"end":9054.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9054.97034375,"end":9055.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9064.09971875,"end":9064.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9064.11659375,"end":9064.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9064.133468750002,"end":9086.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9080.485343750002,"end":9081.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9086.66159375,"end":9089.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9089.800343750001,"end":9099.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9099.520343750002,"end":9101.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9101.74784375,"end":9114.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9113.56034375,"end":9115.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9114.84284375,"end":9136.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9115.14659375,"end":9115.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9136.03784375,"end":9136.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9136.30784375,"end":9136.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9136.35846875,"end":9136.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9136.44284375,"end":9136.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9136.493468750003,"end":9136.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9136.66221875,"end":9136.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9136.965968750003,"end":9142.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9142.855343750001,"end":9142.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9142.88909375,"end":9187.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9187.692218750002,"end":9226.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9227.06159375,"end":9249.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9238.01346875,"end":9240.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9249.79221875,"end":9249.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9249.89346875,"end":9251.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9249.910343750002,"end":9250.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9251.395343750002,"end":9286.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9259.731593750003,"end":9259.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9259.765343750001,"end":9259.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9259.95096875,"end":9259.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9286.731593750003,"end":9288.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9288.43596875,"end":9294.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9294.780968750001,"end":9295.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9295.590968750003,"end":9316.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9317.17409375,"end":9322.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9323.417843750001,"end":9344.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9344.477843750003,"end":9344.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9344.49471875,"end":9344.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9344.71409375,"end":9345.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9345.28784375,"end":9350.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9350.367218750001,"end":9352.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9352.493468750003,"end":9355.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9352.56096875,"end":9354.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9354.315968750001,"end":9354.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9354.332843750002,"end":9354.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9354.34971875,"end":9354.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9354.383468750002,"end":9354.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9355.649093750002,"end":9357.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9356.67846875,"end":9356.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9358.230968750002,"end":9360.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9360.40784375,"end":9360.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9361.285343750002,"end":9361.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9362.85471875,"end":9363.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9364.79534375,"end":9366.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9367.27596875,"end":9369.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9395.136593750001,"end":9397.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9397.634093750003,"end":9397.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9407.809718750003,"end":9410.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9411.15096875,"end":9412.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9412.382843750001,"end":9412.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9413.20971875,"end":9413.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9414.711593750002,"end":9415.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9421.27596875,"end":9421.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9421.292843750001,"end":9421.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9422.102843750003,"end":9423.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9424.17846875,"end":9426.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9426.70971875,"end":9428.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9428.734718750002,"end":9430.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9431.50221875,"end":9432.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9432.362843750001,"end":9434.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9434.45534375,"end":9438.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9438.62346875,"end":9439.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9439.78784375,"end":9440.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9441.27284375,"end":9450.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9451.212218750003,"end":9455.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9455.532218750002,"end":9457.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9459.059093750002,"end":9460.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9461.050343750001,"end":9464.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9464.72909375,"end":9480.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9480.33846875,"end":9483.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9483.39284375,"end":9483.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9483.747218750003,"end":9505.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9500.774093750002,"end":9501.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9505.44846875,"end":9505.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9505.769093750001,"end":9542.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9543.687218750001,"end":9546.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9547.028468750003,"end":9556.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9555.68534375,"end":9591.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9591.34221875,"end":9592.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9592.86096875,"end":9593.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9593.063468750002,"end":9599.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9599.594093750002,"end":9599.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9599.93159375,"end":9604.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9601.72034375,"end":9601.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9601.73721875,"end":9602.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9604.26846875,"end":9618.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9608.875343750002,"end":9608.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9616.03034375,"end":9629.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9624.72096875,"end":9626.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9627.84284375,"end":9645.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9630.20534375,"end":9632.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9645.477218750002,"end":9648.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9648.91971875,"end":9651.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9650.910968750002,"end":9653.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9651.754718750002,"end":9651.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9653.425343750001,"end":9654.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9654.758468750002,"end":9658.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9657.88034375,"end":9699.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9659.93909375,"end":9662.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9668.91659375,"end":9668.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9668.950343750003,"end":9668.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9668.984093750001,"end":9669.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9678.02909375,"end":9679.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9681.15096875,"end":9683.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9689.36909375,"end":9689.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9692.980343750001,"end":9693.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9694.684718750003,"end":9695.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9699.03846875,"end":9704.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9705.062843750002,"end":9705.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9706.547843750002,"end":9706.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9707.20596875,"end":9708.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9710.41221875,"end":9711.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9718.86659375,"end":9723.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9724.43534375,"end":9725.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9725.92034375,"end":9726.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9728.046593750001,"end":9728.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9730.81409375,"end":9735.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9735.20159375,"end":9736.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9737.47971875,"end":9737.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9737.496593750002,"end":9737.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9737.51346875,"end":9737.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9739.133468750002,"end":9739.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9739.96034375,"end":9742.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9742.187843750002,"end":9744.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9744.95534375,"end":9745.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9745.343468750001,"end":9746.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9746.406593750002,"end":9748.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9748.06034375,"end":9754.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9754.219718750002,"end":9764.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9764.074718750002,"end":9764.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9764.918468750002,"end":9768.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9766.437218750001,"end":9769.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9769.829093750002,"end":9771.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9775.43159375,"end":9777.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9778.620968750001,"end":9779.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9779.684093750002,"end":9781.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9781.793468750002,"end":9787.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9788.492843750002,"end":9797.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9798.80346875,"end":9810.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9810.46409375,"end":9818.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9819.03659375,"end":9822.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9823.79534375,"end":9839.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9839.792843750001,"end":9840.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9840.09659375,"end":9863.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9858.372218750003,"end":9858.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9863.14784375,"end":9865.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9866.472218750001,"end":9879.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9879.347843750002,"end":9880.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9879.516593750002,"end":9894.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9895.26096875,"end":9898.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9898.602218750002,"end":9899.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9899.547218750002,"end":9901.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9901.99409375,"end":9902.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9903.05721875,"end":9911.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9908.507843750001,"end":9908.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9908.524718750003,"end":9908.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9908.929718750001,"end":9908.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9911.86596875,"end":9912.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9913.03034375,"end":9914.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9914.009093750003,"end":9923.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9923.72909375,"end":9926.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9926.46284375,"end":9934.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9934.140968750002,"end":9941.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9934.15784375,"end":9935.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9938.71409375,"end":9939.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9941.059718750003,"end":9959.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9958.22159375,"end":9958.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9959.504093750002,"end":9959.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9959.80784375,"end":9960.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9960.719093750002,"end":9962.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9962.96346875,"end":9964.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9965.96721875,"end":9968.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9977.20596875,"end":9978.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9978.99471875,"end":9980.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9981.10409375,"end":9982.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9990.90846875,"end":9991.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9991.465343750002,"end":9993.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9994.48596875,"end":9995.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9995.160968750002,"end":10002.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10003.56471875,"end":10005.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10006.399718750003,"end":10010.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10011.563468750002,"end":10011.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10011.968468750001,"end":10013.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10014.398468750001,"end":10014.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10015.54596875,"end":10069.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10056.535343750002,"end":10057.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10066.05284375,"end":10067.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10069.00596875,"end":10070.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10070.71034375,"end":10070.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10070.727218750002,"end":10071.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10071.419093750003,"end":10077.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10078.590968750003,"end":10080.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10080.86909375,"end":10090.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10090.72409375,"end":10092.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10092.74909375,"end":10096.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10096.91721875,"end":10104.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10104.13971875,"end":10105.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10106.24909375,"end":10109.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10109.370968750001,"end":10109.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10109.97846875,"end":10110.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10110.805343750002,"end":10112.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10113.066593750002,"end":10119.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10120.27221875,"end":10121.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10122.78659375,"end":10126.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10127.66346875,"end":10129.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10129.992218750001,"end":10133.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10134.059093750002,"end":10135.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10136.016593750002,"end":10137.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10138.09221875,"end":10140.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10141.180343750002,"end":10142.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10143.15471875,"end":10146.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10146.344093750002,"end":10148.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10149.465968750003,"end":10154.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10154.258468750002,"end":10157.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10158.359093750001,"end":10162.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10163.45534375,"end":10166.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10167.99471875,"end":10171.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10172.09534375,"end":10174.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10174.407218750002,"end":10174.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10174.59284375,"end":10178.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10178.81159375,"end":10179.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10180.667843750001,"end":10182.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10182.92909375,"end":10196.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10196.56409375,"end":10219.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10219.29471875,"end":10220.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10221.387218750002,"end":10223.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10224.441593750002,"end":10227.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10227.512843750003,"end":10228.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10228.96409375,"end":10242.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10242.86909375,"end":10246.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10246.919093750003,"end":10250.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10250.14221875,"end":10253.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10254.141593750002,"end":10256.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10256.925968750002,"end":10257.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10257.989093750002,"end":10258.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10261.313468750002,"end":10262.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10262.54534375,"end":10283.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10277.46284375,"end":10278.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10279.15034375,"end":10280.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10283.33534375,"end":10287.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10287.992843750002,"end":10289.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10289.612843750001,"end":10289.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10290.16971875,"end":10290.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10290.18659375,"end":10291.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10291.13159375,"end":10291.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10291.38471875,"end":10291.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10291.82346875,"end":10291.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10291.941593750002,"end":10291.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10291.95846875,"end":10291.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10291.97534375,"end":10292.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10292.042843750001,"end":10292.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10292.22846875,"end":10294.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10294.962218750003,"end":10297.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10297.375343750002,"end":10299.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10300.446593750003,"end":10302.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10303.011593750001,"end":10304.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10304.90159375,"end":10307.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10308.715343750002,"end":10311.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10312.20846875,"end":10319.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10319.633468750002,"end":10322.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10322.92409375,"end":10324.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10325.421593750001,"end":10326.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10326.687218750001,"end":10328.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10328.66159375,"end":10340.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10340.575343750003,"end":10341.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10342.38096875,"end":10344.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10345.08096875,"end":10349.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10350.227843750003,"end":10354.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10354.66596875,"end":10357.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10358.024093750002,"end":10360.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10361.770343750002,"end":10368.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10368.85784375,"end":10373.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10374.19034375,"end":10385.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10386.137843750003,"end":10387.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10388.01096875,"end":10389.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10389.58034375,"end":10392.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10393.05659375,"end":10396.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10396.735343750002,"end":10399.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10400.38034375,"end":10402.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10404.059093750002,"end":10412.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10412.56409375,"end":10414.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10414.403468750003,"end":10415.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10416.344093750002,"end":10417.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10417.89659375,"end":10421.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10417.91346875,"end":10418.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10422.11534375,"end":10430.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10430.75534375,"end":10434.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10435.56471875,"end":10443.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10443.023468750001,"end":10444.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10444.57596875,"end":10452.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10452.76034375,"end":10455.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10456.219718750002,"end":10459.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10460.691593750002,"end":10460.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10460.70846875,"end":10467.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10466.918468750002,"end":10470.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10467.89721875,"end":10468.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10468.84221875,"end":10469.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10469.753468750001,"end":10471.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10471.019093750001,"end":10475.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10475.54159375,"end":10476.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10476.773468750001,"end":10477.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10478.106593750003,"end":10478.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10479.726593750001,"end":10482.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10482.848468750002,"end":10492.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10492.602218750002,"end":10510.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10510.70909375,"end":10513.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10514.286593750003,"end":10517.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10517.94846875,"end":10518.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10518.37034375,"end":10521.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10522.15034375,"end":10525.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10526.04846875,"end":10528.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10528.74846875,"end":10532.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10533.13596875,"end":10534.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10535.532218750002,"end":10537.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10537.38846875,"end":10541.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10541.961593750002,"end":10543.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10544.543468750002,"end":10546.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10547.20971875,"end":10548.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10549.20096875,"end":10551.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10552.22159375,"end":10554.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10554.870968750001,"end":10556.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10556.64284375,"end":10556.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10556.86221875,"end":10559.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10559.49471875,"end":10565.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10566.278468750003,"end":10566.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10567.67909375,"end":10567.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10567.71284375,"end":10569.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10569.83909375,"end":10571.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10572.657218750002,"end":10572.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10573.855343750001,"end":10574.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10574.51346875,"end":10575.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10576.09971875,"end":10578.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10586.258468750002,"end":10590.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10590.76409375,"end":10591.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10591.45596875,"end":10592.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10592.97471875,"end":10593.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10594.965968750003,"end":10595.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10596.02909375,"end":10596.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10596.062843750002,"end":10599.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10601.95221875,"end":10602.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10602.74534375,"end":10604.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10604.550968750002,"end":10608.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10609.242218750001,"end":10623.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10623.737843750001,"end":10625.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10626.167843750001,"end":10629.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10629.84659375,"end":10637.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10638.098468750002,"end":10640.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10640.96721875,"end":10643.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10644.29159375,"end":10646.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10647.02534375,"end":10648.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10647.04221875,"end":10647.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10648.76346875,"end":10657.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10655.294093750003,"end":10657.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10658.230343750001,"end":10667.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10667.81534375,"end":10680.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10678.36221875,"end":10678.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10679.98221875,"end":10680.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10681.349093750003,"end":10683.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10683.762218750002,"end":10687.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10688.622218750003,"end":10690.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10690.883468750002,"end":10693.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10694.410343750002,"end":10694.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10696.90784375,"end":10700.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10697.44784375,"end":10698.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10701.39659375,"end":10703.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10703.87721875,"end":10704.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10704.180968750003,"end":10713.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10704.19784375,"end":10704.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10704.24846875,"end":10704.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10709.344718750002,"end":10710.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10713.74909375,"end":10714.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10714.64346875,"end":10716.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10717.208468750003,"end":10723.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10722.473468750002,"end":10722.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10723.266593750002,"end":10733.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10732.83471875,"end":10734.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10733.61096875,"end":10735.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10734.859718750002,"end":10738.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10735.450343750003,"end":10735.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10737.47534375,"end":10739.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10738.84221875,"end":10741.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10740.192218750002,"end":10762.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10762.872218750003,"end":10769.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10769.706593750001,"end":10779.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10776.405968750001,"end":10777.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10780.43909375,"end":10781.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10781.08034375,"end":10781.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10781.265968750002,"end":10790.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10781.28284375,"end":10781.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10791.30659375,"end":10795.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10795.52534375,"end":10799.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10799.42346875,"end":10800.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10799.457218750002,"end":10799.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10799.625968750002,"end":10801.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10801.988468750002,"end":10803.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10803.23721875,"end":10804.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10804.215968750003,"end":10805.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10805.66721875,"end":10811.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10811.23596875,"end":10821.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10820.43284375,"end":10839.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10822.407218750002,"end":10822.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10824.246593750002,"end":10825.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10833.207218750002,"end":10834.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10836.76784375,"end":10839.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10840.007843750001,"end":10841.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10841.712218750003,"end":10842.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10843.51784375,"end":10846.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10846.67346875,"end":10846.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10846.808468750001,"end":10857.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10846.926593750002,"end":10847.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10847.297843750002,"end":10847.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10848.867218750001,"end":10849.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10857.13596875,"end":10862.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10865.08409375,"end":10865.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10866.50159375,"end":10868.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10867.83471875,"end":10868.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10869.066593750002,"end":10870.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10870.905968750001,"end":10873.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10873.302218750003,"end":10873.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10873.335968750001,"end":10873.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10873.403468750003,"end":10896.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10897.24784375,"end":10921.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10921.395968750003,"end":10939.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10940.110343750002,"end":10960.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10960.140968750002,"end":10973.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10974.67034375,"end":10982.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10978.180343750002,"end":10980.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10980.69471875,"end":10980.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10982.85471875,"end":10989.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10990.06034375,"end":10994.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10995.477218750002,"end":11006.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11007.087218750003,"end":11010.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11010.445343750001,"end":11014.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11015.609093750001,"end":11017.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11018.612843750001,"end":11021.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11020.215968750003,"end":11063.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11064.10784375,"end":11076.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11077.219718750002,"end":11084.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11085.555968750003,"end":11086.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11086.46721875,"end":11103.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11102.49846875,"end":11110.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11103.527843750002,"end":11103.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11103.696593750003,"end":11103.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11110.66596875,"end":11117.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11117.43284375,"end":11122.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11122.54596875,"end":11124.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11123.507843750001,"end":11126.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11124.824093750001,"end":11125.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11125.38096875,"end":11136.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11126.950343750003,"end":11126.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11136.72096875,"end":11137.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11137.817843750003,"end":11149.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11149.69784375,"end":11204.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11204.558468750001,"end":11208.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11205.55409375,"end":11205.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11207.12346875,"end":11208.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11208.945968750002,"end":11208.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11208.96284375,"end":11209.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11209.249718750001,"end":11209.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11209.958468750003,"end":11211.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11212.320968750002,"end":11213.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11213.19846875,"end":11217.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11217.265343750001,"end":11220.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11220.606593750003,"end":11220.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11221.36596875,"end":11222.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11227.15409375,"end":11230.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11235.86159375,"end":11236.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11237.07659375,"end":11239.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11240.839718750001,"end":11243.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11247.134093750003,"end":11254.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11250.863468750002,"end":11251.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11254.57596875,"end":11259.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11259.773468750001,"end":11259.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11259.85784375,"end":11262.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11263.08096875,"end":11265.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11266.152218750001,"end":11271.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11271.94034375,"end":11272.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11272.46346875,"end":11272.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11273.61096875,"end":11275.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11277.20534375,"end":11278.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11279.16284375,"end":11281.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11281.812218750001,"end":11282.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11283.094718750002,"end":11285.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11285.895968750003,"end":11289.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11289.625343750002,"end":11292.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11292.93284375,"end":11297.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11298.19784375,"end":11300.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11301.505343750003,"end":11301.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11301.977843750003,"end":11303.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11304.239093750002,"end":11304.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11305.69034375,"end":11311.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11310.027218750001,"end":11312.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11312.71034375,"end":11312.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11312.81159375,"end":11312.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11312.895968750003,"end":11313.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11313.53721875,"end":11314.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11314.81971875,"end":11318.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11314.97159375,"end":11315.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11316.43971875,"end":11320.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11320.86096875,"end":11330.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11329.73721875,"end":11333.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11333.46659375,"end":11340.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11340.469718750002,"end":11345.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11340.570968750002,"end":11340.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11345.734718750002,"end":11348.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11348.839718750001,"end":11351.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11353.04159375,"end":11353.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11354.003468750001,"end":11356.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11357.00721875,"end":11363.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11364.364718750003,"end":11379.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11378.94471875,"end":11378.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11378.961593750002,"end":11384.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11384.749718750001,"end":11386.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11387.179718750001,"end":11388.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11387.331593750001,"end":11394.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11393.558468750001,"end":11396.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11396.74784375,"end":11399.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11399.66721875,"end":11407.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11402.333468750003,"end":11404.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11404.122218750003,"end":11404.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11404.25721875,"end":11404.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11407.750343750002,"end":11413.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11414.027843750002,"end":11416.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11417.200343750003,"end":11422.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11422.718468750001,"end":11427.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11428.371593750002,"end":11429.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11430.93659375,"end":11433.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11433.99096875,"end":11439.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11440.285343750002,"end":11442.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11443.05284375,"end":11444.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11444.875343750002,"end":11446.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11446.90034375,"end":11448.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11450.089718750001,"end":11450.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11451.726593750001,"end":11453.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11453.886593750001,"end":11459.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11459.640968750002,"end":11461.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11462.03721875,"end":11463.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11465.192843750003,"end":11469.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11470.019093750001,"end":11473.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11475.16596875,"end":11476.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11476.161593750003,"end":11480.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11480.76846875,"end":11487.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11487.214718750001,"end":11494.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11495.36534375,"end":11500.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11495.43284375,"end":11496.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11500.96784375,"end":11507.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11508.91596875,"end":11516.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11516.442218750002,"end":11523.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11524.37346875,"end":11531.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11532.827843750001,"end":11535.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11535.91596875,"end":11538.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11538.56534375,"end":11539.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11540.472218750001,"end":11541.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11541.231593750003,"end":11542.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11543.52659375,"end":11545.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11545.56846875,"end":11546.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11547.20534375,"end":11549.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11549.601593750001,"end":11550.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11550.63096875,"end":11552.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11553.499718750001,"end":11558.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11559.08534375,"end":11560.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11560.40159375,"end":11568.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11568.434093750002,"end":11576.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11574.15471875,"end":11580.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11577.293468750002,"end":11577.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11578.255343750003,"end":11578.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11580.972218750001,"end":11583.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11583.90846875,"end":11583.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11583.97596875,"end":11584.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11584.12784375,"end":11584.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11585.190968750001,"end":11592.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11593.03784375,"end":11596.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11596.800968750002,"end":11603.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11604.833468750003,"end":11606.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11606.976593750001,"end":11608.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11608.832843750002,"end":11609.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11610.26721875,"end":11613.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11613.38909375,"end":11614.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11615.07659375,"end":11623.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11622.61971875,"end":11636.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11624.10471875,"end":11624.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11624.965343750002,"end":11625.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11626.855343750001,"end":11627.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11634.53346875,"end":11634.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11639.39346875,"end":11645.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11646.24471875,"end":11653.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11654.04096875,"end":11659.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11660.284718750001,"end":11663.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11664.38534375,"end":11669.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11670.105968750002,"end":11670.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11671.43909375,"end":11672.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11673.329093750002,"end":11674.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11677.04159375,"end":11681.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11681.597843750002,"end":11681.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11681.88471875,"end":11682.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11683.36971875,"end":11689.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11691.58784375,"end":11692.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11693.612843750001,"end":11694.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11694.64221875,"end":11715.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11707.99034375,"end":11708.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11708.867843750002,"end":11711.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11715.80346875,"end":11722.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11716.10721875,"end":11716.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11723.684093750002,"end":11727.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11728.30784375,"end":11729.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11729.387843750003,"end":11733.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11734.41659375,"end":11735.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11734.551593750002,"end":11734.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11735.024093750002,"end":11740.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11735.26034375,"end":11744.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11740.035968750002,"end":11740.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11740.57596875,"end":11740.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11742.33096875,"end":11742.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11743.86659375,"end":11743.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11745.503468750001,"end":11747.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11747.44409375,"end":11747.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11749.13159375,"end":11749.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11749.148468750001,"end":11749.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11749.587218750003,"end":11749.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11756.92784375,"end":11759.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11759.88096875,"end":11760.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11767.91346875,"end":11769.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11769.16221875,"end":11770.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11778.61221875,"end":11779.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11780.18159375,"end":11784.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11784.974093750003,"end":11787.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11788.29846875,"end":11791.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11791.808468750001,"end":11795.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11796.06096875,"end":11809.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11810.067218750002,"end":11812.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11813.340968750003,"end":11821.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11822.352218750002,"end":11838.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11839.902218750001,"end":11841.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11840.08784375,"end":11840.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11840.10471875,"end":11840.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11841.03284375,"end":11841.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11841.37034375,"end":11842.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11842.450343750003,"end":11851.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11851.512218750002,"end":11854.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11854.49909375,"end":11857.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11854.515968750002,"end":11855.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11856.16971875,"end":11857.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11857.992218750001,"end":11859.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11859.56159375,"end":11861.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11861.839718750001,"end":11866.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11867.10471875,"end":11887.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11887.33784375,"end":11889.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11889.852218750002,"end":11903.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11904.21284375,"end":11906.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11906.659718750001,"end":11909.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11909.34284375,"end":11909.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11910.50721875,"end":11910.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11911.047218750002,"end":11924.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11924.243468750003,"end":11925.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11925.62721875,"end":11941.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11936.039093750001,"end":11937.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11937.81096875,"end":11941.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11942.114093750002,"end":11945.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11946.36659375,"end":11954.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11954.989718750003,"end":11958.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11959.84971875,"end":11965.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11966.02596875,"end":11966.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11968.03409375,"end":11969.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11970.61596875,"end":11973.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11973.67034375,"end":11978.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11978.547218750002,"end":11984.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11985.449093750001,"end":11988.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11988.70596875,"end":11994.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11994.81471875,"end":12000.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12000.45096875,"end":12009.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12010.019093750001,"end":12018.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12019.80659375,"end":12032.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12032.294093750003,"end":12035.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12036.79971875,"end":12038.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12038.925968750002,"end":12039.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12039.43221875,"end":12040.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12040.91721875,"end":12044.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12045.55784375,"end":12047.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12054.535343750002,"end":12056.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12056.965343750002,"end":12058.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12057.03284375,"end":12058.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12058.484093750001,"end":12060.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12061.926593750002,"end":12062.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12065.95971875,"end":12065.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12065.976593750001,"end":12067.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12067.039718750002,"end":12070.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12070.296593750001,"end":12075.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12075.949718750002,"end":12078.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12078.430343750002,"end":12083.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12083.77971875,"end":12085.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12085.66971875,"end":12089.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12090.22596875,"end":12103.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12105.953468750002,"end":12106.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12107.10096875,"end":12111.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12111.15096875,"end":12112.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12112.88909375,"end":12115.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12112.99034375,"end":12113.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12114.509093750003,"end":12116.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12115.555343750002,"end":12120.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12120.73596875,"end":12137.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12137.93159375,"end":12142.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12143.145968750003,"end":12147.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12143.179718750001,"end":12143.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12147.449093750001,"end":12151.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12152.96721875,"end":12161.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12161.590343750002,"end":12169.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12169.977218750002,"end":12184.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12177.874718750001,"end":12177.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12177.90846875,"end":12178.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12184.692218750002,"end":12197.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12196.53846875,"end":12198.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12198.074093750001,"end":12199.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12200.082218750002,"end":12200.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12200.84159375,"end":12206.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12206.984093750001,"end":12207.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12208.047218750002,"end":12225.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12225.968468750001,"end":12232.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12241.645343750002,"end":12247.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12248.00721875,"end":12250.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12250.21784375,"end":12268.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12260.22471875,"end":12261.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12261.034718750001,"end":12261.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12261.355343750001,"end":12261.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12262.266593750002,"end":12262.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12262.28346875,"end":12262.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12268.40909375,"end":12269.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12269.52284375,"end":12275.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12276.69471875,"end":12283.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12283.934093750002,"end":12287.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12287.91659375,"end":12289.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12292.70909375,"end":12297.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12297.214718750001,"end":12303.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12303.79596875,"end":12308.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12309.145343750002,"end":12319.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12320.14784375,"end":12323.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12323.97846875,"end":12325.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12325.750343750002,"end":12356.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12352.395968750003,"end":12352.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12356.327843750001,"end":12358.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12358.065968750001,"end":12358.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12359.230343750001,"end":12360.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12360.765968750002,"end":12361.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12362.68971875,"end":12369.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12369.81096875,"end":12372.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12372.76409375,"end":12373.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12373.995968750001,"end":12375.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12376.274093750002,"end":12378.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12382.36596875,"end":12386.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12386.68596875,"end":12388.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12388.390343750001,"end":12389.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12393.63846875,"end":12393.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12394.262843750003,"end":12394.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12394.27971875,"end":12394.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12394.97159375,"end":12395.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12395.258468750002,"end":12395.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12395.27534375,"end":12396.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12396.49034375,"end":12404.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12404.370968750001,"end":12408.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12409.230968750002,"end":12413.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12414.040343750003,"end":12417.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12417.53346875,"end":12420.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12420.53721875,"end":12427.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12427.590968750003,"end":12428.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12428.907218750002,"end":12439.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12430.98284375,"end":12431.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12431.30346875,"end":12431.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12435.488468750002,"end":12435.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12435.505343750003,"end":12435.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12437.547218750002,"end":12437.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12439.403468750003,"end":12439.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12439.62284375,"end":12458.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12445.815968750001,"end":12447.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12447.11534375,"end":12447.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12456.278468750003,"end":12466.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12466.977218750002,"end":12467.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12467.247218750003,"end":12476.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12476.59596875,"end":12496.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12496.84596875,"end":12503.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12503.37659375,"end":12511.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12512.18534375,"end":12525.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12525.516593750002,"end":12533.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12533.32971875,"end":12533.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12533.414093750001,"end":12543.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12543.52221875,"end":12545.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12546.10409375,"end":12548.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12549.445343750001,"end":12569.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12569.89784375,"end":12570.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12570.167843750001,"end":12598.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12599.024093750002,"end":12600.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12600.340343750002,"end":12613.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12614.380343750003,"end":12622.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12623.543468750002,"end":12626.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12627.593468750001,"end":12659.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12632.875343750002,"end":12632.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12632.95971875,"end":12632.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12632.976593750001,"end":12633.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12643.118468750003,"end":12643.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12660.16221875,"end":12663.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12664.161593750003,"end":12670.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12667.82346875,"end":12687.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12672.02534375,"end":12672.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12682.04909375,"end":12684.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12687.246593750002,"end":12693.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12688.208468750003,"end":12689.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12694.40159375,"end":12699.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12698.82284375,"end":12705.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12705.285968750002,"end":12713.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12707.41221875,"end":12707.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12708.070343750001,"end":12708.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12711.74909375,"end":12717.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12714.16221875,"end":12714.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12716.052218750003,"end":12716.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12716.06909375,"end":12720.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12717.824093750001,"end":12717.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12721.317218750002,"end":12723.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12732.488468750002,"end":12735.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":12735.762218750002,"end":12737.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12743.37284375,"end":12743.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12744.469718750002,"end":12745.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12745.92096875,"end":12797.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12798.16596875,"end":12806.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12807.261593750001,"end":12811.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12811.21034375,"end":12827.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12826.954718750003,"end":12829.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12828.524093750002,"end":12829.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12829.65471875,"end":12831.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12831.949718750002,"end":12846.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12832.000343750002,"end":12832.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12847.54221875,"end":12860.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12861.39659375,"end":12865.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12865.952843750001,"end":12870.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12870.74534375,"end":12875.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12871.04909375,"end":12872.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12875.048468750003,"end":12876.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12876.11159375,"end":12879.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12877.984718750002,"end":12883.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12883.317218750002,"end":12887.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12883.35096875,"end":12883.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12887.805968750003,"end":12903.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12904.07346875,"end":12904.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12904.12409375,"end":12904.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12904.86659375,"end":12904.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12904.883468750002,"end":12904.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12904.95096875,"end":12905.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12905.085968750001,"end":12905.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12905.17034375,"end":12915.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12915.801593750002,"end":12915.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12916.24034375,"end":12916.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12916.274093750002,"end":12924.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12921.15096875,"end":12922.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12924.542843750001,"end":12924.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12924.559718750003,"end":12924.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12924.74534375,"end":12924.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12924.829718750003,"end":12931.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12931.832843750002,"end":12935.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12935.849093750003,"end":12937.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12937.637843750003,"end":12940.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12940.793468750002,"end":12945.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12945.19784375,"end":12994.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12950.85096875,"end":12951.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12994.13534375,"end":12994.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12994.72596875,"end":13007.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13002.52221875,"end":13002.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13005.37409375,"end":13006.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13006.89284375,"end":13015.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13010.554718750001,"end":13010.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13012.79909375,"end":13012.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13014.18284375,"end":13014.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13015.988468750002,"end":13018.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13018.941593750002,"end":13019.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13019.582843750002,"end":13020.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13021.60784375,"end":13024.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13031.614718750003,"end":13035.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13035.22596875,"end":13039.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13041.90846875,"end":13043.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13044.70971875,"end":13045.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13045.890968750002,"end":13061.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13062.074093750001,"end":13101.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13102.118468750003,"end":13105.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13105.29096875,"end":13114.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13114.47096875,"end":13118.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13118.63909375,"end":13120.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13120.32659375,"end":13134.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13133.03346875,"end":13175.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13135.379093750002,"end":13136.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13148.676593750002,"end":13149.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13149.16596875,"end":13149.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13176.672218750002,"end":13178.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13179.726593750001,"end":13180.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13180.40159375,"end":13189.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13189.969718750002,"end":13193.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13193.969093750002,"end":13194.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13194.00284375,"end":13194.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13194.019718750002,"end":13194.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13194.67784375,"end":13257.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13257.503468750001,"end":13267.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13268.03346875,"end":13280.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13282.208468750003,"end":13283.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13283.828468750002,"end":13297.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13295.50596875,"end":13295.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13297.767218750003,"end":13308.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13308.128468750001,"end":13326.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13324.480343750001,"end":13325.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13326.539093750001,"end":13328.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13328.715968750003,"end":13329.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13329.37409375,"end":13329.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13329.407843750003,"end":13332.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13329.930968750003,"end":13333.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13333.52534375,"end":13336.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13347.649718750003,"end":13349.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13350.214718750001,"end":13350.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13350.383468750002,"end":13351.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13359.15846875,"end":13359.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13360.238468750002,"end":13360.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13360.96409375,"end":13369.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13369.587218750003,"end":13370.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13371.207218750002,"end":13374.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13375.425968750002,"end":13378.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13378.750343750002,"end":13385.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13378.919093750003,"end":13378.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13385.972843750002,"end":13400.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13400.046593750001,"end":13438.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13438.89284375,"end":13442.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13442.95971875,"end":13443.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13443.85409375,"end":13451.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13451.903468750003,"end":13452.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13452.949718750002,"end":13479.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13455.61596875,"end":13458.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13479.207218750002,"end":13479.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13479.24096875,"end":13479.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13479.375968750002,"end":13479.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13479.51096875,"end":13482.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13483.274093750002,"end":13514.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13494.985343750002,"end":13495.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13512.61971875,"end":13514.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13514.442218750002,"end":13514.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13514.57721875,"end":13514.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13514.62784375,"end":13514.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13514.695343750001,"end":13517.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13514.745968750001,"end":13521.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13521.765968750002,"end":13521.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13521.782843750003,"end":13522.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13522.305968750003,"end":13531.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13531.958468750003,"end":13536.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13532.24534375,"end":13532.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13534.97909375,"end":13536.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13536.548468750003,"end":13537.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13537.76346875,"end":13539.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13539.434093750002,"end":13539.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13539.94034375,"end":13544.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13544.243468750003,"end":13545.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13545.492218750001,"end":13547.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13548.411593750003,"end":13549.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13550.43659375,"end":13553.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13552.17471875,"end":13552.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13553.355968750002,"end":13553.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13553.659718750001,"end":13553.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13553.879093750002,"end":13553.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13553.946593750003,"end":13553.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13553.96346875,"end":13577.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13565.961593750002,"end":13566.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13566.02909375,"end":13566.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13566.164093750001,"end":13566.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13575.242843750002,"end":13582.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13579.731593750003,"end":13586.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13584.16971875,"end":13589.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13587.44346875,"end":13587.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13589.67096875,"end":13589.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13589.738468750002,"end":13590.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13590.24471875,"end":13590.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13590.88596875,"end":13593.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13594.075343750003,"end":13595.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13596.083468750003,"end":13600.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13600.89284375,"end":13605.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13605.567218750002,"end":13606.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13607.187218750001,"end":13610.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13610.984093750001,"end":13613.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13613.70096875,"end":13615.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13616.29971875,"end":13616.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13616.316593750002,"end":13623.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13623.89346875,"end":13663.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13659.567218750002,"end":13659.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13664.157218750002,"end":13671.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13671.93659375,"end":13675.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13675.93596875,"end":13676.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13677.47159375,"end":13700.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13681.859093750001,"end":13682.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13700.809718750003,"end":13702.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13702.63221875,"end":13705.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13705.602218750002,"end":13708.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13709.567843750003,"end":13711.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13711.96409375,"end":13711.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13711.980968750002,"end":13712.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13712.031593750002,"end":13716.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13718.089718750001,"end":13740.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13740.094718750002,"end":13746.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13742.44034375,"end":13746.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13746.878468750001,"end":13746.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13746.945968750002,"end":13746.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13746.97971875,"end":13746.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13746.996593750002,"end":13747.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13747.01346875,"end":13747.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13747.77284375,"end":13748.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13748.009093750003,"end":13749.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13748.684093750002,"end":13758.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13759.58534375,"end":13765.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13766.26784375,"end":13766.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13767.094718750002,"end":13773.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13773.794093750003,"end":13776.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13777.050968750002,"end":13778.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13778.55284375,"end":13782.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13783.36221875,"end":13786.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13786.93971875,"end":13788.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13789.032218750002,"end":13791.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13791.47909375,"end":13792.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13792.660343750002,"end":13794.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13794.28034375,"end":13795.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13795.579718750003,"end":13795.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13795.96784375,"end":13828.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13828.519718750002,"end":13835.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13835.691593750002,"end":13836.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13836.974093750003,"end":13837.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13838.340968750003,"end":13850.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13850.457218750002,"end":13866.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13866.555968750003,"end":13881.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13866.67409375,"end":13866.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13869.593468750001,"end":13869.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13871.16284375,"end":13871.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13878.030968750001,"end":13878.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13881.102218750002,"end":13888.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13888.03784375,"end":13888.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13890.737843750001,"end":13893.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13894.04534375,"end":13894.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13895.51346875,"end":13896.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13897.977218750002,"end":13898.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13899.25971875,"end":13902.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":19724.779718750004,"end":19725.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":19726.50096875,"end":19727.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":19727.834093750003,"end":19729.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19742.75159375,"end":19745.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":19745.434718750003,"end":19746.312218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":19753.568468750003,"end":19753.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19753.60221875,"end":19755.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19756.082843750002,"end":19767.287843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19767.94596875,"end":19770.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19770.747218750003,"end":19796.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19797.08909375,"end":19803.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":19804.05846875,"end":19804.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":19804.90221875,"end":19819.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":19819.617218749998,"end":19820.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19819.75221875,"end":19843.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19844.153468750003,"end":19846.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19846.41471875,"end":19852.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19852.57409375,"end":19864.116593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19864.504718750002,"end":19871.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19871.389718750004,"end":19876.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19877.093468749998,"end":19883.320343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19883.725343750004,"end":19906.725968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19906.75971875,"end":19911.366593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19911.61971875,"end":19912.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19912.176593750002,"end":19914.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19914.606593750003,"end":19923.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19923.95534375,"end":19935.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19937.100968749997,"end":19955.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19956.32159375,"end":19964.742218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19965.231593750003,"end":19965.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19966.429718749998,"end":19967.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19967.864093750002,"end":19973.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19973.93909375,"end":19984.047218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19984.317218750002,"end":19994.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19994.29034375,"end":20019.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20016.514718750004,"end":20016.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20019.653468750003,"end":20022.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20022.89346875,"end":20023.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20025.08721875,"end":20027.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20027.685968750004,"end":20029.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20038.232843750004,"end":20039.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20039.160968750002,"end":20042.249093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20042.58659375,"end":20044.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20047.37909375,"end":20047.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20048.00346875,"end":20048.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20049.927218750003,"end":20049.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20049.960968749998,"end":20050.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20051.007218749997,"end":20051.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20051.86784375,"end":20052.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20052.660968750002,"end":20057.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20057.99346875,"end":20081.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20059.61346875,"end":20059.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20059.748468750004,"end":20059.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20059.967843750004,"end":20060.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20060.507843749998,"end":20060.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20060.54159375,"end":20060.609093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20060.609093749998,"end":20060.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20060.64284375,"end":20060.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20060.693468750003,"end":20060.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20081.685968750004,"end":20099.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20085.162218750003,"end":20085.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20099.607218750003,"end":20133.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20134.15034375,"end":20144.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20145.35534375,"end":20162.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20162.65221875,"end":20168.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20169.233468750004,"end":20184.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20169.250343749998,"end":20169.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20169.90846875,"end":20171.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20171.39346875,"end":20171.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20176.911593750003,"end":20177.147843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20180.75909375,"end":20181.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20182.395968750003,"end":20182.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20184.23534375,"end":20225.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20186.108468750004,"end":20186.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20194.748468750004,"end":20196.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20215.80846875,"end":20215.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":20215.87596875,"end":20215.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20215.90971875,"end":20215.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":20215.943468750003,"end":20216.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20226.00096875,"end":20226.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20227.148468749998,"end":20229.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20229.40971875,"end":20250.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":20250.975968749997,"end":20251.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20251.060343750003,"end":20261.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20258.60346875,"end":20260.577843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20261.100968749997,"end":20284.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20274.719093749998,"end":20274.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20283.342218750004,"end":20283.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20285.41784375,"end":20290.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20290.092218750004,"end":20316.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20297.365343750003,"end":20297.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20297.97284375,"end":20298.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20315.99534375,"end":20322.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20318.459093750003,"end":20318.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20321.02409375,"end":20328.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20327.200343750003,"end":20327.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20327.58846875,"end":20327.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20328.95534375,"end":20336.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20329.512218750002,"end":20330.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20334.10221875,"end":20334.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20336.43096875,"end":20338.827218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20338.270343750002,"end":20343.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20339.350343750004,"end":20339.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20339.367218749998,"end":20339.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20340.78471875,"end":20340.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20340.801593750002,"end":20344.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20344.44659375,"end":20353.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20362.92471875,"end":20365.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20365.67534375,"end":20366.569718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20369.809718750003,"end":20369.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20369.87721875,"end":20371.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20374.264718750004,"end":20376.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20380.474718750003,"end":20381.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":20384.54159375,"end":20384.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20388.23721875,"end":20388.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20389.62096875,"end":20394.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20394.413468749997,"end":20414.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20414.68034375,"end":20418.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20419.86096875,"end":20422.898468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20423.25284375,"end":20427.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20427.35346875,"end":20427.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20427.65721875,"end":20430.576593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20430.96471875,"end":20445.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20446.03409375,"end":20458.319093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20459.280968749998,"end":20459.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20460.293468750002,"end":20461.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20462.26784375,"end":20482.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20483.27721875,"end":20495.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20496.10221875,"end":20496.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20497.30034375,"end":20506.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20506.46346875,"end":20507.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20507.982218750003,"end":20512.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20513.55096875,"end":20519.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20519.44034375,"end":20520.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20520.28409375,"end":20521.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20522.039093749998,"end":20526.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20526.679718749998,"end":20527.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20527.388468750003,"end":20551.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20532.53534375,"end":20532.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":20544.97221875,"end":20544.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20544.989093750002,"end":20545.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20549.71409375,"end":20550.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20551.232843750004,"end":20553.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20552.312843749998,"end":20553.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20553.37596875,"end":20553.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20553.426593750002,"end":20557.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20558.15159375,"end":20563.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20564.412218750003,"end":20568.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20568.59721875,"end":20572.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20573.710343749997,"end":20582.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20583.109718749998,"end":20583.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20583.98721875,"end":20585.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20586.11346875,"end":20613.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20614.14284375,"end":20623.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20621.905343750004,"end":20652.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20625.803468750004,"end":20626.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20629.262843750003,"end":20629.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20629.65096875,"end":20629.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20630.730968750002,"end":20630.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20630.764718750004,"end":20630.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20630.967218750004,"end":20630.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20631.52409375,"end":20631.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20631.591593750003,"end":20631.929093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20631.929093749997,"end":20631.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20633.22846875,"end":20634.139718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20652.668468750002,"end":20681.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20682.16596875,"end":20685.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20685.051593750002,"end":20691.312218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20690.08034375,"end":20690.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20691.36284375,"end":20692.155968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20692.155968749998,"end":20692.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20692.18971875,"end":20693.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20693.944718749997,"end":20693.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20695.210343749997,"end":20695.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20695.24409375,"end":20695.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20697.302843750003,"end":20697.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20698.43346875,"end":20699.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20700.86346875,"end":20701.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20701.79159375,"end":20702.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20702.584718750004,"end":20704.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20705.841593750003,"end":20705.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20705.89221875,"end":20705.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20705.90909375,"end":20705.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20713.62096875,"end":20716.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20716.793468750002,"end":20717.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20722.075343750003,"end":20725.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20723.52659375,"end":20723.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":20723.81346875,"end":20723.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20723.864093750002,"end":20723.880968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20726.05784375,"end":20726.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20726.935343750003,"end":20727.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20728.234718749998,"end":20729.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20729.078468749998,"end":20731.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20731.980968750002,"end":20732.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20733.11159375,"end":20734.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20735.00159375,"end":20735.811593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20735.94659375,"end":20738.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20739.051593750002,"end":20739.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20740.26659375,"end":20741.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20741.937218749998,"end":20743.388468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20743.86096875,"end":20744.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20744.80596875,"end":20745.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20745.919718750003,"end":20747.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20747.522843749997,"end":20748.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20748.94034375,"end":20753.412218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20754.272843749997,"end":20754.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20755.48784375,"end":20756.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20757.05721875,"end":20759.453468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20759.92596875,"end":20763.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20763.92534375,"end":20776.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20777.256593750004,"end":20782.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20783.31471875,"end":20786.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20786.537843750004,"end":20787.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20788.208468750003,"end":20793.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20794.232843750004,"end":20797.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20798.367218749998,"end":20804.577218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20804.897843749997,"end":20806.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20807.412218750003,"end":20809.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20810.027843750002,"end":20811.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20812.42409375,"end":20815.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20816.085968749998,"end":20818.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20818.85346875,"end":20824.000343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20824.65846875,"end":20833.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20834.192843750003,"end":20837.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20837.95596875,"end":20838.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20838.512843750003,"end":20838.546593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20838.546593749998,"end":20838.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20838.968468749998,"end":20861.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20854.560968750004,"end":20857.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20858.62784375,"end":20874.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20862.93096875,"end":20862.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20874.54096875,"end":20879.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20879.41784375,"end":20888.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20888.749718749998,"end":20891.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20891.500343749998,"end":20894.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20894.89221875,"end":20896.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20897.170343750004,"end":20897.609093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20897.87909375,"end":20932.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20932.371593750002,"end":20932.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20933.31659375,"end":20938.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20939.29034375,"end":20954.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20954.882843749998,"end":20956.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20956.30034375,"end":20958.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20958.544718750003,"end":20966.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20966.22284375,"end":20966.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20966.62784375,"end":20966.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20966.64471875,"end":20966.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20966.661593750003,"end":20966.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20966.965343750002,"end":20974.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20970.52596875,"end":20971.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20972.027843750002,"end":20972.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20973.37784375,"end":20973.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20974.255343750003,"end":20974.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20974.710968749998,"end":20980.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20979.739718750003,"end":20983.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20981.984093749998,"end":20991.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20992.04159375,"end":20995.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20995.770968750003,"end":21011.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":21004.36034375,"end":21005.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21011.414093749998,"end":21017.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":21011.98784375,"end":21012.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":21017.725343750004,"end":21017.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21017.96159375,"end":21022.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":21018.012218750002,"end":21018.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21018.029093750003,"end":21018.889718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21020.273468749998,"end":21022.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21023.294093750003,"end":21025.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21027.411593750003,"end":21041.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21042.717218750004,"end":21046.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21047.07096875,"end":21052.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21052.45409375,"end":21053.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21053.65221875,"end":21055.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21072.21471875,"end":21073.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21073.935968750004,"end":21073.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":21073.98659375,"end":21074.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21074.340968750003,"end":21074.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":21074.982218750003,"end":21075.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21093.966593750003,"end":21095.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21097.51034375,"end":21100.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21113.187218749998,"end":21114.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21115.31346875,"end":21116.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21116.359718749998,"end":21117.929093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21118.418468750002,"end":21138.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21138.02721875,"end":21140.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21140.86221875,"end":21143.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":21143.41034375,"end":21143.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21143.427218750003,"end":21143.444093750004}],"whisperx":[{"start":717.15,"end":719.428,"text":"與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較．"},{"start":1181.442,"end":1181.74,"text":"與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較。」進行報告。"},{"start":1511.459,"end":1511.683,"text":"與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較．"},{"start":1728.088,"end":1737.864,"text":"好,報告委員會我們現在開會,請組密報告出席人數。報告全體會,出席委員13人,已足法定人數。好,我們現在開始開會,進行報告事項,請宣讀上次會議之路。"},{"start":1738.68,"end":1764.496,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議一事錄時間113年10月23日星期三9時至11時50分地點紅紅一連一會議室出席委員林黛華委員等14人列席委員洪孟凱委員等21人列席人員經濟部常次連錦章環境部政次斯文珍財政部官務署副署長蘇淑珍及其各單位相關人員主席邱昭及委員志偉"},{"start":1765.316,"end":1783.327,"text":"報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事務決定確定．二、邀請經濟部首長、環境部首長就我國碳費徵收機制對產業衝擊之影響評估及政府協助企業因應支配套措施進行報告．並備質詢。三、邀請經濟部首長"},{"start":1784.967,"end":1812,"text":"環境部首長、財政部首長就我國碳邊境調整機制 的推動規劃．進行報告．並備質詢。報告四、向合併巡查、經濟部長賜連錦章及環境部政次施文貞、報告後委員林戴化等18人提出質詢．均由經濟部連長賜及環境部施政次及相關人員即席答覆。決定一、登記發言委員處不在場、走在區域進行發言完畢．訊答結束。二、委員陳昌明所提書面質詢、列入紀錄、刊登公報"},{"start":1812.8,"end":1823.924,"text":"三、書面執行和會籍答覆部分請相關單元一周內以書面答覆並複製本會。散會宣讀完畢。好,在場沒有違約,我們依次入政不疏離。我們繼續進行報告事項,請一併宣讀。"},{"start":1825.782,"end":1845.824,"text":"二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較，進行報告，並備質詢。三、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事總處"},{"start":1849.792,"end":1859.427,"text":"少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家作法之比較．我國參裁改制之可能行性．進行報告．並備質詢宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1862.742,"end":1890.116,"text":"在國會的留主委報告之前我很快的介紹進行列席的各部會的官員國家發展委員會留進行主委、行政院國發基金實名三職祕、衛生福利部及家庭署、社家署周道軍代理署長、教育部由張料外兼次長代表出席還有國民及學院教育署馮護元署長"},{"start":1892.107,"end":1902.302,"text":"勞動部部份由勞動力發展署黃玲玉副署長代表出席那行政院人事行政總處由李秉舟副人事長代表出席以上"},{"start":1904.352,"end":1933.832,"text":"那現在開始進行報告本日報告我們排定是我國少子女化現況跟對策的計畫成效繼我國跟亞洲其他國家鄰國的留才攬才政策的競爭力的比較這是第一案第二我國少子女化對策主管單位跟主要國家的做法做相關的比較還有我國未來該參採改制的可行性這兩個案特別請劉主委做報告"},{"start":1935.253,"end":1937.516,"text":"現在請國家發展委員會 主任委員報告"},{"start":1950.682,"end":1972.223,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、大家早今天很榮幸應邀到貴會針對我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效暨我國與鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較以及我國少子女化對策單位"},{"start":1972.944,"end":1984.972,"text":"以及與主要國家作法之比較,即我國採行改制之可行性等案進行備詢．以報告。」那敬請各位委員不吝執政。"},{"start":1986.632,"end":2003.677,"text":"我國我以幾個大的部分來做一個簡易的報告第一個是我國人口的變遷的趨勢那這幾年因為人口有了很大的結構化的改變各國都遇到類似的問題那2024年聯合國的報告全球已經有四分之一"},{"start":2004.554,"end":2017.162,"text":"的國家或地區面臨到人口的負成長,包括我國、日本、韓國、中國、泰國等鄰近國家也都面臨人口的負成長的情形。那我國人口數將會從預估本會的預估是從2024年"},{"start":2020.444,"end":2024.348,"text":"的2340萬人將會減至到2027年的1497萬人,那將會減少844萬人,其中0到14歲的幼兒人口數預計會減少171萬。15到64歲的青壯年,也就是我們最重要的工作人口年齡層,會減少920萬。"},{"start":2041.966,"end":2068.822,"text":"那這將會造成未來在工作與稅收都會有很大的影響65歲上的老人則會增加248萬也就是被必須被照顧的人會增加可以照顧的人減少那人口高齡化已經變成一個國家面臨的很重大的一個課題我想已經連續兩任總統都提出來這是國安危機那2024年全球已經有40個國家和地區邁入了高齡化社會"},{"start":2070.884,"end":2072.653,"text":"包括日本、德國、法國等"},{"start":2074.217,"end":2099.658,"text":"也將明年加入高齡化社會的行業。65歲以上的老人佔比將會超過20%,在2027年甚至會增加到46.5%。」那針對這個情形,我們現在有什麼樣的政策?第一個我們的做法是參考了國際的做法,然後以日本作為比較主要的仿效。然後由政務委員協調我國少子化的人口因應對策。"},{"start":2100.879,"end":2124.784,"text":"那這個對策呢其實幾個參考的做法那日本於2007年在內閣設置了少子化的這個擔當大臣那由這個擔當大臣來負責少子化所有的相關工作那跟措施那韓國在2006年則成立了第一生育與高齡社會委員會透過跨部會的討論"},{"start":2125.904,"end":2147.682,"text":"來解決少子化與高齡化的相關議題,那因為日本的執行成效顯然比較好,所以我國參考的是日本少子化單單大成的機制,由行政院指派中委員進行跨部會的協調,那目前本屆政府是由陳時中政委"},{"start":2148.642,"end":2170.209,"text":"來召集各部會包括教育部、衛福部、勞動部、國安會等單位來進行這樣的一個少子化的議題的相關的政策的呼應的對應。目前整個人口政策的分工我們在報告書上製作了一個表格大概我們目前有五大政策第一個是全方位的支持國人生養"},{"start":2171.149,"end":2191.773,"text":"第一個是擴大平價優質的育兒服務也就是我們希望做到0到6歲國家一起養那這裡面有也提供了高育兒的這個醫療照顧的措施也有強化幼兒友善職場分別由教育部、衛福部、內政部、勞動部來負責那相關的法令也有我國少子"},{"start":2192.633,"end":2215.429,"text":"少子女化的對策與計畫。」那這個是從2018年整個計畫是一個中長期計畫2018年一直到2025年到明年是一個段落那另外我們在質量並進充裕人才部分我們也利用提高勞動生產力的方式透過數位化的方式去降低勞動力的需求提升企業的競爭力這個部分來講"},{"start":2217.771,"end":2245.067,"text":"只要有經過比較好的工業4.0的導入大部分的企業可以減少50%的勞動力需求那這個對勞動未來的人口政策是很大的幫助那另外我們也積極的擴大勞動參與率把提高在中高齡的就業以及婦女重返職場作為我們主要的目標那同時也強化這個新世代的人才所需要的教育方法那這個部分由經濟部、速發部、勞動部、教育部等來負責"},{"start":2247.248,"end":2271.147,"text":"相關的法令有中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法。依據這個法,我們也訂定了中高齡及高齡就業者促進計畫,那是2023年到2025年。此時也同時訂定了婦女在就業計畫,鼓勵婦女重返職場。另外,我們也投資了青年就業方案,同時現在正在研議的是壯士代措施與規劃。"},{"start":2275.35,"end":2303.112,"text":"那同時我們也帶動了台灣AI行動計畫希望能夠帶動這樣的事情也同時本會在今年也完成了國家認財競爭力要生方案2024年到2027年的中長年計畫所以這幾個計畫都會支持以上這些工作那同時我們擴大隨著老年化的來臨我們擴大照顧量能持續去協助照顧量能那這個量能除了我們有長照的"},{"start":2303.852,"end":2321.379,"text":"的制度的再進化到3.0然後呢我們建立20小時重度失能者的支持以外我們同時也導入智慧科技的部分來協助所以這個部分也會在我們AI計畫裡面我想未來在機器人上面的投資在這方面很重要所以我們也從此有長照長期照顧10年計畫2017年到2026年計畫"},{"start":2324.48,"end":2329.801,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2354.328,"end":2365.837,"text":"那這幾個政策都有負責的部會在進行那接下來報告我們現行的留才攬才政策因為留才攬才政策是本會負責的我們跟亞鄰國家的比較那我們將進行一個說明"},{"start":2369.5,"end":2384.767,"text":"我們現在的政策裡面呢第一個在我們本會負責的是中高階人才所以我們以提升勞動生產力為主訴求來降低對市場的需求的壓力那我們以國科會跟這個速發部共同在將會推動一個"},{"start":2386.668,"end":2388.569,"text":"臺灣AI行動計畫,我們希望透過這樣的計畫降低整個提升整個產業職場環境的工作效率,降低對人力的需求。第二個部分,我們擴大勞動力的來源,我們會強化人才培育的管道,"},{"start":2402.794,"end":2419.709,"text":"然後滿足我國的產業需求。目前我們有兩個方式在進行,一個是從學校教育裡面在既有的科系裡面強化以外,我們也提供了非數位相關科系的人去透過STAND的方案來改善他自己的技能"},{"start":2420.289,"end":2443.63,"text":"我們預計一年可以提升這個部分的人力可以達到10萬那我們目前累積到現在2028年累積到現在也有了45萬人次的Stand-in才那我們也鼓勵了10萬的國際生來臺就學到目前為止那我們希望擴大僑外生的方案來增加那目前已經達到每年2萬以上了那這些我們目前留才率已經達到了48.1%"},{"start":2446.454,"end":2474.495,"text":"所以將來我們希望把它拉到六成更高也因此我們也協調了這個教育部我們將來在明年開始我們在每個學校設立就業輔導員來協助這些僑外生在臺工作增加我們臺灣本地所需要的勞動力另外我們也擴大勞動力來源增強中高齡所謂的壯士代的人力需求這個勞動部已經訂定了中高齡及高齡就業者的出行計畫目前也在實施中也甚至有中高齡者的這個"},{"start":2476.056,"end":2501.013,"text":"就是壯士戴責的這個就業輔導機制也有。另外,我們希望擴大我們的婦女勞參率,因為我們的中高齡就業率跟婦女攬差率相較韓國、日本等國,我們是相較低的。我認為這裡可以有機會促進10萬名以上的就業機會提供就業人才進來。海外人才的部分,最近我們也參考了日本、新加坡、英國等國的攬才"},{"start":2501.994,"end":2526.011,"text":"策略,我們訂定了一個國家人才競爭力躍升方案裡面,去完善在國際攬才跟建構留才的一個機制。國際攬才的部分,我們擴大攬才管道,我們除了跟教育部的合作橋外生之外,我們還有新型專班,然後我們同時有國外直接攬才等方案,同時我們正在"},{"start":2526.591,"end":2541.954,"text":"做法規的鬆綁希望透過鬆綁的方式讓大家更容易進來而且留下來那這個法案我們預計在下個禮拜會送出做這個公開預覽然後我們希望12月有機會送到"},{"start":2543.561,"end":2564.922,"text":"大院來進行討論。另外我們建構完善的留才生態系,主要是我們做了一個調查去了解這些外國人來這邊怎麼樣才能夠留下來。我們做了一個完整的調查,我們透過我們調查的結果,目前正在改善整體的生態環境,包括食衣住行等方面,我們都在"},{"start":2566.844,"end":2595.499,"text":"進行各種工作希望能夠協助。」那關於跟鄰國的這個各國的做法呢我們有一張表已經附在我們的報告書裡面那裡面詳述了日本、新加坡、英國等主要的做法大家對於高級人才、頂尖人才、數位牧民等方面那數位牧民是我們今年比較大的新的做措施因為全球有3千5百萬那我們現在已經跟兩個縣市合作將會在11月我們就會有記者會公告然後呢進行"},{"start":2596.759,"end":2622.85,"text":"進行推廣,然後我們也開始會跟日本進行一個交流合作,大家互相這個交換意見跟經驗,然後呢締結聯盟,然後讓我們的數位人才機會比較大,那以目前最近的有一篇報導裡面,我們臺灣的數位人才是亞洲這個數位牧民的環境裡面是亞洲排名第一,所以我們希望利用那個優勢趕緊把這樣的人拉進來,然後也透過這樣的人才去"},{"start":2624.37,"end":2648.871,"text":"提供我們未來數位創新的基礎。」那第三最後是我們持續會觀察人口相關的變化那為了積極應變這樣的變化其實我們在院會年尾我們開了非常多次的會議希望能夠盡量在少子化方面我們能夠守住現在的狀況再來談進化所以我們會積極擴大人工生殖這個的補助對象延長育嬰留職"},{"start":2649.811,"end":2660.623,"text":"以及挺心津貼在勞動市場面我們擴大中高齡及婦女的勞參然後吸引全球的優秀人才持續厚植產業人才的培育在經濟產業方面積極應用AI等方面讓產業能夠快速升級"},{"start":2664.967,"end":2686.647,"text":"然後也降低對產業能力的需求在財政方面也因應未來納稅人口將會減少社會福利支出增加的部分我們也在商討如何去改善這個部分另外在社會環境部分我們也開始研議未來超高齡社會所需要的醫療與照顧能量我們透過智慧化的方式來改善甚至我們希望能夠透過預防醫療的方式"},{"start":2691.631,"end":2708.758,"text":"總統推出《健康台灣》的政策,我們希望在醫療前能夠讓大家有更好的身體。這些方式我們現在都會每季或每半年進行檢討,尤其是滾動式。人口的部分我們目前是每一季由陳時中委員在帶動進行檢討。所以"},{"start":2712.6,"end":2738.6,"text":"面對這樣的關鍵時刻,我們也也謝謝立法院那麼關心這件事情,我們也希望大家一起可以共同來努力,讓我們的經濟跟社會的韌性變得更好。那我們也希望在立院的協助之下,我們可以讓各項相關的政策能夠能夠推展比較順利,那相關的預算也能夠比較得到相當的支持。那這樣的話呢,我們兩院聯手呢,可以這個衝浴產業的發展所需要的人才"},{"start":2739.561,"end":2743.808,"text":"與人力提升我國的競爭力,讓我們的社會未來更穩定更健康。」"},{"start":2749.73,"end":2773.362,"text":"所以我請回座因為國化會議是屬於這個政策的規劃協調管考機關那目前是由陳時中啊政委擔任召集各部會的協調那主政單位還是併集在各部會包括教育部、衛福部主要是教育部、衛福部跟勞動部今天我請衛福部來周首長來進行報告重點報告"},{"start":2789.66,"end":2805.929,"text":"教委以及各位委員大家早安以及委員會各位女士先生今天陳委員會邀請衛福部緊就再辦理我國少子女化對策計畫的部分其中有關涉及到與衛福部比較相關的幼兒照顧"},{"start":2807.53,"end":2832.525,"text":"及兒童健康權益保護以及友善生養部分相關的作為,做一個簡單的口頭報告。首先,在0到2歲幼兒全面照顧的部分,衛福部這邊在112年開始,對於不管是生育津貼或者是托育補助的部分,我們大家都已經取消了牌幅的限制,只要是有生養子女的,都可以領取"},{"start":2832.705,"end":2858.363,"text":"相關的津貼或者是補助那其中在預約津貼的部分也在112年它的這個津貼的費用從2500每個月2500塊調到5000塊那在托育補助的部分1000在113年今年開始其中它如果是送到公共化的公托的部分那每個月的補助金從每個月5500塊調到7000塊那如果送到私營的總公托那則是從每個月8500塊調到13000塊"},{"start":2860.985,"end":2864.449,"text":"與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會首長就"},{"start":2878.564,"end":2904.665,"text":"托育照顧的比例從1比5要能夠調降到1比4能夠去調升它的比例那對於這類機構的人員跟薪資以及各類輔導人的薪資我們也都會激動的來做調控來注意他們的薪資以及市場狀況來維持整個照顧的服務的水平那另外在兒童健康以及全醫、兒童健康跟醫療照護的部分那我們也推動了有關優化兒童醫療照護的計畫那"},{"start":2908.428,"end":2933.004,"text":"衛福部一共補助了八處核心醫院來成立兒童重難罕症的焦點團體有補助三個重症的轉運專業團隊以及一處困難診斷疾病的平臺另外,還有九家醫院來設置周產期母嬰醫療中心來專責協助有關高危險妊娠以及新生兒家戶照護的工作"},{"start":2933.584,"end":2959.479,"text":"那另外在112年11月開始我們也將全面將所有新生的幼兒能夠三歲以下的幼兒全部納入三歲以下幼兒的專責醫師制度那國內現在一共有1276家的院所2837位的相關的醫師來投入這樣的一個對新生兒以及幼兒的服務那另外在社會安全網線上的求助平臺我們也補助了"},{"start":2961.38,"end":2982.994,"text":"國內12家醫院來辦理兒少保護的醫療整合中心來防止兒少的虐待以及疏忽。另外在擴充發展遲緩兒童的社區療癒服務提早早療的療癒補助還有輔助貧困弱勢家庭的自立協助兒童少年未來教育發展帳戶等等開戶人數也達到43萬人開戶率達到這些兒童的65%"},{"start":2988.517,"end":3012.675,"text":"也就是差不多接近三分之二那在友善生養措施的部分衛福從110年7月起就已經開始擴大不孕症治療的補助那這個到一般的不孕夫妻那已經到目前為止已經成功產下2.13萬名新生兒那也補助孕婦的產檢從原來的10次提高到14次"},{"start":3015.204,"end":3034.686,"text":"有一次提高到三次,而且也新增了妊娠糖尿病以及貧血的檢驗,讓母親在懷孕的過程,她的健康能夠有更高的保障。那縱觀各國在對於提車生育率的對策,基本上大概都是朝向從多元方式來著手,也大概不"},{"start":3035.046,"end":3059.108,"text":"不完全是透過單一的部會或者單一的政策那衛福在這個角色上面我們除了提供了包括現金的給付那我們還是會從這個比較良好的醫療照顧體系我們這邊會持續的來做相關的努力那也會持續的跟相關所有在有關少子化計畫裡面相關的部會我們一起就整體的政策一起配合來推動相關的"},{"start":3060.149,"end":3087.44,"text":"各種各樣的育兒措施能夠給育兒的家庭最大的支持以及奧元讓我們年輕一代的父母親能夠趕婚、怨生以及樂養那衛福部、城、大院以及各位委員會的指導與監督在這邊謹誌謝誠並請各位委員持續給予衛福部相關的監督與指導以上報告謝謝好謝謝衛福部周市長的報告來請回座下一位請教育部由張妙慧金次長做報告"},{"start":3092.837,"end":3111.813,"text":"主席、各位委員先生大家好今天我們來應邀列席貴委員會那我們針對我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效部分這個部分我們來進行報告那麼以下就先從二至六歲幼兒教育及照顧之推動情形"},{"start":3112.493,"end":3131.562,"text":"提出重點說明,也請各位指教。首先是在兩歲到六歲的幼兒教育及照顧之辦理情形方面,透過五項作為來建立平價、優質跟普及的托育服務體系。目前五項作為分別是一、擴大公共化及准公共托育能量"},{"start":3132.182,"end":3147.469,"text":"那麼從106年到113年起我們累計增加了3699班那麼在公共化的方面那麼同時結合準公共機制符合一定條件的私立幼兒園合作那麼增加教家長的選擇評價就學場域的機會從在113年"},{"start":3154.013,"end":3173.364,"text":"現在已經有2039家私立幼兒園來參與那麼113年度合計公共化及準公共幼兒園一共提供超過50萬個評價就學名額那麼就來比較方面就是實行前我們已經增加了32.4萬個評價就學機會那麼第二個面向是在減輕家長的經濟負擔那麼分別對於就讀功力"},{"start":3180.007,"end":3202.258,"text":"非營利及準公共幼兒園者家長每月的繳費不超過三千元,就是所謂的公利一千、非營利兩千、準公幼三千、一二三的政策。那麼對於中低及低收入戶的家庭子女就許是完全免費。那麼對於未接受公共化及準公共教保服務者每月發給幼兒津貼"},{"start":3205.842,"end":3230.779,"text":"五千元,第一胎五千元,第二胎六千元,第三胎七千元,那麼在一百一十二年一月起也取消了育兒津貼的牌付,那麼第三個面向是完善托育時間,那麼除了托育的服務之外,從一百一十三年今年的一月起推動公立幼兒園平日課後延長照顧服務時間以及寒暑期的加托服務,那麼採定額繳費的方式辦理"},{"start":3231.079,"end":3254.362,"text":"不足的費用則由本部與地方政府共同編列經費予以協助目前已經超過9成的公立幼兒園已經開辦從今年的8月起在45處的公共化幼兒園示範臨時照顧服務第四個面向是優化調整私生比就是我們大院所關心的幼兒園希望能夠朝向1比12"},{"start":3254.923,"end":3257.784,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3284.893,"end":3306.345,"text":"幼兒園的園長、教師及教保員一年之區分為三個級距,每月基本薪資至少三萬三千兩百元起,並且一年之再提高,園方也應該要訂定調薪的機制,共同調升薪資待遇。」除了這五大面向之外,其實在測競作為方面,針對都會區及公共化供應量不足的地方"},{"start":3307.746,"end":3330.515,"text":"家長對於兩歲專班的就讀需求非常大,持續協助各地方政府來增設公共化幼兒園及兩歲專班,目前也跟內政部營建署合作,在社會住宅內提供空間設置公共化幼兒園,以加速都會區設置公共化幼兒園,以及增加兩歲專班的供應量,預計在今年起到115年,我們可以增設兩歲專班200班,"},{"start":3334.497,"end":3356.882,"text":"那麼最後呢,要感謝各位委員關心二、兩到六歲的幼兒教育照顧以及推動的情形跟成效那麼為了減輕家庭育兒負擔本部將持續配合少子女化計畫持續由上開育兒支持措施建立平價優質及普及的托育服務體系健全友善成長環境的政策精神以上報告,敬請各位委員指教,謝謝好,謝謝教育部長、廖文堅次長的報告"},{"start":3363.464,"end":3366.192,"text":"接著請勞動部、勞動部發展署、黃副署長報告重點"},{"start":3374.11,"end":3396.827,"text":"主席、委員各位先進大家好本部應邀列席進行報告上請各位指教本部配合衛福部推動少子女化對策以及國發會留才攬才政策採行了各項具體措施首先針對少子女化部分我們採行了滾動檢討育兒相關的制度現行在性別平等工作法裡面其實已經有一些產價"},{"start":3397.808,"end":3421.138,"text":"以及相關措施的規定,包括留職停薪,得以不低於30天的期間向僱主提出,但是為了建構更友善的職場環境,本部在今年採行了彈性育嬰留職停薪的試辦原則,以5天或7天的這個低門檻,育嬰留職停薪的彈性措施進行試辦,預計試辦到今年年底,我們希望透過這次的實作,能夠作為未來政策參考。」"},{"start":3422.378,"end":3441.526,"text":"第二是推動企業的設置普及乳式托兒設施除了提供企業相關的經費補助,我們也在今年8月修法提高了托兒設施最高的補助額度來到500萬此外,今年也補助了普及乳式、托兒設施以及措施576家,補助金額2900餘萬"},{"start":3444.947,"end":3458.474,"text":"第三是強化育嬰留職停薪期間的經濟支持從110年7月起我們另外以公務預算的方式加給了兩成的薪資補助目前加碼來到八成薪截至今年8月底已經補助了近29萬4千餘人合幅金額108億"},{"start":3462.881,"end":3484.915,"text":"另外,在留才攬才方面,我們也採行了三項措施一、針對延攬外國專業人才本部許可外國專業人才從事專門及技術性工作,到目前已經有5萬餘人此外,經會商經濟部、經管會衛福部等以修法擴大製造業、金融業、政企會等相關的工作範圍並且新增了外國人也可以從事設公司"},{"start":3486.055,"end":3506.753,"text":"第二、加強留用畢業僑外生留台工作僑外生取得副學士以上經過評點制可以留台那我們在今年的6月14號進一步的再公告增加了實習跟獎助學金都可以調高他的配分此外也刪除了僑外生留台的人數上限目前留台的人數已經來到了一萬六千餘人"},{"start":3507.557,"end":3526.879,"text":"未來要進一步的規劃放寬畢業僑外生可以申請個人式工作許可。」第三是擴大禁用中階技術人力目前已經有開放6年以上的資深移工以及僑外生可以符合一定的技術條件、薪資水準就可以從事製造業、營造業等中階技術工作目前已核准了3萬5千餘人"},{"start":3528.44,"end":3532.024,"text":"為了進一步配合擴大留用僑外生,我們8月份再開放僑外生可以從事旅宿業。此外,也在會商各相關機關以及因應產業需要"},{"start":3541.274,"end":3569.55,"text":"我們進一步的將在開放畢業僑外生可以從事醫院照護所、艙處理貨、貨車駕駛、隨車助理、公路及市區客運駕駛以及管理安全人員等等這六類的中階技術工作,我們也預計在今年年底會完成修法。未來也將持續配合國發會留才攬才的相關措施以及攬才專法的修正,共同擴大境外中階技術人力的延攬。以上報告,敬請不吝指教。謝謝。"},{"start":3573.574,"end":3591.829,"text":"謝謝勞動部的報告我們先來確定意思錄請問在場各位同仁上次會議意思錄有錯誤沒有的話我們就意思錄確定另外行政院人事總處所提書片報告請委員進行參與並刊登公報那"},{"start":3594.401,"end":3616.296,"text":"今天的報告雖然有兩岸,我們何必進行詢問?委員事併前,主席原理做以下宣告,每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘,必要延長2分鐘,非本會委員4分鐘,我們在上午10點30分即時發言登記,為了讓會議進行能夠順利,兼顧每位委員發言時間的公平性,避免影響消費委員發言的權益"},{"start":3618.797,"end":3633.682,"text":"請質詢的委員於經時間結束之後停止發言。若繼續發言的話,那主席會制止。還請各位同仁能夠配合。感謝。」好,來,第一位質詢請林黛樺委員。有請劉組委。國會劉組委。"},{"start":3649.226,"end":3674.64,"text":"林委員早好 各位這個本席認為整個涉及11個政府部門所提出的少子化政策就是兩個字叫無感所以導致了少子化的狀況是日趨嚴重你們從不提本國在全世界少子化的排名我們現在倒數第二名跟韓國倒數第一名只差0.01"},{"start":3677.324,"end":3704.295,"text":"所以我本席認為所有的各部會當中誰講得最好誰爬出得最清楚叫做人事行政總處人事行政總處的最後一段少子化成因交織複雜涉及價值觀、經濟壓力如何兼顧育兒及就業育兒等面向其關鍵在於這句話是重點啦其關鍵在於所提對策能否切合"},{"start":3705.295,"end":3724.282,"text":"並有效改善,並非單一部會能夠處理。」你們所有其他各部會都講說只強調一點這不是單一部會可以處理的所以都大概我就做我的那成效如何我不管所以現在的少子化政策叫什麼既沒有契合問題也沒有改善問題"},{"start":3725.322,"end":3743.788,"text":"好 主委先回答本席三個問題第一個衛福部106年成立少子化辦公室目前少子化辦公室有沒有運作第二個行政院下有沒有少子化辦公室第三個520之後我們少子化的對策開了幾次會回答"},{"start":3747.007,"end":3764.884,"text":"跟委員報告少子化辦公室已經移到行政院在運作那目前是有在運作那我們在公布人口報告的時候我們總共開了三次會議五二零之後嗎關我的報告公告前我要提升到行政院層次五二零之後"},{"start":3765.769,"end":3792.233,"text":"五二零之後我參與過三次針對這個報告但五二零之前因為我沒有參與到五二零之後本席所掌握的是十二次報告十二次您在爬樹下本席所掌握的陳時中就十月一號開過一次會五二零之後好那所以現在行政院下有少子化辦公室這個實質的這個辦公室嗎那招集人叫做政委嗎"},{"start":3793.394,"end":3805.485,"text":"目前是所以有少子化辦公室那這個你來那這個本席認為嚴重的原因在低薪是導致少子化的問題何部長講到這個10月17號勞動部月薪3萬1以下是屬於低薪這也將影響到120萬的勞動力"},{"start":3814.773,"end":3832.45,"text":"那勞動力呢既然是逐漸下降勞動的供給我們供需勞動力的供給減少那薪資理論上是要增加的可是是沒有的所以各級企業面臨嚴重的勞動力短缺生產力當然有限那低薪我講的是實質所得"},{"start":3832.83,"end":3847.293,"text":"所得導致少子化的問題日趨嚴重所以年輕人口的減少導致企業招聘困難特別是在勞動密集型的產業形成企業競爭力的下降所以產業與國力就是陷入惡性循環"},{"start":3848.274,"end":3864.475,"text":"所以在整個尤其各部會講的時候呢你們都不講生育這件事情了你們都不講你們只講留才攬才花了很大的以及高齡人口那這個如何生育如何支持生育這件事情是沒講的好"},{"start":3866.097,"end":3870.08,"text":"少子化辦公室在行政院下我認為他也孤掌難鳴從衛福部的少子化到你現在行政院的少子化辦公室卓院長在這個院會當中他也直接講少子案是國安議題"},{"start":3884.233,"end":3907.247,"text":"國安議題啊所以你們在行政院下的這樣開會的頻率跟主責單位那政委不在我們立法院報告的啊不接受民意的那個啊的提點的啊那他怎麼會是個國安議題呢你們把國安把你們是末世少子漢是國安議題你把少子漢這樣國安議題是把國安議題當作塑膠"},{"start":3908.528,"end":3924.516,"text":"所以少子化的議題那我請問你國發會跟陳時中是什麼關係?國發會這個單位跟少子化辦公室的召集人陳時中政委是什麼關係?你們做什麼事?我們是在他的整個規劃方案裡面我們負責國外的攬才"},{"start":3928.177,"end":3937.025,"text":"國外的攬才 國外的攬才這件事情所以你看今天召委很用心希望對於少子化這樣國安題提出來結果請了國發會做主責你只負責攬才"},{"start":3941.963,"end":3947.626,"text":"所以那到底我們要對整個行政院國安體我們怎麼質詢呢?我跟委員報告是這樣喔我上來之後其實我們也主動的做了這個人才競爭力的白皮書那我們也把各部位把各部位把人才需要全部整合我先不講競爭力我先要增加人數對人數我們現在就是跟勞動部也一起合作對你就留才攬才嘛不只不只我們現在也在所以你講生育是嗎?"},{"start":3967.698,"end":3971.96,"text":"民眾無感的政策導致問題擴大。第一個少子化政策偏重於幼兒的照護跟關懷第二個缺乏勞動政策支持與租稅優惠"},{"start":3984.187,"end":3998.204,"text":"第三、小孩不會因為照顧條件變好就自己蹦出來所以本席認為你所有的政策如果這是政委的政委在主導本席認為在婚配年輕化以及父母生育的誘因一定要提高這兩個這兩個才是正解"},{"start":4000.927,"end":4029.699,"text":"這兩個你沒下去我們現在都是30歲以後32歲以後女性的生育的黃金其實有極限的所以我們婚配的年輕化如何去獎勵我們父母的生育的誘因怎麼提高這個是要加強的好我們就看新加坡既然你們講到新加坡我覺得你們也沒講到重點第一個這在本期的總諮詢也提過在6月18號新加坡我認為這幾個特色在生育的部分21到35歲單身女性忍動卵子"},{"start":4030.379,"end":4055.905,"text":"第二、生育環境母親的有薪假應該在延伸16週附近的有薪陪產假4週好再來所得稅的減免因為我們你們也提說要這個婦女職業婦女啊所以你的第一胎要減少母親的總收入的15%第二胎你要減少他的總收入減免他的免稅額總收入20%第三胎以後減免他25%甚至可以到60%"},{"start":4058.826,"end":4060.927,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4081.636,"end":4104.339,"text":"百分之七五的經濟我們就補下去啦所以你們沒有針對生育的部分去做誘因啊好我具體建議第一個院會正式你要既然您是國發會統籌各部會本席要求您在院會要正式提案行政院底下成立專責的少子化委員會辦公室提升到委員會至於這個委員會要不要比照你國發委員會編制內的"},{"start":4105.64,"end":4132.051,"text":"大陸委員會也好,你要成為公共工程委員會也好,或者你行政院以下等同性平委員,至少幕僚機構,召集人就是院長啊,幕僚的主責可以是陳時中啊,你至少有一個委員會正式的運作,怎麼會是5月5、20之後到現在陳時中才開一次會,10月1號才開一次會,這哪是國安議題啊。第二個,盡快嚴厲少子化,白皮書"},{"start":4133.547,"end":4158.875,"text":"好,這白皮書要針對幾點?針對孕婦所需心理的諮商、生理的理療、產前的準備價甚至生育所得稅的減免鼓勵生育啊第二個,比照新加坡評估婦女生育所得稅的減免優惠第三,青年購屋如果提高青年早婚的意願青年住宅結合少子化的政策一、生育子女數給不同的優惠完全不需要抽籤"},{"start":4159.835,"end":4188.641,"text":"只要你願意生你青年也早一點結婚我們不需要抽籤讓青年能夠安穩定居第四個用國家的力量宣揚家庭的價值不分性向不分性別宣揚家庭的價值結合少子化的政策推動家庭的這個家庭日不是節日那這個主委你怎麼看呢?好我簡單回應委員的建議我會找我會直接找院長報告好非常好我會給你一個答覆好謝謝"},{"start":4190.134,"end":4213.913,"text":"好,謝謝領導委員。主委請回座。消費資源請邱益穎委員。好,謝謝主席。我先請一下國發會。請國發會劉主委。"},{"start":4223.605,"end":4242.178,"text":"今天我們要來討論這個少子化的議題我想這個國發會你們最新發布的這個人口推估到2070年的時候我們的生產者跟老年人口的比例將到達1對不對這個是你們最新的一個版本你不要告訴我你沒看過是的沒錯好"},{"start":4244.613,"end":4256.64,"text":"來那也就是說其實在臺灣的這個少子高齡化的趨勢其實是在快速的擴大當中所以如果這樣子照你們現在的推估到2070年臺灣將會減少大概903萬的人口應該是920萬我們的數字你們的數字是920萬7年"},{"start":4267.125,"end":4268.706,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4280.56,"end":4302.478,"text":"但是西歐跟美國、澳洲等等這些國家其實他們的少子化的趨勢是比較和緩請教一下你們有沒有去做過研究這些國家為什麼他們有辦法維持這樣子的生育率雖然生育率是不像台灣、韓國、新加坡、日本的生育率是這麼低"},{"start":4303.519,"end":4306.401,"text":"他們有沒有什麼值得我們借鏡的地方?你們有沒有去做過研究?"},{"start":4334.12,"end":4356.957,"text":"在歐美婚生子女是比較少一點很多人不見得要結婚就生小孩了我先談到錢的部分您剛講到這個錢的部分我們的內閣其實對於少子高齡化有一些新的政策比如說我們的育兒津貼0到6歲國家一起養2.0兩歲的專班"},{"start":4361.36,"end":4388.639,"text":"讓你看一下這個未來的預算增加不只是0到6歲國家跟你一起養青少年的這個預算增加了44億從教育部、衛福部到勞動部等等這個留職、停薪育兒的津貼都增加婦女的生育率我們也希望婦女的生育率能夠增加所以我們的人工生殖技術的補助等等"},{"start":4389.62,"end":4417.278,"text":"這一些錢就是您剛講的都要錢嘛政府用大量的補助增加的補助去給他們沒錯那我請教一下現在你的這個所謂的少子化對策計畫294億有沒有總預算沒有那您剛講的這些補助在哪裡錢從哪裡來需要預算通過而且不只這個金額我們未來財霸法包括依照現在的"},{"start":4418.779,"end":4434.504,"text":"這個在野黨的版本中央會少掉4000億喔只剩下3600億的錢那我們剛剛講的這些補助會很難解決沒有的話那你的少子化問題就會越來越嚴重嘛你最基本的錢的補助"},{"start":4436.124,"end":4455.614,"text":"前不能通過的時候沒有預算沒有錢你後面的那些你講的那個風氣啦文化啊那個其實跟台灣還有很大段的距離但是眼前我們可以提高生育率我們可以提高對於孩子們的養育津貼的這個部分沒有錢啊那怎麼做"},{"start":4457.345,"end":4479.953,"text":"所以少子化這個議題它跟我們的總預算也是牽扯非常的廣泛那剛剛其實也有委員一直在講說我們不談提高生育率我們一直講留才攬才其實主委我要接下來跟您請教這個部分我是不是也請一下這個勞動部跟教育部好不好"},{"start":4480.693,"end":4487.618,"text":"呃、教育部請張教次長、勞動部首長、勞動部我們一直在談留才攬才這件事啊"},{"start":4490.647,"end":4516.653,"text":"剛剛這個勞動部也特別報導從8月份開始僑生可以從事旅宿業的服務工作 對不對未來我們還要增加醫院的照護輔助人力倉儲人力貨車駕駛助理以及這個客運駕駛的安全管理人力的問題我們要利用這些所謂的僑外生來增加我們的人力來補足我們的人力缺口是不是這樣這是勞動部的政策嘛"},{"start":4518.356,"end":4525.286,"text":"來接下來我要請教一下到底這一些橋外生他是學生是喬生還是學工"},{"start":4526.519,"end":4554.493,"text":"我為什麼會這樣問?你看明年這個教育部應該有掌握明年有三萬個私立的高中職的學生裡面每四個就有一個是所謂的僑生僑生要到台灣來上課他必須通過基礎的華語文測驗對不對?次長那個張亮次長你知道嗎?但是你知道現在這一些僑生"},{"start":4557.204,"end":4583.509,"text":"來這個是監察院最新的報告我們剛剛講僑委會從103年開始擴大所謂的產學攜手合作僑生專班3加4112年的招生人數是4069人到目前為止有畢業了三屆次長您看一下這個畢業率這一些學生來念書之後他的畢業率到最新的這屆是25.51"},{"start":4587.318,"end":4605.24,"text":"就說這些學生來念書可是他念到一半以後他就退學了真正能夠念到畢業的只有25%真正留在台灣的4000多人裡面真正能夠留在台灣的也不過才幾百人這到底是什麼樣的問題"},{"start":4607.495,"end":4625.132,"text":"是教育的問題呢還是說你們當時招生的時候其實只是為了找一些學工來並不是真的要讓他們在這裡念書求取知識然後甚至多學一些技能來留下來我我"},{"start":4626.053,"end":4640.235,"text":"我去做一個調查,包括有一篇報導他說這些孩子們其實雖然來這裡念書但他們的中文能力其實跟我們的認知是有很大的落差的來,次長"},{"start":4641.119,"end":4667.715,"text":"跟委員報告其實橋委會也針對這個事情也來教育部這邊也來跟我們討論其實很重要的一個問題就是語言的適應的問題就是說他的那個語言能力所以他現在這個比較變通的辦法就是在將來他在海外設立基地都是希望說來台灣前他的那個語文能力能夠達到一定的程度可是市長他來台灣前不是已經有通過了基礎的語文測驗嗎就是A1就是自打到A1"},{"start":4668.695,"end":4697.79,"text":"所以A1是很低的level就是了那他如果是這樣他來台灣比如說來台灣上課的時候學校是不是要能夠因材施教比如說你的中文程度到什麼樣的程度我應該要讓你多一點或是應該怎麼樣去教導你那你的這些僑生他有可能是在職業學校跟他的技職有相關的中文的學習專有名詞的學習是不是也應該要多一點"},{"start":4698.75,"end":4719.517,"text":"還是說阿就像放牛板那樣親菜阿啦?我想委員你的建議非常好其實我們那個僑委會的那個委員長來拜訪的時候我們就提過這個他其實語言的適應方面還有這個生活適應的方面都會相關這部分我們會一起來檢討那希望將來的那個留在台灣適應的能力、語言的能力都能夠提高"},{"start":4720.457,"end":4745.417,"text":"這個其實會跟未來勞動部你要再開放各個不同的產業其實是有更正相關如果他在語言能力上面你比如說去做照護員他在語言能力的理解上是有很大的落差的話他根本沒辦法做好這個工作他當貨車的駕駛他連中文都看不懂中文字看不懂他要下高速公路要下哪一個路口要左轉右轉他都看不懂的話那你很難在這樣的一個行業裡頭去"},{"start":4746.792,"end":4766.958,"text":"去達到我們要的這個人力目標。」所以我想這個部分可能要請勞動部跟教育部甚至僑委會都要在多方的再去配合好嗎?好,謝謝好,謝謝邱盈盈委員請回座下位質詢請呂玉玲委員"},{"start":4777.755,"end":4780.256,"text":"謝謝主席請劉主委請國發會劉主委劉委員長主委本席過去針對這個少子化的問題有跟我們諸委國發會的諮詢的很多次那因為畢竟我們對這個整個這個"},{"start":4802.938,"end":4823.614,"text":"無法扭轉人口結構少子化的問題所以造成我們國家總體競爭力的下降有關在教育方面的話整個私校的退場會越來越多有關在勞動力方面的話就業人數越來越少也等於是說產業會有更多的缺工跟高齡化的問題"},{"start":4824.875,"end":4827.416,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4851.64,"end":4867.135,"text":"面臨的這個整個少子化的這個問題的因素是非常的複雜那尤其是我們看到了這個年輕人現在是越來越晚婚甚至不婚在這種情況之下也包括我們的物價房價都一直高漲包括的這個育兒津貼"},{"start":4870.418,"end":4871.539,"text":"與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較．暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較．"},{"start":4891.123,"end":4918.039,"text":"目前的確像委員講的我們的確有晚婚的現象跟不婚的現象現在是我們的調查事會年齡目前看起來是超過51%是不婚選擇不婚的確可是那個主委那個我們對這個人口推估的這報告在10月17號你們已經報告出來了那你報告出來的話因為我們是每兩年就做一次報告這個更新的是非常的高那但是這一次我們看到"},{"start":4919.56,"end":4940.657,"text":"這個數字出來的時候是比2022年還要不樂觀欸是不是因為你把國際的趨勢也納入了關係的確我們這次生育率的確是降了0.1個百分比然後出來的結果是這個數字那基本上我們是覺得我們的推估模型應該算是夠精準了"},{"start":4943.274,"end":4958.756,"text":"是對我們看到這個少子化已經成為是國安的這個問題那出生率就是非常的重要那尤其是我們看到這整個報告到2030年的低估這個我們整個來看的這個低估值就將近是11.2"},{"start":4960.799,"end":4969.983,"text":"的二萬人出生率尤其是少估了1.1萬人如果2018年的少子化我們也針對於少子化對策來講我們有針對像我們要擴大教保的能量服務或是我們托育的更要補助再來做加碼尤其是我們就學的學費我們也一直在降低跟育兒津貼還有最重要的就是我們生養的意願的問題這個都是我們"},{"start":4990.552,"end":5012.473,"text":"國發會你們都有考量進去的部分嗎?現在是政府的政策裡面0到6歲國家一起養的部分現在是可以補助到7000到13500那我也不瞞你說我們在兩禮拜前有再討論一下可不可以再把它增加可是這個增加的費用可能就會到500到1000億以上那我們目前是需要這個預算是沒辦法找到裁員"},{"start":5012.913,"end":5022.967,"text":"來自國家養政策要出來你的對策計畫你就要適時的來做一個調整尤其是提高年輕人結婚率為什麼這樣講年輕人如果據統計我看到一些數字說90%的"},{"start":5030.436,"end":5054.998,"text":"結婚的年輕人90%都會生小孩所以要鼓勵年輕人結婚那結婚的話就有房價的問題、物價的問題啊還有孩子生養的問題嗎還有一個更大的問題就是我們現在幾個調查下來比重最高的第一名是沒有找到他理想的結婚對象現在是比重最高在我們的各項調查沒有找到理想的對象對我們有兩個調查下來都是同一個問題"},{"start":5056.164,"end":5070.468,"text":"這不是結婚的問題也是因素之一啊所以我說因素也很多啦但是我們可以協助幫忙的沒辦法幫他擇偶嘛那你是不是應該就在整個環境上給他們做一個改善包括我們要講的就像這個托育的問題啊這個環境他"},{"start":5075.169,"end":5080.151,"text":"他只要結婚90%都會生小孩那生小孩就要養的問題嘛就托育的問題那就像我們桃園來講的話我們托育的這個公托的設施有49個實際收養的收托的人數有1518人在等待的就1778人這個是來等待的有很多市長說我排不到沒有來的還有更多這就表示我們這個公托的這個場域這設施是不夠的對不對"},{"start":5106.31,"end":5132.058,"text":"這個問題我會來反映到那個像教育部然後來把您這個數字我們事後再跟您取得我們來看一下教育部這邊有沒有什麼可以協助的地方所以主委這一方面你們一定還要再加強這什麼對策這樣做一個調整包括我們剛剛講的就是救取的環境這等等部分好不好好謝謝主委那你請回我們請那個教育部的張次長教育部專調市長"},{"start":5135.447,"end":5155.863,"text":"市長,我們就延續前面的話題這公托的環境、公托的設施非常不足那教育部這邊有沒有機會可能會增加?對,我們其實一直逐年在增加剛剛在報告裡面也提到這幾年來增加的比例已經讓公共化幼兒園跟准公幼兒園你準備增加多少?到50萬,現在超過50萬50萬?桃園會增加多少?"},{"start":5161.57,"end":5161.81,"text":"議員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5179.381,"end":5199.409,"text":"所以我也要就教一下次長因為我們現在對少子化很多學校招生不足尤其我們看到很多技職學校是更需要被我們教育部關心的尤其是我們產業跟這個技職的來講是個屬於合作的部分但合作的話在資產上也可以幫我們培養更多專業的人才"},{"start":5201.59,"end":5223.637,"text":"那尤其是本席也跟我們教育部之前有提出了這個第二期的技職教育的再造計畫也是希望我們把整個技職教育環境可以得到更多的改善那我們可以看到就是很多的那個技大將近有招生停招部分的有17個科大這個招生的部分就有15間都是技職學校"},{"start":5224.598,"end":5231.798,"text":"十七間大學停招十五間都是禁止學校在這種情形之下我們要怎麼樣來改善這個問題"},{"start":5234.035,"end":5256.236,"text":"這個這樣少子化的情況下真的是會這個退場的那個現象還是會持續的這個是不可貴但是在整個教育部的政策上比如說即時教育問題我們現在在推那個新五專就是3加4其實這不是這樣子講的對對像那個產息2.0啦或者是那個我們對那個私立科大像那個私立學校都有補助那個學費所以我們認為說這個"},{"start":5257.757,"end":5270.686,"text":"家長們都會擔心孩子畢業而夜夜找得到工作嗎所以很多在讀一般大學或者是普通高中的時候他們沒有專業的技術那畢業了可能就會失業所以我們在技術教育上要重新的來讓我們大家的家長跟孩子們那個價值觀的改善"},{"start":5274.209,"end":5299.994,"text":"尤其是我們像我們高職的人數從2018年的36萬人一直到2023年剩下26萬人這短短的6年就少了10萬人所以我們在這邊建議在普通高中跟大學的時候我們計職教育的課程跟學程或是開專班來讓我們的計職能夠讓我們孩子有一定的這個計職教育的能量好不好對謝謝委員你的建議就是對接這個產業的需求我們會繼續來努力好不好那會後的資料我們會提供給委員謝謝"},{"start":5302.997,"end":5305.278,"text":"李玉琳委員非常精準的質詢謝謝下一位質詢請張其凱委員"},{"start":5334.656,"end":5362.324,"text":"阿謙、劉主委請國家劉主委張委員早所以我聽拜有問你國安基金是人民的納稅錢這每一分錢投資都非常重要而且就應該是對國家發展是正面的結果去投資的一個戰爭片已經不得當了第二個"},{"start":5363.544,"end":5390.166,"text":"你會發現凌日供給這部片至少有六成的錢都是政府的資金那國發金是變成一個綠色的投資結果我說你要上相關的資料給我對不對你給我的資料是什麼是忘記了還是不敢給你給我的扣掉封面之後大概只剩下薄薄的三頁這個字這麼大你是什麼忘記了還是什麼不敢給我"},{"start":5391.223,"end":5413.894,"text":"我當初跟你要的有這個投資的計畫書、申請書、營運的計畫書還有最重要的就當初你說文化部那邊只要審查對不對我說你審議的那個會議紀錄啊你要攤開給全民、給全民去檢視啊你這些東西都沒有給我捏你這樣拔薄的三頁左右裡面這個字這麼大"},{"start":5415.632,"end":5434.184,"text":"真正講到內容的大概只有300字欸報告委員因為這個資料在文化部所以文化部的文策院昨天有到您辦公室跟您的主任有報告他會事後提供事後再提供他昨天有去承諾啦因為這個不在我們手上所以我們請他們來他花我們人民納稅錢花國發基金的錢欸"},{"start":5437.065,"end":5461.07,"text":"你聽住這個進度好不好尤其有講到那個點那個很多民眾都在關心的國家發展基金人民的錢為什麼去投資一個戰爭片對我們經濟發展是好的嗎對外資來投資是好的嗎這個我同意所以我們也找了這個文化部希望他們將來是投資到產業上不是在影片上"},{"start":5461.51,"end":5462.41,"text":"希望透過帶動產業的發展,不是投資影片。」"},{"start":5481.532,"end":5504.433,"text":"這個文車院給你的也是你給我的一個資料說啊這個會議啊你們召開這個投資審查會議通過這個投資4170萬那個時間點我把它簽起來你看113年的今年對不對對今年3月26號是然後本席再去查你知道這個你投資的這家公司這個影片什麼時候開拍"},{"start":5507.227,"end":5513.615,"text":"呃...我不知道因為我們也...我沒有...你看會不會...會不會覺得太奇怪3月15號就開拍欸這個影片在3月15號就開拍然後你國發基金通過給到時間是3月26嗯"},{"start":5523.536,"end":5550.891,"text":"這個很正常 很多公司都是成立以後才來跟我們申請基金啊不會沒有成立就來申請不是 不是成立是開拍是開拍的時間欸你沒有資金到位你敢開拍喔這個以商業行為來講我想這個投資商自己會決定啊但是我因為我們並沒有介入到這件事裡面喔所以這看不見實吧 這不是常識吧這他自己要判斷問題是國發基金"},{"start":5553.191,"end":5557.255,"text":"包括文化部要你除了有內線交易要不然你資金欸你的國發基金加上文化部給他的錢佔了這個部片投資的44%欸44%如果沒有到位一般人一般公司敢就開拍齁啊你還敢給他錢"},{"start":5575.383,"end":5597.551,"text":"這是不是很離譜?委員狀況是這樣齁,因為我們這個錢給到了文化部以後是文化部在主導這件這個這個整合的規劃你不能每次我問你這個事情你都推給文化部啦這是你的,而且是人民的納稅錢委員我跟您報告齁,我們現在遲到你要去問清楚,問完之後你還是要詳細的,不是要跟北極報告我不是在幫全民會檢視嗎?我為什麼跟你要一個當初你開會的會議資料?"},{"start":5600.183,"end":5619.679,"text":"就攬開給全民看該不該投資現在不是只有立法院在盯著這個案子全民會判斷只有一個代表參加我們整個國發基金現在的遲到緣額只有29位其實他管理的量能是一兆多其實我們沒辦法每一個主委你不要講你的困難你要解決問題"},{"start":5621.823,"end":5645.818,"text":"你是要解決問題的人你不要把問題丟出來給我們你發現有問題你要去解決好不好所以該給的東西該給全民跟立法院跟全民檢查來來我再問你一個更嚴重的問題這個片子到底是衛福先知或內線交易錢都沒有到位就開始拍了那更嚴重的啊你去看一下他這個內容是怎麼樣片子是什麼人民納稅錢去幫民進黨拍一個宣傳片嗎你看喔"},{"start":5647.369,"end":5654.032,"text":"公司董事林錦昌陳水扁當過國安會陳水扁國安會執行委員、行政院政務委員、國安會副秘書長、蔡英文總統進行文稿、發言總顧問林錦昌有顧問沈柏洋"},{"start":5667.011,"end":5686.397,"text":"民進黨立法委員、黑熊學院的創辦人兼院長、曹新成黑熊學院的這個贊助者、蘇紫瑩防衛者的兄弟、國防安全研究所的這個首長最特別的你看這個導演啊拍了一部片子叫賴清德總統競選的這個廣告再度上大家問啊我問你"},{"start":5693.257,"end":5706.157,"text":"你的錢來自哪裡?人民嘛,對不對?投資的都是利有有的。這是不是人家很容易聯想嘛,就把人民的錢搬去幫民進黨拍的一個宣傳片嘛,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":5707.156,"end":5730.314,"text":"主委你後期...OK所以我為什麼要一個就是說不只立法院在監督我要求的是非常公正理性的我只要你把當初你開會的審查的這個紀錄攤開來你送到本期辦公室我們攤開來給全民來檢視好不好對這個昨天我們有帶文車院到貴辦公室其實他們會送過來因為開會在他們那邊開的所以他會把資料他有答應把資料送過去"},{"start":5730.774,"end":5759.333,"text":"好OK最重要是把資料完整好不好用全民來做功德備啊看他們人民辛辛苦苦的每一分的納稅錢用到什麼地方去好不好好另外我們來談一個也是很重要的事情這個前瞻預算的第四期啊有一個很重要叫做綠營建設花了編列了多少錢綠營建設近年公正轉型關鍵戰略推動計畫編列了1億9千2百萬差不多兩億喔這個主要的"},{"start":5760.396,"end":5787.966,"text":"主責機關就是你國發會嘛對不對那我們來看一下成效來第一個人均的這個碳排放啊一年要碳排多少12公噸臺灣經過國發會那麼努力還有剛剛這個計畫開2億結果我們的結果是什麼溫室氣體的排放量全世界倒死第四有這麼明顯嗎"},{"start":5789.602,"end":5812.213,"text":"第二個也是很離譜的能源部門佔溫室氣體的排放從104年8乘5喔他不只沒有降喔所以你看一下我們的政府這麼努力結果我們的溫室氣體的排放量不只沒有降從8乘5還跳到110年的9成再看下一張能源部門裡面"},{"start":5813.666,"end":5827.486,"text":"能源產業的碳排放量超過7成這比例也非常高我們再看下一頁這個是目前最嚴重的問題這目前最嚴重的問題全世界都在淨零碳排"},{"start":5829.042,"end":5844.555,"text":"其實我們台灣一直在以廢在發電我很快跟委員報告我把它講完我把它講完你剛才的數字是2023年的數字下降非常多可是你沿用的是2022年2022年是成立這個計畫的第一年我剛剛給你的資料實際上是環境部的資料啦OK你如果有更新的"},{"start":5845.375,"end":5863.487,"text":"我當時就是因為拿這個資料去執行過環境部結果得到的數據2023年是有的但因為他會lag兩年所以他們有一個毛菇數沒有最終實際數那麼看這個更重要的這個牽扯到我們的關係到全民的健康跟生命用化石燃料來發電你看喔在2005年的時候"},{"start":5874.321,"end":5888.488,"text":"佔總發電量的75.5%：到了2003年,不只沒有降,反而是升高了,變81.8,這是很沒有面子的,對人民的健康、對人民的生命也是不利的。」"},{"start":5891.233,"end":5916.339,"text":"所以另外一個大的問題我拜託主委去查一下好不好拜託一下這個事情很重要最大單一排放的來源就是台電對不對大家知道嗎我們法令這個修改裡面出現台電現在是不用繳碳費的民進的電廠也不用繳碳費的我提醒主委好不好為什麼要修碳費就是要減碳嘛對不對"},{"start":5917.661,"end":5942.393,"text":"結果我們台電還有民間電廠竟然不用繳碳費,這個在歐盟沒有這種事情,在先進國家沒有,我最後做一個要求,我最後做一個Ending,來,好,第一個,不要獨落最大單一的排碳的這個大戶,台電是不是應該繳碳費,這個要好好去討論,包括有沒有土地民間電廠,他們為什麼不用繳碳費,這個要趕快去討論,第二個,不要一直在燒煤好不好,另外高碳排這些化石的燃料,"},{"start":5943.493,"end":5967.529,"text":"有問題,不能一直犧牲我們的健康,要怎麼樣把它降下來,注意力要去努力。」好不好?好,謝謝主委,謝謝主席,大家請回座來,下一位委員,請張家俊委員質詢主席,我想請主委請國安會劉主委"},{"start":5974.307,"end":5995.718,"text":"劉主委早安張委員早今天我們在探討的這個少子化問題我想對一個國家來說人力即是國力人口代表著生產力跟競爭力那低迷的這個生育率將使我們國家的勞動力減少稅收減少社會支出增多"},{"start":5996.218,"end":6022.064,"text":"學校體系崩潰包括社會撫養負擔加重嚴重的來說是讓我們走向滅國的危機啊所以請問國發會主委喔主委本席在10月7號的時候質詢您的時候曾問您說2024年的這個人口推估報告到底什麼時候會發布那您說10月17日那對於國發會說到做到本席給予"},{"start":6023.224,"end":6040.659,"text":"高度的肯定,但是本席想詢問的是,方案及做法,那時候你告訴我說延遲上傳的理由是因為希望帶著方案與做法來面對,但是呢,在這一份人口推估報告中,本席翻了你們112頁的報告,"},{"start":6044.622,"end":6069.568,"text":"從頭到尾都沒有提出解決的方案只有在新聞稿裡面稍稍提及那今天的主軸如何解決少子化的問題原本期待是針對少子化國發會可以提出具體的政策手段跟目標但是大家不知道有沒有看今天的報告今天的書面報告竟然怎麼解決少子化的問題只有143個字"},{"start":6073.12,"end":6096.052,"text":"只有143個字。」主委你可以說明一下嗎?我跟您報告我們其實開了幾個小型會議大型的跨部會議一個是在10月1號陳時中政委及和所有的部會相關部會一個重大的討論我們盤點了所有的內容希望大家進行改善的規劃"},{"start":6097.393,"end":6103.879,"text":"然後呢我們在10月17號我國家發展委員會是一個跨部會的首長所以你現在在告訴本席就是說你們開的會議相當的沒有效率而且也提出具體的作為所以具體的作為是什麼過去16年過去16年兩任總統都提出這是國安問題"},{"start":6116.531,"end":6122.998,"text":"我們不可能在兩個月內或是一個月內我們就可以馬上成為委員我們現在是基於這個方案上面我們進行優化優化我們算出來的錢呢大家一千億以上我們希望委員能支持我們預算來做這件事情預算當然只要你花的合理對國家有幫助我們沒有理由反對"},{"start":6137.054,"end":6150.723,"text":"大家給你們時間就是希望國發會可以拿出誠意拿出你們的想法如何解決少子化的問題但是你們到目前你們到目前只寫了143個字搞不好你連143個字的內容"},{"start":6155.586,"end":6174.941,"text":"主委搞不好都還不理解。」那我想這感覺就像是ChartGPT寫出來的就直接跟ChartGPT寫說整理出國際上各種解決少子化的方案就想交差了事這種態度呢似乎有一點太草率了本席覺得你們應該要再振奮一點"},{"start":6176.373,"end":6193.618,"text":"委員在我們的報告裡面我們提到其實我們國家已經有10個相關的法令跟計畫正在進行中包括少子化、中高齡等等然後也提出了各部會的施政的主軸跟方向所以你現在這份報告是滿意的意思嗎你現在在告訴本席說你對於這份報告對於少子化只有提出143個字的建議你是滿意的囉"},{"start":6201.64,"end":6206.542,"text":"我沒有這樣講,但是以今天報告的時間來講,我只能準備這麼多的資料。」是啊,那你如果不滿意的話,你要更努力啊,你要答應本席,答應我們委員會說,國發會應該更努力才對啊。檢報跟實際做的計畫是沒辦法一致的。那你現在告訴我,我現在就是親自讓你講,你講你現在目前針對少子化有什麼具體化的作為?"},{"start":6226.384,"end":6243.07,"text":"我們做了相當的分析我講幾個比較大的重點就是第一個我們過去並比較沒有太花時間在談結婚率的問題那我們現在看到結婚率的比重是比較低第二個延後生育所以結婚率你可以拿出什麼具體作為"},{"start":6244.482,"end":6271.328,"text":"你講得非常好我們其實探討了非常久我們一直在debate一個事情父母解不掉小孩的問題國家有沒有能力解掉這麼多小孩的問題那我們只能解我們現在著重兩個方向第一個是想生有困難的譬如說0到6歲國家一起養包括我們強化對於不應證的解方包括我們再談到動亂的可能包括我們也會有新的法案讓"},{"start":6272.748,"end":6280.231,"text":"坦白講,讓單身的婦女可以做人工受孕等等,我們希望先幫助想生的人生生。那我們現在跟您報告,去年有一萬多個小孩是因為不應證的補助而生出來的。」"},{"start":6289.335,"end":6313.112,"text":"但是呢涉及的面向深度、廣度跟投入的資源真的是有待加強我希望說國發會既然你已經提出了那你要努力去爭取預算啊我們一定會支持但是你要說服其他的包括你行政院內部你要說服大家說為什麼這個這麼重要那你說到立法院來我們當然要支持啊因為這個力道真的是有待加強"},{"start":6314.033,"end":6330.399,"text":"本席也清楚說全世界的已開發國家大部分都面臨著人口自然增加率降低甚至負數的問題甚至有一些已開發國家他們已經這個高於平均那我的意思就是說您知道"},{"start":6330.819,"end":6356.571,"text":"有哪一些自然增加率不錯的國家是我們可以學習的那我們以加拿大為例好了就是政府鼓勵生育的政策我們是0至6歲國家養他們是0至17歲都國家養包括0至5歲每年最高補助是17.8萬台幣6至17每年是15萬台幣的補助這直接是由現金補助其他包括產價、育嬰價"},{"start":6358.132,"end":6363.914,"text":"等有15週全新的產價這其實我覺得都是國發會可以參考的那我想就是這個可以借鏡的部分很多那主委同意嗎?這一點我同意那但是我們算過他要1000多億這個我們真的算過因為日本也是0到18歲每人每月是1萬日幣到3000萬日幣1000億你要想喔你要想喔我們普波台電已經4000億了"},{"start":6387.302,"end":6409.118,"text":"而且是花在我們看不到的地方,這一千億我覺得如果你投資在少子化等級大大的支持你不要花在那種你去做非核家園你去做這個關閉核能廠然後讓我們無形中花這麼多錢然後對社會也沒有大大任何幫助你同不同意你同不同意說其實撥補台電的錢應該拿來投資在少子化上面"},{"start":6411.34,"end":6413.102,"text":"二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6427.113,"end":6439.968,"text":"我們其實就我瞭解當時是不希望電力太高的漲價去傷害到人民的利益我想大家都有這個想法那我們現在回到我們剛才談的少子化的利益你政策面影響到國家去對這個買單所以你覺得少子化投資1000億你覺得很多嗎?"},{"start":6446.957,"end":6455.269,"text":"不,我想法跟你一樣所以我很支持您的看法但是這個部分的財源不足如果有特別預算我覺得會比較容易就是我們回到這個報告本身明年我們即將進入老年化人口超過兩成的超高齡社會"},{"start":6463.32,"end":6487.685,"text":"那四年後人口紅利就正式結束了甚至2070年我們臺灣會剩下不到1500萬的人那我們現在目前會面臨著社會福利縮水年輕勞動力匱乏甚至整個社會都失去活力現在臺灣就已經出現各級學校都招不到學生傳統產業缺工募賓而達不到目標的狀況國發會有什麼對策嗎?"},{"start":6494.673,"end":6513.03,"text":"我們可能用書面說明吧。」好,麻煩,謝謝。謝謝委員。謝謝張家俊委員。來,主委請回座。我們在鄭天才委員執行之後我們休息。接下來下一位執行委員請陳庭梅委員。"},{"start":6524.127,"end":6550.142,"text":"謝謝召委,我們請主委。主委長我想這個議題是全世界的問題因為就像主委所說的它其實會造成我們的低出生率其實有很多因素那我們現在就要去盤整"},{"start":6551.523,"end":6574.663,"text":"盤整說造成這些因素的原因那其實有時候我們在談這個議題我自己也是製造這個低出生率的原因之一因為我們都是單身那表示單身的女性也越來越多那單身的女性越來越多再加上這一個所謂雙薪家庭他會認為他的壓力過大"},{"start":6577.915,"end":6591.404,"text":"他當要養一個小孩在養父母親他會覺得他的壓力過大所以這也是為什麼我們要提升所謂的長照從2.0到3.0從民進黨執政小英總統從300億到600億到明年預算已經到927億了就是這長照的部分也就是我們政府來幫他照顧爸爸媽媽"},{"start":6602.351,"end":6622.245,"text":"讓他無後顧之憂而能夠把他的心力轉嫁在小孩子身上否則對於一個雙薪家庭確實照顧小孩在照顧到自己的長輩壓力確實很大而且他要照顧的可能是四個人可能是四個人"},{"start":6623.737,"end":6649.934,"text":"所以在這樣的一個前提之下我們不斷的架構所有周邊的一個環境因素然後把這些環境因素減輕他們的壓力再回歸到所謂生小孩的議題那生小孩的議題我們也知道卓榮泰院長日前宣布說我們要落實0到6歲國家養的政策明年度要編列1082億的預算"},{"start":6654.246,"end":6660.073,"text":"那其實我為什麼會強調這個就遺憾的是當我們在討論這個議題的時候我們不論是在長照3.0我們明年編了927億還是在0到6歲國家養的政策明年度編1082億不好意思"},{"start":6675.537,"end":6703.882,"text":"這個預算現在還在空中飛因為它進不了我們的討論範圍裡面現在被擋住要被退回所以其實我們一直講的是你沒有預算來協助沒有減輕這些我們年輕一輩的壓力大家寧可選擇就是不去碰觸這個議題不要去生育"},{"start":6705.495,"end":6726.793,"text":"所以你看我們在之前我們在所有國發會的資料裡面所看到的是我們不論做了很多的補助從托兒、托育到幼兒的補助基本上我們到2024年到目前為止我們的生育率還是一樣只有0.86"},{"start":6729.113,"end":6754.019,"text":"就零點八六欸,低於一欸,但是這一段時間我們有沒有在做?有,如果沒有做了這些,可能生育率更低啊,是不是?可是另外一個方向大家會講說,啊有做嘛,但是這叫一向是正面思考,一向是負面思考。我們要講的如果沒有做這些動作,有可能生育率更低。"},{"start":6754.963,"end":6778.241,"text":"年輕人、年輕朋友對政府越沒有信賴感越不敢生小孩所以可能會更低所以依照我們國發會自己所提供的資料你們在未來評估也都是低於一耶沒錯也是都低於一耶那我們到底有什麼政策再來"},{"start":6779.96,"end":6805.817,"text":"我們所呈現的新生兒的人數依照人數比例人數來講2040年你們的預估是有可能低於10萬我們2024是新生兒人數就只有目前為止是13.1萬目前為止那如果再預估到2040是會低於10萬這數字是非常可怕的"},{"start":6810.973,"end":6837.621,"text":"所以主委我們到底怎麼做我們該做的我們要再做那現在陳時中政委他有提出一個方向說政府是否可以嚴明育兒補助獎勵措施一個寶貝一個寶寶每個月補助三萬育兒補助你認為這個建議如何"},{"start":6841.105,"end":6845.86,"text":"這個可以紓解年輕人對於養育小孩的壓力"},{"start":6847.097,"end":6873.885,"text":"我覺得這是好的方向除了這個以外我們現在也希望他們可以優先取得社宅那第二個事情再來是我們希望協助他對照顧父母的壓力也紓解掉當然社宅是解決他住房的壓力居住的壓力叫居住正義那當有居住正義之後當有安定的一個家他才會去思考我是不是可以"},{"start":6874.545,"end":6894.672,"text":"有機會去照顧我的下一代如果他居無定所當然就不會去思考我要去養育下一代所以這是聯動的所以從社會住宅從居住正義讓我們的年輕一輩可以有一個好的居住環境"},{"start":6895.872,"end":6922.352,"text":"讓他去思考他可以再去養育下一代所以這是連帶的那現在所提出的包括我所講的從居住然後再長照幫他照顧爸爸媽媽然後減輕他這一塊的壓力那麼我們如果在所謂的育兒的這一個部分一個小孩每個月補助三萬"},{"start":6924.492,"end":6938.574,"text":"這當然是試算了這還沒有一個精確的就是說這個陳時中政委也說這只是一個試算出來的一個數目但是起碼如果我們現在其實我們補助都不是齊頭式的啦"},{"start":6939.815,"end":6968.795,"text":"現在我們對於育兒的部分從托育、托兒因為他還有所謂的可能你如果是公幼非營利他就一種補助然後如果是準公共化又是另外所以他是不一樣的然後育兒津貼又是另外一個部分所以計算起來其實大家不一定是有那麼多的7000到13500對不是那麼齊頭式那麼如果是這樣子的話陳時中政委所提出的"},{"start":6970.416,"end":6987.317,"text":"這個就是屬於齊頭式的就是一個寶寶就是每個月補助三萬讓你去支應小孩子可能要去支應的部分這就一個不同的一個變革跟我們現在的思考邏輯又有點不同"},{"start":6987.537,"end":6989.217,"text":"兼職委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7006.144,"end":7020.834,"text":"所以這是其中一個方案還是比較已經有focus焦點的方案是好幾個方案裡面的其中一個方案還是大家討論完之後這個方案不錯只是現在在找裁員我們其實討論四個方案"},{"start":7022.735,"end":7033.709,"text":"財源真的有限,如果…當然我有建議提特別預算的概念,因為這是一國家大事,如果能有特別預算來專程解決這個問題,可能對國家比較有利,但是現在還沒有定論。」"},{"start":7040.757,"end":7043.198,"text":"每個月補助3萬元每個月補助3萬元每個月補助3萬元"},{"start":7066.903,"end":7070.864,"text":"對,長遠性應該朝這個方向。而不是說有不一樣的一個補助方式。那其實對於家長來講,可以讓他有這樣的心願意去生小孩。"},{"start":7087.669,"end":7113.784,"text":"用因不夠大家還是覺得說壓力很大所以乾脆我們就一次在這個育兒補助獎勵一個小孩每個月補助3萬元這個方向其實是比較能夠讓大家有期待的好 這個再拜託主委我再跟他多討論謝謝謝謝陳庭文委員來 主委請回座來 下位質詢請鄭天才委員"},{"start":7128.394,"end":7149.106,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請主任委員、教育部市長、衛福部署長、周署長。各位好,今天的議題非常非常的重要。這個臺灣"},{"start":7153.864,"end":7164.147,"text":"全球最低的生意力,台灣。這個按照國會你的預估我國人口將由2024年的2340萬減少到2070年的1497萬人減少844萬人。事實上,如果我們從你的數字"},{"start":7183.735,"end":7205.362,"text":"尤其是減少的就是年齡越小的事實上少子女化是國安問題已經喊了超過10年了然後這幾年當然政府也在努力也在做但是"},{"start":7207.975,"end":7232.252,"text":"這個過去我一再的質詢行政院應該要最起碼少子女化辦公室但是都沒有設了那我們賴總統設了三個委員會也沒有把這個國安問題列在那個委員會裡面現在就是由政務委員政務委員也很忙我們是九個政務委員"},{"start":7233.744,"end":7261.112,"text":"他們也很多事情所以這個一直維持過去的一個那國安會當然除了這個之外提了這個相關的主要政策提了這些政策結果一估的未來還是會減少這麼多所以這個部分顯然這個政策要去做調整要怎麼去因應當然這裡面很多政策你都提了"},{"start":7263.482,"end":7289.987,"text":"就沒有提到年輕人買房也買不起租房子也租得很貴雖然很多的政策都在推動事實上並沒有根本的去解決這些問題所以這個部分這個各部會當然就國發會一些可能也很難仰賴政務委員他真的很忙他還有很多審議很多的法案"},{"start":7291.364,"end":7298.626,"text":"國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7320.154,"end":7346.373,"text":"或者勢力的托孕中心都不足。」我跟這個衛福部做說明一個禮拜前、兩個禮拜前剛剛已經當了好幾屆的立法委員他現在沒有當立委了好不容易他的孩子好不容易有了孫子"},{"start":7347.486,"end":7350.147,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7374.151,"end":7400.098,"text":"願意生、敢生所以這個部分光這個就不足啊所以這裡面提到薪資3萬多我們看勞動部長說薪水低於3.1萬就是低薪勞工啊我們只比低薪勞工多一點點照顧小孩嬰兒或是這個幼兒"},{"start":7403.612,"end":7432.483,"text":"很辛苦的對不對勞動部長說3.1萬就是低薪勞工我們只比低薪勞工多一點點所以這個部分都是問題所以剛才為什麼有委員說這金額不足嘛對不對金額不足嘛我本來不想談四千多億台電"},{"start":7433.618,"end":7462.538,"text":"加上核電當初新設就4000多億啊8000多億將近9000多億的錢投入結果就不用4000多億蓋核電廠4000多億當時的4000多億不是現在的所以這個我們的錢人民的錢都就是這樣花的但是真正國安的問題對不對你先"},{"start":7464.272,"end":7491.168,"text":"為勞動部或是各部會所寫的沒有提到這些了我常常講的是什麼?軍人嘛自然就越來越少了對不對?那以後要外籍軍人喔這個就台灣而言備戰最重要就是人啊"},{"start":7492.208,"end":7520.908,"text":"這也在座嗎?再怎麼精良的武器也要有精良的軍人來去操作來去使用啊現在完全完全真的是所以國發會很重要要怎麼去整合相關的問題所以這個部分是需要去非常重要的很大的一個政策要去統籌"},{"start":7522.983,"end":7547.154,"text":"當然是這個部分要一個要有決定前的人來去做這個統合的業務相關各部會的業務包括國防部我剛講的對不對這個都有關係志願役就能越來越少因為他是低薪勞工"},{"start":7549.858,"end":7576.323,"text":"都是低薪勞工啊!他是24小時在軍營區呢?對不對?沒有自由呢?當然不去了啊!對不對?去了離開的比例很高啊!這個是一個國安問題不是只有講的這些一般的人數而已啊!包括"},{"start":7579.14,"end":7606.909,"text":"包括軍力、國防那才是真正的國安所以這個是很廣的所以我從這個第8屆當立委就開始諮詢少子女化辦公室最起碼行政院要成立那當然由賴總統來去成立委員會那更好所以比那個三個委員會還都還"},{"start":7608.624,"end":7632.737,"text":"來得重要啊對不對我們一直說從國外來小外生來結果呢事實上不是這麼一回事啊花了那麼多錢在那邊所以還是怎麼樣讓我們的年輕人感生好我們這個主委還有這個衛福部請回座我們就請最後一部最後一個議題"},{"start":7636.376,"end":7661.183,"text":"市長希望你能夠重視這個112年6月29號行政院公布了私立大專學校學習費掃腳3.5萬這個掃腳基本上都不包含原住民因為原住民本來從國民政府時代"},{"start":7664.912,"end":7686.178,"text":"一直到現在教育部從過去的省政府教育廳到現在的教育部都有這個學雜費的減免但是都沒有調啊這邊私立大學少繳了3.5萬我們毫無受惠變成這麼多錢了"},{"start":7690.038,"end":7716.258,"text":"我們毫無所悔所以本席曾經開過協調會也曾經質詢過前任的陳俊仁院長前任的部長也說要研議所以到現在還沒有一個結果所以要請次長而且這個部分不是因為107到現在都沒有條了"},{"start":7717.353,"end":7745.596,"text":"也夠久了所以這個部分是這個要請次長是報告委員這個高中以下首長跟我說其實是那個對住宿對這個我知道都有調整這國民政府時代就開始的了對其實都有滾動性在調整補助那大學的部分因為那個私立大學那個政策補助3.5萬部分因為原來原住民學生就已經有補助了我知道所以要同步"},{"start":7746.127,"end":7773.58,"text":"我們也人數很少啦是,我們未來會一起檢討啦看這個他的住宿費用啦或者其他的費用上能夠給予補助的部分或獎學金的部分我們會來提供研究好不好那會後的資料我們再提供給不用資料我都有所以住宿稅要增加減免原住民與非原住民的大專學生的落差"},{"start":7774.929,"end":7787.44,"text":"百分之三十幾啊百分之三十幾交易的提升很重要所以這個部務必要請次長來幫幫忙好謝謝委員我們來努力謝謝謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員來次長請回座這個鄭委員、賴委員剛剛已經有宣告過"},{"start":7799.161,"end":7804.533,"text":"因為宣告過了,政委員之後要休息了那已經有宣告過了現在休息7分鐘"},{"start":8229.676,"end":8234.261,"text":"好,官員請就座我們繼續開會,下一位諮詢請鄭正前委員"},{"start":8266.985,"end":8288.802,"text":"謝主席我想請一下我們國發會留主委還有我們教育部的張廖萬堅政策教育部張廖政策曾委員早昨天早我在想說臺灣少子化問題已經很多年了你應該知道從什麼時候開始出現生不如死的狀態對不對幾年"},{"start":8292.105,"end":8295.407,"text":"二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":8318.956,"end":8339.709,"text":"這排序大家都非常的慘那我後來是看到了幾個狀態是因為我發現那個國發會在算我們的人口數的時候一直都算得不太準那麼今年一到九月份的時候我們只有九萬七千七百三十三人那麼也比之前來得少那我看了我們就是針對國發會在評估我們就是"},{"start":8343.632,"end":8368.009,"text":"每一年度的出生率包括從高推估、中推估跟低推估來算的時候那我看的狀態其實基本上我們的實際出生數都比我們國發會這邊所提供出來的低推估還要少就我們少子化問題嚴重到比國發會的低推估還要少人主委你知道這個事情嗎"},{"start":8370.083,"end":8383.195,"text":"我只知道那是上一版的今年我們這次的那個出生率我們有下調然後所以我們有對應到今年對到今年你們預計今年出生人數多少人"},{"start":8384.401,"end":8399.25,"text":"我們今年到7月為我們大概是原定是13萬上下啦13萬人上下是不是?那我們到7月份比去年同期大概少了將近5000位因為我看了所有數字當中的時候那個"},{"start":8400.15,"end":8428.4,"text":"到時候我再來我們本報告是因為我們有很清楚去整理一下我們從105、107、109到110年所有的低推估針對110年跟113年的人數的狀態那你們也許有不同的報告那我們希望能夠更精準因為少子化問題確實非常非常的嚴重好那我們再往下這個部分其實是台灣從2000年到今年1到9月為止的人數你發現就持續的下降當中"},{"start":8429.764,"end":8455.517,"text":"只有在2008年到2016年當中的時候這邊曾經有就是反轉那我在因為我看你報告裡面其實你也寫到很多我們少子化問題的理由那你可不可以解釋一下為什麼在這段時間當中的時候我們的人口其實是成長的而不是持續的下降主委2016年是農年"},{"start":8456.69,"end":8465.536,"text":"那一年是有龍年的效應呢?2012年……龍年現在我們今年也是龍年的效應啊怎麼沒有看到龍年效應出來?"},{"start":8467.069,"end":8486.669,"text":"對今年是我們也記得在有在討論這個問題今年為什麼農年效應是比往年我再想說這邊我提到一個一個學界的一個看法他覺得因為事實上說臺灣的政府其實在針對少子化問題已經做了非常的做很多努力不管是給錢給更好的一個"},{"start":8487.51,"end":8514.41,"text":"社會福利相關的一個政策等等的部分的時候可是我們的少子化問題還是持續的下降從陳水扁在那八年當中每一年都持續的下降蔡英文的八年當中也是每一年都持續的下降只有在馬英九執政的這八年當中的時候曾經反轉那我們有一個解釋的狀態就是說會不會是因為兩岸問題讓民眾覺得和平的穩定性高的時候大家就更敢於生孩子對"},{"start":8517.113,"end":8543.959,"text":"這樣一個觀點你覺得是不是可以解釋在這為什麼在馬這八年當中的時候我們的出生人口數會反轉?這個因為當然我就想承諾我報告他那一年剛好是農年是一個因素那至於為什麼有沒有其他的因素我想我們還需要再去分析那我這邊有提到一個狀態我想應該是雙方的事情不是單方面的事情可是重點就是說"},{"start":8546.107,"end":8572.795,"text":"和平會讓老百姓更有安全感所以大家可能會更敢生孩子所以整個的大環境來說是重要的那我想說我今天先提這個部分給主委這邊那我們要怎麼樣去做因為這不是國發會一個單位可以做出來的事因為我們今天邀請了五、六個部會來可是沒有陸委會所以我接下來我想問一個事情就是我們在看到就是"},{"start":8574.909,"end":8586.758,"text":"台灣在今天的主題當中在針對那個少子化問題還有針對那個亞鄰國家攬才留才的競爭力比較我想問一下主委我們亞鄰國家含不含大陸"},{"start":8589.678,"end":8610.326,"text":"韓大陸的確是對岸是我們的亞鄰國家沒有錯啦是可是因為我看到你在這裡面的時候呢所有的評估當中的時候基本上都沒有著墨到這個點那我想說再往下先往下問一個問題因為大陸地區人民其實我們之前"},{"start":8611.426,"end":8631.357,"text":"兩岸交流的時候有很多大陸的學生來那我想問一下我們張家萬間政策就是說我們今年有錄取了多少大陸學生?今年有沒有大陸學生來?多少人?"},{"start":8632.557,"end":8639.179,"text":"大概都是研修生,詳細資料我這邊沒有。」我簡單跟你講一下今年113學年報考臺灣碩博士放榜了34個學校總共只有174個人那麼區額高達1326名那麼整個招生率只有11.6是這14年來最低的一個水位"},{"start":8658.144,"end":8668.032,"text":"那我在這邊提到一個點就是說這段時間的時候我想兩岸的關係沒有處理好所以台灣這邊一定是講大陸這邊沒有放行對不對"},{"start":8669.633,"end":8671.394,"text":"二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8691.28,"end":8713.03,"text":"有沒有更積極去做這件事情?」總量也都增加你看今年二月還修法讓陸聖能夠納入健保其實這都是非常友善的措施包括他們也可以領獎助金還有他們也可以來報考臺灣的技能檢定或者是他可以來擔任研究助理或從事學習性的事情我想說我們做很多可是沒有人來的時候"},{"start":8716.292,"end":8736.824,"text":"提供更多的政策其實都沒有用所以我覺得一個大框架當中我希望教育部這邊跟陸委會這邊好好的去做一個溝通希望能夠從政策面去解決這個事情政策面要解決很大一部分是政治的友善度可能也要這邊去解決那我這邊提到一個個案這邊有一個大陸的學生"},{"start":8739.466,"end":8750.799,"text":"他一清到台灣來念了三年高中念了四年的大學我們這七年我們對於一個大陸學生來我們要投入多少的資源下去"},{"start":8752.631,"end":8771.653,"text":"市長你有沒有具體的數字?我們這個126萬人是怎麼算?因為我們平均每對每個大學生一年的投入是大概22萬8千對高中生16萬算起來他在這邊唸的七年書大概是這個數字可是你知道因為"},{"start":8772.834,"end":8795.374,"text":"兩岸關係的不好他現在沒有辦法繼續來他本來想在台灣繼續念所以我們希望教育部這邊好好的跟陸委會這邊一起解決陸生來台的問題然後另外讓他們也能夠比照我們國發會這邊提出的一個留才攬才的一個計畫好不好讓他們也能夠變成台灣增加人才的一個來源"},{"start":8796.328,"end":8825.154,"text":"我想教育部對於兩岸之間那種良性的互動跟教育文化的交流都是支持啦那我們也不斷的釋出善意可是就是對方到目前為止就是包括那個招生機構我們跟他聯繫他就是一睹不回所以說在這方面我們再努力繼續努力市長我覺得這部分可能要更加油好不好那跟陸委會這邊好好做溝通好導致先再到本辦公室來做報告好謝謝謝謝委員關心謝謝鄭正前委員時間掌握非常精確感謝"},{"start":8827.99,"end":8840.561,"text":"來 這個主委先回座蕭委主席請賴瑞榮委員好謝謝昭緯請那個劉主委請國安會劉主委"},{"start":8849.471,"end":8868.786,"text":"主委長我想我其實一直在關注這個問題因為我覺得少子化其實是國家的重大問題也是國安問題那國發會其實應該有更強的整合能量來處理這件事情我覺得這也是主委一個很好來幫台灣來幫國家處理好這事的機會我們看到這個趨勢其實是到了2070年剩1584所以"},{"start":8873.49,"end":8880.789,"text":"而這個還是比較高位數的一個那其實看來會減少到700多甚至到900零3萬我問一下主委你覺得這樣的問題嚴不嚴重"},{"start":8883.808,"end":8908.378,"text":"我認為非常嚴重尤其是特別影響到未來繳稅跟工作的勞動力會非常可怕包括消費的力道都會下滑所以我認為這個其實是國發會很重要的一個工作各部會但國發會可以扮演比較重要強大的我們看到主委你有幾個孩子我有兩個那你認為為什麼這個少子化台灣的問題會越嚴重就你的觀察跟你自己的經驗"},{"start":8910.339,"end":8926.179,"text":"我們現在看到有兩個現象一個就是這個大家找不到匹配的對象是目前調查出來的第二個是他們對於養育小孩的壓力或者是還要同時照顧父母的壓力都同時存在"},{"start":8928.861,"end":8948.866,"text":"所以我認為有三件事要做,第一個協助他養育,第二個讓他能夠結婚的人比較能夠早一點拿到社宅,或者是比較好的優惠條件租到社宅,然後第三個部分協助他解放他對養育照顧父母的壓力,尤其是很多來台北奮鬥的父母在南部他很壓力很大。"},{"start":8950.507,"end":8975.425,"text":"同樣的一個原因啦在我看來其實因為我自己有三個孩子啦同樣都是你怎麼樣去讓減輕這些年輕的夫妻或是他們本身的壓力讓他們本身如果本身有意願想要生而能夠生而敢生的這個是很重要的原因這裡面有很多面向要去處理但是我覺得這個部分一定要去突破掉不然他兩個人的生活跟他生一個孩子的生活跟生兩個孩子的生活跟生三個孩子的生活是完全不同的"},{"start":8975.845,"end":8997.62,"text":"包括生育的過程中所要產生的包括生完之後的花費包括他的教養的過程中的托育包括教育等等每個都非常的耗掉相當多的心力跟資源那如果國家在這件事情上給予他更多的支持他就比較有勇氣感去做那如果沒有的話他就會比較保守生一個就好或者是跟隨就不一定要生就有很多的選擇"},{"start":8998.28,"end":9026.875,"text":"所以我希望國發會要站在這樣的高度去協助這件事情來推我們來看日本其實也很重視這個問題日本其實已經處理這個問題一段時間了那他們也用整個高度去做處理之前岸田政府的時候也提出了這個對策那我們其實也提出來了0到6歲國家一起養我認為我們現在做的國家一起養就是你國家跟父母一起養但我認為現在至少要達到一半以上才叫一起"},{"start":9027.765,"end":9050.123,"text":"主委你現在覺得我們國家在支撐這些事情上有做到了一半嗎?我們目前是有在做了但是我們今年也增加了預算但當然預算還是卡在立法院那我自己我們有自己在做一個推估假設我們把這個力道再拉大有沒有幫助其實我們問了一下多少有幫助那這個幫助"},{"start":9051.504,"end":9076.197,"text":"估計的預算大概是五百多億起跳每一年但是如果我們希望這把配套做得好的話我們當時估了一個比較具吸引力的方案大概是一年要增加一千億左右的預算對那這些如果能夠確實來落實的話我認為會很有助於改善因為這一錢就是整個直接用在孩子上就是說我認為國家一起養是其實甚至於我認為是國家要來照顧"},{"start":9077.197,"end":9100.359,"text":"國家應該把所有的孩子當作是他的資產我們看到很多的政府都在努力日本的政府他對於孩子齁這個0到2歲一個月1.5萬日元3到高中畢業18歲一個月1萬瑞典更積極的在於他0到從幾乎是完全支撐的孩子生出來免費教育的部分甚至於這個相關的"},{"start":9101.929,"end":9123.841,"text":"這些甚至營養午餐等等就是說瑞典的一些國家當然是比較福利的國家他們幾乎是把孩子當作自己的國家的責任在幫忙在照顧那當然國情不同但是用你這樣的態度我們就稅收也不一樣對但你這樣的態度在處理的時候其實周遭包括企業包括所有人都會感受到政府在重視這件事情而且對於生兒育女是友善的是支持的"},{"start":9124.261,"end":9142.422,"text":"所以我真的希望用國外高度跟院長來支持不管是五百億或一千億我認為這樣的投入對於將來台灣的整體的競爭力有相當大的幫助主委會繼續朝這個方向來推動嗎我會朝這裡來努力也會找時間跟陳政委的討論這件事情"},{"start":9143.383,"end":9166.208,"text":"我認為至少初階要做到把0到6歲當作是國家的責任國家來養就也就是說他所出生不管是你一次給了一筆的費用讓他生完之後的這個負擔或者是他0到6歲包括他的托育的過程中包括教育過程中的時候你給予他的支持讓他經費我現在看有很多的啦你搶這個公立的都不一定搶得到"},{"start":9167.148,"end":9187.142,"text":"自立的又很貴然後你幾乎要負擔每個月要一萬多塊兩萬塊以上的費用的時候對於每一個生出來的生孩子的父母的壓力都非常沉重的那你這樣當然他更不會那這倒還不包含孩子可能半夜會給你吵醒甚至於很多的各種教養的很多問題那非常的複雜那如果你連最基本的支撐他的力量都沒有把它撐起來的話"},{"start":9187.802,"end":9210.172,"text":"那他們又怎麼有勇氣於生那剛才也包含你談到了每生一個孩子就多出一個空間出來那你的住宅有沒有辦法給予協助等等很多的桌邊配套你的時間可能必須要更充沛你如果是兩個人的話你的生活你只要上下班就可以但是你要照顧孩子你要提前一個小時把他找起來整理好吃完早餐再送他去學校這學校還是你要能夠負擔得起的學校"},{"start":9210.612,"end":9226.207,"text":"所以他有整套的方式一定要國家全力的來支持他在經費上面在制度方面給予更大的支持我認為才有辦法去有效去緩解這個問題不然就會如你們表所看的而且有可能不斷的下修不斷的惡化這會是台灣很大很大的問題"},{"start":9227.128,"end":9245.283,"text":"主委認同這樣的看法嗎?我認同我會朝這個地方我們來試著去努力我們來看一下臺灣跟其他國家比我們總先例現在是最後一名的我們跟韓國兩個都非常的對我們只比韓國好一點那日本對那日本都還在努力其實都已經有一些成效我剛剛講到日本都還已經開始在"},{"start":9246.404,"end":9262.823,"text":"為什麼日本給孩子們每個月給他錢等於他把它當作國家把當作是像他的孩子一樣到18歲前我把你當作孩子幫你父母來養這個孩子我給你相關的一些費用所以我覺得國家用這樣的態度來對待我們所有的孩子們"},{"start":9263.443,"end":9284.211,"text":"在他的特別是0到6歲要特別給予照顧0到6歲是最辛苦的時候因為他還沒有自己獨立的一些能力到6歲上國小他可能自處能力比較強一點就好一點0到6歲往往很多的家庭父母為了要照顧孩子假設生一個兩個也許兩個就已經沒辦法做雙薪了可能到了第三個那抱歉可能只能一個薪水而已了"},{"start":9284.551,"end":9304.976,"text":"所以那個絕對是非常非常的困難那政府一定要全力的去協助他在這些財政上在整個教育上面可以去做我認為才能夠解套這個問題是的所以我看到了其實你們從2016年開始政府在做我們經費已經持續增加但是我認為還是持續做我認為這件事情國家投資資源是非常有意義的"},{"start":9305.396,"end":9321.956,"text":"一來我們把外來的好的勞動力拉進來但另一方面我們自己本身的優秀的這些人力要不斷地在下一代不斷地培育出來那這樣才會讓台灣整體的競爭力更加強化好不好我希望國家把他當真的國家當作支持這個孩子是我們的責任的角度來養"},{"start":9324.716,"end":9344.202,"text":"那個計畫的部分我希望再整合一份也給我好不好我希望很快看到你跟院長溝通之後不管是500億的這樣的計畫或是1000億的計畫我希望能夠得到院長的支持那我們希望能夠有效的緩解少子化的問題有效的去讓我們優秀的下一代能夠持續的得到更多的照顧好不好"},{"start":9345.599,"end":9358.728,"text":"主委,那個報告如果你有相關的資料是不是一個月內給我一份資料好不好?好,我去約一下那個院長跟政委那你整份規劃的資料也給我一份好嗎?好,謝謝謝謝賴總委員、主委,請回座下一位質詢,請謝一鳳委員"},{"start":9395.168,"end":9409.711,"text":"我們工作人員是挑水一下。」謝謝趙偉。我想要請我們劉主委。請國會劉主委。次長。教育部張調次長。謝偉銘好。"},{"start":9422.388,"end":9438.724,"text":"主委好 市長我想請問一下就是少子化的問題怎麼解決那當然0到6歲這個部分是大家都有共識的可是怎麼解決到底在"},{"start":9439.827,"end":9456.859,"text":"地方的部分就是零到二歲目前缺少的部分有盤點嗎盤點的結果如何因為我看到在我們彰化縣各鄉鎮托嬰以及幼兒園的需求就是不一了那這個部分怎麼樣子規劃兩位誰可以講"},{"start":9462.19,"end":9479.503,"text":"謝謝委員關心其實這個整個當然是我們都會透過地方政府他們去了解地方政府的需求那根據那個地方如果有一些公共空間或者學校有一些空教室他可以來辦理這個公共化的一個幼兒園"},{"start":9480.384,"end":9505.231,"text":"但是我跟張廖次長說現在面臨的問題是有少子化問題我們在例如我們有一個鄉鎮它需要的是幼兒園那幼兒園要整合性可是它整合性的社區它本來是放在社區裡面現在社區要做長照了我們有兩塊部分要處理"},{"start":9506.751,"end":9533.419,"text":"當他要把這個就是說要把這些幼兒園集中起來就是來管理要來興建幼兒園的時候教育部可能又覺得說現在少子化啦你到底可不可以蓋幼兒園啊那所以你們教育部到底是怎麼樣子盤點這些設施的那甚至在我們204鄉鎮他們就沒有駝音的部分啊"},{"start":9533.959,"end":9560.036,"text":"那托嬰的部分要怎麼做呢?就是有鄉鎮沒有啊?還是你要集中管理還是要怎麼樣子?你總要有一個具體的長程的規劃吧?要讓所有的小朋友都有地方去嗎?如果要朝公共化的托嬰或者是幼兒園的這個政策來講是不是應該要盤點所有的設施?我們其實每個鄉鎮市都有做評估也做盤點"},{"start":9560.956,"end":9580.445,"text":"有些當然因為出生率低的關係所以它的那個設置的方式會不太一樣那我們也都希望地方政府能夠我們跟地方政府一起合作看一下怎麼樣子來解決那可能有些地方政府也有一些財政的問題我們也會補助啦比如說他可能希望整病那剛才委員就提到嘛"},{"start":9580.845,"end":9582.747,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9600.002,"end":9613.467,"text":"人家有同意啦人家就希望診病嘛是不是?您講的這個很有道理我們實際去了解實際是爸爸媽媽在送托不是鄉鎮公所所以這兩個面向讓我們多整合一下"},{"start":9615.848,"end":9642.734,"text":"我也多到你辦公室報告好不好?不是啦 因為你如果把它放在社區的話人家也要做那個就是說長照的就是那個送餐的部分嘛所以有兩個面向嘛一個是拖老一個是拖嬰那拖嬰的部分爸爸媽媽在送的時候他比較社區化會比較方便所以這一點上是不是我們再到委員辦公室備福部也一起去還有鄉鎮事公所我們大家一起談一下好不好因為現在表達沒問題的是"},{"start":9645.535,"end":9673.616,"text":"政府單位,但是真正在使用的是家長。」這個我們來衡量一下。你是調查了多少家長?你是調查了多少家長?我們在走訪的過程中說以前的經驗,我們還是很省事。對,你不能用以前的經驗嘛。這個我們有實際的了解社區。現在都已經什麼幾年了,我們從過去的經驗都不能夠符合現在實際的潮流嘛。你知道說我們的鄉鎮公所,現在它不只要處理一塊嘛。"},{"start":9674.156,"end":9698.73,"text":"不只要處理托幼,還有要處理托老的部分啊,是不是?你不能夠,你們不能夠,欸,主委,主委,為什麼我會在這裡問這個問題?這是跨部會的問題嘛,是不是?張廖次長,還有上一次你去二林看我們二林工商的,就是災後的,開密颱風災後的這個重建的工作,那對於彰化縣的,不會有差別吧?"},{"start":9699.19,"end":9700.311,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":9730.891,"end":9733.982,"text":"培育兩年留臺工作,這不是國發會跟經濟部一起的嗎?"},{"start":9739.181,"end":9764.012,"text":"有主委是嗎?那是郭部長提出來的所以不是你的?你們現在怎麼這樣子啊?主委你們現在怎麼這樣子分的那麼...郭部長大部分的事情是我們有在協助規劃啦那他那次的記者會我們沒有參與的所以我不知道他...我以為這是...對啊因為這需要跨部會啊然後今天又有勞動部又有教育部所以我才想說也順便問你啊"},{"start":9764.992,"end":9767.056,"text":"我去找,我們去找他了解,我再給你報告。」"},{"start":9775.475,"end":9796.948,"text":"那這樣子很難問下去是不是所以你不知道是加二但是我要請問你們所謂的要培養10萬個AI的工程師那到底這10萬工程師有沒有辦法留在台灣以及你們目前按照這些方案培養我看到我們勞動部"},{"start":9798.849,"end":9821.859,"text":"一一三年第一季人力需求增減的情況製造業需要兩萬三千六十八人那根據你們這樣子的A就是你們這樣子的4加2的這個2加4的計畫有沒有辦法解決我們現在勞動力缺乏的問題"},{"start":9824.097,"end":9839.383,"text":"如果就AI的部分我們目前從學校我們有兩個機制一個是學校的機制跟非學校的機制在培養AI那學校一年可以有6萬多就是科系畢業跟這個STAND學生"},{"start":9840.263,"end":9865.274,"text":"另外是透過經濟部有補助外面的教育訓練機構以及這個工研院等等都有一些教育機構那我們算出來是10萬是可以培養的夠的那勞動力的部分我們現在看到從我國安會的角度我們現在看到是兩個狀況勞動力的需求我想勞動部非常清楚但是裡面有一個叫做技術落差就是有時候我們要的焊接工可能不是"},{"start":9866.556,"end":9894.551,"text":"直接過來的外勞可以做的那這個部分我們會透過中階人才的修法來進一步的開放對於有技術性的技術工能夠再開放然後讓他們的更容易進到台灣來工作我們當然會朝這個方向來走只是我是說目前你們的規劃有沒有辦法解決我們目前在2024年第一季我們就面臨到製造業這麼大的缺口未來如果在"},{"start":9895.351,"end":9918.362,"text":"在我們到2028年的時候預估人力缺口這是國發會的吧這是國發會的吧我們預估的是總人力缺口他會切成高階人才跟勞動力那勞動力工廠來講我們請那個勞動部說明一下是,報告委員有關這個AI的這個數位轉型其實我們為了要使國內的勞動者可以因應這個數位的發展"},{"start":9923.911,"end":9944.455,"text":"所以我們其實在就業通已經有一個這個綠能淨零還有AI數位轉型的一個專區裡面有相關的資訊課程這個是提升現有勞動力的他的相關的能力我跟昭緯換次序所以我不要操時可是我必須要提一下就是我現在看到政府部門的跨部會的整合以及"},{"start":9944.855,"end":9966.976,"text":"你們跨部會的溝通協調的確看起來好像就沒有我也不知道說當我在看到就是國發會跟經濟部共同推這個二加四方案的時候我不知道說你們怎麼樣子去溝通協調這中間的問題喔好謝謝好謝謝謝一鋒委員來主委、組長請回座來下位質詢請陳超明委員"},{"start":9977.216,"end":9979.498,"text":"我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效．"},{"start":10003.592,"end":10005.338,"text":"你當然剛剛來到國華會現在少子化你感覺要怎麼改善才好"},{"start":10012.397,"end":10033.655,"text":"少子化我們現在其實我們從多頭在進行中跟您報告一下第一個我們有做市場的調查還有大數據的分析大數據的分析我們請國會做大概會到年底才會有機會出來因為涉及到一些各自法那這個分析會突破過去傳統的做法"},{"start":10034.255,"end":10056.042,"text":"那以分析來看以調查來看的話目前我們最大的第一個問題是結婚率比較低第二個結婚年齡偏晚第三個部分是想大家對育兒的壓力比較大那我們現在最能解的是育兒的壓力所以我們現在是朝育兒壓力跟這個結婚的人有沒有機會比較先拿到社宅或者是租到社宅"},{"start":10056.762,"end":10077.349,"text":"第三個部分怎麼樣幫他施壓他們因為現在小孩生得少奉養父母的壓力都有比照顧父母的壓力也比較大我們希望從這三階段來做所以今年整體編列了一千兩百多億的預算我也覺得蠻中肯的因為我今天剛剛要來以前我就問我們裡面小姐說現在的人為什麼不想結婚"},{"start":10078.609,"end":10105.441,"text":"他說養孩子很辛苦、壓力很大我看他個性很溫柔所以你重點就提出這個地方出來表示你這個調查報告是蠻準確的不是官方正式的一個報告是實際有了解啊現在說生不如死生不如死依照我們觀念說我的家不如死死的就好了那是生活的煎熬"},{"start":10106.494,"end":10133.103,"text":"這一句話生不只是這樣生的人比死的人還要少尤其現在民意代表大概天天都要去臉香看到他老人家一直過世的話真的差別很大但是我再想想這裡面大概我最資深人生其實才開始所以這個社會是整個交雜在一起的"},{"start":10134.13,"end":10155.642,"text":"那關於少子化我覺得失絕壓力但是我覺得在這個思想裡面常常沒有提到因為現在都是小那個叫小浪漫就是說只有我喜歡有什麼不可以青春不能留白他們也在逃避這種壓力一個社會結論"},{"start":10158.393,"end":10177.94,"text":"那整個中國文化裡面對家的傳統觀念很少但是我發覺這整個世界都在改變這一些我做我自己就好我不要負擔壓力大人生的青春不能留白我覺得這幾個觀念你們也要特別注意一下確確實實"},{"start":10181.017,"end":10195.869,"text":"現在我也問了很多,他說現在跟年輕人講話他不敢亂講,兒子講什麼也只能講好,不外其此上的意思,公切就這世代的觀念差距,其實現在的"},{"start":10197.33,"end":10223.537,"text":"資訊裏面差距不會很大新的觀念跟舊的觀念有時候是經驗的傳承但是現在要討好很多的選票的時候把觀念改判臺灣是沒有職員的國家我覺得真的是當總統人、當行政院長、當國會委員的職位應該提出我們臺灣人口對策的一個中心思想不要人人也贏現在說什麼壯世代我搞不懂"},{"start":10224.577,"end":10245.811,"text":"四十五歲以上叫壯世代,但是諸位,七十五歲及六十五歲是正在生產力的中心,超高齡的說65歲以上的,阿你給我省個壯世代,壯世代我就傻不,我今天要問他壯世代怎麼解釋,四十五歲到六十歲是生產力最強"},{"start":10247.012,"end":10257.392,"text":"其實現在的生物科技已經改變了65歲的人以後非常年輕的非常多我估計這裡都要去租也要去賺你看我熱"},{"start":10261.503,"end":10288.391,"text":"我的看法跟您非常接近因為現在的百歲人類也到了5500多位了那大家的身體越來越健康了那也因為這樣的關係其實勞動部也修了一個法令鼓勵中高齡的人回來就業因為現在人真的越來越年輕那最近的修法退休也不一定限定在65歲對對對好人事室的那個副副主委"},{"start":10289.531,"end":10291.993,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10309.053,"end":10324.015,"text":"不強迫退休可以協商來我今天也剛剛碰到一個人跟我存強我們的公務人員60歲達到退休的年齡你們說不准留下來要跟我退但是我跟人事"},{"start":10325.472,"end":10349.187,"text":"那個副處長我告訴你我會寫公共行政以前為什麼會逼著退是要給年輕的上來接這個公務人員的位置現在公務人員要經過考試考試的時候現在不一定少子化了就會跟大學一樣要來進入公務體系的不一定多"},{"start":10350.288,"end":10360.223,"text":"而且女生會特別多我跟你講這個變化實在所以在這裏面有一個傳承這個傳承公務系統很重要"},{"start":10361.823,"end":10385.206,"text":"你到行政公所去看一下那年輕進來的話大家要轉也沒有經驗什麼東西都不敢動所以我覺得公務人員如果能跟機關大家協調好可以說你到哪裡或是協調好應用這個已經很成熟有基本概念的公務人員對我們公務人員的效率推進是幫忙很大"},{"start":10386.347,"end":10415.256,"text":"觀念改一下時代不一樣不是年輕人就更好吃我們希望他成長但是還有老一代現在的年輕人還在拍槓我選舉的人不能講這種話我是把我觀念跟你講你看法怎麼樣?謝謝委員的指教這個的確這個年齡的延後這是一個目前可能未來可能會面臨的議題那就值得去深思了能不能留任?"},{"start":10418.281,"end":10443.934,"text":"請說你們發了一張公文去說不能認領跟我離開您提的是公務人員因為公務人員的退休令、借領的退休令是規定在公務人員的退休福氣法裡面在你們現在修改的法令有沒有告發公務人員因為公務人員法令啊這個退休法令在考試院所以我們你告訴我聽不清楚你告訴我英文比較不英文"},{"start":10444.634,"end":10456.53,"text":"因為退休的年齡是法令俱全公務員當然有公務人員的法但是還是依照母法為基準到底65歲屆齡的公務人員能不能繼續留在公務機關"},{"start":10460.734,"end":10471.759,"text":"如果按照要保留公務人員的身份,既有公務人員身份,因為退服法就規定...當然這台車全車子,你好好思考這幾個問題。我剛才說我早上跟我陳情我才問你。但是,那個...劉書蕾"},{"start":10479.778,"end":10497.112,"text":"人不行的,你看他血肝,退出來不工作的時候很容易這樣,我比了手,他退出下來你給他有專業,他的精神反而更好更強壯,你說老人肢胎症就是得出的太陽,不知道要做什麼,"},{"start":10498.913,"end":10514.562,"text":"保時中日狠狠頓頓的我感覺你這個成績60幾位現在的健康現在生物科技現在醫療都有在進步不應該限制這個可以給他一個充分發揮我覺得這樣子他們反而更健康"},{"start":10518.504,"end":10533.712,"text":"你看美國總統真沒做什麼事情多聰明他真有事情做都很好我建議這幾點然後在留才攬才方面尤其AI你不要台灣培養的人才給外人在用你們永遠繼續做一點"},{"start":10535.593,"end":10553.966,"text":"那些有錢的國家他那些印鈔票的國家把臺灣的人才抓高高只要去用來限制我們各種發展且即現在是競爭的啦大家在勝利要贏大家競爭要贏無所不用其極不要我們假裝人力道德"},{"start":10554.927,"end":10568.775,"text":"我告訴你一件事,沒有台灣,包括產農產業,高科技業可能在這邊你們滋好很快,說不定會消失。謝謝第二次安寧。好,謝謝委員,感謝。謝謝陳昌平委員。下一位質詢請楊秋衣委員。"},{"start":10586.477,"end":10590.359,"text":"謝謝主席 本席想邀請主委跟勞動部一起"},{"start":10603.392,"end":10629.114,"text":"好謝謝主委我們看到我們在105年執行我們我國少子化的這個對策計畫到現在從最起初的105年的200億到我們看到你114年的預算是1177億但是呢你錢越多你的生育率不僅是逐年下降"},{"start":10629.935,"end":10645.911,"text":"而且在CIA所公布五月份他所公布美國中情局他公布的2024年全球生育率的預測當中嚇一跳我們竟然是世界最後一名你看到這個世界最後一名"},{"start":10647.099,"end":10648.499,"text":"你的心理作何感想?"},{"start":10668.064,"end":10693.485,"text":"都是因為不育證經過補助而生下來的所以錢花的還是有那包括我們0到2歲0到6歲國家一起養其實都讓年輕人感覺到他有釋壓的情緒這個是我們從200億到明年度你編列的1177億你的過程努力但是你的答案是世界最危險的怎麼辦"},{"start":10696.96,"end":10709.175,"text":"怎麼辦?如果你現在的回答只是告訴我我們現在的做法是什麼但是你的答案是全世界最後一名所以我本席不希望聽到這些本席要聽到你精進的方案"},{"start":10713.8,"end":10736.397,"text":"因為錢不斷地在增加那你現在的方式有沒有調整的空間怎麼樣去鼓勵請做說明我們其實10月1號陳時中政委召集的各部會也包括國安會我們探討的這件事那10月17號在國家發展委員會有沒有方案出來你也談到這些事情有沒有方案你從200億到明年度預估將近1200億有沒有方案"},{"start":10741.741,"end":10760.546,"text":"方案是有一部分已經在今年的預算裡面提出來就是一些補助的增加包括我們最近也會修法包括一些法令的鬆綁但是我們希望有更大的改變所以我們在那個會議裡面我們希望三個月後我們在會議裡面大家再來探討一次"},{"start":10763.187,"end":10779.473,"text":"從什麼時候的三個月本席希望聽到方案因為我們即將要審預算要知道這筆預算能不能花在有效的效能所以這一個提問本席請問你們的整體方案什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":10780.755,"end":10782.776,"text":"多久時間?實施中所以你的答案是全世界最後一名所以本期具體建議"},{"start":10802.06,"end":10822.488,"text":"你去盤點主委你去盤點你現在最後一年你的答案也是世界最後一名所以趁著還有機會你到底你的預算在重議的時候你的預算、你的方案要怎麼樣去精進你三個月內給本席好不好我三個月給你但是我也跟你報告"},{"start":10825.709,"end":10834.122,"text":"我們有探討很多事情其實不是其實這個不歸我的責任但是我主動找了院長探討我們也提了幾個方案出來那這裡面需要到500億到1000億左右的預算你是我們國發會的主委"},{"start":10840.117,"end":10852.505,"text":"拿出你的gas去提出方案預算怎麼分配這是我們要看到的好不好三個月內將你的方案給本席所以我們實質討論勞動部在這裡全台有90%是屬於中小企業那麼彈性工時的部分勞動部你們現在的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":10868.293,"end":10892.279,"text":"勞動部你們現在的作為方向是怎麼樣呢?報告委員其實我們現在依照勞動基準法跟我們的性別平等工作法我們現在在法令裡面就有一些可以實施彈性工作時間的一些措施跟空間那不管是彈性工時又或者是可以調整上下班又或者是有一些彈性的請假"},{"start":10893.659,"end":10913.697,"text":"這些在勞動法規裡面都允許可以去做一些安排。」但是落實沒有辦法落實所以為什麼請國發會主委以及你同步大家互相橫向去聯繫因為我再次強調90%都是屬於中小企業那麼同時我們要顧了國家的產業"},{"start":10914.838,"end":10939.186,"text":"那當然最重要現在最傷腦筋的全世界生育最後一名這個問題一年度要花一千多億在這樣的情況之下我們的橫向聯繫到底要怎麼樣去精進這是本席在跟你討論的這個議案所以我們也希望因為一方面要國家發展二方面不敢得罪雇主然後呢"},{"start":10940.166,"end":10943.768,"text":"又要趕快要讓他們可以有彈性共識這個功課是很要有智慧的所以我把這個功課拋出去請國發會跟勞動部你們好好去研討要怎麼樣能夠去落實所以我拋出一個議題國發會主委你是不是可以如果沒有領頭羊不可能你是不是可以請我們的政府單位跟國營企業"},{"start":10969.024,"end":10994.641,"text":"來當領頭羊來做事行的彈性工時可行性。」這個我會跟相關國營事業的組織單位我們會來討論看看這跟你報告你國家帶著走人家就願意你國家自己都不做那當然就到目前為止你到最後一億兩這個一千兩百億花完了還是全世界最後一名"},{"start":10995.781,"end":11001.484,"text":"這個是我們不願意看到的所以是不是我想了一直想我們是不是由我們的國營事業跟我們的行政政府部門率頭來示範嘛好不好我來跟那個向經濟部這些單位來討論對這樣就對了那你多久時間可以告訴我可跟不可你們率先來示範嘛"},{"start":11018.609,"end":11019.39,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11035.803,"end":11046.786,"text":"這個70年你慢了三個月公布但是總是公布了那你告訴我們少子化跟高齡化的現象呢你告訴我們說預估2070年我國總人口將比2024年減少844萬人換句話說到了2070年我們從2300萬人會降到1500萬人所以主委在這樣子的數字告訴我們你要怎麼樣朝向"},{"start":11064.27,"end":11082.288,"text":"少子化、勞動力、經濟產業、財政受資尤其是我們的醫療、照務這些面向做一個橫向整體性的一個研討這個是務必要做的我已經看到2070年我們的人口剩下1500萬人這怎麼辦呢"},{"start":11085.855,"end":11110.112,"text":"請做說明這個部分我們已經整理了各種的影響因素以後我們在陳政委的會議裡面有特別提出來給各部會希望他們針對這些議題可能的傷害跟這個影響進行一定傷害沒有人什麼都不用講了所以請教主委你們在做你的KPI指數什麼時間點可以提出你們的方案"},{"start":11110.911,"end":11126.479,"text":"這個我這樣子好不好我還是得跟陳政委去討論我跟陳政委討論之後再跟您回報你初步三個月去提出一個你們的草案方案我們繼續討論好不好這個我還是要爭得陳政委的同意所以你趕快去討論好不好這個很重要到了2070年我們剩下1500萬人這很緊張欸這怎麼辦最後一分鐘"},{"start":11137.184,"end":11138.285,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11158.631,"end":11174.18,"text":"這個2017年的時候有外國人才專法實施所以你的人數到目前有增加但是我們看到目前的產業必須要加入AI的這些我們必須要跟世界接軌所以我要求你我要求你你將你將跨部會去盤點我們產業人才的缺口你去延攬國際的人才因為"},{"start":11183.264,"end":11208.312,"text":"近鄰觀光加注一個項目近鄰人才這是勢在必行所以如果依照你目前的步驟是沒有辦法吻合我們所必要國家發展所必要的這些人才以及跟世界接軌你是不是我把這個功課給你你去研討把那個方案告訴我們好不好好啊沒問題啊我們其實有資料啦那我把這個資料整理給你嘛來多久時間可以給本席"},{"start":11212.509,"end":11214.21,"text":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政策競爭力比較。"},{"start":11241.279,"end":11252.147,"text":"謝謝主席,請國安會的劉主委所以我們看第一個數據第一個數據是你們發布是針對2023的總生意率加上0.865那僅高於韓國0.72那針對2023對不對是的然後這個我們看一下美國的數據美國的數據你看下一張"},{"start":11266.192,"end":11284.907,"text":"美國數據台灣已經低於韓國生育率變成全世界倒數第一名所有的國家裡面有227所以再回到上一頁你現在所提的五面向對策目前正在實施你明年二月又要提解方"},{"start":11285.933,"end":11313.291,"text":"如果這些現在的五方五面向對策有效的話他不會變成那麼一個嚴峻的一個態勢就是說我們是227個國家裡面我們聲譽是倒數第一是聲譽力全世界最低的國家這是不是一個不可逆的趨勢目前來看其實要可逆是有點難度了我們希望先守住現在會永遠的倒數第一名對不對是的"},{"start":11314.858,"end":11315.279,"text":"你對策沒有對政下要啊"},{"start":11320.936,"end":11347.635,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們現在最大的困難其實還是在大家的結婚慾望比較低我們必須先解掉這一段否則會很困難為什麼結婚慾望比較低呢?就是因為低薪嘛你低薪代表說你可自備所得這個減少你就不敢去養兒育女嘛OK?包括物價的膨脹生活所得的生活支出大幅提高包括物價的上漲包括高房價"},{"start":11348.931,"end":11349.852,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11365.034,"end":11386.465,"text":"所以我們一直在探討怎麼樣讓0到6歲的這個國家一起養的政策更能夠吻合市場的需求當然這需要大量的預算所以我們還是就像我之前報告我們需要找裁員你知道嗎日本曾經是最早進入超高齡這個社會的國家但他們已經慢慢的可逆了"},{"start":11387.205,"end":11416.054,"text":"他們生意力有提高了嗎?他們本來可逆是回到了1.4但是又降回到1.2疫情的期間但最起碼他們已經控制這個惡化的狀況嘛所以他們內閣裡面有個少子化部嘛有個少子化大臣對,他有一個大臣是內閣的閣員閣員相當於一個部長部長有實權、有預算、有能力去執行少子化的相關的對策那我目前的狀況是由政委"},{"start":11417.273,"end":11432.253,"text":"政委是協調各部會的執行狀況做政策的規劃的協調政委也不需要來立法院備詢不管是院會也是委員會他的執行狀況如何我們沒有辦法透過國會的監督"},{"start":11434.065,"end":11448.545,"text":"所以為什麼你必須要去參考其他國家是不是要成立一個專責的少子化對策部或少子化對策委員會有一個專任的部長來接受這個國會的監督編列預算、充實能力"},{"start":11450.331,"end":11473.751,"text":"對政下要把青年的地心問題解決可自備所得提高降低房價降低這個生活開支他們才有這個意願去生才有能力去養所以我覺得你現在明年二月你還要邀集各部會明年二月提解方這五面像是不是正在做的事情"},{"start":11475.199,"end":11494.329,"text":"都在做事情嘛。」好那我想這個您的建議我也是會會把這個跟院長報告看看他對這件事有什麼樣的才識你是幕僚機關你應該提出解方不是去問院長因為院長一定會回問你你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":11495.558,"end":11517.567,"text":"你不能去問院長你是幕僚的首長沒錯所以這部分應該你要提出解方所以我剛剛現在對政效要問題在哪裡針對問題解決問題我們再看一下這女性就業的狀況我們20到24歲的女性勞動參與率比較低的原因是因為她就學年數的關係大家念念就有所25歲到29歲女性勞參與率是這個大概是鄰國之冠到90%"},{"start":11524.397,"end":11551.025,"text":"但是另外呢到40歲以上因為結婚的關係因為生育的關係他就沒有辦法再投入返回職場不像其他的國家日本、南韓跟美國他的重返職場的比例比台灣高太多了你看台灣到5.365歲以上然後50到都比其他每一個年齡世代都比韓國、日本還低"},{"start":11553.587,"end":11557.846,"text":"所以為什麼女性沒有辦法在這個結婚育兒之後重返職場"},{"start":11559.384,"end":11575.397,"text":"這個要去探討原因有這個這兩個問題其實我們有兩個兩個比例都比較低一個是中高齡的就業就業比例比較低第一個婦女的這個勞參率比較低這個我們都有請跟勞動部討論你講到這個引髮族或者是退休的狀況我們看最後一個表勞動參與率的年齡別"},{"start":11584.209,"end":11603.332,"text":"你看一下我們這個25歲到49歲年齡有八成的勞動參與率跟國際相比毫不遜色但是50歲以上呢所謂壯世代我們今天討論壯世代50到64歲這個基本上體力上都沒有問題他的勞參與率是階梯式的雪崩式的下降"},{"start":11604.878,"end":11614.386,"text":"你要怎麼去解決這個問題?怎辦二度就業者、銀髮族、銀髮族能夠同心在導入職場?這需要政策去引導"},{"start":11615.894,"end":11634.883,"text":"對這個部分也許我不知道勞動部是不是可以來說明一下因為勞動部針對婦女跟中高齡都有一個相當的政策我這沒有那麼多時間我只是把這個問題提出來我希望你做一個協調單位你要跟院長講你也要跟這個陳時中政委講這部分非常重要因為這個講到這個缺工的問題"},{"start":11639.451,"end":11663.268,"text":"人力航空部今年4月缺工110萬左右我們國人到海外去工作人數將近50萬中國最多美國居次然後去東南亞鄰國包括日本、臺灣工作也多包括南韓也吸引臺灣留學生挖走了我們很多的白領跟知識精英"},{"start":11664.734,"end":11692.504,"text":"讓我們相對的政策要吸引其他國家的高階人才、白領人才到台灣來反而這個效果有限這問題到底是出現在哪裡你的目標是2030年要40萬人才攬才目標捏40萬捏那目前的結果是怎麼樣2024還有6年你要達40萬攬才的目標捏到底能不能達成呢"},{"start":11694.706,"end":11717.095,"text":"目前至少我們現在是有訂定的相當的策略我們也分配到不同的任務裡面去以目前來看的話我們最大的來源還是在這個喬外森在這邊念學的這是最大來源第二個部分是我跟您報告我們現在開始進行到海外攬才的部分連40萬目標我覺得這個很拚另外高階專業人才你門檻要16萬"},{"start":11723.735,"end":11739.364,"text":"你要配合他久居的福利的這些資源也沒有配套措施所以我覺得你要模仿或者學其他國家的做法把司法的門檻能夠降低我們現在已經開始在調整了我有時間再跟你請教因為這個問題很重要我再給我10分鐘我也講不完但是我要遵守時間的規律這個招委要以身作則謝謝委員"},{"start":11757.017,"end":11760.018,"text":"現在請羅志強委員執行主席有請國發會主委羅委員好"},{"start":11780.256,"end":11797.302,"text":"主委好看到國發會公布的人口推估我們在明年進入超高齡社會那人口紅利在2028年結束那一個很驚人的數字就2070年人口將剩下1497萬較現今大減844萬那原本3.6名的青壯人口撫養一名老年人口那會減少為每一名青壯"},{"start":11810.126,"end":11838.147,"text":"人口讓他撫養一名老人。」那我想請教你有沒有那個馬總統曾經在執政的時候說過一句話有沒有聽過叫少子化是國安問題有聽說你認同嗎我認同對非常嚴重那我們講少子化我們就要從新生兒人數開始說那實際上從2000年的30.7萬一路下滑那到去年剩下多少"},{"start":11839.989,"end":11864.394,"text":"十三年十三萬五你知道這一路下滑趨勢只有在一個時段它曾經有反轉往上走是哪一個年代是上一個農年十二年前對就是再次又下來了對好跟你講2010年那個時候這個我們的出生的人口是到了16萬6"},{"start":11867.162,"end":11888.137,"text":"到2012年反轉為22.9萬到2015年也還有21.3萬所以換言之這整個過去這20年的人口下滑的趨勢只有在這個階段它是有反轉的那我就想請教您請教您事實上你剛剛講農年"},{"start":11890.118,"end":11909.165,"text":"開始反轉那一年是農年嘛但是今年農年一到八月出生的寶寶數竟然比去年同期還少農寶寶比兔寶寶還少連農年效應都失去了請問主委那這些年投入預算那麼多為什麼出生人口越來越少不見成效呢"},{"start":11912.165,"end":11923.5,"text":"這個問題其實我們從另外一個角度來看請委員看一下我們去年13萬5裡面有一萬多個是因為不孕症的關係經過補助而生下來的那"},{"start":11925.703,"end":11953.899,"text":"我想委員也認同一件事我們幫助年輕人在養育小孩上紓壓是合理的是有效果的那這些都是資金的投入主委我告訴你您可以明示我們那些資金的投入是錯的那我願意來調整我來告訴你鐵針針事實擺在眼前你不用推給委員今天鐵針針事實就是今天我們民進黨政府上來之後你不斷地要改變少子化"},{"start":11955.066,"end":11968.912,"text":"你可以講100個你做得很棒的地方但你改變不了一個事實啊就是從馬政府時候的將近22萬人、21萬人掉到現在剩13萬了接近腰斬了有不過8年多的時間了"},{"start":11970.66,"end":11987.876,"text":"但為什麼當時國民黨執政的時候喊出所謂的把國安就是少子化當作國安問題然後做出很多的措施能夠去反轉這個人口下跌的少子化這個趨勢我這時候在當總統府副秘書長抱歉"},{"start":11988.797,"end":12018.206,"text":"我經常在陪馬總統在開這個所謂的國安少子化的國安的研究對策會議馬總統是多麼重視這件事所以他技術非常多他是把這件事當一件重要的事來做可是我再舉個數字啊賴總統仍然要推出生生不息的政策嘛說要在2030年總生育率回到1.4可是你知道這個生生不息政策是在行政院長那一題提出來的2017年總生育率是多少"},{"start":12020.879,"end":12046.101,"text":"1.13去年多少降到0.87不是我對賴清德當總統沒信心啊他當院長他喊的1.4我只看到越來越掉掉越來越多掉到0.87那於2013年剩下沒多少時間拜託再努力一點好不好好謝謝謝謝好謝謝羅志祥委員來主委先請回座下一位請陳金輝委員"},{"start":12054.905,"end":12056.107,"text":"主席互相請國發會還有衛福部衛福部我們這個首長"},{"start":12066.284,"end":12084.965,"text":"陳委員早剛剛已經聽了許多委員發表他們的意見那對我來說我也是少子化的最大受害者因為我是婦產科醫師嘛以前我們一個晚上可能起來很多次有時候兩間三間產房同時在節省現在我們可以睡得很好"},{"start":12085.706,"end":12103.158,"text":"但是我有看到你們又確定要再展延一年可是你們也發布了最新的人口報告請問你們有想過如果小子化已經是無可逆轉因為從人的人口報告看起來就是這樣子你這個計畫是不是乾脆要把它常態化?"},{"start":12107.185,"end":12127.566,"text":"全委員你指的是人口的公佈還是人口計畫?人口的公佈你前陣子人口的公佈就代表少子化這件事情已經沒有辦法逆轉了是嗎?是的我們的確現在要逆轉很困難那的確我們的確您有我們有討論到準備"},{"start":12128.647,"end":12151.349,"text":"做這件事情把它變成常態化所以我們現在有在研議一個常態化的做法跟人力需求我們會抱怨來做這個事因為它必須更密集的不能兩年一次我也幫您稍微回答一下剛有一位委員問您的問題說到說因為年輕人低薪不敢結婚這是錯的"},{"start":12153.215,"end":12174.644,"text":"經過許許多多的調查,現在的年輕人並沒有把婚姻視為人生的一個選項。這點你同意嗎?根據我們的調查的確是,其中最大的因素當然是他沒有覺得遇到他想要結婚的對象,現在是比重最高的。That's why 發生一個事情,25到29歲的未婚率將近八成,其實9.3那30到34歲有到52.5"},{"start":12178.886,"end":12198.952,"text":"那最大的原因就是你講的就是他對婚姻沒有那麼強烈然後也沒有找到他合適的對象所以我們等一下討論的事情要以兩個目標為核心第一個就是願意生的人你要讓他多生嘛你要讓他生完第一個想要再生第二個想要再生第三個另外一個就是"},{"start":12200.257,"end":12223.816,"text":"與我們相關的人工生殖法他願意生的假使他沒有結婚你也希望可以幫助他再來對所以這兩個是我們等一下討論的重點好既然他都願意生了我們不管是用科學的方法協助他生育或者是我們鼓勵他有incentive讓他願意生完一個再多生兩個我們來看一下你現在編的預算"},{"start":12226.187,"end":12247.155,"text":"為什麼是越編越少呢?這個擴大育兒津貼你看113年度、114年度一般人民看到不是會覺得說我們勤領的金額變少了所以更不敢生小孩嗎?"},{"start":12248.306,"end":12275.372,"text":"公務員報告在對於每一個兒童的部分的補助金額是只有上升沒有下降那我們對於預算的推估是根據每一年實際上出生數的部分來推估的總額所以可能因為這樣的關係所以預算總額看起來沒有像前一個年度這麼多好那下一張我想問一下這邊你們把擴大公共化托育的補助"},{"start":12276.741,"end":12288.996,"text":"中央越來越少地方越來越多的原因為何?因為少子化是一個國安議題沒有道理中央是越變越少地方是越變越多啊不是應該要全國一起動起來嗎?"},{"start":12293.082,"end":12308.61,"text":"公文報告這個對於公共托育的部分事實上中央的部分事實上托育金額的補助也是在即使是今年也比往年也都有提高所以在金額的部分是應該是不會降低的"},{"start":12309.23,"end":12322.645,"text":"那特別預算的部分這邊所看到的委員指的是是對於這個去佈建公共托育場所的金額那這個部分的話是中央跟地方分別來分攤是那我講一個比較具體的建議主席一分鐘謝謝"},{"start":12325.868,"end":12351.1,"text":"我希望你們可以把托嬰、托育還有零托這件事都可以常態化因為這已經無可逆轉了在這邊給你看一下有58.1%的家庭都是雙薪家庭尤其是學前兒童的家庭所以目前的核心小家庭他其實是缺乏長輩同住資源所以你出去小吃攤你會看到這樣子的狀況我希望未來你可以整合教育部、衛福部"},{"start":12352.501,"end":12376.56,"text":"可以讓這些雙薪家庭都可以無後顧之憂。」好嗎?謝謝。好,謝謝陳金輝委員。主委,先回座。我們上午諮詢到在場委員,在場委員諮詢到蔡玉玉委員,諮詢完之後我們會休息。休息到下午兩點才會繼續開會。下回諮詢請賴慧維委員。"},{"start":12382.623,"end":12389.493,"text":"謝謝主席我們請國科會主委還有教育部張廖次長請國發會劉主委教育部張廖次長"},{"start":12394.672,"end":12413.206,"text":"賴委員好是,處長我想就是從剛才幾位委員的一個質詢內容裡頭我們來聽這個台灣的生育率會不會越來越少還是有可能緩談回升顯然你給的這個答案是非常的一個精準就是說"},{"start":12414.106,"end":12425.683,"text":"你認為就是不可逆會越來越少那還有在這個207年年你甚至就是說大膽臆測我們的人口數只會剩下1500萬是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":12429.331,"end":12448.674,"text":"不是這樣的意思我們其實現在用現在的狀況來推估2070年如果我們不去改善的話會持續的惡化那我們現在希望兩部曲第一部先能夠守住現在的出生的狀態然後下一部才來看怎麼提升"},{"start":12449.595,"end":12461.663,"text":"大概我們朝這兩個方向來走能守住其實以國際情勢來看的話其實幾乎我們看全球趨勢每個國家都是會倒下的現象從少子化就是這個子女對策的一個計畫裡頭我們已經是從107年到114年了就等於是說小英總統在105年就職的第二年他就開始就是說已經知道了這個少子少子女這個"},{"start":12477.694,"end":12502.026,"text":"這個計畫的一個對策的計畫一直在提出來了顯然我們還是擋不住顯然還是擋不住所以是不是有比較好的當然就是說你的報告裡頭你也講到了這個是其實是一個多元面向的一個問題你必須要就是跨部會的來解決那當然少子化的一個衝擊我覺得整個因應的方式我們要想得更廣"},{"start":12503.507,"end":12530.717,"text":"所以我在這裡就是部長那個指委你請回我就針對的教育的問題跟次長來做一個探討少子化的衝擊這個其實我想從這個教育的一個面向來跟次長做一個探討就是113年學年度就是即將停招的國小他有18所那這個是教育史上最多的分布在七個縣市其中以台南、南投、屏東"},{"start":12531.537,"end":12545.323,"text":"澎湖是重災區,臺南更是重中之重,臺南有即將停辦四個國小的分校,其中這四所分校有兩所分校,其實就在本席的選區裡頭。在這裡要請教次長,就是說"},{"start":12549.965,"end":12569.562,"text":"現在台南市政府教育局他已經去尋求跨校的一個合作所謂跨校的合作當然次長你非常的清楚就是主辦的學校跟就是跨校的一個學校這個已經實施了四年了可是還是不可逆你看還是關掉了這麼多的一個分校"},{"start":12570.262,"end":12599.502,"text":"那事實上就是說有什麼樣的一個互補的一個資源互補的一個資源可以去因應少子化的一個資源有限帶來的一個挑戰讓我們學生可以獲得更好的一個品質在少子化的一個衝擊裡頭我在特別的跟次長做一個探討你看在第8條裡頭他說學校應該是在每年的4月15號一估學生的學年度然後"},{"start":12600.622,"end":12622.68,"text":"辦理下列的一個招生那我現在就是合併學校的就是臺南市教育局他就說30人以下的那個學校他就是必須要跨校了那我們看到了就是這些併校或是會校教育部是不是可以提供你們有什麼相對的因應的措施"},{"start":12623.578,"end":12642.17,"text":"我想我們因為高中以下大概包括國中小這些他如果要停辦他會有一個規定有一個準則去年大概有修了那這個地方應該也都是經過專案的評估有一些公聽會然後教審會這個程序他才會去合併或者是停辦"},{"start":12643.131,"end":12645.873,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":12660.245,"end":12675.996,"text":"如果是真的廢校他還是會有一些學生我們會提供學生交通或住宿的相關的一些市長我想就是說我們快速因為時間有限不管是就近入學還是區域入學還是自由入學"},{"start":12677.077,"end":12693.162,"text":"其實本席在這裡就是說要特別提出來就是一個實驗學校你把它整合起來就是一個實驗的學校不然我們實在不敢想像就是說所以委員講得很好實驗教育這部分我們其實會考就是說它廢校之後它其實可以再"},{"start":12694.714,"end":12717.208,"text":"讓一些有民間那個想要辦實驗教育他可以來附辦那是不是應該更大區域的一個更大規模的一個實驗學校的一個那個區域當然他就沒有學區的限制啦對實驗教育對沒問題有關你如果需要這個資料我們其實最近也在討論啦好市長是不是把這些計畫提供給本席好謝謝你的關心謝謝賴會委員市長請回座下一位質詢請羅美玲委員"},{"start":12732.947,"end":12734.552,"text":"謝謝主席,有請勞發署黃麗玉副署長"},{"start":12743.393,"end":12766.014,"text":"委員好副署長好副署長為了這個充裕國內的人力缺口我國做出了很多推出了很多這個留才攬才的政策那當然其中包含了延展僑外生留台工作那現行僑外生留台工作可以經過三個管道一個就是一般申請一般工作的許可那再來還有僑外生評點制跟這個"},{"start":12767.655,"end":12797.129,"text":"中介技術人力申請留才工作。」那像這三個管道其實它都有門檻有條件甚至有工作類別的這個限定喔那可是我們為了要擴大留才所以呢這些門檻條件其實我們有看到都是逐步在鬆綁當中那甚至呢我們勞動部呢要推出這個喬外森的個人工作許可那這個部分是很多喬外森所關心的大家都問說什麼時候我們準備來推出呢請問他的期程"},{"start":12798.3,"end":12805.945,"text":"是謝謝委員的關心那有關喬惠生的部分基本上我們也是逐次一直在鬆綁包括今年我們也把他這個"},{"start":12807.392,"end":12828.725,"text":"人數的上限也刪除了就是希望透過這個相關的機制可以讓僑外生盡量留台那至於個人式工作許可呢是我們一個比較長的目標那我們最近呢正在研擬草案我們希望在今年的年底能夠提出這個僑外生個人式工作許可的修法年底的時候可以推出來是不是"},{"start":12829.885,"end":12845.631,"text":"要預計要修正這個就業服務法 會在裡面 年底準備要來修這個就業服務法那再來還有一點我剛有提到就是說我們前面所提到的現有的這個三個管道其實他是有條件有門檻有工作類別的這個限定那我想請問一下"},{"start":12847.852,"end":12870.409,"text":"喬外申要申請個人工作許可,他有什麼需要什麼樣的一個資格、什麼樣的條件嗎?我們有設什麼樣的門檻嗎?好,大家都在問說到底我們這個個人工作許可的內容是什麼?跟委員報告,基本上個人是工作許可從他的本行,他當時候的意旨就是說他是不需要有一定雇主的"},{"start":12870.865,"end":12884.323,"text":"也就是說他是一個開放式的一個工作許可他不限業別也不限業別是他是open的那所以所有的僑外生都可以申請個人工作許可的意思嗎是他只要是在臺畢業就"},{"start":12886.085,"end":12903.055,"text":"就業然後畢業所以副署長您的意思就是說我們前面所提到的一般工作許可評點至中階技術人力的這些這些申請的這些這些管道其實會退場的意思嗎?之後大家都可以用個人工作許可"},{"start":12904.667,"end":12929.763,"text":"這對僑外生的部分?報告委員基本上我們是多元管道留才所以我們的措施會盡量的大概是多元並行那個人式工作許可主要是否應屆畢業的否應屆畢業的所以是應屆畢業的才能夠申請個人工作許可這部分可以講得比較清楚一點嗎?報告委員因為我們有一些草案需要跟相關的機關團體還要再進一步的溝通"},{"start":12931.924,"end":12944.699,"text":"所以目前我們對於這些是不是還要進一步設限或者是有這樣的條件可能我們還需要再有一些討論那如果我們有進一步的規劃是不是容許我們再到委員辦公室跟您說明"},{"start":12946.781,"end":12969.069,"text":"年底準備要來修舊福法可是還有很多細節還需要討論所以還不知道所以這就是喬外申的疑問因為到目前為止當然非常的開心說我們行政單位準備也來推出這個個人工作許可可是又覺得說怎麼好像還沒有很清楚的說明因為大家都在期待嘛"},{"start":12969.369,"end":12993.692,"text":"所以現在已經留在臺灣工作的這些橋外生已經有工作了其實已經不適用的意識所以只有針對這個應屆的畢業生才適用這目前看到的是這一點反正它就是一個沒有門檻沒有工作類別我們就可以讓他們投入所有的工作職場的意思就是這樣子"},{"start":12994.933,"end":13023.695,"text":"委員因為這個基本上還是涉及到這個工作所以我想我們還是會找可能會邀國發會還有相關的部會進一步的針對細節的部分做一些討論我們的目的其實都是為了留下來那我是想說如果有比較清楚的內容跟方向的話我希望老發署可以到本席辦公室來做一個說明OK好以上謝謝謝謝委員非常謝謝羅美玲委員來副市長請回座下一位質詢請陳培宇委員"},{"start":13031.656,"end":13034.057,"text":"好謝謝主席有請國發會主委還有勞動部國發會有主委勞動部來處長勞動部來副組長陳偉華"},{"start":13045.916,"end":13061.522,"text":"好,諸位好。我要想快速看一下你們的報告裡面,其實你們提到關於AI產業化、產業AI化,其實各個部會該負責的業務我們在業務報告裡面有看見,但是我們覺得比較擔心的是看見勞動部的部分報告比較少,到底從勞工這一端"},{"start":13063.042,"end":13081.185,"text":"勞動部有沒有積極地開始跟很多勞工溝通相關團體溝通他們的工作或是他們目前產業狀態他們是必須要積極導入AI或者是勞工的工作可能被勞工取代於是需要政府部門在增能、執訓方面的協助我們看到相關業務的分工目前是這樣"},{"start":13081.966,"end":13104.934,"text":"那我猜想國發會跟勞動部應該已經有開始積極討論但是我時間有限可不可以快速請主委或者是勞動部這邊回應一下目前我們對於勞工這邊相關的協助或者是到底哪些產業需要導入AI而且是什麼樣程度的AI導入我們目前在相關業務報告裡面其實沒有看到太仔細的內容是謝謝委員的關心我想很簡要的說明"},{"start":13105.393,"end":13126.048,"text":"基本上本部配合AI行動計畫2.0還有產業發展所需要的AI技能事實上我們在1、1、2年已經投入大概3億3千多萬辦理了AI大數據的人才養成、深度學習等相關課程來到了380班訓練1萬1千多人、就業率也高達8成那在今年9月我們又持續投入了大概3億多"},{"start":13127.028,"end":13135.95,"text":"也開辦了380班訓練1萬多人那這個AI人才訓練的班別包括青年職業訓練、職業者﹗聽起來你們是有一些進度的人我打斷但是你們在開這些課程的同時是不是也有積極的收集相關勞工的訊息跟回饋他們有沒有有沒有真的在這些課程當中被增能或者是回到產業現場因為AI的變化真的太快了從之前跟主委請教"},{"start":13151.354,"end":13178.342,"text":"從AI到現在其實不過半年整個產業的進展非常的快那我這邊想要建議勞動部跟國發會這邊是不是應該更加積極以勞動部的角色增進相關勞工的知能也好或者是當這些AI的技術導入產業它對相關產業的衝擊我認為國發會應該更有角色去協助勞動部看見這個面向的困境還有做出相對的因應是這邊可不可以請主委回應一下"},{"start":13180.492,"end":13193.211,"text":"好的,這個部分我們會跟相關部會來討論一下,看怎麼樣讓勞工可以盡早地適應到未來的變化,也具備這樣的應用AI的技能。好,這邊我們希望兩個月內給我們辦公室相關報告可以嗎?"},{"start":13194.239,"end":13217.199,"text":"可以啊好謝謝主委那另外一個其實我之前已經來跟主委請教過就是關於地方創新的事情之前跟主委討論是相關的法規範其實對於很多新創的產業有非常大的困境喔最近這個黑白大廚很好我就不再多說可是這裡面導入了韓國在地的飲食精彩的飲食文化這件事情其實已經是全球的趨勢我要告訴主委其實我們台灣的料理或是台灣"},{"start":13217.699,"end":13232.813,"text":"相關的創新能力絕對不輸這個但是他們到底遇到什麼問題我之前跟您請教過在5月30我說他們被同業檢舉啊、被開法會相關的法規範其實都不適合讓他們回到地方有非常非常多的困境其實但是因為地方創生計畫是來自國發會所以國發會從我們5月30質詢到現在到底相關法規範在各個部會之間的討論平台目前的困境是什麼"},{"start":13241.681,"end":13266.997,"text":"例如說我們知道月桃在衛福部今年五月營用可是還是有些問題可是老葉呢到目前還不得使用我當然知道衛福部為了照顧國人的食安當然要嚴謹地把關可是例如說我要講艾草目前是應適量使用根莖尚不得使用芝子花這可以做出婚貴我不知道主委你知不知道芝子花是這樣來的還有呢相關之前因為這個蝸牛小米粽的問題可能也讓大家擔心但它可能不是因為食安的問題"},{"start":13268.118,"end":13280.702,"text":"我想要問的是台灣的很多米其林餐廳甚至也有在用這些食材所以不管是地方創生也好或者是所謂高級的米其林餐飲其實他們都會遇到類似的問題但是國發會這邊的角色主委你要不要說一下我想"},{"start":13283.922,"end":13307.517,"text":"我們這邊針對上一次您的質詢的像月頭等等是有我們有做過的法規的調適但是您現在提的可能範圍更大就是我們應該是更全面的看這件事情那我想我會來自己來協調部會我們來看一下是不是可以全面性的來協助我們的地方青年在他的創新上面可以有比較大的空間"},{"start":13308.157,"end":13325.982,"text":"太好了我非常開心聽到主委您說您會主動召開相關的會議由您來主持我相信您的這個承諾一定會讓更多地方創生的夥伴知道自己可以回到自己的原始的家鄉或部落繼續做這樣的事情好那也謝謝主委我們辦公室會再積極跟國防會討論好的好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳培委員謝謝主委請回座下一位質詢請蔡育委員"},{"start":13348.054,"end":13360.558,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是請國發會請國會留主委主委這個國發會說2030年有48萬的勞動力缺口那這個缺口在2023年在在2028年要補足"},{"start":13375.615,"end":13384.616,"text":"這一個勞動力缺口就是35萬那目前還有20萬的差額啊所以這20萬的差額你們是說要怎麼怎麼去補回來"},{"start":13386.438,"end":13407.674,"text":"二十萬差額裡面有八萬是屬於勞動力那有十二萬是屬於技術能力那我們會這個分工下來就是希望把這個十二萬的這個這個白領的這個技術人才我們把它會以這個為來講吸引人才跟留住我們的僑外生兩個方向來做"},{"start":13409.335,"end":13424.036,"text":"那喬外森我們現在一年可以新進的已經到了2萬那過去是48.1%會留下來那我們明年請了教育部幫忙會在每個學校設立一個就業輔導員我們希望能夠有到八成到九成的人留下來這樣的話呢"},{"start":13425.898,"end":13441.868,"text":"再加上我們國外攬才加上我們最近會修法我們下禮拜會公開預覽然後放寬外籍人士進來那這些多元管道我們認為應該是沒有問題可以達到我們要的目標。」主委你認為現在橋外生的優勢是怎樣?"},{"start":13443.939,"end":13457.376,"text":"主要的問題在於是我們沒有足夠的人以2028年35萬來看我們的畢業生只有15萬就怎麼樣就沒有了當然啊所以喬外森的最大優勢是這樣"},{"start":13460.88,"end":13482.159,"text":"有些僑生他本身就會中文能力就很不錯那至少這些人在台灣都讀過書了解台灣的文化了解台灣的社會秩序那我們協助他們留下來的話可以幫助我們可以做得更好會比那些沒待過台灣的更容易被留下來那目前來說這些僑外生他們留下來的意願呢?"},{"start":13483.465,"end":13501.765,"text":"目前的意願是很高的那我們現在怎麼去有更多的法令讓他們可以更容易找到工作所以我們現在也放寬到他畢業以後他有兩年找工作的期間就不會那麼快要逼回去那另外我們還做了一件事情就是全球現在有3500萬的數位牧民就是他用"},{"start":13502.465,"end":13530.145,"text":"數位技能在家工作的那我們希望把他吸引進來然後也留下至少我們希望在2018年之前有10萬人進來留下一萬人對所以政策上就是說跟兩個縣市談好了要做實驗橋外生要他們是需要工作嘛沒有工作是沒辦法留下來啊對對對那所以事實上他們如果在大學就在念書的時候可以打工每個禮拜是20個小時"},{"start":13532.408,"end":13549.037,"text":"現在是就我了解是就剛才可以打工的對是可以求外生可以打工對但是你說你放寬兩年讓他這兩年可以去找工作那找工作的期間的收入呢"},{"start":13550.772,"end":13551.933,"text":"這段時間可以繼續打工嗎?」"},{"start":13575.333,"end":13577.575,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":13595.229,"end":13615.277,"text":"呃要嫁接齁這個僱主齁跟僑外生齁他們的呃這個平台對不對對你們的平台是要怎麼樣就是說好我今天我我是產業那我有勞動力的需求那我要怎麼去找到這些僑外生還是要等著僑外生來找我"},{"start":13616.663,"end":13643.62,"text":"我們現在是第一個我們這個是由教育部會協助在這些學校設就業輔導專員我們希望從學校是最快因為他還沒離開那透過學校的就業輔導單位然後有專員來協助這些橋外生那原來這種事不是每個學校都有有這樣的人力那所以現在會有那第二個部分是我們開始透過經濟部去接洽企業"},{"start":13645.341,"end":13662.892,"text":"像很多的企業就開始預先去找這些橋外生包括前一陣子經濟部也媒介了這個台電要修這個電網的這些廠商去找橋外生然後開始進行訓練所以我們是從學校的角度跟企業的角度我們雙軌並行"},{"start":13664.246,"end":13673.617,"text":"但是現在還是有一個問題就是說我們現在要求的僱主他有一個門檻的要求就是他的資本額要大500萬或是營業額是1000萬以上那"},{"start":13678.066,"end":13702.178,"text":"這兩個是貨所以兩個中有達到一個但是我要強調的是說你定資本額500萬以上的企業事實上在我們全國的稅籍登記的資料它只有占18%所以相對的就是還有另外82%的它是不在500萬以上當然這部分它可能就要需要用營業額1000萬去做它第二個要件"},{"start":13702.719,"end":13714.297,"text":"那你們這樣看起來在這兩個要件之下大概國內有多少比例的企業可以符合可以符合他可以聘請僑外生各位委員報告這部分有一些鬆綁我們請勞動部做說明"},{"start":13718.491,"end":13727.275,"text":"委員是跟您報告一下基本上為了要配合國發會的攬才政策所以我們在111跟112已經陸續放寬了包括新創事業5加2產業還有六大核心戰略產業這些產業的這個500萬跟1000萬的限制我們都已經鬆綁了"},{"start":13735.399,"end":13758.214,"text":"那這些產業呢大概已經站到這個專業及技術人才裡面所以說未來五百萬跟這個一千萬都都沒有限制了對都打開等於是所有的企業都可以重點產業那如果說還有在這個業別以外的那目的事業主管機關認為有需要我們有一個會商機制經會商之後一樣可以打開"},{"start":13759.662,"end":13787.602,"text":"所以目前這個部分應該是已經解決了大部分喬艾森所造成的一些就業上的困擾好那我再就教主委一個問題啦是關於移工嘛就是不是喬艾森是單純的移工事實上很多移工朋友事實上跟我反映你包括日本跟韓國他們現在都已經開放說你到比方說到日本去移工他是可以帶他的家屬"},{"start":13789.059,"end":13807.527,"text":"直接都可以到日本去帶家屬去而且家屬過去也可以工作那如果這一個家屬的工作有發生問題的時候當然就會有一點連坐法連著移工也一併要被遣送回去那個是罰則的部分"},{"start":13807.987,"end":13830.628,"text":"但是我們講他開的這個門就是說移工他可以帶著他的家屬一方面讓移工他們不用跟他的家人隔著非常遠的距離會有思鄉之苦第二個因為移工他的家人也過來他會希望在台灣有更安定的生活他也尋求更安定的工作"},{"start":13831.088,"end":13850.196,"text":"所以他的工作態度或者是他們會盡量去避免違法避免犯規因為連坐的一個結果會變成他整個他的比如比方說他的爸爸媽媽兄弟姊妹來都要相對的要被送回去那我們台灣有可能走到這一步嗎?"},{"start":13851.036,"end":13864.24,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們現在我們這次的修法裡面會把中階技術人才納進來就是中階技術的移工包括具備一定技術能力的焊接、模具這些我們都會納進來他就會適用這條"},{"start":13866.661,"end":13893.419,"text":"所以他未來就是可以引他的家屬進來他的家屬來後就在台灣一樣是定居然後一樣可以找工作對他會適用到我們的攬才專法裡面好那我蠻期待的我希望這個文字如果形成文字後可以給我們辦公室是的我們預計我們下禮拜會公開預覽那我們也送一份到您辦公室好謝謝主委好謝謝來謝謝參議委員主委先回座"},{"start":13899.603,"end":13901.586,"text":"現在休息,我們下午兩點繼續開會。」"},{"start":18309.189,"end":18310.64,"text":"與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較．"},{"start":19724.807,"end":19729.73,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會下一位質詢請林月琦委員質詢有請我們的國家發展委員會主委請郭外劉主委"},{"start":19753.615,"end":19754.957,"text":"主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":19767.964,"end":19795.993,"text":"改變我們少子化的課題這幾天我想國家發展委員會的人口推估的報告已經出來了大家都很熱烈討論從2020年事實上我們已經走到生不如死40多年後人口老化甚至會超過日本2070年我們可能會全台不到1500萬的人扶養比可能到1比1左右所以想問一下"},{"start":19797.15,"end":19819.056,"text":"你的看法,你同意這樣的說法嗎?過去幾年的少子化對策是不是失敗的?這個很難界定,但是我舉個例子,去年我們有一萬多個小孩子是因為我們對於這個不孕症的補助而生出來的小孩有一萬多位"},{"start":19819.836,"end":19820.697,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":19844.229,"end":19870.41,"text":"更低於去年所以就想來跟你討論一下一些問題我覺得失敗的原因在哪邊呢問題一呢臺灣一直事實上是缺乏專責機構事實上我們有成立少子化辦公室僅開過一次會那就是2017年那就停擺了可是相較於日本的話所以我覺得行政院人事行政總處做的報告還比你們還"},{"start":19871.451,"end":19890.909,"text":"比較精準掌握現在日本的狀況你們都還停留在2007年日本的狀態去年他們成立了兒童家庭廳反而我們事實上沒有去思考到這個問題我們看瑞典的經驗怎麼去讓少子化可以減緩呢若實兒權公約然後呢性平然後第三個事實上支持父母成為父母"},{"start":19891.249,"end":19919.029,"text":"和我們現在連專責機構都沒有,因為要去統整統合。第二個是加碼的補助,不變的負擔,固定的學費,高額的雜費。對,現在政府事實上是給育兒津貼也加碼了,有準工,學費非常的低。不過也可以看這錢到底到誰的手上?大概都到業者的手上去。補多少,漲多少,甚至政府如果要漲的話,業者先知道的話,搞不好他漲的比你還高。"},{"start":19919.491,"end":19933.838,"text":"所以政府的錢大概到口袋裡邊去那基本上當不上價嗎還有很重要的就是房價因為趕不上我們進度的居住正義這也是家長如果沒有辦法安居那就沒有辦法熱業所以這也是一個問題第二個"},{"start":19937.148,"end":19964.487,"text":"我們對於兒童身心健全成長缺乏支持現在行人地域我們交通死傷在兒少也是最高的那如果事故傷害居高不下是兒少1到14歲死傷最高其中交通最高的話那我們大概即便生下來還是面對到死亡那還有我們的身心健康這狀況每況愈下而且自殺已經是到第二名那這個"},{"start":19967.945,"end":19983.03,"text":"狀態裡邊又再加上我們的網路安全這是一個很大問題有網路工程甚至網路安全的這個課題又跟自殺有相近的關係來下一頁那隔離近的日本也是跟我們遇到同樣的社會問題"},{"start":19984.51,"end":20005.583,"text":"少子女化嚴重、貧窮、虐待、幸福感低弱,可是他已經改方向了,往下,因為他們去年事實上人口是有成長的,他們有專責單位,所以我不知道人事總處這邊副處長也在,不知道支不支持,就是我們有一個專責的單位,是不是可以去做努力了,那再下一頁,那"},{"start":20006.824,"end":20028.997,"text":"希望能夠催生到營造兒童的友善社會能夠落實是不是比照日本有一個兒童基本法精神所以我覺得這是不是可以再去研究一個是成立專責單位一個是落實兒童基本法謝謝謝謝林月琴委員的質詢謝謝委員主委先回座下一位李坤臣李坤臣李坤臣不在下一位質詢請王小林委員"},{"start":20038.457,"end":20048.197,"text":"主席好,接下來想有請教育部次長教育部張廖次長是"},{"start":20051.107,"end":20066.903,"text":"市長最近國發會所公布的那個報告其實確實帶給國人一個警訊讓我們了解到了2070年我們台灣的人口只剩下1500萬"},{"start":20068.965,"end":20092.925,"text":"比現在大概要少了800多萬人之多那當然現在這個少子化的問題它確實已經影響到衝擊到了我們的教育系統那今天本席在另外未還委員會那邊這個正好是吳春成委員他推動的壯世代政策法案那麼裡面呢本席有特別有提到就是"},{"start":20093.946,"end":20113.203,"text":"在壯世代如何可以帶給教育系統另外一個契機?」那麼這個議題少子化跟壯世代議題我認為是相輔相成的那麼尤其是我們可以看到就是在這個人口年齡結構當中未來幼年跟青壯人口是持續下降"},{"start":20114.944,"end":20133.412,"text":"65歲以上的銀髮族人口是往上提升。」那麼所以這邊會讓我們去思考那面對現在少子化的問題我們教育系統是如何因應那麼我知道其實這個少子化問題其實早就在國高中小學已經發生了所以之前有很多流浪"},{"start":20134.272,"end":20161.842,"text":"是教師,那現在呢這個流浪教師的影響已經升級到大學所以我們這些年來大概也出現了流浪教授那麼高學歷的人才是找不到工作那麼在這邊的話本席想請教教育部看到我們現在的大學學生的招生缺額的情況越來越嚴重可是呢我本席感到很有趣的"},{"start":20162.903,"end":20167.938,"text":"我也看到一個現象就是教育部也同意一些學校不斷的外加名額"},{"start":20170.001,"end":20193.414,"text":"尤其是在大學部跟研究所的部分都有外加名額他其實他一定會影響到就是整個的這個學生聲援的分配的問題還有私立大學的學生現在已經招不到這也是個事關於這部分我跟委員做一個報告分兩部分一部分就是說少子化的衝擊是難免就是說整個看起來那個私立學校的退場已經成為一個無法避免的結構"},{"start":20196.736,"end":20225.329,"text":"但是呢對委員關心這個非常好就是說其實在我們現在外加名的部分其實本來是針對一些比較國家重點產業他需要的一些人才所以在碩博士裡面在學士班都有開那過去確實因為當時是因為配合國家政策所以就找國立大學來協助但是也有考慮到委員所關心的這個現象所以在113年度就今年度8月開始其實已經有做一些調整我來"},{"start":20226.249,"end":20247.12,"text":"講一下就是說就是113學年度起公立大學以培育高階碩博士為主那學士班是以體質良好且這個教學品質比較佳的私立大學為主要來培育這個比例就有差113年在碩博士方面公立學校大概是佔了大概15%15%那那個好"},{"start":20251.122,"end":20260.53,"text":"那個學士大概5%那明年度114年度學士的部分私立占更多那就是公立現在3%而已是,現在是這樣子的就是因為我們知道如果說公立大學的招生員額還是維持現在的規模"},{"start":20269.377,"end":20275.981,"text":"他勢必也會影響到之後私立大學的招生的這個情況以現在來講15萬人到了2070了這到了接下來的5年之後我們還有這麼多的學生嗎"},{"start":20285.507,"end":20298.173,"text":"那麼本席是建議就是教育部要去研擬一個方案就是我們的公立大學是不是也要開始逐漸的要去縮減整個的這個學生的名額還有分配那這樣的話為後面的這個應該是說私立大學他的招生元額才不會缺"},{"start":20307.958,"end":20327.567,"text":"否則的話,如果說我們公立大學的學生的結構不改變的話,那一定未來會有更多的私立大學沒有辦法繼續升職。這個我們會做通盤檢討,那如果有詳細的結果會跟我們報告。那我也希望教育部這裡,是不是可以兩個禮拜給我一個,或是一個月給我一份你們的對於"},{"start":20329.648,"end":20353.099,"text":"公立大學跟私立大學的學生生源結構研析報告,如何我們來調整這樣的一個環境。」好,我們一個月內,我們來跟委員做報告。好,那麻煩一個月後,一個月之內給我一份報告。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝市長。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,請回座。何金淳,何金淳,何金淳不在。賴思寶,賴思寶,賴思寶不在。林俊憲,林俊憲,林俊憲不在。下一位請張雅琳委員。"},{"start":20363.473,"end":20364.614,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請主委。"},{"start":20390.238,"end":20400.162,"text":"謝謝主委我想請教有關於少子化的政策我看了一下我們其實今天我們主計總處其實從107年到現在推出少子女化的對策計畫從193.72億提高到現在112年度已經是1088.27億而今年也持續的去超過了1201億"},{"start":20414.808,"end":20418.163,"text":"但是我們的小孩並沒有多生一點"},{"start":20420.215,"end":20444.031,"text":"那講這個問題呢其實我並沒有要指責國發會的意思因為其實我今年看的這個經濟學人他今年其實就在講全世界的生育率持續的下降但是其實大家都持續的不停的撒錢所以他的標題就是說撒錢換小孩但其實他裡面有一個他裡面就有舉了一個例子就是說從韓國2006年到現在他每一年花2700億美元"},{"start":20446.112,"end":20447.894,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":20462.538,"end":20481.914,"text":"這個只要女性不想生育了就很難起死回生因為觀念的轉變讓年輕女性不想再拼命生小孩現今的補貼對於中低收入的家庭有短暫的吸引力第三個就是中等階級的家庭比起育兒更在乎自己的家庭生活但他其中也有提到一個解放就是說"},{"start":20483.545,"end":20494.975,"text":"在北歐,以北歐的例子來說,我們如果可以提供一個更友善的措施,例如產假或優渥的兒童托育政策,就可能會有一個小幅度的提升。」"},{"start":20497.355,"end":20525.591,"text":"就是小幅度喔,非常小幅度那這個研究其實我也發現中研院鄭彥新研究員也有相關的研究在講為何孩子越生越少他談少子化的困境那他其實也有去講到就是說這個結論是跟經濟學院一樣的不過我想要先講一件事情喔他剛講就是支持友善的環境那我不曉得主委有沒有在網路上面看過各式各樣的厭害言論"},{"start":20528.102,"end":20544.529,"text":"我有這個習慣在網路上收集這些訊息我們也從網路上看到的確目前來講心態上的不爭比什麼都多我們也可以感受到其實我們有找文化部討論因為很多是文化層次"},{"start":20545.049,"end":20572.678,"text":"我想你可以看到美國人都願意多生小孩因為他們的溫情在不論在電視節目或是在家庭生活對我想文化是一個部分我們反而變少了文化的部分是一個但是我可以我舉一個例子就是說你可以看到上面講的當一個家長他們其實在上面討論就是說我帶小孩搭飛機我要準備什麼東西我是不是要讓他吃個鼻塞藥讓他在上面好睡覺我就不會吵到別人我今天大家去餐廳吃飯我要整理得多乾淨我才不會被"},{"start":20573.718,"end":20589.729,"text":"餐廳的老闆媽才會被別人偷拍照。」但其實整個社會是一個非常厭害的環境其實這增加了女性尤其是特別是女性在育兒的時候她的這個擔憂跟困境所以我會覺得說我們今天在做少子化的時候我們除了現金補貼之外"},{"start":20591.89,"end":20612.823,"text":"還有我們現在做的這些政策之外我們是不是可以有更開闊的一些思考來去思考如何從不管從文化的角度也好從整個家長的教育也好來去支持讓我們的所有的小孩都可以被城市裡的大人們可以看見所以第一個建議我想問我們是不是可以讓各個部會來舉辦這個所謂的家庭日"},{"start":20614.466,"end":20632.786,"text":"這個我因為整個主政還是陳時中政委我會把這個想法去跟他說一個說明我希望就是說因為大家還是希望因為大家可能不生小孩其實不太能夠理解生有個小孩子在這個城市裡他會遇到什麼樣子的問題如果我可以把小孩帶來職場的話大家都可以有一些感受我覺得這是第一個步"},{"start":20633.226,"end":20633.806,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":20653.271,"end":20681.179,"text":"我們有召集大家來可是只有21家企業有員工來申請但其實這個比例是非常低那我們是不是可以來做一個檢討瞭解一下怎麼樣可以鼓勵我們更多的企業來投入申請這個企業的彈性育嬰假因為有非常多的家長還是有告訴我們說其實他就算想要去請的時候老公他老闆可能會告訴他他人資可能會告訴他你要考慮一下你老闆的想法你要考慮一下你未來的生前在某種程度還是暗示了他不能去申請"},{"start":20682.239,"end":20686.242,"text":"所以我們是不是可以來做一個檢討針對這個面向?這個我請陳政委找勞動部來討論這件事情來檢討一下這件事謝謝張雅玲委員有1分20秒了主委請回座下位諮詢請吳淳澄委員"},{"start":20713.789,"end":20740.838,"text":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員。」主委好最近經常看到你憂心忡忡覺得很心疼因為但是我必須要肯定你很誠實的勇敢的公布了我們的人口退估數字所以呢整個的"},{"start":20741.977,"end":20747.823,"text":"我們不敢面對的事情就是臺灣的人口惡化"},{"start":20757.29,"end":20782.731,"text":"這一個人口的這個資料所以這個本週立法院都就是人口週現在這個同時未完在談人口老化的問題那經濟在談少子化的問題顯然大家都是追隨你的腳步非常的關注那這是一個很重要精神但國發會是人口的專家是我們國家在這個引導整個人口政策"},{"start":20784.654,"end":20791.869,"text":"所以也期待我們不要憂心勇敢地往前走發揮你世代夫的精神嚴所當言為所當委"},{"start":20794.315,"end":20817.453,"text":"那當然這個就知道今天在談少子化那這個可能前面有人提過了就是我們其實每年都花了上千億但是我們的少子化幾乎是每兩年就要減少減少一萬這個的人口推估你看這幾年來從1.78逐年一直下降"},{"start":20818.954,"end":20825.116,"text":"下降到你現在推估的最新2025年0.87但是呢這個後面這個反而又上揚這個是依據有什麼理由台灣未來的這個生育率會上升這個主委請教你"},{"start":20838.962,"end":20862.622,"text":"我們現在我們原來的計畫是希望透過2024年、2025年我們現在整個目標就是要努力守住現在的出生率先不讓它往下降然後之後我們才會來談怎麼樣的往上升所以我們總是要表示一下我們願意朝這個方向的決心當然你一定要樂觀我們當然也是期待這樣子"},{"start":20863.903,"end":20884.423,"text":"只是應該按照現在的一個下降的速度應該也不用等到大家都說提早的15年事實上不只提早15年今年是2024年可能看起來是2026年、2027年就會破10萬了按照現在的速度還不用等到2040年所以這個問題是非常嚴重"},{"start":20886.704,"end":20902.024,"text":"就剛應該就國發會要告訴我們的政府少子化、高齡化已經定型了你也提出了不可逆轉所以我們要面對這樣的一個事實我們過去都把它當作邊陲問題"},{"start":20903.926,"end":20931.814,"text":"頭痛一頭腳痛一頭反正遇到問題就用短期政策應付一下短期政策應付一下但是請國發會告訴我們的政府不可逆轉已經定型了所以我們要為未來少子化高齡化的社會好好的來做設計不然這個台灣真的是一個非常大的危機未來30年最重要的事情就是國發會的事情人口的事接下來我們少子化高齡化跟少子化一體之兩面"},{"start":20933.594,"end":20952.619,"text":"為什麼會少子化?現在用這種補貼的政策能夠解決嗎?最重要的他們是沒有未來那沒有未來兩個,一個高齡化會壓垮現在扶養比3.6比1接下來2014年會2比1接下來高齡化這個問題不解決的話年輕人沒有未來了啦,我們要告訴年輕人所以要解決"},{"start":20953.459,"end":20973.817,"text":"同時呢我在談的壯世代就是把分子被撫養的分子拉下來當分模讓台灣的基本盤每一個人都成為生產者消費者壯捷你認不認同?這個我們已經在進行了所以勞動部也有中高齡就業法也有做家人服務所以這些已經在進行了"},{"start":20975.318,"end":21000.014,"text":"我知道都在進行今天談的就是說我們行政院都在進行的而且我們現在也放寬了退休的規範也推出了很多但是我想這個主委是專家用24G的腦袋無法解決21G的問題現在推出來的就是雖然有很多部會在做但是其實沒有人沒有預算沒有法制沒有什麼所有的用現狀的問題用"},{"start":21001.255,"end":21003.936,"text":"解決過去的那種老舊的問題來解決未來問題。」"},{"start":21027.615,"end":21051.33,"text":"謝惠、羅明財、羅明財、羅明財不在、陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷不在、林淑儀、林淑儀、林淑儀不在、蘇清泉、蘇英元、蘇英元不在、洪孟凱、洪孟凱、洪孟凱不在、林倩琦、林倩琦、林倩琦不在、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌不在、葉元芝、葉元芝、葉元芝不在。登記發言委員除不在場者外,區區發言完畢。訊號結束。順便諮詢以及未及答問部分,請相關單位一周內已順便答問並複製本會。本"},{"start":21094.205,"end":21098.011,"text":"二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":21110.188,"end":21118.715,"text":"與亞鄰國家之留才政策競爭力比較：暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才政策競爭力比較：暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才政策競爭力比較：暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才政策競爭力比較：暨"},{"start":21139.172,"end":21143.11,"text":"我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會首長、教育部首長、"}]}},{"id":"16204","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16204","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d5998180c4b1e7cf483679203eefbeec06059d4d42a7fce21a84e78a386eafaaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T08:31:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:44:00+08:00","duration":11548,"影片長度":"03:12:28","委員發言時間":"08:31:32 - 11:44:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1292.1328437500001,"end":1293.4490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1294.34346875,"end":1295.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1712.7590937500001,"end":1731.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1732.82346875,"end":1738.3922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1738.7128437500003,"end":1741.5140937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1742.1553437500002,"end":1745.5472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1746.1715937500003,"end":1754.8622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1755.7228437500003,"end":1758.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1759.3678437500002,"end":1761.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1762.37159375,"end":1765.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1765.74659375,"end":1768.4634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1769.23971875,"end":1771.7034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1772.2434687500001,"end":1774.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1775.01096875,"end":1778.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1781.3222187500003,"end":1787.0765937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1793.7422187500001,"end":1815.2915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1816.08471875,"end":1829.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1829.7534687500001,"end":1834.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1835.6765937500002,"end":1846.3922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1847.6915937500003,"end":1859.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1859.80784375,"end":1869.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1870.4390937500002,"end":1883.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1884.1078437500003,"end":1886.5040937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1886.8922187500002,"end":1904.6278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1905.0497187500002,"end":1925.0297187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1925.5528437500002,"end":1930.6153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1931.0372187500002,"end":1948.1147187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1948.1653437500001,"end":1956.9403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1956.9572187500003,"end":1957.0415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1957.2103437500002,"end":1964.4159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1965.00659375,"end":1967.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1968.0609687500003,"end":1977.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1978.0340937500002,"end":2020.7447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2021.5884687500002,"end":2026.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2027.4947187500002,"end":2051.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2053.2459687500004,"end":2073.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2073.5465937500003,"end":2077.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2077.93409375,"end":2080.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2081.05596875,"end":2103.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2103.8034687500003,"end":2110.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2111.2284687500005,"end":2116.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2116.74659375,"end":2137.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2138.1778437500006,"end":2144.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2144.80971875,"end":2172.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2173.7165937500004,"end":2207.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2207.4834687500006,"end":2212.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2213.23784375,"end":2213.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2213.6259687500005,"end":2214.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2214.5709687500002,"end":2242.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2242.3134687500005,"end":2261.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2261.44971875,"end":2264.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2264.82471875,"end":2269.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2270.41034375,"end":2275.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2275.8103437500004,"end":2280.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2280.1640937500006,"end":2292.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2293.1240937500006,"end":2326.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2328.8653437500006,"end":2365.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2374.6640937500006,"end":2374.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2375.33909375,"end":2376.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2377.6172187500006,"end":2378.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2382.39284375,"end":2394.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2388.50159375,"end":2388.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2395.84221875,"end":2397.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2397.9684687500003,"end":2401.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2402.2715937500006,"end":2411.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2411.3672187500006,"end":2418.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2413.13909375,"end":2413.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2419.0115937500004,"end":2430.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2431.0772187500006,"end":2436.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2438.08034375,"end":2441.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2441.33721875,"end":2443.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2443.80096875,"end":2445.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2445.57284375,"end":2454.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2455.7822187500005,"end":2460.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2461.1990937500004,"end":2461.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2462.5322187500005,"end":2471.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2472.5390937500006,"end":2473.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2474.3953437500004,"end":2482.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2482.8328437500004,"end":2488.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2488.18221875,"end":2489.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2489.31284375,"end":2490.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2491.59096875,"end":2495.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2493.54846875,"end":2505.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2496.1472187500003,"end":2497.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2498.12159375,"end":2498.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2505.15846875,"end":2505.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2505.29346875,"end":2512.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2505.34409375,"end":2505.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2510.40659375,"end":2511.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2512.7184687500003,"end":2535.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2518.1522187500004,"end":2518.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2535.53346875,"end":2538.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2539.11096875,"end":2541.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2541.13596875,"end":2541.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2541.32159375,"end":2541.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2541.4059687500003,"end":2542.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2541.67596875,"end":2541.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2544.0215937500006,"end":2583.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2581.45034375,"end":2584.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2585.3484687500004,"end":2604.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2604.9403437500005,"end":2612.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2612.97284375,"end":2614.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2615.4197187500004,"end":2616.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2617.0565937500005,"end":2621.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2621.6803437500002,"end":2628.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2628.6159687500003,"end":2631.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2631.8897187500006,"end":2633.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2634.0497187500005,"end":2634.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2634.69096875,"end":2636.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2636.98596875,"end":2638.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2639.0615937500006,"end":2641.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2642.16659375,"end":2643.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2644.2253437500003,"end":2645.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2645.71034375,"end":2650.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2650.6715937500003,"end":2653.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2654.38409375,"end":2655.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2655.3965937500006,"end":2658.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2658.8897187500006,"end":2659.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2660.22284375,"end":2660.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2661.2353437500005,"end":2662.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2662.5684687500006,"end":2663.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2664.2897187500002,"end":2665.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2665.8084687500004,"end":2670.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2671.1240937500006,"end":2672.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2672.5078437500006,"end":2674.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2674.81971875,"end":2675.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2676.25409375,"end":2676.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2677.23284375,"end":2678.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2679.5447187500004,"end":2681.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2682.12659375,"end":2690.7159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2683.4090937500005,"end":2686.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2690.4122187500006,"end":2700.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2701.2965937500003,"end":2705.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2706.1903437500005,"end":2719.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2719.6397187500006,"end":2720.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2721.58034375,"end":2727.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2726.6090937500003,"end":2726.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2726.6259687500005,"end":2727.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2727.0309687500003,"end":2728.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2728.16159375,"end":2729.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2730.55784375,"end":2744.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2734.2197187500005,"end":2735.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2743.3828437500006,"end":2745.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2745.32346875,"end":2745.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2745.4247187500005,"end":2746.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2746.2684687500005,"end":2746.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2746.30221875,"end":2746.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2746.3359687500006,"end":2746.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2746.9772187500002,"end":2776.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2756.4609687500006,"end":2756.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2757.6084687500006,"end":2761.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2761.9959687500004,"end":2762.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2762.21534375,"end":2762.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2762.99159375,"end":2763.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2763.1434687500005,"end":2765.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2765.26971875,"end":2765.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2766.61971875,"end":2766.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2766.85596875,"end":2766.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2773.6228437500004,"end":2781.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2778.2803437500006,"end":2779.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2780.11971875,"end":2782.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2781.5372187500006,"end":2781.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2782.44846875,"end":2783.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2783.2078437500004,"end":2787.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2787.1397187500006,"end":2792.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2792.33721875,"end":2792.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2792.5565937500005,"end":2810.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2810.5115937500004,"end":2816.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2816.33346875,"end":2841.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2842.11846875,"end":2853.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2853.5934687500003,"end":2874.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2874.95721875,"end":2879.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2880.0534687500003,"end":2885.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2885.5547187500006,"end":2885.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2885.6053437500004,"end":2914.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2915.11971875,"end":2917.6847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2917.9715937500005,"end":2920.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2921.12721875,"end":2922.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2921.1778437500006,"end":2927.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2926.42596875,"end":2927.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2927.75909375,"end":2930.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2929.15971875,"end":2934.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2933.7159687500007,"end":2939.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2939.8584687500006,"end":2941.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2941.8497187500006,"end":2951.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2951.2322187500004,"end":2955.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2955.4003437500005,"end":2955.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2955.4509687500004,"end":2955.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2955.7715937500006,"end":2997.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2955.8222187500005,"end":2955.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2960.2097187500003,"end":2960.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2973.45659375,"end":2973.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2998.2965937500003,"end":3010.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2998.56659375,"end":3001.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3009.9909687500003,"end":3026.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3026.8659687500003,"end":3027.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3028.30034375,"end":3035.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3033.10971875,"end":3033.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3035.33721875,"end":3037.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3037.8515937500006,"end":3037.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3037.86846875,"end":3044.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3044.8884687500004,"end":3045.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3045.04034375,"end":3046.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3047.2340937500003,"end":3047.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3047.4197187500004,"end":3054.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3054.74346875,"end":3054.7940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3054.7940937500007,"end":3054.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3054.8447187500005,"end":3054.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3054.9459687500002,"end":3055.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3055.0134687500004,"end":3056.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3056.4647187500004,"end":3058.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3059.4684687500003,"end":3061.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3066.06659375,"end":3067.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3068.66534375,"end":3069.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3073.42409375,"end":3074.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3074.1328437500006,"end":3147.1847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3108.45659375,"end":3108.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3149.3447187500005,"end":3158.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3157.8834687500002,"end":3163.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3161.0222187500003,"end":3162.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3162.27096875,"end":3169.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3168.97034375,"end":3258.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3259.5047187500004,"end":3264.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3266.3222187500005,"end":3272.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3271.6378437500007,"end":3278.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3278.9615937500002,"end":3288.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3288.0065937500003,"end":3291.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3290.8415937500004,"end":3291.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3292.0059687500006,"end":3368.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3368.6522187500004,"end":3390.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3391.28159375,"end":3393.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3394.36971875,"end":3404.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3404.24159375,"end":3411.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3409.91159375,"end":3442.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3442.8009687500007,"end":3452.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3452.52096875,"end":3463.0509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3460.8572187500004,"end":3464.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3464.4347187500007,"end":3501.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3465.3122187500003,"end":3465.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3490.0847187500003,"end":3490.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3495.1640937500006,"end":3495.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3495.18096875,"end":3495.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3501.7115937500002,"end":3511.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3506.82471875,"end":3507.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3510.4022187500004,"end":3546.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3524.4590937500006,"end":3524.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3524.52659375,"end":3525.1847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3546.29534375,"end":3566.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3552.25221875,"end":3553.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3553.6190937500005,"end":3553.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3564.6553437500006,"end":3569.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3569.2959687500006,"end":3573.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3572.2997187500005,"end":3589.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3587.4872187500005,"end":3592.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3591.5709687500002,"end":3624.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3624.93284375,"end":3625.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3625.4728437500007,"end":3625.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3626.0465937500003,"end":3626.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3627.6834687500004,"end":3630.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3630.8222187500005,"end":3633.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3643.1747187500005,"end":3649.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3649.6715937500003,"end":3651.1397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3652.0340937500005,"end":3653.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3656.23596875,"end":3657.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3657.2653437500003,"end":3710.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3704.44784375,"end":3704.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3710.45534375,"end":3710.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3711.0965937500005,"end":3765.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3765.4172187500008,"end":3778.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3778.7315937500007,"end":3781.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3781.8365937500002,"end":3791.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3791.64096875,"end":3806.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3807.48659375,"end":3808.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3809.8153437500005,"end":3815.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3815.5528437500006,"end":3831.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3833.0184687500005,"end":3839.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3839.8865937500004,"end":3842.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3844.18971875,"end":3862.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3863.37659375,"end":3870.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3871.0040937500007,"end":3878.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3879.5597187500007,"end":3894.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3894.5447187500004,"end":3921.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3922.13534375,"end":3945.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3945.5409687500005,"end":3945.5578437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3946.18221875,"end":3946.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3946.1990937500004,"end":3952.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3952.4090937500005,"end":3961.8253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3962.0109687500008,"end":3962.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3962.09534375,"end":3986.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3986.4122187500006,"end":3996.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3996.6553437500006,"end":4000.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4000.4522187500006,"end":4012.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4013.2097187500003,"end":4085.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4085.7722187500003,"end":4156.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4157.03534375,"end":4157.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4157.50784375,"end":4158.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4158.452843749999,"end":4159.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4161.591593749999,"end":4163.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4165.28721875,"end":4167.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4172.239718750001,"end":4174.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4175.614718750001,"end":4176.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4180.08659375,"end":4180.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4181.436593750001,"end":4181.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4181.87534375,"end":4230.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4231.60596875,"end":4243.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4243.65471875,"end":4257.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4257.99846875,"end":4285.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4261.592843750001,"end":4261.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4287.10784375,"end":4287.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4287.225968750001,"end":4290.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4287.327218750001,"end":4287.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4290.0947187500005,"end":4290.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4290.8709687499995,"end":4291.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4291.022843750001,"end":4325.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4325.97096875,"end":4333.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4333.024718750001,"end":4341.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4341.1415937500005,"end":4350.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4341.15846875,"end":4342.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4348.22909375,"end":4368.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4368.968468749999,"end":4423.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4424.149718750001,"end":4425.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4425.0272187499995,"end":4436.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4435.860968749999,"end":4476.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4478.03159375,"end":4492.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4478.436593750001,"end":4480.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4491.278468750001,"end":4501.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4499.850968750001,"end":4500.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4500.66096875,"end":4507.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4507.259093750001,"end":4580.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4581.10409375,"end":4583.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4583.9559687500005,"end":4601.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4601.92784375,"end":4635.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4635.9647187499995,"end":4662.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4658.2059687500005,"end":4662.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4662.171593749999,"end":4662.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4662.1884687500005,"end":4667.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4662.374093750001,"end":4662.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4669.022843750001,"end":4670.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4670.96346875,"end":4716.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4717.217843750001,"end":4728.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4725.57096875,"end":4725.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4728.4228437500005,"end":4731.173468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4729.030343750001,"end":4736.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4732.1522187499995,"end":4732.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4734.599093750001,"end":4737.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4738.1259687500005,"end":4747.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4747.862843750001,"end":4753.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4751.59221875,"end":4752.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4753.904093749999,"end":4755.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4754.3934687500005,"end":4773.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4756.18221875,"end":4756.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4772.17971875,"end":4784.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4781.241593750001,"end":4783.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4783.97534375,"end":4785.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4785.038468750001,"end":4785.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4786.28721875,"end":4787.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4789.22346875,"end":4792.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4797.15471875,"end":4798.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4799.331593750001,"end":4800.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4806.01409375,"end":4806.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4806.030968749999,"end":4806.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4806.85784375,"end":4808.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4808.376593749999,"end":4808.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4808.49471875,"end":4880.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4881.040343750001,"end":4986.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4986.99846875,"end":5024.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5024.3934687500005,"end":5028.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5029.23659375,"end":5040.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5041.116593750001,"end":5048.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5047.5965937500005,"end":5052.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5049.503468750001,"end":5053.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5053.1990937499995,"end":5068.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5055.29159375,"end":5055.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5069.16284375,"end":5077.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5078.02221875,"end":5096.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5095.774718750001,"end":5097.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5097.175343750001,"end":5101.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5099.419718749999,"end":5101.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5101.41096875,"end":5106.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5106.2372187500005,"end":5108.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5107.51971875,"end":5110.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5110.13534375,"end":5111.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5111.232218749999,"end":5116.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5114.809718750001,"end":5116.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5116.868468750001,"end":5120.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5120.564093749999,"end":5125.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5126.21721875,"end":5128.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5128.107218749999,"end":5130.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5130.38534375,"end":5150.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5148.86346875,"end":5152.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5152.08659375,"end":5165.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5160.15284375,"end":5161.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5163.780968749999,"end":5167.392218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5167.1053437499995,"end":5171.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5170.42971875,"end":5178.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5176.42034375,"end":5176.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5178.462218750001,"end":5178.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5178.52971875,"end":5197.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5178.95159375,"end":5181.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5198.847218750001,"end":5208.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5208.077843749999,"end":5214.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5214.0009687500005,"end":5221.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5215.030343750001,"end":5218.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5222.421593749999,"end":5223.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5222.74221875,"end":5231.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5227.686593750001,"end":5232.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5233.55909375,"end":5242.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5243.07659375,"end":5272.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5273.012843750001,"end":5281.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5273.046593749999,"end":5273.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5273.55284375,"end":5273.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5276.8603437500005,"end":5279.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5280.218468749999,"end":5295.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5293.769093750001,"end":5301.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5302.37534375,"end":5303.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5304.53534375,"end":5311.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5312.1122187500005,"end":5322.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5319.48659375,"end":5319.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5319.503468750001,"end":5338.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5329.999718749999,"end":5332.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5336.715968750001,"end":5344.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5339.87159375,"end":5340.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5341.94721875,"end":5342.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5343.43221875,"end":5345.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5345.06909375,"end":5353.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5350.874093750001,"end":5361.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5360.847218750001,"end":5373.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5373.4022187499995,"end":5379.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5379.24096875,"end":5381.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5381.02971875,"end":5384.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5383.9490937499995,"end":5385.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5385.24846875,"end":5396.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5386.51409375,"end":5389.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5397.499718749999,"end":5398.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5398.5965937500005,"end":5427.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5408.58659375,"end":5410.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5410.45971875,"end":5411.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5411.6747187500005,"end":5411.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5411.708468750001,"end":5411.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5411.82659375,"end":5411.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5411.97846875,"end":5412.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5412.974093750001,"end":5413.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5423.55471875,"end":5429.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5427.975968750001,"end":5429.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5431.33409375,"end":5433.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5434.8778437500005,"end":5437.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5442.96096875,"end":5443.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5443.669718749999,"end":5444.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5445.89721875,"end":5445.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5445.930968750001,"end":5445.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5445.94784375,"end":5446.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5446.065968750001,"end":5446.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5446.08284375,"end":5446.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5446.13346875,"end":5446.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5446.84221875,"end":5446.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5449.204718749999,"end":5450.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5450.08221875,"end":5450.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5450.11596875,"end":5455.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5456.190968750001,"end":5467.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5467.93596875,"end":5471.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5467.952843749999,"end":5472.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5471.54721875,"end":5471.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5472.30659375,"end":5480.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5481.57096875,"end":5485.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5485.46909375,"end":5494.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5494.98659375,"end":5548.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5497.55159375,"end":5497.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5497.585343750001,"end":5497.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5497.97346875,"end":5498.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5549.003468750001,"end":5564.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5564.83221875,"end":5584.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5585.335343750001,"end":5593.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5592.81096875,"end":5601.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5602.311593750001,"end":5602.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5602.32846875,"end":5608.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5602.37909375,"end":5602.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5602.817843750001,"end":5602.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5606.63159375,"end":5607.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5607.930968750001,"end":5634.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5632.585343750001,"end":5633.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5633.64846875,"end":5692.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5634.81284375,"end":5638.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5692.69409375,"end":5700.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5700.62534375,"end":5731.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5731.860968749999,"end":5732.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5732.63721875,"end":5751.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5751.85784375,"end":5752.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5753.12346875,"end":5756.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5756.717843750001,"end":5767.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5767.70346875,"end":5772.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5772.15846875,"end":5794.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5795.007218750001,"end":5795.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5795.17596875,"end":5795.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5796.07034375,"end":5820.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5821.0790937500005,"end":5835.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5837.059718750001,"end":5841.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5840.2997187500005,"end":5840.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5840.333468750001,"end":5840.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5840.53596875,"end":5840.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5841.970343750001,"end":5842.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5842.4090937500005,"end":5870.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5870.843468749999,"end":5871.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5871.80534375,"end":5888.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5888.849093750001,"end":5898.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5898.366593750001,"end":5905.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5900.96534375,"end":5901.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5902.41659375,"end":5902.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5906.17971875,"end":5908.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5909.63909375,"end":5920.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5918.86971875,"end":5925.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5925.38346875,"end":5930.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5930.614718750001,"end":5930.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5930.64846875,"end":5950.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5951.185343749999,"end":5970.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5969.849093750001,"end":6003.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6004.206593750001,"end":6006.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6006.19784375,"end":6006.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6006.315968750001,"end":6006.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6006.48471875,"end":6006.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6006.5184687500005,"end":6031.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6031.628468750001,"end":6037.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6037.41659375,"end":6041.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6041.432843750001,"end":6043.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6044.35221875,"end":6044.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6044.36909375,"end":6051.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6057.075968749999,"end":6059.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6062.77971875,"end":6063.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6063.80909375,"end":6126.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6069.1415937500005,"end":6069.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6069.25971875,"end":6069.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6069.310343749999,"end":6069.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6127.259093750001,"end":6137.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6137.36721875,"end":6154.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6154.19159375,"end":6155.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6155.5584687499995,"end":6156.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6156.38534375,"end":6205.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6173.59784375,"end":6173.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6206.048468750001,"end":6217.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6217.52346875,"end":6220.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6220.61159375,"end":6223.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6220.89846875,"end":6229.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6230.061593750001,"end":6231.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6230.6522187499995,"end":6231.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6231.52971875,"end":6247.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6246.66659375,"end":6348.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6249.67034375,"end":6250.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6253.19721875,"end":6254.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6254.31096875,"end":6254.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6349.31721875,"end":6356.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6355.61159375,"end":6356.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6356.53971875,"end":6358.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6359.12159375,"end":6366.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6365.432843750001,"end":6375.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6367.677218750001,"end":6371.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6373.88721875,"end":6377.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6377.31284375,"end":6389.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6389.2772187499995,"end":6399.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6399.75659375,"end":6421.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6420.42846875,"end":6424.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6423.76971875,"end":6462.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6464.16846875,"end":6475.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6476.048468750001,"end":6481.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6481.634093750001,"end":6485.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6482.984093749999,"end":6484.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6484.485968750001,"end":6565.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6498.880343750001,"end":6498.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6498.99846875,"end":6499.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6566.616593750001,"end":6588.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6587.82846875,"end":6589.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6588.67221875,"end":6596.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6596.232218749999,"end":6650.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6651.16034375,"end":6668.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6667.866593750001,"end":6671.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6670.19534375,"end":6676.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6676.50659375,"end":6688.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6676.84409375,"end":6677.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6688.36971875,"end":6695.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6694.74846875,"end":6700.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6701.4647187499995,"end":6749.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6749.54159375,"end":6764.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6763.4803437499995,"end":6767.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6766.872218750001,"end":6786.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6777.67221875,"end":6780.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6786.514718750001,"end":6786.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6786.80159375,"end":6786.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6786.85221875,"end":6787.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6787.00409375,"end":6787.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6789.788468750001,"end":6792.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6799.55909375,"end":6801.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6809.81909375,"end":6811.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6812.0634687500005,"end":6812.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6817.32846875,"end":6823.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6823.94346875,"end":6894.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6898.395968750001,"end":6909.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6901.163468750001,"end":6901.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6901.28159375,"end":6902.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6902.54721875,"end":6902.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6905.6522187499995,"end":6906.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6907.08659375,"end":6907.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6909.5165937500005,"end":6910.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6910.967843750001,"end":6911.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6911.30534375,"end":6913.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6911.32221875,"end":6914.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6914.5115937499995,"end":6916.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6915.2372187500005,"end":6917.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6917.8865937499995,"end":6918.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6918.39284375,"end":6920.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6919.911593750001,"end":6925.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6923.30346875,"end":6938.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6926.6278437500005,"end":6929.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6938.32221875,"end":6940.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6940.00971875,"end":6949.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6940.93784375,"end":6941.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6941.1572187500005,"end":6941.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6941.325968749999,"end":6941.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6941.41034375,"end":6941.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6941.46096875,"end":6941.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6941.950343750001,"end":6942.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6945.47721875,"end":6946.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6948.599093750001,"end":6962.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6959.50034375,"end":6966.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6962.520968750001,"end":6969.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6968.528468750001,"end":6975.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6971.3465937500005,"end":6974.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6975.16034375,"end":6975.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6975.80159375,"end":6977.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6976.05471875,"end":6976.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6977.6747187500005,"end":6979.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6977.8603437500005,"end":6978.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6979.260968750001,"end":6987.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6981.741593750001,"end":6983.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6984.407843750001,"end":6986.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6987.327218750001,"end":7000.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6987.698468750001,"end":6987.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6991.343468750001,"end":6992.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6998.194718750001,"end":6999.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6999.882218750001,"end":7003.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7001.55284375,"end":7030.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7032.450968749999,"end":7034.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7032.467843750001,"end":7033.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7034.3915937500005,"end":7048.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7047.030968750001,"end":7164.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7164.80159375,"end":7166.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7167.450968749999,"end":7168.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7170.25221875,"end":7170.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7171.61909375,"end":7186.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7187.22846875,"end":7188.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7188.122843749999,"end":7207.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7206.229718750001,"end":7206.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7207.37721875,"end":7207.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7208.288468750001,"end":7301.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7301.64096875,"end":7314.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7315.14096875,"end":7334.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7335.25596875,"end":7336.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7336.538468750001,"end":7352.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7350.983468750001,"end":7354.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7357.42971875,"end":7357.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7357.46346875,"end":7359.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7358.425343750001,"end":7358.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7358.661593750001,"end":7361.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7362.62721875,"end":7368.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7368.921593750001,"end":7413.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7370.50784375,"end":7370.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7371.368468750001,"end":7371.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7372.46534375,"end":7373.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7395.600968750001,"end":7395.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7413.53909375,"end":7423.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7423.394093750001,"end":7436.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7436.08409375,"end":7455.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7438.919093750001,"end":7438.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7439.03721875,"end":7439.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7445.34846875,"end":7446.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7451.45721875,"end":7451.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7455.54096875,"end":7489.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7485.325343750001,"end":7490.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7491.7040937500005,"end":7493.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7493.762843750001,"end":7494.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7495.65284375,"end":7502.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7508.714093750001,"end":7510.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7511.279093749999,"end":7512.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7517.185343749999,"end":7522.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7518.180968750001,"end":7518.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7518.231593750001,"end":7518.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7518.366593750001,"end":7518.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7522.0790937500005,"end":7522.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7522.8553437499995,"end":7525.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7522.905968750001,"end":7522.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7522.956593750001,"end":7522.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7524.407843750001,"end":7524.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7524.76221875,"end":7525.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7525.217843750001,"end":7539.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7525.302218750001,"end":7525.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7539.66284375,"end":7649.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7555.50846875,"end":7555.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7555.964093750001,"end":7556.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7650.71721875,"end":7651.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7651.71284375,"end":7677.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7660.116593750001,"end":7660.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7674.67971875,"end":7676.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7677.936593750001,"end":7677.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7677.9872187500005,"end":7690.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7689.833468750001,"end":7715.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7715.753468750001,"end":7721.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7721.35596875,"end":7723.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7723.41471875,"end":7745.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7746.29721875,"end":7767.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7761.61971875,"end":7762.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7766.243468750001,"end":7776.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7774.444718750001,"end":7787.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7777.04346875,"end":7777.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7778.91659375,"end":7779.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7779.57471875,"end":7779.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7785.784718750001,"end":7803.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7790.91471875,"end":7791.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7803.01409375,"end":7803.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7803.33471875,"end":7834.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7834.215968750001,"end":7834.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7834.2665937500005,"end":7898.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7898.08784375,"end":7902.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7900.112843750001,"end":7900.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7902.357218749999,"end":7915.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7913.73096875,"end":7916.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7916.3465937500005,"end":7924.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7922.7928437499995,"end":7923.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7925.07096875,"end":8007.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8007.8934687500005,"end":8013.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8013.90096875,"end":8030.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8028.9872187500005,"end":8030.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8030.421593750001,"end":8041.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8040.39471875,"end":8044.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8044.41096875,"end":8058.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8058.29909375,"end":8095.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8095.05284375,"end":8107.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8104.13159375,"end":8104.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8107.52346875,"end":8108.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8108.282843750001,"end":8117.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8115.555968750001,"end":8115.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8115.57284375,"end":8127.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8118.23909375,"end":8118.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8128.27971875,"end":8129.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8129.528468750001,"end":8130.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8130.6590937500005,"end":8130.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8131.14846875,"end":8132.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8137.257218750001,"end":8139.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8145.9647187499995,"end":8147.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8148.95159375,"end":8149.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8151.76971875,"end":8152.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8153.288468750001,"end":8173.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8173.4540937500005,"end":8191.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8191.79721875,"end":8241.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8230.390343750001,"end":8230.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8240.39721875,"end":8240.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8240.414093750001,"end":8241.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8241.375968750002,"end":8242.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8242.38846875,"end":8242.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8242.624718750001,"end":8244.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8244.46409375,"end":8244.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8245.13909375,"end":8252.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8252.56409375,"end":8252.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8252.766593750002,"end":8253.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8253.57659375,"end":8257.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8254.875968750002,"end":8255.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8255.63534375,"end":8256.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8257.609718750002,"end":8269.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8257.761593750001,"end":8260.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8260.15784375,"end":8260.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8261.980343750001,"end":8262.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8262.43596875,"end":8262.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8269.574093750001,"end":8303.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8272.594718750002,"end":8272.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8303.070968750002,"end":8307.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8307.812843750002,"end":8307.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8307.964718750001,"end":8308.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8308.032218750002,"end":8315.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8309.80409375,"end":8309.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8309.820968750002,"end":8309.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8309.972843750002,"end":8310.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8313.28034375,"end":8314.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8315.89596875,"end":8320.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8316.23346875,"end":8317.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8320.789718750002,"end":8330.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8324.519093750001,"end":8325.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8330.61096875,"end":8330.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8330.62784375,"end":8330.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8330.762843750003,"end":8342.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8342.406593750002,"end":8360.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8357.914718750002,"end":8360.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8360.83409375,"end":8366.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8367.28034375,"end":8371.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8371.38096875,"end":8400.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8392.74471875,"end":8392.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8392.79534375,"end":8392.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8393.301593750002,"end":8393.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8393.824718750002,"end":8393.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8393.85846875,"end":8393.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8395.69784375,"end":8396.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8397.95909375,"end":8397.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8397.992843750002,"end":8398.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8398.02659375,"end":8398.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8400.97971875,"end":8401.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8401.45221875,"end":8413.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8401.87409375,"end":8403.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8406.93659375,"end":8409.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8411.62784375,"end":8412.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8413.21409375,"end":8431.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8431.000343750002,"end":8432.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8431.82721875,"end":8432.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8432.50221875,"end":8434.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8435.742218750001,"end":8436.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8437.446593750003,"end":8439.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8440.93971875,"end":8461.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8461.66221875,"end":8481.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8482.047218750002,"end":8483.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8484.13971875,"end":8516.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8518.581593750001,"end":8533.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8526.05721875,"end":8526.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8528.90909375,"end":8529.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8531.89596875,"end":8537.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8536.65471875,"end":8536.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8536.722218750001,"end":8536.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8536.90784375,"end":8536.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8536.92471875,"end":8537.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8537.12721875,"end":8540.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8540.97471875,"end":8567.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8569.45971875,"end":8579.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8578.032218750002,"end":8586.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8580.563468750002,"end":8581.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8586.06471875,"end":8590.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8589.102218750002,"end":8592.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8590.941593750002,"end":8594.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8594.265968750002,"end":8600.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8600.40846875,"end":8616.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8613.368468750003,"end":8637.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8626.159718750001,"end":8626.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8626.26096875,"end":8626.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8626.328468750002,"end":8626.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8626.379093750002,"end":8626.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8630.10846875,"end":8631.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8632.52159375,"end":8633.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8637.449093750001,"end":8639.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8637.90471875,"end":8645.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8647.08471875,"end":8675.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8675.35034375,"end":8676.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8676.632843750001,"end":8683.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8682.77534375,"end":8694.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8693.49096875,"end":8701.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8699.059718750003,"end":8699.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8701.101593750001,"end":8706.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8704.172843750002,"end":8705.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8707.176593750002,"end":8713.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8713.11659375,"end":8718.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8721.38534375,"end":8725.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8731.915343750003,"end":8735.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8736.539093750001,"end":8737.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8739.660968750002,"end":8740.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8740.859093750001,"end":8851.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8851.137218750002,"end":8937.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8938.684718750003,"end":8943.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8943.679718750001,"end":8963.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8963.79471875,"end":8973.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8971.118468750003,"end":8971.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8973.51471875,"end":8978.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8978.56034375,"end":8979.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8979.910343750002,"end":9002.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8998.03409375,"end":8998.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9003.012218750002,"end":9089.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9089.800343750001,"end":9096.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9097.15784375,"end":9101.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9101.74784375,"end":9107.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9107.164718750002,"end":9121.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9121.137218750002,"end":9135.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9130.637843750003,"end":9130.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9130.840343750002,"end":9130.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9135.902843750002,"end":9157.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9157.08096875,"end":9182.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9172.352843750003,"end":9172.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9182.410343750002,"end":9185.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9185.32971875,"end":9194.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9193.39596875,"end":9199.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9196.46721875,"end":9196.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9197.496593750002,"end":9198.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9199.57221875,"end":9226.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9226.21784375,"end":9234.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9235.49909375,"end":9236.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9236.39346875,"end":9239.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9239.07659375,"end":9239.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9239.093468750001,"end":9239.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9239.12721875,"end":9248.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9249.235343750002,"end":9260.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9260.879093750002,"end":9261.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9262.144718750002,"end":9286.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9286.32659375,"end":9288.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9288.030968750001,"end":9288.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9290.44409375,"end":9291.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9292.570343750001,"end":9294.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9303.08346875,"end":9304.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9305.800343750001,"end":9306.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9309.73221875,"end":9310.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9310.79534375,"end":9324.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9325.155968750001,"end":9336.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9337.390343750001,"end":9337.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9337.980968750002,"end":9340.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9340.039718750002,"end":9394.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9394.664093750001,"end":9395.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9396.01409375,"end":9396.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9396.06471875,"end":9399.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9399.524093750002,"end":9401.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9402.29159375,"end":9403.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9404.77221875,"end":9405.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9405.98721875,"end":9406.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9407.23596875,"end":9407.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9408.214718750001,"end":9410.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9411.184718750003,"end":9411.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9411.809093750002,"end":9413.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9413.699093750001,"end":9443.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9443.702843750001,"end":9481.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9479.12346875,"end":9479.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9479.984093750001,"end":9526.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9527.200343750003,"end":9530.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9531.38534375,"end":9532.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9533.17409375,"end":9534.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9534.92909375,"end":9539.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9539.265968750002,"end":9558.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9554.993468750003,"end":9570.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9570.315968750001,"end":9570.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9570.34971875,"end":9570.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9570.77159375,"end":9570.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9570.957218750002,"end":9572.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9572.425343750001,"end":9572.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9572.543468750002,"end":9572.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9572.57721875,"end":9579.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9580.609718750002,"end":9580.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9581.06534375,"end":9593.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9592.371593750002,"end":9598.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9596.97846875,"end":9597.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9598.24409375,"end":9600.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9599.15534375,"end":9606.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9604.859093750001,"end":9646.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9647.890343750001,"end":9654.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9653.94846875,"end":9656.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9655.028468750003,"end":9672.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9670.199093750001,"end":9671.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9671.565968750001,"end":9676.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9673.06784375,"end":9673.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9677.20221875,"end":9683.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9677.30346875,"end":9677.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9678.83909375,"end":9679.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9683.20971875,"end":9686.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9684.40784375,"end":9685.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9685.89284375,"end":9704.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9704.62409375,"end":9709.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9709.36596875,"end":9713.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9713.601593750001,"end":9728.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9723.422843750002,"end":9726.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9726.679718750001,"end":9727.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9728.012843750003,"end":9728.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9729.12659375,"end":9738.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9735.35346875,"end":9735.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9736.21409375,"end":9744.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9739.065968750001,"end":9739.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9741.495968750001,"end":9741.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9743.26784375,"end":9743.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9744.567218750002,"end":9761.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9757.72971875,"end":9758.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9758.87721875,"end":9760.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9761.340968750003,"end":9778.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9762.45471875,"end":9763.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9780.156593750002,"end":9780.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9781.03409375,"end":9797.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9786.45096875,"end":9786.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9786.46784375,"end":9786.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9786.94034375,"end":9787.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9790.905968750001,"end":9790.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9790.922843750002,"end":9791.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9797.16659375,"end":9797.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9797.63909375,"end":9799.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9800.89596875,"end":9800.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9800.946593750003,"end":9802.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9804.000968750002,"end":9843.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9845.68221875,"end":9847.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9848.078468750002,"end":9850.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9855.65534375,"end":9856.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9856.785968750002,"end":9857.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9858.743468750003,"end":9859.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9863.35034375,"end":9864.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9864.329093750002,"end":9864.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9864.34596875,"end":9880.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9878.774093750002,"end":9880.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9880.84971875,"end":9880.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9880.96784375,"end":9918.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9918.49784375,"end":9928.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9930.32721875,"end":9931.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9931.339718750001,"end":9934.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9934.00596875,"end":9935.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9935.44034375,"end":9939.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9939.38909375,"end":9941.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9941.515343750001,"end":9942.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9942.34221875,"end":9965.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9965.76471875,"end":9969.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9968.009093750003,"end":9988.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9989.05221875,"end":9989.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9990.402218750001,"end":9997.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9997.624718750001,"end":9999.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9999.852218750002,"end":10007.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10004.745968750001,"end":10008.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10008.00284375,"end":10014.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10014.68534375,"end":10021.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10014.887843750003,"end":10015.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10018.212218750003,"end":10021.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10021.06409375,"end":10021.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10021.08096875,"end":10021.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10021.13159375,"end":10035.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10035.00284375,"end":10060.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10060.872218750003,"end":10064.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10064.770343750002,"end":10070.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10070.89596875,"end":10072.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10072.245968750001,"end":10085.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10072.617218750001,"end":10072.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10085.914718750002,"end":10093.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10093.47471875,"end":10098.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10097.71034375,"end":10107.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10105.72596875,"end":10112.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10112.57721875,"end":10140.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10133.164718750002,"end":10133.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10133.519093750001,"end":10133.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10140.42096875,"end":10140.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10140.45471875,"end":10141.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10140.640343750001,"end":10141.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10141.99034375,"end":10142.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10142.41221875,"end":10143.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10143.67784375,"end":10145.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10145.871593750002,"end":10145.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10145.972843750002,"end":10146.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10146.00659375,"end":10146.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10146.05721875,"end":10149.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10147.37346875,"end":10156.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10156.18221875,"end":10162.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10163.45534375,"end":10168.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10168.63596875,"end":10169.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10168.66971875,"end":10204.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10204.832843750002,"end":10231.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10231.17471875,"end":10244.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10245.50159375,"end":10257.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10257.36471875,"end":10264.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10265.042843750001,"end":10285.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10284.58409375,"end":10302.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10292.009093750003,"end":10292.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10302.84284375,"end":10327.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10327.31159375,"end":10361.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10361.078468750002,"end":10390.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10370.27534375,"end":10370.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10370.933468750001,"end":10371.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10386.42471875,"end":10390.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10390.12034375,"end":10391.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10391.132843750001,"end":10414.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10414.875968750002,"end":10425.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10424.460968750001,"end":10432.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10432.76346875,"end":10434.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10441.89284375,"end":10451.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10451.477843750003,"end":10452.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10452.827843750001,"end":10453.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10456.08471875,"end":10458.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10458.39659375,"end":10459.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10459.39221875,"end":10459.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10461.88971875,"end":10464.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10472.875343750002,"end":10475.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10476.672218750002,"end":10477.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10482.86534375,"end":10483.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10483.422218750002,"end":10515.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10483.43909375,"end":10483.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10516.125968750002,"end":10517.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10518.57284375,"end":10520.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10521.188468750002,"end":10524.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10524.664718750002,"end":10532.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10532.07284375,"end":10534.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10532.71409375,"end":10533.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10535.211593750002,"end":10535.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10536.93284375,"end":10548.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10548.964718750001,"end":10549.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10549.69034375,"end":10555.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10555.57971875,"end":10563.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10563.91596875,"end":10569.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10569.77159375,"end":10573.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10573.500968750002,"end":10576.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10573.73721875,"end":10574.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10576.875968750002,"end":10591.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10580.06534375,"end":10581.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10592.097218750001,"end":10640.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10640.91659375,"end":10644.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10645.692218750002,"end":10648.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10648.965968750003,"end":10652.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10653.184718750003,"end":10656.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10657.15034375,"end":10670.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10671.66284375,"end":10674.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10675.054718750001,"end":10684.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10684.926593750002,"end":10686.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10687.42409375,"end":10717.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10717.69784375,"end":10721.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10722.203468750002,"end":10742.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10742.26784375,"end":10761.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10761.589718750001,"end":10768.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10767.05721875,"end":10770.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10768.609718750002,"end":10788.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10773.030968750001,"end":10773.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10775.74784375,"end":10775.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10775.76471875,"end":10777.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10778.160968750002,"end":10780.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10784.539718750002,"end":10784.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10784.55659375,"end":10786.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10787.374718750001,"end":10789.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10788.89346875,"end":10791.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10791.644093750001,"end":10793.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10791.69471875,"end":10795.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10793.922218750002,"end":10795.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10795.879718750002,"end":10797.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10797.837218750003,"end":10802.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10802.562218750001,"end":10804.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10805.312843750002,"end":10813.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10813.61534375,"end":10813.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10813.750343750002,"end":10828.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10819.487843750001,"end":10819.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10819.57221875,"end":10819.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10819.62284375,"end":10819.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10819.707218750002,"end":10820.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10821.32721875,"end":10821.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10821.968468750001,"end":10822.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10823.31846875,"end":10823.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10823.47034375,"end":10823.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10829.106593750003,"end":10829.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10829.12346875,"end":10829.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10829.190968750001,"end":10829.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10829.27534375,"end":10831.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10829.29221875,"end":10829.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10831.85721875,"end":10833.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10833.91596875,"end":10855.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10856.089718750001,"end":10860.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10861.253468750001,"end":10867.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10867.227218750002,"end":10872.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10872.036593750003,"end":10904.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10880.305343750002,"end":10883.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10902.968468750001,"end":10911.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10911.844718750002,"end":10917.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10916.67096875,"end":10917.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10917.683468750001,"end":10917.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10918.004093750002,"end":10923.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10921.51409375,"end":10928.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10928.972843750002,"end":10931.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10931.942843750003,"end":10938.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10932.887843750003,"end":10933.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10937.579093750002,"end":10950.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10938.304718750001,"end":10938.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10938.422843750002,"end":10939.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10940.565968750001,"end":10940.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10950.927218750003,"end":10951.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10951.922843750002,"end":10973.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10972.493468750003,"end":10974.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10975.379093750002,"end":10977.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10978.61909375,"end":10987.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10985.74034375,"end":10991.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10989.621593750002,"end":10990.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10991.96721875,"end":10999.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10995.629093750002,"end":10996.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10997.957843750002,"end":11001.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11001.974093750003,"end":11002.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11002.227218750002,"end":11003.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11003.661593750003,"end":11004.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11004.03284375,"end":11009.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11010.074093750001,"end":11010.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11010.85034375,"end":11014.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11013.28034375,"end":11016.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11016.21659375,"end":11019.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11016.23346875,"end":11016.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11020.148468750001,"end":11022.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11020.33409375,"end":11021.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11021.71784375,"end":11024.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11023.08471875,"end":11044.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11029.446593750003,"end":11029.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11029.46346875,"end":11029.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11029.51409375,"end":11029.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11029.547843750002,"end":11030.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11034.74534375,"end":11034.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11034.89721875,"end":11037.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11044.634093750003,"end":11047.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11050.23659375,"end":11058.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11064.22596875,"end":11065.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11066.26784375,"end":11067.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11069.457218750002,"end":11070.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11070.351593750001,"end":11070.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11070.70596875,"end":11093.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11093.993468750003,"end":11113.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11115.458468750003,"end":11152.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11152.54971875,"end":11154.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11155.48596875,"end":11160.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11161.324718750002,"end":11162.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11163.56909375,"end":11164.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11164.868468750003,"end":11165.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11165.03721875,"end":11165.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11165.05409375,"end":11165.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11170.53846875,"end":11175.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11175.516593750002,"end":11223.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11224.302218750003,"end":11237.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11237.32971875,"end":11271.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11271.88971875,"end":11283.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11283.027218750001,"end":11328.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11328.47159375,"end":11334.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11331.914093750001,"end":11331.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11331.964718750001,"end":11332.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11332.032218750002,"end":11333.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11333.550968750002,"end":11336.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11334.765968750002,"end":11334.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11334.90096875,"end":11334.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11334.95159375,"end":11335.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11336.132843750001,"end":11340.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11343.034718750001,"end":11369.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11369.66346875,"end":11372.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11464.180343750002,"end":11464.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11464.602218750002,"end":11464.83846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1292.185,"end":1292.851,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":1713.024,"end":1713.604,"text":"首先介紹國立故宮博物院蕭宗煌院長"},{"start":1732.881,"end":1742.986,"text":"副院長黃永泰副院長于佩錦主秘徐孝德綜合規劃處處長張蠶娟書畫文獻處處長何妍泉器務處處長吳曉雲登錄保存處處長林國平行銷業務處處長王耀峰展示服務處處長王雲芬"},{"start":1759.434,"end":1778.559,"text":"南院處處長彭子誠數位資訊室主任謝俊科秘書室主任王珍珠人事室主任吳婉華主計室主任林美堯政風室主任趙立金好以上那麼現在我們就請蕭院長來進行報告報告時間8分鐘"},{"start":1794.149,"end":1812.408,"text":"主席各位在現場和線上的委員先進大家好首先感謝大安及教育文化委員會對故宮博物院預算的支持與鼓勵表達成績的協議以下緊究本院113年業務報告114年工作重點報告"},{"start":1817.373,"end":1834.351,"text":"113年業務概況專業服務快遇整合故宮採多元面相策展113年推出11檔特展辦理快業教育推廣活動推廣博物館故宮校園大使及青少年文化大使博物館"},{"start":1836.092,"end":1858.298,"text":"開放資料深度應用：邀請教學現場工農研發AI STEM教案：配合展覽節慶：辦理分明分眾多元形態教育推廣活動開放多元擴大參與：促進更多零受眾參與展覽活動：設立兒童及青年事務推動執行及策展執行會"},{"start":1859.958,"end":1883.13,"text":"年輕世代的能量開拓青年業務在開放多元面向仔細充實數位內容發展線上運用文物說明結合數位典藏系統透過稀釋整合提供更多的一個線上服務那另外以臺灣危機媒體協會合作共同推廣故宮open data價值運用促進文物資料開放經用"},{"start":1884.37,"end":1904.089,"text":"另外以META官方合作辦理活動．達到資料開放與應用的功效．同時攜手地方管事辦理新媒體藝術展覽．例如以桃園中藝人海宮．海客館南洋博物館台南美術館平東六都文化園區等六館推出多檔展覽．"},{"start":1905.23,"end":1930.312,"text":"三、友善共同、文化平衡本院的北部延期圖書院縣大樓整建將在113年就今年12月進攻將作為第二展覽館那另外為了優化北部延期的無障礙系統完成都市計畫變工及多數設計審議等程序將加速辦理資產入口無障礙連通道的一個新建工程"},{"start":1931.113,"end":1956.046,"text":"南部延期國保館文物秀展示建設計畫工程完成目前進度板子31.3有點超前那預計113年12月可以完成太陽明光電停車並連運轉然後提供作用的停車服務另外二館的工程公共藝術計畫改善南部的指標系統然後優化南部延期系統等等也在持續進行中"},{"start":1957.547,"end":1971.154,"text":"另外更新曼理西英故宮計畫提供友善的便利的軟硬體設施服務打造意義清淨的博物館前年的經費執行現在是84.12若是友善平權關懷若是族群經濟學生"},{"start":1978.098,"end":2005.311,"text":"部分的話我們辦理了一連串的一個弱智跟弱靈執行的教育活動例如故宮友誼師那113年服務2800多人次116個學校那百萬遊子悠遊故宮計畫截至8月31號共有137所學校8489名學生參與那另外故宮文物教育相的活動也將行回92所學校"},{"start":2005.911,"end":2023.723,"text":"是永續發展接軌國際為了厚實文化外交影響力辦理大美不言然後萬國精良萬國精良的話就是那個日本重生戰那配合辦理亞洲重生業那另外以外貿協會繼續辦理東京"},{"start":2028.067,"end":2051.429,"text":"辦理東京形象展然後再辦理德國形象展未來會繼續跟外貿協會合作辦理日本的那個大阪世博在優化保存環境方面南部河沿區庫房北部河沿區區庫房已完成無限射頻的一個技術RFID的一個管理機制並強化數位點場管理系統"},{"start":2053.311,"end":2076.861,"text":"在114年的工作重點因故宮100plus激光開來故宮在1920北京成立歷經千辛萬難搬到臺北故宮那114年是故宮建業100週年所以我們辦理的系列活動在今年8月的話百年NG Logo的一個競賽那已經完成成為"},{"start":2078.021,"end":2106.802,"text":"我們所謂的那個故宮的不管是專屬展覽規劃文創設計行銷等的使用那也象徵故宮百年宴慶的活動已經開始推動二專業服務快業整合一百一十四年度將推出十三檔特展算是一個大展年透過特展人導覽然後增加宴場的文物的曝光力然後也讓更多人可以分享那另外辦理分零分眾多元型態教育推廣活動"},{"start":2107.823,"end":2127.575,"text":"應用典藏文物不同領域跨越合作另外的話就是規劃辦理相關的展覽譬如說參與相關的展覽譬如說臺北國際書展國際旅展然後在日本舉辦國際旅展等重要展覽活動開拓我們的課員"},{"start":2129.717,"end":2143.954,"text":"開放多元擴大民眾參與本院為特長兒校及生化青年參與次序辦理策展執行會兒童及青年推動執行會然後辦理故宮校園大使青少年文化大使等培育活動"},{"start":2145.095,"end":2171.808,"text":"另外,將故宮文物開發前世資料以AI-ready Data的方式批次上傳至維基百科．故宮的數位資料成為各種AI、語言、學習、信念的模具．這個部分的話,我們會再導入一個自主學習的機制．提供更多的數位服務．文化共榮．友善共榮、文化平權"},{"start":2173.749,"end":2192.956,"text":"北部縣區114年將進行無障礙連通道的一個新建工程逐步完成無障礙的動線系統南部縣區的話114年將完成二管新建工程主體鋼構主力及樓板交駐那戶外景觀設施及公共藝術創作也都在進行中"},{"start":2193.776,"end":2221.697,"text":"此外就是故宮持續辦理東京木林的一個計畫包括故宮有一隻鞋子還有北苑百萬鞋子由故宮計畫那另外以跨域障礙處莫美麗行為展等活動提升文化藝術的口徑性五永續發展接軌國際為了推動國際化交流所以我們明年的話就是有兩個"},{"start":2223.098,"end":2241.786,"text":"特別展覽一個是到捷克國家博物館的展覽一個到法國凱伯朗尼博物館那相關的展覽作為跟合約都在簽署當中另外跟國際知名博物館屆展退出千年神韻北宋西安雅籍江戶胡適之會然後另外明年馬來西亞人也會辦相關的特展"},{"start":2242.606,"end":2269.685,"text":"另外在地方方面以蘭陽博物館跟澎湖博物館的話我們會持續辦理僱傭國寶出遊區的活動在數位媒體方面的話我們也會以各個單位合作另外剛也提到跟臺灣維基百科合作舉辦地方維基百科的編輯工作然後增加民眾互動的機會另外以亞洲各國持續辦理亞洲藝術節促進亞洲各國的文化交流"},{"start":2270.825,"end":2294.897,"text":"在114之年將進行庫房的搬遷、擴充運輸電廠空間、升級寶藏環境體制優化管理設施另外的話就是在古籍數位化的工作的話大家很關注我們會有廚藝進行那磁氣庫改善違規的前置整治作業現在都在進行之中最後故宮面對下一個"},{"start":2295.757,"end":2312.463,"text":"百年要強化國際文化交流蓄積國際能量之外的話那也要推展台灣文化展示力讓故宮成為華夏文物的專業博物館的典範同時形造故宮不僅是台灣的故宮也對故宮世界的故宮更是全民的故宮"},{"start":2313.283,"end":2326.704,"text":"再次特別感謝國研隊本院的監督與支持故宮將會兢兢業業讓預算進行有效的準確的應用那各項的業務推動也會在委員的指導下我們努力來進行謝謝大家"},{"start":2330.14,"end":2339.546,"text":"好謝謝蕭院長口頭的報告那現在我們要開始進行尋答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午11點30分"},{"start":2345.149,"end":2364.648,"text":"委員如果有提示臨時提案其餘上午10點30分提出並於本會委員范雲質詢結束前結束後進行臨時提案處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":2375.396,"end":2378.378,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請蕭院長有請蕭院長好蕭院長今天故宮的部分我針對幾個層次來跟您請教首先上個月新聞媒體報導說台灣最強博物館故宮輸了故宮只排第6名院長您認為這代表什麼"},{"start":2398.401,"end":2417.834,"text":"故宮的確有很多精進的空間可是當然沒有錯中正紀念堂要升為第一名那其中一個原因的話當然是因為國際聯管現在在整修所以整個課員的話就跑到我現在是講是說其實這代表心目中大家認為故宮是第一啊"},{"start":2419.096,"end":2436.423,"text":"就我們清楚大家明白認知會認為故宮至始至終你講到博物館我覺得以我們中華民國來講講到博物館100個人問我一定是第一個優先推薦故宮嘛那所以媒體才會講是說大家心目中的第一名但是居然是排在第6名這就代表說我們的實體參觀人數其實是下降那再來我請教"},{"start":2443.888,"end":2470.422,"text":"我們的這個我跟觀光署這邊來調的資料其實也一樣我們這觀光旅客參觀的人數我們故宮也是第6名代表是說國外觀光客來他其實他也是往這個也沒有到故宮首選那還有前瞻預算裡面有針對故宮數位典藏庫編列了第4期有編列將近2000萬但是典藏網站瀏覽次數"},{"start":2472.603,"end":2489.535,"text":"院長有概念嗎?從最高峰一年有300多萬次的瀏覽人數到現在今年一到七月目前幾次?跟委員報告就是的確就是網站的瀏覽數字有降低降低多少?你有知道嗎?"},{"start":2491.656,"end":2512.47,"text":"降低的比例我不是要做這個小學堂考試啦但是今年降低的比例非常的低到目前1到7月就我這邊同仁給的資料是54萬次從300多萬一年變到現在三分之二年過去了只有54萬次可能將近一年不會到百萬次"},{"start":2512.97,"end":2513.771,"text":"這個部分的話同人編這個不太合理吧"},{"start":2544.203,"end":2564.282,"text":"委員好我是數位資訊室主任謝俊科第一次發言那個數量的減少有很多的原因一個原因就是最近那個計量機制從改成了GA4那另外還有很多其他的原因比如說我們的open data大量的開放之後還有那個資料庫越改越好用之後很多那個觀眾是"},{"start":2566.304,"end":2566.324,"text":"院長．"},{"start":2585.447,"end":2614.449,"text":"其實本期今天提出來我們還講我們心目中的第一名是故宮但故宮不管是瀏覽次數就虛擬次數以及實體次數目前為止都是大幅衰退那你剛講到網站的部分我再提一個這兩天我們日本的友人傳訊給我他問說故宮有針對不同的國籍的人有不同的差別待遇嗎還是他覺得說日本人跟其他國籍的人對於故宮的興趣不同"},{"start":2615.812,"end":2644.561,"text":"來我們看一下這個是我們的故宮精品網站的網頁首頁中文版沒有問題有一個這個本月主題商品來我們找英文版也有本月主題商品popular topic那換成日本版本月主題商品變了那我們再來看法文版也是一樣本月主題商品都是這一些再來看韓文版也是這樣子"},{"start":2645.765,"end":2670.064,"text":"那我們就拉回來我這日本朋友就問我就說奇怪中文版英文版來我們看一下中文版首頁中文版月刊這一些典藏佛經正知道了英文版也是一樣典藏佛經那我們看日文版片蛋糕是日本人比較愛吃蛋糕還是故宮覺得說日本人"},{"start":2671.215,"end":2700.332,"text":"消費力而且這個蛋糕喔我們再點進去他不能訂他說貨到才會通知你所以他是一個沒有上架的商品跟委員報告的確故宮的網站在即時性我們在即時性上面是有改進的空間的確對但是怎麼會有差別待遇因為日本朋友問我我真的第一時間回答不出來我就說我來了解一下我也實際去操作這個是我早上請同仁在操作的畫面"},{"start":2701.403,"end":2721.917,"text":"所以部長欸院長我今天提出來只是講是說當網站沒有那麼的螺絲沒有那麼酸緊精緻度連這個部分都會有出錯的時候我們真的很難是說你之後接下來數位前瞻還有第5期希望要再編2700萬我們該不該支持因為那個數位網站的話我們是我要幫你這個部分的話我們會會會所以這是廠商的責任我們的責任"},{"start":2730.595,"end":2731.436,"text":"我覺得你這樣解釋越糟喔請謹慎"},{"start":2746.545,"end":2766.394,"text":"因為這樣意思日本的遊客就覺得是說我們怎樣日本人比較不愛文物愛吃愛蛋糕所以你給中文版你給英文版你給法文版都是我們故宮的文物然後結果到給日本的時候你這樣有沒有歧視的意味啊是日本朋友問我所以說我在講是說我要來了解"},{"start":2767.054,"end":2786.748,"text":"所以我覺得沒有解釋還好我就說姑且啊這可能是程式錯誤廠商沒有更正趕快更正我們輸了但如果說你講是說這是刻意為之這樣就不對囉對故宮的輸了我就是往這樣這不是刻意為之吧對沒有我們不是刻意為之來謝謝院長那趕快改進好不好是來院長另外部分其實比較重要是明年是故宮百年"},{"start":2787.248,"end":2815.803,"text":"那我們也知道是說我們有文物百選及其故事要到捷克首展我先簡單說明一下捷克它其實是一個重要的國家第一它是歐洲國家歐盟國家第二1000萬的人口但是它的觀光旅次有多少在去年2200萬它的觀光旅客是它本國人口的兩倍那換言之很多歐洲歐美旅客會喜歡選擇捷克去觀光啊"},{"start":2816.583,"end":2841.532,"text":"我們的這個百年的這個競選展目前我們要前往明年9月到12月對不對我覺得這是一個重要大事因為翠玉白菜清明上河圖這些重要文物也都會前往嘛那我們現在是不是聽說因為之前他們的眾議院以及參議院院長也都有來我們的中華民國來訪問那我們現在是不是有計劃也要邀請我們的立法院院長或副院長前往"},{"start":2842.445,"end":2870.316,"text":"昨天我有跟捷克在台的代表見面他說據他了解的話就是捷方已經邀請韓國瑜院長就是說他們已經表達這樣的一個...捷方邀請韓國瑜院長我覺得這很有意義喔因為他有可能就變成是韓國瑜院長因為到目前為止他上任都還沒有出國訪問嘛那當然有沒有可能變成是明年不一定但至少以韓國瑜院長的高度還有就是捷克現在相對跟我們中華民國的關係良好"},{"start":2870.896,"end":2882.008,"text":"有沒有可能韓國瑜院長也到他們的國會去做一個演講因為他的參議院議長或是眾議院議長來也都有演講嘛是不是我們也是共同努力啊那還有"},{"start":2888.174,"end":2913.996,"text":"因為我們的文物翠玉白菜清明上河圖這個東西我們一講連國人可能都不一定有親眼看過那這個一講大家都知道的我相信歐美的人士也都很清楚這個文物的價值所以這是不是應該要利用這個機會把國際的民生或者是說讓觀光相關的人士也都一起去參觀所以這是不是應該不只是故宮單打獨鬥"},{"start":2915.417,"end":2936.994,"text":"觀光部．交通部觀光署．外交部是不是一起過來努力?院長您覺得呢?哪一位政委?使者政委這邊使者政委 我們前文化部長對對對那他已經有在做規劃了是不是?他有在跟故宮 要故宮去報告 所以我們會去處理 會去規劃他什麼時候要故宮報告?"},{"start":2942.735,"end":2959.973,"text":"我們議會院長已經第一次報告過了但是只是報告那個展覽的內容對 報告展覽內容展覽內容當然是專業規劃這沒有問題啊本期現在講的是說我們怎麼樣利用這就像闖老街的概念嘛"},{"start":2960.253,"end":2976.271,"text":"所以這就像是今天我們有一個國際巨星前往捷克4個月而且又是100年盛大盛世如果說他在捷克第一能夠吸引更多歐美人士前往捷克也去看我們的文物這是好第二我們能夠怎麼樣在那個利用這個"},{"start":2977.752,"end":2997.339,"text":"國際巨星來把我們的比如說韓國院長邀請去來做一個我們國家的一個國立展現也是好第三怎麼樣能夠讓觀光的人士從看了我們的文物之後進一步想說啊看不夠一百件文物看不夠我想要來故宮博物院來中華民國再看這是三好啊"},{"start":2998.685,"end":3025.762,"text":"所以我們才想說要交通部要外交部一起來第一次第一次的第一次的會議的話當然跟政委報告第二次的報告的話是院長級的報告所以我們就會報告那個那在報告之前是不是也邀請由故宮這邊來邀集外交部邀集交通部共同來討論他們能夠出什麼力至少讓他們在明年的規劃上面也有一些外交計劃外交預算觀光預算一起共同來"},{"start":3026.946,"end":3046.337,"text":"人家講說堆疊嘛堆疊上去能夠讓這個能量更加發光發熱啊一加一大於三有沒有有沒有可能是這個部分的話我們來努力好那就請院長這邊來召集外交部交通部共同來言商我們希望把這個餅做大是讓國際都看到"},{"start":3047.47,"end":3048.531,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請蕭院長?請蕭院長"},{"start":3073.444,"end":3100.616,"text":"委員長我想剛剛孟楷委員也特別關注因為故宮明年就是100週年所以百年故宮是值得期待的那我記得我以前在第9任當這個教育文化委員的時候每次提到故宮我覺得那是我們故宮非常大的一個驕傲因為它不管是外國旅客的觀光或大家的喜愛度其實都是非常高的但是數據會說話剛剛孟楷已經特別提到的今年暑假全國的博物館"},{"start":3101.576,"end":3119.824,"text":"只跟國務院來比故宮是排第7這故宮是排第7我很難想像故宮竟然輸給我們臺灣科學教育館那以外國觀光客來說這是故宮存在一個非常重要的一個價值你看他的喜好度是下降的然後來台觀光客的排名過去在105年的時候我覺得故宮都是排前三但是你現在來說的話呢如果108的話大概故宮是可以排第9到106到108但你會發現他的喜好"},{"start":3131.99,"end":3133.913,"text":"為什麼今年來故宮的人氣會下跌?你很簡單的你自己分析的理由是什麼?"},{"start":3149.726,"end":3166.423,"text":"因為博物館在整個旅遊生態上面的話就是比較屬於後面一點怎麼會呢以前都是前三啊以前都是前三啊所以說它不應該是一個旅遊上面但是在旅遊的一個興旺的"},{"start":3167.324,"end":3188.775,"text":"保和度的時候最後都會在博物館那我們就以故宮來跟故宮自己來比好了那我們105年的時候呢我們剛剛提到外國觀客的吸引率是非常高的北院他大概是外籍訪客大概占65%南院這是我們一直要提提振的我們我想院長你也花了非常多的心思在南院可是你看數據會說話那個時候是3%"},{"start":3191.476,"end":3205.043,"text":"但是我們到112年的時候呢外籍關口當然我們人數足是下降完全是不能幫沒有辦法跟105來比了這個東西一定有非常大的落差我們只看比率這樣比較準本月呢還是有46%但是呢南院已經降到1.38%這個是而且他的人數啊13000那個連北院的零頭都不到啊"},{"start":3213.408,"end":3230.42,"text":"那你有沒有分析過為什麼因為你們也做了非常多我們往下看你看他那時候是亞洲博物館而且我記得那時候我們就已經開始認為南越那個定位到底在哪裡你跟很多國家辦了很多的交流做了很多的努力然後我們往下看然後呢為什麼沒有辦法吸引所以說這1.3萬連零頭都不到我們往下再繼續看"},{"start":3234.162,"end":3255.597,"text":"所以你看過去來說我們新南向的時候我們也在南越舉辦了很多亞洲藝術節但是你會發現一般來說東南亞旅客完全不買單因為在他們自己的國家看就好了為什麼要到這個地方所以你過去辦了泰國展辦了很多的展其實是很多人是會有一些的批評的我們再往下看因為時間很短那你如果去觀光客的話院長你可以告訴我嗎你如果去觀光客"},{"start":3259.58,"end":3264.621,"text":"你去了北院之後呢你會去想去南院嗎?這比例高不高?"},{"start":3266.865,"end":3291.177,"text":"現在越來越多的國際遊客,尤其是專業的博物館人士都到南院,因為他們發現...好吧好啦,你如果說這麼多人到南院去,你告訴我如果從桃園機場出來的話,你怎麼到南院?往前面一個,你怎麼到南院?這的確是當初在規劃重要的一個文化設施沒有去完整考量的一個配套...那你現在想到改變的方式了嗎?"},{"start":3292.077,"end":3319.948,"text":"你這樣做從高鐵做到嘉義太保出來之後來我院長你有沒有去考慮過你的接駁班次當中你的接駁班次一般來說你只有中文表你沒有英文而且你英文寫的也很奇怪你的班次表是30分鐘是一般30分鐘是一般但是你的英文裡面的schedule裡面寫的shuttle comes every 20 minutes所以到底是幾十分鐘還是三十分鐘你的中文班次給我寫30到底英文"},{"start":3320.848,"end":3325.149,"text":"而且你告訴我們那時候大張旗鼓的我們都寄予非常大期望的這個五分車有沒有 糖廠的這個五分車那時候的我們的院長還有副院長全部過去然後告訴我們我們可以我們可以振興多少的這個嘉義的觀光但是你會看看現在來說只剩下平常要預約現在只剩下週末的時間"},{"start":3346.775,"end":3367.668,"text":"而且外國人還不知道你中文有五分稱外國的這個所謂的這個告訴大家怎麼樣到故宮說並沒有這個英文的一個一個一個簡介所以你如何吸引很多外國觀光客location location location這是我們買房地產的但同樣的交通交通交通你在南運的時候你竟然沒有讓步外國人都不會去而且班次很少而且你知道多少錢嗎"},{"start":3368.749,"end":3384.738,"text":"其實價錢不便宜欸350塊錢是不便宜的所以你當初大張旗鼓講這麼多當然你可以說這是不是你故宮館但是我要提醒當初你有花了這麼多錢你也配合宣傳也這麼大3600萬元整合動線9000多萬元蓋個景觀橋但是你們當初信誓旦旦說可以帶動更多的觀光客有嗎院長有嗎數據來這邊呈現在這個地方啊"},{"start":3394.76,"end":3411.471,"text":"的確在故宮整個國際化的情況的話是並沒有更好所以這個部分的話也是我們未來要努力的方向因為故宮這兩年來其實我們展覽辦得非常好可是為什麼沒有辦法吸引更多的民眾我就說嘛我剛剛講的那都是很細節的要吸引觀光客但是國外觀光客可是你卻沒有辦法像過去韓國來說以前是去年的北院是26萬人但是到南院的時候只有個位數而已"},{"start":3424.36,"end":3424.921,"text":"國立故宮博物院院長"},{"start":3443.628,"end":3462.221,"text":"呃上面的話就就螢幕上面的話是故宮的所謂的人氣三寶那當然中間的話毛公鼎是國寶然後翠白菜肉心是好了我們不管了我現在只是提醒了當然有很多人有不同的觀點他們認為正寶正正院的三寶最好是離就是在北院不要動因為大英國五管對"},{"start":3464.645,"end":3482.86,"text":"對啦 我是說過去很多世界各國都認為政店之寶就要不要亂移動但是你現在為了要吸引更多人來那你當然把移到這個嘉義我們只是提醒因為你根據故宮的這個南院來調查的話說實在的出遊家庭互動比較多啦學習也在贊成對於展覽有興趣的在南院"},{"start":3484.041,"end":3507.166,"text":"你的問卷裡面只有14.2%嘛所以我們也只希望你要搬過去請你小心一點包裝搬運簽收要小心不要出差錯高速公路好不好然後拿這個部分裡面這個是跟國外一些東西是不太一樣的這是本席再次的一個提醒跟各位報告三寶到故宮的話我們會整合那個航空公司然後高鐵然後跟協國跟旅館然後變成是一個套裝"},{"start":3511.227,"end":3530.053,"text":"我還是要提醒一下大家都要來看這個正院的三寶當他離開北院到南院的時候很多人遊客這麼多到北院看不到那三寶的時候你這樣的訊息你這樣的宣傳你還是院長還是要非常的注意一下好不好然後呢我們回到北院的這個所謂的玻璃圍牆你看嘛你說你不是你"},{"start":3530.433,"end":3551.048,"text":"大家認為他會破壞這歷史建築的一個外觀然後目前為止還在審議當中那你院長說你不是堅持設立這個玻璃入口亭那你是院長啊你說不是你也沒有很堅持啊你不能你不是很堅持是誰在這麼堅持根文報告因為當初的招標的時候是有4家廠商然後"},{"start":3551.989,"end":3569.159,"text":"這一個有做入口庭的廠商他得標得標之後的話他用禮約的話他就要做去送審的話臺北市第一次沒有過可是會議記錄上面的第二點好了院長那你贊不贊同啊院長你贊不贊同啊大玻璃亭你到底贊不贊同啊不是個人的問題這是一個專業的判斷"},{"start":3572.381,"end":3572.802,"text":"各位報告這個玻璃"},{"start":3589.124,"end":3595.066,"text":"當然大家都知道但是我是說他以如果還有這麼樣子的不管是從哪一個角度來去看已經有這麼多的爭議然後呢你說也不是你決定完全尊重專業我只告訴你這件事情到目前為止都還都還沒有一個定論你還是需要好好的對這件事情上裡面來做做一些更專業上的一個判斷甚至是安全上面的一個判斷因為現在氣候各方面"},{"start":3613.914,"end":3614.855,"text":"接下來我們有請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":3643.166,"end":3643.427,"text":"我們有請蕭院長"},{"start":3656.446,"end":3684.105,"text":"林委員長院長好在我開始今天的主題之前我先呼籲一下剛才這個科委員講到的台塘五分車跟故宮之間的一個聯動在觀光上的一個效益我想院裡面也知道我們過去是在嘉義在地服務也常常有機會帶大家到這個區塊就觀光的一個觀點其實它整個面包括故宮你們的這個故宮的這個"},{"start":3684.906,"end":3684.946,"text":"好,是"},{"start":3711.856,"end":3737.733,"text":"謝謝院長故宮是我國文化源流很重要的一部分在歷史上中華文化的珍稀幾乎都在故宮過去你們在經營上也為了拉近跟社會的距離拍了一些電影本席看過了經過也看到了歷史典藏的一個新生命當然你們最近在高鐵這邊的一些文宣本席也都有看"},{"start":3738.733,"end":3754.018,"text":"但是對於這個過去在經過的這個電影裡面我看到這個有一段字幕印象非常深刻那這個導演寫了在這座島上應該只有經過但是命運卻讓博物館留在這塊土地上"},{"start":3755.158,"end":3779.951,"text":"這可以是整個國人對故宮的一個觀點那也因為歷史的偶然那就成為整個的必然所以故宮在台灣落地生根那麼本席希望能夠透過這個質詢來跟大家探討故宮在我們這塊土地上的一個意義首先也是在你們的業務報告裡面有講到的就是故宮plus對於中華文化的一個推廣"},{"start":3782.152,"end":3808.624,"text":"我剛才所講的故宮是在民國14年11月11日成立的那承載了中華文化的寶庫114年民國114年就是明年我們有這個故宮100plus的主題當然你們的詮釋因為今年明年正逢100年未來你們還是要走向下一個世紀所以我們在承接過往"},{"start":3809.841,"end":3810.001,"text":"中華文化的傳統"},{"start":3833.066,"end":3842.506,"text":"整個這個文化認同跟民族認同還有國家認同的基礎不知道院長的觀點跟本席的觀點是不是可以做一個分享"},{"start":3844.555,"end":3862.342,"text":"我想全世界的一般的知識分子都知道故宮是一個中華文物最重要保障儲存的一個地方所以做一個博物館人的話如何把這些文物好好的保存然後把它做一個展示"},{"start":3863.482,"end":3878.434,"text":"甚至是做教育推廣然後讓全世界有更多的人來欣賞這些文物然後來認識這些文物同時認同我們的在臺灣的一個文化發展的脈絡我想這個是我們努力的目標"},{"start":3880.423,"end":3899.862,"text":"謝謝院長所以本席在這邊提醒跟建議當我們在談多元我們在談這個國際化那你的本體跟在地化也是非常的重要所以整個故宮的核心應該在這次的展覽向國人及國外的世界上所有的人來做一個宣示"},{"start":3900.763,"end":3920.815,"text":"好那接下來本席這邊談一下那個院長您在上個會期的這個報告裡面表示這兩岸的這個推動在文化方面其實是可以有助於大家彼此的了解那觀光也是有這樣一個角色所以那個在兩年前那個北京故宮的王院長其實有談到"},{"start":3922.616,"end":3945.254,"text":"兩岸是親兄弟北京跟目前我們的北院在交流上應該是沒有什麼障礙那過去兩岸的交流也很熱絡我們在2011年山水河壁皇宮望跟復春山居圖的這個特展也讓大家印象深刻那本席這邊想來請教未來兩岸的故宮是不是有重啟文化交流的可能性"},{"start":3947.61,"end":3971.913,"text":"兩岸的未來發展的話當然不是我個人可以預測可是故宮對於兩岸的文化交流的話其實我們是抱持著審慎樂觀的一個態度以目前來講的話當然是文物的交流的話就是沒有辦法實際上進行有的話也是另外一個另外一些個案可是在協助的交流上面的話事實上我們一直"},{"start":3972.393,"end":3998.605,"text":"一直有在進行因為我們同仁的話也有到大陸那邊去參加相關的學術研討這是有在進行但是商品上面的話可能會有一點點問題因為大陸金錢的情況非常非常的嚴重然後過去也曾經沒有經過故宮的同意然後就用故宮的名義來發行商品那如果可以透過一個"},{"start":4000.646,"end":4011.001,"text":"有效的合約機制來規範兩岸的一個文創商品的花型的話基本上來講的話我想如果大家彼此有一個信賴基礎的話應該是沒有問題"},{"start":4013.557,"end":4037.81,"text":"好的謝謝院長那至少在學術上我們都還是有一些聯動跟推動那在文創上我想過去的一個經驗應該也提供故宮這邊未來在跟他們交流的這個過程當中有很大的一個改進所以這個部分本席會持續追蹤所以在文創商品的部分希望故宮也能夠來更積極的一個推動兩岸的一個交流"},{"start":4039.07,"end":4062.077,"text":"所以這邊本席談一下故宮的文化交流是我國軟實力的輸出它有別於政府之間的往來所以有的時候在外交會有一些測試表態跟緩衝但是文化交流是民間的互動兩岸的交流其實有助於我們彼此的了解就像貴院最近有一檔"},{"start":4062.637,"end":4083.289,"text":"你們自己也很喜歡那很多這個遊客也很喜歡的應該是大美不言吧那你們就跟法國的Decorative Museum來做一個比較展示分析然後在當代的這樣一個物件上有一些新的詮釋那本席覺得這樣兩國跟"},{"start":4086.231,"end":4113.126,"text":"兩岸跟不同地方其實是可以做一個同樣時期那我們如何看待事情的這樣一個詮釋那我想這檔長的成功其實帶給我們很多的這個靈感所以這邊本席也再次呼籲跟提醒那兩岸的交流可以仿照你們現在很有創意而且非常專業的這樣一個展示那剛才院長這邊也提到過去的努力那本席會持續來追蹤"},{"start":4115.167,"end":4143.276,"text":"當然後面本席這邊還有很多對於硬體方面的一個進度的了解但是你們在報告裡面也有提到過所以這個本席會追蹤這個radio frequency的ID這個區塊在各個層面跟各個區塊裡面的一個進度那也請故宮會後我會跟你們所知也就是說目前你們在這個區塊大概做到一個什麼樣子的進度那工程的部分我想剛才我們"},{"start":4144.336,"end":4144.837,"text":"謝謝林倩琦委員接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員"},{"start":4172.227,"end":4174.127,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請院長好我們有請院長好院長早安我們有很多問題想跟你討論來下一頁在今年的3月7號當時故宮的業務報告裡面我就跟院長討論了關於兒童暨青年事務推動諮詢會的進度當時院長你笑了"},{"start":4199.032,"end":4220.325,"text":"當時我提醒院長只有研究生跟大學生其實代表性不足而且兒少的聲音不應該只有研究生跟大學生我們目前在最近度我們看到增加兩名高中生這個部分我要先給予肯定可是詳細的細節我想要再跟院長多加討論我想問一下目前這些學生代表所產生的方法是什麼"},{"start":4220.905,"end":4225.636,"text":"那還有就是他們開會的頻率還有就是他們可以參與到什麼樣層級的會議參與到什麼樣層級的討論這個部分我想要請院長說明一下"},{"start":4232.301,"end":4256.186,"text":"當然就是執行會的話是一個例會那例會的話討論的話就是對故宮的一些建議那當然就是說我們也有辦理因為不是只有這樣的一個活動而是我們有青少年大使有校園大使那這些培訓活動的話他們會回到學校裡面去辦一些活動那相關的資料的話我想我們可以送給委員這邊"},{"start":4259.473,"end":4284.41,"text":"親資會跟校園大使基本上是兩回事喔因為親資會原本的設定是希望故宮的很多事情如果他的牽扯層面是跟更多社會大眾有關我們可以透過親資會去聽到這些兒少代表的聲音跟透過你們的培力工作方或是透過相關演習進入校園推廣故宮的藝文活動這是兩回事我要問的是親資會組成方法招募的方法還有目前開會的狀況"},{"start":4287.492,"end":4289.783,"text":"還是我們請你們的同仁回答好了好不好"},{"start":4291.179,"end":4316.835,"text":"跟委員說一個說明親子會的部分的委員的部分因為有很多的一些青少年的部分從兒童因為北院的部分從兒少兒童的部分開始就有做不同的一些教育推廣活動所以在這個期間的部分有很多的名單的部分那我們會請我們展幅處的同仁這邊做一些推薦的部分他如果說相對的對於這一些藝文的部分有一些"},{"start":4317.375,"end":4329.342,"text":"而吸引力的部分他們就會列入這個名單裡面來進行那所以我們也會按照這樣的方式去處理這個部分的學生的參與的部分這個是甄選的方法那他們開會的頻率跟開會的內容跟成績可以到什麼樣的成績開會的頻率的話原則上我們是一年兩次可是我們的開會的頻率會依照我們的需求的部分會不斷的一個滾動式的修正"},{"start":4343.811,"end":4359.361,"text":"從3月到現在目前你們給我們的名單上這9名同學已經開過會了嗎他們已經開過第一次的會議然後另外的話我們有關一些展覽的部分或者是教育推廣的活動有關於青少年的部分我們都會邀請他們來參與那他們的部分會依照他們實際喜愛的狀況跟他們的出勤的有需求的部分他們會來參與的部分有時候會來看展覽有時候會參與教育推廣活動"},{"start":4368.907,"end":4391.886,"text":"你又岔題了啦 你又岔題 我要問的是親子會 你們不要一直扯到活動因為看起來你們對親子會的認定跟這個定位還是搞不清楚推廣活動是另外一回事 但是親子會如何從他們參與你們的活動提供給你們在策展方面的意見 在企劃方面的意見因為從前面好幾位委員都問到故宮參觀的人次一直都沒有上升 而且相關的狀況越來越不好"},{"start":4392.566,"end":4409.236,"text":"如果兒少確實是一個我們未來要服務的重點對象那請聽他們的聲音看見他們的需求或是理解他們對故宮的想像因為完全是不同世代我相信他們親自會所能夠提出來的聲音跟代表性絕對可以讓你們作為參考甚至我剛聽到你們說選出來的方法是透過已經來參加故宮活動的兒少裡面然後你們同仁去看記得不錯記得不錯然後就問他有沒有意願這個我覺得聽起來有點"},{"start":4420.203,"end":4443.095,"text":"怪怪的我不知道你自己感覺如何為什麼會說怪怪的你覺得呢跟委員做一個說明這個第4屆的部分其實他們已經參加過會議了親資會的部分他已經召開過會議了那我們也是希望能藉由不同的推廣活動讓他們更加的了解還是沒有回答我的問題可是今天主席絕對不會給我們超時那我要講我要講我之前主席不好意思"},{"start":4443.855,"end":4458.241,"text":"之前我一直跟院長討論親子會它的重點意義是什麼看起來故宮還是沒有記得我再念一次CRC的兒少表意權裡面提到兒少擁有就影響其本身之所有事物可以自由表達他的意見的權利"},{"start":4459.581,"end":4474.039,"text":"當然這並不是只是單純的讓兒少參與而已更重要的是要讓不同年齡層不同境遇的兒少都能夠以適當的形式表達自己的意見同時政府機關人員也都應該要認真對待並積極的予以聆聽"},{"start":4478.695,"end":4506.89,"text":"這個是我要主張的我跟委員報告因為我們談論說那個到底什麼層級的話基本上來講的話親自會開會的時候院長跟兩位副院長跟相關的所有的那個主管都在場關鍵不是等一下等一下院長你又搞錯我的意思關鍵不是誰跟他們開會而是他們到底可以對故宮裡面什麼樣的事情表達他們的看法跟想像他們對故宮的所有事情的話我們都盡量要求他們可以提供他們自己的看法"},{"start":4507.31,"end":4530.109,"text":"但是你還是沒有回答我例如說他們已經開過一次會他們講了什麼或者是你們規劃他們要做什麼事情我花了快6分鐘的時間讓故宮可以好好回答這個問題我還有別的題目但是我相信在場人應該都聽得出來我所主張的兒少表意權而且這不是我主張這是聯合國台灣兒童人權公約國內法制化之後我們台灣所有主管機關都必須要積極面對的問題"},{"start":4532.651,"end":4550.876,"text":"但是我一直在說我們把兒少邀請進故宮的委員會諮詢委員會有一個很重要的關鍵就是假設未來的觀眾群就是他們而他們現在如果沒有機會透過各種管道認識故宮那我們如何能夠期待故宮未來參觀的人次能夠逐漸提升"},{"start":4551.616,"end":4576.401,"text":"那我都不要去談少子化的議題我要講的是我認為故宮在這件事情上的態度真的是相對消極那不管是一年兩次會三次會四次會或者是開會的成績甚至招募的方法我覺得剛剛讓故宮這樣回答我聽起來都還有全面檢討的可能性也要拜託院長跟相關的幕僚要積極檢討我可以進入下一題嗎那這個部分我會持續追蹤好謝謝院長接下來我要談故宮的競爭力我們來看一下相關數字"},{"start":4581.192,"end":4601.067,"text":"把故宮的南院跟北院加起來都還輸台灣其他前三名的博物館那更不要講在疫情後所有的相關博物館的人數都上升我之前就已經跟院長舉過一個例子當時我就已經預告說齊美博物館他們即將舉行的那個拉斐爾道範古的這個展"},{"start":4602.028,"end":4615.412,"text":"一定會帶動非常多人潮因為光是網路上的賣票就已經不得了了後來我們實際去把相關數字調出來從5月開始他們從每個月4月的3萬多4萬多從5月開始一策展到13萬6月15萬7月16萬8月來到19萬"},{"start":4619.654,"end":4634.984,"text":"我認為故宮應該有更強的策展能力我當然知道故宮現在研究的量能或者是相關的經費跟預算可能都有一些不足的部分但是故宮企劃的能力應該可以更強這個部分院長你怎麼看"},{"start":4636.487,"end":4658.56,"text":"基本上來講的話我自己個人覺得故宮這兩年來的展覽辦得非常好那當然就是沒有錯就是說一個焦點的展覽的話可以吸引到更多的群眾譬如說像那個齊美的話是有跟英國National Gallery那高美館的話是有跟TED就是說有一個國外的重要展覽的話基本上來講對國內的感知是有一些新的"},{"start":4662.282,"end":4686.034,"text":"你們自己已經測了一個大美不言然後也謝謝故宮的導覽帶我們去看了我們來看大美不言下一頁故宮這個大展院長你認為它完全符合你剛剛講的國際重要企劃策展而且呢這個展我們去看了我們發現例如說以這張照片這個是在講書證我們發現不是只有法國來的書證其實還有故宮自己典藏的"},{"start":4686.474,"end":4703.228,"text":"那兩邊做了很好的呼應跟契合我個人認為這個展不僅光線設計好展示櫃設計的也好中外文物相互呼應古今展品對照但是我們後來聽了故宮的同仁跟我們分享這裡面有非常多法國人的idea在裡頭那我覺得有這樣的交流合作真的很好"},{"start":4704.309,"end":4727.299,"text":"院長如同你剛剛說的如果有主題有國際的量能進來我們可以吸引到更多的人那院長你自己期待這個大美不言可以為故宮帶來什麼樣的注意在人次參觀人次上參觀人數上面的話其實在故宮少有排隊的人潮除了翠白菜肉形石的話這個展覽是排隊的要抽那個號碼牌"},{"start":4729.88,"end":4753.009,"text":"我覺得這個部分要給同仁鼓勵好不好院長你要不要公開給你的同仁在這個議題上的努力這個企劃上的努力當然我剛剛已經一直講過了就是這兩年的話這兩年當然是我認後認前的話我不敢批評這兩年的話災難真的做得很好同仁在策展方面非常用心那如果他們策展很用心可是人次卻起不來會不會是我們相關宣傳有一些困境需要共同去面對"},{"start":4754.331,"end":4754.371,"text":"對﹖我們﹖我們﹖"},{"start":4772.937,"end":4774.618,"text":"謝謝主席有請蕭院長有請蕭院長"},{"start":4806.038,"end":4814.222,"text":"國際觀光客來到故宮我們其實除了有助於台灣的這個旅遊經濟的觀光效益之外其實也要讓世界看到台灣對文化資產的維護跟保存彰顯我國的文化軟實力"},{"start":4830.53,"end":4851.405,"text":"所以任何故宮所管理的文物不管是管藏或者是寄存我們同樣都要愛護跟重視它在人類文明史上的價值那文物的價值是一回事那我國中央部會公開向人民負責的態度又是一回事在民主法治的台灣兩者互相獨立而且一樣重要"},{"start":4855.147,"end":4880.146,"text":"這個會期是預算會期所以我要請蕭院長待會你務必要拿回負責任的態度面對納稅人說清楚故宮跟既存的私人文物特別是超過半世紀紙幣一甲子的板橋林家雙方故宮跟板橋林家雙方到底是有什麼樣的權利跟義務首先請院長看這張表"},{"start":4881.347,"end":4898.186,"text":"為什麼所有來故宮寄存的文物就板橋林家的待遇最優惠寄存期滿還有緩衝期緩衝期滿了還要請全民掏腰包幫他們看管文物都不用像中華電信依據新制的作業要點來洽談續存的合約"},{"start":4900.729,"end":4929.418,"text":"人家清水皇家喔就連要捐贈文物給故宮都要得依新制的作業要點來辦理審查所以現在故宮之所以好不容易擁有一個相對完善合理的所謂的文物寄存的新制度就是在吳密茶院長的任內推動改革的結果改革的核心是什麼改革的核心就是這個寄存制度應該是國家協助私人保護這個文物的制度"},{"start":4929.858,"end":4952.624,"text":"那當私人文物依照文化資產保存法指定為國寶或者是重要文物那它卻無力保存的時候那國家有義務來提供庫房資源來協助那板橋0加906件文物裡頭每一件都是依照文化資產保存法指定的國寶或重要文物嗎"},{"start":4953.404,"end":4968.66,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4968.76,"end":4986.288,"text":"我們的故宮那所謂的這個不管是費用問題或怎麼樣問題這個合理性在哪裡讓我們繼續來探討那如果板橋林家不需要用遵守所謂的新制這個產品徵集作業要點的規範那全國人民到底要負擔多少"},{"start":4987.048,"end":4987.088,"text":"委員會議員委員會"},{"start":5003.786,"end":5028.499,"text":"新制規定計存者應該依據文物計存審查後訂出來的保險價值購買藝術品的中和保險而且故宮是要列為所謂的共同被保險人那院長不用遵守新制的板橋0加906件文物又任何一件出狀況那是不是要叫全民買單以上問院長你幫我回答一下"},{"start":5029.766,"end":5040.554,"text":"板橋林家這個寄存案當然沒有錯他很特殊特殊的原因就是因為他是故宮最早的一個寄存案然後歷經的幾任的院長那當初他們在寄存的時候他們是兼了100萬元100萬元的話那時候我記得我那時候等一下我會跟你探討這個100萬你先說為什麼他不遵守新制他為什麼不遵守新制啊"},{"start":5055.225,"end":5068.345,"text":"那為什麼其他的我說像清水皇家也好中華電信也好要繼續在故宮寄存但都有依照我們所謂的新的規定辦法來重新簽約那為什麼板橋林家不用"},{"start":5070.473,"end":5087.345,"text":"原來最早原始寄存者的話他是一個人但是一個人的話他原來是希望這個文物永久留在故宮所以他還有一個但書就是說如果以後故宮文物返還大陸的話他的東西還是要留在台灣"},{"start":5088.346,"end":5097.909,"text":"所以基本上來講的話他是以一種所謂的捐贈的心態去那現在可以辦理捐贈現在的話就是因為一家現在一個代表人變成6個代表人"},{"start":5108.133,"end":5116.339,"text":"我們有在想辦法因為未來的故宮寄存的概念的話是以捐贈為原則我知道可是因為六個代表的話沒有辦法有一致的意見"},{"start":5126.814,"end":5150.684,"text":"這個你要處理啊不能因為這樣子我們有在處理我們有在處理好那你剛剛提到一百萬板橋這個謎樣的一百萬現在支息後變成一百一十八萬這個用途是什麼這等一下我們再來探討可是你看這個投影片上我們看臺北車站的置物櫃就好一個小時二十塊來計算如果民眾把私人物品寄放在這裡一年大約20萬就可以買一棟房子"},{"start":5152.145,"end":5154.608,"text":"你不要說那個時候嘛可是現在還是100萬啊現在還是100萬啊知喜後現在是118萬啊當初的100萬現在有增值嗎我們現在還是拿到現鈔是100萬啊119萬多"},{"start":5167.523,"end":5173.908,"text":"我跟你說119萬對啊現在的119萬可以幹嘛跟委員報告跟委員報告那個經費的話我們是拿在文路修復拿來做一些一些情況之後他自行累積的還是超過那個錢我就說嘛這個如果我們跟全民的納稅人去交代都交代不過去啦你看嘛我就說跟台北車站的置物櫃來比就好如果用這樣子來算啦你的118萬"},{"start":5193.562,"end":5221.142,"text":"計存了55年從1969年我出生那一年開始計存到現在我們等於一年平均只付了差不多兩萬元所以我覺得這個其實等於是我們故宮的庫房比臺北車站的置物櫃還便宜跟委員報告文物的價值並不是說用這個來算因為這些文物的價值不是用這個來算可是我們故宮的庫房包括我們的濕度我們的整個那個要花多少錢來算"},{"start":5222.483,"end":5222.724,"text":"要花多少來建置﹖"},{"start":5233.612,"end":5250.896,"text":"那好那為什麼說剛剛我就說100萬這個為什麼是那麼謎一樣因為他真的用途不明你們跟我的說明也都今天倒倒今年2月故宮送交立法院的書面報告是寫說板橋林家放在故宮的100萬是專門用來維護他們的寄存的私人文物是這樣講"},{"start":5255.077,"end":5270.866,"text":"今年5月您和我本辦的文件跟說這一百萬是故宮列於專戶存放一直用來收購文物用途未任意動之那所以未來將來也不會隨著板橋鄰家如果他們要取回這個私人文物會一併領回對吧"},{"start":5273.349,"end":5281.051,"text":"亂七八糟你講話你以為說這是要來維護他們的私人文物真的要說這個東西我不會聽到那個100萬的話我的水電我的空調費用的話是一個批次算的我不太可能去跟那個什麼台電說裡面的話大概2萬塊我用這筆來出所以他大概是一個水庫的概念你的回答再再證明了再再證明了我們幾乎是無常在保存板橋林家的文物"},{"start":5302.421,"end":5309.424,"text":"的私人文物那你拿所謂的那所謂的100萬請故宮當管家是這個對價關係嗎還是說我們純然就是所謂的無償無償來保管所以我覺得這個其實你因為無償對價關係對價關係的話基本上是這樣因為原來的記償的時候並沒有這些規定但是"},{"start":5329.873,"end":5335.94,"text":"規定是之後的但是要與時俱進嘛與時俱進是一種講法另外的話法律不溯及既往那當然也是另外一種不溯及既往阿人家其他其他的我說什麼清水皇家中華電信他也過去就拿清楚阿反正你對於板橋林家的特殊這個部分我一定追究到底你要給我說明清楚"},{"start":5350.916,"end":5378.998,"text":"因為在這批展覽這批東西的話在故宮展覽有展覽的近百次所以基本上來講的話歷次的展覽都會拿出來展所以並不是說那一切要依法治走依法治走嘛依照所謂的文物保存文物資產保存條例來認定說它是國寶或是古物對不對?是不是?他是不是真的不懂怎麼有辦法他也沒有規定說一定是國寶或重要古物才能寄存其實也沒有"},{"start":5379.478,"end":5396.268,"text":"現在新法是這樣你要看清楚喔新法沒有他只是講文化資產價值他沒有講對文化資產價值阿對文化資產價值阿就依照這個文化資產保存法來認定文化價值阿有國保有重要古物有一般古物基本上來講的話他就算進了故宮一般古物的話他也具有文資價值"},{"start":5397.694,"end":5424.908,"text":"院長私人文物進來寄存這個程序我覺得明明有更好更完備的所謂的藏品徵集作業要點可以依循我覺得你就偏偏要開後門採取所謂不存在毫無章法的所謂的救治反正時間的關係對於板橋私人文物寄存的正當性您今天的回答還是說不出一個所以然所以我覺得這個部分再請用書面跟本席說清楚"},{"start":5426.929,"end":5436.814,"text":"也要跟全院的委員交代清楚。對。好,謝謝林英錦委員。接下來我們有請陳秀寶委員。謝主席,請蕭院長。有請蕭院長。"},{"start":5449.452,"end":5467.141,"text":"委員長 非常早安 其實剛剛林執行委員所質詢的這個議題 對於我們一般的民眾其實對你們這個方式也一直覺得有點疑慮就是說如果是不對等條件的這樣子的一個計存方式 您現在在這個位置上有能力可以解決 您就要去解決它"},{"start":5468.301,"end":5493.777,"text":"我努力在解決現在的話就是因為有6個法定的代表人6個法定的代表人他們的意見不一所以我努力在解決並不是沒有辦法並不是不願意解決好沒關係那院長這個部分呢我希望說如果您給林益錦委員辦公室的你這個給他的"},{"start":5495.209,"end":5498.253,"text":"報告一份給我辦公室我現在不跟你討論這個問題來我們來討論一下關於新故宮計劃最早呢我們為了強化故宮在觀光產業的發展的作用力呢那前院長林正儀內內提出了新故宮計劃"},{"start":5510.229,"end":5514.033,"text":"原本是計劃在107年啟動6年計劃期間是到112年計劃內容包括整擴建故宮北院故宮南院新建國寶文物修復展示館以及博物館群國際觀光網絡建制"},{"start":5527.506,"end":5537.816,"text":"這個部分從107年啟動到現在其實經過行政院三次合定修正計畫本來的期程更是延到了116年總經費來到107.47億元那我想請教院長目前我們執行的情況怎麼樣有落後嗎為什麼6年計畫會變成10年計畫"},{"start":5549.362,"end":5572.995,"text":"六年計劃變成十年計劃當然就是有很多原因因為原來最早最早的話規劃是大故宮計劃那大故宮計劃的話就是有一些不一樣的聲音後來修訂為新故宮計劃新故宮計劃的話其實它就是小故宮計劃這不是大故宮計劃就是把一些工項收減然後把它集中在焦點的部分"},{"start":5573.675,"end":5577.218,"text":"議員長您的意思是說原來的6年計劃改成10年是因為說計劃的內容是有調整的"},{"start":5602.312,"end":5628.483,"text":"不是因為進度落後而延宕而是因為計劃的內容有調整才會6年變成10年進度的話以目前來講的話北部的進度基本上來講的話大概符合預期正是北部的政管的整修就是畫面上這一個就是說因為他的文職審議的話現在有一點點焦灼所以我們已經又報到台北市政府去了"},{"start":5628.983,"end":5636.527,"text":"那南沿的部分的話目前的進度還算順利然後就是這邊請教您這個關於進度的問題是因為故宮明年即將迎來100週年慶那如何確保新故宮計畫整個工程進度及歷史建築修復及再利用計畫不會延宕這個真的非常的重要也希望院長這邊您要特別關注特別的用心"},{"start":5651.775,"end":5654.837,"text":"另外再請教我們故宮南院新館原本是規劃有三個部分其中博物館展示有設置人氣國寶廳數位展廳以及國際展廳原本預計明年9月就要完工驗收115年的年底可以開館試營運"},{"start":5669.364,"end":5678.008,"text":"但是因為這個期間因為種種因素有疫情的因素或是物料上漲的因素我們工程有三次流標現在已經延到115年的10月之前主體建築才能夠完工那要到116年的12月底才能開管試營運那我想請教院長以目前工程的進度你有沒有把握在116年的年底能夠如期的試營運"},{"start":5692.816,"end":5699.724,"text":"一目前的新的進度的流程表的話是沒有問題因為目前整體的進度來講的話微乎超前"},{"start":5700.677,"end":5723.407,"text":"好如果以南院這邊現在目前進度是微乎超前的話那院長您是有信心的那再請教關於故宮的北院院區的整擴建計畫包括我們鎮館的整建就是含屋頂漏水的這個部分有五大項的工程那你們在報告裡面就提到說112年度起執行的研究大樓以及圖書文獻大樓等整建工程呢"},{"start":5724.447,"end":5746.306,"text":"圖書文獻大樓會在今年底竣工那麼其他的部分呢包括研究大樓政管整建這些部分目前執行的進度為何那個圖書文獻大樓就未來的第二展覽館的話在今年年底可以報竣那另外的話那個我們新的行政辦公大樓的話跟圖書館的話是已經在10月份的時候報竣那"},{"start":5748.368,"end":5765.97,"text":"研究大樓的話就要到明年的5月左右那政管的部分的話因為目前還等待那個臺北市政府文化局的文資審議所以這個部分的話就是要看後面的一個審議的一個狀況"},{"start":5768.239,"end":5793.631,"text":"審議的狀況會影響很久嗎?他們要多久才會有這個結果?我有特別去拜訪那個臺北市文化局的蔡世平局長就是請他就是說我們送進去以後能夠趕快排那個文資審議因為文資審議的話依照各個單位的話它也都是一種固定式的就是說譬如說半年後遺跡再審我希望說他們可以趕快幫我們"},{"start":5795.152,"end":5810.24,"text":"其實在這邊我會一直強調說所有工程的進度是因為故宮明年的一百週年慶我們的這個工程進度一定要特別的關注希望是不是可以如期如止那在這邊針對這個故宮百年願慶我在這邊也要請教就是說我們迎來這個願慶的這個同時我們是不是會有個特展那想請教目前對於這個百年願慶的特展我們籌備的進度如何"},{"start":5821.624,"end":5835.493,"text":"特展的進度現在都按照我們規劃的期程在進行那當然就是說包括國內展定期的話都會做一個策展的報告國外展的話也是目前的情況都很正常"},{"start":5837.113,"end":5844.118,"text":"情況都很正常就說照你們的規劃的期程照你們的進度都有在安排那這邊呢你們報告裡面有寫說你們在你們有規劃在2025年會在會參加臺北的國際書展臺北國際旅展及高雄國際旅展以及日本舉辦的國際旅展這樣大型的展會的活動你們都會去參展來行銷故宮那這報導上面有報道說"},{"start":5863.112,"end":5882.967,"text":"故宮明年會規劃赴日參加2025年大阪世界博覽會但您報告裡面沒有提到你們有沒有規劃要去因為大阪世界博覽會是經濟部外貿協會在規劃的所以在這個規劃裡面的話故宮是融入整體的設計因為"},{"start":5884.228,"end":5904.621,"text":"因為當然就是說日方的話不贊成我們用國家的名稱所以在故宮的話因為也是叫做國立故宮博物院所以我們就是融合到整個展覽裡面去你們是整體的計畫你們參與了一部分而不是用故宮自己的主體那你們規劃展是什麼產品"},{"start":5907.047,"end":5930.142,"text":"規劃展示的話不是用用藏品而是用數位的影像所以影像的話當然我們就凸顯就是說故宮國寶中華文物在臺灣的所以說我們參與的這個部分就對於大阪的市博我們去的不是帶藏品出門就對了我們用數位用3D用沉浸式的方式來做呈現"},{"start":5931.443,"end":5936.99,"text":"那因為明年9月呢我們會到捷克以及明年11月會到法國有展出那也希望說我們對於產品的這個安全跟維護應該要有周密的計畫相關的SOP一定要落實及確實這個部分希望你們一定要很謹慎你們目前對這些產品的整個的規劃呢"},{"start":5951.226,"end":5969.582,"text":"跟委員報告國際化交流的話基本上來講標準的作業程序的話一定是有的所以這個部分的話請委員放心然後整個司法面扣押然後甚至國內的文資審議然後甚至行政院的核定這個部分的話我們都會依規定期程來"},{"start":5970.623,"end":5999.355,"text":"委員長請主席給我一分鐘我講一下關於校園大使計畫你們在報告裡面又說你們要連結青年族群呈現多元的觀點所以你們110年開始有推動校園大使的計畫但是你們本來規劃說每年要培育12到13位的校園大使並在11所學校來展出那這個本期是非常的肯定但是你們今年只有培育11位也只有在9校展出而且這4年展出的學校裡面都沒有我們彰化的大學"},{"start":6000.435,"end":6002.304,"text":"是因為沒有學生報名還是沒有得到錄取?"},{"start":6004.246,"end":6012.349,"text":"我想是因為沒有報名吧好本期是很期盼就是說我們故宮校園大使這個計畫能夠均衡城鄉除了離島之外其實彰化苗栗屏東台東也都沒有故宮校園大使這個巡長的這個活動喔這個部分我會希望說我們能夠加強輔導跟協助因為既然要擴大青年參與而且你們現在規劃只有北部院區的校園大使計畫希望說未來能夠擴大到南部的院區這個部分你們可以演繹嗎"},{"start":6032.156,"end":6050.107,"text":"當然可以演繹因為剛剛委員有提醒我們就是有關清智慧的功能跟今天這個我會回去會做一個整體的同盤檢討好 謝謝院長 謝謝主席謝謝陳秀寶委員 謝謝院長 官員請回座那接著我們繼續質詢請昭偉萬美林委員質詢 謝謝好 謝謝主席 我們有請蕭院長"},{"start":6062.959,"end":6079.787,"text":"蔣委員長應該知道我是中華民國與捷克國會聯誼會的這個會長那這個今年我們也去看了一下我們文物要出展的捷克博物館的一個情形那明年我們的文物要到捷克出展"},{"start":6080.427,"end":6108.45,"text":"不過院長應該有掌握到捷克最近因為地方選舉還有參議院改選所以呢整個政治環境有所改變那國客會也這個海外的IC設計這個基地原本是9月份要營運也受到了影響現在也延後那不曉得我們現在故宮有沒有去掌握在9月份就是明年的9月我們捷克的特展有沒有受到影響會不會如期展出而本席剛才也聽您在說您應該也是有得到資訊說"},{"start":6109.531,"end":6127.005,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6127.341,"end":6127.922,"text":"會如期展出?對"},{"start":6156.545,"end":6172.939,"text":"那我們來看到剛才其實院長有提到不管是我們現在面對這一批這麼重要文物的出訪數量如此龐大我們在捷克方的司法免扣押這是在過去的一兩年當中我們很重視的那也如期在這個捷克修法通過完成 對不對"},{"start":6174.281,"end":6187.855,"text":"現在你剛才提到說我們這個國內還有這個文資相關的審議我們來討論一下捷克故宮文物百選及其故事共展出124件文物那其中最重要是這一次我們的翠玉白菜也要出訪去"},{"start":6189.497,"end":6204.999,"text":"那明年其實剛好是我們故宮成立百年在台復原60年其實對台灣來講是非常的重要那我們也推出了一系列的活動那我們現在缺少這124件文物您覺得會不會影響在我們自己台灣百年院慶的精彩程度"},{"start":6206.515,"end":6229.349,"text":"我想不會因為所有的展覽不管是到捷克到法國或是在故宮的文物基本上來講的話我們都已經做了一個顯見跟規劃那當然也會從國外 院長對不起您在回覆什麼啊我現在問您的是說少了這100多間院出訪了嗎會不會影響我們在台灣自己院境的精彩度 不會"},{"start":6230.109,"end":6245.952,"text":"不會,為什麼?拿什麼來補?不會,我剛講了就是說我們已經有把它的那個出國的期程做一個規範因為展覽是流動的並不是說去了不會回來所以它在下一檔展覽或是在下一個檔次的時候它就會出現"},{"start":6246.833,"end":6268.326,"text":"所以我們先讓捷克那邊看一看這樣的意思我們回來我們的這個國人有的是機會歡迎大家來故宮看是不是這樣子我聽您說的還更清楚那我們來看到在捷克這出產的124件文物當中您剛剛其實特別提到文資審議這個事情非常嚴重你看我們這124件文物當中其實只有三件"},{"start":6269.707,"end":6289.424,"text":"國寶40件重要古物是具備文資身份其他的文物其實到現在為止都還沒有通過文資審議那其實都是叫做占形古物那為什麼其實我們會規劃這個畏懼文資身份的文物出展這第一個第二個明年我們除了捷克之外像剛剛您說的11月我們還要到法國來辦一個特展這個龍"},{"start":6292.327,"end":6304.972,"text":"法國最出產的文物有116件其中9件國寶56件重要的古物具有文資身份所以還是有51件文物其實上代文資審議我不知道我能不能夠是把這兩個斬加起來那這樣算一下恐怕鄉下會有162件文物其實要審議"},{"start":6313.556,"end":6337.231,"text":"所以您剛剛說我們在國內我們自己的文資審議我們也很中心也在進行中但我們看到其實這個速度是很嚴當而且沒有完備的嘛那好我們來講這個文資局從109年到現在僅僅只有通過241件文物的這個文資審議平均一年大概在48件左右可是呢我們明年要出展之前那要趕在明年出展之前要能夠審議完這162件文物的文資審議"},{"start":6339.813,"end":6363.898,"text":"本席覺得真的非常的趕啦那不曉得這個院長有沒有掌握這件事情那有沒有去跟這個文資局在做一個這個瞭解跟委員報告基本上來講的話這些審議的程序的話我們都有跟那個文資局密切合作那來得及嗎沒有問題因為一般來講的話文物的審議是這樣就是說一定是先審國保"},{"start":6365.098,"end":6387.895,"text":"國保的話 院長所以您認為一定來得及嘛 對不對對對先審國保國保接下來審中央國務那我想照我們要出訪前我還會再跟你來對到底我們完成了沒有因為我們要知道其實沒有完成的話就不可能出去了那很好因為我想其實院長比我們還清楚這個出展文物如果沒有具備文資的身份的話這個整個價值會被錯估的不管是我們的保護啦保險啦等等"},{"start":6390.017,"end":6403.349,"text":"其實現在所有的文物在故宮的文物故宮文物暫行分級它等同已經是具有文資身份暫行分級也是文資身份好 院長其實我們希望更清楚而且我覺得其實這個文資審議我們跟文資局這邊的這個"},{"start":6407.153,"end":6407.674,"text":"現在暫行也是要處罰"},{"start":6424.57,"end":6444.604,"text":"我們現在來講,其實處罰都不是我們的目的我們沒有想要走到處罰這一步不管是其實兩年前我想故宮其實我本來不想再提因為我相信這也是故宮這個所有同仁的心中的痛不管是我們明雙龍小碗、清小黃瓷碗還有這個清花卉盤這三項文物當時的這個被毀損我想我們沒有要去"},{"start":6451.568,"end":6459.833,"text":"我們希望在這個部分我們能夠盡快那另外我想請教一下現在我們出展這些文物我們現在的保險的狀況是如何保險的話當然會依照程序很多人都想打聽說到底是花了多少保費那因為過去的故宮的慣例的話這個是我們我們是不對公開的"},{"start":6476.169,"end":6499.51,"text":"我也不會勉強你說的但重要是現在有沒有找到保險公司願意承攬基本上沒有問題沒有問題好所以院長您剛剛有說到如果今天我們的文物沒有通過文資這個審議是絕對不會出國去對好那這樣我就放心了那我希望我們跟文資局的這個往來互動要更密切一點好再來我們來看"},{"start":6501.292,"end":6511.784,"text":"議員長疫情結束之後其實本期有提過幾次我們希望能夠加強推廣來吸引國外旅客我看到故宮有努力那你們不管是去主動出席參加這個臺北國際書展文創博覽會國際旅展等等"},{"start":6515.728,"end":6533.987,"text":"那來招攬這個就是接連去招攬這些不管國內這是在國內的部分啦那國外的部分你們也去了這個日本東京台灣形象展啦然後呢也預備參加也參加了德國的台灣形象展啦那明年還跟國貿組要合作啦準備參加日本大阪的世博展啦等等"},{"start":6534.788,"end":6545.072,"text":"這一些我都是看到故宮在做努力不過雖然有努力不過我們看到南北院在議後我們的國外的觀光旅客從111年的4萬多人112年的72萬到113年到目前74萬算是打平可是距離108年的309萬還是有很大的落差"},{"start":6556.477,"end":6565.23,"text":"我感覺啦因為現在疫情已經其實流感化常態化了但我們的國外旅客還是回不來看起來國外旅客人數是回不去了您同意嗎"},{"start":6567.153,"end":6595.595,"text":"故宮平均來講當然就是說用多少年來算故宮平均的話外籍的旅客的話占7成所以這個部分外籍旅客對故宮來講很重要到有入客的時候甚至高過8成那因為外籍的旅客不入境的話的確對故宮的觀眾人是有很大的影響那嚴格來講就是說因為這樣其實某種情勢來講的話整體的國內的參觀人數增加這也是另外一個好處"},{"start":6596.531,"end":6616.5,"text":"但是增加我們看起來也是緩慢那我想我們來看其實我們現在這個參訪的人次不管國內國外或者是南院北院我們好像都一直下降我覺得這一點其實院長其實我們要真的是非常嚴正的去看待他而且要想出積極的辦法那今天我想很多委員都講到我們自己根據觀光所的統計我們現在的故宮"},{"start":6622.242,"end":6649.892,"text":"我們在不管是觀光人數的排名下降來到第三名或者是我們在博物館裡面這個排名也下滑到第六名我想這個都是一個我們值得去看的一個現象不過我特別今天要提的是說我們今天故宮身為直屬行政院底下的博物館其實你比其他博物館有更多的資源那這樣的名次我想院長有沒有覺得很遺憾"},{"start":6651.716,"end":6675.817,"text":"當然很遺憾可是因爲原因很多我說中中紀念堂跟國際紀念堂的校長是一回事另外的話教育部的4個館爬到上面的話因爲教育部有業配所以我們沒有辦法去動用那個整個教育行政的所以你現在意思是在怪教育部有業配所以害你下降我們也沒有那另外一個故宮的門票基本上來講的話是裡面最高的"},{"start":6676.578,"end":6699.979,"text":"那院長其實如果按照您這樣講的話那我建議你啊你就去跟什麼中正紀念堂啦科博館啦還有什麼什麼還有科學公益博物館啦你有沒有去跟他們請議一下算了我們有跟他們做那個聯票如果拿他們任何一個館的票到故宮來講的話都可以打8次我覺得這也是方法之一啦但我認為不應該去完全依附別人啦故宮欸"},{"start":6701.54,"end":6710.586,"text":"故宮欸這麼多的國寶這麼多重要的文物在這裡我們要去依附別人我想喔那個院長我想最後最後30秒我講一下喔其實這一次喔在這個我們最近的這幾個展覽喔你可能不知道當你們來我辦公室結束之後我把這相關的展覽告訴我地方很多不管這個符輪社啦不管是這個家長會啦不管是這個獅子會啦等等很多每一個人都驚為天人說哇有這麼棒的展啊"},{"start":6729.397,"end":6748.919,"text":"他們現在剛好一批一批都準備要到故宮去看了所以這個是我來告訴故宮說你們可能要再更主動出席喔那也許你們沒有設一個什麼公關組什麼這類的但是呢有沒有想辦法主動去出席讓人家知道這個展並且主動招引人家來我覺得這是非常重要的所以這個請院長參考好嗎"},{"start":6750.161,"end":6772.438,"text":"另外跟委員報告因為過去的話在過去那個年代啦所有外交部的系統或是有新聞集的時候所有的那個媒星的話動不動就會提到故宮那最近的話當然就是比較少所以我們在所以現在是其他他們都都不提到故宮所以害你變成這樣沒有啦就是說那個基本上來講的話他們的文獻費用花在故宮的上面比較少"},{"start":6772.858,"end":6773.278,"text":"接下來我們有請葛如君委員"},{"start":6810.165,"end":6811.386,"text":"謝謝主席有請故宮蕭院長有請蕭院長"},{"start":6817.489,"end":6839.743,"text":"回應一下剛剛有說近期真的我們的政府太少提故宮了希望可以反映一下我們的文物我們的歷史真的是很重要那我們現在賴清德總統已經轉彎了這個祖國論我們所有單位都應該響應一下有文化有文物才能夠去提這個歷史那除了歷史以外我想科技也是非常重要我想今天這個業務報告還是希望能夠再次提醒"},{"start":6842.865,"end":6870.055,"text":"世界各國的博物館都在面臨新的挑戰但是也有很多新的機會大家都在用科技尤其是新新的AI科技根據博物館協會ICOM的這個通過2022年的新定義博物館其實除了保存展示歷史遺產跟文化以外應該要加入倫理專業社群參與的方式還要兼具知識娛樂多元跟包容性的體驗"},{"start":6871.295,"end":6893.256,"text":"換句話說AI科技的發展將有可能帶來新的文化跟科技的視野那我想請教的是當國際間知名的博物館都大膽擁抱新興科技AI科技發展出AI的各種應用方式的時候想請教院長您知道故宮113年度一共編列了多少AI相關的預算嗎"},{"start":6898.877,"end":6906.124,"text":"AI相關的預算因為數位的預算是融入在各個計畫裏面 如果把它拆開的話有多少"},{"start":6909.849,"end":6937.811,"text":"我們其實沒有一個專門的項目回應一下我們已經得到資訊了我們沒有一個我看了很多遍我覺得我看錯了但是最後我發現我沒有看錯因為跟委員報告就像你會覺得說看錯了你願不願意把數字說出來你一定有嘛所以你不願意講嘛那不然我幫你講告訴院長答案數位展覽編列20萬教育推廣編列23萬一共只有43萬新台幣跟AI科技有關"},{"start":6939.372,"end":6951.662,"text":"不是這個樣子我們所的資料是這樣啊所以是有誰給錯檔案了嗎?少一個零嗎?我的同仁給我的時候我真的睜大眼睛問我是不是少了一個零根本上來講的話數位資訊是一個是所以他編列的預算的話就是"},{"start":6959.568,"end":6970.935,"text":"我們要問的是運用AI有關的3D建模掃描AI導覽對話CHECKGPT2022年就已經出現了我們現在已經2024了我們還在編明年的預算那明年會不會變多還是你是說明年我們也不知道那你們要不要再算一次再提供過來那順便提供明年的好不好"},{"start":6987.526,"end":7007.471,"text":"對阿所以為什麼我們得到的資訊會是這樣嗎院長要不要了解一下好不好那我想這樣子的數字真的會讓我們一笑大方阿以為我們這是台灣文化場館是時器場館時器時代的場館沒有關係阿我們現在看的是數字我待會給你看證據故宮其實真的有很多科技翻新的機會"},{"start":7008.971,"end":7029.791,"text":"首先觀眾一進入大門第一個體驗就是導覽服務根據你們112年度自己的調查九成以上的民眾知道有導覽機但是弔詭的是只有不到三成的人去使用高達七成六的民眾沒有使用任何語音的導覽服務你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼大多數的民眾沒有使用語音導覽"},{"start":7032.981,"end":7049.126,"text":"院長應該要關心一下吧對當然當然會要推動一個也許界面不好一些也許是程序不方便可是現在的話如果可以導入個人手機的話基本上來講的話每人自己都有手機的話就不用去智慧型手機的時代從2010到現在已經14年了"},{"start":7052.347,"end":7063.69,"text":"本席合理懷疑我們很可能還在20年前的方法當然當年我相信故宮是很努力我們就來看一下這是我們現在故宮的做法請院長看一下國外使用AI導覽的情況荷蘭阿姆斯赫丹的安妮之家2017年就已經發表了用Facebook Messenger的一個AI Bot去做一個自然語言的對話"},{"start":7076.514,"end":7103.448,"text":"去讓觀眾去了解安妮的生平故事其次我們剛剛這個也想要關心一下不只是導覽而已我覺得這個新的時代真的應該要重新探討之外還有紀念品的問題雖然我相信故宮的紀念品其實是大家都很喜歡也有一些很不錯的爆品但是現在全世界為了低碳為了零碳為了減少碳足跡也有越來越多像NFT像數位典藏的紀念品"},{"start":7105.029,"end":7117.375,"text":"像比如說MOMA紐約現代美術館就有推出MOMA POSTA這是一堆我的阿宅朋友遠端的參加了他們的數位NFT區塊鏈紀念品的收藏活動透過15個國際知名的深層藝術家設計讓全世界的人可以像接龍一樣把這個圖案畫出來變成自己的收藏品然後又可以讓大家認識瞭解MOMA有一天真正的去一清方則"},{"start":7134.022,"end":7148.434,"text":"除此之外AI或者VR也可以帶來很生動的體驗最有名的是2019年巴黎羅浮宮這還是跟我們台灣的公司合作用VR的方式讓蒙娜麗莎走出防彈玻璃"},{"start":7149.375,"end":7168.441,"text":"那當世界知名博物館紛紛運用科技的時候 院長你知道 如果你搜尋翠玉白菜不在家 你知道我們如果明年9月我們的翠玉白菜出國了 我們的民眾會看到什麼你知道嗎 我們民眾看到的是一個紙板 是一個紙板啊 這個"},{"start":7171.673,"end":7186.291,"text":"院長你有沒有表達一下我們是台灣是什麼我們到底是一個科技之島還是時器時代啊我們每次都說我們科技世界的中心半導體的強國結果呢崔玉白在出國了放一個紙板"},{"start":7187.327,"end":7187.347,"text":"院長"},{"start":7208.405,"end":7223.88,"text":"我非常了解故宮有非常非常強大的同仁對於數位的資訊數位的展覽都非常厲害我非常了解但是院長您的態度非常重要我們馬上明年就有很多文物要出展可不可以讓大家耳目一新"},{"start":7224.44,"end":7240.011,"text":"不要翠玉白菜不在家結果留了一個紙板在那邊讓大家拍照那更不用講了我想我還是要再次講一下AI科技數位典藏的科技3D掃描VR的展現其實這些數據非常的重要其實可以讓我們無遠佛界的人前來觀賞那你可以看到2021年我們的典藏精選網站從327萬點閱數到了2023年跌到134萬"},{"start":7253.621,"end":7276.675,"text":"到今年的7月為止只有54萬次現在已經10月快要10月底了所以如果我們把數位AI VR 3D都做好我們的數位典藏的流量會增加我們的民眾到現場可以帶上VR可以用手機看到3D的翠玉白菜還有一個什麼好處呢這些資料掃描公開了以後讓全世界的AI來學習"},{"start":7277.836,"end":7300.732,"text":"可以讓全世界的AI認識翠玉白菜的英文名詞到底是什麼他的形狀到底長什麼樣子我告訴院長啦我一直在講開放資料數位資料這是我們現在學生90%在用的某公司的AI的平台啦你如果問他說故宮典藏翠玉白菜的英文是什麼很抱歉啦"},{"start":7301.67,"end":7324.452,"text":"他講的詞呢是錯的因為他少了那個 insects我們真正的翠玉白菜是有蟲在上面嘛很可愛嘛英文名字是錯的你叫他畫出來畫出來是一個包心菜這就是我們的文化我們的資訊不夠數位化不夠公開造成的結果我們希望院長這真的是我本來要"},{"start":7331.766,"end":7354.503,"text":"這是AI眼中的翠玉白菜喔AI眼中的翠玉白菜因為AI演算的話基本上來講的話他是一個平均數的概念所以故宮的翠玉白菜的話是在所有翠玉白菜裡面是最獨特的所以除了你指名道姓說故宮的翠玉白菜的話我指名道姓啊故宮館長翠玉白菜我不夠指名道姓嗎"},{"start":7357.675,"end":7358.836,"text":"院長我在這裡本席非常慎重的請你"},{"start":7369.048,"end":7377.054,"text":"用開放的精神面對科技當有遇到這種問題的時候千萬不要說是科技的問題千萬不要說是AI的問題我再說一次故宮的同仁內部對於數位的能力是非常強的跟全世界比起來我們絕對不會輸的院長您的態度是關鍵希望您可以張開雙手"},{"start":7395.427,"end":7420.888,"text":"放開你的心胸去迎接接下來你們會有第5期的前瞻的預算的規劃希望故宮盡力爭取相關的預算讓AI科技VR科技3D文資的開放成為故宮邁向世界一流博物館的助力跟委員報告同仁都了解我是非常非常的支持而且我們現在也準備在做AI Ready的一個一個一個"},{"start":7423.59,"end":7449.206,"text":"一個資料庫那基本上來講這樣的情況的話如果你攝取的那個語言正確的話那基本上來講的話不用AI你用一般的那個Google都可以找到故宮的翠玉白菜院長你剛剛先怪AI你現在是怪我啦你現在是怪我攝取的文字不對啊沒有關係我們希望您的精神反映出來支持同仁支持我們的文物反映在預算上面43萬如果是錯的請給予新的資料"},{"start":7452.288,"end":7481.329,"text":"明年度的預算在科技AI的運用請提供出來謝謝另外的話另外跟委員報告因為我也希望說跟那個行政院跟那個人事總署在那邊爭取因為數位資訊處他是一個幕僚單位是做數位系統管理的現在要他們跨業的話我希望他們可以改成數位資訊處因為處是一個業務處那那個事的話是一個幕僚單位是管機器的所以管行政管事務的"},{"start":7482.009,"end":7502.16,"text":"所以這個部分的話我會跟院裡邊去強調說因為這方面我想我們大家一起來討論謝謝 謝謝院長好 謝謝葛如君委員接下來是吳春成委員但是他已書面質詢所以我們下一位有請郭育晴委員謝謝主席 有請院長"},{"start":7511.414,"end":7539.042,"text":"我請蕭院長好院長早安之前去看了現在故宮的非常漂亮的一個展覽我想這一次其實這個整個所有的展覽讓我非常非常的驚豔尤其是我們看到了法國的百年珠寶品牌凡克雅寶其實很多人可能不曉得凡克雅寶它其實在於它的工藝"},{"start":7540.182,"end":7565.702,"text":"他是1896年非常頂級這一次在故宮也特別把他們的爵士精品以往可能只會在那個加士德或蘇富比拍賣會當中才能看到的那這一次還特別結合了這個巴黎的裝飾藝術館他們的一些漂亮的一些作品那故宮當然我們也推出了每一個櫃裡頭有不同的一個主題然後三大結合"},{"start":7567.745,"end":7591.612,"text":"讓人非常的驚豔但是呢我真的想要說的是這一次的展覽其實原則上來講其實讓大家都非常非常的其實看過之後都會覺得可以再去看第二次但是在宣傳的部分是不是稍顯不足因為既然是三大結合的一個藝術的大展"},{"start":7592.512,"end":7596.296,"text":"10月17日還是我們特別的一個所謂的台灣文化日參觀的人數上是不是有一些些沒有辦法達標的部分"},{"start":7610.228,"end":7624.933,"text":"那我們先來看一下到年底我們到底有沒有機會可以達標在這個北部的院區的部分我想在疫情前其實北部院區不管是107年或者是108年我們其實到訪的人次都將近有380幾萬"},{"start":7627.774,"end":7648.302,"text":"那當然疫情的這三年會稍微比較辛苦一點點那但是在去年的部分北部的院區其實也就是下滑到155萬左右那當然到了8月我們的統計那今年當然我們有北部有特別設定的一個目標啦我們目標其實在北院的部分是250萬嘛對不對"},{"start":7651.929,"end":7677.128,"text":"那是一個期待因為原來的話我們估列的是兩百萬那希望可以兩百五十萬但的確是到達不了目前來講的話大概北院是一百四十五萬去年是整體是一百五十萬但目前為止大概一百四十五萬左右那南院的話這個禮拜一突破八十萬所以南院的話還有機會可以打標還有機會打標對"},{"start":7678.109,"end":7702.639,"text":"那北院到底為什麼沒有辦法達標我們有沒有討論出一個比較內部有沒有檢討出一個最主要的原因因為其實有很多的大家比較熟悉的其實都是在我們的北院對我想這個是我們當初估計我們當初估計的話那個國外旅客入境的話可以到達170萬可是事實上是沒有所以這個部分的話就產生了一個比較大的"},{"start":7702.799,"end":7703.079,"text":"打打打打打"},{"start":7715.799,"end":7744.466,"text":"因為根據這個交通部觀光署特別公布啦在2024年的這個上半年我們的排名居然到了第6那到第6其實這個讓我們其實還覺得蠻訝異的因為其實以所謂的這個國外觀光客他們來很多的景點其實往往故宮都是至少都是前2或前3那這次掉到了第6所以在宣傳的部分是不是我們的力道可能還要再繼續加強"},{"start":7747.088,"end":7774.353,"text":"大美不言的話其實在我們合辦單位裡面他做了蠻多的宣傳那因為宣傳的費用其實以現在來講的話他是蠻高的我們也透過各種方式去做宣傳包括捷運站包括機場然後包括媒體就是三大報其實我們都做了廣告其實真的要告訴大家啦凡克亞巴不是只有幸運草的項鍊而已他其實還有很多很棒的一些工藝那天去看了之後"},{"start":7774.873,"end":7798.295,"text":"因為最主要這個展覽的話是三個單位的聯合策展不是聯展聯展的話是一個單位一個單位一個區塊這一次是把三個單位的東西都串聯在一起主要的策展也是法國的一個非常有名的一個策展人好那我想這個部分可能我們再繼續加油因為我想之後可能還會有陸陸續續故宮還會有很多推陳出新的一些展覽"},{"start":7799.596,"end":7799.997,"text":" ﹝無言之聲﹞"},{"start":7818.007,"end":7833.741,"text":"就是損壞的一個事件所以其實有特別指到今年要改成所謂的要把原來的一物一合要改為就是改相為貴那這個部分目前的進展程度還有進度大概到什麼樣的一個"},{"start":7834.641,"end":7862.47,"text":"先跟委員報告就是那個改箱為貴或是一物一盒是一個概念並不見得說所有東西都一定真的是要放在櫃子裡面或是所有的文物都一個東西一個盒子這是一個概念只是說讓它有比較接近現代化管理的一個方式那現在的情況是因為我們的空間是一個最主要的原因因為一定要把那個南院的行政大樓這邊"},{"start":7863.79,"end":7885.707,"text":"處理好了以後然後北院的部分人員搬下來搬到南院我們才可以騰出空間去做庫房所以這個時間序的話因為建築工程的話就是他有一定的那個期程跟驗收期程所以在今年年底的話如果是同仁可以搬到那個山下的那個行政"},{"start":7886.448,"end":7886.508,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7915.765,"end":7920.767,"text":"國務的保存其實對我們來講其實非常重要了好那另外其實我們特別要期待的就是其實我們都希望其實往下扎跟種下這個文化的種子啦"},{"start":7938.394,"end":7959.003,"text":"那當然其實我們也看到故宮這邊不管是百萬學子悠悠博物館的一個城校或者是說要擴大辦理這個故宮的這個遊藝司讓這個學生能夠到這個北院這個部分那尤其我們先從這個百萬學子的悠悠博物館的城校開始來說當然從107年推出這個專案計畫那也都有做"},{"start":7964.585,"end":7981.132,"text":"一切的這樣子的一個實際上的一個行行動那我想的除了這個提供專人的導覽還有手作的一些體驗甚至我們也是鼓勵這個學生能夠到南院來參訪了那也有比較稍微偏遠的地區我們有接駁車"},{"start":7982.392,"end":7983.133,"text":"一百一十一年一百一十二年"},{"start":8008.047,"end":8030.806,"text":"人數幾乎少了一半這個部分是不是在成效的部分還真的有險不足呃委員可以從這個表看到109到111是因為疫情期間疫情期間的話他111舒緩的話就人數有上漲那112去年的話是一個爆發期不管是網站流量或是或是實際上的今年怎麼會掉這麼多今年"},{"start":8031.326,"end":8056.604,"text":"掉這麼多對不起不能再講說我怪教育部因為教育部跟文化部有貼出類似的活動所以所以你的意思是說稀釋掉了原來可能會要到南院的對那另外的話另外的話這個經費的話是有一部分是故宮自己的經費有一部分的經費是木來的所以所以我們要有新的預出的資源我們才可以繼續辦理相關的活動"},{"start":8058.325,"end":8084.022,"text":"好我們快速再看一下我再用一點時間快速再看一下這個故宮遊醫師的部分那這個也是在113年就是今年的7月統計的人數的部分其實好像也是有一點不足然後再來就是選擇的部分這個上半年我們預計的名額是2000名那在下半年我們預計的總計的名額是1000名但是我們可以看到這個合作的這些單位"},{"start":8085.043,"end":8107.544,"text":"是不是可以在選項上再多增加這是我們收到一般學校他們給我們的反應選項上面可不可以再多一點點其他的選擇這個沒有問題但是這個委員大家都可以看到龍山寺是排第一個因為是龍山寺出的經會所以我們一定要去龍山寺然後到故宮然後再去別的地方"},{"start":8108.425,"end":8126.178,"text":"在學校的有限的時間裡面有時候他們的選擇的話當然我們會希望說更多人因為我們的北部的博物館其實蠻多的應該不只這些選項其實讓大家有更多的一個選擇可能對於學生來講會比較更有興趣因為時間的關係也謝謝謝謝院長 謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝郭育群委員"},{"start":8137.301,"end":8139.183,"text":"接下來我們有請張雅琳委員謝謝主席 我們有請院長有請蕭院長張院長"},{"start":8153.348,"end":8170.612,"text":"院長早,就是說首先我還是要會最關心我在乎的這個兒少議題喔就是說我看到你們的新故宮計畫你們的計畫裡面有提到要整建故宮北院南側的老舊建築群齁那其中呢就有我看這個計畫裡面的子計畫的第9項"},{"start":8173.513,"end":8190.938,"text":"他是講說是在有一個叫做青少年兒童教育中心的項目要讓服務升級好那我想了解喔就這裡面的青少年兒童教育中心以及這個家庭中心和現在的北院的兒童學藝中心是相同的項目嗎"},{"start":8192.063,"end":8214.149,"text":"跟委員報告這是一個誤解因為當初新故宮計畫的時候是有這樣的一個規劃但是後來考量實際上如果說把兒童教育中心放在南院的話那南院跟北院的紀律就是說他抽離他的展場"},{"start":8215.029,"end":8240.802,"text":"所以後來的話我才會重新跟同仁討論就是說那個兒少中心的話就設在故宮的東側原來的第二辦公室的地方然後另外連結他旁邊的舊的四棟宿舍變成是一個探索館所以現在這樣的話他就整個跟跟故宮的政管連結就故宮的地下一樓的話有一個就是入口的還是"},{"start":8242.663,"end":8257.088,"text":"對部長而院長用這招來跟我說明一下好了就故宮的B1的話近期他有一個一個兒育中心這個兒育中心的話未來我們還是會留著這個是這個地方不變嗎只是增加了青少年教育"},{"start":8258.469,"end":8272.345,"text":"對這個地方的話是讓那個一般的閃客或是沒有預約的來然後之後的話就是那個兒童教育中心兒童教育中心的話就是現在的那個沿海的第二行政辦公大樓"},{"start":8272.825,"end":8283.073,"text":"現在已經在7月的時候已經完成了已經開始辦理教育推廣活動那另外的話4棟的那個宿舍的話那基本上來講的話我們會進行規劃因為原來在新故宮計畫裡面並沒有包括這4棟的宿舍"},{"start":8288.397,"end":8315.135,"text":"那另外的話兒益中心就原來第二班公大樓的話原來叫兒益中心可是現在的推廣教育的話就不會指責兒童就是說我們會做樂齡會做那個銀髮就是說基本上來講 報告長院長我覺得我現在我想確認一件事就是說好我們有學益中心不變對不對他就是給散課我們現在有探索中心結合了青少兒童家庭的部分這部分就是來做推廣課程"},{"start":8316.577,"end":8329.355,"text":"對但是這個部分的話他會變成是一個有預約式的課程對我知道他就是一個推廣預約的活動嗎然後讓學校可能可以來約課程之類的嗎對不對所以現在是在已經第二行政大樓已經在7月的時候開始營運了對嗎對好"},{"start":8331.238,"end":8358.73,"text":"那我想了解一下就是說因為現在剛剛還有講到一個探索中心這個探索中心是包含了就是我剛剛講的這些全部所以那個四棟建宿舍跟這個完全沒有關係沒有那個所有的探索館就是四棟的舊的宿舍我要把它改成是一個推廣教育的探索中心探索中心的話譬如說裡面有一棟的話是可以做數位的影音沒關係院長我釐清一下好了就是說"},{"start":8360.991,"end":8366.446,"text":"所以那個探索中心也就是你剛剛講的這個在第二行政大樓裡面的這四個宿舍對不對"},{"start":8367.301,"end":8370.763,"text":"對於單字量尚不足的學齡兒童來說﹖或者是說對於家長對於3C有concern的部分﹖是"},{"start":8393.459,"end":8393.82,"text":"我知道 我知道 我知道 我知道"},{"start":8408.516,"end":8434.388,"text":"但是在未來的推廣教育的話基本上來講DIY互動的部分就會增多對 所以我是想要強調這個部分啦那我想就是說現在看起來有一些詳細的規劃那可能也開始舉辦了一些課程那是不是可以把這個現在已經舉辦的課程以及來訪的年齡層相關的細節可不可以在一個禮拜內提供給我這個報告好不好讓我們來看看裡面還可以怎麼樣一起來努力OK 好 是好 那再來就是說其實我也想要跟這個"},{"start":8437.629,"end":8442.093,"text":"我們在北院15歲以下的兒童到訪的人次是相對少的"},{"start":8461.99,"end":8481.227,"text":"我們南院是多的因為我們活動很精彩很豐富可是我們北院來說相對是少的但是我也認為就是說孩子必須要從小就開始學習進入到博物館裡面去了解台灣的歷史發生了什麼事情那這是我從英國的VNM Museum他其實有做一個就是Museum of Childhood就是童年的部分"},{"start":8482.308,"end":8507.418,"text":"展示了不同世代的英國兒童的童年這個是在2018年的時候新加坡也策了一個展就在講不同世代的一個遊戲場我覺得這個主題對小孩來說非常有趣所以我在想提供一個解方我們先希望吸引更小的小朋友他可以進來遊戲場進來這個博物館我覺得遊戲場可能是一個很好的主題因為對他來說他會覺得感同身受"},{"start":8508.218,"end":8516.608,"text":"會很有興趣但可能就是一個很好的媒介讓他進入到博物館所以我在想如果我們明年有經費的話是不是可以來測一個這樣子的展呢"},{"start":8518.607,"end":8539.407,"text":"好那個我請我們同仁來研究看看那跟我們報告未來的4的舊的宿舍基本上來講的話就等於4個展場對所以它裡面的話它可以可以調整的空間對我想我們是不是可以來考慮一下因為其實這個其實有蠻多博物館都有做類似的展覽好那再來就下一個就是說我們現在的多媒體導覽"},{"start":8541.429,"end":8567.496,"text":"在成人的部分我們有那個台語跟客語就是國家本土語言的部分那我們在兒童的部分因為其實就有很多的這樣跟我反映啊他的小孩本土就一般的生活對話都是可以用台語進行的可是當他要去了解一些更深層的藝術的知識的時候他就不知道怎麼跟他小孩講所以我覺得故宮其實也可以承擔這樣子的責任來開發兒童版本的台語跟客語的導覽這部分是不是可行呢"},{"start":8569.507,"end":8589.763,"text":"台語的導覽的話我原來在國立台灣美術館做過課宜的話倒沒有那這樣看起來之前院長有經驗嘛我們是不是可以來發展這個給兒童的版本一起來傳承母語附贈的任務如果是成為一個導覽的書籍版本我們可以來研究"},{"start":8594.306,"end":8611.36,"text":"我們可以來研究齁,那我們是不是可以來到時候也給我一個詳細的一個期程,你們大概什麼時候可以研究好不好?對,因為現在最大的問題對故宮最大的問題的話就是因為故宮的展覽活動很多,如果越多議員的話那個歡迎的即時性是一個很大的負擔,那以目前來講的話"},{"start":8612.521,"end":8637.049,"text":"除了說未來AI會議及議員要不要來討論其實一些基本的字我想也不需要整份全部把它變成是兒童的版本嘛因為兒童會能夠理解的我想我們也有兒少親自委員會嘛我們其實也可以跟他來請教我們可以針對哪個部分來強化好不好這個部分請院長一定要來幫忙啦好不好讓我們的孩子也可以從不同的本土語言來了解我們台灣的文化跟歷史"},{"start":8639.654,"end":8645.045,"text":"我最後快快的講一件事情就是說我們這次要去這個大阪萬博展"},{"start":8647.293,"end":8674.989,"text":"我是想要做個小小的提醒啦因為其實到時候萬博展一定會吸引非常非常多的國際旅客去參訪那其實大家也都有提到故宮的國際旅客一直在下降所以我覺得這是一個很好的機會來吸引我們的國際旅客但是我們還是希望說在這裡面的策展的內容呢也要去強調我們台灣的一個本土歷史讓大家更了解台灣然後我們也希望可以藉由這個活動呢可能來去串聯未來大家來到故宮的時候可以去看到"},{"start":8677.391,"end":8679.392,"text":"台灣故宮更豐富的一個館長"},{"start":8707.27,"end":8708.111,"text":"謝謝主席我請故宮博物院院長"},{"start":8736.561,"end":8737.561,"text":"好,有請蕭院長吳院長蕭院長好上個禮拜呢在我們故宮博物院邀請之下我跟本委員會的陳培宇委員、郭育群委員一起到了故宮觀賞大美不言這一個特展那我聽說這個特展也籌備了多年"},{"start":8757.891,"end":8761.572,"text":"是由我們臺灣故宮跟巴黎裝飾藝術館還有凡克雅寶三方合作所籌備的那我自己的觀賞體驗我覺得非常的驚喜然後收穫也很多這個照片上恐怕沒有呈現但是因為在每一個展櫃裡面都是由我們策展的一個主題"},{"start":8783.28,"end":8808.12,"text":"但是有我們三方共同去找出符合這個主題的展品我們也從中看到了故宮所收藏的文物展品的多樣性其實是收羅包含了東西方然後跨時代的非常的豐富尤其是這樣子國際性的交流合作我想也對我們故宮讓世界更多人看見"},{"start":8809.401,"end":8820.37,"text":"我們的珍貴我覺得是一個很好的努力所以呢我覺得未來我們可以有更多這樣的國際交流的合作不過在相關的動線上面因為當天我們去的時候是禮拜一我們最近因為這個我知道來觀展非常的踴躍所以我們開放週一現在也可以觀展但是在這個動線上面我看網友給我們一些建議"},{"start":8834.582,"end":8851.237,"text":"﹚"},{"start":8852.098,"end":8858.485,"text":"國際交流之外我想我們故宮跟在地的交流連結也非常的重要在今天的業務報告裡面我也看到我們已經展現相當豐碩的成果其中上一次就在這個地方跟院長也討論過就是故宮跟在我們萬華的龍山寺有合作"},{"start":8871.119,"end":8876.241,"text":"希望由故宮來當領頭羊也帶領了這些國際訪客或者國內的訪客能夠走進臺北更多的區域認識我們臺灣特色之美剛剛院長有提到說跟龍山寺的合作很多因為我是龍山寺出資所以我想不只是跟廟宇的合作跟社會各界的合作例如說我看到的是我們跟故宮跟Meta"},{"start":8898.988,"end":8922.449,"text":"也有合作一個城市尋寶遊戲好然後我們跟過去跟臺灣吧也有合作來做這個兒少影片的介紹那甚至呢故宮現在跟榮總也有合作來做樂齡的課程例如說包括一些失智症患者失智症的陪伴等等我們去結合藝術與醫療我覺得這些通通都是非常好的嘗試包括故宮辦理了亞洲藝術節嗎"},{"start":8926.152,"end":8938.37,"text":"．"},{"start":8939.5,"end":8963.049,"text":"經費的話基本上來講是故宮出的那他們提供相對的比如說場地然後跟那個學員的部分但包括他們把他們的醫療人員都帶進來所以基本上來講的話大家共同參與那因為這個經費的話基本上來講的話除了那個那個卡牌之外的話其實花費不多"},{"start":8963.891,"end":8966.013,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":8980.209,"end":9002.275,"text":"國外的部分的話他們提供的展覽的內容那另外他們當然就是說另外一種模式的話就是他們會跟百貨公司跟這些串聯然後推展他們比如說像琉球在地的一些食品或是紀念品推動觀光基本上來講的話是採取一個付費的方式在進行"},{"start":9003.095,"end":9032.188,"text":"今天很多人提到說明年就是故宮百年故宮百年的歷史起點從哪裡開始呢從把這個末代皇帝溥儀的皇宮貼上封條交由善後委員會然後開始來辦理讓人民進故宮來參觀這個起點開始所以我想故宮一項很重要的使命就是要包圍他的社會影響力那剛剛我提到種種跟榮總的合作或者是像我們要跟"},{"start":9032.788,"end":9058.858,"text":"其他國家合作這些計畫我想有很多都是需要除了故宮以外我們中央其他部會各個單位大家可以一起來合作的所以有相關需要的地方例如說禮拜五我也才要去我們萬華龍山寺跟董事長討論我們在地的國際交流因為捷克棒球國家隊馬上要來台灣我也邀請他們來我們萬華走訪我們非常的樂意跟故宮一起來跟我們"},{"start":9060.018,"end":9079.933,"text":"自己政府各個部門或者是民間社會單位來合作我覺得明年的百年故宮我們更加要去展現我們故宮的社會影響力那再來要跟院長討論的是呢永續發展淨零碳排這是我們整體國家的政策那行政院呢其實也有相關的委員會我們必須要來做這個我們的氣候行動所以呢我們故宮有沒有開始在做我們的碳盤查了因為要先盤查才有辦法來減碳嘛"},{"start":9090.382,"end":9095.788,"text":"探盤查的話北院正在進行中南院的話明年會進行"},{"start":9097.199,"end":9106.304,"text":"所以北越我們是預計今年底可以完成出盤應該是因為今年他的計畫是今年做那南越明年做好那這一點很重要因為我們是整個國家整體大家要一起來來完成這個淨零碳排的目標所以從碳盤查開始基本做起那未來我們才能來進行減碳"},{"start":9121.372,"end":9137.92,"text":"對跟委員報告我們未來的故宮的所有建築的話都會以那個綠建築以環保標章的那樣的概念去做規劃所以南苑的話其實我們已經都有一些已經被列為一個標竿的建築其中因為故宮有有序發展小組嗎"},{"start":9138.76,"end":9156.729,"text":"我在你們的會議記錄裡面看到資訊委員有給我們建議就是我們每次展示的時候很多的展櫃相關這些材料能不能夠來跟管際之間合作做一個循環的利用但是我想這一點也需要文化部加入一起來做管際之間的協調所以我們目前有沒有相關的討論"},{"start":9158.69,"end":9181.658,"text":"基本上故宮來講展場的話它是邊櫃邊櫃是固定的然後獨立櫃獨立櫃的話是可以移動可是基本上來講的話都是循環再利用重複再利用就是說因為換一次的話要花很大的錢那最近一次的話我們淘汰了一些展櫃的話是因為台灣大學成立了美術史的博物館"},{"start":9182.939,"end":9200.916,"text":"所以我們把那批東西就捐給台大這個循環在利用若有其他的管方有需要我們來協助我想我們就可以一起來溝通有需要文化部的地方那我也一起來幫忙協調很多人在問那個淡美不言的櫃子因為那個是他們製作的那個我知道他們要拿回去是是是那最後呢我們故宮有網路商品合作這個有一個網路商店"},{"start":9207.502,"end":9230.298,"text":"實體的跟網路的都有我知道這幾年來的這個行銷的成績是不斷的在成長不過因為審計部有提醒我們這個當中曾經廠商違約超過了一年就本來預定要上線的時間結果延宕了一年那後來我們故宮也一約遲一天罰一天總共罰了420萬也就是總共延遲了420天院長這發生什麼事有沒有掌握"},{"start":9237.016,"end":9262.874,"text":"這個是我到任之前的來請說明報告委員是因為網路新商城還有新POST系統他們沒有依照時間把那新系統上架但是我們原來的系統還是繼續維運是因為延遲一年420天這當中都沒有辦法來補救我覺得希望這樣的狀況下不為例可不可以做到可以我們對那個"},{"start":9264.975,"end":9265.655,"text":"接下來我們請范雲委員"},{"start":9303.461,"end":9306.311,"text":"謝謝召委有請院長有請校院長"},{"start":9310.001,"end":9336.087,"text":"委員早院長早安今天想跟您請教兩題一個就是我之前問過的故宮的無障礙另外一個就是文物管理跟保存有沒有達到國際的標準那首先下一頁今年3月我那個時候就質詢過故宮無障礙的參與規劃跟機制不知道院長是不是記得我當時有三大要求"},{"start":9339.466,"end":9341.77,"text":"提醒一下院長我當時的三大要求是這樣第一個要有專責的單位或是主管進行故宮整體規劃那就算沒有專責"},{"start":9353.408,"end":9353.448,"text":"無障礙規劃討論"},{"start":9380.437,"end":9403.17,"text":"決策有無必須要有身障者過半的前置參與那第三個訴求是實施之後要有定期的檢討機制那這個部分院長你們回給我的報告裡面奇怪這為什麼沒有辦法控制我現在可以控制嗎"},{"start":9408.994,"end":9421.327,"text":"我們再回到上一頁好嗎上一頁就是你們回過的報告好像就是第一點就是你們只有觀眾的服務"},{"start":9422.028,"end":9443.255,"text":"那是否能夠參考就是好像沒有辦法有一個專責的單位或者是專人那能不能參考國際經驗有專責的單位或主管從政策規劃及經營的面向融入這個EDI呢就是平等多元跟共融這是第一個部分院長覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":9444.115,"end":9468.49,"text":"跟委員報告就是一般來講的話如果硬體的無障礙設施的話當然是秘書室管理然後那個展場的服務的部分的話是那個展圖處那其實我們有一個提示服務品質的一個小組其實這個小組的話就統合這兩個部門甚至其他的業務部門在有關觀眾服務或是那個"},{"start":9469.671,"end":9472.113,"text":"我還是覺得至少要有專人因為他要處理所有的觀眾服務其實範圍就很大那就沒有辦法針對這個就是無障礙的設施進行處理"},{"start":9494.011,"end":9496.214,"text":"無障礙的相關討論我看你們都是個案式並沒有制度化院長是不是能夠演繹成立專門處理長色性身心障礙"},{"start":9510.194,"end":9524.644,"text":"只要叫他諮詢委員會那其實應該就能夠定期吸收相關的意見也能夠持續進步呢這個部分我想就預算上也不會花你們很多的經費那院長是不是可能承諾來研議這個部分呢"},{"start":9527.713,"end":9548.303,"text":"因為我們有一個OK因為基本上來講的話我們好幾個委員會再多一個諮詢會不是委員會再多一個諮詢會當然是我們在做業務上的整合因為事實上"},{"start":9549.223,"end":9569.894,"text":"例如委員之前講的在我們的那個無障礙聯同道的話那我們就特別就請身心障礙的朋友來來來參議我知道你有很多委員會了可是就是說故宮這麼的重要如果我們連一個諮詢委員會都不願意給身心障礙的這個領域的話我想這個議題是不可能做的好的好嗎好我們來演繹"},{"start":9572.856,"end":9579.752,"text":"那再來的話所以這兩個要求是不是院長可不可以3個月內給我報告好不好好"},{"start":9581.158,"end":9609.816,"text":"就是專責單位或主管那我今天已經通融至少是專人吧那有先求有我們再求那身心障礙諮詢委員會的一個演繹好不好OK好那它包括硬體跟軟體就是包括那個硬體跟軟體當然你講說委員會對因為身心障礙的話當然包括整個設施的當然啦我想應該就是我們以國際為標準一步一步改善好不好"},{"start":9611.177,"end":9637.819,"text":"再來就是之前我們也有大家關心過故宮在文物管理上發生的摔毀文物的一個不幸的重大事件我今天是想要追蹤這個部分因為這個月你們也剛針對作業流程出版手冊我辦公室也有拿到我想這是一個進展但是我想要了解的是到底有沒有達到現代化博物館的國際標準"},{"start":9639.54,"end":9644.614,"text":"比如說以知名的韓國中央博物館為例 這個部分你們比較過嗎 然後有沒有達到國際標準"},{"start":9648.859,"end":9667.054,"text":"如果要我講故宮有沒有達到國際標準當然有因為包括包括他的那個管理的機制然後他的環境控制基本上是有可是我們的設備比較傳統一點比如說我們還是有些文物在庫房在山洞但是一人在山洞是這樣嗎"},{"start":9677.233,"end":9704.119,"text":"在山東故宮我們也都會保持他很好的溫控什麼安全管理都沒有問題但因為韓國中央博物館的話他是把原來的韓國的那個李氏王朝的建築原來的韓國的殖民博物館改新建的所以他是一個現代的博物館現代的博物館的話當然他在設施上面的話就是跟故宮過去有一點點近現代的博物館有點不一樣"},{"start":9705.54,"end":9725.699,"text":"館長從您的專業知識您上任到現在大概多久了我一年10個月吧一年10個月超過一年了應該可以了解目前這個硬體標準到底能不能在維持的水平上就是不要在發生不幸的事件上拿到一個以韓國中央博物館為例的這個國際標準"},{"start":9729.683,"end":9734.649,"text":"以南院來講的話我們的庫房的管理機制跟設施的話絕對不會輸給國際但是南院的部分的話我們全部對"},{"start":9745.162,"end":9760.21,"text":"會議在在今年的話就是行政大樓完工之後同仁班下來我們會進行那個研究大樓的一個庫房的改善庫房的改善的話包括裡面的空間的設施管線我們都會重新處理就會達到一個國際的"},{"start":9761.411,"end":9778.838,"text":"我知道你的意思就是說還沒達到正在努力還要等新的工程建築完成那是不是給我三個月內也給我一個報告好嗎就是說我們就以韓國的這個中央博物館為例好不好"},{"start":9780.199,"end":9780.339,"text":"謝謝范芸昕、趙偉"},{"start":9807.164,"end":9831.438,"text":"王宏威委員 王宏威委員 王宏威委員不在鄭正琴委員 鄭正琴委員 鄭正琴委員不在何信淳委員 何信淳委員 何信淳委員不在張家俊委員 張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在林俊憲委員 林俊憲委員 林俊憲委員不在高金素美委員 高金素美委員 高金素美委員不在邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員 邱志偉委員不在廖憲祥委員 廖憲祥委員 廖憲祥委員不在林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在"},{"start":9832.038,"end":9842.906,"text":"陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在徐巧欣委員徐巧欣委員徐巧欣委員不在顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在好接下來我們有請羅廷維委員質詢羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員羅廷維議員"},{"start":9864.38,"end":9891.476,"text":"好院長好院長我想請問一下昨天我有看到一個有趣的統計交通部觀光署最新公佈的數據顯示我們今年1月到6月博物館的參訪人數人次的排行榜你有看到嗎有看到第一名是中正紀念堂195萬人次故宮博物院在第6名89萬7252人當然我有特別注意到12名故宮南院"},{"start":9892.236,"end":9917.939,"text":"有42萬多人次我想這個數據每年幾乎都會出一次每一年的排名都有所變動當然我們不要說一定要照今年的就特別來做一個批評或者是給予一個鼓勵但標題總是離不開台灣最強博物館的字眼想請問一下院長這樣的數據院長有沒有什麼看法你覺得故宮是不是台灣最強的博物館"},{"start":9918.93,"end":9927.437,"text":"故宮目前為止的話還是台灣最強的博物館但是現在的這樣的觀眾人次的確是不滿意"},{"start":9930.353,"end":9944.789,"text":"的確是什麼的確是沒有辦法讓人家滿意是自己不滿意是嗎自己不滿意我想外界大概也會覺得也會覺得可以再加強一下是吧我想謝謝院長的回應我是認為參觀人數他是一個觀光統計的數據但能不能用這些數據來評比哪一個博物館是最強的實際上的確有待商榷"},{"start":9952.717,"end":9965.126,"text":"故宮身為國家級的博物館館長的歷史與文化價值是無庸置疑的可是這件事情也很奇怪院長我先問你一下你的數據跟我數據有沒有一樣請問故宮現在的館長有多少"},{"start":9968.139,"end":9988.204,"text":"大概70萬件啦好不好70萬件可以說是全國之最全國之首那麼豐富的館藏是可以吸引遊客的一個賣點然而實際參觀人數卻不太如你我還有全民的預期請問院長對於這種現象有沒有進行分析大數據的剖析有嗎"},{"start":9990.484,"end":9998.677,"text":"大概只憑個人的經驗當然真的沒有去做過調查研究去做過一個很嚴謹的分析有沒有做過相關的民調"},{"start":10000.516,"end":10005.36,"text":"今天給你一個建議是不是我們來對全民來做一個民調什麼樣的一個慣常什麼樣的一個措施不只是滿意度"},{"start":10022.134,"end":10038.825,"text":"對我有交代同仁的話要去進行未來會進行一個不是單純的所以滿意度的民調因為單純滿意度的民調的話會填單子的大部分都是滿意那不滿意的當然也有可是那個而且基本上就現有的狀況他們能知道的就是這樣因為"},{"start":10039.645,"end":10060.542,"text":"來到現場展覽嘛他們不知道你還能夠多好所以用滿意度我覺得有失公平未來是不是展覽策劃方面的問題還是展品有重複性質的問題或者是更新頻率不夠高這個部分導致觀眾的情這個興趣啊有有疑慮甚至有降低這是不是我們可以來做研究"},{"start":10060.982,"end":10084.055,"text":"是我們會來從各種不同的面向來檢討我另外請問你70萬件你個人的經驗瞭解這70萬件全部都有展覽過嗎沒有因為70萬件裡面的話其實圖書文獻包括那個上本圖書的話大概近60萬件所以真正的70萬件的話其實不到10萬件是長"},{"start":10086.016,"end":10088.037,"text":"所以故宮內部有評估大概68 69萬件左右的展品屬於書類的可能比較不能夠全數展覽"},{"start":10112.631,"end":10140.028,"text":"好當然我們希望能夠內部做一個檢討那也希望能夠去了解不同年齡層對於文化背景的觀眾民眾他的弱點在哪裡喜歡一下什麼樣的一個展覽品比如說假設啦女生喜歡珠寶類啊男性喜歡看工藝類啊這個部分的一個調查我希望其實你們應該好好的去做一個大數據的統計那當然我另外要講我們也看到這個南院有42萬的人次展覽現在80萬"},{"start":10141.749,"end":10149.296,"text":"未來不管是這個所謂的展覽品我們的館藏這麼多有沒有機會到台中來做一個展覽甚至有機會到這個故宮中院有這樣子的一個產生"},{"start":10163.49,"end":10183.337,"text":"院長喊話一下有沒有一個態度為我們中部的人來謀福利我在那個國美館的時候臺中國立臺灣美術館的時候其實我就辦過四館的連展就是故宮博物院臺北館然後齊美博物館跟東京富士美術館所以到中部去展覽是沒有問題崔白菜也去過臺中"},{"start":10184.677,"end":10204.24,"text":"至於所謂的我剛聽到所謂的故宮中分院這個信息的話是我記得胡志強當市長的時候是有提過那也有評估過那在那個故宮所謂的南院南院的話其實所謂南院的話包括中部"},{"start":10204.941,"end":10230.991,"text":"包括彰化也都提案來爭取最後選定嘉義但是是不是有可能說在中部有一個什麼樣的情況因為像我們去年也是到彰化美術館去展覽就是說到底是要有一個固定的展場或是說我們有展覽故宮出遊區可以到中部這個我們基本上來講的話是大家可以來進一步討論"},{"start":10231.291,"end":10234.533,"text":"我們會來評估接下來剛剛你有提到之前你當國美館的館長也有相關的一個配合是不是您可以答應我最近近期我們開始來規劃"},{"start":10257.472,"end":10284.295,"text":"明年度有這個機會故宮的一些館長而且是重要的館長來到台中再一次的來跟大家分享跟委員報告就是現在的話當然國美館的話是有標準的展覽空間是可以沒有問題那我期待的話未來的立美圖就是台中式的美術館如果有適當的機會的話那我們倒是願意去立美圖那邊幫他們"},{"start":10285.476,"end":10296.889,"text":"雖然綠美圖很棒,但國美館是我的選區阿好不好先以國美館,欸你娘家捏,你老家族你沒去購一個可不可以先以這個明年阿一邊規劃國美館阿綠美圖也可以做考慮但國美館為先這個部分來做一個慎重的考慮"},{"start":10302.875,"end":10303.395,"text":"其實我一個建議就是國美館"},{"start":10329.989,"end":10354.908,"text":"配合大敦文化中心屯區文化中心能夠做一次就是將多數的故宮館藏移施到中部尤其是台中一次做分部分點分區特色比如說珠寶類的假設全部在國美館工藝類的全部在大敦文化中心做一個我們都市一個藝文展覽的一天的一個規劃讓大家能夠來參觀這些文物館藏"},{"start":10358.431,"end":10381.929,"text":"這個部分會後我們是不是能夠持續的來討論跟文報告一下因為大敦的話基本上來講的話他的展場的空間條件的話大概是還要加強還要加強故宮現在在從事故宮國寶出遊其實還有一個還有一個功能性就是說因為故宮國寶出遊我們就譬如說彰化我們就會把他的展場調整到"},{"start":10383.53,"end":10409.903,"text":"可以達到一個國際標準故宮的文物可以在台南所以我們是不是就用這樣子的概念好用這樣子的概念國美館綠美圖甚至你說的彰化我們來做一個中部地區的一個規劃讓中部的這個所謂故宮館長能夠移世到這邊來帶動中部地區的一個宣傳甚至有機會想再看回到我們故宮再來一次欣賞"},{"start":10410.563,"end":10433.43,"text":"我講這部分也是做一個有非常意義的一個宣傳喔這個部分您可以答應我嗎我們會來演繹因為牽涉到很多不同的觀點因為有些人認為說故宮就在台北那麼近為什麼還要老實動眾跑到但你曾經做過嘛你剛剛答應我的嘛對不對所以再一次嘛這不是沒有前例啊依前例有機會再一次好不好我們來演繹"},{"start":10441.94,"end":10451.546,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷輝委員接下來我們有請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在羅明采委員羅明采委員羅明采委員不在接下來我們有請葉元智委員質詢"},{"start":10472.881,"end":10477.784,"text":"主席您好請找故宮博物院院長好有請蕭院長院長早安故宮博物院裡面的國保大家都非常的重視也希望國保可以有好的保存然後也希望國保如果就是平常有什麼問題的話可以及時的修復而且可以定期的保養"},{"start":10500.12,"end":10524.082,"text":"那在這個部分的話能力就非常的重要就是到底我們有沒有這方面的專業的人才到底有沒有足夠的能力可以去修復我現在先跟院長討論一個就是有關於織品的部分先請教院長在我們故宮博物院裡面織品有沒有什麼比較有名的一些國寶你跟大家分享一下有沒有就你的了解"},{"start":10525.647,"end":10547.613,"text":"對製品的國寶的話我不是很清楚因為有客司有製品的部分所以故宮博物院院長對於國寶不是很了解喔不是製品的部分的話因為北院比較少南院比較多但是國寶的部分的話的確國寶我是不清楚製品裡面有哪些是國寶"},{"start":10549.982,"end":10575.874,"text":"我問說在故宮的典藏裡面有沒有織品比較有名的比如說這個故宮國寶比如說像翠白菜大家都講出來嘛清明上河圖是屬於書畫部分啊然後像肉形石等等等等我現在是問說有沒有您覺得很有名的織品有沒有我跟委員報告實話實說真的我你真的不知道對所以是因為沒有還是你不知道"},{"start":10577.726,"end":10579.707,"text":"資品裏面有沒有國寶?"},{"start":10579.707,"end":10590.832,"text":"我不曉得同仁跟我講說有一間國寶就是魯惠及景冊花間形容就是有一間國寶"},{"start":10592.634,"end":10609.975,"text":"應該不只啦應該不只啦我們應該有好幾件應該是有好幾件那希望那為什麼我會特別講織品呢因為我們現在根據故宮的典藏文物織品的數量大概是有1626件基本上它也不算少它比玉器啊漆器"},{"start":10610.936,"end":10632.94,"text":"還有像雕刻啊這一類都多那當然是略少於陶瓷器跟銅器但他應該也算是非常多元多量的一個國寶之一但是現在有一個非常嚴重的問題什麼問題呢這個這個表格啊院長看一下這是113年10月修護人員的配置我們會發現在這個書畫類的"},{"start":10636.081,"end":10652.137,"text":"人員總共編制是6位古籍檔案編制人員是5位器物的編制人員是4位但是織品類編制內只有一位編制外零換句話說這剛剛我講到這1000多件的織品"},{"start":10653.28,"end":10670.539,"text":"是誰來修復誰來保養就只有一位同仁只有一位同仁那這一位同仁他還沒有職務代理人如果他今天有事請假休假那或者是說萬一他離職那現在我們就沒有人負責織品了"},{"start":10671.701,"end":10686.462,"text":"但是這個我個人覺得是一件算是嚴重的事情而且我不知道院長你知不知道其實故宮的像這種修復人員不管你是修復書畫器物啊或者是哪一類的人員都很搶手國外有很多拍賣中心啊"},{"start":10687.829,"end":10716.889,"text":"蘇比士或什麼的拍賣中心都很喜歡挖角故宮的這一類人才因為這一類人才對於這種有價值的文物是比較有鑑定能力的他們都很喜歡找故宮人才去那萬一你現在看起來雖然像是什麼器物啊侍衛看起來比較多但是一旦面臨到挖角或者是他有事情因任何的原因離職你就沒有人在做這件事情了這個其實我覺得"},{"start":10717.929,"end":10741.565,"text":"是還蠻嚴重的事情我不知道說院長你的看法是怎樣先講資品的部分因為故宮的確就是有一千多件的資品那一千多件的資品的話其實以分類的類像來講是最少的雖然是所謂的滑鐵或是踏片比他多可是因為他放在書文的整體的類像裡面所以資品的部分的話因為"},{"start":10743.526,"end":10760.571,"text":"國際展示的機會也比較少然後他狀況也比較穩定那最近的話其實那個數量大部分很多都是藍燕的藍燕的資品的狀況入場的時候狀況都不錯所以並不是說每一件都要拿來修修補補沒有因為買的時候就已經挑過了"},{"start":10761.856,"end":10790.976,"text":"我覺得也不是院長這樣講好像資品在故宮博物院不重要一樣但是其實故宮南院最近才辦了一個亞洲資品展所以代表說資品對你們來說也是很重要的保障正義但是院長給我的感覺是說資品沒那麼嚴重也不容易壞然後我們量也不多所以助理研究員藝人還好啦"},{"start":10791.756,"end":10803.771,"text":"你是這個意思嗎?那你覺得一個人夠的嗎?我當然希望有更多的人力你希望有更多人力可是你剛剛給我的感覺不是第一時間這樣子回答啊如果我們今天把這個問題告訴你"},{"start":10805.393,"end":10825.179,"text":"你如果認為這個人力不夠你第一時間回答應該是說你覺得我們應該要挖掘更多人才來讓我們的國保得到妥善的照顧但是你的回答不是啊你的回答是說跟委員報告資品其實在我們故宮裡面不算多啦所以你的回答的方式其實第一時間就凸顯你內心的真正想法"},{"start":10825.879,"end":10825.919,"text":"國保委員會長"},{"start":10856.159,"end":10881.469,"text":"那所以我再問你一次,現在職品研究員一人你覺得夠嗎?整體來講的話,我剛先講職品,整體來講的話故宮的修復人力其實是不足的。不足的,那請問一下你提出了什麼改善的計畫,要擴充人力?因為擴充人力的話,其實以故宮編制來講的話每年都減一兩個減一兩個,實際上要擴充人力不太容易。那你就覺得,不是啦,院長。"},{"start":10884.09,"end":10910.871,"text":"我們未來在南院的話就會有一個專業的修復工房那這個專業的修復工房的話未來的話就要銜接國內的比如說南義大他有谷物修復研究所或是營科大他們這些同仁的話在學校的時候進入到一個階段就可以跟故宮建教合作用這樣的方式我覺得反不濟急啦現在講的計畫都還很久遠請你先提一個方案出來好不好擴充這個人力啦"},{"start":10911.894,"end":10927.659,"text":"因為擴充能力的話就要要求增加能力這個是沒有不太容易的那另外的話所以就擺爛喔不是擺爛另外的話像比如說我在臺北館的時候我會擺沒有啦我不用扯這麼遠啦現在就你自己也認為能力不夠嘛那你要不要擴充嘛就這個問題那麼簡單嘛"},{"start":10929.182,"end":10950.101,"text":"要還是不要的問題而已嘛要就提出方案出來嘛OK好我們想辦法來擴充然後我會去跟行政院爭取在我們的基建這樣才對嘛你為什麼剛剛回答的感覺都是你根本不重視這件事情不是不重視然後另外一件事情這個你就提方案出來還有一個就是我們上個會期一直要求你去做的我們一直希望說故宮博物院可以去"},{"start":10952.743,"end":10977.578,"text":"這爭取自己的權益跟商譽啦那這個所謂的台北故宮交友中心這是一個冒用的一個抖音上面的帳號明明就不是故宮的授權單位但他卻可以在平台上面大剌剌的做授權的生意那這個上個會期故宮說要去提告啊啊結果提告到哪裡去了提告了他已經下架了沒有這昨天才查到的啊怎麼會下架"},{"start":10979.93,"end":10997.321,"text":"因為我們大概起碼至少一季就上次去告一次可是你們就是隨隨便便嗎就是沒有認真去告嗎有叫警察積極去查嗎因為這個部分的話警察沒有辦法查我們透過大陸的律師怎麼會沒有辦法查現在的司法有那麼弱嗎"},{"start":11002.564,"end":11019.169,"text":"決心的問題啦你最近一次處理這個事情是什麼時候七月份吧七月份現在幾月現在十月那你覺得三個月不問不問這樣對嗎沒有啦一季處理一次所以這個東西在網路上你們也不覺得很重要嗎"},{"start":11020.568,"end":11046.394,"text":"請你捍衛你自己的商譽好嗎?如果有人打著故宮的名號在做授權生意你們卻覺得無所謂一記再處理一次就好了這就是回到剛剛的態度就是故宮對於國保不重視故宮對於商譽也不重視這個我自己認為說這個是院長最應該做的事情啦但是我覺得很遺憾就是你對於外界期待你的工作你並不是那麼的重視那如果沒關係下次我再繼續問你啦好謝謝"},{"start":11050.265,"end":11057.433,"text":"好謝謝葉元智委員那我們現場現在還有陳冠廷委員在現場那我們請陳冠廷委員質詢時間4分鐘好謝謝趙偉我們請院長有請蕭院長"},{"start":11069.888,"end":11092.608,"text":"委員長好,在2018年的時候行政院長賴清德有對外公開說故宮為了要落實維護國寶的安全之外也要推廣全民的藝術教育今天的報告第6頁有提到說友善共榮文化平權透過執行新故宮計畫達到更親民的全民博物館那我針對"},{"start":11094.696,"end":11097.338,"text":"今年這個數字有沒有辦法突破一萬五千人?"},{"start":11115.506,"end":11139.522,"text":"我為什麼講這些事情是因為你們現在接待了41所偏商學校來參加其實這個數字有點太少了根據教育部一年的這個學年度的偏遠地區國中小學統計資料裡面光是偏遠地區的中小學就有1138家我們嘉義縣就有78間故宮南院就在嘉義縣這代表說落實這個專案計畫連我們嘉義在地的偏鄉都沒有完全照顧到"},{"start":11140.502,"end":11164.439,"text":"這個部分我很會懷疑說執行這個平權的這個決心跟意志所以院長可不可以至少在我們嘉義縣在故宮南院就在我們嘉義有沒有辦法提升我們這個偏鄉的參與我們來努力努力還是有一個數字就是你自己覺得可以怎麼樣提升大概你們的目標是怎麼樣目標目標的話南院"},{"start":11170.583,"end":11193.34,"text":"今年南院說今年大概會有20所學校,剛剛還是很少啦好沒關係我們慢慢來嘛一步一步來今年比去年好明年比今年好那再來就是說打造全民博物館我想另外一個就是全民的這個藝術的教育那其實故宮南院它的展館是非常的龐大的那其實有一些可以閒置的空間可以活化我是建議說可以支持"},{"start":11193.74,"end":11223.38,"text":"台灣甚至是我們嘉義至少要回饋嘉義縣本土的藝術我們這邊有很多藝術家包含在這個你說嘉義鐵孩子竹崎的這個中埔的蘭蘭這些都是本土的重要的藝術那對他們來講對我們嘉義縣的藝術家來講如果有機會在故宮南院的閒置空間能夠作為一些他們把他們的表演物品能夠去展現的話對於他們的肯定對於嘉義縣的肯定也是很高有沒有可能規劃相關的可能性"},{"start":11224.361,"end":11249.782,"text":"相關的空間基本上來講因為故宮不管南院北院有它的展覽的屬性跟歷史定位如果在一個開放空間的話基本上來講的話這個我們來努力如果你們擔心說跟主軸不太符合的話那你們還是可以做審查嘛可以提出一個機制讓在地的藝術家有機會配合你看最近是"},{"start":11250.162,"end":11250.322,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11272.737,"end":11290.722,"text":"相關的展覽的時候其實我們如果有可能融入的話我們會融入在展覽那另外的話推廣教育活動或是推廣教育的展示這個部分的話我們來研究謝謝謝謝謝謝院長那最後就是故宮南院的規劃問題現在故宮南院的總面積是70公頃包含博物區大概是20公頃園區50公頃"},{"start":11293.443,"end":11315.088,"text":"總地板是38333平方公尺就算加上國保文物修復展示館22641平方公尺也才6萬多平方公尺只佔博物館區的20公頃的小部分院長北部的院區大約是21公頃但是總樓地板面積就有58000看看北院就會知道說南院的非常空曠這是不合理的規劃所以"},{"start":11316.488,"end":11332.733,"text":"我還是希望院長能夠思考一下故宮南院未來整個園區的規劃增加更多的展場跟典藏空間讓故宮南院可以成為中南部的真正意義的大型博物館好不好OK我們努力因為這會牽涉到一個參觀的因素的問題謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢那今天院長先請回"},{"start":11343.08,"end":11372.159,"text":"好我們今天登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢另有吳春城委員提出書面的質詢那關於今天會議做成一個如下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":11373.08,"end":11396.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11408.302,"end":11425.998,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11463.576,"end":11463.596,"text":"來過了。"},{"start":11476.669,"end":11478.414,"text":"委員會委員會"}]}},{"id":"16208","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16208","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d5998180c4b1e7cf490a0be61fea148186059d4d42a7fce217ecaecd9364fcada5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:59:00+08:00","duration":16110,"影片長度":"04:28:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 12:59:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":131.16659375,"end":136.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":673.29284375,"end":673.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1699.78221875,"end":1700.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1764.48096875,"end":1765.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1848.0628437500002,"end":1851.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1853.9690937500002,"end":1857.1922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1858.27221875,"end":1863.5878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1864.17846875,"end":1869.6122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1870.0340937500002,"end":1871.7215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1872.1097187500002,"end":1874.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1874.3372187500001,"end":1876.3959687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1876.5815937500001,"end":1879.7203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1880.0409687500003,"end":1886.9259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1887.38159375,"end":1888.8497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1889.1028437500001,"end":1892.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1892.8153437500002,"end":1895.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1896.2747187500001,"end":1898.8397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1899.2278437500001,"end":1901.1347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1901.86034375,"end":1904.6447187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1905.1340937500001,"end":1906.7540937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1907.1590937500002,"end":1915.8665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1916.3728437500001,"end":1921.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1921.4859687500002,"end":1925.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1925.8397187500002,"end":1936.7240937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1936.9434687500002,"end":1945.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1945.4990937500002,"end":1962.2728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1962.3740937500002,"end":1966.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1967.1834687500002,"end":1971.0140937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1971.4359687500003,"end":1975.8909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1976.5153437500003,"end":1980.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1981.2065937500001,"end":1983.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1983.4509687500001,"end":1988.1590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1991.2809687500003,"end":1991.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1991.29784375,"end":1996.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1998.8578437500003,"end":2002.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2003.8865937500002,"end":2009.9278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2010.4003437500003,"end":2013.0497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2013.0834687500003,"end":2014.0453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2014.6697187500001,"end":2019.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2023.7315937500002,"end":2026.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2030.7178437500002,"end":2031.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2034.5990937500003,"end":2036.2697187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2039.4928437500002,"end":2040.4715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2044.4878437500001,"end":2047.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2050.9678437500006,"end":2053.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2056.28346875,"end":2059.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2062.7803437500006,"end":2063.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2063.70846875,"end":2066.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2070.50909375,"end":2072.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2076.60096875,"end":2078.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2083.0134687500004,"end":2085.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2087.9747187500006,"end":2089.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2092.5309687500003,"end":2094.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2097.15471875,"end":2099.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2102.6053437500004,"end":2105.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2108.1403437500003,"end":2110.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2113.30409375,"end":2115.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2119.63221875,"end":2121.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2125.2009687500004,"end":2126.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2130.55034375,"end":2132.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2133.0984687500004,"end":2134.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2139.4265937500004,"end":2142.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2145.50159375,"end":2147.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2148.13409375,"end":2149.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2152.3190937500003,"end":2155.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2159.4909687500003,"end":2162.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2162.71409375,"end":2163.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2168.3672187500006,"end":2171.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2176.2647187500006,"end":2178.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2182.00221875,"end":2184.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2187.92534375,"end":2190.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2194.01721875,"end":2196.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2200.3622187500005,"end":2202.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2205.5428437500004,"end":2208.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2212.2928437500004,"end":2215.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2218.46909375,"end":2221.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2225.59034375,"end":2227.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2231.9522187500006,"end":2233.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2234.4665937500004,"end":2235.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2238.60096875,"end":2240.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2246.7178437500006,"end":2257.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2258.29409375,"end":2260.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2263.66034375,"end":2281.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2290.8290937500005,"end":2308.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2308.56471875,"end":2320.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2320.57971875,"end":2330.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2330.80596875,"end":2336.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2337.5222187500003,"end":2353.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2366.37846875,"end":2368.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2369.14596875,"end":2380.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2380.58721875,"end":2382.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2382.52784375,"end":2387.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2387.7253437500003,"end":2389.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2389.56471875,"end":2391.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2391.92721875,"end":2395.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2395.2178437500006,"end":2399.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2400.31409375,"end":2406.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2406.3553437500004,"end":2410.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2410.89471875,"end":2426.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2427.06096875,"end":2432.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2433.0684687500006,"end":2442.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2442.4003437500005,"end":2442.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2443.02471875,"end":2446.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2447.73284375,"end":2452.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2452.9978437500004,"end":2455.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2455.3603437500005,"end":2456.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2456.96346875,"end":2459.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2460.27096875,"end":2461.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2461.3678437500002,"end":2465.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2465.40096875,"end":2466.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2467.49346875,"end":2472.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2472.7078437500004,"end":2473.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2473.70346875,"end":2476.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2476.0828437500004,"end":2477.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2478.7490937500006,"end":2481.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2481.55034375,"end":2484.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2484.68909375,"end":2486.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2486.7478437500004,"end":2493.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2493.71721875,"end":2496.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2497.34534375,"end":2498.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2499.15096875,"end":2503.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2504.4834687500006,"end":2509.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2510.17034375,"end":2513.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2513.7478437500004,"end":2515.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2516.36346875,"end":2519.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2519.68784375,"end":2523.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2523.41721875,"end":2524.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2524.93596875,"end":2525.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2526.1003437500003,"end":2530.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2531.1628437500003,"end":2533.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2534.3690937500005,"end":2540.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2540.78159375,"end":2546.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2547.27846875,"end":2548.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2549.57346875,"end":2549.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2550.31596875,"end":2550.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2551.5478437500005,"end":2552.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2553.0497187500005,"end":2558.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2558.73659375,"end":2559.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2560.00221875,"end":2562.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2562.9890937500004,"end":2565.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2566.04346875,"end":2567.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2567.41034375,"end":2569.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2569.84034375,"end":2570.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2571.0215937500006,"end":2576.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2576.64096875,"end":2578.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2578.5478437500005,"end":2581.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2581.51784375,"end":2582.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2583.0028437500005,"end":2585.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2585.85471875,"end":2588.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2588.40284375,"end":2589.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2590.51221875,"end":2591.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2591.6090937500003,"end":2594.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2594.47784375,"end":2598.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2599.30409375,"end":2599.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2600.45159375,"end":2610.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2610.74534375,"end":2614.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2614.4072187500005,"end":2616.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2616.8709687500004,"end":2617.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2617.8328437500004,"end":2620.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2621.12346875,"end":2621.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2622.1865937500006,"end":2622.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2623.2497187500003,"end":2623.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2623.89096875,"end":2625.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2626.55721875,"end":2627.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2627.70471875,"end":2628.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2629.08846875,"end":2631.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2631.55221875,"end":2635.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2636.4459687500002,"end":2638.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2639.1628437500003,"end":2644.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2645.2040937500005,"end":2645.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2645.9128437500003,"end":2649.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2649.76034375,"end":2651.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2651.5153437500003,"end":2651.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2652.4434687500006,"end":2656.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2657.47221875,"end":2658.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2659.37909375,"end":2660.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2661.31971875,"end":2662.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2663.14221875,"end":2663.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2663.78346875,"end":2664.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2665.36971875,"end":2665.9940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2666.8209687500002,"end":2668.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2668.5759687500004,"end":2671.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2671.7315937500007,"end":2676.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2677.2497187500003,"end":2679.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2680.0340937500005,"end":2682.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2683.0378437500003,"end":2684.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2685.31596875,"end":2686.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2687.42534375,"end":2690.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2690.73284375,"end":2693.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2693.5847187500003,"end":2694.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2694.64784375,"end":2695.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2696.3522187500002,"end":2699.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2699.5078437500006,"end":2700.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2701.0772187500006,"end":2705.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2706.4265937500004,"end":2710.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2710.91534375,"end":2716.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2716.9903437500006,"end":2718.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2718.86346875,"end":2720.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2721.05721875,"end":2723.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2723.9597187500003,"end":2725.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2725.49534375,"end":2729.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2730.6084687500006,"end":2730.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2731.30034375,"end":2739.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2739.83909375,"end":2741.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2742.38721875,"end":2744.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2745.2897187500002,"end":2747.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2748.15846875,"end":2751.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2751.85409375,"end":2752.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2753.35596875,"end":2759.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2760.0047187500004,"end":2760.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2761.7090937500006,"end":2765.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2766.2315937500007,"end":2767.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2768.4928437500002,"end":2769.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2769.1678437500004,"end":2770.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2771.2772187500004,"end":2773.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2774.44971875,"end":2775.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2776.5759687500004,"end":2779.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2779.63034375,"end":2780.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2781.08159375,"end":2785.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2785.7559687500006,"end":2788.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2788.8778437500005,"end":2790.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2790.9872187500005,"end":2796.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2804.26784375,"end":2807.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2808.01409375,"end":2810.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2811.1190937500005,"end":2812.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2812.7390937500004,"end":2815.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2815.8778437500005,"end":2818.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2819.0165937500005,"end":2821.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2831.09909375,"end":2840.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2833.7315937500007,"end":2833.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2833.74846875,"end":2833.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2833.9678437500006,"end":2834.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2834.0859687500006,"end":2834.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2834.10284375,"end":2834.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2840.7178437500006,"end":2841.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2847.1640937500006,"end":2848.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2848.9697187500005,"end":2868.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2868.3084687500004,"end":2875.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2875.26096875,"end":2889.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2890.2628437500007,"end":2895.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2896.47284375,"end":3051.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3052.21221875,"end":3054.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3054.5240937500002,"end":3067.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3055.4353437500004,"end":3055.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3057.88221875,"end":3058.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3061.20659375,"end":3061.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3064.2272187500002,"end":3065.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3066.15096875,"end":3073.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3067.5009687500005,"end":3067.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3073.6940937500003,"end":3121.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3074.52096875,"end":3074.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3076.3434687500003,"end":3076.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3090.11346875,"end":3090.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3121.09596875,"end":3164.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3122.90159375,"end":3123.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3123.9647187500004,"end":3123.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3132.2334687500006,"end":3133.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3165.0215937500006,"end":3216.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3190.2665937500005,"end":3191.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3216.2878437500003,"end":3216.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3216.8953437500004,"end":3219.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3218.92034375,"end":3223.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3222.48096875,"end":3224.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3223.5440937500007,"end":3225.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3225.9403437500005,"end":3230.1084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3226.8347187500003,"end":3251.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3241.1278437500005,"end":3241.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3251.3203437500006,"end":3254.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3251.99534375,"end":3252.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3254.7628437500007,"end":3256.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3254.9147187500002,"end":3257.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3257.0915937500004,"end":3260.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3258.64409375,"end":3259.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3259.58909375,"end":3264.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3261.3103437500004,"end":3261.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3264.29721875,"end":3275.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3273.6797187500006,"end":3282.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3277.91534375,"end":3279.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3282.8934687500005,"end":3296.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3283.5515937500004,"end":3283.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3283.6190937500005,"end":3284.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3290.99346875,"end":3291.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3291.01034375,"end":3291.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3291.53346875,"end":3291.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3296.4440937500003,"end":3327.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3301.37159375,"end":3303.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3303.0759687500004,"end":3303.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3328.25346875,"end":3361.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3361.51409375,"end":3416.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3419.68221875,"end":3420.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3421.9940937500005,"end":3426.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3426.8878437500007,"end":3427.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3428.5753437500007,"end":3434.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3434.75159375,"end":3462.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3443.59409375,"end":3443.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3462.0722187500005,"end":3468.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3463.8103437500004,"end":3464.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3468.29909375,"end":3470.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3469.27784375,"end":3494.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3470.66159375,"end":3471.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3495.13034375,"end":3496.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3496.5309687500003,"end":3507.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3508.0059687500006,"end":3512.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3512.0390937500006,"end":3514.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3513.86159375,"end":3520.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3515.73471875,"end":3516.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3520.2740937500002,"end":3524.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3520.93221875,"end":3521.3878437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3525.45471875,"end":3526.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3525.62346875,"end":3526.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3526.8553437500004,"end":3531.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3527.5134687500004,"end":3527.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3530.85471875,"end":3537.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3533.2340937500003,"end":3533.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3537.8747187500003,"end":3540.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3540.97971875,"end":3542.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3541.0303437500006,"end":3541.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3542.7009687500004,"end":3565.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3543.59534375,"end":3543.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3570.1903437500005,"end":3572.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3575.16846875,"end":3577.8009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3587.6559687500003,"end":3588.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3588.9215937500003,"end":3589.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3590.1872187500003,"end":3590.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3591.0984687500004,"end":3592.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3592.88721875,"end":3594.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3594.86159375,"end":3598.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3604.3622187500005,"end":3605.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3605.30721875,"end":3605.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3605.84721875,"end":3605.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3605.9147187500002,"end":3605.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3605.94846875,"end":3605.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3605.96534375,"end":3606.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3606.1678437500004,"end":3606.4884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3606.80909375,"end":3609.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3609.40784375,"end":3612.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3612.1247187500003,"end":3612.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3612.4959687500004,"end":3615.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3615.9890937500004,"end":3617.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3617.5584687500004,"end":3622.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3623.1609687500004,"end":3626.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3627.34596875,"end":3628.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3628.6959687500002,"end":3629.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3630.2147187500004,"end":3640.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3640.5759687500004,"end":3662.2265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3663.20534375,"end":3677.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3677.4815937500007,"end":3679.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3680.09721875,"end":3681.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3681.46409375,"end":3682.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3683.10096875,"end":3702.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3703.5534687500003,"end":3708.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3709.08846875,"end":3710.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3711.0965937500005,"end":3716.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3716.47971875,"end":3717.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3718.18409375,"end":3718.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3719.4159687500005,"end":3731.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3731.5153437500003,"end":3739.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3739.6659687500005,"end":3740.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3741.0497187500005,"end":3743.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3743.6315937500003,"end":3744.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3745.0322187500005,"end":3752.3390937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3752.6259687500005,"end":3762.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3765.07971875,"end":3779.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3780.4190937500007,"end":3789.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3789.9872187500005,"end":3791.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3791.8603437500005,"end":3793.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3793.51409375,"end":3801.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3802.62659375,"end":3816.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3817.13909375,"end":3818.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3819.8053437500002,"end":3820.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3821.0709687500002,"end":3823.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3824.73284375,"end":3825.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3827.0615937500006,"end":3827.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3829.2384687500007,"end":3834.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3834.5709687500002,"end":3836.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3837.0515937500004,"end":3840.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3840.9834687500006,"end":3850.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3850.5684687500006,"end":3852.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3852.6778437500006,"end":3854.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3854.9053437500006,"end":3876.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3878.8172187500004,"end":3880.2853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3880.6903437500005,"end":3887.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3887.77784375,"end":3912.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3913.4109687500004,"end":3918.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3919.0809687500005,"end":3921.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3921.81471875,"end":3923.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3923.5528437500006,"end":3924.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3924.83534375,"end":3925.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3926.6240937500006,"end":3939.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3939.78659375,"end":3939.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3939.90471875,"end":3955.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3956.05409375,"end":4022.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4022.42346875,"end":4025.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4025.59596875,"end":4027.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4027.58721875,"end":4037.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4039.8047187500006,"end":4044.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4045.4578437500004,"end":4046.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4047.24659375,"end":4047.6515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4048.09034375,"end":4051.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4052.17409375,"end":4056.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4056.7472187500007,"end":4058.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4059.4472187500005,"end":4062.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4062.7715937500006,"end":4070.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4070.63534375,"end":4073.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4074.3815937500003,"end":4075.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4075.68096875,"end":4076.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4077.3347187500003,"end":4078.6847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4079.2922187500008,"end":4082.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4083.4940937500005,"end":4083.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4084.37159375,"end":4086.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4086.6328437500006,"end":4089.4172187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4089.7040937500005,"end":4096.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4097.16284375,"end":4100.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4100.436593750001,"end":4114.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4114.4090937500005,"end":4141.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4141.47659375,"end":4145.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4145.27346875,"end":4145.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4145.69534375,"end":4145.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4145.77971875,"end":4145.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4145.796593749999,"end":4146.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4146.91034375,"end":4146.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4147.18034375,"end":4149.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4153.28909375,"end":4156.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4163.987843749999,"end":4166.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4167.05909375,"end":4167.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4172.03721875,"end":4193.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4176.86346875,"end":4177.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4194.24471875,"end":4204.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4204.639718750001,"end":4224.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4224.552218750001,"end":4243.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4244.059718750001,"end":4272.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4272.274718750001,"end":4280.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4273.94534375,"end":4275.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4275.86909375,"end":4278.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4280.07096875,"end":4297.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4297.13159375,"end":4300.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4300.776593750001,"end":4303.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4302.599093750001,"end":4304.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4305.24846875,"end":4306.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4307.340968750001,"end":4332.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4333.37909375,"end":4334.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4334.3915937500005,"end":4337.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4337.63159375,"end":4352.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4353.44346875,"end":4359.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4359.923468749999,"end":4359.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4359.95721875,"end":4360.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4360.0584687499995,"end":4360.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4360.66596875,"end":4362.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4362.2353437500005,"end":4369.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4369.8290937500005,"end":4381.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4382.16471875,"end":4385.472218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4384.442843750001,"end":4386.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4386.889718750001,"end":4387.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4387.109093749999,"end":4401.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4387.17659375,"end":4387.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4401.790343750001,"end":4408.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4408.354718750001,"end":4409.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4409.097218749999,"end":4411.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4409.36721875,"end":4409.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4411.341593749999,"end":4413.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4414.9697187500005,"end":4420.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4420.52159375,"end":4431.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4431.99659375,"end":4433.144093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4433.81909375,"end":4436.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4436.78909375,"end":4437.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4437.66659375,"end":4442.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4443.269093749999,"end":4446.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4446.9647187499995,"end":4470.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4470.70784375,"end":4473.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4474.200968749999,"end":4491.784718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4492.27409375,"end":4493.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4494.315968749999,"end":4494.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4494.923468749999,"end":4516.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4516.65846875,"end":4548.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4548.58596875,"end":4553.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4553.294093750001,"end":4553.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4553.49659375,"end":4553.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4553.54721875,"end":4553.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4553.91846875,"end":4555.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4553.952218750001,"end":4558.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4559.35221875,"end":4562.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4562.1365937499995,"end":4576.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4576.581593749999,"end":4578.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4579.18034375,"end":4580.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4580.327843749999,"end":4582.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4583.432843750001,"end":4584.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4584.7997187500005,"end":4586.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4586.97659375,"end":4597.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4598.08034375,"end":4602.315968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4603.5478437500005,"end":4607.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4607.46284375,"end":4620.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4620.321593750001,"end":4621.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4621.80659375,"end":4622.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4622.78534375,"end":4624.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4624.725968750001,"end":4626.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4626.970343749999,"end":4647.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4643.794718749999,"end":4644.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4644.030968749999,"end":4646.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4646.64659375,"end":4646.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4647.270968750001,"end":4651.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4650.66284375,"end":4663.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4664.07846875,"end":4664.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4664.97284375,"end":4667.284718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4667.622218750001,"end":4672.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4673.376593749999,"end":4674.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4674.878468749999,"end":4677.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4677.39284375,"end":4684.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4684.581593749999,"end":4689.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4690.217843750001,"end":4690.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4690.97721875,"end":4692.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4693.74471875,"end":4700.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4701.49034375,"end":4702.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4703.009093750001,"end":4705.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4705.675343750001,"end":4720.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4710.974093750001,"end":4711.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4720.997843749999,"end":4722.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4722.786593750001,"end":4723.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4723.124093750001,"end":4725.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4726.026593750001,"end":4726.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4726.56659375,"end":4731.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4732.60784375,"end":4734.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4734.548468749999,"end":4738.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4739.239718750001,"end":4748.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4748.97659375,"end":4761.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4756.300343750001,"end":4756.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4756.31721875,"end":4756.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4756.350968750001,"end":4756.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4761.21096875,"end":4775.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4762.79721875,"end":4762.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4766.897843750001,"end":4766.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4766.982218749999,"end":4767.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4767.10034375,"end":4767.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4767.70784375,"end":4767.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4767.72471875,"end":4767.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4767.792218750001,"end":4768.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4768.23096875,"end":4768.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4768.247843749999,"end":4768.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4775.470343749999,"end":4783.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4779.77346875,"end":4780.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4781.03909375,"end":4781.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4782.034718750001,"end":4802.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4784.009093750001,"end":4784.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4803.39846875,"end":4806.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4806.62159375,"end":4814.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4815.278468750001,"end":4821.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4819.9697187500005,"end":4820.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4820.982218749999,"end":4821.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4821.083468750001,"end":4822.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4822.163468750001,"end":4823.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4823.96909375,"end":4824.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4824.47534375,"end":4824.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4825.13346875,"end":4826.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4826.02784375,"end":4826.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4826.044718749999,"end":4826.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4826.97284375,"end":4826.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4826.989718750001,"end":4834.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4831.22534375,"end":4831.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4835.528468750001,"end":4835.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4835.54534375,"end":4839.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4839.42659375,"end":4843.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4842.95346875,"end":4844.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4845.872843749999,"end":4853.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4856.149718750001,"end":4858.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4858.90034375,"end":4863.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4864.33409375,"end":4866.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4866.6122187500005,"end":4867.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4868.147843750001,"end":4883.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4883.571593750001,"end":4903.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4904.22659375,"end":4909.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4909.778468750001,"end":4913.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4914.11534375,"end":4917.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4916.292218750001,"end":4917.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4917.557843750001,"end":4917.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4917.608468750001,"end":4918.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4918.6884687500005,"end":4924.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4922.55284375,"end":4923.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4924.1728437500005,"end":4924.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4925.286593750001,"end":4949.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4925.48909375,"end":4925.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4950.1434687500005,"end":4950.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4951.1728437500005,"end":4956.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4956.80909375,"end":4959.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4959.374093750001,"end":4960.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4961.02784375,"end":4968.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4968.7059687500005,"end":4971.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4971.6590937500005,"end":4973.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4973.515343749999,"end":4977.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4977.464093750001,"end":4980.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4979.7928437499995,"end":4980.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4980.788468750001,"end":4982.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4983.01596875,"end":4983.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4984.0115937499995,"end":4984.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4985.07471875,"end":4995.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4995.604718750001,"end":4998.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4998.507218750001,"end":4999.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4999.485968749999,"end":5018.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5018.470343749999,"end":5018.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5019.8709687499995,"end":5020.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5020.394093750001,"end":5022.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5022.25034375,"end":5023.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5026.46909375,"end":5029.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5038.686593750001,"end":5042.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5042.989718750001,"end":5043.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5044.42409375,"end":5044.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5050.161593750001,"end":5052.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5052.507218750001,"end":5053.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5054.17784375,"end":5055.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5055.359093749999,"end":5098.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5099.2509687500005,"end":5100.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5101.073468750001,"end":5127.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5127.85409375,"end":5153.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5153.63909375,"end":5202.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5202.30659375,"end":5211.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5211.554093750001,"end":5229.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5230.09971875,"end":5230.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5231.280968749999,"end":5250.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5250.40034375,"end":5269.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5257.47096875,"end":5257.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5257.55534375,"end":5257.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5257.89284375,"end":5258.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5258.02784375,"end":5258.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5258.2303437499995,"end":5258.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5259.040343750001,"end":5259.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5259.05721875,"end":5259.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5259.0740937499995,"end":5259.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5259.25971875,"end":5259.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5259.276593750001,"end":5259.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5269.14846875,"end":5289.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5291.2040937500005,"end":5342.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5342.97659375,"end":5343.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5343.71909375,"end":5343.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5343.98909375,"end":5344.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5344.09034375,"end":5369.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5369.31846875,"end":5397.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5396.30159375,"end":5401.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5401.870343750001,"end":5416.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5402.22471875,"end":5402.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5409.936593750001,"end":5414.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5416.264718750001,"end":5432.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5432.380343750001,"end":5454.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5454.09846875,"end":5481.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5458.722218750001,"end":5459.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5462.11409375,"end":5462.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5464.729718750001,"end":5466.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5474.2978437500005,"end":5474.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5474.97284375,"end":5475.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5480.102843750001,"end":5480.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5481.57096875,"end":5491.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5491.965968750001,"end":5568.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5569.84409375,"end":5589.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5589.53721875,"end":5591.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5591.950343750001,"end":5599.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5599.577843749999,"end":5622.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5622.139718750001,"end":5674.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5676.57846875,"end":5685.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5679.53159375,"end":5679.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5685.43784375,"end":5687.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5688.25596875,"end":5690.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5688.323468750001,"end":5688.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5689.909718750001,"end":5692.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5692.42409375,"end":5698.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5699.44409375,"end":5702.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5700.6590937500005,"end":5700.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5701.9247187500005,"end":5702.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5702.4647187499995,"end":5702.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5702.565968750001,"end":5702.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5702.717843750001,"end":5703.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5703.561593750001,"end":5705.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5704.55721875,"end":5704.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5706.00846875,"end":5711.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5708.91096875,"end":5709.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5711.999093750001,"end":5758.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5758.911593750001,"end":5762.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5763.2822187500005,"end":5821.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5771.63534375,"end":5771.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5821.399718750001,"end":5830.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5831.474093750001,"end":5832.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5833.482218749999,"end":5834.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5835.72659375,"end":5838.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5848.97346875,"end":5850.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5851.4540937500005,"end":5852.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5857.259093750001,"end":5858.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5858.35596875,"end":5876.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5863.485968750001,"end":5863.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5877.72846875,"end":5884.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5884.64721875,"end":5942.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5942.899718750001,"end":5944.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5945.0428437499995,"end":6016.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6016.913468750001,"end":6045.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6045.7528437500005,"end":6054.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6055.84409375,"end":6063.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6064.247843749999,"end":6067.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6067.99409375,"end":6092.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6092.614718750001,"end":6093.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6093.9647187499995,"end":6116.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6115.80096875,"end":6131.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6118.97346875,"end":6119.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6132.05159375,"end":6234.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6235.124093750001,"end":6261.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6261.21284375,"end":6295.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6263.03534375,"end":6263.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6263.96346875,"end":6264.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6265.41471875,"end":6268.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6273.86909375,"end":6274.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6279.420968750001,"end":6279.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6279.454718750001,"end":6279.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6279.77534375,"end":6279.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6295.41846875,"end":6311.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6311.9559687500005,"end":6322.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6322.31721875,"end":6331.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6331.9697187500005,"end":6351.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6351.94971875,"end":6352.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6352.13534375,"end":6370.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6371.8622187500005,"end":6372.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6372.43596875,"end":6379.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6379.74284375,"end":6381.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6381.970343750001,"end":6388.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6382.84784375,"end":6383.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6388.0115937499995,"end":6388.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6388.298468750001,"end":6444.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6444.137843750001,"end":6476.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6476.6053437499995,"end":6500.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6501.71534375,"end":6517.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6518.3709687499995,"end":6538.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6538.13159375,"end":6538.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6538.94159375,"end":6545.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6546.33284375,"end":6577.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6578.108468750001,"end":6586.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6586.90034375,"end":6587.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6587.08596875,"end":6588.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6587.153468750001,"end":6587.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6593.07659375,"end":6594.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6594.94971875,"end":6595.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6597.599093750001,"end":6600.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6615.182843750001,"end":6616.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6617.25846875,"end":6618.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6624.71721875,"end":6625.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6626.50596875,"end":6634.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6635.247218750001,"end":6637.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6638.2509687500005,"end":6640.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6641.35596875,"end":6641.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6642.16596875,"end":6648.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6642.317843750001,"end":6642.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6648.7978437500005,"end":6651.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6652.965968750001,"end":6670.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6670.499093750001,"end":6671.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6671.68034375,"end":6685.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6684.404093749999,"end":6686.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6686.26034375,"end":6690.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6691.55909375,"end":6699.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6699.89534375,"end":6700.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6701.02596875,"end":6701.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6702.66284375,"end":6704.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6704.95784375,"end":6710.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6711.032843750001,"end":6711.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6711.420968750001,"end":6742.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6742.403468750001,"end":6776.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6776.1365937499995,"end":6783.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6783.6122187500005,"end":6791.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6791.25659375,"end":6791.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6791.340968750001,"end":6820.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6821.26034375,"end":6822.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6822.81284375,"end":6826.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6827.26784375,"end":6850.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6829.309718750001,"end":6829.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6850.3865937499995,"end":6855.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6855.600968750001,"end":6867.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6868.392218750001,"end":6875.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6875.530343750001,"end":6875.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6875.86784375,"end":6886.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6886.397843750001,"end":6901.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6901.61909375,"end":6909.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6910.073468750001,"end":6920.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6920.55284375,"end":6923.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6920.569718750001,"end":6920.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6922.493468750001,"end":6922.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6923.59034375,"end":6927.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6926.610968750001,"end":6937.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6937.545968750001,"end":6941.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6941.83221875,"end":6971.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6971.194718750001,"end":6973.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6974.36721875,"end":6986.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6987.25971875,"end":6999.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6990.19596875,"end":6990.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6991.157843750001,"end":6991.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6999.84846875,"end":7013.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7012.79159375,"end":7035.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7015.74471875,"end":7016.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7029.37971875,"end":7029.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7029.39659375,"end":7029.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7029.61596875,"end":7029.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7035.134093750001,"end":7035.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7035.80909375,"end":7036.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7036.534718750001,"end":7036.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7036.585343750001,"end":7036.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7036.61909375,"end":7048.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7048.499093750001,"end":7057.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7057.392218750001,"end":7073.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7073.895968750001,"end":7088.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7087.9697187500005,"end":7166.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7166.472218750001,"end":7169.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7168.767218750001,"end":7177.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7170.977843750001,"end":7171.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7177.812218750001,"end":7205.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7205.419718749999,"end":7213.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7213.41846875,"end":7218.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7219.206593750001,"end":7243.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7244.333468750001,"end":7254.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7244.7215937500005,"end":7245.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7252.93971875,"end":7253.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7253.81721875,"end":7257.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7257.61409375,"end":7260.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7260.16221875,"end":7267.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7267.57034375,"end":7276.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7276.294718749999,"end":7288.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7289.710343750001,"end":7300.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7299.700343750001,"end":7303.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7302.19784375,"end":7309.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7309.79159375,"end":7316.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7317.58784375,"end":7331.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7331.54346875,"end":7344.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7345.684718750001,"end":7361.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7361.59784375,"end":7371.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7371.267218750001,"end":7390.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7391.280968750001,"end":7409.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7409.74221875,"end":7412.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7412.44221875,"end":7413.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7413.48846875,"end":7413.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7416.829718750001,"end":7418.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7418.63534375,"end":7419.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7420.778468750001,"end":7423.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7430.49846875,"end":7432.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7432.94534375,"end":7433.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7439.25659375,"end":7442.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7442.952218750001,"end":7446.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7447.23846875,"end":7449.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7449.465968750001,"end":7450.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7451.4403437500005,"end":7455.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7455.591593749999,"end":7459.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7459.50659375,"end":7461.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7462.1728437500005,"end":7462.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7462.915343750001,"end":7465.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7465.83471875,"end":7475.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7476.29721875,"end":7477.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7477.545968750001,"end":7479.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7480.448468750001,"end":7480.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7481.849093750001,"end":7483.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7484.5322187500005,"end":7487.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7487.890343750001,"end":7490.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7490.6747187500005,"end":7579.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7580.31471875,"end":7596.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7597.341593749999,"end":7618.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7619.245343750001,"end":7623.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7624.18971875,"end":7661.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7638.7528437500005,"end":7639.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7661.16284375,"end":7681.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7681.75034375,"end":7709.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7711.78784375,"end":7713.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7713.795968750001,"end":7716.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7716.647843750001,"end":7719.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7720.00596875,"end":7720.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7720.05659375,"end":7722.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7722.081593750001,"end":7771.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7772.30159375,"end":7772.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7772.63909375,"end":7772.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7773.044093750001,"end":7818.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7812.700343750001,"end":7830.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7830.75659375,"end":7831.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7832.12346875,"end":7847.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7845.842843750001,"end":7853.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7853.858468750001,"end":7861.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7861.31721875,"end":7885.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7886.055968750001,"end":7916.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7917.224093750001,"end":7922.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7917.34221875,"end":7917.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7917.52784375,"end":7917.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7922.40471875,"end":7980.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7981.112843750001,"end":7982.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7983.25596875,"end":7983.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7984.70721875,"end":7985.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7985.55096875,"end":7986.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7986.58034375,"end":7993.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7993.38096875,"end":7993.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7994.02221875,"end":8029.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8029.45971875,"end":8034.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8034.2353437500005,"end":8040.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8040.647843750001,"end":8044.950968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8045.339093750001,"end":8046.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8047.38096875,"end":8056.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8057.522843750001,"end":8059.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8059.210343750001,"end":8071.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8072.11971875,"end":8091.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8091.62721875,"end":8093.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8093.17971875,"end":8153.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8153.052218750001,"end":8163.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8163.39659375,"end":8164.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8164.392218750001,"end":8165.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8165.64096875,"end":8166.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8166.53534375,"end":8174.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8174.753468750001,"end":8193.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8193.97409375,"end":8194.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8196.657218750002,"end":8197.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8198.597843750002,"end":8199.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8201.129093750002,"end":8208.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8231.200343750003,"end":8233.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8233.832843750002,"end":8234.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8239.70534375,"end":8240.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8241.07221875,"end":8247.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8248.024718749999,"end":8251.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8251.24784375,"end":8255.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8256.20909375,"end":8259.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8259.36471875,"end":8260.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8260.562843750002,"end":8283.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8283.934718750003,"end":8292.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8292.794093750003,"end":8298.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8299.206593750001,"end":8300.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8300.92784375,"end":8304.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8304.218468750001,"end":8307.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8308.774718750003,"end":8313.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8314.191593750002,"end":8318.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8319.321593750003,"end":8326.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8326.45971875,"end":8337.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8337.90096875,"end":8341.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8342.085968750001,"end":8342.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8342.102843750003,"end":8343.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8343.874718750001,"end":8355.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8355.56909375,"end":8357.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8358.218468750001,"end":8360.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8361.27284375,"end":8365.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8365.79534375,"end":8379.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8379.93659375,"end":8380.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8380.004093750002,"end":8380.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8380.93221875,"end":8385.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8383.176593750002,"end":8383.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8385.94409375,"end":8389.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8389.977218750002,"end":8402.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8402.97096875,"end":8403.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8403.17346875,"end":8407.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8408.72534375,"end":8411.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8411.813468750002,"end":8413.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8414.243468750003,"end":8415.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8416.69034375,"end":8419.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8419.035968750002,"end":8419.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8419.339718750001,"end":8419.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8420.031593750002,"end":8422.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8422.54596875,"end":8423.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8423.355968750002,"end":8425.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8425.44846875,"end":8442.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8443.504718750002,"end":8445.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8446.20471875,"end":8449.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8450.00159375,"end":8450.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8450.035343750002,"end":8450.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8450.625968750002,"end":8451.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8451.06471875,"end":8451.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8451.452843750001,"end":8452.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8453.07284375,"end":8453.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8453.089718750001,"end":8453.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8453.84909375,"end":8453.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8453.86596875,"end":8453.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8453.882843750001,"end":8454.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8454.18659375,"end":8455.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8456.22846875,"end":8467.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8462.92784375,"end":8463.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8468.294093750003,"end":8473.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8471.399093750002,"end":8475.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8477.204093750002,"end":8483.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8481.96284375,"end":8482.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8484.207218750002,"end":8487.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8484.24096875,"end":8485.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8488.88159375,"end":8491.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8491.497218750003,"end":8496.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8492.374718750001,"end":8492.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8496.84659375,"end":8504.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8504.946593750003,"end":8506.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8506.92096875,"end":8564.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8529.617843750002,"end":8529.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8565.207218750002,"end":8571.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8571.56909375,"end":8574.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8575.14659375,"end":8578.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8579.348468750002,"end":8583.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8583.887843750003,"end":8591.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8591.430968750003,"end":8594.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8594.890343750001,"end":8596.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8597.10096875,"end":8600.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8601.15096875,"end":8606.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8607.394718750002,"end":8609.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8610.11159375,"end":8615.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8614.22909375,"end":8614.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8615.258468750002,"end":8624.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8624.60721875,"end":8627.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8624.759093750003,"end":8625.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8627.695343750001,"end":8633.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8632.04909375,"end":8655.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8655.84284375,"end":8662.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8662.812218750001,"end":8663.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8663.993468750003,"end":8665.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8666.237843750001,"end":8672.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8673.105968750002,"end":8722.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8723.74784375,"end":8732.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8733.754718750002,"end":8734.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8735.18909375,"end":8741.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8742.25971875,"end":8768.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8768.56784375,"end":8785.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8785.71284375,"end":8794.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8793.930968750003,"end":8819.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8796.090968750003,"end":8796.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8820.222218750001,"end":8820.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8824.508468750002,"end":8825.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8826.17909375,"end":8827.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8828.89596875,"end":8831.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8840.337218750003,"end":8842.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8843.290343750003,"end":8844.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8848.977218750002,"end":8849.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8849.770343750002,"end":8898.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8899.56846875,"end":8947.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8948.35409375,"end":8961.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8962.343468750001,"end":8983.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8979.184718750003,"end":8979.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8979.31971875,"end":8979.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8979.47159375,"end":8979.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8980.703468750002,"end":9023.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9024.578468750002,"end":9074.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9074.91659375,"end":9081.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9081.34596875,"end":9120.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9120.141593750002,"end":9123.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9123.989093750002,"end":9129.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9129.574718750002,"end":9157.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9157.840343750002,"end":9168.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9168.859718750002,"end":9175.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9175.879718750002,"end":9197.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9194.172218750002,"end":9194.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9197.226593750001,"end":9214.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9213.359093750001,"end":9233.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9233.91284375,"end":9235.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9235.11096875,"end":9237.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9237.743468750003,"end":9239.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9239.684093750002,"end":9264.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9264.827843750001,"end":9290.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9290.511593750001,"end":9292.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9293.34659375,"end":9296.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9297.81846875,"end":9302.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9302.89784375,"end":9329.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9324.61596875,"end":9351.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9334.437218750001,"end":9334.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9334.977218750002,"end":9335.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9352.274093750002,"end":9359.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9359.53034375,"end":9413.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9413.867843750002,"end":9426.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9413.90159375,"end":9414.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9424.195343750001,"end":9424.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9426.034718750001,"end":9446.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9434.08409375,"end":9435.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9443.04471875,"end":9492.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9492.62346875,"end":9494.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9492.77534375,"end":9495.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9494.969093750002,"end":9553.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9496.74096875,"end":9497.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9554.200343750003,"end":9563.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9564.49409375,"end":9566.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9568.527218750001,"end":9573.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9570.636593750001,"end":9571.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9573.04971875,"end":9573.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9574.31534375,"end":9575.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9577.454093750002,"end":9602.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9603.94784375,"end":9624.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9625.024718750003,"end":9651.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9651.855968750002,"end":9655.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9655.922843750002,"end":9656.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9657.019718750002,"end":9665.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9664.461593750002,"end":9665.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9666.300968750002,"end":9667.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9666.351593750001,"end":9671.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9672.055343750002,"end":9674.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9674.67096875,"end":9698.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9674.87346875,"end":9675.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9687.20909375,"end":9688.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9699.07221875,"end":9709.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9700.70909375,"end":9703.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9709.14659375,"end":9714.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9709.872218750003,"end":9710.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9711.20534375,"end":9711.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9715.879718750002,"end":9719.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9720.11534375,"end":9766.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9767.702843750001,"end":9829.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9829.684718750003,"end":9831.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9831.69284375,"end":9836.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9837.109718750002,"end":9837.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9838.29096875,"end":9839.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9839.387843750003,"end":9843.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9844.61909375,"end":9845.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9847.62284375,"end":9858.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9865.476593750001,"end":9866.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9868.21034375,"end":9871.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9872.63159375,"end":9873.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9879.16221875,"end":9879.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9880.191593750002,"end":9880.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9880.96784375,"end":9911.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9911.629718750002,"end":9913.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9913.671593750001,"end":9920.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9922.429718750001,"end":9923.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9925.04534375,"end":9925.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9925.602218750002,"end":9925.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9925.652843750002,"end":10001.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9959.774093750002,"end":9959.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10002.78846875,"end":10003.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10003.446593750003,"end":10005.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10006.551593750002,"end":10007.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10008.070343750001,"end":10065.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10066.96409375,"end":10067.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10068.145343750002,"end":10071.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10069.07346875,"end":10069.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10071.452843750001,"end":10071.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10071.469718750002,"end":10071.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10071.53721875,"end":10071.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10071.840968750003,"end":10075.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10075.992218750001,"end":10081.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10081.155968750001,"end":10118.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10118.43284375,"end":10120.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10120.356593750003,"end":10122.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10121.84159375,"end":10122.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10122.68534375,"end":10127.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10127.258468750002,"end":10132.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10132.86096875,"end":10146.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10147.019093750001,"end":10149.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10149.246593750002,"end":10149.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10149.28034375,"end":10152.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10153.937843750002,"end":10156.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10156.80659375,"end":10173.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10173.192218750002,"end":10227.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10227.32721875,"end":10227.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10228.06971875,"end":10229.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10229.234093750001,"end":10239.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10240.43909375,"end":10242.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10243.18971875,"end":10244.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10245.315968750001,"end":10249.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10248.35346875,"end":10261.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10250.395343750002,"end":10250.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10258.57971875,"end":10258.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10261.887218750002,"end":10263.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10262.562218750001,"end":10291.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10291.60409375,"end":10292.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10292.49846875,"end":10293.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10293.831593750001,"end":10294.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10294.70909375,"end":10296.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10297.08846875,"end":10297.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10297.72971875,"end":10299.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10299.19784375,"end":10305.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10300.81784375,"end":10301.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10305.35721875,"end":10307.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10307.43284375,"end":10319.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10320.19034375,"end":10322.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10322.789093750001,"end":10327.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10327.46346875,"end":10331.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10331.20971875,"end":10333.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10333.63971875,"end":10335.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10336.035968750002,"end":10337.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10337.453468750002,"end":10339.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10339.86659375,"end":10341.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10341.11534375,"end":10366.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10367.79471875,"end":10373.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10373.75159375,"end":10374.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10374.46034375,"end":10374.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10374.797843750002,"end":10379.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10379.72534375,"end":10381.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10381.497218750003,"end":10383.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10383.387218750002,"end":10385.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10387.184093750002,"end":10387.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10387.26846875,"end":10387.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10388.230343750001,"end":10395.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10395.58784375,"end":10414.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10414.909718750001,"end":10420.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10421.102843750003,"end":10424.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10424.74784375,"end":10425.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10425.65909375,"end":10427.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10427.532218750002,"end":10429.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10429.742843750002,"end":10444.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10444.660343750002,"end":10447.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10446.16221875,"end":10449.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10449.95909375,"end":10451.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10451.781593750002,"end":10463.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10463.56034375,"end":10467.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10468.25159375,"end":10484.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10485.531593750002,"end":10530.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10531.313468750002,"end":10535.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10535.987843750001,"end":10536.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10537.675343750001,"end":10549.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10549.875968750002,"end":10550.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10551.37784375,"end":10552.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10551.64784375,"end":10576.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10578.040343750003,"end":10586.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10584.18284375,"end":10585.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10585.95471875,"end":10587.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10587.50721875,"end":10587.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10588.097843750002,"end":10588.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10590.51096875,"end":10590.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10591.33784375,"end":10615.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10593.04221875,"end":10594.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10616.262218750002,"end":10620.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10620.66659375,"end":10628.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10628.867843750002,"end":10634.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10632.42846875,"end":10632.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10632.47909375,"end":10632.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10634.33534375,"end":10640.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10639.85346875,"end":10641.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10641.59159375,"end":10642.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10642.215968750003,"end":10643.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10643.86971875,"end":10645.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10645.050968750002,"end":10648.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10648.03784375,"end":10650.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10650.231593750003,"end":10654.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10651.34534375,"end":10652.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10654.83846875,"end":10661.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10659.884093750003,"end":10661.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10661.75721875,"end":10662.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10663.32659375,"end":10669.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10670.17784375,"end":10672.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10673.384093750003,"end":10674.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10674.953468750002,"end":10677.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10677.04596875,"end":10677.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10677.99096875,"end":10711.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10686.85034375,"end":10686.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10699.23659375,"end":10699.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10705.19346875,"end":10705.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10706.594093750002,"end":10706.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10706.62784375,"end":10707.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10711.16721875,"end":10714.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10714.289093750001,"end":10720.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10715.504093750002,"end":10715.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10719.874718750001,"end":10722.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10722.000968750002,"end":10728.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10728.51471875,"end":10731.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10732.007843750001,"end":10737.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10734.30284375,"end":10735.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10737.25596875,"end":10753.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10738.184093750002,"end":10739.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10739.922218750002,"end":10742.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10742.132843750001,"end":10742.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10745.879093750002,"end":10747.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10752.375968750002,"end":10769.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10769.21721875,"end":10772.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10773.70596875,"end":10774.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10774.90409375,"end":10776.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10776.321593750003,"end":10776.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10776.81096875,"end":10785.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10785.45096875,"end":10785.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10785.46784375,"end":10785.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10785.51846875,"end":10785.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10785.754718750002,"end":10796.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10791.559718750003,"end":10792.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10796.554718750001,"end":10797.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10797.364718750003,"end":10805.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10798.461593750002,"end":10800.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10806.308468750001,"end":10808.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10808.046593750001,"end":10843.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10809.210968750001,"end":10811.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10843.66971875,"end":10856.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10847.21346875,"end":10848.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10856.562218750001,"end":10856.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10856.71409375,"end":10857.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10856.781593750002,"end":10881.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10882.06034375,"end":10883.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10884.304718750001,"end":10894.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10901.247218750003,"end":10902.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10903.339718750001,"end":10905.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10905.550343750001,"end":10906.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10907.06909375,"end":10910.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10912.18221875,"end":10913.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10913.312843750002,"end":10913.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10913.785343750002,"end":10914.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10915.202843750001,"end":10917.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10919.219093750002,"end":10919.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10920.602843750003,"end":10921.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10922.914718750002,"end":10923.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10923.910343750002,"end":10925.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10927.47096875,"end":10928.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10929.37784375,"end":10930.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10929.69846875,"end":10931.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10931.89221875,"end":10932.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10934.457218750002,"end":10936.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10935.68909375,"end":10936.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10936.44846875,"end":10936.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10936.65096875,"end":10936.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10936.97159375,"end":10937.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10937.039093750001,"end":10937.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10937.055968750003,"end":10937.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10937.190968750001,"end":10937.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10937.477843750003,"end":10937.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10937.49471875,"end":10938.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10937.66346875,"end":10937.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10937.69721875,"end":10937.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10938.372218750003,"end":10938.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10938.50721875,"end":10940.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10938.524093750002,"end":10938.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10938.625343750002,"end":10940.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10940.39721875,"end":10940.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10940.515343750001,"end":10940.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10940.532218750002,"end":10940.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10940.66721875,"end":10941.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10941.426593750002,"end":10943.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10944.109718750002,"end":10945.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10947.282218750002,"end":10949.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10949.98221875,"end":10951.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10952.46284375,"end":10954.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10955.500343750002,"end":10956.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10956.242843750002,"end":10957.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10958.80784375,"end":10961.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10962.95909375,"end":10964.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10964.460968750001,"end":10964.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10965.051593750002,"end":10972.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10972.45971875,"end":11011.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10980.390968750002,"end":10982.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11001.41721875,"end":11005.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11007.32346875,"end":11008.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11009.95596875,"end":11010.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11011.15409375,"end":11012.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11012.132843750001,"end":11012.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11012.554718750001,"end":11015.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11015.28846875,"end":11016.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11015.895968750003,"end":11015.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11016.85784375,"end":11020.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11019.18659375,"end":11029.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11026.949093750001,"end":11029.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11029.800968750002,"end":11029.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11029.83471875,"end":11029.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11029.952843750001,"end":11030.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11030.594093750002,"end":11030.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11030.72909375,"end":11030.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11030.965343750002,"end":11030.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11030.99909375,"end":11032.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11033.766593750002,"end":11034.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11035.757843750001,"end":11036.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11036.972843750002,"end":11042.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11043.030968750001,"end":11043.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11043.402218750001,"end":11043.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11044.212218750003,"end":11044.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11044.785968750002,"end":11047.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11047.519718750002,"end":11050.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11051.87346875,"end":11053.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11053.25721875,"end":11059.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11058.285968750002,"end":11060.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11061.593468750001,"end":11064.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11063.567843750003,"end":11064.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11064.968468750001,"end":11068.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11069.237843750001,"end":11073.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11073.70971875,"end":11075.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11076.274718750003,"end":11078.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11078.687843750002,"end":11080.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11081.13471875,"end":11081.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11081.269718750002,"end":11081.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11081.708468750003,"end":11085.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11082.214718750001,"end":11083.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11084.492843750002,"end":11085.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11086.062218750001,"end":11086.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11086.16346875,"end":11109.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11088.610343750002,"end":11090.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11107.172843750002,"end":11107.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11108.708468750003,"end":11113.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11114.749718750001,"end":11119.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11119.47471875,"end":11121.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11123.01846875,"end":11125.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11125.718468750001,"end":11127.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11128.55346875,"end":11132.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11132.29971875,"end":11137.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11138.172218750002,"end":11139.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11138.914718750002,"end":11139.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11139.67409375,"end":11140.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11140.922843750002,"end":11142.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11142.30659375,"end":11144.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11144.753468750001,"end":11158.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11157.426593750002,"end":11158.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11159.485343750002,"end":11160.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11160.261593750001,"end":11160.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11160.46409375,"end":11162.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11160.531593750002,"end":11162.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11163.484718750002,"end":11165.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11164.109093750001,"end":11165.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11165.864093750002,"end":11169.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11166.87659375,"end":11167.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11169.79596875,"end":11170.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11171.36534375,"end":11173.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11173.17096875,"end":11178.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11178.18284375,"end":11178.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11178.21659375,"end":11179.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11180.359718750002,"end":11185.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11185.253468750001,"end":11188.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11189.168468750002,"end":11191.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11191.56471875,"end":11192.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11192.03721875,"end":11192.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11192.762843750003,"end":11194.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11194.78784375,"end":11194.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11194.821593750003,"end":11195.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11195.36159375,"end":11197.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11198.449718750002,"end":11211.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11211.03846875,"end":11212.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11213.23221875,"end":11214.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11215.39221875,"end":11217.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11217.687218750001,"end":11221.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11221.872218750003,"end":11226.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11226.95159375,"end":11228.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11227.00221875,"end":11239.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11240.18159375,"end":11245.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11245.581593750001,"end":11248.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11249.817218750002,"end":11250.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11250.40784375,"end":11251.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11251.352843750003,"end":11257.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11257.208468750003,"end":11257.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11257.242218750001,"end":11259.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11260.785968750002,"end":11263.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11263.840343750002,"end":11264.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11265.426593750002,"end":11267.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11267.755343750003,"end":11269.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11270.40471875,"end":11271.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11271.56909375,"end":11272.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11273.121593750002,"end":11275.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11275.770968750003,"end":11276.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11276.648468750001,"end":11278.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11279.719718750002,"end":11281.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11282.31846875,"end":11283.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11284.140968750002,"end":11286.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11286.469718750002,"end":11289.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11289.456593750001,"end":11291.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11292.71346875,"end":11293.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11293.202843750001,"end":11299.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11299.24409375,"end":11300.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11300.77971875,"end":11302.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11302.922843750002,"end":11310.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11307.124718750001,"end":11312.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11311.90034375,"end":11312.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11312.86221875,"end":11316.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11316.945968750002,"end":11332.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11332.707218750002,"end":11332.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11333.68596875,"end":11337.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11337.80346875,"end":11344.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11337.820343750001,"end":11338.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11345.042843750001,"end":11349.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11349.12659375,"end":11349.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11349.76784375,"end":11351.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11351.860343750002,"end":11353.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11353.750343750002,"end":11359.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11359.53846875,"end":11361.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11361.495968750001,"end":11362.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11362.778468750003,"end":11367.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11368.684718750003,"end":11371.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11372.160968750002,"end":11372.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11373.39284375,"end":11373.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11374.01721875,"end":11374.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11375.77221875,"end":11384.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11377.13909375,"end":11378.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11379.737843750001,"end":11380.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11381.796593750001,"end":11381.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11384.344718750002,"end":11384.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11384.378468750001,"end":11385.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11385.00284375,"end":11385.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11385.05346875,"end":11387.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11385.137843750003,"end":11386.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11387.972843750002,"end":11390.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11391.027218750001,"end":11392.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11393.06909375,"end":11393.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11393.86221875,"end":11401.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11401.320968750002,"end":11405.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11405.370968750001,"end":11406.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11406.36659375,"end":11416.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11417.132843750001,"end":11418.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11418.75284375,"end":11419.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11419.86659375,"end":11421.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11421.402218750001,"end":11421.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11421.60471875,"end":11421.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11421.672218750002,"end":11421.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11421.790343750003,"end":11421.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11421.80721875,"end":11430.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11428.793468750002,"end":11429.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11429.805968750003,"end":11432.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11432.50596875,"end":11434.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11434.851593750001,"end":11439.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11439.40784375,"end":11441.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11441.989718750003,"end":11442.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11443.255343750003,"end":11444.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11444.723468750002,"end":11445.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11445.668468750002,"end":11453.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11453.582843750002,"end":11455.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11455.60784375,"end":11456.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11456.77221875,"end":11457.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11458.527218750001,"end":11460.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11460.957218750002,"end":11462.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11463.03284375,"end":11465.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11463.117218750001,"end":11464.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11465.05784375,"end":11465.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11465.074718750002,"end":11465.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11465.10846875,"end":11476.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11474.085968750001,"end":11476.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11477.44409375,"end":11479.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11479.35096875,"end":11479.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11479.418468750002,"end":11482.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11482.82721875,"end":11483.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11484.66659375,"end":11487.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11486.269718750002,"end":11486.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11488.21034375,"end":11495.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11496.023468750001,"end":11496.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11496.512843750003,"end":11496.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11496.968468750001,"end":11499.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11498.06534375,"end":11499.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11499.70221875,"end":11500.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11500.832843750002,"end":11501.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11501.929718750001,"end":11502.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11502.68909375,"end":11503.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11504.984093750001,"end":11506.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11506.87409375,"end":11507.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11507.565968750001,"end":11511.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11512.375343750002,"end":11515.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11516.492843750002,"end":11517.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11517.539093750001,"end":11525.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11526.297218750002,"end":11529.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11533.92471875,"end":11535.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11535.831593750001,"end":11537.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11548.52159375,"end":11549.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11550.546593750001,"end":11551.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11557.97159375,"end":11558.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11559.456593750001,"end":11580.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11580.398468750001,"end":11588.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11587.97534375,"end":11588.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11588.380343750003,"end":11590.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11590.962218750003,"end":11591.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11591.14784375,"end":11591.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11591.23221875,"end":11591.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11591.384093750003,"end":11594.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11591.468468750001,"end":11591.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11591.485343750002,"end":11591.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11591.50221875,"end":11591.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":11591.519093750001,"end":11591.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11591.97471875,"end":11592.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11592.09284375,"end":11592.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11592.109718750002,"end":11592.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11592.12659375,"end":11592.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11592.177218750003,"end":11592.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11592.278468750003,"end":11592.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11592.34596875,"end":11592.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11592.362843750001,"end":11592.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11592.379718750002,"end":11592.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11592.81846875,"end":11592.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11592.902843750002,"end":11593.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11593.34159375,"end":11593.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11594.809718750003,"end":11609.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11597.273468750001,"end":11597.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11597.391593750002,"end":11597.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11597.745968750001,"end":11597.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11597.83034375,"end":11597.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11611.06034375,"end":11616.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11617.253468750001,"end":11617.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11617.87784375,"end":11617.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11617.894718750002,"end":11618.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11618.02971875,"end":11618.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11618.67096875,"end":11618.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11618.755343750003,"end":11619.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11619.852218750002,"end":11622.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11623.429718750001,"end":11623.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11623.969718750002,"end":11635.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11636.49096875,"end":11641.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11640.304718750001,"end":11642.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11642.24534375,"end":11642.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11642.464718750001,"end":11679.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11679.87659375,"end":11691.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11691.317843750003,"end":11691.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11692.296593750001,"end":11709.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11711.652218750001,"end":11715.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11714.132843750001,"end":11726.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11726.72159375,"end":11750.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11749.60409375,"end":11769.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11769.60096875,"end":11778.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11776.469093750002,"end":11804.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11804.582843750002,"end":11812.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11813.03721875,"end":11827.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11823.43221875,"end":11823.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11828.140343750001,"end":11884.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11884.199093750001,"end":11893.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11893.328468750002,"end":11902.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11902.187843750002,"end":11909.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11908.144718750002,"end":11909.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11909.71409375,"end":11911.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11911.958468750003,"end":11911.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11911.992218750001,"end":11917.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11917.30784375,"end":11936.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11937.270968750003,"end":11941.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11941.92846875,"end":11948.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11949.117218750001,"end":11950.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11950.956593750001,"end":11957.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11958.094718750002,"end":11961.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11962.11096875,"end":11977.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11978.378468750001,"end":11994.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11995.422218750002,"end":11997.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11998.51034375,"end":12036.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12037.660343750002,"end":12053.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12054.062843750002,"end":12056.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12057.47159375,"end":12059.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12059.46284375,"end":12062.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12064.407218750002,"end":12064.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12064.761593750001,"end":12078.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12078.632843750001,"end":12089.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12084.589718750001,"end":12086.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12090.462218750003,"end":12093.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12090.85034375,"end":12091.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12094.191593750002,"end":12116.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12117.495968750001,"end":12117.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12118.20471875,"end":12119.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12119.89221875,"end":12120.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12120.48284375,"end":12120.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12120.719093750002,"end":12126.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12126.321593750003,"end":12126.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12126.33846875,"end":12127.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12127.18221875,"end":12131.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12127.55346875,"end":12128.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12132.362843750001,"end":12135.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12136.851593750001,"end":12139.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12139.93971875,"end":12144.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12144.95159375,"end":12151.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12152.29221875,"end":12152.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12152.79846875,"end":12160.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12161.910968750002,"end":12188.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12188.57346875,"end":12194.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12195.458468750003,"end":12201.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12201.837218750003,"end":12206.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12206.22471875,"end":12215.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12214.78034375,"end":12220.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12220.770968750003,"end":12227.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12227.875343750002,"end":12232.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12231.469718750002,"end":12231.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12232.80284375,"end":12234.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12234.70971875,"end":12237.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12236.86971875,"end":12254.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12255.719093750002,"end":12261.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12261.878468750001,"end":12270.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12270.704093750002,"end":12280.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12280.727843750003,"end":12287.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12287.64659375,"end":12305.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12306.563468750002,"end":12312.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12313.347218750001,"end":12313.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12314.258468750002,"end":12328.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12327.30284375,"end":12330.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12329.31096875,"end":12330.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12330.32346875,"end":12333.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12334.10346875,"end":12335.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12335.95971875,"end":12342.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12342.18659375,"end":12353.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12354.218468750001,"end":12358.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12359.31471875,"end":12367.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12368.34284375,"end":12377.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12368.86596875,"end":12370.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12377.269718750002,"end":12393.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12394.245968750001,"end":12396.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12397.01346875,"end":12398.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12398.86971875,"end":12399.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12398.987843750001,"end":12399.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12400.28721875,"end":12401.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12402.059093750002,"end":12417.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12416.89221875,"end":12421.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12420.23346875,"end":12445.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12422.22471875,"end":12423.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12439.875968750002,"end":12439.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12439.909718750001,"end":12443.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12444.75284375,"end":12448.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12449.680343750002,"end":12449.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12449.96721875,"end":12450.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12450.034718750001,"end":12451.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12450.59159375,"end":12450.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12450.70971875,"end":12450.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12450.96284375,"end":12451.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12460.581593750001,"end":12461.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12462.167843750001,"end":12464.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12464.817218750002,"end":12465.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12465.509093750003,"end":12465.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12465.72846875,"end":12466.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12466.032218750002,"end":12468.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12469.89659375,"end":12505.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12521.196593750003,"end":12529.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12530.32596875,"end":12530.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12534.93284375,"end":12535.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12536.45159375,"end":12538.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12538.864718750003,"end":12544.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12547.065968750001,"end":12572.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12572.496593750002,"end":12587.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12587.515343750001,"end":12589.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12589.87784375,"end":12592.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12592.527218750001,"end":12592.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12592.544093750003,"end":12593.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12595.109093750001,"end":12596.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12596.425343750001,"end":12603.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12596.50971875,"end":12596.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12604.677218750003,"end":12610.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12610.33034375,"end":12615.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12615.66284375,"end":12616.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12616.540343750003,"end":12619.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12620.489093750002,"end":12621.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12621.164093750001,"end":12621.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12622.24409375,"end":12622.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12622.36221875,"end":12624.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12624.31971875,"end":12631.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12631.62659375,"end":12632.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12632.824718750002,"end":12633.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12634.07346875,"end":12634.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12635.052218750003,"end":12642.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12640.75596875,"end":12641.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12642.645968750003,"end":12643.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12644.164718750002,"end":12644.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12644.637218750002,"end":12644.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12644.97471875,"end":12646.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12648.19784375,"end":12649.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12648.24846875,"end":12659.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12652.551593750002,"end":12653.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12657.79971875,"end":12659.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12659.655968750001,"end":12660.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12660.364718750003,"end":12661.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12660.550343750001,"end":12662.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12662.153468750003,"end":12662.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12662.71034375,"end":12662.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12662.74409375,"end":12669.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12664.144718750002,"end":12666.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12669.61221875,"end":12674.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12673.67909375,"end":12674.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12674.421593750001,"end":12675.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12675.704093750002,"end":12680.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12680.614718750003,"end":12692.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12684.917843750001,"end":12685.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12690.75659375,"end":12691.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12692.24159375,"end":12692.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12692.680343750002,"end":12701.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12701.860343750002,"end":12703.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12704.30721875,"end":12713.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12714.989093750002,"end":12715.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12715.74846875,"end":12726.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12726.970343750003,"end":12736.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12729.78846875,"end":12730.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12737.027843750002,"end":12737.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12738.42846875,"end":12738.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12739.137218750002,"end":12745.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12745.515968750002,"end":12747.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12746.849093750003,"end":12747.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12747.33846875,"end":12747.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12747.355343750001,"end":12747.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12748.01346875,"end":12748.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12748.97534375,"end":12751.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12751.118468750003,"end":12751.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12751.23659375,"end":12770.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12770.727218750002,"end":12772.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12772.00971875,"end":12773.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12772.02659375,"end":12772.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12772.347218750001,"end":12772.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12773.96721875,"end":12775.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12775.688468750002,"end":12777.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12778.422218750002,"end":12778.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12778.439093750003,"end":12778.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12778.962218750003,"end":12779.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12779.907218750002,"end":12779.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12779.92409375,"end":12779.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12779.97471875,"end":12781.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12781.03784375,"end":12781.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12781.797218750002,"end":12784.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12784.581593750001,"end":12784.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12784.817843750003,"end":12784.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12784.83471875,"end":12784.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12784.969718750002,"end":12785.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12785.03721875,"end":12796.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12785.864093750002,"end":12785.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12796.91721875,"end":12800.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12801.50721875,"end":12809.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12810.46784375,"end":12811.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12811.952843750001,"end":12817.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12817.673468750003,"end":12818.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12818.652218750001,"end":12822.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12822.28034375,"end":12823.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12824.59221875,"end":12825.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12825.75659375,"end":12828.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12828.473468750002,"end":12831.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12831.49409375,"end":12834.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12839.391593750002,"end":12842.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12842.969093750002,"end":12842.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12842.985968750003,"end":12843.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12843.00284375,"end":12843.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12843.10409375,"end":12843.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12844.859093750001,"end":12846.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12847.086593750002,"end":12847.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12850.309718750003,"end":12854.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12855.102218750002,"end":12856.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12856.840343750002,"end":12866.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12866.56034375,"end":12870.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12870.94784375,"end":12871.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12872.145968750003,"end":12872.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12873.69846875,"end":12875.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12876.28034375,"end":12881.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12881.74784375,"end":12883.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12883.941593750002,"end":12886.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12886.118468750003,"end":12890.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12892.868468750003,"end":12896.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12895.855343750001,"end":12901.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12901.305968750003,"end":12906.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12906.570968750002,"end":12909.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12909.33846875,"end":12913.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12913.82721875,"end":12923.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12924.171593750001,"end":12936.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12936.81096875,"end":12939.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12939.66284375,"end":12960.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12960.570968750002,"end":12960.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12960.65534375,"end":12960.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12960.689093750003,"end":12960.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12960.874718750001,"end":12961.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12961.583468750003,"end":12961.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12961.954718750003,"end":12962.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12962.005343750003,"end":12966.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12967.067843750003,"end":12968.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12969.14346875,"end":12970.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12979.724093750003,"end":12980.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13145.01471875,"end":13145.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13147.630343750003,"end":13148.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13152.203468750002,"end":13152.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13361.453468750002,"end":13367.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13370.042843750001,"end":13373.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13383.880343750003,"end":13385.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13386.985343750002,"end":13387.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13395.65909375,"end":13399.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13396.907843750003,"end":13399.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13399.40534375,"end":13399.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13399.50659375,"end":13404.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13404.923468750003,"end":13406.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13407.657218750002,"end":13409.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13409.648468750001,"end":13413.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13413.968468750001,"end":13416.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13416.415343750003,"end":13419.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13420.043468750002,"end":13421.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13422.675968750002,"end":13425.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13426.03409375,"end":13427.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13428.24471875,"end":13429.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13430.016593750002,"end":13430.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13432.04159375,"end":13434.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13434.89346875,"end":13437.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13439.95596875,"end":13444.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13444.934093750002,"end":13445.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13446.48659375,"end":13450.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13452.156593750002,"end":13453.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13454.738468750002,"end":13456.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13457.370968750001,"end":13458.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13459.56471875,"end":13461.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13463.15909375,"end":13464.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13464.67784375,"end":13465.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13466.669093750003,"end":13467.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13468.356593750003,"end":13470.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13472.01846875,"end":13473.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13474.22909375,"end":13476.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13476.895343750002,"end":13479.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13480.55721875,"end":13481.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13483.155968750001,"end":13483.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13484.640968750002,"end":13486.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13486.56471875,"end":13487.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13489.484093750001,"end":13490.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13491.00284375,"end":13491.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13492.69034375,"end":13494.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13494.25971875,"end":13495.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13495.94721875,"end":13496.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13497.347843750002,"end":13500.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13501.617218750001,"end":13505.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13505.565968750001,"end":13506.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13507.97909375,"end":13510.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13510.324718750002,"end":13511.657843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13512.78846875,"end":13515.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13517.277218750001,"end":13519.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13520.95596875,"end":13522.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13524.347843750002,"end":13529.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13530.86159375,"end":13532.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13532.903468750003,"end":13534.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13535.265968750002,"end":13536.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13537.67909375,"end":13541.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13541.965343750002,"end":13542.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13542.066593750002,"end":13547.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13548.597218750001,"end":13553.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13554.874718750001,"end":13555.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13556.76471875,"end":13559.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13560.595343750003,"end":13564.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13565.72534375,"end":13569.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13570.703468750002,"end":13571.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13572.762218750002,"end":13572.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13572.964718750001,"end":13573.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13573.20096875,"end":13573.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13573.21784375,"end":13573.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13573.285343750002,"end":13573.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13573.335968750001,"end":13573.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13573.403468750003,"end":13573.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13573.42034375,"end":13573.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13573.84221875,"end":13573.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13573.909718750001,"end":13574.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13575.10784375,"end":13583.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13580.845343750003,"end":13581.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13585.671593750001,"end":13595.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13595.03721875,"end":13606.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13606.461593750002,"end":13608.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13609.02659375,"end":13611.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13611.642218750003,"end":13614.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13614.629093750002,"end":13617.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13617.599093750003,"end":13619.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13619.97846875,"end":13620.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13620.974093750003,"end":13622.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13623.505343750003,"end":13623.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13623.977843750003,"end":13624.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13625.68221875,"end":13645.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13631.571593750003,"end":13636.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13641.747218750003,"end":13642.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13643.384093750003,"end":13648.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13648.98659375,"end":13651.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13649.813468750002,"end":13658.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13651.16346875,"end":13651.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13652.867843750002,"end":13653.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13658.234093750001,"end":13661.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13661.035343750002,"end":13662.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13662.452843750001,"end":13665.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13666.03034375,"end":13666.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13668.274718750003,"end":13669.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13671.19409375,"end":13672.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13674.14721875,"end":13677.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13677.876593750003,"end":13680.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13680.880343750003,"end":13682.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13682.669093750003,"end":13684.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13684.64346875,"end":13686.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13685.16659375,"end":13686.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13686.870968750001,"end":13687.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13687.10721875,"end":13687.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13687.410968750002,"end":13688.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13688.879093750002,"end":13691.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13690.43159375,"end":13694.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13696.13534375,"end":13697.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13697.789093750001,"end":13699.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13699.949093750001,"end":13701.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13702.176593750002,"end":13707.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13707.829718750003,"end":13709.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13710.64784375,"end":13712.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13713.22971875,"end":13714.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13715.136593750001,"end":13716.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13717.43159375,"end":13718.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13719.524093750002,"end":13720.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13721.22846875,"end":13722.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13723.28721875,"end":13725.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13727.320343750001,"end":13732.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13733.125343750002,"end":13736.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13736.331593750001,"end":13736.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13738.761593750001,"end":13739.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13742.237843750001,"end":13743.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13744.836593750002,"end":13746.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13747.114718750003,"end":13748.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13750.017218750003,"end":13752.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13753.08846875,"end":13763.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13762.89284375,"end":13765.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13766.01471875,"end":13772.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13772.612843750001,"end":13773.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13772.74784375,"end":13774.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13775.262218750002,"end":13775.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13776.86534375,"end":13779.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13779.93659375,"end":13782.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13783.66596875,"end":13785.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13787.024093750002,"end":13788.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13788.67784375,"end":13790.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13791.715343750002,"end":13797.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13797.300968750002,"end":13798.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13798.81971875,"end":13804.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13805.92409375,"end":13807.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13808.016593750002,"end":13809.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13810.328468750002,"end":13811.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13812.84284375,"end":13814.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13814.969093750002,"end":13815.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13815.69471875,"end":13815.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13815.74534375,"end":13816.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13816.605968750002,"end":13818.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13819.086593750002,"end":13820.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13822.782218750002,"end":13823.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13825.296593750001,"end":13828.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13840.36596875,"end":13841.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13842.492218750001,"end":13843.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13848.95534375,"end":13849.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13850.06909375,"end":13851.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13851.874718750001,"end":13889.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13889.03346875,"end":13892.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13892.796593750001,"end":13893.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13893.032843750003,"end":13893.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13893.15096875,"end":13893.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13893.20159375,"end":13893.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13893.285968750002,"end":13893.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13893.52221875,"end":13893.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13893.555968750003,"end":13893.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13893.57284375,"end":13896.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13896.930968750003,"end":13897.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13897.26846875,"end":13897.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13897.36971875,"end":13906.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13907.089718750001,"end":13921.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13921.484093750001,"end":13921.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13921.500968750002,"end":13929.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13927.10346875,"end":13927.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13929.195968750002,"end":13930.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13930.32659375,"end":13930.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13930.74846875,"end":13933.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13933.954718750003,"end":13935.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13936.23284375,"end":13943.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13944.214718750001,"end":13961.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13961.69721875,"end":13967.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13967.519093750001,"end":13967.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13967.687843750002,"end":13968.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13970.657843750003,"end":13979.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13979.90534375,"end":13979.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13979.95596875,"end":13979.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13979.972843750002,"end":13983.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13984.49534375,"end":13994.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13994.62034375,"end":14000.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":14001.40409375,"end":14005.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":14005.403468750003,"end":14005.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14005.454093750002,"end":14005.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":14005.69034375,"end":14005.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14006.027843750002,"end":14014.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14014.49909375,"end":14033.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14033.38221875,"end":14033.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14033.43284375,"end":14034.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14033.43284375,"end":14035.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14034.563468750002,"end":14052.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14050.122218750003,"end":14050.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14052.02909375,"end":14052.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14052.04596875,"end":14052.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14052.079718750003,"end":14052.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14052.282218750002,"end":14130.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14130.599093750003,"end":14131.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14131.544093750003,"end":14136.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14136.690968750001,"end":14150.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14150.798468750003,"end":14171.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14171.925968750002,"end":14172.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14172.17909375,"end":14180.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14180.27909375,"end":14180.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14180.312843750002,"end":14213.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14212.172843750002,"end":14212.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14213.62409375,"end":14262.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14223.124718750001,"end":14223.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14262.831593750001,"end":14262.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14262.949718750002,"end":14264.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14264.24909375,"end":14264.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14264.839718750001,"end":14264.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14264.940968750001,"end":14265.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14265.160343750002,"end":14265.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14265.177218750003,"end":14265.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14265.71721875,"end":14265.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14265.801593750002,"end":14266.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14266.898468750001,"end":14266.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14266.965968750003,"end":14266.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14267.590343750002,"end":14268.923468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14270.98221875,"end":14272.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14273.51346875,"end":14276.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14281.191593750002,"end":14284.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14284.515968750002,"end":14285.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14285.24159375,"end":14287.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14291.215343750002,"end":14291.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14292.109718750002,"end":14292.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14293.122218750003,"end":14307.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14308.394093750001,"end":14339.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14339.74784375,"end":14345.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14345.24909375,"end":14350.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14345.856593750003,"end":14348.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14351.003468750001,"end":14356.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14355.57659375,"end":14355.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14357.06159375,"end":14359.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14359.91346875,"end":14373.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14374.392218750003,"end":14374.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14374.78034375,"end":14376.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14376.77159375,"end":14381.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14381.85096875,"end":14382.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14382.20534375,"end":14384.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14384.48346875,"end":14392.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14385.52971875,"end":14385.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14393.29221875,"end":14394.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14393.477843750003,"end":14394.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14394.844718750002,"end":14396.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14395.65471875,"end":14397.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14397.96659375,"end":14400.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14397.98346875,"end":14398.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14400.902843750002,"end":14410.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14411.95596875,"end":14413.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14414.402843750002,"end":14415.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14416.394093750001,"end":14419.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14420.207843750002,"end":14422.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14423.66721875,"end":14462.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14425.08471875,"end":14426.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14462.715968750003,"end":14464.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14464.16721875,"end":14468.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14465.348468750002,"end":14469.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14469.63471875,"end":14474.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14473.769093750001,"end":14475.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14475.372218750003,"end":14477.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14477.160968750002,"end":14489.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14490.964718750001,"end":14492.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14493.074093750001,"end":14493.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14494.238468750002,"end":14494.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14495.58846875,"end":14496.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14497.22534375,"end":14500.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14500.65096875,"end":14501.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14501.579093750002,"end":14503.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14502.203468750002,"end":14506.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14503.671593750001,"end":14503.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14505.257843750001,"end":14505.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14505.98346875,"end":14518.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14518.454093750002,"end":14523.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14521.06971875,"end":14521.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14523.989093750002,"end":14526.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14526.317843750003,"end":14529.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14530.047218750002,"end":14530.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14530.064093750003,"end":14530.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14530.38471875,"end":14530.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14530.519718750002,"end":14532.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14533.523468750001,"end":14549.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14537.894093750001,"end":14537.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14537.92784375,"end":14538.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14549.284718750001,"end":14551.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14552.54159375,"end":14554.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14555.71409375,"end":14557.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14558.02596875,"end":14559.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14559.98346875,"end":14561.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14561.586593750002,"end":14563.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14563.645343750002,"end":14570.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14564.489093750002,"end":14565.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14565.974093750003,"end":14566.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14566.024718750003,"end":14566.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14570.665343750003,"end":14574.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14574.73221875,"end":14575.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14575.99784375,"end":14577.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14577.870968750001,"end":14583.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14583.625343750002,"end":14585.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14585.70096875,"end":14587.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14587.169093750003,"end":14588.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14588.18159375,"end":14589.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14590.527218750001,"end":14590.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14592.214718750001,"end":14592.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14592.99096875,"end":14595.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14593.547843750002,"end":14595.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14596.804718750001,"end":14598.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14599.251593750003,"end":14602.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14603.36909375,"end":14605.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14605.42784375,"end":14608.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14609.460968750001,"end":14613.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14613.91596875,"end":14615.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14615.92409375,"end":14616.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14617.324718750002,"end":14619.923468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14620.227218750002,"end":14623.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14623.922843750002,"end":14624.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14624.85096875,"end":14628.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14628.192218750002,"end":14628.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14629.339718750001,"end":14637.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14638.064093750003,"end":14653.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14646.062843750002,"end":14646.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14653.386593750001,"end":14666.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14663.44409375,"end":14666.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14666.71784375,"end":14681.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14676.083468750003,"end":14676.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14681.247218750003,"end":14690.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14681.770343750002,"end":14683.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14684.554718750001,"end":14685.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14690.24159375,"end":14692.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14693.02596875,"end":14695.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14696.29971875,"end":14701.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14699.92784375,"end":14700.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14701.109093750001,"end":14705.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14702.121593750002,"end":14704.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14705.294093750003,"end":14718.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14719.08096875,"end":14720.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14720.71784375,"end":14722.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14721.91596875,"end":14722.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14722.574093750001,"end":14724.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14724.29534375,"end":14725.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14724.700343750003,"end":14742.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14729.610968750003,"end":14729.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14729.62784375,"end":14729.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14729.94846875,"end":14729.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14729.965343750002,"end":14729.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14742.48659375,"end":14810.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14810.239718750003,"end":14810.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14810.273468750001,"end":14810.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14810.35784375,"end":14832.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14833.054718750001,"end":14833.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14833.527218750001,"end":14837.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14837.25659375,"end":14838.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14837.661593750003,"end":14858.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14841.37409375,"end":14841.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14858.367218750001,"end":14866.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14864.374718750001,"end":14876.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14867.63159375,"end":14868.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14869.52159375,"end":14869.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14872.407218750002,"end":14872.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14872.457843750002,"end":14872.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14876.96346875,"end":14880.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14880.76034375,"end":14884.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14884.08471875,"end":14892.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14888.117843750002,"end":14888.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14888.45534375,"end":14888.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14892.79221875,"end":14894.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14893.93971875,"end":14895.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14894.42909375,"end":14896.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14897.027843750002,"end":14907.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14908.519718750002,"end":14924.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14911.371593750002,"end":14913.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14924.939093750003,"end":14926.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14925.512843750003,"end":14934.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14926.677218750003,"end":14927.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14930.052218750003,"end":14931.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14931.722843750002,"end":14931.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14932.667843750001,"end":14932.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14932.684718750003,"end":14933.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14935.23284375,"end":14942.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14937.747218750003,"end":14938.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14941.122218750003,"end":14947.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14946.387218750002,"end":14950.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14948.36159375,"end":14948.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14951.770343750002,"end":14963.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14964.13971875,"end":14972.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14964.173468750003,"end":14964.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14971.61534375,"end":14972.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14972.83034375,"end":14975.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14975.95221875,"end":15009.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15009.769718750002,"end":15022.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15021.93659375,"end":15051.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15046.75971875,"end":15046.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15046.77659375,"end":15047.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15050.10096875,"end":15050.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15051.180968750003,"end":15052.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15052.716593750003,"end":15053.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15053.391593750002,"end":15055.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15058.065968750001,"end":15065.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15072.39284375,"end":15075.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15076.24034375,"end":15077.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15077.067218750002,"end":15079.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15081.37034375,"end":15081.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15081.387218750002,"end":15082.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15082.855343750001,"end":15084.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15085.184093750002,"end":15088.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15088.96409375,"end":15090.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15090.38159375,"end":15092.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15094.094093750002,"end":15099.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15099.595343750003,"end":15103.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15103.375343750002,"end":15106.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15106.345343750003,"end":15107.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15108.25221875,"end":15110.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15111.222218750001,"end":15117.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15118.140968750002,"end":15122.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15122.798468750003,"end":15123.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15124.890968750002,"end":15127.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15128.29971875,"end":15128.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15128.485343750002,"end":15130.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15128.940968750001,"end":15131.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15130.915343750003,"end":15131.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15131.894093750001,"end":15137.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15136.922843750002,"end":15138.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15138.57659375,"end":15138.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15138.593468750001,"end":15138.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15138.62721875,"end":15138.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15138.644093750001,"end":15152.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15144.01034375,"end":15144.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15151.18221875,"end":15152.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15153.03846875,"end":15153.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15153.93284375,"end":15156.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15157.004093750002,"end":15159.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15159.72096875,"end":15164.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15165.20534375,"end":15166.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15166.977218750002,"end":15168.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15169.238468750002,"end":15170.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15170.824718750002,"end":15171.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15172.07346875,"end":15173.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15174.11534375,"end":15179.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15180.03846875,"end":15182.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15183.075968750003,"end":15186.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15187.109093750001,"end":15188.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15188.94846875,"end":15191.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15191.68221875,"end":15197.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15197.774093750002,"end":15201.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15201.722843750002,"end":15203.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15203.511593750001,"end":15206.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15207.207218750002,"end":15226.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15226.90034375,"end":15228.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15228.689093750003,"end":15243.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15244.04534375,"end":15250.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15250.829093750002,"end":15251.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15251.976593750001,"end":15253.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15254.49096875,"end":15255.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15255.97596875,"end":15258.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15258.692843750003,"end":15260.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15261.224093750003,"end":15265.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15265.98284375,"end":15267.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15267.56909375,"end":15272.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15272.648468750001,"end":15274.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15274.487843750001,"end":15276.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15277.22159375,"end":15285.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15286.70534375,"end":15287.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15287.81909375,"end":15289.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15289.35471875,"end":15291.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15291.88596875,"end":15293.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15295.277843750002,"end":15296.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15296.189093750003,"end":15304.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15305.21721875,"end":15307.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15307.731593750003,"end":15312.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15312.625343750002,"end":15314.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15314.414093750001,"end":15315.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15316.202843750001,"end":15317.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15318.902843750002,"end":15324.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15325.534718750001,"end":15326.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15326.95221875,"end":15327.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15329.230343750001,"end":15329.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15330.22596875,"end":15333.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15331.660343750002,"end":15332.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15332.706593750001,"end":15342.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15335.32221875,"end":15335.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15342.56159375,"end":15343.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15342.595343750003,"end":15343.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15343.641593750002,"end":15361.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15344.856593750003,"end":15346.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15359.419718750003,"end":15362.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15362.558468750001,"end":15363.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15362.676593750002,"end":15382.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15379.16346875,"end":15382.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15383.145968750003,"end":15389.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15390.250343750002,"end":15395.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15390.60471875,"end":15392.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15393.55784375,"end":15394.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15395.059718750003,"end":15402.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15403.88534375,"end":15405.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15405.99471875,"end":15407.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15407.47971875,"end":15414.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15411.360968750003,"end":15414.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15414.48284375,"end":15417.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15417.23346875,"end":15423.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15425.164718750002,"end":15425.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15426.02534375,"end":15428.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15428.050343750001,"end":15437.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15432.066593750002,"end":15433.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15434.935343750003,"end":15450.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15446.528468750003,"end":15448.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15450.93284375,"end":15458.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15458.45909375,"end":15459.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15460.247843750003,"end":15461.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15462.137843750003,"end":15464.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15464.972843750002,"end":15469.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15470.59221875,"end":15471.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15472.212218750003,"end":15481.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15482.370968750001,"end":15483.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15484.19346875,"end":15485.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15486.31971875,"end":15488.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15488.496593750002,"end":15489.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15490.133468750002,"end":15493.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15493.64346875,"end":15500.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15500.950343750003,"end":15501.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15502.165343750003,"end":15503.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15503.785343750002,"end":15507.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15508.020968750003,"end":15517.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15517.285343750002,"end":15520.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15521.21721875,"end":15521.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15522.195968750002,"end":15523.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15523.17471875,"end":15526.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15526.65096875,"end":15527.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15527.730968750002,"end":15532.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15532.50659375,"end":15539.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15539.30721875,"end":15540.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15540.690968750001,"end":15542.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15541.821593750003,"end":15542.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15543.407843750003,"end":15544.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15546.32721875,"end":15547.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15548.672843750002,"end":15555.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15564.535343750002,"end":15566.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15566.594093750002,"end":15567.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15574.27221875,"end":15575.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15575.33534375,"end":15598.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15599.129093750002,"end":15604.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15604.27596875,"end":15604.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15604.292843750001,"end":15604.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15606.28409375,"end":15621.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15622.855343750001,"end":15633.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15634.144718750002,"end":15634.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15634.81971875,"end":15655.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15656.79096875,"end":15664.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15667.202843750001,"end":15669.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15670.527218750001,"end":15671.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15672.36659375,"end":15695.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15695.02971875,"end":15695.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15696.362843750001,"end":15714.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15714.047843750002,"end":15714.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15714.520343750002,"end":15719.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15717.422843750002,"end":15717.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15717.473468750002,"end":15718.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15720.409718750001,"end":15721.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15720.44346875,"end":15756.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15721.75971875,"end":15722.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15756.35346875,"end":15802.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15802.641593750002,"end":15812.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15812.496593750002,"end":15816.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15815.90534375,"end":15815.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15815.939093750003,"end":15815.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15815.95596875,"end":15816.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15816.968468750001,"end":15825.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15825.97971875,"end":15833.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15833.30346875,"end":15835.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15835.379093750002,"end":15842.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15843.360968750003,"end":15843.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15843.85034375,"end":15866.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15866.378468750001,"end":15895.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15896.095343750003,"end":15918.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15918.539093750001,"end":15923.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15923.753468750001,"end":15937.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15938.468468750001,"end":15941.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15941.843468750001,"end":15969.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15970.024718750003,"end":15996.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15996.653468750003,"end":16004.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16005.614093750002,"end":16009.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16009.47846875,"end":16016.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16017.004718750002,"end":16017.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16020.34596875,"end":16023.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16028.513468750003,"end":16029.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16029.964718750001,"end":16033.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16033.96409375,"end":16035.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16035.80346875,"end":16036.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16037.38971875,"end":16039.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16043.802218750003,"end":16044.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16045.270343750002,"end":16046.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16046.738468750002,"end":16048.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16049.168468750002,"end":16050.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16050.82221875,"end":16052.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16052.77971875,"end":16055.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16057.53846875,"end":16058.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16058.989718750003,"end":16061.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16063.17471875,"end":16069.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16069.907843750003,"end":16074.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16075.25721875,"end":16078.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16079.222843750002,"end":16082.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16083.222218750001,"end":16086.816593750002}],"whisperx":[{"start":131.152,"end":136.829,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1707.931,"end":1707.951,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":1764.48,"end":1793.36,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1848.22,"end":1856.402,"text":"報告委員會出席委員10人以足法定人數開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1858.345,"end":1886.502,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第7次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年10月23日星期三上午9時至下午1時16分地點紅樓301會議室出席委員陳永康等11人列席委員張祺凱等17人列席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員國家安全局副局長黃明昭法務部調查局副局長孫成一海洋委員會海巡署副署長"},{"start":1888.264,"end":1906.564,"text":"信謝慶清﹚內政部警政署防治組組長陳百祿﹚經濟部國營事業管理師師長胡文忠﹚衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀等﹚主席林召集委員易軍報告事項一宣讀上次會議意思錄決定確定二﹚邀請國防部部"},{"start":1907.225,"end":1922.262,"text":"部長．國家安全局．法務部調查局．海洋委員會．海巡署．內政部．經濟部．農業部．國家發展委員會．國家科學及技術委員會．交通部．數位發展部．衛生福利部報告．針對解放軍未來可能透過灰色地帶戰術和蟒蛇戰略對台灣封鎖之國安危機．"},{"start":1925.966,"end":1943.344,"text":"及如何確保關鍵物資自主．關鍵產業．基礎設施．能源自主．民生物資．糧食安全及醫療物資供應無餘之應處作為．並備質詢。國防部部長顧立雄報告委員盧美林等18人質詢均由國防部部長顧立雄．全民防衛動員署署長白潔龍"},{"start":1945.566,"end":1961.984,"text":"作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文鑫經濟部國營事業管理司司長胡文忠農業部綜合規劃司副司長黃興達交通部綜合規劃司司長張垂龍航港局副局長陳兵權數位發展部主任"},{"start":1962.524,"end":1987.731,"text":"秘書、湖北地級衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀等即席答覆決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請相關機關於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並赴資本會委員令指定期限者從其鎖定三委員張家俊所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢"},{"start":1991.608,"end":2015.186,"text":"請問正常委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處那議事錄確定,請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項,邀請國防部部長報告國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰．並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁及無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況．並備質詢。．宣讀完畢"},{"start":2023.766,"end":2026.368,"text":"那介紹在場的委員陳永康委員羅美玲委員介紹與會的官員顧立雄部長副參謀總長執行官鄭榮峰常務次長楊基榮"},{"start":2056.328,"end":2083.484,"text":"全民防衛動物園署署長 白潔龍總督察長 市總督察長 張元勛政治作戰局局長 陳玉玲軍備局局長 林文祥主計局局長 謝祺賢"},{"start":2088.361,"end":2098.886,"text":"軍醫局局長蔡建松戰略規劃師師長黃文啟資源規劃師師長鄧克雄法律事務師師長沈世偉整合評估師師長苗慧芬國防採購室主任趙雅萍"},{"start":2119.673,"end":2134.298,"text":"政務辦公室代理主任南靜婷政風室主任王正國人事參謀次長室次長劉佩智情報參謀次長室次長謝日生作戰及計劃參謀次次長陳文興"},{"start":2152.512,"end":2168.617,"text":"後勤參謀次長是次長陳道輝通勤電子資訊參謀次次長鄧恩年訓練參謀次長是次長張俊智陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義"},{"start":2182.025,"end":2201.221,"text":"海軍司令部參謀長 邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長 王德陽後備指揮部參謀長 薛淵全憲兵指揮部參謀長 呂正芳陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長 劉清勳"},{"start":2212.335,"end":2239.769,"text":"支通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁電訊發展室執行長許益興國防大學教育長李承忠中科院院長李士強"},{"start":2246.755,"end":2257.631,"text":"由於國防部長每週四都要參加重要的專案會議．所以顧部長今天列席備詢．巡禮從中午起請假．12點之後將由副部長徐衍璞代理備詢"},{"start":2263.683,"end":2275.331,"text":"本日會議邀請國防部顧立雄部長針對國軍無人機運用現況與未來的發展以及協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區之開發作業進度進行報告．並備質詢。請顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2291.131,"end":2303.184,"text":"主席、各位委員先進今日應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對國軍無人機運用現況與發展及中科院民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發計畫關切與指導再次表達誠摯謝意"},{"start":2308.829,"end":2336.005,"text":"2022年二五戰爭及2023以下衝突無人機在戰場環境中有效發揮不對稱效能為加速推動我國無人機發展本部以行政院指導協助中科院執行航太及無人機產業園區開發透過軍民合作鏈接中科院與國內民間的技術與產能建立無人機產業聚落達成國防自主目標強化全社會防衛韌性"},{"start":2337.614,"end":2353.159,"text":"接續由國防部軍委局長李文祥中將就國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰．並就協助中科院民雄航太及無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況向各位委員實施報告謝謝"},{"start":2366.414,"end":2376.425,"text":"召委、各位委員好、軍備局、局長報告:「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰．並就協助中科院民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況 。」因應當前提請威脅"},{"start":2382.651,"end":2396.669,"text":"借盡無二戰爭無人機的應用﹐發揮創新不對稱作戰效能本部已籌購多款無人機應用部署﹐可達縮短目標徵收與攻擊效果﹐協力各型主戰裝備發揚火力及發揮作戰效益"},{"start":2400.356,"end":2407.698,"text":"中科院在嘉義民雄擁有54公頃土地目前以營運資金11.1億元於民雄東側園區開發軍規無人機產線預劃115年投產令行政院113年8月23日核定以公共建設預算68.59億元"},{"start":2420.382,"end":2439.288,"text":"114至117年由中科院與民雄西側土地建置航太及無人機產業園區為落實國防自主推動軍民技術整合本部課證督導中科院積極推動並入力提前完工有關國軍無人機運用現況未來發展及民雄產業園區開發作業進度及概況說明如後。2.國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展1.運用現況"},{"start":2448.197,"end":2458.736,"text":"國軍無人機在作戰運用中主要區分堅徵及攻擊兩種任務依工人大小機型及機型不同運用說明如何包括依堅徵型"},{"start":2460.342,"end":2475.157,"text":"主要提供擊殺鏈中目標的獲得、標定、追蹤、戰果評估等能力並可即時傳遞戰場情報提升各型武器戰場覺知能力大型無人機執行長時間遠航程聯合監偵任務"},{"start":2478.789,"end":2496.384,"text":"提供早期預警及掌握敵軍動態所獲目標匯入指管系統建立共同作戰圖像二、中小型無人機對敵實施及時偵搜及識別提供我各型飛彈及武器精確目標位置增加目標獲得手段"},{"start":2497.969,"end":2522.303,"text":"2.攻擊型．可藉機體配置感知器及彈藥．致力執行擊殺鏈的程序．對爭獲目標．對爭獲敵目標實施即爭即打．1.小型人員殺傷型無人機．可跨越地形限制及建物障礙．針對集結的部隊、車輛及敵重要人員．進行即時攻擊．縮短作戰反應時間．有效摧毀目標"},{"start":2526.161,"end":2538.188,"text":"中型仿裝甲型無人機具長距離飛行能力可延伸現有仿裝甲武器攻擊距離對敵戰甲車實施攻擊降低我人員風險及裝備消耗"},{"start":2541.597,"end":2569.155,"text":"並藉機動靈活部署．增強對計劃及靈基性高價值目標攻擊效益．發揮不對稱關鍵戰力。二、未來發展．參考烏俄戰爭與以阿衝突經驗及本部國防創新辦公室 綜合敵情威脅戰爭形態．及軍民科技發展研究分析．未來無人機發展方向將以科技取代人力．火力取代兵力提高作戰效益說明如何。"},{"start":2571.076,"end":2580.723,"text":"藉中科院研發團隊民間新創技術能量及國際科技合作發展AI人工智能化、自動感測目標分配等技術。"},{"start":2583.086,"end":2608.443,"text":"研製發展各類制空彈藥．結合傳統驅直射武火力．以提升攻擊效能。．掛載武器或精準彈藥的無人機．以提升對敵臨機及高價值目標．及時攻擊能力。．中科院通營無人機完成研發測評．日圓二型通過測評及精進項目驗證．紅雀三型已完成測評報告送海軍備查．"},{"start":2610.865,"end":2619.935,"text":"需依軍種需求及國防預算配付進行量產．以提升國防整體戰力。三、中科院民雄航太機無人機產業園區開發作業進度及概況一、園區發展目標與策略"},{"start":2627.863,"end":2642.361,"text":"①發展目標,經過我國無人機產業生態系,以AI迭代創新速度,創造價格及品質優勢。②發展策略,導入低速風動及AI算力中心,以設計測試服務,吸引產業進駐。"},{"start":2645.245,"end":2646.947,"text":"2.客製化場域設置減少產業進駐障礙與區內營運成本3."},{"start":2646.947,"end":2650.169,"text":"設立產清除冷韌性電網﹐有效調節尖離風電力﹐達成低碳排核核心目標2."},{"start":2650.169,"end":2650.73,"text":"配套重點工作"},{"start":2666.877,"end":2691.721,"text":"民雄西側基地航太曁無人機產業園區開發作業將於113年12月底完成專案工程管理技術服務案並展開尋商需求確認後續本部軍備局將成立專案編組督導中科院專人專責落實工程進度管理並配合經濟部加以縣政府招商作業如期如質達成園區開發目標"},{"start":2694.702,"end":2708.173,"text":"民雄東側基地中科院自用園區同步展開開發建構無人機產業生態系支持無人機產業聚落行程有效提升廠商進駐醫院重點規劃如後"},{"start":2710.976,"end":2714.059,"text":"自112至114年以中科院營運資金投資11.1億元開發5.12公頃新建園區基礎建設無人機研發產至棚廠移動、園宿大樓移動預計115年啟用以產至中大型軍規無人機"},{"start":2731.366,"end":2746.473,"text":"以啟動規劃設置、低速封凍等檢測儀具、設備及無人機AI模擬及算力中心提供無人機產業進行外型、結構等系統功能設計、測試及關鍵軟體晶片開發並透過AI模型迭代訓練優化之模擬驗證強化自主設計能力之準確度以縮短開發期程及降低研發成本"},{"start":2761.75,"end":2778.862,"text":"因應無人機發展日新月異．相關科技的多樣化運用．本部將以國防科研預算．協助園區AI算力建置．並藉整合國家部會資源補助關鍵技術發展．強化國際行銷分工整合能量"},{"start":2779.682,"end":2796.121,"text":"有效發揮國內產業優勢及彌補國際區紅色供應鏈需求建立無人機自主安全生產供應鏈提升國防產業韌性後續懇請大院繼續支持各項國防政策及施政作為報告完畢 敬請指導"},{"start":2804.481,"end":2820.887,"text":"現在開始詢答本會會員時駕2分鐘非本會的會員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情況進行處理現在由羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2831.447,"end":2841.016,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長還有經備局林文祥中將那還有中科院李士強中將請顧部長是 羅委員好"},{"start":2849.231,"end":2860.156,"text":"部長好部長從這個無二戰爭的國土防衛作戰當中我們看到無人機呢確實扮演了非常重要的這個角色可以充分發揮不對稱作戰的這個優勢那我國也是借鑒於此所以這幾年來一直積極的這個籌建無人機的這個戰力"},{"start":2868.399,"end":2894.641,"text":"那除了我們像國外這個軍購的這個MQ-9B無人機之外其實我們也透過中科院委制或是國內商購的方式來做籌貨那剛剛我有聽到我們軍備局我們林中正有提到那目前無人機的主的機種主要是區分為艱增跟這個攻擊兩大類那是不是這兩大類就已經"},{"start":2897.202,"end":2921.873,"text":"這兩個機型是不是完全就合乎我們作戰時候的這個需求所以本期先前有參閱了這個國防情勢特刊它裡面有刊登了一篇是有關於我國無人機軍事運作的這個現行跟未來的發展的一個分析報告那裡面有提到就是說目前我國的無人機如果對應到108年國防報告書所提出的整體防衛"},{"start":2926.115,"end":2928.677,"text":"本席和辦公室重新整理了目前我國服役中或是研發中無人機在整體防衛構想當中的對應的角色"},{"start":2948.496,"end":2973.697,"text":"現在我們提到的整體防衛的構想其實它是分為三個階段第一個階段就是戰力防護階段第二階段就是兵海決勝第三就是這個貪案間敵那我們先來看就是第一階段的部分我們看看是說我們目前所擁有的這個無人機是不是就合乎那個階段我們所需要的這個機種"},{"start":2975.859,"end":2981.62,"text":"OK 我們先來看的是戰力防護的這個階段其實戰力防護階段是貫穿整個作戰的這個全程那我們需要經過我們要需要透過各種手段來保持這個戰力並進行這個損害的控制也就是說讓這個損害到最小那所以我們這時候需要的這個機型應該就是微小型、戰術型跟輻射型的無人機那確實我們就要像"},{"start":3004.246,"end":3006.247,"text":"中國、美國、俄羅斯等國家都有投入研制"},{"start":3027.415,"end":3029.015,"text":"請問未來是否會投入資源進行無人機的研製?"},{"start":3052.742,"end":3076.679,"text":"運輸型無人機的研製請問跟委員報告就是中科院所有的研發需求都是依照軍種提出的作戰需求來發展那的確目前軍種並沒有提出有關無人機他並沒有提出來那變成說中科院這邊的話就沒有就沒有來做研發那請問部長這部分的話我們為什麼沒有提出呢因為我最近也看到相關的報告確實這一個"},{"start":3079.44,"end":3102.568,"text":"這個運輸型的無人機,美軍正在研發事實上也因為涉及到無人機的載重的能量,它的航程還有存貨率等等的所以我想我們根據美軍現在的相關我們看到的這些報告,我們會來積極的研討運輸型的無人機在"},{"start":3107.47,"end":3132.167,"text":"整個這個作戰的這個防衛作戰上面的一個需求來進行那這個部分我認為這個如果我們有一定的作戰需求的話我們自主研發的能力應該是還可以我們其實也是有這個能力來做研發的嘛因為之前我有看到那個交通部其實他們也希望就是利用這個運輸型的這個無人機他可能是屬於比較小型的"},{"start":3132.507,"end":3156.341,"text":"用來載運這個油物、處理油物的這個事情其實這個部分的話我們我覺得應該是可以來做延伸那因為我在這個報告裡面有看到所以我特別的提出來這部分應該是我們在作戰的時候很特別需要的那再來還有我們在看到第二階段就濱海決勝的這個部分那濱海決勝這部分它是最主要是在路上或是海上來做這個攔截比如說我們可以來癱瘓敵方的高價值的這個艦艇等等"},{"start":3161.224,"end":3187.823,"text":"所以我們所以這部分的話當然就是這個需要的這個我們可以看到說我們有這個艦翔嘛可以攻擊這個敵艦的這個雷達通訊系統等等可是我有看到其實我們還是有少了兩個功能因為我我之前有請辦公室稍微去做了一個一個整理就是說OK好不然艦翔也好或是說我們即將要要購入的這個"},{"start":3189.464,"end":3191.265,"text":"有嗎 有辦法嗎 有"},{"start":3216.992,"end":3243.938,"text":"也是有是不是?那有在進行當中嗎?第一個先跟委員報告那個建翔他是有匿蹤能力的並不是沒有建翔是有匿蹤的能力嗎?有匿蹤而且他還伴隨幼兒所以他還有幼兒?是還有伴隨幼兒因為我目前看到建翔的細節還沒有到這麼多一直看到就是說其實我們應該因為專家學者有在提到說其實這個部分的話我們應該是要來做研發那另外還有一個就是空中的這個"},{"start":3245.218,"end":3246.199,"text":"公極型無人機"},{"start":3264.454,"end":3276.189,"text":"不一定要從逆中發展就我們的戰術概念來講的話我們現在的是數量我們要數量很龐大的攻擊型無人機然後配合我們其他比較昂貴的精準戰役可是我們的數量好像到目前為止我們的數量其實還是不足的我有看過這個烏克蘭他們一年當中"},{"start":3282.958,"end":3285.34,"text":"各位委員報告,我想可能太具體的,我想不是以太多過多的介入,但是總體來講就是說"},{"start":3304.472,"end":3326.709,"text":"共軍假設要登陸作戰的時候他在這個航路的過程當中會有一個最脆弱的時候那在最脆弱的這個階段我們現在要發展就是在他最脆弱的那個階段然後來運用無人機來進行一個攻擊那這個可能是尋求一個大量的或者有一個匿蹤功能或者甚至是一個"},{"start":3328.868,"end":3354.435,"text":"就是說也有一個精準的一個功能等等這些所以各式的無人機現在發展的這個速度是非常的快的大概不多久就會有新的這種概念出來所以我們現在沒有辦法跟委員在公開的分享但是這個部分是我們無人機的運用甚至包括無人艇的運用"},{"start":3355.355,"end":3372.843,"text":"這個部分是我們在整個防衛構想上面日後一定會扮演非常非常重要的角色OK了解這個部分的話OK如果不方便透露的話那這樣我們這個這一題就到這裡那再來呢下來我想要提到的就是原物料短缺的這個問題"},{"start":3376.625,"end":3388.991,"text":"我相信台灣真的有能力生產無人機的機組件等等可是我們缺乏的還是原物料當然我看到的資料都是來自於很多的報告"},{"start":3390.612,"end":3390.632,"text":"第8點"},{"start":3422.099,"end":3450.986,"text":"我想我們現在就是說或者中科院先回答說明它一些相關的一些部分然後我再整個就整體我們現在委員就是針對供應鏈韌性的部分其實我們也做了很多最壞狀況的想定當然現在很多我們進口都沒有問題那我們甚至已經布局到就是說假如您剛剛講的相關原料我們被封鎖了或者是進不來了"},{"start":3451.806,"end":3477.045,"text":"或是斷絕進來我們用其他的替代方式例如3D列印例如射出金屬的射出成型這些都是未來我們會去努力的方式所以你們都有覆案對不對不會說因為這個供應鏈出了問題之後我們沒有辦法繼續其實還是可以的這個我們推演了很多有辦法解決就是了那當然我知道你們可能很多細節無法來做透露可是我想知道就是說萬一供應鏈出了問題我們是有沒有辦法解決"},{"start":3479.727,"end":3507.778,"text":"那再來還有一點我有看到國防安全研究院的國防國安所有提到他說臺灣的廠商有能力算上90%的無人機零組件可是目前臺灣還沒有辦法做到的關鍵零件是光電球相機雲台就等於這個無人機的眼睛這部分我沒有辦法解決嗎我看這份報導好像是10月份最近的BBC News裡面所報導的針對這部分我想請教國防部"},{"start":3509.438,"end":3537.408,"text":"我們現在正在採購一項設備我們採購這個設備進來之後我相信在很短的時間之內光電球的部分我們可以克服可以克服 我們可以自己來我們目前的話都是從哪裡採購 以色列日本比較多我們自己本身有辦法來研製我們現在就是想要跨過這個障礙但是它的有一個關鍵性的設備我們最近才獲得輸出許可"},{"start":3538.672,"end":3564.248,"text":"所以說這部分是可以解決的大概還要一年的時間還要一年的時間那我知道真的是很不容易我們台灣的這個無人機隊我們當然是期待就是說我們都能夠來自己來做研發那當然我們就是要創造我們就創造我們自己的這個軍力那這部分非常感謝我們國防部還有這個軍備局跟中科院的這個努力以上謝謝"},{"start":3570.182,"end":3572.103,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員部長請回接下來我們請陳永康委員上台質詢主席有請顧部長請顧部長也麻煩軍備局長跟中科院院長因為等一下討論有一些是在運用跟技術性的問題"},{"start":3604.62,"end":3613.933,"text":"部長您好是陳委員好今天的題目是很熱的但是因為涵蓋的範疇非常廣有些人是從採購的"},{"start":3616.075,"end":3616.575,"text":"國防部主席"},{"start":3640.746,"end":3661.968,"text":"是屬於消耗型是微型戰場內還是在陸上城鎮戰用因為的機率都使用不一樣或者兵海作戰用甚至大型的能夠這個爭打合一把它做一個矩陣出來那因為在2014年那時我還在海軍服務我們4月10號就做了國軍第一次的"},{"start":3663.36,"end":3679.23,"text":"臺平島兩棲實兵登陸那個時候中科院的第一代紅穴無人機但是因為通訊我們使用的是軍用頻道所以在船上把無人機用手指起飛看到兩棲登陸全程錄影畫面船會船上再透過"},{"start":3680.551,"end":3701.886,"text":"我們的衛星船會作戰中心因為那個時候我們已經構建了一個同步顯示戰場還有圖像所以看到的不是影像我們坐標圖像都已經建立了但是因為現在在發展過程中間民間廠商非常多那剛才這個院長也提了將來我們的雲台的相機如果能夠解決問題"},{"start":3703.598,"end":3718.407,"text":"因為在傳輸過程中目前民間廠商使用的大部分是以中華電信的這個微波載台微波來做但是到軍中以後我們有自己的頻段但是那麼大的數量這個頻段的分配就變成"},{"start":3719.528,"end":3737.693,"text":"在台很多但單位時間使用的時候受限於頻寬所以建議我們跟NCC要來再討論我們要提出更寬裕的軍用頻道這個要來爭取目前我們做的大概都是中等解析度還不是到高解析度跟MQ-9B的傳輸度"},{"start":3739.753,"end":3762.069,"text":"是完全不一樣的那個是大空域大領域長時間那9B的我在本席在國外的時候也參訪過也看過那只是提出來現在我們希望在解析度維持在中等解析度那傳輸速度跟頻關使你雖然有很多的架次但能夠同步使用的架次數量能夠保持彈性跟增加"},{"start":3765.131,"end":3788.897,"text":"因為這個大家都關切就是系列性的中共軍演從利劍A B那國防部都有整理整套的系列顯示戰場圖像那因為我們長時間都講在共同圖像你要有大格局從大範圍有共同的作戰圖像共同的戰術圖像然後在火邪的圖像所以從中間這張圖你看到有COP CTP"},{"start":3790.449,"end":3790.589,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":3819.861,"end":3839.913,"text":"我們立法院的照片各位看到的這就是3014精度、緯度、無人機的高度那這個精緯度它還是用60度60秒60分它還沒有完全變成digitized所以將來你傳回的無人機的圖像"},{"start":3841.001,"end":3842.742,"text":"他看到的理解的目標不會誤判"},{"start":3860.548,"end":3876.796,"text":"這個是提出建議這是一個很重要的這是從使用端來看我們看到操作過程中有很多模擬的場景跟中科院實驗室做的是有落差但是呢要滾動式的調整這個在軍備局跟這個中科院這邊能不能做一個說明"},{"start":3878.994,"end":3902.891,"text":"這跟委員做個報告齁剛剛好就是預計在下個月我們要跟陸軍司令部陸軍司令和國防部連參做一個展示這個展示裡面最重要的就是套圖的部分我們現在可以做到的就是把即時經過我們上面的即時衛星當然這個衛星是我們已經有簽約的衛星它經過的同時它的衛照直接能夠套疊到我現有的地圖上面"},{"start":3903.451,"end":3912.043,"text":"精準的套疊就有點類似剛剛委員所講的味道所以說這個是我們目前正在進行而且已經有了技術來源的部分"},{"start":3913.422,"end":3939.489,"text":"好現在剛才您提到就是有關雲台相機跟通信模組這兩個關鍵當然我們能夠克服往後走還要一點時間最主要就是說各個製造廠商他的這個風動還要委託中科院來做因為他的飛行受氣流的限制因為你的這個雲台相機最主要就是說你本身的三軸穩定跟飛機的飛行姿態不是同步"},{"start":3940.069,"end":3954.778,"text":"那個要做微調那個控制部分可能在中科院部分要花比較多的功夫那至於通信模組這個我們想就是由我們的這個通知次長室跟這個速發部在溝通的時候要爭取更大的頻寬"},{"start":3956.104,"end":3956.144,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":3985.795,"end":4005.858,"text":"規格要套到民間的這種小型這種小型無人機本來就是耗損型消耗型他達到零可惜用掉無人機但不要犧牲我們士兵的性命所以在操作手冊的叫飯裡面這種消耗型的是不要去追究操作手的責任本來就是耗損的"},{"start":4006.559,"end":4021.046,"text":"比方講這個飛機是三年有效你不可能在你部隊維持維保能力不需要他是耗損型的那最主要就是未來的趨勢將來因為飛離到海岸線以外你可能要跟海事衛星又做連結"},{"start":4021.886,"end":4024.447,"text":"中科院還要幫廠商做一些模擬就是這個您剛講的這個"},{"start":4048.474,"end":4073.231,"text":"對對各種的訓練細節我不提那最主要是因為這些數據做出來以後廠商要配合中科院的保密協定因為做出的參數不能夠外洩外銷是因為它是一個package但是我在測試過程中間我的測試能量不要把它流露出去那今天我的報告主要就是提出一個"},{"start":4074.394,"end":4074.554,"text":"主席"},{"start":4084.467,"end":4104.473,"text":"從作戰區的小部隊到戰區的戰術部隊的顯示以至於防衛作戰大規模的同步使用那這個平台我們還是希望能夠就是剛剛講到因為數位化的顯示一定要做同步的校正那這個經緯度並不代表操作手他對目標的判斷"},{"start":4105.313,"end":4132.301,"text":"送回的情資跟上面兩層長官看到的他的決心下達是不是確定同一目標你還要有威脅資料的參數資料庫自動做比對那這個部分就請中科院跟國軍把AI的識別要導入等於說目標的資料庫目標的圖像3D的可以扭轉的那同時對目標的解析度"},{"start":4132.881,"end":4133.581,"text":"接下來我們請王定宇召委上台質詢"},{"start":4164.056,"end":4166.002,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":4172.062,"end":4193.42,"text":"另外我待會會提到狙擊手的部分,請連期也上來一下。那個部長先請教一下,現在美日的聯合歷劍Kingsaw 2024,這個大概是一二十年來的,這個是正牌的歷劍演習,美國跟日本,兩年一次。那今年我看它的規模比以往都大,除了動用的"},{"start":4194.341,"end":4212.118,"text":"美國、日本、澳洲相關國家的兵力達到4萬5千名海空軍以外另外他也邀請了所謂的在印太地區的友盟來做觀察員相當多的國家這一次的美日歷艦軍演"},{"start":4213.439,"end":4214.139,"text":"本席在這邊詢問每日的歷屆聯合軍演"},{"start":4242.208,"end":4243.392,"text":"我們有沒有去觀察"},{"start":4244.15,"end":4273.345,"text":"有,跟委員報告,我想這個是就如委員所講的他動用的參演的兵力在日本的自衛兵力達到3萬3千多那美國也達到1萬2千多那另外派遣各式的艦艇達到40幾艘然後這主武戰機有達到370餘架次這樣子那他這個參演演練的科目也是相當的這個全程包括他的演練科目,因為他從"},{"start":4274.245,"end":4299.71,"text":"10月23號到11月1號跟中國那個山寨版的立建完全是不一樣的東西對,它從指揮所的演練、聯合反艦作戰兩棲空降、防空飛彈的防禦、島嶼防衛、海上交通的安全確保、然後重要設施的防護、還有後勤的補給、醫療、聯合指揮通信系統等等這些都涵蓋在裡面那台灣在這場演習的角色是什麼?觀察員"},{"start":4302.736,"end":4323.384,"text":"因為坦白講他的科目看起來跟我們都有一點關係你說南海我們有太平島在那裡你說東海也是我們的防線之一也就是說他所關心的印太地區的和平跟穩定嚇阻武力破壞現狀事實上台灣是裡面我坦白講是主角不是配角"},{"start":4324.164,"end":4351.236,"text":"所以他這一次的聯合軍演擴大規模他邀請的是他們有簽比如說美國跟澳洲有所謂的聯合的防禦條約等等這些有派兵力另外他也邀請了一些觀察員的國家來做觀察那我該是請教當然基於國家安全跟國家利益我尊重部長可以保密但如果能透露的話我們國家有沒有受邀去參與觀察這一場軍演"},{"start":4353.759,"end":4379.847,"text":"我想他有邀訪這個大概十幾個國家那我們並沒有被邀訪是我們沒有在邀訪國家當中是不過我想就如剛剛委員所講的其實我剛剛透露那些已經我不曉得算算是過多了但我只是強調這個他們每日協同來利用這個演習來進行一個"},{"start":4382.428,"end":4407.25,"text":"相對應因為中國一直在維持我因為你該把那個科目念完那些不管是反登陸保護島嶼等等那些科目念完你就會得到一個圖像那個圖像我們大家各自想像但我的意思是說等於臺灣在正式的邀請國家名單裡面是沒有的但是我們應該會以某種形式的方式去了解這整個軍演的過程我這樣詮釋對不對"},{"start":4410.014,"end":4435.649,"text":"可以這樣說後面我就不為難因為這些科目其實有些演習科目坦白講演習是我們平常有計劃透過演習來確認計劃是否可行再透過演習得到的數據去修正計劃再演習這是一個過程所以單純的知道並不能建立跟友盟之間的聯合的戰鬥力量"},{"start":4437.745,"end":4466.358,"text":"有的要檯面上有的不一定要檯面上但我認為台灣在第一島鏈的重要性以及我們在相關建制起來的裝備這一些透過演習來驗證彼此不管是C4ISR的通訊或者作戰指令的首領或者戰場環境的管理這個部分其實要透過扎實的去做而不是紙面上的或一句話的承諾那個是沒辦法在真正面對混亂的時候沒辦法運作的"},{"start":4466.698,"end":4491.257,"text":"所以我期待顧部長這邊第一個我們當然要有但是在國際的現實環境上我們不一定要講但是我希望慢慢這一步走向清晰化其實也是一個嚇阻的方式這部分的訊息的清晰其實也是讓那些蠢動的想要發動愚蠢的侵略的人他要重新去想定他的狀態"},{"start":4492.358,"end":4516.433,"text":"可以建構一個Not Today今天可能狀況不一樣要重新他們也要回去重新擬定他們的計畫所以我才會在這邊常常提醒國防部在能顯露出來的訊息盟友之間的默契下應該顯露的基於國家利益可以顯露不應該顯露的也基於國家利益跟盟友互信也不顯露這個主題我最後是部長有沒有什麼需要補充的"},{"start":4516.901,"end":4525.952,"text":"我只是想要說明的就是說這樣子的一個聯合軍演他的參演的兵力跟他演練的科目就是屬於這個美國在這個"},{"start":4528.625,"end":4548.01,"text":"有要求這個印太司令部他在協同這個印太的第一島鏈國家跟他自己來做這樣子的一個演練來產生一個所謂的一個協同嚇阻的一個效果的一個在政策這樣的一個政策觀念之下所從事的必要的一個軍事的一個演練"},{"start":4549.21,"end":4577.526,"text":"所以他在第一島鏈形成軍事嚇阻臺灣剛好就在第一島鏈所以他的效果上對我們臺灣來講是一個正向的效果我認為是非常正面的一個效果我下一個比較具體是有關狙擊手的部分部長可以先回座啦你聽我希望這個部分能夠有所改進這個是很細節的部分但是我覺得可以做一個思考我先看第二頁"},{"start":4579.649,"end":4601.757,"text":"我們狙擊手其實在戰場上是很重要的一環訓練也要很扎實人員也要精挑細選但我們目前台灣的狙擊手面對幾個問題我希望我們經過今天的諮詢能夠真的解決他第一個我們狙擊手一組狙擊手他要有一個成套的裝備"},{"start":4603.615,"end":4625.617,"text":"然後呢裝備裡面包含彈道計算器包含測距儀個人通訊機為什麼要個人通訊機狙擊手的通訊要另外的你看混在一般的通訊裡面的話狙擊手在狙擊的環境下其實對他是不利的還有專屬的通訊設備這叫一套成套裝備那我們現在呢狙擊手成套裝備有嗎"},{"start":4627.288,"end":4644.922,"text":"跟委員報告 狙擊手成套裝備那個因為狙擊手他的兵間的主要全職單位是在部校所以陸軍幫三軍的狙擊手已經統建了成套裝備有12項您剛剛講的都有包含在裡面那從今年"},{"start":4647.664,"end":4659.136,"text":"從今年到114年我們也陸續逐步的在撥發了部隊在今年之前是不夠的嘛是不夠的對啊因為這個題目我跟你們討論過很多次就是說很久以前我們就討論過這個問題後來我發現欸怎麼會有的人有彈道計算機"},{"start":4664.124,"end":4692.431,"text":"那有的有這個有的有那個變不成套嘛就好像我現在帶三個兵一個負責彈匣一個負責步槍另外一個帶著刺刀這邊開玩笑啊所以我們希望就是說在我們的國防預算有限下這個東西如果是必要你就要成套給他所以根據連期你這邊提供的就是你們希望在未來五年把它建制完成我們已經逐步作發到114年可以在整個配付完畢整個配付完畢好這第一件事情第二個齁"},{"start":4693.803,"end":4713.893,"text":"我們的訓練對彈藥太節省我知道尤其陸軍三軍最可以配得上勤儉健軍的就是陸軍就會省但是彈藥其實它會有效期的那我們在訓練實戰的話實彈的訓練的話其實這一塊沒有必要節省所以我們的彈藥的配付量"},{"start":4715.614,"end":4730.845,"text":"這個應該讓狙擊手有專屬的增加射擊頻率我們現在都有一個叫平行調波部長你知道平行調波平行調波就是抓長補短這種平行調波其實會讓各單位在訓練的時候"},{"start":4732.639,"end":4748.689,"text":"坦白講是省吃儉用我認為其他單位不知道至少在G級這一塊因為G級人沒有那麼多啦事實上可以讓他的配付量夠然後增加射擊訓練的頻率把平行調波至少不要用在G級這個部分能不能做得到"},{"start":4749.749,"end":4774.471,"text":"報告委員跟您報告具體數字我不方便講因為我們三種類型用的槍不一樣當然這些專用狙擊彈從十數萬發到數十萬發量絕對是夠的當然那我們也了解那我們的確會檢討改進有些單位可能我們的彈是夠啦對阿有的單位會比較他可能作業人員沒那麼熟沒有提前做申請"},{"start":4775.572,"end":4799.052,"text":"然後讓這個在訓練的時候他們就感受到可能就不夠那當然我們這個增加社訓評估這個部分請你下去輔導特別我們從今年開始不管是我們的漢光40號採取無想定狀況ROE去中心化然後我們也實戰化訓練然後陸續那個151義南一年前會回來所以有些觀念要改我不是說現有的弟兄領導幹部班長錯而是說這個東西在變的當中"},{"start":4803.456,"end":4823.185,"text":"末梢神經還沒有到那我們當將領的將領就是從腦到手指頭要能夠一條下去所以這個麻煩他去溝通這個佩服量要夠另外我們退出美國狙擊學校的國際狙擊的競賽相當時間了嘛有很長時間了能不能再回去參加我們會積極在爭取跟協調"},{"start":4825.205,"end":4853.146,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時候可以回去我們還要再跟他們做一個溝通協調讓我們掌握一下制度現在是美方不願意讓我們參加還是我們這邊提出的太慢我單獨再跟委員報告好 這個我們大家一起合作因為這有有事關到交流協訓的部分對 這個就是現在我下面要講的我們的那個軍售配額軍售不是只有賣武器裝備訓練也是裡面一個軍售配額能不能有狙擊班的配額"},{"start":4856.172,"end":4879.722,"text":"我們可以來做個檢討研究一下因為坦白講狙擊手的實戰經驗很重要所以如果跟美國在實戰經驗的訓練的課程能夠銜接上的話他帶回來也許可以把我們的狙擊手能力提升所以我說今天是一個很細項但是長期被忽略的部分我們退出我們離開那個國際狙擊競賽很久"},{"start":4882.043,"end":4902.036,"text":"那我們在軍售配額裡面沒有狙擊班這個項目我希望幫他們爭取到這個讓我們有優秀的狙擊手到國際上學到最新的資訊回來另外我們現在狙擊手的那個因為去美國受訓是可以跟美國的狙擊能量接軌我最後要講就是說我們現在的狙擊手訓練場地是用戰車靶場"},{"start":4904.561,"end":4924.742,"text":"跟委員報告我們整個可以訓練狙擊手場地本島有5處那我們每一年都有做狙擊手的測驗跟競賽那從南側今年特別調整到我們白河那個南側嗎對 今年特別調整到這個三軍聯訓的基地我的建議你們現在就執行今年開始"},{"start":4925.602,"end":4949.033,"text":"對 今年已經撤了以往我們居守需要兩公里的範圍能撤的場地不多又安全的考量所以常常是用戰車的場地我們現在戰車自己訓練可能都不太足了所以可能要增加他們訓練的場地用三軍聯訓是一個好的方法那我們另外瞄準鏡跟槍上型的夜視鏡夜戰能力我特別要提醒部長或者我們參謀本部這裡"},{"start":4951.335,"end":4970.929,"text":"從其他國家戰場看到的經驗 夜間戰鬥能力是非常重要而我們國家的夜戰能力嚴重不足 裝備也不夠這個部分希望能夠把它補強起來我最後建議你們思考看看 回到前面第一頁就是說美國沒有像我們分成三類狙擊手"},{"start":4971.73,"end":4997.915,"text":"第一類、第二類、第三類一個第一類是特勤嘛第二類是聯兵營、機部營第三類是機部班等等特首、特首對,我們現在是分這三類這個只是建議我們如果參照北約跟美軍是野戰狙擊手、維安狙擊手它的好處是我們跟國際盟友之間的對話與會會一樣鞭制雷同、接軌容易"},{"start":4998.775,"end":5022.413,"text":"所以原來的編制不是不好但如果我們是有盟友協同的時候我們比照他們的野戰狙擊手跟維安狙擊手在對話的與會戰術以及溝通上會比較容易接軌那現在的制度如果你們認為比較好我也尊重請你們思考一下以上給部長跟我們各聯參單位來做參考謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝委員謝謝王定宇召委部長請回"},{"start":5026.496,"end":5054.753,"text":"接下來我們請沈博洋委員上台質詢。好,謝謝主席。那有請部長跟全動署署長,謝謝。請顧部長。呃,是。呃,沈委員好。部長好。好,署長好。"},{"start":5055.512,"end":5083.572,"text":"那這個呢我們一開始就切入這個政體就是說這一次這個民方法這個國民黨有提出一些修正那我們還希望權重署能夠先做一些溝通因為第一件事情就是說因為他們的宣稱是說他們不要讓學生上戰場啊等等之類的那他們這次動的呢就是有在我上面寫的這個民方法第二條那民方法第二條呢他指的是民防的工作範圍一到九那他們是直接把第四款"},{"start":5084.572,"end":5096.826,"text":"支援軍事勤務這六個字直接全部拿掉這一條其實跟學生一點關係都沒有這一條指的是全部的民防工作所以支援軍事勤務有哪些呢在施行細則右邊這個第三條"},{"start":5099.589,"end":5126.083,"text":"搶修機場：協助運輸：對空間試：情報：傷患作業：如果按照施行細則第三條支援軍事請勿的規定那麼以後民防在暫時的時候右邊這邊事情全部都不能做了所以這跟他們提的修法目的是完全不合的那他們的宣稱說這一個因為是學生的關係目前是希望權動署能夠跟教育部溝通"},{"start":5126.883,"end":5152.569,"text":"因為按照我們現在的法律教育部要做相關的動員按照權動法就他有自己的分類計劃所以教育部是可以自己決定的所以民防的範圍很大包含這一些也包含志願軍師勤務但教育部對於自己的學生的動員跟那個分類計劃要不要包含這個是他自己可以決定的他自己可以限縮而且我看到在112年的時候教育部已經說他把軍警"},{"start":5153.729,"end":5154.37,"text":"我昨天也有提到"},{"start":5176.67,"end":5201.765,"text":"是不是可以去跟教育部溝通這件事情讓他們能夠比較正確的跟社會去回應說現在的做法其實就已經是這個樣子了那另外也是希望就是民防法我認為支援軍事情務這一塊因為民防法第一條就已經規定平時跟戰時的任務嘛如果你把民防的工作的第四款拿掉那戰時的任務基本上根本就等於不存在了所以這一點是希望權動署能夠去幫忙溝通一下"},{"start":5202.725,"end":5228.963,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我想這樣子第一點就是說學校的這個這些學生的任務他本身是在做這個校園的一個防護然後發揮自救護舊的這個功能所以那民防法的因為這個主管的機關是內政部那其實剛剛委員有指教就是說因為他民防的這個"},{"start":5231.304,"end":5231.324,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5251.156,"end":5274.717,"text":"將這個整個拿掉可能會是的確會有一些這樣的問題不過因為這個主管機關的是內政部那我想我們的立場當然應該是說我們尊重委員的提案權但是涉及民安法跟相關的執法我們會配合內政部來審慎研議這個事情好 謝謝然後再請幫忙提醒一下因為這真的是蠻重要的不然社會上溝通很容易出現相關的誤會"},{"start":5276.258,"end":5289.373,"text":"好那這一個再來就是上次有問到連坐的事情那這一個有後來其實有到辦公室其實有問就是說到底有沒有這一個事項那是不是是不是可以就這件事情的後續稍微說一下謝謝"},{"start":5292.401,"end":5307.657,"text":"陸軍常務長向委員報告在上週委員提詢之後10月17號我們了解了到委員辦公室說明那確實在10月10號休假營外是有58炮子部是有事關發生一個營外的"},{"start":5308.618,"end":5308.738,"text":"主席"},{"start":5325.242,"end":5343.467,"text":"就取消了那我們也在利用我們的人事通報再次的要求這個個案應該是做當事人的營外行為的檢討跟視處而不要再去做類似為了維護全聯榮譽來共同約制這樣子的一個要求以上報告"},{"start":5344.347,"end":5368.418,"text":"謝謝蔡牧長,因為我覺得這個真的是蠻重要的,因為內規上,而且我們之前也才剛修了懲戒法相關的這些規定,那連座其實在2020年的時候呢,本來有說想要弄到內規,但其實是沒有的嘛,所以當內部沒有這個規則的時候,他就不應該,他沒有那個依據,沒有那個依據的話,應該一切都回歸到法律的規定,還有人事的規定,這真的是非常的重要,所以真的是很希望就是說,這樣的事情不要再發生。"},{"start":5369.658,"end":5394.784,"text":"委員好 對不起 我是董事長 跟您補充一下剛才在檢討的部分 非常謝謝委員的指導 論上我都說過了但是要跟委員說明這件事情 這跟連座法是兩件事第一個 榮譽價不是處分 就是沒有收回他的權益榮譽價是為了一個單位 他個人 如果立法統一的手段我給你的榮譽價 可能提到幾個小時但是如果沒有榮譽價 並不是處分 這點要核心序名第二個 他這個人犯的錯 是主觀針對說"},{"start":5396.404,"end":5424.197,"text":"等一下等一下等一下他不管是不是處分但重點是處罰到不是那個行為人沒有他不是他是收回給你的獎勵他只是收回獎勵這不是處分對但是今天跟處分無關今天重點是其他無關的人也被拉進來是這個我們會檢討這個要實質跟委員部不同說明這個對所以不能夠用這樣的一個方式讓無關的人被捲入這其實是非常重要的事是是是所以我覺得這真的因為畢竟規定就是沒有這樣做"},{"start":5425.057,"end":5452.515,"text":"他們有一個直接的法律的授權所以如果說今天要把其他無關的人一起處分的時候他必須要有別的授權的規定抱歉這個委員請讓我再講10秒鐘就是也沒有法律依據要給他這個榮譽假我要舉一個例子譬如說我現在選橘光楷模如果我因為我的單位我的單位喔有人觸犯經濟我是直接拿掉我根本沒有資格進這個橘光楷模的名單這是我們軍中對整肅軍艦提升榮譽的一個做法那至於做法上不當然剛剛參議長講過我們會指導謝謝委員"},{"start":5454.696,"end":5480.364,"text":"因為畢竟內部的規定當時就是希望不需要再有連坐的事情發生所以我們是希望不要有讓其他的人他可能是督導的人但是因為督導的人我們之前在督導的人也有提過就是說如果他今天在比如說在這個休假之前他都已經有宣導什麼等等之類的他也不會被處分這都是之前有講過的事情所以真的必須要注意因為我覺得這種事情如果不斷的發生的話這個是上面沒有辦法下達"},{"start":5482.346,"end":5482.787,"text":"副部長提到"},{"start":5492.325,"end":5518.779,"text":"國軍推放全民國防教育培訓講習說要廣出民間師資的能量這確實是好事但是我們面臨了兩個狀況這個是之前就已經有講過的一個就是在台北市政府還在替代役的義男進軍召集的時候放了抖音的影片當然我也是要幫他澄清一下他那個抖音的影片不是跟解放軍有關的他就是一個抖音影片而已"},{"start":5518.899,"end":5519.159,"text":"臺中新兵入營遊覽車"},{"start":5534.355,"end":5561.86,"text":"所以我現在要問的並不是說OK地方政府要怎麼做那個是給地方的議會他們來處理這邊是我想要列出來就是目前士兵會往來會坐車的狀況裡面有這三個一個是新兵入營這跟地方政府有關一個是返鄉專車一個是國軍偽商的交通車那我想問後兩者因為返鄉專車可能跟輔委有關就是輔委他們可能自己找嘛對不對那國軍偽商的這個交通車就會直接跟國防部有關"},{"start":5562.56,"end":5591.237,"text":"那我們如果為了要避免類似像這樣的狀況發生以國防部的立場有沒有什麼對策委員好 跟委員報告一下國防部他上次委員有提出來這個問題我們做了幾個檢討第一個就是我們現在跟我們簽約的這七家公司廠商已經完成一個合約的一個協定那現在就是最後階段在做一個採購式的一個修約的方式我們第一個就限制他所有的人到車上之後"},{"start":5591.997,"end":5610.506,"text":"按照交通部的規定實施交通的法規跟安全的事項宣導之後那就不會有任何影片的播放那這一段是第一個那第二個您剛剛提到返鄉專車他是福利委員自己找過來的我們透過我們一定到位的方式向所有的單位先做個宣導第二個"},{"start":5611.286,"end":5630.94,"text":"在上車之前會有相關的保防檢查單位去做個說明就是說按照這樣的方式來做事情那這樣的話就是這兩方面來跟委員做個報告感謝因為我覺得當然以契約的精神來講就是說你本來應該要做什麼結果他沒做那當然就是在返鄉專車這邊他畢竟因為不是你們直接去找"},{"start":5631.32,"end":5652.551,"text":"所以如果有相關的措施我覺得是重要的那至於地方政府那這個就是另外一件事情我們可能就也沒有必要在這邊討論那接下來呢就是今天的主要的這個無人機這個我之前有問過所以只是想問後來評估的這個結果就是因為今天呢在整個雅創這個腹地它其實有點小而且民雄那邊的建築物也多"},{"start":5653.311,"end":5673.51,"text":"所以就是他們在做這一個是非的時候你看它這一個沙河它目前只有大概50公里嘛50公里那我知道國防部之前好像有提過就是說可以可能往海飛啊或什麼等等之類的那現在就是說跟因為這是要跟民航局什麼等等之類的協調然後往東部的海域可能去走那只是想問一下因為這之前問過想追蹤一下後續這個評估的狀況為何"},{"start":5676.633,"end":5705.16,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在跟嘉義縣政府一起在合作我們希望能夠在嘉義的役族做一個專門的試飛場域那這個腹地大概有多大會往海上飛嗎還是還是會有往海上飛的部分那這樣的話目前來講對於這些廠商他要做測試要做沙盒之類的他會不會有什麼困難我們真正的困難其實在民航局法規的說法那目前來講民航局的態度呢"},{"start":5706.295,"end":5723.842,"text":"因為它還是需要要有四行認證的部分那這個部分我們還在看怎麼去把法規來做鬆綁因為我覺得畢竟我們已經和了無人機國家隊已經有一陣子了那接下來也有可能跟各國的這種無人機的合作那這種算是一種基礎設施的建制這個如果先做好了後續要做才會變得比較方便"},{"start":5725.683,"end":5745.652,"text":"還有另外一個就是跟飛手有關的這個之前有稍微問過國防部但是就是說請我覺得在公眾的這一個針對這個民眾來做一個說明就是目前去用無人機的需求畢竟跟民用是不一樣的但我們看到我們目前飛手訓練這邊的這一個標案上面它就有提到說先要考取民航局無人機的這個證照"},{"start":5746.932,"end":5747.453,"text":"入軍舊無人機飛訓練中心"},{"start":5763.562,"end":5790.469,"text":"向委員報告有關於您講這個我們在標案裡面有就是有要求要考照的這個這個第一個他是我們在一個多元獲得飛手的一個管道之下我既然有採購這個形式的那我們就在這個履約裡面要求他幫我培訓輔導民航機1A或是他各類型乃至於322C等等符合他需求的考照"},{"start":5791.149,"end":5812.904,"text":"那這個事實上在民航法裡面的規定我們屬於軍用的裝備我們是只要有專長他是秉儲在外但是我這個人員回來第一個我可以納入我的師資我要擔任師資的第一個我要有民航局的證照第二個其實在未來的訓練我們也期望能夠讓部隊每個人都成為所謂的無人機操作手這也是我們的目標所以"},{"start":5813.644,"end":5815.505,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員部長請回接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢"},{"start":5848.968,"end":5852.089,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長請顧部長是 林委員好部長早安 這個一個禮拜連續兩天都在這個委員會見到您其實無人機這個話題我想因為全民都蠻關注的所以在委員會當中也提蠻多的了所以今天我其實比較想要針對就是像這樣無人機其實上一次我們在講到那個"},{"start":5877.794,"end":5906.814,"text":"中共的聯合力艦B的時候我有特別點出一個點是說這一次他們在整個軍演的過程中還搭配了YT上面的這個展示喔那麼這個可以說是他們首次出現過去呢當然我們都說這個中國到底這個軍力有多軍容壯盛他們常常會有這些影片的展示但這一次他們是搭配了就是一個空景的畫面但是旁邊他們放了一個"},{"start":5907.734,"end":5911.478,"text":"先所放進去的這個畫面當時我就說了這也是中國的一種大外宣那麼過去其實本席在媒體的時候我們知道我們多數對於我們到底我們的軍力戰備是什麼樣的狀況我們通常"},{"start":5922.968,"end":5923.108,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5945.246,"end":5958.391,"text":"長白就是恫嚇全世界恫嚇台灣人我稍微查了一下就是國防部各個單位社群其實使用的蠻多的但是主要都是臉書跟YT為主那麼我們知道這個陣戰局之前我在看這個我們的這個報告的時候呢也有特別提到有媒體試讀那麼我其實比較想要詢問的部長的是說"},{"start":5968.214,"end":5970.856,"text":"過去軍文社它是提供媒體需求因為有一些包括在採訪的時候有一些機敏性所以無法讓媒體記者到第一線就是由軍文社拍好提供給媒體然後如果現在我在我們的夜報裡面看到的政戰局的這個媒體識讀這個是在舉光原地裡面所公佈的對不對"},{"start":5992.051,"end":6016.111,"text":"我特別去看了幾集的內容啦專家學者中規中矩但是就會覺得影片很長但是卻沒有辦法真的那麼的吸睛其實本席今天的第一個題目要提出的是部長我們知道現在臉書YT我們都有在做使用可是觸及率不高當面對中國現在也在搞他們的大外宣甚至於是把他放到"},{"start":6017.672,"end":6041.598,"text":"這個YT上面讓國人來看或者是讓媒體來取用的時候我們在面對宣傳的時候雖然喔最近在野黨在卡總預算然後他們特別會去拿所謂的行銷預算來做杯葛認為說啊這個就是在洗人民的腦但是我必須要強調這種當別人也在尤其是我們的敵對勢力也在對我們進行恫嚇的時候那麼我們自己在"},{"start":6045.759,"end":6046.159,"text":"政政局先回答一下"},{"start":6068.055,"end":6070.356,"text":"委員好 我是證人局局長陳玉玲跟委員報告首先是在媒體試讀的部分我們除了在舉光原地播出之外同時我們也會在YouTube上面上架然後在我們的全民國防資訊網裡面所有的媒體試讀的課程也都會在我們的資訊網上公佈另外也會提供給"},{"start":6094.241,"end":6100.365,"text":"我們這個在職就是公職人員上課使用還有也會主動的喊給各縣市來做全民教育來使用那至於委員您所提到的就是說在開拓其他管道的部分這個部分我們會朝向這個方向短影音的方向來做因為現在YouTube上面其實是百家爭鳴如果你只是放上去的話多數是無法獲得點閱率的"},{"start":6123.661,"end":6149.49,"text":"那麼我們都知道其實現在民眾有高達80%以上他們會用LINE的方式或者是LINE的官方網站等等當然我不是在幫特定的社群平台來做推銷而是這種直接推播的方式觸及率會更高那麼如果只是被動的放在YT上面那麼常常就是放上去但是無人問津臉書也同樣所以我其實做一個提醒因為"},{"start":6150.771,"end":6174.754,"text":"這個必須要有一定的規劃那麼才能夠真的讓更多的這個有關於國軍需要傳遞的資訊讓大家看到那麼其實我想問的是這樣就是我們在這個有關於秀軍事肌肉是一件好事我也認為軍文社拍的影片有越來越好坦白說過去本席20年前在看現在的照片或是影片都非常的精準"},{"start":6175.174,"end":6194.571,"text":"但是就怕我們在拍攝的過程當中一個不小心啊就被人家找麻煩比如說國軍在這個呃國軍線上的陸軍有關於無人機的這個射擊模擬的過程當中非常的好拍的也不錯但是就被人家抓到說有用中國大通慢巴的晶片"},{"start":6195.211,"end":6219.433,"text":"甚至於過去我們在許多的這些展示的照片的時候也被發現說有大疆的無人機那像這樣的過程當中到底是我們本身無法拒絕紅色供應鏈還是說是照片的誤用這樣的一個狀況是什麼因為一方面我們本來是要宣傳軍融壯盛但是卻變成是吐賊變成是"},{"start":6221.795,"end":6233.827,"text":"有問題的影片或影像洩露出去那這個狀況有沒有一個事前的核稿或者是就是有審視這個照片的內容是不是可以出去所以你們的過程是什麼樣"},{"start":6235.148,"end":6260.534,"text":"委員好 我是新聞處處長跟委員補充報告一下有關審片機制基本上國防部其實是非常完整的從不管是軍媒單位本身然後到偵探局的階層都有不同的一個審片階層您剛剛提到這個影片有關於這個晶片這段東西它本身這個影片它是一個在概念驗證過程當中的一個影片所以它其實裡面的內容它強調的"},{"start":6261.834,"end":6284.102,"text":"他並不是真的我們使用而是所謂的模擬畫面那你要知道像電視台如果是模擬畫面他上面會寫模擬畫面或非當事人或本人因為像這種照片一但出去之後或是這個影像一出去之後就很容易造成誤解比如說就像您剛剛解釋包括我之前在詢問的時候我得到的"},{"start":6284.662,"end":6310.865,"text":"答案也是所謂的概念影片但其實我直白的講它就是一個模擬畫面嘛就是非當事的影片嘛那像這個東西其實就是可以標註對不對是這個部分我們後續不管在影片裡面包括像委員提的這段東西怎麼樣去把細節東西標示清楚這個部分我們會依照委員指導來去做一個補充另外委員剛剛提到社群平台這段也特別跟委員報告其實國防部對社群平台的運用怎麼樣去"},{"start":6312.006,"end":6314.268,"text":"小編在翠上面的發文的語意也蠻接近年輕人使用的方式但是我"},{"start":6332.06,"end":6360.263,"text":"在這邊提醒的就是像中國大通曼巴這個晶片的事情或者是說我們的無人機採購或展示的過程中出現了大家無人機這種我們被視為是中國製紅色供應鏈的像這樣的照片或影像其實就不應該出去如果是概念就可以直接寫是概念式的部長是跟委員報告因為剛剛您提到那個因為這個是屬於還在概念驗證的一個階段的一個影片"},{"start":6361.15,"end":6386.055,"text":"剛委員指教就是說我們確實以後還要再多注意在這一點上面那這個部分如果說我們多元的這個傳播的這個管道我是覺得應該要希望這個政戰局也好跟新聞處也好我們來持續來精進"},{"start":6388.556,"end":6412.358,"text":"那另外一個當然是本席一直在持續追蹤的就是軍中現在國軍是不是因為受到這個假借貸徵洩密的持續威脅因為在9月18號又有一對許姓的兄弟因為逃避債務涉嫌跟中共的情報人員勾結以借貸為名義那麼他們是以吸收現役軍人來發展"},{"start":6413.499,"end":6440.257,"text":"共諜組織從中獲取不罰所得高達397萬那麼其實在之前我也多次的指出說在社群平台上面會出現這種要你用軍人證又或者是你只要願意拍攝一些軍方機密的這些照片甚至不一定是機密你只要是所在你所在的軍營裡面的相關照片就可以獲取一定的獲利喔"},{"start":6440.757,"end":6462.013,"text":"那麼其實這樣的事情我想我一直在追一直在問的原因是因為到底他只是真的提高國軍的金融素養就夠了嗎還是說其實在國防部或相關的單位有機會可以防範於未然比如說我們大概都知道弟兄的薪水是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":6463.314,"end":6482.487,"text":"如果說今天國軍弟兄的薪水他的許多的負擔已經超出他的薪水所得我們知道像現在有些是因為資金的借貸甚至有一些是出現了打電玩然後去買點數卡等等那當然有另外一種是進入了所謂的詐騙陷阱"},{"start":6484.548,"end":6499.269,"text":"那麼在這個部分請問部長在我們持續的追蹤之後到底這樣的事情除了事後的補鍋之外我們有沒有機會防範於未然先去了解國軍弟兄他們的財務的狀況呢部長"},{"start":6502.052,"end":6515.329,"text":"是,我們現在應該是要來有一個輔導的機制跟人員的考核的方式的一個計畫來瞭解這個財務私人的這個官兵的一個態樣那如果有發現的話我們會跟"},{"start":6518.404,"end":6520.966,"text":"因為我們知道這個金錢的誘惑其實事實上過去一直是存在的那麼過去我們"},{"start":6546.397,"end":6560.867,"text":"有相關的這種類似共諜組織他一定都是用錢的方式只是當然如果用這種現在通訊軟體社群平台這種借貸的方式可能更不容易去掌握但是他接觸力可能會更廣那麼這個部分的話恐怕除了心理輔導之外也在國軍內部的財務相關"},{"start":6568.112,"end":6588.406,"text":"的金融素養的培訓也是非常的重要那麼我再請部長跟相關單位能夠研擬出一個真的有效先防範與未然的方式對當然另外對國軍的這個相關的一些宣導和教育也是很重要的是好謝謝我們會持續來進行這樣謝謝林淳於委員部長請回"},{"start":6597.642,"end":6597.882,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":6626.53,"end":6651.386,"text":"部長好 部長有沒有看到一個最新在Foreign Policy外交政策上面投稿的文章由臺灣民意基金會研究員黃寶榮破晃的這一篇文章有沒有得到相關的這個訊息您講的是那個雄三飛彈雄三的那個被透露的這個部分嗎不是我講的不是我講的是海豐部隊的部分"},{"start":6657.773,"end":6669.529,"text":"這篇文章有提到北京南德信息技術有限公司聲稱在國防安全領域提供諮詢"},{"start":6670.609,"end":6690.154,"text":"那這個在他可以公開查閱的文章裡面有把海豐部隊也是我們非常重要的反艦機動型的這個部隊的一些情資其實在公有的領域上面就看到我們民眾對就是我剛所講的這個對對對像這個部分不知道部長有沒有掌握到相關的這個訊息"},{"start":6692.306,"end":6699.02,"text":"我有看到相關的報導,我想我們現在要重要的當然就是做一個"},{"start":6703.008,"end":6724.979,"text":"應該是說一個信機管理的一個重要性這個重要性要讓所有的部隊的長官還有所有的官兵都能夠了解這個信機管理的東西就是說你在整個過程當中你必須要氣力偽裝隱匿還有對你無線電的信號要做管制等等"},{"start":6726.019,"end":6749.446,"text":"不斷地去變段你的戰術位置這個是非常重要的那因為像這樣子他的一個報告好像意思就是說我如果理解沒有他會不會說瞬間我們就會整個會被摧毀我記得我看到的是這個樣子但是我想我們真正的這個在進行的時候我們會有不同的戰術位置不會是固定的"},{"start":6750.134,"end":6775.437,"text":"那最重要最重要當然就是剛剛我提到的整個汛機的管理對戰力整個保存是非常非常重要然後在第一時間不會被摧毀然後甚至能夠保存下來然後來進而進行反制那這樣子的一個汛機管理是現在必須要非常非常重視的一個一個演練的項目之一這樣"},{"start":6776.209,"end":6790.508,"text":"所以你覺得在這個他所投稿的文章裡面他提出來的確實是一個可以我們改進的一個方向嗎?對因為信息管理現在是一個重要我剛剛提到的是一個重要的一個演練的科目"},{"start":6791.669,"end":6820.117,"text":"另外一個部分就是說在這個不管是海豐部隊在進行在部署的時候有大量的這一個一般民眾或許是媒體這樣子拍照然後把這樣子的訊息那透過公開來分享這些公開的請這邊就公開的請知了嘛這會不會影響到我們的情報安全我們是不是有什麼樣的方式可以來去做不管是在法律層級上面或者是有什麼我們能夠做的"},{"start":6821.314,"end":6850.167,"text":"其實跟委員報告這個其實是變成是一個我們如果講說叫反沾那如果我們被反沾出來其實這是不對的那我們如何讓他做好更淒敵的部分我譬如說舉我不小心就是說我們讓人家看不出來這是這是那個軍用軍用的裝備這件事情應該要來更加強所以偽裝的這個部分應該要做得更好一點"},{"start":6850.627,"end":6866.89,"text":"主要看到這幾個剛才提到的看起來都被我們的各媒體都有掌握到所以說可能我們自己也要來思考一下剛才部長你提到的偽裝的部分必須假設就是這些"},{"start":6868.464,"end":6868.724,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":6886.651,"end":6900.303,"text":"委員好 我是海軍參謀長那回應您的問題有關其實我們整個機動部隊的一個位置的選刊它有一般的我們的一個實際上的戰術位置以及平常的一個機動路線"},{"start":6901.744,"end":6902.784,"text":"反情報有可能是以真是假"},{"start":6923.709,"end":6924.55,"text":"這篇文章提供12個海豐部隊的"},{"start":6942.343,"end":6943.584,"text":"注紮基地的確切座標"},{"start":6965.914,"end":6966.094,"text":"主席"},{"start":6987.344,"end":7015.029,"text":"武器裝備是使用的人還有指揮的人還有他怎麼用的情報所以這個這兩天的包含安全層級我一直在跟部長在強調這Clearance的部分就是說這個他所掌握的資訊跟他的軍階有些時候沒有正相關有些時候甚至是負相關的時候那我們變成我們安全揭秘的這個層級是要因應他的揭秘層級而不是因應他的關節像是昨天我們講到的廉政署的那一位"},{"start":7016.03,"end":7033.005,"text":"是委員講的對就是說我們按照美軍相關的做法的話我也現在已經要求了就是說不是階級而是以他揭秘的這個程度來進行這個人員安全的查核這個部分已經列入我們保安安全總隊應該要查核的"},{"start":7037.586,"end":7056.532,"text":"目前我們今天談到的國軍我們所有的擁有的無人載具那當然大家都會說數量足不足以面對中國的威脅那其實不僅僅是數量因為現在國防部他籌獲的近千架的無人機那2027年會籌獲到3000架以上的這個軍規上用的無人機"},{"start":7057.712,"end":7072.774,"text":"但是烏克蘭每個月消耗是一萬架次的無人機但不管是他消耗的是哪一種無人機型有可能是堅稱的大型無人機或者是小型的這一種他其實很難放在同一個量級去做平等"},{"start":7074.076,"end":7097.317,"text":"什麼叫夠什麼叫不夠是一回事我們有沒有足夠的產量產能在當我們消耗完這些無人機的時候能夠再進行生產來去做補充這是想要請教部長或者是院長的部分我們現在應該是說我們要運用我們的作戰需求那甚至有些高低配就是說有一些剛剛提到要大量大量的話成本一定要"},{"start":7098.498,"end":7117.111,"text":"要能夠降低那有一些是屬於比較精準的那就可能會價格會高一點那這個會高低配那這個根據作戰需求的話我剛剛已經提到了還是要尋找這個他在他萬一要進犯的時候他的最脆弱點的所在那我們最有效的這個無人機的攻擊"},{"start":7118.071,"end":7143.101,"text":"對它是什麼?我們是首次作戰所以我們的無人機就從我們這邊從首次作戰找它的脆弱點來講相對於它來講它的無人機要過來特別是當然它大型的無人機當然是可以過來但是如果它的小型無人機沒有辦法回那麼遠的話那相對來講我們的小型無人機應對它的登島作戰的在這個不管近"},{"start":7143.841,"end":7144.822,"text":"再跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":7169.004,"end":7184.676,"text":"自主的產能確實是重要的這也是我們從烏克蘭經驗裡面要提到是非常非常重要的另外一點我們可以思考的方向就是說剛剛你提到小型無人機小型無人機的航程有限等於說中國不可能源源不絕的"},{"start":7185.697,"end":7185.757,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7205.569,"end":7205.729,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7220.712,"end":7243.042,"text":"那不管是海上的載具跟海下的載具那我們在民雄航太園區它是中科院的我們的一個旗艦型的計畫那當然我們看到很多包含這個分享的一些你說AI的建置等等一些實驗室的分享等等場區的有沒有針對這個海面上海面下的這一些無人載具也能夠使用的"},{"start":7244.763,"end":7266.844,"text":"因為那個地理限制的關係所以我們在民雄預備建置的其實是包含空中和地面反而是沒有海面的所以說他沒有辦法說在模擬simulation如果是模擬的部分我們是可以協助的也是可以協助的也就是說未來進駐的航太園區的除了是在你說路面上或者是"},{"start":7267.685,"end":7275.711,"text":"因為模擬算力它最重要的就是它的作戰場景設計所以這個作戰場景設計就是我們防衛作戰的場景所以勢必是所有的無人載具都可以在這個模擬算力中心裡面去做設計的"},{"start":7289.741,"end":7308.477,"text":"所以我必須要強調說以後我們的民雄航太園區包含這個水面下的這些廠商如果願意進駐也都是一個他們也還是可以使用我們的相關的這些資源嗎是甚至包含檢測我們也可以先做檢測也可以先做OK非常感謝那再來就是民雄航太園區我們當初在地方有開說明會"},{"start":7309.878,"end":7330.812,"text":"那這個說明會的時候其實有包含村長還有一些村落的一些比較年長的這些長輩有提到說二戰時期盟軍曾經對民雄也就是在民雄航太援軍附近有進行轟炸所以他們提供相關的防空設施還有這個抗炸能力掩體"},{"start":7331.713,"end":7344.347,"text":"有沒有相關規劃因為根據我們從內政部的防空避難專區來看到還沒有看到任何的防空設施在我們的中科院及產業園區內所以這個部分的規劃是不是可以放入考量"},{"start":7346.011,"end":7361.127,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前的確我們還沒有做類似的規劃而是把它列入國軍的整體防空的部分但是未來隨著明年PCM我們整個園區的細部規劃出來之後我們勢必也會針對中間的重要關鍵基礎的部分去做相關的規劃"},{"start":7362.248,"end":7390.019,"text":"我不但在跟民眾講說民雄航太園區它不僅只是軍用它對於地方上面產業的這個促進因為會有大量的工程人員或者是商業人員或者是我們剛剛講到的新創公司創新公司它不見得是百分之百軍用的那商用的也是很大的部分可是他們會有提出這樣的擔憂點所以他們甚至說不是在航太園區而是在鄰近的周遭的四個村落都能夠有相應的防空避難甚至是"},{"start":7391.348,"end":7391.788,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員部長請回"},{"start":7420.834,"end":7423.177,"text":"接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":7440.018,"end":7454.924,"text":"國防部長,我要延續我上次在這個地方你上任的第一天我就特別提出有關於我們臺東關山農民抗疫的戰備跑道"},{"start":7456.345,"end":7483.38,"text":"然後在這個地方特別質詢你然後呢你特別在這個地方也說請已經聽到地方的名義及我們空清參謀長曹敬平引諾檢討請聽地方的聲音來做一個討論但是我聽到的目前到底決定"},{"start":7484.591,"end":7507.066,"text":"要開闢關山戰略跑道還是有替代的一個方案現在我們鄉親在台東已經對我們現在國防部還有空軍已經憤憤不停到底有沒有答案因為有關於國防部在計畫拓寬台九線關山路"},{"start":7511.369,"end":7529.549,"text":"路段新建站面跑道軍方3月12日下午前往關山證供所向地方說明會前農民高級海報適時守護田地縣長姚慶林高分辨表態絕對反對"},{"start":7531.731,"end":7552.162,"text":"於在今年的7月9號帶著臺東各地方的農民包含農會包含民意代表包含政長民意代表都已經來到我們立法院來提出抗議"},{"start":7553.323,"end":7578.656,"text":"而且你也說也聽到他們的聲音了可是到現在後續到底你見與不見我們要很清楚的來回應來回應我們的地方的民意以安安他們的心第一個如果在那個地方開闢戰備寶套的良田不是只有原住民在那個地方居住的居民裡面"},{"start":7580.407,"end":7596.225,"text":"在這個整個的500公頃影響到將近1000公頃未來戰略跑道還不要再徵收土地一定會徵收但是問題是那個地方是糧食糧田的地方有"},{"start":7597.403,"end":7623.23,"text":"有機場但是你們要籌備良好的糧食如何供應我們國軍的戰備當然我對國軍的建軍戰備我絕對支持但是我們要跟地方要好好的溝通而不是模裡樣可毀謠視聽現在一概彌彰部長你來正面的來回答這個問題等一下參謀長你要回答這個問題"},{"start":7624.41,"end":7650.042,"text":"跟委員報告我想我這邊的立場已經表示過去也是相當明確就是說假設地方沒有辦法能夠支持的話那我們這個案子就沒有辦法來推動所以我們希望當然還是希望地方能夠來支持但是我們會持續來跟地方來溝通但是這個就需要跟地方多溝通了"},{"start":7650.162,"end":7678.211,"text":"但是如果沒有得到地方的一個支持的話我想我們也不會一定強行來推動但是我們希望地方能夠理解我們這個戰備的需要我們對國際的戰備開闢我們絕對支持但是地方的聲音我們是精明一家但我們要聽聽地方的聲音能不能適合在那個地方做戰備跑道我們有很多替代的方案希望部長"},{"start":7679.091,"end":7706.213,"text":"你對剛剛講的話請聽地方的民意如果地方已經很明確的而且上次也表達了還有地方的諸侯對人民帶著地方的民意代表包含農人這一些持有良田的這一些我們的鄉親都一起來表達抗議都已經聽到了所以這個就是已經很肯定的事情"},{"start":7707.115,"end":7709.585,"text":"那參謀長來我想請教一下你的看法"},{"start":7711.8,"end":7736.267,"text":"報告也就空軍的立場也是我們會持續聽從民意然後也會持續去跟當地的居民溝通不用再持續因為這個就是模擬兩可的問題剛剛部長也講了如果以地方的民意也堅持了應該有配套跟做一個其他的一些配套的方案"},{"start":7736.987,"end":7754.373,"text":"這才是剛剛我們部長所講的嘛因為將來以後臺九縣的這個三路段新建正面跑道是包裹裡糖衣的毒藥因為什麼正面跑道的後續會有限建跟限高的問題"},{"start":7755.353,"end":7781.914,"text":"限制建設還有包含限高的問題造成限縮地方的經濟發展及農業的推動的發展這是會影響還有包含觀光所以這個就是已經很嚴重的問題了部長我們就是希望就剛剛委員所提的這些問題來跟地方來溝通有關這個您提到的限制的一些相關的議題讓民眾"},{"start":7785.363,"end":7804.621,"text":"臺東地區相關的民眾能夠了解這樣子那如果能夠有一個大家能夠相互理解那我們就能夠持續來推動因為其他的替代方案到現在為止是還沒有辦法找到其他替代方案所以我們才希望能夠持續來進行溝通那當然我剛剛已經講了"},{"start":7805.742,"end":7806.062,"text":"好不好 部長"},{"start":7832.368,"end":7852.029,"text":"我們也希望能夠兼顧這樣子的雙贏的一個局面只是希望讓這個如果以後要有一個說明會的時候的話那是希望能夠讓我希望責成近期內跟交通部公路總局來"},{"start":7853.971,"end":7875.12,"text":"到我的研究室來大家在一起研究方向方針不要以民對抗我們居民是一家人我們希望在地方有觀光產業的發展包含糧食儲存的一個地方它又是一個稻米的一個糧米的一個地方"},{"start":7876.02,"end":7903.792,"text":"又加上觀光所以這個就等等的讓地方造成能夠有經濟的發展包含他們產業的發展及生技的發展對我們老百姓來講是絕大的一個最大的注意不是因為我們要開闢上面跑道我不反對但是造成地方的發展跟觀光發展產業發展的話這不是你們要跟人民對抗嗎"},{"start":7904.532,"end":7932.83,"text":"所以這個就是我絕對反對在這個地方表達我的立場我也帶著我們台東鄉親的聲音絕對反對在那個地方你們應該有替代的方案以上那另外我特別講的防空系統台灣防空系統今天報告提出俄武戰爭和以哈的衝突的接近在以哈衝突以色列的防空系統發揮的攔截能力令人驚嘆"},{"start":7933.931,"end":7948.085,"text":"部長認為我國有辦法像以色列一樣的優秀防空系統能力嗎?第二個以色列的多層防空網讓它今年在四月的伊朗空襲中發揮了高達99%攔截力這當中包含了美國、英國、耶誕"},{"start":7954.977,"end":7956.057,"text":"我們先請空軍回答"},{"start":7984.738,"end":8010.436,"text":"報告委員,針對這個問題我們是都是從誠攔截,都是統一指揮管制的好,我們現在講,比較一下我們現在就是以色列雖然有強大的防空能力但在以卡衝突,乃面臨到防空飛彈不足的窘境以色列評估鐵穹防疫系統"},{"start":8010.896,"end":8012.637,"text":"所以今天有一個非常重要的國際期刊"},{"start":8029.582,"end":8056.06,"text":"外交政策刊出的指出我方擁有雄風飛彈的海豐部隊行動已被對岸掌握一旦開戰可能在短短的數秒內被牽媚第一個原因本席指起了我國的防空系統齊康宗指出被對岸掌握的是對海飛彈"},{"start":8057.591,"end":8076.412,"text":"但本席相信如果對海飛彈被掌握防空飛彈恐怕在中共的手裡這也不是秘密了。第二個請問一下部長這個國際知名期刊刊登的內容也是認知作戰嗎?"},{"start":8077.593,"end":8082.538,"text":"第二．如果對岸掌握是飛彈基地和機動飛彈車的動態．台灣會非常的危險．那刺蝟島難以發揮功能．國軍要怎麼樣的應對以上"},{"start":8092.29,"end":8112.221,"text":"這個部長來回答我想第一個就是說剛剛已經回答前面委員所詢問的就是說這個信機管理的一個重要性包括氣力偽裝跟這個引力還有對於無線電信號的一個管制所以我想就這個部分我們信機管理"},{"start":8114.502,"end":8137.209,"text":"會列為我們一個重要演練的一個項目之一那就這個部分我們也剛剛也提到我們會加強反情報跟反沾的一個作為來看看他這個在演練的過程當中他的氣力偽裝引力跟相關的這些訊息管理是不是有到位我想這個是一個那另外您提到的以色列航空系統大概分成就是說鐵雄跟大衛士投訴"},{"start":8138.149,"end":8147.094,"text":"大衛投石所這個部分屬於中層的那建設會站屬於遠層的那我們現在確實是有分成遠中近那至於這個數量的這個部分呢我們確實會"},{"start":8149.793,"end":8174.102,"text":"對於飛彈的增加是至關重要所以你看以色列這麼精良的飛彈他們都要增加到3倍到5倍部長有沒有考慮我們台灣我們國防的飛彈的增加的數量有沒有更精良的然後有沒有再增加的預算"},{"start":8174.818,"end":8192.91,"text":"所以我們持續會依作案需求來進行規劃因為這涉及到對外採購還有自主生產部分因為有一些是我們自主就可以生產的那就這個部分我們應該有規劃就是說比如說現在這個海空戰力特別提升計畫結束之後我們會再來持續再來增加好 謝謝謝謝黃仁委員部長請回"},{"start":8201.155,"end":8207.326,"text":"待會許曉欣委員諮詢完畢後休息5分鐘然後接下來我們請洪森漢委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8231.226,"end":8234.529,"text":"請顧部長跟中科院其實今天在質詢前我想也先跟兩位召委致意因為我們連續兩週那很快速的安排委員會到安排無人機的考察跟質詢這是大家非常關注的議題"},{"start":8256.288,"end":8281.121,"text":"那也請部長跟院長其實我其實在看了讀你們提供的報告裡面其實當然大家都這樣現在都很清楚知道無人機的重要性那尤其是在烏克蘭戰爭裡面其實烏克蘭確實是利用無人機去做到這個對不對稱戰力的補強那才有辦法能夠走到現在的以小博大的這個狀況"},{"start":8284.342,"end":8307.102,"text":"今年8月行政院其實核定了無人機產業園區的預算由中科院來負責園區的規劃跟設置看起來一個很重要的原則是所謂軍民協力這當然我們都認為是一個正確的方向尤其是中國的大疆無人機其實它當然早就有解放軍科技的扶植再加上"},{"start":8308.803,"end":8310.404,"text":"在今年的8月責成中科院去設置與運為無人機產業園區的時候"},{"start":8337.995,"end":8354.851,"text":"目前有沒有提到園區管理單位打算怎麼做的確當時在8月23號行政院決議由我們來規劃設計的時候同時也說未來營運由中科院但是獨立成立另外一個園區的管理機構"},{"start":8355.629,"end":8379.084,"text":"那園區管理機構你們現在打算因為我們現在在你們書面的資料裡面目前只有看到PCM的工程管理的規劃那去做這些建設性的規劃就是營造工程方面的管理但是對於園區的管理這個事情目前我們沒有看到在這裡面有更進一步的資訊或者說所謂的另一個單位是什麼民間單位嗎BOT嗎"},{"start":8380.945,"end":8402.307,"text":"他是要由中科院成立一個管理單位但是又獨立於中科院之外是 因為我們現在看到中科院裡面當然自己設了很多生產線但是我自己也好奇中科院自己有跟民間廠商尤其對於民間的廠商進行管理的經驗嗎因為我們上個禮拜考察的時候我們去看了有一個這個軍民通用中心"},{"start":8404.009,"end":8418.467,"text":"我現在想問像中科院的軍民通用中心現在面積是多少?然後有多少運員?那也包括這個有多少進駐的廠商?原區的面積大概17公頃"},{"start":8420.103,"end":8445.001,"text":"中科院的院員只有80人進駐的廠商總共19家對那現在這裡面當然我們看到這個中心裡面有所謂的廠商的生產線可是我們當然有點擔心說到底中科院有沒有管理產業園區的經驗尤其是未來假如是有上百家的民間廠商假如要進駐的話這個部分中科院有管理的能力嗎"},{"start":8446.243,"end":8475.474,"text":"我老實講其實我們自己對這一點也很懷疑你們很懷疑那你們打算怎麼辦你這樣講我們就擔心了因為他是在118年開始營運但是我們現在期待整個壓縮117年開始營運所以說這個問題我們也希望等進駐的廠商在我們明年PCM去訪商確定之後有哪些進駐的廠商院長你剛才在講你有沒有看到你右邊顧部長的臉都歪了"},{"start":8478.05,"end":8502.302,"text":"因為中科院真的從來沒有管理一個園區的經驗說實話我們還在但是現在你們已經被要求要承擔這個角色了我講實話就是我們在努力你們在努力那個院長我知道這是一個很大的重責大任你剛才講到說你們這裡面的人員只有80位就是說如果我給你們幾個參考的經驗"},{"start":8505.043,"end":8527.055,"text":"因為我們現在看到這個軍民通用中心它其實比較像是一個產業育成中心其實裡面沒有生產線沒有廠房跟我們現在預想的所謂無人機產業園區其實明顯是不太一樣的狀態這你們應該心裡很清楚那無人機本身其實它是一個高科技產品坦白說我覺得台灣並不是沒有管理高科技產業園區的經驗當然不是沒有"},{"start":8529.836,"end":8550.907,"text":"我們過去國科會包括這個這個園區管理局等等的我們都有這些相關的經驗可是確實今天大家是希望由中科院來管理很重要的原因是因為大家原本設想這是一個所謂跟軍民協力嘛對不對我們很難把這個單位去外包去BOT出去給另外的人來管這裡面涉及到也許很多軍事上面的機密所以我自己還是認為"},{"start":8551.747,"end":8574.282,"text":"要交由國防部或者是中科院來管我覺得這是正確的裡面有很多機敏的資訊你沒有辦法全面交給一個民間廠商來管我覺得這方向是正確但現在重點是到底怎麼樣能夠快速的讓中科院管理產業園區的經驗真的能夠長出來我想先看一下下面一張如果我們看一下科學園區管理局大家可以看一下"},{"start":8575.425,"end":8599.892,"text":"園區管理局他目前的員工是472位那進駐的廠商總共3個園區加起來進駐廠商1000多家其實如果我們仔細去看的話每人大概管理是10.8公頃包括每人其實協助就如果以管理人數來除的話每人是協助2.4家廠商坦白說你需要人你需要管理的經驗你需要錢那尤其包括我也要問部長因為"},{"start":8601.175,"end":8627.148,"text":"部長你的屬下剛剛講了實話說他也很懷疑自己有沒有管理的經驗部長你要不要講一下你對這個看法怎樣我認為就是要找有園區管理經驗的人然後跟他們進行交流之外然後讓這些有經驗的人能夠被中科院所招募進來然後進行這個園區的管理我們還有時間來做這些事情"},{"start":8627.808,"end":8655.788,"text":"其實時間並沒有很多部長你應該心裡很清楚因為我們把很多的時程也提前了所以我會督促中科院來盡快的來進行就是說就如同委員所講我們並不是沒有在臺灣並不是沒有這些管理這個園區經驗的人那我們針對這些有管理園區經驗的人我們要進行經驗的交流我們也要招募這樣的人才來負責這樣子的一個園區的管理"},{"start":8655.888,"end":8675.939,"text":"部長其實我覺得你講了很多的重點但我這邊還是想要說其實我們過去大概我們也去請教了像園區管理局就是這個國科會下的園區管理局他們只是也在講說其實就一個科學園區裡面當然前面有好幾個重要的管理的議題比方說第一個環境跟公安這裡面我們其實這幾年其實"},{"start":8676.619,"end":8691.608,"text":"台灣的科學園區發展是還不錯的但是過去我們也犯過錯但是現在也做得還不錯那包括燒傷跟審查尤其是審查端我認為在無人機的產業園區裡面大概這部分更重要因為會有很多機敏的部分其實你需要去做檢核"},{"start":8692.248,"end":8708.519,"text":"關於園區的安全管制這些大概都是一個科學園區或者是高科技的園區要進行管理的重要課題但我們坦白說在今天質詢前也詢問了中科院確實你們中科院跟我們反映的事情是你們對這些事情都相當的陌生"},{"start":8710.18,"end":8733.961,"text":"你們可能知道自己怎麼拉你們自己的生產線但對於我要可能要去面對數百個相關的廠商這件事情你們我自己我自己感覺你們也相當的陌生或者是戒慎恐懼好聽一點的話是戒慎恐懼所以我這邊還是希望我們透過這個質詢也希望顧部長能夠來督促第一個"},{"start":8735.253,"end":8741.309,"text":"中科院應該從現在開始就來找國科會包括他們的這個科學園區管理局"},{"start":8742.315,"end":8767.821,"text":"到底在前面建制的階段現在要做哪些的準備哪裡有相關的人才哪些議題哪些事情包括在前端尤其是廠商進駐前廠商規劃他到底要怎麼進駐他也需要時間他也要知道你的要求是什麼而不是啪一聲只是直接進來而已我覺得這些事情恐怕我自己是期待國防部趕快督促院長中科院"},{"start":8768.621,"end":8784.804,"text":"我們趕快把這些事情給工作這真的不是只有PCM工程管理的部分現在我們只寫了PCM工程管理我覺得是有點太輕誤也太小看接下來這整個大家非常非常看重的無人機的管理園區這部分希望部長我們應該是可以強化來督導應該沒問題吧"},{"start":8785.865,"end":8809.62,"text":"是,謝謝委員的提醒,我想我們就立即請中科院來跟這個管理科學園區的這個單位甚至也包括可能包括像經濟部,經濟部跟這個國科會趕快來請教那我自己是希望說能不能夠在三個月內有一些初步請教至少你們對這事情相對重要的掌握可以給我們一份初步的報告,我知道三個月可能沒有辦法"},{"start":8810.06,"end":8810.24,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":8840.993,"end":8843.975,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請顧部長請顧部長是 馬維好部長好部長我們今天設定的這個無人機的一個議題因為未來不管在我們所有的武器發展上面或者我們未來在很多的戰術運用上面無人機可能有舉足輕重的角色"},{"start":8866.63,"end":8894.386,"text":"那因為國防部在20年前就已經開始委託中科院做一些相關的科研發展有各類的無人機包括尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞鴛、騰雲、艦翔還有雄飛彈等等其實非常的多那它出估我們投入的研發費用至少百億以上那在國軍委託中科院生產目前使用的無人機"},{"start":8895.467,"end":8897.85,"text":"也花費了國防預算至少800億以上這個經費非常的龐大如果說包括研發跟現在使用生產的這個部分它已經快要接近千億元了可是我們在這個時候包括113年突然"},{"start":8917.671,"end":8946.73,"text":"我們用也不算突然啦112年大概就已經開始在規劃嘛就是說國防部建案採購6類的軍用商規無人機那其實過去中科院我剛剛提到的這些中科院過去在科研發展的各類堅真型無人機跟國軍現在跟無人機國家隊就是民間購置的這些無人機它的堅真功能其實基本上都是重複的"},{"start":8948.393,"end":8953.316,"text":"另外,美軍近期軍售兩款攻擊型的無人機也跟中科院研發出來的巡飛彈一型還有研發中的二型其實也很類似,不是嗎?現在目前是這樣嘛,對不對?"},{"start":8962.706,"end":8982.26,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們現在都是一個雙軌並行的策略就是說我們當然外購可以取得但是現在就是說包括美方也好他也是鼓勵我們就是說我們要建立自主的產能因為一旦有什麼狀況的時候我們的自主產能是很重要所以要雙軌來進行"},{"start":8984.501,"end":8995.184,"text":"我們中科院長期以來不管是在科研不管是在自製上面我剛剛提到將近千億的預算其實就是用在我們自己研發生產的啊那這個在需要的時候我們沒有辦法從外面採購進來的時候其實它就有自主性而且我剛剛特別提到其實它跟我們現在軍用商規我們跟國家對採購的這些其實它的重複性很高甚至"},{"start":9013.729,"end":9019.953,"text":"我們的規格都強過民間採購的這些部分所以我們不曉得而且我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎我們一直說不管飛機也好不管船艦也好甚至像這個無人機或者其他的部分我們不是一直在強調國防自主嗎可是我們現在顯然不是包括我們無人機國家隊有很多他們現在其實我們那幾家廠商他們本身有生產線嗎"},{"start":9042.506,"end":9045.65,"text":"他幾乎都是組裝線他也都是從國外買來的不管你是從以色列從其他國家這些地方買來然後來組裝可是他到底有沒有符合我們需求簡單來說在2022年的時候我們對國人很大聲的宣誓"},{"start":9061.468,"end":9078.202,"text":"就是說我們已經接近測試完成的很多很多的無人機的機型包括像瑞元二型他是以土耳其在烏克蘭戰爭中爆紅的這個旗手無人機作為參考那他也具備偵打一體的能力可以掛載國產對地跟反艦飛彈"},{"start":9081.505,"end":9090.631,"text":"那紅雀3也可以說做人臉辨識他有這樣的能力而且可以追蹤可以擊殺有自主執行任務的能力這個在2022年的時候就已經透過媒體告訴我們全體國人所以我們既然有這麼高的能量技術甚至都比現在的無人機國家隊還要好的時候為什麼我們大筆的預算用在跟他的使用性能"},{"start":9109.182,"end":9117.716,"text":"不見得那麼明顯的情況之下很多測試沒有過他是不是符合我們的作戰需求我們也不知道可是你已經研發這麼久甚至都已經測試通過的我們卻不用這個原因是什麼"},{"start":9124.222,"end":9133.706,"text":"我想研發的這個政策上面的一些調整是不是請中科院先做一個簡單的簡單說明就好了就是說你你比這些無人機國家對差在哪裡為什麼中科院也花了那麼多錢而且現在已經在生產使用的我們卻摒棄不用而要臨時再去編大筆的預算不管是從國外採購也好當然美國他有他的一定的量能還有他的技術存在"},{"start":9151.014,"end":9167.904,"text":"可是像我們無人機國家對這樣子的一個部分他到底比我們現在花那麼多錢民間的他到底有沒有投入什麼經費我們不曉得那他花的錢一定不會比中科院還多那他們對我們的優勢到底在哪裡"},{"start":9168.885,"end":9196.725,"text":"委員第一個就是中科院跟民間軍用軍規和軍用商規就是在軍規和商規的差別不要說軍規商規你就是你如果好用你現在都已經可以量產那個軍規或者軍用你當然是越好然後對我們的防衛還有我們的攻擊越有效的是對我們有幫助的啊你不是在幫其他的做設想其他的理由啊所以我們的差在哪裡好好好讓你說差在哪裡"},{"start":9198.246,"end":9212.969,"text":"我們讓軍用商規去鼓勵這些民間的廠商生產他的無人機的產線去鋪陳他的產線就是希望他們都能夠變成我們整個供應鏈的一環這樣我們的供應韌性才能夠建立"},{"start":9213.71,"end":9236.997,"text":"無人機國家隊裡面有原來中科院幫你們做研發的這些相關的廠商嗎?就是你的配合廠商,我剛剛念了很多省的那些部分,你不管尖兵、紅雀、鷹眼、瑞淵、騰雲、劍翔、巡飛彈等等,跟你配合的廠商裡面,這一次有沒有一家是在你的無人機國家隊裡面,有沒有?有,中光電。中光電,除了中光電其他都沒有?"},{"start":9238.239,"end":9255.854,"text":"其他目前所以其他的能量是怎麼樣你包括有做瑞淵還有藤雲現在漢翔的董事長也是這個小組的一個主席那他的總經理叫做馬萬鈞馬萬鈞以前也是我們中科院的他那時候研發藤雲他那時候我們去參訪的時候我們去考察的時候他告訴我們藤雲非常非常好而且還可以掛蛋未來還可以做什麼什麼樣的利用"},{"start":9264.961,"end":9290.171,"text":"那是從中科院到漢翔現在占總經理的職務的人那未來漢翔也會投入這個部分所以我想你今天一直在說大家已經投入我們高達將近千億的預算去做這些可是你顯然你的配合廠商並沒有在無人機國家隊裡面這是我們覺得很奇怪的地方他甚至他所有的規格都比較好好我現在請教一下我們建載型無人機"},{"start":9293.631,"end":9301.831,"text":"還有我們陸用偕征的無人機他們的規格有沒有比瑞園好"},{"start":9303.43,"end":9328.69,"text":"我想在請中科院回答之前我先說明一下因為我們現在根據現在相關烏克蘭的經驗我們還是在搞高低配的一個方式不是就全部都要採用非常昂貴的這種軍規的一個系統它顯示很多商規的這個部分只要生產大量的情況之下事實上也足以達到這個部隊的戰力建構的目的我只是先做這樣其他部分是不是先請"},{"start":9329.11,"end":9351.126,"text":"好 我們同意現在我們甚至買的商規根本就不便宜那我們在高一配我先把它講完因為我們有做了就從過去我們研發的這些無人機上面來看它有一些比較貴可是它的功能是不一樣比如說建載型無人機我們台灣的平均風力尤其在秋冬的時候它甚至高達"},{"start":9353.007,"end":9374.854,"text":"6、7級平均風力其實都是在6、7級可是我們的商櫃無人機全部都只是在6級以下為什麼瑞淵要達到8級它一定有它的原因它剛開始在用的時候一下子就摔掉一半以上它不斷的研發就是符合我們自己作戰的需求可是你現在商櫃裡面沒有一行是可以抗這樣的風力的"},{"start":9375.854,"end":9378.576,"text":"我們台灣周邊這麼大的風然後你沒有辦法去執行任務的時候那你買這樣子的無人機到底要做什麼這是第一點第二點就是我剛剛說的你可以高低配可是我們現在沒有看到高的部分就是軍規軍用的部分其實我們已經看到他的整個預算全部都被排"},{"start":9396.245,"end":9423.709,"text":"現在因為被排擠他根本沒有排進去你買的全部都是用商規的所以這個部分我們沒有辦法知道說到底到時候我們做什麼樣的防衛你做什麼樣而且全部都針尖的你都知道我的敵人在那裡我現在看過去我知道我的敵人在前面然後呢你至少你剛才你們之前做出來研發出來是可以偵打就是可以偵查也可以打擊的現在都沒有全部都是針尖型"},{"start":9424.269,"end":9442.313,"text":"我們用那麼多針尖型做什麼對 我們會有這種消耗型的攻擊型的這個無人機會出來這個給一點時間那另外當然提到了瑞恩2的運用它要抗八極風的理解是因為它是在海上做運用那有一些是屬於陸軍進程戰術的無人機的這個部分你現在買的不是你現在買的這六型"},{"start":9447.014,"end":9451.338,"text":"沒有一個包括艦載型無人機就是要用在海上的可是它並沒有抗八級風或者抗六級它就是六級以下所以它沒有辦法使用可是我們卻買了所以我們現在要提出來就是說你現在買的都是買商規的然後都是針尖型的完全沒有辦法攻擊我知道敵人在那裡我看到他要攻擊我的可是我對他一點辦法都沒有"},{"start":9472.114,"end":9490.635,"text":"這是我們只要特別提出來探討的就我們在預算的分配上面我們不是那麼多可是你應該要怎麼樣配置剛剛部長也提到了你要高低配嘛你應該可以有功能的你也要採購啊而且他是我們國家花很多錢下去去研發出來的而且你都已經測試通過了結果你不用"},{"start":9492.717,"end":9497.842,"text":"阿你去用這些沒有不用阿阿你目前沒有編錢阿因為在112年沒有在112年的時候已經告訴我們如果通過以後那時候是沈榮金副部長他結合所有的包括經濟部包括國科會包括中科院包括國防部這些單位大家一起共同去督導這樣子的一個無人機的一個團隊"},{"start":9516.279,"end":9528.604,"text":"所以我們已經用了很多時間在這裡我們接下來這個部分我請部長再去做全班的考量好不好也許你過去可能有的我們希望中科院的院長因為過去你來報建祥你來報其他的無人機的發展的時候在戰規師的時候其實你是怎麼說的你應該也要好好的讓我們現在的部長很清楚我們過去到現在無人機的過去現在跟未來"},{"start":9543.09,"end":9565.914,"text":"這個部分我們希望還可以有後面有一些討論的空間因為現在預算也剛在用而已那已經買的我們希望後來趕快把它補足不然我們現在看起來很危險那就這個部分我再請教的就是第二個我們在民雄園區我們中科院跟軍備局到底是什麼角色"},{"start":9568.598,"end":9570.06,"text":"中科院的強項是什麼?"},{"start":9577.503,"end":9600.01,"text":"中科院的強項當國家賦予中科院最大的任務希望中科院他做的是什麼而且我們還特別通過法律讓中科院法人化你不用透過政府採購法你可以運用更多的一個管道去吸收人才那是我們法人化的原因可是你今天中科院現在在無人機的園區你扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":9603.991,"end":9606.153,"text":"你是國科會嗎?你是經濟部嗎?你從來沒有管理過一個這樣的園區而且中科院買了第一個園區台體大嘉義的那個廢校的時候我們花了20幾億去買那個園區那時候是要做我們航太飛機還有引擎還有風動的一個測試場"},{"start":9625.151,"end":9632.074,"text":"那是為我們的航太發展要去做的一個園區所以中科院花錢買了你現在又編了60幾億未來要買這個土地以外還要蓋廠房、廠棚還要把它全部設置完成以後給所有的無人機公司然後進駐甚至我們是租給他而已我們為什麼為這些無人機的廠商做這麼多我現在只要知道我們中科院對於我們"},{"start":9653.301,"end":9665.328,"text":"國家你的任務是什麼告訴我們這樣好委員先跟你報告這個土地是現在這無人機產業園區的土地是屬於中科院的第二個就是這個68億多的預算你原來要做什麼你原來買台體大的廢校的這個園區20幾公頃你本來要做什麼"},{"start":9672.293,"end":9686.18,"text":"委員台體大那個廢校園區不是那是中科院買的就是現在的你原來現在目前有的那塊土地就是跟台體大買的也是中科院的就是中科院現在這塊我是幫你還原那塊土地的來源你當初買的時候我剛剛講過功能接下來我說我現在只要你告訴大家我們中科院你的強項是什麼你設置的目的是什麼"},{"start":9699.227,"end":9701.688,"text":"我問的是你中科院存在的目的是什麼AI算力中心還有測試規劃"},{"start":9720.888,"end":9741.916,"text":"我們台灣現在不是大家所有民間廠商都非常強嗎你中科院有在這一部分有特別強嗎你甚至還有很多的機密的預算是要去花在AI上面都是跟民間去採購耶所以你說你AI的那個任務是你中科院的任務我在這裡再提醒一次中科院當時法人化"},{"start":9743.877,"end":9764.654,"text":"因為中科院有很多必須要為國家做一些科研的項目希望我們與時俱進不管在武器的發展或者對我們防衛力量其實可以有更多的著墨所以花了那麼多錢給中科院結果你的錢可能把技術轉移給其他廠商中科院最重要的我們的強項是飛彈"},{"start":9767.762,"end":9787.373,"text":"我們的強項我們過去我們一直希望我們應該讓我們自己發展的更好所以你買那個園區當時對於封洞的設置或什麼其實你就是你現在要把它改成低速的封洞欸你現在以前是因為你沒有場地所以中科院請記住當時國家賦予給你而且給你從過去到現在這麼多的研發經費還有讓你要做的事情"},{"start":9794.717,"end":9810.266,"text":"是為我們國家的國防還有國家的安全去付出跟努力其他的事情該經濟部的該國科會的大家分工負責我相信部長一定也會認同因為過去他的夫人也是我們經濟部的部長當時在提這個的時候那時候的部長就是王部長"},{"start":9814.949,"end":9842.608,"text":"所以我們希望大家各司其職讓我們的國家更好你產業發展我們沒有意見你軍民合作我們也沒有意見可是你必須把你的角色扮演好因為不然會讓我們覺得說你用法人化的這樣子一個框架去做一些讓民間廠商或特定的民間廠商有獲利的機會好不好是 謝謝委員知道其他的我們希望透過有一些書面資料再提供給我們 謝謝"},{"start":9845.122,"end":9858.492,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員部長請回休政宣告待會賴世保委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘然後接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我想請那個我們顧立雄部長還有中科院請顧部長"},{"start":9879.538,"end":9901.737,"text":"區委員好部長好剛才呢馬委員有談到說呢中科院的專長應該要是飛檔其實我相當的認同從以前到現在不過呢我在上禮拜跟我們院長的這個質詢喔有點雞同鴨講似乎你也沒有聽懂我想要問你什麼那你回答的問題也不是我想要問的喔所以呢我詢問的是前端的粗製品但你跟我提的是後續的精煉"},{"start":9902.498,"end":9920.006,"text":"所以第一個我想要先再請教一下你還是堅持只要過濾酸胺有觸碰到任何零包含是零的化合物都會爆炸嗎不包含化合物不包含化合物嗎所以我當天你要回想喔我當天有講到元素或是黃磷這兩個字嗎上個禮拜"},{"start":9925.739,"end":9942.332,"text":"沒有沒有嘛所以其實我上個禮拜其實我要談的就是零化合物但我不曉得為什麼你一直聽到的感受到的就是零的元素我根本我再一次我回去重複查看了我沒有講零元素或者是黃零我只是提到了我們的檢測數據報告裡面因為他檢測出來的時候他沒有辦法"},{"start":9946.135,"end":9971.449,"text":"知道它是哪一種化合物所以它只能分離說裡面的零跟鈣各是多少那這個時候呢您就把我曲解成了我說的是零的元素就不斷的提到會爆炸這件事情但是您講的並不是我問你的問題你回答的也不是我在問你的問題喔那好那既然呢你現在也還原了我上個禮拜並沒有說零元素也沒有說黃零所以也沒有爆炸的問題"},{"start":9972.449,"end":10001.665,"text":"那呢上一次提出的這幾張齁等一下到時候會提供給你們SGS的報告就是在講這個化合物的組成可以看出其化合物的含量那就沒有所謂爆炸的這個問題所以呢今天我再拿出另外一個齁更完整的這個證據提供給大家來看2023年的6月我們所向美國所買的這個過濾酸胺也就是AP我想問請問粗製品裡面有沒有含TCP"},{"start":10003.554,"end":10030.313,"text":"有嘛那TCP是什麼?磷酸三鈣所以我直接提出這個報告出來給大家看當時我們所購買的這個AP裡面就是過濾酸胺它就不只是單純的過濾酸胺這個化學式它裡面還含了很多不同的化合物其中在TCP的這個部分就是剛剛您所說的磷酸三鈣裡面是有的"},{"start":10030.913,"end":10050.587,"text":"他呢說他的這個Maxima是0.01他說因為他送來的是小於0.01所以是合可的這是他他送給我們的報告的說法但我們今天要質疑的是其他的問題就是呢這個美方的資料很完整的提到購買的過濾酸胺裡面有做其他的添加"},{"start":10051.067,"end":10052.148,"text":"防凝結防止成為硬塊然後呢 不會無法使用 同意嗎"},{"start":10076.859,"end":10093.015,"text":"在我們加工精煉的過程中如果它凝結了是比較麻煩的是 因為如果你這個過濾酸胺吸收到空氣的水分的話那它會變成一顆一顆的硬塊那我們後續就沒有辦法再把它精煉去使用所以它加了這個TCP"},{"start":10094.577,"end":10117.667,"text":"但是呢我要問一下在我們中研院做非淡燃料測試的時候是否有內部的人員發現因為他的這個TCP他上來報告雖然他說他小於0.01但是他每一批貨的均勻度濃度純度不一樣所以導致有人發現這個有燃燒速度跟射程遭到抑制的情況有沒有人跟你反應過"},{"start":10118.487,"end":10146.114,"text":"委員跟你保證絕對沒有沒有人跟你反應過這件事情絕對沒有那會不會有可能是他沒有跟你反應但是有跟其他人反應我們不可能因為我們所有的製程我們那個評管是非常標準嚴格的您放心你覺得非常標準跟嚴格但是我們這裡收到的包含是我們中科院內部人員的吹哨者不少人都告訴我們說他們非常的擔憂所以既然你這麼有信心你回去再檢查一次那也沒問題吧"},{"start":10146.954,"end":10147.897,"text":"請說上禮拜您提供的那個SGS的報告有沒有"},{"start":10154.008,"end":10181.709,"text":"您注意到它的單位它用的是PPB注意一下那個B是B聯所以它就是十億分之一的單位所以您如果把它再換算成TCP的含量的話它是0.0017還小於原本原廠報告的十分之一我知道嘛它是小於沒有錯但我當時不是跟你談論說它的量的大跟小我上禮拜哪有跟你談它的量跟大跟小的問題"},{"start":10182.99,"end":10207.45,"text":"我沒有問的事情我沒有講的事情你不要每次一直塞到嘴巴裡面就像我沒有說是零元素也沒有說是黃零你一直用這個曲解我我這樣我沒有辦法接受那所以說我上禮拜跟這禮拜我都沒有跟你談說是因為這個所謂的他的單位PPP大於所謂的TCP我到剛剛為止我都沒有這樣講這是你個人的說法我要講的是他從寄來樣品也好"},{"start":10207.95,"end":10225.559,"text":"然後呢到他第二次抽樣是在道港表面的抽樣跟在大貨桶內的抽樣他的TCP他的比例是不一樣是不均勻的也就是說我們在這一批前期的粗製品的管理上面的品管做得不夠好我在談的是這件事情不是你剛剛說的PPB的問題請回應"},{"start":10228.58,"end":10244.248,"text":"委員他的抽樣三張第一個我上禮拜就已經直接看到這三個我就直接跟你懷疑說裡面的數據不正確我再強調一遍為什麼他的數據不正確為什麼我會直接懷疑他我們很少拿PPB來做"},{"start":10247.339,"end":10261.72,"text":"我告訴你他為什麼要這樣驗好不好因為他想要驗出說到底裡面有沒有含TCP嘛那因為呢我們其實平常是我們如果好院長我問你喔我們自己國內生產的過濾酸胺裡面有沒有含TCP"},{"start":10261.94,"end":10284.076,"text":"沒有 因為他沒有嘛所以他為了要去了解說驗這個的理由是為了要去了解說我們向美方所採購進來的過濾酸胺裡面是完全的過濾酸胺還是有額外添加了化合物所以才要去做這個檢驗的嘛所以跟你剛剛說的PPB跟你說的TCP是否小於0.001是沒有關聯的不是在問這個問題我是在問的是說我們來的這個粗製品的管理包含是檢驗我們有沒有做"},{"start":10291.861,"end":10319.623,"text":"有做了怎麼樣了很徹底而且很徹底那有沒有報告提供給我我們的報告沒有問題你們的禁料的檢驗是什麼時候做的2023年6月的這一批的禁料檢驗是什麼時候做的我們每一批禁料我們自己化學對我就問你20因為我現在拿到手上的是2023年6月所採購的這一批嘛所以我只問你這一批的我們內部的檢測是什麼時候做的結果是如何的"},{"start":10320.239,"end":10339.084,"text":"委員我只知道結果正常但時間我現在真的不知道你只知道結果正常那怎樣算正常你們的結果檢測說明一下好不好委員我跟你報告我們根本不會檢測TCP那個不是要檢測的那你剛剛不是跟我說你要檢測我們檢測的是它裡面的其他化合物的含量其他化合物哪些化合物"},{"start":10340.024,"end":10360.155,"text":"這我再拿檢測報告給我那你剛剛講的好像什麼都懂的樣子我現在問你說那檢測哪些化合物你又不知道所以我要問你說那既然你說他初製的時候初製品進來的時候檢測有檢測哪些內容那這些內容分別他得到的比例是多少那所以你才確認這些檢測是通過沒有問題的我現在問你的是請你具體針對這些部分回答我"},{"start":10368.397,"end":10384.875,"text":"我們所有的檢測都是最嚴格的這絕對沒有問題第二個我們的檢測不會檢測鈣和磷這是在我問的是你們沒有檢測TCP那為什麼我們現在會知道美國買來的東西有TCP這是美國原廠提供的沒有 是我們跟他要的"},{"start":10387.359,"end":10413.408,"text":"對吧我們有沒有跟他要求提供給我們每一批進貨他一定要提供他自己的檢驗證明然後過來之後我還要再檢驗一遍所以嘛那他既然提供給你的TCP上面是有的那你有沒有針對他裡面TCP出製品裡面每一批是否有均勻有符合我們的要求來提供檢測嘛然後你告訴我說你也沒有驗這個TCP那你上禮拜跟我胡說八道這麼多浪費大家這麼多時間是幹什麼呢"},{"start":10414.949,"end":10430.898,"text":"委員TCP在精煉的過程中間它根本因為它不容易水就直接在精煉過程就被排除掉了你確定它會排除掉我要拿到你最後精煉完的報告沒有問題啊那請問我再問你一次啊那你剛剛說檢驗是檢驗什麼你又說TCP沒有檢驗你又說你們都有檢驗那請問你們具體在6月的時候你檢測的內容是什麼2023年的6月進貨的這一批你們針對粗製品的檢測進行哪方面的檢測結果為何"},{"start":10444.685,"end":10466.715,"text":"委員我現在回答不出來現在回答不出來那你剛剛不是都說你都知道委員我知道它是合格的你知道它是合格但我要問你檢測了什麼合格啊那不然我什麼我都在這裡跟你說合格就好我要問的是你檢測了什麼東西而它合格了請問檢測了哪些項目請委員容許我之後再提供你檢測報告我現在真的說不出來"},{"start":10468.291,"end":10483.998,"text":"好吧那你現在說不出來我也沒有辦法繼續問只是呢我要再強調一次齁上個禮拜你對這件事情並沒有完全的了解我在問什麼然後呢你就一直談爆炸爆炸爆炸現在直接已經告訴你了他就是一個"},{"start":10485.835,"end":10490.479,"text":"話和物放在裡面因為從美國過來所以為了不要讓它結塊額外添加的話和物而在我們國內採購過濾酸胺的時候是不必添加這種話和物的那他放了這個也沒有爆炸的問題你也非常的清楚"},{"start":10502.29,"end":10530.628,"text":"所以在上禮拜我問你的時候你應該要很清楚我的意思如果你不是很確定你可以問我但是我沒有講零元素我也沒有講黃磷你就擅自把我的說法解讀為零元素接觸到所以會爆炸這對我們的質詢來說是覺得很荒謬的一件事情所以後續才有更多的吹哨者提供了完整的資料給我們告訴我們美國來的這一批裡面就是有放TCP就是有放"},{"start":10531.368,"end":10535.29,"text":"所以上禮拜你沒有回答完的這禮拜在這個地方所以拜託院長6月這個2023年6月這一批進貨之後何時檢測檢測了什麼檢測的結果是什麼請另外再給我一份報告既然你現在沒有辦法回答清楚可以嗎"},{"start":10550.495,"end":10576.334,"text":"好那我現在下一個問題了不好意思那那個我要問一下院長部長院長請回那個院長我想要問一下因為最近很多家長來陳情那就是關於學生跟這個權動法之間的關係那我想要問一下這個支援軍事情務在我們的法律規定上面實施辦法裡面包含哪些項目"},{"start":10579.148,"end":10586.279,"text":"他按照事情細則應該是有八項嘛有八項對明方法對對對明方法有哪八項"},{"start":10592.059,"end":10600.301,"text":"因為我時間也不太夠了我直接講就是其實包含說搶收軍用機場然後你要去監視報告敵軍的空降飛彈襲擊的情形你要對空監視報告敵機的動向還要幫忙裝卸運輸軍品比如說可能子彈等等的對空監視及報告敵機動態等等的"},{"start":10616.326,"end":10619.69,"text":"部長你覺得學生適合去協助這些勤務嗎學生不會從事這些勤務也沒有規範因為他這是不會沒有規範學生要從事這樣的勤務"},{"start":10628.942,"end":10654.242,"text":"沒有但你在民防法第二條裡面有講到說支援軍事勤務嗎?他是規範所有的民防團隊以民防總隊為主嗎?並不是學生嗎?那學生有沒有被包含在裡面?沒有為什麼沒有被包含在裡面?學生是在學生在底下的這個邊組那他們要做什麼呢?他們就是在守護校園的安全守護校園的安全裡面民防法裡面沒有寫守護校園安全這一條"},{"start":10655.223,"end":10669.186,"text":"根據民法法規範在教育訓練當中要如何自救互救的訓練裡面沒有寫啊民防法裡面寫到的只有學生編組而已他並沒有寫說不需要參與軍事的支援"},{"start":10670.956,"end":10686.801,"text":"這個如果你要論的話是因為他有一個相關跟委員報告如同委員所說您慢慢施行細則他第三條有說到八項支援軍事勤務的情形"},{"start":10687.361,"end":10695.766,"text":"但是他除了民防法適應系統他有另外一個執法去規範民防團隊怎麼運作他這個民防團隊的編組訓練演習服勤有一個辦法你也都很了解第43條裡面有說到就是說我們在支援軍事勤務的那個民防團隊指責是民防總隊那民防總隊他其實就是縣府"},{"start":10709.874,"end":10716.516,"text":"縣府的一些工作人員那學生被編在編組裡面的施行辦法在哪裡他有另外一個辦法在哪裡民防法第5條有說要訂一個學校防護團的辦法對 這個學校防護團的施行辦法在哪裡對 他學校防護的辦法他第8條有講到說學校這個防護團在服勤的時候有個範圍有5點那他大概就是比如說協助民防團隊擔任比如說空襲來了又有空襲對 就是幫忙報告一下"},{"start":10737.401,"end":10740.823,"text":"協助民防團隊擔任空襲防護救護消防等工作第二點是協助政府機關擔任宣導的工作第三點協助醫院"},{"start":10761.753,"end":10763.697,"text":"軍需物資生產工作可能會包含哪一些項目?"},{"start":10775.176,"end":10791.083,"text":"這一個軍需物資在經濟部有一個重要物資調查辦法,裡面寫的有10類,大概就是一些比較一般性的物資"},{"start":10792.984,"end":10807.817,"text":"我目前了解的比如說這個紡織品那個也算紡織品喔對對對它有10類你繼續把那5項念完你把那5項念完第5個是協助軍事警察單位擔任交通管制疏導等工作它是比較勤務性的"},{"start":10808.097,"end":10809.198,"text":"對,這五個看起來都是情務性"},{"start":10828.76,"end":10843.036,"text":"所以呢我還是覺得學生不太適合在參與在這些民防團隊的編組之中不曉得最後再問一下不曉得部長認為學生在這個民防法裡面要繼續維持的理由是什麼"},{"start":10843.677,"end":10844.178,"text":"另外我最後一個建議"},{"start":10858.715,"end":10858.735,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":10884.455,"end":10887.097,"text":"有請國防部的顧部長如果問到相關的問題﹖其他長官可以來幫忙"},{"start":10912.142,"end":10916.383,"text":"國防部長,今天講無人機,請問你知不知道無人機有兩種,一個叫有線,一個無線,你知道嗎?有線,無線,我的理解是"},{"start":10935.743,"end":10940.046,"text":"有限無限來有限的無人機烏克蘭坐的一公里大陸坐的十公里金門馬祖最近不到十公里所以干擾槍啊不好了干擾槍是打無限的對吧"},{"start":10963.075,"end":10964.216,"text":"報告委員沒有錯在俄烏戰場上面的確也發現到俄羅斯使用了這個有限的無人機但是基本上"},{"start":10983.771,"end":11004.41,"text":"在運用上面有限無限它還是有它的一些優缺點比如說有限的那它的這個限控它基本上可能它的滯空時間可以長達數小時那但是相對的它的有限的高度和距離對它也產生一個限制那無限的部分基本上我們對它來說沒有錯干擾可能就是所謂的硬殺"},{"start":11009.995,"end":11010.515,"text":"回答一下"},{"start":11035.805,"end":11050.024,"text":"無限的我們用石頭丟不是?我們現在已經完成了相關的應處程序也規劃建制反制系統那用槍打要訓練嘛有沒有非法訓練你告訴我各兵種有沒有"},{"start":11051.889,"end":11059.491,"text":"陸軍報告,飛靶目前在我們的訓練項目沒有啦,我查過就沒有了欸,奇怪咧,如果它飛過來是有限的你怎麼樣,你不能用干擾槍,干擾槍是無限的你只能用射靶,用槍來打結果沒有訓練,還是要怎樣啊啊,就中共的無人機來了,做得來喔大家看這樣,眼睛看這樣就好了"},{"start":11081.278,"end":11108.957,"text":"是這樣子喔?長官你要回答一下請問你是哪一位?我是陸軍參謀長陳建義陸軍參謀長?跟委員報告在平時跟暫時的考慮還是有所區別平時我們要考慮它設計和相關背景的安全因素可是那這個時候當然限制會比較多可是如果在暫時的話它是一個對我有敵意進行的無人機我們的各項的防空武器和地面的火炮就可以形成火炮"},{"start":11109.557,"end":11111.878,"text":"國防部相關的兵種沒有對非法做訓練"},{"start":11128.635,"end":11133.738,"text":"所以對於中共的有限無人機等於是束手無策"},{"start":11160.496,"end":11179.205,"text":"阿你可以設幾公里嗎?你告訴我可以設幾公里?散彈可以設幾公里?散彈就是因為它的距離有限可以設幾公里?高度阿?大概100公尺左右100公尺阿它無人機飛那麼低阿?因為有限的話它的高度真的高不了大概一般可以到多少?"},{"start":11180.988,"end":11195.884,"text":"解放軍的這個飛10公里他能夠到多少高度我真的沒有超過一百啦你去看嘛一百公尺很短的一百公尺很短的所以跟委員報告我們操場一個操場就250啦所以跟委員報告看得到 現在看得到"},{"start":11198.828,"end":11199.268,"text":"請教部長啦 這個部長可以拍板啦"},{"start":11213.291,"end":11239.432,"text":"你要不要下令我們陸軍或者什麼軍都好所有的兵種要做非法訓練可以嗎?他們現在都沒有欸你不是部長我簽名部長上禮拜一的展示的時候上禮拜一委員會的考察的時候因為委員沒有參加上禮拜一委員會的考察的時候我們就已經把那個涉及測試的影片跟參與考察的委員都播放過了那是非常有效的涉及"},{"start":11240.205,"end":11248.73,"text":"不是啦,你說我回答你沒有回答我問題,所以你不是部長啊來,部長回答一下你要不要下令做我們的非法訓練啊,可不可以啊不然怎麼辦呢委員的指教我會下去跟各聯產來這個研議一下,好不好有這麼困難嗎來,我們來看齁,來這個,我們說我們的艦翔反輻射無人機啊,或者攻擊無人機啊好,發展度發展這樣齁"},{"start":11270.441,"end":11272.082,"text":"美方侵賴然後呢 要貼牌跟我們要設計圖貼牌啊 輸出美方貼我們的麥顧立雄部長說 樂見其成欸 你們說個本頂的吼我們的建想這麼棒可以讓美方貼我們的牌 就貼他的牌啦吼會不會到時候用麥回來給我們吶"},{"start":11293.626,"end":11300.271,"text":"現在的合作案裡面沒有這樣子的規劃目前的合作案目前正在進行的合作案他有貼牌不是嗎還沒有到這個程度我們的顧部長說樂見其成我們的消息這樣講我們期待可以樂見其成他們貼牌我們期待可以往這個方向發展我們期待可以往這個方向樂見美國貼他的牌用我們的東西是不是部長你說這個"},{"start":11317.084,"end":11332.598,"text":"我沒有特定哪一個無人機我現在只是在說我們希望達成一個國際供應鏈裡面的一環我想主要是在做產業分工這樣的一個說明不是在特別的指定哪一個項目或哪一個那個"},{"start":11333.715,"end":11344.004,"text":"因為你那時候講這個話是針對無人機因為後來這個標題就一直在拉到這個地方去那我講話的一個重點應該是在說我們要進入這個美國為主導的這個國際供應鏈裡面的一環好 這個我替你補充啦你是律師比較精準你是不是講的就是針對非紅色供應鏈我們join進來"},{"start":11362.08,"end":11367.645,"text":"歡迎美國拿我們的所有的軍工我們的中科院發展出來的東西歡迎美國推牌這樣講對吧?我這樣講對吧?可以嗎?"},{"start":11375.816,"end":11380.798,"text":"委員不是說歡迎他貼牌是我們希望能夠在這個國防供應鏈我們希望在這個國防供應鏈裡面扮演相當的角色然後彼此結財彼此結財"},{"start":11392.922,"end":11402.685,"text":"我不認為是這樣的一個講法我們成為供應鏈裡面的一環然後我們有相關的強項那成為這個供應鏈裡面的一環你知道供應鏈的意思嗎Value chain啊這個supply chain啊這裡面就我做製造我做設計Marketing美國來做他貼牌他去賣這個有什麼好啊這個東西有什麼不對呢從企業的經營角度來講OK啊有什麼不好呢這有什麼不好"},{"start":11422.672,"end":11429.156,"text":"我沒有辦法很清楚的理解您講的所謂貼牌這兩個字因為媒體在用貼牌這兩個字貼牌就是那我講具體一點我們台灣的中科院設計製造包括研發設計研發製造美國做Marketing這樣可以嗎做行銷這樣可以嗎"},{"start":11445.207,"end":11449.251,"text":"可以,可以嘛,行銷裡面就包括貼牌,貼牌是比較清醒的道理,就是brand,brand,branding,品牌,品牌掛一個,到時候沒等於USA喔,裡面東西我們的喔"},{"start":11463.109,"end":11476.379,"text":"只是我是懷疑啦齁我不知道來來來中科院長回答一下我們的意思應該是我們可以擔任產品的供應商原件供應商或者是我們來共同開發或者我們被授權等等這些都是相關的可能的機會嘛請問請問無人機最關鍵的技術是什麼來院長講這個問題內無人機最關鍵的技術對我來講的話對"},{"start":11488.308,"end":11515.334,"text":"就是他第一個他要能完全無人把人力的操縱降到最低第二個逆中和噪音降低照相那個最重要不是嗎這個是選配這個是選配這個我們可以自己做嗎我們技術是不是成熟的我們今天早上有答詢過我現在只要把某一個技術等到那個機器到了我們克服以後的確我們是有這個機會的"},{"start":11516.513,"end":11517.274,"text":"接下來我們請林益君召委上台質詢"},{"start":11548.55,"end":11551.132,"text":"請國防部部長是 林委員好"},{"start":11559.485,"end":11577.691,"text":"部長你知道國防部所屬的軍備局預計要在114年度編列一筆高達68億5900萬的預算聽說這個未來要準備捐給中科院要在嘉義縣民雄蓋一個所謂推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發計劃對不對"},{"start":11580.572,"end":11609.714,"text":"那68我了解是公共預算編列不是我們是國安會那個因為行政院核定那等一下等一下因為時間時間會不夠那我先請問一下我就問什麼你們就答什麼就好了那請問部長那未來這一個無人機產業園區除了一部分是中科院自己要當作無人機的生產基地之外還有沒有其他功能"},{"start":11611.687,"end":11635.544,"text":"現在有分成西側跟東側那這個詳細的部分是不是請中院簡單回答研發生產製造都在這裡面它就是一個產業的生態系那所以照這樣看來的話這一個園區的目的就是要把軍用無人機的產業鏈從上游下游全部都集中在一起形成一個產業的聚落對吧"},{"start":11636.713,"end":11641.76,"text":"不只是軍用無人機是應該是所有的無人機全部都會在那個地方對不對好那問題來了那部長那你有沒有覺得說把雞蛋同樣都放在一個籃子裡面的問題呢因為我現在擔心的就是說像我們現在跟對岸中共這樣"},{"start":11652.674,"end":11670.006,"text":"知道我們台灣有一個那麼重要那麼跟國家安全國防自主有關的產業都聚集在那個地方了然後我擔心的是萬一兩岸真的要開戰了發生了事情時候的時候那中國是不是就只要往民雄航太曁無人機產業園區那邊丟幾顆飛彈只要打中一發那我們台灣的無人機的產能恐怕真的不知道要下降多少了那部長你不會擔心嗎"},{"start":11680.349,"end":11709.415,"text":"委員這個整個園區總共是50幾公頃那當然我們在就剛剛也有委員質詢我們在設計規劃和施工的時候我們會考慮到未來它的整體防空的部分好啦沒關係啦114年的預算反正還沒審嘛未來我們還是有時間一起來慢慢的共同來思考這個問題總之本席理解未來在這一個民雄航太曁無人機的產業園區是不是就是會像一個無人機版的科技園區呢"},{"start":11711.784,"end":11713.485,"text":"就是說我現在的問題就是推動產業的發展這個職責不是應該是經濟部的事情嗎?怎麼會叫國防部來做呢?怎麼會叫中科院來負責推動產業發展的開發案呢?"},{"start":11727.235,"end":11748.662,"text":"我想這個部分當然主要是說因為中科院有西側跟東側兩塊基地那西側的基地部分當然就現在的規劃當然就是說由中科院來做這個開發的一個工作那我想我們後續的部分也會成立一個專案編組"},{"start":11749.682,"end":11755.469,"text":"那我請問部長這個是真的是你們國防部跟中科院出於自願的嗎是真的是你們想要開發的計畫嗎還是因為負責產業開發還有推動產業發展的經濟部和國安會沒有錢所以逼我們有錢的國防部來當爐主啊亦要你們國防部吞下去來編的這個預算呢"},{"start":11769.636,"end":11774.897,"text":"委員這個預算您可能有一點誤會它是從行政院的公共建設預算專案撥出來給國防部來執行的這就是我後面要問的問題就是我認為這肯定是行政院的陰謀嘛它為了要把這個協助民間的推動無人機的產業發展的目的冠上了打造國防自主的字眼然後讓我們國防部可以吞下這一筆的預算企圖來模糊整個焦點"},{"start":11795.023,"end":11811.179,"text":"那大家不敢隨便動這筆預算啊不然我們就會被批評說是反對國防自主然後被扣上親中的大帽子啊所以因為我覺得很奇怪就是中科院明明就是負責研發的嘛怎麼會叫你們去發展一個管理的這種產業園區呢"},{"start":11813.061,"end":11813.862,"text":"管理科學園區不是就是國科會的事情嗎?管理產業園區不是就是經濟部的業務執掌嗎?"},{"start":11828.194,"end":11846.52,"text":"但是中科院在這個部分包括規劃設置低速轟動這些檢測儀器設備還有這個無人機的AI模擬及算力中心它有它的專業所以在這個部分可以協助廠商在進行這些有關這個無人機這個一些工性能的設計測試這些還有這些開發的這個部分我們可以來協助來進行這樣的一個驗證"},{"start":11855.243,"end":11878.388,"text":"所以中科院在這個部分有這個樣子的一個強項那當然前面的委員也提到了說中科院可能在管理的經驗上面會有所缺乏那這個部分我們會跟國科會有管理園區的這個經驗的人來做經驗交流那也招募這個部分的人才那這樣子雙方面結合我想會快速的來落實我們無人機自主生產"},{"start":11879.188,"end":11902.09,"text":"的一個政策或者甚至打入國際供應鏈裡面一環這樣子的一個目標這樣問題也就來了中科院你如果有人力把廠房都蓋好那請問部長你覺得中科院他們有人力和多餘的人力再去營運營運這個民雄無人機嗎一定沒有嗎到最後是不是會VOT呢那你們會覺得到最後你們的方式是不是會用VOT呢"},{"start":11902.23,"end":11908.415,"text":"我想這個另外當然要增加相關的人力然後剛剛也提到他們會另外在成立一個單位這個"},{"start":11912.194,"end":11936.313,"text":"委員這個跟您報告就是像剛剛有委員會質詢提到的所以我們會向國科會還有經濟部去請教相關的規劃然後後面我們會在117年之前把這個整個管理辦法做出來但是我要跟委員強調一點當時說叫中科院管理這個園區就是要成立一個獨立於中科院之外的單位來管理而不是由中科院直接管理"},{"start":11937.298,"end":11956.218,"text":"好 所以我剛才有看你們的內容是民雄西側的基地是經濟部配合嘛 對不對但是這表示你應該還是你們負責營運嘛現在以後未來的負責營運是誰負責啊是經濟部嗎還是你們呢就是成立一個獨立於中科院之外的單位但是要由中科院來協助成立這個單位來負責營運"},{"start":11958.38,"end":11975.673,"text":"另外跟委員報告就是說為什麼會整個這個園區的規劃由中科院來設計那是因為只有中科院有整個無人機產線的規劃設計和實際建造的能力所以我們可以提供給各廠商怎麼去鋪陳他產線的這樣的經驗"},{"start":11978.444,"end":11978.624,"text":"委員在108年中科院"},{"start":11998.644,"end":12018.333,"text":"向國防部成構了就有長波用的這一塊營地的時候當時原本就準備要來發展航太的相關產業那後來我們也準備把我們的整個無人機的部分也建設在這一塊區域只是因為我們自己本身的預算不夠所以東側中科院"},{"start":12019.013,"end":12033.513,"text":"奉董事會同意只投入了11.1億那西側部分空在那所以為了加速整個園區的建置行政院才會在原本的國防預算額度之外另外用公共建設預算去增付68億多來協助西側的開發"},{"start":12037.694,"end":12061.895,"text":"好啦就不為難你們了現在就是還有一個問題就是產業政策要促進發展當然這個是利益良善啦但是交給中科院你們這是研發單位嘛所以萬一你們以後委外經營我比較擔心的是萬一園區有事情的時候那以後萬一發生了一些事情請問這個我們立委要怎麼監督啊政府要怎麼追究責任啊這個你們有想到嗎"},{"start":12064.8,"end":12086.878,"text":"你們有做這樣的規劃嗎?就是說萬一這個園區以後有事情,廠房蓋完啊,如果委外經營啊,還是說是你們是誰要負責這個事情呢?就是說以後我們立委要怎麼監督你們呢?還有政府要怎麼追究這些責任呢?委員您剛剛也知道說我們三個月之內會提供一部未來管理的初步規劃報告嘛,對不對?所以三個月內會嗎?我也會把您剛剛的問題列到這個規劃報告裡面,因為我之前也還沒想。抱歉。那你就三個月內齁,OK,好。"},{"start":12094.224,"end":12094.364,"text":"要對漢翔計法"},{"start":12119.966,"end":12125.652,"text":"有嘛那這個是國防部的委託案那國防部對中科院會不會有罰款呢?也會有那我想請教一下是國防部罰中科院的錢比較多還是中科院罰漢祥的錢比較多呢?第一個就是"},{"start":12138.413,"end":12160.584,"text":"我們罰漢祥現在漢祥也會很努力的找各種理由如果他能夠拿到美國原廠給他的就是不可抗力因素的證明的話其實按合約我們就罰不到他那第二個就是國防部就是空軍委託我們做這個案子空軍最後會罰我多少我現在也不能說誰多會誰少我真的不太清楚"},{"start":12161.96,"end":12184.386,"text":"如果是漢祥要繳的罰款比中科院的多那可能是代表你們中科院監照不力啊所以我現在還有一個問題就是說部長你前陣子漢祥不是有一個員工嗎然後在IG上面公開我們ADF和AJT的敏感的資料然後被法辦嘛那這個案子漢祥也是因為違反合約的保密的條款被中科院罰款100萬那這個罰款中科院會不會繳回國防部呢"},{"start":12188.612,"end":12194.429,"text":"包括不會因為按照設置條例因為我是合約甲方所以按照合約的話他的罰款是繳給我"},{"start":12195.863,"end":12218.611,"text":"那就奇怪了 上面兩個高校的案子都是高校級的合約嘛 漢翔延遲交機給中科院 中科院要依照合約交款給國防部嘛 對不對但是漢翔涉及洩漏機密 但是中科院卻不用交款給國防部 那不會很奇怪嗎剛剛中科院講的應該是兩個 一個是他中科院跟漢翔的罰款"},{"start":12219.832,"end":12226.111,"text":"這個是他對因為洩密的就是只有中科院嘛到中科院而已對不對中科院是不可能再繳回國防部的嘛"},{"start":12228.959,"end":12253.499,"text":"還有漢祥給我的延遲交機的罰款也是在中科院對 也是沒有繳回國防部是嗎是 對 但是空軍會針對但是是國防部付錢的啊為什麼什麼為什麼都是不會繳回現在就更奇怪我先來問一個機密機密外洩好了機密外洩國防部是建案的受影響人欸但是受害者是國防部欸但中科院你只是一個間接的然後你就變成受益人了這樣會不會覺得怪怪的啊"},{"start":12255.748,"end":12269.975,"text":"委員這不是受益人的部分因為在整個合約是我跟漢祥的合約關係跟國防部無關國防部跟我的關係是委制給我我再把委制的部分一部分是我的一部分是漢祥的"},{"start":12270.725,"end":12271.746,"text":"主席我再一下"},{"start":12287.754,"end":12292.477,"text":"再一分鐘這樣那個部長我們還記得兩個禮拜之前那個雷神的預收款的問題嘛那現在的話就305億的預收款的有退還給我們嘛繳還國庫嘛但是繳還國庫的話就有一些貓膩啊這些錢現在是退到哪裡去呢是退到中央政府退到國防部退到空軍還是退到中科院呢"},{"start":12314.396,"end":12332.24,"text":"我想最後當然是會繳回國庫那相關這個過程當中是先繳回到哪一個這個要跟美方協調但是最後還是會完成結會之後會完成繳回國庫的一個作業所以現在還沒有協調嗎 對不對現在還不知道嘛現在近期之內就會有就會緩緩了"},{"start":12336.001,"end":12357.383,"text":"好 那我就暫時先問到這邊等整個看到底是退還到哪裡我們再最後一定是回國庫這已經是確定的一個事情這個我們跟主計總處已經這個完成了現在只是說他有一個流程那最後一定是會回來之後一定是繳回國庫"},{"start":12359.38,"end":12365.652,"text":"好那我在如果是這樣的話繳回國庫的時候那305億裡面有沒有包含美國政府跟我們說的4.4的兩項服務費"},{"start":12368.933,"end":12369.974,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":12399.014,"end":12418.154,"text":"這個我們可能要了解一下吧我想現在退回我們的這個款項可以跟委員報告的是他退回我們的款項比他原來初報的金額還要高那所以最後退回的金額當然實際等到退回來以後結會以後我們再來做一個跟委員做一個報告所以有沒有包含是4.4%的"},{"start":12420.336,"end":12447.872,"text":"沒有現在就是說確定全部都是雷神公司的預售款那這個部分那因為涉及多個國家那全部都是用預售款的方式來退還那這個部分跟委員報告所以都是屬於預售現在外面還有媒體講說什麼互糧一次互糧餅沒有這我們察覺沒有這回事沒有這回事這個可能也要也要闢謠一下沒有這回事沒有沒有什麼因為這13.5億的真的是也是蠻高的OK"},{"start":12450.113,"end":12450.553,"text":"好那就這樣謝謝"},{"start":12471.467,"end":12496.202,"text":"因為剛剛有提到說在三個月內中科院要提出那個相關的經營管理的報告我們希望在裡面也把利弊得失還有我們所有的來龍去脈其實也把它提出來好不好因為我想這個工作國防預算很有限的情況之下它應該怎麼樣用到位而且讓大家各施其職如果我們覺得中科院是最好的它好在哪裡應該讓我們全體的委員也知道比較好"},{"start":12500.444,"end":12505.326,"text":"這個部分也麻煩可以特別納入謝謝部長這個沒有問題吧好謝謝不好意思我們再再演一下多演一下齁因為我們現在可以先請那個中嘉賓委員這樣上台諮詢"},{"start":12534.934,"end":12543.667,"text":"太熱門了謝謝主席 謝謝部長不好意思我很快那直接部長才上啦那我就直接跟部長請教今天有關於無人機的議題請秀簡報"},{"start":12547.09,"end":12569.84,"text":"好部長 那麼我們軍工產業自主需要有完備的供應鏈那產線的建立很重要一點就是取決訂單的市場規模我先用以離岸風機來看離岸風機啊 你看2021我們水壓機組跟塔架2023有包括機艙跟變壓器包括海事工程船到第三階段我們就有齒輪箱等等等這是逐步的你認為這個是國產化的必經過程同意嗎"},{"start":12572.561,"end":12593.311,"text":"是好那接下來我們看國機國造跟國艦國造一樣國機國造我們永英高加機66架包括電氣啦飛控啦發電啦航電啦這逐步要去移轉到國內那麼國艦國造部分呢比較難的是潛艦載台我們自己做那戰鬥管理系統跟壓力殼等等這些我們都試圖的要由本國廠商來生產請問這是不是我們的目標"},{"start":12595.151,"end":12618.371,"text":"您說戰鬥管理系統不是 我說包括這些除了載台之後我們也希望其他的部分有能力包括壓力殼等等這是我們的目標嗎我們現在當然是希望不管在各方面的這個光制組的自治率能夠提升嗎是的 好那我們來看一下最近我們要進M1A2坦克是不是這樣好 那我們有辦法自己造一輛M1A2嗎"},{"start":12621.203,"end":12643.718,"text":"很困難嘛但是我們看到一個新聞外國網友看到要賣給我們的M1A2居然在國外美國有一個科博文什麼是科博文變形金剛它是一個拖板車有沒有看過這個拖板車你認為我們本國有沒有能力因為戰車60噸的戰車主力戰車它需要一定能量的拖板車這個國內有產製能力嗎?目前沒有沒有能力研發嗎?"},{"start":12648.257,"end":12672.804,"text":"有沒有能力言嗎?報告委員目前這個拖運的拖板車我們要進口嗎?我們國家的低板的我們民間的低板車包含它在改正速度還是有的低板車對,低板的可以嗎?現在就有現在就有,能夠承載M1A2主力戰車可以承載M1A2戰車,是的所以目前我們只需要跟美國買戰車不需要跟它連拖板車一起建我們有在這次的向量裡面採購拖板車跟拖戰車國產的?美國的"},{"start":12675.865,"end":12691.02,"text":"那我們美國的買了我們國產的以後是不是接續由國產的來接體我是說我們國內自己的民間的運輸公司有這樣的能量所以我們不見得需要再自行來生產我們可以跟他做這個更足夠"},{"start":12692.741,"end":12713.38,"text":"主任好很好來那個部長為什麼會這樣子因為拖板車他除了軍需用途平常也可以使用美國的M911拖車平常他們就用來拖伐木啦台灣當然沒有伐木業啦我要說的就是說我們的軍需產業除了主要的武器裝備之外其他的周邊配備也是一個我們軍需產業力當中一個重要部門您同意嗎"},{"start":12716.472,"end":12718.414,"text":"無人機目前你認為我國全部要自製最困難的是哪個部分無人機"},{"start":12739.223,"end":12747.071,"text":"我想因為主要是中國他現在站在全球的這一個市佔率很高對大疆他是有量化他是"},{"start":12749.35,"end":12769.883,"text":"主要是便宜不是技術難度真的無人機不是高技術難度它只是量產後它的成本最低而無人機是需要大量生產才有優勢的但是其中一個光電頭目前是台灣不是沒有能力研發是因為我們的訂單太少國內廠商他覺得做這個不划算你們乾脆外國自己買請問你所瞭解是不是這樣子"},{"start":12771.203,"end":12780.819,"text":"這個部分是是沒有做嗎?這個現在都是由我們自己來做組裝那光念求我們國內有辦法自治嗎?沒有辦法全部自治有沒有能力自治?"},{"start":12781.857,"end":12800.623,"text":"我今天早上有答過類似的問題一年之內我們可以克服是的我現在要說的說不是技術門檻達不到是量產規模不具備我們台灣的廠商很厲害你叫他做樣品給你沒有問題但你叫他生產呢對不起他要做500萬你外面買50萬請問你要跟外面買還是要自己做"},{"start":12801.567,"end":12823.8,"text":"就是這個問題,所以我們的軍需產業要自製呢,其實不是只有考量技術門檻,不是技術門檻達不到,而是市場規模達不到,往下看。以這個舉例,Gogoro,Gogoro難道這些東西,進口的電路板,控制器,馬達,台灣不能做嗎?可以。那為什麼Gogoro這個電動車,我們交通部發現問題,要它百分之百國產,它還需要去中國買這些零配件?"},{"start":12825.837,"end":12826.157,"text":"這是電動三輪車?一種電動的"},{"start":12850.356,"end":12871.164,"text":"其實在展現的就是說我們的軍需配備不是只有武器本體它的載台它的配件其實都是考量在內像這種這樣的一個設備它具備有暫時的二列天后的運載能力也具有平時的都會裡面的商運能力這樣的一個設計台灣能不能做到部長你覺得台灣有沒有能力做出來下一頁下一頁"},{"start":12873.749,"end":12890.269,"text":"你認為這樣的電動三輪車我在暗示什麼未來的無人機不是步兵背著無人機上戰場阿他的後勤移動裝配維修充電都需要這樣的一個後勤補給車部長你覺得這樣的一個類似無人機的裝載後勤補給車台灣有沒有能力製作"},{"start":12893.622,"end":12907.319,"text":"這個我想再需要進一步了解一下很好那我希望部長的結論就是說軍工產要自主有賴國產廠商投入除了巨數門檻之外市場規模是影響建立產線的重要原因無人機的國產化應該藉由訂單規模"},{"start":12909.381,"end":12920.27,"text":"同步帶動周邊設備進入於本土產能請國防部在3個月內提出一個評估報告列出以無人機自主化國產化來列明潛力裝備的商品並且建立產線的市場規模部長可以嗎"},{"start":12924.198,"end":12945.929,"text":"是我想產業的市場規模在無人機的部分的話我們之前一直有在提到就是希望打入國際的供應鏈是的因為這樣子的話才能夠產有一定的經濟規模效益而且要提前部長不是只有無人機本體整個無人機在戰場上的應用它的周邊的配備也要一併考慮就像你不會只考慮M1A2坦克一樣你會考慮什麼"},{"start":12947.87,"end":12948.17,"text":"先休息5分鐘"},{"start":12979.454,"end":12979.716,"text":"主席"},{"start":13115.382,"end":13115.402,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":13145.759,"end":13158.592,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13250.188,"end":13258.094,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13285.913,"end":13287.327,"text":"本集完"},{"start":13361.482,"end":13367.324,"text":"我們繼續開會下午是由副部長徐衍璞代理備詢那接下來我們請黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席麻煩有請副部長請徐副部長"},{"start":13395.717,"end":13420.812,"text":"副部長你要按一下 要不然會不會 副部長 延續了我之前在最終的事情我的國防部去買那個抗彈纖維部要做抗彈背心 國軍弟兄的安全非常重要所以我對於不肖的商人竟然用劣質的中國的布料來做什麼"},{"start":13422.751,"end":13450.612,"text":"自國軍弟兄的安全與不顧謀取非法的暴力我非常的痛恨但讓我非常驚訝的事情是我的國防部在處理這個案子的時候啊怠惰鬆懈到一個讓我沒有辦法理解的程度啊我為什麼說怠惰鬆懈到一個我沒有辦法理解的程度啊來看一下"},{"start":13452.416,"end":13481.739,"text":"這個是延續著之前我質詢的主題我也給國防部的同仁回應的機會大同公司大眾電腦得標了以後結果竟然用中國製的布料偽造MIT爽賺6700萬這是之前早就發生的弊案我那時候就問一件事"},{"start":13483.448,"end":13511.226,"text":"為什麼這些不肖的廠商還沒有停權你們說有啦有停權大眾公司啊停權了拿到0.7億元的大眾公司停權了拿到2.45億元的大同公司竟然沒有停權我在追這件事情的時候啊我就覺得很狐疑"},{"start":13512.79,"end":13515.332,"text":"這個不肖的廠商為什麼沒有停權是因為他們跟民進黨關係比較好嗎所以不敢停權他嗎是因為他們董事長去幫民進黨的立委助選所以不敢停權他嗎結果你們之前跟媒體說什麼2022年喔"},{"start":13537.748,"end":13564.191,"text":"所依照工程會的調解所以沒有刊登政府公告我還特別跑去公共工程委員會問公共工程委員會的主委主委跟我說啊調解是私人關係啊跟停不停權的公共利益一點關係都沒有第一個問題我上次問到現在你們國防部還沒有回我誰給這個媒體假訊息的查出來沒有"},{"start":13566.085,"end":13569.006,"text":"報告委員這個是我請採購室的趙主任先跟您做個回報好嗎來誰給這個媒體假訊息的委員好這是當時我們國防部軍備局給的訊息但是先停一下軍備局的誰給媒體這個假訊息"},{"start":13585.728,"end":13607.817,"text":"可以這樣胡說八道報告委員這個可能誤會他上面並沒有講說因為調解而不停權我來先看一下第三點本案依契約辦理交貨職研計法解約沒收履約違約金另依工程會調解未刊登政府採購公報這是不是你們提供的回應"},{"start":13609.113,"end":13622.23,"text":"如果媒體看假訊息阿要鄭重發聲明跟媒體抗議阿2022年發了這個聲明以後國防部一句否認都沒有到我今年開始問的時候說這個訊息不對阿"},{"start":13625.677,"end":13647.707,"text":"向委員報告其實剛剛委員所講的大眾公司已經停權了他有兩個案子我剛講過的廢話就不要再提了嘛我有質疑大眾的部分嗎但是他現在目前他當時申請調解那調解不成他現在申訴我就問嘛先停一下好不好你要在上面自說自話還是你要回答問題"},{"start":13649.876,"end":13664.799,"text":"工程會的調解跟停不停權有什麼關係我為了這個事情我還跑去問工程會沒有關係你剛剛上面扯是什麼沒有 調解確實跟停權沒有關係所以我就問嘛當初國防部誰給這個假訊息的不用查嗎可以這樣欺騙國人嗎查出來沒有國防部誰給這個媒體散播假訊息的"},{"start":13677.912,"end":13688.896,"text":"查出來沒有副部長要不要查一個禮拜之內查出來明白回報給我誰放假訊息給媒體的為什麼我對這件事情這麼憤怒來副部長請你往下看我一直在想為什麼可以沒有停權結果搞了半天以後什麼搞了半天以後啊是你們要準備要處理停權的事情啊"},{"start":13707.864,"end":13736.782,"text":"停權的時效早過了停權的時效早過了我在質疑了所以你們在搞什麼東西啊該停權不停權做假動作放假訊息能拖就拖能混就混然後等到說啊我們好像應該要辦停權了發現超過時效了我上面所講的這個歷程副部長請您看一下我這看了"},{"start":13738.729,"end":13739.39,"text":"超過三年才開始搞這個是在放水嗎這是在放水嗎我是有這個問題這是不是在放水"},{"start":13753.2,"end":13781.81,"text":"委員有關委員所質疑的問題我剛也跟委員報告過了我會在一個禮拜之內把這個案子我們再查清楚再向委員再做一個詳細的一個回覆這個是我第三次質詢這個案子相關的同仁該提供的背景的資訊該做的處理應該都很熟悉了我再給國防部一個禮拜當初到底誰在包屁誰在鬼混混到什麼前一任的部長說"},{"start":13783.737,"end":13789.962,"text":"說這種事情我們絕對無法容忍結果大家就混嘛混超過三年了然後假裝要辦庭權發現說啊超過三年的時間沒有辦法辦庭權太離譜了啦一個禮拜之內書面回覆兩個問題一個誰放假訊息給媒體要負什麼責任第二個為什麼超過三年的時間當初誰在拖延的"},{"start":13813.001,"end":13817.927,"text":"這件事情一定要給全體國人一個交代,可以嗎?沒有問題好,謝謝好,感謝委員謝謝黃國昌委員副部長請回接下來我們請羅志強委員上台質詢"},{"start":13840.376,"end":13841.357,"text":"主席有請副部長"},{"start":13852.106,"end":13868.237,"text":"過去中科院曾經一度傳出,完成現有建案後,未來無人機將不再繼續研製,改以對煤產購為主但昨天國防部報告內容指出,將續依需求和預算量產騰雲、瑞淵、紅雀等機型"},{"start":13871.539,"end":13896.289,"text":"可是月初中科院的院長在立法院報告時他才證實說2025年沒有瑞淵二型無人機量產的預算所以中科院已經通知相關下游廠商先停產那以目前為止的話現在這個狀況到底是怎麼樣報告委員我請中科院李院長跟您做一個詳細說明我們報告2025年確實沒有這些量產的預算是"},{"start":13897.454,"end":13920.307,"text":"那我們知道瑞淵二型的設計是為了改善過去海上無人偵察機的電站能力武器的攜帶能力跟通訊能力嘛 對不對還有包含對人力的需求那可是現在所以那現在中科院是就不再有這個計畫是要等到嘉義的無人機園區2026年完成之後才會有新的投入投產計畫嗎"},{"start":13921.55,"end":13942.243,"text":"沒有委員這只是一時的預算排擠我想部長上次在答詢的時候也講得很清楚這些無人機都一定會量產那大概什麼時候呢我們當然希望爭取儘快這儘快是什麼時候因為114年的預算已經編列了那所以說可能要到115年"},{"start":13944.281,"end":13968.588,"text":"那目前共艦跟海警船這繞台的頻次越來越多那是要海上徵收無人機的重要性也開始出現那我不知道國防部對於這部分的戰力評估是如何覺得我們目前應對這個狀況我們的準備是什麼報告委員我請那個我們情報次長跟那個作戰次長先請情報次長就是本這部分來向您做個說明無人機的部分"},{"start":13972.8,"end":13979.57,"text":"順便講一下就算我們的無人機還沒量產但是我們的原型機只要國軍有需要我們都會支援各項的任務謝謝院長"},{"start":13984.537,"end":14003.577,"text":"報告委員我是情報次長謝日生先在這邊跟委員做說明我們在聯合勤監政的部分所使用的有關於無人機的部分按照我們長遠的規劃來講的話是從以高低空不同空城不同類型依照我們的作戰需求來做的這個長遠的規劃"},{"start":14006.107,"end":14031.962,"text":"那我再問一個問題我也看到媒體披露我們顧部長在一場媒體查詢中透露他希望2028年前台灣將採購總計3422架包括微型無人機等6款國產的軍用無人機那這些機型是在我們的中科院現在目前規劃機型的內容在內還是說實質上用目前的計畫狀況是如何"},{"start":14034.805,"end":14050.239,"text":"三千兩百四四架是我們包含陸用型的海用型各有三種那這部分的無人機是由我們民間的廠商來經過我們正式的這個標案來實施的那這三千兩百四通通都已經絕標了所以我們會陸續開始來交機"},{"start":14052.361,"end":14076.661,"text":"那我現在要關心就是有關於無人機自治率的問題那不管是要採用中科院自主研發的機型還是民間企業所開發的軍用商規的無人機型那其實自治率這一塊也是我們今天國防部很重要的一個要求那我們如果說今天參考那個烏俄戰場來看的話無人機戰場消耗非常的大對不對我們參照這個"},{"start":14078.422,"end":14079.643,"text":"自由時報2023年不具名的政府官員指出"},{"start":14099.817,"end":14124.67,"text":"當前國內無人機廠商大部分資本額不大主要是以採購零組件組裝為主那軍用商規無人機開發給民間廠商技術練兵的機會對於無人機關鍵模組的研發跟自主產製有相當注意但後續的陸海軍驗收若合格那國內廠商取得銷售時機才能夠帶動國內無人機產業發展"},{"start":14127.751,"end":14150.391,"text":"但是有人也就認為說今天實際上我們到底這個所謂的零組件的這個部分那關鍵零組件的部分那如果我們今天的量產的那個規模你們覺得什麼時候能夠達到說今天像假定面對到烏俄戰爭的狀況是情況我們有辦法去因應這個大量龐大的需求嗎"},{"start":14151.291,"end":14179.23,"text":"這個也跟委員簡單的報告就是說有關在俄烏戰爭給我們一個非常好的啟示就是在俄烏戰爭雙方無人機的使用都非常大量損耗量陳如剛才委員所說的每一天的損耗可能都上到千架以上所以有關整個無人機我們把無人機的成本要降低是我們未來努力的一個方向所以包含系統化模組化我們也會參與世界各國有關無人機製造的一個能力技術來做一個參考"},{"start":14180.551,"end":14202.813,"text":"我們中科院是做軍用軍規的無人機我們現在民間做的是軍用商規的無人機剛才跟委員所報告的未來我們3,244架包含陸用型、空用、海用型各有三類型總共是六個類型所以這六個類型這一部分我們在國內的所有廠商當中都是經過我們各軍種邀集所有專家來做一個非常嚴格的測試"},{"start":14204.515,"end":14214.466,"text":"經過測試以後他才可以通過決標所以我們在整個一個審查過程當中對於這整個一個生產能力部分我們是列為一個第一優先的所以有關是副長最後做一個簡單的"},{"start":14215.595,"end":14217.516,"text":"實際上我們能不能滿足量產這件事那才是未來如果真的發生"},{"start":14244.264,"end":14244.804,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員那副部長請回"},{"start":14273.564,"end":14273.724,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":14291.26,"end":14291.34,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":14308.476,"end":14310.918,"text":"這也是臺灣軍方首度向民間發出的軍用商規無人機的標售案"},{"start":14329.87,"end":14350.175,"text":"那當然從開始到決標歷經了兩年那換句話說我們也預估到2028年的時候3000多架的這個要由民間的軍規無人機進入到我們的部隊服役是不是啊沒有錯就照這個數字會達成成功嗎而且這6型無人機都已經全部都決標了"},{"start":14351.776,"end":14372.697,"text":"對,所以我們也好不容易在這兩年內去完成這樣的事件這樣的事情那但是在中科院為什麼我們在這十來年都是由中科院這邊來研製所以我首先要請教中科院在這十來年的研製當中我們無人機有多少有加入你的部隊當中"},{"start":14374.488,"end":14391.341,"text":"有嗎目前國軍正在使用的無人機除了剛講的這個正在採購軍用傷灰無人機之外其他大部分都是向中科院採購的這是中科院採購嗎那所以是老祖庫了而且是國家的資產嘛非常的棒那為什麼不續產呢"},{"start":14393.739,"end":14422.631,"text":"為什麼呢那為什麼明年不要呢為什麼要預算排擠呢這也就是為什麼副部長在這裡部長剛好離開我要問部長我們自己有這麼好的早做晚做都要做為什麼明年不給預算中科院到底犯了什麼錯啊為什麼不給培養了這麼好的人才做出了這樣的成績為什麼不給原因是什麼副部長"},{"start":14423.817,"end":14448.281,"text":"委員剛才我想之前我想顧部長包含詹威斯司長因為現在的我們中科院的院長就是原來的詹威斯司長所以在這個整個一個包含我們國內的採購和軍購這一部分的一個整體預算的支出部分我們有一些相關的一個這個優先的一個順序所以在這個20就是在115、114年的明年這一部分都包含瑞苑二期"},{"start":14448.821,"end":14449.121,"text":"為什麼要未來呢?"},{"start":14465.673,"end":14489.584,"text":"為什麼要未來呢?一個國家如果沒有安全無人機目前已經是自我防備重要的選項嘛,是不是?就陳如你剛才說的,它的耗損也非常的大那到底量夠不夠?你沒有量根本什麼都不用講了國人要的是一個安全,尤其我們自己研發自己可以產"},{"start":14491.221,"end":14518.307,"text":"為什麼預算會如此的安排呢?為什麼?中科院有出什麼錯嗎?中科院沒有錯,中科院研發人員都也盡了很多的心力那為什麼呢?很多的心力,你不讓他繼續,是什麼邏輯啊?報告委員,這些案子都是在持續當中的,也跟委員報告就是有關我們希望後續的這個案,包括日元二期這個整個無人機的這個整個性能,各方面希望能夠再做得更好"},{"start":14518.747,"end":14530.641,"text":"這個就是為什麼預算要從易很重要你把項目去理清楚該當要繼續要讓它繼續為什麼我們自己有能力我們都一直在鼓勵鼓勵國機國造"},{"start":14533.764,"end":14554.04,"text":"為什麼我們一直在鼓勵我們的政府政策也是如此嘛對不對但是我們還要跟世界接軌農耗要趕快進來我們的農耗不是做白做工農耗要進來這樣子我們才能夠自力更生啊那為什麼都點頭為什麼會如此的安排這個政府太奇怪了吧"},{"start":14555.782,"end":14573.389,"text":"你讓中科院的人才,他們會傷心,怎麼會如此呢?副部長趕快去盤點趕快去盤點,趁著現在預算重議,趕快去盤點沒有理由讓他們空一年,剛剛中科院院長講得非常的客氣"},{"start":14574.79,"end":14579.713,"text":"我們希望115年114年就可以繼續為什麼要115年115年可以答應嗎為什麼要中間斷層這個邏輯太奇怪了你們去盤點不能如此的對待國人對不對副部長趕快去盤點"},{"start":14597.017,"end":14607.371,"text":"接下來本席要請問我們的軍規、商規這些無人機我們也要請教也就是我們的作戰規劃"},{"start":14609.522,"end":14627.542,"text":"你的無人機的作戰規劃你的操作手冊你要怎麼樣培訓跟訓練還有他們訓練的一個頻率因為軍用三規無人機使用它呢受期五年內五年之後你怎麼處理請說明"},{"start":14629.38,"end":14645.169,"text":"跟委員報告有關無人機的整體的訓練都在我們聯合作戰需求的發展過程當中都列為一個非常重要的要件我特別跟委員報告我們陸軍在7月1號在我們嘉義中莊就成立了第一所無人機訓練中心"},{"start":14647.031,"end":14654.279,"text":"對 那我們要成立無人機訓練中心是配合我們的裝備的這個獲得因為我們從明年開始各項無人機會陸續的這個協調所以包含這個整個人員的編制 人員的訓練 裝備還有包含準則的這個編寫還有人員的訓練現在都已經積極在陸力的推動當中嘛這個非常重要 這就是本席啊是 我們已經在做了"},{"start":14666.793,"end":14695.599,"text":"我們有的這個基地我們要怎麼樣去讓它產出產出之後執行者他所有的訓練頻率他整個的操作手冊訓練這是非常的重要那你們現在在盤點很積極很積極所以如果有機會我們也如果有機會的話也歡迎委員有機會啊給我們再做一個指導那就剛剛本席所說的受期五年之後呢你後續怎麼處理啊"},{"start":14696.985,"end":14705.128,"text":"這個跟委員報告所有的武器裝備都有全受期管理的一個相關的一個計畫對所以說對於對所以除了我們在建案投資之後除了這個裝備後續的裝備後期的維修之外是我們會也會投入相關的一個這個周圍費啊讓這個整個裝備能夠延續下去他不是受期過了以後這個裝備就不管了"},{"start":14719.233,"end":14741.988,"text":"這要講清楚,對,這個非常之重要,因為都是人民的納稅錢當然你五年之後溯起到,你往後要怎麼去處置,這個非常重要怎麼去訓練,怎麼去委管,這些非常重要所以希望你們在這個部分呢,怎麼樣的培訓,怎麼樣的培養,他的訓練頻率我想這個濃厚是比什麼都還重要"},{"start":14742.648,"end":14743.69,"text":"接下來本席再請教"},{"start":14759.512,"end":14782.377,"text":"21號我們公布的9.88億的第三次招標公告因為在兩次前通通沒有人第三次你們再公告了也就無人機的反制系統那在這樣的一個情況之下這些反制系統要部署在我們非常重要的國防的防衛要地因為人民希望要能夠安全"},{"start":14783.297,"end":14808.034,"text":"那所以在這樣子反制的150公斤以下的一二級的無人機呢他要具備哪些呢他必須要具備被動的監測他要主動的去搜索還有一個電子反制的能量的能力那他又要要求也就是必須要易於操作是不是啊要要求易於操作還有跟干擾牆"},{"start":14810.516,"end":14831.973,"text":"清兵器這些都必須要有無人機的一個反制能力所以本期要請教副部長我們目前投票的廠商產品跟軍方的要求有沒有落差有沒有吻合在你第三次公告因為一二次沒有有人會怕你會不會把項目沒有那麼吻合"},{"start":14834.387,"end":14857.261,"text":"在陸軍參謀黨沒有報告之前我先跟委員報告反制無人機系統對我們來講是非常重要的一個系統所以我們在訂立反制無人機系統的時候對於它這個規格性能功性能部分做了嚴格的界定那為了讓這個整個無人機的反制系統能夠有效在戰場上運用所以我們還訂立了相關的評審委員我們邀請了這個"},{"start":14858.542,"end":14861.005,"text":"請問我們的標準是不是依照您所說的這一些的標準在執行之?"},{"start":14881.705,"end":14907.154,"text":"我跟委員報告標準從來沒有改變過標準沒有改變過我們也希望能夠去完成但是我們在預算的執行方面你剩下一年一個月因為延宕下來一年一個月在這樣的情況之下如果就算能夠如期的決標那本市要請教一個重點會不會影響到你整個裝備交付部隊的期程"},{"start":14909.341,"end":14923.93,"text":"跟委員報告有關在這個整個有關跟委員報告有關預算這一部分我也特別在之前我也找我們採購室都去研究過了因為這個無人機反制系統是國內啊這個第一次啦我們來做一個產制我們當然要給他時間"},{"start":14925.111,"end":14925.711,"text":"本席要請問副部長的是說"},{"start":14951.836,"end":14962.869,"text":"你會不會影響到你的裝備交付的期程如果會影響到你國防部是不是有預計要怎麼做的配套措施"},{"start":14964.876,"end":14979.347,"text":"我們這部分會再做一個整體的考量當然我們還是希望這些參與投標的廠商能夠繼續努力啊他們也真的很努力啊部部長 這個不是大家努力而是我們實質上面對的這個問題你已經延宕了你原本的預算期程你有你的KPI的指標你的裝備期程已經慢了"},{"start":14987.833,"end":14993.637,"text":"那你國防部當然大家趕快去努力那你國防部這邊有什麼配套來協助啊這才是人民要聽的啊我才不會緊張啊原本你告訴我你可以怎麼樣保護我現在你騎乘慢了你保護不了我沒有這些裝備了那你還可以怎麼樣有相關的配套來協助啊本席要問的是這個"},{"start":15009.947,"end":15037.055,"text":"有關其他這個細部的配套的方案,因為現在還在案子招標當中,我這邊不適合來跟你再做進一步的報告但我們回去研究完以後,我們再容我們到委員辦公室再跟你再做詳細的說明這個不是不適合,這也沒有什麼秘密本席再給你一個功課,也就是我們鼓勵希望能夠得標完成但是即使到這個時間得標完成,你的裝備設置已經延大"},{"start":15037.435,"end":15039.816,"text":"林俊憲委員不在接下來我們請王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":15073.076,"end":15077.16,"text":"主席、徐副部長、陸軍司令部參謀長、王委員延續楊瓊英委員所質詢的題目,無人機反制系統是"},{"start":15094.364,"end":15123.104,"text":"部長顧部長他特別講今年度一個優先採購的項目但是現在招標作業並不順利如同剛才楊瓊英委員所講的因為前兩次一次因為流標只有一家第二次因為兩家的最後的驗證的結果通通不合格也流標所以現在第三次的招標作業但是"},{"start":15125.506,"end":15150.296,"text":"這個為什麼會一再的流標啊?支部部長還是參謀長來回答一下這個整個一個平衡過程我看採購室吧 國防採購室來做的吧來 國防採購室來向委員做個說明趕快喔 時間有限喔各位委員報告 這個他主要第一次流標是因為未達三家我剛剛講了嗎第二次流標是 第二次廢標是因為廠商交了樣機沒有經過陸軍的這個POC的驗證都不合格 不合格 是好"},{"start":15153.997,"end":15157.282,"text":"那為什麼會這樣的狀況事實上在我們這個9億8963萬這個這麼大型的標案的過程裡面包含媒體都有一再的報導"},{"start":15169.498,"end":15196.875,"text":"比如說說你們呢接受接受這兩套未完成整合的無人機反制系統因為他沒有完成整合然後你看到最後似乎是在為廠商鋪路果不其然最後因為你開出的規格只有一家來做投標所以我剛講就一家嘛最後就留標了"},{"start":15198.473,"end":15225.969,"text":"一家流包沒有關係等第二次等第二次之後沒想到突然殺出個陳曉金來了因為剛才副部長也講回答楊瓊英委員說我們從頭沒有改沒有改但是你們中間有改你們中間改了公告招標作業是把他的軍事裝備的營業稅讓他免稅那造成了大家覺得可能有利可圖"},{"start":15227.149,"end":15252.587,"text":"結果跑出一個陳曉金因為如果第二次還是那個似乎在為魔廠商在部落的那個廠商來一家就解決了嘛第二次就解決了沒想到第二次跑來了一個陳曉金跑來跟你一起投標那其結果那投標大家都一起來嘛一起這個來做測試兩個都不合格所以通通又變廢標嘛"},{"start":15254.557,"end":15273.337,"text":"所以我要講的是這個高達將近10億的案子這中間包含媒體都一直在做隱喻甚至直接講啦直接點出說看起來應該從第1次到第2次甚至到第3次大家都看好或者認為應該那家創未來"},{"start":15277.787,"end":15303.175,"text":"會繼續的來投標第一次就只有一個創未來嘛第二次創未來又來了只是我剛剛講殺出了另外一家公司跑過來投標那所以這個規格真的你們用最高標準嗎符合美國的標準嗎這樣讓外界認為是量身定做的一個標案其結果就是反反覆覆從7月開始"},{"start":15305.413,"end":15327.475,"text":"進入第一次招標程序現在看起來今年底能不能完成能不能達到你們顧立雄部長他所設定的目標看起來都有都有很大的變數所以為什麼在媒體或者外界都認為有特定廠商鋪路而造成了一直延宕"},{"start":15329.306,"end":15336.331,"text":"所以副部長能回答嗎還是參謀長回答我是陸軍參謀長向委員報告第一個有關於所謂報導有為廠商鋪路或是量身訂做這個絕對不是事實這第一點那我為什麼這樣講因為啊"},{"start":15349.56,"end":15365.145,"text":"他在整個POC的測試他是由所謂的第三方公正還有民間的學者剛剛副部長報告了他包含到相關的航電資訊電子這個是第二個我要報告的第三個"},{"start":15367.646,"end":15389.121,"text":"因為他的測試他是在一套標準但是單獨來實施兩家廠商他在不同天來實施但是共同的監測全程錄影而且這個如果說為他鋪路的話事實上他也是不合格的單位那個蔡部長我必須要你答非所問啊因為我剛剛講你們規格就綁在那裡了嘛"},{"start":15391.771,"end":15399.499,"text":"這個規格是依照我們的自然需求來訂定的你規格像無人機人家美國比我們先進吧這反制性我們先進我們為什麼沒有採取人家美國的標準呢"},{"start":15403.936,"end":15423.05,"text":"我們自己找一家特定廠商弄出來的一個規格對不對自己最後又沒有整合成功我們並不是用這家特定廠商的規格就是大家都認為說被這個特定廠商所這個他一定會來投標我們可以拭目以待嘛第3次11月嘛這家廠商會不會出現嘛"},{"start":15427.681,"end":15446.793,"text":"這家廠商會不會出現因為他沒有停權這是他投標的自由但是我代表其他的廠商沒有比他優的規格這個第二次的這個突然出現了一個陳咬金就不在你們的劇情之內嘛本來劇情是寫這樣子怎麼跑出一家所以我在這邊特別質詢的是"},{"start":15451.016,"end":15468.957,"text":"無人機反制系統之重要也是你們國防部視為優先的採購項目但是請不要因為特殊的原因特殊的人事的關心我聽到的更多"},{"start":15470.663,"end":15483.333,"text":"直接說啦我們最近不是還有什麼某某什麼立委啊連那個不那個什麼根本不合格的人都硬塞到某些單位人事的關心採購的關心"},{"start":15486.383,"end":15502.651,"text":"所以我在這邊公開直接說我們支持這個金額非常龐大我們也認為應該優先要去做建制尤其我們在離島的部分更需要但是不要因為"},{"start":15503.852,"end":15524.165,"text":"要為特殊廠商量身訂做不要因為要向特殊的人士來做交代而使得我們這個標案一再的延宕其結果是我們大家一起付代價這是我今天在這邊苦口婆心好不好所以也請當然今天部長他"},{"start":15525.486,"end":15525.786,"text":"副部長請回"},{"start":15548.743,"end":15555.228,"text":"邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在接下來我們請黃婕委員上台質詢黃委員好"},{"start":15575.39,"end":15603.961,"text":"好 副部長好今天傳出一個消息我先在這邊請教你喔就是新市局有據說有最近破獲了一個在宮廟跟幫派他們吸收現役跟退役的軍人然後請他們拿著五星旗來拍攝投降影片以及請他們洩漏軍情不知道我們國防部這邊有沒有掌握是 報告委員我這部分我請鎮安局陳局長來跟您做詳細的說明好不好"},{"start":15606.328,"end":15612.555,"text":"委員好這個案子是我們官兵陸續檢舉還有國安通報然後我們通報國安局統合相關的國安單位來共同偵辦那這個剛剛"},{"start":15622.958,"end":15626.219,"text":"行事局那邊還有高檢署也都有發布新聞那這個部分呢我們因為還在司法偵辦當中對於案情我們就不多做敘述好那其實針對新聞的內容也提到了就如我剛剛說的包括現役軍人退役軍人全部都有在這一次的這個案件當中然後據這個新聞內容是指出他們每個人以賤計酬"},{"start":15648.366,"end":15649.166,"text":"報告委員我們對於官兵利益薰心"},{"start":15672.421,"end":15674.962,"text":"然後背叛國家的行為我們嚴厲的譴責那對於後續我們會持續的加強保防教育跟愛國教育那近年來我們破獲的這個共諜案有86%到87%都是我們官兵檢舉所以我們在保防教育的部分已經有成效那後續我們會持續加強"},{"start":15696.394,"end":15719.293,"text":"好 謝謝局長回覆在這邊還是再次提醒因為這樣的滲透行為滋事體大那我也希望說接下來的保防機制除了說加強教育之外是不是還有其他的方式我們應該更強力嚴格大家一起來做更強的防範好不好因為看到這樣的新聞其實會讓人很失望啦大家對於我們國軍的信心"},{"start":15720.541,"end":15736.367,"text":"所以跟委員報告我們對於這些違反國外案件還有包含國家忠誠的問題對於國軍來講是絕對不容許我想剛才偵探局陳局長也跟委員做了一個詳細的說明對於這些涉有犯行的這些官兵"},{"start":15736.867,"end":15754.453,"text":"我們一定是依法就辦 絕對不會寬重那剛才委員所提到除了我們要加強我們的保防教育之外 包含我們法律司我們對於整個法紀的維護 還有對於法律的一個宣導案例的宣導 我們都會持續的進行我想這件事情也給我們一個非常好的借鏡 感謝委員指導"},{"start":15756.377,"end":15783.389,"text":"好 謝謝副部長的補充那這個接下來拜託大家一起來防範那再來我想要請教的是因為其實前兩天日本的NHK其實有發布一個紀錄片就是針對這個安巡公司我不知道說我們國防部裡面有沒有去看了一下這個相關的內容其實裡面有提到說這個追蹤中國洩漏的文件涉及20幾個國家其中台灣就一定是非常重要他們要鎖定的對象"},{"start":15784.349,"end":15812.052,"text":"那這個其實裡面他也提到非常具體這個安巡公司做什麼呢他針對台灣把台灣的一些關鍵的基礎設施包括我們公路啊然後一些地形然後路線全部都把資料整理起來然後提供給中國的公安部門以及解放軍的部門那我不知道說我們國防部現在有沒有掌握到這一些相關的資訊洩漏到什麼程度有沒有是非公開資訊但是已經被掌握的呢"},{"start":15812.66,"end":15813.781,"text":"國軍平常只有設置治安防護安管理中心24小時監控"},{"start":15826.052,"end":15842.273,"text":"那如果遇到異常的情況的話我們都會適時的通報跟反映那我們市裡面每年也會針對我們各單位所以像是安巡公司這樣子的行為是沒有發現我們檢視過之後沒有這樣任何的惡意行為跟這個跟還有駭客的工具"},{"start":15843.404,"end":15865.68,"text":"好,謝謝次長的說明,我在這邊是想要提醒啦,雖然可能他們現在整理的都還是一些公開的資訊,包括一些他們其實裡面有具體的提到喔,就是台灣的公路、地形、橋樑、隧道的位置都已經在他們整理給中國的公安部門,都已經整理好了,然後這也是他們現在重點要網路攻擊的對象。"},{"start":15866.5,"end":15894.965,"text":"那除了接下來當然你們隨時都在監控這個是必要的那其實在美國的跨黨派的智庫的主席他也有示警說這些都是對他們來說除了這些是必要的之外接下來他們的意圖很明顯嘛就是在未來有可能要嘗試在佔領台灣或是任何軍事行動的時候他們可以精準的調動裝甲的部隊以及兵力那我相信這個都是我們在這一次的NHK的這個紀錄片裡面我們必須要示警而且必須要加強防範的"},{"start":15896.124,"end":15917.833,"text":"那再來當然因為其實現在中共對於這個相關從這一次的這個事件就可以看得出來他們的資訊戰這10年來的演練已經到一個程度包括說跟這一些他們自己的資訊公司合作然後進行這些20幾個國家的網路的攻擊以及監控那我不知道說國防部在這方面有沒有任何的防範以及接下來的加強呢"},{"start":15921.023,"end":15941.4,"text":"國防部本來就已經納入了行政院的這個國家資通安全的匯報裡面那如果發生任何的資安通報我們事實上會跟這個速發部裡面的這個國家電腦緊急應變中心回報那各部會之間都可以互相通聯然後一起共同防守"},{"start":15941.88,"end":15969.179,"text":"好 謝謝次長說明我在這邊是想要提醒啦因為現在錯假訊息的應對其實對很多台灣人來說這個都是非常迫切的那我現在認為政府做的其實還不太夠怎麼說呢因為包括前陣子有一個民防法被造謠然後說什麼總統下令16歲學生要造冊上戰場這件事情很明顯就是一個錯假訊息但是我們應對的方式就只是在教育部的網站上面說這是假的"},{"start":15970.1,"end":15992.991,"text":"那你認為這樣的應對是夠的嗎?所以其實像剛剛次長說的這個是一個必須要跨部會大家一起來整合的東西那面對資訊戰我希望能做的是國防部竟然是一個政戰最高單位那我希望接下來要協助各部會包括你看連教育部都會被攻擊不管是樹發部甚至到我們各個農業部都有可能有錯假訊息的被攻擊的樣態那你們應該要去統和"},{"start":15996.693,"end":15996.933,"text":"謝謝黃婕委員副部長請回"},{"start":16028.787,"end":16039.235,"text":"鄭正前 鄭正前 鄭正前委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在吳思瑤 吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在高金素梅 高金素梅 高金素梅委員不在"},{"start":16057.554,"end":16086.282,"text":"侯孟楷侯孟楷侯孟楷委員不在已登記質詢委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭質詢為有答覆的部分要求補充資料者亦請相關單位與書面兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束上會"}]}},{"id":"16206","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16206","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd5998180c4b1e7cf4b6918ac9a81339756059d4d42a7fce2125acd555fcc6afd15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T08:31:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:36:00+08:00","duration":21899,"影片長度":"06:04:59","委員發言時間":"08:31:01 - 14:36:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1746.3909687500002,"end":1748.1290937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1748.4834687500002,"end":1750.6097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1750.8122187500003,"end":1751.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1754.5584687500002,"end":1756.2628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1757.0559687500001,"end":1758.6253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1759.0809687500002,"end":1760.6503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1761.4434687500002,"end":1764.5315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1765.9490937500002,"end":1766.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1766.70846875,"end":1768.4634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1771.65284375,"end":1772.8847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1773.1378437500002,"end":1774.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1774.8253437500002,"end":1775.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1775.4665937500001,"end":1776.5297187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1776.9009687500002,"end":1777.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1780.22534375,"end":1781.5584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1782.0815937500001,"end":1783.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1784.44409375,"end":1785.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1788.4265937500002,"end":1789.7090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1789.8609687500002,"end":1790.9915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1792.6959687500002,"end":1794.9403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1795.2947187500001,"end":1796.3409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1797.8765937500002,"end":1798.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1799.47971875,"end":1800.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1800.9478437500002,"end":1801.6397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1802.6353437500002,"end":1803.9515937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1804.0697187500002,"end":1804.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1808.3053437500002,"end":1809.1659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1809.2672187500002,"end":1809.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1810.1278437500002,"end":1811.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1813.3678437500002,"end":1814.3465937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1814.8359687500001,"end":1816.1690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1817.4347187500002,"end":1817.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1819.18971875,"end":1819.8140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1820.16846875,"end":1820.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1820.9784687500003,"end":1822.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1822.3622187500002,"end":1822.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1824.7753437500003,"end":1826.1759687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1826.4122187500002,"end":1827.5259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1830.2090937500002,"end":1831.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1831.4578437500002,"end":1832.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1832.52096875,"end":1833.5672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1834.91721875,"end":1836.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1838.3259687500001,"end":1839.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1840.55346875,"end":1841.0765937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1841.3465937500002,"end":1841.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1842.22409375,"end":1842.9834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1843.3209687500002,"end":1846.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1847.1178437500002,"end":1848.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1848.8897187500002,"end":1849.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1850.0540937500002,"end":1851.1847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1851.6909687500001,"end":1852.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1852.6697187500001,"end":1853.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1855.9940937500003,"end":1856.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1857.1753437500001,"end":1859.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1859.3353437500002,"end":1860.5840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1861.37721875,"end":1862.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1864.7690937500001,"end":1865.7984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1866.55784375,"end":1867.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1867.5197187500003,"end":1869.1903437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1875.3328437500002,"end":1878.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1878.8259687500001,"end":1879.7034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1879.9734687500002,"end":1885.5253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1887.0609687500003,"end":1889.4572187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1889.4740937500003,"end":1896.8653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1897.50659375,"end":1898.9915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1899.3122187500003,"end":1901.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":1902.0797187500002,"end":1904.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1913.53784375,"end":1914.0440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1914.1959687500002,"end":1916.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1916.7440937500003,"end":1923.6459687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1924.0678437500003,"end":1927.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1927.9828437500003,"end":1928.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1928.99534375,"end":1939.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1940.53784375,"end":1947.8953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1948.0640937500002,"end":1948.7728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1949.3465937500002,"end":1950.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1951.0509687500003,"end":1953.2615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1953.5990937500003,"end":1954.6622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1954.88159375,"end":1956.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1956.2147187500002,"end":1958.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1959.38721875,"end":1961.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1962.5934687500003,"end":1966.0528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1966.2553437500003,"end":1966.9134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1967.5040937500003,"end":1974.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1974.86159375,"end":1978.0340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1978.3884687500001,"end":1986.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1987.0622187500003,"end":1988.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1989.0365937500003,"end":2006.7215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2007.4134687500002,"end":2008.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2009.5228437500002,"end":2018.3653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2018.8209687500002,"end":2021.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2021.6559687500003,"end":2027.3597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2027.8153437500002,"end":2029.5028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2030.7853437500003,"end":2031.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2032.3884687500001,"end":2036.2697187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2036.8097187500002,"end":2051.2715937499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2052.5709687500002,"end":2059.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2060.1309687499997,"end":2070.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2071.3359687500006,"end":2073.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2074.79534375,"end":2076.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2077.56284375,"end":2079.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2080.63409375,"end":2083.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2083.9247187500005,"end":2098.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2099.19659375,"end":2106.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2108.30909375,"end":2109.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2116.0547187500006,"end":2380.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2381.8359687500006,"end":2497.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2500.9734687500004,"end":2501.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2501.9522187500006,"end":2503.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2503.67346875,"end":2509.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2510.0690937500003,"end":2514.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2515.2497187500003,"end":2516.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2516.4140937500006,"end":2519.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2526.7584687500002,"end":2527.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2527.9734687500004,"end":2541.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2542.06409375,"end":2543.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2543.8190937500003,"end":2545.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2545.6415937500005,"end":2546.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2547.2615937500004,"end":2547.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2547.9872187500005,"end":2551.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2552.10471875,"end":2567.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2567.79846875,"end":2575.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2575.51034375,"end":2585.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2585.66909375,"end":2589.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2590.02284375,"end":2593.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2594.12346875,"end":2594.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2594.6465937500006,"end":2611.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2611.6228437500004,"end":2627.8565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2627.9072187500005,"end":2629.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2629.3415937500004,"end":2631.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2632.34534375,"end":2634.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2635.3153437500005,"end":2668.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2668.30596875,"end":2683.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2684.4215937500003,"end":2685.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2685.8222187500005,"end":2693.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2693.92221875,"end":2705.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2705.19471875,"end":2710.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2707.25346875,"end":2707.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2709.3290937500005,"end":2715.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2716.34909375,"end":2716.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2718.03659375,"end":2718.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2720.7028437500003,"end":2723.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2723.9765937500006,"end":2726.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2726.76096875,"end":2728.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2728.46534375,"end":2730.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2730.33846875,"end":2734.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2734.7090937500006,"end":2735.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2741.83034375,"end":2742.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2742.67409375,"end":2743.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2743.6022187500002,"end":2757.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2757.9628437500005,"end":2774.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2774.93909375,"end":2786.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2786.7009687500004,"end":2804.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2805.0440937500007,"end":2812.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2813.7009687500004,"end":2828.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2829.05721875,"end":2834.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2835.0309687500003,"end":2835.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2835.90846875,"end":2840.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2840.7684687500005,"end":2856.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2856.71534375,"end":2884.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2884.8290937500005,"end":2886.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2886.83721875,"end":2904.2184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2905.33221875,"end":2907.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2907.45846875,"end":2925.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2926.1728437500005,"end":2927.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2927.03346875,"end":2927.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2927.26971875,"end":2927.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2927.89409375,"end":2927.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2927.9109687500004,"end":2930.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2930.9315937500005,"end":2931.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2932.8722187500007,"end":2933.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2935.0322187500005,"end":2935.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2944.09409375,"end":2997.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2997.6553437500006,"end":3083.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3084.15659375,"end":3085.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3085.47284375,"end":3087.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3087.0928437500006,"end":3092.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3092.5772187500006,"end":3106.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3107.19096875,"end":3107.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3107.9840937500003,"end":3168.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3169.42596875,"end":3174.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3174.85971875,"end":3181.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3181.74471875,"end":3184.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3185.0859687500006,"end":3187.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3187.7184687500003,"end":3229.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3229.88909375,"end":3251.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3251.99534375,"end":3283.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3281.61096875,"end":3281.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3284.5303437500006,"end":3288.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3289.8797187500004,"end":3292.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3292.86659375,"end":3295.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3295.8028437500006,"end":3298.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3298.8572187500004,"end":3302.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3309.9103437500007,"end":3313.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3314.0447187500004,"end":3319.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3319.4784687500005,"end":3487.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3488.26221875,"end":3525.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3505.67721875,"end":3505.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3525.6572187500005,"end":3623.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3625.2028437500003,"end":3627.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3628.13909375,"end":3632.6447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3633.01596875,"end":3644.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3644.7947187500004,"end":3650.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3650.61659375,"end":3653.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3653.9072187500005,"end":3656.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3656.6240937500006,"end":3657.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3657.7040937500005,"end":3658.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3658.3622187500005,"end":3660.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3660.4715937500005,"end":3663.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3671.1872187500003,"end":3677.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3674.4440937500003,"end":3675.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3677.4647187500004,"end":3679.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3677.56596875,"end":3679.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3684.8222187500005,"end":3690.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3685.86846875,"end":3686.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3690.7115937500002,"end":3696.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3696.6853437500004,"end":3707.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3707.45159375,"end":3722.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3722.94284375,"end":3733.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3734.09721875,"end":3782.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3782.8153437500005,"end":3787.5909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3787.5909687500007,"end":3837.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3837.9628437500005,"end":3838.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3838.77284375,"end":3847.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3847.3115937500006,"end":3852.0197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3849.2184687500003,"end":3849.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3849.7247187500006,"end":3851.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3852.34034375,"end":3864.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":3861.8915937500005,"end":3862.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":3864.2372187500005,"end":3864.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3864.5915937500004,"end":3866.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":3866.75159375,"end":3866.7853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3866.7853437500007,"end":3866.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3866.98784375,"end":3869.5528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3867.0047187500004,"end":3867.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":3867.0553437500002,"end":3867.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3867.10596875,"end":3867.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3869.5528437500006,"end":3869.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3869.7890937500006,"end":3872.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3873.36659375,"end":3879.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3880.79159375,"end":3886.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3886.93409375,"end":3975.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3975.76409375,"end":3979.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3979.13909375,"end":4025.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3992.2003437500007,"end":3992.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":3992.21721875,"end":3992.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3992.2340937500003,"end":3992.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":3992.26784375,"end":3992.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":3992.3015937500004,"end":3992.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4025.3259687500004,"end":4025.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4025.4440937500003,"end":4042.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4025.47784375,"end":4025.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4042.42034375,"end":4050.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4050.9928437500002,"end":4053.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4053.8953437500004,"end":4071.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4071.6309687500006,"end":4073.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4074.3984687500006,"end":4084.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4087.2234687500004,"end":4095.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4095.9140937500006,"end":4100.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4100.16659375,"end":4101.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4102.51221875,"end":4102.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4102.529093749999,"end":4102.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4102.545968750001,"end":4102.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4102.630343750001,"end":4102.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4102.967843750001,"end":4136.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4135.452218750001,"end":4135.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4135.485968749999,"end":4135.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4135.958468750001,"end":4135.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4136.02596875,"end":4136.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4136.1103437500005,"end":4136.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4136.515343749999,"end":4137.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4137.038468750001,"end":4150.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4151.010968750001,"end":4173.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4173.48846875,"end":4174.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4175.142218749999,"end":4176.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4177.116593750001,"end":4199.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4200.825968749999,"end":4208.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4208.92596875,"end":4225.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4226.003468749999,"end":4233.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4234.2215937500005,"end":4250.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4251.231593750001,"end":4254.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4254.319718750001,"end":4254.876593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4255.60221875,"end":4288.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4288.45784375,"end":4297.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4298.86971875,"end":4302.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4303.1053437499995,"end":4321.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4321.27971875,"end":4351.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4351.5028437500005,"end":4357.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4359.0965937500005,"end":4360.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4360.530968749999,"end":4388.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4388.560343749999,"end":4390.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4390.112843749999,"end":4398.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4398.16221875,"end":4400.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4399.309718750001,"end":4401.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4401.2840937500005,"end":4402.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4401.975968750001,"end":4401.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4405.536593750001,"end":4406.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4407.29159375,"end":4409.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4418.057843750001,"end":4420.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4421.31471875,"end":4422.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4421.331593749999,"end":4423.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4424.4872187500005,"end":4426.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4425.11159375,"end":4426.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4426.27596875,"end":4426.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4426.309718750001,"end":4426.394093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":4426.394093749999,"end":4427.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4427.187218749999,"end":4427.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4437.19409375,"end":4466.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4467.24846875,"end":4470.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4472.36159375,"end":4474.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4476.040343750001,"end":4478.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4479.044093750001,"end":4481.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4481.288468750001,"end":4481.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4482.57096875,"end":4483.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4483.98846875,"end":4485.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4485.034718749999,"end":4485.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4485.05159375,"end":4485.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4485.96284375,"end":4487.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4488.44346875,"end":4513.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4514.07659375,"end":4514.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4514.58284375,"end":4514.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4515.24096875,"end":4515.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4516.0340937500005,"end":4524.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4522.868468750001,"end":4528.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4529.466593749999,"end":4540.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4540.215968750001,"end":4543.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4542.831593749999,"end":4544.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4544.45159375,"end":4544.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4544.4853437500005,"end":4546.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4546.999718749999,"end":4547.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4547.944718750001,"end":4560.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4549.56471875,"end":4551.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4555.8084687499995,"end":4556.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4559.385968750001,"end":4559.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":4559.77409375,"end":4560.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4562.06909375,"end":4574.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4573.9490937499995,"end":4574.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4574.97846875,"end":4575.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4576.497218750001,"end":4577.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4577.03721875,"end":4577.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4577.138468749999,"end":4577.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4577.25659375,"end":4577.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4577.340968750001,"end":4577.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4577.40846875,"end":4581.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4581.49221875,"end":4593.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4593.827843749999,"end":4610.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4610.92221875,"end":4615.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4615.2928437499995,"end":4623.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4623.71346875,"end":4625.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4625.63721875,"end":4627.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4627.93221875,"end":4628.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4629.0965937500005,"end":4637.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4638.34409375,"end":4639.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4639.93034375,"end":4643.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4643.760968750001,"end":4645.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4646.140343749999,"end":4671.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4672.482218749999,"end":4694.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4694.470343749999,"end":4695.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4695.887843750001,"end":4697.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4698.081593749999,"end":4711.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4711.41284375,"end":4730.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4731.00471875,"end":4732.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4732.42221875,"end":4740.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4740.825968749999,"end":4749.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4746.884093750001,"end":4747.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4748.706593750001,"end":4749.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4749.702218750001,"end":4757.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4756.2665937500005,"end":4756.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4756.435343749999,"end":4756.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4757.903468750001,"end":4758.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4759.202843749999,"end":4759.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4760.53596875,"end":4762.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4762.71284375,"end":4785.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4772.82096875,"end":4773.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4785.76409375,"end":4792.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4792.682843750001,"end":4801.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4801.69409375,"end":4809.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4811.16096875,"end":4811.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4812.62909375,"end":4823.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":4823.86784375,"end":4824.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4824.137843750001,"end":4827.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4828.18784375,"end":4837.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4837.28346875,"end":4837.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4837.41846875,"end":4838.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4838.937218749999,"end":4865.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4866.089093750001,"end":4893.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4893.460343750001,"end":4941.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4934.58471875,"end":4937.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4940.35596875,"end":4940.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4940.609093749999,"end":4941.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4941.4697187500005,"end":4942.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4945.215968750001,"end":4945.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4945.23284375,"end":4946.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4948.23659375,"end":4950.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4950.66659375,"end":4950.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4959.036593750001,"end":4965.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4965.66846875,"end":4966.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4974.39284375,"end":4985.142218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4986.087218750001,"end":4997.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4998.20346875,"end":4999.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4999.14846875,"end":4999.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4999.165343750001,"end":4999.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4999.18221875,"end":5005.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5002.55721875,"end":5013.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5006.03346875,"end":5006.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5008.919093750001,"end":5009.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5009.96534375,"end":5012.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5013.036593750001,"end":5034.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5019.077843749999,"end":5019.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5034.974093750001,"end":5060.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5060.03346875,"end":5060.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":5060.6747187500005,"end":5061.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5061.045968750001,"end":5070.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5070.42846875,"end":5074.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5072.841593749999,"end":5073.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5074.19159375,"end":5082.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5082.325343750001,"end":5087.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5087.32034375,"end":5087.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5087.59034375,"end":5144.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5087.6747187500005,"end":5087.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5145.1678437499995,"end":5183.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5147.36159375,"end":5148.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5181.702218750001,"end":5182.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5189.83596875,"end":5222.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5221.37534375,"end":5223.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5222.894093750001,"end":5247.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5246.434718750001,"end":5246.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5247.362843750001,"end":5265.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5259.698468750001,"end":5260.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5261.655968749999,"end":5262.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5264.659718750001,"end":5330.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5265.30096875,"end":5265.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5266.51596875,"end":5267.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":5313.833468750001,"end":5314.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5314.03596875,"end":5314.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":5314.575968749999,"end":5314.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5329.56096875,"end":5345.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5345.50784375,"end":5350.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5350.65471875,"end":5353.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5353.97909375,"end":5357.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5357.53971875,"end":5358.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5358.16409375,"end":5363.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5364.01971875,"end":5368.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5369.234093749999,"end":5384.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5384.607218749999,"end":5385.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5385.43409375,"end":5388.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5387.374718749999,"end":5389.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5389.7372187500005,"end":5394.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5394.19221875,"end":5405.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5406.038468750001,"end":5417.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5417.378468750001,"end":5417.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5417.39534375,"end":5422.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5417.41221875,"end":5418.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5422.42409375,"end":5424.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5424.465968750001,"end":5428.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5429.1572187500005,"end":5435.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5436.48096875,"end":5491.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5485.030343750001,"end":5485.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5489.7215937500005,"end":5491.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5491.56096875,"end":5503.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5503.84596875,"end":5516.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5506.394093750001,"end":5506.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5506.46159375,"end":5506.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5516.8397187499995,"end":5539.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5539.04721875,"end":5553.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5553.39096875,"end":5590.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5594.667218750001,"end":5596.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5596.810343749999,"end":5599.392218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5605.635968750001,"end":5606.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5606.800343750001,"end":5608.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5608.70721875,"end":5609.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5618.9334687499995,"end":5620.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5620.38471875,"end":5622.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5622.325343750001,"end":5622.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5622.983468750001,"end":5627.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5627.97846875,"end":5628.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5628.40034375,"end":5629.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5630.003468750001,"end":5630.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5631.1678437499995,"end":5639.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5640.38159375,"end":5644.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5645.0897187499995,"end":5647.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5648.194718750001,"end":5650.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":5650.253468750001,"end":5650.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5650.28721875,"end":5651.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5652.227843750001,"end":5656.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5656.446593750001,"end":5656.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5656.7840937500005,"end":5659.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5660.07471875,"end":5663.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5663.618468750001,"end":5671.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5671.769093750001,"end":5674.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5675.1103437500005,"end":5679.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5679.548468749999,"end":5679.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5680.37534375,"end":5684.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5684.88096875,"end":5688.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5688.94784375,"end":5693.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5693.6053437499995,"end":5695.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5695.64721875,"end":5697.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5698.04346875,"end":5700.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5701.958468750001,"end":5712.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5712.8934687500005,"end":5714.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5714.88471875,"end":5718.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5719.23846875,"end":5720.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5721.280343750001,"end":5721.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5721.29721875,"end":5721.314093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5721.314093749999,"end":5723.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5723.30534375,"end":5726.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5723.87909375,"end":5729.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5726.54534375,"end":5726.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5728.09784375,"end":5728.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5728.114718750001,"end":5733.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5733.71721875,"end":5734.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5734.89846875,"end":5738.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5735.708468750001,"end":5738.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5738.762843750001,"end":5742.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5739.10034375,"end":5740.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5743.403468750001,"end":5744.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5744.77034375,"end":5754.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5755.435343749999,"end":5756.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5756.7684687500005,"end":5758.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5759.31659375,"end":5760.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5761.1728437500005,"end":5762.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5762.92784375,"end":5765.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5765.982218749999,"end":5769.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5770.0322187500005,"end":5770.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5771.061593750001,"end":5773.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5773.778468750001,"end":5775.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5776.19159375,"end":5777.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5777.811593750001,"end":5778.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5779.347218750001,"end":5780.376593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5780.849093750001,"end":5781.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5782.23284375,"end":5782.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5783.39721875,"end":5783.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5784.544718749999,"end":5785.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5786.21534375,"end":5789.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5789.97846875,"end":5790.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5790.75471875,"end":5791.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5792.189093749999,"end":5793.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5793.52221875,"end":5796.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5797.0322187500005,"end":5797.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5798.331593750001,"end":5798.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5799.34409375,"end":5800.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5800.3397187499995,"end":5801.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5802.415343750001,"end":5803.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5804.96346875,"end":5806.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5807.96721875,"end":5809.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5811.10596875,"end":5811.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5812.388468749999,"end":5813.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5814.734093749999,"end":5816.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5817.67034375,"end":5818.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5818.716593749999,"end":5819.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5819.982218749999,"end":5821.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5821.97346875,"end":5824.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5826.02346875,"end":5829.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5830.7147187499995,"end":5834.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5835.38909375,"end":5835.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5836.114718750001,"end":5836.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5837.17784375,"end":5838.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5839.1522187499995,"end":5839.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5840.31659375,"end":5844.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5846.03721875,"end":5846.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5847.184718750001,"end":5849.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5850.01971875,"end":5850.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5850.694718750001,"end":5850.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5851.47096875,"end":5852.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5852.82096875,"end":5853.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5853.884093750001,"end":5855.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5856.128468750001,"end":5856.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5857.731593750001,"end":5860.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5862.11909375,"end":5862.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5862.70971875,"end":5865.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5865.81471875,"end":5867.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5868.21096875,"end":5869.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5869.03784375,"end":5869.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5869.628468750001,"end":5869.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5869.64534375,"end":5870.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5871.11346875,"end":5882.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5881.592843750001,"end":5886.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5884.7147187499995,"end":5902.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5901.11721875,"end":5906.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5906.39909375,"end":5908.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5908.94721875,"end":5909.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5909.74034375,"end":5922.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5911.19159375,"end":5911.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5920.69221875,"end":5921.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5922.61596875,"end":5922.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5922.66659375,"end":5922.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5922.86909375,"end":5926.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5923.257218750001,"end":5923.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5923.29096875,"end":5923.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5926.260968750001,"end":5926.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5926.446593750001,"end":5926.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5926.497218750001,"end":5926.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5926.530968749999,"end":5926.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5926.61534375,"end":5927.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5927.50971875,"end":5930.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5931.087218750001,"end":5932.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5932.84221875,"end":5936.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5938.073468750001,"end":5949.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5949.37971875,"end":5949.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5949.5653437500005,"end":5952.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5952.53534375,"end":5956.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5956.55159375,"end":5960.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5961.68159375,"end":5964.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5964.34784375,"end":5964.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5964.887843750001,"end":5974.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5975.36721875,"end":5976.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5977.814093750001,"end":5978.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5979.130343750001,"end":5980.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5980.767218750001,"end":5982.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5982.72471875,"end":5984.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5985.1884687500005,"end":5989.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5990.35221875,"end":5993.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5993.474093750001,"end":5997.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5998.350968750001,"end":6006.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6007.109093749999,"end":6010.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6010.214093750001,"end":6010.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6011.7665937500005,"end":6016.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6017.048468750001,"end":6021.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6021.99284375,"end":6025.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6025.030343750001,"end":6042.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6042.61409375,"end":6043.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6043.79534375,"end":6047.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6048.09846875,"end":6049.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6049.65096875,"end":6050.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6051.186593750001,"end":6052.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6053.07659375,"end":6055.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6055.9959687499995,"end":6056.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6056.147843750001,"end":6057.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6057.464093750001,"end":6058.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6058.999718749999,"end":6060.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6060.788468750001,"end":6065.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6060.85596875,"end":6060.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6061.075343750001,"end":6061.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6065.378468750001,"end":6075.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6066.458468750001,"end":6067.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6073.950968749999,"end":6074.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6075.33471875,"end":6084.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6084.227843750001,"end":6084.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6084.919718749999,"end":6086.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6087.467843750001,"end":6088.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6090.38721875,"end":6092.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6093.10409375,"end":6099.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6099.24659375,"end":6099.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6101.11971875,"end":6102.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6104.055968750001,"end":6107.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6107.852843750001,"end":6111.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6111.21096875,"end":6111.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6111.71721875,"end":6112.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6112.51034375,"end":6113.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6113.03346875,"end":6113.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6113.11784375,"end":6113.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6113.6747187500005,"end":6113.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6113.69159375,"end":6114.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6114.6365937499995,"end":6126.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6119.31096875,"end":6119.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6121.217843750001,"end":6122.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6122.55096875,"end":6122.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6123.00659375,"end":6123.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6124.255343750001,"end":6125.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6126.38159375,"end":6129.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6129.554093750001,"end":6131.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6130.5497187500005,"end":6132.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6132.57471875,"end":6141.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6139.51034375,"end":6141.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6141.737843750001,"end":6143.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6144.842843750001,"end":6147.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6148.23471875,"end":6149.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6149.58471875,"end":6151.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6153.651593750001,"end":6154.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6154.93409375,"end":6157.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6158.46096875,"end":6158.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6159.20346875,"end":6160.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6161.54909375,"end":6163.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6163.388468749999,"end":6167.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6167.607218749999,"end":6167.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":6167.624093750001,"end":6167.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6167.69159375,"end":6167.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6167.72534375,"end":6168.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6168.38346875,"end":6172.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6172.83846875,"end":6172.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6172.88909375,"end":6172.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6172.956593750001,"end":6174.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6176.36534375,"end":6178.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6178.4072187500005,"end":6182.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6183.72284375,"end":6185.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6185.69721875,"end":6190.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6192.10971875,"end":6193.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6194.759093750001,"end":6195.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6196.14284375,"end":6198.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6200.479718750001,"end":6205.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6206.31846875,"end":6207.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6208.394093750001,"end":6209.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6210.4022187499995,"end":6211.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6212.64659375,"end":6213.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6214.013468749999,"end":6214.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6215.279093749999,"end":6215.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6215.7684687500005,"end":6217.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6218.11409375,"end":6220.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6221.100968750001,"end":6223.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6224.17221875,"end":6226.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6226.872218750001,"end":6227.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6228.779093749999,"end":6229.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6230.50034375,"end":6231.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6233.08221875,"end":6239.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6240.186593750001,"end":6243.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6244.69221875,"end":6245.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6246.81846875,"end":6247.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6247.071593750001,"end":6247.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6247.98284375,"end":6251.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6248.50596875,"end":6249.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6251.91471875,"end":6251.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6251.948468750001,"end":6252.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6252.319718750001,"end":6253.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6252.6572187500005,"end":6258.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6258.7997187500005,"end":6258.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6258.81659375,"end":6259.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6259.55909375,"end":6262.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6262.41096875,"end":6263.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6264.80721875,"end":6266.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6267.62534375,"end":6268.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6268.6209687499995,"end":6280.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6279.404093749999,"end":6279.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6279.57284375,"end":6279.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6279.75846875,"end":6279.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6280.61909375,"end":6281.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6282.171593749999,"end":6282.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6282.1884687500005,"end":6286.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6299.249093750001,"end":6303.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6302.472218750001,"end":6303.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6303.77159375,"end":6303.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6303.85596875,"end":6303.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6304.311593750001,"end":6304.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6306.555968750001,"end":6308.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6308.91846875,"end":6309.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6315.972218750001,"end":6319.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6320.477843750001,"end":6326.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6326.40096875,"end":6329.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6328.03784375,"end":6328.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6329.59034375,"end":6334.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6329.72534375,"end":6330.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":6333.11721875,"end":6334.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":6334.93971875,"end":6364.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6363.76221875,"end":6364.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6365.061593750001,"end":6367.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":6368.30159375,"end":6374.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6374.73096875,"end":6375.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6376.215968750001,"end":6377.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6377.97096875,"end":6380.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6381.362843750001,"end":6385.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6387.319718750001,"end":6390.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6390.76221875,"end":6392.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6392.78721875,"end":6394.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6394.7615937499995,"end":6396.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6397.69784375,"end":6400.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6401.106593750001,"end":6402.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6403.6884687500005,"end":6408.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6409.257218750001,"end":6409.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6409.5272187499995,"end":6415.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6416.564093750001,"end":6424.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6424.46159375,"end":6432.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6433.860968750001,"end":6435.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6435.497843749999,"end":6440.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6441.454718750001,"end":6445.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6446.02784375,"end":6448.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6448.7615937499995,"end":6450.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6450.90471875,"end":6450.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6450.921593749999,"end":6451.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6452.03534375,"end":6452.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6452.08596875,"end":6452.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6452.17034375,"end":6452.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6452.30534375,"end":6456.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":6456.43971875,"end":6456.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6456.591593749999,"end":6458.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6458.81909375,"end":6461.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6463.122218750001,"end":6464.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6465.29909375,"end":6465.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6465.77159375,"end":6476.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6477.21284375,"end":6479.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6479.96346875,"end":6481.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6482.1572187500005,"end":6485.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6485.9540937500005,"end":6498.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6498.28971875,"end":6498.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6499.18409375,"end":6504.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6504.66846875,"end":6511.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6512.700968749999,"end":6515.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6516.497843749999,"end":6520.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6521.25659375,"end":6525.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6526.09971875,"end":6532.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6534.0478437500005,"end":6551.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6551.78346875,"end":6556.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6556.862843750001,"end":6558.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6559.61346875,"end":6561.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6561.925343750001,"end":6563.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6563.88284375,"end":6570.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6570.835343750001,"end":6573.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6574.109093749999,"end":6582.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6583.170968750001,"end":6584.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6584.79096875,"end":6588.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6588.67221875,"end":6591.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6592.09784375,"end":6594.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6595.810343749999,"end":6598.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6599.35409375,"end":6607.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6608.5340937500005,"end":6609.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6609.7997187500005,"end":6615.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6615.85784375,"end":6616.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6616.920968750001,"end":6618.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6618.81096875,"end":6620.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6620.92034375,"end":6622.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6623.046593749999,"end":6626.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6626.97846875,"end":6628.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6628.9697187500005,"end":6652.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6638.92596875,"end":6639.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6650.63721875,"end":6650.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":6650.654093749999,"end":6650.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6650.97471875,"end":6651.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6652.763468749999,"end":6665.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6663.5634687500005,"end":6665.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6666.06096875,"end":6667.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6667.32659375,"end":6669.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6669.52034375,"end":6669.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6669.739718750001,"end":6682.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6677.232218749999,"end":6678.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6678.02534375,"end":6678.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6678.970343750001,"end":6679.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6679.03784375,"end":6679.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6681.2822187500005,"end":6681.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6682.581593750001,"end":6682.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6682.59846875,"end":6682.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6682.66596875,"end":6688.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6683.40846875,"end":6683.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6688.70721875,"end":6688.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6688.74096875,"end":6689.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6689.12909375,"end":6691.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6689.145968750001,"end":6689.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6691.997843749999,"end":6692.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6692.520968750001,"end":6696.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6697.17846875,"end":6697.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6698.96721875,"end":6700.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6701.852843750001,"end":6702.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6703.42221875,"end":6711.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6712.36596875,"end":6721.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6721.98471875,"end":6724.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6724.9715937500005,"end":6727.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6728.279093749999,"end":6730.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6730.75971875,"end":6731.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6731.8397187499995,"end":6738.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6731.856593750001,"end":6731.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6738.370343750001,"end":6739.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6740.04096875,"end":6760.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6760.679093750001,"end":6767.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6767.78346875,"end":6767.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6767.81721875,"end":6768.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6768.137843750001,"end":6774.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6775.2928437499995,"end":6784.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6784.624718749999,"end":6784.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6784.97909375,"end":6786.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6787.56096875,"end":6814.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6814.679093750001,"end":6819.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6814.915343750001,"end":6814.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6819.20159375,"end":6819.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6819.33659375,"end":6819.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6819.454718750001,"end":6825.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6823.99409375,"end":6825.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6825.7997187500005,"end":6830.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6825.81659375,"end":6825.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6831.09846875,"end":6838.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6838.6415937500005,"end":6844.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6844.88534375,"end":6851.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6851.5340937500005,"end":6851.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":6851.618468750001,"end":6851.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6851.73659375,"end":6860.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":6851.78721875,"end":6851.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6861.30471875,"end":6862.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6863.22846875,"end":6866.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6866.991593750001,"end":6872.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6872.189093750001,"end":6872.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6872.54346875,"end":6876.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6876.67784375,"end":6880.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6881.6053437499995,"end":6889.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6889.99221875,"end":6892.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6893.384093750001,"end":6895.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6895.74659375,"end":6899.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6899.6278437500005,"end":6899.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6899.77971875,"end":6901.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6901.09596875,"end":6901.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6901.349093750001,"end":6902.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6904.13346875,"end":6907.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6907.120343750001,"end":6915.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6915.929093750001,"end":6924.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6924.923468750001,"end":6926.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6926.189093750001,"end":6932.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6933.42846875,"end":6937.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6938.92971875,"end":6958.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6958.70721875,"end":6962.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6962.706593750001,"end":6973.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6974.232218749999,"end":6980.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6980.526593750001,"end":6980.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6980.948468750001,"end":6983.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6983.1590937500005,"end":6984.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6984.44159375,"end":6985.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6985.2684687500005,"end":6985.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6990.61784375,"end":6991.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6991.42784375,"end":6992.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6992.760968750001,"end":6994.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6994.3134687500005,"end":7000.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7000.860968750001,"end":7000.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7011.07034375,"end":7013.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7014.934718750001,"end":7015.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7021.3134687500005,"end":7023.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7022.1572187500005,"end":7022.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7022.35971875,"end":7022.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7022.477843750001,"end":7022.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7023.54096875,"end":7029.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7029.86909375,"end":7030.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7030.00409375,"end":7041.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":7030.03784375,"end":7030.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7042.71096875,"end":7049.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7049.96721875,"end":7058.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7059.501593750001,"end":7063.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7063.028468750001,"end":7063.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7064.1590937500005,"end":7079.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7070.30159375,"end":7070.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7070.74034375,"end":7070.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7078.57034375,"end":7079.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7080.173468750001,"end":7081.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7081.5740937499995,"end":7085.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7085.2528437500005,"end":7110.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7111.05471875,"end":7122.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7122.647843750001,"end":7131.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7131.52409375,"end":7141.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7141.56471875,"end":7152.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7152.80346875,"end":7169.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7169.40846875,"end":7188.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7188.6122187500005,"end":7221.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7220.624093750001,"end":7222.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7223.999093750001,"end":7224.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7224.01596875,"end":7226.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7227.20534375,"end":7228.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7229.280968750001,"end":7230.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7230.63096875,"end":7249.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7250.6278437500005,"end":7267.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7266.54096875,"end":7269.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7269.05534375,"end":7272.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7272.784718750001,"end":7285.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7285.626593750001,"end":7288.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7288.7147187499995,"end":7305.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7306.112843750001,"end":7309.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7309.60596875,"end":7317.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7318.19534375,"end":7348.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7348.401593750001,"end":7367.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7367.03159375,"end":7413.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7413.370343750001,"end":7424.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7424.40659375,"end":7427.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7429.04721875,"end":7430.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7430.8865937499995,"end":7432.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7432.4559687500005,"end":7435.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7435.51034375,"end":7442.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7442.26034375,"end":7443.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7443.509093750001,"end":7450.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7450.815968750001,"end":7457.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7457.565968750001,"end":7465.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7465.733468750001,"end":7473.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7473.66471875,"end":7473.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7473.968468750001,"end":7477.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7477.3603437500005,"end":7489.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7489.93221875,"end":7491.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7491.72096875,"end":7492.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7492.294718749999,"end":7499.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7500.66471875,"end":7506.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7506.99284375,"end":7514.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7514.97471875,"end":7536.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7536.72659375,"end":7538.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7539.747218750001,"end":7548.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7548.75846875,"end":7552.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7552.99409375,"end":7553.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7553.989718750001,"end":7554.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7555.18784375,"end":7558.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7559.001593750001,"end":7561.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7562.22471875,"end":7589.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7589.07284375,"end":7592.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7591.671593750001,"end":7591.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7592.16096875,"end":7600.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7601.003468750001,"end":7604.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7604.36159375,"end":7604.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7617.085343750001,"end":7618.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7619.21159375,"end":7619.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7622.940968750001,"end":7623.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7624.341593749999,"end":7625.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7627.04159375,"end":7627.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7628.07096875,"end":7628.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7634.50034375,"end":7636.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7637.21721875,"end":7657.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7658.108468750001,"end":7661.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7662.20909375,"end":7665.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7665.95534375,"end":7667.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7667.997218750001,"end":7669.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7669.98846875,"end":7671.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7672.350968750001,"end":7675.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7676.02971875,"end":7677.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7677.90284375,"end":7678.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7679.202218750001,"end":7680.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7680.6365937499995,"end":7683.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7684.14659375,"end":7684.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7684.88909375,"end":7686.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7686.745343750001,"end":7687.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7687.97721875,"end":7688.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7688.92221875,"end":7692.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7693.208468750001,"end":7699.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7700.565968750001,"end":7702.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7702.827218750001,"end":7704.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7705.4090937500005,"end":7707.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7707.85596875,"end":7708.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7709.02034375,"end":7711.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7712.1590937500005,"end":7722.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7722.739718750001,"end":7729.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7729.52346875,"end":7729.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7729.590968750001,"end":7741.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7741.08284375,"end":7745.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7746.044093750001,"end":7747.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7747.545968750001,"end":7749.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7749.57096875,"end":7751.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7751.46096875,"end":7752.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7752.91221875,"end":7753.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7754.07659375,"end":7755.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7755.86534375,"end":7757.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7758.464093750001,"end":7760.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7760.82659375,"end":7762.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7763.02034375,"end":7763.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7764.62346875,"end":7767.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7767.559718750001,"end":7768.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7769.061593750001,"end":7770.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7770.66471875,"end":7776.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7776.58784375,"end":7778.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7778.49471875,"end":7779.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7781.194718750001,"end":7781.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7782.20721875,"end":7782.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7783.067843750001,"end":7785.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7785.80159375,"end":7789.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7790.35784375,"end":7795.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7795.6903437500005,"end":7797.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7797.968468750001,"end":7798.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7798.89659375,"end":7801.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7802.153468750001,"end":7802.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7803.53721875,"end":7804.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7804.499093750001,"end":7805.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7805.62971875,"end":7807.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7808.093468750001,"end":7808.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7808.802218750001,"end":7811.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7811.82284375,"end":7812.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7812.919718749999,"end":7813.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7813.71284375,"end":7815.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7815.9403437500005,"end":7819.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7819.41659375,"end":7820.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7820.564093750001,"end":7821.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7821.981593750001,"end":7823.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7823.483468750001,"end":7828.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7828.950968749999,"end":7839.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7839.43034375,"end":7847.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7847.96909375,"end":7849.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7850.31471875,"end":7851.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7852.778468750001,"end":7853.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7854.19596875,"end":7855.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7855.69784375,"end":7856.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7857.35159375,"end":7858.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7858.769093750001,"end":7860.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7860.10221875,"end":7860.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7861.89096875,"end":7865.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7865.31659375,"end":7866.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7868.03346875,"end":7868.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7870.83471875,"end":7871.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7871.50971875,"end":7871.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7873.38284375,"end":7874.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7874.78346875,"end":7876.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7876.724093750001,"end":7889.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7890.561593750001,"end":7891.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7892.11409375,"end":7893.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7893.548468750001,"end":7895.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7896.265343750001,"end":7897.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7897.41284375,"end":7901.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7902.23909375,"end":7902.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7903.0322187500005,"end":7911.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7911.216593749999,"end":7921.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7921.5272187499995,"end":7923.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7923.48471875,"end":7927.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7928.39534375,"end":7929.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7930.538468750001,"end":7933.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7933.575968749999,"end":7934.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7934.82471875,"end":7935.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7937.102843750001,"end":7945.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7947.81846875,"end":8003.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8004.11346875,"end":8011.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8011.909718750001,"end":8023.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8023.18221875,"end":8026.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8026.827218750001,"end":8035.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8035.399718750001,"end":8038.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8038.8084687499995,"end":8041.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8041.42409375,"end":8050.857218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8051.12721875,"end":8052.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8052.460343750001,"end":8054.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8054.87346875,"end":8056.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8057.050343750001,"end":8058.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8058.72096875,"end":8062.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8062.70346875,"end":8064.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8064.91409375,"end":8065.622843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8066.804093750001,"end":8067.310343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8067.90096875,"end":8068.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8069.08221875,"end":8070.263468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8070.56721875,"end":8072.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8072.659718750001,"end":8073.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8073.52034375,"end":8074.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8075.427218750001,"end":8076.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8076.99659375,"end":8077.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8078.329718750001,"end":8080.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8080.9959687499995,"end":8081.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8082.227843750001,"end":8084.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8084.64096875,"end":8089.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8089.0790937500005,"end":8090.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8091.20534375,"end":8096.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8096.841593750001,"end":8099.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8099.69346875,"end":8100.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8101.161593750001,"end":8101.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8102.106593750001,"end":8102.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8103.06846875,"end":8104.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8105.515343750001,"end":8106.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8107.354718750001,"end":8108.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8109.362843750001,"end":8111.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8111.50596875,"end":8111.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8112.33284375,"end":8115.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8116.112843750001,"end":8116.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8117.39534375,"end":8118.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8118.9647187499995,"end":8120.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8121.310343750001,"end":8123.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8123.74034375,"end":8124.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8125.22534375,"end":8126.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8127.4697187500005,"end":8128.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8128.80284375,"end":8130.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8130.456593750001,"end":8132.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8133.34221875,"end":8134.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8134.624718750001,"end":8136.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8136.497843750001,"end":8140.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8140.159718750001,"end":8142.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8143.18034375,"end":8147.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8147.41596875,"end":8148.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8149.170968750001,"end":8150.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8150.622218750001,"end":8152.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8152.7147187499995,"end":8153.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8154.06471875,"end":8155.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8155.56659375,"end":8156.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8157.6590937500005,"end":8160.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8160.780968750001,"end":8166.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8166.61971875,"end":8169.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8169.8934687500005,"end":8171.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8171.850968750001,"end":8173.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8174.196593750001,"end":8175.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8176.00221875,"end":8179.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8179.3603437500005,"end":8180.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8181.43596875,"end":8182.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8183.12346875,"end":8185.857218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8185.97534375,"end":8187.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8188.067843750001,"end":8188.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8189.08034375,"end":8189.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8189.940968750001,"end":8190.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8190.85221875,"end":8192.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8192.65784375,"end":8193.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8194.66596875,"end":8195.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8195.374718750001,"end":8195.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8196.134093749999,"end":8196.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8197.500968750002,"end":8198.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8198.56409375,"end":8200.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8200.926593750002,"end":8201.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8201.601593750001,"end":8203.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8203.27221875,"end":8205.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8206.20846875,"end":8207.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8207.929718750001,"end":8208.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8208.65534375,"end":8210.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8211.43971875,"end":8213.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8214.66284375,"end":8216.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8216.08034375,"end":8216.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8216.586593750002,"end":8217.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8217.24471875,"end":8223.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8225.226593750001,"end":8226.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8226.74534375,"end":8231.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8231.95971875,"end":8232.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8233.42784375,"end":8236.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8236.95471875,"end":8237.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8237.64659375,"end":8238.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8238.827843750001,"end":8240.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8240.44784375,"end":8241.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8242.422218750002,"end":8244.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8244.700343750003,"end":8247.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8248.63221875,"end":8250.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8250.92721875,"end":8251.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8252.14221875,"end":8253.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8254.437218750001,"end":8256.462218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8256.78284375,"end":8257.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8258.183468750001,"end":8259.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8259.60096875,"end":8262.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8262.992843750002,"end":8263.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8264.089718750001,"end":8265.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8265.405968750001,"end":8266.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8266.587218749999,"end":8268.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8269.55721875,"end":8271.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8271.379718750002,"end":8274.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8275.969718750002,"end":8276.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8277.269093750001,"end":8279.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8280.019718750002,"end":8281.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8281.977218750002,"end":8282.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8283.05721875,"end":8284.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8284.879718750002,"end":8286.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8286.465968750003,"end":8287.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8288.91284375,"end":8289.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8290.144718750002,"end":8290.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8290.988468750002,"end":8291.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8292.034718750001,"end":8292.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8293.06409375,"end":8295.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8295.88221875,"end":8296.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8297.08034375,"end":8298.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8298.56534375,"end":8299.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8300.13471875,"end":8301.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8301.87284375,"end":8302.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8303.45909375,"end":8306.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8307.492218750001,"end":8308.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8308.808468750001,"end":8310.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8310.74909375,"end":8311.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8312.250968750002,"end":8313.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8313.68534375,"end":8315.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8315.54159375,"end":8317.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8317.364093750002,"end":8321.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8322.780968750001,"end":8323.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8323.742843750002,"end":8324.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8324.65409375,"end":8327.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8328.19784375,"end":8329.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8329.379093750002,"end":8330.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8330.594093750002,"end":8331.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8331.977843750003,"end":8340.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8341.17471875,"end":8342.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8343.16596875,"end":8343.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8344.97159375,"end":8346.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8346.54096875,"end":8347.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8347.75596875,"end":8348.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8348.532218750002,"end":8349.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8349.39284375,"end":8349.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8350.60784375,"end":8351.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8351.957843750002,"end":8352.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8352.784718750001,"end":8363.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8363.63534375,"end":8364.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8365.06971875,"end":8366.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8367.617843750002,"end":8368.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8368.832843750002,"end":8369.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8369.524718750003,"end":8370.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8370.992843750002,"end":8371.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8372.190968750001,"end":8373.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8374.03034375,"end":8374.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8374.97534375,"end":8376.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8376.39284375,"end":8377.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8377.45596875,"end":8379.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8379.49784375,"end":8379.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8380.071593750003,"end":8381.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8381.894093750001,"end":8382.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8383.277843750002,"end":8384.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8384.340968750003,"end":8385.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8385.640343750001,"end":8387.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8388.390968750002,"end":8390.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8391.05721875,"end":8395.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8395.259093750003,"end":8396.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8397.13221875,"end":8398.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8398.347218750001,"end":8398.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8399.511593750001,"end":8400.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8401.469093750002,"end":8404.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8404.35471875,"end":8405.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8405.535968750002,"end":8406.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8408.168468750002,"end":8409.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8409.754718750002,"end":8410.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8411.13846875,"end":8411.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8412.25221875,"end":8413.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8413.19721875,"end":8413.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8414.665343750003,"end":8415.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8416.58909375,"end":8417.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8418.023468750001,"end":8418.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8419.508468750002,"end":8421.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8421.31409375,"end":8422.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8422.309718750003,"end":8423.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8423.69346875,"end":8425.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8426.899718750003,"end":8429.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8429.80221875,"end":8431.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8431.35471875,"end":8431.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8432.33346875,"end":8432.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8433.91971875,"end":8434.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8434.40909375,"end":8435.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8435.539718750002,"end":8438.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8439.218468750001,"end":8441.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8442.070343750001,"end":8444.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8444.68596875,"end":8445.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8446.339718750001,"end":8447.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8447.402843750002,"end":8448.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8449.680968750003,"end":8450.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8451.16596875,"end":8452.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8452.70159375,"end":8453.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8454.051593750002,"end":8455.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8455.418468750002,"end":8465.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8466.20159375,"end":8468.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8468.969093750002,"end":8470.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8471.652218750001,"end":8472.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8472.445343750001,"end":8472.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8472.546593750001,"end":8472.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8472.63096875,"end":8472.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8472.64784375,"end":8474.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8474.68971875,"end":8485.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8485.92846875,"end":8485.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8485.945343750001,"end":8486.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8487.71721875,"end":8488.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8488.172843750002,"end":8488.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8489.25284375,"end":8492.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8518.480343750001,"end":8524.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":8522.19284375,"end":8522.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":8524.47096875,"end":8524.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8524.487843750001,"end":8525.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":8525.972843750002,"end":8527.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":8527.12034375,"end":8527.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":8527.47471875,"end":8527.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8528.74034375,"end":8528.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8528.75721875,"end":8528.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8528.84159375,"end":8528.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8528.89221875,"end":8528.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8528.90909375,"end":8528.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8528.95971875,"end":8529.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8529.01034375,"end":8529.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8529.415343750003,"end":8529.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8529.43221875,"end":8529.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8529.465968750003,"end":8529.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8529.617843750002,"end":8530.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8529.63471875,"end":8530.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8530.090343750002,"end":8530.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8530.343468750001,"end":8530.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8530.37721875,"end":8531.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8531.59221875,"end":8532.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8532.90846875,"end":8533.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":8537.785343750002,"end":8540.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8670.59159375,"end":8670.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8670.65909375,"end":8671.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8671.570343750001,"end":8672.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8673.29159375,"end":8673.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8673.747218750003,"end":8673.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8674.06784375,"end":8674.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":8674.169093750003,"end":8674.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9090.070343750001,"end":9092.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9093.124718750001,"end":9094.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9103.43534375,"end":9107.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9107.586593750002,"end":9108.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9117.88034375,"end":9187.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9119.63534375,"end":9119.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9119.669093750003,"end":9119.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9119.73659375,"end":9119.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9187.87784375,"end":9193.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9189.059093750002,"end":9189.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9192.97409375,"end":9212.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9212.430968750003,"end":9262.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9227.31471875,"end":9228.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9263.49471875,"end":9308.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9306.542843750001,"end":9359.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9308.90534375,"end":9309.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9320.144093750001,"end":9320.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9320.17784375,"end":9320.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9320.211593750002,"end":9320.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9329.222843750002,"end":9329.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9347.835968750001,"end":9348.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9359.53034375,"end":9390.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9390.78284375,"end":9418.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9402.59534375,"end":9402.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9402.61221875,"end":9404.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9404.40096875,"end":9405.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9405.02534375,"end":9405.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9418.035968750002,"end":9420.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9420.044093750003,"end":9420.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9420.347843750002,"end":9420.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9420.36471875,"end":9428.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9428.97096875,"end":9449.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9450.250343750002,"end":9460.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9460.746593750002,"end":9483.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9483.96659375,"end":9499.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9499.727843750003,"end":9500.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9500.74034375,"end":9503.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9500.75721875,"end":9500.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9504.672218750002,"end":9542.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9542.57346875,"end":9543.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9543.164093750001,"end":9567.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9554.68971875,"end":9554.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9567.34596875,"end":9596.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9596.759093750003,"end":9597.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9597.164093750001,"end":9598.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9598.125968750002,"end":9598.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9598.159718750001,"end":9598.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9598.800968750002,"end":9598.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9598.969718750002,"end":9630.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9631.082843750002,"end":9658.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9634.27221875,"end":9634.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9656.63159375,"end":9657.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9658.25159375,"end":9668.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9667.094093750002,"end":9668.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9668.37659375,"end":9668.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9668.680343750002,"end":9668.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9668.84909375,"end":9669.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9671.75159375,"end":9676.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9685.52159375,"end":9690.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9689.554718750001,"end":9690.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9690.70221875,"end":9691.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9691.44471875,"end":9691.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9691.47846875,"end":9692.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9691.49534375,"end":9692.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9699.696593750003,"end":9773.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9700.50659375,"end":9700.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9774.368468750003,"end":9783.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9783.430343750002,"end":9793.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9794.247218750003,"end":9802.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9802.465343750002,"end":9804.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9804.777218750001,"end":9812.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9812.640968750002,"end":9813.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9813.383468750002,"end":9813.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9813.97409375,"end":9819.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9819.019718750002,"end":9827.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9827.71034375,"end":9839.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9838.71284375,"end":9840.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9840.265343750001,"end":9848.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9848.78721875,"end":9850.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9851.01471875,"end":9861.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9861.13971875,"end":9871.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9865.88159375,"end":9866.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9871.68659375,"end":9875.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9875.297843750002,"end":9875.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9875.93909375,"end":9881.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9877.99784375,"end":9878.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9881.524718750003,"end":9881.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9881.997218750003,"end":9882.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9882.030968750001,"end":9884.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9884.71409375,"end":9913.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9913.671593750001,"end":9919.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9919.645343750002,"end":9929.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9929.36534375,"end":9935.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9935.609093750001,"end":9935.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9935.625968750002,"end":9935.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9935.96346875,"end":9970.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9970.624718750001,"end":9979.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9980.867843750002,"end":9982.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9982.72409375,"end":9989.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9989.355968750002,"end":9995.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":9994.11471875,"end":9999.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9999.160343750002,"end":10019.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10009.47096875,"end":10009.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10019.34284375,"end":10024.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10025.23221875,"end":10062.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10062.57659375,"end":10082.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10073.258468750002,"end":10073.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10081.98284375,"end":10088.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10089.25596875,"end":10102.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10102.92471875,"end":10106.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10106.485343750002,"end":10106.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":10106.50221875,"end":10106.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10106.99159375,"end":10107.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10107.02534375,"end":10107.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10107.750968750002,"end":10107.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":10107.88596875,"end":10107.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10107.97034375,"end":10108.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":10108.03784375,"end":10110.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":10110.97409375,"end":10133.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10133.67096875,"end":10145.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":10144.808468750001,"end":10163.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10162.51034375,"end":10172.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":10170.610343750002,"end":10170.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10170.964718750001,"end":10171.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":10171.04909375,"end":10171.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10171.36971875,"end":10171.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":10171.504718750002,"end":10171.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10171.62284375,"end":10171.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10173.00659375,"end":10173.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10173.023468750001,"end":10176.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10173.95159375,"end":10174.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10176.80346875,"end":10186.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10187.265968750002,"end":10189.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10189.105343750001,"end":10200.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10200.867218750001,"end":10202.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10202.504093750002,"end":10210.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10205.27159375,"end":10205.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10209.777218750001,"end":10214.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":10214.75534375,"end":10224.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10222.99034375,"end":10224.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10228.559093750002,"end":10232.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10232.86221875,"end":10232.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10239.055343750002,"end":10240.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10241.02971875,"end":10243.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10243.527218750001,"end":10244.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10244.50596875,"end":10245.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10251.390968750002,"end":10256.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10257.06096875,"end":10265.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10266.207218750002,"end":10269.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10269.83534375,"end":10279.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10279.84221875,"end":10280.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10281.445343750001,"end":10282.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10284.820343750001,"end":10287.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10288.414718750002,"end":10294.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10295.265968750002,"end":10298.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10299.265343750001,"end":10300.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10301.66159375,"end":10303.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10304.344718750002,"end":10305.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10306.53846875,"end":10307.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10307.48346875,"end":10309.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10309.559093750002,"end":10312.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10312.090343750002,"end":10312.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10313.05221875,"end":10314.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10313.102843750003,"end":10316.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10315.262843750003,"end":10321.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10322.33346875,"end":10329.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10330.433468750001,"end":10331.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10332.03659375,"end":10335.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10335.52971875,"end":10338.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10339.242218750001,"end":10342.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10344.051593750002,"end":10349.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10350.210968750001,"end":10350.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10350.54846875,"end":10352.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10350.56534375,"end":10350.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10352.87721875,"end":10355.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10357.028468750003,"end":10360.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10360.875968750002,"end":10366.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10366.96784375,"end":10368.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10369.212218750003,"end":10375.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10375.72596875,"end":10377.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10377.801593750002,"end":10378.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10379.57346875,"end":10380.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10381.98659375,"end":10383.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10384.51784375,"end":10385.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10385.496593750002,"end":10398.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10399.840343750002,"end":10401.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10402.962218750003,"end":10405.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10406.10096875,"end":10409.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10410.10034375,"end":10410.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10411.450343750003,"end":10414.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10414.36971875,"end":10415.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10415.85471875,"end":10419.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10420.42784375,"end":10422.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10423.81971875,"end":10425.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10426.53659375,"end":10427.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10428.12284375,"end":10431.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10432.56096875,"end":10433.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10434.332843750002,"end":10439.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10439.83409375,"end":10441.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10442.247218750003,"end":10443.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10443.495968750001,"end":10446.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10447.039718750002,"end":10447.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10447.15784375,"end":10449.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10450.094093750002,"end":10452.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10453.70534375,"end":10459.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10460.30346875,"end":10462.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10462.93596875,"end":10464.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10465.19721875,"end":10466.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10466.68221875,"end":10469.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10469.922218750002,"end":10472.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10473.516593750002,"end":10476.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10476.925343750001,"end":10481.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10482.105968750002,"end":10484.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10485.278468750003,"end":10488.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10488.34971875,"end":10493.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10493.46284375,"end":10496.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10497.344093750002,"end":10501.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10502.153468750003,"end":10507.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10507.249718750001,"end":10509.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10510.219718750002,"end":10513.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10513.949093750001,"end":10516.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10517.222843750002,"end":10521.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10521.82971875,"end":10523.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10524.141593750002,"end":10527.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10527.73596875,"end":10528.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10529.187218750001,"end":10531.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10531.836593750002,"end":10532.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10532.984093750001,"end":10536.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10537.81034375,"end":10542.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10543.530968750001,"end":10544.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10544.745968750001,"end":10547.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10548.087218750003,"end":10549.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10550.145968750003,"end":10552.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10553.21721875,"end":10555.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10555.32659375,"end":10557.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10557.55409375,"end":10558.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10558.617218750001,"end":10560.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10560.60846875,"end":10562.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10563.61221875,"end":10566.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10566.430343750002,"end":10568.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10568.961593750002,"end":10570.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10570.51409375,"end":10573.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10574.31096875,"end":10576.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10577.567843750003,"end":10579.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10580.90909375,"end":10584.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10585.414718750002,"end":10587.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10588.570343750001,"end":10589.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10590.696593750003,"end":10597.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10597.598468750002,"end":10599.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10600.079093750002,"end":10601.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10601.699093750001,"end":10608.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10609.52909375,"end":10611.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10612.54971875,"end":10618.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10618.574093750001,"end":10619.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10621.39221875,"end":10621.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10622.050343750001,"end":10622.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10623.09659375,"end":10624.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10624.868468750003,"end":10625.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10625.98221875,"end":10629.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10629.762218750002,"end":10633.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10634.33534375,"end":10637.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10638.149093750002,"end":10640.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10641.08534375,"end":10642.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10643.34659375,"end":10645.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10646.215343750002,"end":10647.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10648.34159375,"end":10650.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10651.007843750001,"end":10653.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10654.68659375,"end":10656.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10657.09971875,"end":10658.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10658.702843750001,"end":10661.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10662.195968750002,"end":10663.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10663.360343750002,"end":10667.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10668.06846875,"end":10674.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10675.172843750002,"end":10677.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10678.159718750001,"end":10681.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10682.327843750001,"end":10683.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10684.21784375,"end":10685.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10686.05721875,"end":10688.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10689.145343750002,"end":10691.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10692.18284375,"end":10694.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10694.76471875,"end":10696.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10697.02596875,"end":10699.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10700.012843750003,"end":10700.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10701.177218750003,"end":10705.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10705.61534375,"end":10710.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10711.808468750001,"end":10714.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10715.672843750002,"end":10718.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10719.047843750002,"end":10720.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10721.39346875,"end":10723.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10723.992218750001,"end":10724.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10724.71784375,"end":10726.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10726.35471875,"end":10728.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10729.24034375,"end":10730.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10730.742218750001,"end":10732.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10733.18909375,"end":10736.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10737.120968750001,"end":10737.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10738.437218750001,"end":10741.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10741.57596875,"end":10741.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10742.26784375,"end":10742.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10742.976593750001,"end":10764.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10755.852218750002,"end":10756.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10764.67784375,"end":10765.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10765.386593750001,"end":10765.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10765.403468750003,"end":10766.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10765.42034375,"end":10766.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10766.31471875,"end":10766.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10766.58471875,"end":10768.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10768.96409375,"end":10768.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10769.84159375,"end":10780.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10779.51096875,"end":10786.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10787.290343750003,"end":10789.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10789.855343750001,"end":10792.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10793.48346875,"end":10795.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10795.457843750002,"end":10799.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10799.84534375,"end":10803.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10803.86159375,"end":10805.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10806.17346875,"end":10807.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10807.72596875,"end":10811.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10811.99534375,"end":10812.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10813.497218750003,"end":10813.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10814.08784375,"end":10814.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10815.74159375,"end":10819.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10820.247218750003,"end":10821.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10822.238468750002,"end":10825.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10825.27596875,"end":10825.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10825.512218750002,"end":10827.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10827.672218750002,"end":10831.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10832.042843750001,"end":10835.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10835.97471875,"end":10836.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10836.261593750001,"end":10841.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10841.847218750001,"end":10848.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10848.765968750002,"end":10850.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10851.58409375,"end":10853.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10854.368468750003,"end":10856.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10856.730968750002,"end":10858.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10859.02596875,"end":10859.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10859.312843750002,"end":10862.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10862.755343750003,"end":10864.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10864.34159375,"end":10864.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10864.67909375,"end":10864.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10864.88159375,"end":10866.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10867.125968750002,"end":10869.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10869.72471875,"end":10871.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10872.120968750001,"end":10874.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10875.192218750002,"end":10880.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10878.516593750002,"end":10880.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10880.997218750003,"end":10881.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10881.081593750001,"end":10881.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10882.22909375,"end":10891.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10890.66659375,"end":10904.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10895.594093750002,"end":10897.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10904.33534375,"end":10909.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10909.81971875,"end":10911.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10911.878468750001,"end":10912.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10912.03034375,"end":10912.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10912.047218750002,"end":10912.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10912.90784375,"end":10916.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10917.19409375,"end":10918.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10918.93221875,"end":10920.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10920.585968750001,"end":10922.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10922.57721875,"end":10925.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10926.42471875,"end":10930.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10931.01471875,"end":10931.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10931.099093750003,"end":10931.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10931.183468750001,"end":10932.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10932.31409375,"end":10932.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10933.02284375,"end":10933.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10933.96784375,"end":10935.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10936.212218750003,"end":10940.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10940.70096875,"end":10942.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10944.39659375,"end":10945.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10945.98284375,"end":10949.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10951.09596875,"end":10951.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10951.99034375,"end":10953.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10954.26846875,"end":10956.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10956.64784375,"end":10958.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10959.567218750002,"end":10965.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10965.70971875,"end":10977.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10978.09596875,"end":10985.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10980.390968750002,"end":10980.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10980.40784375,"end":10981.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10981.11659375,"end":10981.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10981.133468750002,"end":10981.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10983.462218750003,"end":10983.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10985.74034375,"end":10989.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10989.43596875,"end":10989.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10989.75659375,"end":10993.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10993.941593750002,"end":10996.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10996.844093750002,"end":10999.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10999.78034375,"end":11002.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11002.73346875,"end":11004.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11004.67409375,"end":11017.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11005.703468750002,"end":11005.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11017.195343750001,"end":11019.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11020.047218750002,"end":11024.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11024.92409375,"end":11029.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11031.84284375,"end":11031.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11031.859718750002,"end":11033.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11035.909718750001,"end":11038.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11045.950343750003,"end":11048.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11048.565968750001,"end":11049.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11058.79221875,"end":11068.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11060.15909375,"end":11060.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11066.132843750001,"end":11066.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11068.934093750002,"end":11069.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11069.38971875,"end":11077.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11077.33784375,"end":11167.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11086.855343750001,"end":11087.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11095.95096875,"end":11096.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11097.11534375,"end":11097.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11121.16221875,"end":11121.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11121.26346875,"end":11121.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11121.465968750003,"end":11121.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11121.550343750001,"end":11121.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11124.90846875,"end":11125.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11126.781593750002,"end":11126.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11126.849093750003,"end":11126.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11126.96721875,"end":11127.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11168.14221875,"end":11174.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11174.31846875,"end":11174.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11174.622218750003,"end":11199.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11199.47909375,"end":11210.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11211.257843750001,"end":11231.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11231.237843750001,"end":11231.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11231.659718750001,"end":11261.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11255.33534375,"end":11255.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11261.157218750002,"end":11261.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11261.49471875,"end":11271.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11271.636593750001,"end":11275.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11275.754093750002,"end":11276.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11276.024093750002,"end":11276.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11276.09159375,"end":11280.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11281.12034375,"end":11287.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11287.414718750002,"end":11288.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11288.76471875,"end":11294.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11293.945343750001,"end":11294.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11294.637218750002,"end":11294.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11294.99159375,"end":11297.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11297.438468750002,"end":11304.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11305.656593750002,"end":11311.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11305.757843750001,"end":11306.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11308.356593750003,"end":11308.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11308.37346875,"end":11308.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11311.208468750003,"end":11311.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11311.57971875,"end":11336.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11314.515968750002,"end":11314.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11315.882843750001,"end":11316.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11327.695343750001,"end":11327.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11327.712218750003,"end":11328.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11337.16221875,"end":11349.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11344.739093750002,"end":11345.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11349.329093750002,"end":11351.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11351.387843750003,"end":11353.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11352.113468750002,"end":11355.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11355.859718750002,"end":11372.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11357.58096875,"end":11357.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11357.597843750002,"end":11358.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11371.38471875,"end":11377.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11372.71784375,"end":11372.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11374.270343750002,"end":11374.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11377.864718750003,"end":11385.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11377.898468750001,"end":11378.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11378.320343750001,"end":11378.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11385.441593750002,"end":11385.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11385.711593750002,"end":11416.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11393.38971875,"end":11393.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11393.96346875,"end":11393.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11416.390343750001,"end":11440.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11440.42034375,"end":11443.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11441.04471875,"end":11441.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11443.609718750002,"end":11444.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11444.031593750002,"end":11448.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":11448.80721875,"end":11448.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11448.824093750001,"end":11449.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11449.313468750002,"end":11482.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":11459.050343750001,"end":11459.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11482.86096875,"end":11482.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11482.995968750001,"end":11483.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11483.02971875,"end":11487.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11487.82221875,"end":11519.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11492.277218750001,"end":11492.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11495.129093750002,"end":11495.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11519.98596875,"end":11542.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11542.902218750001,"end":11545.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11546.58096875,"end":11549.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11549.331593750001,"end":11550.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11550.512843750003,"end":11557.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11558.32596875,"end":11562.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11562.86534375,"end":11571.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11569.446593750003,"end":11574.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11574.863468750002,"end":11575.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11575.234718750002,"end":11581.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11575.302218750003,"end":11575.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11582.237843750001,"end":11583.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11583.26721875,"end":11583.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11583.48659375,"end":11585.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11585.32596875,"end":11585.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11585.579093750002,"end":11599.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11593.054718750001,"end":11593.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11593.155968750001,"end":11593.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11595.805343750002,"end":11595.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11595.855968750002,"end":11596.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11599.500968750002,"end":11600.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11599.61909375,"end":11601.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11602.032218750002,"end":11617.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11605.660343750002,"end":11606.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11611.97159375,"end":11611.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11611.988468750002,"end":11612.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11615.70096875,"end":11616.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11616.578468750002,"end":11616.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11617.77659375,"end":11618.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11621.910968750002,"end":11626.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11635.090343750002,"end":11640.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11638.785968750002,"end":11638.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11638.90409375,"end":11639.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11639.039093750001,"end":11639.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11641.18221875,"end":11641.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11644.01721875,"end":11645.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11650.46346875,"end":11651.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11651.695343750001,"end":11681.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11672.65409375,"end":11672.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11672.738468750002,"end":11672.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11672.97471875,"end":11673.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11681.51346875,"end":11689.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11681.68221875,"end":11681.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11681.93534375,"end":11681.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11690.035343750002,"end":11692.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11692.70159375,"end":11728.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11705.695343750001,"end":11706.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11706.87659375,"end":11707.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11728.999718750001,"end":11729.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11729.67471875,"end":11737.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11732.661593750003,"end":11733.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11733.387218750002,"end":11734.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11734.129718750002,"end":11734.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11738.196593750003,"end":11739.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11739.917843750001,"end":11740.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11740.20471875,"end":11741.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11741.47034375,"end":11741.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11741.942843750003,"end":11746.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11747.12346875,"end":11751.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11751.54471875,"end":11758.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11754.81846875,"end":11754.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11754.98721875,"end":11755.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11758.56471875,"end":11758.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11758.63221875,"end":11762.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11762.15909375,"end":11762.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11762.51346875,"end":11762.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11762.98596875,"end":11763.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11763.188468750002,"end":11771.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11766.05721875,"end":11766.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11771.676593750002,"end":11771.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11771.74409375,"end":11771.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11771.84534375,"end":11772.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11773.769093750001,"end":11776.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11776.40159375,"end":11779.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11779.574093750001,"end":11781.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11781.97034375,"end":11782.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11782.03784375,"end":11786.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11783.03346875,"end":11783.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11783.117843750002,"end":11783.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11783.20221875,"end":11783.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11783.387843750003,"end":11783.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11783.640968750002,"end":11783.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11784.50159375,"end":11784.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11786.93159375,"end":11789.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11789.31096875,"end":11789.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11789.665343750003,"end":11791.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11791.47096875,"end":11797.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11797.64721875,"end":11804.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11804.987843750001,"end":11806.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11805.29159375,"end":11815.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11806.844093750002,"end":11807.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11809.965968750003,"end":11811.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11816.378468750001,"end":11817.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11818.724093750003,"end":11824.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11825.406593750002,"end":11832.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11833.169093750003,"end":11836.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11836.544093750003,"end":11841.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11842.112843750001,"end":11843.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11844.15471875,"end":11851.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11846.247218750003,"end":11846.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":11846.972843750002,"end":11847.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11847.175343750001,"end":11847.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11851.96784375,"end":11853.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11853.80721875,"end":11856.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11856.692843750003,"end":11859.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11859.51096875,"end":11861.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11862.51471875,"end":11863.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11864.337218750003,"end":11867.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11868.117218750001,"end":11870.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11870.766593750002,"end":11872.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11872.79159375,"end":11883.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11883.777218750001,"end":11884.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11884.06409375,"end":11886.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11887.35471875,"end":11889.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11889.98721875,"end":11894.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11894.61096875,"end":11896.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11896.99034375,"end":11902.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11902.305968750003,"end":11903.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11903.90909375,"end":11905.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11906.237843750001,"end":11918.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11919.535343750002,"end":11924.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11924.817218750002,"end":11926.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11926.67346875,"end":11932.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11932.74846875,"end":11935.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11935.313468750002,"end":11937.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11937.794093750003,"end":11939.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11939.954093750002,"end":11943.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11944.51034375,"end":11946.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11947.14284375,"end":11951.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11951.969093750002,"end":11958.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11958.516593750002,"end":11964.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11964.405968750001,"end":11993.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11990.157218750002,"end":11990.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11991.034718750001,"end":11992.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11993.110343750002,"end":11993.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11993.481593750003,"end":12009.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12002.08784375,"end":12002.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12003.809093750002,"end":12004.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12007.926593750002,"end":12007.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12009.47909375,"end":12009.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12009.512843750003,"end":12009.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12009.816593750002,"end":12011.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12009.833468750003,"end":12009.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12011.16659375,"end":12011.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12011.520968750003,"end":12014.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12015.030968750001,"end":12022.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12023.23221875,"end":12026.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12026.67471875,"end":12027.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12027.332843750002,"end":12034.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12034.74096875,"end":12038.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12039.499718750001,"end":12040.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12040.731593750003,"end":12070.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12069.80721875,"end":12072.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12071.899718750003,"end":12083.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12083.20596875,"end":12083.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12084.285968750002,"end":12086.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12087.390968750002,"end":12089.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12090.192218750002,"end":12094.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12094.74846875,"end":12097.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12097.43159375,"end":12099.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12099.76034375,"end":12103.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12103.92846875,"end":12104.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12105.329093750002,"end":12108.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12109.76721875,"end":12112.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12113.00721875,"end":12114.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12115.082843750002,"end":12115.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12115.909718750001,"end":12117.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12116.399093750002,"end":12116.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12118.05284375,"end":12119.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12119.723468750002,"end":12120.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12120.094718750002,"end":12120.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12121.208468750003,"end":12129.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12129.359093750001,"end":12130.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12130.641593750002,"end":12131.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12132.54846875,"end":12133.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12133.93221875,"end":12134.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12134.99534375,"end":12141.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12141.964718750001,"end":12147.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12148.05659375,"end":12149.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12150.300968750002,"end":12151.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12152.49471875,"end":12160.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12160.375343750002,"end":12160.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12161.708468750003,"end":12165.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12165.910343750002,"end":12168.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12169.437218750001,"end":12170.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12170.702843750001,"end":12172.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12172.508468750002,"end":12174.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12175.22534375,"end":12180.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12180.16971875,"end":12180.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12181.418468750002,"end":12184.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12181.941593750002,"end":12182.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12184.793468750002,"end":12187.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12187.965968750003,"end":12188.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12189.282218750002,"end":12193.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12194.378468750001,"end":12196.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12196.875968750002,"end":12200.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12200.74034375,"end":12203.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12203.32221875,"end":12211.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12212.046593750001,"end":12215.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12215.67471875,"end":12218.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12218.712218750003,"end":12224.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12225.63096875,"end":12226.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12226.812218750001,"end":12229.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12229.90034375,"end":12231.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12230.84534375,"end":12231.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12231.70596875,"end":12232.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12232.06034375,"end":12232.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12232.11096875,"end":12232.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12232.12784375,"end":12236.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12237.02159375,"end":12240.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12240.430343750002,"end":12241.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12242.117843750002,"end":12243.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":12243.50159375,"end":12243.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12243.67034375,"end":12249.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12249.930968750003,"end":12250.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12251.331593750001,"end":12255.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12255.887843750003,"end":12256.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12256.765343750001,"end":12258.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12258.840968750003,"end":12261.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12261.574718750002,"end":12261.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12262.13159375,"end":12262.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12262.97534375,"end":12264.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12265.01721875,"end":12267.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12268.34159375,"end":12268.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12268.98284375,"end":12270.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12270.974093750003,"end":12277.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12277.454093750002,"end":12278.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12279.58034375,"end":12284.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12285.300968750002,"end":12286.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12287.81534375,"end":12289.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12290.481593750003,"end":12290.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12290.532218750002,"end":12296.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12295.645343750002,"end":12299.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12299.543468750002,"end":12300.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12300.94409375,"end":12301.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12302.547218750002,"end":12304.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12307.187843750002,"end":12311.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12312.030968750001,"end":12313.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12312.351593750001,"end":12315.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12315.97971875,"end":12320.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12316.33409375,"end":12317.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12319.86096875,"end":12322.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12322.71284375,"end":12328.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12326.98221875,"end":12329.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12330.340343750002,"end":12334.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12335.605343750001,"end":12338.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12338.895968750003,"end":12342.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12342.878468750001,"end":12343.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12344.24534375,"end":12349.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12350.117843750002,"end":12350.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12351.113468750002,"end":12353.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12353.762843750003,"end":12355.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12356.15909375,"end":12357.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12358.36971875,"end":12361.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":12362.605343750001,"end":12363.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12363.499718750001,"end":12374.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12374.65409375,"end":12375.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12376.35846875,"end":12377.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12377.72534375,"end":12380.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12380.442218750002,"end":12382.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12384.15471875,"end":12386.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12386.26409375,"end":12389.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12390.22971875,"end":12393.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12394.12784375,"end":12397.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12398.042843750001,"end":12400.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12400.81034375,"end":12405.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12405.552218750003,"end":12406.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12407.15534375,"end":12409.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12410.344718750002,"end":12411.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12411.69471875,"end":12413.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12413.820968750002,"end":12415.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12415.37346875,"end":12418.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12419.06909375,"end":12421.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12421.95471875,"end":12422.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12423.01784375,"end":12432.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12432.805343750002,"end":12434.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12434.644718750002,"end":12439.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12440.85471875,"end":12442.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12443.082218750002,"end":12444.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12444.58409375,"end":12449.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12450.08534375,"end":12450.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12451.87409375,"end":12456.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12457.071593750003,"end":12458.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12458.792843750001,"end":12459.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12459.72096875,"end":12460.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12460.36221875,"end":12461.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12462.62346875,"end":12469.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12470.16659375,"end":12472.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12474.23346875,"end":12475.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12475.80284375,"end":12476.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12477.13596875,"end":12480.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12481.169093750003,"end":12482.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":12482.046593750001,"end":12484.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12484.324718750002,"end":12492.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12492.930968750003,"end":12494.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12495.20909375,"end":12495.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":12496.356593750003,"end":12499.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":12499.664093750001,"end":12507.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12508.202843750001,"end":12510.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":12510.04221875,"end":12512.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":12513.484718750002,"end":12524.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12525.26346875,"end":12529.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12530.39346875,"end":12532.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12533.75159375,"end":12536.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12537.24471875,"end":12539.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12541.109093750001,"end":12543.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12543.589718750001,"end":12544.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12544.93971875,"end":12548.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12548.93909375,"end":12550.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12551.74034375,"end":12555.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12555.739718750003,"end":12561.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12561.949718750002,"end":12565.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12566.35409375,"end":12568.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12569.222843750002,"end":12576.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12577.289093750001,"end":12578.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12579.43221875,"end":12581.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12582.18284375,"end":12584.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12584.76471875,"end":12586.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12586.941593750002,"end":12588.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12588.477218750002,"end":12593.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12594.535343750002,"end":12598.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12599.395343750002,"end":12599.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12600.20534375,"end":12602.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12602.618468750003,"end":12606.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12606.58409375,"end":12608.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12609.672218750002,"end":12612.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12613.165343750003,"end":12614.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12614.363468750002,"end":12615.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12616.101593750001,"end":12622.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12623.020343750002,"end":12630.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12629.58471875,"end":12629.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12630.917843750001,"end":12631.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12633.870968750001,"end":12634.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12634.96784375,"end":12634.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12634.984718750002,"end":12635.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12635.00159375,"end":12635.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12635.01846875,"end":12635.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12635.575343750003,"end":12635.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12635.625968750002,"end":12637.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12637.80284375,"end":12637.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12637.81971875,"end":12640.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12640.40159375,"end":12641.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12642.86534375,"end":12645.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12646.155968750001,"end":12647.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12648.602843750003,"end":12650.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12651.04971875,"end":12651.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12652.973468750002,"end":12653.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12653.344718750002,"end":12654.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12655.032218750002,"end":12655.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12657.20909375,"end":12661.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12662.17034375,"end":12670.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12683.669093750003,"end":12685.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12685.778468750003,"end":12686.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12699.227843750003,"end":12707.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":12699.56534375,"end":12699.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12699.649718750003,"end":12700.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12701.18534375,"end":12701.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":12703.31159375,"end":12703.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12703.68284375,"end":12703.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12707.95221875,"end":12710.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12710.753468750001,"end":12714.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12715.191593750002,"end":12721.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":12721.08096875,"end":12721.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12721.485968750003,"end":12726.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12726.683468750001,"end":12732.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12732.809093750002,"end":12733.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12733.51784375,"end":12738.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12739.64346875,"end":12740.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12740.16659375,"end":12742.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12741.26346875,"end":12742.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12742.91721875,"end":12744.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12744.402218750001,"end":12747.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12746.899718750003,"end":12749.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12749.160968750002,"end":12749.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12749.19471875,"end":12749.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12750.224093750003,"end":12756.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12756.636593750001,"end":12777.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12777.426593750002,"end":12782.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12782.691593750002,"end":12821.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12821.74034375,"end":12831.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12831.54471875,"end":12842.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12843.188468750002,"end":12852.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12853.262843750003,"end":12864.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12864.906593750002,"end":12877.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12878.102843750003,"end":12881.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12881.190968750001,"end":12883.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12883.87409375,"end":12891.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12892.075343750003,"end":12892.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12893.695343750001,"end":12894.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12894.84284375,"end":12896.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12897.20534375,"end":12899.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12899.36534375,"end":12903.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12903.06096875,"end":12913.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12913.422218750002,"end":12936.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12934.617218750001,"end":12948.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12948.79221875,"end":12950.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12952.16721875,"end":12953.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12953.95596875,"end":12953.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12954.023468750001,"end":12956.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12954.074093750001,"end":12972.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12969.76784375,"end":12973.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12973.581593750001,"end":12974.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12974.47596875,"end":12990.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12991.587218750003,"end":13002.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13002.35346875,"end":13012.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13005.019718750002,"end":13005.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13006.94346875,"end":13008.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13012.562843750002,"end":13020.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13016.22471875,"end":13016.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13017.203468750002,"end":13018.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13018.77284375,"end":13018.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13020.645968750003,"end":13050.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13051.03784375,"end":13052.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13052.92784375,"end":13067.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13067.575343750003,"end":13076.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13076.40096875,"end":13098.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13099.45221875,"end":13109.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13110.35346875,"end":13112.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13112.800343750001,"end":13113.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13113.77909375,"end":13136.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13136.324093750001,"end":13143.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13143.445343750001,"end":13154.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13154.464718750001,"end":13162.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13162.176593750002,"end":13165.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13165.88909375,"end":13167.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13170.95159375,"end":13174.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13185.902843750002,"end":13187.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13187.640968750002,"end":13192.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13190.374718750001,"end":13190.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13192.551593750002,"end":13193.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13198.15409375,"end":13239.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13199.520968750003,"end":13199.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13207.671593750001,"end":13207.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":13207.92471875,"end":13207.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13239.91971875,"end":13241.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13241.97846875,"end":13247.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13247.277218750001,"end":13258.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13256.91284375,"end":13276.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13276.808468750001,"end":13281.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13283.22096875,"end":13289.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13283.81159375,"end":13283.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13284.21659375,"end":13284.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13288.08096875,"end":13288.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13288.418468750002,"end":13288.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13288.45221875,"end":13288.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13289.70096875,"end":13289.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13289.734718750002,"end":13289.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":13289.86971875,"end":13290.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13290.055343750002,"end":13300.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13300.16346875,"end":13307.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13307.622218750003,"end":13317.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13316.329718750003,"end":13321.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13322.97846875,"end":13323.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13325.543468750002,"end":13326.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13326.117218750001,"end":13328.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13328.31096875,"end":13349.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13351.598468750002,"end":13353.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13353.859718750002,"end":13369.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13369.789718750002,"end":13370.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13370.633468750002,"end":13372.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13374.210968750001,"end":13379.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13381.21409375,"end":13392.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13390.54596875,"end":13397.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13395.355343750001,"end":13395.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13397.34659375,"end":13420.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13401.801593750002,"end":13403.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":13410.188468750002,"end":13410.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13410.222218750001,"end":13410.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":13410.37409375,"end":13410.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13421.359718750002,"end":13440.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13440.344093750002,"end":13441.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13441.761593750001,"end":13446.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13447.02659375,"end":13450.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13450.739093750002,"end":13453.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13454.45159375,"end":13458.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13458.67034375,"end":13458.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13458.737843750001,"end":13458.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13458.754718750002,"end":13458.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13458.77159375,"end":13459.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13458.78846875,"end":13463.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13459.159718750001,"end":13459.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13464.69471875,"end":13486.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13485.99096875,"end":13494.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13487.796593750001,"end":13489.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13489.332218750002,"end":13489.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13489.99034375,"end":13490.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13490.04096875,"end":13490.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13490.05784375,"end":13490.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13490.15909375,"end":13490.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13496.082218750002,"end":13498.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13498.54596875,"end":13498.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13498.630343750003,"end":13503.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13498.69784375,"end":13499.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13503.254093750002,"end":13505.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13505.97096875,"end":13513.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13513.14284375,"end":13513.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13513.29471875,"end":13514.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13513.31159375,"end":13517.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13518.188468750002,"end":13529.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13529.730968750002,"end":13535.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13531.536593750003,"end":13538.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13538.337218750003,"end":13555.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13541.374718750001,"end":13541.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13555.735343750002,"end":13561.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13562.35034375,"end":13564.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13565.08409375,"end":13580.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13580.237843750001,"end":13607.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13607.32221875,"end":13607.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13609.769093750001,"end":13613.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13625.26034375,"end":13638.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13635.16596875,"end":13635.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13640.71784375,"end":13641.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13643.890343750001,"end":13646.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13647.29909375,"end":13648.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13649.52659375,"end":13651.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13662.53721875,"end":13663.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13665.97971875,"end":13667.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13681.234718750002,"end":13681.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13681.84221875,"end":13683.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13682.601593750001,"end":13684.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13683.141593750002,"end":13683.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13683.175343750001,"end":13683.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":13683.192218750002,"end":13683.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13683.293468750002,"end":13683.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13686.65159375,"end":13687.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13687.17471875,"end":13687.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13691.106593750003,"end":13691.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13691.12346875,"end":13691.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13694.110343750002,"end":13696.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13701.754718750002,"end":13702.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13702.68284375,"end":13703.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13703.98221875,"end":13707.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13704.015968750002,"end":13704.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13704.977843750003,"end":13714.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13707.89721875,"end":13707.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13715.828468750002,"end":13717.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13717.90409375,"end":13718.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13719.034718750001,"end":13721.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13723.371593750002,"end":13725.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13723.641593750002,"end":13723.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13723.97909375,"end":13724.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13724.02971875,"end":13724.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13724.063468750002,"end":13724.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13724.13096875,"end":13724.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13724.23221875,"end":13724.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13724.789093750001,"end":13724.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13724.87346875,"end":13727.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":13727.97846875,"end":13728.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13728.88971875,"end":13729.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13729.969718750002,"end":13730.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13730.594093750002,"end":13730.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13730.93159375,"end":13730.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13730.99909375,"end":13735.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13735.707218750002,"end":13736.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13737.58034375,"end":13740.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13741.461593750002,"end":13746.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13747.215968750003,"end":13747.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13748.093468750001,"end":13749.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13750.55721875,"end":13751.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13752.24471875,"end":13781.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13781.03346875,"end":13782.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13782.957218750002,"end":13805.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13801.097843750002,"end":13801.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13805.97471875,"end":13844.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13844.06159375,"end":13844.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13844.179718750001,"end":13862.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13862.489093750002,"end":13862.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13862.894093750001,"end":13876.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13877.609093750001,"end":13887.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":13877.64284375,"end":13877.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13877.71034375,"end":13877.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13877.74409375,"end":13877.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13877.929718750001,"end":13877.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13877.946593750003,"end":13878.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13879.296593750001,"end":13879.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13887.362843750001,"end":13887.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13887.39659375,"end":13888.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13892.72909375,"end":13894.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13897.184093750002,"end":13899.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13900.89659375,"end":13902.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13902.347843750002,"end":13909.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13906.684718750003,"end":13907.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13907.49471875,"end":13910.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13910.59971875,"end":13910.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13910.70096875,"end":13910.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13910.852843750003,"end":13958.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13910.86971875,"end":13912.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13959.419093750003,"end":13960.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13961.22471875,"end":13962.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13962.38909375,"end":13968.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13968.44721875,"end":13977.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13977.27284375,"end":14009.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14010.145343750002,"end":14012.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14011.47846875,"end":14011.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14012.659718750001,"end":14013.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14013.520343750002,"end":14023.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14023.83096875,"end":14029.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14029.804718750001,"end":14030.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14030.88471875,"end":14061.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14042.039093750001,"end":14042.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14042.34284375,"end":14042.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14042.359718750002,"end":14042.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14061.968468750001,"end":14082.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14082.910343750002,"end":14083.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14083.41659375,"end":14083.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14083.66971875,"end":14083.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14084.142218750003,"end":14085.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14085.492218750001,"end":14085.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14087.331593750001,"end":14088.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14089.289093750001,"end":14104.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14111.125343750002,"end":14118.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14118.668468750002,"end":14119.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14119.680968750003,"end":14120.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14123.427218750003,"end":14133.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14125.266593750002,"end":14125.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14125.469093750002,"end":14125.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14125.485968750003,"end":14125.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14134.007843750001,"end":14138.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14138.83409375,"end":14146.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14146.90034375,"end":14157.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14157.649718750003,"end":14157.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14158.645343750002,"end":14159.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14159.03346875,"end":14169.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14160.36659375,"end":14160.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14161.36221875,"end":14161.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14162.374718750001,"end":14162.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14169.124718750001,"end":14169.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14169.192218750002,"end":14169.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14169.411593750003,"end":14170.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14170.96409375,"end":14181.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14182.793468750002,"end":14188.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14183.367218750001,"end":14184.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14188.530968750001,"end":14190.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14188.66596875,"end":14188.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14188.969718750002,"end":14189.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14190.977843750003,"end":14193.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14193.509093750003,"end":14195.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14195.26409375,"end":14195.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14195.53409375,"end":14200.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14201.001593750003,"end":14204.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14204.49471875,"end":14206.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14206.85721875,"end":14209.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14209.75971875,"end":14210.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14211.278468750003,"end":14213.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14214.34971875,"end":14215.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14215.68284375,"end":14218.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14218.973468750002,"end":14218.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14220.52596875,"end":14221.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14222.01096875,"end":14223.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14223.782843750003,"end":14227.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14224.238468750002,"end":14225.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14227.731593750003,"end":14230.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14231.460968750001,"end":14244.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14244.184718750003,"end":14244.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14244.94409375,"end":14247.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14247.25596875,"end":14250.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14250.985343750002,"end":14253.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14253.53346875,"end":14254.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14255.085968750001,"end":14255.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14256.48659375,"end":14258.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14258.730968750002,"end":14264.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14264.24909375,"end":14264.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14264.434718750003,"end":14273.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14274.05346875,"end":14277.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14277.90096875,"end":14286.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14286.81096875,"end":14290.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14291.940968750001,"end":14294.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14294.97846875,"end":14298.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14298.960968750001,"end":14301.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14302.808468750001,"end":14309.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14308.17471875,"end":14308.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14309.96346875,"end":14312.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14312.17409375,"end":14324.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14324.813468750002,"end":14324.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14324.89784375,"end":14324.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14324.914718750002,"end":14324.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14324.94846875,"end":14324.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14324.965343750002,"end":14324.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14324.99909375,"end":14325.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14325.032843750003,"end":14338.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14338.144718750002,"end":14343.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14343.76409375,"end":14357.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14358.63096875,"end":14360.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14360.470343750003,"end":14368.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14369.329718750003,"end":14369.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14369.903468750003,"end":14384.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14385.344093750002,"end":14390.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14390.929718750001,"end":14391.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14392.07721875,"end":14393.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14393.76471875,"end":14424.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14424.88221875,"end":14428.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14428.864718750003,"end":14445.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14445.773468750001,"end":14445.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14445.80721875,"end":14446.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14446.245968750001,"end":14446.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14446.48221875,"end":14450.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14451.831593750001,"end":14452.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14453.046593750001,"end":14457.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14457.552218750003,"end":14463.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14463.812843750002,"end":14465.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14465.48346875,"end":14467.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14467.930343750002,"end":14469.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14469.90471875,"end":14472.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14472.689093750003,"end":14476.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14476.18221875,"end":14477.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14477.34659375,"end":14478.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14478.49409375,"end":14481.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14482.29096875,"end":14482.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14483.45534375,"end":14483.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14483.472218750001,"end":14487.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14488.399718750003,"end":14491.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14491.673468750003,"end":14499.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14499.739718750003,"end":14499.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14499.773468750001,"end":14500.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14500.17846875,"end":14502.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14500.195343750001,"end":14500.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14504.515343750001,"end":14504.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14504.532218750002,"end":14505.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14507.60346875,"end":14510.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14518.335968750001,"end":14520.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14520.85034375,"end":14521.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14529.102218750002,"end":14529.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14529.743468750003,"end":14540.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14530.485968750003,"end":14530.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14540.89784375,"end":14564.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14546.027843750002,"end":14547.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14547.25971875,"end":14547.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14550.972218750001,"end":14551.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14564.77596875,"end":14567.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14568.488468750002,"end":14568.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14568.589718750001,"end":14568.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14568.657218750002,"end":14568.876593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":14568.876593750003,"end":14579.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14568.89346875,"end":14568.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14568.910343750002,"end":14569.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14569.26471875,"end":14569.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14571.441593750002,"end":14571.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14571.492218750001,"end":14572.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":14580.267218750003,"end":14583.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14582.579093750002,"end":14582.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14583.270968750003,"end":14587.017218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":14587.017218750003,"end":14588.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14587.540343750003,"end":14597.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14589.210968750001,"end":14589.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":14589.261593750001,"end":14589.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14597.547218750002,"end":14598.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14598.67784375,"end":14598.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14598.72846875,"end":14599.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14599.15034375,"end":14600.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14601.37784375,"end":14601.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14602.27221875,"end":14607.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14607.874718750001,"end":14608.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14608.65096875,"end":14622.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14622.960968750001,"end":14652.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14623.602218750002,"end":14623.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14626.63971875,"end":14626.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14635.465343750002,"end":14635.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14637.33846875,"end":14640.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14652.981593750003,"end":14653.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14653.09971875,"end":14660.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14657.942843750003,"end":14658.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14659.12409375,"end":14666.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14667.07221875,"end":14670.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14670.160343750002,"end":14670.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14670.51471875,"end":14681.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14681.80409375,"end":14713.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14714.524718750003,"end":14715.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14715.942218750002,"end":14716.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14716.06034375,"end":14752.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":14716.110968750003,"end":14716.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14751.160343750002,"end":14751.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14753.15159375,"end":14758.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14758.73721875,"end":14760.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14761.504718750002,"end":14789.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14790.040343750003,"end":14801.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14801.582843750002,"end":14807.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14807.35409375,"end":14812.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14813.074718750002,"end":14814.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14815.352843750003,"end":14827.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14827.75596875,"end":14831.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14832.09284375,"end":14845.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14845.778468750003,"end":14849.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14850.53721875,"end":14862.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14863.04159375,"end":14866.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14867.125343750002,"end":14868.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14869.065968750001,"end":14870.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14872.086593750002,"end":14872.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14872.407218750002,"end":14872.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14872.660343750002,"end":14873.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14873.031593750002,"end":14885.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14881.82346875,"end":14881.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14881.840343750002,"end":14882.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14882.65034375,"end":14882.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14882.66721875,"end":14882.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14883.08909375,"end":14883.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14883.409718750001,"end":14883.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14883.696593750003,"end":14883.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14885.97471875,"end":14887.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14887.004093750002,"end":14887.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14887.34159375,"end":14892.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14889.14721875,"end":14890.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14892.539093750001,"end":14892.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14892.910343750002,"end":14894.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14894.749718750001,"end":14895.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14894.78346875,"end":14895.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14895.036593750003,"end":14911.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14904.722843750002,"end":14904.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14904.739718750003,"end":14905.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14906.64659375,"end":14906.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14911.03409375,"end":14912.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14911.050968750002,"end":14912.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14912.063468750002,"end":14912.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14912.92409375,"end":14918.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14918.864093750002,"end":14919.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14919.184718750003,"end":14925.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14925.074093750001,"end":14925.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14925.175343750001,"end":14948.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14948.68221875,"end":14950.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14950.454093750002,"end":14958.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":14958.840968750003,"end":14959.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14959.347218750001,"end":14961.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14961.355343750001,"end":14982.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":14983.090343750002,"end":14987.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14986.38096875,"end":14987.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":14987.730968750002,"end":15021.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14989.45221875,"end":14989.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14995.223468750002,"end":14997.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15021.059093750002,"end":15023.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15022.155968750001,"end":15022.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15022.915343750003,"end":15024.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15023.67471875,"end":15023.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15024.04596875,"end":15024.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15024.09659375,"end":15024.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15024.434093750002,"end":15037.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15033.52971875,"end":15053.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15038.102843750003,"end":15038.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15038.33909375,"end":15039.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15040.617218750001,"end":15041.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15051.83909375,"end":15055.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15054.015968750002,"end":15054.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15055.028468750003,"end":15073.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15074.82284375,"end":15075.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15075.970343750003,"end":15076.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15081.066593750002,"end":15082.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15082.88909375,"end":15083.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15085.11659375,"end":15086.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15086.601593750001,"end":15088.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15086.719718750002,"end":15087.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15087.023468750001,"end":15087.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15105.636593750001,"end":15105.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15106.41284375,"end":15108.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15109.41659375,"end":15110.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15112.403468750003,"end":15113.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15113.972843750002,"end":15114.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15114.05721875,"end":15114.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15114.10784375,"end":15114.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15115.440968750001,"end":15115.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15118.934093750002,"end":15119.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15120.317843750003,"end":15128.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15129.497843750003,"end":15134.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15135.555968750003,"end":15141.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15141.42846875,"end":15142.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15142.457843750002,"end":15142.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15143.21721875,"end":15143.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15145.140968750002,"end":15149.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15149.781593750002,"end":15150.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15150.524093750002,"end":15151.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15151.97534375,"end":15152.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15153.44346875,"end":15155.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15156.683468750001,"end":15160.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15162.15096875,"end":15162.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15162.89346875,"end":15163.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15167.922218750002,"end":15168.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15170.942843750003,"end":15171.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15172.714718750001,"end":15174.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15174.351593750001,"end":15175.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15175.81971875,"end":15177.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15177.692843750003,"end":15178.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15179.262218750002,"end":15181.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":15185.97846875,"end":15186.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15186.029093750003,"end":15188.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":15188.965343750002,"end":15189.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":15194.38221875,"end":15194.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15194.41596875,"end":15194.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15198.938468750002,"end":15202.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15206.835968750001,"end":15214.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15215.695343750001,"end":15220.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15220.555343750002,"end":15226.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15227.44034375,"end":15240.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15240.872843750003,"end":15274.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15274.673468750003,"end":15290.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15291.41346875,"end":15297.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15297.606593750003,"end":15299.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":15299.817218750002,"end":15307.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15303.68159375,"end":15307.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":15307.579718750003,"end":15307.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15307.680968750003,"end":15356.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":15307.950968750003,"end":15307.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15313.469093750002,"end":15315.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15319.206593750001,"end":15324.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15330.884093750003,"end":15333.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15334.90034375,"end":15335.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":15335.96346875,"end":15336.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":15341.430968750003,"end":15342.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15350.57721875,"end":15350.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15355.58909375,"end":15366.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15364.060343750003,"end":15366.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15367.60409375,"end":15407.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15367.637843750003,"end":15368.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15368.02596875,"end":15368.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15368.54909375,"end":15373.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15405.404093750003,"end":15418.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15414.22971875,"end":15419.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15419.309093750002,"end":15419.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15419.96721875,"end":15420.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15420.000968750002,"end":15420.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15420.051593750002,"end":15423.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15420.08534375,"end":15429.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15428.67471875,"end":15429.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15429.94034375,"end":15469.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15430.007843750001,"end":15432.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15444.351593750001,"end":15444.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":15444.419093750003,"end":15444.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15469.32659375,"end":15477.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15477.173468750003,"end":15494.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15492.10784375,"end":15492.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15492.884093750003,"end":15494.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15495.06096875,"end":15537.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":15518.36534375,"end":15520.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15520.54221875,"end":15520.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15538.227218750002,"end":15545.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15538.66596875,"end":15556.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15555.33846875,"end":15571.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15557.81909375,"end":15558.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15572.095343750003,"end":15577.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15574.187843750002,"end":15574.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15577.37721875,"end":15578.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15577.44471875,"end":15587.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15583.23284375,"end":15585.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15587.02971875,"end":15589.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15587.13096875,"end":15588.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15588.56534375,"end":15595.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15593.35784375,"end":15599.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15599.770343750002,"end":15619.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15601.32284375,"end":15601.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15602.892218750003,"end":15605.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15605.980343750001,"end":15607.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15608.798468750003,"end":15610.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15610.536593750003,"end":15610.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15619.63221875,"end":15636.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15636.97971875,"end":15637.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15637.907843750003,"end":15639.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15637.92471875,"end":15638.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15639.797843750002,"end":15639.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15640.675343750001,"end":15640.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15640.70909375,"end":15641.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15642.177218750003,"end":15647.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15647.273468750001,"end":15664.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15652.015343750001,"end":15653.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15664.907843750003,"end":15665.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15666.02159375,"end":15673.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15673.446593750003,"end":15674.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15675.218468750001,"end":15677.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15679.53846875,"end":15691.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15679.84221875,"end":15680.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15684.195968750002,"end":15684.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15691.739093750002,"end":15701.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15700.952843750001,"end":15701.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15701.50971875,"end":15701.610968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15701.67846875,"end":15708.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15705.30659375,"end":15710.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15710.655968750001,"end":15716.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15710.723468750002,"end":15725.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15724.25721875,"end":15725.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15725.961593750002,"end":15727.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15726.214718750001,"end":15727.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15728.391593750002,"end":15736.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15732.20534375,"end":15732.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15733.504718750002,"end":15744.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15737.892218750003,"end":15739.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15741.351593750001,"end":15741.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15742.43159375,"end":15742.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15742.465343750002,"end":15769.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15768.621593750002,"end":15772.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":15769.97159375,"end":15770.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15777.379718750002,"end":15779.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15794.11971875,"end":15800.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15795.43596875,"end":15795.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15798.18659375,"end":15799.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15800.363468750002,"end":15802.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15801.39284375,"end":15802.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15803.19846875,"end":15803.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15805.898468750001,"end":15812.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15814.487843750001,"end":15816.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15816.394718750002,"end":15820.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15821.27159375,"end":15824.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15823.49909375,"end":15825.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15826.097843750002,"end":15832.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15832.93221875,"end":15834.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":15833.57346875,"end":15833.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15834.56909375,"end":15839.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15840.222218750001,"end":15840.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15841.15034375,"end":15843.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15843.833468750003,"end":15845.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15845.504093750002,"end":15859.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15859.29096875,"end":15871.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15871.305968750003,"end":15879.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15880.013468750003,"end":15886.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15886.51034375,"end":15892.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15892.500968750002,"end":15901.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15901.090343750002,"end":15901.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15901.984718750002,"end":15910.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15906.473468750002,"end":15906.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15910.28721875,"end":15937.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15937.590968750003,"end":15937.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15938.097218750001,"end":15938.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15938.13096875,"end":15938.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15938.97471875,"end":15939.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15939.953468750002,"end":15955.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15954.06096875,"end":15971.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15972.30284375,"end":15975.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15975.37409375,"end":15975.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15975.62721875,"end":15975.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15975.711593750002,"end":15987.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15980.11596875,"end":15980.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15985.904093750003,"end":15990.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15991.793468750002,"end":15995.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15991.810343750003,"end":15993.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15995.87721875,"end":15996.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":15997.14284375,"end":16006.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16007.36909375,"end":16021.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16015.82346875,"end":16017.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16020.71721875,"end":16031.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16031.43284375,"end":16031.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16031.770343750002,"end":16031.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16031.78721875,"end":16031.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16031.972843750002,"end":16034.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16034.95971875,"end":16044.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16044.71346875,"end":16046.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16044.831593750001,"end":16044.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16044.88221875,"end":16045.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16045.844093750002,"end":16051.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16047.075968750003,"end":16047.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16052.15534375,"end":16059.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16061.149718750003,"end":16061.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":16061.723468750002,"end":16061.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16061.824718750002,"end":16079.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16078.598468750002,"end":16084.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16081.26471875,"end":16081.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16084.065968750001,"end":16101.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16085.48346875,"end":16085.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16100.99159375,"end":16132.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16106.121593750002,"end":16106.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16106.273468750001,"end":16106.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16123.114718750003,"end":16123.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16129.392218750003,"end":16130.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16132.227218750002,"end":16139.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16139.939093750003,"end":16152.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16148.562218750001,"end":16148.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16150.637843750003,"end":16151.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16151.565968750001,"end":16174.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16174.060343750003,"end":16175.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16175.59596875,"end":16179.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16180.388468750003,"end":16205.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16206.274718750003,"end":16224.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16225.782218750002,"end":16251.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16251.75284375,"end":16254.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":16255.02659375,"end":16259.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16261.202843750001,"end":16262.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16263.71721875,"end":16266.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16274.53409375,"end":16277.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16277.80784375,"end":16280.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16280.946593750003,"end":16281.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16282.75221875,"end":16287.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16289.012843750003,"end":16290.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16290.227843750003,"end":16293.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16290.24471875,"end":16291.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16294.41284375,"end":16302.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16303.05284375,"end":16306.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16307.372843750003,"end":16322.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16323.15096875,"end":16330.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16330.457843750002,"end":16336.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16337.055968750003,"end":16341.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16342.13534375,"end":16348.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16346.860343750002,"end":16347.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16347.855968750002,"end":16378.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16378.83846875,"end":16399.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16399.324718750002,"end":16419.085343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16419.304718749998,"end":16420.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16421.12721875,"end":16426.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16426.560968750004,"end":16453.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16453.40909375,"end":16494.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16464.546593749998,"end":16464.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16494.73596875,"end":16507.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16507.662218750003,"end":16522.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16522.68096875,"end":16523.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16523.13659375,"end":16528.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16523.153468750003,"end":16523.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16527.304718749998,"end":16558.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16558.11846875,"end":16561.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16562.11784375,"end":16565.594093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16565.880968750003,"end":16572.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16572.344093749998,"end":16576.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16576.444718749997,"end":16584.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16584.73034375,"end":16601.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16600.035968750002,"end":16600.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16601.16659375,"end":16618.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16603.545968749997,"end":16606.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16618.817843750003,"end":16627.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":16625.55096875,"end":16626.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16626.968468749998,"end":16627.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16627.50846875,"end":16627.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16627.54221875,"end":16630.242218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16630.444718749997,"end":16632.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16632.08159375,"end":16634.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16633.44846875,"end":16633.920968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16634.528468750003,"end":16647.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16638.37596875,"end":16639.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16648.163468749997,"end":16655.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16654.32284375,"end":16660.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16660.22909375,"end":16689.287843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16689.709718750004,"end":16691.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16691.734718749998,"end":16693.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16694.569718749997,"end":16695.514718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16695.75096875,"end":16698.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16698.70409375,"end":16706.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16706.19659375,"end":16708.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16709.014718749997,"end":16711.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16711.765343749998,"end":16712.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16713.26721875,"end":16717.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16717.62096875,"end":16778.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16778.607218750003,"end":16790.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16790.36909375,"end":16794.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16793.794718750003,"end":16806.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16806.349718750003,"end":16812.795968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16812.94784375,"end":16815.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16815.968468749998,"end":16818.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16818.51659375,"end":16822.077218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16822.34721875,"end":16824.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16824.76034375,"end":16826.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16826.66721875,"end":16827.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16828.03409375,"end":16829.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16829.974718750003,"end":16833.045968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16832.77596875,"end":16835.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16836.302843750003,"end":16836.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16837.062218749998,"end":16842.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16842.512843750003,"end":16852.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16852.114718750003,"end":16856.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16857.43034375,"end":16857.514718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16857.632843749998,"end":16861.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16862.39159375,"end":16866.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16866.255968750003,"end":16871.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16866.272843749997,"end":16866.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16869.192218750002,"end":16873.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16873.832843750002,"end":16875.233468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16875.79034375,"end":16882.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16880.88659375,"end":16887.045968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16887.164093749998,"end":16897.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16897.812218749998,"end":16911.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16911.22784375,"end":16912.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16913.100968749997,"end":16913.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16913.742218749998,"end":16914.467843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16917.99471875,"end":16919.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16919.58096875,"end":16920.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16920.779093750003,"end":16920.914093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16920.914093749998,"end":16921.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16921.97721875,"end":16923.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16924.390343749998,"end":16929.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16929.655343749997,"end":16942.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16947.62721875,"end":16949.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":16949.97284375,"end":16950.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":16950.88409375,"end":16952.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16951.390343749998,"end":16952.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":16952.875343749998,"end":16954.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":16953.02721875,"end":16953.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":16955.22096875,"end":16956.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":16957.178468750004,"end":16959.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16960.90784375,"end":16971.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":16966.324718750002,"end":16966.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16973.04096875,"end":16975.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16973.14221875,"end":16973.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16975.926593750002,"end":16976.061593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16976.247218750003,"end":16978.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16977.58034375,"end":16978.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16978.980968750002,"end":16989.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16983.250343749998,"end":16983.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16983.840968750003,"end":16983.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16989.038468749997,"end":17069.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17069.75159375,"end":17072.670968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17071.405343749997,"end":17082.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17075.708468750003,"end":17076.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17079.859718749998,"end":17080.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17081.80034375,"end":17121.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17122.030343749997,"end":17131.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17131.851593749998,"end":17136.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17136.036593750003,"end":17145.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17145.672218749998,"end":17172.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":17172.50346875,"end":17172.857843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17172.79034375,"end":17182.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17182.662218750003,"end":17183.303468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17183.084093750003,"end":17206.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":17203.958468750003,"end":17204.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17206.793468750002,"end":17216.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17216.631593750004,"end":17247.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17243.530343749997,"end":17243.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17243.56409375,"end":17243.952218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17247.68159375,"end":17248.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17248.390343749998,"end":17248.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17248.76159375,"end":17248.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17248.778468750003,"end":17312.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":17255.207843750002,"end":17255.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17312.85284375,"end":17314.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17314.523468749998,"end":17321.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17321.037218750003,"end":17358.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17321.50971875,"end":17321.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17333.64284375,"end":17333.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17358.44909375,"end":17360.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17358.75284375,"end":17359.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17360.44034375,"end":17360.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17360.507843749998,"end":17360.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17360.94659375,"end":17360.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17362.76909375,"end":17367.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17378.05784375,"end":17382.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17382.006593750004,"end":17383.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17383.08659375,"end":17383.491593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17383.66034375,"end":17383.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17383.812218749998,"end":17384.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17389.41471875,"end":17407.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17408.43284375,"end":17412.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17412.51659375,"end":17418.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17419.047218749998,"end":17420.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17420.63346875,"end":17423.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17423.654093750003,"end":17427.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17428.26096875,"end":17434.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17434.842218750004,"end":17452.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17452.375343749998,"end":17452.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17452.763468750003,"end":17453.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17453.75909375,"end":17469.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17470.482218750003,"end":17484.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17473.570343749998,"end":17473.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17473.975343750004,"end":17473.992218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17475.47721875,"end":17475.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":17480.927843750003,"end":17481.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":17481.029093750003,"end":17481.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17481.434093750002,"end":17481.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17484.03284375,"end":17487.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17488.403468750003,"end":17496.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17496.89159375,"end":17498.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17498.967218750004,"end":17499.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17499.473468750002,"end":17499.490343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17499.490343750003,"end":17499.507218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17499.507218749997,"end":17499.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17499.52409375,"end":17499.608468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17499.608468749997,"end":17499.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17499.87846875,"end":17508.366593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17504.333468750003,"end":17505.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17507.01659375,"end":17530.185968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17509.76721875,"end":17509.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17509.96971875,"end":17510.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17531.130968750003,"end":17532.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17532.531593749998,"end":17547.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17547.93846875,"end":17549.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17549.44034375,"end":17569.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17569.622843750003,"end":17584.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17585.249093749997,"end":17618.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":17589.231593750003,"end":17589.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":17598.15846875,"end":17598.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17606.764718749997,"end":17607.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17618.49284375,"end":17619.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17619.23534375,"end":17619.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17619.45471875,"end":17619.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17619.741593749997,"end":17621.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17622.492218749998,"end":17623.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17624.61846875,"end":17634.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17633.79846875,"end":17635.570343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17634.86159375,"end":17658.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17646.724718750003,"end":17647.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17658.840968750003,"end":17665.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17665.607843750004,"end":17671.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17671.22721875,"end":17674.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17674.53471875,"end":17704.116593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17707.677218750003,"end":17709.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17710.950968750003,"end":17713.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17720.70471875,"end":17725.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17726.459093750003,"end":17726.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17726.49284375,"end":17726.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17726.83034375,"end":17727.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17727.404093750003,"end":17728.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17728.028468750003,"end":17728.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17728.39971875,"end":17728.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17728.51784375,"end":17731.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17731.200968750003,"end":17732.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17731.79159375,"end":17732.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17736.61784375,"end":17737.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17739.537218750003,"end":17746.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17746.827218749997,"end":17747.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17747.468468749998,"end":17755.686593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17755.82159375,"end":17776.341593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17776.69596875,"end":17805.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17805.265343749998,"end":17837.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17837.66534375,"end":17839.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17840.061593749997,"end":17845.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17845.529093750003,"end":17847.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17848.718468749998,"end":17857.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17857.49346875,"end":17860.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17859.467843749997,"end":17865.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17866.15034375,"end":17871.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17871.02721875,"end":17879.616593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17879.616593749997,"end":17891.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17887.497218750003,"end":17889.319718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17891.02409375,"end":17892.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17892.01971875,"end":17892.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17892.036593750003,"end":17892.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17892.44159375,"end":17892.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17892.559718750003,"end":17893.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17893.03221875,"end":17896.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17894.63534375,"end":17896.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17896.980968750002,"end":17897.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17897.031593749998,"end":17899.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17898.73596875,"end":17901.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17901.317843750003,"end":17902.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17902.00971875,"end":17903.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17902.73534375,"end":17910.734093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17911.982843750004,"end":17911.999718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17911.999718749998,"end":17917.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17914.48034375,"end":17916.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17917.028468750003,"end":17917.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17917.281593749998,"end":17918.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17918.02409375,"end":17927.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17927.52471875,"end":17930.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17930.224718750003,"end":17930.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17930.241593749997,"end":17930.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17930.342843749997,"end":17933.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17933.88659375,"end":17936.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17934.460343749997,"end":17938.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17938.982843750004,"end":17944.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17945.17596875,"end":17948.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17949.428468750004,"end":17955.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17955.840968750003,"end":17965.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17966.084093750003,"end":17968.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17966.53971875,"end":17968.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17968.817843750003,"end":17973.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17973.036593750003,"end":17995.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17973.44159375,"end":17974.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17986.890968749998,"end":17987.194718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17988.30846875,"end":17989.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17990.333468750003,"end":17993.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17995.497218750003,"end":17996.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17997.083468750003,"end":18009.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18001.538468749997,"end":18001.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18001.67346875,"end":18001.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18001.87596875,"end":18001.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18010.279718750004,"end":18014.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18015.156593749998,"end":18036.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18019.51034375,"end":18021.889718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18033.22971875,"end":18033.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18037.279718750004,"end":18058.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":18042.949718750002,"end":18046.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":18047.77596875,"end":18047.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":18047.86034375,"end":18048.585968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18048.585968749998,"end":18048.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":18048.61971875,"end":18048.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18049.311593749997,"end":18050.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18050.762843750003,"end":18050.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18055.35284375,"end":18056.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18058.592843749997,"end":18059.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18059.976593749998,"end":18066.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18065.359718749998,"end":18066.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18066.77721875,"end":18067.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18067.013468750003,"end":18069.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18069.662843750004,"end":18074.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18075.38346875,"end":18080.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18080.547218749998,"end":18083.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18083.888468750003,"end":18102.045968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18101.590343750002,"end":18108.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18105.67409375,"end":18110.685968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18111.749093749997,"end":18114.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18115.326593750004,"end":18120.287843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18120.827843749998,"end":18121.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18121.50284375,"end":18124.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18128.607218750003,"end":18130.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18130.96971875,"end":18131.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18131.10471875,"end":18135.374093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18133.669718750003,"end":18134.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18135.880343750003,"end":18136.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":18136.116593749997,"end":18136.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18136.15034375,"end":18136.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18141.465968750003,"end":18144.132218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18144.655343749997,"end":18152.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18153.43034375,"end":18167.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18168.584093750003,"end":18173.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18174.13596875,"end":18181.139093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18181.69596875,"end":18183.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18184.429718749998,"end":18186.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18186.23534375,"end":18195.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18195.465968750003,"end":18199.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18200.39346875,"end":18211.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18209.05034375,"end":18209.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18211.817843750003,"end":18214.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18214.872218750003,"end":18231.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18232.67534375,"end":18243.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18243.914093749998,"end":18251.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18251.187218749998,"end":18263.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18263.26971875,"end":18274.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18275.318468750003,"end":18279.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18279.72284375,"end":18280.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18280.22909375,"end":18288.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18287.687843749998,"end":18288.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18288.04221875,"end":18288.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18288.835343749997,"end":18301.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18298.116593749997,"end":18298.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18301.32284375,"end":18318.045968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18318.40034375,"end":18321.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18321.15096875,"end":18321.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18321.741593749997,"end":18339.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":18338.97096875,"end":18339.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18339.61221875,"end":18341.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18341.06346875,"end":18341.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":18341.08034375,"end":18341.147843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18341.654093750003,"end":18343.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18343.797218749998,"end":18346.632218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18346.632218749997,"end":18347.155343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18347.18909375,"end":18351.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18351.593468749998,"end":18360.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18361.83659375,"end":18384.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18385.03971875,"end":18386.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18386.828468749998,"end":18387.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18387.79034375,"end":18390.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18390.43971875,"end":18391.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18391.08096875,"end":18394.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18393.59534375,"end":18396.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18394.65846875,"end":18423.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18397.42596875,"end":18397.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":18414.452843749998,"end":18414.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18422.670968749997,"end":18425.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18424.459718750004,"end":18426.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18425.55659375,"end":18428.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18426.11346875,"end":18426.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18428.40846875,"end":18428.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18428.442218750002,"end":18428.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18428.52659375,"end":18428.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18428.678468750004,"end":18428.779718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18428.74596875,"end":18439.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18428.779718750004,"end":18428.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":18439.57971875,"end":18439.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18440.372843750003,"end":18459.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":18442.66784375,"end":18443.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":18443.747843750003,"end":18443.764718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18459.20534375,"end":18478.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18477.615968750004,"end":18534.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18534.265343749998,"end":18534.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18534.51846875,"end":18538.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18539.209718750004,"end":18545.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18544.66034375,"end":18549.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18549.46971875,"end":18557.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18558.14346875,"end":18559.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18559.08846875,"end":18560.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18559.51034375,"end":18589.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18561.83909375,"end":18562.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18589.733468749997,"end":18599.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18600.803468750004,"end":18609.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18609.966593750003,"end":18624.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18611.130968750003,"end":18611.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18624.968468749998,"end":18672.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18625.44096875,"end":18625.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":18673.264718749997,"end":18679.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18682.59659375,"end":18684.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18684.92534375,"end":18687.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18687.52409375,"end":18690.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":18701.04096875,"end":18701.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":18701.05784375,"end":18702.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18702.72846875,"end":18703.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":18758.39909375,"end":18759.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":19174.975343750004,"end":19175.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19175.312843749998,"end":19178.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19179.97034375,"end":19179.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19180.020968750003,"end":19180.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19180.30784375,"end":19180.358468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19180.375343749998,"end":19180.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19180.577843749998,"end":19181.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":19748.97846875,"end":19749.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":19749.974093750003,"end":19750.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":19958.295968750004,"end":19958.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20099.387843750003,"end":20099.742218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20262.670343750004,"end":20263.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20263.109093749998,"end":20263.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20263.952843749998,"end":20264.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":20264.22284375,"end":20264.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20266.551593750002,"end":20266.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20266.63596875,"end":20267.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":20267.47971875,"end":20267.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20267.732843750004,"end":20273.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20273.115968750004,"end":20276.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":20276.96346875,"end":20277.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20277.48659375,"end":20277.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":20278.482218750003,"end":20278.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":20278.920968750004,"end":20279.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":20282.24534375,"end":20283.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":20323.97721875,"end":20324.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20324.027843750002,"end":20329.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20329.731593750003,"end":20331.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20331.115343750003,"end":20331.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":20337.004718750002,"end":20337.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20551.435343750003,"end":20553.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20556.22784375,"end":20561.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20561.864093750002,"end":20564.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20565.12096875,"end":20567.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20568.006593750004,"end":20571.499718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20571.719093749998,"end":20581.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20582.08034375,"end":20582.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20582.28284375,"end":20583.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20583.919718750003,"end":20586.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20586.872843750003,"end":20587.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20587.68284375,"end":20587.952843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20588.273468749998,"end":20589.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20589.842843750004,"end":20591.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20592.62721875,"end":20597.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20597.622218750003,"end":20599.444718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20600.254718750002,"end":20601.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20601.756593750004,"end":20602.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20602.98846875,"end":20603.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20603.646593750003,"end":20604.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20604.895343750002,"end":20606.515343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20608.945343749998,"end":20608.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":20608.96221875,"end":20609.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20610.54846875,"end":20612.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20622.192218750002,"end":20624.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20625.09471875,"end":20626.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20627.609093749998,"end":20628.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20629.87034375,"end":20631.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20631.625343749998,"end":20634.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20634.19034375,"end":20636.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20637.818468750003,"end":20639.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20639.624093750004,"end":20640.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20640.855968750002,"end":20642.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20642.62784375,"end":20643.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20643.825968750003,"end":20645.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20652.41534375,"end":20653.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20653.68096875,"end":20658.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20658.22034375,"end":20659.755968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20667.434093750002,"end":20710.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20711.39346875,"end":20731.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20731.609718749998,"end":20744.249093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20744.38409375,"end":20745.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20745.902843750002,"end":20760.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20759.60534375,"end":20763.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20762.389718750004,"end":20775.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20768.21159375,"end":20769.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":20769.021593750003,"end":20769.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20775.164093749998,"end":20781.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20782.45409375,"end":20782.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20783.12909375,"end":20792.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20791.63409375,"end":20799.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20795.414093749998,"end":20796.460343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20798.012843750003,"end":20813.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20802.70409375,"end":20803.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20803.48034375,"end":20803.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20806.973468750002,"end":20806.990343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20806.990343750003,"end":20807.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20812.997843750003,"end":20814.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20814.02721875,"end":20818.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20814.11159375,"end":20816.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20818.14471875,"end":20819.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20819.764718750004,"end":20839.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20838.546593749998,"end":20841.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20840.419718750003,"end":20841.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20841.53346875,"end":20843.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20841.921593749998,"end":20842.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20843.20409375,"end":20865.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20865.614093750002,"end":20871.756593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20872.077218750004,"end":20884.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20885.678468750004,"end":20886.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20887.33221875,"end":20932.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20893.356593750003,"end":20893.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20895.43221875,"end":20896.765343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20897.288468749997,"end":20897.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":20898.452843749998,"end":20898.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20932.709093750003,"end":20940.319718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20940.319718749997,"end":20954.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":20947.710968749998,"end":20948.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20955.304718749998,"end":20956.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20957.04284375,"end":20960.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20959.607843750004,"end":20960.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20960.51909375,"end":20960.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20961.177218750003,"end":20972.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20970.357218750003,"end":20971.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20972.21346875,"end":20973.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20973.46221875,"end":20974.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20973.91784375,"end":20979.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20979.68909375,"end":20982.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20979.70596875,"end":20980.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20981.39346875,"end":20995.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20995.467218750004,"end":20995.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20995.53471875,"end":20995.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20995.568468750003,"end":20995.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":20995.60221875,"end":20997.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":20997.44159375,"end":21008.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21008.967218750004,"end":21009.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":21009.625343749998,"end":21009.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21009.76034375,"end":21009.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":21009.794093750003,"end":21009.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21009.96284375,"end":21018.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21018.366593749997,"end":21027.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":21028.474718750003,"end":21028.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21028.559093750002,"end":21028.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":21029.50409375,"end":21029.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":21029.67284375,"end":21043.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21032.288468749997,"end":21032.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21035.967218750004,"end":21039.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21042.00846875,"end":21042.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21043.982843750004,"end":21044.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21045.50159375,"end":21047.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21047.91471875,"end":21063.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21064.840343750002,"end":21073.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21068.83971875,"end":21069.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21069.109718749998,"end":21069.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21074.442218750002,"end":21074.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21074.62784375,"end":21074.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21074.84721875,"end":21086.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21085.91721875,"end":21087.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21086.54159375,"end":21103.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21103.43346875,"end":21138.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21118.28346875,"end":21118.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21118.36784375,"end":21118.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21118.38471875,"end":21118.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21118.418468750002,"end":21118.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21118.435343750003,"end":21118.772843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21139.27596875,"end":21148.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21148.77659375,"end":21166.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21166.69784375,"end":21170.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21168.419093750003,"end":21168.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21170.950343750003,"end":21181.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21181.733468750004,"end":21186.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21186.72846875,"end":21191.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21191.976593749998,"end":21203.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21198.996593750002,"end":21199.992218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21200.95409375,"end":21201.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21203.94096875,"end":21222.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21203.974718750003,"end":21204.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":21204.97034375,"end":21205.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21205.965968750003,"end":21206.084093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21207.029093750003,"end":21209.357843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21214.757843749998,"end":21214.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21214.79159375,"end":21215.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21218.554718749998,"end":21220.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21221.86221875,"end":21226.452218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21227.160968750002,"end":21228.544718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21229.23659375,"end":21230.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21231.56534375,"end":21232.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21232.679093749997,"end":21233.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21234.70409375,"end":21235.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21236.172218749998,"end":21243.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21243.833468750003,"end":21255.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21255.966593750003,"end":21257.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21257.569718749997,"end":21267.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21263.29034375,"end":21263.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21263.897843749997,"end":21265.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21266.412218750003,"end":21271.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21272.318468750003,"end":21276.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21277.077218750004,"end":21283.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21277.21221875,"end":21277.515968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21283.725968749997,"end":21284.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21286.39221875,"end":21296.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21290.71221875,"end":21312.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21300.719093749998,"end":21301.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21306.10221875,"end":21307.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21311.72159375,"end":21311.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21312.278468750003,"end":21313.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21312.34596875,"end":21313.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21313.93221875,"end":21314.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21314.03346875,"end":21316.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21316.68284375,"end":21317.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21318.184718750003,"end":21322.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21322.36971875,"end":21326.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21327.75284375,"end":21328.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21328.967843750004,"end":21329.069093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21329.592218750004,"end":21329.609093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21329.609093749998,"end":21338.991593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21337.928468750004,"end":21339.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21339.97034375,"end":21341.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21341.89409375,"end":21350.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21351.56346875,"end":21353.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21353.976593749998,"end":21355.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21355.748468750004,"end":21359.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21359.882843749998,"end":21361.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21362.02596875,"end":21373.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21374.310968750004,"end":21375.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21377.382218749997,"end":21378.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21379.94721875,"end":21379.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21379.96409375,"end":21380.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21381.584093750003,"end":21382.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21382.47846875,"end":21385.499093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21385.66784375,"end":21395.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":21393.700343750003,"end":21393.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21396.552218750003,"end":21399.842843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21400.770968750003,"end":21406.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21407.14971875,"end":21414.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21414.11909375,"end":21414.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21414.22034375,"end":21414.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21414.32159375,"end":21415.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21415.975343750004,"end":21416.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21416.36346875,"end":21416.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21416.380343750003,"end":21417.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21418.01721875,"end":21419.670968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":21419.670968750004,"end":21420.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21421.61159375,"end":21422.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21422.843468749998,"end":21423.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21428.496593750002,"end":21431.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21432.968468749998,"end":21439.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21440.562218749998,"end":21440.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21441.86159375,"end":21444.983468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21446.48534375,"end":21451.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21451.919093750003,"end":21452.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21453.201593750004,"end":21455.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21463.309718750003,"end":21466.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21466.904093750003,"end":21467.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21471.51096875,"end":21472.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21472.96221875,"end":21472.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21476.505968750003,"end":21593.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21594.006593750004,"end":21594.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21594.05721875,"end":21598.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21598.529093750003,"end":21603.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21604.58721875,"end":21641.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21642.420968750004,"end":21644.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21644.68221875,"end":21650.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21651.73596875,"end":21671.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21652.208468750003,"end":21652.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":21659.582843750002,"end":21660.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21660.93284375,"end":21660.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":21661.74284375,"end":21662.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21671.02409375,"end":21689.687843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21690.02534375,"end":21723.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21724.41659375,"end":21730.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21730.08659375,"end":21730.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21730.10346875,"end":21730.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21730.187843749998,"end":21731.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21730.255343750003,"end":21739.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21739.030343750004,"end":21756.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21756.614093750002,"end":21776.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21776.20596875,"end":21800.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21800.97846875,"end":21801.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21801.029093750003,"end":21801.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21801.130343750003,"end":21805.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21805.045343750004,"end":21805.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21805.07909375,"end":21808.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21808.926593750002,"end":21813.179093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21813.600968749997,"end":21815.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21819.051593750002,"end":21830.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21831.23534375,"end":21840.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21841.427843750003,"end":21843.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21843.351593749998,"end":21844.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21845.629718750002,"end":21846.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21847.38471875,"end":21850.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21850.64159375,"end":21852.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21852.480968750002,"end":21852.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21853.69596875,"end":21855.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21855.484718749998,"end":21856.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21856.66596875,"end":21858.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21858.302843750003,"end":21858.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21859.669718750003,"end":21861.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21861.54284375,"end":21862.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21863.078468749998,"end":21865.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21868.47846875,"end":21871.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21872.241593749997,"end":21873.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21873.76034375,"end":21874.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21874.739093750002,"end":21876.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21877.15221875,"end":21877.624718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21877.911593750003,"end":21880.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21880.49346875,"end":21882.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21882.265343749998,"end":21884.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21884.661593750003,"end":21885.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21885.45471875,"end":21887.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21887.294093750003,"end":21889.639718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21890.044718750003,"end":21892.069718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21892.33971875,"end":21894.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21894.53346875,"end":21895.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21896.406593749998,"end":21898.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21898.14471875,"end":21899.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21905.249093750004,"end":21905.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21905.957843750002,"end":21906.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21906.632843749998,"end":21907.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21908.13471875,"end":21908.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21908.37096875,"end":21908.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21908.590343750002,"end":21916.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21912.16784375,"end":21912.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21916.943468750003,"end":21921.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":21919.609718749998,"end":21920.014718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21921.65159375,"end":21924.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21924.48659375,"end":21930.662843750004}],"whisperx":[{"start":1746.411,"end":1768.169,"text":"好 我們今天繼續開會首先介紹一下今天列席的人員交通部陳世凱部長自己給掌聲一下好不好今天早上打個氣了公共運輸局監理司林福山市長公務局陳文瑞局長"},{"start":1771.704,"end":1789.19,"text":"今天特別謝謝我們公平交易委員會李鎂主任委員、數位謝謝你一樣是公平會毛浩吉主秘謝謝你服務業競爭處林慶堂處長資訊及經濟分析室鄭嘉玲主任"},{"start":1797.912,"end":1822.703,"text":"好 謝謝公平會接下來是我們數位部林怡靜政務次長林俊秀代理署長我們數位產業署自動安全署鄭新明副署長勞動部陳明仁常務次長長次謝謝你勞動關係司王厚偉市長"},{"start":1830.63,"end":1848.982,"text":"職業安全衛生署陳志祺副組長以及張藝兵副組長謝謝勞動部以及我們衛福部食品藥物管理署林金富副組長林副組長經濟部商業發展署蘇文林組長"},{"start":1856.175,"end":1884.891,"text":"個人資料保護委員會及籌備處查核規劃組張玉玲組長以及行政院消保處陳興宏副組長本次會議就外送平台的整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範"},{"start":1887.096,"end":1895.361,"text":"另一個議題是公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺因應措施及現行遊覽車評鑑制度的檢討與經濟進行專題報告首先我們就請列席機關報告我們請交通部陳世凱部長報告"},{"start":1913.564,"end":1934.409,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀至貴委員會就外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範以及公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施即現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進進行專案報告表達感謝"},{"start":1940.615,"end":1961.61,"text":"在外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流規範的部分因為外送平台業務包括了平台經濟管理、貨運外送、交通安全、食安、職安等等的面向由各部會依全責分工"},{"start":1962.651,"end":1973.923,"text":"本部將就全責相關外送所設、貨運、營運以及交通安全管理作為以及執行成效進行說明"},{"start":1975.052,"end":1995.394,"text":"並且持續落實外送交通安全管理另外,有關近期外界關切本部10月9日預告相關擬定外送平台機車貨運價的透明化修正草案的政策目的、修正重點以及後續的作業程序也一併進行報告說明"},{"start":1997.296,"end":2004.691,"text":"此外,在大型公路客貨運、駕駛短缺之因應措施即現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進的部分為因應近年"},{"start":2009.591,"end":2023.804,"text":"客貨運業者駕駛人力流失的情形本部除了自108年到現在已經辦理了四階段營業大客車增財補助方案修法延長汽車運輸業駕駛執照的年齡到68歲"},{"start":2031.028,"end":2051.039,"text":"調升補貼公路客運運價協助業者改善薪資福利之外今年也向勞動部申請並且獲得同意可以引進橋外生投入補充駕駛人力目前也正持續研議向勞動部爭取可再引進更適用外籍人力的可行性"},{"start":2052.625,"end":2078.574,"text":"希望能夠儘速的有效協助運輸業者補充、補足所需的駕駛人力在遊覽車評鑑制度部分現行的制度主要是以安全為核心並且引導業者建立完善專業科技化管理機制進而建立品牌化經營模式並透過評鑑等地提供充分資訊給消費者"},{"start":2080.697,"end":2109.165,"text":"租車者選擇參考此外同時也希望藉由平建制度讓業者瞭解經濟方向後續將持續收集各界的建議以經濟平建制度提升遊覽車客運服務的品質與安全以下容我請本部公路局陳局長文瑞向各位委員做報告再次謝謝各位委員的指教請陳文瑞局長"},{"start":2116.289,"end":2131.373,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位理事先生接著由交通部公路局來報告外送平台業務的相關課題外送平台業務包括平台經濟管理、貨運外送的交通安全、食安、食安等面向是由各部會依權責分工管理"},{"start":2131.713,"end":2158.351,"text":"那交通部主管的業務主要為貨運外送的交通安全管理所以我們已經有訂定了機車外送的交通安全指引依外送員的這一個相關的交通違規依情節有相關的輔導機制而且有需要的話會報送駕訓班參加機車的駕駛教育另外公路監理機關每月也都會到業者的公司辦理安全考核同時每季會跟警察機關辦理全國性的同步機車的一個路檢"},{"start":2159.051,"end":2164.533,"text":"那經統計本年的1到7月份外送員的平均事故率為0.26%比這個我們訂定安全指引這個期間之前的110年的同期減少0.45%降幅達到63%"},{"start":2174.697,"end":2189.215,"text":"那接著來說明外送機車運價準則研議修訂的情形那這一次交通部在10月9日預告的相關的修正法規的草案主要的修法目的是要促使外送定價透明化民眾的保障要最大化"},{"start":2189.736,"end":2219.037,"text":"那修正的重點在汽車運輸業管理規則108-1條的這個草案的重點主要就是要訂定這個運價透明化的相關的規定我們會要求業者在我們訂定的運價的上限之下來訂定本身的一個運費另外運費要經過公路主管機關指定的專業機構測試而且這個業者要揭示運費然後要配合這個主管機關管理跟集合那這樣子才能夠達到這個運價的一個透明化"},{"start":2219.577,"end":2246.05,"text":"另外在運輸業客貨運價準則8-1條、8-2條的草案的重點主要是採延車公里而且會因地制宜那直轄市縣市政府的機車外送的同業工會跟相關的工會他共同擬定了機車貨運的運價後是報中央的公路主管機關那由中央公路主管機關在匯商直轄市縣市政府來訂定那這個草案預告期到"},{"start":2246.71,"end":2271.142,"text":"這一個10月25日不過在預告期間包括消費者端、外送平台、外送員、工會都會表達相關的意見所以我們中整在整個預告期間大家的意見我們也定在下週10月30日再邀集消費者的代表、平台業者、外送員、工會還有相關的專家學者共同招會來進行討論那主要目的就是希望就是說在外送運價"},{"start":2272.102,"end":2288.362,"text":"能夠達到充分透明跟消費者權益可充分保障之下我們才會進入法制作業程序那以上是整個這個外送平台的一個報告那接著報告就是另外一份就是大型客貨的駕駛的短缺的因應措施跟現行遊覽車評鑑制度的檢討精進"},{"start":2290.825,"end":2307.317,"text":"那在大型客貨運駕駛短缺的因應措施我們有以下幾項第一個放寬這個大型職業駕駛人的持照年齡的上限到68歲那截至目前已增加公路汽車客運業跟市區汽車客運業475人遊覽車客運業858人也就是說有1333人申請換照在職業"},{"start":2314.102,"end":2330.354,"text":"那另外對於大客車駕駛的徵才補助我們在疫情前108年辦過一次那疫情3年在111年舒緩那我們要找回駕駛所以我們從111年起開始辦理大客車駕駛徵才補助一直到現在都還在辦理"},{"start":2331.154,"end":2355.525,"text":"截至今年的9月底這個專案已經招募了3201人今年我們還在臺灣各地辦了5場的招募活動也媒合業者358人另外這個價值短缺的第三項就是我們來調升補貼的運價改善薪資的福利我們合理反映公路科運跟國道科運的整個運價的成本"},{"start":2358.826,"end":2380.08,"text":"1、2年的5月跟今年的5月都有做相關的一個調生那我們也要求業者調生的這個運價差額是由政府補貼的那業者要用於提升人員的薪資福利讓駕駛能夠安心留任那另外在引進外籍人力的部分我們納入橋外生從事中階技術工作的類別也跟勞動部爭取"},{"start":2381.894,"end":2411.062,"text":"那勞動部已經招會、評估而且也提送國發會討論後同意納入後續是由勞動部依照相關的法規修正事宜來辦理那另外就是說這一個引進外籍人力的話其實業者也有一些就是說希望能夠再增加所以我們公路局在10月18日也邀集貨運商業、公路市區汽車客運業、遊覽車客運業也共同開放討論可能還有其他藍領跟白領的外籍移工可以來從事駕駛的一個工作"},{"start":2411.742,"end":2439.645,"text":"那接著來報告遊覽車評鑑制度的精進那公路局是在109年訂定遊覽車客運業的評鑑作為要點我們的主要的要點就是以營運安全為核心評鑑項目裡面很重要的就是基本的安全紀錄業者的肇事紀錄、勞檢紀錄、道路交通管理的違規紀錄跟汽車運輸業的管理違規紀錄那只要就是說達到一項這一些安全紀錄沒有達標的話它其實就是不列等不推薦給就是說社會大眾"},{"start":2440.606,"end":2457.133,"text":"那另外業者如果說在專業科技化的管理品牌化的經營項目有突出的話其實他最高會達到優等的一個這個評鑑那後續評鑑的一個精進作為我們在今年度因為已經我們已經這個依照這個要點也辦了111跟112年的這個評鑑那今年度我們也特別在邀集產官學員來研議相關的精進包括有提出說這個評鑑的辦理的頻率"},{"start":2468.038,"end":2497.318,"text":"還有平建的項目、內容、標準、權重是不是有一些違規或事故還要再做更大的一個權重來納入這一個整個平建的一個考量那另外也希望對優良業者增訂相關的獎勵機制那這一個部分因為我們113年的這一個精進的措施各界大概有一些意見所以我們也會來納入那來作為後續的這個平建制度的一個精進那以上這個交通部兩份的一個報告敬請委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2502.142,"end":2518.599,"text":"好 謝謝交通部接下來很多朋友都關心的外送平台相關的議題首先是不是針對於兩大外送平台整併的一個相關的進度議題我們邀請我們公平會李美主委來做一個報告 謝謝"},{"start":2527.029,"end":2542.86,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位機關代表、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安我今天很榮幸蜂邀來針對外送平台的整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、全公權益以及食品交流安全規範提出專題報告並被質詢我現在緊就"},{"start":2548.064,"end":2570.92,"text":"外送平台的整併這部分來跟各位做一個說明我們都知道外送平台的出現結合了平台經濟以及零工經濟兩大新興經濟型態也改變我們過去對於消費的習慣以及餐飲業的商業模式同時也創造了新的工作機會公平會向來都非常關注外送平台的"},{"start":2571.32,"end":2588.633,"text":"市場競爭狀況之前我們對於有外送平台有限制競爭的行為違反公平交易法的規定我們也有處罰的案例那目前我們已經針對Uber Eats跟Hupenda的結合申報已經收到這樣的一個申報案件目前是在審議當中"},{"start":2590.174,"end":2609.954,"text":"為了充分了解這兩家外送平台的結合對於市場競爭秩序的影響我們已經分別在臺中、高雄、宜蘭、臺北召開市場會議聽取消費者團體、外送工會、餐飲界、相關的協會以及含請衛生福利部、交通部、經濟部"},{"start":2612.217,"end":2634.037,"text":"勞動部、數位發展部、財政部以及行政院消保處等相關政府機關以及利害關係人也包括其他競爭者、潛在競爭者、連鎖餐飲業者、量販超市、餐飲業工協會、外送員工會團體等等提供意見這兩家外送平台的結合"},{"start":2635.997,"end":2651.591,"text":"將顯著地改變市場結構因此公平會將來審查考量的因素會包括這兩家平台結合以後會不會因此而對於消費者或者是店家有提高價格的能力那結合以後它跟其他的競爭者"},{"start":2652.452,"end":2667.749,"text":"是不是有產生聯合行為的可能性?潛在的競爭者是不是能夠進入外送餐飲平台這個市場?店家、外送員以及消費者等相關交易相對人對於外送平台的抗衡力量"},{"start":2668.43,"end":2682.979,"text":"以及其他會影響限制競爭效果的因素那最後我們會綜合考量根據公平交易法第13條的規定來審酌這個結合案件整體經濟利益是否大於限制競爭的不利益綜合做決定"},{"start":2684.468,"end":2704.879,"text":"外送經濟已經深入我們全民的生活這兩家餐飲外送平台的結合會影響的層面非常廣泛公平交易委員會也一定會審慎依法來審查這個結合案對市場競爭的影響避免發生限制競爭的情形以上報告 敬請指教"},{"start":2705.399,"end":2718.751,"text":"謝主委預計的進度是怎麼樣就是說大概是目前的進度我們是請這個結合事業申請補件當中那目前還在補件的階段好 謝謝謝謝李主委"},{"start":2720.728,"end":2732.638,"text":"那剛剛交通部對於運價的一個指引公平會對於整併的一個情況接下來我們請那個數位部對於我們平台這個業者有些這個資訊的一個保護相關的一些議題請林次長"},{"start":2741.857,"end":2760.345,"text":"主席、委員及與會代表今天應邀參加貴委員會針對外送平台整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範進行專題報告以下是數位發展部的相關說明外送平台的議題廣泛主要可分為"},{"start":2761.746,"end":2773.807,"text":"資訊流、物流、金流以及勞動權益四大部分訴發部作為資訊服務業及第三方支付服務業的主管機關對外送平台的資訊安全及第三方支付安全負有重要責任"},{"start":2775.017,"end":2789.823,"text":"首先,一、在資訊流方面,數位發展部將加強外送平台的資安維護在行動裝置普及的情況下,確保外送平台 的資安防護至關重要速發部推動APP基本資安規範及檢測制度鼓勵業者將APP送交認證的民間實驗室進行資安檢測以防止會員資料及商業機密外洩"},{"start":2799.246,"end":2811.444,"text":"同時,針對偽冒詐騙網站的問題,速發部提供數位信任驗證方案,鼓勵導入零信任網路安全架構及多因子驗證技術,降低消費者被詐騙的風險"},{"start":2814.269,"end":2839.843,"text":"二、金流方面,數碼部將強化外送平台的第三方支付安全目前,除了UberEats及Foodpanda還有Lalamove以及浣熊外送平台等新興的外送平台這些平台的金流需求因為規模及經營的模式不同而有所差異我們說明如下首先是一些新興的平台,由於他們的"},{"start":2841.632,"end":2843.074,"text":"外送平台可參考已經通過登錄的業者進行合作"},{"start":2856.975,"end":2882.02,"text":"然後再來第二個部分是一些比較大型的平台主要就是UberEats以及Foodpanda由於他們本身也是兼營第三方支付的工作的那個服務所以目前的狀況是UberEats以及Foodpanda均已通過第三方支付服務機構的能量登錄並提供足額履約保證或專款專用的信託帳戶以保證消費者權益"},{"start":2884.921,"end":2903.768,"text":"如果未來兩家業者合併那有一個可能是他們的日均代理收付款項如果超過新台幣20億元的話那他們必須在6個月內向金管會申請電子支付的支付機構的許可但是在業者取得營業執照前仍屬第三方支付服務業"},{"start":2905.51,"end":2933.471,"text":"總而言之,數位化是數位發布的重要任務各部會正透過政策協作持續推動外送平台的完善以確保其在數位化時代的持續成長和社會效益提升消費者的體驗和服務品質以上報告,敬請指教謝謝各位委員的聆聽與建議謝謝好,謝謝數位部接下來外送平台針對我們外送員我們勞動部陳明仁次長"},{"start":2935.1,"end":2935.121,"text":"有請"},{"start":2944.147,"end":2966.34,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生勞動部緊就外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範涉及到外送員勞動權益保障的事項進行專題報告請委員不吝指教近年來外送平台新經濟模式迅速崛起也持續在發展當中改變了消費型態也提升了生活的便利性"},{"start":2966.92,"end":2987.736,"text":"但是對於外送員的勞動權益保障就會是一個重要的議題目前世界各國在如何保障外送員的做法都不太一樣但勞動部也基於保障外送員的勞動權益持續規劃相關的作為首先我們透過制定行政指引強化工作安全、運用調整機制和正義輔導"},{"start":2989.077,"end":3015.222,"text":"外送員的平台業者跟工會建立對話機制詳細的部分說明如下第一,我們訂定勞動契約的認定原則為了避免假承攬真僱傭損及外送員權益的事項我們在108年就訂定發布勞動契約認定指導原則及勞動契約從屬性的判斷這部分可以提供大家做一個重要的參據也獲得法院的支持和肯認"},{"start":3016.502,"end":3038.148,"text":"更重要的是在強化職業安全衛生的部分我們修訂發布的職業安全衛生設施規則以及頒布的外送作業安全衛生指引包括反光背心、安全帽等等以及職業安全衛生教育訓練、落實相關的防護措施也要求平台業者訂定危害防止計畫"},{"start":3039.949,"end":3062.562,"text":"同時要納入合理派單避免工作負荷過重造成勞工身心健康危害等等其次我們對外送平台也定期實施稽查那從110年到現在有實施了188家那對於外送員在用路安全的部分我們也配合交通部、公路總局、辦理貨運業從事外送服務的專案聯合稽查"},{"start":3065.084,"end":3086.665,"text":"要求業者負起監管責任、遵守勞動及交通相關法規、減少事故發生其次在外送員非常關切的保險權益部分我們除了在外送作業安全衛生指引就要求平台業者要為外送員投保團體傷害保險之外也要求"},{"start":3087.285,"end":3106.111,"text":"要為了保障第三人的權益和減輕外送人負擔,要求外送平台業者要為外送人投保第三責任保險目前,比較大的UberEats跟Fupanda都已經為了外送人提供了第三責任保險兩家的從業員大概已經占到所有外送"},{"start":3108.172,"end":3134.59,"text":"食品外送平台的九成期可以獲得一定的保障其他比較零星的個別的平台業者我們還在持續督促當中那有關於職業災害保險的部分我們在勞工職業災害保險及保護法通過之後就有很多相對簡易或便民的措施所以不管是勞保局的官網或者是便利商店的多媒體事務機或者公會代保等等各式各樣的簡化的方便投保的"},{"start":3135.03,"end":3159.804,"text":"工具可以提供外送員來使用我們也督促地方政府在相關的勞資爭議的調組機制要特別主動積極的來提供相關的協助措施讓這個個案爭議有效解決那更重要的是在平台業者跟外送員工會這部分我們協助雙方建立對話機制從去年的7月到現在已經召開了8次的對話平台的會議雙方陸續就"},{"start":3162.787,"end":3167.377,"text":"勞動的權益包括停權、申訴管道、職業債保險、報酬等都在進一步對話中"},{"start":3169.585,"end":3195.038,"text":"其實就有關於兩大外送平台的審查案子我們基本上尊重公平會依法審理的一個程序但是就保障外送員的權益的部分我們有正式去函要求外送平台業者在跟外送工會就工會所提出有關於勞動權益的幾項重大主要達成共識之前"},{"start":3195.898,"end":3221.031,"text":"要將雙方的共識納入必要的審查文件無法達成共識的時候就不宜進入審查程序第二個部分就是我們也要求外送平台對於結合案影響外送員的重要勞動權益事項要提出具體的說明和處理的方案包括平台之間的外送員如何移轉所獲得報酬能否維持既有的水準等重要事項然後進一步承諾跟公會來具體協商"},{"start":3222.992,"end":3251.379,"text":"這部分在保障外送員權益的獲得共識之前我們不支持兩家外送員進行結合最後因應外送平台業者的這樣一個新的經濟消費模式會涉及到消費者、合作店家、外送員、平台業者及貨運業者等等涉及的層面很廣相關部會均就其全責業務範圍積極在研究管理措施目前而言交通部對於外送平台業者收取"},{"start":3252.739,"end":3281.68,"text":"相關的外送運費及費不透明導致的相關紛爭他們已經預告修正要修正外送平台機車運輸運價相關的法規這有助於保障消費者的權益那這樣一個運價的處理也有助於未來外送公會跟外送平台業者在協商報酬的一個重要的依據我們本部競表支持也會積極配合該部的推動那其他的部分就參與請大家參閱書面以上報告"},{"start":3282.26,"end":3301.807,"text":"請請各位指教謝謝好 謝謝勞動部的報告今天最後一位專題報告的我們請代表消費者的行政院消保處陳新鴻副處長來做報告其他經濟部、衛福部以及個人資料保護委員會的書面報告也請委員們參議"},{"start":3310.189,"end":3337.295,"text":"主席、各位委員還有各位在場的機關先進代表大家好那今天陳貴委員會邀請就外送平台的整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規定提出這個專題報告以下緊究外界對消費者權益較為關注的外送平台的合併案以及外送機車這個運價的修正草案報告如下請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":3337.975,"end":3357.787,"text":"第一個部分是外送平台業者的合併案這個部分那關於這樣的一個議題其實公平會已經開始做相關的行政上的一個措施那包括請各機關包括本處在內然後含尋相關的一些意見以下僅就行政院消保處相關的一些看法意見"},{"start":3358.707,"end":3384.52,"text":"在此做報告第一個部分我們認為相關的這樣一個合併案可能會造成有三種的這個可能的一個不太有利於消費者的影響第一個部分是消費者選擇權可能因為合併案而被削弱因為結合之後業者對於市場價格的這個決定具有主導權那在定價權被業者掌控的情形之下當然消費者的選擇權相對的下降"},{"start":3385.06,"end":3408.482,"text":"所以可能會被迫接受不利的條件例如在服務費用的調漲服務品質下降等等的問題那這樣有可能會產生一些的消費爭議那第二個部分是我們認為說在這個會員權的部分會不會因為合併之後而受到一些影響特別是在目前來講其實各行各業大概都會採取所謂的一個訂閱制這樣的一個消費的一個模式"},{"start":3409.162,"end":3421.708,"text":"那當然這個為了要吸引我們的消費者能夠去這個加入會員當然會有提供一些相關的一些優惠比如說免外送服務費等等之類的那如果說合併之後我們也會比較擔心說那這個時候會不會這個相關的"},{"start":3424.909,"end":3445.308,"text":"原來就的這樣的一個權益因此就會受到一些剝奪或影響第三個部分是相關的合作店家的成本的提高會不會就因此去轉嫁給我們消費者去做最後的承擔因為結合之後這個業者調帳的合作店家的譬如說像上架費、交易抽成等等的這些費用"},{"start":3445.808,"end":3463.187,"text":"那麼如果說這個因為這個店家這個我們的這個平台業者提高那我想店家可能就是轉而讓我們的消費者做最後的一些承擔所以這是正在行政院消保處的立場就消費者權益上比較憂心的這幾點如果有合併的情況發生的話"},{"start":3465.129,"end":3483.567,"text":"那麼如果說在第二個部分是關於外送機車的這個運價修正草案那當然交通部呢 剛才其實部長有報告過也就是說在相關汽車運輸管理規則的相關的規定中已經有一個草案出來就是說訂定基本運費的一個定價公式那當然運費包括啟程、運程、等待樓層等等的這些費用"},{"start":3488.491,"end":3514.974,"text":"我們比較會有一些疑慮的是在於說因為這些費用基本上來講的話其實在具體的一個實際的運用層面上可能會產生一些要等待討論的一些部分譬如說在商家如果他們完成自參貨減貨的時間如果有研製的時候這時候我們的消費者該不該負擔這樣的費用還是這是由平台負擔還是這是由我們的商家本身負擔"},{"start":3516.075,"end":3536.843,"text":"如果說沒有定清楚的話我們很擔心說這些相關的費用其實定在這個上面但實際的執行層面如果不夠清楚的話那我相信這個相關的這個消費者一定也是最後的一個受害者那第二個部分是如果說像這個草案中所提到運價準則草案中所提到的這個所謂的差別費率等等"},{"start":3537.463,"end":3554.916,"text":"那差別費率其實會比較擔心的是如果是採一個所謂的一致性的差別對這個費率或是說才有差別的一個各縣市政府不太一樣的話那這個時候會不會有一種集中效應產生也就是說這個外送員如果因為"},{"start":3555.736,"end":3584.091,"text":"可能接單的可能性比較高它就集中到這個比較大的都會區相對來講其他的縣市或其他比較偏遠的地方會不會造成說沒有外送員可以來送那我們消費權也漸漸受到一些影響所以以上來講的話其實大概也是消費者保護團體也是很關心的這種比較細節性的一些問題不過這個我們都會在相關後續的會議中也"},{"start":3584.531,"end":3608.656,"text":"跟交通部做後續的一些研商至於說在本處在針對這兩個議題所採取的消費者保護措施呢但我們發現說其實歷年來其實兩大這個我們的外送平台的消費糾紛的案件數其實也挺高的那相關的一些爭議的一個態樣包括會員權益啦或包括一些平台的退費等等這些之類"},{"start":3609.156,"end":3626.806,"text":"那有發生目前來講有發生任何的消費爭議其實各縣市政府的消保官都會做積極的一些協商處理那這個以上是就行政院消保處在這個兩個議題中所發表的所報告的一些內容那敬請各位委員指教好 謝謝行政院消保處的報告"},{"start":3628.168,"end":3652.757,"text":"好 今天我們機關的報告告一段落現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項一 詢答時間初期委員6加2分鐘 劣期委員4加1分鐘第二 委員發言登記於10點30分前截止三 各委員如有臨時提案 請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診"},{"start":3654.017,"end":3664.005,"text":"是暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第5中午原則上不休息現在我們就請登記第一位的李昆哲委員發言謝謝召委請一下陳世凱部長以及陳文睿局長、林福山市長、勞動部陳局長、林市長"},{"start":3685.061,"end":3711.061,"text":"部長好我們現在已經是正式進入一個大缺工的時代不管是相關的產業、製造業、傳統的產業另外就是跟生活相關的這些人力也缺少問題非常嚴重包含餐廳、包含司機、外送員以及相關的長照等等"},{"start":3711.901,"end":3733.14,"text":"這些人力已經是跟我們生活息息相關的人力也缺少那我們看到公共運輸來講我們看到很嚴重的運量減少營收大跌還有相關的司機缺工這個都嚴重衝擊到公共的運輸我們看到我們的市區客運"},{"start":3734.341,"end":3744.086,"text":"還有公路客運相關的搭乘人次以及收入都明顯的減少那市區客運2019跟2023來比較2023已經減少了64萬人次這是市區客運公路客運就是跨縣市還有國道客運這種公路客運少了13萬"},{"start":3757.492,"end":3773.724,"text":"人次左右那相關的營收呢市區客運少了5.32%那公路客運少了41%更嚴重那我們公路局有初步的統計公路客運缺員大概772位駕駛那市區客運缺員大概1443位駕駛總共缺少了2215位駕駛"},{"start":3782.91,"end":3804.893,"text":"部長我先請教你你認為司機大幅減少原因是什麼來簡單說明一下如果以客運來說的話因為過去三年的疫情造成客運業他們的營運上面出現了問題所以大量的司機員流失這是第一個最重要的問題因為同時間流失了這麼大量之後要補齊其實不太容易那第二個就是說人才"},{"start":3805.513,"end":3830.7,"text":"流失了之後其實他有往貨運跑因為過去的疫情的過程當中貨運業其實狀況非常的好所以人才往那邊跑或者是外送員的部分也有一些人才往那邊跑也就是說就業多元化的部分讓很多的司機員往那個地方移動那第三個問題其實是因為這段時間其實大家對於服務業尤其是客運業的服務的要求相對的高那我們有些司機員有在反映說那這樣"},{"start":3831.24,"end":3851.695,"text":"很像開公車、開客運壓力相對大一些所以這個環境讓他們不太願意留在這裡部長就是說有受到疫情的衝擊啊讓這種搭乘的人數啊大幅的減少因為疫情衝擊大家都自行的騎車或者是開車那另外就是啊"},{"start":3852.515,"end":3876.841,"text":"新資的這個結構破碎化勞動條件的這樣的一個持續的惡化這也是對司機員減少的一個原因另外年齡結構也偏高現在老駕駛多新的補充人力也不足另外這都會嚴重的影響到公共運輸的安全這個是很嚴重的問題那針對我們相關的不管是"},{"start":3880.991,"end":3899.106,"text":"運量減少、收入減少、還有司機減少那交通部要有什麼具體的作為運量減少的部分當然我們會用一些比較優惠例如說T-pass的方式希望能夠讓我們的旅客跟通勤者會願意搭客運不要自己開車、不要自己騎車這個部分我們是這樣處理"},{"start":3900.447,"end":3922.493,"text":"那針對這個它的營收減少的部分其實我們在公路局的部分對於他們的補助客運業的補助其實也相對的相當多這段時間其實大家一直在努力協助這些客運業者那我相信客運業者也有感受到那第三個其實大家比較關注的議題是這個缺工的部分那缺工的部分一方面可以解決營收又可以解決薪資就是從運價面來處理"},{"start":3925.574,"end":3944.679,"text":"運價面我們第一個來處理讓它運價可以提升並且指定一部分的薪資是要流向薪資的部分來提升這個駕駛員的這個薪資那二方面是委員您剛剛有說到他們這個年齡偏大所以我們有開放到68歲以下都可以來開這個客運從65開放到68歲那這也讓這個流財應該有1000多人的流財"},{"start":3950.561,"end":3974.854,"text":"一千三百多人的這個人數有留下來那另外針對這個橋外生的部分我們也跟這個勞動部一起在努力他目前正在這個法制化的過程當中我們希望有一些外籍的移工跟橋外生可以補充到這方面的人力那另外針對這個徵才的補助方案其實公路局也提供了非常多的這個徵才的補助那目前我們也協助了"},{"start":3975.834,"end":3997.291,"text":"大概3000多人的這個人力的補充部長不管是放寬駕駛的年齡限制或者是相關的增採的一個補助或是相關的開放這樣這個外籍的人力這樣的一個政策思考其實都是減緩問題的嚴重性而已那其實我們看日本"},{"start":3997.831,"end":4025.006,"text":"日本這樣面對大缺工他們估計到2040年為止相關的司機或是外送員、廠照人力會減少20%這是一個很嚴重的問題那我們相關的 剛才提到的相關具體措施只是減緩問題的嚴重性而已我認為必須要改善勞動條件這個才是另外一個正確的方向"},{"start":4025.566,"end":4038.978,"text":"那我們從過去的司法判決裡面就是司機跟業者相關的因為勞資的糾紛透過司法途徑來處理那相關的資料有顯示統計薪資司機的薪資問題"},{"start":4042.501,"end":4065.898,"text":"明確地點出它的薪資破碎化薪資結構破碎化的這樣一個問題我們每月薪資大概是超過10個項目來組成不管是平均薪資大概是6至9萬但是它的玉石津貼佔了15%休息日的津貼佔了18%然後國定假日津貼佔了3%"},{"start":4068.079,"end":4083.184,"text":"加班津貼是達到36%所以說超過三分之一都是加班費這代表薪資的結構破碎化也代表勞動條件的持續惡化我先請教一下勞動部陳次長"},{"start":4087.284,"end":4101.527,"text":"陳次長,我們勞動部針對司機的薪資結構我認為是必須要跟業者來對話相關的工資及工時要明確的定義化來,請你簡單說明一下是,謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":4102.543,"end":4126.382,"text":"有關於汽車貨運業相關的司機的待遇確實他因為他的那個薪資的項目組成非常的複雜那這部分我們會跟交通部一起來努力因為現在的狀況其實就是委員所指教的其實人口結構的改變然後缺工時代的來臨所以我們除了一方面要提升國內的勞參率之外一方面已經國外的"},{"start":4127.282,"end":4150.137,"text":"相關的技術人力但是在整個流財的部分最終還是取決於薪資跟勞動條件的情況能不能留住相應的資產財這就是我說所說的相關的這樣的一個薪資的結構破碎化的問題勞動條件持續惡化必須要去做改善這部分我們會跟交通部也請部長跟那個"},{"start":4151.178,"end":4176.651,"text":"交通部跟勞動部必須來合作針對這個駕駛的工資及工時還有薪資結構要明確的定義化另外我們針對相關的不管是薪資的結構、工資、工時的定義化之後交通部也必須納入行政指導的項目裡面這個有沒有問題好,來嚴懿把它加入"},{"start":4177.179,"end":4198.014,"text":"好 最後的時間我佔用一點時間偽造車牌是逐年的增加這也增加造成交通的違法那相關的數據都在上面我就不再多說這個部長跟局長也都非常清楚那我們是希望具體的建議交通部應該要"},{"start":4200.885,"end":4224.917,"text":"研議相關偽造車牌的受害者免除更換牌照的這種製造費以及相關行政規範相關的費用另外也要研議針對偽造車牌者過去的違規行為因為偽造車牌無法查緝到的罰款要進行追繳研議針對使用偽造車牌的違規行為增加代保管車輛"},{"start":4226.198,"end":4250.35,"text":"必須等到罰款繳清後才可領回還有累犯者的沒入車輛等等來部長簡單回應一下報告委員您所建議的第一項我們已經有跟這個財政部來做溝通那這個部分他們是給我們比較正面的訊息所以第一項應該是可以那第二三項的部分我們目前正在檢討當中我們都納入這些建議來檢討那目前也朝這個方向來檢討另外我們針對相關的"},{"start":4255.857,"end":4279.799,"text":"偽造車牌的這樣一個議題交通部必須提出短中長程跟明確的做法例如說我們短期的做法是不是能夠在完稅或者是驗車之後相關的來貼上一張黃尾的這樣的一個貼紙這樣來做一個基本的辨識這是短期比較可行的一個做法"},{"start":4280.419,"end":4297.388,"text":"那中長期那我們是不是針對相關的這種辨識的這樣的一個貼片在相關的可以透過我們的這種智慧的系統AI的辨識系統可以來做一個初步的認定"},{"start":4298.922,"end":4319.347,"text":"另外長期就是說是否可以植入晶片可以用這樣的一個路感的偵測器以及相關的這樣的一個警情的系統來做AR的一個辨識但是這個很重要長期的這個要只能作為辨識車牌之用不可以有其他的個資或其他的相關個人的資訊來請說明一下"},{"start":4321.848,"end":4351.208,"text":"報告委員您所說的第一項短期措施我們現在也正在努力我們希望明年就可以比較具體有一個短期的防偽功能要出來包括這個防偽貼紙的這個部分我們也納入討論那中長期的部分確實是長期應該要來建構的部分那我們也會跟公路局來討論說我們中長期的計畫是什麼因為大概用短期的這個防偽只能擋一陣子因為那個道高一尺 謀高一丈有時候他們研發的速度很快那我們中長期的部分還是要趕快來思考"},{"start":4351.548,"end":4354.372,"text":"那有關於中期措施這種RFID黃尾標籤這個目前你們有在規劃嗎?"},{"start":4359.404,"end":4388.352,"text":"來 那個局長請他準備一下跟各位報告因為車牌有些部分其實在國內已經有相關的e-tag的這個資訊所以我們大概也會再跟這個高工局就是說對於就是說因為e-tag也是用RFID的相關的一個技術所以我想就是說我們中長期的措施委員所提出來的這些部分的話其實我們都有納入考量只是說因為它確實是比較有一些相關的配套措施要一起處理"},{"start":4388.592,"end":4409.442,"text":"那短期措施明年就可以實施嗎短期措施我們有提出一些防偽功能的加強那是不是要用防偽貼紙這個部分是不是讓我們一起綜合來考量必須要盡快的相關的作為防偽功能有提升以上好 謝謝李委員接下來有請林國成委員發言"},{"start":4418.069,"end":4424.7,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請交通部陳部長、公平交易委員會李竺偉、勞動部的陳次長"},{"start":4437.196,"end":4466.556,"text":"好 三位首長早我想今天我們兩個主題啊特別要謝謝我們主席啊排這個議題當然 因為我們也常談過這兩家外賣那個烏柏易跟那個呼賓達那確確實實在整個產業當中啊是給人家感覺當然對新的產業確確實實是對於我們老百姓是很多方便"},{"start":4467.376,"end":4479.786,"text":"但是在這裡我要特別請教三位首長我現在很納悶的壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你們的看法是什麼來陳部長你先來壟斷跟競爭這兩者之間你的看法"},{"start":4488.533,"end":4514.451,"text":"就我的角度來看的話競爭幾個方面一方面可能會讓效率更好彼此競爭的話效率會更好第二對於消費者的保障可能會更多那如果是壟斷的話當然單方面來定價的話對消費者影響相對大除此之外對於在營運的這些比如說外送員來講的話他們也會處於比較弱勢的角度好來李主委"},{"start":4516.132,"end":4527.342,"text":"謝偉 基本上我們連這個壟斷都講聯合壟斷就是說兩家以上的這個同業互相合資好 如果這兩家合併以後他以後訂定的價錢壟不壟斷"},{"start":4529.54,"end":4551.595,"text":"如果合併以後它的市佔率像以這個兩家外送平台合併之後會高達八成以上這就是變成一個獨佔那獨佔我們要關鍵獨佔跟壟斷有什麼關係獨佔就是只有它一家所以我們要防止它做這個濫用獨佔地位它有沒有壟斷嘛它壟斷我們一般講聯合壟斷是說兩家以上聯合不競爭這是在我們"},{"start":4558.42,"end":4574.595,"text":"這個法律裡面是有不同的規範好 那競爭呢競爭就是兩家水平事業彼此針對價格、品質、服務條件去提供優惠的條件提供有利的條件去吸引消費者這個是競爭好 謝謝主委 來我們陳次長"},{"start":4580.02,"end":4594.369,"text":"有關於那個市場經濟當然獨佔、寡佔、壟斷這部分是公平會的權責但是就勞動部而言我們注重的是勞工的權益保護那如果他事業單位的主體有獨佔、壟斷、聯合壟斷或者是寡佔的情況他對於從業人員的"},{"start":4598.832,"end":4624.358,"text":"一家能力或者是選擇的工作的自由在A平台、B平台、C平台的選擇自由就會相對的受到削減和減弱所以勞動部基本上面才會表達意見說如果兩大平台在合併案對勞工的部分沒有獲得共識有完整的保障之前我們並不建議這樣一個事情的正面發展好 謝謝陳智我說實在的"},{"start":4629.206,"end":4642.802,"text":"壟斷就像未來兩家要合併市產佔優利百分之八十幾以上其他根本沒有競爭之平衡點那另外競爭啊勞工才有辦法生存"},{"start":4643.823,"end":4671.492,"text":"但是你壟斷幾乎沒有公、盟、獨、妻啊 講得這麼快我北五選擇就只有這一家那當然就是壟斷啦那兩大市場把它合併起來當然就是壟斷所以特別李數位你對於這些公平啊這些種種的產業當然我們要肯定你但是特別我們當民意代表的人是下情要上打所以本席"},{"start":4672.552,"end":4693.948,"text":"跟我也欽佩我們勞動部極力反對兩家Upenda他們去做合併因為他的問題是合併之後佔了八成的市場所以當然會剝奪我勞工當然會剝奪我消費者所以在這個部分我特別要提醒"},{"start":4694.628,"end":4710.401,"text":"我們李主委這個部分你們為了公平而不要做不公平的合併的核准這個特別我們要拜託我們李主委下情上打我相信每一個人每一個消費者"},{"start":4712.262,"end":4728.889,"text":"競爭他們贊成但是壟斷他們極力去反對所以在這個部分李主委今天邀請你來只要把下情上打的意見也就是老百姓的名義給你們去做參考不要因為合併"},{"start":4731.07,"end":4759.568,"text":"抵不過外商的力道你們就去做妥協這樣的話對我們台灣的消費者是不公平的我們不會因為本國商或外商做不同的考量那一切都是依據法律的這個很好但是因為我很怕喔政務官每一次跟在議事殿堂講的話跟他做的是不一樣那我要勉勵我們李主委公平"},{"start":4760.589,"end":4784.774,"text":"委員會也是屬於一個獨立單位我不希望保障這些公平的起見當中去向任何一個壓力而低頭來損壞台灣公平的機制以及競爭的機制這個部分我要特別拜託我們主委一定要挺得住"},{"start":4786.414,"end":4808.382,"text":"這樣才有辦法保護我們所有所有的消費者這一點主委做得到吧沒有問題原來我們這都不是因為各種壓力而是本於我們的專業知識我們的法令本於職權獨立做決定主委我要提醒你這都是有錄音錄影的好不好好那這個部分主委你請回來來部長"},{"start":4812.659,"end":4821.292,"text":"我們就要來談剛剛我們李昆哲、昭緯也談過的大刻印的這些短缺的問題事實上來講誰都不願意見到這個問題但是這個問題啊一定要非解決"},{"start":4828.563,"end":4836.189,"text":"並非只有延到65歲延到68歲就可以解決不是這樣剛剛講過的薪資的問題勞力的問題根據根據我們這個勞花署所統計陳次長應該要知道你看看喔從1月到7月喔"},{"start":4850.12,"end":4864.628,"text":"他大客車總共1891件的車禍當中造成25個人死亡2000多人受傷這代表什麼?這代表他是過勞的"},{"start":4866.189,"end":4892.832,"text":"他不是不休息而是沒有人來開但是你沒有人來開你不能說因為這樣子就會中斷所以這個問題部長因為我一向寄望你在台灣的建設方面你要做非常大的貢獻但是改革的部分這個你也要用一點心因為你年輕未來是有前瞻性所以"},{"start":4893.553,"end":4910.729,"text":"彼此之間立法院給你的溝通很快就可以但是把它不要像過去很多這些政務官答應立法院但是回去以後做的並非是答應之事所以我希望還是要勉勵這個問題"},{"start":4912.731,"end":4940.42,"text":"要很用心的去解決那另外當然因為人員缺少是事實但是如何去促進這些可以幫助這些人才方這個部分要拜託部長還有拜託我們司長還有我們公務局那我們勞動部當然堅持的就是勞動條件的當中不要過過於可否好不好所以這個要再度拜託我們部長好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4945.253,"end":4964.146,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來有請林沛翔委員發言謝謝主席 有請陳部長跟我們這個交通部陳部長這個公路局的這個陳局長陳公路局局長"},{"start":4974.737,"end":4992.549,"text":"部長根據剛剛我看到的資料上面講說是國道客運的缺員人數是772人差不多是將近18%那在地區的在地區的這個在地區的這個市區巴士缺員差不多1443人估計算起來剛剛差不多是總人數的12%我想請問這個數據是什麼時候計算出來的"},{"start":4999.212,"end":5018.15,"text":"跟委員報告就是今年的一個統計是今年統計對吧對 今年統計所以說你剛剛在上面講的這個3000你們說從2020年開始所增的兩三千兩百那是累積累積出來兩三千兩百已經加進去了但是還是不夠不是跟委員報告累積因為有一些部分還在受訓"},{"start":5018.911,"end":5044.925,"text":"就是說他是就是我們招募進來因為他的就是說受訓他有期間然後取得這個大客車的駕照的話他還有一些經驗的時間的限制所以像今年的缺員的部分今年的招募活動還招募了500多位進來因為這個人數其實看起來是非常的非常的可怕尤其是說如果我們只講說18%如果說國道客運少18%的司機能夠開車的話實質上班次就可能少不只不只18%"},{"start":5046.446,"end":5069.941,"text":"這其實對於基隆到台北甚至桃園到台北的這個通行主來講是很大是很大的危機而我剛剛在這邊報告裡面看到說你們在明年2025年2月28號你們對於這個補助的計畫就會停止對不對那請問你們有新的計畫嗎跟各位報告因為部長也有指示就是說因為招募駕駛的這一個還是不夠所以我們就是說這個明年2月底之後還會持續再辦理"},{"start":5070.481,"end":5086.766,"text":"我們舊的計畫結束新的還會繼續整理那個缺工的問題一定要解決而且會依照這個像這個比如這個勞動的這個基本薪資也調升了所以我們的生活津貼也跟著調升因為我會希望說你們會提出來新的計畫就是有關因為真的缺工很嚴重"},{"start":5087.746,"end":5100.721,"text":"全國非常嚴重的情況之下那我們現在你剛我剛看到說要去找外籍勞工啊還是說去找僑生啊其實某個時候都緩不及急我自己常在第一線跟這些通勤族朋友或是跟這些司機們他們談其實他們對這裡都有點"},{"start":5102.363,"end":5104.304,"text":"這件事情與其說我們現在去找外籍僑生還是外籍員工進來"},{"start":5119.87,"end":5144.373,"text":"倒不如比較務實一點說針對現在能不能讓我們多一點的人來多一點的司機來願意來開這個客車尤其是我記得我剛到立法院的時候我就特地辦了一個協調會有關這個對於司機對於客運司機能不能讓他們工作環境好一點因為我們很多次我們其實剛剛那個李崑哲我也講到說很多大客車司機為什麼不願意開因為他們接受太多無理的客宿"},{"start":5145.334,"end":5172.259,"text":"這件事我想局長跟部長部長可能聽過可是局長知道很清楚那我常講誤妄誤重也就是說如果說司機的服務品質的確不好那的確要入職懲處但是如果司機的服務品質沒有不好而是遇到一些比較無理取鬧的乘客的時候那麻煩客運公司跟公務總局這邊特地要保護這些司機因為他們已經是非常辛苦已經在過勞的情況在開車而我們也知道國道客運其實非常的塞"},{"start":5172.939,"end":5178.305,"text":"好那接下來第二個問題有請那個不好意思部長請你再留一下有請這個勞動部的勞動部的陳次長對"},{"start":5189.878,"end":5207.279,"text":"委員好部長跟次長其實我這一個有關外送平台的專報告是我請我們主席幫忙排的那其實一排了之後其實就有很多各方面的好朋友來跟我提說有關他們的需求跟他們的苦衷"},{"start":5207.739,"end":5222.866,"text":"那我個人還是認為說這個法這個修訂規則因為他們跟我講過很多為什麼會是交通部來辦因為目前來講這只有客貨運輸管理規則可以去幫助到這一塊所以說整個運費的部分是"},{"start":5224.267,"end":5246.448,"text":"而且也只有這個法能夠實質上幫助到這些外送員而這些外送員來講我會認為這個是在一個不透明的運價之中保障他們權益的基本作為所以我對這個法是給予肯定的不過另外一方面我會在這邊想說請教說部長有沒有機會開公聽會因為這方面有太多還是已經開過應該還沒開過吧"},{"start":5248.37,"end":5264.886,"text":"公聽會沒有開過之前呢部裡面有邀請這個業者跟這個工會大家一起來協商但我要求我們的公路局因為未來的定價是五方協商中央政府消費者再加工會然後再加產業的方面的代表"},{"start":5265.086,"end":5286.833,"text":"大家都想知道發生什麼事這個案子其實已經太多人在關注了而我們在第一線的時候有聽到很多這個不只是外送平台甚至外送業者會跟我講說到底發生什麼事那其實所謂的我當初擔心的事情可能不是只有就是整個事情關於巧麗明目的事情可能是因為這個運價本身就不透明"},{"start":5287.753,"end":5313.779,"text":"剛開始在4年前的時候他們一單可以收70塊可是4年後可能一單可能收不到40塊的時候難怪外送業者會覺得他們被剝削那這個情況的話其實我為什麼把勞動部次長請上來因為這個問題的話我們如果說要讓這個公式我知道最後面出來會有一個所謂計算公式計算運價的公式要讓這公式能夠透明化讓大家知道這公式存在之外而且讓大家知道說這每一個費用是為什麼而調整"},{"start":5314.659,"end":5329.852,"text":"我抽來他們跟我來解釋之後我聽得懂所謂樓層費而且樓層費是有必要的存在這個我認同當初是我了解不夠深但是這些事情應該讓全部人都知道因為不是只有這些外送員需要這個事情消費者也要知道這方面的事情"},{"start":5329.972,"end":5357.183,"text":"報告委員我們在下一週的禮拜三已經約了各方包含消基會的董事長跟他們的代表也都會來大家會先做一個會議會先做一個會議在下週三那下週三大概各方討論的結論我也會再向委員來報告好 謝謝 謝部長那再來有請這個公平交易委員會的李主委好 李主委部長謝謝再接下來再接下來跟部長比較沒有說那個市長還是要留著不好意思"},{"start":5357.803,"end":5384.924,"text":"委員長因為為什麼問主委因為我在國外很長一段時間國外對於monopoly對於所謂的壟斷是深惡痛絕的甚至我記得美國有所謂反托拉斯法但是我在那邊看到的時候其實老實講為什麼不喜歡壟斷的原因是因為這樣不會造成公平競爭如果一個市場上沒有公平競爭的話最會倒楣的就是消費者跟所有從業人員可能最後面只有資本家得利這點主委認同嗎"},{"start":5387.466,"end":5404.125,"text":"我只是問你有沒有認同這個事情對於獨佔、壟斷的行為在競爭法都會有一些嚴格的管制因為我為什麼會這樣講的原因是這是從美國的法治精神來看當然台灣的法跟美國法可以不一樣但是為什麼這樣講因為當我看到Uber Eats跟Foodpanda加起來一定超過80%是戰略的時候"},{"start":5406.087,"end":5422.112,"text":"我們就覺得這個地方好像有點需要我們需要去關注我現在直接問說目前他們這個merger他們這個訂購的進度進度到什麼時候這兩家平台來申報結合目前我們在補件的階段"},{"start":5422.792,"end":5434.796,"text":"現在補件的程序已經完成了嗎?我們要補的一些包括今天還有各界的這些關切我們還有需要的一些文件都請他要補齊說明"},{"start":5436.596,"end":5459.683,"text":"我為什麼會特地把這個事情拿出來講因為老實說如果當這個合併完成的時候其實對於這些外送平台的外送員的溢價空間他們要符合他們自己的公平的權利的溢價空間他們的溢價能力會大幅度的下降因為全台灣就只有一家外送平台"},{"start":5460.143,"end":5484.474,"text":"變成是說當他如果是這個不合理的議價也好或是是半公開的議價也好變成是說他們的議價空間太少的時候最後面羊毛出來牆身上最後面會變成是消費者受損不是錢上面受損而是沒有人願意去做這個外送的工作那這一點其實反而是幫整個市場從我的觀點來講反而是整個壓縮整個市場的整個市場的發展反而是無法提供到這方面的服務"},{"start":5485.094,"end":5504.879,"text":"所以說 請問我們公平會對於這個想法呢你們覺得這個狀況會不會發生嗎結合後整個市場結構的改變對消費者、店家、利害關係人、餐廳等等各方面的這些改變都是我們在審酌這個結合案一個很重要的參考因素我為什麼剛剛直接部長來說現在部長下來我為什麼直接說藥工廳會"},{"start":5508.22,"end":5524.939,"text":"因為這些事情其實我不是預設立場而是如果我們看到這些事情可能有60%以上發生的機會的時候我們就必須正視這個問題既然大家覺得Foodpanda跟Uber Eats這種外送平台對台灣社會是好事對於我們全民是好事的時候但是我們卻知道說這個有壟斷也有可能"},{"start":5525.319,"end":5553.33,"text":"有可能會造成消費者甚至所有人受傷害只有資本家得利的時候我們就必須站出來看一下說是不是有機會把這個事情全部說出來製造一個出來一個合理合法和公平的公式讓整個事情能夠做一個很好解決我想對整個市場的結構競爭的自信以及利害關係人的權益各方面在公平會都會通盤去考量而且我們舉辦的臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都舉辦了公聽會對於各界的意見我們都有掌握"},{"start":5553.49,"end":5573.116,"text":"我很期待說我們在這邊我們最後面看到這個客運這個應該叫做客貨運運輸業規則的修訂最後面是一個相對比較是叫一個完好的結果我們知道這是最基本的法這是最基本對他們的權益的保障不然的話他們不會出來說大聲呼籲要這個法而我認同他們的想法"},{"start":5573.456,"end":5598.805,"text":"但是這些事情上面來講或許應該讓更多人知道尤其是讓這個end user所謂的一般的消費者知道說其實他們這些外送委員我們知道他們辛苦但是我們也要說他們辛苦是有價值的他們辛苦是有代價的這樣才能符合我們所謂公平正義的社會好 謝謝好 謝謝林佩祥委員接下來有請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5605.66,"end":5629.177,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部陳部長陳部長部長今天跟你來討論一下就是我們很多人關心的現在一些大車的駕駛短缺人力的問題"},{"start":5631.543,"end":5657.581,"text":"根據交通部的數字其實我掌握到的數字是這樣就是我們的市區客運因為駕駛短少少了15%的班次乘客人數就少了21%因為班次少載的人就少這是市區客運公路客運就像高速公路那種公路客運更嚴重它少了36%的班次"},{"start":5660.191,"end":5686.97,"text":"少了40%的乘客人數以前公路客運很便捷最高峰我記得好像15分鐘就一班一個小時可能三班、四班現在有的比較慘的一個小時剩一班你越不方便很多人就越不願意去搭乘當然也有市場競爭的問題比如鐵路、高鐵的競爭問題但是到底少了多少職業駕駛"},{"start":5689.865,"end":5698.827,"text":"根據你們交通部的統計公路少了772位市區少了1443位總共少了2215位大貨車貨櫃車駕駛嚴重短缺甚至是我們載人的客運公車這其實都影響到國家的競爭力你們說要補助貨運業相關行業去聘請駕駛"},{"start":5719.418,"end":5739.402,"text":"報酬幾檔啊?從108年開始有沒有效?108辦了一次然後之後是111年9月開始到現在我數字給你看你月補助一萬一千多人你聽到意思嗎?過程有引進了三千多人但是流失的我來提一個你們可以當參考"},{"start":5743.462,"end":5754.048,"text":"我認為啊 也許可以速度的再提高 就延長既有的職業駕駛 那種大車職業駕駛 退休的年齡啊計程車啊 我們從65歲 以前載客人車載到65歲 演練到68歲 現在計程車可以開到70歲你看日本 有些銀髮駕駛 開得很好"},{"start":5770.063,"end":5791.141,"text":"對不對那職業的這種大車駕駛啊你也許可以比照考慮啦你只要第一個這個駕駛他沒有重大肇事的前科對不對第二個身體健康你當然你可以要求68歲他現在可以開到68歲嘛對不對他可以開到70歲如果68歲過你本來要提供一些嘛你的那個認知體檢嘛"},{"start":5797.099,"end":5824.554,"text":"是不是這樣子?第三,你限制他的工作時數就是說他不能回家啦對不對?他台南開到台中嘛你只要再多一些配套措施我跟你講,現在有些人啦七十歲了身體比我還好啦是不是這樣?這樣最快啦而且他開了一輩子的車啦他跑的路線他也熟啦車輛他也熟啦"},{"start":5826.092,"end":5844.402,"text":"如果他有意願他想要再延長就業那我們就配套給他嘛你辦理身體檢查一次我查看你有沒有重大肇事前科第三你不能跑一天不能開超過8小時因為這樣業者很快他熟練的員工駕駛他可以留下來那你們不做啦只要要補助他就請不上年人你知道嗎"},{"start":5851.653,"end":5859.813,"text":"那現在因為職業教職現在各行各業都缺人啦不是只有職業教職缺人啦所以大家都在搶人"},{"start":5863.065,"end":5888.372,"text":"你當然相對工作條件環境啦這個告訴就開始運用了那部長有意見嗎報告委員隨著國人的年紀的延長我們的壽命一直在延長所以這個議題未來一定會一直討論到啦大家的工作的年紀大概也會往後延你應該就跟業者座談嘛業者也提出這樣的一個需求嘛那我再請教工種啦這個部分我們之前開放到68歲已經有1300多人"},{"start":5890.533,"end":5909.11,"text":"對阿那您剛建議的那幾項剛好現在我們針對到68歲也大概都是這樣做那您的建議很好如果延到70歲是不是再更加嚴一點好健康對所以我要請教請教工種嘛你計程車從68延長到70有沒有造成什麼樣的重大不良"},{"start":5910.19,"end":5936.816,"text":"各位報告還是開得很好啊對 也是一步一步啦就像委員說的就是說它逐步延長以後它可能有一些配套的措施有一些資格條件或者是限制的營業的一些條件部長我覺得這樣可能比較快可以解決這個問題可以試試看啦這個是蠻具體的應該研究的方向否則啦因為有些價值確實如果有問題現在的業者也不敢把價值淘汰啦"},{"start":5938.217,"end":5960.372,"text":"他欠沒人啦,這個架樹就失管賣啦,吃分補兵啦,開車常這樣有的沒的有人投書幹嘛,他不敢換他啦,我就欠沒人,我把工錢換掉了那就容易造成很大的問題啦,你知道政府花了很多錢在處理大車的行車安全肇事件數啦,死傷人數啦,每年都增加啦部長你看到我在交通委員會這幾年"},{"start":5964.946,"end":5974.274,"text":"政府開多少百億改善耗資、危險路口、危險道路、大車、視野輔助系統開多少錢你知道嗎?造勢建築啊,等於就整個啊每一年大車啦,弄死人啦,受傷的人啦逐年攀升,你看那個數字可不可怕啦去年已經多少人了?去年"},{"start":5990.41,"end":5997.114,"text":"去年已經有一萬三千六百個人因為大車的造勢事故而造成死傷這有一部分當然是教書的部分有一部分就是政府該做的不要耗資危險入口的設計所以你們要把這個納入你們的施政目標"},{"start":6012.884,"end":6040.522,"text":"中央跟地方花了幾百億只要有相關交通安全的預算沒有人不支持的你換了什麼部長你的意見看一下這個部分其實我覺得從勞工的補充面來思考大型車輛它的造勢的部分看可不可以有所控制這個部分其實各方面都在努力工程面也好教育面也好監理面也好都在努力但是勞工的問題確實是應該要解決"},{"start":6042.624,"end":6045.746,"text":"市區公車有那種定期訓練,他每年都要回來訓練,還有職權講習訓練,這個效果好不好?"},{"start":6059.299,"end":6085.925,"text":"這個效果應該是應該是有的還是回來後面說說大家回來打瞌睡看個電影對沒有就是說有效啦有效有效有效因為會對於事故的比如說防範或是有一些法規的最新修正都會來做那個訓導部長部長他們說說有好嗎如果之前講是他每年定期訓練有效我說的是營業大課市區的大課車啦那你大車為什麼不用"},{"start":6087.603,"end":6088.563,"text":"大貨車會不會用視野輔助系統 我也不曉得他那個輪差死角"},{"start":6104.387,"end":6121.555,"text":"還有那個他在駕駛上一些該注意的事項還有重大事故可以引為教訓的案例、講習你想要沒有?我們這些迴訊應該是要逐步擴大現在只有客車的部分很多年了啊有人在講的說其他的大車對阿我問問阿應該是要有這個要繼續擴大"},{"start":6126.588,"end":6151.27,"text":"對啊 昨天你跟我說沒有 我就不用再問了 你跟我說有效嗎沒有啦 要持續要有效 你想要大聲嗎對 就是持續就是說來做這個對象我們再持續擴充 然後一些因為肇事事件最多的 死傷人數最多的 你不去處理他們為什麼不必接受這些訓練 如果這些訓練有效另外 我要請你們要注意這些訓練真的有效嗎"},{"start":6153.697,"end":6180.226,"text":"真的去修分料對於行車安全有沒有提升有幫助嗎?我認為你們的課程訓練你們這些算是大官啦你也要給他了解一下看這個有沒有啦要讓他更有效因為還有一個很奇怪的現象部長你知道嗎?我們現在是不是欠架數?對那大車啦越買越多啦大車掛牌數字越來越多耶我想奇怪你的車就沒有人開的時候怎麼掛牌的車越來越多"},{"start":6183.769,"end":6190.394,"text":"你出去看喔,大貨車大貨車108年全國16萬5千部,現在已經到17萬6千部了喔?多少多少啊?到底什麼原因?我在猜喔是不是車不可以去用吊牌的我這裡,我因為沒有時間,我再跟你們提醒一點啦齁我希望大家要去檢討一個你罰人再罰車除了獨駕、九駕啦你把車牌吊了啦除了喔"},{"start":6214.059,"end":6243.194,"text":"你罰人那有沒有必要一定要罰車啦你講他廢車就是說他現在計點計了啊手機計點了你現在把大車撬白板那營業大貨車這是他的課程你吃飯的啊是不是這樣或者是有些一般人他車子可能是他生活必須他要生意上班啦他要帶孩子啦帶出來死大人啊他如果不對你就把他換嘛你把他撬白板他就不會開車啦"},{"start":6244.918,"end":6253.681,"text":"車子會自己超速嗎?車子會自己亂跑嗎?那是人的問題吧?對,但是你除非很特殊的,像是獨駕啦,稀獨駕駛,或是說酒駕,那你車子白了,白了沒關係啦否則啊,你幹嘛,你是紅髮人,還是紅髮車?那有遺罪,遺罪的量罷了車子會自己超速嗎?那都人的不對嘛"},{"start":6267.779,"end":6269.36,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝林委員接下來有請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":6299.638,"end":6303.48,"text":"謝謝主席我們請局長跟公路局長陳局長那司長也一起來公共運輸林司長謝謝部長剛才林軍憲委員提到的這個"},{"start":6320.552,"end":6336.665,"text":"法人跟法車這個部分我希望說交通部真的是可以有一個再演繹一下真的是民運相當多進度要不要請司長跟您報告大概什麼時候會有跟這部分跟我們報告一下"},{"start":6338.446,"end":6364.663,"text":"針對營業車輛的一個部分的話如果是駕駛人的違規行為比如說危險駕駛而導致要調購車牌的這個部分那現在在裁罰的部分已經有做處理只要公司對於這個駕駛人的一個訓練跟管理有善盡安全的管理的一個責任那這個責任的部分的話就包括公司有定期舉辦教育訓練等的部分的話這個部分對公司的車輛就不會再做處罰現在已經在裁罰這個部分已經有建立這樣子的機制"},{"start":6365.163,"end":6384.755,"text":"OK 這個什麼時候會公布跟委員報告一下這個交通部的這個函式都已經下去了然後各個這個財閥機構也都是這樣子辦理OK 好 謝謝那剛林委員也提到那個死亡率我們看一下臺灣跟日本我們跟其他國家做一下比較"},{"start":6387.409,"end":6399.998,"text":"日本就是去年的日本他們人口數比我們台灣多五六倍啦他們的死亡人數是兩千六我們台灣的死亡人數是三零二三"},{"start":6401.138,"end":6425.445,"text":"你可以看到這樣子的差距那韓國也是一樣他們人口數我們的兩倍那死亡數也比我們低所以我今天希望說提供一個概念就是說之前的部長我都有質詢過但是交通部好像都還沒動那我想跟部長再講一次也希望說我們的司長跟局長可以做一下不同的觀念的思考那以前我們習慣就是"},{"start":6427.105,"end":6451.304,"text":"道路安全、交通安全基本法等等的事實上我們對交通安全教育真的是做得比較少那也許交通部會認為說這個是交通部的業務還是交通部的業務事實上我再請教市長或部長、局長日本的小孩子過馬路會舉手你知道嗎有看過"},{"start":6452.608,"end":6476.309,"text":"他們是幾乎每個小朋友只要過馬路就舉手為什麼?因為小朋友小嘛他們習慣訓練就是過馬路就舉手這就是從小做起所以交通安全教育的重要性之前我也跟小慧、山漢辦過公聽會那也質詢過但是現在看起來是沒有什麼具體的成果"},{"start":6477.407,"end":6503.694,"text":"所以我想先給三位一個觀念然後就是說這個交通安全教育車這個其實當然都是交通部在主政的交通部可能也沒做這些東西啦那你可以看到他們選的教育車一年都會到校一次這是強迫你每一年你要到校一次然後你去訓練孩子不同的觀念"},{"start":6505.318,"end":6531.884,"text":"那從幼稚園每一年一次一小時國小生他訓練怎麼用步行過馬路國中生訓練騎腳踏車還要注意什麼叫做安全高中生也先滿18歲騎機車了他的教育安全所以你可以看到這個日本大概我們再看前一頁這個日本其實在大概20年前他的死亡人數大概1萬6千人"},{"start":6534.09,"end":6562.508,"text":"你看這20年來他就是長期走遠他才可以這樣子去降低死亡率所以當然現在交通部所做的不管是大車的就是靠要轉向的警示啦或者是他任何的死角的警示等等的這些都是必要但是另外一個觀念交通部一直還沒有開啟這個觀念就是從教育做起所以我們再來看那個行動博物館"},{"start":6563.976,"end":6590.897,"text":"事實上現在那個歷史博物館已經都有行動博物館專車到全台巡迴展演那這個觀念我也諮詢過現在的河岸會以前的園人會他們現在已經變成說每一年他會辦一個園整人科技的科普展那氣象署現在他們也懂得說我到校服務所以這個巡迴專車其實是一個概念"},{"start":6592.302,"end":6615.083,"text":"那交通部是不是可以開始去做這個思考從小學從幼稚園做起根本去改變孩子的觀念我想說我們經過兩年後是不是看到我們的國小幼稚園學生過馬路都會舉手這有沒有差別有差別啊你有些車子的視角不一樣那是太矮了嘛你多了一個高度至少看得到嘛"},{"start":6616.059,"end":6625.821,"text":"那這個是很簡單的動作但是你要做到全台灣都能做就沒有那麼容易那當然他山之石可以工作好的我們就學嘛"},{"start":6627.028,"end":6651.996,"text":"我覺得這個是不是部長可以用一下心了好 報告委員如果台灣人的這個交通上面的觀念可以跟日本的教育一樣這麼徹底的話我相信台灣的交通的狀況會好非常多啦對所以我到了交通部之後也一直拜託我們裡面的同仁針對這個所謂的交通安全的教育的推廣的部分要多花點心思甚至要多花一些預算是做一些有效的"},{"start":6652.796,"end":6654.537,"text":"所以是不是可以開始做了?因為現在我還沒看到交通部在做"},{"start":6669.782,"end":6697.409,"text":"其實每一年都有很多的交通安全教育的宣導費用有但是都撥到地方政府去由地方政府下去做那或許現在大家看到比較沒有具體的成果那我們未來會拿到交通部來努力來做就是我們總是特別重視交通的就是我們交通部嘛那安全當然是我們最重要的嘛那另外還有交通博物館齁我們先看那個台灣有個兒童教育博物館齁"},{"start":6699.042,"end":6726.997,"text":"以前曾經有過啦台灣那一張以前台灣兒童交通教育博物館以前曾經有過1992年的時候在台北市那現在已經沒有了在2008年的時候轉成客家園區當然它有各族群有不同的需要但是我們是不是有機會交通部來規劃一個兒童交通安全博物館現在全國只剩下一個地方叫做麗寶"},{"start":6728.362,"end":6754.765,"text":"那個地方是民間自己在經營的是 那個我去過你去過嘛所以這個兒童交通博物館事實上你可以看到世界各大國都有這種交通博物館我們左邊這個是美國就是左上角跟中間這個圖這個是美國的交通博物館然後底下那個是英國倫敦的交通博物館這些圖片都讓部長再參考一下"},{"start":6755.606,"end":6784.188,"text":"然後我們再看回來那個各國交通博物館都是由中央在主導日本的其餘的鐵道博物館是左邊這個圖左下方是瑞士的交通博物館那下面的左邊的是英國倫敦再來最右下角的是德國德勒斯登皇宮它有好幾個不同的主題其中一個主題是交通博物館所以我們讓那個部長知道一下交通博物館事實上它的重要性"},{"start":6785.089,"end":6812.878,"text":"然後再來看一下山濱日本山濱他們這個兒童交通公園目前台灣有兩座一個在我們鳳山新墻公園那這個也是當時交通部有補助200萬也謝謝交通部那又下腳這個是萬華青年公園所以你可以看到這個我們的交通公園跟兒童交通公園跟日本的兒童交通公園其實有一些差距這個他們都是實地實況去模擬的"},{"start":6814.939,"end":6844.071,"text":"改天有機會再放一下蠟筆小鮮的那個片子那個交通交易給部長參考那個其實很有趣他們就是從這樣子從小就這樣做起要從小做起所以最後有一個希望就是說我們高雄有一塊高雄機場那這一塊地呢綠色的這些部分呢是讓市府現在也在規劃交通公園或親子公園那日本三品他們小朋友很多人學騎腳踏車是去那個地方學"},{"start":6844.966,"end":6865.639,"text":"像你在都市裡面,台北人很多人不會騎腳踏車,不知道要怎麼做交通公園其實又安全,所以這個是一個好的概念所以市府現在已經有考慮在做這個交通公園、親子公園等等在我們這一塊高雄機場那另外呢,部長有看到那個左上方六連棟那裡"},{"start":6867.082,"end":6891.879,"text":"首先左上方六連棟那個現在是本來是我們台鐵的地現在要保留啦現在要保留那保留的話我們裡面要怎麼配置呢剛才那麼多的交通那個交通博物館的圖有讓部長看你可以看我們這一塊這個那個上方這些都是那個透空的而且那個挑高的所以這個地方你看起來跟那個美國"},{"start":6893.427,"end":6901.835,"text":"跟那個美國那一張圖你看這一張中間這個美國上面的那個是不是鏤空的那是不是挑高的是不是吊滿了飛機"},{"start":6904.201,"end":6932.21,"text":"所以其實類似這樣子的概念如果說在高雄機場這一塊地這是台鐵跟市府現在都市計畫變更應該我們再鋪尋它進度快一點應該快要通過了這個通過之後是不是有機會設兒童交通博物館有機會設兒童交通公園這個交通部用一點心事實上日本三病這個不是只有台灣人去不是只有日本人去很多觀光客去都會去參觀"},{"start":6933.49,"end":6961.793,"text":"都會去那邊尤其帶小朋友的那邊還可以提供腳踏車免費的所以這樣子一個概念交通公園、交通安全博物館如果在高雄機場這一塊區域可以實現那未來其實包括全台灣的人或是各國的觀光客都有可能會來這個地方看一看我們台灣的規劃小朋友很喜歡去所以尤其是觀光客有帶小朋友來的他都很喜歡去"},{"start":6963.174,"end":6984.524,"text":"是不是請那個部長跟局長、市長那當然這個跟台鐵有關那這一塊是不是有機會這樣子做一個那包括我們的巡迴車巡迴車一起去做思考跟我們台灣的交通教育正式開始做這樣好不好好希望那個交通部一起努力這相當好建議謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":6990.652,"end":7000.115,"text":"好 謝謝許委員先做一下宣告待會到我本人魯明哲委員發言完畢休息10分鐘接下來有請廖軒翔委員發言好 謝謝昭偉麻煩邀請我們的陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":7021.583,"end":7044.587,"text":"部長 早安今天有討論到我們公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺的問題其實我在今年的上半年也有在交委會有質詢一個議題那時候你還不在那我就是跟交通部建議應該要推動高速公路的自動駕駛的一個系統那"},{"start":7050.011,"end":7063.034,"text":"不曉得如果說部長聽到這樣的建議你認為推動高速公路或者是快速道路的一個自駕的貨車的這個開放啦就是開放他們這樣子的運行對我們的交通部有哪些好處"},{"start":7064.332,"end":7086.106,"text":"第一個當然是勞力的部分可以減少第二個如果那個系統是可靠而又可信的話那個安全度或許會比人還高一些但是第三個問題是說目前為止很像台灣還沒有發生過這樣子的系統好處就前面那兩個還有一個當天其實我主要的論述點有兩個第一個就剛剛部長講的"},{"start":7086.886,"end":7114.319,"text":"未來自駕技術一定比人開車還來得安全這是我們可以看 絕對看得到的目標現在不一定但是未來一定是這樣子以及我們可以紓解我們的目前道路擁捨的情形因為我們的高速公路目前塵封了運輸的情況非常的擁捨那可以只要有自駕系統我們可以把自駕的運輸量移到離峰這是可以目前看得到對我們運輸有立即的好處那另外連帶的好處就是我們的這個"},{"start":7115.459,"end":7138.875,"text":"人力短缺的問題可以連帶的來獲得一些紓緩但是在那一次的質詢之後我感覺交通部一直給我搞錯方向好像交通部一直以為我要推動臺灣的自駕系統的一個推進但是我的立場是說應該是我所以說之後交通部一直去找經濟部希望經濟部來主導這件事情"},{"start":7139.275,"end":7165.17,"text":"因為自駕確實是我們經濟部在推的但是我為什麼會來質詢我們交通部因為現在是我們交通部遇到的問題我們交通部遇到了道路容量不夠的問題我們交通部遇到了可能這個事故我們希望它降低的一個問題第三個我們交通部遇到了人力短缺的問題這都是我們交通部遇到的問題應該是我們遇到問題的單位去尋求其他可以來幫我們解決問題的單位一起找他來幫忙"},{"start":7168.092,"end":7187.632,"text":"而不是把我在這邊詢問的問題推給經濟部所以說我希望說我們的交通部在未來是不是能夠明確的推出有關於我們大貨車、自駕的一個未來的一個明確的政治的一個政策的一個方針跟目標"},{"start":7188.775,"end":7210.723,"text":"報告委員在大客車的部分它的自駕的發展的部分其實交通部是有參與的不是只有經濟部那當然經濟部為主因為這是產業面的部分是經濟部為主但是交通部的部分在客車的部分其實是有加入一些計畫的那對於貨車的部分可能我們還沒有因為對交通部來講委員說的沒有錯交通部最大的問題"},{"start":7212.083,"end":7212.964,"text":"載貨跟載人哪一個比較麻煩?哪一個難度比較高?"},{"start":7229.532,"end":7249.357,"text":"應該是載人比較高啦載人的難度比較高啊對不對你載人不是只有從A點到B點啦你載人會有車上會有新操的問題你會有緊急的醫療的問題你要再去其他地方啊對不對人就是會產生講直接一點人會產生額外的其他的麻煩的問題或不會甚至可能發生事故的時候"},{"start":7251.06,"end":7272.113,"text":"如果說是載客的話那會是非常嚴重的一個社會事件如果是載貨而已的話那是會是一個很單純的財損問題而已所以說我當初我不知道為什麼當初交通部跟經濟部在討論這件事情的時候會從自駕公車開始那包括自駕公車就是考量到公共運輸對那考量到自駕公車他可能他沒有辦法"},{"start":7272.833,"end":7287.113,"text":"他的規模性可能沒有辦法放大因為就算今天你在特定的點淡水那一邊新市鎮有試辦難不成你淡水試辦成功的點你有辦法外擴到中和永和嗎板橋嗎你不可能外擴嘛你試辦點結束之後"},{"start":7288.775,"end":7316.738,"text":"就是你整個計畫結束了你很難去擴張到其他地方但是貨運不是貨運就是道路系統、高速公路系統、快速道路系統你只要能夠成功你在所有的點都能夠試成功那加上我們的高速公路跟我們的快速道路相對起來是封閉的高速公路是絕對是最安全的道路系統只有汽車快速道路可能還會有重型計車大型的重機所以說高速公路相對起來是最安全"},{"start":7318.394,"end":7346.253,"text":"對於實驗者來說他是一個最好去試驗的一個沙盒的場域當然對高速公路局來說他當然不希望嘛因為當高速公路可能發生事故的時候對他來說車速比較快等等每個單位有不同的考慮的因素但是我在看到這份報告的時候我會認為說我們好像就是都在提一些過去比較傳統的一些解決的方針我們沒有利用現在世界科技的一個發展利用自駕的技術來解決我們現在面對的問題"},{"start":7348.454,"end":7367.75,"text":"那不曉得我們部長經過我們這樣子的討論那你對於未來不管是對於我們駕駛短缺啊我們當然駕駛的平間制度絕對最重要的就是安全嘛對不對那對於這樣子的一個自駕技術部長未來你自己的觀念的看法跟未來可能會怎麼引領交通部來跟這個世界潮流來做一個間接"},{"start":7368.51,"end":7390.422,"text":"我覺得委員你的建議很好而且很具體就是說朝自駕的方向大概是人類的趨勢這必然要做各國都在努力當中雖然沒有做到很具體而且非常可靠的系統還沒出來但台灣在這個部分也很努力所以才會有這個機場T3的那個外面的營運的部分是希望是用自駕系統"},{"start":7390.982,"end":7412.931,"text":"那這個部分其實也是我們希望投入一些資源能夠下去做研發跟研究那這個部分當然委員您所提供的就是針對貨運的部分我們回去來研議看看看有沒有可能貨運會不會相對簡單一些那國道會不會更相對簡單一些或許過去沒有聚焦在討論到這一塊只有針對客運的部分那未來我們針對貨運的部分我們另外再做討論"},{"start":7413.951,"end":7424.859,"text":"副部長持一個開放的態度然後定確明確的方針跟目標我們不一定要在幾年前但是這是我們交通部未來一定要做一定要引入的一個科技上一次為什麼會在這邊質詢是因為我們的經濟部已經把這樣的技術"},{"start":7429.753,"end":7452.923,"text":"這個行銷到、支援到澳洲去澳洲用我們台灣經濟部的一個輔導的一個技術在澳洲的高速公路來做這件事情結果我們自己的交通部沒有在推廣這件事情那包括日本、包括美國他們都已經在做這件事情了都已經在做這件事情我們的交通部已經起步比別人慢了"},{"start":7453.263,"end":7473.331,"text":"所以我就希望說在這件事情我們就希望能夠部長持一個開放的態度明確的方針我們自己也有科技師嘛對不對用科技師來協助我們的公務局那協助我們的高速公務局因為包括我知道公務局也有沙盒實驗嘛因為之前在台六一可能發生一個擦撞"},{"start":7474.031,"end":7499.446,"text":"對不對 你在高速公路局會擦撞到腳踏車嗎不會嘛 就是因為你在平面道路如果說你在快速道路你會擦撞到腳踏車嗎不會啊 你就是在平面道你才會你跟摩托車跟其他的交通的那個交織的情況一定會更為的風險更為增加嘛 好不好那另外還有提一點啊 就是有關我們的這個大客車啦我們過去在大客車的一些制度上面我們常常都是只有"},{"start":7500.711,"end":7519.989,"text":"棒子而已我們沒有一個羅波假設說我們可能你違規怎麼樣的情況那你可能會被吊扣執照我們大概現行的制度都是這樣子而已但是我們沒有針對他說法給相對給他一個好的一個獎勵給他在可能在道路通行上面比較好的一個"},{"start":7521.25,"end":7538.324,"text":"行駛的一個條件我其實之前有具體提過一個建議啦我們現在的雪山隧道其實禁止大貨車通行的那當然裡面有一些消防的考量那還有其他考量其實我都跟幕僚單位提過啦我提出的問題我幕僚單位提出的問題也都沒辦法明確的回應我也不敢再來啦"},{"start":7539.738,"end":7562.523,"text":"但是我們現在台二線每天走瑞芳到貢寮芙蓉貢寮到宜蘭每天大貨車就是繞那麼一大段繞那麼一大段然後每年發生的事故都那麼多一部分走那麼大段駕駛會疲勞另外一個部分道路條件不是那麼好那我們有沒有可能考慮讓那些優良的駕駛我們可以說3年內5年內你沒有發生過"},{"start":7567.444,"end":7574.67,"text":"我們可以訂定一些違規的項目你只要符合這些違規項目我可以試著讓你在離峰的時間去走國五這樣的一個方案我覺得有時候我們也可以試著在其他我這個只是舉一個例子而已我們在針對大客車的駕駛管制方面有時候或許是可以用一些獎勵的措施鼓勵他們平常就要守法那你平常只要守法不違規那我可能"},{"start":7596.266,"end":7604.709,"text":"我可以相信你這個架勢是可以去做我們平常去限制的一些事情好不好 那以上部長謝謝 明天考慮一下 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 現在為我們麻煩盧明哲召委"},{"start":7622.947,"end":7628.314,"text":"好的,謝謝主席,有請我們交通部陳部長、公路局陳局長"},{"start":7634.52,"end":7657.156,"text":"好 這個部長跟局長其實今天我要談的一個議題因為其實我上次有講過這個外送平台那今天主要的一個焦點在我們大車 大車系列因為不光是我們市區的公車、遊覽車甚至公路客運、國道客運等等的我想先講載人的載人這些大型的客運"},{"start":7658.197,"end":7674.579,"text":"那我現在剛剛在想真的像時代的眼淚喔因為我在將近二十幾歲的二十五六歲的時候開過計程車所以我本身也是業者我開過計程車開了兩三年那那時候我有一個夢你知道嗎是什麼夢因為我看到有一些我的前輩他買一台遊覽車"},{"start":7676.061,"end":7699.44,"text":"你知道新興的遊覽車他個人的然後每天出去我就覺得有一度那是我人生重要的目標真的哇一台大的遊覽車多驕傲那隨著這個不管是車種的變更、駕照的難易度從小車、大車、載貨、載人就覺得我要有一天達到這樣的一個能力"},{"start":7700.601,"end":7728.856,"text":"可是曾幾何時現在看起來真的大車大不易已經產生時代結構性的變化真是沒辦法剛剛很多委員適當已經說過了大概情況就是這樣我自己再把它像疫情在前兩三年的數字去撈一撈其實確實在過去一個平穩的以公務客運來說它的搭乘的人次一年度有一千多萬人次"},{"start":7729.816,"end":7745.081,"text":"結果到了113年目前的統計大概減少了非常多報章雜誌也有出來你的專案報告也有寫班次就減少了很多事實上這互為因果互為因果"},{"start":7746.101,"end":7763.848,"text":"那車輛數、路線數都變化很大其實你知道我在擔心什麼這時代的眼淚就這樣嗎會不會要到一種結構性變化要到什麼地步你知道嗎 因為它的功能在很多我們的軌道型的交通到不了"},{"start":7764.668,"end":7779.594,"text":"或者我們政府補助的一些公車它到不了的它很多就是偏鄉它有這樣的一個需求過去能夠撐得住現在撐不住了所以很多人回家路如果再持續減少真的會出問題啊那我也自己也想過啦"},{"start":7781.24,"end":7802.661,"text":"我們旅客坐公共客運的人越來越少當然有幾個原因第一個我們班次就少了我們路線數就少了對不對 我就是要坐新竹這一班你沒有了我不可能去坐台北的那就自然因為隨著我的班次少了車輛少了這個是一定就跟著減少的第二個呢"},{"start":7803.658,"end":7818.876,"text":"是因為交通很多各線軌道出來了很多的方便的不管是高鐵、台鐵、約會票、T-pass很多原因都會吸引客戶可能去採用其他原本他沒有的方式"},{"start":7819.617,"end":7847.05,"text":"第三個呢因為公路客運他比較會堵車交通狀況難料有時候不是你技術好別人技術不好交通情況不好你都沒有辦法準點到達所以現在手時準時尤其上下班這也是很多人要改搭更準點的交通工序的疑慮最後一個就牽涉到他本身的服務品質如果幾次不好上公路客運被服務的經驗自然會流失"},{"start":7848.05,"end":7866.475,"text":"如果只是旅客流失的話因為在這個產業有三類人第一個是旅客第二個是駕駛員這個產業才會動但最重要誰買車業者其實我們覺得我們最不希望看到的三件事快要全部發生了旅客不見了"},{"start":7871.589,"end":7889.29,"text":"駕駛不見了駕駛也不見了其實駕駛不見了剛剛好幾位委員特別有說其中一個重點說能不能提高他的一個福利啊薪資啊讓一些誘因增加誘因讓他們回來包括勞動部啊也希望能夠改善他們的一個環境啊"},{"start":7890.612,"end":7900.124,"text":"可是除了這個之外我聽到了很多很多的大車的駕駛其實他更擔心的是風險"},{"start":7902.287,"end":7929.181,"text":"他更承擔了很大很大的壓力我覺得過去網路沒有這麼強的時代你知道嗎發生一件事就一群人知道現在發生一件事情就全世界知道了所以他們壓力是非常非常大而且是車內車外的壓力車外要看清楚絕對不能發生什麼事車內有這麼多的客戶一上來大車坐了三四十個人所以我想部長"},{"start":7930.595,"end":7935.2,"text":"你對於這整個大車這個產業李鎂不見了駕駛不見了你有什麼樣的看法他的停損點或你覺得說你們在努力讓這個事情不要再持續惡化你們的想法是什麼"},{"start":7947.878,"end":7975.085,"text":"我想對交通部的立場來講客運的維持是必然必須要的所以我們現在有很多的政策包含幸福巴士希望能夠有偏鄉的這些服務都是透過客運的方式因為我們很清楚知道軌道很便利、很安全、很可靠但不可能到每一個地方所以客運的維持相當重要我們最近看到這些年來的客運的發展確實也相當優新所以我看交通部現在有用很大量的補貼跟補助的方案"},{"start":7975.765,"end":8003.132,"text":"不管是在運費上面或者是在勞動的這個條件上面就是勞工的部分我們盡量在努力因為委員剛剛講的那三項一直在減少我們最怕業者也減少這個部分我們很不希望發生所以這個部分交通部應該也會再繼續加大力道來協助業者讓他能夠繼續營運下去因為這個對所有的民眾尤其是相對偏鄉的地方行的交通的這個便利性很重要"},{"start":8004.175,"end":8025.787,"text":"好 大概十幾天前在客運業者有說這個缺工20%其實補大概剛好跟離職的人數就勉勉強強大概就維持在那個檔次他都跑到Uber根本徵不到人其實他說對一半啦也不見得是Uber啦很多的產業都有可能是相對低壓的產業我們再看看"},{"start":8026.857,"end":8056.277,"text":"我們整個運輸啊我們挑了幾類主要大家比較熟、知道的行業別從最簡單的自己騎機車自己開的小貨車如果發生了任何的有壓力的事件就是我一個人單純一點所以從外送、快遞他們就你看快遞業他可能生有貨車他也呈現減少的部分接下來汽車的一個貨運可能比較大的車風險似乎大那計程車尤其到公務客運啊他減少的一個比率啊"},{"start":8057.077,"end":8058.919,"text":"李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範"},{"start":8078.374,"end":8099.059,"text":"多少因為也沒有路線好跑了沒有路線好跑了我們剛剛大概這5年來就我的體驗在桃園本來有很多的學生專車、大車那之前他們很願意坐現在從最多的112線的在學生找上的班車現在剩81減少好像28%跟你們那個車數減幅其實是蠻類似的"},{"start":8105.578,"end":8125.871,"text":"我今天要說了今天對業者我是建議我們很多的一個管制為了他更安全這完全合理的沒什麼好說但是有些不必要的一個壓力或者莫名其妙增加工作的你還嫌他活得很好嗎"},{"start":8127.689,"end":8155.948,"text":"我們講說我們的駕駛要加薪但是我們要一個稍微有利潤的他的業者才有可能完成這件事現在目前這個情況幾乎八成都政府在做你跟叫業者加薪他幾乎說sorry所以就是地方政府配合公務總局你們交通部在扛這一塊但是能夠扛多久呢我講這個的部分業者現在經營的四大困難第一個缺駕駛他真的很痛苦第二個呢"},{"start":8157.691,"end":8173.024,"text":"已經很多的至少中型的以下的基本上沒有利潤如果扣掉政府的補助他早就收收回去了第三個我們比較擔心的法規對安全的部分沒有問題但是有些額外的"},{"start":8174.245,"end":8193.321,"text":"法規的一個衝擊就是我已經這麼難做了你還要我做完功課那我就回家我不幹了包括了你現在的遊覽車的評鑑制度另外一類大車遊覽車的評鑑制度到底合不合你們從評鑑制度你們去看你們現在分類"},{"start":8194.947,"end":8223.441,"text":"優等、佳等、宜等、不劣等聽起來是不入流的感覺因為前面你看那個加數加起來將近900家那有29家不劣等你這個每次公告我都看到公民眾選遊覽車就是考量嘛這個用意是很和善的你知道嗎民眾還沒參觀到保險公司先拿去參觀了"},{"start":8225.267,"end":8240.887,"text":"保險公司先拿去所有不列等的現在狀況是什麼我相信他們工會都跟你說啦你憑這個本來是良法美義的保險公司說不保了第三責任險或者其他額外的險不保了"},{"start":8242.472,"end":8268.56,"text":"可是這個問題很怪耶因為你們現在評的甲等乙等不是一台車耶就是你不列等的一家公司裡面會不會有優等的駕駛會不會有10年開遊覽車不出事的可是我告訴你他也沒辦法保所以我是覺得第一個你們現在遊覽車的評定制度如果這個兩罰美意我可以接受你把美意留下來"},{"start":8269.6,"end":8295.006,"text":"但是造成了負面的效果說你們結果為什麼你們今年就說要停一年等一下因為感覺怪怪的停一年那你停一年不是休息一年明年再炒是要想方設法你們現在想說好吧要把不列等我不知道誰提出來這麼聰明有才智這個人可以用不列等未來改成平等就沒事了"},{"start":8295.902,"end":8321.791,"text":"我的天啊那保險公司不會看啦優等、佳等、宜等那我就找平等啦所以我倒是覺得如果你平健制度是一個淘汰制度這業者說啊因為有些業者真的他就是品質非常差完全不安全你就抓一趴出來抓一家、兩家出來你這平健制度他慢慢不改善他可以淘汰你這樣子真的保障"},{"start":8322.811,"end":8323.111,"text":"負責負責負責"},{"start":8343.343,"end":8366.434,"text":"內部討論優等、佳等、宜等、不入等、不列等通出來不是第一波磨啊磨啊報告寫啦有些公司叫公司小姐寫有些比較正做的公司想要拼業績的委外花個十萬、二十萬拜託別人然後去做做完第一關叫安全紀錄"},{"start":8367.654,"end":8387.395,"text":"第一關安全記錄好恭喜得到夾等了再發函給你恭喜你已經入夾等但是你要繼續申請管理部分的科技管理再提一份報告出來你要這個通過之後你如果不申請你就列一等我的天啊我弄了半天"},{"start":8388.456,"end":8415.575,"text":"我一家公司要到優等的要到優等的要經過兩次的一個評鑑經過你們專家學者我是建議不要這樣搞啦真的不要這樣搞如果你們這麼難判別的話我覺得是你們這個專家學者有問題所以我要拜託各位我做個結論因為業者很多的部分他的壓力真的非常非常大"},{"start":8416.636,"end":8424.584,"text":"找不到時機也沒利潤法規沒有必要的給他衝擊你知道嗎駕駛出去沒有打又實際例子"},{"start":8428.101,"end":8448.613,"text":"右轉沒有打方向燈然後呢 被祭奠 開罰單你知道嗎 這幾天公務組就派人去公司稽查 稽查兩台遊覽車然後呢 駕駛已經不在這家公司了你們那個制度 你聽懂我意思嗎 方向燈是誰打的"},{"start":8449.784,"end":8465.02,"text":"是駕駛吧是駕駛的責任嘛所以你們現在造成這個業者是不是你們真的要去檢討一下你們要管好但是像這樣的增加負擔的這個部分造成有一些你要讓他沒保險"},{"start":8466.241,"end":8492.284,"text":"在路上跑你乾脆叫他退場好了啦你們這種制度我是覺得部長是我是覺得這個評鑑制度要優化好不好這一定要優化那再來就是您在說那個不能保險的部分我們也已經在幫業者解決我們有去跟金管會跟保險局他們去溝通這個部分要協助業者這一定要做的好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝魯明哲、趙偉、謝謝部長那就休息10分鐘"},{"start":8511.865,"end":8513.646,"text":"喂喂夠不夠可以喔喂喂有喔可以喔"},{"start":8670.567,"end":8670.728,"text":"所以車輛數"},{"start":9090.117,"end":9106.931,"text":"好 謝謝 我們繼續開會接下來有請徐富奎委員發言謝主席 我們有請陳部長還有公務局陳局長陳文瑞局長"},{"start":9118.058,"end":9138.954,"text":"部長、局長早我想本席也有很多這個在從事這個長途運輸的一個朋友啦業者的朋友啦那當然從最近這幾年這個整個大環境的這個影響他們其實也是叫苦連天啦不敢哀啦因為他們不是只有考慮他們自己的生計還有養了他們的這個生活啦"},{"start":9142.777,"end":9170.183,"text":"那當然目前大概我們現在聽起來他們面對的很多的問題包含不只是缺工然後還有長途運輸這個所謂一個勞基法的一個規定的問題甚至這個我們司機違規祭典在靠這個車的車是他們的財產他們也是滿腹的委屈甚至這個萬物皆漲他們運費不敢漲為什麼因為怕其他競爭者的銷價競爭之後沒有生意可以做"},{"start":9170.723,"end":9184.309,"text":"所以其實他們一直很想要找一個時間跟我們相關的單位來做一個對話也聽聽他們的滿腹的委屈還有一些政策面的一個檢討那我想部長跟局長這部分是不是有沒有機會能夠讓他們能夠來做一個對話的一個機會"},{"start":9188.412,"end":9211.958,"text":"這個可以啦 我們跟業者之間的這個溝通跟互動我想公路局應該時常在做對 沒有問題 更限的這個運輸工會包括貨運、客運的話其實我們各地區的監理所站都有定期跟他們有做相關的溝通如果說有特別的需要 如果說譬如說要包括他們的全聯會跟公路局來做相關的一個建議的話我想我們都會非常歡迎"},{"start":9212.612,"end":9226.319,"text":"我想當然交通部是站在一個這個整個交通這個安全的一個整體的考量那當然我們許多不一樣的團體都有各自的一個陳情跟一個訴求那也希望我們有機會可以跟大貨車這個運輸公會來做一個對話這個沒問題"},{"start":9228.7,"end":9257.532,"text":"那有幾個問題要就交一下請我們部長跟局長來幫忙那今年7月份我召開一個會刊針對我們墾丁國家公園南灣的一個人行步道這個人行步道已經鋪了20幾年不只現在坑坑洞洞而且它因為缺乏一個排水溝的一個設施只要下雨就會積水那我想南灣是一個國際的觀光景點這問民不可看啦那請教一下部長跟局長"},{"start":9258.392,"end":9284.699,"text":"這部分自從我會刊之後目前有沒有最近的進度什麼時候可以來施工還是我跟委員報告委員會刊之後的話第一個就是說在經費上面沒有問題因為經費上面就是說我們行政院已經有核定一個永續提升人行安全的計畫所以我們經費沒有問題那人行道的設施的施作也沒有問題只是說因為當地南灣是屬於這個墾丁國家公園管理處"},{"start":9285.419,"end":9306.15,"text":"他在9月的時候其實9月23號其實整個他有提到就是說整個周邊南灣的他的公共設施他有做一些檢討那所以就是說我們在會確認就是說肯定國家公民管理處就是說對於這邊屬於我們人行步道他還有沒有其他建議啦如果說他沒有說特別需要我們在協助的部分我們就"},{"start":9306.63,"end":9331.761,"text":"我知道這部分我想請部長幫忙因為就是因為我們發現到這必須要跨部會整合這個整個包含這個墾丁國家公園一些公共設施的問題包含墾丁大街未來要人車分道這些問題都必須要跨部會整合所以我有要求我們的內政部在9月份開了這個會議那具體的一些結論大概都有已經有一些共識那所以未來也希望"},{"start":9332.441,"end":9348.412,"text":"肯定不是只有這個洋傘之亂啊不是也只有一些被這個消費污名化那我覺得公路總局公路局還有我們交通部公共署我們都責無旁貸一起來重新振興我們恆春半島的觀光這點也麻煩部長跟局長我們加快腳步"},{"start":9350.213,"end":9372.855,"text":"對那第二個就是針對猴想每次風災我們就發現一個狀況像這次山坨颱風我們整個省道系統都不是秦島要不然就是支離破碎那當然我知道我們公路局在這個樹種的規劃上面當然有一些的選擇但是我們發現可能這些未來針對所謂的一個"},{"start":9374.436,"end":9389.522,"text":"數學的一個工法還有一個深耕的部分這個樹種的選擇是不是有必要重新檢討過要不然每逢颱風這個樹一倒就影響到整個交通的動線也造成這個壓到車子非常非常危險這部分是不是可以請公眾總局來做一個檢討"},{"start":9390.822,"end":9416.613,"text":"好 報告委員 這個部分我們會來做檢討不過我們這個部分大部分是配合農業部也跟農業部來請教說要種哪一些原生樹種 這是第一個第二個種植的方案 種植的方法怎麼樣才要生根 不生根的話我們這個部分其實都是結合農業部一起在討論不過每次颱風我們就可以檢討一次有哪些路數是容易倒塌的那這個部分我們就來檢討說未來可能就不要用這樣的路數"},{"start":9417.153,"end":9446.513,"text":"因為我們管轄的路段相當的長有時候也造成我們這個開口企業如果沒有馬上去處理確實會造成很多的危險性這部分再麻煩我們部長跟局長的協助那另外針對我們屏東台17線林邊路段有一個鎮安村這個地方我也有去會勘過那因為這部分上下游的整治的部分牽扯到我們所謂的農水署也好還有包含大盤灣管理處這部分我們都已經協調完成但唯一的部分就是"},{"start":9447.213,"end":9473.322,"text":"台17線的下面這個寒凍口徑太小了而且你上面宣洩不及到台17線很容易就造成一個淹水的一個情形這部分是不是請局長這邊可以要求馬上來趕快做處理是 跟委員報告確實就是說因為整個的區域的排水它包括台17的上下游就像委員剛剛所提到的還有涉及到龍水署跟大鵬灣國家那個管理處"},{"start":9474.102,"end":9498.253,"text":"那所以就是說上下游的處理跟配合我們這邊的一個航管的一個擴大它的一個排水量那屬於我們台17線的部分我們會來處理對 另外還有針對我們臨邊交通道下來接到我們台17線系統的時候那邊也有一段地窪的地段也造成容易積水車沒路過啦這部分是請公務局來一併來趕快來做一個排水系統的一個檢討"},{"start":9499.933,"end":9525.086,"text":"沒問題那這個部分我們再找時間趕快來會看一下那另外我想這邊我們也要肯定我們公路局我們在台26線就是我們墾丁、香江灣路段我們打造了一個全國第一個路線的一個廊道那也被譽為一個很有善的一個生態有溫度的一個幸福公園那甚至也是我們這個進入講這個景觀的一個這個大熱門的一個路段"},{"start":9525.706,"end":9541.827,"text":"那除了這個路段之外我們在車程龜山到福安橋這邊也有我們的一些我們的生態團體也有建議可以來做一個生態廊道那麼也是一個很豐富的一個生態資源這部分是不是可以請公務局來協助一下我們一起來努力"},{"start":9543.457,"end":9565.611,"text":"是,各位委員報告就是我們目前屬於自己省道台246的部分我們已經做了,把它抬高那委員所提到的這一個路段是屬於平152線是屬於這個鄉道啦那所以就是說這個公路系統在縣府這邊主管的話其實它有相關的這些的考量的話其實我們會用相關的一個計劃經費來協助他們"},{"start":9567.532,"end":9589.936,"text":"我想因為我們有台26線很好的一個經驗尤其我們整個就是每逢這個尤其暑假期間我們還有志工在那邊互卸管制這真的做得非常非常的好啦那我想未來也希望這個針對路線的安全給予一個最好的一個安全回家的一個路那我想剛剛我們很多的委員也提到所謂的一個外送的一個"},{"start":9599.419,"end":9616.926,"text":"目前是這樣啦之前是因為聯繫要開會的這個過程當中沒有聯繫好所以造成他們一些誤解那我們陳局長也特別去拜會過消基會的董事長那他們對這方面聽完我們的這個希望能夠透明化的原因之後其實他態度上也是相當贊成"},{"start":9618.226,"end":9629.4,"text":"那或許下禮拜三我們會有一個座談會我們已經約好了那消基會也會來參與那外送員的工會也會來參與業者也會來參與我們各方一起來做一個好好的協商跟討論"},{"start":9631.327,"end":9655.768,"text":"我想這個事情也是知識體大了是因為包含我們的政府也好我們的外送的一個業者還有我們的店家、外送員甚至消費者我們如果創造這個五贏的局面我想交通部也要責務旁貸了沒錯尤其這個在不管在每一個環節裡面怎麼樣去檢討這個可能出現的問題怎麼樣去務實地解決問題我想部長請部長這邊是我們先不要做"},{"start":9658.37,"end":9659.471,"text":"謝謝許委員接下來有請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":9685.578,"end":9688.402,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳部長、勞動部陳次長"},{"start":9699.924,"end":9708.728,"text":"部長我們看到客運駕駛缺口的問題持續擴大根據公路局統計12年2月缺額1819人到113年5月已經擴大到2215人這個缺額的問題主要集中在市區客運像是市區客運的缺額112年2月是921人"},{"start":9719.873,"end":9736.028,"text":"它的缺額暴增到113年5月的1443人增加了將近56.68%這也顯示出駕駛能力的缺口有不斷惡化的趨勢本期要以桃園為例桃園客運是主要的大眾運輸工具目前的駕駛缺額已經高達208人了"},{"start":9737.909,"end":9748.472,"text":"僅次於臺北的大都會客運228人駕駛不足直接影響到公車班次,讓不少班次被迫取消桃園捷運還在興建中相較之下,臺北的捷運入網相對完整,讓桃園市民困擾駕駛缺工問題,就教部長及常務次長"},{"start":9759.015,"end":9773.281,"text":"客運業者認為駕駛缺的問題主要是三個原因第一個是日少子化再來是大環境對於客運駕駛不友善也造成客運駕駛給他們帶來很大的身心壓力社會的普遍認知都覺得"},{"start":9774.501,"end":9793.505,"text":"開公車、開客運這份工作很辛苦啊那導致這個行業它的吸引力不足部長想請教您這個是不是主要的原因我想這些都是蠻重要的原因啦那另外就是說對於這個勞動條件跟這個工作環境的部分對駕駛員來說當然也是相當的重要"},{"start":9794.581,"end":9811.138,"text":"本席認為如果駕駛區域持續下去會導致班次減少班次減少又會降低民眾的搭乘意願民眾不去搭乘的話又會造成公司的虧損進而再減班會導致會形成一個沒有班次沒有乘客的惡性循環部長、次長您認同嗎"},{"start":9814.201,"end":9825.092,"text":"我蠻認同的啦我也很擔心他走入一個惡性循環的狀態是 那次長這邊就叫次長那個勞動部是我國的勞工就主事我國勞工相關問題面對這樣的問題勞動部有解決的方案嗎"},{"start":9827.748,"end":9855.391,"text":"是跟委員報告就是客運業缺工當然早上歷來在討論就是說是一個長期的趨勢那因為疫情受到很大影響那他有什麼方案我們目前大概幾個做法第一個我們跟交通部一起對於國內人員的價值的培訓也在持續進行當中那他們有相關的專案的方案那第二個部分確實國內的人口結構變化也真的少了人"},{"start":9855.851,"end":9884.032,"text":"所以我們考量的結果在中階技術人力會開放到科運業那這部分這些中階技術尤其是橋外生他本來就在本地念書市長請問一年有多少橋外生一年大概未來的整個的狀況大概一年會有1.2萬的橋外生但現在目前會很多橋外生畢業之後是回國那所以我們會希望他繼續留在臺灣本地是部長您認為橋外生能夠解決司機缺額的問題嗎"},{"start":9885.333,"end":9913.076,"text":"目前是還沒有開始使用目前還是在勞動部法制化的過程我們希望能夠補齊我們目前提的上限是554人如果可以補齊的話對我們來說當然是一部分的缺額可以補得上來不過我們還是有其他的缺額所以其實我們還在努力當然我們本國的勞工要優先優先來徵求另外對於移工的部分我們也會拜託勞動部是不是可以再放寬更寬一些"},{"start":9913.775,"end":9935.049,"text":"是 我們就橋外生投入大客車的駕駛市場我們來分三個層次來看112年來說 我們全國一共補助632人那為新竹建立所才20人解決桃竹苗的駕駛問題成效不彰那再來是我們要如何吸引橋外生投入客運駕駛市場那橋外生他的能力培訓可以足以通過考試跟勝任這份工作嗎"},{"start":9936.069,"end":9961.631,"text":"有關於僑外生當然因為我們的駕駛必須要職業證照所以我們還是會將來僑外生有意願從這個我們還是跟交通部會進行培訓的工作考取相關證照才會出來但是這部分還是要跟委員報告僑外生中階技術人力他只是其中的一個補充的方式他不是完全的解方所以我們基本上未來再如何讓我們的"},{"start":9962.632,"end":9979.403,"text":"大客車駕駛的薪資勞動條件能夠提升讓他可以持續留在這個職場才是重點否則有人進來我們接下來是不是要考量到他們留下來的意願因為他們不只可以投入到駕駛客運的這個市場他們也可以選擇其他工作"},{"start":9982.563,"end":10001.616,"text":"因為其實跟我們報告本地的勞工也是同樣的問題就是剛才講就有些可能會跑去開Uber或走到其他他可能工作彈性或薪資比較高或調整那我們針對喬愛森他們的收訊管理還有保險那這方面有完整的配套措施嗎這部分我們到我們現在在那個喬愛森"},{"start":10003.817,"end":10023.362,"text":"開放他從事客運業之後我們今年年底會把勞動部這邊相關的法制修整完畢修整完畢之後我們就會配套的跟消動部去合作讓他考照然後相應的配套讓他的部分可以進來到我們的那個客運業OK 請再提供本席書面資料次長您可以先請回謝謝委員"},{"start":10025.285,"end":10044.939,"text":"那再來我們看到部長我們看到勞動部的統計外送成員人員從108年的4.5萬人增加到113年7月的14.7萬人這個增幅高達三倍之多那這使得機車臨時停車的需求大幅上升在都會區停車位本來就很稀缺了那有外送人員他們因為為了要快速送餐"},{"start":10045.559,"end":10061.233,"text":"那他們會把他們的車停放在紅線上這也導致了紅線的比例增加那成為交通亂象之一況且他們常被罰這也讓他們感到非常辛苦和無奈對這個問題交通部有沒有什麼解決方案來改送外送員停車的問題"},{"start":10062.654,"end":10088.672,"text":"是當然停車的部分它主要俠管是在地方政府不過我們還是會盡量去跟他們溝通跟協調尤其針對這些營業的摩托車有沒有一些停放處可以制定例如說比較接近夜市或者是比較外送店家比較集中的區域有沒有可能去設置這樣的設置部長您提到地方政府我們來看到像例如台北、新北、台中都有他們都有設立外送"},{"start":10089.372,"end":10106.586,"text":"的林庭區那中央目前還沒有針對外送林區制定相關的法規那各級單位只能各自為政那各自應對那交通部作為全國的交通法規和政策的主要機關應該將機車林庭區納入法規體系並制定相關的規範這邊交通部有在請師長"},{"start":10108.527,"end":10130.602,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下因為發射007的部分最主要目前是透過標線的方式來做發射那以現行這一個標線的發射的話包括汽車、包括汽車、包括專用停車格位等等的部分原則上都可以來做營用那最主要的部分就是說地方政府怎麼來做規劃那譬如說像現行台北市他用這一個各類營業車輛共用這一個營業車輛"},{"start":10133.584,"end":10134.405,"text":"設立於108年11月至今都已經超過4年"},{"start":10150.214,"end":10176.48,"text":"外送的一個行業部分也是在各縣市慢慢做發展那其他有需求的這一個縣市的部分的話我們來向其他設比較早的那個部分提供這個經驗給其他縣市本席建議希望交通部可以盡快收集各級的機關設立機車林停區的相關資料並納入法規那交通部接下來這邊會再去收集嗎會接下來會收集一些資料然後朝這個方向"},{"start":10177.1,"end":10203.931,"text":"那在今年年初媒體有報導為了讓臺北車站周邊的交通更加順暢因此周邊有很多地方都設紅線禁止停車這使得外送員他們擔心被開罰然後進而不願意接臺北車站周邊的訂單那本席認為這種情況不僅發生在臺北車站而桃園高鐵站也有面臨類似的問題不然我們的盧昭偉也不會建議高鐵桃園站也要設外送臨停區那這邊建議部長是"},{"start":10205.812,"end":10224.766,"text":"要求台鐵和高鐵針對全國各級車站進行盤點這邊交通部能做到嗎如果有這方面的需求的車站周圍我們都朝這個方向來努力OK 那就希望部長可以再協助解決外送員他們臨庭的問題希望交通部可以努力來推動好 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱委員接下來有請陳雪真委員發言"},{"start":10239.393,"end":10261.474,"text":"好,謝謝昭偉是不是請交通部陳部長還有公路總局陳部長陳國內局長部長早委員早謝謝您昨天果斷而且英明的決定請我們何局長很努力的去處理這個事情是是,他們會努力來處理航班的問題"},{"start":10262.379,"end":10287.173,"text":"部長我今天跟你談馬祖大橋因為你上任以來我還沒跟你詳細的談賴總統在行政院長任內核定了馬祖大橋可行性的評估而且也進入了綜合計畫那麼他也曾經前往縣子去會刊"},{"start":10288.499,"end":10305.167,"text":"曾經全網限職會刊他要先講,他只要可行的話錢不是問題那麼叫前幾任的行政院長對馬祖大俠的作為可以說相對的務實前幾天我也碰到周院長,我說馬祖大俠什麼時候決定?"},{"start":10306.547,"end":10315.754,"text":"他說你總預算不要卡關,你協助我們,我們就讓你過關總預算要過才有辦法建設的地方是事實我也很樂意去協助,希望總預算趕快去來審查賴總統在113年雙十國慶以團結台灣、共研夢想為題發表演說,強調"},{"start":10332.657,"end":10355.399,"text":"更要加強離島地區的基礎建設提升生活品質和觀光的量能由此可見賴總統對離島的務實了解就我們離島馬祖而言40餘年以來大概只有槍炮聲只有槍炮聲沒有基礎建設的機械聲可以顯示出我們建設的一個落後"},{"start":10357.422,"end":10379.78,"text":"山上原來種了一些高粱、地瓜現在也沒有了出海現在以前有很多的黃魚曾經是黃魚的故鄉現在魚也找不到了那島地交通趁風破浪而且夜間不相往來到晚上沒辦法開船空中交通的效率其差無比那麼來去"},{"start":10382.088,"end":10407.104,"text":"身不由己需要碰運氣來不易回更難且常被關倒像昨天側風很大飛機無法降落還有會主委到那邊去還跑到北幹去坐飛機回來所以馬祖有他說真的需要大家的幫忙我們馬祖大概是有36個島嶼組成的而且"},{"start":10411.533,"end":10430.631,"text":"我們島與島之間秀麗的景色美不勝收但美中不足的就是沒有橋樑的連接致使人民的生活品質大受影響現在金門有金門大橋澎湖有澎湖大橋我聽楊耀偉講還要再做一座大橋"},{"start":10434.603,"end":10458.802,"text":"馬祖根據舉世無雙的馬祖肉身的靈血擁有獨特的聖地光光亮能但是因為缺乏南北竿島際交通的基礎建設縱然南北竿有兩座不合格的小機場死債客量有限也沒有辦法發揮光光亮能"},{"start":10460.322,"end":10475.563,"text":"我在總之群曾經提到我們目前國產署我們的軍備局佔領了馬祖85%的土地我想那個部長也在場我跟卓院長報告我說如果你是連江縣的縣長"},{"start":10476.994,"end":10495.364,"text":"你對馬祖這樣的一個觀光那麼漂亮的一個島嶼你怎麼樣去發揮所長怎麼樣能夠讓它變得更美所以南甘島跟北甘島的連結這是非常重要的因為南甘那邊已經沒有腹地可以蓋了北甘那邊還可以蓋一些觀光旅館"},{"start":10497.389,"end":10513.044,"text":"所以馬祖需要賴總統在雙十國際演說的務實的主張而且更要加強南北港跨海大橋也就是馬祖大橋的基礎建設那麼該大橋的綜合計畫已經完成而且由交通部已經呈報到行政院去核定"},{"start":10513.991,"end":10537.884,"text":"那麼大家都知道金門大橋是國民黨籍馬英俊總統的時候合訂的嘛合訂的也蓋好了我們也希望馬祖大橋由民進黨籍的賴總統能夠執政的時候能夠合訂興建況且早已經合訂了綜合計畫我們期盼賴總統和馬祖人民一同貢源馬祖大橋的夢"},{"start":10545.406,"end":10560.704,"text":"來實現這樣的一個生活品質跟光光亮人那麼我現在簡單的就我們大喬的一個時程107年的時候,那時候賴總統同意同意他辦理綜合計畫110年4月23日"},{"start":10563.949,"end":10588.59,"text":"南北竿大橋綜合規劃的其中報告也完成了110年8月綜合計畫報交通部三次抱怨那麼互踢皮球各打太極拳111年行政院秘書長再檢討本案的公法、經費及計畫效益的修正然後再報行政院113年"},{"start":10591.085,"end":10603.714,"text":"委託辦理案英國國發會拜託英國、英商、奧維納、工程顧問有限公司、台北分公司來繼續辦理完成結案的報告繼續來探討113年5月6日綜合規劃路線長約3.1公里經費288億施工期程大概8年"},{"start":10621.431,"end":10637.09,"text":"部長是總統賴清德他曾經講攸關馬祖未來百年發展的大紀的橋是馬祖人民應該要得到的大橋案在自己的手中推動一定要全力促成"},{"start":10638.223,"end":10661.006,"text":"我在這邊強調的是台灣我昨天也講過蓋了那麼多的高鐵捷運幾百億幾兆我們金門馬祖人民在砲火中成長在戰雲中茁壯我希望就是說部長您上來因為為什麼?這個案子很像在上頭一直在打轉"},{"start":10662.247,"end":10673.376,"text":"一直在打轉我本來以為說107年賴院長批了以後大概108年中和規劃出來108年、109年中和規劃出來以後可以進入建設計畫所以我前幾天拜託卓院長重視這樣的一個問題因為你不可能無止盡在打轉你從蔡英文總統、蘇貞昌院長"},{"start":10692.753,"end":10710.144,"text":"賴清德時任院長,到現在都已經過為總統了他們都答應我,說錢不是問題,技術你找營商600萬的工程去得標,但是回答的卻是找世西工程公司世西說沒有問題,這個大橋當然是很艱鉅的"},{"start":10715.697,"end":10741.223,"text":"你看大陸從平潭到福州的公帖大橋我親自到現場去看過它水深比馬祖的水域還深它的艱難度比馬祖的還更困難它已經完成了很多完成的例子在那邊所以所謂用技術性的問題在那邊推、拖、拉不是辦法我希望院長你能不能回答我,您的態度怎麼樣?"},{"start":10742.661,"end":10767.819,"text":"報告委員當然這個計畫已經走了一長段的時間那過去賴總統也表達過他支持這個案子那現在交通部的部分應該已經也都送到行政院現在就在等國科會、國發會那邊正在審議那委員我知道您希望能夠趕快促成這件事情銀商的報告回來沒有?還沒為什麼?他標案到10月底啊"},{"start":10769.878,"end":10798.424,"text":"但是這個部分是國發會他們主辦,那我們會委員您今天在這裡交代,我就來去問國發會問說可不可以加速一下,或者是去問一下英商英商的報告也是從世紀裡面抄來的,也是抄本浪費了這六百萬,我在這邊老實的講六百萬只夠英商的人事費,英國人的薪水是很高的,他待遇是非常高的他跑去問世紀幹什麼?問世紀的水文資料、水深資料,你去問這幹什麼?"},{"start":10799.895,"end":10814.814,"text":"你能夠有能力,六百萬有能力去鑽探嗎?不可能嘛所以一定是世襲提供的資料所以要查證如果是不可行的話,那就是你們告訴他,弄個不可行的報告出來一定是這樣子的我堅信啊"},{"start":10815.785,"end":10830.906,"text":"我們的四溪市應該是全國最優秀的一個工程公司金門大橋都可以蓋了起來馬祖大橋只有3公里,金門6點多公里有什麼問題?所以公路總局在這一段也沉寂了一段時間"},{"start":10832.128,"end":10855.286,"text":"我也沒有去逼陳局長,我知道問題是在上頭所以部長你能不能跟卓院長碰到賴總統跟他報告一下希望能夠圓我們馬祖人民的一個夢這個大橋是我們馬祖最重要的基礎建設因為兩個座大橋連結起來以後機場才有可能廢掉一座兩座大橋沒有連結起來"},{"start":10856.789,"end":10879.396,"text":"我們的機場不可能廢掉一座而且現在的機場說真的顯相還生像昨天你看看側風降落是很危險的GO AROUND一次、兩次那一種降落是非常危險的不要說出了事情我們再來後悔都來不及部長您承諾我好不好我跟院長、行政院這邊來反映這件事"},{"start":10882.284,"end":10911.27,"text":"你能不能跟我講一下,不要像前幾任一直在那邊打太極拳、推脫拉、在那邊踢啤酒行就行,不行就不行嘛,什麼原因嘛交通部的程序已經也走完,那也表示說交通部我沒有怪你們,交通部非常的幫忙那委員在交代的國發會的進度我們來了解,並且希望他們能夠趕快但是這個案子不能一拖再拖、一拖再拖啊是不是也有人告訴我說,你是交通委員會的召委"},{"start":10912.95,"end":10942.122,"text":"你就把交通部的預算給他砍掉嘛砍掉個三百億、五百億你看他給不給你我們總統也跟我講我們拿到優惠去表決嘛對不對我們做成主決議嘛我都沒有啊我有責備過你們嗎我有責難過你們嗎我從來沒有我從來沒有是不是我們越南也講了你預算的東西不要去增加嘛你循著他的程序來走嘛那我已經按照規矩"},{"start":10944.468,"end":10964.698,"text":"我也沒跟你鬧啊,我按照規矩、規矩矩矩的按照程序在走啦很像是壞了小孩子才有糖吃,乖了小孩子沒糖吃,很像是這樣子我現在的感想越來越像,是不是?我想部長你也不希望我在交通委員會裡面來審你們的預算、砍你們的預算,我來鬧"},{"start":10965.748,"end":10992.517,"text":"沒有意義嘛是不是你們總是要釋出一點善意你不能欺負好人啦是不是交通部給努力的部分交通部來努力我也幫你們交通部你看也努力了很久我想交通部的同仁也好對陳雪生委員應該都是給我大拇指的是不是當然我也謝謝你們給了我們馬祖很多的建設啦但是那是不夠的因為我們真的我們一生出來就是個畸形兒"},{"start":10993.997,"end":11018.81,"text":"我們飽受戰火的摧殘,到現在為止你看金門的建設,我們要落後金門的建設起碼30年是不是?我拜託部長,你昨天已經展現魄力了,我希望你今天再一次展現你的魄力好不好?跟周院長報告、跟賴總統報告,這個事情我看還是要賴總統來拍板周院長當然他是行政院院長"},{"start":11020.891,"end":11028.776,"text":"賴總統答應了事你重新再跟他報告一次好不好好那謝謝部長也謝謝局長你們的辛苦謝謝謝謝趙偉謝謝好謝謝陳委員接下來有請陳樹葉、趙偉發言謝謝主席請主席邀請陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":11058.957,"end":11076.412,"text":"部長早委員好我們看到交通部在9號有預告就是這個外送平台機車運送運價就是這個外送費的修正法規草案那是不是請部長先簡單說明一下就是說要修訂這樣子一個草案的緣由是基於什麼樣的"},{"start":11078.334,"end":11097.994,"text":"因為這個產業是新興的產業在臺灣我相信每一個人大部分的生活都會受到他的影響或者受到他的幫助這個產業到了現在當然有各個方面一方面是消費者一方面是外送員還有店家當然也還有企業就是產業面的部分其實關係到的範圍蠻大的"},{"start":11100.737,"end":11127.773,"text":"那有很多的聲音跟包括立法院相當多的委員希望說這個部分是不是政府可以多一些的管理對於消費者的權益也可以保障那對於勞工的權益也可以保障那不過這個部分大家討論完之後認為說有一個很重要的必須由交通部來推行的就是運價透明化這個部分因為畢竟我們這個行業它主要是在送貨那個貨是食物啦送食物送貨"},{"start":11128.593,"end":11155.741,"text":"那有很多的單位都希望說交通部是不是可以把這個運駕透明化的這個制定方向先把它拿出來先把它拿出來那這個部分交通部這陣子就在研擬這件事情我們希望透明化那希望有一個公式那這個公式由各方一起來達成協議就是我剛剛講的產業就是公司Uber平台平台業者那一方面是外送的工會外送員的工會那一方面是消費者"},{"start":11156.181,"end":11167.659,"text":"所以我們也特別拜訪了消費者基金會那之後的會議也會邀請他們來參加那地方政府以及公路局未來也會一起來制定整個運費的公式"},{"start":11168.3,"end":11172.342,"text":"是好那就是剛剛部長有講到一個重點就是這個運費的透明化所以應該就是一個很重要的問題應該就是這個運費的一個透明化的問題那我們也看到就是這個全國外送產業工會的理事長他在日前受訪的時候他也有很明確的講出來就是說"},{"start":11189.47,"end":11215.826,"text":"這個外送平台在2021年前就是運價都有詳細的計算公式那在2021年4月之後那這個計費的公式就不公開所以讓外送員的收入減少5到7成不等那就是約略估算就是之前他們可能一個單收入可以60元可是在4月之後他們可能就只就是減到剩40元甚至剩24元那這樣子真的是"},{"start":11216.606,"end":11217.547,"text":"所以對於這樣子的一個修正草案那也引起了很多的一個討論"},{"start":11232.215,"end":11260.99,"text":"我們看到在我們9號公告之後網路的媒體也做了一個民意調查就是在10月11跟10月15他有做了一個投票他也有去做這樣子的一個訪問對於外送運費的一個修法準則支持度還算蠻高的應該都是有支持這樣子的一個修法的方向"},{"start":11262.15,"end":11288.169,"text":"第二個問題那就是說如果說未來運價準則就是它的費用可能會調漲的話那是不是還會點外送可是就有高達55的這個比例不會再點那先請教部長你認為這樣子的一個民調可信度如何我覺得他的題目第一題或許比較正常但第二題我認為這個有引導性就是有陷阱"},{"start":11288.923,"end":11304.623,"text":"對他就說如果外送將那個運費將調漲60到85元等等對那這個部分其實是有些引導對那就事實上是會調漲60到85還是說會調漲到60至85那是不是就差很多"},{"start":11305.729,"end":11332.686,"text":"是 而且報告委員其實我們現在整個修法的方向主要是針對透明化的機制的部分我們在做討論但是運價不一定會上漲喔運價不一定會上漲因為未來各方所討論出來制定的那個運價制定出來之後我們只有制定上限沒有制定下限當我們上限訂出來代表什麼代表它的運價不可以超過我們規定的上限但"},{"start":11333.106,"end":11346.926,"text":"要往下例如說現在很多人我時常在用Uber Eats我是用免運費的那個方案未來廠商可不可以繼續用免運費當然可以他可以繼續用免運費這個沒有問題所以沒有那一種調漲60到85元這個議題並不存在"},{"start":11349.91,"end":11359.803,"text":"所以這是假議題我認為是假議題所以這很重要我覺得這樣子的話可能就是會讓很多人誤解那因為我也看到一份報導這是一個媒體的一個關鍵一個評論的媒體他也說就是這樣子的一個訊息出來之後"},{"start":11367,"end":11384.733,"text":"消基會也表示反對那我不曉得說這方面您找到的報告員這個部分應該是有一些誤解消基會所聽到的消息是調漲但我剛剛也跟委員報告過我們這次沒有要做任何調漲的討論我們只有針對機制的透明化做討論"},{"start":11386.754,"end":11416.054,"text":"討論出來的那個機制他不一定是調漲有可能大家因為到時候消基會也會是討論的一方他們也會加入討論的一方所以消費者的權益一定會得到保障他不一定就是一定調漲那消基會得到的訊息可能是片面的事後我們有跟消基會做溝通那局長也特別去拜訪過消基會的董事長他們聽完之後他們也認為說透明化對於消費者的權益保障應該是有幫助的所以他們也支持透明化這個方案"},{"start":11416.434,"end":11419.017,"text":"是 可是就是說當然這是剛剛部長回答的啦可是如果說看我們針對這個目前公告的這個修法的一個方向啊內容就是有提到說在幾種情況下可以加收等待費、樓層費、夜間加成費、春節運費等等"},{"start":11436.174,"end":11449.88,"text":"加收這樣子的話就是等於就是真的會漲啊報告委員這個裡面是得啦你可以把這個當作計價方案但也可以不把它當作計價方案可以討論這是可以討論的所以我說過"},{"start":11452.681,"end":11478.337,"text":"這一次我們的討論重點是放在透明化的機制透明化的機制運價透明化的機制那至於運價透明化裡面該包含哪些內容目前還在討論階段我們下禮拜三會有一個座談會邀集了消機會邀集了這個平台業者邀集了外送員工會大家一起來討論未來可能的計價機制那現在的狀況是這樣現在是沒有把這些放進去但"},{"start":11478.857,"end":11508.2,"text":"到底消費者所承受的運價是多少目前是沒人知道的送的那個人不知道付錢的那個人也不知道這是目前大家遇到的問題是 所以本席在這邊也希望就是說我們在修正這樣子一個法案可能會影響的也就是聯動的就是三方嘛平台、消費者還有店家所以這個也是非常的重要所以我們是不是也有可能去做一個民調就是針對外送員的族群去做一個"},{"start":11509.32,"end":11521.288,"text":"民意調查然後消費者也做一個民意調查還有店家也做一個民意調查對於他們所擔心的疑慮因為我們看到媒體的報導包括店家他們也擔心就是說這個外送平台這樣一個新興的產業這樣子的一個供應鏈"},{"start":11525.331,"end":11527.773,"text":"新制通過後,多數成本轉嫁平台、消費者或店家身上下單人意願低"},{"start":11541.124,"end":11561.964,"text":"外送員可能就接不到單那店家也會賺不到錢那最後就是就是會影響到這個外送產業的一個就是會打擊到或者是沒落那這個都是一個連動的一個影響那是不是我們應該要去針對這三個族群去做一個很確切的一個民意調查"},{"start":11562.985,"end":11581.44,"text":"掌握真實的民意因為畢竟我覺得這個法令實施之後你要再來修改也是會需要很長的時間我們的討論的過程一定會把各方的意見都納入這個委員您放心我們在討論的過程各方的意見都會納入但我看這兩篇報導都是把成本增加"},{"start":11582.361,"end":11601.119,"text":"作為前提但成本不一定是增加成本不一定是增加我們只是針對透明化就是你該怎麼計價透明化這個跟成本的增加或減少是沒有關係的所以我覺得有一些訊息是錯誤的刻意給店家這樣的訊息如果成本增加如果到你身上怎麼辦用這個前提這是不對的設定"},{"start":11602.125,"end":11603.886,"text":"接下來有請蔡奇昌委員發言"},{"start":11635.892,"end":11637.973,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長、林司長、陳局長林司長還有陳局長 謝謝"},{"start":11650.706,"end":11677.617,"text":"三位早時間有限今天有幾個問題就叫第一個台藝縣這個大甲溪橋的改建工程大安溪橋的改建工程這個本席一直以來非常關心這些年來我們也不斷的會勘也開過多次的協調會議那基本上交通部的態度是全力支持無論是從過去幾任的部長都是支持我想陳部長應該也是支持"},{"start":11678.357,"end":11706.198,"text":"那重點來了就是說那個預算經費龐大那部裡面公路局曾經跟本席報告過這個要特別的這個請行政院特別來支持那我想請那個局長大概現在目前的狀況預算的狀況是如何是跟委員報告因為省改計畫就是說我們西一期的計畫有提報到行政院那整體的匡列的經費因為確實就是說省道上面有很多的一些道路跟橋樑要做對要做"},{"start":11707.799,"end":11728.748,"text":"所以大概就是說我們自己是評估就是說已經匡列的經費對於就是說有一些新增的因為這個是算是說新增的改建的工程可能會經費上面比較不足所以我們大概也會再爭取一種就是說大概匡列的經費未來可以再增加或是修正另外一種就是說比如說提專案的計畫去跟行政院爭取"},{"start":11728.988,"end":11748.417,"text":"OK 這個部長 這個應該你要積極一下啦 因為這以前很簡單 以前不是很簡單 以前要努力譬如說只要部長同意送到行政院對於新興的這個計畫是民眾需要的 因為大甲溪、大安溪是台一線當中中部非常重要的兩個橋樑"},{"start":11749.457,"end":11772.439,"text":"那年代已經很久遠了我們經不起這個橋樑有任何的散失這個是影響生命財產非常巨大的事情但以前只要部長同意院長同意就解決了對不對那這一關其實就已經要花一點力氣了啦因為就如同局長所講的全台灣那個省道要修的道路橋樑這麼多嘛但現在更複雜了"},{"start":11773.82,"end":11790.695,"text":"因為現在啊如果在野黨不審預算啊我們的新興計畫是民眾嗷嗷逮捕這些新興計畫是沒有一項動得了嘛預算沒過新興計畫沒有錯這個我很了解我在立法院那麼久了我很了解所以又比以前更困難了但是不管多困難啊"},{"start":11791.736,"end":11814.79,"text":"我想民眾對於這些他們期待趕快政府期待政府要做的事情那第一關要先部裡面跟行政院要同意嘛所以部長你要記得這件事情因為前面兩個部長都答應本席一定會跟行政院記者我也會跟行政院長來做一個報告來爭取好不好那之後我們再來看看立法院對這個預算的審查要怎麼來處理第二個問題這個"},{"start":11818.786,"end":11841.353,"text":"民眾其實不斷的反映臺中的市民也是這個樣子就是這個今天大家在討論這個運輸特別像公車人力不足的問題那這個人力不足就導致這個托班嚴重你看這個隨便這個新聞報導臺北市托班嚴重對不對臺中市這個公車駕駛方深夜末班車下午4點就開走"},{"start":11842.173,"end":11861.243,"text":"長輩等沒車啦其實不只長輩等沒有車啦我想過去這一年來很多的上班族上學的同學啊這個因為拖班導致比如說很多學生他就遲到了嘛他應該預估15分鐘要來一班的他都算好了結果那一班沒來"},{"start":11862.571,"end":11887.981,"text":"他去學校就遲到了然後有一些上班的也因為沒來他也上班也遲到了所以這影響民眾的生活很巨大剛剛討論過的我就不再重複了部裡面跟勞動部怎麼去想辦法讓這個問題可以解決這是一回事但短期我希望交通部能做一件事情你要督促各地方政府就是據時已報"},{"start":11890.049,"end":11918.09,"text":"你讓你公車明明15分鐘你就沒有辦法來一班嘛因為你的司機明顯就不足了嘛但是你讓消費者讓市民的期待是15分鐘一定有一班結果你就給我拖班所以他本來可以自己你告訴他因為我沒有辦法請到我這個市長無能我市長沒有辦法處理到這個事情所以我15分鐘一班的公車我現在告訴你30分鐘一班"},{"start":11919.568,"end":11942.937,"text":"那上班上學的同學們跟這些上班族、市民朋友們他就知道說現在30分鐘一班那我該自己不行的我就要想辦法搭Uber或者搭計程車或者自己開車或者什麼這個才讓人家有預期嘛不然你看光這一年來跟本席服務處投訴幾號公車又拖班、幾號公車又拖班害他遲到"},{"start":11944.554,"end":11961.493,"text":"喔 這個真的是不勝美舉啊那為什麼地方政府你不好好地把你就你就有困難你就請不上你市長就要出來解決嘛你要告訴大家實話啊你不可以每次都一直拖班啊所以部長這個可不可以請我們的監理單位這個上級"},{"start":11964.596,"end":11989.696,"text":"我們有請公路總局針對這個市區公車的部分合理性的班表再做檢討我們會要求地方政府要再針對這個部分做檢討合理性的班表是為什麼一方面是要讓民眾知道我什麼時候有車什麼時候沒車這個要務實要講實話那第二就是說時間也不要拉得太緊因為有時候公車的駕駛他為了趕時間你用那種不合理的班表他就要趕時間就要開很快"},{"start":11990.657,"end":12009.277,"text":"所以也危險所以合理性的頒表我們會再努力沒錯這個一定要努力啦就是說我其實大家不是趕你那個車子而是因為你讓我預期你告訴我你上面告訴我這個幾分鐘15分鐘一班車或者20分鐘一班車但是不是這樣子嘛那個都是參考用的"},{"start":12009.918,"end":12037.79,"text":"那這個就很嚴重了這個就跟過去我們昨天在罵台鐵是一樣的問題所以這個一定要加強監督好不好這個要當成跟地方政府這個監督的重點再來另外這個遊覽車的評鑑我看了一下好像這個112年度又比110年度這個甲等跟乙等好像甲等就越來越少乙等越來越多這個我想請教一下我們如果得到優等有什麼獎勵"},{"start":12039.811,"end":12059.992,"text":"局長是不是我們大概就是說對於就是說業者的一些管理他的強度優等就會變得比較低比如說他到公司的一些查核的這個頻率就會比較少那對於就像比如說不列等我們就每個月都去一等的話比如一劑那第二個跟各位報告就是優等的我們都公告"},{"start":12060.652,"end":12089,"text":"有等假等公告公告以後其實我們也就是說宣導這個旅行社還有學校他們就是要去看租車的時候你公告就在我們交通部的網站我們網站還有就是說像車子我們也宣導車子旁邊車門有QR code其實他一般的民眾掃一下就知道說這個業者大概是平等是怎麼樣這個喔局長這個分消極面跟積極面消極面我們當然就是要防範"},{"start":12090.473,"end":12113.371,"text":"業者都大家亂來嘛所以你要有一套評鑑來督促要求他們但是我覺得這個積極面不夠啦就你要讓大家努力去做一個好人優秀的人做一個讓大家肯定的人那你就要有一些獎勵嘛我們孩子功課好頒獎功課進步我們也頒獎"},{"start":12116.625,"end":12141.108,"text":"他就是公開啊直接就是公開這樣做嘛那你要讓大家努力往上爬是因為直接講這是商業行為讓他有誘因嘛這是誘因設計的問題嘛如果我因為這樣譬如說我拿特優的假設啦政府都優先政府要聘遊覽車我都直接從特優開始特優沒有我才找甲等"},{"start":12142.005,"end":12159.994,"text":"那我的獎勵我讓所有使用遊覽車大量的跟政府相關的業者相關的機關我都發函告訴他甚至我的甲等的遊覽車上面都有頒布像米其林這樣子這台車米其林三星的"},{"start":12161.752,"end":12180.354,"text":"你現在去餐廳走路看到那個米其林你就會覺得說這間應該不會踩雷啦所以一樣的道理嘛我們要做評鑑你就要真的把它落實啦消極面我們不能只處理消極面好像只是抓害蟲我們要鼓勵才對"},{"start":12181.465,"end":12195.948,"text":"另外業者也會有一些抱怨就是我們幾乎都是這個叫我們就招標嘛專家學者啦或者什麼單位來招標標評鑑遊覽車啦我不反對因為總是要有人去評鑑嘛"},{"start":12196.949,"end":12224.665,"text":"但是我的意思是說這個評鑑當然項目我看過具體清楚但是是不是憑藉這些項目就是優等、甲等、乙等、丙等是不是我認為這個應該跟業者多多溝通因為業者的抱怨意思就是說學者都活在外太空的世界裡面實務面裡面這些評鑑的項目不一定符合所謂優、甲、乙的"},{"start":12226.077,"end":12254.546,"text":"這個內容所以這個我是建議多溝通啦因為說實在話你怎麼定都有人你怎麼定都有人有意見但是你要讓多數的業者覺得參加這一個評鑑他是覺得有意義的好不好這個我們再加強一下那最後一個大家今天討論這個外送平台其實怎麼定本席沒有意見但是怎麼定交通部這個困難或者政府的困難在於怎麼定都要適應"},{"start":12255.933,"end":12283.05,"text":"當然要店家贏、消費者贏、我們的外送員贏、平台業者也要贏啦對那透明是第一步啦是就是因為你不透明大家相互猜忌嘛對外送員一定覺得說我收到錢你都留大部分的利潤留在平台我外送員只領一點點但是如果你實際當然我不瞭解啦但是如果我實際從報章雜誌去看到的"},{"start":12285.336,"end":12303.383,"text":"平台幾乎都虧錢嘛我不知道台灣的平台是不是賺錢平台在台灣應該是賺錢不然他那個併購我聽說他併購的價值要花308億那個主委那個我們那個公平會李主委來麻煩一下平台業者在台灣賺錢還是虧錢"},{"start":12307.476,"end":12334.379,"text":"這個每個兩個平台業者的營運狀況不同是不是賺錢可能要他們不是申請要申請要併購嗎資料送來沒有申請有一些文件已經到有一些文件對那你看了文件他們是賺錢還是虧錢這個從文件上很難就是說賺不賺錢要從很多面向沒關係沒關係就是他們基本有財報嘛是主委如果你覺得這個是不可以公佈的你也可以告訴本席"},{"start":12335.663,"end":12360.672,"text":"所以如果你覺得說這個是可以公佈的因為我看報章雜誌他們的獲利模式是先壟斷再獲利嘛所以全球的這個平台業者都在哭說他們已經幾十年成立十年來聊話者已經都在講這個嘛所以看起來讓消費者覺得他都在虧錢嘛我做一個閱聽者我也覺得他虧錢的但聽部長講起來好像不一定或許國家有差別所以我問你台灣到底虧錢還是不虧錢"},{"start":12363.559,"end":12382.465,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個兩家營業額營業額大概就是去年是600億跟500億台幣對那福平台我們知道他今年有轉就是有轉正了是有賺錢賺錢了啦好那這個齁要做到透明如果連這個都不能公佈剛剛陳部長講的透明就不可能了"},{"start":12384.304,"end":12409.639,"text":"因為你沒有公開的財報你如何未來我們政府當政府要去介入現在看起來是沒有人沒有人要當爐主這到底要誰來管沒有人要當這個法如果要定專法要定沒有爐主但不管怎麼樣爐主是誰以後我們在這個要討論但重點在於公開透明的第一步就像上市公司一樣他的財報讓大家很清楚"},{"start":12410.407,"end":12439.464,"text":"他每一單他的毛利多少、利率多少要清楚我們才可以大家才可以要談判的過程裡面才有一個準則嘛我不知道這個是不是應該要可不可以公平會你們當你們看到要併購的時候這個東西是不是可以公佈啦我不知道齁我剛剛問你所以你可以公佈你就告訴本席你不可以公佈你就隱晦其講但是你試想如果這個是不可以公佈的那政府要如何去介入讓他公開透明"},{"start":12441.116,"end":12460.716,"text":"這個本身我們就矛盾了啦這個本身就矛盾了所以你只有把利潤很清楚的透過他的財報攤在陽光下你要說服這個這個我們的辛苦的外送員才可以知道告訴你說這是什麼你分這個錢合不合理嘛因為我們的貨運"},{"start":12463.438,"end":12483.941,"text":"運輸貨運管理業我們有這些同業的大家可以來看他的這個標準是什麼這個才可以有做到這個嘛然後我也覺得很奇怪交通部要來管這個齁那個郵差有沒有專法那個我從小我們就看他騎摩托車啊他也在送東西耶他是依照什麼法來管理是依照這個郵政法"},{"start":12484.52,"end":12495.723,"text":"還有依照郵政法來管理嘛那未來郵政法跟你你送信的叫做郵政法那送食物的那是什麼法"},{"start":12496.394,"end":12524.355,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在就是說送郵物的部分跟一般貨物的部分包括這一個外送的部分原則上在法規上是有一條線對那一條線的界線是什麼那條線的部分因為它那個就是說這一個郵件的部分的話就是偏向這個就是書面這些相關的東西那像這一個郵局它如果說遞送包裹那也是算是送貨了"},{"start":12525.816,"end":12550.655,"text":"所以你看喔 我不問這個問題喔 大家又不是傻傻啦阿你剛剛解釋我聽起來還是不是傻傻啦阿所以誰要來主管這個事情我就會立刻想到你交通部你也有郵差阿阿郵差也是騎著摩托車在送阿阿他的 我貼了郵票讓他送到 我付了錢讓他去送那他到底郵差抽多少"},{"start":12552.207,"end":12565.105,"text":"這個都是問題啦我沒有答案我只是點出來說到底誰要來管這個因為他的商業模式很簡單嘛他一樣有送貨的部分但是他的接單卻是數位的平台"},{"start":12566.397,"end":12591.542,"text":"然後呢它是跟店家又要連結然後消費者又要付費嘛對不對所以它看起來這個環節裡面很複雜嘛所以不要掛一漏萬啦不要說到時候齁換郵差來說欸啊我送這個我領這個薪水因為我好像送的單比我的同事多捏我的件數啊我送票齁我都一天我都送100斤他送50斤他才會到我那樣"},{"start":12594.585,"end":12622.515,"text":"我們郵差沒有這個我們才是進去哪一個幾等就領多少薪水嘛 對不對對所以這個都要整體考量啦本席覺得要適應啦要大家都贏這個管理政府的介入才有意義啦不然或者你這個就是裡外不是人啦這個你怎麼做都會有問題嘛就像要公開透明我剛剛問李主委他看起來這個要回答得很保守嘛 對不對這怎麼公開透明呢"},{"start":12623.563,"end":12651.715,"text":"時間的關係啦這個那個市長有空再到我辦公室來跟我講一下郵差的事情好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝蔡委員那現在時間12點請請教一下今天列席機關各單位有沒有沒有吃早餐的啊不是啊當然可能要自己先去補一下那我們沿上中午也要休息要不要休息啊"},{"start":12653.445,"end":12669.825,"text":"各機關有沒有什麼建議都還好啦如果說要廁所的請自行前往好不好那第二個是因為今天這個登記委員特別多還有20幾位那待會各位委員把握時間好 謝謝大家接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":12684.177,"end":12685.06,"text":"主席有請部長好陳部長"},{"start":12699.301,"end":12725.6,"text":"部長我想今天這個主題大家都是針對我們的駕駛缺工跟減班、砍線的問題來希望交通部推動相關政策可是不要忘記我覺得勞權跟安全的重要性那相信部長對於駕駛人力的持續銳減的問題應該有充分掌握了不過我想問部長是我們的路線班次跟運量都縮減"},{"start":12726.801,"end":12755.85,"text":"照理來講事故應該是不是理論上應該也會事實上是減少的對那大貨車的這個事故數據部長不知道有沒有掌握大貨車對大客貨車大貨車應該是真大客貨車的事故數據有沒有事故數據是在成長的好來我們就來看一下那個數據的確如部長剛剛提的就是說照理來講"},{"start":12756.73,"end":12771.203,"text":"我的觀念應該半次減少運量減少應該會減少怎麼反而數據事實上是好像顯示的不是這麼一回事像整體的大貨車裡面的數量創10年新高而且尤其是大貨車跟公車"},{"start":12772.096,"end":12795.198,"text":"造成的傷亡人數還逐步惡化112年還是創10年最高我自己本身一直在關心兒童安全那過去也對這邊比較多努力所以我對事故傷害防治跟安全議題相當重視那今年也發生了幾起事我們的大型車輛跟兒少的交通事故那大型車輛的管理問題已經成詬病的時候"},{"start":12795.868,"end":12811.692,"text":"在這邊我有幾個問題要提醒交通部首先來看一下我們的客運業勞動條件非常的差已經是眾人所知的常態每年勞動部都有勞檢以112年為例我們的處分率17.42%17.42%裡邊三層事實上是汽車客運業"},{"start":12822.801,"end":12841.19,"text":"1200場有209件那17.12可是三成都是客運業者那第一名是工作超時台灣一直在處理酒駕可是始終一直沒有處理疲勞駕駛可是除了工作超時以外那第三名事實上是休息時間不足那跟111年也都一樣就我們始終沒有去面對疲勞駕駛可是這個我們的客運業者"},{"start":12847.472,"end":12860.777,"text":"面對到的是這樣子的一個問題再來看第二個問題也就是我們的駕駛的薪資結構非常奇形我引用媒體從判決書上得到的資料會發現公車業者號稱8萬塊"},{"start":12864.998,"end":12893.744,"text":"就是說業者是可以可是三分之一事實上是加班費然後全部都是用獎金所以也意味著什麼意味著要我們的司機要搶班又搶客那就會開的速度上甚至客人在那裡站牌的時候我就要很快速的插過去然後才可以得到這些獎金因為載客量事實上是他的獎金來源那所以我不知道部長"},{"start":12894.898,"end":12911.379,"text":"你對於像這樣子的用獎金用加班費對駕駛跟業者來講這個事實上這些選項都沒有太大就好像不斷的鼓勵我們的司機要愛拚才會贏才能賺得更多不知道你對這個狀況有掌握嗎"},{"start":12913.642,"end":12942.161,"text":"有掌握那我也覺得說這個目前客運業在缺工的狀況底下勞動條件是一個很重要的一環那如果勞動條件可以提升我相信客運的這個人才會更留得住更能夠吸納所以我們一直在鼓勵說業者是不是在勞動條件的方面可以來做更好的加強那這個部分我以後也會再實施對 所以我覺得是不是可以要強勢一點否則的話我覺得找不到好的人人也不會進去那我也先想問部長"},{"start":12942.921,"end":12950.056,"text":"你是不是知道平建機制當中勞權的分數到底比重佔多少這個部分是不是可以"},{"start":12954.48,"end":12973.867,"text":"老全有放進來嗎因為我們其實是在基本的安全紀錄裡面他有提到就是說比如說自顧啦違規啦還有違反勞動條件所以就是說有一些部分如果說他違反一些勞動條件的話他就會變成說我來幫你回答就是先看到事實上"},{"start":12974.625,"end":12975.765,"text":"國道客運5.1%一般公車客運5.4%"},{"start":12991.636,"end":13011.605,"text":"公路總局你們到底自己跟部長觀念是不是不太一樣都覺得勞權很重要可是在評鑑分數上並沒有呈現因為只佔了5%評鑑應該是以安全為主以交通部的立場大概以安全為主因為勞權的部分當然我們很重視但是勞動部的部分也會來協助這個"},{"start":13012.605,"end":13038.672,"text":"所以部長也要知道我們要好的人才有辦法事實上安全否則的話沒有辦法來我們公路局年年都去考察了可是年年退步到底出去考察應該不是去玩吧你106年就開始去考察啦你也會去看東南亞地區瞭解整個客運營運的那個狀況管理怎麼去做可是看起來10年駕駛人創新低以外可是我們大客"},{"start":13039.392,"end":13067.064,"text":"大貨客運的這樣子造成傷亡近創10年新高那你考察用意這樣子有達到嗎似乎在浪費公帑下一頁所以另外運安會也在建議說你是不是應該建立安全管理機制不過更重要應該是輔導業者設置專責單位或人來修訂評鑑的執行要點來把安全管理納入"},{"start":13067.697,"end":13081.444,"text":"一個評選的考量再來看公視已經幫你們做完功課106年的時候公視就去採訪日本的巴士業者去針對一系列的報導甚至安全制度的改革行動包含我們的產業結構不要讓它銷價競爭"},{"start":13084.806,"end":13108.598,"text":"還有管理者的整個的駕駛的管理跟訓練要確保我們的駕駛有休息的時間甚至有沒有他的工時跟休息時間能不能有一些法則來確保我們駕駛者不會過度疲勞所以我們不希望說今天人家都幫你做完功課已經open book了你們還是無動於衷"},{"start":13111.007,"end":13137.308,"text":"應該不是考察作為只是玩樂應該是把考察東西拿回來之後好好的來落實所以對於公車客運駕駛我主張是不是政府可以用運駕貼補應以薪資結構正常化為條件來改善我們假高薪真拚命賺獎金的問題來吸引跟留用我們高品質人才"},{"start":13138.509,"end":13167.129,"text":"強化駕駛的勞動條件希望能夠儘速修訂公車、汽車客運業營運與服務評鑑執行要點來調整檢討評鑑項目第三個是應該落實我們考察跟研究報告的建議具體提出公車客運業者的管理制度跟改革短中長期計畫我不知道部長這邊可不可以在兩個禮拜內提出書面報告是 這個部分我們納入研議並且提出報告給委員好 謝謝部長 辛苦了"},{"start":13171.004,"end":13191.953,"text":"好 謝謝林委員接下來有請李昆城委員發言謝謝主席我們請這個交通部陳部長還有這個公路局陳局長陳局長"},{"start":13198.448,"end":13214.385,"text":"部長好、局長好、委員好我相信大家早上都問了很多有關於這個我們這個客運的司機這個人力不足的問題那其實我看了你們的這一個報告裡面也發現到就是說在公路客運這部分的話"},{"start":13215.546,"end":13222.492,"text":"現有人力是3625個人然後缺員是772個市區客運的話呢現有人力是10866個缺員是1443個然後遊覽車業者也有缺但是實際上我們林友這一個駕駛職業實照的這個司機數量是遠遠超過於這邊那部長或是局長這邊有沒有想到說為什麼"},{"start":13240.36,"end":13261.428,"text":"我明明有這一個這個執照有這個駕照那為什麼不願意投入這一個客運的司機的這個工作我想一般人的就業啦應該是考慮他的這個職場環境職場環境就是一個那另外就是待遇可能有沒有符合他的想像部長就點到兩個重點了吧一個是職場的環境的問題嘛那第二個就是說這個待遇的問題那其實我的問題跟剛剛岳勤委員的問題類似就是說"},{"start":13267.53,"end":13281.628,"text":"現在我們看好像這個司機他們月薪比如說坑月者司機可能月薪大概有多少?7、8萬以上有嗎?7、8萬甚至到10萬都有也有機會那他們的月薪是多少?"},{"start":13283.268,"end":13306.907,"text":"他們大概月薪是多少月薪如果委員所指的是他基本底薪基本底薪因為各家公司不一樣只是說剛剛所提到的那個是正常的排班之下的話大概就是說他們的平均薪資就是七八萬到有的資深的可以到十萬但是他們的底薪大概都是基本薪資那剩下都是用這個加班的方式"},{"start":13307.677,"end":13321.701,"text":"它是就是說有排班啦它有排班就是說因為比如說這個可能就是如果是你出班的那個日數啦頻率比較少的話所以1 3分之1是底薪1 3分之2是這個排班的這個薪水這樣講比例有沒有錯大概是1比2"},{"start":13325.578,"end":13349.394,"text":"我的問題就是在於說啦一比一或一比二都會有就是說就變成是說那如果沒有客運業者這個業績這個債運沒有受到影響的話那當然就是這個還可以維持下去但是在COVID-19之後整個都受到影響了嘛大家客運的人就減少了那變成說司機的薪水變相也減少了是不是有這個問題"},{"start":13351.778,"end":13372.474,"text":"如果班次少他的收入當然就會減少對啊就會減少那所以就是說這是剛剛部長提到的第二點就是說他的薪資的問題薪資的問題那我們剛剛有看到這一個現在在這個臺北車站吧臺北這一個營運站他那一個這個二樓的這一個我們看一下那一個照片這一個國道客運的臺北轉運站二樓是淪為空城那為什麼"},{"start":13381.72,"end":13406.069,"text":"當然客運業者他的業績狀況不太好這個大家都知道那再來就租金非常的高在二樓可能聽說要幾百對啊過去還真的過去那因為現在就是生意不好沒有這麼多人在那邊了嘛對啊那所以說臺北轉運站的二樓現在這個大概三四家租金比較便宜所以二樓現在就變成空城了嘛"},{"start":13407.169,"end":13435.98,"text":"國道客運的載客量衰退36%那也造成說那個業者他們的這一個營運的這個壓力增加那所以我要請教一下部長跟局長就是說第一個當然我們希望說能夠幫這一個司機來加薪水那加薪水這部分的話我看地方政府是有在做地方政府他們有在補助就是說這個比如像雙北大概"},{"start":13436.6,"end":13463.28,"text":"有可能在年底的時候會補助大概六千塊左右然後這部分的話在中央的部分的話對於這個國道科育業者有沒有這個想法或是說有這個機會來補助來補助我們這個國道科育業者報告委員這個補助地方政府會補助那我想中央也都有中央的補助是我們挑到這個那中央的補助勒"},{"start":13465.038,"end":13493.457,"text":"跟委員報告就是說基本上其實在整個的運價包括這一個公路客運跟國道客運的運價其實這兩年已經都做了相關的調整了合理的反映他們的運輸的成本那運價調整之後的話就是說我們都有要求業者就是說這個提升的這一個部分的話其實要回饋到這個駕駛的薪資的一個對啦那我的意思就是說我們現在注意這個地方政府地方政府他們有在補助司機啦那國道客運的駕駛有沒有辦法來補助勒"},{"start":13496.6,"end":13516.979,"text":"我們目前是補助給業者但是我們有要求補助給他的裡面有一定的比例是要給駕駛員那現在是補助是多少勒因為我們大概一年就是說像國道科運的話一年補助大概有6億元那公務科運一年有1到2億元那有多少是拿來是做這個月薪的這個調整勒"},{"start":13518.477,"end":13537.102,"text":"月薪的調整這個部分的話其實當初大概就是說在勞動條件上面我們有請業者就是說征服的這個部分因為大概都有增加10%的一個就是說他們這樣子啊你給我一個給我一個報告好了好不好就是說中央補助的部分的話大概他們薪資可以增加大概4000元"},{"start":13538.982,"end":13563.247,"text":"就是說 麻煩你給我一個比較明確的報告就是說你們對於這個業者的補助的話還有多少是拿來做這一個這個四季的加薪因為至少我知道說雙北他們都有加薪的六千塊啦然後還有這個國道路線的話現在是只有補助這個平面的兩個端點高速路段並沒有補貼那這個有沒有機會說在高速路段的部分比照平面路段這個採用準運機制納入補貼"},{"start":13565.337,"end":13579.512,"text":"這個部分我們也有在研議而且國道客運的話就是說我們除了就是說國道走平面路段有補貼以外另外就是說對於就是說這個運價成長之後它沒有反映到票價所以票差的這個部分我們也有給他們協助"},{"start":13580.633,"end":13606.998,"text":"那這部分我是希望說這個能夠協助這個客運業者啦因為其實客運還是有許多人他會選擇的一個搭運的一個交通的一個方式啦因為我們對於這個相對於說對高鐵啊對鐵路啊就相對好像有多一點這個關照的眼神那但是對客運業者說是比較少啦那我希望這一點也能夠再加強好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝局長謝謝委員"},{"start":13609.827,"end":13613.208,"text":"好 謝謝李委員 接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員發言主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府及官司長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳次長以及公路局陳局長哇 都是三位姓陳"},{"start":13643.926,"end":13666.97,"text":"我們等一下看一下那個簡報出來一下不好意思不好意思有時候電腦就是要弄綠色乖乖窗口氣啊 對不起"},{"start":13683.034,"end":13686.118,"text":"先聊一下不好啦要怎樣哪一個哪一個東西換筆電嗎"},{"start":13707.711,"end":13720.057,"text":"好 沒事沒事發生一點技術性問題齁那那個位置調一下齁那個 曾委員的曾委員會不會往後面調一下齁我們請 好 劉啟庭委員 啊 好了嗎五分鐘五分鐘"},{"start":13728.953,"end":13749.208,"text":"好請劉舉廷委員發言好謝謝主席也是不是要一樣的對我看就一樣好了我們節省時間這個好我們看一下今天現在沒有技術問題了今天一樣要討論這個客運的問題其實上一次部長在做業報的時候我就已經把話講得非常清楚了來現在客運業者的問題"},{"start":13750.606,"end":13777.325,"text":"第一個這個乘客量在疫情過後開始逐漸攀升嘛但是基本上疫情這一波把大部分客運業者都打趴了另外就是說駕駛人數其實從總體來看是一個下降趨勢那不只是人數變少而已還有高齡化的問題那你知道高齡駕駛總是相對危險所以客運業業者跟客運業的人力的新陳代謝它其實是非常重要的事情所以說客運缺工駕駛高齡化其實是交通部要面對的很重要的問題部長同意嗎"},{"start":13777.765,"end":13805.533,"text":"同意好現在喔這個人才大量流失了為什麼請部長回答一方面勞動條件一方面薪資的問題那再來就是說當時因為疫情所以很多的客運業者的狀況不太好很多的人才就直接流失了那也直接就轉到其他的行業去要回來不太容易再來還有一點就是大家對於客運的這個服務的品質要求其實蠻高的沒錯很多的客運的司機員大家都反映說壓力相當的大好"},{"start":13806.313,"end":13830.357,"text":"不錯部長這次回答我是非常滿意基本上完全命中第一個叫疫情重挫乘車需求嘛讓業者的營運狀況雪上加霜第二個基本上是因為勞基法修了一例一休之後當然要保障他們的工時這本席完全同意可是相對來講是造成了這個實務上的一些競合的狀況也就是說客運業者有些他可能真的是生活啊非常非常辛苦加一分薪水他後來算了一下發現最近有新聞開始講啊我去開Uber去跑外送加起來搞不好"},{"start":13831.297,"end":13859.973,"text":"勞動時間一樣長他寧願讓自己過勞但是他可以賺的錢比較多他不受這樣子的一個規範所以他相對來講又吃掉了一部分司機的緣額第三個就是勞動的環境跟條件除了薪資不高之外常常被人家客訴每次要等這個待命的時候在破破爛爛的場站裡面連躺下來休息的地方都沒有這些勞動環境的不佳也是客運司機心灰意冷的原因部長問題意識非常清楚但是解決方案不清楚"},{"start":13860.473,"end":13888.119,"text":"問題意思清楚也沒有用嘛是不是部長是以這一段時間來講我們剛剛講因為疫情的關係我們必須要先幫客運業者打幾劑強心針讓他們至少願意留在市場上更有甚者你必須拿政府的補貼來增加價值的薪水方向都正確但這個額度能看嗎部長部長我們總共有幾家全國有幾家國道客運業者這個數字我不曉得齁但是欸這數字是你交通部的業報寫的捏那是不是今天的報告大家桌上都有請局長你要不要說明一下"},{"start":13893.188,"end":13915.86,"text":"加速的部分就是客運業者有300多家然後你運價這樣總共因為你講嘛差額由政府補貼一年額度是1.3億這個是一般的一般公路客運那還有國道客運的我知道但我的意思是說這個額度啊其實是不成比例的"},{"start":13916.36,"end":13942.978,"text":"今天的問題已經很嚴重嚴重到基本上業者都送進家務病房司機通通不願意來他如果是這麼嚴重的狀況你還在說吃感冒藥要上葉克膜的病人你給他吃感冒藥有用嗎其實是沒有用的啦我要提醒部長我希望部長上次我們討論的時候我說部長相對年輕應該要拿出魄力我們在整個政府在交通裡面的這個相關的預算隨便拿出來比一條啦你就發現那個落差其實非常巨大捷運工程很重要本席完全同意可是相對來講硬體跟軟體總要"},{"start":13945.72,"end":13958.497,"text":"總要平衡吧你看這個比例差額也是不能看啦每一年我們要再下載當然補助各地方政府協助建設加起來幾千億那是跑不掉的但是相對來講你整個全國客運的補貼加加起來"},{"start":13959.468,"end":13984.831,"text":"不到捷運的一根毛啊這就是問題嘛新政府上任之後我們期待他是有新的思維500億投資在科運業者可能很多狀況改變了你這真的大筆的預算政策方向的大的調整出來的時候我們才能夠大幅度的比如說改善運價的條件我幫科運業者專案加薪這是本席的第一個建議啦但我到現在沒等到從本席就任立法委員以來從看守內閣我就問這個事您上任的時候其實我也提過這個事"},{"start":13985.612,"end":14009.493,"text":"我不曉得這個是什麼時候才會落實但我真的很誠懇的希望交通部面對問題的核心其實就是交通部要不要做一個資源的結構性的調整讓公車這件事情變成交通部的重點業務目標有相應的資源跟人力下去的時候你才有辦法大幅度的改善事情要不然像上次運價調整那個調整搞了一年多溝通就調了一塊兩毛五"},{"start":14010.174,"end":14030.456,"text":"那個跟葉澤泰根本沒有解決問題啊因為那個大部分是由政府吸收所以民眾影響的比較對你為了擔心這個東西那你擔心的時候你政府的我剛剛為什麼講要有個幾百億的預算規模就是因為不要衝擊民眾搭車的情況因為你要養量嘛你不衝擊的情況下你政府當然要下大資源嘛那我講我說下個五百億在全國的公車系統不虧啊"},{"start":14031.016,"end":14055.3,"text":"因為客運跟公車的量養起來也是幫未來的捷運在養量啊也是在減少塞車跟停車的問題絕對划算所以預算的大幅投入我期待交通部可以作為第二個是有關勞動條件的部分我今天點一下後面我們有時間再做討論客運的場站公共汽車的停車場從來沒有在我們的都市計畫或者是區域計畫裡面被深刻的討論但它有沒有需要?它有需要"},{"start":14055.58,"end":14083.487,"text":"因為它是交通節點它也可以改善業者的投資環境也改善司機的勞動環境這件事情如果交通部能夠把它列為重點工作項目在幾個地方先行事辦把這個東西打開也許業者才會感受到我們的政府對這個政策的重視也只有從這種大的方向有魄力來著手才有辦法改善業者倒閉司機缺工的問題來改善公車的品質希望部長可以盡快的提出解決方案可以嗎是 好"},{"start":14084.187,"end":14103.274,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝您委員講得很重要那個停車場真的是他們是找一天過一天算一天所以不可能有像樣的硬體的投資所以我們的駕駛員也不可能有像樣休息空間我覺得是蠻有道理你們研究接下來請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":14111.298,"end":14115.865,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席政府集團首長、管理員、會長、工作夥伴那有請剛才那三位陳部長、陳局長、陳次長好,三位"},{"start":14123.459,"end":14145.856,"text":"部長、次長、局長今天又見面了,再次見面第二次好,今天呢,大概問題就是補足客運價值來維持公共運輸那克服法定障礙引入了PT能力是我的重點其實呢,前面大概部長都回答光了我後面可以更快的推進,來往下看1號,客運的運量不如以往,剛剛部長也說了請問部長,運量沒有上升是乘客不想搭車還是客運車沒有人開"},{"start":14147.523,"end":14156.67,"text":"綜合因素啦綜合因素缺價值也是因素嘛好往下看那麼目前統計你們的報告說客運價值缺額超過2000人那缺額沒有補足會造成什麼樣的惡果"},{"start":14158.92,"end":14181.421,"text":"缺額如果沒有補足它的路線就少嘛它的班次就少那當然班次一少民眾願意搭乘的意願當然也就降低那它整體的營收也跟著會降低然後所以說我剛剛在聽你講話我都把你的速記筆記都記好了班次不足人數不夠班次減少民眾選擇四人運劇載客量下降客運業就虧損對不對那這二運行循環怎麼解決"},{"start":14183.451,"end":14201.368,"text":"你們有做嘛你們是說第一你們把駕駛人的年齡從65歲提到68歲對不對已經在開車了讓他開更久一點另外一個呢開始培養那個培育就業補助等等是不是這樣是好那延長開車年齡這個我是認同啦因為目前國人的健康情況都很好其實呢這個68歲他其實開車很穩我OK的"},{"start":14204.611,"end":14230.291,"text":"但是這些培育出來的人到底有沒有去上班啊還是他上了沒幾天就跑掉了新培育的人原來在開的人你讓他開久一點可以延長一年對不對那些要引進來開車的人有留得住嗎往下看有沒有留住我們希望能夠留得住啦表示很難留得住嘛那剛剛就整理了幾位的嘛工時長、無貪性、心情差、壓力大是不是這樣子"},{"start":14231.813,"end":14250.255,"text":"這是目前我們客運車駕駛遇到問題部長也認同嘛那這問題怎麼辦呢往下看其實你認為客運業啊它需要哪種人力是尖峰的運量都需要人力多還是離峰的時候當然是尖峰當然是尖峰好現在問題來了過去我們傳統的客運駕駛呢它的車輛是固定的"},{"start":14251.637,"end":14273.092,"text":"離峰的時候少開班次 尖峰的時候全軍出動這時候你覺得他拼多少駕駛 他是不是要跟車輛一樣多的駕駛甚至要更多一點 因為要輪班休息嘛 是不是這樣所以客運的駕駛他們維持的司機人數 全職的司機人數其實有一半的時間是沒有在上班的 但他綁住"},{"start":14274.173,"end":14301.432,"text":"所以其實有人就提出那可不可以用PT part-time的人力我在尖峰的時候把這些來兼差的一天只上工3小時的我請他就那尖峰的3小時來投入車子閒置我沒問題因為車子要保養人我不能閒置需要的時候再上工可以嗎可以使用PT的人力嗎有沒有法規上的限制目前法規上好像還沒有允許可以用part-time的嘛他具備資格他一天上班4個小時不可以嗎"},{"start":14303.204,"end":14321.789,"text":"這個其實是屬於就是說勞用條件而且是業者跟駕駛之間的這個契約的約定是的來為什麼要請次長來次長就來啦其實今天柯業者想要採行的不同於傳統的全職僱用制他就是說他需要一些part-time的人力來應付尖峰時段的駕駛的人數需求"},{"start":14323.109,"end":14342.951,"text":"你們有限制嗎?法定人數有限制嗎?報告委員,就勞動部業管的部分勞工到底是從事全時工作還是部分工時然後用他的採薪的月薪、時薪、日薪這些都沒有限制只要他符合勞動法令的規範所以現在業者沒有採用的原因他們對於法令不了解有這些彈性"},{"start":14344.012,"end":14368.45,"text":"業者不瞭解 受雇者也不瞭解 受雇者覺得我吃一個頭露來 部長現在請你來齁其實我發現呢 從今天談的烏貝伊迪達 福潘達啦 還是這些多元計程車我發現年輕的工作者 他們傾向的是什麼一天兼三份差 他不要綁在一個工作上8個小時 12個小時他希望呢 我有彈性 今天上兩份工 明天上一份工你覺得是不是年輕人現在比較希望這樣"},{"start":14370.103,"end":14391.415,"text":"還有另外一種已經是退休的人他其實呢他的經濟條件不錯可是他覺得閒在家裡沒事幹那我年紀大了我也不可能做8個小時我來做4個小時3個小時你覺得有沒有可能這樣的那個中高齡就業的部分有沒有市長有沒有中高齡就我們不鼓勵退休的人他回來再做個兩三個小時支不支持"},{"start":14392.185,"end":14415.481,"text":"我們基本上都不反對所以問題來了部長往下看所以今天我們要解決要提升客運的運量要先解決司機慌那我覺得目前我們客運業者他們可能對法令的彈性不夠了解或者交通部要協助他們因為現在想要當駕駛的他不想要一天8個小時12個小時綁在公司"},{"start":14416.221,"end":14445.078,"text":"同樣的有些退休的人他還能力可以開車但他沒有辦法坐足8個小時你覺得未來我們的長途客運駕駛接不接受這樣的人力報告委員我們現在在法令上面並沒有規範說不行對但是你們沒有積極的去幫他們開發你們與其辦培訓課不如協助各客運業者怎麼樣去找出一種僱用模式所以我請交通部跟勞動部針對徵聘PT人力就業者的成本跟勞工的權益進行研議上個月內提出說明報告可以嗎"},{"start":14446.245,"end":14450.423,"text":"好 那另外一個呢 給我們一個對象 什麼人很想要一個part-time的工作"},{"start":14451.892,"end":14481.552,"text":"假類農民怎麼講他已經是領中生後的退出役官兵了他可能還40幾歲50歲啊身體還很好啊可是你叫他怎麼樣去看公寓大樓嗎你叫他去賣當三寶嗎賣零骨塔嗎他覺得我每天跟人接觸我還可以覺得退休很有意義像這樣的退出役官兵我跟退服會問過他們很樂意輔導他們來轉職做長途客運業交通部要不要跟退服會研究一下擴大招募PD人力找退服會一起合作"},{"start":14482.352,"end":14483.974,"text":"接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":14518.373,"end":14519.34,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":14529.141,"end":14555.559,"text":"好部長好部長我們今天討論這個大型客運的短缺駕駛短缺的部分其實這是各行各業都有這個缺工的問題那其中我有看到你在今天的報告第三頁裡面已經有考慮要引進外籍的人力納入橋外生的這個呃擔任這些相關的工作嘛齁但是我們現在假設如果說以橋外生來講的話他有小客車駕照"},{"start":14556.53,"end":14582.651,"text":"那他要能夠獲得不管是大貨車駕照或者職業大貨車或是職業大客車駕照的話他都至少還要再幾年兩到三年一到兩年不等訓練的時間啊跟委員報告那個小型車要有一年到這個大貨車然後大貨車再一年到這個大客車但是如果說是小型車也有一個管道上駕訓班一年可以直升這個大客車"},{"start":14583.371,"end":14607.108,"text":"我們這個規定是不會因為喬拜森而修正嗎?不會不會所以說即便是這樣子的話那這樣子我們最快你也要一年之後而且你現在勞動部其實還沒有同意對不對?他們已經在進行法制的過程但是什麼時候可以?年底今年年底就可能有望通過或解套是不是?"},{"start":14608.793,"end":14630.029,"text":"來補充說明一下因為我覺得兩個部分一個是現在缺工的狀況那之前也有人提過說有沒有可能用外籍的駕駛那當然民眾會有疑慮可是你們現在也已經研議並且也認為是說這安全性上來講是沒有問題的報告委員今年8月勞動部有做討論那9月份在國發會那邊也整體會有一些共識"},{"start":14630.789,"end":14652.709,"text":"未來針對中階人力我們是鎖定在喬外申而不是一般的外籍人士因為喬外申他一定有工作報告裡面寫得很清楚有讀書他會比較融入本地的生活未來這部分我們在年底以前會把相關的法令建制修好修好之後就可以開始處理要處理之後就是剛才委員所"},{"start":14653.489,"end":14670.444,"text":"關切的畢竟他在國內從事職業駕駛他要有職業駕照所以說最少即便是今年年底都很順利的狀況今年年底但是他也要明年年底才有可能取得大客車或大貨車的駕照對不對最快"},{"start":14671.084,"end":14698.133,"text":"那這樣相對來講我們至少還有一年多的時間而且你開放了橋外生橋外生到底有多少人願意投入變成駕駛其實還不確定因為如同我們今天的報告來講就說我們現在的駕駛不管是公路客運其實有缺員差不多2000位2000多位而遊覽車客運也是2500到3000大貨車也有缺員的狀況但是實際上我們本國人拿的大貨車或大客車駕照的人還是多"},{"start":14698.653,"end":14699.153,"text":"國道客運上來講其實缺"},{"start":14714.891,"end":14731.327,"text":"駕駛的狀況很嚴重但是我們也想說因為國道客運跟一般客運比較不同的地方在於是國道客運他就一定要每個人一個座位他不能有站位那也變成是一台客運尤其本期最近我們林口地區很多人的這個反應是無障礙的巴士"},{"start":14732.028,"end":14760.134,"text":"他一個低體盤的公車座位只有22個所以他變成是說他22個坐滿之後就只能下一班但是缺員的狀況很嚴重駕駛員少有車發不出來那尤其在通勤時間就會造成說塞...就會造成是說他塞在那邊沒有辦法等很多班才能找得了是 沒有錯那部長過去到現在也有人提過要有沒有可能開放雙層巴士的空間我知道在之前"},{"start":14762.167,"end":14789.409,"text":"2023年的時候交通部有討論到時候否決當時否決的理由是認為說考量安全沒有開放不討論開放這個是交通部路政司的專委那時我也認為沒有錯如果說真的安全的話我們一定要考慮安全但是再拉過回頭來我們再去看其他世界各國確實也有些國家他是有開放雙程巴士上國道或是相關的快速道路的"},{"start":14790.109,"end":14812.238,"text":"那如果說其他國家有這樣的狀況那我們再反思我們現在講有沒有可能以事辦或者是限定路程的一個方式來做雙層巴士的一個開放因為這個是在今年3月我特別查了一下資料很多人在呼籲桃園在2023年去年就呼籲中央要開放雙層巴士上國道"},{"start":14813.138,"end":14831.298,"text":"今年2024年張善政市長他還特別講到說希望中央開放外籍司機跟雙層巴士上國道那我今天已經看到你們已經嚴議開放外籍司機等於是喬外申已經開放這部分了那另外一個部分雙層巴士"},{"start":14832.159,"end":14848.366,"text":"我覺得如果說我們怕安全的問題能不能雙層巴士設定時速他可能最高不能超過國道的一個標準比如說國道就是100公里他最高再怎麼踩他就是踩不過100公里那第二雙層巴士能不能在通勤時間能夠開放"},{"start":14850.595,"end":14870.022,"text":"比如說早上6點到9點這段時間是允許國道客運他們用雙乘巴士讓我們這些要通勤的朋友能夠有多的這個運量回來的時候也如此那第三我覺得更重要的是因為他是協助無障礙空間的駕駛他等於是多一倍嘛"},{"start":14872.128,"end":14892.218,"text":"部長有沒有這樣的可能性委員我想你的這個想法很好就是說在缺工的狀況底下在尖峰的時段如果可以一台車載運量更高的話多一倍的人力嘛對當然是可以因為現在缺工駕駛員少那這也是不爭的事實而且很多人是離開了這個行業之後他不願意再回來"},{"start":14893.498,"end":14912.147,"text":"離開的多進來的少對不對所以這個是個解決的好的方案不過我想我們內部先來討論一下安全性的部分尤其是國道因為國道的對於安全性的要求相對高當然剛剛有提出幾個前提或許可以做一些限制如果安全性符合的狀況底下或許這是可以考慮的方向或者是短程的範圍"},{"start":14912.967,"end":14937.925,"text":"譬如說假設桃園到雙北地區就是以區域性來講因為北北基桃是一個共同生活圈也許北北基桃內的國道客運可以用雙層巴士中張頭可能中張頭可以那我就不存在一台雙層巴士從台北開到高雄是沒有這樣的一個選項但是至少北北基桃可能可以試辦雙層巴士在北北基桃範圍內中張頭、雲嘉南、高高屏"},{"start":14941.528,"end":14957.547,"text":"用生活圈的概念但是把國道串聯那還有更重要其實如果說真的能夠推動的話就減少一台公車嘛我兩台變一台嘛我的空間釋出來嘛空間可能會更多的一個運用嘛那兩位駕駛變一位駕駛嘛"},{"start":14959.429,"end":14982.701,"text":"能不能這樣子演繹部長我想這一個部分就是相對專業而且也是苦民所苦那也是來了解大家心聲是不是召集一下一個月內開個會大家來討論一下吧然後最重要的是因為國外也有這樣的一個案例能不能找國外的經驗一起來談安全最優先考量但是以安全為前提的情況下我們用事辦的方式有沒有這個可能"},{"start":14983.474,"end":14998.673,"text":"我是建議是不是給我們一個月的時間一個月沒有問題我們有提到說國外有這樣的情況但是據我們所了解的部分我們看國外雙重巴士大概就是跟臺北、高雄、臺南這樣觀光巴士嘛觀光巴士就是在平面路段的一個部分"},{"start":14999.133,"end":15023.753,"text":"那真的就我們目前這邊是比較少看就是說在上高速公路因為高速公路的速限最起碼就是這一個60以上所以這些相關的資訊我們先這一個蒐集一下那第二個部分的話我也跟委員報告一下即使是double take的這一個雙程巴士的話它的容量絕對不是這個當成的兩倍但一定是比一台巴士人多嘛對多一點但是"},{"start":15024.994,"end":15041.182,"text":"這裡面的一個就是說相關的一個重點的一個部分的話大概就是兩個課題一個是重心的高度跟速度上面的部分這個我都理解所以我才會講是說是不是速限有一定的範圍如果說好做可能你過去就不會否決嘛"},{"start":15041.442,"end":15066.756,"text":"但我現在講的是說因為現在面臨的狀況還有就是現在人口成長越來越多生活圈大大的需求所以我才會考慮說是不是用事辦的方式來討論好不好我們來收集足夠的資訊再來跟委員報告好再麻煩一個月有相關的資料那我們要繼續追這件事情因為這關心到我相信這招我一定心有戚戚焉嘛桃園中壢的鄉親好朋友也會有雙北的需求啊"},{"start":15067.436,"end":15075.702,"text":"這其實大家都有這樣的需求啦甚至等下中章投說不定也都有需要嘛好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪委員接下來有請 唉唷 科技設備啊好 接下來有請葛如君委員發言"},{"start":15105.623,"end":15110.084,"text":"謝謝各位 有請書發部林次長好 林次長這裡顯示的是委員好次長好 今天我是要來糾舉一件事情是書發部你們自己可能被騙了而且全國人民都被你們騙了你們的通查網我想要通查詐騙集團可能要先通查一下自己"},{"start":15136.249,"end":15160.164,"text":"在先前呢你們可以看到這個等一下現在這個畫面等一下這個AI現在暫時在播放投影片的時候幫不太了忙這個沒有投出來對不起時間先暫停一下抱歉可能這個數位世界沒有因為他這裡的螢幕跟這裡是不一樣的對有沒有"},{"start":15167.967,"end":15180.556,"text":"對不起喔稍微對我們現在在不好意思在時間先暫停一下我們今天這個議題很重要電腦都緊張了不好意思"},{"start":15206.89,"end":15213.76,"text":"好 可以了當然我不知道等一下可不可以進行但沒關係 謝謝時間可以繼續謝謝召委也謝謝次長"},{"start":15215.868,"end":15239.514,"text":"這件事情通茶網10月14號的時候我質詢完以後速發部火速下架我們本來以為這是一個負責任的態度你們說結束公測下架精進嗎在此跟各位告知大家都被騙了通茶網還在幾千幾萬筆詐騙集團的資料全部還在網路上面甚至我們用戶還可以登入"},{"start":15241.354,"end":15258.309,"text":"這種假性下架的做法到底是在騙誰到底是在騙誰這是誰的疏失所有幾千幾萬筆詐騙集團的圖片、文字現在都還收羅在網路上面在增加詐騙集團的搜尋排序嗎在幫他們抬轎嗎這些網站、網址"},{"start":15261.371,"end":15290.088,"text":"理論上都不應該由速發部去備存還要來幫他們加分這裡面有很多隱私、很多侵權、很多違法甚至情色小說在上面的這些風險結果咧所有的網站內容全部現在是被Google收羅完全都還在我今天為什麼要接我自己的電腦是因為待會還有時間我直接表演給你看全部都是在網路上面每一頁都可以連結"},{"start":15291.645,"end":15298.111,"text":"現在這些你說下架了結果這些網站都還在用的是哪一台主機用的是誰的錢你知道這個網站還在嗎"},{"start":15300.127,"end":15319.846,"text":"是我想委員您是專家這不是專家的問題你們10月13號的新聞稿說已經下架了在開發的時候一定會經過Alpha Test還有Beta TestAlpha Test通常就是現在到底下架了沒然後我們接下來會做公測然後我們現在已經做完公測以後我們10月14號的新聞稿下架了"},{"start":15322.889,"end":15349.131,"text":"現在到底下架了還在嗎如果說委員我們所謂的下架是在Apple App Store還有Google Play上面我們已經下架了現在所有網路資料都還在為什麼不關機為什麼網頁不移除我想你是專家你一定知道就是說在軟體界就是這樣子運作的就是這個App在做進行公測的時候我們已經從App App Store下架以後那原來的使用者還是可以繼續使用而原來這個使用者繼續使用的話"},{"start":15350.712,"end":15365.624,"text":"其實他這些我們現在看到這些詐騙資訊我們是會進行處理網頁全部還可以連您可能沒有搞懂我的意思所有的網頁都還在用戶還可以登入不是APP我說的是網站"},{"start":15367.997,"end":15372.239,"text":"網頁還在沒有關係這會造成什麼問題這會造成什麼問題你們都在幫詐騙集團的網站抬轎加分增加他們的搜尋排訓中國大陸的詐騙網址現在列在你們速發部產業署的網站上面然後呢我們搜尋了什麼"},{"start":15388.086,"end":15394.769,"text":"當沖班長這個詐騙集團已經被金融金管會已經驗證是詐騙集團結果現在搜尋當沖班長會出現速發布的網頁結果前一天晚上搜尋其他真正詐騙集團的網頁排序節節升高"},{"start":15404.372,"end":15420.829,"text":"你們這不是在幫他的SEO抬轎這是什麼我原本講的齁譬如說那個就是有仿冒名人的這個網站那仿那個仿冒既然是仿冒名人名人他的網站當然還會在我還沒講到仿冒名人我講的是詐騙集團的網站被列在你們的官網下面這是一種抬轎的行為喔"},{"start":15423.832,"end":15441.595,"text":"只要列在我們官網上面我們就會通知這些網路廣告平台包含Meta包含Line包含Google通查網已經下架但是列在你們速發部的官網啊還有你剛剛講的侵權的、冒名的問題有些主持人的名字都還在"},{"start":15442.676,"end":15453.607,"text":"還在你們的官網上而且把他們的名字跟這些詐騙字樣連結在一起這樣有沒有侵害民眾的權益呢好再來我們看10月14號你們發了新聞稿開了這些說明說下架了結果咧10月18號"},{"start":15461.374,"end":15489.629,"text":"哇!賴清德總統的網站被YouTube被檢舉你們還幫他改欸還幫他驗證欸結果咧我自己檢舉另外一個假罵我的名字的到現在沒有下文啊這是什麼差別在於這是什麼演算法如果說有人就是仿冒那個委員的身份的話事實上這就是我們這個網站通報查詢網的目的那我們會盡快的要求LINE還有那個Meta還有Google他都跟我們簽了"},{"start":15491.971,"end":15507.047,"text":"市長您不要激動我在講的是這整個網站所有詐騙集團的資料網址、連結、文字、圖片現在通通在速發布的主機裡面"},{"start":15508.608,"end":15536.551,"text":"我沒有在講蘋果我沒有在講大公司是你們的團隊你們的廠商你們的計劃我再講一件事情我已經提了我10月14號說不應該違法收入這些人的圖片你沒有權利結果呢你們的工程師下架以後持續修改就算了他說我把圖片打蒙啊我保護人權啊結果呢程式碼打開來一看原圖還在"},{"start":15538.291,"end":15561.031,"text":"他幹嘛?他是這麼愛這些圖片嗎?原圖還在,他只是用前端特效,這怎麼回事啊?四百多位的公眾人物列入我們的白名單保護機制,我們都會取得他的同意這個不是我們片面跟他,就是取用他的那個照片所以你有取得賴清德總統的同意提供資料?你有取得朱楚文的照片的資料?"},{"start":15561.431,"end":15570.071,"text":"你有提供同意你有取得吳淡如小姐的資料你有取得她的同意你有取得她們的同意把她的名字在速發布的官網跟詐騙兩個字綁在一起"},{"start":15572.133,"end":15596.04,"text":"我們是把那個仿冒名人的詐騙所以我說你們這樣的說法就是在騙下架了還在各位委員報告我們沒有在騙我們是在反詐騙我只問了下架了沒網站不是下架了為什麼還在為什麼還可以登入我們說的下架是從App Store跟Google Play上面下架沒有啊你網站現在是這樣寫的啊你網站現在是寫說下架啊"},{"start":15600.121,"end":15618.908,"text":"結束公測啊,不是嗎?我們現在打開看嘛,結束公測嘛,什麼功能都不能用嘛,結果咧?全部還在啊,我現在每一頁打開,全部是詐騙集團的資訊,全部是詐騙集團的資訊,都還在啊,我現在即時連給你看啊,哪裡下架了?"},{"start":15619.713,"end":15635.799,"text":"市長你說哪裡下架了APP STORE下架了你說公測結束是你說公測結束下架精進是你說通查網會精進改善網頁設計是統一名稱不會宣傳並下架測試網不是嗎這不是還在嗎APP STORE下架了是"},{"start":15640.728,"end":15662.279,"text":"那網頁為什麼還在因為我們這個系統不能停止因為我們每天都在面對詐騙我們這個網路你們這些資料記錄在這裡就是在幫詐騙集團搜尋排序啦我告訴你啦我現在直接列給你看這些全部是齁我們直接看我們搜尋當沖班長底下全部都是詐騙網頁當沖班長詐騙下一頁"},{"start":15666.101,"end":15675.849,"text":"你們現在啊政府部會的網站排序都很高啦速發部速發部就在這裡第二頁你是在幫當沖班長廣告嗎"},{"start":15679.811,"end":15686.775,"text":"你是要幫他抬轎嗎?當沖班長我不知道但是那個我直接告訴你為什麼詐騙集團要這樣做啦你看這些高中的網頁啦他們都被入侵啦這些公家部門的網站對詐騙集團來說是最寶貴的"},{"start":15696.9,"end":15725.405,"text":"因為如果可以跟你們連接在一起它的關鍵字就可以提升排名如果說到我們這個網頁上你就會看到那些就是詐騙我們都會在上面登記就是詐騙我問次長一句話所以這些網頁都要一直留在這裡嗎?色情小說要繼續留嗎?色情小說要繼續留嗎?當中班長要繼續留嗎?這些網頁上面會標示說哪些是詐騙哪些不是詐騙這些資料當然要留在我們網上上這樣民眾才會知道哪些是詐騙哪些不是詐騙你覺得不用下架喔?"},{"start":15726.045,"end":15726.065,"text":"市長,這個"},{"start":15745.11,"end":15771.98,"text":"是有違法疑慮的你們這樣子的說法是有不誠實疑慮的我們已經到地方法院幫你們公正這些頁面的存在也許一個小時之後你們員工機器就關機檔案就刪除了這件事情是錯的請不要用這樣的方式在這裡辯解我們已經幫你們做事情了我們一起來協作好 數位部好好去研究一下"},{"start":15777.418,"end":15802.724,"text":"好 接下來有請賴會員委員發言謝謝主席 有請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳次長還有公平交易委員會李主委"},{"start":15806.042,"end":15830.99,"text":"我想在這裡先跟主席那個請教一下就是我們外委員會大概有幾分鐘執行的時間今天有宣告4加14加1那如果議題沒有講完我還可以再延續原則上不行我這邊會決議好謝謝你好謝謝主席謝謝那在這裡我首先先請教這個我們公平交易委員會那個"},{"start":15832.984,"end":15855.609,"text":"李主委那我想就是說最近就是兩個外送平台合併的一個這個議題其實在我們整體的社會裡頭就是灰灰騰騰那關係到就是民眾跟外送員跟餐廳雙方的一個受害到底是Uber Eats還是就是併購那個Hubenda"},{"start":15857.05,"end":15878.924,"text":"這個對民眾跟外送員跟餐廳三方面的一個受害我想主委你也關心到了這個議題那如果我們從6月份就是外送產業工會的代表他們提出來就是說從這個最早期臺灣每一張這個單子就是我們的外送員可以分紅到110塊到130塊到現在僅剩下30到40塊錢那是過去的四分之一"},{"start":15886.569,"end":15894.053,"text":"可是在調整前面卻沒有跟外送員做好良好的溝通我不知道主委對於外送員權益受損的問題是不是你有達到監督的責任"},{"start":15902.678,"end":15921.897,"text":"在我們審查這兩個外送平台結合當中勞動條件的改變情形也會列入考量也會列入考量那當然是要列入考量那所以就是說合併審查案裡頭的評估那在這裡我要特別跟主委請教一下就是說"},{"start":15922.938,"end":15939.184,"text":"其實戶外的集團向來並沒有非常遵守法規我們知道到現在為止他們還沒有幫外送員就是去保這個勞保我不知道你知不知道這個議題我有知道這個消息你知道了多少"},{"start":15940.618,"end":15954.013,"text":"這個部分有一些訴訟那跟委員回報就是說外送平台他依法該有什麼作為不該有什麼作為我想這如果涉及到影響競爭秩序公平交易法可以處理的問題"},{"start":15955.134,"end":15974.752,"text":"被剝削的問題其實是已經存在了那這個存在了以後就是說我們相關的部門大家就是把它列為就是一個商業的競爭這個會讓我們這些外送員會覺得就是說政府的沒有作為然後對政府失望會不會有這樣的一個感覺"},{"start":15975.333,"end":15995.952,"text":"我想所有的事業在經營業務都要符合競爭秩序所以在經營過程當中如果有影響到競爭秩序維護交易秩序那這個有沒有影響到不幫外送員那個頭保那個勞健保有沒有影響到他的競爭秩序最主要是一個競爭秩序的一個考量好"},{"start":15997.362,"end":16006.257,"text":"顯然主委你沒有很正面的回答這個問題啦齁那在還沒有合併以前就這樣外送會這個惡意的漲價你有沒有去阻止他呢"},{"start":16008.122,"end":16034.182,"text":"各事業去調整他的服務價格喔如果是個別基於他的營運考量去調整價格這個是市場的一個這是市場的一個基準如果是聯合聯合壟斷要去調價那這個在公平法一定有重罰那基本上這兩個兩個平台就是聯合就是他把外送會、服務會都整個一起漲價啦難道你不知道嗎我們知道他有調整價格的情形但是"},{"start":16035.964,"end":16054.854,"text":"如果有這個聯合兩個平台合資共同合要一起漲價這個公平交易法會有處罰的機制如果是個別定價主委我覺得你要去正視這些問題他們就是聯合的漲價這個你查了馬上就非常的清楚會看到這個問題主委你請回交通部長"},{"start":16061.172,"end":16083.87,"text":"部長就是最近我們有公告那個就是外送平台匯率的一個公式其中也有提到就是說在這個平台裡頭我們要等待匯用還有就是樓層匯跟印匯我們都要加收那這個加收的過程包括沒有一定要加收那是得未來的計價可以加入但不一定要加入"},{"start":16084.11,"end":16099.119,"text":"好 不一定要加入那你有沒有就是說在這裡頭我們看得到就是說交通部他你還在那個研討就是有配套的一個措施是不是要收那你多收的這一些費用要給誰"},{"start":16100.04,"end":16119.829,"text":"要分配給誰報告委員交通部在處理的面向只有針對運價的透明化運價透明化也就是說它裡面該有什麼樣的項目那應該怎麼樣的定價運價透明化的公式是這一次交通部要推展的一個部分那針對未來的定價的部分到底怎麼定價是由消費者"},{"start":16120.589,"end":16139.459,"text":"跟那個外送員的工會跟業者平台業者還有地方政府還有這個公路局大家會來共同來擬定跟商討那未來也只會定上線不會有下線那未來的這個收費完之後至少先做到透明啦透明完之後才能討論下一步他們怎麼分配的問題好"},{"start":16140.399,"end":16161.756,"text":"部長透明了以後我們就是說業者跟工會一起來討論還有消基會共同來討論就是說起碼我們把這個價錢是透明的這個是交通部目前我們在擬定這個修法主要是要讓它透明化因為現在很多的外送員的員工在反映說他根本也不知道實際上收了多少運費"},{"start":16162.617,"end":16178.742,"text":"那我作為一個消費者其實我也不太清楚他是真的免運費還是假的免運費那未來我們希望說整個運費定價上面可以清楚的讓消費者知道也可以讓這個外送員都清楚好 謝謝齁主委那個我請回不是請你坐回位子"},{"start":16180.442,"end":16200.173,"text":"那個我想我在這裡顯然就是說你對這一個兩大平台的一個併購變成市長一家獨大對產業真的有利這一個議題前面我在跟你探討的時候你沒有很正向的在回答我啦外送平台它抽成高合併了以後會不會漲絕對漲它的收費絕對漲那合併了以後就是說"},{"start":16206.858,"end":16223.873,"text":"這個對消費者來講的話事實上就是其實是對我們來講是非常的不利的那如果公平會的態度是這樣的一個態度的話顯然沒有辦法做到公平正義所以這個也是我比較擔心的啦所以我就希望就是說"},{"start":16226.014,"end":16254.554,"text":"換任這個外送平台合併然後我們還要看到臺灣的這個餐飲業被這個外資掐住了脖子這個是我們比較擔心的所以我們也希望就是說主委你從2024年初的一個調查到現在其實幾乎我們在公平會裡頭沒有去主導一個真正的這個公平正義這個我想是不是把這個那個調查在一個月內給本席好不好"},{"start":16255.034,"end":16264.278,"text":"好 我們會後再提供給委員好 謝謝 那謝謝主席好 謝謝賴委員接下來有請黃建豪委員發言好 謝謝主席那我們先請交通部陳部長陳部長跟勞動部我們陳次長勞動部陳次長"},{"start":16282.776,"end":16311.855,"text":"那稍後我會請這個公平交易委員會的李主委那主委稍等一下沒關係喔好 李主委等一下還是先在那邊好 等一下部長、次長兩位這個上週我想也有大家談到這個外送運價的問題那當時我們陳部長交通部陳部長說這個東西適宜到各單位包含說可能平台歸經濟部外送員的勞權歸勞動部那餐廳有衛福部那言下之意交通部原則上只負責訂所謂的外送運價的這個準則出來那所以勞動部"},{"start":16312.996,"end":16327.912,"text":"所以這些勞權的部分可能還稍微來請教一下勞動部所以說今天我特別感謝我們召委特別安排這個專報讓大家都能夠過來一起來討論這個議題我們先看一下初步的這個外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看"},{"start":16330.775,"end":16347.918,"text":"從基本運費、業力加收、延遲5分鐘加收、充電加收、樓層費這幾個項目裡面來講哪一個比較像是屬於應該要保障外送員權益的部分因為既然今天要透明嘛我也支持透明但是哪一些部分覺得在未來在規劃的時候哪些應該是屬於這個外送員的部分"},{"start":16349.159,"end":16365.379,"text":"第一個部分就是說剛才陳部長已經特別說明我們交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分至於費用的部分將來還需要各方的利害關係人去做共同的討論但是就勞動部而言我們希望他"},{"start":16366.68,"end":16394.629,"text":"這裡當然是基本的運費會是一個最重要的關鍵就勞動部的角度現在的問題的爭議是在於說它的那個報酬不夠透明它透過演算法其實外界不知道它整個財務的一個結構那如果交通部我們支持交通部這樣的做法之後就會知道運費的基本狀況不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員都會知道一個基本的結構那我們就有利於我們的外送員在未來跟"},{"start":16395.209,"end":16420.644,"text":"跟這個平台業者如何去談那個薪資保障的這樣一個重要的問題好 市長謝謝對 從頭到尾都在講透明的問題但今天透明的問題就是說今天我已經把基本運費訂出來就是假設以這個草案為例因為到時候過了版本一定也會分所謂的細項嘛那我們今天以草案為例如果今天草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費放入夜間加收、放入什麼春節加收、樓神費等等的這些費用透明啦 我把它放進去啦"},{"start":16421.204,"end":16438.511,"text":"那我今天的問題是請教說以勞動部立場如果今天要保障外送員因為你們立場是保障外送員嘛交通部是要定所謂的上位的指導原則說以後這個行業要把這些條件來把列出來那他的目的當然一開始也是希望說我猜測啦可能也是希望說能夠保障外送員的權益嘛"},{"start":16439.071,"end":16453.387,"text":"那今天外送權益的部分當然是歸勞動部的問題所以我今天問說今天這整個運算公司裡面哪一個部分是真正可以保護到也就是說你不能說最後又回到平台再去拆帳嗎那這樣的話就不用立細項了就跟現在一樣了"},{"start":16454.148,"end":16470.929,"text":"就說就我們的外送員的勞工朋友們他們基本上接了單他一定有里程的問題他多少花了多少時間去跑這個單然後他到底是在尖峰、梨峰或者是在重要節日甚至於夜間或者是"},{"start":16472.11,"end":16494.707,"text":"他到的是高樓去公寓或是在平面這個都是會涉及到他的報酬的部分那現在就是說如果我們沒有做過這樣一個透明化的機制就不知道平台業者對於商家對於消費者到底收了多少錢所以就完全不知道說我們的外送員在這裡面合理的報酬應該得到的分支"},{"start":16494.787,"end":16521.582,"text":"那合理的報酬要怎麼說合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到了比如說所謂夜間加收誰去夜間誰是誰是誰會去執行夜間跑外送這個業務的人就是那個人嘛對不會是Uber Eats的老闆嘛不會是福平台的老闆嘛是這個人去跑嘛所以我意思說像比如說夜間加收或我在這邊等我送到這個人家樓下我等了5分鐘的加收的這個費用甚至春節我去跑外送的這個費用"},{"start":16523.183,"end":16551.48,"text":"是屬於誰的?是屬於平台的呢?還是到時候在談的時候勞動部會幫忙?因為我講真的我們一定會協助工會去處理這個議題那現在的狀況就是說包括他的運費的結構加成的項目這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分他才會知道說未來在這個運費透明化的時候各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候工會或者是外送員可以主張自己"},{"start":16552.26,"end":16575.725,"text":"所以包括它這基本的運費多少錢是合理裡面有多少的部分市長對不起運費裡面多少錢給外送人這部分我覺得這當然是需要再去談需要去談判但是我記得說今天你把這個平台我們今天的理想上是要把這個定價所謂定出來運費的內容平台多少外送多少"},{"start":16577.425,"end":16593.51,"text":"餐廳拿多少那個是他們之間商業機制但今天要明定說要用法律去明定出來說夜間加收、延遲加收、春天加收跟樓層費這是用另外訂出來的加收費用那這個加收費用到底我訂出來了今天我作為立法委我訂我們同意這個假設同意這個版本"},{"start":16594.17,"end":16617.84,"text":"那這個加收費我到底是保障?我錢是要給平台呢?還是我加收的?這個這張信在哪裡?如果是要給平台那跟現在就一樣啦所以它是給外送員啦因為這個執行的所以給外送員嘛我意思是說到時候勞動部會去主張只是說目前這樣一個機制它先處理的是透明化至於這裡面相關的額度內容是各方利害關係人到時候要後續去做討論"},{"start":16618.894,"end":16647.156,"text":"市長可以這樣理解 錢多少錢 夜間要不要20元或是延遲要不要5元或是要不要30元這件事情還未定 對不對但是這個項目如果真的放上去的話這個東西是一個外送員的嘛主要貢獻者是外送員是吧到時候所以我說你們會堅持這個立場啦我第一次要這樣因為上禮拜問不到嘛上禮拜部長第一次說我先先把這個項目都訂出來了啊待會錢裡面怎麼分大家再談但是我今天既然勞動部來了我就要問"},{"start":16648.578,"end":16659.858,"text":"運費我先不談光是加收這些執行業務的這些加收的費用你是不是會去保障這個勞工的部分我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這一部分的權益的保障"},{"start":16660.287,"end":16689.104,"text":"好 謝謝這個次長那接下來我們看這個這次大家現在也很關心我們今天特別請公平會來因為當然就是合併的問題因為我想如果按照現在已經有競爭的這個機制的時候Uber的 以Uber來講我想網路上有非常多的案例來看到有會員跟沒會員的價差有會員的人比沒會員的還貴那當然這是他們的商業內容他們的商業機制他們要怎麼跑我們有什麼特別意見因為你願意加入會員你要付多一點錢那個是每個人自由這個部分是"},{"start":16689.764,"end":16716.301,"text":"但是問題是說公平會今天如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場那公平會的角色是什麼你們要怎麼去處理這件事情這個結合之後第一大跟第二大結合將來整個市場結構改變一定很大所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候包括剛才委員關切的外送員的權益店家的權益餐廳的權益這個在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細很審慎去評估"},{"start":16717.682,"end":16740.82,"text":"因為我想看我們看下一張其實各國外送平台應該說這個是很多國家裡面我們的商業區有非常非常多的外送平台但唯獨台灣的確目前是有點寡占市場的狀況即便是亞洲各國、鄰近的各國都有非常多的這個外送平台在存在所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易他們如果真的變成要併購的話"},{"start":16742.361,"end":16771.337,"text":"公民會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情還是就是放任因為我們看到現在他們的確寧願花很多錢去做廣告但是對於這個外送員的這個權益還需要現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障嘛所以如果真的以後併購了全台灣如果只剩一間外送平台業者的時候那消費者等於沒有選擇啦甚至連外送員都沒得選擇連商店都沒得選擇我只能透過這家來外送我沒有競爭優勢了所以我不知道公民會在這件事情講述上你要怎麼去處理這件事情有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵"},{"start":16772.437,"end":16790.087,"text":"這可能經濟部業務啦去鼓勵其他的平台業者也能夠加入這個競爭市場還是就是讓這兩家就併用然後就沒事了我們對於結合申報案件都有一個處理原則那對於這個結合之後競爭這個限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個對世界的評論"},{"start":16790.427,"end":16814.884,"text":"我想這案子也一段時間那你們有檢討的初步的結果嗎目前為止委員會現在文件還沒有完全齊備所以我們等文件齊備以後其實目前我們已經在評估所以我們在臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會也就是非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響那這個都會在我們的評估當中做這個考量我們要提醒公民會啦因為如果現在已經"},{"start":16815.985,"end":16824.9,"text":"按照剛剛你們的解釋我剛有聽一下你說兩大家這個算是所謂的壟斷了嗎兩家這個整個加起來叫獨佔"},{"start":16828.163,"end":16856.736,"text":"市佔率有超過八成以上對 他們是聯合但現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在如果結合的話是有獨佔的這個情況那會不會發生這件事情我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生最後臺灣只剩一間平台業者如果沒有核准這個結合就不會有剛才講一家事業超過市佔率八成的問題所以這還是要看我們最後這個省主席因為就結果論主委你也提到了如果就結果論來講如果兩家合併就直接佔一定超過八成"},{"start":16857.692,"end":16874.913,"text":"阿如果會產生這個結果預判就已經才會產生這個結果你們會同意嗎我們還在看整個結核的因素齁中盤考量那結核他就八成阿不管你怎麼因素他就是怕超過八成除非有第四家出現嘛第三家出現嘛那他有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮阿一定會阿不是嗎"},{"start":16875.934,"end":16896.592,"text":"還是你要用法律還是要拜託交通部或經濟部或勞動部去訂定相關的法律條件說他不能調整價格我們還是要看整個所有的申報的資料各界的意見全盤去斟酌好啦時間也到了但是我要提醒公平會也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法律既然訂出來了那我們就希望說不能只為了讓這些外商只為了賺錢"},{"start":16897.873,"end":16914.175,"text":"然後不管是勞動權益也好或是一般商店的權益也好消費者權益也好全部犧牲掉這是拜託交通部跟公平會在最後這段時間要把這個守住不然剛剛提到了超過八成到底要怎麼競爭沒有人可以競爭了好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":16918.541,"end":16941.686,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員先做一下宣告待會發言到核心存委員截止的時候休息30分鐘補充能源因為待會怕後面的委員因為今天要問的委員非常多到2到2點多的話有時候亂答對大家不利大概是這樣接下來有請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":16947.639,"end":16971.477,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長、公平交易委員會、李鎂主委、還有行政院消費處保護處副處長好 首先我要先跟這個陳世凱學長先請問你個人一個問題您個人支不支持所謂這個兩大交易平台合併"},{"start":16974.127,"end":16988.584,"text":"您個人不代表交通部剛剛聽到這麼多的論述兩個平台合併之後我沒有其他的選擇我當然希望多一些選擇如果合併成一個平台我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話選擇性少一點我會比較不樂見"},{"start":16989.465,"end":17018.821,"text":"好 謝謝公平會我想我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長問過勞動部部長也問過陳世凱先生他們三個都已經有回應他們不太支持他們希望多元的選擇我希望你能夠再一次看到各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了那我想你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見這麼多的一些長官都已經表達他們的意見也希望你能夠聽進去好 這個部分"},{"start":17019.921,"end":17048.621,"text":"好那再來我想回到交通部之前有預告修正這個汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定明確以機車乘運外送平台的運送業務的運價我想大家以為努力有了結果那剛剛我想很多的委員也對於這一次都非常的關心那因為要看這個草案說明會因為肖基會沒有去現場臨時喊卡部長肖基會拒絕開會部長我相信今天很多的委員都有問到"},{"start":17049.701,"end":17068.715,"text":"消息會17日新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促,針對外送運價準則影響消費者勝據,內容有諸多不合理以強烈反對我先請問一下部長,你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣的說明會,你的利益是什麼?"},{"start":17069.901,"end":17084.474,"text":"是良善的嗎?你的利益是為了什麼?我們希望它的運費能夠透明化是為了讓消費者漲價嗎?當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價我只是在處理透明化的部分所以我們支持你做對的事情"},{"start":17085.074,"end":17099.799,"text":"你把這個透明化把它希望能夠呈現出來讓所有的這些跑外送的這些外送員能夠獲得合理的因為有合理運價我們也代表著許多的外送員也要發聲"},{"start":17100.839,"end":17121.318,"text":"不是所有的外送員都要一昧地漲價漲價再漲價讓他們的薪水高高高因為他們也知道只是不斷地漲漲漲最後會嚇跑消費者但另外我要傳達另外一個聲音我也代表著整個小吃、店家這些聲音我本身家裡是做小吃的嘛那剛剛有許多的委員有提到"},{"start":17122.219,"end":17143.926,"text":"小吃或者是店家加入了外送平台它可能增加三成的來客數但是你覺得會增加三成的所謂的利率嗎不會 因為我所了解很像平台業者也抽了蠻多的抽的很多啊我可以跟你講0.5的業績所帶來的利率三成的業績可能0.5的利率"},{"start":17145.946,"end":17165.565,"text":"這所以我們要看到真正的問題當然交通部願意把這個合理運價去透明化我們可以看出到底有沒有外送平台在後面伸出一雙黑手用黑箱的部分來讓整個外送員一手拿外送員的錢一手拿著店家的錢一手還有可能拿到了所謂的消費者的錢"},{"start":17166.306,"end":17193.869,"text":"因為我們看到就比如說我們要訂外送如果他想要再加快速度還要再加個20塊30塊所以今天不管是樓層費這些費用我覺得是合理的使用者付費那正常像我們在立法院嘛我們也都是叫到中心一樓沒有再送上去也沒有再送下地下一樓的你要就是去一樓拿那未來如果有所謂樓層費你使用者付費你增加了10塊20塊可以多一個樓層我想消費者也可以體諒"},{"start":17194.87,"end":17215.752,"text":"那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎"},{"start":17216.753,"end":17234.209,"text":"所以我想理由到底是什麼今天我們都有來我們是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場你們為了消費者我能夠體諒當然消費者的權益我們也要保障但是外送員呢店家呢所以我覺得真正的問題還是在平台"},{"start":17234.91,"end":17257.2,"text":"不夠透明 平台太過黑箱我們應該一起來努力這個部分我希望帶到今天的論述希望大家能夠聽到 可以嗎我們一起為整個外送的產業鏈來努力部長可以嗎可以 我們正在努力好 另外我想問一下部長因為公車不小心發生這些事故的一些案件 層出不窮其中我們對於這個不管是公車評鑑"},{"start":17258.22,"end":17279.928,"text":"或者是今天有討論到的就是遊覽車評鑑制度的一個檢討你知不知道之前2019年就有開始公車在轉彎的時候都會做一個動作我們一直在提倡您知道是什麼動作嗎停等跟指叉確認好 非常棒我們現在不是禮讓行人現在是停讓行人那我們更希望指叉確認能夠更扎實"},{"start":17280.908,"end":17310.148,"text":"那現在就我所去了解我們在看到各個路口公車在行駛的時候其實他真的有到停讓嗎?沒有10台車可能只有5台車那真的有做到指叉確認嗎?10台車可能只有一台車兩台車所以在未來的平建制度能不能將停讓行人跟指叉確認更加落實放入到平建機制甚至要更扎實的來做教育訓練這個部分交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為?"},{"start":17311.168,"end":17312.209,"text":"所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題嗎?"},{"start":17333.744,"end":17358.028,"text":"所以才發生出最近都還是有所謂的公車商人事件所以我們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討我們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強這部分交通部可以允諾我們應該要往這個方向來執行嗎所以這個部分我們當然要加強我希望看到的是更具體的把這些事情做給我們看而不是告訴我們評鑑制度我們會納入我們現在設法在落實當中好不好落實加強力道甚至不惜要開罰是沒有問題好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":17362.816,"end":17366.52,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員接下來有請羅志強委員發言主席 有請交通部長、公平會主委、勞動部次長來 陳部長、李主委、陳次長"},{"start":17389.474,"end":17417.449,"text":"想先請教部長外送平台已經是融入民眾日常生活那事實上政府在監督平台運作和保障消費者外送人權以上就要有更大的責任了那我知道部長你知道現在用外送平台點一份雞排大概要多少錢嗎我看應該都80以上80你太低估了啦我實際測試從立法院研究大樓訂一份雞排要花150元"},{"start":17419.093,"end":17433.642,"text":"一百五十元在現場店家購買是七十五元但是經過平台加價之後就變兩倍那有時候還會遇到一些所謂的那個配送超時、點餐不服的問題"},{"start":17436.292,"end":17451.844,"text":"價格高是一回事品質有沒有到就是另外一回事另外我就要想說現在根據外送平台的營運模式平台是對消費者、店家跟外送員是三方進行抽成"},{"start":17453.866,"end":17469.632,"text":"那首先消費者當然就要支付更高的外送費然後包括現在新的做法又有一些等待計時計加時等待費、樓層費、夜間加成、春節運送那其實成本是一直在往上堆嘛 對不對"},{"start":17470.872,"end":17487.247,"text":"報告委員如果您說的是這次修訂法的那個那個是得不一定會加入但是未來如果大家討論的過程覺得那該加入那到時候再加入現在只有處理第一步就是透明化的部分不過你也知道就是當我們政策其實基本上也是價格引導"},{"start":17488.482,"end":17504.545,"text":"就當你政策有這個方向性的業勢其實通常市場都有跟進的效應這個我想部長應該知道即便是用德那你當然也會開始帶起這個所謂的目前因為在預告期如果大家認為那個應該拿掉其實是可以拿掉的那個不是問題"},{"start":17505.086,"end":17529.867,"text":"第一步我們要達成的是透明化的我先講有些部分我也沒反對啦是必須講但我只是說我比較關切的是說你加了這些東西我們的那個立法的出發點或是我們政策的出發點在哪裡那有沒有辦法落實這個政策出來比方說我們就覺得說外送員應該要多保障一點嘛那有一些加計的費用那你就要有能夠確保保證我們加這些費用它是"},{"start":17531.192,"end":17545.182,"text":"也外送員的不是最後又變成是平台又抽成抽去這應該是部長瞭解我的用意其實在店家方面其實很多店家表示平台抽成比例已經攀升到32到38"},{"start":17548.024,"end":17567.881,"text":"好然後呢如果加上我們剛剛講的還有些什麼上架費啊平台使用費啊出單機費用啊那加上一些這些上漲的壓力的話那當然店家壓力就很大嘛所以他們就有價格上漲的壓力就有可能轉嫁給消費者嘛那這是第一個要考量的層面那第二個就是說我想請問就是說"},{"start":17569.682,"end":17583.645,"text":"目前我們各個部會針對平台的抽成比例有沒有具體的措施或做法避免說店家、消費者、外送員承受不合理的成本轉嫁"},{"start":17585.545,"end":17612.3,"text":"報告委員在交通部的部分只有針對運價來做制定在這個部分目前我們希望先推第一步就是透明化的部分那再來就是說剛剛所講的增加成本或漲價目前並沒有這樣子的議題因為目前並沒有討論一定會漲價而且我們到時候訂定的那個運價我們是訂上限上限意思是什麼呢它可以往下它要用免運費也OK平台業者願意做一個優惠做到免運費也是可以接受的"},{"start":17612.76,"end":17639.811,"text":"我們只是訂上限不要超過這個上限那至於分配的部分那就不是由交通部這邊來管理好那哪些部會分配的部分都沒有沒有管理單位跟我們報告就是現在這個議題對勞動部來講我們關心的是這些外送員的報酬是不是合理能夠做保障那我就講外送員好了所以以目前來看就是因為平台的他的演算法不夠透明所以"},{"start":17640.231,"end":17664.654,"text":"外送員也不知道他拿到的價格是不是合理那以過去的經驗來看陸續一直都在調降所以這是一個不好的方式所以我們也感謝交通部在運費方面如果有一個公開透明的機制未來在這一方面外送員包括工會就比較知道說他整個平台業者所收取的費用的結構跟內容是什麼那我們才有辦法透過外送員"},{"start":17665.695,"end":17688.424,"text":"的工會還有協助外送員來爭取他們的權益把他的基本的報酬能夠獲得到一定程度的保障我覺得次長的回答就很好實際上這就是我們各個部門都要一起來做的像交通部做的前等於是前段對不對你前段定價出來如果透明化做得好對不對然後後段針對外送員的話我們在"},{"start":17689.524,"end":17713.024,"text":"透明化的這個基礎之上的話就能夠多一點就能進到分配的部分啦那當然另外公平會就是大家最關切的說那你要不要准他們那個結合嘛這是三方都要去注意的事情好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝羅委員好 接下來有請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":17720.748,"end":17731.742,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請我們的李主委好 公平會李主委也請我們的勞動部勞動部陳次長好 主委"},{"start":17739.588,"end":17766.691,"text":"其實我們這次兩代外送平台業者的結合受到很多的矚目如果說你今天立法院多次的委員會其實絕大部分的委員事實上都不贊成合併因為現在不管對消費者權益的保障或者是對於外送員的保障事實上都沒有辦法做確定而且我們也有一些官員剛才我聽到我們的交通部長他是用比較婉轉的方式"},{"start":17767.392,"end":17771.514,"text":"那我直接說在這個未還委員會的時候我有直接問我們的勞動部部長他非常明確的說他反對當然不是他個人反對而是勞動部反對而且他說"},{"start":17786.923,"end":17803.455,"text":"勞動部也發文給公平會表達反對意見因為最主要就是說公會提出的幾個訴求外送平台根本完全沒有辦法達成共識所以不應該進入審查的程序這個次長我講的沒有錯嘛"},{"start":17805.436,"end":17806.658,"text":"那在這樣的一個狀況之下請問一下公平會還要審查下去嗎因為我記得你在經濟委員會回答委員的時候說還要在11月8號再給他們讓他們補件"},{"start":17820.333,"end":17845.952,"text":"所以如果按照現在程序大家對這個合併案有這麼大的疑慮而且都認定這個是真的有獨佔而且也沒有辦法我剛剛講沒有辦法對消費者對外送員提出任何的保障的狀況之下你們還要繼續的審下去嗎我想回報委員公平會是委員制所有的申報案件都要經過委員會去決議"},{"start":17848.786,"end":17863.907,"text":"所以既然有這樣的一個申報案件我們文件齊備之後就要進入委員會去審查所以現在我那他之前就是文件不齊備啊你們還要讓他補件不是嗎所有的申報案件都會有補齊文件的問題那我們"},{"start":17866.229,"end":17871.611,"text":"不只是這個案件,所有案件都有補件的問題現在有一個問題,那請問一下按照你們這個程序,你什麼時候做完什麼時候要給他準博?我們要看他文件準備的情形"},{"start":17882.815,"end":17909.657,"text":"資料越齊備我們的審查的品質就會越高進入委員會所以你現在沒有期限就是讓他慢慢的準備他的資料不會是慢慢給他準備主委你任期什麼時候屆滿主委你的任期什麼時候屆滿我的任期到今年1月31號明年啦明年抱歉明年1月31號所以當你離開之前能夠確定這個案子能不能有一個結論嗎"},{"start":17912.011,"end":17920.178,"text":"我們還是要看這個文件準備的情形還有委員會討論的情形即便進度委員會也有討論的程序而這樣的程序我剛剛講包含勞動部都已經非常明確的表達反對因為這很重要嘛 對不對交通部看起來也是反對嘛然後我們各委員大部分都是反對好那在這樣的狀況之下我為什麼會特別提到"},{"start":17939.053,"end":17963.54,"text":"因為不要這個這麼重大的一個產業的併購你很容易把它變成又是一些政治性的操作因為你們1月底也不只你嘛你們有好幾個委員都到期嘛 屆滿嘛然後又再說因為我們現在有一個問題時間到的時候而沒有做出任何準博他就"},{"start":17966.127,"end":17994.508,"text":"就是通過了沒有意義就表示它可以進行結合公平會從來不會有正規交交那你現在為什麼你們還要好幾個月為什麼你到1月31號還要好幾個月你不能在你的任期屆滿之前把它決定起來嗎我們是委員會制我必須要看整個委員會討論那你們就開委員會啊我的意思委員尤其主委包含副主委都在明年1月"},{"start":17995.569,"end":18001.852,"text":"的屆滿但是這件案子你們如果要拖拖然後呢坐在公民會的人事那你們立法院審不審因為我們也有去審查的一個一個壓力嘛對不對然後你就變成說"},{"start":18012.398,"end":18035.886,"text":"你看最後假釋都沒有把它駁回的話它就自然的變成的成立我們還是依據我們的處理原則依法在處理所以啊主委能不能 這個很容易做的事情嘛你這一屆應該做完的事情你為什麼要拖到下一屆呢我不懂欸我們是委員會制不是首長制"},{"start":18037.335,"end":18043.96,"text":"你們委員會4個委員耶你們7個委員4個委員屆滿耶你們委員7個委員能不能有點責任感啊還在拖這個事情其實大家已經問很多次了你都用這樣做擋箭牌所以你們是怎麼樣想要讓他過是不是"},{"start":18058.71,"end":18062.854,"text":"也無視於別勞動部的反對合併的意見嗎我們當然應該依法但是你可以用技術上的方式幫助他所以我要講的是請我們的公民會"},{"start":18075.665,"end":18087.8,"text":"7位委員負起責任來尤其4位委員都要任其屆滿不要把這一屆該做的事情去把它繼續的去延後有些技術上的問題讓它變成本來大家都有意見最後"},{"start":18092.045,"end":18092.625,"text":"好 謝謝王委員"},{"start":18115.476,"end":18123.323,"text":"其實建買之前要處理這個蠻卑微的要求欸我不知道欸好 接下來請何新淳委員發言好 謝謝昭偉我們請陳世凱部長跟這個陳部長還有公平會主委李主委"},{"start":18141.516,"end":18167.395,"text":"部長好、主委好我再強調一次再公開表示一次我堅決反對兩大外送平台合併我在上次的總質詢裡面也跟卓榮泰卓院長也表示過那我必須說我一開始在上一次的交通委員會裡面我就要求我們交通部第一個"},{"start":18168.649,"end":18183.283,"text":"也是我質詢讓大家知道說原來我們的外送這個業者是登記在交通部的這個所謂的汽車運輸業的客貨運的這樣子的一個象象"},{"start":18184.911,"end":18207.306,"text":"所以我們推動什麼推動外送平台定費必須透明化所以剛剛陳世凱部長也講我們現在在訂這個規則是讓它透明化那透明化之後呢接下來我們就要要求什麼合理化保障各方權益之下的合理化那我覺得公平會主委你也不要一直說你們只是依法來行事我認為你應該勇於認識為什麼呢因為這個"},{"start":18214.931,"end":18219.294,"text":"2016 UberEats進軍台灣這十幾年來都沒有人理欸就任由他在這個市場上他說要漲就漲他說要怎麼樣就怎麼樣那外送員的這個權益呢就任由平台的糟蹋"},{"start":18232.751,"end":18242.214,"text":"任何問題都是平台說了算那消費者也只能被動的也只能無奈的承受他要漲就漲、要怎樣就怎樣所以運費十幾年來沒有人管理那現在交通部願意承擔要來管"},{"start":18250.037,"end":18264.004,"text":"那我覺得各方的保障如何就定位就是一個最重要的議題囉就如同剛剛今天很多委員都提到這件事情接下來下一頁所以我現在就要問我們陳部長先問陳部長在我們交通部訂的這個規則裡面這個費率的規則裡面準則啦你們新增了八條之一嘛那我就要問囉"},{"start":18275.896,"end":18281.6,"text":"我們外送平台現在外送是用兩輪的啦騎摩托車的啦那過去你們這個汽車運輸業客貨運的運價準則呢是管四輪的啦那用兩輪的跟比照四輪的這個計算成本這個是怎麼來比較合理嗎欸我不知道這你要來適宜喔第二個我們雖然說他的運費"},{"start":18301.474,"end":18317.887,"text":"透明很重要費率的如何的計算基礎也很重要我舉一個例子在你們新增了這個準則八條之一之後呢你們說依據第五條公示中的每車公里什麼合理成本我就要提出一些一般人都在問的"},{"start":18322.326,"end":18327.468,"text":"這個包括油料、燃料、輪胎、車輛折舊、修車、業務、薪資我跟你講,外送平台的外送員車是外送員的車對,沒錯摩托車是你的摩托車摩托車的這個"},{"start":18344.313,"end":18360.191,"text":"維護的成本誰在負擔?外送員對 折舊的成本誰在負擔?外送員那薪資 抱歉 外送員接單不宜嘛所以他薪資怎麼有一個合理的一個計算準則或者是有一個平均的準則"},{"start":18362.346,"end":18383.097,"text":"這數字我不知道你們是怎麼用這樣子所謂的合理成本因為這些每一點都是這個外送平台的營業秘密或者是這些資料都在這個每一個外送員的身上而且每一個外送員他所擔的成本跟付出是不一樣的那請問一下你們的手上的資料到底哪裡來呢又何依據來做這個運費的這個"},{"start":18386.894,"end":18413.636,"text":"準則保護委員四輪的跟兩輪當然都不一樣是啊那四輪的當然車型也不一定都一樣都不一樣 外送也沒有 車型也不一樣那只能抓一個平均值當時四輪是這樣訂那未來兩輪當然也是一樣同樣的準則就是說大家的摩托車價格不一定一樣但我們抓一個中間點或是一個平均值那輪胎大家用的品質也不一樣所以各種方式的計算在機車尤其是兩輪的部分我們要重新來計算"},{"start":18414.917,"end":18439.358,"text":"我們現在第一步先確定說有要透明化這件事要透明化第二步就是來開始計算它的成本大概是在哪裡這個就是大家在問的嘛因為我跟你講各方的權益都要受保障那各方的權益都要受保障的時候我剛剛講的嘛你如果你訂了那個運費的基本的這個依據讓人家有問號的時候或者是你解釋不清楚的時候"},{"start":18440.699,"end":18448.707,"text":"那當然大家就會有質疑嘛是不是所以才問大家現在連基本費基本費電機在哪裡我剛剛講的那些細項啊那續承費、等待費、樓層費、夜間春節加成等等我覺得這個都要一頁的去說清楚而且要合理的告訴大家你是怎麼訂出來的"},{"start":18459.657,"end":18486.329,"text":"委員您這樣說非常的正確啦齁其實我的目標是第一步先處理運費的透明化那至於剛剛在講的樓層費或等待費這些是由外送員工會他們提出來的但未來的討論我們是由五方來討論所以這些不一定會放進去那個是德啦可以討論但是不一定會放進去我知道但是雖然是德可以討論但是有一個德就有一個依據可以討論有這個可以討論未來就會形成這個要收費的標準嘛那"},{"start":18486.969,"end":18506.502,"text":"要收費的合理我相信大家都可以接受那我們現在大部分的人是在於那個合理到底是什麼才叫做合理所以我覺得這個我們主管機關也必須要有責任來去擔起說除了透明化之後那個合理的運費到底是如何計算出來"},{"start":18507.643,"end":18533.573,"text":"收費合理這是大家最關心的一件事而且這個收費合理包括剛剛很多委員提到的平台跟店家該怎麼收費是合理的那平台跟消費者該怎麼收費是合理的那外送員呢他的這個薪資從平台得到的薪資什麼是合理的這個就是兼顧小商家外送員跟消費者我們的初衷就是在這裡不是嗎部長"},{"start":18534.673,"end":18557.21,"text":"沒錯嘛對不對那甚至我還關心到如果偏遠地區呢對不對偏遠地區那又該如何去計價呢那如何才叫做合理那第三個到時候的計價模式消費者然後外送員平台再加上地方政府加上地方政府也就是說每一個地區地方政府也會加入所以每個地區的計價方式可能會不一樣"},{"start":18558.208,"end":18566.61,"text":"所以就因地制宜那天香更要因地制宜嘛對不對第三點就關係到公平會、理事會啦我上次在總諮詢就提出這個問題囉外送平台兩大外送平台要合併案到現在你給他11月8號之前要他補件那如果11月8號他還是不補件沒有補期權好你就沒有審"},{"start":18579.994,"end":18599.707,"text":"沒有審呢那到時候呢等到了你們的人事權你明年1月要到任還有其他3個委員要到任總共就有4個委員要到任那到時候如果到明年1月之前他們補件還沒有完成沒有承讓沒有承讓沒有辦法審所以他就沒有合併可是他也有可能等到你們的人事"},{"start":18601.168,"end":18626.326,"text":"這個人事的這個到任之後呢他在送件,送件了之後呢沒有委員可以審那他會不會變相的就就地合併成功文件齊備以後才開始算審查期間那我們的委員目前編制是7位如果有請假或是缺位等等情形我們是依現有的現有的這個委員數來做現有的委員數如果是叫做"},{"start":18627.407,"end":18629.389,"text":"相對的少數那這個審查有沒有合法這是一個大家的問題那最後我還必須要提醒你們希望大家多聽多方的意見這個交通部在訂定這個費率的時候不管是我要再強調店家、外送員跟消費者"},{"start":18644.747,"end":18672.227,"text":"多方的意見我們都要傾聽而且要適時的雖然你們已經在預告了該調整就調整該因地制宜就因地制宜那主委我再講一次我堅決反對兩大外送平台合併壟斷台灣的市場這個對國人、對消費者、對外送員、對店家任何一方都是不利的、都是不好的所以主委請你一定要趕快趕快地放在心上"},{"start":18673.305,"end":18679.488,"text":"很多人大部分的人都反對兩大外送平台合併的好不好好以上謝謝好謝謝何委員我們現在休息30分鐘下午2點10分繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":18697.591,"end":18697.912,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18721.51,"end":18730.555,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":18732.467,"end":18736.469,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":18760.623,"end":18781.152,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":18781.152,"end":18811.135,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":18813.629,"end":18830.563,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":18845.921,"end":18847.443,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18862.261,"end":18867.445,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":18895.214,"end":18895.994,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18929.172,"end":18941.439,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":18964.119,"end":18981.051,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18991.297,"end":18995.343,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19013.08,"end":19032.392,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19035.52,"end":19063.268,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19067.585,"end":19090.839,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19097.103,"end":19108.773,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19127.142,"end":19147.864,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19152.637,"end":19179.235,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":19179.955,"end":19197.939,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19209.699,"end":19226.668,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19228.553,"end":19246.553,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19255.459,"end":19266.593,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19277.619,"end":19303.626,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19305.278,"end":19307.499,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19338.029,"end":19339.378,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19355.538,"end":19379.119,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19385.23,"end":19394.359,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19412.065,"end":19424.467,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19444.061,"end":19446.565,"text":"主席"},{"start":19455.196,"end":19477.107,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19487.295,"end":19515.48,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19523.046,"end":19545.196,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19550.708,"end":19578.524,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":19579.645,"end":19580.446,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":19620.014,"end":19630.924,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19634.381,"end":19649.273,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19656.732,"end":19672.103,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19691.154,"end":19702.763,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19712.537,"end":19719.868,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19723.131,"end":19742.119,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19754.207,"end":19758.833,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19763.712,"end":19788.609,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19814.687,"end":19820.572,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19828.489,"end":19849.343,"text":"公平交易委員會主任"},{"start":19856.408,"end":19871.453,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19874.445,"end":19897.142,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19923.819,"end":19928.042,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19944.567,"end":19958.735,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19967.433,"end":19983.977,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19996.753,"end":20002.077,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20040.013,"end":20041.354,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":20044.036,"end":20067.739,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":20071.962,"end":20073.283,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":20096.458,"end":20096.839,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20122.329,"end":20151.578,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":20155.708,"end":20176.288,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":20190.978,"end":20198.984,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":20208.697,"end":20214.2,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":20238.311,"end":20240.835,"text":"主席"},{"start":20254.479,"end":20255.979,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":20278.667,"end":20279.287,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20302.066,"end":20302.486,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20324.633,"end":20344.258,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":20344.258,"end":20372.602,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":20386.54,"end":20392.312,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20416.845,"end":20418.271,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20440.503,"end":20457.348,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20495.719,"end":20508.444,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20552.032,"end":20552.252,"text":"現在我們繼續開會"},{"start":20556.257,"end":20580.487,"text":"不過開會之前先建議一下那個公平會的李主委啊不好意思啊因為平常我是建議一下因為剛剛整個早上您的回答是蠻認真的可是因為你可控的項目我覺得你還是要負責任的回答譬如說人家來你這邊申請不管是申請建造、申請併供、申請什麼他這個申請案你給他的回答是你壓到幾號"},{"start":20582.068,"end":20605.15,"text":"你不可能說不知道不可控的委員戰爭反對不可控理解可是因為你們的作業你要給這個申請的單位因為他如果不提供就是一定一個月內不提供那就謝謝資料不足你們一樣開會就是資料不足所以我是建議說你們現在補件到什麼時間啊給他補件的時間給他"},{"start":20610.555,"end":20611.295,"text":"有請廖偉祥委員廖偉祥委員不在"},{"start":20638.361,"end":20659.615,"text":"黃國昌委員黃國昌黃國昌委員不在接下來請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席本席想邀請交通部長跟公平會主委好陳部長、李主委"},{"start":20668.235,"end":20684.623,"text":"謝謝兩位 我們繼續來討論外送平台的運費那麼大家都非常的期待它這個公司是能夠透明化所以因此到目前為止交通部日前預告修正的這個汽車運輸業管理規則 汽車運輸業"},{"start":20687.984,"end":20710.399,"text":"客運運費的運價準則其中最重要的今天大家都非常關心的也就是外送平台的新興行業運價適用規定你們現在是在預告當中作為未來業者在收取運費的依據以及每一筆"},{"start":20714.182,"end":20725.351,"text":"訂單運費並依照每車公里基本運價接運送距離計算其中包含起程費、續程費、得以加計等待費、各個樓層"},{"start":20732.997,"end":20751.864,"text":"樓層費還有夜間加急的運費以及春節運費大概你們目前所預告的是如此所以交通部你們也多方的跟業者跟小保官跟外送平台工會多方的去研討那麼到目前為止外界有說要以60塊為基準"},{"start":20754.865,"end":20777.072,"text":"但是你們立即否決你們立即聲明說還沒有還沒有這回事外送員工會的期待你們馬上說了你們馬上說了你們否認了說還沒有還沒有定案這個我們就是希望這個理性的去討論那請教現在的方向現在的方向會漲價嗎這第一個那你們費率大概討論會什麼時候出來"},{"start":20783.563,"end":20801.421,"text":"報告委員當然我們現在正在那個預告期所以我們的法制的過程都還沒完備所以什麼時候可以有這個所以這個預告非常重要就是大家有任何意見趕快再提出來但是坊間已經有給你一個數字那當然你們否決了我能夠跟委員報告的是說方向"},{"start":20802.242,"end":20814.245,"text":"方向第一個我早上有提過第一個我們是朝透明化的方向來走先把公式先制定出來這是第一個方向第二個方向不一定會漲價漲價是一個假議題不一定會漲價漲價是一個假議題因為到時候即便是漲價是一個假議題"},{"start":20820.227,"end":20842.977,"text":"對即便是有一個公示公示出來了之後設定的是叫做上限是上限而且沒有下限當沒有下限的狀況底下到時候的業者要收多少費用是在我們上限以下都可以所以現在的免運費還是可以做他甚至可以直接做到免運費這都是他的優惠他的權利所以你是訂一個這個天花板對天花板只有天花板"},{"start":20843.237,"end":20871.702,"text":"所以這個也就是說過去我們外送的費用呢它多數是以供需以供需去定價它有尖峰用餐的時間那尖峰用餐它會比較高那離峰的時候有優惠這個價格那再請教我們訂定的費率會取消優惠價格嗎不會我們只會訂上限所以下限即便是免運費運費算零都是可以接受的"},{"start":20872.102,"end":20883.532,"text":"好 預問算明都是可以接受那麼業者會不會我們是緊張也就是你如果說這個價格的方面會不會轉送到運價轉送到消費者"},{"start":20887.678,"end":20915.047,"text":"目前的審查的機制我們是五方包含了消費者我們大概是找消機會另外就是外送員工會還有平台業者我們也會找還有就是地方政府因為每個地方要因地制宜那最後才是交通部的代表也會參與我們會最後一起來制定那這個部分當然運費的部分對於一個消費者來說他要買一個東西要運然後要製作製作的費用當然是消費者要吸收"},{"start":20915.507,"end":20940.133,"text":"那運費也會由消費者來吸收但問題是我們這次訂的是上限不會讓消費者讓他有超過上限的一個運費但往下是沒有問題的所以消費者的權益我們也可以保障當運價沒有透明的時候消費者到底被收了多少運價其實消費者不曉得所以我們希望透過透明的過程當中保障消費者的權益"},{"start":20940.373,"end":20960.106,"text":"所以如果依照部長你現在的回答是希望能夠達到五贏的這個政策這是理想那所以再請教你們預告之後接下來動作怎麼做什麼時間可以把這個方案正式公告我們現在正在收攏各方的意見你們的時程"},{"start":20961.423,"end":20972.167,"text":"當大家的意見比較有一個共識的時候大概我們就可以往法制化的方向來推進但是這個時程我沒有辦法在這邊跟委員報告因為各方的意見我們還在收攏現在都還不知道你收攏也會有時間啊我到底時間要訂多久啊怎麼會沒有時間表呢"},{"start":20979.75,"end":20996.963,"text":"我們希望能夠盡快但是所謂的盡快比如說我們做任何事情你一定有你的KPI指數啊我收容時間一個月、兩個月、三個月接下來我們法制化我預計要多久因為這個已經是社會面向非常需求每天生活必須用到的"},{"start":20997.363,"end":20999.124,"text":"本集了解內容也就是希望要得到我們就誠如剛剛主席所說的我們一定要知道你的時間點"},{"start":21018.476,"end":21041.008,"text":"你要有一個指標我什麼時候要做什麼我什麼時候要做什麼你不能無限期呀因為這是民眾每一天都會都會都會touch到的部長立法院的委員們大家都很關心都希望趕快往前推進那我們的方向也是希望趕快往前推進你的方向你一定要有制定一個時間點嘛我們剛才在講的消費者也有共識來部長"},{"start":21044.425,"end":21063.034,"text":"請聽清楚大家都在討論因為你現在是預告所以你預告你會有多久時間收集資料資料收集好你要朝向法治化你一定有一個時程表嘛你不能從早上我從早上聽到現在都沒有答案啊 對不對我們不是問你多少錢"},{"start":21064.915,"end":21068.558,"text":"比例多少不是我們只要你行政部門的時間點如果連時間點都沒有那我們今天整天都白問的"},{"start":21074.728,"end":21101.39,"text":"請說明是 跟我們報告預告期間就是說各方的意見的話其實我們收容了所以已經定在下週三10月34號就是把就是說相關的包括這個消基會收容的資料對對對 再做整理那因為整理之後就是說當然因為可能就是要達成共識跟我們原來預設的透明化的目標所以就是說比如說在下週三沒有達成這些共識哪些的起義的課題我們會繼續再做一個開會再做一個確認"},{"start":21103.756,"end":21104.617,"text":"請政府有責任的去規劃"},{"start":21119.229,"end":21138.248,"text":"你10月30我們今天聽到這個聲音預告就是到10月30收集這些資料你們再下一個動作對不對那你請把你們你們接下來要怎麼做的時程也請一份資料給本席好嗎你們去預估一下所以接下來公平會在後面來請你往前"},{"start":21139.91,"end":21164.748,"text":"剛剛交通部長說了他們要訂一個系列在這邊那針對於這個兩大我們的這個烏貝伊跟忽編達那麼是不是會同意現在是在審議中那是不是會同意合併我們在經濟委員會也討論過了很多次所以本席要請教這一段時間努力來你們現在的進度"},{"start":21166.849,"end":21185.091,"text":"到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾會不會合因為民眾所怕的也就是萬一如果怪獸產生的時候那只有一家只有一家他定的價格那沒有人有辦法去控管的時候那民眾會"},{"start":21186.993,"end":21199.618,"text":"達到五輸的這個階段所以要請教你們目前什麼時候可以告訴社會大眾我跟委員說明一下目前是在一個補件的階段那如果補件他補件你的對內在什麼時候補件目前業者我們"},{"start":21204.028,"end":21228.127,"text":"一個月的備奈是什麼時候就是下個月11月8號請他們補件那接下來呢那我們看他這個補件的情形如何如果文件齊備我們就開始算這個審查的期間那文件齊備會再進一步的從這個案子每一方都非常的關心消費者非常的害怕"},{"start":21231.631,"end":21232.054,"text":"如果被這個壟斷"},{"start":21234.778,"end":21261.184,"text":"外送平台人員的一個基本權益這是我們一定要捍衛的一定要捍衛的因為他們太辛苦了但是在這樣的一個情況之下你到底11月8號是你收集請他們補件那你預計會在什麼時候告訴社會大眾到底同意不同意跟委員說明我們是委員會制的所以文件期備會進入委員會去討論"},{"start":21263.465,"end":21284.559,"text":"當然不要跟我講過程你一個社會重大關注的議題你總是不能無限期吧主委 如果以我的認知你是明年1月份任期到吧是不是 我的任期到1月底對啊 那明年的1月底嘛那你會不會在你的任期內去完成"},{"start":21286.445,"end":21315.785,"text":"告訴社會大眾到底同意不同意當然是合一致啊但是你要最終啊你也不能無限期啊這麼重大的一件事情一定要經過委員會充分的討論做出事切的決定當然當然我們沒有辦法去干涉這個內容但是我們要講社會的需求給主委你了解我想我們委員也都了解社會對這個案件的關切那我想責務龐大那既然委員都了解社會的關切那更能夠有積極的腳步啊"},{"start":21316.766,"end":21321.437,"text":"那我期盼能夠在你的任內去告訴社會大眾你們的經過委員會的決議是什麼"},{"start":21327.819,"end":21350.335,"text":"朝這個方向努力好嗎這個案件我們一定會審慎能快就快這是我們向來對於人民的申報結合案因為我們深怕店家、消費者以及外送員他只能夠被動的面對獨佔者所提出的條件那就是陳如本席所說的是武術"},{"start":21351.636,"end":21373.327,"text":"台灣社會不應當有這樣的現象所以我再一次強調因為我覺得我們政府做事情總是要有一個時間點那也不能無限期所以請你們積極我希望在你的任內去完成告訴社會大眾到底這個答案是什麼讓大家安心好不好因為我們現在消費者也很緊張店家也很緊張平台也緊張啊所以 主委"},{"start":21381.636,"end":21397.246,"text":"你的看法呢我想這個案子確實從兩家事業向公平會遞件申報以來各界都非常關切我們對這些其實都了解那在這個程序上文件齊備了該當怎麼處理一定會"},{"start":21401.234,"end":21418.648,"text":"審慎的去處理那在時程上呢因為我們是委員會制度不是首長制我沒有辦法預見當將來委員會討論的情形會是什麼情況情形我們不用我們也不予干預我請你積極開會處理好不好這一部分我們會積極處理好 趕快加油好 謝謝梁委員"},{"start":21428.533,"end":21430.354,"text":"接下來有請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在接下來有請黃婕委員發言"},{"start":21463.339,"end":21472.497,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請公平會李主委好李主委李主委好好打拜託"},{"start":21476.813,"end":21490.52,"text":"好 謝謝主席的提醒啊這其實這個我們在經濟委員會很多委員會都已經關心過了因為其實上一次就是在經濟委員會大家都提醒說生怕當兩家合併之後變成一個外送巨獸會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況"},{"start":21494.742,"end":21523.801,"text":"那我在這邊也再具體建議啦我今天不會跟你講說什麼運費到底要多少很明確的給大家這樣的指引但我希望談一個比較上位的政策因為接下來你們要補件嘛請他們補件11月8號之前補件之後要開始審查那審查的基準是什麼我在這邊給一些具體的建議因為其實現在我非常關心外送員權益的問題那外送員他們其實的工會也有提了幾大訴求那我相信大家也都知道那我這邊"},{"start":21525.022,"end":21545.034,"text":"給一個例子因為其實在2021年西班牙他們有直接公佈一個相關的法律他們說外送的平台應該要定期的提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟勞僱關係有影響的數學公式讓大家知道這樣子這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性"},{"start":21545.954,"end":21568.275,"text":"這什麼意思呢?也就是說在這個其實現在這個數位平台這兩家平台裡面有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算然後包括他要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制就是到底撥多少比例給外送員然後包括派單的建議什麼的然後還有你去哪邊先領單這些其實他都是自己說用一個系統運算告訴你"},{"start":21569.036,"end":21593.513,"text":"可是這些不透明的情況下其實外送員是毫無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障所以剛剛其實很多委員都講了透明化非常重要那這個其實國外不管是西班牙還是法國其實他們都直接寫進法令然後也都有相關具體的指引了就是告訴你說你就是這些公式透明化之後不只是外送員看得到消費者也看得到"},{"start":21594.153,"end":21615.53,"text":"大家都可以知道說我大概就是在這樣子公平的基準之下才不會有人因為資訊的不透明資訊的不對等然後被剝削所以現在接下來在你們補件以及接下來的審查意見當中我希望可以有這麼具體的就是讓大家知道包括現在消費者很擔心說哇是不是真的要變60塊以上"},{"start":21617.071,"end":21643.911,"text":"然後包括外送員也很擔心說好其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到因為獎薪薪酬的制度包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢全部都被平台吃掉店家更擔心他們從頭到尾都覺得我已經很辛苦了我在那邊成本都不夠付結果從頭到尾都只有平台在賺這個都是各方現在的擔心所以我希望你們接下來的審查可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查可以嗎"},{"start":21644.818,"end":21666.56,"text":"我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件"},{"start":21667.06,"end":21687.488,"text":"那所以這個還是要看我們將來委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向是那其實我有去看你們公平會的就是第一次的審查結果然後要求他們補件那我在這邊再提一個概念就是數位壟斷的風險這其實在美國有就是11個州他們聯合向這個聯邦政府提起訴訟要求因為後來Google敗訴了"},{"start":21690.209,"end":21715.021,"text":"還有他們說Google壟斷了數位的平台那這種數位壟斷的情況其實在各個國家也都在發生當一個數位平台或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨佔的時候像如果這兩家加起來是佔率超過八成那所有全部都他們掌控啊不管你的演算法要怎麼算包括你廣告怎麼投放包括你怎麼派單全部都是他們一家決定所以接下來你們必須要注重的是這種數位壟斷的問題"},{"start":21717.142,"end":21722.647,"text":"那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們"},{"start":21724.485,"end":21748.688,"text":"把持的權力是這麼大你們可能就是覺得就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看所以我希望的是會不會變成一個獨佔是也是我們在審這個結額案件很重要的考量因素是對所以我希望在這邊具體的建議啦接下來可能造成數位壟斷的情況包括他可能已經佔據所有市場版面然後廣告投放"},{"start":21749.008,"end":21775.709,"text":"甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了"},{"start":21776.289,"end":21804.24,"text":"那這是非常嚴重的一個風險所以我希望說接下來在個資保護上面雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關但是這個審查原則裡面其實跟所有使用者息息相關那這個也是我在這邊提醒也希望呼籲接下來在審查所有的審查委員在執行的時候務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷"},{"start":21805.12,"end":21815.262,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那就希望如所有委員建議的這些原則之外時程也要拉出來好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":21819.716,"end":21842.553,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員接下來有請張家俊委員張家俊 張家俊委員不在林楚英委員 林楚英 林楚英委員不在陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷 陳冠廷委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員"},{"start":21845.675,"end":21864.851,"text":"政政前委員不在高金素梅委員高金素梅高金素梅委員不在葉元之委員葉元之葉元之委員不在賴世保委員賴世保賴世保委員不在"},{"start":21868.51,"end":21893.196,"text":"好 今天登記質詢的委員均與發言完畢做以下決定第一 報告及詢答完畢第二 委員尤浩、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報第三 委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":21896.457,"end":21899.343,"text":"本次會議到此結束現在散會大家辛苦了"},{"start":21905.236,"end":21929.005,"text":"我覺得你個性堅持的有點可愛 佩服佩服 辛苦兩天了再上來一次就開芭比鏡 你看人家等多久啊不過那個我們聽不懂啦 但是有一點點閱率如果往前排要注意一下我不知道會不會"}]}},{"id":"16209","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16209","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc5998180c4b1e7cf4ad9f551ce5fa921f6059d4d42a7fce21f9391c46bbe5d53b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-24","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-24T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:10:00+08:00","duration":13185,"影片長度":"03:39:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 12:10:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1886.4197187500001,"end":1887.2803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1906.5515937500002,"end":1910.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1911.3103437500001,"end":1915.8665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1916.3728437500001,"end":1921.2497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1921.68846875,"end":1929.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1929.2315937500002,"end":1933.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1933.4334687500002,"end":1936.3022187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1936.47096875,"end":1938.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1938.58034375,"end":1952.1478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1952.6709687500002,"end":1959.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1960.36596875,"end":1964.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1965.0909687500002,"end":1974.6253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1977.7472187500002,"end":1981.6622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1982.8434687500003,"end":1986.9103437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1986.94409375,"end":1989.4247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1989.9984687500003,"end":1991.2472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1991.9559687500002,"end":1993.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1994.7572187500002,"end":1997.0522187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1998.1490937500002,"end":2000.3934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2001.3722187500002,"end":2002.2159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2002.4522187500002,"end":2003.1947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2003.9034687500002,"end":2006.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2006.6540937500001,"end":2010.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2010.2484687500003,"end":2010.9740937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2012.54346875,"end":2015.8340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2016.2390937500002,"end":2018.7872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2023.3097187500002,"end":2028.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2028.6084687500002,"end":2030.3634687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2031.4940937500003,"end":2032.4559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2032.6753437500001,"end":2034.2953437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2034.6497187500001,"end":2039.3240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2039.4590937500002,"end":2042.4628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2042.7328437500003,"end":2044.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2044.6397187500002,"end":2046.2597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2046.5297187500003,"end":2047.8965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2048.09909375,"end":2049.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2049.73596875,"end":2052.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2059.54034375,"end":2072.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2072.63534375,"end":2073.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2073.39471875,"end":2074.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2074.8122187500003,"end":2075.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2075.89221875,"end":2080.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2080.7353437500005,"end":2101.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2102.0653437500005,"end":2104.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2104.98471875,"end":2107.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2107.9209687500006,"end":2117.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2117.52284375,"end":2127.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2127.64784375,"end":2133.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2133.79034375,"end":2135.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2135.3259687500004,"end":2137.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2137.48596875,"end":2141.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2141.7890937500006,"end":2146.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2146.26096875,"end":2151.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2152.0828437500004,"end":2162.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2166.34221875,"end":2168.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2168.99159375,"end":2175.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2180.8884687500004,"end":2186.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2187.01409375,"end":2194.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2194.91159375,"end":2195.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2196.78471875,"end":2198.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2198.65784375,"end":2213.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2213.65971875,"end":2303.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2303.4684687500003,"end":2401.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2402.00159375,"end":2425.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2429.76096875,"end":2434.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2439.3290937500005,"end":2467.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2467.98284375,"end":2470.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2470.39596875,"end":2493.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2494.25721875,"end":2504.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2504.1797187500006,"end":2511.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2511.8240937500004,"end":2556.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2557.0997187500006,"end":2558.9053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2559.1415937500005,"end":2581.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2581.9734687500004,"end":2590.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2591.1872187500003,"end":2612.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2612.7197187500005,"end":2620.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2624.1103437500005,"end":2626.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2626.3209687500002,"end":2628.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2646.4190937500007,"end":2653.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2654.87346875,"end":2655.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2655.64971875,"end":2656.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2656.93221875,"end":2658.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2658.8053437500002,"end":2659.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2660.5097187500005,"end":2663.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2663.66534375,"end":2667.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2673.18284375,"end":2682.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2681.9072187500005,"end":2685.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2682.8690937500005,"end":2685.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2686.8515937500006,"end":2687.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2687.3747187500003,"end":2687.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2688.13409375,"end":2692.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2693.19659375,"end":2697.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2697.76971875,"end":2700.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2700.7734687500006,"end":2703.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2704.1484687500006,"end":2707.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2707.65846875,"end":2709.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2710.07159375,"end":2712.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2713.1090937500003,"end":2714.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2715.20159375,"end":2718.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2718.8465937500005,"end":2721.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2721.88409375,"end":2725.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2730.27096875,"end":2733.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2733.6628437500003,"end":2736.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2737.44284375,"end":2738.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2740.8347187500003,"end":2743.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2745.64409375,"end":2748.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2746.7409687500003,"end":2747.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2748.2597187500005,"end":2748.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2756.4440937500003,"end":2759.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2760.29159375,"end":2764.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2765.47221875,"end":2767.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2767.7840937500005,"end":2767.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2767.80096875,"end":2768.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2767.81784375,"end":2773.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2769.2353437500005,"end":2772.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2772.5934687500003,"end":2772.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2772.81284375,"end":2772.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2773.79159375,"end":2776.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2777.6559687500003,"end":2788.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2789.51909375,"end":2791.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2793.0965937500005,"end":2793.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2794.2440937500005,"end":2794.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2794.7840937500005,"end":2794.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2795.3747187500003,"end":2796.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2797.51784375,"end":2799.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2801.26409375,"end":2803.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2803.01909375,"end":2803.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2803.7615937500004,"end":2804.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2804.50409375,"end":2811.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2812.3172187500004,"end":2814.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2815.18596875,"end":2826.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2827.1334687500002,"end":2834.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2835.08159375,"end":2836.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2836.3640937500004,"end":2840.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2840.4140937500006,"end":2841.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2841.9834687500006,"end":2848.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2848.39596875,"end":2870.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2872.1053437500004,"end":2873.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2874.31596875,"end":2876.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2876.2565937500003,"end":2876.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2877.3365937500002,"end":2879.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2880.9140937500006,"end":2883.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2884.0528437500006,"end":2885.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2886.6347187500005,"end":2887.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2888.3222187500005,"end":2889.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2889.92534375,"end":2890.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2891.2078437500004,"end":2896.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2897.4853437500005,"end":2899.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2900.6240937500006,"end":2901.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2901.53534375,"end":2902.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2902.9697187500005,"end":2903.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2904.0497187500005,"end":2905.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2905.9228437500005,"end":2907.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2907.74534375,"end":2911.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2911.7109687500006,"end":2913.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2913.66846875,"end":2914.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2915.2715937500006,"end":2918.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2920.09784375,"end":2921.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2922.2409687500003,"end":2926.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2926.37534375,"end":2944.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2945.5622187500003,"end":2949.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2949.5615937500006,"end":2950.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2950.7428437500002,"end":2953.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2954.15159375,"end":2955.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2956.3622187500005,"end":2958.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2959.04534375,"end":2959.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2959.7878437500003,"end":2965.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2965.5928437500006,"end":2971.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2971.34721875,"end":2973.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2975.3972187500003,"end":2975.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2976.0215937500006,"end":2976.9834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2978.5865937500002,"end":2985.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2985.8428437500006,"end":2987.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2988.7115937500002,"end":2989.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2989.8759687500005,"end":2989.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2989.89284375,"end":2989.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2990.09534375,"end":2991.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2992.5928437500006,"end":2995.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2993.2509687500005,"end":3006.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3006.7003437500007,"end":3017.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3017.97284375,"end":3020.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3020.92596875,"end":3024.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3024.4697187500005,"end":3024.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3025.02659375,"end":3026.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3026.91659375,"end":3037.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3038.0878437500005,"end":3039.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3039.79221875,"end":3047.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3047.89221875,"end":3048.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3049.5459687500006,"end":3055.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3055.35096875,"end":3059.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3059.7722187500003,"end":3063.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3064.3622187500005,"end":3064.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3065.66159375,"end":3069.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3069.3065937500005,"end":3074.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3074.3690937500005,"end":3075.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3075.2803437500006,"end":3078.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3079.44846875,"end":3083.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3083.43096875,"end":3084.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3085.4053437500006,"end":3088.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3088.32471875,"end":3096.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3090.6365937500004,"end":3092.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3093.8259687500004,"end":3100.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3100.25534375,"end":3105.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3105.97596875,"end":3108.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3108.86159375,"end":3110.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3110.86971875,"end":3114.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3114.48096875,"end":3120.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3121.1803437500002,"end":3123.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3123.1209687500004,"end":3123.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3123.5934687500003,"end":3125.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3123.81284375,"end":3126.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3126.7490937500006,"end":3128.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3127.6940937500003,"end":3137.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3130.0059687500006,"end":3130.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3137.9540937500005,"end":3138.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3138.9834687500006,"end":3139.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3139.9959687500004,"end":3140.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3141.0253437500005,"end":3142.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3142.86471875,"end":3144.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3145.0584687500004,"end":3155.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3157.79909375,"end":3167.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3157.8834687500002,"end":3157.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3160.4822187500004,"end":3161.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3167.5359687500004,"end":3172.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3172.26096875,"end":3187.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3187.3640937500004,"end":3201.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3202.1465937500006,"end":3204.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3203.4122187500006,"end":3205.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3205.18409375,"end":3205.9940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3205.58909375,"end":3207.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3207.3947187500007,"end":3207.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3208.3397187500004,"end":3210.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3210.06096875,"end":3214.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3211.6640937500006,"end":3212.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3213.18284375,"end":3234.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3234.88409375,"end":3246.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3247.00034375,"end":3259.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3259.90971875,"end":3261.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3261.88409375,"end":3270.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3270.55784375,"end":3283.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3284.05784375,"end":3284.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3286.18409375,"end":3305.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3306.07971875,"end":3309.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3310.39971875,"end":3312.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3313.4372187500003,"end":3314.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3315.3103437500004,"end":3317.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3318.11159375,"end":3321.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3322.1278437500005,"end":3322.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3322.58346875,"end":3326.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3326.14409375,"end":3330.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3330.66659375,"end":3336.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3337.58534375,"end":3358.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3359.6072187500004,"end":3362.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3362.8809687500006,"end":3365.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3365.73284375,"end":3366.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3367.65659375,"end":3368.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3369.05721875,"end":3371.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3371.99346875,"end":3373.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3374.0690937500003,"end":3376.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3376.9715937500005,"end":3382.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3383.50221875,"end":3387.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3387.5184687500005,"end":3401.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3404.7478437500004,"end":3409.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3409.2197187500005,"end":3411.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3410.8903437500003,"end":3456.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3444.26909375,"end":3444.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3456.68909375,"end":3481.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3481.2422187500006,"end":3483.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3484.33034375,"end":3520.0040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3520.2740937500002,"end":3526.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3526.7540937500007,"end":3549.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3550.6490937500002,"end":3562.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3563.1534687500007,"end":3566.8322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3566.96721875,"end":3567.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3568.6884687500005,"end":3570.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3571.25346875,"end":3573.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3589.6472187500003,"end":3590.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3590.77784375,"end":3600.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3597.7809687500003,"end":3598.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3600.53159375,"end":3601.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3606.6403437500003,"end":3607.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3608.36159375,"end":3608.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3609.2559687500006,"end":3610.9940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3611.7872187500006,"end":3613.2384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3613.54221875,"end":3615.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3616.9509687500004,"end":3619.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3617.65971875,"end":3617.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3619.8365937500002,"end":3621.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3621.5915937500004,"end":3622.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3622.1484687500006,"end":3624.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3625.5234687500006,"end":3626.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3626.8397187500004,"end":3627.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3628.02096875,"end":3628.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3628.93221875,"end":3629.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3629.7422187500006,"end":3630.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3631.8009687500007,"end":3632.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3633.69096875,"end":3633.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3633.8259687500004,"end":3635.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3635.68221875,"end":3640.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3640.0359687500004,"end":3641.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3641.09909375,"end":3643.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3643.8834687500002,"end":3644.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3645.19971875,"end":3647.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3647.73096875,"end":3651.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3652.2703437500004,"end":3659.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3659.61096875,"end":3668.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3669.4659687500007,"end":3670.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3671.4909687500003,"end":3676.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3677.73471875,"end":3680.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3681.0928437500006,"end":3683.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3683.35409375,"end":3687.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3687.7247187500006,"end":3692.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3693.3272187500006,"end":3693.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3694.06971875,"end":3695.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3695.4872187500005,"end":3698.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3699.43596875,"end":3702.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3701.17409375,"end":3708.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3709.2740937500002,"end":3713.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3714.15096875,"end":3715.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3716.3278437500003,"end":3717.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3717.4247187500005,"end":3718.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3719.14596875,"end":3719.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3719.7197187500005,"end":3727.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3729.9628437500005,"end":3731.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3731.3972187500003,"end":3733.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3731.4140937500006,"end":3731.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3733.11846875,"end":3733.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3735.22784375,"end":3736.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3737.3709687500004,"end":3742.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3739.5309687500003,"end":3740.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3740.30721875,"end":3740.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3740.5603437500004,"end":3741.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3741.1678437500004,"end":3741.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3742.4840937500003,"end":3747.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3745.79159375,"end":3746.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3746.02784375,"end":3746.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3747.05721875,"end":3747.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3747.1415937500005,"end":3747.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3747.22596875,"end":3747.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3748.0865937500002,"end":3751.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3750.83721875,"end":3751.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3752.2040937500005,"end":3753.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3752.2547187500004,"end":3752.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3753.6384687500004,"end":3754.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3755.00534375,"end":3755.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3756.2372187500005,"end":3761.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3762.05909375,"end":3770.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3770.91846875,"end":3772.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3772.90971875,"end":3775.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3775.3397187500004,"end":3777.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3778.1240937500006,"end":3784.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3785.19471875,"end":3787.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3787.96221875,"end":3793.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3794.3240937500004,"end":3805.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3806.42346875,"end":3808.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3808.8028437500006,"end":3811.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3814.01721875,"end":3818.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3818.21909375,"end":3819.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3822.08346875,"end":3822.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3823.70346875,"end":3824.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3824.5134687500004,"end":3827.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3824.91846875,"end":3825.4415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3827.4328437500008,"end":3829.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3829.84596875,"end":3847.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3847.7334687500006,"end":3851.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3853.5047187500004,"end":3858.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3858.66846875,"end":3864.9797187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3861.92534375,"end":3863.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3864.01784375,"end":3870.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3870.53159375,"end":3871.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3871.8309687500005,"end":3872.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3872.3034687500003,"end":3874.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3875.1553437500006,"end":3876.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3879.3740937500006,"end":3881.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3883.2722187500003,"end":3886.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3887.5078437500006,"end":3891.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3890.3934687500005,"end":3891.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3891.32159375,"end":3891.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3891.5409687500005,"end":3896.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3896.7722187500003,"end":3898.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3898.3584687500006,"end":3899.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3899.7928437500004,"end":3905.4797187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3905.54721875,"end":3909.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3909.6815937500005,"end":3910.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3910.7615937500004,"end":3913.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3913.9678437500006,"end":3919.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3919.58721875,"end":3921.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3922.4559687500005,"end":3922.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3925.18971875,"end":3932.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3933.52596875,"end":3933.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3935.02784375,"end":3936.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3936.47909375,"end":3936.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3937.13721875,"end":3938.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3938.8584687500006,"end":3940.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3941.05221875,"end":3943.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3943.8534687500005,"end":3944.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3945.33846875,"end":3945.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3946.23284375,"end":3948.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3950.70471875,"end":3952.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3953.1178437500002,"end":3958.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3960.45846875,"end":3961.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3961.2009687500004,"end":3966.6515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3970.11096875,"end":3970.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3971.4440937500003,"end":3971.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3972.5915937500004,"end":3972.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3972.6084687500006,"end":3973.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3973.06409375,"end":3979.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3978.4472187500005,"end":3983.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3983.96534375,"end":3990.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3990.7490937500006,"end":3991.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3991.62659375,"end":3991.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3992.16659375,"end":3998.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3998.2753437500005,"end":3999.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3999.64221875,"end":4004.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4005.24471875,"end":4007.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4007.59034375,"end":4009.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4009.9697187500005,"end":4010.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4010.4928437500002,"end":4010.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4011.6065937500007,"end":4013.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4013.7159687500007,"end":4016.0109687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4016.33159375,"end":4017.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4018.6603437500007,"end":4019.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4019.6728437500005,"end":4021.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4021.79909375,"end":4028.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4029.22409375,"end":4034.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4035.8053437500002,"end":4039.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4039.8047187500006,"end":4042.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4042.35284375,"end":4043.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4044.29346875,"end":4045.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4047.5840937500006,"end":4056.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4057.01721875,"end":4063.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4057.25346875,"end":4057.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4064.2228437500007,"end":4072.6603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4072.98096875,"end":4074.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4075.14096875,"end":4077.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4077.5372187500006,"end":4080.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4080.3553437500004,"end":4084.7765937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4085.09721875,"end":4089.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4089.8728437500004,"end":4101.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4101.38159375,"end":4105.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4106.35971875,"end":4108.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4109.07659375,"end":4109.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4110.038468750001,"end":4115.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4116.0965937500005,"end":4116.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4117.024718750001,"end":4119.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4119.404093749999,"end":4122.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4122.89721875,"end":4125.175343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4125.34409375,"end":4125.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4125.782843749999,"end":4127.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4127.419718749999,"end":4130.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4130.67659375,"end":4131.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4132.09409375,"end":4132.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4133.54534375,"end":4138.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4139.0634687500005,"end":4141.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4141.864718750001,"end":4142.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4142.48909375,"end":4145.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4145.17221875,"end":4145.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4146.218468749999,"end":4149.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4149.99846875,"end":4150.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4151.2303437499995,"end":4151.331593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4151.331593749999,"end":4152.175343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4151.36534375,"end":4151.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4152.5634687500005,"end":4153.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4153.03596875,"end":4153.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4153.50846875,"end":4154.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4154.6728437500005,"end":4154.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4154.77409375,"end":4155.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4155.0272187499995,"end":4165.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4161.827843749999,"end":4162.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4162.536593750001,"end":4162.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4166.249093750001,"end":4168.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4169.32034375,"end":4170.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4171.075343750001,"end":4176.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4176.981593750001,"end":4178.331593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4178.483468750001,"end":4178.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4179.310343749999,"end":4181.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4181.79096875,"end":4184.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4185.53721875,"end":4188.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4185.58784375,"end":4186.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4186.43159375,"end":4186.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4188.33846875,"end":4190.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4190.667218750001,"end":4193.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4193.26596875,"end":4193.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4193.333468750001,"end":4193.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4193.58659375,"end":4196.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4196.6747187500005,"end":4198.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4199.290343750001,"end":4200.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4202.12534375,"end":4203.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4203.34034375,"end":4204.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4204.673468749999,"end":4205.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4205.26409375,"end":4207.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4208.014718750001,"end":4211.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4211.72721875,"end":4212.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4213.110968749999,"end":4221.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4222.307843750001,"end":4223.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4224.0965937500005,"end":4228.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4230.34034375,"end":4230.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4230.9647187499995,"end":4234.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4234.592843750001,"end":4234.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4234.60971875,"end":4241.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4241.22471875,"end":4245.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4246.017218749999,"end":4246.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4246.05096875,"end":4248.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4249.22346875,"end":4252.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4252.61534375,"end":4254.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4254.30284375,"end":4254.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4255.14659375,"end":4256.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4257.57659375,"end":4261.440968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4261.913468750001,"end":4262.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4262.68971875,"end":4266.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4266.25034375,"end":4268.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4268.88284375,"end":4269.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4269.89534375,"end":4271.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4272.139718750001,"end":4274.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4275.19409375,"end":4282.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4280.610968749999,"end":4288.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4288.69409375,"end":4289.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4290.364718750001,"end":4292.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4292.9803437499995,"end":4293.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4294.00971875,"end":4295.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4295.714093750001,"end":4296.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4296.979718750001,"end":4298.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4298.83596875,"end":4300.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4301.940968749999,"end":4305.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4304.286593750001,"end":4304.894093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4305.33284375,"end":4306.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4307.661593750001,"end":4309.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4308.57284375,"end":4308.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4309.9228437500005,"end":4313.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4312.909718749999,"end":4314.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4314.20909375,"end":4318.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4319.288468750001,"end":4321.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4321.7353437500005,"end":4327.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4322.20784375,"end":4323.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4323.085343750001,"end":4323.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4323.15284375,"end":4323.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4327.489718750001,"end":4328.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4328.50221875,"end":4329.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4329.90284375,"end":4330.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4330.98284375,"end":4333.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4333.19346875,"end":4334.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4334.526593750001,"end":4338.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4338.67784375,"end":4342.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4342.10346875,"end":4346.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4346.659718749999,"end":4354.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4354.304093750001,"end":4357.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4357.729718750001,"end":4368.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4369.05284375,"end":4371.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4371.48284375,"end":4372.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4372.03971875,"end":4372.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4372.495343750001,"end":4373.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4373.794718749999,"end":4383.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4384.122218750001,"end":4385.050343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4385.69159375,"end":4394.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4395.10784375,"end":4397.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4397.706593749999,"end":4402.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4402.43159375,"end":4403.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4404.034718749999,"end":4404.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4404.06846875,"end":4404.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4404.96284375,"end":4405.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4405.030343750001,"end":4405.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4406.02596875,"end":4406.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4406.0428437499995,"end":4406.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4407.3084687499995,"end":4409.097218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4409.16471875,"end":4410.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4411.341593749999,"end":4415.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4415.712218750001,"end":4419.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4419.62721875,"end":4419.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4419.779093749999,"end":4419.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4419.86346875,"end":4421.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4421.382218750001,"end":4421.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4421.854718750001,"end":4421.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4424.82471875,"end":4426.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4426.967843750001,"end":4429.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4438.88159375,"end":4442.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4443.4715937500005,"end":4444.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4449.47909375,"end":4451.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4453.394093749999,"end":4457.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4458.0009687500005,"end":4460.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4460.54909375,"end":4460.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4461.3759687500005,"end":4461.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4461.966593749999,"end":4462.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4462.0340937500005,"end":4462.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4462.84409375,"end":4463.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4463.940968749999,"end":4467.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4468.85159375,"end":4471.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4472.749718749999,"end":4478.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4478.03159375,"end":4478.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4480.41096875,"end":4486.300343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4486.958468750001,"end":4492.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4492.999718749999,"end":4494.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4494.974093750001,"end":4498.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4498.872218750001,"end":4502.753468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4502.9559687500005,"end":4503.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4503.90096875,"end":4506.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4508.474093750001,"end":4513.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4510.46534375,"end":4521.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4521.24846875,"end":4522.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4524.218468749999,"end":4526.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4527.1884687500005,"end":4528.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4529.145968750001,"end":4529.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4529.7197187500005,"end":4529.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4530.276593750001,"end":4532.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4532.9090937500005,"end":4535.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4535.92971875,"end":4539.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4539.979718750001,"end":4542.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4543.1522187499995,"end":4545.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4545.649718750001,"end":4551.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4551.57284375,"end":4552.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4554.1884687500005,"end":4555.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4556.21346875,"end":4557.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4557.512843750001,"end":4558.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4560.19596875,"end":4561.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4562.17034375,"end":4562.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4563.67221875,"end":4565.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4565.54534375,"end":4568.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4567.60409375,"end":4570.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4571.940968749999,"end":4571.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4571.97471875,"end":4572.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4572.81846875,"end":4572.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4573.392218749999,"end":4578.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4578.70784375,"end":4581.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4581.71159375,"end":4584.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4584.9178437499995,"end":4585.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4585.69409375,"end":4589.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4589.9803437499995,"end":4590.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4590.95909375,"end":4591.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4592.25846875,"end":4595.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4595.86971875,"end":4596.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4597.08471875,"end":4599.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4599.734093749999,"end":4600.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4601.13471875,"end":4602.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4602.24846875,"end":4602.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4602.29909375,"end":4605.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4605.99471875,"end":4606.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4606.80471875,"end":4609.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4610.07846875,"end":4610.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4610.83784375,"end":4613.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4615.05659375,"end":4615.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4616.0184687500005,"end":4625.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4618.920968750001,"end":4619.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4620.591593749999,"end":4626.784718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4627.341593749999,"end":4630.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4628.16846875,"end":4628.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4630.767218749999,"end":4638.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4637.669093750001,"end":4639.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4640.436593750001,"end":4641.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4641.735968749999,"end":4647.456593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4645.1278437500005,"end":4645.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4645.14471875,"end":4645.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4647.743468750001,"end":4649.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4649.97096875,"end":4657.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4657.51409375,"end":4657.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4657.75034375,"end":4657.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4658.45909375,"end":4660.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4660.83846875,"end":4662.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4662.880343750001,"end":4664.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4665.24284375,"end":4667.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4668.044093750001,"end":4672.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4672.83659375,"end":4675.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4676.02596875,"end":4677.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4677.02159375,"end":4678.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4679.097218749999,"end":4682.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4682.72534375,"end":4684.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4683.38346875,"end":4683.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4683.99096875,"end":4694.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4694.87534375,"end":4696.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4696.19159375,"end":4701.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4701.38909375,"end":4704.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4705.69221875,"end":4707.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4707.24471875,"end":4715.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4715.665343750001,"end":4727.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4727.747843749999,"end":4738.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4731.57846875,"end":4734.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4739.104718750001,"end":4750.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4752.233468750001,"end":4760.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4760.08034375,"end":4760.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4760.21534375,"end":4760.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4760.35034375,"end":4763.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4765.09221875,"end":4770.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4771.0322187500005,"end":4775.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4777.124093750001,"end":4777.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4778.08596875,"end":4779.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4780.2459687499995,"end":4786.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4786.97909375,"end":4787.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4788.76784375,"end":4794.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4791.19784375,"end":4792.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4795.0115937499995,"end":4798.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4795.99034375,"end":4796.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4796.83409375,"end":4799.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4799.280968749999,"end":4807.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4807.19534375,"end":4808.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4809.52409375,"end":4812.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4812.325343750001,"end":4818.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4817.16846875,"end":4817.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4818.11346875,"end":4824.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4818.417218750001,"end":4818.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4819.919093750001,"end":4820.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4824.34034375,"end":4826.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4826.061593750001,"end":4829.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4830.972218750001,"end":4839.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4840.75971875,"end":4845.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4845.788468750001,"end":4849.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4849.80471875,"end":4851.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4849.97346875,"end":4851.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4852.33596875,"end":4853.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4852.36971875,"end":4852.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4854.0740937499995,"end":4859.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4859.91284375,"end":4866.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4866.24096875,"end":4866.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4867.590968750001,"end":4868.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4869.970343749999,"end":4870.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4871.26971875,"end":4874.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4874.96534375,"end":4875.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4875.1678437499995,"end":4877.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4876.41659375,"end":4877.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4877.935343749999,"end":4881.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4881.58034375,"end":4887.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4887.739718750001,"end":4892.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4893.02159375,"end":4893.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4893.10596875,"end":4895.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4894.253468750001,"end":4894.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4894.489718750001,"end":4895.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4895.670968750001,"end":4899.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4900.682843750001,"end":4906.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4907.196593750001,"end":4907.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4909.05284375,"end":4911.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4915.04346875,"end":4921.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4917.96284375,"end":4918.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4921.50659375,"end":4922.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4922.78909375,"end":4926.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4926.95721875,"end":4935.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4935.782843749999,"end":4939.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4939.03971875,"end":4941.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4941.233468750001,"end":4947.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4942.83659375,"end":4943.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4951.66221875,"end":4952.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4953.11346875,"end":4956.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4957.41659375,"end":4959.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4960.960343750001,"end":4969.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4969.7353437500005,"end":4971.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4972.14846875,"end":4974.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4974.52784375,"end":4975.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4976.805968750001,"end":4978.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4979.13471875,"end":4985.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4985.429093750001,"end":4994.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4995.030968749999,"end":4997.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4998.220343749999,"end":4998.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4999.60409375,"end":5003.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5003.434718750001,"end":5014.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5016.225968750001,"end":5021.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5021.811593750001,"end":5029.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5030.21534375,"end":5039.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5033.607218749999,"end":5034.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5035.59846875,"end":5047.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5048.001593749999,"end":5048.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5048.06909375,"end":5049.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5049.99284375,"end":5051.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5052.169718749999,"end":5074.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5074.74846875,"end":5075.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5075.811593750001,"end":5076.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5077.22909375,"end":5077.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5077.22909375,"end":5078.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5077.98846875,"end":5083.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5084.8397187499995,"end":5085.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5085.599093750001,"end":5086.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5086.206593750001,"end":5086.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5086.5272187499995,"end":5086.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5087.894093750001,"end":5089.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5089.83471875,"end":5090.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5091.454718749999,"end":5091.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5093.17596875,"end":5095.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5095.6903437500005,"end":5100.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5100.499718749999,"end":5100.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5101.19159375,"end":5104.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5105.663468750001,"end":5105.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5107.165343750001,"end":5109.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5110.067843750001,"end":5116.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5111.8397187499995,"end":5113.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5117.661593750001,"end":5119.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5119.669718749999,"end":5123.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5123.50034375,"end":5127.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5127.80346875,"end":5130.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5131.499093750001,"end":5133.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5134.18221875,"end":5149.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5136.409718750001,"end":5138.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5149.167218750001,"end":5152.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5153.234093749999,"end":5157.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5158.904093749999,"end":5160.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5161.14846875,"end":5162.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5163.089093750001,"end":5165.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5166.497843749999,"end":5168.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5168.995343750001,"end":5170.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5170.817843750001,"end":5178.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5173.163468750001,"end":5176.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5178.71534375,"end":5183.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5183.40659375,"end":5185.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5185.36409375,"end":5187.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5188.0809687500005,"end":5193.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5193.71721875,"end":5196.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5196.5184687500005,"end":5198.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5198.72909375,"end":5200.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5201.091593749999,"end":5206.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5207.4872187500005,"end":5213.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5213.798468749999,"end":5214.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5215.51971875,"end":5219.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5219.53596875,"end":5220.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5220.970343749999,"end":5222.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5223.653468750001,"end":5234.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5234.87534375,"end":5240.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5240.44409375,"end":5241.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5241.49034375,"end":5242.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5242.97534375,"end":5246.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5247.00846875,"end":5247.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5248.729718750001,"end":5252.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5253.454718749999,"end":5255.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5256.137843750001,"end":5257.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5257.65659375,"end":5259.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5260.00221875,"end":5261.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5261.53784375,"end":5262.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5263.47846875,"end":5267.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5267.69721875,"end":5268.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5269.41846875,"end":5272.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5272.540343750001,"end":5273.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5274.6834687499995,"end":5275.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5276.30346875,"end":5277.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5277.889718750001,"end":5287.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5287.7615937499995,"end":5289.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5290.09034375,"end":5291.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5292.01409375,"end":5299.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5302.42596875,"end":5305.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5305.04159375,"end":5312.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5312.55096875,"end":5314.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5314.94721875,"end":5320.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5321.07284375,"end":5322.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5323.2665937500005,"end":5324.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5324.73471875,"end":5327.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5328.05909375,"end":5330.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5330.421593749999,"end":5332.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5333.50971875,"end":5334.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5334.99471875,"end":5341.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5341.862843750001,"end":5345.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5345.811593750001,"end":5350.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5350.350968750001,"end":5356.392218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5356.64534375,"end":5360.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5361.28596875,"end":5378.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5379.3084687499995,"end":5382.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5382.1434687500005,"end":5382.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5383.307843750001,"end":5383.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5383.32471875,"end":5384.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5387.12159375,"end":5391.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5408.95784375,"end":5411.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5411.74221875,"end":5412.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5414.560343749999,"end":5419.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5420.247218750001,"end":5420.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5420.2978437500005,"end":5420.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5420.68596875,"end":5420.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5421.68159375,"end":5422.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5423.335343750001,"end":5426.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5426.92971875,"end":5429.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5430.01784375,"end":5443.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5443.61909375,"end":5445.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5445.593468749999,"end":5450.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5452.157843749999,"end":5455.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5456.325968749999,"end":5465.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5465.55659375,"end":5467.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5468.8134687500005,"end":5472.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5472.34034375,"end":5473.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5474.010968750001,"end":5479.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5479.967843750001,"end":5482.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5483.17409375,"end":5488.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5488.92846875,"end":5502.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5503.356593750001,"end":5503.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5504.234093749999,"end":5508.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5509.161593750001,"end":5514.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5512.46909375,"end":5512.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5514.57846875,"end":5517.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5518.66221875,"end":5519.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5520.0965937500005,"end":5520.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5520.467843750001,"end":5524.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5525.057843750001,"end":5528.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5528.618468750001,"end":5536.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5536.43159375,"end":5541.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5538.15284375,"end":5538.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5541.66284375,"end":5553.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5545.155968749999,"end":5545.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5554.065968750001,"end":5560.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5557.491593750001,"end":5557.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5558.419718749999,"end":5559.314093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5561.794718749999,"end":5565.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5565.52409375,"end":5572.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5572.915343750001,"end":5580.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5581.403468750001,"end":5594.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5595.29159375,"end":5595.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5596.590968750001,"end":5603.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5603.96534375,"end":5605.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5606.243468750001,"end":5607.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5607.91409375,"end":5614.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5615.4403437500005,"end":5616.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5616.30096875,"end":5621.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5622.139718750001,"end":5635.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5636.145968750001,"end":5637.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5638.10346875,"end":5638.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5638.626593749999,"end":5642.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5643.85784375,"end":5644.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5645.59596875,"end":5648.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5649.20721875,"end":5649.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5650.253468750001,"end":5663.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5664.71534375,"end":5670.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5670.72284375,"end":5673.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5674.65471875,"end":5680.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5681.2528437500005,"end":5684.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5685.2353437500005,"end":5689.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5690.095343749999,"end":5692.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5692.55909375,"end":5693.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5693.942843750001,"end":5694.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5694.5165937500005,"end":5694.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5695.309718750001,"end":5701.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5702.49846875,"end":5703.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5702.515343749999,"end":5704.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5704.37159375,"end":5704.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5704.590968750001,"end":5705.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5705.02971875,"end":5708.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5705.569718750001,"end":5705.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5708.759093750001,"end":5710.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5710.93596875,"end":5712.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5712.842843750001,"end":5715.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5716.167218750001,"end":5717.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5717.34846875,"end":5718.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5718.42846875,"end":5719.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5720.26784375,"end":5724.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5724.419093750001,"end":5725.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5726.241593750001,"end":5728.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5730.089093750001,"end":5731.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5732.2997187500005,"end":5752.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5732.940968750001,"end":5735.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5736.16409375,"end":5736.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5752.684718750001,"end":5754.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5754.743468750001,"end":5759.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5759.53596875,"end":5761.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5761.84784375,"end":5762.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5762.82659375,"end":5765.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5766.606593750001,"end":5768.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5768.5809687500005,"end":5769.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5769.86346875,"end":5771.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5771.939093749999,"end":5774.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5775.14534375,"end":5775.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5776.42784375,"end":5777.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5778.317843750001,"end":5780.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5780.5790937500005,"end":5781.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5780.612843750001,"end":5790.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5790.16409375,"end":5791.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5792.22284375,"end":5792.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5794.33221875,"end":5805.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5805.57096875,"end":5810.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5810.430968750001,"end":5812.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5813.18159375,"end":5816.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5816.995343750001,"end":5843.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5835.67596875,"end":5835.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5835.692843750001,"end":5835.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5835.70971875,"end":5836.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5841.599093750001,"end":5841.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5841.71721875,"end":5841.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5843.30346875,"end":5850.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5850.559718750001,"end":5854.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5854.98096875,"end":5873.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5874.06659375,"end":5880.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5880.81659375,"end":5886.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5887.1278437500005,"end":5888.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5889.169718749999,"end":5892.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5893.50659375,"end":5894.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5894.45159375,"end":5895.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5896.392218750001,"end":5898.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5899.311593750001,"end":5900.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5901.10034375,"end":5905.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5905.487843750001,"end":5905.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5906.31471875,"end":5906.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5906.97284375,"end":5915.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5914.6678437499995,"end":5915.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5915.27534375,"end":5919.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5919.038468750001,"end":5927.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5928.184718750001,"end":5928.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5928.218468749999,"end":5942.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5938.2928437499995,"end":5940.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5941.65096875,"end":5953.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5953.530968749999,"end":5953.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5953.868468750001,"end":5953.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5953.9022187499995,"end":5953.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5953.9697187500005,"end":5954.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5954.83034375,"end":5954.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5954.96534375,"end":5955.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5955.083468750001,"end":5955.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5955.25221875,"end":5955.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5955.8934687500005,"end":5962.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5957.17596875,"end":5975.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5964.263468749999,"end":5965.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5969.17409375,"end":5970.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5974.52346875,"end":5982.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5976.497843749999,"end":5977.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5982.269093750001,"end":5982.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5982.28596875,"end":5982.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5982.35346875,"end":5984.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5983.46721875,"end":5984.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5984.294093750001,"end":5985.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5985.087218750001,"end":5992.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5989.677218750001,"end":5991.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5991.077843749999,"end":5992.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5993.187218749999,"end":5994.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5995.397843750001,"end":5996.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5997.270968750001,"end":6017.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6017.622218750001,"end":6018.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6019.022843750001,"end":6024.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6024.33846875,"end":6024.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6025.09784375,"end":6030.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6029.147843750001,"end":6030.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6030.3290937500005,"end":6032.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6034.66596875,"end":6034.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6034.9697187500005,"end":6043.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6044.55471875,"end":6047.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6047.423468750001,"end":6057.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6054.561593750001,"end":6054.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6056.097218750001,"end":6057.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6057.1434687500005,"end":6057.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6057.177218750001,"end":6059.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6059.03346875,"end":6059.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6059.21909375,"end":6059.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6059.286593750001,"end":6064.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6064.686593750001,"end":6073.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6071.6728437500005,"end":6072.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6073.3603437500005,"end":6073.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6073.42784375,"end":6077.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6077.88284375,"end":6081.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6083.097218750001,"end":6084.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6084.784718750001,"end":6086.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6084.81846875,"end":6092.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6090.218468749999,"end":6090.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6091.450343750001,"end":6091.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6091.75409375,"end":6095.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6095.39909375,"end":6097.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6098.099093750001,"end":6099.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6100.32659375,"end":6109.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6106.030343750001,"end":6106.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6108.07221875,"end":6108.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6109.962218750001,"end":6110.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6110.02971875,"end":6142.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6115.919093750001,"end":6117.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6117.06659375,"end":6117.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6128.372843749999,"end":6128.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6128.389718750001,"end":6128.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6128.845343750001,"end":6129.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6141.653468750001,"end":6146.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6144.35346875,"end":6144.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6146.86784375,"end":6147.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6148.04909375,"end":6158.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6158.30909375,"end":6163.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6163.23659375,"end":6165.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6165.970343750001,"end":6166.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6167.337218750001,"end":6169.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6169.0584687499995,"end":6172.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6172.97346875,"end":6174.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6174.981593750001,"end":6176.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6177.411593750001,"end":6183.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6181.05659375,"end":6181.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6183.554093750001,"end":6183.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6183.689093750001,"end":6183.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6183.790343750001,"end":6191.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6184.04346875,"end":6184.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6191.856593750001,"end":6193.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6193.122218750001,"end":6194.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6195.34971875,"end":6199.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6198.06659375,"end":6204.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6204.19221875,"end":6214.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6207.837218750001,"end":6208.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6214.51971875,"end":6217.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6217.725968750001,"end":6218.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6221.894093750001,"end":6222.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6223.59846875,"end":6226.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6239.140343749999,"end":6240.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6240.642218750001,"end":6241.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6246.95346875,"end":6247.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6247.965968750001,"end":6249.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6249.501593750001,"end":6254.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6260.2509687500005,"end":6260.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6260.26784375,"end":6262.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6262.03971875,"end":6262.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6262.967843750001,"end":6264.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6265.1278437500005,"end":6267.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6267.372218750001,"end":6271.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6272.654093749999,"end":6288.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6277.733468750001,"end":6278.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6289.42784375,"end":6289.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6289.967843750001,"end":6293.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6292.448468750001,"end":6295.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6297.10596875,"end":6313.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6313.491593750001,"end":6314.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6315.0947187500005,"end":6321.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6319.482218749999,"end":6321.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6321.67596875,"end":6321.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6321.81096875,"end":6322.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6322.57034375,"end":6322.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6322.587218750001,"end":6323.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6323.58284375,"end":6327.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6323.68409375,"end":6325.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6326.13096875,"end":6327.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6328.18971875,"end":6339.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6339.90096875,"end":6342.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6342.364718750001,"end":6350.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6351.544718749999,"end":6352.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6352.354718750001,"end":6354.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6352.37159375,"end":6352.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6355.1728437500005,"end":6355.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6355.18971875,"end":6356.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6356.421593749999,"end":6356.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6356.45534375,"end":6360.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6357.67034375,"end":6371.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6361.12971875,"end":6362.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6372.604718750001,"end":6373.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6373.80284375,"end":6373.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6373.85346875,"end":6374.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6374.747843749999,"end":6375.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6374.764718750001,"end":6376.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6376.55346875,"end":6379.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6377.21159375,"end":6378.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6378.47721875,"end":6379.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6379.27034375,"end":6379.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6379.33784375,"end":6379.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6379.42221875,"end":6379.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6379.75971875,"end":6384.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6379.776593750001,"end":6380.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6384.366593750001,"end":6385.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6386.6278437500005,"end":6410.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6400.870343750001,"end":6401.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6401.68034375,"end":6403.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6403.9247187500005,"end":6405.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6405.747218750001,"end":6405.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6405.89909375,"end":6405.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6411.56909375,"end":6414.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6415.0115937499995,"end":6417.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6417.91409375,"end":6424.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6424.00596875,"end":6425.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6424.93409375,"end":6425.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6426.182843750001,"end":6429.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6429.52409375,"end":6439.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6439.581593750001,"end":6440.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6441.420968750001,"end":6444.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6445.09971875,"end":6469.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6465.231593750001,"end":6468.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6468.927218750001,"end":6469.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6469.956593750001,"end":6470.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6471.47534375,"end":6473.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6473.804093750001,"end":6474.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6480.216593749999,"end":6481.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6482.106593750001,"end":6495.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6496.669718749999,"end":6498.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6502.74471875,"end":6504.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6504.85409375,"end":6507.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6508.43159375,"end":6510.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6510.96284375,"end":6512.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6512.700968749999,"end":6514.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6514.388468749999,"end":6522.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6516.43034375,"end":6516.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6522.72471875,"end":6528.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6530.16659375,"end":6530.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6530.21721875,"end":6538.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6538.874093750001,"end":6542.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6542.991593750001,"end":6559.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6560.77784375,"end":6571.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6572.472218750001,"end":6576.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6578.17596875,"end":6579.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6579.0028437500005,"end":6579.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6581.1122187500005,"end":6591.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6583.778468750001,"end":6584.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6591.52409375,"end":6592.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6593.667218750001,"end":6594.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6596.50221875,"end":6603.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6599.55659375,"end":6599.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6602.12159375,"end":6607.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6608.517218750001,"end":6612.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6614.22096875,"end":6622.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6622.489718750001,"end":6626.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6626.657843750001,"end":6632.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6634.251593750001,"end":6635.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6635.97284375,"end":6638.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6638.63909375,"end":6651.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6653.151593750001,"end":6661.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6654.5184687500005,"end":6655.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6655.83471875,"end":6655.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6657.825968749999,"end":6658.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6658.163468750001,"end":6658.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6658.33221875,"end":6658.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6661.92659375,"end":6664.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6663.81659375,"end":6664.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6664.42409375,"end":6664.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6664.47471875,"end":6664.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6664.677218750001,"end":6664.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6664.69409375,"end":6664.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6664.8290937500005,"end":6664.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6664.964093750001,"end":6666.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6666.29721875,"end":6666.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6666.314093750001,"end":6675.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6666.415343750001,"end":6667.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6674.22846875,"end":6675.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6675.86534375,"end":6679.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6679.864718750001,"end":6681.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6680.050343750001,"end":6686.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6685.770968750001,"end":6698.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6687.779093749999,"end":6695.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6698.78159375,"end":6700.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6700.75596875,"end":6703.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6703.9959687499995,"end":6704.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6705.44721875,"end":6705.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6705.464093750001,"end":6709.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6710.03721875,"end":6712.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6710.69534375,"end":6713.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6713.7665937500005,"end":6718.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6714.62721875,"end":6714.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6715.065968750001,"end":6716.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6719.21721875,"end":6722.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6719.284718750001,"end":6719.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6720.550343750001,"end":6722.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6722.25471875,"end":6722.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6722.288468750001,"end":6727.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6727.14846875,"end":6737.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6732.80159375,"end":6733.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6737.104718750001,"end":6750.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6751.46534375,"end":6760.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6756.409718750001,"end":6758.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6760.84784375,"end":6760.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6760.9490937499995,"end":6760.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6760.965968750001,"end":6761.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6761.0165937500005,"end":6762.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6762.01221875,"end":6762.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6762.788468750001,"end":6781.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6762.80534375,"end":6763.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6764.982218749999,"end":6769.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6777.317843750001,"end":6777.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6781.28346875,"end":6781.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6782.295968750001,"end":6782.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6782.31284375,"end":6785.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6785.16471875,"end":6788.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6789.079718750001,"end":6790.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6790.632218750001,"end":6790.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6790.66596875,"end":6798.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6790.682843750001,"end":6791.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6793.399718750001,"end":6794.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6795.62721875,"end":6800.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6798.76596875,"end":6802.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6800.0653437500005,"end":6800.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6800.08221875,"end":6800.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6800.11596875,"end":6813.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6809.73471875,"end":6810.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6811.810343749999,"end":6812.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6813.362843750001,"end":6813.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6813.37971875,"end":6818.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6819.319718750001,"end":6832.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6821.36159375,"end":6821.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6833.342843750001,"end":6846.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6846.825968749999,"end":6853.390343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6853.778468750001,"end":6855.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6856.32659375,"end":6858.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6858.95909375,"end":6859.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6860.798468750001,"end":6861.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6862.13159375,"end":6864.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6865.23659375,"end":6867.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6868.257218750001,"end":6868.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6869.40471875,"end":6871.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6871.7840937500005,"end":6872.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6874.88909375,"end":6875.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6876.4247187500005,"end":6876.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6876.9647187499995,"end":6876.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6877.724093750001,"end":6877.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6877.74096875,"end":6884.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6883.073468750001,"end":6883.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6884.4403437500005,"end":6890.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6891.696593750001,"end":6893.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6892.860968750001,"end":6895.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6895.93221875,"end":6896.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6897.56909375,"end":6910.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6909.3309687500005,"end":6916.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6915.507218750001,"end":6931.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6932.63534375,"end":6934.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6935.40284375,"end":6936.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6937.579718750001,"end":6940.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6941.241593750001,"end":6943.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6944.4647187499995,"end":6967.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6968.8153437500005,"end":6969.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6971.295968750001,"end":6975.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6976.37534375,"end":6979.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6980.290343750001,"end":6986.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6987.10784375,"end":6989.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6990.34784375,"end":6991.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6992.72721875,"end":6995.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6995.88284375,"end":7000.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7000.97909375,"end":7006.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7006.817843750001,"end":7010.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7010.7665937500005,"end":7011.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7012.28534375,"end":7012.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7013.7197187500005,"end":7018.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7019.27159375,"end":7021.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7022.12346875,"end":7025.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7025.802218750001,"end":7037.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7037.54721875,"end":7051.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7053.89909375,"end":7056.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7056.76784375,"end":7058.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7058.53971875,"end":7059.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7058.624093750001,"end":7060.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7059.67034375,"end":7059.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7061.2059687500005,"end":7069.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7070.40284375,"end":7078.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7078.6884687500005,"end":7079.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7080.1903437500005,"end":7082.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7082.333468750001,"end":7084.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7086.82221875,"end":7087.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7087.716593749999,"end":7087.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7089.52221875,"end":7091.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7091.243468750001,"end":7093.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7095.42846875,"end":7096.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7096.03596875,"end":7096.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7099.073468750001,"end":7100.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7100.54159375,"end":7103.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7103.49471875,"end":7104.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7110.53159375,"end":7115.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7111.020968750001,"end":7111.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7111.679093750001,"end":7111.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7115.7459687499995,"end":7124.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7124.841593749999,"end":7129.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7129.80284375,"end":7133.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7132.722218750001,"end":7133.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7133.58284375,"end":7134.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7134.15659375,"end":7153.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7134.20721875,"end":7135.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7154.22096875,"end":7156.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7156.83659375,"end":7158.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7159.030343750001,"end":7163.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7163.95784375,"end":7168.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7168.868468750001,"end":7177.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7177.42409375,"end":7188.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7188.71346875,"end":7191.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7192.206593750001,"end":7230.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7230.327218750001,"end":7232.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7232.45346875,"end":7242.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7242.696593750001,"end":7250.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7250.425343750001,"end":7253.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7254.272843750001,"end":7257.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7257.5634687500005,"end":7272.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7271.53596875,"end":7274.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7272.885968750001,"end":7292.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7282.31909375,"end":7282.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7282.4540937500005,"end":7283.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7283.12909375,"end":7283.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7283.16284375,"end":7283.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7286.200343750001,"end":7286.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7292.35971875,"end":7293.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7292.477843750001,"end":7292.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7293.05159375,"end":7293.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7293.456593750001,"end":7293.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7293.54096875,"end":7293.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7293.94596875,"end":7299.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7300.08846875,"end":7314.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7314.14534375,"end":7316.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7316.1365937499995,"end":7321.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7321.31721875,"end":7327.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7324.33784375,"end":7325.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7327.42596875,"end":7327.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7327.442843750001,"end":7327.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7327.45971875,"end":7327.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7328.08409375,"end":7328.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7329.045968750001,"end":7338.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7338.47909375,"end":7362.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7362.745343750001,"end":7367.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7368.685343749999,"end":7370.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7370.82846875,"end":7383.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7377.561593750001,"end":7377.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7383.80534375,"end":7383.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7383.974093750001,"end":7384.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7384.04159375,"end":7393.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7393.23846875,"end":7393.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7393.45784375,"end":7401.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7401.72659375,"end":7406.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7406.53596875,"end":7408.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7409.0165937500005,"end":7420.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7416.0028437500005,"end":7416.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7416.9647187499995,"end":7417.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7420.42409375,"end":7443.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7420.8290937500005,"end":7420.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7420.862843750001,"end":7421.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7443.34034375,"end":7446.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7443.644093750001,"end":7444.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7445.17971875,"end":7453.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7453.88721875,"end":7463.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7463.522843750001,"end":7474.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7475.014718750001,"end":7494.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7495.41659375,"end":7515.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7515.784718750001,"end":7518.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7519.0584687499995,"end":7521.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7522.80471875,"end":7523.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7523.83409375,"end":7526.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7526.63534375,"end":7529.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7531.00596875,"end":7547.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7547.86409375,"end":7558.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7558.5965937500005,"end":7565.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7563.99659375,"end":7587.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7588.532843750001,"end":7593.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7593.274718750001,"end":7594.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7596.2615937499995,"end":7597.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7598.40471875,"end":7599.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7598.809718750001,"end":7601.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7603.450343750001,"end":7607.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7607.87159375,"end":7613.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7613.760968750001,"end":7624.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7625.53971875,"end":7626.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7625.92784375,"end":7631.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7631.12534375,"end":7639.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7640.49096875,"end":7644.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7644.591593749999,"end":7648.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7656.96096875,"end":7677.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7677.5653437500005,"end":7680.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7682.54346875,"end":7687.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7687.55534375,"end":7692.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7692.76971875,"end":7716.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7716.749093750001,"end":7718.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7719.280343750001,"end":7719.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7720.64721875,"end":7723.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7723.482218749999,"end":7727.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7727.81909375,"end":7735.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7733.4384687500005,"end":7733.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7734.80534375,"end":7737.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7738.46721875,"end":7739.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7740.44159375,"end":7745.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7746.280343750001,"end":7749.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7749.030968750001,"end":7751.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7752.70971875,"end":7755.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7755.780968750001,"end":7757.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7757.97471875,"end":7762.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7759.864718750001,"end":7765.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7766.88471875,"end":7776.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7776.8915937500005,"end":7790.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7791.53909375,"end":7792.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7793.04096875,"end":7793.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7793.07471875,"end":7795.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7795.75784375,"end":7795.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7795.909718750001,"end":7795.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7795.97721875,"end":7799.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7799.1834687499995,"end":7801.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7801.022843750001,"end":7808.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7811.434718750001,"end":7814.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7819.33221875,"end":7820.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7821.694718750001,"end":7822.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7828.32659375,"end":7838.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7838.434718750001,"end":7841.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7842.180968750001,"end":7844.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7845.134093750001,"end":7859.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7860.642218750001,"end":7863.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7863.89909375,"end":7870.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7871.661593750001,"end":7872.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7874.3447187500005,"end":7875.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7876.437218750001,"end":7882.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7883.575343750001,"end":7890.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7891.169093750001,"end":7896.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7896.80534375,"end":7902.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7902.91409375,"end":7909.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7910.575343750001,"end":7912.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7913.44409375,"end":7919.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7920.7509687500005,"end":7921.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7921.64534375,"end":7925.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7926.48846875,"end":7927.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7929.5428437499995,"end":7934.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7934.655968750001,"end":7943.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7944.29159375,"end":7944.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7946.249093750001,"end":7947.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7947.784718750001,"end":7950.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7951.260968750001,"end":7952.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7952.712218750001,"end":7954.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7955.96909375,"end":7960.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7961.0653437500005,"end":7962.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7964.69346875,"end":7968.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7969.637843750001,"end":7970.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7971.224093750001,"end":7971.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7972.860968750001,"end":7974.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7974.970343750001,"end":7981.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7981.5009687500005,"end":7983.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7984.352843750001,"end":7987.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7988.385968750001,"end":8003.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8004.24846875,"end":8005.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8006.88096875,"end":8007.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8010.795968750001,"end":8011.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8012.567843750001,"end":8016.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8015.4872187500005,"end":8016.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8016.29721875,"end":8018.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8018.30534375,"end":8020.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8020.70159375,"end":8021.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8022.4228437500005,"end":8034.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8035.78784375,"end":8043.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8044.03971875,"end":8057.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8057.759093750001,"end":8058.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8059.22721875,"end":8068.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8070.179093750001,"end":8078.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8079.29159375,"end":8083.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8084.45534375,"end":8095.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8096.53784375,"end":8117.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8118.374093750001,"end":8125.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8127.638468750001,"end":8144.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8140.682843750001,"end":8141.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8142.2353437500005,"end":8144.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8144.2772187499995,"end":8144.513468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8144.530343750001,"end":8149.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8149.42409375,"end":8159.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8159.667218750001,"end":8160.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8160.20721875,"end":8161.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8161.75971875,"end":8169.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8169.505343750001,"end":8182.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8182.819718750001,"end":8184.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8184.70971875,"end":8185.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8186.63346875,"end":8187.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8188.067843750001,"end":8210.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8210.59596875,"end":8214.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8214.949718750002,"end":8225.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8225.699093750001,"end":8235.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8236.38096875,"end":8241.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8241.56159375,"end":8254.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8254.825343750003,"end":8266.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8266.570343750001,"end":8271.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8272.105343750001,"end":8275.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8275.649093750002,"end":8294.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8295.22409375,"end":8313.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8314.42784375,"end":8323.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8322.88221875,"end":8333.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8328.14721875,"end":8329.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8331.269093750001,"end":8338.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8339.33534375,"end":8343.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8342.997218750003,"end":8346.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8347.317218750002,"end":8349.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8349.91596875,"end":8375.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8375.71784375,"end":8379.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8380.34159375,"end":8386.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8386.011593750001,"end":8391.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8387.344718750002,"end":8388.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8390.652218750001,"end":8403.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8404.540343750003,"end":8412.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8413.09596875,"end":8431.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8431.202843750001,"end":8445.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8445.74909375,"end":8453.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8454.01784375,"end":8457.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8457.66284375,"end":8462.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8463.535343750002,"end":8473.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8474.21721875,"end":8478.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8478.250343750002,"end":8479.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8480.528468750003,"end":8482.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8482.317218750002,"end":8490.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8491.78409375,"end":8497.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8498.93909375,"end":8517.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8518.04159375,"end":8524.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8518.09221875,"end":8518.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8525.04471875,"end":8529.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8528.976593750001,"end":8529.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8529.31409375,"end":8529.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8529.90471875,"end":8532.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8532.43596875,"end":8535.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8536.50284375,"end":8537.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8537.39721875,"end":8539.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8550.981593750003,"end":8556.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8557.64721875,"end":8558.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8558.406593750002,"end":8567.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8568.24471875,"end":8570.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8572.429718750001,"end":8573.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8573.273468750001,"end":8580.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8579.04471875,"end":8579.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8579.98971875,"end":8580.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8580.10784375,"end":8580.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8583.22971875,"end":8583.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8583.938468750002,"end":8584.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8584.680968750003,"end":8591.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8592.07221875,"end":8594.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8595.39659375,"end":8605.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8605.89284375,"end":8606.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8607.816593750002,"end":8620.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8621.687843750002,"end":8633.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8634.05721875,"end":8635.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8636.183468750001,"end":8642.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8643.81096875,"end":8645.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8646.49409375,"end":8656.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8656.83846875,"end":8663.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8663.90909375,"end":8675.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8675.82284375,"end":8676.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8678.489093750002,"end":8678.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8678.50596875,"end":8681.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8681.35784375,"end":8681.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8681.644718750002,"end":8681.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8681.712218750003,"end":8681.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8681.847218750001,"end":8682.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8683.399718750003,"end":8702.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8702.14784375,"end":8702.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8702.82284375,"end":8708.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8708.98221875,"end":8715.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8715.36096875,"end":8719.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8719.562843750002,"end":8720.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8720.929718750001,"end":8721.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8721.33471875,"end":8726.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8725.469093750002,"end":8725.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8725.85721875,"end":8725.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8726.059718750003,"end":8726.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8726.38034375,"end":8730.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8726.39721875,"end":8739.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8737.56846875,"end":8740.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8739.84659375,"end":8747.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8747.28846875,"end":8749.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8747.69346875,"end":8763.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8750.12346875,"end":8750.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8763.84284375,"end":8764.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8764.855343750001,"end":8765.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8766.72846875,"end":8767.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8768.43284375,"end":8769.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8770.035968750002,"end":8777.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8777.29221875,"end":8779.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8779.53659375,"end":8780.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8779.587218750003,"end":8780.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8780.70096875,"end":8786.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8785.83096875,"end":8788.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8787.92346875,"end":8798.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8798.16659375,"end":8801.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8802.672218750002,"end":8805.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8805.625343750002,"end":8809.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8809.40534375,"end":8828.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8829.55409375,"end":8829.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8830.48221875,"end":8849.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8850.10784375,"end":8851.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8852.284718750001,"end":8864.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8865.07596875,"end":8867.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8868.012218750002,"end":8868.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8868.94034375,"end":8877.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8879.132843750001,"end":8888.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8889.105968750002,"end":8890.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8890.65846875,"end":8891.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8893.493468750003,"end":8894.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8895.754718750002,"end":8898.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8899.450343750003,"end":8903.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8903.80409375,"end":8904.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8905.187843750002,"end":8909.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8911.212218750003,"end":8916.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8916.66284375,"end":8916.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8917.270343750002,"end":8917.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8917.962218750003,"end":8920.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8920.39221875,"end":8920.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8920.425968750002,"end":8920.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8920.72971875,"end":8922.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8922.855968750002,"end":8927.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8922.906593750002,"end":8924.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8927.41221875,"end":8928.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8930.972843750002,"end":8932.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8933.26784375,"end":8934.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8936.305343750002,"end":8951.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8952.50534375,"end":8954.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8954.56409375,"end":8955.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8956.133468750002,"end":8956.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8956.977218750002,"end":8957.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8957.93909375,"end":8957.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8957.95596875,"end":8958.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8958.20909375,"end":8959.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8959.79534375,"end":8962.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8961.837218750003,"end":8962.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8963.204093750002,"end":8967.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8966.74784375,"end":8967.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8967.38909375,"end":8967.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8967.473468750002,"end":8967.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8968.637843750003,"end":8969.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8969.211593750002,"end":8970.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8971.371593750002,"end":8972.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8972.519093750001,"end":8973.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8977.379093750002,"end":8977.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8978.98221875,"end":8979.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8979.03284375,"end":8979.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8979.04971875,"end":8979.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8979.42096875,"end":8979.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8979.45471875,"end":8979.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8979.89346875,"end":8980.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8980.04534375,"end":8980.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8980.14659375,"end":8981.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8981.024093750002,"end":8986.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8986.727843750003,"end":8987.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8987.706593750001,"end":8988.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8988.989093750002,"end":8989.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8990.49096875,"end":8996.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8996.414093750001,"end":9000.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9000.71721875,"end":9000.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9002.016593750002,"end":9011.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9013.035968750002,"end":9013.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9013.05284375,"end":9017.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9018.503468750001,"end":9020.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9022.215968750003,"end":9028.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9028.324718750002,"end":9029.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9029.03346875,"end":9029.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9030.906593750002,"end":9030.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9030.94034375,"end":9031.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9031.497218750003,"end":9032.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9032.72909375,"end":9035.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9039.52971875,"end":9039.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9040.05284375,"end":9041.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9041.53784375,"end":9044.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9045.06471875,"end":9046.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9046.97159375,"end":9047.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9049.18221875,"end":9051.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9049.40159375,"end":9050.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9052.35471875,"end":9052.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9053.24909375,"end":9054.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9058.750343750002,"end":9066.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9067.00221875,"end":9077.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9077.515343750001,"end":9082.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9083.25284375,"end":9095.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9085.31159375,"end":9086.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9096.43221875,"end":9105.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9097.15784375,"end":9100.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9106.270343750002,"end":9112.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9112.598468750002,"end":9117.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9118.74096875,"end":9120.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9122.031593750002,"end":9133.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9126.773468750001,"end":9129.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9130.06409375,"end":9131.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9131.49846875,"end":9131.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9131.937218750001,"end":9132.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9133.995968750001,"end":9136.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9137.45534375,"end":9139.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9139.56471875,"end":9139.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9139.71659375,"end":9139.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9139.969718750002,"end":9141.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9142.011593750001,"end":9158.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9145.977218750002,"end":9146.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9146.01096875,"end":9147.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9147.47909375,"end":9147.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9147.597218750001,"end":9147.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9147.816593750002,"end":9151.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9151.613468750002,"end":9154.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9158.97096875,"end":9160.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9160.86096875,"end":9160.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9161.24909375,"end":9161.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9161.519093750001,"end":9161.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9162.329093750002,"end":9162.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9162.34596875,"end":9163.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9163.45971875,"end":9163.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9164.10096875,"end":9164.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9164.910968750002,"end":9175.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9176.85846875,"end":9194.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9194.77971875,"end":9195.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9195.437843750002,"end":9197.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9198.52596875,"end":9199.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9200.04471875,"end":9201.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9202.356593750003,"end":9202.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9202.89659375,"end":9204.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9206.659718750001,"end":9209.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9209.106593750003,"end":9209.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9209.460968750001,"end":9209.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9210.01784375,"end":9215.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9215.29971875,"end":9216.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9217.34159375,"end":9220.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9220.328468750002,"end":9231.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9232.394093750001,"end":9233.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9235.937843750002,"end":9243.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9243.329093750002,"end":9247.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9248.52659375,"end":9250.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9250.88909375,"end":9260.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9254.618468750003,"end":9257.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9259.140968750002,"end":9259.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9259.664093750001,"end":9260.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9260.575343750003,"end":9261.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9261.300968750002,"end":9272.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9273.585968750001,"end":9274.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9274.51409375,"end":9278.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9278.969093750002,"end":9279.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9279.69471875,"end":9280.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9282.27659375,"end":9285.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9282.512843750003,"end":9282.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9283.710968750001,"end":9284.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9285.28034375,"end":9305.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9306.087218750003,"end":9314.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9316.11096875,"end":9317.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9318.01784375,"end":9322.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9323.18159375,"end":9327.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9328.800968750002,"end":9330.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9331.382843750001,"end":9337.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9333.593468750001,"end":9339.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9337.74471875,"end":9338.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9339.347843750002,"end":9346.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9343.33034375,"end":9344.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9344.207843750002,"end":9356.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9358.821593750003,"end":9370.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9368.828468750002,"end":9376.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9377.417843750001,"end":9377.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9377.434718750003,"end":9378.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9377.485343750002,"end":9383.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9382.547843750002,"end":9407.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9408.56909375,"end":9414.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9415.57221875,"end":9416.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9416.972843750002,"end":9417.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9417.344093750002,"end":9429.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9429.477218750002,"end":9429.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9429.629093750002,"end":9431.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9432.81846875,"end":9434.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9435.687218750001,"end":9436.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9437.25659375,"end":9445.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9448.63034375,"end":9457.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9854.71034375,"end":9861.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9867.687218750001,"end":9870.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9877.559093750002,"end":9878.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9881.406593750002,"end":9882.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9882.68909375,"end":9923.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9926.867843750002,"end":9939.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9928.437218750001,"end":9928.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9939.59159375,"end":9961.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9963.11534375,"end":9964.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9963.28409375,"end":9965.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9965.24159375,"end":9966.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9968.937218750001,"end":9969.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9972.19409375,"end":9978.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9979.281593750002,"end":9986.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9987.128468750001,"end":9988.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9990.824093750001,"end":9992.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9993.18659375,"end":9993.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9994.097843750002,"end":9996.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9997.55721875,"end":9999.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9998.519093750001,"end":9999.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9999.44721875,"end":10002.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10001.860343750002,"end":10001.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10001.894093750001,"end":10002.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10002.14721875,"end":10004.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10005.30284375,"end":10007.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10008.00284375,"end":10018.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10020.91221875,"end":10022.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10022.954093750002,"end":10023.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10024.33784375,"end":10027.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10027.93221875,"end":10031.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10031.492843750002,"end":10033.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10033.332218750002,"end":10040.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10040.655968750001,"end":10044.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10044.63846875,"end":10046.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10046.832218750002,"end":10050.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10051.33784375,"end":10075.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10076.093468750001,"end":10082.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10082.97846875,"end":10091.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10091.871593750002,"end":10098.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10099.53284375,"end":10100.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10100.37659375,"end":10100.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10101.11909375,"end":10101.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10102.33409375,"end":10106.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10106.99159375,"end":10108.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10109.13471875,"end":10111.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10111.581593750001,"end":10113.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10113.488468750002,"end":10116.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10116.57659375,"end":10118.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10118.46659375,"end":10119.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10119.79971875,"end":10120.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10120.57596875,"end":10122.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10123.05659375,"end":10124.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10125.23346875,"end":10126.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10126.95471875,"end":10129.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10129.80659375,"end":10131.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10131.59534375,"end":10132.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10132.87784375,"end":10133.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10133.805968750003,"end":10134.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10135.155968750001,"end":10135.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10136.168468750002,"end":10136.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10137.41721875,"end":10138.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10138.952843750001,"end":10142.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10142.78346875,"end":10144.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10145.36534375,"end":10146.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10147.829093750002,"end":10150.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10151.49096875,"end":10157.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10152.11534375,"end":10153.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10153.02659375,"end":10155.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10157.886593750001,"end":10159.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10159.472843750002,"end":10175.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10176.48284375,"end":10177.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10178.17034375,"end":10178.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10180.70159375,"end":10185.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10186.169093750003,"end":10187.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10188.41346875,"end":10193.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10194.42096875,"end":10196.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10196.496593750002,"end":10200.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10200.73221875,"end":10201.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10202.53784375,"end":10205.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10205.37284375,"end":10225.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10225.133468750002,"end":10225.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10226.230343750001,"end":10227.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10229.301593750002,"end":10232.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10232.558468750001,"end":10235.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10236.102218750002,"end":10238.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10238.66721875,"end":10242.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10251.79596875,"end":10261.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10257.63471875,"end":10258.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10260.925343750001,"end":10261.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10261.17846875,"end":10261.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10261.617218750001,"end":10263.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10263.473468750002,"end":10263.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10265.61659375,"end":10265.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10266.13971875,"end":10269.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10270.425968750002,"end":10271.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10271.472218750001,"end":10295.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10295.485343750002,"end":10330.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10331.46284375,"end":10361.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10361.63534375,"end":10362.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10362.79971875,"end":10366.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10366.20846875,"end":10368.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10368.28409375,"end":10369.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10370.157218750002,"end":10392.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10373.160968750002,"end":10373.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10392.837218750003,"end":10405.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10396.094093750002,"end":10397.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10400.34659375,"end":10400.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10401.426593750002,"end":10402.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10403.367218750001,"end":10417.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10405.29096875,"end":10405.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10405.915343750003,"end":10405.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10405.93221875,"end":10407.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10408.14284375,"end":10408.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10418.09909375,"end":10423.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10423.48221875,"end":10432.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10431.59909375,"end":10438.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10439.51346875,"end":10476.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10445.41971875,"end":10445.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10446.027218750001,"end":10446.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10446.48284375,"end":10446.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10475.524718750003,"end":10509.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10478.477843750003,"end":10479.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10494.593468750001,"end":10494.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10494.72846875,"end":10495.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10495.032218750002,"end":10495.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10495.20096875,"end":10495.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10495.403468750003,"end":10495.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10495.52159375,"end":10495.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10510.87784375,"end":10531.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10532.629718750002,"end":10533.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10534.317218750002,"end":10555.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10554.938468750002,"end":10574.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10575.32346875,"end":10578.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10578.74909375,"end":10593.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10593.430343750002,"end":10598.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10596.24846875,"end":10597.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10598.62784375,"end":10650.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10602.036593750003,"end":10602.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10605.27659375,"end":10606.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10651.21034375,"end":10659.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10660.390343750001,"end":10663.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10663.815968750001,"end":10708.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10708.804718750001,"end":10710.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10711.09971875,"end":10720.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10721.190968750001,"end":10725.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10725.780968750001,"end":10739.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10739.871593750002,"end":10742.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10742.48721875,"end":10742.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10742.90909375,"end":10758.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10743.11159375,"end":10744.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10750.06409375,"end":10750.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10750.18221875,"end":10750.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10759.29471875,"end":10779.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10779.426593750002,"end":10816.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10817.58096875,"end":10832.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10825.15784375,"end":10825.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10833.17346875,"end":10840.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10839.72096875,"end":10843.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10844.614718750003,"end":10849.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10846.53846875,"end":10847.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10847.68596875,"end":10848.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10849.06971875,"end":10856.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10855.094093750002,"end":10860.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10858.77284375,"end":10869.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10864.24034375,"end":10864.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10869.40409375,"end":10869.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10869.910343750002,"end":10886.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10886.17784375,"end":10886.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10886.262218750002,"end":10887.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10886.27909375,"end":10887.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10887.17346875,"end":10887.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10888.067843750003,"end":10890.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10890.86909375,"end":10892.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10893.265343750001,"end":10895.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10896.40409375,"end":10900.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10914.56159375,"end":10917.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10919.640968750002,"end":10923.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10923.57284375,"end":10925.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10931.453468750002,"end":10932.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10933.96784375,"end":10936.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10937.258468750002,"end":10939.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10938.945968750002,"end":10940.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10940.02596875,"end":10946.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10947.02909375,"end":10965.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10966.45221875,"end":10971.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10972.442843750003,"end":10978.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10978.399718750003,"end":10986.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10986.364718750003,"end":11004.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10999.66221875,"end":10999.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10999.965968750003,"end":11000.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11004.99471875,"end":11019.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11019.827843750001,"end":11031.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11032.129718750002,"end":11034.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11034.52596875,"end":11036.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11037.040343750003,"end":11037.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11037.90096875,"end":11040.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11041.343468750001,"end":11047.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11047.82346875,"end":11056.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11056.581593750001,"end":11071.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11071.80284375,"end":11073.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11074.13159375,"end":11086.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11087.46284375,"end":11088.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11088.25596875,"end":11089.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11089.94346875,"end":11095.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11096.01846875,"end":11110.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11111.290343750003,"end":11111.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11111.72909375,"end":11113.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11115.171593750001,"end":11118.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11118.833468750003,"end":11119.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11119.57596875,"end":11122.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11122.613468750002,"end":11125.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11127.92909375,"end":11131.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11131.641593750002,"end":11131.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11132.19846875,"end":11133.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11133.784718750001,"end":11135.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11135.97846875,"end":11141.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11137.26096875,"end":11137.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11137.277843750002,"end":11137.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11142.171593750001,"end":11144.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11144.53409375,"end":11146.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11146.761593750001,"end":11147.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11147.80784375,"end":11149.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11149.96784375,"end":11152.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11152.836593750002,"end":11155.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11155.55346875,"end":11158.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11159.70471875,"end":11162.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11162.60721875,"end":11164.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11164.581593750001,"end":11166.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11166.640343750001,"end":11168.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11168.817218750002,"end":11169.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11169.52596875,"end":11172.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11172.546593750001,"end":11175.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11175.938468750002,"end":11178.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11178.739718750003,"end":11182.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11179.617218750001,"end":11189.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11187.02534375,"end":11194.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11195.243468750003,"end":11200.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11200.609718750002,"end":11201.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11201.90909375,"end":11202.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11202.70221875,"end":11204.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11205.26721875,"end":11205.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11205.28409375,"end":11207.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11207.96721875,"end":11208.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11209.23284375,"end":11211.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11211.86534375,"end":11211.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11213.02971875,"end":11218.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11218.36221875,"end":11222.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11218.395968750003,"end":11220.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11222.715968750003,"end":11223.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11224.36971875,"end":11226.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11225.43284375,"end":11226.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11226.968468750001,"end":11246.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11228.149718750003,"end":11229.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11234.410343750002,"end":11234.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11246.442218750002,"end":11246.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11246.796593750001,"end":11246.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11247.35346875,"end":11262.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11263.519718750002,"end":11275.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11264.515343750001,"end":11264.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11264.582843750002,"end":11266.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11266.675343750001,"end":11266.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11266.87784375,"end":11267.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11275.93971875,"end":11276.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11277.036593750003,"end":11278.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11279.43284375,"end":11280.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11280.462218750003,"end":11281.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11281.49159375,"end":11282.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11283.044093750003,"end":11286.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11286.469718750002,"end":11291.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11292.105968750002,"end":11298.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11298.231593750003,"end":11298.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11298.265343750001,"end":11298.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11298.282218750002,"end":11298.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11298.67034375,"end":11298.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11298.974093750003,"end":11307.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11307.664718750002,"end":11317.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11318.12721875,"end":11319.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11320.40534375,"end":11321.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11321.519093750001,"end":11324.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11324.03346875,"end":11324.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11324.94471875,"end":11337.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11337.58409375,"end":11345.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11346.325343750003,"end":11377.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11378.117843750002,"end":11379.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11381.25659375,"end":11409.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11410.028468750003,"end":11414.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11414.972843750002,"end":11417.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11417.33534375,"end":11417.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11418.449093750001,"end":11419.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11419.461593750002,"end":11427.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11427.426593750002,"end":11427.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11428.995968750001,"end":11430.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11430.34596875,"end":11430.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11432.67471875,"end":11436.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11436.37034375,"end":11438.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11438.867843750002,"end":11440.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11441.36534375,"end":11446.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11448.21659375,"end":11448.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11448.23346875,"end":11448.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11448.520343750002,"end":11452.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11453.07659375,"end":11461.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11461.73346875,"end":11464.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11464.180343750002,"end":11467.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11467.977218750002,"end":11471.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11471.80784375,"end":11474.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11474.625968750002,"end":11509.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11493.27284375,"end":11493.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11509.03409375,"end":11509.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11509.33784375,"end":11526.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11527.562843750002,"end":11529.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11530.70159375,"end":11531.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11531.258468750002,"end":11532.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11532.777218750001,"end":11539.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11540.18534375,"end":11541.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11541.56909375,"end":11543.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11544.083468750003,"end":11544.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11545.281593750002,"end":11553.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11554.32659375,"end":11565.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11566.324718750002,"end":11578.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11578.761593750001,"end":11579.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11580.128468750001,"end":11581.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11582.28846875,"end":11584.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11585.410343750002,"end":11587.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11588.042843750001,"end":11589.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11589.46034375,"end":11591.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11592.177218750003,"end":11595.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11596.34534375,"end":11599.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11599.73721875,"end":11603.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11603.719718750002,"end":11604.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11604.79971875,"end":11610.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11610.672218750002,"end":11614.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11615.160968750002,"end":11617.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11618.097218750001,"end":11618.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11619.210968750001,"end":11622.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11623.19346875,"end":11625.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11627.192843750003,"end":11631.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11631.37784375,"end":11633.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11633.16659375,"end":11642.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11642.937218750001,"end":11651.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11652.31971875,"end":11654.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11654.378468750001,"end":11655.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11656.15034375,"end":11665.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11666.32596875,"end":11667.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11667.794093750003,"end":11668.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11668.958468750003,"end":11674.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11674.45971875,"end":11674.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11676.61971875,"end":11676.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11676.636593750001,"end":11681.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11682.171593750001,"end":11682.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11684.078468750002,"end":11688.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11688.786593750003,"end":11689.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11689.12409375,"end":11689.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11689.242218750001,"end":11690.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11690.507843750001,"end":11690.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11690.71034375,"end":11690.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11690.727218750002,"end":11690.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11690.74409375,"end":11691.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11691.030968750001,"end":11692.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11693.24159375,"end":11727.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11711.83784375,"end":11712.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11728.67909375,"end":11735.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11736.070343750001,"end":11739.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11740.17096875,"end":11742.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11743.10721875,"end":11748.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11749.28346875,"end":11751.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11752.169093750003,"end":11764.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11765.179718750001,"end":11765.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11766.36096875,"end":11770.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11771.153468750003,"end":11775.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11776.199093750001,"end":11776.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11777.61659375,"end":11781.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11782.66221875,"end":11783.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11783.759093750003,"end":11788.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11790.40784375,"end":11792.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11792.399093750002,"end":11797.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11797.91721875,"end":11799.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11799.891593750002,"end":11804.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11804.59971875,"end":11810.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11811.315968750001,"end":11814.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11814.690968750001,"end":11814.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11814.859718750002,"end":11824.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11817.964718750001,"end":11818.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11818.79159375,"end":11818.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11819.247218750003,"end":11819.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11821.289093750001,"end":11821.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11824.714718750001,"end":11833.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11834.215343750002,"end":11846.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11846.80409375,"end":11848.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11848.305968750003,"end":11849.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11851.02284375,"end":11852.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11852.946593750003,"end":11854.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11855.37659375,"end":11856.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11856.49034375,"end":11857.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11858.29596875,"end":11863.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11863.645343750002,"end":11872.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11873.09534375,"end":11897.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11898.67784375,"end":11900.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11901.63096875,"end":11905.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11905.84971875,"end":11909.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11909.781593750002,"end":11918.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11919.04596875,"end":11923.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11923.63596875,"end":11924.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11925.47534375,"end":11926.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11926.977218750002,"end":11928.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11929.440968750001,"end":11930.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11930.85846875,"end":11931.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11932.984718750002,"end":11939.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11939.70096875,"end":11943.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11943.81846875,"end":11946.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11946.51846875,"end":11949.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11950.51784375,"end":11962.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11962.988468750002,"end":11965.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11965.80659375,"end":11966.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11966.532218750002,"end":11974.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11974.93596875,"end":11985.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11986.562843750002,"end":11990.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11990.528468750003,"end":11996.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11996.586593750002,"end":12010.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12010.440968750001,"end":12016.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12016.937843750002,"end":12044.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12045.16971875,"end":12046.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12047.464718750001,"end":12053.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12053.708468750003,"end":12061.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12062.11221875,"end":12068.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12068.659718750001,"end":12070.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12071.29221875,"end":12073.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12084.40409375,"end":12092.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12092.976593750001,"end":12094.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12094.54596875,"end":12097.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12098.29221875,"end":12103.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12116.85471875,"end":12121.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12121.731593750003,"end":12130.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12128.211593750002,"end":12128.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12130.253468750001,"end":12131.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12131.417843750001,"end":12141.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12141.188468750002,"end":12141.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12143.11221875,"end":12210.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12211.540343750003,"end":12291.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12292.219718750002,"end":12320.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12320.586593750002,"end":12328.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12324.552218750003,"end":12324.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12324.61971875,"end":12324.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12328.31534375,"end":12334.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12333.023468750001,"end":12333.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12334.20471875,"end":12360.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12361.238468750002,"end":12370.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12370.722218750001,"end":12419.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12420.01409375,"end":12422.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12422.140343750001,"end":12424.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12424.739093750002,"end":12425.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12425.39721875,"end":12427.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12425.54909375,"end":12425.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12427.50659375,"end":12462.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12462.589718750001,"end":12467.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12468.64784375,"end":12485.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12486.383468750002,"end":12512.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12512.97846875,"end":12513.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12513.94034375,"end":12513.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12514.058468750001,"end":12544.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12545.395343750002,"end":12545.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12545.41221875,"end":12551.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12551.976593750001,"end":12567.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12567.51846875,"end":12567.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12568.26096875,"end":12568.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12568.277843750002,"end":12568.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12569.13846875,"end":12598.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12599.10846875,"end":12599.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12599.95221875,"end":12610.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12611.106593750003,"end":12658.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12658.035968750002,"end":12679.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12661.10721875,"end":12661.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12679.804718750001,"end":12700.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12701.50596875,"end":12709.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12709.487843750001,"end":12722.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12723.308468750001,"end":12739.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12740.11596875,"end":12747.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12747.945968750002,"end":12752.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12753.008468750002,"end":12756.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12756.974093750003,"end":12789.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12789.25596875,"end":12799.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12799.634093750003,"end":12799.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12799.937843750002,"end":12800.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12800.039093750001,"end":12800.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12800.730968750002,"end":12806.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12811.159718750001,"end":12812.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12813.94409375,"end":12814.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12816.441593750002,"end":12817.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12817.352843750003,"end":12817.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12818.820968750002,"end":12836.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12837.113468750002,"end":12866.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12866.99909375,"end":12876.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12876.68534375,"end":12877.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12878.558468750001,"end":12883.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12883.958468750003,"end":12887.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12887.92409375,"end":12905.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12899.36534375,"end":12899.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12905.37284375,"end":12916.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12907.296593750001,"end":12907.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12917.25284375,"end":12920.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12920.72909375,"end":12921.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12921.505343750003,"end":12922.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12922.973468750002,"end":12923.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12923.93534375,"end":12927.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12927.782843750003,"end":12931.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12931.815968750001,"end":12950.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12933.01409375,"end":12933.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12951.32346875,"end":12961.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12961.60034375,"end":12964.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12964.840343750002,"end":12968.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12968.35034375,"end":12969.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12969.700343750003,"end":12976.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12973.83471875,"end":12974.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12975.505343750003,"end":12977.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12977.969093750002,"end":12984.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12983.43659375,"end":12986.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12986.946593750003,"end":12995.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12990.54096875,"end":12991.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12995.856593750003,"end":12998.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12998.742218750001,"end":13003.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13003.484093750001,"end":13029.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13028.88096875,"end":13039.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13039.157843750003,"end":13070.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13039.765343750001,"end":13039.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13070.798468750003,"end":13070.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13070.81534375,"end":13078.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13079.08409375,"end":13083.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13084.079093750002,"end":13088.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13088.41596875,"end":13090.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13091.06534375,"end":13095.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13095.65534375,"end":13103.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13103.839718750001,"end":13109.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13109.594093750002,"end":13115.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13115.63534375,"end":13123.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13123.22909375,"end":13130.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13130.789093750001,"end":13131.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13131.29534375,"end":13144.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13143.934718750003,"end":13145.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13145.082218750002,"end":13159.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13145.11596875,"end":13145.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13160.016593750002,"end":13160.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13160.03346875,"end":13160.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13160.050343750001,"end":13163.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13160.117843750002,"end":13160.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13160.13471875,"end":13160.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13160.421593750001,"end":13161.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13161.079718750003,"end":13161.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13161.09659375,"end":13162.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13164.437843750002,"end":13169.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13170.192218750002,"end":13173.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13174.05659375,"end":13177.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13178.039093750001,"end":13178.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13180.064093750003,"end":13180.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13181.22846875,"end":13185.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13185.46409375,"end":13186.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13188.079718750003,"end":13188.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13189.379093750002,"end":13198.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13207.23284375,"end":13208.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13208.65034375,"end":13209.831593750001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1906.722,"end":1915.604,"text":"報告委員會出席委員9人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開始開會我們先進行報告事項先宣讀上次的會議意思錄"},{"start":1916.448,"end":1933.01,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年10月23日星期三上午九十一分至十二時四十三分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員黃文國昌等十二人列席委員張文齊凱等十八人"},{"start":1933.55,"end":1958.358,"text":"列席官員司法院副秘書長黃玲倫等人主席吳昭吉委員鐘憲報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二要請司法院秘書長法務部部長法務部聯政署署長法務部調查局局長內政部警政署署長國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員率所屬相關單位列席就如何破除偵查大公開以兼顧犯罪偵查及人權保障進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1960.399,"end":1974.347,"text":"本次會議有委員黃國昌等14人提出質詢委員林思敏等2人提出書面質詢決定一報告集群答完畢二委員質詢是要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢請問各位上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1982.858,"end":1986.379,"text":"則要介紹道場的官員司法院黃副秘書長法務部政部長最高檢察署刑檢察總長廉政署的馮署長"},{"start":2012.588,"end":2015.33,"text":"其餘未介紹的列席代表我們請參與名單就不再逐一介紹並且列入公報的記錄"},{"start":2031.533,"end":2052.695,"text":"那本次議程討論事項排定並安審查台灣民眾黨及委員鍾佳濱等人分別擬具刑事訴訟法部分修正草案等兩案那我們現在進行提案說明及報告先進行提案說明發言時間3分鐘我們請提案人鍾佳濱召委進行提案說明"},{"start":2059.751,"end":2074.37,"text":"主席在場委員先進列席政務局案長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生關於刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十本席領銜提出修正提案那麼重點在於"},{"start":2074.932,"end":2101.01,"text":"在為了彰顯政府打擊詐騙我們立法院也落實法治規範那麼引進了高科技的偵查犯罪行為包括透過GPS透過M化車等科技偵查工具為了要取得這樣的證據在法院審理時具有證據能力那麼在今年7月的時候我們成功的三讀通過了刑事訴訟法的科技偵查專章"},{"start":2102.111,"end":2125.17,"text":"那麼授權給檢警在偵查時能使用運用高科技的工具避免落後於詐騙集團人家笑的說說我們偵辦者的科技能力追不上詐騙集團的進步那麼受到科技偵查的人民如果認為自己的權利受到侵犯那麼目前依照刑事訴訟法第153條之10條可以對於法官"},{"start":2129.366,"end":2151.377,"text":"或檢察官准許的科技偵查手段提出救濟。然而在目前通過之後學界就有批評因為司法警察也有可能是發動科技偵查的主體然而我們在通過的條文文藝上卻僅限於法官檢察官他的科技偵查民眾才能針對他們二者的科技偵查才能提出救濟"},{"start":2152.177,"end":2162.461,"text":"因此本次提案的重點是將法官檢察官修改成只要是對民眾對於科技偵查的處分不符都能夠進行救濟以上說明好謝謝那我們現在就由機關代表進行報告那報告時間三分鐘我們先請司法院副秘書長報告"},{"start":2181.64,"end":2195.039,"text":"主席各位委員首先感謝大院讓司法院就這個刑事法這個特殊擔當處分的這個究竟能夠有機會來做個說明那麼首先跟各位報告各位報告我們"},{"start":2196.8,"end":2213.626,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":2213.746,"end":2239.365,"text":"那個像剛才一百那個一五三之十第十條一五三之十條目前規定雖然說法官檢察官那司法警察雖然好像沒有規定進去但是跟各位報告這是基於說將來將來如果說這一個比較像那一五三的這個之一的這個地項的沒有超過二十四小時後沒有超過兩天連續沒有超過兩天這一種比較短期"},{"start":2240.646,"end":2265.305,"text":"因嚮比較小的這一種處分的話將來如果有爭執他還是會到後續的本案訴訟裡面去斟酌到底要不要采為證據也就是依照我們刑事訴訟158之4去做斟酌甚至如果說這些機關本身有一些與法不合的行為還是有後續的民事國家賠償甚至行政責任要去做追究所以並不會說對這些行為沒有救濟"},{"start":2269.008,"end":2276.931,"text":"只是說不是在前階段救濟因為前階段救濟目前各位可以參考我們的書面的這個比較法前階段救濟到最後只是宣告一個違法還是沒有真正具體的效果一樣要等到後階段的這個本案訴訟去救濟那麼我們是斟酌說司法的量能有限你既然在後階段的那個本案訴訟中也要去斟酌他的證據能力的話那麼"},{"start":2291.295,"end":2314.122,"text":"是不是在後端一起判斷就好不會沒有救濟而是顧及到這個司法量能做一個成績化的這個救濟處理那這個是跟各位報告那目前委員們所提的這個法案最主要當然民眾黨所提的這個153之十刪除然後增訂404跟416的這個部分剛才跟各位報告過但是民眾黨的部分我們更顧慮說是直接定在416"},{"start":2315.282,"end":2315.422,"text":"議員鍾委員提"},{"start":2334.952,"end":2357.766,"text":"直接修153之十當然剛剛各位報告過但是今天假設說大院是決定說要在前階段就給一個暫時性的宣告因為那個宣告你後面還是一樣要做本案的處理宣告違法本身並沒有直接法律效果那我們參考比較法上面很多國家規範是不一致的但是這一部分如何決定我們尊重大院的這個意見那至於說民眾黨建議那個刪除那個刑訴245之1增定416"},{"start":2362.509,"end":2381.391,"text":"的這一部分他們是認為說這部分到底那個辯護人的筆記權是獨立還是非獨立那這一點產生疑問但是跟各位報告其實在依照憲判七跟憲判三其實辯護人的這些抗告權當然都不能違背被告的這個民事的意思"},{"start":2382.012,"end":2382.752,"text":" （刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":2402.06,"end":2425.752,"text":"被制止他不能當場自己自己抗告沒有違背被告的民事意識不能當場要等被告去抗告那他有沒有那個時間有沒有那個時間就有差別所以我們認為都不是獨立的但是因為時效的原因他可以自己在第一時間就先提出抗告那這個差別在這邊跟各位報告以上"},{"start":2430.071,"end":2433.366,"text":"好謝謝那下一位我們請法務部政部長進行報告"},{"start":2439.592,"end":2467.025,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會代表本部列席報告並被質詢至報告如下第一有關台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的草案部分就草案第一五三之十第二四五之一第四零四條第四一六條部分這邊依請在座最主要是四一六的規定前面擴大準抗告的課題將造成受處分人對同一行為"},{"start":2468.385,"end":2493.32,"text":"例如說所扣押可分別對偵查輔助機關檢查案法官從無提出究竟造成裁決的一個其一的現象第二草案刪除本法第153之十規定自本章的執法至授權規定亦一併遭到刪除第三有關偵查輔助機關所謂科技偵查處分的究竟建立修正本法153之十擴大究竟課題即可保障受處分的究竟前"},{"start":2494.341,"end":2510.146,"text":"第2舊草案228條之一已進行在座因偵查中的詢問互以被告犯罪嫌疑人隨時通信自由。這個會嚴重因緩害偵查順利進行及真實發現以偵查不公開原則有違,且有篡過面證之餘。"},{"start":2511.926,"end":2524.955,"text":"再來就是到場的一個方式由羈押的原因的必要齁這個都是屬於不同的一個階段不同層次的問題沒有自沒有無檢察官先決定申請羈押為規避本法93條24小時的一個規定齁"},{"start":2528.177,"end":2554.956,"text":"那草案的修正理由是對偵查師有所誤解。第三具體個案中檢查是否開立船票簽話機票竟依法為之如認為有違法實質控制而不當延長24小時小拘捕期限亦得依法救濟。第四草案規定是現行法規運作的當然結果。如依草案的內容對其他強制處分是否應同等立法有從規範增熱必要。"},{"start":2557.185,"end":2574.617,"text":"再請斟酌那有關於鍾佳濱委員等19人擬具的草案部分草案規定造成辯護人救濟權就是獨立救濟或代理救濟權定性不明那所謂賦予救濟權為獨立救濟權將造成犯罪極點組成"},{"start":2575.718,"end":2589.929,"text":"可透過公範委任辯論的手段稅刑盯梢、刺探偵查的作為的一個目的。那為杜絕爭議符合權力必有究竟原則建立修正條文為受調查人對於本章制裁定或處分不符則。"},{"start":2591.243,"end":2620.126,"text":"得依本法第四篇規定向該管法院提起看告或申請徹效或變更之透過本法第四篇的一個規定辯護人可依同法第四一九條準用三四六條的規定確定辯護人的救濟權及代理救濟權這個就可以避免定性不明及獨立救濟所凶的前任的一個弊端最後本部再次對大院費心修法表達感佩之意以上報告敬請各位委員先進質疑謝謝"},{"start":2624.398,"end":2627.259,"text":"主席各位先進各位早安最高檢察署的意見"},{"start":2655.79,"end":2666.46,"text":"這個就在我們今天所附的資料那主席這個是我要再說明還是說因為今天我們部裡面跟司法院是主政機關"},{"start":2675.527,"end":2684.531,"text":"總統,不知道總統有沒有可以進行口頭報告三分鐘。如果總統說沒有,就一切由書面也可以。那其餘列席我看有時間的關係,所以其餘列席的"},{"start":2693.32,"end":2718.202,"text":"報告者如果沒有口頭需要補充報告的話就請參閱書面那機關代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容均列入公報記錄那提案說明及報告機關報告已經進行完畢那我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘必要時的延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為五分鐘那不再延長"},{"start":2718.943,"end":2742.89,"text":"上午10點30分截止發言登記。那我們現在請登記第一位的莊瑞雄委員進行詢答。謝謝召委。有請我們法務部正部長。麻煩部長。還有我們警政署。署長。行政警察局局長也請上台。局長。"},{"start":2745.8,"end":2749.023,"text":"總長來了,請總長也上台。麻煩總長。我就沒有一一稱呼啦,不一定,總長。我想昨天您知道長什麼大的字嗎?你們的感受。"},{"start":2773.867,"end":2787.839,"text":"昨天這個大家都認為阿是我在網路上很多阿都是黃柳的大豐收日阿那我我一下來就教你們搶答好了秋刀魚的滋味貓和你都想了解知道這首歌誰唱了舉手你感覺怎樣"},{"start":2794.224,"end":2797.947,"text":"但是重點不在這裡啦 重點是搶到票的滋味大部分的歌迷都沒有辦法了解 這個才是重點"},{"start":2813.758,"end":2830.274,"text":"為什麼連這個總長都請你上來了這不是小事情這是大事情對民眾來講的話如果說一場受到民眾大家都喜愛的一個演唱會然後大多數的人很公平的然後要去買這個票很公平"},{"start":2835.134,"end":2837.915,"text":"我昨天的票這樣開慢以後在短短的20分鐘裡面就被搶光了那我想很多你們可能也要稍微注意一下很多歌迷就在臉書上講他說要在臉書上辦活動就算"},{"start":2855.74,"end":2870.306,"text":"爬到大巨蛋的下水道去聽周杰倫的演唱會這是很嚴重的事你知道嗎那當然我要接下來要請教各位的就是說我先撇開黃牛票的違法不談來看看一下投影片這個就涉及到我們的你看在62萬人的一個臉書裡面你看如果你是歌迷買不到票的話"},{"start":2884.107,"end":2906.68,"text":"他秀上這樣的一個一個訊息上去你很有可能啊你很有可能喔這西裝的刮白他可能這個時候搶不到票理智縣都已經斷了一半啊很有可能馬上就去匯款囉一張這樣4880齁對吧4880是還好喔你看他說這四張的四張這樣兩萬塊就輕易我如果詐騙他如果詐騙集團齁輕易的就到手囉"},{"start":2913.737,"end":2925.231,"text":"今天就到手了那我要就教於各位的就是說我們在去年喔去年我們修法這樣子通過了以後"},{"start":2926.499,"end":2943.731,"text":"那是不是各位有沒有辦法去想到說我們除了主動的讓我們的消費大眾來做一個檢舉歌名來檢舉以外還有沒有什麼辦法來加速提升整個執法的一個效率因為我們在去年文化創意的產業發展條例文化創意產這個發展條條例發展法"},{"start":2950.799,"end":2973.203,"text":"我們通過以後啊是說你用掃票機器人或者是用外掛的程式你如果用這樣的方式搶票的話這不正的手法三年以下有期徒刑甚至罰到三百萬可是問題是我們立法了我們立法了以後我們是說規定這樣的一個犯罪的一個太陽啊可是問題是有犯罪太陽可是你怎麼執行總長你怎麼知道"},{"start":2978.632,"end":2986.838,"text":"您可能比較屬於指揮啊可能第一線會在署長張署長您家跟刑事檢察局局長家。署長您有被搶到票嗎?也是搶不到啊。啊你也搶不到?你期望值有改變?"},{"start":2992.642,"end":2996.203,"text":"那當然啦,這一般的民眾也是這樣。你也有可能也是歌迷啦,大家都喜歡聽啦。因為會把這一些像周杰倫啊,這些大牌的就是大家要聽他的歌嘛,做他的歌賣,這個沒有什麼不對啊。這對於都失蹤的聽到後心情越輕鬆的,還有共同成長的記憶啊,這個都很正常啊。"},{"start":3013.03,"end":3039.147,"text":"可是呢站在執法機關的立場的話我們去年通過這樣的一個法律也賦予說如果說很可惡的你用這樣的一個方式掃票機器人或者外掛的程式去那我們你除了我來跟你檢舉說書店我都賣沒票捏阿是後來下課時間就用搶到料阿是不是有人用掃票機器人是不是有人用外掛的程式像這種方式的話你有沒有辦法"},{"start":3040.848,"end":3062.924,"text":"從同步看出一定的端倪．或者說有什麼方式可以事先去做一個預防請教署長拜訪委員我想這個黃紐是大家都一直怨怒的一件事情剛剛委員所提的他是不是有沒有用AI或外外的程式來購買這個票第一個"},{"start":3065.686,"end":3077.14,"text":"我們應該跟售票系統來做一個聯繫啦售票它的售票比如這一次是拓園嘛那這裡面有沒有同一個IP是一個IP裡面賣100張200張300張這種狀況跟售票系統來做一個聯繫有沒有異常的這樣的一個購票"},{"start":3085.67,"end":3109.724,"text":"來做從這方面去做一個啟蒂的源頭來啟蒂現在跟我說的是在說理論推演我現在是在跟他說這一次以這一次實際來就這一次那你們有去做嗎因為昨天才發生嘛那我昨天晚上就有下通報給全國的這個同仁從網路上類似這樣去做搜尋看看有沒有這種"},{"start":3111.125,"end":3135.871,"text":"獲得票的就在賣票的這個行為那我曾經我跟委員報告我是從台北市來台北市的大巨蛋第一次在開幕賽的時候我就黃牛就抓了一百多個一百多個抓一百多個黃牛你這張拍什麼錄整個這張嗎?你不是說把他抓成這樣你錄不完嗎?我給你看一張我給你看介紹好不好這個是我很擔心是因為這樣子而涉及到我詐騙你去看"},{"start":3138.001,"end":3143.547,"text":"你去看 搖滾區 一張加多少 除了6880以外喔 一張加四萬五喔 啊你如果5880的 一張加四萬三喔 4880的一張加三萬八 要想捏 那一張如果6880加四萬五一張票 五萬幾塊捏"},{"start":3159.073,"end":3186.701,"text":"這個 這個我們會來追查啦是 我的意思是說上上在網路上這些流的這些賣票的這些的狀況我們都會網路形容來做追查那個真的不要開玩笑會來追查一張票它不是門票的一個價值而已啊它是承載了這些歌迷對他青春那個還有回憶還有偶像的深愛的一個後裔啊這個這種愛意啊 深厚的愛意啊那你注意去把它看"},{"start":3187.481,"end":3193.247,"text":"我如果買不到票,剛好網路上像這樣秀出來以後,我有可能你說四年也好回去,回去都要詐騙,詐騙大家都挨挨救,所以我是認為說槍的一個方式,我們不要單消費者來啦。"},{"start":3202.216,"end":3205.98,"text":"今天應該會有了接下來就是今天的重頭戲我看今天的整個修法裏面我請司法院副秘書長也上來一下"},{"start":3223.058,"end":3245.933,"text":"科技偵查法的推動這個對於犯罪偵防是重大的一個進步也是一個法治國家裡面在打擊犯罪跟保障人權之間你如何去取得這樣的一個平衡不管是專法或刑事訴訟法我們既然把它列在刑事訴訟法的一個強制處分章裡面但是怎麼樣去把它按照那個強度"},{"start":3247.062,"end":3268.775,"text":"那種對於當事人的一個侵害的或者說限縮權力的一個強度去做法律保留我相信不同的干預手段裡面都要有救濟那我最擔心的是什麼我們有干預處分然後你沒有救濟我們上次的修法其實我就不斷的提醒外公警察的部分你怎麼辦"},{"start":3270.68,"end":3284.81,"text":"按照民眾黨的版本通過了那大家共同承擔嘛那你現在要來補破網啦要來做一個這樣的一個救濟啦那我想請教的是說如果現在是按照民眾黨把一百五十三條之十全部都刪掉的話不要忘記喔"},{"start":3286.243,"end":3313.752,"text":"我上次特別提醒我們也特別去把它加進去喔我們在整個一百五十三條之十一二三第五項的時候我們去特意把它定定依本章實施調查的方式所得的資料之保存管理跟消毀、懲暴、通知、救濟、監督其他相關事項的辦理要司法院會同行就你們要去定立執法欸今天這個如果全部都砍掉那你怎麼辦"},{"start":3315.373,"end":3336.528,"text":"那這部分沒有放進來那我們上次整部修法失去他的意義啊我聽到不是這樣呢?大家想要死他將這個放進來這個我先預告一下我先提醒不能走回頭路把舊計有漏洞的把它補上來是對的但是把這個又把它給砍掉的話"},{"start":3337.642,"end":3361.754,"text":"我都覺得期期以為不可啦但是接下來就碰到一個問題啦你說像比如說強制抽血的部分那111年憲判制要出來以後那個部分啊這個屬於檢察官的一個要求20小時內呈報檢察官然後屬於檢察官的處分可以准看告可是呢我擔心的是說除了這些以外"},{"start":3363.132,"end":3386.618,"text":"還有沒有其他我們有漏洞掉那我們今天把警察的部分我們把他給含塞進來啦就說這個處分24小時這個你有處分以後有對人民有干預的那要給他一個救濟的管道我比較擔心的是說反而是碰到司法院這邊司法院要"},{"start":3387.955,"end":3400.951,"text":"府民長你就必須要很誠實的來講啦這樣的一個像一個準抗抗的一個方式會不會造成現在實務上你們會有很大的衝擊這第一個第二個你們如何來做一個應變"},{"start":3404.815,"end":3419.773,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那個准抗告的這個擴大齁 從我們事務院報告上我意思說 你們有難題 你們難題 你們有辦法改版過來我們這一部分的話 司法的量能案件一定會增加而且 而且說 我們報告裡面有寫齁 其實"},{"start":3421.115,"end":3436.382,"text":"今天任何一個任何一個不管是司法警察或者其他人做的這個違法處分將來一定會有法律責任包含說國家賠償或者是或者是其他的這個責任追究那部分都要去判斷你一個機關的這個行為不管你是採尿驗尿這些東西都會有"},{"start":3437.142,"end":3456.036,"text":"那麼是不是要在這個416那邊給一個中間性質的這個一個宣告違法而已那我們認為說這不能再做爭奪所以說實際上的執行面我們當然會做後續的這些的研議會跟法務部一起再來去面對這些的問題"},{"start":3456.956,"end":3483.472,"text":"我相信等一下我們進這部法律的審理到最後這個地方很有可能卡關了很有可能卡關了其實這個部分其實要向國人好好去做一個說明其實也要跟立法院來做一個溝通你怎麼樣去達到這樣的一個平衡啊一個法治國家裡面台灣已經進步到這種地步了你任何一個強制處分干預的一個手段裡面立法院這個地方一定會受到提醒嘛"},{"start":3484.692,"end":3513.267,"text":"這麼多的法界的甚至於你們在司法實務人也有時候也會來跟我們討論那我們也會在這個地方示警提出來那這個是我也希望說我也希望說我們在立法的時候這個部分不是單靠一套規則來解決所有的問題法務部這個地方你們確實也要去做一個反思就是說並且監督這些新法的一個實施裡面確保他們在合法的範圍來做一個執行而且你有充分的一個救濟的一個途徑"},{"start":3514.187,"end":3537.493,"text":"保護老百姓的隱私或者那基本權利這個其實作為一個人的基本的啦各位不管部長不管是署長你們各位你們下班以後你們也都是人民啊那這些部分都是基本權利的一個保障啊所以我認為這個部分我們要特別小心尤其是我上次我們上次修法通過的整個科證法把新的武器給放進來了"},{"start":3538.493,"end":3566.53,"text":"我們把這一些資料的保存跟管理的方式我們都已經建立那個機制我們的執法還沒有定上來這個部分輕易把它萬一有拿掉的話這個我反對站在行政部門你們的立場你們也都應該要去捍衛進步的方向本來就要一起走影響到整個司法院或者說整個法官這種量能不足的難題也要想辦法來做一個解決提出解決之道好不好好謝謝"},{"start":3568.872,"end":3569.012,"text":"主席"},{"start":3590.874,"end":3615.132,"text":"在場委員先進列席政府監事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請法務部正部長以及最高檢察署的新總長新總長部長好總長好部長總長請教一下依我們憲法的規定人民國民有沒有通訊的自由"},{"start":3618.018,"end":3635.215,"text":"總統,我們的人民有沒有通訊的自由?有齁,你可以對著麥克風說齁。好,那軍人有沒有通訊的自由?部長有沒有?軍人有沒有通訊自由?就要看地點。看地點。總統,你認為呢?軍人有沒有通訊自由?在法定的規定範圍是有的。"},{"start":3637.776,"end":3650.728,"text":"總統因為我們是麥克風收音在法律規定的範圍內是在法律規定的範圍內有 這個很精準講輕鬆一點吧我的上一代當兵的人在金門馬祖的離島他們的通訊自由就是怎樣 寫信"},{"start":3652.935,"end":3676.714,"text":"甚至不一定有秘密通訊,隨便還被人家拆開來看當然基本上是有秘密通訊的自由是血性我當兵的時候我在兵營的通訊自由是輪到時間可以有個時間排隊去投幣室打電話問候家人找女朋友我兒子現在在當兵他的通訊自由是一段時間會發給他手機他可以上網去看LINE"},{"start":3678.677,"end":3698.352,"text":"議長總統你認為通訊自由是不是隨著通訊工具的科技變化在地點在情境下有所不同但是都是通訊自由這個是對總統也同意嘛同意那請問一下學生有沒有通訊自由學生學生有通訊的自由那學生會在課堂上開直播"},{"start":3699.748,"end":3727.851,"text":"這個是有上課的一個秩序的問題這是上課秩序問題總統你也同意嘛學生有些規定啊高中以下的學校他有規定你上課不能帶手機但是大學好像教授不能限制學生帶手機在課堂上使用但是呢如果學生拿著手機在跟教授開直播教授在講憲法他在底下跟教授吐然後開直播你覺得如果說教授制止學生這樣做有沒有侵犯了學生的通訊自由"},{"start":3730.103,"end":3752.528,"text":"這是一個管理的問題這是管理的問題 總統你的看法呢這個喔 這樣講喔對於在這個中小學這個階段跟大學是不一樣因為中小學基本上他這個有授教權但是有老師教學的自由 自主教學自主所以在這個中小學包括高中以下大學又另外一個"},{"start":3755.103,"end":3777.5,"text":"告鐘以下學校可以規定學生上課不能帶手機但是大學的時候教授只有在你開直播的時候說同學請把手機收起來好可以齁好來我們看我們之前看到的民眾黨所提的二二八之一他的談衝勳自由跟人自由很快的說原來的二二八呢是傳喚被告經傳喚自首或自刑到場在有必要的施壓的時候呢可以具以逮捕"},{"start":3778.18,"end":3805.751,"text":"但是民眾黨提案281他說非經合法逮捕或拘停不得去拘束或限制被告的什麼?人身自由跟通訊自由。他把人身自由跟通訊自由分別的從羈押逮捕當中抓出來寫。那他說如果是自行的配合調查的應該事前告知,這個我想沒有問題。但是如果還沒有在經合法逮捕之前,他的人身自由跟通訊自由是不受限制的。"},{"start":3806.511,"end":3811.793,"text":"那人身自由甚至他可以自由離去那請問部長你認同這樣的一個修法條文嗎?這個我們剛才有講說這個漸行保留漸行保留那個總長呢?"},{"start":3823.774,"end":3851.602,"text":"在我們第一線司法機關的話我們的看法是這個也是保留要保留好來我們看一下案例討論檢察官懷疑某假涉及詐騙集團激發傳票叫某假下週五來遞檢說明那某假就找了律師某以擔任辯護人如期到案在詢問中檢察官發現假涉嫌重大甚至連辯護人以也知情甚至兩個人試圖往上去聯絡集團問題一檢察官可以限定假以的通訊自由嗎部長可以嗎"},{"start":3853.77,"end":3881.69,"text":"在偵查中的詢問、詢問的過程中那如果說可以賦予他隨時通訊的一個自由就是你認為他不可以嗎?是不是?我認為是不可以來總長那你認為那這種情況之下假的人身自由有沒有被限制?在剛剛部長所說的不准他用手機那這個時候假的人身自由有沒有被限制?在這個案例上他的人身自由在詢問當中你不可以用手機啊"},{"start":3883.545,"end":3909.931,"text":"我還在詢問中啊還沒逮捕嘛對不對他的人身有什麼限制他這個影響到我們檢察官的偵辦影響到這個對我是說偵辦當中不准律師或被告使用手機有沒有限制到同時限制到人身自由這個限制是合法的沒有限制到人身自由沒有好來我們看案例來實際的案例有個通靈律師這報上寫的齁那台南律師一個收押兩個交保因為呢他在陪同被告"},{"start":3911.472,"end":3920.938,"text":"閱讯的時候他洩漏了偵查方向然後往前面的共犯去通查檢察官詢問的時候發現辯護人有這種情況遇到辯護人有這種情況之後部長怎麼辦?辯護人如果在他進行越眷權在場權的時候他是不是有違反二四五條第四項偵查不公開有沒有?"},{"start":3935.083,"end":3957.674,"text":"有這個規定嘛對不對好那如果這樣的話請問總長那是不是可以根據228第4項對於這個被告呢我們就予以當庭逮捕還是對於如果被告這樣做是不是可以當庭逮捕辯護人是有月券跟在場陪同嘛他如果有洩漏你可以根據245第4項嘛那如果被告這樣做的話怎麼處理"},{"start":3960.492,"end":3966.381,"text":"委員講的是被告被告在偵訊中他就開始要跟外面通訊阿要去串供阿你可以怎麼辦這個這樣子齁"},{"start":3972.588,"end":3972.608,"text":"閱议長"},{"start":3992.239,"end":4017.172,"text":"那若檢察官發現辯護人有這個問題也可以把他逮捕嘛對不對他有洩漏偵查方案也可以逮捕辯護人嘛可不可以這個是一個泄密的問題對泄密的問題嘛所以防止詐團律師泄密那難道就不用防止被告串證嗎你可以要防止辯護人泄密難道你你可以不用理會被告串證嗎所以檢察律師不可以把徵訊陪同徵訊聽到的內容對外透露那被告可不可以"},{"start":4018.906,"end":4045.399,"text":"這個被告也是不行當然被告也是不行嘛往下看好來所以說我們看到目前二十八字印呢有一個特別的本來二十八本文他寫傳喚自首跟自行到場在二十八字印呢他把自行到場後面再增加一個自願同行配合調查好那看清楚了我後面會問請你記起來往下看請問自願到場就是配合調查嗎自願到場自首算不算配合調查"},{"start":4047.851,"end":4074.27,"text":"這個就是一個沒有被拘捕的一個到場沒有被拘捕的情況我自首還沒有被拘捕我這自首就表示我我要被調查嘛我承認犯罪嘛我自自行到場也是配合調查嘛我希望你調查我自行到場嘛好那我自願同行是不是也是配合你的調查這個就是一個配合調查好那我們看看要拘捕好具體逮捕限制人身的方式來第一具體要拘票對不對有一二三四五有五種"},{"start":4075.191,"end":4100.823,"text":"的法條有講到這個狀況。那逮捕呢不需要拘票有這三種狀況。那請問一下刑事程序當中要限制人身自由的原則是不是要遇到法定的程序?就是要拘提跟逮捕。哇我看到總長一直點頭點很用力沒錯往下看。好所以那麼怎麼樣開啟詢問被告的程序一種是說如果被告已經拘提逮捕了那就詢問嘛詢問只有五個方式嘛釋放拘保、責負、限住住、追身押嘛。"},{"start":4101.443,"end":4109.163,"text":"那如果傳喚或自願到場的時候你在進行詢問之後你要不就是根據二十八第四項當庭逮捕那"},{"start":4110.103,"end":4132.484,"text":"如果你已經逮捕了就不用那就交給法院採訪機啊那請問如果某假是受到傳喚至到道場他的人身自由那時候是不是還沒有受到限制沒有沒有所以你後來詢問之後你就這五種方式那必要的時候根據第四項當庭逮捕是不是這樣是好那我都沒有講人名啊齁大家都知道去對照一下人事實例會在講誰啊齁好那我們看一看所以呢"},{"start":4133.801,"end":4154.919,"text":"違法拘提逮捕的後續效果如果沒有進行前置的程序沒有告知那違反拘提的前置程序可不可以拘押這個法院就是有可能嘛違法逮捕不可以拘押嘛那有沒有可能觸犯妨害自由或濫訴追訴的濫權追訴的這個罪名如果違法逮捕這個如果說有違法逮捕的話這有可能會觸犯"},{"start":4155.64,"end":4184.372,"text":"好所以說非經合法逮捕本來就不能限制人身自由對不對所以這個我們沒有爭議是不是這樣子那我們討論的是什麼我們討論的是通訊的問題來往下看所以道場的種類剛剛講的傳喚是偵查已發動嘛但是呢被告呢他是這樣被動或者是間接強制道場是不是這樣子傳喚的時候偵查已經發動了是不是這樣第二個至少是偵查沒有發動但是呢被告主動道場是不是這樣子主動表達嘛"},{"start":4185.632,"end":4185.912,"text":"閱议員（刑事訴訟法"},{"start":4208.089,"end":4236.367,"text":"所以關於這次我們要修法的內容除我本席所主張的一十五之十非經合法逮捕或拘提檢察官司法警察或司法警察不得拘束或限制被告或犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由這個是毫無疑問的那你覺得通訊自由有同時在這個過程當中要特別表明嗎這個通訊自由這個不用特別去做一個表明那至於說在後段"},{"start":4237.615,"end":4261.23,"text":"第二項對於自行到場或自願同行在我看來它都是含設在配合調查到場少兩個到場兩個字齁它都是配合調查到場的類型你同不同意自行到場或自願同行它都是顯現被告配合調查到場的類型你覺得可以這樣子表達嗎用配合調查到場來含設前面兩個自行到場或自願同行"},{"start":4262.197,"end":4274.016,"text":"應該是一致的是一致的好那在這種情況之下如果被告他是配合調查到場的情況之下您覺得他的通訊自由有可以完全受到保障不用限制嗎"},{"start":4275.98,"end":4280.504,"text":"這個通訊自由事實上在不管是傳喚或自行盜藏或什麼盜藏或盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜盜"},{"start":4302.18,"end":4324.93,"text":"這個是有偵查不公開的一個反對偵查他是被告啊被告有偵查不公開的憲制這個是因為整個一個在在一個法庭的一個偵查庭裡面的一個詢問對於被告不是偵查不公開啊對我這個我知道但是這個是對整個因為章友詢問不一定只有被告嘛是的而且偵查內容不能夠外洩出去嘛偵查內容不得外洩我被告雖然沒有偵查不公開的義務"},{"start":4325.61,"end":4325.791,"text":"閱议人員"},{"start":4342.313,"end":4370.788,"text":"所以在這裡面如果我們寫上了通訊自由就像我剛問你國民有沒有通訊自由軍人有沒有通訊自由學生有沒有通訊自由學生可不可以在課堂上拿著手機對老師上課開直播大家都認為不可以詐團的律師去聯絡詐團的其他共犯就甚至會被辯護人員逮捕了更何況被告不能主張他只是傳喚還沒被監禁逮捕的時候他就擁有通訊自由可以任意的洩露偵查中的一個秘密更何況他是配合調查到場的"},{"start":4374.49,"end":4382.715,"text":"總統你認為剛剛的論述我看到你們最具體的寫在你們報告裡面你們是反對的是不是這樣子你們是不同意這個通訊自由的請說最後幾分幾秒鐘"},{"start":4385.919,"end":4408.106,"text":"報告因為這個228條之一提出來這個裡面他基本上他這個範圍是比較廣泛的可是剛剛委員他有限縮這個範圍這個在討論上當然結果是不太一樣的那結果你們總長你們的文字意見你們是同意哪一種你們是認同哪一種當然剛剛依照委員那個所含涉這個議題的話"},{"start":4411.403,"end":4421.228,"text":"如果這樣講起來那個通訊自由大概會對偵查影響比較大。而人身自由保障這個我們司法機關是沒有意義的。很好!謝謝!謝謝總長!謝謝部長!好!謝謝!那我們下一位請黃國昌委員進行詢答。"},{"start":4439.248,"end":4440.449,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長跟檢察總長部長、總長委員長"},{"start":4453.67,"end":4478.471,"text":"部長早 總長早第一題先請教一下總長因為一樣的問題我之前問過部長請總長看一下這是看不下去的基層檢察官請法務部開課要學習怎麼樣被媒體經營可以請經營多年的學長們擔任講座學長應該就是值得比較資深的檢察官"},{"start":4480.621,"end":4506.281,"text":"對於現今檢媒一體的亂象毫無積極作為使檢察官失去人民的信任將檢察官的名氣踩在腳下終將成為檢方歷史的罪人這個有檢察官寫給北京檢察長高檢檢察長跟檢察總長來請請檢察總長檢察總長檢察官的心聲這個有聽到嗎有看到有看到嗎你認不認同他的說法"},{"start":4508.807,"end":4527.737,"text":"這個委員是指的哪一方面?指的他說啊他第一個說沒有沒有沒有他講的是兩個現象嘛第一個是檢了議題的亂象嘛第二個他說三個大家長都沒有積極作為第一個是現象第二個是他對你們的指控檢查總長贊不贊成這樣說啦齁這個"},{"start":4532.95,"end":4557.591,"text":"我們先把主持弄一下就是說是什麼樣的這個主持怎麼樣就是這個議題的主持是什麼就是說現今的檢檢媒體亂象還是是第一個對檢媒體的亂象當然了這個現在這個主題是不是亂象這個是見仁見智不過不過這個在所有辦案的場合我們"},{"start":4560.216,"end":4584.021,"text":"都會事先跟檢察官提醒齁你認為這個亂象存不存在這個偵查不公開一定要切實做到那個總長你認為這個亂象存不存在第一個答案很簡單嘛第一個是這個檢察官有誤會嘛不要說檢察官胡說八道啦他可能有誤會根本沒有這個亂象嘛如果沒有這個亂象就沒有第二個層次的問題嘛"},{"start":4585.787,"end":4613.249,"text":"有沒有這個亂象如果有亂象如果有的話那我們必須要強調一點偵查不公開是我們檢察官的基本倫理基本的道德就在各種場合我都跟檢察官提醒了他們事實上他們說你們毫無作為你認不認同這個講到這點我講的引申到第二點這個所謂的委員委員所長的作為是指什麼"},{"start":4616.118,"end":4625.182,"text":"這個我跟總長溝通一下這不是我說的這個是基層檢察官說的那現在他們說你們毫無作為嘛解沒議題的亂象所以我才跟你講嘛你如果不認為有解沒議題的亂象的話就沒有第二個層次的問題嘛"},{"start":4641.793,"end":4664.083,"text":"我們司法院有一個叫做偵查不公開作業辦這還是個法規命令這裡面規定的非常的嚴格啦他這裡面不但是偵查的內容包括過偵查的程序都不公開規定的是非常嚴格但是在實務上他的配套措施"},{"start":4665.425,"end":4687.224,"text":"並不充足包括實務上的運作卷證包括這個裁定書或是抗告書等等規定了實務上並沒有那麼的周延所以在總長我先停一下第一個你覺得目前規範上面的規範不是那麼周延嗎這是一個原因之一沒有關係我先就這個問題就好因為我後面還有重要的問題"},{"start":4689.786,"end":4704.095,"text":"針對規範不周延的部分最高檢察署有沒有打算要推進有更周延的規範這我要說明這個職責這個職權是我們司法院在主持你有沒有要建議司法院有更周延的規範"},{"start":4705.731,"end":4726.364,"text":"但如果有需要我們最高檢察署當然有需要嘛那是不是會後請總長把您認為哪裡規範不周延的部分用書面提供給我們參考因為你如果今天檢察總長都說規範不周延啊知識體大我們共同來推動啊規範的周延所以拜託總長"},{"start":4727.845,"end":4749.88,"text":"會後用書面告訴大家哪裡規範不周延相關的配套好可以相關的配套上一次啊我問總長兩個案子嘛一個是RNB案另外一個是泰建案跟北檢告發的那天您跟我說啊你痛心疾首可是10月7號的時候啊鄭明謙跟我說啊最高檢簽結了"},{"start":4752.344,"end":4775.712,"text":"我們先把具體的問題搞清楚違反偵查不公開相關的作業辦法有行政調查的部分有沒有洩密的部分是刑事偵查的部分嗎我這樣說應該沒有錯吧我們法律也把行政調查跟刑事偵查分清楚政部長所說的最高檢牽結的應該是指的刑事偵查的部分吧"},{"start":4778.166,"end":4784.615,"text":"欸這樣子我跟委員報告齁那天委員提到事情事實上我後面還沒有講完剛好今天很感謝委員有這個機會讓我做個說明齁這個"},{"start":4788.903,"end":4808.562,"text":"裡面有很多的因素我剛剛講的只是前面一個這個我了解然後很多在實務上運作的一些總長不好意思我時間有限我們講具體的部分就好了正部長說陳鮑最高檢最高檢牽結了他說的有沒有錯還是根本沒這個案子"},{"start":4809.574,"end":4829.214,"text":"是有牽結還是沒有牽結這個問題很具體啦檢查行政是這個行政上的責任的追究所以先停一下啦現在我們在討論的是行政調查還是刑事偵查刑事偵查當然是我們檢查對所以您現在在講的是刑事偵查還是行政調查"},{"start":4831.038,"end":4839.56,"text":"我現在講的是這個行政調查檢查行政的部分是屬於這個部裡的職權那刑事偵查的督導是屬於最高檢察署"},{"start":4840.999,"end":4868.155,"text":"那所謂部長所謂的呈報最高檢牽結的指的是行政還是刑事我們這個資料來了之後我們是發交到這個地人署去啦所以是行政調查所以是行政還是行事當然發交到台高檢署去他們就做調查調查的時候兩個這個層次如果有違反刑事的話那就刑事偵查就辦刑事責任了而如果只是行政疏忽的話那就行政懲戒了那最後的結論呢"},{"start":4870.569,"end":4892.097,"text":"這結論我們發交下去之後到了台高檢署他們後來怎麼樣處理的並沒有並沒有通知我們最高檢沒有通知你們沒有沒有那奇怪了那部長怎麼會說最高檢牽結了這跟委員做一個補充齁這個是有北檢有分案調查或整個整個一個有呈那個行等一下北檢的分案調查是刑事偵查還是行政調查先講清楚"},{"start":4893.277,"end":4909.956,"text":"是行政還是刑事這是一個行政調查是行政調查所以行政調查牽結的是北檢牽結的嗎這個把那個一個調查的一個結果那個有呈報到最高檢總長你有看到這個調查的結果嗎"},{"start":4915.103,"end":4934.796,"text":"行政調查是屬於檢查行政那刑事偵查才是我們督導的範圍當時來了之後回來之後我馬上就分案發交到台高檢署然後發到台北地檢署他們是說在刑事上查無不法刑事他們回報我們就這樣子"},{"start":4935.857,"end":4941.541,"text":"行政調查的部分是不是也結束了請教部長這個也是結束了所以你那天在回答的時候是行事偵查還是行政調查我是強調是行政調查"},{"start":4961.327,"end":4975.163,"text":"結束的結果可以書面提供給我們嗎?行政調查的部分啦。行事偵查有不公開的問題嘛。我尊重啦。昨天已經發函給委員了。昨天發函給我嘛。好。OK。來。講齁。請檢察總長。"},{"start":4979.438,"end":4997.187,"text":"閱能的貪腐一直是你在擔任檢察總長的時候非常重要的功課。談言閱能的事情我從去年年初就開始追了啦我從去年年初就開始追我追這件案子都是公開追的啦我講的事情都很具體所以呢"},{"start":4999.676,"end":5028.935,"text":"最近開始進行了這樣子的一個調查那當然就台元綠能的部分最近台南地檢署也啟動了一個偵辦的程序對台南地檢署這樣偵辦的效率總長滿不滿意這我這樣說我們那個綠能我們政府長一向就非常的重視那台南地檢署這個案子事實上他們偵辦是有一段時間是沒錯我們也看到輿論所以我請教你效率滿不滿意"},{"start":5030.336,"end":5047.389,"text":"這我要這樣說哇這個調查案件本來就是要需要時間是這個我了解民主的社會是是是然後還有法院是相關的一些這個我都了解了因為我也可以跟總長還有跟部長報告了我檢舉過非常多的案子了有很多現在還躺在台北地檢署啊"},{"start":5048.129,"end":5073.925,"text":"躺了三年的都有啊我也是靜靜的等待啊靜靜等待看檢察官什麼時候醒來要辦啊我也是非常耐心的等待啊因為偵查不公開嘛他辦不辦有沒有什麼具體作為外界無從得知啊只能尊重嘛但這個案子竟然啟動了所以我才請教總長說這個案子的效率滿不滿意台灣地檢署偵辦這個案子啊的進度有沒有跟您報告"},{"start":5074.773,"end":5104.453,"text":"那我能不能跟委員請教一下沒有不好意思我請教一下總長台南地檢署辦這個案子有沒有跟您報告有有嘛對嘛我就喜歡總長這樣講話就事情是怎麼樣就怎麼樣因為我知道啊你10月你應該是10月16號的時候下去台南嘛你10月16號下去台南的時候他們有沒有跟你報告案件的進度"},{"start":5105.68,"end":5132.877,"text":"我們辦案件我跟委員報告一下他是個需要時間的量來磨的啦他們辦的相當長而且非常的辛苦啦所以這個效率你滿不滿意他的進度都有跟你報告嘛因為我掌握到的狀況也是這樣嘛滿不滿意就看接下來我講個問題嘛就看結果我就很冒昧問一句話委員對結果有什麼感覺沒有到目前為止沒有任何結果"},{"start":5134.366,"end":5156.032,"text":"對啊 這個案子還沒有癥結啊對嘛 所以我才問你效率的問題我盡量不要碰到內容的問題內容的部分尊重你們檢方的偵辦嘛總長你沒有發現我作為一個法律人現在哪裡我畫的很清楚啦效率跟結果齁 這要一起來觀察的啦好 沒有關係齁 我今天利用質詢的時間啊 就公開檢舉"},{"start":5158.956,"end":5187.081,"text":"就公開檢舉因為綠能貪腐的弊案按照最高檢察署的新聞稿這個是卓榮泰他也很重視嘛部長也很重視嘛檢察總長是是是那我就公開檢舉了劉河再生的案子我先把背景講這些資訊我之前全部都公開講過了劉河再生後台很硬啊"},{"start":5188.14,"end":5213.11,"text":"全部都是跟綠營權貴在一起剛愁交錯時間地點我全部都確認過沒有錯丟了五千八百萬到屏東社辦公室幫潘孟安養他退休的官員這些我全部都公開講過但這個只有牽涉到政商分際的事情違法的部分不是這裡我繼續往下講來看一下"},{"start":5215.578,"end":5221.666,"text":"經濟部工業局張斌工業區違法套利2.63億這個我也有公開說過但問題是什麼但問題是這根本是一個違法套利的行為針對這個違法套利的行為是以特別股創造虛偽的假象"},{"start":5235.049,"end":5247.143,"text":"這些事情我全部都公開檢舉過留合再生在違法了以後避免被終止合約還有找我們的立法院民進黨的大黨編出來喬事情這個他"},{"start":5248.769,"end":5273.287,"text":"也承認了因為我照片時間地點我全部都秀出來但接下來的結果是什麼經濟部違法放水圖利什麼叫做違法放水圖利你明明就知道明明就知道不應該讓他這樣套利但是我們經濟部卻點頭了我們經濟部點頭的這件事情是違法不是我一個人講的"},{"start":5274.741,"end":5298.866,"text":"我們的監察院終於醒來了終於醒來了到今年夏天的時候到今年夏天的時候他也認定了這是一個違法套利的立案這件事情在最高檢察署也好高檢署也好所成立的利能貪腐的這個打擊犯罪的專案小組裡面有沒有立案"},{"start":5302.672,"end":5321.608,"text":"委員錘詢是我們最高檢察署是嗎?目前沒有?目前沒有嘛我這個人說話有一說一我從來不做空泛的指控我把整個歷程今天利用質詢的時間我公開跟最高檢察署提出我的檢舉"},{"start":5324.932,"end":5332.338,"text":"夠不夠誠發動刑事偵辦的要件我尊重檢察官的判斷但這件事情我覺得非常離譜"},{"start":5333.567,"end":5356.013,"text":"我覺得非常離譜從我開始追這件案子追到現在跟我之前在追檯岩綠能的案子一樣跟我之前在追檯岩綠能的案子一樣都一年多了我很有耐心的等到檯岩綠能的弊案終於動了那動了就像剛檢察總長所講的我們靜靜的看最後的結果是什麼"},{"start":5356.733,"end":5375.804,"text":"但聯合再生的這個案子我就覺得很困惑我一樣啊公開揭發了這麼久到今年夏天我們的監察院終於認證我說的是真的那接下來我所以才今天利用這個機會請教你嘛你們有沒有立案如果沒有立案的話我利用今天公開質詢的時間啊公開檢舉這樣可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":5387.11,"end":5410.935,"text":"好謝謝那我們下一位請審法會委員進行詢答主席我們請政部長部長"},{"start":5414.665,"end":5428.585,"text":"其實這個司法院可能是不是一起上來?委員長 蜂蜜這個我們蜂蜜部長好 我們部長早 這個可能因為畢竟齁"},{"start":5430.263,"end":5447.087,"text":"畢竟我們這個刑事訴訟法主管機關是司法院所以還是要麻煩這個副秘書長上來一下但是其實我們今天有關這個刑事訴訟法這些相關的修正很大部分可能在執行上面的問題都是法務部那這個"},{"start":5452.396,"end":5467.722,"text":"我也看了你們書面報告但是基本上看起來這個司法院跟法務部在就這個今天我們的這些修正條文的看法跟立場其實相當接近相當接近但是司法院也把大部分的"},{"start":5468.871,"end":5482.07,"text":"的問題就是說大概都是大概簡單講就是要請法務部斟酌判斷就是說你們認為說這是法務部的問題那副部長請回我等一下如果有相關"},{"start":5483.497,"end":5501.451,"text":"有需要你回答的時候再請你上來所以部長所以今天看起來大部分這幾條的修正案都是我們法務部會牽涉到我們法務部在偵查在這個相關的這些執行上面的層面的一些問題"},{"start":5504.385,"end":5517.503,"text":"我大概整理一下看一下今天我們這個大概有莊嘉斌委員的提案跟我們台灣民眾黨的提案這兩個案子裡面他有修正的條文我大概做了一個整理這個"},{"start":5520.571,"end":5538.49,"text":"大概有三個部分做了調整第一個就是有關這個特殊強制處分的這個救濟程序的這個第一百五十三條之十這個鍾佳濱委員有做修正他主要是加入了這個警察這個司法警察的部分"},{"start":5542.253,"end":5564.149,"text":"但是台灣民眾黨的提案是整條全條刪除他把他全部把這個特殊強制處分的救濟程序全部把它回歸到跟一般的救濟程序404跟416他大概全部都回歸另外第二個部分就是有關偵查"},{"start":5565.912,"end":5593.844,"text":"的兩條規定一條是偵查中的人身自由跟通訊自由這個部分另外一條他也是刪除這個就是有關這個禁止辯護人在場陳述意見等等這些相關的這些這些問題他也是回歸到406、416大概是這樣的看法那他在針對406跟416他因為回歸所以在406、416做一些抗告的部分做一些調整"},{"start":5595.336,"end":5612.603,"text":"那這個是不是這樣部長我剛才今天的修正草案大概是這樣的內容整理大概所以重點在於說第一個這個有一些部分我們在等一下法案討論主條的時候再跟你討論但是有一些部分我覺得應該要談就是說"},{"start":5615.472,"end":5642.233,"text":"按照台灣民眾黨的版本齁你如果說在這個將這個一百我先談一百一百五十三條之十啦齁按照台灣民眾黨的版本他把他全條刪除之後回歸到406跟416他406跟416之後他再加上說有關第十一章的這些強制指紋專章的相關規定但是這裡面發生一個我看到一個比較大的問題就是他這些相關的程序回歸了齁"},{"start":5645.643,"end":5672.977,"text":"但是他有關第五項這個授權定令這個依本章實施後的這個這個調查方式所得資料是保存管理銷毀陳報通知救濟監督及其他相關事項的辦法由司法院會同行政院定之這個部分不見了這條這個被這個在他回他回到404 416之後他這個部分並沒有過去也就是說如果按照民眾黨版本那麼我們這個這個"},{"start":5674.667,"end":5676.627,"text":"所以我們還是要回復到特殊強制處分專章裡面的授權的來訂定的一個執法"},{"start":5702.94,"end":5723.927,"text":"我是說如果這一條刪除了就不見了嗎?你的授權規定就不見了。那我們這個刑事訴訟法這個修正我們在7月31號公布到今天兩個多月這個授權這個訂定的這些相關的這些資料保存管理銷毀陳報的這些相關規定我們有沒有進度有沒有在做?"},{"start":5730.334,"end":5736.457,"text":"11月30號會完成11月30號11月30號11月30號會完成我們在這過程中我知道我們其實已經開了好幾次會議在研議了這個從這個好像我們7月31號公布之後你們8月13號你們就有召開有關這個強制處分特殊相關辦法的一個一個諮詢會議那這個這個也召開在9月16又召開了這個研修"},{"start":5760.752,"end":5773.785,"text":"諮詢會議研修會議到這個禮拜21號22號就是前兩天前兩天你們又召開了特殊強制處分實務學術交流研討會議這個部分"},{"start":5776.685,"end":5792.465,"text":"現在這樣子有沒有基本的草案或者是共識這個是屬於司法院主政的這一部分那個整個那個刑事訴訟法的相關的執法這是司法我們是本部的話是通報法那一部分你們是通報法部分好來副院長"},{"start":5794.423,"end":5798.647,"text":"那如果在今天的會議最後結果是153條之十刪除了,那你們這個規定的法源在哪裡?"},{"start":5817.562,"end":5842.616,"text":"根據就會不見了所以我們的報告裡面想說請委員這部分能夠慎重因為像這些特殊偵查的科技偵查的成果要怎麼處理這個在除了大家關切以外我們參考了其他的國家其實是非常周密要做非常周密的規範的恐怕不能只有一個條文弄到416然後這麼單純的去處理像日本是非常詳密的規範"},{"start":5844.516,"end":5861.763,"text":"您說要把它跟一般的強制處分的程序一樣我想這個恐怕科技偵查這種特殊強制處分的這種這種他的這些不管取得資料的保存等等他跟一般的強制處分會有蠻大的差別"},{"start":5862.623,"end":5872.001,"text":"所以尤其是這一條的法律授權規定被拿掉個人認為是影響是蠻大的所以這個希望說等一下在修法的時候請本委員會的委員大家在這個部分能夠斟酌考慮"},{"start":5874.178,"end":5882.986,"text":"那另外一個我剛剛講說今天還有很多的法條的部分另外一個我個人在這邊跟跟這個副部長請回跟部長來討論有關這個第228條之一這個民眾黨黨團所提出的這個草案他們提出"},{"start":5893.556,"end":5905.145,"text":"提出來基本上在這個有關自行到場或自願陪同的徵詢過程中他可以擁有人身自由跟通訊自由這個相關規定你有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":5907.444,"end":5924.859,"text":"這個人身自由這部分如果說不是依法具體逮捕的都是有人身的一個自由這個我們必要保障的嘛對那但是如果說是那個通訊自由的話在偵查中在在偵查他這個自行到場跟跟自願自願同行這個算不算在偵查中啊"},{"start":5925.419,"end":5943.025,"text":"而這個是到就是到就訓的一個方式是到接受檢查訓問的一個方式因為傳喚是檢查是依傳票來通知傳喚他到自行調查的話是他自己主動因為民眾黨黨團提案他們"},{"start":5944.805,"end":5954.018,"text":"他們這個這個所修修改部分最主要就是對於自行到場或自願同行自願同行這部分目前在刑事訴訟法裡面有自願同行這樣沒有這個這個其實就是"},{"start":5955.99,"end":5982.004,"text":"自刑稻草的一個 自刑稻草有啦 自刑稻草第二十二 第二二二八條有 但自願同行 自願同行他的 我 我 我 不然就是自願嘛 他沒有自願他怎麼會起來呢對 自願同行是 他總是有定義在法律上 你要聽聽在法律條文裡面他有定義啊 自願同行跟自刑稻草 他其實自願同行沒有這個用語 沒有這個用語 這個就是一個自刑稻草的一個方式嘛 包含在這裡面嘛"},{"start":5983.565,"end":5991.968,"text":"所以假設要是照這樣修了你認為自願同情就可以刪掉他就是罪羽就對一來法院上目前沒有定義嘛但是自行道場自行道場他"},{"start":5997.515,"end":6017.044,"text":"現在有關自行到場我們在規定裡面也只有第二百二十八條有所規定那自行到場之後事實上他們還沒有受任何的這個司法的的這個任何的法律消息所以理論上他自行到場到他真的這個這個"},{"start":6019.145,"end":6045.877,"text":"有到必須要羈押或者是必須要做處分的之前他這個理論上他應該是擁有百分之百的人身自由跟通訊自由啊這個理論上好像聽起來是有道理的啊部長這個是人身自由是要保障但是如果說有必須要羈押的必要當然檢察會進行的依法來逮捕吧對那所以這一條規定"},{"start":6047.574,"end":6063.465,"text":"理論上他都還沒有進入任何的處分的程序他當然是理論上應該擁有人身自由跟通訊自由通訊自由這個要在偵查中現在我要跟你爭執他自願到場之後這個算是偵查了嗎進入偵查"},{"start":6064.866,"end":6065.206,"text":"如果開了偵查庭"},{"start":6083.417,"end":6096.883,"text":"這個都沒有關係嗎?這是通訊自由（因為檢查要徵訊要徵訊的話他一定要被告到場那被告到場的話他有行這種方式嗎?我現在要跟你跟你要談的就是因為自願到場自願到場"},{"start":6100.37,"end":6116.37,"text":"在理論上他確實是在沒有受任何的處分之前他確實是應該擁有人身自由跟通訊自由因為他沒有受任何處分嘛但是我知道說事實上在偵查如果說你進入了偵查的階段那當然這個這個這個說還想有通訊自由這個"},{"start":6120.394,"end":6142.768,"text":"對偵查會有很大的摯愛例如說他就有瞭解了偵查的方向跟你偵查內容重點是他就有可能有透過通訊串供或者是通知供範或者是相關的這些其他的湮滅證據等等這樣子的透過通訊來進行各位像那個詐團的話我們發現有這種情形"},{"start":6148.254,"end":6161.47,"text":"是有這種問題是還是你們還是得解決我剛剛所講的問題就他在未受任何處分之前他當然享有憲法所保障的人身自由跟通訊自由啊所以你如何讓資源到場到我們這個做出"},{"start":6163.564,"end":6191.28,"text":"這是對這個當事人做出處分之前這樣子的這個自行到場的這個法律效力我覺得這個部分在等一下我們逐條的時候我想部長你這個部分是不是能夠等一下我們還是會再探討這個一樣同樣的問題這是你憲法守保障的人身自由跟通訊自由以及但是跟委員報告就是說當檢查在徵訊的時候那個就通訊自由就要做限制了"},{"start":6192.461,"end":6218.462,"text":"對但是這是開始徵訊訊問就要限制了就像我們老師剛剛委員講說老師要上課上課就不能再打手機我想這個是這一條修法到時候我們等一下逐條討論這一條修法最大的一定癥結就在這裡就在於憲法保障的通訊自由跟人身自由你是不是到了你可以限制你沒有任何處分的情況下是不是可以限制他的問題好不好以上"},{"start":6222.043,"end":6222.343,"text":"主席有請部長麻煩部長"},{"start":6247.397,"end":6253.998,"text":"議員早請問部長齁昨天我針對偵查不公開的質詢你覺得我是在干涉個案嗎?這部分我也沒有提到個案的問題來謝謝你感謝部長公開打臉的吳思堯吳思堯就是一個想護航卻常常幫倒忙的綠色豬隊友啦"},{"start":6272.711,"end":6287.795,"text":"我要謝謝部長端正視聽我昨天沒有干涉個案謝謝部長還我清白不過我也要問問部長吳世堯昨天影射我是質詢是干涉個案他說這個干涉個案的質詢對部長會不會產生很大的壓力部長你回答什麼你回答你承受了莫大的壓力"},{"start":6300.012,"end":6313.911,"text":"來來來我問部長我到底給了你什麼壓力請問部長我有像柯建銘一樣關說你叫你指揮底下的檢察官不要上訴柯建銘讓他無罪逃獄嗎有沒有我昨天有沒有我有沒有"},{"start":6316.332,"end":6338.358,"text":"這個科總招不會給我做這樣的一個...我說我啦!我有沒有學科總招啦!欸拜託!部長!部長!全民電通案!全民電通案科建民之所以可以無罪逃獄是因為沒有關說司法罪但全民電通案鐵針針的事實他就去關說司法機關啊!"},{"start":6340.178,"end":6354.072,"text":"來再想請教你下一個問題喔那我有像前法務部長邱泰山一樣針對醫院的逃落稅案關說桃園地檢署的檢察長嗎有沒有欸這部分喔我有沒有啦你不要管別人啦"},{"start":6355.222,"end":6360.085,"text":"我沒有啦我沒有啦拜託拜託沒關係啊部長你的風格我知道再來我再問你喔還是說我是賴清德的愛將我要你大辦在野黨小辦執政黨你很掙扎"},{"start":6372.639,"end":6383.705,"text":"有嗎?有沒有?當然沒有啊!我不太理解啦!我一個在野黨立委到底能給你多麼莫大的壓力啦!當然我跟你講啊!"},{"start":6386.707,"end":6403.911,"text":"我一個在野黨立委在立法院接入今天許多偵查公開的訊息免利你們捍衛刑事訴訟法的偵查不公開是能給你什麼莫大的壓力還干涉個案我要跟部長說來來來沒關係你捍衛我尊重你我只給部長一個勸告吳思瑤就是立法院有名的造謠王"},{"start":6415.306,"end":6440.008,"text":"經常當豬隊友亂造謠我順便舉個例子今天部長你為人剛正不偷不搶嘛對不對沒錯吧謝謝委員肯定當然啊結果今天有個吳造謠隊的吳志強說我跟你講鄭明謙就是一個一天到晚偷人家東西的人他跟我這樣講然後我回答說對對對是是是我看到他偷我壓力很大我跟你講"},{"start":6441.668,"end":6465.675,"text":"這個例子當然不存在啦可是我要跟你講什麼當你附和一個造謠者就是一個造謠的共犯什麼叫承受莫大的壓力昨天我們主席還問你這個問題你也不肯回答謝謝你今天還我清白因為抱歉事關我名譽啊我非得問不可啊我還是感謝部長只是誠懇的奉勸部長不要再附和吳造謠啦吳思堯的造謠王啦來我想請教我們檢查總長總長謝謝你"},{"start":6471.676,"end":6498.183,"text":"來部長你也留著因為待會有問題要問你請問總長一一三年憲判制第八號出爐已經一個月了針對目前三十七位死刑犯初步認定他們會提非常上訴還是不會提非常上訴的數量大概多少或你已經有介紹哪些提非常上訴了有沒有開始提非常上訴了"},{"start":6503.616,"end":6528.45,"text":"委員這個問題很感謝委員關心這個問題因為牽涉到很多人權的那我們現在最高檢察署把這個卷都調來之後我們再研究啦那在10月24號我們跟委員報告說這個案子現在都已經本署分案了那我們現在依照審判日8號的判決意旨在逐案逐項的研議中跟委員報告"},{"start":6530.202,"end":6559.344,"text":"你給我講了15秒鐘完全在浪費我的時間這個答詢的風格我很欣賞有多少人已經提了你不知道就這麼簡單這個提非常上訴總不是一個所謂的秘密事項吧好啦沒關係啦沒關係我問你下一題這題都不肯回答沒關係來想請教齁如果今天總長你幫死刑犯這37位死刑犯提出非常上訴"},{"start":6560.834,"end":6576.014,"text":"假設今天我們的法院按照大法官的審判意旨發回更審來撤銷原判請問這些死刑犯會不會被放出來我問部長好了來部長法律你比他懂一點來部長會不會放出來"},{"start":6581.138,"end":6592.622,"text":"我們會窮盡一切力量來阻止這些來鬼打牆我就照你會鬼打牆沒關係請問申請羈押的要件是什麼有哪幾個要件滿足才能夠羈押你要申請羈押嘛對不對這個這個剛才委員問的問題我不是申請羈押一秒鐘兩秒鐘三秒鐘來沒關係會議詢問他又不回答問題了主席會議詢問時間暫停"},{"start":6608.921,"end":6632.235,"text":"請問主席你也當過檢察官申請羈押要件有哪幾種啊?申請羈押依照刑事訴訟法101條是逃亡或者是有篡證湮滅證據之餘然後另外還有一個重罪羈押是重罪五年以上重罪之外然後有逃亡跟湮滅證據之餘另外還有一個101條之一是預防性羈押還有反復實施犯罪之餘就會有這個問題"},{"start":6634.295,"end":6649.124,"text":"部長學學我們會議主席啦回答這麼清楚我就問一個問題法院在審酌這些所謂的羈押要件的時候你去申請羈押法務部申請羈押講話申請羈押我想請問法官就會准嗎滿足這個要件嗎有滿足嗎"},{"start":6653.368,"end":6678.528,"text":"你又答不出來沒關係我再問你喔我問你下一個問題沒關係沒關係我告訴你第一個我們已經講過了你沒辦法左右法院嘛法院決定採不採你的羈押的理由這個問題可以問司法院嘛沒關係嘛這個我不是承辦法官嘛但是我想我們檢方能見我已經講過很多次了我們就是用好啦好啦我跟你講啊我不為難你啦你跟我講你保證會申請羈押嘛你上次講的啊"},{"start":6679.929,"end":6696.599,"text":"你保證會要求法官羈押你上次保證現在又不是沒關係你要跟我混時間來來來問下一個問題沒關係啊這題跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過跳過"},{"start":6711.121,"end":6725.582,"text":"這個那個那個這個那個會議詢問停止時間15個月會議時間來我們請問我們的主席那個我可以講嗎 羈押多久沒關係啊你剛剛都混時間我倒是問主席快一點如果是10年以下的罪的話是依照刑事訴訟法108條是"},{"start":6727.264,"end":6728.485,"text":"所以壓了15個月壓到極限以後就得放人嘛是不是請問主席"},{"start":6751.816,"end":6780.515,"text":"當然啦因為在審理中你只能你是在問我嗎審理中是只有羈押我問他我剩一分鐘他問他都不回答啊我只好問會議主席啦因為審理中是只有羈押才能限制被告人身自由我等一下我待會一分鐘那你做結論我們先請會議詢問請主席開始一下就是審理中的話是只有羈押才能限制被告人身自由只有這個方式而已好那我現在請教"},{"start":6782.357,"end":6787.381,"text":"我們按照妥數審判法第五條請問在什麼情況之下人就得放出來部長"},{"start":6789.127,"end":6817.813,"text":"就是第五條的規定阿我講的妥數阿他寫的第五條規定阿我不懂問你嘛來你沒關係你答不出來來會議詢問第三次請主席回答主席妥數存在嗎在什麼情況之下人又會被放出來因為依照妥數審判法只要是十年以上的重罪他是可以延壓六次所以再加積壓三個月所以總共是十五個月他是他的最高的極限那裡面有規定嘛審判中積壓期限累計不得逾五年嘛對不對"},{"start":6819.483,"end":6846.042,"text":"裡面也有規定說今天審判中延期羈押最重是死刑無期徒刑有期徒刑十年以上一審二審六次違憲第三審一次違憲所以很簡單我要做一個結論來聽聽我們的部長第一個你的保證申請羈押不等於法院會採納因為他不認為說你按照刑事訴訟法一百零一條認為是符合要件第二個就算今天關了押了"},{"start":6846.903,"end":6870.919,"text":"他也有15個月的期限第三個又按照妥數審判法的一個規定最後一個更重要的事情等到法院今天我們總長非常上訴之後我跟你講發回從審開始所謂的撤銷死刑判決之後人就是很可能放出來啊不是嗎有沒有可能你要推給司法院來秘書長請副秘書長請委員好"},{"start":6876.488,"end":6882.59,"text":"是不是啊?申請羈押法院一定會准嗎?對啊所以你還是同樣的問題部長能夠保證他申請羈押法院法官就會准嗎?不能嗎?當然啦那如果法官沒准人就怎麼樣?"},{"start":6897.928,"end":6919.285,"text":"啊對法官有信心啊謝謝你啊法律要是寫這麼清楚如果按照這些所謂的寫死的要件法官再有信心都沒辦法啦奇怪你剛剛要我問副秘書長你又插進來你滿熱心回答的我告訴你副秘書長上次我已經講過了你也不能代表法院"},{"start":6920.166,"end":6931.03,"text":"法官怎麼去裁定要不要羈押不是你能決定不是法務部長能決定信心不能代表一切人就是有可能放出來那我再想請教我們部長回到您了我們我想請教您請問您知道嗎"},{"start":6937.642,"end":6966.959,"text":"我們現在一年大概平均這個有一百五十位殺人犯但一年平均有2.5位被三審判死刑這是過去我們很長一段時間的紀錄那我以2000年到2007年死刑定驗29位2008年到2015年死刑定驗23位但是你知道2016年蔡英文上台之後到她卸任總共多少位被三審判死"},{"start":6968.814,"end":6988.328,"text":"你知道嗎這八年期間省裡的七百多位殺人犯然後呢就是有兩位被三審判死我要跟部長說的是我們民進黨上台其實已經接近實質廢死了現在大法官又把門檻調得這麼高"},{"start":6990.567,"end":7017.118,"text":"這才是人民憤怒啊你看到說今天司徒獎的女老師今天慘死跟市審判決改判免死最高法院直接告訴大家就是按照大法官憲判八號判決下來的意旨來做出所謂的免死確判然後人就確判了那接下來我們看到未來這37位死囚一樣會有這個問題啊"},{"start":7019.355,"end":7024.907,"text":"所以沒有關係啦部長我要告訴您吼您的保證有沒有辦法保證人不放出來"},{"start":7025.905,"end":7051.015,"text":"只是當然你也沒辦法改變這些東西因為大法官的憲法解釋就出來了反正大法官就是太上皇阿他今天高興怎麼做就怎麼做不管八成民意反廢死阿那剛剛你們也委屈阿我先幫你多說一點話可是你們也沒辦法阻止今天將來所謂的發回更審所謂的撤銷死刑判決之後這些人會不會放出來根本不是你們能決定的以上謝謝"},{"start":7054.342,"end":7077.363,"text":"謝謝羅委員你這樣搞得我比我比被詢的官員還緊張對啊沒錯因為你專業嘛因為我國是成文法國家嘛所以羈押羈押的要件只有那幾種你要法官創設用用成文法以外就10101之以外的條文去押被告我真的是覺得沒有法官敢所以羅委員其實要提我也一直提在提出這個問題"},{"start":7078.835,"end":7083.198,"text":"接下來我們請林思瑤委員進行詢答我們謝謝趙偉先請部長麻煩部長"},{"start":7110.58,"end":7128.914,"text":"部長我想我延續一下剛才羅志強有關Face的議題我想就是我們最近有一部最精忠獎的這個迷你劇叫做八尺門的辯護人這部劇那個部長知道這部劇他的故事背景嗎"},{"start":7130.342,"end":7153.005,"text":"這裏面有寫就是在談認證你講知道知不知道就好了知道了我要提的是說這個男主角他有一句經典的一個台詞他提到說偏誤的精神鑑定會導出錯誤的事實也無法精準判斷教化的可能性"},{"start":7154.498,"end":7176.246,"text":"這句話非常經典這句話就是印證說也就是很明確的指出說精神鑑定是否嚴格有是否有嚴格的科學基準他是非常一個重大對於我們死刑判決會產生非常重大的一個不一樣的一個判決"},{"start":7177.566,"end":7197.374,"text":"我想大法官的憲法法庭所作成的113年度憲判制第8號這個判決裏面對死刑有三道關卡尤其對我們精神障礙的部分這三道關卡包含在我們偵審的時候還有在執行的時候"},{"start":7199.055,"end":7223.084,"text":"還有這個在就是就是一個是在申審的時候一個是在執行的時候還有一個就是說如果他在整個判決的過程中如果有精神障礙或其他心智缺陷他有這樣的一個情況的時候在任何一個階段我們都沒有辦法判都沒有辦法把他判決死刑"},{"start":7224.705,"end":7249.683,"text":"所以對於我們的精神障礙者如果他在訴訟的過程中或者在判決確定在最後的要執行的時候如果他說他有精神障礙都不會被判決死刑或不會被執行死刑所以精神鑑定會導致出錯誤的事實也無法精準來判斷教化的可能性"},{"start":7250.884,"end":7279.306,"text":"這一點部長你同意嗎?這個劇的這個啟示男主角提到這句話的確這個八尺門的編文他提的這句話是令人省心思但是委員關心的就是憲判例子那個行為史跟審理史的那個對跟執行史還有執行史那我想這個在根據憲判例子他那個用詞是不太一樣那個行為史是要臨床"},{"start":7280.327,"end":7280.607,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具"},{"start":7300.111,"end":7328.729,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7329.957,"end":7345.094,"text":"對於說這句話可能就會產生說我們未來在精神鑑定的時候如果是三個階段行為時或者是在訴訟的過程中或者是在執行的時候"},{"start":7345.655,"end":7367.624,"text":"那被告或者受刑人他提出說我他現在就是完全不理解啊執行的一個效果是什麼啊死刑的效果是什麼啊或者他在偵審的時候提出說我根本就是我現在這個對整個審判程序啊偵查程序我也不理解或者行為是他那時候我就已經是毫無意識說我去殺了人"},{"start":7368.737,"end":7383.227,"text":"那他做出這種抗辯那我們精神鑑定的時候當然剛才部長講說是請精神科的鑑定醫師來做鑑定吧那司法院實際上我們在訴訟審判的事務上是怎麼樣子來做相關的一個鑑定"},{"start":7384.938,"end":7385.259,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":7401.758,"end":7401.878,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具"},{"start":7417.222,"end":7420.944,"text":"包括 action time, interrogation time, execution time."},{"start":7420.944,"end":7438.516,"text":"包括行為時、審理時、執行時。 跟我們司法院法官比較相關的可能就是行為時的精神狀況還有審理中的狀況。 那執行的部分可能是法務部這一邊。 那但是我們都有跟司法精神醫學會那目前我們也建置了一些精神鑑定的一些的專家的資料庫。 那希望說將來如果真的案件需要的時候"},{"start":7443.939,"end":7462.852,"text":"那能夠由這一些人去執行,也得到一遍的賄賂其實我們一個最大的疑問就是說因為今天大法官設下這樣一個三道死刑的一個關卡就會造成未來我們不管是在偵查或者我們在這個審判或在執行的時候會有一個非常大的一個不確定性"},{"start":7463.692,"end":7481.459,"text":"就是說你如何來科學去鑑定說這個絕對鑑定出來的是這個與事實相符就被告的抗辯是成立的如果我現在假設一個例子假設我們在這個行為的時候是一個鑑定醫師"},{"start":7483.759,"end":7493.154,"text":"在這個審判的時候是一個鑑定醫師然後在執行的時候又是不同的鑑定醫師三個階段都是不同的鑑定的醫師來做鑑定"},{"start":7495.458,"end":7521.724,"text":"那結果這個醫師最後他鑑定說最後他在執行的時候說我現在已經喪失心神能力了我完全不懂得我現在執行的效果這個是什麼就是他去抗辯這樣子那我們如果最後醫師鑑定說他在最後一個階段他已經喪失心神能力那這個醫師推翻他之前的一個鑑定這時候到底要採信他的最後一次的鑑定"},{"start":7523.024,"end":7546.837,"text":"還是說我們要再做另外更精準的鑑定如何來實務上如何來操作跟委員報告執行階段的這個受刑能力受刑狀況能力的這個鑑定跟審理的這個鑑定恐怕不同層次那跟委員報告我們之前確實有跟司法精神醫學會他們去做過一些溝通聯繫他們也就針對"},{"start":7547.918,"end":7565.395,"text":"委員所垂涎的這些問題以他們那個精神精神精神醫學專業的立場他們有去嘗試去做區分所以這部分這部分委員擔心的這些問題我們相信我們會跟那個精神醫學界他們現在已經在做已經在做研議了"},{"start":7567.057,"end":7594.053,"text":"所以我是我個人的一個感觸就是說大法官對於這個死刑的一個判決對於有沒有金帳這一個部分他去做一個關卡的一個限定實際上真的造成不管是我們檢察官或者我們的法官在這個判決的時候呢真的很大的困擾如果假設我再假設如果是不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定那到底要採信誰的"},{"start":7596.311,"end":7623.906,"text":"要採信誰的每一個階段不同的醫師做出不同的鑑定所以被告是很狡猾的我要告訴你們這一點如何的科學的來去判斷說這個人是不是真的精神障礙這一點還是請不管是法務部或者是我們司法院要研擬出更好的一個對策跟你剛才講的什麼精神醫學會是不是"},{"start":7626.021,"end":7646.222,"text":"司法精神醫學會做更細密的一個討論尤其這個憲判制第三號出來之後我覺得真的如果你沒有做詳細的討論未來所有的被告都會做這方面的一個抗辯好這對被害的家屬非常的不公平好那接下來我們是不是請那個部長你們都請回請那個總長一下"},{"start":7656.98,"end":7680.57,"text":"好總長我長話短說時間也差不多我想剛才黃國昌委員對針對台眼綠能的這個案子他也這個垂詢很多其實我們比較納悶的因為今天最新的一個報告就是說昨天檢方生壓然後今天凌晨這些一干被告全部生壓被駁回那被駁回那我們檢察官是不是會提抗告"},{"start":7682.757,"end":7701.017,"text":"到那了一定會提抗告嘛就是說我們那他們這個案子黃國昌講說他在去年年初就已經去揭發這個弊案當然檢察官一直查查查查到今年大概隔了一年七個月到今年十月就是前幾天十月二十二日"},{"start":7701.557,"end":7719.466,"text":"才發動搜索才發動偵查然後把相關的人士接我們不管是DRG什麼都一連串的大動作來聚約談相關的人士然後最後昨天就申請生涯但是卻被駁回駁回的原因總長知道是什麼嗎"},{"start":7720.706,"end":7745.145,"text":"法院認為什麼?他具體的原因為什麼不會?報告委員因為今天早上來我還來不及仔細看但是我知道他們那個有就陸東委員所垂詢的我們那個檢察官會提出抗告但內容我還沒有今天早上一直在這裡面還來不及看是我剛才看一下罪證不足所以這很諷刺啊一個案子調查那麼久最後罪證不足要深壓罪證不足"},{"start":7746.371,"end":7765.153,"text":"所以我們還是要去啊這個跟報導因為地院法官的看法哈有時候每個地方法院又都不太一樣哈啊另外這個二省的法官的看法哈也有他們的見解哈所以接下來所以所以那個案情是總長我最後要講了是就我希望這個案子因為這個"},{"start":7766.943,"end":7790.196,"text":"如果從整個報導來看的話或者相關的訊息來看的話這種我們國營事業的子公司竟然這麼大的一個弊案有說知情人士講說水很深所以我希望我們這個家官能夠就這個案子不管涉及的層級多高水多深一定徹查到底"},{"start":7791.57,"end":7808.001,"text":"總長有沒有信心這個國營事業的財產就是全民的財產對也是我們檢察官的財產全國人民的當然當然我們檢察官一定會陸力以赴是所以我希望這個案子一定要查個水螺石珠不能有任何的護短是當然好以上謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝那我們下一位請吳世耀委員進行詢答好謝主席有請部長"},{"start":7821.698,"end":7822.859,"text":"麻煩部長部長早辛苦了委屈了在議事殿堂往往有很多立委都不問政事只會在那邊東扯西扯有一位委員呢這個名字有個強字但事實上問政一點都不強"},{"start":7845.197,"end":7870.445,"text":"今天的主題吳思瑤準備了19頁20頁的PPT我每一次的質詢至少都是15頁以上的PPT我的團隊認真準備充分的研議相關的議案那也有一種人呢一點都不強那剛剛花了質詢時間8加2他花了多數的時間在提及吳思瑤這種行為呢"},{"start":7874.403,"end":7901.212,"text":"其實我也很習慣啦過去這位不強的委員那時候他是不強的議員他要監督的對象應當是台北市長可是呢他都是在他的臉書一天到晚呢都在討論吳思瑤我也覺得好奇怪我也覺得好困擾我們跟騷法通過了嘛希望立法委員自己要注意立法院新立的法那也有一種不強的人就是這樣常常自己的言論禁不起檢驗"},{"start":7902.964,"end":7924.756,"text":"然後當別人說出他不敢面對的真相的時候呢他只能夠扯別人是在造謠正因為戳中了他的痛點正因為講到了他的痛處他只會跳腳只會跳針只會反應過度這種一點都不強的人他的行為跟中國一樣欸跟中國一樣欸"},{"start":7929.628,"end":7954.395,"text":"只會用這種共機擾台用這種反應過度當台灣在捍衛我們的主權堅稱台灣的立場打到了中國的痛處中國只會用這種跳槍演習或者是各種的軍事恐嚇言語文攻武嚇都來了所以我"},{"start":7956.004,"end":7962.199,"text":"沒關係我也很習慣了面對這種政治癡漢的糾纏那回到我今天的主題"},{"start":7965.238,"end":7987.19,"text":"擊壓解送輪為秀場我認為是反人權不管嫌疑人是誰下一頁我常常很不解為什麼土城看守所每次在擊壓解送的那個現場他是公開的還是半公開的都會被媒體輕易地拍到"},{"start":7988.404,"end":8011.493,"text":"議員．議員"},{"start":8012.728,"end":8033.974,"text":"這是台北地檢署署的那個前面那個那個空間嗎對不對球車的出入口是他是一個出入口但是我認為畢竟都只是嫌疑人吶都被清楚的可以被媒體這樣獵巫拍攝我認為對於一個嫌疑人的人權是有很大的傷害下一頁"},{"start":8036.251,"end":8056.857,"text":"擊壓被告雖然有犯罪的嫌疑但是人受無罪推定原則的保障嘛對不對法有明定嘛不管是刑事訴訟法101條154條89條都告訴我們確實因為安全考量需要佩戴借據但是嫌疑人的人格尊嚴都要受到保障"},{"start":8057.873,"end":8067.42,"text":"下一頁台灣有台灣的法律國際有國際的公約公民與政治權利公約第七第十條都講到對於這種"},{"start":8070.296,"end":8095.379,"text":"所有的自由被剝奪之人他仍應當受到人道及尊重其天賦人格尊嚴之處欲更何況他還沒有被判刑確定他只是嫌疑人下一頁所以我真的請你們去正式去研議我大概也側面瞭解了一下那個看守所圖城看守所那個地方他似乎是一個因為那個地形地貌"},{"start":8096.601,"end":8124.417,"text":"好像是媒體是那個沒有毒死的然後讓媒體可以很輕易的從一個比較高的地方然後因為地檢署的建築物的規格不一樣空間有限所以在壓積壓解送的這個半公開場合或是非他應該是非公開場合都讓媒體可以輕易的去拍攝到您認為這樣子的可能涉及違反人權我真的覺得是違反人權我們要怎麼樣來補強"},{"start":8128.4,"end":8143.552,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個問題那這部分我會請那個臺高檢署來督導那個各地檢署就這部分來做如果有這種情況就適當的一個遮蔽因為這個不是公開的場合是他是非公開場合嘛對"},{"start":8144.713,"end":8145.494,"text":"我同樣來關心收容數據裡頭的抄收問題。"},{"start":8169.574,"end":8169.594,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":8188.097,"end":8188.617,"text":"如果以法務部我們要推動人權"},{"start":8215.258,"end":8224.721,"text":"預政改革一人一床的政策上路多年也有五成以上沒有達到一人一床的政策進度"},{"start":8226.062,"end":8253.638,"text":"當中呢看守所確實又惡化於高於監獄的收容狀況我知道這很困難空間但是該做我們就要逐步去做我希望預算不要被擋不要持續被擋讓你們真的現在投入全台灣五處的這個積壓收容情形的空間改建能夠來持續加碼的上路下一頁"},{"start":8254.895,"end":8271.168,"text":"所以我剛剛說的您要去檢視剛剛說的這個看守所的收容狀況比這個監獄更糟的這個現實也包括回到法規我上次提出喔法務部針對各監獄的收容的"},{"start":8272.142,"end":8274.583,"text":"而台灣的法規也只針對監獄受刑人的空間有基準的規範對於看守所更沒有"},{"start":8295.316,"end":8313.643,"text":"所以我順著這整個邏輯如果我們都無罪推定我們都在那個辦案的過程當中必須去收容必須去拘禁必須去拘提這些被害嫌疑人我們要努力的還是要兼顧他的人權部長您可不可以綜合回應我這些的提議呢"},{"start":8314.888,"end":8329.885,"text":"謝謝委員關心我想這個抄收的問題我們現在在努力那因為我們現在爭取預算來做一個興建我希望來年立委不能增加預算之提議我也不會提案修法直接要你加碼加倍但是你們自己來編預算我們全力支持謝謝委員那這部分那個張化看搜索跟巴德外監那個在"},{"start":8338.194,"end":8340.195,"text":"我們已經啟動了五個矯正機關的擴建或新建的辦理情形。"},{"start":8358.562,"end":8378.916,"text":"那看守所的抄收比監獄嚴重但是卻優先推動監獄你五處當中都是監獄對不起喔對對對監獄當然要改啦改了四處啦看守所只改一處然後台北監獄宜蘭監獄雖然擴建完成還是抄收然後沒有因地制宜區域的分布沒關係"},{"start":8380.424,"end":8403.254,"text":"沒錢就沒有辦法進行對不對所以我們你們自己提預算好嗎好是謝謝委員自己提計畫那個委員來支持我一定支持好來但我不會自己提法案來沒收行政編列預算的權利這個基本的憲政權利分立的原則立委一定要堅守來下一頁再下一頁"},{"start":8404.574,"end":8428.992,"text":"今天針對刑事訴訟法228條之一我想您在前面很多委員的槌尋您都回答了來下一頁我針對通訊自由不限的這個部分我還是要提出我的呼籲七七以為不可因為它會影響了妨礙了犯罪的偵查如果在詢問跟這個詢問過程就還放任這個嫌疑人對外自由聯繫通話"},{"start":8431.394,"end":8432.736,"text":"下一頁我提這個案例齁"},{"start":8446.039,"end":8462.111,"text":"過去曾經有某黨涉入共諜案王炳忠曾經有一個他已經被壓了他可以在看守所裡面直播你知道嗎?"},{"start":8463.621,"end":8490.378,"text":"所以呢這就是一種非常離譜的狀況用這個案例來告訴我們通訊自由在這個階段當然是應當被限制嘛所以我要用這個案例您對這個案例有印象深刻嗎部長這個有印象這個有這個媒體有報導所以當初那這個有什麼只能自指那這個你們怎麼會有人對於執法人員被曝光也是一個對執法人員的影響"},{"start":8492,"end":8517.492,"text":"這個的確是會有這個尤其是影響那個整個偵查的一個進行所以這個修法我愛南同意我也希望未來在討論的時候我們大家能夠基於理性專業然後辦案實務的需要也盡量去避免對於個案劍指個案的這種修法的思維好我們持續努力"},{"start":8518.232,"end":8539.239,"text":"再次講您辛苦了委屈了針對那些問政一點都不強的委員我們就堅守講我們的政策立場沒有什麼毫無所懼謝謝那下一位我們請紅夢凱委員進行詢答那在紅夢凱委員詢答那個結束後我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":8551.001,"end":8580.354,"text":"好感謝主席喔那現在感覺好像立法院有作對廝殺的感覺齁不過吳委員剛剛你沒有提案說明但是你有連署禁法補償也要提高六萬元啦所以你自己沒有提案但是你有連署啦齁好來召委謝謝我們麻煩請我們我專業啊沒有問題感謝謝謝來那個我請我們司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長好不好"},{"start":8583.457,"end":8604.571,"text":"好不過剛剛吳委員我想我們還是專業問政其實吳委員剛剛提到一個重點也是我今天準備的一個資料本席想要請教我先請教一下部長部長有沒有看到我們最近新聞昨天我們也在討論說偵查不公開你當然這邊都講是說沒有沒有但是最近新聞我覺得是亂象很頻傳有這個"},{"start":8607.927,"end":8635.214,"text":"嫌疑人在被收押進鑑但是他出庭他光出庭的時候出來然後剛那個畫面媒體就去拍那我想是說第一出庭的時間媒體怎麼會知道媒體不會24小時都在那個高處來鎖定我想那麼長的時間媒體不太可能24小時在那邊那可能就變成是衍生一個他也許有人通風報信他今天會出庭"},{"start":8636.226,"end":8645.776,"text":"可能上午可能下午所以媒體他知道說他先去那邊的第二拍到那個畫面之後啊開始政論節目大作文章了"},{"start":8646.57,"end":8675.039,"text":"有沒有戴眼鏡他今天沒戴眼鏡可能他要傳達什麼樣的訊息他今天穿黃色的衣服要傳達什麼樣的訊息他今天走路甚至媒體寫什麼緊閉雙唇雙唇啊眼神非常凝重我想請教這樣子變成是說讓媒體可以捕風捉影社會輿論帶風向某程度上對於嫌疑人是不是也是有一種不公平的對待"},{"start":8675.879,"end":8680.828,"text":"部長你怎麼看?這部分我可不可以做一個報告"},{"start":8683.422,"end":8686.443,"text":"但是記者24小時不回家跟說他知道哪一個人出庭會有直接關係嗎?"},{"start":8708.968,"end":8711.03,"text":"我現在提的是說過去到現在我們都一直有看到那樣的畫面"},{"start":8734.77,"end":8737.292,"text":" bicyn Mung 程度上這是不是應該有檢討的空間或改進的空間。"},{"start":8764.93,"end":8785.32,"text":"追根究柢授本清源改進的空間我覺得其實也沒有必要說有這樣的話如果說今天那個角度真的拍不到那我想媒體朋友也比較輕鬆啦他也不用在那邊守24小時您認為呢這部分我會請台高檢來請北檢督導北檢來做不只北檢啦"},{"start":8786.741,"end":8787.702,"text":"但是從以前到現在這個影像流出多少了?"},{"start":8802.731,"end":8802.751,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":8830.96,"end":8851.285,"text":"請做一個檢討好不好因為我覺得今天剛好有藍綠委員都有提到這樣的一個問題而我們避免讓偵查中的案件好像社會輿論然後結果連一個什麼一個畫面就可以講一整晚說實在這哪像我講這看圖說故事也太嚴重了吧來部長我再請教一下"},{"start":8852.392,"end":8877.399,"text":"昨天這個直轄市高雄市啊也有議員問說這樣不贊成死刑啊高雄市所有的分局長全部都舉手贊成你有看到這新聞嗎我沒有看過這個新聞沒有看到這個新聞所以昨天我已經跟你講了就是高雄市議會這邊來做這個質詢的時候議員問說是不是贊成死刑高雄市的分局長全部都舉手"},{"start":8879.181,"end":8902.732,"text":"我 我想我也不用這邊詢問啦但我相信啦今天要說在場所有的執法人員我們司法法制委員會有人認為有人要贊成廢死有人要願意舉手嗎看起來沒有所以看起來死刑是我們高度的一個共識啊大家也認為是說我們法治社會應該要有死刑的一個"},{"start":8903.871,"end":8928.1,"text":"一個保護啊剛剛有委員有提到是說現在有37個這個死刑犯提非常上訴符合提非常上訴的一個資格那現在有多少人符合以及現在提的狀況怎麼樣這個現在由最高檢察署在審核中那我不清楚這部分的剛剛我看有委員在詢問的時候也沒有辦法回答這是機密嗎這個在審核這部分齁"},{"start":8933.462,"end":8951.342,"text":"這是機密嗎?已經三審定驗的37名死刑犯其中有長達已經定驗了20幾年了我印象沒有錯的話最久的應該是24年1999年8月的時候三審定驗的死刑犯到目前都還沒有執行死刑"},{"start":8952.523,"end":8965.07,"text":"那這37名死刑犯有提非常上訴嗎?現在還沒有提 有多少人有符合資格?這部分我沒辦法跟委員報告 那誰有辦法?這是機密嗎?"},{"start":8965.07,"end":8973.395,"text":"那個總長有在因為我們是 總長 你閉目養神喔 我揣一條好像不關你的事捏 這個"},{"start":8979.008,"end":9000.468,"text":"委員你講話我每句話都非常認真在聽是用閉目養神的方式是不是來請回答這個我們在10月24號我們要給羅委員一個文他問了問槌尋的事項跟委員完全一樣我們是依照憲判制第8判決的意旨我們現在調卷在逐項研議中"},{"start":9002.585,"end":9028.946,"text":"我問說你有沒有聽清楚我的問題我問是說有多少37名死刑犯有多少人符合提出非常上訴的資格我們在研議中那有沒有符合資格符合了我們自然就會提起非常上訴那什麼時候會研議出來什麼時候會研議出來我們等到有結果的時候我們就會跟跟依法提起來依法提出"},{"start":9032.771,"end":9035.133,"text":"總統,你完全沒有針對本席的問題回答問題。總統,本席的問題有那麼難以理解嗎?還是你現在是認為這是官僚?部長你可以接受這樣的一個答詢嗎?的一個態度嗎?"},{"start":9058.783,"end":9082.485,"text":"本來在審這個是很慎重的本來就要一種很嚴密的很審慎的一個態度去依照憲判意旨以及卷證的因為卷證的這些的資料再去審酌可不可以提起非常上述的一個空間嗎這個個案的問題這個現在我想總長我想部長總長看起來你們都不敢面對國人的質疑啊"},{"start":9083.294,"end":9104.633,"text":"本席會在這邊提出來這個問題並不是無敵方﹖我想用最謹慎的、最慎重的態度去處理它每一次你們都是用最謹慎的態度、最嚴謹的態度在協助死刑犯這一點是國人到現在最沒有辦法接受的地方就每一次我在這﹖我已經很好生好氣囉說實在的部長"},{"start":9106.345,"end":9131.092,"text":"我上一次在這邊質詢您的時候我講的就是劉宗鑫所長的案件我就講說劉宗鑫所長他被一個獨家犯這樣子給撞離開劉宗鑫所長就這樣子天人永隔你有沒有看到前兩天我去參加他的告別式的時候他的女兒怎麼講他女兒講是說可不可以請老天爺讓他爸爸回來結果你們現在在講的是說你們現在在講的是說聽好你們現在在講的是說"},{"start":9137.506,"end":9150.259,"text":"我們要很謹慎的很慎重的對待這些死刑犯。這個本來就是要審的,要用慎重的態度去審。慎重嚴謹是要保護好人並不是要保護壞人。這種態度沒有辦法嗎?我們就是對壞人要不懷疑要一個追究嘛。所以我們態度是跟委員是一樣的。"},{"start":9162.489,"end":9175.431,"text":"副部長我沒有辦法現在我沒有辦法跟你以一樣的態度來因為抱歉啊讓那個副秘書長在那邊站比較久我最後一分鐘好不好抱歉我的時間也到了最後一分鐘請教副秘書長"},{"start":9176.943,"end":9204.125,"text":"副組長我只要請教一下啦因為現在今天下午我們草野會有在座協商的一個空間那針對就是現在所謂這個總預算的一個部分我想之前可能有委員也都有質詢過但我想還是要釐清一下說憲法法庭的一個態度或是說這個條件就是當我們三讀通過的法令行政部門有認為自愛難行之處第一他要做什麼樣的一個處置"},{"start":9206.738,"end":9233.155,"text":"公委員報告那因為看媒體講說說可能會有憲法上面的問題但是公委員報告因為我們司法行政單位不能去救憲法法庭的部分去將來假設我先請教就是說我們憲法徵修條文裡面有提到嘛就是說當行政院對於立法院決議的法律案預算案或是條約案認為有摯愛難行之處他馬上就提起釋憲嗎"},{"start":9235.99,"end":9246.244,"text":"那個跟委員報告因為那個司法院的秘書處不能就憲法法庭的部分去不是我現在請教你憲法申修條文條文內容"},{"start":9250.088,"end":9272.303,"text":"憲法徵修條文第三條行政院對於立法院決議的法律案預算案條約案如認為有至愛難行之處得在該決議案送達行政院十日內以請立法院復議所以說行政部門認為法律案預算案條約案有認為至愛難行之處要以請立法院復議嗎?"},{"start":9273.624,"end":9280.569,"text":"那請教我們剛剛現在社會大眾一直在關心的這個禁法補償條例有行政部門有附議嗎?"},{"start":9282.501,"end":9303.316,"text":"沒有總統公告了接下來再來是第47條是刑法訴訟法47條如果說國家最高機關就法的規範認為有抵觸憲法者得申請憲法法庭作為宣告違憲制判決這是七條的要點對不對"},{"start":9306.124,"end":9329.158,"text":"但在48條裡面有特別提到前項法規如果抵觸憲法一役各機關於職權範圍內得自行排除者不得申請換言之現在很多的委員或甚至說這個行政院院長在講是說這個是違憲違憲是說我們通過法令案把民定這個是違憲您覺得說有違憲嗎"},{"start":9332.572,"end":9337.034,"text":"但是48條講很清楚嘛各機關的全責範圍內自行排除是啊那我想請教我們現在的法律就副秘書長我們現在的法律有沒有哪一些法律裡面明文規定有必須要多少的一個費用"},{"start":9358.868,"end":9360.509,"text":"所以說其實我們六法全書裡面或說各相關的一個法令其實也都有相關的一個費用啊"},{"start":9377.455,"end":9379.057,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具〈刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":9395.808,"end":9413.398,"text":"行法訴訟法裡面也明擺的規定如果說機關的一個爭議要提起釋憲但是他跟其他的這個法條其實根本沒有構成要件的時候你認為可以接受符合這樣釋憲的要件嗎?委員報告是不是符合要件我們不是憲法法庭不能不能去就這邊去智慧"},{"start":9415.612,"end":9433.318,"text":"我真的期待啊司法法制委員會之前在這邊都是有風骨的法律人能夠來備詢講實話你可以多說你可以少說但是不說謊不造假但是我現在非常的遺憾部長總長還是副秘書長真的"},{"start":9437.761,"end":9456.454,"text":"質證是一時任何人都會質證但是你們法律人是永久的留一些名聲給大家談聽謝謝好謝謝那我們就依照先前的宣告休息五分鐘那那個部長因為另有要事所以部長要先離開"},{"start":9855.531,"end":9868.059,"text":"好 謝謝各位時間到我們現在開始開會那下一位我們請楊瓊英委員進行詢答謝謝主席楊瓊英發言首先請檢察總長麻煩總長好委員好"},{"start":9883.409,"end":9897.244,"text":"總統好 我想最近民眾黨主席的這個案子到目前為止我們一再民眾在這近兩個月當中一再有偵查內容被特定媒體來曝光"},{"start":9899.126,"end":9922.203,"text":"外界也很多的質疑也就是有黨檢媒一體而且是刻意的來帶風向那在學者的認為在整個民主政治的機制當中所有的案件在未確定判決前都是採取無罪推論是嗎?"},{"start":9926.932,"end":9949.694,"text":"是如此,你那個麥克風要按下去是無罪貼論但是現在外界這樣的一個質疑這樣的手段不僅是讓訴訟當事人不公平也讓偵查不公開的原則變成是一個公開的笑話當然今天很多人都在關心這個議案我們希望我們還是依法來辦"},{"start":9951.295,"end":9960.164,"text":"但是剛剛呢總長你有談到一句喔本席覺得非常的訝異喔你說有的媒體他是因為24小時在那邊剛剛誰說的哪一位說的法務部長說的剛剛誰說的"},{"start":9972.273,"end":9986.047,"text":"所以如果是這樣論點我要請教檢察總長也就是我們不管是怎麼樣就是偵查不公開如果沒有公開他就沒有辦法去得到資訊是不是如此是不是以這個原則"},{"start":9990.834,"end":10017.911,"text":"抱歉委員您說這個不公開就沒辦法得到資訊是不是這個意思偵查不公開嘛剛剛有法務部還誰說是他有談論到因為記者24小時來跟要解釋這個原理那所以本席說不管誰怎麼跟如果我們的資訊沒有公開那沒有人有辦法知道啊"},{"start":10021.499,"end":10039.693,"text":"跟委員報告這個偵查不公開是檢察官的天職也是檢察官的倫理更是檢察官的職業道德這我百分之百認同所以在每一件案件偵辦的時候我就再三的跟我們裁判的檢察官講一定要落實偵查不公開的原則"},{"start":10040.754,"end":10050.092,"text":"那至於剛剛委員崛巡所指教的那個部分那因為剛剛並不是我所答覆的所以我不瞭解當時答覆他的背景是怎麼樣的謝謝"},{"start":10051.482,"end":10075.129,"text":"好那如果照你這麼說我們還是維持偵查不公開而且你再次的宣誓嘛那要請教目前這一兩個月當中沸沸騰騰甚至引申到這個帶風向球所以在這樣情況之下總長你看到這樣的一個社會面向你認為還有哪些可以去做精進的方案"},{"start":10076.638,"end":10099.759,"text":"這個委員報告我們司法院今天副部長也在座有頒布了一個偵查不公開作業辦法在這個法規命令裡面內容規定的非常嚴格他不僅偵查的內容不能公開偵查的程序也不能公開但是圖法不足以自行規定那麼嚴格可是在實務上的配套措施其實這個並不"},{"start":10102.381,"end":10102.401,"text":"閱讀者﹚"},{"start":10125.27,"end":10149.822,"text":"但是這個畢竟案件是檢察官在偵辦的說我們有義務有義務讓案情要保持這個縝密保持當事人的尊嚴這樣也能夠符合行政司法規定偵查不公開的意義如果做不到這點的話那實在是我們都要檢討所以那這個如果要做的話當然整個制度都要來檢討"},{"start":10151.559,"end":10175.76,"text":"但是如果說有人刻意的泄露監察的內容的話 那真的是非常不足取對 所以不足取 那麼因為社會大眾有這樣的疑慮 所以我們也希望也要求總長你要將相關你認為在整個執行過程當中有不妥適的地方 我們應該要好好的去研議 是吧"},{"start":10180.731,"end":10199.877,"text":"我再講一遍,這個圖法不足以自省,如果說民眾也喜歡這樣的八卦或很血腥的這種場面的話,那這個有供就有需啦,有供有需要自然就會提供一些真真假假的新聞。"},{"start":10202.791,"end":10204.272,"text":"我們整個文化也都要檢討了"},{"start":10230.37,"end":10241.38,"text":"我們下一位請廖偉祥進行詢答廖偉祥政政前我們下一位請翁曉林委員進行詢答"},{"start":10251.963,"end":10268.93,"text":"主席現在有請保護部黃次長還有司法院的黃副秘書長今天本席所談的還是想說是從"},{"start":10270.455,"end":10294.957,"text":"大法官作成死刑有條件和憲的憲法判決裏面來談這個事情那麼我們知道大法官在這次的憲法判決裏面其實設下了一些門檻那外界當然有批評大法官是不是造法他設下了一些門檻那麼看起來就是現在有待法務部跟司法院可能都分別必須要修法"},{"start":10295.638,"end":10306.105,"text":"那麼再次在這次的大法官所做成的憲法判決當中其實有些地方還是不是很清楚因為他在憲法判決裡面他是針對申請人所提出來的四項死刑的條文那麼做出解釋那麼看起來如果說從我們現在講的這個憲法判決他的主要有效的拘束範圍應該就是指這四條殺人罪那麼要求要有這個要有這個健行強制辯護"},{"start":10325.919,"end":10329.692,"text":"的程序不管是在第三審還是在偵查"},{"start":10331.636,"end":10331.656,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":10363.076,"end":10378.521,"text":"行事訴訟法應該是請秘書長這邊先回答那委員好那當然這一次的這個那個宪判制他的標的是這四條沒有錯那其他的部分其他的部分沒有沒有沒有在這個標的範圍內那將來如果說"},{"start":10381.522,"end":10402.896,"text":"他們其他的相關有死刑的不在但是不是在這一個事實範圍內要去參照去法務部講因為他是法務部主政法務部參照修法的話那司法院是尊重的因為刑事訴訟法是屬於司法院要修法所以呢就是未來有關於強制辯護的程序的話是會一體適用在所有的死刑"},{"start":10403.436,"end":10419.165,"text":"所以你們現在內部還沒有進行討論嗎?我們正在研議中但是今天假設會有宣告死刑的案例第一個我想刑事訴訟不是只有這四條我們應該會去參照去做相關的這些規範"},{"start":10426.889,"end":10428.211,"text":"所以簡單來說你們會做通盤的考慮對不對通盤的考量是不是全部都要一併修法那法務部的"},{"start":10440.829,"end":10461.446,"text":"根據宣判8號的判決意旨跟本部有關係主管法規包括刑法跟監獄刑法做修正那刑法的部分包括19條第二項的不得判處死刑的部分那我們要修在我們的刑法裡面另外有關於訴訟中的這個辯護能力如果有欠缺與不得判處死刑這部分刑法裡面要做相應的規定"},{"start":10462.307,"end":10487.268,"text":"另外還有先判之八號提到有關於假釋特殊的假釋要不要提高假釋門檻的部分我們的假釋規定也要做相應的處理。這樣有關授刑能力就涉及到我們的監獄刑警法以及刑事訴訟法的修正。好簡單來說你們也是會通盤的考量嗎?不會說是只針對因為這涉及到這四條的死刑罪而被而判刑的這個部分那會"},{"start":10490.363,"end":10507.655,"text":"就整體的所有涉及到死刑的條文都一併的我們一併來處理那現在的情況就是說因為大法官的憲法判決已經做成了那麼在這段時間你們的態度是怎麼樣是立刻就要依照大法官的判決意旨來處理"},{"start":10511.053,"end":10532.957,"text":"還是你們現在司法院跟法務部這裡的做法是什麼因為我們知道其實有一些案因為這個這個相關的訴訟案件都在進行中然後呢整個的偵查程序也都是一直在進行中那麼所以就原來已經在偵查程序的這些案子你們要怎麼樣補正相關的這個程序做法"},{"start":10534.626,"end":10554.325,"text":"在審判中的話因為宪判有幾個包含說一致決強制編戶這些都是立即生效的那當然在訴訟進行中的案子我們大概會到宪判一直來做有一些他有給期限的要研議的那一部分那一部分要看那個主文的很多項我們會依照宪判一直來去傳"},{"start":10554.986,"end":10577.912,"text":"但是對於像是這個偵查現在我相信一定這個實務上有非常多的案子都是在這個偵查程序當中那麼所以現在法務部已經要求所有的偵查階段的檢警調都要依照大法官的意旨要實施強制辯護嗎?要引進公社律師或是找法復的律師?"},{"start":10578.789,"end":10598.249,"text":"我跟委員報告齁那我們憲判制大法官他的判決是指就是說偵查中的強制辯護他是原則上希望我們兩年內修法那如果兩年內沒有完成修法的話憲判制他已經有一個具體的指示要該怎麼做那而且他具名指名就是說現在已經存在的程序是不受影響的"},{"start":10598.969,"end":10627.032,"text":"所以就是兩年之後才會正式的開始實施這樣子的一個這樣子的要求對但是我還是要講就是在不斷的提醒因為大法官這次做的憲判是事實上已經造成整個偵查當中的可能會發生強制辯護有致案難行的地方就是這個對於警察還有這個檢體調的人員他們在偵訊過程當中可能當時的這個犯罪事實還不是很清楚"},{"start":10627.392,"end":10627.412,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":10651.541,"end":10677.012,"text":"這個在偵查程序當中現在要有這個法復的律師進來未來會有法復的律師進來可是法律輔助的基金會的經費的部分我看到在這次的114年的預算書當中當然司法院可能當時還來不及應變所以沒有提出相關的預算修正案但是事實上這也很重要對不對這應該也要趕快準備還有就是說我本期有"},{"start":10677.752,"end":10697.088,"text":"去整理目前的法服的狀況事實上每一年大概有六萬多件的要申請法服的核准的予以輔助的案件那在檢警偵訊當中在檢警的這個偵查程序當中有法服的律師陪同的大概四千多件若說一般案件裡面"},{"start":10697.968,"end":10720.513,"text":"的有重刑的這個案件的話大概有六千多大概有六千多件嘛我記得所以呢對於整個的法服的經費來講它會大幅的提升那就這個部分來說這的確會增加國家的負擔司法預算經費的負擔那你們未來有沒有什麼比較好的一個應變的做法"},{"start":10721.56,"end":10740.747,"text":"跟委員報告那法服今年的預算大概15億但是還沒有當時還沒有這一個憲判當然憲判出來之後我們會跟法務會法務基金會他們目前正在盤點是不是他們能夠在預算範圍內能夠負荷"},{"start":10743.388,"end":10743.408,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":10760.035,"end":10784.021,"text":"司法實務界一定會針對大法官所作成的這號限判制感到非常的困擾因為會出現非常多實務上難以處理的問題那這部分的話希望法務部還有司法院你們都要盡快的提出相關的修法那麼或者是說要積極的召開"},{"start":10785.581,"end":10806.704,"text":"公聽會這個研討會然後來處理這個問題否則的話我想我們即將要進入了就是大強制辯護時代到底十五屆準備好了嗎尤其是在基層的第一線人員檢警掉他們對於這方面的認知是否瞭解而且之後如果說有引用法條錯誤"},{"start":10807.785,"end":10815.065,"text":"然後之後再來回來有機會再重新去補正那個沒有強制辯護的程序他會是不是會影響到證據力"},{"start":10817.659,"end":10843.453,"text":"跟我們報告,事實上我們現在偵查中的辯護我們在刑訴法有關於這個身心障礙或是原住民現實上事實上就已經是強制辯護了但現辦判決之後未來會增加幾個重罪所以就我們檢警來講其實他已經在偵查中的辯護他已經印製多年了只是未來量的部分會增加只是說做法上是沒有什麼不一樣而且還有涉及到一個問題就是如果說當事人犯罪嫌疑人他不願意"},{"start":10845.817,"end":10868.31,"text":"請律師呢?他不願意就是接受強制辯護對那我們在31條的部分他有做個特別規定他如果不願意當然就沒有強制辯護了他如果不願意可是問題現在大法官的要求是不管看起來是不管犯罪嫌疑人他沒有講要求他跟審判中的強制辯護他做了一個不同強度的處理他如果他不需要或者等待超過四小時我們就不必強制辯護了對"},{"start":10870.031,"end":10885.584,"text":"好那我想就是如果說法務部跟司法院這邊你們過去都已經有了些實務的經驗那麼就應該要更積極迅速的提出修法不要讓外界對這部分的話不是很清楚未來我們的實務的走法是如何好謝謝"},{"start":10888.346,"end":10888.946,"text":"現在有請吳宗憲委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":10919.653,"end":10921.821,"text":"好謝謝我們麻煩行總長黃次長還有黃副秘"},{"start":10931.659,"end":10951.971,"text":"委員好我先請教那個新總長好了總長你好總長上一次你也有參加那個林育雄老師他說對於那個違法偵查救濟的研討會嘛這個上面這邊還有照片是"},{"start":10953.433,"end":10970.475,"text":"所以說其實從學界的角度來看他們也是認為說在執行偵查的時候我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽那讓這個被調查者也能夠將來進行公平的審判我想說這個應該是非常認同"},{"start":10973.089,"end":10999.076,"text":"其實就是說國家因為他長有非常多的偵查武器那我們身為民意代表我們當然就會稍微看一下這個國家他長有這些偵查武器偵查資源的時候他有沒有使用過度去侵害到人權或者是說我們希望說人民能夠受到公平的審判那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為反而導致到人權受到侵害"},{"start":11000.056,"end":11019.296,"text":"我非常認同是好謝謝總長總長剛剛講了一個東西其實我可以認同總長剛剛跟很多委員所說的一個部分就是有很多委員所提到的說最近這個偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決那總長當然是說因為歷次的修法造成"},{"start":11020.077,"end":11040.076,"text":" ﹏其實偵查不公開這個執行上面會越來越困難﹏例如說激壓律師可以越卷這也是一個卸出一些偵查秘密的管道這個我都經歷過我可以認同但是現在有一個問題就是說因為最近這幾年這個偵查期間的資料外洩的狀況"},{"start":11041.397,"end":11055.987,"text":"越來越嚴重那甚至你看最近有週刊他就是逐週在報導那這些東西當然部長歷次來他是說他這些人報的不一定是事實可能自己猜的但是在起訴之後"},{"start":11057.188,"end":11072.522,"text":"閱论資料曝光,我們就知道這些東西是不是真的。你再回過頭去看之前有幾個案子已經起訴的結果他們洩出來,譬如說林志廟的案子搜索現場的照片,再搜索完就流出來。像這個我覺得就是這都是不應該啦。"},{"start":11074.925,"end":11086.135,"text":"剛剛我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足但是配套不足是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院開始就配套的部分要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞"},{"start":11087.543,"end":11113.456,"text":"否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開那我們也不能說因為配套不足所以我無能為力或者是說像部長來是說因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了有院方的有檢方的有司法警察甚至有律師有當事人所以我沒辦法我覺得可能我們"},{"start":11115.216,"end":11125.592,"text":"那個公部門不能這樣回答嘛那我想請教一下總長有沒有一個思考就是說將來怎麼樣跟請部裡面跟司法院能夠協調這件事情"},{"start":11129.247,"end":11148.013,"text":"每個案件的類型不一樣每個案件的形態主客觀條件都不一樣所以如果說有違反偵查不公開的話他所呈現的態樣跟面貌途徑也都各有不同但不管怎麼樣檢察官竟然是偵查的主體最起碼我們檢察官自己"},{"start":11152.898,"end":11178.003,"text":"一定要堅守這個偵查不公開所以在每一個專案會議的時候我在前面一定跟檢察官講這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職也是我們檢察官的道德那因此我再講回來剛剛前面的因為每個案件他的形態有的先天比如說被害人很多被害人很多參與的人很多那保密當然就比較困難啊有的人這種很縝密的案件比如說"},{"start":11182.584,"end":11203.829,"text":"總統我們兩個都是專業的我也幹了20年檢察官所以我們不要去講那些場面話我們直接切重點這裡面就回到問題的重點因為形態各有不同你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法因此最重要的我們檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候我們要把這個正常不公開這個規定我們要遵守"},{"start":11205.782,"end":11223.527,"text":"總統因為這樣還是沒有回答到回答到那這樣變成說是無解嘛我們報告這是個供需的問題啦只能盡量啦只能盡量不可能啦完全都沒有所以我們對於政法不公開官方的想法就是盡量喔這樣不太好吧"},{"start":11224.837,"end":11224.858,"text":"總統,我認為……"},{"start":11247.421,"end":11276.103,"text":"沒關係 那總長因為我沒有問到我要的我就說啦就是說總長因為我們都是內行人其實回答我的話我們就直接切重點講那個該講的阿其實場面化我覺得不需要你說跟我還是這樣希望啦所以我在指希望事實上就是這樣子好那就是無且只能盡量嘛所以我在這邊還是蠻希望的啦總長因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛那"},{"start":11277.076,"end":11291.067,"text":"還是要麻煩你能夠跟檢察官想拜託他們要嚴守偵查不公開那檢察官在每一個案子他就是偵查主體的總指揮官他也要去要求他所帶的一些司法警察以及"},{"start":11292.165,"end":11319.256,"text":"那個地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分然後再麻煩總長能夠能夠做到如果說讓民眾認為說我們都沒有沒有做到違反不偵查不公開的話事實上就在摧毀摧毀司法的威信了其實我們看都非常痛心了當然現在洩漏出來到底是不是偵查內容有沒有真有沒有假那這就不一定因此我要跟委員報告這裡面很多簽到案件的偵辦的性質裡面有一些東西最後還是"},{"start":11320.757,"end":11324.329,"text":"這個我們檢察官要盡量在我們自己能夠掌控的部分掌控"},{"start":11325.417,"end":11350.164,"text":"我知道很多資料現在洩出來的一定有很多是以訛傳訛的假東西嘛這我們都能夠理解但是我今天我就講我沒有下定論最近鬧的那麼轟烈的事我沒有下過定論我只說起訴以後如果我們從確診資料來看這些記者報出來的資料如果確實是確診資料裡面有而且本來就不應該流出去的那又是另外一個問題嘛"},{"start":11351.024,"end":11379.683,"text":"那我現在剛剛我有說到了我是就之前有幾件已經起訴的案子或者是為什麼楊文科被搜索完隔沒有多久他連家裡扣到多少錢記者都會知道所以這個就不應該嘛因為楊文科本人說對我就是被扣那麼多錢啊所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道他根本當隔天新聞一出來他就說我就是扣那麼多錢為什麼外界會知道所以我還是這樣子希望啦"},{"start":11381.731,"end":11408.857,"text":"總統你剛剛說的因為多次違反偵查不公開對司法的違信傷害很重對執政黨也傷害很重因為有人就開始穿槽附會說是賴政府下令要幹這個事啊我是不相信啦但是很多民眾會信嘛有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題所以對政府也不好對檢查體系也不好我在意的是這個點所以跟總統說明這個部分那一樣我還是蠻希望的啦就是說外界現在誤認說我們"},{"start":11411.999,"end":11429.658,"text":"外界誤認說正義是向政治力傾斜所以要麻煩一定要注意這個而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來像我們民意代表我們要監督政府不是護航政府司法也不是護航政府所以我們還是希望說"},{"start":11432.691,"end":11445.996,"text":"大家和就緒司法人員一定要注意到這個部分好謝謝那我再問一下那個那個司法院齁司法院我想請問一下法官檢察官齁如果違法裝GPS調查人民現行法人民可不可以就緒"},{"start":11449.327,"end":11470.965,"text":"違法裝GPS調查人民那現行法有沒有辦法救濟他如果說法案檢察官的話那那依照我們的那個那那個153現在153之10嘛153之10嘛就是可以可以救濟可以救濟那請問一下如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權自己去裝那有沒有辦法救濟"},{"start":11471.894,"end":11493.888,"text":"委員報告那一開始我們的書面報告就有寫我們是我們原來的草案是說以成集化的方式規劃所以他依照後面的話可能在本案裡面依照刑訴158之4那麼證據排除那假設他本身有故意過失故意過失那造成人民的這個隱私受不害的話那麼有國家賠償那行政責任更不必講"},{"start":11494.488,"end":11509.065,"text":"所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身的處分的合法性所以我們的書面他說到底是要在前階段就說一個違法宣告還是說到後階段真正時機就計的時候那邊去做判斷這是一個政策的問題"},{"start":11509.505,"end":11529.279,"text":"不過因為我看過你們的報告你們是認為說可以用國賠或個資這些去救濟對不對但是在我立場因為當初我推的版本其實有包括到司法警察的部分也可以救濟但是後來當然通過的版本是依照司法院的版本就是沒有但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法我認為說"},{"start":11531.492,"end":11553.534,"text":"如果說司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話可以用什麼就是他直接去提告國賠或個資就可以的話那法官檢察官也可以啊為什麼法官檢察官有一個救濟方式結果那個司法警察卻沒有那這個會導致什麼問題因為我們實務界說我們很清楚"},{"start":11554.796,"end":11565.331,"text":"會導致警察不敢做事啊就像醫生的那個預防性醫療一樣很多事我就不幹了嘛然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況修法前我們都很清楚"},{"start":11566.383,"end":11591.321,"text":"不能裝GPS的時代那警察就是去找徵信社去偷裝嘛東西食物都這樣做啊我們現在面對現實遇到這個狀況所以是不是說把它變成是一個司法警察如果做這些事情在我們刑事訴訟法上面也可以救濟那至少警察他做事情比較不怕否則現在警察他到底該做不做"},{"start":11592.416,"end":11611.51,"text":"他又要再想啦因為我做了被告像那個海巡那個最早海巡裝GPS那個被判刑的那個人一樣嘛他就我這麼努力查緝毒品就到最後我被判刑了所以我還是一個我是提我的想法啦就當初我自己的版本的時候是這樣那沒關係這個我們將來也可以再慢慢的再討論這個部分"},{"start":11613.131,"end":11613.651,"text":"最後請教延續剛剛幾個委員提到的問題總長還有黃次長請問一下"},{"start":11627.23,"end":11655.009,"text":"因為總長因為這一次憲判確實有點名有五個死刑犯要非常上訴啦齁那我想你一定很清楚就是盧倫勒署唯一死刑那兩位以及有三位他認為說有精神障礙譬如說林于如那三位被告齁那我我現在就發現一個問題就是說林于如這個案子為例好了當時其實是判決三審定驗死刑的的那個被告齁那結果呢"},{"start":11656.209,"end":11680.826,"text":"被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個"},{"start":11684.591,"end":11687.276,"text":"當然我們不是專家我要說明一下我是認為說我個人認為這個的確這個這樣是不夠的我跟總統報告一下齁"},{"start":11693.305,"end":11722.965,"text":"我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我自己測驗每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個"},{"start":11723.565,"end":11726.688,"text":" （刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．一）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．一）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":11752.388,"end":11775.204,"text":"我做出來我也可以我說真的啦我大學的時候做資歷測驗是146啦那我現在要把自己做成46我覺得也很簡單我都自己算一算拿幾題我全部答錯就好所以這個地方我真的是要麻煩總長可能要注意一下因為非常上述是您要提我非常尊重你我以前在當檢察官我就非常尊重你那也希望說總長"},{"start":11777.659,"end":11788.449,"text":"我們最近一直在提的幾件事情要麻煩總長注意一下我不再去提別的我想說就提幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下"},{"start":11790.598,"end":11810.29,"text":"為什麼我一直最近我一直強調說非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題我一直點出這個但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點這個問題出來因為這非常的嚴重我想請教總長當被告如果非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候他們適不適用無罪推定"},{"start":11811.805,"end":11831.419,"text":"這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定如果法院撤銷的話當然就回歸到無罪推定是一定回歸到無罪推定這就是我國的法制所以我們將來可能會遇到的問題是我說第一個法官可能不押因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了嘛因為我國積壓積壓就只有101跟101之一"},{"start":11834.481,"end":11854.002,"text":"那將來回歸到普通法院之後申請如果說你們要建議法官羈押我想請教總長你們當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候要用哪一條建議因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押他符合哪一個101是只有逃亡滅政102"},{"start":11856.567,"end":11871.365,"text":"而一零一之一反覆實施還裡面關了二十幾年我怎麼認定要反覆實施所以跟總黨報告第一個點這三十七個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法案審理就有可能法官不採不採押"},{"start":11873.577,"end":11900.109,"text":"總部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧問題我就說那萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦或者是因為他很有智慧我國又是成文法國家所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定不押怎麼辦因為總長您的非常上述讓這37個刑事案裡面部分人回歸普通法案審理的時候回歸那一天他就回家了啊這很恐怖欸好那第二個"},{"start":11901.67,"end":11928.044,"text":"我們剛剛就是那個羅志強委員有提到激壓的期限回歸到二審的話剩下15個月那15個月你又還要做精神鑑定又還要開庭又還要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完那過了15個月一到就只能放人沒有第二條路這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性第三個可能性"},{"start":11930.926,"end":11949.303,"text":"因為依據刑法施行法七之一七之二這些人他的假釋門檻是適用行為時也就是說他們是適用舊法十五年的假釋規定所以這些人只要一回歸到普通法院他可能很快就可以申請假釋啊"},{"start":11950.584,"end":11965.191,"text":"那假設他在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛那怎麼辦你又沒有駁回的理由那萬一你要讓他假設嗎這是一個第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期"},{"start":11965.911,"end":11984.81,"text":"因為死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折禮刑期是以前是這樣規定沒有錯而且以前也沒毛病因為你都要槍決了還折禮什麼刑期啊所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折禮刑期的問題但是我跟你百分之百保證會有一群人權團體出來說"},{"start":11986.578,"end":11986.598,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":12017.158,"end":12043.675,"text":"黃次長拜託總長拜託副秘一定要解決這個問題否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師我隨便就打趴隨便就打趴法官讓法官能夠把這些人放出來我可以舉一大堆理由一大堆裁定的潛力一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押這些人必須放出去這是我一直煩惱的事我真的不是在找官員的麻煩我今天點出這是我我20年實務經驗"},{"start":12045.276,"end":12072.402,"text":"我覺得這是解決不了的問題那這問題跟三位完全無關這是大法官那偉大大法官捅出來的婁子那在那邊跟各位報告再麻煩各位就以蒼生為念要替我們社會上這些百姓想想今天這些人如果回到社會跟我住同一個社區我說真的我不敢讓小孩子晚上出門不敢讓小孩子獨自出門好再麻煩各位謝謝各位委員的正義感我們會審慎處理謝謝"},{"start":12085.471,"end":12103.219,"text":"我們先做會議時間的處理上會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答完畢為止接下來我們請王鴻薇委員發言王鴻薇 王鴻薇 高金素梅 高金素梅 高金素梅接下來我們請陳俊宇委員進行詢答"},{"start":12116.869,"end":12140.579,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請司法院黃副秘書長麻煩副秘書長我順道請那個我們法務部的黃次長跟我們廉政署的馮署長好馮署長那我等一下如果有時間最後面我會請教我們警政署的張署長那後面再請好了好謝謝主席那"},{"start":12143.168,"end":12167.4,"text":"各位首長午安了那我們今天就這個刑事訴訟法當中部分條文的這個修正進行併案的討論特別是對於我們上會期所通過的特殊強制處分的這個章節上有討論的空間那這邊我想就這個刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十的內容來就交與我們副秘書長"},{"start":12168.6,"end":12188.107,"text":"從司法院的書面報告當中我們對於本條在立場上似乎是有傾向維持現行版本但是在提案當中也提到現行法只允許對法官檢察官所為的科技偵查來做救濟未能充分的保障受處分者"},{"start":12188.747,"end":12209.778,"text":"可能有違背這個有權力及救濟的這個法理原則那這邊我想請教複密也請您這個說明認為我們現行制度的在實務情形上不需再增訂的理由以及我們司法院對於這個司法資源分配上所產生的疑慮為何"},{"start":12211.741,"end":12235.419,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那我們順便報告也有寫說其實各個國家齁 針對這種短期像那個如果說是比較長期的齁 像它超過24小時或者是超過兩天 它本身就要事先要有令狀齁 或者是要緊急的情況 所以現在的發生認為認為要補的是這種這個時間比較短的 然後也沒有延續性都比較短 比較輕微的這種"},{"start":12236.34,"end":12253.609,"text":" ）"},{"start":12253.729,"end":12253.769,"text":"閱议委員"},{"start":12283.609,"end":12283.949,"text":" （刑事訴訟法的量能（"},{"start":12303.806,"end":12306.868,"text":"才救濟這一部分的現實司法上面的承擔我們還必須去做斟酌所以我們才會請說那個委員們能夠斟酌也不是說沒有救濟將來他的證據有問題他還是會被排除他有被這些實施違法實施的這個公務人員警察他有責任他還是要去復起來"},{"start":12324.88,"end":12344.852,"text":"那時候也會去判斷是不是要在前階段這是一個政策政策決定那當然當然也請委員們大院能夠斟酌說我們司法的負擔政策決定也非常清楚那在第五項當中所授權的有關這個事項的辦法是由我們司法院這個會同行政院定制"},{"start":12345.532,"end":12360.482,"text":"那我想再就叫我們複密相關的這個執法在過去一段時間研擬的情形為何那目前這個草案是否已經擬定完成那預計多久之後會嫌這個行政院的這個部分來做公告"},{"start":12361.271,"end":12389.648,"text":"跟委員報告關於這一個一百一五三之十第五項的這個執法我們已經有三次的這個諮詢會那麼草案剛才有跟另外一位委員報告跟大院報告說我們草案現在已經大致上面就緒那麼在很快的時間內做最後的這些核對可能就可以送到大院但是因為今天有委員提案民眾黨的提案是整個一五三之十都要刪除並到四一六所以這一點是我們比較憂心的"},{"start":12390.549,"end":12418.617,"text":"目前我們在研擬快要好的那個那個執法的這個授權根據會變成沒有那這個因為這部分在在有跟委員報告說各個國家都這個都非常重要這樣讓他怎麼做他跟一般的一般的處分是不同的很多的國家甚至在母法裡面就定到非常非常詳細底下這一種這一種徵收所得到的東西要怎麼處都定在母法我們是至少要有一個這個這個授權命令給我們我們才能夠才能夠去做那但是速度我們絕對會盡快"},{"start":12420.086,"end":12448.247,"text":"所以還沒有公布的這個事件但是已經草案已經大致上就緒好還要經過行政院這一邊好那當然我們今天看到了有不同的委員和黨團的這個提案版本對於這個修法的意見有別那就連這個法務部和司法院之間對於這個條文修正的意見也未必完全有共識我想這個重點還是在有效打擊這個詐欺的犯罪和保障"},{"start":12448.507,"end":12467.961,"text":"議員．"},{"start":12468.737,"end":12484.811,"text":"近期內這個我們國防部有這個高階將官和情報人員各自外洩的事件那發生這種不該發生的事情不但引發社會嘩然那我想軍方也相當的懊惱從目前所有了解的"},{"start":12487.182,"end":12513.573,"text":"請醒來看是因為人為疏失那在公文程序上處理不當所造成的而國防部我們的部長昨天也在這個詢答的時候表示目前已經有這個法務部廉政署介入調查那我想請教署長那本案的這個行政調查就是由這個廉政署主責嗎那目前進度為何預計多久的時間能夠完成"},{"start":12514.493,"end":12543.893,"text":"是,謝謝委員垂詢。跟委員報告一下,這件事情因為情治人員的這個安全部分是我想國人都非常重視。所以一旦發生了這個事情之後,第一個時間聯證署之事以後就已經有派人去國防部進行了解。那相關的這個行政還有有沒有涉及到刑事的部分,我們會儘速的調查。那有關於行政責任的部分,我們會儘速在近日內就可以去釐清。然後就是說如果有這個責任的部分都會加以追究。"},{"start":12545.414,"end":12567.128,"text":"好那後續的調查的這個行政處分的部分是交由國防部還是我們廉政署來追究我們目前上面的那個行政調查因為國防部他是請國防部政風室這邊在做然後我們的部分因為他有涉及到政風人員所以我們廉政署也有派我們的視察室去針對政風人員有沒有涉及到這個疏失的部分進行調查"},{"start":12569.206,"end":12598.185,"text":"好那由於這個本案齁這個機敏的資料外泄知識體大那除了檢檢討相關的這個疏失這個也要嚴嚴格的這個懲處啦齁那除了內部行政的調查要完整我想在法律上也需要採取必要的作為啦齁那就目前本案能夠透露的部分這個該案的承辦人員是否已經被這個移送法辦啦齁那並且承辦人員可能會面臨什麼樣的行政"},{"start":12599.286,"end":12610.574,"text":"是跟委員報告就是說這個案件他我們在去了解的時候那事實上就是說因為我們的這個針鋒的同仁他們在"},{"start":12611.429,"end":12632.026,"text":"就是因為我們財產申報基本上是本機關只能知道本機關的一個相關的一個資料那這一件是因為今年度國防部他剛把就是說原本是屬於機敏單位的一個政風資料的這個業務由督察室移來政風室這邊來處理所以說我們的政風室同事在新接這個業務的時候跟"},{"start":12633.747,"end":12634.047,"text":" （二（二（"},{"start":12659.156,"end":12675.882,"text":"請我們就是強加調查應該要有一個一個比較明確的結果那這次的事件是這個政風單位在進行財產申報時所發生的那這邊想在追問這個規範上我們目前所定有的這個政風機構維護公務機密作業要點"},{"start":12679.998,"end":12700.178,"text":"但仍然發生這麼重大的疏失恐怕是對於這個機密文件在處理的這個流程所參照的原則未能完全落實所導致的那在國安部所發生這個問題在其他政風單位同樣也可能會發生類似的這個情形那我想請教次長"},{"start":12701.579,"end":12722.561,"text":"您認為應該要如何來精進規範以避免這個政風機密這個洩漏的情形再發生?這當然涉及到若個案發生的話我們首先就要把這個個案查清楚如果事實是怎麼樣如果是有我們的政風人員有為事的話當然我們要透過究責的方式來避免未來再發生這是第一點"},{"start":12723.382,"end":12723.522,"text":"閱议委員"},{"start":12748.556,"end":12770.217,"text":"那這一次的這個資安問題其實造成重大的這個國安危機的情況那是絕對不能再縱容那廉政署作為這個政風單位的指導機關務必確保類似的這個情勢不再發生不論是對於作業要點在進行檢討或是加強對同仁的這個宣導及教育的訓練讓各這個政風單位"},{"start":12773.18,"end":12800.018,"text":"甚至是所有接觸到機敏資料的單位都能夠引以為戒了那是不是也請我們這個法務部會同相關的資安單位對於這個政風業務持續的精進辦法這個部分有沒有辦法做一個比較這個簡單的說明跟委員報告我剛剛已經跟委員報告這部分法務部走旁帶我們要求所屬的廉政署一定要落實剛剛委員所講的這一個個案的檢討跟法令方面的修正謝謝好"},{"start":12800.839,"end":12814.348,"text":"好那市長跟署長您先請問我想請教我們那個警政署張署長主席再給我一點時間包括主席"},{"start":12816.848,"end":12832.892,"text":"主席我想請教主席另外就是在前幾天這個宜蘭縣議會的這個網站疑似遭到這個病毒這個駭客的侵入那導致民眾在google這個宜蘭縣議會的這個關鍵字的時候網站卻是導"},{"start":12837.353,"end":12851.621,"text":"導引到這個股市的這個教學連結很明顯這是投資的這個詐騙的網站那也讓鄉親痛批我們詐騙集團的這種做法太過於囂張了那據我了解議會在發現之後也立即報警"},{"start":12852.421,"end":12875.327,"text":"那並且由這個刑事單位協助來偵辦我想這個案子所涉及的公共利益應該也有適度的公開說明的必要我想請教我們署長對於這個依然縣議會網站被害的這一個案子目前我們偵辦的情形為何那對於犯罪來源來自境內或境外是否已經掌握初步的這個目標"},{"start":12878.598,"end":12898.629,"text":"好那宜蘭縣議會的這個網站被被駭客就是侵占這一些的這個一夜市的一個詐欺的廣告那第一時間宜蘭縣就有跟我們宜蘭縣警察局來報案我們有立即馬上就去做處理"},{"start":12899.769,"end":12919.547,"text":"現在初步了解現在這個的網站是由駭客從境外駭客的一個狀況是境外的一個駭客那跟原先的google的這個原先的這個是沒有關係是駭客的一個狀況那我們目前這個案件應該整理相關的這個見證在追這一些這個"},{"start":12923.991,"end":12949.604,"text":"主要證實了這個身份由刑事局跟宜蘭縣警察局現在在報地點組指揮在戰犯當中好持續追蹤了是好那這個詐騙網站是在被民眾發現之後然後似乎在網路上存續一段時間那這部分我想了解的是在實務上我們政府的網站被冒用在即時因應上的這個作為"},{"start":12951.394,"end":12977.364,"text":"我們在和這個網路業者之間的這個通報上大概要需要多少的時間才能夠請他來下架這個詐騙的這個連結那我們現在對於這些的詐騙只要是是發現到是一個詐騙我們有這一些的管道有些是20小時以內就能夠下架了24小時對速度很快就會下架有沒有辦法更快"},{"start":12978.084,"end":13003.564,"text":"因為有一些網站你發現之後你通報之後他們那邊只要電腦系統去做操作對我們這個部會陸續在做跟因為這個主管機關是樹花部那有一些的這些平行的這個溝通我們會來跟這些部會來溝通對於這些網路的這些的一個平台的業者能夠加快下架這些炸機的一個廣告好"},{"start":13004.224,"end":13018.094,"text":"那因為這一次的案子是政府的這個機關網站被害然後那也擔心是否會造成在公務上的這個資料外洩的情形包括議會工作的人員的個資或許或是存儲存於這個議會"},{"start":13019.335,"end":13020.336,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具 «刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案»案。"},{"start":13044.752,"end":13070.356,"text":"過九年的議員這是第一次聽到議會的網站被害而政府機關的網站應該是提供便民的服務並且是值得民眾所信賴的要做到防範詐騙集團冒用政府機關相信也需要跨部會跨機關的合作我想再就教我們署長這部分是否有其他宣導規劃和精進措施的作為"},{"start":13070.836,"end":13089.212,"text":"好那這個部分就是說第一個就是自己的這個網站的治安的防禦的能力一定要在做做加強防禦這些駭客的入侵那第二部分就是說這一些如果有第一時間發現到這個有有駭入的這個狀況應該是這個公務的單位應該隨時每日有人要去做監看"},{"start":13095.717,"end":13114.968,"text":"禁看這些的相關的這個訊息如果發生這個訊息我就馬上提示來做處置那第三個部分就是說我們對於這個廣告的這些的這些業者一定也要有這些的約束他們要自有管自己要做管理這個屬於是一個"},{"start":13115.708,"end":13130.811,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":13131.892,"end":13159.351,"text":"我還是請我們署長後續的溝通平台架構好之後對於相關部會內之間的協調希望能夠有一個比較完善的處理方式也避免我們民眾對於政府機關的網站的信賴會打折如果我們能夠把被害的情形做一個比較完善的處理相信未來這種事情應該會比較少再發生了"},{"start":13160.071,"end":13165.293,"text":"議員提供的相關資料會以書面答覆,請相關機關及諸宋交各別委員及本會。討論事項所列議案報告及詢答完畢。"},{"start":13188.117,"end":13197.761,"text":"那我們就本議案我們另定期繼續審查那本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"156150","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156150","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bda3cfa596475289dbee181499f78d5305966be1ac5b6e0f909889872e64f964c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:41:32 - 12:47:42","影片長度":"00:06:10","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:41:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:47:42+08:00","duration":370,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.73909375,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.25346875,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.801593750000002,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.10096875,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.822218750000001,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.56409375,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.54221875,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.460968750000003,"end":33.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.28721875,"end":36.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.34159375,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.02034375,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.26409375,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.83221875,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.31971875,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.92659375000001,"end":83.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.03471875000001,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.43846875000001,"end":100.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.19659375,"end":101.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.00659375000001,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.55034375000001,"end":120.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.61534375000001,"end":122.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.52221875000001,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.76159375,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.47596875000002,"end":158.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.06096875,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.30909375000002,"end":177.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.80909375000002,"end":191.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.96721875,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.01159375,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.37721875000003,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.18284375000002,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.22034375,"end":220.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.09346875000003,"end":222.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.21971875000003,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.36721875,"end":226.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.50596875000002,"end":229.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.75034375,"end":256.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.27346875,"end":271.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.70159375000003,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.09346875,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.88096875,"end":370.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.66971875,"end":367.87221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.206,"end":5.449,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":7.324,"end":36.172,"text":"在這裡跟所有與會的行政長官以及學者專家來賓說聲大家午安我是山地原住民所選出來的山地原住民立委代表今天參與國土計畫法的修正草案我有一些話想要跟大家說這部法對原住民來講絕對是百年大忌因為我們等了一百多年"},{"start":37.406,"end":55.763,"text":"日本人來的時候呢把原住民的土地也就是祖居地以山林國有這樣的名義全數的來接管緊緊分配給原住民這些所需要的家屋農耕用地被稱之為藩人所要地"},{"start":57.029,"end":83.084,"text":"國民政府來了之後呢在1974年以前其實對於這些非都市計畫地區的土地是沒有什麼法規來約束限制的但是一旦到了1974年的區域計畫法沒有完成落實調查土地的使用現況使得像賴清德總統他們礦區那些主居地"},{"start":84.425,"end":100.06,"text":"還有位在原保地的這一些建物一夕之間全部變成違法所以今天談國土計畫法原住民等很久了這是盼望我們的土地合法的一個一線希望"},{"start":102.161,"end":120.707,"text":"政府有承諾千萬不要跳票105年5月1日前的建物所在的原住民土地要合法化我再說一次政府承諾105年5月1日前的建物所在的原住民土地要合法化"},{"start":121.69,"end":144.098,"text":"我們引頸期盼我還記得我在109年進入立法院就參與了這個延長的修法當時我也有做出附帶決議我要求原民會以及我們的內政部要編列經費到全國各部落要去做土地調查跟說明溝通謝謝編了1億033萬元"},{"start":149.82,"end":177.08,"text":"結果我們調查出來目前有14萬棟的建築物是蓋在非建地上面所以如果已經蓋在合法土地上的叫第一類那麼還有105年以前既有的這些建物呢如果是在非建地上我們就是等待用國土功能分區把它土地合法化"},{"start":178.762,"end":204.022,"text":"105年以後才蓋的在多次的溝通討論中現在有原住民族土地使用管制規則以及一生一次這樣的規定可以讓它建物合法化再來就是未來要蓋的那一些還沒有成型的建地我們也可以透過鄉村規劃這樣的工具來完成但是我對政府有信心"},{"start":205.069,"end":226.608,"text":"我唯一擔心的也覺得成效會不彰的就是5月1號要面臨的問題地用合法了接下來我們的建物合法我們要水保合法我們還要消防合法可是我們幫族人去算了一下"},{"start":227.869,"end":256.212,"text":"為了建物的合法環境敏感地區地質敏感地區簡易的水保或者是水保計畫像原住民有很多因為過去非法沒有辦法土地貸款抵押所以我們的建物都很簡便它還需要結構安全鑑定未來明年有水污法污水的處理它是違建面對的罰款它要取得建造死照等等等"},{"start":257.893,"end":265.198,"text":"這樣一個簡簡單單的建物為了要合法化結果普照的費用要總計130萬我們想要問一句值得嗎?值得嗎?所以"},{"start":272.563,"end":287.268,"text":"我們認為我們更需要的是政府要怎麼樣來協助不要為德不足讓政府的美意還給原住民的土地正義能夠有效的落實所以我們在這邊主張提供105年5月以前的既有建築105年5月以後的建築未來預備新建的這些樹地去研議用地合法化的策略"},{"start":302.213,"end":321.101,"text":"另外我們也希望國土的永續基金要訂定計畫要編列經費更重要的是原住民族土地使用管制規則要趕快的公佈因為本來應該在今年1月要公佈希望內政部可以尊重"},{"start":321.661,"end":341.92,"text":"原民會以及學者專家提供的一個原住民族土地最希望的使用規則我也在別的委員會例如在農業部他們也部長表示會全力支持未來我們的交通部像是這些小型露營場的合法化面對的問題他們其他部位"},{"start":344.722,"end":344.902,"text":"好 謝謝伍麗華委員"}]}},{"id":"156149","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156149","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b2c36a32f325089c6bee181499f78d5305966be1ac5b6e0f9d02345ff075ccb485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:35:01 - 12:41:25","影片長度":"00:06:24","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:35:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:41:25+08:00","duration":384,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.94034375,"end":186.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.86659375000002,"end":210.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.37346875,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.73909375000002,"end":273.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.26659375,"end":367.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.87221875,"end":379.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.69284375,"end":384.56159375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.584,"end":41.317,"text":"謝謝昭偉還有今天舉辦公聽會還能夠讓許多的專家學者包括立法委員以及許多的人士都能夠來表達反應對於國土計畫法還有的許多的一些地方的意見跟專業的見解那我剛開完刀那想說這一案國土計畫法對於南投其實也是影響非常的重要所以說不管怎麼樣那今天想說就一定要發言還是謝謝昭偉的安排"},{"start":42.037,"end":42.697,"text":"民意代表是反對國土計畫法"},{"start":66.211,"end":82.262,"text":"反對國土計畫法的立法精神或目的今天一切大家所提到的就是在爭議如何能夠被討論以及爭議如何能夠被解決所以今天開公聽會的目的"},{"start":83.263,"end":84.625,"text":"國土計畫法的推展到現在是不是能夠暫緩?暫緩兩年也好,其實都不是說讓國土計畫法不要去實行"},{"start":99.406,"end":120.06,"text":"而是希望在實行的過程中能夠減少許多的爭議爭端因為在第一線的民眾在尤其是剛才不管是王玉敏委員甚至我是代表南投縣在這個南投的許多的農民或是在縣府以及我們許多的鄉親在溝通的時候其實民眾的對於國土計畫法很多的一個狀況的細節的一個無法了解"},{"start":124.483,"end":153.339,"text":"那所以導致這個國土計畫法目前在推動以及包括功能圖有9個縣市他沒有辦法來去第一時間做繳交因為繳交了之後他所影響的其實是更多的爭議要用更多的一個能量去解決那一些細項的部分等一下也會提到他也會用一個書面的方式所以還是希望因為農業縣市啊依賴的生活不能一夕之間被打亂那所以說這個功能圖是很重要那所以說在南投縣未來"},{"start":154.419,"end":183.034,"text":"將近是不到3%的空間去做所謂的都市發展那50萬的男同仁請而以堪那如果說在推動政策之前能夠有更積極的溝通那重點是真正的能夠傾聽民意所以暫緩實施的部分他不是不讓國土法去推動而是在這個實施暫緩的過程中能夠真正的因地制宜那這個不是歷史公約這個是藍綠的共識但是以大家的共同作業"},{"start":183.914,"end":209.355,"text":"那本期在這裡還是要特別去提到一下攸關臺灣重大的國土計畫法那在總質詢的時候本期也提到相關的執法的進度那國土管理署那時候有提到目前總共23項在113年7月31日已經完成國土計畫法施行細則等14項執法但是包括在2024年11月年底能夠完成發布完成的比例大概是60.87%"},{"start":211.457,"end":225.03,"text":"那如果說以該屬113年10月25日召開的目的事業法律因應國土計畫法實施的修正方向及辦理期程延長會議的記錄總共相關的盤點的目的事業法律共52部計94個條文涉及到內政"},{"start":226.471,"end":253.348,"text":"縣部、農業部、經濟部等13個部會來瞎管那優先修正法律可是目前這些法律在實施的過程中他們在地方縣市政府也是要等著相關的執法出來了之後那才能夠去相關完成這個配套以及包括在公認圖的調查所以如果說在完成比例是在60.87%那如何要讓地方的縣市政府還能夠來進行一個完整的配合"},{"start":253.928,"end":273.405,"text":"我相信這是一個很大的問題所在所以那時候總執行的時候 劉志旺部長說暫緩兩年爭議還在可是如果說這個爭議能夠在這兩年來講把它降到最低我相信這才是我們大家主要的一個目的舉例來講南樓縣政府在辦理國土計畫作業需要協助的事項像地震處就提到了"},{"start":274.315,"end":298.623,"text":"本縣的39萬公頃站在95%農山的原則傾向10782的一個涉及所有相關土地所有權人那時候南東縣政府有提到國保的範圍是不是有些是應該是在農用的部分應該化為農山那無危害水土保持的林業用地也要成為能夠設定為農山那目前的話也都還沒有一個"},{"start":299.603,"end":317.079,"text":"明確的一個進度包括在調這個圖資資料的時候那些政府如果說直接向其他的單位來調這相關的資料在請求行政協助的事項上並沒有強制力所以說他的這個願的應該要提升到功能圖應該提升到願的層級會比較適合那"},{"start":318.94,"end":345.696,"text":"因為時間有限所以包括後面的話我們有提到不管是在觀光的部分那這個相關的倉促實施會影響到整個南投縣農業發展能夠去做實用實到的相關申請的部分其實通通都還是目前所南投縣遇到的問題甚至在原住民剛才那個老師有提到的微型聚落的部分以三棟為原則應該適時的應該向本縣目前的生活習慣幾乎是為兩棟"},{"start":347.617,"end":347.737,"text":"公職委員會"},{"start":368.052,"end":368.232,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"156148","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156148","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b0593dab6aacea616bee181499f78d5305966be1ac5b6e0f992aeab3b46f231cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"12:27:49 - 12:34:55","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會「國土計畫法修正草案」公聽會【本案歡迎各直轄市及縣(市)政府提供書面意見】113年10月24日（星期四）上午9時至中午12時(視必要時得延長)開會地點：紅樓202會議","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:27:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:34:55+08:00","duration":426,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.26284375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.94284375,"end":40.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.37471875,"end":48.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.73221875,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.65159375,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.39784375,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.15846875000001,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.93034375,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.45284375,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.43034375,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.39096875000001,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.57971875000001,"end":112.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.72221875000001,"end":115.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.13096875000001,"end":119.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.07971875000001,"end":127.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.97721875000002,"end":135.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.70596875,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.20346875,"end":144.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.27846875,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.25721875000002,"end":147.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.53534375,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.96971875,"end":150.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.97784375,"end":155.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.24284375000002,"end":157.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.64346875,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.27659375000002,"end":185.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.01034375,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.42784375000002,"end":188.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.14909375000002,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.34721875000002,"end":196.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.23221875000002,"end":198.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.20659375000002,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.74159375000002,"end":212.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.97659375,"end":231.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.16346875000002,"end":241.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.95096875000002,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.58784375000002,"end":248.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.79784375000003,"end":253.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.11784375000002,"end":257.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.11721875,"end":262.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.92659375,"end":266.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.97659375,"end":273.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.99659375000005,"end":275.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.29159375,"end":284.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.47159375,"end":287.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.05346875000004,"end":289.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.50471875,"end":302.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.34221875000003,"end":304.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.68784375,"end":308.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.14721875000004,"end":314.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.54721875,"end":316.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.75784375,"end":319.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.98096875000005,"end":351.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.63846875,"end":354.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.67159375,"end":392.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.99909375000004,"end":401.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.01034375,"end":416.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.57346875,"end":418.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.81346875,"end":424.23471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.591,"end":4.553,"text":"謝謝主席在場的專家學者還有代表還有我們行政部門的同仁我想有關於國土計畫法現在要上路然後引發的爭議的確是不少那我想全國民眾大家都不會反對國土計畫法的精神就是說基於環境的永續"},{"start":23.882,"end":24.282,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":48.789,"end":76.643,"text":"我深入走到嘉義縣阿里山就是進到山區之後我開始發現說我們有一些的法它其實是利益良善但是要落實的時候如果那個過程你跟地方的溝通是不足的你沒有在乎人民的感受跟聲音或者是去理解他真正在乎的是什麼那這個法可能到一半的時候就會像這次的國土計畫法就是即將要上路了"},{"start":77.043,"end":105.694,"text":"但是反彈的聲音很大這一次你可以看到在國會裡面就是藍綠的委員大家都有這樣的一個疑慮而且提出來所以今天才會有這樣的一個公聽會而且會有暫緩的聲音那我覺得解決問題就是面對人民的意見跟聲音我們就很務實的攤開來討論這個才會有解方要不然最後就會變成是一個抗爭抗爭就是消耗我覺得那個不是處理問題的方法"},{"start":106.621,"end":109.263,"text":"國土計畫法推動的過程當中當地人的感受非常的重要你必須聽見聽進去而且想辦法看他們這些意見跟聲音我們到底要怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":136.083,"end":150.13,"text":"今天我也特別謝謝阿里山嘉義縣這邊我們黃理事長他剛剛的發言我也聽到他是很真誠的從他們在這片土地生活這麼久今天這個法就會影響到他"},{"start":151.03,"end":151.17,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":172.495,"end":195.867,"text":"就是沒有我也問過劉世芳部長你有親自到第一線聽過嘉義縣阿里山這些山區的鄉民的意見嗎他們在乎的是什麼我跟各位報告我去那邊兩次晚上的時間聽鄉民怎麼說他們只是焦慮我可不可以在這片土地繼續生活我可不可以繼續我種茶葉的可不可以繼續種"},{"start":197.268,"end":212.606,"text":"我種咖啡可不可以繼續種如果我的下一代他要繼續我們說希望青年返鄉他的心願很單純我兒子現在大二他回來就是繼續接我家裡的工作他未來還有沒有前景"},{"start":213.406,"end":230.935,"text":"委員會否限制它未來的發展它沒有辦法在這個產業發展我覺得這個就是非常真實的問題我聽到了這些聲音那我覺得這些聲音官員也應該聽見內政部的官員都說地方政府有開公聽會像嘉義縣送的分區圖它只開了七場"},{"start":232.176,"end":232.796,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案公聽會議"},{"start":249.824,"end":275.258,"text":"你們有親自召來座談會嗎 劉思芳部長跟我說他沒有啊我說你有聽過阿里山鄉親他們真正意見是什麼他說沒有我說可不可以我們一起再去聽一遍他說好但現在都還沒有安排我要講的是涉及到人民土地的這件事情你的執行過程要夠細膩而且溝通是要雙向的而不是我下令要你做什麼而且鄉親他反映一個"},{"start":277.752,"end":304.786,"text":"剛剛早上也有一個學者提出來現在各個縣市政府他的套土啊他所引用的這些資料年代比例圖他們的這些精緻程度不一樣也有誤差率請問當你要剝奪一個鄉親的土地判他是國宜是不是國宜的時候你是用套土的還是實地去看的去丈量的當鄉親有意見的時候你有沒有很細膩的去處理他的問題沒有啊"},{"start":305.746,"end":316.313,"text":"嘉義縣這些鄉親告訴我就是說你塗一套然後就告訴我但是你從來他從來沒有看到有人實際到現場來丈量來判斷這樣的土地"},{"start":316.874,"end":345.602,"text":"到底是不是適合劃入國一他是用套土的所以我覺得這個是發生在我們為什麼政策不能上路你執行的過程第一個缺乏雙向溝通第二個是你沒有一個很細膩的執行第三個人民的聲音好像聽不見這個就會導致你這個法落實的困難所以這件事情我是勸這個內政部溝通再溝通這個以前蔡英文總統雖然已經卸任了但是呢"},{"start":346.704,"end":353.837,"text":"前輩再前輩溝通再溝通這件事情的解方只有溝通對話然後納入一些"},{"start":355.914,"end":376.839,"text":"軍民在地的聲音而且我建議就是要因地制宜以這個嘉義縣阿里山這樣的地方來講你又要它發展觀光你又要發展產業又一天到晚說阿里山的茶葉很有名叫大家促進觀光你這個觀光署你希望一年是一千萬的觀光客但是這個地方它的特殊性你有沒有通盤的考量"},{"start":377.639,"end":378.099,"text":"副副副副副副"},{"start":402.114,"end":403.075,"text":"王育敏委員接下來游浩委員"}]}},{"id":"156154","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156154","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b71a400641f444b85e0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f92beb4618946eee9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:26:14 - 12:32:47","影片長度":"00:06:33","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:26:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:32:47+08:00","duration":393,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.64159375,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.62034375,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.36659375,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.20596875,"end":14.442218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.442218750000002,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.96409375,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.773468750000003,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.83971875,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.58471875,"end":49.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.28909375,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.31846875,"end":50.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.314093750000005,"end":51.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.03471875,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.09784375,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.35096875000001,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.73284375,"end":77.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.32346875,"end":73.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.52096875000001,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.55471875,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.72346875000001,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.88346875,"end":82.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.41471875,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.22034375000001,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.49034375000001,"end":84.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.94096875000001,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.41721875,"end":95.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.79659375,"end":98.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.66534375,"end":99.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.20096875,"end":102.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.30596875,"end":104.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.62221875,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.46534375,"end":110.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.95034375,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.05159375000001,"end":111.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.27096875000001,"end":111.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.28784375000001,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.42284375000001,"end":112.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.57034375,"end":116.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.38034375000001,"end":114.37596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.67096875000001,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.41721875,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.12409375000001,"end":133.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.14096875,"end":133.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.88346875000002,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.16159375,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.94159375,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.47284375,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.04221875000002,"end":144.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.42596875,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.67034375,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.17159375,"end":153.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.37409375000001,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.00971875000002,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.84034375000002,"end":175.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.75034375,"end":179.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.88034375,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.91784375,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.90034375000002,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.76471875000001,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":213.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.11409375000002,"end":197.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.71909375,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.10096875000002,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.68659375000001,"end":246.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.58721875,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.46034375000002,"end":257.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.28596875,"end":258.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.84284375000004,"end":273.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.28346875,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.88596875,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.03346875,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.68721875,"end":296.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.67659375,"end":313.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.82159375000003,"end":317.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.75346875,"end":317.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.78721875,"end":317.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.82096875,"end":334.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.72971875,"end":335.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.18534375,"end":335.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.43846875,"end":339.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.77096875,"end":341.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.96909375,"end":346.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.47471875,"end":352.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.75221875,"end":354.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.42284375,"end":356.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.90346875,"end":358.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.86096875000004,"end":365.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.13846875,"end":366.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.28596875000005,"end":370.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.23034375000003,"end":371.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.41159375,"end":376.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.33909375,"end":380.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.61284375,"end":388.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.61159375,"end":389.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.11784375,"end":390.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.41721875,"end":391.26096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.23,"end":4.8,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列車、政府局長、首長、管理員、會長、工作夥伴那有請剛才那三位陳部長、陳局長、陳次長好,三位"},{"start":12.401,"end":34.795,"text":"部長、次長、局長今天又見面了,再次見面第二次好,今天呢,大概問題就是補足客運價值來維持公共運輸那克服法定障礙引入了PT能力是我的重點其實呢,前面大概部長都回答光了我後面可以更快的推進,來往下看1號客運的運量不如以往,剛剛部長也說了請問部長,運量沒有上升是乘客不想搭車還是客運車沒有人開"},{"start":36.457,"end":45.603,"text":"綜合因素啦綜合因素缺價值也是因素嘛好往下看那麼目前統計你們的報告說客運價值缺額超過2000人那缺額沒有補足會造成什麼樣的惡果"},{"start":47.862,"end":70.363,"text":"缺額如果沒有補足它的路線就少嘛它的班次就少那當然班次一少民眾願意搭乘的意願當然也就降低那它整體的營收也跟著會降低是然後所以說我剛剛在聽你講話我都把你的數計筆記都記好了班次不足人數不夠班次減少民眾選擇四人運劇載客量下降客運業就虧損對不對那這二運行循環怎麼解決"},{"start":72.393,"end":90.31,"text":"你們有做嘛你們是說第一你們把駕駛人的年齡從65歲提到68歲對不對已經在開車了讓他開更久一點另外一個呢開始培養那個培育就業補助等等是不是這樣是好那延長開車年齡這個我是認同啦因為目前國人的健康情況都很好其實呢這個68歲他其實開車很穩我OK的"},{"start":93.553,"end":119.474,"text":"但是這些培育出來的人到底有沒有去上班啊還是他上了沒幾天就跑掉了新培育的人原來在開的人你讓他開久一點可以延長一年對不對那些要引進來開車的人有留得住嗎往下看有沒有留住我們希望能夠留得住啦表示很難留得住嘛那剛剛就整理了幾位的嘛工時長、無貪性、心情差、壓力大是不是這樣子"},{"start":120.755,"end":139.217,"text":"這是目前我們客運車駕駛遇到問題部長也認同嘛那這問題怎麼辦呢往下看其實你認為客運業啊它需要哪種能力是尖峰的運量都需要能力多還是離峰的時候當然是尖峰當然是尖峰好現在問題來了過去我們傳統的客運駕駛呢它的車輛是固定的"},{"start":140.578,"end":162.091,"text":"離峰的時候少開班次 尖峰的時候全軍出動這時候你覺得他要拚多少駕駛 他是不是要hold跟車輛一樣多的駕駛甚至要更多一點 因為要輪班休息嘛 是不是這樣所以客運的駕駛他們維持的司機人數 全職的司機人數其實有一半的時間是沒有在上班的 但他綁住"},{"start":163.112,"end":190.371,"text":"所以其實有人就提出那可不可以用PT part-time的人力我在尖峰的時候把這些來兼差的一天只上工三小時的我請他就那尖峰的三小時來投入車子閒置我沒問題因為車子要保養人我不能閒置需要的時候再上工可以嗎可以使用PT的人力嗎有沒有法規上的限制目前法規上好像還沒有允許可以用part-time的他具備資格他一天上班四個小時不可以嗎"},{"start":192.146,"end":210.734,"text":"這個其實是屬於就是說勞用條件而且是業者跟駕駛之間的這個契約的約定是的來為什麼要請次長來次長就來了其實今天柯業者想要採行的不同於傳統的全職僱用制他就是說他需要一些part-time的人力來應付尖峰時段的駕駛的人數需求"},{"start":212.054,"end":231.89,"text":"你們有限制嗎?法定人數有限制嗎?報告委員就勞動部業管的部分勞工到底是從事全時工作還是部分工時然後用他的採薪的月薪、時薪、日薪這些都沒有限制只要他符合勞動法令的規範所以現在業者沒有採用的原因他們對於法令不了解有這些彈性"},{"start":232.971,"end":257.412,"text":"業者不瞭解、受雇者也不瞭解受雇者覺得我吃一個頭露來部長現在請你來齁其實我發現呢從今天談的烏貝伊迪達、福潘達啦還是這些多元計程車我發現年輕的工作者他們傾向的是什麼一天兼三份差他不要綁在一個工作上8個小時、12個小時他希望呢欸我有彈性今天上兩份工明天上一份工你覺得是不是年輕人現在比較希望這樣"},{"start":259.045,"end":280.368,"text":"還有另外一種已經是退休的人他其實呢他的經濟條件不錯可是他覺得閒在家裡沒事幹那我年紀大了我也不可能做8個小時我來做4個小時3個小時你覺得有沒有可能這樣的那個中高齡就業的部分有沒有市長有沒有中高齡就我們不鼓勵退休的人他回來再做個兩三個小時支不支持"},{"start":281.127,"end":304.426,"text":"我們基本上都不反對所以問題來了部長往下看所以今天我們要解決要提升客運的運量要先解決司機慌那我覺得目前我們客運業者他們可能對法令的彈性不夠了解或者交通部要協助他們因為現在想要當駕駛的他不想要一天8個小時12個小時綁在公司"},{"start":305.166,"end":334.02,"text":"同樣的有些退休的人他還能力可以開車但他沒有辦法坐足8個小時你覺得未來我們的長途客運駕駛接不接受這樣的人力報告委員我們現在在法令上面並沒有規範說不行對但是你們沒有積極的去幫他們開發你們與其辦培訓課不如協助各客運業者怎麼樣去找出一種僱用模式所以我請交通部跟勞動部針對徵聘PT人力就業者的成本跟勞工的權益進行研議上個月內提出書面報告可以嗎"},{"start":335.608,"end":339.365,"text":"那另外一個呢 給我們一個對象 什麼人很想要一個part-time的工作"},{"start":340.834,"end":370.514,"text":"假類農民怎麼講他已經是領中生後的退出役官兵了他可能還40幾歲50歲啊身體還很好啊可是你叫他怎麼樣去看公寓大樓嗎你叫他去賣當三寶嗎賣零骨塔嗎他覺得我每天跟人接觸我還可以覺得退休很有意義像這樣的退出役官兵我跟退服會問過他們很樂意輔導他們來轉職做長途客運業交通部要不要跟退服會研究一下擴大招募PD人力找退服會一起合作"},{"start":371.294,"end":390.807,"text":"可以嗎有 我們每次招募的時候都有找退服會是找他們 要找那個領終身奉的喔你找那個30歲的 他一個全職工作 他可能不會來啊但你找那個四、五十歲的 他有終身奉的 一個月已經領三、四萬的他來兼個餐 多領個兩萬 他願意 一天只要多上班兩個小時 可以嗎可以好 那麼就拜託你們 謝謝 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時26分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴。有請剛剛那三位陳部長、陳局長、陳次長。"],["主席：好，請三位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長、次長、局長，今天又再次見面了。今天問題大概都是補足客運駕駛來維持公共運輸，克服法定障礙，引入PT人力作為重點，其實部長在前面大概都回答光了，我們後面可以更快的推進。往下看，疫後客運的運量不如以往，剛剛部長也說了，請問部長，運量沒有上升，是乘客不想搭車，還是客運沒有人開？"],["陳部長世凱：綜合因素。"],["鍾委員佳濱：綜合因素，缺駕駛也是因素嘛，好，往下看，你們的報告說，目前統計客運駕駛缺額超過2,000人，缺額沒有補足會造成什麼樣的惡果？"],["陳部長世凱：缺額如果沒有補足，它的路線、班次就少，班次一少，當然民眾願意搭乘的意願也就降低，整體營收也跟著降低。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以我剛剛在聽你講話，我都把你的筆記速記好了，人數不夠、班次減少、民眾選搭私人運具、載客量下降，客運業就虧損，對不對？這惡性循環怎麼解決？你們有做嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們說，第一個，把駕駛的年齡從65歲提高到68歲，對不對？已經在開車的，讓他開更久一點；另外一個，開始培育就業補助等等，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，延長開車年齡，這個我是認同啦，因為目前國人的健康情況都很好，其實68歲開車很穩是OK的，但是這些培育出來的人到底有沒有去上班啊？還是他上沒幾天就跑掉了？關於新培育的人，原來在開的人可以讓他開久一點、可以延長役齡對不對？那些要引進來開車的人留得住嗎？有沒有留住？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望能夠留得住……"],["鍾委員佳濱：表示很難留得住嘛，剛剛就整理了幾位的資料，工時長、無彈性、薪情差、壓力大，是不是這樣子？這是目前客運車駕駛遇到的問題，部長也認同嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那這個問題怎麼辦呢？我們往下看，你認為客運業需要哪種人力？是尖峰運量時需要的人力多，還是離峰的時候？"],["陳部長世凱：當然是尖峰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，現在問題來了，過去傳統客運駕駛的車輛是固定的，離峰的時候少開班次，尖峰的時候全軍出動，這時候你覺得他們要聘多少駕駛？他們是不是要hold跟車輛一樣多的駕駛，甚至還要更多一點，因為還要輪班休息，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以客運駕駛維持的全職司機人數，其實有一半的時間是沒有在上班的，但是他被綁住。所以有人就提出，可不可以用PT（part time）的人力？在尖峰的時候，把這些來兼差的、一天只上工3小時的，請他在尖峰的3小時來投入，車子閒置沒問題，因為車要保養，人不能閒置，需要的人都在上工，可以嗎？可以使用PT的人力嗎？有沒有法規上的限制？"],["陳部長世凱：目前法規上好像還沒有允許。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他具備資格，一天上班4小時不可以嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：這個其實屬於勞動條件……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["陳局長文瑞：而且是業者跟駕駛之間勞動契約的約定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。請次長來，次長，其實今天客運業者想要採行不同於傳統的全職僱用制，他們需要一些part time的人力來應付尖峰時段的駕駛人數需求，你們有限制嗎？法律上有限制嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：報告委員，就勞動部的業管，勞工從事全時工作還是部分工時，採計的月薪、時薪、日薪這些都沒有限制，只要他符合勞動法令的規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以現在業者沒有採用的原因是他們不瞭解法令有這些彈性，業者不了解、受僱者也不了解，受僱者覺得我是一個投入……來，部長，現在請你來，其實Uber Eats、foodpanda，還是多元計程車，我發現年輕工作者傾向的是什麼？一天兼3份差，他不要綁在一個工作上8個小時、12個小時，他希望有彈性，今天上兩份工、明天上一份工，你覺得年輕人現在是不是比較希望這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有另外一種已經退休的人，其實他的經濟條件不錯，可是他又閒在家裡沒事幹，年紀大了也不可能做8個小時，來做4個小時、3個小時，你覺得中高齡就業有沒有可能這樣？次長，有沒有？對於中高齡就業，我們鼓不鼓勵退休的人回來再做個兩、三個小時？支不支持？"],["陳次長明仁：我們基本上都不反對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以問題來了，部長往下看，今天要解決並提升客運的運量要先解決司機荒，我覺得目前客運業者可能對法令的彈性不夠了解，交通部要協助他們，因為現在想要當駕駛的人不想要一天8個小時、12個小時綁在公司，同樣的，有些退休的人還有能力可以開車，但他沒有辦法做足8個小時，你覺得未來長途客運駕駛接不接受這樣的人力？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們現在在法令上面並沒有規範這個不行，所以是可以的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是你們沒有積極的去幫他們開發，你們與其辦培訓課，不如協助各客運業者找出一種僱用模式，所以我請交通部跟勞動部針對徵聘PT人力，就業者的成本跟勞工權益進行研議，3個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，提供你一個對象，什麼人很想要part time的工作？甲類榮民，怎麼講？他已經是領終身俸的退除役官兵了，他可能才四十幾歲、50歲，身體還很好，可是你叫他去看公寓大樓嗎？你叫他去當三寶嗎？賣靈骨塔嗎？他覺得每天跟人接觸，他還可以覺得退休很有意義，像這樣的退除役官兵，我問過退輔會，他們很樂意輔導他們轉職做長途客運業，交通部要不要跟退輔會研究一下，擴大招募PT人力，找退輔會一起合作，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有，我們每次招募的時候都會找退輔會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要找領終身俸的喔，你如果找30歲的，他有一個全職工作，他可能不會來，如果你是找四、五十歲有終身俸的，一個月已經領三、四萬的，他來兼個差，多領個2萬元，他願意，一天只要多上班2個小時，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼就拜託你了，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156153","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156153","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b3c0397ce5312a33be0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f9462de921938ebd285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:19:58 - 12:25:49","影片長度":"00:05:51","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:19:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:25:49+08:00","duration":351,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":1.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.91659375,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.535343750000003,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.395968750000002,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.859718750000003,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.54721875,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.032218750000006,"end":47.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.259718750000005,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.40034375,"end":66.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.97346875000001,"end":127.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.77471875,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.21346875,"end":142.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.92846875,"end":152.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.97909375,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.59784375,"end":152.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.78346875,"end":153.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.01471875000001,"end":159.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.50346875,"end":164.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.19909375,"end":174.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.00409375,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.76346875000002,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.91909375,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.95284375,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.17221875,"end":203.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.18909375,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.54346875000002,"end":224.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.73846875,"end":226.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.54409375,"end":227.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.64096875,"end":233.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.74971875000003,"end":274.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.43096875000003,"end":288.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.81471875,"end":277.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.09971875,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.17034375000003,"end":327.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.27409375,"end":307.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.25409375000004,"end":348.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.19596875,"end":349.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.42784375,"end":350.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.33909375,"end":350.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.40659375,"end":350.81159375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.169,"end":4.831,"text":"今天一樣要討論這個客運的問題啦其實上一次部長在做業報的時候我就已經把話講得非常清楚了現在客運業者的問題"},{"start":15.916,"end":42.632,"text":"第一個這個乘客量在疫情過後開始逐漸攀升但是基本上疫情這一波把大部分客運業者都打趴了另外就是說駕駛人數其實從總體來看是一個下降趨勢那不只是人數變少而已還有高齡化的問題那你知道高齡駕駛總是相對危險所以客運業業者跟客運業的人力的新陳代謝它其實是非常重要的事情所以說客運缺工駕駛高齡化其實是交通部要面對的很重要的問題部長同意嗎"},{"start":43.072,"end":70.843,"text":"同意好現在喔這個人才大量流失了為什麼請部長回答一方面勞動條件一方面薪資的問題那再來就是說當時因為疫情所以很多的客運業者的狀況不太好很多的人才就直接流失了那也直接就轉到其他的行業去要回來不太容易再來還有一點就是大家對於客運的這個服務的品質要求其實蠻高的沒錯很多的客運的司機員大家都反映說壓力相當的大好"},{"start":71.623,"end":95.664,"text":"不錯部長這次回答我是非常滿意基本上完全命中第一個叫疫情重挫乘車需求嘛讓業者的營運狀況雪上加霜第二個基本上是因為勞基法修了一例一休之後當然要保障他們的工時這本席完全同意可是相對來講這造成了這個實務上的一些競合的狀況也就是說客運業者有些他可能真的是生活啊非常非常辛苦加了一份薪水他後來算了一下發現最近有新聞開始講啊我去開Uber去跑外送加起來搞不好"},{"start":96.604,"end":125.28,"text":"勞動時間一樣長他寧願讓自己過勞但是他可以賺的錢比較多他不受這樣子的一個規範所以他相對來講又吃掉了一部分司機的緣額第三個就是勞動的環境跟條件除了薪資不高之外常常被人家客訴每次要等這個待命的時候在破破爛爛的場站裡面連躺下來休息的地方都沒有這些勞動環境的不佳也是客運司機心灰意冷的原因部長問題意識非常清楚但是解決方案不清楚"},{"start":125.78,"end":153.426,"text":"問題意思清楚也沒有用嘛是不是部長是以這一段時間來講我們剛剛講因為疫情的關係我們必須要先幫客運業者打幾劑強心針讓他們至少願意留在市場上更有甚者你必須拿政府的補貼來增加駕駛的薪水方向都正確但這個額度能看嗎部長部長我們總共有幾家全國有幾家國道客運業者這個數字我不曉得齁但是欸這數字是你交通部的業報寫的捏那是不是今天的報告大家桌上都有請局長你要不要說明一下"},{"start":158.495,"end":181.167,"text":"加速的部分就是客運業者有300多家然後你運價這樣總共因為你講嘛差額由政府補貼一年額度是1.3億這個是一般的一般公路客運那還有國道客運的我知道但我的意思是說這個額度啊其實是不成比例的"},{"start":181.667,"end":208.283,"text":"今天的問題已經很嚴重嚴重到基本上業者都送進家務病房司機通通不願意來他如果是這麼嚴重的狀況你還在說吃感冒藥要上葉克膜的病人你給他吃感冒藥有用嗎其實是沒有用的我要提醒部長我希望部長上次我們討論的時候我說部長相對年輕應該要拿出魄力我們在整個政府在交通裡面的這個相關的預算隨便拿出來比一條你就發現那個落差其實非常巨大捷運工程很重要本席完全同意可是相對來講硬體跟軟體總要"},{"start":211.025,"end":223.801,"text":"總要平衡吧你看這個比例差額也是不能看每年我們要再下載當然補助各地方政府協助建設加起來幾千億那是跑不掉的但是相對來講你整個全國客運的補貼加加起來"},{"start":224.775,"end":250.175,"text":"不到捷運的一根毛啊這就是問題嘛新政府上任之後我們期待他是有新的思維五百億投資在科運業者可能很多狀況改變了你這真的大筆的預算政策方向的大的調整出來的時候我們才能夠大幅度的比如說改善運價的條件我幫科運業者專案加薪這是本期的第一個建議啦但我到現在沒等到從本期就任立法委員以來從看守內閣我就問這個事您上任的時候其實我也提過這個事"},{"start":250.936,"end":274.784,"text":"我不曉得這個是什麼時候才會落實但我真的很誠懇的希望交通部面對問題的核心其實就是交通部要不要做一個資源的結構性的調整讓公車這件事情變成交通部的重點業務目標有相應的資源跟人力下去的時候你才有辦法大幅度的改善事情要不然像上次運價調整那個調整搞了一年多溝通就調了一塊兩毛五"},{"start":275.484,"end":295.766,"text":"那個跟葉澤泰根本沒有解決問題啊因為那個大部分是由政府吸收所以民眾影響的比較對你為了擔心這個東西那你擔心的時候你政府的我剛剛為什麼講要有個幾百億的預算規模就是因為不要衝擊民眾搭車的情況因為你要養量嘛你不衝擊的情況下你政府當然要下大資源嘛那我講我說下個五百億在全國的公車系統不虧啊"},{"start":296.326,"end":320.605,"text":"因為客運跟公車的量養起來也是幫未來的捷運在養量啊也是在減少塞車跟停車的問題絕對划算所以預算的大幅投入我期待交通部可以作為第二個是有關勞動條件的部分我今天點一下後面我們有時間再做討論客運的場站公共汽車的停車場從來沒有在我們的都市計畫或者是區域計畫裡面被深刻的討論但它有沒有需要?它有需要"},{"start":320.885,"end":348.794,"text":"因為它是交通節點它也可以改善業者的投資環境也改善司機的勞動環境這件事情如果交通部能夠把它列為重點工作項目在幾個地方先行事辦把這個東西打開也許業者才會感受到我們的政府對這個政策的重視也只有從這種大的方向有魄力來著手才有辦法改善業者倒閉司機缺工的問題來改善公車的品質希望部長可以盡快的提出解決方案可以嗎是 好"},{"start":349.494,"end":350.539,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時20分）好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：是不是邀一樣的人？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我看就一樣好了，我們節省時間。今天一樣要討論客運的問題，其實上一次部長在做業報的時候，我就已經把話講得非常清楚了，現在客運業者的問題，第一個，乘客量在疫情過後開始逐漸攀升，但是基本上疫情這一波，把大部分的客運業者都打趴了。另外就是駕駛人數其實從總體來看，是一個下降趨勢，不只是人數變少而已，還有高齡化的問題。你知道高齡駕駛總是相對有危險，所以客運業者跟客運業人力的新陳代謝，是非常重要的事情。客運缺工、駕駛高齡化，其實是交通部要面對的很重要的問題，部長同意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，現在人才大量流失了，為什麼？請部長回答。"],["陳部長世凱：一方面勞動條件，一方面薪資的問題，再來就是當時因為疫情，所以很多客運業者的狀況不太好，很多人才就直接流失了，也直接轉到其他行業去，要回來不太容易。還有一點就是，大家對於客運的服務品質，要求其實滿高的……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：所以很多客運的司機員，大家都反映說壓力相當大。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，不錯，部長這次的回答我非常滿意，基本上完全命中。第一個是疫情重挫乘車需求，讓業者的營運狀況雪上加霜。第二個，基本上因為勞基法修了一例一休之後，當然要保障他們的工時，這本席完全同意，可是相對來講，這造成了實務上一些競合的狀況，也就是說客運業者，有些人可能真的是生活非常非常辛苦，家裡只有一份薪水，他後來算了一下發現，最近有新聞開始講，去開Uber、去跑外送，加起來搞不好勞動時間一樣長，他寧願讓自己過勞，但是他可以賺的錢比較多，他不受這樣子的一個規範，所以相對來講又吃掉了一部分司機的員額。第三個就是勞動的環境跟條件，除了薪資不高之外，常常被人家客訴，然後每次要等待班待命的時候，在破破爛爛的場站裡面，連躺下來休息的地方都沒有，這些勞動環境不佳，也是客運司機心灰意冷的原因。部長，問題意思非常清楚，但是解決方案不清楚，問題意思清楚也沒有用，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：以這一段時間來講，我們剛剛講的，因為疫情的關係，我們必須要先幫科技業者打幾劑強心針，讓他們至少願意留在市場上，更有甚者，必須拿政府的補貼來增加駕駛的薪水，方向都正確，但這個額度能看嗎？部長，全國總共有幾家國道客運業者？"],["陳部長世凱：這個數字我不曉得，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個數字是你們交通部的業報寫的，今天的報告大家桌上都有，你們要不要說明一下？"],["陳部長世凱：請局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：客運業者有三百多家。"],["牛委員煦庭：三百多家，然後運價這樣總共……你們講的，差額由政府補貼，一年額度1.3億。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，這是一般公路客運，還有國道客運……"],["陳部長世凱：這是一般客運的差額。"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，我的意思是，這個額度其實不成比例，今天的問題已經很嚴重，嚴重到業者都送進加護病房，司機通通不願意來，如果是這麼嚴重的狀況，你還在吃感冒藥，要上葉克膜的病人，給他吃感冒藥有用嗎？其實是沒有用的。我要提醒部長，上次我們討論的時候，我說部長相對年輕，應該要拿出魄力，整個政府在交通裡面的相關預算，隨便拿一條出來比，你就會發現那個落差其實非常巨大，捷運工程很重要，本席完全同意，可是相對來講，硬體跟軟體總要平衡吧，你看這個比例差額也是不能看，每一年要補助各地方政府、協助建設，加起來幾千億是跑不掉的，但相對來講，全國客運的補貼加起來不到捷運的一根毛。這就是問題，新政府上任之後，我們期待他有新的思維，500億投資在客運業者可能很多狀況會改變，大筆預算和政策方向調整出來時，才能夠大幅度改善運價的條件，幫客運業者專案加薪，這是本席的第一個建議，但我到現在沒等到，從本席就任立法委員以來，從看守內閣時我就問這個事，您上任的時候我也提過，我不曉得什麼時候才會落實，但我真的很誠懇地希望交通部面對問題核心，其實就是看交通部要不要做資源結構性的調整，讓公車這件事情變成交通部的重點業務目標，有相應的資源跟人力下去，才有辦法大幅度的改善事情，要不然像上次運價調整，溝通搞了一年多，就只調了一塊兩毛五，對業者來講，根本沒有解決問題。"],["陳部長世凱：大部分是由政府吸收，所以民眾影響比較小。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你為了擔心這個……擔心的時候，政府的……我剛剛為什麼講要有幾百億的預算規模，就是不要衝擊民眾搭車的情況，因為要養量，在不衝擊的情況下，政府當然要下大資源，那我說下個500億在全國的公車系統，不虧啊！因為客運跟公車的量養起來，是幫未來的捷運在養量，也減少塞車跟停車的問題，這絕對划算，所以預算的大幅投入，我期待交通部可以作為。","第二個是有關勞動條件，我今天點一下，後面有時間我們再討論，客運的場站、公共汽車的停車場，從來沒有在我們的都市計畫或者是區域計畫裡面被深刻的討論，但它有沒有需要？它有需要，因為它是交通節點，也可以改善業者的投資環境，並改善司機的勞動環境，這件事情如果交通部能夠把它列為重點工作項目，在幾個地方先行試辦，把這個東西打開，也許業者才會感受到我們政府對這個政策的重視，也只有從這種大方向有魄力的著手，才有辦法改善業者倒閉、司機缺工的問題，改善公車的品質，希望部長可以儘快提出解決方案，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員。講真的這很重要，停車場真的是……他們是過一天算一天，所以不可能有像樣的硬體投資，我們的駕駛人員也不可能有像樣的休息空間，我覺得是滿有道理，我們來研究。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156152","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156152","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b8ac565766765b3b3e0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f91bdf61f3f9847d925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:10:46 - 12:17:51","影片長度":"00:07:05","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:10:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:17:51+08:00","duration":425,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.76471875,"end":3.9797187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.50284375,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.21971875,"end":7.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.41346875,"end":9.953468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.015968750000003,"end":55.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.38284375,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.55034375,"end":24.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.76471875,"end":58.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.77284375000001,"end":64.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.13909375,"end":75.83346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.79159375,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.67034375,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.08284375000001,"end":106.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.65659375000001,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.07784375,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.29721875000001,"end":105.33096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.33096875000001,"end":105.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.61784375,"end":105.71909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.68096875,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.76534375,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.02534375,"end":123.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.46721875,"end":134.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.02284375000002,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.84034375000002,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.38846875000002,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.99596875,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.18971875,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.46034375000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.47721875000002,"end":168.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.69659375,"end":168.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.74721875,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.03409375,"end":170.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.72159375,"end":186.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.63471875000002,"end":186.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.47846875000002,"end":189.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.07284375,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.05909375000002,"end":209.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.37409375000001,"end":209.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.55096875,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.97284375,"end":213.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.19159375,"end":237.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.62971875000002,"end":220.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.05034375000002,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.22159375,"end":256.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.15534375000004,"end":258.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.58971875000003,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.87159375000005,"end":267.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.60096875,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.03096875,"end":270.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.29659375,"end":275.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.61659375,"end":275.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.63346875,"end":276.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.66721875,"end":280.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.55659375,"end":303.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.83596875,"end":306.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.69221875,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.00846875,"end":306.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.26159375000003,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.80159375,"end":311.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.83534375,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.94409375000004,"end":312.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.96096875,"end":319.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.54284375000003,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.09909375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.83284375,"end":329.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.98784375,"end":334.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.17346875000004,"end":331.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.05034375,"end":346.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.57596875,"end":352.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.39846875,"end":354.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.19909375000003,"end":377.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.23659375,"end":358.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.71034375000005,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.17846875000004,"end":381.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.94596875,"end":397.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.09971875,"end":424.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.13346875,"end":424.80846875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.432,"end":6.803,"text":"謝謝主席我們請交通部陳部長還有公路局陳局長"},{"start":15.309,"end":33.329,"text":"部長好、局長好、委員好我相信大家早上都問了很多有關於這個我們這個客運的司機這個人力不足的問題那其實我看了你們的這一個報告裡面也發現到就是說在公路客運這部分的話現有人力是3625個人然後缺員是772個"},{"start":36.773,"end":41.156,"text":"市區客運現有人力10,866缺員1,443遊覽車業者也有缺但是實際上我們零有駕駛職業實照的司機數量是遠遠超過於這邊那部長或是局長這邊有沒有想到說為什麼"},{"start":57.24,"end":78.29,"text":"我明明有這個這個執照有這個駕照那為什麼不願意投入這一個客運的司機的這個工作我想一般人的就業啦應該是考慮他的這個職場環境職場環境就是一個那另外就是待遇可能有沒有符合他的想像部長就點到兩個重點了吧一個是職場的環境的問題第二個就是說這個待遇的問題那其實我的問題跟剛剛岳勤委員的問題類似就是說"},{"start":84.393,"end":98.488,"text":"現在我們看好像這個司機他們月薪比如說坑月者司機可能月薪大概有大概多少?七、八萬以上有嗎?七、八萬甚至到十萬都有也有機會那他們的月薪是多少?"},{"start":100.128,"end":123.764,"text":"他們大概月薪是多少月薪如果委員所指的是基本底薪基本底薪因為各家公司不一樣只是說剛剛所提到的那個是正常的排班之下的話大概就是說他們的平均薪資就是七八萬到有的資深的可以到十萬但是他們的底薪大概都是基本薪資那剩下都是用這個加班的方式"},{"start":124.537,"end":138.856,"text":"它是就是說有排班啦它有排班就是說因為比如說這個可能就是如果是你出班的那個日數啦頻率比較少的話所以1 3分之1是底薪1 3分之2是這個排班的這個薪水這樣講比例有沒有錯大概是1比2"},{"start":142.438,"end":166.251,"text":"我的問題就是在於說啦1比1或1比2都會有就是說就變成是說那如果沒有客運業者這個業績這個債運沒有受到影響的話那當然就是這個還可以維持下去但是在COVID-19之後整個都受到影響了嘛大家客運的人就減少了那變成說司機的薪水變相也減少了是不是有這個問題"},{"start":168.639,"end":189.195,"text":"如果班次少他的收入當然就會減少對啊就會減少那所以就是說這是剛才部長提到的第二點就是說他是心智的問題心智的問題那我們剛才有看到這一個現在在這個臺北車站吧臺北這一個營運站他那一個這個二樓的這一個我們看一下那一個照片這一個國道客運的臺北轉運站二樓是淪為空城那為什麼"},{"start":198.58,"end":222.929,"text":"當然客運業者他的業績狀況不太好這個大家都知道那再來就租金非常的高在二樓可能聽說要幾百對啊那過去過去還真的過去那因為現在就是生意不好沒有這麼多人在那邊了嘛對啊那所以說臺北轉運站的二樓現在這個大概三四家租金比較便宜所以二樓現在就變成空城了嘛"},{"start":224.029,"end":252.84,"text":"國道客運的載客量衰退36%那也造成說那個業者他們的這一個營運的這個壓力增加那所以我要請教一下部長跟局長就是說第一個當然我們希望說能夠幫這一個司機來加薪水那加薪水這部分的話我看地方政府是有在做地方政府他們有在補助就是說這個比如像雙北大概"},{"start":253.46,"end":280.118,"text":"有可能在年底的時候會補助大概六千塊左右那這部分的話在中央的部分的話對於這個國道科育業者有沒有這個想法或是說有這個機會來補助來補助這個我們這個國道科育業者報告委員這個補助地方政府會補助那我想中央也都有中央的補助是我們挑到這個那中央的補助勒"},{"start":281.898,"end":310.297,"text":"跟委員報告就是說基本上其實在整個的運價包括這一個公路客運跟國道客運的運價其實這兩年已經都做了相關的調整了合理的反映他們的運輸的成本那運價調整之後的話就是說我們都有要求業者就是說這個提升的這一個部分的話其實要回饋到這個駕駛的薪資的一個對啦那我的意思就是說我們現在注意這個地方政府地方政府他們有在補助司機啦那國道客運的駕駛有沒有辦法來補助勒"},{"start":313.46,"end":333.839,"text":"我們目前是補助給業者但是我們有要求補助給他的裡面有一定的比例是要給駕駛員那現在是補助是多少勒因為我們大概一年就是說像國道科運的話一年補助大概有6億元那公務科運一年有1到2億元那有多少是拿來是做這個月薪的這個調整勒"},{"start":335.337,"end":353.962,"text":"月薪的調整這個部分的話其實當初大概就是說在勞動條件上面我們有請業者就是說征服的這個部分因為大概都有增加10%的一個就是說他們這樣子啊你給我一個給我一個報告好了好不好就是說中央補助的部分的話大概他們薪資可以增加大概4000元"},{"start":355.842,"end":380.117,"text":"就是說 麻煩你給我一個比較明確的報告就是說你們對於這個業者的補助的話還有多少是拿來做這一個這個四季的加薪因為至少我知道說雙北他們都有加薪的六千塊啦然後還有這個國道路線的話現在是只有補助這個平面的兩個端點高速路段並沒有補貼那這個有沒有機會說在高速路段的部分比照平面路段這個採用準運機制納入補貼"},{"start":382.197,"end":396.415,"text":"這個部分我們也有在研議而且國道客運的話就是說我們除了就是說國道走平面路段有補貼以外另外就是說對於就是說這個運價成長之後它沒有反映到票價所以票差的這個部分我們也有給他們協助"},{"start":397.496,"end":423.114,"text":"那這部分我是希望說這個能夠協助這個客運業者啦因為其實客運還是有許多人他會選擇的一個搭運的一個交通的一個方式啦因為我們對於這個相對於說對高鐵啊對鐵路啊就相對好像有多一點這個關照的眼神那但是對客運業者說是比較少啦那我希望這一點也能夠再加強好不好好謝謝部長謝謝局長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":628,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時10分）謝謝主席，我們請交通部陳部長，還有公路局陳局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、陳局長。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，局長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：我相信大家早上都問了很多關於客運司機人力不足的問題，其實我看了你們的報告，發現在公路客運這部分，現有人力是3,625個人，缺員是772個。市區客運的話，現有人力是1萬866個，缺員是1,443個，然後遊覽車業者也有缺，但是實際上，我們領有駕駛職業執照的司機，數量是遠遠超過這邊。部長或是局長，有沒有想到為什麼？我明明有這一個執照，有這個駕照為什麼不願意投入客運司機的工作？"],["陳部長世凱：我想一般人的就業應該是考慮他的職場環境，這是一個，另外就是待遇有沒有符合他的想像，這個部分應該滿重要的。"],["李委員坤城：部長點到兩個重點，一個是職場環境的問題，第二個就是待遇的問題。其實我的問題跟剛剛月琴委員的問題類似，現在我們看到司機的月薪，比如，客運業司機的月薪大概有七、八萬以上，有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：七、八萬，甚至到十萬也有機會。"],["李委員坤城：他們的月薪大概是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：如果委員所指的是他的基本底薪……"],["李委員坤城：對，基本底薪。"],["陳局長文瑞：基本底薪因為各家公司不一樣，只是剛剛所提到的是正常的排班之下的話，他們的平均薪資大概就是七、八萬，資深的可以到十萬。"],["李委員坤城：對，但是他們的底薪大概就是基本薪資，那剩下都是用加班的方式。"],["陳局長文瑞：他有排班，就是如果你出班的日數、頻率比率比較少的話……"],["李委員坤城：三分之一是底薪，三分之二是排班的薪水，這樣的比例有沒有錯？大概是一比二，我覺得問題就在於說……"],["陳部長世凱：一比一或一比二都會有。"],["李委員坤城：就變成如果客運業者的載運沒有受到影響的話，那當然就是還可以維持下去，但是在COVID-19之後整個都受到影響，搭客運的人就減少了，變成司機的薪水變相也減少了，是不是有這個問題？"],["陳部長世凱：如果班次少，他的收入當然就會減少。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！就會減少。這是剛才部長提到的第二點，就是他的薪資問題。我們剛才有看到，現在在臺北車站的營運站二樓，我們看一下那一張照片，國道客運的臺北轉運站二樓淪為空城，為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：當然客運業者的業績狀況不太好，這個大家都知道，再來就是租金非常高，聽說在二樓可能一個月要三十幾萬。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！過去還撐得過去，因為現在就是生意不好，沒有這麼多人在那邊了嘛！所以臺北轉運站的二樓，現在這個大概……"],["陳部長世凱：他們往上移。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！租金比較便宜，那二樓現在就變成空城了嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員坤城：國道客運載客量衰退36%，那也造成業者的營運壓力增加，所以我要請教一下部長跟局長，第一個，當然我們希望能夠幫司機加薪，加薪這部分的話，我看地方政府是有在做，地方政府他們有在補助，比如像雙北有可能在年底的時候會補助大概6,000塊左右。在中央的部分，對於國道客運業者有沒有這個想法，或是有這個機會來補助國道客運業者？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於補助，地方政府會補助，我想中央也都有。"],["李委員坤城：那中央的補助呢？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，基本上在整個的運價，包括公路客運跟國道客運的運價，其實這兩年已經都做了相關的調整，合理的反映他們的運輸成本。運價調整之後，我們都有要求業者，提升的部分其實要回饋到駕駛薪資的成長。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！現在地方政府有在補助司機，那國道客運的駕駛有沒有辦法補助？"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前是補助給業者，但是我們有要求補助給他的裡面，有一定的比例是要給駕駛員。"],["李委員坤城：現在是補助多少呢？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們大概一年補助國道客運6億元，公路客運一年有1到2億元，其實這些……"],["李委員坤城：有多少是拿來做月薪的調整呢？"],["陳局長文瑞：月薪的調整部分，其實當初在勞動條件上面，我們有請業者針對增幅的這個部分，因為大概都有增加10%的營運成本……"],["李委員坤城：你給我一個報告好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["李委員坤城：就是說中央的補助部分……"],["陳局長文瑞：他們的薪資平均可以增加大概4,000元。"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，你給我一個比較明確的報告，你們對於業者的補助有多少是拿來做司機的加薪，因為至少我知道雙北都有加薪6,000塊。還有國道路線的部分，現在只有補助平面的兩個端點，高速路段並沒有補貼，在高速路段的部分有沒有機會比照平面路段，採用準運價機制納入補貼？"],["陳局長文瑞：這個部分我們也有在研議，而且國道客運的話，我們除了國道走平面路段有補貼以外，另外就是對於運價成長之後它沒有反映到票價，所以票差的部分，我們也有給他們協助。"],["李委員坤城：好，這部分我是希望能夠協助客運業者，因為客運還是有許多人會選擇搭運的交通方式，因為我們對於高鐵、鐵路，就相對好像有多一點關照的眼神，但是對於客運業者是比較少，希望這一點也能夠再加強，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝部長、謝謝局長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝李委員。接下來有請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156151","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156151","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b96f1764d001a69ccacf2ea2eceb6ef265966be1ac5b6e0f93b3d0bf90661b4be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:41:44 - 12:49:36","影片長度":"00:07:52","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:41:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:49:36+08:00","duration":472,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.2372187500000003,"end":4.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.08096875,"end":6.966593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.35034375,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.83534375,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.164093750000003,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.94409375,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.37846875,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.07409375,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.575343750000002,"end":30.254093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.355343750000003,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.32534375,"end":34.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.23221875,"end":37.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.20221875,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.104093750000004,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.79534375,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.87096875,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.27971875,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.46534375,"end":57.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.88721875,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.89534375,"end":58.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.87409375,"end":64.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.90284375,"end":65.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.55659375,"end":65.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.57346875,"end":79.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.00721875,"end":71.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.22971875,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.01846875000001,"end":80.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":83.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.98409375,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.70096875,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.20221875,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.95721875000001,"end":95.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.21846875,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.80471875,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.01971875000001,"end":100.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.09534375000001,"end":106.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.01846875000001,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.05596875,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.10596875,"end":115.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.92846875000001,"end":118.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.67909375,"end":123.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.75409375000001,"end":128.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.71971875,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.45784375,"end":133.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.18721875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.88034375,"end":155.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.61846875,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.02534375000002,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.80909375000002,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.95659375000002,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.47096875,"end":182.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.97284375,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.68971875000003,"end":187.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.20409375,"end":192.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.96284375000002,"end":194.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.48159375,"end":199.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.64534375000002,"end":201.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.45096875000002,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.21846875,"end":212.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.68534375000002,"end":214.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.73159375,"end":216.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.31784375,"end":218.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.86596875,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.27471875,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.18596875,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.19721875000002,"end":234.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.74534375000002,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.57159375,"end":241.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.39409375000002,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.18284375000002,"end":244.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.86596875,"end":251.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.51471875000001,"end":253.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.94909375,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.21034375,"end":256.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.18909375000004,"end":260.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.64034375,"end":259.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.68659375000004,"end":269.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.31909375000004,"end":262.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.54159375,"end":270.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.57534375,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.60471875,"end":288.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.83659375,"end":273.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.39971875000003,"end":289.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.53846875,"end":290.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.65659375,"end":309.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.14346875,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.14284375,"end":316.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.23034375000003,"end":322.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.61846875000003,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.52096875,"end":321.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.02284375,"end":329.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.88221875000005,"end":332.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.94096875,"end":334.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.45971875000004,"end":341.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.35784375000003,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.44596875,"end":344.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.19659375000003,"end":350.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.14471875000004,"end":352.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.98846875000004,"end":355.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.03034375000004,"end":364.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.04659375,"end":360.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.91534375000003,"end":377.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.50846875,"end":375.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.89596875,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.43909375000004,"end":386.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.24471875,"end":388.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.11784375,"end":391.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.95284375,"end":396.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.57221875000005,"end":398.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.17534375,"end":408.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.36784375,"end":410.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.17346875000004,"end":412.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.29971875,"end":415.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.45971875000004,"end":416.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.11346875000004,"end":420.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.62346875000003,"end":427.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.93034375,"end":428.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.12846875,"end":430.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.74846875000003,"end":434.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.98409375000006,"end":447.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.18034375,"end":448.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.17596875000004,"end":453.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.61409375000005,"end":454.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.71096875,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.48659375000005,"end":466.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.25346875,"end":467.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.65409375,"end":469.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.71721875000003,"end":469.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.43846875,"end":470.97846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":10.696,"text":"主席 請徐副部長 還有我們陸軍司令部參謀長王委員好副部長好 參謀長好 延續剛才楊瓊英委員所質詢的題目無人機反制系統是我們"},{"start":21.344,"end":50.078,"text":"部長顧部長他特別講今年度一個優先採購的項目但是現在招標作業並不順利如同剛才楊瓊英委員所講的因為前兩次一次因為流標只有一家第二次因為兩家的最後的驗證的結果通通不合格也流標所以現在第三次的招標作業但是"},{"start":52.486,"end":76.733,"text":"這個為什麼會一再的流標啊?支部部長還是參謀長來回答一下這個整個一個平衡過程我看採購室吧光採購室來做的嘛來光採購室來向委員做個說明趕快喔時間有限喔各位委員報告這個他主要第一次流標是因為未達三家我剛講了嗎第二次流標是第二次廢標是因為啊廠商交了樣機啊沒有經過陸軍的這個POC的驗證不合格是好"},{"start":80.994,"end":84.279,"text":"那為什麼會這樣的狀況事實上在我們這個9億8963萬這個這麼大型的標案的過程裡面包含媒體都有一再的報導"},{"start":96.478,"end":123.854,"text":"譬如說說你們呢接受這個我先接受這兩套未完成整合的無人機反制系統因為他沒有完成整合然後你看到最後似乎是在為廠商鋪路果不其然最後因為你開出的規格只有一家來做投標所以我剛講就一家嘛最後就留標了"},{"start":125.073,"end":152.948,"text":"那一家流包沒有關係等第二次嘛等第二次之後呢沒想到突然殺出個陳曉金來了那因為剛才部長 副部長也講回答楊瓊英委員說我們從頭沒有改沒有改但是你們中間有改啦你們中間改了這個公告招標作業呢是把他的軍事裝備的營業稅讓他免稅那造成了大家覺得可能有利可圖"},{"start":154.148,"end":179.464,"text":"結果跑出一個陳曉金因為如果第二次還是那個似乎這位魔廠商在部落的那個廠商來一家就解決了嘛第二次就解決了沒想到第二次跑來了一個陳曉金跑來跟你一起投標那其結果那投標大家都一起來嘛一起這個來做測試兩個都不合格所以通通又變廢標嘛"},{"start":181.533,"end":200.489,"text":"所以我要講的是這個高達將近10億的案子這中間包含媒體都一直在做隱喻甚至直接講啦直接點出說看起來應該從第1次到第2次甚至到第3次大家都看好或者認為應該那家創未來會繼續的來投標"},{"start":206.055,"end":230.171,"text":"第一次就只有一個創未來嘛第二次創未來又來了只是我剛剛講殺出了另外一家公司跑過來投標那所以這個規格真的你們用最高標準嗎符合美國的標準嗎這樣讓外界認為是量身訂做的一個標案其結果就是反反覆覆從7月開始"},{"start":232.39,"end":254.462,"text":"進入第一次招標程序現在看起來今年底能不能完成能不能達到你們顧立雄部長他所設定的目標看起來都有都有很大的變數所以為什麼在媒體或者外界都認為有特定廠商鋪路而造成了一直延宕"},{"start":256.286,"end":270.295,"text":"所以副部長能回答嗎?還是參謀長回答?報告委員,我是陸軍參謀長向委員報告第一個,有關於所謂報導有為廠商鋪路或是量身訂做這個絕對不是事實這第一點那我為什麼這樣講?因為啊"},{"start":276.539,"end":292.125,"text":"他在整個POC的測試他是由所謂的第三方公正還有民間的學者剛剛副部長報告了他包含到相關的航電資訊電子這個是第二個我要報告的第三個"},{"start":294.626,"end":310.578,"text":"因為她的測試她是在一套標準但是單獨來實施兩家廠商她在不同天來實施但是共同的監測全程錄影而且這個如果說為她鋪路的話事實上她也是不合格的單位因為我剛剛講你們規格就綁在那裡了嘛"},{"start":318.752,"end":329.223,"text":"這個規格是依照我們的自然需求來訂定的你規格像無人機人家美國比我們先進吧這反制性有沒有先進我們為什麼沒有採取人家美國的標準呢"},{"start":330.916,"end":349.348,"text":"我們自己找一家特定廠商弄出來的一個規格對不對自己最後又沒有整合成功我們並不是用這家特定廠商的規格就是大家都認為說被這個特定廠商所這個他一定會來投標我們可以拭目以待嘛第三次11月嘛這家廠商會不會出現嘛"},{"start":353.099,"end":373.75,"text":"有多大機率這家廠商會不會出現因為他沒有停權這是他投標的自由但是我代表其他的廠商沒有比他優的規格這個第二次的這個突然出現了一個陳咬金就不在你們的劇情之內嘛本來劇情是寫這樣子怎麼跑出一家所以我在這邊特別質詢的是"},{"start":377.992,"end":395.941,"text":"無人機反制系統之重要也是你們國防部視為優先的採購項目但是請不要因為特殊的原因特殊的人事的關心我聽到的更多"},{"start":397.642,"end":410.315,"text":"直接說啦我們最近不是還有什麼某某什麼立委啊連那個不那個什麼根本不合格的人都硬塞到某些單位人事的關心採購的關心"},{"start":413.362,"end":429.628,"text":"所以我在這邊公開直接說我們支持這個金額非常龐大我們也認為優先要去做建制尤其我們在離島的部分更需要但是不要因為"},{"start":430.708,"end":431.208,"text":"所以也請當然今天部長他"},{"start":452.466,"end":452.586,"text":"王鴻薇"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":990,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時41分）謝謝主席。請徐副部長。"],["主席：請副部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有陸軍司令部參謀長。"],["徐副部長衍璞：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：副部長好、參謀長好。延續剛才楊瓊瓔委員所質詢的題目，無人機反制系統是我們顧部長特別講今年度一個優先採購的項目，但是現在招標作業並不順利，如同剛才楊瓊瓔委員所講的，在前兩次，一次因為流標，只有一家，第二次因為兩家最後的驗證結果統統不合格，也流標，所以現在是第三次招標作業。但是為什麼會一再流標啊？"],["徐副部長衍璞：報告委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：是副部長還是參謀長來回答一下。"],["徐副部長衍璞：這整個評核過程，我看是由採購室做的，請國防採購室向委員說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：趕快，我時間有限。"],["趙主任亞平：跟委員報告，第一次流標是因為未達三家。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講了嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：第二次廢標是因為廠商交了樣機沒有經過陸軍的POC器驗證。"],["王委員鴻薇：都不合格。"],["趙主任亞平：不合格，是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，為什麼會這樣的狀況？事實上，在我們這個9億8,963萬這麼大型標案的過程，包含媒體都有一再報導指出，你們接受這兩套未完成整合無人機反制系統，你再看到最後提到：「似乎是為廠商在鋪路。」果不其然，最後因為你開出的規格只有一家來投標，所以我剛剛講，只有一家嘛，最後就流標了，流標沒有關係，就等第二次嘛！第二次之後沒想到突然殺出個程咬金，因為剛才副部長回答楊瓊瓔委員的時候說我們統統沒有改，但是你們中間有改，你們中間改了公告招標作業，是讓軍事裝備營業稅免稅，造成大家覺得可能有利可圖，結果跑出一個程咬金。因為如果第二次還是似乎在為某廠商鋪路的那個廠商來，那就一家就解決了嘛！第二次就解決了。沒想到第二次跑來了一個程咬金，跑來一起投標，投標就是大家一起來測試，結果兩個都不合格，所以統統又變成廢標了。所以我要講的是這個高達將近10億的案子，中間包含媒體都一直在隱喻，甚至直接講，直接點出看起來從第一次到第二次，甚至到第三次，大家都看好，或者認為那家創未來應該會繼續來投標，第一次就只有一個創未來，第二次創未來又來了，只是我剛剛講殺出了另外一家公司跑過來投標。所以這個規格，你們真的用最高標準嗎？符合美國的標準嗎？這樣讓外界認為是量身訂作的一個標案，其結果就是反反覆覆，從7月開始進入第一次招標程序，現在看起來今年底能不能完成、能不能達到你們顧立雄部長他所設定的目標？看起來都有很大的變數。所以為什麼在媒體或者外界都認為有為某特定廠商鋪路，而造成一直延宕？副部長能回答嗎？還是參謀長回答？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我是陸軍參謀長，向委員報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：是。"],["陳參謀長建義：第一個，有關所謂報導有為廠商鋪路，或是量身訂作這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：絕無此事？"],["陳參謀長建義：絕對不是事實！這第一點。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個我都可以幫你講。"],["陳參謀長建義：那我為什麼這樣講，第二，因為在整個POC測試，它是由所謂的第三方公證，還有民間的學者，剛剛副部長報告了，它包括相關的航電、資訊、電子……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，你的意思是說，你看我都沒有讓它pass，對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：這個是第二個我要報告的。第三個，因為它的測試是在一套標準，但是單獨實施，兩家廠商在不同天實施，但是共同監測、全程錄影，如果說是為它鋪路的話，事實上它也是不合格的單位。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我時間有限。參謀長，我不需要你答非所問，因為我剛剛講了，你們規格就綁在那裡了嘛！這不是你後面測試的問題……"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個規格是依照我們的作戰需求來訂定的。"],["王委員鴻薇：像無人機的規格，人家美國的反制系統比我們先進吧，我們為什麼沒有採取人家美國的標準呢？我們自己找一家特定廠商弄出來的規格對不對？自己最後又沒有整合成功……"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我們並不是用這家特定廠商的規格。"],["王委員鴻薇：最後變成大家都認為這個特定廠商一定會來投標，我們可以拭目以待嘛！第三次在11月，這家廠商會不會出現？有多大機率這家廠商會出現？"],["陳參謀長建義：這家廠商會不會出現，因為它沒有停權，這是它投標的自由。"],["王委員鴻薇：是。"],["陳參謀長建義：但是不代表其他廠商沒有比它優的規格。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我就跟你講，第二次突然出現一個程咬金就不在你們的劇情之內嘛！本來劇情是寫這樣子，怎麼又跑出一家？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，完全沒有這樣的預設。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我在這邊特別質詢的是，無人機反制系統之重要，也是你們國防部視為優先的採購項目，但是請不要因為特殊的原因、特殊的人事的關心，我聽到的更多，直接說啦！最近不是還有什麼某某立委將根本不合格的人硬塞到某些單位，這就是人事的關心、採購的關心，所以我在這邊公開直接說，我們支持，而這個金額非常龐大，我們也認為應該優先建置，尤其在我們離島的部分更需要，但是不要因為要為特殊廠商量身訂作，不要因為要向特殊人士交代，而使得我們這個標案一再延宕，其結果是我們大家一起付代價，這是我今天在這邊苦口婆心，好不好？當然今天部長請假不在，我覺得你們要反映給部長知道，你很著急，但是在這個流程上，只要這個流程出現想要為人家量身訂作，其結果就是如此！好不好？謝謝。"],["徐副部長衍璞：感謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員，副部長請回。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","接下來我們請黃捷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},{"id":"156147","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156147","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b99e71bac6ba4c8a61a854d634de4a24c5966be1ac5b6e0f9dbb0adfc082709ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:38:14 - 12:46:59","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:38:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:46:59+08:00","duration":525,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.41034375,"end":3.2034687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.020968750000002,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.53034375,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.79971875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.035968750000002,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.30596875,"end":27.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.195343750000003,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.56034375,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.41221875,"end":47.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.00659375,"end":50.976593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.533468750000004,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.64596875,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.11409375,"end":65.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.97846875,"end":67.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.18909375,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.24721875,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.60534375,"end":82.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.36409375000001,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.52409375,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.65034375,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.13096875000001,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.56534375000001,"end":93.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.53096875,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.51784375000001,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.15471875,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.13346875,"end":102.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.37784375000001,"end":104.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.43659375,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.80784375,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.77784375,"end":108.89159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.70159375,"end":110.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.28784375000001,"end":115.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.83534375,"end":122.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.42534375000001,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.45909375000001,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.69534375,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.96471875,"end":128.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.29784375,"end":131.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.63909375,"end":138.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.50284375,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.13909375,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.13034375,"end":148.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.21034375000002,"end":148.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.73346875000001,"end":150.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.99471875,"end":154.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.69034375,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.61784375000002,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.58784375000002,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.80221875,"end":170.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.26159375,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.55221875,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.56846875000002,"end":180.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.11659375000002,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.55846875,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.18221875,"end":195.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.20284375,"end":203.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.20159375,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.58096875,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.83346875,"end":210.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.01909375000002,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.10346875000002,"end":211.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.28409375,"end":222.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.24096875,"end":224.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.73846875,"end":225.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.36284375000002,"end":225.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.15159375000002,"end":232.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.38284375,"end":235.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.43721875000003,"end":237.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.44534375,"end":237.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.83346875,"end":242.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.77784375000002,"end":247.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.30034375000002,"end":251.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.23659375000003,"end":250.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.90721875000003,"end":252.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.48096875000002,"end":252.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.51471875000001,"end":254.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.42159375000003,"end":256.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.10471875,"end":258.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.94409375000004,"end":263.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.02346875,"end":267.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.25909375000003,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.81471875,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.21534375000005,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.62409375000004,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.68659375000004,"end":292.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.42409375,"end":295.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.96784375000004,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.12721875,"end":308.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.14721875000004,"end":314.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.18096875000003,"end":309.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.93534375,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.23784375,"end":328.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.67159375,"end":331.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.87784375,"end":334.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.74659375000005,"end":337.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.24409375000005,"end":341.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.99034375,"end":345.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.15471875000003,"end":342.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.01909375,"end":347.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.62221875,"end":348.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.01034375,"end":348.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.14534375,"end":349.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.22534375000004,"end":350.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.68096875000003,"end":351.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.38534375,"end":354.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.42721875,"end":356.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.63346875,"end":362.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.89409375,"end":365.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.96534375000005,"end":372.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.96846875,"end":374.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.26346875,"end":376.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.61346875000004,"end":378.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.45284375,"end":381.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.37221875,"end":383.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.97096875,"end":385.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.26596875,"end":389.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.23159375,"end":391.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.90221875000003,"end":392.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.96534375000005,"end":394.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.41221875,"end":400.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.28471875,"end":406.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.16159375,"end":408.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.05596875000003,"end":407.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.74346875000003,"end":408.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.77721875000003,"end":409.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.24971875,"end":410.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.08909375,"end":415.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.99971875,"end":420.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.35346875000005,"end":422.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.22221875,"end":424.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.82534375,"end":427.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.01471875000004,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.57971875000004,"end":431.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.57096875,"end":433.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.46096875,"end":437.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.76846875,"end":440.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.97471875,"end":444.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.12596875,"end":446.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.67409375000005,"end":450.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.31909375000004,"end":454.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.77846875,"end":456.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.97221875,"end":458.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.74409375000005,"end":460.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.00534375,"end":464.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.17346875000004,"end":469.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.81409375000004,"end":477.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.09971875,"end":480.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.76596875,"end":484.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.24221875,"end":488.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.27534375000005,"end":493.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.78534375000004,"end":493.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.23659375000005,"end":493.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.72596875000005,"end":494.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.94534375,"end":508.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.82534375000006,"end":506.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.12471875000006,"end":507.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.49159375000005,"end":511.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.61346875000004,"end":515.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.0515937499999,"end":517.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.49846875,"end":520.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.9622187500001,"end":521.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.9072187500001,"end":523.3247187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.492,"end":3.07,"text":"謝謝主席 有請監管會主委請彭主委"},{"start":10.226,"end":37.901,"text":"主委好今天看到今晚會提出政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心以及要協助金融科技新創產業的專題報告我拜讀完這份報告以後非常的有感觸我為什麼說我非常的有感觸我第一次聽到要把臺灣打造成亞洲資產管理中心亞洲第一個資產管理中心我第一次聽到這個口號是在2001年的時候"},{"start":39.862,"end":59.349,"text":"陳水扁政府2001年的時候陳水扁政府經過了23年經過了23年我們又重新的打出了這個口號能實踐不能實踐我一向不喜歡唱衰啦但我要提醒你我們上次打出這個口號是23年23年前"},{"start":62.63,"end":88.142,"text":"23年後的今天再度的打出這樣子的口號我覺得對於整個臺灣真的所謂不管是金融還是資產管理發展有所瞭解專業的人物專業的人士大家的感慨是很深的我們的政府非常會喊口號喊完口號了以後做得到做不到反正也不是我的事因為我任期早就結束了"},{"start":89.158,"end":115.202,"text":"第二個金融科技的發展我看了這個更感觸我第一次到立法院的時候2018年Fintech金融沙盒立專法就是我們那屆財委會過的結果發展到現在2024年臺灣的Fintech臺灣的Fintech發展最有名的一件事情是什麼部長你知道諸位你知道嗎"},{"start":118.124,"end":144.589,"text":"臺灣的Fintech發展從2018年有沙盒到現在2024年最有名的一件事情是什麼你知道嗎這個每個人想法不一樣沒有關係你就跟大家講你的想法如果說我從金管監理沙盒的角度我覺得這個沙盒條例確實需要做一個調整所以你覺得經過了6年以來得到最好的教訓就是這個條例要調整"},{"start":146.122,"end":172.347,"text":"來我跟主委分享Fintech發展到現在絕對讓臺灣人民最有感的一件事情就是IMB這個詐騙集團在金融科技展上面展覽的事情我再講一次這6年來讓大家最有感的一件事情就是IMB這個詐騙集團竟然在我們的金融創新科技展裡面去招攬客戶繼續詐騙的事情"},{"start":174.602,"end":203.413,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子我要延續著我上一次問的啊金管會針對P2P上一屆的主委說要推指導原則我問他問了半天指導原則是什麼法律性質指導原則有法律效果嗎沒有啊從頭到尾沒有法律效果啊違反了也不能作為處罰的依據甚至不可以作為什麼不可以作為參與人的請求權基礎這個指導原則啊看起來真的不曉得要幹嘛"},{"start":204.428,"end":224.97,"text":"所以之前您第一次的時候我說我一定會給你時間說讓你回去思考你是不是還是要這樣子做那上一次我們見面的時候你說應該要分階段啦還是先讓業者自律啦那自律完了以後我們在下一階段看要怎麼辦嘛我們上次詢答的過程應該到這裡吧是的"},{"start":227.179,"end":256.079,"text":"那請問現在業者自律要拖動業者自律嘛我們從2023年的時候就開始喊說要指導他們成立工會嘛是的現在2024年10月底快結束了啦工會成立起來了嗎跟委員報告一下我們在6月的時候呢因為現在P2P呢他沒有了沒關係你先給大家一個答案再來講理由現在工會成立起來了嗎現在還沒有現在還沒有理由是什麼主要是在於說他們在"},{"start":257.29,"end":265.998,"text":"這些業者分成兩派他兩派想各自成立一個工會但是依據內政部的法律他們不可以成立兩個工會所以內政部出來協調6月協調一次失敗8月再開一次會"},{"start":268.311,"end":269.811,"text":"我老實跟主委講我一點都不在意"},{"start":292.498,"end":301.555,"text":"我在意的事情是說你們說要推自律嘛自律前面有個前提要成立工會嘛所以要成立工會從去年搞到現在搞了一年多"},{"start":302.345,"end":322.571,"text":"這個我有跟內政部跟法務部他們做好協調他們現在政委會請政委趕快出來協調這件事情沒有我現在有點搞不太懂臺灣不是法治國家嗎因為法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦啊怎麼會搞到是由政委出來喬兩派的業者這個不是很怪的事嗎"},{"start":324.032,"end":338.827,"text":"確實這個部分我們正在努力因為這個是內政部主政的內容所以我們現在想趕快其實我們另外一個想法就是說公會是一個問題那另外的話假設我們未來怎麼樣去納管這個在P2P上做融資的活動"},{"start":339.548,"end":365.179,"text":"我們接下來會想說需要多久剛剛你終於講到一句話引起我的注意你說將來要納管P2P嗎什麼時候要開始做因為你好不容易從自律聽要邁向納管因為現在自律主委我跟你交換一下我的觀察自律講了半天以後全部都是空包蛋"},{"start":366.021,"end":382.671,"text":"搞了一年了以後我這樣講好了啦如果今天所謂這兩派的業者連要怎麼成立工會都沒有辦法形成共識的話如果你認為放亂這些業者自律會達到自律的效果嗎"},{"start":384.005,"end":386.348,"text":"確實在這方面我們真的還要請我們各個部會趕快努力但是我覺得"},{"start":401.528,"end":402.309,"text":"我最後講一件事"},{"start":423.274,"end":446.211,"text":"我得到的消息是今年8月的時候開會對你們這種用喬的方式法務部有意見我再說一次你們既然用喬的方式法務部有意見所以法務部根本拒絕派代表去與會法務部拒絕派代表去與會就沒有辦法選出來這個是我了解到的資訊"},{"start":447.711,"end":476.77,"text":"那我就覺得真的是非常可笑的事情啊要仰賴業者自律業者沒辦法自律結果搞到半天什麼搞到半天要出來喬喬看要怎麼處理結果對於喬的這種方式法務部根本不想背書嘛人家連代表都不派去嘛讓你會開不成嘛我看會議記錄是說會後要如實呈報行政院嘛所以是應該呈報了以後行政院現在找一個政委出來喬就對了"},{"start":477.671,"end":477.766,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":478.3,"end":506.079,"text":"我最後因為主席站起來我最後只講一句話啦按照這樣發展的狀況主委你應該深深的可以感受到要求這些業者自律緣木求魚搞了一年多了啦要求業者自律緣木求魚搞了一年多了啦金管會如果還繼續放任這樣下去的話我希望不要再有下一個悲劇我希望不要再有下一個悲劇"},{"start":508.48,"end":508.721,"text":"其實我們請鍾嘉斌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1095,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時38分）謝謝主席。麻煩請金管會主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。今天看到金管會提出政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，以及要協助金融科技新創產業的專題報告。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員國昌：本席拜讀完這份報告以後，非常有感觸，為什麼說非常的有感觸？因為我第一次聽到要把臺灣打造成亞洲資產管理中心這個口號，是在2001年陳水扁政府的時候，經過了23年，我們又重新打出這個口號。能實踐，不能實踐？我一向不喜歡唱衰，但我要提醒你，我們上次打出這個口號是23年前，23年後的今天，再度打出這樣子的口號，我覺得對於整個臺灣，不管是金融還是資產管理發展有所了解的專業人士，大家的感慨都很深。我們的政府非常會喊口號，喊完口號，以後做得到做不到，反正也不是我的事，因為我任期早就結束了。","第二個金融科技的發展，我看了這個是更有感觸，2018年我第一次到立法院的時候，FinTech金融沙盒立專法，就是我們那一屆財委會通過的，從2018年有沙盒，到現在2024年，臺灣的FinTech發展最有名的一件事情是什麼？主委知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個每個人想法不一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你就跟大家講你的想法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果從金管監理沙盒的角度，我覺得這個沙盒條例確實需要做一個調整。"],["黃委員國昌：所以，你覺得經過這六年，得到最好的教訓，就是這個條例需要調整？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實不只……"],["黃委員國昌：我跟主委分享FinTech發展到現在，絕對讓臺灣人民最有感的一件事情，就是im.B這個詐騙集團，竟然在我們的金融科技展展覽裡面招攬客戶，繼續詐騙的事情！正因為如此，我要延續上一次問金管會有關P2P的問題，上一屆的主委說要推指導原則，我問了他半天，指導原則是什麼法律性質？指導原則有法律效果嗎？沒有啊！從頭到尾沒有法律效果，違反的也不能作為處罰的依據，甚至不可以作為參與人的請求權基礎，真不曉得這個指導原則要幹嘛。之前第一次問你的時候，我說一定會給你時間回去思考，是不是還是要這樣子做？上一次你說應該要分階段，先讓業者自律，自律了以後，下一階段再看要怎麼辦。我們上次詢答的過程應該到這裡吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：為了推動業者自律，我們從2023年就開始喊著要指導他們成立公會，現在2024年10月都快結束了，公會成立了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們在6月的時候，因為現在P2P，他們……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你先給大家一個答案，再來講理由，現在公會成立起來了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：現在還沒有，理由是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是因為這些業者分成兩派，都想各自成立一個公會，但是依據內政部的法律，他們不可以成立兩個公會，所以內政部出來協調，6月協調一次失敗，8月再開一次會也失敗，現在要請政委出面來做協調。金管會一再的push這件事情，希望能夠……"],["黃委員國昌：我們這樣講好了，現在這兩派業者兩邊都是好人；還是一邊比較好，一邊比較不好；狗咬狗一嘴毛，還是兩邊都不好？老實跟主委講，我一點都不在意，我在意的是你們說要推自律，自律的前提就是要成立公會，成立公會這件事情，從去年搞到現在，搞了一年多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分，我跟內政部、法務部他們做了協調，他們會請政委趕快出來協調這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在有點搞不太懂，臺灣不是法治國家嗎？依法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦，怎麼會搞到由政委出來喬兩派的業者，這不是很怪的事嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個部分我們確實也在努力，我們也想趕快。成立公會是一個問題，我們另外一個想法是，未來要怎麼樣去納管這個在P2P上做融資的活動，我們接下來要去想……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？你剛剛終於講到一句話引起我的注意，你說將來要納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：P2P嘛！什麼時候要開始做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員有提到……"],["黃委員國昌：因為好不容易聽到從自律邁向納管，針對自律這個部分，我跟主委交換一下我的觀察，自律講了半天，搞了一年，全部都是空包彈！我這樣講好了，如果今天這兩派業者，連要怎麼成立公會，都沒有辦法形成共識，主委認為放任這些業者自律，會達到自律的效果嗎？連要怎麼成立公會，都可以搞到今天這個樣子，讓公會都沒辦法成立，這種狀況讓他們自律，會有自律的效果嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實在這方面，我們還要請各部會趕快努力；如果已經影響到金融消費的安定的話，我們已經開始……"],["黃委員國昌：不是早就影響到金融消費的安定了嗎？所以你納管需要多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會朝向金融消費者保護法第三條的規定來處理這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：我最後講一件事，我得到的消息是，今年8月開會的時候，法務部對你們這種用「喬」的方式有意見，所以法務部拒絕派代表與會。法務部拒絕派代表與會，就沒有辦法選出來，這是我了解到的資訊，我覺得這真的是非常可笑的事情！要仰賴業者自律，業者沒辦法自律，結果搞了半天，竟然要用喬的方式，喬喬看要怎麼處理，結果法務部對於喬的這個方式根本不想背書，人家連代表都不派去，讓你會開不成。我看會議紀錄上寫著會後要如實呈報行政院，所以應該是呈報了以後，行政院現在找一個政委出來喬就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：希望透過跨部會來協調，不是……"],["黃委員國昌：因為主席站起來了，我最後只講一句話，按照這樣的發展狀況，主委應該可以深深的感受到，要求這些業者自律是緣木求魚啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是其中方法之一。"],["黃委員國昌：要求業者自律是緣木求魚！都搞了一年多了。金管會如果還繼續放任這樣下去的話，我們希望不要再有下一個悲劇。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然也希望不要有任何悲劇……"],["黃委員國昌：要不然等到要檢討責任的時候，大家又開始進行國家足球隊的踢皮球大賽。謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員，謝謝主委。接著請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156146","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156146","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b0b60e69364073c40acf2ea2eceb6ef265966be1ac5b6e0f976d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:28:35 - 12:41:25","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:28:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:41:25+08:00","duration":770,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.27971875,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.44846875,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.51596875,"end":1.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.54971875,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.6003437500000002,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.93784375,"end":1.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.95471875,"end":4.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.96221875,"end":8.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.856593750000002,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.852218750000002,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.140968750000003,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.99596875,"end":67.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.603468750000005,"end":65.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.75034375,"end":73.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.30659375,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.80846875,"end":76.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.64346875000001,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.13909375,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.47659375,"end":93.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.50159375000001,"end":98.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.58096875000001,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.95221875,"end":101.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.23034375,"end":109.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.25971875,"end":102.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.03909375,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.22471875000001,"end":110.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.59159375,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.40159375,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.69659375,"end":116.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.74721875,"end":115.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.63284375,"end":127.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.70284375,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.13284375,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.14096875,"end":136.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.95471875,"end":139.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.41409375,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.83159375,"end":142.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.44596875000002,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.91409375,"end":184.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.11221875,"end":186.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.38159375,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.49909375000001,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.13596875000002,"end":193.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.90784375,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.71159375000002,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.82096875000002,"end":210.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.98534375000003,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.33534375000002,"end":213.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.97221875000002,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.39784375000002,"end":218.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.32596875000002,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.96721875,"end":222.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.40159375000002,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.00471875000002,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.69659375,"end":235.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.20096875000002,"end":240.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.83346875,"end":238.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.73596875,"end":246.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.79409375,"end":247.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.26659375000003,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.27034375000002,"end":268.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.64096875,"end":255.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.30534375,"end":270.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.44409375000004,"end":274.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.77284375,"end":276.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.73034375000003,"end":277.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.33346875,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.39221875000004,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.23596875000004,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.02909375,"end":283.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.42909375,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.46221875000003,"end":292.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.74471875,"end":294.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.60096875,"end":300.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.38909375000003,"end":302.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.44784375,"end":303.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.94971875000005,"end":304.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.94534375,"end":306.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.25721875,"end":307.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.96159375,"end":309.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.73784375,"end":311.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.26096875,"end":312.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.55159375,"end":315.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.99846875000003,"end":319.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.09909375,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.15784375000004,"end":325.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.20784375,"end":330.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.66284375000004,"end":332.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.65409375,"end":333.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.07159375000003,"end":336.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.94034375,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.59784375000004,"end":344.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.95596875,"end":345.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.08659375,"end":354.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.74346875000003,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.79284375000003,"end":362.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.01534375,"end":383.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.19096875,"end":383.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.44784375,"end":397.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.84721875,"end":393.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.97721875,"end":397.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.99409375000005,"end":406.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.48346875000004,"end":400.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.30159375000005,"end":402.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.98846875000004,"end":409.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.73909375000005,"end":412.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.04659375,"end":418.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.67471875,"end":417.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.83909375,"end":422.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.85159375,"end":421.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.05784375,"end":435.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.82784375000006,"end":437.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.46471875000003,"end":438.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.66284375000004,"end":439.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.30409375000005,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.04221875,"end":441.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.35784375000003,"end":446.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.72909375,"end":446.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.23346875000004,"end":526.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.9865937500001,"end":549.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.7847187500001,"end":550.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.29096875,"end":554.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.9697187500001,"end":555.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.3915937500001,"end":583.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.10409375,"end":558.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.03721875,"end":593.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.3615937500001,"end":584.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.26846875,"end":586.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.1709687499999,"end":589.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.69346875,"end":597.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.49034375,"end":601.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.8484687499999,"end":609.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.8647187500001,"end":605.2022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.5222187500001,"end":610.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.6697187500001,"end":612.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.15909375,"end":613.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.7409687500001,"end":624.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.2665937500001,"end":642.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.1015937500001,"end":629.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.25971875,"end":651.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.39034375,"end":643.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.7822187500001,"end":648.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.4697187500001,"end":648.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.39784375,"end":649.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.96284375,"end":659.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.47721875,"end":654.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.8859687500001,"end":663.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.1340937500001,"end":667.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.1084687500002,"end":665.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.51721875,"end":679.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.90346875,"end":689.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.92034375,"end":681.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.36221875,"end":688.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.5772187500002,"end":692.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.68221875,"end":726.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.5165937500001,"end":739.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.66659375,"end":768.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.4897187500001,"end":763.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.5065937500001,"end":764.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.79721875,"end":767.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.9109687499999,"end":768.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.3959687500001,"end":769.9697187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.329,"end":24.234,"text":"請副部長跟中科院我們一起楊委員好部長好我們就針對於無人機的這個部分在我們這個今年8月底的時候我們首度總共是70億的新台幣大概是2.3億的這個美元的那麼分別在"},{"start":25.214,"end":27.657,"text":"這也是臺灣軍方首度向民間發出的軍用商規無人機的標售案"},{"start":46.616,"end":66.938,"text":"那當然從開始到決標歷經了兩年那換句話說我們也預估到2028年的時候3000多架的這個要由民間的軍規無人機進入到我們的部隊服役是不是啊沒有錯就照這個數字會達成成功嗎而且這6型無人機都已經全部都決標了"},{"start":68.5,"end":89.438,"text":"對,所以我們也好不容易在這兩年內去完成這樣的事件這樣的事情那但是在中科院為什麼我們在這十來年都是由中科院這邊來研製所以我首先要請教中科院在這十來年的研製當中我們無人機有多少有加入你的部隊當中"},{"start":91.229,"end":108.101,"text":"有嗎目前國軍正在使用的無人機除了剛講的這個正在採購軍用傷灰無人機之外其他大部分都是向中科院採購的這是中科院採購嗎那所以是老祖庫了而且是國家的資產嘛非常的棒那為什麼不續產呢"},{"start":110.48,"end":139.372,"text":"為什麼呢那為什麼明年不要呢為什麼要預算排擠呢這也就是為什麼副部長在這裡部長剛好離開我要問部長我們自己有這麼好的早做晚做都要做為什麼明年不給預算中科院到底犯了什麼錯啊為什麼不給培養了這麼好的人才做出了這樣的成績為什麼不給原因是什麼副部長"},{"start":140.838,"end":157.416,"text":"報告委員 之前我想顧部長包含詹威斯司長因為現在的我們中科院的院長就是原來的詹威斯司長所以在整個一個包含我們國內的採購和軍購這一部分的一個整體預算的支出部分我們有一些相關的一個優先順序"},{"start":159.858,"end":160.138,"text":"為什麼要未來呢?"},{"start":182.414,"end":206.335,"text":"為什麼要未來呢?一個國家如果沒有安全無人機目前已經是自我防備重要的選項嘛,是不是?就陳如你剛才說的,它的耗損也非常的大那到底量夠不夠?你沒有量根本什麼都不用講了國人要的是一個安全,尤其我們自己研發自己可以產"},{"start":207.962,"end":235.062,"text":"為什麼預算會如此的安排呢?為什麼?中科院有出什麼錯嗎?中科院沒有錯,中科院研發人員都也盡了很多的心力那為什麼呢?很多的心力,你不讓他繼續,是什麼邏輯啊?報告委員,這些案子都是在持續當中的,也跟委員報告就是有關我們希望後續的這個案,包括日元二期這個整個無人機的這個整個性能,各方面希望能夠再做得更好"},{"start":235.502,"end":247.913,"text":"這個就是為什麼預算要從易很重要你把項目去理清楚該當要繼續要讓它繼續為什麼我們自己有能力我們都一直在鼓勵鼓勵國機國造為什麼我們一直在鼓勵"},{"start":252.216,"end":270.799,"text":"我們的政府政策也是如此嘛對不對但是我們還要跟世界接軌農耗要趕快進來我們的農耗不是做白做工農耗要進來這樣子我們才能夠自力更生啊那為什麼都點頭為什麼會如此的安排這個政府太奇怪了吧"},{"start":272.523,"end":290.144,"text":"你讓中科院的人才他們會傷心耶怎麼會如此呢?部長趕快去盤點趕快去盤點現在預算重議趕快去盤點沒有理由讓他們空一年啦剛剛中科院院長還講的非常的客氣"},{"start":291.545,"end":299.111,"text":"我們希望115年114年就可以繼續為什麼要115年115年可以答應嗎為什麼要中間斷層這個邏輯太奇怪了你們去盤點不能如此的對待國人對不對副部長趕快去盤點"},{"start":313.758,"end":324.104,"text":"接下來本席要請問我們的軍規、山規這些無人機我們也要請教也就是我們的作戰規劃"},{"start":326.263,"end":344.268,"text":"你的無人機的作戰規劃你的操作手冊你要怎麼樣培訓跟訓練還有他們訓練的一個頻率因為軍用三規無人機使用它呢受期五年內五年之後你怎麼處理請說明"},{"start":346.121,"end":361.91,"text":"跟委員報告有關無人機的整體的訓練都在我們聯合作戰需求的發展過程當中都列為一個非常重要的要件我特別跟委員報告我們陸軍在7月1號在我們嘉義中莊就成立了第一所無人機訓練中心"},{"start":363.771,"end":371.014,"text":"對 那我們要成立無人機訓練中心是配合我們的裝備的這個獲得因為我們從明年開始各項無人機會陸續的這個協調所以包含這個整個人員的編制人員的訓練 裝備還有包含準則的這個編寫還有人員的訓練現在都已經積極在陸力的推動當中嘛這個非常重要 這就是本期啊是 我們已經在做了"},{"start":383.519,"end":386.001,"text":"那就剛剛本席所說的受期五年之後呢你後續怎麼處理啊"},{"start":413.723,"end":423.228,"text":"這個跟委員報告所有的武器裝備都有全售期管理的一個相關的一個計畫所以這是五年對所以說對於接下來我們怎麼接續對所以除了我們在建案投資之後除了這個裝備後續的一個裝備後期的維修之外是我們也會投入相關的一個這個作為費啊讓這個整個裝備能夠延續下去它不是售期過了以後這個裝備就不管了"},{"start":435.974,"end":458.729,"text":"這要講清楚,對,這個非常之重要,因為都是人民的納稅錢當然你五年之後溯起到,你往後要怎麼去處置,這個非常重要怎麼去訓練,怎麼去委管,這些非常重要所以希望你們在這個部分呢,怎麼樣的培訓,怎麼樣的培養,他的訓練頻率我想這個濃厚是比什麼都還重要"},{"start":459.389,"end":460.43,"text":"接下來本席再請教"},{"start":476.24,"end":494.729,"text":"21號我們公布的9.88億的第三次招標公告因為在兩次前通通沒有人第三次你們再公告了也就無人機的反制系統那在這樣的一個情況之下這些反制系統要部署在我們非常重要的國防的這個防衛要地"},{"start":497.31,"end":524.776,"text":"因為人民希望要能夠安全那所以在這樣子反制的150公斤以下的一二級的無人機呢他要具備哪些呢他必須要具備被動的監測他要主動的去搜索還有一個電子反制的能量的能力那他又要要求也就是必須要易於操作是不是啊要要求易於操作還有跟干擾牆"},{"start":527.257,"end":548.716,"text":"清兵器這些都必須要有無人機的一個反制能力所以本期要請教副部長我們目前投票的廠商產品跟軍方的要求有沒有落差有沒有吻合在你第三次公告因為一二次沒有有人會怕你會不會把項目沒有那麼吻合"},{"start":551.127,"end":573.996,"text":"在陸軍參謀黨沒有報告之前我先跟委員報告反制無人機系統對我們來講是非常重要的一個系統所以我們在訂立反制無人機系統的時候對於它這個規格性能功性能部分做了嚴格的一個界定那為了讓這個整個的無人機的反制系統能夠有效在戰場上運用所以我們還訂立了相關的評審委員我們邀請了這個"},{"start":575.276,"end":579.479,"text":"本期要請教因為一二次沒成第三次我們終於公告21號那請問我們的標準是不是依照您所說的這一些的標準在執行之"},{"start":598.43,"end":623.931,"text":"我跟委員報告標準從來沒有改變過標準沒有改變過我們也希望能夠去完成但是我們在預算的執行方面你剩下一年一個月因為延宕下來一年一個月在這樣的情況之下如果就算能夠如期的決標那本席要請教一個重點會不會影響到你整個裝備交付部隊的期程"},{"start":626.082,"end":640.669,"text":"跟委員報告有關在這個整個有關跟委員報告有關預算這一部分我也特別在之前我也找我們採購室都去研究過了因為這個無人機反制系統是國內這個第一次我們來做一個產制我們當然要給他時間"},{"start":641.849,"end":642.449,"text":"本席要請問副部長的是說"},{"start":668.565,"end":679.614,"text":"你會不會影響到你的裝備交付的期程如果會影響到你國防部是不是有預計要怎麼做的配套措施"},{"start":681.616,"end":710.616,"text":"我們這部分會再做一個整體的考量當然我們還是希望這些參與投標的廠商能夠繼續努力他們也真的很努力部部長 這個不是大家努力而是我們實質上面對的這個問題你已經延宕了你原本的預算期程你有你的KPI的指標你的裝備期程已經慢了那你國防部當然大家趕快去努力那你國防部這邊有什麼配套來協助啊"},{"start":710.956,"end":711.096,"text":"本席要問的是這個"},{"start":726.687,"end":753.795,"text":"有關其他這個細部的配套的方案,報告委員因為現在還在案子招標當中,我這邊不適合來跟你再做進一步的報告但我們回去研究完以後,我們再容我們到委員辦公室再跟你再做詳細的說明這個不是不適合,這也沒有什麼秘密本席再給你一個功課,也就是我們鼓勵希望能夠得標完成但是即使到這個時間得標完成,你的裝備設置已經延大"},{"start":754.215,"end":754.235,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時28分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請副部長。"],["主席：請副部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：和中科院一起。"],["徐副部長衍璞：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。針對無人機這個部分，在今年8月底的時候，我們首度總共是70億新臺幣，大概是2.3億美元，分別有六種款型得標，這也整個帶動我們國內包括長榮航太等四家公司，這也是臺灣軍方首度向民間發出軍用商規無人機的標售案，當然，從開始到決標歷經了兩年；換句話說，我們預估到2028年的時候，三千多架民間的軍規無人機要進入到我們部隊服役，是不是？就是照這個數字，會達陣成功嘛！"],["徐副部長衍璞：沒有錯，而且這六型無人機都已經全部決標了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我們也好不容易在這兩年內完成這樣的事。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是這十來年都是由中科院這邊研製，我首先要請教，中科院在這十來年研製的無人機當中有多少加入你的部隊當中？有嗎？"],["李院長世強：目前國軍正在使用的無人機，除了剛剛講的正在採購的軍用商規無人機之外，其他大部分都是向中科院採購的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都是向中科院採購嘛！"],["李院長世強：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以是老主顧了，而且是國家的資產嘛！非常的棒，那為什麼不續產呢？"],["李院長世強：報告，有續產。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼呢？"],["李院長世強：因為我們有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼明年不要呢？"],["李院長世強：明年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼要預算排擠呢？副部長在這裡，部長剛好離開，我要問部長，我們自己有這麼好的，早做晚做都要做，為什麼明年不給預算？中科院到底犯了什麼錯啊？為什麼不給？培養了這麼好的人才，做出了這樣的成績，為什麼不給？原因是什麼？副部長。"],["徐副部長衍璞：報告委員，剛才我想……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：原因是什麼？"],["徐副部長衍璞：之前顧部長，包含戰規司司長，因為現在我們中科院院長就是原來的戰規司司長，所以在整個包含國內採購和軍購這部分整體預算支出部分，我們有一些相關的優先順序，所以在114（明）年，這部分包含銳鳶二型、還有騰雲，剛才中科院李院長有跟委員報告過了，現在我們所研發的包含銳鳶二型、包含騰雲這些無人機，未來都一定會儘快量產，是沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼要未來呢？"],["徐副部長衍璞：我們希望如果說最快的話，115年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼要未來呢？一個國家如果沒有安全，無人機目前已經是自我防備重要的選項嘛！是不是？"],["徐副部長衍璞：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就誠如你剛才說的，它的耗損也非常大，到底量夠不夠？沒有量根本什麼都不用講了，國人要的是一個安全，尤其我們自己研發、自己可以產，為什麼預算會如此的安排呢？為什麼？中科院有出什麼錯嗎？"],["徐副部長衍璞：中科院沒有錯，中科院研發人員也盡了很多心力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼呢？很多的心力，但你不讓他們繼續，是什麼邏輯啊？"],["徐副部長衍璞：報告委員，這些案子都是在持續當中，也跟委員報告，後續包含銳鳶二型，整個無人機的性能等各方面希望能夠再做得更好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個就是為什麼預算要重議，很重要！你把項目去釐清楚，該當要繼續要讓它繼續！我們自己有能力，我們都一直在鼓勵！"],["徐副部長衍璞：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？鼓勵國機國造，我們一直在鼓勵，我們的政府政策也是如此嘛！對不對？"],["徐副部長衍璞：沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：甚至我們還要跟世界接軌，know how要趕快進來，我們的know how不是白做工，know how要進來，這樣子我們才能夠自力更生啊！都點頭，那為什麼會如此的安排？這個政府太奇怪了吧！你會讓中科院的人才傷心欸！怎麼會如此呢？副部長，趕快去盤點，趕快去盤點，趁著現在預算重議，趕快去盤點，沒有理由讓他們空一年啦！剛剛中科院院長還講得非常的客氣：我們希望115年。114年就可以繼續了，為什麼要115年？115年可以答應嗎？為什麼中間要有斷層？這個邏輯太奇怪了，你們去盤點，不能如此的對待國人，對不對？副部長。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是，感謝委員指導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：趕快去盤點。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請問，關於軍用商規無人機的作戰規劃，你的無人機作戰規劃、操作手冊，你要怎麼樣培訓跟訓練？還有他們訓練的頻率，因為軍用商規無人機使用壽期5年，5年之後你怎麼處理？請說明。"],["徐副部長衍璞：跟委員報告，有關無人機整體的訓練，都在我們聯合作戰需求的發展過程當中，都列為一個非常重要的要件，我特別也跟委員報告，我們陸軍在7月1號，在嘉義中庄成立了第一所無人機訓練中心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["徐副部長衍璞：我們要成立無人機訓練中心是配合我們的裝備獲得，因為我們從明年開始，各項無人機會陸續解繳，所以包含整個人員的編制、人員的訓練、裝備，還有包含準則的編寫，還有人員的訓練，現在都已經積極戮力的推動當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個非常重要，這就是本席要告訴你的。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是，我們已經在做了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們有了這個基地，我們要怎麼樣去讓它產出，產出之後，執行者所有的訓練頻率、整個操作手冊、訓練，這是非常的重要。"],["徐副部長衍璞：報告委員，我也都親自去看過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你們現在在盤點……"],["徐副部長衍璞：很積極，很積極，所以如果有機會的話，我們也歡迎委員給我們再做一個指導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就剛剛本席所說的壽期5年之後，你後續怎麼處理啊？"],["徐副部長衍璞：跟委員報告，所有武器裝備都有全壽期管理的相關計畫。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，這是5年？"],["徐副部長衍璞：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那怎麼辦呢？接下來，我們怎麼接續？"],["徐副部長衍璞：對，除了我們在建案投資之後，除了裝備後勤後續維修之外，我們也會投入相關的作維費，讓整個裝備能夠延續下去，它不是壽期過了以後，這個裝備就不管了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這要講清楚，對，這個非常的重要。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為都是人民的納稅錢。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是，那當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，5年之後壽期到，往後要怎麼處置，這個非常重要。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼去訓練、怎麼去維管，這些非常重要。所以本席也希望你們在這個部分怎麼樣的培訓、怎麼樣的培養、它的訓練頻率，我想這個know how是比什麼都還重要，有了產出之後，這些就最重要的！以及包括5年壽期後我們要怎麼樣繼續，這些都非常重要，也是國人非常期待的，所以一定要加油，一定要加油！","接下來本席再請教，21號公布的9.88億第三次招標公告，因為在兩次前通通沒有人，第三次你們再次公告了無人機反制系統招標作業，在這樣一個情況之下，這些反制系統要部署在我們非常重要的國防防衛要地，因為人民希望要能夠安全，而反制150公斤以下的一、二級無人機要具備哪些呢？它必須要具備被動監測，也要主動搜索，還要有電子反制能力，又要要求必須易於操作，是不是？還有干擾槍、輕兵器，這些都必須是無人機要有的反制能力。所以本席要請教副部長，我們目前投標的廠商產品跟軍方的要求有沒有落差？有沒有吻合？在你第三次公告，因為一、二次沒有，有的人會怕，會不會項目沒有那麼吻合？請說明。"],["徐副部長衍璞：報告委員，在陸軍參謀長還沒有報告之前，我先跟委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：副部長請說。"],["徐副部長衍璞：反制無人機這個系統，對我們來講是一個非常重要的一個系統。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["徐副部長衍璞：所以，我們在訂定反制無人機系統的時候，對於它的規格、性能部分做了一個嚴格的界定，為了讓整個無人機的反制系統能夠有效在戰場上運用，所以我們還訂定了相關的評審委員，我們邀請了包含學界組成一個非常嚴謹的委員會，針對所提出的這部分做一個徹底……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，非常嚴謹的！所以，副部長，本席要請教，因為一、二次沒成，第三次我們在21號終於公告，請問我們的標準是不是依照您所說的這一些標準在執行之？"],["徐副部長衍璞：我跟委員報告，標準從來沒有改變過。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，標準沒有改變過，我們也希望能夠去完成，但是我們在預算執行方面，你剩下1年1個月，因為延宕下來……"],["徐副部長衍璞：我們會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在這樣的情況之下，如果就算能夠如期決標，本席要請教一個重點，會不會影響到整個裝備交付部隊的期程？你要怎樣去應對？"],["徐副部長衍璞：跟委員報告，有關預算這部分，我也特別找採購室研究過了，因為這個無人機反制系統是國內第一次產製，我們當然要給它時間，我們對於……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你當然要給它時間，但是當時預算要執行的時候也有一個KPI，本席實質跟你討論，你現在剩下1年1個月，我們希望真的就標出去。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是即使標出去也已經延宕，會不會影響到……"],["徐副部長衍璞：我們會辦理保留，我們也會顧及到整個招標程序。所以這部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：招標程序依法去辦。本席要請問副部長的是，會不會影響到你的裝備交付期程，如果會影響到，你國防部是不是有預計要怎麼做的配套措施？請說明。"],["徐副部長衍璞：報告委員，這部分我們會再做整體考量，當然我們還是希望這些參與投標的廠商能夠繼續努力，他們也真的很努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：副部長，這個不是大家努力，而是我們實質上面對的這個問題，你已經延宕了，你原本的預算、期程，你有你的KPI指標，你的裝備期程已經慢了，當然大家要趕快去努力，但你國防部這邊有什麼配套來協助啊？這才是人民要聽的啊！才不會緊張啊！原本你告訴我，你可以怎麼樣保護我，現在期程慢了，你保護不了我，沒有這些裝備了，那你還可以怎麼樣有相關的配套來協助啊？本席要問的是這個。"],["徐副部長衍璞：有關其他細部配套方案，報告委員，因為現在案子還在招標當中，我這邊不適合跟你再做進一步的報告，但我們回去研究完以後，容我們到委員辦公室再跟您做詳細說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個不是不適合，這也沒有什麼秘密，本席再給你一個功課，我們鼓勵希望能夠得標完成，但是即使照這個時間得標完成，你的裝備設置已經延宕，對不對？你點頭了，已經延宕，你應該要去考慮，我的裝備設置延宕的時候，那我還可以有什麼方式去保護人民、去協助部隊，這是我們要聽的，好不好？"],["徐副部長衍璞：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你趕快去研討。"],["徐副部長衍璞：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，副部長請回。","林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","接下來我們請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},{"id":"156145","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156145","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bebd33046360522566b4c0e929d5f577f5966be1ac5b6e0f9142f2a7614d0e9965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:31:02 - 12:39:07","影片長度":"00:08:05","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:31:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:39:07+08:00","duration":485,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":5.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.632843750000003,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.349718750000001,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.429718750000003,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.86721875,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.360343750000002,"end":25.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.11971875,"end":35.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.00846875,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.460968750000006,"end":59.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.93721875000001,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.33721875,"end":149.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.06659375,"end":152.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.69471875000002,"end":155.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.60159375,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.43346875,"end":184.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.59284375000001,"end":197.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.50221875000003,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.53784375,"end":213.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.95534375000003,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.35596875000002,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.71409375000002,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.17284375000003,"end":260.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.61909375,"end":260.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.00284375,"end":261.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.13784375,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.91659375,"end":285.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.84721875,"end":285.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.62346875000003,"end":298.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.80471875,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.73534375,"end":327.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.08971875000003,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.13596875,"end":358.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.02596875,"end":329.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.25346875,"end":331.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.82971875000004,"end":343.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.36409375,"end":352.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.46534375000005,"end":352.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.60784375000003,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.12221875,"end":362.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.53971875,"end":376.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.30534375,"end":379.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.51159375000003,"end":386.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.60346875000005,"end":397.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.53846875000005,"end":400.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.26784375000005,"end":415.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.95346875,"end":421.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.24846875000003,"end":417.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.26034375,"end":426.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.23034375000003,"end":427.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.27221875000004,"end":427.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.28909375,"end":432.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.95909375,"end":445.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.51596875,"end":434.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.36284375,"end":441.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.88534375,"end":464.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.93596875000003,"end":446.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.37284375,"end":458.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.56596875,"end":479.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.67909375000005,"end":469.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.94909375000003,"end":469.99971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.69034375,"end":482.23409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.82471875000005,"end":484.07346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.189,"end":10.517,"text":"謝謝主席。這邊有請教育部司長嗎?司長好。今天次長沒有來。"},{"start":26.386,"end":37.592,"text":"沒關係不過我這邊待會會有一些意見可能希望司長可以待會去反映給部長還有次長知道我覺得今天開衛環委員會今天開這個"},{"start":38.752,"end":53.839,"text":"而中世代政策促進法的公聽會這是非常有意義的因為在同時間在經委會那裡則是談少子化的議題所以我們同一天一方一個委員會談少子化然後我們這裡則是談壯世代"},{"start":57.461,"end":70.937,"text":"從這次的這個會議的安排裡面可以反映出我們現在社會結構的確是在改變。少子化的問題那麼它會帶來社會的影響而我們所看到的這個高齡化的問題其實同樣的也會帶來這個社會的影響以及這個社會的未來的發展也要改變。"},{"start":76.323,"end":106.323,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":106.663,"end":106.703,"text":"﹚翁曉玲"},{"start":124.616,"end":153.217,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":153.752,"end":153.892,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":178.456,"end":197.551,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":197.651,"end":225.399,"text":"那麼我們知道其實教育部他過去有推動一些高齡化的這些教育措施包含設置樂齡學習中心啊然後在大學裡面也推動所謂樂齡大學計畫那麼但是事實上成果不是很好也就是教育部可能給的資源也不夠多然後呢另外一方面呢也沒有說很積極的在promote這一塊所以我這邊想聽聽看就是司長您的看法"},{"start":226.949,"end":250.236,"text":"謝謝委員大概面對這個少子女化跟高齡化大概特別是像之前就是這個委員在談到這個壯世代的問題我們大概今年底我們就會有一個大概針對55歲以上的一些這些年齡的這些族群我們就會讓嘗試讓他們再進行類似植物的再設計還有讓"},{"start":252.037,"end":257.7,"text":"市長,因為我剛剛聽到您的這個key point 就是你是希望未來讓他們能夠再投入職場可是本席正好有個另外的想法其實應該要鼓勵他們重返學校"},{"start":273.449,"end":297.863,"text":"對在我們的壯世代的促進法草案的第9條裡面其實也有鼓勵大家未來都要能夠開發我們的開啟我們的人生第三人生大學那麼如果說從這個角度來講的話那教育部其實應該就要開始去規劃要去設計一些誘因如何能夠讓鼓勵壯世代重返校園"},{"start":299.123,"end":299.244,"text":"〔記者發言〕"},{"start":322.944,"end":352.534,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":352.714,"end":376.232,"text":"所以這裡我本席也建議教育部應該再去積極地研習一些更多可以讓鼓勵這些壯世代重返校園讀書或是接受一些教育的一些措施方案比如說我們可以比照像是一些弱勢族群或者其他的鼓勵"},{"start":377.193,"end":400.23,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":401.671,"end":425.341,"text":"市長,其實這邊都是我們針對有需要協助的這些民眾我們都會來考慮來協助那大概我們目前有在規劃當中就是會來準備發放的是針對有需要來發放終身學習卷我覺得不要說是針對有需要而是你現在措施這個定下去之後它就應該普及化這樣子才會產生誘因嘛對不對然後呢是未來大家補書"},{"start":427.363,"end":428.405,"text":"而就可以有學費減免,因為他會帶來其他不同的效益"},{"start":433.041,"end":458.213,"text":"是,那同時呢如果說我們可以多鼓勵他們以後在申請大學的時候也有類似特殊選才或是有些特殊的真實方法不要說跟著大家高中生一起去搶名額而是有另外的特殊的申請管道那我相信一定會有很多的壯世代的民眾會很樂意的再重返校園那麼這個其實對於提升壯世代的身心健康是有幫助的"},{"start":458.593,"end":458.613,"text":"謝謝委員﹗謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":934,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時31分）謝謝主席。有請教育部司長。"],["梁司長學政：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：司長好。今天次長沒有來？"],["梁司長學政：沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，沒關係，不過我這邊待會有些意見希望司長可以帶回去反映給部長和次長知道。"],["梁司長學政：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得今天開衛環委員會討論「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法」公聽會是非常有意義的，因為同時間經濟委員會那裡是談少子化的議題，所以我們同一天一個委員會談少子化，我們這裡則是談壯世代。從這次這個會議的安排可以反映出，我們現在社會結構的確是在改變。少子化的問題會帶來社會的影響，而我們所看到的高齡化問題，其實同樣也會帶來社會的影響，以及整個社會未來的發展也要改變。本席之前因為在清大教書，所以我特別重視有關於高教的問題，面對少子化的部分，教育系統看起來現在已經出現嚴重衝擊，那就是我們看到很多學校已經退場，或者現在教育部也鼓勵大專院校彼此之間合併，有些學校內部也在做組織方面的收編、縮編，還有一個問題就是教育資源也出現有過剩或浪費的情況，因為學生變少了，整個教育的品質出現兩極化，師資結構也會出現失衡的狀況，我們現在看到有不少流浪教授失業，過去是流浪教師，早在幾年前吧，就已經開始出現了一堆的流浪教師，很多國外留學回來的博士也找不到工作，因此少子化的問題其實已經衝擊到整個高教。現在我們正好推動壯世代政策，我倒是覺得對於教育體系來講，它可能會是個契機，怎麼說呢？我們現在可以鼓勵更多壯世代民眾，有機會可以再加入我們整個教育系統，尤其是大學的教育體系，我們中國人不是說一句話：活到老、學到老！壯世代可能從年齡45歲或55歲到他退休，這中間體力還很好的這段時間，其實是可以做更多事情，基本上不僅可以提升這些壯世代民眾的社會參與以及他的身心健康，同時也可以促進整個學校環境有多元發展，我個人認為這都是非常重要的。","我們知道，教育部過去有推動一些高齡化教育措施，包含設置樂齡學習中心，然後在大學裡面也推動所謂樂齡大學計畫，但是事實上成果不是很好，也就是教育部可能給的資源也不夠多，另外一方面也沒有很積極在promote這一塊，所以我這邊想聽聽看司長您的看法。"],["梁司長學政：謝謝委員。面對少子女化跟高齡化，特別像之前吳委員談到壯世代的問題，大概今年底我們就會有一個針對55歲以上這些年齡的族群，嘗試讓他們進行類似職務再設計，還有增加一些專業的學習，讓他們可能可以再投入職場，因為整個平均餘命拉得更長。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。司長，我剛剛聽到您的key point，你是希望未來讓他們能夠再投入職場，可是本席正好有個另外的想法，其實應該要鼓勵他們重返學校，在我們壯世代促進法草案第九條，其實也有鼓勵大家未來都要能夠開啟我們的第三人生大學。如果從這個角度來講的話，教育部應該就要開始去規劃、要去設計一些誘因，如何能夠鼓勵壯世代重返校園。"],["梁司長學政：跟委員簡單報告，剛剛講的那只是第一階段，先從55歲以上開始，因為我們希望明年就開始有這樣的試辦計畫。但是我這邊有跟部長討論，部長也得到同意，接著我們也會擴充到30歲以上，現在包括職場上這些可能因為科技社會的發展，隨時都有加強他專業的可能性，所以他一定要再重新回到學校來參與。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。因為這是不同的階段，而我們今天重點是在壯世代，所以我們當然會特別想要為壯世代55歲，或是再降低一點年齡，從45歲以上這個族群的民眾，我們希望鼓勵他們能夠重返校園，或者是能夠利用他在某一段休息時間裡面，可以跟教育系統結合。","這裡本席也建議教育部應該再去積極研習更多可以鼓勵這些壯世代重返校園讀書，或是接受教育的一些措施方案，譬如說，我們可以比照弱勢族群或者其他鼓勵的教育政策，未來是不是研擬壯世代重返校園可以學費減免或是得到相應的補助？另外，如果他去讀書的話，是不是就受扶養了，因為退休以後他就必須由他的子女扶養，所以相關的教育補助費也可以抵稅？"],["梁司長學政：跟委員報告，其實針對有需要協助的這些民眾，我們都會考慮來協助，我們目前有在規劃當中的就是準備針對有需要的發放終身學習券。"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得不要說是針對有需要的，而是現在措施訂下去之後，它就應該普及化，這樣子才會產生誘因嘛！對不對？"],["梁司長學政：普及化就需要更多的預算。"],["翁委員曉玲：未來大家讀書就可以有學費減免，因為它會帶來其他不同的效益。"],["梁司長學政：謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：同時如果我們可以多鼓勵他們以後在申請大學的時候有類似特殊選才，或是有些特殊的甄試方法，不要跟著高中生一起去搶名額，而是有另外的特殊申請管道，那我相信一定會有很多壯世代民眾很樂意再重返校園，這對於提升壯世代的身心健康是有幫助的。現在因為高齡化社會，所以現在我們政府的長照支出也很多，所以從另外一個角度想，終身教育做得好，長照支出這邊就可以減少。"],["梁司長學政：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：本席在這邊提供一些建議，希望教育部能夠積極研擬有關於壯世代的學習還有教育的政策。謝謝。"],["梁司長學政：是，謝謝委員的提供，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員，謝謝司長。","發言太踴躍了，所以我們在王正旭委員質詢完畢後休息15分鐘，我們請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156144","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156144","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b5b75bc411f49046e6b4c0e929d5f577f5966be1ac5b6e0f957ff7adbaa11be625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"12:23:32 - 12:30:56","影片長度":"00:07:24","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:23:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:30:56+08:00","duration":444,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.44409375,"end":5.363468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.81909375,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.27034375,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.04596875,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.78346875,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.09034375,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.119718750000004,"end":53.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.13659375,"end":53.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.15346875,"end":53.305343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.625968750000006,"end":55.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.16159375,"end":57.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.604093750000004,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.09721875,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.03346875,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.08409375000001,"end":65.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.82596875,"end":73.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.63971875,"end":75.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.90096875,"end":79.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.47846875,"end":82.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.41471875,"end":90.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.97909375,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.51096875,"end":115.00034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.57409375,"end":117.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.56534375000001,"end":132.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.74034375000002,"end":137.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.17034375,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.05159375,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.04659375,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.68346875,"end":147.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.97409375,"end":152.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.49659375000002,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.55534375000002,"end":156.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.52971875,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.74471875,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.25471875000002,"end":162.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.56659375,"end":164.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.38909375,"end":174.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.58596875,"end":175.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.35784375,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.46721875,"end":182.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.70284375,"end":188.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.89596875,"end":190.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.63409375,"end":214.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.16534375,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.24534375000002,"end":194.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.49534375000002,"end":236.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.88409375,"end":240.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.34346875000003,"end":241.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.06909375,"end":244.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.83221875,"end":253.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.41846875000002,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.61659375000002,"end":249.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.66221875000002,"end":284.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.26846875,"end":289.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.30221875,"end":309.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.90221875000003,"end":321.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.43659375000004,"end":322.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.87096875000003,"end":325.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.30096875000004,"end":324.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.70159375000003,"end":333.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.71721875000003,"end":335.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.97846875000005,"end":346.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.98159375,"end":343.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.99784375,"end":403.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.59784375000004,"end":396.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.11971875,"end":416.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.47659375,"end":443.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.01471875000004,"end":428.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.12846875,"end":429.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.17909375000005,"end":429.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.19596875,"end":430.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.90784375000004,"end":440.02971875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.887,"end":4.772,"text":"好謝謝主席然後請先請行政院的蘇處長蘇處長"},{"start":12.899,"end":36.99,"text":"蘇組長,我先請教,其實現在包括少子化包括高齡的社會都來臨,其實這是台灣嚴肅要面對的問題,其實很多國家都在處理這個問題,剛剛我在經濟委員會剛剛談了一下少子化的問題,我認為這個是確實需要重視,那當然高齡化是另外一個問題,怎麼樣讓這些的高齡的他有能力的也願意再繼續的能夠怎麼,我覺得確實是一個課題,"},{"start":38.351,"end":57.257,"text":"我首先要回來講這些事情其實行政院也在做各位也在做了今天要過這樣的就是要來審這樣的一個法的時候我先問一下他這個立法體力上面我看起來是比較特殊一點處長怎麼看我們也是解的第一個就是說他算是什麼樣的法"},{"start":58.643,"end":75.862,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":75.962,"end":105.116,"text":"所以這個部分所以定義壯世代剛才也之前也提了這個國際上是沒有對壯世代有一個定義所以這個部分來講確實我們對整部法認為說用法規範來講壯世代這個相關的作用我覺得它反倒比較有點像基本法的概念就是應該要怎樣應該怎樣但是它其實沒有賦予比如說德設立基金會包括我認為它看起來反而比較像基本法的精神反倒不像所謂的作用法或者其他 我覺得反而不像啦"},{"start":105.456,"end":113.006,"text":"所以我覺得也許在將來在討論的時候可以再慎重思考一下啦他的體力上那再來我想請教啦他的主管機關到底是誰"},{"start":114.637,"end":114.817,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":144.48,"end":144.94,"text":"﹚審查委員﹚"},{"start":165.436,"end":190.605,"text":"那另外一個就是說實務上我們有關於壯世代這個部分來講因為政務委員開三次會我們10月31號院長要召開社會福利推動委員會他勞動部要做一個報告那事實上我們在組織裡面來講針對壯世代的議題已經做處理了而且院長也在負責的社會福利委員會裡面然後政務委員也負責一個專案辦公室這個組織的架構跟處理已經都有了"},{"start":190.725,"end":214.531,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":214.651,"end":243.983,"text":"行政院長跟就大概就你們幾個處而已啦其實人力上各方面其實都非常的吃緊就是說這樣子在進行這件事情到底能不能達到他的成效所以我希望在未來的公聽會或甚至在內部的討論我覺得這個要慎重在討論後面的這個體制的問題包括他的單位啦那再來我也想請教一下啦包括我也看到了他這個財政上的問題啦他得設立一個基金啊這個基金如果設立了將來由誰來管理"},{"start":245.919,"end":262.521,"text":"因為規範也不明確而且設計金的話有院長自己來管理財政紀律法裡面規定來講這個基金的設計院長管理可能就是你管理因為你是這個處的負責的對不對所以我說整個體力上非常的奇怪完全不不照我們過去所走的所以我覺得這裡面有非常多要"},{"start":262.841,"end":284.855,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":289.999,"end":291.48,"text":"部長對現在這樣的一個推動的進度滿意嗎"},{"start":310.97,"end":337.692,"text":"基本上現在其實有達到一定程度的效果啦而且這從專跑推動也來到現在增加了38萬的中高齡就業人口就大概每年大概10萬多10萬多是是是對而且都超過對大概超過10萬對但是我們在看的話其實相較於其他的包括美國日本韓國的部分其實周邊幾個好像還有很大的空間是沒錯我們相較於他們都偏低是沒有錯"},{"start":338.433,"end":344.657,"text":"部長怎麼認為我們怎麼樣可以來來我想今天這個有一個目的也是這樣他們希望能夠讓那怎麼樣讓有意願也有能力能夠怎麼來提升對我們就幾款旗下一個是行政措施獎勵啦包括像55plus就業措施獎勵婦女在就業獎勵不只針對雇主也針對勞工"},{"start":359.206,"end":383.439,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":383.599,"end":402.567,"text":"所以其實目前大概有法律面還有包括行政獎勵措施面我們希望能夠來疾管其下還有包括委員你們今年謝謝你們在制定的中小企業加薪抵稅65歲以上都還給他加薪的抵稅的優惠這樣子這個還有包括勞基法54條"},{"start":404.828,"end":423.117,"text":"我們通過了合意退休就是不限於65歲你只要勞資雙方協商就可以延後不限65歲退休這樣子我們希望部長持續的努力我看到現在我們55到59歲的也都在這次的法上想定的範圍內我們的勞參率是61相較於美國的73日本的85韓國的77都還有一段距離"},{"start":429.981,"end":430.121,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝部長、次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":888,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（12時23分）謝謝主席，先請行政院的蘇處長。"],["主席：蘇處長。"],["蘇處長永富：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：蘇處長，現在包括少子化、包括高齡社會都來臨了，這是臺灣要嚴肅面對的問題，其實很多國家都已經在處理這個問題了。剛剛我也在經濟委員會談了一下少子化的問題，我認為這個確實是需要重視，當然高齡化是另外一個問題，怎麼樣讓這些具有能力的高齡者願意再繼續就業，我認為確實也是一個課題。","首先還是要回來講，這件事情其實行政院已經在做，各部會也在做了，既然今天要來審這樣一個法，我先問一下，這個立法體例在我看來是比較特殊一點，處長怎麼看？"],["蘇處長永富：我們也是覺得，第一個就是說……"],["賴委員瑞隆：它算是什麼樣的法？"],["蘇處長永富：這個在性質上看起來是很奇怪，以作用法來講，它是一個基本法的性質或是一個執行法？而且我們一般法律都是規範人民的權利義務事項，但它規範的都是政府應辦事項，而且壯世代的定義剛剛之前也提了，在國際上並沒有壯世代的定義。因此，針對這整部法，我們認為以法的規範來講，說實在的，相關的作業……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得它反倒有點像基本法的概念，應該要怎樣、應該要怎樣，但是它的前面有賦予，譬如得設立基金會，我認為它看起來反而比較像基本法的精神，反倒不像所謂的作用法或其他，我覺得反而不像啦！因此，我覺得也許將來討論時可以針對它的體例再慎重思考一下。再來要請教，它的主管機關到底是誰，處長？"],["蘇處長永富：裡面沒有規範主管機關。"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒有規範主管機關？我看到法條上寫的是行政院設立一個辦公室，由院長擔任召集人，這樣的體例很少，我很少看到這樣的體例。"],["蘇處長永富：很少，幾乎沒有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：幾乎沒有嗎？"],["蘇處長永富：幾乎沒有。另外，要向委員報告，一般我們講關於組織的部分，因為中央行政組織基準法規定，作用法不得規範組織，而且它沒有明定這個法的主管機關是誰，但是又設一個壯世代的政策辦公室，這是一個什麼樣的辦公室？它是一個任務編組嗎？看起來像是任務編組，只是以任務編組來講，剛剛我說過中央行政組織基準法規定作用法不得規範關於組織的事項。另外一個，實務上有關於壯世代這個部分，因為政務委員已經開過3次會，10月31日院長要召開社會福利推動委員會，勞動部要做一個報告。事實上，我們的組織針對壯世代的議題已經做處理了，而且由院長負責社會福利委員會，政務委員也負責一個專案辦公室，這個組織的架構及處理已經都有了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在的運作其實已經在處理這次的事情了。"],["蘇處長永富：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是現在突然通過一個法，而且在訂定得不是那麼清楚的狀況下，又出現了包括應設立一個辦公室，而且是由院長兼任，這個在體例上也非常奇怪。"],["蘇處長永富：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括將來的幕僚或作業，我們一般通常會讓某個部會擔任重要的主責單位，但是這邊又沒有，行政院大概就是你們幾個處而已，人力各方面其實都非常吃緊，這樣進行這件事情到底能不能達到它的成效，所以我希望在未來的公聽會或甚至在內部的討論，這個都要再慎重討論後面的體制問題，包括它的單位。","再來我想請教一下，包括我們也看到財政上的問題，它得設立一個基金，如果這個基金設立之後，將來由誰來管理？"],["蘇處長永富：規劃不明確，而且設基金的話……"],["賴委員瑞隆：由院長自己來管理？"],["蘇處長永富：財政紀律法規定，基金設立的話……"],["賴委員瑞隆：院長管理可能就是由你管理，因為你是這個處的負責人，對不對？"],["蘇處長永富：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：整個體例上非常奇怪，完全不照過去我們所走的，所以我覺得這裡有非常多需要深切討論之處，立法院立法的品質要達到一定的水準，要不然會造成很多的困擾。既有線上的事情也在做的話，我認為其實應該照既有的去做，如果有不足的部分要強化，我們再看要用什麼樣的方式去強化，但是應該要把那個體例弄得更清楚，好不好？"],["蘇處長永富：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝處長。接下來請教一下何部長，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：高齡化的問題，其實大家都要面對，包括怎麼樣讓這些本身有意願的勞動力也能夠參與進來，我看到其實有很多都已經在進行當中，譬如勞動部在中高齡與高齡促進法的部分就有相當的成效，部長對現在這樣的推動進度滿意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：基本上，現在其實有達到一定程度的效果，而且從專案法推動以來到現在增加了38萬的中高齡就業人口。"],["賴委員瑞隆：每年大概是十萬多、十萬多的速度。"],["何部長佩珊：對，而且都超過，大概超過十萬。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是就我們看來，相較於其他國家，包括美國、日本、韓國，其實好像還有很大的空間。"],["何部長佩珊：是沒錯，我們相較於它們都是偏低，是沒有錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長認為我們可以怎麼樣做？我想今天這個法案的目的也是如此，怎麼樣讓有意願又有能力者參與，怎麼樣提升？"],["何部長佩珊：我們就幾管齊下，一個是行政措施獎勵，包括像55Plus就業措施獎勵、婦女再就業獎勵，不只針對雇主，也針對勞工，而且還有像是職務再設計、部分工時，這些機制的設計，我們也甚至都有獎勵，所以現在是先用鼓勵來引導。其實在年齡歧視方面，當然我們也都在中高齡法裡面訂定不得歧視，如果有歧視行為的話，雇主要罰30到150萬的罰款。所以目前大概有法律面，還有包括行政獎勵措施面，我們希望能夠幾管齊下，還有包括委員，謝謝你們今年制定中小企業加薪抵稅。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個很重要。"],["何部長佩珊：對，65歲以上還給他加薪的抵稅優惠，還有包括勞基法第五十四條，我們通過了合意退休，就是不限於65歲，只要勞資雙方協商就可以延後，不限65歲退休。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望部長持續努力，我看到現在55到59歲的也都在這次法上想定的範圍內，我們的勞參率是61%，相較於美國的73%、日本的85%、韓國的77%，都還有一段距離。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是不是盡力……我也期待有一些更好的政策工具讓整個能夠有好的勞參率。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們一定會努力，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：期待部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員，謝謝部長、次長。繼續我們請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156143","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156143","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b1e5368db7b3141dd1a854d634de4a24c5966be1ac5b6e0f9615262e27cf63ed25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:31:29 - 12:38:04","影片長度":"00:06:35","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:31:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:38:04+08:00","duration":395,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.7565937500000001,"end":0.8072187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.523468750000001,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.181593750000001,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.855968750000002,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.43346875,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.73659375,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.00159375,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.06909375,"end":27.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.402218750000003,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.32471875,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.14659375,"end":50.065343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.352218750000006,"end":61.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.81034375,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.45909375000001,"end":97.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.65284375,"end":125.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.55159375000001,"end":125.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.58096875000001,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.27534375000002,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.02721875,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.46846875,"end":174.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.18096875,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.99909375000001,"end":178.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.05784375000002,"end":179.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.37409375000001,"end":188.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.81159375000001,"end":189.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.73971875,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.39596875,"end":215.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.30534375000002,"end":216.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.62159375000002,"end":221.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.83596875,"end":222.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.94971875000002,"end":225.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.63721875000002,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.43721875000003,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.79096875000002,"end":241.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.25909375,"end":243.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.89159375000003,"end":246.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.74346875,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.78096875000003,"end":252.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.91971875000002,"end":255.65346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.02471875000003,"end":257.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.11721875,"end":264.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.05721875,"end":264.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.22596875,"end":265.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.21721875000003,"end":269.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.74409375,"end":272.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.96721875000003,"end":275.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.49409375,"end":280.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.61159375,"end":281.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.40471875000003,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.11346875000004,"end":284.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.30721875,"end":286.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.95659375,"end":291.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.86721875,"end":297.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.37284375,"end":304.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.17409375,"end":299.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.89971875000003,"end":299.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.27034375,"end":312.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.94409375000004,"end":319.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.01471875000004,"end":321.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.53346875,"end":324.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.99284375,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.28784375000004,"end":328.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.45221875000004,"end":334.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.10096875000005,"end":339.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.26471875000004,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.03221875,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.28534375000004,"end":362.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.81096875000003,"end":357.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.47221875,"end":367.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.99534375,"end":363.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.78784375000004,"end":367.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.83846875,"end":368.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.97346875000005,"end":368.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.05784375,"end":370.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.50471875000005,"end":373.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.62659375000004,"end":390.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.54471875,"end":385.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.72971875,"end":388.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.74659375000005,"end":389.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.05846875000003,"end":392.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.69096875,"end":395.49659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.69,"text":"主委好 次長好這個我先請教次長其實剛剛我們的王世堅委員有提到我們臺北應該不能講臺灣就臺北全球金融這個中心指數臺北大概最新一期的報告是第73名那其實很多的投資客就是這樣子的一個名次"},{"start":30.311,"end":56.337,"text":"可能對於金融體系不是很了解的人就不會認為說臺灣是一個金融開放非常開放的一個地方可能會有許多的一個限制那今天你也聽到了許多的一些主委在這邊的一些答詢跟報告假設次長你今天有一個朋友可能在海外可能在新加坡可能有在香港可能都有可能幾十億數百億的一個資金"},{"start":57.077,"end":66.609,"text":"那你今天要鼓勵他來參加我們金管會的資產管理中心的計畫你會怎麼說服他把資金引回來?"},{"start":68.85,"end":96.639,"text":"我覺得應該是說目前臺灣的投資環境我們有很多很優秀的產業很傑出的產業那是很適合在臺灣做投資的據我們所了解其實我們很多目前國外的外資他其實就是看到臺灣有非常好的一個產業鏈他們都願意在臺灣增加投資所以我相信如果我們願意把這個而且主要這是一個優勢另外除此之外呢因為配合整個"},{"start":98.139,"end":125.18,"text":"金管會將來他們之所以推出這樣亞太資產管理中心這樣一個專案將來他就會有很多法規的鬆綁會有很多新的投資工具提供給我們這些不管是國內的投資人或者是國外的投資人他來參與我們國內的投資所以隨著整個這個亞太資產管理中心的發展跟慢慢的一些相關的措施推動出來我相信我們是可以吸引國外的資金來臺灣投資的"},{"start":125.7,"end":136.289,"text":"今天如果說是有一個人你有很多錢你放在國外有的人這樣子跟你鼓勵你把錢移回來臺灣高雄資產管理中心你會被他打動移回來嗎?"},{"start":137.832,"end":160.772,"text":"其實我們臺灣的注稅措施比較之下雖然也許以香港或新加坡在盈利事業所得稅的稅率上面我們是比他們稍微高一點但是我們在個人所得稅的部分還有就是個人有關資產投資或證券投資方面其實我們很多的優惠其實並不屬於香港跟新加坡好 謝謝次長其實來麻煩我們主委"},{"start":161.713,"end":179.367,"text":"其實在做這樣子的一個政策宣導的時候我們當然會把我們一些想要的努力方向講出來但是有時候講這個東西的時候講得太虛啦其實有錢人很在乎實際的東西啦那我們有這麼多的整本的一個整份的一個報告那署長"},{"start":180.424,"end":206.805,"text":"今天因為我們今天可能是對國內的一些民眾或者是媒體來做一些政策的一個宣導那今天如果說真的是要對國外的一些媒體或怎麼樣他們可能會想說你跟香港比嘛你跟新加坡比那我們現在所推出來的政策跟他們相比你有什麼突破性的一個政策具體的一個政策能夠讓人家在看"},{"start":207.465,"end":234.92,"text":"相關的一個報導的時候眼睛為之一亮願意看完標題之後再來看細項再來從而來做考慮我想這個才是不會變成說大家好像在自嗨的一個政策而已才能夠把它推廣出國際嘛對當然承蒙這個委員的指正來向你覺得會是最大的亮點比如說法規鬆綁吧或者說哪方面的政策你認為哪一個是最大的亮點在我們推動這個資產管理中心的時候是最有吸引力的"},{"start":235.715,"end":254.242,"text":"其實這分兩部分一部分從金管會主政的部分我想說我們第一個像比如說我們要擴大這個本國投信公司的規模這件事情我們對未來臺灣的比如說發基金這些規定我們會放寬像我們臺灣已經是成為很重要的ETF的這個發展的地區"},{"start":258.183,"end":258.663,"text":"稅負確實現階段與財政部繼續做協調"},{"start":266.277,"end":293.908,"text":"那再來就是我們在整個希望能夠創造一個國人投資的機會就是我們會開放我們的銀行的私人銀行業務希望能夠增加我們本國的高資產客戶然後能夠直接在臺灣能夠得到服務我想現階段我們在還有就是我們希望引入更多的資金比如說受選業機構投資的資金投資在臺灣的機會當然很重要的是臺灣的股市"},{"start":294.608,"end":318.693,"text":"還有像也是一個非常具有投資心理的地方謝謝署長我覺得剛剛又講一個標題很重要你剛剛又講了很多你想努力的東西你有哪一個東西是拿出來會讓有錢人眼睛為之一亮的他的現在的資產是放在其他地方你要讓他有這個動力把他移到我們的無論你到哪邊就到高雄我覺得這個宣傳是非常重要的沒問題那我直接問一個具體的目標"},{"start":320.066,"end":342.651,"text":"在我們這一次賴清德總統是2024年5月上任那我們在2027年底的時候你希望你們的這個計畫能夠把多少國內可能放在海外的資產移回來或者是說你們希望吸引多少外面的資金來到臺灣你有沒有設定一個目標"},{"start":343.651,"end":361.481,"text":"我們其實上我們對外市有做這樣的一個說明我們兩年有趕的主要是政策是希望我們能夠鬆綁超過這個等於說50個法規我們自己來做那我問你金額你們的目標金額希望兩年之內呢我們能夠對我們資產管理的規模能夠增加大概5到6兆"},{"start":362.561,"end":388.675,"text":"增加5到6兆我們第二個4年有變希望能夠增加10到12兆希望6年的時間能夠增加1兆美金的資產管理規模我想其實我也不是有錢人所以說我也不知道說有錢人為什麼不喜歡把錢放在臺灣但是今天既然我們提出了這個一個目標那我們後續就大家一起來檢視這是我們來努力那需要法規不斷我想立法院都是會全力支持謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":391.628,"end":394.453,"text":"謝謝廖先祥委員謝謝主委、謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1074,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時31分）謝謝召委。麻煩邀請彭主委、財政部李次長。"],["主席：請彭主委、李次長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：主委好。我想先請教次長，剛剛王世堅委員提到我們臺北在全球金融中心指數最新一期的報告是第73名，對金融體系不是很了解的人，對這樣的一個名次，可能就不會認為臺灣是金融非常開放的一個地方，可能會有許多的限制。今天你也聽到主委在這邊的一些答詢跟報告，假設次長今天有一個朋友在海外，比如新加坡或香港，擁有幾十億、數百億的資金，你想鼓勵他來參加金管會的這個資產管理中心計畫，你會怎麼說服他把資金迎回來？"],["李次長慶華：我覺得應該是說，我們臺灣目前的投資環境，有很多很優秀的產業、很傑出的產業，很適合在臺灣做投資的。據我們了解，國外很多外資就是看到臺灣有一個非常好的產業鏈，他們都願意在臺灣增加投資，這是一個優勢。另外，金管會推出亞太資產管理中心這樣一個專案，將來就會有很多法規的鬆綁，會有很多新的投資工具，提供給我們不管是國內的投資人，或是國外的投資人，來參與我們國內的投資。所以隨著亞太資產管理中心的發展，跟一些相關措施慢慢推動出來，我相信是可以吸引國外的資金來臺灣投資的。"],["廖委員先翔：次長，今天如果你有很多錢放在國外，有人這樣子鼓勵你把錢移回來臺灣的資產管理中心，你會被他打動，把資金移回來嗎？"],["李次長慶華：比較之下，臺灣的租稅措施也許比香港或新加坡在營利事業所得稅的稅率上面稍微高一點，但是我們在個人所得稅部分，還有個人在資產投資或證券投資方面，我們很多的優惠其實並不輸於香港跟新加坡。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝次長。主委，我們在做這樣一個政策宣導的時候，當然都會把我們想要的努力方向講出來，但有時候講這個東西講得太虛了。其實，有錢人很在乎實際的東西，我們今天這一整份的報告，可能是對國內的一些民眾或是媒體來做政策上的宣導；但如果是要對國外的一些媒體或投資人，他們可能會問：跟香港比，跟新加坡比，我們現在所推出來的政策，有什麼突破性？或是有一個具體的政策，能夠讓人家在看了相關的報導之後，眼睛為之一亮，願意看完標題之後，再去看細項，從而來考慮？我想這樣才不會變成大家說的，好像在自嗨的一個政策，也才能夠把它推廣到國際。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，承蒙委員的指正……"],["廖委員先翔：你覺得哪一項會是最大的亮點？比如你說的法規鬆綁或是哪方面的政策，你認為哪個是最大亮點，在我們推動這個資產管理中心的時候，是最有吸引力的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這分兩部分，一是從金管會主政的部分，比如我們要擴大本國投信公司規模的這件事情，對未來臺灣要發基金的這些規定，我們會放寬，其實臺灣已經是ETF很重要的一個發展的地區；稅負的部分，確實現階段我們還在跟財政部繼續做一些協調。再來就是我們希望能夠創造國人投資的機會，我們會開放銀行的私人銀行業務，希望能增加本國的高資產客戶能夠直接在臺灣得到服務。還有就是我們希望引入更多的資金，比如壽險業機構投資人資金投資在臺灣的機會；當然，很重要的一點，臺灣的股市也是一個非常具有投資性的地方。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝主委，我剛剛講了，標題很重要，你剛剛又講了很多你想努力的東西，你有哪一個東西是拿出來會讓有錢人眼睛為之一亮的？他們現在的資產放在其他地方，你要讓他有這個動力把它移回，無論是到哪邊或是到高雄，我覺得這個宣傳是非常重要的。","沒關係，我就直接問一個具體的目標，賴清德總統在2024年5月上任，那麼在2027年底的時候，你們希望這個計畫能夠把多少國內可能放在海外的資產移回來，或是說你們希望吸引多少外面的資金來到臺灣，有沒有設定一個目標？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們對外是有做這樣一個說明，第一個，我們兩年有感，主要是希望我們的政策能夠鬆綁，等於有五十個法規，我們自己來做……"],["廖委員先翔：我問你金額，就是你們的目標金額。"],["彭主任委員金隆：希望兩年之內，我們資產管理的規模能夠增加，大概五到六兆；第二個四年有變，希望能夠增加差不多十到十二兆；希望六年的時間能夠增加差不多一兆美金的資產管理規模。"],["廖委員先翔：其實我也不是有錢人，所以我也不知道有錢人為什麼不喜歡把錢放在臺灣，今天既然我們提出這一個目標，後續就大家一起來檢視……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們來努力。"],["廖委員先翔：法規部分，我想立法院會全力支持。謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員，謝謝主委、謝謝次長。接著請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156142","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156142","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b99aeff8f3cb6dd981a854d634de4a24c5966be1ac5b6e0f99482b33612278bb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:02:57 - 12:14:27","影片長度":"00:11:30","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:02:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:14:27+08:00","duration":690,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.08096875,"end":4.469093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.5572187500000005,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.329093750000002,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.847843750000003,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.965343750000002,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.977218750000002,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.99409375,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.722843750000003,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.84096875,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.88659375,"end":67.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.83471875000001,"end":72.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.86346875000001,"end":80.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.54159375,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.71846875,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.90034375,"end":107.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.10284375,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.52784375,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.95346875000001,"end":118.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.30346875000001,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.19346875000001,"end":123.01596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.47159375000001,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.37846875000001,"end":126.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.16721875,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.28096875,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.30971875,"end":140.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.67971875,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.21096875,"end":148.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.69159375,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.22221875,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.39096875,"end":159.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.68534375000002,"end":167.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.56596875000002,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.00409375,"end":174.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.88534375,"end":186.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.09096875,"end":185.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.60096875000002,"end":195.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.15221875,"end":199.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.96596875,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.83846875,"end":208.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.33596875,"end":211.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.11596875,"end":215.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.54159375,"end":217.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.27534375000002,"end":220.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.90784375,"end":224.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.38409375,"end":226.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":231.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.70784375000002,"end":238.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.30596875,"end":240.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.43221875,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.35596875000002,"end":243.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.72284375,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.48159375,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.55659375000002,"end":257.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.04971875,"end":264.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.04034375000003,"end":266.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.33534375,"end":271.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.27971875000003,"end":276.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.76846875,"end":276.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.73034375000003,"end":279.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.95346875,"end":282.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.07534375,"end":286.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.65284375000005,"end":289.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.31909375000004,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.10784375000003,"end":293.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.48721875,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.59596875,"end":314.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.31096875000003,"end":321.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.48284375000003,"end":325.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.61721875,"end":327.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.54096875000005,"end":330.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.61221875,"end":332.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.05909375000005,"end":336.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.68284375,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.96096875,"end":340.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.68221875,"end":350.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.54659375,"end":346.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.12409375000004,"end":352.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.29659375,"end":353.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.07284375,"end":354.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.76034375,"end":357.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.38034375,"end":362.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.82659375000003,"end":363.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.31596875,"end":366.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.70784375000005,"end":371.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.77471875000003,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.55909375000005,"end":374.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.13409375000003,"end":393.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.31534375,"end":405.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.36596875000004,"end":396.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.09846875000005,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.04659375,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.75096875,"end":415.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.34846875000005,"end":426.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.65971875,"end":433.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.54534375000003,"end":440.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.39721875000004,"end":437.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.69659375000003,"end":442.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.65784375000004,"end":444.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.04096875000005,"end":451.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.90971875,"end":453.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.08659375,"end":454.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.43221875,"end":476.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.98596875000004,"end":481.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.36909375000005,"end":491.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.08909375,"end":506.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.88846875,"end":508.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.13284375,"end":512.5247187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.6172187500001,"end":516.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.10221875,"end":532.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.53846875,"end":539.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.2040937500001,"end":540.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.42346875,"end":542.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.12346875,"end":542.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.2078437499999,"end":542.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.25846875,"end":542.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.4272187500001,"end":545.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.54534375,"end":544.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.22846875,"end":553.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.36221875,"end":564.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.05284375,"end":566.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.72721875,"end":578.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.4890937499999,"end":584.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.5303437499999,"end":585.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.8003437500001,"end":588.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.23846875,"end":592.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.73159375,"end":598.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.7222187500001,"end":603.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.31221875,"end":605.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.1303437500001,"end":608.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.16784375,"end":614.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.9053437499999,"end":615.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.36096875,"end":617.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.9765937500001,"end":621.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.16596875,"end":623.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.7309687500001,"end":625.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.3172187499999,"end":635.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.26534375,"end":633.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.6997187500001,"end":638.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.7453437500001,"end":641.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.11659375,"end":653.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.6840937500001,"end":657.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.87784375,"end":657.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.0209687500001,"end":658.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.13471875,"end":663.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.8472187500001,"end":670.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.26846875,"end":667.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.81221875,"end":672.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.6897187500001,"end":674.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.99721875,"end":677.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.64659375,"end":678.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.79409375,"end":680.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.6797187500001,"end":682.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.02971875,"end":690.2522187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.39,"end":26.827,"text":"主委好在上個會期討論非常多的就是因為大法官釋憲就是人民的保單可以強制執行那當時引起了非常非常多的爭議而且我們民意代表也接到了非常多的陳情"},{"start":27.788,"end":53.961,"text":"那我記得其實包含本席在內很多位的財委會的委員都提到這個強制保單的執行事上造成了一些我們比較弱勢的保護或者他的保單金額沒有這麼多甚至呢他可能他現在這個正在做保險給付的這些這個比較弱勢的這個保護的一個非常大的一個困擾"},{"start":55.001,"end":71.877,"text":"所以後來金管會也從善如流在今年的6月份宣布有8種可以免除強制執行那這一點其實是非常好但是它還是要透過修法"},{"start":73.018,"end":99.972,"text":"所以當時金管會的說法是提出來這八種的免除強制執行那麼馬上就要公告然後要送行政院而且對外表示要拼在這個下會期能夠在立法院能夠通過所以我們也非常希望趕快等到這個修法因為到目前為止"},{"start":100.752,"end":101.212,"text":"所以我現在請問了"},{"start":119.402,"end":140.574,"text":"從上個會期6月份說要修法公告到目前為止修法在哪裡?是 報告委員我們剛剛修正法預告結束我們收集了各方意見我們重新整理完已經簽報今天應該最近應該已經簽報會趕快送進行政院"},{"start":141.744,"end":166.866,"text":"所以現在還沒有送行政院因為我們剛剛結束預告的程序跟整合大家外界的意見所以你們預計什麼時候要送行政院十月底之前嗎應該沒問題十月底之前送行政院那大概什麼時候會送進立法院審查呢那我們就盡快的跟行政院報告請趕快協調其他部會開完會我們就盡快送大院審查"},{"start":167.625,"end":195.361,"text":"所以我不曉得我們的召委知不知道這件事情因為這個是知道那很好所以這個事情我們很希望說這個民眾普遍在關心的法案能夠盡快的完成修法好那我請問一下那麼現在你們的修法的這個相關的條文是不是還維持就是當時所宣布的那八項"},{"start":196.535,"end":213.485,"text":"現在因為主要是我們也收到很多預告的意見當時我們的八項送給私人參考其實他們在法院跟行政執行處他們看法都並不是完全參採這個因為實務上很多現在就是因為法律上沒有規定所以我們這次修法把它簡化因為大法庭裡面的決議是針對人壽保險"},{"start":215.546,"end":215.826,"text":"好,那所以還是100萬嗎?"},{"start":240.827,"end":265.347,"text":"現在不是一百萬現在是多少現在我們是連結到我們的規劃是這樣我們是連結到行政執行法裡面一個最低生活津貼的大概幾個月做一個標準因為我們不希望定一個金額因為這個金額會隨著這個變動我們希望連結到一個比如說按照那個精神上面一個法律上的金額隨著這個東西移動所以我們會用這樣的方式來大概會落在什麼樣的區間呢"},{"start":266.529,"end":268.837,"text":"現在看起來這個金額的部分大概就是應該是20萬10到20萬之間"},{"start":271.363,"end":298.671,"text":"只有10到20萬就是解約金額10到20萬以上以下的話就不得作為還有我們明文的把健康險跟傷害險排除就不會有說剛剛講很多我們陳情案最多的就是醫療險的部分那這部分的話就會把它明確化也統一的不管是法院或是那個行政執行處他們有一些不一樣的看法我們也希望這個法案能夠趕快通過能夠真的有一個法源以後呢我們法院比較好具以辦理"},{"start":299.653,"end":302.474,"text":"這個在我們在預告的時候很多人有提到就是說"},{"start":317.381,"end":317.401,"text":"王鴻議員"},{"start":337.768,"end":366.321,"text":"所以小兒中老保險也在裡面那有沒有一個額度呢?我們額度就統一在按照那個標準來做統一在一百萬?就是以那個最低生活需要的幾個月那你們整個的很限縮餒限縮很大唷那你們跟你們六月份對外所講的跟你們後來實際會送出的法案限縮很大耶那你限縮很大到時候又造成很多的民怨啊"},{"start":367.362,"end":391.682,"text":"這個問題我們也是因為透過預告的時候才收集到各方其實也包括我們的那這樣子的話我們可能立法院就好好審一審因為我本來想說如果你們按照你們6月公告修法幾乎是那時候大家都比較達成一定的共識那大家也覺得比較可以接受如果你們現在最後送來的法事實上是線索很多因為我當時就說啊因為很多人講說你給我留一個關財本好不好你如果10到20萬這"},{"start":394.464,"end":394.484,"text":"王鴻"},{"start":413.066,"end":413.827,"text":"時間稍微暫停一下我請我們的負稅署署長一起上來"},{"start":443.703,"end":444.485,"text":"副責署宋署長那個主委我還是要繼續就是主委來來來"},{"start":456.465,"end":461.03,"text":"因為前不久你接受媒體的採訪說在明年你們要推TISA這個是事實上過去你們金管會也一直要推的可是我們會推出一個因為像日本是有免稅還有一個免稅額度"},{"start":477.288,"end":478.83,"text":"但是這樣的推出會不會變成四不像"},{"start":492.148,"end":511.395,"text":"就是你沒有任何的租稅減免然後只有一些優惠的手續費但事實上現在大家也知道有一些投信事實上有一些的它是已經有優惠的手續費了所以你們會不會出現一個似不像的一個這樣子的個人投資儲蓄賬戶"},{"start":514.639,"end":536.543,"text":"各位委員報告日本是因為他有很多所得要課稅所以他在他的NISA帳戶裡面他特別規定在定額的所得定額的所得是免稅的但是因為我們臺灣本身證券交易所得上市櫃的部分本來就全免那另外我們對於儲蓄儲蓄的利息金融機構儲還利息有27萬免稅"},{"start":540.245,"end":565.981,"text":"這27萬也800年都沒調過了這27萬800年沒調過了可是以臺灣的利率水準27萬利息所得免稅倒推來講那個本金是2000多萬2000多萬那我們如果再去看我們的股利我們的股利本身是有二則一課稅制度簡單講你都不用在公司就要預減稅因為我時間有限所以我要請教主委"},{"start":566.801,"end":590.163,"text":"按照現在財政部的說法就是不會給你任何的免稅說我們都有我們都已經有這個免稅那個免稅有什麼免稅額免稅額還有什麼分離課稅所以那你對你未來要推出的這個TISA你會有信心嗎以日本來講是因為他有免稅額他上路一個月就這個整個的帳戶餘額是暴增"},{"start":594.066,"end":616.776,"text":"對阿 這個委員報告就是日本他確實在做TESA他很方便就直接把他那個資本利得免稅這樣就產生很大因為臺灣本來就是免稅在這一塊其實上我們已經沒有這個空間那至於說投信投顧公會提出以那個投資的兩萬四五年那個確實在資金的整個積增成本上非常的高我們評估的時候我們也覺得這個東西"},{"start":617.756,"end":618.936,"text":"所以你按照這樣的方式你要如期上路"},{"start":640.207,"end":653.315,"text":"那你有信心嗎?你有信心嗎?就是到時候你上路之後如果大家對這信息缺缺按照這看起來那跟我現在我存在銀行沒有這個特殊特別的什麼儲蓄投資帳戶也差不多啊"},{"start":653.717,"end":654.057,"text":"王鴻威委員"},{"start":683.073,"end":688.805,"text":"我們各位列席的出席官員可以在座位上吃便當因為我們可能會開到2點"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時3分）好，謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：在上個會期討論非常多的，就是因為大法官釋憲人民的保單可以強制執行，當時引起了非常多的爭議，而且我們民意代表也接到了非常多的陳情。我記得包含本席在內，很多位財委會的委員都提到，這個強制保單的執行，事實上造成了一些比較弱勢的保戶，或者他的保單金額沒有這麼多，甚至他現在可能正在做保險給付等，這些比較弱勢的保戶，造成一個非常大的困擾。","後來金管會也從善如流，在今年6月份宣布有8種可以免除強制執行，這一點其實非常好，但還是要透過修法。當時金管會的說法是，提出這8種免除強制執行，然後馬上公告送行政院，並對外表示要拚下會期能夠在立法院通過。所以我們也非常希望趕快等到這個修法，因為到目前為止，以我們辦公室來說，到現在還有很多的保戶在關心這個進度，我去跑行程的時候也有民眾會攔轎喊冤，在關心這件事。所以我現在請問，從上個會期6月份說要修法公告，到目前為止修法在哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們修正法剛預告結束，蒐集了各方意見，我們重新整理完，最近應該已經簽報，會趕快送進行政院。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在還沒有送行政院？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們剛結束預告的程序，跟整合外界的意見。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們預計什麼時候要送行政院，10月底之前嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該沒問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，10月底之前送行政院，那大概什麼時候會送進立法院審查呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們就儘快的跟行政院報告，趕快協調其他部會開完會，儘快送大院審查。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不曉得我們召委知不知道這件事情？知道，那很好。所以我們很希望這個民眾普遍在關心的法案，能夠儘快的完成修法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們也是朝這個方向努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我請問一下，現在你們修法的相關條文是不是還維持當時所宣布的那8項？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們也收到很多預告的意見，比如當時我們的8項送給司法院參考，其實他們在法院跟行政執行處都不是完全參採這個。現在就是因為法律上沒有規定，所以我們這次的修法把它簡化，因為大法庭裡面的決議是針對人壽保險，本來就不含健康跟傷害險。但是因為我們的年金險，大概也會跟人壽保險很像，也是很高的儲蓄性質。所以我們這次修法就針對人壽險跟年金險的解約金，達到一定金額以上的才可以作為強制執行的對象。我們把它簡化以後也考慮到這個問題，這個案子會趕快送過來。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以還是100萬嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在不是100萬。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的規劃是這樣，我們是連結到行政執行法裡面，最低生活津貼大概幾個月做一個標準。我們不希望訂一個金額，因為這個金額會隨著東西變動，所以我們希望連結到一個，比如說按照法律上的金額隨著這個移動，我們會用這樣的方式來訂定。"],["王委員鴻薇：那大概會落在什麼樣的區間呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在看起來金額的部分大概就是20萬，10到20萬之間。"],["王委員鴻薇：只有10到20萬，就是解約金額10到20萬是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以上，以下的話就不得作為，還有我們明文把健康險跟傷害險排除，就不會有剛剛講的，陳情案最多的就是醫療險的部分。那這部分就會把它明確化，也統一了，不管是法院或是行政執行處，他們有一些不一樣的看法，我們也希望這個法案能夠趕快通過，真的有一個法源以後，我們法院比較好據以辦理。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，其中有一項是小額終老保險以外的人壽保險，每個保險人合併之後，保險金沒有超過100萬額度以內，那個還存在嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個在我們預告的時候有很多人提到，不希望保險成為規避債務的方法，所以我們現在就把它簡化，只要是人壽保險就全部都以人壽保險。我們回到大法庭的解釋，就是他只針對人壽保險，我們就針對人壽保險，還有衍生出來年金險的部分，所以當然小額終老保險也涵蓋在人壽保險的範圍之內。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以小額終老保險也在裡面？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有一個額度呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們額度就統一按照那個標準來做，其實……"],["王委員鴻薇：統一在100萬？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是以最低生活需要的幾個月。"],["王委員鴻薇：哇！你們整個很限縮欸！限縮很大喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為主要是我們想解決……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們6月份對外所講的，跟你們後來實際送出的法案，限縮很大耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們……"],["王委員鴻薇：你限縮很大，到時候又造成很多的民怨。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個問題我們也是因為透過預告的時候才蒐集到各方，其實也包括我們的……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣子的話，我們立法院可能就要好好審一審，如果你們是按照你們6月的公告修法，幾乎是那時候大家都比較達成一定的共識，大家也覺得比較可以接受。如果你們最後送來的法，事實上是限縮很多，因為我當時就說，很多人講你給我留一個棺材本好不好？如果是10到20萬，這很多人很難接受啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛看的是以保險給付，我們是解約金的角度，其實這個介入權最重要的概念是，他同時衡平的保護債權人跟債務人，那也不能過度偏廢於債務人，其實債權人權益也是要考慮的，所以這個重點不在於說……"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我覺得這個額度還是要調整，不然以現在的物價之高，尤其在臺北市，六都的生活水準，我覺得你們都要把它涵蓋在內。"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實我覺得在未來……"],["王委員鴻薇：我希望在你們送出之前，還是能夠做一些調整，否則的話到我們這邊來大修啦！對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，我們會來考慮這件事情，我們應該是近期趕快，因為這已經……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，時間稍微暫停一下，我請我們的賦稅署署長一起上來。"],["主席：請賦稅署宋署長。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，前不久你接受媒體的採訪，說在明年你們要推TISA。事實上過去金管會也一直要推，可是我們會推出一個……因為像日本是有免稅，他有一個免稅額度，但還有一些負擔的手續費。但是我們臺灣非常不一樣，就是沒有免稅，當然就是源於財政部不准嘛！但是這樣的推出會不會變成四不像？就是你沒有任何的租稅減免，只有一些優惠的手續費，但事實上現在大家也知道，有一些投信已經有優惠的手續費了，所以你們會不會出現一個四不像的個人投資儲蓄帳戶？"],["宋署長秀玲：跟委員報告，日本是因為他有很多所得要課稅，所以他在NISA帳戶裡面特別規定，在定額的所得是免稅的。但是因為我們臺灣本身，證券交易所上市櫃的部分本來就全免，另外我們對於儲蓄的利息，金融機構存款利息有27萬免稅，這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：這27萬也800年沒調過啦！"],["宋署長秀玲：可是因為以臺灣的利率水準，27萬利息所得免稅倒推來講，那個本金是2,000多萬，如果再去看我們的股利，我們的股利本身是有二擇一課稅制度，簡單講，你都不用在公司機關預繳稅款就有可抵減稅額……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，因為我時間有限，我要請教主委，按照現在財政部的說法，就是不會給你任何的免稅，說我們都已經有這個免稅、那個免稅，有什麼免稅額，還有什麼分離課稅，所以你對未來要推出的這個TISA，你會有信心嗎？以日本來講，是因為他有免稅額，他上路一個月整個帳戶的餘額是暴增欸！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，確實日本在做TISA很方便，就直接把資本利得免稅，這樣就產生很大的誘因，但因為臺灣本來就是免稅，在這一塊其實我們已經沒有這個空間。至於投信投顧公會提出以投資的2萬4,000五年，那個在整個資金的激增成本上非常的高，我們評估的時候，也覺得這個東西不太可能。再來直接扣2萬4,000的投資，其實所能產生的稅負效果很微小，我們後來才請賦稅署給我們盤點一下現在的這些資訊，這個的好處比原來投信投顧公會提的好很多，所以我們想先讓制度先行。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以按照這樣的方式，你要如期上路，你有信心嗎？到時上路之後，如果大家對這個興趣缺缺，按照這個看起來，跟我現在存在銀行沒有特別的儲蓄投資帳戶也差不多啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實還是有差別，我想這個點可能副主委能作更專業的說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：我只問你有沒有信心啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我是有信心。"],["王委員鴻薇：你有信心？因為馬上就會驗證到，你什麼時候要上路呢？明年？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們還要跟集保，及相關參與的投信投顧……"],["王委員鴻薇：預計。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想明年上半年應該可以上路。"],["王委員鴻薇：上半年是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為今年已經剩下兩個月而已。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒有錯，好，拭目以待了，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員，各位列席官員可以在座位上吃便當，因為我們可能會開到2點，中間不休息，自由用餐，謝謝。接著我們請王世堅王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156141","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156141","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b016c0665a4bcb400acf2ea2eceb6ef265966be1ac5b6e0f9458456231790284f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:21:12 - 12:28:18","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:21:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:28:18+08:00","duration":426,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.60471875,"end":1.9209687500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.73096875,"end":3.4734687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.177218750000002,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.274093750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.09659375,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.06971875,"end":49.086593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.086593750000006,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.02284375,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.018468750000004,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.03534375,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.13596875,"end":57.524093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.57471875,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.31159375,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.32846875,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.23971875000001,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.27346875,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.34096875,"end":68.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.96534375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.03096875,"end":81.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.70596875000001,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.34221875,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.41784375,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.43471875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.02534375,"end":90.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.95346875,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.17659375000001,"end":96.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.45471875000001,"end":103.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.43659375,"end":121.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.93596875,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.86284375,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.11034375,"end":140.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.12721875,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.71721875,"end":154.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.84221875,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.62596875,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.59159375000002,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.70971875,"end":165.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.92909375000002,"end":165.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.24971875,"end":193.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.50284375,"end":194.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.65471875,"end":195.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.81909375,"end":212.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.31034375000002,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.52096875,"end":290.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.82096875,"end":296.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.91284375000004,"end":311.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.00346875,"end":332.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.13096875,"end":332.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.14784375000005,"end":332.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.38409375000003,"end":373.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.55159375,"end":340.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.68659375000004,"end":340.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.41159375,"end":372.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.84596875,"end":416.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.32971875000004,"end":383.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.87721875000005,"end":422.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.05346875000004,"end":425.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.43721875,"end":425.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.17971875,"end":425.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.39909375,"end":425.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.55096875000004,"end":425.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.70284375,"end":425.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.87159375000005,"end":425.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.92221875,"end":425.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.93909375000004,"end":425.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.97284375000004,"end":426.51284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.59,"end":3.254,"text":"主席有請副部長羅委員好副部長好"},{"start":12.328,"end":28.461,"text":"過去中科院曾經一度傳出完成現有建案之後未來無人機將不再繼續研製改以對煤產購為主但昨天國防部報告內容指出將續依需求和預算量產騰雲、瑞淵、紅雀等機型"},{"start":31.764,"end":51.417,"text":"可是月初中科院的院長在立法院報告時他才證實說2025年沒有瑞淵二型無人機量產的預算所以中科院已經通知相關下游廠商先停產那以目前為止的話現在這個狀況到底是怎麼樣報告委員我請中科院李院長跟您做一個詳細說明"},{"start":53.066,"end":80.549,"text":"我們報告2025年確實沒有這些量產的預算是好那我們知道瑞淵二型的設計是為了改善過去海上無人偵察機的電站能力武器的攜帶能力跟通訊能力嘛對不對還有包含對人力的需求好那可是現在所以那現在中科院是就不再有這個計畫是要等到嘉義的無人機園區2026年完成之後才會有新的投入投產計畫嗎"},{"start":81.752,"end":102.465,"text":"沒有,委員這只是一時的預算排擠,我想部長上次在答詢的時候也講得很清楚,這些無人機都一定會量產。那大概什麼時候呢?我們當然希望爭取儘快。這儘快是什麼時候?因為114年的預算已經編列了,所以說可能要到115年。"},{"start":104.482,"end":128.827,"text":"那目前共艦跟海警船繞台的頻次愈來愈多那是讓海上徵收的無人機的重要性也開始出現那我不知道國防部對於這部分的戰力評估是如何覺得我們目前應對這個狀況我們的準備是什麼報告委員我請我們情報次長和作戰次長先請情報次長就是本這部分來向您做個說明無人機的部分"},{"start":130.899,"end":143.477,"text":"我順便講一下就算我們的無人機還沒量產但是我們的原型機只要國軍有需要我們都會支援各項的任務好 謝謝院長就這個陳青堅真的能力向委員做了報告"},{"start":144.738,"end":163.799,"text":"報告委員：我是情報次長謝日生先在這邊跟委員做說明我們在聯合勤監政的部分所使用的有關於無人機的部分按照我們長遠的規劃來講的話是從以高低空不同空城不同類型依照我們的作戰需求來做的這個長遠的規劃"},{"start":166.331,"end":192.243,"text":"那我再問一個問題我也看到媒體披露我們顧部長在一場媒體查詢中透露他希望2028年前台灣將採購總計3422架包括微型無人機等6款國產的軍用無人機那這些機型是在我們的中科院現在目前規劃機型的內容在內還是說實質上用目前的計畫狀況是如何"},{"start":195.026,"end":210.464,"text":"三千兩百四四架是我們包含陸用型的海用型各有三種那這部分的無人機是由我們民間的廠商來經過我們正式的這個標案來實施的那這三千兩百四通通都已經絕標了所以我們會陸續開始來交機"},{"start":212.726,"end":231.991,"text":"我現在要關心就是有關於無人機自治率的問題不管是要採用中科院自主研發的機型還是民間企業所開發的軍用商規的無人機型其實自治率這一塊也是我們今天國防部很重要的一個要求我們如果說今天參考烏俄戰場來看的話"},{"start":234.652,"end":249.666,"text":"無人機戰場的消耗非常的大對不對我們參照這個無二的這個戰爭的狀況那所以數量一般都認為是一個關鍵所以因此如果有完全的自己製造能力的話那數量部分我們應對會相對比較有餘裕對不對"},{"start":252.549,"end":269.023,"text":"那可是自由時報在2023年曾經有一段這個不具名的政府官員指出他說當前國內無人機廠商大部分資本額不大主要是以採購零組件組裝為主那軍用商規無人機開發給民間廠商技術練兵的機會"},{"start":272.386,"end":286.07,"text":"對於無人機關鍵模組的研發跟自主產制有相當注意但後續的陸海軍驗收落合格那國內廠商取得銷售時機才能夠帶動國內無人機產業發展但是有人也就認為說今天"},{"start":291.191,"end":310.615,"text":"實際上我們到底這個所謂的零組件的這個部分那關鍵零組件的部分那如果我們今天的量產的那個規模您覺得什麼時候能夠達到說今天像假定面對到烏俄戰爭的狀況是情況我們有辦法去因應這個大量龐大的需求嗎"},{"start":311.515,"end":339.452,"text":"這個也跟委員簡單的報告就是說有關在俄烏戰爭給我們一個非常好的啟示就是在俄烏戰爭雙方無人機的使用都非常大量損耗量陳如剛才委員所說的每一天的損耗可能都上到千架以上所以有關整個無人機我們把無人機的成本要降低是我們未來努力的一個方向所以包含系統化模組化我們也會參與世界各國有關無人機製造的一個能力技術來做一個參考"},{"start":340.773,"end":362.595,"text":"我們中科院是做軍用軍規的無人機我們現在民間做的是軍用商規的無人機剛才跟委員所報告的未來我們3,244架包含陸用型、空用、海用型各有三類型總共是六個類型所以這六個類型這一部分我們在國內的所有廠商當中都是經過我們各軍種邀集所有專家來做一個非常嚴格的測試"},{"start":364.096,"end":364.336,"text":"副長我最後做一個簡單的"},{"start":375.819,"end":377.74,"text":"實際上我們能不能滿足量產這件事那才是未來如果真的發生"},{"start":404.888,"end":405.909,"text":"感謝委員知道我們會加入參考謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時21分）主席，有請副部長。"],["主席：請副部長。"],["徐副部長衍璞：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：副部長好。過去中科院曾經一度傳出，完成現有建案之後，未來無人機將不再繼續研製，改以對美採購為主。但是昨天國防部的報告內容指出，將續依需求和預算，量產騰雲、銳鳶、紅雀等機型。可是月初中科院的院長在立法院報告時，他證實2025年沒有銳鳶二型無人機量產的預算，中科院已經通知相關下游廠商先停產。到目前為止，狀況到底是怎麼樣？"],["徐副部長衍璞：請中科院李院長向您做一個詳細說明。"],["李院長世強：2025年確實沒有這些量產的預算。"],["羅委員智強：是。我們知道銳鳶二型的設計是為了改善過去海上無人偵察機的電戰能力、武器攜帶能力和通訊能力嘛！對不對？"],["李院長世強：還有包含對人力的需求。"],["羅委員智強：所以現在中科院不再有這個計劃？還是要等到嘉義的無人機園區2026年完成之後，才會有新的投產計劃？"],["李院長世強：沒有。委員，這只是一時的預算排擠，部長上次答詢的時候也說的很清楚，這些無人機一定會量產。"],["羅委員智強：大概什麼時候呢？"],["李院長世強：我們當然希望爭取儘快。"],["羅委員智強：儘快是指什麼時候？"],["李院長世強：因為114年的預算已經編列，所以可能要到115年。"],["羅委員智強：目前共艦和海警船繞臺的頻次越來越多，事實上海上增設無人機的重要性也開始出現，不知道國防部對於這部分的戰力評估如何？目前應對這個狀況，我們的準備是什麼？"],["徐副部長衍璞：請情報次長和作戰次長說明。先請情報次長就無人機的部分向您說明。"],["羅委員智強：OK。"],["李院長世強：趁這個空檔，我順便說一下，就算我們的無人機還沒量產，但是只要國軍有需要，我們的原型機都會支援各項任務。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝院長。"],["謝次長日升：我是情報次長謝日升，在這邊向委員說明。我們在聯合情監偵所使用的，有關無人機的部分，按照長遠的規劃來說，是以高、低空不同空層、不同類型，依照作戰需求做長遠的規劃。"],["羅委員智強：本席再問一個問題，因為我們也看到媒體披露，顧部長在一場媒體茶敘中透露，他說2028年之前臺灣將總計採購3,422架，包括微型無人機等六款國產的軍用無人機。這些機型是中科院目前規劃發展的內容？目前的計畫狀況如何？怎麼樣跟上國防部部長的規劃？"],["徐副部長衍璞：3,244架是包含陸用型和海用型各三種，這部分的無人機是由民間廠商生產，經過我們正式的標案實施，這3,244架通通都已經決標了，會陸續交機。"],["羅委員智強：本席現在要關心的，就是有關無人機自製率的問題，不管是採用中科院自主研發的機型，還是民間企業開發的軍用商規無人機型，其實自製率這一塊，也是國防部很重要的一個要求，如果參考烏俄戰場，無人機在戰場的消耗非常大，對不對？參照烏俄戰爭的狀況，一般都認為數量是一個關鍵，因此，如果自己有完全的製造能力，在數量的部分，我們的應對會比較有餘裕嘛！對不對？","可是自由時報在2023年曾經有一段報導，不具名的政府官員指出，他說當前國內無人機廠商大部分資本額都不大，主要是以採購零組件組裝為主，軍用商規無人機開發案給民間廠商技術練兵的機會，對於無人機關鍵模組的研發和自主產製有相當助益，後續的陸海軍驗收若合格，國內廠商取得銷售時機，才能夠帶動國內無人機產業發展。但是有人也就認為，所謂關鍵零組件的部分，我們的量產規模，您覺得什麼時候能夠達到？假定面對烏俄戰爭的情況，我們有辦法去因應這個龐大的需求嗎？"],["徐副部長衍璞：這個也跟委員簡單的報告，俄烏戰爭給我們一個非常好的啟示，俄烏戰爭中雙方無人機的使用都非常大量，損耗量誠如剛才委員所說的，每一天的損耗可能都上到千架以上，可能。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["徐副部長衍璞：所以有關無人機，我們要把無人機的成本降低是我們未來努力的一個方向。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["徐副部長衍璞：所以包含系統化、模組化，我們也會參據世界各國有關無人機製造的能力、技術來做一個參考，我們中科院是做軍用軍規的無人機，現在民間做的是軍用商規的無人機，剛才跟委員所報告的未來我們3,244架，包含陸用型的、空用、海用型的，各有三類型，總共是六個類型，所以這六個類型的部分，我們在國內所有廠商當中都是經過我們各軍種邀集所有專家做非常嚴格的測試，經過測試以後它才可以通過決標，所以我們在整個審查過程當中，對於整個生產能力部分，我們是列為第一優先。"],["羅委員智強：副部長，我最後做一個簡單的結論，剛剛副部長也說，以烏俄戰爭的狀況來看，每天耗損甚至上千架的無人機，對不對？"],["徐副部長衍璞：以上。"],["羅委員智強：事實上，你可以看到現在即便顧部長揭露的3,422架無人機，照這種比例來看，也是遠遠不夠！我們當然在追求所謂自製率提高的過程，但實際上我們能不能滿足量產這件事，那才是未來如果真的發生特定狀況的時候，我們能夠跟得上的一個關鍵。其實你也知道，這兩個有點衝突，對不對？因為有時候自製率要求高的話，事實上量產能力會受到一些影響。但是怎麼樣求取平衡，我覺得要參考其他國家的狀況來加以精進好嗎？"],["徐副部長衍璞：是，感謝委員指導，我們會納入參考。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝。"],["徐副部長衍璞：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。副部長請回。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},{"id":"156140","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156140","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bf11de670b78c68ac6b4c0e929d5f577f5966be1ac5b6e0f9fb433ea9b5ad6db25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:09:59 - 12:23:26","影片長度":"00:13:27","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:09:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:23:26+08:00","duration":807,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.301593750000002,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.10721875,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.359718750000003,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.60409375,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.71721875,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.172843750000006,"end":37.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.63971875,"end":51.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.820343750000006,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.91284375,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.604093750000004,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.532218750000006,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.35471875,"end":75.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.71096875,"end":77.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.60096875,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.59596875000001,"end":143.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.17721875,"end":153.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.03221875,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.33159375,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.14971875,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.46596875,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.61346875,"end":161.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.30534375000002,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.60034375,"end":169.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.15221875,"end":171.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":184.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.62221875,"end":186.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.73596875,"end":194.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.70096875000002,"end":208.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.34971875000002,"end":201.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.63971875000001,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.37659375,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.12471875000003,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.62659375,"end":238.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.17346875,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.69284375,"end":290.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.95596875,"end":293.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.88409375000003,"end":293.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.80784375,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.94284375,"end":294.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.04409375,"end":300.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.41909375,"end":298.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.79846875000004,"end":308.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.16846875000005,"end":314.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.29909375,"end":310.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.92284375,"end":314.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.53034375000004,"end":314.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.56409375000004,"end":317.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.19659375000003,"end":317.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.80409375,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.71096875,"end":320.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.94284375,"end":325.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.44409375000004,"end":351.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.19534375,"end":362.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.99534375,"end":378.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.96846875,"end":373.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.86284375,"end":373.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.79034375000003,"end":383.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.49846875000003,"end":389.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.19784375,"end":395.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.71596875,"end":401.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.85846875000004,"end":411.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.33784375000005,"end":414.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.50659375000004,"end":414.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.30784375,"end":415.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.13471875000005,"end":418.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.96971875,"end":420.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.02846875,"end":422.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.23909375000005,"end":423.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.16721875,"end":427.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.04846875000004,"end":429.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.87096875000003,"end":437.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.65034375000005,"end":452.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.87159375000005,"end":461.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.64659375,"end":462.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.01346875,"end":463.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.90784375000004,"end":466.20284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.91159375,"end":470.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.77596875,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.68721875000006,"end":472.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.76721875000004,"end":496.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.11784375,"end":505.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.45409375,"end":517.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.1272187500001,"end":533.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.4328437500001,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.0065937500001,"end":538.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.73159375,"end":564.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.4409687500001,"end":562.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.5672187499999,"end":573.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.3897187499999,"end":566.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.1015937500001,"end":586.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.5815937500001,"end":580.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.8684687500001,"end":580.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.5047187499999,"end":588.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.35659375,"end":596.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.69721875,"end":596.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.96721875,"end":597.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.67596875,"end":603.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.71721875,"end":604.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.7509687500001,"end":603.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.3247187500001,"end":604.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.39221875,"end":608.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.0834687500001,"end":618.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.1284687500001,"end":618.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.92159375,"end":626.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.34659375,"end":626.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.1228437500001,"end":639.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.67784375,"end":640.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.2009687500001,"end":647.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.6428437500001,"end":651.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.92909375,"end":660.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.07534375,"end":672.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.4965937500001,"end":666.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.77409375,"end":674.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.9297187500001,"end":687.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.2990937500001,"end":689.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.9484687500001,"end":696.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.2178437500002,"end":698.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.33096875,"end":710.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.28284375,"end":710.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.10971875,"end":711.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.6240937500002,"end":716.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.05846875,"end":715.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.6828437500001,"end":726.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.2634687500001,"end":726.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.9340937500001,"end":729.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.72284375,"end":732.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.7097187500001,"end":736.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.91596875,"end":744.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.14659375,"end":749.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.66909375,"end":757.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.0603437500001,"end":760.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.75596875,"end":760.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.9753437500001,"end":760.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.9922187500001,"end":761.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.05971875,"end":791.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.09346875,"end":761.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.6840937500001,"end":762.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.9328437500001,"end":762.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.5359687499999,"end":792.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.4428437500001,"end":803.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.65221875,"end":807.2465937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.951,"end":38.502,"text":"謝謝主席因為不好意思因為我實在是看不出誰是主的機關所以我就麻煩請今天列席的官員請大家上台謝謝那個吃便當你就坐著繼續吃沒吃的吃完再過來好不好好謝謝慢慢吃啦不要噎到"},{"start":46.964,"end":52.068,"text":"我國的總人口數將低於2300萬人。"},{"start":78.654,"end":102.012,"text":"在就是統計顯示45歲到65歲的工作人口在2037年就會突破五成那顯示說勞動人口高齡化將成為一個趨勢因此我們今天討論的這個中高齡的相關政策計劃是有它的必要性那今天這個草案裡面"},{"start":102.552,"end":118.152,"text":"的確有一些需要被討論的問題首先就如同我剛剛不知道要請誰上來我們的主責或者主管機關並不是很明確在這部草案裡面"},{"start":119.053,"end":143.118,"text":"草案裏面的就是說由行政院下設的這個壯世代政策辦公室它統籌整合各目的事業主管機關的權責並且是由這個行政院長擔任召集人所以各機關首長還有政委、學者、專家擔任委員那所以按照這樣的一個邏輯今天理應站在這裡來備詢的應該是行政院長"},{"start":146.021,"end":154.433,"text":"我本來是想請教昭偉說我如果現在會議詢問說我們要不要暫停大家一起等那個院長來這裡備詢那我們先等昭偉一下"},{"start":159.509,"end":161.591,"text":"目前我們好像沒有這樣的慣例吧應該沒有"},{"start":185.672,"end":206.783,"text":"那就是說所以我也不曉得就是說未來如何能夠執行的好以這樣子的一個設計來看那舉例而言部會首長負責的業務被討論的時候然後他自己本身又是委員那他扮演的角色就會有衝突嗎"},{"start":208.704,"end":236.191,"text":"那有說代表部會的委員你在會議中然後你要報告你的執行成效然後你又可以提出檢討的意見本席對於這些兼任委員的機關首長還有政委你們必須要用這種人格分離的方式角色扮演我是感到就是說無限的同情那針對這一點不曉得哪一位可以來說明一下"},{"start":237.591,"end":262.506,"text":"非常感謝委員的隨詢因為確實陳副委員剛剛所說的這個確實在整個主責跟這一個相當主管機關確實是相當有不明確性的問題那因此我們現在目前其實在院裡面其實本來我們就有一個我們的一個高齡社會白皮書還有另外有一個我們另外有一個郵政委他來擔任我們跨部會之間的協調那到目前為止其實運作上老實說也相當的這一個順暢"},{"start":263.747,"end":267.369,"text":"您們內部運作順暢但是到時候你們要開始報告的時候又要提出意見的時候到時候這個分裂的狀態人格分裂的狀態就會呈現出來所以反正我就"},{"start":291.022,"end":293.364,"text":"第二條這個壯世代政策的定義本期認為太過於偏狹"},{"start":317.845,"end":317.865,"text":"對,沒錯。"},{"start":339.535,"end":365.467,"text":"所以要這個協助他們持續成為生產者還有消費者然後提升他們的生活品質降低社會福利的負擔我想這樣的定義齁其實也是跟我們目前各部會都已經在做的政策其實沒有區隔我們是有往那個方向舉例說勞動部主管的這個中高齡及高齡者的這個就業促進法"},{"start":367.128,"end":389.19,"text":"那不就是這個法就已經是讓他們在持續就業成為這個經濟的生產者嗎?對不對?那再相較說第一條的這個立法目的這個如海嘯般翻轉的格局這樣子的定義是實在是我看是有點很這個虎頭蛇尾然後狗尾敘雕啦"},{"start":390.23,"end":410.775,"text":"因為本席認為這一點,就是也是大家要重新去審視。你們有沒有要回應一下這個部分?是委員,對,就是您可以選的事,就是您講的問題就處在這裡,對。好,對,就是那如果沒有能賺能花又活蹦亂跳那幾百萬的就被歧視了嗎?對。"},{"start":415.316,"end":428.766,"text":"那再來就是第三點就是這個草案呢好多好多的重點就像就真的重點太多然後反而看不出重點在哪裡那我們用一個這個"},{"start":430.647,"end":451.983,"text":"我今天講了很多次這個翻轉銀髮海嘯人口變遷所生的新社會放在立法精神裡面然後從而衍生出實現世代經濟的循環創造跨鄰共榮韌性永續之目標我想一般民眾的認知可能是很抽象"},{"start":452.932,"end":465.712,"text":"那甚至就是會覺得不曉得要做什麼感覺阿本席的直覺是阿經濟循環就是沒有垃圾的意思阿世代的經濟循環阿世代不是在講人嗎"},{"start":467.423,"end":470.125,"text":"所以每個人都必須成為有用的人"},{"start":497.303,"end":517.266,"text":"我也是覺得很疑惑所以我們大家是不是來思考一下如何讓這個民眾能夠更了解這部法案的精神與目的所以第一條本席也是建議大家就要好好的討論一下這偉大的翻轉印法海嘯以及人的經濟循環我很在意這件事情"},{"start":518.166,"end":533.424,"text":"好那最後一點呢就是有關於第15條的健康預期壽命的統計這點的利益非常良好但是我們現行所謂的平均餘命跟這個平均餘命這個差別是在哪裡可不可以回答一下OK好"},{"start":534.706,"end":559.607,"text":"報告委員我們現在目前的整個所謂的通常這是WHO他們也有一個定義就是所謂的Disabled Disabled Health Year就主要指的是屬於需要長照的這是WHO他們有一個特定的一個定義那現在目前就是說我們現在目前的預期壽命當然這是屬於人口學他們的一個定義那我們現在目前我們承認我們現在目前確實有8.585年的這一個"},{"start":562.449,"end":568.894,"text":"市長講的就是我們早就有這個不同世代的這個平均移民的統計啦但是現在在這個草案加上了這個健康預期壽命這到底是要怎麼樣的調整"},{"start":589.57,"end":596.687,"text":"舉例喔就是說身患重病的人他可能可以延續很長的存活時間一直躺在病床上"},{"start":597.822,"end":625.988,"text":"但是因為不健康所以他的品質生活品質就是很差嘛對沒錯那健康與其壽命你要怎麼計算而且健康的定義他是一門專業那這個當然這個世界衛生組織的定義也涉及到就是說精神跟心理的層面是沒錯所以這個將來要發布健康與其壽命相較於平均餘命一定會比較短"},{"start":628.529,"end":645.975,"text":"將來你要怎麼去解釋說明說這兩個估計值是相差越少還是相差越多才能夠凸顯這個國家的進步這個是大家要去思考的問題那這個也是非常的專業我們就是要請專家學者專業人士來規範會比較好啦"},{"start":652.177,"end":674.323,"text":"我能簡單補充一下您剛剛所說確實沒錯現在在國際上面這個其實都還有一些爭論我舉個例子比如說有一個叫做ICOP就是所謂的健康與命的一個估計另外一個是WHO他們自己本身的定義可是在學界裡面其實基本上大概都還有一些不同的看法所以目前有明確的研究方法嗎"},{"start":674.923,"end":675.163,"text":"總體就是說"},{"start":699.982,"end":725.802,"text":"欸這樣說來就是整個中高齡的這個政策齁因為我現在我很不想用壯世代因為按照這個草案的定義我真的覺得人不能成為沒有用的人對沒錯沒錯那欸欸委員對不起我能不能再簡單說一下就是說張委員請坐我要抗議喔剛才你對楊瓊英委員很好他有三倍的時間所以我不要求比照辦理我兩倍就好我剛有在算啊五倍喔對不起那"},{"start":727.944,"end":742.944,"text":"陳瑩﹚陳瑩"},{"start":742.944,"end":762.978,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":763.018,"end":792.401,"text":"好那就是就是說這個內容吼草案內容我們確實有很多的疑問跟自愛難行之處那我想我也相信說我們這個圖法不足以執行啦那我們不應該就是為了要求快然後就突然通過了一部將來這個難以執行的法案所以也謝謝昭緯今天明智的抉擇我們還沒有開始怎麼發言他就說好辦公聽會那我也就自動"},{"start":793.141,"end":793.261,"text":"賴瑞隆"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時10分）謝謝主席。不好意思！因為我實在看不出誰是主責機關，所以我就麻煩今天列席的官員，請大家上台，謝謝。吃便當的就坐著繼續吃，等吃完再過來，慢慢吃，不要噎到了。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：大家好。勞動部最勇敢！你們不要把勞動部長推到麥克風前面。","依據國發會在17日公布的中華民國人口推估，從2024年到2070年的報告，至2030年開始我國的總人口數將低於2,300萬人。統計顯示45歲到65歲的工作人口在2037年就會突破五成，表示勞動人口高齡化將成為一個趨勢，因此，我們今天討論的中高齡相關政策計畫是有它的必要性。","今天這個草案的確有一些需要被討論的問題，首先，如同我剛剛不知道要請誰上台，因為在這部草案裡我們的主責或主管機關並不是很明確，在草案裡寫到由行政院下設壯世代政策辦公室，它統籌整合各目的事業主管機關的權責，並且是由行政院長擔任召集人，所以各機關首長、政委及學者專家擔任委員，按照這樣的一個邏輯，今天站在這裡備詢的理應是行政院長。我本來是想請教召委，如果現在我提出會議詢問，要不要暫停，大家一起等院長來這裡備詢，召委，你要等嗎？我們先等召委一下，好啦！我放過他。按照這個邏輯，今天應該是卓院長要來這裡備詢嘛！我們用辦公室這個層級去實行整個委員制的統整，目前我們好像沒有這樣的慣例吧！應該沒有！因此，以這樣的設計來看，我也不知道未來如何能夠執行得好。舉例而言，部會首長負責的業務被討論的時候，他自己本身又是委員，所以他扮演的角色就會有衝突嘛！哪有代表部會的委員在會議中要報告你的執行成效，然後你又可以提出檢討的意見。本席對於這些兼任委員的機關首長以及政委，你們必須要用這種人格分裂的方式進行角色扮演，我是感到無限的同情啦！針對這一點，不知道哪一位可以來說明一下？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的垂詢，誠如委員剛剛所說的，確實在整個主責方面及相關主管機關的部分有不明確性的問題。其實我們目前在院裡本來就有一個高齡社會白皮書，由政委擔任跨部會之間的協調，到目前為止，老實說，在運作上也相當順暢。可能大家會覺得有若干需要精進之處，但是到目前為止，因應這個問題，就整個組織而言，我想可能是最有效的一個方式。"],["陳委員瑩：雖然你們內部運作順暢，但是等到你們要開始報告的時候、同時又要提出意見的時候，人格分裂的狀態就會呈現出來，反正我就點出這個角色的矛盾，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛我在講的時候看到很多人在點頭，所以我應該是講到了重點。"],["呂次長建德：對對對，沒錯。誠如委員剛剛說的，這個部分確實是不明確，因此，在整個立法上，我們還是覺得恐怕不太適宜。"],["陳委員瑩：對，再好好想一想。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：其次，第二條是壯世代政策的定義，本席認為太過於偏狹。這個草案的明定是強迫大眾認為55歲以上的高齡者一定是能賺、能花又活蹦亂跳、沒有生病的長壽者，按照這個草案裡的定義是這樣喔！每個人就是要像一尾活龍才符合稱為壯世代。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：因此，要協助他們持續成為生產者及消費者，然後提升他們的生活品質，降低社會福利的負擔。我想這樣的定義其實與目前各部會已經在做的政策並沒有區隔，我們是有往那個方向去做了。舉例來說，勞動部主管的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法，這個法不就已經是讓他們持續就業成為經濟的生產者嗎？對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：相較於第一條的立法目的，如海嘯般翻轉的格局，這樣的定義實在是有一點虎頭蛇尾、狗尾續貂啦！本席認為這一點也是大家要重新去審視，你們有沒有要回應一下這個部分？"],["何部長佩珊：委員垂詢的是！你講的問題就是出在這裡，對。"],["陳委員瑩：對，如果沒有能賺、能花、又活蹦亂跳如同一尾活龍就被歧視了嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["陳委員瑩：第三點，這個草案有好多好多的重點，因為重點太多，反而看不出重點在哪裡。我們用這個翻轉銀髮海嘯，人口變遷所生的新社會放在立法精神裡面，從而衍生出實現世代經濟的循環，創造跨齡共榮韌性永續之目標。我想一般民眾的認知可能是很抽象，甚至會有不知道是要做什麼的感覺。至於本席的直覺，經濟循環就是沒有垃圾的意思，而世代的經濟循環，世代不就是在講人嘛！所以每個人都必須成為有用的人。","一般法案的立法目的都很明確，也很少用不是很精準的字詞去描述，例如這裡的新社會是指人口變遷，那麼我要講的是我們現在臺灣有數十萬的新住民同胞加入，難道因為他們的加入，我們現在就算是舊社會嗎？我也是覺得很疑惑！因此，我們大家是不是來思考一下，如何讓民眾能夠更了解這部法案的精神與目的。針對第一條，本席建議大家要好好討論一下，這個偉大的翻轉銀髮海嘯以及人的經濟循環，我很在意這件事情。","最後一點是關於第十五條的健康預期壽命的統計，這點的立意非常良好，但是我們現行所謂的平均餘命與這個平均餘命的差別在哪裡，誰可以回答一下？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，WHO有一個定義，也就是所謂的disabled health year，主要是指需要長照的，這是WHO特定的一個定義。我們現在的預期壽命是屬於人口學的一個定義，而我們也承認確實是有8.5年的不健康餘命，所以目前我們也透過健康臺灣的策略，希望盡快將這個gap縮短。"],["陳委員瑩：就像次長講的，我們早就有不同世代平均餘命的統計，但是現在這個草案加上健康預期壽命，到底是要怎麼樣調整？舉例，現在患重病的人可能可以延續很長的存活時間，一直躺在病床上，但是因為不健康，所以他的生活品質就是很差嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：健康預期壽命要怎麼計算？而且健康的定義是一門專業，在世界衛生組織的定義也涉及到精神與心理的層面。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：將來要發布健康預期壽命相較於平均餘命一定會比較短，那麼將來你要怎麼去解釋說明這兩個估計值是相差越少或相差越多，才能夠凸顯這個國家的進步？這個是大家要去思考的問題，但這個也是非常專業，我們要請專家學者或專業人士來規範會比較好啦！"],["呂次長建德：委員，我簡單補充一下。你剛剛說的確實沒錯，在國際上這個都還有一些爭論，我舉個例子，譬如有一個叫做ICOPE，也就是健康餘命估計，另外一個是WHO自己的定義，但是在學界裡基本上大家都還有一些不同的看法，這個部分我們會……"],["陳委員瑩：目前有明確的研究方法嗎？"],["呂次長建德：到目前為止，就我剛剛說的ICOPE與WHO，它們目前都有一些不同的定義，後續我們會做這個部分更進一步的深化研究。"],["陳委員瑩：所以目前你也是打問號啦！"],["呂次長建德：目前各家都有它自己評分的依據。"],["陳委員瑩：就是疑慮、疑慮這樣子。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：整個中高齡的政策，我很不想用壯世代這個名稱，因為按照這個草案的定義，我真的覺得人不能成為沒有用的人。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯、沒錯。委員，對不起，我能不能再簡單說一下……"],["陳委員瑩：召委，請坐，我要抗議，剛才你對楊瓊瓔委員很好，她有3倍的時間，雖然我不要求比照辦理，只要給我2倍就好，剛剛我有做計算，5倍喔！對不起！"],["主席：5分鐘了。"],["陳委員瑩：5分鐘是0.5倍而已啊！好啦！他就要補充，你就多給他時間吧！"],["呂次長建德：我只是簡單補充，國際上對於退休有一個明確定義，剛剛說是65歲，ILO對中高齡也有明確定義，就是45歲，這個就是國際上的international standard。如果我們要突破，我想可能需要更多的討論，但我只是說這是國際上大家共同的定義，這個可能……"],["陳委員瑩：搞不好我們自己很厲害，研發出一套研究方法。"],["呂次長建德：感謝。"],["陳委員瑩：我們覺得草案內容確實有很多的疑問及窒礙難行之處，而我也相信徒法不足以自行，不應該為了要求快，突然就通過了一部將來難以執行的法案，也謝謝召委今天明智的抉擇，我們還沒開始怎麼發言，他就說要辦公聽會，我也就自動早上程序不發言了。感謝召委，我就把我早上的時間挪到這裡來，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長、次長。","接續請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156139","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156139","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685baf25589ed17c45d56b4c0e929d5f577f5966be1ac5b6e0f963964f54ed6af20b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:56:20 - 12:09:52","影片長度":"00:13:32","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:56:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:09:52+08:00","duration":812,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.03846875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.391593750000002,"end":16.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.12846875,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.782218750000002,"end":33.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.017218750000005,"end":37.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.22346875,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.80471875,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.985968750000005,"end":49.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.60534375,"end":55.229093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.80284375,"end":57.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.283468750000004,"end":63.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.98721875000001,"end":65.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.43846875,"end":66.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.77159375000001,"end":67.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.90221875,"end":74.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.56346875,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.26784375000001,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.32596875,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.51034375,"end":92.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.45534375000001,"end":93.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.72096875000001,"end":95.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.64471875000001,"end":98.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.89721875000001,"end":102.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.19221875000001,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.41159375,"end":132.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.47034375,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.24659375000002,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.84409375,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.99159375000002,"end":145.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.32034375,"end":147.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.66596875000002,"end":149.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.16784375,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.32784375,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.09846875000002,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.24534375000002,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.49721875,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.87221875,"end":261.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.86846875,"end":229.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.82971875000004,"end":264.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.90096875,"end":274.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.45221875000004,"end":280.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.52721875000003,"end":290.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.09096875,"end":294.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.44096875,"end":323.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.36846875000003,"end":297.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.99721875,"end":333.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.24034375,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.97221875,"end":355.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.65471875000003,"end":367.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.75596875,"end":356.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.10596875000005,"end":358.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.38721875000005,"end":372.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.34409375,"end":374.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.54659375,"end":374.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.24659375000005,"end":379.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.80721875,"end":383.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.02596875,"end":398.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.62721875,"end":398.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.87159375000005,"end":399.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.54659375,"end":404.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.56346875,"end":400.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.52096875,"end":401.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.25034375,"end":412.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.31659375000004,"end":425.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.71971875,"end":428.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.17909375000005,"end":435.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.71846875000006,"end":434.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.18659375000004,"end":440.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.48596875000004,"end":437.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.84846875000005,"end":440.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.05909375000005,"end":443.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.26534375000006,"end":448.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.24346875000003,"end":486.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.12659375000004,"end":468.27846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.68909375000004,"end":491.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.54471875,"end":495.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.03784375000004,"end":496.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.07159375000003,"end":499.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.86409375000005,"end":502.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.70346875,"end":513.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.37721875000005,"end":511.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.1997187500001,"end":513.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.6215937500001,"end":518.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.23721875,"end":516.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":518.36346875,"end":526.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.77159375,"end":527.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.47596875,"end":542.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.0053437500001,"end":543.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.20346875,"end":543.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.35534375,"end":545.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.5322187500001,"end":545.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.86971875,"end":549.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.6328437500001,"end":550.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.2065937500001,"end":556.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.57284375,"end":556.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.43346875,"end":563.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.06534375,"end":563.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.48721875,"end":564.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.5503437500001,"end":592.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.44471875,"end":602.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":596.08971875,"end":596.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":601.8272187499999,"end":604.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.6203437500001,"end":604.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.7634687500001,"end":609.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.2309687500001,"end":638.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":612.6272187500001,"end":612.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.6609687499999,"end":612.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":612.67784375,"end":612.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.9140937500001,"end":613.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.0828437499999,"end":613.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.79971875,"end":616.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":620.2209687500001,"end":620.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":621.7734687500001,"end":623.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":623.52846875,"end":624.1865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":631.2065937500001,"end":631.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":633.06284375,"end":634.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.82971875,"end":642.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.8334687500001,"end":650.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.8490937500001,"end":654.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.4097187500001,"end":663.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.1340937500001,"end":663.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.2140937500001,"end":696.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.3103437500001,"end":707.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.36346875,"end":714.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.53534375,"end":727.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.90034375,"end":731.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.5790937500001,"end":743.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.3915937500001,"end":747.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.3572187500001,"end":748.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.94784375,"end":747.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.6059687500001,"end":752.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.4028437500001,"end":752.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.8584687500002,"end":755.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.4740937500001,"end":756.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.57096875,"end":763.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.4265937499999,"end":765.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.3840937500001,"end":807.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.94471875,"end":768.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.50159375,"end":768.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":768.53534375,"end":768.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.5959687500001,"end":787.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.9922187500001,"end":788.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.3403437500001,"end":801.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":801.72846875,"end":801.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.9140937500001,"end":802.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.6772187500001,"end":805.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":805.6940937500001,"end":805.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.62221875,"end":806.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":806.63909375,"end":806.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.65596875,"end":806.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":806.6728437500001,"end":807.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":807.61784375,"end":808.8328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.1784687500001,"end":811.83659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.128,"end":12.098,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊發言首先請勞動部、衛福部、經濟部我們一起來討論這個案"},{"start":24.778,"end":44.346,"text":"好 謝謝壯世代成為現在職場非常熱門關鍵字過去呢我們中年轉職不易到半途沒有人要請所以呢企業普遍喜歡運用這個年輕人但是我們也看到少子化的問題國發會在10月17號做了一個公佈2020年到2070年"},{"start":51.229,"end":74.585,"text":"2070年我們會減少人口800多萬人換句話說2070年國發會所公布的我們臺灣只剩下1500人CIA的公布美國中情局公布我們是全世界少子化生育能力第一名"},{"start":75.646,"end":98.217,"text":"最後一名所以剛剛我也跟國防會的主委在討論要怎麼樣去解決這個問題那所以提出了壯世代之所以必須要有這個法也就是讓政府能夠去看到這個問題而且也有所依歸怎麼樣去做大家贊不贊同這樣的一個論點"},{"start":100.029,"end":128.925,"text":"三位都頻頻的點頭OK委員我非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心我也非常佩服委員的這個的vision那我想剛剛何部長剛剛也說了就是說作為一個反年齡歧視我想這是一個好的idea那可是現在有個問題現在就是說他現在目前這一個所謂的壯世代他有三個不明確第一個是整個學術概念上不明確第二個是整個法律概念不明確第三個是政策適用上不明確"},{"start":129.825,"end":147.467,"text":"您現在所回答的這三件我要感謝英明的召集人排定了這個議程因為我們已經看到臺灣面臨的困境問題在全世界生育率世界最後一名看到我們的人口"},{"start":149.257,"end":168.989,"text":"2070年我們只有1500萬人看到這樣子的一個憂心所以提出這樣的一個方針透過我們的法律案透過大家檢討所以我希望待會回答的各部會首長代表人你們應該要就針對既然你們剛剛三個都頻頻點頭就針對我們討論的議案"},{"start":175.333,"end":205.333,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":206.054,"end":221.508,"text":"給他擋起來,這樣子不好的所以呢你們也點頭我們就繼續來討論台灣的人口紅利剛剛我說的那個數字我們已經逐漸消失我又看到2023年勞動高齡的這個勞動的報告當中台灣65歲65歲的高齡者參與的只有9.9"},{"start":229.955,"end":245.66,"text":" 那我們要看到全世界現在國外經濟部我們全部都要跟世界接軌所以我們也看到其他各國他們的作為這才是一個有為的政府的部門應當要做的所以我們看到我們只有9.9勞動部長在這裡我們看到韓國38.3日本25.7美國19.2"},{"start":254.422,"end":262.291,"text":"那我們在少子化的情況又人口一直下降的情況我們要怎麼樣來加入我們的這個產業人口、勞動人口"},{"start":271.62,"end":289.506,"text":"世界各國有這樣的比例我們是10%都不到在這樣的情況之下我們要怎麼樣去因應請教勞動部長各位委員報告其實我們從109年中高齡專法設立以來每年平均增加10萬人到現在已經增加38萬人"},{"start":294.45,"end":306.441,"text":"您的方案您有努力我們看到但是我們一定要結果論你現在所做的還是全世界最低那我們有什麼精精方案可以滾動式的去檢討加速對"},{"start":308.403,"end":333.155,"text":"這也就是為什麼我們的預算要重溢該當部主因為立法院不可以給你加預算我們錢要花在刀口上我希望可以聽到您也就是你在努力當中現在你所做的都對但是我們的答案是僅有9.9我們跟世界各國比例差那麼多我們還有什麼因應方案因為"},{"start":334.275,"end":336.977,"text":"現在正在努力加速推出各樣的獎補助措施"},{"start":357.573,"end":368.578,"text":"對,來,對,包括55 Plus,壯世代就業促進措施,我們針對還有包括婦女在就業,還有,嘿,就是婦女在這個中高齡的族群。對,我們在這方面都有給僱主,也有給勞工,都有獎勵措施。"},{"start":384.645,"end":403.575,"text":"勞動部你把你進行方案就本席所提出我們65歲以上的高齡者勞動參與率只有9.9跟世界各國差距那麼大的時候你要怎麼樣進行方案你給本席好 謝謝我馬上就可以提供給您了馬上給我提供本席本席不答應你這樣子的回覆"},{"start":405.322,"end":424.816,"text":"你現在是全世界最低你還把現在有的剛剛本席在講的精進方案你把你現在做的還是一樣9.9啊本席要你的你已經做了我也給你贊許但是你要去精進方案啊在這裡回答不要隨隨便便"},{"start":425.997,"end":426.838,"text":"議員吳春城等42人擬具"},{"start":444.329,"end":465.639,"text":"不健康與命的部分因為我們要整體性橫向全部來連結我們看到65歲以上的高年人口我們是468萬人占總人口的20%而且一直在增長那我們看到內政部所公布2023年平均與命我也嚇一跳你們男生只有76.94要小心"},{"start":468.24,"end":490.431,"text":"女生 83.74平均是多少?平均是80.23雖然我們有叫前年度增加0.39那麼其中在這樣的一個年齡我們看到一個數字讓我會緊張我們國人平均不健康的餘命是高達8.5年"},{"start":492.893,"end":499.795,"text":"這個跟世界各國,我們的召集人是專家這個跟世界各國來比較,我們又是第一名"},{"start":500.919,"end":526.762,"text":"也是糟糕的第一名所以在這樣的一個情況之下我要請教我們衛福部市長部健康的餘命高達8.5年我們要怎麼樣去降低因為這個會牽扯到我們的勞動力怎麼降低我們要怎麼降低非常感謝委員垂詢我想大概我們現在目前賴總統他有一個健康台灣的一個方案對你十二旗艦"},{"start":527.563,"end":528.084,"text":"務必要加速!"},{"start":543.542,"end":562.993,"text":"因為你已經8.5 8.5年跟世界各國來比我們是拉太長了所以在這樣的情況之下怎麼樣你的2.0必須要速度加快到3.0世界訊息萬變我們如果依照原來的歸宿速度這是跟不上潮流的怎麼樣加強"},{"start":564.854,"end":564.874,"text":"市長﹖"},{"start":592.998,"end":609.527,"text":"你這個回答本席也沒有辦法接受因為你的兩萬五到三萬九這是循序漸進多久時間累計上來我們再加上近大概八年的時間對你越講大家越沒有辦法接受嘛所以我們看待的是"},{"start":610.347,"end":636.566,"text":"我們目前所面臨到的困境你要怎麼樣進進跟剛剛勞動部一樣我希望就針對我們不健康的平均餘命8.5年你們去進進方案好不好這個非常重要因為你政府有政策出來民眾會跟著走對不對我們已經看到答案不能就攤在那裡好不好你去進進那個方案給本席最後一個議題我覺得非常的重要長壽新經濟"},{"start":640.275,"end":640.456,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":664.378,"end":669.822,"text":"市長在這裡我們針對於長壽新經濟你政府要怎麼樣去協助這些的產業你怎麼樣去培植新創的這個產業鏈能夠達到我們消費者既然你知道會消費的人就是在壯世代55歲以上這一環那我們要怎麼樣去推動長壽經濟發展"},{"start":688.914,"end":689.034,"text":"請教次長。"},{"start":707.415,"end":727.824,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":727.824,"end":743.422,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":743.602,"end":750.647,"text":"市長你剛剛回答的是很美很美的一個境界但是這個計劃要能夠落實這個方案是怎麼樣你們大概多久時間可以把你這個長壽新經濟的商機的方案一個月"},{"start":765.376,"end":765.476,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":784.582,"end":811.817,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時56分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，首先請勞動部、衛福部與經濟部，我們一起來討論這個案。","壯世代成為現在職場非常熱門的關鍵字，過去我們中年轉職沒有人要僱用，因為企業普遍喜歡僱用年輕人，但是我們也看到少子化的問題，國發會在10月17日公布，2024年到2070年我們會減少八百多萬的人口，換句話說，依照國發會公布的數字，2070年我們臺灣只剩下1,500萬人。美國中情局CIA公布，我們是全世界少子化的第一名、生育率是最後一名。剛剛我也與國發會主委討論如何解決這個問題，今天之所以提出壯世代這個法，其實是要讓政府看到這個問題，而且也能有所依歸，該怎麼樣去做，大家贊不贊同這樣的論點？三位都頻頻地點頭！"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對這個問題的關心，也非常佩服委員的vision！剛剛何部長也表示訂定了反年齡歧視的規定，我想這是一個好的idea，但現在有一個問題，所謂的壯世代有3個不明確，第一個是整個學術概念上不明確，第二個是整個法律概念不明確，第三個是政策適用上不明確。我們做為一個法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在回答的這三件，我要感謝英明的召集人，排定了這個議程，因為我們已經看到臺灣面臨的困境問題，生育率是全世界的最後一名，看到我們在2070年的人口將只剩下1,500萬人，看到這樣令人憂心的狀況，所以提出這樣的方針，透過我們的法律案讓大家一起檢討。因此，我希望待會回答的各部會首長、代表人，既然剛才你們三個都頻頻點頭，那就針對我們討論的議案，它是一個新的東西，本來我們立法院提出的討論，也就是互相共同去討論，討論才能擦出這個火花，應對臺灣目前所面對的困境，而不是只有一句話說，這個法律位階不明確，它本來就沒有，當然不明確嘛！這個就是現在要討論的啊！對不對？所以我希望我們的討論是有內容的，而不是只有一個擋牆將它擋起來，這樣是不好的。","既然你們也點頭，我們就繼續來討論。臺灣的人口紅利，剛剛我說的那個數字已經逐漸消失，而我又看到2023年高齡的勞動報告中提到，臺灣65歲以上的高齡者參與率只有9.9%；我們再來看看全世界，因為無論是國發會或經濟部現在都應該要與世界接軌，所以我們也該看看其他各國的作為，這樣才是一個有為政府的部門應當要做的。今天勞動部長也在這裡，我們看到臺灣只有9.9%，但是韓國有38.3%、日本有25.7%、美國有19.2%，因此，我們在少子化的情況下、在人口一直下降的情況下，該如何增加我們的產業人口、勞動人口？看到世界各國有這樣的比例，而我們卻連10%都不到，在這樣的情況下，是否應該要有樣學樣，所以我們要怎麼樣去因應，請教勞動部長？"],["何部長佩珊：報告委員，其實我們從109年中高齡專法設立以來，每年平均增加10萬人，到現在已經增加38萬的中高齡就業人口。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我告訴部長，您的方案、你的努力，我們看到了。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我們一定要結果論，你現在做的成果還是全世界最低，我們有什麼精進方案可以滾動式地加速檢討，這也是為什麼我們的預算要重議，該當不足的，立法院並不能幫你加預算，而且我們的錢要花在刀口上。現在你努力做的都對，但我們看到的結果是僅有9.9%，與世界各國的比例相差那麼多，所以我們還有什麼因應方案？衛福部也在這裡，我們有全世界最好的健保，這個要怎麼辦？我們要如何運用這些有效的人才，請說明。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們正在努力加速推出各樣的獎補助措施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：努力加速？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：新的方案呢？"],["何部長佩珊：包括55Plus壯世代就業促進措施、包括婦女再就業，也就是中高齡族群的婦女。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這也是本席一直與你討論的，不要讓她因為生了一個孩子就回不了職場，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要如何讓她能夠對職場環境放心，這樣才能回得了啊！"],["何部長佩珊：這方面無論是雇主或勞工都有獎勵措施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：勞動部，針對本席提出的65歲以上高齡者勞動參與率只有9.9%，與世界各國差距那麼大的情況下，你要提出什麼樣的精進方案，提供給本席。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。委員，我會提供給你。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久的時間？"],["何部長佩珊：馬上就可以提供給你了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：馬上就可以提供給本席？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席不答應你這樣的回復，現在你已經是全世界最低了，還要把現有正在做的方案提出來，這樣還是只有9.9%啊！對於你已經做的，本席也給你讚許，但是你要有精進方案啊！在這裡回答不要隨隨便便！已經告訴你是9.9%，不生氣都不行！對不對？你去想看看精進方案，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間告訴本席？"],["何部長佩珊：2個禮拜內。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，2個禮拜內告訴本席你的精進方案。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來是衛福部，關於不健康餘命的部分，我們要整體橫向連結，然而我們看到65歲以上的高齡人口有468萬人，占總人口的20%，而且一直在增長。看到內政部公布2023年的平均餘命，我也嚇一跳，你們男生只有76.94歲，要小心！女生是83.74歲，平均是多少？平均是80.23歲。雖然我們比前年度增加了0.39歲，但是在其中又看到一個數字讓我感到緊張，我們國人的平均不健康餘命高達8.5年，這個與世界各國相比，我們的召集人是專家，我們又是第一名，也是糟糕的第一名。在這樣的情況之下，我要請教衛福部，次長，不健康餘命高達8.5年，我們要怎麼樣去降低？因為這個會牽扯到我們的勞動力，怎麼降低？我們要怎麼降低？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員垂詢，目前賴總統有一個健康臺灣的方案，這裡面大概有三個主要的策略，第一個是健康的要讓他更健康，如果有兩種以上的慢性病就是亞健康，第三個就是長照的部分，我們分門別類，長照的部分目前已經做到2.0，準備要升級到3.0，另外……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：務必要加速。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為現在已經是8.5年了。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：8.5年與世界各國相比，我們是拉太長了。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在這樣的情況之下，你必須加快速度從2.0升級到3.0。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：世界瞬息萬變，如果我們還是依照原來龜速的速度，這樣是跟不上潮流的。"],["呂次長建德：是的，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼樣加快速度？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前我們是將預算增加，另外也報告委員非常關心的一個部分，剛剛何部長也說了，我們的2.0，向委員報告一個數字，原先在2016年剛推出的時候是2萬5，到目前為止已經升到9萬5，這是第一個。第二個，薪資本來是22k，現在已經要達到3萬9，其實這裡面有很多是聘相關的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，對於你的這個回答，本席也沒辦法接受，因為你說的2萬5升到3萬9是循序漸進多久的時間累積上來的？"],["呂次長建德：將近8年的時間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你越講大家就越沒辦法接受。現在我們看待的是我們目前面臨到的困境，你要怎麼樣精進？像剛剛的勞動部一樣，我希望你針對我們的不健康平均餘命8.5年提出精進方案，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是非常重要的。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：政府有政策出來之後，民眾就會跟著走，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們已經看到答案，不能就攤在那裡，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要提出精進方案給本席。"],["呂次長建德：OK，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題非常地重要，長壽新經濟。經濟部也在這裡，我們看到壯世代有三分之一的人口及三分之二的財富，顯示我們壯世代的消費力是最強的，你現在去看所有在走路、運動的，幾乎都是這個壯世代的人口，有的提早退休要找第二春的、要找工作環境的、要找工作生活的都在這裡。次長在這裡，針對長壽新經濟，政府要怎麼樣協助這些產業、怎麼樣培植新創的產業鏈？既然你知道能夠消費的人就是壯世代55歲以上的這一環，我們要怎麼樣推動長壽經濟發展，這也是我們一個很重要的經濟來源，尤其臺灣太美了，像我們臺中山海屯又有文化、又有海港、又有空港，都非常的方便，你要怎麼樣抓住壯世代長壽新經濟的商機，請教次長？"],["連次長錦漳：這個健康產業是我們部長的一個重大政策，因此目前我們也極力從飲食、運動、智慧醫療三方面著手，讓這些人活得更健康、更有活力。針對剛才委員講的那些不健康餘命等等比較不好的，我們要讓他怎麼在生活中活得更有尊嚴，甚至照顧的人可以更省力，這個輔具的發展也是我們後續在健康產業做的輔導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，你剛剛回答的是很美很美的一個境界。"],["連次長錦漳：現在都有action plan在做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是這個plan要能夠落實。"],["連次長錦漳：會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個方案是怎麼樣，不知道！你們大概多久時間可以把長壽新經濟商機的方案……"],["連次長錦漳：1個月把方案給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1個月？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為這整個連動效應非常大，而且我們要就地取材、取我們的優點，55歲以上有經濟能力消費的，我們來協助他，也協助整個產業的發展，像現在有很多老人飲食的餐廳，譬如東西會燉得比較爛或是它的坡道怎麼樣等等，如果政府能夠來協助、來推廣，可以讓我們全民的生活不斷提升，而且協助整個產業，所以你一個月內要把這些方案給本席。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望一起來推動長壽新經濟的商機，好嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊委員。","接續請陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156138","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156138","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b2fd30c3e7b9ecf3c982770301154c67d5966be1ac5b6e0f97766c67842c2092a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:13:34 - 12:22:47","影片長度":"00:09:13","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:13:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:22:47+08:00","duration":553,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.36659375,"end":14.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.931593750000001,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.875343750000003,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.938468750000002,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.30409375,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.924093750000004,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.125968750000006,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.48409375,"end":50.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.66971875,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.689718750000004,"end":64.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.76346875,"end":103.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.60971875000001,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.65971875000001,"end":108.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.55409375,"end":116.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.58659375,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.64971875,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.34971875000001,"end":120.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.75471875000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.92409375,"end":144.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.54846875,"end":144.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.58221875,"end":144.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.61596875,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.96596875,"end":146.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.35409375,"end":146.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.38784375,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.43846875,"end":146.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.45534375,"end":146.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.48909375,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.97409375,"end":181.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.70221875000001,"end":159.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.33659375000002,"end":179.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.39534375000002,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.48284375,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.02284375000002,"end":195.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.67534375000002,"end":201.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.92846875,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.67096875000001,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.67909375000002,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.24846875,"end":202.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.48034375,"end":204.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.15096875,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.62346875,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.94346875000002,"end":209.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.77034375000002,"end":209.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.90534375000001,"end":209.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.93909375,"end":210.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.00659375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.22596875000002,"end":212.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.11159375000003,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.13659375,"end":217.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.87471875000003,"end":241.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.69534375,"end":230.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.95971875,"end":246.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.41471875000002,"end":251.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.86971875,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.16034375,"end":252.27846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.40471875000003,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.70846875,"end":254.80971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.84346875000003,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.99534375000002,"end":255.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.58596875,"end":257.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.79221875,"end":260.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.80034375,"end":265.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.59284375000004,"end":270.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.33471875000004,"end":271.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.88721875000005,"end":275.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.70096875,"end":277.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.94534375,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.41784375000003,"end":280.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.01659375,"end":288.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.59346875,"end":328.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.78721875,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.26721875000004,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.85721875,"end":328.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.87409375000004,"end":336.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.63659375000003,"end":340.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.63596875,"end":341.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.17159375,"end":365.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.52534375000005,"end":346.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.54346875000005,"end":367.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.34909375,"end":370.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.36971875,"end":373.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.26784375,"end":376.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.78221875,"end":381.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.96284375000005,"end":382.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.78971875,"end":405.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.81159375000004,"end":411.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.10659375,"end":411.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.79784375,"end":412.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.42221875,"end":412.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.70909375,"end":414.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.38409375000003,"end":423.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.30221875,"end":430.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.96784375000004,"end":431.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.81159375000004,"end":438.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.51096875,"end":441.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.76784375000005,"end":442.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.23596875000004,"end":447.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.06221875000006,"end":451.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.62284375,"end":452.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.73221875,"end":455.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.11159375000005,"end":458.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.96346875,"end":460.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.36409375000005,"end":460.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.66784375000003,"end":493.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.18596875000003,"end":499.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.40846875000005,"end":501.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.67409375000005,"end":502.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.04096875000005,"end":515.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.14034375,"end":530.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.27284375,"end":546.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.4584687500001,"end":531.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.8797187499999,"end":536.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.7309687500001,"end":543.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.8190937500001,"end":553.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.10534375,"end":550.39221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.369,"end":24.211,"text":"請蔡議員謝謝主席那我們是不是請國發會請國會留主委蔡委員好"},{"start":25.237,"end":31.202,"text":"主委,這個國發會說2030年有48萬的勞動力缺口那這個缺口在2023年在2028年要補足這個勞動力缺口就是35萬那目前還有20萬的差額所以這20萬的差額你們是說要怎麼去補回來"},{"start":51.148,"end":68.033,"text":"二十萬差額裡面有八萬是屬於勞動力那有十二萬是屬於技術能力那我們會這個分工下來就是希望把這個12萬的這個這個白領的這個技術人才我們把它"},{"start":69.414,"end":88.726,"text":"會以這個委員長吸引人才跟留住我們的僑外生兩個方向來做那僑外生我們現在一年可以新進的已經到了2萬那過去是48.1%會留下來那我們明年請了教育部幫忙會在每個學校設立一個就業輔導員我們希望能夠有到八成到九成的人留下來這樣的話呢"},{"start":90.612,"end":106.594,"text":"再加上我們國外攬才加上我們最近會修法我們下禮拜會公開預覽然後放寬外籍人士進來那這些多元管道我們認為應該是沒有問題可以達到我們要的目標。」主委你認為現在橋外生的優勢是怎樣?"},{"start":108.652,"end":122.069,"text":"主要的問題在於是我們沒有足夠的人以2028年35萬來看我們的畢業生只有15萬就怎麼樣就沒有了當然啊所以喬外森的最大優勢是這樣"},{"start":125.593,"end":147.072,"text":"有些僑生他本身就會中文能力就很不錯那至少這些人在台灣都讀過書了解台灣的文化了解台灣的社會秩序那我們協助他們留下來的話可以幫助我們可以做得更好會比那些沒待過台灣的更容易被留下來那目前來說這些僑外生他們留下來的意願呢?"},{"start":148.175,"end":166.475,"text":"目前的意願是很高的那我們現在怎麼去有更多的法令讓他們可以更容易找到工作所以我們現在也放寬到他畢業以後他有兩年找工作的期間就不會那麼快要逼回去那另外我們還做了一件事情就是全球現在有3500萬的數位牧民就是他用"},{"start":167.175,"end":194.855,"text":"數位技能在家工作的那我們希望把他吸引進來然後也留下至少我們希望在2018年之前有10萬人進來留下一萬人對所以政策上就是說跟兩個縣市談好了要做實驗橋外生要他們是需要工作嘛沒有工作是沒辦法留下來啊對對對那所以事實上他們如果在大學就在念書的時候可以打工每個禮拜是20個小時"},{"start":197.118,"end":213.744,"text":"現在是就我了解是就剛才可以打工的對是可以求外生可以打工對但是你說你放寬兩年讓他這兩年可以去找工作那找工作的期間的收入呢"},{"start":215.182,"end":215.722,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":240.04,"end":242.282,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":259.938,"end":279.99,"text":"呃要嫁接齁這個僱主齁跟僑外生齁他們的呃這個平台對不對對你們的平台是要怎麼這樣就是說好我今天我我是產業那我有勞動力的需求那我要怎麼去找到這些僑外生還是要等著僑外生來找我"},{"start":281.372,"end":308.32,"text":"我們現在是第一個我們這個是由教育部會協助在這些學校設就業輔導專員我們希望從學校是最快因為他還沒離開那透過學校的就業輔導單位然後有專員來協助這些橋外生那原來這種事不是每個學校都有有這樣的人力那所以現在會有那第二個部分是我們開始透過經濟部去接洽企業"},{"start":310.041,"end":327.539,"text":"像很多的企業就開始預先去找這些橋外生包括前一陣子經濟部也媒介了這個台電要修這個電網的這些廠商去找橋外生然後開始進行訓練所以我們是從學校的角度跟企業的角度我們雙軌並行"},{"start":328.956,"end":338.323,"text":"但是現在還是有一個問題就是說我們現在要求的僱主他有一個門檻的要求就是他的資本額要大500萬或是營業額是1000萬以上那"},{"start":342.776,"end":366.885,"text":"這兩個是貨所以兩個中有達到一個但是我要強調的是說你定資本額500萬以上的企業事實上在我們全國的稅籍登記的資料它只有占18%所以相對的就是還有另外82%的它是不在500萬以上當然這部分它可能就要需要用營業額1000萬去做它第二個要件"},{"start":367.445,"end":378.999,"text":"那你們這樣看起來在這兩個要件之下大概國內有多少比例的企業可以符合可以符合他可以聘請喬愛森各位委員報告這部分有一些鬆綁我們請勞動部做說明"},{"start":383.184,"end":390.674,"text":"委員是跟您報告一下基本上為了要配合國發會的攬才政策所以我們在111跟112已經陸續放寬了包括新創事業5加2產業還有六大核心戰略產業這些產業的這個500萬跟1000萬的限制我們都已經鬆綁了"},{"start":400.106,"end":422.921,"text":"那這些產業大概已經佔到專業及技術人才裡面所以你說未來五百萬跟一千萬都沒有限制?都打開?等於是所有的企業都可以?重點產業那如果說還有在這個業別以外的那目的事業主管機關認為有需要我們有一個會商機制經會商之後一樣可以打開"},{"start":424.372,"end":452.314,"text":"所以目前這個部分應該是已經解決了大部分喬惠孫所造成的一些就業上的困擾好那我再就教主委一個問題啦是關於移工嘛就是不是喬惠孫是單純的移工事實上很多移工朋友事實上跟我反映你包括日本跟韓國他們現在都已經開放說你到比方說到日本去移工他是可以帶他的家屬"},{"start":453.786,"end":480.973,"text":"直接都可以到日本去帶家屬去而且家屬過去也可以工作那如果這一個家屬的工作有發生問題的時候當然就會有一點連坐法連著移工也一併要被遣送回去那個是罰則的部分但是我們講他開的這一個門就是說移工他可以帶著他的家屬一方面讓移工他們不用跟他的家人這個"},{"start":482.373,"end":499.546,"text":"隔著非常遠的距離會有思鄉之苦。」第二個因為移工他的家人也過來他會希望在台灣有更安定的生活他也尋求更安定的工作所以他的工作態度或者是他們會盡量去避免"},{"start":501.308,"end":514.925,"text":"違法避免犯規因為連坐的一個結果會變成他整個他的比如比方說他的爸爸媽媽兄弟姊妹來都要相對的要被送回去那我們台灣有可能走到這一步嗎?"},{"start":515.746,"end":528.95,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們現在我們這次的修法裡面會把中階技術人才納進來就是中階技術的移工包括具備一定技術能力的焊接、模具這些我們都會納進來他就會適用這條"},{"start":531.371,"end":552.947,"text":"所以他未來就是可以引他的家屬進來他的家屬來後就在台灣一樣是定居然後一樣可以找工作對他會適用到我們的攬才專法裡面好那我蠻期待的我希望這個文字如果形成文字後可以給我們辦公室是的我們預計我們下禮拜會公開預覽那我們也送一份到您辦公室好謝謝主委好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":803,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時13分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，國發會說2030年有48萬的勞動力缺口，那這個缺口在2028年要補足35萬，目前還有20萬的差額，所以這20萬的差額，你們要怎麼補回來？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這20萬差額裡有8萬是屬於勞動力，有12萬是屬於技術能力，我們分工下來，就是希望把這12萬的白領技術人才，用我們說的吸引人才跟留住僑外生這兩個方向來做。僑外生我們現在一年可以新進的已經到了2萬，過去是48.1%會留下來，明年我們請了教育部幫忙，會在每個學校設立一個就業輔導員，希望能夠有八到九成的人留下來，這樣再加上我們的國外攬才和最近會修法，我們下禮拜會公告、公開預覽，放寬外籍人士進來。以上這些多元管道，我們認為應該是沒有問題，可以達到我們要的目標。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，你認為現在僑外生的優勢怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主要的問題在於我們沒有足夠的人，以2028年35萬來看，我們的畢業生只有15萬就沒有了。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以僑外生……"],["蔡委員易餘：這本身是少子化的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以僑外生最大的優勢是，有些僑生本身中文能力就很不錯，至少這些人在臺灣都讀過書，了解臺灣的文化，了解臺灣的社會秩序。我們協助他們留下來的話可以做得更好，會比沒待過臺灣的更容易被留下來。"],["蔡委員易餘：目前這些僑外生他們留下來的意願呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前的意願是很高的，現在是怎麼樣有更多的法令，讓他們可以更容易找到工作，所以我們現在也放寬到他畢業以後，有兩年找工作的期間，就不會那麼快要逼回去。另外我們還做了一件事情，就是全球現在有3,500萬的數位牧民，就是他用數位技能在家工作的，我們希望把他吸引進來，希望在2028年之前，至少有10萬人進來，能留下1萬人。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，所以政策上就是說……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們也跟兩個縣市談好了，就是要做實驗。"],["蔡委員易餘：僑外生他們是需要工作嘛！沒有工作他們沒辦法留下來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以事實上他們如果在大學，就是在念書的時候可以打工，每個禮拜是20個小時……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在就我了解是可以打工的。"],["蔡委員易餘：僑外生可以打工嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是你說放寬兩年，他這兩年可以去找工作，那找工作期間的收入呢？可以繼續打工嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這個需要修法讓他可以打工，上個會期委員就有質詢過，所以下個禮拜我們會把新的法案公開預覽，希望在12月的時候能送進大院來審，那麼明年就可以開放。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是說他如果有打工，就讓他繼續先打工，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為他找不到工作，可以至少在7-11等地方，先有一個收入。"],["蔡委員易餘：先有一個穩定的收入，然後再去找他真正需要的工作。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，第二個是關於嫁接雇主跟僑外生的平台，你們的平台是要怎麼樣？譬如今天我是產業，我有勞動力的需求，要怎麼去找到這些僑外生，還是要等著僑外生來找我？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第一，教育部會協助在這些學校設就業輔導專員，我們希望從學校是最快，因為他還沒離開，透過學校的就業輔導單位，有專員來協助這些僑外生，原來這不是每個學校都有這樣的人力，現在會有。第二部分是我們開始透過經濟部去接洽企業，現在有很多的企業開始預先去找這些僑外生，包括前陣子經濟部也媒介台電要修電網的這些廠商，去找僑外生開始進行訓練，所以我們是從學校跟企業的角度雙軌並行。"],["蔡委員易餘：但現在還是有一個問題，我們現在要求的雇主有一個門檻，就是他的資本額要達500萬，或營業額是1,000萬以上，這兩個是「或」，所以是兩者中有達到一個，但我要強調的是，你訂資本額500萬以上的企業，事實上在我們全國稅籍登記的資料只占18%，相對就是還有另外82%不在500萬以上。當然這部分可能就需要用營業額1,000萬去做第二個要件，這樣看起來，在這兩個要件之下，國內大概有多少比例的企業可以符合聘請僑外生？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，這部分有一些鬆綁，我們請勞動部說明。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。"],["黃副署長齡玉：委員跟您報告，基本上為了要配合國發會的攬才政策，我們在111跟112已經陸續放寬了包括新創事業、5+2產業，還有六大核心戰略產業，這些產業500萬跟1,000萬的限制都已經鬆綁了，而這些產業大概已經占到專業及技術人才的八成。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以你說未來500萬跟這個1,000萬都沒有限制了？"],["黃副署長齡玉：是，目前已經打開。"],["蔡委員易餘：都打開？是所有的企業？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：重點產業。"],["黃副署長齡玉：重點產業目前都打開，如果還有在這個業別以外的，目的事業主管機關認為有需要，我們有一個會商機制，經會商之後一樣可以打開，所以目前應該是已經解決了大部分僑外生一些就業上的困擾。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那我再就教主委一個問題，是關於移工，不是僑外生，是單純的移工。事實上很多移工朋友都跟我反映，包括日本跟韓國，他們現在都已經開放，比方到日本的移工可以帶他的家屬直接到日本，而且家屬過去也可以工作，如果這個家屬的工作有發生問題，當然就會有一點連坐法，連這個移工也一併要被遣送回去，這是罰則的部分。但是他開了這個門，就是移工可以帶著他的家屬，一方面讓移工不用跟家人隔著非常遠的距離，會有思鄉之苦。第二，因為移工的家人也過來，他會希望在臺灣有更安定的生活，也會尋求更安定的工作，所以他的工作態度，或是他們會儘量去避免違法、犯規，因為連坐的結果，會變成比方說爸爸、媽媽、兄弟姐妹等，都相對的要被送回去，我們臺灣有可能走到這一步嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們這次的修法裡面，會把中階技術人才納進來，就是中階技術的移工，包括具備一定技術能力的焊接、模具這些，我們都會納進來，他就會適用這條。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以他未來就是可以帶他的家屬進來，家屬過來後在臺灣一樣是定居，一樣可以找工作？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，他會適用到我們的攬才專法。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那我滿期待的，我希望形成文字後可以給我們辦公室。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，我們預計下禮拜會公開預覽，也會送一份到您辦公室。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，主委先請回座。","現在休息，下午2點繼續開會。","休息（12時23分）","繼續開會（14時）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","下一位請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156137","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156137","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b8700494691005a50acf2ea2eceb6ef265966be1ac5b6e0f9f8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:13:35 - 12:20:51","影片長度":"00:07:16","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:13:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:20:51+08:00","duration":436,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.55409375,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.6590937500000003,"end":4.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.31596875,"end":14.543468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.58159375,"end":14.543468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.543468750000002,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.57721875,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.180343750000002,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.59721875,"end":22.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.31409375,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":29.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.625343750000003,"end":33.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.10596875,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.71721875,"end":37.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.34971875,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.70784375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.91846875,"end":46.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.690343750000004,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.71534375,"end":51.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.55034375,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.61284375,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.60784375,"end":62.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.16034375,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.83034375,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.39534375000001,"end":72.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.02784375,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.22159375000001,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.83284375000001,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.35159375,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.34284375,"end":84.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.03034375,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.69221875000001,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.90284375,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.53534375000001,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.23096875,"end":98.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.81284375000001,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.31471875000001,"end":102.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.23846875000001,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.15784375000001,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.65971875000001,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.34721875000001,"end":110.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.91659375,"end":111.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.60409375,"end":113.31284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.02159375000001,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.29096875,"end":121.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.23971875000001,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.65284375,"end":126.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.96471875,"end":128.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.44534375,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.93409375000002,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":139.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.00471875,"end":145.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.53534375,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.57721875000001,"end":150.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.93971875,"end":153.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.35284375,"end":158.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.72346875000002,"end":164.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.27096875,"end":167.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.34659375,"end":170.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.53159375,"end":172.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.43846875,"end":176.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.25221875,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.07034375,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.39909375000002,"end":186.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.36034375,"end":187.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.39409375000002,"end":187.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.41909375,"end":191.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.78159375,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.50221875000003,"end":198.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.34534375,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.97221875000002,"end":222.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.91596875000002,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.11846875,"end":225.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.70034375,"end":227.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.28221875000003,"end":230.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.30284375000002,"end":233.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.25596875000002,"end":236.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.65221875,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.63096875000002,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.03159375,"end":239.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.16221875000002,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.17909375000002,"end":241.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.33909375000002,"end":262.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.24534375000002,"end":253.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.40409375,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.02409375,"end":262.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.38659375000003,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.43721875,"end":262.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.55534375,"end":262.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.65659375,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.97721875,"end":264.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.66034375000004,"end":267.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.48721875,"end":274.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.50784375,"end":270.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.92471875,"end":277.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.64159375,"end":278.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.10971875,"end":279.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.14346875,"end":281.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.68721875,"end":282.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.70409375,"end":283.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.94846875,"end":286.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.86784375,"end":288.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.82096875,"end":293.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.55034375,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.53721875,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.32596875,"end":301.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.30034375,"end":302.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.82346875,"end":303.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.44346875,"end":303.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.46034375,"end":304.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.00034375,"end":304.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.08471875000004,"end":305.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.38409375000003,"end":308.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.08846875,"end":311.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.79221875,"end":313.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.46284375000005,"end":316.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.60596875000005,"end":318.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.85034375000004,"end":323.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.50346875,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.32159375000003,"end":328.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.88659375000003,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.81034375,"end":333.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.08846875,"end":335.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.18096875000003,"end":337.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.88534375,"end":339.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.96096875,"end":342.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.97721875,"end":349.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.78221875,"end":352.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.00534375,"end":353.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.41846875000005,"end":356.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.89471875000004,"end":360.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.51034375,"end":362.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.78846875000005,"end":364.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.67409375,"end":368.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.76221875000005,"end":379.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.54971875,"end":382.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.67159375,"end":384.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.29159375,"end":386.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.60346875000005,"end":389.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.25284375,"end":390.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.43846875,"end":391.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.93596875000003,"end":392.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.52221875000004,"end":396.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.61034375,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.65659375,"end":399.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.33971875000003,"end":402.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.69784375,"end":404.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.35159375,"end":406.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.38909375000003,"end":413.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.92409375000005,"end":415.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.47659375,"end":421.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.58096875,"end":424.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.67346875000004,"end":426.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.98534375,"end":428.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.49971875,"end":432.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.48659375000005,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.22909375,"end":433.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.90409375,"end":434.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.74346875000003,"end":436.36784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.04,"end":29.553,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩邀請副部長請徐副部長副部長你要按一下 要不然會被寫有有 幫我圍喔 可以了齁可以了可以了好 副部長齁 延續的我之前在最終的事情我的國防部去買那個抗彈纖維部要做抗彈背心 國軍弟兄的安全非常重要"},{"start":30.72,"end":54.036,"text":"所以我對於不肖的商人竟然用劣質的中國的布料來做什麼自國軍弟兄的安全與不顧謀取非法的暴力我非常的痛恨但讓我非常驚訝的事情是我的國防部在處理這個案子的時候"},{"start":56.65,"end":77.547,"text":"戴墮鬆懈到一個讓我沒有辦法理解的程度啊我為什麼說戴墮鬆懈到一個我沒有辦法理解的程度啊來看一下這個是延續著之前我質詢的主題我也給國防部的同仁回應的機會大同公司大眾電腦"},{"start":83.393,"end":104.124,"text":"得標了以後結果竟然用中國製的布料偽造MIT爽賺六千七百萬這是之前早就發生的弊案我那時候就問一件事為什麼這些不肖的廠商還沒有停權你們說有啦有停權大眾公司啊停權了"},{"start":112.659,"end":131.728,"text":"拿到0.7億元的大眾公司停權了拿到2.45億元的大同公司竟然沒有停權我在追這件事情的時候啊我就覺得很狐疑這個不肖的廠商為什麼沒有停權是因為他們跟民進黨關係比較好嗎所以不敢停權他嗎"},{"start":141.075,"end":170.294,"text":"是因為還有董事長去幫民進黨的立委助選所以不敢停權他嗎結果你們之前跟媒體說什麼2022年喔所依照工程會的調解所以沒有刊登政府公告我還特別跑去公共工程委員會問公共工程委員會的主委主委跟我說啊調解是私人關係啊跟停不停權的公共利益一點關係都沒有"},{"start":171.564,"end":180.951,"text":"第一個問題我上次問到現在你們國防部還沒有回我誰給這個媒體假訊息的查出來沒有報告委員這個是我請採購室的趙主任先跟您做個回報好嗎來誰給這個媒體假訊息的委員好這是當時我們國防部軍備局給的訊息但是先停一下軍備局的誰給媒體這個假訊息"},{"start":202.383,"end":224.505,"text":"可以這樣胡說八道報告委員 這個可能誤會他上面並沒有講說因為調解而不停權我來先看一下第三點本案依契約辦理交貨職研計法解約沒收履約違約金另依工程會調解未刊登政府採購公報這是不是你們提供的回應"},{"start":225.785,"end":238.765,"text":"如果媒體看假訊息啊要鄭重發聲明跟媒體抗議啊2022年發了這個聲明以後國防部一句否認都沒有到我今年開始問的時候說這個訊息不對啊"},{"start":242.349,"end":264.382,"text":"像委員報告其實剛剛委員所講的大眾公司已經停權了還有兩個案子我剛講過的廢話就不要再提了嘛我有質疑大眾的部分嗎但是他現在目前他當時申請調解那調解不成他現在申訴我就問嘛先停一下好不好你要在上面自說自話還是你要回答問題"},{"start":265.731,"end":270.475,"text":"國防部誰給這個媒體散播假訊息的?不用查嗎?可以這樣欺騙國人嗎?查出來沒有?國防部誰給這個媒體散播假訊息的?"},{"start":294.585,"end":305.569,"text":"查出來沒有副部長要不要查一個禮拜之內查出來明白回報給我誰放假訊息給媒體的為什麼我對這件事情這麼憤怒來副部長請你往下看我一直在想為什麼可以沒有停權結果搞了半天以後什麼搞了半天以後啊是你們要準備要處理停權的事情啊"},{"start":324.537,"end":353.455,"text":"停權的時效早過了停權的時效早過了我在質疑了所以你們在搞什麼東西啊該停權不停權做假動作放假訊息能拖就拖能混就混然後等到說啊我們好像應該要辦停權了發現超過時效了我上面所講的這個歷程副部長請您看一下我這看了"},{"start":355.401,"end":356.062,"text":"超過三年才開始搞這個是在放水嗎這是在放水嗎我是有這個問題這是不是在放水"},{"start":369.873,"end":398.489,"text":"委員有關委員所質疑的問題我剛也跟委員報告過了我會在一個禮拜之內把這個案子我們再查清楚再向委員再做一個詳細的一個回覆這是我第三次質詢這個案子相關的同仁該提供的背景的資訊該做的處理應該都很熟悉了我再給國防部一個禮拜當初到底誰在包屁誰在鬼混混到什麼前一任的部長說"},{"start":400.35,"end":402.392,"text":"說這種事情我們絕對無法容忍結果大家就混嘛混超過三年了然後假裝要辦庭權發現說啊超過三年的時間沒有辦法辦庭權太離譜了啦一個禮拜之內書面回覆兩個問題一個誰放假訊息給媒體要負什麼責任第二個為什麼超過三年的時間當初誰在拖延的"},{"start":429.674,"end":434.462,"text":"這件事情一定要給全體國人一個交代,可以嗎?沒有問題好,謝謝好,感謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":831,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩請副部長。"],["主席：請徐副部長。"],["徐副部長衍璞：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：副部長好，延續本席之前在追蹤的事情，國防部買抗彈纖維布做抗彈背心，因為國軍弟兄的安全非常重要，所以本席對於不肖商人竟然用劣質的中國布料製衣，置國軍弟兄的安全於不顧，牟取非法暴利，本席非常痛恨。但讓本席非常驚訝的是，國防部在處理這個案子的時候，怠惰、鬆懈到讓本席沒辦法理解的程度。為什麼本席會這麼說？請大家看一下，這是延續之前質詢的主題，本席也給國防部同仁回應的機會。","大同公司、大眾電腦得標以後，結果竟然用中國製的布料偽造MIT爽賺6,700萬元，這是之前早就發生的弊案。本席那時候就問一件事，為什麼這些不肖廠商還沒有停權？你們說有啦！有停權，拿到0.7億元的大眾公司停權了，拿到2.45億元的大同公司竟然沒有停權。本席在追這件事情的時候就覺得很狐疑，這個不肖廠商為什麼沒有停權？是因為他們和民進黨關係比較好，所以不敢停權嗎？還是因為他們的董事長去幫民進黨的立委助選，所以不敢停權？","結果你們之前向媒體說什麼？這是2022年的事情，你們說依照工程會的調解，所以沒有刊登政府公告。我還特別跑去公共工程委員會問主委，主委告訴我，調解是私人關係，和停不停權的公共利益一點關係都沒有。第一個問題，本席從上次問到現在，國防部還沒有回覆本席，誰給這個媒體假訊息？查出來沒有？"],["徐副部長衍璞：這個事情請採購室趙主任先向您回報，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：來，誰給這個媒體假訊息？"],["趙主任亞平：委員好。這是當時國防部軍備局給的訊息，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，軍備局的誰給媒體這個假訊息？可以這樣胡說八道喔？"],["趙主任亞平：這個可能是誤會，上面並沒有說因為調解而不停權，這個……"],["黃委員國昌：先看一下第三點，本案依契約辦理交貨遲延計罰及解約沒收履約違約金，另依工程會調解未刊登政府採購公報。這是不是你們提供的回應？如果媒體刊登假訊息，應該要鄭重發聲明向媒體抗議，2022年發了這個聲明以後，國防部一句否認的話都沒有，本席今年開始詢問，才說這個訊息不對。"],["趙主任亞平：其實剛才委員所說的，大眾公司已經停權了，他們有兩個案子……"],["黃委員國昌：本席剛說過了，這些廢話就不要再提了。本席有質疑大眾公司的部分嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：是。大同公司沒有辦停權，當時他們申請調解，但調解不成，現在在申訴，所以工程會現在……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，好不好？你要在上面自說自話，還是要回答問題？"],["趙主任亞平：我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：工程會的調解和停不停權有什麼關係？本席為了這件事情還跑去問工程會。"],["趙主任亞平：沒有關係。"],["黃委員國昌：既然沒有關係，你剛才在扯什麼？"],["趙主任亞平：調解確實和停權沒有關係。"],["黃委員國昌：所以本席就問嘛！當初國防部是誰給這個假訊息？不用查嗎？可以這樣欺騙國人嗎？查出來沒有？國防部是誰給這個媒體散播假訊息？查出來沒有？副部長，要不要查？"],["徐副部長衍璞：委員，我們回去以後就這個案子……"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內查出來，名單回報本席，誰放假訊息給媒體。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是，我們查完以後會在一個禮拜內向您回報。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼本席對這件事情這麼憤怒？副部長，請你往下看。本席一直在想，為什麼沒有停權？結果搞了半天，是你們準備要處理停權的事情時，時效早就過了。本席質疑的是你們在搞什麼？該停權不停權，只會做假動作、放假訊息，能拖就拖、能混就混，等到好像應該要辦停權了，結果卻發現超過時效。本席說的這個歷程，副部長，請您看一下。"],["徐副部長衍璞：我在看了。"],["黃委員國昌：超過3年才開始搞，這是在放水嗎？本席只有這個問題，是不是在放水？"],["徐副部長衍璞：有關委員質疑的問題，我剛剛也向委員報告過了，我會在一個禮拜之內把這個案子查清楚，再向委員做詳細回復。"],["黃委員國昌：這是本席第三次質詢這個案子，相關的同仁，該提供的背景資訊，該做的處理，你們應該都很熟悉了，本席再給國防部一個禮拜，當初到底是誰在包庇、誰在鬼混？混到什麼程度？前一任的部長說，這種事情我們絕對無法容忍，結果大家還是一樣混嘛！混超過3年了，然後假裝要辦停權，結果發現超過時間沒有辦法辦停權，太離譜了啦！請你們一個禮拜之內書面回復。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個問題，一個是誰放假訊息給媒體？要負什麼責任？第二個，為什麼超過3年的時間？當初誰在拖延？這件事情一定要給全體國人一個交代，可以嗎？"],["徐副部長衍璞：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["徐副部長衍璞：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員，副部長請回。接下來請羅智強委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},{"id":"156136","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156136","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b729f71d16c279b2e982770301154c67d5966be1ac5b6e0f98bbdb5b55d1651485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:08:21 - 12:13:27","影片長度":"00:05:06","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:08:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:13:27+08:00","duration":306,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.654093750000001,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.26534375,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.94784375,"end":20.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.74909375,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.96846875,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.28909375,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.91346875,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.180968750000005,"end":39.602843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.704093750000006,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.12409375,"end":82.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.33034375000001,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.62909375000001,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.56096875,"end":95.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.66159375000001,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.33221875000001,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.88721875,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.03909375,"end":152.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.41846875,"end":113.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.69909375,"end":126.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.71159375000002,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.74909375000001,"end":157.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.44096875,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.02596875,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.99159375000002,"end":171.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.64971875,"end":234.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.47534375,"end":244.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.07284375,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.23096875000005,"end":260.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.86784375,"end":274.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.52846875,"end":273.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.77284375,"end":285.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.16784375000003,"end":303.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.50284375,"end":302.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.47721875,"end":305.40096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":11.332,"text":"陳培宇委員。」好,謝謝主席。有請國發會主委還有勞動部。國發會,呃,劉主委,勞動部,來,處長。勞動部,來,副處長。好,陳委員好。"},{"start":22.964,"end":38.552,"text":"好,主委好。我要想快速看一下你們的報告裡面,其實你們提到關於AI產業化、產業AI化,其實各個部會該負責的業務我們在業務報告裡面有看見,但是我們覺得比較擔心的是看見勞動部的部分報告比較少,到底從勞工這一端"},{"start":40.073,"end":58.215,"text":"勞動部有沒有積極地開始跟很多勞工溝通相關團體溝通他們的工作或是他們目前產業狀態他們是必須要積極導入AI或者是勞工的工作可能被勞工取代於是需要政府部門在增能、執訓方面的協助我們看到相關業務的分工目前是這樣"},{"start":58.996,"end":87.241,"text":"那我猜想國防會跟勞動部應該已經有開始積極討論但是我時間有限可不可以快速請主委或者是勞動部這邊回應一下目前我們對於勞工這邊相關的協助或者是到底哪些產業需要導入AI而且是什麼樣程度的AI導入我們目前在相關業務報告裡面其實沒有看到太仔細的內容是謝謝委員的關心我想很簡要的說明基本上本部配合AI行動計畫2.0還有產業發展所需要的AI技能"},{"start":87.822,"end":103.58,"text":"事實上我們在1、1、2年已經投入大概3億3千多萬辦理了AI大數據的人才養成、深度學習等相關課程來到了380班訓練1萬1千多人、就業率也高達8成那在今年9月我們又持續投入了大概3億多"},{"start":104.059,"end":113.021,"text":"也開辦了380班訓練1萬多人那這個AI人才訓練的班別包括青年職業訓練、職業者﹗聽起來你們是有一些進度的人我打斷但是你們在開這些課程的同時是不是也有積極的收集相關勞工的訊息跟回饋他們有沒有有沒有真的在這些課程當中被增能或者是回到產業現場因為AI的變化真的太快了從之前跟主委請教"},{"start":128.385,"end":155.37,"text":"從AI到現在其實不過半年整個產業的進展非常的快那我這邊想要建議勞動部跟國發會這邊是不是應該更加積極以勞動部的角色增進相關勞工的知能也好或者是當這些AI的技術導入產業它對相關產業的衝擊我認為國發會應該更有角色去協助勞動部看見這個面向的困境還有做出相對的因應是這邊可不可以請主委回應一下"},{"start":157.523,"end":170.234,"text":"好的,這個部分我們會跟相關部會來討論一下,看怎麼樣讓勞工可以盡早地適應到未來的變化,也具備這樣的應用AI的技能。好,這邊我們希望兩個月內給我們辦公室相關報告可以嗎?"},{"start":171.27,"end":195.741,"text":"可以啊好謝謝主委那另外一個其實我之前已經來跟主委請教過就是關於地方創新的事情之前跟主委討論是相關的法規範其實對於很多新創的產業有非常大的困境喔最近這個黑白大廚很好我就不再多說可是這裡面導入了韓國在地的飲食精彩的飲食文化這件事情其實已經是全球的趨勢我要告訴主委其實我們台灣的料理或是台灣相關的創新能力絕對不輸這個"},{"start":197.102,"end":210.577,"text":"但是他們到底遇到什麼問題我之前跟您請教過在5月30我說他們被同業檢舉、被開法會相關的法規範其實都不適合讓他們回到地方有非常非常多的困境其實但是因為地方創生計畫是來自國發會所以國發會從我們5月30質詢到現在到底相關法規範在各個部會之間的討論平台目前的困境是什麼"},{"start":218.726,"end":244.028,"text":"例如說我們知道月桃在衛福部今年五月營用可是還是有些問題可是老葉呢到目前還不得使用我當然知道衛福部為了照顧國人的食安當然要嚴謹地把關可是例如說我要講艾草目前是應適量使用根莖尚不得使用芝子花這可以做出婚貴我不知道主委你知不知道芝子花是這樣來的還有呢相關之前因為這個蝸牛小米粽的問題可能也讓大家擔心但它可能不是因為食安的問題"},{"start":245.129,"end":257.744,"text":"我想要問的是臺灣的很多米其林餐廳甚至也有在用這些食材所以不管是地方創生也好或者是所謂高級的米其林餐飲其實他們都會遇到類似的問題但是國發會這邊的角色主委你要不要說一下我想"},{"start":260.953,"end":284.548,"text":"我們這邊針對上一次您的質詢的像月頭等等是有我們有做過的法規的調適但是您現在提的可能範圍更大就是我們應該是更全面的看這件事情那我想我會來自己來協調部會我們來看一下是不是可以全面性的來協助我們的地方青年在他的創新上面可以有比較大的空間"},{"start":285.208,"end":302.525,"text":"太好了我非常開心聽到主委您說您會主動召開相關的會議由您來主持我相信您的這個承諾一定會讓更多地方創生的夥伴知道自己可以回到自己的原始的家鄉或部落繼續做這樣的事情好那也謝謝主委我們辦公室會再積極跟國防會討論好的好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳培友言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時8分）好，謝謝主席，有請國發會主委，還有勞動部。"],["主席：國發會劉主委，還有勞動部副署長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委好。我快速看了一下你們的報告，你們提到AI產業化，產業AI化，其實各個部會該負責的業務，我們在業務報告裡有看見，但我們比較擔心的是，勞動部的部分報告比較少。到底從勞工這一端，勞動部有沒有積極地開始跟很多勞工相關團體溝通，他們的工作或是他們目前的產業狀態，是必須要積極導入AI，或是勞工的工作可能會被取代，需要政府部門在增能、職訓方面的協助？","我們看到相關業務的分工目前是這樣，我猜想國發會跟勞動部應該已經有開始積極討論，但是我時間有限，可不可以請主委或者勞動部這邊快速回應一下，目前我們對於勞工這邊相關的協助，或是到底哪些產業需要導入AI，而且是什麼樣程度的AI導入？目前在相關業務報告裡面，我們其實沒有看到太仔細的內容。"],["黃副署長齡玉：是，謝謝委員的關心，我很簡要地說明。基本上，本部配合AI行動計畫2.0，還有產業發展所需要的AI技能，事實上在112年已經投入大概三億三千多萬，辦理了AI大數據的人才養成、深度學習等相關課程，來到了380班，訓練一萬一千多人，就業率也高達八成。在今年9月我們又持續投入大概三億多，也開辦了380班，訓練一萬多人。這個AI人才訓練的班別包括青年職業訓練，失業者……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，聽起來你們是有一些進度的，容我打斷，但是你們在開這些課程的同時，是不是也有積極地蒐集相關勞工的訊息跟回饋？他們有沒有真的在這些課程當中被增能，或者是回到產業現場？因為AI的變化真的太快了，從之前跟主委請教AI到現在其實不過半年，整個產業進展非常的快。我想建議勞動部跟國發會，是不是應該更加積極，以勞動部的角色增進相關勞工的知能也好，或者是當這些AI的技術導入產業，對相關產業的衝擊，我認為國發會應該更有角色去協助勞動部看見這個面向的困境，還有做出相對的因應？"],["黃副署長齡玉：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：可不可以請主委回應一下？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，這個部分我們會跟相關部會討論一下，看怎麼樣讓勞工可以儘早地適應到未來的變化，也具備應用AI的技能。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這邊我們希望兩個月內給我們辦公室相關報告，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委。另外一個其實我之前已經跟主委請教過，就是關於地方創新的事情。之前跟主委討論的是相關的法規範，其實對於很多新創的產業，有非常大的困境。最近這個黑白大廚很紅，我就不再多說，可是這裡面導入了韓國在地的飲食，精彩的飲食文化，這其實已經是全球的趨勢。我要告訴主委，其實我們臺灣的料理，或是臺灣相關的創新能力，絕對不輸這個，但是他們到底遇到什麼問題？","我之前在5月30日跟您請教過，我說他們被同業檢舉、被開罰，或相關的法規範，其實都不適合，讓他們回到地方有非常多的困境，但因為地方創新計畫是來自國發會，所以國發會從我5月30日質詢到現在，到底相關法規範在各部會之間的討論平臺，目前的困境是什麼？例如我們知道月桃在今年5月衛福部允用，可是還是有些問題，像荖葉到目前還不得食用，我當然知道衛福部為了照顧國人的食安，當然要嚴謹的把關，可是我也要舉艾草為例，目前是應適量使用，根莖上不得使用；梔子花可以做出粉粿，我不知道主委知不知道梔子花是這樣來的，還有之前因為蝸牛、小米粽的問題，可能也讓大家擔心，但它可能不是因為食安的問題。","我想要問的是，臺灣的很多米其林餐廳，甚至也有在用這些食材，所以不管是地方創生也好，或是所謂高級的米其林餐飲，其實他們都會遇到類似的問題，但是國發會這邊的角色，主委要不要說一下？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：針對您上次質詢的月桃等等，我們是有做過法規的調適，但是您現在提的可能範圍更大，我們應該更全面的看這件事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我想我會自己來協調部會，看一下是不是可以全面性的來協助我們的地方青年，在創新上可以有比較大的空間。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了，我非常開心聽到主委說您會主動召開相關的會議，由您來主持，我相信您的這個承諾，一定會讓更多地方創生的夥伴知道自己可以回到自己原始的家鄉或部落，繼續做這樣的事情。謝謝主委，我們辦公室會再積極跟國發會討論。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳培瑜委員，謝謝，主委請回座。","下一位質詢請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156135","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156135","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bbb41bc9f445692a0e0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f96b39a8e8f8d8ca115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:02:25 - 12:10:32","影片長度":"00:08:07","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:02:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:10:32+08:00","duration":487,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.00971875,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.11909375,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.56846875,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.90596875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":19.082843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.63534375,"end":21.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.32659375,"end":27.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.094093750000003,"end":32.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.53221875,"end":43.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.82659375,"end":38.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.040968750000005,"end":49.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.149718750000005,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.85846875,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.96721875,"end":57.000968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.000968750000006,"end":57.017843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.017843750000004,"end":57.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.06846875,"end":57.220343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.220343750000005,"end":57.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.38909375,"end":57.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.49034375,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.50721875,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.62096875,"end":59.549093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.274718750000005,"end":62.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.70909375,"end":64.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.22346875000001,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.55221875000001,"end":66.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.56471875,"end":73.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.97721875,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.73346875,"end":99.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.04909375000001,"end":138.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.08096875,"end":148.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.88534375,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.51221875000002,"end":170.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.60346875000002,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.24721875,"end":198.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.51471875000001,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.23159375,"end":208.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.39909375000002,"end":210.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.01909375000002,"end":211.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.16659375,"end":214.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.54596875000001,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.68909375,"end":230.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.76284375,"end":253.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.97471875000002,"end":265.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.11596875000004,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.50784375,"end":271.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.34721875,"end":271.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.38096875,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.43159375,"end":289.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.02409375,"end":290.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.90534375000004,"end":291.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.79971875,"end":308.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.92784375,"end":319.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.69409375000004,"end":329.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.36034375,"end":322.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.33471875000004,"end":325.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.90346875,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.54846875000004,"end":334.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.52721875000003,"end":335.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.06284375,"end":336.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.98659375,"end":368.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.41221875,"end":369.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.26846875,"end":384.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.91596875000005,"end":416.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.79284375000003,"end":426.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.69409375000004,"end":429.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.12409375000004,"end":430.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.11971875,"end":453.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.68159375000005,"end":460.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.78596875000005,"end":471.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.80534375,"end":479.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.51721875000004,"end":483.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.19596875,"end":484.56284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.075,"end":2.401,"text":"好 主席有請部長好 陳部長"},{"start":16.638,"end":42.938,"text":"部長我想今天這個主題大家都是針對我們的駕駛缺工跟減班、砍線的問題來希望交通部推動相關政策可是不要忘記我覺得勞權跟安全的重要性那相信部長對於駕駛人力的持續銳減的問題應該有充分掌握了不過我想問部長是我們的路線班次跟運量都縮減"},{"start":44.139,"end":73.191,"text":"照理來講事故應該是不是理論上應該也會事實上是減少的對那大貨車的這個事故數據部長不知道有沒有掌握大貨車對大客貨車大貨車應該是真大客貨車的事故數據有沒有事故數據是在成長的好來我們就來看一下那個數據的確如部長剛剛提的就是說照理來講"},{"start":74.071,"end":88.541,"text":"我的觀念應該半次減少運量減少應該會減少怎麼反而數據事實上是好像顯示的不是這麼一回事像整體的大貨車裡面的數量創10年新高而且尤其是大貨車跟公車"},{"start":89.434,"end":110.73,"text":"造成的傷亡人數還逐步惡化112年還是創10年最高我自己本身一直在關心兒童安全那過去也對這邊比較多努力所以我對事故傷害防治跟安全議題相當重視那今年也發生了幾起事我們的大型車輛跟兒少的交通事故那大型車輛的管理問題已經成詬病的時候"},{"start":113.206,"end":129.07,"text":"在這邊我有幾個問題要提醒交通部首先來看一下我們的客運業勞動條件非常的差已經是眾人所知的常態每年勞動部都有勞檢以112年為例我們的處分率17.42%17.42%裡邊三層事實上是汽車客運業"},{"start":140.139,"end":161.919,"text":"1200場有209件那17.12可是三成都是客運業者那第一名是工作超時台灣一直在處理酒駕可是始終一直沒有處理疲勞駕駛可是除了工作超時以外那第三名事實上是休息時間不足那跟111年也都一樣就我們始終沒有去面對疲勞駕駛可是這個"},{"start":163.646,"end":178.131,"text":"我們的客運業者面對到的是這樣子的一個問題再來看第二個問題也就是我們的駕駛的薪資結構非常奇形我引用媒體從判決書上得到的資料會發現公車業者號稱8萬塊"},{"start":182.353,"end":211.102,"text":"就是說業者是可以可是三分之一事實上是加班費然後全部都是用獎金所以也意味著什麼意味著要我們的司機要搶班又搶客那就會開的速度上甚至客人在那裡站牌的時候我就要很快速的插過去然後才可以得到這些獎金因為載客量事實上是他的獎金來源那所以我不知道部長"},{"start":212.236,"end":228.716,"text":"你對於像這樣子的用獎金用加班費對駕駛跟業者來講這個事實上這些選項都沒有太大就好像不斷的鼓勵我們的司機要愛拚才會贏才能賺得更多不知道你對這個狀況有掌握嗎"},{"start":230.979,"end":259.075,"text":"有掌握那我也覺得說這個目前客運業在缺工的狀況底下勞動條件是一個很重要的一環那如果勞動條件可以提升我相信客運的這個人才會更留得住更能夠吸納所以我們一直在鼓勵說業者是不是在勞動條件的方面可以來做更好的加強那這個部分我以後也會再實施所以我覺得是不是可以要強勢一點否則的話我覺得找不到好的人人也不會進去那我也先想問部長"},{"start":260.256,"end":267.394,"text":"你是不是知道平建機制當中勞權的分數到底比重佔多少這個部分是不是可以"},{"start":271.818,"end":291.202,"text":"老全有放進來嗎因為我們其實是在基本的安全紀錄裡面他有提到就是說比如說自顧啦違規啦還有違反勞動條件所以就是說有一些部分如果說他違反一些勞動條件的話他就會變成說我來幫你回答就是先看到事實上"},{"start":291.963,"end":292.924,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":308.973,"end":328.943,"text":"公路總局你們到底自己跟部長觀念是不是不太一樣都覺得勞權很重要可是在評鑑分數上並沒有呈現因為只佔了5%評鑑應該是以安全為主以交通部的立場大概以安全為主因為勞權的部分當然我們很重視但是勞動部的部分也會來協助這個"},{"start":329.943,"end":356.01,"text":"所以部長也要知道我們要好的人才有辦法事實上安全否則的話沒有辦法來我們公路局年年都去考察了可是年年退步到底出去考察應該不是去玩吧你106年就開始去考察啦你也會去看東南亞地區瞭解整個客運營運的那個狀況管理怎麼去做可是看起來10年駕駛人創新低以外可是我們大客"},{"start":356.73,"end":384.399,"text":"大貨客運的這樣子造成傷亡近創10年新高那你考察用意這樣子有達到嗎似乎在浪費公帑下一頁所以另外運安會也在建議說你是不是應該建立安全管理機制不過更重要應該是輔導業者設置專責單位或人來修訂評鑑的執行要點來把安全管理納入"},{"start":385.034,"end":398.809,"text":"一個評選的考量再來看公視已經幫你們做完功課106年的時候公視就去採訪日本的巴士業者去針對一系列的報導甚至安全制度的改革行動包含我們的產業結構不要讓它銷價競爭"},{"start":402.152,"end":426.228,"text":"還有管理者的整個的駕駛的管理跟訓練要確保我們的駕駛有休息的時間甚至有沒有他的工時跟休息時間能不能有一些法則來確保我們駕駛者不會過度疲勞所以我們不希望說今天人家都幫你做完功課已經open book了你們還是無動於衷"},{"start":427.688,"end":427.748,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":448.292,"end":459.849,"text":"甲、高薪增拚命賺獎金的問題來吸引跟留用我們高品質人才第二個是強化駕駛的勞動條件希望能夠儘速修訂公車、汽車客運業營運與服務"},{"start":463.494,"end":484.45,"text":"執行要點來調整檢討評鑑項目第三個是應該落實我們考察跟研究報告的建議具體提出公車客運業者的管理制度跟改革短中長期計畫我不知道部長這邊可不可以在兩個禮拜內提出書面報告是 這個部分我們納入研議並且提出報告給委員好 謝謝部長 辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":594,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時2分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，陳部長。"],["林委員月琴：部長午安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：我想今天這個主題，大家都是針對我們的駕駛缺工、減班跟砍線的問題，希望交通部推動相關政策，可是不要忘記勞權跟安全的重要性。相信部長對於駕駛人力持續銳減的問題，應該有充分掌握了。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：不過我想問部長的是，我們的路線、班次跟運量都縮減，照理來講，事故是不是理論上應該也會減少？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員月琴：關於大貨車的事故數據，不知道部長有沒有掌握？"],["陳部長世凱：大貨車？"],["林委員月琴：對，大客貨車。"],["陳部長世凱：大貨車應該是……"],["林委員月琴：大客貨車的事故數據。"],["陳部長世凱：事故數據是在成長。"],["林委員月琴：好，我們就來看一下那個數據。的確如部長剛剛提的，照理來講，我的觀念是因為班次減少、運量減少，應該會減少，怎麼反而數據事實上好像顯示的不是這麼一回事，像整體的大貨客車事故數量創10年新高，尤其是大貨車跟公車，造成的傷亡人數還逐步惡化，112年還是創10年最高。","我自己本身一直在關心兒童安全，過去也對這邊比較多努力，所以我對於事故傷害防治跟安全議題相當重視。今年也發生了幾起大型車輛跟兒少的交通事故，大型車輛的管理問題已經成詬病的時候，在這邊我有幾個問題要提醒交通部。首先來看一下我們客運業的勞動條件非常差，已經是眾人所知的常態。每年勞動部都有勞檢，以112年為例，我們的處分率是17.42%，在17.42%裡面有三成是汽車客運業，1,200場勞檢裡面有209件違反，處分率17.42%，可是三成都是客運業者。第一名是工作超時，臺灣一直在處理酒駕，始終沒有處理疲勞駕駛，可是除了工作超時以外，第三名是休息時間不足，跟111年也都一樣。我們始終沒有去面對疲勞駕駛，可是我們的客運業者面對到的是這樣子的一個問題。","再來看第二個問題，我們的駕駛的薪資結構非常畸形，我引用媒體從判決書上得到的資料發現，公車業者號稱薪資8萬塊，可是事實上三分之一是加班費，然後全部都是用獎金，所以也意味著什麼？意味著我們的司機要搶班又搶客，那就會反映在開的速度上，甚至客人在站牌的時候，司機就要很快速的插過去，才可以得到這些獎金，因為載客量事實上是他的獎金來源。我不知道部長對於像這樣用獎金、用加班費，對駕駛跟業者來講，這些選項就好像不斷的鼓勵我們的司機要愛拚才會贏，才能賺得更多，不知道你對於這個狀況有掌握嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有掌握，我也覺得目前客運業在缺工的狀況底下，勞動條件是很重要的一環，如果勞動條件可以提升，我相信客運的人才會更留得住，更能夠吸納。所以我們也一直在鼓勵業者，是不是在勞動條件方面可以做更好的加強，這個部分我以後也會再持續來溝通跟要求。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得是不是可以強勢一點，否則的話我覺得找不到好的人，人也不會進去。我想問部長，你是不是知道評鑑機制當中，勞權的分數到底比重占多少？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為我們是在基本的安全紀錄裡面，有提到比如事故、違規，還有違反勞動條件，所以有一些部分，如果它違反一些勞動條件的話，它就會變成沒辦法符合基本安全……"],["林委員月琴：我來幫你回答，現在看到的是國道客運5.1%、一般公車客運5.4%，如果我們認為勞權非常重要的話，但在評鑑的比重上怎麼會針對業者有這樣的管控呢？這是沒有辦法的。顯然公路總局跟部長的觀念是不是不太一樣？你們都覺得勞權很重要，可是在評鑑分數上並沒有呈現，因為只占了5%。"],["陳部長世凱：評鑑應該是以安全為主，以交通部的立場應該以安全為主……"],["林委員月琴：是，這個我承認。"],["陳部長世凱：因為勞權的部分當然我們很重視，但是勞動部也會來協助這個部分。"],["林委員月琴：不過部長也要知道，我們要好的人才有辦法安全，否則的話沒有辦法。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，沒有錯。"],["林委員月琴：公路局年年都去考察，可是年年退步，出去考察應該不是去玩吧？你106年就開始去考察了，你也會去看東南亞地區，了解整個客運營運的狀況以及管理怎麼去做，可是看起來10年駕駛人創新低以外，我們大貨車客運造成的傷亡竟創10年新高，那你考察的用意有達到嗎？似乎在浪費公帑。","另外，運安會也建議你是不是應該建立安全管理機制，不過更重要應該是輔導業者設置專責單位或人，來修訂評鑑的執行要點，把安全管理納入評選的考量。再來看，公視已經幫你們做完功課，106年的時候公視就去採訪日本的巴士業者，針對一系列的報導，甚至安全制度的改革行動，包含我們的產業結構，不要讓它削價競爭。還有整個駕駛的管理跟訓練，要確保我們的駕駛有休息時間，甚至針對工時跟休息時間能不能有一些罰則來確保我們的駕駛者不會過度疲勞。所以我們不希望今天人家都幫你做完功課，已經open book了，你們還是無動於衷，考察作為應該不是只是玩樂，應該是把考察的東西拿回來之後，好好的來落實。","對於公車客運駕駛，我主張是不是政府可以用運價貼補，應以薪資結構正常化為條件，來改善假高薪，真拚命賺獎金的問題，吸引跟留用高品質的人才。第二個是強化駕駛的勞動條件，就是希望能夠儘速修訂公車汽車客運業營運與服務評鑑執行要點，來調整檢討評鑑項目。第三個是應該落實我們考察跟研究報告的建議，具體提出公車客運業者的管理制度，跟改革短、中、長期計畫。我不知道部長這邊可不可以在兩個禮拜內提出書面報告？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們會納入研議，並且提出報告給委員，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員，接下來有請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156134","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156134","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bf69d4d14ffd3e0f2e0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f90e4b2c360d55b1ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:44:58 - 12:01:34","影片長度":"00:16:36","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:44:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:01:34+08:00","duration":996,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":4.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":3.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.61659375,"end":5.9372187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8.434718750000002,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.880968750000001,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.11284375,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.088468750000004,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.15596875,"end":37.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.62846875,"end":37.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.15971875,"end":40.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.88034375,"end":45.947843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.947843750000004,"end":46.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.09971875,"end":54.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.40221875,"end":57.119093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.119093750000005,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.11284375000001,"end":70.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.27721875,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.40034375,"end":93.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.05846875,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.09596875000001,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.77096875000001,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.07471875,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.29409375,"end":98.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.42909375,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.61409375000001,"end":104.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.33534375,"end":104.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.62221875,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.90471875,"end":106.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.34346875,"end":111.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.52409375,"end":122.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.25284375000001,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.98221875,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.04971875000001,"end":126.57659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.57659375000001,"end":127.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.93096875,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.40346875,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.60596875,"end":136.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.14471875,"end":136.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.19534375,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.18659375000001,"end":140.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.80221875,"end":143.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.90721875,"end":146.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.16846875000002,"end":148.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.41721875000002,"end":150.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.93596875,"end":149.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.34909375,"end":153.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.74534375000002,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.09971875000002,"end":155.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.90534375000001,"end":161.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.96346875,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.03096875,"end":169.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.40534375000001,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.72596875000002,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.29534375,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.38346875000002,"end":175.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.77909375000002,"end":182.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.14159375,"end":189.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.82409375,"end":192.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.87846875000002,"end":197.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.56971875000002,"end":200.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.96159375000002,"end":205.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.53034375000001,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.57221875000002,"end":215.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.68159375000002,"end":210.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.96846875,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.38534375,"end":217.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.22471875000002,"end":220.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.12721875000003,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.92846875,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.94909375,"end":228.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.75471875000002,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.55159375000002,"end":236.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.20909375000002,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.19471875000002,"end":248.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.48159375,"end":250.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.77221875,"end":253.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.40471875000003,"end":258.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.02846875,"end":261.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.37409375000004,"end":266.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.65596875,"end":268.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.30971875,"end":270.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.65534375000004,"end":282.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.95284375,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.23471875,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.09096875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.14909375,"end":297.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.19971875000005,"end":297.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.48659375,"end":299.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.47784375000003,"end":299.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.74784375,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.21159375,"end":304.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.32096875,"end":307.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.92784375,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.57721875000004,"end":316.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.43721875,"end":322.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.93409375000005,"end":329.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.82346875,"end":357.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.65909375,"end":354.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.50284375,"end":356.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.52784375000005,"end":357.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.93284375,"end":372.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.96221875000003,"end":358.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.50534375,"end":367.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.22659375,"end":368.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.34471875,"end":368.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.39534375000005,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.96909375,"end":369.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.18846875,"end":369.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.23909375000005,"end":369.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.02346875,"end":372.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.25971875000005,"end":373.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.34409375,"end":372.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.89659375,"end":373.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.91346875000005,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.25096875,"end":375.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.26784375,"end":374.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.56721875000005,"end":376.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.97221875,"end":379.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.44846875,"end":382.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.90784375000004,"end":387.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.66659375,"end":390.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.09221875000003,"end":391.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.71659375,"end":398.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.15846875000005,"end":402.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.93409375000005,"end":404.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.14909375,"end":435.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.41659375,"end":421.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.20784375000005,"end":436.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.31721875000005,"end":447.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.62346875000003,"end":448.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.73721875,"end":451.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.82534375,"end":453.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.62659375000004,"end":458.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.16596875000005,"end":461.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.84909375,"end":463.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.17784375,"end":467.85659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.34596875000005,"end":469.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.74659375000005,"end":472.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.18471875000006,"end":476.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.42471875,"end":479.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.44971875000005,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.02346875,"end":480.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.32721875000004,"end":482.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.48721875,"end":484.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":484.14096875,"end":484.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.52909375,"end":484.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.62596875,"end":493.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.77659375,"end":494.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.05909375000005,"end":496.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.98284375000003,"end":498.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.33284375000005,"end":499.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.39596875,"end":505.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.38221875000005,"end":512.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.4740937500001,"end":514.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.71846875,"end":516.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.91221875,"end":524.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":524.80971875,"end":525.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.1259687500001,"end":529.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.29409375,"end":533.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.8715937500001,"end":534.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.10346875,"end":536.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.92596875,"end":538.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.6428437500001,"end":545.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.8359687500001,"end":548.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.2240937500001,"end":547.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.2109687500001,"end":551.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.36659375,"end":552.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.7165937500001,"end":558.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.7790937500001,"end":560.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.3103437500001,"end":565.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.03971875,"end":567.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.70596875,"end":569.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.8997187500001,"end":572.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.44784375,"end":576.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.4640937500001,"end":579.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.09221875,"end":582.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.1297187499999,"end":589.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.04846875,"end":590.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.21284375,"end":593.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.30096875,"end":596.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.22909375,"end":596.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.52846875,"end":600.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.45596875,"end":604.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":603.2278437500001,"end":603.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.9153437500001,"end":606.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.53534375,"end":607.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.90221875,"end":608.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.08784375,"end":614.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.3484687499999,"end":615.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.7490937499999,"end":619.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.32221875,"end":620.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.1828437500001,"end":623.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.22471875,"end":625.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.9753437500001,"end":626.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.5490937500001,"end":626.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.4097187500001,"end":629.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.43471875,"end":632.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":632.77596875,"end":633.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.40034375,"end":635.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.3915937500001,"end":641.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.8715937500001,"end":643.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.0147187499999,"end":648.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.71846875,"end":651.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.2878437500001,"end":651.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.23284375,"end":654.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.07221875,"end":654.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.9328437500001,"end":660.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.06284375,"end":660.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.7378437500001,"end":660.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.9740937500001,"end":661.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.09221875,"end":661.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.46346875,"end":663.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.9609687500001,"end":664.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.32784375,"end":666.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.98159375,"end":668.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":671.58846875,"end":676.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":676.4484687500001,"end":678.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.7522187500001,"end":680.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":680.3972187500001,"end":685.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.73471875,"end":681.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.27846875,"end":686.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":687.1303437500001,"end":692.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.3997187500001,"end":693.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.7578437500001,"end":698.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.02284375,"end":702.6553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.3134687500001,"end":706.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.2959687500002,"end":708.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.6628437500001,"end":713.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.53534375,"end":715.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.53096875,"end":717.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.18034375,"end":720.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.57659375,"end":722.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.78721875,"end":726.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":726.9890937499999,"end":727.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":727.9340937500001,"end":739.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":727.9509687500001,"end":728.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.0715937500001,"end":740.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.7590937500001,"end":741.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":742.1428437500001,"end":744.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":744.87659375,"end":746.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.57221875,"end":750.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.66471875,"end":754.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":754.6303437500001,"end":757.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.54534375,"end":761.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.47721875,"end":764.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":765.2278437500001,"end":769.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.9697187500001,"end":771.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.5390937500001,"end":774.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.7790937500001,"end":775.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.12909375,"end":777.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":778.23846875,"end":779.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.79096875,"end":782.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.5034687500001,"end":785.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":786.37221875,"end":787.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.4353437500001,"end":797.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":797.2397187500001,"end":798.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.0790937500001,"end":803.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":805.2722187500001,"end":807.2803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":807.46596875,"end":808.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":809.01846875,"end":813.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":814.50284375,"end":815.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":816.30846875,"end":820.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":821.50596875,"end":822.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":823.22721875,"end":824.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.1215937500001,"end":824.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.76284375,"end":826.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":827.04096875,"end":833.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":834.58409375,"end":837.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":838.6340937500001,"end":839.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":840.23721875,"end":840.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":841.5703437500001,"end":845.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.60346875,"end":846.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":846.4640937500001,"end":848.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.7590937500001,"end":856.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":857.3315937500001,"end":858.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":859.62659375,"end":860.3015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":860.77409375,"end":863.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":864.0478437500001,"end":872.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":872.6203437500001,"end":874.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":874.4597187500001,"end":877.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":877.91909375,"end":889.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":889.6640937500001,"end":894.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.81096875,"end":897.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":898.16909375,"end":900.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.66221875,"end":904.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":905.5434687500001,"end":907.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":907.99034375,"end":908.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":909.3403437500001,"end":913.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":913.33971875,"end":915.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":916.15784375,"end":919.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":920.14034375,"end":925.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":926.3672187500001,"end":929.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":930.7547187500002,"end":933.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":933.62346875,"end":937.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":937.97721875,"end":941.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":941.7065937500001,"end":943.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":943.8328437500002,"end":946.3640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":946.56659375,"end":948.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":949.21596875,"end":950.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":951.3759687500001,"end":952.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":952.89471875,"end":957.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":958.9697187500001,"end":963.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":963.81284375,"end":964.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":964.6397187500002,"end":966.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":967.0359687500002,"end":970.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":970.98471875,"end":973.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":974.08971875,"end":977.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":977.5828437500002,"end":978.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":978.78096875,"end":979.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":980.5359687500002,"end":986.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":987.47159375,"end":994.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":993.96846875,"end":994.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":995.3015937500002,"end":995.8415937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.31,"end":3.858,"text":"主席請陳部長然後林司長跟陳局長林司長還有陳局長謝謝"},{"start":15.126,"end":42.117,"text":"三位早時間有限今天有幾個問題就叫第一個台藝縣大甲溪橋的改建工程大安溪橋的改建工程本席一直以來非常關心這些年來我們也不斷地會勘也開過多次的協調會議基本上交通部的態度是全力支持無論是從過去幾任的部長都是支持我想陳部長應該也是支持當然"},{"start":42.777,"end":70.602,"text":"那重點來了就是說那個預算經費龐大那部裡面公路局曾經跟本席報告過這個要特別的這個請行政院特別來支持那我想請那個局長大概現在目前的狀況預算的狀況是如何是跟委員報告因為省改計畫就是說我們西一期的計畫有提報到行政院那整體的匡列的經費因為確實就是說省道上面有很多的一些道路跟橋樑要做對要做"},{"start":72.202,"end":93.167,"text":"所以大概就是說我們自己是評估就是說已經匡列的經費對於就是說有一些新增的因為這個是算是說新增的改建的工程可能會經費上面比較不足所以我們大概也會再爭取一種就是說大概匡列的經費未來可以再增加或是修正另外一種就是說比如說提專案的計畫去跟行政院爭取"},{"start":93.407,"end":112.837,"text":"OK 這個部長 這個應該你要積極一下啦 因為這以前喔 很簡單 以前不是很簡單的 以前要努力譬如說只要部長同意 送到行政院對於新興的這個計畫是民眾需要的 因為大甲溪、大安溪是台一線當中 中部非常重要的兩個橋樑"},{"start":113.877,"end":136.859,"text":"那年代已經很久遠啦我們經不起這個橋樑有任何的散失這個是影響生命財產非常巨大的事情但以前只要部長同意院長同意就解決了對不對那這一關其實就已經要花一點力氣了啦因為就如同局長所講的全台灣那個省道要修的道路橋樑這麼多嘛但現在更複雜了"},{"start":138.24,"end":155.11,"text":"因為現在啊如果在野黨不審預算啊我們的新興計畫是民眾嗷嗷逮捕這些新興計畫是沒有一項動得了嘛預算沒過新興計畫是沒有錯這個我很了解我在立法院那麼久了我很了解所以又比以前更困難了但是不管多困難啊"},{"start":156.15,"end":179.33,"text":"我想民眾對於這些他們期待趕快政府期待政府要做的事情那第一關要先部裡面跟行政院要同意吧所以部長你要記得這件事情因為前任前面兩個部長都答應本席一定會跟行政院記者我也會跟行政院長來做一個報告來爭取好不好那之後我們再來看看立法院對這個預算的審查要怎麼來處理第二個問題這個"},{"start":183.206,"end":205.776,"text":"民眾其實不斷的反映臺中的市民也是這個樣子就是這個今天大家在討論這個運輸特別像公車人力不足的問題那這個人力不足就導致這個托班嚴重你看這個隨便這個新聞報導臺北市托班嚴重對不對臺中市這個公車駕駛荒深夜末班車下午4點就開走"},{"start":206.596,"end":225.676,"text":"長輩等沒車啦其實不只長輩等沒有車啦我想過去這一年來很多的上班族上學的同學啊這個因為拖班導致比如說很多學生他就遲到了嘛他應該預估15分鐘要來一班的他都算好了結果那一班沒來"},{"start":226.991,"end":252.421,"text":"他去學校就遲到了然後有一些上班的也因為沒來他也上班也遲到了所以這影響民眾的生活很巨大剛剛討論過的我就不再重複了部裡面跟勞動部怎麼去想辦法讓這個問題可以解決這是一回事但短期我希望交通部能做一件事情你要督促各地方政府就是據時已報"},{"start":254.468,"end":282.51,"text":"你讓你公車明明15分鐘你就沒有辦法來一班嘛因為你的司機明顯就不足了嘛但是你讓消費者讓市民的期待是15分鐘一定有一班結果你就給我拖班所以他本來可以自己你告訴他因為我沒有辦法請到我這個市長無能我市長沒有辦法處理到這個事情所以我15分鐘一班的公車我現在告訴你30分鐘一班"},{"start":284.005,"end":307.357,"text":"那上班上學的同學們跟這些上班族、市民朋友們他就知道說現在30分鐘一班那我該自己不行的我就要想辦法搭UBER或者搭計程車或者自己開車或者什麼這個才讓人家有預期嘛不然你看光這一年來跟本席服務處投訴幾號公車又拖班、幾號公車又拖班害他遲到"},{"start":308.973,"end":325.911,"text":"喔 這個真的是不勝美舉啊那為什麼地方政府你不好好地把你就你就有困難你就請不上你市長就要出來解決嘛你要告訴大家實話啊你不可以每次都一直拖班啊所以部長這個可不可以請我們的監理單位這個上級"},{"start":326.651,"end":354.36,"text":"監理這個這個去好好的處理一下這個問題我們有請公路總局針對這個市區公車的部分合理性的班表再做檢討我們會要求地方政府要再針對這個部分做檢討合理性的班表是為什麼一方面是要讓民眾知道我什麼時候有車什麼時候沒車這個要務實要講實話那第二就是說時間也不要拉得太緊因為有時候公車的駕駛他為了趕時間你用那種不合理的班表他就要趕時間就要開很快沒錯"},{"start":355.06,"end":378.619,"text":"所以也危險所以合理性的頒表我們會再努力沒錯這個一定要努力啦就是說我其實大家不是趕你那個車子而是因為你讓我預期你告訴我你上面告訴我這個幾分鐘15分鐘一班車或者20分鐘一班車但是不是這樣子嘛那個都是參考用的那這個就很嚴重了這個就跟過去我們昨天在罵台鐵是一樣的問題嘛"},{"start":380.02,"end":402.388,"text":"所以這個一定要加強監督啦好不好這個要當成跟地方政府這個監督的重點再來另外這個遊覽車的評鑑我看了一下好像這個112年度又比110年度這個甲等跟乙等好像甲等就越來越少乙等越來越多啦這個我想請教一下我們如果得到優等有什麼獎勵局長是不是"},{"start":405.502,"end":424.415,"text":"我們大概就是說對於就是說業者的一些管理他的強度優等就會變得比較低比如說他到公司的一些查核的這個頻率就會比較少那對於就像比如說不列等我們就每個月都去一等的話比如一劑那第二個跟各位報告就是優等的我們都公告"},{"start":425.075,"end":453.422,"text":"有等假等公告公告以後其實我們也就是說宣導這個旅行社還有學校他們就是要去看租車的時候你公告就在我們交通部的網站我們網站還有就是說像車子我們也宣導車子旁邊車門有QR code其實他一般的民眾掃一下就知道說這個業者大概是平等是怎麼樣這個喔局長這個分消極面跟積極面消極面我們當然就是要防範"},{"start":454.893,"end":478.774,"text":"業者都大家亂來嘛所以你要有一套評鑑來督促要求他們但是我覺得這個積極面不夠啦就你要讓大家努力去做一個好人優秀的人做一個讓大家肯定的人那你就要有一些獎勵嘛我們孩子功課好頒獎功課進步我們也頒獎"},{"start":481.045,"end":505.528,"text":"他就是公開啊直接就是公開這樣做嘛那你要讓大家努力往上爬是因為直接講這是商業行為讓他有誘因嘛這是誘因設計的問題嘛如果我因為這樣譬如說我拿特優的假設啦政府都優先政府要聘遊覽車我都直接從特優開始特優沒有我才找甲等"},{"start":506.428,"end":524.416,"text":"那我的獎勵我讓所有使用遊覽車大量的跟政府相關的業者相關的機關我都發函告訴他甚至我的甲等的遊覽車上面都有頒布像米其林這樣子這台車米其林三星的"},{"start":526.172,"end":544.774,"text":"你現在去餐廳走路看到那個米其林你就會覺得說這間應該不會踩雷啦所以一樣的道理嘛我們要做評鑑你就要真的把它落實啦消極面我們不能只處理消極面好像只是抓害蟲我們要鼓勵才對"},{"start":545.885,"end":560.367,"text":"另外業者也會有一些抱怨就是我們幾乎都是這個叫我們就招標嘛專家學者啦或者什麼單位來招標標評鑑遊覽車啦我不反對因為總是要有人去評鑑嘛"},{"start":561.388,"end":589.079,"text":"但是我的意思是說這個評鑑當然項目我看過具體清楚但是是不是憑藉這些項目就是優等、甲等、乙等、丙等是不是我認為這個應該跟業者多多溝通因為業者的抱怨意思就是說學者都活在外太空的世界裡面實務面裡面這些評鑑的項目不一定符合所謂優、甲、乙的"},{"start":590.497,"end":618.972,"text":"這個內容所以這個我是建議多溝通啦因為說實在話你怎麼定都有人你怎麼定都有人有意見但是你要讓多數的業者覺得參加這一個評鑑他是覺得有意義的好不好這個我們再加強一下那最後一個大家今天討論這個外送平台其實怎麼定本席沒有意見但是怎麼定交通部這個困難或者政府的困難在於怎麼定都要適應"},{"start":620.353,"end":647.467,"text":"當然要店家贏、消費者贏、我們的外送員贏、平台業者也要贏啦對那透明是第一步啦是就是因為你不透明大家相互猜忌嘛對外送員一定覺得說我收到錢你都留大部分的利潤留在平台我外送員只領一點點但是如果你實際當然我不瞭解啦但是如果我實際從報章雜誌去看到的"},{"start":649.775,"end":667.826,"text":"平台幾乎都虧錢嘛我不知道台灣的平台是不是賺錢平台在台灣應該是賺錢不然他那個併購我聽說他併購的價值要花308億那個主委那個我們那個公平會李主委來麻煩一下平台業者在台灣賺錢還是虧錢"},{"start":671.896,"end":698.799,"text":"這個每個兩個平台業者的營運狀況不同是不是賺錢可能要他們不是申請要申請要併購嗎資料送來沒有申請有一些文件已經到有一些文件那你看了文件他們是賺錢還是虧錢這個從文件上很難就是說賺不賺錢要從很多面向沒關係沒關係就是他們基本有財報嘛是主委如果你覺得這個是不可以公佈的你也可以告訴本席"},{"start":700.083,"end":725.131,"text":"所以如果你覺得說這個是可以公佈的因為我看報章雜誌他們的獲利模式是先壟斷再獲利嘛所以全球的這個平台業者都在哭說他們已經幾十年成立十年來聊話者已經都在講這個嘛所以看起來讓消費者覺得他都在虧錢嘛我做一個閱聽者我也覺得他虧錢的但聽部長講起來好像不一定或許國家有差別所以我問你台灣到底虧錢還是不虧錢"},{"start":727.979,"end":746.865,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個兩家營業額營業額大概就是去年是600億跟500億台幣對那福平台我們知道他今年有轉就是有轉正了是有賺錢賺錢了啦好那這個齁要做到透明如果連這個都不能公佈剛剛陳部長講的透明就不可能了"},{"start":748.72,"end":774.056,"text":"因為你沒有公開的財報你如何未來我們政府當政府要去介入現在看起來是沒有人沒有人要當爐主這到底要誰來管沒有人要當這個法如果要定專法要定沒有爐主但不管怎麼樣爐主是誰以後我們在這個要討論但重點在於公開透明的第一步就像上市公司一樣他的財報讓大家很清楚"},{"start":774.827,"end":803.884,"text":"他每一單他的毛利多少、利率多少要清楚我們才可以大家才可以要談判的過程裡面才有一個準則嘛我不知道這個是不是應該要可不可以公平會你們當你們看到要併購的時候這個東西是不是可以公佈啦我不知道齁我剛剛問你所以你可以公佈你就告訴本席你不可以公佈你就隱晦其講但是你試想如果這個是不可以公佈的那政府要如何去介入讓他公開透明"},{"start":805.539,"end":825.139,"text":"這個本身我們就矛盾了啦這個本身就矛盾了所以你只有把利潤很清楚的透過他的財報攤在陽光下你要說服這個這個我們的辛苦的外送員才可以知道告訴你說這是什麼你分這個錢合不合理嘛因為我們的貨運"},{"start":827.877,"end":848.36,"text":"運輸貨運管理業我們有這些同業的大家可以來看他的這個標準是什麼這個才可以有做到這個嘛然後我也覺得很奇怪交通部要來管這個齁那個郵差有沒有專法那個我從小我們就看他騎摩托車啊他也在送東西耶他是依照什麼法來管理是依照這個郵政法"},{"start":848.94,"end":860.142,"text":"還有這種依照郵政法來管理嘛那未來郵政法跟你你送信的叫做郵政法那送食物的那是什麼法"},{"start":860.814,"end":889.296,"text":"跟委員報告一下現在就是說送郵物的部分跟一般貨物的部分包括這一個外送的部分原則上在法規上是有一條線對那一條線的界線是什麼那條線的部分因為它那個就是說這一個郵件的部分的話就是偏向這個就是書面這些相關的東西那像這一個郵局它如果說遞送包裹那也是算是送貨了"},{"start":890.237,"end":915.078,"text":"所以你看喔 我不問這個問題喔 大家又不是傻傻啦阿你剛剛解釋我聽起來還是不是傻傻啦阿所以誰要來主管這個事情我就會立刻想到你交通部你也有郵差阿阿郵差也是騎著摩托車在送阿阿他的 我貼了郵票讓他送到 我付了錢讓他去送那他到底郵差抽多少"},{"start":916.627,"end":929.525,"text":"這個都是問題啦我沒有答案我只是點出來說到底誰要來管這個因為他的商業模式很簡單嘛他一樣有送貨的部分但是他的接單卻是數位的平台"},{"start":930.816,"end":955.962,"text":"然後呢它是跟店家又要連結然後消費者又要付費嘛對不對所以它看起來這個環節裡面很複雜嘛所以不要掛一漏萬啦不要說到時候齁換郵差來說欸啊我送這個我領這個薪水因為我好像送的單比我的同事多捏我的件數啊我送票齁我都一天我都送100斤他送50斤他才會到我那樣"},{"start":959.005,"end":986.932,"text":"我們郵差沒有這個我們才是進去哪一個幾等就領多少薪水嘛 對不對對所以這個都要整體考量啦本席覺得要適應啦要大家都贏這個管理政府的介入才有意義啦不然或者你這個就是裡外不是人啦這個你怎麼做都會有問題嘛就像要公開透明我剛剛問李主委他看起來這個要回答得很保守嘛 對不對這怎麼公開透明呢"},{"start":987.984,"end":994.175,"text":"時間的關係啦市長有空再到我辦公室來跟我講一下郵差的事情好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時44分）謝謝主席，請陳部長、林司長跟陳局長。"],["主席：陳部長、林司長還有陳局長，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：三位早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間有限，今天有幾個問題就教，第一個關於台1線大甲溪橋的改建工程、大安溪橋的改建工程，本席一直以來非常關心，這些年來我們不斷的會勘，也開過多次的協調會議。基本上交通部的態度是全力支持，無論是過去幾任的部長都是支持，我想陳部長應該也是支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：重點來了，就是預算經費龐大，部裡面公路局曾經跟本席報告過，這個要特別請行政院支持，我想請問局長，目前的狀況、預算的狀況大概是如何？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，我們新一期的省改計畫有提報到行政院，整體的匡列經費，因為省道上面確實有很多的道路跟橋梁要做。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，要做。"],["陳局長文瑞：我們自己評估已經匡列的經費，對於一些新增的，因為這個是算新增的改建工程，可能在經費上面比較不足，所以我們大概也會再爭取。一種就是匡列的經費未來可以再增加或是修正，另外一種就是，譬如說提專案的計畫去跟行政院爭取。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，部長，這個部分你應該要積極一下。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為以前要努力，譬如說只要部長同意，送到行政院，對於新興的這個計畫是民眾需要的，因為大甲溪、大安溪是台1線當中，中部非常重要的兩個橋梁，年代已經很久遠了，我們經不起這個橋梁有任何的閃失，這個是影響生命財產非常巨大的事情。以前只要部長同意、院長同意，就解決了，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：這一關其實就已經要花一點力氣了，因為如同局長所講的，全臺灣省道要修的道路、橋梁這麼多。那現在更複雜了，因為現在如果在野黨不審預算，我們的新興計畫是民眾嗷嗷待哺，這些新興計畫是沒有一項動得了嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：預算沒過，新興計畫是完全不能動。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，這個我很了解，我在立法院那麼久了，我很了解，所以又比以前更困難了，但是不管多困難，我想民眾對於這些他們期待政府要趕快做的事情，第一關部裡面跟行政院要同意。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以部長要記得這件事情。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為前面兩個部長都答應本席，一定會跟行政院積極爭取。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：我也會跟行政院長做一個報告來爭取，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：之後我們再來看看立法院對於這個預算的審查，要怎麼來處理。第二個問題，民眾其實不斷的反映，臺中的市民也是這個樣子，就是今天大家在討論運輸，特別像公車人力不足的問題。人力不足就導致脫班嚴重，你看這個隨便的新聞報導，臺北市脫班嚴重，對不對？臺中市公車駕駛荒！深夜末班車下午4點就開走，長輩等嘸車，其實不只長輩等沒有車啦！"],["陳部長世凱：所有人都等不到車。"],["蔡委員其昌：我想過去這一年來，很多的上班族、上學的同學，因為脫班導致，譬如說很多學生就遲到了，他應該預估15分鐘要來一班的，他都算好了，結果那一班車沒來，他去學校就遲到了。然後有一些上班的也因為車沒來，他上班也遲到了，所以這影響民眾的生活很巨大。","剛剛討論過的我就不再重複，部裡面跟勞動部怎麼去想辦法，讓這個問題可以解決，這是一回事，但短期我希望交通部能做一件事情，你要督促各地方政府據實以報。明明公車沒辦法15分鐘來一班，因為你的司機明顯不足，但是你讓消費者、讓市民的期待是15分鐘一定有一班車，結果你就給我脫班。你告訴他，因為我沒有辦法請到司機，我這個市長無能，沒有辦法處理好這件事情，所以15分鐘一班的公車，我現在告訴你30分鐘一班，這些上班、上學的同學們、上班族跟市民朋友們，他們就知道現在是30分鐘一班，不行的就要想辦法搭Uber、搭計程車或者自己開車等等，這個才讓人家有預期嘛！不然你看光這一年來跟本席服務處投訴，幾號公車又脫班、幾號公車又脫班害他遲到，這個真的是不勝枚舉。為什麼地方政府你有困難，請不到工，市長就要出來解決嘛！你要告訴大家實話，你不可以每次都一直脫班啊！部長，可不可以請我們的上級好好的處理一下這個問題？"],["陳部長世凱：我們有請公路總局針對市區公車的部分，合理性的班表再做檢討，我會要求地方政府要再針對這個部分做檢討，合理性的班表是為什麼？一方面是要讓民眾知道什麼時候有車，什麼時候沒車，這個要務實，要講實話。第二就是時間也不要拉得太緊，因為有時候公車的駕駛為了趕時間，你用那種不合理的班表，他就要趕時間，就要開很快。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：這樣相對也危險。"],["蔡委員其昌：是。"],["陳部長世凱：所以合理性的班表我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，這個一定要努力。其實大家不是趕你那個車子，而是因為你讓我預期，你告訴我15分鐘一班車，或者20分鐘一班車，但是不是這樣子，那個都是參考用的，這個就很嚴重了。這個就跟我們昨天在罵臺鐵是一樣的問題，所以這個一定要加強監督好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個要當成跟地方政府監督的重點。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外關於遊覽車的評鑑，我看了一下112年度比110年度的甲等跟乙等，好像甲等越來越少，乙等越來越多。我想請教一下，我們如果得到優等，有什麼獎勵？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們對於業者的管理強度，優等就會變得比較低，比如說到公司的查核頻率就會比較少，對於不列等的我們就每個月都去，乙等的話比如說一季。第二個跟各位報告，就是優等的我們都會公告，優等、甲等都會公告，公告以後其實我們也就是宣導旅行社，還有學校，他們就是要去看，租車的時候就會特別……"],["蔡委員其昌：公告就在我們交通部的網站嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們的網站，還有就是車子，我們也宣導車子旁邊、車門有QR Code，其實一般的民眾掃一下就知道這個業者的評等大概是怎麼樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，局長，這個分消極面跟積極面，消極面我們當然就是要防範業者大家亂來，所以你要有一套評鑑來督促、要求他們。但是我覺得積極面不夠，就是你要讓大家努力去做一個好人，優秀的人，做一個讓大家肯定的人，你就要有一些獎勵。我們的孩子功課好就頒獎，功課進步我們也頒獎。他就是公開，直接就是公開這樣做，你要讓大家努力往上爬，是因為直接講這是商業行為，要讓他有誘因，這是誘因設計的問題嘛！如果我因為這樣，譬如我拿特優的，假設啦！政府都優先，政府要聘遊覽車都直接從特優開始，特優沒有才找甲等。我的獎勵，我讓所有使用遊覽車，大量的跟政府相關的業者、相關的機關，我都發函告訴他。甚至甲等的遊覽車上面都有頒布像米其林這樣子，這台車米其林三星，你現在去餐廳，走路看到那個米其林，哇！這是米其林的餐廳，你就會覺得這間應該不會踩雷。一樣的道理，我們要做評鑑，你就要真的把它落實。我們不能只處理消極面，好像只是抓害蟲，我們要鼓勵才對。","另外，業者也會有一些抱怨，就是我們幾乎都是招標，專家學者或者什麼單位來標評鑑遊覽車。我不反對，因為總是要有人去評鑑，但是我的意思是這個評鑑，當然項目我看過，具體清楚，但是不是評鑑這些項目就是優等、甲等、乙等、丙等，是不是？我認為這個應該跟業者多多溝通，因為業者抱怨的意思就是，那些學者都活在外太空的世界裡面，實務面裡面這些評鑑的項目，不一定符合所謂優、甲、乙的這個內容，所以我是建議多溝通啦！因為說實在話，你怎麼定都有人……"],["陳部長世凱：這個內容要讓業者清楚啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你怎麼定都有人有意見，但是你要讓多數的業者覺得，參加這個評鑑是有意義的，好不好？這個我們再加強一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：最後一個，大家今天討論外送平臺，其實怎麼定本席沒有意見，但是交通部的困難或者政府的困難在於怎麼定都要四贏，要店家贏、消費者贏、我們的外送員贏、平臺業者也要贏。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：透明是第一步，就是因為你不透明，大家相互猜忌。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：外送員一定覺得你收一筆錢進來，大部分的利潤留在平臺，我外送員只領一點點。當然，我不了解，但是如果我實際從報章雜誌上看到的，平臺幾乎都虧錢。我不知道臺灣的平臺是不是賺錢？"],["陳部長世凱：平臺在臺灣應該是賺錢，不然他那個併購，我聽說他併購的價值要花308億。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我們的公平會李主委，麻煩來一下。平臺業者在臺灣賺錢還是虧錢？"],["李主任委員鎂：兩個平臺業者的營運狀況不同，是不是賺錢可能要……"],["蔡委員其昌：他們不是申請要併購嗎？資料送來了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：有一些文件已經到了，有一些文件還沒有到。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，那你看了文件，他們是賺錢還是虧錢？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個從文件上很難……就是賺不賺錢要從很多面向來看。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，就是他們基本有財報，主委，如果你覺得這個是不可以公布的，你也可以告訴本席，如果你覺得這個是可以公布的，因為我看報章雜誌，他們的獲利模式是先壟斷再獲利，所以全球的這個平臺業者都在哭說，他們成立10年來虧了多少錢，都在講這個。所以看起來讓消費者覺得他都在虧錢，我做一個閱聽者，我也覺得他虧錢，但聽部長講起來好像不一定，或許國家有差別，所以我問你臺灣到底虧錢還是不虧錢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我請處長說明一下。"],["林處長慶堂：跟委員報告，那兩家營業額，去年是600億跟500億臺幣，我們知道foodpanda今年有轉正了，是有賺錢。"],["蔡委員其昌：賺錢了，好。這個要做到透明，如果連這個都不能公布，剛剛陳部長講的透明就不可能，因為你沒有公開的財報，未來我們政府要如何去介入？現在看起來是沒有人要當爐主，這到底要誰來管？沒有人要當，這個專法如果要訂定，沒有爐主啦！但不管怎麼樣，爐主是誰以後我們再討論，但重點在於公開透明的第一步，就像上市公司一樣，它的財報要讓大家很清楚，它每一單的毛利多少，利率多少要清楚，我們在談判的過程裡面才有一個準則。我不知道這個是不是可以公布，公平會當你們看到要併購的時候，這個東西是不是可以公布，我不知道。我剛剛問你，所以你可以公布你就告訴本席，不可以公布你就隱晦的講。但是你試想，如果這個是不可以公布的，那政府要如何去介入，讓它公開透明？這個本身就矛盾了，所以你只有把利潤很清楚的透過它的財報攤在陽光下，你要說服我們辛苦的外送員，才可以告訴你說這是什麼，你分這個錢合不合理，因為我們的貨運運輸、貨運管理業，我們有這些同業的，大家可以來看它的這個標準是什麼，這才可以做到。","然後我也覺得很奇怪，交通部要來管這個，那郵差有沒有專法？我從小就看他騎摩托車，他也在送東西，他是依照什麼法來管理？"],["林司長福山：他是依照郵政法。"],["蔡委員其昌：他依照郵政法來管理，送信的叫郵政法，那送食物的是什麼法？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，現在就是送郵物的部分，跟一般貨物的部分，包括外食的部分，原則上在法規上是有一條線的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，那一條線的界線是什麼？"],["林司長福山：那條線的部分，因為郵件的部分就是偏向書面這些相關的東西，像郵局遞送包裹也是算送貨了。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你看，我不問這個問題，大家還「霧嗄嗄」。你剛剛的解釋我聽起來還是「霧嗄嗄」，所以誰要來主管這個事情？我就會立刻想到交通部也有郵差啊！郵差也是騎著摩托車在送，我貼了郵票讓他送到，我付了錢讓他去送，那到底郵差抽多少？這個都是問題，我沒有答案，我只是點出來到底誰要來管這個，因為他的商業模式很簡單，他一樣有送貨的部分，但是他的接單卻是數位的平臺，他跟店家又要連結，然後消費者又要付費，對不對？所以看起來這個環節裡面很複雜，所以不要掛一漏萬，不要到時候換郵差來說：我送這個，我領這個薪水，我好像送的單比我的同事多，我的件數、我送信一天送100件，他送50件，他怎麼跟我領一樣？我們的郵差沒有這個，我們是進去是哪一個級等就領多少薪水，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以這個都要整體考量，本席覺得要四贏，要大家都贏，這個管理、政府的介入才有意義，否則你都是裡外不是人，這個你怎麼做都會有問題。就像要公開透明，我剛剛問李主委，他看起來要回答得很保守，對不對？這怎麼公開透明？因為時間的關係，司長有空再到我辦公室，來跟我講一下郵差的事情。好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡委員。","現在時間是12點，請教一下今天列席的機關各單位，有沒有沒吃早餐的？可能要自己先去補一下，我們中午要不要休息？各機關有沒有什麼建議？都還好，如果要上廁所的請自行前往。第二個，因為今天登記的委員特別多，還有二十幾位，待會各位委員請把握時間，謝謝大家。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156133","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156133","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b99282b08f43e8269e0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f9a554a5522fe1698e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:35:09 - 11:44:44","影片長度":"00:09:35","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:35:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:44:44+08:00","duration":575,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.56221875,"end":3.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.78846875,"end":23.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.12909375,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.91346875,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.36909375,"end":31.941593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.317218750000002,"end":121.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.85159375,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.111593750000004,"end":51.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.14159375,"end":75.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.90471875,"end":79.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.77784375,"end":81.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.12159375,"end":153.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.31471875,"end":128.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.34846875,"end":128.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.61846875,"end":128.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.44159375,"end":164.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.23721875,"end":185.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.30409375000002,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.21721875,"end":185.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.67284375,"end":225.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.13659375,"end":215.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.47409375,"end":215.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.70034375,"end":234.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.73346875000001,"end":229.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.08784375000002,"end":230.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.11659375000002,"end":241.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.41096875000002,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.74409375000002,"end":248.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.95846875,"end":248.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.61659375000002,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.98784375000002,"end":251.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.43471875000003,"end":258.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.63596875,"end":290.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.73721875,"end":260.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.33596875,"end":262.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.51221875000005,"end":268.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.87909375000004,"end":270.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.69159375000004,"end":282.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.15846875,"end":303.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.71846875,"end":299.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.32534375,"end":305.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.36721875,"end":307.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.12659375000004,"end":309.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.83909375,"end":326.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.54346875000005,"end":312.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.36409375,"end":331.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.73096875000005,"end":326.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.26659375,"end":328.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.82721875000004,"end":370.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.87784375,"end":332.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.42096875000004,"end":339.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.69096875,"end":339.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.36909375000005,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.36971875,"end":390.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.95721875000004,"end":394.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.41659375,"end":397.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.02409375,"end":395.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.60596875000005,"end":398.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.65659375,"end":397.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.04471875,"end":402.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.80346875000004,"end":402.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.97221875,"end":436.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.02971875000003,"end":413.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.78971875,"end":436.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.97534375000004,"end":437.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.00909375000003,"end":441.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.07659375000003,"end":437.09346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.80159375000005,"end":473.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.25659375000004,"end":446.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.15909375,"end":449.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.96534375000005,"end":496.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.86471875,"end":499.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.56034375,"end":504.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.50909375000003,"end":511.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.3390937500001,"end":516.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.8615937500001,"end":525.8897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.4597187500001,"end":528.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.8428437499999,"end":535.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.2309687500001,"end":529.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.2509687500001,"end":553.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.46596875,"end":537.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.30534375,"end":539.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.03409375,"end":547.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.15221875,"end":547.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.81846875,"end":550.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.48034375,"end":554.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.66596875,"end":555.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.02846875,"end":571.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.65659375,"end":560.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.9678437499999,"end":566.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.68034375,"end":570.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.5578437500001,"end":570.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.77284375,"end":572.90346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.591,"end":3.279,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":12.95,"end":30.405,"text":"部長早我們看到交通部在9號有預告就是這個外送平台機車運送運價就是這個外送費的修正法規草案那是不是請部長先簡單說明一下就是說要修訂這樣子一個草案的緣由是基於什麼樣的"},{"start":32.306,"end":51.972,"text":"因為這個產業是新興的產業那在台灣我相信每一個人大部分的生活都會受到他的影響或者受到他的幫助那這個產業到了現在當然有各個方面一方面是消費者一方面是外送員那還有店家那當然也還有企業就是產業面的部分那其實關係到的範圍蠻大的"},{"start":54.733,"end":81.763,"text":"那有很多的聲音跟包括立法院相當多的委員希望說這個部分是不是政府可以多一些的管理對於消費者的權益也可以保障那對於勞工的權益也可以保障那不過這個部分大家討論完之後認為說有一個很重要的必須由交通部來推行的就是運價透明化這個部分因為畢竟我們這個行業它主要是在送貨那個貨是食物啦送食物送貨"},{"start":82.583,"end":109.734,"text":"那有很多的單位都希望說交通部是不是可以把這個運駕透明化的這個制定方向先把它拿出來先把它拿出來那這個部分交通部這陣子就在研擬這件事情我們希望透明化那希望有一個公式那這個公式由各方一起來達成協議就是我剛剛講的產業就是公司Uber平台平台業者那一方面是外送的工會外送員的工會那一方面是消費者"},{"start":110.154,"end":120.01,"text":"所以我們也特別拜訪了消費者基金會那之後的會議也會邀請他們來參加那地方政府以及公路局未來也會一起來制定整個運費的公式"},{"start":122.276,"end":145.07,"text":"是好那就是剛剛部長有講到一個重點就是這個運費的透明化所以應該就是一個很重要的問題應該就是這個運費的一個透明化的問題那我們也看到就是這個全國外送產業工會的理事長他在日前受訪的時候他也有很明確的講出來就是說這個外送平台在2021年前就是運價都有詳細的計算公式"},{"start":148.832,"end":176.273,"text":"那在2021年4月之後那這個計費的公式就不公開所以讓外送員的收入減少5到7成不等那就是約略估算就是之前他們可能一個單收入可以60元可是在4月之後他們可能就只就是減到剩40元甚至剩24元那這樣子真的是好像變相的砍心所以當然就是說我們也要保重這個外送員的他的一個權益"},{"start":178.254,"end":194.19,"text":"所以對於這樣子的一個就是修正草案那也引起了很多的一個討論那我們看到就是說在我們9號公告之後那網路的媒體Yahoo就是也做了一個就是民意調查"},{"start":195.391,"end":214.983,"text":"就是在10月11跟10月15他有做了一個投票那他也有去做這樣子的一個訪問那對於這是說外送運費的一個修法準則支持度還算蠻高的就是也都應該都是有支持這樣子的一個修法的一個方向"},{"start":216.143,"end":242.159,"text":"第二個問題那就是說如果說未來運價準則就是它的費用可能會調漲的話那是不是還會點外送可是就有高達55的這個比例不會再點那先請教部長你認為這樣子的一個民調可信度如何我覺得他的題目第一題或許比較正常但第二題我認為這個有引導性就是有陷阱"},{"start":242.919,"end":254.463,"text":"對他就說如果外送將那個運費將調漲60到85元等等對那這個部分其實是有些引導對那就是事實上是會調漲60到85還是說會調漲到60至85那是不是就差很多"},{"start":259.725,"end":286.676,"text":"是 而且報告委員其實我們現在整個修法的方向主要是針對透明化的機制的部分我們在做討論但是運價不一定會上漲喔運價不一定會上漲因為未來各方所討論出來制定的那個運價制定出來之後我們只有制定上限沒有制定下限當我們上限訂出來代表什麼代表它的運價不可以超過我們規定的上限但"},{"start":287.096,"end":298.98,"text":"要往下例如說現在很多人我時常在用Uber Eats我是用免運費的那個方案未來廠商可不可以繼續用免運費當然可以他可以繼續用免運費這個沒有問題所以沒有那種調漲60到85元這個議題並不存在"},{"start":303.903,"end":313.794,"text":"所以這是假議題我認為是假議題所以我覺得很重要我覺得這樣子的話可能就是會讓很多人誤解那因為我也看到一份報導這是一個媒體的一個關鍵一個評論的媒體他也說就是這樣子的一個訊息出來之後"},{"start":320.982,"end":338.707,"text":"消基會也表示反對那我不曉得說這方面您找到的...報告委員這個部分應該是有一些誤解消基會所聽到的消息是調漲但我剛剛也跟委員報告過我們這次沒有要做任何調漲的討論我們只有針對機制的透明化做討論"},{"start":340.747,"end":370.027,"text":"討論出來的那個機制他不一定是調漲有可能大家因為到時候消基會也會是討論的一方他們也會加入討論的一方所以消費者的權益一定會得到保障他不一定就是一定調漲那消基會得到的訊息可能是片面的事後我們有跟消基會做溝通那局長也特別去拜訪過消基會的董事長他們聽完之後他們也認為說透明化對於消費者的權益保障應該是有幫助的所以他們也支持透明化這個方案"},{"start":370.447,"end":373.008,"text":"是 可是就是說當然這是剛剛部長回答的啦可是如果說看我們針對這個目前公告的這個修法的一個方向啊內容就是有提到說在幾種情況下可以加收等待費、樓層費、夜間加成費、春節運費等等"},{"start":390.174,"end":403.893,"text":"加收這樣子的話就是等於就是真的會漲啊報告委員這個裡面是得啦你可以把這個當作計價方案但也可以不把它當作計價方案可以討論這是可以討論的所以我說過"},{"start":406.657,"end":432.313,"text":"這一次我們的討論重點是放在透明化的機制透明化的機制運價透明化的機制那至於運價透明化裡面該包含哪些內容目前還在討論階段我們下禮拜三會有一個座談會邀集了消機會邀集了這個平台業者邀集了外送員工會大家一起來討論未來可能的計價機制那現在的狀況是這樣現在是沒有把這些放進去但"},{"start":432.853,"end":462.177,"text":"到底消費者所承受的運價是多少目前是沒人知道的送的那個人不知道付錢的那個人也不知道這是目前大家遇到的問題是 所以本席在這邊也希望就是說我們在修正這樣子一個法案可能會影響的也就是聯動的就是三方嘛平台、消費者還有店家所以這個也是非常的重要所以我們是不是也有可能去做一個民調就是針對外送員的族群去做一個"},{"start":463.318,"end":476.254,"text":"民意調查消費者也做民意調查還有店家也做民意調查對他們所擔心的疑慮因為我們看到媒體的報導包括店家他們也擔心就是說這個外送平台這樣一個新興的產業這樣子的一個供應鏈"},{"start":479.318,"end":491.47,"text":"也讓他們的訂單有增加三成左右可是他也擔心說這個新制通過之後多出來的成本會轉嫁到平台或者消費者或者是店家的身上那他怕說這樣子的情況下因為下單的人意願低了"},{"start":495.114,"end":515.953,"text":"外送員可能就接不到單那店家也會賺不到錢那最後就是就是會影響到這個外送產業的一個就是會打擊到或者是沒落那這個都是一個連動的一個影響那是不是我們應該要去針對這三個族群去做一個很確切的一個民意調查"},{"start":516.974,"end":535.433,"text":"掌握真實的民意因為畢竟我覺得這個法令實施之後你要再來修改也是會需要很長時間我們的討論的過程一定會把各方的意見都納入這個委員您放心我們在討論的過程各方的意見都會納入但我看這兩篇報導都是把成本增加"},{"start":536.354,"end":555.112,"text":"作為前提但成本不一定是增加成本不一定是增加我們只是針對透明化就是你該怎麼計價透明化這個跟成本的增加或減少是沒有關係的所以我覺得有一些訊息是錯誤的刻意給店家這樣的訊息如果成本增加如果到你身上怎麼辦用這個前提這是不對的設定"},{"start":556.118,"end":571.829,"text":"是是好那在這邊最後還是就是要建議我們交通部這邊就是真的一個法令的一個修正要實施我們不要說實施的引起民怨我們才再來要再修改我覺得這樣子都會造成傷害了當然好謝謝謝謝召委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":494,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時35分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["陳委員素月：部長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：我們看到交通部在9日預告外送平台機車運送運價，也就是外送費的修正法規草案，是不是請部長先簡單說明一下要修訂這個草案的緣由、是基於什麼樣的原因？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為這個產業是新興產業，在臺灣，我相信每一個人的大部分生活都會受到它的影響或受到它的幫助。而這個產業到了現在當然有各個方面的反映，一方面是消費者、一方面是外送員，還有店家，當然還有企業，也就是產業面，其實關係到的範圍滿大的。有很多聲音、包括立法院相當多委員都希望政府在這部分可以多一些管理，對於消費者權益可以保障，對於勞工的權益也可以保障。不過大家討論完之後認為有一點很重要、必須由交通部推行，就是運價透明化這個部分，畢竟這個行業主要是貨運、送的是貨，只是那個貨是食物啦！因為是送食物、送貨，有很多單位都希望交通部把運價透明化的制定方向先拿出來，所以交通部這一陣子就在研擬這件事情。我們希望透明化、希望有一個公式，而這個公式由各方一起達成協議，就是我剛剛講的產業、公司如Uber等平臺業者，一方面是外送員工會，一方面是消費者。所以我們特別拜訪了消費者基金會，之後的會議也會邀請他們來參加，地方政府和公路局未來也會一起制定整個運費公式。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛部長講到一個重點，就是運費的透明化，應該代表很重要的就是運費透明化問題。我們也看到全國外送產業工會理事長日前受訪的時候也很明確地講出來，就是外送平臺運價在2021年以前都有詳細的計算公式，但2021年4月之後這個計費公式就不公開，所以讓外送員的收入減少五到七成不等。約略估算，之前他們一張單可以收入60元，可是在2021年4月之後可能就減到剩40元、甚至剩24元，這樣真的好像是變相砍薪啦！我們當然也要保障外送員的權益嘛！所以這樣的修正草案也引起很多討論。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員素月：我們也看到在9日公告之後，網路媒體Yahoo做了民意調查，在10月11日跟10月15日辦了投票，也做了訪問，結果對於外送運費修法準則，支持度還算滿高的啦！應該都支持這樣的修法方向。第二個問題是如果未來因應運價準則費用可能調漲的話，是不是還會點外送？就有高達55%的比例不會再點。先請教部長，你認為這樣的民調可信度如何？"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得題目中的第一題或許比較正常，但第二題我認為有引導性。"],["陳委員素月：就是有陷阱？"],["陳部長世凱：對，因為它提及如果外送運費將調漲60元到85元等等，這部分其實有些引導意味。"],["陳委員素月：事實上是調漲60元到85元，還是會調漲到60元至85元，這裡是不是就差很多？我是說問法。"],["陳部長世凱：是。而且報告委員，其實現在整個修法方向主要是針對透明化機制這部分討論，運價不一定會上漲喔！運價不一定會上漲！因為未來各方討論出來、運價公式制定出來之後只制定上限，沒有制定下限。把上限訂出來代表什麼？代表運價不可以超過我們所規定的上限，但如果要往下，例如現在很多人時常用Uber Eats，使用的又是免運費方案，那麼未來廠商可不可以繼續用免運費方案？當然可以，它可以繼續免運費，這個沒有問題，所以沒有那種調漲60元到85元的前提，這個議題並不存在。"],["陳委員素月：所以這是假議題？"],["陳部長世凱：我認為是假議題，至少我目前看……"],["陳委員素月：這點很重要啊！因為這樣可能會讓很多人誤解。","我也看到一份報導，來自一家評論媒體，它說這樣的訊息出來之後，消基會也表示反對。不曉得對這方面您掌握得……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分應該是有一些誤解，消基會所聽到的消息是調漲，但我剛剛也跟委員報告過，我們這次沒有要作任何調漲的討論，只針對機制的透明化作討論。討論出來那個機制不一定是調漲，也有可能在大家討論後……因為到時候消基會也會是討論的一方、他們也會加入討論的一方，所以消費者的權益一定會得到保障，不是一定會調漲，消基會得到的訊息可能是片面的。我們事後有跟消基會溝通，局長也特別去拜訪過消基會的董事長，他們聽完之後也認為透明化對於消費者的權益保障應該是有幫助的，所以他們也支持透明化這個方案。"],["陳委員素月：當然剛剛部長回答的是這樣，可是我看了目前公告的修法方向、內容，提到在幾種情況下可以加收等待費、樓層費、夜間加成費、春節運費等等。如果是「加收」，這樣的話就等於真的會漲啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這裡面用的是「得」啦！代表可以把這個當作計價方案，但也可以不把它當作計價方案，可以討論！這是可以討論的。所以我說過，我們這次的討論重點放在透明化的機制，運價透明化的機制，至於運價透明化裡面該包含哪些內容，目前還在討論階段，我們下禮拜三會有一個座談會，邀集了消基會、平臺業者與外送員工會，大家一起來討論未來可能的計價機制。目前的狀況是這樣，現在是沒有把這些放進去，但到底消費者所承受的運價是多少，目前是沒人知道的，送的那個人不知道，付錢的那個人也不知道，這是目前大家遇到的問題。"],["陳委員素月：所以本席在這邊也希望，我們在修正這樣的一個法案，可能會影響的都是連動的，就是三方，包括平臺、消費者，還有店家。這個也是非常重要，所以我們是不是也有可能去做一個民調，就是針對外送員的族群去做一個民意調查，然後消費者也做一個民意調查，還有店家也做一個民意調查。對於他們所擔心的疑慮，因為我們看到媒體的報導，包括店家他們也擔心，外送平臺這樣一個新興的產業、供應鏈，讓他們的訂單增加三成左右，可是他們也擔心這個新制通過之後，多出來的成本會轉嫁到平臺，或者消費者，或者是店家的身上。他們怕在這樣子的情況下，因為下單的人意願低了，外送員可能就接不到單，店家也會賺不到錢，最後會影響到外送產業，就是會受到打擊到或者是沒落。這個都是一個連動的影響，我們是不是應該要針對這三個族群，去做一個很確切的民意調查，掌握真實的民意，畢竟這個法令實施之後，你要再來修改也是需要很長的時間。"],["陳部長世凱：所以報告委員，我們的討論過程一定會把各方的意見都納入，這個委員您放心，我們在討論的過程，各方的意見都會納入，但我看這兩篇報導都是把成本增加作為前提。但成本不一定是增加的，我們只是針對透明化，就是你該怎麼計價透明化，這個跟成本的增加或減少是沒有關係的。我覺得有一些訊息是錯誤的，刻意給店家這樣的訊息，如果成本增加，如果到你身上怎麼辦？用這個為前提，這是不對的設定。"],["陳委員素月：最後還是要建議交通部，就是一個法令要修正、實施，我們不要實施了引起民怨，才再來要再修改，我覺得這樣子都會造成傷害，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月召委，接下來有請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156132","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156132","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b8c853df77311676fe0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f9a443fcc4334c3ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:21:40 - 11:34:54","影片長度":"00:13:14","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:21:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:34:54+08:00","duration":794,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":4.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.840343750000001,"end":7.3209687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.20159375,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.83784375,"end":29.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.01784375,"end":33.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.64596875,"end":40.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.19346875,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.65284375,"end":43.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.25596875,"end":46.774718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.61409375,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.242218750000006,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.05971875,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.07596875,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.47221875000001,"end":67.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.17221875,"end":69.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.33221875000001,"end":70.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.29409375,"end":72.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.33596875,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.87971875000001,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.99784375,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.05659375,"end":85.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.12721875000001,"end":93.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.22721875,"end":95.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.84721875000001,"end":98.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.34034375,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":106.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.87909375000001,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.00471875000001,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.35909375000001,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.67096875000001,"end":119.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.82221875,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.65284375,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.77846875,"end":132.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.02284375000002,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.50284375,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.62909375,"end":142.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.79721875,"end":147.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.31159375000001,"end":162.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.32284375,"end":157.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.63409375,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.75596875000002,"end":168.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.89471875,"end":173.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.89409375000002,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.24409375000002,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.09596875,"end":179.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.66534375,"end":183.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.22159375,"end":186.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.63034375,"end":189.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.34721875000002,"end":191.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.91659375,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.37159375000002,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.14346875,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.64471875,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.05784375000002,"end":206.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.28971875000002,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.96846875,"end":212.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.88784375,"end":216.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.49909375000001,"end":223.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.08034375000003,"end":226.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.99096875,"end":230.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.49284375000002,"end":233.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.74971875000003,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.31034375000002,"end":239.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.73596875,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.89971875,"end":248.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.07221875000002,"end":251.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.14346875,"end":256.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.27346875,"end":259.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.13784375,"end":265.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.94721875,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.01346875,"end":277.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.74284375,"end":280.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.96596875,"end":284.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.62346875000003,"end":287.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.93534375,"end":291.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.54659375,"end":292.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.98096875000005,"end":295.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.64721875000004,"end":296.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.79471875,"end":300.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.60409375,"end":306.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.34159375,"end":308.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.55659375000005,"end":311.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.88096875,"end":313.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.95659375,"end":316.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.02784375000005,"end":318.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.15409375,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.43659375000004,"end":320.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.36471875,"end":321.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.42784375,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.40221875000003,"end":326.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.40596875,"end":328.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.85721875,"end":330.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.22409375,"end":332.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.75534375,"end":333.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.30784375,"end":337.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.12159375000005,"end":340.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.36159375,"end":343.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.70284375,"end":348.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.22534375000004,"end":351.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.36409375,"end":353.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.50721875000005,"end":362.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.87284375,"end":364.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.50971875000005,"end":372.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.33971875000003,"end":375.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.36034375,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.38471875000005,"end":383.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.20284375,"end":385.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.86096875000004,"end":386.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.90721875,"end":387.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.97034375000004,"end":387.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.67909375000005,"end":389.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.79284375000003,"end":393.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.57284375,"end":397.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.12909375000004,"end":401.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.95971875000004,"end":404.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.89596875,"end":406.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.14034375,"end":409.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.02596875,"end":411.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.16909375,"end":414.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.83534375000005,"end":417.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.49721875,"end":420.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.89346875,"end":421.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.49659375000005,"end":425.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.00659375000004,"end":426.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.17096875000004,"end":431.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.89596875,"end":438.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.96659375,"end":441.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.97034375000004,"end":445.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.13846875,"end":447.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.01159375000003,"end":449.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.85096875000005,"end":452.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.93909375000004,"end":455.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.99346875000003,"end":458.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.57534375,"end":460.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.81971875000005,"end":463.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.80659375000005,"end":464.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.97096875000005,"end":469.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.42596875000004,"end":474.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.61909375000005,"end":478.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.46659375,"end":482.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.82471875000005,"end":484.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.20409375,"end":487.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.78596875000005,"end":488.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.49471875,"end":489.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.18221875,"end":492.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.05096875000004,"end":494.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.53596875000005,"end":496.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.98284375000003,"end":500.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.93159375000005,"end":501.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.19721875000005,"end":505.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.38659375000003,"end":505.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.06159375000004,"end":527.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.6459687500001,"end":520.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.5053437500001,"end":529.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.19721875,"end":530.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.2140937500001,"end":529.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.12534375,"end":530.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.3784687500001,"end":531.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.43721875,"end":532.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.63534375,"end":544.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.3215937500001,"end":550.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.10096875,"end":553.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.6828437500001,"end":556.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.29409375,"end":558.7959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.25159375,"end":559.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.28534375,"end":562.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.63909375,"end":567.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.67221875,"end":569.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.96721875,"end":570.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.51971875,"end":575.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.8059687500001,"end":576.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.29096875,"end":577.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.8984687500001,"end":578.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.53534375,"end":583.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.04096875,"end":585.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.0490937500001,"end":588.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.0022187500001,"end":589.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.0190937500001,"end":589.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.32284375,"end":591.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.48284375,"end":595.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.83659375,"end":599.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.76846875,"end":600.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.07221875,"end":605.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.64096875,"end":612.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.52596875,"end":614.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.4115937500001,"end":617.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.16221875,"end":619.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.55846875,"end":622.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.81971875,"end":623.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.08971875,"end":626.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.5659687500001,"end":627.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.13534375,"end":628.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.15221875,"end":628.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.6753437500001,"end":630.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.9365937499999,"end":633.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.51846875,"end":635.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.93159375,"end":638.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.9522187499999,"end":644.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.3272187499999,"end":644.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.65596875,"end":644.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.89221875,"end":645.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.02284375,"end":655.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.49409375,"end":668.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.38784375,"end":661.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.12909375,"end":673.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.61346875,"end":675.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.67221875,"end":675.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.70159375,"end":680.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.9878437500001,"end":682.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.72596875,"end":683.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.3797187499999,"end":686.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.3372187500001,"end":689.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.2353437500001,"end":694.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.82534375,"end":694.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.96034375,"end":695.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.0278437500001,"end":695.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.09096875,"end":696.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.81659375,"end":697.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.74471875,"end":698.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.00596875,"end":704.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.49471875,"end":706.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.2240937500001,"end":709.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.7934687500001,"end":713.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.90659375,"end":715.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.78409375,"end":717.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.04534375,"end":719.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.44159375,"end":722.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.37784375,"end":729.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.5034687500001,"end":741.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.90659375,"end":749.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.18471875,"end":744.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.27284375,"end":747.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.55096875,"end":753.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.2297187500001,"end":753.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.58409375,"end":757.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.7353437500001,"end":760.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.63784375,"end":763.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.57409375,"end":766.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.54409375,"end":768.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.48471875,"end":780.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.49721875,"end":769.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.9722187500001,"end":783.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.84096875,"end":788.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.65034375,"end":793.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.14784375,"end":791.60346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.198,"end":25.279,"text":"好,謝謝昭偉是不是請交通部陳部長還有公路總局陳部長陳國內局長部長早委員早謝謝您昨天果斷而且英明的決定請我們何局長很努力的去處理這個事情是是,他們會努力來處理航班的問題"},{"start":26.184,"end":50.977,"text":"部長我今天跟你談馬祖大橋因為你上任以來我還沒跟你詳細的談賴總統在行政院長任內核定了馬祖大橋可行性的評估而且也進入了綜合計畫那麼他也曾經前往縣子去會刊"},{"start":52.304,"end":68.979,"text":"曾經全網限職會刊是他要先講,他只要可行的話錢不是問題那麼叫前幾任的行政院長對馬祖大俠的作為可以說相對的務實前幾天我也碰到周院長,我說馬祖大俠什麼時候決定?"},{"start":70.353,"end":79.996,"text":"他說你總預算不要卡關,你協助我們,我們就讓你過關總預算要過才有辦法建設的地方是事實我也很樂意去協助,希望總預算趕快去來審查賴總統在113年雙十國慶以團結台灣、共研夢想為題發表演說,強調"},{"start":96.463,"end":119.205,"text":"更要加強離島地區的基礎建設提升生活品質和觀光的量能由此可見賴總統對離島的務實了解就我們離島馬祖而言40餘年以來大概只有槍炮聲只有槍炮聲沒有基礎建設的機械聲可以顯示出我們建設的一個落後"},{"start":121.228,"end":144.011,"text":"山上原來種了一些高粱、地瓜現在也沒有了出海現在以前有很多的黃魚曾經是黃魚的故鄉現在魚也找不到了那島地交通趁風破浪而且夜間不相往來到晚上沒辦法開船空中交通的效率其差無比那麼來去"},{"start":145.894,"end":170.908,"text":"身不由己需要碰運氣來不易回更難且常被關倒像昨天側風很大飛機無法降落還有會主委到那邊去還跑到北竿去坐飛機回來所以馬祖有他說真的需要大家的幫忙我們馬祖大概是有36個島嶼組成的而且"},{"start":175.322,"end":194.441,"text":"我們島與島之間秀麗的景色美不勝收但美中不足的就是沒有橋樑的連接致使人民的生活品質大受影響現在金門有金門大橋澎湖有澎湖大橋我聽楊揚委員講還要再做一座大橋"},{"start":198.408,"end":227.277,"text":"馬祖根據舉世無雙的馬祖肉身的靈血擁有獨特的聖地光光亮能但是因為缺乏南北竿島際交通的一個基礎建設縱然南北竿有兩座不合格的一個小機場死債客量有限也沒有辦法發揮光光的一個亮能我在總統舉行曾經提到我們目前國產署"},{"start":229.022,"end":239.362,"text":"我們的軍備局佔領了馬祖85%的土地我想那個部長也在場我跟中院長報告我說如果你是臨江縣的縣長"},{"start":240.799,"end":259.176,"text":"你對馬祖這樣的一個觀光、那麼漂亮的一個島嶼,你怎麼樣去發揮所長?怎麼樣能夠讓它變得更美?所以南甘島跟北甘島的連結,這是非常重要的,因為南甘那邊已經沒有腹地可以蓋了,只有北甘那邊還可以蓋一些觀光旅館"},{"start":261.178,"end":276.849,"text":"所以馬祖需要賴總統在雙十國慶演說的務實的主張而且更要加強南北港跨海大橋也就是馬祖大橋的基礎建設那麼該大橋的綜合計畫已經完成而且由交通部已經呈報到行政院去核定"},{"start":277.799,"end":297.829,"text":"那麼大家都知道金門大橋是國民黨籍馬英九總統的時候合訂的嘛合訂的也蓋好了我們也希望馬祖大橋由民進黨籍的賴總統能夠執政的時候能夠合訂興建況且早已經合訂了綜合計畫我們期盼賴總統和馬祖人民一同貢源馬祖大橋的夢"},{"start":309.19,"end":323.4,"text":"來實現這樣的一個生活品質跟光光亮能那麼我現在簡單的就我們大喬的一個時程107年的時候那時候賴總統同意同意他辦理綜合計畫110年4月23號"},{"start":327.755,"end":352.36,"text":"南北竿大橋綜合規劃的其中報告也完成了110年8月綜合計畫報交通部三次抱怨那麼互踢皮球各打太極拳111年行政院秘書長再檢討本案的公法、經費及計畫效益的修正然後再報行政院113年"},{"start":354.894,"end":367.517,"text":"委託辦理案英國國發會拜託英國、英商、奧維納、工程顧問有限公司、臺北分公司來繼續辦理說他這個完成結案的報告繼續來探討113年5月6日綜合規劃路線長約3.1公里經費288億施工期程大概8年"},{"start":387.317,"end":400.885,"text":"部長,總統賴清德他曾經講,攸關馬祖未來百年發展的大計的橋是馬祖人民應該要得到的大橋案在自己的手中推動,一定要全力促成"},{"start":402.028,"end":424.805,"text":"我在這邊強調的是台灣我昨天也講過蓋了那麼多的高鐵捷運幾百億幾兆我們金門馬祖人民在砲火中成長在戰雲中茁壯我希望部長您上來因為為什麼?這個案子很像在上頭一直在打轉"},{"start":426.052,"end":436.594,"text":"一直在打轉我本來以為說107年賴院長批了以後大概108年中和規劃出來108年、109年中和規劃出來以後可以進入建設計畫所以我前幾天拜託卓院長重視這樣的一個問題因為你不可能無止盡在打轉"},{"start":453.018,"end":478.117,"text":"你從蔡英文總統、蘇貞昌院長、賴清德時任院長到現在都已經貴為總統了他們都答應我說錢不是問題技術你找營商你看600萬的工程去得標但是回答的卻是找世西工程公司世西說沒有問題啊這個大橋在當然它是很艱鉅的"},{"start":479.502,"end":505.008,"text":"你看大陸從平潭到福州的公鐵大橋我親自到現場去看過它水深比馬祖的水域還深它的艱難度比馬祖的還更困難它已經完成了很多完成的例子在那邊所以所謂用技術性的問題在那邊推、拖、拉不是辦法我希望院長你能不能回答我,您的態度怎麼樣?"},{"start":506.447,"end":531.621,"text":"報告委員,當然這個計畫已經走了一長段的時間那過去賴總統也表達過他支持這個案子那現在交通部的部分應該已經也都送到行政院現在就在等國科會、國發會那邊正在審議那委員我知道您希望能夠趕快促成這件事情評議商的報告回來沒有?還沒為什麼?他標案到10月底啊"},{"start":533.683,"end":562.222,"text":"但是這個部分是國發會他們主辦,那委員您今天在這裡交代,我就來去問國發會問說可不可以加速一下,或者是去問一下英商英商的報告也是從世紀裡面抄來的,也是抄本,浪費了這600萬我在這邊老實的講,600萬只夠英商的人事費英國人的薪水是很高的,他待遇是非常高的他跑去問世紀幹什麼?問世紀的水文資料、水深資料,你去問這幹什麼?"},{"start":563.7,"end":578.623,"text":"你能夠有能力,六百萬有能力去鑽探嗎?不可能嘛所以一定是世襲提供的資料所以要查證如果是不可行的話,那就是你們告訴他弄個不可行的報告出來一定是這樣子的我堅信啊"},{"start":579.591,"end":604.933,"text":"我們的四溪市應該是全國最優秀的一個工程公司金門大橋都可以蓋了起來馬祖大橋只有3公里,金門6點多公里有什麼問題?所以公路總局在這一段也沉積了一段時間我也沒有去逼陳局長,我知道問題是在上頭所以部長你能不能跟卓院長碰到賴總統跟他報告一下"},{"start":605.954,"end":629.52,"text":"希望能夠圓我們馬祖人民的一個夢這個大橋是我們馬祖最重要的基礎建設因為兩個座大橋連結起來以後機場才有可能廢掉一座兩座大橋沒有連結起來我們的機場不可能廢掉一座而且現在的機場說真的顯像還生像昨天你看看側風降落是很危險的"},{"start":631.25,"end":643.084,"text":"Go around一次、兩次那一種降落是非常危險的不要說出了事情我們再來後悔都來不及部長您承諾我好不好好,我跟院長、行政院這邊來反映這件事"},{"start":646.049,"end":675.088,"text":"你能不能跟我講一下,不要像前幾任一直在那邊打太極拳、推拖拉、在那邊踢啤酒行就行,不行就不行嘛,什麼原因嘛交通部的程序已經也走完,那也表示說交通部是有方案我沒有怪你們,交通部非常的幫忙那委員在交代的國發會的進度我們來了解,並且希望他們能夠趕快但是這個案子不能一拖再拖、一拖再拖啊是不是?也有人告訴我說,你是交通委員會的召委"},{"start":676.749,"end":704.065,"text":"你就把交通部的預算給他砍掉嘛砍掉個300億、500億你看他給不給你我們總裁也跟我講我們拿到議會去表決嘛 對不對我們做人主決議嘛 我都沒有啊我有責備過你們嗎?我有責難過你們嗎?我從來沒有我從來沒有是不是我們院長也講了啊你預算的東西不要去增加嘛你循著他的程序來走嘛"},{"start":704.554,"end":728.517,"text":"那我已經按照規矩,我也沒跟你鬧啊,我按照規矩,規規矩矩的按照程序在走啦很像是壞了小孩子才有糖吃,乖了小孩子沒糖吃,很像是這樣子我現在的感想越來越像,是不是?我想部長你也不希望我在交通委員會裡面來審你們的預算、砍你們的預算,我來鬧"},{"start":729.554,"end":756.316,"text":"沒有意義嘛是不是你們總是要釋出一點善意你不能欺負好人啦是不是交通部給努力的部分交通部來努力我也幫你們交通部你看也努力了很久我想交通部的同仁也好對陳雪生委員應該都是給我大拇指的是不是當然我也謝謝你們給了我們馬祖很多的建設了但是那是不夠的因為我們真的我們一生出來就是個畸形兒"},{"start":757.817,"end":782.616,"text":"我們飽受戰火的摧殘,到現在為止你看金門的建設,我們要落後金門的建設起碼30年是不是?我拜託部長,在你任內你昨天已經展現魄力了,我希望你今天再一次展現你的魄力好不好?跟莊院長報告、跟賴總統報告,這個事情我看還是要賴總統來拍板莊院長當然他是行政院院長"},{"start":784.698,"end":790.624,"text":"賴總統答應了事,你重新再跟他報告一次好不好?好那謝謝部長,也謝謝局長你們的辛苦,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時21分）謝謝召委。請交通部陳部長還有公路總局陳局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、陳文瑞局長。"],["陳委員雪生：部長早。"],["陳部長世凱：委員早。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝您昨天果斷而且英明的決定，請何局長很努力地處理這件事。"],["陳部長世凱：是，他們會努力處理航班的問題。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我今天要跟你談馬祖大橋，因為自你上任以來，我還沒跟你詳細地談。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：賴總統在行政院長任內核定了馬祖大橋的可行性評估，而且進入了綜合計畫，他也曾經前往現址會勘，而且講過只要可行的話，錢不是問題，較前幾任行政院長對馬祖大橋的作為可以說相對務實。前幾天我也碰到卓院長，還問他馬祖大橋什麼時候決定？他說：「你總預算不要卡關啊！你協助我們啊！我們就讓你過關。」卓院長當然……"],["陳部長世凱：總預算要過，才有辦法建設地方。"],["陳委員雪生：對於他跟我講的，我也很樂意協助，希望讓總預算趕快審查。","賴總統在113年雙十國慶以團結臺灣、共圓夢想為題發表演說，強調「更要加強離島地區的基礎建設，提升生活品質和觀光量能」，由此可見賴總統對離島的務實了解。就我們離島馬祖而言，四十餘年以來，大概只有槍砲聲，沒有基礎建設的機械聲，顯示出我們建設的落後。山上原來種了一些高粱、地瓜，現在沒有了；以前出海有很多黃魚、曾經是黃魚的故鄉啊！現在魚也找不到了。島際交通需乘風破浪，而且夜間不相往來，因為到了晚上沒辦法開船。空中交通的效率奇差無比，來去身不由己，需要碰運氣；來不易、回更難，且常被關島，像昨天側風很大，飛機無法降落，海委會主委到那邊去，還跑到北竿坐飛機回來。所以馬祖說真的需要大家的幫忙。","馬祖大概是由36個島嶼組成的，而且島與島之間有秀麗景色、美不勝收，美中不足的就是沒有橋梁連接，致使人民的生活品質大受影響。你看，現在金門有金門大橋，澎湖有澎湖大橋，我聽楊曜委員講，還要再做一座大橋啦！而馬祖更具有舉世無雙的媽祖肉身靈穴，擁有獨特的「聖地」觀光量能，但是因為缺乏南北竿島際交通基礎建設，縱然南北竿有兩座不合格的小機場，也致使載客量有限，沒有辦法發揮觀光量能。我在總質詢還曾經提到，目前國產署、軍備局占領了馬祖85%土地，那天部長也在場嘛！我跟卓院長報告說，如果你是連江縣的縣長，你對馬祖這樣的觀光勝地、那麼漂亮的島嶼，要怎麼發揮所長？怎麼樣能讓它變得更美？南竿島跟北竿島的連結是非常重要的，因為南竿那邊已經沒有腹地可以蓋了，只有北竿那邊還可以蓋一些觀光旅館。所以馬祖需要賴總統在雙十國慶演說中的務實主張，而且更要加強南北竿跨海大橋、也就是馬祖大橋的基礎建設，該大橋的綜合計畫已經完成，而且由交通部陳報到行政院核定。大家都知道，金門大橋是國民黨籍馬英九總統執政時核定的，也蓋好了，我們也希望馬祖大橋能夠在民進黨籍賴總統執政的時候核定興建，況且早已核定綜合計畫了嘛！所以我們亟盼賴總統和馬祖人民一同共圓馬祖大橋夢，實現提升生活品質和觀光量能的目標。","我現在簡單介紹大橋的時程，107年那時候賴總統同意辦理綜合計畫；110年4月23日，南北竿大橋綜合規劃的期中報告也完成了；110年8月以後，綜合計畫由交通部三次報院，過程中互踢皮球、各打太極拳；111年行政院秘書長要求再檢討本案的工法、經費及計畫效益並修正，再報行政院。113年，國發會委託英商奧雅納工程顧問有限公司台北分公司繼續辦理，也完成了結案報告，繼續探討；113年5月6日，綜合規劃路線長約3.1公里，經費大概288億元，施工期程大概8年。","部長，賴清德總統曾經講，攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋是馬祖人民應該要得到的，大橋案在自己手中推動，一定要全力促成。我在這邊強調的是，我昨天也講過，臺灣蓋了那麼多高鐵、捷運，花了幾百億元、幾兆元啊！是不是？那我們金門、馬祖人民在砲火中成長、在戰雲中茁壯，我希望部長上來完成。為什麼呢？因為這件案子好像在上頭一直打轉、一直打轉，我本來以為107年賴院長批了以後，大概108年、109年綜合規劃出來以後，可以進入建設計畫。所以我前幾天拜託卓院長重視這樣的問題，因為不可能無止盡地打轉嘛！從蔡英文總統、蘇貞昌院長、賴清德時任院長、到現在都已經作為總統了，他們都答應我、說錢不是問題。技術上，你看找了英商得標600萬元工程，回答的卻是找世曦工程公司！世曦說沒有問題啊！當然，這座大橋是很艱鉅的。但你看看大陸從平潭到福州的公鐵大橋，我親自到現場看過，水深比馬祖水域還深，論艱難度，又比馬祖更困難，而它已經完成了。有很多完成的例子，所以用所謂的技術性問題推啊！拖啊！拉啊！不是辦法，部長，您能不能回答我，您的態度怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當然這項計畫已經走了一長段時間，過去賴總統也表達過他支持這個案子，就交通部的部分也都送到行政院，現在就是在等國發會，國發會正在審議。委員，我知道您希望能夠趕快促成這件事情……"],["陳委員雪生：英商的報告回來沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：還沒回來。"],["陳委員雪生：為什麼？標案到10月底啊！"],["陳部長世凱：但這部分是由國發會主辦，既然委員今天在這裡交代，我就去問國發會可不可以加速一下，或者問一下英商為什麼到現在還沒回來。"],["陳委員雪生：英商的報告也是從世曦那邊抄來的、也是抄本，所以浪費了這600萬元，我在這邊要老實地講，600萬元只夠英商的人事費欸！英國人的薪水是很高的、待遇是非常高的，他們跑去問世曦幹什麼？問世曦水文資料、水深資料，但問這個幹什麼？600萬元有能力鑽探嗎？不可能嘛！所以一定是世曦提供的資料。所以你要查證，如果不可行的話，那就是你們就告訴它弄個不可行的報告出來，一定是這樣的！我堅信我們的世曦應該是全國最優秀的工程公司，金門大橋都蓋得起來，馬祖大橋只有3公里，相較於金門大橋有六點多公里，有什麼問題呢？","公路總局也沉寂了一段時間啦！我也沒有去逼陳局長，因為我知道問題在上頭。"],["陳部長世凱：對、是。"],["陳委員雪生：所以，部長能不能跟卓院長、碰到賴總統時也跟他報告一下，希望能圓我們馬祖人民的夢。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：這座大橋是我們馬祖最重要的基礎建設，因為兩座大橋連結以來以後，機場才有可能廢掉一座；要是兩座大橋沒有連結起來，我們的機場不可能廢掉一座。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：而且以現在的機場，說真的險象環生，像昨天那種側風，降落是很危險的，飛機go-around一次、兩次，那種降落是非常危險的，不要等出了事情再後悔，那就來不及了。部長，您承諾我好不好？您看看多久能夠給我回答？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我跟院長和行政院反映這件事。"],["陳委員雪生：你能不能跟我講一下？不要像前幾任一直打太極拳、推拖拉、踢皮球，行就行，不行就不行嘛！告訴我什麼原因嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：交通部的程序已經走完、也表示交通部支持這項方案……"],["陳委員雪生：我沒有怪你們，交通部非常幫忙！"],["陳部長世凱：對，委員交代的國發會進度，我們來了解，並且希望他們能夠趕快。"],["陳委員雪生：但是這個案子不能一拖再拖、一拖再拖啊！是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：也有人告訴我：「你是交通委員會召委，你就把交通部的預算砍掉嘛！砍個三百億元、五百億元，看他給不給你。」我們總召也跟我講，可以拿到院會表決嘛！對不對？做成主決議嘛！但是我都沒有啊！我有責備過你們嗎？我有責難過你們嗎？我從來沒有！我從來沒有，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我們院長也講啦！預算不要增加嘛！循著程序走嘛！而我已經按照規矩、也沒跟你鬧啊！我按照規矩、規規矩矩地按照程序走啦！可是好像壞的小孩才有糖吃，乖的小孩沒糖吃欸！好像是這樣，我現在的感想愈來愈像了。我想，部長也不希望我在交通委員會審你們預算時砍你們的預算、來鬧吧！沒有意義，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你們總是要釋出一點善意，不能欺負好人啊！是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：交通部可以努力的部分，交通部來努力。"],["陳委員雪生：我也幫你們交通部努力了很久，我想，交通部包含同仁也好，對於陳雪生委員應該是……"],["陳部長世凱：大家都知道委員很幫忙。"],["陳委員雪生：應該都是給我大拇指的，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：當然我也謝謝你們給了我們馬祖很多建設，但那是不夠的，因為我們真的一生出來就是個畸形兒，飽受戰火的摧殘。到現在，你看看金門的建設，我們落後金門建設起碼三十年了，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：拜託部長，你昨天已經展現魄力了，我希望你今天再一次展現你的魄力，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力。"],["陳委員雪生：跟卓院長報告、跟賴總統報告。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：我看這件事還是要賴總統來拍板。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：卓院長當然是行政院院長，但也是賴總統答應的事，你再重新跟他報告一次，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長，也謝謝局長你們的辛苦。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來有請陳素月召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156131","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156131","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b08d3fb9792f89778e0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f918d508fe8f4599eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:12:28 - 11:21:28","影片長度":"00:09:00","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:12:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:21:28+08:00","duration":540,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.90846875,"end":5.549093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.83159375,"end":7.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.865343750000001,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.04971875,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.72159375000001,"end":98.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.78346875000001,"end":109.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.60034375000001,"end":117.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.80159375000001,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.11346875000001,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.97721875000002,"end":128.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.01096875000002,"end":128.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.38221875000002,"end":128.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.39909375000002,"end":128.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.41596875000002,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.43284375000002,"end":128.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.46659375000002,"end":128.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.58471875,"end":128.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.71971875,"end":134.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.37284375000002,"end":142.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.08034375,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.57784375,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.04909375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.61846875,"end":164.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.10659375,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.21784375000001,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.02284375000002,"end":190.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.63409375,"end":191.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.27534375000002,"end":196.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.35096875000002,"end":193.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.87784375,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.06721875000002,"end":228.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.04159375,"end":234.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.98159375,"end":244.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.73534375000003,"end":250.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.99596875,"end":251.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.33346875,"end":286.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.97784375000003,"end":295.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.23784375,"end":298.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.06034375,"end":304.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.67534375,"end":310.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.48471875,"end":314.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.53034375000004,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.72284375000004,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.69596875,"end":339.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.58534375000005,"end":377.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.92971875,"end":398.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.62846875,"end":389.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.33596875,"end":404.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.59221875000003,"end":417.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.26096875,"end":422.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.83846875,"end":421.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.85534375000003,"end":422.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.31096875000003,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.96909375,"end":423.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.22221875,"end":423.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.34034375000005,"end":423.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.44159375000004,"end":426.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.31034375,"end":448.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.92284375,"end":460.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.17846875000004,"end":478.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.86346875000004,"end":488.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.98034375000003,"end":486.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.35971875,"end":492.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.28784375000004,"end":490.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.17346875000004,"end":502.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.61909375000005,"end":516.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.1697187500001,"end":517.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.8234687500001,"end":525.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.62471875,"end":521.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.1303437500001,"end":529.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.12534375,"end":539.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.34346875,"end":540.28409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.093,"end":3.757,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳部長、勞動部陳次長"},{"start":15.286,"end":22.148,"text":"客運駕駛缺口問題持續擴大公路級統計1月2年2月缺口1819人到1月3年5月已經擴大到2215人缺口的問題主要集中在市區客運市區客運缺口1、2年2月921人"},{"start":35.231,"end":49.669,"text":"它的缺額暴增到113年5月的1443人增加了將近56.68%這也顯示出駕駛能力的缺口有不斷惡化的趨勢本期要以桃園為例桃園客運是主要的大眾運輸工具目前的駕駛缺額已經高達208人了"},{"start":53.273,"end":63.819,"text":"僅次於臺北的大都會客運228人駕駛不足之間影響到公車班次,讓不少班次被迫取消桃園捷運還在興建中,相較之下,臺北捷運入網相對完整,讓桃園市民困擾駕駛缺工問題,就教部長及常務次長"},{"start":74.204,"end":88.638,"text":"那客運業者認為駕駛缺的問題主要是三個原因第一個是日少子化再來是大環境對於客運駕駛不友善也造成客運駕駛給他們帶來很大的身心壓力那社會的普遍認知都覺得"},{"start":89.859,"end":108.826,"text":"開公車、開客運這份工作很辛苦啊那導致這個行業它的吸引力不足部長想請教您這個是不是主要的原因我想這些都是蠻重要的原因啦那另外就是說對於這個勞動條件跟這個工作環境的部分對駕駛員來說當然也是相當的重要"},{"start":109.919,"end":126.238,"text":"本席認為如果駕駛區域持續下去會導致班次減少班次減少又會降低民眾的搭乘意願民眾不去搭乘的話又會造成公司的虧損進而再減班會導致會形成一個沒有班次然後沒有乘客的惡性循環部長、次長您認同嗎"},{"start":129.562,"end":140.43,"text":"我蠻認同的啦我也很擔心他走入一個惡性循環的狀態是 那次長這邊就叫次長那個勞動部是我國的勞工就主事我國勞工相關問題面對這樣的問題勞動部有解決的方案嗎"},{"start":143.106,"end":170.749,"text":"是跟委員報告就是客運業缺工當然早上歷來在討論就是說是一個長期的趨勢那因為疫情受到很大影響那他有什麼方案我們目前大概幾個做法第一個我們跟交通部一起對於國內人員的價值的培訓也在持續進行當中那他們有相關的專案的方案那第二個部分確實國內的人口結構變化也真的少了人"},{"start":171.209,"end":199.377,"text":"所以我們考量的結果在中階技術人力會開放到科運業那這部分這些中階技術尤其是橋外生他本來就在本地念書市長請問我們一年有多少橋外生一年大概未來的整個的狀況大概一年會有1.2萬的橋外生但現在目前會很多橋外生畢業之後是回國那所以我們會希望他繼續留在臺灣本地是部長您認為橋外生能夠解決司機缺額的問題嗎"},{"start":200.677,"end":228.428,"text":"目前是還沒有開始使用目前還是在勞動部法制化的過程我們希望能夠補齊我們目前提的上限是554人如果可以補齊的話對我們來說當然是一部分的缺額可以補得上來不過我們還是有其他的缺額所以其實我們還在努力當然我們本國的勞工要優先優先來徵求另外對於移工的部分我們也會拜託勞動部是不是可以再放寬更寬一些"},{"start":229.276,"end":250.41,"text":"我們就橋外生投入大客車的價值市場我們來分三個層次來看112年來說我們全國一共補助632人那為新竹建立所才20人解決桃竹苗的價值問題成效不彰那再來是我們要如何吸引橋外生投入客運價值市場那橋外生他的能力培訓可以足以通過考試跟勝任這份工作嗎"},{"start":251.43,"end":277.14,"text":"有關於橋外生當然因為我們的駕駛必須要職業證照所以我們還是會將來橋外生有意願從這個我們還是跟交通部會進行培訓的工作考取相關證照才會出來但是這部分還是要跟委員報告就是說橋外生中階技術人力他只是其中的一個補充的方式他不是完全的解方所以我們基本上未來再如何讓我們的"},{"start":277.98,"end":294.768,"text":"大客車駕駛的薪資勞動條件能夠提升讓他可以持續留在這個職場才是重點否則有人進來我們接下來是不是要考量到他們留下來的意願因為他們不只可以投入到駕駛客運的這個市場他們也可以選擇其他工作"},{"start":296.26,"end":316.977,"text":"老公部有把握他們他們會選擇因為其實跟我們報告本地的勞工也是同樣的問題就是剛才講的就是有一些可能會跑去開Uber或走到其他他可能工作談刑或薪資比較高或條件那我們針對喬愛森他們的搜尋管理還有保險那這方面有完整的配套措施嗎這部分我們到我們現在在那個喬愛森"},{"start":319.178,"end":338.729,"text":"開放他從事客運業之後我們今年年底會把勞動部這邊相關的法制修整完畢修整完畢之後我們就會配套的跟消動部去合作讓他考照然後相應的配套讓他的部分可以進來到我們的那個客運業OK 請再提供本席書面資料次長您可以先請回謝謝委員"},{"start":340.643,"end":360.296,"text":"那再來我們看到部長我們看到勞動部的統計外送成員人員從108年的4.5萬人增加到113年7月的14.7萬人這個增幅高達三倍之多那這使得機車臨時停車的需求大幅上升在都會區停車位本來就很稀缺了那有外送人員他們因為為了要快速送餐"},{"start":360.916,"end":376.594,"text":"那他們會把他們的車停放在紅線上這也導致了紅線的比例增加那成為交通亂象之一況且他們常被罰這也讓他們感到非常辛苦和無奈對這個問題交通部有沒有什麼解決方案來改送外送員停車的問題"},{"start":378.015,"end":404.03,"text":"是當然停車的部分它主要俠管是在地方政府不過我們還是會盡量去跟他們溝通跟協調尤其針對這些營業的摩托車有沒有一些停放處可以制定例如說比較接近夜市或者是比較外送店家比較集中的區域有沒有可能去設置這樣的設置部長您提到地方政府我們來看到像例如台北、新北、台中都有他們都有設立外送"},{"start":404.73,"end":422.207,"text":"的林庭區那中央目前還沒有針對外送林區制定相關的法規那各級單位只能各自為政那各自應對那交通部作為全國的交通法規和政策的主要機關應該將機車林庭區納入法規體系並制定相關的規範這邊交通部有在是不是我請師長"},{"start":423.868,"end":445.94,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下因為發射007的部分最主要目前是透過標線的方式來做發射那以現行這個標線的發射的話包括汽車、包括汽車、包括專用停車格位等等部分因此上都可以來做營業那最主要的部分就是說地方政府怎麼來做規劃那譬如說像現行台北市他用這一個各類營業車輛共用這一個營業車輛"},{"start":448.882,"end":449.262,"text":"我們來做了解"},{"start":465.572,"end":491.839,"text":"外送的一個行業部分也是在各縣市慢慢做發展那其他有需求的這一個縣市的部分的話我們來向其他設比較早的那個部分提供這個經驗給其他縣市本席建議希望交通部可以盡快收集各級的機關設立機車臨停區的相關資料並納入法規那交通部接下來這邊會再去收集嗎會接下來我們會收集一些資料然後朝這個方向"},{"start":492.619,"end":519.289,"text":"在今年年初媒體有報導為了讓臺北車站周邊的交通更加順暢因此周邊有很多地方都設紅線禁止停車這使得外送員他們擔心被開罰然後進而不願意接臺北車站周邊的訂單那本席認為這種情況不僅發生在臺北車站而桃園高鐵站也有面臨類似的問題不然我們的盧昭偉也不會建議高鐵桃園站也要設外送臨停區那這邊建議部長是"},{"start":521.17,"end":538.742,"text":"要求台鐵和高鐵針對全國各級車站進行盤點這邊交通部能做到嗎如果有這方面的需求的車站周圍我們都朝這個方向來努力OK 那就希望部長可以再協助解決外送員他們臨停的問題希望交通部可以努力來推動好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時12分）謝謝主席。主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["邱委員若華：請勞動部陳次長。"],["主席：請勞動部陳次長。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長，我們看到客運駕駛缺口的問題持續擴大，根據公路局統計，112年2月缺額是1,819人，到了113年5月已經擴大到2,215人，缺額問題主要集中在市區客運，市區客運缺額從112年2月921人暴增到113年5月的1,443人，增加了將近56.68%，這也顯示出駕駛人力的缺口有不斷惡化的趨勢。本席要以桃園為例，桃園客運是主要的大眾運輸工具，目前駕駛缺額已經高達208人了，僅次於臺北大都會客運的228人，駕駛不足直接影響公車班次，讓不少班次被迫取消。我們桃園的捷運還在興建中，相較之下，臺北的捷運路網是相對完整，這也讓桃園市民很困擾。","我以駕駛的缺工問題就教部長還有常務次長，客運業者認為駕駛缺額問題主要有3個原因，第一個是少子化，再來是大環境對於客運駕駛不友善，也給客運駕駛帶來很大的身心壓力。另外，以社會的普遍認知，也都覺得開公車、開客運這份工作很辛苦，導致這個行業吸引力不足，部長，我想請教您，這是不是主要的原因？"],["陳部長世凱：我想這些都是滿重要的原因，另外，勞動條件跟工作環境的部分，對駕駛員來說當然也相當地重要。"],["邱委員若華：本席認為如果駕駛缺額持續下去會導致班次減少，而班次減少又會降低民眾的搭乘意願，民眾不搭乘的話又會造成公司虧損，進而再減班，會形成一個沒有班次、沒有乘客的惡性循環，部長、次長，你們能認同嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我滿認同的啦！我也很擔心走入惡性循環的狀態。"],["邱委員若華：針對次長這邊我要就教，勞動部主事我國勞工相關問題，面對這樣的問題，勞動部有解決方案嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，客運業缺工早上一路以來都在討論，這是長期趨勢，因為疫情受到很大影響，很多人……"],["邱委員若華：那有什麼方案？"],["陳次長明仁：目前大概有幾個作法，第一，我們跟交通部一起，對國內駕駛人員的培訓持續進行當中，他們有相關專案方案。第二部分，在國內人口結構變化上也真的少了人，所以我們考量的結果，中階技術人力會開放到客運業。這些中階技術人力尤其僑外生本來就在本地念書……"],["邱委員若華：次長，請問我國一年有多少僑外生？"],["陳次長明仁：以未來的整個狀況，一年大概會有1.2萬個僑外生，但目前很多僑外生畢業之後就回國，所以我們會希望他們繼續留在臺灣本地。"],["邱委員若華：部長，您認為僑外生能夠解決司機缺額的問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前還沒有開始使用，還在勞動部法制化的過程。我們是希望能補齊，目前提的上限是554人，如果可以補齊的話，對我們來說當然有一部分缺額補得上來。不過還是有其他缺額，所以其實我們還在努力。當然，本國勞工要優先徵求，另外，對於移工部分，我們也會拜託勞動部放得更寬一些。"],["邱委員若華：就僑外生投入大客車駕駛市場，我們分三個層次來看，以112年來說，全國一共補助632人，惟新竹監理所才20人，解決桃竹苗駕駛問題成效不彰。再來是要如何吸引僑外生投入客運駕駛市場，僑外生的能力經過培訓足以通過考試跟勝任這份工作嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：關於僑外生，當然駕駛人必須有職業證照，所以將來要是僑外生有意願從事這些工作，我們還是會跟交通部進行培訓工作，他們考取相關證照才會出來。但這部分還是要跟委員報告，僑外生中階技術人力只是其中一個補充方式，不是完全的解方。基本上，未來如何讓公車駕駛的薪資、勞動條件能夠提升、讓他可以持續留在這個職場才是重點，否則有人進來……"],["邱委員若華：接下來勢必也要考量到他們留下來的意願，因為他們不只可以投入客運駕駛的市場，也可以選擇其他工作，勞動部有把握他們會選擇……"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，其實本地勞工方面也有同樣問題，就是如剛才講的，有一些可能會跑去開Uber或走向其他工作彈性或薪資比較高的工作，所以我們必須整體……"],["邱委員若華：針對僑外生的受訓、管理還有保險這方面有完整的配套措施嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：關於這部分，我們現在開放僑外生從事客運業之後，今年年底會把勞動部這邊的相關法制修整完畢，修整完畢之後，我們就會配套地跟交通部合作，包括讓他們考照等相應配套，可以進到客運業。"],["邱委員若華：OK，請再提供本席書面資料。"],["陳次長明仁：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：次長可以先請回。"],["陳次長明仁：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員若華：部長，再來我們看到勞動部的統計顯示，外送從業人員從108年的4.5萬人增加到113年7月的14.7萬人，增幅高達3倍之多，也使得機車臨時停車的需求大幅上升。在都會區，停車位本來就很稀缺了，有外送人員為了快速送餐不得不把車停放在紅線上，也導致紅線違停的比例增加，成為交通亂象之一。況且，常被罰也讓他們感到非常辛苦和無奈，對於這個問題，交通部有沒有什麼解決方案可改善外送員停車的問題？"],["陳部長世凱：當然停車的主要轄管是在地方政府，不過我們還是會儘量跟他們溝通和協調，尤其針對這些營業的摩托車有沒有停放處可以制定，例如在比較接近夜市或外送店家比較集中的區域有沒有可能作這樣的設置，我們正在討論。"],["邱委員若華：部長，您提到地方政府，我們也看到，例如臺北、新北、臺中都有設立外送臨停區，而中央目前還沒有針對外送臨停區制定相關法規，各級單位只能各自為政、各自應對。交通部作為主管全國交通法規和政策的主要機關，應該將機車臨停區納入法規體系，並制定相關規範，交通部有在做嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我請司長說明。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，在劃設臨停區部分，目前最主要是透過標線方式作劃設，以現行標線劃設來說，包括汽車、包括機車、包括專用停車格位等等，原則上都可以考慮，最主要的是地方政府怎麼規劃，比如，現行臺北市是用各類營業車輛共用營業車輛臨停區……"],["邱委員若華：根據本席的了解，最早設立外送臨停區的是臺北市北一女附近，設立於108年11月，至今已經超過4年，應該有足夠數據可以提供給交通部吧？交通部有沒有在作研究？"],["林司長福山：我們來了解。至於其他縣市，也因為外送行業在各縣市慢慢發展，對於其他有需求的縣市，我們會請設置比較早的縣市提供經驗給其他縣市參考。"],["邱委員若華：本席建議交通部儘快蒐集各級機關設立機車臨停區的相關資料，並納入法規，交通部接下來會去蒐集嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：會，接下來我們會蒐集一些資料，朝這個方向研議。"],["邱委員若華：今年年初媒體曾報導，為了讓臺北車站周邊交通更加順暢，周邊有很多地方都設了紅線禁止停車，使外送員擔心被開罰，進而不願意接臺北車站周邊的訂單。本席認為這種情況不僅發生在臺北車站，桃園高鐵站也面臨類似問題，不然魯召委也不會建議高鐵桃園站也要設外送臨停區，而我這邊建議部長要求臺鐵和高鐵針對全國各級車站進行盤點，交通部能主導嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，如果在有這方面需求的車站周圍，我們都會朝這個方向努力。"],["邱委員若華：OK，那就希望部長可以再協助解決外送員臨停的問題，也希望交通部努力推動。以上，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來有請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156130","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156130","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b418be9bd61c16257e0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f9294d796a60933aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:02:44 - 11:12:13","影片長度":"00:09:29","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:02:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:12:13+08:00","duration":569,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.37221875,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.50659375,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.80034375,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.57221875,"end":19.825343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.81471875000001,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.97909375,"end":89.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.09721875000001,"end":89.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.11409375000001,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.18159375,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.28284375000001,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.92784375000001,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.36784375,"end":162.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.26846875000001,"end":128.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.43159375000002,"end":208.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.47971875000002,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.87596875000003,"end":209.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.01346875000002,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.77284375000002,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.97096875000003,"end":249.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.66284375,"end":259.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.45034375,"end":290.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.71971875,"end":319.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.53221875,"end":304.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.38846875,"end":304.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.77659375,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.96221875000003,"end":305.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.03596875,"end":328.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.98096875000005,"end":320.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.26784375,"end":320.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.97534375000004,"end":349.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.11971875,"end":360.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.64971875000003,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.97096875,"end":399.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.64784375000005,"end":400.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.67721875,"end":403.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.60909375,"end":442.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.51034375,"end":443.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.10096875000005,"end":467.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.69409375000004,"end":454.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.28284375000004,"end":496.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.67909375000005,"end":497.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.10096875000005,"end":498.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.09659375,"end":498.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.73784375,"end":498.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.75471875000005,"end":530.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.00284375,"end":568.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.56846875,"end":556.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.11534375,"end":568.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.7690937500001,"end":568.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.7859687499999,"end":569.4609687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.714,"end":6.863,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長還有公務局陳局長陳公務局局長"},{"start":17.99,"end":39.346,"text":"部長、局長早我想本席也有很多這個在從事這個長途運輸的一個朋友啦業者的朋友啦那當然從最近這幾年這個整個大環境的這個影響他們其實也是叫苦連天啦不敢挨啦因為他們不是只有考慮他們自己的生計還有會花這麼多錢都仰賴他們的這個生活啦"},{"start":42.708,"end":70.118,"text":"那當然目前大概我們現在聽起來他們面對的很多的問題包含不只是缺工然後還有長途運輸這個所謂一個勞基法的一個規定的問題甚至這個我們司機違規祭典在靠這個車的車是他們的財產他們也是滿腹的委屈甚至這個萬物皆漲他們運費不敢漲為什麼因為怕其他競爭者的銷價競爭之後沒有生意可以做"},{"start":70.638,"end":84.246,"text":"所以其實他們一直很想要找一個時間跟我們相關的單位來做一個對話也聽聽他們的滿腹的委屈還有一些政策面的一個檢討那我想部長跟局長這部分是不是有沒有機會能夠讓他們能夠來做一個對話的一個機會"},{"start":88.341,"end":111.924,"text":"這個可以啦 我們跟業者之間的溝通跟互動我想公路局應該時常在做對 沒有問題 更限的運輸工會包括貨運、客運的話其實我們各地區的監理所站都有定期跟他們有做相關的溝通如果說有特別的需要 比如說要包括他們的群聯會要跟公路局來做相關的一個建議的話我想我們都會非常歡迎"},{"start":112.546,"end":126.251,"text":"我想當然交通部是站在一個這個整個交通這個安全的一個整體的考量那當然我們許多不一樣的團體都有各自的一個陳情跟一個訴求那也希望我們有機會可以跟大貨車這個運輸公會來做一個對話這個沒問題"},{"start":128.632,"end":157.458,"text":"那有幾個問題要就交一下請我們部長跟局長來幫忙那今年7月份我召開一個會刊針對我們墾丁國家公園南灣的一個人行步道這個人行步道已經鋪了20幾年不只現在坑坑洞洞而且它因為缺乏一個排水溝的一個設施只要下雨就會積水那我想南灣是一個國際的觀光景點這問民不可看啦那請教一下部長跟局長"},{"start":158.318,"end":184.633,"text":"這部分自從我會刊之後目前有沒有最近的進度什麼時候可以來施工還是我跟委員報告委員會刊之後的話第一個就是說在經費上面沒有問題因為經費上面就是說我們行政院已經有核定一個永續提升人行安全的計畫所以我們經費沒有問題那人行道的設施的施作也沒有問題只是說因為當地南灣是屬於這個墾丁國家公園管理處"},{"start":185.353,"end":206.313,"text":"他在9月的時候其實9月23號其實整個他有提到就是說整個周邊南灣的他的公共設施他有做一些檢討那所以就是說我們在會確認就是說肯定國家公民管理處就是說對於這邊屬於我們人行步道他還有沒有其他建議啦如果說他沒有說特別需要我們在協助的部分我們就"},{"start":207.213,"end":231.712,"text":"這部分我想請部長幫忙因為就是因為我們發現到這必須要跨部會整合這個整個包含這個墾丁國家公園一些公共設施的問題包含墾丁大街未來要人車分道這些問題都必須要跨部會整合所以會有要求我們的內政部在9月份開的這個會議那具體的一些結論大概都有已經有一些共識那所以未來也希望"},{"start":232.372,"end":248.38,"text":"肯定不是只有這個洋傘之亂啊不是也只有一些被這個消費污名化那我覺得公路總局公路局還有我們交通部公共署我們都責無旁貸一起來重新振興我們恆春半島的觀光這點也麻煩部長跟局長我們加快腳步"},{"start":250.161,"end":272.772,"text":"對那第二個就是針對猴想每次風災我們就發現一個狀況像這次山坨颱風我們整個省道系統都不是秦島要不然就是支離破碎那當然我知道我們公路局在這個樹種的規劃上面當然有一些的選擇但是我們發現可能這些未來針對所謂的一個"},{"start":273.952,"end":274.872,"text":"這部分是不是可以請公眾總局來做一個檢討?"},{"start":290.757,"end":316.548,"text":"好 報告委員 這個部分我們會來做檢討 不過我們這個部分大部分是配合農業部也跟農業部來請教說要種哪一些原生樹種 這是第一個第二個種植的方案 種植的方法怎麼樣才會穩固我們這個部分其實都是結合農業部一起在討論不過每次颱風我們就可以檢討一次啦 有哪些路數是容易倒塌的那這個部分我們就來檢討說未來可能就不要用這樣的路數"},{"start":317.088,"end":334.927,"text":"因為我們管轄的路段相當的長有時候也造成我們這個開口企業如果沒有馬上去處理確實會造成很多的危險性這不能再麻煩我們部長跟局長的協助那另外針對我們屏東台17線臨邊路段有一個鎮安村這個地方我也有去會勘過"},{"start":335.948,"end":360.225,"text":"那因為這部分上下有的整治的部分牽扯到我們所謂的農水署也好還有包含大盤灣管理處這部分我們都已經協調完成但唯一的部分就是台17線的下面這個寒凍口徑太小了而且你上面宣洩不及到台17線很容易就造成一個淹水的一個情形這部分是不是請局長這邊可以要求馬上來趕快做處理"},{"start":360.725,"end":383.216,"text":"但是跟委員報告確實就是說因為整個的區域的排水它包括台17的上下游就像委員剛所提到的還有涉及到龍水署跟大鵬灣國家那個管理處那所以就是說上下游的處理跟配合我們這邊的一個航管的一個擴大它的一個排水量那屬於我們台17線的部分我們會來處理"},{"start":384.436,"end":400.763,"text":"對 另外還有針對我們臨邊交通道下來接到我們台10級線系統的時候那邊也有一段滴瓦的地段也造成容易積水車沒路過啦這部分是不是請公務局來一併來趕快來做作為一個排水系統的一個檢討沒問題就這樣 那這個部分我們再找時間趕快來會看一下"},{"start":404.93,"end":425,"text":"那另外我想這邊我們也要肯定我們公路局我們在台26線就是我們墾丁香蕉灣路段我們打造了一個全國第一個路線的一個廊道那也被譽為一個很有善的一個生態有溫度的一個幸福公園那甚至也是我們這個進入講這個景觀的一個這個大熱門的一個路段"},{"start":425.64,"end":441.754,"text":"那除了這個路段之外我們在車城、龜山、到福安橋這邊也有我們的一些我們的生態團體也有建議可以來做一個生態廊道那麼也是一個很豐富的一個生態資源這部分是不是可以請公務局來協助一下我們一起來努力"},{"start":443.389,"end":465.543,"text":"是,各位委員報告就是我們目前屬於自己省道台246的部分我們已經做了,把它抬高那委員所提到的這一個路段是屬於平152線是屬於這個鄉道啦那所以就是說這個公路系統在縣府這邊主管的話其實它有相關的這些的考量的話其實我們會用相關的一個計劃經費來協助他們"},{"start":467.444,"end":489.865,"text":"對我想因為我們有台26線很好的一個經驗然後以及我們整個就是每逢這個尤其暑假期間我們還有志工在那邊互卸管制這真的做得非常非常的好啦那我想未來也希望這個針對路線的安全給予一個最好的一個安全回家的一個路那我想剛剛我們很多的委員也提到所謂的一個外送的一個"},{"start":491.306,"end":516.862,"text":"運費的調整這些案子部長我知道您最近有跟消基會在做討論有沒有雜音目前是這樣之前是因為聯繫要開會的這個過程當中沒有聯繫好所以造成他們一些誤解我們陳局長也特別去拜會過消基會的董事長他們對這方面聽完我們的希望能夠透明化的原因之後其實他態度上也是相當贊成"},{"start":518.163,"end":529.313,"text":"那或許下禮拜三我們會有一個座談會我們已經約好了那消基會也會來參與那外送員的工會也會來參與業者也會來參與我們各方一起來做一個好好的協商跟討論"},{"start":531.258,"end":551.356,"text":"我想這個事情也是知識體大了是因為包含我們的政府也好我們的外送的一個業者還有我們的店家、外送員甚至消費者我們如果創造這個五贏的局面我想交通部也要責務旁貸了沒錯尤其這個在不管在每一個環節裡面怎麼樣去檢討這個可能出現的問題怎麼樣去務實地解決問題我想部長請部長這邊是我們先不要做"},{"start":558.362,"end":568.102,"text":"這是很好的一個服務但是造成一些消費者糾紛甚至造成店家一些負面的新聞總是都不是好事情這部分再請部長這邊能夠多用心這部分我們來努力謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時2分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長還有公路局陳局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、陳文瑞局長。"],["徐委員富癸：部長、局長，早。本席也有很多從事長途運輸業的業者朋友，最近這幾年受到整個大環境的影響，他們其實也是叫苦連天，卻不敢抱怨，因為他們不是只考慮自己的生計，下面還有很多司機也都仰賴他們生活。目前以我聽來，他們大概要面對很多問題，不只包含缺工，還有長途運輸涉及勞基法規定的問題，甚至司機違規記點扣車，而車是他們的財產啊！他們也是滿腹的委屈。還有萬物皆漲，他們的運費卻不敢漲，為什麼？因為怕其他競爭者削價競爭後沒有生意可以做。所以他們其實一直很想找一個時間跟相關單位對話，聽聽他們滿腹的委屈還有談談政策面的檢討，請問部長跟局長有沒有跟他們對話的機會？"],["陳部長世凱：可以啊！我們跟業者之間的溝通跟互動，我想公路局應該時常在做。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，沒有問題，針對各縣運輸公會，包括貨運、客運，其實各地區監理所站都有定期跟他們作相關溝通。如果有特別的需要，比如，他們的全聯會要向公路局提出相關建議，我們都會非常歡迎。"],["徐委員富癸：交通部當然是站在交通安全整體考量，但許多不一樣的團體也都有各自的陳情跟訴求，希望你們有機會可以跟大貨車運輸公會對話。"],["陳部長世凱：這個沒有問題。"],["徐委員富癸：還有幾個問題要就教一下，請部長跟局長幫忙。今年7月我召開一場會勘，是針對墾丁國家公園南灣的人行步道，該人行步道已經鋪了二十幾年，現在不只坑坑洞洞，而且因為缺乏排水溝的設施，只要下雨就會積水。南灣是國際觀光景點，這樣的門面不好看啦！請教部長跟局長，自從我會勘之後，這部分有沒有最新進度？什麼時候可以施工？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，委員會勘之後，第一，經費上沒有問題，因為行政院已經核定永續提升人行安全計畫，所以經費沒有問題，人行道設施的施作也沒有問題。只是因為南灣當地屬於墾丁國家公園管理處，而他們9月23日其實提到有針對整個南灣周邊的公共設施做檢討，所以我們會再確認墾丁國家公園管理處對於這邊的人行步道還有沒有其他建議，如果沒有特別需要我們再協助的部分，我們就依照計畫來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：我知道，但我想這部分還是要請部長幫忙，因為我們發現必須跨部會整合整個墾丁國家公園公共設施的問題，包含墾丁大街未來要人車分道，這些問題都必須跨部會整合，所以我要求內政部在9月開這項會議，對於具體結論大概都已經有一些共識。墾丁不是只有洋傘之亂，也不是只有消費被污名化，公路局和交通部、觀光署都責無旁貸，要一起重新振興恆春半島的觀光，這點也麻煩部長跟局長加快腳步。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，我們會加快腳步。"],["徐委員富癸：第二，每次風災我們就會發現一個狀況，像這次山陀兒颱風期間，整個省道系統的樹不是傾倒、要不然就是枝葉支離破碎。當然我知道公路局在樹種規劃上有一些選擇，但我們發現未來因應樹穴工法還有深根需要，樹種的選擇是不是有必要重新檢討？要不然每逢颱風、樹一倒，就影響到整個交通動線，也壓到車子，非常、非常危險，這部分是不是可以請公路總局檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這部分我們會檢討，不過我們在這方面大部分是配合農業部，也向農業部請教要種哪些原生樹種，這是第一點。第二是種植的方案、種植的方法，怎麼樣才能穩固……"],["徐委員富癸：一定要採深根啦！不採深根的話……"],["陳部長世凱：要釘根啦！至於怎麼釘根，我們在這部分其實都是結合農業部一起討論。不過，每次颱風就可以檢討一次啦！有哪些路樹是容易倒塌的，我們就會檢討，未來可能就不要用這樣的路樹。"],["徐委員富癸：因為交通部管轄的路段相當長，有時候開口契約如果沒有馬上處理，確實會造成很多危險性，這部分再麻煩部長跟局長協助。","針對屏東臺17線林邊路段鎮安村這個地方，我也去會勘過，由於上下游的整治牽扯到農水署、大鵬灣管理處，這部分我們都已經協調完成，唯一問題就是臺17縣下面這個涵洞口徑太小了，上面宣洩不及，到了臺17線就很容易造成淹水的情形，針對這部分，可不可以請局長要求馬上處理？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，整個區域的排水、包括臺17線的上下游，確實就像委員剛剛所提到的，還涉及農水署跟大鵬灣國家風景區管理處，所以包括上下游的處理以及配合我們擴大涵管的排水量，屬於臺17線的部分我們會處理。"],["徐委員富癸：還有林邊交流道下來接臺17線系統的時候，那邊也有一段低窪地段，造成容易積水，車輛沒辦法通過，這部分是不是請公路局一併趕快作排水系統的檢討？"],["陳局長文瑞：沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：局長，這部分我們也趕快再找時間會勘一下。"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["徐委員富癸：我也要肯定公路局在臺26線墾丁香蕉灣路段打造了全國第一個陸蟹廊道，也被譽為很友善生態、有溫度的幸福公園，甚至也是金路獎景觀類獎項的大熱門路段。除了這個路段之外，針對車城龜山橋到福安橋之間也有生態團體建議作生態廊道，當地也有很豐富的生態資源，這部分是不是可以請公路局協助一下，我們一起來努力？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，目前屬於我們自己主管、省道臺26線的部分已經作了擡高。至於委員所提到的這個路段是屏152線，屬於鄉道，如果在縣府這邊對於所主管公路系統有相關考量的話，我們也會以相關經費協助他們。"],["徐委員富癸：既然有臺26線這個很好的經驗，尤其每逢暑假期間，還有志工在那邊護蟹管制，真的做得非常、非常地好啦！未來也希望針對陸蟹給予最好、安全回家的路。","剛剛很多委員也提到外送運費調整這些案子，部長，我知道你們最近也在跟消基會討論。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：有沒有雜音？"],["陳部長世凱：目前是這樣，之前是因為在聯繫開會的過程當中沒有聯繫好，所以造成他們一些誤解，陳局長也特別去拜會過消基會董事長，他們聽完我們希望能夠透明化的原因之後，其實態度上也是相當贊成。或許下禮拜三我們會有一場座談會，我們已經約好了，消基會會來參與、外送員工會會來參與、業者也會來參與，各方一起好好地協商跟討論。"],["徐委員富癸：這件事也是茲事體大，包含政府也好、外送業者、店家、外送員、甚至消費者，如何創造五贏的局面，我想交通部也責無旁貸。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其不管在哪一個環節裡面，怎麼檢討可能出現的問題、怎麼務實地解決問題，請部長費心。這是很好的服務，若造成一些消費糾紛、甚至造成店家一些負面新聞，總不是好事情，這部分再請部長能夠多用心。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們多多努力。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","接下來有請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156126","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156126","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bc9f8ce329b0f0f31ab8b279c62a4e0dc5966be1ac5b6e0f96075f793af8843da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"11:52:01 - 12:09:41","影片長度":"00:17:40","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:52:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:09:41+08:00","duration":1060,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.77596875,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.63596875,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23.11596875,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.15784375,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.305343750000002,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.033468750000004,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.46159375,"end":113.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.71784375,"end":186.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.14096875,"end":215.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.50784375,"end":223.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.49034375000002,"end":219.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.23659375000003,"end":229.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.92784375000002,"end":228.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.15971875000002,"end":255.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.15971875,"end":293.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.43659375000004,"end":314.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.93534375,"end":317.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.06159375000004,"end":319.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.66034375000004,"end":320.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.31846875,"end":322.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.43659375000004,"end":320.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.41096875,"end":357.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.52784375000005,"end":362.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.58596875,"end":380.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.27096875,"end":407.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.03909375,"end":408.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.99659375000005,"end":439.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.29971875,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.97471875,"end":447.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.03284375000004,"end":462.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.42284375,"end":462.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.16534375000003,"end":463.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.46909375,"end":463.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.05971875,"end":493.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.02971875000003,"end":504.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.15471875000003,"end":505.82534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.87596875,"end":553.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.6828437500001,"end":553.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.6997187500001,"end":553.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.7165937500001,"end":553.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.75034375,"end":553.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.8515937500001,"end":574.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.02846875,"end":556.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.70909375,"end":595.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.4272187500001,"end":604.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.40909375,"end":617.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.21284375,"end":634.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.9865937500001,"end":642.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.90096875,"end":647.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.9297187500001,"end":651.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.8953437499999,"end":684.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.12659375,"end":694.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.70721875,"end":694.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.79159375,"end":695.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.1965937500001,"end":695.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.68596875,"end":695.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.97284375,"end":701.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.06409375,"end":707.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.8484687499999,"end":709.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.3459687500001,"end":712.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.27409375,"end":712.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.7253437500001,"end":731.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.0178437500001,"end":761.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.93721875,"end":771.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.64034375,"end":772.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":773.4797187500001,"end":778.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":778.89659375,"end":782.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":782.82846875,"end":799.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.2865937500001,"end":794.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":800.27721875,"end":811.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.2009687500001,"end":802.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":812.14034375,"end":815.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":815.65034375,"end":817.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":817.87784375,"end":818.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":818.83971875,"end":822.4678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":822.7040937500001,"end":826.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":826.73721875,"end":828.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":827.9522187500002,"end":828.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":828.2390937500002,"end":828.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.25596875,"end":845.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":846.24471875,"end":856.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":856.52159375,"end":859.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":859.74471875,"end":862.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":863.2378437500001,"end":864.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":864.6215937500001,"end":871.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":868.7390937500002,"end":869.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":870.4265937500002,"end":872.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":872.89034375,"end":878.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":878.34096875,"end":881.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":881.85096875,"end":893.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":885.5634687500001,"end":886.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":893.6128437500001,"end":898.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":898.4053437500002,"end":898.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":898.9453437500001,"end":924.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":923.78534375,"end":934.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":934.0790937500001,"end":965.6353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":965.66909375,"end":965.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":965.7197187500001,"end":973.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":973.98846875,"end":978.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":978.9834687500002,"end":982.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":982.4597187500001,"end":983.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":983.3372187500001,"end":985.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":985.9865937500001,"end":990.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":990.57659375,"end":998.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":998.6597187500001,"end":1017.9478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1018.2009687500001,"end":1025.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1025.6934687500002,"end":1039.7840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1038.85596875,"end":1039.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1039.7840937500002,"end":1039.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1039.96971875,"end":1054.6678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1040.0372187500002,"end":1040.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1054.9378437500002,"end":1057.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1055.0728437500002,"end":1057.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1057.82346875,"end":1057.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1057.8740937500002,"end":1057.8909687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.783,"end":35.493,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請司法院黃副秘書長麻煩複密順道請那個我們法務部的黃次長跟我們廉政署的馮署長好馮署長好那我等一下如果有時間最後面我會請教我們警政署的張署長那後面再請好了好謝謝主席那"},{"start":38.083,"end":62.317,"text":"各位首長午安了那我們今天就這個刑事訴訟法當中部分條文的這個修正進行併案的討論特別是對於我們上會期所通過的特殊強制處分的這個章節上有討論的空間那這邊我想就這個刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十的內容來就交與我們副秘書長"},{"start":63.517,"end":83.024,"text":"從司法院的書面報告當中我們對於本條在立場上似乎是有傾向維持現行版本但是在提案當中也提到現行法只允許對法官檢察官所為的科技偵查來做救濟未能充分的保障受處分者"},{"start":83.664,"end":104.689,"text":"可能有違背這個有權利及救濟的這個法理原則。那這邊我想請教副秘也請您這個說明認為我們現行制度的在實務情形上不需再增訂的理由以及我們司法院對於這個司法資源分配上所產生的疑慮為何。"},{"start":106.656,"end":130.336,"text":"跟委員報告齁 那我們書面報告也有寫說其實各個國家齁 針對這種短期像那個如果說是比較長期的齁 像他超過24小時或者是超過兩天 他本身就要事先要有令狀齁 或者是要緊急的情況 所以現在的發生認為認為要補的是這種這個時間比較短的 然後也沒有延續性都比較短 比較輕微的這種"},{"start":131.237,"end":148.524,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":148.524,"end":178.524,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":178.524,"end":198.626,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":198.726,"end":201.79,"text":"才救濟這一部分的現實司法上面的承擔我們還必須去做斟酌所以我們才會請說那個委員們能夠斟酌也不是說沒有救濟將來他的證據有問題他還是會被排除他有被這些實施違法實施的這個公務人員警察他有責任他還是要去復起來"},{"start":219.569,"end":239.789,"text":"那時候也會去判斷是不是要在前階段這是一個政策政策決定那當然當然也請委員們大院能夠斟酌說我們司法的負擔政策決定也非常清楚那在第五項當中所授權的有關這個事項的辦法是由我們司法院這個會同行政院定制"},{"start":240.45,"end":255.396,"text":"那我想再就叫我們複密,相關的這個執法在過去一段時間研擬的情形為何?那目前這個草案是否已經擬定完成?那預計多久之後會嫌這個行政院的這個部分來做公告?"},{"start":256.206,"end":284.555,"text":"跟委員報告關於這個一百一五三之十第五項的這個執法我們已經有三次的這個諮詢會那麼草案剛才有跟另外一位委員報告跟大院報告說我們草案現在已經大致上面就緒那麼在很快的時間內做最後的這些核對可能就可以送到大院但是因為今天有委員提案民眾黨的提案是整個一五三之十都要刪除並到四一六所以這一點是我們比較憂心的"},{"start":285.475,"end":313.554,"text":"目前我們在研擬快要好的那個那個執法的這個授權根據會變成沒有那這個因為這部分在在有跟委員報告說各個國家都這個都非常重要這樣要怎麼做他跟一般的一般的處分是不同的很多的國家甚至在母法裡面就訂到非常非常詳細底下這一種這一種徵收所得到的東西要怎麼處分都訂在母法我們是至少要有一個這個這個授權命令給我們我們才能夠才能夠去做那但是速度我們絕對會盡快"},{"start":314.997,"end":334.472,"text":"所以還沒有公布的這個時間但是已經草案已經大致上就去還要經過行政院這一邊那當然我們今天看到了有不同的委員和黨團的這個提案版本對於這個修法的意見有別那就連這個法務部和司法院之間對於這個條文修正的意見"},{"start":335.273,"end":361.423,"text":"也未必完全有共識。我想這個重點還是在有效打擊這個詐欺的犯罪和保障民眾權利之間找到一個交集。那這部分我們也留待後續這個審查的時候在對於這個形式和內容來進行更詳細的這個探討。那複密您先請回。好那接著我想就叫我們這個法務部跟廉政署"},{"start":363.652,"end":379.75,"text":"近期內這個我們國防部有這個高階將官和情報人員各自外洩的事件那發生這種不該發生的事情不但引發社會嘩然那我想軍方也相當的懊惱從目前所有了解的"},{"start":382.097,"end":408.488,"text":"請醒來看是因為人為疏失那在公文程序上處理不當所造成的而國防部我們的部長昨天也在這個詢答的時候表示目前已經有這個法務部廉政署介入調查那我想請教署長那本案的這個行政調查就是由這個廉政署主責嗎那目前進度為何預計多久的時間能夠完成"},{"start":409.128,"end":438.808,"text":"是,謝謝委員崔詢。跟委員報告一下這件事情因為情治人員的這個安全部分是我想國人都非常重視所以一旦發生了這個事情之後第一個時間聯證署之事以後就已經有派人去國防部進行了解那相關的這個行政還有有沒有涉及到刑事的部分我們會儘速的調查那有關於行政責任的部分我們會儘速在近日內就可以去釐清然後就是說如果有這個責任的部分都會加以追究"},{"start":440.329,"end":462.027,"text":"好那後續的調查的這個行政處分的部分是交由國防部還是我們廉政署來追究我們目前上面的那個行政調查因為國防部他是請國防部政風室這邊在做然後我們的部分因為他有涉及到政風人員所以我們廉政署也有派我們的視察室去針對政風人員有沒有涉及到這個疏失的部分進行調查"},{"start":464.121,"end":493.1,"text":"好那由於這個本案齁這個機敏的資料外泄知識體大那除了檢討相關的這個疏失這個也要嚴嚴格的這個懲處啦齁那除了內部行政的調查要完整我想在法律上也需要採取必要的作為啦齁那就目前本案能夠透露的部分這個該案的承辦人員是否已經被這個移送法辦啦齁那並且承辦人員可能會面臨什麼樣的行政"},{"start":494.221,"end":505.488,"text":"是跟委員報告就是說這一個案件他我們在去了解的時候那事實上就是說因為我們的這個政風的同仁他們在"},{"start":506.344,"end":526.943,"text":"就是因為我們財產申報基本上是本機關只能知道本機關的一個相關的一個資料那這一件是因為今年度國防部他剛把就是說原本是屬於機敏單位的一個政風資料的這個業務由督察室移來政風室這邊來處理所以說我們的政風室同事在新接這個業務的時候跟"},{"start":528.404,"end":553.37,"text":" ﹝廢話﹞"},{"start":554.09,"end":570.797,"text":"請我們就是強加調查應該要一個一個比較明確的結果那這次的事件是這個政風單位在進行財產申報時所發生的然後那這邊想在追問這個規範上我們目前所定有的這個政風機構維護公務機密作業要點"},{"start":574.913,"end":595.093,"text":"但仍然發生這麼重大的疏失恐怕是對於這個機密文件在處理的這個流程所參照的原則未能完全落實所導致的那在國安部所發生這個問題在其他政風單位同樣也可能會發生類似的這個情形那我想請教次長"},{"start":596.514,"end":617.476,"text":"您認為應該要如何來精進規範以避免這個政風機密這個洩漏的情形再發生?顧問報告這當然涉及到若個案發生的話我們首先就要把這個個案查清楚如果事實是怎麼樣如果是有我們的政風人員有為事的話當然我們要透過究責的方式來避免未來再發生這是第一點"},{"start":618.217,"end":618.237,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":643.47,"end":665.374,"text":"那這一次的這個資安問題其實造成重大的這個國安危機的情況那是絕對不能再縱容那廉政署作為這個政風單位的指導機關務必確保類似的這個情勢不再發生不論是對於作業要點在進行檢討或是加強對同仁的這個宣導及教育的訓練讓各這個政風單位"},{"start":668.095,"end":694.933,"text":"甚至是所有接觸到機敏資料的單位都能夠引以為戒了那是不是也請我們這個法務部會同相關的資安單位對於這個政風業務持續的精進辦法這個部分有沒有辦法做一個比較這個簡單的說明跟委員報告我剛剛已經跟委員報告這部分法務部則無旁貸我們要求所屬的廉政署一定要落實剛剛委員所講的這一個個案的檢討跟法令方面的修正謝謝好"},{"start":697.496,"end":712.571,"text":"市長跟署長您先請問,我想請教我們那個警政署張署長。主席再給我一點時間。報告主席。好,署長,署長午安。"},{"start":713.786,"end":727.823,"text":"我想請教署長另外就是在前幾天這個宜蘭縣議會的這個網站疑似遭到這個病毒這個駭客的侵入那導致民眾在google這個宜蘭縣議會的這個關鍵字的時候網站卻是導"},{"start":732.268,"end":759.827,"text":"則引導股市的膠血連結很明顯這是投資的這個詐騙的網站那也讓鄉親痛批我們詐騙集團的這種做法太過於囂張了那據我了解議會在發現之後也立即報警那並且由這個刑事單位協助來偵辦我想這個案子所涉及的這個公共利益應該也有適度的這個公開說明的必要那我想請教我們署長對於這個依然縣議會網站被害的這一"},{"start":762.248,"end":770.237,"text":"這一個案子目前我們偵辦的情形為何那對於犯罪來源來自境內或境外是否已經掌握初步的這個目標"},{"start":773.513,"end":793.561,"text":"好那宜蘭縣議會的這個網站被被駭客就是侵占這一些的這個一夜市的一個詐欺的廣告那第一時間宜蘭縣就有跟我們宜蘭縣警察局來報案我們有立即馬上就去做處理"},{"start":794.681,"end":814.459,"text":"現在初步了解現在這個的網站是由駭客從境外駭客的一個狀況是境外的一個駭客那跟原先的google的這個原先的這個是沒有關係是駭客的一個狀況那我們目前這個案件應該整理相關的這個見證在追這一些這個"},{"start":818.923,"end":844.519,"text":"主要證實了這個身份由刑事局跟宜蘭縣警察局現在在報地點組指揮在戰犯當中好持續追蹤了是好那這個詐騙網站是在被民眾發現之後然後似乎在網路上存續一段時間那這部分我想了解的是在實務上我們政府的網站被冒用在即時因應上的這個作為"},{"start":846.308,"end":869.614,"text":"我們在和這個網路業者之間的這個通報上大概要需要多少的時間才能夠請他來下架這個詐騙的這個連結那我們現在對於這些的詐騙只要是是發現到是一個詐騙我們有這一些的管道有些是20小時以內就能夠下架了24小時對速度很快就會下架有沒有辦法更快"},{"start":872.995,"end":898.476,"text":"因為有一些網站你發現之後你通報之後他們那邊只要電腦系統去做操作對我們這個部會陸續在做跟因為這個主管機關是樹花部嘛那有一些的這些平行的這個溝通我們會來跟這些部會來溝通對於這些網路的這些的一個平台的業者能夠加快下架這些炸機的一個廣告好"},{"start":899.136,"end":913.028,"text":"那因為這一次的案子是政府的這個機關網站被害然後那也擔心是否會造成在公務上的這個資料外洩的情形包括議會工作的人員的個資或許或是存儲存於這個議會"},{"start":914.189,"end":914.269,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具"},{"start":939.673,"end":965.271,"text":"過九年的議員這是第一次聽到這個議會的網站被害而政府的這個機關的網站應該是提供便民的服務並且是值得民眾所信賴的要做到防範詐騙集團冒用政府機關相信也需要跨部會跨機關的合作我想再就教我們署長這部分是否有其他宣導規劃和精進措施的作為"},{"start":965.771,"end":984.167,"text":"好那這個部分就是說第一個就是自己的這個網站的治安的防禦的能力一定要在做做加強防禦這些駭客的入侵那第二部分就是說這一些如果有第一時間發現到這個有有駭入的這個狀況應該是這個公務的單位應該隨時每日有人要去做監看"},{"start":990.612,"end":990.652,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等"},{"start":1010.589,"end":1025.742,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":1025.762,"end":1054.263,"text":"好 那我還是請我們署長後續的這個溝通的平台架構好之後對於相關部會的我們這個部會內之間的協調那希望能夠有一個比較完善的一個處理方式一定會積極來幫你也避免我們這個民眾對於政府機關的這個網站的信賴會打折啦如果我們能夠把這個被害的情形做一個比較完善的處理相信未來這種事情應該會比較少再發生了"},{"start":1055.043,"end":1055.886,"text":"是的,會全力執行。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時52分）謝謝主席！我們有請司法院黃副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["陳委員俊宇：順道請我們法務部黃次長跟廉政署馮署長。"],["主席：請黃次長和馮署長。"],["陳委員俊宇：等一下如果有時間，最後面我會請教我們警政署的張署長，之後再請他上台。","謝謝主席！各位首長午安！我們今天就刑事訴訟法部分條文修正進行併案討論，特別是我們上會期所通過的特殊強制處分這個章節尚有討論的空間，在這裡我想就刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十的內容來就教於我們副秘書長。從司法院的書面報告來看，對於本條在立場上似乎是傾向維持現行版本，但是在提案當中也提到現行法只允許對法官、檢察官所為的科技偵查來做救濟，未能充分的保障受處分者，可能有違背有權利即有救濟的法理原則。請教副秘也請您說明，你認為我們現行制度在實務情形上不需再增訂的理由以及我們司法院對於司法資源分配上所產生的疑慮為何？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們在書面報告上也有寫，其實各個國家針對這種短期，如果說是比較長期的，像是超過24小時或是超過兩天的，本身就事先要有令狀或需有緊急的情況，所以現在認為要補的是這種時間比較短的，然後也沒有延續性、比較輕微的這種，那是不是要讓司法警察機關有獨立的準抗告權，這個是一個斟酌，因為牽涉到司法的量能。剛才有跟委員報告說其實他不是沒有救濟，今天假設他並沒有欠缺那個必要性而仍然去實施這個短期處分的時候，那麼將來在本案還要受刑事訴訟法第一百五十八條之四被證據排除，這些東西一樣會被審酌不能當成證據。今天假設在中間給它一個暫時的違法性宣告，依據其他國家的經驗，還是得到本案裡面去判斷這個到底是不是要做為證據，而且會有兩個程序的問題。第二個考慮就是司法的量能，如果讓警察機關在前階段就已經獨立的申請訴求救濟的時候，那麼負擔這些案件的量能跟我們到後階段才救濟這一部分的現實司法上面的承擔，我們還必須去做評估，所以我們才會請委員們能夠斟酌，也不是說沒有救濟，將來他的證據有問題的話還是會被排除，若這些違法實施的公務人員、警察有責任，他還是要去負起來，那時候也會去判斷是不是要在前階段，這是一個政策決定，當然也請大院委員們能夠斟酌我們司法的負擔。"],["陳委員俊宇：政策決定也非常清楚了，第五項授權有關這個事項的辦法由我們司法院會同行政院定之，我想就教我們副秘，相關的子法在過去一段時間的研擬情形為何？目前這個草案是否已經擬訂完成？預計多久之後會會銜行政院的部分來做公告？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，關於第一百五十三條之十第五項的子法，我們已經開過3次諮詢會，草案的部分剛才有跟另外一位委員也跟大院報告過，現在已經大致上就緒，在很快的時間內做最後的核對之後可能就可以送到大院，但是因為今天有委員提案民眾黨提案將整個第一百五十三條之十全部刪除，併到第四百十六條，這一點是我們比較憂心的，因為這樣一來目前我們已經快研擬好的子法會變成沒有授權根據，這部分也有跟委員報告過，在各個國家這個都非常重要，它跟一般的處分是不同的，很多國家甚至在母法裡面就定到非常非常詳細，底下這種徵收所得到的東西要怎麼處理都定在母法中，所以至少要給我們一個授權命令，我們才能夠去做，但是速度上我們絕對會儘快。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以還沒有公布的時間表？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是草案已經大致上就緒，因為還要經過行政院這一邊。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。當然我們今天看到有不同的委員和黨團的提案版本，對於這個修法的意見有別啦，就連法務部和司法院之間對於這個條文修正的意見也未必完全有共識，我想重點還是在有效打擊詐欺犯罪和保障民眾權利之間找到一個交集，這部分我們也留待後續審查的時候再對於刑事和內容來進行更詳細的探討，副秘先請回。","接著我想就教我們法務部跟廉政署，近期內發生我們國防部高階將官和情報人員個資外洩的事件，發生這種不該發生的事情，不但引致社會譁然，我想軍方也相當的懊惱。從目前所瞭解的情形來看，是因為人為疏失，在公文程序上處理不當所造成的，國防部部長昨天在詢答的時候也表示目前已經由法務部廉政署介入調查，我想請教署長，本案的行政調查就是由廉政署主責嗎？目前進度為何？預計多久時間能夠完成？"],["馮署長成：謝謝委員垂詢，跟委員報告一下，我想情資人員的安全部分國人都非常重視，所以一旦發生了這個事情，廉政署知悉以後，第一時間就已經有派人去國防部進行瞭解，相關的行政還有有沒有涉及到刑事的部分，我們會儘速的調查；有關於行政責任的部分，我們會儘速在近日內去釐清，如果有責任的部分都會加以追究。"],["陳委員俊宇：後續的調查和行政處分的部分是交由國防部還是我們廉政署來追究？"],["馮署長成：目前的行政調查，國防部是請國防部政風室這邊進行，因為有涉及到政風人員，所以我們廉政署這邊也有派我們的視察室去針對政風人員有沒有涉及到這個疏失的部分進行調查。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，由於本案涉及機敏資料外洩，茲事體大，除了檢討相關的疏失，也要嚴格的懲處，除了內部行政的調查要完整，我想在法律上也需要採取必要的作為。就目前本案能夠透露的部分，該案的承辦人員是否已經被移送法辦？承辦人員可能會面臨什麼樣的刑責？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，這個案件我們在去瞭解的時候，那事實上就是我們的政風同仁，因為我們的財產申報基本上是本機關，只能知道本機關的相關資料，那發生這件事是因為今年度國防部剛把原本屬於機敏單位的政風資料業務由督察室移來政風室處理，所以我們的政風室同事在新接這個業務的時候跟原來單位之間在聯繫上沒有那麼清楚，所以是不是機敏的保密部分做得沒有那麼詳細，我們會針對這部分去釐清。目前為止，跟委員報告，我們已經立案了，但是調查這個部分還沒有那麼快，所以人目前還沒有移送。"],["陳委員俊宇：請詳加調查，應該要有一個比較明確的結果。這次事件是政風單位在進行財產申報時發生的，這邊想再追問的是相關的規範，我們目前已訂有「政風機構維護公務機密作業要點」，卻仍然發生這麼重大的疏失，恐怕是對於機密文件處理流程參照原則未能完全落實所導致，在國防部發生的這個問題在其他政風單位同樣也可能會發生類似的情形，我想請教次長，您認為應該要如何來精進規範，以避免政風機密洩漏的情形再發生？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，個案發生的話，我們首先要把這個個案的事實是怎麼樣查清楚，如果是我們政風人員有違失的話，當然要透過究責的方式來避免未來再發生，這是第一點，是對過去事情的補救。對未來的部分，原來我們就存在相關的規範，是不是有漏洞導致這個個案發生這個情節，所以我們要去檢討現有的規範是不是存在著相關的漏洞，這部分法務部站在一個上位的立場，我們要求所屬的廉政署未來對法律的規範一定要做一個填補的動作。以上補充，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：這次的這個資安問題其實造成重大的國安危機，是絕對不能再縱容的，廉政署做為政風單位的指導機關，務必要確保類似的情事不再發生，不論是對於作業要點再進行檢討或是加強對同仁的宣導及教育訓練，讓各政風單位甚至是所有接觸到機敏資料的單位都能夠引以為戒，是不是也能請我們法務部會同相關的資安單位對於政風業務持續的精進，對這個部分，有沒有辦法做一個比較簡單的說明？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛已經跟委員報告，這部分法務部責無旁貸，我們會要求所屬的廉政署一定要落實剛剛委員所講的這個個案的檢討跟法令方面的修正。謝謝！"],["陳委員俊宇：好，次長跟署長先請回。我想請教我們警政署張署長，請主席再給我一點時間。"],["主席：請張署長。"],["陳委員俊宇：署長午安。我想請教署長，就在前幾天，宜蘭縣議會的網站疑似遭到病毒駭客侵入，導致民眾在google「宜蘭縣議會」關鍵字的時候，網站卻是導引到股市教學連結，很明顯這是投資的詐騙網站，讓鄉親痛批詐騙集團的這種作法太過囂張，據我瞭解，議會在發現之後也立即報警，並且由刑事單位協助偵辦。我想這個案子涉及到公共利益，應該有適度公開說明的必要。我想請教我們署長，對於宜蘭縣議會網站被駭這個案子，目前我們偵辦的情形為何？對於犯罪來源是來自境內或是境外，是否已經掌握初步的目標？"],["張署長榮興：委員好。宜蘭縣議會網站被駭客侵占為一頁式詐欺的廣告，宜蘭縣政府第一時間就有跟我們宜蘭縣警察局報案，我們也立即馬上就去做處理，現在初步的瞭解，這個網站是由駭客從境外駭入的狀況，是境外的一個駭客，跟原先的Google沒有關係，是駭客的一個狀況，目前這個案件應該是在整理相關的卷證，追查這些駭客主要真實的身分，現在由刑事局跟宜蘭縣警察局報地檢署指揮偵辦當中。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，持續追蹤啦！"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：這個詐騙網站在被民眾發現之後，似乎在網路上已經存續了一段時間，這部分我想瞭解的是實務上我們政府的網站被冒用在即時因應上的作為，我們在和網路業者之間的通報上，大概需要多少時間才能夠請他下架這個詐騙的連結？"],["張署長榮興：我們現在對於這些網站只要發現到是一個詐騙網站，我們有這些的管道，有些是24小時以內就能夠下架了。"],["陳委員俊宇：24小時？"],["張署長榮興：對，對，速度很快就會下架，現在因為……"],["陳委員俊宇：有沒有辦法更快？因為有一些網站在被發現通報之後，他們那邊只要電腦系統去做操作就可以了。"],["張署長榮興：對，我們這邊會陸續在做，因為這部分的主管機關是數發部，有一些平行溝通我們會來跟這些部會溝通，看看這些網路平台業者能否加快下架這些詐欺廣告。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為這一次的案子是政府的機關網站被駭，我們也擔心是否會因此造成公務資料外洩的情形，包括議會工作人員的個資或是儲存於議會資料檔案庫中的相關機敏資料，我想再請教署長，目前我們掌握的部分是否有發現這個部分的資料外洩的情形？"],["張署長榮興：我們現在初步的瞭解，它是公開的訊息，有關議會裡面機敏的或資安的部分沒有外洩的狀況。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒有外洩喔？"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為本席過去曾經在宜蘭擔任過9年的議員，這是第一次聽到議會網站被駭，而政府機關的網站應該是提供便民服務的，並且是值得民眾信賴的，要做到防範詐騙集團冒用政府機關，相信也需要跨部會、跨機關的合作，我想再就教我們署長，這部分是否有其他宣導規劃和精進措施的作為？"],["張署長榮興：在這個部分，第一個就是自己的網站的資安防禦能力一定要再加強，防範這些駭客的入侵。第二個就是如果第一時間發現到有駭入的狀況，公務單位應該隨時每日有人要去監看這些相關的訊息，如果發現這些訊息就馬上及時來做處置。第三個就是我們對於這些廣告業者一定也要有這些約束，他們自己要做管理，這個屬於是詐欺詐騙的行為，在我們打詐4法通過之後，對這些廣告平台業者，我們大概都有規範要做實名制廣告，未來這個部分會加強來做一個管理跟實施。"],["陳委員俊宇：我還是要請我們署長在後續的溝通平台架構好之後，對於相關部會之間的協調，希望能夠有一個比較完善的處理方式。"],["張署長榮興：是，一定會積極來辦理。"],["陳委員俊宇：這樣也可避免民眾對於政府機關網站的信賴打了折扣，如果我們能夠把被駭的情形做一個比較完善的處理，相信未來這種事情應該會比較少再發生了啦。"],["張署長榮興：是的，我們會全力來執行，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝署長。"],["主席：所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束；委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關提出送交個別委員及本會。","討論事項所列議案報告及詢答完畢，本案另定期繼續審查。","本次會議進行到此，現在散會。謝謝大家！","散會（12時10分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","陳俊宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員鍾佳濱等19人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1139001_00001"}}},{"id":"156125","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156125","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685ba14b0fdb04ff53be982770301154c67d5966be1ac5b6e0f9b7349d8067d4e87d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"12:03:21 - 12:08:15","影片長度":"00:04:54","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:03:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:08:15+08:00","duration":294,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.818468750000001,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.075343750000002,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.70284375,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.78284375,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.21721875,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.47909375,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.59159375,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.48971875000001,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.28471875000001,"end":106.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.85409375,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.96784375,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.06034375,"end":109.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.27971875,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.33034375000001,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.85534375,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.70971875,"end":142.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.26596875,"end":152.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.36221875,"end":149.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.34471875,"end":152.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.37846875,"end":153.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.44159375,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.26409375,"end":160.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.61346875,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.66409375,"end":161.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.11909375000002,"end":180.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.40346875,"end":182.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.45409375,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.46659375000002,"end":182.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.50034375,"end":182.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.55096875,"end":193.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.57034375,"end":193.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.60409375,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.46409375000002,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.15971875000002,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.12909375,"end":212.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.16221875000002,"end":214.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.96784375000001,"end":217.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.10659375,"end":222.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.52784375000002,"end":271.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.13034375,"end":228.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.36409375,"end":271.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.71846875,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.00534375,"end":284.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.93659375000004,"end":280.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.68721875,"end":283.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.20596875,"end":293.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.88471875,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.07846875,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.34409375,"end":291.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.26784375,"end":293.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.59,"text":"我美麗委員 。」"},{"start":20.714,"end":43.332,"text":"委員好副署長好副署長為了這個衝入國內的人力缺口我國做出了很多推出了很多這個留才攬才的政策那當然其中包含了延展僑外生留台工作那現行僑外生留台工作可以經過三個管道一個就是一般申請一般工作的許可那再來還有僑外生評點制跟這個"},{"start":44.973,"end":74.45,"text":"中介技術人力申請留才工作。」那像這三個管道其實它都有門檻有條件甚至有工作類別的這個限定那可是我們為了要擴大留才所以呢這些門檻條件其實我們有看到都是逐步在鬆綁當中那甚至呢我們勞動部呢要推出這個喬外森的個人工作許可那這個部分是很多喬外森所關心的大家都問說什麼時候我們準備來推出呢請問他的期程"},{"start":75.6,"end":95.012,"text":"是,謝謝委員的關心那有關橋外生的部分基本上我們也是逐次一直在鬆綁包括今年我們也把他這個人數的上限也刪除了就是希望透過這個相關的機制可以讓橋外生盡量留台那至於個人式工作許可呢是我們一個比較長的目標"},{"start":95.572,"end":97.113,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":125.173,"end":147.733,"text":"喬外申要申請個人工作許可,他有什麼需要什麼樣的一個資格、什麼樣的條件嗎?我們有設什麼樣的門檻嗎?好,大家都在問說到底我們這個個人工作許可的內容是什麼?跟委員報告,基本上個人是工作許可從他的本函,他當時候的意旨就是說他是不需要有一定雇主的"},{"start":148.188,"end":161.924,"text":"也就是說他是一個開放式的工作許可他不限業別也不限業別是他是open的所以所有的僑外生都可以申請個人工作許可的意思嗎是他只要是在臺畢業就業然後畢業"},{"start":165.228,"end":180.385,"text":"所以副署長您的意思就是說我們前面所提到的一般工作許可評點至中階基礎人力的這些申請的這些管道其實會退場的意思嗎?之後大家都可以用個人工作許可"},{"start":181.968,"end":206.786,"text":"這對僑外生的部分?報告委員基本上我們是多元管道留才所以我們的措施會盡量的大概是多元並行那個人式工作許可主要是否應屆畢業的否應屆畢業的所以是應屆畢業的才能夠申請個人工作許可這部分可以講得比較清楚一點嗎?報告委員因為我們有一些草案需要跟相關的機關團體還要再進一步的溝通"},{"start":209.248,"end":237.524,"text":"所以目前我們對於這些是不是還要進一步設限或者是有什麼的條件可能我們還需要再有一些討論那如果我們有進一步的規劃是不是容許我們再到委員辦公室跟您說明所以這個部分我們年底準備要來修舊服法可是還有很多細節還需要討論所以還不知道所以這就是喬外申的疑問因為到目前為止當然非常的開心說我們行政單位準備也來"},{"start":238.444,"end":255.053,"text":"推出這個人工作許可,可是又覺得說怎麼好像還沒有很清楚的說明因為大家都在期待嘛所以現在已經留在臺灣工作的這些橋外生已經有工作了其實已經不適用的意識所以只有針對這個"},{"start":257.155,"end":270.996,"text":"應屆的畢業生才適用。」目前看到的是這一點。反正它就是一個沒有門檻、沒有工作類別,我們就可以讓他們投入所有的工作職場的意思就是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":271.817,"end":276.081,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（12時3分）謝謝主席，有請勞發署黃齡玉副署長。"],["主席：請勞發署副署長。"],["黃副署長齡玉：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：副署長好，為了充裕國內的人力缺口，我國推出了很多留才、攬才的政策，其中包含延攬僑外生留台工作。現行僑外生留台工作可以經過三個管道，一個就是申請一般工作的許可，再來還有僑外生評點制和中階技術人力申請留台工作，這三個管道其實都有門檻、有條件，甚至有工作類別的限定。可是我們為了要擴大留才，所以這些門檻條件其實都在逐步鬆綁當中，甚至勞動部要推出僑外生的個人工作許可，這個部分是很多僑外生所關心的，大家都問我們什麼時候準備推出呢？請問它的期程？"],["黃副署長齡玉：是，謝謝委員的關心，有關僑外生的部分，基本上我們也是逐次一直在鬆綁，包括今年我們也把人數的上限刪除了，就是希望透過相關的機制，可以讓僑外生儘量留台。至於個人工作許可，是我們一個比較長的目標，我們最近正在研擬草案，希望在今年的年底，能夠提出僑外生個人工作許可的修法。"],["羅委員美玲：年底的時候可以推出來是不是？"],["黃副署長齡玉：是，我們預計要修正就業服務法。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，年底準備要來修就業服務法嗎？"],["黃副署長齡玉：是。"],["羅委員美玲：再來還有一點，我剛剛有提到現有的這三個管道，其實是有條件、有門檻、有工作類別的限定。我想請問一下，僑外生要申請個人工作許可，需要什麼樣的資格和條件嗎？我們有設什麼門檻嗎？大家都在問，到底這個個人工作許可的內容是什麼？"],["黃副署長齡玉：跟委員報告，個人工作許可當時的意旨就是不需要有一定雇主，也就是說它是一個開放式的工作許可，不限業別。"],["羅委員美玲：沒有一定的雇主，也不限業別？"],["黃副署長齡玉：是，它是open的。"],["羅委員美玲：所以所有的僑外生，都可以申請個人工作許可的意思嗎？"],["黃副署長齡玉：是，只要是在臺畢業、就業，然後……"],["羅委員美玲：所以副署長您的意思是說，前面提到的一般工作許可、評點制、中階技術人力這些申請管道，其實會退場的意思嗎？之後大家都可以用個人工作許可，針對僑外生的部分。"],["黃副署長齡玉：報告委員，基本上我們是多元管道留才，所以我們的措施會儘量多元並行，而個人工作許可主要是for應屆畢業的。"],["羅委員美玲：所以是應屆畢業的才能申請個人工作許可，這部分可以講得比較清楚一點嗎？"],["黃副署長齡玉：因為我們有一些草案需要跟相關的機關團體再進一步溝通，所以目前對於這些是不是還要進一步設限，或是有相關的條件，可能還需要再有一些討論。如果我們有進一步的規劃，是不是容許我們再到委員辦公室跟您說明？"],["羅委員美玲：OK，所以這個部分我們年底準備要來修就服法，可是還有很多細節需要討論還不知道，這就是僑外生的疑問。因為到目前為止，大家當然非常開心行政單位準備推出個人工作許可，可是又覺得怎麼好像還沒很清楚的說明，因為大家都在期待嘛！所以現在已經留在臺灣工作的這些僑外生，已經有工作了，其實已經不適用，只有針對應屆的畢業生才適用，目前看到的是這一點嘛！反正他就是一個沒有門檻，沒有工作類別，我們就可以讓他們投入所有的職場，意思是這樣子嗎？"],["黃副署長齡玉：委員，基本上，因為這個還是涉及工作，所以我們可能還是會邀國發會和相關的部會，進一步針對細節部分做一些討論，我們的目的其實都是為了留才。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，如果有比較清楚的內容跟方向的話，我希望勞發署可以到本席辦公室來做一個說明。"],["黃副署長齡玉：好的。"],["羅委員美玲：好，以上，謝謝。"],["黃副署長齡玉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝羅美玲委員，副署長請回座。","下一位質詢請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156124","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156124","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b86f15b26f58931afacf2ea2eceb6ef265966be1ac5b6e0f98b571ebbc9e398835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:59:28 - 12:06:40","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:59:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:06:40+08:00","duration":432,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.42721875,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.57784375,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.025343750000005,"end":36.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.05909375,"end":36.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.39659375,"end":36.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.48096875,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.38971875,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.072843750000004,"end":57.220343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.62096875,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.92034375,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.18909375,"end":74.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.84221875,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.15784375,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.05221875000001,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.98409375,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.69284375000001,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.75596875000001,"end":85.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.87409375,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.89096875,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.81471875000001,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.13846875,"end":96.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.33659375,"end":97.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.53471875000001,"end":98.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.56409375000001,"end":106.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.30159375000001,"end":104.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.14096875000001,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.67659375000001,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.71034375,"end":107.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.81159375,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.14909375,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.46971875000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.70971875000001,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.76034375,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.08034375000001,"end":117.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.32846875000001,"end":122.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.86409375000001,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.18471875,"end":123.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.84284375000001,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.14659375000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.61471875000001,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.65659375000001,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.12409375000001,"end":137.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.20784375,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.95034375,"end":139.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.21596875,"end":144.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.12659375,"end":155.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.41284375,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.28534375,"end":155.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.78721875000002,"end":156.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.07409375,"end":165.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.37221875,"end":167.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.80221875,"end":177.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.50096875,"end":178.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.26034375,"end":189.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.49909375000001,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.03909375,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":193.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.30034375000002,"end":193.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.78971875000002,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.04284375,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.32971875,"end":194.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.39721875,"end":194.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.41409375,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.46471875,"end":194.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.48159375,"end":195.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.00471875000002,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.03846875000002,"end":195.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.20721875,"end":195.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.34221875,"end":199.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.53971875000002,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.95721875,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.04471875000002,"end":210.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.37784375,"end":210.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.88409375,"end":210.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.54221875000002,"end":212.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.82471875000002,"end":214.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.63034375,"end":214.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.74846875,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.22221875000002,"end":235.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.35284375,"end":241.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.53846875000002,"end":235.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.93409375000002,"end":244.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.30909375000002,"end":260.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.12721875000003,"end":248.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.34221875000003,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.37846875,"end":264.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.00221875,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.97971875,"end":275.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.46471875000003,"end":281.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.18534375,"end":281.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.16409375,"end":285.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.80909375000005,"end":287.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.12096875000003,"end":288.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.28534375000004,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.98534375,"end":294.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.00596875,"end":297.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.90346875,"end":306.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.38784375,"end":310.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.61534375,"end":310.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.82159375000003,"end":318.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.63096875,"end":320.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.31846875,"end":329.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.07221875000005,"end":333.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.45971875000004,"end":334.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.65784375000004,"end":336.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.21034375000005,"end":339.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.79221875,"end":344.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.25971875000005,"end":347.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.43659375000004,"end":353.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.39721875000004,"end":359.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.38409375000003,"end":364.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.81784375,"end":369.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.09971875,"end":372.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.83346875,"end":377.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.35596875000005,"end":387.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.68346875000003,"end":400.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.33971875000003,"end":403.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.15784375000004,"end":425.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.09971875,"end":424.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.53409375,"end":430.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.54596875000004,"end":431.81159375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.43,"end":7.224,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝部長,不好意思我很快,直接部長台上啦那我就直接跟部長請教今天有關於無人機的議題,請秀簡報"},{"start":10.606,"end":33.355,"text":"好部長 那麼我們軍工產業自主需要有完備的供應鏈那產線的建立很重要一點就是取決訂單的市場規模我先用以離岸風機來看離岸風機啊 你看2021我們水壓機組跟塔架2023有包括機艙跟變壓器包括海事工程船到第三階段我們就有齒輪箱等等等這是逐步的你認為這個是國產化的必經過程同意嗎"},{"start":36.096,"end":56.826,"text":"是好那接下來我們看國機國造跟國艦國造一樣國機國造我們永英高加機66架包括電氣啦飛控啦發電啦航電啦這逐步要去移轉到國內那麼國艦國造部分呢比較難的是潛艦載台我們自己做那戰鬥管理系統跟壓力殼等等這些我們都試圖的要由本國廠商來生產請問這是不是我們的目標"},{"start":58.666,"end":60.007,"text":"最近我們要進M1A2坦克,我們有辦法自己造一輛M1A2嗎?"},{"start":84.739,"end":107.313,"text":"很困難嘛但是我們看到一個新聞外國網友看到要賣給我們的M1A2居然在國外美國有一個柯博文什麼是柯博文變形金剛它是一個拖板車有沒有看過這個拖板車你認為我們本國有沒有能力因為戰車60噸的戰車主力戰車它需要一定能量的拖板車這個國內有產製能力嗎目前沒有沒有能力研發嗎"},{"start":111.772,"end":136.323,"text":"有沒有能力言嗎?報告委員目前這個拖運的拖板車我們要進口嗎?我們國家的低板的我們民間的低板車包含它在改正速度還是有的低板車對,低板的可以嗎?民間現在就有現在就有,能夠承載M1A2可以承載M1A2戰車,是的所以目前我們只需要跟美國買戰車不需要跟它連拖板車一起建我們有在這次的向量裡面採購拖板車跟拖戰車國產的?美國的"},{"start":139.384,"end":153.777,"text":"那我們美國的買了我們國產的以後是不是接續由國產的來接體我是說我們國內自己的民間的運輸公司有這樣的能量所以我們不見得需要再自行來生產我們可以跟他做這個"},{"start":158.421,"end":176.898,"text":"為什麼會這樣子?因為拖板車它除了軍需用途,平常也可以使用。美國的M911拖車,平常他們就用來拖伐木,台灣當然沒有伐木業。我要說的就是說,我們的軍需產業,除了主要的武器裝備之外,其他的周邊配備也是一個我們軍需產業力當中一個重要部門,您同意嗎?"},{"start":178.527,"end":181.93,"text":"無人機目前你認為我國全部要自製最困難的是哪個部分無人機"},{"start":202.738,"end":210.588,"text":"我想因為主要是中國他現在站在全球的這一個市佔率很高對大疆他是有量化他是"},{"start":212.865,"end":233.399,"text":"主要是便宜不是技術難度真的無人機不是高技術難度它只是量產後它的成本最低而無人機是需要大量生產才有優勢的但是其中一個光電頭目前是台灣不是沒有能力研發是因為我們訂單太少國內廠商他覺得做這個不划算你們乾脆外國自己買請問你所瞭解是不是這樣子"},{"start":234.999,"end":244.334,"text":"是沒有做嗎?這個現在都是由我們自己來做組裝。那光念求我們國內有辦法自治嗎?沒有辦法全部自治。有沒有能力自治?"},{"start":245.353,"end":264.152,"text":"我今天早上有答過類似的問題一年之內我們可以克服是的我現在要說的說不是技術門檻達不到是量產規模不具備我們台灣的廠商很厲害你叫他做樣品給你沒有問題但你叫他生產呢對不起他要做500萬你外面買50萬請問你要跟外面買還是要自己做"},{"start":265.086,"end":287.318,"text":"就是這個問題,所以我們的軍需產業要自治呢,其實不是只有考量技術門檻,不是技術門檻達不到,而是市場規模達不到,往下看。以這個舉例,Gogoro,難道這些東西,進口的電路板,控制器,馬達,台灣不能做嗎?可以。那為什麼Gogoro這個電動車,我們交通部發現問題,要它百分之百國產,它還屬於中國買這些零配件?"},{"start":289.352,"end":289.552,"text":"這是電動三輪車"},{"start":313.871,"end":333.819,"text":"其實在展現的就是說我們的軍需配備不是只有武器本體它的載台它的配件其實都是考量在內像這種這樣的一個設備它具備有暫時的二列天后的運載能力也具有平時的都會裡面的商運能力這樣的一個設計台灣能不能做到部長你覺得台灣有沒有能力做出來下一頁"},{"start":337.264,"end":353.787,"text":"你認為這樣的電動三輪車我在暗示什麼未來的無人機不是步兵背著無人機上戰場啊他的後勤移動裝備維修充電都需要這樣的一個後勤補給車部長你覺得這樣的一個類似無人機的裝載後勤補給車台灣有沒有能力製作"},{"start":357.138,"end":370.834,"text":"這個我想再需要進一步了解一下很好那我希望部長的結論就是說軍工產要自主有賴國產廠商投入除了巨數門檻之外市場規模是影響建立產線的重要原因無人機的國產化應該藉由訂單規模"},{"start":372.896,"end":383.786,"text":"同步帶動周邊設備進入於本土產能．請國防部在3個月內提出一個評估報告．列出以無人機自主化國產化來列明潛力裝備的商品．並且建立產線的市場規模．部長可以嗎"},{"start":387.714,"end":409.442,"text":"是我想產業的市場規模在無人機的部分的話我們之前一直有在提到就是希望打入國際的供應鏈是的因為這樣子的話才能夠產有一定的經濟規模效益而且要提前部長不是只有無人機本體整個無人機在戰場上的應用它的周邊的配備也要一併考慮就像你不會只考慮M1A2坦克一樣你會考慮什麼"},{"start":411.383,"end":411.503,"text":"謝謝副部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時59分）謝謝主席，謝謝部長，不好意思，本席很快的質詢。因為部長已經在台上，本席就直接向部長請教今天有關無人機的議題。部長，我們軍工產業自主需要有完備的供應鏈，產線建立有一點很重要，就是取決訂單的市場規模，本席先以離岸風機來看，2021年有水壓機組和塔架，2023年有機艙和變壓器，包括海事工程船，到第三階段，我們就有齒輪箱等等，這部分是逐步發展，您也認為這是國產化的必經過程。同意嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，接下來我們看國機國造和國艦國造。一樣，國機國造的部分，勇鷹高教機66架，包括電器、飛控、發電、航電，都要逐步移轉到國內。國艦國造的部分，比較難的是潛艦載台，這部分我們自己做，戰鬥管理系統和壓力殼等等，這些我們都試圖要由本國廠商生產。請問這是不是我們的目標？"],["顧部長立雄：您說戰鬥管理系統和……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是。本席是說除了載台之外，我們也希望其他部分有能力生產，包括壓力殼等等。這是我們的目標嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在當然是希望這樣，因應國防自主，各方面的自製率都能夠提升。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。好，那我們來看一下，最近我們要進口M1A2坦克，是不是這樣？我們有辦法自己造一輛M1A2戰車嗎？很困難嘛！但是呢？我們有看到一則新聞，外國網友看到要賣給我們的M1A2戰車，在美國是由「柯博文」搭載。什麼是「柯博文」？就是變形金剛，它是一個拖板車，有沒有看過？你認為我們有沒有能力做這個拖板車？因為60噸的主力戰車需要一定能量的拖板車，這個部分國內有產製能力嗎？"],["李院長世強：沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有能力研發嗎？有沒有能力研發？"],["陳參謀長建義：目前這個拖運的拖板車……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們也要進口嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：現在我們民間的低板車……現在就有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：載重、速度可以嗎？現在就有？能夠承載M1A2戰車嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：可以承載M1A2戰車，是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前我們只需要向美國買戰車，不需要連拖板車一起進口？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們有在這次的項量裡面採購拖板車和拖車……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國產的？"],["陳參謀長建義：美國的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：先買美國的東西，以後是不是由國產的接替？"],["陳參謀長建義：我是說國內的民間運輸公司有這樣的能量，所以我們不見得需要自行生產，我們可以向他們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：租用？"],["陳參謀長建義：對，是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。部長，為什麼會這樣？因為拖板車除了軍需用途，平常也可以使用。美國的M911拖車，平常他們就用來拖木頭，臺灣當然沒有伐木業啦！本席要說的是，我們的軍需產業除了主要的武器裝備之外，其他的周邊配備，也是我們軍需產業鏈當中一個重要部門，您同意嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們往下看。無人機，我們說百分之百自製嘛！對不對？不是百分之百自製，是百分之百禁止中國製品，防堵紅色供應鏈，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：我們當然希望能夠這樣，也要求這樣做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為目前我國要自製無人機，最困難的是哪個部分？"],["顧部長立雄：主要是中國現在在全球的市占率很高，它也便宜。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，大疆有量化，而且主要是便宜，不是技術難度。真的，無人機不是高技術難度，只是量產後他們的成本最低，而無人機需要大量生產才有優勢。其中的光電球，目前臺灣不是沒有能力研發，是因為我們的訂單太少，國內廠商覺得做這個不划算，所以乾脆向外國買。請問你了解的是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯嘛？"],["李院長世強：這個現在都是我們自己組裝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國內有辦法自製光電球嗎？"],["李院長世強：沒有辦法全部自製。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有能力自製？"],["李院長世強：我今天早上有答詢過類似的問題，一年之內我們可以克服。我們現在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。本席現在要說的是，不是技術門檻達不到，是量產規模不具備。臺灣的廠商很厲害，你叫他們做個樣品給你，沒有問題，但你叫他們生產呢？對不起，他們做要500萬元，你們到外面買是50萬元，請問你要到外面買，還是要自己做？就是這個問題。所以我們的軍需產業要自製，其實不是只考量技術門檻，因為不是技術門檻達不到，而是市場規模達不到。","以Gogoro舉例，難道這些進口的電路板、控制器、馬達，臺灣不能做嗎？可以，那為什麼Gogoro的電動車在交通部發現問題之後，要他們百分之百國產，但他們還是去中國買這些零配件？因為便宜嘛！性價比嘛！部長，這樣了解嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們現在說最後的結論。你看一下，這是很簡單的兩則影片，您猜猜看這是什麼，這是電動三輪車。"],["顧部長立雄：一種電動的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實這部分要展現的，就是我們的軍需配備不是只有武器本體，它的載台、配件都要考量在內。像這樣的設備，它具備在戰時惡劣天候的運載能力，也具有平時在都會地區的商運能力，這樣的設計，臺灣能不能做到？部長，你覺得臺灣有沒有能力做這樣的電動三輪車？你認為本席在暗示什麼？未來不是由步兵背著無人機上戰場，它的後勤移動、裝備維修、充電都需要這樣的後勤補給車，部長，你覺得這樣類似無人機的裝載後勤補給車，臺灣有沒有能力製作？"],["顧部長立雄：這個需要進一步了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。本席希望部長做什麼呢？結論就是軍工產業要自主，有賴國產廠商投入，除了技術門檻之外，市場規模是影響建立產線的重要原因。無人機的國產化應該藉由訂單規模，同步帶動周邊設備建立本土產能，請國防部在3個月內提出一份評估報告，以無人機自主化、國產化列明潛力裝備的商品，並且建立產線的市場規模。部長，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。我想產業的市場規模，在無人機的部分，我們之前一直有提到，就是希望打入國際的供應鏈，因為這樣才能夠有一定的經濟規模效益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。而且要提醒部長，不是只有無人機本體，整個無人機在戰場上的應用，包括周邊配備，也要一併考慮，就像你不會只考慮M1A2坦克一樣，你還會考慮什麼？包括它的拖板車，因為平常移訓、移防要使用，戰時讓它自己到達戰場，但是平時不需要消耗珍貴的履帶壽命。所以本席建議，無人機的部分要考量到它的周邊配備，好不好？謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。請國防部3個月提出評估報告給鍾佳濱委員，謝謝部長。先休息5分鐘。","休息（12時6分）","繼續開會（12時13分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會，下午是由副部長徐衍璞代理備詢。接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},{"id":"156123","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156123","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bd3989ddc15d481bb982770301154c67d5966be1ac5b6e0f970d53a0d6a0ba6b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:57:36 - 12:03:17","影片長度":"00:05:41","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:57:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:03:17+08:00","duration":341,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.047218750000001,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.36721875,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.188468750000002,"end":30.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.91221875,"end":35.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.721593750000004,"end":38.860343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.23159375,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.134093750000005,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.27221875,"end":49.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.588468750000004,"end":61.101593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.64721875,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.15284375,"end":57.625343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.24534375,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.101593750000006,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.30409375000001,"end":80.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.49721875,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.81346875,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.95971875000001,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.37159375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.31096875,"end":118.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.51034375,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.05784375,"end":133.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.86659375000002,"end":147.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.18096875,"end":154.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.99409375000002,"end":164.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.13596875000002,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.73471875,"end":170.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.12659375,"end":184.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.94721875000002,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.56221875,"end":221.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.84909375,"end":191.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.00471875000002,"end":235.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.06159375000001,"end":244.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.20784375000002,"end":248.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.25784375,"end":281.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.57346875000002,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.79971875,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.84346875,"end":285.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.85971875,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.50471875,"end":309.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.70659375,"end":293.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.73034375000003,"end":305.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.96159375,"end":315.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.80534375,"end":310.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.06596875,"end":321.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.50409375000004,"end":327.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":334.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.09346875,"end":329.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.73471875,"end":330.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.43034375,"end":339.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.82659375000003,"end":336.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.73346875000004,"end":340.16346875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.296,"end":11.168,"text":"謝謝主席我們請國科會主委還有教育部張料次長請國發會劉主委教育部張料次長"},{"start":16.361,"end":34.875,"text":"內委員好是,處長我想就是從剛才幾位委員的一個質詢內容裡頭我們來聽這個台灣的生育率會不會越來越少還是有可能緩談回升顯然你給的這個答案是非常的一個精準就是說"},{"start":35.796,"end":47.374,"text":"你認為就是不可逆會越來越少那還有在這個207年年你甚至就是說大膽臆測我們的人口數只會剩下1500萬是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":51.003,"end":70.363,"text":"不是這樣的意思我們其實現在用現在的狀況來推估2070年如果我們不去改善的話會持續的惡化那我們現在希望兩部曲第一部先能夠守住現在的出生的狀態然後下一部才來看怎麼提升"},{"start":71.284,"end":79.991,"text":"大概我們朝這兩個方向來走能守住其實以國際趨勢來看的話其實幾乎我們看全球趨勢每個國家都是會到下滑的現象從少子化就是這個子女對策的一個計畫裡頭我們已經是從107年到114年就等於是說小英總統在105年就職的第二年他就開始就是說已經知道了這個少子少子女這個"},{"start":99.366,"end":123.691,"text":"這個計畫的一個對策的計畫一直在提出來了顯然我們還是擋不住顯然還是擋不住所以是不是有比較好的當然就是說你的報告裡頭你也講到了這個是其實是一個多元面向的一個問題你必須要就是跨部會的來解決那當然少子化的一個衝擊我覺得整個因應的方式我們要想得更廣"},{"start":125.191,"end":152.407,"text":"所以我在這裡就是部長那個指委你請回我就針對的教育的問題跟次長來做一個探討少子化的衝擊這個其實我想從這個教育的一個面向來跟次長做一個探討就是113年學年度就是即將停招的國小他有18所那這個是教育史上最多的分布在七個縣市其中以台南、南投、屏東"},{"start":153.207,"end":166.996,"text":"澎湖是重災區,臺南更是重中之重,臺南有即將停辦四個國小的分校,其中這四所分校有兩所分校,其實就在本席的選區裡,在這裡要請教次長,就是說"},{"start":171.638,"end":191.232,"text":"現在台南市政府教育局他已經去尋求跨校的一個合作所謂跨校的合作當然次長你非常的清楚就是主辦的學校跟就是跨校的一個學校這個已經實施了四年了可是還是不可逆你看還是關掉了這麼多的一個分校"},{"start":191.932,"end":221.192,"text":"那事實上就是說有什麼樣的一個互補的一個資源互補的一個資源可以去因應少子化的一個資源有限帶來的一個挑戰讓我們學生可以獲得更好的一個品質在少子化的一個衝擊裡頭我再特別的跟次長做一個探討你看在第8條裡頭他說學校應該是在每年的4月15號一估學生的學年度然後"},{"start":223.353,"end":244.35,"text":"可以辦理下列的一個招生那我現在就是合併學校的就是臺南市教育局他就說30人以下的那個學校他就是必須要跨校了那我們看到了就是這些併校或是會校教育部是不是可以提供你們有什麼相對的因應的措施"},{"start":245.25,"end":263.84,"text":"我想我們因為高中以下大概包括國中小這些他如果要停辦他會有一個規定有一個準則去年大概有修了那這個地方應該也都是經過專案的評估有一些公聽會然後教審會這個程序他才會去合併或者是停辦"},{"start":264.881,"end":280.893,"text":"那我們當然了解地方有所基於財政的考慮跟整個學校少子化的一個現象但是我們也都會提醒他們就是說如果像偏鄉地區我們中央有一些特別的政策或者是那個辦法能夠提供補助比如說"},{"start":281.914,"end":297.888,"text":"如果是真的廢校了他還是會有一些學生我們會提供學生交通或住宿的相關的一些市長我想就是說我們快速因為時間有限不管是就近入學還是區域入學還是自由入學"},{"start":298.749,"end":314.848,"text":"其實本席在這裡就是說要特別提出來就是一個實驗學校你把它整合起來就是一個實驗的學校不然我們實在不敢想像就是說所以委員講得很好實驗教育這部分我們其實會考就是說它廢校之後它其實可以再"},{"start":316.387,"end":320.409,"text":"讓一些有民間想要辦實驗教育,他可以來互辦。」"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（11時57分）謝謝主席，請國科會主委及教育部張廖次長。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委、教育部張廖次長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：賴委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：從剛才幾位委員的質詢內容，臺灣的生育率會不會越來越少，還是有可能反彈回升？顯然你給的答案非常的精準，你認為就是不可逆、會越來越少，甚至你大膽預測2070年我們的人口數只會剩下1,500萬，是這樣子嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是這樣的意思，其實我們是用現在的狀況來推估2070年，如果我們不去改善的話會持續惡化，我們現在希望兩部曲，第一步先能夠守住現在出生的狀態，然後下一步才來看怎麼提升，大概我們朝這兩個方向來走。其實以國際情勢來看的話，我們看全球趨勢幾乎每個國家都是下滑的現象。"],["賴委員惠員：針對少子女化對策計畫，我們已經從107年推動到114年，等於是小英總統在105年就職的第二年就已經提出少子女對策計畫，顯然我們還是擋不住，所以是不是有比較好的做法？當然在你的報告裡頭你也講到這其實是一個多元面向的問題，必須要跨部會來解決，針對少子化的衝擊，我覺得整個因應的方式我們要想得更遠、更廣。主委先請回，我想針對教育的問題來跟次長做一個探討，有關少子化的衝擊，我想從教育的面向來跟次長探討，113學年度即將停招的國小有18所，是教育史上最多的，分布在7個縣市，其中以臺南、南投、屏東、澎湖是重災區，臺南更是重中之重。臺南即將停辦4間國小的分校，其中有2所就在本席的選區裡。在這裡要請教次長，現在臺南市政府教育局已經去尋求跨校合作，所謂跨校的合作，當然次長非常清楚，就是主辦學校跟跨校的學校，這個已經實施4年了，可是還是不可逆，還是關了這麼多的分校。","有什麼互補的資源，可以因應少子化的資源有限帶來的挑戰，讓我們學生可以獲得更好的品質？在少子化衝擊裡，次長看第八條，學校應該在每年的4月15日預估新學年度的學生數，然後辦理招生事宜。現在臺南市教育局說30人以下的學校必須要跨校，我們看到這些併校或廢校，教育部能否提供什麼相對應的措施？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想高中以下包括國中小學校如果要停辦，他會有一個規定和準則，去年大概有修了，地方應該也都是經過專案評估，有一些公聽會、教審會的程序才會去合併或停辦。我們當然瞭解地方有時候基於財政的考慮，跟整個學校少子化的現象，但是我們也都會提醒他們，如果是偏鄉地區，中央有一些特別的政策或辦法能夠提供補助，譬如如果真的廢校了，但還是會有一些學生，我們會提供學生交通或住宿相關的一些補助，或生活課業的輔導。"],["賴委員惠員：好，次長，我們快速，因為時間有限，不管是就近入學、區域入學，還是自由入學，其實本席在這裡要特別提出來的是實驗學校，你把它整合起來，就是一個實驗的學校，不然我們實在不敢想像在未來……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員講得很好，實驗教育這個部分我們會考慮，就是廢校之後，其實可以再讓民間一些想要辦實驗教育的可以來復辦。"],["賴委員惠員：那是不是應該更大區域、更大規模的一個實驗學校……"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然，實驗教育就沒有學區的限制。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有問題，你如果需要這個資料，我們其實最近也在討論用這種方式。"],["賴委員惠員：好，把這些計畫提供給本席，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝你的關心。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴惠員委員，次長請回座。","下一位質詢請羅美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156122","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156122","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685babb1f736298c2f871a854d634de4a24c5966be1ac5b6e0f93ff16b6b2a727ff65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:47:31 - 12:02:43","影片長度":"00:15:12","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:47:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:02:43+08:00","duration":912,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":1.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2.71409375,"end":3.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3.79409375,"end":4.705343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5.498468750000001,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.337843750000001,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9.059093750000002,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12.113468750000003,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.429718750000003,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13.615343750000001,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14.47596875,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.68221875,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23.01471875,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24.36471875,"end":27.250343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":27.48659375,"end":31.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":32.228468750000005,"end":39.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.48534375,"end":35.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":39.26534375,"end":39.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":40.17659375,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":46.48784375,"end":46.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":47.14596875,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":51.22971875,"end":62.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.46846875000001,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":64.39221875,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":69.11721875,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":73.18409375,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":79.00596875000001,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":83.17409375000001,"end":84.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":84.94596875,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":91.05471875,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":93.48471875,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":95.96534375,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":97.06221875,"end":99.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":99.82971875000001,"end":100.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":101.06159375,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":104.53784375000001,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":106.15784375000001,"end":110.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":112.57034375,"end":113.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.78534375000001,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.73846875000001,"end":117.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.03784375000001,"end":126.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":125.44596875,"end":132.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.43221875,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":132.60096875000002,"end":133.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":133.52909375000002,"end":175.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.60284375,"end":147.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":175.95284375,"end":177.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.53909375,"end":183.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.61409375000002,"end":187.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.78221875,"end":194.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":191.64659375000002,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.37159375000002,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":201.82221875000002,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":204.92721875,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.85534375,"end":206.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":213.56721875000002,"end":214.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":214.61346875,"end":220.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.19971875000002,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":221.49846875,"end":224.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.77221875,"end":227.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.38784375,"end":233.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":229.56471875000003,"end":229.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.90221875,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.49659375000002,"end":235.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.06159375000001,"end":239.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.35221875000002,"end":242.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.08596875,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":244.97159375,"end":245.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":246.37221875,"end":246.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.38471875000002,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":247.55346875,"end":247.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":252.98721875,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.07159375,"end":253.12221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.56346875,"end":265.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.62659375000004,"end":265.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.27159375,"end":269.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":270.77346875,"end":272.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.76471875000004,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.35471875,"end":281.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":280.72971875,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.94034375,"end":287.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":285.16784375000003,"end":295.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.78221875,"end":295.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":295.79909375,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.81596875,"end":296.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.16159375,"end":323.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":304.08471875000004,"end":304.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":308.18534375,"end":311.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":316.23471875,"end":318.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":323.03534375000004,"end":332.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.10221875,"end":327.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.59159375,"end":327.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.50284375,"end":328.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":333.58221875000004,"end":347.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.65659375,"end":344.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.89221875000004,"end":355.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":354.99659375000005,"end":368.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.13784375,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":372.64784375000005,"end":372.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":381.38909375000003,"end":390.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":390.72096875,"end":393.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.26909375,"end":400.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":399.66471875,"end":418.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.30721875,"end":420.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.09596875000005,"end":421.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.46721875000003,"end":424.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":423.76221875000005,"end":425.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.87159375000005,"end":427.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.67721875,"end":431.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":431.40659375,"end":435.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.64221875000004,"end":435.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":435.94596875,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.96284375000005,"end":436.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":436.16534375000003,"end":436.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.57034375,"end":436.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":436.97534375000004,"end":436.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":437.14409375,"end":442.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":442.30784375,"end":447.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":442.54409375,"end":442.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":447.70784375000005,"end":454.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":450.07034375,"end":450.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":453.90096875,"end":465.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.71721875000003,"end":471.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.94034375,"end":479.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":479.09534375000004,"end":488.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.72784375000003,"end":482.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":488.79846875000004,"end":493.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":494.56971875000005,"end":497.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":497.67471875,"end":499.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":499.64909375,"end":506.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.31034375,"end":508.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":507.56346875,"end":508.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":508.81221875000006,"end":509.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.35221875,"end":509.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.02721875000003,"end":510.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.22534375000004,"end":511.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.17034375,"end":514.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":568.98846875,"end":570.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":571.65471875,"end":572.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":572.78534375,"end":573.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":575.0634687500001,"end":576.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":577.1728437500001,"end":578.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":578.5734687500001,"end":578.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":578.69159375,"end":587.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":587.5847187500001,"end":588.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":588.7322187500001,"end":591.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":591.75284375,"end":594.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":594.7565937500001,"end":603.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.7434687500001,"end":598.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":604.12221875,"end":612.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":614.4328437500001,"end":616.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":616.7278437500001,"end":620.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":620.2209687500001,"end":624.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":621.3347187500001,"end":622.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":624.9965937500001,"end":628.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":628.5065937500001,"end":630.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":630.43034375,"end":632.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":632.65784375,"end":638.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":638.32784375,"end":638.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.86784375,"end":643.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":643.2722187500001,"end":649.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":648.0984687499999,"end":648.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.85346875,"end":655.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":655.42221875,"end":658.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":657.43034375,"end":659.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":658.98284375,"end":663.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":660.24846875,"end":660.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":663.2522187500001,"end":664.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":664.02846875,"end":664.6865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":664.83846875,"end":665.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":664.9565937500001,"end":665.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":665.9522187500002,"end":666.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":666.52596875,"end":670.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":669.4453437500001,"end":671.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":671.5209687500001,"end":676.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":675.7734687500001,"end":680.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":678.5915937500001,"end":679.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":681.34221875,"end":682.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":681.59534375,"end":682.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":683.29971875,"end":685.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":683.3503437500001,"end":686.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":686.65784375,"end":689.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":690.1003437500001,"end":691.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":691.6697187500001,"end":692.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":692.73284375,"end":700.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":696.10784375,"end":696.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":697.6940937500001,"end":698.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":699.31409375,"end":705.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":700.9172187500001,"end":701.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":705.77721875,"end":706.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":706.2665937500001,"end":710.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":706.9922187500001,"end":707.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":708.9497187500001,"end":714.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":716.07096875,"end":717.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":716.2397187500001,"end":719.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":720.00284375,"end":723.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":723.37784375,"end":726.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":727.3940937500001,"end":743.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":741.24846875,"end":752.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":751.33971875,"end":753.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":752.87534375,"end":759.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.8115937500002,"end":756.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":759.9965937500001,"end":764.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":764.46846875,"end":765.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":765.3797187499999,"end":767.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":767.97846875,"end":770.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":770.9822187500001,"end":771.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":771.91034375,"end":772.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":773.0578437500001,"end":776.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":773.0915937500001,"end":774.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":776.0278437500001,"end":777.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":777.25971875,"end":779.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":777.36096875,"end":777.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":779.21721875,"end":782.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":782.40659375,"end":787.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":785.2078437499999,"end":792.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":793.6115937500001,"end":797.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":795.5859687500001,"end":801.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":801.3403437500001,"end":803.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":802.5890937500001,"end":804.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":804.0065937500001,"end":805.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":805.2553437500001,"end":806.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":807.1115937500001,"end":807.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":807.9384687500001,"end":810.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":811.1784687500001,"end":812.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":812.81534375,"end":814.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":815.02596875,"end":815.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":816.6628437500001,"end":819.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":820.37534375,"end":822.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":822.61971875,"end":834.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":834.2634687500001,"end":836.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":836.84534375,"end":841.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":842.1440937500001,"end":844.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.26596875,"end":847.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":847.54409375,"end":849.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":849.5690937500001,"end":861.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":861.7022187500002,"end":865.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":865.66784375,"end":888.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":888.7022187500002,"end":896.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":896.48159375,"end":898.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":898.62471875,"end":902.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.65784375,"end":906.35346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.17,"end":16.827,"text":"委員好主委好你們今晚會我看您的這個決心不錯也有一點行動力那現在我看有如火如荼要做到兩年有感然後讓臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心這個"},{"start":18.828,"end":45.796,"text":"這個計畫已經講了幾十年的計畫好像感覺有一點機會不過我感覺可能在這個你面臨最大的挑戰我看我們立委部分聽很多立委的這個質詢我們立委是這樣對法令的鬆綁還有這個政策方面我們都是相當支持的但是我感覺你一個人剛剛看我看賴委員在質詢的時候你這個有問題的話後面的這個下面的相關單位沒有上來協助提供資料我覺得這個你"},{"start":47.256,"end":60.893,"text":"面臨最大的挑戰可能不是來自於我們這些外部不是我們這是賴總統的政策這沒有問題我看比較大的挑戰可能是你的先進的頭腦要幫忙你這個相關的我們這個官僚體系要打開頭腦這個要open"},{"start":62.495,"end":62.635,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":85.111,"end":87.433,"text":"那這些新的投資項目要對專業的投資人募集資金要怎麼做呢?"},{"start":112.625,"end":119.347,"text":"我們剛剛有提到我們現在有上市櫃剛剛董事長在這邊我們提到的我們對這些真的要籌資的話那個是上市櫃我們剛剛有有委員說到臺灣有98次中小企業"},{"start":133.63,"end":135.732,"text":"臺灣的詐騙這麼盛行其實也就是因為很多人沒有投資的管道"},{"start":155.632,"end":177.1,"text":"在比如說很多產業有一些單位拿不到錢一些人有錢那這中間的一些我們一些不管金融機構也好或是相關的這些協助募資的單位是不是也沒有相應的這個相關的法令啊比照美國其他國家一樣進步的法令讓他們可以來做這個相關的這個資金的這個募集啊"},{"start":177.88,"end":194.547,"text":"這當然比說其他國家有更好的制度我們會來參採不過本國有他自己的限制剛剛委員提到我們對於這些中小企業或中小微企業我們在過去假如銀行端我們在長期的那個有關融資的資助剛剛經濟部也有報告你剛剛講是融資喔我說的是投資那是銀行融資是兩個議題喔"},{"start":196.648,"end":223.901,"text":"對,再來就是有關我們所監管的金控、金融機構不管是銀行、保險公司都有創投的投資對於他們的創...我想請問你啦我直接問你喔因為你沒有回答專業投資人是不是很多都放在這個國外比如新加坡、香港啊都有很多做這個什麼這個家族的這個辦公室啊很多專業經理人那我國的資產管理業者怎麼樣跟這些可以跟這些怎麼樣跟這些對象進行公開的這個募集"},{"start":225.288,"end":245.789,"text":"就是我們現在的話就是這些高淨值的客戶他有兩個選擇一個是假如說他要做財富管理的話那會選擇是由我們金融機構那如果說你要做資產管理的話就會跟我們的這些投資他可能會選擇比如說創投啦還有像比如說我們的PE啊這些還有投信公司PE是虱目嘛對對對"},{"start":247.99,"end":271.224,"text":"對就類似像這樣他有不同的管道可以從他這邊得到一個投資的機會你現在要開放比如做資產管理中心外國的這些資產管理中心他們可以在因為外國的法律開放他們可以在外國募集資金對到臺灣來做相關的投資嘛這個沒問題嘛對不對但是我們本國呢本國的業者呢沒有辦法對外募資啊這是不是變成有不利的這個競爭地位啊"},{"start":273.654,"end":297.928,"text":"這個本國的投信公司他當然可以募集本國的基金對不對然後他也可以募集以後對海外銷售募集本國你是指比如說PE對不對不只但PE是他另外一個業務比如說他可以募集一般的基金這是對一些這個管道有管道的人那對很多投資大眾來講他沒有獲得這些訊息的管道啊也沒有這樣這個可以投資的方法那這個部分的落差你要怎麼補足呢"},{"start":298.548,"end":317.978,"text":"這個我們當然就是透過一些他們之間的銷售管理還有我們的教育訓練來做這些事情像比如說PE這些東西投資絕對不會是一般的專業投資人來做的比如說真的是一些已經成熟到可以上市櫃當然就一般人就可以投資前端的部分這樣就是要創造這麼多"},{"start":323.141,"end":346.134,"text":"所以在這個很專業的裡頭跟這個上市櫃那個也不用提那個是已經到了很進步的那個階段了那這中間一般的百姓除了去買這個基金做這樣的投資金融這個市場上投資實際上如果一般的百姓想要參與很多新創事業的投資的時候他們是沒有投資管道的沒有不知道怎麼樣去獲得這個這時候就很多所以很多詐騙集團會產生嘛"},{"start":348.495,"end":368.704,"text":"對 這時候就是要 如果真的正當管道就要透過資產管理業者來做這些事情他去提供那這個法令的部分如果我們限制太嚴格的話你現在在做亞洲資產管理中心如果在法令的部分你的限制比國外的相關法令嚴格的話你就會限這些本國的業者跟外國的資產管理業者在不公平的競爭地位"},{"start":369.164,"end":390.237,"text":"當然就是資金是國際競爭的假設台灣的一些法規對這些資金相對是比較不便利或是不友善當然這個競爭力就會下降我們要變成亞洲資產管理中心資金也是國際競爭如果我們的法令比較不進步我們的政策比較不open當然不要說我們的地緣政治"},{"start":390.977,"end":407.046,"text":"這樣子臺灣怎麼變成亞洲這個資產管理中心這個確實我們今晚會很努力我們請同仁盤點一下我們大概兩年之內我們要鬆綁54條我們關聯的規定好 那我想請問今晚會哪一個單位每年都出國考察這個金融科技啊108年44萬109年到那個11年沒有出國110年25萬112年54萬113年46萬今年要這個預算數要增加到107萬了這些預算出國考察是哪個單位去做考察的"},{"start":419.889,"end":447.16,"text":"主要是我們創新中心我們中規處創新中心是中規處派員出國考察是嗎對就是開會或是看他的目的性質來派適當的人員出國比如說像這些今年107萬是為哪個單位出國考察呢請我們處長說明一下這個是像今年的話我們是就是3月份的時候有去日本那不是去哪裡沒關係派哪些單位去我們金管會裡面哪些單位"},{"start":447.908,"end":448.529,"text":"其實我們在每年我們大概"},{"start":473.154,"end":484.197,"text":"發佈過我們的金融科技發展路徑圖1.0跟2.0我們就是很多是參考我們考察回來的結果沒關係你把這個相關的考察報告先提供給我我想請問在你們報告裡頭這個怎麼不寫這個股權期末的這個績效我上個會期就諮詢過了這個研議民間版的創規機制金管會說104年開放證券商的經營這個"},{"start":496.059,"end":496.219,"text":"主席"},{"start":569.005,"end":572.98,"text":"答案然後績效還是掛零對吧我再請問國發會"},{"start":575.12,"end":601.205,"text":"局長您聽到嗎?您知道我的意思嗎?政府是創造環境不是自己做然後做不好然後績效掛鈴你們工作實在量源很大副主委請教這個臺灣新創產業的這個企業齁你們這個也支持新創產業嘛齁新創產業新增數逐年減少齁這個齁現在大概有7900家身為國發會你看看我們的那個數據齁這個Fintech那個數據從20"},{"start":604.805,"end":612.25,"text":"2017年開始每年逐年下降從800多加800多到700多、600多、300多、200多、100多到2024現在22加這個逐年檢討的主因是什麼跟委員報告第一個因為今年還沒到沒關係不算今年從87654321一直下降國發會不是很支持嗎這不是國家的政策嗎我們的支持力道一直沒有減弱但是為什麼一直下降"},{"start":632.822,"end":648.692,"text":"其實如果委員注意大概這幾年我覺得一方面可能跟大環境有關係大環境因為你有注意到21、22年這幾年比較少的是正好是疫情的關係那前幾年一直下降23開始就沒有疫情了22以後就沒有疫情了從200多要變100多家"},{"start":649.918,"end":666.056,"text":"其實如果注意的話其實前幾年大概都還維持在六七百家以上不要講總數嘛你們新創就是就是每年增加的每年哪有呢去年113去年已經沒有疫情囉不要騙我是是是為什麼你們在做什麼沒有"},{"start":666.696,"end":690.927,"text":"委員我們的政策其實一直都在增加如果您...政策一直增加但是加速一直減少這是原因所以我們也希望這個源頭活水能夠維持我們會繼續加大你們不是希望這是你們要去擋到的目的啊是是是沒有做到的原因是什麼沒有所以我們現在會...經濟部上來的時候會加速跟...經濟部有中小企業署嗎我們中小企業署要上來中小企業新創署喔沒有國防委員會回答完畢你把它回答完為什麼是"},{"start":693.068,"end":714.573,"text":"沒有 所以我沒有注意到這個當然原因可能很複雜那我們希望在大學、法人、新創或者是企業部份大學法人我順便跟你講我看你們今天有提供是一個假消息嗎你們說你們跟這個臺大校友臺大校友基金嘛 對不對做一個校園這個要投資什麼校園這個成立臺灣第一個校友VC投資基金這是假新聞嗎"},{"start":716.301,"end":730.01,"text":"不是嘛,什麼叫做第一個校友投資,20年前成大,交通大學早就有了,你是在詐騙國人還是在詐騙立法院?不是,因為他們很多校友基金的目的是透過投資上市櫃股票有獲利回饋給學校,"},{"start":731.158,"end":758.733,"text":"那我們臺大規劃的這個校友基金就純粹就類似於VC的方式是直接投資新創就是不太一樣所以講第一個的意思是這個意思就性質不太一樣你們現在我據本席得到的訊息是你們沒有想要鼓勵提供資源給一些民間業者反而是找特定對象跟臺大洽談這是圖利特定對象不會啦而且還做假新聞說只有這個好像第一個校友基金沒有啦其實這個交大跟成大早就辦過還是這只是你"},{"start":760.294,"end":771.218,"text":"為了這個報告寫的故意要寫個東西好像你們有做什麼事情一樣那這個你們的這個創投天使方案現在是成資金已經成為零了是嗎沒有啊沒有嗎"},{"start":773.79,"end":792.305,"text":"我幫了50億元去做天使投資現在的資金是多少現在已經投了三十幾億了現在的資金是多少不是投了多少你現在的資金是多少現在已經投了38億了所以這個額度還有十幾億那如果額度要完還可以繼續增加那我請問在疫情期間你的這個特別書庫你剛剛說疫情嘛項目你回收了多少"},{"start":793.969,"end":794.269,"text":"美國跟日本"},{"start":816.687,"end":836.539,"text":"我看你們新創署的計畫裡頭在議題就好了還沒問到亞洲資產管理中心新創署的計畫裡頭多部分都是法人在學校在辦理你沒有規劃一個好的生態系讓民間人自主發展一個新創生態系的平台這個部分是不是你們要回去檢討一下"},{"start":837.039,"end":841.262,"text":"市長請你看一下美國、日本、以色列都是民間在發展我們政府不要什麼都自己辦剛剛跟鄭麒麟說軍管會說的也是一樣什麼事情都想說政府自己辦政府第一個修理很慢第二個實際上"},{"start":862.138,"end":888.351,"text":"本席所接觸的各個產業裡頭對我們的政府的這種高度監管還有反應很慢還有很多的這個思維跟民間的創新都跟不上事實上很多產業都頗有危言很多產業各行各業所以我希望在這個我們新的這個主委的帶領之下要open mind把那個頭腦打開然後那個下面的相關的要跟上不然這個我們事實上也是站在"},{"start":888.891,"end":889.951,"text":"陳玉珍委員．下一位質詢委員王洪威委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":797,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時46分）主席，我先請金管會主委，待會有國發會和經濟部。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委好。我看你的決心不錯，也有一點行動力，現在我看有如火如荼要做到兩年有感，讓臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心這個計畫，已經講了幾十年的計畫好像感覺有一點機會，不過我感覺你面臨最大的挑戰，我聽很多立委的質詢，對法令的鬆綁和政策方面，我們都是相當支持的，但是我剛剛看到你在備詢的時候，有問題的話，下面的相關單位沒有上來協助提供資料，我覺得你面臨最大的挑戰可能不是來自我們這些外部，這是賴總統的政策，沒有問題，我看比較大的挑戰可能是你的先進的頭腦要幫忙你相關官僚體系要打開頭腦，這個要open。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們同仁很不錯，待會他們會……"],["陳委員玉珍：認真很不錯，我沒有否定他們很認真，但是很多觀念這麼多年來就是這個樣子，可能還有其他部會，像財政部稅負方面的觀念、央行的外匯，不認為自己是管制，但是民間聲音就這麼多，國發會的政策、各方面可能也要一起來跟上，不然會非常非常辛苦，我們立法院當然站在支持的立場。你在書面報告中提到為了協助金融科技及新創業者籌得充足持續的多元資金，你要支持投資臺灣、支持產業發展，推動策略性投資項目。這些新的投資項目要對專業的投資人募集資金要怎麼做呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛有提到，我們現在有上市櫃，剛剛董事長也在這邊，就像我們提到我們對這些真的要籌資的話，當然如果能夠在……"],["陳委員玉珍：那個是上市櫃，我們剛剛也有委員提到，臺灣有98%是中小企業，就業人口也占很高，新創還沒有上市櫃以前的資金取得來源，例如要經過新創公司的投資，在這個部分的話，臺灣的詐騙這麼多、這麼盛行，其實也就是因為很多人沒有投資的管道嘛！再比如說很多產業，有一些單位拿不到錢，有一些人有錢，那這中間不管金融機構也好，或是這些相關協助募資的單位，是不是也沒有相應、相關的法令，比照美國其他國家一樣進步的法令，讓他們可以做資金的募集？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然其他國家有更好的制度我們會來參採，不過本國有自己的限制。剛剛委員有提到，我們對於這些中小企業或中小微企業，在過去假如銀行端有長期融資的資助，剛剛經濟部也有報告過……"],["陳委員玉珍：你剛剛講的是融資，我說的是投資，那是銀行融資，是兩個議題啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，再來就是有關我們所經管金控金融機構，不管是銀行、保險公司，都有創投的投資……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於他們……"],["陳委員玉珍：我直接問你啦！因為你沒有回答。專業投資人是不是很多都放在國外，比如新加坡、香港都有很多做家族的辦公室，很多專業經理人。那我國的資產管理業者，怎麼跟這些對象進行公開的募集？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，就是這些高淨值的客戶，他有兩個選擇，一個是假如他要做財富管理的話，那會選擇是由我們金融機構；如果要做資產管理的話，他可能會選擇比如說創投，還有像我們的PE，還有投信公司……"],["陳委員玉珍：PE是私募嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，類似像這樣，他有不同的管道，可以從他這邊得到一個投資的機會。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你現在要開放，比如做資產管理中心，外國的資產管理中心，因為外國的法律開放，他們可以在外國募集資金，到臺灣來做相關的投資，這個沒問題對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，就比如……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我們本國呢？本國的業者呢？沒有辦法對外募資啊！這是不是變成不利的競爭地位啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：本國的投信公司當然可以募集本國的基金，然後它也可以募集以後對海外銷售……"],["陳委員玉珍：募集本國，你是指比如說PE對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不只，PE是它另外一個業務，比如說它可以募集一般的基金……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是對一些有管道的，對很多投資大眾來講，他沒有獲得這些訊息的管道啊！也沒有這個可以投資的方法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那這個部分的落差你要怎麼補足呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們當然就是透過一些他們之間的銷售管道，還有我們的教育訓練來做這些事情，像PE這些東西，投資絕對不會是一般的……"],["陳委員玉珍：專業投資。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是專業投資人來做的。"],["陳委員玉珍：是專業投資的沒有問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，比如真的是一些成熟到已經可以上市櫃，當然是一般人就可以投資。"],["陳委員玉珍：那些我都說沒有問題，我們在說那個部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：前端的部分就是要創造這麼多……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以上市櫃也不用提了，那也是已經到很進步的階段了。這中間一般的百姓，除了去買基金做這樣的投資，在金融市場上投資，實際上如果一般的百姓想要參與很多新創事業投資的時候，他們是沒有投資管道的。不知道怎麼樣去獲得……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這時候就透過……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這時候就很多詐騙集團會產生嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這時候如果是真的正當管道，就要透過資產管理業者來做這些事情，他去提供這些投資機會……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個法令的部分，如果我們限制太嚴格的話，你現在在做亞洲資產管理中心，如果法令限制比國外的相關法令嚴格的話，就會使得本國的業者跟外國的資產管理業者處在不公平的競爭地位啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然資金是國際競爭的，假設臺灣的一些法規，對這些資金相對是比較不便利或是不友善，當然這個競爭力就會下降。"],["陳委員玉珍：是啊！我們要變成亞洲資產管理中心，資金也是國際競爭，如果我們的法令比較不進步，我們的政策比較不開放，那當然就不要說我們的地緣政治，這樣子臺灣怎麼變成亞洲資產管理中心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個確實，我們金管會很努力，我們請同仁盤點一下，大概兩年之內要鬆綁54個管理規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那我想請問，金管會哪一個單位每年都出國考察金融科技？108年44萬，109年到110年沒有出國，111年25萬，112年54萬，113年46萬，今年預算數要增加到107萬，這些預算出國考察，是哪個單位去做考察的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是我們綜規處創新中心。"],["陳委員玉珍：是綜規處派員出國考察是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是開會或是看它的目的性質，來派適當的人員出國。"],["陳委員玉珍：今年的107萬是為哪個單位出國考察呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：請我們處長說明一下。"],["胡處長則華：今年的話我們是3月的時候有去日本。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，去哪裡沒關係，派哪些單位去？我們金管會裡面哪些單位？"],["胡處長則華：原則上是創新中心，專門在負責金融科技的。"],["陳委員玉珍：金融科技創新中心？"],["胡處長則華：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果考察過別的國家的政策，回來後發現國內的政策比別的國家不進步，就不能用國情不同來講，你們有提出什麼真正的計畫嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們發布過我們的金融科技發展路徑圖1.0跟2.0，就是參考很多我們考察回來的結果。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，沒關係，你把相關的考察報告先提供給我。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請問，在你們的報告裡怎麼不寫股權群募績效？我上個會期就質詢過研議民間版創櫃機制，金管會說104年開放證券商得經營股權性質的群眾募資業，成效為3家新創公司，募資新臺幣1,700萬元，請問3年到5年有績效嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是我們在……"],["陳委員玉珍：證期局，有績效嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們確實有3家，詳細的內容我請局長說明。"],["陳委員玉珍：這3年有什麼績效嗎？"],["張局長振山：目前來講有3家業者。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，這已經講很久了，這104年開始，那過去3年到5年的績效是不是掛零？"],["張局長振山：一千七百多萬募資成功。"],["陳委員玉珍：1,700萬是從104年開始，那是累積的，我有查過數據。過去3年到5年的績效在哪裡？你不知道是不是？"],["張局長振山：當然現在看起來那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：是不是掛零？我會問你就是因為我查過了。"],["張局長振山：最近來講是掛零沒錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：掛零嘛！沒錯嘛！"],["張局長振山：櫃買中心已經在做專案處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼呢？你們這麼努力，也在研議民間版的創櫃制度，為什麼績效會是掛零？這3年到5年都掛零！現在櫃買中心用免費服務給新創公司對不對？事實上政府應該提供環境嘛！讓民間的產業可以去發展，做好一個規則提供環境，而不是政府自己又球員兼裁判，然後績效還是掛零，對吧？"],["張局長振山：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：局長您有聽到嗎？您知道我的意思嗎？政府是創造環境，不是自己做，然後做不好，然後績效掛零，你們工作量實在也很大。我再請問國發會，請教副主委，你們也支持新創產業，臺灣新創產業新增數逐年減少，現在大概有7,900家。國發會你看看FINDIT的數據，從2017年開始，每年逐年下降，從八百多、七百多、六百多、三百多、二百多，到2024年現在22家，這個逐年減少的主因是什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：跟委員報告，第一，因為今年還沒到……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係不算今年，從8、7、6、5、4、3、2、1一直下降，國發會不是很支持嗎？這不是國家的政策嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：我們的支持力道一直沒有減弱。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是為什麼一直下降？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：這幾年我覺得一方面可能跟大環境有關係……"],["陳委員玉珍：大環境？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：2021、2022年這幾年比較少，正好是疫情的關係……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那前幾年就一直下降啊！2023年以後就沒有疫情了，從二百多家變一百多家。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：其實前幾年大概都還維持在6、700家以上。"],["陳委員玉珍：不要講總數嘛！你們新創就是……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：沒有，就是每年增加的家數。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪有？去年（112年）已經沒有疫情囉！不要騙我。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼？你們在做什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員，我們的政策其實一直都在增加，如果您……"],["陳委員玉珍：政策一直增加，但是家數一直減少，這是什麼原因？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：所以我們也希望這個源頭活水能夠維持，我們會繼續加大。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們不是希望，這是你們要去達到的目的。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有做到的原因是什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：所以我們現在會加速跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：經濟部上來一下，有中小企業署吧？換中小企業新創署上來。國發會你把它回答完，為什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：所以我們有注意到這個，當然原因可能很複雜，我們希望在大學、法人新創或者是企業部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：很複雜？那大學法人我順便跟你講，我看你們今天是提供一個假消息嗎？你們說你們跟台大校友基金做一個……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，臺大在規劃……"],["陳委員玉珍：要成立臺灣第一個校友VC投資基金，這是假新聞嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不是。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是嘛！什麼叫做第一個校友投資基金？20年前成大、交通大學早就有了，你是在詐騙國人，還是在詐騙立法委員？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不是，因為很多校友基金的目的是透過投資上市櫃股票有獲利回饋給學校，臺大規劃的這個校友基金就純粹類似於VC的方式，是直接投資新創，所以講第一個的意思是這樣，就是性質不太一樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：據本席得到的訊息是，你們沒有想要鼓勵提供資源給一些民間業者，反而是找特定對象跟臺大洽談，這是圖利特定對象。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不會啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：而且還做假新聞說這個好像是第一個校友基金，其實交大跟成大早就做過。還是這只是你為了報告寫的，故意要寫一個東西，好像你們有做什麼事情一樣。現在你們這個創投天使方案，資金已經成為零了是嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：沒有啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有嗎？那我再請問你……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：我們花了50億元去做天使投資。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在資金是多少？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：現在已經投了三十幾億了。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在的資金多少？不是投了多少，你現在的資金是多少？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：現在已經投了38億了，所以額度還有十幾億，如果額度用完還可以繼續增加。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我請問在疫情期間，你的特別紓困項目回收了多少？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不好意思，這個回收多少，我可能要問一下國發基金。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那你會後提供資料給我。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問台杉作為國家級的投資公司，投資了臺灣多少新創公司？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：這個我會後也一併提供。"],["陳委員玉珍：也是會後提供資料？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，不好意思，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：國發會都沒有辦法回答，都要會後提供。我想請問經濟部，美國跟日本……再一題就好了，還沒問到亞洲資產管理中心。我看你們新創署的計畫裡頭，多半都是法人、學校在辦理，你沒有一個規劃好的生態系，讓民間能自主發展一個新創生態系的平台，這個部分是不是你們要回去檢討一下？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，我們最近這幾年也在鼓勵民間成立加速器，也有補助許多民間的創意機構，在做一些新創的輔導。"],["陳委員玉珍：次長，請你看一下美國、日本、以色列都是民間在發展，我們政府不要什麼都自己辦，剛剛跟金管會證期局說的也是一樣，什麼事情都想政府自己辦。政府第一個效率很慢，第二，事實上據本席所接觸的各個產業，對我們政府的這種高度監管，還有反應很慢以及很多思維都跟民間的創新跟不上，事實上很多產業都頗有微詞。所以我希望在我們新主委的帶領之下，要open mind把頭腦打開，然後下面的相關單位也要跟上。我們事實上也是站在支持主委、支持次長的立場，這個政策就要儘量來做開放。因為時間的關係，亞洲資產管理中心下次再來問財政部，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳玉珍委員，下一位質詢委員為王鴻薇委員。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍）：現在已經12點，所以我們中午不休息，便當在各自座位上就各自用餐。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b0ae3c31323d9ff981a854d634de4a24c5966be1ac5b6e0f9d197f29790cd35605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:34:40 - 11:47:24","影片長度":"00:12:44","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:34:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:47:24+08:00","duration":764,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.73721875,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.79596875,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.11221875,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.12909375,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.770343750000002,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.85471875,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.765968750000003,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21.79971875,"end":21.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.83346875,"end":21.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21.85034375,"end":22.356593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.356593750000002,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.094718750000002,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.87034375,"end":53.642843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.39096875,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.31784375,"end":57.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.760343750000004,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.73034375,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.11346875000001,"end":77.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.79096875,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.32596875,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.80221875000001,"end":94.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.71659375,"end":135.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.87471875,"end":147.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":147.48471875,"end":147.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":148.00784375,"end":151.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":152.66534375,"end":158.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":158.63909375,"end":160.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":160.32659375,"end":161.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":161.45721875,"end":166.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":166.75596875000002,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":170.50221875,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":171.95346875,"end":174.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":174.97409375,"end":178.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":179.09159375000002,"end":186.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.70659375000002,"end":188.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":188.33909375000002,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.97534375,"end":195.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":195.40971875000002,"end":201.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.47221875000002,"end":202.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":202.56471875000003,"end":208.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":208.90971875000002,"end":214.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.31846875000002,"end":212.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":214.56284375,"end":221.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.27909375000002,"end":226.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":226.78034375000001,"end":230.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":230.56034375000002,"end":231.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":231.87659375,"end":235.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.41221875000002,"end":233.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.56409375,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":235.48784375000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.71034375000002,"end":243.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.51596875,"end":246.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.40596875000003,"end":251.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.24909375000001,"end":252.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":252.61596875,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":255.38346875000002,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":259.63596875,"end":259.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":260.20971875000004,"end":264.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":265.03596875,"end":266.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":266.85846875000004,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":270.63846875,"end":271.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.92534375,"end":270.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":271.81971875,"end":277.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":277.89471875000004,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.86909375,"end":280.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":280.94909375000003,"end":295.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.52096875,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.75284375,"end":299.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.54534375000003,"end":305.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.72159375,"end":317.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.82096875,"end":325.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.21659375,"end":324.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":326.02221875000004,"end":343.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.81409375000004,"end":335.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":343.87596875,"end":350.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.11596875000004,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.43221875,"end":349.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":350.40659375,"end":356.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.60846875000004,"end":356.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.32971875000004,"end":356.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.41409375,"end":356.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.43096875000003,"end":356.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.44784375,"end":356.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.48159375,"end":356.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.49846875000003,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.97096875,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.03846875000005,"end":359.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.61596875000004,"end":367.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.43346875000003,"end":369.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.88034375,"end":372.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.93471875,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.97846875000005,"end":395.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.73284375000003,"end":403.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":403.86659375000005,"end":409.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":409.72221875,"end":413.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.50659375000004,"end":441.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.66659375,"end":456.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.77034375000005,"end":453.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.70659375,"end":456.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.63471875000005,"end":457.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.93846875,"end":458.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.71034375000005,"end":465.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.49471875,"end":461.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.33409375,"end":464.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.97096875000005,"end":467.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.45159375000003,"end":468.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.26159375000003,"end":468.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.68346875000003,"end":473.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.86409375000005,"end":483.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.42784375,"end":510.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.73596875000004,"end":512.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.6765937499999,"end":519.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.6459687500001,"end":522.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.44721875,"end":523.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.13471875,"end":527.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.93159375,"end":535.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.5378437500001,"end":538.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.73159375,"end":542.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.1359687500001,"end":546.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.5615937499999,"end":549.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.2234687499999,"end":553.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.4297187500001,"end":554.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":554.30721875,"end":554.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.1172187500001,"end":556.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.3953437499999,"end":560.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.7534687500001,"end":564.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.30971875,"end":569.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.51159375,"end":569.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.7309687500001,"end":569.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.96721875,"end":571.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.5659687500001,"end":579.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.0247187500001,"end":580.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.1047187500001,"end":585.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":585.82971875,"end":590.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.45346875,"end":602.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":603.02534375,"end":609.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.37471875,"end":609.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":610.2647187499999,"end":613.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.1884687500001,"end":613.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.23471875,"end":616.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.7278437500001,"end":618.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.47846875,"end":620.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":621.6384687500001,"end":625.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":625.94159375,"end":630.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":630.71721875,"end":633.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.73409375,"end":630.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.7678437500001,"end":631.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":634.24409375,"end":639.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.73284375,"end":647.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":647.2209687500001,"end":651.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":652.09784375,"end":653.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":653.92034375,"end":654.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":655.2534687500001,"end":666.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":666.3234687500001,"end":672.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.07784375,"end":672.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.49971875,"end":672.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.71909375,"end":686.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.0290937500001,"end":689.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.2734687500001,"end":693.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.55971875,"end":703.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.54971875,"end":715.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.8740937500002,"end":707.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.5984687499999,"end":745.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":745.61909375,"end":750.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":750.2934687500001,"end":753.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.32284375,"end":753.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.58409375,"end":758.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.26596875,"end":764.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.064,"end":20.346,"text":"請彭主委那另外也會問到財政部處參司中央銀行國發會處參司同副司長中央銀行原副總裁國發會三副主委謝謝要讓他們起來運動一下打前場"},{"start":21.949,"end":49.945,"text":"委員好主委您好今天我們安排亞洲資產管理中心來一起做討論其實我們也都引頸期盼這除了是賴總統的一個政見相信未來也會是您很重要的一個政績我們也相信你會盡全力的來把它做好所以有一些問題還有一些疑慮就想要請教大家"},{"start":51.146,"end":52.81,"text":"首先我們確實看到臺灣2024年的超額儲蓄率高達16.7%"},{"start":60.785,"end":85.785,"text":"那這也就是說它是高達4.21兆那已經有連續4年我們看到數據我們的超額儲蓄呢是站穩3兆元又首度衝破4兆成為歷史新高再再都顯示我們國內的閒置資金確實是很多而且呢根據安聯全球財富報告"},{"start":86.906,"end":104.279,"text":"在2022年底每一位臺灣人平均擁有的淨資產是新台幣479萬當然這個可能也顯示著我們的貧富差距很大但是畢竟它在全球最富有國家當中它是名列第五"},{"start":104.859,"end":131.744,"text":"所以這些客觀的數據也都讓我們覺得說對呀臺灣確實是應該有這樣的潛力能力能夠做一個亞洲資產管理中心但是我們也有很多的疑問因為剛上路而且呢臨近的其他國家也都已經做得很好那我不曉得說這個部分就是想要先請教主委我們最主要的目標就是要把"},{"start":132.244,"end":134.126,"text":"我先從這個後面的問題先回答起"},{"start":152.728,"end":178.419,"text":"那過去是因為就以保險業資金來講因為保險業過去因為他所收的保費是有預定利率的這些負債成本所以他必須在國外找到比他超過他成本的那個資產投資那國外的債券呢就提供很好的這個問題但是最近幾年因為美國的這個升息導致他的投資的風險增加再來就是因為導致這個避險成本很高"},{"start":179.119,"end":202.305,"text":"那也相對的會影響到他的資本市主力所以最近呢他們會比較多的意願想把這個錢投資在臺灣對那到底有什麼更好的金融商品現在他們在做的像比如說可以看得出來比較明顯像我們這個綠能相關的投資綠能是好投資對還有就像比如說他們現在開始做一些國內一些所謂的專案的BOTBOT哪一種BOT案"},{"start":202.885,"end":204.906,"text":"所以目前我們都有看到有一些資金引流回來投資在這些地方"},{"start":226.715,"end":226.855,"text":"那老師談到"},{"start":245.028,"end":269.66,"text":"臺灣的公共建設那請問臺灣的公共建設也可以成為好的投資商品嗎?會熱絡嗎?其實這個牽涉到很多比較假設從我們金管會的角度來思考這個問題的話因為保險業他投資他有一定的比如說穩定的現金流一定的報酬率這是他一定的條件我們現在很多的公建確實有這樣的一個條件"},{"start":270.98,"end":272.581,"text":"謝謝主委我想問一下處參司"},{"start":299.68,"end":316.641,"text":"我們處參司是副司長副司長您好因為我們一直提到長照事業長照事業那我就想要請教一下處參司你們目前為止有什麼樣的具體作為嗎有什麼案子在推動嗎"},{"start":318.503,"end":334.453,"text":"報告委員那首先長照裡面本來就是我們促參可以做的公共建設項目我想知道目前有什麼但我們最近其實我們在每一年的這個商機座談每一年的招商大會我們這幾年都有把長照的部分做為一個專屬的項目結果呢"},{"start":336.154,"end":362.58,"text":"對,那目前我們其實也在輔導各個地方的政府那漸漸的也會有一些成果出現那譬如說我們臺北市我們知道他已經在做這個秀山的長照園區那我們財政部也會在臺北市是那目前譬如說臺南的部分那還有高雄的部分都已經成功的成員臺南市、高雄市對都是都會地區嘛是那我請教您喔我們常常長照2.0、1.0到3.0"},{"start":365.561,"end":388.383,"text":"最被詬病的就是原鄉偏鄉失能老人的照護做得最不好就是政府投注這麼多的錢但是始終沒有辦法解決失能老人原偏鄉失能老人的問題他們沒有地方可以送政府也不做我們也沒有能力到都會地區也沒有能力到私人機構"},{"start":390.004,"end":415.527,"text":"阿所以促參斯的長照事業有在往這個方向去努力積極推動嗎?是跟委員報告目前我們當然在積極輔導各個地方政府如果他們有提出相關的案源我們都會予以補助讓他們可以在政府的支持下自己花比較少的錢去進行可行性研究那我們後續也會進行輔導幫協助他們招商所以就是看地方政府來提案是"},{"start":416.027,"end":441.113,"text":"好 謝謝那再請教一下國發會因為今年5月在財政委員會也有排了這個國發會書面報告就請教一下因為國發會就有聽到說就增加促參紅利擴增受險業投資誘因等等面向那想要請教一下國發會目前做得如何因為已經過了半年"},{"start":441.744,"end":443.847,"text":"想知道什麼叫具體的方案?"},{"start":458.869,"end":459.509,"text":"為什麼我這樣子問因為我們看一下"},{"start":473.957,"end":488.999,"text":"向過去我在教育文化委員會我們有推動這個文化藝術講注及促進條例文獎條例的一個修法就是希望說香港過去他在藝術品的一個拍賣"},{"start":489.98,"end":519.002,"text":"他其實是居亞洲之冠也是全球的中心但是呢慢慢的外移到新加坡所以我們也希望說能夠把他吸引到臺灣來所以呢我們就把這個課徵所得稅的部分去做了修法增加這個誘因所以再請教一下金管會主委中央銀行就是這個部分因為我們的臺幣畢竟不是國際通用的貨幣所以我們也會在想誰會想來上市啊"},{"start":519.702,"end":534.554,"text":"那這個外匯管制呢到底有沒有要鬆綁那如何鬆綁因為這個債債法規的部分其實也會影響到我們整個中芯未來的一個運作面向所以想要請教一下央行副總裁請"},{"start":537.327,"end":556.699,"text":"首先因為臺灣這種經濟體系我們對匯率的穩定是非常重要那其實我們過去幾年我們一個原則就是只要是外幣對外幣我們是完全沒有管制但是外幣兌換新臺幣部分我們在於金殘障已經完全解除"},{"start":557.459,"end":558.179,"text":"願意來配合"},{"start":581.195,"end":589.765,"text":"我們這個亞洲資產管理中心有沒有包含中國有沒有包含中資我想這部分我們會配合國家政策來做同步的處理"},{"start":590.99,"end":592.171,"text":"目前國家的態度?"},{"start":611.754,"end":620.621,"text":"有在討論所以還是有限制那像那種這種如果外國投資他有含中資呢?"},{"start":622.17,"end":646.753,"text":"這個的話就是我們會特別來考慮但就是說這是一個整個對國家資金移動比如說我們假設像經濟部的投審會他們會對這個做一些審查還有像比如說假設他是一個金融機構要投資到我們這邊的話我們自己也會有一套審查那如果這樣說因為外資進來他其實也會考量到我們的兩岸關係那這個部分是有想到要怎麼克服嗎"},{"start":647.833,"end":672.139,"text":"這個確實是我們在國際情勢上面他對臺灣的印象會產生一些這樣的看法不過我們就是盡量的就是用一些我們真正的投資機會來解決這個問題因為畢竟我想資本他在全世界這個投資的時候有各種不同的考量剛剛地緣政治的安全是其中一個那是否有長期獲利投資的機會還是一個他很重要的考慮"},{"start":673,"end":688.722,"text":"我想這些部分都是因為我們從很多的客觀數據我們可以看到確實我們有這個潛力也有這個能力作為亞洲很棒的一個資產管理中心但是呢我們也因為地緣政治種種很多的因素包括法規面向等等"},{"start":689.463,"end":714.688,"text":"其實在在也都會影響這個中心未來的一個營運成果所以我們很希望就是金管會在這個地方能夠去常常的去做一個討論也把這樣的一個討論進度也能夠讓我們知道甚至是普遍的讓大眾知道那因為我們看到確實我們跟其他的亞洲資產管理中心來看的時候像香港、新加坡跟臺灣"},{"start":715.828,"end":736.67,"text":"就目前來看是差很遠但是我們剛起步我們要開始做那我們也希望未來能夠快速的超越那能夠把這個中心做好那這個部分人才的培育未來我們的地點的選定那怎麼樣去做一個資產管理人才的培訓等等"},{"start":737.25,"end":737.35,"text":"主席委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時34分）謝謝主席，有請金管會主委和財政部促參司、中央銀行、國發會。"],["主席：有請彭主委、促參司童副司長、中央銀行嚴副總裁、國發會詹副主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委你好。今天我們安排亞洲資產管理中心來一起做討論，其實我們也都引頸企盼，這除了是賴總統的政見，相信未來也會是你很重要的政績，我們也相信你會盡全力把它做好，所以有些問題和一些疑慮想請教大家。首先，我們確實看到臺灣2024年的超額儲蓄率高達16.7%，這也就是說它高達4.21兆元，從數據可以看到我們的超額儲蓄已經連續4年站穩3兆元，又首度衝破4兆元，成為歷史新高，在在都顯示我們國內的閒置資金確實很多，根據安聯全球財富報告，2022年底每一位臺灣人平均擁有的淨資產是新臺幣479萬元，當然，這也可能顯示著我們貧富差距很大，但是畢竟在全球最富有國家當中名列第5，所以這些客觀的數據也都讓我們覺得臺灣確實有這樣的潛力、能力能夠作為亞洲資產管理中心。但是我們也有很多的疑問，因為剛上路，而且鄰近的其他國家也都已經做得很好。先請教主委，我們最主要的目標就是要把臺商的資金吸引回臺灣，這是這個中心最主要的一個目標，我不曉得臺灣能不能提供更好的金融商品吸引保險資金留下，這個部分你怎麼看？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我先從後面的問題回答起，以保險業資金來講，因為保險業過去所收的保費有預定利率的負債成本，所以它必須在國外找到超過成本的資產投資，國外的債券就提供了很好的標的，但是最近幾年因為美國升息，導致它的投資風險增加，再者是導致避險成本很高，也相對的會影響它的資本適足率，所以最近它們會有比較高的意願想把錢留在臺灣，這會降低風險。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：到底有什麼更好的金融商品？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在它們在做的比較明顯可以看出來的像是綠能相關的投資。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：綠能是好投資。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，還有它們現在開始做一些國內專案的BOT。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：哪一種BOT案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們可以看到它們投資在各個地方政府的一些標案，像信義區有幾棟大樓、南港有幾棟大樓，都是由政府BOT，還有像高雄市政府有幾個大樓也都是保險公司去BOT來興建。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以目前我們都有看到一些資金引流回來投注在這些地方？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，主要是保險業的資金有兩個，一個是新錢，一個是舊錢，新錢就是每年收的保費，我們希望優先來留住這部分。舊錢已經投資在海外，它可能要到期或相對完成投資目標才會回來，我們希望雙軌並進。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：老是談到臺灣的公共建設，請問臺灣的公共建設也可以成為好的投資商品嗎？會熱絡嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個牽涉到比較多，假設從我們金管會的角度來思考這個問題的話，因為保險業投資要有穩定現金流、一定的報酬率，這是一定的條件，我們現在很多的公建確實有這樣的條件，但是公建要釋出成為投資的標的，因為保險業比較不適合直接經營投資，它比較適合間接的投資，例如提供資金，但是因為我們現在的公建還要跟預算編列競爭，剛才也有委員提到我們預算的成本比較低，假設變成證券化，也許成本比較高，但是我覺得這個觀念可能要再改變，比較有挑戰性。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委，我想問一下促參司，副司長你好，因為我們一直提到長照事業、長照事業，你們目前為止有什麼具體作為嗎？有什麼案子在推動嗎？"],["童副司長偉碩：委員好，首先長照本來就是我們促參可以做的公共建設項目。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想知道目前有什麼。"],["童副司長偉碩：我們在每一年的商機座談、每一年的招商大會，我們這幾年都有把長照的部分作為一個專屬的項目。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：結果呢？"],["童副司長偉碩：目前我們也在輔導各個地方政府，漸漸也會有一些成果出現，例如臺北市，我們知道它已經在做秀山的長照園區，財政部也會給予協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：在臺北市？"],["童副司長偉碩：是。目前像臺南的部分、高雄的部分都已經有成功簽約。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：都是都會地區嘛！"],["童副司長偉碩：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：長照2.0、1.0到3.0，最被詬病的就是原鄉、偏鄉失能老人的照護做得最不好，政府投注這麼多的錢，但是始終沒有辦法解決原、偏鄉失能老人的問題，他們沒有地方可以送，政府也不做，我們沒有能力到都會地區，也沒有能力到私人機構，所以促參司的長照事業有往這個方向努力積極推動嗎？"],["童副司長偉碩：我們當然積極輔導各個地方政府，如果它們有提出相關的案源，我們都會予以補助，讓它們可以在政府的支持下，自己花比較少的錢去進行可行性研究，我們後續也會進行輔導，協助它們招商。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以就是看地方政府來提案？"],["童副司長偉碩：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：再請教國發會，因為今年5月在財政委員會也有排了國發會書面報告，有聽到國發會就增加促參紅利、擴增壽險業投資誘因等等面向，目前做得如何？因為已經過了半年。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：跟委員報告，這樣子的構想我們已經提到行政院的經濟發展委員會，具體的方案10月7日也報行政院了，相關的工作，例如院的層級……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：想知道什麼叫具體的方案？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：就是有一個兆元投資臺灣的方案，10月7日已經報行政院了，裡面包含策略、執行的機關。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：會後給我一份資料。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我這樣問呢？因為，過去我在教育文化委員會，我們有推動文化藝術獎助及促進條例（文獎條例）的修法，香港過去在藝術品的拍賣其實居亞洲之冠，也是全球的中心，但是慢慢外移到新加坡，我們也希望能夠把它吸引到臺灣來，所以我們就把課徵所得稅的部分做了修法，增加誘因。再請教中央銀行，因為臺幣畢竟不是國際通用的貨幣，所以我們也在想誰會想來上市？外匯管制到底有沒有要鬆綁？如何鬆綁？因為法規的部分其實也會影響到整個中心未來的運作面向。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：首先，因為臺灣這種經濟體系，我們對匯率的穩定是非常重要的，其實我們過去幾年一個原則，只要外幣兌外幣，我們完全沒有管制，但是外幣兌換新臺幣部分，我們在經常帳已經完全解除，就是完全自由化了，只有在金融帳，我們其實也做了很大的放寬，如果有需要，我想我們會就個案去檢討。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是願意來配合的態度，謝謝央行。再請教主委，其他部會請回，亞洲資產管理中心有沒有包含中國、有沒有包含中資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這部分我們會配合國家政策來做同步的處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：目前國家的態度是什麼？因為臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第七十三條提到不得在臺灣地區從事投資行為，所以現在是什麼樣的態度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個態度都是一致的，跟國家整個對港資、陸資的想法一樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：目前國家的態度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們對這個是有限制的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有在討論？所以還是有限制？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果外國投資含有中資呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會特別來考慮，針對整個資金移動，例如經濟部有投審會，它們會對這些做一些審查。假設它是一個金融機構要投資到我們這邊的話，我們也會有一套審查機制。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為外資進來也會考量到我們的兩岸關係，這個部分有想到要怎麼克服嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個確實是我們在國際情勢上面對臺灣的印象會產生這樣的看法，不過我們儘量用一些我們真正的投資機會來解決這個問題，我想資本在全世界投資的時候有各種不同的考量，地緣政治的安全是其中一個，是否有長期獲利投資的機會還是一個它很重要的考慮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我們可以從很多客觀數據看到，確實我們有這個潛力，也有這個能力作為亞洲很棒的一個資產管理中心，但是我們也因為地緣政治種種很多的因素，包括法規面向等等，其實在在也都會影響這個中心未來營運成果，所以我們很希望金管會在這個地方能夠常常去做討論，也把這樣的討論進度讓我們知道，甚至普遍的讓大眾知道，因為我們看到確實我們跟其他亞洲資產中心來看的時候，像香港、新加坡和臺灣，就目前來看是差很遠，但是我們剛起步，我們要開始做，我們也希望未來能夠快速超越，能夠把這個中心做好，人才的培育、地點的選定、怎樣做資產管理人才的培訓等等，我想這個面向很多很廣，也沒有辦法在今天一次問完，但是就這個部分，我希望至少金管會能不能在一個月以內把你們的規劃方向讓我們有所瞭解，提供一個報告，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員鴻薇代）：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來質詢委員陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156120","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156120","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bd1015035143b0edeacf2ea2eceb6ef26ce0a1e5c1d8db7964a089865aff813835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:43:00 - 11:58:04","影片長度":"00:15:04","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:43:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:58:04+08:00","duration":904,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.07284375,"end":2.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.480968750000002,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.965968750000002,"end":31.941593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.890968750000003,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.53534375,"end":39.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.83909375,"end":39.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.97409375,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.024718750000005,"end":42.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.60659375,"end":44.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.893468750000004,"end":46.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.51346875,"end":44.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.63159375,"end":44.884718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.31909375,"end":61.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.765968750000006,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.56971875000001,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.74596875,"end":68.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.96534375,"end":70.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.37846875000001,"end":73.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.92221875,"end":75.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.51284375,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.00034375,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.81409375000001,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.73784375000001,"end":94.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.00784375,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.38596875000002,"end":142.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.82721875000001,"end":143.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.78909375,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.14471875,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.62534375,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":201.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.11346875,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.11034375000003,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.97846875000002,"end":255.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.99096875000004,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.52971875000003,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.94159375000004,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.64971875000003,"end":335.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.70846875,"end":344.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.78721875,"end":353.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.68034375,"end":360.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.63721875000005,"end":361.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.22346875,"end":362.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.45096875,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.97409375,"end":387.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.78034375000004,"end":392.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.42096875000004,"end":400.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.62659375000004,"end":402.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.44909375000003,"end":409.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.62096875000003,"end":413.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.63721875000005,"end":429.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.88784375,"end":445.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.91471875,"end":448.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.00284375,"end":487.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.15284375000005,"end":505.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.55534375,"end":508.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.96409375,"end":510.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.78659375,"end":510.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.87096875000003,"end":513.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.93346875,"end":516.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.2709687500001,"end":530.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.12534375,"end":541.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.0990937500001,"end":537.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.97159375,"end":545.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.3428437499999,"end":542.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.7009687500001,"end":567.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.0053437500001,"end":569.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.69721875,"end":571.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.4015937500001,"end":572.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.0090937500001,"end":572.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.2453437500001,"end":572.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.2622187500001,"end":578.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.83096875,"end":578.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.69159375,"end":583.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.1303437500001,"end":579.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.85534375,"end":587.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.34409375,"end":596.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.4272187500001,"end":602.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.8015937499999,"end":604.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.3247187500001,"end":612.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.42034375,"end":639.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.0828437499999,"end":646.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.9678437499999,"end":657.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.70034375,"end":667.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.27284375,"end":672.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.2803437500002,"end":678.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.38471875,"end":684.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.9622187500001,"end":683.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.3290937500001,"end":686.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.21909375,"end":689.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.37909375,"end":706.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.22846875,"end":721.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.1965937500001,"end":732.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.23721875,"end":738.9365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.12221875,"end":757.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.0559687500001,"end":763.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.85659375,"end":765.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.7678437500001,"end":780.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":778.79534375,"end":782.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.8034687500001,"end":781.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.84971875,"end":785.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.6128437500001,"end":786.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.4522187500002,"end":793.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.67909375,"end":805.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.7278437500001,"end":805.8797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.93034375,"end":810.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.82409375,"end":818.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.85221875,"end":828.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.3584687500002,"end":821.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.7622187500001,"end":845.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.72159375,"end":847.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.53971875,"end":849.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":850.37909375,"end":851.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.48034375,"end":850.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":851.79659375,"end":852.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.56846875,"end":869.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":868.36784375,"end":872.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.74284375,"end":896.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":873.71721875,"end":874.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":891.3684687500001,"end":895.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":895.90784375,"end":895.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":896.21159375,"end":900.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":901.1897187500001,"end":901.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.54409375,"end":903.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.1853437500001,"end":902.67471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":10.084,"text":"請國防部部長請郭部長是林委員好"},{"start":10.984,"end":15.746,"text":"部長你知道國防部所屬的軍備局預計要在114年度編列一筆高達68億5900萬的預算聽說這個未來要準備捐給中科院要在嘉義縣民雄蓋一個所謂推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發計劃對不對"},{"start":32.074,"end":61.216,"text":"那68我了解是公共預算編列不是我們是國安會那個因為行政院核定那等一下等一下因為時間時間會不夠那我先請問一下我就問什麼你們就答什麼就好了那請問部長那未來這一個無人機產業園區除了一部分是中科院自己要當作無人機的生產基地之外還有沒有其他功能"},{"start":63.188,"end":87.063,"text":"現在有分成西側跟東側那這個詳細的部分是不是請中院簡單回答研發生產製造都在這裡面它就是一個產業的生態系那所以照這樣看來的話這一個園區的目的就是要把軍用無人機的產業鏈從上游下游全部都集中在一起形成一個產業的聚落對吧"},{"start":88.215,"end":92.701,"text":"不只是軍用無人機是應該是所有的無人機全部都會在那個地方對不對好那問題來了那部長那你有沒有覺得說把雞蛋同樣都放在一個籃子裡面的問題呢因為我現在擔心的就是說像我們現在跟對岸中共這樣"},{"start":104.176,"end":121.526,"text":"知道我們台灣有一個那麼重要那麼跟國家安全國防自主有關的產業都聚集在那個地方了然後我擔心的是萬一兩岸真的要開戰了發生了事情時候的時候那中國是不是就只要往民雄航太曁無人機產業園區那邊丟幾顆飛彈只要打中一發那我們台灣的無人機的產能恐怕真的不知道要下降多少了那部長你不會擔心嗎"},{"start":131.411,"end":160.377,"text":"委員這個整個園區總共是50幾公頃那當然我們在就剛剛也有委員質詢我們在設計規劃和施工的時候我們會考慮到未來它的整體防空的部分好啦沒關係啦114年的預算反正還沒審嘛未來我們還是有時間一起來慢慢的共同來思考這個問題總之本席理解未來在這一個民雄航太曁無人機的產業園區是不是就是會像一個無人機版的科技園區呢"},{"start":163.286,"end":165.007,"text":"就是說我現在的問題就是推動產業的發展這一個職責不是應該是經濟部的事情嗎怎麼會叫國防部來做呢怎麼會叫中科院來負責推動產業發展的開發案呢"},{"start":178.734,"end":200.161,"text":"我想這個部分當然主要是說因為中科院有西側跟東側兩塊基地那西側的基地部分當然就現在的規劃當然就是說由中科院來做這個開發的一個工作那我想我們後續的部分也會成立一個專案編組"},{"start":201.201,"end":206.963,"text":"那我請問部長這個是真的是你們國防部跟中科院出於自願的嗎是真的是你們想要開發的計畫嗎還是因為負責產業開發還有推動產業發展的經濟部和國安會沒有錢所以逼我們有錢的國防部來當爐主啊亦要你們國防部吞下去來編的這個預算呢"},{"start":221.138,"end":226.402,"text":"委員 這個預算您可能有一點誤會它是從行政院的公共建設預算專案撥出來給國防部來執行的這就是我後面要問的問題就是我認為這肯定是行政院的陰謀嘛它為了要把這個協助民間的推動無人機的產業發展的目的冠上了打造國防自主的字眼然後讓我們國防部可以吞下這一筆的預算企圖來模糊整個焦點"},{"start":246.536,"end":262.664,"text":"那大家不敢隨便動這筆預算啊不然我們就會被批評說是反對國防自主然後被扣上親中的大帽子啊所以因為我覺得很奇怪就是中科院明明就是負責研發的嘛怎麼會叫你們去發展一個管理的這種產業園區呢"},{"start":264.565,"end":265.366,"text":"管理科學園區不是就是國科會的事情嗎?管理產業園區不是就是經濟部的業務執掌嗎?"},{"start":279.696,"end":298.041,"text":"但是中科院在這個部分包括規劃設置低速轟動這些檢測儀器設備還有這個無人機的AI模擬及算力中心它有它的專業所以在這個部分可以協助廠商在進行這些有關這個無人機這個一些工性的設計測試這些還有這些開發的這個部分我們可以來協助來進行這樣的一個驗證"},{"start":306.744,"end":335.179,"text":"所以中科院在這個部分有這個樣子的一個強項那當然前面的委員也提到了說中科院可能在管理的經驗上面會有所缺乏那這個部分我們會跟國科會有管理園區的這個經驗的人來做經驗交流那也招募這個部分的人才那這樣子雙方面結合我想會快速的來落實我們無人機自主生產的一個政策或者甚至打入國際供應鏈裡面一環這樣子的一個目標"},{"start":337.621,"end":360.76,"text":"中科院你如果有人力把廠房都蓋好那請問部長你覺得中科院他們有人力和多餘的人力再去營運營運這個民雄無人機嗎?一定沒有嗎?到最後是不是會VOT呢?那你們會覺得到最後你們的方式是不是會用VOT呢?我想這個另外當然要增加相關的人力然後剛剛也提到他們會另外再成立一個單位你們會想要怎麼做呢?這個"},{"start":363.516,"end":387.811,"text":"委員這個跟您報告就是像剛剛有委員會質詢提到的所以我們會向國科會還有經濟部去請教相關的規劃然後後面我們會在117年之前把這個整個管理辦法做出來但是我要跟委員強調一點當時說叫中科院管理這個園區就是要成立一個獨立於中科院之外的單位來管理而不是由中科院直接管理"},{"start":388.82,"end":396.791,"text":"好所以我剛才有看你們的內容是民雄西側的基地是經濟部配合嘛對不對但是這表示你應該還是你們負責營運嘛現在以後未來的負責營運是誰負責啊是經濟部嗎還是你們呢"},{"start":402.506,"end":427.236,"text":"就是成立一個獨立於中科院之外的單位但是要由中科院來協助成立這個單位來負責營運那另外跟委員報告就是說為什麼會整個這個園區的規劃由中科院來設計那是因為只有中科院有整個無人機產線的規劃設計和實際建造的能力所以我們可以提供給各廠商怎麼去鋪陳他產線的這樣的經驗"},{"start":429.943,"end":430.123,"text":"委員在108年中科院"},{"start":450.146,"end":469.835,"text":"向國防部成構了就有長波用的這一塊營地的時候當時原本就準備要來發展航太的相關產業那後來我們也準備把我們的整個無人機的部分也建設在這一塊區域只是因為我們自己本身的預算不夠所以東側中科院"},{"start":470.515,"end":485.013,"text":"奉董事會同意只投入了11.1億那西側部分空在那所以為了加速整個園區的建置行政院才會在原本的國防預算額度之外另外用公共建設預算去增付68億多來協助西側的開發"},{"start":489.195,"end":513.396,"text":"好啦就不為難你們了現在就是還有一個問題就是產業政策要促進發展當然這個是利益良善啦但是交給中科院你們這是研發單位嘛所以萬一你們以後委外經營我比較擔心的是萬一園區有事情的時候那以後萬一發生了一些事情請問這個我們立委要怎麼監督啊政府要怎麼追究責任啊這個你們有想到嗎"},{"start":516.301,"end":538.374,"text":"你們有做這樣的規劃嗎?就是說萬一這個園區以後有事情,廠房蓋完啊,如果委外經營啊,還是說是你們是誰要負責這個事情呢?就是說以後我們立委要怎麼監督你們呢?還有政府要怎麼追究這些責任呢?委員您剛剛也知道說我們三個月之內會提供一部未來管理的初步規劃報告嘛,對不對?所以三個月內會嗎?我也會把您剛剛的問題列到這個規劃報告裡面,因為我之前也還沒想。抱歉。那你就三個月內齁,OK,好。"},{"start":545.731,"end":546.131,"text":"要對漢翔計法"},{"start":573.589,"end":577.151,"text":"國防部的委託案國防部對中科院會不會有罰款呢?也會有我想請教一下是國防部罰中科院的錢比較多還是中科院罰漢翔的錢比較多呢?第一個就是"},{"start":589.915,"end":612.086,"text":"我們罰漢祥現在漢祥也會很努力的找各種理由如果他能夠拿到美國原廠給他的就是不可抗力因素的證明的話其實按合約我們就罰不到他那第二個就是國防部就是空軍委託我們做這個案子空軍最後會罰我多少我現在也不能說誰多會誰少我真的不太清楚"},{"start":613.462,"end":635.888,"text":"如果是漢祥要繳的罰款比中科院的多那可能是代表你們中科院堅照不立啊所以我現在還有一個問題就是說部長你前陣子漢祥不是有一個員工嗎然後在IG上面公開我們ADF和AJT的敏感的資料然後被法辦嘛那這個案子漢祥也是因為違反合約的保密的條款被中科院罰款100萬那這個罰款中科院會不會繳回國防部呢"},{"start":640.114,"end":645.931,"text":"包括不會因為按照設置條例因為我是合約甲方所以按照合約的話他的罰款是繳給我"},{"start":647.025,"end":670.113,"text":"好 那就奇怪了 上面兩個高校的案子都是高校級的合約嘛 漢翔延遲交機給中科院 中科院要依照合約交款給國防部嘛 對不對但是漢翔涉及洩漏機密 但是中科院卻不用交款給國防部 那不會很奇怪嗎剛剛中科院講的應該是兩個 一個是他中科院跟漢翔的罰款"},{"start":671.334,"end":678.395,"text":"這個是他對因為洩密的就是只有中科院嘛到中科院而已對不對中科院是不可能再繳回國防部的嘛"},{"start":680.461,"end":689.827,"text":"還有漢祥給我的延遲交機的罰款也是在中科院對 也是沒有繳回國防部是嗎是 對 但是空軍會針對但是是國防部付錢的啊為什麼什麼為什麼都是不會繳回就更奇怪我先來問一個機密外洩好了機密外洩國防部是建案的受影響人欸但是受害者是國防部欸但中科院你只是一個間接的然後你就變成受益人了這樣會不會覺得怪怪的啊"},{"start":707.25,"end":721.489,"text":"委員這不是受益人的部分因為在整個合約是我跟漢祥的合約關係跟國防部無關國防部跟我的關係是委制給我我再把委制的部分一部分是我的一部分是漢祥的"},{"start":722.227,"end":723.248,"text":"主席我再一下"},{"start":739.261,"end":743.983,"text":"再一分鐘這樣那個部長我還記得兩個禮拜之前那個雷神的預收款的問題嘛那現在的話就305億的預收款的有退還給我們嘛繳還國庫嘛但是繳還國庫的話就有一些貓膩啊這些錢現在是退到哪裡去呢是退到中央政府退到國防部退到空軍還是退到中科院呢"},{"start":765.918,"end":783.722,"text":"我想最後當然是會繳回國庫那相關這個過程當中是先繳回到哪一個這個要跟美方協調但是最後還是會完成結會之後會完成繳回國庫的一個作業所以現在還沒有協調嗎 對不對現在還不知道嘛現在近期之內就會有就會緩緩了"},{"start":787.663,"end":808.884,"text":"那我就暫時先問到這邊等整個看到底是退還到哪裡最後一定是回國庫這已經是確定的一個事情這個我們跟主計總處已經這個完成了現在只是說他有一個流程那最後一定是匯回來之後一定是繳回國庫"},{"start":810.902,"end":817.154,"text":"好那我在如果是這樣的話繳回國庫的時候那305億裡面有沒有包含美國政府跟我們說的4.4的兩項服務費"},{"start":820.295,"end":846.153,"text":"我想這個部分相關的現在都是預收款的這個部分那退回我們款項的總金額的部分都是屬於預收款的部分因為4.4的行政費的話是我們13.5億的納稅款所以如果今天他4.4的行政費4.4%的行政費如果沒有退給我們的話那我們要損失13.5億人民的納稅款那是不是國防部這邊是不是是不敢給美國要呢還是還是他們不給我們呢"},{"start":850.395,"end":850.896,"text":"所以有沒有包含4.4%的"},{"start":871.855,"end":899.391,"text":"沒有現在就是說確定全部都是雷神公司的預收款那這個部分那因為設計多個國家那全部都是用預收款的方式來退還那這個部分跟委員報告所以都是屬於預收現在外面還有媒體講說什麼互糧一次互糧餅沒有這我們察覺沒有這回事沒有這回事這個這個人也要屁咬一下沒有沒有這回事沒有沒有什麼13.5億的真的是也是蠻高的OK"},{"start":901.616,"end":902.059,"text":"好 那就這樣 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":710,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時43分）請國防部部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長，國防部所屬的軍備局預計在114年度編列一筆高達68億5,900萬元的預算，聽說這筆錢未來準備捐給中科院，要在嘉義縣民雄興建一個園區，就是推動民雄航太暨無人機產業園區開發計畫案，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：這68億元，據我的了解是以公共建設預算編列，不是我們，是國發會，因為是行政院核定，請他們說明一下相關流程。"],["林委員憶君：等一下，因為時間不夠，本席問什麼，你們就答什麼。請問部長，未來這個無人機產業園區，除了部分是中科院要當作無人機的生產基地之外，還有沒有其他功能？"],["顧部長立雄：現在有分成西側和東側，詳細的計畫是不是請中科院簡單回答？"],["李院長世強：研發、生產、製造都在這裡面，它就是一個產業的生態系。"],["林委員憶君：好。所以照這樣看來，這個園區的目的，就是要把軍用無人機的產業鏈上游、下游全部集中在一起，形成一個產業聚落，對吧？"],["李院長世強：不只是軍用無人機，應該是所有的無人機領域。"],["林委員憶君：全部都會在那個地方，對不對？好，那問題來了，部長，你有沒有覺得這就像把雞蛋放在同一個籃子裡？本席現在擔心的是，像我們現在和對岸中共的狀況，他們知道臺灣有一個那麼重要的地方，和國家安全、國防自主有關的產業都聚集在那裡，本席擔心的是，萬一兩岸真的開戰或發生事情，中國是不是只要往民雄航太暨無人機產業園區丟幾顆飛彈，只要打中一發，臺灣的無人機產能就不知道要下降多少。部長，你不會擔心嗎？"],["李院長世強：委員，整個園區總共是五十幾公頃，當然，剛剛也有委員質詢，在設計、規劃和施工的時候，我們會考慮到未來的整體防空。"],["林委員憶君：好，沒關係啦！反正114年的預算還沒審嘛！未來我們還有時間一起慢慢的思考這個問題。總之，就本席的理解，未來在民雄航太暨無人機產業園區，是否就是一個無人機版的科技園區呢？"],["顧部長立雄：無人機版的科技園區？這樣說也是……"],["林委員憶君：本席現在的問題是，推動產業發展的職責不是經濟部的事情嗎？怎麼會叫國防部做呢？怎麼會叫中科院負責推動產業發展的開發案呢？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分主要是因為中科院有西側和東側兩塊基地，西側的基地，現在的規劃當然就是由中科院做開發工作嘛！我們後續也會成立一個專案編組。"],["林委員憶君：請問部長，這真的是國防部和中科院出於自願的嗎？真的是你們想要開發的計畫嗎？還是因為負責產業開發、推動產業發展的經濟部和國發會沒有錢，所以逼有錢的國防部當爐主啊！硬要國防部編列這筆預算？"],["李院長世強：委員，您對這筆預算可能有一點誤會，它是從行政院的公共建設預算專案撥補給國防部執行。"],["林委員憶君：對啊！這就是本席後面要問的問題，本席認為這肯定是行政院的陰謀嘛！他們為了協助民間推動無人機產業發展，冠上打造國防自主的字眼，然後讓國防部吞下這一筆預算，企圖模糊整個焦點，這樣大家就不敢隨便動這筆預算，不然就會被批評反對國防自主，被扣上親中的大帽子。","本席覺得很奇怪，中科院明明就是負責研發的嘛！怎麼會叫你們去發展、管理這種產業園區呢？剛才院長也有說嘛！對不對？你們怎麼有這種能力呢？這不是叫鯨魚去爬樹嗎？對不對？管理科學園區不是國科會的事情嗎？管理產業園區不是經濟部的業務職掌嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：但是中科院在這個部分，包括規劃、設置低速風洞這些檢測儀器、設備，還有無人機的AI模擬及算力中心，他們都具備專業能力，這個部分可以協助廠商進行有關無人機一些功、性能的設計、測試，還有開發的部分，我們可以協助進行驗證，中科院在這個部分具有強項。","當然，前面的委員也有提到，中科院在管理經驗上可能有所缺乏，這個部分我們會和國科會有管理園區經驗的人做經驗交流，也會招募這部分的人才，這樣雙方面結合，就會快速落實無人機自主生產的政策，甚至打入國際供應鏈的一環，達到這樣的目標。"],["林委員憶君：好，這樣問題就來了，中科院如果有能力把廠房都蓋好，請問部長，你覺得中科院他們有多餘的人力再去營運民雄的無人機園區嗎？一定沒有嘛！最後你們是不是會採用BOT的方式呢？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分當然要增加相關人力，剛剛也提到，他們會另外再成立一個單位。"],["林委員憶君：你們想要怎麼做呢？"],["李院長世強：委員，就像剛剛有委員質詢提到的，我們會向國科會和經濟部請教相關規劃，也會在117年之前把整個管理辦法做出來。但是我要向委員強調一點，當時叫中科院管理這個園區，就是要成立一個獨立於中科院之外的單位來管理，而不是由中科院直接管理。"],["林委員憶君：本席剛才有看你們的報告內容，民雄西側的基地是由經濟部配合嘛！對不對？但還是由你們負責營運，未來由誰負責營運？是經濟部嗎？還是你們？"],["李院長世強：就是成立一個獨立於中科院之外的單位，由中科院協助成立，然後由這個單位負責營運。另外，為什麼這個園區的規劃是由中科院設計？因為只有中科院有無人機生產線的規劃、設計和實際建造能力，我們可以提供各廠商怎麼鋪陳生產線的經驗。"],["林委員憶君：就本席來看，本席覺得這個園區真的是國防部被拗預算蓋的啦！所以本席要再問一次，這個產業園區真的是國防部預定開發的計畫案嗎？是主動、自願要蓋的？還是行政院逼的呢？"],["李院長世強：委員，108年中科院向國防部承購、有償撥用這一塊營地的時候，當時原本就是準備要發展航太的相關產業，後來我們也準備把無人機的部分建置在這個區域，只是因為我們本身的預算不夠，所以中科院奉董事會同意，東側只投入11.1億元，西側的部分空著。為了加速整個園區的建置，行政院才會在原本的國防預算額度之外，另外用公共建設預算增付六十八億多元協助西側開發。"],["林委員憶君：好啦！就不為難你們了。現在還有一個問題，就是產業政策要促進發展，這當然是立意良善啦！但是交給中科院，你們是研發單位嘛！萬一你們以後委外經營，本席比較擔心的是，萬一園區發生事情，請問立委要怎麼監督？政府要怎麼追究責任？這部分你們有想到嗎？你們有做這樣的規劃嗎？廠房蓋完之後會不會委外經營？還是由你們的哪個單位負責這個事情呢？以後立委要怎麼監督你們？政府要怎麼追究這些責任呢？"],["李院長世強：委員，您也知道，我們3個月之內會提供一份未來管理的初步規劃報告嘛！對不對？"],["林委員憶君：所以3個月內會提供報告？"],["李院長世強：我也會把您剛剛的問題列到這個規劃報告裡面，因為我之前也沒有想過，抱歉。"],["林委員憶君：OK，那就請你們3個月內提供報告。接下來本席再問一下和中科院有關的問題，就是高教機的交機期程。請問一下部長，依據高教機的交機期程，總共要交18架嘛！聽說現在才交10架而已，年底沒有辦法達成目標的話，依照合約，中科院作為主約商，你們對漢翔公司是不是會罰款？"],["李院長世強：要對漢翔計罰。"],["林委員憶君：有嘛！"],["李院長世強：是的。"],["林委員憶君：這個是國防部的委託案，國防部對中科院會不會罰款呢？"],["李院長世強：也會有。"],["林委員憶君：也會有嘛！本席想請教一下，是國防部罰中科院的錢比較多？還是中科院罰漢翔的錢比較多呢？"],["李院長世強：第一個，我們罰漢翔，漢翔也會很努力的找各種理由，如果他們能夠拿到美國原廠給的不可抗力因素證明，其實按合約，我們就罰不到他們。第二個，國防部的空軍委託我們做這個案子，空軍最後會罰我們多少，我現在也不能說誰多或誰少，我真的不太清楚。"],["林委員憶君：如果是漢翔要繳的罰款比中科院多，可能代表中科院監造不利。本席現在還有一個問題，部長，前陣子漢翔不是有一個員工在IG公開ADF和AJT的敏感資料被法辦，這個案子漢翔也是因為違反合約的保密條款，被中科院罰款100萬元，中科院會不會將這筆罰款繳回國防部呢？"],["李院長世強：不會。因為我們是合約甲方，所以按照合約，他們的罰款是繳給我們。"],["林委員憶君：那就奇怪了，兩個高教機的合約，漢翔延遲交機給中科院，中科院要依照合約繳罰款給國防部嘛！對不對？但是漢翔涉及洩漏機密，中科院卻不用繳罰款給國防部，不會很奇怪嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛中科院說的應該是兩個部分，一個是中科院和漢翔的罰款，這個是他……"],["林委員憶君：對，因為洩密的部分只牽涉到中科院而已，對不對？中科院不可能再繳回國防部。"],["李院長世強：還有漢翔給我們的延遲交機罰款，也是在中科院。"],["林委員憶君：也沒有繳回國防部嗎？"],["李院長世強：是，對。但是空軍會針對我們……"],["林委員憶君：這是國防部付錢的，為什麼都不會繳回？現在更奇怪，本席先問機密外洩的部分好了，因為機密外洩，國防部是建案的受影響人耶！受害者是國防部，中科院只是間接的，結果是你們變成受益人，這樣會不會覺得怪怪的？"],["李院長世強：委員，這不是受益人的問題。因為這是我們和漢翔的合約關係，和國防部無關，國防部和我們的關係是委制，我們再把委制的內容分開，一部分是我們負責，一部分是漢翔負責，我們再和漢翔簽訂採購合約，向他們採購。所以按照合約規範的罰款，他們當然是繳給我們，而不是繳給國防部。"],["林委員憶君：反正國防部以後和中科院擬合約的時候，一定要全面考量。主席，本席再問1分鐘。部長，我們還記得兩個禮拜之前發生雷神的溢收款問題嘛！現在這305億元溢收款有退還給我們，最後會繳還國庫嘛！但這就有一些貓膩啊！這些錢是退到哪裡呢？是退到中央政府？退到國防部？退到空軍？還是退到中科院呢？"],["顧部長立雄：最後當然是繳回國庫，至於這個過程是先繳回哪一個單位，還在和美方協調，但是最後完成結匯之後，會完成繳回國庫的作業。"],["林委員憶君：所以現在還沒有協調嘛！對不對？現在還不知道嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：近期之內就會返還。"],["林委員憶君：好。本席暫時先問到這邊，看最後到底退還到哪裡，我們再……"],["顧部長立雄：最後一定是回國庫，這是確定的事情，我們和主計總處已經完成協調，只是它有一個流程，匯回來之後，最後一定是繳回國庫。"],["林委員憶君：如果是這樣的話，繳回國庫的這305億元，有沒有包含美國政府向我們收的4.4%的兩項服務費？部長有追蹤到嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：現在都是討論溢收款的部分，退回我們的款項都屬於溢收款。"],["林委員憶君：因為4.4%的行政費是13.5億元的納稅款。如果今天4.4%的行政費沒有退給我們的話，那我們要損失13.5億元，這是人民的納稅款，國防部是不敢向美國要呢？還是他們不給我們呢？這個部分要了解一下吧？"],["顧部長立雄：可以向委員報告的是，他們退給我們的款項，比他們原本初報的金額還要高。最後的金額要等實際退回來，結匯以後我們再向委員報告。"],["林委員憶君：所以有沒有包含4.4%的行政費？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。現在確定全部都是雷神公司的溢收款。"],["林委員憶君：確定沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：因為涉及多個國家，全部都是用溢收款的方式退款。現在還有媒體說什麼一次付兩筆錢，經過我們查證沒有這回事，這個可能也要闢謠一下，沒有什麼……"],["林委員憶君：好啦！國防部還是要努力啦！看看可不可以向美方爭取一下，因為這13.5億元真的滿高的。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝召委。因為剛剛有提到3個月內中科院要提出相關的經營管理報告，我們希望也把利弊得失和所有來龍去脈都提出來，好不好？因為國防預算很有限，這個工作應該怎麼運用到位，而且讓大家各司其職，如果我們覺得中科院是最好的，他們好在哪裡應該讓全體委員也知道，這樣比較好，這個部分也麻煩特別納入，謝謝。部長，沒有問題吧？謝謝。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：不好意思，我們再延長一下會議時間，先請鍾佳濱委員上台質詢，這個議題太熱門了。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},{"id":"156119","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156119","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b4afbd7b2a1fda8f0982770301154c67dce0a1e5c1d8db796c77db01c455e67005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"11:52:06 - 11:57:16","影片長度":"00:05:10","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:52:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:57:16+08:00","duration":310,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.523468750000001,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.953468750000003,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.68721875,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.931593750000001,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.015968750000003,"end":15.387218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.94784375,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.027843750000002,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.26784375,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.937843750000003,"end":30.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.16971875,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.38471875,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.767843750000004,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.657843750000005,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.01159375,"end":43.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.180343750000006,"end":56.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.95846875,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.072218750000005,"end":64.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.13909375,"end":65.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.87721875,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.49721875,"end":69.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.52659375,"end":73.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.74096875000001,"end":90.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.93659375,"end":95.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.11721875,"end":100.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.16784375,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.42034375,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.95534375000001,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.57846875000001,"end":122.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.96534375,"end":137.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.86284375,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.68034375000002,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.56034375000002,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.06221875,"end":152.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.08721875,"end":153.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.79596875000001,"end":159.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.02284375000002,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.03534375,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.93971875,"end":185.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.63346875000002,"end":200.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.99534375000002,"end":203.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.22284375,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.22971875000002,"end":214.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.25471875000002,"end":215.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.39721875,"end":222.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.49409375000002,"end":228.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.66596875000002,"end":236.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.90534375000001,"end":240.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.87096875,"end":242.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.69721875000002,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.85159375,"end":261.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.13346875,"end":272.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.11909375,"end":276.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.96659375,"end":278.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.72159375,"end":309.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.36721875,"end":305.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.28221875,"end":311.17221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":10.178,"text":"公會委員主席,我想請國發會還有衛福部衛福部,我們這個,署長"},{"start":19.291,"end":36.085,"text":"陳委員早剛剛已經聽了許多委員發表他們的意見那對我來說我也是少子化的最大受害者因為我是婦產科醫師嘛以前我們一個晚上可能起來很多次有時候兩間三間產房同時在接生"},{"start":37.006,"end":56.165,"text":"現在我們可以睡得很好但是我有看到你們又確定要再展延一年可是你們也發布了最新的人口報告請問你們有想過如果小子化已經是無可逆轉因為從你們的人口報告看起來就是這樣子你這個計畫是不是乾脆要把它常態化?"},{"start":60.171,"end":80.536,"text":"全委員你指的是人口的公佈還是人口計畫?人口的公佈你前陣子人口的公佈就代表少子化這件事情已經沒有辦法逆轉了是嗎?是的我們的確現在要逆轉很困難那的確我們的確您有我們有討論到準備"},{"start":81.636,"end":99.651,"text":"做這件事情把它變成常態化所以我們現在有在研議一個常態化的做法跟人力需求我們會抱怨來做這個事因為它必須更密集的不能兩年一次我也幫您稍微回答一下剛有一位委員問您的問題說到說因為年輕人低薪不敢結婚這是錯的"},{"start":106.201,"end":127.633,"text":"經過許許多多的調查,現在的年輕人並沒有把婚姻視為人生的一個選項。這點你同意嗎?根據我們的調查的確是,其中最大的因素當然是他沒有覺得遇到他想要結婚的對象,現在是比重最高的。That's why 發生一個事情,25到29歲的未婚率將近八成,其實9.3那30到34歲有到52.5"},{"start":131.875,"end":151.941,"text":"那最大的原因就是你講的就是他對婚姻沒有那麼強烈然後也沒有找到他合適的對象所以我們等一下討論的事情要以兩個目標為核心第一個就是願意生的人你要讓他多生嘛你要讓他生完第一個想要再生第二個想要再生第三個另外一個就是"},{"start":153.223,"end":176.799,"text":"與我們相關的人工生殖法他願意生的假使他沒有結婚你也希望可以幫助他再來對所以這兩個是我們等一下討論的重點好既然他都願意生了我們不管是用科學的方法協助他生育或者是我們鼓勵他有incentive讓他願意生完一個再多生兩個我們來看一下你現在編的預算"},{"start":179.171,"end":200.159,"text":"為什麼是越編越少呢?這個擴大育兒津貼你看113年度、114年度一般人民看到不是會覺得說我們勤領的金額變少了所以更不敢生小孩嗎?"},{"start":201.292,"end":228.369,"text":"公務員報告在對於每一個兒童的部分的補助金額是只有上升沒有下降那我們對於預算的推估是根據每一年實際上出生數的部分來推估的總額所以可能因為這樣的關係所以預算總額看起來沒有像前一個年度這麼多好那下一張我想問一下這邊你們把擴大公共化托育的補助"},{"start":229.73,"end":242.042,"text":"中央越來越少地方越來越多的原因為何?因為少子化是一個國安議題沒有道理中央是越變越少地方是越變越多啊不是應該要全國一起動起來嗎?"},{"start":246.068,"end":261.596,"text":"公文報告這個對於公共托育的部分事實上中央的部分事實上托育金額的補助也是在即使是今年也比往年也都有提高所以在金額的部分是應該是不會降低的"},{"start":262.216,"end":275.631,"text":"那特別預算的部分這邊所看到的委員指的是是對於這個去佈建公共托育場所的金額那這個部分的話是中央跟地方分別來分攤是那我講一個比較具體的建議主席一分鐘謝謝"},{"start":278.854,"end":304.086,"text":"我希望你們可以把托嬰、托育還有零托這件事都可以常態化因為這已經無可逆轉了在這邊給你看一下有58.1%的家庭都是雙薪家庭尤其是學前兒童的家庭所以目前的核心小家庭他其實是缺乏長輩同住資源所以你出去小吃攤你會看到這樣子的狀況我希望未來你可以整合教育部、衛福部"},{"start":305.467,"end":308.59,"text":"可以讓這些雙薪家庭都可以無後顧之憂好嗎?謝謝。」"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（11時52分）主席，我想請國發會還有衛福部。"],["主席：請國發會主委以及衛福部署長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛已經聽了許多委員發表他們的意見，對我來說，我也是少子化的最大受害者，因為我是婦產科醫師，以前我們一個晚上可能起來很多次，有時候兩間、三間產房同時在接生，現在我們可以睡得很好。我有看到你們又確定要再展延一年，可是你們也發布了最新的人口報告，請問你們有想過如果少子化已經是無可逆轉，因為從你們的人口報告看起來就是這樣子，你這個計畫是不是乾脆要把它常態化？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：請問委員，您指的是人口的公布還是人口計畫？"],["陳委員菁徽：人口的公布，前陣子人口的公布，就代表少子化這件事情已經沒有辦法逆轉了，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，的確現在要逆轉很困難，的確我們有討論到準備把這件事情變成常態化，所以我們現在有在研議常態化的作法跟人力需求，我們會報院來做這件事情，因為它必須更密集，不能兩年一次。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也幫您稍微回答一下剛剛有一位委員問您的問題，他說到因為年輕人低薪不敢結婚，這是錯的，經過許許多多的調查，現在的年輕人並沒有把婚姻視為人生的一個選項，這點你同意嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：根據我們的調查，的確是這樣，其中最大的因素是他沒有覺得遇到他想要結婚的對象，現在這是比重最高的。後來發生一件事情，25到29歲的未婚率為79.3%，將近八成，30到34歲達到52.5%，最大的原因就像你所講的，就是他對婚姻的慾望沒有那麼強烈，然後也沒有找到合適的對象。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們等一下討論的事情要以兩個目標為核心，第一個就是願意生的人，你要讓他多生，你要讓他生完第一個想要再生第二個、想要再生第三個。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：另外一個是與我們相關的人工生殖法，他願意生的，假使他沒有結婚，你也希望可以幫助他，這兩個是我們等一下要討論的重點。","既然他都願意生了，我們不管是用科學的方法協助他生育，或者是我們鼓勵他，有incentive讓他願意生完一個再多生兩個。我們來看一下，你現在編的預算為什麼是越編越少呢？以擴大育兒津貼為例，你看113年度和114年度，一般人民看到這樣不是會覺得請領的金額變少了，所以更不敢生小孩嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，對於每一個兒童的補助金額只有上升，沒有下降，我們對於預算的推估是根據每一年實際出生數來推估總額，可能因為這樣的關係，所以預算總額看起來沒有像前一個年度這麼多。"],["陳委員菁徽：我想問一下，擴大公共化托育的補助中央越來越少、地方越來越多的原因為何？因為少子化是一個國安議題，沒有道理中央越編越少、地方越編越多，不是應該要全國一起動起來嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，對於公共托育的部分，事實上中央托育金額的補助也是在提高，即使是今年，也比往年都有提高，所以在金額的部分應該是不會降低的。至於特別預算的部分，委員指的是對於布建公共托育場所的金額，這個部分是中央跟地方分別來分攤。"],["陳委員菁徽：我講一個比較具體的建議，請主席再給我半分鐘，謝謝。我希望你們把托嬰、托育、臨托這些事都可以常態化，因為這已經無可逆轉了，在這邊給你看一下有58.1%的家庭都是雙薪家庭，尤其是學前兒童的家庭，所以目前的核心小家庭其實是缺乏長輩同住支援，所以你去小吃攤會看到這樣子的狀況，我希望未來可以整合教育部、衛福部，讓這些雙薪家庭都可以無後顧之憂好嗎？謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員，主委請先回座。","上午到蔡易餘委員質詢完之後，我們會休息，休息到下午2點才會繼續開會。","下一位質詢請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156118","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156118","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b53ffcaba1fd551b86b4c0e929d5f577fce0a1e5c1d8db79687ea78fc2deb64d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:50:02 - 11:56:14","影片長度":"00:06:12","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:50:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:56:14+08:00","duration":372,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.00471875,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.607218750000001,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.707843750000002,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.719093750000003,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.844718750000002,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.249718750000003,"end":31.570343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.58284375,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.02971875,"end":36.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.565343750000004,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.14409375,"end":172.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.33721875,"end":236.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.12909375,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.98096875000002,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.49909375000001,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.64221875000004,"end":310.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.73346875000004,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.67846875000004,"end":366.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.12534375,"end":369.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.25159375000004,"end":370.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.31471875,"end":371.92221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.675,"end":29.303,"text":"謝謝主席我們請何部長另外也請那個經濟部經濟部還有金管會還有衛福部為什麼請四位呢因為四位就是壯世代的四大金剛四大金剛為什麼說四大金剛呢在這裡我要提一個那個檔案"},{"start":38.345,"end":58.177,"text":"為什麼說四大金剛呢?經濟部就是對於有錢有那個的但是他們有東西可以買我們要發展這個長壽經濟這也是符合現在經濟部大健康產業的一個國家政策的目標但是壯世代沒有起來你那個產業是做不起來的"},{"start":60.078,"end":76.427,"text":"經管會要做什麼呢?經管會是三分之二財富都在壯世代的身上但是大家的省吃減用那個錢沒有釋放出來變成死水經濟死水經濟導致年輕人低薪沒辦法創業所以經管會就是要把財富釋放出來"},{"start":80.589,"end":107.099,"text":"然後再來的話需要勞動力就是勞動部這很重要再來的話衛福部就是要把我們社福減壓我們社福已經8300億了這個是全面性的壯世代的一個不僅是老人他是一個全民壯起來的一個全面性的一個政策那剛才提到了一個就是說其實呢在已經半年我大概跟各部會溝通每一個部會"},{"start":108.579,"end":108.739,"text":"﹚吳春城"},{"start":124.026,"end":138.283,"text":"我看不出說這個法到底哪裡不可行這個法跟現在在做有什麼抵觸之處應該是我們在幫行政部門與法有據讓你做事情更方便為什麼做這個法"},{"start":138.723,"end":163.775,"text":"那現狀的問題會什麼?現狀來我們看一下現在那個我要謝謝那個我們卓院長因為行政院成立這個壯世代的小組是他核准的所以那陳時中政委也非常的認真一開始我們只有指定6個部會後來他自行的擴張到13個部會因為越研究越深越覺得這是全面性的問題"},{"start":164.835,"end":172.258,"text":"但是推動了3個月下來的結果也提出了64項的計畫。64項就像各位所看到的"},{"start":173.462,"end":197.83,"text":"展現出來的一個什麼狀況呢就是只能做會編因為他只能照沒錢沒人沒有什麼都沒有沒有法律依據只能按照現有的工具現有的組織編制做一些現有的狀況拿來大會編而已這樣一個大會編如果能夠解決國家臺灣未來發展的人口問題的話早就解決了啦"},{"start":198.71,"end":216.478,"text":"為什麼現在會講說我們情況人口更加惡化更加嚴重就是表示現行是不足的所以我們現在包括沒有預算我們看一下我問調查的各部會幾乎很多的預算都是編制是零"},{"start":217.538,"end":242.451,"text":"那像剛才我們那個邱委員提到的速發部你知道我們現在高齡的數位落差達到60%在臺北市就60%60歲以上的人是沒辦法有效的使用數位的所以呢這些東西大家都做有在做在做什麼的教育部、終身教育師現在在做的編到6億啦全部都在今年還增加2010、2012、2014年6億"},{"start":244.591,"end":245.252,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":259.611,"end":282.521,"text":"整個的大大小小所有的問題如果不積極地照現狀的問題能夠解決嗎?到我當中我會非常肯定經濟部跟金管會其實在他們的報告書當中他們發現這是一個大好機會發展經濟包括金融釋放財富釋放勞動力大家所看到的不是現在的眼光所看到的叫做銀髮海嘯"},{"start":283.882,"end":283.962,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":311.556,"end":335.58,"text":"現在最重要的其實各方面都到了各方面都冒這個已經普遍的這個也不是現在出來在民間已經推動了4年了各方的媒體你去Google全部都在使用關鍵在政府有沒有決心有沒有決心要帶領的台灣做轉型做翻轉需要各部會大其實大家都沒有問題不是現狀的問題就可以解決立這個法"},{"start":338.641,"end":339.141,"text":"拜託政府做改變"},{"start":368.212,"end":368.614,"text":"謝謝吳委員、謝謝次長、部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":760,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時50分）謝謝主席，我們請何部長，另外也請經濟部、金管會及衛福部。為什麼請四位呢？因為四位就是壯世代的四大金剛。為什麼說是四大金剛呢？經濟部就是要對於有錢有那個……但是他沒有東西可以買，所以我們要發展長壽經濟，這也是符合現在經濟部大健康產業的一個國家政策目標，但是壯世代沒有起來，你那個產業是做不起來的啦！","第二個，金管會要做什麼呢？三分之二的財富都在壯世代的身上，但是大家省吃儉用，那個錢沒有釋放出來，變成死水經濟，導致年輕人低薪，沒辦法創業，所以金管會就是要把財富釋放出來。再來是勞動部，我們需要勞動力，這個很重要。再來是衛福部，必須要讓我們的社福減壓，因為我們的社福已經達到8,300億了。這是一個全面性的壯世代政策，不僅是老人，而是一個全民壯起來的全面性政策。","剛才也提到其實已經半年了，我與每個部會的溝通狀況幾乎都非常好，包括這四個部會提出的報告書，大家都說已經在做了、大家都朝這個方向，我看不出這個法到底哪裡不可行？這個法與現在做的有什麼牴觸之處？應該說是我們幫忙讓行政部門於法有據、讓他們做事情更方便。為什麼要立這個法？現狀有什麼問題？我們看一下，首先要謝謝卓院長，因為行政院成立這個壯世代小組是他核准的，而且陳時中政委也非常認真，一開始我們只有指定6個部會，後來他自行擴張到13個部會，因為越研究越深、越覺得這個是全面性的問題。但是推動了3個月的結果，也提出了64項計畫，就像各位看到的，呈現出一個什麼狀況呢？就是只能做彙編，因為它沒錢、沒人，什麼都沒有，沒有法律依據，只能按照現有的工具、現有的組織編制，將一些現有的狀況拿來大彙編而已。這樣的一個大彙編，如果能夠解決臺灣未來人口發展的問題，早就解決了啦！為什麼現在說我們的人口狀況更加惡化、更加嚴重，表示現行是不足的。","現在包括沒有預算，我也調查了各部會，幾乎很多的預算編制都是0。像剛才邱委員提到的數發部，我們現在高齡的數位落差達到60%，在臺北市就有60%的60歲以上的人無法有效使用數位。大家都說已經在做，做了什麼呢？教育部終身教育司現在做的，編到6億啦！今年還增加到6億，60歲以上有600萬人，一個人一年的教育預算就只有100元臺幣啦！你做了什麼事呢？現在這樣就夠了嗎？這樣能夠改變什麼呢？衛福部也說整個社福體系失靈，整個大大小小的所有問題，如果不積極去做，現狀的問題能夠解決嗎？","但我也非常肯定經濟部與金管會，在他們的報告書中提到，他們發現這是一個大好機會發展經濟，包括金融，釋放財富、釋放勞動力。大家看到的不是現在的眼光所看到的，叫做銀髮海嘯，只想依靠政府社福的各種補貼、各種補助，這是要民間一起來、這是要全民一起來的覺醒運動，因為面臨的是天翻地覆的事情，整個人口完全地倒置。這件事情其實也不是什麼創新，日本早在三十年前就有了，我們只是跟上腳步而已，並不是全世界都沒有，我們好像是在做什麼創新的事情。","現在最重要的，其實各方面都到了，這個已經普遍被接受，並不是現在才出來，在民間已經推動4年了，你可以去google，各方的媒體全部都在使用。關鍵在於政府有沒有決心，有沒有決心要帶領臺灣轉型、翻轉，其實大家都沒有問題，不是現狀的問題就可以解決。立這個法是指出一個方向，其實是一個方向，讓大家朝著一個共同的方向，所以需要大家的努力，這個也要拜託大家，政府要引進民間的資源，因為這是太龐大的事情，必須要引進民間的資源，所以政府的做法一定要調整，全部都靠政府是無法改變的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝次長及部長。","接續請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156117","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156117","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b2a73d43f905656f56b4c0e929d5f577fce0a1e5c1d8db796b3d58fd2b68507d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"11:40:17 - 11:49:55","影片長度":"00:09:38","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:40:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:49:55+08:00","duration":578,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.06471875,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.430343750000002,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.83909375,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.51784375,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.39034375,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.01034375,"end":24.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.95534375,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.79471875,"end":27.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.75221875,"end":30.000968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.33284375,"end":40.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.21034375,"end":41.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.59409375,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.52221875,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.27721875,"end":48.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.626593750000005,"end":51.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.174093750000004,"end":56.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.51159375,"end":56.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.25346875,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.99159375000001,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.24034375000001,"end":66.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.10909375,"end":67.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.91909375,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.96971875,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.85971875,"end":72.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.23909375000001,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.97221875000001,"end":91.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.45971875000001,"end":95.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.72909375,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.65721875000001,"end":99.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.70721875000001,"end":101.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.92221875000001,"end":112.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.50846875,"end":103.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.79409375,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.96971875000001,"end":122.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.94409375000001,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.63159375000001,"end":139.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.11034375,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.11784375000002,"end":147.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.77159375000002,"end":170.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.59784375,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.63159375,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.03534375,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.03096875,"end":162.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.39784375000002,"end":163.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.44846875000002,"end":163.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.48221875000002,"end":163.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.70471875,"end":175.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.58159375000002,"end":177.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.97784375,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.07846875,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.11159375000003,"end":190.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.41471875000002,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.63659375,"end":203.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.87659375,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.81721875000002,"end":210.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.73659375000003,"end":211.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.52096875,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.96784375000001,"end":216.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.31784375,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.46534375000002,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.78596875000002,"end":218.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.86159375000003,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.71784375000001,"end":225.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.85659375,"end":228.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.70409375000003,"end":229.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.27784375000002,"end":229.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.52659375000002,"end":232.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.45034375,"end":235.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.02409375000002,"end":235.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.30221875,"end":235.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.31909375,"end":235.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.62284375000002,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.48346875000001,"end":245.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.14846875,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.10096875000002,"end":259.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.21846875,"end":259.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.68659375000004,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.76909375,"end":272.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.49034375,"end":275.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.85284375000003,"end":276.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.42221875,"end":277.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.40096875,"end":281.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.39596875,"end":283.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.02409375,"end":287.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.12534375,"end":310.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.14221875000004,"end":287.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.73284375000003,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.59846875,"end":316.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.58471875000004,"end":323.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.76096875,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.30034375,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.25346875,"end":332.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.32909375,"end":334.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.54409375,"end":336.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.55221875,"end":341.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.90159375,"end":344.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.40784375000004,"end":348.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.63471875000005,"end":374.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.08159375,"end":351.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.36721875,"end":360.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.11784375,"end":363.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.02909375,"end":363.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.14721875000004,"end":363.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.82096875,"end":378.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.70596875,"end":378.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.82409375000003,"end":379.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.46096875,"end":392.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.24846875000003,"end":405.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.25221875,"end":393.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.85846875000004,"end":402.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.36846875000003,"end":411.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.41909375,"end":405.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.46971875,"end":405.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.99284375,"end":406.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.11034375,"end":410.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.00034375,"end":421.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.95284375,"end":418.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.96971875,"end":419.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.56034375,"end":419.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.18034375,"end":436.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.40721875,"end":427.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.45784375000005,"end":427.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.72784375000003,"end":427.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.65471875000003,"end":445.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.84784375000004,"end":447.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.77534375000005,"end":451.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.48784375,"end":470.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.74221875,"end":471.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.68721875000006,"end":471.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.75471875000005,"end":471.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.78846875000005,"end":471.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.83909375,"end":482.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.27784375000005,"end":473.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.56409375000004,"end":478.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.38221875000005,"end":480.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.96846875000006,"end":481.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":482.48721875,"end":485.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.06846875,"end":499.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.26659375,"end":490.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.46346875,"end":502.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.73721875,"end":506.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.63971875000004,"end":509.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.30159375000005,"end":513.3684687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.35221875,"end":510.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.32659375000003,"end":522.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.6159687500001,"end":522.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.6328437500001,"end":527.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.68346875,"end":522.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.73409375,"end":523.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.4084687500001,"end":529.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.15096875,"end":543.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.40596875,"end":547.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":547.3884687500001,"end":547.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.4053437499999,"end":547.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":547.45596875,"end":575.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.2859687499999,"end":555.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.5178437500001,"end":556.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.25596875,"end":558.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.4609687500001,"end":570.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.13096875,"end":575.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.08846875,"end":577.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.3247187500001,"end":578.65784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.169,"end":26.072,"text":"請邱鎮軍委員質詢主席還有各位各部會的代表大家午安我今天看到抒發部有來何部長你可以坐著休息一下我們請抒發部的副署長陳副署長"},{"start":29.661,"end":50.957,"text":"陳副處長陳副處長你好我想請教你一個問題業者在網路上販賣違法的東西數法部如果知道了會怎麼處理"},{"start":61.391,"end":78.291,"text":"是指販賣違法的東西?違法的東西,對。然後跟打詐有關係的嗎?沒有。其他的你不管就對了?因為目前我們在...所以你們的業務是只放在打詐,那其他一些違法的這些網路行為你們都沒有在管?"},{"start":79.308,"end":99.477,"text":"我們根據就是說我們主管機關的部分比如說如果他是就是純電商的部分那那個部分的話我們會去查核然後會根據那個查核的結果來處理那如果說是所以不是你們在查所以你們都不會知道就對了"},{"start":100.748,"end":118.386,"text":"那你們平常在幹嘛?是主動查核嗎?因為我們數位產業署他很大的一部分是在協助這個數位產業經濟的一個發展所以呢你們只負責打詐跟其他的部分這個網路亂賣東西的你們都沒有顧問?你都不知道嗎?"},{"start":125.663,"end":147.294,"text":"因為我最近發現就是昨天的議題就是看到很多電子菸在網路上在亂賣那當然也有在賣那個依託米子的所以我想這麼嚴重的事情你們抒發部都不管嗎我們會看說那一些業務是不是屬於我們的主管的範圍所以你們的主管範圍是什麼"},{"start":147.813,"end":174.378,"text":"我們主管範圍就是有關這個數位經濟的部分比如說是數位服務或者是不是我們因為每一個因為這個實體的世界是實體的世界其實比虛擬的世界就是虛擬的世界其實是比較大的所以每一個部位他都有自己主管的一個業務因為你這樣講就速發部給人的感覺就很幽靈"},{"start":175.618,"end":196.972,"text":"好像什麼事情都跟你們有關係但是你們表現出來的就像現在這樣子什麼事都跟你們沒關係其實我們會幫助各部會來處理一些事情包含我們自己有的一些業務我覺得你們速發部真的要檢討那今天你們的報告行政院因應超高齡社會提出的對策整合了15個部會112年到115年就投入1200億的這個經費你們速發部佔多少經費"},{"start":204.872,"end":230.145,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":230.658,"end":245.151,"text":"你什麼都不知道,那你來幹嘛?樂齡好幫手累積瀏覽次數有7萬4千多次那每篇點進去的點擊次數大部分都是個位數這是什麼原因?"},{"start":247.179,"end":274.399,"text":"因為我們是10月下旬的時候我們才上線的所以我們目前就是還在推廣你們當初設計這個網頁的時候是給誰使用的?預計是要給誰使用?給幾歲的人使用?這個部分我們本來預計是給65歲以上但是後來就是說院裡面有協商所以我們現在是他的照顧者也是可以所以呢通常50歲以上的也是OK的也就是壯世代就對了是"},{"start":277.452,"end":280.899,"text":"好那我們回歸到今天的主題我們請何部長謝謝"},{"start":287.159,"end":316.278,"text":"我們審查這個《壯世代產業政策與產業發展促進法草案》我想最上位的政策綱領應該是高齡社會白筆書並制定因應超高齡社會對策方案在112年到115年共有15個部會投入1200億元營造友善的高齡社會那勞動部在108年底也公布了中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法"},{"start":317.659,"end":331.688,"text":"今天這一部法我們渴望進一步落實這個壯世代產業創生那我看了各部會的報告幾乎都沒有回應這部法都在自己講自己的工作你覺得問題在哪裡"},{"start":333.55,"end":347.879,"text":"委員我們事實上現在都已經在做了我有看到你們是在研議叫做壯世代社會參與促進方案對 這就是行政院的態度是要提方案而不是要提這個促進法就對了"},{"start":348.78,"end":377.859,"text":"是的 我們對第一個我們贊成壯世代的這樣一個反年齡歧視的概念這個我們絕對支持可是要上綱為法律就值得商榷所以比較保留那我們現在是用行政院因應超高壓力社會對策方案由陳時中政委主持由勞動部來統籌整理所以這個方案未來是我們促進法的這個配套還是政院版的替代方案"},{"start":378.937,"end":379.662,"text":"就是不立法就對了"},{"start":380.809,"end":409.257,"text":"我們比較不傾向用立法來處理我們用行政院的這樣的行政指導的因應方案來處理這樣子因為而且我們行政院本來是院長我們都提出這個提案了啦我們大家都提案了我覺得很多委員都有在連署那我覺得這兩者是相輔相成的我希望行政院以及各部會團隊應該認真的嚴肅看待這部法的制定提出可行的對策方案盡快讓大家都能夠滿意"},{"start":412.638,"end":426.481,"text":"最近我們看到勞動及職業安全衛生研究所做的一份報告表示我國實施近鄰排碳政策將衝擊我國高耗能產業的衝擊電子業所當其衝估計明年就會有一萬人失業這是你們講的對不對"},{"start":436.941,"end":450.804,"text":"委員這個我要澄清他有一個前提是在沒有做任何因應措施的狀況下才會產生這樣的數字那你這些數字怎麼如果說沒有提一些因應措施的話那你們這些數字怎麼來的"},{"start":452.031,"end":455.354,"text":"對,就是說這是一模型,它的模型的參數它設計就是相當單純就是說你這一個淨零碳排的這樣的政策下來可能產生的對企業增加的成本會導致它可能會解雇人或者是裁員官場等等這些啦可是呢"},{"start":472.073,"end":475.437,"text":"這是勞動部的態度,對不對?你們是擔心,你們站在勞工的立場來看這件事情,對吧?那我想請問一下經濟部,經濟部對於這個部分,你們是怎麼看?"},{"start":489.144,"end":489.945,"text":"所以你現在是跟勞動部是一國的嗎?"},{"start":509.583,"end":527.758,"text":"我沒有平台因為在勞動部的報告裡面有一點很重要就是說其實89%的人力是不受到影響的對啦所以你們是經濟部是站在產業跟我們的勞工站在一起嘛對不對那現在要"},{"start":530.701,"end":532.924,"text":"我們有發現這個問題但是我們有去做一些配套措施"},{"start":547.741,"end":574.802,"text":"我當然知道我也希望你們站在各自己的立場來為你自己的部會所負責的業務來捍衛該捍衛勞工的該捍衛產業的我們當然就一定要做好你的本分那麼當然我希望你們三個部會就是勞動部還有我們經濟部還有我們環境部能夠好好的做三方的協調好不好讓這件事情能夠盡快的來把它完整好不好謝謝"},{"start":577.475,"end":577.981,"text":"好謝謝教育委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時40分）主席、各部會的代表，大家午安。我今天看到數發部有來，何部長也可以坐著休息一下，我們請數發部的陳副署長。"],["主席：好，請陳副署長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：陳副署長，你好。我想請教你一個問題，就是業者在網路上販賣違法的東西，數發部如果知道了會怎麼處理？"],["陳副署長慧敏：販賣違法的東西，跟打詐有關係的嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有。其他的你不管就對了。"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為目前我們在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們的業務是只放在打詐，那其他一些違法的網路行為，你們都沒有在管？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們根據我們主管機關的部分，比如說，如果是純電商的部分，那個部分我們會去查核，然後會根據那個查核的結果來處理，那如果說是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以不是你們在查，你們都不會知道就對了？那你們平常在幹嘛？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是指主動查核嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為我們數位產業署很大的一部分是在協助數位產業經濟的發展，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們只負責打詐跟其他的部分，網路亂賣東西的，你們都沒有過問？你們都不知道嗎？因為我最近發現，就是昨天的議題，就是看到很多電子煙在網路上亂賣，那當然也有在賣那個依托咪酯的，所以我想這麼嚴重的事情，你們數發部都不管嗎？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們會看那一些業務是不是屬於我們主管的範圍。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們的主管範圍是什麼？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們主管的範圍就是有關數位經濟的部分，比如說是數位服務或……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個部分就不關數發部的事？"],["陳副署長慧敏：不是，因為實體的世界是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這不是實體世界啊！"],["陳副署長慧敏：實體的世界和虛擬的世界相比，虛擬的世界其實是比較大的，所以每一個部會都有自己主管的業務。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這樣講，數發部給人的感覺就很幽靈，好像什麼事情都跟你們有關係，但是你們表現出來的就像現在這樣子，什麼事都跟你們沒關係。"],["陳副署長慧敏：其實我們會幫助各部會來處理一些事情，包含我們自己有的一些業務。"],["邱委員鎮軍：時間不是很多，不要講了啦！我覺得你們數發部真的要檢討。今天你們來報告，行政院因應超高齡社會提出對策，整合了15個部會，112年到115年就投入1,200億的經費，你們數發部占多少經費？占了多少經費？"],["陳副署長慧敏：抱歉，這個不是我主管的部分，我回去查，再提供給……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你怎麼什麼都不知道？那你今天來幹嘛呢？"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為隔壁還有一場，所以不好意思……"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼叫做隔壁還有一場？"],["陳副署長慧敏：我們在交通委員會還有一場。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你什麼都不知道，那你來幹什麼？"],["陳副署長慧敏：抱歉抱歉，因為我針對的部分是有關……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我上去有看到一個叫做「樂齡好幫手」，這跟你們有關係吧？"],["陳副署長慧敏：有關。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊。你什麼都不知道，那你來幹嘛？"],["陳副署長慧敏：樂齡好幫手的部分是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到樂齡好幫手，累積瀏覽次數有七萬四千多次，每篇點進去的點擊次數大部分都是個位數，這是什麼原因？"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為是10月下旬的時候才上線的，所以目前還在推廣期間。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們當初設計這個網頁的時候，是給誰使用的？預計是要給誰使用？給幾歲的人使用？"],["陳副署長慧敏：這個部分，我們本來預計是給65歲以上的，但是後來院裡面有協商，所以我們現在是他的照顧者也是可以使用，所以通常50歲以上的也是OK的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是壯世代就對了？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我們回歸到今天的主題，我們請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們審查壯世代產業政策與產業發展促進法草案，我想最上位的政策綱領應該是高齡社會白皮書，並制訂因應超高齡社會對策方案，在112年到115年，共有15個部會，投入1,200億元，營造友善的高齡社會。勞動部在108年底也公布了中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法，今天這一部法，我們可望進一步落實壯世代產業創生。我看了各部會的報告，幾乎都沒有回應這部法，都在自己講自己的工作，你覺得問題在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們事實上現在都已經在做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我有看到你們是在研議壯世代社會參與促進方案。"],["何部長佩珊：對，這就是行政院……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以行政院現在的態度是要提方案，而不是要提這個促進法就對了？"],["何部長佩珊：是的。第一個，我們贊成壯世代這一個反年齡歧視的概念，這個我們絕對支持，可是要上綱為法律就值得商榷，所以比較保留，那我們現在是用行政院因應超高齡社會對策方案，由陳時中政委主持，由勞動部來統籌整理，有15個部會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個方案未來是促進法的配套，還是政院版的替代方案？就是不立法就對了？"],["何部長佩珊：我們比較不傾向用立法來處理，我們用行政院這樣的行政指導的因應方案來處理。而且我們行政院本來是院長擔任社會福利委員會召集人。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們都提出這個提案了，我們大家都提案了，很多委員都有在連署，那我覺得這兩者是相輔相成的，我希望行政院以及各部會團隊應該認真地嚴肅看待這部法的制定，提出可行的對策方案，儘快讓大家都能夠滿意，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是，好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們看到勞動及職業安全衛生研究所做的一份報告，表示我國實施淨零排碳政策，將衝擊我國高耗能產業，電子業首當其衝，估計明年就會有一萬人失業，這是你們講的嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個我要澄清，有一個前提，是在沒有做任何因應措施的狀況下，才會產生這樣的數字。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們已經有……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你這些數字是什麼？如果沒有提一些因應措施的話，你們這些數字怎麼來的？"],["何部長佩珊：就是說，這是模型，它的模型的參數設計就是相當單純，就是說淨零碳排這樣的政策下來，可能產生對企業增加的成本，會導致它可能會解僱人，或者是裁員、關廠等等。可是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是勞動部的態度嘛，對不對？你們站在勞工的立場來看這件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：是是是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我想請問一下經濟部，經濟部對於這個部分，你們是怎麼看？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，這份報告我有稍微進去看，它用CGE模型去跑，那其實我們在做這樣的模型的時候，應該還有另外一個配套措施，為什麼我們在前五、六年就是在做這種淨零的輔導？目的就是要去提升在職員工的一些在職技能。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們現在跟勞動部是一國的，看法是一樣的？"],["連次長錦漳：我們有平台，因為在勞動部的報告裡面，有一點很重要，就是說其實89%的人力是不受到影響的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，所以你們經濟部是站在產業，跟我們的勞工站在一起嘛？"],["連次長錦漳：對，我們現在跟勞動部有個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在我覺得我們的環境部是很努力地往前衝，那你們的方向跟環境部有一樣嗎？有一致嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：我們有發現這個問題，但是我們有去做一些配套措施、加強措施。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我當然知道，我也希望你們站在自己的立場，來為你自己的部會負責的業務來捍衛。"],["連次長錦漳：會，會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：該捍衛勞工的，該捍衛產業的，當然一定要做好你的本分。那麼當然我希望你們三個部會，就是勞動部、經濟部和環境部，能夠好好地做三方的協調，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：讓這件事情能夠儘快地來把它完整，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長、次長及署長。","接續請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156116","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156116","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b756ed803add21f4cab8b279c62a4e0dcce0a1e5c1d8db79674d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:32:14 - 11:51:30","影片長度":"00:19:16","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:32:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:51:30+08:00","duration":1156,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.7522187500000002,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.650343750000001,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.56471875,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.079093750000002,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.17534375,"end":21.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.12346875,"end":48.040343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.54659375,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.55409375,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.44346875,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.77346875,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.10596875,"end":113.95409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.27471875,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.65409375,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.15159375,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.02909375,"end":122.79659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.47159375000001,"end":129.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.95159375,"end":138.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.65909375,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.91409375,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.25971875000002,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.59096875,"end":171.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.07159375,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.14659375000002,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.40159375000002,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.84034375000002,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.29971875,"end":200.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.91096875000002,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.67034375,"end":204.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.72471875000002,"end":207.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.04034375,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.71909375,"end":213.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.30971875,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.91284375,"end":217.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.10659375,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.40596875000003,"end":219.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.29971875,"end":226.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.64534375000002,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.87284375000002,"end":229.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.93596875,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.07909375000003,"end":234.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.66471875000002,"end":240.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.79909375000003,"end":244.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.66784375,"end":246.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.69284375,"end":248.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.65034375000002,"end":250.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.94534375,"end":251.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.62034375000002,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.67471875,"end":257.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.04971875,"end":260.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.85096875,"end":264.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.72846875,"end":271.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.13659375000003,"end":277.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.33784375,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.72096875,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.98659375,"end":284.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.81346875,"end":286.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.37846875,"end":287.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.39534375,"end":289.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.09534375000004,"end":290.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.34409375,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.97659375,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.15784375000004,"end":300.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.54096875000005,"end":304.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.57471875000005,"end":301.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.82346875,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.84409375,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.48096875000005,"end":308.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.56096875000003,"end":328.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.22721875,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.57221875000005,"end":317.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.03034375000004,"end":328.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.90784375000004,"end":329.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.48159375,"end":332.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.36721875,"end":344.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.63096875,"end":357.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.76159375000003,"end":348.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.03971875,"end":349.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.98346875000004,"end":358.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.16471875,"end":360.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.56096875000003,"end":362.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.55659375000005,"end":363.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.61971875,"end":368.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.58096875,"end":373.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.21721875000003,"end":380.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.32596875,"end":380.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.39346875,"end":380.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.41034375000004,"end":380.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.78159375,"end":380.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.96721875000003,"end":389.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.74221875,"end":399.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.23846875000004,"end":401.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.49971875,"end":403.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.61346875000004,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.02659375,"end":406.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.05596875000003,"end":419.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.67846875000004,"end":428.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.41971875,"end":459.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.22909375,"end":461.98409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.36784375,"end":491.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.15659375,"end":496.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.06721875000005,"end":499.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.44659375000003,"end":499.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.56034375,"end":501.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.60659375000006,"end":503.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.08721875000003,"end":509.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.55471875,"end":510.04409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.09034375000005,"end":512.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.44034375,"end":512.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.7859687499999,"end":518.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.49846875,"end":520.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.9622187500001,"end":522.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4765937500001,"end":528.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.3447187500001,"end":530.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.6653437500001,"end":534.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.18784375,"end":543.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.8447187500001,"end":546.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.2747187500001,"end":549.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.08846875,"end":553.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.93596875,"end":556.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.7709687500001,"end":591.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.3840937500001,"end":575.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.19596875,"end":608.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.6740937500001,"end":612.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.81284375,"end":613.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.4709687500001,"end":614.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.92221875,"end":621.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.3134687500001,"end":623.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.68034375,"end":625.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.21159375,"end":626.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.3928437500001,"end":635.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.43784375,"end":647.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.43596875,"end":660.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.8559687500001,"end":661.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.2397187500001,"end":663.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.3997187500001,"end":666.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.52159375,"end":669.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.1540937500001,"end":671.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.5209687500001,"end":673.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.28846875,"end":677.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.4565937500001,"end":681.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.86534375,"end":685.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.81409375,"end":686.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.8940937500001,"end":692.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.8172187499999,"end":696.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.2890937500001,"end":699.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.19159375,"end":700.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.3390937500001,"end":704.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.3047187500001,"end":707.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.30409375,"end":715.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.2778437500001,"end":724.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.04846875,"end":733.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.4309687500001,"end":736.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.47284375,"end":737.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.27846875,"end":747.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.4540937500001,"end":749.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.9053437500002,"end":750.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":751.06971875,"end":756.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.7478437500001,"end":758.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.83221875,"end":758.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.8490937500001,"end":758.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.96721875,"end":763.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.28284375,"end":765.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.1897187500001,"end":770.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.89784375,"end":772.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.70346875,"end":772.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.75409375,"end":772.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.83846875,"end":772.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.85534375,"end":773.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":773.02409375,"end":774.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.36971875,"end":810.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":793.96596875,"end":794.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":810.7903437500001,"end":817.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":818.18159375,"end":822.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":822.24846875,"end":824.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.2353437500001,"end":830.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.39471875,"end":833.7234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.2803437500002,"end":846.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.29096875,"end":847.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":848.4722187500001,"end":852.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.2647187500002,"end":857.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":858.3103437500001,"end":858.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.74471875,"end":864.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":864.7734687500001,"end":865.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":865.8872187500001,"end":871.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.5359687500002,"end":874.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.4765937500001,"end":879.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":879.9778437500001,"end":886.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":886.7278437500001,"end":892.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":893.4272187500001,"end":896.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":896.78534375,"end":897.0047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":897.0047187500002,"end":906.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":900.0759687500001,"end":900.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.4765937500001,"end":901.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":903.3328437500002,"end":903.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":906.8090937500001,"end":915.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":916.32659375,"end":928.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.93221875,"end":930.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":930.4172187500001,"end":931.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.1509687500002,"end":934.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":935.0578437500001,"end":936.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":937.4878437500001,"end":938.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":938.6015937500001,"end":939.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":940.4072187500001,"end":954.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":955.2065937500001,"end":980.1140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":980.7722187500001,"end":982.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":983.7590937500001,"end":987.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":987.9778437500001,"end":991.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":991.9097187500001,"end":1000.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1001.1572187500001,"end":1005.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1005.76409375,"end":1006.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1007.58659375,"end":1008.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1009.10534375,"end":1010.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1011.5522187500001,"end":1012.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1012.9697187500001,"end":1014.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1015.0790937500001,"end":1021.3228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1021.81221875,"end":1025.7103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1025.9297187500001,"end":1028.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1028.6128437500001,"end":1031.8697187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1032.64596875,"end":1044.8465937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1045.13346875,"end":1047.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1047.9347187500002,"end":1048.4915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1048.7278437500001,"end":1067.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1068.67409375,"end":1072.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1072.6565937500002,"end":1078.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1078.6978437500002,"end":1098.4247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1099.04909375,"end":1126.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1127.28096875,"end":1128.9347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1129.5928437500002,"end":1135.3640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1135.83659375,"end":1144.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1144.2065937500001,"end":1150.4503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1150.75409375,"end":1152.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1153.4034687500002,"end":1155.6309687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.769,"end":14.004,"text":"好 謝謝我們麻煩行總長黃次長還有黃富密我也好"},{"start":16.389,"end":34.107,"text":"我先請教那個新總長好了總長你好總長上一次你也有參加那個林育雄老師他所對於那個違法偵查救濟的研討會這個上面這邊還有照片是"},{"start":35.569,"end":52.588,"text":"所以說其實從學界的角度來看他們也是認為說在執行偵查的時候我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽那讓這個被調查者也能夠將來進行公平的審判我想這個應該是非常認同"},{"start":55.205,"end":81.193,"text":"其實就是說國家因為他長有非常多的偵查武器那我們身為民意代表我們當然就會稍微看一下這個國家他長有這些偵查武器偵查資源的時候他有沒有使用過度去侵害到人權或者是說我們希望說人民能夠受到公平的審判那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為反而導致到人權受到侵害"},{"start":82.174,"end":101.412,"text":"我非常認同是好謝謝總長總長剛剛講了一個東西其實我可以認同總長剛剛跟很多委員所說的一個部分就是有很多委員所提到的說最近這個偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決那總長當然是說因為歷次的修法造成"},{"start":102.113,"end":102.133,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":123.513,"end":138.103,"text":"越來越嚴重那甚至你看最近有週刊他就是逐週在報導那這些東西當然部長歷次來他是說他這些人報的不一定是事實可能自己猜的但是在起訴之後"},{"start":138.763,"end":156.22,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":157.041,"end":168.248,"text":"剛剛我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足但是配套不足是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院開始就配套的部分要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞"},{"start":169.659,"end":195.569,"text":"否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開那我們也不能說因為配套不足所以我無能為力或者是說像部長來是說因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了有院方的有檢方的有司法警察甚至有律師有當事人所以我沒辦法我覺得可能我們"},{"start":197.332,"end":207.729,"text":"那個公部門不能這樣回答嘛那我想請教一下總長有沒有一個思考就是說將來怎麼樣跟請部裡面跟司法院能夠協調這件事情"},{"start":211.363,"end":234.05,"text":"每個案件的類型不一樣每個案件的形態主客觀條件都不一樣所以如果說有違反偵查不公開的話他所呈現的態樣跟面貌途徑也都各有不同但不管怎麼樣檢察官竟然是偵查的主體最起碼我們檢察官自己"},{"start":235.014,"end":260.119,"text":"一定要堅守這個偵查不公開所以在每一個專案會議的時候我在前面一定跟檢察官講這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職也是我們檢察官的道德那因此我再講回來剛剛前面的因為每個案件它的形態有的先天比如說被害人很多被害人很多參與的人很多那保密當然就比較困難啊有的人這種很縝密的案件比如說"},{"start":264.7,"end":285.945,"text":"總統我們兩個都是專業的我也幹了20年檢察官所以我們不要去講那些場面話我們直接切重點這裡面喔就回到問題的重點因為形態各有不同你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法因此喔最重要的我們檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候我們要把這個正常不公開這個規定我們要遵守"},{"start":287.898,"end":305.649,"text":"總統因為這樣還是沒有回答到回答到那這樣變成說是無解嘛我們報告這是個供需的問題啦只能盡量啦只能盡量不可能啦完全都沒有所以我們對於政法不公開官方的想法就是盡量喔這樣不太好吧"},{"start":307.233,"end":327.763,"text":"總統,如果你說一定會做到,事實上是做不到的。我理解。不然就跟美國一樣,檢察官就不要來偵辦案件。完全公開,那也是個方式。如果做到偵查完全不公開,在我們台灣現在的體制裡面,你要完全做到,因為太多的變數,那是不可能的。所以你這樣答應說不做到,事實上做不到。"},{"start":329.537,"end":358.222,"text":"沒關係啊那總長因為我沒有問到我要的我就說啦就是說總長因為我們都是內行人其實回答我的話我們就直接切重點講那個該講的啊其實場面化我覺得不需要你說跟我還是這樣希望啦所以我在此希望事實上就是這樣子好那就是無解只能盡量嘛所以我在這邊還是蠻希望的啦總長因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛那"},{"start":359.172,"end":373.695,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":374.281,"end":401.592,"text":"那個地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分然後這麻煩總長能夠能夠做到如果說讓民眾認為說我們都沒有沒有做到違反不偵查不公開的話事實上就在摧毀摧毀司法的威信了其實我們看都非常痛心了當然了現在洩漏出來到底是不是偵查內容有沒有真有沒有假那這就不一定因此我要跟委員報告這裡面喔很多簽到案件的偵辦的性質裡面有一些東西最後還是"},{"start":402.552,"end":403.713,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等19人擬具"},{"start":428.404,"end":447.483,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":447.603,"end":461.799,"text":"因為吳宗憲本人說對我就是被扣那麼多錢啊所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道他根本當隔天新聞一出來他就說我就是扣那麼多錢為什麼外界會知道所以我還是這樣子希望啦"},{"start":463.407,"end":490.976,"text":"就中長你剛剛說的因為多次違反偵查不公開對司法的違信傷害很重對執政黨也傷害很重因為有人就開始穿槽附會說是賴政府下令要幹這個事啊我是不相信啦但是很多民眾會信嘛有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題所以對政府也不好對檢查體系也不好我在意的是這個點所以跟部長說明這個部分那一樣我還是蠻希望的啦就是說外界現在誤認說我們"},{"start":494.118,"end":511.774,"text":"外界誤認說正義是向政治力傾斜所以要麻煩一定要注意這個而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來像我們民意代表我們要監督政府不是護航政府司法也不是護航政府所以我們還是希望說"},{"start":514.824,"end":528.109,"text":"大家和就緝司法人員一定要注意到這個部分好謝謝那我再問一下那個那個司法院齁司法院我想請問一下法官檢察官齁如果違法裝GPS調查人民現行法人民可不可以就緝"},{"start":531.44,"end":553.081,"text":"違法裝GPS調查人民那現行法有沒有辦法救濟他如果說法案檢察官的話那那依照我們的那個那那個153現在153之10嘛153之10嘛就是可以可以救濟可以救濟那請問一下如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權自己去裝那有沒有辦法救濟"},{"start":554.011,"end":576.01,"text":"委員報告那一開始我們的書面報告就有寫我們是我們原來的草案是說以成集化的方式規劃所以他依照後面的話可能在本案裡面依照刑訴158之4那麼證據排除那假設他本身有故意過失故意過失那造成人民的這個隱私受不害的話那麼有國家賠償那行政責任更不必講"},{"start":576.61,"end":585.597,"text":"所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身的處分的合法性所以我們的事務委員會說到底是要在前階段就說一個違法宣告還是說到後階段真正時機就記的時候那邊去做判斷這是一個政策的問題"},{"start":591.621,"end":592.902,"text":"但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法我認為說"},{"start":613.604,"end":635.651,"text":"如果說司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話可以用什麼就是他直接去提告國賠或個資就可以的話那法官檢察官也可以啊為什麼法官檢察官有一個救濟方式結果那個司法警察卻沒有那這個會導致什麼問題因為我們實務界說我們很清楚"},{"start":636.912,"end":647.465,"text":"會導致警察不敢做事就像醫生的那個預防性醫療一樣很多事我就不幹了嘛然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況修法前我們都很清楚"},{"start":648.439,"end":669.65,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":670.162,"end":695.247,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":695.347,"end":695.767,"text":"總長還有黃次長我想請問一下"},{"start":709.346,"end":737.129,"text":"因為總長因為這一次憲判確實有點名有五個死刑犯要非常上訴啦那我想你一定很清楚就是盧倫勒署唯一死刑那兩位以及有三位他認為說有精神障礙譬如說林于儒那三位被告那我我現在就發現一個問題就是說林于儒這個案子為例好了當時其實是判決三審定驗死刑的的那個被告那結果呢"},{"start":738.328,"end":762.94,"text":"被認定說他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗只有57然後就認為說他沒有受審的能力那我想請問一下這個總長你認同說這個精神障礙的問題可以用單一個智力測驗就做認定嗎這個因為我們不是專家不過就是依照這種一般的常識當然這個"},{"start":766.246,"end":766.907,"text":"我跟總統報告一下"},{"start":775.424,"end":805.064,"text":"我之前有提過一個智商五十七的人要把自己演成一百一的很難但是一個智商一百一的要演成自己只有五十七非常簡單我智商每一題我都故意寫錯那你就剩下五十七所以依照我國刑法十九條其實以行為史我們只看行為史的精神動畫並沒有救審或受刑這段時間精神狀況所以我不懂為什麼但我不懂這跟總長也無關大法官這次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的這個"},{"start":806.084,"end":833.163,"text":"此外,他們之前在普通法案審理的時候法官也多次說這個他不踩他的律師提過很多次但法官說不踩就這次竟然被大法官們認為說這個很重要匪夷所思啦匪夷所思真的因為這樣的話以後我們所有的被告我只要到審理的時候我就主張我要做智力測驗"},{"start":834.344,"end":834.364,"text":"議員鍾佳濱"},{"start":859.775,"end":870.563,"text":"我們最近一直在提的幾件事情要麻煩總長注意一下我不再去提別的我想說就提幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下"},{"start":872.717,"end":892.409,"text":"為什麼我一直最近我一直強調說非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題我一直點出這個但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點這個問題出來因為這非常的嚴重我想請教總長當被告如果非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候他們是不是用無罪推定"},{"start":893.922,"end":914.456,"text":"這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定?如果法院撤銷的話當然就回歸到無罪推定是一定回歸到無罪推定這就是我國的法制所以我們將來可能會遇到的問題是我說第一個法官可能不押因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了嘛因為我國積壓積壓就只有101跟101之一"},{"start":916.597,"end":936.565,"text":"那將來回歸到普通法院之後申請如果說你們要建議法官羈押我想請教總長你們當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候要用哪一條建議因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押他符合哪一個101是只有逃亡滅政"},{"start":937.557,"end":953.485,"text":"一零二一零一之一反覆實施還裡面關了二十幾年我怎麼認定要反覆實施所以跟總黨報告第一個點這三十七個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法案審理就有可能法官不採不採押"},{"start":955.693,"end":982.225,"text":"總部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧問題我就說那萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦或者是因為他很有智慧我國又是成文法國家所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定不押怎麼辦因為總長您的非常上述讓這37個刑事案裡面部分人回歸普通法案審理的時候回歸那一天他就回家了啊這很恐怖欸好那第二個"},{"start":983.786,"end":1010.163,"text":"我們剛剛就是那個羅志強委員有提到激壓的期限回歸到二審的話剩下15個月那15個月你又還要做精神鑑定又還要開庭又還要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完那過了15個月一到就只能放人沒有第二條路這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性第三個可能性"},{"start":1011.561,"end":1032.483,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":1032.683,"end":1047.31,"text":"那假設他在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛那怎麼辦你又沒有駁回的理由那萬一你要讓他假設嗎這是一個第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期"},{"start":1048.03,"end":1066.929,"text":"因為死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折禮刑期是以前是這樣規定沒有錯而且以前也沒毛病因為你都要槍決了還折禮什麼刑期啊所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折禮刑期的問題但是我跟你百分之百保證會有一群人權團體出來說"},{"start":1068.695,"end":1098.695,"text":" ﹏"},{"start":1099.275,"end":1125.791,"text":"黃次長拜託總長拜託副秘一定要解決這個問題否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師我隨便就打趴隨便就打趴法官讓法官能夠把這些人放出來我可以舉一大堆理由一大堆裁定的潛力一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押這些人必須放出去這是我一直煩惱的事我真的不是在找官員的麻煩我今天點出這是我我20年實務經驗"},{"start":1127.392,"end":1127.672,"text":"委員的正義感我們會審慎處理"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時32分）謝謝。我們麻煩刑總長、黃次長和黃副秘。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我先請教刑總長好了。總長你好。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員你好。"],["吳委員宗憲：總長，上一次你也有參加林鈺雄老師的關於違法偵查救濟的研討會，這邊還有照片。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以說，其實從學界的角度來看，他們也是認為說，在執行偵查的時候，我們也是同時要保障被調查人的名譽，讓這個被調查者將來也能夠進行公平的審判。我想這個你應該非常認同。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那其實就是說，國家因為它掌有非常多的偵查武器，那我們身為民意代表，我們當然就會稍微看一下國家掌有這些偵查武器、偵查資源的時候，有沒有使用過度，去侵害到人權。或者是說，我們希望人民能夠受到公平的審判，那會不會因為某些偵查人員的作為，反而導致人權受到侵害？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：對，我非常認同。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，好，謝謝總長。","總長剛剛講的一個東西，其實我可以認同總長跟很多委員所說的一個部分，就是有很多委員提到，最近偵查不公開的問題一直無法解決，那總長當然是說，因為歷次的修法造成偵查不公開在執行上面會越來越困難，例如說，羈押律師可以閱卷，這也是洩出一些偵查秘密的管道，這個我都經歷過，我可以認同，但是現在有一個問題，就是說，因為最近這幾年偵查期間資料外洩的狀況越來越嚴重，你看最近有週刊就是逐週在報導，這些東西當然部長歷次都說這些人爆的不一定是事實，可能自己猜的，但是在起訴之後，相關的卷證資料曝光，我們就知道這些東西是不是真的。你再回過頭去看，之前有幾個案子已經起訴，結果資料外洩出來，譬如說，林姿妙的案子，搜索現場的照片在搜索完就流出來，像這個，我覺得這些都是不應該啦。","我說我認同剛剛總長所說的配套不足，但是配套不足，是不是要想辦法找主責的司法院，開始就配套的部分，要來想辦法看怎麼去補這個洞？否則我們一直在喊偵查不公開，但是客觀的事實上面就是偵查大公開，那我們也不能說因為配套不足，所以無能為力，或者是說，像部長來，他是說，因為會接觸到這些資料的人太多了，有院方的、有檢方的、有司法警察，甚至有律師、有當事人，所以沒辦法。我覺得公部門不能這樣回答嘛。那我想請教一下，總長，有沒有一個思考，將來怎麼樣請部裡面跟司法院協調這件事情？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：每個案件的類型不一樣，每個案件的型態、主客觀條件都不一樣，如果說有違反偵查不公開的話，它所呈現的態樣、面貌、途徑也都各有不同。但不管怎麼樣，檢察官既然是偵查的主體，最起碼我們檢察官自己一定要堅守偵查不公開，所以在每一個專案會議的時候，我在前面一定跟檢察官講，偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天職，也是我們檢察官的道德。我再講回來剛剛前面的，因為每個案件的型態不一樣，比如說，有的案件被害人很多，參與的人很多，那保密當然就比較困難。有的是很縝密的案件，比如說，國安的案件會比較少人知道，洩密的管道就比較少……"],["吳委員宗憲：總長，我們兩個都是專業的，我也幹了二十年檢察官，所以我們不要去講那些場面話，我們直接切重點。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：所以我跟委員報告，這裡面就回到問題的重點了，因為型態各有不同，你很難找到一個一以貫之的方法，因此最重要的，檢察官最起碼我們自己在偵辦案件的時候，偵查不公開這個規定我們要遵守。"],["吳委員宗憲：總長，你現在還是沒有回答到，那這樣就變成是無解嘛。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：跟委員報告，這是一個供需的問題啦，只能儘量啦，只能儘量，不可能完全都沒有，這不可能，要不然就跟美國一樣……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以對於偵查不公開，官方的想法就是儘量喔？這樣不太好吧？總長，我絕對不會……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：如果你講說一定會做到，事實上是做不到。"],["吳委員宗憲：我理解。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：要不然就跟美國一樣，那檢察官就不要來偵辦案件，完全公開，那也是一個方式，如果要做到偵查完全不公開，在我們臺灣現在的體制裡面，要完全做到，因為太多的變數，那是不可能的啦！所以你答應說要做到，事實上他做不到。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係啦。總長，因為我沒有問到我要的，總長，我們都是內行人，回答我的話，我們就直接切重點，講該講的，場面話我覺得不需要，我還是這樣希望，我在此希望……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我要說那不是場面話，事實上就是這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那就是無解，只能儘量嘛！所以我在這邊還是滿希望的啦。總長，因為你是全國檢察官的最高指揮官嘛，還是要麻煩你能夠跟檢察官講，拜託他們要嚴守偵查不公開，檢察官在每個案子就是偵查主體的指揮官，他也要去要求他所帶的一些司法警察及地檢署裡面的每一個人都要嚴守這個部分，麻煩總長能夠做到。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：等一下，如果說讓民眾認為我們都沒有做到，就違反偵查不公開的話，事實上就在摧毀司法的威信，其實我們看到都非常痛心。當然現在洩露出來的到底是不是偵查內容，有沒有真，有沒有假，這就不一定。因此我要跟委員報告，這裡面很多牽涉到案件偵辦的性質，有些東西最後還是我們檢察官要儘量在我們自己能夠掌控的部分掌控。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，我知道很多資料現在洩出來的一定有很多是以訛傳訛的假東西，這個我們都能夠理解，但是我今天就有講，我沒有下定論，最近鬧得那麼轟轟烈烈的事，我沒有下過定論，我只說起訴以後，如果我們從卷證資料來看，這些記者爆出來的資料，如果確實是卷證資料裡面有，而且本來就不應該流出去的，那又是另外一個問題。剛剛我有說到，我是就之前有幾件已經起訴的案子，或者是為什麼楊文科被搜索完隔沒有多久，連他家裡扣掉多少錢，記者都會知道，所以這個就不應該嘛，楊文科本人說：「對，我就是被扣那麼多錢啊。」所以不要再跟我論斷說這個要不要起訴後才需要知道，根本隔天新聞一出來，他就說：「我就是扣掉那麼多錢。」為什麼外界會知道？所以我還是這樣子希望，就是總長你剛剛說的，因為多次違反偵查不公開，對司法的威信傷害很重，對執政黨也傷害很重，因為有人就開始穿鑿附會，說是賴政府下令要幹這個事，我是不相信啦，但是很多民眾會信嘛，有很多政治人物也會去操作這個議題，所以對政府也不好，對檢察體系也不好，我在意的是這個點，所以跟部長說明這個部分。那一樣，我還是滿希望的啦，外界現在誤認正義是向政治力傾斜，所以麻煩一定要注意這個。而且我認為其實我們就是要一起來，像我們民意代表要監督政府，不是護航政府，司法也不是護航政府啦。所以我們還是希望大家，尤其是司法人員，一定要注意到這個部分。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我再問一下司法院。我想請問一下，法官、檢察官如果違法裝GPS調查人民，依現行法人民可不可以救濟？違法裝GPS調查人民，現行法有沒有辦法救濟？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果是法官、檢察官的話，依照第一百五十三條之十，就是可以救濟。"],["吳委員宗憲：可以救濟。那請問一下，如果是司法警察沒有經過法官授權，自己去裝，那有沒有辦法救濟？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，一開始我們的書面報告就有寫，我們原來的草案是說，以層級化的方式規劃，所以在本案裡面，依照刑訴第一百五十八條之四的證據排除，假設他本身有故意過失，造成人民隱私受害的話，有國家賠償，行政責任更不必講，所以那一段時間就會判斷他本身處分的合法性，所以我們的書面報告是說，到底是要在前階段就做一個不法宣告，還是到後階段真正實際救濟的時候去做判斷，這是一個政策的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：不過，因為我看過你們的報告，你們是認為可以用國賠或個資法去救濟，對不對？但是在我的立場，因為當初我推的版本其實是有包括到司法警察的部分也可以救濟，當然通過的版本是依照司法院的版本，就是沒有嘛！但是我還是在這邊提一個我自己的想法，我認為說，如果司法警察違法裝GPS侵害人權的話，可以用什麼救濟？就是他直接去提告要求國賠或用個資法就可以的話，那法官、檢察官也可以啊，為什麼法官、檢察官有一個救濟方式，結果司法警察卻沒有？那這個會導致什麼問題？因為我們實務界出來的，我們很清楚，會導致警察不敢做事啊。就像醫生的預防性醫療一樣，很多事情就不幹了嘛。然後又會回歸到修法前的一個狀況，修法前我們都很清楚，不能裝GPS的時代，警察就是去找徵信社去偷裝嘛，實務都這樣做啊。我們現在面對現實遇到這個狀況，所以是不是變成是司法警察如果做這些事情，刑事訴訟法也可以救濟，至少讓警察做事情比較不怕，否則現在警察在決定到底該做不做時，他又要再想，因為做了會被告，像最早海巡裝GPS被判刑的那個人一樣，他覺得自己這麼努力查緝毒品，結果到最後被判刑了。我是提我的想法，就是當初我自己的版本是這樣。好，沒關係，我們將來也可以再慢慢地討論這個部分。","因為時間的關係，最後我延續剛剛幾個委員所提到的問題。總長、黃次長，我想請問一下，這一次憲判確實有點名5個死刑犯要非常上訴，我想你一定很清楚，就是擄人勒贖唯一死刑那兩位，以及有三位被認為有精神障礙的，譬如說林于如那三位被告，我現在就發現一個問題，以林于如這個案子為例好了，當時其實是判決三審定讞死刑的被告，結果他在審理中間曾經做過一次智力測驗，只有57分，然後就被認為說他沒有受審的能力。那我想請問一下，總長，你認同精神障礙的問題可以用單一的智力測驗就做認定嗎？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我要說明一下，因為我們不是專家啦，不過依照一般的常識，我個人認為，的確這樣是不夠的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟總長報告一下，我之前有提過，一個智商57的人要把自己演成110的很難，但是一個智商110的人要演成自己只有57，非常簡單，智力測驗每一題都故意寫錯，那最後分數就剩下57，所以依照我國刑法第十九條，其實是以行為時為準，我們只看行為時的精神狀況，並沒有看就審或受刑這一段時間的精神狀況嘛。當然我不懂，這跟總長也無關，大法官這一次會自己加上以前法律根本沒有的要就審期間的精神狀況也要出來，所以這個地方我就覺得很怪，更何況，他們之前在普通法院審理的時候，法官也多次說這個他不採，他的律師提過很多次，但法官說不採，結果這次竟然被大法官們認為說這個很重要，匪夷所思啦！匪夷所思！真的。因為這樣的話，以後我們所有的被告只要到審理的時候就可主張要做智力測驗，要做出來很低我也可以，說真的，我大學的時候做智力測驗是146，可是我現在要把自己做成46我覺得也很簡單，自己算一算哪幾題全部答錯就好，所以這個地方我真的是要麻煩總長注意一下，因為非常上訴是您要提的，我非常尊重你，我以前在當檢察官的時候就非常尊重你，這裡我不再去提別的，但還有幾件事情麻煩總長以及次長注意一下。最近我一直強調非常上訴之後回歸到普通法院的問題，我一直點出這個，但是我不懂為什麼社會上沒有人點出這個問題，因為這非常的嚴重。我想請教總長，當被告非常上訴成功回歸到普通法院審理的時候，他們適不適用無罪推定？這37位死刑犯他們會不會回歸到無罪推定？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：如果法院撤銷的話，當然就回歸到無罪推定。"],["吳委員宗憲：一定回歸到無罪推定，這就是我國的法制，所以我說我們將來可能會遇到的問題是第一個、法官可能不押，因為我們剛剛有講得很清楚了，因為我國羈押就只有依據第一百零一條和第一百零一條之一，那將來回歸到普通法院之後，如果你們要建議法官羈押，我想請教總長，當檢察官要建議法官羈押的時候，要依據哪一條條文？因為部長說他會請檢察官建議法官羈押，他符合哪個條文？第一百零一條只有逃亡、滅證才適用，第一百零一條之一是反覆實施，他在裡面關了二十幾年，我怎麼認定他反覆實施？所以跟總長報告，第一個點是這37個死刑犯萬一非常上訴成功之後回歸到普通法院審理，就有可能法官不裁押，部長雖然告訴我說他相信法官的智慧，問題是萬一我們遇到沒有智慧的法官怎麼辦？或者是因為他很有智慧，我國又是成文法國家，所以我們必須依據法令來下羈押裁定的時候，他不敢下一個違法的羈押裁定，不押怎麼辦？因為總長您的非常上訴讓這37個死刑犯裡面部分人回歸普通法院審理的時候，回歸那一天他就回家啦！這很恐怖耶！第二個是剛剛羅智強委員有提到羈押的期限，回歸到二審的話剩下15個月，在這15個月裡你們又要做精神鑑定又要開庭，又要審理這麼重大跟人命有關的案子，我不知道15個月審理得完審理不完，15個月期限一到就只能放人，沒有第二條路，這也是他們回歸社會的第二個可能性。第三個是假釋的問題，因為依據刑法施行法第七之一條、第七之二條，這些人的假釋門檻是「適用行為時」，也就是說他們是適用舊法15年的假釋規定，所以這些人只要一回歸到普通法院，他可能很快就可以申請假釋了，在監獄裡面死刑犯通常表現都很良好嘛，那怎麼辦？你又沒有駁回的理由，你要讓他假釋嗎？第四個我們要面臨的問題是收容到底能不能折抵刑期，因為以前的規定是死刑判決確定到槍決這段時間收容不能折抵刑期，而且以前也沒毛病，因為你都要槍決了還折抵什麼刑期啊！所以收容以前一直沒有認定有折抵刑期的問題，但是我跟你百分之百保證，會有一群人權團體出來說這些人的收容期間憑什麼不能折抵刑期，所以變成說有一些收容人他如果記錄刑期的話，立刻可以申請假釋。","這四個問題是我這個笨蛋頭腦想到的，我這一個月來每天為了這四個問題該怎麼解決其實很煩惱，我真的不是找大家麻煩，只是認為大法官捅了一個大簍子！大法官完全搞不清楚實務運作的問題出在哪！所以我真的拜託黃次長、拜託總長、拜託副秘，一定要解決這四個問題，否則如果我是這37個死刑犯的律師，隨便就能打趴法官，讓法官把這些人放出來，我可以舉一大堆理由、一大堆裁定的前例、一大堆判決判例來告訴你這些人就不能押，這些人必須放出去，這是我一直煩惱的事。我真的不是在找官員的麻煩，今天點出的這些是我20年實務經驗下來覺得解決不了的問題，這些問題跟三位完全無關，是大法官──那偉大的大法官捅出來的婁子！在這邊跟各位報告，再麻煩各位要以蒼生為念，要替我們社會上這些百姓想想，今天這些人如果回到社會跟我住同一個社區，我說真的，我不敢讓小孩子晚上出門，不敢讓小孩子獨自出門。再麻煩各位！謝謝各位！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員的正義感我們會審慎處理。謝謝！"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：我們先處理會議時間，上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答完畢為止。","接下來我們請王鴻薇委員發言，王鴻薇、王鴻薇。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅。","接下來我們請陳俊宇委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","沈發惠","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","陳俊宇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員鍾佳濱等19人\n擬具「刑事訴訟法第一百五十三條之十條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1139001_00001"}}},{"id":"156115","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156115","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bccf2f77cb2ede5e4982770301154c67dce0a1e5c1d8db796903ae40ffbf143735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:47:17 - 11:51:59","影片長度":"00:04:42","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:47:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:51:59+08:00","duration":282,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.22909375,"end":1.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.442843750000002,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.89284375,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.46221875,"end":29.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.562218750000003,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.08909375,"end":36.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.35846875,"end":42.893468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.94409375,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.330968750000004,"end":54.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.60471875,"end":63.008468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.632843750000006,"end":79.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.18284375,"end":82.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.38534375,"end":82.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.66784375,"end":83.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.73096875,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.97409375000001,"end":95.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.76284375,"end":96.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.77971875,"end":97.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.36596875000001,"end":97.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.43346875,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.45034375,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.28971875,"end":100.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.82534375,"end":103.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.13721875,"end":107.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":128.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.63221875,"end":121.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.61846875,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.11596875,"end":145.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.32659375,"end":133.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.47659375,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.94034375,"end":150.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.64034375,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.78784375,"end":165.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.52409375000002,"end":166.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.90784375,"end":182.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.28596875000002,"end":178.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.07471875000002,"end":183.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.39471875,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.66409375,"end":195.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.28721875000002,"end":200.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.14721875,"end":206.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.32346875000002,"end":208.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.31471875000003,"end":210.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.89659375000002,"end":214.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.96784375000001,"end":219.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.82784375000003,"end":226.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.74659375000002,"end":229.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.98659375000003,"end":235.85909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.11221875,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.71471875,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.29971875,"end":259.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.08721875000003,"end":273.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.60846875000004,"end":276.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.08034375,"end":279.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.18971875,"end":280.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.64534375,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.21909375,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.18096875000003,"end":282.55221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":9.998,"text":"全委員諮詢。主席有請國發會主委。羅委員好。"},{"start":21.536,"end":38.581,"text":"主委好看到國發會公布的人口推估我們在明年進入超高齡社會那人口紅利在2028年結束那一個很驚人的數字就2070年人口將剩下1497萬較現今大減844萬那原本3.6名的青壯人口撫養一名老年人口那會減少為每一名青壯"},{"start":51.405,"end":79.41,"text":"人口讓撫養一名老人。」那我想請教你有沒有那個馬總統曾經在執政的時候說過一句話有沒有聽過叫少子化是國安問題?呃有聽說你認同嗎?我認同阿對阿非常嚴重那我們講到少子化我們就要從新生兒人數開始說嘛那實際上從2000年的30.7萬一路下滑那到去年剩下多少?"},{"start":81.266,"end":105.702,"text":"十三年十三萬五你知道這一路下滑趨勢只有在一個時段它曾經有反轉往上走是哪一個年代是上一個農年十二年前對就是再次又下來了對好跟你講2010年那個時候這個我們的出生的人口是到了16萬6"},{"start":108.459,"end":132.894,"text":"到2012年反轉為22.9萬到2015年也還有21.3萬所以換言之這整個過去這20年的人口下滑的趨勢只有在這個階段它是有反轉的那我就想請教您請教您事實上你剛剛講龍年嘛開始反轉那一年是龍年嘛"},{"start":134.134,"end":150.459,"text":"但是今年龍年一到八月出生的寶寶數竟然比去年同期還少龍寶寶比兔寶寶還少連龍年效應都失去了請問主委那這些年投入預算那麼多為什麼出生人口越來越少不見成效呢"},{"start":153.441,"end":173.912,"text":"這個問題其實我們從另外一個角度來看請委員看一下我們去年13萬5裡面有一萬多個是因為不孕症的關係經過補助而生下來的我想委員也認同一件事我們幫助年輕人在養育小孩上紓壓是合理的是有效果的"},{"start":174.392,"end":199.773,"text":"那這些都是資金的投入那主委我告訴你啊您可以明示我們那些資金的投入是錯的那我願意來調整我來告訴你鐵針針事實擺在眼前你不用推給委員啦今天鐵針針事實就是今天我們民進黨政府上來之後你不斷地要改變少子化你可以講一百個你做得很棒的地方但你改變不了一個事實啊"},{"start":201.209,"end":229.154,"text":"就是從馬政府時候的將近22萬人21萬人掉到現在剩13萬了接近腰斬了也不過8年多的時間了那為什麼當時國民黨執政的時候喊出所謂的把國安就是少子化當作國安問題然後做出很多的措施能夠去反轉這個人口下跌的少子化這個趨勢我那時候在當總統府副秘書長抱歉"},{"start":230.074,"end":259.486,"text":"我經常在陪馬總統在開這個所謂的國安少子化的國安的研究對策會議馬總統是多麼重視這件事他技術非常多他是把這件事當一件重要的事來做可是我再舉個數字啊賴總統仍然要推出生生不息的政策嘛說要在2030年總生育率回到1.4可是你知道這個生生不息政策是在行政院長那一題提出來的2017年總生育率是多少"},{"start":261.155,"end":276.673,"text":"一點一三去年多少降到零點八七不是我對賴清德當總統沒信心啊他當院長他喊的一點是我只看到越來越掉掉越來越多掉到零點八七那於2013年剩下沒多少時間拜託再努力一點好不好好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":694,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時47分）主席，有請國發會主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主委好。我看到國發會公布的人口推估，我們在明年進入超高齡社會，人口紅利在2028年結束，一個很驚人的數字就是2070年人口將剩下1,497萬，較現今大減844萬，原本3.6名青壯人口撫養1名老年人口，會減少為每1名青壯人口撫養1名老人。馬總統曾經在執政的時候說過一句話，你有沒有聽過，叫「少子化是國安問題」？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有聽說。"],["羅委員智強：你認同嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我認同啊！"],["羅委員智強：對啊，非常嚴重。講到少子化，我們就要從新生兒人數開始說起，事實上，從2000年的30.7萬一路下滑，到去年剩下多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：13.5萬。"],["羅委員智強：對。你知道這一路下滑的趨勢只有在一個時段曾經反轉往上走，是哪一個年代？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是上一個龍年，12年前。"],["羅委員智強：對，就是……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是又下來了，隔年又下來了。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，2010年我們的出生人口是16.6萬，到2012年反轉為22.9萬，到2015年也還有21.3萬，換言之，過去這20年的人口下滑趨勢只有在這個階段是有反轉的，我就想請教您，事實上你剛剛講到龍年，開始反轉那一年是龍年嘛！但是今年龍年1到8月出生的寶寶數竟然比去年同期還少，龍寶寶比兔寶寶還少，連龍年效應都失去了。請問主委，這些年投入預算那麼多，為什麼出生人口越來越少，不見成效呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：關於這個問題，其實我們從另外一個角度來看，去年13.5萬裡面有一萬多個是因為不孕症經過補助而生下來的，我想委員也認同一件事，我們幫助年輕人在養育小孩上紓壓是合理的、是有效果的，而這些都是資金的投入，您可以明示我們哪些資金的投入是錯的，我們願意來調整。"],["羅委員智強：我來告訴你，鐵錚錚的事實擺在眼前，你不用推給委員啦！鐵錚錚的事實就是民進黨政府上來之後，你不斷的喊要改變少子化，你可以講一百個你做得很棒的地方，但你改變不了一個事實啊，就是從馬政府時候的將近22萬人、21萬人，掉到現在剩13萬人，接近腰斬了，也不過八年多的時間，為什麼當時國民黨執政的時候喊出所謂的把少子化當作國安問題，然後做出了很多的措施，能夠去反轉人口下跌的少子化趨勢？我那時候在當總統府副秘書長，抱歉，我經常陪馬總統在開所謂少子化的國安研究對策會議，馬總統是多麼重視這件事，所以他祭出非常多策略，他是把這件事當一件重要的事來做。我再提一個數字，賴總統任內要推出生生不息的政策，說要在2030年讓總生育率回到1.4，可是你知道這個生生不息政策是他在行政院長任內提出來的，2017年總生育率是多少？1.13，去年多少？降到0.87。不是我對賴清德當總統沒信心，他當院長時喊的1.4，我只看到掉得越來越多，掉到0.87，現在距離2030年剩下沒多少時間，拜託再努力一點好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席（邱委員志偉）：謝謝羅智強委員，主委先請回座。","下一位質詢請陳菁徽委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b06cc5bfe0f1da8eb982770301154c67dce0a1e5c1d8db796e6203fd8a27c331a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:38:27 - 11:47:08","影片長度":"00:08:41","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:38:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:47:08+08:00","duration":521,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.87346875,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.653468750000002,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.94784375,"end":25.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.660343750000003,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.37284375,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.53659375,"end":31.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.65471875,"end":34.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.877843750000004,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.96596875,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.737218750000004,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.424718750000004,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.002218750000004,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.95971875,"end":52.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.60909375,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.908468750000004,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.69284375,"end":61.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.439093750000005,"end":64.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.72971875,"end":69.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.99471875,"end":72.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.30221875000001,"end":74.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.97284375000001,"end":75.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.05284375000001,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.50409375000001,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.80721875,"end":84.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.52409375,"end":85.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.33409375000001,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.61659375,"end":90.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.78534375000001,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.23659375000001,"end":90.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.04221875,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.67471875000001,"end":102.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.53409375000001,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.26346875,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.26659375000001,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.36784375,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.54846875000001,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.63659375,"end":123.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.85534375,"end":125.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.80034375000001,"end":128.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.80409375000002,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.52034375,"end":135.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.17846875,"end":151.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.75846875000002,"end":156.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.56346875,"end":158.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.48721875,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.97659375,"end":159.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.01034375,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":159.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.11159375,"end":165.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.35534375,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.56159375000001,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.46409375000002,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.09659375,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.89784375000002,"end":179.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.54721875,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.82471875000002,"end":188.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.99721875,"end":193.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.53221875,"end":199.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.16846875000002,"end":201.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.73346875000001,"end":204.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.78784375,"end":211.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.08221875,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.84971875000002,"end":216.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.68909375,"end":218.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.68034375000002,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.88659375,"end":222.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.55721875,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.68346875,"end":231.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.45471875,"end":233.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.83409375000002,"end":235.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.98971875,"end":241.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.81596875000002,"end":245.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.97971875000002,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.07659375000003,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.09346875000003,"end":252.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.56534375,"end":259.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.02846875,"end":266.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.19596875,"end":272.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.22971875,"end":267.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.86596875000004,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.71284375,"end":287.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.22221875,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.15346875,"end":303.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.62471875,"end":307.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.67909375,"end":310.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.36221875,"end":311.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.26909375,"end":314.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.30659375000005,"end":316.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.36534375,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.00221875,"end":321.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.44909375000003,"end":322.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.42784375,"end":324.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.31346875,"end":330.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.91596875000005,"end":332.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.19846875,"end":340.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.24784375,"end":348.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.91784375000003,"end":352.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.09034375000005,"end":349.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.03534375000004,"end":350.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.78596875,"end":355.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.67159375,"end":355.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.92471875,"end":356.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.97096875,"end":364.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.83471875000004,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.61471875,"end":375.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.63034375,"end":378.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.77346875,"end":380.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.61284375,"end":381.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.08096875,"end":384.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.96659375,"end":385.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.18596875000003,"end":386.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.89034375,"end":395.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.43346875000003,"end":408.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.03659375,"end":396.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.98159375,"end":397.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.66909375,"end":399.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.31346875,"end":406.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.20721875000004,"end":417.29909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.04159375,"end":425.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.85471875,"end":431.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.09846875000005,"end":435.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.18221875,"end":441.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.91971875,"end":442.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.23596875000004,"end":444.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.12596875,"end":446.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.83846875,"end":453.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.39471875000004,"end":453.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.66471875,"end":454.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.16659375,"end":461.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.40159375,"end":464.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.40971875,"end":465.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.43909375000004,"end":487.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.77034375000005,"end":480.09096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.69846875,"end":483.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.60034375000004,"end":494.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.90409375,"end":488.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.48096875000005,"end":499.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.10471875,"end":501.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.16784375000003,"end":505.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.21346875000006,"end":512.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.36534375,"end":506.63534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.02346875,"end":516.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.97596875,"end":514.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.66346875,"end":515.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.3003437500001,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.2240937500001,"end":519.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.2409687500001,"end":519.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.9622187500001,"end":521.4853437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":14.714,"text":"請邱志偉召委執行。」謝謝主席我一定遵守時間一定是6加2謝謝主席請國安會的劉主委"},{"start":18.993,"end":25.576,"text":"所以我們看第一個數據第一個數據是你們發布是針對2023的總生育率加上0.865那僅高於韓國0.72那針對2023對不對是的然後這個我們看一下美國的數據美國的數據你看下一張美國的數據台灣是已經這個低於韓國生育率變成全世界倒數第一名所有的國家裡面我們排227"},{"start":49.096,"end":74.775,"text":"所以再回到上一頁你現在所提的五面向對策目前正在實施你明年二月又要提解放如果這些現在的五面向對策有效的話它不會變成那麼一個嚴峻的一個態勢就是說我們是227個國家裡面我們生育率是倒數第一是生育率全世界最低的國家這是不是一個不可逆的趨勢"},{"start":77.591,"end":82.255,"text":"目前來看,其實要可逆是有點難度了。我們希望先守住現在。」"},{"start":92.745,"end":119.421,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們現在最大的困難其實還是在大家的結婚慾望比較低我們必須先解掉這一段否則會很困難為什麼結婚慾望比較低呢?就是因為低薪嘛你低薪代表說你可支配所得這個減少你就不敢去養兒育女嘛包括物價的膨脹生活所得的生活支出大幅提高包括物價的上漲包括高房價"},{"start":120.74,"end":121.661,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":136.826,"end":158.273,"text":"所以我們一直在探討怎麼樣讓0到6歲的這個國家一起養的政策更能夠吻合市場的需求當然這需要大量的預算所以我們還是就像我之前報告我們需要找裁員你知道嗎日本曾經是最早進入超高齡這個社會的國家但他們已經慢慢的可逆了"},{"start":159.013,"end":187.86,"text":"他們生意力有提高了嗎?他們本來可逆是回到了1.4但是又降回到1.2疫情的期間但最起碼他們已經控制這個惡化的狀況嘛所以他們內閣裡面有個少子化部嘛有個少子化大臣對他有一個大臣大臣是內閣的閣員閣員相當於一個部長部長有實權有預算有人力去執行少子化的相關的對策那我們目前的狀況是由政委"},{"start":189.082,"end":204.061,"text":"政委是協調各部會的執行狀況做政策的規劃的協調政委也不需要來立法院備詢不管是院會也是委員會他的執行狀況如何我們沒有辦法透過國會的監督"},{"start":205.874,"end":220.337,"text":"所以為什麼你必須要去參考其他國家是不是要成立一個專責的少子化對策部或少子化對策委員會有一個專任的部長來接受國會的監督、編列預算、充實能力"},{"start":222.14,"end":245.545,"text":"對政下要把青年的地心問題解決可自備所得提高降低房價降低這個生活開支他們才有這個意願去生才有能力去養所以我覺得你現在明年二月你還要邀集各部會明年二月提解方這五面像是不是正在做的事情"},{"start":247.008,"end":266.14,"text":"都在做事情嘛。」好那我想這個您的建議我也是會會把這個跟院長報告看看他對這件事有什麼樣的裁釋不是你是幕僚機關你應該提出解方不是去問院長因為院長一定會回問你你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":267.367,"end":289.373,"text":"你不能去問院長你是幕僚的首長沒錯啊所以這部分應該你要提出解方所以我剛剛現在對政效要問題在哪裡針對問題解決問題我們再看一下這女性就業的狀況我們20到24歲的女性勞動參與率比較低的原因是因為她就學年數的關係大家念研究所25歲到29歲女性勞參與率是這個大概是鄰國之冠到90%"},{"start":296.209,"end":322.076,"text":"但是另外呢到40歲以上因為結婚的關係因為生育的關係他就沒有辦法再投入返回職場不像其他的國家日本、南韓跟美國他的重返職場的比例比台灣高太多了你看台灣到5.365歲以上然後50到都比其他每一個年齡世代都比韓國、日本還低"},{"start":325.379,"end":329.627,"text":"所以為什麼女性沒有辦法在這個結婚育兒之後重返職場"},{"start":331.196,"end":352.233,"text":"這個要去探討原因有這個這兩個問題其實我們有兩個比例都比較低一個是中高齡的就業比例比較低第一個婦女的這個勞參率比較低這個我們都有請跟勞動部討論勞動部都有一些政策出來你講到這個引髮族或者是退休的狀況我們看最後一個表勞動參與率的年齡比"},{"start":356.021,"end":375.12,"text":"你看一下我們這個25歲到49歲年齡有八成的勞動參與率跟國際相比毫不遜色但是50歲以上呢所謂壯世代我們今天討論壯世代50到64歲這個基本上體育上都沒有問題他的勞參與率是階梯式的雪崩式的下降"},{"start":376.69,"end":386.175,"text":"你要怎麼去解決這個問題?怎辦二度就業者、銀髮族能夠同心在導入職場?這需要政策去引導"},{"start":387.707,"end":405.907,"text":"對這個部分也許我不知道勞動部是不是可以來說明一下因為勞動部針對婦女跟中高齡都有一個相當的政策我這沒有那麼多時間我只是把這個問題提出來我希望你做一個協調單位你要跟院長講你也要跟這個陳時中政委講這部分非常重要因為這個講到這個缺工的問題"},{"start":411.24,"end":435.057,"text":"人力航空部我們今年4月我們缺工來到110萬左右我們國人到海外去工作人數將近50萬中國最多美國居次然後去東南亞鄰國包括日本台灣工作也多包括南韓也吸引台灣留學生挖走了我們很多的白領跟知識精英"},{"start":436.243,"end":464.322,"text":"那我們的相對的政策要吸引其他國家的高階人才、白領人才到台灣來反而這個效果有限這問題到底是出現在哪裡呢?你的目標是2030年要40萬人才攬才目標捏40萬捏那目前的結果是怎麼樣?2024還有6年你要達40萬攬才的目標捏到底能不能達成呢?"},{"start":466.516,"end":493.413,"text":"目前至少我們現在是有訂定的相當的策略啦我們也分配到不同的任務裡面去那以目前來看的話我們最大的來源還是在這個喬外森在這邊念學的這是最大來源那第二個部分是我跟您報告我們現在開始進行到海外攬才的部分這你要40萬目標我覺得這個很拚另外高階專業人才你門檻要16萬"},{"start":495.543,"end":510.213,"text":"你要配合他久居的福利的這些資源也沒有配套措施所以我覺得你要模仿或者學其他國家的做法把司法門檻能夠降低我們現在已經開始在調整了我有時間再跟你請教因為這個問題很重要我再給我10分鐘我也講不完但是我要遵守時間的規律這個招委要以身作則"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我一定遵守時間，一定是6加2。謝謝主席，請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：我們看第一個數據，根據你們發布的數據，2023年的總生育率降到0.865，僅高於韓國的0.72，那是針對2023年，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：我們看一下美國的數據，根據美國的數據，臺灣已經低於韓國的生育率，變成全世界倒數第一名，所有的國家裡面，我們排227啊！你們現在所提的五面向對策目前正在實施，明年2月又要提解方，如果執行到現在的五面向對策有效的話，它不會變成那麼嚴峻的態勢，就是說我們在227個國家裡面，我們的生育率是倒數第一，是全世界生育率最低的國家，這是不是一個不可逆的趨勢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前來看，其實要可逆是有點難度啦！我們希望先守住現在……"],["邱委員志偉：會永遠的倒數第一名，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：是的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：嗯。"],["邱委員志偉：哇！如果你這樣……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我們現在應該這樣看……"],["邱委員志偉：這代表你的對策沒有對症下藥。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員報告一下，我們現在最大的困難其實還是在大家的結婚慾望比較低，我們必須先解掉這一段，否則會很困難……"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼結婚慾望比較低呢？就是因為低薪嘛！你低薪，代表說你的可支配所得減少，你就不敢養兒育女，對不對？包括物價膨脹、生活支出大幅提高，包括物價的上漲，包括高房價，所以他不敢生，也沒有辦法養。不能怪罪年輕人說他不結婚、不生小孩，因為他生了之後養不起，沒有辦法養，也沒有辦法給他們好的條件跟環境。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們一直在探討怎麼樣讓0到6歲國家一起養的政策更能夠吻合市場需求，當然這需要大量的預算，所以還是就像我之前報告的，我們需要找財源，那……"],["邱委員志偉：您知道嗎？日本曾經是最早進入超高齡社會的國家，但他們已經慢慢的可逆了，他們的生育率有提高了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他們本來可逆是回到了1.4，但是又降回到1.2，疫情的期間……"],["邱委員志偉：但是最起碼他們已經控制這種惡化的狀況，所以他們內閣裡面有個少子化大臣……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，他們有一個少子化大臣。"],["邱委員志偉：大臣是內閣的閣員，閣員相當於部長，部長有實權、有預算、有人力去執行少子化相關的對策，而我們目前的狀況是由政委召集，政委是協調各部會的執行狀況，進行政策的規劃協調，政委也不需要來立法院備詢，不管是院會或是委員會，他的執行狀況如何，我們沒有辦法透過國會來監督啊！所以為什麼你必須要去參考其他國家，是不是要成立一個專責的少子化對策部或少子化對策委員會，有一個專任的部長來接受國會的監督，編列預算、充實人力、對症下藥，把青年的低薪問題解決、可支配所得提高、降低房價、降低生活開支，他們才有意願去生，才有能力去養。明年2月你還要邀集各部會提解方，這五個面向是不是正在做的事情？都是在做的事情嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，您的建議我也會跟院長報告，看看他對這件事有什麼樣的裁示。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，你是幕僚機關，你應該提出解方，而不是去問院長，因為院長一定會回問你的看法是怎麼樣。你不能去問院長，你是幕僚的首長……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯啊！"],["邱委員志偉：所以這部分應該是你要提出解方，我剛剛也說要對症下藥，看看究竟問題在哪裡，針對問題解決問題。","我們再看一下女性就業的狀況，我們20歲到24歲的女性勞動參與率比較低的原因是因為就學年數的關係，他要念研究所。25歲到29歲女性勞參率大概是鄰國之冠，達到90%，但是到40歲以上，因為結婚的關係、生育的關係，他就沒有辦法再返回職場。不像其他的國家，包括日本、南韓跟美國，他們重返職場的比率比臺灣高太多了。你看臺灣到5.3%耶；另外65歲以上，還有50歲到64歲，每一個年齡世代都比韓國、日本還低，為什麼女性沒有辦法在結婚育兒之後重返職場，這個要去探討原因。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，針對這兩個問題，其實我們有兩個比率都比較低，一個是中高齡的就業比率比較低，第二個是婦女的勞參率比較低，這個我們都有跟勞動部討論，勞動部都有一些政策出來……"],["邱委員志偉：你講到銀髮族或者是退休的狀況，我們看最後一個表，關於勞動參與率的年齡別，我們25歲到49歲這個年齡還有八成的勞動參與率，跟國際相比毫不遜色，但是50歲以上呢？所謂的壯世代，我們現在討論的壯世代是50歲到64歲，這個基本上體力都沒有問題，但他的勞參率是階梯式、雪崩式的下降，你要怎麼去解決這個問題？怎麼把二度就業者、銀髮族能夠再重新導入職場，這需要政策去引導。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：針對這個部分，我不知道勞動部是不是可以來說明一下？因為勞動部針對婦女跟中高齡都有相當的政策。"],["邱委員志偉：我沒有那麼多時間，我只是把這個問題提出來，我希望你做為一個協調單位，你要跟院長講，你也要跟陳時中政委講，這部分非常重要。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外講到缺工的問題，人力銀行公布今年4月我們的缺工來到110萬左右，國人到海外工作人數將近50萬，中國最多，美國居次，然後就是東南亞。以鄰國來講，包括日本，臺灣人去工作的也多，包括南韓也吸引臺灣留學生，挖走了我們很多的白領跟知識菁英，相對的我們的政策要吸引其他國家的高階人才、白領人才到臺灣來，反而效果有限，問題到底出在哪裡呢？你的目標是2030年要留才、攬才目標40萬，請問目前結果怎麼樣？現在是2024年，未來還有6年，你要達到40萬攬才的目標，到底能不能達成呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至少我們現在有訂定相當的策略，我們也分配到不同的任務裡面去，以目前來看的話，我們最大的來源還是僑外生在這邊求學的，這是最大的來源。第二個是我們現在開始進行到海外攬才的部分……"],["邱委員志偉：是啊！那是杯水車薪，你的40萬目標，我覺得這個很拚啦！","另外，高階專業人才的門檻要16萬，你要他久居的這些福利、資源也沒有配套措施，所以我覺得你要模仿或者學其他國家作法，能夠把這個門檻降低。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在已經開始在調整了，因為包括……"],["邱委員志偉：不好意思，我的時間到了我有時間再跟你請教，因為這個問題很重要。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：再給我10分鐘我也講不完，但是我要遵守時間的規定，召委要以身作則。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bb8f3f75f586acea4acf2ea2eceb6ef26ce0a1e5c1d8db79606b5fab5b46a0e585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:32:12 - 11:42:41","影片長度":"00:10:29","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:32:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:42:41+08:00","duration":629,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.40221875,"end":2.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":4.1822187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.705343750000001,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.22409375,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.337218750000002,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.450968750000001,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.923468750000001,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.340968750000002,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.35721875,"end":18.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.74096875,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.01909375,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.05284375,"end":22.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.031593750000003,"end":25.090343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.60909375,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.515968750000003,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.836593750000002,"end":30.304718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.03034375,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.612218750000004,"end":35.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.82721875,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.962218750000005,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.02971875,"end":35.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.58659375,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.548468750000005,"end":36.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.61596875,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.52721875,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.54409375,"end":37.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.56096875,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.64534375,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.69596875,"end":37.712843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.712843750000005,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.76346875,"end":37.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.79721875,"end":37.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.96596875,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.02909375,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.518468750000004,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.58596875,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.78846875,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.80534375,"end":39.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.85596875,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.564718750000004,"end":42.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.24784375,"end":45.104093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.40346875,"end":48.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.12034375,"end":50.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.60096875,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.63846875,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.962843750000005,"end":60.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.11409375,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.61596875,"end":63.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.18971875,"end":71.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.54721875,"end":109.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.52909375,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.55534375,"end":104.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.46159375,"end":108.04784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.02659375,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.07721875,"end":109.31346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.41471875,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.66784375,"end":110.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.29221875,"end":111.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.30471875,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.76034375,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.05971875,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.42659375000001,"end":115.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.01721875000001,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.96221875,"end":119.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.27409375,"end":128.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.08721875,"end":128.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.93909375,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.98971875,"end":129.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.00659375,"end":129.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.56346875,"end":129.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.58034375,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.61409375,"end":129.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.68159375000002,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.12034375000002,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.17096875000001,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.84596875,"end":130.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.87971875,"end":130.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.94721875000002,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.96409375000002,"end":131.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.33534375000002,"end":131.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.35221875000002,"end":131.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.93846875,"end":133.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.00596875000002,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.24221875,"end":133.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.32659375,"end":133.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.89596875,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.01409375,"end":141.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.16909375,"end":142.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.18596875,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.33784375000002,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.38409375,"end":143.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.92409375,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.65784375,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.99471875,"end":152.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.36159375,"end":158.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.42409375,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.73159375,"end":163.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.68909375,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.10659375,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.39284375,"end":172.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.86471875,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.41284375,"end":177.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.80909375000002,"end":179.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.27284375000002,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.84659375,"end":184.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.35284375,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.64784375000002,"end":184.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.21721875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.30159375000002,"end":208.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.73159375,"end":189.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.32784375,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.22221875000002,"end":207.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.76221875000002,"end":212.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.97721875000002,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.88784375,"end":218.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.54534375,"end":220.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.15659375,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.87346875,"end":226.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.69159375,"end":231.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.38721875000002,"end":236.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.31034375000002,"end":238.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.03596875000002,"end":238.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.84596875000003,"end":239.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.06096875000003,"end":241.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.46159375000002,"end":243.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.94221875000002,"end":257.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.54784375,"end":257.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.62346875000003,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.58534375,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.85534375000003,"end":261.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.62284375,"end":264.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.24721875,"end":263.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.28096875,"end":264.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.31034375,"end":264.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.98534375,"end":268.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.01471875000004,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.95096875,"end":269.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.48659375,"end":272.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.34284375000004,"end":274.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.63784375,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.33784375,"end":277.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.35471875,"end":278.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.49784375,"end":284.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.40846875,"end":287.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.40784375000004,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.70284375,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.02346875,"end":292.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.83346875,"end":293.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.94284375,"end":293.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.95971875000004,"end":294.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.53346875,"end":295.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.64721875000004,"end":296.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.96346875,"end":297.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.58784375000005,"end":311.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.37034375,"end":312.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.38721875000005,"end":314.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.53034375000004,"end":316.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.82534375,"end":320.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.01034375,"end":325.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.07284375,"end":338.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.12346875000003,"end":327.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.31971875000005,"end":344.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.70284375,"end":348.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.97221875,"end":349.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.49534375,"end":349.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.57971875000004,"end":350.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.50784375,"end":356.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.36346875000004,"end":356.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.39721875000004,"end":358.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.94096875,"end":362.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.97846875000005,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.58159375,"end":366.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.87659375000004,"end":368.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.54284375000003,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.70721875000004,"end":371.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.25971875000005,"end":374.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.92596875000004,"end":375.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.80346875000004,"end":377.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.87471875,"end":381.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.43971875,"end":382.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.29596875000004,"end":385.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.55721875,"end":388.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.64534375000005,"end":390.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.83471875000004,"end":393.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.32409375000003,"end":398.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.34846875000005,"end":399.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.93471875,"end":402.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.01034375,"end":409.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.27971875000003,"end":411.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.02159375,"end":411.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.98346875000004,"end":416.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.01659375,"end":432.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.11784375,"end":416.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.82409375000003,"end":435.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.97971875,"end":435.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.99659375000005,"end":436.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.03034375000004,"end":436.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.33409375,"end":436.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.35096875000005,"end":436.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.46909375,"end":436.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.51971875000004,"end":444.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.95846875,"end":437.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.16409375,"end":448.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.26471875000004,"end":448.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.90596875000006,"end":450.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.99846875000003,"end":452.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.85471875,"end":458.18721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.67659375000005,"end":460.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.63409375000003,"end":461.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.95034375,"end":467.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.83971875000003,"end":470.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.29909375000005,"end":472.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.54784375,"end":473.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.23971875,"end":474.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.92721875,"end":484.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.27721875000003,"end":477.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.89284375000005,"end":479.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.44909375000003,"end":486.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.17471875,"end":485.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.11096875000004,"end":489.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.16534375000003,"end":491.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.22409375,"end":492.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.96659375,"end":500.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.45909375,"end":504.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.42471875,"end":505.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.50471875000005,"end":515.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.25409375,"end":517.5872187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.90784375,"end":518.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.9878437500001,"end":519.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.05534375,"end":520.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.03409375,"end":520.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.13534375,"end":520.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.20284375,"end":529.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.01596875,"end":528.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.9609687500001,"end":531.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.6272187500001,"end":533.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.9897187500001,"end":538.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.5290937500001,"end":540.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.12784375,"end":542.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.41034375,"end":543.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.8615937500001,"end":544.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.1484687500001,"end":544.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.67159375,"end":544.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.80659375,"end":552.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.7547187499999,"end":554.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.7122187500001,"end":555.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.91034375,"end":556.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.6653437500001,"end":559.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.09534375,"end":561.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.1709687499999,"end":563.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.23846875,"end":563.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.6897187500001,"end":564.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.29721875,"end":564.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.4153437500001,"end":564.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.76971875,"end":564.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.8203437500001,"end":564.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.85409375,"end":564.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.92159375,"end":565.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.02284375,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.34221875,"end":573.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.59534375,"end":575.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.56534375,"end":578.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.55659375,"end":579.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.0290937500001,"end":579.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.1640937500001,"end":579.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.40034375,"end":579.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.4509687500001,"end":579.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.4678437499999,"end":579.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.68721875,"end":579.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.8559687500001,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.0247187500001,"end":580.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.9697187500001,"end":582.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.8215937500001,"end":587.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.42471875,"end":585.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.7453437500001,"end":585.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.3484687499999,"end":594.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.1615937500001,"end":595.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.3472187500001,"end":595.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.97159375,"end":598.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.1865937499999,"end":598.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.8403437500001,"end":600.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.0678437500001,"end":601.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.8272187499999,"end":602.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.12221875,"end":605.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.0122187500001,"end":606.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.7040937500001,"end":611.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.4965937500001,"end":615.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.63096875,"end":625.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.33409375,"end":628.05096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.77,"end":24.967,"text":"謝謝主席一期各位先進有請國防部的顧部長顧部長如果問到相關的問題其他長官可以來幫忙喔部長委員好辛苦了齁這個今天講無人機阿請問你知不知道無人機有兩種一個叫有線一個無線你知道嗎"},{"start":26.67,"end":44.874,"text":"有限無限有限無限有限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限無限"},{"start":51.653,"end":53.316,"text":"最近不到10公里所以干擾槍啊不好啊 干擾槍是打無限的 對吧"},{"start":62.125,"end":63.226,"text":"報告委員沒有錯在二屋戰場上面的確也發現到俄羅斯使用了這個有限的無人機但是基本上"},{"start":83.299,"end":103.477,"text":"在運用上面有限無限它還是有它的一些優缺點比如說有限的那它的這個限控它基本上可能它的滯空時間可以長達數小時那但是相對的它的有限的高度和距離對它也產生一個限制那無限的部分基本上我們對它來說沒有錯干擾可能就是所謂的硬殺"},{"start":109.142,"end":109.663,"text":"回答一下"},{"start":136.853,"end":141.457,"text":"我們現在已經完成了相關的應處程序也規劃建制反制系統"},{"start":151.015,"end":158.377,"text":"陸軍報告,飛靶目前在我們的訓練項目沒有啦,我查過都沒有咧,奇怪咧,如果它飛過來是有限的你怎麼樣,你不能用干擾槍,干擾槍是無限的你只要用射靶,用槍來打,結果沒有訓練,還是要怎樣?中共的無人機來,就坐在那裡,大家看這樣,眼睛看這樣就好了"},{"start":180.322,"end":184.125,"text":"暫時跟暫時的考慮還是有所區別平時我們要考慮它設計和相關背景的安全因素可是那這個時候當然限制會比較多可是我在暫時的話它是一個對我有敵意進行的無人機我們的各項的防空武器和地面的火炮就可以形成火炮"},{"start":208.683,"end":210.044,"text":"國防部相關的兵種沒有對非法做訓練"},{"start":227.782,"end":232.885,"text":"所以對於中共的有限無人機等於是束手無策"},{"start":259.643,"end":278.355,"text":"啊你可以設幾公里嗎?你告訴我可以設幾公里?啊?散彈可以設幾公里?散彈就是因為它的距離有限可以設幾公里?高度啊?大概100公尺左右100公尺啊它無人機飛那麼低啊?因為有限的話它的高度真的高不了大概一般可以到多少?"},{"start":280.135,"end":293.512,"text":"解放軍的這個飛10公里他能夠到多少高度我真的沒有超過一百啦你去看嘛一百公尺很短的一百公尺很短的所以跟委員報告齁我們操場一個操場就250啦所以跟委員報告一般都一樣看得到 現在看得到"},{"start":297.617,"end":298.278,"text":"請教部長啦 這個部長可以拍板啦"},{"start":312.578,"end":316.001,"text":"上個禮拜一委員會考察的時候我們就已經把那個涉及測試的影片跟參與考察的委員都播放過了那是非常有效的涉及"},{"start":339.332,"end":347.877,"text":"不是啦,你說我回答,你沒有回答我問題,所以你不是部長啊部長回答是你要不要下令做我們的非法訓練啊,還沒什麼阿爸你怎麼辦呢委員的指教我會下去跟各聯產來這個研議一下,好不好有這麼困難嗎來我們來看齁,來這個,我們說我們的艦翔反輻射無人機啊,或者攻擊無人機啊好,發展度發展這樣齁"},{"start":369.588,"end":371.229,"text":"美方侵賴然後呢要貼牌跟我們要設計圖貼牌啊輸出美方貼我們的麥顧立雄部長說樂見其成欸你們說個本頂的喔我們的建想這麼棒可以讓美方貼我們的牌就貼他的牌啦齁會不會到時候又賣回來給我們啊"},{"start":392.753,"end":399.399,"text":"現在的合作案裡面沒有這樣子的規劃目前的合作案目前正在進行的合作案他有貼牌不是嗎還沒有到這個程度我們的顧部長說樂見其成我們的消息這樣講我們期待可以樂見其成他們貼牌我們期待可以往這個方向發展我們期待可以往這個方向樂見美國貼他的牌用我們的東西是不是"},{"start":416.235,"end":431.748,"text":"我沒有特定哪一個無人機我現在只是在說我們希望達成一個國際供應鏈裡面的一環我想主要是在做產業分工這樣的一個說明不是在特別的指定哪一個項目或哪一個那個"},{"start":432.861,"end":443.144,"text":"因為你那時候講這個話是針對無人機因為後來這個標題就一直在拉到這個地方去那我講話的一個重點應該是在說我們要進入這個美國為主導的這個國際供應鏈裡面的一環這樣子好 這個我替你補充了你是律師比較精準你是不是講的就是針對非紅色供應鏈我們join進來"},{"start":461.23,"end":466.555,"text":"歡迎美國拿我們的所有的軍工我們的中科院發展出來的東西歡迎美國推牌這樣講對吧我這樣講對吧可以嗎"},{"start":474.963,"end":481.648,"text":"委員不是說歡迎他貼牌是我們希望能夠在這個國防供應鏈我們希望在這個國防供應鏈裡面扮演相當的角色角色聽不懂啦 那個東西就貼牌這樣可以嗎 就歡迎貼牌可以嗎 可以嗎 院長"},{"start":492.055,"end":502.423,"text":"我不認為是這樣的一個講法我們成為供應鏈裡面的一環然後我們有相關的強項那成為這個供應鏈裡面的一環你知道供應鏈的意思喔Value Chain啊這個Supply Chain啊這裡面就我做製造我做設計Marketing美國來做他貼牌他去賣這個不好啊這個東西有什麼不對呢從企業的經營角度來講OK啊有什麼不好呢這有什麼不好"},{"start":521.818,"end":528.304,"text":"我沒有辦法很清楚的理解您講的所謂貼牌這兩個字因為媒體在用貼牌這兩個字貼牌就是那我講具體一點我們台灣的中科院設計製造包括研發設計研發製造美國做Marketing這樣可以嗎做行銷可以嗎這樣可以嗎"},{"start":544.358,"end":548.221,"text":"呃...可以可以嘛!阿行銷裡面的報告貼牌的阿就說貼牌是比較清醒的道理就是brand branding 品牌阿品牌掛一個他說要等於USA喔阿裡面的東西是我們的喔"},{"start":562.256,"end":575.466,"text":"只是我是懷疑啦齁我不知道來來來中科院院長回答一下我們的意思應該是我們可以擔任產品的供應商原件供應商或者是我們來共同開發或者我們被授權講的等等這些都是相關的可能的機會嘛請問請問無人機最關鍵的技術是什麼來院長講這個問題內無人機最關鍵的技術對我來講的話對"},{"start":587.458,"end":614.48,"text":"就是他第一個他要能完全無人把人力的操縱降到最低第二個逆中和噪音降低照相那個最重要不是嗎這個是選配這個是選配這個我們可以自己做嗎我們技術是不是承受的我們今天早上有答詢過我現在只要把某一個技術等到那個機器到了我們克服以後的確我們是有這個機會的"},{"start":615.66,"end":618.522,"text":"好啦這個這樣走走不中電我替你吹噓還不敢講中科院做設計研發製造然後美國貼牌還要多讚你還不跟我說奇怪好啦謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":624,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時32分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["賴委員士葆：如果問到相關的問題，其它長官可以來幫忙。"],["顧部長立雄：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。辛苦了！今天講無人機，請問你知不知道無人機有兩種，一個叫有線，一個叫無線，你知道嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有線、無線？我的理解……"],["賴委員士葆：請幫忙的上來。你不知道喔？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，是的。"],["賴委員士葆：是的嘛！有線的無人機，烏克蘭做的1公里，大陸做的10公里，金門、馬祖最近不到10公里，所以干擾槍無效。干擾槍是打無線的，對吧？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我，有線的要怎麼辦呢？老共的都是有線的，不是無線的。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，沒有錯，在俄烏戰場上面，的確也發現到俄羅斯使用了有線的無人機。但是基本上在運用上面，有線、無線還是有它的一些優缺點。譬如說，有線的它的線控基本上可能滯空時間可以長達數小時，但是相對地，它有線的高度和距離對它也產生一個限制。"],["賴委員士葆：因為我時間有限，你不用講那麼多。"],["陳參謀長建義：基本上，我們對它來說，沒有錯，干擾可能……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我怎麼打？"],["陳參謀長建義：就是所謂的硬殺。"],["賴委員士葆：硬殺就用槍打下來嘛！對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["賴委員士葆：最簡單來講，砰！砰！把它打下來，這個叫有線的，因為它是有線的喔！就這樣打。"],["陳參謀長建義：但是在有線的運用上面來說，它不太可能那麼大量，因為它本身繫留的線對它就是一個限制。"],["賴委員士葆：上一次跑到金門，那是有線，還是無線的？"],["陳參謀長建義：無線的。"],["賴委員士葆：無線的？無線的用石頭丟啊？回答一下。無線的我們用石頭丟，不是嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們現在已經完成了相關的應處程序，也規劃建置了反制系統。"],["賴委員士葆：用槍打，要訓練嘛！你告訴我，各兵種有沒有飛靶訓練？哪一位長官？你嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：陸軍報告，飛靶目前在我們的訓練項目沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！我查過了，沒有啦！奇怪！如果它飛過來是有線的，你不能用干擾槍，干擾槍是無線的，你只能用射靶、用槍來打，結果我們又沒有訓練，要怎麼辦？中共的無人機要來就隨它來嗎？大家看，認真看就好了，是這樣子喔？長官你要回答一下。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，在平時跟……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你是哪一位？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告，我是陸軍參謀長陳建義。跟委員報告，在平時跟戰時的考慮還是有所區別。平時我們要考慮它設計和相關背景的安全因素，這個時候當然限制會比較多；可是如果在戰時的話，它是一個對我有敵意、近襲的無人機，我們各項的防空武器和地面的火炮就可以形成火網。"],["賴委員士葆：你不用講那麼多啦！你現在回答我，顧部長聽好哦！仔細聽好哦！你現在很大力在弄無人機哦！沒有人反對你發展無人機哦！可是到現在為止，我們國防部相關的兵種沒有對飛靶做訓練，所以對於中共的有線無人機等於是束手無策。就是認真看，來了喔！好高喔！這樣而已。來，李院長嗎？請李將軍回答。"],["李院長世強：委員，跟你報告一下，剛剛陸軍參謀長已經講過了，有線的有它的限制，對不對？就是高度不夠高。所以對於有線的無人機，我們硬殺的手段，我覺得用散彈會比您用單發去練習打飛靶要好得多。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫散彈？"],["陳參謀長建義：散彈槍。"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我散彈可以射幾公里？"],["李院長世強：散彈就是因為它的距離有限。"],["賴委員士葆：可以射幾公里？"],["李院長世強：高度嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：對，高度。"],["李院長世強：大概100公尺左右。"],["賴委員士葆：100公尺？無人機飛那麼低啊？"],["李院長世強：因為有線的高度真的高不了。"],["賴委員士葆：大概一般可以到多少？"],["李院長世強：解放軍的飛10公里能夠到多少高度，我真的沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：超過100啦！你去看看！你隨便亂講！100公尺很短耶！我們一個操場就250啦！"],["李院長世強：所以跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：一半而已啊！眼睛也看得到。"],["李院長世強：跟委員報告，我們考慮到這個狀況，所以我們也幫陸軍設計了去連結在外島的20機砲，然後用我們的射控系統來直接帶20機砲做射擊。"],["賴委員士葆：請教部長，這個部長可以拍板啦！你要不要下令我們陸軍或者什麼軍都好，所有的兵種要做飛靶訓練，可以嗎？他們現在都沒有耶！你不是部長，我請問部長。"],["李院長世強：報告委員，我再講一下。"],["賴委員士葆：你是院長，不是部長。"],["李院長世強：上個禮拜一委員會考察的時候，因為委員沒有參加，當時我們就已經把射擊測試的影片向參與考察的委員都播放過了，那是非常有效的射擊。"],["賴委員士葆：不是啦！你沒有回答我的問題，你不是部長啊！請部長回答。你要不要下令做我們的飛靶訓練啊？可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我……"],["賴委員士葆：不然怎麼辦呢？"],["顧部長立雄：委員的指教，我會下去跟各個聯參來研議一下，好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：有這麼困難嗎？我們來看。我們說我們的劍翔反輻射無人機或者攻擊無人機有多讚，受美方青睞，然後跟我們要設計圖，貼牌輸出，美方替我們賣，顧立雄部長說樂見其成。請你說來聽聽看，我們的劍翔這麼棒，可以讓美方貼我們的牌，就是貼它的牌啦！會不會到時候又賣回來給我們啊？李院長可以講。"],["李院長世強：目前正在進行的合作案裡面沒有這樣子的規劃。"],["賴委員士葆：它有貼牌不是嗎？"],["李院長世強：還沒有到這個程度。"],["賴委員士葆：我們的顧部長說樂見其成耶！我們的消息這樣講，顧部長樂見其成他們貼牌！"],["李院長世強：我們期待可以往這個方向發展。"],["賴委員士葆：樂見美國貼它的牌，用我們的東西是不是？請部長回答一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我沒有特定指哪一個無人機，我現在只是在說我們希望達成一個國際供應鏈裡面的一環。我想主要是在做產業分工這樣的一個說明，不是在特別地指定哪一個項目或哪一個……"],["賴委員士葆：因為你那時候講這個話是針對無人機，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：因為後來這個標題就一直拉到這個地方去，我講話的重點應該是在說我們要進入美國為主導的國際供應鏈裡面的一環。"],["賴委員士葆：好，這個我替你補充啦！你是律師，比較精準。你講的是不是就是針對非紅色供應鏈？我們join進來，也歡迎美國拿所有中科院發展出來的東西貼牌，本席這樣說對吧？可以嗎？Acceptable？"],["李院長世強：委員，不是說歡迎他們貼牌，我們希望能夠在這個國防供應鏈扮演相當的角色，彼此截長補短。"],["賴委員士葆：只說角色的話，大家聽不懂啦！那就叫貼牌，就是歡迎貼牌。可以嗎？院長。"],["顧部長立雄：我不認為是這樣的說法，我們是希望成為供應鏈裡面的一環，而且我們有相關的強項，是憑藉能力成為供應鏈的一環。"],["賴委員士葆：你知道供應鏈的意思嗎？Value Chain、Supply Chain，就是我們製造、設計，Marketing由美國負責，讓他們貼牌去賣，這個很好啊！有什麼不對呢？從企業的經營角度來說，OK啊！這有什麼不好？你們怕什麼？本席不知道你們在怕什麼。"],["顧部長立雄：我沒有辦法清楚地理解您所謂的「貼牌」這兩個字，因為媒體用「貼牌」這兩個字，所以你現在也用「貼牌」這兩個字……"],["賴委員士葆：本席說的具體一點，臺灣的中科院設計、製造，包括研發啦！美國做Marketing，這樣可以嗎？"],["李院長世強：可以。"],["賴委員士葆：可以嘛！行銷策略就包括貼牌。貼牌是比較淺顯的說法，就是Branding，品牌行銷，到時候品牌就打上MADE IN USA，但裡面的東西是我們的，不過本席懷疑能不能做到啦！請中科院院長回答一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我們的意思應該是，我們可以擔任產品的供應商、元件供應商，或者共同開發，或者我們被授權等等，這些都是相關的、可能的機會嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：他們做Marketing，沒錯啊！請問無人機最關鍵的技術是什麼？請院長說明。"],["李院長世強：委員，無人機最關鍵的技術，就我來說的話，第一個，它要能完全無人，把人力的操縱降到最低；第二個，匿蹤和噪音降低。"],["賴委員士葆：照相最重要不是嗎？包括攝影。"],["李院長世強：這個是選配。"],["賴委員士葆：我們可以自己做嗎？我們的技術是不是成熟的？"],["李院長世強：我們今天早上有答詢過，我們現在只要把某一個技術克服，等到那個機器到了，我們也克服技術以後，的確，我們是有這個機會。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！「驚驚袂著等」，本席替你們吹噓，但是你們卻不敢說。中科院做設計、研發、製造，然後美國貼牌，這樣多讚，但是你們卻不敢說，奇怪！好啦！謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君代）：接下來請林憶君召委上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},{"id":"156112","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156112","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b2c736b572b5bbad26b4c0e929d5f577fce0a1e5c1d8db796d074087a6b2f41335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:31:52 - 11:40:06","影片長度":"00:08:14","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:31:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:40:06+08:00","duration":494,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.265968750000003,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.430343750000002,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.442843750000002,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.560343750000001,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.36596875,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.93909375,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.81221875,"end":25.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.27159375,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.85346875,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.70096875,"end":33.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.21971875,"end":36.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.61596875,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.22971875,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.07721875,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.228468750000005,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.034093750000004,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.63534375,"end":74.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.85471875,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.97659375,"end":78.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.14096875,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.29221875,"end":91.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.70034375,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.24409375,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.68221875,"end":107.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.55409375,"end":111.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.06409375000001,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.43471875,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.14346875000001,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.54409375,"end":123.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.21409375,"end":132.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.00596875000002,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.88346875000002,"end":133.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.13659375,"end":139.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.84034375000002,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.35909375,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.06221875,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.57596875000002,"end":168.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.43096875,"end":167.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.89909375000002,"end":172.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.23659375,"end":169.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.93221875,"end":178.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.93971875,"end":181.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.56784375,"end":184.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.94721875000002,"end":188.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.11971875,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.97534375,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.16034375,"end":205.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.61471875,"end":215.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.96346875,"end":221.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.31284375,"end":233.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":240.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.00596875000002,"end":243.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.68909375,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.98346875000001,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.18534375000002,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.74596875000003,"end":261.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.06596875,"end":264.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.65221875000003,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.37784375,"end":264.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.25534375,"end":272.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.06846875,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.35909375,"end":280.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.94909375000003,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.02471875000003,"end":283.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.58159375,"end":300.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.80659375000005,"end":307.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.98284375000003,"end":311.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.66159375,"end":316.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.98221875,"end":312.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.94409375000004,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.94346875,"end":318.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.47909375,"end":320.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.45346875,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.58346875,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.94909375000003,"end":337.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.32409375000003,"end":342.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.91409375,"end":345.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.23034375000003,"end":345.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.60971875,"end":348.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.88784375,"end":356.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.78534375000004,"end":358.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.40096875,"end":363.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.24409375000005,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.25596875,"end":371.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.37784375,"end":376.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.40659375,"end":383.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.59971875,"end":390.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.09221875000003,"end":393.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.29846875000004,"end":394.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.44159375000004,"end":397.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.58909375,"end":398.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.52971875000003,"end":404.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.25471875000005,"end":432.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.14471875000004,"end":437.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.00471875000005,"end":446.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.10471875,"end":447.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.83034375000005,"end":449.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.00284375,"end":454.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.01909375,"end":454.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.05284375,"end":456.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.37346875000003,"end":454.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.56284375,"end":474.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.77534375000005,"end":483.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.03534375000004,"end":485.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.17034375000003,"end":485.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.22096875000005,"end":485.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.89596875,"end":492.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.82784375000006,"end":490.72221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.594,"end":14.757,"text":"謝謝主席我請行政院蘇永富處長還有我們何部長來我先請處長回一下這個今天提出這個壯世代請問行政院的態度是什麼"},{"start":34.489,"end":49.389,"text":"謝謝委員那依照10月17號國會在最新的人口推估的部分我們明年就要進入超高齡的社會然後2070年的話我們老人人口的比例是佔到46.5"},{"start":51.351,"end":77.39,"text":"在全世界裡面我們僅次以南韓的47.5我們更比日本38.7還高所以為了這個高齡社會我們是很快速的在人口老化所以吳委員提出了有關於壯世代的話我們現在目前在高齡社會白皮書因為高齡社會對策方案之外之後再提壯世代"},{"start":79.215,"end":107.535,"text":"院長執政政委已經開了3次專案會議那我們在10月31號的話會請勞動部會會長各部會的提了一個壯世代的現在齁來我查一下話你現在說有什麼老人福利或中高齡三十幾大堆啊骨肉骨瘦就是大堆齁啊沒有統合名稱有沒有統合就剛才廖偉祥講的那老人齁你自己說叫老人他很不會送的"},{"start":108.915,"end":122.98,"text":"所以用壯世代這個名我講不錯啊對於你呢?我們台灣的輸送率全世界最低的名所以你現在用你現在這裡的保守我跟你講生意競爭也是一樣越來越久"},{"start":124.544,"end":128.409,"text":"吳春城提出來怎麼會那麼多人給他連署我也是共同提案嘛吼"},{"start":140.142,"end":156.602,"text":"所以民進黨、國民黨、民眾黨、大家都一起去。今天現在要站出來審一下而已,當然啦,這樣是比較倉促,但是大家要說要公聽會、要辦協調會什麼的,都可以,我一定是照辦,但是我們希望"},{"start":157.643,"end":181.294,"text":"行政院用一個任務編輯,院長什麼交代,這樣就有多大效率,陳時中來扶植陳時中就老婆坐在那邊,就給我們去寵老人的定義的話是在老人福利法,這是國際上的話,我們65歲是老人那壯世代的部分在國際上現在是沒有定義的"},{"start":182.628,"end":182.828,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":206.69,"end":222.95,"text":"我們現在針對壯世代這個議題的部分來講 院裡面也高度重視所以陳政委員開了參辭會 剛才也報告過他主事來講已經由院長主持的社會福利推動委員會下設的一個專案小組由陳時中政委來負責"},{"start":224.091,"end":232.617,"text":"我們10月31號也會把在勞動部這一個方案推在執行方面我們認為用方案計畫來推就可以了"},{"start":254.251,"end":254.291,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":273.103,"end":280.225,"text":"每一年的儲蓄率又有20幾%所以我們每一年的那個錢可以用的是四五兆五兆多所以我們的金管會啊我們的那個都都都都不知道怎麼處理這都可以做很多事情"},{"start":301.874,"end":302.435,"text":"委員．蘇清泉"},{"start":317.14,"end":343.053,"text":"他老公很清楚啊他什麼病律用阿丁文寫用德文寫喔 藥師會我都沒有 可能他們高大時代都是大家所以現在的醫療院所醫生65歲也沒有退啊公家醫院現在也是66到70是一年一年聘啊然後到70歲以上就變成顧問醫師那像高一退下來的教授我們在東港請他們還身強體壯啊80歲"},{"start":347.253,"end":368.381,"text":"還會很公平還會怕踢足球所以Case by Case所以說65歲以上就沒有辦法工作那是笑話那護理的更糟糕護理的幾乎35歲以上的不可以上班啦過年啦一千個禮喔太可惜了啦每年進入職場的20歲到24歲的進入職場稀有情郎"},{"start":374.603,"end":398.393,"text":"結果30幾歲退出組長：也4、5千人所以林俊宇說什麼要到2030年要給幾萬人的副理組長我才看他怎麼做所以那個不簡單所以勞動部我覺得你來主責也不錯啦因為事實上這個跟你們最有關係啦那個行政院長蘇先生我感覺他這要繼續撒"},{"start":400.73,"end":403.254,"text":"繼續審然後如果民進黨這邊有提一個法案我們一起來審"},{"start":404.383,"end":428.839,"text":"那看看怎麼改當然這個裏面有一些還要再改那公聽會一次不夠我們辦兩次幾次都可以我認為這是一個思維的改變啊也不要一直排斥啦啊任務編組我還是不放心啦所以要把要把要把我們啊次長先問一下齁你的65歲以上的健保他要自己操你什麼叫他就一定要對他怕就要讓他怕到"},{"start":433.208,"end":433.488,"text":"蘇清泉議員吳春城"},{"start":457.903,"end":465.545,"text":"我自己自己有的財富還不錯的,有讓他自己繳嘛,這個不用到什麼一定要給兒女掛在兒女身上,年輕人一定很辛苦,這個也要改好不好,不改我主動會幫你改嘛。"},{"start":485.43,"end":487.074,"text":"蘇清泉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時32分）謝謝主席。我請行政院蘇永富處長，還有何部長。我先請處長回應一下，今天提出這個有關壯世代的案子，請問行政院的態度是什麼？"],["蘇處長永富：謝謝委員。依照10月17日國發會在最新的人口推估的部分，我們明年就要進入超高齡的社會，2070年我們老人人口的比例是占到46.5%，在全世界裡面，我們僅次於南韓的47.5%，我們更比日本的38.7%還高，所以未來進入高齡社會，我們是很快速地在人口老化，所以吳委員提出了有關壯世代的法案，我們目前在高齡社會白皮書、因應超高齡社會對策方案之外，之後再提壯世代對策，院長指示陳時中政務委員，已經開了三次專案會議，那我們在10月31日，勞動部會彙整各部會的意見，提了一個壯世代的……"],["蘇委員清泉：我插一下話，你們現在提了一些老人福利法、中高齡相關政策上一大堆，各式各樣的一大堆，沒有統合，名稱也沒統合，就剛剛廖偉翔講的，老人被你叫老人，他們很不爽，所以壯世代這個名字，我覺得不錯。","第二，我們臺灣的出生率全世界最後一名，所以用你們現在提的這些招數，我跟你說，生小孩也是一樣越來越少，老人也是越來越老，所以改一個想法，改一個方向，或是統合一下，不然的話，吳春城提出來，怎麼會那麼多人給他連署？我也是共同提案人。所以民進黨、國民黨、民眾黨大家都關注，到今天只是拿出來審一下，當然這樣是比較倉促，但是大家說要公聽會、要辦協調會都可以，我一定是照辦，但是我們希望行政院用一個任務編組，院長交代，這樣就有很大的效率，陳時中來負責，陳時中也不做了，要怎麼辦？換何佩珊去做？"],["蘇處長永富：跟召委報告，有關於老人的定義，是在老人福利法，按照國際上的定義，我們是65歲是老人。那壯世代的部分，在國際上現在是沒有定義的，壯世代是國際上沒有定義的，那我們要考慮到我們的國情，我們現在如果以本法草案裡面定義的壯世代是55歲的國民的話，那我們現在還有超過13%的人是失能人口，失能人口那個部分被說是壯世代，我想這個名詞用法律去定義它的名詞定義，就要考慮。","第二個，我們現在針對壯世代這個議題，院裡面也高度重視，所以陳政務委員已經開了三次會，剛才也報告過，在組織上，已經有院長主持的社會福利推動委員會下設的一個專案小組，有陳時中政委來負責，我們10月31日也會把在勞動部這個方案推出，所以在執行方面，我們認為用方案計畫來推就可以了。"],["蘇委員清泉：專案計畫就是臨時編組、任務編組，因人設事，如果那個人沒有了，這個編組就沒有用了。處長，你聽一下，我要再問的第二個問題，部長，我們65歲以上的男人還在上班的才十幾%，然後女性更少，只有六點多%，比韓國和日本的二、三十%或三、四十%，這一塊真的要改善，這七、八百萬人沒有好好利用，實在很可惜。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們現在正在努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！臺灣一年的GDP號稱有23兆臺幣，那每一年的儲蓄率又有二十幾%，所以我們每一年可以用的錢是四、五兆多，所以我們的金管會等單位都不知道錢那麼多要怎麼處理，這些都可以做很多事情，讓達到可以退休年紀的人以後還可以繼續工作，我們醫生根本就沒有退休年齡，我跟大家報告，我岳父90歲還在看婦產科門診，我跟他說：「還有人要給你看，我真的很佩服你。」他頭腦很清楚，他寫避孕藥用拉丁文寫，用德文寫，我說「夭壽」，我都不會。他們在古早時代都是讀原文。所以現在的醫療院所醫師65歲也沒有退，公家醫院現在也是，66歲到70歲的醫師是一年一年聘，然後到70歲以上就變成顧問醫師。像高醫退下來的教授，我們在東港請他們來看診，他們還身強體壯啊，80歲還會追公車，還會打網球。所以要case by case。所以說65歲以上就沒有辦法工作，那是笑話。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：護理的更糟糕，護理的幾乎35歲以上就不要上班了，說要帶小孩，有一千個理由，太可惜了啦。每年進入職場的，20歲到24歲的，進入職場的有四、五千人，結果三十幾歲退出職場的也有四、五千人，所以林靜儀說什麼到2030年要多幾萬名護理組長，我再看他怎麼做。所以那個不簡單，所以勞動部，我覺得你在主責也不錯啦，因為事實上這個跟你們最有關係啦。至於行政院這邊，蘇先生，我覺得他要繼續推、繼續推，然後如果民進黨這邊有提法案，我們一起來審，看看怎麼改，當然這個裡面有一些還要再改，公聽會一次不夠，我們辦兩次，幾次都可以，我覺得這是一個思維的改變，也不要一直排斥，任務編組我還是不放心。","次長，最後一點，65歲以上的健保，有人要自己繳，你們為什麼叫他一定要跟著他兒子，要讓他兒子繳？很多65歲以上的人說要自己繳，他們自己的經濟就不錯，你們叫他們讓兒子繳，這是造成年輕人更大的負擔而已啊，這個要改，馬上改，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為現在40年次、50年次那一代是最苦的時代，資源最匱乏，但是他們也是又勤儉，又小氣，現在大家都有存一些財富，也比年輕人經濟狀況好，當然有些是失能的或有其他狀況的，當然一定有，但是這些人他們自己有辦法養活自己，自己的財富還不錯的，你就讓他們自己繳嘛，這個不用一定要掛在兒女身上，年輕人已經很艱苦了，這個馬上來改，好不好？你不改，我主動會幫你改。","好，我當召委，不能浪費時間。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：好，接續我們請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156111","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156111","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b721b5403638476916b4c0e929d5f577fce0a1e5c1d8db796c918614e2a6c40d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:23:56 - 11:31:45","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:23:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:31:45+08:00","duration":469,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.050968750000001,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.160343750000003,"end":9.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.324718750000002,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.906593750000003,"end":26.676593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.08159375,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.63659375,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.09034375,"end":52.579718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.99596875,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.66034375000001,"end":85.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.45221875,"end":96.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.52221875000001,"end":116.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.84409375000001,"end":126.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.02409375,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.99784375000002,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.36846875,"end":135.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.30909375000002,"end":138.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.57784375,"end":172.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.78034375000001,"end":182.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.31471875000003,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.34846875000002,"end":183.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.05721875,"end":183.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.29346875000002,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.69846875000002,"end":185.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.90034375000002,"end":188.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.96784375000001,"end":189.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.43596875,"end":198.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.13534375,"end":198.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.31221875,"end":198.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.32909375,"end":228.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.58596875,"end":235.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.91034375,"end":232.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.07846875,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.41034375,"end":254.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.52284375000002,"end":261.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.22659375,"end":270.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.42346875000004,"end":278.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.68471875,"end":273.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.68409375000005,"end":276.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.00034375,"end":295.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.72971875,"end":281.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.36221875,"end":284.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.47034375000004,"end":293.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.41534375000003,"end":295.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.39409375,"end":308.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.64096875,"end":324.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.43596875000003,"end":329.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.19034375,"end":334.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.37534375,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.46284375000005,"end":342.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.17971875,"end":344.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.20909375,"end":350.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.55846875000003,"end":350.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.45284375,"end":351.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.48659375,"end":388.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.50346875,"end":354.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.50284375,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.97096875,"end":356.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.87659375000004,"end":367.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.71534375000005,"end":373.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.65159375,"end":376.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.93784375,"end":380.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.03909375,"end":380.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.35971875,"end":380.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.05471875,"end":392.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.29096875000005,"end":388.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.81346875,"end":409.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.93346875000003,"end":408.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.09346875,"end":425.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.00034375,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.60659375,"end":423.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.80846875000003,"end":425.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.20909375,"end":432.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.06471875000005,"end":432.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.97596875000005,"end":464.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.77284375000005,"end":437.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.25784375,"end":439.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.78846875000005,"end":446.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.84034375000005,"end":464.93721875000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.343,"end":7.544,"text":"主席"},{"start":13.13,"end":38.895,"text":"議員好部長好部長我們今天討論這個壯世代跟產業發展的問題那在你夜館的主要就是中高齡就業促進法這個上路近4年來他是有成長但是成長得很緩慢你可以看到這個圖如果我們用壯世代的定義吳春城委員他講的55歲以上的話那他幾乎是一年一趴的這個成長率"},{"start":39.707,"end":59.764,"text":"其實是一個緩慢的成長,非常的有限所以我想今天有那麼多的部會來我也覺得促進中高齡就業也不是只有勞動部的責任因為這當中涉及到很多產業的面向,雇主願不願意去禁用然後也涉及到職務再設計的一個問題"},{"start":62.046,"end":62.146,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":79.413,"end":96.227,"text":"經濟委員會主審這個不是放在未還委員會所以表示兩個部會都有責任那我要問的是像經濟部我先問一下次長你比較少來未還委員會你們在中高齡就業的方面你們有沒有提供什麼樣的獎勵跟措施"},{"start":96.827,"end":110.572,"text":"我們其實在產生條例就有一些租稅業會再來就是在一些中高齡一些相關的輔技或是一些導入一些智慧科技這個我們在產業發展上我們都有極力在推動而且我們跟勞動部在"},{"start":112.073,"end":130.538,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":131.292,"end":147.967,"text":"你們是缺人做解決,你不是引進就業機會嗎?對不對?你是把它數位化之後減少用人。你不是增加就業率啊?這個方向性是不一樣的,我們講的是促進他的就業。那我讓兩位看一下,就是說在韓國,他們有高齡者就業促進法。"},{"start":148.928,"end":171.515,"text":"他們的主動積極的精神就是他會去篩選160種適合中高齡者就業的職類我就問兩位我們目前在臺灣我們要促進中高齡的就業我們有沒有很細膩的去篩選哪些行業別他其實是比較適合中高齡在就業的目前有沒有有沒有羅列出來"},{"start":172.891,"end":172.911,"text":"韓國執委"},{"start":187.938,"end":206.708,"text":"你們經濟部有沒有在做沒有我們沒有因為我們是配合勞動部如果這個職類設計出來那我們要配合比如說人才培訓對這個就是我看到的問題啦事實上經濟部在這一個角色上面是蠻消極的所以我想這是為什麼吳委員才會有提到一個產業發展的概念"},{"start":207.068,"end":227.981,"text":"就是說經濟部也應該與時俱進啊,邁向高齡化的社會這個你們要看到我們的勞動市場會有越來越多的中高齡者就是說你現場要運用中高齡者但是在這個部分如果經濟部沒有想法沒有主動性跟勞動部一起就是來思考比如說你們對產業是最了解的啊"},{"start":228.641,"end":244.981,"text":"那我看現在產業部分也是勞動部在負責啊沒有沒有沒有你們對於現場其實哪一些適合中高齡就業我覺得經濟部也應該提出你們的構想啊因為你們轄下管那麼多的中小企業是都你們管的呢?不是勞動部你管的呢?"},{"start":246.002,"end":268.682,"text":"老公不是管勞工啊那企業老闆雇主這邊他是不是他的職場環境應該怎麼做我覺得經濟部也應該要加入好不好那個我們都有跟而且職場環境又是中高齡這種職場環境這個我們那我就要求就是這個部長可不可以答應我們最快什麼時間我們可以篩選出適合中高齡就業的這些職類"},{"start":269.363,"end":269.523,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":297.19,"end":321.557,"text":"韓國他們其實有義務優先禁用就是55歲以上的族群但是其實看我們現在的中高齡就業促進法我們比較重輔導但是我們沒有一個在法令上面去希望企業可以有優先僱用跟禁用的這樣的一個條款所以就會變成在實務上面你只能用獎勵啦你剛剛也講你們有很多的獎勵計畫但是獎勵一過之後"},{"start":324.558,"end":349.126,"text":"就是企業感覺本身也沒什麼動力也沒有什麼強制力這一塊你們未來要怎麼解決委員其實很感謝大院委員中小企業這一次加薪抵稅有針對65以上那我們就給了加薪抵稅這樣的誘因這是非常謝謝委員那當然禁用可是禁用你要不要用一個強制性的概念在法律裡面規定"},{"start":351.547,"end":367.826,"text":"我要你們思考的就是說韓國是一種模式它很積極然後它也才一種就是必須優先禁用的概念但是我們台灣我們沒有那我們其實比較是重輔導用獎對但是"},{"start":368.146,"end":378.898,"text":"你可以看到如果過去4年它的成長是這麼的緩慢可能也遇到了瓶頸還有剛剛提到的現在實務上你有一些的獎勵的確是獎勵期過了看起來是衝著獎勵而來獎勵期過了然後就失去那個動力我覺得這一些的問題都必須要解決跟處理"},{"start":388.089,"end":391.934,"text":"委員過去幾年每年成長1%其實有10萬人欸其實也沒有很差啦真的可是因為而且過去3年有疫情那個整個內需的就業市場其實中共連主力都會在內需就業市場"},{"start":405.45,"end":420.436,"text":"所以再來的成長率應該是會蠻可觀的你預計會成長幾%?我們希望再來還是每年至少一定要10萬以上你有沒有設定目標?我們有一個70%的目標我們有一個70%的目標你現在67嘛現在大概67%你們希望明年嗎?可以達到70%?我們希望能盡快達到70%的目標明年嗎?這我不敢這樣子打包票可是希望能盡快來達到好嗎?對好"},{"start":433.641,"end":460.698,"text":"我覺得中高齡就業已經是一個趨勢也是我們不得不面對的一個問題那所以我希望這件事情勞動部要再加把勁有成長但是還不夠那經濟部今天來那麼多部會這個也不是只有勞動部的責任我希望各部會都要動起來好不好就是我們促進中高齡的就業特別是女性的部分我們讓他可以28.3%他們渴望重返職場希望他們這樣渴望"},{"start":461.058,"end":462.721,"text":"都可以變成真正的就業"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（11時24分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：好。請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我們今天討論壯世代跟產業發展的問題，你業管的主要就是中高齡就業促進法，上路近四年來，中高齡就業有成長，但是成長得很緩慢，你可以看到這個圖，如果我們對壯世代的定義是吳春城委員講的55歲以上的話，那幾乎是一年1%的成長率，其實是一個緩慢的成長，非常地有限，所以我想今天有那麼多的部會來，我也覺得促進中高齡就業也不是只有勞動部的責任，因為這當中涉及到很多產業的面向，雇主願不願意去進用，然後也涉及到職務再設計的一個問題，所以今天其實經濟部也有來，我們是不是也請經濟部連次長上來？這個問題我覺得是要共同來推動，所以早上還有委員在說吳委員的法應該要由經濟委員會主審，這個不是放在衛環委員會，所以表示兩個部會都有責任，那我要問的是，像經濟部，我先問一下次長，你比較少來衛環委員會，在中高齡就業的方面，你們有沒有提供什麼樣的獎勵跟措施？"],["連次長錦漳：其實在產創條例裡，我們就有一些租稅優惠；那再來就是在一些中高齡一些相關的輔具，或是導入一些智慧科技，在產業的發展上，我們都有極力在推動，而且我們跟勞動部在做一些中高齡的職場友善方面，我們也在跟勞動部溝通。"],["王委員育敏：那職務再設計呢？譬如說，服務業和旅宿業，現在缺工缺得這麼厲害，怎麼樣透過職務再設計，讓一些中高齡的婦女可以進入職場？"],["連次長錦漳：我們導入數位科技，把缺人的這一部分，去做一些解決。"],["王委員育敏：你們是就缺人去解決，不是引進就業機會嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["王委員育敏：你是把數位化之後減少用人。"],["連次長錦漳：減少用人。"],["王委員育敏：你不是增加就業率，這個方向性是不一樣的，我們講的是促進就業。我讓兩位看一下，在韓國，他們有高齡者就業促進法，他們的主動積極的精神就是，他們會去篩選160種適合中高齡者就業的職類，我就問兩位，目前在臺灣，我們要促進中高齡的就業，我們有沒有很細膩地去篩選哪些行業別是比較適合中高齡再就業的？目前有沒有？有沒有羅列出來？"],["何部長佩珊：有，委員，我們正在討論中，就是我們也要參考韓國，訂出一個指引，然後把……"],["王委員育敏：還在討論中嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對，把職務再設計的指引訂出來。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我問一下，經濟部，你有什麼角色？你知不知道韓國有這樣的做法？你們經濟部有沒有在做？沒有。"],["連次長錦漳：我們沒有，因為我們是配合勞動部，如果這個職類設計出來，那我們要配合，譬如說：人才培訓或相關的……"],["王委員育敏：這個就是我看到的問題，事實上經濟部在這一個角色上面是滿消極的，所以我想這是為什麼吳委員提到一個產業發展的概念，就是說，經濟部也應該與時俱進，邁向高齡化的社會，你們要看到我們的勞動市場會有越來越多的中高齡者，就是說，現場要運用中高齡者，但是在這個部分，如果經濟部沒有想法，沒有主動性，跟勞動部一起來思考，比如說你們對產業是最了解的，那我看現在產業部分也是勞動部在負責。"],["連次長錦漳：沒有，沒有，沒有。"],["王委員育敏：對於現場哪一些適合中高齡就業，我覺得經濟部也應該提出你們的構想，因為你們轄下管那麼多的中小企業，都是你們在管的，不是勞動部在管的，對不對？勞動部是管勞工，企業老闆、雇主這邊，他的職場環境應該怎麼做，我覺得經濟部也應該要加入，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：有，那個我們都有跟……而且職場環境，尤其是中高齡這種職場環境，這個我們都有。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我就要求部長，你可不可以答應最快什麼時間可以篩選出適合中高齡就業的職位？何時可以盤點出來？"],["何部長佩珊：明年2月就會訂出來。"],["王委員育敏：明年2月嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：對對對。"],["王委員育敏：有一個的期程嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：那個叫做職務再設計指引，我們正在篩選職類。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我要求這個部分要優先訂出來。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["王委員育敏：因為這才是一個很具象、很具體的。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：我們要如何把這些中高齡的人力導引進適合他們的職類，不能瞎子摸象，那不會成功，提升就業率也不會成功，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：另外，韓國有義務優先進用，就是55歲以上的族群優先進用，但是看我們現在的中高齡就業促進法，我們比較重輔導，但是我們沒有一個在法令上面去希望企業可以優先僱用跟進用的條款，所以就會變成在實務上面只能用獎勵，你剛剛也講你們有很多的獎勵計畫，但是獎勵一過之後，企業本身也沒什麼動力，也沒有什麼強制力，這一塊你們未來要怎麼解決？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實很感謝大院委員，中小企業這一次加薪抵稅，有針對65歲以上，那我們就給了加薪抵稅這樣的誘因，真是非常謝謝委員。可是對於進用，要不要用一個強制性的概念在法律裡面規定，這個我們真的也……"],["王委員育敏：我要你們思考的就是，韓國是一種模式，它很積極，然後它也採一種必須優先進用的概念，但是我們臺灣沒有，我們其實比較重視輔導，用獎勵，但是你可以看到，如果過去四年它的成長是這麼地緩慢，可能也遇到了瓶頸，還有剛剛提到的，現在實務上也有一些獎勵，的確是獎勵期過了，看起來是衝著獎勵而來，獎勵期過了，然後就失去那個動力，我覺得這一些問題必須要解決跟處理，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，過去幾年每年成長1%，其實有10萬人，其實也沒有很差啦。而且過去三年有疫情，整個內需的就業市場，其實中高齡主力都會在內需就業市場，所以帶來的成長率應該是會滿可觀的。"],["王委員育敏：你預計會成長幾%？"],["何部長佩珊：我們希望再來還是每年至少一定要10萬以上。"],["王委員育敏：你有沒有設定目標？"],["何部長佩珊：我們有一個70%的目標，因為現在是67%，我們希望能夠儘快達到70%的目標。"],["王委員育敏：明年可以達到70%？"],["何部長佩珊：我不敢這樣子打包票，可是希望能儘快來達到，好嗎？"],["王委員育敏：好，我覺得中高齡就業已經是一個趨勢，也是我們不得不面對的一個問題。"],["何部長佩珊：是是是。"],["王委員育敏：所以我希望這件事情勞動部要再加把勁，有成長，但是還不夠。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：經濟部，今天來那麼多部會，這個也不是只有勞動部的責任，我希望各部會都要動起來，好不好？我們促進中高齡的就業，特別是女性的部分，我們讓他們可以就業，他們有28.3%渴望重返職場，他們這樣渴望，我希望都可以變成真正的就業。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（邱委員鎮軍代）：好，謝謝王育敏委員。","接下來，我們邀請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"157406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157406","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/81360d1d2ba1135dde79a0723e28ca971a854d634de4a24cafbb3a16f545066fb88d7f28b768b82a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"12:14:37 - 12:31:04","影片長度":"00:16:27","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:14:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:31:04+08:00","duration":987,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.69721875,"end":2.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.71409375,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":3.0178437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":5.835968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":6.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.949718750000001,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.907218750000002,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.25721875,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.910343750000003,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.24784375,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.46721875,"end":16.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.48409375,"end":16.500968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.500968750000002,"end":16.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.496593750000002,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.04034375,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.238468750000003,"end":24.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.870968750000003,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.410968750000002,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.25784375,"end":34.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.67096875,"end":41.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.032843750000005,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.002843750000004,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.42034375,"end":48.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.45784375,"end":50.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.297218750000006,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.642843750000004,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.23346875,"end":56.494718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.93346875,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.56596875,"end":61.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.14784375000001,"end":63.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.869093750000005,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.71221875,"end":70.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.77096875000001,"end":72.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.13346875,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.88409375,"end":87.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.59534375000001,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.48096875,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.12221875,"end":93.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.79721875,"end":92.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.49721875,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.68659375,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.85909375,"end":107.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.52034375000001,"end":108.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.24596875,"end":114.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.69659375,"end":128.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.83784375000002,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.10596875000002,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.70909375000002,"end":145.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.43846875,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.49284375000002,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.32346875000002,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.09534375,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.74846875,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.27909375000002,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.45596875,"end":172.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.98284375,"end":176.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.47596875000002,"end":179.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.13784375,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.59221875,"end":192.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.23284375,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.45159375,"end":199.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.66221875000002,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.62784375,"end":215.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.31784375,"end":216.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.43159375000002,"end":218.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.68471875,"end":218.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.49034375000002,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.82784375000003,"end":225.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.00409375,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.04159375,"end":235.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.29471875000002,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.88034375,"end":239.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.29346875000002,"end":242.18721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.35596875000002,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.37659375,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.34971875000002,"end":273.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.76471875000004,"end":274.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.19909375000003,"end":276.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.14409375,"end":282.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.44284375,"end":299.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.70159375000003,"end":304.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.45221875000004,"end":303.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.40096875,"end":308.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.25284375,"end":328.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.05596875000003,"end":326.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.62096875000003,"end":329.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.73471875,"end":337.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.02034375,"end":340.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.03721875,"end":339.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.59784375000004,"end":359.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.58659375,"end":360.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.70034375,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.94909375000003,"end":362.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.50159375000004,"end":364.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.07096875,"end":381.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.28971875,"end":369.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.99659375000005,"end":382.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.01346875,"end":394.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.95659375,"end":396.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.03221875,"end":399.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.50846875,"end":402.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.97221875,"end":405.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.04346875000005,"end":426.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.98284375000003,"end":417.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.60596875000005,"end":437.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.25971875000005,"end":426.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.85784375000003,"end":433.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.29596875000004,"end":458.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.33471875000004,"end":462.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.13159375000004,"end":464.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.88659375000003,"end":472.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.42971875,"end":473.40846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.48034375000003,"end":472.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.40846875000005,"end":476.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.01971875000004,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.74471875,"end":485.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.08159375,"end":487.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.00971875000005,"end":488.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":488.59596875000005,"end":491.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.22409375,"end":492.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":492.24096875000004,"end":497.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.13471875000005,"end":512.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.53721875,"end":517.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.6215937500001,"end":514.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.49034375,"end":520.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.29971875,"end":528.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.79659375,"end":539.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.3022187500001,"end":532.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.9097187500001,"end":534.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.39034375,"end":535.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.94721875,"end":536.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.42346875,"end":550.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.1897187500001,"end":554.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.87659375,"end":556.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.56846875,"end":558.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.4922187500001,"end":560.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.63534375,"end":571.4522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.1272187500001,"end":573.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.8147187500001,"end":577.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.3203437500001,"end":580.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.2397187500001,"end":582.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.43346875,"end":588.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.5803437500001,"end":602.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.53159375,"end":604.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.13471875,"end":617.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.2803437499999,"end":623.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":621.3515937500001,"end":621.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":623.4609687500001,"end":623.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.5959687500001,"end":634.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.63221875,"end":639.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.40346875,"end":645.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.7747187500001,"end":641.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.07784375,"end":645.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.1453437499999,"end":651.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.65909375,"end":654.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":654.78096875,"end":661.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.8815937500001,"end":659.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.67471875,"end":660.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.08784375,"end":666.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":662.22284375,"end":662.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":663.8090937500001,"end":663.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":665.3784687500001,"end":665.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.9140937500001,"end":674.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":667.0490937500001,"end":668.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":670.8797187499999,"end":671.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.9128437500001,"end":680.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.6672187500001,"end":701.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.26721875,"end":706.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.9965937500001,"end":706.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.7053437500001,"end":707.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.9922187500001,"end":716.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.8134687500001,"end":723.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.5559687500001,"end":717.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.76596875,"end":739.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.9384687500001,"end":727.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.24471875,"end":751.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.23596875,"end":740.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.07534375,"end":743.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":751.7109687500001,"end":753.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.1240937500002,"end":754.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.9509687500001,"end":757.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":756.8915937500001,"end":757.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.70159375,"end":760.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.3090937500001,"end":758.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.0090937500001,"end":763.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.1140937499999,"end":766.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.0672187499999,"end":768.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.36221875,"end":773.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.67784375,"end":777.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.41596875,"end":777.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.22159375,"end":782.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.32221875,"end":782.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.96346875,"end":784.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.7859687499999,"end":785.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.06846875,"end":791.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.0678437500001,"end":793.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.3034687500001,"end":795.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":796.49721875,"end":799.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.31096875,"end":811.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":812.78159375,"end":814.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.1103437500001,"end":815.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":816.1397187500002,"end":816.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.4053437500002,"end":818.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.98721875,"end":820.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":822.26534375,"end":824.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.15909375,"end":832.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.1453437500002,"end":834.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.6809687500001,"end":837.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":838.4990937500002,"end":843.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.48159375,"end":842.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.15221875,"end":846.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.2153437500001,"end":854.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.4890937500002,"end":848.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.52284375,"end":848.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.83409375,"end":857.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.0022187500001,"end":860.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":860.7065937500001,"end":863.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":864.3515937500001,"end":867.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":867.64221875,"end":868.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.5828437500002,"end":870.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.9665937500001,"end":871.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.4853437500001,"end":874.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.4934687500001,"end":875.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.57784375,"end":877.3115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":878.2397187500001,"end":878.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":879.5053437500001,"end":880.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.5390937500001,"end":880.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":880.46721875,"end":900.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.72159375,"end":900.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.3628437500001,"end":900.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":900.3797187500002,"end":904.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.7634687500001,"end":903.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":905.2734687500001,"end":920.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":920.1909687500001,"end":920.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":920.54534375,"end":920.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":920.66346875,"end":935.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":923.8022187500001,"end":923.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":923.8359687500001,"end":923.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":923.9540937500001,"end":924.0047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":927.3797187500002,"end":927.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":927.97034375,"end":928.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":936.17159375,"end":943.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":937.3528437500001,"end":938.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":942.0947187500001,"end":942.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":942.16221875,"end":942.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":943.1240937500002,"end":946.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":946.66784375,"end":951.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":951.49409375,"end":953.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":954.0590937500001,"end":958.8853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":958.34534375,"end":962.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":960.4209687500002,"end":966.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":966.5803437500001,"end":967.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":967.9640937500001,"end":972.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":973.38096875,"end":977.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":978.34221875,"end":981.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":980.3840937500001,"end":980.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":981.97034375,"end":985.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":986.0034687500001,"end":987.06659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.549,"end":24.245,"text":"謝謝主席我請金管委彭主委今天財政部部長沒來齁部長舒服齁那次長齁好彭主委理事長齁委員好那個彭主委我剛才聽到你說很有信心那這一點我覺得你這個精神可嘉啦"},{"start":26.973,"end":41.361,"text":"這個確實需要有相當的勇氣也要有相當的把握那麼這一次賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長他們接觸了這個要打造我們臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心"},{"start":42.436,"end":61.649,"text":"這個大方向都完全正確其實這個目標這個策略我們講了都20幾年了歷來政府大家講過去這個推動大家講的口號講很多也有定一些策略但是做的"},{"start":62.219,"end":89.253,"text":"我認為可能越來越不積極所以導致現在我們這個部分成果其實很差其實不管就這個調查的這個金融指數來講我們臺灣不管是經商的環境人力資本基礎建設所有金融體系發展國家聲望等等這五大項我們怎麼可能說輪到"},{"start":91.212,"end":105.24,"text":"彭主委我們現在輪到後段班全球調查120個城市我們台北我們整個國家我們在這一個部分120個國家裡面我們輪到第73名在5年前2019年我們還有第30名"},{"start":114.778,"end":141.821,"text":"那變成說我們這個名次是逐步下滑了還曾經41名也曾經躍升到18名從5年前開始掉到30名之後逐年下滑那到現在第73名我們已經淪為後段班那當然你現在提出很多好的策略這些想法我認為這些想法很對但是需要財政部"},{"start":142.799,"end":151.923,"text":"也配合啦我就舉例講這個TESATESA這個部分非常正確啊那我們鼓勵國人開TESA這些個人帳戶"},{"start":153.376,"end":158.799,"text":"我們跟財政部溝通過非常非常多的會議那他們的回應是怎樣?我看他們好像不積極嘛"},{"start":180.425,"end":202.539,"text":"其實財政部其實蠻積極主要是我剛剛跟委員報告其實臺灣的複稅政策因為他會牽涉到各個產業的公平性的考量那我們當然也知道政府是一體的那我們想說這部分的話確實我們現在我們剛剛跟財政部談了以後現階段如果要推動立刻要有一個非常非常明確能夠追認上新港的輸稅我在猜臺灣沒有這個條件"},{"start":204.12,"end":223.174,"text":"他財政部就是不可嘛你說他積極做什麼積極保稅就對啦要求他租稅優惠減稅這些不可能啦那個市長委員我說明一下我想不懂啦你們鼓勵當沖降稅不是這樣嗎"},{"start":229.079,"end":230.741,"text":"你還不是說就如習照先前的制度那在鼓勵什麼"},{"start":245.581,"end":273.433,"text":"報告委員因為我們現在對於投資這部分的租稅優惠已經是非常優惠的了因為我們的證券交易所得是完全免稅的然後我們的股利所得我們現在只要你所得在94萬元以下幾乎不用繳稅股利喔我講的是股利喔因為我們有8萬元的可扣抵稅額可以抵減抵減不足還可以退稅那另外呢我們在銀行存款的儲蓄投資所以你認為這些就夠了不是"},{"start":274.633,"end":276.234,"text":"你認為這些就足以我們現在鼓勵國人開這個TISA個人賬戶之類的任何這個優惠?你覺得讓比日本優惠"},{"start":301.785,"end":328.018,"text":"你知道日本總所得是多少嗎你是怎樣叫做比他優惠因為他所減免的額度比我們少我們現在是他們是定額免稅我們像政經教育所得是全額免稅然後我們的儲蓄投資特別扣除我們是27萬元免稅他們的額度只有一部分的額度比我們少很多所以我們比較之下我們真的已經比日本優惠多了"},{"start":329.799,"end":340.185,"text":"我不認為這個叫比日本優惠啦我不認為啦你們財政部就是不積極我隨便舉個例子你就沒說到我再三令五申跟你們說"},{"start":341.653,"end":362.555,"text":"你們應該對九大公營行庫他貸款給這些建商尤其是貸款給這些高負債的建商讓他們去買地養地圈地這就是造成我們臺灣房價節節上升的原因我說你要把這些銀行控管好結果銀行我們要求"},{"start":363.567,"end":381.014,"text":"中央銀行跟財政部你們要求銀行要管控好說那你這些建商借錢去買空地空地貸款的部分一年半內要開工那超過一年半的沒開工多少我問你們你們當然全然不知"},{"start":382.845,"end":399.334,"text":"我們個別就問你們轄管的這九大銀行轄管九大銀行告訴我土地銀行竟然高達5.11%預期的喔到了一年半他沒有開工你們也沒跟他催"},{"start":400.903,"end":427.816,"text":"這麼高的預期呢那你們表示說那你們就縱容他們嗎報告委員其實我們是有配合中央銀行的政策我們有要求我們的公股行庫基本上要去控管這個逾18個月為動工的購地貸款控管成這個樣子對 但是因為因為土地銀行它本身它就是一個比較特殊的銀行它就是以土地建融融資為主要業務我們問你有沒有去管控你們說有"},{"start":428.456,"end":456.662,"text":"那說好那管控的成績給我們看一問三不知來那個暫停我先問那個我也問一下金管會主委彭主委然後你們銀行局也是同樣的問題我問你們銀行局銀行局也是他說他們都沒調查沒有統計不知道一問三不知請問啊我剛剛說的這個問題是不是該銀行局該財政部財政部因為是九大公銀行戶是他們的嘛"},{"start":457.262,"end":462.623,"text":"那他當然應該知道這個數字是我們一家一家銀行去問出來的"},{"start":463.168,"end":491.663,"text":"每次都這個樣子問你們說公營銀行戶有沒有貸款給鼠條三兄弟也是銀行局也是一問三不知不願意提供市報委員這個齁這個我們在銀行是我們有針對每一家公司的貸款房貸還有土建容的餘額都有做控管但是因為這個這個這個總額管制的部分是央行在在在那你現在推給央行啦不是這個確實我們是有分工來做這件事情"},{"start":492.287,"end":516.798,"text":"所以這個事情是我們問錯人就對也不是這樣講銀行局不用管他轄下的這些銀行是不是有貸款出去的沒有照約定的在一個期限內空地貸款耶一年半這個基本常識耶超過一年半這個應該收回不是嗎銀行局怎麼可以不算"},{"start":522.105,"end":538.654,"text":"報言因為這些是央行的選擇性信用管制那平常我們在檢查所以央行的選擇性信用管制所以就該央行去管就對了你們的意思是這樣是他要選擇性信用管制他做選擇性的就好你們不用做是這樣嗎"},{"start":539.394,"end":540.095,"text":"我現在請問你下回我們問你類似這樣的問題"},{"start":556.656,"end":571.263,"text":"那你回答不回答十大負債高高於70%的建商問你們也是一萬三不知也是我們一家一家趕快去查建商哪一些貸款率過高的"},{"start":572.402,"end":600.684,"text":"結果你們你如果不曉得喔這個有最高的那個第一名負債將近89%啦那你這樣還敢貸款給他你鑄作為虐嘛你借他這些錢讓他去買地養地圈地然後現在利率這麼低他當然敢借啊不是這樣嗎然後你們一問三不知我跟你講我時間有限那個主委我跟你講齁我們資產管理中心的重點就是希望啊國外你的錢來給我們臺灣管"},{"start":602.365,"end":614.684,"text":"好了我大概3個月前就跟你說說我們有一個很矛盾我們臺灣受險的可運用餘額資金這大概32兆32兆70%"},{"start":618.43,"end":633.904,"text":"是被這些壽險業拿去國外投資買國外的債券基金有22兆去買國外的債券基金請問那這個如何說服國際上說你來我們國家你把錢交給我們台灣來管"},{"start":634.705,"end":654.106,"text":"我們自己的錢百分之七十去買國外去給國外管難道我們還說那你錢讓我管那你對誰有說服力我們要對非洲這些小國有說服力嗎我們的給更高明的管難道我們請非洲的你來給我管是這樣嗎"},{"start":655.267,"end":672.473,"text":"不是這樣啦我想過去他會投資這麼多的時空的背景我想現在現在我們希望把他引回來對所以我上次就是講嘛就是說背景就不談啦我就說這樣子我們國內公共建設也需要資金我們剛好每年請他3%、5%"},{"start":675.454,"end":700.376,"text":"轉回我們國內那國內就是要請站你旁邊那個財政部財政部你們就要負起責任嘛你們就教教其他交通部內政部教他們如何來設立這些債券比方說交通交通有很大的像捷運自償率很高啊他只要通車以後賣票以後對不對各項那個"},{"start":703.66,"end":713.656,"text":"這個內政你像社會住宅你像長照這一些都有自償性啊那這些現在都缺資金啊那我們把國外的這些資金每年3%、5%、7%請他回來"},{"start":716.912,"end":745.807,"text":"是不是又可以充裕我們國內的建設結果財政部也是如如不動沒有報告委員我們其實現在已經跟國發會還有金管會還有財政部對我們共同擬定了一個兆元投資國家發展的方案這裡面中間就有一個非常重要的就是吸引國外就是本國的資金回臺來投資參加我們的公共建設那到現在你做了怎樣有吸引回來了嗎你看談的結果有幾家受選公司預計提揮多少"},{"start":746.667,"end":770.414,"text":"在這個部分我剛剛講我們70%我們大概從10年前就開始我們國家警覺到這個問題那這個大家一直說應該調降調降結果說要調降越降越高當年10年前大概只有56%到4年前64%到今年70%"},{"start":774.758,"end":790.648,"text":"是委員我們也知道就是我們越降越高說要把這個在外面投資的這個金額降低拿回國內結果降成這個樣子有現在就是因為這個剛才跟委員報告就是我們三個部會對現在標準我列幾個國家隨便幾個國家"},{"start":796.551,"end":798.491,"text":"中共我們最討厭的中共2%韓國8.3%日本21.6%美國12%我們70%他們這4個國家加起來還不到我們的一半天啊加起來才30幾%34%這4個國家加起來"},{"start":827.319,"end":832.862,"text":"受險的對外投資金額我們70%他們四個國家加起來才35%天啊"},{"start":838.53,"end":857.016,"text":"所以齁我認為你們不只要做不只要寫計畫要積極的去做金管委員我比較沒話講喔因為他5月才上任你們財政部部長也沒話我從這一屆立委上任2月3月就開始質詢他質詢他這一點"},{"start":859.059,"end":886.891,"text":"他最有責任二月三月到現在都超過半年啦他找了幾趴回來一趴都沒有零趴然後他今年還敢出國去度假是不是不是我們部長是去參加APEC參加APEC那可以原諒不好意思報告委員我們剛剛那個專案真的經過行政院核定以後我們就會積極來推動而且將來會成立一個院級的這個辦公這個"},{"start":888.232,"end":890.594,"text":"每一句話背後都有神明所以你講這些你要對全民負責而且要對神明負責"},{"start":913.868,"end":935.108,"text":"好不好主席不好意思我剛剛想到有一句我30秒問一下主委那個主委那個我們我跟你有商量過了我們要用本來經濟部轄管的金融消費保護法那麼用這個你說要找我們找鼠條三兄弟談希望一個機會給鼠條三兄弟重量"},{"start":936.429,"end":940.371,"text":"我們已經跟公會跟他們三家都談過了那現在我們也開始啟動我們那個金融消費者保護法執法的調整我們接下來是會持續的去把甚至範圍還可能再擴大一點點"},{"start":958.277,"end":985.084,"text":"好那這三家都同意因為90%的金額是這三家我們朝這個方向努力因為這個畢竟是要花一點點時間他們同意了嗎還沒還沒還沒接受轄管現在我們是希望說能夠逐步的跟他們溝通現在狀況還在溝通中狀況是樂觀的狀況是樂觀的現在我們努力你就用我剛剛講的那個字給他一個重量的機會好謝謝謝謝王世堅"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":989,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時14分）謝謝主席，我請金管會彭主委，今天財政部部長沒來？"],["主席：是，部長出國。"],["王委員世堅：好，請次長。"],["主席：請彭主委、李次長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，我剛才聽到你說很有信心，這一點我覺得你精神可嘉，這個確實需要有相當的勇氣，也要有相當的把握。這一次賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長提出要打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，這個大方向都完全正確。其實這個目標和策略，我們已經講了二十幾年，歷來政府在講，過去推動大家講的口號很多，也有訂一些策略。但是我認為做的可能越來越不積極，所以導致現在這個部分成果很差。","就調查的金融指數來講，我們臺灣不管是經商的環境、人力資本、基礎建設、所有金融體系發展、國家聲望等等這五大項，我們現在淪落到後段班欸！全球調查120個城市，我們臺北，我們整個國家，在120個國家裡面，我們淪落到第73名。在5年前，2019年我們還有第30名，變成我們這個名次是逐步下滑。我們還曾經第41名，也曾經躍升到第18名。從5年前開始，掉到第30名之後逐年下滑，到現在第73名，我們已經淪為後段班。","當然，你現在提出很多好的策略，我認為這些想法很對，但是需要財政部也配合。我就舉例講這個TISA，TISA這個部分非常正確，我們鼓勵國人開TISA個人帳戶，這當然要財政部來配合，配合什麼呢？配合鼓勵的一些措施，像是鼓勵減稅、降稅，結果財政部卻如如不動不能談，你有跟財政部談過了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們跟財政部溝通過，非常非常多的會議。"],["王委員世堅：那他們的回應是怎樣？我看他們好像不積極嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實財政部滿積極，主要是我剛剛跟委員報告，其實臺灣的賦稅政策，因為它會牽涉到各個產業公平性的考量。我們當然也知道政府是一體的，這部分我們剛才跟財政部談了以後，確實如果現階段要推動，立刻要有一個非常明確，能夠追得上新、港的租稅，我在猜臺灣沒有這個條件。"],["王委員世堅：財政部就是不肯嘛！你說他積極，積極做什麼？積極保稅就對了，要求他租稅優惠、減稅這些，不可能啦！次長……"],["李次長慶華：委員我說明一下……"],["王委員世堅：我想不懂啦！你們鼓勵當沖降稅，不是這樣嗎？"],["李次長慶華：當沖降稅是我們亞洲資產管理中心一個很重要的措施。"],["王委員世堅：卻不鼓勵這種長期投資，我覺得很奇怪啊！"],["李次長慶華：我們也鼓勵長期投資，我們對於股利的所得課稅是非常優惠的。"],["王委員世堅：你怎麼鼓勵？你還不是說就如昔，照先前的制度，那在鼓勵什麼？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，因為我們現在對於投資這部分的租稅優惠，已經是非常優惠的了，因為我們的證券交易所得是完全免稅的，然後我們的股利所得，現在只要你所得在94萬元以下幾乎不用繳稅。我講的是股利喔！因為我們有8萬元的可扣抵稅額可以抵減，抵減不足還可以退稅，另外我們在銀行存款的儲蓄投資……"],["王委員世堅：所以你認為這些就夠了？"],["李次長慶華：不是，因為我們這個優惠比較……"],["王委員世堅：你認為這些就足以讓我們現在鼓勵國人開TISA個人帳戶，這些就夠了？"],["李次長慶華：因為金管會提供給我們的資料，他拿的是日本或者是其他國家已經在實施類似TISA這樣的制度，比較之下，我們都比他們優惠。所以我們覺得現行的制度可以配合金管會來做一個規劃……"],["王委員世堅：你覺得哪樣比日本優惠？"],["李次長慶華：是，我們真的比日本優惠。"],["王委員世堅：你知道日本總所得是多少嗎？你是怎樣叫做比他優惠？"],["李次長慶華：因為他所減免的額度比我們少，他們是定額免稅，像我們證券交易所得是全額免稅，然後我們的儲蓄投資特別扣除是27萬元免稅，他們的額度只有一部分的額度，比我們少很多，所以比較之下我們真的已經比日本優惠多了。"],["王委員世堅：我不認為這個叫比日本優惠，我不認為，你們財政部門就是不積極。我隨便舉個例子你就沒做到，我一再三令五申跟你們說，針對九大公營行庫，貸款給建商，尤其是貸款給高負債的建商，讓他們去買地、養地、圈地，這就是造成我們臺灣房價節節上升的原因。我說你要把這些銀行控管好，結果我們要求中央銀行跟財政部，你們要求銀行要管控好，這些建商借錢去買空地，空地貸款的部分一年半內要開工，那超過一年半沒開工的有多少？我問你們，你們當然全然不知。全然不知我們就問你們轄管的這九大銀行，九大銀行告訴我，土地銀行竟然高達5.11%，逾期的喔！到了一年半，他沒有開工，你們也沒跟他催，這麼高的逾期，表示你們就縱容他們嘛！"],["李次長慶華：其實我們是有配合中央銀行的政策，我們有要求我們的公股行庫，基本上要去控管逾18個月未動工的購地貸款……"],["王委員世堅：控管成這個樣子！"],["李次長慶華：因為土地銀行他本身就是一個比較特殊的銀行，他就是以土融、建融為主要業務。"],["王委員世堅：我們問你有沒有去管控，你們說有，那管控的成績給我們看，卻是一問三不知！我也問一下金管會彭主委，然後你們銀行局也是，同樣的問題，我問你們銀行局，銀行局也是說他們都沒調查、沒有統計、不知道，一問三不知。請問，我剛剛說的這個問題，是不是該銀行局、該財政部管？因為九大公銀行庫是財政部的嘛！他當然應該知道，這個數字是我們一家一家銀行去問出來的，每次都這個樣子。問你們說公營行庫有沒有貸款給薯條三兄弟？銀行局也是一問三不知，不願意提供。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在銀行有針對每一家公司的貸款、房貸，還有土建融的餘額都有做控管，但因為這個總和管制的部分是央行在處理……"],["王委員世堅：那你現在推給央行啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我們確實是有分工來做這樣的事情。"],["王委員世堅：所以這個事情是我們問錯人就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不是這樣講，我是說因為這麼多人在……"],["王委員世堅：銀行局不用管，他轄下的這些銀行是不是有貸款出去沒有照約定的，在一個期限內，空地貸款欸！一年半，這個基本常識欸！包括一年半，這個應該收回不是嗎？銀行局怎麼可以不甩？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我請銀行局局長來跟您回答這個問題。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，因為這些是央行的選擇性信用管制，平常我們在……"],["王委員世堅：央行的選擇性信用管制，所以就該央行去管就對了，你們的意思是這樣？"],["莊局長琇媛：不是……"],["王委員世堅：是他要選擇性信用管制，他做選擇性的就好，你們不用做，是這樣嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，當然執行的機關是金融機構，所以我們在做金融檢查的時候，也會一起檢查金融機構是不是有遵循央行的……"],["王委員世堅：我現在請問你，下回我們再問你類似這樣的問題，你回答不回答？十大負債高於70%的建商，問你們也是一問三不知，也是我們一家一家趕快去查建商，哪一些貸款率過高的。最高的第一名，負債將近89%！這樣你還敢貸款給他？你助紂為虐嘛！你借他這些錢讓他去買地、養地、圈地，然後現在利率這麼低，他當然敢借啊！不是這樣嗎？然後你們一問三不知。","我時間有限，主委我跟你講，我們資產管理中心的重點，就是希望國外的錢來給我們臺灣管。我大概3個月前就跟你說，我們有一點很矛盾，我們臺灣壽險的可運用餘額資金大概32兆，32兆有70%是被這些壽險業拿去國外投資，買國外的債券基金，有22兆去買國外的債券基金。請問這如何說服國際？你來我們國家，你把錢交給我們臺灣來管，結果我們自己的錢70%去買國外，去給國外管，然後我們說：「來，你的錢讓我管。」你對誰有說服力？我們對非洲這些小國有說服力嗎？我們的給更高明的管，然後我們請非洲的來給我管，是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是這樣啦！我想過去他會投資這麼多有時空的背景，所以現在我們希望把他引回來。"],["王委員世堅：對，所以我上次就講嘛！背景就不談啦！我就說這樣子，我們國內公共建設也需要資金，我們剛好每年請他3%、5%轉回我們國內，那國內就是要請財政部負起責任嘛！你們就教教交通部、內政部，教他們如何來設立這些債券。比方說交通，交通有很大的像捷運，自償率很高啊！他只要通車賣票以後，對不對？內政像社會住宅、長照，這些都有自償性啊！這些現在都缺資金啊！我們把國外的這些資金，每年3%、5%、7%請他回來，是不是又可以充裕我們國內的建設，結果財政部也是如如不動。"],["李次長慶華：沒有，我們現在其實已經跟國發會還有金管會、財政部……"],["王委員世堅：已經動了？"],["李次長慶華：對，我們共同擬定了一個兆元投資國家發展的方案，這中間就有一個非常重要的，就是吸引在國外的本國資金回台投資，參加我們的公共建設。"],["王委員世堅：那現在你做的怎樣？有吸引回來了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：這個方案因為我們現在……"],["王委員世堅：你看談的結果有幾家壽險公司預計提回多少？"],["李次長慶華：現在是這樣……"],["王委員世堅：這個部分我剛剛講，70%大概從10年前就開始，我們國家警覺到這個問題，大家一直說應該調降，結果說要調降卻越降越高，10年前大概只有56%，4年前64%，到今年70%！"],["李次長慶華：是，委員，我們也知道，就是我們有很龐大……"],["王委員世堅：越降越高！說要把在外面投資的金額降低，拿回國內，結果降成這個樣子。"],["李次長慶華：剛才有跟委員報告，就是我們三個部會……"],["王委員世堅：你看一下現在的標準，我列幾個國家，隨便幾個國家。我們最討厭的中共是2%，韓國8.3%，日本21.6%，美國12%，我們70%！他們這4個國家加起來，還不到我們的一半，天啊！加起來才34%。壽險的對外投資金額，我們70%，他們4個國家加起來才35%，天啊！所以我認為你們不只要做，不只要寫計畫，要積極的去做！"],["李次長慶華：有，跟委員報告，我們……"],["王委員世堅：金管會我比較沒話講喔！因為他5月才上任，你們財政部，部長也沒換，我從這一屆立委上任，2月、3月就開始質詢他這一點。他最有責任，2月、3月到現在都超過半年了，他找了多少回來？1%都沒有！0%！然後他今天還敢出國，去度假是不是？"],["李次長慶華：不是，我們部長去參加APEC。"],["王委員世堅：參加APEC，那可以原諒。"],["李次長慶華：不好意思，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我們剛才那個專案，真的經過行政院核定以後就會積極來推動，而且將來會成立一個院級的專案會議，也會由財政部跟國發會成立一個專案小組辦公室，我們財政部會擔任促參案的一個幕僚單位，將來會積極來推動。"],["王委員世堅：你說的你要負責喔！次長我告訴你，每一句話背後都有神明。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以你講這些，你要對全民負責，而且要對神明負責，好不好？","主席，不好意思，我剛剛想到一個問題，我用30秒問一下主委。我跟主委商量過，你說要用經濟部轄管的金融消費保護法，找薯條三兄弟來談，希望給他們一個從良的機會，讓他們能夠接受由金管會轄管，然後可以做債務協商，這個部分談得怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經跟公會跟他們三家都談過了，同時也開始啟動金融消費者保護法子法的調整，我們會持續去進行，甚至範圍還可能再擴大一點點……"],["王委員世堅：這三家都同意了？因為90%的金額是這三家……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們朝這個方向努力，因為這畢竟還是要花一點點時間。"],["王委員世堅：他們同意了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還沒。"],["王委員世堅：還沒接受轄管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們希望能夠逐步的跟他們溝通……"],["王委員世堅：還在溝通中？"],["彭主任委員金隆：狀況是樂觀的。"],["王委員世堅：狀況是樂觀的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，我們努力。"],["王委員世堅：你就用我剛剛講的，給他一個從良的機會，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員，接著請廖先翔委員。各位官員可以自由用餐。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156205","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156205","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f41435e642c0a6824cf030d5fc7afcf81a854d634de4a24c4726c905563695d9f3b915669f50d0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:47:25 - 12:02:52","影片長度":"00:15:27","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:47:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:02:52+08:00","duration":927,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.08034375,"end":13.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.47159375,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.24346875,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.289718750000002,"end":19.234718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.01096875,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.90096875,"end":22.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.64284375,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.95909375,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.12784375,"end":31.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.21159375,"end":37.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.57784375,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.91096875,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.01596875,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.75784375,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":48.040343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.048468750000005,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.79471875,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.72284375,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.017218750000005,"end":61.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.69221875,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.01471875,"end":79.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.93846875,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.68034375,"end":93.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.51846875000001,"end":97.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.68659375,"end":107.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.99721875,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.49471875,"end":111.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.60846875,"end":114.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.39284375000001,"end":115.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.55721875,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.06721875000001,"end":120.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.70409375000001,"end":125.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.11659375,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.33159375,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.28471875,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.58409375000002,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.51596875,"end":136.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.99221875,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.97846875000002,"end":147.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.13034375,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.05846875,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.14909375000002,"end":162.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.48221875000002,"end":191.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.06846875000002,"end":197.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.16034375,"end":209.29784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.17596875,"end":210.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.91784375,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.36846875,"end":216.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.43971875000003,"end":220.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.38471875000002,"end":220.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.77284375000002,"end":227.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.01221875000002,"end":228.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.09221875,"end":235.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.74596875,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.01096875000002,"end":238.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.30159375000002,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.95096875000002,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.09409375,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.02596875,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.60784375000003,"end":253.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.88159375,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.51784375,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.99034375,"end":260.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.54721875,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.91846875000005,"end":261.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.86346875000004,"end":267.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.11659375,"end":262.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.51659375,"end":285.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.10971875,"end":280.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.81784375,"end":283.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.28596875,"end":286.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.27721875000003,"end":296.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.27596875,"end":297.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.48659375,"end":301.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.71409375,"end":312.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.32846875,"end":311.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.69096875,"end":338.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.61409375,"end":319.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.73159375,"end":325.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.76409375000003,"end":333.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.56471875,"end":347.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.63159375000004,"end":342.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.04909375,"end":343.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.43721875,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.11159375,"end":362.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.18596875000003,"end":359.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.43846875,"end":362.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.50596875,"end":370.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.52596875,"end":383.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.66721875,"end":396.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.17721875,"end":387.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.91846875000005,"end":405.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.25034375,"end":408.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.79846875000004,"end":415.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.19409375000004,"end":433.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.83659375,"end":438.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.35096875000005,"end":436.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.29159375,"end":440.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.40096875,"end":441.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.18971875000005,"end":446.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.93596875000003,"end":450.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.13784375,"end":450.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.18846875,"end":450.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.49221875,"end":450.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.50909375000003,"end":450.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.72846875000005,"end":450.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.88034375,"end":450.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.91409375,"end":451.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.65659375,"end":456.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.83721875000003,"end":461.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.09034375000005,"end":457.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.23721875,"end":468.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.59971875,"end":465.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.43034375,"end":479.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.24659375000005,"end":485.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.45284375000006,"end":490.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.99221875,"end":493.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.70909375,"end":503.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.75971875000005,"end":493.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.24034375,"end":497.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":503.32784375000006,"end":508.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.09909375,"end":514.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.09409375,"end":521.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.85659375,"end":523.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.0928437499999,"end":522.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.29096875,"end":523.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.8984687500001,"end":524.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":524.5734687500001,"end":524.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.5903437500001,"end":524.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":524.6072187500001,"end":525.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.1640937500001,"end":525.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.77159375,"end":526.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.66596875,"end":530.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.5559687500001,"end":531.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.3528437500001,"end":532.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":532.97721875,"end":534.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.37784375,"end":539.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":536.89221875,"end":536.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":539.5247187500001,"end":541.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.80721875,"end":540.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":541.70159375,"end":549.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":550.69596875,"end":553.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.79721875,"end":551.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.05846875,"end":554.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":554.17221875,"end":555.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":556.2647187499999,"end":560.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.32784375,"end":557.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":559.5890937500001,"end":560.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.8547187500001,"end":567.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":567.6384687500001,"end":571.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":567.7734687500001,"end":568.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":571.5872187500001,"end":579.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":579.40034375,"end":585.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":586.1840937500001,"end":586.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":587.3147187500001,"end":588.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":589.60971875,"end":590.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.71909375,"end":601.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.1140937499999,"end":602.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":603.24471875,"end":605.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.2990937500001,"end":608.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":609.2859687499999,"end":617.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.25596875,"end":612.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":618.6684687500001,"end":627.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":628.9622187500001,"end":630.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":631.27409375,"end":631.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":631.98284375,"end":635.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":634.75034375,"end":638.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":635.88096875,"end":637.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.32784375,"end":638.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.54284375,"end":642.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":643.05284375,"end":645.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":644.9934687500001,"end":647.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":647.18721875,"end":653.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":652.8572187500001,"end":653.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":653.46471875,"end":658.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":657.8015937499999,"end":664.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":662.64471875,"end":663.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":664.3659687500001,"end":670.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":669.95159375,"end":672.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":671.9765937500001,"end":674.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":673.5122187500001,"end":677.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":674.7609687500001,"end":675.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":677.78159375,"end":678.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":678.5578437500001,"end":679.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":679.33409375,"end":680.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":679.50284375,"end":679.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":680.49846875,"end":680.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":681.05534375,"end":685.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":683.97471875,"end":686.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":686.0503437500001,"end":691.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":690.30284375,"end":695.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":693.12096875,"end":694.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":695.8715937500001,"end":697.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":696.1415937500001,"end":697.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":697.8628437500001,"end":699.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":697.9809687500001,"end":700.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":699.21284375,"end":700.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":701.18721875,"end":704.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":704.64659375,"end":705.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":706.18221875,"end":707.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":707.2622187500001,"end":715.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":710.73846875,"end":711.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":712.2234687499999,"end":712.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":713.84346875,"end":719.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":715.4465937500001,"end":715.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":720.30659375,"end":721.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":720.7790937500001,"end":724.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":721.38659375,"end":722.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":723.36096875,"end":729.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":730.54971875,"end":731.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.7353437500001,"end":734.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":734.5322187500001,"end":738.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":737.9072187500001,"end":741.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":741.94034375,"end":755.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":755.7609687500001,"end":767.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":755.7947187500001,"end":755.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":755.84534375,"end":757.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":765.97034375,"end":767.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":767.37096875,"end":774.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.35784375,"end":770.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":774.5090937500001,"end":778.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":778.93034375,"end":779.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":779.9597187500001,"end":782.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":782.5078437500001,"end":784.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":785.49471875,"end":786.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":786.4397187500001,"end":787.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":787.5703437500001,"end":791.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":787.62096875,"end":788.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.55721875,"end":791.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":791.8059687500001,"end":794.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":793.7465937500001,"end":797.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":796.93596875,"end":802.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":799.72034375,"end":807.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":808.1240937500002,"end":812.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":810.0984687500002,"end":815.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":815.88659375,"end":818.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":817.1015937500001,"end":819.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":818.5022187500001,"end":820.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":819.7847187500001,"end":820.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":821.64096875,"end":825.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":825.74159375,"end":827.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":827.41221875,"end":828.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":829.6059687500001,"end":830.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":831.22596875,"end":834.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":834.9384687500001,"end":836.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":837.16596875,"end":848.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":848.84346875,"end":851.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":851.4084687500001,"end":856.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":856.70721875,"end":859.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":859.8459687500001,"end":861.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":862.1072187500001,"end":864.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":864.13221875,"end":875.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":876.2822187500001,"end":880.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":880.28159375,"end":910.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":911.0447187500001,"end":912.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":913.18784375,"end":916.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.2209687500001,"end":920.91659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.49,"end":12.106,"text":"質詢委員陳玉珍委員主席我要一樣先請金管會主委不過待會有國發會跟經濟部委員好"},{"start":17.287,"end":31.366,"text":"主委好你們今晚會我看您的這個決心不錯那也有一點行動力那現在我看有如火如荼要做到兩年有感然後讓臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心這個"},{"start":33.367,"end":60.378,"text":"這個計畫已經講了幾十年的計畫好像感覺有一點機會不過我感覺可能在這個你面臨最大的挑戰我看我們立委部分聽很多立委的這個質詢我們立委是這樣對法令的鬆綁還有這個政策方面我們都是相當支持的但是我感覺你一個人剛剛看我看到你在質詢的時候你這個有問題的話後面的這個下面的相關單位沒有上來協助提供資料我覺得這個你"},{"start":61.798,"end":76.136,"text":"面臨最大的挑戰可能不是來自於我們這些外部不是我們這是賴總統的政策這沒有問題我看比較大的挑戰可能是你的先進的頭腦要幫忙你這個相關的我們這個官僚體系要打開頭腦這個要open"},{"start":77.037,"end":99.094,"text":"我們同仁很不錯啦 認真很不錯我沒有否定他們認真但是很多觀念是不是這麼多年來大概就是這樣子所以沒有跟他有其他部會比如說像財政部這個稅賦的方面一些觀念的這個央行一些外會不認為自己是管制但是民間聲音就這麼多國發會的這個政策各方面這個可能"},{"start":99.634,"end":101.676,"text":"那這些新的投資項目要對專業的投資人募集資金要怎麼做呢?"},{"start":128.605,"end":146.331,"text":"這裡的話就剛剛有提到我們現在就是我們現在有上市櫃剛剛那個董事長在這邊就像我們提到的我們對這些真的要籌資的話當然如果能夠那個是上市櫃我們剛剛有提到我們剛剛有委員說到臺灣有98次中小企業"},{"start":148.152,"end":150.334,"text":"臺灣的詐騙這麼盛行其實也就是因為很多人沒有投資的管道"},{"start":170.154,"end":191.639,"text":"在比如說很多產業有一些單位拿不到錢一些人有錢那這中間的一些我們一些不管金融機構也好或是相關的這些協助募資的單位是不是也沒有相應的這個相關的法令啊比照美國其他國家一樣進步的法令讓他們可以來做這個相關的這個資金的這個募集啊"},{"start":192.399,"end":209.346,"text":"這當然比如說其他國家有更好的制度我們會來參採不過本國有他自己的限制剛才委員提到我們對於這些中小企業或中小微企業我們在過去假如銀行端我們在長期的那個有關融資的資助剛才經濟部你剛才講是融資喔我說的是投資那是銀行融資是兩個議題喔"},{"start":211.187,"end":238.42,"text":"對 再來就是有關我們在所監管的金控金融機構不管是銀行、保險公司 都有創投的投資對於他們 我想請問你啦我直接問你 因為你沒有回答專業投資人是不是很多都放在這個國外比如新加坡、香港都有很多做這個什麼這個家族的這個辦公室很多專業經理人那我國的資產管理業者怎麼樣跟這些可以跟這些怎麼樣跟這些對象進行公開的這個募集"},{"start":239.829,"end":260.328,"text":"就是我們現在的話就是這些高淨值的客戶他有兩個選擇一個是假如說他要做財富管理的話那會選擇是由我們金融機構那如果說你要做資產管理的話就會跟我們的這些投資他可能會選擇比如說創投啦還有像比如說我們的PE啊這些還有投信公司PE是虱目嘛對對對"},{"start":262.53,"end":285.766,"text":"對就類似像這樣他有不同的管道可以從他這邊得到一個投資的機會你現在要開放比如做資產管理中心外國的這些資產管理中心他們可以在因為外國的法律開放他們可以在外國募集資金對到臺灣來做相關的投資嘛這個沒問題嘛對不對但是我們本國呢本國的業者呢沒有辦法對外募資啊這是不是變成有不利的這個競爭地位啊"},{"start":288.193,"end":312.028,"text":"這個本國的投信公司他當然可以募集本國的基金對不對然後他也可以募集以後對海外銷售募集本國你是指比如說PE對不對不只PE是他另外一個業務比如說他可以募集一般的基金這是對一些這個管道有管道的人那對很多投資大眾來講他沒有獲得這些訊息的管道啊也沒有這樣這個可以投資的方法那這個部分的落差你要怎麼補足呢"},{"start":313.068,"end":333.219,"text":"這個我們當然就是透過一些他們之間的銷售管理還有我們的教育訓練來做這些事情像比如說PE這些東西投資絕對不會是一般的專業投資人來做的比如說真的是一些已經成熟到可以上市櫃當然就一般人就可以投資那些我都說沒有問題前端的部分這樣就是要創造這麼多"},{"start":337.581,"end":360.856,"text":"所以在這個很專業的裡頭跟這個上市櫃那個也不用提那個是已經到了很進步的那個階段那這中間一般的百姓除了去買這個基金做這樣的投資金融這個市場上的投資實際上如果一般的百姓想要參與很多新創事業的投資的時候他們是沒有投資管道的沒有不知道怎麼樣去獲得這個這時候就很多所以就很多詐騙集團會產生嘛"},{"start":363.037,"end":383.366,"text":"對 這時候就是要 如果真的正當管道就要透過資產管理業者來做這些事情他去提供那這個法令的部分如果我們限制太嚴格的話你現在在做亞洲資產管理中心如果在法令的部分你的限制比國外的相關法令嚴格的話你就會限這個這些本國的業者跟外國的這個資產管理業者在不公平的競爭地位啊"},{"start":383.726,"end":404.876,"text":"對當然就是資金是國際競爭的啦假設臺灣的一些的法規對這些資金相對是比較不便利或是不友善那當然這個競爭力就會下降是啊我們要變成亞洲資產管理中心資金也是國際競爭如果我們的法令比較不進步我們的政策比較不open那當然就不要說我們的地緣政治啦"},{"start":405.516,"end":423.582,"text":"這樣子臺灣怎麼變成亞洲這個資產管理中心這個確實我們今晚會很努力我們請同仁盤點一下我們大概兩年之內我們要鬆綁54個好 那我想請問今晚會哪一個單位每年都出國考察這個金融科技108年44萬109年到那個11年沒有出國111年25萬112年54萬113年46萬今年要這個預算是要增加到107萬這些預算出國考察是哪個單位去做考察的"},{"start":434.428,"end":461.719,"text":"主要是我們創新中心我們中規處創新中心是中規處派員出國考察是嗎對就是開會或是看他的目的性質來派適當的人員出國比如說像這些今年107萬是為哪個單位出國考察呢請我們處長說明一下這個是像今年的話我們是就是3月份的時候有去日本去哪裡沒關係派哪些單位去我們金融會裡面哪些單位"},{"start":462.227,"end":463.067,"text":"其實我們在每年我們大概"},{"start":487.334,"end":498.644,"text":"發布過我們的金融科技發展路徑圖1.0跟2.0我們就是很多是參考我們考察回來的結果沒關係你把這個相關的考察報告先提供給我我想請問在你們報告裡頭這個怎麼不寫這個股權期末的這個績效我上個會期就執行過了這個演藝民間版的創規機制金管會說104年開放證券商"},{"start":509.413,"end":531.112,"text":"的經營這個股權性質的群眾募資業成效為三家新創公司募資為新臺幣1700萬元這是三年到五年有績效嗎?正期局有績效嗎?我們其實有三家啦那詳細我們請局長這三年有什麼績效嗎?"},{"start":532.563,"end":549.31,"text":"目前來講有3家的業者是是是這已經講很久104年開始那過去3年到5年的績效是不是掛零1700多萬的募資成功過去來1700萬不是喔是104年開始喔過去3年到那是累積的我有查過數據過去3年5年績效在哪裡"},{"start":550.828,"end":578.775,"text":"你不知道是不是掛鈴我會問你就信我查過了最近來講是掛鈴掛鈴嘛沒錯嘛為什麼呢你們這麼努力也在研議民間版創規制度為什麼績效會是掛鈴呢這3年5到5年都掛鈴了你們現在用櫃檯中心用免費服務給新創公司嘛對不對那這樣會不會造成這個事實上政府應該提供環境嘛讓民間的產業可以去發展啦做好"},{"start":579.475,"end":587.507,"text":"一個規則提供環境而不是政府自己又求人間裁判到答案然後績效還是掛零對吧我再請問國發會"},{"start":589.659,"end":615.816,"text":"局長您聽到嗎?您知道我的意思嗎?政府是創造環境不是自己做然後做不好然後績效掛零你們工作實在量力也很大副主委請教這個臺灣新創產業的這個企業你們這個也支持新創產業嘛新創產業新增數逐年減少這個現在大概有7900家身為國發會你看看我們的那個數據這個Findic的數據從20"},{"start":619.339,"end":646.802,"text":"2017年開始每年逐年下降從800多加800多到700多、600多、300多、200多、100多到2024現在22加這個逐年檢討的主因是什麼跟委員報告第一個因為今年還沒到沒關係不算今年從87654321一直下降國發會不是很支持嗎這不是國家的政策嗎我們的支持力道一直沒有減弱但是為什麼一直下降"},{"start":647.342,"end":662.851,"text":"其實如果委員注意大概這幾年我覺得一方面可能跟大環境有關係大環境因為你有注意到21、22年這幾年比較少的是正好是疫情的關係那前幾年一直下降23開始就沒有疫情了22以後就沒有疫情了從200多變100多家"},{"start":664.437,"end":680.068,"text":"其實如果注意的話其實前幾年大概都還維持在六七百家以上不要講總數嘛你們新創就是每年增加哪有呢去年113去年已經沒有疫情囉不要騙我為什麼你們在做什麼"},{"start":681.229,"end":706.436,"text":"委員我們的政策其實一直都在增加政策一直增加但是加速一直減少這是什麼原因所以我們也希望這個源頭活水能夠維持我們會繼續加大你們不是希望這是你們要去擋到的目的沒有做到的原因是什麼經濟部上來的時候經濟部有中小企業署嗎中小企業署要上來中小企業新創署沒有國防委員會回答完畢你把它回答完為什麼"},{"start":707.595,"end":729.106,"text":"沒有 所以我沒有注意到這個當然原因可能很複雜那我們希望在大學﹐法人新創或者是企業部份我順便跟你講我看你們今天有提供是一個假消息嗎你們說你們跟這個臺大校友臺大校友基金嘛 對不對做一個校園這個要投資什麼校園這個成立臺灣第一個校友VC投資基金這個是假新聞嗎"},{"start":730.831,"end":745.98,"text":"不是嘛 什麼叫做第一個校友投資20年前成大 交通大學早就有啦你是在詐騙國人還是在詐騙立法院不是 因為他們很多校友基金的目的是透過投資上市規股票有獲利回饋給學校 那我們"},{"start":746.936,"end":774.008,"text":"臺大規劃的這個校友基金就純粹就類似於VC的方式是職業投資新創就是不太一樣所以講第一個的意思是這個意思就性質不太一樣你們現在我據本期得到的訊息是你們沒有想要鼓勵提供資源給一些民間業者反而是找特定對象跟臺大洽談這是獨立特定對象不會啦而且還做假新聞說只有這個好像第一個校友基金沒有啦其實這個交大跟成大早就判過還是這只是你"},{"start":774.808,"end":786.626,"text":"為了這個報告寫的故意要寫個東西好像你們有做什麼事情一樣那這個你們的這個創投天使方案現在是成資金已經成為零了是嗎沒有啊沒有嗎"},{"start":788.315,"end":806.827,"text":"我幫了50億元去做天使投資現在的資金是多少現在已經投了三十幾億了現在的資金是多少不是投了多少你現在的資金是多少現在已經投了38億了所以這個額度還有十幾億那如果額度用完還可以繼續增加那我請問在疫情期間你的這個特別書庫你剛說疫情嘛項目你回收了多少"},{"start":808.488,"end":808.808,"text":"美國跟日本"},{"start":831.26,"end":851.11,"text":"我看你們新創署的計畫裡頭在議題就好了還沒問到亞洲資產管理中心新創署的計畫裡頭多部分都是法人在學校在辦理你沒有規劃一個好的生態系讓民間能自主發展一個新創生態系的平台這個部分是不是你們要回去檢討一下"},{"start":851.63,"end":855.934,"text":"市長請你看一下美國、日本、以色列都是民間在發展我們政府不要什麼都自己辦剛剛跟鄭齊瑜說軍管會說的也是一樣什麼事情都想說政府自己辦政府第一個修理很慢第二個事實上"},{"start":876.714,"end":897.534,"text":"據本席所接觸的各個產業裡頭對我們的政府的這種高度監管還有反應很慢還有很多的這個思維跟民間的創新都跟不上事實上很多產業都頗有危言很多產業各行各業所以我希望在這個我們新的這個主委的帶領之下要open mind把那個頭腦打開"},{"start":898.855,"end":900.597,"text":"陳玉珍委員 下一位質詢委員王宏威委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":797,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時46分）主席，我先請金管會主委，待會有國發會和經濟部。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委好。我看你的決心不錯，也有一點行動力，現在我看有如火如荼要做到兩年有感，讓臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心這個計畫，已經講了幾十年的計畫好像感覺有一點機會，不過我感覺你面臨最大的挑戰，我聽很多立委的質詢，對法令的鬆綁和政策方面，我們都是相當支持的，但是我剛剛看到你在備詢的時候，有問題的話，下面的相關單位沒有上來協助提供資料，我覺得你面臨最大的挑戰可能不是來自我們這些外部，這是賴總統的政策，沒有問題，我看比較大的挑戰可能是你的先進的頭腦要幫忙你相關官僚體系要打開頭腦，這個要open。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們同仁很不錯，待會他們會……"],["陳委員玉珍：認真很不錯，我沒有否定他們很認真，但是很多觀念這麼多年來就是這個樣子，可能還有其他部會，像財政部稅負方面的觀念、央行的外匯，不認為自己是管制，但是民間聲音就這麼多，國發會的政策、各方面可能也要一起來跟上，不然會非常非常辛苦，我們立法院當然站在支持的立場。你在書面報告中提到為了協助金融科技及新創業者籌得充足持續的多元資金，你要支持投資臺灣、支持產業發展，推動策略性投資項目。這些新的投資項目要對專業的投資人募集資金要怎麼做呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛有提到，我們現在有上市櫃，剛剛董事長也在這邊，就像我們提到我們對這些真的要籌資的話，當然如果能夠在……"],["陳委員玉珍：那個是上市櫃，我們剛剛也有委員提到，臺灣有98%是中小企業，就業人口也占很高，新創還沒有上市櫃以前的資金取得來源，例如要經過新創公司的投資，在這個部分的話，臺灣的詐騙這麼多、這麼盛行，其實也就是因為很多人沒有投資的管道嘛！再比如說很多產業，有一些單位拿不到錢，有一些人有錢，那這中間不管金融機構也好，或是這些相關協助募資的單位，是不是也沒有相應、相關的法令，比照美國其他國家一樣進步的法令，讓他們可以做資金的募集？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然其他國家有更好的制度我們會來參採，不過本國有自己的限制。剛剛委員有提到，我們對於這些中小企業或中小微企業，在過去假如銀行端有長期融資的資助，剛剛經濟部也有報告過……"],["陳委員玉珍：你剛剛講的是融資，我說的是投資，那是銀行融資，是兩個議題啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，再來就是有關我們所經管金控金融機構，不管是銀行、保險公司，都有創投的投資……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於他們……"],["陳委員玉珍：我直接問你啦！因為你沒有回答。專業投資人是不是很多都放在國外，比如新加坡、香港都有很多做家族的辦公室，很多專業經理人。那我國的資產管理業者，怎麼跟這些對象進行公開的募集？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，就是這些高淨值的客戶，他有兩個選擇，一個是假如他要做財富管理的話，那會選擇是由我們金融機構；如果要做資產管理的話，他可能會選擇比如說創投，還有像我們的PE，還有投信公司……"],["陳委員玉珍：PE是私募嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，類似像這樣，他有不同的管道，可以從他這邊得到一個投資的機會。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，你現在要開放，比如做資產管理中心，外國的資產管理中心，因為外國的法律開放，他們可以在外國募集資金，到臺灣來做相關的投資，這個沒問題對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，就比如……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我們本國呢？本國的業者呢？沒有辦法對外募資啊！這是不是變成不利的競爭地位啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：本國的投信公司當然可以募集本國的基金，然後它也可以募集以後對海外銷售……"],["陳委員玉珍：募集本國，你是指比如說PE對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不只，PE是它另外一個業務，比如說它可以募集一般的基金……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是對一些有管道的，對很多投資大眾來講，他沒有獲得這些訊息的管道啊！也沒有這個可以投資的方法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那這個部分的落差你要怎麼補足呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們當然就是透過一些他們之間的銷售管道，還有我們的教育訓練來做這些事情，像PE這些東西，投資絕對不會是一般的……"],["陳委員玉珍：專業投資。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是專業投資人來做的。"],["陳委員玉珍：是專業投資的沒有問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，比如真的是一些成熟到已經可以上市櫃，當然是一般人就可以投資。"],["陳委員玉珍：那些我都說沒有問題，我們在說那個部分。"],["彭主任委員金隆：前端的部分就是要創造這麼多……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以上市櫃也不用提了，那也是已經到很進步的階段了。這中間一般的百姓，除了去買基金做這樣的投資，在金融市場上投資，實際上如果一般的百姓想要參與很多新創事業投資的時候，他們是沒有投資管道的。不知道怎麼樣去獲得……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這時候就透過……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這時候就很多詐騙集團會產生嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這時候如果是真的正當管道，就要透過資產管理業者來做這些事情，他去提供這些投資機會……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個法令的部分，如果我們限制太嚴格的話，你現在在做亞洲資產管理中心，如果法令限制比國外的相關法令嚴格的話，就會使得本國的業者跟外國的資產管理業者處在不公平的競爭地位啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然資金是國際競爭的，假設臺灣的一些法規，對這些資金相對是比較不便利或是不友善，當然這個競爭力就會下降。"],["陳委員玉珍：是啊！我們要變成亞洲資產管理中心，資金也是國際競爭，如果我們的法令比較不進步，我們的政策比較不開放，那當然就不要說我們的地緣政治，這樣子臺灣怎麼變成亞洲資產管理中心？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個確實，我們金管會很努力，我們請同仁盤點一下，大概兩年之內要鬆綁54個管理規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那我想請問，金管會哪一個單位每年都出國考察金融科技？108年44萬，109年到110年沒有出國，111年25萬，112年54萬，113年46萬，今年預算數要增加到107萬，這些預算出國考察，是哪個單位去做考察的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是我們綜規處創新中心。"],["陳委員玉珍：是綜規處派員出國考察是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是開會或是看它的目的性質，來派適當的人員出國。"],["陳委員玉珍：今年的107萬是為哪個單位出國考察呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：請我們處長說明一下。"],["胡處長則華：今年的話我們是3月的時候有去日本。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，去哪裡沒關係，派哪些單位去？我們金管會裡面哪些單位？"],["胡處長則華：原則上是創新中心，專門在負責金融科技的。"],["陳委員玉珍：金融科技創新中心？"],["胡處長則華：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果考察過別的國家的政策，回來後發現國內的政策比別的國家不進步，就不能用國情不同來講，你們有提出什麼真正的計畫嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們發布過我們的金融科技發展路徑圖1.0跟2.0，就是參考很多我們考察回來的結果。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，沒關係，你把相關的考察報告先提供給我。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請問，在你們的報告裡怎麼不寫股權群募績效？我上個會期就質詢過研議民間版創櫃機制，金管會說104年開放證券商得經營股權性質的群眾募資業，成效為3家新創公司，募資新臺幣1,700萬元，請問3年到5年有績效嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是我們在……"],["陳委員玉珍：證期局，有績效嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們確實有3家，詳細的內容我請局長說明。"],["陳委員玉珍：這3年有什麼績效嗎？"],["張局長振山：目前來講有3家業者。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，這已經講很久了，這104年開始，那過去3年到5年的績效是不是掛零？"],["張局長振山：一千七百多萬募資成功。"],["陳委員玉珍：1,700萬是從104年開始，那是累積的，我有查過數據。過去3年到5年的績效在哪裡？你不知道是不是？"],["張局長振山：當然現在看起來那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：是不是掛零？我會問你就是因為我查過了。"],["張局長振山：最近來講是掛零沒錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：掛零嘛！沒錯嘛！"],["張局長振山：櫃買中心已經在做專案處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼呢？你們這麼努力，也在研議民間版的創櫃制度，為什麼績效會是掛零？這3年到5年都掛零！現在櫃買中心用免費服務給新創公司對不對？事實上政府應該提供環境嘛！讓民間的產業可以去發展，做好一個規則提供環境，而不是政府自己又球員兼裁判，然後績效還是掛零，對吧？"],["張局長振山：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：局長您有聽到嗎？您知道我的意思嗎？政府是創造環境，不是自己做，然後做不好，然後績效掛零，你們工作量實在也很大。我再請問國發會，請教副主委，你們也支持新創產業，臺灣新創產業新增數逐年減少，現在大概有7,900家。國發會你看看FINDIT的數據，從2017年開始，每年逐年下降，從八百多、七百多、六百多、三百多、二百多，到2024年現在22家，這個逐年減少的主因是什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：跟委員報告，第一，因為今年還沒到……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係不算今年，從8、7、6、5、4、3、2、1一直下降，國發會不是很支持嗎？這不是國家的政策嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：我們的支持力道一直沒有減弱。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是為什麼一直下降？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：這幾年我覺得一方面可能跟大環境有關係……"],["陳委員玉珍：大環境？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：2021、2022年這幾年比較少，正好是疫情的關係……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那前幾年就一直下降啊！2023年以後就沒有疫情了，從二百多家變一百多家。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：其實前幾年大概都還維持在6、700家以上。"],["陳委員玉珍：不要講總數嘛！你們新創就是……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：沒有，就是每年增加的家數。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪有？去年（112年）已經沒有疫情囉！不要騙我。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼？你們在做什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員，我們的政策其實一直都在增加，如果您……"],["陳委員玉珍：政策一直增加，但是家數一直減少，這是什麼原因？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：所以我們也希望這個源頭活水能夠維持，我們會繼續加大。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們不是希望，這是你們要去達到的目的。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有做到的原因是什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：所以我們現在會加速跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：經濟部上來一下，有中小企業署吧？換中小企業新創署上來。國發會你把它回答完，為什麼？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：所以我們有注意到這個，當然原因可能很複雜，我們希望在大學、法人新創或者是企業部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：很複雜？那大學法人我順便跟你講，我看你們今天是提供一個假消息嗎？你們說你們跟台大校友基金做一個……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，臺大在規劃……"],["陳委員玉珍：要成立臺灣第一個校友VC投資基金，這是假新聞嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不是。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是嘛！什麼叫做第一個校友投資基金？20年前成大、交通大學早就有了，你是在詐騙國人，還是在詐騙立法委員？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不是，因為很多校友基金的目的是透過投資上市櫃股票有獲利回饋給學校，臺大規劃的這個校友基金就純粹類似於VC的方式，是直接投資新創，所以講第一個的意思是這樣，就是性質不太一樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：據本席得到的訊息是，你們沒有想要鼓勵提供資源給一些民間業者，反而是找特定對象跟臺大洽談，這是圖利特定對象。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不會啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：而且還做假新聞說這個好像是第一個校友基金，其實交大跟成大早就做過。還是這只是你為了報告寫的，故意要寫一個東西，好像你們有做什麼事情一樣。現在你們這個創投天使方案，資金已經成為零了是嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：沒有啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有嗎？那我再請問你……"],["詹副主任委員方冠：我們花了50億元去做天使投資。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在資金是多少？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：現在已經投了三十幾億了。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在的資金多少？不是投了多少，你現在的資金是多少？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：現在已經投了38億了，所以額度還有十幾億，如果額度用完還可以繼續增加。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我請問在疫情期間，你的特別紓困項目回收了多少？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不好意思，這個回收多少，我可能要問一下國發基金。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那你會後提供資料給我。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問台杉作為國家級的投資公司，投資了臺灣多少新創公司？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：這個我會後也一併提供。"],["陳委員玉珍：也是會後提供資料？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，不好意思，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：國發會都沒有辦法回答，都要會後提供。我想請問經濟部，美國跟日本……再一題就好了，還沒問到亞洲資產管理中心。我看你們新創署的計畫裡頭，多半都是法人、學校在辦理，你沒有一個規劃好的生態系，讓民間能自主發展一個新創生態系的平台，這個部分是不是你們要回去檢討一下？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，我們最近這幾年也在鼓勵民間成立加速器，也有補助許多民間的創意機構，在做一些新創的輔導。"],["陳委員玉珍：次長，請你看一下美國、日本、以色列都是民間在發展，我們政府不要什麼都自己辦，剛剛跟金管會證期局說的也是一樣，什麼事情都想政府自己辦。政府第一個效率很慢，第二，事實上據本席所接觸的各個產業，對我們政府的這種高度監管，還有反應很慢以及很多思維都跟民間的創新跟不上，事實上很多產業都頗有微詞。所以我希望在我們新主委的帶領之下，要open mind把頭腦打開，然後下面的相關單位也要跟上。我們事實上也是站在支持主委、支持次長的立場，這個政策就要儘量來做開放。因為時間的關係，亞洲資產管理中心下次再來問財政部，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳玉珍委員，下一位質詢委員為王鴻薇委員。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍）：現在已經12點，所以我們中午不休息，便當在各自座位上就各自用餐。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156189","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156189","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b960b6d2df05ecabf6b4c0e929d5f577f4a204707c3feb4e40b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"14:22:31 - 14:29:17","影片長度":"00:06:46","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:22:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:29:17+08:00","duration":406,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.172843750000002,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.872843750000001,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.45846875,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.70721875,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.74034375,"end":25.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.44034375,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.84534375,"end":28.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.02221875,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":37.493468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.73409375,"end":36.970343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.235968750000005,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.494718750000004,"end":62.063468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.265968750000006,"end":66.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.95721875000001,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.96034375,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.49971875,"end":79.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.74846875,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.17409375000001,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.19096875000001,"end":92.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.08409375000001,"end":109.93784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.59846875000001,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.94346875000001,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.77784375,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.04659375000001,"end":116.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":117.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.02534375,"end":121.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.48096875,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.27784375,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.63596875,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.52471875,"end":134.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.99721875,"end":135.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.25034375,"end":135.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.35159375,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.07721875000001,"end":137.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.27096875,"end":142.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.77659375000002,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.97034375,"end":156.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.59721875,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.47471875000002,"end":159.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.24221875,"end":164.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.56221875,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.52409375000002,"end":169.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.18159375000002,"end":172.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.49346875,"end":174.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.72971875000002,"end":178.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.26096875000002,"end":175.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.13846875000002,"end":176.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.59784375,"end":180.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.00659375,"end":194.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.29346875000002,"end":185.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.99284375000002,"end":213.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.85409375,"end":247.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.87409375000001,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.03409375,"end":251.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.67096875000001,"end":256.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.54784375,"end":318.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.56471875,"end":257.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.85034375000004,"end":321.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.47846875000005,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.43159375000005,"end":328.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.44784375,"end":329.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.47721875,"end":330.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.65846875,"end":336.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.61971875,"end":344.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.44971875000005,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.23409375,"end":367.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.00721875000005,"end":404.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.55846875000003,"end":405.97596875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.971,"end":11.833,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":18.496,"end":42.507,"text":"好部長好不管什麼法但是今天部長就是被大家叫上來站法的臺灣現在在面臨快速人口老化我們今天審查的壯世代政策與產業發展促進草案"},{"start":44.848,"end":49.851,"text":"重點就是要來促進壯世代參與經濟並認識他們的潛力而不是僅僅將他們視為年齡的負擔解決年齡的歧視問題創造年齡友善的工作場所確保台灣的高齡化的被視為一種"},{"start":67.822,"end":80.635,"text":"經濟的支援而不是挑戰所以剛才我們其他委員就說他已經簽了連署但是呢都不了解部長你認同這個法案嗎"},{"start":83.443,"end":97.886,"text":"委員我剛剛有報告過就是說概念上我支持這一個壯世代就是反年齡歧視的這個概念啦這我覺得是但是說裡面都有寫清楚嘛所以說這樣一講自己自己沒了概念頭大家連署都是念頭嘛不是這樣啦對大家都要了解才會去簽連署嘛所以這個部分我們部長也很清楚所以呢可是他要定成法律比較值得商榷啦"},{"start":112.93,"end":133.861,"text":"因為法律它是確實有不確定性的這樣子的問題是有不確定性就是要討論要來怎麼樣去修改變成它是比較符合嘛所以說現在就是很嚴重的高齡但是我想要請教一下我們60歲以上的人口占比例多少就是我們的高齡人口我們的60歲以上委員這個可不可以讓我再查一下"},{"start":143.406,"end":149.932,"text":"所以你都不知道多少的話你怎麼說這個高齡這個說有沒有需要所以現在我們的長照還有日照有沒有說足夠我請教部長一下說你要不要準備基金準備經費來養你的父母所以說你另外一半的父母你要不要去撫養"},{"start":170.737,"end":176.685,"text":"當然這個要看世代啦。看世代,但是以你啊,你覺得說以你要不要養?要不要撫養?要不要照顧?"},{"start":184.215,"end":193.621,"text":"因為...這樣子就是說...而且這個有點世代差異比如說要年輕一代他們對這樣就比較不接受所以但是你說不接受你說的啦不接受的話就變成我們的高齡沒人照顧所以你的長照跟日照有夠嗎所以我們就是問題就在這裡你覺得你的"},{"start":204.648,"end":220.546,"text":"你是年輕人可能你沒有你照顧你的父母你回答的很清楚但是照顧另外一半你就就是這樣子就是就是有這樣子的問題存在所以我們就是不管怎麼樣我們就是為了就是我們的"},{"start":221.648,"end":236.001,"text":"高齡來去創造一些福利所以我們是現在目前我們的日照長照其他不足所以我們才要去我們的春城委員才要覺得壯世代我們是可以怎麼樣去更完整"},{"start":237.022,"end":237.482,"text":"當然委員您這邊顯示的就是20%是吧?"},{"start":256.887,"end":284.711,"text":"我顯示是因為我有去做功課嘛你來別知行沒有做功課嘛所以呢所以我們現在就是說我們要如何去協助我們的這個法案是不是可以幫助有一群人他們可以在自己照顧自己的所以現在學校也少子化少子化的話是不是學校也可以做另外一個就是"},{"start":285.231,"end":293.074,"text":"對我們的高齡也有幫助對我們的家庭有幫助對學校有幫助對我們的長輩跟小孩的互動更有幫助所以是不是有沒有想到這樣子的一個方法還有就是因為時間有限我先講完我希望就是說後面你可以給我一個書面的讓我更了解我們才能去幫助更多人"},{"start":313.943,"end":317.408,"text":"所以民間大家有一句話不知道部長是不是知道就是現在的一句話就是說"},{"start":322.517,"end":344.428,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":345.089,"end":359.9,"text":"退休但是不休這樣子的讓我們的高齡才能在這個社會上貢獻我們覺得說家魯一老就是如一寶這樣子才真正的對高齡的幫助因為我這邊的社團每一個月都是去仁愛之家幫老人家剪頭髮他們我們看到他們不是病死"},{"start":368.226,"end":378.013,"text":"是因為他們等不到人來看他,看不到孫子,看不到小孩,是悶死你知道嗎?這個這一塊所以我們希望我們要怎麼樣去更完整還有說我們的壯世代已經提出來我們的村城委員希望說怎麼樣去照顧我們的群"},{"start":388.661,"end":388.701,"text":" ﹝無言﹞"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1392,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（14時22分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。不管什麼法，但是今天部長就是被大家叫上來罰站。臺灣現在在面臨快速人口老化，我們今天審查的壯世代政策與產業發展促進草案，重點就是要來促進壯世代參與經濟，並認識他們的潛力，而不是僅僅將他們視為年齡的負擔，解決年齡的歧視問題，創造年齡友善的工作場所，確保臺灣的高齡化被視為一種經濟資源，而不是挑戰，所以剛才我們其他委員就說，他已經簽了連署，但是他都不了解。部長，你認同這個法案嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我剛剛有報告過，概念上我支持壯世代反年齡歧視的概念，我覺得這個理解……"],["麥委員玉珍：是，裡面都有寫清楚嘛！他說自己不了解「癮頭」，連署的大家都是「癮頭」嗎？不是這樣吧！"],["何部長佩珊：不是、不是……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以大家都要了解才會去簽連署嘛！所以這個部分，我們部長也很清楚……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我強調一下，可是它要訂成法律比較值得商榷，因為法律確實有不確定性的問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，不確定性就是要討論，看要怎麼樣去修改成比較符合嘛！所以現在就是很嚴重的高齡，但是我想要請教一下，我們60歲以上的人口占比例多少？就是我們的高齡人口。"],["何部長佩珊：我們60歲以上……委員，這個可不可以讓我再查一下？"],["麥委員玉珍：你都不知道多少的話，你怎麼知道高齡有沒有需要？所以現在我們的長照還有日照有沒有足夠？我要請教部長，你要不要準備基金、準備經費來養你的父母？"],["何部長佩珊：當然每個人都要準備……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以你另外一半的父母，你要不要去撫養？"],["何部長佩珊：這個要看世代啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：看世代，但是以你來說，你覺得你要不要撫養、要不要照顧？"],["何部長佩珊：我想這有點世代差異，比如說像年輕一代，他們對這樣就比較不接受。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是你說不接受……"],["何部長佩珊：當然在我這個年紀，應該普遍是接受的。"],["麥委員玉珍：不接受就變成我們的高齡沒人照顧，所以你的長照跟日照夠嗎？我們問題就在這裡，你覺得你是年輕人，照顧你的父母你回答得很清楚，但是照顧另外一半你就「伊伊啊啊」，就是會有這樣子的問題存在。所以不管怎麼樣，我們就是為了我們的高齡來創造一些福利，目前我們的日照、長照不足，所以我們的春城委員才覺得壯世代我們怎麼樣可以更完整，要切割出來怎麼樣去幫忙。所以你都不知道有多少人，有沒有什麼策略看我們怎麼樣去協助？"],["何部長佩珊：剛才委員你這邊顯示的就是20%，是嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：我顯示是因為我有去做功課嘛！你來被質詢沒有做功課嘛！所以現在要如何去協助我們的法案，是不是可以幫助有一群人，他們可以自己照顧自己，而且現在學校也少子化，是不是學校也可以作為另外一個壯世代法案裡面的長照或者日照中心，對我們的高齡也有幫助，對我們的家庭有幫助，對學校有幫助，對我們的長輩跟小孩的互動更有幫助，所以有沒有想到這樣子的一個方法？","因為時間有限，我先講完，我希望後面你可以給我一個書面讓我更瞭解，我們才能去幫助更多人。所以民間大家有一句話，部長知不知道？就是說「忙得要死，比閒閒死還好」，所以希望我們的長輩，他可以努力為了經濟、為了家庭，可以為了找回他的信心，雖然高齡但是就像大家常說的「退休但是不休」。這樣讓我們的高齡能在這個社會上貢獻，我們覺得「家有一老就是如一寶」，這樣子才是真正的對高齡有幫助。","我這邊的社團，每一個月都是去仁愛之家幫老人家剪頭髮，我們看到他們不是病死，是因為等不到人來看他，看不到孫子、看不到小孩，是悶死，你知道嗎？因此這一塊要怎麼樣去更完整？還有，我們春城委員的壯世代已經提出來，我們希望怎麼樣去照顧這群高齡，讓他們可以在專長上發揮，他們是一個資料庫，是可以幫助到我們下一代的，這個就是我們的需求，希望部長來支持我們壯世代的法案，以上報告，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥委員，謝謝部長、次長。","林岱樺委員、林岱樺委員，林岱樺委員不在。","林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員不在。","張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員，張啓楷委員不在。","林憶君委員、林憶君委員，林憶君委員不在。","顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員不在。","謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員，林俊憲委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員，廖先翔委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","陳超明委員、陳超明委員，陳超明委員不在。","接續我們請澎湖的楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156188","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156188","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bdb3a3be2fe19ecd86b4c0e929d5f577f4a204707c3feb4e4b6269e3722f5e7cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:16:28 - 11:23:48","影片長度":"00:07:20","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:16:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:23:48+08:00","duration":440,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.55346875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.764093750000001,"end":7.000343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.273468750000003,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.04909375,"end":100.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.07721875,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.35846875,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.28096875,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.96409375000002,"end":131.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.21721875,"end":131.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.43659375000001,"end":151.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.91096875,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.94471875000002,"end":147.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.04159375,"end":148.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.13409375,"end":154.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.14596875,"end":159.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.30971875,"end":163.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.98846875,"end":185.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.54534375,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.80159375000002,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.81846875000002,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.34159375000002,"end":172.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.48909375000002,"end":174.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.30221875,"end":181.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.86284375000002,"end":185.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.18346875,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.97471875000002,"end":198.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.37096875,"end":200.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.80471875,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.54284375,"end":207.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.36096875,"end":218.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.45659375000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.83284375000002,"end":244.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.80284375000002,"end":249.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.94159375,"end":248.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.22409375,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.88221875000002,"end":257.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.05034375000002,"end":257.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.89784375,"end":258.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.50534375,"end":268.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.57284375,"end":259.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.40784375000004,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.36971875,"end":263.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.91721875,"end":336.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.06909375000004,"end":296.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.49721875,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.06659375000004,"end":406.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.60034375000004,"end":408.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.85346875000005,"end":408.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.89534375000005,"end":409.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.92909375000005,"end":413.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.43034375,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.97846875000005,"end":424.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.66971875,"end":422.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.17159375,"end":431.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.90534375000004,"end":426.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.20471875000004,"end":428.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.84159375,"end":429.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.27596875,"end":430.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.03534375000004,"end":431.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.45721875000004,"end":434.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.84534375000004,"end":432.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.72284375000004,"end":433.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.08971875000003,"end":434.56221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.12346875000003,"end":434.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.66346875000005,"end":434.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.38909375000003,"end":439.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.38471875000005,"end":436.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.05971875,"end":437.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.97096875000005,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.96659375,"end":439.96221875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.625,"end":5.446,"text":"主席 請部長"},{"start":20.179,"end":42.709,"text":"部長好,今天就我們今天要討論的這個壯世代的政策還有產業發展促進法草案其實我們也知道就是說在如果以這個壯世代來講的話其實是應該是最有經驗的這個年齡就是說55歲可是我們一方面我們看到就是說在"},{"start":43.69,"end":53.238,"text":"主計總署有在112年12月有做一個統計就是55歲到59歲國人的這個勞參率差不多61.7那相較於50到54歲的這個勞參率是77.68差不多下降的是15.9%那另外我們又跟國際比的話我們的勞參率跟國際比我們的勞參率又更低"},{"start":70.913,"end":100.913,"text":"韓國﹖"},{"start":101.233,"end":101.253,"text":"韓國光議員"},{"start":132.115,"end":149.788,"text":"委員當然為了我們就有很多行政獎勵措施啦針對這一個中高齡就業以及婦女在就業包括55plus計畫婦女在就業獎勵包括對部分公司等等這些設計有給雇主然後也有給勞工這樣子這是行政措施的部分"},{"start":150.988,"end":173.773,"text":"有一個問題喔,就是說僱主他申請完之後,他可能那個申請的期間結束之後,他可能就請這一個員工就請他離開。其實我們也有碰到類似這樣的一個狀況。了解,那我們再來針對這部分,確實就是說這可能就是這個計畫結束後,對,它就會變成只是一個階段性的這樣子,而不是一個延續性的一直僱用這樣。"},{"start":175.834,"end":199.67,"text":"對,這我們來檢討就是說這個如何讓它延續性的僱用讓它獎勵又一直存在這可能支援我們要再必須再多投入這樣對,你們有沒有去做一個統計就是說在你們這個計劃期間可能這個女性的就業或者是二度就業因為你們有給這個僱主有一些補助所以僱主他也願意來申請"},{"start":200.29,"end":201.011,"text":"請署長回答可以嗎?"},{"start":219.5,"end":244.178,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們現在對不管中高齡、55歲以上或是婦女其實我們持續追蹤其實因為現在其實是因為缺工其實現在跟過去不太一樣其實我們在一年的這些想補助的措施結束後其實流動率還是很高啦,八九成都有但是確實會有少部分的業者可能他用完他就說那我就不要那這個我們來檢討我們整個計畫上所以你們有沒有做這樣的一個統計"},{"start":244.838,"end":268.968,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":269.188,"end":297.22,"text":"報告的一個資料過來那也知道說這個《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法》可能相對的會跨很多的部會那當然就是說尤其跟經濟部這邊可能會有產業的發展可能會有更密切的關係因為除了勞工勞動部這邊除了是勞工就業之外那產業的這個部分跟經濟部會有更大的一個關係所以我們也希望就是說"},{"start":298.16,"end":308.025,"text":"蔚來主席在召開這個公聽會之後廣聽各界的意見之後那下次應該再請經濟部這邊來主責那聽產業方面這邊要怎麼來做因應壯世代的這樣的一個產業的發展我覺得跟這個經濟部應該會有更密切的一個關係另外"},{"start":323.894,"end":340.849,"text":"我想再請教就是說其實我們知道說企業缺工那企業很多他們還是希望用禁用年輕年輕人好如果說你可能40幾歲以上你要再找工作確實非常的困難"},{"start":342.311,"end":361.128,"text":"我覺得勞動部應該也不會去否認就是說所有的企業或者是這個資方他希望禁用的就是禁用年輕的勞工那當然就是說我們會有一些誘因就是說可能勞動部這邊會有一些誘因來請資方這邊禁用這個中高齡的勞工那確實"},{"start":366.512,"end":388.492,"text":"要禁用的話還是有他的這個困難那我覺得說就像剛剛淑芬委員講的其實重點是在企業他要不要禁用當然我們有再多的這個利誘這個利誘給這些資方的話如果他不禁用的話或者是這個補助期間結束之後"},{"start":388.912,"end":389.012,"text":"﹚黃秀芳"},{"start":408.974,"end":409.114,"text":"謝謝委員,我們會來趕進。"},{"start":435.424,"end":435.444,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":582,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時16分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，就我們今天要討論的壯世代的政策，還有產業發展促進法草案，其實我們也知道，如果以壯世代來講的話，其實應該是最有經驗的年齡，就是55歲，可是我們一方面看到，主計總處在112年12月有做一個統計，就是55歲到59　歲的國人勞參率差不多是61.7%，相較於50到54歲的勞參率77.68%，下降15.9%。另外，我們的勞參率跟國際比，我們的勞參率又更低，在111年，跟國際比，55歲到59歲的勞參率我國是59.6%，低於美國的73.1%，日本是78%，韓國是76.4%，所以我們覺得55歲以上人口勞參率，我們還有進步的空間。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：確實我們看到國人的勞參率，尤其是55歲女性的勞參率，在這個時候也是整個下滑，雪崩式地下滑，所以我想請教部長，未來我們在這方面怎麼樣來協助55歲以上的人，如果他們還有心想要再就業的話，或者是女性就業的話，我們要怎麼去協助他們？我也看到在很多法案上面都有針對中高齡的部分做一些協助，那我是不是請部長再針對這部分來做一個說明？"],["何部長佩珊：是。委員，當然我們有很多行政獎勵措施，針對中高齡就業及婦女再就業，包括55Plus計畫、婦女再就業獎勵，包括對部分工時等等的設計，有給雇主，也有給勞工，這是行政措施的部分。也很感謝委員……"],["黃委員秀芳：有一個問題，雇主申請完之後，申請的期間結束之後，他可能就請這個員工離開，我們也有碰到類似這樣的狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：了解。那我們再來針對這部分……可能就是這個計畫結束，它就會變成只是階段性的僱用，而不是延續性的僱用。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：對，這我們來檢討，研議如何讓他們延續性地僱用，讓獎勵誘因一直存在，可能我們必須再多投入資源。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們有沒有去統計，在這個計畫期間，因為你們有給雇主一些補助，所以雇主也願意來申請，當這個計畫結束之後，可能雇主就請這個勞工離開了，像這樣，你們有沒有去做一個統計？就是說，在這個計畫結束之後，離開或繼續留下來的比例是多少？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長回答，可以嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實我們現在對於中高齡勞工、55歲以上勞工或婦女，我們都持續追蹤，現在其實是缺工，現在跟過去不太一樣，在一年享有這些補助的措施結束，留用率還是很高啦，達到八、九成都有，但是確實會有少部分的業者可能用完就說不要，這個我們來檢討整個計畫上要不要調整。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們有沒有做這樣的一個統計？"],["蔡署長孟良：相關的資料我們統計之後，是不是在會後給委員？"],["黃委員秀芳：確實有的雇主只是想要領補助而已，有這個狀況，確實有這個狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：少部分。"],["黃委員秀芳：會後再把統計的數字給我。"],["何部長佩珊：好，是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外就是說，今天我們看到各部會都有交報告的資料過來，也知道壯世代的政策和產業發展促進法，可能相對地會跨很多部會，尤其跟經濟部可能會就產業的發展有更密切的關係，因為除了勞動部這邊的勞工就業之外，產業的部分跟經濟部會有更大的關係，所以我們也希望未來主席召開公聽會，廣聽各界的意見之後，下次應該再請經濟部這邊來主責，在產業方面，怎麼來因應壯世代來推動產業的發展，我覺得跟經濟部應該會有更密切的關係。","另外，我想再請教，我們知道企業缺工，企業很多還是希望進用年輕人，四十幾歲以上的人要再找工作，確實非常困難，勞動部應該也不會否認，所有的企業或資方希望進用的就是年輕的勞工，那當然我們會有一些誘因，勞動部會有一些誘因來請資方進用中高齡的勞工，可是要進用的話，確實還是有困難，就像剛剛淑芬委員講的，其實重點是在企業要不要進用，當然我們有再多的利誘給這些資方的話，如果他們不進用的話，或者是補助期間結束之後，雇主就請勞工離開了，我覺得這個幫助還是不是很大，所以怎麼樣讓資方願意進用中高齡的員工，然後在接受我們的補助之後，還願意再繼續來進用，我覺得這應該是一個重點。"],["何部長佩珊：我們來改善。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我希望勞動部有統計資料之後，應該要有一些解決的方案，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：我們對企業其實也有很多誘因的設計，甚至包括輔導都有。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然，可是他們補助領完之後，時間到，他們就不再用了，這個是確實有這樣的一個狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：是，是，好，好。謝謝委員，我們會來改進。"],["黃委員秀芳：OK，好，謝謝。這樣有準時嗎？"],["主席：準時，準時，謝謝秀芳姐，謝謝部長。","再來請王育敏委員發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156187","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156187","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b723bb242a272b8696b4c0e929d5f577f1d1511f83239464256c4274c4566c6a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"14:30:38 - 14:38:41","影片長度":"00:08:03","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:30:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:38:41+08:00","duration":483,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.13221875,"end":0.21659375000000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.22471875,"end":4.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.705343750000001,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.72971875,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.52221875,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.41659375,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.66096875,"end":59.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.18596875,"end":62.789093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.32471875,"end":76.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.31846875000001,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.96346875,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.04346875,"end":89.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.55284375000001,"end":101.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.14159375000001,"end":103.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.23409375,"end":105.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.57971875000001,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.85284375,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.02534375,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.88159375000001,"end":144.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.18096875,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.19409375,"end":144.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.54846875,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.21909375,"end":157.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.69409375,"end":159.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.83721875,"end":169.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.32096875000002,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.38409375,"end":171.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.51034375,"end":173.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.26096875000002,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.40346875,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.19471875000002,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.17659375000002,"end":202.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.83471875,"end":202.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.15534375000001,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.23284375,"end":222.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.63346875000002,"end":230.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.83471875,"end":230.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.53909375,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.79159375,"end":235.85909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.85909375000003,"end":236.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.04471875000002,"end":239.23409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.62221875,"end":244.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.68909375,"end":244.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.36409375000002,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.39784375000002,"end":244.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.80284375000002,"end":267.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.86721875,"end":265.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.14096875,"end":271.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.89159375,"end":273.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.18221875,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.84346875,"end":286.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.99034375,"end":287.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.09159375,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.23471875,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.25971875,"end":293.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.24659375000005,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.23971875,"end":311.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.50971875000005,"end":313.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.53471875,"end":313.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.66971875,"end":316.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.68659375000004,"end":313.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.36096875000004,"end":319.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.09909375,"end":320.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.11596875000004,"end":320.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.13284375,"end":321.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.01034375,"end":326.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.71409375,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.73096875000005,"end":327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.54034375000003,"end":333.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.43471875,"end":355.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.20721875000004,"end":357.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.15221875000003,"end":361.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.15159375,"end":362.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.86034375,"end":363.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.02471875000003,"end":370.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.81784375,"end":365.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.61471875,"end":369.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.97721875,"end":372.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.06971875000005,"end":384.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.18784375,"end":373.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.08221875000004,"end":374.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.23346875000004,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.41471875,"end":380.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.41409375,"end":385.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.35471875,"end":393.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.43909375000004,"end":386.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.77534375000005,"end":396.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.30221875,"end":399.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.71534375000005,"end":400.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.21721875000003,"end":404.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.64284375000005,"end":405.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.97596875000005,"end":407.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.59596875000005,"end":409.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.65471875000003,"end":415.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.77284375000005,"end":410.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.98784375,"end":414.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.43846875,"end":418.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.47596875000005,"end":426.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.01971875000004,"end":426.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.23846875000004,"end":430.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.54159375,"end":436.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.78971875,"end":437.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.07659375000003,"end":439.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.65846875000005,"end":446.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.15534375000004,"end":447.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.25221875000005,"end":451.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.24784375,"end":448.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.47096875000005,"end":453.12471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.17971875,"end":452.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.85471875,"end":464.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.86971875,"end":466.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.32096875,"end":472.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.02034375000005,"end":477.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.23534375,"end":475.48409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.04096875000005,"end":478.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.89721875000004,"end":478.63971875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.093,"end":5.975,"text":"謝謝各位各位請一下何部長"},{"start":16.464,"end":41.861,"text":"部長好部長其實在台灣邁入超公營社會的時候相關的勞動力的調整跟勞工的政策確實是必須要調整我們今天審查重世代的政策跟產業發展促進法的草案今天做詢答所以我有幾個問題問一下部長"},{"start":45.723,"end":55.33,"text":"第一個就是呢假如按照就業人口來區分就今年的8月份的統計臺灣目前是未滿45歲的就業人數是成富成長的那45歲以上"},{"start":64.623,"end":85.595,"text":"也就是大概接近壯世代接近我們現在這種壯世代的就業其實是呈現正常其中又以65歲以上的銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜"},{"start":89.639,"end":103.025,"text":"也代表臺灣的勞動力市場其實已經沒有人口紅利請教一下部長就在勞動力的老化短缺不可逆的情況我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整"},{"start":105.019,"end":126.378,"text":"所以委員一個當然中高齡的促進就業這是一個面向對那其次當然因應這樣的人口的不再人口紅利我先插一下話就是說中高齡的就業是我們的勞工政策的調整"},{"start":127.699,"end":127.939,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":146.34,"end":174.645,"text":"是,就是說當然我們這部分有帶努力啦,因為台灣普遍早退啦,有一個早退的文化,那台灣當然在這樣子的就是說有跟鄰近國家比起來,我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的這樣子的社會文化也比較強。比較嚴重,就是年齡歧視比較嚴重。年齡歧視嚴重的原因是什麼?"},{"start":175.299,"end":175.779,"text":"那你們相對應的政策是什麼?"},{"start":204.003,"end":229.072,"text":"所以這個年齡的歧視當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定你歧視是要罰款的所以這是可以被處罰的這個我們在中高齡法是有明確定定的那當然謝謝委員不過部長我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消你職場"},{"start":231.493,"end":232.014,"text":"我不覺得單純的處罰可以。"},{"start":239.733,"end":263.344,"text":"是我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦也是有的比如什麼像我們的行政獎勵措施對55plus對婦女在就業我們就是給雇主跟勞工都給補助給獎勵那其實是一個正面鼓勵的讓你去任用中高齡而且是不再把這個把這當成資產啦這是一個紅利啦對把它當成是一個你的"},{"start":268.947,"end":293.203,"text":"這個職場上面的一個正面的因素來看我這邊的資料是55歲到剛剛部長講的55歲以上的受僱者收到年齡就業歧視的比例大概超過9%算很高確實蠻高的我也知道來東部大概每年都有"},{"start":294.264,"end":294.464,"text":"我現在是問你"},{"start":322.074,"end":339.771,"text":"我們正在檢討我們正在檢討而且應該是這部分的要拿出對策啦好不好好謝謝委員最後一個問題可能部長也沒有辦法回答了不過我先"},{"start":341.152,"end":353.4,"text":"先提出來其實根據審計部的報告其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長或者是沒有強制退休的年齡規定"},{"start":357.25,"end":372.537,"text":"我不知道部裡面現在的有沒有相關的政策方向。對,委員謝謝您今年就通過了拉基法第54條,雙方合意可以延長退休。合意完"},{"start":373.237,"end":396.308,"text":"延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事。當然。懂我的意思嗎?我現在問的是強制退休年齡。對,可是強制退休啊。部長這樣子,我幫你解一下。你們假如現在還沒有既定的政策方向,你就直接說沒有。"},{"start":397.352,"end":412.317,"text":"那假如有的話,你要說明再說明。懂我的意思嗎?因為我並不想太為難你。謝謝。強制退休也是一個重大的議題啦。這個知識體大需要...需要大家...對。這個關係..."},{"start":419.537,"end":438.608,"text":"我們現在先用合意推 就是我們先來落死牢計劃第54條這個修法為先啦所以說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情嘛現在是65歲想要自治退休然後可以合意研查嗎那我現在問的是你有"},{"start":440.004,"end":465.084,"text":"政府的政策方向對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有目前沒有考慮目前沒有考慮那你就回答這樣子就可以了不過因為既然有那麼多國家都在對沿你我們縱使目前沒有相關的資料的收集跟討論"},{"start":466.786,"end":474.476,"text":"我不是說必須要推出這樣的政策可是總是必須要先做因應可以來研究對好好好這我們來做謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1419,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（14時30分）謝謝召委，召委請一下何部長。"],["主席：何部長請。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，其實在臺灣邁入超高齡社會的時候，相關勞動力跟勞工的政策確實是必須要調整。我們今天審查「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法」的草案，今天作詢答，我有幾個問題問一下部長。第一個，假如按照就業人口來區分，就今年8月份的統計，臺灣目前未滿45歲的就業人數是呈負成長，而45歲以上也就是大概接近壯世代的就業人口，其實是呈現正常，其中又以65歲以上銀髮族的勞動力成長是最快速，這個就顯現勞動力正朝著65歲以上做傾斜，也代表臺灣的勞動力市場，其實已經沒有人口紅利。請教一下部長，在勞動力老化短缺不可逆的情況，我國的勞動政策會怎麼樣做調整？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，當然中高齡促進就業這是一個面向，其次因應這樣不再人口紅利……"],["楊委員曜：我先插一下話，就是中高齡的就業，在我們勞工政策的調整，可能在勞動部算是擺在很前面的……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員曜：可是我們看到對比於鄰近的國家，臺灣就中高齡的勞動參與率其實是相對低的，這個原因是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，當然我們這部分有待努力啦！因為臺灣普遍早退啦，有一個早退的文化，臺灣跟鄰近國家比起來，我們對年齡的歧視或者是對年齡的社會文化也比較強。"],["楊委員曜：比較嚴重？年齡歧視比較嚴重的原因是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：就是也不願意任用年紀比較大的嘛，比如像55歲，在一般公司行號55歲好像就應該要讓他退了，我們現在一般的社會認知啦！可是其實以現在來講，就已經太早了，當然包括我們整個社會文化啦，有這種問題。然後……"],["楊委員曜：那你們相對應的政策是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：這個年齡的歧視，當然確實也是我們要去努力來克服的，所以我們在中高齡法裡面也規定，歧視是要罰款的，所以這是可以被處罰的啦！這個我們在中高齡法是有明確訂定的，謝謝委員……"],["楊委員曜：不過部長，我不覺得光是用處罰的方式可以消弭職場、勞動力市場的年齡歧視，我不覺得單純的處罰可以。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們還有用更積極的鼓勵措施啦，也是有的。"],["楊委員曜：譬如什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：像我們的行政獎勵措施，對55Plus、對婦女再就業，我們對雇主跟勞工都會給補助、給獎勵，那其實是一個正面鼓勵，讓你去任用中高齡者，而且是把這個當成是資產、是一個紅利，就是把他當成職場上面一個正面的因素來看待。"],["楊委員曜：我這邊的資料是，就剛剛部長講的，55歲以上的受僱者，受到年齡就業歧視的比率大概超過9%，算很高耶！"],["何部長佩珊：確實是滿高的。"],["楊委員曜：我也知道勞動部大概每年都有運用就安基金辦理防制就業歧視等等的業務，我不知道為什麼推了這麼久，我們中高齡就業者面臨的歧視還是那麼嚴重……"],["何部長佩珊：這確實值得檢討。"],["楊委員曜：我現在是問你檢討了沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：有，我們正在檢討，而且應該這部分……"],["楊委員曜：要拿出對策，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：最後一個問題，可能部長也沒有辦法回答，不過，我就先提出來，根據審計部的報告，其實有許多國家已經逐步在延長，或者是沒有強制退休年齡的規定，我不知道部裡現在有沒有相關的政策方向？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，謝謝您今年通過了勞基法第五十四條，雙方合意可以延長退休。"],["楊委員曜：不是，合意延長退休跟強制退休年齡是兩件事，懂我的意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["楊委員曜：我現在問的是強制退休年齡。"],["何部長佩珊：可是強制退休……"],["楊委員曜：部長，我幫你結尾一下，假如你們現在還沒有既定的政策方向，你就直接說沒有；假如有的話，你要說明再說明，懂我的意思嗎？因為我並不想太為難你。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。強制退休也是一個重大的議題，這個茲事體大，需要大家……"],["楊委員曜：不重大我也不會提出來，所以部裡面現在沒有……"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在先用合意來推動，就是我們先來落實勞基法第五十四條的修法。"],["楊委員曜：我知道！我知道！只是說你回答的跟我問的是兩件事情，現在是65歲強制退休，然後可以合意延長，我現在問的是，勞動部這邊有沒有政策方向，對於強制退休年齡的延後有沒有……"],["何部長佩珊：目前沒有考慮。"],["楊委員曜：目前沒有考慮？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員曜：你回答這樣子就可以了。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：不過，因為既然有那麼多國家都在研擬，我們縱使目前沒有，但相關資料的蒐集跟討論還是要進行，我不是說必須要推出這樣子的政策，但總是要先做因應。"],["何部長佩珊：可以來研究。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們會來做，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員盧縣一、張嘉郡、陳超明、林憶君、邱議瑩、邱志偉、謝衣鳯所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","一、請問勞動部：2024年2月起推動「55 Plus 壯世代就業促進措施」有哪些？目前推動成效如何？本計畫是否含協助中高年齡失業原住民族人重返職場案例？","二、請問行政院、衛福部：據內政部「111年原住民簡易生命表」，原住民平均餘命仍比全體國民低，甚至「山地原住民」還比「平地原住民」低，行政院有何因應之道？另外，行政院「因應超高齡社會對策方案」整合15部會、345項工作，112至115年投入逾1,200億元預算，其中是否有針對原住民族部分？"],["委員張嘉郡書面質詢：","請勞動部：","●今天在經濟委員會，正在討論少子化問題，根據國發會公布2024人口推估報告，我國的人口將一路銳減，至2040年時，每年新生兒數也將跌破10萬大關，到時，勞動市場的人口結構會被大幅改變，如何讓勞動力能夠延續，是牽動整個社會結構、國家稅收乃至於國家存亡的大議題，所以今日吳春城委員致力推動【壯世代草案】，相當重要，刻不容緩。","●本席首先要請教的是有關退休年齡問題，我們內閣首長總平均歲數62.5歲，我們行政院卓院長，今年也是65歲，如果參考最近的民調，有近7成受訪者認為強制退休不合理、超過7成贊成廢除強制退休制度，並有近6成認為強制退休制度違憲，可見國民對強制退休的規定已有相當共識，因為沒有人希望，自己在65歲以後就變成次等公民，連人生自主權都無法掌握。本席要請教勞動部，對於如何協助55歲以上壯世代續留或重返職場，你們有那些具體的方案？","●我們可以看到，我們的鄰國日本，同樣面臨高齡少子化的問題，在2021年，日本政府通過《國家公務員法》修正案，將國家公務員的退休年齡從現在的60歲逐步提高到65歲。在企業界，豐田（Toyota）汽車，重新聘僱65歲以上的中高齡高階員工、最多可工作到70歲，期望透過回聘資深員工、解決勞動力短缺和生產線的產力問題。台灣的高齡少子化問題同樣嚴重，有鑑於此，本席認為不管是經濟部、勞動部應該對於如何鼓勵企業聘用中高齡狀世代，要有相關的措施。","●最後本席也建議，行政院應該針對狀世代之政策之規劃，成立一個狀世代政策統籌辦公室，因為我們可以看到，這個議題牽涉各部會，勢必會需要一個跨部會的協調機制，才能讓相關政策更完備，甚至行政機關也可以針對狀世代草案提出對案，讓討論更充分，更多元。"],["委員陳超明書面質詢：","勞動部將「中高齡勞工」的定義，以45歲為分水嶺，根據國發會的推估，全台灣45歲以上的壯世代，在明年將突破半數，達到百分之51，也就是每2個人就有1人超過45歲，2025年台灣65歲以上人口，占總人口比率即將突破百分之20，也是是每5個人中就有1個人超過65歲。台灣的人口紅利正式結束，社會不再有充沛的青壯勞力，人力資源將面臨重整。未來退休是否應由當事人自行決定而非由法規或企業強迫，經濟部、勞動部針對企業進用人力，是否鬆綁的規劃或獎助措施？"],["委員林憶君書面質詢：","1、 根據統計，2019年出生人數與與死亡人數「黃金交叉」後，至今仍舊「生不如死」，去年我國生育率僅0.87人，是全球第二低的國家。因此，本席認為，雖然政府過去八年很認真挽救生育，但各部會的努力所投入的鉅額經費及推動的政策沒有發揮效果，政府愈努力、情況愈糟糕。對此，行政院有什麼看法？拯救低迷的生育率仍是目標嗎？若是，該如何達成目標？","二、根據《遠見》2023年「台灣迎向超高齡社會大調查」1發現，逾八成民眾考慮重返職場，只是回歸形式不一。其中有三成民眾表示任何形式都接受，但退休後重返職場的回歸模式，仍以特定公司的兼職工作為主、占30.1%。","https://www.gvm.com.tw/article/105424","在問到是否認為或感受到職場對中高齡者有差別待遇時，只有16.3%表示都沒感受到。反之，約83%民眾感受年齡差別待遇，前三大差別待遇是升遷加薪機會變少（47.9%）、被勸退（44%）、職位易被調動或降階（30.8%）。","中高齡重回職場的阻礙有哪些？整體指出四大原因：被認定體力不濟，無法長時間工作（58.3%）；企業不喜中高齡、錄取率低（54.8%）；專業能力不足或已過時（36.4%）；職位高不成低不就、很尷尬（35.3%）。2","由上述可知，民眾有意在退休後回到職場，可是職場氛圍不一定友善，請問行政院對於年齡歧視有什麼對策嗎？請財政部研議為聘用中高齡者的企業給予賦稅補助以增加誘因，並於二個月內給予本席書面報告。","2 \n            \n                https://www.gvm.com.tw/article/116269","三、今年7月本院三讀通過勞基法第54條修正，增訂了「所規定之年齡，得由勞雇雙方協商延後之」。鼓勵勞資雙方間可以透過協商，合意延後強制退休年齡。然而，並不是勞工年滿65歲，都不再會被強制退休、可以繼續工作。也就是，如果雇主堅持，還是可以強制員工退休。而修法前後差別在於，把協商明定化，因為在修法前，勞資就可以協商，修法後鼓勵協商，法條的「得」並不具有強制性。勞動部是否認為這法條是變相的加深年齡歧視嗎？本席理解，勞動市場上有供需，不應該強制雇主聘用中高齡者，然而就實際面而言，他們有意願卻是弱勢。勞動部是否支持退休年齡延後？配合本席前述所提及之提供賦稅補助來營造友善的就業環境？以因應未來國家的危機。"],["委員邱議瑩書面質詢：","少子化綜覽：","1.因為國發會每兩年要發布1次人口推估，10月17日發報2024年版，少子高齡化趨勢更為嚴峻，引發社會高度關注，因此安排此次專報。","2.國發會僅負責人口推估，實際上的少子高齡化政策，是由教育部、衛福部主責。","3.少子高齡化趨勢是不可逆的；這是基於社會發展下必然的趨勢，無分哪個政黨執政；再多政策獎勵只能趨緩惡化的速率，無法逆轉。","4.就世界各國而言，這也是普遍的趨勢；只是東亞的韓國、台灣、新加坡、中國、日本更為嚴重；反而更早進入文明階段的西北歐、美國、澳洲，生育率有穩住，延緩少子高齡化趨勢。","5.既然這是無法改變的趨勢，所以要檢討在野黨各種杯葛預算、奪權的亂政，是讓少子高齡化更雪上加霜。","報告內容：","1.先解讀國發會最新版報告重點：少子高齡化趨勢不可逆且更為惡化。連續引述國發會報告4張內容，首先是總人口減少的趨勢，非常明顯。其次是生產者與老年人口之比將於2070年達1，也就是1名15-64歲的人，要養育1名老人或兒童。接下來兩張是呈現這次的推估，比起2022年的推估，更為惡化。","2.國發會最新版報告重點2：少子高齡化是全球趨勢。述國發會報告2張內容，凸顯東亞的韓國、台灣、新加坡、中國、日本少子高齡化更為嚴重；反而更早進入文明階段的西北歐、美國、澳洲，生育率有穩住，延緩少子高齡化趨勢。可以詢問教育部、衛福部西北歐、美國、澳洲等國，為何有辦法維持高生育率？有無值得台灣借鏡的地方？","3.開始檢視目前的少子高齡化政策。","●卓榮泰內閣有構思育兒零負擔，但只有媒體披露過，尚未成形。目標是給予每個孩子每月補助，直到念幼兒園為止。可詢問目前規劃到哪？","●0-6歲國家一起養2.0。目前能提供60萬個0-6歲托育名額。","■今年起：公托補助每月5,500元→7,000元；準公托補助每月8,500元→1.3萬元","■2歲專班已增設1,078班；未來兩年再增200班","■是否會因為總預算案遭擋而受影響？","4.任何獎勵、友善生育政策，都只能減緩、無法逆轉少子高齡化趨勢。如果連這些激勵政策都遭到政治干擾，不就雪上加霜？","●財劃法依在野黨版本通過：中央喪失4,000億元的掌控權，僅剩3,600億元。少子化對策計畫294億元將何去何從？","●2025年度總預算案","■0-6歲國家一起養2.01082億元，較上年度增加41億元","■兒童及青少年1,335億元，較上年度增加44億元","◆教育部：發展並健全幼稚教育、高中職輔助學費措施、高中職免學費方案","◆衛福部：0至2歲育兒津貼補助、公共及準公共化托育服務","◆勞動部：勞工育嬰留職停薪津貼","■婦女88億元，較上年度增加22億元","◆衛福部：人工生殖技術補助、孕婦產前檢查服務","◆教育部：國民小學學童課後照顧、特殊境遇婦女之子女教育補助","◆國防部：提升性別平等友善工作環境","◆內政部：新住民家庭學習成長、子女托育","■有這麼多新增預算攸關少子高齡化政策，相關部會有無評估，若總預算案真的被阻，未來要如何執行？","人口警報大響，國發會10月17日提出少子化、勞動市場、經濟與產業、財政收支及社會環境等五面向對策，預計明年2月將邀集各相關部會召開會議，研提具體對策。國家人口政策刻不容緩，為何要等到明年2月才要開會？","旅宿業可聘僑外生從事中階技術工作","交通部觀光署評估國內缺乏在旅宿業從事房務、清潔、訂房、接待或旅宿所屬餐廳外場等工作人才，因此，8月28日起，將開放僑外生可從事旅宿業中階技術工作。","勞動力發展署說，只要是領有交通部核發觀光旅館經營執照的觀光旅館業、領有地方政府核發旅館業登記證或民宿登記證的旅宿業者，都可以申請聘僱畢業僑外生從事旅宿服務中階工作，聘僱名額則依該旅宿業員工勞保人數的3成來計算。","勞動力發展署表示，只要副學士以上學位畢業的僑外生，且接受過國內大專校院、觀光署或產業公協會累計80小時以上實習訓練課程，都可以從事旅宿業中階技術工作；也規定初次受聘薪資門檻為新臺幣3萬元、續聘3.3萬元，希望透過擴大開放僱用僑外生，紓解決旅宿業缺工狀況。目前成效如何？","此外，勞動力發展署也說，年底前將跨部會協商修法，建立僑外生個人工作許可制，擴大留用僑外生補實各行業勞動力；至於其他產業所反映的缺工，像是缺乏醫院照護輔佐人力、物流倉儲理貨人力、貨車駕駛及助理人力、公路及市區汽車客運駕駛及安全管理人力等，後續，將由國發會、勞動部、衛福部、經濟部及交通部跨部會共同評估運用僑外生人力解決缺工。","3+4僑生專班議題","我國面臨人口結構高齡化、少子化及國際人才競逐等諸多挑戰，為強化產業競爭力，填補人力缺口，除了擴大引進外籍移工，先行吸收和儲備海外人才也是政府部門的共同目標。在國發會整體規劃下，僑委會、教育部、勞動部各有自己的目標，而早在2014年開始，僑委會也開始擴大招募僑生，而且從16歲的孩子招攬起。","少子女化年代，台灣眾多私立高職面臨存亡關鍵，它們在國家政策「3＋4產學攜手合作僑生專班」裡找到一個藥方。2014年（103學年度）起不過短短10年間，這些學校已漸漸靠著東南亞7國「僑生」續命；明年3萬名私立高職生中，每4名就將有1位「僑生」。","各行業欠缺基層勞工，過往還有台籍的「建校合作生」實習、填補人力，但近年連台灣學生也漸漸棄守這條就學管道，僑生意外填補了人力空缺。","「3＋4產學攜手合作僑生專班」（簡稱3＋4僑生專班）。由於是僑生系統，此學制是2014年由僑委會主導，教育部和勞動部配合辦理而生，招收16～22歲的學生來台，先讀完3年高職後，直升各校合作的私立科技大學再讀4年，總共留學7年。","擁有東南亞7國身分證的學生都能申請，唯一門檻是，必須先在當地的「中華民國駐外機構」考過最初階（A1）的華語文能力測驗（TOCFL）。","報導者報導中提到：來台僑生抱怨與赴台求學前的期待，相差甚遠，除了語言障礙，即使僑生能講著流利中文，學校、廠商都未必安排循序漸進的技職訓練：「來到這邊之後才理解，3＋4講難聽就是，你只是披著學生外套的外勞，做台灣人不想做的工作。」也提到勞動現場太缺工，有廠商要求僑生假造班表的亂象。是少數個案還是普遍情況？","僑生3+4專班畢業率及留臺率仍屬偏低","監察院112年12月報告也指出：僑委會辦理「產學攜手合作僑生專班（3+4）」之畢業率及留臺率仍屬偏低，整體效益不彰，促請行政院轉飭僑委會、經濟部、教育部及勞動部檢討改善。","監察委員范巽綠、賴振昌及林盛豐表示：僑委會前自103年起擴大辦理「產學攜手合作僑生專班（3+4）」，112年招生人數已達4,069人；惟目前第1至第3屆完成7年（3+4）學業之畢業率分別僅為43.77%、34.36%及25.51%，均未及5成，而留臺率則分別為38.79%、31.69%及24.54%，實際人數只有109人、154人及185人，整體效益不彰。","且該會近期預估至120學年時，專班將達成7成以上之畢業率及留臺率，仍未見精準分析，均有待積極改善。各部會要如何檢討改善，為台灣留住人材？"],["委員邱志偉書面質詢：","議題：壯世代就業","1.人口結構變化與企業人力策略調整","隨著2024年台灣45歲以上人口將佔全人口的一半，且到2028年工作年齡人口將降至66.3%，政府是否已制定政策來協助企業應對人口紅利結束和勞動力供應減少的挑戰？有哪些具體措施能幫助企業調整人力策略，尤其在高齡化社會中，如何提升45歲以上勞動力的利用率？","2.企業招募困難與政府支持政策","隨著企業在未來面臨傳統用人模式下的招募困難，政府是否有引導企業改變用人觀念，善用壯年勞動力的政策？此外，針對壯世代新進員工佔比僅7%的情況，政府有無推動措施促使企業調整招募策略，聘用更多壯年人才？","3.消除年齡歧視與職場刻板印象","儘管法律已禁止年齡歧視，許多企業仍存在對壯年勞工的刻板印象。政府是否有具體措施推動企業落實法規，並協助打破年齡偏見？針對體能限制的「資深勞工」，是否有職務再設計補助計畫，協助他們在勞動市場上保持競爭力？","4.再就業與薪資保障","針對「資深勞工」在再就業時遇到薪資下降的問題，政府是否有推動企業提供符合市場行情的薪酬政策，避免因薪資過低而招不到足夠人力？如何鼓勵企業正視這些勞工的再就業需求？","5.專業技能培訓與學習能力提升","針對「資深勞工」在就業時常被質疑學習能力，行政單位是否有推動更多技術訓練及證照考取機會的計畫，幫助他們提升職場競爭力？針對這些勞工缺乏專業技能而難以找到理想工作的現象，政府有無提供更多針對非體力勞動的職業培訓？","6.工作彈性與「資深勞工」的聘用困境","許多「資深勞工」因無法配合加班、應酬或出差，導致企業不願聘用。政府有何措施協助他們平衡工作彈性與企業需求，以避免限制過多影響工作機會？"],["委員謝衣鳯書面質詢：","一、壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案，旨在應對高齡化現象，促進產業發展以因應人口變遷所帶來的新社會與市場結構。該法案的目標是解決國家政策制定與產業發展在面對人口變遷時的挑戰，以避免銀髮海嘯對國家造成負面影響。壯世代概念是反年齡歧視的良好概念，意在引起對於高齡對策的重視，並期望透過相關法案推動改善壯年世代的就業狀況，以及適應勞動市場的變化需求。","二、而根據國家發展委員會的預估：15-24歲占總勞動力比率，到2030年將降為6.2%，預估25-54歲占總勞動力比率2030年將降為69.9%。未來55歲及以上占總勞動力比率將持續攀升，2030年增加至23.8%，可見我國核心勞動力年齡持續向後遞延，因此友善中高齡就業勢不可擋。而攸關勞動人力的目的事業主管機關，包含了勞動部、經濟部、農業部、衛福部、國發會等行政機關。因此為推動所謂狀世代的經濟與就業，採取增立專法，來整合相關部會及政策，亦為立法政策上可採行之方式。但依據前面的論述，可瞭解該事務亟需跨部會密切且深入的合作，絕非單一部會可以獨攬，對此應審慎立法，以確保部會能跨部會合作，真正落實該法的立法目的。"],["主席：作以下決議：說明及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者從其所定。","委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」，委員會另擇期辦公聽會及繼續審查。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（14時39分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156186","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156186","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b79750b73ae882ed8e0551f8101295a211d1511f8323946421c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"14:28:41 - 14:34:40","影片長度":"00:05:59","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:28:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:34:40+08:00","duration":359,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.890968750000001,"end":8.265968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.485343750000002,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.058468750000003,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.05346875,"end":139.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.11034375,"end":145.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.16846875000002,"end":183.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.98534375,"end":185.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.26346875000002,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.30034375000002,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.78971875000002,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.16409375,"end":202.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.30721875,"end":203.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.02721875,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.60659375,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.98096875000005,"end":271.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.66784375000003,"end":271.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.70159375000003,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.75221875,"end":271.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.78596875,"end":273.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.83659375,"end":280.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.57784375,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.67909375,"end":297.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.19534375,"end":317.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.78721875,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.96471875000003,"end":343.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.09971875,"end":343.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.30221875,"end":346.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.64346875,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.49096875000004,"end":354.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.16534375000003,"end":357.07221875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.909,"end":14.07,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請公平會李主委好 李主委李主委好好打 拜託"},{"start":18.383,"end":32.09,"text":"好謝謝主席的提醒啊這其實這個我們在經濟委員會很多委員會都已經關心過了因為其實上一次就是在經濟委員會大家都提醒說生怕當兩家合併之後變成一個外送巨獸會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況"},{"start":36.312,"end":65.394,"text":"那我在這邊也再具體建議啦我今天不會跟你講說什麼運費到底要多少很明確的給大家這樣的指引但我希望談一個比較上位的政策因為接下來你們要補件嘛請他們補件10月8號之前補件之後要開始審查那審查的基準是什麼我在這邊給一些具體的建議因為其實現在我非常關心外送員權益的問題那外送員他們其實的工會也有提了幾大訴求那我相信大家也都知道那我這邊"},{"start":66.595,"end":86.604,"text":"給一個例子因為其實在2021年西班牙他們有直接公佈一個相關的法律他們說外送的平台應該要定期的提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟牢固關係有影響的數學公式讓大家知道這樣子這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性"},{"start":87.524,"end":109.765,"text":"這什麼意思呢?也就是說在這個其實現在這個數位平台這兩家平台裡面有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算然後包括他要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制就是到底撥多少比例給外送員然後包括派單的建議什麼的然後還有你去哪邊先領單這些其實他都是自己說用一個系統運算告訴你"},{"start":110.606,"end":135.083,"text":"可是這些不透明的情況下其實外送員是毫無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障所以剛剛其實很多委員都講了透明化非常重要那這個其實國外不管是西班牙還是法國其實他們都直接寫進法令然後也都有相關具體的指引了就是告訴你說你就是這些公式透明化之後不只是外送員看得到消費者也看得到"},{"start":135.723,"end":157.1,"text":"大家都可以知道說我大概就是在這樣子公平的基準之下才不會有人因為資訊的不透明資訊的不對等然後被剝削所以現在接下來在你們補件以及接下來的審查意見當中我希望可以有這麼具體的就是讓大家知道包括現在消費者很擔心說哇是不是真的要變60塊以上"},{"start":158.661,"end":185.501,"text":"然後包括外送員也很擔心說好其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到因為獎薪薪酬的制度包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢全部都被平台吃掉店家更擔心他們從頭到尾都覺得我已經很辛苦了我在那邊成本都不夠付結果從頭到尾都只有平台在賺這個都是各方現在的擔心所以我希望你們接下來的審查可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查可以嗎"},{"start":186.408,"end":207.696,"text":"我想跟委員回報我們審查的結果有三種可能一種是禁止那禁止就不會還要負什麼條件叫他做什麼事禁止就是不可以結合那第二個如果同意了同意了那有很多疑慮有可能有條件同意負條件的問題那這是兩種情形另外一種就是完全同意都沒有負條件"},{"start":208.636,"end":229.076,"text":"那所以這個還是要看我們將來委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向是那其實我有去看你們公平會的就是第一次的審查結果然後要求他們補件那我在這邊再提一個概念就是數位壟斷的風險這其實在美國有就是11個州他們聯合向這個聯邦政府提起訴訟要求因為後來Google敗訴了"},{"start":231.778,"end":256.914,"text":"還有他們說Google壟斷了數位的平台那這種數位壟斷的情況其實在各個國家也都在發生當一個數位平台或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨佔的時候像如果這兩家加起來是佔率超過八成那所有全部都他們掌控啊不管你的演算法要怎麼算包括你廣告怎麼投放包括你怎麼派單全部都是他們一家決定所以接下來你們必須要注重的是這一種數位壟斷的問題"},{"start":258.715,"end":264.22,"text":"那因為其實在你們原本審查意見當中可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們"},{"start":266.052,"end":290.238,"text":"把持的權力是這麼大你們可能就是覺得就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看所以我希望的是會不會變成一個獨佔是也是我們在審這個結額案件很重要的考量因素是對所以我希望在這邊具體的建議啦接下來可能造成數位壟斷的情況包括他可能已經佔據所有市場版面然後廣告投放"},{"start":290.578,"end":317.279,"text":"甚至是最後他可以去操控市場價格了這個拜託務必公平會要依據這樣的原則來進行可以嗎好那最後我再提一個小小的提醒就是個資的保護因為其實剛剛都提到的是市場的面向那最後提醒一下如果因為其實現在富培納他們手中有300萬筆的個資消費者的資料那如果他們兩家合併之後這個300萬筆UberEats就收走了"},{"start":317.859,"end":345.81,"text":"那這是非常嚴重的一個風險所以我希望說接下來在個資保護上面雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關但是這個審查原則裡面其實跟所有使用者息息相關那這個也是我在這邊提醒也希望呼籲接下來在審查所有的審查委員在執行的時候務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷"},{"start":346.69,"end":356.845,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那就希望如所有委員建議的這些原則之外時程也要拉出來好嗎好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1197,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（14時28分）謝謝主席，請公平會李主委。"],["主席：好，李主委。李主委好好答，拜託。"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主席的提醒，其實這個我們在經濟委員會、很多委員會都已經關心過了，因為上一次在經濟委員會時大家都提醒說，生怕當兩家合併之後，變成一個外送巨獸，會不會變成大家全盤皆輸的狀況，我也再具體建議，我今天不會跟你講什麼運費到底要多少，很明確地給大家這樣的指引，但我希望談一個比較上位的政策，因為接下來你們要補件，請他們在11月8號之前補件，之後要開始審查，那審查的基準是什麼，我在這邊給一些具體的建議，因為我非常關心外送員權益的問題，外送員工會其實也有提了幾大訴求，我相信大家也都知道，我這邊給一個例子，2021年西班牙他們有直接公布一個相關的法律，他們說外送的平臺應該要定期地提供AI演算法運算的參數、規則、指令還有跟勞僱關係有影響的數學公式，讓大家知道這個公式裡面的公平性跟透明性，這什麼意思呢？也就是說，現在這兩家數位平臺裡面，有非常多是仰賴他們自己的機制去運算，包括它要怎麼停權、停權的機制、獎酬的機制，就是到底撥多少比例給外送員，包括派單的建議什麼的，還有先去哪邊領單，這些它都是說用一個系統運算告訴你，可是在這些資訊不透明的情況下，其實外送員無從得知他的權益有沒有被保障。","所以剛剛很多委員都講了，透明化非常重要，國外不管是西班牙還是法國，其實他們都直接寫進法令，然後也都有相關具體的指引，就是告訴大家，這些公式透明化之後，不只是外送員看得到，消費者也看得到，大家都可以知道，大概就是在這樣的公平基準之下，才不會有人因為資訊的不透明、資訊的不對等，然後被剝削。所以在接下來的補件以及接下來的審查意見當中，我希望可以這麼具體的讓大家知道，包括現在消費者很擔心，是不是真的要變60塊以上；包括外送員也很擔心，其實我的錢根本就沒有拿到，因為獎金、薪酬的制度，包括我到底接幾單可以加多少錢，全部都被平臺吃掉；店家更擔心，他們從頭到尾都覺得自己已經很辛苦了，成本可能都不夠付了，結果從頭到尾都只有平臺在賺，這個都是現在各方的擔心，所以我希望你們接下來的審查，可以依據這麼具體的建議來進行相關的審查，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想跟委員回報，我們審查的結果有三種可能，一種是禁止，禁止就不會還要附什麼條件、叫它做什麼事，禁止就是不可以結合；第二個，如果同意了，但還有很多疑慮，這時就有附條件的問題，這是兩種情形；另外一種就是完全同意，都沒有附條件，所以這個還是要看將來我們委員會討論的結果是哪一種方向。"],["黃委員捷：是，其實我有去看你們公平會的第一次審查結果，是有要求他們補件，我這邊再提一個概念，就是數位壟斷的風險，其實美國有11個州聯合向聯邦政府提起訴訟，後來是Google敗訴了，他們說Google壟斷了數位的平臺，這種數位壟斷的情況，其實在各個國家也都有發生，當一個數位平臺或是某一個數位產業只有一家獨占的時候，像我們這兩家加起來市占率超過八成，所有全部都由他們掌控，不管你的演算法要怎麼算，包括你廣告怎麼投放，包括你怎麼派單，全部都是他們一家決定。所以接下來你們必須注重的是這一種數位壟斷的問題，因為在你們原本的審查意見當中，可能沒有這麼注意到現在數位產業他們把持的權力是這麼大，你們可能就是依據這種很市場面的東西去看……"],["李主任委員鎂：結合以後會不會變成一個獨占，這也是我們在審這個結合案件很重要的考量因素。"],["黃委員捷：所以我在這邊具體建議，接下來是有可能造成數位壟斷的情況，包括它可能已經占據所有市場版面，還有廣告投放，甚至最後它可以去操控市場價格了，所以拜託公平會務必要依據這樣的原則來進行，可以嗎？","最後，我再提一個小小的提醒，就是個資的保護，因為剛剛提到的都是市場的面向，最後提醒一下，因為現在foodpanda他們手中有300萬筆個資、消費者的資料，如果他們兩家合併之後，這300萬筆Uber Eats就收走了，這是一個非常嚴重的風險。所以我希望接下來在個資保護上面，雖然公平會可能覺得跟你們無關，但是在這個審查原則裡面，其實也跟所有使用者息息相關，這也是我要在這邊提醒的，也呼籲接下來進行審查的所有審查委員，在執行的時候，務必也要考慮到這麼基本的面向。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個都會是我們在競爭考量因素裡面去做評斷的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委，希望就如所有委員建議的這些原則之外，時程也要拉出來，好嗎？好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來有請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆、賴士葆委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：第一，報告及詢答完畢。第二，委員游顥、陳冠廷所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。第三，委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或者未及答復的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156185","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156185","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b0812023e28d843e4e0551f8101295a211d1511f83239464286cf5dcbc0b7422b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"14:15:13 - 14:28:05","影片長度":"00:12:52","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:15:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:28:05+08:00","duration":772,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":3.8615937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.148468750000001,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.83409375,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.77659375,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":81.99284375,"end":94.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":94.85159375,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":96.31971875,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.00534375000001,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":112.80659375,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.66221875000001,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.42159375000001,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.85409375,"end":133.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.54596875000001,"end":142.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.01721875,"end":149.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.84784375,"end":146.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.41284375,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":153.12096875,"end":153.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.37346875,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":163.39784375000002,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.54534375,"end":169.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":168.56159375000001,"end":170.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.18159375000002,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":188.94659375,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.83659375000002,"end":191.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.88284375,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.96721875,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.37221875,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.60409375,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.03096875,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":222.47721875000002,"end":235.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.07846875,"end":237.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.73221875000002,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":243.77346875,"end":243.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.84909375,"end":247.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.72221875000002,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.88659375,"end":249.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.07534375,"end":290.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":290.71971875,"end":305.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.11096875000004,"end":299.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":305.70471875000004,"end":307.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.44284375,"end":311.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":310.00784375,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.59409375,"end":323.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":320.77409375,"end":322.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":322.63034375,"end":323.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.87909375000004,"end":325.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":324.31784375,"end":330.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.10596875000005,"end":333.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":330.12284375,"end":330.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":331.79346875000005,"end":345.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.86721875,"end":345.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":345.93471875,"end":345.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.00221875,"end":347.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.84159375,"end":359.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":359.33346875,"end":368.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":368.78346875,"end":378.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.89159375,"end":379.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":378.95909375,"end":379.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.90409375,"end":380.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.03909375,"end":387.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.70534375,"end":383.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":386.36721875,"end":389.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.54846875000004,"end":393.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":392.40846875,"end":393.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":394.38284375,"end":395.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.90159375,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":398.31471875000005,"end":414.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":415.25721875000005,"end":424.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.23971875,"end":419.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":424.82534375,"end":425.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.06159375000004,"end":425.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.23034375000003,"end":453.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":436.33409375,"end":436.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":436.95846875,"end":437.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":453.83346875,"end":489.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.68346875000003,"end":469.12221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.20659375,"end":469.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":489.67596875000004,"end":498.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":499.17659375000005,"end":516.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":517.1484687500001,"end":521.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.78534375,"end":518.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":521.3503437500001,"end":531.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":532.15034375,"end":536.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":537.1284687500001,"end":541.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":541.0265937500001,"end":541.9209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":541.9209687499999,"end":541.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":541.93784375,"end":553.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":549.41346875,"end":550.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":551.35409375,"end":551.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":554.34096875,"end":572.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":554.37471875,"end":555.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.9778437500001,"end":556.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.42909375,"end":559.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":559.0322187500001,"end":559.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.38659375,"end":559.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":559.43721875,"end":559.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.6059687500001,"end":559.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":565.15784375,"end":565.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.46159375,"end":565.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":568.97159375,"end":570.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":572.2790937500001,"end":572.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":572.9709687500001,"end":576.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":577.56096875,"end":578.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":579.63659375,"end":581.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":581.9822187500001,"end":582.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":583.06221875,"end":584.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":585.10409375,"end":586.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":586.5890937500001,"end":593.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":594.25034375,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":605.0334687500001,"end":618.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":613.70721875,"end":614.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":614.3315937500001,"end":616.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":616.81221875,"end":621.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":622.70159375,"end":626.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":627.49409375,"end":633.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.61221875,"end":627.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":634.1259687500001,"end":635.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":636.7922187500001,"end":645.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":641.1459687500001,"end":663.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.9722187500001,"end":646.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":646.46159375,"end":646.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":651.0515937499999,"end":652.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.2665937500001,"end":652.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":656.5190937500001,"end":657.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":662.8134687500001,"end":663.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":663.75846875,"end":663.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":663.8259687500001,"end":664.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":664.33221875,"end":664.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":664.9734687499999,"end":666.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":667.09971875,"end":668.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":668.5847187500001,"end":672.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":672.71909375,"end":676.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":676.95471875,"end":676.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":678.1528437500001,"end":678.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":678.1865937500002,"end":679.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":679.9922187500001,"end":689.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":688.34534375,"end":689.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":690.3703437500001,"end":701.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":701.98034375,"end":704.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":704.41034375,"end":705.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":706.18221875,"end":709.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":710.28284375,"end":711.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":712.42596875,"end":723.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":724.7278437500001,"end":726.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":727.7822187500001,"end":728.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.3472187500001,"end":731.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":732.0009687500001,"end":732.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":732.8784687500001,"end":745.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":744.1340937500001,"end":744.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":746.96909375,"end":750.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":751.1709687500002,"end":757.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.56659375,"end":768.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":768.4509687500001,"end":770.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":770.07096875,"end":771.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.02846875,"end":772.8215937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.245,"end":10.006,"text":"謝謝主席本席想邀請交通部長跟公平會主委好陳部長、李主委"},{"start":18.627,"end":35.352,"text":"謝謝兩位我們繼續來討論外送平台的運費大家都非常期待它這個公司能夠透明化因此到目前為止交通部日前預告修正的汽車運輸業管理規則 汽車運輸業"},{"start":38.393,"end":52.523,"text":"客運運費的運價準則其中最重要的今天大家都非常關心的也就是外送平台的新興行業運價適用規定你們現在是在預告當中作為未來業者在收取運費的依據以及每一筆"},{"start":64.592,"end":75.762,"text":"訂單運費依照每車公里基本運價接運送距離計算其中包含起程費、續程費、得以加計等待費、各個樓層"},{"start":83.409,"end":102.289,"text":"樓層費、還有夜間加急的運費以及春節運費大概你們目前所預告的是如此所以交通部你們也多方的跟業者、跟小保官、跟外送平台工會多方的去研討那麼到目前為止外界有說要以60塊為基準"},{"start":105.271,"end":127.481,"text":"但是你們立即否決你們立即聲明說還沒有還沒有這回事包括外送員工會的期待沒有你們馬上說了你們馬上說了你們否認了說還沒有還沒有定案這個我們就是希望這個理性的去討論那請教現在的方向現在的方向會漲價嗎這第一個那你們費率大概討論會什麼時候出來"},{"start":133.972,"end":151.83,"text":"報告委員當然我們現在正在那個預告期所以我們的法制的過程都還沒完備所以什麼時候可以有這個所以這個預告非常重要就是大家有任何意見趕快再提出來但是坊間已經有給你一個數字那當然你們否決了我能夠跟委員報告的是說方向"},{"start":153.892,"end":164.661,"text":"會不會漲?第一個我們是朝透明化的方向來走先把公式先制定出來這是第一個方向第二個方向不一定會漲價漲價是一個假議題不一定會漲價漲價是一個假議題因為到時候即便是漲價是一個假議題"},{"start":170.645,"end":193.4,"text":"對即便是有一個公示公示出來了之後設定的是叫做上限是上限而且沒有下限當沒有下限的狀況底下到時候的業者要收多少費用是在我們上限以下都可以所以現在的免運費還是可以做他甚至可以直接做到免運費這都是他的優惠他的權利所以你是訂一個這個天花板對天花板只有天花板"},{"start":193.66,"end":222.112,"text":"所以這個也就是說過去我們外送的費用呢它多數是以供需以供需去定價它有尖峰用餐的時間那尖峰用餐它會比較高那離峰的時候有優惠這個價格那再請教我們訂定的費率會取消優惠價格嗎不會我們只會訂上限所以下限即便是免運費運費算零都是可以接受的"},{"start":222.512,"end":233.949,"text":"好 預問算明都是可以接受那麼業者會不會 我們是緊張也就是你如果說這個價格的方面會不會運價轉送到消費者"},{"start":238.067,"end":265.468,"text":"目前的審查的機制我們是五方包含了消費者我們大概是找消機會另外就是外送員工會還有平台業者我們也會找還有就是地方政府因為每個地方要因地制宜那最後才是交通部的代表也會參與我們會最後一起來制定那這個部分當然運費的部分對於一個消費者來說他要買一個東西要運然後要製作製作的費用當然是消費者要吸收"},{"start":265.908,"end":290.562,"text":"那運費也會由消費者來吸收但問題是我們這次訂的是上限不會讓消費者讓他有超過上限的一個運費但往下是沒有問題的所以消費者的權益我們也可以保障當運價沒有透明的時候消費者到底被收了多少運價其實消費者不曉得所以我們希望透過透明的過程當中保障消費者的權益"},{"start":290.762,"end":310.518,"text":"所以如果依照部長你現在的回答是希望能夠達到五贏的這個政策這是理想那所以再請教你們預告之後接下來動作怎麼做什麼時間可以把這個方案正式公告我們現在正在收攏各方的意見你們的時程"},{"start":311.833,"end":322.577,"text":"當大家的意見比較有一個共識的時候大概我們就可以往法制化的方向來推進但是這個時程我沒有辦法在這邊跟委員報告因為各方的意見我們還在收攏現在都還不知道你收攏也會有時間啊我到底時間要訂多久啊怎麼會沒有時間表呢"},{"start":330.16,"end":347.376,"text":"我們希望能夠盡快但是正方的意見目前比如說我們做任何事情你一定有你的KPI指數啊我收容時間一個月、兩個月、三個月接下來我們法制化我預計要多久因為這個已經是社會面向非常需求每天生活必須用到的"},{"start":347.876,"end":367.265,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下這裡面有兩個層面的課題第一個層面就是那個架構跟這個項目就現在在做的法制化的這個工作要完成之後那有這個公司的依據之後後面才會本期了解內容也就是希望要得到我們就誠如剛剛主席所說的我們一定要知道你的時間點啊"},{"start":368.886,"end":389.274,"text":"你要有一個指標我什麼時候要做什麼我什麼時候要做什麼你不能無限期呀因為這是民眾每一天都會都會都會touch到的部長立法院的委員們大家都很關心都希望趕快往前推進那我們的方向也是希望趕快往前推進你的方向你一定要有制定一個時間點嗎我們剛才在講的消費者也有共識來部長"},{"start":394.834,"end":413.442,"text":"請聽清楚大家都在討論因為你現在是預告所以你預告你會有多久時間收集資料資料收集好你要朝向法治化你一定有一個時程表嘛你不能從早上我從早上聽到現在都沒有答案啊 對不對我們不是問你多少錢"},{"start":415.325,"end":423.425,"text":"比例多少 不是 我們只要你行政部門的時間點如果連時間點都沒有 那我們今天整天都白問的"},{"start":425.138,"end":451.783,"text":"請說明是 跟委員報告預告期間就是說各方的意見的話其實我們收容了所以已經訂在下週三10月30號就是把就是說相關的包括這個消基會收容的資料對對對在做整理那因為整理之後就是說當然因為可能就是要達成共識跟委員原來預設的透明化的目標所以就是說比如說在下週三沒有達成這些共識哪些的起義的課題我們會繼續再做一個開會再做一個確認"},{"start":454.165,"end":454.566,"text":"請政府有責任的去規劃"},{"start":470.019,"end":488.658,"text":"10月30我們今天聽到這個聲音預告就是到10月30收集這些資料你們再下一個動作對不對那你請把你們接下來要怎麼做的時程也請一份資料給本席好嗎你們去預估一下所以接下來公平會在後面來請你往前"},{"start":490.32,"end":515.158,"text":"剛剛交通部長說了他們要訂一個系列在這邊那針對於這個兩大我們的這個烏貝伊跟忽編達那麼是不是會同意現在是在審議中那是不是會同意合併我們在經濟委員會也討論過了很多次所以本席要請教這一段時間努力來你們現在的進度"},{"start":517.259,"end":535.477,"text":"到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾會不會合因為民眾所怕的也就是萬一如果怪獸產生的時候那只有一家只有一家他定的價格那沒有人有辦法去控管的時候那民眾會"},{"start":537.039,"end":537.199,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":554.837,"end":557.119,"text":"從這個案子每一方都非常的關心消費者非常的害怕"},{"start":582.041,"end":582.465,"text":"如果被這個壟斷"},{"start":585.188,"end":611.61,"text":"外送平台人員的一個基本權益這是我們一定要捍衛的一定要捍衛的因為他們太辛苦了但是在這樣的一個情況之下你到底11月8號是你收集請他們補件那你預計會在什麼時候告訴社會大眾到底同意不同意跟委員說明我們是委員會制的所以文件期備會進入委員會去討論"},{"start":613.872,"end":634.969,"text":"當然不要跟我講過程你一個社會重大關注的議題你總是不能無限期吧主委 如果以我的認知你是明年1月份任期到吧主委 我的任期到1月底對啊 那明年的1月底嘛那你會不會在你的任期內去完成"},{"start":636.857,"end":666.177,"text":"告訴社會大眾到底同意不同意當然是合一致啊但是你要集中啊你也不能無限期啊一個是委員會討論的情形這麼重大的一件事情一定要經過委員會充分的討論做出事切的決定當然當然當然我們沒有辦法去干涉這個內容但是我們要講社會的需求給主委你了解我想我們委員也都了解社會對這個案件的關切那我想責務龐代法那既然委員都了解社會的關切那更能夠有積極的腳步啊"},{"start":667.178,"end":671.849,"text":"那我期盼能夠在你的任內去告訴社會大眾你們的經過委員會的決議是什麼"},{"start":678.228,"end":700.745,"text":"朝這個方向努力好嗎這個案件我們一定會審慎能快就快這是我們向來對於人民的申報結合案因為我們深怕店家、消費者以及外送員他只能夠被動的面對獨佔者所提出的條件那就是陳如本席所說的是武術"},{"start":702.026,"end":723.713,"text":"台灣社會不應當有這樣的現象所以我再次強調因為我覺得我們政府做事情總是要有一個時間點那也不能無限期所以請你們積極我希望在你的任內去完成告訴社會大眾到底這個答案是什麼讓大家安心好不好因為我們現在消費者也很緊張店家也很緊張平台也緊張啊所以 主委"},{"start":732.045,"end":747.656,"text":"你的看法呢我想這個案子確實從兩家事業向公平會遞件申報以來各界都非常關切我們對這一些其實都了解那在這個程序上文件齊備了該當怎麼處理一定會"},{"start":751.303,"end":751.323,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1116,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（14時15分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請交通部長跟公平會主委。"],["主席：陳部長、李主委。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝兩位。我們繼續來討論外送平臺的運費，大家都非常期待這個公司能夠透明化，到目前為止，關於交通部日前預告修正的「汽車運輸業管理規則」、「汽車運輸業客貨運運價準則」，其中最重要的、今天大家都非常關心的，也就是外送平臺的新興行業運價適用規定，你們現在是在預告當中，作為未來業者在收取運費的依據，而每一筆訂單的運費應依每車公里基本運價按運送距離計算，其中包含了起程費、續程費，並得以加計等待費、樓層費、夜間加成運費以及春節運費，你們目前預告的大概是如此。交通部也跟業者、消保官、外送平臺工會等多方研討，到目前為止，外界有說要以60塊為基準，但是你們立即否決，你們立即聲明說還沒有、沒有這回事……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那是外送員工會的期待、那是他們的講法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你們馬上說了、你們否認說這還沒有定案。"],["陳部長世凱：是，還沒有定案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這部分我們希望理性的討論，請教現在的方向會漲價嗎？這是第一個；關於費率，你們大概會什麼時候討論出來？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們現在正在預告期，我們的法制過程都還沒完備，所以什麼時候可以訂價出來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個預告非常重要啊，就是大家有任何意見趕快再提出來，但是坊間已經給你一個數字，當然你們否決了！"],["陳部長世凱：我能夠跟委員報告的是方向。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會漲？"],["陳部長世凱：我們早上有提過，第一個，我們是朝透明化的方向來走，先把公式先制定出來，這是第一個方向；第二個方向，不一定會漲價，漲價是一個假議題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不一定會漲價！"],["陳部長世凱：漲價是一個假議題，到時候即便是我們的公式……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：漲價是一個假議題。"],["陳部長世凱：對，即便有一個公式出來之後，設定的是上限，而且沒有下限，當沒有下限的狀況下，到時候業者要收多少費用是在我們的上限以下都可以，所以現在的免運費還是可以做，它甚至可以直接做到免運費，這都是它的優惠、它的權力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你是訂一個天花板？"],["陳部長世凱：上限，對，天花板、只有天花板。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以也就是說，過去我們的外送費用多數是以供需去定價，有尖峰用餐的時間，尖峰用餐會比較高；離峰的時候有優惠價格。那再請教，我們訂定的費率會取消優惠價格嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不會，我們只會訂上限，所以下限即便是免運費、運費算零都是可以接受的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，運費算零都是可以接受，那麼業者會不會……我們覺得緊張，也就是這個價格會不會轉嫁至運費、轉嫁到消費者？"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前的審查機制是五方，包含了消費者，我們大概是找消基會，另外就是外送員工會，還有平臺業者我們也會找，還有就是地方政府，因為每個地方要因地制宜，最後才是交通部的代表也會參與，我們最後會一起來制定。","當然運費的部分對於一個消費者來說，他要買一個東西要運、要製作，製作的費用當然是消費者要吸收，那運費也會由消費者來吸收。但問題是我們這次訂的是上限，不會讓消費者有超過上限的運費，但往下是沒有問題的，所以消費者的權益我們也可以保障，當運價沒有透明的時候，消費者到底被收了多少運價其實消費者不曉得，所以我們希望透過透明的過程來保障消費者的權益。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以如果依照部長你現在的回答，是希望能夠達到五贏的政策，這是理想！"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望能夠共贏。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以再請教，在你們預告之後，接下來動作怎麼做？什麼時間可以把這個方案正式公告？你們的時程？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在正在收攏各方的意見，當大家的意見比較有共識的時候，大概我們就可以往法制化的方向來推進，但是這個時程我沒有辦法在這邊跟委員報告，因為各方的意見我們還在收攏。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以現在都還不知道？"],["陳部長世凱：我們還在收攏……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你收攏也會有時間啊，到底時間要訂多久？怎麼會沒有時間表呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望能夠儘快，但是地方的意見目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所謂的儘快，比如說做任何事情，你一定有你的KPI指數，你的收攏時間要1個月、2個月、3個月？接下來法制化預計要多久，因為這個已經是社會面向非常需求的，是每天生活必須用到的。"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，這裡面有兩個層面的課題，第一個層面就是那個架構跟這個項目，就是現在在做的法制化工作完成之後，有共識的依據之後，後面才會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席了解內容，就誠如剛剛主席所說的，我們一定要知道你的時間點，你要有一個指標，什麼時候要做什麼、什麼時候做什麼，你不能無限期啊！因為這是民眾每一天都會touch到的，部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，立法院的委員們大家都很關心，都希望趕快往前推進，我們的方向也是希望趕快往前推進……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的方向，你應該要制訂一個時間點嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：如果立法院的大家都有共識，我們剛才講的消費者也有共識，然後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長請聽清楚，大家都在討論，因為你現在是預告，所以你預告會有多久時間來蒐集資料，資料蒐集好後你要朝向法制化，你一定有一個時程表嘛？我從早上聽到現在都沒有答案，對不對？我們不是問你多少錢、比例多少，不是！我們只要你行政部門的時間點。"],["陳局長文瑞：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果連時間點都沒有，那我們今天整天都白問了，請說明。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，預告期間就是各方意見的話，其實我們收攏了，所以已經訂在下週三10月30號，把相關的包括消基會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：收攏的資料。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，在做整理，因為整理之後要達成共識跟委員原來預設的透明化的目標，比如說在下週三沒有達成這些共識，有哪些歧異的課題，我們會繼續再開會，再做一個確認。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為時間的關係，請你把你們預計針對這個社會面向非常關心的議題，而且是民眾每一天都會運用到的，請政府有責任的去規劃。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說10月30，我們今天聽到這個聲音，預告就是到10月30，蒐集這些資料後你們再下一個動作，對不對？請你把你們接下來要怎麼做的時程，也請一份資料給本席好嗎？你們去預估一下。","公平會站在後面，請你往前。剛剛交通部長說了，他要訂一個ceiling在這邊，針對Uber Eats跟foodpanda是不是會同意合併，現在是在審議中，是不是會同意合併，我們在經濟委員會也討論過了很多次。所以本席要請教，經過這一段時間的努力，關於你們現在的進度，到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾會不會合併？因為民眾所怕的，也就是萬一如果怪獸產生的時候，那只有一家，只有一家它訂的價格，沒有人有辦法去控管的時候，民眾會達到五輸的階段，所以要請教你們目前什麼時候可以告訴社會大眾？"],["李主任委員鎂：我跟委員說明一下，目前是在補件的階段，如果補件……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教它補件的deadline是在什麼時候？"],["李主任委員鎂：關於補件，目前業者……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你給業者的deadline是什麼時候？"],["李主任委員鎂：11月8號。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是下個月11月8號，請他們補件。"],["李主任委員鎂：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那接下來呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們看它補件的情形如何，如果文件齊備，我們就開始算審查的期間，如果文件不齊備，會再進一步的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，每一方都非常的關心這個案子，消費者非常的害怕，如果被壟斷，外送平臺人員的基本權益是我們一定要捍衛的，因為他們太辛苦了，但是在這樣的情況之下，11月8號是你蒐集請他們補件，那你預計會在什麼時候告訴社會大眾到底同意不同意？"],["李主任委員鎂：跟委員說明，我們是委員會制的，所以文件齊備之後會進入委員會去討論……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，不要跟我講過程……"],["李主任委員鎂：我沒有辦法預估委員會……其他的問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是一個社會重大關注的議題，你總是不能無限期吧！主委，如果以我的認知，你是明年1月份任期到吧，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的任期到1月底。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！到明年的1月底，那你會不會在你的任期內去完成，告訴社會大眾到底同意不同意？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為這是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是合議制，但是你要最終啊！你也不能無限期啊！"],["李主任委員鎂：一個是補件的情形、一個是委員會討論的情形，這麼重大的一件事情，一定要經過委員會充分的討論做出適切的決定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然、當然！我們沒有辦法去干涉這個內容，但是我們要講社會的需求給主委了解。"],["李主任委員鎂：我想我們委員也都了解社會對這個案件的關切，我想責無旁貸把這個案子做好……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然委員都了解社會的關切，那更應該有積極的腳步啊！我期盼能夠在你的任內去告訴社會大眾你們經過委員會的決議是什麼，朝這個方向努力，好嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個案件我們一定會審慎，能快就快，這是我們向來對於人民的申報結合案件……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們深怕店家、消費者以及外送員只能夠被動的面對獨占者所提出的條件，就是誠如本席所說的，是五輸，臺灣社會不應當有這樣的現象，所以我再一次強調，因為我覺得我們政府做事情總是要有一個時間點，也不能無限期，所以請你們積極，我希望在你的任內去完成並告訴社會大眾到底這個答案是什麼，讓大家安心，好不好？因為現在消費者也很緊張，店家也很緊張，平臺也緊張啊！所以主委的看法呢？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想這個案子確實從兩家事業向公平會遞件申報以來，各界都非常關切，我們對這些其實都了解，這個程序上文件齊備了，該當怎麼處理，一定會審慎的去處理，在時程上，因為我們是委員會制度，不是首長制，我沒有辦法預見將來委員會討論的情形會是什麼情況。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：情形我們不用，我們也不予干預，我請你積極開會處理，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：這一部分我們會積極處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，趕快加油！"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。李主委，你這樣我開會開不完，你知道嗎？你就講你會回去盡力達成就好了，你平常是在經濟委員會嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經濟委員會，我們問過了無數次……"],["主席：還沒聊完的，你們回去經濟委員會再好好聊一下。","接下來有請邱志偉委員，邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","接下來有請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156184","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685becd5f3c6171618586b4c0e929d5f577f1d1511f832394642f356dd5f590e44185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"14:17:25 - 14:22:20","影片長度":"00:04:55","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:17:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:22:20+08:00","duration":295,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.14471875,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.30034375,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":4.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.5572187500000005,"end":7.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.282843750000001,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.869093750000001,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.442843750000002,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.45534375,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.125968750000002,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.31159375,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.290343750000002,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.00721875,"end":17.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.563468750000002,"end":22.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.41784375,"end":56.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.89784375,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.50346875,"end":82.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.97346875000001,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.02409375,"end":71.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.66534375,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.11096875000001,"end":89.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.32596875,"end":86.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.46846875,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.07909375000001,"end":112.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.91409375,"end":100.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.60971875000001,"end":104.04846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.60096875,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.37284375,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.77284375,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.26221875,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.70096875,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.24096875000001,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.27471875,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.39284375000001,"end":115.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.27034375000001,"end":134.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.02471875,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.02846875,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.06909375,"end":134.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.35596875000002,"end":135.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.17409375,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.23721875,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.92909375000002,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.96284375000002,"end":144.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.99659375000002,"end":139.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.38784375,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.97409375,"end":154.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.99409375000002,"end":158.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.49971875,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.20846875,"end":170.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.88284375,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.29971875,"end":235.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.73846875,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.62721875,"end":180.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.77409375000002,"end":186.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.59159375000002,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.96284375000002,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.03034375000001,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.72596875000002,"end":196.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.91159375,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.87971875000002,"end":212.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.94346875000002,"end":256.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.76284375,"end":263.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.27659375,"end":265.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.93034375,"end":283.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.27596875,"end":268.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.39596875,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.08784375,"end":284.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.84221875000003,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.95596875,"end":291.79971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.175,"end":6.883,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們勞動部部長也請我們衛福部理事長請準備"},{"start":9.929,"end":34.619,"text":"好 部長 何部長想跟您請問一下最近最新的一個新聞有關於這個交通運駕有這樣子的草案說明會最後消機會呢因為有喊卡那所以最後變成這個外送工會不斷的在這個網路媒體在喊話那對於這個交通運駕突如其來的喊卡作為一個勞動部部長幫外送員表態一下您怎麼說"},{"start":35.592,"end":57.979,"text":"我完全支持這個運費通名化方案因為這是我們跟交通部一起合作的方案它其實有個好處就是說它同時可以兼顧這一個工作他們勞動上面的彈性然後又可以兼顧他的權益所以這是一個很好的方式我想我們為什麼要去研究這個東西我們的初衷是什麼"},{"start":58.319,"end":81.836,"text":"我們的初衷是希望揭開這個平台的幕後在訂定整個外送員在收費的過程他所收到的每一筆運送過程最後的薪資是應該公開透明的所謂的公開透明是希望讓他們了解他們到底是做了這一單收到的錢是不是合理的我們的初衷不是為了要讓消費者增加任何的費用"},{"start":82.096,"end":82.116,"text":"律師長﹖"},{"start":111.818,"end":134.994,"text":"市長好市長好久不見市長昨天因為時間的關係我本來想問部長但是這個菸娟的問題今天我想拋出一些想法請市長帶回去給部長研議一下昨天我想談的是健康台灣的政策的裁員問題因為衛福部明年要撥50億元給癌症新藥基金這個政策大家不分朝野都一定全力支持但是你覺得50億夠嗎"},{"start":138.34,"end":143.843,"text":"你覺得?沒關係你個人覺得可以再增加嗎?我們都會來極力爭取在財源分配的方面除了公務預算的撥款你是否認為還有其他的財源可以補充?我們要確保這個基金能夠穩定而且能夠持續性"},{"start":159.551,"end":166.195,"text":"我提供一個資料啦大家探討一下根據臺灣癌症基金會對這一次這一屆的立委我們有針對癌症新藥基金的裁員看法調查結果前三名分別新藥新醫療科技研發的相關基金有75%"},{"start":186.067,"end":211.617,"text":"那逐年編列購物預算支持70% 煙捐跟新興煙品捐有69%而要國家編列特別預算最低佔29%所以那就表示說從既有財源撥補到癌症型藥基金幾乎是委員們認為最有效最可行的共識所以台灣老年化逐漸的成長不是高齡化社會是超高齡化社會的可能性是越來越高"},{"start":212.517,"end":227.361,"text":"長期的照顧跟慢性疾病的一個防治我們一定會進一步擴大有這個需求澳洲11年連續調漲煙稅吸煙率也成功的下降到一成以下之前國建署有說過臺灣的煙捐和煙稅佔煙價的54%然而世界衛生組織建議煙捐煙稅應該佔煙價的75%"},{"start":236.064,"end":254.615,"text":"所以我們再看看再根據我們陰害防治法第4條每兩年就要邀集學者專家來檢討煙捐的相關政策也因此我們是不是能夠考慮按部就班適度的調整這個煙捐、煙稅來做一個調整所以就既有的規定喔次長知不知道今年大約何時會召開煙捐審議的委員會"},{"start":258.51,"end":283.139,"text":"報告委員因為這個是應該是國建署那邊 國建署不是我督導但是我沒有記錯應該是年底好沒關係因為今年就要召開我想我們是不是應該納入剛剛我所提到的這些不管是調查結果還有世界潮流他們所做的一個建議我們一起來把這個癌症信號基金能夠普遍的來穩定持續的成長讓大家國人能夠更加安定"},{"start":283.519,"end":288.471,"text":"是的,我非常佩服委員的這件事。我想只要對民眾有利,我們都會來積極研議。感謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1359,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（14時17分）好，謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長，也請衛福部呂次長，請準備。"],["主席：請部長、呂次長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：何部長，想跟你請問一下最近最新的一個新聞，有關於交通運價，有這樣子的草案說明會，因為消基會喊卡，所以最後變成外送工會不斷的在網路媒體喊話，對於交通運價突如其來的喊卡，作為勞動部部長幫外送員表態一下，您怎麼說？"],["何部長佩珊：我完全支持這個運費透明化方案，因為這是我們跟交通部一起合作的方案，它其實有個好處，就是同時可以兼顧他們勞動上面的彈性，然後又可以兼顧他們的權益，所以這是一個很好的方式。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們為什麼要去研究這個東西，我們的初衷是什麼？我們的初衷是希望揭開這個平臺幕後在訂定整個外送員收費的過程，他所收到的每一筆運送過程最後的薪資，是應該公開透明的……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所謂的公開透明是希望讓他們了解，他們做了這一單收到的錢到底是不是合理的，我們的初衷不是為了要讓消費者增加任何的費用，對吧？"],["何部長佩珊：沒錯，這個其實是兩件事。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以勞動部是不是也幫助我們的外送員一起來喊話一下？"],["何部長佩珊：對，那是兩件事，消費者這一頭的費用不應該因為這個而影響。"],["羅委員廷瑋：透明化也有助於消費者釐清他的消費過程到底有哪些是幕後我們不知道的，也可以節省到錢，甚至也可以知道原來平臺賺了這麼多，我們一起加油，好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。再來，呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長好。次長，好久不見，昨天因為時間的關係，我本來想問部長，但是這個菸捐的問題，今天我想拋出一些想法，請次長帶回去給部長研議一下。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：昨天我想談的是健康臺灣政策的財源問題，因為衛福部明年要撥50億元給癌症新藥基金，這個政策大家不分朝野都一定全力支持，但是你覺得50億夠嗎？"],["呂次長建德：嗯……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你覺得，沒關係。"],["呂次長建德：我想我們都可以來……只要對民眾有利的，我們都會來極力爭取。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你個人覺得可以再增加嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我們都會來極力爭取。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，在財源分配的方面，除了公務預算的撥款，你是否認為還有其他的財源可以補充？我們要確保這個基金能夠穩定，而且能夠持續性嘛！有沒有什麼……"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我想我們這一部分也都會……事實上我們都有跟財政部密切聯繫，各種相關的可能性我們都會來審慎評估。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我提供一個資料，大家探討一下，根據臺灣癌症基金會對於這一屆的立委，我們有針對癌症新藥基金的財源看法，調查結果前3名分別：新藥、新醫療科技研發的相關基金有75%；逐年編列公務預算支持71%；菸捐跟新興菸品捐有69%，而要國家編列特別預算最低占29%，就表示說從既有財源撥補到癌症新藥基金，幾乎是委員們認為最有效、最可行的共識。所以臺灣老年化逐漸成長，不是高齡化社會，是超高齡化社會的可能性是越來越高，長期的照護跟慢性疾病的防治，我們一定會進一步擴大這個需求。","澳洲11年連續調漲菸稅，吸菸率也成功的下降到一成以下，之前國健署有說過，臺灣的菸捐和菸稅占菸價的54%，然而世界衛生組織建議菸捐、菸稅應該占菸價的75%。所以我們再看看，根據菸害防治法第四條，每兩年就要邀集學者專家來檢討菸捐的相關政策，也因此我們是不是能夠考慮按部就班，適度的針對菸捐、菸稅來做一個調整？所以就既有的規定，次長知不知道今年大約何時會召開菸捐審議委員會？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個應該是國健署那邊，國健署不是我督導，但是我沒有記錯的話，應該是年底。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，沒關係，因為今年就要召開，我想我們是不是應該納入剛剛我所提到的這些，不管是調查結果還有世界潮流他們所做的建議，我們一起來把癌症新藥基金能夠普遍、穩定持續成長，讓大家國人能夠更加安定，請你帶回去討論。"],["呂次長建德：是的，我非常佩服委員提的這些，我想只要對民眾有利，我們都會來積極研議。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝，我們一起加油。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝部長。","賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","接續我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156183","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156183","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b607c7abda5b9266f6b4c0e929d5f577f1d1511f8323946427cccb990385a62e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"14:08:16 - 14:17:17","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:08:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:17:17+08:00","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.485343750000002,"end":8.907218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.56909375,"end":22.829093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.60534375,"end":25.140968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.02971875,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.43034375,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.31159375,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.315343750000004,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.02284375,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.73096875,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.68409375,"end":60.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.15221875,"end":65.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.75909375,"end":73.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.63096875000001,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.70221875,"end":79.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.93409375,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.09846875000001,"end":83.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.46096875,"end":88.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.01284375,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.77096875000001,"end":100.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.21346875,"end":105.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.71909375000001,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.89096875000001,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.26971875000001,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.82659375,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.42971875,"end":122.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.18909375000001,"end":122.59409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.66159375000001,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.09159375,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.32284375,"end":132.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.51659375,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.87096875,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.04784375,"end":135.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.10534375,"end":145.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.10534375,"end":145.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.51034375,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.02909375000002,"end":147.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.21471875,"end":148.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.93596875,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.96409375000002,"end":183.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.24034375000002,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.34159375000002,"end":172.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.66221875000002,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.81659375,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.63221875000002,"end":204.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.55159375000002,"end":208.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.92659375000002,"end":211.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.62659375,"end":214.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.17034375,"end":215.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.99721875,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.54096875000002,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.78534375,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.62034375000002,"end":224.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.31221875000003,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.69159375,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.30284375000002,"end":239.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.24659375000002,"end":242.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.69346875000002,"end":250.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.81034375000002,"end":256.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.66596875,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.47096875,"end":287.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.63159375000004,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.97221875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.46971875,"end":299.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.59159375,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.74284375,"end":308.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.49721875,"end":311.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.77971875000003,"end":313.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.99471875,"end":313.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.01159375000003,"end":313.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.48409375,"end":313.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.97346875,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.03659375,"end":327.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.99659375000005,"end":331.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.32971875000004,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.98784375,"end":340.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.65721875,"end":341.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.00721875000005,"end":346.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.48346875000004,"end":344.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.27221875000004,"end":363.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.37284375,"end":351.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.23721875,"end":354.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.99221875,"end":359.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.72971875,"end":365.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.79659375,"end":375.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.51284375,"end":380.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.24221875,"end":376.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.18659375000004,"end":385.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.57409375000003,"end":388.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.44284375,"end":390.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.50159375000004,"end":392.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.99909375000004,"end":403.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.79159375,"end":398.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.68096875000003,"end":404.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.71471875000003,"end":405.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.55409375000005,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.34721875,"end":411.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.45596875,"end":422.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.88471875000005,"end":428.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.92596875000004,"end":429.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.83721875000003,"end":430.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.17034375000003,"end":432.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.06034375,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.06409375000004,"end":475.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.22284375000004,"end":446.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.00721875000005,"end":449.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.47909375,"end":453.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.08471875000004,"end":466.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.84284375000004,"end":475.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.99034375,"end":496.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.32096875,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.16846875000005,"end":507.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.19784375,"end":498.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.06971875000005,"end":520.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.9834687499999,"end":520.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.5403437500001,"end":529.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.9153437500001,"end":524.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":529.3828437500001,"end":529.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":529.5178437500001,"end":529.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":531.42471875,"end":534.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.59346875,"end":531.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.4834687499999,"end":535.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.1028437500001,"end":540.58784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.383,"end":21.509,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是有請我們勞動部部長以及我們這一個我看今天有我們經濟部經濟部我們次長"},{"start":35.329,"end":57.814,"text":"部長,這個針對我們今天在討論壯世代,這個壯世代的定義,因為我有一台電視,我想說他這個定義不明,因為他的壯世代沒有我,我不是壯世代,部長你覺得我是不壯嗎?"},{"start":61.189,"end":72.923,"text":" 我覺得這樣定義起來怪怪啦 因為要壯世代 我感覺你也要加一條這個體重80公斤以上 應該都要納入壯世代"},{"start":75.555,"end":98.394,"text":"你怎麼不贏 呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵呵哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":101.263,"end":126.129,"text":"可以處理這麼多議題啊因為我看起來這個比較像他這個和經濟比較有關係吧市長你看看這個整部條文的本身你來看這裡面只有那個第4條是跟那個產業發展有關跟產業發展有關只有一條因為他這看起來是一個這應該是稍微反映類似這個"},{"start":130.353,"end":144.167,"text":"他條文又有應用法作用法又有又看起來像基本法的概念如果他是叫做壯世代基本法大概就只是比較一些原則的東西嘛但是他內容又有一些作用法的精神"},{"start":145.729,"end":171.729,"text":"這真有趣所以我認為剛剛在講那個特別法普通法我也覺得蠻有趣的這個中央法規標準法第16條就有規定特別法優於普通法至於這個剛剛我們國民黨委員在講到底傳播法跟勞基法誰是特別法這個我想這個就讓您去做解釋但是特別法優於普通法這是基本的法理原則"},{"start":172.469,"end":201.969,"text":"同樣的在今天我們在討論這個條文的時候壯世代的這個看起來就是這個條文涉及的機關很大當然我可以想像說我們提案的委員他覺得說要替這個55歲以上的人讓他發揮他的更大的作用而且他是不是也有一點覺得說以前很多法律都把它定義叫做老年人口"},{"start":202.909,"end":223.837,"text":"啊這會不會有歧視的問題啊我是覺得說這要怎麼說呢有時候要講歧視也可以講啊要講不是歧視啊老就是老啊老無老以及人之老啊就老啊人家說我胖我也是要接受啊啊就真的胖啊"},{"start":225.49,"end":238.035,"text":"所以這在名詞定義上我也覺得說這個很有不過是一個新的概念啦我們知道事實上很多人都在講到說人進入了一個"},{"start":241.254,"end":255.116,"text":"借您退休可是又還沒有退休或者是真的退休後他要有新的一個人生的規劃看起來這個是比較符合這個壯世代的基本的一個想法我是覺得馬希"},{"start":256.738,"end":282.151,"text":"大家都可以討論可是討論之前要先確定好我們主管的委員會那以今天我們是在衛環委員會我感覺起來衛環來聯審經濟這個感覺上跟他整部條文起來我覺得是有點導致了應該是要以經濟來做主審的主審或者是其他委員會我覺得這個第一個要判斷一下那第二個我想要跟"},{"start":283.211,"end":307.783,"text":"就叫我們部長以及次長就是說我們現在未來如果引進了包括橋外生包括我們如果移工那我們也知道現在移工是不能在工廠裡面不能住在工廠裡面不能住在工廠那未來如果有這些橋外生以及這些移工他住宿的需求你們的規劃是怎樣"},{"start":312.007,"end":327.918,"text":"我請我署長來回答一下好不好那是有辦法回答的回答現在移工僱主的一個法定責任就是要安排他的生活照顧管理這裡面像移工的話就是他要安排住宿那這個住宿一般就要經過地方的公安消防等等檢查要合格"},{"start":328.058,"end":345.948,"text":"蔡易餘是由部主來的,那喬艾森呢?那喬艾森基本上因為大部分因為他在臺灣就學,大部分都有自己的租屋或是學校安排所以這部分大概基本上是不會完全...那就學結束後呢?對,就看喬艾森有時候他自行駐居那這部分就沒有什麼樣的一個..."},{"start":346.288,"end":365.742,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":365.925,"end":392.056,"text":"有些其實他大部分還是自行安排,雇主沒有一定要安排這樣的一個住宿所以雇主就沒有他的義務了,所以說由喬外森自己來安排所以可能未來這個住的問題就會變成,喬外森每天要去發財所以就會延伸到了說喬外森現在如果他們畢業之後,那就是不能打工嘛"},{"start":393.232,"end":409.48,"text":"那我早上我聽那個國發會主委說這部分可能會修正讓他們畢業後可以繼續打工然後兩年後到他們求職期間讓他穩定一個他薪資的來源所以你們未來的方向都是這樣嗎好那第二個我再請教一下就是說我們現在這個中高齡的這個就業狀況"},{"start":413.046,"end":434.692,"text":"目前我們臺灣的比例上仍然是比其他國家以日本來說我們臺灣的65歲以上的就業狀況跟日本比起來我們發現都是比較低表示說我們中高齡的就業還有待加強那這部分你們的方向呢針對中高齡的就業"},{"start":436.272,"end":452.222,"text":"當然我們都正在這個加緊努力因為其實中高齡就業法通過以來我們已經增加38萬的中高齡勞動力了我們希望每年增加10萬以上然後盡快往從中高齡部分其實是67%啦"},{"start":455.763,"end":482.148,"text":"對阿這個是高齡是9%高齡是65歲以上啦那不過委員其實日韓的高齡者為什麼這麼多那麼那麼的饒餐率這麼對啊為什麼跟他們的這一個下流老人狀況有關係因為他們早年年金改革砍太多所以他們現在普遍那個年金太低啦所以他沒有辦法生活"},{"start":482.868,"end":483.829,"text":"臺灣好的是說真的我們的應有潮世代"},{"start":508.383,"end":508.863,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":540.193,"end":540.396,"text":"蔡易餘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1312,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（14時8分）好，謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長以及經濟部次長。"],["主席：好，經濟部次長。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，針對我們今天在討論的壯世代，這個壯世代的定義，因為我那天有連署，我想它這個定義不明，因為它的壯世代沒有我啊！我不是壯世代，部長，你覺得是我不壯嗎？我覺得這樣定義起來怪怪的，因為如果要講壯世代，我感覺你也要加一條，體重80公斤以上應該也都要納入壯世代，你怎麼不回答？所以我今天要來這裡就是說，這個壯世代我覺得真的有一點奇怪，因為我們在講這個壯世代，你說就業也好，還是要怎麼樣讓壯世代可以發揮他們的強項，這麼多議題看起來就不是在衛環委員會可以處理的，因為就我看起來這個和經濟比較有關係吧？次長，你以他們這整部條文來看。"],["連次長錦漳：這裡面只有一條，第四條是跟產業發展有關。"],["蔡委員易餘：跟產業發展有關，只有一條？"],["連次長錦漳：對，只有一條，它每一個部會的……"],["蔡委員易餘：因為它看起來是一個……這應該是什麼法？類似這個……它條文又有應用法。"],["何部長佩珊：作用法。"],["蔡委員易餘：作用法，又看起來像基本法。"],["何部長佩珊：基本法。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果它是叫做壯世代基本法，大概就只是一些比較原則的東西，可是它內容又有一些作用法的精神，這很有趣啦。所以我在想剛剛在講的那個特別法、普通法，我也覺得滿有趣的啦，中央法規標準法第十六條就有規定特別法優於普通法。至於剛剛我們國民黨的委員在講，到底船舶法跟勞基法誰是特別法，我想這個就讓你們去解釋。但是特別法優於普通法，這是基本的法理原則。同樣地，今天我們在討論這一個條文的時候，壯世代的條文看起來涉及的機關很多。當然我可以想像，提案委員覺得要讓55歲以上的人發揮更大的作用，而且他是不是也有一點覺得，以前很多法律都定義為老年、老年人口，這樣會不會有歧視的問題？我是覺得，有時候要說歧視，也可以說有，要說不是歧視，老就是老啊，對不對？老吾老，以及人之老，人家說我胖，我也是要接受啊，就真的胖啊，所以這在名詞定義上，我也覺得這個很有……不過這是一個新的概念啦，我們知道事實上很多人都在講說，人進入了一個屆齡退休的階段，可是又還沒有退休，或者是真的退休後，他要有一個新的人生規畫，看起來這個是比較符合壯世代的一個基本想法，我是覺得大家也都可以討論啦，可是在討論之前，要先確定好主管的委員會。以今天我們在衛環委員會來看，我感覺由衛環來聯審經濟，這跟它整部條文看起來，我覺得是有點倒置了，應該是要以經濟來做聯審的主審，或者是其他委員會，我覺得這是第一個要判斷一下的。","第二個，我想要就教部長以及次長，我們未來如果引進包括僑外生、移工，我們也知道現在移工是不能住在工廠裡面的，未來如果這些僑外生以及這些移工有住宿的需求，你們的規畫是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長來回答一下好不好？"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，有辦法回答的人回答。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，現在移工雇主的一個法定責任就是要安排他的生活照護管理，像移工的話，就是要安排住宿，這個住宿一般要經過地方的公安、消防等等檢查合格。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是說移工是由雇主來……"],["蔡署長孟良：雇主要負責。"],["蔡委員易餘：僑外生呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：僑外生基本上因為他在臺灣就學，大部分都有自己的租屋或是由學校安排，所以這部分基本上是不會完全……"],["蔡委員易餘：那就學結束後呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：就學結束後就看僑外生，有時候他自行住居，這部分就沒有什麼問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，如果僑外生找到了他的工作，僑外生畢業後兩年的時間，就是他的求職期間嘛。"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：求職期間可能他自己要去找。"],["蔡署長孟良：是，自行住居。"],["蔡委員易餘：他自己要找住的地方，如果他找到工作後呢？一樣是由雇主來安排？"],["蔡署長孟良：找到工作後，基本上，其實大部分還是自行安排，雇主沒有一定要安排這樣的一個住所。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以雇主沒有這樣的義務？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以由僑外生自己來？"],["蔡署長孟良：是，自行安排。"],["蔡委員易餘：自己來安排，所以可能未來住的問題就會變成僑外生自己要去發落，那就會延伸到，現在僑外生畢業之後是不能打工嘛，我早上聽國發會主委說這部分可能會修正，讓他們畢業後可以繼續打工，讓他在兩年的求職期間有一個穩定的薪資來源，所以你們未來方向都是這樣嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，第二個，我再請教一下現在中高齡的就業狀況，目前臺灣的比例上仍然是比其他國家，以日本來說，臺灣65歲以上的就業狀況跟日本比起來，我們百分比是比較低，表示我們中高齡的就業還有待加強，這部分你們的方向呢？針對中高齡的就業。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，委員，我們都正在加緊努力。因為其實中高齡就業法通過以來，我們已經增加38萬的中高齡勞動力，我們希望每年增加10萬以上，然後儘快……中高齡的部分其實是67%，我們希望把它推到70%；這個是高齡，是9%，高齡是65歲以上。不過委員，其實日、韓的高齡者為什麼勞參率這麼高……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：跟他們的下流老人狀況有關係，因為他們早年年金改革砍太多，所以現在普遍年金太低，所以沒有辦法生活，只好被迫，那是被迫就業、被迫要去找工作，他們是有這個狀況，滿嚴重的，所以你去日本、韓國，你會看到很多街上或是到處都是紮營的老人……"],["蔡委員易餘：也許是這個狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這個應該可以再注意一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是，所以這個是被迫就業啦！也不能不考慮這種因素，這個也不是好的。臺灣好的是……說真的，我們的嬰兒潮世代也是臺灣當今最有財富能力的一群人，其實基本上有累積一定程度的財富，然後我們老人的財務狀況相對日、韓老人是好的。"],["蔡委員易餘：臺灣55歲以上都是財力最好的，所以才會有像我們這一輩叫做啃老族，我們都努力不要當啃老族。"],["何部長佩珊：委員是菁英啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有、沒有，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員，謝謝部長、次長。接續我們請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156182","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156182","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bcc88f69141240691982770301154c67d1d1511f83239464219376995a466ca645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"14:16:31 - 14:21:44","影片長度":"00:05:13","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:16:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:21:44+08:00","duration":313,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.99284375,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.148468750000001,"end":4.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.430343750000002,"end":13.125968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.864718750000002,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.30721875,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.57284375,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.33596875,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.46659375,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.33971875,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.28471875,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.406593750000003,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.60471875,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.27534375,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.215968750000002,"end":31.519718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.14409375,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.877843750000004,"end":35.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.29534375,"end":40.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.610968750000005,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.84284375,"end":43.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.41221875,"end":46.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.28096875,"end":50.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.26346875,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.59471875,"end":70.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.66971875,"end":71.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.81721875000001,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.85909375,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.56346875,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.57096875,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.70534375000001,"end":91.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.25284375000001,"end":94.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.75034375,"end":97.09596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.38284375,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.76221875,"end":102.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.44096875000001,"end":105.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.20846875000001,"end":111.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.99659375,"end":121.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.54784375000001,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.82159375,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.85534375,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.31096875,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.34471875000001,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.87846875,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.89909375000002,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.98284375,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.04971875,"end":150.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.98971875,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.87909375,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.75596875000002,"end":175.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.08784375000002,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.83846875,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.23034375,"end":184.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.52534375000002,"end":184.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.23409375,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.65909375,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.65471875,"end":226.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.62846875000002,"end":241.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.22096875000003,"end":243.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.57096875000002,"end":245.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.88284375,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.57784375000003,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.98284375000003,"end":253.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.99971875000003,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.03346875000003,"end":261.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.86409375,"end":258.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.41659375,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.76659375,"end":261.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.61034375,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.04909375,"end":268.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.07784375,"end":270.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.32221875,"end":279.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.39659375,"end":299.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.74909375000004,"end":293.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.78596875,"end":304.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.97909375,"end":306.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.35034375000004,"end":310.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.78034375000004,"end":308.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.07971875000004,"end":309.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.64909375,"end":311.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.96534375000005,"end":312.97784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.124,"end":28.202,"text":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員主任委員主委好最近經常看到你憂心忡忡覺得很心疼因為但是我必須要肯定你很誠實的勇敢的公布了我們的人口退估數字所以呢整個的"},{"start":29.315,"end":35.161,"text":"我們不敢面對的事情就是臺灣的人口惡化。」"},{"start":44.628,"end":70.066,"text":"這一個人口的這個資料所以這個本週立法院都就是人口週現在這個同時未完在談人口老化的問題那經濟在談少子化的問題顯然大家都是追隨你的腳步非常的關注那這是一個很重要精神但國發會是人口的專家是我們國家在這個引導整個人口政策"},{"start":72.007,"end":79.19,"text":"所以也期待我們不要憂心勇敢地往前走發揮你世代夫的精神嚴所當言為所當委"},{"start":81.653,"end":104.788,"text":"那當然這個就知道今天在談少子化那這個可能前面有人提過了就是我們其實每年都花了上千億但是我們的少子化幾乎是每兩年就要減少減少一萬這個的人口推估你看這幾年來從1.78逐年一直下降"},{"start":106.309,"end":112.451,"text":"下降到你現在推估的最新2025年0.87但是呢這個後面這個反而又上揚這個是依據有什麼理由台灣未來的這個生育率會上升這個主委請教你"},{"start":126.316,"end":149.964,"text":"我們現在我們原來的計畫是希望透過2024年、2025年我們現在整個目標就是要努力守住現在的出生率先不讓它往下降然後之後我們才會來談怎麼樣的往上升所以我們總是要表示一下我們願意朝這個方向的決心當然你一定要樂觀我們當然也是期待這樣子"},{"start":151.244,"end":170.945,"text":"只是應該按照現在的一個下降的速度應該也不用等到大家都說提早的15年事實上不只提早15年今年是2024年可能看起來是2026年、2027年就會破10萬了按照現在的速度還不用等到2040年所以這個問題是非常嚴重"},{"start":174.068,"end":199.355,"text":"應該就國發會要告訴我們的政府少子化、高齡化已經定型了你也提出了不可逆轉所以我們要面對這樣的一個事實我們過去都把它當作邊陲問題頭痛一頭、腳痛一頭反正遇到問題就用短期政策應付一下、短期政策應付一下但是請國發會告訴我們的政府"},{"start":199.935,"end":219.148,"text":"不可逆轉已經定型了所以我們要為未來少子化高齡化的社會好好的來做設計不然這個台灣真的是一個非常大的危機未來30年最重要的事情就是國發會的事情人口的事接下來我們少子化高齡化跟少子化一體之兩面"},{"start":220.949,"end":241.416,"text":"為什麼會少子化?現在用這種補貼的政策能夠解決嗎?最重要的他們是沒有未來那沒有未來兩個,一個高齡化會壓垮,現在扶養比3.6、比1接下來2014年會2比1接下來高齡化這個問題不解決的話年輕人沒有未來了啦,我們要告訴年輕人所以要解決,同時呢"},{"start":242.256,"end":261.149,"text":"我在談的壯世代就是把分子被撫養的分子拉下來當分模讓台灣的基本盤每一個人都成為生產者消費者壯捷你認不認同?這個我們已經在進行了所以勞動部也有中高齡就業法也有就家人服務所以這些已經在進行了"},{"start":262.671,"end":277.051,"text":"我知道都在進行今天談的就是說我們行政院都在進行的而且現在也放寬了退休的規範也推出了很多但是我想這個主委是專家用24G的腦袋無法解決21G的問題現在推出來的"},{"start":279.514,"end":297.943,"text":"就是雖然有很多部會在做但是呢其實沒有人沒有預算沒有法制沒有什麼所有的用現狀的問題用解決過去的那種老舊的問題來解決未來問題所以就我們主委就是你努力我們就會支持你"},{"start":298.183,"end":299.185,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（14時16分）有請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["吳委員春城：主委好！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：吳委員好！"],["吳委員春城：最近經常看到你憂心忡忡，覺得很心疼！但是我必須要肯定你，很誠實的、勇敢的公布了我們的人口推估數字，現在我們不敢面對的事情就是臺灣的人口惡化。","看到這個人口資料，所以本週立法院就是人口週，現在同時衛環委員會在談人口老化的問題，經濟委員會在談少子化的問題，顯然大家都是追隨你的腳步，非常的關注，這是一個很重要的精神。國發會是人口的專家，引導我們國家的整個人口政策，所以也期待你們不要憂心，勇敢的往前走，發揮你士大夫的精神，言所當言，為所當為。","今天在談少子化，這個可能前面有人提過了，就是我們其實每年都花上千億，但是我們的少子化幾乎是每2年就要減少1萬，你看這個人口推估，這幾年來，從1.78逐年一直下降，下降到現在你最新的推估2025年是0.87，但是後面反而又上揚，主委，請教你，這個是依據什麼、有什麼理由臺灣未來的生育率會上升？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們原來的計畫是2024年、2025年整個目標就是要努力守住現在的出生率，先不讓它往下降，之後我們才會來談怎麼樣往上升……"],["吳委員春城：好，這個……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們總是要表示一下我們願意朝這個方向的決心……"],["吳委員春城：對啦！當然人一定要樂觀，我們當然也是期待這樣子，只是按照現在下降的速度，大家都說提早了15年，事實上，不只提早了15年，今年是2024年，看起來2026年、2027年就會破10萬了，按照現在的速度，還不用等到2040年，所以這個問題是非常的嚴重！國發會應該要告訴我們政府，少子化、高齡化已經定型了，你也提出了不可逆轉，所以我們要面對這樣的一個事實，我們過去都把它當作邊陲問題，頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫頭，反正遇到問題就用短期政策應付一下，但是請國發會告訴我們的政府，不可逆轉已經定型了！所以我們要為未來少子化、高齡化的社會好好設計，不然這真的是臺灣非常大的一個危機。未來30年最重要的事情就是國發會的事情、人口的事。","高齡化跟少子化是一體之兩面，為什麼會少子化？現在用這種補貼的政策能夠解決嗎？最重要的是他們沒有未來，沒有未來有兩個點，一個是高齡化會壓垮年輕人，現在扶養比是3.6比1，接下來2040年會2比1，高齡化問題不解決的話，年輕人沒有未來了，我們要告訴年輕人要解決；同時我在談的壯世代，就是把被扶養的分子拉下來當分母，讓臺灣的基本盤，每一個人都成為生產者、消費者，這樣你認不認同？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們已經在進行了，勞動部也有中高齡就業法，也有做這樣的服務，所以這些已經在進行了。"],["吳委員春城：我知道都在進行，今天談的就是行政院都在進行的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且我們現在也放寬了退休的規範。"],["吳委員春城：你們也推出了很多，我想主委是專家，用二十世紀的腦袋無法解決二十一世紀的問題，現在推出來的雖然有很多部會在做，但是沒有人、沒有預算、沒有法制、沒有什麼……所有現狀的問題，用過去解決老舊問題的方法來解決未來問題。"],["主席：吳委員，謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：所以主委你努力，我們就會支持你，加油！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們對下一代少子化的計畫，下一階段的計畫應該會很明確。"],["吳委員春城：OK，好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為明年到期嘛！"],["吳委員春城：好的，期待。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：會再有新的計畫出來。"],["吳委員春城：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員，主委請回座。","下一位羅明才、羅明才，羅明才不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷不在。","林倩綺、林倩綺，林倩綺不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱不在。","葉元之、葉元之，葉元之不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。","本日議程處理完畢，大家辛苦了，現在散會。","散會（14時22分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156181","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156181","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b1c793ba1a9b20c22982770301154c67d1d1511f8323946426e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"14:10:31 - 14:16:11","影片長度":"00:05:40","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:10:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:16:11+08:00","duration":340,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.62846875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.379093750000003,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.24346875,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.17846875,"end":29.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.17784375,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.99159375,"end":36.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.34159375,"end":62.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.400968750000004,"end":66.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.54784375,"end":70.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.93971875,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.36096875,"end":78.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.65159375,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.75471875000001,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.98471875000001,"end":107.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.98034375,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.13846875,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.98096875000002,"end":135.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.75659375,"end":143.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.80596875,"end":144.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.98721875,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.16721875000002,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.70284375,"end":160.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.25471875000002,"end":166.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.16096875000002,"end":167.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.98784375000002,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.74284375000002,"end":173.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.40034375000002,"end":174.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.07534375,"end":199.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.20534375,"end":180.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.67596875,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.43471875,"end":198.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.95346875,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.03346875000003,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.07971875,"end":201.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.13034375,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.83846875,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.13284375,"end":216.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.26721875,"end":220.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.39721875,"end":230.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.81346875000003,"end":231.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.69096875000002,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.81721875000002,"end":260.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.84659375,"end":262.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.87596875,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.60909375,"end":299.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.50721875,"end":274.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.00034375,"end":277.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.46846875,"end":278.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.26159375000003,"end":279.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.94909375000003,"end":281.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.37221875,"end":329.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.88659375000003,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.77221875000004,"end":339.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.78409375,"end":338.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.10034375000004,"end":339.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.85971875,"end":339.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.87659375000004,"end":340.63596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.469,"end":22.063,"text":"張雅琳委員謝謝主席我們有請主委我的等一下我的遙控器我先報筆"},{"start":28.246,"end":29.191,"text":"都是下一頁。」好。"},{"start":37.951,"end":47.854,"text":"謝謝主委我想請教有關於少子化的政策我看了一下我們其實今天我們主計總處其實從107年到現在推出少子女化的對策計畫從193.72億提高到現在112年度已經是1088.27億而今年也持續的去超過了1201億"},{"start":62.519,"end":65.853,"text":"但是我們的小孩並沒有多生一點"},{"start":67.611,"end":91.748,"text":"那講這個問題呢其實我並沒有要指責國發會的意思因為其實我今年看的這個經濟學人他今年其實就在講全世界的生育率持續的下降但是其實大家都持續的不停的撒錢所以他的標題就是說撒錢換小孩但其實他裡面有一個他裡面就舉了一個例子就是說從韓國2006年到現在他每一年花2700億美元"},{"start":93.829,"end":104.686,"text":"然後大概是佔國家的1%來作為鼓勵生育這件事情可是呢其實他縱觀了全球不管是北歐、法國、美國各個地方的他其實歸納出來一個結論就是說其實呢"},{"start":110.251,"end":129.625,"text":"這個只要女性不想生育了就很難起死回生因為觀念的轉變讓年輕女性不想再拼命生小孩現今的補貼對於中低收入的家庭有短暫的吸引力第三個就是中等階級的家庭比起育兒更在乎自己的家庭生活那他其中也有提到一個解放就是說"},{"start":131.238,"end":142.699,"text":"在北歐,以北歐的例子來說,我們如果可以提供一個更友善的措施,例如產假或優渥的兒童托育政策,就可能會有一個小幅度的提升。」"},{"start":145.051,"end":173.312,"text":"就是小幅度喔,非常小幅度那這個研究其實我也發現中研院鄭彥新研究員也有相關的研究在講為何孩子越生越少他談少子化的困境那他其實裡面也有去講到就是說這個結論是跟經濟學人一樣的不過我想要先講一件事情喔他剛講就是支持友善的環境那我不曉得主委有沒有在網路上面看過各式各樣的厭害言論"},{"start":175.818,"end":191.953,"text":"我有這個習慣在網路上搜集這些訊息我們也從網路上看到的確目前來講心態上的不爭比什麼都多我們也可以感受到其實我們有找文化部討論因為很多是文化層次"},{"start":192.754,"end":220.41,"text":"我想你可以看到美國人都願意多生小孩因為他們的溫情在不論在電視節目或是在家庭生活對我想文化是一個部分我們反而變少了文化的部分是一個但是我可以我舉一個例子就是說你可以看到上面講的當一個家長他們其實在上面討論就是說我帶小孩搭飛機我要準備什麼東西我是不是要讓他吃個鼻塞藥讓他在上面好睡覺我就不會吵到別人我今天搭去餐廳吃飯我要整理得多乾淨我才不會被"},{"start":221.431,"end":245.155,"text":"餐廳的老闆媽才會被別人偷拍照。」但其實整個社會是一個非常厭寒的環境其實這增加了女性尤其是特別是女性在育兒的時候她的這個擔憂跟困境所以我會覺得說我們今天在做少子化的時候我們除了現金補貼之外還有我們現在做的這些政策之外我們是不是可以有更開闊的一些思考來去思考"},{"start":245.635,"end":260.536,"text":"如何從不管從文化的角度也好從整個家長的教育也好來去支持讓我們的所有的小孩都可以被城市裡的大人們可以看見所以第一個建議我想問我們是不是可以讓各個部會來舉辦這個所謂的家庭日"},{"start":262.18,"end":280.502,"text":"這個我因為整個主政還是陳時中政委我會把這個想法去跟他說一個說明我希望就是說因為大家還是需要因為大家可能不生小孩其實不太能夠理解生有的小孩子在這個城市裡他會遇到什麼樣子的問題如果我可以把小孩帶來職場的話大家都可以有一些感受我覺得這是第一個步"},{"start":280.942,"end":281.502,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":300.987,"end":328.875,"text":"我們有召集大家來可是只有21家企業有員工來申請那其實這個比例是非常低那我們是不是可以來做一個檢討了解一下怎麼樣可以鼓勵我們更多的企業來投入申請這個企業的彈性育嬰假因為有非常多的家長還是有告訴我們說其實他就算想要去請的時候老公、他的老闆可能會告訴他他人資可能會告訴他你要考慮一下你老闆的想法你要考慮一下你未來的生前在某種程度還是暗示了他不能去申請"},{"start":330.435,"end":331.356,"text":"是否可以來做一個檢討,針對這個面向?」"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":899,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（14時10分）謝謝主席。我們有請主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：張委員好！"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝主委。我想要請教有關於少子化的這個政策，我看了一下我們主計總處的統計，關於從107年推出少子女化的對策計畫，經費從193.72億提高到現在112年度已經是1,088.27億，而今年也持續超過了1,201億，但是我們的小孩並沒有多生一點。","講這個問題我並沒有要指責國發會的意思，因為其實我看了今年的「經濟學人」，它今年就在講全世界的生育率持續的下降，但是大家都持續不停的撒錢，所以它的標題就是「撒錢換小孩」，其實它裡面就舉了一個例子，就是韓國從2006年到現在每一年花2,700億美元，大概占國家的1%，作為鼓勵生育這件事情，可是縱觀全球，不管是北歐、法國、美國、各個地方，它歸納出來一個結論，就是只要女性不想生育，就很難起死回生！因為觀念的轉變，讓年輕女性不想再拚命生小孩；還有現金的補貼對於中低收入的家庭有短暫的吸引力；第三個是中等階級的家庭，比起育兒，更在乎自己的家庭生活。它其中也有提到一個解方，它以北歐的例子來說，其實我們如果可以提供一個更友善的措施，例如產假，或是優渥的兒童托育政策，就可能會有小幅度的提升，就是小幅度，非常小幅度。關於這個研究，其實我發現中研院鄭雁馨研究員也有相關的研究在講為何孩子越生越少，他談少子化的困境，裡面也有講到，這個結論和「經濟學人」是一樣的，不過我想要先講一件事情，它剛剛講支持友善的環境，我不曉得主委有沒有在網路上面看過各式各樣的厭孩言論？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我有這個習慣，在網路上搜尋、蒐集這些訊息，我們也從網路上看到，的確以目前來講，心態上的不生比什麼都多，我們也可以感受到，其實我們也有找文化部討論，因為很多是文化層次，我想你可以看到美國人都願意多生小孩，因為他們的溫情不論在電視節目或者是在家庭生活都會遇到，我們反而變少了。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我想文化的部分是一個，但是我舉一個例子，你可以看到上面講的，他們其實在上面討論，當一個家長帶小孩搭飛機，他要準備什麼東西，是不是要讓他吃鼻塞藥，讓他在上面好睡覺，就不會吵到別人；還有今天大家去餐廳吃飯，他要整理得多乾淨，才不會被餐廳的老闆罵，才不會被別人偷拍照。其實如果整個社會是一個非常厭孩的環境，這增加了女性，特別是女性，在育兒時候的擔憂及困境，所以我會覺得我們今天在做少子化對策的時候，除了現金補貼之外，還有我們現在做的這些政策之外，我們是不是可以有更開闊的一些思考，去思考如何從文化的角度也好、從整個家長的教育來支持，讓我們所有的小孩都可以被城市裡的大人們看見。所以第一個建議，我想問我們是不是可以讓各個部會來舉辦所謂的家庭日？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為整個主政還是陳時中政委，我會把這個想法跟他做一個說明，希望他考慮進來。"],["張委員雅琳：因為大家不生小孩，其實不太能夠理解有小孩在這個城市裡會遇到什麼樣的問題，如果可以把小孩帶來職場的話，大家都可以有一些感受，我覺得這是第一個部分。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，瞭解。"],["張委員雅琳：第二個部分是因為我們其實需要整個村莊大家一起來支持，才有可能好好的讓大家願意生小孩，所以除了現金補貼之外，我們可不可以針對我們現在的彈性育嬰假做一個檢討呢？我知道，雖然我們有召集企業來，可是只有21家企業有員工申請，其實這個比例是非常低，所以我們是不是可以來做一個檢討，瞭解一下怎麼樣可以鼓勵更多企業來投入彈性育嬰假，因為有非常多家長還是告訴我們，他就算想要申請，老闆可能會告訴他，人資可能會告訴他，他要考慮一下他老闆的想法，他要考慮一下未來的升遷，在某種程度還是暗示了他不能去申請。所以我們是不是可以來做一個檢討，針對這個面向？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我請陳政委找勞動部來討論這件事情，來檢討一下這件事。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。主委請回座。","下一位質詢請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156180","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156180","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b25d80fb13aa177496b4c0e929d5f577f1d1511f832394642a584b8aae4e4ec475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"13:53:20 - 14:07:56","影片長度":"00:14:36","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:53:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:07:56+08:00","duration":876,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.414093750000001,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.902843750000002,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.77909375,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.28346875,"end":38.759093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.096593750000004,"end":42.336593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.775343750000005,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.47971875,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.74534375,"end":47.517218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.60159375,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.74909375,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.930343750000006,"end":57.321593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.55784375,"end":59.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.93721875000001,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.47284375,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.46221875,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.20721875000001,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.57659375,"end":114.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.44471875,"end":106.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.16534375,"end":113.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.35909375000001,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.69034375000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.29346875000002,"end":130.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.76159375,"end":130.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.79534375,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.03534375,"end":139.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.08596875,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.71784375000001,"end":141.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.18596875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.49659375000002,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.68596875,"end":157.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.42409375,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.72659375,"end":166.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.80659375000002,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.03846875000002,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.85659375,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.01346875000002,"end":212.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.77409375000002,"end":216.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.67221875,"end":218.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.42284375000003,"end":220.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.41846875000002,"end":231.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.33221875,"end":274.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.73909375,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.25284375,"end":312.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.33659375,"end":314.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.27284375,"end":323.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.92971875,"end":331.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.98784375,"end":348.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.21909375,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.96909375,"end":342.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.63909375000003,"end":362.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.54846875000004,"end":362.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.91096875,"end":367.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.38284375,"end":369.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.64409375,"end":375.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.57596875,"end":387.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.64971875000003,"end":400.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.35221875,"end":405.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.87471875,"end":410.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.94159375000004,"end":417.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.32909375,"end":416.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.42471875,"end":438.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.18596875000003,"end":439.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.94534375,"end":440.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.11409375000005,"end":440.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.40096875,"end":457.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.21471875000003,"end":444.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.62784375,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.29409375,"end":449.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.63159375000004,"end":449.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.89284375000005,"end":451.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.95096875,"end":459.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":459.75659375000004,"end":465.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.03846875000005,"end":466.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.87784375,"end":490.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.90784375000004,"end":492.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.08471875000004,"end":495.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.11846875000003,"end":497.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.80159375000005,"end":498.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.10909375000006,"end":511.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.15971875,"end":499.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.88909375000003,"end":504.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.96471875000003,"end":505.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.03221875,"end":506.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.36471875,"end":525.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.33784375,"end":521.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.7847187500001,"end":524.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":525.9740937500001,"end":526.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.48034375,"end":527.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.9653437500001,"end":527.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.9822187500001,"end":529.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.01596875,"end":534.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.6140937499999,"end":543.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.63096875,"end":534.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.6984687500001,"end":534.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.90096875,"end":539.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.21596875,"end":547.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.0803437500001,"end":552.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.0928437499999,"end":561.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.44596875,"end":558.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.12909375,"end":602.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.32221875,"end":566.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.0872187500001,"end":585.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.54284375,"end":587.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.7890937500001,"end":606.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.38346875,"end":618.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":618.6853437500001,"end":634.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.09784375,"end":625.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.83096875,"end":634.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.37909375,"end":660.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":656.9578437499999,"end":660.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":660.9740937500001,"end":663.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":663.9778437500001,"end":675.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.57971875,"end":698.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":676.66784375,"end":679.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.46034375,"end":681.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":694.3190937500001,"end":695.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":697.8628437500001,"end":702.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":703.0265937500001,"end":703.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.9209687500002,"end":715.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.9197187500001,"end":712.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":715.9697187500001,"end":716.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.03721875,"end":716.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":716.79659375,"end":724.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.2390937499999,"end":725.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":725.62221875,"end":736.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.78971875,"end":747.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":742.3115937500002,"end":742.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.3315937500001,"end":752.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.4197187500001,"end":753.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.4740937500001,"end":757.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.00971875,"end":762.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.25409375,"end":762.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.02534375,"end":769.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.83534375,"end":770.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.8134687500001,"end":777.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.1628437500001,"end":779.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.8415937500001,"end":782.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.7865937500001,"end":796.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.4678437500002,"end":802.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.65659375,"end":856.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":858.8334687500001,"end":862.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":863.2209687500001,"end":865.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":864.7397187500001,"end":871.6922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":870.73034375,"end":872.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":873.7847187500001,"end":875.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":876.11346875,"end":876.9740937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.943,"end":10.364,"text":"老保局白局長、勞動關係司黃副司長"},{"start":31.826,"end":48.064,"text":"白局長我想請問一下因為針對我們勞保局有發一份公文我想請問一下白局長針對說明的第4點局長可以幫我們唸一遍嗎說明的第4點你看得到嗎可以"},{"start":48.803,"end":67.087,"text":"可以幫我們唸一下嗎?報告委員我們的第4點是提到說至於勞資雙方如對僱傭關係存續期間之認定有爭議應向工作所在地之縣市政府勞工行政機關申請條處或尋司法途徑解決與以彌爭議那這個主要是源自於現在針對勞資爭議有一個勞資爭議處理法所以我們以這樣的一個規定在這邊去續名"},{"start":75.549,"end":95.867,"text":"所以他這邊有講嘛僱傭關係的存續期間那這個認定還有就是我們工作場所縣市政府勞工行政機關申請調處的意思也就是說那照我們勞保局講這個契約的性質它為定期或不定期應該是勞政主管機關的責任對不對"},{"start":99.902,"end":125.021,"text":"各位委員報告,我們這邊主要是依勞資爭議處理法裡面,針對勞資雙方如果有爭議,他們依循的法令不見得是勞動基準法,就是在勞資之間有爭議的話都可以依照基準來處理。所以依我們勞保局我們第4點講嘛,就是雇佣關係的存續,這部分勞工行政機關來申請調處嘛,所以這部分是勞動主管機關來負責處理嘛。"},{"start":127.708,"end":149.086,"text":"你就針對第4點嘛對不對你的意思是不是這樣如果他要勞資正義調解可以找地方政府對啊就是有勞政主管機關那中央是勞動部嘛地方就是縣市政府嘛對不對沒有錯吧對沒關係你就針對你的回答就好你不要緊張好那我再請問一下我們勞動關係師黃副司長那針對我們"},{"start":155.962,"end":163.848,"text":"韓港局我們有發文韓巡就是有關勞動契約的爭議,勞動契約爭議應該是我們勞動關係司在負責的業管單位嗎?勞動契約章是我們勞動關係司"},{"start":171.582,"end":191.935,"text":"對,那我想請問一下副司長針對在航港局的回覆我們來討論一下你看有沒有什麼錯誤或者你覺得他這公文回覆有什麼問題的地方然後針對這公文我們把它陳述出來就是針對傳言法是否明定"},{"start":193.089,"end":218.107,"text":"明文定義傳言法中何為定期契約、不定期契約那韓港局針對我們這問題他的回覆是說經查傳言法及相關執法並無定義定期契約或不定期契約也就是說傳言法他不管是本身他傳言法或相關執法並沒有明確的定義嘛這一部分他的回覆是這樣"},{"start":223.193,"end":233.807,"text":"第二點,我們傳言法的僱傭契約中定期契約不定期契約的定義,載明中華民國哪一部法律中"},{"start":234.548,"end":249.112,"text":"那業管的機關部會單位為何?那行管局的回覆是載於勞基法的第9條主管機關在中央為勞動部在直轄市為縣市政府"},{"start":252.353,"end":273.838,"text":"所以這部分跟剛剛我們勞保局的回覆也是一樣所以針對我們傳援法的僱傭契約他就說在中華民國法律就是勞基法第9條也就是說主管機關在中央的勞動部在地方的就是縣市政府在航港局的回覆沒關係如果你覺得航港局會有問題你也可以提出"},{"start":274.838,"end":286.526,"text":"然後第3點傳言法中受僱用之傳言針對其僱傭契約實質為定期契約不定期契約有相關爭議時就計投訴機關為何韓港局的回覆是說傳言對於僱傭契約之契約形式如有爭議勞資雙方可透過勞動主管機關進行協調或透過民事訴訟"},{"start":301.997,"end":307.918,"text":"也就是說在中央他可以透過勞動部在地方可以透過縣市政府因為這剛剛已經講過嘛那針對這部分韓港局的回覆我們副市長你覺得他回覆有沒有問題謝謝委員因為我們其實此時此刻我們也針對剛剛委員關心的議題我們正請交通部我們正式請交通部那個函付給我們那我們兩個部會之間會針對這樣的一個議題進行討論可是他已經函付了嘛"},{"start":331.804,"end":349.057,"text":"拜見韓副主管機關就是中央就是勞動部啊一方就是縣市政府我只要正確說目前是不是這樣以後你們要怎麼協調是你以後的事你現在就是這樣子嘛對不對現在的法令就是這樣嘛韓港局的回覆就是這樣啊因為這是韓港局委員這邊提到韓港局這邊提的"},{"start":351.459,"end":366.408,"text":"因為我們這邊同時航空局交通部本部上沒有還沒有回覆給我們相關的每一個條文勞動法傳言勞動權好我的意思說以現在你不要繞圈子嘛現在航空局的回覆有沒有問題嗎"},{"start":367.429,"end":386.827,"text":"因為這個部分在法院他也有一些的看法實務上面到最高法院跟監察院所以現在現在看得到的法令就是這些問題這些勞動契約他就很明確講啊傳言法就沒有定定明確定定定期或不定期啊他說"},{"start":387.808,"end":405.465,"text":"仔明於中華民國哪一部法律．他說就是勞基法第9條啊主管機關中央就是勞動部地方就是縣市政府剛剛勞保局也講然後現在韓港局也回復這樣也就是說其實這個回復都是一致的嘛所以是沒有問題嘛而且是公文回復喔不是私底下聊天喔"},{"start":406.285,"end":417.21,"text":"跟委員報告我們這幾年來其實都有跟交通部好沒關係我只要你認定這個文是沒有問題就好好那我接下來請一下我們何部長"},{"start":423.676,"end":438.035,"text":"副部長,因為針對上次質詢過後我們有一些疑義,那我後來也請相關單位也來了解一下,那這是上次我們質詢的影片,我們先放一下看你上次的回覆是怎麼回覆本席的。"},{"start":440.467,"end":465.725,"text":"他們是定期企業或不定期企業不是勞動部界定的他不是有勞基法主管的範圍啦勞動企業是船員法這個特別法區認定的他的主管機關認定的不是我所以船員法不是對船員法是交通部航港局主管的他的勞僱關係的界定必須從船員法去處理"},{"start":467.083,"end":490.148,"text":"部長因為我那時候想說部長很專業啦所以我很相信可是後來我還是要下去查證可是我發現你看剛剛勞保局跟航港局的回覆你勞動關係事業講目前航港局這回覆是沒有問題的那照這樣來講好像我們部長的回覆跟我們航港局的回覆還有勞保局的回覆基本上好像是不太一致欸"},{"start":490.933,"end":493.558,"text":"老子爭議處理法"},{"start":499.127,"end":524.181,"text":"他是說勞僱關係如果他們之間有爭論的話我上次是有問你大勞工局去調解或是法院去認定我上次有特別問你他的僱傭關係的契約性質定期跟不定期是由誰來界定你說不是勞動部界定然後你還跟我講說這是傳言法界定"},{"start":526.502,"end":547.58,"text":"那是韓港局說謊嗎?我跟您報告交通部現在正在擬定不定期契約範本傳言法裡面的不定期契約範本傳言法裡面有定期契約目前現行是定期契約他目前沒有不定期契約範本他現在正在研擬"},{"start":548.12,"end":567.91,"text":"那個部長剛剛我又講吼,韓港局回覆他沒有定義吼。委員,這個影片跟剛剛我們問的我相信大家都看得非常非常的清楚。你直接就回覆我問你"},{"start":569.071,"end":576.277,"text":"我問你擁固關係的契約性質定期跟不定期到底是怎麼界定你從頭到尾都說跟勞動部沒有關係你說這是傳言法你還跟我講傳言法是特別法那韓港局也是這樣"},{"start":585.985,"end":602.235,"text":"這個傳言法從頭到尾他就不定義定期契約跟不定期契約而且他還直接講這個在勞基法第9條就原有講這個所有的勞動契約主管機關中央為勞動部地方為縣市政府我不知道部長你現在在爭什麼"},{"start":603.376,"end":611.204,"text":"委員我唸傳言法第12條給您聽。僱傭人僱傭傳言應簽訂書面僱傭契約,送請行政主管機關備查後,受僱傳言使得在傳上服務。僱傭契約終止時一統。第13條僱傭人僱傭傳言僱傭契約範本由行政主管機關定之。"},{"start":624.758,"end":637.744,"text":"對這個僱傭的關係他裡面定期或不定期都是傳言法去界定的目前傳言法這個我告訴你他們怎麼跟假設今天這是中綱運通"},{"start":638.724,"end":638.744,"text":"第1個"},{"start":664.504,"end":672.349,"text":"該去處理的直接的是高雄市政府勞工局如果沒有的話他們現在有在民事法院訴訟中而且已經達到最高法院去了"},{"start":694.464,"end":715.352,"text":"因為我們協定單位所有事情都推給法院通通不用處理了協定真的不是我的權利而我必須尊重司法那個法院的見解是這個法律這個牢記法已經寫得很清楚了所以韓港局的回覆所以我就說那很簡單啊不然就是韓港局說謊不然就是部長說謊這麼簡單"},{"start":717.233,"end":724.637,"text":"我們沒有誰說謊啦,我們都講的是事實因為牢記法是普通法我再強調牢記法是普通法傳言必須適用傳言法這個特別法優先所以傳言法的規定他會比牢記法優先適用你那時候講傳言法特別法我跟你講那牢記法是什麼法"},{"start":740.646,"end":741.767,"text":"普通法?"},{"start":741.767,"end":742.367,"text":"是普通法"},{"start":755.472,"end":757.955,"text":"老幾法是特別法還是普通法?傳言法是特別法,老幾法是什麼法?"},{"start":770.831,"end":794.216,"text":"我們勞動基準法是適用僱用關係的普通法只要我們第一勞基法第一條所以你講勞基法不是特別法嗎對不對是傳言法是特別法傳言法是特別法勞基法不是特別法那重點我們這個後法本來就是優於前法當然是你勞基法比傳言法大啊那今天它發生爭議的時候你怎麼全部推"},{"start":796.196,"end":817.441,"text":"老計法第1條就明文規定如果有特別法的話要依特別法這是老計法第1條的明文規定好我希望吼我相信吶現在我們要一個明確的問題我說很簡單韓港局的回覆剛剛我們也講得很清楚了那部長的回覆跟他的回覆根本就是完全相反的"},{"start":817.921,"end":831.811,"text":"所以我希望韓港局跟部長給我們一個明確的答案我不希望我們委員本席在這邊質詢的時候得到的答案部長給我們答案跟我們下去跟韓港局要的回覆是完全不一樣"},{"start":833.112,"end":855.719,"text":"我真的很想講我不知道為什麼我還聽到之前執政黨立委說我們勞動部有藐視國會的情形所以我希望這個事情能夠讓我們了解清楚而且我是認為這很明確啦部長你的答覆跟韓港局的回覆根本是天壤之別完全是相反然後你說是一致的我看不出哪裡一致完全都是不一樣的"},{"start":858.905,"end":871.96,"text":"委員那個兩個部會本來我們在這部分的認知有差距問題我們得到的答案都是不一樣你怎麼協調那是以後的事現在你給我們的答覆就是不一樣的好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1208,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時53分）謝謝主席，先請勞保局的白局長，還有勞動關係司的黃副司長。"],["主席：白局長、黃副司長。"],["涂委員權吉：白局長，勞保局有發一份公文，我想請問一下白局長，針對說明的第四點，局長可以幫我們唸一遍嗎？說明的第四點，你看得到嗎？"],["白局長麗真：可以。"],["涂委員權吉：可以幫我們唸一下嗎？"],["白局長麗真：報告委員，我們的第四點是提到，至於勞資雙方如對僱傭關係存續期間之認定有爭議，應向工作所在地之縣（市）政府勞工行政機關申請調處或循司法途徑解決以弭爭議。這個主要是源自於，現在針對勞資爭議有一個勞資爭議處理法，所以我們以這樣的一個規定在這邊去敘明。"],["涂委員權吉：所以他這邊有講嘛，僱傭關係存續期間的認定，還有向工作場所縣市政府勞工行政機關申請調處的意思，也就是照勞保局講的，這個契約的性質，它為定期或不定期，應該是勞政主管機關的責任，對不對？"],["白局長麗真：跟委員報告，我們這邊主要是依勞資爭議處理法，針對勞資雙方如果有爭議，他們依循的法令不見得是勞動基準法，就是在勞資之間有爭議的話，都可以依途徑來處理。"],["涂委員權吉：所以依勞保局第四點所表示的，就是僱傭關係的存續，這部分由勞工行政機關來申請調處，因此這部分是勞動主管機關來負責處理嘛！你就針對第四點，對不對？你的意思是不是這樣？"],["白局長麗真：如果他要勞資爭議調解可以找地方政府。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！就是由勞政主管機關，中央是勞動部，地方就是縣市政府，對不對？沒有錯吧！"],["白局長麗真：是。"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，你就針對你的回答就好，你不要緊張。","我再請問一下勞動關係司黃副司長，針對航港局，我們有發文函詢，有關勞動契約的爭議，勞動契約爭議應該是勞動關係司在負責的業管單位嘛！"],["黃副司長琦雅：勞動契約章是我們勞動關係司。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我想請問一下副司長，針對航港局的回復，我們來討論一下，你看有沒有什麼錯誤，或者你覺得它的公文回復有什麼問題的地方。針對這個公文，我們把它陳述出來，針對船員法是否明文定義船員法中何為定期契約、不定期契約？航港局針對這個問題的回復是，經查船員法及相關子法，並無定義定期契約或不定期契約。也就是說，船員法不管是本身或相關子法並沒有明確定義，這部分它的回復是這樣，沒有錯吧？你有看到公文是這樣回復嘛！第二點，船員法僱傭契約中，定期契約、不定期契約的定義載明於中華民國哪一部法律中？業管機關部會、單位為何？航港局的回復是，載於勞基法第九條，主管機關在中央為勞動部；在直轄市為直轄市政府；在縣（市）為縣（市）政府。所以這部分跟剛剛勞保局的回復也是一樣，因此針對船員法的僱傭契約，它就表示在中華民國法律就是勞基法第九條。也就是說，主管機關在中央是勞動部，在地方的就是縣市政府，這是航港局的回復。沒關係，如果你覺得航港局的回復有問題，你也可以提出。然後第三點，船員法中受僱用之船員，針對其僱傭契約實質為定期契約、不定期契約有相關爭議時，救濟、投訴機關為何？航港局的回復是，船員對於僱傭契約之契約形式如有爭議，勞資雙方可透過勞動主管機關進行協調或透過民事訴訟。也就是說，在中央可以透過勞動部，在地方可以透過縣市政府，這個剛剛已經講過。針對航港局的回復，副司長覺得它的回復有沒有問題？"],["黃副司長琦雅：謝謝委員，其實此時此刻我們也針對剛剛委員關心的議題正式請交通部函復給我們，我們兩個部會之間會針對這樣的一個議題進行討論……"],["涂委員權吉：不是，它已經函復了，已經函復主管機關在中央就是勞動部，地方就是縣市政府，我只要正確說目前是不是這樣，以後你們要怎麼協調是以後的事，現在就是這樣子，對不對？"],["黃副司長琦雅：因為……"],["涂委員權吉：現在的法令就是這樣嘛！航港局的回復就是這樣啊！"],["黃副司長琦雅：委員提到航港局這邊提的，因為交通部本部還沒有回復給我們相關的每一個條文，勞動法、船員勞動權益的問題，所以我們會儘速在做。"],["涂委員權吉：我的意思是說，以現在……你不要繞圈子，現在航港局的回復有沒有問題？"],["黃副司長琦雅：因為這個部分在法院也有一些看法，實務上面到最高法院跟監察院也都有看法。"],["涂委員權吉：所以現在看得到的法令就是這些問題，這些勞動契約就很明確提到船員法沒有明確訂定定期或不定期啊！載明於中華民國哪一部法令？它表示就是勞基法第九條，主管機關在中央就是勞動部，地方就是縣市政府。剛剛勞保局也講，然後現在航港局也回復這樣，也就是說，其實這個回復都是一致的，所以是沒有問題，而且是以公文回復，不是私底下聊天喔！"],["黃副司長琦雅：跟委員報告，我們這幾年來其實都有跟交通部溝通……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，我只要你認定這個文是沒有問題的就好。","我接下來請一下何部長。何部長，針對上次質詢過後我們有一些疑義，我後來也請相關單位來了解一下，這是上次我們質詢的影片，我們先放一下，看你上次是怎麼回復本席的。","（播放影片）"],["涂委員權吉：部長，因為我那時候想說部長很專業，所以我們很相信，但是後來我還是要下去查證，可是我發現，你看剛剛勞保局跟航港局的回復，勞動關係司也講，目前航港局的回復是沒有問題的，照這樣來講，好像部長的回復跟航港局的回復還有勞保局的回復基本上好像不太一致。"],["何部長佩珊：沒有不一致，委員，它跟勞保局就是表示……"],["涂委員權吉：你上次有跟我講這是船員法啊！"],["何部長佩珊：勞資爭議處理法，如果勞僱關係之間有爭論的話，就依勞資爭議處理法……"],["涂委員權吉：我上一次有問你喔！我上次是有問你……"],["何部長佩珊：讓勞工局去調解或是法院去認定，那因為……"],["涂委員權吉：我上次有特別問你僱傭關係的契約性質，定期跟不定期是由誰來界定，你說不是勞動部界定……"],["何部長佩珊：確實不是我。"],["涂委員權吉：然後你還跟我講這是船員法界定。"],["何部長佩珊：確實不是我，對。"],["涂委員權吉：那……"],["何部長佩珊：確實不是我，委員……"],["涂委員權吉：那是航港局說謊嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我跟您報告，交通部現在正在擬定不定期契約範本……"],["涂委員權吉：報告部長……"],["何部長佩珊：船員法裡面的不定期契約範本……"],["涂委員權吉：但是我不管你們以後要怎麼處理……"],["何部長佩珊：所以船員法裡面有定期契約，目前現行是定期契約，目前沒有不定期契約範本，他們現在正在研擬。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，剛剛我有講喔！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我會請……"],["涂委員權吉：航港局回復它沒有定義喔！"],["何部長佩珊：我們可以把它的不定期契約範本提供給你，好嗎？委員……"],["涂委員權吉：不是，部長……"],["何部長佩珊：定期契約或不定期契約，如果……"],["涂委員權吉：部長，這個影片跟剛剛我們問的，我相信大家都看得非常非常清楚，你直接就回復，我問你僱傭關係的契約性質，定期跟不定期到底是怎麼界定，你從頭到尾都說跟勞動部沒有關係，你說這是船員法，你還跟我講船員法是特別法……"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["涂委員權吉：航港局也直接表示……"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！船員法第十三條……"],["涂委員權吉：船員法從頭到尾就不定義定期契約跟不定期契約，而且還直接表示這個在勞基法第九條就已經有載明，所有勞動契約的主管機關，中央為勞動部，地方為縣市政府，我不知道部長現在在爭什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：不是委員，我唸船員法第十二條給您聽：「雇用人僱用船員，應簽訂書面僱傭契約，送請航政機關備查後，受僱船員始得在船上服務。僱傭契約終止時，亦同。」第十三條：「雇用人僱用船員僱傭契約範本，由航政機關定之。」所以這個僱傭的關係……"],["涂委員權吉：這個我知道。"],["何部長佩珊：它裡面定期或不定期都是船員法去界定的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長，我跟你講……"],["何部長佩珊：目前船員法……"],["涂委員權吉：這個我告訴你，他們怎麼跟……假設今天這是中鋼運通，船員跟中鋼運通怎麼簽定期或不定期，那是他跟企業的事情，但是今天我問你的是已經發生糾紛了，勞動部是主管機關，你就要有這個擔當，不是把這個球推回航港局，航港局就跟你表示它不是主管機關，不是由它認定的啊！"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，我跟您報告……"],["涂委員權吉：結果你把球踢回去，航港局就表示這不是由它認定，是勞動部認定的啊！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我跟您報告，第一個，該直接去處理的是高雄市政府勞工局，如果沒有的話，他們現在在民事法院訴訟中，而且已經打到最高法院去了，這兩個……"],["涂委員權吉：我剛剛有講勞動局沒錯啊！"],["何部長佩珊：對，可是高雄市政府……"],["涂委員權吉：我們有講中央是勞動部，地方是縣市政府啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["涂委員權吉：可是你明確告訴我說這已經是勞資糾紛，僱傭關係的契約性質我問你如何界定定期跟不定期，你連界定都不敢界定，統統推給法院。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，界定不是我們的權力。"],["涂委員權吉：以後你們行政單位所有事情都推給法院，統統不用處理了。"],["何部長佩珊：界定真的不是我的權力，我必須尊重司法，尊重法院的見解。"],["涂委員權吉：這個勞基法已經寫得很清楚了，所以航港局的回復，我就說那很簡單啊！"],["何部長佩珊：所以委員……"],["涂委員權吉：不然就是航港局說謊，不然就是部長說謊，這麼簡單。"],["何部長佩珊：我們沒有誰說謊啦，我們講的都是事實，因為勞基法是普通法。"],["涂委員權吉：你們講的就不一致啊！"],["何部長佩珊：不是！委員，勞基法是普通法。"],["涂委員權吉：然後碰到問題，大家都說沒說謊，還是立委說謊？"],["何部長佩珊：我一再強調，勞基法是普通法，船員必須適用船員法，這個特別法優先，所以船員法的規定會比勞基法更優先適用。"],["涂委員權吉：你那時候講船員法是特別法，那勞基法是什麼法？"],["何部長佩珊：普通法。"],["涂委員權吉：那我問你，基本上，本來就是後法優於前法，勞基法應該也是特別法啊！"],["何部長佩珊：勞基法是普通法。"],["涂委員權吉：勞基法是特別法還是普通法？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為所有的法院都認定，他必須以船員法的特別法……"],["涂委員權吉：副司長，勞基法是特別法還是普通法？"],["黃副司長琦雅：船員法是特別法，只要船員法規定的……"],["涂委員權吉：船員法是特別法，勞基法是什麼法？"],["黃副司長琦雅：依照勞動基準法第一條規定……"],["涂委員權吉：勞基法是什麼法？"],["黃副司長琦雅：勞動基準法是適用僱傭關係的普通法，勞基法第一條明文規定……"],["涂委員權吉：所以你講勞基法不是特別法，對不對？"],["黃副司長琦雅：是，船員法是勞基法的特別法。"],["涂委員權吉：好，船員法是特別法，勞基法不是特別法，那重點後法本來就是優於前法，當然是勞基法比船員法大啊！今天他發生爭議的時候，你怎麼全部推光光，然後……"],["黃副司長琦雅：跟委員報告，勞基法第一條就明文規定，如果有特別法的話，要依特別法，這是勞基法第一條的明文規定。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我希望、我相信，現在我們要講一個明確的問題，很簡單，航港局的回復剛剛我們也講得很清楚了，部長的回復跟它的回復根本就是完全相反的，所以我希望航港局跟部長給我們一個明確的答案，我不希望本席在這邊質詢的時候，部長給我們的答案跟我們跟航港局要的回復是完全不一樣的，我真的很想講，我不知道為什麼我還聽到之前執政黨的立委說，你們勞動部有藐視國會的情形，所以我希望這個事情能夠讓我們了解清楚，而且我認為這很明確啦，部長你的答復跟航港局的回復根本是天壤之別，完全是相反的，然後你說是一致的，我看不出哪裡一致，完全都是不一樣的！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，本來我們兩個部會在這部分的認知有差距，是這樣。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！問題是我們得到的答案都是不一樣的，你怎麼協調那是以後的事，現在你給我們的答復就是不一樣的。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長回去溝通好再跟他說明啦。","跟涂委員報告一下，如果要提藐視國會是要提案的，沒那麼簡單。好，謝謝涂委員。","接續我們請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b1cb7121e6b7d49806b4c0e929d5f577f1d1511f83239464210cd3a5187eac2bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"13:46:45 - 13:53:12","影片長度":"00:06:27","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:46:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:53:12+08:00","duration":387,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.1234687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.52846875,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.5572187500000005,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.070968750000002,"end":18.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.26846875,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.56784375,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.765968750000003,"end":25.934093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.204093750000002,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.16596875,"end":27.773468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.39784375,"end":29.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.950343750000002,"end":31.688468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.51534375,"end":38.877218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.56909375,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.56034375,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.85534375,"end":45.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.59346875,"end":46.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.84221875,"end":49.204718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.18346875,"end":50.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.88784375,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.11471875,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.49846875,"end":62.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.33346875,"end":64.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.84784375000001,"end":67.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.63221875,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.42846875000001,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.40221875,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.79846875000001,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.59096875,"end":96.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.57284375,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.90596875,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.83659375,"end":111.00096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.42284375000001,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.53221875000001,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.82721875,"end":118.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.51034375,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.45534375000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.70409375000001,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.75034375000001,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.84221875000001,"end":134.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.33471875,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.02534375000002,"end":155.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.31034375000002,"end":161.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.40221875,"end":165.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.76034375,"end":195.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.54471875000002,"end":203.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.96534375000002,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.48721875,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.09846875,"end":293.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.65596875,"end":329.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.58284375,"end":355.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.21846875,"end":341.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.79846875000004,"end":362.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.67471875,"end":363.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.77159375,"end":368.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.78846875000005,"end":365.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.96534375000005,"end":368.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.15909375,"end":368.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.91409375,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.16596875000005,"end":379.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.51596875,"end":380.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.74784375,"end":381.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.25409375000004,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.24096875000004,"end":387.02534375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":17.675,"text":"其他的官員內席的話沒有請你們上來並非不尊重而是人數太多敬請原諒但是本席在建議的我也希望能夠聆聽進去然後能做的就做好不好來"},{"start":19.292,"end":38.477,"text":"好部長我知道大家都很辛苦但是我們針對問題談問題第一過去的時代通通稱呼老人老人啊最後覺得老人啊有所以言其事說改為英華族英華族啦那現在很難得可以談到是壯世代那一來言語鼓勵"},{"start":48.561,"end":74.321,"text":"二來是對一些壯時代的一個鼓舞作用其目的為什麼要壯世代因為他老來友誼啊也就是一直何部長你從習明謙部長跟到現在你都一直在提倡壯世代的第二村的就業"},{"start":76.075,"end":97.044,"text":"這個成果是可以看得出來的啊但是代表什麼時代不一樣壯世代是可以用的但是我看到今天啊我們有一些委員同仁還有部長在打詢就是這個政策你支持這個法令暫時不支持我同意"},{"start":97.944,"end":119.732,"text":"但是要把成績做出來那事實上以現在看起來兩個最重要的要先行去推行一行政院辦公室既然認同院長卓院長也成立一個辦公室那第二個很重要的就是勞動部第二個"},{"start":120.931,"end":143.399,"text":"衛福部,這些東西是非常重要所以我要建議為什麼要請你們三位來一是管政策二是管執行那你們單位是在管執行啊其他單位是配合啊那配合要不要配合當然要配合你們兩位兩個部會成績做出來後面就好跟啊"},{"start":144.139,"end":161.357,"text":"教育部的好跟在金融機構的好跟就跟著這個模型來做所以你們兩個部會是最重要的所以至於法令如何要不要定其實我是建議部長你要跟行政院建議啦"},{"start":163.299,"end":179.718,"text":"這個法令的定定是吳春城委員他非常你看連署這麼多人三黨通通連署為什麼這就是共識嘛那你們也可以提版本那也不急於一時現在就談法律問題但是談實際問題"},{"start":183.562,"end":203.348,"text":"也就是你把成績把成果把它做出來壯世代是未來的趨勢我們已經先做了這個也是在幫行政機關啊在做事欸所以不要去計較這些所以我還是要拜託我們何部長既然你們現在已經在做認真的去推"},{"start":204.068,"end":216.715,"text":"第2個衛福部該做本來老人業務本來英華族的業務本來他的福利本來就是你們衛福部要做的所以你們兩個部會一定要去擔當那行政院既然"},{"start":219.777,"end":238.679,"text":"不管是陳建寧院長現在卓榮泰院長有這個制度你們為什麼三大企圖不好好運用一下那才來擴大各部會這個案子才推得會成功這個案子才會去落實所以我也要拜託何部長"},{"start":240.06,"end":265.026,"text":"這種東西你不要怕法令法令是對我們有幫助的如果到最後推行整個壯世代遇到困難你非得法令來解決嘛所以現在我要拜託兩個部會一個是衛福部一個是勞動部一個是就業問題一個是福利問題你們要先行推行把它做了一個非常嚴滿"},{"start":267.567,"end":293.04,"text":"讓人家看到我們賴政府的壯世代政策是起飛的是起步的是肯定的要這樣做不要去排除法令的問題法令你們也可以提啊你們認為這55歲或者不明確的問題你們可以提啊我們大家都可以來共商所以我要建議何部長你們的努力我們看到"},{"start":293.76,"end":313.931,"text":"那個衛福部的努力邱部長這裡我們也看到但是我要拜託行政院你在作證政策指導的時候要很明確不要去排除其他的這些無謂政治的名稱跟無謂政治的說啊這三兩個功能不需要"},{"start":314.531,"end":329.171,"text":"因為最後壯世代是一定要去落實因為這個高年齡化確實是一定要去面對所以何部長簡單你認為本席給你建議的你的看法"},{"start":329.651,"end":344.128,"text":"是委員我們方向一致啦現在行政院我們勞動部就在執行行政院所交辦的壯世代發展促進方案現在就有了那麼即將也要跟院報告對所以其實這個行政措施都在做了"},{"start":345.209,"end":367.226,"text":"所以我們因為可是我們就是說我們肯定這個概念甚至我們行政措施也做可是就是說我們要把它上綱到基本法這樣的知識這個基本法我個人的看法我也同意你的看法啦不一定急著今天要推啦但是你們的成果要把它做出來嘛啊就是現在已經在做了是是是要做得更精密好不好要更落實來來廢物部"},{"start":369.983,"end":370.924,"text":"謝謝林委員謝謝部長、次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1187,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（13時46分）謝謝主席，大家辛苦了，我們請勞動部何部長、衛福部次長、行政院辦公室代表。"],["主席：部長請。"],["林委員國成：其他列席官員，沒有請你們上來，並非不尊重，而是人數太多，敬請原諒，但是本席建議的，我也希望你們能夠聆聽進去，然後能做的就做。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["林委員國成：部長，我知道大家都很辛苦，但是我們針對問題談問題，第一，過去的時代通通稱呼老人，最後覺得稱為老人有語言歧視，改為銀髮族，現在很難得可以談到壯世代，一來言語鼓勵，二來是對壯世代的鼓舞作用，其目的，為什麼要壯世代？因為他老來有餘。何部長，從許銘春部長到現在，你們都一直在提倡壯世代的第二春就業，成果是可以看得出來的，這代表什麼？時代不一樣，壯世代是可以用的。但是我看到今天我們有一些委員同仁，還有部長在答詢，就是這個政策你支持，但暫時不支持這個法令，我同意，但是要把成績做出來。事實上，以現在看起來，兩個最重要的要先去推行，第一，行政院辦公室既然認同，卓院長也成立一個辦公室，第二個很重要的就是勞動部，再來就是衛福部，這些東西是非常重要，所以我要建議，為什麼要請你們三位來？一是管政策，二是管執行，你們單位是在管執行，其他單位是配合，要不要配合？當然要配合！你們兩位、兩個部會成績做出來後面就好跟，教育部也好跟，金融機構也好跟，就跟著這個模型來做，所以你們兩個部會是最重要的，至於法令要不要訂，我是建議部長，你要跟行政院建議，這個法令的訂定是吳春城委員非常……你看連署這麼多人，三黨通通連署，為什麼？這就是共識嘛，你們也可以提版本，也不急於一時現在就談法律問題，但是要談實際問題，也就是你把成績、把成果做出來，壯世代是未來的趨勢，我們已經先做了，這個也是在幫行政機關做事，所以不要去計較這些。","我還是要拜託何部長，既然你們現在已經在做，就認真地去推；第二個，衛福部該做的，本來老人業務、銀髮族的業務，他們的相關福利本來就是你們衛福部要做的，所以你們兩個部會一定要去擔當。而行政院不管是陳建仁院長還是現在的卓榮泰院長，有這個制度，你們三大巨頭為什麼不好好運用一下？再來擴大到各部會，這個案子才推得成功，這個案子才會去落實。所以我也要拜託何部長，你不要怕法令，法令是對我們有幫助的，如果到最後推行整個壯世代遇到困難，你就非得用法令來解決嘛！","所以現在我要拜託兩個部會，一個是衛福部，一個是勞動部，一個是就業問題，一個是福利問題，你們要先行推行，把它做得非常圓滿，讓人家看到賴政府的壯世代政策是起飛的、是起步的、是肯定的，要這樣做，不要去排除法令的問題，法令你們也可以提啊，你們認為55歲或者有不明確的問題等等，你們也可以提，我們大家都可以來共商，所以我要建議何部長，你們的努力，我們有看到，衛福部的努力、邱部長這裡，我們也有看到。但是我要拜託行政院，你在做政策指導的時候要很明確，不要去排除其他這些無謂政治的名稱，跟無謂政治的，如這是誰的功勞等等，不需要，因為最後壯世代是一定要去落實的，因為高齡化確實是一定要去面對的。所以何部長，請簡單回應，你認為本席給你建議的事項，你的看法如何？"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，我們方向一致，現在我們勞動部就在執行行政院所交辦的壯世代發展促進方案，現在就有了，那麼即將也要跟院報告……"],["林委員國成：是，我知道、我知道。"],["何部長佩珊：所以其實這個行政措施都在做了。我們肯定這個概念，甚至我們行政措施也做，可是如果要把它上綱到基本法，這茲事體大。"],["林委員國成：沒有啦，有關這個基本法，我個人的看法，我也同意你的看法，不一定急著今天要推，但是你們的成果要把它做出來嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：就是現在已經在做了，以後再跟委員報告好嗎？"],["林委員國成：好，要做得更精密啦！好不好？要更落實。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["林委員國成：請衛福部簡單回應。"],["呂次長建德：我想一樣，誠如何部長剛才所說，我們目前其實也已經都有現有的方案，我們會來擴大這個效果，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：行政院呢？"],["蘇處長永富：這部分會朝這個方向來處理。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長、次長。","接續我們請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156178","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156178","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b4f13b684c4ec65fe982770301154c67d1d1511f832394642f1150b2f0eab0c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"14:05:08 - 14:10:22","影片長度":"00:05:14","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:05:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:10:22+08:00","duration":314,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.615343750000001,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.42471875,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":21.614093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.035968750000002,"end":22.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.91346875,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.70659375,"end":28.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.039093750000003,"end":52.461593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.675968750000003,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.570343750000003,"end":31.772843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.71471875,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.20784375,"end":56.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.19596875,"end":115.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.38409375,"end":133.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.68096875,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.26221875000002,"end":140.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.27909375000002,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.95409375,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.00784375,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.80471875,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.42471875,"end":153.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.28096875,"end":196.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.15409375000002,"end":157.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.77721875,"end":167.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.82034375,"end":187.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.02971875,"end":197.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.17721875,"end":221.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.98784375000002,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.63221875000002,"end":231.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.11284375000002,"end":255.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.76471875000001,"end":245.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.38784375000003,"end":254.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.44659375000003,"end":261.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.13784375,"end":288.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.39409375,"end":269.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.02409375,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.48784375,"end":289.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.05284375,"end":299.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.22909375,"end":298.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.00096875,"end":307.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.54096875000005,"end":301.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.14784375,"end":305.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.45971875000004,"end":309.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.29909375,"end":314.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.41284375000004,"end":310.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.79659375,"end":314.96909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.506,"end":19.237,"text":"主席好,接下來想有請教育部次長教育部張廖次長是"},{"start":21.187,"end":37.944,"text":"委員好是次長好這個最近國發會所公布的那個報告其實確實帶給國人一個警訊那麼要讓我們了解讓我們了解到了2070年我們臺灣的人口只剩下這個1500萬"},{"start":39.986,"end":63.966,"text":"比現在大概要少了800多萬人之多那當然現在這個少子化的問題它確實已經影響到衝擊到了我們的教育系統那今天本席在另外未還委員會那邊這個正好是吳春成委員他推動的壯世代政策法案那麼裡面呢本席有特別有提到就是"},{"start":64.967,"end":84.25,"text":"在壯世代如何可以帶給教育系統另外一個契機?」那麼這個議題少子化跟壯世代議題我認為是相輔相成的那麼尤其是我們可以看到就是在這個人口年齡結構當中未來幼年跟青壯人口是持續下降"},{"start":85.971,"end":104.436,"text":"65歲以上的銀髮族人口是往上提升。」那麼所以這邊會讓我們去思考那面對現在少子化的問題我們教育系統是如何因應那麼我知道其實這個少子化問題其實早就在國高中小學已經發生了所以之前有很多流浪"},{"start":105.436,"end":132.863,"text":"教師,那現在呢這個流浪教師的影響已經升級到大學所以我們這些年來大概也出現了流浪教授那麼高學歷的人才是找不到工作那麼在這邊的話本席想請教教育部看到我們現在的大學學生的招生缺額的情況越來越嚴重可是呢我本席感到很有趣的"},{"start":133.943,"end":161.204,"text":"我也看到一個現象就是教育部也同意一些學校不斷的外加名額對尤其是在大學部跟研究所的部分都有外加名額他其實他一定會影響到就是整個的這個學生聲援的分配的問題還有私立大學的學生現在招不到這也是個事關於這部分我跟委員做一個報告就分兩部分一部分就是說少子化的衝擊是難免就是說整個"},{"start":162.165,"end":181.293,"text":"看起來那個私立學校的退場已經成為一個無法避免的結構嘛那但是呢對委員關心這個非常好就是說其實在我們現在外加名的部分其實本來是針對一些比較國家重點產業他需要的一些人才所以在碩博士裡面在學士班都有開那"},{"start":182.834,"end":210.194,"text":"過去確實因為當時是因為配合國家政策所以就找國立大學來協助但是也有考慮到委員所關心的這個現象所以在113年度就今年度8月開始其實已經有做一些調整我來講一下就是說就是113學年度起公立大學以培育高階碩博士為主那學士班是以體質良好且這個教學品質比較佳的私立大學為主要來培育"},{"start":211.034,"end":218.48,"text":"這個比例就有差113年在碩博士方面公立學校大概是佔了大概15%學士大概5%明年度114年度學士的部分私立佔更多謝謝次長的說明現在是這樣子的就是因為我們知道如果說公立大學的招生員額還是維持現在的規模"},{"start":240.615,"end":247.099,"text":"他勢必也會影響到之後私立大學的招生的情況以現在來講15萬人到了2070了接下來的5年之後我們還有這麼多的學生嗎?"},{"start":256.525,"end":268.873,"text":"那麼本席是建議就是教育部要去研擬一個方案就是我們的公立大學是不是也要開始逐漸的要去縮減整個的這個學生的名額還有分配那這樣的話為後面的這個應該是說私立大學他的招生元額才不會缺"},{"start":278.999,"end":287.223,"text":"否則的話,如果說我們公立大學的學生的結構不改變的話,那一定未來會有更多的私立大學沒有辦法繼續生存。」"},{"start":300.69,"end":303.715,"text":"公立大學與私立大學學生生源結構研修報告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":875,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（14時5分）主席好，接下來有請教育部次長。"],["主席：教育部張廖次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長好。最近國發會所公布的報告確實帶給國人一個警訊，讓我們瞭解到2070年臺灣的人口只剩下1,500萬，比現在大概要少了八百多萬人之多。當然，現在少子化的問題，它確實已經影響到、衝擊到我們的教育系統，今天本席另外在衛環委員會那邊，正好是吳春城委員推動了壯世代政策法案。裡面本席特別提到，壯世代如何可以帶給教育系統另外一個契機？這個少子化跟壯世代的議題，我認為是相輔相成的，尤其是我們可以看到，在整個人口年齡結構當中，未來幼年跟青壯人口是持續下降的，只有65歲以上的銀髮族人口是往上提升的。所以這邊會讓我們去思考，面對現在少子化的問題，我們教育系統是如何因應？我知道這個少子化問題其實早就在國、高中、小學已經發生了，所以之前有很多流浪教師，現在這個流浪教師的影響已經升級到大學，所以我們這些年來大概也出現了流浪教授、高學歷的人才找不到工作。這邊本席想請教，教育部看到我們現在的大學學生招生缺額的情況愈來愈嚴重，可是本席看到也感到很有趣的現象是，教育部也同意一些學校不斷地外加名額。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我知道委員關心的。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，大學部跟研究所的部分都有外加名額，那一定會影響到整個學生生源分配的問題，還有私立大學的學生現在已經招不到，這也是個事實。"],["張廖次長萬堅：關鍵部分我跟委員做個報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這要分兩部分，一部分是少子化的衝擊是難免的，也就是說整個看起來私立學校的退場已經成為一個無法避免的結構。"],["翁委員曉玲：是一個趨勢。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員關心的這個非常好，就是說，其實在外加名額的部分，本來是針對一些國家重點產業所需要的人才，所以才在碩博士裡面、在學士班都有開。過去確實是為了配合國家政策，所以會找國立大學協助，但是也有考慮到委員所關心的這個現象，所以在今（113）年度8月開始已經有做了一些調整。","113學年度起，公立大學以培育高階碩博士為主，學士班以體質良好且教學品質比較佳的私立大學為主來培育。這個比例就有差了，113年在碩博士方面，公立學校大概占了15%，學士大概5%；明（114）年度學士的部分，私立的占更多，公立剩下3%而已。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝次長的說明，現在是這樣的，我們知道如果公立大學的招生員額還是維持現在的規模，它勢必也會影響到之後私立大學招生的情況。以現在來講是15萬人，就算不要說到2070年，到了接下來的5年之後，我們還有這麼多的學生嗎？本席建議教育部要研擬一個方案，就是我們的公立大學是不是也要開始逐漸地去縮減學生的名額還有分配。"],["張廖次長萬堅：精兵制。"],["翁委員曉玲：這樣的話，私立大學的招生員額才不會缺；否則的話，公立大學學生的結構如果不改變的話，後來一定會有更多的私立大學沒有辦法繼續生存下去。"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有錯，這個我們會做通盤檢討，如果有詳細的結果，會跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我也希望教育部是不是可以2個禮拜或是1個月給我一份你們對於公立大學及私立大學生源結構的研析報告，好不好？關於我們如何來調整這樣的環境。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們1個月內來跟委員做報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，麻煩1個月之內給我一份報告。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝，請回座。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純不在。","賴士葆、賴士葆、賴士葆不在。","林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲不在。","下一位質詢請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156177","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156177","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bddf2a7192c7051b5982770301154c67d1d1511f8323946426511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"14:00:07 - 14:04:59","影片長度":"00:04:52","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T14:00:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T14:04:59+08:00","duration":292,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.070968750000002,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.90471875,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.92159375,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.02284375,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.90034375,"end":27.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.33471875,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.24846875,"end":41.509718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.08346875,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.42534375000001,"end":68.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.77971875,"end":74.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.37784375000001,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.07159375,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.48971875000001,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.71721875,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.82409375,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.64159375,"end":148.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.29471875000002,"end":154.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.04471875000002,"end":182.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.88846875000002,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.27471875,"end":206.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.42034375,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.64096875,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.55096875,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.74909375000001,"end":238.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.18346875,"end":244.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.25846875000002,"end":245.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.93346875,"end":255.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.63659375,"end":265.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.59284375000004,"end":292.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.80034375,"end":288.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.97284375000004,"end":291.02346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.106,"end":16.594,"text":"音樂情為之訊。有請我們的國家發展委員會主委"},{"start":24.946,"end":26.268,"text":"主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":39.298,"end":67.308,"text":"改變我們少子化的課題這幾天我想國家發展委員會的人口推估的報告已經出來了大家都很熱烈討論從2020年事實上我們已經走到生不如死40多年後人口老化甚至會超過日本2070年我們可能會全台不到1500萬的人扶養比可能到1比1左右所以想問一下"},{"start":68.468,"end":90.389,"text":"你的看法,你同意這樣的說法嗎?過去幾年的少子化對策是不是失敗的?這個很難界定,但是我舉個例子,去年我們有一萬多個小孩子是因為我們對於這個不孕症的補助而生出來的小孩有一萬多位"},{"start":91.29,"end":92.751,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":115.56,"end":141.734,"text":"更低於去年所以就想來跟你討論一下一些問題我覺得失敗的原因在哪邊呢問題一呢台灣一直事實上是缺乏專責機構事實上我沒有成立少子化辦公室僅開過一次會那就是2017年那就停擺了可是相較於日本的話所以我覺得行政院人事行政總處做的報告還比你們還"},{"start":142.754,"end":162.223,"text":"比較精準掌握現在日本的狀況,你們都還停留在2007年日本的狀態,去年他們成立了兒童家庭廳,反而我們事實上沒有去思考到這個問題。我們看瑞典的經驗,怎麼去讓少子化可以減緩呢?落實兒權公約,然後性平,然後第三個事實上支持父母成為父母"},{"start":162.563,"end":190.36,"text":"和我們現在連專責機構都沒有,因為要去統整統合。第二個是加碼的補助,不變的負擔,固定的學費,高額的雜費。對,現在政府事實上是給育兒津貼也加碼了,有準工,學費非常的低。不過也可以看這錢到底到誰的手上?大概都到業者的手上去。補多少,漲多少,甚至政府如果要漲的話,業者先知道的話,搞不好他漲的比你還高。"},{"start":190.822,"end":205.149,"text":"所以政府的錢大概到口袋裡邊去那基本上幫不上家嗎還有很重要的就是房價因為趕不上我們進度的居住正義這也是家長如果沒有辦法安居那就沒有辦法熱業所以這也是一個問題第二個"},{"start":208.459,"end":235.821,"text":"我們對於兒童身心健全成長缺乏支持現在行人地域我們交通死傷在兒少也是最高的那如果事故傷害居高不下是兒少1到14歲死傷最高其中交通最高的話那我們大概即便生下來還是面對到死亡那還有我們的身心健康這狀況每況愈下而且自殺已經是到第二名那這個"},{"start":239.281,"end":254.36,"text":"狀態裡邊又再加上我們的網路安全這是一個很大問題有網路工程甚至網路安全的這個課題又跟自殺有相近的關係來下一頁那隔離近的日本也是跟我們遇到同樣的社會問題"},{"start":255.821,"end":276.897,"text":"少子女化嚴重、貧窮、虐待、幸福感低弱,可是他已經改方向了,往下,因為他們去年事實上人口是有成長的,他們有專責單位,所以我不知道人事總處這邊副處長也在,我不知道支不支持,就是我們有一個專責的單位,是不是可以去做努力了,那再下一頁,那"},{"start":278.138,"end":290.23,"text":"希望能夠催生到營造兒童的友善社會能夠落實是不是比照日本有一個兒童基本法精神所以我覺得這是不是可以再去研究一個是成立專責單位一個是落實兒童基本法謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":855,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（14時）有請國家發展委員會主委。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：主委好。今天主題是我們想參採國外來討論一下能不能改制的可行性，然後組織再造，甚至是改變我們少子化的課題。這幾天國家發展委員會人口推估的報告已經出來了，大家都很熱烈討論。從2020年事實上我們已經走到生不如死，四十多年後人口老化甚至會超過日本，2070年全臺可能不到1,500萬人，扶養比可能會到1比1左右，所以想問你的看法，你同意這樣的說法嗎？過去幾年的少子化對策是不是失敗的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個很難界定，但是我舉個例子，去年我們有一萬多個小孩子是因為我們對不孕症的補助而生出來的。"],["林委員月琴：可是今年是龍年，為什麼今年龍年到9月才9萬？今年到底能不能到13萬？過往都是龍年和虎年平均下來是其他年的數字。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["林委員月琴：龍年會很高，虎年會很低，可是去年兔年的時候事實上看不出來，因為前年虎年還有13萬9,000，去年事實上是13萬5,000，然後節節往下去，今年龍年可能更低於去年，所以就想來跟你討論一些問題。我覺得失敗的原因在哪邊呢？","問題一，臺灣一直缺乏專責機構，事實上我們有成立少子化辦公室卻僅在2017年開過一次會，之後就停擺了。可是相較於日本，我覺得行政院人事行政總處做的報告還比你們更能精準掌握現在日本的狀況，你們的還停留在2007年日本的狀態，去年他們成立了兒童家庭廳，反而我們沒有去思考到這個問題。我們看到瑞典的經驗，怎麼讓少子化可以減緩呢？落實兒權公約，然後是性平，然後第三個是支持父母成為父母，可是我們現在連專責機構都沒有，這要怎麼去統整、統合？","第二個是加碼的補助。不變的負擔，固定的學費、高額的雜費，現在政府是給了育兒津貼，也加碼了準公，學費非常低。不過也可以看到，這個錢到底會到誰的手上？大概都到業者的手上了，補多少漲多少，甚至政府如果要漲，而業者先知道的話，搞不好它漲得比你還高，所以政府的錢大概都到他們口袋裡邊去，基本上幫不上家長的忙。","還有很重要的就是房價，因為趕不上進度的居住正義，這也是家長如果沒有辦法安居，那就沒有辦法樂業，所以這也是一個問題。","第二個問題，我們對於兒童身心健全成長缺乏支持。現在行人地獄，交通死傷在兒少也是最高的，如果事故傷害居高不下，1歲到14歲死傷以交通為最高的話，我們大概即便生下來，還是要面對到死亡，身心健康狀況也每況愈下，而且自殺已經到了第二名。這個狀態再加上網路安全就是一個很大的問題，網路工程甚至網路安全的課題又跟自殺有相近的關係。","鄰近的日本也跟我們一樣遇到了同樣的社會問題，像少子女化嚴重，貧窮、虐待、幸福感低落，可是他們已經改方向了，因為他們去年人口事實上是有成長的。他們有專責單位，所以我不知道人事行政總處這邊，副處長也在，不知道你支不支持，我們有一個專責的單位，是不是可以去做努力？","希望能夠從催生到營造兒童的友善社會，能夠落實……是不是比照日本，有一個兒童基本法的精神，所以我覺得這個是不是可以再去研究？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：一個是成立專責單位，一個是落實兒童基本法，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的質詢。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：主委先回座。","下一位李坤城、李坤城、李坤城不在。","下一位質詢請翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156176","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156176","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b575c097a556f129e6b4c0e929d5f577f76d287313e08c4b3d02345ff075ccb485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"13:40:31 - 13:46:22","影片長度":"00:05:51","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:40:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:46:22+08:00","duration":351,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.68471875,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.37784375,"end":50.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.30159375,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.26534375,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.71096875,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.96596875,"end":155.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.04034375,"end":157.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.09909375,"end":167.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.17346875,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.27784375000002,"end":177.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.56846875000002,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.34409375,"end":184.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.26784375000003,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.37659375,"end":202.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.90221875,"end":208.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.58909375000002,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.70159375,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.51096875000002,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.97034375,"end":228.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.34534375,"end":230.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.26909375000002,"end":241.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.94721875000002,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.38971875000001,"end":244.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.70159375000003,"end":248.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.27471875,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.70909375000002,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.17284375000003,"end":256.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.64909375,"end":258.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.43346875000003,"end":261.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.57659375000003,"end":272.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.41034375000004,"end":281.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.74221875,"end":282.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.80534375,"end":283.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.59846875,"end":286.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.29409375,"end":287.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.25596875,"end":303.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.74284375,"end":306.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.24034375,"end":311.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.08346875,"end":312.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.58534375,"end":319.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.89659375,"end":338.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.47596875000005,"end":345.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.47909375,"end":345.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.82034375,"end":349.63034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.924,"end":2.364,"text":"教育部、文化部"},{"start":22.877,"end":29.279,"text":"這兩個我想今天有點時間但是國發會、農業部、交通部都是我在這個今天這個議題重視在和產業發展促進法裡面會關注的一些焦點所以謝謝張偉今天有這樣一個議題首先這個勞動部長您比較辛苦因為現在的這個職司大概跟勞動部跟衛福部感覺上在這個區塊佔的比例非常大所以您今天一整天在"},{"start":50.746,"end":53.747,"text":"賴慎祥委員提出一個類比在法規上的類比跟一個世界趨勢的進步其實我覺得他這個想法非常的好但是您在回答他是從這個殘障福利法"},{"start":73.191,"end":73.652,"text":"臺灣第一臺灣不因令風潮"},{"start":93.453,"end":93.773,"text":"﹚林倩綺"},{"start":117.881,"end":142.308,"text":"國發會這邊在討論就業市場還有這個整個國家發展等等的缺工的這個問題所以其實這整個東西其實應該一起來思考那壯世代提供這樣一個突破瓶頸的概念所以這是為什麼我們在這邊討論的所以在衛福的這個部分我來跟衛福部請益一下你有沒有覺得在過往的這個思維跟你們目前的整個政策狀態應該對於所謂的"},{"start":146.004,"end":167.465,"text":"您們現在有的年齡的所謂高齡的社會您們應該做的都是一種照顧的概念那我想壯世代提出來的是一種發展的概念也就是我想各位光是在座我們壯世代的比例應該佔的很高percentage一定一半以上吧我們每個人都是壯世代的人不管你們同不同意我們大概"},{"start":168.166,"end":191.305,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":191.685,"end":192.586,"text":"在2014年已經有一個活力自立生活計劃"},{"start":209.342,"end":225.097,"text":"在日本201616已經啟動了社會5.0那他也不一定是照護那這個思維就是說很重要就是發展那很多我們這個年紀的人還沒有到一定被你們照顧的階段好不好所以這是一個思維上的調整跟改變"},{"start":226.138,"end":227.458,"text":"接下來文化部不好意思你們今天"},{"start":250.866,"end":277.868,"text":"我們中間是司長文化部本席其實在上個會期已經建議你們將壯世代納入文化幣的發放對象但是你們也目前經費裡面沒有看到當然你們會有很多的想法但是我這邊提醒你們如果有機會把壯世代放進去它其實是可以對文化市場創造乘數效果它跟對於你們目前在年齡的這個區塊"},{"start":279.589,"end":301.927,"text":"獲得的補助其實是不一樣的概念最後 教育部教育部不好意思我要跟你們講那個列寧大學我們這個世代的人都被你們當成是這個什麼終身教育但是不要用這句話騙我們你們終身教育所目前的總經費大概只有36.15億喔那在你整體的教育經費裡面1.98%"},{"start":304.787,"end":312.349,"text":"那整個我們不要講壯世代光是高齡的人口你覺得這個比例跟現在國發會算出來的比例平衡嗎?"},{"start":313.835,"end":337.724,"text":"這個回去要跟部裡面反映今天你們次長是在另外一個委員會然後派這個終身教育這從這個派的成績你不覺得好像對於壯世代難道我們真的沒有歧視嗎?對於高齡人口我們真的沒有歧視嗎?我想壯世代這樣一個法令的定定其實是想要告訴我們社會的實際現象是什麼?我們心裡沒有看到的自我現象是什麼?"},{"start":338.544,"end":344.594,"text":"所以我很期待這樣一個法令當然能夠用正面的思維去看待他我相信他能夠解決很多社會的問題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1175,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（13時40分）謝謝召委、立院同仁，還有行政單位的相關夥伴們，大家好。我先請勞動部部長、衛福部次長，當然每個部會我都有相關的議題想要討論，但先請教育部、文化部，這兩個我想今天有一點時間，國發會、農業部、交通部都是我在今天這個議題──壯世代政策與產業發展促進法裡面會關注的一些焦點，所以謝謝召委今天安排這樣一個議題。","首先，勞動部長，你比較辛苦，因為現在的職司大概跟勞動部、衛福部感覺上在這個區塊占的比例非常大，所以您今天一整天跟很多委員的詢答上，我這邊有一些想法來跟您做一些討論，其實每個單位都一樣。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員倩綺：我記得廖先翔委員在早上提出一個在法規上的類比跟世界趨勢的進步，其實我覺得他這個想法非常好，但是您回答他是從殘障福利法，世界趨勢有這樣一個名詞來做回應，那我覺得思維上可以再調整一下，這就是為什麼我們今天在這邊討論所謂壯世代這樣一個目前聽起來是新概念，而且我們要繼續往這個方向走的原因。所以我們不是常常說Taiwan can help，臺灣第一，那我們為什麼不引領風潮？當然我們知道執行面有很多需要解決，但是如果我們出現了這樣一個壯世代，而且不僅是因地制宜，也可能引領世界的風潮，所以我覺得這個思維大家可以這樣子想一下。還有委員也有提醒，洪孟楷委員說今天我們在討論的，這邊在討論壯世代，其他地方在討論少子化，然後還有國發會也在討論就業市場，以及整個國家發展等等的缺工問題，這整個其實應該一起來思考，那壯世代提供這樣一個突破瓶頸的概念，這也是為什麼我們要來這邊討論。","所以在衛福的部分，我來跟衛福部請益一下，你有沒有覺得在過往的思維跟你們目前整個政策狀態，應該對於你們現在所謂高齡社會，應該做的都是一種照顧的概念，那我想壯世代提出來的是一種發展的概念，也就是我想各位光是在座壯世代的比例應該占很高的比例，一定一半以上吧！我們每個人都是壯世代的人，不管你們同不同意，我們大概可能在這個上下，雖然也有一些質詢的委員說，他還不知道怎麼定義，所以我們每個人都身歷其間，它也是一個正在發生的事實。在國發會的報告上，我想早上很多人提過了，比例上這是一個不爭的事實，而且我們的高齡社會又提早來到，那2070年又更離譜了，會到幾乎一半以上，一個人要養一個人，所以我們如果不在這個時候趕快做因應，那等到我們看到這個情形基本上都已經來不及了。所以衛福部這邊，歐盟在2014年已經有一個活力自立生活計畫，日本在2016年已經啟動了社會5.0，它也不一定是照護，這個思維很重要就是發展，很多我們這個年紀的人還沒有到一定被你們照顧的階段，好不好？所以這是一個思維上的調整跟改變。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["林委員倩綺：今天很多單位提的其實是同樣一件事情，如果朝這樣一個方向走，問題可能可以解決不少，那法規應該跟著我們的生活面，而不是被法規來限制了我們的生活，好，謝謝，我這邊提供大家一點參考。","接下來文化部，不好意思，你們今天是綜規司司長，本席其實在上個會期已經建議你們將壯世代納入文化幣的發放對象，但是你們目前經費裡面沒有編、沒有看到，當然你們會有很多的想法，但是我在這邊提醒你們，如果有機會把壯世代放進去，其實是可以對文化市場創造乘數效果，這跟你們目前在年齡這個區塊的補助其實是不一樣的概念。","最後，教育部，教育部不好意思，我要跟你們講，樂齡大學，我們這個世代的人都被你們當成是什麼終身教育，不要用這句話騙我們，你們終身教育目前的總經費大概只有36.15億，占整體教育經費1.98%，我們不要講壯世代，光是高齡人口，你覺得這個比例跟現在國發會算出來的比例平衡嗎？這個回去要跟部裡面反應，今天你們次長是在另外一個委員會，然後派終身教育司司長，從派的層級來看，對於壯世代，難道我們真的沒有歧視嗎？對於高齡人口，我們真的沒有歧視嗎？我想壯世代這樣的法令訂定，其實是想要告訴我們社會的實際現象是什麼，我們心裡沒有看到的自我現象是什麼，所以我很期待這樣的法令，大家能夠用正面的思維去看待它，我相信它能夠解決很多社會問題。謝謝。"],["梁司長學政：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接續我們請林國成委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156175","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156175","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bd18ca23f2de226e56b4c0e929d5f577f76d287313e08c4b37676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"13:34:31 - 13:40:22","影片長度":"00:05:51","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:34:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:40:22+08:00","duration":351,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.50221875,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.26409375,"end":21.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.49159375,"end":24.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.305343750000002,"end":27.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.97596875,"end":28.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.102218750000002,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.524093750000002,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.98784375,"end":34.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.81034375,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.44284375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.26971875,"end":39.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.78846875,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.47596875,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.33596875,"end":49.930343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.87971875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.166593750000004,"end":57.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.21721875,"end":50.250968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.220343750000005,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.96659375,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.08471875,"end":64.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.135343750000004,"end":61.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.59471875,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.52659375,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.73721875000001,"end":71.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.04096875,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.25159375,"end":73.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.26846875000001,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.55534375,"end":75.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.24284375,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.61409375000001,"end":89.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.80596875,"end":90.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.61596875000001,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.37096875,"end":94.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.44221875000001,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.85971875,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.34784375000001,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.22534375000001,"end":106.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.59659375000001,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.68846875000001,"end":113.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.98784375000001,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.35909375000001,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.52659375,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.45784375,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.74284375000002,"end":146.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.30346875,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.34971875000002,"end":151.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.63159375,"end":163.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.88409375,"end":157.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.72346875000002,"end":158.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.95534375,"end":162.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.49909375000001,"end":165.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.08971875,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.02909375000002,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.96846875,"end":188.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.16221875000002,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.99721875,"end":197.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.82284375,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.94471875000002,"end":200.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.97846875000002,"end":218.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.13846875000002,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.46534375000002,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.84909375,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.52784375000002,"end":222.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.83159375000002,"end":222.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.85534375,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.00659375,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.56346875000003,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.86721875,"end":248.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.14096875,"end":241.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.31721875000002,"end":247.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.48159375,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.34159375000002,"end":263.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.44534375,"end":267.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.63096875,"end":264.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.61784375,"end":292.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.82659375000003,"end":283.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.36971875,"end":289.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.18784375,"end":337.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.47846875000005,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.90409375,"end":299.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.32971875000004,"end":302.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.46471875000003,"end":303.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.35471875,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.55721875,"end":304.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.39159375,"end":311.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.60034375000004,"end":327.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.20284375,"end":331.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.09221875000003,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.42971875,"end":344.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.26409375000003,"end":345.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.63534375,"end":345.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.69846875,"end":345.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.12846875,"end":350.42346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.547,"end":12.789,"text":"好謝謝主席我想請何部長跟衛福部次長嗯?勞動部吃飯得慢慢吃沒有關係啦所以那個勞動部部長所以勞動部有其他的長官嗎?"},{"start":37.472,"end":37.593,"text":"委員吳春城"},{"start":41.713,"end":70.371,"text":"我想次長這幾天我們總諮詢的時候也提過現在台灣邁入所謂的超高齡明年就到了15年後將近會有30%的老人25年後將近有40%老人因為出生率太低我們現在已經大概就是跟韓國在比全世界第一名現在的問題就在於說我在禮拜二諮詢的時候也問了一下現在你們今天的報告很重要就是企業現在也面臨到大缺工"},{"start":70.791,"end":71.171,"text":"現在的問題在於"},{"start":97.116,"end":113.726,"text":"現在在104調查的結果其實我們台灣的出生率這麼低但是我們可能勞動參與率沒有提高那現在日本老人人口也很多但是他的勞動參與率相對高於日本高於台灣很多"},{"start":114.506,"end":141.174,"text":"在65歲以上我們只有9.9日本的勞動參與率將近25%也就是四個老人有一個在工作那在45歲到64歲我們的參與率只有60%日本的參與率有高達84%所以部長同樣的我們今天這個基本法的概念就是希望讓各種產業各種政策能夠讓更多的壯世代投入所謂的勞動市場您覺得現在台灣的"},{"start":142.739,"end":152.073,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":152.722,"end":179.385,"text":"委員首先就是說我們在109年中高齡專法推動以來其實是成長不少的有成長對增加了38萬這樣的中高齡老人我贊成但是我們現在成長不少還是只有9.9啦我的意思是說要達到不要到日本的程度至少到15%20%我覺得這是要繼續努力的地方委員日本跟韓國他會為什麼中高齡老人參與這麼高有一個"},{"start":180.506,"end":180.546,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":198.047,"end":217.87,"text":"我認識的公務員退休幾乎都是為了照顧長輩對照顧長輩成為他們最大的需求所以現在我在星期二總質詢的時候有希望台灣是不是應該開始提出所謂的長照保險制度比較全民健保的方式讓這些從德國從日本從南韓看得出來我們的"},{"start":218.831,"end":236.954,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":237.074,"end":263.78,"text":"可以嗎?我們那天秦部長已經因為他有去考察日本嘛所以是不是衛福部這部分還是要做出你們其實之前做過評估我希望能夠繼續往這個方向推動好的OK感謝委員我想任何只要對民眾有利的我想我們都是會來就是第一個所以可能長照就是讓大家現在出一點點錢將來照顧自己多一點而且不要讓我們的老人去照顧更老的人"},{"start":264.74,"end":288.281,"text":"這件事情是我覺得勞動部跟衛福部要一起來推動的好不好能不能容許我做一個兩點簡單補充第一個就是說任何的國家推動保險之前一定都會先經過整個資源部件我簡單講我同意現在就是說你不能讓民眾我付了保險費但是卻沒有沒有得到服務所以日本他們在2000年他們之前辦之前就用黃金計畫台灣健保之前我們用醫療網"},{"start":289.542,"end":310.518,"text":"我們現在目前在做資源佈建但是你們有點慢了希望快一點為什麼因為我們的明年就是超高齡社會了你現在還要再佈建的話我就會說衛福不肯失職這是800年前就知道的事你現在才要再佈建這是有點離譜而且長照已經從106年到現在了不是現在才開始佈建"},{"start":311.458,"end":311.478,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":328.368,"end":328.588,"text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長、次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1132,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（13時34分）謝謝主席，我想請何部長跟衛福部次長。"],["主席：請次長先上臺。"],["黃委員珊珊：勞動部？"],["主席：吃飯的人慢慢吃，沒有關係。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，這幾天我們總質詢的時候也提過，現在臺灣邁入所謂的超高齡，明年就到了。"],["呂次長建德：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：15年後將近會有30%的老人，25年後將近有40%的老人，因為出生率太低，我們現在大概就是跟韓國在比全世界第一名。"],["呂次長建德：是的，沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在的問題就在於，我在禮拜二質詢的時候也問了一下，你們今天的報告很重要就是企業現在也面臨到大缺工，而且這個缺工已經是不可逆的，已經沒有辦法回頭了，然後就是這個數字看起來非常驚人，因為接下去你可以看到老人人口數雖然是往下降，但是我們的比例是相對高，所以幾乎叫作沒有辦法讓所有企業都能有足夠的勞動人口，我現在講的，對吧？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：依104調查的結果，其實臺灣的出生率這麼低，我們勞動參與率可能沒有提高，現在日本老人人口也很多，但是他們的勞動參與率相對高於臺灣很多，在65歲以上我們只有9.9%，日本的勞動參與率將近25%，也就是4個老人有1個在工作，那在45歲到64歲，我們的參與率只有60%，日本參與率高達84%。所以部長，同樣的，今天這個基本法的概念就是希望各種產業、各種政策能夠讓更多的壯世代投入所謂的勞動市場。您覺得現在臺灣65歲以上勞動參與率要怎麼樣提高？這些人是不想做，還是不願做，還是沒有友善的環境讓他們繼續投入勞動市場？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，首先就是說我們在109年中高齡專法推動以來，其實是成長不少的。"],["黃委員珊珊：有成長，但是關鍵可能還需要再改變。"],["何部長佩珊：對，增加了大概38萬這樣的中高齡勞動人口。"],["黃委員珊珊：我贊成，我們現在成長不少，但是還是只有9.9%，我的意思是，不要到日本的程度，至少達到15%、20%，我覺得這是要繼續努力的地方。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，日本跟韓國為什麼中高齡勞動參與率這麼高有一個大問題是他們的下流老人非常多，因為當年……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我們現在就是希望能夠提高，我的時間有限，但是部長，我現在要講的是，不是他不想做、不是他不願意做，有一大半的人是因為他要請假或退休照顧更老的人，我認識的公務員退休幾乎都是為了照顧長輩，照顧長輩成為他們最大的需求，所以我在星期二總質詢的時候有希望，臺灣是不是應該開始提出所謂的長照保險制度，比照全民健保的方式，讓這些從德國、從日本、從南韓，看得出來大家勞動參與率不高，其實是老人在照顧更老的人。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：更老的人，他的爸爸、媽媽八、九十歲，以前是可能早就離世了，所以他可以退休，但現在退休、辭職的原因是為了照顧年紀更大的長輩，因此長照保險是我希望衛福部要開始規劃的，可以嗎？"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們那天請部長，因為他有去考察日本嘛！所以是不是衛福部這部分還是要做出……你們其實之前做過評估，我希望能夠繼續往這個方向推動。"],["呂次長建德：好的，OK，感謝委員，我想任何只要對民眾有利的，我們都是一樣會來……"],["黃委員珊珊：這是第一個，所以可能長照就是讓大家現在出一點點錢，將來照顧自己多一點，而且不要讓我們的老人去照顧更老的人，這件事情是我覺得勞動部跟衛福部要一起來推動，好嗎？"],["呂次長建德：能不能容許我做兩點簡單的補充？"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["呂次長建德：第一個就是說，任何國家推動保險之前，一定都會先經過整個資源布建，我簡單講就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意。"],["呂次長建德：你不能讓民眾付了保險費，但是卻沒有……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有得到服務，我同意。"],["呂次長建德：所以日本在2000年辦之前就用黃金計畫，臺灣健保之前用醫療網。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["呂次長建德：所以我們目前在做資源布建，委員剛剛說的沒錯……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是你們有點慢了，希望快一點，為什麼？因為我們明年就是超高齡社會了，你現在還在布建的話，我就會說衛福部很失職，這是800年前就知道的事，你現在才要布建，這是有點離譜，而且長照已經從106年到現在了，不是現在才開始布建，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：當然，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：衛福部這個理由不太好，麻煩把長照保險納入商業保險之前，我們希望在全民納保的情況下，能夠讓長照保險慢慢的上路。"],["呂次長建德：我們來評估，感謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：同樣的，現在就要開始規劃，就像當年沒有全民健保，誰知道什麼是全民健保？推動了以後，現在的成果看得出來它其實解決了臺灣很多、很多醫療的問題，同樣我們現在眼光遠一點，現在開始做，也許推個5年、10年，但是總要開始，好嗎？"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝委員，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。謝謝部長、次長。","接續我們請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156174","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156174","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bdc41a882832abb471a854d634de4a24c76d287313e08c4b3a5ef969bfb1957e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"13:38:28 - 13:44:35","影片長度":"00:06:07","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:38:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:44:35+08:00","duration":367,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.66784375,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.96284375,"end":5.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.920343750000001,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.072218750000001,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.98346875,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.30409375,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.008468750000002,"end":10.240343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.45971875,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.797218750000003,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.387843750000002,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.164093750000003,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.15971875,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.813468750000002,"end":14.982218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.16346875,"end":16.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.83846875,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.872218750000002,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.11971875,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.12784375,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.469093750000003,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.11034375,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.14409375,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.118468750000005,"end":41.813468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.22284375,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.922843750000006,"end":49.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.66034375,"end":51.111593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.212843750000005,"end":54.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.41909375,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.75596875,"end":59.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.992218750000006,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.18596875,"end":62.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.430343750000006,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.83096875000001,"end":65.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.33659375,"end":69.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.42096875,"end":77.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.70659375000001,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.72346875000001,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.59221875,"end":81.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.77346875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.82409375,"end":86.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.13971875,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.98221875,"end":107.00159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.08596875,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.42221875000001,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.61596875000001,"end":118.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":121.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.27784375,"end":129.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.77471875,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.15409375000002,"end":130.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.86284375,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.97659375,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.05659375000002,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.83596875,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.66659375,"end":145.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.45909375000002,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.94846875000002,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.99346875,"end":160.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.25909375,"end":160.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.90346875,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":189.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.34909375,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.65659375,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.11096875,"end":192.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.49034375000002,"end":197.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.63721875000002,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.96159375000002,"end":203.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.35784375,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.52596875,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.32284375,"end":213.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.97221875000002,"end":216.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.79034375,"end":221.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.46471875,"end":222.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.76409375,"end":225.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.56534375,"end":229.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.04159375,"end":232.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.40846875000003,"end":231.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.51346875000002,"end":247.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.84909375,"end":247.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.06409375,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.53659375,"end":247.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.68846875000003,"end":248.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.71784375000001,"end":248.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.78534375,"end":249.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.90346875,"end":249.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.46034375000002,"end":252.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.87784375,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.79534375000003,"end":269.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.52034375,"end":271.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.97159375,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.14034375,"end":272.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.59596875,"end":272.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.62971875,"end":276.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.73034375000003,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.23159375,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.89346875,"end":289.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.53846875,"end":294.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.73596875000004,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.19159375000004,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.43596875000003,"end":297.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.93784375,"end":298.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.97096875,"end":303.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.35909375,"end":303.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.67971875,"end":303.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.71346875,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.83909375,"end":313.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.44596875,"end":315.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.98159375,"end":319.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.60971875,"end":323.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.06909375000004,"end":323.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.82846875,"end":325.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.64659375,"end":337.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.63221875000005,"end":340.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.38284375,"end":353.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.90409375,"end":358.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.86596875000004,"end":354.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.33784375000005,"end":358.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.22784375000003,"end":361.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.23596875000004,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.18909375000004,"end":367.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.85534375000003,"end":367.92284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.218,"end":9.978,"text":"財政部副主席"},{"start":16.355,"end":17.196,"text":"財政部副委員"},{"start":34.201,"end":60.026,"text":"日本呢因為他們針針對因為日本是一個國土很大的地方跟我們傳統所謂的金融中心以城市型所以日本哪一個城市它地方特色嘛哪一個城市那個主要是我們看到它是比如說各自的城市根據他們既有條件的發展比如說它在雜黃是發跟永續跟綠色金融有關的這樣一個那高雄市條件非常好因為它有這個海港也有空港也有過去傳統製造業鋼鐵石化"},{"start":63.467,"end":66.608,"text":"所以他條件非常好公共交通運輸工具又有捷運"},{"start":87.236,"end":106.83,"text":"然後呢他的這個服務業也非常好包括這個美食包括所謂這個演唱會經濟是所以他有條件而且地方政府有這個決心破例去推動提供行政誘因包括場地包括租金優惠包括費用補貼行政協助高雄市政府是不是做得非常好"},{"start":107.79,"end":127.116,"text":"市政府提出一個叫做00688就是前兩年0租金然後6折、8折、8折像這種都是一個地方政府願意提出來的一個誘因市政府已經做到它可操之在己需要的是中央金管會的配合你要透過你的政策工序鼓勵國內的金融業者進駐在專區這專區在特定的範圍之內"},{"start":130.219,"end":135.621,"text":"市政府提到灣區有個大樓,大樓裡面還有一些樓層是…這是一個市販專區,從無到有的過程當然需要很多的準備,你期待把這個市販專區建置需要多久?"},{"start":150.377,"end":172.25,"text":"我剛剛有報告過我們整個規劃還要跟高雄市政府再做進一步細緻的規劃還就是我們要在這個本國金融機構你熱觀的期待你希望什麼時候可以上路我是覺得應該我們的規劃是明年上半年應該就可以在那邊開始開始來做這些事情開辦然後這些相關的OBU然後這些私人銀行的實體業務據點都會進駐嗎"},{"start":174.711,"end":175.271,"text":"政策的目的是什麼?"},{"start":190.177,"end":213.496,"text":"我們是希望就是說比如說其實一開始一定要先有個群聚讓很多的專業在那邊聚集那聚集以後我們提供虛擬跟實體的服務尤其我們看到國外的經驗一些高階的資產管理還是免不了面對面的服務這部分就需要很多專業人士的面對面的諮詢顧問還有一些比如法律文件的這些的說明跟簽署"},{"start":214.036,"end":232.455,"text":"這些都是未來整個專區一個很重要的功能最重要是希望透過這樣聚集引入更多高階的金融人才剛才委員提到高雄在很多整個產業上面確實是發展很好但是在金融業上面確實跟北部還是有很大的摩擦所以南北平衡嘛對 你要求證他的未來性"},{"start":233.896,"end":234.637,"text":"所以我希望你能夠這個全力的推動"},{"start":260.692,"end":260.973,"text":"保險業資金投入公建計畫"},{"start":270.56,"end":270.82,"text":"財政部長翠雲議員"},{"start":295.273,"end":321.483,"text":"所以是跨部會的必須推動的公建計畫那你們跨部會總共要導入多少資金進入公建每年其實國發會企圖性很大所以那個題目叫做兆元投資那我們是規劃說希望在兩年之內我們的保險業能夠投資一千到一千兩百億兩年之內提供一千到兩百億當然保險業這部分我們先因為剛才制度建立的時候可能沒有辦法這麼快"},{"start":323.871,"end":348.838,"text":"我時間到了我一向都很準時這個相關的資料再請主委再提供特別我再提一下10秒鐘創新版你們協助234家的微型創意企業籌資60億對不對對創櫃板怎麼樣去運作如何去協助微型企業來籌資這個過程細節流程跟你們過去提供這些234家的相關的"},{"start":350.498,"end":351.82,"text":"林柱英委員林柱英不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1468,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（13時38分）請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：主委好。今天要跟你討論一個嚴肅而且重要的問題，在你的報告第2頁提到建置具地方特色的資產管理專區，你說要借鏡國外發揮地方特色，請問是借鏡哪一個國家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：日本。"],["邱委員志偉：日本的哪一個城市？"],["彭主任委員金隆：日本是一個國土很大的地方，跟傳統所謂的金融中心以城市型……"],["邱委員志偉：日本哪一個城市的地方特色，是哪一個城市？"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是我們看到它各自的城市會根據他們既有條件，比如，它在札幌是發展永續及綠色金融有關的……"],["邱委員志偉：高雄市的條件非常好，因為它有海港、也有空港，也有過去傳統製造業、鋼鐵、石化、扣件、金屬，又有半導體S廊帶核心，包括路科、橋科連接到南科，基本上就是未來全世界最重要的半導體製造和研發中心。"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實串聯臺南、高雄、屏東這一個產業鏈。"],["邱委員志偉：所以它的條件非常好，公共交通運輸工具又有捷運，然後它的服務業也非常好，包括美食，包括所謂演唱會經濟，所以它有條件，而且地方政府有這個決心、魄力去推動，提供行政誘因，包括場地，包括租金優惠，包括費用補貼、行政協助，高雄市政府是不是做得非常好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，比如高雄市政府提出一個叫00688，就是前兩年零租金，然後六折、八折、八折，像這種都是地方政府願意提出來的一個誘因。"],["邱委員志偉：是，這個部分市政府都已經做到它可操之在己的，需要的是中央金管會的配合，你要透過你的政策工具，鼓勵國內的金融業者進駐在專區，這個專區是在特定的範圍之內，對不對？大概在什麼方位？"],["彭主任委員金隆：高雄市政府有提到在灣區有個大樓，那個大樓裡面還有一些樓層……"],["邱委員志偉：這是一個示範專區，從無到有的過程當然需要很多的準備啦。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：你認為、你期待今天你把這個示範專區建置需要多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛有報告過，我們整個規劃還要跟高雄市政府再做進一步細緻的規劃，還有我們要在本國金融機構底下……"],["邱委員志偉：你樂觀的期待啦，你樂觀的期待，你希望什麼時候可以上路？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我是覺得我們的規劃應該是在明年上半年，應該就可以在那邊開始來做這件事情。"],["邱委員志偉：開辦，然後這些相關的OBU、私人銀行的實體業務據點都會進駐嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們正在邀請金融機構過去中，我們也在……"],["邱委員志偉：那還有專業的律師事務所、會計師事務所也要同時進駐吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們也會逐步的邀請進去，來形成一個聚落。"],["邱委員志偉：那我請教主委，政策的目的是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是希望，比如說，其實一開始一定要先有個群聚，讓很多的專業在那邊聚集，聚集以後，我們提供虛擬跟實體的服務。尤其我們看到國外的經驗，一些高階的資產管理，還是免不了面對面的服務，這部分就需要很多專業人士面對面的諮詢顧問，還有一些比如說法律文件的相關說明跟簽署，這些都是未來整個專區一個很重要的功能。最重要的是，希望透過這樣的聚集，引入更多高階的金融人才。剛才委員提到高雄在很多方面，整個產業上面確實是發展得很好，但是在金融業上面確實跟北部還是有很大的落差。"],["邱委員志偉：所以南北平衡嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是……"],["邱委員志偉：所以你要著重它的未來性，城市在轉型的過程需要一段時間，你要變成一個金融的地方核心或者地方的金融中心，或者南臺灣的金融中心，臺灣不能只有一個金融中心，一定要南北平衡，或者南、中、北都要平衡。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，應該是全臺灣都要平衡，所以我剛才提過，任何一個城市，我覺得都可以來做這件事情。"],["邱委員志偉：是嘛，所以你開始的第一步，強化高雄市的金融服務功能，這很重要。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我希望你能夠全力的推動，讓所謂的專區能夠儘快成立，發揮它的功能啦。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，你在第6頁提到保險業資金投入公建計畫，你的計畫什麼時候上路？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛才國發會也有報告過，這個計畫是整合行政院經濟發展委員會裡面另外一個很重要的議題──兆元投資計畫，這部分我們會配合它，剛才財政部也說，我們會建一個類似投資公建的平臺，就把我們現在的促參，還有相關民間提案放在那邊，我想未來應該很快的會有很多的個案出現。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這是跨部會的，必須推動的公建計畫？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：那你們跨部會每年總共要導入多少資金進入公建？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實國發會的企圖心很大，所以那個題目叫做兆元投資啦，我們是規劃希望在兩年之內，我們的保險業能夠投資1,000到1,200億。"],["邱委員志偉：兩年之內提供1,000到……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是單單保險業的部分，我們先來推動，因為剛開始制度建立的時候，可能沒有辦法這麼快啦。"],["邱委員志偉：我的時間到了，我一向都很準時，相關的資料再請主委做提供。特別我再提一下，10秒鐘，創新板你們協助234家的微型創意企業，籌資60億對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["邱委員志偉：創櫃板怎麼樣去運作？如何去協助微型企業來籌資？這個過程、細節、流程，跟你們過去提供這234家相關的成果，你能不能提供一份資料給我？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題、沒問題，我想相關的一些促進方案，我再準備書面給委員。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","接著我們請林楚茵委員，林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵不在。","請高金素梅委員，高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅不在。","請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔不在。","請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡不在。","報告委員會，今日登記發言的委員都已經詢答完畢。本次會議作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊者，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。委員林楚茵所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156173","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156173","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b2aecd62da751e9c0e0551f8101295a2176d287313e08c4b3ebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"13:33:11 - 13:42:23","影片長度":"00:09:12","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:33:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:42:23+08:00","duration":552,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.52034375,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":7.287218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.599718750000001,"end":6.122843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.793468750000001,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.063468750000002,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.395968750000002,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.712218750000002,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.864093750000002,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.58534375,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.34346875,"end":39.704093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.49721875,"end":45.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.06596875,"end":53.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.59221875,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.34284375,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":67.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.37909375000001,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.32346875,"end":83.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.87909375000001,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.73096875,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.80221875000001,"end":103.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":115.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.81034375,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.13409375,"end":134.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.19971875000002,"end":146.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.23159375,"end":151.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.66971875000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.15909375,"end":160.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.61784375000002,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.97221875,"end":160.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.74846875,"end":173.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.01284375,"end":170.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.25284375,"end":189.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.31346875,"end":193.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.08096875,"end":193.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.67159375,"end":210.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.88409375,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.52534375000002,"end":212.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.97659375,"end":213.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.58409375000002,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.72721875000002,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.57909375000003,"end":219.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.08534375000002,"end":223.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.55721875,"end":232.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.19284375,"end":233.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.74971875000003,"end":256.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.96971875,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.75846875,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.72034375000004,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.36971875,"end":263.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.02784375000005,"end":266.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.50846875,"end":268.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.53784375000004,"end":295.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.32221875,"end":269.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.38284375,"end":286.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.43346875000003,"end":286.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.56721875,"end":297.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.37284375,"end":298.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.48659375,"end":300.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.32159375000003,"end":300.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.49034375,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.65909375,"end":311.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.50971875000005,"end":311.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.30284375,"end":331.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.58096875,"end":315.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.13534375,"end":350.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.52909375,"end":406.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.97596875000005,"end":406.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.24596875000003,"end":406.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.39784375000005,"end":410.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.13971875000004,"end":417.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.59034375000005,"end":421.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.36596875000004,"end":429.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.05659375000005,"end":430.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.78221875,"end":432.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.42346875000004,"end":461.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.75221875000005,"end":434.56221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.56221875000006,"end":434.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.64659375,"end":471.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.71659375,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.03596875000005,"end":497.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.06096875000003,"end":483.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.28659375,"end":498.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.33721875000003,"end":497.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.13034375,"end":498.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.97409375,"end":498.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.99096875000004,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.02471875000003,"end":544.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.17784375,"end":551.4722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.543,"end":8.449,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 我們請陳世凱部長跟這個陳部長還有公平會主委李主委"},{"start":14.265,"end":39.326,"text":"主委好我再強調一次再公開表示一次我堅決反對兩大外送平台合併我在上次的總質詢裡面也跟卓榮泰卓院長也表示過那我必須說我一開始在上一次的交通委員會裡面我就要求我們交通部第一個"},{"start":40.578,"end":55.217,"text":"也是我質詢讓大家知道說原來我們的外送業者是登記在交通部的這個所謂的汽車運輸業的客貨運這樣子的一個象象"},{"start":56.84,"end":80.016,"text":"所以我們推動什麼推動外送平台訂費必須透明化所以剛剛陳世凱部長也講我們現在在訂這個規則是讓它透明化那透明化之後呢接下來我們就要要求什麼合理化保障各方權益之下的合理化那我覺得公平會主委你也不要一直說你們只是依法來行事我認為你應該勇於認識為什麼呢因為這個"},{"start":87.601,"end":103.171,"text":"2012 FUPENTA 成立2016 Uber Eats 進軍臺灣這十幾年來都沒有人理欸就任由他在這個市場上他說要漲就漲他說要怎麼樣就怎麼樣那外送員的這個權益呢就任由平台的糟蹋"},{"start":104.679,"end":114.126,"text":"任何問題都是平台說了算那消費者也只能被動的也只能無奈的承受他要漲就漲、要怎樣就怎樣所以運費十幾年來沒有人管理那現在交通部願意承擔要來管"},{"start":121.952,"end":135.941,"text":"那我覺得各方的保障如何就定位就是一個最重要的議題囉就如同剛剛今天很多委員都提到這件事情接下來下一頁所以我現在就要問我們陳部長先問陳部長在我們交通部訂的這個規則裡面這個費率的規則裡面準則啦你們新增了八條之一嘛那我就要問喔"},{"start":147.827,"end":154.311,"text":"我們外送平台現在外送是用兩輪的啦騎摩托車啦那過去你們這個汽車運輸業客貨運的運價準則呢是管四輪的啦那用兩輪的跟比照四輪的這個計算成本這個是怎麼來比較合理嗎欸我不知道這你要來適宜喔第二個我們雖然說他的運費"},{"start":173.402,"end":189.82,"text":"透明很重要費率的如何的計算基礎也很重要我舉一個例子在你們新增了這個準則八條之一之後呢你們說依據第五條公示中的每車公里什麼合理成本我就要提出一些一般人都在問的"},{"start":194.255,"end":198.636,"text":"這個包括油料、燃料、輪胎、車輛折舊、修車、業務還有薪資我跟你講外送平台的外送員車是外送員的車對沒錯自動車"},{"start":216.221,"end":232.118,"text":"維護的成本誰在負擔?外送員對 折舊的成本誰在負擔?外送員那薪資 抱歉 外送員接單不一嘛所以他薪資怎麼有一個合理的一個計算準則或者是有一個平均的準則"},{"start":234.641,"end":255.011,"text":"我不知道你們是怎麼用這樣子所謂的合理成本因為這些每一點你都是這個外送平台的營業秘密或者是這些資料都在這個每一個外送員的身上而且每一個外送員他所擔的成本跟付出是不一樣的那請問一下你們的手上的資料到底哪裡來呢又何依據來做這一個運費的這個"},{"start":258.803,"end":285.564,"text":"準則保護委員四輪的跟兩輪當然都不一樣是啊那四輪的當然車型也不一定都一樣都不一樣 外送也沒的 車型也不一樣那只能抓一個平均值當時四輪是這樣定那未來兩輪當然也是一樣同樣的準則就是說大家的摩托車價格不一定一樣但我們抓一個中間點或是一個平均值那輪胎大家用的品質也不一樣所以各種方式的計算在機車尤其是兩輪的部分我們要重新來計算"},{"start":286.845,"end":311.25,"text":"我們現在第一步先確定說有要透明化這件事要透明化第二步就是來開始計算它的成本大概是在哪裡這個就是大家在問的嘛因為我跟你講各方的權益都要受保障那各方的權益都要受保障的時候我剛剛講的嘛你如果你訂了那個運費的基本的這個依據讓人家有問號的時候或者是你解釋不清楚的時候"},{"start":312.63,"end":320.838,"text":"那當然大家就會有質疑嘛是不是所以才問大家現在連基本費基本費奠基在哪裡我剛剛講的那些細項啊那續承費、等待費、樓層費、夜間春節加成等等我覺得這個都要一頁的去說清楚而且要合理的告訴大家你是怎麼訂出來的"},{"start":331.748,"end":358.24,"text":"委員您這樣說非常的正確啦齁其實我的目標是第一步先處理運費的透明化那至於剛剛在講的樓層費或等待費這些是由外送員工會他們提出來的但未來的討論我們是由五方來討論所以這些不一定會放進去那個是德啦可以討論但是不一定會放進去我知道但是雖然是德可以討論但是有一個德就有一個依據可以討論有這個可以討論未來就會形成這個要收費的標準嘛那"},{"start":358.88,"end":378.861,"text":"要收費的合理我相信大家都可以接受那我們現在大部分的人是在於那個合理到底是什麼才叫做合理所以我覺得這個我們主管機關也必須要有責任來去擔起說除了透明化之後那個合理的運費到底是如何計算出來"},{"start":379.561,"end":405.503,"text":"收費合理這是大家最關心的一件事而且這個收費合理包括剛剛很多委員提到的平台跟店家該怎麼收費是合理的那平台跟消費者該怎麼收費是合理的那外送員呢他的這個薪資從平台得到的薪資什麼是合理的這個就是兼顧小商家外送員跟消費者我們的初衷就是在這裡不是嗎部長"},{"start":406.604,"end":429.118,"text":"沒錯嘛對不對那甚至我還關心到如果偏遠地區呢對不對偏遠地區那又該如何去計價呢那如何才叫做合理那第三個到時候的計價模式消費者然後外送員平台再加上地方政府加上地方政府也就是說每一個地區地方政府也會加入所以每個地區的計價方式可能會不一樣"},{"start":430.117,"end":438.582,"text":"所以就因地制宜那偏鄉更要因地制宜嘛對不對第三點就關係到公平會理事會啦我上次在總諮詢就提出這個問題囉外送平台兩大外送平台要合併案到現在你給他11月8號之前要他補件那如果11月8號他還是不補件沒有補期權好你就沒有審"},{"start":451.909,"end":471.617,"text":"沒有審呢那到時候呢等到了你們的人事權你明年1月要到任還有其他3個委員要到任總共就有4個委員要到任那到時候如果到明年1月之前他們補件還沒有完成沒有成案沒有成案沒有辦法審所以他就沒有合併可是他也有可能等到你們的人事"},{"start":473.077,"end":498.237,"text":"這個人事的這個到任之後呢他在送件送件了之後呢沒有委員可以審那他會不會變相的就就地合併成功文件齊備以後才開始算審查期間那我們的委員目前編制是7位如果有請假或是缺位等等情形我們是依現有的現有的這個委員數來做現有的委員數如果是叫做"},{"start":499.338,"end":501.321,"text":"相對的少數那這個審查有沒有合法這是一個大家的問題那最後我還必須要提醒你們希望大家多聽多方的意見這個交通部在訂定這個費率的時候不管是我要再強調店家、外送員跟消費者"},{"start":516.658,"end":544.158,"text":"多方的意見我們都要傾聽而且要適時的雖然你們已經在預告了該調整就調整該因地制宜就因地制宜那主委我再講一次我堅決反對兩大外送平台合併壟斷台灣的市場這個對國人、對消費者、對外送員、對店家任何一方都是不利的、都是不好的所以主委請你一定要趕快趕快地放在心上"},{"start":545.236,"end":550.87,"text":"很多人、大部分的人都反對兩大外送平台合併的好不好好 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1069,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（13時33分）好，謝謝召委，我們請陳世凱部長還有公平會主委李鎂。"],["主席：陳部長、李主委。"],["何委員欣純：部長好、主委好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：我再強調一次，再公開表示一次，我堅決反對兩大外送平台合併，我在上次的總質詢裡面也跟卓榮泰卓院長表示過，我必須說，我一開始在上一次的交通委員會裡面，我就要求我們交通部，第一個，也是我質詢，讓大家知道說原來我們的外送業者是登記在交通部所謂的汽車運輸業的客貨運項下，所以我們推動什麼？推動外送平台運費必須透明化，所以剛剛陳世凱部長也講，我們現在在定這個規則是讓它透明化，透明化之後，接下來我們就要要求什麼？合理化，保障各方權益之下的合理化。我覺得公平會主委你也不要一直說你們只是依法來行事，我認為你該勇於任事，為什麼呢？因為2012 foodpanda成立，2016 Uber Eats進軍臺灣，這十幾年來都沒有人理耶！就任由它在市場上，它說要漲就漲、它說要怎麼樣就怎麼樣，那外送員的權益就任由平台糟蹋，任何問題都是平台說了算，消費者也只能被動地、也只能無奈地承受，它要漲就漲、要怎樣就怎樣，所以運費十幾年來沒有人管理，現在交通部願意承擔，要來管，我覺得各方的保障如何就定位就是一個最重要的議題喔！就如同今天很多委員都提到這件事情，所以我現在就要問我們陳部長，先問陳部長，在我們交通部定的這個費率準則裡面，你們新增了第八條之一嘛！那我就要問，我們外送平台，現在外送員是用兩輪的，騎摩托車啦！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：過去你們這個汽車運輸業客貨運的運價準則是管四輪的，用兩輪的跟比照四輪的，計算成本是怎麼來比較？合理嗎？我不知道，這你要來釋疑喔！第二個，我們雖然說它的運費透明很重要，費率如何計算的基礎也很重要，我舉一個例子，在你們新增了準則第八條之一之後，你們說依據第五條公式中的每車公里什麼合理成本，我就要提出一些一般人都在問的，包括油料啦、燃料啦、輪胎、車輛折舊啦，或者是修車啦，或者是業務啦，還有薪資，我跟你講喔，外送平台的外送員，因為車是外送員的車……"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：摩托車是他們的摩托車，摩托車的維護成本誰在負擔？外送員；折舊的成本誰在負擔？外送員；那薪資，不好意思，外送員接單不一嘛！所以他的薪資怎麼有一個合理的計算準則或者是有一個平均的準則，這數字我不知道你們是怎麼用這樣子所謂的合理成本，因為這些每一點都是外送平台的營業秘密，或者是這些資料都在每一個外送員的身上，而且每一個外送員所擔的成本跟付出是不一樣的，那請問一下，你們手上的資料到底哪裡來呢？又何依據來做這個運費的準則？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，四輪跟兩輪當然就不一樣。"],["何委員欣純：是啊！"],["陳部長世凱：那四輪的當然車型也不一定都一樣。"],["何委員欣純：都不一樣，外送員每一個人的車型也不一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：那只能抓一個平均值。"],["何委員欣純：是啊！"],["陳部長世凱：當時四輪是這樣定，未來兩輪當然也是一樣，同樣的準則，就是說大家的摩托車價格不一定一樣，但我們抓一個中間點或是一個平均值，輪胎大家用的品質也不一樣，所以各種方式的計算，在機車尤其是兩輪的部分，我們要重新來計算，我們現在第一步先確定說有要透明化，這件事要透明化，第二步就是開始計算他的成本大概是在哪裡，那在成本裡面……"],["何委員欣純：這個就是大家在問的嘛！因為我跟你講……"],["陳部長世凱：那是第二步了。"],["何委員欣純：對，各方的權益都要受保障。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["何委員欣純：各方的權益都要受保障的時候，我剛剛講的嘛！如果你定了運費的基本依據讓人家有問號的時候，或者是你解釋不清楚的時候，那當然大家就會有質疑嘛！是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["何委員欣純：所以才會大家現在連基本費奠基在哪裡，我剛剛講的那些細項，續程費、等待費、樓層費、夜間春節加成等等，我覺得這個都要一一地去說清楚，而且要合理地告訴大家你是怎麼定出來的。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您這樣說非常正確，其實我們的目標是第一步先處理運費的透明化，至於剛剛在講的樓層費或等待費，這些是由外送員工會他們提出來的，但未來的討論，我們是由五方來討論，所以這些不一定會放進去，那個是「得」啦！可以討論，但是不一定會放進去。"],["何委員欣純：我知道，但是雖然是「得」，可以討論，但是有一個「得」就有一個依據可以討論，有這個可以討論，未來就會形成要收費的標準嘛！收費得合理，我相信大家都可以接受，那我們現在大部分的人是在於那個合理到底是什麼才叫做合理？所以我覺得我們主管機關也必須要有責任來去擔起說除了透明化之後，那一個合理的運費到底是如何計算出來，收費合理這是大家最關心的一件事，而且這個收費合理也包括剛剛很多委員提到的，平台跟店家該怎麼收費是合理的，平台跟消費者該怎麼收費是合理的，那外送員從平台得到的薪資，什麼是合理的？這個就是兼顧小商家、外送員跟消費者，我們的初衷就在這裡不是嗎，部長？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯。"],["何委員欣純：沒錯嘛，對不對？甚至我還關心到，如果是偏遠地區呢？偏遠地區又該如何去計價呢、如何才叫做合理？第三個……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於到時候的計價模式，消費者、外送員、平台再加上地方政府，也就是說，每一個地區的地方政府也會加入，所以每個地區的計價方式可能會不一樣。"],["何委員欣純：所以就因地制宜？"],["陳部長世凱：是，因地制宜。"],["何委員欣純：那偏鄉更要因地制宜嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：當然，這個會因地制宜。"],["何委員欣純：第三點就關係到公平會李主委，我上次在總質詢就提出這個問題囉，關於兩大外送平台的合併案，你請它11月8號之前要補件，如果11月8號它還是不補件、沒有補齊全，你就沒有審；如果沒有審，到時候等到你們的人事權，你明年1月到期，還有其他三個委員到期，總共就有四個委員到期，如果到明年1月之前他們補件還沒有完成，沒有成案、沒有辦法審，所以它就沒有合併；可是它又可能等到你們的人事到期之後再送件，送件之後沒有委員可以審，那它會不會變相的就地合併成功，主委？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員，要齊備以後才開始算審查期間，那我們的委員目前編制是七位，如果有請假或是缺位等等情形，我們是依現有的委員數來做計算。"],["何委員欣純：現有的委員數如果是相對的少數，那這個審查有沒有合法？這是大家的問題。","最後，我還必須要提醒你們，希望大家多聽多方的意見，交通部在訂定費率的時候，我要再強調，不管是店家、外送員跟消費者，多方的意見我們都要傾聽，而且要適時的……雖然你們已經在預告了，該調整就調整、該因地制宜就因地制宜。主委，我再講一次，我堅決反對兩大外送平臺合併、壟斷臺灣的市場，這個對國人、對消費者、對外送員、對店家等任何一方都是不利的、都是不好的！所以主委請你一定要趕快放在心上，大部分的人都反對兩大外送平臺合併，好不好？好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何委員。","現在休息30分鐘，下午2點10分繼續開會，謝謝。","休息（13時42分）","繼續開會（14時13分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","不過開會之前先建議一下公平會李主委，不好意思，我是建議一下，因為剛剛整個早上您的回答是滿認真的，可是針對你可控的項目，我覺得你還是要負責任的回答，譬如說人家來你這邊申請，不管是申請建照、申請併購、申請什麼，針對申請案你給它的回答日期壓到幾號，你不可能說不知道！針對不可控的，委員贊成或反對是不可控的，我理解；可是你們的作業要給申請的單位期限，它如果一個月以內不提供，那就謝謝、資料不足，你們開會一樣就是資料不足。所以我是建議，你們現在補件到什麼時間、給它補件的時間？"],["李主任委員鎂：11月8號，它沒有不提供，因為它……"],["主席：11月8號，好。"],["李主任委員鎂：11月8號，我們要請它補的資料跟說明資料還滿多的，另外因為它也要……"],["主席：好，就是有這個日期，11月8號，好，謝謝。","接下來有請廖偉翔委員，廖偉翔、廖偉翔委員不在。","黃國昌委員，黃國昌、黃國昌委員不在。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156172","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156172","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b8ad96d170859421ae0551f8101295a2176d287313e08c4b3d43161210f0379b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"13:26:25 - 13:32:55","影片長度":"00:06:30","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:26:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:32:55+08:00","duration":390,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.38096875,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.86596875,"end":4.1822187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.806593750000001,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.684093750000001,"end":6.764093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.84846875,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.548468750000001,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.122218750000002,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.94846875,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.867843750000002,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.12409375,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.992843750000006,"end":83.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.57909375,"end":115.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.97909375,"end":117.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.37534375000001,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.85971875000001,"end":125.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.04909375000001,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.95909375000002,"end":137.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.68034375000002,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.79846875,"end":139.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.48096875000002,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.43409375000002,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.96534375000002,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.03596875000002,"end":167.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.79409375,"end":168.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.19034375,"end":168.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.20721875,"end":168.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.40971875000002,"end":168.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.44346875000002,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.96659375000002,"end":170.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.31659375,"end":170.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.43471875,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.89034375,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.97471875000002,"end":171.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.34596875,"end":177.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.60721875000002,"end":175.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.04971875,"end":179.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.63159375,"end":180.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.30659375000002,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.06596875000002,"end":189.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.31346875,"end":197.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.81096875,"end":194.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.73846875,"end":205.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.83846875,"end":208.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.55534375000002,"end":209.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.69034375,"end":212.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.21721875,"end":212.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.72346875000002,"end":216.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.77409375000002,"end":215.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.31346875000003,"end":222.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.50659375,"end":227.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.74221875,"end":233.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.15471875000003,"end":243.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.39784375000002,"end":244.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.41471875000002,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.81971875000002,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.87034375000002,"end":246.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.16534375,"end":251.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.67096875000001,"end":273.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.77221875,"end":252.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.03596875,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.60534375000003,"end":267.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.66409375,"end":272.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.77721875000003,"end":275.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.41409375,"end":288.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.95346875,"end":280.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.59346875,"end":293.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.47034375000004,"end":313.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.73971875,"end":300.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.57721875000004,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.75409375000004,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.90596875,"end":314.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.61034375,"end":333.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.80346875000004,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.20784375,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.59159375,"end":328.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.64971875000003,"end":335.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.66659375,"end":336.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.45096875,"end":336.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.94034375,"end":338.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.03721875,"end":345.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.70721875000004,"end":345.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.09096875,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.96846875,"end":347.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.99346875000003,"end":353.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.68034375,"end":358.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.86096875000004,"end":380.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.90409375,"end":386.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.00471875000005,"end":386.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.53596875000005,"end":388.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.09659375,"end":390.67034375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":10.058,"text":"我請我們的李主委好公平會李主委也請我們的勞動部監事次長勞動部陳次長好主委"},{"start":17.918,"end":44.983,"text":"其實我們這次兩代外送平台業者的結合受到很多的矚目如果說你今天立法院多次的委員會其實絕大部分的委員事實上都不贊成合併因為現在不管對消費者權益的保障或者是對於外送員的保障事實上都沒有辦法做確定而且我們也有一些官員剛才我聽到我們的交通部長他是用比較婉轉的方式"},{"start":45.723,"end":49.825,"text":"那我直接說在這個未還委員會的時候我有直接問我們的勞動部部長他非常明確的說他反對當然不是他個人反對而是勞動部反對而且他說"},{"start":65.254,"end":82.423,"text":"勞動部也發文給公平會表達反對意見因為最主要就是說公會提出的幾個訴求外送平台根本完全沒有辦法達成共識所以不應該進入審查的程序好 這個次長我講的沒有錯嘛好"},{"start":83.764,"end":84.966,"text":"那在這樣的一個狀況之下請問一下公平會還要審查下去嗎因為我記得你在經濟委員會回答委員的時候說還要在11月8號再給他們讓他們補件"},{"start":98.661,"end":124.2,"text":"所以如果按照現在程序大家對這個合併案有這麼大的疑慮而且都認定這個是真的有獨佔而且也沒有辦法我剛剛講沒有辦法對消費者對外送員提出任何的保障的狀況之下你們還要繼續的審下去嗎我想回報委員公平會是委員制所有的申報案件都要經過委員會去決議"},{"start":127.116,"end":142.22,"text":"所以既然有這樣的一個申報案件我們文件齊備之後就要進入委員會去審查所以現在我那他之前就是文件不齊備啊你們還要讓他補件不是嗎所有的申報案件都會有補齊文件的問題那我們"},{"start":145.057,"end":149.92,"text":"不只是這個案件 所有案件好 但是現在喔現在有一個問題喔那請問一下 按照你們這個程序你什麼時候 做完什麼時候 要給他準博我們要看他文件準備的情形"},{"start":161.125,"end":187.988,"text":"資料越齊備我們的審查的品質就會越高進入委員會所以你現在沒有期限就是讓他慢慢的準備他的資料不會是慢慢給他準備主委你任期什麼時候屆滿主委你的任期什麼時候屆滿我的任期到今年1月31號明年明年抱歉明年1月31號所以當你離開之前能夠確定這個案子能不能有一個結論嗎"},{"start":190.339,"end":198.481,"text":"我們還是要看這個文件準備的情形還有委員會討論的情形即便進度委員會也有討論的情形而這樣的程序我剛剛講包含勞動部都已經非常明確的表達反對因為這很重要嘛 對不對交通部看起來也是反對嘛然後我們各委員大部分都是反對好那在這樣的狀況之下我為什麼會特別提到"},{"start":217.367,"end":241.874,"text":"因為不要這個這麼重大的一個產業的併購你很容易把它變成又是一些政治性的操作因為你們1月底也不只你嘛你們有好幾個委員都到齊嘛 屆滿嘛然後又再說因為我們現在有一個問題時間到的時候而沒有做出任何準博他就"},{"start":244.454,"end":273.22,"text":"就是通過了沒有意義就表示它可以進行結合公平會從來不會有正規調整那你現在為什麼你們還要好幾個月為什麼你到1月31號還要好幾個月你不能在你的日期屆滿之前把它決定起來嗎我們是委員會制我必須要看整個委員會討論那你們就開委員會啊我的意思委員尤其主委包含副主委都在明年1月"},{"start":273.88,"end":280.183,"text":"的屆滿但是這些案子你們如果要拖拖然後呢坐在公民會的人事那你們立法院審不審因為我們也有去審查的一個一個壓力嘛對不對然後你就變成說"},{"start":290.709,"end":314.232,"text":"你看最後假釋都沒有把它駁回的話它就自然的變成的成立我們還是依據我們的處理原則依法在處理所以主委能不能這個很容易做的事情嘛你這一屆應該做完的事情你為什麼要拖到下一屆呢我不懂欸我們是委員會制不是首長制"},{"start":315.663,"end":322.305,"text":"你們委員會4個委員欸你們7個委員4個委員屆滿欸你們委員7個委員能不能有點責任感啊還在拖這個事情其實大家已經問很多次了你都用這樣做擋箭牌所以你們是怎麼樣想要讓他過是不是"},{"start":337.029,"end":350.314,"text":"也無視於別勞動部的反對合併的意見嗎?公平會所有的決定都是依法審慎處理我們當然應該依法但是你可以用技術上的方式幫助他所以我要講的是請我們的公平會"},{"start":353.795,"end":366.431,"text":"七位委員負起責任來尤其四位委員都要任其屆滿不要把這一屆該做的事情去把它繼續的去延後有些技術上的問題讓它變成本來大家都有意見最後"},{"start":371.377,"end":376.119,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1023,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（13時26分）謝謝主席，我請我們的李主委，也請我們的勞動部，今天是次長。"],["主席：好，請公平會李主委、勞動部陳次長。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，其實我們這一次兩大外送平臺業者的結合，受到很多的矚目，在立法院多次的委員會中，其實絕大部分的委員事實上都不贊成合併，因為現在不管對消費者權益的保障，或者是對於外送員的保障，事實上都沒有辦法做確定，而且我們也有一些官員，比如我剛才聽到交通部長，他是用比較婉轉的方式，我直接說在衛環委員會的時候，我有直接問我們的勞動部部長，他非常明確地說他反對，當然不是他個人反對，而是勞動部反對，而且他說勞動部也發文給公平會表達反對意見，因為最主要的就是工會提出的幾個訴求，外送平臺根本完全沒有辦法達成共識，所以不應該進入審查的程序。次長，我講的沒有錯嘛？"],["陳次長明仁：沒錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，在這樣的一個狀況之下，請問一下，公平會還要審查下去嗎？因為我記得你在經濟委員會回答委員的時候說，在11月8號還要再讓他們補件，如果按照現在的程序，大家對這個合併案有這麼大的疑慮，而且都認定這個真的有獨占，而且我剛剛講了，也沒有辦法對消費者、對外送員提出任何保障的狀況之下，你們還要繼續審下去嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我想回報委員，公平會是委員制，所有的申報案件都要經過委員會決議，既然有這樣的一個申報案件，我們文件齊備之後，就要進入委員會去審查，所以現在我……"],["王委員鴻薇：它之前就是文件不齊備啊！你們還要讓它補件不是嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：所有的申報案件都會有補齊文件的問題，我們不只是對這個案件，所有案件都有補件的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是現在有一個問題喔！請問一下，按照你們這個程序，最晚什麼時候要給它准駁？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們要看它文件準備的情形，資料越齊備，我們審查的品質就會越高，進入委員會才能有充分的討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你現在沒有期限，就是讓它慢慢地準備資料？"],["李主任委員鎂：不會是慢慢讓它準備，我們會針對……"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，你任期什麼時候屆滿？"],["李主任委員鎂：我的任期到今年1月31號。"],["王委員鴻薇：明年啦！"],["李主任委員鎂：明年，抱歉！"],["王委員鴻薇：明年1月31號，所以當你離開之前，能夠確定這個案子能不能有一個結論嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們還是要看這個文件準備的情形，還有委員會討論的情形……"],["王委員鴻薇：你看嘛！繼續拖！繼續拖！"],["李主任委員鎂：即便進入委員會也有討論的程序。"],["王委員鴻薇：而這樣的程序，我剛剛講，包含勞動部都已經非常明確地表達反對，因為這很重要嘛！對不對？交通部看起來也是反對嘛！然後我們各委員也大部分都是反對，好……"],["李主任委員鎂：因為我們是委員制……"],["王委員鴻薇：在這樣的狀況之下，我為什麼會特別提到，因為這個這麼重大的產業併購，你很容易把它變成又是一些政治性的操作，因為你們1月底，也不只你嘛！你們有好幾個委員都屆滿嘛，然後又再說，因為我們現在有一個問題，時間到的時候而沒有做出任何准駁，它就是通過了，是不是？"],["李主任委員鎂：沒有異議就表示它可以進行結合，公平會從來不會有政治操作。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們還有好幾個月，你到1月31號還有好幾個月，你不能在你的任期屆滿之前把它決定起來嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們是委員會制，我必須要看整個委員會討論的情形。"],["王委員鴻薇：那你們就開委員會啊！我的意思……"],["李主任委員鎂：委員……在還沒有齊備的情況下如何審查？"],["王委員鴻薇：尤其主委，包含副主委都在明年1月底屆滿，但是這件案子，你們如果要拖，然後呢……"],["李主任委員鎂：不會拖。"],["王委員鴻薇：說這公平會的人事，那你們立法院審不審，因為我們也有去審查的壓力嘛！對不對？然後就變成說，你看，最後假設沒有把它駁回的話，它就自然地變成成立。"],["李主任委員鎂：不會，絕對不會有這種思考，我們還是依據我們的處理原則依法在處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以，主委，這個很容易做的事情嘛！你這些應該做完的事情，你為什麼要拖到下一屆呢？我不懂耶！"],["李主任委員鎂：我們是委員會制，不是首長制。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們委員會7個委員，4個委員屆滿耶！"],["李主任委員鎂：能不能做出決定要看委員會討論的情形。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們7個委員能不能有點責任感啊！對不對？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們能不能過還是要看委員會討論的情形。"],["王委員鴻薇：還在拖，這個事情其實大家已經問很多次了，你都用這樣做擋箭牌……"],["李主任委員鎂：不是，不是拖。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們是怎麼樣？想要讓它過是不是？也無視於勞動部反對合併的意見嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：公平會所有的決定都是依法審慎處理，沒有其他的考量。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們當然應該依法，但是你可以用技術上的方式幫助它，所以我要講的是，請我們的公平會7位委員負起責任來，尤其4位委員都要任期屆滿，不要把這一屆該做的事情繼續地延後，有些技術上的問題，讓它變成……本來大家都有意見，最後它就變成成立了，這一點我覺得也是作為主委還有作為委員應有的責任，好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：公平會委員該做的事從來都是責無旁貸，不會有推拖或是其他政治的考量。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以啦，請你在屆滿之前把這個事情解決好嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。其實屆滿之前要處理，這是滿卑微的要求，我不知道耶！就是……","好，接下來請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156171","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156171","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b61b8f1cf45716bdde0551f8101295a2176d287313e08c4b31345feb9e96ac4965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"13:20:39 - 13:26:10","影片長度":"00:05:31","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:20:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:26:10+08:00","duration":331,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.80284375,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.684093750000001,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.764093750000001,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.075343750000002,"end":30.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.11034375,"end":35.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.16034375,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.72471875,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.31096875,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.314718750000004,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.92159375,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.587218750000005,"end":77.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.40284375,"end":93.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.12596875000001,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.23096875,"end":97.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.15471875,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.55471875,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.03534375000001,"end":111.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.08096875000001,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.55221875000001,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.96534375,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.03284375000001,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.70784375000001,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.99409375000002,"end":129.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.66034375,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.66409375,"end":133.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.79159375,"end":171.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.61596875,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.11784375000002,"end":192.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.28346875000003,"end":207.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.92659375000002,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.76846875,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.49284375000002,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.03096875000003,"end":243.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.13221875000002,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.43596875000003,"end":244.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.41471875000002,"end":244.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.43159375000002,"end":245.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.16971875000002,"end":247.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.27909375000002,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.45909375,"end":259.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.52221875000004,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.38534375,"end":270.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.50159375000004,"end":288.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.31909375000004,"end":294.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.90471875000003,"end":298.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.19534375,"end":327.81096875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.775,"end":30.432,"text":"主席有請交通部長、公平會主委、勞動部次長來陳部長、李主委、陳次長想先請教部長外送平台已經是融入民眾日常生活那事實上政府在監督平台運作跟保障消費者外送權益上就要有更大的責任了那我知道部長你知道現在用外送平台點一份雞排大概要多少錢嗎"},{"start":32.13,"end":37.514,"text":"我實際測試從立法院研究大樓訂一份機牌要花150元在現場店家購買是75元但是經過平台加價之後就變兩倍"},{"start":52.555,"end":75.516,"text":"有時候還會遇到一些所謂的配送超時、點餐不服的問題價格高是一回事品質有沒有到就是另外一回事另外我就要想說現在根據外送平台的營運模式平台是對消費者、店家跟外送員是三方進行抽成"},{"start":77.518,"end":93.18,"text":"那首先消費者當然就要支付更高的外送費然後包括現在新的做法又有一些等待計時計加時等待費、樓層費、夜間加層、春節運送那其實成本是一直在往上堆嘛 對不對"},{"start":94.541,"end":110.919,"text":"報告委員如果您說的是這次修訂法的那個那個是得不一定會加入但是未來如果大家討論的過程覺得那該加入那到時候再加入現在只有處理第一步就是透明化的部分不過你也知道就是當我們政策其實基本上也是價格引導"},{"start":112.13,"end":128.175,"text":"就當你政策有這個方向性的夜市其實通常市場都有跟進的效應這個我想部長應該知道即便是用德那你當然也會開始帶起這個所謂的目前因為在預告期如果大家認為那個應該拿掉其實是可以拿掉的那是個問題"},{"start":128.755,"end":153.533,"text":"第一步我們要達成的是透明化的我先講有些部分我也沒反對啦是必須講但我只是說我比較關切的是說你加了這些東西我們的那個立法的出發點或是我們政策的出發點在哪裡那有沒有辦法落實這個政策出來比方說我們就覺得說外送員應該要多保障一點吧那有一些加計的費用那你就要有能夠確保保證我們加這些費用它是"},{"start":154.861,"end":168.849,"text":"也外送員的不是最後又變成是平台又抽成抽去這應該是部長瞭解我的用意其實在店家方面其實很多店家表示平台抽成比例已經攀升到32到38"},{"start":171.69,"end":191.549,"text":"好 然後呢 如果加上我們剛剛講的還有些什麼上架費啊 平台使用費啊 出單機費用啊那加上一些這些上漲的壓力的話 那當然 電價壓力就很大嘛所以他們就有價格上漲的壓力 就有可能轉嫁給消費者嘛那這是第一個要考量的層面 那第二個就是說 我想請問就是說"},{"start":193.351,"end":207.298,"text":"目前我們各個部會針對平台的抽成比例有沒有具體的措施或做法避免說店家、消費者、外送員承受不合理的成本轉嫁"},{"start":209.213,"end":235.972,"text":"報告委員在交通部的部分只有針對運價來做制定對這個部分目前我們希望先推第一步就是透明化的部分那再來就是說剛剛所講的增加成本或漲價目前並沒有這樣子的議題因為目前並沒有討論一定會漲價而且我們到時候訂定的那個運價我們是訂上限上限意思是什麼呢它可以往下它要用免運費也OK平台業者願意做一個優惠做到免運費也是可以接受的"},{"start":236.432,"end":263.48,"text":"我們只是訂上限不要超過這個上限那至於分配的部分那就不是由交通部這邊來管理好那哪些部會分配的部分都沒有管理單位跟我們報告就是現在這個議題對勞動部來講我們關心的是這些外送員的報酬是不是合理能夠做保障那我就講外送員好了對所以以目前來看就是因為平台的他的演算法不夠透明所以"},{"start":263.9,"end":288.317,"text":"外送員也不知道他拿到的價格是不是合理那以過去的經驗來看陸續一直都在調降所以這是一個不好的方式所以我們也感謝交通部在運費方面如果有一個公開透明的機制未來在這一方面外送員包括工會就比較知道說他整個平台業者所收取的費用的結構跟內容是什麼那我們才有辦法透過外送員"},{"start":289.358,"end":312.087,"text":"的工會還有協助外送員來爭取他們的權益把他的基本的報酬能夠獲得到一定程度的保障我覺得次長的回答就很好實際上這就是我們各個部門都要一起來做像交通部做的前等於是前段對不對你前段定價出來如果透明化做得好對不對然後後段針對外送員的話我們在"},{"start":313.187,"end":327.535,"text":"透明化的這個基礎之上的話就能夠多一點就能進到分配的部分啦那當然另外公平會就是大家最關切的說那你要不要准他們那個結合嘛這是三方都要去注意的事情好 謝謝 以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":993,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（13時20分）主席，有請交通部長、公平會主委、勞動部次長。"],["主席：請陳部長、李主委、陳次長。"],["羅委員智強：想先請教部長，外送平臺已經融入民眾日常生活，事實上政府在監督平臺運作跟保障消費者外送的權益上，就要有更大的責任。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["羅委員智強：我不曉得部長知不知道，現在用外送平臺點一份雞排大概多少錢嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我看應該都80以上欸！"],["羅委員智強：80，你太低估了。我實際測試，從立法院研究大樓訂一份雞排要花150元，在現場店家購買是75元，但是經過平臺加價之後就變兩倍，有時候還會遇到一些所謂的配送超時、點餐不符的問題，價格高是一回事，品質有沒有到就是另外一回事。另外，現在根據外送平臺的營運模式，平臺是對消費者、店家跟外送員三方進行抽成，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["羅委員智強：首先，消費者當然就要支付更高的外送費，包括現在新的作法又用一些加時等待費、樓層費、夜間加成、春節運送等，其實成本是一直在往上堆嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果您說的是這次修訂法定的那個……"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["陳部長世凱：那個是「得」，不一定會加入，但是未來如果大家討論的過程，覺得那個該加入，那到時候再加入。"],["羅委員智強：是。"],["陳部長世凱：現在只有處理第一步，就是運價透明化的部分。"],["羅委員智強：不過你也知道我們的政策，其實基本上也是價格引導啦！當你政策有這個方向性的揭示，其實市場都會有跟進效應，我想部長應該知道，即便你是用「得」，當然也會開始帶起這個所謂的……"],["陳部長世凱：目前因為是在預告期，如果大家認為那個應該拿掉，其實是可以拿掉的，那個沒有問題。"],["羅委員智強：是，好。"],["陳部長世凱：第一步我們要達成的是運價透明化的部分……"],["羅委員智強：我必須先講，有些部分我也沒反對啦！但我只是比較關切，當你加了這些東西，我們立法的出發點或是政策的出發點在哪裡？有沒有辦法落實這個政策？比方說，我們就覺得外送員應該要多保障一點，有一些加計的費用，那你就要能夠確保、保證我們加這些費用，它是給外送員的，不是最後又變成平臺又抽成抽去了，部長應該是瞭解我的用意嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我瞭解。"],["羅委員智強：像在店家方面，其實有很多店家表示，平臺抽成比例已經攀升到32%到38%，加上我們剛剛講的還有些什麼上架費、平臺使用費、出單機費用，加上一些上漲的壓力，當然店家的壓力就很大，所以他們就有價格上漲的壓力，就有可能轉嫁給消費者，這是第一個要考量的層面。第二個，我想請問的是，目前我們各個部會針對所謂的平臺抽成比例有沒有一些具體的措施，或者是一些作法，避免店家、消費者、外送員承受不合理的成本轉嫁？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在交通部的部分，只有針對運價來做制定啦。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分，目前我們希望先推第一步就是透明化的部分；再來，對剛剛所講的增加成本或漲價，目前並沒有這樣子的議題，因為目前並沒有討論一定會漲價，而且我們到時候訂定的運價，我們是訂上限，上限意思是什麼呢？它可以往下，它要用免運費也OK，平臺業者願意做一個優惠、做到免運費，也是可以接受的，我們只是訂上限，不要超過這個上限，至於分配的部分，那就不是由交通部這邊來管理。"],["羅委員智強：好，分配的部分是哪些部會？都沒有管理單位？"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，現在這個議題對於勞動部來講，我們關心的是這些外送員的報酬是不是合理，能夠做保障。"],["羅委員智強：我就講外送員好了。"],["陳次長明仁：對，以目前來看，就是因為平臺的演算法不夠透明，所以外送員也不知道他拿到的價格是不是合理，以過去的經驗來看，陸續一直都在調降，所以這是一個不好的方式，我們也感謝交通部在運費方面，如果有一個公開、透明的機制，未來在這一方面，外送員、包括工會，就比較知道整個平臺業者所收取的費用結構跟內容是什麼，我們才有辦法透過外送員的工會，還有協助外送員來爭取他們的權益，讓他的基本報酬能夠獲得一定程度的保障。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得次長的回答就很好，實際上，這就是各個部門都要一起來做的，像交通部做的等於是前段，對不對？你前段定價出來，如果透明化做得好，後段針對外送員的話，我們在透明化的基礎之上，就能進到分配的部分。當然另外，公平會就是大家最關切的，那你要不要准他們結合嘛，這是三方都要去注意的事情，謝謝，以上。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，接下來有請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156170","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156170","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685ba1d478a9784c77d9e0551f8101295a2176d287313e08c4b3142f2a7614d0e9965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"13:13:29 - 13:20:23","影片長度":"00:06:54","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:13:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:20:23+08:00","duration":414,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.71846875,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.95846875,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.48159375,"end":6.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.43909375,"end":7.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.29534375,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.286593750000002,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.99909375,"end":26.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.399093750000002,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.11534375,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.23346875,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.039093750000003,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.671593750000003,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.072218750000005,"end":44.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.32471875,"end":37.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.96909375,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.84284375000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.02409375,"end":125.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.05784375,"end":125.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.15909375000001,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.41221875000001,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.47971875,"end":136.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.79971875,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.95096875000002,"end":134.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.87471875,"end":136.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.98846875,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.10471875000002,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.80784375000002,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.96284375000002,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.74659375000002,"end":226.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.59471875000003,"end":226.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.86471875,"end":236.70284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.73659375000003,"end":237.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.17534375000002,"end":270.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.03284375000004,"end":258.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.70596875,"end":301.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.62159375000005,"end":298.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.77284375,"end":302.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.90346875,"end":365.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.29909375,"end":309.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.03721875,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.58096875,"end":376.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.12846875,"end":412.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.71721875000003,"end":387.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.54034375000003,"end":413.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.84409375,"end":413.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.38409375000003,"end":414.16034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.735,"end":25.578,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請我們陳部長、公平交易委員會李鎂主委、主任委員還有行政院消費處保護處副處長好 首先我要先跟這個陳世凱學長先請問你個人一個問題您個人支不支持所謂這個兩大交易平台合併"},{"start":27.465,"end":42.923,"text":"我個人阿對 您個人不代表交通部我個人會覺得如果剛剛聽到這麼多的論述嘛兩個平台合併之後我沒有其他的選擇我當然希望多一些選擇啦如果合併成一個平台我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話選擇性少一點我會比較不樂見"},{"start":43.544,"end":67.446,"text":"好 謝謝公平會我想我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長問過勞動部部長也問過陳世凱先生他們三個都已經有回應他們不太支持他們希望多元的選擇我希望你能夠再一次看到各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了那我想你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見"},{"start":68.827,"end":87.604,"text":"這麼多的一些長官都已經表達他們的意見也希望能夠聽進去這個部分跟您分享好那再來我想回到交通部之前有預告修正這個汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定明確以機車乘運外送平台的運送業務的運價我想大家以為努力有了結果"},{"start":88.064,"end":102.586,"text":"那剛剛我想很多的委員也對於這一次都非常的關心那因為要看這個草案說明會因為肖基會沒有去現場臨時喊卡部長肖基會拒絕開會部長我相信今天很多的委員都有問到"},{"start":103.787,"end":122.796,"text":"消息會的17日新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促針對外送運價準則影響消費者勝據內容有諸多不合理以強烈反對我先請問一下部長你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣的說明會你的利益是什麼"},{"start":123.999,"end":138.575,"text":"是良善的嗎?你的利益是為了什麼?我們希望它的運費能夠透明化是為了讓消費者漲價嗎?當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價我只是在處理透明化的部分所以我們支持你做對的事情"},{"start":139.176,"end":153.917,"text":"你把這個透明化把它希望能夠呈現出來讓所有的這些跑外送的這些外送員能夠獲得合理的因為有合理運價我們也代表著許多的外送員也要發聲"},{"start":154.938,"end":175.414,"text":"不是所有的外送員都要一昧地漲價漲價再漲價讓他們的薪水高高高因為他們也知道只是不斷地漲漲漲最後會嚇跑消費者但另外我要傳達另外一個聲音我也代表著整個小吃、店家這些聲音我本身家裡是做小吃的嘛那剛剛有許多的委員有提到"},{"start":176.295,"end":193.84,"text":"小吃或者是店家加入了外送平台它可能增加三成的萊克數但是你覺得會增加三成的所謂的利潤嗎不會 因為我所了解很像平台業者也抽了蠻多的抽的很多啊我可以跟你講0.5的業績所帶來的利潤三成的業績可能0.5的利潤"},{"start":200.021,"end":225.433,"text":"這所以我們要看到真正的問題當然交通部願意把這個合理運價去透明化我們可以看出到底有沒有外送平台在後面伸出一雙黑手用黑箱的部分來讓整個外送員一手拿外送員的錢一手拿著店家的錢一手還有可能拿到了所謂的消費者的錢因為我們看到就比如說我們要訂外送喔如果他想要再加快速度還要再加個20塊、30塊"},{"start":227.074,"end":247.947,"text":"所以今天不管是樓層費這些費用我覺得是合理的使用者付費那正常像我們在立法院嘛我們也都是叫到中心一樓沒有再送上去也沒有再送下地下一樓的你要就是去一樓拿那未來如果有所謂樓層費你使用者付費你增加了10塊20塊可以多一個樓層我想消費者也可以體諒"},{"start":248.968,"end":269.83,"text":"那所以在這個部分上堅持你自己原本的利益良善你希望將這個黑箱不透明的部分來做揭露我們大家一起來努力那當然我也要跟消基會還有消保來跟他們講消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理所以我想問消保會公平交易委員會認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎"},{"start":270.831,"end":288.307,"text":"所以我想理由到底是什麼今天我們都有來我們是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場你們為了消費者我能夠體諒當然消費者的權益我們也要保障但是外送員呢店家呢所以我覺得真正的問題還是在平台"},{"start":288.848,"end":290.089,"text":"其中我們對於這個不管是公車、平艦"},{"start":312.318,"end":334.016,"text":"或者是今天有討論到的就是遊覽車評鑑制度的一個檢討你知不知道之前2019年就有開始公車在轉彎的時候都會做一個動作我們在一直在提倡您知道是什麼動作嗎停等跟指叉確認好非常棒我們現在不是禮讓行人現在是停讓行人那我們更希望指叉確認能夠更扎實"},{"start":334.997,"end":364.237,"text":"那現在就我所去了解我們在看到各個路口公車在行駛的時候其實它真的有到停讓嗎?沒有10台車可能只有5台車那真的有做到指叉確認嗎?10台車可能只有一台車兩台車所以在未來的平建制度能不能將停讓行人跟指叉確認更加落實放入到平建機制甚至要更扎實的來做教育訓練這個部分交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為?"},{"start":365.898,"end":387.078,"text":"這個應該現在都有放沒有問題這個都放入評鑑就是我們大概就是說稽查還有如果說它有產生違規的話在評鑑上面的話其實都是有很大部分的群組所以原本就有放裡面對所以我剛剛講出問題點了原本就有放但是我剛剛看到10台車只有5台車停讓10台車只有2台車只有只差確認所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題嘛"},{"start":387.819,"end":412.125,"text":"所以才發生出最近都還是有所謂的公車商人事件所以我們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討我們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強這部分交通部可以允諾我們應該要往這個方向來執行嗎所以這個部分我們當然要加強我希望看到的是更具體的把這些事情做給我們看而不是告訴我們評鑑制度我們會納入我們現在設法在落實當中好不好 落實加強力道甚至不惜要開罰是 沒有問題好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":955,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（13時13分）好，謝謝主席，有請陳部長、公平交易委員會李主任委員，還有行政院消費者保護處副處長。","好，首先，我要先請問陳世凱學長個人一個問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您個人支不支持所謂兩大交易平台合併、併購？"],["陳部長世凱：我個人啊？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，您個人，不代表交通部喔！剛剛聽到這麼多的論述。"],["陳部長世凱：我個人會覺得，如果兩個平台合併之後，我沒有其他的選擇，我當然會希望多一些選擇。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對、對。"],["陳部長世凱：如果合併成一個平台，我永遠都只有同一家可以選的話，選擇性少一點，我會比較不樂見。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。公平會主委，我好像多次在你面前問過卓榮泰院長、問過勞動部部長，也問過陳世凱先生，他們三個都已經有回應不太支持，希望有多元的選擇，我希望你能夠再一次看到，各方的意見都已經再一次在你面前呈現出來了，你剛剛一直口頭說你要多聆聽各方的意見，這麼多的長官都已經表達他們的意見，也希望你能夠聽進去，這部分跟你分享。","再來，我想回到交通部，之前有預告修正汽車貨運業的管理規則相關的規定，明確訂定機車承運外送平台運送業務的運價，大家以為努力有了結果，剛剛很多的委員也對於這一次修正都非常關心，因為要開這個草案說明會，但消基會沒有去現場，臨時喊卡。部長，消基會拒絕開會，我相信今天很多的委員都有問到，消基會17日的新聞稿認為交通部運價修訂會議太急促，針對外送運價準則影響消費者甚鉅，內容有諸多不合理，已強烈反對。","我先請問一下部長，你願意去訂定、願意去做這樣子的說明會，你的立意是什麼？是良善的嗎？你的立意是為了什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：當然，我們希望它的運費能夠透明化。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是為了讓消費者漲價嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：當然不會是為了讓消費者漲價，我只是在處理透明化的部分，不會讓它漲價……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對嘛！所以我們支持你做對的事情，你希望把透明化能夠呈現出來，讓所有這些跑外送的外送員能夠獲得合理報酬，因為有合理運價，我們也代表許多外送員發聲，不是所有外送員都要一昧的漲價、漲價、再漲價，讓他們的薪水高、高、高，因為他們也知道，只是不斷的漲漲漲，最後會嚇跑消費者。再來，我要傳達另外一個聲音，我也代表著整個小吃店家這些聲音，我本身家裡是做小吃的，剛剛有許多委員有提到小吃或者是店家加入外送平台，它可能增加三成的來客數，但是你覺得會增加三成的利潤嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不會，據我所了解，平台業者也抽了蠻多的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：抽得很多啊！我可以跟你講三成的業績所帶來的可能只有0.5的利潤，所以我們要看到真正的問題，當然交通部願意把合理運價透明化，我們可以看出外送平台到底有沒有在後面伸出一雙黑手，用黑箱來影響外送員，一手拿外送員的錢，一手拿著店家的錢，一手還有可能拿所謂消費者的錢。因為我們看到，比如我們要訂外送，如果想要再加快速度就要再加20塊、30塊，所以今天不管是樓層費等，我覺得這些費用是合理的，使用者付費。像我們在立法院的外送也都是叫到中興一樓，沒有再送上去、也沒有再送地下一樓，你要就是去一樓拿，未來如果有所謂的樓層費，使用者付費，你增加了10塊、20塊，可以多一個樓層，我想消費者也可以體諒。所以在這個部分上，請你堅持原本的立意良善，希望將這個黑箱、不透明的部分來做揭露，我們大家一起來努力。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們會努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我也要跟消基會、還有消保處講，消基會說外送運價修訂的內容不合理，所以我想問消保處、公平交易委員會也認為外送員不應該爭取運價透明化嗎？理由到底是什麼？今天你們都有來，是不是可以來回應一下消基會的立場？你們為了消費者，我能夠體諒，當然我們也要保障消費者的權益，但是外送呢？店家呢？所以我覺得真正的問題還是在於平台不夠透明、平台太過黑箱，我們應該一起來努力，這個部分我希望帶到今天的論述，讓大家能夠聽到，可以嗎？我們一起為整個外送的產業鏈來努力，部長可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們正在努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：另外，我想問一下，部長，因為公車不小心發生事故的案件層出不窮。其中我們對於不管是公車評鑑或者是今天討論到的遊覽車評鑑制度檢討，你知不知道之前2019年公車在轉彎的時候開始會做一個動作，我們在一直在提倡，您知道什麼動作嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：停、等跟指差確認。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，非常棒，我們現在不是禮讓行人，現在是停讓行人，我們更希望指差確認能夠更紮實，現在就我所了解，我們看到各個路口公車在行駛時，其實他真的有做到停讓嗎？沒有，10臺車可能只有5臺車；真的有做到指差確認嗎？10臺車可能只有1臺車、2臺車。所以未來的評鑑制度能不能將停讓行人跟指差確認更加落實放入到評鑑機制，甚至要更紮實的來做教育訓練？這個部分，交通部有沒有所謂的具體作為？"],["陳部長世凱：這個應該現在都有放，沒有問題，這個都放入評鑑……"],["陳局長文瑞：我們大概就是用稽查，還有如果他有產生違規的話，在評鑑上面其實都是有很大……"],["陳部長世凱：所以是原本就有放裡面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以我剛剛講出問題點，原本就有放，但是我看到10臺車只有5臺車停讓，10臺車只有2臺車做指差確認，所以你的評鑑制度跟現在的教育訓練有問題，才會發生最近都還是有所謂的公車傷人事件，所以你們的教育訓練是不是應該檢討？你們的評鑑制度是不是應該加強？這部分交通部可以允諾我們，應該要往這個方向來執行嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，這個部分我們當然要加強。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望看到的是更具體的，把這些事情做給我們看，而不是告訴我們評鑑制度你們會納入。"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在設法在落實當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好不好？落實加強力道，甚至於不惜要開罰，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，接下來有請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156169","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156169","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b179b65eae6e3c4cde0551f8101295a2176d287313e08c4b357ff7adbaa11be625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"13:02:14 - 13:12:57","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:02:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:12:57+08:00","duration":643,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.30034375,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.501593750000001,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.762218750000002,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.99409375,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.17909375,"end":32.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.73471875,"end":36.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.13909375,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.900343750000005,"end":59.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.190343750000004,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.82221875,"end":71.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.90159375,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.60971875,"end":76.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.62221875,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.63846875,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.68659375000001,"end":129.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.07409375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.89346875,"end":156.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.37784375,"end":183.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.15846875000003,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.41471875000002,"end":224.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.29596875000001,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.48534375000003,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.32909375000003,"end":253.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.91971875000002,"end":257.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.10471875,"end":288.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.88471875,"end":291.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.86721875,"end":295.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.44471875,"end":295.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.57971875000004,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.05971875,"end":305.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.16034375000004,"end":314.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.49659375000005,"end":331.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.98346875000004,"end":334.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.29534375000003,"end":336.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.25284375,"end":348.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.58409375,"end":357.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.30034375,"end":356.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.05534375,"end":357.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.17346875000004,"end":357.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.20721875000004,"end":357.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.29159375,"end":360.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.19409375000004,"end":362.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.84784375000004,"end":364.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.19784375,"end":363.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.27784375000005,"end":377.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.15909375,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.91284375000004,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.03846875000005,"end":389.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.97846875000005,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.47596875000005,"end":421.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.50096875,"end":423.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.31909375000004,"end":425.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.51721875000004,"end":428.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.43659375000004,"end":435.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.91221875,"end":438.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.78096875000006,"end":441.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.51471875000004,"end":442.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.01659375,"end":447.25221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.37034375,"end":508.35659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.35659375000006,"end":520.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.13534375,"end":523.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.54409375,"end":542.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.68034375,"end":544.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.73471875,"end":548.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.26596875,"end":551.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.09659375,"end":554.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.5434687500001,"end":556.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.43346875,"end":557.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.7834687500001,"end":559.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.70721875,"end":562.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.5422187500001,"end":565.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.0522187500001,"end":566.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.7947187500001,"end":572.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.2622187500001,"end":582.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.8640937499999,"end":586.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.21346875,"end":587.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.39909375,"end":591.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.15784375,"end":596.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.0222187500001,"end":601.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.9584687500001,"end":603.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.58221875,"end":604.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.53971875,"end":612.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.6528437500001,"end":616.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.91346875,"end":627.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.5615937499999,"end":644.21721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.452,"end":17.062,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我們先請交通部陳部長陳部長跟勞動部我們陳次長勞動部陳次長那稍後我會請這個公平交易委員會的李主委那主委稍等一下沒關係喔"},{"start":24.252,"end":41.6,"text":"上週我想也有大家談到外送運價的問題那當時我們陳部長交通部陳部長說這個東西適宜到各單位包含說可能平台歸經濟部外送員的勞權歸勞動部那餐廳有衛福部那言下之意交通部原則上只負責定所謂的外送運價的準則出來那所以勞動部"},{"start":43.121,"end":57.674,"text":"這些勞權的部分可能還是要來請教一下勞動部所以說今天我特別感謝我們召委特別安排這個專報讓大家都能夠過來一起來討論這個議題我們先看一下初步的這個外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看"},{"start":60.536,"end":77.673,"text":"從基本運費、業力加收、延遲5分鐘加收、出電加收跟樓層費這幾個項目裡面來講哪一個比較像是屬於應該要保障外送員權益的部分因為既然今天要透明嘛我也支持透明但是哪一些部分覺得在未來在規劃的時候哪些應該是屬於這個外送員的部分"},{"start":77.833,"end":100.044,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個部分就是說剛才陳部長已經特別說明我們交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分至於費用的部分將來還需要各方的利害關係人去做共同的討論但是就勞動部而言我們希望這裡當然是基本的運費會是一個最重要的關鍵就勞動部的角度"},{"start":100.984,"end":128.973,"text":"現在的問題的爭議是在於說它的報酬不夠透明它透過演算法其實外界不知道它整個財務的一個結構那如果交通部我們支持交通部這樣一個做法之後就會知道運費的基本狀況不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員都會知道一個基本的結構那我們就有利於我們的外送員在未來跟平台業者如何去談薪資保障的這樣一個重要的問題"},{"start":129.053,"end":155.628,"text":"好 次長謝謝對 從頭到尾都在講透明的問題但今天透明的問題就是說今天我已經把基本運費訂出來就是假設以這個草案為例因為到時候過了版本一定也會分所謂的細項嘛那我們今天以草案為例如果今天草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費放入夜間加收放入什麼春節加收、樓神費等等的這些費用透明啦 我把它放進去啦那我今天的問題是請教說以勞動部立場如果今天要保障外送員因為你們立場是保障外送員嘛"},{"start":156.508,"end":183.133,"text":"交通部是要定所謂的上位的指導原則說以後這個行業要把這些條件來把列出來那他的目的當然一開始也是希望說我猜測啦可能也是希望說能夠保障外送員的權益嘛那今天外送員權益的部分當然是歸勞動部的問題所以我今天要問說今天這整個運算公司裡面哪一個部分是真正可以保護到也就是說你不能說最後又回到平台再去拆帳嗎那這樣的話就不用立細項了因為就跟現在一樣了"},{"start":183.473,"end":200.673,"text":"委員包括就是說就我們的外送員的勞工朋友們他們基本上接了單他一定有里程的問題他多少花了多少時間去跑這個單然後他到底是在尖峰、梨峰或者是在重要節日甚至於夜間或者是"},{"start":202.195,"end":224.331,"text":"到的是高樓去公寓或是在平面這個都是會涉及到他的報酬的部分那現在就是說如果我們沒有做過這樣一個透明化的機制就不知道平台業者對於商家對於消費者到底收了多少錢所以就完全不知道說我們的外送員在這裡面合理的報酬應該得到的分"},{"start":224.531,"end":251.344,"text":"那合理的報酬要怎麼說合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到了比如說所謂夜間加收誰去夜間誰是誰是誰會是去執行夜間跑外送這個業務的人就是那個人嘛對不會是Uber Eats的老闆嘛不會是福平台的老闆嘛是這個人去跑嘛所以我意思說像比如說夜間加收或我在這邊等我送到這個人家樓下我等了5分鐘的加收的這個費用甚至春節我去跑外送的這個費用"},{"start":252.944,"end":281.244,"text":"是屬於誰的?是屬於平台的呢?還是到時候在談的時候勞動部會幫忙?因為我講真的我們一定會協助公會去處理這個議題那現在的狀況就是說包括他的運費的結構加成的項目這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分他才會知道說未來在這個運費透明化的時候各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候公會或者是外送員可以主張自己"},{"start":282.004,"end":305.485,"text":"所以包括它這基本的運費多少錢是合理裡面有多少的部分市長對不起運費裡面多少錢給外送人這部分我覺得這當然是需要再去談需要去談判但是我記得說今天你把這個平台我們今天的理想上是要把這個定價所謂定出來運費的內容平台多少外送多少"},{"start":306.446,"end":323.251,"text":"業者餐廳拿多少那個是他們之間商業機制但今天要明定說要用法律去明定出來說夜間加收、延遲加收、春天加收跟樓層費這是用另外訂出來的加收費用那這個交通費用到底我訂出來了今天我作為立法委我訂我們同意這個假設同意這個版本"},{"start":323.931,"end":347.609,"text":"那這個加收費我到底是保障?我錢是要給平台呢?還是我加收的?這張信在哪裡?如果是要給平台那跟現在就一樣啦所以給外送員嘛我意思是說到時候勞動部會去主張只是說目前這樣一個機制他先處理的是透明化至於這裡面相關的額度內容是各方利害關係人到時候要後續去做討論"},{"start":348.65,"end":376.901,"text":"市長可以這樣理解錢多少錢 夜間要不要20元或是延遲要不要5元或是要不要春天要不要30元這件事情還未定 對不對但是這個項目如果真的放上去的話這個東西是一個外送員的嘛主要貢獻者是外送員是吧到時候所以我說你們會堅持這個立場啦我第一次要這樣因為上禮拜問不到嘛上禮拜部長第一次說我今天先把這個項目都訂出來了啊待會錢裡面怎麼分大家再談但是我今天既然勞動部來了我就要問"},{"start":378.322,"end":389.599,"text":"運費我先不談光是加收這些執行業務的這些加收的費用你是不是會去保障這個勞工的部分我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這一部分的權益的保障"},{"start":390.049,"end":418.848,"text":"好 謝謝這個次長那接下來我們看這個這次大家現在也很關心我們今天特別請公平會來因為當然就是合併的問題因為我想如果按照現在已經有競爭的這個機制的時候Uber的 以Uber來講我想網路上有非常多的案例來看到有會員跟沒會員的價差有會員的人比沒會員的還貴那當然這是他們的商業內容他們的商業機制他們要怎麼跑我們有什麼特別意見因為你願意加入會員你要付多一點錢那個是每個人自由這個部分是"},{"start":419.528,"end":446.425,"text":"但是問題是說公平會今天如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場那公平會的角色是什麼你們要怎麼去處理這件事情這個結合之後第一大跟第二大結合將來整個市場結構改變一定很大所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候包括剛才委員關切的外送員的權益店家的權益餐廳的權益這個在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細很審慎去評估"},{"start":447.426,"end":470.564,"text":"因為我想看我們看下一張其實各國外送平台應該說這個是很多國家裡面我們的商業區有非常非常多的外送平台但唯獨台灣的確目前是有點寡占市場的狀況即便是亞洲各國、鄰近的各國都有非常多的這個外送平台在存在所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易他們如果真的變成要併購的話"},{"start":472.105,"end":501.096,"text":"公民會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情還是就是放任因為我們看到現在他們的確寧願花很多錢去做廣告但是對於這個外送員的這個權益還需要現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障嘛所以如果真的以後併購了全台灣如果只剩一間外送平台業者的時候那消費者得沒有選擇啦甚至連外送員都沒得選擇連商店都沒得選擇我只能透過這家來外送我沒有競爭優勢了所以我不知道公民會在這件事情角色上你要怎麼去處理這件事情有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵"},{"start":502.196,"end":519.848,"text":"這可能經濟部業務啦去鼓勵其他的平台業者也能夠加入這個競爭市場還是就是讓這兩家就並用然後就沒事了我們對於結合三八二件都有一個處理原則那對於這個結合之後競爭這個限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個對世界的評論"},{"start":520.488,"end":544.625,"text":"這案子也一段時間那你們有檢討的初步的結果嗎目前為止因為現在文件還沒有完全齊備所以我們等文件齊備以後其實目前我們已經在評估所以我們在臺北、台中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會也就是非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響那這個都會在我們的評估當中做這個考量我們要提醒公民會啦因為如果現在已經"},{"start":545.766,"end":564.484,"text":"按照剛剛你們的解釋我剛有聽一下你說兩大家這個算是所謂的壟斷了嗎兩家這個整個加起來叫獨佔市佔率有超過八成以上對他們是聯合但現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在如果結合的話是有獨佔的這個"},{"start":566.112,"end":590.917,"text":"情況那會不會發生這個事情我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生最後台灣只剩一間平台業者如果沒有核准這個結合就不會有剛才講一家事業超過市佔率八成的問題所以這還是要看我們最後這個省總的結果因為就結果論主委你也提到了如果就結果論來講如果兩家合併就直接佔一定超過八成會那如果會產生這個結果預判就已經超過產生這個結果你們會同意嗎"},{"start":592.216,"end":602.314,"text":"我們還在看整個結核的因素中盤考量那結核他就八成啦不管你怎麼因素他就是超過八成除非有第四家出現嘛第三家出現嘛有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮"},{"start":603.692,"end":626.533,"text":"一定會啊不是嗎還是你要用法律還是要拜託交通部或經濟部或勞動部去訂定相關的法律條件說他不能調整價格我們還是會看整個所有的申報的資料各界的意見全盤去斟酌好啦時間也到了但是我要提醒公平會也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法律既然訂出來了那我們就希望說不能只為了讓這些外商只為了賺錢"},{"start":627.634,"end":643.677,"text":"然後把不管是勞動權益也好或是一般商店的權益也好消費者權益也好全部犧牲掉這是拜託交通部跟公平會在最後這段時間要把這個守住不然你剛剛提到了超過八成到底要怎麼競爭沒有人可以競爭了好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":902,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（13時2分）謝謝主席。我先請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["黃委員健豪：跟勞動部陳次長。"],["主席：勞動部陳次長。"],["黃委員健豪：稍後我會請公平交易委員會的李主委。主委稍等一下，沒關係。"],["主席：好，李主委等一下。先在那邊等一下。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長、次長。上週大家也談到外送運價的問題，當時交通部陳部長說，這個東西涉及到各單位，包含可能平臺歸經濟部，外送員的勞權歸勞動部，餐廳有衛福部。言下之意，交通部原則上只負責訂所謂的外送運價準則，所以有關勞權的部分，可能還是要來請教一下勞動部。今天我特別感謝召委特別安排這個專報，讓大家都能夠一起來討論這個議題。","我們先看一下外送員工會初步規劃的外送運價，我想請教一下從勞動部的立場來看，從基本運費、夜間加收、延遲5分鐘加收、春節加收、樓層費這幾個項目來講，哪一個應該是屬於要保障外送員權益的部分？既然今天要透明，我也支持透明，但是未來在規劃的時候，哪些應該是屬於外送員的部分？"],["陳次長明仁：第一個，剛才陳部長已經特別說明，交通部現在修的法主要是要做透明化的部分；至於費用的部分，將來還是要各方利害關係人共同討論。但是就勞動部而言，基本的運費當然會是最重要的關鍵。就勞動部的角度，現在問題的爭議在於報酬不夠透明，透過演算法，外界不知道它整個財務的結構。如果我們支持交通部這樣作法之後，就會知道運費基本上的狀況，不管是商家、消費者或者是外送員，都會知道基本的結構，就有利於外送員未來跟平臺業者如何談薪資保障這樣重要的議題。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，謝謝。對，從頭到尾都在講透明的問題，但透明的問題就是今天我已經把基本運費訂出了，假設以這個草案為例，因為到時候通過的版本一定也會分所謂的細項。我們今天以草案為例，如果草案裡面要放入所謂基本運費、放入夜間加收、放入春節加收、樓層費等等費用，我把它放進去就透明。我的問題是請教，以勞動部立場，如果要保障外送員，因為你們的立場是保障外送員，交通部則是要訂所謂的上位指導原則，說以後這個行業要把這些條件列出來，我猜測它的目的當然一開始可能也是希望能夠保障外送員的權益，外送員權益的問題當然是歸勞動部。我現在要問的是，這整個運算公式裡面，哪一個部分是真正可以保護到外送員？不能最後又回到平臺再去拆帳，這樣的話，就不用訂細項，那就跟現在一樣了！"],["陳次長明仁：就外送員、勞工朋友們，基本上接了單一定有里程的問題、花了多少時間去跑這個單，到底是在尖峰、離峰或者是在重要節日，甚至於夜間，或者是他到的是高樓、公寓或者在平面，這些都會涉及到他的報酬。現在就是如果我們沒有做過這樣透明化的機制，就不知道平臺業者對於商家、消費者到底收了多少錢，所以就完全不知道外送員在這裡面的合理報酬、應該得到的分潤會是多少。"],["黃委員健豪：合理的報酬要怎麼算？合理報酬不就是來自於我們提到的，比如所謂夜間加收，誰會是去執行夜間跑外送業務的人？就是那個人嘛！"],["陳次長明仁：對。"],["黃委員健豪：不會是Uber Eats的老闆，不會是foodpanda的老闆，是這個人去跑嘛！我的意思是，比如夜間加收或我在這邊等，我送到這個人家樓下，我等了5分鐘的加收費用，甚至春節我去跑外送的費用，是屬於誰的？"],["陳次長明仁：所以……"],["黃委員健豪：是屬於平臺的呢？還是到時候在談的時候，勞動部會幫忙？因為我講真的……"],["陳次長明仁：我們一定會協助工會去處理這個議題。現在的狀況就是包括運費的結構、加成的項目，這些當然都是最後整體外送員要去了解的部分，他才會知道未來運費透明化，各方利害關係人在共同決定的時候，工會或者是外送員可以主張自己的權益，包括基本的運費多少錢是合理，裡面有多少的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：次長，對不起！運費裡面多少錢給外送員，我覺得這部分當然需要再去談判。我指的是，我們在理想上要把所謂定價訂出來，運費的內容、平臺多少、外送多少、餐廳拿多少，那是他們之間的商業機制，但今天要用法律明定出夜間加收、延遲加收、春節加收跟樓層費，這是又另外訂出來的加收費用。今天我作為立法委員，假設我們同意這個版本，這個加收費用的錢是要給平臺呢？還是誰？這些東西在哪裡？如果要給平臺，那跟現在就一樣了。"],["陳次長明仁：當然是給外送員，因為執行的是外送員。"],["黃委員健豪：所以是給外送員。我的意思是，到時候勞動部會去主張嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：只是目前這樣的機制先處理的是透明化，至於相關的額度、內容，是各方利害關係人後續要討論的。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，可不可以這樣理解？多少錢？夜間要不要20元，或是延遲要不要5元，或是春節要不要30元？這件事情還未定，對不對？"],["陳次長明仁：因為主要貢獻者還是外送員。"],["黃委員健豪：這個項目如果真的放上去，這個東西是給外送員的嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：主要貢獻者是外送員，理當應該要……"],["黃委員健豪：是吧？到時候你們會不會堅持這個立場？我的意思是這樣。"],["陳次長明仁：我們當然會……"],["黃委員健豪：因為上禮拜問不到，上禮拜部長的意思是，先把這個項目都訂出來，到底錢怎麼分，大家再談。今天既然勞動部來了，我就要問。我就先不談運費，光是加收這些執行業務的費用，你是不是會保障勞工的部分？"],["陳次長明仁：我們會協助工會或外送員來爭取這部分權益的保障。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝次長。接下來，大家現在也很關心，我們今天特別請公平會來，當然就是為了合併的問題。如果按照現在已經有競爭機制的時候，以Uber來講，我想網路上也看到非常多的案例，關於有會員跟沒會員的價差，有會員的人比沒會員的還貴，當然這是他們的商業內容、商業機制，他們要怎麼跑，我沒有什麼特別意見。因為你願意加入會員，要付多一點錢，那是每個人的自由。但問題是，如果他們兩個真的壟斷了市場，公平會的角色是什麼？你們要怎麼處理這件事情？"],["李主任委員鎂：這個結合之後，即第一大跟第二大結合，將來整個市場結構改變一定很大，所以我們在審酌這個結合案件的時候，包括剛才委員關切外送員的權益、店家的權益、餐廳的權益，在我們的競爭評估上都會很仔細、很審慎去評估。"],["黃委員健豪：有關各國外送平臺，應該說很多國家都有非常多外送平臺，但唯獨臺灣目前的確有寡占市場的狀況，即便是亞洲鄰近的各國都有非常多的外送平台存在。所以今天我要問的是公平會對於這個市場交易，如果真的要併購的話，公平會要怎麼樣出手去阻止這件事情，還是就放任？因為我們看到現在的確他們寧願花很多錢去做廣告，但是對於外送員的權益到現在還需要我們交通部提出相關的法令來保障，所以如果真的以後併購了，全臺灣只剩一間外送平台業者的時候，消費者等於沒有選擇啦，甚至連外送員都沒得選擇，連商店都沒得選擇，我只能透過這家來外送，就沒有競爭優勢了，所以我不知道公平會在這件事情的角色上要怎麼去處理？有沒有辦法去引進或是鼓勵其他的平臺業者也能夠加入競爭市場，這可能也是經濟部業務啦，還是你就是讓這兩家併購，然後就沒事了？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們對於結合的申報案件都有一個處理原則，有關結合之後，限制競爭的不利益跟對經濟的利益，我們會去通盤檢討再來做一個最適切的評估。"],["黃委員健豪：這案子也一段時間了，目前為止你們的檢討有初步的結果了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：因為文件現在還沒有完全齊備，所以我們等文件齊備以後，其實目前已經在評估，我們在臺北、臺中、高雄、宜蘭都開過公聽會，我們非常慎重處理這個結合案件對各界的影響，這個都會在我們的評估當中做為考量。"],["黃委員健豪：我們要提醒公平會，如果現在已經按照剛剛你們的解釋，我剛有聽一下，你說兩大家算是所謂的壟斷了嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：兩家整個加起來……"],["黃委員健豪：叫獨占？"],["李主任委員鎂：市占率有超過八成以上。"],["黃委員健豪：對，他們現在有點聯合壟斷的意味在。"],["李主任委員鎂：如果結合的話，是有獨占的情況。"],["黃委員健豪：會不會發生這件事情？我的問題是民眾想知道會不會發生臺灣到最後只剩一間平台業者？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果沒有核准這個結合，就不會有剛才講的一家事業超過市占率八成的問題，所以這還是要看我們最後審酌的結果。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，你也提到，就結果論來講，如果兩家合併就一定超過八成，如果預判就已經會產生這個結果，你們會同意嗎？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們還是要看整個結合的因素，通盤考量。"],["黃委員健豪：它結合就是八成，不管是什麼因素，就是超過八成，除非有第三家、第四家出現嘛！"],["李主任委員鎂：要看看它有沒有產生限制競爭的疑慮。"],["黃委員健豪：一定會啊，不是嗎？還是你要用法律，就是拜託交通部、經濟部或是勞動部去訂定相關的法令條件規定它不能調整價格？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們還是會看整個所有的申報資料及各界的意見全盤去審酌。"],["黃委員健豪：好啦，時間也到了，但是我要提醒公平會，也謝謝交通部訂這個相關法令，既然訂出來了，那我們就希望不能讓這些外商只為了賺錢，就把不管是勞動權益也好，或是一般商店的權益也好、消費者權益也好，全部犧牲掉。第一個，拜託交通部跟公平會，在最後這段時間要把這個守住，不然你剛剛提到超過八成，到底要怎麼競爭？沒有人可以競爭啦，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","先作以下宣告：待會兒發言到何欣純委員截止，休息30分鐘，補充能源，怕後面的委員餓到，因為今天要問的委員非常多啦，餓到兩點多的話，有時候亂答，對大家不利啦，大概是這樣。","好，接下來有請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156168","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156168","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b3a21e1a1f6cea0c8e0551f8101295a2176d287313e08c4b37778f5872ee59a395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"12:54:19 - 13:02:02","影片長度":"00:07:43","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:54:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:02:02+08:00","duration":463,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.384718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.44409375,"end":3.3215937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3215937500000003,"end":3.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.654718750000001,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.650343750000001,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.43909375,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.122218750000002,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.74534375,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.63534375,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.52909375,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.75659375,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.355343750000003,"end":36.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.172843750000006,"end":38.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.830968750000004,"end":38.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.47971875,"end":44.884718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.407843750000005,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.07409375,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.744718750000004,"end":63.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.49784375,"end":75.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.54659375,"end":90.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.75096875,"end":96.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.74159375,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.03159375000001,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.24221875,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.73096875,"end":110.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.54471875,"end":141.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.46034375000002,"end":141.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.84846875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.03409375,"end":142.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.33784375000002,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.21096875,"end":159.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.30159375000002,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.54346875000002,"end":179.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.56409375,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.35659375,"end":184.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.16159375,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":197.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.06784375,"end":197.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.31659375,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":199.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.11784375000002,"end":200.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.40034375000002,"end":210.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.69846875000002,"end":210.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.62659375,"end":225.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.06409375,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.97471875000002,"end":233.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.53034375000001,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.58096875,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.59784375,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.03221875000003,"end":235.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.02784375000002,"end":238.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.20034375,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.93721875000003,"end":250.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.08909375000002,"end":249.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.10159375,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.33346875,"end":251.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.41284375000004,"end":263.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.39034375,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.83909375,"end":288.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.50534375,"end":286.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.30659375,"end":305.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.72409375,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.24909375000004,"end":344.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.32846875,"end":310.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.97721875,"end":317.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.42284375,"end":327.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.47346875,"end":327.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.61596875000004,"end":334.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.17971875,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.89534375,"end":355.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.82346875,"end":378.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.31784375,"end":379.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.87034375,"end":383.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.64596875,"end":409.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.51534375,"end":428.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.03971875,"end":455.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.02721875000003,"end":458.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.26721875000004,"end":463.55346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.489,"end":26.949,"text":"有請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳次長還有公平交易委員會李竺偉李竺偉是我想在這裡先跟主席那個請教一下就是我們外委員會大概有幾分鐘執行的時間今天有宣告4加14加1那如果議題沒有講完我還可以再延續原則上不行我這邊會決議好謝謝你好謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":31.151,"end":35.177,"text":"在這裡我首先先請教我們公平交易委員會"},{"start":37.236,"end":59.847,"text":"李主委那我想就是說最近就是兩個外送平台合併的一個這個議題其實在我們整體的社會裡頭就是灰灰騰騰那關係到就是民眾跟外送員跟餐廳雙方的一個受害到底是Uber Eats還是就是併購那個Hubenda"},{"start":61.308,"end":77.067,"text":"這個對民眾跟外送員跟餐廳三方面的一個受害我想主委你也關心到了這一個議題那如果我們從6月份就是外送產業工會的代表他們提出來就是說從這個最早期"},{"start":77.588,"end":105.345,"text":"台灣每一張這個單子就是我們的外送員可以分紅到110塊到130塊到現在僅剩下30到40塊錢那是過去的四分之一可是在調整前面卻沒有跟外送員做好那個良好的溝通我不知道就是主委對於這個外送員這個權益受損的這一個問題是不是你有達到這個監督的一個那個責任"},{"start":106.626,"end":126.147,"text":"謝委員在我們審查這兩個外送平台結合當中勞動條件的改變情形也會列入考量也會列入考量那當然是要列入考量那所以就是說合併審查案裡頭的評估那在這裡我要特別跟主委請教一下就是說"},{"start":127.188,"end":143.443,"text":"其實Huber的集團向來並沒有非常遵守法規我們知道到現在為止他們還沒有幫外送員就是去保這個勞保我不知道你知不知道這個議題我有知道這個消息你知道了多少"},{"start":144.866,"end":162.651,"text":"這個部分有一些訴訟那跟委員回報就是說外送平台他依法該有什麼作為不該有什麼作為我想這如果涉及到影響競爭秩序公平交易法可以處理的問題可是外送員被剝削的問題其實是已經存在了"},{"start":163.191,"end":179.01,"text":"那這個存在了以後就是說我們相關的部門大家就是把它列為就是一個商業的競爭這個會讓我們這些外送員會覺得就是說政府的沒有作為然後對政府失望會不會有這樣的一個感覺"},{"start":179.571,"end":200.208,"text":"我想所有的事業在經營業務都要符合競爭秩序所以在經營過程當中如果有影響到競爭秩序維護交易秩序那這個有沒有影響到不幫外送員那個頭保那個勞健保有沒有影響到他的競爭秩序最主要是一個競爭秩序的一個考量好"},{"start":201.611,"end":210.502,"text":"顯然主委你沒有很正面的回答這個問題啦齁那在還沒有合併以前就這樣外送會這個惡意的漲價你有沒有去阻止他呢"},{"start":212.371,"end":238.431,"text":"各事業去調整它的服務價格喔如果是個別基於它的營運考量去調整價格這個是市場的一個這是市場的一個基準如果是聯合聯合壟斷要去調價那這個在公平法一定有重罰那基本上這兩個兩個平台就是聯合就是它把外送會、服務會都整個一起漲價啦難道你不知道嗎我們知道它有調整價格的情形但是"},{"start":240.213,"end":259.128,"text":"如果有這個聯合兩個平台合資共同合要一起漲價這個公平交易法會有處罰的機制如果是個別定價主委我覺得你要去正視這些問題他們就是聯合的漲價這個你查了馬上就非常的清楚會看到這個問題主委你請回交通部長"},{"start":265.424,"end":288.119,"text":"部長就是最近我們有公告那個就是外送平台匯率的一個公式其中也有提到就是說在這個平台裡頭我們要等待匯用還有就是樓層匯跟印匯我們都要加收那這個加收的過程包括沒有一定要加收那是得未來的計價可以加入但不一定要加入"},{"start":288.359,"end":303.388,"text":"好 不一定要加入那你有沒有就是說在這裡頭我們看得到就是說交通部他你還在那個研討就是有配套的一個措施是不是要收那你多收的這一些費用要給誰"},{"start":304.289,"end":323.898,"text":"要分配給誰報告委員交通部在處理的面向只有針對運價的透明化運價透明化也就是說它裡面該有什麼樣的項目那應該怎麼樣的定價運價透明化的公式是這一次交通部要推展的一個部分那針對未來的定價的部分到底怎麼定價是由消費者"},{"start":324.838,"end":343.71,"text":"跟那個外送員的工會跟業者平台業者還有地方政府還有這個公路局大家會來共同來擬定跟商討那未來也只會定上線不會有下線那未來的這個收費完之後至少先做到透明啦透明完之後才能討論下一步他們怎麼分配的問題好"},{"start":344.651,"end":359.78,"text":"部長透明了以後我們就是說業者跟工會一起來討論還有消基會共同來討論就是說起碼我們把這個價錢是透明的這個是交通部目前我們在擬定這個修法主要是要讓它透明化"},{"start":360.18,"end":383.019,"text":"因為現在很多的外送員的員工在反映說他根本也不知道實際上收了多少運費那我作為一個消費者其實我也不太清楚他是真的免運費還是假的免運費那未來我們希望說整個運費定價上面可以清楚的讓消費者知道也可以讓這個外送員都清楚好 謝謝齁主委那個我請回不是請你坐回位子"},{"start":384.68,"end":404.425,"text":"那個我想我在這裡顯然就是說你對這一個兩大平台的一個併購變成市長一家獨大對產業真的有利這一個議題前面我在跟你探討的時候你沒有很正向的在回答我啦外送平台它抽成高合併了以後會不會漲絕對漲它的收費絕對漲那合併了以後就是說"},{"start":411.106,"end":428.119,"text":"這個對消費者來講的話事實上就是其實是對我們來講是非常的不利的那如果公平會的態度是這樣的一個態度的話顯然沒有辦法做到公平正義所以這個也是我比較擔心的啦所以我就希望就是說"},{"start":430.263,"end":458.806,"text":"換任這個外送平台合併然後我們還要看到臺灣的這個餐飲業被這個外資掐住了脖子這個是我們比較擔心的所以我們也希望就是說主委你從2024年初的一個調查到現在其實幾乎我們在公平會裡頭沒有去主導一個真正的這個公平正義這個我想是不是把這個那個調查在一個月內給本席好不好"},{"start":459.266,"end":462.163,"text":"好我們會後再跟再提供給好謝謝那謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":866,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（12時54分）謝謝主席。有請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳次長、公平交易委員會李主委。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長、勞動部陳次長，還有公平交易委員會李主委。"],["賴委員惠員：在這裡想先請教主席，外委員會委員大概有幾分鐘質詢時間？"],["主席：今天有宣告4加1。"],["賴委員惠員：如果議題沒有講完，我還可以再延續？"],["主席：原則上不行，我這邊會決議，謝謝你。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主席。首先請教公平交易委員會李主委。最近兩個外送平臺合併的議題，在社會裡鬧得沸沸揚揚，讓民眾、外送員跟餐廳都受害。也就是Uber Eats併購foodPanda，造成民眾、外送員還有餐廳三方受害，我想主委也很關心這個議題。6月份外送產業工會代表提到，從最早期外送員每張單子可以分紅110元到130元，到現在僅剩下30到40元，是過去的四分之一，可是在調整前，平臺卻沒有跟外送員做好溝通。對於外送員權益受損的問題，不知道主委是否有盡到監督的責任？"],["李主任委員鎂：委員好，謝謝委員。在我們審查這兩個外送平臺結合案時，會將勞動條件的改變列入考量。"],["賴委員惠員：也會列入考量？當然要列入考量！就合併審查案的評估一事，我要特別跟主委請教。其實Uber集團向來沒有非常遵守法規，到現在為止，他們還沒有幫外送員保勞保，不知道主委知不知道？"],["李主任委員鎂：我知道這個消息。"],["賴委員惠員：你知道多少？"],["李主任委員鎂：這涉及到一些訴訟。跟委員回報，外送平臺依法該有什麼作為、不該有什麼作為都有規定，但如果涉及影響競爭秩序時，公平交易法可以處理的問題……"],["賴委員惠員：其實外送員被剝削的問題已經存在了，但相關部門將它列為一種商業競爭，讓這些外送員覺得政府沒有作為，對政府失望，會不會有這樣的感覺？"],["李主任委員鎂：所有事業在經營業務時都要符合競爭秩序……"],["賴委員惠員：當然。"],["李主任委員鎂：經營過程當中，如果有影響到競爭秩序，維護交易秩序在我們的法裡面都可以處理……"],["賴委員惠員：這有沒有影響到不幫外送員投保勞健保？有沒有影響到競爭秩序？"],["李主任委員鎂：主要是考量到競爭秩序。"],["賴委員惠員：顯然主委沒有很正面回答這個問題。在還沒有合併以前就漲外送費，惡意漲價，你有沒有阻止？"],["李主任委員鎂：各事業調整服務價，如果個別基於營運考量去調整價格，這是市場的一個……"],["賴委員惠員：這是市場機制？"],["李主任委員鎂：如果是聯合壟斷調價，那麼公平法一定重罰！"],["賴委員惠員：基本上這兩個平臺就是聯合起來，把外送費、服務費都一起漲了，難道你不知道？"],["李主任委員鎂：我們知道有調整價格，但如果有聯合，也就是兩個平臺共同漲價，公平交易法會有處罰機制。如果是個別定價……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，你要正視這些問題，他們就是聯合漲價，這點你查了馬上就非常清楚，也會看到問題。主委，請回。","交通部陳部長，最近公告了外送平臺費率公式，其中提到在平臺有等待費用，還有就是樓層費、運費都要加收……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，不是一定要加收，是「得」，未來的計價可以加入，但不一定要加入。"],["賴委員惠員：不一定要加入？所以交通部還在研討配套措施，看是不是要收？請問多收的費用給誰？分配給誰？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，交通部所處理的面向只針對運價的透明化。也就是說裡面該有什麼樣的項目，應該怎麼樣定價，運價透明化公式是這次交通部要推展的一個部分。針對未來到底怎麼定價是由消費者與外送員工會、平臺業者及地方政府、公路局，大家會共同來擬定跟商討，未來也只會訂上限，不會有下限。未來的收費至少先做到透明，透明完之後才能討論下一步他們怎麼分配的問題。"],["賴委員惠員：透明了以後，業者跟工會還有消基會共同來討論，就是起碼把價錢透明了，這個是交通部一定……"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們在擬定修法，主要是要讓它透明化，因為現在很多外送員反映，他根本也不知道實際上收了多少運費，作為消費者，其實也不太清楚是真的免運費，還是假的免運費。未來我們希望整個運費定價可以清楚地讓消費者知道，也可以讓外送員都清楚。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝。主委，我說請回，不是請你坐回位置。顯然這兩大平臺併購變成市場一家獨大，對產業真的有利，前面我在跟你探討這個議題的時候，你沒有很正向的在回答我。外送平臺抽成高，合併了以後會不會漲？它的收費絕對漲！合併了以後，對消費者來講，事實上是非常不利的。如果公平會的態度是這樣的話，顯然沒有辦法做到公平正義，所以這個也是我比較擔心的。放任外送平臺合併，然後我們還要看到臺灣的餐飲業被外資掐住脖子，這個是我們比較擔心的。從2024年初調查到現在，公平會幾乎沒有主導真正的公平正義，是不是把這個調查在1個月內給本席？好不好？"],["李主任委員鎂：好，我們會後再提供給委員。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。","接下來請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156167","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156167","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b80f88c1e4624f61c1a854d634de4a24c76d287313e08c4b3147423978a1619b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"13:23:50 - 13:38:18","影片長度":"00:14:28","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:23:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:38:18+08:00","duration":868,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7097187500000004,"end":4.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2115937500000005,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.94909375,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.41721875,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.14659375,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.73596875,"end":26.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.980343750000003,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.55784375,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.58721875,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.025343750000005,"end":37.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.96596875,"end":41.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.471593750000004,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.40346875,"end":47.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.80409375,"end":49.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.55909375,"end":51.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.140968750000006,"end":54.267218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.110968750000005,"end":58.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.080968750000004,"end":63.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.73409375000001,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.03346875,"end":67.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.00346875000001,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.51346875,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.83409375000001,"end":73.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.96784375,"end":82.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.53284375000001,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.10159375,"end":91.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.32034375,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.58159375000001,"end":95.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.72471875000001,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.92284375000001,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.77909375,"end":100.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.36534375000001,"end":103.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.21284375,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.76096875,"end":114.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.06784375000001,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.91971875,"end":119.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.23159375,"end":122.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.84284375000001,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.33159375,"end":131.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.36034375,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.20784375,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.55284375000002,"end":146.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.87721875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.31096875,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.92659375000002,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.93909375,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.50784375,"end":161.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.63846875000002,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.87846875000002,"end":168.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.20284375,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.44721875000002,"end":176.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.07909375,"end":180.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.30221875,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.47909375,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.02721875,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.54596875000001,"end":192.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.72659375,"end":195.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.73034375,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.44659375,"end":204.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.11284375000002,"end":206.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.91846875000002,"end":208.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.63971875000001,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.96409375000002,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.12409375000001,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.03534375,"end":215.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.15346875,"end":215.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.55846875,"end":215.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.36846875,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.93284375000002,"end":225.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.86909375000002,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.38784375,"end":232.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.43346875,"end":234.59346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.93096875,"end":238.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.89659375000002,"end":241.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.93409375000002,"end":243.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.06034375000002,"end":245.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.54534375000003,"end":246.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.82784375000003,"end":247.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.02596875,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.13534375,"end":253.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.14784375000002,"end":251.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.93659375000001,"end":257.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.83034375,"end":260.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.39971875000003,"end":261.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.77909375,"end":263.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.58471875000004,"end":264.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.93471875,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.63471875,"end":268.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.90034375,"end":270.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.65534375000004,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.68034375,"end":273.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.96284375,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.67971875,"end":287.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.08721875000003,"end":294.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.78659375,"end":298.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.30909375000005,"end":303.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.03409375,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.80096875000004,"end":313.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.97784375000003,"end":318.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.88409375000003,"end":322.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.58409375,"end":322.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.86659375,"end":327.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.94596875,"end":331.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.99596875000003,"end":334.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.23596875000004,"end":338.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.64471875000004,"end":340.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.70346875,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.97721875,"end":349.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.57971875000004,"end":349.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.59659375,"end":349.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.61346875000004,"end":355.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.74846875000003,"end":350.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.31721875,"end":359.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.94096875,"end":361.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.86909375000005,"end":363.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.53534375000004,"end":366.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.58971875000003,"end":368.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.27721875000003,"end":369.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.03659375,"end":372.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.18846875,"end":369.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.86721875,"end":372.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.88409375000003,"end":373.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.44096875,"end":373.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.50846875,"end":373.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.54221875,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.57596875,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.60971875,"end":374.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.41534375000003,"end":377.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.86221875,"end":379.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.83659375,"end":382.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.89096875,"end":383.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.62909375000004,"end":386.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.14346875,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.03346875,"end":389.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.23596875000004,"end":391.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.31159375000004,"end":393.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.75846875,"end":398.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.28096875,"end":402.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.17471875,"end":403.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.35596875000005,"end":409.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.53659375,"end":414.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.69221875000005,"end":413.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.31221875,"end":420.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.31534375,"end":422.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.45846875,"end":428.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.97284375000004,"end":431.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.41909375,"end":433.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.17409375000005,"end":434.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.68034375,"end":435.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.89534375000005,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.22784375000003,"end":447.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.97784375000003,"end":450.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.67346875000004,"end":456.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.46159375,"end":460.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.12346875000003,"end":461.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.89971875000003,"end":463.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.58721875000003,"end":467.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.14784375000005,"end":468.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.57784375000006,"end":471.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.82221875000005,"end":473.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.37034375,"end":480.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.18784375,"end":486.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.89159375,"end":487.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.15721875,"end":491.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.27471875000003,"end":495.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.93659375000004,"end":500.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.64471875000004,"end":501.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.97784375000003,"end":505.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.39471875000004,"end":508.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.82909375,"end":509.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.72346875000005,"end":509.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.38159375000004,"end":513.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.99284375,"end":520.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.1772187500001,"end":522.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.08846875,"end":527.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.5772187499999,"end":529.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.31534375,"end":533.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.7278437500001,"end":538.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.9678437499999,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.0859687500001,"end":540.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.8915937500001,"end":541.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.1528437500001,"end":544.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.7053437500001,"end":546.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.32096875,"end":547.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.4428437500001,"end":551.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.49721875,"end":553.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.53096875,"end":553.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.88534375,"end":553.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.90221875,"end":554.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.47596875,"end":554.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.6615937500001,"end":554.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.9822187500001,"end":570.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.2834687500001,"end":573.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.88221875,"end":579.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.0078437500001,"end":585.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.96471875,"end":591.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.6684687500001,"end":593.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.3940937500001,"end":610.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.29409375,"end":612.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.3784687500001,"end":612.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.55971875,"end":615.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.24284375,"end":616.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.05284375,"end":616.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.7278437500001,"end":617.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.21284375,"end":622.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.0559687500001,"end":626.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.61659375,"end":627.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.13096875,"end":631.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.10096875,"end":633.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.10909375,"end":635.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.89784375,"end":639.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.57221875,"end":651.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.06846875,"end":653.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.30846875,"end":657.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.2065937500001,"end":659.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.4172187500001,"end":668.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.2178437500002,"end":676.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.38096875,"end":680.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.90346875,"end":681.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.15221875,"end":683.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.9578437499999,"end":689.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.72909375,"end":690.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.18034375,"end":692.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.55971875,"end":695.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.55096875,"end":699.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.2678437500001,"end":702.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":702.72284375,"end":703.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.1784687500001,"end":709.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":709.8272187500002,"end":711.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.0209687500001,"end":712.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":712.15596875,"end":728.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.1728437500001,"end":712.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.90909375,"end":726.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.42784375,"end":735.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":734.75159375,"end":734.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":734.88659375,"end":745.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":737.45159375,"end":738.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":738.3628437500001,"end":739.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":745.75409375,"end":753.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.97284375,"end":752.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.04409375,"end":759.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.3472187500001,"end":757.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":759.22034375,"end":760.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.08096875,"end":761.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.8190937500001,"end":761.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":761.8359687500001,"end":761.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.8528437500001,"end":762.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":761.92034375,"end":764.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":765.12659375,"end":766.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":765.16034375,"end":765.9365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":766.79721875,"end":768.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":768.8390937500001,"end":774.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.3997187500001,"end":772.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.59784375,"end":778.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.2509687500001,"end":779.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":780.19596875,"end":781.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":781.3603437500001,"end":785.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":785.27534375,"end":786.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.8403437500001,"end":797.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":789.30846875,"end":789.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":792.3797187499999,"end":793.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":797.62784375,"end":799.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":798.1172187500001,"end":799.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.8215937500001,"end":800.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":801.13784375,"end":803.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":804.05721875,"end":807.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":808.2253437500001,"end":809.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":809.0522187500001,"end":811.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.11534375,"end":816.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":817.2197187500001,"end":818.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":817.6584687500001,"end":819.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":819.9365937500002,"end":822.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":821.9109687500002,"end":828.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":829.69034375,"end":834.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":835.3603437500001,"end":837.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":837.55409375,"end":838.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":839.5959687500001,"end":840.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":841.5703437500001,"end":843.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":843.17346875,"end":848.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":846.95346875,"end":848.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":849.1472187500001,"end":854.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":854.1928437500001,"end":856.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":856.1672187500001,"end":859.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":859.50846875,"end":859.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":860.1159687500001,"end":861.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":861.90471875,"end":866.8659687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.129,"end":26.187,"text":"出列席官員主席客請彭主委、楊航、袁副總裁、國發會、詹副主委、爾維好各位首長好怎麼樣把臺灣推動成亞洲資產管理中心其實我對主委大概是寄予厚望那你認真做"},{"start":27.045,"end":53.683,"text":"但是重點是其他的單位不要扯後腿啊。不會。比如說央行,我請問一下袁副總裁。央行會不會扯後腿?我們一開始就,我們完全支持這個案子的推動。那你現在的問題是這樣,有一些臺商回來齁,包括財會50萬而已,你就把人家叫去問三次,現在這個情況還有出現嗎?"},{"start":55.151,"end":69.393,"text":"我不曉得委員講的是哪一個特殊的案例就是一個臺商小朋友去英國念書他在匯錢出去央行就叫了三次他說我孩子去念書就匯錢他說你孩子叫什麼 問東問西 問東問西"},{"start":71.55,"end":98.37,"text":"那個報告應該是銀行銀行基於他自己的那種跟央行應該央行不會直接跟客戶或者是那銀行說是央行要問的啊我想如果個案的問題我想那個請委員提供我們資料我們來處理這個案子我覺得你要變成是一個國際的進進出出的一個中心你要自由化所以主委比如說像50萬、100萬"},{"start":101.434,"end":127.185,"text":"究竟你們查的標準是在哪裡?你覺得兩萬要不要查?那要看情況,我想剛剛那個副總裁已經回答過他們有他們對外匯的一些的指導對,所以你們現在情況標準不明的情況之下很多人乾脆錢就不要匯回來啦你本來就放在新加坡的或是香港或是瑞士的"},{"start":128.736,"end":131.539,"text":"才50萬你問了三次嚇死人了那到底要問什麼呢那你們這幾年來你們都說是怕說有一些洗錢的問題那請問主委還有央行也可以回答去年好了你們查國際的洗錢你們查了幾件金額是多少有查到嗎"},{"start":156.041,"end":176.735,"text":"我們金融機構在對洗錢房子是日常的常態性的業務至於說有什麼具體查獲這個步伐我們在過去似乎沒有什麼重大的案件所以當然很奇怪講得正天嘎響結果查了誰沒有啊一個都沒有啊所以你過度的監管變成"},{"start":183.513,"end":205.513,"text":"金融市場不夠自由化那就造成你要打造成一個亞洲的資產管理中心那就越走越遠了比如說現在全世界都還在推動虛擬貨幣還有很多的衍生性的金融商品那我請問一下主委那你們對這個虛擬貨幣"},{"start":209.484,"end":224.179,"text":"這第一檔在臺灣上市有計畫是什麼時候嗎?美國都有上市了啊我們對於虛擬資產的管理啊現階段還是走在洗房登記洗房管理這個區塊那我們大概"},{"start":227.398,"end":229.338,"text":"現在這個虛擬貨幣的使用是不是未來的一個潮流"},{"start":258.101,"end":269.887,"text":"這個有不同樣的說法那你就講川普的說法好了川普當然是支持的他支持那我看他旁邊有很多的很多人都支持他"},{"start":270.765,"end":287.583,"text":"特別很多年輕人都是支持的所以10月5號就建政章了假設川普當選的話你對於虛擬貨幣或是這些虛擬資產的交易所你會不會大幅度的開放甚至多多鼓勵他們"},{"start":288.357,"end":313.447,"text":"其實我們對一個制度一個所謂新市場的開放不會因為單一事件而做一個大幅我們是看整個長遠的趨勢所以我們在規劃的時候當然會納入各種的考量包括未來VASP未來要監理的構面我們現在都已經慢慢都我們已經開始在做因為我們這個草案在很快今年年底明年年初就要拿出來跟對外的溝通、公聽未來估計喔"},{"start":314.227,"end":318.188,"text":"暫時還沒有把這個虛擬資產這一塊納入到我們的整個的總體規劃但並不代表我們未來不會去鼓勵這個事情只是說我覺得我們現在先從傳統金融開始"},{"start":344.213,"end":362.569,"text":"請問就是虛擬貨幣管理的這一塊金管會裡面幾個人在管理這個確實委員講到重點金管會裡面是我們一個組在兼著做確實我們在人員上是非常吃緊現在是可能不到一個科的同仁在處理這件事情一個科的一個科有幾個人不到一個科那個科也不是專門處理這件事"},{"start":363.601,"end":383.761,"text":"那一個科不是專門處理那一個科有多少人一個科應該5到10個人有5個人喔 哇 那麼多一個科5到10 現在是7個人現在是7個人現在的人的配置齁都是大家覺得不可思議的任務啊比如說保險局好了"},{"start":384.653,"end":403.437,"text":"保險局管的是幾兆是50兆吧是不是36兆36兆的資產那請問保險局裡面的編制幾個人現在我們是100多個那現在還有大概應該20幾位的缺對啊所以這個就你要說要打造一個很大的一個中心結果"},{"start":404.434,"end":433.037,"text":"要將軍沒將軍要兵沒兵那怎麼打你總不能全部事情都主委你來幹嘛當然不會我們就以有限的資源盡量做但是我們也沒有我們要爭取更多的資源你剛剛說36兆的規模那你才100多個人那平均一個人要管多少錢好幾千億對當然當然今晚會說的人管的超過100多兆的市場你們要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草這個是讓大家想差太多了"},{"start":434.876,"end":450.556,"text":"希望人該補的要補齊那另外就是再請一下央行的態度就是對於這個虛擬貨幣這個推動就是未來亞洲的資產管理中心你們是真的是支持還是要假的支持"},{"start":451.701,"end":453.242,"text":"我們希望說這一次不要讓彭教授不要讓彭主委失望兩個金融聯手打造亞洲的資產管理中心"},{"start":479.221,"end":505.275,"text":"是可以期待的好不好大家努力做一下事情不要A做事其他扯後腿剛剛那個幾個委員講阿是黃委員阿21年前都講過阿到現在也是還在講阿我們覺得蠻可惜的啦另外再講一個就是因為時間的關係阿那個主委你有沒有買到周杰倫的票"},{"start":507.441,"end":532.838,"text":"我覺得我應該買不到買不到很多人都打來問說可不可以要一點票我覺得就是到底是什麼地方出了問題有人說是因為財政部財政部麻煩一下財政部看個藝文唱歌表演居然還課娛樂稅所以間接的讓這些黃牛票飆漲"},{"start":536.045,"end":551.271,"text":"市長你慢慢吃我先跟主委再聊一下結果聽說一張票我就不可思議啊報紙是寫說一張票多少30萬這真的還假的啊"},{"start":553.967,"end":570.255,"text":"真的不可思議主委我這樣是想要再把它拉回來如果說這些周杰倫或是幾個大家都很喜歡吳岳天等等他們都表現得那麼好那請問政府要不要鼓勵他們他們可不可以上市"},{"start":571.348,"end":590.926,"text":"就是單一的這個明星當然有人提過像比如說以前也提過我們很多歌星每年發一張片就可以賺幾千萬有沒有辦法把未來現金流折現做個證券化這很多人在國外曾經有聽過這樣的案例不過臺灣我們有一些法律金融資產證券化這可不可以變成是個金融資產這可以再研究不過"},{"start":592.368,"end":617.026,"text":"主委努力一下吧因為每個市場有不同的區隔說不定你以後把周杰倫變成一家證券證券化了以後會鼓勵更多的年輕人這些追星族他想要當明星的各行各業他有不同的一個發展是不是可以研究一下當然我們也期待有這麼一個多元化的那再繞回來就是"},{"start":618.311,"end":638.877,"text":"全臺灣大概說80萬人要搶15萬張的票搶不到另外一個就是像證券方面你管得到新宇航空啊他的證券IPOL事故就大家搶也搶不到啊是不是在這個成銷制度上面有什麼需要改善的空間"},{"start":640.792,"end":668.852,"text":"對 如果說如果說剛剛委員提到這案例我會請那個交易所跟那個我們政局來針對這個個案來看看有沒有任何制度需要做調整的地方那你說比如說SPO的部分跟這個買票一樣有沒有黃牛出現這我不敢那個那個保證因為這我確實沒有研究但是我覺得任何有利可圖的地方都有可能我們希望說你"},{"start":669.69,"end":692.479,"text":"股票的SPO就是股票在市股公開市股的這個方面啊你要讓所有開戶者現在開戶有多少一千多萬人嗎有吧有一千多萬平均讓這些人可以優先來受益而不是少數的人搶到那個票搶到那個股票"},{"start":693.541,"end":708.895,"text":"是不是可以請主委再研究一下我請齊局來針對委員的建議做分析最後次長也來了李次長是不是因為娛樂稅沒有廢除啊間接造成黃牛票的飆漲"},{"start":710.058,"end":724.57,"text":"委員我覺得應該不是因為我們像那些藝文事業的話像以周杰倫這個演唱會的話其實應該可以使用那個促進文化藝術發展促進文化藝術獎助條例裡面他應該有一個可以減半課徵的優惠"},{"start":725.871,"end":733.836,"text":"所以他在大巨蛋辦這一場演出所有去參觀的消費者是不用繳交娛樂稅的"},{"start":756.151,"end":774.811,"text":"黃牛票猖獗 造成大家買不到票本席在這裡 像我們電影票就沒有黃牛啊就是因為 其實是因為我覺得要阻擋黃牛這件事情文創法裡面已經有相關規範了他都已經有明確規範了我跟你打個賭啊 賭一碗牛肉麵"},{"start":776.892,"end":798.056,"text":"你如果背除娛樂稅的話保證他也買不到票周杰倫票大家應該就有比較有機會可以買到他也還是買不到票真的因為你這樣課他都不敢推只有5場而已啊你如果沒有這個制約的話他也許他可以辦10場辦20場啊你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼嗎因為你要課稅的話"},{"start":804.307,"end":821.59,"text":"主辦單位都怕你會查你資珠幣計每張票你都查查到最後他也不敢賺賣太多票因為你會倒算去課他的稅那一場你們可以課多少稅主辦單位也會害怕我辦了一場就賺了好幾億我們明天怎麼申報"},{"start":829.738,"end":856.206,"text":"可是委員其實我們每一場的表演民眾會去搶票都是因為演員很好啊表演很精彩啊如果是不好看的就沒有人要搶了娛樂稅也沒有用我希望你們也想一下因為沒有買到票了現在很歐啊沒有我們是希望我們創法的那個阻擋那個黃牛的這個機制能夠充分發揮他的機制這樣子應該就可以遏止黃牛的娛樂稅還是要廢除了謝謝"},{"start":860.094,"end":861.055,"text":"謝謝羅明財委員謝謝次長我們拭目以待請邱志偉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1371,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（13時23分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員。主席，可不可以請彭主委……"],["主席：彭主委。"],["羅委員明才：央行嚴副總裁……"],["主席：嚴副總裁。"],["羅委員明才：還有國發會。"],["主席：國發會詹副主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：各位首長好。怎麼樣把臺灣推動成為亞洲資產管理中心，其實我對主委大概是寄予厚望，你認真做，但是重點是其他的單位不要扯後腿。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會，他們……"],["羅委員明才：比如央行，我請問一下嚴副總裁，央行會不會扯後腿？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我們一開始就完全支持這個案子的推動。"],["羅委員明才：現在的問題是這樣，有一些臺商回來，包括才匯50萬而已，你就把人家叫去問3次，現在這個情況還有出現嗎？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我不曉得委員講的是哪一個特殊的案例。"],["羅委員明才：就是一個臺商的小朋友去英國念書，他匯錢出去，央行就叫了3次，他說孩子去念書就匯錢，你們問他孩子叫什麼、問東問西、問東問西，可不可以拜託啊！"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，那個應該是銀行基於他自己的那種……央行不會直接跟客戶或者是……"],["羅委員明才：銀行說是央行要問的啊。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我想如果是個案的問題，請委員提供我們資料，我們來處理這個案子。"],["羅委員明才：好。我是覺得要變成是一個國際進進出出的中心，你要自由化，所以主委，比如像50萬、100萬，究竟你們查的標準是在哪裡？你覺得2萬要不要查？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那要看情況，我想剛剛副總裁已經回答過，他們有他們對外匯的職掌。"],["羅委員明才：對，所以你們現在標準不明的情況之下，很多人乾脆錢就不要匯回來了。本來把錢放在新加坡、香港或者瑞士的，才匯50萬，你問了3次，嚇死人了。到底要問什麼呢？這幾年來你們都說是怕有一些洗錢的問題，請問主委，還有央行也可以回答，去年好了，你們查國際的洗錢查了幾件？金額是多少？有查到嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們金融機構在對洗錢防制是日常的常態性業務，至於有什麼具體查獲不法，我們在過去似乎沒有什麼重大的案件。"],["羅委員明才：對啊，所以大家很奇怪，講得震天價響，結果查了誰？沒有啊，一個都沒有啊。所以你過度的監管，變成金融市場不夠自由化，那就造成原本要打造成一個亞洲的資產管理中心，結果卻越走越遠。比如現在全世界都還在推動虛擬貨幣，還有很多衍生性的金融商品，我請問一下主委，你們對虛擬貨幣的第一檔在臺灣上市，有計劃是什麼時候嗎？美國都有上市了啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們對於虛擬資產的管理，現階段還是走在洗防登記、洗防管理這個區塊，接下來如果明年6月然後通過專法，明年如果專法順利地通過的話，對於虛擬資產這個行業，我們就會有一個正式對這個產業監管的法律政策出來，我們會正式對這個東西做一個系統性、而且類似像各位看到對金融機構的管理。"],["羅委員明才：現在虛擬貨幣的使用是不是未來的潮流？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個有不同樣的說法，但是確實……"],["羅委員明才：好，那你就講川普的說法好了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：川普當然是支持的。"],["羅委員明才：他支持，我看他旁邊有很多人都支持他，特別很多年輕人都是支持的，所以11月5日就見真章了。假設川普當選的話，你對於虛擬貨幣或是虛擬資產的交易所會不會大幅度地開放，甚至多多鼓勵他們？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們對一個制度、所謂新市場的開放，不會因為單一事件而做一個大幅……我們是看整個長遠的趨勢，所以我們在規劃的時候，當然會納入各種的考量，包括VASP未來要監理的部分，我們現在都已經慢慢開始在做，我們的草案很快在今年年底、明年年初就要拿出來，進行對外的溝通、公聽。"],["羅委員明才：未來估計虛擬資產的交易市場規模會有多大？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個就看怎麼定義，就是我們現在虛擬資產裡面的……"],["羅委員明才：就是你用亞洲資產管理中心未來發展的願景來定義。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們現在16項計畫裡面暫時還沒有把虛擬資產這一塊納入到整個的總體規劃，但並不代表我們未來不會去鼓勵這個事情，只是我覺得我們現在先從傳統金融開始。"],["羅委員明才：好，請問虛擬貨幣管理這一塊，金管會裡面有幾個人在管理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員講到重點，金管會裡面是我們一個組在兼著做，確實我們在人員上是非常吃緊，現在可能不到一個科的同仁在處理這件事情。"],["羅委員明才：一個科，一個科有幾個人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不到一個科，那個科也不是專門處理這件事。"],["羅委員明才：一個科不是專門處理，一個科有多少人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：一個科應該5到10個人。"],["羅委員明才：有5個人，那麼多！"],["彭主任委員金隆：一個科5到10人，現在是7個人。"],["羅委員明才：主委，你們現在的人員配置都讓大家覺得是不可思議的任務，譬如，保險局好了，保險局管的是幾兆？是50兆，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：36兆。"],["羅委員明才：36兆的資產，請問保險局裡面的編制幾個人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是一百多個，還有大概二十幾位的缺額。"],["羅委員明才：所以你說要打造一個很大的中心，結果要將軍沒將軍、要兵沒兵，要怎麼打？總不能全部的事情都主委你來做吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不會，我們就以有限的資源儘量做，但是我們要爭取更多的資源。"],["羅委員明才：你剛剛說36兆的規模，才一百多個人，平均一個人要管多少錢？好幾千億耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然金管會所有人管的超過一百多兆的資產。"],["羅委員明才：你們要馬兒好，又要馬兒不吃草，這個讓大家覺得差太多了，希望該補的人要補齊。另外，再請教央行的態度，對於虛擬貨幣的推動、未來的亞洲資產管理中心，你們是真的支持，還是假的支持？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：不管是楊總裁或者是我們的報告都已經很明確講，過去在推動財富管理的時候，我們也配合金管會做了很大的調整，未來發展亞洲財富金融中心的時候，我想我們也會持同樣的態度。"],["羅委員明才：我們希望這一次不要讓彭教授、彭主委失望，兩個金融聯手打造亞洲資產管理中心是可以期待的，好不好？大家努力做一下事情，不要A在做事的時候，其他扯後腿，剛剛幾個委員也講，黃委員21年前就講過，到現在也是還在講，我們覺得滿可惜的。另外，因為時間的關係，主委，你有沒有買到周杰倫的票？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得我應該買不到。"],["羅委員明才：很多人都打來問可不可以要一點票，到底是什麼地方出了問題？有人說是因為財政部。財政部麻煩一下。"],["主席：請財政部次長。"],["羅委員明才：有人說看藝文唱歌表演居然還要課娛樂稅，所以就間接地讓這些黃牛票飆漲，我覺得不可思議，報紙上寫一張票要30萬，這是真的還假的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：真的不可思議。"],["羅委員明才：主委，我現在想要再把它拉回來、繞回來，如果周杰倫或者大家都很喜歡的五月天等等，他們都表現得那麼好，請問政府要不要鼓勵他們，他們可不可以上市？就是單一的明星……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然有人提過，比如，以前也提過我們很多歌星每年發一張片就可以賺幾千萬，有沒有辦法把未來的現金流折現作為證券化，很多人在國外曾經有聽過這樣的案例，不過依據臺灣的法律，如金融資產證券化，這可不可以變成是一個金融資產要再研究。不過理論上來說……"],["羅委員明才：主委，努力一下吧！因為每個市場有不同的區隔，說不定你以後把周杰倫變成一家證券，證券化以後會鼓勵更多的年輕人，這些追星族或想要當明星的各行各業有不同的發展，是不是可以研究一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我們也期待有這麼一個多元化的方向。"],["羅委員明才：我們再繞回來，全臺灣大概80萬人要搶15萬張票搶不到，另外，證券方面你管得到，星宇航空的證券IPO要釋股，結果大家搶也搶不到，在承銷制度上面是不是有什麼需要改善的空間？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員提到的這個案例，我會請交易所和證期局針對這個個案來看看有沒有任何制度需要做調整的地方。"],["羅委員明才：比如，SPO的部分跟買票一樣有沒有黃牛出現？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我不敢保證，因為我確實沒有研究，但是我覺得任何有利可圖的地方都有可能有這樣的現象。"],["羅委員明才：我們希望股票SPO，就是股票在公開釋股方面，你要讓所有的開戶者，現在開戶的有多少？一千多萬人嗎？平均讓這些人可以優先受益，而不是少數的人搶到那個股票，是不是可以請主委再研究一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我請證期局針對委員的建議做詳細分析。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。最後，李次長，是不是因為娛樂稅沒有廢除，間接造成黃牛票的飆漲？"],["李次長慶華：委員，我覺得應該不是。"],["羅委員明才：真的嗎？"],["李次長慶華：因為那些藝文事業，像周杰倫演唱會，其實應該可以適用文化藝術獎助及促進條例裡面有一個可以減半課徵的優惠，所以應該不是娛樂稅的問題。"],["羅委員明才：所以他在大巨蛋辦這一場演出，所有去參觀的消費者是不用繳交娛樂稅的嗎？"],["李次長慶華：他是減半課稅，臺北市政府會依照那個條例讓他減半課稅。"],["羅委員明才：減半還是要課稅啊！"],["李次長慶華：但是那個金額真的很微小，剛才委員講的黃牛問題，其實在文化創意產業發展法裡面已經有相關的規範，對於這些演唱會都可以懲罰的。"],["羅委員明才：現在有人說是因為你們一直要課娛樂稅，造成黃牛票猖獗，造成大家買不到票。"],["李次長慶華：委員這樣講不公平啦！"],["羅委員明才：本席在這裡跟你……"],["李次長慶華：像電影票就沒有黃牛。"],["羅委員明才：因為現在看電影的少。"],["李次長慶華：我覺得要阻擋黃牛這件事情，文創法裡面已經有相關規範了，都已經有明確規範了。"],["羅委員明才：次長，我跟你打個賭，賭一碗牛肉麵，你如果廢除娛樂稅的話，保證……"],["李次長慶華：他也買不到票。"],["羅委員明才：保證周杰倫的票大家應該就比較有機會可以買到。"],["李次長慶華：他也還是買不到票。"],["羅委員明才：真的，因為你這樣課，他都不敢推，只有5場而已，如果沒有這個制約的話，也許他可以辦10場、辦20場，你知道為什麼嗎？因為你要課稅的話，主辦單位都怕你會查，錙銖必較，每一張票你都查。"],["李次長慶華：不會！因為他們都是自動報繳的。"],["羅委員明才：他也不敢賣太多票，因為你會倒算去課他的稅，一場你們可以課多少稅？"],["李次長慶華：這個我不太清楚，因為是臺北市在課徵的。"],["羅委員明才：主辦單位也會害怕，我辦了一場就賺了好幾億，明天怎麼申報啊！"],["李次長慶華：可是委員，其實每一場表演民眾會去搶票都是因為演員很好、表演很精彩，如果是不好看的就沒有人要搶，課娛樂稅也沒有用，也是一樣。"],["羅委員明才：我希望你們也想一下，因為沒有買到票的現在很嘔。"],["李次長慶華：我們希望文創法阻擋黃牛的機制能夠充分發揮作用，這樣子應該就可以遏止黃牛。"],["羅委員明才：娛樂稅還是要廢除，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員、謝謝次長，我們拭目以待。","請邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156166","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156166","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b944231aacd1aad361a854d634de4a24c76d287313e08c4b3a515b23fefa1fd695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"13:17:31 - 13:23:44","影片長度":"00:06:13","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:17:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:23:44+08:00","duration":373,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":2.8997187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.00096875,"end":16.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.05784375,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.38221875,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.242218750000003,"end":28.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.465343750000002,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.65471875,"end":33.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.42659375,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.46034375,"end":33.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.36284375,"end":39.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.704093750000006,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.83471875,"end":44.445968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.90159375,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.94284375,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.70909375,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.99534375,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.11721875,"end":74.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.15846875000001,"end":78.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.93846875,"end":80.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.84534375,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.57034375,"end":90.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.55721875,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.24034375000001,"end":94.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.21034375,"end":97.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.18034375,"end":100.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.77471875,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.79159375,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.45221875,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.84846875000001,"end":122.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.59409375000001,"end":128.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.65221875,"end":133.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.17034375,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.92471875,"end":141.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.97096875,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.82284375,"end":149.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.86846875,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.24784375000002,"end":159.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.68534375000002,"end":160.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.93409375000002,"end":163.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.88721875000002,"end":168.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.47721875000002,"end":170.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.53596875000002,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.85596875000002,"end":182.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.21346875,"end":183.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.14159375,"end":184.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.57596875000002,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.26346875000002,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.52034375000002,"end":191.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.06846875000002,"end":202.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.11909375000002,"end":192.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.30471875,"end":193.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.09221875,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.00284375,"end":209.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.87159375000002,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.83346875,"end":211.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.89659375000002,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.96346875,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.09346875000003,"end":223.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.96659375000002,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.29534375,"end":225.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.18971875000003,"end":233.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.66534375,"end":238.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.44096875000002,"end":239.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.57159375,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.95909375000002,"end":247.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.94159375,"end":252.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.56534375,"end":253.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.74659375000002,"end":256.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.49721875,"end":259.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.20971875000004,"end":262.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.50471875,"end":265.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.77846875,"end":266.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.92596875000004,"end":268.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.30534375,"end":272.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.32596875,"end":274.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.97534375000004,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.88096875,"end":288.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.76221875000005,"end":289.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.97721875,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.71971875,"end":297.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.79034375000003,"end":303.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.19471875,"end":312.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.23534375,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.02284375,"end":325.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.03971875,"end":322.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.05596875000003,"end":335.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.26971875000004,"end":339.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.74159375000005,"end":343.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.03221875,"end":363.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.40346875,"end":344.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.79909375,"end":350.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.02971875000003,"end":359.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.04221875,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.38784375,"end":362.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.81784375,"end":369.05346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.457,"end":14.54,"text":"打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心其實過去來有很多歷史的一些規劃那主委這一次我們有什麼樣的決心跟作為能夠落實這個能夠成功"},{"start":17.056,"end":20.998,"text":"怎麼樣不一樣 主委要不要講得更清楚"},{"start":37.398,"end":60.652,"text":"臺灣的資本市場絕對不是今天這個樣貌臺灣的產業在全球的能見度跟競爭力絕對不是這個樣子臺灣的人力資源絕對不是這樣子臺灣的投資動能跟財富狀況絕對不是這樣也就是說這20年來我們在經濟的表現我們產業的表現上面甚至於我們在資金的部分包括這幾年的資金狀況我們都相當良好所以應該用這樣的最佳時機來推動這樣"},{"start":61.633,"end":64.494,"text":"臺灣的財富累積到這麼多為什麼跟其他的地區由我們的金融機構或者由國人來管理的財富竟然低到這種"},{"start":85.638,"end":100.407,"text":"讓人家幾乎失去信心的這樣一個程度我想所以這個都還有很大很大的空間所以說我們在推動這個亞洲資產管理中心的時候確實我們沒有所以主委對這一次的這個推動我想是具有信心的當然我們只是在於說我們能夠進步多少絕對不會退步"},{"start":101.206,"end":102.146,"text":"現在目前整個進度狀況怎麼樣?"},{"start":122.642,"end":123.382,"text":"預定在什麼時候會提出這個專區?"},{"start":144.434,"end":158.743,"text":"我們想我們的規劃是應該是明年上半年可以有個初步的設置就是由高雄市政府來提出嗎是我們一起就是由金管會跟高雄市政府因為高雄市政府提出他這邊能夠提供的一些行政誘因"},{"start":159.864,"end":174.043,"text":"我們這邊來做一些政策上面的一個促進跟鬆綁然後讓我們的金融機構能夠到那邊去設立一個實體的專區然後透過這樣的群聚的方式我們來嘗試做一個能夠跟境內跟境外做一個連結的這樣一個"},{"start":175.325,"end":191.622,"text":"地點應該就是在我現在的圖片顯現大概搖到新灣區這邊嗎?因為這裡有智慧科技創新園區高原園區都在這個裡面我得到的訊息是他應該是非常理想的一個地點他有一個幾個樓層所以未來應該是會用大樓群的方式去做處理嗎?比較聚集的這個群聚先開始"},{"start":192.342,"end":205.958,"text":"對 那未來的部分有些部分是由高雄市政府來做比如說有些的優惠甚至有些的部分是高雄市政府的協助那中央的部分呢金管會能做什麼樣的處理比如說中央的部分呢我們對於像比如他們設計點我們像我們中央對"},{"start":207.039,"end":209.6,"text":"那這樣子他到底的競爭的誘因主委怎麼看他跟新加坡香港甚至於跟未來的日本的部分他的競爭誘因呢"},{"start":233.749,"end":233.769,"text":"賴瑞議員"},{"start":252.619,"end":253.961,"text":"臺灣很多的國營在新加坡設有據點"},{"start":269.458,"end":296.349,"text":"其實很多客戶在海外其實就可以做這樣一個連結我們還有把那個OBU的部分根據我們OBU條例裡面我們可以做在OBU裡面可以做資產配置其實我們希望透過這樣把它打造成境外的資產管理的這樣的業務透過這個很多元的結合過去從來沒有做過這個嘗試我們想試試看能夠形成一個聚落然後在高雄這個地方其他的縣市也非常歡迎提出我們這樣我們都會全力來協助"},{"start":297.83,"end":320.24,"text":"所以等於是這樣把新加坡那邊他本來是到新加坡去的把這樣有機會再導引回到臺灣回到高雄來對部分慢慢的假設在臺灣就有這麼專業的人幫你打理國際跟國內的投資其實我們盡量的讓這些人能夠留在臺灣另外像臺商的部分也有相當多就是說本身的部分他們的資金或者是臺商在回臺的一些投資甚至於在"},{"start":320.76,"end":322.842,"text":"主委那我請教那現在有沒有你們所了解已經有業者有意願來做進駐的"},{"start":339.718,"end":340.998,"text":"謝謝賴瑞榮委員謝謝主委接著我們請羅賓才委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1317,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（13時17分）謝謝主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，辛苦了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是要詢問，打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，其實過去以來有很多類似的規劃，主委，這一次我們有什麼樣的決心跟作為能夠成功的落實這個計畫？"],["彭主任委員金隆：很多人問我，你有沒有信心？我說，我確實有信心，因為我們看到臺灣的狀況跟以前、二十幾年前提出來的臺灣很不一樣。再來，我們這次的作法是一步一步來做，所以我……"],["賴委員瑞隆：怎麼樣不一樣，主委要不要講得更清楚一點？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說，假設我們現在談二十年前，我們隨便舉，臺灣的資本市場絕對不是今天這個樣貌。再來，臺灣的產業在全球的能見度跟競爭力絕對不是這個樣子。再來，臺灣的人力資源絕對不是這樣子，還有就是臺灣的投資動能跟財富狀況絕對不是這樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也就是說，這二十年來，我們在經濟的表現、產業的表現，甚至於在資金的部分，包括這幾年資金狀況我們都相當良好，所以應該用這樣的最佳時機來推動這樣一個政策。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，假設我們以臺灣的股市來看的話，我們今年度到現在的報酬率已經將近30%，幾乎是亞洲之冠。當然這中間代表整個臺灣經濟的轉型，還有剛才有很多委員指正，臺灣的財富累積到這麼多，為什麼跟其他地區相比，由我們的金融機構或者由國人來管理的財富竟然低到這種讓人幾乎失去信心的程度？"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個都還有很大、很大的努力空間。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，所以我們在推動在亞洲資產管理中心的時候，確實我們沒有……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我想主委對這次的推動是具有信心的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們只是在於我們能夠進步多少，但絕對不會退步。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我也看到高雄亞灣看來已經做了一些相關的準備，也準備了一段時間，未來提出來以後，應該是最有機會成為第一個，當然未來也不會只有一個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，我們希望全國一起來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，但是這會是最快的速度，因為已經在做相關的推動當中了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：目前整個進度狀況怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是這樣，金管會這邊已經盤點過我們所有相關的規定以及整個相關的，我們未來建置的架構大概也出來了，我們也跟高雄市政府做過很多次的協調會，我也跟陳市長見過面，也討論過基本的架構，如果快的話，我們會趕快的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：預訂在什麼時候會提出這個專區？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的規劃應該是明年上半年可以有個初步的設置。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是由高雄市政府來提出，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是我們一起，就是由金管會跟高雄市政府，因為高雄市政府提出它這邊能夠提供的一些行政誘因，我們這邊來做一些政策上面的促進跟鬆綁，讓我們的金融機構能夠到那邊去設立一個實體的專區，並透過這樣群聚的方式，嘗試做一個能夠讓境內跟境外做連結的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：地點應該就在我現在簡報圖片顯現的亞洲新灣區這邊……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為這裡有智慧科技創新園區、高雄軟體園區都在這個裡面。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我得到的訊息是這樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：它應該是非常理想的一個地點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它有幾個樓層現在都是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以未來應該是會用大樓群的方式去做處理，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比較聚集的群聚先開始。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，未來有些部分是由高雄市政府來做比如有些優惠，甚至有些部分是高雄市政府的協助，那中央的部分呢？金管會能做什麼樣的處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：中央的部分，我們對於像比如在那邊設據點，我們中央對金融機構據點的設置有比較多的規範，舉個例子，你可以到那邊設據點，我可以不算到你的據點的範圍，其實就有助於金融機構設置一個獨立的據點在那邊，我想這是我們可以來做的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以是法規跟政策上的鬆綁？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，就不是稅法上面的，我們純粹是這個。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這樣子，對於它競爭的誘因，主委怎麼看？跟新加坡、香港、甚至於跟未來的日本相較，它的競爭誘因呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我覺得這個東西的發展要看整個產業的投入跟整個政策的匯集，當然，我們也希望先有個開始，接下來我們有很多政策的誘因，比如這裡面我們先把私人銀行跟OBU結合在這邊，OBU是專門做境外資產的運作，私人銀行是做境內跟境外都可以，然後再搭配我們未來的家族辦公室如果在那邊設置，這樣的話就有可能同時處理我們境內資產的管理跟境外的資產。我剛才有報告過，臺灣很多的國銀在新加坡設有據點，其實很多客戶在海外就可以做這樣的連結，還有在OBU的部分，根據我們的OBU條例，我們可以在OBU裡面做資產配置，其實我們希望透過這樣，把它打造成境外的資產管理業務。透過這樣很多元的結合，過去從來沒有做過這個嘗試，我們想試試看，希望能夠形成一個聚落，然後在高雄這個地方開展，至於其他的縣市，也非常歡迎提出，我們都會全力來協助。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以等於把本來是到新加坡去的，有機會再導引回到臺灣、回到高雄來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，部分慢慢地。假設在臺灣就有這麼專業的人幫他們打理國際跟國內的投資，其實我們儘量地讓這些人能夠留在臺灣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，像臺商的部分應該也有相當多了，就是本身的資金或者是臺商回臺的一些投資，這個應該也是我們努力的方向吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，海外的資金部分，我們就透過境外分行那一塊現階段來做努力，未來比如它真的願意實質匯入境內的話，這個問題會比較複雜一點，我們在下一階段來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我請教，現在就你們所了解，有沒有業者已經有意願來做進駐？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以我們的了解，業者的意願滿高的，我們也做過調查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：滿高的，所以他們本身已經有意願來這樣做了，這樣看起來成功的機率是相當地高。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我覺得機率滿高的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望儘快來完成這個設置，成為第一個據點，讓大家也看到臺灣在這一塊其實開始可以有具體的一些進展。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：明年上半年希望很快地看到這樣的好消息。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員，謝謝主委。","接著我們請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156165","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156165","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b2c3cc8422728f59a1a854d634de4a24c76d287313e08c4b3286ec5ce099167b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"13:12:06 - 13:17:25","影片長度":"00:05:19","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:12:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:17:25+08:00","duration":319,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.96284375,"end":26.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.18721875,"end":54.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.385343750000004,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.00159375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.03034375,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.74659375,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.46784375,"end":94.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.96971875000001,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.57659375,"end":101.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.00659375000001,"end":104.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.85846875,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.64284375000001,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.17721875000001,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.42096875000001,"end":151.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.61471875,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.02534375000002,"end":172.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.47659375,"end":172.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.54409375,"end":178.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.10846875000001,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.25534375,"end":191.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.55471875,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.10221875000002,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.53659375,"end":199.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.74659375000002,"end":208.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.23096875000002,"end":205.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.59346875,"end":216.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.45284375000003,"end":233.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.76659375000003,"end":235.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.08284375000002,"end":235.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.26846875,"end":284.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.10034375000004,"end":288.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.45846875,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.48284375000003,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.56659375000004,"end":299.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.49471875,"end":300.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.33846875,"end":304.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.84846875,"end":308.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.59909375,"end":307.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.74659375000005,"end":308.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.26971875000004,"end":309.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.56471875,"end":313.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.38284375,"end":314.17596875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.133,"end":20.081,"text":"主委都辛苦了主委您好向您確認一個最新的消息洗錢防治修正草案今年8月3號上路以後為配合修法VSP的業者從原先的法尊聲明做法改為登記制本來這個登記制是應該要1月1號上線"},{"start":26.277,"end":46.455,"text":"那這個其實這個差異很大因為改了登記制之前他有可能可以用行政法罰錢了事但是如果改成登記制以後他如果有問題的去經營業務會被處以刑責這是一個非常非常大的一個差異但是主委我們理解這個加強監管力道的做法保護我們的群眾"},{"start":47.256,"end":74.248,"text":"那VSP的業者也都願意配合也都理解但現在好像傳出行政院一聲令下在特定政委或者特定人士的壓力之下今晚會有要將登記制的實施提成由明年的1月1號提前到12月1號整整提前一個月這和老師突然宣布這個提前一個月的論文口試還是做各種這種時間的調一個月真的差異很大這個"},{"start":76.37,"end":94.26,"text":"這個真的有點不太一樣所以請主委說明一下有沒有迫於行政院的壓力VSP的登記制要提前一個月施行真的有這件事嗎事報委員不是迫於啦因為主要我想大家這個社會氛圍知道因為當初這部法律也是在打詐釋法的那個內容之內"},{"start":95.08,"end":115.929,"text":"所以我們配合因為大家國人對於這個防詐非常殷切希望這些法律能夠趕快上路所以他們也是希望說這部分能夠提前能夠讓這個打詐是法的法律效率提前所以這個當然是包括在裡面說我們也接到通知確實是我們會這個到10月30號所以12月1號現在目前規劃是這樣"},{"start":117.256,"end":135.747,"text":"希望還是不要這樣子倉促施行因為這種朝令夕改的做法其實是有違信賴保護的原則業者沒有辦法信賴政府他怎麼可能安心的做生意再進一步保護民眾呢如果我們的政府都不保護業者的話業者很聽話他願意配合但是因為特定人或特定的做法"},{"start":136.207,"end":151.302,"text":"一句話大轉彎大家怎麼能相信主委可不可以積極再向行政院爭取讓登記制按照原定的實施期程不要朝令繫改去打擊新興產業我給你一個例子我剛從這個交通委員會過來說到打炸"},{"start":152.899,"end":172.04,"text":"倉促上路是會很有問題的啦前陣子他們上了這個通查網10月14號我們質詢完發現裡面可能有很多侵權的問題反而是政策在執行的時候會傷害到人這件事情其實非常危險知識體大諸位可不可以考慮再向行政院爭取一下按照原定啟程實施"},{"start":172.888,"end":192.961,"text":"我想委員剛剛的指正我會反映這個意見但是我跟委員稍微說明一下我們這個法律它有3個月之內要去登記然後登記9個月以後才會實施所以它本來就有預留一個蠻長的緩衝期而且在這個過程當中我也非常感謝這些VASP業者確實很努力這點我們要肯定"},{"start":193.581,"end":197.144,"text":"主委拜託冒險執鑒為什麼因為你們要繳交的資料裡面有洗房內部控制機和支付這是要會計師簽證現在年底到了這個複雜的大家都想把事情做好"},{"start":219.224,"end":219.464,"text":"是 我們反映這意見 謝謝"},{"start":235.643,"end":248.22,"text":"而且還有一個很重要是人力的問題我們在總時詢的時候就提過了其實現在VSP業者相關在金管會內部的人力其實是有所不足的院長當天也都理解了我覺得這是一個原因因為業者幾十家要來做這個登記"},{"start":250.723,"end":268.171,"text":"其實量體很大內部的業務其實量體也非常的大業者很辛苦大家也都很辛苦倉促上路絕對是非常高風險的事所以拜託主委努力一下再來幾個問題我就很快速的帶過第一個是最重要的"},{"start":269.412,"end":284.427,"text":"就是這個我們在這個VSP的這件事情提前一個月實施其實馬上就凸顯這個人力需求的問題我們總諮詢說啦行政院提出人力需求金管會有沒有準備要什麼時候向行政院提出人力的需求"},{"start":285.871,"end":312.705,"text":"這點的話我們在內部在盤點因為我們上次補充了人力現在都還沒有到位因為找不到人是具有困難的我們再想辦法當然未來規劃這個明年會專法設立勢必這個一定要開始政府人力的需求有一定的程序我們會盡快提出這樣的需求希望金管會提出這樣我們才能給予支持行政院也一起來支持謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝葛如君委員謝謝接著我們請賴玉龍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1300,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（13時12分）謝謝主席，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，都辛苦了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委您好。向您確認一個最新的消息，洗錢防制修正草案今年8月3日上路以後，為配合修法，VASP的業者從原先的法遵聲明作法改為登記制，本來這個登記制應該要1月1日上線，其實這個差異很大，因為在改登記制之前，他有可能可以用行政罰罰錢了事；但如果改成登記制以後，他如果有問題了還去經營業務，就會被處以刑責，這是一個非常、非常大的差異。但是主委，我們理解加強監管力道的作法是為了保護我們的群眾，VASP的業者也都願意配合，也都能理解，但現在好像傳出行政院一聲令下，在特定政委或者特定人士的壓力之下，金管會有要將登記制的實施提前，由明年的1月1日提前到12月1日，整整提前一個月，這和老師突然宣布提前一個月論文口試，還是做各種時間的調整，一個月真的差異很大，這個真的有點不太一樣。所以請主委說明一下，有沒有迫於行政院的壓力，VASP的登記制要提前一個月施行？真的有這件事嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，不是迫於，我想大家都知道社會的氛圍，因為當初這部法律也是在打詐四法的內容之內，所以我們是配合，因為國人對於防詐非常殷切，希望這些法律能夠趕快上路，所以他們也是希望這部分能夠提前，能夠讓打詐四法的法律效力提前，所以這個當然是包括在裡面，我們也接到通知，確實是到10月30日，所以目前規劃是12月1日。"],["葛委員如鈞：希望還是不要這樣子倉促施行，因為這種朝令夕改的作法其實是有違信賴保護原則，業者沒有辦法信賴政府，他怎麼可能安心地做生意，再進一步保護民眾呢？如果我們的政府都不保護業者的話，業者很聽話，他願意配合啊！但是因為特定人或特定的作法，一句話就大轉彎，大家怎麼能相信？主委可不可以積極再向行政院爭取，讓登記制按照原定的實施期程，不要朝令夕改去打擊新興產業？我給你一個例子，我剛剛從交通委員會過來，說到打詐，倉促上路是會很有問題的。前陣子他們上了通查網，10月14日我們質詢完發現裡面可能有很多侵權的問題，反而是政策在執行的時候會傷害到人，這件事情其實非常危險，茲事體大。主委，可不可以考慮再向行政院爭取一下，按照原定期程實施？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於委員剛才的指正，我會反映這個意見，但我跟委員稍微說明一下，這個法律三個月之內要去登記，然後登記九個月以後才會實施，所以它本來就有預留一個滿長的緩衝期，而且在這個過程當中，我也非常感謝這些VASP的業者確實很努力，這點我們要肯定。然後我們在過程當中，雖然在預告，但我們也有把相關的表格文件都給他們，我想這個部分我們有儘量做到降低他的衝擊。剛剛委員提到的，我們會……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，拜託，我要冒險直諫，為什麼？因為你們要繳交的資料裡面，有洗防內部控制稽核資格，這是要會計師簽證的，現在年底到了，這個複雜的，大家都想把事情做好，如果一下子匆促上路做不好，大家都是lose、lose、lose，真的是要冒險直諫，不要影響人民對政府的信任，否則業界、業者都要出走，這其實是一個很大的問題，拜託幫忙講一下好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會反映這個意見，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：而且還有一個很重要的是人力的問題，我們在總質詢的時候就提過了，其實現在VASP業者相關在金管會內部的人力是有所不足的，院長當天也都理解了，我覺得這是一個原因，因為幾十家業者要來做登記，其實量體很大，內部業務的量體也非常的大，業者很辛苦，大家也都很辛苦，倉促上路絕對是非常高風險的事，所以拜託主委努力一下。","再來幾個問題，我就很快速的帶過。最重要的是，我們在VASP提前一個月實施這件事情，其實馬上就凸顯了人力需求的問題。我們總質詢說，行政院提出人力需求，金管會有沒有準備要在什麼時候向行政院提出人力的需求？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這一點的話，我們內部在盤點，因為我們上次補充的人力到現在都還沒有到位，因為找不到人，是有困難的，我們再來想辦法。當然明年會專法設立，勢必這個一定要開始，政府人力的需求有一定的程序，我們會儘快提出這樣的需求。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，希望金管會提出，這樣我們才能給予支持，行政院也一起來支持，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。","接著請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156164","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156164","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bc187d31f5655a4691a854d634de4a24c76d287313e08c4b3f82bc5d892225b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"13:03:19 - 13:11:58","影片長度":"00:08:39","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:03:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:11:58+08:00","duration":519,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3134687500000002,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.075968750000001,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.953468750000003,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.15909375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.37284375,"end":26.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.840968750000002,"end":28.296593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.63409375,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.625343750000003,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.06096875,"end":51.398468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.398468750000006,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.68534375,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.84971875,"end":58.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.806593750000005,"end":62.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.16034375,"end":70.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.53471875000001,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.50909375,"end":75.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.33971875,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.62971875000001,"end":89.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.94096875000001,"end":95.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.84721875000001,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.50096875000001,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.74534375,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.68096875,"end":115.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.72596875,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.68346875,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.98284375,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.58159375000001,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.33659375,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.19221875,"end":145.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.40534375000001,"end":142.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.03346875,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.71596875,"end":154.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.06159375000001,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.97596875000002,"end":163.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.27971875,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.54784375,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.98221875000002,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.04971875,"end":180.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.79596875000001,"end":185.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.01034375,"end":189.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.15346875,"end":188.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.01409375,"end":193.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.21659375000002,"end":189.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.24159375000002,"end":195.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.63346875000002,"end":195.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.22409375,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":201.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.45534375000003,"end":204.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.26909375000002,"end":212.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.01909375000002,"end":211.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.36909375000002,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.66721875000002,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.66221875000002,"end":230.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.67471875,"end":230.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.59409375,"end":230.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.79221875000002,"end":239.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.84159375000002,"end":243.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.19534375,"end":245.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.37221875,"end":253.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.93659375000001,"end":253.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.59034375000002,"end":255.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.66596875,"end":262.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.38221875,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.45096875,"end":287.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.78346875,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.94784375,"end":296.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.45721875000004,"end":299.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.41034375000004,"end":299.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.11909375000005,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.12721875,"end":303.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.01721875000004,"end":306.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.53159375,"end":307.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.56096875000003,"end":309.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.51846875,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.73784375,"end":312.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.14659375,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.10846875000004,"end":319.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.14971875000003,"end":321.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.19159375000004,"end":325.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.68909375000004,"end":328.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.32159375000003,"end":332.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.12659375000004,"end":338.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.14346875,"end":333.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.52659375,"end":339.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.82596875,"end":343.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.11221875,"end":346.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.89659375,"end":349.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.20409375,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.31784375,"end":356.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.25784375,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.09284375000004,"end":362.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.72534375000004,"end":363.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.94034375,"end":373.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.16346875000005,"end":367.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.83846875,"end":368.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.96034375000005,"end":371.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.56346875,"end":380.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.28471875,"end":374.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.86596875000004,"end":381.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.97971875,"end":388.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.93221875,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.50159375000004,"end":398.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.34034375000005,"end":399.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.50034375,"end":407.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.23784375,"end":404.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.47409375,"end":404.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.35534375000003,"end":418.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.42971875,"end":418.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.96971875,"end":426.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.74096875000004,"end":425.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.22596875000005,"end":429.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.14096875,"end":434.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.79846875000004,"end":441.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.26596875,"end":446.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.42596875000004,"end":444.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.17221875,"end":453.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.22596875000005,"end":456.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.05659375000005,"end":460.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.48221875,"end":470.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.26659375,"end":463.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.96159375,"end":474.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.64034375000006,"end":477.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.62721875000005,"end":478.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.52159375,"end":493.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.10159375,"end":494.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.97471875,"end":496.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.62846875,"end":508.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.17096875000004,"end":508.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.47471875,"end":508.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.50846875,"end":508.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.09471875,"end":513.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.3515937500001,"end":514.14471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.584,"end":4.54,"text":"主席請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":9.547,"end":38.023,"text":"黃主委午安我們又有這個機會公開來討論這個亞洲資產管理中心因為今天這個你們上任在上個會上個會期的總諮詢7月2號跟這個會期的總諮詢9月20號我都是就是這個單一主題跟你在總諮詢裡面討論到現在謝謝委員提供很多寶貴的意見所以這個其實你現在這個這個你們所提的這個願景我都已經朗朗上口了"},{"start":38.883,"end":39.344,"text":"這個 我想其實"},{"start":54.967,"end":81.742,"text":"我還是滿欣慰就因為我這樣7月質詢一次9月質詢一次到今天10月再來其實每一次我看到都有進展其實我們金管會在打造亞洲資產管理中心這件事情上面我看到的是是真的有在認真推動不管說推動的成果大家滿不滿意但有很多部分大家剛剛前面委員都有質詢過大家有一些擔憂不過"},{"start":83.68,"end":104.71,"text":"我在這邊我先就這個我過去的質詢我們來做一個成果的檢視這個我7月2號的時候施政總質詢我大概提出大概有幾個重要的觀點重要的建議這是我建議說要參考日本要設立這個金融特區那我也提到這個有關鬆綁法規的問題"},{"start":106.755,"end":128.469,"text":"那我看這個建立金融設立金融特區在就在這幾個月就有進展了現在我們大概高雄的整個規劃就這個確實是是有往前走一步那這個但是有關鬆綁法規的部分我看你們也有也有設定在一些檢討的相關計畫那我也是希望說能夠盡快達成"},{"start":129.389,"end":142.143,"text":"另外也就在一樣在7月2號的時候我提提了一個就是希望你們能夠建立在這個在金管會的網頁網頁上面能夠建立一個這個專區有關這個亞洲資產管理中心的專區"},{"start":146.107,"end":165.019,"text":"那我現在看你們金管會有這個專區吉寶公司有這個專區還有我們這個金融服務業聯合總會我都看到有這個專區但是那時候其實如果主委還有殷香那時候我跟你提的是一個我個人是比較期待他是一個全英語式的全英語式的一站式的服務"},{"start":165.839,"end":188.394,"text":"你就是讓外國的這些投資者他能夠更加對他們來講更加友善的一個這樣子的一個網頁這我們正在籌備有在籌備嗎有因為我們現在中文版先確定然後我們是打算在第二階段整個其他部會的政策都上路以後我們全套的在英語的網站包括相關文件的申請"},{"start":189.335,"end":192.637,"text":"對,還有就是那個英語的諮詢專線這些東西對,英語諮詢專線相關的這些人才這個都不是說我們說我要見就可以這個相關人才的"},{"start":211.605,"end":213.947,"text":"接下來9月20號我就是跟主委就是那時候我們集中討論在討論臺版TISA的問題"},{"start":240.135,"end":253.111,"text":"提灑的問題我想剛才前面的委員都有大家對於現在這樣子的做法有大家還都有一些問題其實我跟主委溝通的時候這些問題也就是我跟主委提出來的就是說"},{"start":254.819,"end":281.137,"text":"現在當然主委也是很清楚因為我知道從7月、8月、9月我們一直不斷的我們也希望協助我們金管會跟財政部就租稅方面大家來做一些討論跟溝通但是這個部分這個財政部一直基於我國的這個投資的這些付稅優惠都認為說現在這樣子大致上已經足夠了"},{"start":283.464,"end":283.804,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":304.345,"end":330.247,"text":"在沒有新增稅付稅優惠的情況下我們先開始做是的對不對我們採取這樣的策略但是你看不只是我個人質疑的從剛才很多委員大家就質疑說這樣子沒有付稅優惠的TISA它的誘因足夠嗎所以沒有額外付稅的那個TISA沒有額外的付稅優惠這個TISA它的誘因夠嗎"},{"start":334.09,"end":344.179,"text":"現在你們的想法是說把現在既有的負稅優惠整個打包宣傳做出來但是事實上這個我有TESA沒有TESA我都一樣是這個這樣子的稅負優惠"},{"start":347.426,"end":371.398,"text":"是沒錯,就是剛剛有很多委員指教我正想說其實我們這個提早要爭取那個付稅的優惠確實要有實際的證據顯示它的功能所以我剛才其實報告也講說我們第一階段誠如剛剛委員講我們不能等某個東西一定要存在我們才往前走所以我們接下來還是會持續跟財政部溝通看有什麼適當的"},{"start":372.719,"end":394.83,"text":"我想不只是溝通啦因為財政部他的這個說法也有他的立場但是財政部現在這樣子的立場跟我們金管會認為說應該是不是能夠有提供在付稅上面提供更好的誘因來促使這個TISA能夠更為推廣這個中間應該會有一些平衡點跟共識這個我們來尋求"},{"start":396.771,"end":425.829,"text":"我會持續跟財政部來提出最後我再問你一個就是我那時候也是在總執行裡面問了但是到現在我還沒有看到這個樣子就是我們這個我們引之為福我們希望說接近日本在推動他們資產管理中心的相關的做法那時候我提出日本他們做的這個Japan week日本週這樣子的做法來吸引外資這個我們有沒有考慮要做臺灣week我現在目前還沒有看到"},{"start":426.309,"end":438.08,"text":"上次在院會有跟委員報告我們打算就是說今年今年如果說在下半年跟年初把所有整套制度弄完以後我們也會責成我們比如交易所還有就是相關單位我們也會來舉辦類似這樣臺灣活動"},{"start":441.523,"end":456.785,"text":"有有有這個計劃吼有有有我們想要對外拭目以待而且非常期待吼對特別是對外資還有對國外的宣傳因為這有助於剛剛很多委員指正說我們的國際的排名為什麼那麼低我覺得這個對國外的宣傳跟我們政策的說明也是非常重要的"},{"start":457.465,"end":484.551,"text":"對,好,那你今天就在這邊清楚跟國文說明說你要推動這個臺灣Wix這樣的計畫那最後我就是就一點要求你不用回答就是說這個部分,剛剛大家對於這個TESA你現在目前在這個沒有租稅優惠為前提情況下沒有新增租稅優惠前提情況下的TESA大家都有一些質疑了但是我們自己我們現在這樣子這樣子穩健推動的前提是什麼"},{"start":485.091,"end":513.926,"text":"我們還是要有這個關鍵績效的評估的指標啦這個你不能說因為這樣子所以我就做個形式之後就放在那裡你這個關鍵這個關鍵績效的評估指標還是要出來而且我是希望說你們每半年齁能夠提就這些用以這個績效指標來做這每半年能夠提出一些績效報告好不好是的 謝謝好 謝謝沈發威委員 謝謝接著我們請葛如君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1257,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（13時3分）主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：彭主委。"],["沈委員發惠：彭主委午安。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，午安。"],["沈委員發惠：我們又有機會公開來討論亞洲資產管理中心，在上個會期的總質詢7月2號，跟這個會期的總質詢9月20號，我都是就這個單一主題跟你在總質詢裡面討論到現在。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提供很多寶貴的意見。"],["沈委員發惠：其實現在你們所提的願景我都已經朗朗上口了，留才、引資、五大計畫、十六項策略，兩年有感、四年有變、六年有成，這個我都差不多會背了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：其實我還是滿欣慰啦！因為我7月質詢一次，9月質詢一次，到今天10月再來，其實每一次我看到都有進展，金管會在打造亞洲資產管理中心這件事情上面，我看到的是真的有在認真推動，不管推動的成果大家滿不滿意，有很多部分剛剛前面委員都有質詢過，大家有一些擔憂，不過我在這邊先就我過去的質詢做一個成果檢視。","我在7月2號施政總質詢的時候大概提出幾個重要的觀點、重要的建議，我建議參考日本設立金融特區，我也提到有關鬆綁法規的問題。設立金融特區在這幾個月就有進展了，現在大概在高雄的整個規劃，這個確實是有往前走一步；有關鬆綁法規的部分，我看你們也有設定一些檢討的相關計畫，我也是希望能夠儘快達成。一樣在7月2號的時候我提到，希望你們能夠在金管會的網頁上面建立一個有關亞洲資產管理中心的專區，現在金管會有這個專區了，集保公司有這個專區，還有金融服務業聯合總會的網站，我都看到有這個專區，但是如果主委還有印象，那時候我跟你提到，我個人是比較期待它是一個全英語式的一站式的服務，也就是對外國的這些投資者來講，更加友善的網頁。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這我們正在籌備。"],["沈委員發惠：有在籌備嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，因為我們現在中文版先確定，然後我們是打算在第二階段，整個其他部會的政策都上路以後，我們全套的再推出英語的網站，包括相關文件的申請。"],["沈委員發惠：就不只是網頁，就是整個一站式的服務。"],["彭主任委員金隆：包括服務的路徑跟相關生活服務那些，慢慢把它納入。"],["沈委員發惠：日本是做到連申請文件、公文等等通通可以用英語。"],["彭主任委員金隆：還有英語的諮詢專線，這些東西都會上去。"],["沈委員發惠：對，英語諮詢專線相關的人才，這個都不是我們說要建就可以的，相關人才的籌備……"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們希望能夠達到一定的程度，主要這個宣傳會對國外，所以我們希望能更完整的，讓他們能夠更友善的進入到這個專區。"],["沈委員發惠：對，沒有錯，這就是我那時候說的，這個部分現在我還沒有看到進展，全英語式的一站式服務。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在還沒上線，我們都在建構中。"],["沈委員發惠：接下來，9月20號我跟主委集中在討論臺版TISA的問題，有關TISA的問題，我想對於現在這樣子的作法大家都有一些問題，其實我跟主委溝通的時候，這些問題也就是我跟主委提出來的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["沈委員發惠：當然主委也很清楚，因為我知道，從7月、8月、9月，我們一直不斷希望協助金管會跟財政部就租稅方面來做一些討論跟溝通，但是這個部分財政部基於認為我國投資的賦稅優惠現在大致上已經足夠了，但是主委也沒有因此停下腳步，這部分我是給主委肯定，在租稅優惠的部分跟財政部一直沒有辦法在政策上面能夠完全一致的情況之下，你所提出來的是在沒有新增賦稅優惠的情況下，我們先開始做，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：我們採取這樣的策略啦！但是不只是我個人質疑，剛才很多委員都質疑說，這樣子沒有賦稅優惠的TISA，它的誘因足夠嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是沒有額外賦稅優惠的TISA。"],["沈委員發惠：對，就是沒有額外賦稅優惠的TISA，它的誘因夠嗎？現在你們的想法是把現在既有的賦稅優惠整個打包做宣傳，但是事實上我有沒有TISA都一樣是這樣的賦稅優惠啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒錯，剛剛也有很多委員指教，我在想，其實我們這個TISA要爭取賦稅的優惠確實要有實際的證據顯示它的功能，所以我剛才在報告也講，我們在第一階段，誠如剛剛委員講的，我們不能等某個東西一定要存在，我們才往前走，所以我們接下來還是會持續跟財政部溝通，看有什麼適當的誘因。"],["沈委員發惠：我想不只是溝通啦！因為財政部的說法也有它的立場，但是財政部現在的立場，跟金管會認為是不是能夠在賦稅上面提供更好的誘因，來促使TISA能夠更為推廣，這個中間應該會有一些平衡點跟共識，這個我們來尋求。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我會持續跟財政部來……"],["沈委員發惠：因為時間的關係，最後，我再問你一個，這個我是在總質詢裡面問的，但是到現在還沒有看到，就是我們引資為輔，希望能借鏡日本推動他們資產管理中心的相關作法，那時候我提出日本做的JAPAN WEEKS（日本週），以這樣子的作法來吸引外資，我們有沒有考慮要做TAIWAN WEEKS？我目前還沒有看到。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我上次在院會有跟委員報告，我們打算今年在下半年跟年初把所有整套制度弄完以後，也會責成比如說交易所及相關單位，我們也會來舉辦類似TAIWAN WEEKS這樣的活動。"],["沈委員發惠：有這個計畫？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有、有、有，我們也想要對外……"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個我就拭目以待，而且也非常期待。"],["彭主任委員金隆：特別是對外資以及對國外的宣傳，剛剛很多委員指正我們的國際排名為什麼那麼低，我覺得這個對國外的宣傳跟我們政策的說明也是非常重要的。"],["沈委員發惠：好，你今天就在這邊清楚的跟國人說明你要推動TAIWAN WEEKS這樣子的計畫。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：好。最後，我就一點要求，你不用回答。對於在沒有新增租稅優惠為前提的情況下的TISA，現在大家都有一些質疑了，但是我們現在這樣子穩健推動的前提是什麼？我們還是要有關鍵績效的評估指標，你不能因為這樣子，就做個形式，之後就放在那裡，這個關鍵績效的評估指標還是要出來，而且其實我是希望你們能夠以這個績效指標每半年提出一些績效報告，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員。","接著請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156163","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156163","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b8a650cdf6c9958906b4c0e929d5f577f76d287313e08c4b3a6fda1f50879ef4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"13:10:12 - 13:18:54","影片長度":"00:08:42","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:10:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:18:54+08:00","duration":522,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.57784375,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.817843750000002,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.36596875,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.75346875,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.770343750000002,"end":36.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.970343750000005,"end":40.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.362218750000004,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.88096875,"end":51.314093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.56721875,"end":56.899718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.220343750000005,"end":60.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.06784375,"end":62.99159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.29534375,"end":68.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.61096875,"end":71.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.08721875,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.34784375000001,"end":95.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.74596875,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.19284375000001,"end":100.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.36534375000001,"end":124.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.93971875000001,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.72846875,"end":139.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.90784375,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.12284375000002,"end":184.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.25346875000002,"end":169.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.81221875,"end":199.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.69159375,"end":216.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.21659375000002,"end":239.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.25034375,"end":216.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.43659375000001,"end":241.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.07784375000003,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.54596875000001,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.49409375000002,"end":253.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.21909375,"end":255.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.77159375000002,"end":260.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.95221875000004,"end":262.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.39909375,"end":271.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.15721875,"end":276.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.05096875000004,"end":281.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.62409375000004,"end":293.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.34096875,"end":285.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.54221875,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.47034375000004,"end":293.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.22534375000004,"end":318.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.99971875,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.81659375000004,"end":352.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.05596875000003,"end":371.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.12471875,"end":388.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.16846875000005,"end":391.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.86846875000003,"end":404.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.96971875,"end":392.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.54159375,"end":404.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.92971875,"end":435.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.99659375000005,"end":438.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.21971875,"end":460.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.15721875,"end":468.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.05909375000005,"end":468.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.12659375000004,"end":468.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.19409375000004,"end":474.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.01159375000003,"end":475.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.07471875000005,"end":477.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.55971875000006,"end":477.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.50471875000005,"end":480.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.54659375000006,"end":482.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.62221875000006,"end":483.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.93846875,"end":484.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.03534375000004,"end":489.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.89534375000005,"end":494.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.73846875000004,"end":504.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.31909375000004,"end":506.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.88846875,"end":517.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.77721875,"end":518.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.8484687499999,"end":520.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.87784375,"end":521.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.97471875,"end":522.6328437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":0.269,"text":"區委員質詢。"},{"start":21.604,"end":35.762,"text":"部長好我想今天到現在同樣的一些問題一直在請教部長還有相關的我們的官員所有委員其實都很關心就是我們如果能夠針對一個中高齡甚至是高齡的長者"},{"start":37.844,"end":60.376,"text":"從臺灣需要的角度來請他們共同繼續替臺灣怕病。我想最重要的重點應該在這裡。那我們也知道有很多的努力,包括之前我們也通過了65歲到底退休了,可以有什麼其他的辦法。所以我們今天就希望針對於在相關的法案裡面有提到要兩年之內"},{"start":61.096,"end":82.055,"text":"要提出一些相關的補助或政策上的理解所以我們就把它定在63歲的時候應該做什麼提供給部長這邊來做參考經過這個勞基法50條修訂以後大家都很擔心到底執行上有沒有什麼困難實際上能夠做到什麼樣的一個可行的"},{"start":82.935,"end":100.284,"text":"議會之下來協助這些即將退休的勞動朋友可以做哪一些事情所以變成如何能夠讓勞資雙方知道政府有補助方案的申請那這些申請以後如果有做跟沒有做"},{"start":101.417,"end":106.382,"text":"告知勞動朋友有哪些權益目前都有在執行當中比如說清零退休金或者是相關的一些權益"},{"start":122.498,"end":122.678,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":139.992,"end":160.598,"text":"我們可以看這個在54條修正以後就是年滿65歲就可以透過勞僱雙方來協商延後那在中高齡跟高齡者就業促進法29條裡面的第一項就是說要前兩年裡面要提供相關的這些補助措施而且需要"},{"start":161.358,"end":161.598,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":184.944,"end":191.889,"text":"的這個勞參率只剩下9.6相較於南韓跟日本真的是差非常的多那60到64歲之間從39%變成9%這個就是我們如何能夠讓這一群人有機會提高他的勞參率"},{"start":200.815,"end":207.325,"text":"所以如果我們希望能夠有機會達到像日本跟韓國一樣的勞參與的話那我們如何能夠先讓這個63歲64歲的這些勞動者能夠參與那這是我們所知道的人口數"},{"start":216.278,"end":216.298,"text":"對,這因"},{"start":243.829,"end":259.628,"text":"委員我們就是指說這一個中高齡法今年修正以來在65歲退休前兩年就應該要準備計劃這個部分對這個因為法令剛通過我們正在緊鑼密鼓的規劃規劃這一個"},{"start":263.464,"end":263.884,"text":"對,那麼這些我們都現在正在規劃進行中這樣子。"},{"start":281.81,"end":308.005,"text":"因為我們是7月才開始啟動嘛所以到現在為止差不多將近只有5個月時間可能會慢慢的累積一些相關的資料那也可以進行後續的分析我們後續也會來統計分析相信剛剛楊崇英委員也有提到為什麼我們的勞參率一直提升不起來他也希望部長這邊能夠提供相關的方案給他做參考"},{"start":308.966,"end":313.369,"text":"這邊我們其實是有一些政策上的牽引也可以跟這邊跟部長來討論看看針對63歲的這些勞動朋友們當他到63、64歲的時候那勞動部能夠主動的通知"},{"start":324.338,"end":350.536,"text":"有就業補助這樣的方案那同時也能夠主動的去讓我們的企業主知道跟我們的勞動朋友可以協商延後退休這樣的可行性那最後呢也希望能夠有一個協商的指引可以提供給業主做參考那也可以當勞動朋友做參考那經過這個完整的配套以後我們就有機會去了解去統計調查為什麼"},{"start":353.158,"end":371.634,"text":"如果他在執行上有困難或者是執行有無法達到目標的地方我們可以做後續的政策上滾動的一些檢討不知道部長針對這樣的這個政策建議在執行上預期會碰到哪一些的困難或者是如何能夠再去做調控的部分"},{"start":372.742,"end":391.409,"text":"是,謝謝委員的這個建議,非常好像你前面講的勞動部主動通知中高齡就會補助還有主動通知可協商以後退休這個我們正在跟勞保局建立勾肌然後由勞保局的這個系統我們也許可以來主動來發送這些通知給勞工朋友"},{"start":391.869,"end":392.029,"text":"議員．吳春城議員"},{"start":414.195,"end":415.155,"text":"蘇芬委員講得非常清楚"},{"start":439.264,"end":439.464,"text":"議員吳春城"},{"start":461.232,"end":489.018,"text":"其實我們很了解這個在理念上大家都非常的認同的確中高齡高齡的這些朋友們有需要有更全面的一些支應的方式來處理不過就好像我們討論非常多這個本法案的這個主管機關如果是在行政院的話基本上就不好不像是應該在衛防委員會裡面來說主要的討論然後"},{"start":490.018,"end":516.819,"text":"所以應該包括像內政委員會或經濟委員會來主審可能會更適合那如果有那麼多的部會的參與可能要聯席財政交通跟交易委員會這個都是未來在處理的部分我們需要去更了解那當然有公聽會由我們這個委員會或者是由立院來主辦的公聽會應該是可以讓更多的學者專家還有相關的人員一起來努力好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":519.892,"end":520.376,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（13時10分）謝謝主席，大家再忍耐一下，麻煩何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，今天到現在同樣的一些問題一直在請教部長還有相關的官員，所有委員其實都很關心我們如何能夠針對中高齡，甚至是高齡的長者，從臺灣需要的角度來請他們共同繼續替臺灣打拚，我想最重要的重點應該在這裡。我們也知道有很多的努力，包括之前也通過了65歲……到底退休之後還有沒有什麼其他的辦法？所以我們今天就是希望針對於……在相關的法案裡面有提到在兩年之內要提出一些相關的補助或政策上面的理解，所以我們就把他訂在63歲的時候應該做什麼，提供給部長這邊來做參考。經過勞基法第五十四條修訂以後，大家都很擔心到底執行上有沒有什麼困難，實際上能夠做到什麼樣可行的機會之下，來協助這些即將退休的勞動朋友可以做哪些事情，所以變成如何能夠讓勞資雙方知道政府有補助方案的申請，這些申請以後如果有做跟沒有做造成的影響，有沒有機會麻煩勞動部這邊來做後續的分析，這就是這次我們希望跟部長來討論的地方。我們也知道其實通知勞動朋友有哪些權益，目前都有在執行當中，比如請領退休金或者是相關的一些權益，都已經有主動通知的機制，不知道未來在執行63歲的這些勞動朋友當他有機會進入到退休的時候，他的權益能夠得到什麼樣的保障？我們可以看到在第五十四條修正以後，就是年滿65歲就可以透過勞僱雙方來協商延後退休，在中高齡及高齡者就業促進法第二十九條第一項就說在前兩年裡面要提供相關的補助措施，而且需要先提供辦理以後，中央主管機關才能補助，意思就是說，他需要先做了這些事情才能夠得到補助，這一方面不知道目前在執行上面的困擾是怎麼樣？","我們發現很重要的就是，到了65歲以後，勞參率真的是下降得非常非常嚴重。剛剛很多委員，包括林淑芬委員也都有提到，我們65歲的勞參率只剩下9.6%，相較於南韓跟日本真的是差非常的多。60到64歲之間從39%變成9%，究竟我們如何能夠讓這一群人有機會提高他的勞參率。如果希望能夠有機會達到像日本跟韓國一樣的勞參率的話，我們如何先讓63歲、64歲的這些勞動者能夠參與？這是我們所知道的人口數，63歲有34萬人，64歲也是34萬人，加起來就有68萬人，68萬人的人口裡面到底有多少是屬於勞動的朋友，還有多少的受僱者知道他們即將要進入到65歲退休的時候有這樣的方案？這一部分不知道有沒有這樣的統計資料在部長所了解的地方？"],["何部長佩珊：委員就是指中高齡法今年修正以來，在65歲退休前兩年就應該要有準備計畫這個部分，因為法令剛通過，我們正在緊鑼密鼓的規劃前兩年的退休準備計畫，，然後讓勞工朋友知道他的權利有哪一些，包括我們獎補助的各種措施都應該要告知他們，這些我們現在正在規劃進行中。"],["王委員正旭：因為我們是7月才開始啟動，所以到現在為止，差不多只有將近五個月的時間，可能會慢慢的累積一些相關的資料，也可以進行後續的分析。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們後續也會來統計分析。"],["王委員正旭：剛剛楊瓊瓔委員也提到為什麼我們的勞參率一直提升不起來，他也希望部長能夠提供相關的方案給他做參考，本席在這邊其實是有一些政策上的建議，也可以跟部長來討論看看。針對63歲的勞動朋友們，當他到63、64歲的時候，勞動部能夠主動通知有就業補助這樣的方案，同時也能夠主動去讓企業主知道可以跟勞動朋友協商延後退休的可行性，最後也希望能夠有一個協商的指引可以提供給業主做參考，也可以讓勞動朋友做參考。經過這個完整的配套以後，我們就有機會去了解、去統計調查，如果他在執行上有困難，或者是執行有無法達到目標的地方，我們可以做後續政策上滾動的一些檢討，不知道部長針對這樣的政策建議，在執行上預期會碰到哪一些困難，或者是如何能夠再去做調控的部分？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝，委員的這個建議非常好，像你前面講的勞動部主動通知中高齡就業補助，還有主動通知可協商延後退休，這個我們正在跟勞保局建立勾稽，然後由勞保局的系統，我們也許可以主動發送這些通知給勞工朋友。另外，像勞動部主動建立延退協商的指引，我請我們的同仁現在來研究並建立這個東西，這是有必要的。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。針對中高齡就業協助的部分，其實我們也知道很多的環境因素會影響到這些中高齡勞動朋友的就業意願，我們可以看到一個數據，如果是屬於技術層次3、4級跟1、2級，其實就有很大的不一樣，中高齡3、4級技術層次的部分是有增加就業率，反而1、2級的層次就是會受到影響。之前林淑芬委員講得非常清楚，不同的就業需求跟環境其實是不一樣，所以我們也希望針對這部分，看部長在對策上、在執行過程當中，有沒有需要再做滾動式修正的部分？也希望從這個角度繼續做多方面的研商。","最後針對今天的法案，其實我們很了解這個在理念上大家都非常的認同，的確中高齡及高齡的這些朋友們需要有更全面支應的方式來處理，不過就好像我們討論非常多的，本法案的主管機關如果是在行政院的話，基本上就不像是應該在衛環委員會裡面來做主要的討論，應該由內政委員會或經濟委員會來主審可能會更適合。如果有那麼多的部會要參與，可能要聯席財政、交通跟教育委員會，這個都是未來在處理時我們需要更去了解的部分。當然如果有公聽會，由我們這個委員會或者是由立院來主辦的公聽會，應該可以讓更多的學者專家還有相關的人員一起來努力。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長，謝謝王委員，現在休息15分鐘。","休息（13時18分）","繼續開會（13時34分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","邱議瑩委員、邱議瑩委員，邱議瑩委員不在。","接續請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156162","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156162","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685ba42c0114992657666b4c0e929d5f577f76d287313e08c4b310bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:01:40 - 13:10:06","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T13:01:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:10:06+08:00","duration":506,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.32534375,"end":7.371593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.67534375,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.223468750000002,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.80471875,"end":21.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.137218750000002,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.07346875,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.87034375,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.38034375,"end":33.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.21971875,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.63721875,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.54721875,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.85096875,"end":58.688468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.884718750000005,"end":45.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.39721875,"end":59.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.44346875,"end":77.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.87096875,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.71409375,"end":96.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.08909375,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.70471875000001,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.32034375,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.25221875000001,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.77096875000001,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.51346875,"end":113.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.35909375000001,"end":119.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.72096875000001,"end":154.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.63221875,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.23534375000001,"end":123.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.49659375,"end":125.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.28534375000001,"end":127.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.18596875,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.62721875,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.53409375,"end":155.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.68596875,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.08096875,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.67159375,"end":167.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.59096875,"end":198.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.32471875000002,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.86346875,"end":208.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.26409375,"end":217.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.16159375,"end":224.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.94096875000002,"end":232.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.53471875000002,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.87221875,"end":233.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.32346875000002,"end":238.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.93034375000002,"end":244.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.97159375,"end":250.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.78909375,"end":253.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.38784375000003,"end":259.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.93971875,"end":276.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.08909375,"end":276.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.10596875000005,"end":276.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.66284375000004,"end":285.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.07909375,"end":289.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.11221875,"end":291.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.51284375,"end":297.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.16596875000005,"end":300.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.64221875000004,"end":303.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.47721875,"end":305.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.36721875,"end":305.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.78471875,"end":309.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.87284375,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.13846875,"end":320.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.58034375,"end":320.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.40284375000005,"end":348.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.77346875,"end":325.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.19909375000003,"end":328.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.78784375000004,"end":341.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.01034375,"end":361.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.18971875,"end":373.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.40409375,"end":366.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.15409375,"end":376.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.37284375,"end":384.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.61659375000005,"end":384.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.19034375,"end":397.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.24721875,"end":398.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.47909375,"end":403.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.88346875,"end":407.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.56221875,"end":418.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.63221875000005,"end":447.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.38284375,"end":450.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.04909375000005,"end":452.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.85471875,"end":454.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.91346875000005,"end":458.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.52471875000003,"end":460.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.86596875000004,"end":471.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.69971875000005,"end":475.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.37846875,"end":481.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.94721875000005,"end":487.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.24159375000005,"end":488.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.23284375000003,"end":504.01971875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":23.542,"text":"副部長辛苦到現在不過我想先請教一下因為今天早上聽說我們衛環委員會一開始的時候沒有辦法順利的進行詢答那最主要是有一些委員在詢問那甚至還有程序發言然後還特別提到說不清楚說到底壯世代什麼叫壯世代定義不明定義不清請教部長壯世代是什麼"},{"start":25.684,"end":29.947,"text":"來部長你知不知道你們勞動部在今年2月有一個55plus壯世代就業促進措施"},{"start":44.926,"end":58.48,"text":"你今年2月55plus壯世代就業促進措施啊你不知道你說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了欸那你難道不知道壯世代是什麼"},{"start":59.451,"end":77.573,"text":"再來今年9月2號勞動部的臉書 勞動部攜手壯世代迎向就業新時代和沛山部長親接雲嘉南銀髮人才中心資源然後為勞動部壯世代就業網路再添亮點"},{"start":79.482,"end":102.871,"text":"欸9月2號你們臉書上宣傳壯世代就你現在說你不知道這個定義我不是說不知道是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議啦這我是支持的那當然這個法案裡面是說50歲以上可是我認為當然現在有很多委員認為55歲以上不清楚啦對有很多委員認為不清楚但是我們行政部門都很清楚啊甚至"},{"start":104.852,"end":119.492,"text":"吳春城委員在質詢總質詢這個行政院院長卓龍泰的時候卓龍泰表示他自己就是吳春城口中的壯世代所以連院長都清楚他就是壯世代的時候為什麼我們現在還有定義不清定義不明的問題"},{"start":120.313,"end":138.321,"text":"但是委員就是說我們講的定義不清是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義所以這個會變成各說各話比如說吳委員講的是55歲以上或者是我們行政好我們也見到這個概念可是我們覺得這一個東西它"},{"start":139.462,"end":169.462,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":169.682,"end":198.277,"text":"可以再討論再來第二個部分大家都已經講了其實我們對於人口的問題非常的擔憂因為我們真的是沒有人口紅利了嘛尤其是像明年三個月後65歲以上的人口就有20%全台灣五個人以上就有一位是65歲以上是不是這樣那現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會討論的就是少子化的現況對策交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工的問題"},{"start":199.398,"end":208.365,"text":"所以今天光我們立法院7個委員會在開會的時候就有3個委員會其實核心概念價值都是一個缺工嘛"},{"start":209.335,"end":238.263,"text":"我們為什麼會討論壯世代就是希望說延長退休的門檻讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續的付出投入我們討論少子化經濟發展也是認為是說我們現在缺工的問題很嚴重交通也是一樣沒有駕駛國道客運一般的公車大貨車沒有找到駕駛啊那這問題難道不嚴重嗎所以其實部長我覺得這就不能只是從勞動部的本位主義來看啊"},{"start":239.233,"end":250.462,"text":"還有其實這一個法案我為什麼我也共同提案一起希望能夠有這個立法就是因為它其實是政策跟產業發展重點在於是產業發展"},{"start":254.451,"end":275.803,"text":"年長者中高齡者他絕對不會是障礙他反而是一個助力以前我們的觀念會覺得說中高齡者可能他體力衰退了或說什麼樣所以說他可能對於產業不利但是現在的醫學進步以及科技發達反而中高齡者他的經驗如果能夠傳承的話對於產業是有有益的"},{"start":276.784,"end":305.467,"text":"所以我現在也請教一下處長喔不好意思處長您上來我其實最主要是要請教因為我有看到行政院的報告是講是說院長已經有責成我們的政務委員陳時中已經開過三次會是不是那說10月31號會報行政院會會報什麼樣的資料給行政院會呃勞動部會提一個壯世代的社會參與的促進方案他會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會嗯"},{"start":306.88,"end":328.472,"text":"所以他會提壯世代的社會參與對促進方案那如果說這樣的話又跟剛剛部長講部長不是講是說不能用壯世代這個名詞不要用壯世代這樣那就勞動部自己要提壯世代的就業服務方案公務員報告因為剛才部長也提到壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的可是我們會推動因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的是所以"},{"start":328.952,"end":351.141,"text":"為了要推動這個方案的話我們把壯世代稍微定義說是針對55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者因為這邊考慮到說我們現在有超過13%的話是失能者所以你失能者﹖年長到一個階段沒有錯這個其實大家都理解嘛"},{"start":351.801,"end":375.754,"text":"就是說可以投入勞動市場的人他本身如果說是有身體疾病或是真的他無行為能力當然我們不能把他算進來啊是啊所以在整體推動上我們是支持說用方案計畫來推動因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書跟應用超高齡社會對策方案在服務以現在我們長照2.0要把它提升為長照3.0"},{"start":377.515,"end":400.27,"text":"希望未來建構的,再搭配壯世代的部分建構是一個完整的高齡的政策方案拜託跟麻煩因為你已經有在行政院政委這邊有開過會但是幾個觀念一定要帶回去第一日本也有很多的長照他是以初老來服務中老有55歲65歲的人來服務75歲85歲的人"},{"start":403.956,"end":428.409,"text":"那這就是一個引法共榮共存的概念第二延長這所謂的這個退休年齡以外怎麼樣能夠讓產業有更多的誘因能夠來禁用而不是認為是說他們是老人企業這個部分也要方面去思考還有第三我覺得最重要的是為什麼會提出壯世代就是因為過去用引法用中高齡者"},{"start":429.47,"end":449.628,"text":"會讓大家會有一個比較負面的標籤所以說才會希望是說符合現行的民意現行的民情壯世代他們是壯世代對比是什麼就是輕壯世代嘛輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人那45歲以上以前叫我不知道處長你有沒有看過"},{"start":451.127,"end":471.725,"text":"甚至有媒體報導上街頭遊行這是確實的他說上街頭遊行我看到了51歲的老翁他也站出來了你有沒有看過這種報導有記者連線的時候他說哇今天非常熱鬧這個遊行大家站出來了連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了來我們請教這個老翁的看法"},{"start":472.925,"end":488.367,"text":"這以前人家這樣子連線你會覺得好像但是你現在聽我這樣講好像覺得哪裡怪怪的因為現在其實連71歲我都不一定覺得說如果說他體態保持良好身體健康肌力夠他都不一定可以稱為老翁對不對"},{"start":490.287,"end":503.437,"text":"我們期待行政院有拿出真正正正符合民情的版本那我們也希望未來這一個法案在衛環委員會進入到主條的時候我們再討論而行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊好不好以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1074,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時1分）主席謝謝。麻煩請勞動部何部長、行政院內政衛福勞動處蘇處長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：何部長，辛苦了，到現在。今天早上聽說衛環委員會一開始時是沒有辦法順利進行詢答的，最主要是有一些委員詢問，甚至還程序發言，特別提到不清楚到底什麼叫壯世代，認為其定義不明、定義不清。請教部長，壯世代是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！這就是比較……"],["洪委員孟楷：你也不清楚？"],["何部長佩珊：因為這是吳委員提出來的法案，吳委員會比較清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會吧！部長，你知不知道勞動部在今年2月有一個「55Plus壯世代就業促進措施」？今年2月就有「55Plus壯世代就業促進措施」，然後你不知道，說這是吳委員在今年10月才提出來的概念，但你們今年2月就已經有這個措施了，難道你不知道壯世代是什麼？再來，今年9月2號勞動部的臉書：勞動部攜手壯世代，迎向就業新時代，何佩珊部長親揭牌雲嘉南區銀髮人才資源中心，勞動部壯世代就業網絡再添亮點。欸！9月2號你們在臉書上宣傳壯世代，結果你現在說不知道這個定義！"],["何部長佩珊：我不是說不知道，而是說我當然支持這一個概念的倡議，這我是支持的，當然，這個法案裡面是說55歲以上……"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊！那定義……"],["何部長佩珊：但現在有很多委員認為定義不清楚啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：55歲以上……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：有很多委員認為定義不清楚，但行政部門都很清楚啊！甚至吳春城委員在總質詢質詢行政院院長卓榮泰的時候，卓榮泰自己都表示他就是吳春城口中的壯世代，連院長都清楚他就是壯世代，為什麼我們現在還有定義不清、定義不明的問題？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，我們講的定義不清，是說國際上沒有針對壯世代有一個很明確的定義，所以這個會變成各說各話，譬如吳委員說55歲以上，或者我們行政院……好，我們也接受這個概念，可是我覺得這個名詞未必能涵蓋55歲以上的所有人，因為55歲以上的人口裡也有失能的人，他未必能成為壯世代，所以這裡面是很複雜的人口結構，沒有辦法用壯世代這樣一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有辦法用一個詞來含括，但是定義不清、定義不明可以更明確，但它絕對不是一個我們拒絕這個法案、這個專法或是這個討論進行的理由嘛！不是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有拒絕討論，只是說可以再討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：喔！可以再討論。再來，第二個部分，其實大家都已經講了，對於人口的問題我們非常擔憂，因為真的沒有人口紅利了，尤其在明年、3個月後，65歲以上的人口就有20%，表示全臺灣5個人中，就有一位是65歲以上，是不是這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實現在經濟委員會同時間也在開會，討論的是少子化的現況對策；交通委員會同時間討論的是國道客運缺工問題，今天光我們立法院7個委員會開會，就有3個委員會討論的核心概念、價值都是一個：缺工問題。我們為什麼會討論壯世代？就是希望延長退休門檻，讓有勞動力而且健康的人可以持續付出、投入；我們討論少子化、經濟發展，也是認為現在缺工問題很嚴重；交通問題也一樣，國道客運、一般公車、大貨車都找不到駕駛，這個問題難道不嚴重嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我覺得這個問題不能只從勞動部的本位主義來看，其實這個法案我也共同提案，希望能夠有這樣的立法，因為它攸關的是政策跟產業發展，而重點在於產業發展，年長者、中高齡者絕對不會是障礙，他反而會是一個助力。以前我們的觀念覺得中高齡者可能體力衰退或什麼，所以他可能對產業不利，但現在醫學進步、科技發達，中高齡者如果經驗能夠傳承的話，反而對產業是有益的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因此我現在也要請教一下處長，不好意思請處長上來，我最主要要請教處長的是，我看到行政院的報告提到院長已經責成政務委員陳時中，還開過3次會，是不是？"],["蘇處長永富：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：說10月31號會報行政院院會，請問，會報什麼樣的資料給行政院院會？"],["蘇處長永富：勞動部會提一個壯世代社會參與促進方案，會提到院長主持的社會福利推動委員會。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以會提壯世代的社會參與？"],["蘇處長永富：對，促進方案。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果是這樣，又跟剛剛部長講……部長不是講說不能用壯世代這個名詞，不要用壯世代，結果勞動部自己要提壯世代就業服務方案？"],["蘇處長永富：跟委員報告，剛才部長也提到，壯世代在國際上是沒有定義的，可是我們要推動，因為壯世代這個議題我們是重視的，所以為了要推動這個方案，我們把壯世代稍微定義是針對55歲以上健康、有工作能力，且為生產者跟消費者，因為這邊考慮到……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，非常好。"],["蘇處長永富：因為考慮到現在有超過13%的失能者，所以失能者……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，沒有錯，年長到一個階段，這個其實大家都理解，就是說可以投入勞動市場的人，如果他本身身體有疾病或者真的無行為能力，當然不能把他算進來。"],["蘇處長永富：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["蘇處長永富：所以在整體推動上，我們是支持用方案計畫來推動，因為這邊還要配合現在的高齡社會白皮書，以及因應超高齡社會對策方案，再輔以現在長照2.0要提升為長照3.0，希望未來能搭配壯世代，建構一個完整的高齡政策。"],["洪委員孟楷：處長，拜託跟麻煩，因為你已經有在行政院政委這邊開過會，有幾個觀念請一定要帶回去，第一，日本也有很多長照是以初老來服務中老，由55歲、65歲的人來服務75歲、85歲的人，這就是一個銀髮共榮共存的概念。第二，延長退休年齡以外，如何讓產業有更多誘因來進用他們，而不是認為他們是老人企業，這個部分也要各方面去思考。"],["蘇處長永富：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有第三，我覺得最重要的是，為什麼會提出壯世代？就是因為過去用銀髮、中高齡者，會讓大家有比較負面的標籤，所以才希望能符合現行民意、現行民情，用「壯世代」這個名詞。壯世代的對比是什麼？就是輕壯世代，輕壯世代可能是25到45歲的人。我不知道處長你有沒有看過，這是確實的事，甚至有媒體報導，上街頭遊行，看到51歲的老翁也站出來了！你有沒有看過這種報導？就是有記者連線時說：今天非常熱鬧，這個遊行大家都站出來了，連高齡51歲的老翁都站出來了，我們現在請教這個老翁的看法……以前人家連線這樣說，我會覺得好像……但是你現在聽我這樣講，會不會覺得好像哪裡怪怪的？其實現在如果體態保持良好、身體健康、肌力夠，連71歲的人都不一定可以稱老翁，對不對？我們期待行政院拿出真真正正符合民情的版本，同時也希望未來這個法案在衛環委員會進入到逐條的時候再討論，行政部門不應該只是鐵板一塊，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，謝謝部長及處長。","接續請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156161","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156161","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bc48f09891005fb1a1a854d634de4a24c76d287313e08c4b3b0c18060a6df1b5f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:55:43 - 13:03:14","影片長度":"00:07:31","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:55:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:03:14+08:00","duration":451,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.810343750000001,"end":9.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.41346875,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.63221875,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.28096875,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.16659375,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.723468750000002,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.52471875,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.96284375,"end":35.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.75534375,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.80159375,"end":38.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.80971875,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.51409375,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.06659375,"end":49.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.02721875,"end":57.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.77721875,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.39721875,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.32471875,"end":66.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.80534375,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.16346875,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.79159375,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.64784375,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.84159375,"end":79.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.74846875,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":82.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.60846875,"end":85.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.84471875,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.64596875000001,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.51471875,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.78846875,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":94.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.34534375000001,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.14221875000001,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.56784375000001,"end":103.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.96409375,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.34784375000001,"end":106.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.66409375,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.30096875000001,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.27534375,"end":114.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.66284375000001,"end":117.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.78471875000001,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.75909375,"end":121.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.74596875,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.56846875000001,"end":130.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.62221875,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.25034375,"end":136.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.26721875,"end":144.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.43034375000002,"end":149.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.69534375,"end":161.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.78721875000002,"end":156.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.63909375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.81159375000001,"end":162.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.33471875,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.19534375,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.81034375000002,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.79721875,"end":183.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.08659375000002,"end":186.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.37721875000003,"end":200.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.79284375,"end":205.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.01159375,"end":208.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.53846875000002,"end":208.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.57221875000002,"end":208.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.63971875000001,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.87159375000002,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.71409375000002,"end":222.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.96659375000002,"end":231.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.42096875000001,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.85534375,"end":235.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.63971875000001,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.80846875,"end":237.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.55096875,"end":241.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.90034375000002,"end":247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.08096875,"end":250.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.50659375,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.30721875,"end":263.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.00659375000004,"end":267.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.52909375,"end":270.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.95909375,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.59596875,"end":277.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.74284375,"end":281.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.16409375,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.44221875,"end":284.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.98221875,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.11284375,"end":287.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.44596875,"end":290.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.47909375,"end":294.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.28034375000004,"end":296.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.69346875,"end":302.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.02159375,"end":307.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.38784375,"end":313.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.70346875,"end":323.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.59221875000003,"end":325.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.70159375000003,"end":326.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.39346875,"end":326.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.03471875,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.53221875,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.99096875000004,"end":340.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.16784375000003,"end":341.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.80034375,"end":352.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.80284375,"end":352.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.90409375,"end":352.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.97159375,"end":365.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.15721875,"end":353.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.69721875000005,"end":353.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.73096875000005,"end":354.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.30284375,"end":366.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.97784375000003,"end":369.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.04909375,"end":370.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.92659375000005,"end":374.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.25534375,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.36346875000004,"end":383.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.70096875,"end":384.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.74721875,"end":385.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.02971875000003,"end":387.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.49346875000003,"end":394.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.04096875000005,"end":396.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.20096875,"end":400.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.82909375,"end":402.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.74846875000003,"end":407.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.27971875000003,"end":414.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.00409375000004,"end":416.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.86034375,"end":418.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.90221875000003,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.18909375000004,"end":422.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.86784375,"end":427.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.50846875,"end":427.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.60971875,"end":428.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.62659375000004,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.40659375,"end":435.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.43971875000005,"end":435.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.16534375000003,"end":437.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.46471875000003,"end":438.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.65034375000005,"end":438.78096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.78096875000006,"end":439.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.37159375000005,"end":440.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.59909375,"end":442.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.35409375,"end":444.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.38346875,"end":445.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.97784375000003,"end":448.56846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.947,"end":19.726,"text":"麻煩請金管會主委黃主委委員好主委好我這邊有一個陳情案有一個民眾他是在民國94年的時候經營不善"},{"start":20.456,"end":49.785,"text":"後來因為這樣就積欠很多銀行錢然後後來到106年的時候因為有人他長輩要幫他還錢所以他就要提出一個清償計畫然後那當然因為他也因為很久以前的事情也不確定有跟哪個銀行借過錢就去廉徵查詢結果查到的都已經還了但是沒有想到在今年7月的時候忽然間他的房子就被查封了被誰查封呢?被臺灣金聯公司查封"},{"start":51.072,"end":79.85,"text":"然後他現在也沒辦法不知道怎麼辦為什麼因為他要還錢的話他也要拿房子去貸款那現在也沒有貸款的機會了也找不到人幫忙所以眼看這個房子啊就要被法拍了沒有地方住那這個案子我們也辦公室也有協調過當時金管會就說管不了臺灣金聯這件事情我就覺得非常誇張臺灣金聯的請問一下主委臺灣金聯的供股是佔幾%"},{"start":81.563,"end":84.889,"text":"關鼓站幾發?我問主委"},{"start":87.697,"end":109.869,"text":"報告委員這個問題我確實沒講80%吧那是金融機構轉投資剛剛局長說那是金融機構轉投資政府並沒有投資那政府沒有投資那總是有間接持股嗎多少嗎沒有就是金融機構的投資我會議詢問財政部關股銀行是公股銀行的投資沒關係基本上關股也是影響到"},{"start":114.71,"end":133.22,"text":"金管會應該要去我認為金管會要去管啦金管會要去管啦那現在有幾個問題第一個問題請問一下臺灣今年他可以在完全不通知這個人的情況之下直接去查封他的房子嗎如果是一般的銀行的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":135.307,"end":163.946,"text":"因為要查封人的財產應該是要根據一定的法律程序比如你要舉證你的債權跟法院申請才有辦法查封我們現在如果是銀行要去查封一個人的房子是不是會先催收然後會經過一個溝通你確實不想還的話呢當然最後程序就是查封你的房子嘛因為查封這個房子其實是蠻嚴重的一件事情他可能會讓人家很歸嘛對吧對 銀行也是希望能還錢的不是希望查封的"},{"start":165.767,"end":190.055,"text":"為什麼這個臺灣金聯他會取得這個債權是因為合庫在因為我剛剛講他是94年跟合庫借的錢後來95年合庫就把大概轉讓了50萬給臺灣金聯公司臺灣金聯公司中間也都沒有處理在今年7月忽然間就去查封人家房子也沒有通知那這個人會覺得很奇怪為什麼第一個他跟連珍問過啊他就沒有這筆資料啊他以為該還都還了嘛"},{"start":191.275,"end":191.795,"text":"政府機關可以這樣子喔?"},{"start":218.96,"end":240.703,"text":"請報告人民當然他欠錢是有這個事實但是人在家中做忽然間就要被查封了然後跟主管機關反映主管機關說這不關我的事可以麻木不然人到這種地步喔當然如果說是我們這就是你們單位那時候來我們協調會講的話啊這我去趕快去解釋一下你覺得如果主委我現在在這個質詢台上問你你可以接受你們你們基本上會有這種態度嗎"},{"start":242.365,"end":262.719,"text":"這個報告委員這個確實剛才講我們要先去了解一下狀況我才能跟您回覆這樣謝謝沒有沒有我告訴你嘛如果是有這件事情的話你可以接受嗎如果說剛才跟委員說過就假設我是一個房子我覺得我債務清償完畢突然被查封當然每個人都很驚訝不能接受嘛那居然會提供給你也許這個特例你幫忙協調一下嘛不願意說跟我無關"},{"start":264.062,"end":266.805,"text":"為什麼他106年提出清償去向連珍去查的時候沒有這個資料為什麼為什麼"},{"start":286.441,"end":302.216,"text":"這主要是剛才那個同仁跟我回答說如果他已經賣給已經移轉到臺金聯去的話他當然查不到那就是一個很大的漏洞阿你今天我們為什麼聯徵中心的存在不就是要讓大家查一下到底比如說你還有多少基欠"},{"start":303.106,"end":303.426,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":325.714,"end":336.275,"text":"你不覺得嗎?這個案子我想我再了解一下不是這個案子我現在就這個案子引發出來制度的討論在跟你就教嘛那你覺得是不是一個很大的漏洞?"},{"start":339.586,"end":365.354,"text":"那你覺不覺得是一個很大的漏洞這個確實我覺得我現在還要真的瞭解他說這是常態的實務作業的模式的話那我現在也不方便評論不方便評論不方便評論我就跟你講說這是一個很大的漏洞只要這個人有債務的問題只要他轉賣給臺灣金聯這個在聯證中心就沒資料銀行也不知道民眾也不知道"},{"start":366.354,"end":394.005,"text":"你覺得OK嗎?沒有這可能還牽涉到其他我想說從這部分請容我去了解一下我再其實已經找過你們了嘛你們下面的人就在推託我才會來質詢嘛你們會不會來開協調會的人有點擔當好不好第三個問你啦台灣今年那時候啊取得這個債權有登報啦然後那天來的台灣今年說我沒有登報啊那是他自己沒看到啊請問一下他登什麼報?"},{"start":395.1,"end":418.217,"text":"現在每一個人都有在看報嗎?你們現在金管的機制裡面還是用這種上古年代的做法喔?當然這可能是一個法定程序或是法規上有很多制度的漏洞那因為今天趙偉已經站起來我不想讓他為難啦你能不能夠針對這個個案提出一個完整的檢討報告給我趙偉可以嗎?可以沒問題趙偉可以可以可以教授他一下因為"},{"start":419.246,"end":444.721,"text":"因為我們協調會他們派人實在是太蠻憨了我真的受不了金管會要好好處理委員的這個協調會對對我剛剛已經說這個報告我會什麼時候因為已經這個案子你們早就知道了啊什麼時候包括這個案子怎麼處理包括制度怎麼解決什麼時候給我一個簽討報告我們兩個禮拜給你兩個禮拜給委員報告好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝葉元之委員謝謝彭主委就是請審發會委員"},{"start":448.059,"end":448.381,"text":"王博文議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1199,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時55分）麻煩金管會主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。我這邊有一個陳情案，有一個民眾在民國94年的時候經營不善，因為這樣就積欠很多銀行錢，後來到106年的時候，因為他的長輩要幫他還錢，所以他就要提出一個清償計畫，當然因為是很久以前的事情，他也不確定有跟哪個銀行借過錢，於是就去聯徵查詢，結果查到的都已經還了，但是沒有想到在今年7月的時候，忽然間他的房子就被查封，被誰查封？被台灣金聯公司查封，然後他現在也沒辦法，不知道怎麼辦，為什麼？因為他要還錢的話，他也要拿房子去貸款，但現在也沒有貸款的機會了，也找不到人幫忙，所以眼看這個房子就要被法拍了，沒有地方住。這個案子我們辦公室也有協調過，當時金管會就說管不了台灣金聯。這件事情我就覺得非常誇張，請問一下主委，台灣金聯的官股占多少？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員……"],["葉委員元之：我問主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這個問題我確實沒掌握，我請局長……"],["葉委員元之：80%吧？多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛局長說那是金融機構轉投資，政府並沒有投資。"],["葉委員元之：政府沒有投資，總是有間接持股嘛，多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有！就是金融機構的投資。"],["葉委員元之：我會議詢問。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是公股銀行的投資。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係。基本上官股也是影響到，我認為金管會要去管。現在有幾個問題，第一個問題，請問一下台灣金聯可以在完全不通知這個人的情況之下，直接去查封他房子嗎？如果是一般銀行的作法是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：要查封人的財產，應該是要根據一定的法律程序，比如你要舉證你的債權，跟法院申請，才有辦法查封。"],["葉委員元之：現在如果是銀行要去查封一個人的房子，是不是會先催收，然後會經過一個溝通，你確實不想還的話，當然最後程序就是查封你的房子嘛！因為查封房子其實是滿嚴重的一件事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想實務上應該是這樣子。"],["葉委員元之：它可能會讓人家無家可歸嘛！對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，銀行也是希望能還錢，而不是希望查封。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！可是為什麼台灣金聯會取得這個債權，我剛剛講他是94年跟合庫借的錢，後來95年合庫大概轉讓了50萬給台灣金聯公司，台灣金聯公司中間也都沒有處理，在今年7月忽然間就去查封人家房子，也沒有通知，這個會覺得很奇怪，為什麼？第一，他跟聯徵問過啊，就沒有這筆資料啊！他以為該還的都還了嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["葉委員元之：第二，台灣金聯就算取得這個債權，也沒有跟他聯繫過啊，然後人在家中住，忽然間就得到查封通知，如果是主委你的話會不會覺得很訝異？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，任何一個人在沒有被知會的時候房子被查封，當然會很驚訝。"],["葉委員元之：這個部分可以協助去跟台灣金聯溝通嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們去了解一下這個狀況，如果……"],["葉委員元之：我們上次辦公室開協調會的時候，你們金管會的人就兩手一攤啊！這不歸我們管啊！政府機關可以這樣子喔？當然他欠錢是有這個事實，但是人在家中坐，忽然間就要被查封了，然後跟主管機關反映，主管機關說這不關我的事，可以麻木不仁到這種地步喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，如果說是我們……"],["葉委員元之：這就是你們單位那時候來我們協調會講的話啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我趕快去了解一下。"],["葉委員元之：主委，我現在在這個質詢臺上問你，你可以接受你們金管會這種態度嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這個確實……剛才講了，我們要先去了解一下狀況，我才能跟您回復，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：我告訴你嘛！如果有這件事情的話，你可以接受嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛才跟委員說過，假設我有一間房子，我覺得我的債務清償完畢，突然被查封，當然每個人都很驚訝。"],["葉委員元之：不能接受嘛！我提供給金管會，也許是個特例，你幫忙協調一下，不要說跟你無關！台灣金聯現在的董事長以前還做過你們金管會主委，關係這麼密切，然後說跟你無關，我真的不能接受金融主管機關是這樣的態度啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個……"],["葉委員元之：第二個，我問你，他106年提出清償，為什麼去向聯徵查的時候沒有這個資料？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛才同仁跟我說，如果他已經移轉到台金聯去的話，當然查不到。"],["葉委員元之：這就是一個很大漏洞啊！今天我們為什麼有聯徵中心存在？不就是要讓大家查一下，比如說你還有多少積欠的債務；第二個，也是讓其他銀行了解這個人的信用有沒有問題。結果你只要把債權賣給，比如說台灣金聯，這個資料就消失了，假設這個人信用很差，但是聯徵又查不到他的資料，他要去跟其他銀行借錢，銀行還以為他信用很好，再借錢給他。這是一個很大的漏洞，你不覺得嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，委員，這個案子我想我來了解一下……"],["葉委員元之：不是這個案子，我現在是就這個案子引發出來的制度問題在跟你討論、跟你就教，那你覺得是不是一個很大的漏洞？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果有需要檢討的地方，我們會去……"],["葉委員元之：那你覺不覺得是一個很大的漏洞？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得我現在還要再了解，如果這是常態的實務作業的模式的話，那我現在也不方便評論。"],["葉委員元之：不方便評論！我就跟你講說，這是一個很大的漏洞，這個人有債務的問題，只要他轉賣給台灣金聯，這個在聯徵中心就沒資料，銀行也不知道，民眾也不知道，你覺得OK嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，這可能還牽涉到其他的，這部分請容我去了解一下，我再跟委員回報。"],["葉委員元之：其實已經找過你們了嘛！你們下面的人就在推託，我才會來質詢嘛！你們來開協調會的人可不可以有一點擔當？","第三個問題，那時候台灣金聯取得這個債權有登報，那一天來的時候台灣金聯說，我們有登報，是他自己沒看到。請問一下，它登什麼報？現在每一個人都有在看報嗎？你們現在金管的機制還是用這種上古年代的作法喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這可能是一個法定程序或是法規上……"],["葉委員元之：因為有很多制度的漏洞，因為召委已經站起來，我不想讓他為難，你能不能夠針對這個個案提出一個完整的檢討報告給我？召委，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：召委可以嗎？因為我們開協調會時他們派人實在是太顢頇了，我真的受不了。"],["主席：金管會要好好處理委員的這個協調會。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我剛剛已經說，這個報告我會……"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候？因為這個案子你們早就知道了，什麼時候？包括這個案子怎麼處理，包括制度怎麼解決，什麼時候給我一個檢討報告？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們兩個禮拜給委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員、謝謝彭主委。","接著請沈發惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156160","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156160","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b53341cc1bff0273c1a854d634de4a24c76d287313e08c4b32e4e34333fe8e0c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:47:08 - 12:55:38","影片長度":"00:08:30","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:47:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:55:38+08:00","duration":510,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.012218750000002,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.36159375,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.49971875,"end":26.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.676593750000002,"end":27.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.80284375,"end":29.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.304718750000003,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.04284375,"end":45.846593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.234718750000006,"end":47.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.77034375,"end":51.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.782218750000006,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.807218750000004,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.24159375,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.91221875,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.190343750000004,"end":63.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.59471875,"end":69.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.85971875,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.27721875,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.21784375,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.28096875,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.55909375,"end":79.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.33096875000001,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.21659375,"end":85.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.23284375,"end":86.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.90346875,"end":88.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.91159375000001,"end":92.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.07971875000001,"end":98.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.86784375,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.78284375000001,"end":104.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.67284375000001,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.79909375000001,"end":109.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.78596875000001,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.56221875000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.37159375,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.17721875000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.58159375000001,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.13784375,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.14159375,"end":129.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.17534375,"end":133.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.56284375,"end":138.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.94596875000002,"end":140.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.76846875,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.90721875,"end":146.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.11346875,"end":152.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.55596875,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.81721875000002,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.58034375,"end":156.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.61409375000002,"end":160.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.66409375,"end":162.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.55409375000002,"end":168.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.00034375,"end":179.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.91846875000002,"end":189.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.94221875000002,"end":193.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.70534375000003,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.95409375,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.96659375000002,"end":197.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.35034375,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.89846875,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.23159375,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.14659375000002,"end":205.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.76659375000003,"end":215.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.44034375,"end":217.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.27534375000002,"end":222.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.35096875000002,"end":220.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.50284375,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.89909375000002,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.97409375,"end":232.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.97346875000002,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.04471875000002,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.02721875,"end":241.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.00159375,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.11034375000003,"end":253.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.76409375000003,"end":250.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.39659375000002,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.44721875000002,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.71721875000003,"end":252.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.74659375000002,"end":255.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.79721875,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.19346875,"end":258.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.45471875000004,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.80034375,"end":260.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.03659375,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.37409375000004,"end":261.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.82971875000004,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.84659375,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.70221875000004,"end":275.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.16596875,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.66784375000003,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.86971875,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.73346875000004,"end":285.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.83846875,"end":292.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.47471875,"end":293.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.43659375000004,"end":294.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.82034375,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.16596875000005,"end":300.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.03034375000004,"end":302.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.34659375,"end":306.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.68346875000003,"end":308.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.52284375,"end":316.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.03221875,"end":316.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.72409375,"end":317.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.77034375,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.88784375,"end":322.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.04346875000005,"end":336.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.27471875000003,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.18971875,"end":334.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.35846875000004,"end":334.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.54409375,"end":334.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.41721875,"end":338.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.96534375000005,"end":339.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.94409375000004,"end":356.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.99784375,"end":347.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.21284375000005,"end":349.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.47346875,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.70096875,"end":356.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.88659375000003,"end":357.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.25784375,"end":361.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.27846875,"end":360.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.33721875000003,"end":364.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.61534375,"end":364.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.76721875000004,"end":366.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.78409375,"end":364.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.02846875,"end":368.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.59784375000004,"end":371.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.42846875000004,"end":375.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.14096875,"end":377.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.42784375,"end":377.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.76096875,"end":378.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.63846875,"end":386.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.89909375,"end":390.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.05909375000005,"end":387.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.95721875000004,"end":391.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.05846875000003,"end":392.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.79659375,"end":395.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.66534375000003,"end":407.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.10221875,"end":409.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.51971875000004,"end":411.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.10596875000005,"end":416.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.14721875000004,"end":419.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.36659375000005,"end":417.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.93159375000005,"end":430.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.90534375000004,"end":427.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.44909375000003,"end":433.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.12784375,"end":441.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.88284375,"end":436.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.81471875000005,"end":439.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.31221875000006,"end":443.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.36284375,"end":442.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.21909375,"end":444.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.35784375000003,"end":451.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.47596875000005,"end":447.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.48784375,"end":455.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.04409375,"end":457.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.20846875,"end":460.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.56659375000004,"end":461.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.32159375000003,"end":463.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.24971875000006,"end":464.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.85284375000003,"end":467.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.65409375,"end":469.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.24034375,"end":471.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.55221875,"end":473.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.72909375,"end":474.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.70784375000005,"end":477.55971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.16721875,"end":478.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.34846875000005,"end":480.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.32721875000004,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.96784375000004,"end":486.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.04784375,"end":486.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.06471875000005,"end":487.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.16596875000005,"end":486.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.52034375000005,"end":486.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.17846875000004,"end":488.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.11909375000005,"end":490.21596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.82346875,"end":494.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.37971875000005,"end":499.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.15159375,"end":497.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.16846875000005,"end":497.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.97846875000005,"end":498.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.99096875000004,"end":499.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.14284375000005,"end":499.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.06659375000004,"end":502.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.74534375,"end":505.96034375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.265,"end":40.843,"text":"主席、在台的委員先進、列席的政府機關社長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者女士先生有請彭主委、財政部的理次長以及國發會的詹副主委彭主委、理次長、詹副主委有請委員好部長好、次長好、還有副主委好來,今天的標題是世代分工投資公建銷匯回饋公建以租貸健病導入證券來,我們看一下"},{"start":42.195,"end":63.389,"text":"請問其實是要問主委跟部長部長不在請次長兩位主委先請次長財政收入應該區分何種族群何科什麼稅我們來看一下財政部我們高齡族群資產多年輕族群資產少消費率剛好相反那請問國家在稅收上資產稅跟其他所得稅你會覺得用什麼策略"},{"start":65.019,"end":84.517,"text":"高齡族群當然目前他資產的話就是所得稅還有就是贈餘稅或者是那青年族群呢青年族群目前我們多列一些寬減額因為他需要養家往下看目前我們是照顧他的基本生活需求彭主委跟我們次長、理事長"},{"start":85.322,"end":114.756,"text":"高齡族群他去高資產但是呢青年族群他少資產但是呢如果你讓他提高他的稅後可支配所得他的消費力提高如果今天有個公共建設他去使用比如說捷運啊比如說一些公共設施然後呢我們的高資產稅呢我們請這些資產者不要去投資持有高資產他去引導他投資公建而且同公建的使用可以得到回饋收益請問主委你覺得這樣的一個循環是不是一個正向可以創造國家利益的循環"},{"start":115.407,"end":138.352,"text":"如果從理論上來看高屬性客戶所需要能夠承擔的投資風險比較低假設公共建設能夠提供穩健而且具有保證的現金流確實適合他們投資很好 標準答案我看下一頁而且這樣有什麼好處政府的稅收就不用去多鎖定在資本門的公件他可以多投資國家的未來像青年的住房、育兒、醫療、減負擔請問主委覺得這樣好不好"},{"start":140.819,"end":168.412,"text":"其實我覺得就是過去我們可能從編預算只從利息角度來看比較沒有看到一個是政府的負債跟現金流的問題是的我想這個東西確實是可以解決比如說我們的高負債以及現金流的問題好少子女化的問題國發會也要面對國發會副主委認為如果我們國家的稅制和公建的調度上和國家的稅金的投資上做這樣的調整你認為是有助於我們因應少子化的問題"},{"start":169.239,"end":174.607,"text":"是沒錯所以我想這也是為什麼我們各部會現在在朝這個方向努力的一個原因"},{"start":174.963,"end":200.541,"text":"好 現在問題要請教主委跟次長我們PE跟REITS我們要導入什麼呢導入以租代鑑我先講一下軌道建設、機場跟電廠這具自償性你要做REITS要做PE其實都有大有人在 對不對但是呢政府有個東西呢其實可以來導入PE跟REITS譬如說監獄、植物宿舍政府的辦公廳舍如果政府不要自己花錢興建以租代鑑"},{"start":201.512,"end":205.64,"text":"請問一下這些公共建設有沒有可能用PE或綠紙來做請問主委"},{"start":206.826,"end":235.022,"text":"這個REIT的話是要必須跟不動產做連結是的那我們有兩種東西一種是純粹是這個不動產所創造出來的金流我只針對金流不對這個不動產本身這REIT要跟不動產綁在一起這兩個有個選擇就等於當然這個假設要跟不動產本身綁在一起當然是可以用REIT來做其實這裡面這些不管是監獄、植物宿舍、辦公廳它有一種說法叫PPP我們往下看今晚會跟財政部來思考一下你們有沒有已經盤點"},{"start":242.052,"end":262.163,"text":"其實我們在未來在兆雲投資計畫裡面也有人提到就是說比如說以社宅為例政府本來要花很多錢去蓋那如果說可以交給比如說保險公司或民間公司蓋好再租給政府政府再定期給那個租金形成一個穩定的金流這就是PPB的模式嗎是的好"},{"start":263.244,"end":284.924,"text":"市長,財政部有去盤點說我們政府的很多支出部分它其實是具有PPP的性質,要去購買服務你覺得你們財政部有去協助盤點各部會有這種需求嗎?有,我們有在協助盤點而且將來我們會配合那個就是目前我們抱怨的那個兆元投資發展方案會來進行進一步的盤點"},{"start":287.074,"end":301.731,"text":"這個事情我分別問過兩次首先在財委會我問過前黃主委就是說PE跟綠紫乙類公債有相似性乙類公債就是具有自償性可以國家來發行公債把公共建設用民間的公債來做"},{"start":307.355,"end":316.341,"text":"請問彭主委你覺得是不是這些乙類公債、PE、REIT不管是以租代件用PPV的方式或是公共建設有自償性的都可以這樣做"},{"start":317.902,"end":318.643,"text":"市長說到乙類公債,您覺得是不是具有這樣的類似性?"},{"start":340.037,"end":367.848,"text":"是而且我們現在我們以我們財政部來講其實我們也在積極推動發行一類公債從108年開始我們就一直在盤點這個非營業特種基金主管機關希望他們能夠利用來市長你抬頭看一下抬頭看一下是在三年前我就問過之前的蘇部長了是就說你們有沒有促餐之外發行一類公債有沒有結果呢結果呢結果多少百分之五啊"},{"start":368.652,"end":390.487,"text":"以內功在比例低是不是代表你們沒有盤點去推動從2021年我問到現在你們推動了多少來往下看你去講我們其實都一直有在盤點但是因為它有一個自償性的特色所以可能有是因為這樣的關係各部會的意願都不高啦我還問了一個就在去年問到你們的部長"},{"start":391.138,"end":408.795,"text":"我說ESG希望你們開始從去年開始推動ESG公債然後呢要盤點哪些項目可以發債來做ESG公債你盤點後不只可以知道哪些是ESG哪些是具有自償性的而且如果你盤點過了今年的一類公債比例又可以提高請問一下"},{"start":411.254,"end":426.918,"text":"你到底能不能告訴我現在政府部門有哪些公建項目可以導入證券化今年發行的多少 比例多少 有沒有答案導入證券化這件事情因為因為證券化條例還沒有通過所以目前還沒有但是我們今年有發行一個"},{"start":430.339,"end":431.519,"text":"我們的主委跟次長看一下我的訴求只有兩點"},{"start":456.307,"end":478.588,"text":"請金管會跟財政部尤其是財政部上次問過你們了你們還是一樣盤點的效率很差請盤點具已租代鑒以及自償性適合PVP模式的公共建設三個月提出書面報告當然金管會是不負責這個已租代鑒你們就提REITS跟PE那財政部的部分可不可以提出這個部分可不可以提出來"},{"start":480.353,"end":501.377,"text":"好下面第二題請研議明年擴大發行業績公正的方案三個月提出會面報告可以嗎可以配合辦理可以喔三個月喔上次已經給你們莊部長很久的時間了從去年的十月到現在我希望下次再問到你有一些進展好不好好非常謝謝彭主委非常謝謝次長以及安副主委謝謝謝謝主席謝謝鍾佳兵委員接著我們請岳炎之委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1135,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時47分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請彭主委、財政部李次長，以及國發會詹副主委。"],["主席：請彭主委、李次長、詹副主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，次長好，還有副主委好。本席今天的標題是「世代分工投資公建消費回饋公建以租代建並導入證券化」，先請教財政部次長，財政收入應該區分何種族群？核課什麼稅？我們高齡族群的資產多，年輕族群資產少，消費力能剛好相反，請問國家在稅收上，資產稅跟其他所得稅，你覺得要用什麼策略？"],["李次長慶華：高齡族群目前他的資產，當然就是所得稅，還有就是贈與稅，或者是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：青年族群呢？"],["李次長慶華：青年族群，目前我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：多列一些寬減額，因為他需要養家？"],["李次長慶華：對，基本上，目前我們是照顧他的基本生活需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高齡族群具高資產，青年族群少資產，如果你提高他的稅後可支配所得，他的消費力提高，今天有個公共建設，他去使用，譬如捷運或是一些公共設施，然後我們透過高資產稅，請這些資產者不要去投資持有高資產，引導他去投資公建，從公建的使用可以得到回饋收益。主委覺得這樣的循環是不是一個正向，可以創造國家利益的循環？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果從理論上來看，高資產族群客戶能夠承擔的投資風險比較低，假設公共建設能夠提供穩健而且具有保證的現金流，確實適合他們投資。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！標準答案！我們看下一頁，這樣有什麼好處？政府的稅收就不用都鎖定在資本門的公建，可以多投資國家的未來，像青年的住房、育兒、醫療減負擔，請問主委覺得這樣好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得過去我們編預算可能只從利息角度來看，比較沒有看到的是政府的負債跟現金流的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個東西確實是可以解決，我們的高負債以及現金流的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：少子女化的問題，國發會也要面對。國發會副主委，如果我們國家的稅制和公建的調度上、國家稅金的投資上，做這樣的調整，是否有助於我們因應少子化的問題？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，沒錯，我想這也是為什麼我們各部會現在朝這個方向努力的一個原因。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，現有問題要請教主委跟次長，PE和REITs要導入以租代建，我先講一下，軌道建設、機場跟電廠具自償性，要做REITs、要做PE，其實都大有人在對不對？但是政府有個東西其實可以來導入PE和REITs，譬如說監獄、職務宿舍、政府的辦公廳舍，如果政府不要自己花錢興建，以租代建，請問一下，這些公共建設有沒有可能用PE或REITs來做？請問主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：REITs是必須要跟不動產做連結。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有兩種東西，一種純粹是這個不動產所創造出來的金流，我只針對金流，不針對不動產本身，REITs要跟不動產綁在一起，這兩個有個選擇，假設要跟不動產本身綁在一起，那當然是可以用REITs來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實不管是監獄、職務宿舍、辦公廳舍，它有一種說法叫PPP。金管會跟財政部來思考一下，你們有沒有盤點或者用以租代建或具自償性適合PPP模式的公共建設，金管會有嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們未來在兆元投資計畫裡面也有人提到，比如說以社宅為例，政府本來要花很多錢去蓋……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果可以交給保險公司或民間公司蓋好再租給政府，政府再定期給租金，形成一個穩定的金流。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是PPP的模式。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。次長，財政部有去盤點政府很多支出部分其實是具有PPP的性質，要去購買服務，你覺得你們財政部有去協助盤點各部會有這種需求嗎？"],["李次長慶華：有，我們有在協助盤點，而且將來我們也會配合目前我們報院的兆元投資國家發展方案，會來進行進一步的盤點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，這個事情我分別問過兩次。首先，在財委會我問過前黃主委，就是說，PE和REITs與乙類公債有相似性，乙類公債就是具有自償性，可以由國家發行公債把公共建設用民間的公債來做，另外具自償性，可以用PE和REITs來做，現在多加了一個以租代建，請問彭主委，你覺得是不是這些乙類公債、PE、REITs，不管是以租代建用PPP的方式，或是公共建設有自償性的都可以這樣做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以租代建的部分當然不在我REITs的管轄範圍。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我覺得大家對REITs的期待很深，因為我們的REITs專法裡面已經規定要有一個一定比例的穩健收入為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個大概跟公債非常相像，我想這個都是可以替代。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。次長，說到乙類公債，您覺得是不是具有這樣的類似性？"],["李次長慶華：是，而且以財政部來講，其實我們現在也在積極推動發行乙類公債，從108年開始我們就一直在盤點非營業特種基金主管機關，希望他們能夠利用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請次長抬頭看一下，在三年前我就問過之前的蘇部長，就是有沒有促參之外發行乙類公債？有沒有？"],["李次長慶華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果多少？5%啊！乙類公債比例低是不是代表你們沒有盤點去推動？從2021年我問到現在，你們推動了多少？"],["李次長慶華：有，其實我們一直……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你繼續講。"],["李次長慶華：我們其實都一直有在盤點，但是因為它有一個自償性的特色，所以可能是因為這樣的關係受到一些限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：各部會的意願都不高啦！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我還問了一個，就在去年問到你們部長，我說希望你們從去年開始推動ESG公債，然後要盤點哪些項目可以發債來做ESG公債，你盤點後不止可以知道哪些是ESG、哪些是具有自償性的，而且如果你盤點過了，今年乙類公債比例就可以提高。請問一下，你們要研議到現在，你到底能不能告訴我現在政府部門有哪些公建項目可以導入證券化？今年發行多少ESG公債？比例多少？有沒有答案？"],["李次長慶華：導入證券化這件事情，因為證券化條例還沒有通過，所以目前還沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：條例還沒通過，所以是立法院的責任？"],["李次長慶華：但是我們今年有發行一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不需要條例，證券化不需要條例就可以發行乙類公債了。"],["李次長慶華：但是我們已經有發行ESG公債，目前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們乙類公債有增加了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：因為臺北市政府跟高雄市政府……"],["鍾委員佳濱：多少？"],["李次長慶華：今年就已經發了七檔的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：比例從5%增加了多少？"],["李次長慶華：比例啊？比例沒有統計。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！今天不是莊部長來，如果莊部長來，他就難看了！往下看結論了，請主委跟次長看一下，我的訴求就兩點，請金管會跟財政部，尤其是財政部，上次問過你們，你們還是一樣，盤點的效率很差，請盤點具以租代建以及自償性適合PPP模式的公共建設，三個月提出書面報告，當然金管會是不負責以租代建，你們就提REITs和PE，財政部的部分可不可以提出這個部分？可不可以提出來？"],["李次長慶華：可以，我們配合辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，下面第二題，請研議明年擴大發行ESG公債方案，三個月提出書面報告可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：可以，配合辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以？三個月喔！上次已經給你們莊部長很久的時間了，從去年10月到現在，我希望下次再問到你有一些進展，好不好？非常謝謝彭主委，非常謝謝次長以及詹副主委，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。接著我們請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}},{"id":"156159","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156159","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b2efaf3ebbbb1dda56b4c0e929d5f577f76d287313e08c4b34f2bf9e8252050fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:55:02 - 13:01:17","影片長度":"00:06:15","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:55:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T13:01:17+08:00","duration":375,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.30034375,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.434718750000002,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.122218750000002,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.915343750000002,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.47596875,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":22.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.609718750000003,"end":26.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.149093750000002,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.15221875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.54346875,"end":50.554718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.75721875,"end":55.195343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.36409375,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.42534375000001,"end":70.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.31096875,"end":94.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.71659375,"end":103.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.86284375000001,"end":105.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.02284375,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.93409375,"end":110.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.40596875000001,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.82721875,"end":116.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.09284375000001,"end":120.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.53534375000001,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.85096875,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.84596875,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.22534375,"end":137.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.32596875000002,"end":140.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.92034375,"end":142.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.24909375000001,"end":144.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.85221875000002,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.50159375,"end":165.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.41846875000002,"end":180.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.66096875000002,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.47096875,"end":183.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.91784375,"end":186.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.66409375,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.32971875,"end":195.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.20284375,"end":206.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.12096875,"end":207.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.43721875,"end":212.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.07784375,"end":217.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.02221875,"end":218.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.98409375000003,"end":223.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.99221875,"end":221.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.52346875,"end":227.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.28221875000003,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.58534375000002,"end":239.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.67284375000003,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.60284375,"end":280.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.97846875,"end":286.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.61909375,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.33909375,"end":302.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.29596875000004,"end":303.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.67971875,"end":316.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.96034375,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.44471875,"end":324.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.33471875000004,"end":326.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.49471875,"end":327.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.57034375,"end":328.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.97534375000004,"end":329.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.09346875,"end":329.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.78534375000004,"end":329.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.95409375,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.15659375,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.91596875000005,"end":337.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.95284375,"end":345.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.39471875000004,"end":347.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.52971875000003,"end":346.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.28471875,"end":357.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.12284375,"end":357.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.46034375000005,"end":361.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.56971875000005,"end":359.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.59909375,"end":360.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.18971875,"end":364.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.12159375000005,"end":370.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.67784375,"end":370.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.42846875000004,"end":373.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.50409375000004,"end":374.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.669,"end":25.818,"text":"謝謝主席,我們麻煩勞動部長部長,我想說從數據上面來看,其實我們現在臺灣的中高齡的勞動率只有64%那其實是遠低於日本、南韓還有美國的數據"},{"start":27.376,"end":40.379,"text":"所以說在我們面對現在臺灣有一些缺工的問題的時候其實鍾高麟他的參與也是一個很重要的這個解決缺工危機的一個問題我想請問一下對於這勞動力短缺目前勞動部有什麼計畫"},{"start":42.185,"end":62.943,"text":"對,我們從109年就開始有中高齡就業促進法所以其實這三年來已經補充了38萬的中高齡勞動力來進入就業市場那麼再來還會必須更加強因為我現在看就是說我們現在不以勞動部來說我們以國家整個政策來說我覺得國家對於中高齡的"},{"start":63.524,"end":65.165,"text":"2020年是好像386.7億然後明年我們是編到849億等於是這56年就漲了69.8%"},{"start":90.695,"end":110.483,"text":"所以這個東西我們從這個角度去看政府對於這個中高齡的人他的錢是花在怎麼樣長照但是對於所謂的那個壯世代的一些就業國家所提那個他所編列的預算或是他的著重卻不在那個地方所以"},{"start":111.443,"end":132.557,"text":"我覺得說這個年紀的人剛好是生活經驗最豐富的時候那因為現在像剛剛一直討論到那種健康的平均餘命等等的角度去看那事實上這些人其實剛好他的工作經驗最豐富而且依照現在人的體力其實這個年紀還體力非常的好"},{"start":133.297,"end":133.317,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":153.55,"end":153.71,"text":"議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":181.547,"end":206.442,"text":"是當然這還是需要改進的那有的甚至到那2.7年然後什麼那個不同職業別他那個狀況不太一樣也就是說其實每一個中高齡他已經有一點年紀了但他想要回到職場他卻要花非常長的時間那反而是這些時間也是等於是讓他年紀又個人更長那是不是說"},{"start":208.699,"end":218.131,"text":"國家在思考怎麼樣給這些人提供長照之外勞動部這邊也能夠多花一點精神對於這個壯世代的就業啊能夠"},{"start":225.85,"end":243.957,"text":"我看到你們的報告還有寫說什麼什麼好幾種計劃嗎那這幾年受惠的好幾萬人但是數據上面來看他們還是必須等兩年以上的時間才有辦法找到工作所以這個東西並沒有辦法說我就已經做了一個很好的政策很多人受惠了"},{"start":244.697,"end":266.927,"text":"那這也就是為什麼這麼多委員他其實是支持這個壯世代政策跟產業發展促進法為什麼大家會支持這個是因為我們希望把壯世代的這個力量能夠用到社會上面可以解決很多缺工的問題那甚至說壯世代呢我們也要讓他們對生活還是有一些有所期待啦否則到2070年嘛我們依據那個數據來看一個生產者要養一個老人"},{"start":273.19,"end":301.89,"text":"一份收入要養兩個人那這個其實對於年輕人的負擔也很大那最後我還是希望說跟部長分享一個就是我們之前看那個高年級實習生這個好像美國電影他其實他就是講一個70歲的一個人他回歸職場那他用他過去的經驗然後讓一個新世代新創產業的一個時裝店他回復到更好他變得更"},{"start":302.45,"end":327.621,"text":"做得更好所以他那時候他有一句臺詞就是說音樂家不會退休只要心中沒有音樂才會停止我相信很多中高齡的人他們對於這個社會或對於工作或對於自我的要求其實是滿滿的活力是不是說我們請部長將來也能夠支持我們對於這個促進法的推動然後我們一起來來把它做好看部長最後部長有什麼想法"},{"start":330.596,"end":342.362,"text":"我支持壯世代這樣的反年齡歧視的這樣的概念的倡議,可是它要形成一個法律就比較保留啦,還需要討論好嗎?"},{"start":345.464,"end":345.624,"text":"謝謝委員﹚謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1057,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時55分）謝謝主席，我們麻煩勞動部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，從數據上面來看，其實現在臺灣的中高齡勞動力只有64%，遠低於日本、南韓還有美國的數據，所以說，在我們面對現在臺灣一些缺工問題的時候，其實中高齡者的參與也是一個很重要的解決缺工危機的解方。我想請問一下，對於勞動力短缺，目前勞動部有什麼計畫？"],["何部長佩珊：我們從109年就開始有中高齡就業促進法，所以其實這三年來已經補充了38萬的中高齡勞動力進入就業市場，再來還必須更加強。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果不以勞動部來說，而是以國家整體政策來說，我覺得國家對於中高齡的政策面其實主要著力點還是在照護面，就像剛剛劉委員講的一樣，他也是講說國家主要還是在照顧面的計畫。所以像長照的支出，2020年好像是386.7億，明年編到849億，等於這五、六年就成長了69.8%，我們從這個角度去看，政府對於中高齡的人，錢是花在怎麼樣做長照，但是對於所謂壯世代的一些就業，國家所編列的預算或是它的著重點卻不在那個地方。我覺得這個年紀剛好是生活經驗最豐富的時候，像剛剛一直是從健康方面的平均餘命等角度去看，事實上這些人剛好工作經驗最豐富，而且依照現代人的體力，其實這個年紀的體力還非常好，不能拿50年前同齡者的體力來做比較，所以如果我們只把他以中高齡者看待，或者是把他當成被照護的對象，我覺得是不妥的，這個面向其實是不對的啦！所以國家政策本來就應考量要提供這些人什麼樣的幫助、協助，甚至能夠讓他重回職場。","部長剛剛說你們有很多個計畫，可能也花了不少錢，但是現在有個問題，就是中高齡求職者平均還是要花超過2年的時間才有辦法找到工作，這跟部長剛剛說的你們做了很多還是有滿大的落差，2年耶！對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，這還是需要改進的。"],["吳委員宗憲：有的甚至要到2.7年才找到工作，不同職業別的狀況不太一樣，也就是說，中高齡者其實已經有一點年紀了，當他想要回到職場，卻要花非常長的時間，而這些時間反而讓他更為年長，因此，除了國家在思考怎麼樣給這些人提供長照之外，勞動部這邊是不是也能多花一點精神，對於壯世代的就業再多努力一點？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["吳委員宗憲：不要讓中高齡者到現在還是很多人都不容易找到工作。我看到你們的報告還寫說你們有好幾種計畫，這幾年受惠的有好幾萬人，但是從數據上面來看，他們還是必須等2年以上的時間才有辦法找到工作，所以不能說你們已經做了一個很好的政策，讓很多人受惠，而這也就是會有這麼多委員支持必須制定壯世代政策與產業發展促進法的原因。為什麼大家會支持這個？是因為我們希望能把壯世代的力量用到社會上面，解決很多缺工的問題，甚至我們也要讓壯世代對生活還是有所期待，否則到2070年，以數據來看，我們一個生產者要養一個老人，也就是說，一份收入要養兩個人，這個其實對年輕人的負擔也很大。","最後我還是希望跟部長分享一下，我們之前看「高年級實習生」這部美國電影，其實就是講一個70歲的人回歸職場，用他過去的經驗，讓一個新世代新創產業的時裝店做得更好，那時候他有一句臺詞是說：音樂家不會退休，只有心中沒有音樂才會停止。我相信很多中高齡的人，他們對於社會或對於工作或對於自我的要求，其實是滿滿的活力，所以是不是請部長將來也能夠支持這個促進法的推動，我們一起來把它做好？請教部長有什麼想法？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，在前面報告時我有提過，我支持壯世代這樣反年齡歧視概念的倡議，可是要形成一個法律就比較保留，還需要討論，好嗎？建議貴院可以再討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，我不是質疑你到底同不同意，我只是希望能了解你的想法，當然，法案的部分，立法院這邊還是會想辦法推動，因為明年、剩兩個月我們就是超高齡社會，超高齡社會之後，我們總還是要有一些因應之道，不然我們都會老，小孩也會長大，總是要處理這個問題，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝部長。","繼續我們請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156158","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156158","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685ba6b5c6c43a0f73b76b4c0e929d5f577f76d287313e08c4b3cedbb00e0087671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:39:20 - 12:54:56","影片長度":"00:15:36","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案。\n【如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:39:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:54:56+08:00","duration":936,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.12784375,"end":1.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.08909375,"end":7.152218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.25346875,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.012218750000002,"end":12.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.58159375,"end":16.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.83846875,"end":18.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.36971875,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.12471875,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.90471875,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.72596875,"end":34.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.197218750000005,"end":44.361593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.93534375,"end":45.188468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.711593750000006,"end":47.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.517218750000005,"end":51.617843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.64721875,"end":53.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.853468750000005,"end":56.697218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.970968750000004,"end":60.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.945343750000006,"end":65.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.35846875,"end":66.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.77159375000001,"end":72.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.40784375,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.67346875,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.16284375000001,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.24659375,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.94659375,"end":82.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.00534375000001,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.62971875000001,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.19909375,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.26221875,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.13534375,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.80596875,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.44284375000001,"end":91.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.62409375,"end":95.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.67846875000001,"end":98.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.31971875,"end":96.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.27721875,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.63534375,"end":102.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.44096875000001,"end":104.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.24659375,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":110.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.79846875000001,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.78971875,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.96596875,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.82971875000001,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.86346875000001,"end":128.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.39471875,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.41846875000002,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.59971875000002,"end":144.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.37534375,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.02909375000002,"end":147.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.09221875,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.79596875000001,"end":153.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.86346875,"end":157.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.51284375,"end":161.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.56721875000002,"end":161.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.14471875,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.36784375000002,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.92284375,"end":187.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.59659375,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.76909375000002,"end":207.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.55534375000002,"end":209.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.88846875000002,"end":210.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.95159375,"end":214.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.79471875000002,"end":216.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.33471875,"end":217.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.54096875000002,"end":225.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.60409375,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.29534375,"end":226.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.02096875,"end":229.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.87721875000003,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.78846875000002,"end":231.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.99471875,"end":232.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.65284375000002,"end":232.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.83846875,"end":234.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.34034375000002,"end":238.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.31909375,"end":236.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.95596875,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.27659375000002,"end":240.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.68534375000002,"end":246.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.21596875,"end":250.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.23221875000002,"end":251.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.28284375,"end":252.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.31659375,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.69596875000002,"end":290.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.58596875,"end":255.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.32721875000004,"end":265.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.83721875000003,"end":268.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.00159375000004,"end":269.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.38534375,"end":270.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.57471875000005,"end":273.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.14221875000004,"end":287.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.17596875000004,"end":287.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.68596875000003,"end":291.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.91784375000003,"end":292.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.08659375,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.03909375,"end":301.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.07659375000003,"end":305.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.51909375,"end":312.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.28159375,"end":314.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.45846875,"end":319.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.89659375,"end":326.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.03534375000004,"end":323.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.84909375,"end":342.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.79596875000004,"end":351.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.71096875,"end":347.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.43596875000003,"end":373.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.12346875000003,"end":353.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.59596875,"end":353.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.83221875000004,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.84909375,"end":354.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.24971875,"end":355.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.28346875,"end":356.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.01034375,"end":377.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.52471875000003,"end":378.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.17846875000004,"end":379.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.76471875000004,"end":381.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.00909375000003,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.24534375,"end":384.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.47721875,"end":387.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.97034375000004,"end":394.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.44284375,"end":389.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.75471875000005,"end":390.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.90659375,"end":390.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.60221875,"end":398.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.47909375,"end":401.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.47034375000004,"end":401.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.97659375,"end":402.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.17909375000005,"end":406.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.65096875,"end":407.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.88284375,"end":415.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.32471875000005,"end":416.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.53534375000004,"end":418.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.65346875,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.58909375,"end":428.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.06096875000003,"end":430.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.78221875,"end":431.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.03096875,"end":433.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.33034375000005,"end":434.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.41846875000005,"end":437.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.24096875000004,"end":441.31221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.56534375,"end":457.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.49284375,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.96534375000005,"end":447.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.25596875,"end":450.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.08596875,"end":459.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.09409375,"end":460.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.35971875,"end":461.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.45659375,"end":464.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.66284375000004,"end":467.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.07596875,"end":468.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.51034375,"end":470.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.11346875000004,"end":472.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.13846875,"end":476.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.67784375,"end":478.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.11659375000005,"end":485.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.65534375000004,"end":487.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.78159375,"end":491.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.10596875000005,"end":492.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.70034375000006,"end":496.99971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.70409375,"end":499.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.96534375000005,"end":501.99471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.48409375000006,"end":502.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.28971875,"end":505.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.50034375,"end":507.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.42846875000004,"end":507.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.10346875000005,"end":508.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.12034375,"end":508.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.87971875000005,"end":525.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.33409375,"end":517.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.02971875,"end":521.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.35409375,"end":530.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.5134687500001,"end":531.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.52159375,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.49596875,"end":536.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.3647187500001,"end":542.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.0515937499999,"end":550.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.67909375,"end":551.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.9953437500001,"end":553.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.49721875,"end":554.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.3703437500001,"end":556.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.0578437500001,"end":558.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.81284375,"end":560.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.4453437500001,"end":562.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.44471875,"end":567.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.2122187500001,"end":570.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.33409375,"end":572.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.05096875,"end":581.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.76284375,"end":582.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.2140937500001,"end":586.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.39909375,"end":589.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.4072187500001,"end":590.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.79096875,"end":592.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.01846875,"end":593.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.0690937500001,"end":594.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.9253437500001,"end":596.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.96721875,"end":598.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.2790937500001,"end":600.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.6797187500001,"end":601.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.6753437500001,"end":603.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.41346875,"end":604.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.8603437500001,"end":608.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.9822187500001,"end":609.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.29846875,"end":619.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.15346875,"end":620.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.56221875,"end":623.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.25409375,"end":625.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.34221875,"end":639.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.2703437499999,"end":630.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.8859687500001,"end":631.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.88471875,"end":648.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.57221875,"end":641.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.10346875,"end":644.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.31409375,"end":645.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.3178437500001,"end":649.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.0603437500001,"end":661.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.94471875,"end":664.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.8215937500001,"end":668.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.88909375,"end":664.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.07409375,"end":669.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.5547187500001,"end":675.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.0772187500002,"end":677.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.1697187500001,"end":679.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.77284375,"end":680.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.9665937500001,"end":684.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.81409375,"end":686.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.09659375,"end":687.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.21846875,"end":700.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.34346875,"end":701.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.0647187500001,"end":712.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.79721875,"end":713.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.2865937500001,"end":716.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.9697187500001,"end":717.4209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.62784375,"end":720.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.42034375,"end":723.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.1497187500001,"end":728.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.7903437500001,"end":731.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.0772187500002,"end":731.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.69721875,"end":735.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":735.19034375,"end":738.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":738.5147187500002,"end":741.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.1853437500001,"end":740.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.97846875,"end":741.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.0290937500001,"end":741.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.8897187500002,"end":741.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.9740937500001,"end":742.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.0247187500001,"end":742.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.1428437500001,"end":742.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":742.51409375,"end":743.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":744.0834687500001,"end":750.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.1584687500001,"end":752.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.50846875,"end":752.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.49971875,"end":758.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.10659375,"end":759.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.24971875,"end":761.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.1609687499999,"end":774.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.7453437500001,"end":777.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":777.24284375,"end":779.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.60534375,"end":780.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.30971875,"end":783.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.1615937500001,"end":784.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.54534375,"end":786.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.49034375,"end":786.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.38471875,"end":789.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.4097187500001,"end":790.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.43909375,"end":790.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.74284375,"end":790.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.9453437500001,"end":801.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.85096875,"end":803.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":803.3315937500001,"end":807.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.68596875,"end":814.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":807.9890937500002,"end":809.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":811.12784375,"end":811.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":815.04284375,"end":818.5359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":819.31221875,"end":827.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.27721875,"end":830.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":831.52971875,"end":831.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.4409687500001,"end":833.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":834.71909375,"end":835.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":836.3390937500001,"end":837.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":839.54534375,"end":843.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":843.61221875,"end":847.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":847.69596875,"end":849.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":849.50159375,"end":850.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":851.1047187500001,"end":865.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":851.3915937500001,"end":851.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":859.60971875,"end":861.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":866.2078437500002,"end":872.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.6372187500001,"end":875.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":876.5859687500001,"end":877.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":877.9697187500001,"end":877.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":877.9865937500001,"end":879.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":878.30721875,"end":883.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.81284375,"end":910.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":885.49596875,"end":885.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":886.9809687500001,"end":887.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":887.31846875,"end":887.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":888.34784375,"end":888.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":888.3647187500001,"end":888.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":888.9722187500001,"end":889.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.22471875,"end":894.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.2878437500001,"end":894.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":908.8172187500002,"end":909.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":910.7747187500001,"end":911.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":911.8547187500001,"end":912.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":912.1753437500001,"end":913.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":913.91346875,"end":915.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":915.90471875,"end":920.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":920.6128437500001,"end":923.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":923.75159375,"end":925.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":925.30409375,"end":926.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.7765937500001,"end":929.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":929.84346875,"end":930.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":930.3159687500001,"end":930.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":930.7209687500001,"end":934.1297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":931.75034375,"end":933.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":934.61909375,"end":935.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":935.17596875,"end":935.2097187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.309,"end":21.616,"text":"好謝謝主席主席很厲害今天把八個部會都找來太棒了八個部會對台灣高齡者政策有具體的研擬的相關的項目的請上台"},{"start":25.263,"end":52.996,"text":"對高齡者政策相關面向有具體政策的還有相關法律依據制定的請上台。那就全到了嘛,對不對?那對中高齡者有具體的政策全部的面向有具體政策的請留下。"},{"start":55.902,"end":56.322,"text":"韓中高齡者"},{"start":84.362,"end":109.998,"text":"你有沒有再確定一下應該都有啦應該都有所以部長就統一代大家答覆,統都有那各位就請回吧,請留下何部長就好你們先確定一下吧你們確定有我想這個人口快速的變動大家都非常清楚不是今年年底"},{"start":110.851,"end":128.429,"text":"就是明年年初那最早在10年前是評估起來是到2026的時候臺灣要進到超高齡社會嘛對不對好然後現在提早一年就是2025那我個人感覺是到2024就12月底應該就達標了那達標之後什麼叫超高齡"},{"start":129.691,"end":144.23,"text":"當台灣的政府更多部會講說針對高齡跟中高齡都有相關這個面下的政策相關的法律在做這樣的應應那請問一下何部長你有針對超高齡者的部分來做處理嗎委員是指65歲以上嗎對"},{"start":148.357,"end":157.945,"text":"我這邊就是有中高齡就業促進法嘛。那裡面當然就涵蓋了高齡。65歲以上。這個是兩塊不一樣的嘛。中高齡跟高齡。45到65是中高齡。他們都有嘛。他們剛剛上來都是有喔。"},{"start":166.411,"end":177.832,"text":"麻煩拜託各位剛才上來的把你們交代幕僚把你們的高齡跟中高齡相關的政策面向法律依據提供給本委員會做參考剛剛有上來的部會"},{"start":179.333,"end":207.292,"text":"麻煩你一下你今天下午這個召委話喊休息前沒有提出來那我們大家就再請召委再排一次好好來檢討這個事情我為什麼會特別這麼問當台灣面臨到這個人口的結構快速轉變過程裡面在兩年前生不如死然後我們現在面對超高齡然後這兩塊坦白講就要讓台灣的所有的政府部門要很積極快速來做這個因應"},{"start":208.593,"end":214.148,"text":"那我必須要講高齡者的一個全面的面向的政策我們有定嗎?"},{"start":219.928,"end":240.05,"text":"委員,我們在行政院有因應超高齡社會對策方案。對策嘛,不是政策嘛。是,是,那是行政做事含法律。我們有針對高齡者的一個上位計畫嗎?有嗎?有啊。有。行政院這個就是啊。他叫名稱,麻煩你再請一下。而且從這個...名稱請再明確地跟委員...就因應超高齡社會對策方案。"},{"start":240.791,"end":264.509,"text":"那在這裡面我們今年再加進了中壯世代參與促進方案可是壯世代是這個方案這是外加的應該就是因應超高點社會對策方案應該我們都在臺灣嘛然後你在公部門我們在民意機關嘛那想這個人口快速的這個改變最主要它可能會連動的面向是非常廣的嘛對不對"},{"start":265.609,"end":289.825,"text":"有可能從教育嘛從文化嘛從產業嘛你想得到全部都會因為人口快速的改變他要跟著變嘛對不對啊跟著變有的變得很快有的就變得很慢就還有緩衝的機會但是有的真的是沒有緩衝的機會好那你現在講的就是說我們行政有一個針對超硬硬超高齡的相關的對策嗎是啊這個相關的對策是全能全面的"},{"start":290.726,"end":290.846,"text":"什麼時候訂的啊?"},{"start":315.526,"end":336.238,"text":"委員這個在20...我們在111年蘇院長時期就已經有這樣子的機制了那麼到今年今年這個機制當然蘇院長上來之後蘇院長繼續擔任這個召集人那麼陳時中政委主持了這一個"},{"start":336.838,"end":360.536,"text":"因應超高齡對策方案的這樣子的一個規劃跟執行因為你當過副秘書長應該對這事情很清楚了但是我還是請何部長還有各部會今天的代表可能要再回去檢視一下吧因為你如果跟台灣的百姓講說我們中央政府有訂一個來因應超高齡相關的這個對策"},{"start":362.297,"end":381.753,"text":"的這樣的一個積極的作為基本上那簡單就再講一句話說你知道台灣的老人政策是什麼嗎?高齡者政策是什麼嗎?你知道台灣百姓你可以去做民意調查台灣的百姓會回你什麼?不會回你那個叫做超高齡的因應政策會回你什麼?你知道嗎?就會回一項而已啦"},{"start":383.472,"end":408.463,"text":"長照2.0長照2.0是一個很重要的區塊但是這樣就本末倒置了啦為什麼叫本末倒置長照服務法的定義是什麼長期生理心理自己沒辦法治理啦要人家跟他料理啦那就是長照照顧的對象嘛那如果台灣的老人的政策是用長照2.0來focus的話那就代表"},{"start":409.005,"end":434.657,"text":"台灣的這個超高齡未來都要進入到長照都是身體心理長期自己沒辦法治理要讓人家料理所以這個是錯誤的所以我是要特別跟你表達就是到目前為止就讓我的感覺還有普羅大眾的感覺台灣針對超高齡的政策因應政策對策基本上他有這個輪廓但是不是很清楚啦"},{"start":436.465,"end":457.48,"text":"我要跟你表達是這樣啦所以這個請各部會是不是可以特別去思考一下那當然也給貴院就行政院也要特別去思考一下這個你講蘇院長的時候我在總質詢也都問過了但坦白講可以現在馬上來檢測了是有問題的這第一點那第二點因為部長你就留著我就持續問勞動部了"},{"start":462.53,"end":476.139,"text":"這個上個上禮拜就問這個臺灣居委通部長看一下這個是又是勞動力發展署嘛這個應該部長機由心上禮拜我們討論的是在職這次是職檢你們這個職檢宣言晚有一個叫做高齡者專區課程這應該是提供給高齡者在就業的一個培訓課程嘛對不對是好這是什麼狀況"},{"start":489.16,"end":504.967,"text":"你現在有電腦幕了,有電腦可以馬上按一下,它出現什麼?BUG是不是?BUG是什麼意思?BUGBUG是什麼意思?"},{"start":506.81,"end":531.449,"text":"請署長回應一下我們這個台灣九月通這裡面我發現這裡面可能我們在那個系統的設計上是有產生問題所以我們一些課程現在裡面沒有辦法去呈現出來對阿為什麼會這樣跟委員報告這個確實是我們剛剛部長的開宗明譽我們針對高齡者跟中高齡者我們就是有這一個九月促進法對不對阿你的網站為什麼會出問題"},{"start":532.537,"end":554.41,"text":"好沒關係我們再看45歲到65歲叫中高齡嘛對不對好你的45歲到65歲的之前的這一個訓練碗是什麼你提供給我們這些中高齡者要來做什麼之前訓練拖車司機連結司機連結了連結了是35棟啊如果連結了又拖澳大都OK了不是35棟整棟你自己去請媽媽的夜間物流司機"},{"start":561.622,"end":571.992,"text":"水域活動教練我不曉得部長對老化屬每個這種中高齡者的這些工作的之前訓練你有什麼看法"},{"start":574.687,"end":597.439,"text":"我講一個例子我曾經要在我們母縣讓這個夜醫牙醫急診可以來落實然後當時有嘉義市提出來然後雲林縣也提出來結果嘉義市到現在還在做嘉義縣雲林縣到現在不到半年就撐不下去了因為平均的牙醫師差不多在55歲"},{"start":599.632,"end":601.133,"text":"委員 什麼報告一下?"},{"start":628.267,"end":632.791,"text":"我沒有說45歲不用做這些事情啦但是你是45到65歲就練舉嘛叫中高齡嘛我就講清楚嘛那你覺得來沒有這樣的職業"},{"start":648.627,"end":669.66,"text":"OK嗎?委員其實45到65歲其實對於一些資深的一些職業駕駛的司機可能他還是有這樣的一個能力那當然這個我們會做一些適性的一個我就會講說我們有說一定不行嘛那你們有做過相關的評估嗎?你們職安署有沒有其他的意見?職安署職安署在嗎?你們職安署跟老化署有TESTV有共同坐下來討論說沒和這樣的"},{"start":678.223,"end":685.988,"text":"報告委員,我們治安署有訂那個有關於中高齡就業的這個安全衛生的指引。那我們跟勞法署在這個促進就業包含植物再設計的部分也有一些合作。"},{"start":702.093,"end":708.815,"text":"所以你們現在才開始要密切,之前都沒有密切?你們之前有密切,密切你覺得這幾個項目對中高齡是來沒有治安署的角度是適合的?治安署,請治安署回答,是適合的嗎?"},{"start":729.967,"end":758.577,"text":"這些都是高耗能體力的可能有些是產業別那也要顧慮到這個就是求職人他的個別的個別的他的身心狀況你們做過相關的一些評估嗎?應該是我們的勞安所或是說國際上應該也會有一些業別的調查有關於這個風險的程度那你怎麼會去調查?你們職安署的立場呢?其實還是要看看業別的這個風險是不是適合中高齡還有還有有做風險嗎?"},{"start":760.336,"end":761.197,"text":"有沒有給老花鼠意見?"},{"start":784.275,"end":799.505,"text":"還是沒有?你回答我就好 有沒有?呃 有沒有給意見?那個委員 45到65這中間其實說真的 45你說到55基本上這個都算 現在都還是算年輕"},{"start":800.305,"end":805.387,"text":"但是我剛剛跟部長就引譽夜間牙醫診所平均50歲的牙醫師坦白講就動不掉了啦對可是我要跟您強調他們這還不算危老行業啦"},{"start":819.369,"end":824.15,"text":"你的職安署已經在委員會講說這些屬於高風險的啊職安署已經講了啊不是就是說我們職安署"},{"start":839.946,"end":848.298,"text":"這個部分這個行業他是不是高風險你要去看他在實際從事的時候他的那個狀態吧就是說"},{"start":851.675,"end":875.203,"text":"你還給我回來了,不好吧,我是提醒這事情就是說我們要訂定高齡者跟中高齡者的相關的因應政策的時候要非常的嚴謹,訂了之後要有辦法去執行然後你們兩署如果對這一個基本上沒有共識那最好就是不要放上去這對老東部絕對是正面的事情嘛"},{"start":876.833,"end":905.364,"text":"這個我們回去檢討啦謝謝啦把那個指引再做一個更精細的行業別的檢討對啦你們應該是針對這個風險評估嘛對不對相關配套嘛還有這個就業的環境嘛這個可以給我們一個正式的研究報告再給我們委員會做參考好不好因為我坦白講這個台灣就業通110年度裡面編了1億嘛那明年好像是再多1000萬啦都不多啦但是就像上個禮拜我講那個事情到這個禮拜又是這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":906.344,"end":906.444,"text":"謝謝建國兄"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":957,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時39分）謝謝主席。主席很厲害，今天把8個部會都找來，太棒了！8個部會對於臺灣高齡者政策有具體研擬相關項目的請上臺。對高齡者政策相關面向有具體政策的，還有相關法律依據制定的請上臺。那就全到了嘛，對不對？那對中高齡者全部的面向有具體的政策請留下。你們都有？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，您指的是法……"],["劉委員建國：我第一個針對高齡者有訂定相關面向政策的，就留在這個臺上，第二個有含中高齡者有訂定相關面向政策的，就請留在臺上，沒有就請回去。"],["何部長佩珊：含中高齡？我一定有。"],["劉委員建國：你要不要再確定一下？"],["何部長佩珊：應該都有啦。"],["劉委員建國：應該都有？所以部長就統一代大家答復通通都有？那各位就請回吧，留下何部長就好。你們先確定一下吧，你們確定有？我想人口快速的變動，大家都非常清楚，不是今年年底就是明年年初，最早在十年前評估起來是到2026年的時候，臺灣要進入超高齡社會，對不對？好，現在提早一年，就是2025年，我個人感覺是到2024年12月底應該就達標了，那達標之後，什麼叫超高齡？當臺灣的政府這麼多部會說針對高齡跟中高齡都有相關面向的政策、相關的法律在做因應，那請問一下何部長，你有針對超高齡者的部分來做處理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員是指65歲以上嗎？"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["何部長佩珊：我這邊就是有中高齡就業促進法，裡面當然就涵蓋了高齡，65歲以上。"],["劉委員建國：這是兩塊不一樣的，中高齡跟高齡不一樣，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是，45歲到65歲是中高齡，65歲以上是高齡。"],["劉委員建國：他們都有嘛，他們剛上來都是有。拜託各位剛才上來的，交代幕僚把你們的高齡跟中高齡相關的政策、法律依據提供給本委員會做參考，剛剛有上來的部會，麻煩一下，今天下午召委宣告休息前沒有提出來，那我們大家就請召委再排一次，好好來檢討這個事情。我為什麼會特別這麼問？當臺灣面臨到人口結構快速轉變過程，兩年前「生不如死」，然後現在面對超高齡，這兩塊坦白講就讓臺灣的所有的政府部門要很積極、快速地來做因應。我必須要講高齡者的一個全人、全面向的政策，我們有訂嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們在行政院有因應超高齡社會對策方案。"],["劉委員建國：對策，不是政策嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：是，那是行政措施含法律。"],["劉委員建國：我們有針對高齡者的一個上位計畫嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有啊！行政院這個就是啊！"],["劉委員建國：名稱麻煩再請明確地跟委員會……"],["何部長佩珊：因應超高齡社會對策方案，在這裡面，我們今年再加進了中壯世代參與促進方案。"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["何部長佩珊：可是壯世代這個方案是外加的，主要就是因應超高齡社會對策方案。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我們應該都在臺灣嘛，你在公部門，我們在民意機關，人口結構的快速改變可能會連動的面向是非常廣的，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：有可能從教育、從文化、從產業，你想得到的全部都會，因為人口結構快速地改變，它要跟著變嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：跟著變，有的變得很快，有的就變得很慢，就還有緩衝的機會，可是有的真的是沒有緩衝的機會。你現在講的是我們行政院有一個針對因應超高齡的相關對策。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：這個相關對策是全人、全面地來做處理嗎？沒有吧？"],["何部長佩珊：是全面，含15個部會，每一個部會都有方案，然後421項措施，由院長擔任召集人，然後陳時中政委當主持實際執行。"],["劉委員建國：什麼時候訂的？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，在111年蘇院長時期就已經有這樣的機制了，那麼到今年，當然卓院長上來之後，繼續擔任召集人，陳時中政委主持了這一個因應超高齡對策方案的規劃跟執行。"],["劉委員建國：因為你當過副秘書長，應該對這事情很清楚。但是我還是請何部長還有各部會今天的代表，可能要再回去檢視一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：因為你如果跟臺灣的百姓說，我們中央政府有訂因應超高齡的相關對策這樣一個積極的作為，基本上，簡單就再講一句話說，你知道臺灣的老人政策是什麼嗎？高齡者政策是什麼嗎？你可以去做民意調查，臺灣的百姓會回你什麼？不會回你那一個叫做超高齡的因應政策，會回你什麼？你知道嗎？只會回一項而已啦，長照2.0。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然，當然，長照2.0是一個很重要的區塊。"],["劉委員建國：但是這樣就本末倒置了啦，為什麼叫本末倒置？長照服務法的定義是什麼？長期生理、心理沒辦法自理，要人家幫他料理，那就是長照照顧的對象。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：那如果臺灣的老人的政策是用長照2.0來focus的話，那就代表臺灣的超高齡未來都要進入到長照，都是身體、心理長期沒辦法自理，要讓人家料理，這個是錯誤的。所以我是要特別跟你表達，就是到目前為止我的感覺還有普羅大眾的感覺，臺灣針對超高齡的因應政策、對策基本上有這個輪廓，但是不是很清楚啦，我要跟你表達的是這樣，所以請各部會是不是可以特別去思考一下，那當然也請貴院行政院特別去思考一下。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們來反映。"],["劉委員建國：你講蘇院長的時候，我在總質詢也都問過了，但坦白講現在馬上來檢測是有問題的，這第一點。第二點，部長你就留著，我持續問勞動部，上禮拜就問臺灣就業通，部長看一下，這個又是勞動力發展署，部長應該記憶猶新，上個禮拜我們討論的是在職，這次是職前，你們這個職前訓練館有一個叫做高齡者專區課程，這應該是提供給高齡者再就業的一個培訓課程，對不對？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["劉委員建國：這是什麼狀況？你現在有電腦，幕僚可以馬上按一下，它出現什麼？bug，是不是？bug是什麼意思？請署長回應一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們這個臺灣就業通裡面，我發現可能在系統的設計上有產生問題，一些課程現在沒有辦法呈現出來。"],["劉委員建國：對啊，為什麼會這樣？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，這個確實是我們……"],["劉委員建國：剛剛部長開宗明義，我們針對高齡者跟中高齡者就是有就業促進法，你的網站為什麼又出問題？好，沒關係，我們再看45歲到65歲叫中高齡，你的45歲到65歲的職前訓練是什麼？你提供給這些中高齡者要來做什麼？拖車司機、聯結車司機的職前訓練，聯結車是35噸，如果聯結車又拖「後擔」，加起來就不是35噸，幾噸你自己去秤秤看，夜間物流司機、水域活動教練，我不曉得部長對勞發署推出中高齡者這些工作的職前訓練有什麼看法？我講一個例子，我曾經要在母縣讓牙醫急診可以落實，當時有嘉義市提出來，後來還有雲林縣提出來，結果嘉義市到現在還在做，可是雲林縣不到半年就撐不下去了，因為平均的牙醫師差不多在55歲，經不起晚上工作到這麼晚啦！嘉義市的牙醫平均年齡差不多四十幾歲，他們到現在還有辦法做下去。那你讓中高齡就是45歲到65歲來從事夜間物流司機、水域活動人員還有拖車司機的職前訓練。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，是不是報告一下，這個……"],["劉委員建國：媒合職業啦，講錯了，媒合職業啦。"],["蔡署長孟良：是、是、是，這個是就業徵才的一個登記。其實因為45歲以上基本上都在我們這樣一個……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有說45歲不能做這些事情，但是45歲到65歲這個range叫中高齡，我們就講清楚嘛，你覺得來媒合這樣的職業OK嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，其實45歲到65歲對於一些資深職業駕駛的司機來講，可能他還是有這樣的能力，當然這個我們會做一些適性的……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有說一定不行，但是你們有做過相關的評估嗎？你們職安署有沒有其他的意見？職安署！職安署的代表在嗎？你們職安署跟勞發署有共同坐下來討論說，媒合這樣需要重體力、要熬夜，然後放在中高齡的領域裡面，可以嗎？這樣好嗎？"],["許組長莉瑩：報告委員，我們職安署有訂定一個有關中高齡就業的安全衛生指引，我們跟勞發署在促進就業，包含職務再設計的部分也有一些合作，就是要注意這些被推介者在職場上的安全與健康。委員講的這個，我們會再跟勞發署密切配合……"],["劉委員建國：所以你們現在才開始要「密切」，之前都沒有「密切」？"],["許組長莉瑩：再更密切一點。"],["劉委員建國：你們之前有「密切」，那麼你覺得對中高齡者而言，媒合這幾個項目以職安署的角度來看是適合的？請職安署回答，是適合的嗎？"],["許組長莉瑩：我們……"],["劉委員建國：這些都是高消耗體力的耶！"],["許組長莉瑩：可能有些是產業別，也要顧慮到求職者個別的身心狀況，所以還是要評估。"],["劉委員建國：你們有做過相關的評估嗎？"],["許組長莉瑩：我們的勞安所或是國際上應該也會有一些業別的調查，有關這個風險的程度。"],["劉委員建國：勞安所當然會去調查，可是你們職安署的立場呢？"],["許組長莉瑩：其實還是要看看業別的風險適不適合中高齡……"],["劉委員建國：你們有做過風險調查嗎？"],["許組長莉瑩：有些的確是……"],["劉委員建國：針對45歲到65歲的中高齡者擔任聯結車的司機、夜間送貨的司機或者是從事水域工作，你們職安署覺得這樣OK嗎？你回答我OK，我就不會再問下去了啦！好不好？因為……"],["許組長莉瑩：對中高齡者有比較高的風險，這是沒有錯的。"],["劉委員建國：有高風險嘛！對不對？"],["許組長莉瑩：是、是、是。"],["劉委員建國：那你們有沒有給勞發署意見？還是沒有？你回答我就好！有沒有？"],["許組長莉瑩：有沒有給意見哦？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，45歲到65歲，其實說真的，比如說到55歲，基本上現在都還是算年輕，他擔任這種工作……"],["劉委員建國：你在說我，我可以認同。"],["何部長佩珊：他擔任貨車司機……"],["劉委員建國：你現在叫我去開聯結車，我還受得了，但是我剛剛跟部長比喻，以夜間牙醫診所而言，平均55歲的牙醫師坦白講就受不了了啦！"],["何部長佩珊：可是我要跟您強調，他們這還不算是危勞行業啦！因為你如果說45歲，真的現在還算相對體力是OK的。"],["劉委員建國：你的職安署已經說這些屬於高風險，職安署已經講了啊！"],["何部長佩珊：不是，就是說我們職安署……","這個行業是不是高風險，你要去看他在實際從事時候的狀態吧！就是說……"],["劉委員建國：部長，你再這樣答復就不好了吧！我是提醒這個事情，就是說我們要訂定高齡者跟中高齡者的相關因應政策要非常嚴謹……"],["何部長佩珊：有、有、有，我很重視這個。"],["劉委員建國：訂了之後要有辦法去執行。你們兩署如果對這個部分基本上沒有共識，最好就不要放上去，這對勞動部絕對是正面的事情嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：這個我們回去檢討。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：把那個指引再做一個更精細的行業別的檢討，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：對啦！你們應該針對風險評估、相關配套還有就業環境好好地檢討，這個部分請提出一個正式的研究報告給我們委員會參考，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好、好、好。"],["劉委員建國：因為坦白講，這個「台灣就業通」110年度你們編了1億，明年好像多1,000萬，增加不多，但這就像上禮拜我講的那個事情，到這個禮拜又是這樣的狀況，可能部長要特別注意。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：我一直是對事，我沒有在對人的啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["劉委員建國：這點大家還有委員會應該都非常清楚，但是如果我一直針對這個部會，還是針對這個單位、這個機關，對事對久了之後就會變成對人，我不希望發生這種事情啦！"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然。"],["劉委員建國：因為我們是在討論公共的議題，我不需要去對人。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：我請他們檢討，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝建國兄。接續我們請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-26,19-1","speakers":["蘇清泉","黃秀芳","邱議瑩","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","吳春城","陳昭姿","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","劉建國","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","林倩綺","林國成","涂權吉","蔡易餘","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","盧縣一","張嘉郡","陳超明","林憶君","邱志偉","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查委員吳春城等42人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案」案","agenda_id":"1139001_00002"}}},{"id":"156157","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156157","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b86b7e8347719a477acf2ea2eceb6ef265966be1ac5b6e0f93edf8563874a00ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:49:56 - 12:57:29","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航太曁無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:49:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:57:29+08:00","duration":453,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-2-35-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.0178437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.73409375,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.797218750000003,"end":34.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.59096875,"end":40.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.75471875,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.77159375,"end":39.940343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.940343750000004,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.97409375,"end":40.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.74596875,"end":57.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.30034375,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.62346875,"end":69.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.24784375,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.25284375000001,"end":100.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.66471875,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.98909375000001,"end":107.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.82846875000001,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.03596875,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.80784375000002,"end":131.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.82471875000002,"end":149.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.61096875,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.96534375000002,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.88471875000002,"end":152.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.95221875000001,"end":154.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.88846875000002,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.90534375000001,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.18784375,"end":157.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.79846875,"end":237.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.10346875000002,"end":247.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.95846875,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.36721875,"end":251.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.38409375,"end":251.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.41784375,"end":251.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.44721875000002,"end":260.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.44159375000004,"end":269.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.74846875000003,"end":271.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.87471875,"end":277.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.82284375,"end":301.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.82346875,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.55721875,"end":353.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.00096875,"end":358.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.21534375000005,"end":373.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.93034375,"end":377.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.32221875000005,"end":404.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.48659375000005,"end":431.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.09846875000005,"end":439.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.07596875,"end":444.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.94034375,"end":451.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.63971875000004,"end":452.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.46659375,"end":452.97284375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.029,"end":0.109,"text":"黃委員好"},{"start":10.851,"end":40.002,"text":"好 副部長好今天傳出一個消息我先在這邊請教你喔就是新市局有據說有最近破獲了一個在宮廟跟幫派他們吸收現役跟退役的軍人然後請他們拿著五星旗來拍攝投降影片以及請他們洩漏軍情不知道我們國防部這邊有沒有掌握是 報告委員我這部分我請鎮安局陳局長來跟您做詳細的說明好不好"},{"start":41.789,"end":67.921,"text":"委員好 這個案子是我們官兵陸續檢舉還有國安通報然後我們通報國安局統合相關的國安單位來共同偵辦那這個剛剛刑事局那邊還有高檢署也都有發布新聞那這個部分我們因為還在司法偵辦當中對於案情我們就不多做敘述"},{"start":69.656,"end":91.203,"text":"好那其實針對新聞的內容也提到了就如我剛剛說的包括現役軍人退役軍人全部都有在這一次的這個案件當中然後據這個新聞內容是指出他們每個人以賤計酬一個人可以拿3到15萬然後你就是拿著五星旗拍攝投降的影片然後必須穿著現役軍人的制服"},{"start":92.318,"end":106.683,"text":"那我不知道說如果現在這樣的情勢為真那我們接下來國防部是不是應該進行強力的檢討報委員我們對於官兵利益薰心"},{"start":107.881,"end":109.842,"text":"對於後續我們會持續的加強保防教育跟愛國教育那近年來我們破獲的這個共諜案有86%到87%都是我們官兵檢舉所以我們在保防教育的部分已經有成效那後續我們會持續加強"},{"start":131.852,"end":154.763,"text":"好 謝謝局長回覆 在這邊還是再次提醒因為這樣的滲透行為滋事體大那我也希望說接下來的保防機制除了說加強教育之外是不是還有其他的方式我們應該更強力嚴格大家一起來做更強的防範好不好因為看到這樣的新聞其實會讓人很失望啦大家對於我們國軍的信心"},{"start":155.965,"end":171.848,"text":"所以跟委員報告我們對於這些違反國外案件還有包含國家忠誠的問題對於國軍來講是絕對不容許我想剛才偵探局陳局長也跟委員做了一個詳細的說明對於這些設有犯行的這些官兵"},{"start":172.328,"end":190.731,"text":"我們一定是依法就辦,絕對不會寬重。那剛才委員所提到除了我們要加強我們的保防教育之外,包含我們法律司,我們對於整個法紀的維護,還有對於法律的一個這個宣導,案例的這個宣導,我們都會持續的進行。我想這件事情也給我們一個非常好的一個借鏡了。感謝委員這個指導。"},{"start":191.837,"end":218.844,"text":"好 謝謝副部長的補充那這個接下來拜託大家一起來防範那再來我想要請教的是因為其實前兩天日本的NHK其實有發布一個紀錄片就是針對這個安巡公司我不知道說我們國防部裡面有沒有去看了一下這個相關的內容其實裡面有提到說這個追蹤中國洩漏的文件涉及20幾個國家其中台灣就一定是非常重要他們要鎖定的對象"},{"start":219.804,"end":247.495,"text":"那這個其實裡面他也提到非常具體這個安巡公司做什麼呢他針對台灣把台灣的一些關鍵的基礎設施包括我們公路啊然後一些地形然後路線全部都把資料整理起來然後提供給中國的公安部門以及解放軍的部門那我不知道說我們國防部現在有沒有掌握到這一些相關的資訊洩漏到什麼程度有沒有是非公開資訊但是已經被掌握的呢"},{"start":248.121,"end":249.242,"text":"國軍平常只有設置治安防護安管理中心24小時監控"},{"start":261.513,"end":277.731,"text":"那如果遇到異常的情況的話我們都會適時的通報跟反映那我們市裡面每年也會針對我們各單位所以像是安巡公司這樣子的行為是沒有發現我們檢視過之後沒有這樣任何的惡意行為跟這個跟還有駭客的工具"},{"start":278.848,"end":301.14,"text":"好,謝謝次長的說明,我在這邊是想要提醒啦,雖然可能他們現在整理的都還是一些公開的資訊,包括一些他們其實裡面有具體的提到喔,就是台灣的公路、地形、橋樑、隧道的位置都已經在他們整理給中國的公安部門,都已經整理好了,然後這也是他們現在重點要網路攻擊的對象。"},{"start":301.96,"end":330.209,"text":"那除了接下來當然你們隨時都在監控這個是必要的那其實在美國的跨黨派的智庫的主席他也有示警說這些都是對他們來說除了這些是必要的之外接下來他們的意圖很明顯嘛就是在未來有可能要嘗試在佔領台灣或是任何軍事行動的時候他們可以精準的調動裝甲的部隊以及兵力那我相信這個都是我們在這一次的NHK的這個紀錄片裡面我們必須要示警而且必須要加強防範的"},{"start":331.604,"end":358.383,"text":"那再來當然因為其實現在中共對於這個相關從這一次的這個事件就可以看得出來他們的資訊戰這10年來的演練已經到一個程度包括說跟這一些他們自己的資訊公司合作然後進行這些20幾個國家的網路的攻擊以及監控那我不知道說國防部在這方面有沒有任何的防範以及接下來的加強呢有 報告委員我再請通知就我們這一部分資安防護的部分再跟您做進一步的說明"},{"start":359.249,"end":376.641,"text":"我們國防部本來就已經納入了行政院的這個國家資通安全的匯報裡面那如果發生任何的資安通報我們事實上會跟這個速發部裡面的這個國家電腦緊急應變中心回報那各部會之間都可以互相通聯然後一起共同防處"},{"start":377.341,"end":404.64,"text":"好 謝謝次長說明我在這邊是想要提醒啦因為現在錯假訊息的應對其實對很多台灣人來說這個都是非常迫切的那我現在認為政府做的其實還不太夠怎麼說呢因為包括前陣子有一個民防法被造謠然後說什麼總統下令16歲學生要造冊上戰場這件事情很明顯就是一個錯假訊息但是我們應對的方式就只是在教育部的網站上面說這是假的"},{"start":405.561,"end":428.451,"text":"那你認為這樣的應對是夠的嗎?所以其實像剛剛次長說的這個是一個必須要跨部會大家一起來整合的東西那面對資訊戰我希望能做的是國防部竟然是一個政戰最高單位那我希望接下來要協助各部會包括你看連教育部都會被攻擊不管是樹發部甚至到我們各個農業部都有可能有錯假訊息的被攻擊的樣態那你們應該要去統合"},{"start":432.173,"end":433.934,"text":"感謝委員指導,我們會把委員的意見納入我們重要的參考。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時49分）謝謝主席，我們請副部長。"],["主席：請副部長。"],["徐副部長衍璞：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：副部長好。今天傳出一個消息，我先在這邊請教你，據說刑事局最近破獲了一個宮廟跟幫派吸收現役及退役軍人，請他們拿著五星旗拍攝投降影片，以及請他們洩漏軍情。不知道國防部這邊有沒有掌握？"],["徐副部長衍璞：報告委員，這部分我請政戰局陳局長來跟您作詳細的說明。"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["陳局長育琳：委員好。這個案子是我們官兵陸續檢舉，還有國安通報，然後我們通報國安局，統合相關國安單位共同偵辦，剛剛刑事局那邊，還有高檢署也都有發布新聞，這個部分因為還在司法偵辦當中，對於案情我們就不多作敘述。"],["黃委員捷：好。其實新聞內容也提到了，就如我剛剛說的，包括現役軍人、退役軍人，全部都有在這一次的案件當中，據新聞內容指出，他們每個人以件計酬，一個人可以拿3到15萬，然後就是拿著五星旗拍攝投降的影片，必須穿著現役軍人的制服。我不知道如果現在這樣的情事為真，接下來國防部是不是應該進行強力的檢討？"],["陳局長育琳：報告委員，我們對於官兵利慾薰心，背叛國家的行為，我們嚴厲的譴責，對於後續，我們會持續加強保防教育跟愛國教育。近年來，我們破獲的共諜案有86%到87%都是我們官兵檢舉，所以我們在保防教育的部分已經有成效，後續我們會持續加強。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝局長回復。我在這邊還是再次提醒，因為這樣的滲透行為茲事體大，我也希望接下來的保防機制除了加強教育之外，是不是還有其他的方式，我們應該更強力嚴格，大家一起來做更強的防範，好不好？"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["徐副部長衍璞：是。"],["黃委員捷：因為看到這樣的新聞，其實會讓人很失望，大家對於我們國軍的信心也會受影響。"],["徐副部長衍璞：所以跟委員報告，我們對於這些違反國安的案件，還有包含國家忠誠的問題，對於國軍來講，是絕對不容許！我想剛才政戰局陳局長也跟委員做了詳細說明，對於這些涉有犯行的官兵，我們一定是依法究辦，絕對不會寬縱。剛才委員提到除了我們要加強我們的保防教育之外，包含我們法律司，對於整個法紀的維護，還有對於法令的宣導、案例的宣導，我們都會持續進行。我想這件事情也給我們一個非常好的借鏡，感謝委員指導。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝副部長的補充。接下來拜託大家一起來防範。","再來我想要請教的是，因為前兩天日本NHK 有發布一個紀錄片，就是針對安洵公司，我不知道國防部裡面有沒有去看一下相關的內容，其實裡面有提到追蹤中國洩漏的文件，涉及二十幾個國家，其中臺灣就一定是非常重要他們要鎖定的對象，裡面也非常具體提到安洵公司做了什麼，它把臺灣一些關鍵基礎設施，包括我們的公路，還有一些地形、路線，全部都把資料整理起來，然後提供給中國的公安部門以及解放軍的部門，我不知道我們國防部現在有沒有掌握到這些相關資訊洩漏到什麼程度，有沒有是非公開資訊，但是已經被掌握的呢？"],["徐副部長衍璞：報告委員，這部分請我們通資室次長跟你作個詳細說明，好嗎？"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["鄧次長恩憐：委員好，我是通資室次長鄧恩憐。我們國軍平常就有設置資安防護管理中心，24小時監控，如果遇到異常情況的話，我們都會適時通報跟反映，我們室裡面每年也會針對我們各單位……"],["黃委員捷：所以像是安洵公司這樣子的行為……"],["鄧次長恩憐：是沒有發現，我們檢視過之後沒有任何惡意行為，還有駭客的攻擊。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長的說明。我在這邊是想要提醒，雖然可能他們現在整理的都還是一些公開的資訊，其實裡面有具體提到臺灣的公路、地形、橋梁、隧道的位置，他們都已整理好給中國的公安部門了，然後這也是他們現在重點要網路攻擊的對象，當然你們隨時都在監控，這個是必要的。其實美國跨黨派智庫主席也有示警說，這些對他們來說除了這些是必要的之外，接下來他們的意圖很明顯，就是在未來有可能要嘗試占領臺灣或是任何軍事行動的時候，他們可以精準的調動裝甲部隊以及兵力，我相信這都是在這一次NHK紀錄片裡面，我們必須要示警，而且必須要加強防範的。","再來，從這一次事件就可以看得出來，中共的資訊戰在這十年來的演練已經到一個程度，包括跟他們自己的資訊公司合作，然後進行二十幾個國家的網路攻擊以及監控，我不知道國防部在這方面有沒有任何防範，以及接下來的加強呢？"],["徐副部長衍璞：有，報告委員，我再請通資室次長就我們資安防護的部分，再跟您做進一步的說明。"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們國防部本來就已經納入行政院國家資通安全會報裡面，如果發生任何資安通報，我們會跟數發部的國家電腦緊急應變中心回報，各部會之間都可以互相通聯，然後一起共同防處。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長說明。我在這邊是想要提醒，因為現在錯假訊息的應對其實對很多臺灣人來說都是非常迫切的，我現在認為政府做的其實還不太夠，怎麼說呢？因為包括前陣子有一個民防法被造謠，然後說總統下令16歲學生要造冊上戰場，這件事情很明顯就是一個錯假訊息，但是我們應對的方式就只是在教育部網站上面說這是假的，你認為這樣的應對是夠的嗎？所以像剛剛次長說的，這是一個必須要跨部會大家一起來整合的東西，面對資訊戰，國防部既然是一個政戰最高單位，我希望接下來要協助各部會，你看連教育部都會被攻擊，不管是數發部，甚至農業部，都有可能有錯假訊息被攻擊的樣態，你們應該要去統合成立一個類似北約卓越中心等等的相關組織，統一帶領大家作戰。"],["徐副部長衍璞：感謝委員指導，我們會把委員的意見納入我們重要的參考。"],["黃委員捷：好，我希望這是國防部在這邊非常誠摯建議大家應該要審慎思考的，謝謝。"],["徐副部長衍璞：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員，副部長請回。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除了不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。委員口頭質詢未有答復部分，要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，散會。","散會（12時58分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-8","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","黃仁","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","羅智強","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","黃捷"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用現況與未來發展機會及挑戰，並就協助中科院推動民雄航\n太暨無人機產業園區的開發作業進度及概況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00002"}}},{"id":"156156","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156156","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bb069599899a2ad98e0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f9e2bac01cfa5d53fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"12:42:44 - 12:53:54","影片長度":"00:11:10","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:42:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:53:54+08:00","duration":670,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.58721875,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.363468750000001,"end":7.709093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.36721875,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.35409375,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.391593750000002,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.867843750000002,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.26846875,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.44846875,"end":33.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.50659375,"end":40.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.39596875,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.408468750000004,"end":41.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.150968750000004,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.09159375,"end":48.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.73221875,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.47471875,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.92596875,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.39409375,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.634093750000005,"end":59.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.101593750000006,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.860968750000005,"end":62.485343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.85596875,"end":67.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.89346875000001,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.66534375,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.30221875000001,"end":74.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.75346875000001,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.62659375,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.21284375,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.96284375,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.97534375000001,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.21159375,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.34971875000001,"end":93.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.82159375,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.85471875,"end":101.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.78659375000001,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.64596875000001,"end":119.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.48909375000001,"end":125.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.39096875000001,"end":139.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.80659375000002,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.64096875,"end":189.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.36409375000002,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.55721875,"end":198.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.76784375000003,"end":206.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.61534375000002,"end":206.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.36159375000003,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.49659375000002,"end":254.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.41971875000002,"end":214.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.15721875000003,"end":223.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.81784375,"end":232.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.85096875000002,"end":235.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.38159375,"end":241.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.56159375000001,"end":249.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.52284375000002,"end":265.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.55659375000002,"end":255.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.01096875,"end":265.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.53784375000004,"end":306.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.57159375000003,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.33784375000005,"end":331.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.18034375,"end":317.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.22596875,"end":318.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.00221875,"end":322.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.60846875000004,"end":328.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.89096875,"end":328.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.97534375000004,"end":368.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.36971875,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.27721875000003,"end":376.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.10721875,"end":393.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.24409375000005,"end":391.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.83471875000004,"end":393.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.01159375000003,"end":436.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.31596875,"end":419.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.17784375,"end":444.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.68409375000005,"end":455.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.22159375,"end":470.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.85409375,"end":457.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.04596875000004,"end":476.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.18909375000004,"end":473.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.32784375000006,"end":486.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.39534375000005,"end":477.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.28471875,"end":484.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.04784375,"end":486.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.06471875000005,"end":494.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.21659375,"end":487.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.54971875,"end":488.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.30846875000003,"end":498.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.68721875000006,"end":500.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.25659375000004,"end":500.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.94846875,"end":501.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.67409375000005,"end":501.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.75846875,"end":501.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.77534375000005,"end":501.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.79221875,"end":501.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.82596875,"end":507.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.84284375000004,"end":504.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.82971875000004,"end":506.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.44534375,"end":507.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.46221875000003,"end":507.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.64784375000005,"end":507.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.71534375000005,"end":518.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.73221875,"end":509.20034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5828437499999,"end":521.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.43471875,"end":535.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.93034375,"end":535.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.94721875,"end":536.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.4028437500001,"end":536.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.8584687499999,"end":537.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.8584687499999,"end":538.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.6259687500001,"end":540.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.12784375,"end":546.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.20721875,"end":563.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.94909375,"end":552.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.8584687499999,"end":564.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.9722187500001,"end":572.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.3803437500001,"end":573.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.16909375,"end":576.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.41346875,"end":576.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.4890937499999,"end":578.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.6240937499999,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.79284375,"end":579.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.9740937500001,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.0247187500001,"end":580.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.10909375,"end":580.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.3959687500001,"end":580.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.51409375,"end":582.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.9778437500001,"end":590.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.16346875,"end":583.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.6728437500001,"end":599.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.1272187500001,"end":599.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.17784375,"end":599.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.2622187500001,"end":599.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.3972187500001,"end":599.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.5322187500001,"end":599.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.59971875,"end":599.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.61659375,"end":599.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.63346875,"end":599.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.7009687500001,"end":599.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.8528437500001,"end":600.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.90346875,"end":607.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.27409375,"end":609.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.6997187500001,"end":607.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.8178437500001,"end":607.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.62346875,"end":615.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.6740937500001,"end":624.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.1909687500001,"end":624.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.8953437499999,"end":626.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.1315937500001,"end":626.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.9540937500001,"end":626.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.34221875,"end":635.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.12221875,"end":631.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.42159375,"end":670.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.8428437499999,"end":638.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.3359687500001,"end":640.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.38221875,"end":643.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.57221875,"end":668.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.97284375,"end":669.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.93034375,"end":670.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.646,"end":33.321,"text":"謝謝召委有請書發部林次長林次長這裡顯示的是委員好次長好今天我是要來糾舉一件事情是書發部你們自己可能被騙了而且全國人民都被你們騙了你們的通查網我想要通查詐騙集團可能要先通查一下自己"},{"start":35.191,"end":59.103,"text":"在先前呢你們可以看到這個等一下現在這個畫面等一下這個AI現在暫時在播放投影片的時候幫不太了忙這個沒有投出來對不起時間先暫停一下抱歉可能這個數位世界沒有因為他這裡的螢幕跟這裡是不一樣的對有沒有"},{"start":66.909,"end":79.498,"text":"對不起喔稍微對我們現在在不好意思在時間先暫停一下我們今天這個議題很重要電腦都緊張了不好意思"},{"start":105.838,"end":112.703,"text":"好 可以了當然我不知道等一下可不可以進行但沒關係 謝謝時間可以繼續謝謝召委也謝謝次長"},{"start":114.81,"end":138.472,"text":"這件事情通茶網10月14號的時候我質詢完以後速發部火速下架我們本來以為這是一個負責任的態度你們說結束公測下架精進嗎在此跟各位告知大家都被騙了通茶網還在幾千幾萬筆詐騙集團的資料全部還在網路上面甚至我們用戶還可以登入"},{"start":140.314,"end":157.072,"text":"這種假性下架的做法到底是在騙誰到底是在騙誰這是誰的疏失所有幾千幾萬筆詐騙集團的圖片、文字現在都還收羅在網路上面在增加詐騙集團的搜尋排序嗎在幫他們抬轎嗎這些網站、網址"},{"start":160.316,"end":189.025,"text":"理論上都不應該由速發部去備存還要來幫他們加分這裡面有很多隱私、很多侵權、很多違法甚至情色小說在上面的這些風險結果咧所有的網站內容全部現在是被Google收羅完全都還在我今天為什麼要接我自己的電腦是因為待會還有時間我直接表演給你看全部都是在網路上面每一頁都可以連結"},{"start":190.607,"end":197.056,"text":"現在這些你說下架了結果這些網站都還在用的是哪一台主機用的是誰的錢你知道這個網站還在嗎"},{"start":199.086,"end":218.773,"text":"是我想委員您是專家我想這不是專家的問題你們10月13號的新聞稿說已經下架了在開發的時候一定會經過Alpha Test還有Beta TestAlpha Test通常就是現在到底下架了沒然後我們接下來會做公測然後我們現在已經做完公測以後我們10月14號的新聞稿下架了"},{"start":221.834,"end":248.093,"text":"現在到底下架了還在嗎如果說委員我們所謂的下架是在Apple App Store還有Google Play上面我們已經下架了現在所有網路資料都還在為什麼不關機為什麼網頁不移除我想你是專家你一定知道就是說在軟體界就是這樣子運作的就是這個App在做進行公測的時候我們已經從App App Store下架以後那原來的使用者還是可以繼續使用而原來這個使用者繼續使用的話"},{"start":249.554,"end":264.583,"text":"其實他這些我們現在看到這些詐騙資訊我們是會進行處理網頁全部還可以連您可能沒有搞懂我的意思所有的網頁都還在用戶還可以登入不是APP我說的是網站"},{"start":266.918,"end":270.04,"text":"網頁還在沒有關係這會造成什麼問題你們都在幫詐騙集團的網站抬轎、加分、增加他們的搜尋、排訓中國大陸的詐騙網址現在列在你們速發布產業署的網站上面然後呢我們搜尋了什麼"},{"start":287.028,"end":293.711,"text":"當沖班長這個詐騙集團已經被金融金管會已經驗證是詐騙集團結果現在搜尋當沖班長會出現速發布的網頁結果前一天晚上搜尋其他真正詐騙集團的網頁排序節節升高"},{"start":303.334,"end":319.771,"text":"你們這不是在幫他的SEO抬轎這是什麼我原講的齁譬如說那個就是有仿冒名人的這個網站那仿那個仿冒既然是仿冒名人名人他的網站當然還會我還沒講到仿冒名人我講的是詐騙集團的網站被列在你們的官網下面這是一種抬轎的行為喔"},{"start":322.774,"end":340.554,"text":"只要列在我們官網上面我們就會通知這些網路廣告平台包含Meta包含Line包含Google你們的通茶網已經下架你把它下架了但是列在你們速發部的官網啊還有你剛剛講的侵權的、冒名的問題這些主持人的名字都還在"},{"start":341.616,"end":353.393,"text":"還在你們的官網上而且把他們的名字跟這些詐騙字樣連結在一起這樣有沒有侵害民眾的權益呢好再來我們看10月14號你們發了新聞稿開了這些說明說下架了"},{"start":358.059,"end":373.868,"text":"結果10月18日賴清德總統的網站被剪取你們還幫他改還幫他驗證結果我自己剪取另外一個假罵我的名字的到現在沒有下文"},{"start":374.548,"end":393.253,"text":"這是什麼差別在於這是什麼演算法如果說有人就是仿冒那個委員的身份的話事實上這就是我們這個網站通報查詢網的目的那我們會盡快的要求Line還有那個Meta還有Google他都跟我們簽了那個他們都會提供我們特殊的通道市長您不要激動是"},{"start":394.173,"end":418.618,"text":"我在講的是這整個網站所有詐騙集團的資料網址、連結、文字、圖片現在通通在速發布的主機裡面我沒有在講蘋果我沒有在講大公司是你們的團隊你們的廠商你們的計劃我再講一件事情我已經提了我10月14號說"},{"start":420.018,"end":435.491,"text":"不應該違法收入這些人的圖片你沒有權利結果呢你們的工程師下架以後持續修改就算了他說我把圖片打蒙啊我保護人權啊結果呢程式碼打開來一看原圖還在"},{"start":437.233,"end":459.993,"text":"他幹嘛?他是這麼愛這些圖片嗎?原圖還在,他只適用前端特效,這是怎麼回事啊?四百多位的公眾人物,我們列入我們的白名單保護機制,我們都有取得他的同意這個不是我們片面跟他,就是取用他的那個照片所以你有取得賴清德總統的同意,提供資料,你有取得朱楚文的照片的資料"},{"start":460.393,"end":469.013,"text":"你有提供同意你有取得吳淡如小姐的資料你有取得她的同意你有取得她們的同意把她的名字在速發布的官網跟詐騙兩個字綁在一起"},{"start":471.095,"end":494.982,"text":"我們是把那個仿冒名人的詐騙所以我說你們這樣的說法就是在騙下架了還在各位委員報告我們沒有在騙我們是在反詐騙我們就是要防止我只問了下架了沒網站不是下架了為什麼還在為什麼還可以登入我們說的下架是從App Store跟Google Play上面下架沒有啊你網站你網站現在是這樣寫的啊你網站現在是寫說下架啊"},{"start":499.083,"end":517.843,"text":"結束公測啊,不是嗎?我們現在打開看嘛,結束公測嘛,什麼功能都不能用嘛,結果咧?全部還在啊,我現在每一頁打開,全部是詐騙集團的資訊全部是詐騙集團的資訊,都還在啊,我現在即時連給你看啊,哪裡下架了"},{"start":518.655,"end":534.761,"text":"市長你說哪裡下架了App Store下架了你說公測結束是你說公測結束下架精進是你說通查網會精進改善網頁設計是統一名稱不會宣傳並下架測試網不是嗎這不是還在嗎是我們市長App Store下架了是"},{"start":539.67,"end":561.239,"text":"那網頁為什麼還在因為我們這個系統不能停止因為我們每天都在面對詐騙我們這個網路你們這些資料記錄在這裡就是在幫詐騙集團搜尋排序啦我告訴你啦我現在直接列給你看這些全部是齁我們直接看我們搜尋當沖班長底下全部都是詐騙網頁當沖班長詐騙下一頁"},{"start":565.06,"end":574.785,"text":"你們現在啊政府部會的網站排序都很高啦速發部速發部就在這裡第二頁你是在幫當沖班長廣告嗎"},{"start":578.75,"end":585.494,"text":"你是要幫他抬轎嗎那個當沖班長我不知道但是那個我直接告訴你為什麼詐騙集團要這樣做啦你看這些高中的網頁啦他們都被入侵啦這些公家部門的網站對詐騙集團來說是最寶貴的"},{"start":595.839,"end":614.966,"text":"因為如果可以跟你們連接在一起它的關鍵字就可以提升排名如果說到我們這個網頁上你就會看到那些就是詐騙我們都會在上面登記就是詐騙我問次長一句話所以這些網頁都要一直留在這裡嗎色情小說要繼續留嗎當中班長要繼續留嗎這些網頁上面會標示說哪些是詐騙哪些不是詐騙這些資料當然要留在我們網上上這樣民眾才會知道哪些是詐騙哪些不是詐騙你覺得不用下架喔"},{"start":625.01,"end":635.878,"text":"你覺得不用下架?那個我什麼東西要下架?什麼東西要不要下架?在什麼地方下架?什麼地方不要下架?這個是不同的事情,不能混為一談因為時間超過了還蠻久的因為這個博弈專業的議題,待會你們有空,針對這問題講清楚"},{"start":644.063,"end":670.403,"text":"是有違法疑慮的你們這樣子的說法是有不誠實疑慮的我們已經到地方法院幫你們公正這些頁面的存在也許一個小時之後你們員工機器就關機檔案就刪除了這件事情是錯的請不要用這樣的方式在這裡辯解我們已經幫你們做事情了我們一起來協作好 數位部好好去演"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":800,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（12時42分）謝謝召委，有請數發部林次長。"],["主席：林次長。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：次長好。今天我是要來糾舉一件事情，數發部自己可能被騙了，而且全國人民都被你們騙了。你們的通查網要通查詐騙集團，可能要先通查一下自己。先前你們可以看到通查網在10月14號我質詢完以後，數發部火速下架，我們本來以為這是一個負責任的態度，因為你們說結束公測下架精進嘛！在此要跟各位告知，大家都被騙了，通查網還在，幾千、幾萬筆詐騙集團的資料全部都還在網路上面，甚至我們用戶還可以登入。這種假性下架的做法到底是在騙誰？這是誰的疏失？幾千、幾萬筆詐騙集團的圖片、文字現在都還蒐羅在網路上面，在增加詐騙集團的搜尋排序嗎？在幫他們抬轎嗎？這些網站、網址理論上都不應該由數發部去備存，還要幫他們加分！這裡面有很多隱私、很多侵權、很多違法，甚至有情色小說在上面的風險，結果所有的網站內容，現在全部都被Google蒐羅，完全都還在。","今天我為什麼要接自己的電腦？因為待會還有時間，我直接表演給你看，全部都在網路上面，每一頁都可以連結。現在這些你說下架了，結果這些網站都還在，用的是哪一台主機？用的是誰的錢？你知道這個網站還在嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：委員是專家，我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：這不是專家的問題，你們10月14號的新聞稿說已經下架了。"],["林次長宜敬：是，我們所有的軟體在開發的時候一定會經過Alpha Test還有Beta Test，Alpha Test通常就是所謂的「封測」……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在到底下架了沒？"],["林次長宜敬：接下來我們會做公測，我們現在已經做完公測……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們10月14號的新聞稿說下架了，現在到底下架了沒？"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒有錯。"],["葛委員如鈞：還在嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：如果委員所謂的「下架」是在Apple App Store還有Google Play上面的話，我們已經下架了。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在所有網路資料都還在，機器為什麼不關機？為什麼網頁不移除？"],["林次長宜敬：我想委員是專家，您一定知道，在軟體界就是這樣子運作的，就是這個app在進行公測的時候，我們已經從App Store下架以後，原來的使用者還是可以繼續使用，而原來這個使用者繼續使用的話，其實我們現在看到的這些詐騙資訊，我們是會進行處理的……"],["葛委員如鈞：網頁全部都還可以連，您可能沒有搞懂我的意思，所有的網頁都還在，用戶還可以登入，不是app，我說的是網站，網頁還在。"],["林次長宜敬：因為我們打詐的工作不能暫停，我們在收到民眾的通報以後，還是會……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係。這個造成什麼問題？你們都還在幫詐騙集團的網站抬轎、加分，增加他們的搜尋排序。中國大陸的詐騙網址現在列在你們數發部產業署的網站上面，然後我們搜尋了「當沖班長」，這個詐騙集團已經被金管會驗證為詐騙集團，結果現在搜尋「當沖班長」，還會出現數發部的網頁。前一天晚上搜尋，其他真正詐騙集團網頁的排序節節升高，你們這不是在幫他們抬轎是什麼？"],["林次長宜敬：委員講的，譬如有仿冒名人的網站，名人他的網站……"],["葛委員如鈞：我還沒講到仿冒名人，我講的是詐騙集團的網站被列在你們的官網上面，這是一種抬轎的行為喔！"],["林次長宜敬：只要列在我們官網上面，我們就會通知這些網路廣告平台，包含Meta、包含LINE、包含Google，請他們把這些詐騙網站下架。"],["葛委員如鈞：你們的通查網已經下架了，但還列在你們數發部的官網啊！還有，你剛剛講的侵權、冒名的問題，這些主持人的名字都還在，還在你們的官網上，而且把他們的名字跟這些詐騙資料連結在一起，這樣有沒有侵害民眾的權益呢？","再來我們看，10月14號你們發了新聞稿，開了這些說明說下架了，結果10月18號賴清德總統的YouTube網站被檢舉，你們還幫他改耶！還幫他驗證耶！結果呢？我自己檢舉另外一個假冒我名字的，到現在還沒有下文，這是什麼差別待遇？這是什麼演算法？"],["林次長宜敬：如果說有人仿冒委員的身分，事實上這個就是我們這個網詐通報查詢網的目的，我們會儘快地要求LINE、Meta，還有Google，他們都跟我們簽了，都會提供我們特殊的通道。"],["葛委員如鈞：次長，您不要激動。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我在講的是，這整個網站，把所有的詐騙集團的資料、網址、連結、文字、圖片，現在通通在數發部的主機裡面。我沒有在講蘋果、也沒在講大公司，是你們的團隊、你們的廠商、你們的計畫。"],["林次長宜敬：當然，這些資料都在我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：我再講一件事情，我已經提了，我10月14號說不應該違法收錄這些人的圖片，你們沒有權利，結果你們的工程師下架以後持續修改就算了，他說我把圖片模糊化，我保護人權，結果程式碼打開來一看，原圖還在。他是在幹嘛！他是這麼愛這些圖片嗎？原圖還在，他只是用前端特效，這是怎麼一回事啊？"],["林次長宜敬：我們有把四百多位的公眾人物列入我們的白名單保護機制，我們都有取得他們的同意，這個不是我們片面取用他的照片……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以你有取得賴清德總統同意提供資料？你有取得朱楚文照片的使用同意？你取得吳淡如小姐的資料有取得他的同意？你有取得他們的同意，把他們的名字在數發部的官網跟「詐騙」兩個字綁在一起嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：我們是把仿冒名人的詐騙……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我說你們這樣的說法就是在騙！下架了還在！"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，我們沒有在騙，我們是在反詐騙，我們就是要防止這些詐騙……"],["葛委員如鈞：我只問下架了沒？網站不是下架了，為什麼還在？為什麼還可以登入？"],["林次長宜敬：我已經跟委員報告過，我們說的下架是從App Store跟Google Play上面下架，並沒有講系統結束……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有啊！你們網站現在是這樣寫的，「下架」、「結束公測」，不是嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是結束公測沒錯啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：你們現在打開看嘛！有結束公測，什麼功能都不能用嘛！結果呢？全部都還在啊！我現在每一頁打開，全部都是詐騙集團的資訊！都還在啊！我現在就即時連給你看，哪裡下架了？次長，你說哪裡下架了？"],["林次長宜敬：App Store下架了！"],["葛委員如鈞：你說公測結束。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：你說公測結束，下架精進。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：你說通查網會精進改善網頁設計，統一名稱不會宣傳，並下架測試網，不是嗎？這不是還在嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：我們是從App Store下架了。"],["葛委員如鈞：那網頁為什麼還在？"],["林次長宜敬：因為我們這個系統不能停止，我們每天都在面對詐騙，我們這個網路……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們這些資料紀錄在這裡，就是在幫詐騙集團搜尋排序，我告訴你。"],["林次長宜敬：委員，你言重了！"],["葛委員如鈞：我現在直接列給你看，我們搜尋「當沖班長」，底下列出來的全部都是詐騙網頁，甚至還有「當沖班長詐騙」的關鍵字。現在政府部會的網站排序都很高，數發部在第2頁這裡，你是在幫當沖班長廣告嗎？你在幫他抬轎嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：我不知道當沖班長，但是……"],["葛委員如鈞：我直接告訴你，為什麼詐騙集團要這樣做。你看，這些高中學校的網頁都被入侵了，其實公家部門的網站對詐騙集團來說是最寶貴的，如果可以跟你們連結在一起，他的關鍵字就可以提升排名。"],["林次長宜敬：但如果進入我們的網頁，就會看到那些就是詐騙，我們會在上面登記這是詐騙……"],["葛委員如鈞：我問次長一句話，這些網頁要一直留在這裡嗎？色情小說要繼續留嗎？當沖班長要繼續留嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：這些網頁上面會標示哪些是詐騙，哪些不是詐騙，這些資料當然要留在我們網站上，這樣民眾才會知道哪些是詐騙，哪些不是詐騙……"],["葛委員如鈞：你覺得這不用下架？你覺得不用下架？"],["林次長宜敬：沒有，什麼東西要下架、什麼東西不要下架、在什麼地方下架、在什麼地方不要下架，這是不同的事情，不能混為一談。"],["主席：因為時間超過還滿久的……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思。"],["主席：這是專業的議題，待會你們有空再問清楚……"],["葛委員如鈞：次長，這是有違法疑慮的，你們這樣的說法有不誠實的疑慮。我們已經到地方法院幫你們公證這些頁面的存在，也許一個小時之後，你們員工機器就關機，檔案就刪除了。這件事情是錯的，請不要用這樣的方式在這裡辯解，我們已經幫你們做事情了，我們一起來協助。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["主席：數位部好好研究一下。","接下來有請賴惠員委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156155","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156155","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b61e6f12866bc412fe0551f8101295a215966be1ac5b6e0f91eeae6d87bcf22d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:33:01 - 12:42:19","影片長度":"00:09:18","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T12:33:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T12:42:19+08:00","duration":558,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-2-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":1.7690937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.3934687500000003,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.30346875,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.09659375,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.356593750000002,"end":45.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.520343750000002,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.48159375,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.51534375,"end":32.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.30221875,"end":47.196593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.28096875,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.28909375,"end":49.305968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.01471875,"end":50.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.40284375,"end":53.541593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.984718750000006,"end":53.507843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.541593750000004,"end":53.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.69346875,"end":61.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.77659375,"end":64.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.08846875,"end":64.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.79721875,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.54346875,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.03284375,"end":70.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.41659375,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.72034375,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.77096875000001,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.12846875000001,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.30534375,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.65971875000001,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.91284375000001,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.96346875,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.03096875,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.08159375000001,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.00971875,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.90409375,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.93784375,"end":83.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.78159375,"end":83.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.81534375000001,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.40096875,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.17721875000001,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.48721875000001,"end":134.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.57909375000001,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.99159375,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.88159375000001,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.67659375,"end":142.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.46909375,"end":139.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.65034375000002,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.49721875,"end":151.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.66971875000002,"end":152.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.04096875000002,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.05096875,"end":197.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.46846875,"end":197.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.62034375000002,"end":213.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.41534375,"end":234.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.66096875000002,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.26346875000002,"end":242.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.01409375000003,"end":271.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.56659375000004,"end":282.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.09221875000003,"end":293.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.58409375,"end":296.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.86221875,"end":309.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.26534375,"end":313.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.60221875,"end":326.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.30471875,"end":331.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.04659375,"end":344.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.55096875000004,"end":348.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.66846875000005,"end":350.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.59221875000003,"end":351.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.61284375,"end":353.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.96721875000003,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.33284375000005,"end":363.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.36659375000005,"end":364.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.14284375,"end":364.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.68284375,"end":364.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.78409375,"end":364.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.86846875000003,"end":365.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.22284375000004,"end":365.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.97346875000005,"end":368.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.51346875,"end":368.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.86784375,"end":374.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.65659375,"end":372.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.04846875000004,"end":374.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.43659375000004,"end":394.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.34346875,"end":377.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.24909375000004,"end":386.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.20659375,"end":388.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.57721875000004,"end":393.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.97346875000005,"end":400.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.37346875000003,"end":400.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.69409375000004,"end":429.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.49909375000004,"end":406.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.73534375,"end":406.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.20846875,"end":431.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.98034375000003,"end":440.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.35034375000004,"end":440.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.87346875000003,"end":442.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.88159375000004,"end":464.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.61659375000005,"end":468.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.92409375000005,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.25721875000005,"end":502.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.96159375,"end":471.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.73284375000003,"end":478.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.58534375000005,"end":505.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":503.58096875,"end":503.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":503.88471875000005,"end":503.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.37409375000004,"end":505.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.11659375000005,"end":505.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.20096875,"end":505.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.63971875000004,"end":505.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.94346875,"end":519.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.0053437500001,"end":534.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":519.57846875,"end":519.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":519.88221875,"end":520.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.0928437499999,"end":522.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.14346875,"end":522.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.8859687500001,"end":522.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.3484687499999,"end":536.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.66034375,"end":535.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.5378437500001,"end":554.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.0034687500001,"end":554.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.4253437500001,"end":554.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":556.31534375,"end":557.6147187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.27,"end":1.011,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳部長好陳部長"},{"start":10.66,"end":37.075,"text":"好部長好部長我們今天討論這個大型客運的短缺駕駛短缺的部分其實這是各行各業都有這個缺工的問題那其中我有看到你在今天的報告第三頁裡面已經有考慮要引進外籍的人力納入橋外生的這個呃擔任這些相關的工作嘛齁但是我們現在假設如果說以橋外生來講的話他有小客車駕照"},{"start":38.032,"end":64.147,"text":"那他要能夠獲得不管是大貨車駕照或者職業大貨車或是職業大客車駕照的話他都至少還要再幾年兩到三年一到兩年不等訓練的時間啊跟委員報告那個小型車要有一年到這個大貨車然後大貨車再一年到這個大客車但是如果說是小型車也有一個管道上駕訓班一年可以直升這個大客車"},{"start":64.907,"end":88.624,"text":"我們這個規定是不會因為說喬拜生而修正嘛 對不對不會不會好 那所以說 標準都要一樣即便是這樣子的話 那這樣子我們最晚 最快你也要一年之後 而且你現在勞動部其實還沒有同意 對不對他們已經在進行法制的過程但是什麼時候可以這個要 年底今年年底就可能有望通過或解套 是不是"},{"start":90.332,"end":111.55,"text":"來補充說明一下因為我覺得兩個部分一個是現在缺工的狀況那之前也有人提過說有沒有可能用外籍的駕駛那當然民眾會有疑慮可是你們現在也已經研議並且也認為是說這安全性上來講是沒有問題的報告委員今年8月勞動部有做討論那9月份在國發會那邊也整體會有一些共識"},{"start":112.31,"end":134.228,"text":"未來針對中階人力我們是鎖定在橋外生而不是一般的外籍人士因為橋外生我知道你報告裡面寫得很清楚有讀書有那個他會比較融入本地的生活未來這部分我們在年底以前會把相關的法令建制修好修好之後就可以開始處理要處理之後就是剛才委員所"},{"start":135.008,"end":151.96,"text":"關切的畢竟他在國內從事職業駕駛他要有職業駕照所以說最少即便是今年年底都很順利的狀況今年年底但是他也要明年年底才有可能取得大客車或大貨車的駕照對不對最快"},{"start":152.62,"end":176.722,"text":"那這樣相對來講我們至少還有一年多的時間而且你開放了橋外生橋外生到底有多少人願意投入變成駕駛其實還不確定因為如同我們今天的報告來講就說我們現在的駕駛不管是公路客運其實有缺員差不多兩千位兩千多位而遊覽車客運也是兩千五百到三千大貨車也有缺員的狀況但是實際上我們本國人"},{"start":177.142,"end":177.722,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":196.409,"end":212.849,"text":"駕駛的狀況很嚴重但是我們也想說因為國道客運跟一般客運比較不同的地方在於是國道客運他就一定要每個人一個座位他不能有站位那也變成是一台客運尤其本期最近我們林口地區很多人的這個反應是無障礙的巴士"},{"start":213.55,"end":241.653,"text":"他一個低體盤的公車座位只有22個所以他要變成是說他22個坐滿之後就只能下一班但是缺員的狀況很嚴重駕駛員少有車發不出來那尤其在通勤時間就會造成說塞...就會造成是說他塞在那邊沒有辦法等很多班才能找得了是 沒有錯那部長過去到現在也有人提過要有沒有可能開放雙層巴士的空間我知道在之前"},{"start":243.686,"end":270.927,"text":"2023年的時候交通部有討論到時候否決當時否決的理由是認為說考量安全沒有開放不討論開放這個是交通部路政司的專委那時我也認為沒有錯如果說真的安全的話我們一定要考慮安全但是再拉過回頭來我們再去看其他世界各國確實也有些國家他是有開放雙程巴士上國道或是相關的快速道路的"},{"start":271.627,"end":293.76,"text":"那如果說其他國家有這樣的狀況那我們再反思我們現在講有沒有可能以事辦或者是限定路程的一個方式來做雙層巴士的一個開放因為這個是在今年3月我特別查了一下資料很多人在呼籲桃園在2023年去年就呼籲中央要開放雙層巴士上國道"},{"start":294.66,"end":312.794,"text":"今年2024年張善政市長他還特別講到說希望中央開放外籍司機跟雙層巴士上國道那我今天已經看到你們已經嚴議開放外籍司機等於是喬外申已經開放這部分了那另外一個部分雙層巴士"},{"start":313.675,"end":329.887,"text":"我覺得如果說我們怕安全的問題能不能雙層巴士設定時速他可能最高不能超過國道的一個標準比如說國道就是100公里他最高再怎麼踩他就是踩不過100公里那第二雙層巴士能不能在通勤時間能夠開放"},{"start":332.133,"end":351.577,"text":"比如說早上6點到9點這段時間是允許國道客運他們用雙乘巴士讓我們這些要通勤的朋友能夠有多的這個運量回來的時候也如此那第三我覺得更重要的是因為他是協助無障礙空間的駕駛他等於是多一倍嘛"},{"start":353.646,"end":373.734,"text":"部長有沒有這樣的可能性委員我想你的這個想法很好就是說在缺工的狀況底下在尖峰的時段如果可以一台車載運量更高的話多一倍的人力嘛對當然是可以因為現在缺工駕駛員少那這也是不爭的事實而且很多人是離開了這個行業之後他不願意再回來"},{"start":375.014,"end":399.744,"text":"離開的多進來的少對不對所以這個是個解決的好的方案不過我想我們內部先來討論一下安全性的部分尤其是國道因為國道的對於安全性的要求相對高當然剛剛有提出幾個前提或許可以做一些限制如果安全性符合的狀況底下或許這是可以考慮的方向或者是短程的範圍譬如說假設桃園到雙北地區就是以區域性來講"},{"start":400.464,"end":419.441,"text":"因為北北基桃是一個共同生活圈也許北北基桃內的國道客運可以用雙層巴士中張頭可能中張頭可以那我就不存在一台雙層巴士從台北開到高雄是沒有這樣的一個選項但是至少北北基桃可能可以試辦雙層巴士在北北基桃範圍內中張頭、雲嘉南、高高屏"},{"start":423.044,"end":439.066,"text":"用生活圈的概念但是把國道串聯那還有更重要其實如果說真的能夠推動的話就減少一台公車嘛我兩台變一台嘛我的空間釋出來嘛空間可能會更多的一個運用嘛那兩位駕駛變一位駕駛嘛"},{"start":440.948,"end":464.222,"text":"能不能這樣子演繹部長我想這一個部分就是相對專業而且也是苦民所苦那也是來了解大家心聲是不是召集一下一個月內開個會大家來討論一下吧然後最重要的是因為國外也有這樣的一個案例能不能找國外的經驗一起來談安全最優先考量但是以安全為前提的情況下我們用事辦的方式有沒有這個可能"},{"start":464.993,"end":480.192,"text":"我是建議是不是給我們一個月的時間一個月沒有問題我們有提到說國外有這樣的情況但是據我們所了解的部分我們看國外雙重巴士大概就是跟臺北、高雄、台南 觀光巴士嘛觀光巴士就是在平面路段的一個部分"},{"start":480.652,"end":505.271,"text":"那真的就我們目前這邊是比較少看就是說在上高速公路因為高速公路的速限最起碼就是這一個60以上所以這些相關的資訊我們先這一個蒐集一下那第二個部分的話我也跟委員報告一下即使是double take的這一個雙程巴士的話它的容量絕對不是這個單程的兩倍但一定是比一台巴士人多嘛對所以多一點但是"},{"start":506.512,"end":522.701,"text":"這裡面的一個就是說相關的一個重點的一個部分的話大概就是兩個課題一個是重心的高度跟速度上面的部分這個我都理解所以我才會講是說是不是速限有一定的範圍如果說好做可能你過去就不會否決嘛"},{"start":522.961,"end":548.275,"text":"但我現在講的是說因為現在面臨的狀況還有就是現在人口成長越來越多生活圈大大的需求所以我才會考慮說是不是用事辦的方式來討論好不好我們來收集足夠的資訊再來跟委員報告好再麻煩一個月有相關的資料那我們要繼續追這件事情因為這關心到我相信這招我一定心有戚戚焉嘛桃園中壢的鄉親好朋友也會有雙北的需求啊"},{"start":548.976,"end":554.504,"text":"這其實大家都有這樣的需求啦甚至等下中章投說不定也都有需要嘛好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時33分）謝謝主席，麻煩請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們今天討論大型客運駕駛短缺的部分，其實各行各業都有缺工的問題，其中我看到你在今天的報告第3頁裡面已經有考慮要引進外籍人力，納入僑外生擔任相關的工作。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我們現在假設，如果以僑外生來講的話，他有小客車駕照，那他要能夠獲得不管是職業大貨車或是職業大客車駕照至少還要再幾年？兩到三年？一到兩年不等？"],["陳部長世凱：訓練的時間？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，小型車要有一年到大貨車，然後大貨車再一年到大客車，但如果是小型車也有一個管道，上駕訓班一年可以直升大客車。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們這個規定不會因為僑外生而修正，對不對？"],["林司長福山：不會、不會。"],["陳部長世凱：標準都要一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以即便是這樣，那我們最晚、最快也要一年之後，而且現在勞動部其實還沒有同意，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：他們已經在進行法制的過程。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是什麼時候可以？"],["陳部長世凱：這個要問……年底。"],["洪委員孟楷：今年年底就可能有望通過或解套，是不是？請補充說明一下。我覺得有兩個部分，一個是現在缺工的狀況，之前也有人提過有沒有可能用外籍的駕駛，當然民眾會有疑慮，可是你們現在也已經研議，並且也認為安全性上來講是沒有問題的。"],["陳次長明仁：報告委員，今年8月勞動部有做討論，9月份在國發會那邊也整理各部會有一些共識，未來針對中階人力，我們是鎖定在僑外生，而不是一般的外籍人士……"],["洪委員孟楷：是僑外生，我知道，你們的報告裡面寫得很清楚。"],["陳次長明仁：因為僑外生在本地有工作、有讀書等等，他會比較融入本地的生活，未來這部分我們在年底以前會把相關的法令修好，修好之後就可以開始處理，那處理之後就是剛才委員所關切的，畢竟他在國內從事職業駕駛要有職業駕照，這部分我們會跟相關部會……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以說最少，即便是今年年底都很順利的狀況，那也要明年年底才有可能取得大客車或大貨車的駕照，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：最快。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，相對來講，我們至少還有一年多的時間，而且你開放了僑外生，僑外生到底有多少人願意投入來變成駕駛，其實也還不確定，因為如同我們今天的報告來講，我們現在的駕駛不管是公路客運，其實缺員差不多兩千位、兩千多位，而遊覽車客運也是2,500到3,000，大貨車也有缺員的狀況，但是實際上，我們本國人拿大貨車或大客車駕照的人還是多，所以你到底願不願意投入？其實這方方面面問題很多啦，但另外一個部分，因為之前本席看到桃園市市長張善政也有提過，他說國道客運上來講，其實缺駕駛的狀況很嚴重，但是我們也知道因為國道客運跟一般客運比較不同的地方在於，國道客運一定要每個人一個座位，不能有站位，那也變成是一台客運……尤其最近我們林口地區很多人的反映是無障礙的巴士，一個低底盤的公車座位只有22個，所以變成22個座位坐滿之後就只能搭下一班，但是缺員的狀況很嚴重，駕駛員少，有車發不出來，尤其在通勤時間就會造成他塞在那邊，沒有辦法……"],["陳部長世凱：等很多班才能上得了車。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯。部長，過去到現在也有人提過，有沒有可能開放雙層巴士的空間？我知道之前在2023年的時候交通部有討論，但被否決了，當時否決的理由是考量安全、不討論開放，這個是交通部路政司的專委說的。那時我也認為沒有錯，如果真的安全的話，我們一定要考量安全，但是回過頭來我們再去看其他世界各國，確實也有些國家是有開放雙層巴士上國道或是相關的快速道路，如果其他國家有這樣的狀況，那我們再反思，我們現在有沒有可能以試辦或者是限定路程的方式來做雙層巴士的開放？因為這個是在今年3月，我特別查了一下資料，很多人在呼籲，桃園在去（2023）年就呼籲中央要開放雙層巴士上國道，今（2024）年張善政市長還特別講到，希望中央開放外籍司機跟雙層巴士上國道，我今天看到你們已經研議開放外籍司機，等於是僑外生，已經開放這部分了，那另外一個部分──雙層巴士，我覺得如果我們擔心安全的問題，能不能將雙層巴士設定時速？它可能最高不能超過國道的一個標準，比如說國道就是100公里，他最高再怎麼踩就是踩不過100公里。","第二，雙層巴士能不能在通勤時間開放？比如說早上6點到9點這段時間是允許國道客運用雙層巴士，讓我們這些通勤的朋友能夠有多的運量，回來的時候也如此。","第三，我覺得更重要的是，因為它是協助無障礙空間的駕駛，它等於是多一倍嘛。部長，有沒有這樣的可能性？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我想你的這個想法很好，就是說在缺工的狀況底下，在尖峰時段，如果可以一台車載運量更高的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：多一倍的人力嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：對，當然是可以紓解……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為現在缺工，駕駛員少，這也是不爭的事實。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個可以紓解……"],["洪委員孟楷：而且很多人是離開這個行業之後，他不願意再回來，離開的多，進來的少，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。所以這是個解決的好的方案，不過，我想我們內部先來討論一下安全性的部分，尤其是國道，因為國道對於安全性的要求相對高。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然。"],["陳部長世凱：您剛剛有提出幾個前提，或許可以做一些限制，如果安全性符合的狀況底下，或許這是可以考慮的方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：或者是短程的範圍，譬如假設桃園到雙北地區，就是以區域性來講，因為北北基桃是一個共同生活圈，也許北北基桃內的國道客運可以用雙層巴士，而中彰投，可能中彰投可以，但就不存在一台雙層巴士從臺北開到高雄，是沒有這樣的一個選項，但是至少北北基桃可能可以試辦雙層巴士在北北基桃範圍內，或中彰投、雲嘉南、高高屏，用生活圈的概念，但是把國道串聯，還有更重要的是，其實如果真的能夠推動就減少一台公車嘛，兩台變一台，我的空間釋出來，空間可能會更多的運用，那兩位駕駛變一位駕駛，能不能這樣研議？部長，我想這個部分就是相對專業，而且是苦民所苦，也是來了解大家的心聲，你們是不是召集一下，一個月內開個會，大家來討論一下，最重要的是，因為國外也有這樣的一個案例，能不能找國外的經驗一起來談？安全為最優先考量，但是以安全為前提的情況下，我們用試辦的方式，有沒有這個可能？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，我建議是不是給我們一個月的時間？"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月，沒有問題。"],["林司長福山：剛剛委員有提到國外有這樣的情況，但是就我們所了解的部分，我們看國外雙層巴士大概就是跟臺北、高雄、臺南……"],["洪委員孟楷：觀光巴士嘛。"],["林司長福山：觀光巴士，都是在平面路段的部分，目前真的比較少是上高速公路，因為高速公路的速限最起碼就是60以上，所以這些相關的資訊我們先蒐集一下；第二個部分，我也跟委員報告一下，即使是雙層巴士（double-decker）的話，它的容量絕對不是單純的2倍。"],["洪委員孟楷：但一定是比一台巴士人多嘛。"],["林司長福山：對，多一點，但是這裡面相關的重點大概就是兩個課題，一個是重心的高度跟速度上面……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個我都理解，所以我才會講是不是速限有一定的範圍……"],["林司長福山：我們先來蒐集一下相關資訊……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說好做，可能你過去就不會否決嘛。"],["林司長福山：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但我現在講的是說，因為現在面臨的狀況還有就是現在人口成長越來越多，生活圈大家的需求，所以我才會考慮是不是用試辦的方式來討論。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來蒐集足夠的資訊再跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，再麻煩。1個月有相關的資料，我們要繼續追這件事情。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：我相信這個召委一定是心有戚戚焉嘛！桃園、中壢的鄉親、好朋友也會有去雙北的需求啊！其實大家都有這樣的需求啦！甚至等一下中彰投說不定也都有需要嘛！好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪委員。","接下來有請葛如鈞委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":366,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-7","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","許智傑","廖先翔","徐富癸","邱若華","陳雪生","陳素月","蔡其昌","林月琴","李坤城","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃健豪","羅廷瑋","羅智強","王鴻薇","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","游顥","陳冠廷"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1139001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、公平交易委員會主任委員李鎂、數位發展部次長、勞動部次長、衛\n生福利部、經濟部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及行政院消費者保護處就「外送平台之整併、收\n費指引、個資保護、產業發展、勞工權益及食品物流安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、\n邀請交通部公路局局長就「公路大型客貨運駕駛短缺之因應措施暨現行遊覽車評鑑制度之檢討與\n精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139001_00005"}}},{"id":"156110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bf8a8939c1c7a59a828079f68b7ad4a88ce0a1e5c1d8db79606b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:35:52 - 11:40:36","影片長度":"00:04:44","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:35:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:40:36+08:00","duration":284,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-5"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.24096875,"end":7.810343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.24909375,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.47221875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.489093750000002,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.24846875,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.26534375,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":35.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.00846875,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.45659375,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.54784375000001,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.48409375,"end":102.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.55159375000001,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.32284375,"end":104.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.58409375000001,"end":106.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.84971875000001,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.86659375,"end":107.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.01846875000001,"end":107.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.05221875000001,"end":107.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.06909375000001,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.13659375,"end":107.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.15346875,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.53659375000001,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.53159375000001,"end":165.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.30034375000002,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.32784375,"end":213.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.88784375,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.03784375,"end":270.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.46971875,"end":277.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.89534375,"end":278.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.19846875,"end":282.92346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":7.296,"text":"4分鐘好謝謝趙委員我們請院長有請蕭院長"},{"start":11.882,"end":34.602,"text":"陳院長 院長好 院長在2018年的時候行政院長賴清德有對外公開說就是說故宮為了要落實維護國寶的安全之外也要推廣全民的藝術教育那今天的報告第6頁有提到說這個友善共榮文化平權透過執行新故宮計畫打造更親民的全民博物館那我針對"},{"start":36.049,"end":39.351,"text":"總共執行到現在有8000多個師生參與,含41個偏鄉學校。院長今年這個數字有沒有辦法突破一萬五千人?"},{"start":57.503,"end":81.799,"text":"我為什麼講這些事情是因為你們現在接待了41所偏商學校來參加其實這個數字有點太少了根據教育部11年的這個學年度的偏遠地區國中小學統計資料裡面光是偏遠地區的中小學就有1138家我們嘉義縣就有78間故宮南院就在嘉義縣這代表說落實這個專案計畫連我們嘉義在地的偏鄉都沒有完全照顧到"},{"start":82.499,"end":106.434,"text":"這個部分我很會懷疑說執行這個平權的這個決心跟意志啊所以院長可不可以至少在我們嘉義縣在故宮南院就在我們嘉義有沒有辦法提升我們這個偏鄉的參與我們來努力還是有一個數字啦就是你自己覺得可以怎麼樣提升大概你們的目標是怎麼樣目標目標的話南院"},{"start":112.58,"end":135.337,"text":"今年南苑說今年大概會有20所學校但還是很少好沒關係我們慢慢來一步一步來今年比去年好明年比今年好那再來就是說打造全民博物館我想另外一個就是全民的這個藝術的教育那其實故宮南苑它的展館是非常的龐大的那其實有一些可以閒置的空間可以活化我是建議說可以支持"},{"start":135.737,"end":165.377,"text":"台灣甚至是我們嘉義至少要回饋嘉義縣本土的藝術我們這邊有很多藝術家包含在這個你說嘉義鐵孩子竹崎的這個中埔的蘭蘭這些都是本土的重要的藝術那對他們來講對我們嘉義縣的藝術家來講如果有機會在故宮南院的閒置空間能夠作為一些他們把他們的表演物品能夠去展現的話對於他們的肯定對於嘉義縣的肯定也是很高有沒有可能規劃相關的可能性"},{"start":166.357,"end":191.775,"text":"相關的空間基本上來講因為故宮不管南院北院有它的展覽的屬性跟歷史定位如果在一個開放空間的話基本上來講的話這個我們來努力如果你們擔心說跟主軸不太符合的話那你們還是可以做審查嘛可以提出一個機制讓在地的藝術家有機會配合你看最近是"},{"start":192.295,"end":213.814,"text":"﹗"},{"start":214.754,"end":220.216,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝院長那最後就是故宮南院的規劃問題啊現在故宮南院的總面積是70公頃包含博物區大概是20公頃園區50公頃那"},{"start":235.44,"end":257.103,"text":"總地板是38333平方公尺就算加上國保文物修復展示館22641平方公尺也才6萬多平方公尺只佔博物館區的20公頃的小部分院長北部的院區大約是21公頃但是總樓地板面積就有58000看看北院就會知道說南院的非常空曠這是不合理的規劃所以"},{"start":258.484,"end":276.898,"text":"我還是希望院長能夠思考一下故宮南院未來整個園區的規劃增加更多的展場跟典藏空間讓故宮南院可以成為中南部的真正意義的大型博物館好不好OK我們努力因為這會牽涉到一個參觀的元素的問題謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢那今天院長先請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時35分）謝謝召委，請院長。"],["主席：有請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長好。院長，2018年的時候，行政院長賴清德有對外公開說，故宮除了要維護國寶的安全外，也要推廣全民的藝術教育。今天報告的第6頁有提到友善共榮、文化平權，透過執行新故宮計畫達到更親民的全民博物館。針對「文化平權」這4個字，我非常重視，在文化平權裡面，南部院區所辦理的百萬學子悠遊博物館專案計畫執行到現在，總共有八千多個師生參與，含41個偏鄉學校。院長，今年這個數字有沒有辦法突破1萬5,000人？","為什麼我要講這件事情？因為你們現在接待的這41所偏鄉學校，其實這個數字有點太少了。根據教育部111學年度偏遠地區國中小學的統計資料，光是偏遠地區的中小學就有1,138家，我們嘉義縣就有78間，故宮南院就在嘉義縣，這代表這個專案計畫的落實連我們在地嘉義縣的偏鄉都無法完全照顧到，我很懷疑這部分執行平權的決心和意志。所以院長，因為故宮南院就在我們嘉義縣，有沒有辦法提升我們偏鄉的參與？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們來努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：還是要有一個數字，就是你自己覺得可以怎麼樣來提升？你們大概的目標是怎樣？"],["蕭院長宗煌：南院說今年大概會有20所學校，當然，還是很少。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，沒關係，我們慢慢來，一步一步來，今年比去年好、明年比今年好。再來，打造全民博物館，我想另外一個就是全民的藝術教育，其實故宮南院的展館非常地龐大，有些閒置的空間其實可以活化，我是建議可以支持臺灣、甚至是嘉義，至少要回饋嘉義縣本土的藝術，我們這邊有很多的藝術家，包含嘉義鐵孩子、竹崎、中埔的藍染，這些都是本土重要的藝術，對他們來講、對我們嘉義縣的藝術家來講，如果有機會能夠在故宮南院的閒置空間展現他們的表演物品的話，對於他們和嘉義縣都是很高的肯定，有沒有可能規劃？相關的可能性和空間？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上，故宮不管是南院或北院，有其展覽的屬性和歷史定位，如果在開放的空間的話，基本上，這個我們來努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果你們擔心跟主軸不太符合的話，你們還是可以審查、提出一個機制，讓在地的藝術家有機會配合。像最近展出的「琉球王國文物展」，如果我們臺灣有一些本土藝術是跟琉球王國相近的，就可以讓他們有展示的機會，既配合主軸，也配合主題和不同時間的展覽，我認為這些都是可行的，這部分可不可以請院長承諾一下，至少規劃一下，可不可以？"],["蕭院長宗煌：相關的展覽如果有可能融入，我們會融入在展覽裡。另外，推廣教育活動或是推廣教育的展示這部分，我們來研究。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝！謝謝院長。最後是故宮南院的規劃問題，現在故宮南院的總面積是70公頃，包含博物區20公頃、園區50公頃，總地板面積是3萬8,333平方公尺，就算加上國寶文物修復展示館2萬2,641平方公尺，也才六萬多平方公尺，只占博物館區20公頃的小部分。院長，北部的院區大約是21公頃，但是總樓地板面積就有5萬8,000平方公尺，看看北院，你就會知道南院非常地空曠，這是不合理的規劃，所以我還是希望院長能夠思考一下故宮南院未來整個院區的規劃，希望可以增加更多的展場跟典藏空間，讓故宮南院可以成為中南部真正有意義的大型博物館，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：OK，我們努力，因為這個會牽涉到參觀人數的問題。"],["主席：請院長會後再給委員詳細的報告，好不好？"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。謝謝召委，謝謝院長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢。院長先請回。","今天登記質詢的委員都已發言完畢，另有吳春城委員提出書面質詢。有關今天的會議作成如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄，並登刊公報，對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張雅琳","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳冠廷","吳春城"],"page_start":383,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00006"}}},{"id":"156109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bbef9092216591679982770301154c67dce0a1e5c1d8db7968c182ccf94525d475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:27:36 - 11:38:20","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:27:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:38:20+08:00","duration":644,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.704718750000001,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.26096875,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.41284375,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.037218750000001,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.872218750000002,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.95659375,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.49221875,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.43221875,"end":26.575343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.03096875,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.688468750000002,"end":45.846593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.20096875,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.63096875,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.29284375,"end":60.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.595343750000005,"end":62.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.13096875,"end":62.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.447218750000005,"end":65.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.77159375000001,"end":68.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.50534375000001,"end":70.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.50534375000001,"end":71.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":80.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.75721875,"end":80.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.71034375,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.27846875,"end":103.20471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.82534375,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.46221875,"end":103.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.79534375,"end":105.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.22534375000001,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.10221875,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.36346875000001,"end":116.26596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.89034375000001,"end":117.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.38784375,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.92784375000001,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.87659375000001,"end":126.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.34034375,"end":126.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.62721875000001,"end":135.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.69471875,"end":127.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.84159375000002,"end":133.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.22909375,"end":139.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.68846875,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.91971875000002,"end":145.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.72971875000002,"end":155.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.29784375,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.07409375,"end":157.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.32284375,"end":160.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.84596875,"end":158.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.93846875,"end":162.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.30534375000002,"end":163.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.65534375000001,"end":185.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.35221875000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.80784375000002,"end":186.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.15284375000002,"end":202.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.86909375000002,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.90221875,"end":213.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.81346875000003,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.75284375,"end":218.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.00534375,"end":221.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.90346875,"end":222.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.92034375,"end":221.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.03846875000002,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.46846875000003,"end":226.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.70034375,"end":226.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.67909375000002,"end":233.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.68221875,"end":244.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.89596875,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.85346875000002,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.72659375,"end":247.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.70409375000003,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.23096875000005,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.48784375,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.19221875,"end":265.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.96409375,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.27159375,"end":269.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.30534375,"end":270.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.38971875000004,"end":269.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.77784375000005,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.34721875,"end":271.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.54721875,"end":288.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.98159375,"end":291.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.31471875,"end":290.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.52971875000003,"end":292.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.36909375,"end":295.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.84971875,"end":319.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.71096875,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.85909375,"end":361.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.57346875,"end":395.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.13346875,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.64346875,"end":402.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.27596875,"end":403.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.31784375,"end":412.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.54034375000003,"end":417.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.95721875000004,"end":428.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.55034375,"end":433.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.92534375,"end":437.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.07221875000005,"end":440.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.07596875,"end":443.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.69596875,"end":486.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.57096875,"end":498.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.69971875000005,"end":506.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.01909375,"end":508.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.94721875000005,"end":525.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.97846875,"end":532.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.94034375,"end":526.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.12909375,"end":539.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.9128437500001,"end":544.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.02596875,"end":546.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.9878437500001,"end":549.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.28721875,"end":547.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.86096875,"end":560.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.3147187500001,"end":571.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.17784375,"end":626.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.02159375,"end":631.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.60346875,"end":632.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.42159375,"end":633.8897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.78409375,"end":635.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.6615937500001,"end":639.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.72846875,"end":639.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.7453437500001,"end":639.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.81284375,"end":639.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.96471875,"end":642.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.05284375,"end":643.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.81221875,"end":644.0990937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.935,"end":12.82,"text":"謝謝主席,本席想邀請主委跟勞動部一起"},{"start":25.865,"end":51.572,"text":"好謝謝主委我們看到我們在105年執行我們我國少子化的這個對策計畫到現在從最起初的105年的200億到我們看到你114年的預算是1177億但是呢你錢越多你的生育率不僅是逐年下降"},{"start":52.392,"end":68.385,"text":"而且在CIA所公布五月份他所公布美國中情局他公布的2024年全球生育率的預測當中嚇一跳我們竟然是世界最後一名你看到這個世界最後一名"},{"start":69.554,"end":70.974,"text":"你的心理作何感想?"},{"start":90.539,"end":115.946,"text":"都是因為不育證經過補助而生下來的所以錢花的還是有那包括我們0到2歲0到6歲國家一起養其實都讓年輕人感覺到他有釋壓的情形這個是我們從200億到明年度你編列的1177億你的過程努力但是你的答案是世界最危險的怎麼辦"},{"start":119.417,"end":120.318,"text":"主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":136.278,"end":158.873,"text":"因為錢不斷地在增加那你現在的方式有沒有調整的空間怎麼樣去鼓勵請做說明我們其實10月1號陳時中政委召集的各部會也包括國安會我們探討的這件事那10月17號在國家發展委員會有沒有方案出來你也談到這些事情有沒有方案你從200億到明年度預估將近1200億有沒有方案"},{"start":164.216,"end":182.923,"text":"方案是有一部分已經在今年的預算裡面提出來就是一些補助的增加包括我們最近也會修法包括一些法令的鬆綁但是我們希望有更大的改變所以我們在那個會議裡面我們希望三個月後我們在會議裡面大家再來探討一次"},{"start":185.664,"end":201.941,"text":"從什麼時候的三個月本席希望聽到方案因為我們即將要審預算要知道這筆預算能不能花在有效的效能所以這一個提問本席請問你們的整體方案什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":203.212,"end":205.254,"text":"多久時間?實施中所以你的答案是全世界最後一名所以本期具體建議"},{"start":224.514,"end":244.963,"text":"你去盤點,主委你去盤點你現在最後一年你的答案也是世界最後一名所以趁著還有機會你到底你的預算在重議的時候你的預算、你的方案要怎麼樣去精進你三個月內給本席好不好我三個月給你但是我也跟您報告"},{"start":248.184,"end":256.716,"text":"我們有探討很多事情其實不是其實這個不歸我的責任但是我主動找了院長探討我們也提了幾個方案出來那這裡面需要到500億到1000億左右的預算你是我們國發會的主委"},{"start":262.592,"end":284.19,"text":"拿出你的gas去提出方案預算怎麼分配這是我們要看到的好不好三個月內將你的方案給本席所以我們實質討論勞動部在這裡全台有90%是屬於中小企業那麼彈性工時的部分勞動部你們現在的進度怎麼樣調評師嗎"},{"start":289.051,"end":318.913,"text":"是不是請調評司說明?勞動部你們現在的作為方向是怎麼樣呢?報告委員其實我們現在依照勞動基準法跟我們的性別平等工作法我們現在在法令裡面就有一些可以實施彈性工作時間的一些措施跟空間那不管是彈性工時又或者是可以調整上下班又或者是有一些彈性的請假這些在勞動法規裡面都允許可以去做一些安排"},{"start":318.933,"end":336.169,"text":"與亞鄰國家之留才但是落實沒有辦法落實所以為什麼請國發會主委以及你同步大家互相橫向去聯繫因為我再次強調90%都是屬於中小企業那麼同時我們要顧了國家的產業"},{"start":337.31,"end":361.663,"text":"那當然最重要現在最傷腦筋的全世界生育率最後一名這個問題一年度要花一千多億在這樣的情況之下我們的橫向聯繫到底要怎麼樣去精進這是本席在跟你討論的這個議案所以我們也希望因為一方面要國家發展二方面不敢得罪雇主然後呢"},{"start":362.643,"end":373.847,"text":"又要趕快要讓他們可以有彈性共識這個功課是很要有智慧的所以我把這個功課拋出去請國發會跟勞動部你們好好去研討要怎麼樣能夠去落實所以我拋出一個議題國發會主委你是不是可以如果沒有領頭羊不可能"},{"start":384.691,"end":389.214,"text":"你是不是可以請我們的政府單位跟國營企業來當領頭羊來做事行的彈性工時可行性"},{"start":397.539,"end":417.094,"text":"這我會跟相關國營事業的組織單位我們會來討論看看再跟你報告你國家帶著走人家就願意你國家自己都不做那當然就到目前為止你到最後這個1200億花完了還是全世界最後一名"},{"start":418.255,"end":423.958,"text":"這個是我們不願意看到的所以是不是我想了一直想我們是不是由我們的國營事業跟我們的行政政府部門率頭來示範嘛好不好我來跟那個向經濟部這些單位來討論對這樣就對了那你多久時間可以告訴我可跟不可你們率先來示範嘛"},{"start":441.244,"end":441.725,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":458.277,"end":469.26,"text":"這個70年你慢了三個月公布但是總是公布了那你告訴我們少子化跟高齡化的現象呢你告訴我們說預估2070年我國總人口將比2024年減少844萬人換句話說到了2070年我們從2300萬人會降到1500萬人所以主委在這樣子的數字告訴我們你要怎麼樣朝向"},{"start":486.724,"end":504.729,"text":"少子化、勞動力、經濟產業、財政受資尤其是我們的醫療、照務這些面向做一個橫向整體性的一個研討這個是務必要做的我已經看到2070年我們的人口剩下1500萬人這怎麼辦呢"},{"start":508.329,"end":532.586,"text":"請做說明這個部分我們已經整理了各種的影響因素以後我們在陳政委的會議裡面有特別提出來給各部會希望他們針對這些議題可能的傷害跟這個影響進行一定傷害沒有人什麼都不用講了所以請教主委你們在座你的KPI指數什麼時間點可以提出你們的方案"},{"start":533.386,"end":549.074,"text":"這個我我這樣子好不好我還是得我得跟陳正偉去討論啊我跟陳正偉討論之後再跟你回報你初步三個月去提出一個你們的草案方案我們繼續討論好不好這個我還是要要爭得陳正偉的同意啊所以你趕快去討論好不好這個很重要到了2070年我們剩下1500萬人這很緊張欸這怎麼辦最後一分鐘齁來主委"},{"start":560.619,"end":574.263,"text":"7月底你外國專業人才有效的已經達到56000多人特定專業人才你達到15000多換句話說含就業金卡的部分是10720人次所以換句話說是71808人但是我們有了這個"},{"start":581.106,"end":596.659,"text":"這個2017年的時候有外國人才專法實施所以你的人數到目前有增加但是我們看到目前的產業必須要加入AI的這些我們必須要跟世界接軌所以我要求你我要求你你將你將跨部會去盤點我們產業人才的缺口你去延攬國際的人才因為"},{"start":605.407,"end":630.785,"text":"近鄰觀光加注一個項目近鄰人才這是勢在必行所以如果依照你目前的步驟是沒有辦法吻合我們所必要國家發展所必要的這些人才以及跟世界接軌你是不是我把這個功課給你你去研討把那個方案告訴我們好不好好啊沒問題啊我們其實有資料啦那我把這個資料整理給你嘛來多久時間可以給本席"},{"start":634.964,"end":635.465,"text":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時27分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請主委跟勞動部一起。","主委，我們自105年執行我國少子化的對策計畫到現在，從最起初105年的200億，到我們看到你114年的預算是1,177億，但是錢越多，生育率不僅逐年下降，而且在美國中情局（CIA）5月份所公布的2024年全球生育率預測當中，嚇一跳，我們竟然是世界最後一名，你看到這個世界最後一名，你的心裡做何感想？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們認為這件事情會是滿嚴重的一件事啦！但是我也跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很嚴重，已經是世界最後一名。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我也跟委員報告，我們光去年補助不孕症所生育出來的小孩，去年就有1萬多人，都是因為不孕症經過補助而生下來的，所以錢花的還是有成效，包括我們0到6歲國家一起養，其實都讓年輕人感覺到他有釋壓的情形。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，我們從200億到明年度你編列的1,177億，你的過程努力，但是你的答案是世界最後一名，怎麼辦？怎麼辦？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們現在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果你的回答只是告訴我現在的做法是什麼，但是你的答案是全世界最後一名，本席不希望聽到這一些。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要聽到你精進的方案，因為錢不斷地在增加，你現在的方式有沒有調整的空間？怎麼樣去鼓勵？請做說明。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，其實10月1日陳時中政委召集了各部會，也包括國發會，我們探討了這件事，10月17日在國家發展委員會也談到這件事情……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有方案出來？有沒有方案？你從200億到明年度預估……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們對方案是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：將近1,200億，有沒有方案？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：方案是有，有一部分已經在今年的預算裡面提出來，就是一些補助的增加，而且我們最近也會修法，包括一些法令的鬆綁，但是我們希望有更大的改變，所以在那個會議裡面，我們希望3個月後大家在會議裡面再來探討一次。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從什麼時候的3個月？本席希望聽到方案，因為我們即將要審預算，要知道這一筆預算能不能花在有效的效能，所以這一個提問，本席請問……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個預算在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們的整體方案什麼時候可以出來？多久時間？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：先講一下，少子化對策的整體方案早就出來了，明年是最後一年，我們是一個多年計畫，現在在實施中，它是散在各個部會，這在我的報告裡面也有報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：實施中，所以你的答案是全世界最後一名！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席具體建議，你去盤點，主委，你去盤點，現在是最後一年，你的答案也是世界最後一名，所以趁著還有機會，在重議的時候，到底你的預算、你的方案要怎麼樣精進，3個月內給本席，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我3個月給你。但是我也跟您報告，我們有探討很多事情，其實這個不歸我的責任，但是我主動找了院長探討，我們也提了幾個方案出來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你不要再說了啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這裡面需要500億到1,000億左右的預算，其實我們現在還沒有找出財源。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是國發會的主委，拿出你的guts去提出方案，預算怎麼分配，這是我們要看到的，好嗎？3個月內將你的方案給本席。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們實質討論，勞動部在這裡，全臺有90%是屬於中小企業，有關彈性工時的部分，勞動部，你們現在的進度怎麼樣？"],["黃副署長齡玉：是不是請條平司說明？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：勞動部，你們現在的作為、方向是怎麼樣呢？"],["李專門委員怡萱：報告委員，其實依照勞動基準法及性別平等工作法，現在在法令裡面就有一些可以實施彈性工作時間的措施和空間，不管是彈性工時，又或者是可以調整上下班，又或者是有一些彈性的請假，這些在勞動法規裡面都允許可以去做一些安排。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是沒有辦法落實，所以為什麼請國發會主委以及你同步，大家互相橫向聯繫？我再次強調，90%都是屬於中小企業，我們同時要顧及國家產業，當然最重要、現在最傷腦筋的全世界生育率最後一名這個問題，一年度要花一千多億，在這樣的情況之下，我們的橫向聯繫到底要怎麼樣去精進，這是本席在跟你討論的議案，我們一方面希望國家發展，二方面不敢得罪雇主，然後又要趕快讓他們可以有彈性工時，這個功課是要很有智慧的，我把這個功課拋出去，請國發會跟勞動部你們好好去研討要怎麼樣能夠落實，所以我拋出一個議題，國發會主委，如果這個沒有領頭羊不可能，你是不是可以請我們的政府單位跟國營企業當領頭羊，試行彈性工時的可行性？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，這個我會跟相關國營事業的主責單位……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國營事業，政府部門，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會來討論看看，再跟您報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，國家帶著走，人家就願意，你國家自己都不做，當然到目前為止，你到最後這1,200億花完了，還是全世界最後一名啊！這是我們不願意看到的，所以我想了又想，是不是由我們的國營事業跟政府部門率先試辦，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我來跟經濟部這些單位討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這樣就對了！你多久時間可以告訴我可跟不可？你們率先來試辦嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們是不是先用1個月？我來努力看看。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，1個月告訴我，我真的非常希望國家政府自己帶著做，企業它會看嘛！好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要跟你討論的是，在10月17日你公布了2024到2070年人口推估結果，你慢了3個月公布，但是總是公布了，你告訴我們少子化跟高齡化的現象，預估2070年我國總人口將比2024年減少844萬人，換句話說，到了2070年，我們從2,300萬人會降到1,500萬人，所以主委，這樣子的數字告訴我們，你要怎麼樣朝向少子化、勞動力、經濟產業、財政收支，尤其是我們的醫療照護這一些面向，做一個橫向整體性的研討？這個是務必要做的，我已經看到2070年我們的人口剩下1,500萬人，這怎麼辦呢？請做說明。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分我們整理了各種影響因素以後，在陳政委的會議裡面有特別提出來給各部會，希望他們針對這些議題可能的傷害和影響提出想法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定傷害！沒有人什麼都不用講了！所以請教主委，你的KPI指數，什麼時間點可以提出你們的方案？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這樣子好不好？我還是得跟陳政委討論，我跟陳政委討論之後再跟您回報，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你初步3個月提出一個草案、方案，我們繼續討論，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我還是要徵得陳政委的同意啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對、對，所以你趕快去討論，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個很重要，到了2070年我們剩下1,500萬人，這個很緊張耶！這怎麼辦？","最後1分鐘。來，主委，7月底外國專業人才有效許可已經達到五萬六千多人次，特定專業人才達到一萬五千多人次，含就業金卡的部分是1萬0,720人次，換句話說，是7萬1,808人次，2017年的時候我們實施外國人才專法，所以人數到目前有增加，但是我們看到目前的產業必須要加入AI等等，必須跟世界接軌，所以我要求你跨部會去盤點產業人才的缺口，你去延攬國際的人才，因為光光加註一個項目，淨零人才這是勢在必行，如果依照你目前的步驟是沒有辦法吻合我們國家發展所必要的人才以及跟世界接軌，是不是我把這個功課給你，你去研討，把那個方案告訴我們，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，沒問題，我們其實有資料啦！我們把這個資料整理給你。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間可以給本席？來，多久時間可以給本席？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：1個月給你。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，1個月，我們希望好好地協助國內的產業，好不好？謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，其實我1月份會去國外攬才，好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員超明代）：現在請邱志偉召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-8","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","陳菁徽","賴惠員","羅美玲","陳培瑜","蔡易餘","林月琴","翁曉玲","張雅琳","吳春城"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、衛生福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就「我國少子女\n化現況及對策計畫成效，暨我國與亞鄰國家之留才攬才政策競爭力比較」進行報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事行政總處首長就「我國少子女化對策主管單位與\n主要國家做法之比較，暨我國參採改制之可行性」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00003"}}},{"id":"156108","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685b879edbd971004bfa28079f68b7ad4a88ce0a1e5c1d8db7969f71be98fdbdd0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:25:55 - 11:35:45","影片長度":"00:09:50","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【10月23日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:25:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:35:45+08:00","duration":590,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":5,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-5"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.40221875,"end":3.0853437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.438468750000002,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.25221875,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":21.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.44534375,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.95159375,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.96846875,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.985343750000002,"end":53.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.689093750000005,"end":56.258468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.13596875,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.751593750000005,"end":62.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.227843750000005,"end":71.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.63596875,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.20971875000001,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.77471875,"end":74.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.47909375,"end":86.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.54471875,"end":87.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.27034375000001,"end":93.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.15971875000001,"end":101.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.47909375,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.33471875000001,"end":111.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.76034375,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.28346875000001,"end":112.89096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.43909375000001,"end":130.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.67909375,"end":119.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.15159375,"end":120.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.66034375,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.49659375000002,"end":183.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.23846875,"end":187.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.51221875000002,"end":191.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.76471875000001,"end":195.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.71346875,"end":209.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.22596875000002,"end":213.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.65159375000002,"end":222.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.47284375,"end":225.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.98721875,"end":256.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.26096875,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.76659375,"end":299.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.10221875,"end":306.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.60346875000005,"end":308.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.13909375000003,"end":316.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.59409375,"end":312.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.06659375000004,"end":312.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.29409375,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.72409375,"end":326.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.10284375000003,"end":325.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.97159375,"end":328.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.43971875,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.22409375,"end":331.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.27471875000003,"end":333.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.46846875,"end":334.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.44284375,"end":336.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.38346875,"end":340.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.14221875000004,"end":343.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.87596875,"end":367.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.05096875000004,"end":359.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.92409375,"end":360.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.89846875,"end":362.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.66971875,"end":370.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.85534375000003,"end":368.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.42034375000003,"end":394.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.65284375000005,"end":399.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.81659375000004,"end":405.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.79034375000003,"end":410.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.65034375000005,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.88534375,"end":421.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.51471875000004,"end":449.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.40784375000004,"end":456.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.23409375000006,"end":456.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.53346875000005,"end":461.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.07721875000004,"end":467.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.53596875000005,"end":470.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.48909375000005,"end":476.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.51846875,"end":471.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.15909375,"end":488.98409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.86784375,"end":476.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.95221875000004,"end":478.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.50721875000005,"end":490.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.50284375,"end":511.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.00596875,"end":513.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.9422187499999,"end":516.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.18221875,"end":526.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.2865937500001,"end":530.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.21846875,"end":529.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.54721875,"end":538.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.20909375,"end":535.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.5209687500001,"end":540.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.7734687500001,"end":542.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.22471875,"end":543.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.6297187499999,"end":548.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.6540937500001,"end":549.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.41346875,"end":553.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.84346875,"end":555.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.8134687500001,"end":558.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.72846875,"end":560.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.94784375,"end":559.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.28096875,"end":563.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.64784375,"end":582.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.00971875,"end":568.9209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.35909375,"end":573.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.5615937499999,"end":575.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.19721875,"end":585.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.78284375,"end":588.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.79971875,"end":589.6940937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.489,"end":2.612,"text":"好,接下來我們有請葉元之委員質詢。好,有請蕭院長。"},{"start":22.231,"end":49.337,"text":"院長早安這個故宮博物院的裡面的國寶大家都非常的重視也希望國寶可以有好的保存然後也希望國寶如果就是平常有什麼問題的話可以及時的修復而且呢可以定期的保養那在這個部分的話能力就非常的重要就是到底我們有沒有這方面的專業的人才到底有沒有足夠的能力可以去修復我現在先跟"},{"start":50.537,"end":73.43,"text":"院長討論一個就是有關於織品的部分先請教院長在我們故宮博物院裡面織品有沒有什麼比較有名的一些國寶你跟大家分享一下有沒有就你的了解對織品的國寶的話我不是很清楚因為有客司有織品的部分所以故宮博物院院長對於國寶不是很了解喔"},{"start":75.523,"end":76.924,"text":"我問說在故宮的典藏裡面有沒有資品比較有名的?"},{"start":95.175,"end":114.421,"text":"比如說故宮國寶比如說像翠白菜大家都講出來嘛清明上河圖是屬於書畫部分啊然後像肉形石等等等等我現在是問說有沒有您覺得很有名的織品有沒有我跟委員報告實話實說真的我你真的不知道對所以是因為沒有還是你不知道"},{"start":116.132,"end":129.499,"text":"之品裡面有沒有國寶我不曉得有應該是OK花同仁跟我講說有一間國寶就是老會及景冊花間形容就是就是有一件國寶"},{"start":131.201,"end":148.542,"text":"應該不只啦應該不只啦我們應該有好幾件應該是有好幾件那希望那為什麼我會特別講織品呢因為我們現在根據故宮的典藏文物織品的數量大概是有1626件基本上它也不算少它比玉器啊漆器"},{"start":149.503,"end":171.507,"text":"還有像雕刻啊這一類都多那當然是略少於陶瓷器跟銅器但他應該也算是非常多元多量的一個國寶之一但現在有一個非常嚴重的問題什麼問題呢這個這個表格啊院長看一下這是113年10月修護人員的配置我們會發現在這個書畫類的"},{"start":174.648,"end":190.706,"text":"人員總共編制是6位古籍檔案編制人員是5位器物的編制人員是4位但是織品類編制內只有一位編制外零換句話說這剛剛我講到這1000多件的織品"},{"start":191.846,"end":209.105,"text":"是誰來修復誰來保養就只有一位同仁只有一位同仁那這一位同仁他還沒有職務代理人如果他今天有事請假休假那或者是說萬一他離職那現在我們就沒有人負責織品了"},{"start":210.968,"end":225.022,"text":"我個人覺得是一件算是嚴重的事情而且我不知道院長你知不知道其實故宮的像這種修復人員不管你是修復書畫器物啊或者是哪一類的人員都很搶手國外有很多拍賣中心啊"},{"start":226.375,"end":255.455,"text":"蘇比士或什麼的拍賣中心都很喜歡挖角故宮的這一類人才因為這一類人才對於這種有價值的文物是比較有鑑定能力的他們都很喜歡找故宮人才去那萬一你現在看起來雖然像是什麼器物啊侍衛看起來比較多但是一旦面臨到挖角或者是他有事情因任何的原因離職你就沒有人在做這件事情了這個其實我覺得"},{"start":256.495,"end":280.132,"text":"是還蠻嚴重的事情我不知道說院長你的看法是怎樣先講資品的部分因為故宮的確就是有一千多件的資品那一千多件的資品的話其實以分類的類像來講是最少的雖然是所謂的滑鐵或是踏片比他多可是因為他放在書文的整體的類像裡面所以資品的部分的話因為"},{"start":282.074,"end":299.144,"text":"國慶展示的機會也比較少然後他狀況也比較穩定那最近的話其實那個數量大部分很多都是難驗的難驗的資品的狀況入場的時候狀況都不錯所以並不是說每一件都要拿來修修補補沒有因為買的時候就已經挑過了"},{"start":300.423,"end":329.543,"text":"欸我覺得也不是院長這樣講好像資品在故宮博物院連不重要一樣但是其實故宮南院最近才辦了一個亞洲資品展嘛對不對所以代表說資品對你們來說也是很重要的保障之一那我現在是對但是院長給我的感覺是說資品沒那麼嚴重啦也不容易壞啦然後我們量也不多啦所以助理研究員藝人還好啦"},{"start":330.504,"end":340.32,"text":"你是這個意思嗎那你覺得一個人夠的嗎我當然希望有更多的人力你希望有更多人力可是你剛剛給我的感覺不是第一時間這樣子回答"},{"start":341.192,"end":364.025,"text":"你如果我們今天把這個問題告訴你你如果認為這個能力不夠你第一時間回答應該是說你覺得我們應該要挖掘更多人才來讓我們的國保得到妥善的照顧但是你的回答不是啊你的回答是說跟委員報告資品其實在我們故宮裡面不算多啦所以你的回答的方式其實第一時間就凸顯你內心的真正想法"},{"start":364.565,"end":393.684,"text":"就是對於資品不重視嗎所以一個人也還好但我覺得這樣的態度大家會很緊張因為國寶這些我們上個會期也跟院長就教過這個是多少人花盡心血甚至喪失生命把它運來的那我們都希望每一個國寶得到最妥善的照顧那故宮博物院就擔這個重責大任但是院長好像對於國寶的重視程度並沒有我們想像的這麼高"},{"start":394.725,"end":420.876,"text":"那所以我再問你一次,現在職品研究員一人你覺得夠嗎?整體來講的話,我剛先講職品,整體來講的話故宮的修復人力其實是不足的。不足的,那請問一下你提出了什麼改善的計畫,要擴充人力?因為擴充人力的話,其實以故宮編制來講的話每年都減一兩個減一兩個,實際上要擴充人力不太容易。那你就覺得,不是啦,院長。"},{"start":422.116,"end":449.438,"text":"我知道我們未來在南院的話就會有一個專業的修復工房那這個專業的修復工房的話未來的話就要銜接國內的譬如說南義大他有谷物修復研究所或是營科大他們這些同仁的話在學校的時候進入到一個階段就可以跟故宮建教合作用這樣的方式我覺得我是覺得反不濟急啦現在講的計畫都還很久遠請你先提一個方案出來好不好擴充這個人力啦"},{"start":450.461,"end":466.228,"text":"因為擴充能力的話就要要求增加能力這個是沒有不太容易的那另外﹖所以就擺爛喔不是擺爛另外的話像比如說我在臺北館的時候我會擺沒有啦我不用扯這麼遠啦現在就你自己也認為能力不夠嘛那你要不要擴充嘛就這個問題那麼簡單嘛"},{"start":467.728,"end":488.667,"text":"要還是不要的問題而已嘛要就提出方案出來嘛OK好我們想辦法來擴充然後我會去跟行政院爭取在我們的基建這樣才對嘛你為什麼剛剛回答的感覺都是你根本不重視這件事情不是不重視然後另外一件事情這個你就提方案出來還有一個就是我們上個會期一直要求你去做的我們一直希望說故宮博物院可以去"},{"start":491.309,"end":516.144,"text":"這爭取自己的權益跟商譽啦那這個所謂的台北故宮交流中心這是一個冒用的一個抖音上面的帳號明明就不是故宮的授權單位但他卻可以在平台上面大剌剌的做授權的生意那這個上個會期故宮說要去提告啊就提告到哪裡去了就提告了他已經下架了沒有這昨天才查到的啊怎麼會下架"},{"start":518.5,"end":535.408,"text":"因為我們大概起碼至少一季就上次去告一次可是你們就是隨隨便便嗎就是沒有認真去告嗎有叫警察積極去查嗎因為這個部分的話警察沒有辦法查我們透過大陸的律師現在的司法有那麼弱嗎"},{"start":541.111,"end":557.736,"text":"決心的問題啦你最近一次處理這個事情是什麼時候七月份吧七月份現在幾月現在十月那你覺得三個月不問不問這樣對嗎沒有啦一季我們一季處理一次所以這個東西在網路上你們也不覺得很重要嗎"},{"start":559.135,"end":584.961,"text":"請你捍衛你自己的商譽好嗎?如果有人打著故宮的名號在做授權生意你們卻覺得無所謂一記再處理一次就好了這就是回到剛剛的態度就是故宮對於國保不重視故宮對於商譽也不重視這個我自己認為說這個是院長最應該做的事情啦但是我覺得很遺憾就是你對於外界期待你的工作你並不是那麼的重視那如果沒關係下次我再繼續問你啦好謝謝"},{"start":588.835,"end":588.999,"text":"好謝謝葉元"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時26分）主席您好，請故宮博物院院長。"],["主席：有請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：葉委員早。"],["葉委員元之：院長早安。故宮博物院裡面的國寶，大家都非常地重視，希望國寶可以有好的保存，也希望國寶有什麼問題的話，都可以及時地修復，而且可以定期地保養，在這個部分，人力就非常重要，到底我們有沒有這方面的專業人才和足夠的人力去修復？","我先跟院長討論織品這個部分，先請教院長，在故宮博物院裡面，織品有沒有比較有名的國寶，請你跟大家分享一下，有沒有？就你的瞭解。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對織品的國寶我不是很清楚，因為織品的部分有緙絲……"],["葉委員元之：所以故宮博物院院長對國寶不是很瞭解？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是，因為織品的部分，北院比較少，南院比較多，的確，織品裡面有哪些是國寶我比較不清楚。"],["葉委員元之：不是，我是問，在故宮的典藏裡面，有沒有什麼織品比較有名？譬如故宮的國寶翠玉白菜大家都講得出來，清明上河圖是屬於書畫類，然後像肉形石等等，我現在問的是，有沒有你覺得很有名的織品？有沒有？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，實話實說真的……"],["葉委員元之：你真的不知道？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["葉委員元之：是因為沒有，還是你不知道？"],["蕭院長宗煌：織品裡面有沒有國寶，我不曉得。"],["葉委員元之：有啊！應該是……"],["蕭院長宗煌：OK，同仁跟我講，織品有一件國寶，就是「鏤繪集錦冊花間行龍」。"],["葉委員元之：應該不止，我們應該有好幾件。為什麼我會特別講織品呢？因為根據故宮的典藏文物，織品的數量大概是1,626件，基本上不算少，比玉器、漆器和雕刻這類都多，當然，它略少於陶瓷器跟銅器，但是應該也算是非常多量的國寶之一。現在有一個非常嚴重的問題，什麼問題呢？這個表格請院長看一下，這是113年10月修復人員的配置，我們可以發現，書畫類的人員編制是6位；古籍檔案的編制人員是5位；器物的編制人員是4位；但是織品類編制內的人員只有1位，編制外是0位。換句話說，剛剛我講到這一千多件的織品是誰來修復和保養？就只有1位同仁，這位同仁還沒有職務代理人，如果他今天有事請假、休假，或是萬一他離職，現在就沒有人負責織品，我個人覺得這算是一件很嚴重的事情，而且我不知道院長知不知道，其實故宮的修復人員，不管是修復書畫、器物或是哪一類，其實都很搶手，國外有很多拍賣中心，像蘇富比或是什麼拍賣中心，都很喜歡挖角故宮這一類的人才，因為這些人才對於這些有價值的文物是有鑑定能力的，所以他們都很喜歡找故宮的人才。雖然現在看起來，像器物有4位比較多，但是一旦面臨挖角、有事情或是因任何事情離職，就沒有人可以做這件事情，我覺得這事情其實還滿嚴重的，我不知道院長你的看法是怎樣？"],["蕭院長宗煌：先講織品的部分，的確，故宮有一千多件的織品，這一千多件的織品以分類的類項來講是最少的，雖然畫帖或是拓片比它多，可是因為它放在書文這個類項裡面，所以織品的部分，因為過去展示的機會也比較少，狀況也比較穩定，其實那個數量很多都是南院的，南院的織品入場時狀況都不錯，所以並不是每一件都要拿來修修補補，因為買的時候就已經挑過了。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得也不是像院長講的，您這樣講，好像織品在故宮博物院裡面不重要一樣。"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是不重要，只是整個比例上來講……"],["葉委員元之：其實故宮南院最近才舉辦過「亞洲織品展」，對不對？這代表織品對你們來說也是很重要的寶藏之一。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，那個是新購的，新購的狀況比較好。"],["葉委員元之：對，但是院長給我的感覺就是織品沒有那麼嚴重，不容易壞，數量也不多，所以助理研究員1人還好，你是這個意思嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，不是這樣，沒有，因為整個……"],["葉委員元之：那你覺得1個人夠嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我當然是希望有更多的人力。"],["葉委員元之：你希望有更多的人力，可是你剛剛第一時間不是這樣回答，今天我們把這個問題告訴你，如果你認為人力不夠，你第一時間的回答應該是你覺得應該要挖掘更多的人才，讓我們的國寶得到妥善的照顧，但是你的回答不是啊！你的回答是說：「跟委員報告，其實織品在故宮裡面不算多」，所以你第一時間回答的方式就凸顯你內心真正的想法，就是對織品不重視，所以1個人也還好……"],["蕭院長宗煌：也不是這樣子。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這樣的態度會讓大家很緊張，因為上個會期我們就曾就教過院長，這個國寶是多少人花盡心血、甚至是喪失生命把它運來的，我們希望每一個國寶得到最妥善的照顧，故宮博物館承擔這個重責大任，但是院長好像對於國寶的重視程度並沒有我們想像的這麼高，所以我再問你一次，現在織品研究員1人，你覺得夠嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我剛剛先講織品，整體來講，故宮的修復人力其實是不足的。"],["葉委員元之：不足的，那請問你提出了什麼樣的改善計畫要來擴充人力？"],["蕭院長宗煌：其實以故宮的編制來講，每年都要減一、二人，實際上要擴充人力不太容易。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！院長……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道，未來南院會有一個專業的修復工坊，未來這個專業的修復工坊會銜接國內譬如南藝大的古物修復研究所或是雲科大，這些同仁在學校進入一個階段後就可以跟故宮建教合作，用這樣的方式來讓他們的專業……"],["葉委員元之：我是覺得這樣緩不濟急，你現在講的這個計畫還很久遠，請你先提出一個方案來擴充人力，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為擴充人力就要增加人力，這個不太容易。"],["葉委員元之：所以就擺爛？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是擺爛。另外，譬如我在臺博館的時候，我會委託外面的修復……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，不用扯這麼遠，你自己也認為人力不夠，你要不要擴充嘛？就這個問題，那麼簡單，這是要不要的問題，要就提出方案。"],["蕭院長宗煌：OK，我們想辦法來擴充，然後我會跟行政院爭取在我們的基金預算裡面……"],["葉委員元之：這樣才對嘛！你剛剛回答給我的感覺就是你根本不重視這件事情。"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是不重視。"],["葉委員元之：好，這個你就提出方案。另外一件事情，上個會期我們就一直要求你要去做，我們一直都希望故宮博物館可以爭取自己的權益跟商譽，所謂的「台北故宮交流中心」是抖音上冒用故宮的帳號，它明明不是故宮的授權單位，但是卻在平臺上大剌剌地做授權的生意，上個會期故宮說要提告，結果你們告到哪裡去了？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有提告了，它已經下架了。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，這是昨天才查到了，怎麼會下架？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們起碼、至少一季就上去告一次，可是它下架後又上架。"],["葉委員元之：你們就是隨隨便便，沒有認真去告，你們有叫警察積極去查嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為這部分警察沒辦法查，我們是透過大陸的律師向大陸的法院遞案。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼沒辦法查？現在的司法有那麼弱嗎？這是決心的問題。你們最近一次處理這件事情是什麼時候？"],["蕭院長宗煌：7月份吧！"],["葉委員元之：現在幾月？"],["蕭院長宗煌：現在10月。"],["葉委員元之：那你覺得3個月都不聞不問，這樣對嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有啦！我們一季都會……"],["葉委員元之：一季處理一次，所以這個東西在網路上你們也不覺得很重要？請你捍衛自己的商譽，好嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：也不是，因為每天跟它講也沒有用。"],["葉委員元之：如果有人打著故宮的名號在做授權的生意，你們卻覺得無所謂，一季處理一次就好了，這就回到剛剛的態度問題，就是故宮對於國寶不重視，故宮對於商譽也不重視……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們每天都非常重視這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：我認為這是院長最應該做的事情，但是我覺得很遺憾的是，你對於外界期待你的工作，你並不是那麼地重視。沒關係，下次我再繼續問你，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","現在現場還有陳冠廷委員，請陳冠廷委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-5","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","林倩綺","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","張雅琳","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","葉元之","陳冠廷","吳春城"],"page_start":383,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00006"}}},{"id":"156107","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156107","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/402373dbe145685bdfa07c749338db861a854d634de4a24cce0a1e5c1d8db7961b3ed4d2a5df194e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:22:42 - 11:34:35","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2024-10-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-24","start_time":"2024-10-24T11:22:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-24T11:34:35+08:00","duration":713,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.33471875,"end":0.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.57096875,"end":0.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.73971875,"end":0.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.17846875,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.2122187500000001,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.44846875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.03471875,"end":3.1359687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":3.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.15284375,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.22034375,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.050968750000001,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.801593750000002,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.83534375,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.36221875,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.57721875,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.867843750000002,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.54221875,"end":23.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.145343750000002,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.54971875,"end":29.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.18659375,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.50659375,"end":40.885343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.12159375,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.63159375,"end":48.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.086593750000006,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.95971875,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.00534375,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.84034375,"end":59.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.751593750000005,"end":76.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.27221875000001,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.03159375,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.28284375000001,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.56471875000001,"end":96.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.18034375,"end":110.57909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.79909375000001,"end":107.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.11096875000001,"end":114.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.88221875,"end":115.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.99596875,"end":118.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.84784375000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.33284375000001,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.50534375000001,"end":131.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.92596875,"end":132.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.03971875000002,"end":138.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.09784375,"end":142.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.47721875000002,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.60346875000002,"end":143.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.63721875000002,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.70471875,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.47221875,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.36159375,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.71971875,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.23409375,"end":158.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.20409375,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.72284375,"end":163.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.80284375000002,"end":166.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.95846875,"end":176.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.42534375000002,"end":187.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.13659375,"end":189.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.04784375,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.96971875000003,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.48346875000001,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.16221875000002,"end":215.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.99721875,"end":218.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.62971875000002,"end":219.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.14846875,"end":222.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.52784375000002,"end":223.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.69659375,"end":222.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.18159375000002,"end":229.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.34096875,"end":239.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.56721875000002,"end":242.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.20409375000003,"end":242.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.89596875,"end":243.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.55409375000002,"end":252.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.66346875000002,"end":246.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.57471875000002,"end":247.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.77284375000002,"end":248.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.51909375000002,"end":260.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.41721875000002,"end":255.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.64846875,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.05721875,"end":264.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.53784375000004,"end":270.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.38534375,"end":278.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.45159375000003,"end":285.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.35346875,"end":286.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.97346875,"end":288.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.30659375,"end":289.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.50471875,"end":292.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.13284375,"end":295.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.69784375,"end":296.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.96346875,"end":305.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.12284375,"end":307.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.43034375,"end":307.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.56096875000003,"end":310.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.72096875,"end":310.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.78409375,"end":313.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.00346875,"end":315.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.30659375000005,"end":322.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.35221875,"end":320.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.92159375,"end":323.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.96346875,"end":327.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.70971875000004,"end":328.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.21596875,"end":329.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.82346875,"end":338.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.72159375,"end":333.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.57721875000004,"end":339.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.42096875000004,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.49221875,"end":343.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.37721875,"end":351.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":351.30096875000004,"end":351.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.51596875,"end":354.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":354.76034375,"end":356.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.13159375000004,"end":357.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":357.39284375,"end":360.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.59096875,"end":358.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":360.97034375000004,"end":371.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.43409375000005,"end":364.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.56034375,"end":365.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.47096875,"end":370.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.94346875,"end":370.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.14596875,"end":372.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.20471875000004,"end":376.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":376.32659375000003,"end":377.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.88346875,"end":382.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":379.65096875,"end":380.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.84034375000005,"end":397.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.51784375,"end":394.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.65284375000005,"end":394.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.12909375000004,"end":404.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":405.13221875000005,"end":412.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.95409375,"end":411.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.39284375000005,"end":411.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.42659375000005,"end":427.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.47471875,"end":427.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":427.49159375000005,"end":427.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.98096875000005,"end":428.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.06096875000003,"end":435.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.81096875000003,"end":439.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.62034375,"end":446.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.86409375000005,"end":448.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.82159375000003,"end":454.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.08221875000004,"end":455.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":455.48721875,"end":455.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.82471875000005,"end":457.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.01846875,"end":462.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.70534375000005,"end":465.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.86534375,"end":466.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.19846875,"end":469.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.49346875000003,"end":475.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.27721875000003,"end":476.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.12096875000003,"end":479.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.60159375,"end":481.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.60971875,"end":482.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.57159375000003,"end":487.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.66784375000003,"end":489.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.58721875000003,"end":493.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.38846875,"end":497.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.72534375000004,"end":504.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.48784375,"end":508.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.45346875,"end":509.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.02721875000003,"end":511.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.1028437499999,"end":515.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.5790937500001,"end":516.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.81096875,"end":523.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.51034375,"end":527.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.79659375,"end":534.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.2978437500001,"end":546.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.45346875,"end":536.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.43909375,"end":551.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.8940937500001,"end":562.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.5590937500001,"end":571.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.76034375,"end":583.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.17784375,"end":572.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.9397187500001,"end":598.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.67159375,"end":601.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.4897187500001,"end":603.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.43034375,"end":608.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.77159375,"end":612.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.52596875,"end":613.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.1628437500001,"end":621.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.8915937500001,"end":623.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.10221875,"end":628.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.9115937500001,"end":633.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.92346875,"end":656.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.43471875,"end":660.0459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.46846875,"end":657.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.8984687500001,"end":664.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.5009687500001,"end":668.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.82096875,"end":670.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.2553437500001,"end":671.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.34346875,"end":674.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.1953437500001,"end":677.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.9040937500001,"end":686.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.37221875,"end":678.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.55659375,"end":691.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.7709687500001,"end":696.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.5803437500001,"end":697.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.0359687499999,"end":697.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.1203437500001,"end":697.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":697.64346875,"end":697.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.66034375,"end":697.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":699.2465937500001,"end":700.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":699.2803437500002,"end":699.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.8034687500001,"end":699.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":701.03534375,"end":701.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":702.3347187500001,"end":703.4822187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.169,"end":10.897,"text":"以及財政部理事長鄭教授鄭教授請董事長還是總經理兩位嗎?鄭教授林董事長總經理是李總經理兩位嗎?董事長喔鄭教授喔謝謝我您好"},{"start":24.252,"end":43.548,"text":"是主委還有各位首長我想今天有幾個問題喔那第一個就是主委有看到我在禮拜二的質詢總質詢的時候跟院長請命希望在國發基金裡面有非常非常多未來的幾支箭那金融科技新創也是"},{"start":44.87,"end":59.88,"text":"賴清德總統他重要的政見推動亞洲金融科技創新中心那這些籌資的金額相關的費用我們希望院長能夠支持金融科技新創所以院長講得很清楚只要計劃周延"},{"start":61.611,"end":75.705,"text":"現在看起來國內的金控公司對於轉投資的部分做新創的部分除了凱基金以外其實其他的金控興趣缺缺"},{"start":76.406,"end":96.503,"text":"所以院長已經同意了只要有計畫就願意來匡列從文化部文化創意產業然後國發基金有智慧健康產業樹發部已經要到了AI新創基金環境部正在爭取百億的綠色成長基金主委我想問問你什麼時候要提案"},{"start":97.72,"end":118.061,"text":"謝謝委員對金融科技的支持也感謝院長這個正面回歸剛才國發會詹副主委也有提到就是說希望我們來提出這個計畫是我們會其實我們在過去其實針對這個部分我沒有我只有跟你要求時間就好了你年底你能不能像那個AI明年1月1號開始受理申請"},{"start":118.871,"end":137.979,"text":"好 那這樣的話我想這個委員有這樣的機會我們會盡快提出這個需求好 那就麻煩我覺得1月1號提出申請是一個不錯的日子兩個多月的時間把你的計畫我相信院長一定會支持好 接下來是今天很清楚就是金管會現在的金融科技我看到你們要成立一個處是嗎"},{"start":139.167,"end":161.801,"text":"是的,我們在因為已經行政委員合併我們現在正在籌備已經編了800多萬的預算是有這個野心請問這個處要做什麼這個處呢我們下面分成這個四個科第一個科叫做創新一科第二創新二科專門做創新實驗還有就剛才講未來金融科技的促進所以我想成立這些處是很好的事但是我覺得他們的功能跟人力可能還是不夠你接下來要管"},{"start":162.779,"end":162.799,"text":"好嗎?"},{"start":189.089,"end":215.647,"text":"只是一個處大概做不了這麼多事如果金融科技局包括剛剛講的新創基金包括你即將要列管的虛擬資產電子支付、融資公司這些其實都需要人力跟物力只有一個處應該做不到確實我們未來很多的新業務確實我們在人力上面以及經費上面確實要有一些新的想法我希望有機會在主委現在主政的情況下去跟行政院"},{"start":215.947,"end":221.989,"text":"主委,我們現在在109年蔡英文總統曾經宣誓也要打造高階資產管理中心現在又再講一次是以前做不好還是做不到"},{"start":240.775,"end":260.152,"text":"我想剛才講說其實歷任的……有什麼不一樣我覺得這是更全面性更普及的不限於高階我們是希望帶動各個金融產業這是銀行、證券、保險、投資、投庫只要是資產管理中心我們就是希望所有的錢都留在臺灣那留在臺灣的問題就在於是不是自由、是不是方便對吧"},{"start":261.02,"end":286.154,"text":"當然臺灣有很多的：當你說投資臺灣：是否有足夠的投資工具：多樣化的投資工具：滿足這種需求：是的：而且要讓他在這邊調度方便那現在的問題就在於我們有幾個問題今天我要問的是學者在財經一些學者是說外匯管制五百萬的美元限定每年每人每年三十二年沒有檢討所以央行這個部分的規定"},{"start":287.054,"end":308.812,"text":"如果要做資產管理中心這個部分32年了要不要討論一下外資應該沒有影響現在是個人的部分報告委員第一個我對他用外匯管制來強調這個問題其實是有爭議的沒關係每人每年500萬美金的部分可不可以做調整我提供您兩個數據做參考"},{"start":310.834,"end":337.9,"text":"我們的時間有限我只是說32年了要不要調整一下我先報告數據讓您知道就是說其實我們這些限制並沒有影響到我們一般的操作所以不影響不調整是嗎不是因為我們知道還沒有用到那個額度還不到所以我們希望能夠擴充到時候你再來檢討好嗎第二個部分是臺股交易的制度主委我們現在有一個臺股交易的"},{"start":339.881,"end":353.952,"text":"國際的趨勢美國開始已經實施T加1的結算交割那我們也在研究T加1的部分一一二年我們證交所已經做了相關的評估來證交所你們評估的狀況怎麼樣我們會朝向這個國際的趨勢嗎"},{"start":357.875,"end":369.841,"text":"跟委員報告那這個趨勢基本上現在是美國加拿大在用那事實上來講歐洲事實上也開始在研究那臺灣我們現在狀況基本上來講我的意思是說要做"},{"start":373.363,"end":401.582,"text":"所謂的資產管理中心這個可能也是其中一個項目是沒錯第三個部分證交所還有一個問題我們查過大概歐美的證券交易的時間大概都是6小時到8小時那亞洲大概比較低那臺灣只贏過中國我們4.5個小時那日本最近是5個小時還要再加半個小時這個可能也是不是可能跟資金調度或者是臺股交易可以增加外資的進展是不是也要做一些檢討"},{"start":402.262,"end":427.741,"text":"如果我們要做亞洲的資產管理中心的話這個部分來講的話我們當然都會事實上我們的交易時間也一直都在跟我們的證券商在做檢討我覺得這三個問題就是第一個500萬的部分第二個T加1第三個證券交易的時間如果我們要做亞洲資產管理中心我希望一併來做相關的檢討也給本席一個你們規劃或者是將來可能會做的一些調整可以"},{"start":428.041,"end":453.946,"text":"我覺得這是因為我看到金管會跟央行也非常有野心我們希望能夠成為所謂的把錢留在臺灣我們也希望錢真的進臺灣但是你要夠自由、夠方便這個也是我相信對我們的國人來說我們長期以來錢都在國外我們希望他們回來那就要有足夠的工具有足夠的方便讓更多的人願意把錢留在臺灣"},{"start":455.114,"end":456.074,"text":"彭主任委員"},{"start":476.328,"end":477.329,"text":"這件事情有點可怕"},{"start":490.589,"end":491.37,"text":"主委我們不是應該有所謂的銀行KYC嗎?"},{"start":510.121,"end":525.994,"text":"對 但是這個時間他也開了餐廳也開了公司但是現在看起來我們在國際形勢司法互助上面我們是個孤兒目前還沒有司法互助但是我們一直是洗錢防治機構的會員國不是嗎"},{"start":528.036,"end":546.634,"text":"我們在洗錢房子的部分在上一輪評鑑我們確實是得到蠻多的肯定所以這個案子現在已經出來了他擔任臺灣公司五家公司的負責人我相信只要他成為負責人他應該都會用到我們的金融服務除非他完全不開戶除非他只去"},{"start":547.675,"end":562.043,"text":"財政部買發票其他什麼銀行都不往來我覺得不太可能所以這個案子我們金管會有沒有繼續清查銀行在這端有沒有做過相關的風險評估或者是重新做KYC的調查"},{"start":570.992,"end":582.818,"text":"這個案子我希望金管會查一查因為為什麼我們透過相關的單位去了解之後我們發現了一件很有趣的事其實這個案這個人在2019年就已經有了負面報導"},{"start":584.019,"end":593.652,"text":"也就是他2019年已經有這個新聞在國際間已經有消息只要他在開戶的時候2019年那時候開戶的時候有做過相關的所謂的風險情報資料庫去調查去確認在國際上有沒有負面新聞"},{"start":601.442,"end":602.083,"text":"本國銀行對外國人開戶警戒性會更高"},{"start":625.024,"end":649.836,"text":"國際形勢調查的一些顧問但是我們是洗錢防治的會員所以洗錢防治這個個案我希望主委從今天開始至少在臺灣所有外國人開戶我們不是說所有人的問題只要進去這個資料庫再double check一次也許就可以找到更多這種所謂的國外的罪犯躲在臺灣而且我們竟然毫不知情"},{"start":650.196,"end":650.536,"text":"對,謝謝委員提供這個訊息我想應該是"},{"start":676.243,"end":677.084,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員接著我們請伍利華委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時22分）謝謝主席，我想請彭主委、央行副總裁、財政部及證交所。"],["主席：請彭主委、嚴副總裁、林董事長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主席及各位首長，今天有幾個問題，第一個，主委有看到我在禮拜二總質詢的時候，我跟院長請命，在國發基金裡面有非常非常多未來的幾支箭，金融科技新創也是賴清德總統重要的政見，推動亞洲金融科技創新中心，這些籌資的金額、相關的費用，我們希望院長能夠支持金融科技新創，所以院長講得很清楚，只要計畫周延，只要財力負擔可以，他就願意推動第五支箭。現在看起來國內的金控公司對於轉投資做新創的部分，除了凱基金以外，其實其他的金控興趣缺缺，所以院長已經同意了，只要有計畫就願意來匡列。從文化部文化創意產業、國發基金有智慧健康產業，數發部已經要到了AI新創基金，環境部正在爭取百億的綠色成長基金。主委，你什麼時候要提案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員對金融科技的支持，也感謝院長正面回應，剛才國發會詹副主委也有提到希望我們來提出計畫，其實過去我們針對這部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只有跟你要求時間就好了，你能不能像AI，明年1月1日開始受理申請？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員有這樣的機會，我們會儘快提出這個需求。"],["黃委員珊珊：1月1日提出申請是個不錯的日子，兩個多月的時間，把你的計畫提出來，我相信院長一定會支持。今天很清楚的就是金管會現在的金融科技，我看到你們要成立一個處，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，已經行政院核定，我們正在籌備。"],["黃委員珊珊：已經編了八百多萬元的預算，是有這個野心，請問這個處要做什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個處下面分成4個科，第一個科叫創新一科，第二個科叫創新二科，專門做創新實驗和剛才講的未來金融科技的促進。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想成立這些處是很好的事，但是我覺得它們的功能和人力可能還是不夠，你接下來要管虛擬資產，還有我們即將推的融資公司，最重要現在銀行局還在管電子支付，其實都跟新的金融科技有關。所以在上個會期我們已經提了金融科技局，希望金管會趁著現在組織改造的情況下，去跟行政院爭取你的人力、物力和金額，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們來思考看看。"],["黃委員珊珊：只是一個處大概做不了這麼多事，如果金融科技局，包括剛剛講的新創基金，包括你即將列管的虛擬資產、電子支付、融資公司，這些其實都需要人力和物力，只有一個處應該做不到。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們未來很多的新業務，我們確實在人力及經費上面要有一些新作法、想法。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望有機會在主委現在主政的情況下，去跟行政院爭取，體育部正在改組，所以趁現在可能有機會可以爭取得到。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的關心。"],["黃委員珊珊：我今天請幾位上來的主要原因是今天的題目叫作亞洲資產管理中心，主委，109年蔡英文總統曾經宣示要打造高階資產管理中心，現在再講一次是以前做不好還是做不到？有什麼不一樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得這次更全面性、更普及，不限於高階，我們希望帶動各個金融產業，銀行、證券、保險、投信投顧。"],["黃委員珊珊：只要是資產管理中心，我們就希望所有的錢留在臺灣，留在臺灣的問題就在於是不是自由、是不是方便，對吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，臺灣有很多的……當你要投資臺灣，是否有足夠的投資工具、多樣化的投資工具來滿足這些需求。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，而且要讓它在這邊調度方便，我今天要問的問題是，一些財經學者說外匯管制的每人每年500萬美元限制32年沒有檢討，如果要做資產管理中心，這個部分32年了，要不要討論一下？外資應該沒有影響，這是個人的部分。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：第一個，我對他用「外匯管制」來強調這個問題是有爭議的。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係，每人每年500萬美金的部分可不可以調整？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我提供你兩個數據作參考，我們從……"],["黃委員珊珊：我時間有限，我只是說32年了，要不要調整一下？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我先報告數據讓你知道，其實我們這些限制並沒有影響到一般的操作，因為我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：不影響、不調整，是嗎？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：不是，因為我們知道還沒用到那個額度。"],["黃委員珊珊：還不到嘛！所以我們希望能夠擴充，到時候你再來檢討。第二個是臺股交易的制度，主委，現在國際交易趨勢，美國已經開始實施T+1的結算交割，我們也在研究T+1的部分，112年證交所已經做了相關的評估，你們評估的狀況怎麼樣？我們會朝向這個國際的趨勢嗎？"],["林董事長修銘：這個趨勢現在是美國、加拿大在用，事實上歐洲也開始在研究，臺灣現在的狀況基本上來講……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是說要做資產管理中心，這可能也是其中一個項目。"],["林董事長修銘：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：第三個部分，證交所還有一個問題，我們查過歐美的證券交易時間大概都是6到8小時，亞洲比較低，臺灣只贏過中國，我們4.5小時，日本最近是5小時還要再加半小時，這是不是也可能跟資金調度或者臺股交易可以增加外資的進展，是不是也做一些檢討，如果我們要做亞洲的資產管理中心的話。"],["林董事長修銘：事實上我們交易時間也一直在跟證券商檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得這三個問題，第一個500萬元的部分，第二個T+1，第三個證券交易時間，如果我們要做亞洲資產管理中心，我希望一併來作相關的檢討，也給本席一個規劃或將來的可能會做的一些調整。"],["林董事長修銘：可以。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我看到金管會和央行非常有野心，我們希望能夠把錢留在臺灣，我們也希望錢真的進臺灣，但是你要夠自由、夠方便，我相信對國人來說，我們長期以來錢都在國外，我們希望它們回來，那就要有足夠的工具、足夠的方便讓更多的人願意把錢留在臺灣，好不好？"],["林董事長修銘：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：這3個問題就麻煩各位首長大概1個月之內給我初步的檢討方向，好嗎？主委，我們現在發現一件事，在2019年有一個義大利從事汽車租賃的人跑到臺灣來躲了5年，最近被國際刑警組織的西班牙幾個男子發現我們現在臺灣已經成為罪犯金盆洗手的退休天堂，這件事情有點可怕，這個通緝犯的新聞現在才出來，但是他在2019年就已經到臺灣，而且2019年他老婆已經開了很多家公司，有5家的公司都是用他的名字。主委，我們不是應該有所謂的銀行KYC嗎？但是這個時間他也開了餐廳、開了公司，現在看起來我們在國際互助上面是個孤兒，目前還沒有司法互助，但是我們一直是洗錢防制機構的會員國，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們洗錢防制的部分在上一輪的評鑑確實得到滿多的肯定。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個案子現在已經出來了，他擔任臺灣5家公司的負責人，我相信只要他成為負責人，他應該都會用到我們的金融服務，除非他完全不開戶，除非他只去財政部買發票，其他什麼銀行都不往來，我覺得不太可能，所以這個案子金管會有沒有繼續清查銀行端有沒有做過相關的風險評估或重新做KYC的調查？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果有涉及到銀行沒有完備洗錢防制法該有的管理程序，如果我們有這樣的資料……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個案子我希望金管會查一查，因為我們透過相關的單位去瞭解的時候發現一件很有趣的事，其實這個人在2019年就已經有負面報導，也就是他2019年已經有新聞，在國際間已經有消息，只要他在2019年開戶的時候有做過相關的風險情報資料庫調查，去確認在國際上有沒有負面新聞，他就應該可以查得到。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想本國銀行對於特別是外國人開戶應該警戒心會更高。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以在2019年有這個新聞，這個新聞現在去找還在，表示2019年假如我們對外國人開戶有查證過，不會到今天才知道他在這裡，其實我們是國際刑事調查的孤兒，但是我們是洗錢防制的會員，所以洗錢防制的這個個案，我希望主委從今天開始至少針對所有外國人在臺灣開戶，我們不是說所有人都有問題，只要進去這個資料庫再double check一次，也許就可以找到更多這種國外的罪犯躲在臺灣，而且我們竟然毫不知情，現在被爆出來，發現我們一無所知，可是他又開了這麼多公司。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會去瞭解他到底有沒有在銀行開戶。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們的銀行端當時有沒有去做到所謂的國際負面新聞的調查，這個部分可能要金管會把這個漏洞補起來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提供這個訊息。"],["黃委員珊珊：多久可以給我一個回答？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該1個月之內把資料給委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：1個月之內給我一個回答，而且這個部分可能要公示，尤其是要求接下來的不管是銀行端，可能都要做相關資訊的調查。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，如果有涉及到一些不合規、不合法的事情，我們會接續處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：要確實執行，如果當時有查的話，應該就不會讓他開這麼多公司了，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：理解，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接著請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-4","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","賴士葆","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","王世堅","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","葉元之","沈發惠","葛如鈞","賴瑞隆","羅明才","邱志偉","林楚茵"],"page_start":225,"meetingDate":["2024-10-24"],"gazette_id":"1138901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經\n濟部、交通部就「政府推動臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心之具體作為暨如何協助金融科技及新創產\n業籌資現況與未來發展」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1138901_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}