{"total":{"value":25,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-10-29"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"156223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f349d7a5f894b8ef7addb396f8b555173c0ec034bc6d805c63e0b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:15:52 - 12:16:32","影片長度":"00:00:40","會議時間":"2024-10-29T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T12:15:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T12:16:32+08:00","duration":40,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-2-27-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.63784375,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.920343750000001,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.679718750000001,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.69659375,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.607843750000001,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.67534375,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.69221875,"end":7.709093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.709093750000001,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.759718750000001,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.51534375,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.89409375,"end":40.80096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.656,"end":25.595,"text":"我可以發言了嗎可以嗎好謝謝主席那我們針對第11屆第2會期第7次會議議程報告事項質詢事項行政院院長主計場財政部部長國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告114年度中央政府總預算案及"},{"start":26.155,"end":26.555,"text":"那第三位我們請"}]}},{"id":"156222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34bc5d02b02c146fefdb396f8b555173c0ec034bc6d805c63eb6269e3722f5e7cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:11:44 - 12:13:09","影片長度":"00:01:25","會議時間":"2024-10-29T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T12:11:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T12:13:09+08:00","duration":85,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-2-27-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.68346875,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.54284375,"end":19.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.31471875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.38221875,"end":76.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.17096875,"end":76.87971875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.867,"end":20.982,"text":"主席在座的各位委員各位媒體記者朋友們本人現代表中共國民黨來提今天的提案本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第7次會議議事議程草案"},{"start":26.008,"end":27.669,"text":"除原列報告事項第37、63案增列報告事項第35、36、37、38、39、40、41、42、43、44及45案"},{"start":40.956,"end":67.232,"text":"建議暫緩列案外其餘報告事項執詢事項及行政院院長主計長財政部部長國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告一一四年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計劃第五期特別預算案編制經過並備執詢均照議事議程草案及各黨團"},{"start":68.392,"end":71.797,"text":"徵列報告事項通過是否有當 敬請公決"}]}},{"id":"156224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34525b318e0b240423db396f8b555173c0ec034bc6d805c63e0f6f7234e961ca575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:16:46 - 12:20:06","影片長度":"00:03:20","會議時間":"2024-10-29T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T12:16:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T12:20:06+08:00","duration":200,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-2-27-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.759093750000002,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.64409375,"end":21.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.30596875,"end":24.246593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.55034375,"end":25.360343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.54596875,"end":26.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.16596875,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.64659375,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.337843750000005,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.244718750000004,"end":37.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.20221875,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.37284375,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.37221875,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.532218750000006,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.77221875,"end":64.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.37096875,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.46784375,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.25659375000001,"end":77.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.43659375,"end":79.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.47846875,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.93284375,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.79284375,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.56409375000001,"end":126.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.62721875000001,"end":196.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.96596875,"end":200.97846875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.769,"end":36.724,"text":"好每次程序都要再上來講一次齁其實很浪費大家的時間齁再來就是齁為什麼會浪費時間不就是因為你們擋法案啊還敢講話喔是誰擋法案啊要不出來講現在上來講啊你的擋的理由是什麼你擋兩岸條例的理由是什麼現在上來講啊趕快趕快先上來講啊要不要上來講一下剛剛不是放棄發言嗎要不要上來講一下你先上來講為什麼啊快點啊快點上來講啊"},{"start":38.457,"end":63.474,"text":"欸先上來講 我知道實際上算了因為我每次的發言內容都一樣是因為誰擋法案是因為民眾黨跟國民黨每一次都擋立委附中的法案每一次都擋 理由還講不出來理由講不出來就不用再講話了你理由講得出來你等一下上來慢慢講你慢慢來 上來講來先想要上來講一下你等一下上來講一下"},{"start":65.407,"end":86.929,"text":"今天兩岸條例立委附中那麼簡單的事情立委附中要報備立委有多少的風險不是不能去連審會就在那裡所有的政務人員去都要報備縣市首長也要報備那為什麼林毅代表不用報備"},{"start":88.01,"end":116.619,"text":"民意代表今天在質詢的階段能夠得到多少機關的機密為什麼今天行程能夠不被知曉為什麼接觸黨政軍可以不用報備國民黨到現在都沒有提出任何的解釋你講的那個不是理由啊內部規範跟外部規範不一樣我在這邊報告了十幾次了耶不用私底下在講這樣的一個理由啦你今天內部有沒有性騷擾的規範跟你外部有沒有性騷擾的規範完全是兩件事情啊"},{"start":117.139,"end":129.21,"text":"你今天如果是跟立法院院長報備那個沒有意義啊立法院院長他怎麼可能會知道去中國的風險在哪裡他怎麼可能會知道去中國應該黨政軍的結構是什麼"},{"start":132.293,"end":154.515,"text":"只有陸委會跟國安單位才會知道相關的資訊啊不用再做這樣的一個辯解啦說什麼可以跟立法院院長來報備啊那很簡單啊那司法院院長以後去要不要來跟立法院長報備如果以後是我們的政務人員以後蔣望安如果要去是不是要來跟立法院長報備完全不符合規則啊他是屬於專業審查"},{"start":155.896,"end":184.393,"text":"你今天如果護照不見了你要辦護照你今天如果今天要繳稅要跟國稅局請問你今天是不是跟外交部是不是跟稅務單位他們是不是行政機關這跟行政機關有沒有能夠管制立法院相關的人是一點關係都沒有的事情你只要涉及跟專業有關的事項本來就是行政機關的權責不用再找理由說什麼這是立法院國會自律的內部事項你叛國你洩密"},{"start":184.793,"end":185.214,"text":"好 謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"156225","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156225","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34fb67400a05948de0db396f8b555173c0ec034bc6d805c63e4ac9ba3278b278f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:20:31 - 12:27:13","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2024-10-29T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T12:20:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T12:27:13+08:00","duration":402,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-2-27-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.1953437500000001,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.66159375000001,"end":104.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.31846875000001,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.77346875,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.41846875,"end":128.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.60159375,"end":140.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.83596875,"end":153.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.96471875,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.18471875,"end":180.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.84659375,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.52096875,"end":187.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.57534375,"end":189.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.12784375,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.47159375,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.99659375000002,"end":221.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.22846875000002,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.37159375000002,"end":223.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.24909375000001,"end":227.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.57346875000002,"end":228.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.60284375,"end":233.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.96909375,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.35284375,"end":240.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.97221875000002,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.86659375000002,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.98034375,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.96096875,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.12534375,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.27346875,"end":286.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.44596875,"end":290.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.75346875,"end":304.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.87784375,"end":306.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.56534375,"end":308.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.37534375,"end":308.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.97846875000005,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.70784375,"end":321.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.80346875000004,"end":323.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.07346875,"end":329.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.98034375000003,"end":323.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.99721875,"end":324.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.32159375000003,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.41784375000003,"end":336.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.34971875,"end":337.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.68721875,"end":339.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.40409375,"end":344.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.73659375,"end":346.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.54221875,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.31409375000004,"end":353.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.30534375,"end":354.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.35534375000003,"end":354.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.55784375,"end":354.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.91221875,"end":359.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.08096875,"end":355.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.65409375,"end":362.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.97846875000005,"end":363.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.01221875000005,"end":363.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.18096875000003,"end":363.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.60284375000003,"end":366.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.62346875000003,"end":379.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.17534375,"end":373.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.23846875000004,"end":373.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.93034375,"end":374.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.60534375000003,"end":374.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.31346875,"end":379.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.93784375,"end":379.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.20784375000005,"end":381.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.57909375,"end":387.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.33846875,"end":381.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.99659375000005,"end":382.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.28721875,"end":397.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.39221875000004,"end":388.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.68721875,"end":391.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.73346875000004,"end":392.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.03721875,"end":392.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.28159375,"end":395.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.71096875,"end":400.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.94721875000005,"end":400.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.26346875,"end":402.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.95534375000005,"end":402.97221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.57,"text":"我稍微回應一下其實今天我們在程序委員會"},{"start":16.664,"end":16.764,"text":"主席"},{"start":37.259,"end":49.185,"text":"其實大家都知道在行政跟立法它的權利分立所以呢現在我不曉得在我們的憲法法庭在大幅限縮跟閹割國會的一個權利之下然後呢還要繼續的來管我們立法委員立法委員要跟行政部門報告"},{"start":61.992,"end":68.353,"text":"所以現在是不是在民進黨的執政之下行政權無限的擴大無限的擴大是不是我們立法委員都要去跟行政院去報告到底是立法委員去監督行政部門還是行政部門來監督立法委員那剛才選委員特別提到說立法委員會有很多的接觸到很多的機密"},{"start":91.718,"end":93.62,"text":"在上一次的大選的時候以所謂的國安法約詢起訴我們很多的里長跟基層民意代表"},{"start":109.035,"end":110.457,"text":"結果選舉結束了一場誤會一場誤會所以也就是今天是不是我們的執政黨民進黨不但你撿掉的法寶撿掉的工具你還用不完在大選的時候"},{"start":128.778,"end":134.762,"text":"去構陷很多的理想然後企圖影響大選到現在為止理想幾乎至少我們所知道我們以臺北市來講通通沒事啊通通沒事可是在大選的時候煞有介事會生會隱企圖影響大選這是不是就是這些立法的目的我還要再講"},{"start":154.073,"end":170.405,"text":"要怎麼樣的擴權民進黨才能夠滿意呢包含我們的另外一位昭偉其實我很尊敬他他在程序委員會主持的時候是很公正的但是他提出來了就是只要有國安一律國安一律 然後重點來了可以解散政黨"},{"start":177.23,"end":184.172,"text":"可以解散政黨所以只要看你不順眼只要覺得你有疑慮我還可以把你的政黨給解散我們進入什麼樣集權國家嗎所以我要講的如果我們用這樣的一個立法可以讓新政權無限的擴大"},{"start":204.753,"end":207.315,"text":"還要解散你的政黨對不起"},{"start":224.29,"end":224.811,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":241.917,"end":242.117,"text":"主席"},{"start":258.985,"end":264.908,"text":"但是請問一下邱志偉有沒有提案啊邱志偉有沒有提案要解散政黨啊民主國家在沒有任何的理由之前只是因為說你有國安疑慮然後就要去升旗解散政黨怎麼樣選不過人家就解散人家是不是選不過人家就要把人家解散把人家瓦解是不是請問一下奇怪了"},{"start":287.688,"end":288.488,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":304.935,"end":317.104,"text":"對不對 你們在吵阿是不是基本的議事規則都不懂我在這邊結束之後我下面就不會講啦就不會像沈伯陽一樣啦你乾脆把麥克風帶下去好了是不是"},{"start":321.847,"end":323.408,"text":"在上一次截止登記之後我就沒有上去發言張瑞雄對不對"},{"start":344.818,"end":345.098,"text":"王委員就是麻煩兩位都"},{"start":366.903,"end":369.405,"text":"我尊重議事規則為什麼民進黨可以不尊重議事規則"},{"start":400.733,"end":402.597,"text":"好啦基本上"}]}},{"id":"16214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16214","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddda7c3e9e5abb1afeeeb81a3f89c80b376059d4d42a7fce210156fac0bbbe34f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-29T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議（事由：審定本院第11屆第2會期第7次會議議事日程及人民請願案）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-29T11:30:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T12:30:00+08:00","duration":3596,"影片長度":"00:59:56","委員發言時間":"11:30:04 - 12:30:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期程序委員會第6次會議","type":"委員會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[27],"id":"委員會-11-2-27-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1887.9047187500003,"end":1890.6722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1890.9759687500002,"end":1894.3509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1895.24534375,"end":1902.3328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1903.0415937500002,"end":1904.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1905.2015937500003,"end":1936.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1938.9684687500003,"end":1940.2172187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1941.1284687500001,"end":1943.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1944.75659375,"end":1946.6634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1948.0640937500002,"end":1950.7303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1950.9665937500001,"end":1953.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1954.2909687500003,"end":1995.0609687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1996.0228437500002,"end":2066.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2067.45471875,"end":2118.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2119.1090937500003,"end":2146.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2147.96534375,"end":2165.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2165.97096875,"end":2233.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2234.0615937500006,"end":2276.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2277.7340937500003,"end":2317.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2318.2509687500005,"end":2378.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2379.03471875,"end":2459.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2460.67596875,"end":2474.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2476.5215937500006,"end":2477.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2478.59721875,"end":2482.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2482.9678437500006,"end":2484.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2485.0772187500006,"end":2488.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2489.0934687500003,"end":2493.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2494.3415937500004,"end":2497.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2507.16659375,"end":2515.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2516.0428437500004,"end":2517.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2517.7978437500005,"end":2569.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2571.88221875,"end":2573.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2573.5865937500002,"end":2574.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2602.1559687500003,"end":2603.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2607.37034375,"end":2607.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2607.97784375,"end":2608.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2608.21409375,"end":2613.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2614.00221875,"end":2616.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2619.1490937500002,"end":2619.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2621.0897187500004,"end":2624.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2628.90284375,"end":2640.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2636.19284375,"end":2636.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2640.59721875,"end":2642.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2643.6853437500004,"end":2645.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2646.3347187500003,"end":2646.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2646.97596875,"end":2647.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2647.53284375,"end":2658.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2661.74159375,"end":2662.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2663.0915937500004,"end":2664.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2664.44159375,"end":2667.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2674.3134687500005,"end":2674.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2674.3809687500006,"end":2674.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2678.97096875,"end":2679.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2681.87346875,"end":2682.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2683.84784375,"end":2683.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2683.8984687500006,"end":2683.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2683.98284375,"end":2684.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2684.0840937500006,"end":2684.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2684.28659375,"end":2684.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2684.9615937500002,"end":2685.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2685.60284375,"end":2685.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2685.72096875,"end":2685.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2685.78846875,"end":2691.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2694.1922187500004,"end":2696.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2697.12846875,"end":2704.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2704.8572187500004,"end":2705.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2705.85284375,"end":2710.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2710.7128437500005,"end":2710.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2710.86471875,"end":2722.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2718.03659375,"end":2718.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2718.7284687500005,"end":2718.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2723.2003437500007,"end":2724.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2725.8328437500004,"end":2726.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2727.50346875,"end":2738.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2741.5603437500004,"end":2742.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2749.3397187500004,"end":2750.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2750.6222187500007,"end":2750.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2751.3815937500003,"end":2752.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2752.37721875,"end":2752.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2752.4278437500006,"end":2752.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2752.4615937500002,"end":2752.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2752.93409375,"end":2775.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2775.39471875,"end":2777.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2777.26784375,"end":2781.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2783.6297187500004,"end":2785.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2787.34221875,"end":2789.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2792.28659375,"end":2798.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2810.49471875,"end":2817.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2817.3797187500004,"end":2820.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2821.0584687500004,"end":2822.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2823.3028437500006,"end":2824.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2824.29846875,"end":2825.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2825.91846875,"end":2828.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2828.4159687500005,"end":2832.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2833.1072187500004,"end":2834.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2835.0309687500003,"end":2835.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2836.9715937500005,"end":2848.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2849.77971875,"end":2851.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2852.14221875,"end":2854.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2856.1247187500003,"end":2857.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2858.28471875,"end":2859.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2861.52471875,"end":2862.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2864.12346875,"end":2864.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2865.2372187500005,"end":2866.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2866.9753437500003,"end":2875.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2876.1553437500006,"end":2878.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2878.2478437500004,"end":2886.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2886.7022187500006,"end":2891.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2891.54534375,"end":2897.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2897.3503437500003,"end":2924.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2925.3797187500004,"end":2994.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2998.6847187500007,"end":3001.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3001.82346875,"end":3003.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3005.9747187500006,"end":3006.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3012.6572187500005,"end":3013.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3013.6865937500006,"end":3021.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3021.6853437500004,"end":3025.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3026.1403437500003,"end":3119.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3119.64471875,"end":3128.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3128.3015937500004,"end":3132.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3132.7734687500006,"end":3136.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3136.41846875,"end":3150.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3150.22221875,"end":3152.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3152.63534375,"end":3158.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3158.0859687500006,"end":3164.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3164.86971875,"end":3177.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3177.9647187500004,"end":3200.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3201.1847187500007,"end":3204.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3204.82971875,"end":3208.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3209.52096875,"end":3211.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3212.5753437500007,"end":3213.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3214.1447187500007,"end":3227.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3228.45471875,"end":3238.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3238.25909375,"end":3241.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3243.99659375,"end":3245.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3247.37159375,"end":3247.7090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3248.2490937500006,"end":3251.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3251.57346875,"end":3252.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3252.60284375,"end":3257.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3257.0240937500002,"end":3259.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3259.36971875,"end":3260.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3260.7028437500003,"end":3264.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3264.97221875,"end":3266.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3265.86659375,"end":3267.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3266.9972187500007,"end":3282.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3282.9609687500006,"end":3283.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3284.12534375,"end":3307.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3308.29034375,"end":3310.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3311.4459687500002,"end":3314.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3314.73659375,"end":3328.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3328.8778437500005,"end":3330.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3330.5653437500005,"end":3332.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3331.37534375,"end":3332.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3332.9784687500005,"end":3336.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3336.7078437500004,"end":3345.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3345.8034687500003,"end":3347.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3346.32659375,"end":3353.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3347.96346875,"end":3347.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3347.9972187500007,"end":3348.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3351.3047187500006,"end":3356.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3356.4178437500004,"end":3360.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3360.3328437500004,"end":3361.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3360.6872187500003,"end":3363.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3363.4040937500004,"end":3368.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3368.7197187500005,"end":3370.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3370.5253437500005,"end":3371.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3372.29721875,"end":3377.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3374.2715937500006,"end":3374.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3374.28846875,"end":3378.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3378.87846875,"end":3386.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3378.9122187500006,"end":3378.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3379.04721875,"end":3379.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3386.9784687500005,"end":3387.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3387.67034375,"end":3390.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3390.62346875,"end":3403.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3396.1247187500003,"end":3397.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3397.1034687500005,"end":3397.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3397.4072187500005,"end":3398.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3403.2459687500004,"end":3403.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3403.9715937500005,"end":3403.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3404.19096875,"end":3411.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3404.5622187500003,"end":3406.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3409.2703437500004,"end":3415.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3411.0253437500005,"end":3411.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3411.04221875,"end":3411.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3412.37534375,"end":3412.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3412.4090937500005,"end":3412.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3414.67034375,"end":3419.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3415.76721875,"end":3416.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3416.0372187500006,"end":3416.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3418.2647187500006,"end":3421.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3421.11659375,"end":3421.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3424.6940937500003,"end":3425.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3425.16659375,"end":3425.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3426.2803437500006,"end":3428.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3429.5372187500006,"end":3431.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3433.53659375,"end":3434.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3435.03846875,"end":3438.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3438.8015937500004,"end":3448.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3448.96034375,"end":3452.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3455.3222187500005,"end":3455.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3456.48659375,"end":3457.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3457.6847187500007,"end":3458.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3459.03471875,"end":3463.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3473.4628437500005,"end":3476.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3476.1628437500003,"end":3477.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3479.7740937500002,"end":3481.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3486.9459687500002,"end":3487.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3487.72221875,"end":3488.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3489.22409375,"end":3491.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3498.6403437500003,"end":3500.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3499.5684687500006,"end":3499.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3499.6022187500002,"end":3499.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3499.93971875,"end":3499.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3501.4415937500007,"end":3501.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3501.82971875,"end":3502.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3502.2684687500005,"end":3506.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3502.36971875,"end":3502.5215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3502.65659375,"end":3502.8253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3506.09909375,"end":3508.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3509.52471875,"end":3510.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3510.9590937500006,"end":3520.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3520.9490937500004,"end":3522.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3522.7547187500004,"end":3525.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3526.09596875,"end":3526.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3526.9228437500005,"end":3527.2940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3527.9353437500004,"end":3529.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3530.5847187500003,"end":3535.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3535.74846875,"end":3542.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3542.5322187500005,"end":3546.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3546.54846875,"end":3548.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3551.5097187500005,"end":3553.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3554.0240937500002,"end":3567.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3569.5828437500004,"end":3570.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3571.54034375,"end":3572.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3572.7890937500006,"end":3577.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3577.93596875,"end":3585.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3585.05721875,"end":3586.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3588.01034375,"end":3592.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3594.97971875,"end":3595.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3595.95846875,"end":3596.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3604.93596875,"end":3605.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3605.12159375,"end":3605.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3606.26909375,"end":3606.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3606.97784375,"end":3607.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3607.0622187500003,"end":3607.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3607.4840937500003,"end":3607.6190937500005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1888.05,"end":1911.197,"text":"報告委員會現在已足法定人數現在開始開會請宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院程序委員會第11屆第2會期第5次會議議事錄時間中華民國143年10月22日星期二中午12時1分至15分地點紅樓2101會議室出席委員廖元先祥等19人主席中委員發會8月4日上1宣讀本會議第11屆第2會期第4次會議議事錄"},{"start":1915.178,"end":1915.859,"text":"請問議事錄部分有無錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1944.91,"end":1949.162,"text":"沒有的話議事錄確定請宣讀報告事項執行事項及預算案報告並備執行"},{"start":1954.332,"end":1978.122,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期第7次會議議事審草案 時間 中華民國113年11月1日星期五 11月5日星期二 上午9時至下午6時 地點本院議場報告事項 一 宣讀本院第11屆第2會期第6次會議議事錄二 委員王洪威等你具有再生能源發展條例交經濟委員會審查 三至七委員李昆哲等你具 個人資料保護法交經濟委員會審查 鐵路法交 交通委員會審查 立法院組織法交 司法及法制委員會審查"},{"start":1979.082,"end":1994.153,"text":"責任安全衛生法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查委員翁曉琳等理據憲法訴訟法交司法及法治委員會審查9至11委員徐富奎等理據教育基本法交教育及文化委員會審查行政組織法交司法及法治委員會審查運動部組織法交司法及法治教育及文化兩委員會審查"},{"start":1996.094,"end":2017.071,"text":"十二至十三委員 林月琴等禮具 青年基本法交 教育及文化委員會審查 社會救助法交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查十四至十七委員 陳定飛等禮具 促進友善畜牧 水產養殖推動條例交 經濟委員會審查 新經濟移民法交 經濟內政 社會福利及衛生環境三委員會審查 教師法交 教育及文化委員會審查 刑事訴訟法交 司法及法事委員會審查"},{"start":2018.452,"end":2043.67,"text":"18至20委員羅志強等你居毒品危害防治條例交司法及法治委員會審查國家通訊傳播委員會組織法交司法及法治交通糧委員會審查陰害防治法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查又11至25委員楊耀等你居臺灣地區到地區人民關係條例交內政委員會審查社會救助法勞工保險條例老人福利法就業保險法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查又16至28委員羅美玲等你居娛樂稅法交財政委員會審查"},{"start":2044.431,"end":2066.363,"text":"中央廣播電台設置條例 交由司法及法制 教育及文化兩委員會審查就業服務法 交由社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 二九至三十一委員陳樹越等你具 使用牌照稅法交財政委員會審查 道路交通管理處罰條例自動安全管理法交交通委員會審查 三十二至三十七委員李博義等你具 威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利恢復條例交由內政委員會審查 個人資料保護法"},{"start":2067.703,"end":2082.734,"text":"職務品種及種苗法交經濟委員會審查遺留稅法驗酒稅法交財政委員會審查立法院議事規則交司法及法治委員會審查38委員蔡吉昌等擬具產業創新條例交經濟財政兩委員會審查39委員許志傑等擬具形式訴訟法交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2083.975,"end":2109.194,"text":"40至42委員陳俊雲等理區民法行政法法交司法及法治委員會審查國民年金法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查43至44委員馬文俊等理區公路法交交通委員會審查社會救助法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查45至47委員陳超明等理區所得稅法交財政委員會審查交易經費編列與管理法交交易局文化委員會審查老年農民福利經貸暫行條例交社會福利及衛生環境經濟內政三委員會審查"},{"start":2110.275,"end":2132.311,"text":"18至49委員 紐許婷等禮具 住宅法交 內政委員會審查 書院法交 社發及法治委員會審查50至53委員 王玉明等禮具 教保服務人員條例交 教育及文化委員會審查 幼兒教育及照顧法交 教育及文化 社會福利及衛生環境 兩委員會審查兒童及少年福利 居民保障法 兒童推育服務法交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查54至58委員 賴慧媛等禮具 使用牌照稅法"},{"start":2132.671,"end":2146.109,"text":"貨物稅條例﹑土地稅法﹑菸酒稅法﹑娛樂稅法交財政委員會審查五九至六十二文﹑秋營等擬具﹑電業法交經濟委員會審查產業狀況條例交經濟財政兩委員會審查癌症防治法﹑老人福利法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2148.001,"end":2163.331,"text":"6月3日至6月4日委員沈博洋等禮具臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例國家安全法交內政委員會審查6月5日至7月0日委員范怡等禮具大學法交交易及文化委員會審查運動部組織法廢紙交易部體育組組織法交社法及法治交易及文化兩委員會審查6月8日至7月0日"},{"start":2166.013,"end":2181.536,"text":"委員 外媒人等禮具 教師待遇條例 教私法及法治 教育及文化 兩委員會審查 兒童及少年福利 權益保障法 教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 七一至七二委員 郭育晴等禮具 不依依職保存條例 教教育及文化 委員會審查 國家委員研究發展中心設置條例 教私法及法治 教育及文化 兩委員會審查"},{"start":2182.997,"end":2210.144,"text":"73委員徐曉興等禮區﹐毒品危害防治條例交司法及法治委員會審查74至75委員廖先祥等禮區﹐動物保護法交經濟委員會審查性別平等工作法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查76至77委員林思明等禮區﹐住宅法交內政委員會審查保險法交財政委員會審查78至81委員張雅玲等禮區﹐威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復條例交內政委員會審查教師法性別平等教育法交教育及文化委員會審查教育人員日用條例交司法及法治教育及文"},{"start":2211.684,"end":2232.202,"text":"第8次會議委員．1屆等禮句．自通安全管理法．交通委員會審查第8次會議委員．3至9時委員．5配1等禮句．行政院組織法．中央行政機關組織基準法．交社法及法治委員會審查．交易部組織法．運動部組織法．運動部全部運動署組織法．國家運動產業發展中心設置條例．國家運動科學中心設置條例．國家運動訓練中心設置條例．交社法及法治交易及文化兩委員會審查"},{"start":2234.113,"end":2247.592,"text":"九十一臺灣民眾黨黨團你撤回公職人員選舉罷免法你一起用會同意撤回九十二至九十三行政院韓經審議運動部組織法運動部全面運動署組織法國家運動產業發展中心設置條例國家運動訓練中心設置條例國家運動科學中心設置條例"},{"start":2249.795,"end":2258.239,"text":"教育部組織法教育司法及法治教育及文化兩委員會審查行政院組織法教育司法及法治委員會審查行政院行政院行政院行政院行政院行政院行政院行政院行政院"},{"start":2279.168,"end":2303.233,"text":"95-178 國防部、內政部、農業部、經濟部、園民會、金管會、文化部、教育部、交通部、海委會、外交部、退府會、國發會、公平會、財政部、主計總署、河岸會、抒發部、考學祕書長、法務部、衛福部等含送書面資料交相關委員會179 財政委員會含送中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案審查日程及審查分配表引請院會並114年度中央政府總預算案處理"},{"start":2304.133,"end":2332.39,"text":"一八零 教育及文化委員會 含委員會交付事項業業審查完略 請查照案一八一至一八四 內政 經濟 外交及國防 財政司法及法治 社會福利及衛生環境等委員會 含位於行政命令審查極限 請查照案國民黨黨團提議甄列一 委員黃建豪等女居 文化創意產業發展法教教育及文化委員會審查二 委員劉雪婷等女居 醫療事故預防及正義處理法教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查三 委員楊瓊英等女居 今年日及節日實施條例 交內政委"},{"start":2333.391,"end":2350.48,"text":"4至6委員鄭天才等領區國家語言研究發展中心設置條例交司法及法治交易及文化兩委員會審查原住民出基本法交內政委員會審查原住民保留地進發補償條例交內政經濟兩委員會審查7至8委員萬美林等領區高級中等交易法交交易及文化兩委員會審查教師待遇條例交司法及法治交易及文化兩委員會審查"},{"start":2351.941,"end":2378.153,"text":"9.委員羅廷偉等理據性別平等工作法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查10.委員林德夫等理據兒童及少年福利與權益保障法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查11-12委員洪孟凱等理據運動產業發展條例交交易經文化委員會審查殯葬管理條例交內政委員會審查13.委員徐宇貞等理據紀念日期節日實施法交內政委員會審查民進黨黨團體徵列14-18委員王帝宇等理據臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例國家安全法"},{"start":2379.133,"end":2402.63,"text":"香港澳門關係條例 交內政委員會審查通訊保障監察法 交司法及法治委員會審查19至20委員 核心權等理據 產業創新條例 交經濟財政良委員會審查國民體育法 交教育及文化委員會審查21至29委員 林益錦等理據國家運動訓練中心設置條例 廢止教育部體育署組織法 教育部組織法 運動部組織法國家運動科學中心設置條例 運動部全民運動署組織法"},{"start":2404.591,"end":2423.381,"text":"國家運動產業發展中心設置條例交交司法及法制交易及文化兩委員會審查行政院組織法中央行政機關組織計準法交交司法及法制委員會審查30至34文成配一等領據政府採購法當中運輸工具波音語言平等保障法交交通委員會審查民法交交司法及法制委員會審查不移植保存條例交交易及文化委員會審查"},{"start":2424.762,"end":2442.097,"text":"維權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利恢復條例 交由內政委員會審查35-45 委員沈伯陽等 委員黃潔等 委員郭育晴等 委員張鴻祿等 委員張雅玲等 委員林詠晴等 委員李柏毅等 委員吳秉瑞等 委員陳培宇等 委員蔡易宇等 委員林一錦等 分別擬據臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例 交由內政委員會審查"},{"start":2443.499,"end":2459.078,"text":"46.行政院韓情審議貨物稅條例 財政委員會審查台灣民眾黨黨團提議整列47至49台灣民眾黨黨團理局道路交通管理處罰條例 交通委員會審查動物保護法 經濟委員會審查軍工教育人的待遇調整條例 司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2461.04,"end":2472.327,"text":"諮詢事項 行政院院長 主席長 財政部部長 國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告114年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案編制經過併備諮詢宣讀完畢報告委員會"},{"start":2478.989,"end":2496.802,"text":"議程草案報告事項第8案提案委員翁曉琳委員來含撤回予以刪除那我們現在請登記委員發言登記在第一位翁曉琳委員發言完畢後截止那我們現在請第一位翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":2507.359,"end":2519.564,"text":"主席在座的各位委員各位媒體記者朋友們本人現代表中共國民黨來提今天的提案本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第7次會議議事議程草案除原列報告事項第37 63案增列報告事項第35 36 37 38 39 40"},{"start":2537.03,"end":2554.274,"text":"41、42、43、44及45案建議暫緩列案外其餘報告事項、質詢事項及行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":2554.794,"end":2569.569,"text":"及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案編制經過並被質詢均照議事議程草案及各黨團增列報告事項通過是否有當 敬請公決好 謝謝那我們現在"},{"start":2602.182,"end":2624.761,"text":"我跟妳講啦那個 看大家意思啦因為中委員在簽名的時候其實議事人員已經在上面寫截止了中委員你還是堅持要講嗎因為你剛寫的時候議事人員已經在上面寫一個截止了"},{"start":2628.936,"end":2658.043,"text":"沒有 我沒有智慧 我就依照議事規則走那如果說大家 大家覺得沒問題我沒有智慧啦 我沒智慧啦沒關係 反正你看不起我 你在那時候看不起我那個 中委員 中委員這邊齁 跟各位委員報告齁跟各位委員報告那因為剛剛中委員他在簽名的時候因為議事人員已經寫截止了還是中委員可以麻煩其他的同黨委員能夠幫你講一下你要提出來的事項"},{"start":2661.758,"end":2666.702,"text":"我剛剛已經跟各位報告完畢了,謝謝各位你剛剛說歐腸委發言完畢結束的東西,但是他發言完畢之後你並沒有做任何處理不管他下來不下來,那個發言到底是不是發言結束了你那時候還沒有講說這個發言結束"},{"start":2685.851,"end":2708.806,"text":"我覺得齁如果照這樣那變成每一個人講完之後主席要說阿他講完了這樣嗎的意思嗎那個我好沒關係齁我跟那個沈昭偉報告齁就是因為剛剛議事人員在上面這不是我請議事人員寫的好好我知道我知道好我好我的意思是"},{"start":2710.222,"end":2723.947,"text":"第二位我們請張雅琳委員發言"},{"start":2741.601,"end":2742.901,"text":"我可以發言了嗎 可以嗎好 謝謝主席 那我們針對第11屆第2會期第7次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項 行政院院長主計長財政部部長國家發展委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告114年度中央政府總預算案及"},{"start":2770.831,"end":2798.39,"text":"中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案編制經過並被質詢 建請照議事日程草案及增列報告事項通過謝謝那第三位我們請林倩琦委員發言那林倩琦委員放棄發言好那我接下來我們請登記第4位的沈伯陽委員發言"},{"start":2810.523,"end":2835.479,"text":"好每一次程序都要再上來講一次齁其實很浪費大家的時間齁再來就是齁為什麼會浪費時間不就是因為你們擋法案啊還敢講話喔是誰擋法案啊要不出來講現在上來講啊你的擋的理由是什麼你擋兩岸條例的理由是什麼現在上來講啊趕快先上來講啊要不要上來講一下剛剛不是放棄發言嗎要不要上來講一下你先上來講為什麼啊快點啊快點上來講啊"},{"start":2837.231,"end":2862.319,"text":"欸先上來講 我知道實際上算了因為我每次的發言內容都一樣是因為誰擋法案是因為民眾黨跟國民黨每一次都擋立委附中的法案每一次都擋 理由還講不出來理由講不出來就不用再講話了你理由講得出來你等一下上來慢慢講你慢慢來 上來講來先想要上來講一下你等一下上來講一下"},{"start":2864.181,"end":2885.703,"text":"今天兩岸條例立委附中那麼簡單的事情立委附中要報備立委有多少的風險不是不能去連省會就在那裡所有的政務人員去都要報備縣市首長也要報備那為什麼林毅代表不用報備"},{"start":2886.764,"end":2915.374,"text":"民意代表今天在質詢的階段能夠得到多少機關的機密為什麼今天行程能夠不被知曉為什麼接觸黨政軍可以不用報備國民黨到現在都沒有提出任何的解釋你講的那個不是理由啊內部規範跟外部規範不一樣我在這邊報告了十幾次了耶不用私底下在講這樣的一個理由啦你今天內部有沒有性騷擾的規範跟你外部有沒有性騷擾的規範完全是兩件事情啊"},{"start":2915.894,"end":2928.083,"text":"你今天如果是跟立法院院長報備那個沒有意義啊立法院院長他怎麼可能會知道去中國的風險在哪裡他怎麼可能會知道去中國應該黨政軍的結構是什麼"},{"start":2931.065,"end":2953.254,"text":"只有陸委會跟國安單位才會知道相關的資訊啊不用再做這樣的一個辯解啦說什麼可以跟立法院院長來報備啊那很簡單啊那司法院院長以後去要不要來跟立法院長報備如果以後是我們的政務人員以後蔣望安如果要去是不是要來跟立法院長報備完全不符合規則啊他是屬於專業審查"},{"start":2954.654,"end":2983.147,"text":"你今天如果護照不見了你要辦護照你今天如果今天要繳稅要跟國稅局請問你今天是不是跟外交部是不是跟稅務單位他們是不是行政機關這跟行政機關有沒有能夠管制立法院相關的人是一點關係都沒有的事情你只要涉及跟專業有關的事項本來就是行政機關的權責不用再找理由說什麼這是立法院國會自律的內部事項你叛國你洩密"},{"start":2983.567,"end":2984.368,"text":"王宏威委員發言"},{"start":3013.735,"end":3022.563,"text":"主席請問 這個人不是講完下去了嗎 你可以繼續講啊 你繼續講啊還跑到外面 這你剛才就繼續講 連 你看 連基本的這種議事規則都不懂得的 在這邊叫囂 那我稍微回應一下"},{"start":3037.256,"end":3057.792,"text":"其實今天我們在程序委員會因為我們在上個星期有關總預算的部分那大家都釋出了一個一定的善意所以我們今天就是處理在總預算之外的那剛才沈博洋委員其實他講了很多次就像就是被迫我們在聽倒帶一樣那我要特別講到的是"},{"start":3061.255,"end":3073.178,"text":"其實大家都知道在行政跟立法它的權利分立所以呢現在我不曉得在我們的憲法法庭在大幅限縮跟閹割國會的一個權利之下然後呢還要繼續的來管我們立法委員立法委員要跟行政部門報告"},{"start":3085.982,"end":3114.735,"text":"所以現在是不是在民進黨的執政之下行政權無限的擴大無限的擴大是不是我們立法委員都要去跟行政院去報告到底是立法委員去監督行政部門還是行政部門來監督立法委員那剛才沈德洋特別提到說立法委員會有很多的接觸到很多的機密"},{"start":3115.715,"end":3117.617,"text":"在上一次的大選的時候以所謂的國安法約詢起訴我們很多的里長跟基層民意代表"},{"start":3132.808,"end":3134.45,"text":"結果呢選舉結束了一場誤會一場誤會所以也就是今天是不是我們的執政黨民進黨不但你撿掉的這個法寶撿掉的工具你還用不完在大選的時候"},{"start":3152.768,"end":3158.753,"text":"去構陷很多的里長然後企圖影響大選到現在為止里長幾乎至少我們所知道我們以臺北市來講通通沒事啊通通沒事可是在大選的時候煞有介事會聲會影企圖影響大選這是不是就是這些立法的目的我還要再講"},{"start":3178.067,"end":3194.379,"text":"要怎麼樣的擴權 民進黨才能夠滿意呢包含我們的另外一位召委其實我很尊敬他 他在程序委員會主持的時候是很公正的但是他提出來了 就是只要有國安一律國安一律 然後重點來了 可以解散政黨"},{"start":3201.224,"end":3206.785,"text":"可以解散政黨所以只要看你不順眼只要覺得你有疑慮我還可以把你的政黨給解散我們進入什麼樣?極權國家嗎?所以我要講的如果我們用這樣的一個立法可以讓新政權無限的擴大"},{"start":3228.729,"end":3231.29,"text":"還要解散你的政黨對不起"},{"start":3248.283,"end":3249.184,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":3265.911,"end":3266.111,"text":"主席"},{"start":3282.998,"end":3292.625,"text":"但是請問一下邱志偉有沒有提案啊邱志偉有沒有提案要解散政黨啊民主國家在沒有任何的理由之前只是因為說你有國安疑慮然後就要去升旗解散政黨怎麼樣選不過人家就解散人家是不是選不過人家就要把人家解散把人家瓦解是不是請問一下這奇怪了"},{"start":3311.681,"end":3312.481,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3328.926,"end":3341.094,"text":"對不對 你們在吵阿是不是基本的議事規則都不懂我在這邊結束之後我下面就不會講啦就不會像沈伯陽一樣啦你乾脆把麥克風帶下去好了是不是"},{"start":3345.857,"end":3362.13,"text":"好不好 就是你不懂啦可是等一下 主席不好意思在上一次 在截止登記之後我就沒有上去發言張瑞雄 對不對"},{"start":3368.835,"end":3375.758,"text":"我了不起在那邊講幾句但是我沒有上台喔我沒有講這要求喔 對不對如果這樣子這樣子的意識意識不公平不可以這樣子啊莊銳賢有長得比我帥嗎 對不對沒有沒有"},{"start":3391.846,"end":3393.387,"text":"王委員現在要麻煩可以回去"},{"start":3426.356,"end":3451.894,"text":"基本上我們這邊都是尊重各位委員但時間到我們一定會提醒登記發言委員都已經發言完畢那我們現在進行處理先提案先處理翁曉琳委員提案議程草案第37第63案及增列第35至45案暫緩列案請問對翁曉琳委員提議有無異議"},{"start":3455.356,"end":3481.804,"text":"有沒有異議有有異議的話那我們現在進行表決那請清點在場人數在場人數總共18人那贊成者請舉手翁曉琳委員提案者請舉手"},{"start":3486.954,"end":3487.955,"text":"請放下那反對者請舉手9位"},{"start":3503.976,"end":3529.241,"text":"那我現在先那個本案的表決結果是贊成因為我們剛剛表決結果是可否同訴那因為要依據我們的本院的規定那可否同訴時取決於主席那本主席是決定贊成所以本案通過那報告事項修正"},{"start":3530.606,"end":3548.682,"text":"通過執行事項行政院院長等報告14年度中央政府總預算案及中央政府前瞻基礎建設計劃第5期特別預算案編制經過並被執行通過張委員的提案就不再處理"},{"start":3551.53,"end":3574.992,"text":"那請宣讀人民請願案人民請願一寒送本院委員審查者共二案二一請願法第4條規定系審令請訴訟院之事項共兩案三一立法院執行法第65條規定寒算機關處理者共六案宣言請問有無異議好那沒有異議通過另外報告委員會國民黨黨團來案撤回"},{"start":3577.987,"end":3592.174,"text":"先前送之全民防衛動員準備法第15條條文修正早案請列入記錄請問有無臨時動議沒有話本次會議到此為止現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":3601.698,"end":3602.76,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"16213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16213","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609da7c3e9e5abb1afead9f551ce5fa921f6059d4d42a7fce21f84c6d0571c5c1a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-29","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-29T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T17:23:00+08:00","duration":31965,"影片長度":"08:52:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 17:23:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1796.9990937500002,"end":1799.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1799.8509687500002,"end":1807.1915937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":1807.5628437500002,"end":1812.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1831.9472187500003,"end":1832.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1833.1622187500002,"end":1833.8540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1834.5628437500002,"end":1835.8622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1836.2503437500002,"end":1836.7228437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1837.8028437500002,"end":1838.6297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1839.5072187500002,"end":1840.9415937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1841.11034375,"end":1843.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1844.1478437500002,"end":1846.5440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1847.1347187500003,"end":1848.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1848.9234687500002,"end":1849.9359687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1850.3072187500002,"end":1852.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1853.20971875,"end":1853.7159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1853.9353437500001,"end":1854.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1855.18409375,"end":1856.0784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1856.7028437500003,"end":1858.0697187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1858.42409375,"end":1859.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1860.0778437500003,"end":1860.5840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1861.37721875,"end":1862.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1863.73971875,"end":1864.2459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1864.9209687500002,"end":1867.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1867.7728437500002,"end":1869.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1869.3084687500002,"end":1871.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1872.0084687500002,"end":1874.8097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1875.1640937500001,"end":1876.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1876.7840937500002,"end":1878.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1878.5728437500002,"end":1879.8553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1880.2265937500001,"end":1883.4159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1884.0740937500002,"end":1884.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1884.6140937500002,"end":1885.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1885.6603437500003,"end":1886.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1887.24659375,"end":1888.7484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1889.3053437500002,"end":1890.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1891.2628437500002,"end":1891.8534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1892.4778437500001,"end":1893.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1894.0134687500001,"end":1895.0259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1895.11034375,"end":1896.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1897.50659375,"end":1899.8690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1900.4765937500001,"end":1901.9109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1902.1809687500001,"end":1903.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1904.2059687500002,"end":1905.5728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1906.0453437500003,"end":1913.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1913.7909687500003,"end":1915.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1915.78221875,"end":1917.4359687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1918.4822187500001,"end":1919.0897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1919.2753437500003,"end":1921.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1921.5028437500002,"end":1924.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1925.2322187500001,"end":1925.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1926.0928437500002,"end":1927.1053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1927.9490937500002,"end":1929.5522187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1930.0753437500002,"end":1931.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1931.7290937500002,"end":1932.9103437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1933.4840937500003,"end":1935.5428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1935.8465937500002,"end":1938.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1939.0865937500002,"end":1941.4490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1941.5672187500002,"end":1942.2928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1942.7653437500003,"end":1944.2503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1944.7059687500002,"end":1947.2372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1947.7772187500002,"end":1949.3128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1949.6334687500002,"end":1958.3072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1958.7122187500001,"end":1960.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1961.4290937500002,"end":1961.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1962.76221875,"end":1966.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1966.6434687500002,"end":1968.5672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1968.8372187500001,"end":1970.6934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1970.8622187500002,"end":1973.9165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1974.0347187500001,"end":1975.3340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1975.5703437500001,"end":1978.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1978.7597187500003,"end":1979.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1979.5528437500002,"end":1982.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1982.5565937500003,"end":1985.3578437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1985.94846875,"end":1990.9265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1991.1122187500002,"end":1995.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1996.5628437500002,"end":2000.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2000.4947187500002,"end":2001.3553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2001.8109687500003,"end":2003.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2004.2747187500001,"end":2005.8947187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2006.2659687500002,"end":2007.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2008.1053437500002,"end":2010.5353437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2011.4803437500002,"end":2014.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2014.78784375,"end":2017.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2017.6228437500001,"end":2019.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2019.4790937500002,"end":2020.6772187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2020.9640937500003,"end":2022.2972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2022.7865937500003,"end":2024.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2024.5078437500001,"end":2026.0772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2026.6678437500002,"end":2027.2415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2027.44409375,"end":2029.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2030.1947187500002,"end":2031.3422187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2031.9665937500001,"end":2032.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2032.9790937500002,"end":2034.9872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2035.3922187500002,"end":2037.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2038.3622187500002,"end":2041.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2041.6865937500002,"end":2043.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2043.9309687500001,"end":2045.6859687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2046.0234687500001,"end":2048.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2048.63909375,"end":2050.8497187499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2050.86659375,"end":2051.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2052.8240937500004,"end":2056.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2056.18221875,"end":2056.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2057.98784375,"end":2060.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2061.5147187500006,"end":2063.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2063.5397187500002,"end":2065.1934687499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2065.68284375,"end":2066.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2067.06659375,"end":2068.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2068.3659687500003,"end":2069.9353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2070.10409375,"end":2076.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2077.5965937500005,"end":2079.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2079.9928437500002,"end":2081.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2083.06409375,"end":2085.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2085.3759687500005,"end":2088.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2088.97034375,"end":2091.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2092.7840937500005,"end":2095.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2095.9734687500004,"end":2096.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2097.45846875,"end":2099.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2100.17534375,"end":2102.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2103.1622187500006,"end":2103.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2104.0565937500005,"end":2105.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2105.9128437500003,"end":2106.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2107.1278437500005,"end":2108.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2110.46909375,"end":2111.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2111.85284375,"end":2113.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2114.09721875,"end":2116.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2117.1178437500002,"end":2121.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2122.1465937500006,"end":2123.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2123.66534375,"end":2127.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2127.9178437500004,"end":2128.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2129.0147187500006,"end":2129.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2130.22971875,"end":2132.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2132.89596875,"end":2134.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2134.76909375,"end":2137.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2137.7897187500002,"end":2140.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2141.4684687500003,"end":2142.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2143.32471875,"end":2144.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2145.01221875,"end":2145.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2146.15971875,"end":2147.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2148.08346875,"end":2149.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2149.65284375,"end":2151.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2151.88034375,"end":2157.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2157.6347187500005,"end":2158.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2158.9678437500006,"end":2161.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2162.66346875,"end":2164.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2164.5703437500006,"end":2165.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2166.7809687500003,"end":2167.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2168.5528437500006,"end":2169.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2169.4472187500005,"end":2171.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2172.2147187500004,"end":2173.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2173.7840937500005,"end":2175.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2175.7078437500004,"end":2176.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2176.5009687500005,"end":2179.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2179.1503437500005,"end":2180.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2181.10784375,"end":2181.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2182.20471875,"end":2183.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2183.52096875,"end":2184.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2184.17909375,"end":2186.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2186.8115937500006,"end":2187.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2188.0603437500004,"end":2189.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2190.67596875,"end":2193.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2195.14784375,"end":2195.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2195.7215937500005,"end":2197.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2198.16846875,"end":2198.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2199.1640937500006,"end":2199.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2200.75034375,"end":2202.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2202.97784375,"end":2203.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2204.1590937500005,"end":2209.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2209.44096875,"end":2211.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2212.2928437500004,"end":2215.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2216.59596875,"end":2218.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2218.63784375,"end":2219.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2219.73471875,"end":2222.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2222.5865937500002,"end":2223.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2224.1728437500005,"end":2224.9490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2225.64096875,"end":2226.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2227.2272187500002,"end":2228.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2229.25221875,"end":2230.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2231.49659375,"end":2233.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2233.5047187500004,"end":2234.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2234.7872187500006,"end":2238.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2239.51221875,"end":2242.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2242.87034375,"end":2243.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2244.1022187500002,"end":2245.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2246.1609687500004,"end":2247.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2248.2197187500005,"end":2249.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2250.34596875,"end":2252.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2252.9109687500004,"end":2255.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2255.3915937500005,"end":2256.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2257.2647187500006,"end":2258.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2259.44159375,"end":2260.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2261.9053437500006,"end":2264.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2264.92596875,"end":2268.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2268.43596875,"end":2272.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2272.7390937500004,"end":2274.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2274.1903437500005,"end":2277.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2278.3415937500004,"end":2282.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2282.8134687500005,"end":2286.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2287.18409375,"end":2288.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2288.1122187500005,"end":2289.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2289.34409375,"end":2295.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2296.27971875,"end":2297.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2297.6972187500005,"end":2299.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2300.2959687500006,"end":2300.5828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2301.10596875,"end":2303.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2303.9578437500004,"end":2305.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2306.45534375,"end":2308.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2309.2059687500005,"end":2310.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2310.2353437500005,"end":2311.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2311.7878437500003,"end":2313.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2314.23471875,"end":2316.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2316.5465937500003,"end":2318.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2319.34784375,"end":2322.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2322.41909375,"end":2324.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2324.9840937500003,"end":2327.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2328.81471875,"end":2330.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2330.73846875,"end":2331.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2331.97034375,"end":2334.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2334.6872187500003,"end":2338.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2339.8678437500002,"end":2343.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2343.7322187500004,"end":2348.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2348.59221875,"end":2353.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2354.44784375,"end":2360.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2360.5059687500006,"end":2361.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2361.2822187500005,"end":2363.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2364.45471875,"end":2368.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2369.07846875,"end":2369.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2369.73659375,"end":2372.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2372.52096875,"end":2377.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2378.00534375,"end":2380.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2381.44784375,"end":2383.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2384.40096875,"end":2386.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2387.16846875,"end":2392.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2393.29409375,"end":2394.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2395.48784375,"end":2396.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2397.58034375,"end":2398.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2399.3522187500002,"end":2402.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2403.25034375,"end":2404.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2404.75221875,"end":2409.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2410.47284375,"end":2414.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2414.8603437500005,"end":2420.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2420.37846875,"end":2422.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2423.0447187500004,"end":2425.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2426.3690937500005,"end":2428.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2429.10284375,"end":2432.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2432.54534375,"end":2433.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2433.97971875,"end":2435.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2436.20721875,"end":2436.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2437.05096875,"end":2438.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2438.56971875,"end":2440.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2441.3034687500003,"end":2445.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2447.0915937500004,"end":2447.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2448.08721875,"end":2449.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2449.4372187500003,"end":2450.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2450.7197187500005,"end":2453.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2454.43221875,"end":2456.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2456.9297187500006,"end":2460.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2461.0303437500006,"end":2464.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2465.31659375,"end":2465.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2466.0759687500004,"end":2467.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2467.72971875,"end":2468.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2469.18096875,"end":2471.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2473.3659687500003,"end":2475.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2475.4922187500006,"end":2478.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2478.9178437500004,"end":2482.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2483.05221875,"end":2485.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2486.00534375,"end":2487.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2488.4522187500006,"end":2489.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2489.7178437500006,"end":2490.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2490.7303437500004,"end":2491.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2491.6922187500004,"end":2492.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2493.36284375,"end":2499.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2500.3828437500006,"end":2500.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2501.2265937500006,"end":2506.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2506.06971875,"end":2507.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2507.9765937500006,"end":2509.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2509.74846875,"end":2511.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2511.8240937500004,"end":2514.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2514.99659375,"end":2515.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2516.38034375,"end":2517.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2517.4772187500002,"end":2518.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2519.28284375,"end":2522.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2523.50159375,"end":2524.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2525.61096875,"end":2526.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2527.2478437500004,"end":2528.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2529.03659375,"end":2530.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2531.2809687500003,"end":2531.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2531.7703437500004,"end":2532.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2533.00221875,"end":2534.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2534.94284375,"end":2536.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2536.7653437500003,"end":2537.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2537.7440937500005,"end":2538.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2538.5878437500005,"end":2541.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2541.43971875,"end":2542.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2543.48159375,"end":2544.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2545.5234687500006,"end":2546.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2548.51034375,"end":2550.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2550.31596875,"end":2551.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2551.9528437500003,"end":2552.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2553.03284375,"end":2553.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2554.0115937500004,"end":2556.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2557.3359687500006,"end":2563.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2564.4909687500003,"end":2569.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2570.0934687500003,"end":2572.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2573.01284375,"end":2575.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2575.8984687500006,"end":2576.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2577.8053437500002,"end":2578.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2578.51409375,"end":2582.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2582.8340937500006,"end":2588.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2589.3815937500003,"end":2590.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2591.54159375,"end":2597.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2598.39284375,"end":2603.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2603.52284375,"end":2604.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2605.44659375,"end":2606.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2606.40846875,"end":2608.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2608.82159375,"end":2610.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2610.9647187500004,"end":2614.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2615.1159687500003,"end":2619.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2620.33034375,"end":2623.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2624.80221875,"end":2631.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2631.55221875,"end":2635.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2636.00721875,"end":2640.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2642.1834687500004,"end":2643.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2644.74846875,"end":2646.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2646.67221875,"end":2647.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2647.93784375,"end":2649.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2649.9628437500005,"end":2652.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2653.2197187500005,"end":2654.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2654.51909375,"end":2655.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2656.20659375,"end":2658.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2658.97409375,"end":2660.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2660.59409375,"end":2662.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2662.8047187500006,"end":2664.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2664.7284687500005,"end":2666.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2667.52971875,"end":2669.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2669.6053437500004,"end":2672.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2673.26721875,"end":2673.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2673.90846875,"end":2675.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2675.89971875,"end":2677.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2678.00909375,"end":2680.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2680.67534375,"end":2686.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2686.39596875,"end":2690.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2691.27284375,"end":2697.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2697.97221875,"end":2702.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2703.86159375,"end":2705.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2705.61659375,"end":2706.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2706.64596875,"end":2709.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2709.8522187500002,"end":2715.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2715.7247187500006,"end":2719.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2719.79159375,"end":2725.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2725.9509687500004,"end":2727.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2727.8747187500003,"end":2729.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2730.55784375,"end":2731.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2731.7897187500002,"end":2735.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2735.26596875,"end":2738.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2738.15159375,"end":2741.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2742.38721875,"end":2744.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2744.91846875,"end":2746.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2747.2472187500007,"end":2749.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2750.40284375,"end":2752.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2752.8328437500004,"end":2757.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2757.25409375,"end":2760.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2761.77659375,"end":2763.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2764.2403437500006,"end":2770.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2770.88909375,"end":2772.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2772.40784375,"end":2774.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2775.3272187500006,"end":2779.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2779.8834687500002,"end":2780.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2780.9297187500006,"end":2782.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2783.42721875,"end":2784.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2785.3678437500002,"end":2785.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2786.44784375,"end":2786.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2787.2409687500003,"end":2789.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2790.04221875,"end":2791.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2792.45534375,"end":2793.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2794.5478437500005,"end":2796.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2797.5009687500005,"end":2801.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2801.68596875,"end":2807.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2808.0984687500004,"end":2811.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2811.6084687500006,"end":2816.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2816.75534375,"end":2818.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2818.9490937500004,"end":2821.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2821.7840937500005,"end":2823.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2823.67409375,"end":2827.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2828.31471875,"end":2829.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2829.59721875,"end":2830.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2831.2003437500007,"end":2832.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2832.76971875,"end":2837.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2838.5240937500002,"end":2841.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2842.1015937500006,"end":2848.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2848.44659375,"end":2849.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2849.6953437500006,"end":2852.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2852.8678437500002,"end":2853.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2853.7284687500005,"end":2855.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2855.56784375,"end":2857.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2858.6222187500007,"end":2861.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2862.2165937500004,"end":2866.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2866.35096875,"end":2868.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2869.2028437500003,"end":2873.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2873.99534375,"end":2876.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2876.77971875,"end":2877.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2878.2647187500006,"end":2880.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2880.69471875,"end":2884.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2884.2890937500006,"end":2886.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2887.56284375,"end":2890.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2891.2247187500006,"end":2895.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2896.1522187500004,"end":2898.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2898.7340937500003,"end":2901.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2902.4972187500007,"end":2906.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2907.94784375,"end":2910.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2911.0528437500006,"end":2913.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2914.25909375,"end":2914.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2914.98471875,"end":2917.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2917.75221875,"end":2919.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2920.23284375,"end":2923.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2923.2197187500005,"end":2928.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2928.95721875,"end":2932.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2933.0915937500004,"end":2934.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2935.25159375,"end":2938.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2939.6053437500004,"end":2943.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2944.1953437500006,"end":2945.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2946.7940937500007,"end":2948.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2948.32971875,"end":2950.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2950.47284375,"end":2951.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2951.7722187500003,"end":2954.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2955.53534375,"end":2957.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2958.37034375,"end":2960.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2960.49659375,"end":2960.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2961.3572187500004,"end":2962.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2962.5553437500002,"end":2963.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2964.1415937500005,"end":2968.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2968.81596875,"end":2969.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2969.87909375,"end":2972.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2973.32159375,"end":2975.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2976.0047187500004,"end":2977.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2978.26596875,"end":2979.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2979.7003437500007,"end":2980.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2981.45534375,"end":2982.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2983.26096875,"end":2983.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2984.35784375,"end":2985.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2986.04534375,"end":2987.1084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2987.5134687500004,"end":2988.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2988.9647187500004,"end":2989.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2990.19659375,"end":2991.4453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2992.0528437500006,"end":2993.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2993.92596875,"end":2995.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2996.5753437500007,"end":2997.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2997.97596875,"end":3004.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3005.62034375,"end":3008.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3008.70846875,"end":3013.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3013.6022187500002,"end":3016.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3016.9265937500004,"end":3017.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3018.3272187500006,"end":3019.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3019.7109687500006,"end":3021.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3021.66846875,"end":3022.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3023.17034375,"end":3024.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3025.27971875,"end":3027.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3027.9628437500005,"end":3028.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3029.02596875,"end":3030.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3030.3084687500004,"end":3031.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3032.2997187500005,"end":3035.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3036.06284375,"end":3037.9190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3038.23971875,"end":3043.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3044.07846875,"end":3049.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3050.6090937500003,"end":3051.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3051.8240937500004,"end":3055.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3055.70534375,"end":3057.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3058.1690937500007,"end":3062.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3063.31596875,"end":3064.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3065.0372187500006,"end":3068.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3068.5134687500004,"end":3069.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3069.69471875,"end":3071.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3071.21346875,"end":3073.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3073.79534375,"end":3076.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3077.52471875,"end":3081.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3082.1990937500004,"end":3084.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3084.3590937500003,"end":3085.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3086.1815937500005,"end":3087.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3088.42596875,"end":3092.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3093.5222187500003,"end":3097.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3098.9559687500005,"end":3100.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3101.4197187500004,"end":3104.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3105.62159375,"end":3106.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3107.9503437500007,"end":3115.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3116.0165937500005,"end":3119.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3119.54346875,"end":3120.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3120.57284375,"end":3123.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3123.7790937500004,"end":3125.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3126.1415937500005,"end":3127.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3128.7909687500005,"end":3131.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3131.8115937500006,"end":3133.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3133.8028437500006,"end":3135.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3136.23284375,"end":3139.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3139.7090937500006,"end":3144.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3144.8053437500002,"end":3146.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3146.6278437500005,"end":3150.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3151.47096875,"end":3154.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3154.7615937500004,"end":3155.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3156.5672187500004,"end":3159.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3159.7059687500005,"end":3160.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3161.0390937500006,"end":3166.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3167.5359687500004,"end":3169.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3169.7128437500005,"end":3172.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3173.42534375,"end":3178.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3178.48784375,"end":3182.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3182.80784375,"end":3184.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3185.3897187500006,"end":3186.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3187.0772187500006,"end":3189.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3189.13596875,"end":3191.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3191.9540937500005,"end":3195.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3196.39221875,"end":3198.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3199.3115937500006,"end":3200.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3200.42534375,"end":3201.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3202.09596875,"end":3206.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3206.43284375,"end":3209.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3210.78659375,"end":3219.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3219.6290937500007,"end":3222.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3222.9365937500006,"end":3226.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3227.3240937500004,"end":3232.7072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3232.9772187500002,"end":3235.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3235.37346875,"end":3238.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3238.91721875,"end":3242.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3242.9334687500004,"end":3244.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3245.32971875,"end":3247.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3248.0128437500007,"end":3254.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3255.1172187500006,"end":3255.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3256.3153437500005,"end":3258.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3258.6778437500006,"end":3261.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3262.01909375,"end":3262.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3262.72784375,"end":3263.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3263.8415937500004,"end":3266.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3267.0984687500004,"end":3267.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3268.1278437500005,"end":3269.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3269.59596875,"end":3270.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3271.4353437500004,"end":3272.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3272.56596875,"end":3273.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3274.4728437500007,"end":3275.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3275.7722187500003,"end":3276.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3276.78471875,"end":3278.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3279.4509687500004,"end":3280.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3281.3240937500004,"end":3281.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3282.08346875,"end":3285.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3287.3484687500004,"end":3292.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3292.79909375,"end":3296.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3296.6803437500002,"end":3301.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3301.96221875,"end":3303.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3303.64971875,"end":3304.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3304.9997187500003,"end":3305.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3306.24846875,"end":3308.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3308.17221875,"end":3308.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3308.23971875,"end":3311.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3311.7159687500007,"end":3313.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3313.9772187500002,"end":3317.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3317.7234687500004,"end":3319.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3320.0859687500006,"end":3322.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3323.24159375,"end":3324.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3325.0134687500004,"end":3325.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3326.7178437500006,"end":3327.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3328.42221875,"end":3329.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3329.6709687500006,"end":3330.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3330.90284375,"end":3331.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3331.9659687500007,"end":3334.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3338.80034375,"end":3340.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3341.7872187500006,"end":3346.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3347.5753437500007,"end":3358.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3358.7128437500005,"end":3367.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3368.63534375,"end":3369.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3970.8028437500006,"end":3976.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3977.8565937500007,"end":3982.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3993.4490937500004,"end":3996.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3996.8409687500007,"end":4000.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3996.92534375,"end":3998.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4013.61471875,"end":4014.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4015.1334687500002,"end":4015.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4015.8590937500003,"end":4027.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4027.95846875,"end":4030.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4030.8272187500006,"end":4032.5822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4033.25721875,"end":4033.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4034.1515937500008,"end":4035.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4036.5309687500003,"end":4037.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4037.6953437500006,"end":4038.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4039.0622187500003,"end":4040.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4040.98596875,"end":4042.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4042.3190937500003,"end":4047.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4047.3984687500006,"end":4049.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4049.6259687500005,"end":4050.3009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4050.8409687500007,"end":4051.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4052.5284687500007,"end":4055.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4056.71346875,"end":4057.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4058.63721875,"end":4066.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4067.7497187500003,"end":4068.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4069.0153437500003,"end":4070.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4069.04909375,"end":4069.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4071.1247187500003,"end":4072.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4071.9347187500007,"end":4072.1709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4072.1709687500006,"end":4072.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4072.18784375,"end":4072.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4072.2890937500006,"end":4073.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4073.89221875,"end":4074.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4074.4997187500003,"end":4080.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4080.7940937500007,"end":4082.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4083.5447187500004,"end":4096.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4089.1134687500007,"end":4090.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4095.8634687500007,"end":4102.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4103.35596875,"end":4106.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4106.899718750001,"end":4108.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4108.04721875,"end":4109.987843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4110.1903437500005,"end":4110.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4110.966593749999,"end":4119.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4120.062218749999,"end":4124.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4125.15846875,"end":4128.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4129.107218749999,"end":4144.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4145.83034375,"end":4153.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4153.727843750001,"end":4156.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4157.102843750001,"end":4158.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4159.583468750001,"end":4161.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4161.591593749999,"end":4164.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4164.94971875,"end":4168.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4169.50596875,"end":4170.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4170.366593750001,"end":4177.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4180.03596875,"end":4188.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4187.8153437500005,"end":4188.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4188.96284375,"end":4188.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4188.979718750001,"end":4189.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4189.064093749999,"end":4189.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4189.99221875,"end":4193.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4193.45159375,"end":4193.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4193.87346875,"end":4199.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4199.6278437500005,"end":4207.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4207.74471875,"end":4207.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4207.89659375,"end":4216.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4217.1103437500005,"end":4220.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4220.58659375,"end":4225.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4225.27784375,"end":4225.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4226.02034375,"end":4227.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4227.99471875,"end":4230.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4230.6103437500005,"end":4232.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4233.1415937500005,"end":4238.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4239.030968749999,"end":4241.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4241.49471875,"end":4244.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4244.937218749999,"end":4248.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4248.85221875,"end":4253.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4254.5897187499995,"end":4260.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4259.280968749999,"end":4269.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4269.57471875,"end":4273.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4272.67971875,"end":4276.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4278.77159375,"end":4282.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4280.189093749999,"end":4286.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4282.80471875,"end":4283.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4284.81284375,"end":4285.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4285.8084687499995,"end":4286.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4286.34846875,"end":4286.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4287.29346875,"end":4290.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4291.765343749999,"end":4293.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4294.060343749999,"end":4295.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4296.30471875,"end":4298.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4298.54909375,"end":4318.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4318.765343749999,"end":4319.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4319.50784375,"end":4321.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4322.12346875,"end":4325.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4326.25784375,"end":4327.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4327.84409375,"end":4328.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4327.8778437500005,"end":4331.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4329.34596875,"end":4333.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4334.30721875,"end":4337.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4335.032843749999,"end":4335.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4337.530343750001,"end":4338.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4337.6990937499995,"end":4339.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4339.52159375,"end":4344.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4345.630343750001,"end":4350.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4349.12346875,"end":4357.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4355.02971875,"end":4359.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4360.159718749999,"end":4362.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4362.977843750001,"end":4364.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4364.63159375,"end":4367.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4368.15846875,"end":4369.019093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4369.66034375,"end":4371.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4371.82034375,"end":4379.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4379.44784375,"end":4383.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4383.7509687500005,"end":4384.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4385.50596875,"end":4386.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4387.04159375,"end":4390.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4391.64846875,"end":4393.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4394.095343749999,"end":4395.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4395.732218749999,"end":4396.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4396.862843749999,"end":4403.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4403.44409375,"end":4404.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4404.3553437499995,"end":4407.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4408.33784375,"end":4409.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4410.37971875,"end":4410.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4410.9872187500005,"end":4411.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4412.151593750001,"end":4415.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4415.83034375,"end":4419.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4416.85971875,"end":4419.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4420.47096875,"end":4420.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4420.97721875,"end":4425.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4425.280343750001,"end":4432.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4433.39721875,"end":4443.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4443.792218750001,"end":4447.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4447.52159375,"end":4450.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4450.592843750001,"end":4460.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4460.481593750001,"end":4460.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4460.49846875,"end":4460.565968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4460.58284375,"end":4462.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4461.15659375,"end":4461.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4462.75971875,"end":4463.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4463.620343750001,"end":4465.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4466.944718750001,"end":4468.159718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4473.374093750001,"end":4475.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4475.804093750001,"end":4476.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4477.592843750001,"end":4481.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4481.87909375,"end":4486.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4486.94159375,"end":4496.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4497.0497187500005,"end":4498.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4499.327843749999,"end":4501.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4501.2684687500005,"end":4501.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4502.60159375,"end":4505.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4507.259093750001,"end":4507.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4507.27596875,"end":4510.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4507.394093749999,"end":4508.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4509.655343750001,"end":4515.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4513.99221875,"end":4514.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4514.31284375,"end":4514.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4515.47721875,"end":4522.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4523.340968750001,"end":4526.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4527.1884687500005,"end":4531.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4532.40284375,"end":4539.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4539.25409375,"end":4542.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4543.05096875,"end":4543.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4544.77221875,"end":4545.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4545.61596875,"end":4555.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4556.517218749999,"end":4557.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4557.85034375,"end":4558.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4558.60971875,"end":4574.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4575.045968750001,"end":4575.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4576.1259687500005,"end":4584.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4585.491593750001,"end":4593.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4594.09784375,"end":4594.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4594.97534375,"end":4595.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4596.3084687499995,"end":4605.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4601.151593750001,"end":4601.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4606.5009687500005,"end":4618.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4618.2459687499995,"end":4625.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4624.60784375,"end":4629.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4626.885968750001,"end":4628.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4629.33284375,"end":4632.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4631.577218750001,"end":4635.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4634.564093749999,"end":4639.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4640.0653437500005,"end":4643.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4643.54159375,"end":4645.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4645.499093750001,"end":4648.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4648.958468750001,"end":4652.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4652.60346875,"end":4653.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4654.00409375,"end":4660.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4661.007218750001,"end":4662.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4662.829718749999,"end":4664.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4664.26409375,"end":4665.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4665.968468749999,"end":4668.128468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4668.80346875,"end":4680.784718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4681.05471875,"end":4683.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4683.16409375,"end":4688.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4688.429093750001,"end":4691.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4692.42846875,"end":4698.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4699.2459687499995,"end":4718.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4719.66471875,"end":4726.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4726.75221875,"end":4729.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4729.51971875,"end":4730.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4730.26221875,"end":4731.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4731.20721875,"end":4732.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4732.69221875,"end":4736.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4736.55659375,"end":4739.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4737.045968750001,"end":4737.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4737.653468750001,"end":4737.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4740.11721875,"end":4746.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4740.28596875,"end":4740.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4746.61409375,"end":4753.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4751.811593750001,"end":4752.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4754.07284375,"end":4758.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4759.05096875,"end":4770.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4761.05909375,"end":4761.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4770.9647187499995,"end":4772.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4772.83784375,"end":4774.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4774.03596875,"end":4778.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4778.30534375,"end":4801.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4778.49096875,"end":4778.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4802.014718750001,"end":4803.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4804.03971875,"end":4811.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4811.86971875,"end":4814.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4814.8397187499995,"end":4818.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4818.687218749999,"end":4822.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4822.46721875,"end":4824.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4825.04909375,"end":4829.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4829.419718749999,"end":4830.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4829.58846875,"end":4829.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4829.6053437499995,"end":4829.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4829.993468750001,"end":4830.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4830.0272187499995,"end":4830.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4830.82034375,"end":4830.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4830.9384687500005,"end":4831.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4831.967843750001,"end":4832.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4832.03534375,"end":4832.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4832.2040937500005,"end":4832.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4832.50784375,"end":4832.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4832.5584687499995,"end":4833.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4834.51596875,"end":4858.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4858.27596875,"end":4858.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4858.309718750001,"end":4858.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4858.579718749999,"end":4859.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4859.9803437499995,"end":4862.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4862.02221875,"end":4864.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4864.6884687500005,"end":4867.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4867.69221875,"end":4873.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4874.054093750001,"end":4875.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4875.876593749999,"end":4876.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4877.378468750001,"end":4879.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4879.47096875,"end":4882.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4882.93034375,"end":4884.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4884.651593750001,"end":4885.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4886.50784375,"end":4892.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4892.44784375,"end":4894.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4894.5740937499995,"end":4900.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4900.69971875,"end":4902.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4902.6572187500005,"end":4903.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4903.534718750001,"end":4904.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4904.41221875,"end":4905.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4906.42034375,"end":4907.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4908.61409375,"end":4909.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4909.491593750001,"end":4910.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4911.314093749999,"end":4911.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4911.972218750001,"end":4913.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4913.74409375,"end":4914.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4914.790343750001,"end":4915.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4916.1572187500005,"end":4918.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4918.671593749999,"end":4920.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4942.17846875,"end":4946.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4950.05909375,"end":4951.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4951.98284375,"end":4953.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4974.983468750001,"end":4975.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4975.00034375,"end":4977.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4978.4090937500005,"end":4980.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4989.647843750001,"end":4991.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4991.68971875,"end":5002.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5002.65846875,"end":5027.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5027.83596875,"end":5050.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5050.6678437499995,"end":5051.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5051.73096875,"end":5062.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5062.56471875,"end":5067.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5067.357218749999,"end":5072.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5073.179093750001,"end":5078.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5078.83221875,"end":5084.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5084.63721875,"end":5091.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5092.0115937499995,"end":5097.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5098.47471875,"end":5101.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5102.35596875,"end":5104.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5105.5790937500005,"end":5109.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5109.359093749999,"end":5115.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5116.530968749999,"end":5121.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5121.99846875,"end":5125.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5126.30159375,"end":5127.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5128.495343750001,"end":5130.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5131.00971875,"end":5133.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5134.6209687499995,"end":5136.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5137.32096875,"end":5141.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5143.24409375,"end":5144.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5145.11721875,"end":5145.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5145.94409375,"end":5147.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5147.91846875,"end":5148.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5149.167218750001,"end":5150.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5150.50034375,"end":5151.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5152.27221875,"end":5152.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5153.622218750001,"end":5155.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5155.967843750001,"end":5158.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5159.49471875,"end":5166.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5166.835343750001,"end":5169.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5170.14284375,"end":5173.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5174.564093749999,"end":5175.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5175.880343750001,"end":5179.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5179.79534375,"end":5184.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5184.975968750001,"end":5188.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5189.31284375,"end":5191.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5191.810343749999,"end":5196.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5198.7459687499995,"end":5207.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5203.08284375,"end":5204.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5205.3778437500005,"end":5205.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5206.778468750001,"end":5208.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5208.364718750001,"end":5222.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5222.624093750001,"end":5225.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5226.57284375,"end":5232.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5232.9853437500005,"end":5234.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5235.01034375,"end":5240.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5240.747843749999,"end":5247.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5247.885968750001,"end":5252.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5253.01596875,"end":5261.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5262.179093750001,"end":5263.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5263.61346875,"end":5264.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5264.64284375,"end":5265.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5266.212218750001,"end":5269.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5269.401593750001,"end":5273.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5273.82284375,"end":5281.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5282.192843750001,"end":5285.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5286.34409375,"end":5287.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5288.0653437500005,"end":5290.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5290.343468749999,"end":5290.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5291.153468750001,"end":5292.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5292.99284375,"end":5298.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5298.89909375,"end":5304.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5305.22721875,"end":5309.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5309.327843749999,"end":5311.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5312.02784375,"end":5322.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5323.637843750001,"end":5328.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5329.18971875,"end":5333.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5334.1678437499995,"end":5336.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5337.28971875,"end":5340.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5340.225968750001,"end":5342.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5342.58846875,"end":5344.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5345.288468750001,"end":5350.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5350.907843749999,"end":5351.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5352.76409375,"end":5354.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5354.8397187499995,"end":5362.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5362.80471875,"end":5366.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5367.20909375,"end":5369.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5370.415343750001,"end":5375.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5376.220343749999,"end":5376.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5377.030343750001,"end":5379.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5380.067843750001,"end":5384.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5385.029093749999,"end":5387.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5388.690968750001,"end":5392.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5393.247218750001,"end":5394.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5394.9178437499995,"end":5400.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5400.790343750001,"end":5402.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5403.05159375,"end":5405.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5406.15659375,"end":5408.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5408.58659375,"end":5409.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5409.784718750001,"end":5410.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5411.235968749999,"end":5412.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5412.6365937499995,"end":5413.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5413.497218750001,"end":5415.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5415.53909375,"end":5417.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5418.47534375,"end":5418.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5419.79159375,"end":5422.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5423.77409375,"end":5426.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5427.0478437500005,"end":5429.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5432.852843750001,"end":5444.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5434.540343750001,"end":5437.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5443.99034375,"end":5444.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5444.63159375,"end":5445.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5445.644093750001,"end":5447.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5447.68596875,"end":5450.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5450.9090937500005,"end":5452.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5453.0184687500005,"end":5457.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5458.536593750001,"end":5465.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5466.2147187499995,"end":5468.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5469.15096875,"end":5469.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5470.23096875,"end":5474.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5474.55096875,"end":5480.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5481.655343750001,"end":5481.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5482.296593749999,"end":5483.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5483.849093750001,"end":5485.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5486.16096875,"end":5490.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5491.020968750001,"end":5494.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5495.77971875,"end":5498.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5499.593468749999,"end":5501.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5501.9559687500005,"end":5505.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5505.887843750001,"end":5511.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5511.270968750001,"end":5516.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5516.40096875,"end":5517.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5518.71284375,"end":5535.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5535.80721875,"end":5549.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5550.0497187500005,"end":5554.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5555.26409375,"end":5558.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5559.550343750001,"end":5560.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5561.794718749999,"end":5566.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5567.4647187499995,"end":5570.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5570.55284375,"end":5571.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5571.784718750001,"end":5575.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5576.72909375,"end":5578.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5578.214093750001,"end":5581.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5581.6903437500005,"end":5590.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5591.44409375,"end":5593.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5593.823468750001,"end":5595.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5596.00034375,"end":5596.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5597.73846875,"end":5599.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5603.12159375,"end":5605.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5605.3153437500005,"end":5605.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5606.36159375,"end":5606.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5607.28971875,"end":5609.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5610.1415937500005,"end":5612.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5612.50409375,"end":5613.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5614.09034375,"end":5614.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5614.680968750001,"end":5617.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5618.477843750001,"end":5623.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5623.18596875,"end":5624.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5624.890343749999,"end":5625.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5625.61596875,"end":5627.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5627.92784375,"end":5629.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5629.88534375,"end":5632.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5633.513468749999,"end":5635.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5636.17971875,"end":5639.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5640.98909375,"end":5641.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5642.17034375,"end":5644.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5644.819718750001,"end":5645.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5646.33846875,"end":5647.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5647.874093750001,"end":5648.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5649.6122187500005,"end":5650.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5651.73846875,"end":5654.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5655.14721875,"end":5656.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5658.33659375,"end":5660.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5662.589093750001,"end":5672.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5672.849093750001,"end":5677.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5673.96284375,"end":5674.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5677.69221875,"end":5682.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5683.733468750001,"end":5685.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5685.640343749999,"end":5687.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5687.41221875,"end":5688.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5688.86346875,"end":5689.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5690.34846875,"end":5691.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5691.39471875,"end":5692.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5692.69409375,"end":5695.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5696.11971875,"end":5696.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5697.19971875,"end":5697.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5698.077218750001,"end":5701.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5702.329718749999,"end":5704.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5706.362843750001,"end":5706.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5706.734093749999,"end":5710.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5710.9697187500005,"end":5711.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5711.83034375,"end":5714.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5713.349093750001,"end":5714.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5714.02409375,"end":5714.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5714.12534375,"end":5714.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5714.479718750001,"end":5714.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5714.564093749999,"end":5714.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5714.59784375,"end":5721.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5722.14096875,"end":5725.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5722.37721875,"end":5722.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5724.72284375,"end":5735.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5735.64096875,"end":5739.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5740.450343750001,"end":5742.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5741.59784375,"end":5743.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5743.116593750001,"end":5747.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5747.63909375,"end":5748.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5749.7822187500005,"end":5750.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5749.98471875,"end":5752.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5753.342843750001,"end":5756.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5756.7684687500005,"end":5758.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5758.84409375,"end":5759.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5759.53596875,"end":5760.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5761.18971875,"end":5763.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5764.37909375,"end":5766.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5766.505343750001,"end":5767.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5768.63159375,"end":5769.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5769.94784375,"end":5770.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5770.6903437500005,"end":5771.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5771.247218750001,"end":5771.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5772.34409375,"end":5776.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5777.82846875,"end":5781.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5782.55346875,"end":5782.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5783.86971875,"end":5789.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5789.32034375,"end":5790.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5790.450968749999,"end":5794.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5795.07471875,"end":5796.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5796.67784375,"end":5797.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5798.21346875,"end":5801.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5802.90471875,"end":5805.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5806.262843750001,"end":5812.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5812.69221875,"end":5813.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5813.21534375,"end":5813.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5813.940968750001,"end":5814.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5815.00409375,"end":5816.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5816.72534375,"end":5817.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5817.417218750001,"end":5817.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5818.42971875,"end":5819.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5821.349093750001,"end":5824.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5825.010968750001,"end":5826.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5826.47909375,"end":5828.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5828.63909375,"end":5828.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5829.56721875,"end":5832.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5833.482218749999,"end":5841.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5841.43034375,"end":5842.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5843.26971875,"end":5850.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5851.065968750001,"end":5852.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5852.77034375,"end":5858.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5859.368468750001,"end":5859.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5860.161593750001,"end":5863.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5863.637843750001,"end":5865.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5866.304093750001,"end":5871.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5872.311593750001,"end":5877.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5878.4540937500005,"end":5879.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5880.225968750001,"end":5882.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5883.24659375,"end":5887.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5887.3134687500005,"end":5890.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5890.38471875,"end":5892.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5892.882218750001,"end":5893.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5923.341593749999,"end":5929.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5930.17596875,"end":5931.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5932.57221875,"end":5934.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5940.182843750001,"end":5943.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5943.57471875,"end":5944.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5944.60409375,"end":5945.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5945.903468750001,"end":5946.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5947.202843749999,"end":5948.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5948.890343749999,"end":5949.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5956.770968750001,"end":5957.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5957.564093750001,"end":5958.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5958.49221875,"end":5960.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5961.15846875,"end":5961.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5961.71534375,"end":5961.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5962.08659375,"end":5983.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5983.38284375,"end":5984.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5984.46284375,"end":6013.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6013.94346875,"end":6014.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6015.02346875,"end":6017.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6018.263468749999,"end":6019.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6019.83284375,"end":6022.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6023.07284375,"end":6024.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6025.536593750001,"end":6029.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6028.79346875,"end":6030.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6030.71721875,"end":6031.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6031.4090937500005,"end":6033.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6033.85596875,"end":6038.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6038.378468750001,"end":6042.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6043.255343750001,"end":6059.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6059.607218749999,"end":6070.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6071.16659375,"end":6072.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6072.735968750001,"end":6073.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6073.815968750001,"end":6074.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6075.33471875,"end":6080.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6080.07659375,"end":6082.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6082.28721875,"end":6088.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6088.66596875,"end":6090.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6091.112843750001,"end":6095.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6093.644093750001,"end":6142.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6108.038468750001,"end":6109.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6143.374718749999,"end":6143.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6144.690968750001,"end":6148.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6149.68596875,"end":6152.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6152.892218750001,"end":6156.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6155.5584687499995,"end":6161.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6156.638468749999,"end":6163.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6163.776593750001,"end":6168.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6168.9403437500005,"end":6169.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6169.88534375,"end":6172.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6173.1590937500005,"end":6180.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6180.921593749999,"end":6181.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6182.0184687500005,"end":6186.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6186.642218750001,"end":6198.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6198.48846875,"end":6201.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6201.036593750001,"end":6203.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6204.71534375,"end":6206.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6206.95971875,"end":6206.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6207.53346875,"end":6207.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6207.550343750001,"end":6210.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6210.95909375,"end":6213.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6211.499093750001,"end":6212.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6213.034718750001,"end":6213.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6214.857218749999,"end":6215.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6215.97096875,"end":6216.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6217.118468750001,"end":6221.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6221.4384687500005,"end":6222.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6221.69159375,"end":6222.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6222.95721875,"end":6222.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6222.974093750001,"end":6226.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6224.374718749999,"end":6225.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6226.956593750001,"end":6229.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6229.33596875,"end":6229.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6229.352843750001,"end":6233.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6229.97721875,"end":6235.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6235.967843750001,"end":6238.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6239.427218750001,"end":6244.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6244.37159375,"end":6277.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6278.661593750001,"end":6292.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6291.80721875,"end":6296.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6297.409718750001,"end":6303.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6304.497218750001,"end":6305.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6305.96534375,"end":6309.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6309.981593750001,"end":6313.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6313.55909375,"end":6317.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6317.25471875,"end":6317.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6318.35159375,"end":6318.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6319.499093750001,"end":6322.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6323.5322187500005,"end":6327.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6327.61596875,"end":6330.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6331.22721875,"end":6334.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6335.07471875,"end":6337.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6337.42034375,"end":6338.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6338.68596875,"end":6341.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6342.077843749999,"end":6345.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6345.2840937500005,"end":6348.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6348.827843749999,"end":6353.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6353.53596875,"end":6361.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6361.534718750001,"end":6368.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6369.34784375,"end":6371.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6372.19971875,"end":6374.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6375.01784375,"end":6378.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6378.49409375,"end":6379.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6379.8778437500005,"end":6389.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6385.159718750001,"end":6386.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6388.46721875,"end":6389.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6389.935343749999,"end":6393.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6393.19221875,"end":6398.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6398.153468750001,"end":6400.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6399.11534375,"end":6399.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6400.5497187500005,"end":6407.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6407.232218749999,"end":6415.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6414.741593750001,"end":6419.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6416.46284375,"end":6420.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6420.597218750001,"end":6422.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6422.92596875,"end":6424.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6424.47846875,"end":6428.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6429.6590937500005,"end":6432.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6432.561593750001,"end":6436.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6437.21909375,"end":6439.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6439.80096875,"end":6444.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6444.559718750001,"end":6448.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6448.964093750001,"end":6450.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6450.921593749999,"end":6454.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6454.78596875,"end":6455.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6456.405968749999,"end":6462.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6462.464093750001,"end":6467.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6467.44221875,"end":6482.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6482.68034375,"end":6504.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6504.972218750001,"end":6509.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6510.05159375,"end":6515.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6515.654093749999,"end":6517.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6517.729718750001,"end":6520.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6521.104718750001,"end":6521.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6521.7459687499995,"end":6522.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6522.8934687500005,"end":6529.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6529.6434687500005,"end":6534.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6534.43596875,"end":6535.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6535.43159375,"end":6537.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6537.52409375,"end":6539.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6540.173468750001,"end":6544.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6545.151593750001,"end":6546.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6547.00784375,"end":6547.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6548.610968750001,"end":6551.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6551.17596875,"end":6553.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6553.639718750001,"end":6556.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6557.622218750001,"end":6557.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6558.21284375,"end":6562.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6562.634093750001,"end":6568.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6568.52346875,"end":6572.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6573.48471875,"end":6573.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6575.003468750001,"end":6578.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6578.952218750001,"end":6580.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6580.4540937500005,"end":6581.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6582.29346875,"end":6583.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6583.94721875,"end":6587.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6588.30096875,"end":6588.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6589.09409375,"end":6598.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6596.890343749999,"end":6603.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6602.22284375,"end":6608.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6609.411593750001,"end":6612.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6612.9384687500005,"end":6616.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6616.7353437500005,"end":6619.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6619.41846875,"end":6621.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6621.696593750001,"end":6621.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6622.28721875,"end":6622.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6622.32096875,"end":6624.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6624.63284375,"end":6625.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6625.915343750001,"end":6630.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6630.420968750001,"end":6634.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6631.51784375,"end":6634.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6634.31909375,"end":6636.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6636.58034375,"end":6638.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6637.626593750001,"end":6647.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6647.12721875,"end":6648.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6648.76409375,"end":6652.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6652.628468750001,"end":6653.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6653.944718750001,"end":6655.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6655.22721875,"end":6657.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6657.38721875,"end":6664.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6657.505343750001,"end":6658.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6665.58846875,"end":6676.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6675.15659375,"end":6676.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6677.26596875,"end":6680.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6681.130343750001,"end":6686.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6686.64846875,"end":6687.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6686.800343750001,"end":6700.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6700.28346875,"end":6700.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6700.5028437500005,"end":6700.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6701.059718750001,"end":6704.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6701.36346875,"end":6701.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6702.10596875,"end":6702.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6704.02971875,"end":6708.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6707.151593750001,"end":6707.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6707.16846875,"end":6708.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6708.16409375,"end":6708.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6708.2147187499995,"end":6708.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6709.59846875,"end":6717.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6717.968468749999,"end":6719.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6720.499718749999,"end":6721.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6721.579718750001,"end":6722.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6722.8622187500005,"end":6723.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6723.081593750001,"end":6725.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6723.09846875,"end":6723.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6723.85784375,"end":6724.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6726.28784375,"end":6729.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6729.932843750001,"end":6732.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6732.649718750001,"end":6733.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6733.020968750001,"end":6737.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6737.54346875,"end":6739.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6739.264718750001,"end":6744.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6744.546593749999,"end":6749.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6750.4697187500005,"end":6752.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6751.65096875,"end":6752.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6752.798468750001,"end":6753.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6752.9334687499995,"end":6759.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6754.73909375,"end":6756.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6760.08846875,"end":6765.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6763.24409375,"end":6770.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6770.854718750001,"end":6775.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6771.749093750001,"end":6778.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6778.80284375,"end":6780.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6781.0809687500005,"end":6782.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6782.565968750001,"end":6784.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6785.249093750001,"end":6786.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6786.362843750001,"end":6798.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6798.090968750001,"end":6798.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6798.20909375,"end":6800.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6800.284718750001,"end":6807.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6802.51221875,"end":6805.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6806.30909375,"end":6808.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6807.25409375,"end":6810.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6811.55721875,"end":6812.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6813.885968750001,"end":6825.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6820.247843749999,"end":6832.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6832.904093749999,"end":6839.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6833.46096875,"end":6833.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6839.50221875,"end":6848.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6840.835343750001,"end":6842.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6844.767218750001,"end":6844.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6846.06659375,"end":6848.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6848.96909375,"end":6854.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6854.385968750001,"end":6858.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6859.212218750001,"end":6861.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6893.92409375,"end":6894.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6896.235968750001,"end":6897.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6901.80471875,"end":6902.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6905.26409375,"end":6909.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6911.08596875,"end":6911.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6914.35971875,"end":6923.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6925.210343750001,"end":6928.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6970.60409375,"end":6974.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6974.45159375,"end":6976.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6988.84596875,"end":6989.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6990.21284375,"end":6992.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6993.4022187499995,"end":6993.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6994.27971875,"end":6996.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6998.3465937500005,"end":7001.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7002.58221875,"end":7003.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7004.202218750001,"end":7005.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7006.66596875,"end":7009.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7009.97346875,"end":7013.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7013.618468750001,"end":7015.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7016.08221875,"end":7017.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7018.529093749999,"end":7019.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7019.811593750001,"end":7022.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7022.376593750001,"end":7024.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7025.22846875,"end":7025.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7027.1522187499995,"end":7028.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7028.282843750001,"end":7030.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7031.59034375,"end":7032.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7032.95721875,"end":7033.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7034.59409375,"end":7035.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7035.67409375,"end":7038.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7038.745343750001,"end":7042.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7042.727843750001,"end":7046.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7046.9803437499995,"end":7049.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7049.612843750001,"end":7050.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7051.38471875,"end":7054.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7054.89471875,"end":7055.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7056.464093750001,"end":7057.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7057.8309687500005,"end":7058.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7059.61971875,"end":7062.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7062.792218750001,"end":7064.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7064.83409375,"end":7065.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7066.99409375,"end":7068.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7068.749093750001,"end":7069.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7070.45346875,"end":7070.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7072.22534375,"end":7073.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7074.53721875,"end":7077.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7077.72659375,"end":7080.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7080.57846875,"end":7081.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7081.74284375,"end":7083.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7084.814093750001,"end":7086.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7086.67034375,"end":7087.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7088.661593750001,"end":7089.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7089.96096875,"end":7090.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7091.17596875,"end":7092.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7092.795968750001,"end":7093.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7094.196593750001,"end":7095.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7095.63096875,"end":7096.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7096.79534375,"end":7098.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7099.37721875,"end":7100.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7100.811593750001,"end":7102.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7101.06471875,"end":7108.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7108.60784375,"end":7109.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7109.95784375,"end":7110.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7110.599093750001,"end":7110.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7110.66659375,"end":7113.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7110.970343750001,"end":7111.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7111.32471875,"end":7111.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7111.61159375,"end":7111.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7113.029093749999,"end":7116.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7113.16409375,"end":7113.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7114.109093750001,"end":7114.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7114.5478437500005,"end":7114.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7116.876593750001,"end":7119.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7120.09971875,"end":7123.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7123.13721875,"end":7125.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7126.309718750001,"end":7126.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7128.0478437500005,"end":7128.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7129.98846875,"end":7132.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7132.60409375,"end":7137.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7137.5653437500005,"end":7145.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7145.12534375,"end":7151.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7152.128468750001,"end":7155.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7156.7353437500005,"end":7159.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7161.831593750001,"end":7167.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7168.024718750001,"end":7168.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7169.64471875,"end":7173.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7173.49221875,"end":7173.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7174.36971875,"end":7176.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7176.782843750001,"end":7177.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7178.11596875,"end":7179.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7180.88346875,"end":7184.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7185.70971875,"end":7187.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7188.595343750001,"end":7189.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7191.2615937499995,"end":7191.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7192.8309687500005,"end":7194.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7195.4803437499995,"end":7195.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7196.526593750001,"end":7200.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7201.4540937500005,"end":7204.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7205.36909375,"end":7209.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7209.85784375,"end":7211.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7212.372218750001,"end":7213.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7214.21159375,"end":7215.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7215.49409375,"end":7216.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7217.333468750001,"end":7219.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7219.9490937499995,"end":7221.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7221.9403437500005,"end":7224.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7225.450343750001,"end":7226.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7226.850968750001,"end":7227.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7228.589093750001,"end":7229.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7230.968468750001,"end":7232.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7233.229718750001,"end":7235.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7237.56659375,"end":7238.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7240.33409375,"end":7243.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7243.89471875,"end":7247.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7247.69159375,"end":7248.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7248.58596875,"end":7248.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7249.024718750001,"end":7249.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7250.999093750001,"end":7253.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7254.222218750001,"end":7255.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7255.42034375,"end":7263.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7264.448468750001,"end":7264.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7265.02221875,"end":7272.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7267.587218750001,"end":7268.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7269.02159375,"end":7269.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7272.548468750001,"end":7272.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7273.74659375,"end":7273.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7273.763468749999,"end":7281.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7276.61534375,"end":7276.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7276.9697187500005,"end":7278.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7281.28971875,"end":7281.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7281.458468750001,"end":7282.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7282.89284375,"end":7287.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7287.34784375,"end":7287.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7287.600968750001,"end":7288.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7289.67659375,"end":7295.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7296.139718750001,"end":7305.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7305.555968750001,"end":7310.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7310.010968750001,"end":7313.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7314.0272187499995,"end":7314.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7314.58409375,"end":7321.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7315.545968750001,"end":7316.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7322.279093749999,"end":7326.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7323.86534375,"end":7326.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7326.58221875,"end":7328.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7326.90284375,"end":7331.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7332.06659375,"end":7337.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7335.171593750001,"end":7335.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7336.74096875,"end":7343.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7341.29721875,"end":7342.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7343.27159375,"end":7343.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7343.895968750001,"end":7343.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7343.946593750001,"end":7346.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7344.53721875,"end":7345.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7345.026593750001,"end":7345.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7345.347218750001,"end":7345.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7346.055968750001,"end":7346.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7346.20784375,"end":7347.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7346.477843750001,"end":7346.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7346.528468750001,"end":7353.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7347.135968750001,"end":7348.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7348.57034375,"end":7348.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7353.936593750001,"end":7367.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7360.484093750001,"end":7362.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7363.13346875,"end":7364.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7368.39846875,"end":7369.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7370.08596875,"end":7371.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7371.182843750001,"end":7376.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7376.41409375,"end":7381.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7381.61159375,"end":7381.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7381.64534375,"end":7386.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7381.729718750001,"end":7382.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7387.349093750001,"end":7388.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7389.087218750001,"end":7393.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7393.42409375,"end":7398.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7399.27971875,"end":7400.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7400.747843749999,"end":7407.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7407.66659375,"end":7411.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7411.09221875,"end":7411.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7411.19346875,"end":7411.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7411.46346875,"end":7411.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7411.56471875,"end":7411.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7411.7840937500005,"end":7411.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7411.919093750001,"end":7414.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7414.028468750001,"end":7417.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7418.34846875,"end":7420.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7420.55909375,"end":7421.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7421.9090937500005,"end":7422.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7423.69784375,"end":7424.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7424.811593750001,"end":7426.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7427.427218750001,"end":7428.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7429.18221875,"end":7430.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7430.717843750001,"end":7431.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7433.198468750001,"end":7439.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7435.493468750001,"end":7435.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7435.51034375,"end":7435.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7435.56096875,"end":7435.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7435.679093750001,"end":7435.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7435.69596875,"end":7435.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7435.915343750001,"end":7437.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7437.2822187500005,"end":7437.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7437.90659375,"end":7438.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7439.560343749999,"end":7441.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7441.821593750001,"end":7446.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7446.58034375,"end":7449.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7450.073468750001,"end":7461.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7454.376593750001,"end":7454.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7454.3934687500005,"end":7455.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7455.034718750001,"end":7462.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7462.98284375,"end":7466.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7466.239718750001,"end":7466.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7466.999093750001,"end":7476.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7471.74096875,"end":7473.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7473.968468750001,"end":7473.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7477.1747187500005,"end":7483.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7478.187218750001,"end":7479.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7479.2840937500005,"end":7479.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7483.6209687499995,"end":7485.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7485.81471875,"end":7487.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7488.278468750001,"end":7489.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7490.235968750001,"end":7491.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7492.66596875,"end":7492.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7492.69971875,"end":7492.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7492.80096875,"end":7492.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7492.93596875,"end":7493.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7493.03721875,"end":7493.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7493.44221875,"end":7493.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7493.560343749999,"end":7494.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7494.4715937500005,"end":7502.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7502.858468750001,"end":7503.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7504.545968750001,"end":7506.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7506.503468750001,"end":7509.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7509.72659375,"end":7512.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7512.42659375,"end":7513.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7512.561593750001,"end":7513.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7513.37159375,"end":7514.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7514.0634687500005,"end":7515.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7514.232218749999,"end":7514.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7515.413468750001,"end":7515.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7516.307843750001,"end":7517.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7517.6747187500005,"end":7519.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7520.661593750001,"end":7527.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7526.1122187500005,"end":7527.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7527.4959687499995,"end":7532.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7527.9853437500005,"end":7528.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7529.014718750001,"end":7530.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7532.794718749999,"end":7533.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7534.27971875,"end":7536.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7537.435343749999,"end":7540.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7540.776593750001,"end":7542.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7542.970343750001,"end":7544.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7544.472218750001,"end":7547.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7548.184718750001,"end":7549.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7550.26034375,"end":7552.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7552.437218750001,"end":7554.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7554.61409375,"end":7555.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7555.60971875,"end":7556.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7556.858468750001,"end":7557.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7559.423468750001,"end":7559.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7559.474093750001,"end":7562.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7562.49471875,"end":7572.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7572.2147187499995,"end":7585.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7581.58034375,"end":7587.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7587.62159375,"end":7589.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7590.25409375,"end":7591.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7592.093468750001,"end":7595.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7595.856593750001,"end":7596.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7597.4090937500005,"end":7598.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7599.130343750001,"end":7600.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7600.14284375,"end":7601.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7602.52221875,"end":7603.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7606.65659375,"end":7607.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7607.78721875,"end":7608.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7609.170968750001,"end":7609.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7610.77409375,"end":7613.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7614.554093750001,"end":7616.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7616.78159375,"end":7619.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7619.194718750001,"end":7621.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7623.042218750001,"end":7624.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7625.7928437499995,"end":7626.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7626.889718750001,"end":7629.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7631.007218750001,"end":7632.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7633.251593750001,"end":7634.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7636.305968750001,"end":7636.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7637.87534375,"end":7640.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7641.62159375,"end":7642.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7642.78596875,"end":7644.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7642.98846875,"end":7644.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7644.405968750001,"end":7644.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7644.4228437500005,"end":7646.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7645.485968750001,"end":7645.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7645.57034375,"end":7645.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7646.093468750001,"end":7647.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7646.22846875,"end":7647.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7647.76409375,"end":7648.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7647.780968750001,"end":7647.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7648.89471875,"end":7650.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7649.58659375,"end":7650.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7650.700343750001,"end":7651.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7652.286593750001,"end":7654.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7652.74221875,"end":7653.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7653.53534375,"end":7657.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7657.3153437500005,"end":7657.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7657.33221875,"end":7657.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7657.349093750001,"end":7657.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7657.7372187500005,"end":7662.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7657.99034375,"end":7658.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7662.597218750001,"end":7662.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7662.95159375,"end":7662.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7662.968468750001,"end":7667.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7667.82846875,"end":7670.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7671.43971875,"end":7672.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7673.86971875,"end":7677.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7678.493468750001,"end":7683.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7684.484093750001,"end":7686.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7686.458468750001,"end":7689.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7690.45784375,"end":7691.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7691.92596875,"end":7691.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7691.942843750001,"end":7691.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7692.24659375,"end":7692.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7692.29721875,"end":7695.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7695.53721875,"end":7697.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7698.743468750001,"end":7707.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7699.1990937499995,"end":7700.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7707.40034375,"end":7707.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7707.58596875,"end":7709.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7707.75471875,"end":7707.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7709.59409375,"end":7710.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7710.454718750001,"end":7712.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7713.25596875,"end":7719.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7714.3865937499995,"end":7717.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7717.862843750001,"end":7719.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7719.263468749999,"end":7719.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7720.022843750001,"end":7724.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7720.83284375,"end":7724.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7724.325968749999,"end":7725.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7726.84034375,"end":7730.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7730.55284375,"end":7733.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7730.60346875,"end":7732.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7732.544093750001,"end":7736.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7733.97846875,"end":7742.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7736.67846875,"end":7736.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7741.825343750001,"end":7742.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7742.97284375,"end":7744.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7744.862843750001,"end":7751.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7749.25034375,"end":7749.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7751.96721875,"end":7756.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7754.21159375,"end":7755.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7756.0340937500005,"end":7757.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7756.169093750001,"end":7756.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7757.046593750001,"end":7758.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7758.970343750001,"end":7761.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7762.530968750001,"end":7763.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7762.817843750001,"end":7764.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7763.59409375,"end":7765.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7765.770968750001,"end":7765.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7765.821593750001,"end":7765.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7765.93971875,"end":7772.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7765.956593750001,"end":7767.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7772.95971875,"end":7773.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7773.128468750001,"end":7773.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7774.022843750001,"end":7775.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7775.03534375,"end":7783.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7776.452843750001,"end":7776.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7784.45159375,"end":7785.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7785.599093750001,"end":7786.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7787.944718750001,"end":7789.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7790.762843750001,"end":7791.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7793.108468750001,"end":7793.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7794.39096875,"end":7796.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7797.175343750001,"end":7799.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7799.520968750001,"end":7802.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7802.710343750001,"end":7805.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7805.78159375,"end":7808.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7809.02159375,"end":7810.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7810.405343750001,"end":7812.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7810.79346875,"end":7811.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7812.39659375,"end":7812.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7812.734093750001,"end":7815.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7816.51409375,"end":7816.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7816.5478437500005,"end":7822.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7817.44221875,"end":7818.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7823.16284375,"end":7824.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7825.47471875,"end":7827.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7826.099093750001,"end":7826.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7828.27596875,"end":7830.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7831.060343749999,"end":7834.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7832.9334687499995,"end":7833.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7835.481593750001,"end":7836.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7835.802218750001,"end":7837.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7837.304093750001,"end":7840.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7838.55284375,"end":7839.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7839.227843750001,"end":7840.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7840.915343750001,"end":7840.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7840.93221875,"end":7840.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7840.9490937499995,"end":7841.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7842.67034375,"end":7844.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7845.75846875,"end":7848.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7849.23471875,"end":7852.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7852.74471875,"end":7854.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7854.98909375,"end":7855.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7856.22096875,"end":7857.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7858.077218750001,"end":7858.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7858.78596875,"end":7860.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7861.401593750001,"end":7869.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7869.72096875,"end":7879.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7870.41284375,"end":7875.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7877.44971875,"end":7878.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7879.575968749999,"end":7881.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7882.09034375,"end":7883.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7884.25034375,"end":7884.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7884.8240937499995,"end":7886.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7886.83221875,"end":7888.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7889.194718750001,"end":7891.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7917.747218750001,"end":7918.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7920.514718750001,"end":7921.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7921.84784375,"end":7926.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7933.89659375,"end":7934.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7935.43221875,"end":7937.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7937.32221875,"end":7939.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7960.87971875,"end":7962.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7962.34784375,"end":7966.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7967.02221875,"end":7968.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7975.98284375,"end":7976.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7976.657843750001,"end":7977.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7978.159718750001,"end":7983.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7984.31909375,"end":7992.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7992.33471875,"end":7994.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7994.83221875,"end":7996.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7998.038468750001,"end":8001.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8001.63284375,"end":8007.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8007.977843750001,"end":8011.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8012.145968750001,"end":8013.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8014.390343750001,"end":8015.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8015.757218750001,"end":8017.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8018.11971875,"end":8018.372843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8018.524718750001,"end":8019.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8019.48659375,"end":8022.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8022.8447187500005,"end":8023.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8023.94159375,"end":8027.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8028.61596875,"end":8028.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8028.95346875,"end":8030.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8030.92784375,"end":8035.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8035.56846875,"end":8037.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8038.23471875,"end":8039.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8040.47909375,"end":8045.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8045.946593750001,"end":8051.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8052.089093750001,"end":8058.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8059.37909375,"end":8072.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8072.35596875,"end":8074.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8074.88721875,"end":8077.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8077.637843750001,"end":8082.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8082.970343750001,"end":8085.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8086.024718750001,"end":8087.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8087.67846875,"end":8089.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8090.091593750001,"end":8090.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8090.96909375,"end":8093.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8093.432843750001,"end":8094.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8094.462218750001,"end":8097.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8097.972218750001,"end":8103.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8103.692843750001,"end":8110.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8111.35409375,"end":8112.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8113.42971875,"end":8114.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8115.319718750001,"end":8115.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8116.669718750001,"end":8118.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8119.217843750001,"end":8120.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8121.512843750001,"end":8127.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8127.67221875,"end":8128.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8128.51596875,"end":8132.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8133.780968750001,"end":8134.388468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8135.249093750001,"end":8135.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8136.362843750001,"end":8139.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8140.109093750001,"end":8140.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8141.999093750001,"end":8147.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8148.833468750001,"end":8150.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8151.0272187499995,"end":8153.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8154.0478437500005,"end":8154.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8154.267218750001,"end":8155.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8155.09409375,"end":8158.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8160.05534375,"end":8168.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8168.762843750001,"end":8170.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8170.36596875,"end":8172.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8173.31909375,"end":8176.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8176.28909375,"end":8177.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8177.993468750001,"end":8180.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8181.80721875,"end":8182.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8182.98846875,"end":8184.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8185.249718750001,"end":8186.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8187.62909375,"end":8192.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8193.164093750001,"end":8194.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8194.78409375,"end":8196.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8197.281593750002,"end":8205.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8205.617843750002,"end":8208.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8208.942218750002,"end":8211.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8212.300343750001,"end":8213.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8214.03846875,"end":8214.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8214.747218750003,"end":8215.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8216.519093750001,"end":8217.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8217.66659375,"end":8220.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8221.379093750002,"end":8224.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8224.56846875,"end":8226.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8226.441593750002,"end":8231.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8231.31846875,"end":8233.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8233.44471875,"end":8235.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8235.65534375,"end":8237.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8237.37659375,"end":8242.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8242.48971875,"end":8247.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8247.02909375,"end":8250.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8250.387218750002,"end":8254.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8254.555343750002,"end":8260.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8261.47409375,"end":8266.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8267.414093750001,"end":8270.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8270.957843750002,"end":8274.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8274.56909375,"end":8276.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8277.285968750002,"end":8282.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8283.192218750002,"end":8284.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8285.06534375,"end":8285.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8285.75721875,"end":8286.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8287.039718750002,"end":8288.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8288.946593749999,"end":8289.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8290.22909375,"end":8291.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8292.372218750003,"end":8293.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8292.43971875,"end":8300.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8301.231593750003,"end":8304.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8304.488468750002,"end":8322.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8305.09596875,"end":8305.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8322.730343750001,"end":8327.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8328.07971875,"end":8330.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8328.14721875,"end":8328.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8329.750343750002,"end":8338.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8338.187843750002,"end":8340.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8340.297218750002,"end":8340.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8340.33096875,"end":8341.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8341.461593750002,"end":8342.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8343.402218750001,"end":8347.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8347.519718750002,"end":8354.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8354.35409375,"end":8355.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8356.649093750002,"end":8357.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8357.695343750001,"end":8360.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8361.171593750001,"end":8362.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8363.14596875,"end":8364.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8364.917843750001,"end":8367.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8367.31409375,"end":8367.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8368.22534375,"end":8369.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8370.21659375,"end":8372.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8373.64221875,"end":8375.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8377.23659375,"end":8378.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8378.856593750003,"end":8388.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8389.757843750001,"end":8391.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8391.10784375,"end":8404.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8403.207218750002,"end":8409.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8409.14721875,"end":8436.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8436.265343750001,"end":8463.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8439.387218750002,"end":8439.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8463.67034375,"end":8464.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8465.08784375,"end":8469.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8470.84221875,"end":8481.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8481.473468750002,"end":8487.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8487.86909375,"end":8488.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8488.172843750002,"end":8491.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8492.324093750001,"end":8493.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8494.09596875,"end":8497.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8498.73659375,"end":8499.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8499.765968750002,"end":8500.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8501.74034375,"end":8502.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8502.887843750003,"end":8503.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8504.305343750002,"end":8505.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8505.73971875,"end":8511.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8511.156593750002,"end":8515.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8516.08409375,"end":8519.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8519.492843750002,"end":8521.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8521.61909375,"end":8525.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8526.20909375,"end":8532.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8532.58784375,"end":8534.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8534.71409375,"end":8536.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8537.582843750002,"end":8538.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8538.91596875,"end":8539.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8539.793468750002,"end":8541.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8542.965968750003,"end":8545.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8546.15534375,"end":8549.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8549.63159375,"end":8552.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8552.85471875,"end":8555.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8555.504093750002,"end":8556.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8556.95534375,"end":8558.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8558.777843750002,"end":8560.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8560.81971875,"end":8563.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8563.08096875,"end":8564.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8565.49409375,"end":8566.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8566.472843750002,"end":8568.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8567.097218750001,"end":8569.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8569.72971875,"end":8573.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8571.97409375,"end":8574.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8574.74159375,"end":8575.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8575.77096875,"end":8581.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8582.402843750002,"end":8585.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8585.71034375,"end":8586.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8587.43159375,"end":8588.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8589.405968750001,"end":8593.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8593.82721875,"end":8599.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8600.324093750001,"end":8601.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8602.31534375,"end":8603.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8603.41221875,"end":8604.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8605.42034375,"end":8615.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8615.832218750002,"end":8616.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8616.91221875,"end":8618.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8619.17346875,"end":8621.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8622.278468750003,"end":8624.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8624.97846875,"end":8630.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8631.644093750001,"end":8631.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8631.69471875,"end":8650.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8631.72846875,"end":8631.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8631.964718750001,"end":8632.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8651.050343750001,"end":8651.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8651.067218750002,"end":8651.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8651.08409375,"end":8651.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8651.320343750001,"end":8651.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8651.35409375,"end":8651.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8651.370968750001,"end":8653.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8654.20596875,"end":8656.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8657.47971875,"end":8657.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8657.766593750002,"end":8658.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8658.72846875,"end":8659.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8659.20096875,"end":8667.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8668.43159375,"end":8669.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8670.152843750002,"end":8674.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8675.519093750001,"end":8677.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8677.746593750002,"end":8678.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8679.434093750002,"end":8680.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8681.324093750001,"end":8681.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8681.644718750002,"end":8683.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8684.648468750001,"end":8688.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8688.765968750002,"end":8694.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8695.887218750002,"end":8697.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8697.65909375,"end":8700.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8700.747218750003,"end":8701.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8701.01721875,"end":8701.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8701.18596875,"end":8701.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8701.202843750001,"end":8702.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8703.61596875,"end":8705.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8707.29471875,"end":8711.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8712.05346875,"end":8714.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8714.80409375,"end":8715.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8716.305968750003,"end":8719.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8720.47409375,"end":8728.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8728.422218750002,"end":8730.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8730.83534375,"end":8731.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8732.320343750001,"end":8734.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8735.61096875,"end":8737.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8738.024093750002,"end":8742.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8742.715343750002,"end":8744.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8744.655968750001,"end":8745.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8745.668468750002,"end":8748.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8748.520343750002,"end":8754.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8754.88221875,"end":8756.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8756.384093750003,"end":8760.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8761.34534375,"end":8767.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8767.58909375,"end":8770.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8770.69409375,"end":8775.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8775.95909375,"end":8793.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8785.527218750001,"end":8785.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8785.56096875,"end":8785.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8793.930968750003,"end":8797.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8798.04846875,"end":8802.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8802.874718750001,"end":8809.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8809.48971875,"end":8812.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8812.577843750001,"end":8823.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8823.985343750002,"end":8839.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8839.172843750002,"end":8839.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8840.28659375,"end":8864.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8840.337218750003,"end":8840.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8846.327843750001,"end":8846.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8846.344718750002,"end":8846.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8864.75534375,"end":8865.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8866.071593750003,"end":8870.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8869.868468750003,"end":8871.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8871.47159375,"end":8873.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8873.53034375,"end":8880.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8875.67346875,"end":8875.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8875.774718750003,"end":8875.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8888.684093750002,"end":8891.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8896.109093750001,"end":8897.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9532.465343750002,"end":9536.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9547.31534375,"end":9548.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9548.83409375,"end":9549.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9550.015343750001,"end":9551.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9560.680343750002,"end":9561.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9561.574718750002,"end":9562.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9562.739093750002,"end":9566.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9567.227843750003,"end":9572.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9572.847218750001,"end":9573.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9573.08346875,"end":9608.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9608.774093750002,"end":9615.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9616.739093750002,"end":9618.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9617.042843750001,"end":9617.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9618.61221875,"end":9622.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9622.155968750001,"end":9622.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9622.172843750002,"end":9638.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9638.305343750002,"end":9665.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9666.18284375,"end":9671.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9672.156593750002,"end":9697.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9697.13159375,"end":9702.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9702.700343750003,"end":9705.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9705.55221875,"end":9706.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9707.020343750002,"end":9711.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9711.37409375,"end":9733.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9733.73346875,"end":9734.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9734.712218750003,"end":9753.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9753.578468750002,"end":9755.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9756.49784375,"end":9759.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9759.97409375,"end":9813.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9813.19784375,"end":9817.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9817.399718750003,"end":9838.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9838.425968750002,"end":9874.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9874.52159375,"end":9878.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9879.550343750001,"end":9879.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9880.461593750002,"end":9881.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9881.96346875,"end":9883.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9885.844718750002,"end":9895.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9891.81846875,"end":9893.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9896.425343750001,"end":9899.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9897.30284375,"end":9909.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9901.99409375,"end":9902.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9907.00596875,"end":9914.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9914.49846875,"end":9925.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9914.633468750002,"end":9915.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9925.602218750002,"end":9932.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9932.58846875,"end":9946.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9945.49784375,"end":9973.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9973.746593750002,"end":9975.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9973.76346875,"end":9974.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9975.687218750001,"end":9982.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9981.087218750003,"end":9994.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9994.249718750001,"end":9994.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9995.430968750003,"end":10005.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10006.24784375,"end":10008.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10008.711593750002,"end":10010.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10010.027843750002,"end":10010.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10011.05721875,"end":10011.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10011.47909375,"end":10017.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10017.65534375,"end":10020.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10020.726593750001,"end":10021.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10021.55346875,"end":10022.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10022.515343750001,"end":10023.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10023.797843750002,"end":10026.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10026.49784375,"end":10028.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10028.539718750002,"end":10035.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10033.77096875,"end":10055.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10056.40034375,"end":10056.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10056.805343750002,"end":10068.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10068.36471875,"end":10074.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10075.249718750001,"end":10088.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10088.47971875,"end":10088.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10090.133468750002,"end":10090.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10090.16721875,"end":10090.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10090.84221875,"end":10090.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10091.26409375,"end":10092.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10092.765968750002,"end":10094.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10094.402843750002,"end":10097.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10098.63846875,"end":10099.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10099.75221875,"end":10105.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10105.48971875,"end":10111.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10111.39596875,"end":10116.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10115.817218750002,"end":10132.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10132.28721875,"end":10133.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10133.839718750001,"end":10138.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10135.577843750001,"end":10135.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10138.29471875,"end":10138.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10138.31159375,"end":10142.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10142.26034375,"end":10146.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10146.597218750001,"end":10150.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10149.48284375,"end":10169.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10151.76096875,"end":10151.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10152.28409375,"end":10152.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10165.76721875,"end":10169.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10169.41221875,"end":10169.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10169.83409375,"end":10169.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10170.15471875,"end":10170.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10170.69471875,"end":10171.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10171.94346875,"end":10174.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10174.609718750002,"end":10175.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10176.297218750002,"end":10176.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10177.731593750003,"end":10179.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10179.85784375,"end":10192.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10192.800968750002,"end":10195.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10195.46721875,"end":10213.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10213.65846875,"end":10220.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10220.83034375,"end":10233.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10233.030968750001,"end":10244.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10244.23596875,"end":10246.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10246.598468750002,"end":10247.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10248.50534375,"end":10252.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10252.133468750002,"end":10255.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10253.93909375,"end":10256.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10256.976593750001,"end":10260.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10261.75221875,"end":10262.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10262.039093750001,"end":10272.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10263.50721875,"end":10264.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10272.113468750002,"end":10275.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10275.977843750003,"end":10278.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10278.914093750001,"end":10279.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10279.504718750002,"end":10288.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10288.07721875,"end":10297.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10297.544093750003,"end":10319.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10319.464718750001,"end":10321.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10322.063468750002,"end":10323.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10324.172843750002,"end":10326.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10326.45096875,"end":10327.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10327.83471875,"end":10328.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10329.08346875,"end":10330.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10330.93971875,"end":10332.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10332.964718750001,"end":10333.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10333.437218750001,"end":10333.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10333.977218750002,"end":10344.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10344.70971875,"end":10376.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10377.801593750002,"end":10381.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10382.05409375,"end":10384.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10384.011593750001,"end":10384.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10384.551593750002,"end":10387.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10387.437218750001,"end":10388.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10388.331593750001,"end":10391.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10392.550343750001,"end":10393.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10394.42346875,"end":10396.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10396.53284375,"end":10404.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10404.86909375,"end":10409.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10408.919093750003,"end":10419.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10419.921593750001,"end":10424.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10420.191593750002,"end":10424.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10425.726593750001,"end":10427.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10427.81909375,"end":10433.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10433.99534375,"end":10439.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10439.00721875,"end":10439.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10439.024093750002,"end":10439.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10439.09159375,"end":10439.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10439.226593750001,"end":10439.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10439.445968750002,"end":10449.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10449.97596875,"end":10457.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10457.75534375,"end":10459.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10459.425968750002,"end":10460.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10461.78846875,"end":10463.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10466.867843750002,"end":10470.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10473.347843750002,"end":10476.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10492.63596875,"end":10497.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10497.563468750002,"end":10500.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10508.70096875,"end":10510.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10511.046593750001,"end":10516.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10516.395968750003,"end":10519.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10519.956593750001,"end":10525.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10525.96409375,"end":10528.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10528.630343750003,"end":10529.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10530.23346875,"end":10532.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10533.102218750002,"end":10535.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10535.532218750002,"end":10536.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10536.578468750002,"end":10542.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10543.227218750002,"end":10543.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10543.26096875,"end":10543.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10543.328468750002,"end":10544.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10543.68284375,"end":10543.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10543.71659375,"end":10543.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10543.800968750002,"end":10543.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10543.969718750002,"end":10544.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10544.20596875,"end":10544.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10545.99471875,"end":10547.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10547.88471875,"end":10553.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10548.20534375,"end":10549.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10549.69034375,"end":10549.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10551.79971875,"end":10552.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10553.453468750002,"end":10556.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10556.84534375,"end":10558.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10557.098468750002,"end":10557.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10557.11534375,"end":10558.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10558.245968750001,"end":10560.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10558.262843750003,"end":10558.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10560.524093750002,"end":10564.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10564.50659375,"end":10567.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10567.864718750003,"end":10569.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10570.075343750003,"end":10570.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10571.67846875,"end":10573.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10572.927218750003,"end":10572.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10572.94409375,"end":10573.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10574.294093750003,"end":10576.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10577.04471875,"end":10580.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10581.077843750001,"end":10583.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10584.13221875,"end":10588.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10584.621593750002,"end":10585.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10588.992218750001,"end":10593.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10592.063468750002,"end":10596.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10597.480343750001,"end":10601.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10600.04534375,"end":10612.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10603.808468750001,"end":10604.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10604.11221875,"end":10604.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10611.60471875,"end":10614.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10615.367843750002,"end":10626.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10620.852218750002,"end":10621.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10625.172218750002,"end":10625.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10625.914718750002,"end":10635.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10628.31096875,"end":10628.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10635.95534375,"end":10640.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10641.06846875,"end":10647.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10648.24034375,"end":10649.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10649.961593750002,"end":10656.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10657.133468750002,"end":10659.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10660.440968750001,"end":10660.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10660.879718750002,"end":10661.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10661.031593750002,"end":10663.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10663.49534375,"end":10669.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10668.08534375,"end":10670.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10670.312843750002,"end":10672.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10671.17346875,"end":10672.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10672.624718750001,"end":10672.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10673.65409375,"end":10673.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10674.39659375,"end":10679.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10679.93159375,"end":10681.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10682.715968750003,"end":10688.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10688.58846875,"end":10689.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10690.74846875,"end":10692.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10693.195343750001,"end":10697.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10697.565968750001,"end":10698.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10697.70096875,"end":10697.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10698.61221875,"end":10698.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10698.780968750001,"end":10700.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10700.45159375,"end":10709.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10709.969093750002,"end":10711.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10711.63971875,"end":10717.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10718.38971875,"end":10720.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10721.039093750001,"end":10727.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10728.801593750002,"end":10730.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10731.29909375,"end":10732.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10731.36659375,"end":10740.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10740.141593750002,"end":10744.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10744.59659375,"end":10750.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10751.211593750002,"end":10754.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10754.519093750001,"end":10756.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10754.97471875,"end":10756.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10756.98284375,"end":10758.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10758.87284375,"end":10758.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10758.906593750002,"end":10759.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10759.075343750003,"end":10759.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10759.277843750002,"end":10760.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10760.290343750003,"end":10766.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10768.57596875,"end":10769.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10769.993468750003,"end":10775.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10776.000968750002,"end":10776.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10777.148468750001,"end":10778.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10778.59971875,"end":10779.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10780.33784375,"end":10781.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10781.72159375,"end":10784.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10784.792843750001,"end":10785.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10786.075343750003,"end":10787.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10787.965343750002,"end":10790.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10788.99471875,"end":10796.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10797.01034375,"end":10797.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10797.90471875,"end":10801.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10802.359718750002,"end":10808.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10808.468468750001,"end":10812.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10812.332843750002,"end":10817.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10817.192843750003,"end":10817.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10817.83409375,"end":10819.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10820.196593750003,"end":10820.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10820.770343750002,"end":10824.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10821.27659375,"end":10821.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10824.26346875,"end":10828.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10828.97159375,"end":10830.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10831.941593750002,"end":10834.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10832.464718750001,"end":10837.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10837.29096875,"end":10845.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10845.69471875,"end":10860.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10846.16721875,"end":10846.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10860.679718750001,"end":10864.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10865.489093750002,"end":10872.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10872.72846875,"end":10876.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10875.968468750001,"end":10879.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10876.255343750003,"end":10881.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10881.53721875,"end":10885.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10886.093468750001,"end":10891.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10886.81909375,"end":10887.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10891.93221875,"end":10897.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10897.93971875,"end":10904.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10904.504093750002,"end":10905.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10904.58846875,"end":10908.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10906.05659375,"end":10906.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10906.731593750003,"end":10907.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10908.68909375,"end":10910.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10908.891593750002,"end":10917.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10916.02971875,"end":10925.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10925.969093750002,"end":10926.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10926.74534375,"end":10928.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10926.930968750003,"end":10931.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10931.84159375,"end":10935.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10935.874718750001,"end":10937.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10937.190968750001,"end":10939.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10940.144093750001,"end":10946.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10947.434093750002,"end":10954.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10954.36971875,"end":10954.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10955.500343750002,"end":10956.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10956.614093750002,"end":10958.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10958.301593750002,"end":10959.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10960.22534375,"end":10962.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10963.07721875,"end":10965.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10966.249718750001,"end":10968.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10968.578468750002,"end":10970.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10970.839718750001,"end":10975.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10974.383468750002,"end":10976.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10976.30721875,"end":10976.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10976.745968750001,"end":10979.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10979.15909375,"end":10983.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10983.394718750002,"end":10988.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10988.91284375,"end":10991.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10991.309093750002,"end":10993.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10994.65034375,"end":10998.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10998.902843750002,"end":11002.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11003.492843750002,"end":11006.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11007.087218750003,"end":11009.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11010.05721875,"end":11011.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11012.38596875,"end":11017.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11017.49909375,"end":11017.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11017.566593750002,"end":11017.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11017.684718750003,"end":11025.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11017.75221875,"end":11017.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11017.97159375,"end":11018.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11018.32596875,"end":11018.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11025.649718750003,"end":11026.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11026.527218750001,"end":11032.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11032.281593750002,"end":11032.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11032.78784375,"end":11045.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11046.524093750002,"end":11052.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11052.902843750002,"end":11059.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11059.602218750002,"end":11073.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11073.625343750002,"end":11079.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11079.97034375,"end":11081.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11082.04596875,"end":11084.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11084.99909375,"end":11092.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11092.879718750002,"end":11116.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11101.148468750001,"end":11101.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11104.590968750003,"end":11105.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11105.957843750002,"end":11106.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11116.99409375,"end":11119.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11119.57596875,"end":11123.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11123.74409375,"end":11124.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11124.081593750001,"end":11129.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11129.633468750002,"end":11133.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11133.312218750001,"end":11139.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11137.750343750002,"end":11155.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11141.93534375,"end":11142.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11142.137843750003,"end":11142.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11145.47909375,"end":11145.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11147.250968750002,"end":11148.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11155.45221875,"end":11157.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11158.624718750001,"end":11166.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11166.927218750003,"end":11172.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11173.187843750002,"end":11174.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11174.250968750002,"end":11178.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11177.28846875,"end":11179.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11180.69721875,"end":11182.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11180.79846875,"end":11181.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11182.688468750002,"end":11187.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11186.72159375,"end":11187.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11187.801593750002,"end":11189.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11189.117843750002,"end":11192.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11192.543468750002,"end":11193.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11193.94409375,"end":11200.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11198.348468750002,"end":11207.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11206.39784375,"end":11211.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11211.71346875,"end":11214.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11213.45159375,"end":11217.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11217.332843750002,"end":11218.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11218.530968750001,"end":11223.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11223.644093750001,"end":11227.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11227.62659375,"end":11237.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11237.19471875,"end":11252.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11252.669093750003,"end":11256.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11256.73596875,"end":11268.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11268.51471875,"end":11274.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11275.41659375,"end":11276.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11276.51346875,"end":11276.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11277.69471875,"end":11282.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11280.090968750003,"end":11281.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11282.85846875,"end":11286.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11286.992843750002,"end":11290.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11290.688468750002,"end":11292.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11292.224093750003,"end":11295.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11295.98721875,"end":11296.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11297.15159375,"end":11300.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11301.184718750003,"end":11301.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11302.51784375,"end":11304.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11304.711593750002,"end":11305.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11305.977218750002,"end":11306.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11307.42846875,"end":11308.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11309.082218750002,"end":11310.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11310.65159375,"end":11311.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11313.06471875,"end":11314.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11315.81534375,"end":11318.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11318.380343750003,"end":11325.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11326.41284375,"end":11327.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11327.425343750001,"end":11328.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11328.505343750003,"end":11331.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11331.52596875,"end":11333.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11334.293468750002,"end":11335.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11336.11596875,"end":11340.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11340.891593750002,"end":11342.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11342.49471875,"end":11353.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11351.45534375,"end":11362.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11362.660343750002,"end":11362.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11362.677218750003,"end":11362.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11362.74471875,"end":11366.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11365.37721875,"end":11365.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11365.410968750002,"end":11368.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11368.617218750001,"end":11370.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11371.199093750001,"end":11374.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11374.86096875,"end":11376.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11376.379718750002,"end":11384.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11380.78409375,"end":11382.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11383.14659375,"end":11391.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11386.25159375,"end":11387.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11391.972218750001,"end":11393.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11393.997218750003,"end":11396.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11397.372218750003,"end":11402.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11404.544093750003,"end":11404.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11404.56096875,"end":11405.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11405.910968750002,"end":11406.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11406.02909375,"end":11407.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11408.10471875,"end":11413.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11409.910343750002,"end":11409.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11409.927218750003,"end":11412.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11412.441593750002,"end":11412.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11426.042843750001,"end":11431.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11432.168468750002,"end":11434.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11434.73346875,"end":11436.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11462.10471875,"end":11465.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11465.867843750002,"end":11467.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11477.359718750002,"end":11477.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11478.70971875,"end":11479.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11479.82346875,"end":11483.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11484.278468750003,"end":11492.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11493.05346875,"end":11493.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11493.964718750001,"end":11505.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11505.895343750002,"end":11508.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11508.629093750002,"end":11517.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11517.960968750001,"end":11520.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11520.99846875,"end":11522.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11522.297843750002,"end":11525.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11525.774093750002,"end":11526.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11527.49534375,"end":11529.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11528.69346875,"end":11529.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11529.739718750003,"end":11529.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11530.043468750002,"end":11532.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11532.96284375,"end":11536.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11537.789093750001,"end":11538.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11539.071593750003,"end":11540.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11541.04596875,"end":11543.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11543.72909375,"end":11547.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11548.26846875,"end":11549.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11550.05721875,"end":11552.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11554.00596875,"end":11554.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11555.187218750001,"end":11562.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11563.50659375,"end":11565.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11566.03784375,"end":11567.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11567.92784375,"end":11571.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11572.14659375,"end":11576.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11576.989718750003,"end":11581.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11581.15784375,"end":11589.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11581.461593750002,"end":11582.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11589.44346875,"end":11589.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11589.76409375,"end":11592.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11593.03784375,"end":11596.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11597.121593750002,"end":11599.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11599.922843750002,"end":11601.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11601.40784375,"end":11603.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11603.93909375,"end":11610.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11610.891593750002,"end":11613.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11613.574718750002,"end":11614.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11614.90784375,"end":11619.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11619.88596875,"end":11620.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11621.286593750003,"end":11622.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11622.653468750003,"end":11623.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11624.25659375,"end":11626.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11627.715968750003,"end":11631.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11631.597218750001,"end":11632.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11633.41971875,"end":11641.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11641.45221875,"end":11643.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11644.000343750002,"end":11651.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11652.15096875,"end":11654.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11655.74534375,"end":11656.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11657.68596875,"end":11661.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11661.17909375,"end":11670.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11669.093468750001,"end":11671.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11672.012843750003,"end":11676.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11672.114093750002,"end":11672.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11677.46346875,"end":11679.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11679.79221875,"end":11680.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11681.00721875,"end":11684.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11685.040343750003,"end":11687.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11687.26784375,"end":11687.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11687.47034375,"end":11688.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11688.820343750001,"end":11695.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11695.671593750001,"end":11696.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11697.03846875,"end":11699.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11700.34596875,"end":11700.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11700.649718750003,"end":11701.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11701.965968750003,"end":11707.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11707.93971875,"end":11708.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11709.340343750002,"end":11719.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11719.60034375,"end":11725.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11725.624718750001,"end":11727.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11727.97034375,"end":11730.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11730.67034375,"end":11732.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11733.218468750001,"end":11734.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11734.956593750001,"end":11737.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11736.82971875,"end":11738.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11738.922218750002,"end":11741.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11741.774093750002,"end":11745.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11746.347218750001,"end":11751.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11751.780968750001,"end":11753.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11754.312218750001,"end":11760.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11761.399718750003,"end":11761.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11762.125343750002,"end":11767.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11767.761593750001,"end":11769.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11769.989093750002,"end":11772.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11772.70596875,"end":11776.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11777.852843750003,"end":11783.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11783.539718750002,"end":11805.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11805.44346875,"end":11806.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11807.434718750003,"end":11808.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11808.852218750002,"end":11811.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11811.957218750002,"end":11816.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11817.171593750001,"end":11818.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11819.280968750001,"end":11823.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11824.343468750001,"end":11830.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11831.27909375,"end":11836.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11836.645343750002,"end":11845.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11846.80409375,"end":11847.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11848.305968750003,"end":11852.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11852.474093750003,"end":11854.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11855.460968750001,"end":11860.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11860.270343750002,"end":11860.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11860.72596875,"end":11861.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11860.81034375,"end":11861.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11861.65409375,"end":11864.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11865.855968750002,"end":11869.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11870.36159375,"end":11876.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11876.925968750002,"end":11879.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11880.030968750001,"end":11881.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11881.937843750002,"end":11888.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11889.379718750002,"end":11906.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11906.59221875,"end":11909.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11910.11909375,"end":11912.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11912.27909375,"end":11929.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11930.11596875,"end":11933.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11931.65159375,"end":11942.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11942.97471875,"end":11955.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11943.801593750002,"end":11944.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11945.421593750001,"end":11945.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11945.99534375,"end":11946.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11955.42846875,"end":11957.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11957.53784375,"end":11958.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11958.53346875,"end":11966.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11966.34659375,"end":11973.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11973.130343750003,"end":11982.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11977.062218750001,"end":11977.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11982.64784375,"end":11992.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11982.68159375,"end":11983.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11992.48596875,"end":11993.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11994.224093750003,"end":11996.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11994.426593750002,"end":11994.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11996.519093750001,"end":12003.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11999.77596875,"end":12014.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12012.128468750001,"end":12019.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12018.844718750002,"end":12020.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12020.27909375,"end":12022.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12022.55721875,"end":12025.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12026.067218750002,"end":12029.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12030.10034375,"end":12034.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12035.280968750001,"end":12044.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12044.96721875,"end":12051.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12049.92846875,"end":12050.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12050.687843750002,"end":12051.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12051.953468750002,"end":12054.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12054.19784375,"end":12070.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12070.684718750003,"end":12070.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12071.07284375,"end":12073.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12074.27909375,"end":12085.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12085.29846875,"end":12101.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12101.54909375,"end":12110.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12111.083468750003,"end":12126.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12126.675968750002,"end":12129.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12129.93284375,"end":12132.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12133.020968750003,"end":12136.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12137.13846875,"end":12154.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12154.620968750001,"end":12166.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12166.09596875,"end":12179.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12179.71409375,"end":12180.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12180.777218750001,"end":12187.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12188.219093750002,"end":12190.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12190.328468750002,"end":12194.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12194.327843750001,"end":12201.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12195.42471875,"end":12197.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12202.191593750002,"end":12204.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12204.402218750001,"end":12207.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12207.422843750002,"end":12208.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12209.12721875,"end":12215.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12215.387843750003,"end":12219.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12219.927218750003,"end":12225.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12226.20471875,"end":12227.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12227.250968750002,"end":12235.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12235.317218750002,"end":12246.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12247.36596875,"end":12248.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12248.715968750003,"end":12249.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12250.605968750002,"end":12251.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12250.69034375,"end":12250.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12251.80409375,"end":12253.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12254.504093750002,"end":12256.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12255.26346875,"end":12256.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12256.37721875,"end":12269.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12269.489093750002,"end":12274.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12274.652843750002,"end":12279.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12280.37346875,"end":12280.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12281.200343750003,"end":12282.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12282.972218750001,"end":12283.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12283.00596875,"end":12285.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12285.33471875,"end":12285.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12285.55409375,"end":12286.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12285.992843750002,"end":12286.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12286.262843750003,"end":12286.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12286.364093750002,"end":12286.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12286.465343750002,"end":12289.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12289.789718750002,"end":12295.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12295.51034375,"end":12303.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12300.690968750001,"end":12309.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12310.360343750002,"end":12313.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12310.714718750001,"end":12311.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12312.081593750001,"end":12315.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12315.000968750002,"end":12320.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12316.992218750001,"end":12321.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12321.19409375,"end":12323.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12324.14721875,"end":12324.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12325.19346875,"end":12326.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12326.864093750002,"end":12330.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12331.605968750002,"end":12333.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12333.765968750002,"end":12334.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12334.862843750001,"end":12337.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12337.69784375,"end":12352.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12352.68284375,"end":12355.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12355.281593750002,"end":12356.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12357.644093750001,"end":12358.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12359.16284375,"end":12360.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12359.63534375,"end":12367.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12368.29221875,"end":12372.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12373.219718750002,"end":12375.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12376.122218750003,"end":12379.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12379.76721875,"end":12380.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12397.23284375,"end":12397.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12398.54909375,"end":12403.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12403.375343750002,"end":12406.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12414.69846875,"end":12417.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12417.73596875,"end":12419.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12427.067843750003,"end":12436.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12427.18596875,"end":12427.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12436.72034375,"end":12437.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12437.614718750003,"end":12446.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12446.575343750003,"end":12451.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12451.77284375,"end":12470.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12470.723468750002,"end":12476.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12476.562218750001,"end":12478.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12478.688468750002,"end":12479.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12480.54471875,"end":12480.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12481.55721875,"end":12482.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12482.417843750001,"end":12483.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12483.784718750001,"end":12486.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12486.552218750003,"end":12509.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12505.047218750002,"end":12505.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12510.39659375,"end":12515.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12515.661593750003,"end":12519.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12520.774718750003,"end":12523.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12524.06534375,"end":12528.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12529.49909375,"end":12532.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12533.144093750001,"end":12533.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12533.464718750001,"end":12536.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12536.56971875,"end":12539.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12539.387843750003,"end":12546.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12540.82221875,"end":12540.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12540.83909375,"end":12541.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12546.660968750002,"end":12549.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12549.715343750002,"end":12583.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12583.80284375,"end":12615.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12615.88221875,"end":12634.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12634.630343750003,"end":12635.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12636.925343750001,"end":12642.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12643.30409375,"end":12647.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12647.67471875,"end":12657.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12657.867218750001,"end":12662.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12662.929718750001,"end":12676.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12662.997218750003,"end":12663.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12663.351593750001,"end":12663.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12677.847218750001,"end":12680.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12681.542843750001,"end":12683.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12683.601593750001,"end":12691.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12683.820968750002,"end":12683.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12684.192218750002,"end":12685.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12691.00971875,"end":12696.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12697.101593750001,"end":12701.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12701.77596875,"end":12708.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12706.922843750002,"end":12713.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12713.53784375,"end":12717.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12717.97596875,"end":12722.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12723.224093750003,"end":12729.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12730.09221875,"end":12732.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12733.062218750001,"end":12738.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12738.546593750001,"end":12765.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12760.821593750003,"end":12764.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12765.023468750001,"end":12781.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12767.082218750002,"end":12767.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12779.29971875,"end":12779.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12781.35846875,"end":12793.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12789.644093750001,"end":12789.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12793.508468750002,"end":12800.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12799.92096875,"end":12809.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12809.961593750002,"end":12814.298468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12814.21409375,"end":12814.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12814.51784375,"end":12816.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12816.52596875,"end":12844.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12845.11221875,"end":12855.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12855.692843750003,"end":12856.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12856.82346875,"end":12861.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12858.49409375,"end":12858.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12861.24471875,"end":12862.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12862.527218750001,"end":12864.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12864.855968750002,"end":12871.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12869.31096875,"end":12869.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12869.918468750002,"end":12870.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12871.757843750001,"end":12876.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12876.567218750002,"end":12879.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12878.457218750002,"end":12882.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12882.000968750002,"end":12885.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12884.71784375,"end":12888.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12885.747218750003,"end":12886.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12888.362843750001,"end":12898.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12888.582218750002,"end":12890.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12897.79596875,"end":12902.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12902.655968750001,"end":12916.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12902.993468750003,"end":12903.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12916.999718750001,"end":12927.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12928.06971875,"end":12951.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12952.386593750001,"end":12959.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12960.773468750001,"end":12960.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12961.212218750003,"end":12980.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12980.922218750002,"end":13014.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13013.474093750003,"end":13014.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13014.90846875,"end":13014.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13015.296593750001,"end":13017.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13017.473468750002,"end":13018.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13018.55346875,"end":13030.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13022.45159375,"end":13022.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13025.45534375,"end":13026.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13028.189093750003,"end":13029.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13030.16346875,"end":13039.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13040.102843750003,"end":13049.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13050.04221875,"end":13059.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13059.69471875,"end":13066.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13060.57221875,"end":13060.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13066.59659375,"end":13073.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13071.96284375,"end":13073.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13073.54909375,"end":13073.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13073.71784375,"end":13074.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13074.595343750003,"end":13085.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13081.800968750002,"end":13081.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13081.919093750003,"end":13082.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13086.137843750003,"end":13089.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13086.863468750002,"end":13106.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13090.187843750002,"end":13092.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13096.532843750003,"end":13096.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13106.97846875,"end":13115.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13115.972843750002,"end":13117.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13116.563468750002,"end":13121.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13120.84971875,"end":13122.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13121.96346875,"end":13129.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13129.574093750001,"end":13131.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13130.805968750003,"end":13147.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13137.859718750002,"end":13139.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13141.909718750001,"end":13142.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13145.571593750003,"end":13154.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13154.903468750003,"end":13158.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13158.44721875,"end":13167.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13166.88471875,"end":13173.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13174.49534375,"end":13190.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13190.813468750002,"end":13220.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13205.71409375,"end":13205.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13205.96721875,"end":13206.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13221.239093750002,"end":13225.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13225.37346875,"end":13240.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13235.110343750002,"end":13235.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13235.12721875,"end":13235.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13240.34159375,"end":13246.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13246.83846875,"end":13250.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13248.914093750001,"end":13252.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13250.73659375,"end":13251.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13252.59284375,"end":13252.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13253.01471875,"end":13253.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13254.22971875,"end":13263.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13261.671593750001,"end":13262.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13264.13534375,"end":13265.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13266.582218750002,"end":13268.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13268.20221875,"end":13282.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13283.001593750003,"end":13291.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13293.261593750001,"end":13299.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13299.910343750002,"end":13302.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13303.487843750001,"end":13306.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13307.36909375,"end":13307.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13307.43659375,"end":13311.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13311.43596875,"end":13312.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13312.954718750003,"end":13315.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13315.199093750001,"end":13316.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13316.02596875,"end":13322.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13323.45096875,"end":13325.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13326.336593750002,"end":13328.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13328.58096875,"end":13330.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13344.477218750002,"end":13348.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13349.050343750001,"end":13351.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13351.31159375,"end":13354.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13354.180343750002,"end":13355.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13355.597843750002,"end":13357.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20715.59534375,"end":20717.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20718.194093750004,"end":20718.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20718.97034375,"end":20719.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20720.33721875,"end":20724.218468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20724.75846875,"end":20726.108468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20729.51721875,"end":20731.373468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20731.592843750004,"end":20731.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20745.97034375,"end":20746.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20747.809718750003,"end":20750.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20751.97784375,"end":20752.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20752.11284375,"end":20754.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20754.71159375,"end":20757.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20756.483468750004,"end":20757.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20757.14159375,"end":20760.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20760.02721875,"end":20763.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20791.83659375,"end":20792.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20793.23721875,"end":20796.780968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":20799.210968749998,"end":20800.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20802.63659375,"end":20803.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20804.10471875,"end":20805.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":21593.93909375,"end":21599.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21614.40846875,"end":21622.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":21622.474718750003,"end":21622.812218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":21622.997843750003,"end":21630.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21627.30096875,"end":21628.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21636.78471875,"end":21637.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21637.81409375,"end":21638.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21639.366593749997,"end":21644.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21645.12096875,"end":21648.225968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21648.512843750003,"end":21651.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21651.61784375,"end":21652.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21652.68096875,"end":21658.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21658.418468750002,"end":21661.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21661.590968750003,"end":21664.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21664.39221875,"end":21667.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21667.632218749997,"end":21670.990343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21671.24346875,"end":21677.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21678.297218749998,"end":21686.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21687.40971875,"end":21691.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21692.725343750004,"end":21693.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21692.944718749997,"end":21693.585968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21693.60284375,"end":21693.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21693.92346875,"end":21698.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21698.98596875,"end":21705.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21705.685343750003,"end":21706.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21707.11971875,"end":21708.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21708.942218750002,"end":21708.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21708.975968749997,"end":21710.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21711.051593750002,"end":21718.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21712.58721875,"end":21713.312843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21718.39221875,"end":21721.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21719.809718750003,"end":21726.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21722.91471875,"end":21723.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21726.779093750003,"end":21729.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21730.10346875,"end":21735.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21730.255343750003,"end":21730.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21735.030968749998,"end":21750.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21750.87659375,"end":21752.007218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21752.547218749998,"end":21760.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21760.36034375,"end":21764.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21764.79846875,"end":21765.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21765.929093749997,"end":21768.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21769.05096875,"end":21771.818468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21772.324718750002,"end":21773.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21773.624093750004,"end":21781.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21781.97721875,"end":21783.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21784.035968750002,"end":21785.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21786.12846875,"end":21787.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21787.849718750003,"end":21799.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":21787.934093750002,"end":21788.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":21792.203468749998,"end":21792.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":21794.262218750002,"end":21795.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21799.51034375,"end":21804.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21799.577843749998,"end":21799.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21804.99471875,"end":21815.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21815.76096875,"end":21826.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21825.531593749998,"end":21855.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21828.09659375,"end":21828.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21830.64471875,"end":21830.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21856.007843749998,"end":21858.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21859.07909375,"end":21867.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21867.904718750004,"end":21878.468468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21878.92409375,"end":21881.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21881.47221875,"end":21883.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21881.607218750003,"end":21881.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21882.07971875,"end":21886.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21886.41659375,"end":21888.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21888.72846875,"end":21903.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21903.49409375,"end":21916.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21916.97721875,"end":21921.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21921.685343750003,"end":21922.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21922.866593749997,"end":21938.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":21924.92534375,"end":21924.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21939.33659375,"end":21939.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21939.75846875,"end":21941.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":21941.14221875,"end":21961.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21943.58909375,"end":21944.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21961.18971875,"end":21968.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21969.154718750004,"end":21984.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21985.05096875,"end":21996.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":21996.762218750002,"end":22001.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22001.537843750004,"end":22007.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":22005.79034375,"end":22005.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22005.90846875,"end":22005.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":22005.92534375,"end":22006.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22006.600343750004,"end":22006.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":22006.819718749997,"end":22006.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":22007.359718749998,"end":22007.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22007.663468749997,"end":22009.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22009.148468749998,"end":22016.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22017.349718750003,"end":22021.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22017.73784375,"end":22018.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22019.965343750002,"end":22020.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22021.551593750002,"end":22050.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22050.492218749998,"end":22094.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22094.856593750003,"end":22094.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22095.56534375,"end":22096.679093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22096.763468750003,"end":22102.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22102.53471875,"end":22104.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22104.255968750003,"end":22105.538468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22105.825343750003,"end":22111.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22111.90034375,"end":22113.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22113.554093749997,"end":22115.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22116.152843750002,"end":22122.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22123.442843750003,"end":22135.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22123.83096875,"end":22124.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22135.559093750002,"end":22137.162218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22137.600968749997,"end":22138.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22138.81596875,"end":22141.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22141.87034375,"end":22147.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22147.489718750003,"end":22147.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22147.74284375,"end":22148.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22148.249093750004,"end":22148.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22148.974718750003,"end":22167.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22167.90846875,"end":22168.397843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22168.54971875,"end":22169.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22168.600343750004,"end":22169.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22169.41034375,"end":22169.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22170.11909375,"end":22176.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22170.186593750004,"end":22170.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22171.48596875,"end":22171.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22176.14346875,"end":22177.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22177.898468749998,"end":22183.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22183.669718750003,"end":22183.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22184.44596875,"end":22185.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22186.234718749998,"end":22189.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22190.301593750002,"end":22203.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22204.00409375,"end":22206.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22207.37909375,"end":22211.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22211.429093749997,"end":22213.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22215.630968750003,"end":22223.022218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22223.325968750003,"end":22223.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22224.03471875,"end":22225.755968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22226.194718749997,"end":22230.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22230.379718750002,"end":22234.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22235.42534375,"end":22238.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22238.192843750003,"end":22242.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22242.69846875,"end":22244.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22244.723468750002,"end":22246.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22247.20409375,"end":22248.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22249.094093749998,"end":22250.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22251.25409375,"end":22258.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22259.67471875,"end":22260.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22260.92346875,"end":22262.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22263.404093750003,"end":22269.529718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22269.98534375,"end":22277.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22277.57909375,"end":22279.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22279.68846875,"end":22286.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22286.640968749998,"end":22287.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22289.83034375,"end":22293.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22293.981593750003,"end":22294.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22294.943468750003,"end":22298.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22298.217218750004,"end":22298.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22298.234093749998,"end":22299.162218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22298.25096875,"end":22300.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22301.32221875,"end":22302.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22302.89159375,"end":22307.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22307.734718749998,"end":22308.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22309.33784375,"end":22312.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22313.084093750003,"end":22324.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22325.14971875,"end":22328.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22329.38534375,"end":22338.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22338.396593750003,"end":22340.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22341.19784375,"end":22348.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22348.89284375,"end":22350.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22350.58034375,"end":22352.453468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22352.79096875,"end":22355.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22355.811593750004,"end":22359.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22360.50284375,"end":22364.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22365.16034375,"end":22367.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22365.295343750004,"end":22369.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22369.80096875,"end":22378.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22371.420968750004,"end":22371.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":22371.77534375,"end":22371.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":22374.00284375,"end":22375.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22378.390343749998,"end":22380.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22380.11159375,"end":22381.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22381.866593749997,"end":22387.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22386.389093750004,"end":22387.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22387.654718750004,"end":22387.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22387.68846875,"end":22387.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22387.70534375,"end":22387.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22387.739093750002,"end":22387.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22387.80659375,"end":22387.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22387.94159375,"end":22393.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22394.13471875,"end":22398.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22399.568468750003,"end":22401.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22402.38659375,"end":22409.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22409.676593750002,"end":22415.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22416.20721875,"end":22420.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22421.387843750003,"end":22438.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22438.701593750004,"end":22438.718468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22438.718468749998,"end":22438.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22438.802843750003,"end":22439.022218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22439.022218750004,"end":22439.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22439.039093749998,"end":22446.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22439.08971875,"end":22439.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22447.17284375,"end":22450.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22450.497218750003,"end":22450.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22451.442218750002,"end":22452.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22452.859718749998,"end":22457.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22457.449718750002,"end":22458.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22458.934718750003,"end":22465.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22465.465343750002,"end":22469.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22469.599718750003,"end":22471.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22471.506593750004,"end":22476.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22476.60284375,"end":22482.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22482.779093750003,"end":22484.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22484.95596875,"end":22490.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22490.42346875,"end":22504.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22504.632218749997,"end":22513.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22514.14971875,"end":22523.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22523.98784375,"end":22534.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":22535.547218749998,"end":22543.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":22543.326593750004,"end":22543.343468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":22547.882843749998,"end":22552.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":22552.945343749998,"end":22553.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":22554.54846875,"end":22557.687218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22569.75284375,"end":22573.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":22573.53284375,"end":22575.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22586.273468749998,"end":22586.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22586.30721875,"end":22586.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22587.48846875,"end":22587.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22587.505343750003,"end":22594.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22594.356593750003,"end":22605.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22605.79784375,"end":22614.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22615.062218749998,"end":22622.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22623.246593750002,"end":22629.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22629.76034375,"end":22630.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22630.90784375,"end":22635.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22636.122218750003,"end":22651.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22651.81596875,"end":22652.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22652.794718750003,"end":22659.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22660.13534375,"end":22664.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22665.164093749998,"end":22670.108468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22670.614718750003,"end":22676.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22677.19596875,"end":22684.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22685.43096875,"end":22696.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22697.834093750003,"end":22705.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22706.74409375,"end":22713.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22713.81471875,"end":22714.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22714.75971875,"end":22721.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22721.661593750003,"end":22724.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22724.310968750004,"end":22724.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22725.390968749998,"end":22726.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22727.466593750003,"end":22731.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22731.482843750004,"end":22733.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22733.87909375,"end":22734.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22735.060343750003,"end":22735.499093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22736.005343750003,"end":22743.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22743.22784375,"end":22746.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22743.24471875,"end":22743.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22746.332843750002,"end":22752.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22747.733468750004,"end":22748.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22752.458468750003,"end":22756.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22756.20471875,"end":22764.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22764.03471875,"end":22769.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22769.72159375,"end":22772.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22772.944718749997,"end":22775.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22775.779718750004,"end":22777.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22778.429093749997,"end":22781.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22781.71971875,"end":22786.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22786.529093750003,"end":22790.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22791.35534375,"end":22797.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22797.936593750004,"end":22800.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22800.51846875,"end":22802.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22802.999093750004,"end":22805.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22805.935343750003,"end":22810.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22810.94721875,"end":22814.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22814.65971875,"end":22815.655343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22816.11096875,"end":22816.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22816.364093750002,"end":22818.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22819.131593750004,"end":22839.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22839.76971875,"end":22842.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22842.638468750003,"end":22845.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22846.654718750004,"end":22850.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22851.44721875,"end":22855.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22855.817843750003,"end":22861.538468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22862.41596875,"end":22864.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22865.099093750003,"end":22874.515343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22874.76846875,"end":22879.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22880.55659375,"end":22888.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22888.47096875,"end":22890.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22890.66471875,"end":22891.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22893.162218750003,"end":22895.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22895.74409375,"end":22897.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22898.68034375,"end":22904.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22904.92409375,"end":22907.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22907.89409375,"end":22917.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":22918.035968750002,"end":22920.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22920.246593750002,"end":22943.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22944.411593750003,"end":22964.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22964.982218750003,"end":22969.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22969.200968750003,"end":22970.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22971.293468750002,"end":22995.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22995.458468750003,"end":22999.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23000.08221875,"end":23001.702218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23002.15784375,"end":23007.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23007.827843749998,"end":23014.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23015.100968749997,"end":23023.420343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23024.247218750003,"end":23028.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23029.39409375,"end":23047.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23047.09596875,"end":23050.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23050.437218749998,"end":23056.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23056.934093750002,"end":23059.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23059.718468749998,"end":23060.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23060.29221875,"end":23063.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23063.684093750002,"end":23066.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23066.687843749998,"end":23069.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23069.69159375,"end":23076.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23076.40784375,"end":23084.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23084.406593749998,"end":23085.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23086.21221875,"end":23091.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23091.325343750003,"end":23110.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23111.085968749998,"end":23112.857843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23113.83659375,"end":23118.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23118.848468750002,"end":23120.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23120.38409375,"end":23123.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23123.89409375,"end":23126.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23126.71221875,"end":23128.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23129.192843750003,"end":23132.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23132.71971875,"end":23133.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23133.78284375,"end":23134.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23134.50846875,"end":23134.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23135.436593750004,"end":23135.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23135.58846875,"end":23135.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23135.99346875,"end":23136.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23136.297218749998,"end":23136.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23137.022843749997,"end":23140.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23140.718468749998,"end":23155.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23143.654718750004,"end":23143.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23152.817843750003,"end":23153.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23155.230968750002,"end":23156.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23157.18846875,"end":23161.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23161.997843750003,"end":23164.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23164.124093750004,"end":23166.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23166.520343750002,"end":23167.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23168.207843750002,"end":23171.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23171.11034375,"end":23176.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23176.94909375,"end":23182.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23183.15909375,"end":23184.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23184.96471875,"end":23189.875343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23190.162218750003,"end":23198.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23199.004718750002,"end":23199.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23199.038468749997,"end":23199.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23199.69659375,"end":23199.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23199.848468750002,"end":23199.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23200.304093749997,"end":23209.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23210.327843749998,"end":23219.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23219.87909375,"end":23257.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23257.20659375,"end":23261.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23262.79221875,"end":23263.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23263.85534375,"end":23265.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23265.981593750003,"end":23266.234718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23266.420343750004,"end":23268.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23268.715343750002,"end":23269.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23270.28471875,"end":23271.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23271.482843750004,"end":23272.242218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23272.731593750003,"end":23275.920968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23276.629718750002,"end":23277.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23277.929093750005,"end":23286.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23286.94034375,"end":23287.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23287.834718750004,"end":23302.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23303.07284375,"end":23315.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23315.982218750003,"end":23320.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23321.41596875,"end":23326.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23327.372843750003,"end":23327.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23328.199718750002,"end":23336.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23336.92409375,"end":23337.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23338.020968750003,"end":23342.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23344.163468750005,"end":23359.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23359.28346875,"end":23367.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23367.63659375,"end":23372.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23370.03284375,"end":23370.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23371.382843749998,"end":23372.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23372.59784375,"end":23372.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23372.614718750003,"end":23373.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23373.93096875,"end":23387.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23374.015343749998,"end":23374.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23387.397218750004,"end":23418.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23418.85221875,"end":23423.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23423.32409375,"end":23423.357843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23423.357843750004,"end":23423.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23423.52659375,"end":23424.944093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23425.028468750003,"end":23425.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23425.82159375,"end":23443.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23443.388468750003,"end":23448.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23448.585968749998,"end":23449.311593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23449.699718750002,"end":23451.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23451.65721875,"end":23469.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23469.59534375,"end":23472.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23473.69596875,"end":23483.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23484.445343749998,"end":23485.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23485.356593750003,"end":23486.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23486.48721875,"end":23487.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23488.107218750003,"end":23489.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23489.64284375,"end":23491.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":23506.787843750004,"end":23510.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":23512.23846875,"end":23514.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":23514.75284375,"end":23516.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23524.96221875,"end":23526.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":23527.08846875,"end":23528.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23537.264093750004,"end":23538.647843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23537.601593749998,"end":23538.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23539.255343750003,"end":23553.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23553.76784375,"end":23555.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23555.87721875,"end":23560.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23560.63596875,"end":23567.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23567.60534375,"end":23568.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23568.21284375,"end":23571.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23574.490343750003,"end":23580.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23581.139093750004,"end":23581.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23583.147218750004,"end":23583.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23585.661593750003,"end":23586.522218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23587.129718750002,"end":23587.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23587.349093750003,"end":23588.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23588.530343750004,"end":23589.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23589.812843749998,"end":23649.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23649.989093750002,"end":23656.570343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23656.975343750004,"end":23658.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23658.51096875,"end":23660.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23660.31659375,"end":23660.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23660.41784375,"end":23660.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23660.60346875,"end":23660.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23660.974718750003,"end":23661.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23661.14346875,"end":23661.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23661.22784375,"end":23667.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23667.55596875,"end":23670.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23670.475343750004,"end":23671.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23672.01096875,"end":23673.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23674.272218750004,"end":23674.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23674.33971875,"end":23676.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23676.34784375,"end":23677.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23677.91721875,"end":23685.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23678.03534375,"end":23678.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":23678.069093750004,"end":23678.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23678.98034375,"end":23679.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23686.202843749998,"end":23689.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23689.965968750003,"end":23712.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23713.32096875,"end":23725.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23725.639718750004,"end":23736.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23736.33846875,"end":23742.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23742.85221875,"end":23751.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23751.96471875,"end":23758.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23752.217843750004,"end":23753.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23758.832843750002,"end":23763.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23763.54096875,"end":23766.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23766.81471875,"end":23782.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23782.62659375,"end":23782.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23783.47034375,"end":23786.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23786.912843750004,"end":23787.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23788.22909375,"end":23790.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23791.06409375,"end":23793.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23793.69659375,"end":23795.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23796.16034375,"end":23801.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23801.661593750003,"end":23824.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23824.29096875,"end":23827.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23827.64909375,"end":23830.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23831.04096875,"end":23835.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23835.79971875,"end":23840.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23840.87909375,"end":23847.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23847.27471875,"end":23849.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23849.29971875,"end":23853.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23850.717218750004,"end":23851.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23851.881593750004,"end":23853.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23853.653468750003,"end":23857.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23855.762843750003,"end":23859.272843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23859.44159375,"end":23863.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23863.72784375,"end":23882.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23883.842843750004,"end":23887.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23887.622843750003,"end":23888.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23888.63534375,"end":23888.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23888.702843749998,"end":23889.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23888.95596875,"end":23891.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23891.60534375,"end":23899.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23891.875343749998,"end":23892.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23899.772843750005,"end":23903.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23904.34596875,"end":23907.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23908.075343750003,"end":23909.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23910.083468750003,"end":23910.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23910.67409375,"end":23912.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23913.08721875,"end":23914.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23914.47096875,"end":23928.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23928.038468750005,"end":23928.780968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23929.202843749998,"end":23929.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23929.21971875,"end":23935.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23929.270343750002,"end":23929.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23935.90221875,"end":23943.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":23943.749093750004,"end":23944.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23944.96409375,"end":23956.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23957.367218749998,"end":23961.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23961.855968750002,"end":23965.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23966.58096875,"end":23975.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23969.179718749998,"end":23970.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":23973.02721875,"end":23987.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23981.95409375,"end":23984.670968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":23987.067218750002,"end":23999.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24000.01034375,"end":24012.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24013.39221875,"end":24025.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":24019.770968750003,"end":24020.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24020.209718750004,"end":24020.226593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24025.62659375,"end":24042.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24043.311593750004,"end":24086.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24086.849093750003,"end":24094.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24094.358468750004,"end":24096.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24096.349718750003,"end":24102.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24103.55534375,"end":24105.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24106.052843750003,"end":24110.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24109.05659375,"end":24109.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24110.33909375,"end":24116.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24111.26721875,"end":24111.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24115.350968750005,"end":24122.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24116.85284375,"end":24116.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24123.788468750005,"end":24126.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24126.859718749998,"end":24137.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24134.50409375,"end":24134.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24136.309718750003,"end":24147.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24146.82284375,"end":24158.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24155.007218750005,"end":24162.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24158.027843750002,"end":24158.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24160.20471875,"end":24163.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24164.00159375,"end":24178.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24178.02471875,"end":24179.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24179.91471875,"end":24191.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24189.786593750003,"end":24202.982843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24203.219093749998,"end":24205.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24210.54284375,"end":24211.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24211.605968750002,"end":24214.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24214.710968749998,"end":24217.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24220.262843750003,"end":24224.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24224.397218750004,"end":24225.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24226.74284375,"end":24227.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24227.130968750003,"end":24239.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":24227.232218750003,"end":24227.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24239.264093750004,"end":24244.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24244.57971875,"end":24245.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24246.40221875,"end":24248.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24248.123468750004,"end":24250.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24253.388468750003,"end":24256.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24256.07159375,"end":24273.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24273.50346875,"end":24282.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24282.632843749998,"end":24286.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24288.45471875,"end":24291.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24291.559718750003,"end":24299.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24299.86221875,"end":24304.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24304.08096875,"end":24310.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24311.219093749998,"end":24313.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24313.699718750002,"end":24318.272843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24318.64409375,"end":24319.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24320.73659375,"end":24329.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24329.29221875,"end":24334.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24334.506593750004,"end":24335.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24335.147843750005,"end":24335.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24335.58659375,"end":24341.155343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24335.974718750003,"end":24338.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24339.670343750004,"end":24343.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24344.04096875,"end":24344.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24345.272843750005,"end":24349.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24349.592843750004,"end":24350.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24350.959718750004,"end":24355.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24351.31409375,"end":24352.022843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24354.857843750004,"end":24354.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24355.95471875,"end":24365.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24363.700343750003,"end":24366.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24367.96971875,"end":24369.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24369.927218750003,"end":24376.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24376.491593750005,"end":24378.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24379.427843750003,"end":24384.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24385.772843750005,"end":24386.177843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24386.88659375,"end":24391.780343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24392.26971875,"end":24394.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24394.699718750002,"end":24403.592843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24403.72784375,"end":24410.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24410.47784375,"end":24411.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24412.51971875,"end":24414.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24414.08909375,"end":24414.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24415.03409375,"end":24421.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24421.733468750004,"end":24425.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24423.67409375,"end":24423.944093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24426.12096875,"end":24442.304093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24445.324718750002,"end":24449.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24454.302218750003,"end":24457.592843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24467.076593750004,"end":24470.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24471.177218750003,"end":24472.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24473.219093749998,"end":24474.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24474.552218750003,"end":24475.952843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24476.29034375,"end":24477.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24478.129718750002,"end":24479.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24478.163468750005,"end":24479.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24479.17596875,"end":24479.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24479.429093750005,"end":24479.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24479.58096875,"end":24479.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24479.631593750004,"end":24479.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24479.732843750004,"end":24479.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24480.72846875,"end":24481.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24481.639718750004,"end":24482.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24482.09534375,"end":24482.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":24484.33971875,"end":24484.373468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24484.373468750004,"end":24484.694093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24485.723468750002,"end":24486.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24490.465343750002,"end":24491.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24491.57909375,"end":24501.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24501.83909375,"end":24504.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24504.741593750005,"end":24506.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24506.47971875,"end":24507.475343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24507.795968750004,"end":24510.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24510.68159375,"end":24511.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24511.86284375,"end":24513.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24513.95534375,"end":24515.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24515.254718750002,"end":24518.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24518.93346875,"end":24522.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24521.262218750002,"end":24530.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":24528.687218749998,"end":24530.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":24530.22284375,"end":24530.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24530.72909375,"end":24539.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":24539.436593750004,"end":24539.858468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24539.740343750003,"end":24542.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24543.115343750003,"end":24543.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24544.00971875,"end":24548.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24548.85284375,"end":24548.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24548.903468750003,"end":24549.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24549.544718750003,"end":24554.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24554.67471875,"end":24558.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24559.146593750003,"end":24562.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":24562.35284375,"end":24562.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24562.90971875,"end":24565.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24566.115968750004,"end":24566.757218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24566.976593749998,"end":24567.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24567.21284375,"end":24568.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":24569.389718750004,"end":24569.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24569.406593749998,"end":24569.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24569.94659375,"end":24570.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24571.043468750002,"end":24572.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24572.747843750003,"end":24574.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24574.28346875,"end":24574.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24575.414093749998,"end":24577.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24577.945343749998,"end":24581.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24581.489093750002,"end":24589.319093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24589.90971875,"end":24591.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24591.968468749998,"end":24594.921593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24593.60534375,"end":24594.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24595.309718750003,"end":24596.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24596.406593749998,"end":24597.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24596.777843750002,"end":24596.811593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24598.33034375,"end":24609.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24610.075343750003,"end":24612.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24612.69096875,"end":24613.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24614.17596875,"end":24615.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24616.25159375,"end":24619.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24620.08221875,"end":24623.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24623.794718750003,"end":24625.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24625.43159375,"end":24627.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24628.030343750004,"end":24628.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24629.02596875,"end":24631.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24632.18159375,"end":24633.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24633.26159375,"end":24636.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24636.670343750004,"end":24636.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24637.075343750003,"end":24639.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24639.45471875,"end":24641.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24641.935343750003,"end":24642.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24643.082843750002,"end":24648.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24648.31409375,"end":24650.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24651.14909375,"end":24651.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24652.178468750004,"end":24655.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24655.553468750004,"end":24659.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24659.38409375,"end":24664.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24665.965343750002,"end":24670.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24667.51784375,"end":24669.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24670.77471875,"end":24671.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24671.989718750003,"end":24677.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24677.52471875,"end":24681.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24681.64221875,"end":24687.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24687.36284375,"end":24688.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24688.965968750003,"end":24690.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24690.248468750004,"end":24692.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24692.121593750002,"end":24696.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24697.35284375,"end":24699.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24700.40721875,"end":24702.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24703.19159375,"end":24705.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24704.254718750002,"end":24724.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24724.639718750004,"end":24725.483468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24725.63534375,"end":24726.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24727.289093749998,"end":24727.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24727.96409375,"end":24728.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24728.60534375,"end":24728.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24728.723468750002,"end":24729.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24729.95534375,"end":24739.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24739.97909375,"end":24747.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24747.97784375,"end":24748.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24748.770968750003,"end":24760.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24760.195343749998,"end":24760.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24760.54971875,"end":24760.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24760.97159375,"end":24763.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24763.435343750003,"end":24768.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24768.531593749998,"end":24771.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24772.193468750003,"end":24774.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24774.37034375,"end":24776.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24776.76659375,"end":24786.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24786.68909375,"end":24792.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24793.25346875,"end":24794.468468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24794.789093749998,"end":24795.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24795.936593750004,"end":24797.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24798.349718750003,"end":24799.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24800.22284375,"end":24801.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24801.825968750003,"end":24802.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24803.46284375,"end":24804.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24804.880343750003,"end":24810.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24810.162218750003,"end":24812.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24813.90846875,"end":24813.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24813.92534375,"end":24814.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24814.02659375,"end":24814.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24814.97159375,"end":24815.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24815.427218750003,"end":24815.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24815.69721875,"end":24815.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24815.71409375,"end":24819.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24819.59534375,"end":24822.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24823.91534375,"end":24824.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24824.607218750003,"end":24832.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24833.027843750002,"end":24835.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24835.66034375,"end":24839.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24839.87909375,"end":24844.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24844.62096875,"end":24845.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24845.44784375,"end":24848.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24848.029718750004,"end":24849.531593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24850.08846875,"end":24851.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24851.77596875,"end":24856.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24857.530343750004,"end":24859.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24859.437218749998,"end":24867.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24863.26784375,"end":24865.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24866.64284375,"end":24874.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24867.554093750005,"end":24868.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24874.33784375,"end":24875.789093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24876.514718750004,"end":24877.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24880.834718750004,"end":24881.594093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24882.35346875,"end":24882.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24884.15909375,"end":24887.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24887.93909375,"end":24888.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24888.090968750003,"end":24892.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24893.32221875,"end":24893.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24893.98034375,"end":24898.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24899.11034375,"end":24905.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24906.029093750003,"end":24906.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24906.670343750004,"end":24908.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24908.91471875,"end":24909.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24909.67409375,"end":24919.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24921.36846875,"end":24921.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24921.58784375,"end":24921.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24922.31346875,"end":24923.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24923.039093749998,"end":24923.241593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24923.241593750005,"end":24923.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24923.427218750003,"end":24924.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24923.444093750004,"end":24923.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24924.304718749998,"end":24929.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24924.77721875,"end":24924.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24928.709093750003,"end":24934.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24934.615343750003,"end":24935.155343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24935.18909375,"end":24937.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24937.83846875,"end":24942.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24942.529718750004,"end":24943.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24943.997843750003,"end":24950.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24950.747843750003,"end":24951.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24952.28346875,"end":24952.992218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24953.22846875,"end":24954.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24954.30846875,"end":24957.734093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24958.375343749998,"end":24959.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24959.47221875,"end":24971.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24972.01034375,"end":24977.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24977.224718750003,"end":24978.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24978.96284375,"end":24979.469093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24979.50284375,"end":24981.882218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24982.304093750005,"end":24991.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24991.92284375,"end":24993.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24993.897218750004,"end":24997.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":24997.997843750003,"end":25001.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25001.170343750004,"end":25004.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25004.444093750004,"end":25006.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25007.76846875,"end":25008.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25007.819093750004,"end":25011.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25010.350343750004,"end":25012.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25012.59471875,"end":25014.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25014.872843750003,"end":25015.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25014.95721875,"end":25018.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25018.247843750003,"end":25018.585343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25018.770968750003,"end":25023.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25023.49596875,"end":25024.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25024.66034375,"end":25025.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25026.33096875,"end":25029.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25028.254718750002,"end":25032.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25029.435968750004,"end":25029.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25033.19909375,"end":25034.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25034.414093749998,"end":25035.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25036.11846875,"end":25036.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25037.09721875,"end":25039.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25040.75909375,"end":25040.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25040.97846875,"end":25041.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25041.63659375,"end":25041.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25041.670343750004,"end":25042.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25042.24409375,"end":25042.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25043.30721875,"end":25044.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25044.55596875,"end":25044.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25044.944093750004,"end":25045.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25045.973468750002,"end":25047.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25048.38659375,"end":25048.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25048.403468750003,"end":25049.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25049.500343749998,"end":25050.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25050.91784375,"end":25051.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25051.997843750003,"end":25068.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25068.53534375,"end":25068.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25068.585968749998,"end":25069.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25069.497218750003,"end":25073.412218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25074.154718750004,"end":25078.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25078.84596875,"end":25079.335343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25080.01034375,"end":25091.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25091.654093750003,"end":25092.632843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25093.20659375,"end":25101.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25101.22221875,"end":25102.420343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25102.90971875,"end":25109.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25109.592218750004,"end":25115.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25109.811593750004,"end":25110.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25110.04784375,"end":25110.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25115.44784375,"end":25115.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25115.97096875,"end":25118.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25119.295343750004,"end":25123.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25123.46346875,"end":25125.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25125.420968750004,"end":25126.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25126.973468750002,"end":25128.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25128.71159375,"end":25133.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25133.38596875,"end":25149.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25150.12596875,"end":25151.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25153.281593749998,"end":25157.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25157.027843750002,"end":25159.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25159.30596875,"end":25159.491593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25160.099093750003,"end":25161.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25161.398468749998,"end":25163.609093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25163.76096875,"end":25171.624718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25171.793468750002,"end":25174.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25175.05034375,"end":25175.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25175.96159375,"end":25188.921593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25189.124093750004,"end":25195.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25196.312843749998,"end":25196.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":25196.380343750003,"end":25198.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25196.414093749998,"end":25203.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25203.484718749998,"end":25203.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25203.974093750003,"end":25205.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25205.999093750004,"end":25207.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25207.92284375,"end":25209.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25209.64409375,"end":25211.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25211.31471875,"end":25212.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25212.951593750004,"end":25213.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25214.132843749998,"end":25216.022843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25216.242218749998,"end":25220.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25221.10221875,"end":25225.304093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25225.65846875,"end":25227.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25228.223468750002,"end":25228.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25229.505968750003,"end":25230.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25231.210343750005,"end":25232.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25232.39159375,"end":25234.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25234.63596875,"end":25235.952218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25236.08721875,"end":25237.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25238.73659375,"end":25240.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25240.289093749998,"end":25241.757218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25241.89221875,"end":25244.828468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25242.34784375,"end":25242.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25242.398468749998,"end":25242.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25242.668468750002,"end":25242.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25245.04784375,"end":25247.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25247.967218750004,"end":25251.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":25251.49409375,"end":25260.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25260.99471875,"end":25266.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25267.33971875,"end":25277.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25278.426593750002,"end":25279.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25279.89471875,"end":25281.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25281.36284375,"end":25288.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25288.905968749998,"end":25291.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25291.58909375,"end":25294.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25294.879718750002,"end":25297.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":25298.389718750004,"end":25334.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25302.929093750005,"end":25302.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25302.94596875,"end":25303.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25303.26659375,"end":25303.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25304.43096875,"end":25304.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25312.24409375,"end":25312.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25315.39971875,"end":25315.990343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25315.990343750003,"end":25316.007218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25322.335343750005,"end":25322.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25324.326593750004,"end":25324.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":25335.092843750004,"end":25341.319718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":25341.505343750003,"end":25347.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25347.90096875,"end":25357.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":25347.91784375,"end":25347.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25358.194718750005,"end":25362.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25362.514718750004,"end":25366.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25367.40846875,"end":25367.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25368.539093749998,"end":25371.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25371.812843749998,"end":25375.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25375.62659375,"end":25376.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25376.976593749998,"end":25378.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25378.59659375,"end":25379.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25379.98034375,"end":25383.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25383.03471875,"end":25383.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25384.047218749998,"end":25388.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25388.58659375,"end":25393.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25394.037218750003,"end":25394.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25394.594093749998,"end":25395.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25405.545968750004,"end":25410.085343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25412.95409375,"end":25415.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25415.73846875,"end":25417.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25434.975968750005,"end":25435.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25436.849093750003,"end":25437.186593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25437.625343749998,"end":25440.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25440.038468750005,"end":25440.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25440.69659375,"end":25442.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25450.09596875,"end":25450.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25450.129718750002,"end":25450.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25450.703468749998,"end":25457.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25457.959718750004,"end":25466.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25466.160968750002,"end":25466.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25466.66721875,"end":25467.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25467.038468750005,"end":25474.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25475.10471875,"end":25482.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25481.702843749998,"end":25494.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25494.662843750004,"end":25499.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25499.75909375,"end":25505.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25504.247843750003,"end":25504.264718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25504.281593749998,"end":25504.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25505.513468750003,"end":25507.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25508.09534375,"end":25513.444718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25513.765343749998,"end":25520.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25518.10221875,"end":25518.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25519.50284375,"end":25519.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25520.414093749998,"end":25520.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25520.56596875,"end":25520.717843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25520.717843750004,"end":25520.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25520.76846875,"end":25520.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25520.85284375,"end":25520.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25520.86971875,"end":25520.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25520.903468750003,"end":25520.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25520.95409375,"end":25520.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25520.97096875,"end":25523.468468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25523.654093750003,"end":25523.670968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25523.670968750004,"end":25524.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25524.24471875,"end":25529.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25525.763468750003,"end":25526.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25528.78409375,"end":25529.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25529.52659375,"end":25538.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25538.419718750003,"end":25543.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25544.57909375,"end":25548.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25544.730968750002,"end":25556.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25556.32409375,"end":25559.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25556.340968750003,"end":25557.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25560.44159375,"end":25567.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25564.23846875,"end":25574.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25575.578468749998,"end":25592.875343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25593.95534375,"end":25597.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25597.56659375,"end":25598.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25598.61284375,"end":25601.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25600.992218749998,"end":25603.725968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25603.64159375,"end":25603.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25603.725968750005,"end":25604.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25604.73846875,"end":25605.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25604.83971875,"end":25605.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25605.58221875,"end":25605.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25605.86909375,"end":25617.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25617.66471875,"end":25626.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25626.67596875,"end":25644.327218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25644.529718750004,"end":25659.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25659.801593750002,"end":25668.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25668.61034375,"end":25671.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25671.25971875,"end":25671.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25673.132843749998,"end":25673.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25673.26784375,"end":25674.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25673.28471875,"end":25682.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25676.13659375,"end":25677.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25679.241593750005,"end":25680.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25682.937218749998,"end":25690.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25687.679093750005,"end":25689.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25689.855968750002,"end":25692.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25693.31534375,"end":25694.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25695.44159375,"end":25711.304093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25711.75971875,"end":25716.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25717.092218750004,"end":25723.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25723.58909375,"end":25724.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25724.82096875,"end":25726.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25726.795343750004,"end":25744.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25744.68284375,"end":25750.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25750.97721875,"end":25751.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25751.145968750003,"end":25761.929093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25763.397218750004,"end":25770.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25770.029093750003,"end":25772.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25772.42534375,"end":25774.990343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25774.43346875,"end":25780.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25780.93034375,"end":25828.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25828.95659375,"end":25832.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25832.078468749998,"end":25832.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25832.93909375,"end":25840.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25839.317843750003,"end":25839.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25840.161593750003,"end":25861.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25861.559093750002,"end":25862.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25862.031593749998,"end":25868.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25862.841593750003,"end":25863.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25866.79034375,"end":25868.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25869.76034375,"end":25871.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25872.07221875,"end":25875.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25875.295343750004,"end":25875.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25875.85221875,"end":25875.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25875.953468749998,"end":25885.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25885.622843750003,"end":25887.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25888.609718749998,"end":25889.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25890.263468750003,"end":25891.866593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25892.490968750004,"end":25906.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25907.594093749998,"end":25914.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25914.293468750002,"end":25918.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25918.29284375,"end":25918.765343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25918.90034375,"end":25934.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25921.65096875,"end":25921.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25921.701593750004,"end":25922.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":25922.039093749998,"end":25924.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25935.75846875,"end":25945.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25945.731593750003,"end":25961.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25947.40221875,"end":25948.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25948.684718750003,"end":25948.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25961.42534375,"end":25964.108468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25963.281593749998,"end":26001.554093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26001.655343750004,"end":26004.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26005.114718750003,"end":26019.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26019.96471875,"end":26025.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26025.179093750005,"end":26025.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26026.512218750002,"end":26030.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26030.47784375,"end":26036.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26036.90721875,"end":26047.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26048.044718750003,"end":26049.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26051.26784375,"end":26052.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26052.786593750003,"end":26062.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26062.287218750003,"end":26067.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26067.60284375,"end":26075.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26075.264093750004,"end":26079.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26080.37721875,"end":26096.054093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":26095.98659375,"end":26096.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26096.172218749998,"end":26101.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26101.437218749998,"end":26106.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26106.53346875,"end":26108.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26108.474093750003,"end":26122.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":26108.52471875,"end":26108.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26122.96971875,"end":26128.217843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26128.70721875,"end":26132.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26132.723468750002,"end":26150.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26151.58971875,"end":26152.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26152.872218750003,"end":26153.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26153.614718750003,"end":26167.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26167.671593749998,"end":26169.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26168.093468749998,"end":26174.505968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26174.86034375,"end":26179.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26180.02409375,"end":26184.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26184.968468749998,"end":26186.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26186.60534375,"end":26186.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26186.976593749998,"end":26188.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26188.562843749998,"end":26196.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26196.122843750003,"end":26196.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26196.17346875,"end":26196.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26196.240968750004,"end":26197.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26198.28284375,"end":26200.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26201.55659375,"end":26217.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26205.285968750002,"end":26205.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26211.79971875,"end":26235.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26232.623468750004,"end":26233.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26235.44159375,"end":26241.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26241.95534375,"end":26243.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26244.098468750002,"end":26245.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26245.279718750004,"end":26260.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26246.005343750003,"end":26246.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26258.138468750003,"end":26260.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26260.382843749998,"end":26264.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26264.871593750002,"end":26267.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26267.554718749998,"end":26270.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26270.355968750002,"end":26273.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26273.325968750003,"end":26275.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26275.80659375,"end":26279.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26279.772218750004,"end":26282.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26282.607218750003,"end":26284.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26284.851593749998,"end":26285.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26285.91471875,"end":26289.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26286.707843750002,"end":26292.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26291.787218750003,"end":26304.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26292.850343750004,"end":26293.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26293.559093750002,"end":26294.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26294.80784375,"end":26294.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26303.262218750002,"end":26303.312843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26303.599718750003,"end":26304.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26305.13534375,"end":26305.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26305.15221875,"end":26330.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26305.47284375,"end":26306.569718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26330.44784375,"end":26333.687843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26334.295343750004,"end":26339.475968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26339.72909375,"end":26345.584718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26340.67409375,"end":26340.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":26340.79221875,"end":26340.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26343.18846875,"end":26344.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26345.63534375,"end":26345.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26345.65221875,"end":26350.866593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26345.905343750004,"end":26346.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26350.090343750002,"end":26352.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26352.857843750004,"end":26354.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":26352.92534375,"end":26353.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":26354.207843750002,"end":26354.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":26354.730968750002,"end":26354.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":26354.764718750004,"end":26354.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26364.332843750002,"end":26365.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26365.58159375,"end":26369.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26371.622843750003,"end":26372.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26372.65221875,"end":26373.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26375.554718749998,"end":26377.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26380.00971875,"end":26385.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26385.257843749998,"end":26389.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26389.898468749998,"end":26390.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26393.32409375,"end":26394.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26410.36784375,"end":26411.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26411.700968750003,"end":26414.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26414.890343749998,"end":26416.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":26416.223468750002,"end":26416.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26425.217843750004,"end":26426.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26426.567843750003,"end":26427.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26428.474718750003,"end":26428.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26430.12846875,"end":26432.271593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26433.452843749998,"end":26434.380968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26435.224718750003,"end":26439.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26441.38409375,"end":26441.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26442.531593749998,"end":26443.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26445.062843749998,"end":26446.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26447.239718750003,"end":26450.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26451.42471875,"end":26452.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26452.740968750004,"end":26452.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26452.825343750003,"end":26452.859093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26452.926593750002,"end":26455.609718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26454.310343750003,"end":26455.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26455.677218750003,"end":26456.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26455.72784375,"end":26456.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26457.702218750004,"end":26460.756593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26461.937843749998,"end":26463.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26464.334093750003,"end":26465.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26465.835968749998,"end":26467.405343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26467.47284375,"end":26468.670968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26469.14346875,"end":26472.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26472.61971875,"end":26474.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26474.543468750002,"end":26479.622843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26480.71971875,"end":26481.327218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26483.520968750003,"end":26485.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26487.50346875,"end":26488.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26489.106593750003,"end":26491.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26492.700968750003,"end":26495.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26497.69596875,"end":26498.624093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26499.670343750004,"end":26500.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26500.952843749998,"end":26503.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26504.715968750003,"end":26506.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26506.47096875,"end":26508.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26508.91784375,"end":26509.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26511.044093750003,"end":26513.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26515.043468750002,"end":26518.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26519.194718750005,"end":26519.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26520.780968749998,"end":26522.687843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26524.81409375,"end":26525.624093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26526.906593749998,"end":26528.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26529.47159375,"end":26530.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26530.973468750002,"end":26531.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26533.03221875,"end":26535.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26536.609718749998,"end":26537.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26538.482843750004,"end":26539.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26541.351593749998,"end":26543.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26544.287843750004,"end":26544.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26545.40159375,"end":26549.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26549.957843750002,"end":26551.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26552.57346875,"end":26553.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26554.66596875,"end":26556.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26556.79221875,"end":26558.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26559.492218749998,"end":26560.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26561.162843750004,"end":26562.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26563.575968750003,"end":26565.179093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26566.022843750005,"end":26567.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26568.28409375,"end":26573.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26574.578468749998,"end":26576.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26577.12659375,"end":26578.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26579.320343749998,"end":26580.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26581.34534375,"end":26582.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26583.741593750005,"end":26586.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26586.475343750004,"end":26587.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26588.247218750003,"end":26591.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26593.242218749998,"end":26593.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26593.91721875,"end":26595.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26597.781593749998,"end":26600.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26601.156593749998,"end":26602.523468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26602.96221875,"end":26603.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26603.92409375,"end":26604.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26605.71284375,"end":26607.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26609.172218749998,"end":26611.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26611.21409375,"end":26612.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26613.795968750004,"end":26614.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26616.37784375,"end":26618.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26619.702218750004,"end":26621.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26622.756593750004,"end":26624.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26627.076593750004,"end":26628.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26630.232218750003,"end":26631.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26631.46409375,"end":26632.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26633.421593749998,"end":26635.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26635.851593749998,"end":26636.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26637.16784375,"end":26638.264718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26639.58096875,"end":26641.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26641.87596875,"end":26645.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26646.482843750004,"end":26647.545968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26647.68096875,"end":26650.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26650.87034375,"end":26652.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26654.54909375,"end":26655.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26657.09721875,"end":26657.569718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26658.56534375,"end":26660.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26662.24409375,"end":26664.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26665.652843750002,"end":26667.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26668.45409375,"end":26670.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26671.93034375,"end":26672.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26673.044093750003,"end":26678.882843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26679.64221875,"end":26681.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26681.78534375,"end":26682.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26683.65846875,"end":26685.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26686.71284375,"end":26688.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26689.092218750004,"end":26692.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26693.27721875,"end":26695.319093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26696.078468749998,"end":26698.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26699.47034375,"end":26701.765343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26701.90034375,"end":26703.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26704.094093749998,"end":26705.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26706.65909375,"end":26708.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26710.169093750003,"end":26710.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26712.480968750002,"end":26714.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26716.78409375,"end":26717.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26717.62784375,"end":26718.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26720.125343749998,"end":26721.374093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26723.365343750003,"end":26723.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26725.74471875,"end":26727.179093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26728.647218750004,"end":26732.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26733.625343749998,"end":26733.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26735.616593750005,"end":26737.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26738.755343750003,"end":26742.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26743.716593750003,"end":26744.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26745.825968750003,"end":26747.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26748.44159375,"end":26754.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26752.170968750004,"end":26753.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26755.36034375,"end":26758.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26756.592218750004,"end":26757.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26758.094093749998,"end":26760.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26761.68846875,"end":26763.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26763.93284375,"end":26765.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26766.66659375,"end":26769.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26770.395968750003,"end":26772.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26773.53471875,"end":26774.952218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26775.50909375,"end":26776.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26777.685968750004,"end":26783.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26785.83659375,"end":26788.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26789.78534375,"end":26791.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26793.00846875,"end":26793.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26794.51034375,"end":26795.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26796.029093750003,"end":26796.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26798.239718750003,"end":26800.146593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26801.513468750003,"end":26803.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26803.13346875,"end":26804.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26806.12034375,"end":26808.077843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26808.41534375,"end":26810.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26811.68909375,"end":26811.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26814.389093750004,"end":26817.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26818.506593750004,"end":26819.147843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26819.31659375,"end":26819.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26821.42596875,"end":26822.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26823.70409375,"end":26824.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26825.577218750004,"end":26826.218468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26826.960968749998,"end":26828.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26829.559718750003,"end":26829.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26830.38659375,"end":26832.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26833.154093750003,"end":26833.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26834.014718750004,"end":26835.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26835.55034375,"end":26836.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26836.25909375,"end":26837.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26837.389718750004,"end":26839.178468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26839.85346875,"end":26842.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26843.53221875,"end":26846.147843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26847.78471875,"end":26848.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26849.590343750002,"end":26851.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26851.58159375,"end":26854.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26854.281593749998,"end":26857.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26858.65221875,"end":26865.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26867.359718749998,"end":26872.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26872.590968750003,"end":26873.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26874.734093749998,"end":26876.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26877.40034375,"end":26879.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26880.724718750003,"end":26881.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26881.247843750003,"end":26883.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26884.639718750004,"end":26885.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26886.512843750003,"end":26888.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26888.824718750002,"end":26889.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26890.140968749998,"end":26892.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26892.06471875,"end":26892.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26893.802843750003,"end":26899.725968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26901.194093750004,"end":26903.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26903.708468750003,"end":26908.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26908.382843749998,"end":26911.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26912.061593750004,"end":26912.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26913.04034375,"end":26915.858468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26916.702218750004,"end":26917.022843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26918.592218750004,"end":26920.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26920.97159375,"end":26923.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26923.890968749998,"end":26925.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26926.405343750004,"end":26927.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26928.801593750002,"end":26930.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26931.82221875,"end":26935.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26936.192843750003,"end":26938.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26939.449718750002,"end":26939.905343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26940.37784375,"end":26940.765968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26941.069718750005,"end":26942.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26943.179093750005,"end":26945.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26946.014093750004,"end":26946.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26946.04784375,"end":26946.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26947.617218749998,"end":26951.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26948.224718750003,"end":26948.663468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26951.88659375,"end":26952.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26953.101593749998,"end":26954.147843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26954.62034375,"end":26956.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26956.679093750005,"end":26960.475968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26960.84721875,"end":26961.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26961.859718749998,"end":26962.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26963.091593750003,"end":26964.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26964.492218749998,"end":26968.609718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26969.132843749998,"end":26972.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26969.14971875,"end":26969.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26972.153468750003,"end":26972.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26973.115343750003,"end":26978.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26978.414093749998,"end":26978.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26978.903468750003,"end":26982.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26981.41784375,"end":26982.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26982.936593750004,"end":26985.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26985.63659375,"end":26986.092218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26986.48034375,"end":26986.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26987.172218749998,"end":26989.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26990.44596875,"end":26991.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26992.960343750005,"end":27001.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26996.35221875,"end":26996.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":26996.67284375,"end":26997.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27001.02659375,"end":27001.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27002.309093750002,"end":27005.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27005.481593750003,"end":27013.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27010.037843750004,"end":27010.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27013.04159375,"end":27013.412843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27013.68284375,"end":27015.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27014.459093750003,"end":27021.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27021.58034375,"end":27030.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27021.614093750002,"end":27021.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27029.528468750003,"end":27031.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27031.58721875,"end":27036.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27034.793468750002,"end":27035.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27035.08034375,"end":27035.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27035.957843750002,"end":27038.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27038.505968750003,"end":27040.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27040.90221875,"end":27048.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27049.154093750003,"end":27050.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27051.398468749998,"end":27052.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27052.79909375,"end":27053.490968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27053.929718749998,"end":27061.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27062.28284375,"end":27063.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27064.39221875,"end":27065.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27065.742218749998,"end":27067.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27066.231593750003,"end":27066.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27066.265343749998,"end":27066.889718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27067.58159375,"end":27069.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27070.129718750002,"end":27071.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27070.53471875,"end":27071.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27071.27721875,"end":27071.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27071.614718750003,"end":27076.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27077.031593749998,"end":27079.866593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27079.866593750005,"end":27085.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27080.254718750002,"end":27080.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27085.78971875,"end":27089.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27086.059718750003,"end":27086.819093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27089.856593750003,"end":27090.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27091.51034375,"end":27103.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27102.968468749998,"end":27105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27105.02721875,"end":27106.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27107.474093750003,"end":27109.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27109.515968749998,"end":27110.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27110.91659375,"end":27112.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27112.958468750003,"end":27115.185968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27114.561593750004,"end":27115.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27115.185968750004,"end":27115.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27115.692218750002,"end":27119.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27115.827218750004,"end":27116.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27116.06346875,"end":27116.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27116.09721875,"end":27116.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27118.52721875,"end":27119.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":27119.168468750002,"end":27119.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27119.26971875,"end":27119.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":27119.303468750004,"end":27119.320343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27119.320343749998,"end":27124.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27125.412218750003,"end":27127.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27128.12909375,"end":27131.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27132.465968750003,"end":27134.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27135.098468750002,"end":27138.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27140.22846875,"end":27141.139718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27141.39284375,"end":27142.405343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27142.084718750004,"end":27144.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27144.64971875,"end":27147.062843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27147.990968750004,"end":27156.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27157.390343749998,"end":27159.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27159.44909375,"end":27159.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27159.820343749998,"end":27160.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27160.107218750003,"end":27160.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27160.78221875,"end":27165.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27161.84534375,"end":27161.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27165.929093750005,"end":27166.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27167.14409375,"end":27174.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27174.60284375,"end":27177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27177.724718750003,"end":27179.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27180.44159375,"end":27182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27183.546593749998,"end":27186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27187.140968749998,"end":27194.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27195.05534375,"end":27200.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27200.77596875,"end":27204.420968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27205.028468750003,"end":27207.677843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27205.770968750003,"end":27209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27208.200968750003,"end":27209.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27209.027843750002,"end":27209.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27209.11221875,"end":27210.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27209.12909375,"end":27209.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27210.023468749998,"end":27210.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27210.732218750003,"end":27210.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27211.289093749998,"end":27212.436593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27211.54221875,"end":27212.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27213.21284375,"end":27221.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27216.16596875,"end":27217.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27220.51971875,"end":27221.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27222.578468749998,"end":27226.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27226.763468750003,"end":27226.780343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27226.797218749998,"end":27231.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27227.15159375,"end":27230.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27232.07909375,"end":27236.685968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27232.51784375,"end":27232.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27234.64409375,"end":27234.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27235.335968749998,"end":27236.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27237.630968750003,"end":27239.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27239.57159375,"end":27240.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27241.309718750003,"end":27246.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27246.76034375,"end":27252.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27252.295343750004,"end":27262.960343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27253.240343750003,"end":27254.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27256.54784375,"end":27257.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27262.538468750005,"end":27267.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27269.23784375,"end":27272.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27272.27534375,"end":27272.325968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27272.444093750004,"end":27279.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27279.44721875,"end":27280.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27279.64971875,"end":27284.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27280.965968750003,"end":27281.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27281.89409375,"end":27284.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27284.22284375,"end":27284.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27284.796593749998,"end":27284.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27285.26909375,"end":27293.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27292.12034375,"end":27293.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27293.875343749998,"end":27294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27295.444718750005,"end":27299.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27299.730968750002,"end":27300.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27301.18221875,"end":27302.194718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27302.920343750004,"end":27305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27306.092843750004,"end":27307.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27308.01659375,"end":27309.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27310.24409375,"end":27310.632218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27311.08784375,"end":27313.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27312.55596875,"end":27315.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27316.234718749998,"end":27316.319093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27316.319093750004,"end":27316.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27316.35284375,"end":27316.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27316.38659375,"end":27316.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27316.656593749998,"end":27329.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":27320.115968750004,"end":27322.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":27329.95409375,"end":27331.523468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27336.062843749998,"end":27336.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":27337.598468750002,"end":27338.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":27348.887843750003,"end":27352.515968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":27358.75971875,"end":27360.632843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":27360.953468749998,"end":27361.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":27959.121593750002,"end":27962.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27977.177843750003,"end":27980.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":27981.210968749998,"end":27983.320343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27992.31471875,"end":27994.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27995.25096875,"end":28001.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28001.629718750002,"end":28004.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28005.561593750004,"end":28010.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28010.65784375,"end":28011.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28011.872843750003,"end":28013.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28015.09596875,"end":28015.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28015.703468749998,"end":28015.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28015.72034375,"end":28015.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28015.73721875,"end":28015.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28016.14221875,"end":28018.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28019.061593750004,"end":28020.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28021.272218750004,"end":28022.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28023.02721875,"end":28025.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28023.22971875,"end":28023.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28025.170343750004,"end":28029.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28029.64221875,"end":28029.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28029.65909375,"end":28029.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28029.726593749998,"end":28030.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28030.030343750004,"end":28036.155968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28031.56596875,"end":28032.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28034.41784375,"end":28035.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28035.58221875,"end":28042.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28040.93159375,"end":28044.272843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28044.40784375,"end":28049.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28048.22159375,"end":28048.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":28048.62659375,"end":28048.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":28048.812218750005,"end":28048.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28048.84596875,"end":28048.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28049.35221875,"end":28060.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28060.77659375,"end":28064.843468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28065.09659375,"end":28066.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28067.00346875,"end":28075.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28075.677218750003,"end":28076.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28076.25096875,"end":28081.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28081.802843750003,"end":28084.570343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28085.34659375,"end":28086.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28087.33784375,"end":28093.632218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28094.037218750003,"end":28098.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28098.677843750003,"end":28102.390343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28102.390343750005,"end":28105.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28106.288468750005,"end":28107.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28108.11096875,"end":28111.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28112.14409375,"end":28119.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28118.79284375,"end":28129.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28122.404093750003,"end":28123.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28124.209718750004,"end":28125.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28128.98534375,"end":28137.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28131.904718750004,"end":28132.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28133.74409375,"end":28147.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28148.29034375,"end":28149.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28149.218468750005,"end":28154.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28150.990343750003,"end":28151.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":28151.395343750002,"end":28151.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28151.46284375,"end":28151.530343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28152.660968750002,"end":28158.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28158.33096875,"end":28166.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28166.78534375,"end":28170.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28170.78471875,"end":28171.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28171.49346875,"end":28180.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28181.162843750004,"end":28186.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28186.59659375,"end":28188.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28188.942218750002,"end":28192.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28192.80659375,"end":28202.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28202.84721875,"end":28214.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28214.912843750004,"end":28236.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":28226.55659375,"end":28226.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28226.97846875,"end":28228.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28228.294718750003,"end":28228.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28232.547218749998,"end":28245.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28245.929093750005,"end":28247.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28247.279093750003,"end":28252.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28247.295968750004,"end":28249.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28251.36284375,"end":28260.677843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28260.74534375,"end":28281.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28282.58159375,"end":28283.779718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":28282.64909375,"end":28282.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28284.015968749998,"end":28295.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28295.912843750004,"end":28305.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28306.07159375,"end":28310.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28310.83034375,"end":28322.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28323.82409375,"end":28335.585968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28334.826593750004,"end":28336.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28335.889718750004,"end":28341.053468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28337.999093750004,"end":28339.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28340.59784375,"end":28350.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28350.942218750002,"end":28360.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28361.303468750004,"end":28363.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28364.442218750002,"end":28369.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28370.51721875,"end":28371.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28372.035968750002,"end":28388.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28387.763468750003,"end":28391.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28391.256593750004,"end":28395.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28395.475343750004,"end":28397.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28397.989718750003,"end":28402.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28400.301593750002,"end":28401.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28401.22971875,"end":28401.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28402.88346875,"end":28409.076593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28409.65034375,"end":28418.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28418.340968750003,"end":28436.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28436.414093749998,"end":28439.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28440.818468750003,"end":28441.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28441.459718750004,"end":28445.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28446.606593750003,"end":28480.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":28446.65721875,"end":28447.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":28450.36971875,"end":28451.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28466.215343750002,"end":28466.569718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28481.200343750003,"end":28486.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28487.71409375,"end":28492.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28492.844093749998,"end":28498.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28499.594093749998,"end":28499.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28500.65721875,"end":28502.108468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28502.226593749998,"end":28506.225968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28508.77409375,"end":28509.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28510.19159375,"end":28512.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28513.34721875,"end":28516.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28514.444093750004,"end":28514.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28514.528468750003,"end":28514.545343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28514.68034375,"end":28521.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28516.94159375,"end":28517.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28520.249093750004,"end":28528.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28528.551593750002,"end":28530.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28530.42471875,"end":28533.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28533.732218750003,"end":28537.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28535.36909375,"end":28541.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28541.359718749998,"end":28546.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28546.185968750004,"end":28548.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28547.789093749998,"end":28550.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28550.01659375,"end":28550.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28550.910968750002,"end":28552.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28552.76721875,"end":28552.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28552.78409375,"end":28554.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28554.539093749998,"end":28554.640343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28554.640343750005,"end":28554.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28554.65721875,"end":28554.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28554.67409375,"end":28554.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28554.99471875,"end":28557.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28555.07909375,"end":28558.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28558.36971875,"end":28568.984093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28567.684718750003,"end":28575.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28575.64971875,"end":28585.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28583.850968750005,"end":28595.241593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28585.97721875,"end":28587.327218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28588.356593750003,"end":28590.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28593.26721875,"end":28607.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28607.880968750003,"end":28610.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28609.95659375,"end":28623.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28623.87846875,"end":28624.553468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28624.772843750005,"end":28629.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28629.953468749998,"end":28629.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28629.97034375,"end":28642.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28634.695343749998,"end":28638.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28642.20471875,"end":28645.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28643.723468750002,"end":28647.233468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28646.490968750004,"end":28647.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28647.233468750004,"end":28647.452843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28647.452843750005,"end":28647.554093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28647.554093750005,"end":28654.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28654.489718750003,"end":28691.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28692.559718750003,"end":28693.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28693.48784375,"end":28694.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28695.529718750004,"end":28706.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28706.97096875,"end":28711.577843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28711.864718750003,"end":28717.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28717.85534375,"end":28718.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28719.914093749998,"end":28726.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28720.16721875,"end":28721.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28723.08659375,"end":28724.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28725.41534375,"end":28744.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28730.849093750003,"end":28734.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28744.669718750003,"end":28745.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28746.171593750005,"end":28751.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28751.57159375,"end":28759.249718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28759.334093750003,"end":28764.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28766.219093749998,"end":28766.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28766.25284375,"end":28766.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28766.910968750002,"end":28772.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28772.17596875,"end":28774.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28774.58909375,"end":28777.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28774.69034375,"end":28775.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28777.812218750005,"end":28785.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28785.152843750002,"end":28789.101593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28785.45659375,"end":28786.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28787.684093750002,"end":28790.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28789.388468750003,"end":28797.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28792.40909375,"end":28793.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28796.40846875,"end":28799.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28797.58971875,"end":28803.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28799.817218750002,"end":28816.101593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28816.945343749998,"end":28819.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28819.881593750004,"end":28837.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28837.95471875,"end":28840.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28840.452218750004,"end":28845.734093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28841.279093750003,"end":28843.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28843.97909375,"end":28847.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28845.919718750003,"end":28847.202218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28847.910968750002,"end":28851.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28847.97846875,"end":28849.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":28850.62784375,"end":28853.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28852.247843750003,"end":28853.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28854.559718750003,"end":28861.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28862.42346875,"end":28865.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28865.207843750002,"end":28871.249093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28872.632843749998,"end":28873.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28874.35409375,"end":28874.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28874.387843750003,"end":28874.505968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28874.505968750003,"end":28877.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28874.53971875,"end":28875.687218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28875.754718750002,"end":28877.054093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28877.577218750004,"end":28886.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28886.402843750002,"end":28892.882843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28893.389093750004,"end":28893.405968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28893.405968750005,"end":28893.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28893.574718750002,"end":28893.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28893.96284375,"end":28894.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28894.06409375,"end":28894.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28894.94159375,"end":28896.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28896.645968750003,"end":28898.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28898.130968750003,"end":28898.147843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28903.86846875,"end":28907.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28909.960343750005,"end":28912.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28912.96409375,"end":28914.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28916.085968749998,"end":28916.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28916.811593750004,"end":28917.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28917.99284375,"end":28921.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28922.279093750003,"end":28927.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28927.51034375,"end":28930.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28931.71221875,"end":28934.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":28934.05784375,"end":28935.694718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28944.68909375,"end":28962.171593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28962.458468750003,"end":28965.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28966.30596875,"end":28971.554093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28972.262843750003,"end":28974.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28975.570343749998,"end":28977.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28977.73034375,"end":28978.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28978.47284375,"end":28978.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28979.130968750003,"end":28982.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28983.366593750005,"end":28985.273468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28985.442218750002,"end":28986.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28987.18034375,"end":28989.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28989.880343750003,"end":28991.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28991.33159375,"end":28992.867218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":28993.289093749998,"end":28995.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28995.600968750005,"end":29013.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29012.459093750003,"end":29022.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29015.429093750005,"end":29015.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29018.61846875,"end":29023.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29023.326593750004,"end":29023.849718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29023.88346875,"end":29024.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29024.94659375,"end":29036.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29024.96346875,"end":29028.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29036.89409375,"end":29090.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29057.86971875,"end":29058.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29090.35409375,"end":29093.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29094.16784375,"end":29106.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29106.655343750004,"end":29108.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29106.90846875,"end":29110.350968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29109.45659375,"end":29111.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29111.65034375,"end":29119.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":29117.35409375,"end":29119.412843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29119.412843750004,"end":29159.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29159.42346875,"end":29160.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29161.515968749998,"end":29166.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29166.47721875,"end":29172.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29173.36221875,"end":29178.694718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29179.217843750004,"end":29180.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29180.804093750005,"end":29195.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29192.734718749998,"end":29206.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29206.825343750003,"end":29217.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29217.45659375,"end":29230.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29228.138468750003,"end":29288.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29288.82096875,"end":29289.647843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29290.457843750002,"end":29291.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29292.34784375,"end":29293.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29293.37721875,"end":29294.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29294.84534375,"end":29295.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29295.99284375,"end":29296.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29298.270968750003,"end":29299.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29298.33846875,"end":29301.443468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29300.11034375,"end":29302.945343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29302.96221875,"end":29304.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29304.98721875,"end":29307.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29307.82221875,"end":29312.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29310.825968750003,"end":29318.436593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29316.090968750003,"end":29319.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29319.381593750004,"end":29335.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29323.279718750004,"end":29324.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":29324.967218750004,"end":29326.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29326.09784375,"end":29326.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":29326.975343750004,"end":29327.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29327.380343750003,"end":29327.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":29329.45596875,"end":29329.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":29329.47284375,"end":29329.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29329.506593750004,"end":29329.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29329.607843750004,"end":29329.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29329.64159375,"end":29330.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":29330.265968749998,"end":29330.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29334.11346875,"end":29334.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29334.552218750003,"end":29342.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29340.96471875,"end":29345.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29344.32284375,"end":29344.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29345.014718750004,"end":29355.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29354.98784375,"end":29359.679093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29356.45596875,"end":29361.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29361.569093750004,"end":29364.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29363.42534375,"end":29372.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29371.62659375,"end":29373.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29374.529093750003,"end":29377.718468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29377.819718750005,"end":29377.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29377.83659375,"end":29378.140343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29378.359718749998,"end":29396.584718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29397.124718750005,"end":29415.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29415.63659375,"end":29497.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29497.88534375,"end":29509.343468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29509.59659375,"end":29515.350968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29515.890968749998,"end":29525.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29526.48846875,"end":29526.741593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29527.365968750004,"end":29537.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29537.389718750004,"end":29537.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29538.26721875,"end":29541.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29541.97971875,"end":29549.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29549.944718750005,"end":29557.960343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29551.952843750005,"end":29552.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29552.00346875,"end":29552.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29552.037218750003,"end":29568.068468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":29564.33909375,"end":29574.734093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29574.32909375,"end":29583.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29583.84659375,"end":29632.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29633.18909375,"end":29633.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29633.340968750003,"end":29637.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29637.694718750005,"end":29642.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29641.42409375,"end":29643.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29643.31409375,"end":29645.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29643.34784375,"end":29659.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29645.811593750004,"end":29646.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29659.092218750004,"end":29665.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29663.68221875,"end":29679.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29674.75221875,"end":29675.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29679.37596875,"end":29687.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29685.231593750003,"end":29686.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29687.543468750002,"end":29690.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29687.64471875,"end":29702.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29699.98034375,"end":29704.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29703.33846875,"end":29704.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29704.94159375,"end":29729.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29704.958468750003,"end":29705.194718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29730.01784375,"end":29742.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29743.382843749998,"end":29750.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29750.335343750005,"end":29751.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29751.43221875,"end":29753.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29754.233468750004,"end":29755.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29755.87034375,"end":29761.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29761.96221875,"end":29762.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29762.90721875,"end":29765.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29765.99534375,"end":29769.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29771.091593750003,"end":29771.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29772.22221875,"end":29777.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29778.179093750005,"end":29784.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29784.389093750004,"end":29786.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29787.30846875,"end":29787.780968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29788.000343749998,"end":29830.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":29830.035968750002,"end":29838.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29837.61284375,"end":29846.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":29846.01659375,"end":29847.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":29847.94034375,"end":29851.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":29852.02409375,"end":29852.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":29854.26846875,"end":29858.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":29867.684093750002,"end":29872.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":29872.84784375,"end":29873.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":29873.826593750004,"end":29876.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":29873.86034375,"end":29874.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":29875.429718749998,"end":29876.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":29876.83034375,"end":29877.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29885.436593750004,"end":29886.077843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29887.49534375,"end":29888.069093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29889.030968750005,"end":29889.773468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29890.00971875,"end":29891.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29891.444093750004,"end":29895.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29896.21971875,"end":29903.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29904.100343750004,"end":29905.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29905.484093750005,"end":29906.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29907.812843749998,"end":29910.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29910.88409375,"end":29911.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29912.36909375,"end":29917.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29917.583468750003,"end":29923.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29924.40096875,"end":29925.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29926.84784375,"end":29927.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29928.434093750002,"end":29929.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29930.796593750005,"end":29933.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29933.952218750004,"end":29936.280968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29936.73659375,"end":29938.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29938.76159375,"end":29950.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29951.249093750004,"end":29952.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29952.98721875,"end":29963.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29964.428468750004,"end":29967.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29967.83721875,"end":29972.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29972.59596875,"end":29974.047218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29974.148468749998,"end":29977.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29978.62034375,"end":29994.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29994.83721875,"end":29998.819718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":29999.79846875,"end":30001.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30001.334093750003,"end":30001.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30002.34659375,"end":30003.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30003.47721875,"end":30004.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30005.19846875,"end":30011.357843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30011.560343750003,"end":30017.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30018.25971875,"end":30020.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30021.398468749998,"end":30023.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30024.06471875,"end":30027.287843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30027.726593749998,"end":30036.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30037.56471875,"end":30037.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30037.88534375,"end":30042.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30043.302218750003,"end":30050.811593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30051.115343750003,"end":30054.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30054.74346875,"end":30057.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30057.93284375,"end":30058.827218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30059.114093750002,"end":30063.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30064.44659375,"end":30071.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30071.83784375,"end":30073.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30073.710968749998,"end":30086.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30087.56534375,"end":30092.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30093.33659375,"end":30097.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30097.825343750003,"end":30099.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30099.934718750003,"end":30100.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30101.06534375,"end":30105.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30105.351593749998,"end":30109.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30109.40159375,"end":30114.818468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30115.324718750002,"end":30121.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30122.02409375,"end":30122.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30123.54284375,"end":30128.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30128.89221875,"end":30133.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30133.56659375,"end":30137.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30138.679718749998,"end":30139.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30139.405343750004,"end":30145.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30145.429718749998,"end":30148.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30148.990343750003,"end":30152.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30153.090968750003,"end":30155.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30156.162218750003,"end":30157.343468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30157.78221875,"end":30159.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30160.617218749998,"end":30161.359718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30161.882843749998,"end":30163.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30163.975343750004,"end":30166.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30166.65846875,"end":30178.538468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30178.77471875,"end":30179.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30180.24284375,"end":30182.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30182.77409375,"end":30183.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30184.29284375,"end":30185.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30185.490968750004,"end":30188.882843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30189.11909375,"end":30192.983468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30193.169093750003,"end":30203.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30204.12096875,"end":30206.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30207.192218750002,"end":30210.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30210.95534375,"end":30212.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30212.98034375,"end":30213.030968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30213.08159375,"end":30213.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30214.195343749998,"end":30216.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30217.131593750004,"end":30217.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30217.890968749998,"end":30220.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30220.810343750003,"end":30221.991593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30222.295343750004,"end":30224.100968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30224.202218750004,"end":30229.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30229.19721875,"end":30233.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30234.66471875,"end":30236.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30236.92596875,"end":30238.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30239.085968749998,"end":30240.452843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30240.82409375,"end":30241.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30243.13596875,"end":30245.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30245.54909375,"end":30246.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30246.983468750004,"end":30247.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30247.89471875,"end":30249.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30249.24471875,"end":30254.054093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30254.340968750003,"end":30261.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30261.36096875,"end":30262.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30263.04846875,"end":30264.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30265.05659375,"end":30265.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30266.44034375,"end":30268.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30269.68034375,"end":30271.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30271.317218750002,"end":30276.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30272.97096875,"end":30273.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30277.27409375,"end":30277.577843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30278.69159375,"end":30282.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30282.539093749998,"end":30290.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30290.06534375,"end":30293.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30294.014093750004,"end":30297.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30298.637843750003,"end":30298.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30299.481593750003,"end":30299.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30299.97096875,"end":30301.624718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30302.569718750005,"end":30303.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30303.98721875,"end":30309.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30309.67409375,"end":30311.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30311.547218749998,"end":30314.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30314.264093750004,"end":30316.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30316.84596875,"end":30322.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30323.29221875,"end":30324.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30324.692843750003,"end":30326.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30327.679718749998,"end":30338.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30339.08721875,"end":30351.085343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30351.55784375,"end":30352.671593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30353.194718750005,"end":30354.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30355.101593749998,"end":30365.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30366.01971875,"end":30367.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30368.179718749998,"end":30369.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30369.17534375,"end":30369.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30370.33971875,"end":30373.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30373.005968750003,"end":30374.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30375.18284375,"end":30376.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30376.499093750004,"end":30389.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":30384.615968750004,"end":30385.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30389.273468749998,"end":30390.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30390.437843749998,"end":30391.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30392.412218750003,"end":30393.576593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30394.38659375,"end":30395.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30396.428468750004,"end":30399.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30399.044093750003,"end":30399.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30399.584093750003,"end":30419.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30419.834093750003,"end":30424.491593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30425.234093750005,"end":30425.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30426.55034375,"end":30428.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30429.115343750003,"end":30436.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30436.64159375,"end":30437.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30438.36284375,"end":30443.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30443.64471875,"end":30451.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30452.47034375,"end":30453.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30453.93846875,"end":30457.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30458.17409375,"end":30460.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30460.68846875,"end":30461.093468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30462.038468750005,"end":30463.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30464.28284375,"end":30491.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30491.772218750004,"end":30493.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30493.577843750005,"end":30495.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30495.53534375,"end":30496.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30496.80096875,"end":30497.577218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30498.15096875,"end":30499.484093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30499.93971875,"end":30502.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30503.061593750004,"end":30505.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30506.132843749998,"end":30506.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30508.545968750004,"end":30510.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30511.76909375,"end":30512.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30512.47784375,"end":30513.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30513.473468750002,"end":30513.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30514.215968750003,"end":30514.755968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30515.616593750005,"end":30516.460343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30516.61221875,"end":30521.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30522.09659375,"end":30526.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30526.75409375,"end":30528.272843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30528.54284375,"end":30529.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30530.922218749998,"end":30535.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30536.00159375,"end":30542.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30539.140343750005,"end":30541.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30542.02596875,"end":30542.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30542.97096875,"end":30543.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30543.038468750005,"end":30548.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30546.312218750005,"end":30546.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30549.585968749998,"end":30560.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30561.11159375,"end":30564.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30565.22909375,"end":30568.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30569.177843750003,"end":30570.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30571.169093750003,"end":30572.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30572.94096875,"end":30573.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30573.97034375,"end":30574.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30574.881593750004,"end":30576.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30576.94034375,"end":30578.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30579.015968749998,"end":30579.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30580.53471875,"end":30581.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30582.239093750002,"end":30583.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30583.437218750005,"end":30584.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30585.69846875,"end":30589.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30586.373468750004,"end":30595.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30590.153468750003,"end":30590.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30595.09784375,"end":30595.249718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30595.249718750005,"end":30596.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30596.00909375,"end":30596.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30596.21159375,"end":30596.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30596.414093749998,"end":30596.515343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30596.515343750005,"end":30596.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30596.903468750003,"end":30596.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30596.920343750004,"end":30597.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30597.021593750003,"end":30597.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30598.43909375,"end":30602.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30600.278468750003,"end":30600.295343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30600.295343750004,"end":30601.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30601.965968750003,"end":30602.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30603.18096875,"end":30606.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30606.97784375,"end":30608.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30608.952218750004,"end":30613.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30614.60534375,"end":30615.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30616.225343750004,"end":30619.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30619.43159375,"end":30620.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30621.405968750005,"end":30625.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30625.590968750003,"end":30629.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30630.974093750003,"end":30634.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30635.02409375,"end":30638.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30638.85471875,"end":30642.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30643.107218750003,"end":30644.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30645.30096875,"end":30648.827843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30649.82346875,"end":30650.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30650.88659375,"end":30658.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30659.40846875,"end":30661.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30662.125343749998,"end":30668.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30668.89221875,"end":30669.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30670.36034375,"end":30675.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30676.249718750005,"end":30685.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30685.075343750003,"end":30689.850968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30690.40784375,"end":30691.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30691.724093750003,"end":30694.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30695.16659375,"end":30695.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30696.19596875,"end":30700.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30701.005343750003,"end":30702.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30702.65909375,"end":30706.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30706.607843750004,"end":30711.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30711.82221875,"end":30713.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30713.84721875,"end":30715.484093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30715.53471875,"end":30716.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30716.513468750003,"end":30718.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30719.71971875,"end":30730.350968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30731.43096875,"end":30732.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30732.544718750003,"end":30733.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30733.43909375,"end":30734.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30735.700343750003,"end":30736.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30737.01659375,"end":30741.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30741.47159375,"end":30742.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30742.804718749998,"end":30749.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30744.84659375,"end":30744.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30750.060968750004,"end":30750.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30750.145343750002,"end":30750.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30750.33096875,"end":30750.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30750.76971875,"end":30750.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30750.97221875,"end":30750.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30750.989093750002,"end":30752.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30753.419093750003,"end":30755.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30755.882843749998,"end":30756.827843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30757.317218750002,"end":30758.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30758.582843750002,"end":30759.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30760.506593750004,"end":30768.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30768.927218750003,"end":30771.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30772.03221875,"end":30773.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30773.11221875,"end":30775.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30776.942843750003,"end":30777.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30778.17471875,"end":30784.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30784.840343750002,"end":30788.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30788.62034375,"end":30789.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":30790.240343750003,"end":30791.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30800.382218750005,"end":30801.867218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30801.934718750003,"end":30805.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30802.10346875,"end":30802.170968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30802.289093749998,"end":30802.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30806.676593750002,"end":30807.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30808.00971875,"end":30811.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30810.608468750004,"end":30810.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30810.726593749998,"end":30810.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30811.62096875,"end":30811.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30811.890968749998,"end":30812.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30812.700968750003,"end":30820.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30820.716593750003,"end":30822.842843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":30823.11284375,"end":30833.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30838.19909375,"end":30838.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30838.62096875,"end":30838.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30845.202218750004,"end":30845.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30846.029093750003,"end":30847.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30847.76721875,"end":30848.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30848.61096875,"end":30850.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30850.872218750003,"end":30851.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30855.833468750003,"end":30859.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30856.052843750003,"end":30856.609718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30862.802843750003,"end":30863.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30863.730968750002,"end":30864.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30869.130968750003,"end":30870.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30871.42596875,"end":30871.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30872.320343749998,"end":30875.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30876.404093750003,"end":30878.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30888.16596875,"end":30888.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30888.216593750003,"end":30888.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30888.36846875,"end":30888.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30888.38534375,"end":30888.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30888.419093750003,"end":30888.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30888.739718750003,"end":30889.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30890.528468750003,"end":30897.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30897.76784375,"end":30900.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30900.771593750003,"end":30903.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30904.09596875,"end":30906.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30906.660968750002,"end":30909.546593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30909.69846875,"end":30912.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30912.63471875,"end":30915.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30915.638468750003,"end":30924.734093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30925.375343749998,"end":30926.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30926.607218750003,"end":30927.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30927.974093750003,"end":30929.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30929.779718750004,"end":30931.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30931.85534375,"end":30938.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30938.60534375,"end":30942.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30943.12784375,"end":30945.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30945.97971875,"end":30950.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30950.147843750005,"end":30950.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":30950.18159375,"end":30950.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":30950.38409375,"end":30957.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30950.73846875,"end":30950.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30956.74596875,"end":30957.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30957.539093749998,"end":30958.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30959.294093750003,"end":30963.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30963.934718750003,"end":30967.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30968.069093750004,"end":30970.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30970.87034375,"end":30973.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30973.890968749998,"end":30980.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30980.99534375,"end":30986.749718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30986.952218750004,"end":30988.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30989.027843750002,"end":30993.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30994.242218749998,"end":30996.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30996.554093750005,"end":30999.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31000.36784375,"end":31002.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31003.35471875,"end":31005.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31005.480968750002,"end":31006.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31007.286593750003,"end":31012.686593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31012.75409375,"end":31018.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31018.74471875,"end":31022.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31024.02659375,"end":31024.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31024.785968750002,"end":31025.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31026.270968750003,"end":31026.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31027.418468750002,"end":31030.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31031.249093750004,"end":31032.632843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31033.054718749998,"end":31033.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31034.37096875,"end":31035.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31036.109093750005,"end":31039.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31039.61909375,"end":31044.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31044.98534375,"end":31046.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31045.289093749998,"end":31056.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31056.93284375,"end":31057.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31058.40096875,"end":31060.780343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31061.100968750005,"end":31062.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31062.670343750004,"end":31070.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31070.55096875,"end":31071.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31072.00221875,"end":31076.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31076.42346875,"end":31077.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31077.452843750005,"end":31079.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31079.747843750003,"end":31080.608468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31081.030343750004,"end":31085.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31085.28284375,"end":31086.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31086.919718750003,"end":31088.843468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31088.97846875,"end":31092.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31093.07909375,"end":31099.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31093.11284375,"end":31094.007218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":31094.007218750005,"end":31094.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31099.84596875,"end":31104.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31104.46971875,"end":31111.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31111.287218750003,"end":31111.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31112.451593750004,"end":31120.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31121.26034375,"end":31127.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31128.044093750003,"end":31131.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31131.30096875,"end":31136.515343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31135.334093750003,"end":31143.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31143.29909375,"end":31146.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31143.366593750005,"end":31143.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31144.12596875,"end":31145.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31147.163468750005,"end":31147.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31147.63596875,"end":31149.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31148.108468750004,"end":31148.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31149.01971875,"end":31151.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31152.107843750004,"end":31158.030968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31158.18284375,"end":31164.443468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31164.527843750002,"end":31168.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31168.61159375,"end":31168.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":31168.62846875,"end":31168.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31168.662218750003,"end":31168.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":31168.72971875,"end":31168.797218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31168.797218749998,"end":31174.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31175.27721875,"end":31184.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31184.20409375,"end":31204.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31204.16721875,"end":31204.217843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":31204.217843750004,"end":31204.234718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31204.234718749998,"end":31205.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":31204.26846875,"end":31204.521593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31206.006593750004,"end":31206.647843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31207.32284375,"end":31218.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31219.15221875,"end":31229.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31227.45471875,"end":31229.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31229.429093750005,"end":31229.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31229.44596875,"end":31230.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31231.16721875,"end":31232.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31232.787218750003,"end":31236.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31237.005968750003,"end":31240.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31240.41471875,"end":31241.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31241.69721875,"end":31245.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31245.81471875,"end":31255.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31246.624718750005,"end":31246.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31255.686593750004,"end":31256.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31256.850968750005,"end":31259.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31259.365343750003,"end":31261.812218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31262.28471875,"end":31262.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31263.499718750005,"end":31265.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31265.710343750005,"end":31267.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31267.515968749998,"end":31268.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31268.646593750003,"end":31269.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31270.047218749998,"end":31272.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31273.101593749998,"end":31274.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":31275.059093750002,"end":31275.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31275.24471875,"end":31283.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31275.43034375,"end":31275.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31283.513468750003,"end":31285.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31286.29784375,"end":31287.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31287.850343750004,"end":31294.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31294.54971875,"end":31303.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31303.94909375,"end":31306.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31307.172218749998,"end":31313.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31314.006593750004,"end":31328.046593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31328.249093750004,"end":31333.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31333.26096875,"end":31339.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31340.280968750005,"end":31345.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31347.90846875,"end":31347.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31347.92534375,"end":31348.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31348.161593750003,"end":31348.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":31349.08971875,"end":31362.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31362.302843750003,"end":31367.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31367.078468749998,"end":31370.014718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31370.06534375,"end":31371.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31372.05659375,"end":31373.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31374.520343750002,"end":31379.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31380.07221875,"end":31392.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31392.82971875,"end":31395.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31395.765968749998,"end":31399.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31400.13659375,"end":31402.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31402.262843750003,"end":31403.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":31405.739093750002,"end":31433.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31420.724093750003,"end":31421.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":31421.027843750002,"end":31421.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31421.061593750004,"end":31421.382218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31432.92471875,"end":31441.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31441.514093750004,"end":31450.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31451.04846875,"end":31455.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31455.79034375,"end":31457.342843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31457.764718750004,"end":31470.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31470.859718749998,"end":31476.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31476.107843750004,"end":31476.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31477.52534375,"end":31482.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31482.250343749998,"end":31483.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31483.617218749998,"end":31484.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31484.91659375,"end":31486.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31485.74346875,"end":31486.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31486.30034375,"end":31486.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31486.334093750003,"end":31507.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31508.254718750002,"end":31511.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31512.152843750002,"end":31513.452218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31513.452218750004,"end":31518.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31518.717218750004,"end":31528.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31529.044718750003,"end":31532.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31532.335343750005,"end":31536.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31536.756593750004,"end":31548.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31549.22721875,"end":31551.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31551.825968750003,"end":31552.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31552.770968750003,"end":31552.905968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31552.905968750005,"end":31552.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31552.92284375,"end":31552.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31552.973468750002,"end":31555.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31555.335968749998,"end":31556.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31556.73659375,"end":31558.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31559.14971875,"end":31561.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31562.069093750004,"end":31563.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31563.72284375,"end":31565.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31565.05596875,"end":31565.224718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31565.224718750003,"end":31565.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31565.25846875,"end":31565.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31565.27534375,"end":31565.342843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31565.71409375,"end":31567.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31565.849093750003,"end":31566.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31567.030343750004,"end":31567.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31567.131593750004,"end":31567.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31567.739093750002,"end":31567.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31567.874093750004,"end":31567.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31567.890968749998,"end":31569.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31569.83159375,"end":31574.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31574.387843750003,"end":31578.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31578.97784375,"end":31583.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31583.41596875,"end":31585.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31585.980968750002,"end":31588.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31588.124093750004,"end":31588.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31588.208468750003,"end":31589.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31589.592218750004,"end":31591.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31591.701593750004,"end":31593.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31593.77721875,"end":31595.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31595.380343750003,"end":31608.255968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31608.795968750004,"end":31610.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31610.601593749998,"end":31619.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31619.039093749998,"end":31640.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31623.325343750003,"end":31623.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31635.84659375,"end":31636.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31636.90971875,"end":31637.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31639.592843750004,"end":31643.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31644.014093750004,"end":31655.624093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31648.469093749998,"end":31648.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31656.18096875,"end":31658.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31656.569093750004,"end":31671.756593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31671.26721875,"end":31674.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31674.152843750002,"end":31676.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31676.44784375,"end":31676.819093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31676.819093750004,"end":31689.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31677.426593750002,"end":31677.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31683.552218750003,"end":31683.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31690.06596875,"end":31691.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31691.93909375,"end":31694.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31694.740343750003,"end":31733.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31733.50221875,"end":31739.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31740.26909375,"end":31744.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31745.078468749998,"end":31750.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31750.529093750003,"end":31753.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31753.65096875,"end":31753.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31753.701593750004,"end":31754.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31753.887218750002,"end":31754.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31754.93346875,"end":31757.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31756.536593750003,"end":31757.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":31757.95409375,"end":31758.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31758.224093750003,"end":31762.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31762.39221875,"end":31779.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31779.672218749998,"end":31784.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31783.958468750003,"end":31791.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31791.80534375,"end":31793.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":31792.14284375,"end":31793.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31793.459093750003,"end":31793.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":31793.49284375,"end":31793.594093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31795.29846875,"end":31799.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31799.871593750002,"end":31800.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31800.647843750005,"end":31801.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31802.740343750003,"end":31803.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31803.87096875,"end":31809.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31809.42284375,"end":31811.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31811.700968750003,"end":31813.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31813.945343749998,"end":31822.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31822.92284375,"end":31828.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31829.48721875,"end":31832.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31833.30096875,"end":31834.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31834.887218750002,"end":31837.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31838.262218750002,"end":31848.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31848.79221875,"end":31849.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31850.007218750005,"end":31853.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31854.07409375,"end":31855.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31856.099093750003,"end":31858.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31858.78221875,"end":31864.992218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31865.21159375,"end":31869.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31869.413468750005,"end":31870.999718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31871.100968750005,"end":31872.788468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31873.05846875,"end":31873.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":31873.98659375,"end":31877.226593749998}],"whisperx":[{"start":1797.028,"end":1811.247,"text":"卓院長跟各位列席閣員早安報議會我們現在繼續開會進行行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢首先我們請卓院長報告"},{"start":1832.091,"end":1860.151,"text":"韓院長江副院長各位委員先進大家好今日本人應大院的邀請就能源配比及電價政策來進行專案報告並備質詢相關的書面報告已送達大院請各位委員先進能夠參閱以下僅就幾項的重點向各位委員先進做口頭的說明上請"},{"start":1861.431,"end":1871.103,"text":"多多的指教首先我要向大院及國人說明能源問題不僅受到國人的長期關注"},{"start":1872.302,"end":1894.412,"text":"臺灣的能源佈局也跟國際的情勢息息相關因此討論臺灣目前的能源政策我們有三項背景必須先向大家報告第一近年來國際情勢變動得非常快速包括極端氣候、威脅、日增、二屋戰爭、戰後國際"},{"start":1897.54,"end":1926.938,"text":"燃料價格會持續的不穩定新興能源技術也會快速的發展加上國際社會對排能減碳的強烈共識等等的局勢世界的能源發展正在大幅度的轉變因此我國的能源政策也必須要有機動性快速因應國際的局勢為我國在能源佈局上取得先機第二點在產業方面"},{"start":1927.964,"end":1950.394,"text":"我們要鞏固半導體業在國際上的製造優勢未來更需要在人工智慧的發展浪潮上取得領先的地位藉此帶動國家各種產業的蓬勃發展所以臺灣的能源政策必須考量經濟體質的需求不僅要能夠安全穩定的供電"},{"start":1951.094,"end":1977.915,"text":"也必須因應國際綠色供應鏈的趨勢（滿足國內產業出口所需要的綠電（才能夠保有我們的競爭力。（3賴清德總統所提出的第二次能源轉型（包括多能綠原的發展（包括深度節能、先進的儲能、強韌電網（以及天然氣、去碳化等等各方面的面向（"},{"start":1978.803,"end":2006.98,"text":"也藉此政府要塑造出我國穩健邁向淨零轉型願景的路徑﹐滾動檢討妥適的能源結構﹐驅動國家與世界接軌﹐讓臺灣具有強勁的韌性跟經濟發展的體制﹐所以接下來要向大院說明政府的能源政策方向﹐以及各項階段配比的規劃﹐至於前述三大理由﹐國內外的局勢﹐"},{"start":2008.157,"end":2034.809,"text":"再生能源已經成為產業出口不可或缺的剛性需求我們積極設置太陽能光電、風力發電機組推動地熱、氫能、水力乃至於生殖能源等等的新能源的發展同時應應低碳天然氣發電機組因為它具備了快速停啟的功能的設置"},{"start":2035.481,"end":2056.878,"text":"所以在低碳天然氣作為橋尖能源以減緩再生能源的間歇性因此在穩定供電的前提下發展多元綠能減煤減碳的行動方向與國際間發展綠能的趨勢是一致的未來第二次能源轉型也會在這個基礎上持續努力"},{"start":2058.058,"end":2069.124,"text":"至於目前的能源配比現況我們拿過去8年的努力我國再生能源的裝置容量到現在為止從2016年的4.73GW增加到2023的17.96GW成長了2.8倍而發電量也從"},{"start":2083.083,"end":2108.254,"text":"一百二十七點三億度（增加到兩百六十八點七億度（發電量已經翻倍成長。（2024年一到八月的統計資料來看（能源佔比燃煤百分之四十（燃氣百分之四十一點五（核能百分之五點四（再生能源百分之十點五（"},{"start":2110.786,"end":2127.004,"text":"顯示在趨勢上燃煤發電比例是逐漸的減少﹐低碳燃氣和再生能源的占比是逐步的增加﹐比起2016年﹐我們已經成功大幅的減少空氣污染﹐"},{"start":2128.347,"end":2148.819,"text":"統計資料﹐臺電火力發電廠整體空污排放減少了6乘5﹐從2016年的10.7萬噸降到2023年的3.7萬噸﹐從減碳的角度來看﹐透過再生能源搭配低碳燃氣的發電替代燃煤﹐"},{"start":2149.719,"end":2173.887,"text":"我國電力排碳係數也從2016到2013下降了6.79%,這都是第一次能源轉型的重要成果。（近來國人十分關心河山廠二號機。（河山廠二號機從今年的10月21日起進入大休,為期41天。（"},{"start":2176.625,"end":2199.694,"text":"目前發電系統暫時是沒有核電的大休期間減少的電力約佔3.4%暫時是以燃氣發電來代替全國的整體供應電力是無餘的那麼沒有核能的能源配比又會如何"},{"start":2200.962,"end":2207.244,"text":"2024年10月22日（當天（台電系統淨發電的結構是燃煤占33.2%（燃氣占49.5%（再生能源占16%（以此推估現行法規中（2025年的5月17（和三場二號機即將除役（同樣沒有缺電的問題（"},{"start":2229.678,"end":2245.343,"text":"臺電系統的發電結構﹐不含民間自用發電的佔比﹐推估﹐到那個時候燃煤會佔29.6%﹐燃氣會佔52%﹐再生能源也一樣佔據16.3%﹐臺電的電力調度模式﹐將和現在是相同的﹐優先調度無碳再生能源﹐並增加﹐調度低碳燃氣發電﹐"},{"start":2259.789,"end":2272.027,"text":"為此穩定的供電。（10月30日（。 未來能源配比的目標又是如何（10月30日（。 能源配比跟年度用電需求相關（10月30日（。 隨各年發電量與用電形式而有所變化（10月30日（。"},{"start":2272.799,"end":2289.207,"text":"例如2021年﹐當年我們的經濟成長率高達6.6%﹐所以帶動全國成長用電4.4%﹐造成能源配比產生比較大的大幅變化﹐因此政府在定期滾動式檢討用電需求﹐並規劃電源開發方向﹐"},{"start":2297.052,"end":2318.548,"text":"2030年政府規劃能源配比的目標是綠電占百分之三十燃煤占百分之二十燃氣占百分之五十以達到增加再生能源減少燃煤發電的效果邁向2030年的目標我們有以下幾項的推動方向"},{"start":2319.449,"end":2346.082,"text":"首先就是關於再生能源的發展我們第一要增加設置能量第二要嚴格杜絕不法以太陽能光電為例太陽能光電到2024年今年的8月太陽能光電的裝置容量達到13.6GW屋頂型的太陽能光電廣泛設置在農業工業以及民有的屋頂上目前已經有8.6GW"},{"start":2348.706,"end":2374.524,"text":"持續往後我們會在增訂再生能源發展條例第十二之一條明確規定在一定規模的新建建物上必須設置光電期望能夠增加光電的設置能量那至於地面型呢目前也已經完成了5GW再考慮生態環境、社會工作、土地使用、行政程序"},{"start":2374.98,"end":2375.1,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":2393.359,"end":2406.806,"text":"許多國人關心綠電相關的弊案問題,針對綠能犯罪政府長期致力杜絕不法的行為,2021年8月已經成立了打擊妨礙綠能產業發展犯罪聯繫的平台,"},{"start":2410.506,"end":2413.467,"text":"打擊犯罪利能的犯罪根據統計檢察機關從2021年的1月到2024年的9月已經偵辦了136案、羈押33人、起訴91人並查扣不罰犯罪所得"},{"start":2429.178,"end":2448.845,"text":"今年6月（最高檢察署在聯合調查局廉政署執行競評專案（綠能掃黑速談（跨機關積極偵辦綠能犯罪（讓綠能犯罪是過去到現在（我們是持續工作的重點（接下來（我要求各部會（針對"},{"start":2450.808,"end":2471.042,"text":"持續加強司法跟產業合作的平台﹐設立獎金鼓勵檢舉﹐簡化申請及核定流程杜絕人模不章﹐以及訂定綠能產業透明回扣機制等幾項﹐研議具體有效的相關機制﹐即時馬上加以實施﹐"},{"start":2473.41,"end":2498.806,"text":"再來談到離岸風電（在離岸風電的部分（到2024年的8月（離岸風電的裝置容量（達到2.7GW（我國參考國際離岸風電發展的趨勢（以先示範次潛力（後區塊（三個階段穩步的前進（第一階段的示範（跟第二階段的潛力區（累計已有6座離岸風電廠完成（"},{"start":2500.427,"end":2517.653,"text":"目前已經完成的2026區塊發展的第三階段的第一期第二期選商作業同時積極布局新型風電技術以擴大離岸風電設計的場域離岸風電設置量到2028年我們的目標是達到7.9GW再來我們談到地熱"},{"start":2525.626,"end":2542.633,"text":"我們積極發展多元的綠能其中包括地熱發電到今年的8月地熱裝置容量有7MW經濟部也在地礦中心在依科學模型在推估臺灣有淺層地熱也有深層的地熱"},{"start":2548.547,"end":2576.652,"text":"已經在宜蘭的清水、臺東的金輪等地我們設計會有6個淺層的地熱案場後續在全臺包括大屯山、花蓮瑞穗等10大地熱淺區我們也會進行探勘政府更積極地來發展布局深層地熱的發電10月14日我們在宜蘭圓山開始鑽探我國第一口深層地熱"},{"start":2578.569,"end":2588.229,"text":"會目標希望它是有4000公尺地熱的深井﹐我們期望未來地熱發展能夠成為重要綠能來源之一﹐"},{"start":2589.434,"end":2611.062,"text":"至於水力發電（。 截至2024年18月（。 水力發電裝置容量達到2.1GW（。 既有水力發電（。 主要在於德基水庫、翡翠水庫等大型的水庫設置發電機組（。 水力發電（。 比較容易受水文狀況的影響（。 但近兩年來（。 水力發電約佔全國發電量的1.7%（。"},{"start":2615.151,"end":2643.588,"text":"未來我們會持續推動對環境影響比較小的小水利發電現在我們已經掌握了23個小水利發電案場將訂定案場的設置指引引導業者採用低環境衝擊模式開發案場透過公民電廠的方式鼓勵民眾參與設置發展在地資源建立社區經濟的模式接下來我們談到核能的議題"},{"start":2645.07,"end":2673.495,"text":"國內外都非常關心核能的議題我要再次的強調如果未來我們對新的核能技術在安全在沒有核廢料的問題也在社會有高度共識的情況底下政府採取開放討論的態度我們必須依法行政所以依照現行的核管法現有的核三廠二號機將在明年五月必須除役但是"},{"start":2674.013,"end":2700.101,"text":"所遺留下來臺電管理核電廠的技術人員應該適度的要留存起來我們需要他繼續了解國際新核能技術的各項研究跟發展也要因應未來各項有可能的各種變動更重要的是目前臺灣仍然處於需要處理核後端核廢料的重要議題這些都需要臺電核電廠這些專業的人員來處理"},{"start":2703.925,"end":2729.461,"text":"至於其他電源開發的規劃（未來電源開發規劃（除了再生人員之外（我們規劃建置快速停止的（特性的低碳新型燃氣機組（包括台電跟民營（會增加很多新的燃氣機組（我們期待到2033年（我們大型燃氣機組（可以近增加1.86GW（來提供安全無虞的供電（"},{"start":2730.612,"end":2751.342,"text":"依據推估﹐納入半導體跟人工智慧發展下的電力需求﹐目前規劃的大型機組電力開發﹐足以符合2030年的電力需求﹐因此﹐我要拜託大院委員﹐地方政府和國人﹐請大家共同支持臺電﹐各項能源開發計畫﹐"},{"start":2752.895,"end":2782.376,"text":"如果各項能源開發計畫能夠依規劃完工2030年我們是絕對不會有缺電的問題此外為了配合再生能源的間歇性政府也積極地推動除能、電池跟抽水力等先進除能設置並加速推動電網韌性安全的建設這些都會強化電力系統維持供電穩定將來一定發揮重要的功能"},{"start":2783.479,"end":2807.24,"text":"以上是關於能源配比、現況、未來各項能源規劃的報告請各位委員先進能夠指教跟支持那接下來我們要說明電價政策電價是由電價審議委員會來專業的審查依照電業法及公用售電業電價費率計算公司的規定"},{"start":2808.377,"end":2837.686,"text":"經濟部每年會定期召開電價審議委員會在每年的4月跟10月檢討、調整公用售電電價目前審議委員一共有17名就立法院大院所修訂的電業法第49條決議由學者、專家及民間團體代表組成的外部委員超過半數所以在新的委員會的委員組成下電價審議委員會將具有更多的專業性跟代表性"},{"start":2839.524,"end":2857.152,"text":"現行電價審議是依據反應成本、節能減碳、照顧民生、穩定物價以及使用者付費等幾項原則由電價費率審議委員會定期檢討決定。（因此電價審議委員會要評估多重因素"},{"start":2858.666,"end":2885.182,"text":"比如綜合考量社會經濟狀況、物價穩定情形、民生產業承受程度、臺電公司的財務狀況等等因素,省慎的評估整體電價調整的事項。本次就是2024年的10月電價調整的原則跟方案。我們第一是要照顧民生及穩定物價,第二是兼顧產業的競爭力。"},{"start":2887.625,"end":2910.045,"text":"在照顧名聲跟穩定物價的這個原則下我們看到2022到2024國際燃料價格飆漲讓台電的燃料成本從2021年連續兩年超過6000億這個是俄羅斯戰爭以前3000億的兩倍以上難遇見的是特殊的重大事件"},{"start":2911.129,"end":2938.634,"text":"至於2024年8月為止臺電累積虧損4200億因此臺電目前電價尚未完全足額的反應成本預估2024年電價成本是每度3.95元但電價審議委員會為兼顧照顧民生及穩定物價決議在本次調整電價當中住宅小商店"},{"start":2942.683,"end":2953.857,"text":"佔1452萬戶約佔前提的95.2百分比住宅小商店的累計電價各級級距不調整明升用電電價平均"},{"start":2955.575,"end":2955.915,"text":"。（10月30日（。 三"},{"start":2973.379,"end":2992.946,"text":"另外為降低對CPI指數的影響給予民生內需產業像是食品、含加工及零售業、攤販集中市場、量販店、超商、超市、醫院、診所、餐盒、外匯以及團散、承包業等等的業別、電價,我們予以動長。"},{"start":2996.616,"end":3023.611,"text":"農漁、學校及社福團體的漲幅部分由目的世界主管機關循年度預算編列支應。那麼在堅固產業競爭力的這個原則下為合理反應成本及堅固產業的競爭力在產業電價方面沈亦輝委員會決意要用用電量跟產值衰退作為指標將部分產業"},{"start":3025.596,"end":3031.379,"text":"長幅減半為7%或動漲以緩和電價調整對產業的影響那麼其餘的不受影響的影響比較小的就調整14%而整體產業電價平均漲幅是12.1%調整後的產業用電平均每度4.27元依照用電"},{"start":3051.909,"end":3052.509,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":3073.854,"end":3081.198,"text":"以及用電衰退未達5%（產值及銷售額衰退達15%（以上的我們減半調幅調整調漲7%（除了前述情況以外其他影響比較小的調幅為14%（至於本次調整電價對民生物價及產業的影響（"},{"start":3099.008,"end":3127.009,"text":"考量本次電價調整的方案明升電價的調漲僅調整產業電價目前預估本次電價調整對CPI的影響保守估計只有0.03%我們降到最低此次在審議會中對於明升內需型的產業如食品、攤販集中市場、量販店、超商、超市對CPI的實際影響渴望更低"},{"start":3128.937,"end":3155.673,"text":"至於本次電價調整對產業的影響為兼顧產業的競爭力務實反映產業的復甦情形本次的審議委員會也針對電價用電或產值消退的產業採取動漲或減半的調整所以本次電價調整後平均工業電價為每度4.27元跟我們主要的競爭國家相比韓國他在今年的"},{"start":3156.601,"end":3184.274,"text":"平均電價是4.65元顯然是高於我們的產業平均電價所以我國仍然具有產業出口的競爭力至於深度節能這方面無論是產業或是受到電價調整影響實施新電價之後我們都賦予強化節能的潛力所以行政院透過深度節能的這樣的措施其中包括節能"},{"start":3185.444,"end":3186.544,"text":"政府會提供。（10月29日（。"},{"start":3212.056,"end":3226.453,"text":"節電輔導由專業團隊專家協助產業用電診斷提出完整的節電建議方案協助煤和ESCO落實改善。（12、在節能設備投資及理解"},{"start":3227.449,"end":3244.162,"text":"是投資設置或者是更換智慧節能設備如果符合了產創條例第十之一條智慧設備投資抵減的範圍我們會協助產用戶來降低投入節能改善的成本"},{"start":3245.45,"end":3273.575,"text":"在多元節能獎勵措施方面政府會推動節能績效保證專案協助改善動力與公用設備強化廢熱與廢冷回收投入預算以個別條件輔導補助節電設備改善它的經費最後我國能源轉型除了已經推動的太陽光電跟風力之外"},{"start":3274.5,"end":3301.079,"text":"我們會全力發展開發新的其他再生能源所以現在對地熱、水力乃至氫能等等我們也全力的在做全面的開發我們希望到2030年再生能源的發電比能夠佔到百分之三十這是我們達到淨零轉型階段性的目標並且有充分的綠電滿足我國出口產業的需求"},{"start":3302.234,"end":3325.871,"text":"現行電價政策透過外部委員的電價審議在兼顧電價合理化穩定民生物價等前提下進行審議調整電價的同時也持續推出深度節能的措施我們除了可以促進節電以外更要減輕用戶電費的支出並且有助於減碳的效益"},{"start":3326.772,"end":3333.916,"text":"以上兩項的報告,敬請委員先進多多的指教並與支持,祝大家身體健康,謝謝大家。"},{"start":3341.837,"end":3369.357,"text":"法院會今天是本院立法院托育中心舉辦的快閃活動托育中心特別恭請卓院長跟各位委員同仁一起能夠到門口跟他們一起合影讓小朋友們留下一個美好的回憶所以我們現在休息4分鐘在休息期間歡迎卓院長、各位委員同仁一起到門口跟我們立法院的托育中心小朋友一起合照一張10分鐘之後我們再正式開始謝謝現在開始休息"},{"start":3970.831,"end":3994.148,"text":"官員會現在我們繼續開會進行委員質詢每位委員質詢詢答時間不得超過15分鐘輪到質詢委員如不在場視同放棄首先我們請黃珊珊委員質詢謝主席、委員長、經濟部部長、環境部部長、台電董事長"},{"start":4013.806,"end":4039.99,"text":"黃委員好是部長、院長我想我剛剛很高興看到卓院長的報告對於台灣未來的能源配比已經有一個初步完整的結構但是我今天的質詢有幾個題目希望能夠了解一下院長的態度還有接下來的做法前面比較輕鬆一點我們來討論一下智慧電表這個是政府的政策對吧"},{"start":4041.018,"end":4066.246,"text":"目前也是賴總統在氣候變遷委員會裡面要求很重要的就是節能是最重要的部長是嗎是的我想請問一下這個變遷委員會他們將來的決議行政院都會照辦吧還是會像司改會或者是年改會很多決議其實都沒有做到我們不希望再發生同樣的事情這個因件並不遠"},{"start":4067.759,"end":4072.886,"text":"所以這個決議絕對會成為行政院的政策不會像年改會或司改會後續無力的狀況"},{"start":4083.855,"end":4109.734,"text":"總統府這個氣候變遷委員會（主要是就一些政策的討論（沒錯（至於怎麼樣的執行（執行,行政院來執行（期程、預算的規劃（但是人力的佈置都由行政院逐步的來推進（我也希望是這樣（不要常常看到有很多的決議（但是後面沒有下文（接下來是賴總統說（最好的節能政策才是比開發能源更有效益（這個也是兩位認同（他說最好的能源就是節能（"},{"start":4110.333,"end":4127.968,"text":"沒錯所以節能我們現在將近要花4年300多億要省下206億度的電然後讓民間來投資3000多億對吧目前的計劃是這樣但是我在這邊要要有趣的是智慧電表是政府的政策"},{"start":4129.144,"end":4158.334,"text":"日本跟德國都認為說智慧電表可以達到節能效果但是我們這邊要跟大家說也要跟部長跟院長說從審計部的報告裡面很有趣他說我們的智慧電表裝得太慢而且裝上智慧電表也不智慧事實的實情是這樣一百零年開始推動智慧電表我們在十二年內將近裝設了三百二十三萬戶但是其中一百四十七萬戶的高耗能的用電"},{"start":4159.599,"end":4177.756,"text":"。（"},{"start":4180.397,"end":4198.918,"text":"報告委員這個部分我想智慧電表是我們這一期大力要推動在深度節能的部分是 過過智慧電表所以智慧電表是其中的一個節能的項目嘛是 是但是現在的速度跟效率我覺得有點低啦而且審計部也說裝太慢"},{"start":4199.719,"end":4227.102,"text":"更嚴重的是院長什麼叫智慧電表因為他就是要透過網際網路直接可以讀取而且他可以審閱但是現在有3萬戶左右裝了智慧電表的電表不智慧因為他沒有網際網路所以等於是裝了等於擺裝啊我的意思是說如果審計部有這樣的檢討報告院長跟部長可能要去看一看我們的檢討政策是出了什麼問題好嗎是謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":4228.035,"end":4253.833,"text":"因為這個部分看起來就是有點可笑接下來就會看到說我們從101年開始推其實跟日本是同個時間我們現在推到大概20%日本幾乎到現在已經100%也就是我們還剩下11年的80%這個速度跟效率的確是非常非常的差所以部長我相信你來自企業你應該不會容許這樣的效率存在在我們的政府之間吧"},{"start":4255.039,"end":4275.377,"text":"是的,我想這個院長有指示啦,這個部分我們會...院長我覺得這個節能是最好的能源,拜託節能的第一要務就是智慧電表的落實,而且我們落後其他國家非常多。好,我們會極力的迎頭趕上,希望能夠達到目標。我同時要請那個台電董事長要上台一下,謝謝。"},{"start":4278.837,"end":4290.033,"text":"接下來我還要再講一個審計部最近查到的部分時間暫停跟黃珊瑋報告因為台電董事長不能被學好沒關係謝謝那我們就把台電的事情來問院長跟部長接下來是審計部說的我們現在"},{"start":4296.925,"end":4320.75,"text":"從立法院給了政府的公務預算﹐不管是增資也好﹐補助也好﹐其實大概已經都有3000億左右﹐然後去年﹐今年一年我們漲了兩次電價﹐現在經濟部又來向立法院申請了將近2000億的補助﹐接下來需要撥補給台電﹐我想問一下院長﹐如果就這些都給了﹐請問﹐我們多久可以不漲電價﹐"},{"start":4322.445,"end":4344.54,"text":"報告委員首先我們今年10月份的電價的調整民生用電沒有調整那遠遠低於我們的成本所以我們應該可以保有明年有機會不找電價嗎我們努力讓民生的穩定所以除了除了剛剛講的能夠節電其實還有一個台電要節流"},{"start":4345.923,"end":4368.868,"text":"臺電不節流才是今天虧損的虧大的主因這邊也是陳季夫說的部長事事念念就是這一段話是他認為有信心讓臺電的財務健全我想部長來自企業他一定不能容許自己的企業在那邊浪費吧對吧好我們現在就是陳季夫又講另外一件事進口的燃煤他每年送到臺灣來然後要卸貨在一"},{"start":4369.65,"end":4390.195,"text":"一百一十年卸貨如果你卸貨太慢要給他一個致船費就船要停在那邊等你卸貨從一百一十年我們大概只有兩億到一百一十一年我們暴增到七億那也就算了一百一十二年貨送來了沒有辦法卸貨台電賠了二十億"},{"start":4392.207,"end":4405.353,"text":"20億是什麼?致船費也就是我們訂了貨人家送來了你沒有倉庫可以卸貨然後就讓他在船上等要賠給船東賠一年賠20億你一年我們現在剛剛院長說賠了4000多億其中這樣就快30億部長這是怎麼回事?報告委員我想這一個命題我們回去會馬上嚴查這件事情不應該發生"},{"start":4420.492,"end":4450.212,"text":"部長來自企業界庫存、倉庫都要準備好然後貨來了要趕快卸沒有地方存要去找地方存你20億、30億拿來蓋倉庫都蓋完了不是現在這樣的狀況你可以說烏克蘭戰爭我們預計不好你訂貨跟送貨都沒有規劃也沒有安排然後一賠20億現在告訴我說要漲電價這百姓怎麼能接受這個我們回去馬上來清查這件事情"},{"start":4450.609,"end":4465.66,"text":"好這個是要清查請一個月之內給我本席一個報告而且你也要給審計部報告也要告訴我們全民說漲價是因為漲到這種錢漲到這種錢我們不甘心啊我們來追查這件事情是現在請主席我要請環境部長麻煩請環境部長備詢這件事情需要報告拜託我覺得蠻離譜的"},{"start":4477.625,"end":4505.035,"text":"接下去就是上一次 院長我在總實訊也問過了我先對於基隆協和電廠的未來還有現在的四階的環評上次部長說沒有替代方案環境部長說我不是經濟部的環保署我會嚴格審查院長回答我目前還沒有想到替代方案我想知道如果環評不過兩位院長跟部長還是沒有替代方案嗎"},{"start":4507.264,"end":4531.372,"text":"要不要努力呢?要去努力還是要去耍無賴的?目前的努力是一步一步的收集更完整的資料,讓政府能夠通過。所以你們要去找資料,我也很認真的幫你們找資料。我剛剛聽到院長的報告我很高興,因為我們把地熱列為台灣未來再生能源的其中一個重要項目。所以接下來就要跟兩位報告說,其實在基隆有地熱,"},{"start":4532.452,"end":4557.115,"text":"基隆的地熱在2014年公園院就已經查到基隆嶼下面有興奈的海底火山另外協和電廠將來還是燃氣他還是會借海造地這會破壞生態第二個燃氣還是有所謂的戰爭風險有所謂的會受到天后的影響會受到國際能源的影響地熱"},{"start":4558.909,"end":4584.397,"text":"盡力攤牌而且不用燃料最重要是24小時不受天候的影響還有我們是穩定不求人我想地熱應該是臺灣未來很重要的一個方向所以基隆有這樣的資源但是我很遺憾我最近在調資料經濟部沒有做過研究就說沒有替代方案然後台電呢也說從來沒有探勘過請問沒有探勘過你怎麼知道沒有第三"},{"start":4586.006,"end":4605.235,"text":"2022年的海大教授就說其實我們希望能夠在基隆這個地方把地熱列為考慮之一院長我要說的是你們要集齊窮盡所有的努力去找到更多的方案而不是直接把這個鍋甩給環境部"},{"start":4606.547,"end":4628.85,"text":"尤其是院長我希望很堅定的說你剛剛講的報告第六是中華民國未來政策的重要的重中之重我希望他會成為卓院長的一個政績好嗎我們只要有任何的訊息請經濟部督促台電跟相關的部會能夠去廣泛的去發掘沒錯所以請不要輕易的說沒有替代方案"},{"start":4629.551,"end":4632.232,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":4654.036,"end":4667.984,"text":"我們現在的問題是剛剛講的我們不知道或我們從來沒去探勘過也不曉得要把它當成國家重要的方向土耳其就在眼前做不做而已另外我們也找到他們的方法"},{"start":4668.797,"end":4697.62,"text":"他其實很認真的在做一件事第一個他們的政府先把所有的地質探勘的資料做完備提供相關的數據讓國際的企業可以知道或者是來協助來參與最重要的是他提供稅務的減免補貼的政策甚至資金的援助更重要的是先完善地熱的法規這些環境造就以後國際的企業就像風電供光電業者他就會來"},{"start":4699.261,"end":4699.401,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":4719.708,"end":4731.868,"text":"我們碰到很多美國商會、歐洲商會的朋友都一直在說希望得到完整的data而已他們有data他們就可以做評估院長這件事情還沒開始做欸"},{"start":4732.782,"end":4751.995,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個意見我們請經濟部這是非常可行的方式為什麼還沒開始做然後又變成中央政策我希望的是部長你可以答應開始做這件事我們開始在做我們已經在那個宜蘭的園山挖了第一口深層的這個地熱井"},{"start":4754.136,"end":4754.256,"text":"指揮委員"},{"start":4778.391,"end":4781.193,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":4802.296,"end":4814.279,"text":"為全美發電8.5%我們台灣我調的資料是我們2024目前低熱發電是剛剛院長說的7.29MW是占總發電量不到0.1%然後好像我們的目標是2030年低熱發電值200MW在總發電量不到0.3部長這個目標有沒有太低了一點"},{"start":4825.146,"end":4851.378,"text":"是的,這個部分我們會滾動式的來檢討小心大一點吧目標高一點吧如果地熱台灣接下去的問題是你看國際的科技巨擘從Google到Meta都在發展地熱做它數據中心的電源也就是說剛剛我講只要環境友善只要法規明確只要資料健全"},{"start":4851.858,"end":4853.879,"text":"臺灣的地熱資源豐富,儲存量將近十座核市場。2011年到現在,十多年,"},{"start":4877.461,"end":4879.844,"text":"本院內政委員會報告併案審議、委員王鴻薇等20人分別擬具"},{"start":4887.298,"end":4911.494,"text":"第六裡面臺灣運償了400GW,宜蘭現在是8.5,所以其實宜蘭是一個很重要的方向,而且已經開始了,我們希望趕快加速的進行。另外就是我希望院長可以答應,宜蘭、基隆都有豐富的地熱資源,要積極推動開發,第一個,探勘資料要完整,第二個,"},{"start":4912.142,"end":4920.092,"text":"法規配套要健全。 院長你可以在這個會期給我一個初步的回應嗎?然後探勘資料可以納入"},{"start":4942.934,"end":4952.841,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢。謝謝總院長及各部會首長備詢。接下來請登記第二位,郭國文委員質詢。"},{"start":4975.031,"end":4980.655,"text":"主席有請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢郭委員好院長好院長我剛接著黃山威委員剛最後講的所謂的地熱整治能源開發我認為地熱能源開發現階段比較主要的問題是在於土地的部分"},{"start":5002.725,"end":5028.001,"text":"土地部分因為他大部分都是在特農所以說呢他必須在越過這個法規的部分要透過中研院來進行開發這當然是一個途徑但中研院自己本身能夠開發的能量有多少可能要去面對這個問題如果要提高低熱能量的話可能要重新思考一下首先給院長做一個建議院長稍作休息我跟那個部長對話一下那個部長"},{"start":5029.178,"end":5056.242,"text":"我想臺電在整個總體不缺電又不能長期依賴中南部的用電的這個部分對外已經多次表示態度而且這個新聞是在8月15號的時候那我們就看整個夏季的用電的部分你去看看中南部的部分的用電都是供過於求那北部很清楚就供不應求很清楚"},{"start":5056.442,"end":5057.804,"text":"以往發電都是從區域的角度來思考"},{"start":5073.543,"end":5097.151,"text":"北、中、南跟東部那本席為什麼一開始跟你提到這個問題呢?因為上次你們就創造一個新的名詞也就是行政區域的自主率的問題然後你行政區域的自主率的問題你還特別強調說台南市的部分只有20%本席來給你換算給你聽喔台南市或許在你舊的資料當中是20%但是本席以去年"},{"start":5099.053,"end":5121.041,"text":"2023年臺南市的這個用電總共是328億度來計算的話深壩目前的這個裝置容量大概是2GW臺南市的這個整個太陽能光電與將近有4.5GW的這個裝置容量扣掉沒有日照的時間它能夠供應至少四分之以上至少1GW"},{"start":5122.082,"end":5151.694,"text":"然後另外呢因為我們那邊有四座水利發電廠包括曾文、烏山頭以及呢八田跟溪口這四座加起來有3億度左右我用最嚴格的標準來計算的話就台南市的部分就120加60加3就183你如果換算在隔壁你知道嗎隔壁的新達電廠在哪裡他就在北高雄他距離台南市幾公里"},{"start":5152.321,"end":5152.341,"text":"。 三"},{"start":5174.616,"end":5196.21,"text":"一度的情況底下臺南至少會佔一半的情況下我換算起來 哈布朗當啊臺南啊在整個你所謂的能源自主率的部分啊加總起來以去年這一個用電的這一個母數來計算我覺得大約就有八成之多就有八成之多我第一個讓數字上給部長做參考部長你的看法如何"},{"start":5199.043,"end":5219.267,"text":"這個我要再回去瞭解一下再重新你確實要瞭解委員所指導的這個方向我們再重新去深入瞭解這一個所謂在推動臺南需要這一個火力發電廠天然氣發電廠已經有預設的目標才會創造這個民使才會用低估的數字讓你去前面去擋箭"},{"start":5221.106,"end":5231.31,"text":"當成擋箭盤在擋箭。（2、他用南科的理由南科我再跟你說南科當初台電的供電量是3.3GW目前用的是2.3GW用了7成"},{"start":5235.066,"end":5252.423,"text":"然後呢在整個用電計畫在未來的一年是大概151度然後佔整個台南市的用電當然那個整個南科大概佔了45%那這樣你未來也有南科的整個用電規劃因為南科太重要了嘛"},{"start":5253.064,"end":5272.641,"text":"你二期的1.1GW、七股的2.2GW再加上新達電廠1.5GW總共你要否南科的就4.6GW所以南科怎麼會缺電目前沒有但南科有缺什麼電我還是要強調一下南科缺的是這個綠電我把所有的數字整理出來來一個跟你說明"},{"start":5273.888,"end":5277.193,"text":"以目前為止,臺南的328億用電量部分,工業部門部分,用電大概是251度,佔大約7成。"},{"start":5288.083,"end":5311.062,"text":"台南的工業用電需求非常的高你再檢視一下在南科的產值1.58兆的情況底下台積電啊貢獻了1.2兆但是台積電用電的比例啊就綠電的部分啊佔了整個80%所以台積電是目前的南科最大的用電大戶這大家都非常清楚心知肚明"},{"start":5312.093,"end":5323.977,"text":"台積電也早就提出他要加入這I100的部分I100的部分的目標值是203年的時候60%的綠電204年的時候要100%的綠電然後如果說按照台積電公開的永續報告書我給大家檢視了一下2030年的台積電的整個全台能的總資源耗損量的話大概是247.75億度"},{"start":5337.312,"end":5366.016,"text":"但在2023年的時候只用了25.9億度的綠電比例上大概佔11%距離2023年60%他現在只有11%之多距離非常的遙遠所以關鍵其實在綠電可是台南市在整個太陽能發電的建樹購入的部分總共多少總共9,445件高達21度現在是全台南全台灣最高的"},{"start":5367.287,"end":5391.256,"text":"所以基本上這種情況底下各種方式以這種你從台南的來看的話他有沒有處理我再申訴給你聽另外一個部分整個光電確認是全國最高我們的整個在能源的負擔上面全國的這個蓄血量的能源負擔台南的水庫加總起來佔了56%總共佔了56%"},{"start":5395.017,"end":5421.937,"text":"所以呢在剛剛我在說的這些整個機組的換專的情況底下我覺得啦講白一點臺電呢在整個第一頁的時候說不能依照中南部的這個送電也就是不能依賴南電北送但是你們現在的開發的政策依然是南電北送啊部長你們實際的說的跟做的不一樣"},{"start":5424,"end":5451.085,"text":"說的是說不要南電北送希望北部負擔多一點但做的呢就是要南部負擔多一點報告委員我想如果是如你所說的說我們說的跟做的不一樣那這個我們要回去要來檢討一下為什麼我們說的跟做的不一樣對 部長問題就出在這邊嘛現在所有都跑到南部去了我再來跟你講你為什麼會有這樣的結果"},{"start":5453.086,"end":5480.35,"text":"依照整個你們提到的10年的這個電力規劃上面我提到說有放寬這個PPA合約要為了滿足用電的需求為了追求這個KPI的部分目前是只有九威跟中江你知道嗎你拿九威跟中江的類比老實講是很奇怪的中江它在原來一個工業區舊工業區裡面它旁邊根本沒有所謂的住宅區的問題"},{"start":5482.494,"end":5498.572,"text":"這你清楚嗎?更何況中家本身背後的業者是房地產業者你真的確定他的專業嗎?再加上中家本身還有銀行連帶的問題你有去了解嗎?結果台電發出來新聞稿說中家是成功的案例"},{"start":5499.619,"end":5517.311,"text":"跟你講你沒有去了解實情現階段的整個久違也是拿PPA的狀況這種情況底下齁我跟你講短期內你要透過民間的這些電廠達到你十年計劃的情況底下老師說我是抱持著存疑我也讓那個院長知道"},{"start":5519.429,"end":5535.034,"text":"整個經濟部寫得非常好聽20GW要成長到47GW但是也不用悲觀我跟院長跟部長說明為什麼因為可以超支債給的在哪裡在台電本身在經濟部本身在能源署本身"},{"start":5535.974,"end":5560.555,"text":"人權署不要把只有把責任下放給台電而已你去看看喔,台電的機組當中不論是大潭、興達、森霸、大林、通宵、協和這幾個機組你10年起來加不來台漢布蘭岡是16.6GW也就是在你總體的新增計畫當中呢遠遠超過一半以上再加上你既有的這一個機組是不是要馬上研議還有調度的空間啊"},{"start":5561.84,"end":5590.311,"text":"所以你天然氣的這個達標的可能性是有的啊不是沒有的啊 部長你怎麼說你要去想看看操之在己的在哪裡你們可以要求了應該是要求台電要求能源署為什麼這些機組不會像有新生的機組這些問題新生的電廠這些問題因為他不用同意函嘛他不用環比嘛他只要將原來的機組來做個替換就可以了只是你們替換的速度快或慢而已啊"},{"start":5591.841,"end":5617.287,"text":"那個部長你回去想一下為什麼你們替換速度這麼慢為什麼為什麼別人要三年你們要六年這樣你們自己拖到的情況底下你才你才趕快想要修改這個辦法要修改的辦法呢你對我講什麼說台電的說法說要因為啊環評要兩年所以你要放寬"},{"start":5618.533,"end":5648.02,"text":"放寬這個所謂電業規則第三條的規定把環評跟同意書拿掉用這種方式來做處理結果呢你這樣的情況底下這樣的結果就是台電會欲速則不達你給廠商這些入廠券他沒有辦法處理他說兩年我跟你講久違到現在已經兩年了部長久違在前年的時候10月給他跟他簽約的到現在兩年了到現在大家還在抗議啊對啊"},{"start":5649.656,"end":5671.851,"text":"有比較快嗎?就結果來看,也沒有比較快啊,只是擾民而已啊。有達到你的政策目標嗎?部長,你好像要講話,讓你講一下。報告委員,我想九威這一個是,雖然投標的時候,這個免備還平跟地方政府的同意案,但得標以後仍然需要。"},{"start":5672.935,"end":5682.207,"text":"所以經濟部在發這個這個籌設或者擴建的許可你這樣的情況底下他如果萬一沒有辦法得標的情況底下他是不是上面一直繞來繞去"},{"start":5683.729,"end":5705.111,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5706.377,"end":5721.628,"text":"是保證表面上說都沒有拿到什麼PPA許可可是他到處給你辦那個公聽會謝謝謝謝委員這個這不是造成人心惶惶嗎我們大概在之前啊他們在在處理這件事情的時候沒有考慮到委員所知道的這個部分"},{"start":5722.388,"end":5748.561,"text":"對嘛 這個我們現在回去會深刻的檢討你要深刻檢討 部長 深刻檢討的方式呢就是依照電業登記規則電業登記規則訂的是誰訂的 是政府訂的啊經濟部訂的啊 能源署訂的啊你可不可以授權給台電那麼大的空間三項可以變成 五項可以變成三項你應該留著自己控管才對啊我們還是依法行事啦因為依法行事才對嘛 對不對是 但會感覺上就是 欸 能源署啊"},{"start":5749.807,"end":5773.799,"text":"都要當好人,壞人要台電去當讓台電衝在最前線台電要把他轉包出去給廠商放在最前線層層下放大家爭相當好人,沒有要當壞人大家都想要那個結果、業績不想要扛那個責任就形成這種文化,對不對所以我建議部長應該把這個主導權拿回來"},{"start":5777.924,"end":5800.591,"text":"甚至能把整個能源政策的控管拿在你的手中不要讓能源署只會發包給台電而已那台北要轉發包給民間電廠這層層發包結果怎麼樣你來自於商界你最清楚嘛所以我真的是在這個時候慎重的提醒你錯誤的政策應該做修正跟導正"},{"start":5802.97,"end":5819.552,"text":"所以說我請你回去之後好好想清楚依照現有的這個機制當中要如何形成一個新的退場機制出來不要造成地方的一個紛紛擾擾可以嗎可以好最後我要跟部長講部長再來講為什麼對能源署有意見"},{"start":5821.414,"end":5841.84,"text":"你們在八月的時候提出一個能源用地白皮書啦,裡頭寫得很清楚,要用屋頂行為優先。因為呢,你們地面行已經,地面行12,要12,屋頂八基加碗,八基加碗政策目標已經達成了,可是地面行沒有。你對我來講說可能到2026,這個我可以理解,我可以理解。"},{"start":5843.32,"end":5867.491,"text":"但是我必須說你後面的部分還是要屋頂型為優先你們一開始是這樣子你那種說法讓人家覺得你好像要走地面型為什麼說走那個屋頂型呢因為台灣的整個面積本來狹小你用地用了之後那不知道20年以後的事情但就整個用電的比例最多其實集中在都市區六都當中佔了60%所以說都市建築當中的屋頂的這一個光電的這一個承擔責任應該責無旁貸"},{"start":5872.332,"end":5872.352,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5923.39,"end":5928.191,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝郭國文委員的諮詢。謝謝左院長跟經濟部長的備詢。謝謝。接下來請登記第三號,王鴻薇委員諮詢。好,謝謝主席。我請我們院長還有經濟部長跟農業部長。麻煩再請左院長兩位部長備詢。"},{"start":5957.753,"end":5970.709,"text":"黃委員早院長早兩位部長早黃委員早院長部長先講一下剛才郭委員這幾次他都特別提到了有關於南電北送那我在這邊特別提供一個數據"},{"start":5972.091,"end":5986.647,"text":"施上六都的電力自給率是電電工會所統計計算出來的,六都裡面沒有錯,臺北市的自給率是最低,但是啊,包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%,"},{"start":5989.97,"end":6017.477,"text":"新北是87.4%而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據他有一些疑慮但是我特別提出來這是電電工會所計算出來的所以過去長期說南電北送南電北送這樣的概念事實上是有問題的好我想請教一下我們的陳部長"},{"start":6018.317,"end":6032.676,"text":"昨天去北檢,您是以證人身份還是以被告身份?我是因為去年有人提告我說有用被告身份。所以你是以被告身份?是。好,那麼我就請教院長。"},{"start":6033.905,"end":6058.759,"text":"操司弊案之前有監察院提出來的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過5億元之多而且他現在對於農業部也提出來糾正而現在站在您旁邊的我們的農業部長昨天以被告身份被北檢傳喚所以院長我想請問一下"},{"start":6059.679,"end":6074.036,"text":"以現在的狀況,操司的弊案在北檢,現在在偵辦中,那麼是不是應該讓我們的陳部長停職來接受調查?請問院長。三點回覆,第一個,"},{"start":6075.353,"end":6089.113,"text":"被任何一個人告都可能成為被告被告不是自己選擇的這個身份是因為這樣而定的所以您現在仍然信任陳部長第二個已經在法院細數當中那就應該讓他去充分的說明清楚這是第二點第三點"},{"start":6091.176,"end":6114.069,"text":"我們還是要回來談電、電、能源政策所以你現在仍然背書陳部長我要告訴院長的是當時啊部長在之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書還說超思不是藝人公司還說超思沒有問題但是他現在以被告身份被調查我要特別講的"},{"start":6114.969,"end":6115.189,"text":"委員,我們"},{"start":6144.741,"end":6151.797,"text":"在政壇這麼多年你我都曾經被列為被告過只要有人告我們就是被告這不是起訴的問題"},{"start":6153.035,"end":6180.062,"text":"我是被你們潘孟安弄誹謗,跟部長的圖利完全不一樣,不要浪費我的時間。陳部長可以先請回。另外,你們的報告第一頁就談到了台積電。我想請問部長還有院長,因為下個禮拜就是美國大選,當然它會影響國際非常非常的嚴重。"},{"start":6181.132,"end":6209.673,"text":"那麼川普現在被認為他的當選機率非常高而他已經不止一次的直接公開指責臺灣是偷走了美國的晶片的生意直指臺灣是半導體的小偷所以我想請問我先請問部長好了您同意川普這樣的說法嗎?川普的說法是他講的當然是他講的"},{"start":6210.99,"end":6238.466,"text":"那我...你不要講廢話了,你同意嗎?我當然不同意啊不同意?然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎?來挺我們台灣的半導體業嗎?他沒問我啊,我怎麼去...他沒有問你,我現在問你啊你現在問我是問我說同不同意他這句話對!我們的半導體是小偷嗎?我們偷走日本國半導體的生意嗎?我現在回答你是我不同意啊你不同意?好!院長,你同意嗎?"},{"start":6239.566,"end":6259.682,"text":"當然不同意這是我們自己發展出來一個非常領先世界的產業台灣多少的數十萬的半導體業者這樣的拼命讓台灣有品牌然後台灣成為一個全球半導體的支柱我非常遺憾為什麼我今天要用我現在的時間來問"},{"start":6261.443,"end":6277.619,"text":"因為我遺憾的是川普不是第一次說一說再說如果他當選之後那麼成為全世界的險學那還得了絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒台灣半導體業者的一個工作和努力兩位同意吧"},{"start":6278.889,"end":6303.395,"text":"報告委員我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展尤其是美國的這個民主的大選我相信他是一個民主成熟的國家未來台美關係一定是在現在基礎上我們努力讓他更深化更發展其實我們有很多問題啦真的我現在不要浪費我時間那我要另外請教美國的國會議員Vance他就是這個川普的副總統的候選人"},{"start":6304.531,"end":6316.192,"text":"他最近說他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話台灣更重要因為台灣有半導體業"},{"start":6318.393,"end":6337.931,"text":"那麼我們要發展半導體我們要發展AI我們的台達電創辦人鄭崇華先生他在這兩天接受媒體的採訪他說如果台灣要發展AI必須用核電不可他說呀"},{"start":6338.812,"end":6338.972,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":6369.612,"end":6396.282,"text":"剛剛我的報告裡面向大院提出報告能源的政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果那現在我們進行第二次能源轉型那至於未來是不是用到核電就看核能新技術它的發展的進階如何所以大家安全無虞沒有核廢料大家有共識所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話我是有條件將來核能技術新的技術發展"},{"start":6397.222,"end":6411.826,"text":"如果能夠達到大家有共識（我們的能源政策有錯誤嗎?我剛剛在報告裡面提到了第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力的推動好 我知道啊 院長講得非常含蓄啊你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話"},{"start":6414.827,"end":6427.211,"text":"我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒。其實就是國安問題,能源政策就是國安問題。好,我們來看一下,因為我們非常關心的就是有關於電價上漲的問題。"},{"start":6429.701,"end":6450.794,"text":"。（"},{"start":6450.954,"end":6461.92,"text":"二號和二廠的一號機開始除役之後（我們撐不住了（所以我們短短的幾年之內（我們四度的調漲了工業用電（而這個條幅總共條幅高達66%之多（"},{"start":6467.523,"end":6477.065,"text":"所以我今天把我們核二廠一號機、核二廠二號機、核三廠一號機的它的除役的時間跟我們電價上漲的時間來做對比所以其實非常明顯的當核電廠逐漸除役之後台電的發電成本就節節的升高而使得我們挺不住了然後必須要調高電價"},{"start":6494.449,"end":6502.152,"text":"至於你們報告又用了錯誤的一個訊息其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長部長還沒有當部長的時候我就說我們調整電價說因為國際能源價格上漲錯"},{"start":6510.114,"end":6523.94,"text":"部長、院長你知道嗎?事實上早在今年的三、四月的時候,國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前,對不對?都已經回復了,但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢?剛才院長也點頭,我們為什麼還要漲價呢?"},{"start":6529.702,"end":6556.465,"text":"因為臺電的發電成本節節上升所以我們馬上又面臨明年的5月份立刻要面臨核三廠二號機組要除役所以我想請問院長剛才也講了鄭崇華先生講他說其實錯誤的能源政策我們如果認為錯誤我們把它改過就好了"},{"start":6558.319,"end":6582.566,"text":"包含童子賢先生也講的核綠可以共生了核綠可以共生你不要等到未來的這個核電生出來現在的核電就可以共生所以我再非常沉痛的來問一下院長核三廠全面除役是一條不能回頭的路嗎好兩點答覆委員第一個我們剛剛講的是"},{"start":6584.468,"end":6611.559,"text":"凱電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲我們知道到2023年它是下來了我們現在是2021年我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料2021年之後連續兩年上漲都已經上下來了你們還在漲什麼呢都已經回價下來撐都撐過去了你們還在漲什麼呢所以這兩年它有虧損啊我們現在在調整它的財務狀況這兩年它是有虧損的這個請委員能夠理解第二個你說到這個河山廠的問題"},{"start":6612.947,"end":6641.778,"text":"河山廠今天要研議他必須五年前就啟動這樣的研議的程序那現在沒有啟動你們修法改規定就好啦你們修法改規定就好啦河市場都都是已經通通都蓋好了那最後就沒有讓他商轉啦委員你是要我們改你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎你們現在行政權無限大啊委員你的意思是我們改人家以前說啊立法國會除了不能生孩子之外什麼都可以做"},{"start":6642.598,"end":6664.213,"text":"現在行政部門,行政權力無限大,除了不能生孩子,什麼都可以做啊,不是嗎?委員的意思是我們要把五年拿掉,還是往後延五年?我只問你,合三場,是不是勢必要除役?我剛才講這個電價,我為什麼?我擔心的是,按照這個趨勢,我都把你把它做出來了。"},{"start":6666.147,"end":6680,"text":"電價上漲臺灣的電價上漲不是隨著國際能源價格而波動而是隨著核電廠廚藝而一步一步的上漲今年兩次欸今年調兩次之多欸"},{"start":6681.201,"end":6700.308,"text":"所以我想請問一下我擔心明年一除一又要大幅的上漲啊對不對報告委員我想我們的電價就是比其他的國家我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的這個韓國跟日本韓國也在上個月又漲了工業電價又漲了9.6%這個我們都是你有沒有聽台積電說韓國他也用台積電說"},{"start":6709.636,"end":6736.483,"text":"台積電現在在日本設廠美國設廠嗎在德國的設廠他說在他的各的各個的場區用電成本最高的就是臺灣臺積電說的對為什麼呢因為你們動不動臺電供電不足動不動就讓台積電自己發電啊就讓台積電自己發電而且我們現在很神奇的啊不是核二廠已經除役了對不對核二廠經常在供電"},{"start":6737.803,"end":6753.007,"text":"為什麼經常在供電因為河外廠的汽渦輪機組要供電不然不夠啊那你知道汽渦輪機組他供電的話一度電多少錢部長知道一度電多少錢嗎現在喔台積電的電價的部分你可不可以去問他說德國的電價是多少"},{"start":6760.725,"end":6764.568,"text":"臺積電現在到新加坡都去爭財了現在大家講的日積電、美積電以後再講新積電"},{"start":6786.906,"end":6812.254,"text":"臺積電現在當然還臺灣可是慢慢日積電、美積電、新積電然後全部通通都到海外去了在海外增財在海外擴廠部長你覺得這樣很好嗎?我認為這個評估的因素不外致有一個這麼小的變動因素在講政策的時候臺積電的電只佔到它的成本非常的低的"},{"start":6814.616,"end":6836.852,"text":"臺積電的如果說電很高他不可能他的營業利益可以高達58%你知道嗎臺積電說只要我們一度我們只要一度電上漲就侵蝕他多少成本嗎我們一個部長啊如始不時人間煙火啊委員我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心"},{"start":6839.834,"end":6861.236,"text":"雙手來歡迎他們我們也知道台積電會繼續在台灣做更多的建設政府會從各方面來協助來幫忙院長我在這邊真的很沉痛的說我們討論這麼多的能源政策我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤我們現在有三大的罪狀"},{"start":6893.993,"end":6922.815,"text":"好謝謝謝謝謝謝王鴻薇的質詢謝謝總院長及經濟部長的備詢謝謝報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽是本院盧憲一委員邀請來自政治大學原住民資源中心的所有同學熱烈歡迎大家"},{"start":6925.287,"end":6926.872,"text":"在接下來我們請登記第4號張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":6972.754,"end":6995.835,"text":"請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長及經濟部長備選張委員好委員好一定要保定好那個我們最近這3年已經漲了4次電價了"},{"start":6998.39,"end":7025.792,"text":"我相信以你們這麼接地氣應該接到很多人民、民間跟企業的聲音現在是連台積電剛剛在談因為台積電在法收費上面都埋怨了結果你們剛剛還在爭辯我們看一下台積電怎麼說來台積電是在法收費喔在說台灣的電價三年漲了四次他們每度電的電費增加多少將近一倍"},{"start":7027.176,"end":7029.317,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":7054.906,"end":7060.049,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":7084.861,"end":7088.823,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":7111.238,"end":7128.515,"text":"委員長,我真人不說假話啦,剛剛為什麼特別提到?你們每次都當男人談來比,我跟你講男人談現在最新的,你只看到人家漲電價,人家為了要把電價降下來,人家最近要重啟10個新的核能的反應爐。"},{"start":7130.049,"end":7146.044,"text":"現在核電一度就是1.1、1.13啊,人家都在做努力啊,其實我們現在不是,我們現在看到什麼,你們把最便宜的核電停掉了,然後去買了很多的再生能,真的可以爭取啊,可以做啊,問題你們買的都很貴,現在產生弊案啊,現在電價會產生這個問題,包括台積電會埋怨,是這兩個大的問題,好來,現在更重要的。"},{"start":7152.165,"end":7179.582,"text":"因為院長跟部長應該都很跟得上時代潮流啊你們要有國際觀啊去看看人家新科技跟國際的大廠怎麼做為了打造AI智慧島這是你們的理想嘛對不對信誓旦旦跟人民講結果你沒有發現我們現在電力不足夠所以台灣你一賣就沒辦法設這個AI了然後你看國際怎麼做來你看看Google啊說因為AI訓練太耗電了"},{"start":7180.916,"end":7198.6,"text":"GOOGLE去買了7座的核能反應爐買了7座的核能反應爐然後呢?微軟你看微軟要用哪邊的核電?院長,我們從小就...美國發生山梨島事件的災變嘛對不對?"},{"start":7201.713,"end":7227.378,"text":"微軟用的是山梨島要重啟的核電所以你們一直在讓人們覺得很恐慌說核電多危險核電沒辦法處理全世界先進國家發生311核災的日本現在都重啟核電美國連山梨島這個地方都要重啟要供應給微軟你剛說你對我們這個國際大廠要來台灣有信心最可能的就是灰島嘛對不對"},{"start":7228.969,"end":7253.412,"text":"黃澄清阿公我印尼回台灣阿可是第一個我要一百億度電的綠電阿我們可以給他阿博定你保險你當時要給他一百億度的綠電的那個綠電我們當然他只要他開出條件我們就可以做阿那台灣現在博定你知道阿你怎麼這樣亂贏弱勒你知道台灣現在的綠電有多少"},{"start":7254.922,"end":7257.443,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配"},{"start":7273.806,"end":7273.826,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7290.47,"end":7312.402,"text":"開關開起來就有了這個是要創電那綠電基本上它有幾個綠電可能就是風力、太陽光電、地熱、氫能轉換然後稀有的燃燒可以去探捕捉的都可以形成零碳保定保定你請人家說要提醒你要緊嚴慎行"},{"start":7314.113,"end":7331.178,"text":"我們通常...通常...你是很好,你很有創意,不過我跟你講,你這個很不切合實際。到目前為止,整個國家發展這麼久,就是200億度的這個綠電,結果你一下說引漏人家100億。沒有啦,保定,你去努力啦,你回去,保定。過去到現在,不是我做保定啦。"},{"start":7332.15,"end":7333.211,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7350.02,"end":7371.98,"text":"我們現在的綠電的比例但16%左右百分之16左右我們預計到2030年我們綠電要生長到成長到百分之30%就是我們要加倍的成長我們來一個簡單的方式都是有應該是共同來促進這個事情而不是現在就認為說一定做不到我想回到各個你們縣市區委員也在爭取"},{"start":7372.6,"end":7396.928,"text":"加以多設一些科技園區我們就需要更多的電還好我們有這麼多的綠電否則這個世界大廠要來這裡基本的條件都達不到那個院長我們來一個做一個最簡單的數學題大概國小程度啦過去的八年蔡政府政府增加了多少的再生能源5.1%嘛被你5.1%我問你數學題嘛那你說未來的兩未來的兩年你沒有達到20%增加10%"},{"start":7400.956,"end":7430.124,"text":"這可不可能達得到,你們回去算一下,我不要答案,你們算,說全國民眾水準都很高,算一下就知道你在講天荒夜譚,AI的進步也不是數學題,它是幾何題,我們也有可能用幾何能力來完成,現在我們極力在推,那共同努力嘛,來來,我們共同想辦法好不好,來來,我們想一個辦法,現在核市場一直丟在那裡,我們剛剛講,我們剛剛講了Google,講了微軟,一定,來一定你想辦法這事情,有沒有考慮,你剛剛講再生能源啊,"},{"start":7430.782,"end":7436.029,"text":"現在大家捨棄了RE100現在都在追求什麼CFE就是所謂的無碳電力"},{"start":7450.094,"end":7452.236,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":7477.21,"end":7477.711,"text":"你寫出來是示意"},{"start":7492.731,"end":7494.752,"text":"新北市的居民問一下新北市政府"},{"start":7520.814,"end":7548.979,"text":"總監你可以問一下你要促成你是行政院長你要讓我們的台積電讓我們的能源購我們請努力啦院長我們至少有四個優點第一個我跟你講第一個你的核廢料跟核二端的這個處理如果台積電是認了之後他可以幫忙處理這個問題第二更重要的台積電不是講說電沒搞對不對他就有足夠的電啊第三個你也不要再花錢去維護這四個就省起來對不對而且你會把副資產"},{"start":7550.322,"end":7550.523,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":7559.974,"end":7587.082,"text":"你要匯掉核市要花3000億喔委員我第一個我同意我們如何來處理核市場的問題但是把核市場當作一個可以再重新讓它發電的核電廠我認為是一個不切實際的這個不切實際不僅來自於我們的現在的狀況對於新北市的市民對於新北市政府來看都是一個非常遙不可及的道路委員如果有這個創意委員有一個創意可以去問問看你看看Google看看微軟怎麼做"},{"start":7587.702,"end":7611.523,"text":"微軟都可以去用美國森林島的核電啊為什麼核市場現在放在那邊為什麼不能處理啊來我跟你談更重要的問題健康的問題議長你這個報告的第三頁啊你今天報告的第三頁啊你說到10月22號你看一下台電的這個發電啊這個結構是燃煤"},{"start":7614.608,"end":7641.965,"text":"三十三點二趴（燃氣（四十九點五趴（再生能源（十六點零趴（十六零（我給大家看一下（你看一下這個圖（看一下這個圖（這個圖的右上角的時間點（就是你剛提的（十月二十二號（凌晨（五點四十（你知道嗎（你報告裡面的十六趴的再生能源（是零（"},{"start":7642.813,"end":7651.538,"text":"因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊 因為太陽還沒有出來啊"},{"start":7652.795,"end":7676.508,"text":"太陽能供電雖然要做可是它是不穩定的我們也說過再生能源有間歇性所以要靠其他的橋接來補電所以你要儲冷嘛儲冷一度電要多少跟大家報告一度電要7塊錢成本是高的院長我更重要提醒你大家聽我講這個牽扯到人民健康一定我們很多人那時候五六點都起來運動了嘛對不對"},{"start":7678.53,"end":7697.606,"text":"你在你講的這個時間點10月22日的凌晨全台灣有多少人在運動準備去上班特別在運動的都變成大型的人體空氣清淨機了這樣行政院對得起人民嗎但是我們的燃煤已經降到很低降到三分之一囉燃氣它是低碳的喔院長"},{"start":7698.783,"end":7698.803,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7726.912,"end":7727.072,"text":"主席"},{"start":7744.912,"end":7761.19,"text":"你 你們有 欸 為政者是不是有責任保護人民的健康一定會選擇 你一定會選擇我們有責任講實話講實話 院長所以你怎麼樣 繼續讓人民當這個清淨的這個沒有 你這樣子指控你清淨的雞巴沒有 沒有辦法這樣子指控我再問你一個安全問題兩岸的關係 你在那畫抗中保台嘛 對不對"},{"start":7762.54,"end":7763.22,"text":"一年到一年半"},{"start":7793.154,"end":7793.174,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7816.55,"end":7818.771,"text":"我再提醒你一個點。日內瓦公約五十六條之一明定。"},{"start":7846.156,"end":7868.618,"text":"戰爭的時候,包括中美兩岸戰打起來,禁止攻擊民用的核電廠跟水庫,對不對?所以核電廠也是安全的啊,是不是這樣?好,我做一個簡單的總結,全世界都在反對核冷,只有民進黨政府現在心知白知還抱著,還意識形態,你還在反對核冷,你就看看法國、芬蘭、日本跟美國的這個個案,"},{"start":7870.415,"end":7891.53,"text":"非核家園是現在我們的法律規定我們現在的法律就是走邁向非核家園時間有限你看一下這個圖裡面深藍色跟淺藍啊都是正在用核電而且還繼續增加的只有一個地方紅色的那個就是台灣就是因為民進黨的意識形態最後我提一個點"},{"start":7920.534,"end":7938.344,"text":"我們是要肯定第一人的增加。好。謝謝。謝謝張旗開委員。謝謝卓院長及各部會所長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第五號,邱毅英委員質詢。"},{"start":7962.801,"end":7967.895,"text":"謝謝韓院長,我是不是請一下卓院長跟這個經濟部麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備選"},{"start":7976.787,"end":7995.993,"text":"院長早院長我想今天我們來討論臺灣的整體的這個能源的配比跟電價的相關問題那從早上從剛剛聽到現在我突然發現立法院變成了一個永永和大會來院長我讓您看一下"},{"start":7998.386,"end":8027.071,"text":"這個是在今年的10月22日由臺電去公布的臺灣現在的發電的能源配比很清楚的看到這個裡面沒有核電沒有核電臺灣的燃煤大概三成三左右燃氣大概將近五成49.5我們的光電跟風電也就是所謂的再生能源"},{"start":8028.977,"end":8031.839,"text":"臺灣因為核三的二號機組在稅休,所以臺灣現在是沒有核能發電的。"},{"start":8046.744,"end":8072.932,"text":"來院長這個要跟您請教這個是跟我們今天討論的議題有關能源配比我們剛剛談到了能源的發電方式包括燃氣燃煤光電等等但是我們一直討論到他的發電方式沒有人去真正討論他的發電區位在哪裡用電區位在哪裡院長請您看一下2023年北部"},{"start":8074.753,"end":8078.917,"text":"中部的供電量是783億度,它的用電量是620億度。南部供電有811度,但是它的用電只有745度。"},{"start":8098.218,"end":8117.67,"text":"換句話說我們都非常清楚臺灣長年都是供電區域不平衡院長您同意我的看法嗎長年都是南電北送用南部來發電給臺北使用來這個是未來"},{"start":8119.906,"end":8145.437,"text":"2025年的時候臺北北東的用電將會到達600萬千瓦但是只剩下和平電廠130萬千瓦可以發電如果我們的供電量繼續這樣發展下去北部的發電量跟用電量的缺口將會到達470萬千瓦"},{"start":8149.612,"end":8157.419,"text":"這個也是從台電拿出來的資料,院長您看過吧?我接下來要請,我要給院長一點時間"},{"start":8160.36,"end":8183.819,"text":"議員長您前兩天到這個桃竹苗去你說要開發桃竹苗大細股要停水電開發才會有希望我剛剛給您看的北部的供電缺口這麼大北部連蓋一個超高壓的電廠都會受到阻撓到目前為止臺電一直沒有辦法去施工那未來呢臺北人要用什麼發電"},{"start":8185.43,"end":8204.859,"text":"臺北的供電要從哪裡來那您說桃竹苗要去發展大溪谷大家現在都要去發展AI產業都要去做科學園區北部的供電哪裡來院長你說要提水電開發我可不可以再給你一點時間讓你再更詳細的說明你的水電開發要怎麼做"},{"start":8205.803,"end":8234.869,"text":"最直接最快速的看得到的當然就是我們第三接收站完成之後大潭電廠大潭電廠它就可以因為天然氣的使用可以順利的發電那它會逐步的提高它的發電量機組會開始運作另外一個就是現在還在努力環評的這個第四接收站將來的協和電廠也是要透過第四接收站來啟動它的燃氣機組那這兩個接收這兩個電廠它的量如果大起來之後"},{"start":8235.709,"end":8260.331,"text":"相對對於北東電網整個北部地區的用電會有明顯的改善目前是朝向降那其他的當然還有一些IPP民營電廠在做其他的這個努力建造過程我覺得我們還是要去說服就是說如果北部持續不給蓋電廠的話剛剛郭國文委員很強烈的反對把這麼多的電廠蓋在台南蓋在高雄"},{"start":8261.896,"end":8287.498,"text":"區域的發電平衡這個也是未來行政院應該要去考量的如果說產業的發展不能平衡的話那我們未來的這一些半導體啦AI產業全部拉到我們南部來嘛南部的電是足夠供應的嘛南部的水是足夠供應的嘛全部拉到南部來嘛對不對不能你用電要用在台北那又不給蓋電廠"},{"start":8288.991,"end":8291.417,"text":"又不給發展,這個太奇怪了吧。（"},{"start":8292.549,"end":8321.769,"text":"我還是希望能夠區域的平衡這種南北南電北送的這種狀況如果能夠把它做合理的規劃這用整個的這個輸配電的系統來看也是比較安全的是啊你的所謂的強韌電網的制度包括這個輸配電的成本降低這個其實都是在未來我們在談到台灣的韌性電網的整個大方向大計畫裡面嘛所以如果說發電的區域不能平衡的話"},{"start":8322.789,"end":8347.061,"text":"那我覺得我們南部人為什麼要一直承受南電北送這樣的壓力呢?更何況臺灣各地的發展會很快有適當的地點能夠得到大家地方政府跟地方居民的同意如果有好的地點適合開發我們也認為及早能夠儲備更充裕的電能對南北中各地都是需要的"},{"start":8347.537,"end":8375.188,"text":"多元能源的開發這個我是非常支持在經濟部的經濟委員會的質詢裡頭我也多次去強調但是你要看到這個工商產業重工業在南部發電在南部我要跟你談到這個問題未來會講到碳費的分配比例啊那我們南部多爭取一點環境部跟我們說這個不是財政分張啊這個我就不能接受啦院長"},{"start":8377.25,"end":8377.27,"text":"。 三"},{"start":8390.133,"end":8413.66,"text":"這樣不合理嗎?這樣你跟我說這個叫財政分贓。我不知道部長那個環境部是不是講得太快啦。但是如果就這樣的一個邏輯來看,我勢必是要替南部多講一些話,要替我們高雄多講一些話。來,部長。碳費在這個環境變遷法當中是有它的使用的限制性。報告委員,其實因為是媒體問我說這是不是分贓,我說碳費當然不是分贓,利益分贓。"},{"start":8414.58,"end":8430.448,"text":"如果大家誤解我向委員致歉事實上因為碳費有13個用途本來就有一個是要補助給地方因為盧市長說要八成給地方然後有原住民委員說兩成要做原住民基本上其實有13個項目在裡面"},{"start":8432.079,"end":8458.544,"text":"我們必須說整個碳費要減量的指定目標是在中央政府我認為我今天沒有要跟你討論碳費這個議題但是我講就是說區域的均衡發展我覺得對於南部的重視如果我南部減碳的減碳量比較高我南部的產業發展的需求包括你現在電廠都蓋在南部實際上你對於南部的照顧其實是應該多一點的我的邏輯概念是這樣好來"},{"start":8460.564,"end":8465.937,"text":"接下來那個環境部請回喔院長那講到這個發電講到用電量電價"},{"start":8471.345,"end":8497.136,"text":"剛剛大家也都在問嘛臺電這個電價審議委員會調整了幾次電價大家都說工業用電比較高那您也談到了臺電因為過去幾次的動漲所以臺電的財政缺口是很大的對不對所以我們在總預算裡頭我們也編列了一千億的撥補可是現在國民黨的主席說他們要發動大家來阻擋"},{"start":8500.21,"end":8525.607,"text":"臺電的這個這個撥補你的1000億補給臺電臺電是去吸收全民動漲民生用電動漲之後的成本是不是所以這個等於是撥補等於是幫助全民拿來把它跟淨法補償金一起做比較淨法補償金只有不到10%的原住民朋友是可以領得到的"},{"start":8526.26,"end":8545.223,"text":"但是對於臺灣的用電安全對於臺灣的整體的電價維持甚至臺電的營運這個一千億是必要的嗎院長您同意我的看法嗎是的好那未來你們會怎麼做呢我還是極力來爭取包括"},{"start":8546.169,"end":8546.229,"text":"。（10月30日（。"},{"start":8565.552,"end":8586.11,"text":"能夠得到大多數委員的同意。我希望周明之後能夠得到委員的同意。院長您的態度跟這個敗會其實是很重要啦齁。剛剛講到電價的問題我就要持續再請教你喔。好多的委員都說核電比較便宜,你同意嗎?"},{"start":8587.489,"end":8599.511,"text":"用核電有沒有比較便宜剛剛談到了韓國郭部長你也特別講了嘛韓國在10月24號又漲了工業電價9.7%又漲了9.7%韓國的發電量核電佔了三成韓國的核電發電量佔了三成所以韓國現在的產業電價他的工業用電的電價是也高過於台灣來"},{"start":8619.624,"end":8628.999,"text":"韓國現在的發電配比的核能佔了三成。如果核能是比較便宜的話,韓國為什麼在兩年內要七度調漲電價?"},{"start":8631.878,"end":8655.93,"text":"報告委員這個跟我們一樣主要他還是因為你看他的天然氣跟燃煤這個韓國本身沒有辦法採取到這個天然氣跟燃煤他一定要一樣跟我們從其他的國家來進口所以這個成本的結構大家都差不多的所以他但是我的看法就是說核電並沒有比較便宜"},{"start":8657.803,"end":8680.38,"text":"對不是這樣嗎對對對你的核電的發電量如果說你的核電是可以這樣子cover的話其實韓國不需要7度調漲電價嘛那大家現在一直都在問說核四要重啟要求行政院現在要重新評估核能核電的使用院長您剛有一句話講得很好有沒有去問過新北市的市民"},{"start":8681.682,"end":8705.738,"text":"合一、合二、合四都在新北。剛剛前一位委員說合三還可以放,還可以再放五年,所以那一核廢料可以放在合三,那有沒有去問過屏東人?反正不是放在他家,把人家都洗不掉,是這樣改良嗎?合廢料如果不能處理的話,要如何去談重啟核能呢?"},{"start":8707.415,"end":8719.439,"text":"報告委員這個韓國他們是在發展核能甚至於他把核能廠都輸出了但是你看看他這麼用心用在核能上面他也不是百分之百用核能"},{"start":8721.237,"end":8737.117,"text":"如果說他在推核能他應該要百分之百推核能他沒有人敢百分之百用那麼高的核能所以我現在要跟您談的就是說我們現在你這個再生能源的配比核能在台灣是越來越萎縮"},{"start":8738.098,"end":8757.344,"text":"再生能源的配比是越來越高你看到我們現在的這個比重發電結構的比重包括我們在前幾天的風力發電都撐過了颱風的考驗我們的風力發電扛下了核電退場的空缺您同意我的看法吧因為這個風力發電它是綠色能源"},{"start":8761.428,"end":8764.671,"text":"未來臺灣的風力發電能不能扛起這個重責大任當我們現在不再要求全部國產化的時候"},{"start":8780.006,"end":8780.026,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":8798.652,"end":8819.504,"text":"我們當然是可以的因為現在的科技非常的進步所以我們可以去觀察跟去monitor他的狀況所以我其實是非常有把握的就是未來的風機一定會比過去的風機表現得更好而且就像您剛才所說的這個經過颱風的洗禮他還是屹立不搖"},{"start":8824.259,"end":8838.174,"text":"在中國那個是基本上他的信賴程度沒有那麼高所以經過一個颱風雨他就折斷了我們國產化的目的是讓他具有世界競爭力"},{"start":8840.336,"end":8864.001,"text":"如果是這樣,因為我最後剩下30秒齁,我本來還要問這所謂新能源的開發跟規劃啦齁,剛剛也有談到地熱跟氫能,院長你講地熱的成本很高,氫能的成本也相對高,但是我還沒有在報告裡頭看到具體關於氫能或者是地熱開發的這些時程進度,有沒有可能再補一份報告給本席或者是給"},{"start":8865.181,"end":8891.382,"text":"立法院就你們現在有的規劃跟開發的時程地熱的深層地熱的開發目前在宜蘭園山正在探勘當中我們希望他能夠探勘出有一定的成果之後我們才向大家來做報告謝謝邱議員委員的資訊謝謝左院長部長的備詢"},{"start":8896.621,"end":8897.431,"text":"現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":9532.72,"end":9550.646,"text":"法院會現在繼續開會。我們接下來請劉許廷委員質詢。謝謝主席。左院長有請。麻煩請左院長備詢。劉委員好。院長早安。"},{"start":9563.433,"end":9581.839,"text":"這個一個好的政策通常應該要具備有一些的要件那今天我們討論的是能源政策跟電價政策我想我們要先從要件開始今天的這個詢答所以本席這個才疏學淺提出四項要件我們跟院長做一下討論本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件第一"},{"start":9583.92,"end":9608.189,"text":"發電、穩定供電是必要的。 院長應該不會反對這個事。 二任何政策不管是能源或其他都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久。 我想院長應該不會反對這個事。 第三從民主的角度問責的機制是很重要的。 任何一個政策不管是行程的階段、執行的階段、檢討的階段都應該廣大民意讓更多人來參與來問責。 我想這是重要的。 最後這個所有的政策我們"},{"start":9608.909,"end":9637.953,"text":"跟全世界畢竟不能脫鉤所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要這四項要件院長是否同意還是你要補充一個好的要件如果能夠把這個都很合理的做規劃那就是看執行的問題了剩下執行的問題對不對好那我們今天上一次總質詢的時候我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論那今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長來做對話我很遺憾的是過去這一段時間民進黨政府的能源政策我認為這四項要件他一向都不符合"},{"start":9638.553,"end":9665.114,"text":"為什麼這樣說呢?我們一項項來講第一穩定的供電我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題我跟你談穩不穩的問題2017年815大停電衝擊全台2021年513、517大停電衝擊全台到了2022年3月3日大停電衝擊全台4次超過百萬戶影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內我要提醒院長的是再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風"},{"start":9666.275,"end":9687.545,"text":"在往前追溯在上一次有這麼大規模的停電1999年921大地震這就是供電不穩那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話小規模也是2024年1到6月各大小型跳電的次數3553件比去年同期多了兩成我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災"},{"start":9688.565,"end":9704.552,"text":"這些都代表供電不穩定這第一個要件沒有達標第二有關合理的財務規劃待會我們來進行深入討論但是喔這個高昂的短購價格燃料費用債務問題長年未解我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名"},{"start":9705.932,"end":9734.001,"text":"過去以前誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上台電的倒楣啊但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了台電的收支狀況加上他長期累積的負債其實證明了這能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間第三我們談問責的機制當初的熱綠能政策在成型的過程中其實雖然是多數政府但其實是少數民意產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來那更"},{"start":9734.775,"end":9754.553,"text":"更直接的反映是2018年的公民投票其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整所以問責的部分也沒有及格最後跟國際趨勢接軌這個大家都講減碳要用乾淨能源當然剛剛很多人講啊你如果講說半夜當然綠能發不出來啊變98比2"},{"start":9756.57,"end":9777.642,"text":"中午的時候可能有兩成可是晚上的時候剩2%整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%酒火一律這真的能夠面對我們各產業減能減碳的需求嗎所以就本系列了解你這四項政策指標目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討"},{"start":9778.782,"end":9793.153,"text":"過去用這個企五煤三綠二的能源配比作為指導綱領,不但沒有辦法如期達標,現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致,我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題,"},{"start":9794.534,"end":9816.537,"text":"要提出能源政策的總檢討馬上我們要進入預算的審議兩千億的支出不管是追加或者是今年的如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討沒有辦法確保未來的政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求我想不只是本席在野黨也是絕對不會同意的院長我們開頭就這樣我們今天要進入今天的主題"},{"start":9817.838,"end":9838.021,"text":"這個能源政今天的主題是電價的政策所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算根據台電的預算書台電在2017年其實都還有盈餘我們先不論這個台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還但是你看這幾年的支出的壓力其實是非常大的"},{"start":9839.663,"end":9855.723,"text":"這個支出暴增的原因這個大家都很清楚你當然會講說這是這幾年烏鴉戰爭有原物料暴漲的問題其實如實的呈現在圖表你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的但剛剛這個我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員的這個議題的時候也講"},{"start":9857.485,"end":9883.03,"text":"這幾年這個原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛對不對你看國際這個數字天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭這當然舉例但國際各地的趨勢是一致的也就是從這個2023年的峰值已經走下來了但是回到前面這一張我們的不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出啊顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑對吧院長那這代表了什麼意思呢為什麼支出還是這麼高"},{"start":9886.502,"end":9911.26,"text":"報告委員我想從這個表我們可以觀察到就是這個購電的這個成本購電的成本大幅上升那因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電綠電都是在綠電所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項綠電的成本本來就比較高綠電的成本比較高對不對所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能我們的成本有辦法再節省嗎按照現行的能源政策他能夠再減少嗎我們現在就是在考慮說怎麼樣子讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降"},{"start":9914.722,"end":9915.223,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9932.697,"end":9932.977,"text":"臺電收入支出盈虧"},{"start":9953.59,"end":9953.911,"text":"這個我要補充一下子"},{"start":9975.785,"end":9994.601,"text":"那個虧損的部分其實是我們補貼那個動漲的我知道等一下會稀算但我講的是總體財電的財政狀況綠電的占比持續上我們在談成本的問題對不對政府持續的負擔這個短購的政策所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由"},{"start":9995.482,"end":10005.098,"text":"律電購買的成本貼補上去了所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的我希望這一件事情我講的數據是不會騙人的而是對大家來講都是公平的院長這確實是我們要面對的問題對不對"},{"start":10006.751,"end":10027.819,"text":"電價的部分跟委員報告我問院長這是不是我們要面對的問題綠電的初期當然成本是很高的我們期待這個比較成熟開發之後它的售價能電價能夠去比較穩定這是第一個部分其他就是關於成本的支出現在就是經濟部一直要求台電"},{"start":10031.282,"end":10055.262,"text":"兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉講得真好這就是本席要的未來我們在審議預算非常重要的標準我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候部長你是這個崇業集團出身對不對你當初在做董事長的時候你有沒有做個五年展望或十年展望也就是說我的集團在未來五年我預計要拓展哪些東西我的財務色算他的模型是什麼應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗對不對"},{"start":10056.984,"end":10074.284,"text":"那請問我們的台電應不應該比照辦理?如果剛剛院長已經講出來,我們要改善台電的財務結構,這件事該不該做?我講以5年,我不要講5年啦,就以這個任期,到2028年,我們現在因為政府機關我們在審預算,今年是處理完,我們編明年的預算,審議完之後我們再編明年的預算。"},{"start":10075.505,"end":10097.759,"text":"儘管政策的規劃五年十年開支票開得很快但財務的規劃每次都逐年做所以就造成很大的落差今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務的藍圖出來院長做得出來嗎是我們包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點比例上高一點因為過去啊"},{"start":10100.222,"end":10113.923,"text":"臺電經過三年幾乎百分之三十的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中而且民生電價也長期的偏低政府就用這補貼的方式那如果它逐漸的反映成本補貼的政策能夠持續的把它減緩下來"},{"start":10114.864,"end":10115.004,"text":"報告部長謝謝你"},{"start":10140.666,"end":10157.223,"text":"這樣的這個指教我來以後發現這個公務的這個預算跟這個在民間的做法是完全不一樣今天因為時間有限我們還要聊一點時間談執行的問題所以本期的要求我剛剛講第一 能源政策總檢討"},{"start":10157.984,"end":10176.532,"text":"二、台電四年期的財務規劃要出來,要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情沒有任何討論基準,你要如何說服大家,接受人民的納稅請來出名,對不對?好,你們都答應了齁,那我們希望接下來可以看到什麼時候會出來,這樣子的一個設算的模型。"},{"start":10177.799,"end":10191.938,"text":"我回去要跟台電溝通一下好沒關係我給你時間你會後來做專案的回覆我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情啦好不好那為什麼我們今天特別去談說一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提就是因為欸撥補不是只有這2000億而已餒"},{"start":10194.74,"end":10212.468,"text":"撥補從112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1500億然後疫後特別預算又偷偷的過了500億到了今年其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1000億然後馬上現在提進來還沒審查叫新增預算1000億在中間的左邊還有未來明年還要再撥補1000億"},{"start":10214.57,"end":10230.528,"text":"換言之阿是三年五千億的支出阿通通是納稅錢通通是明知明高阿我為什麼講說要檢討要設算因為你如果沒有這個東西我實在沒辦法接受這件事院長你曾經講阿在禁法補償20億的經費你講我們要下不為例你講得很大聲阿"},{"start":10231.269,"end":10260.309,"text":"那這個三年五千億我們該怎麼算呢?我們回顧起來這個包括疫後特別預算跟種種各年的這個撥補其中一部分當然是在補貼民生用電不足發電成本的這個補貼政策另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計劃他花了五...要計預計花五千六百億他這個花很補在裡面那三年五千億什麼時候我可以聽到院長講下不為例?"},{"start":10261.823,"end":10277.638,"text":"我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣的一個財務報告之後他裡面明白的告訴政府也告訴人民台電用什麼方式達到他財務的平衡在成本節節上升的情況下你看2024年"},{"start":10279.6,"end":10279.62,"text":"。 三"},{"start":10295.643,"end":10318.312,"text":"因為我們剛剛都談了成本問題這個挑戰很大對不對未來又沒有預估標準我擔心的是這是無限上綱本席不接受因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢不管它是反映在電價也好或反映在稅收也好它都是人民的財務負擔所以這件事情不能沒完沒了這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話院長你心裡有一個規劃嗎"},{"start":10319.5,"end":10343.503,"text":"就是剛剛公委員報告我向台電成都委員所要求的提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃那裡面應該告訴我們政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變他什麼時候達到財務的平衡現行的能源政策的最大問題我們談執行面的問題就是你現在的這個能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境三難困境的意思是這三件事情你只能選兩個"},{"start":10345.004,"end":10370.296,"text":"過去一段時間我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理對不對所以我們一定民生電價是動漲的狀態對不對我們還是希望維持產業的競爭力所以最後是什麼透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式把壞帳通通掛在台電造成政府財務規劃的負擔你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個這一段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式啦你必然要做出調整現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理你財政就一定要顧那現在好啦"},{"start":10371.196,"end":10385.27,"text":"財政一定要顧,你的電價一定要做調整,要反映成本對不對?那請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔?基本上是這樣,如果是照顧國人,我們當然就是產業要負擔。因為我們做出口的產業要負擔。因為他的成就是來服務外國人。"},{"start":10392.608,"end":10415.024,"text":"但我們要照顧國人這是第一要件第二個那產業我們幫助它具有競爭力但是它是必要的成本所以我們讓它可以比鄰近的國家那個成本更低的話它相對的就有競爭力我提醒院長今天時間正波了但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實產業負擔院長我們未來的這個台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔是嗎這是我們的接下來的策略"},{"start":10419.907,"end":10420.488,"text":"部長,產業負擔是合理的,像這次就是"},{"start":10426.303,"end":10448.645,"text":"這個狀況沒有那麼好的產業我們動漲或是半漲不要逃避問題但是本席也提一個解方誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢你說能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧的調整跟改變也許你三方可以兼顧啊我講的三難困境是你現行的概念你把自己綁死了嘛那個氣五煤三綠二對不對很難做花很多錢然後還造成這樣的困境應該要總檢討"},{"start":10450.126,"end":10476.097,"text":"現在天下雜誌的名義已經出來了其實名義已經改變了我們期待政府乘著這樣子的一個趨勢大膽地做調整擺脫三難困境解決台電的財務困境可以嗎好我們跟委員繼續來請教謝謝牛許廷委員質詢謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢接下來我們請登記第七號邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":10492.691,"end":10513.662,"text":"好,謝謝院長,有請行政院卓院長、經濟部郭部長。麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。院長早,院長辛苦了。院長第一個問題請教你,就是關於醫療機構,我們都動長,"},{"start":10516.448,"end":10537.459,"text":"那相關的醫事的機構也跟我有很多的陳情我也第一時間我也跟部長反映嘛針對其他的醫事機構目前電價電費動漲的情況進度部長您了解嗎還是院長部長先講報告委員齁這個醫事機構應一併納入電價動漲方案這個是確定什麼時候開始實施呢"},{"start":10548.191,"end":10560.563,"text":"應該這個院長已經有指示了我們會馬上來處理比照醫療機構大家都待會在立法院這邊質詢所以即刻動作還是從有一個時間點本來這個規劃當中經過電價審議委員會之後我們是認為包括學校包括醫院都應該由目的世界主管機關來"},{"start":10571.721,"end":10572.141,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":10598.025,"end":10612.53,"text":"我希望部長能夠擴大宣傳到底哪些醫事機構是目前已經即刻動長有些是下一個階段下一個階段電價審議委員會之後才會動長我們在上個禮拜五得到院長的指示"},{"start":10618.252,"end":10618.672,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":10648.512,"end":10669.659,"text":"這吸收的經費是由明年由2024到2025各編例一千億來彌補民生住宅的動棟缺口這兩千億,他主要目標是這樣嗎?從你的報告裡面是這樣寫喔補貼的補貼的撥補的這個預算經費不完全是這個部分還有一部分要針對任性電網對"},{"start":10674.601,"end":10701.456,"text":"這主要2000億是要針對這個動漲的民生住宅用電這個部分彌補這個缺口嘛如果說這2000億沒過2000億的這個電價補貼預算沒有通過台電該如何因應呢是不是會反映到民生住宅用電因為這2000億是要減退這個民生住宅用電的缺口嘛因為動漲嘛這是說的是今年明年的這個各1000億"},{"start":10702.837,"end":10729.799,"text":"對啦!對啦!對!那包括以前的以前年度的也有加1500億我是針對你的報告來提問啦!那這個國民黨的這個朱立倫主席說這兩千億的這個撥補預算他是堅決反對喔!我想國民黨團大概也不會支持啊!如果這種狀況之下這兩千億你要看到的是要針對民生住宅用電動漲的時候的缺口!如果這兩千億沒貴!沒有啦!"},{"start":10731.657,"end":10748.704,"text":"直接的說就是臺電的財務狀況跟我們現在所預估的又不一樣他可能會更加的問題那換回一場民生這個住宅用電的這個這電價呢那主要說波普的政策不能夠落實那台電的財務狀況又持續的擴大"},{"start":10751.24,"end":10777.799,"text":"那將來要再做如何的調整,電價審議委員會就會有他的考量。真的,如果擴大到不可逆,就可能就破產了。我們不希望這樣子做。所以這2000億你要讓社會當中知道,這2000億是針對動漲所產生的這個成本的缺口。如果這2000億不過,民生運用鏈可能會受到影響。如果民生運用鏈沒有受到影響,那可能台電受到很大的衝擊,它可能過了這個可逆點。"},{"start":10778.632,"end":10799.301,"text":"一可能財務一撞就沒有辦法再起死為生搞不好破產啦有可能的所以我們現在只有努力的希望相關的預算跟最佳預算都能夠通過你先看待這個預算這2000億是為了民生住宅用電的缺口所需去撥補的另外您的報告裡面針對橋間能源的規劃"},{"start":10803.083,"end":10830.11,"text":"2033年距離現在大概是將近10年你們增加17.86GW這些機組有哪有幾部燃氣機組分布在哪些縣市那就是大潭、通宵、興達、台中跟大嶺跟協和主要是幾個現有的電廠去增加機組對那您說這個如果規劃上限也有可能不會規劃上限需國人跟地方政府支持台電有哪些地方政府不支持"},{"start":10831.994,"end":10844.619,"text":"在你的報告裡面寫我當然希望希望能夠得到地方政府的支持跟配合我們在現有的電廠裡面去增加燃氣機組主要喬街就是低碳新型燃氣機組就快速啟停的特性"},{"start":10845.708,"end":10848.231,"text":"你會覺得為什麼到2033年沒有辦法如期建制呢?"},{"start":10865.786,"end":10877.316,"text":"這個可能我想臺電公司應該多跟這個地方政府還有這個地方的居民多溝通這個部分我們會責成這個臺電公司或者是外部的民營電廠也有可能"},{"start":10882.259,"end":10903.141,"text":"剛剛院長所說大部分都是這個目前的這個台電電廠嘛對不對主要主要你17.86GW大部分是由現有的電廠裡面去擴充的嘛我們現在比較擔心的問題就是剛才我想委員你所講的因為我們大部分會用這個低碳的這個天然氣所以這個呢我們還是要有一些接氣的這個"},{"start":10905.163,"end":10930.383,"text":"三階四階這些當然我們要全力去所以這個還要跟環境部還要跟這個地方政府要有一些程序上面的這個我想我們很樂觀很樂觀期待但是一定要全力以赴你說這條件如果能夠規劃上線就不會有缺電的問題喔對不對如果大家都支持我們台電然後支持我們的綠電"},{"start":10931.969,"end":10946.781,"text":"我想臺灣的這個高科技他要的就是這些綠電跟這個我們的電力那我順便請教您您說的核電的問題滿足核安解決核廢核廢能夠處理社會共識在我看起來是比較屬於抽象的標準跟前提"},{"start":10947.381,"end":10949.002,"text":"三項現在比較難的而且我覺得最難的是社會的共識現在社會上對於和"},{"start":10970.902,"end":10993.216,"text":"用核電或是不用核電幾乎是討論的空間是不多的所以我們現在兩條路一個就是對以後的新核能技術我們開放再來就是目前的核三廠的問題我們行政院必須依法行政明年的5月17號他就必須除役那現在核管法他就是這麼規定"},{"start":10994.693,"end":11008.829,"text":"那是不是有可能會變動我完全不知道因為我們現在是依法行政院長我的看法不只是社會共識它是高門檻核廢處理也是高門檻另外核案問題誰說了算這也是高門檻這三個高門檻變成超高門檻"},{"start":11010.103,"end":11010.223,"text":"主席"},{"start":11026.726,"end":11045.493,"text":"剛剛這些疑慮或這些保證得到一個發展我們現在也正在努力的在觀察當中好 下一個問題請教就我們如何加速這個綠電的轉型讓企業的採購環境能夠優化當然這是一個協會所提出的建議我覺得這建議可以提供給政府做參考"},{"start":11046.604,"end":11071.974,"text":"怎麼針對電政分離制度來降低企業採購門檻我想這個部長您大概是專家這個我國是不是有可能採行這部分可能要花多點時間討論第二個問題是說在供應鏈成本上漲那離岸風力國產化政策是不是有微調可能性這該怎麼調整這可能也需要經濟部去了解另外我們如何加強受限風險的分擔"},{"start":11074.015,"end":11090.841,"text":"瘦性風險檢討PPA漁電回購機制政府長您是專家但是很多人都不了解到底這個政府的政策方向在哪裡另外海洋光電獨立取得困難怎麼樣政府可以做一些的努力從中協助這四項議題"},{"start":11093.635,"end":11114.847,"text":"報告委員 我想我們這個分短期跟長期來看短期也就是2030年為止這個H100他們有規定大概在2030年他有一個第一個階段的目標那我們就是全力以赴就是2030年的時候我們讓台灣的綠電可以上升到30%以上那可以的話朝40%再努力2032年"},{"start":11116.988,"end":11117.008,"text":"委員長"},{"start":11133.616,"end":11156.978,"text":"馬上在既有的電力設施之下﹐我們可以增加﹐這四項議題只是提供給經濟部做參考﹐至於說怎麼樣去落實他們所提出的訴求﹐我想這個對綠電的轉型很重要﹐是﹐是﹐謝謝委員﹐那可能在委員會我們可以討論﹐剛剛你說提到深度接能﹐那203億﹐這個經費行政院好像還沒有明確的出處﹐"},{"start":11159.364,"end":11177.74,"text":"這經費2百3億,這經費多餘來?你這樣對獎勵誘因民間資源投入,差不多要一百五十千億。落實這個產業應付,落實節電,這16億大概已經有在新增了。我想請教一下,這個是今年的預算,今年的這個編的預算。那150億要編在哪裡?"},{"start":11181.128,"end":11203.57,"text":"你那深度節能的部分我們編在那個中小微企業裡面的這個部分設備的太舊換新對 設備太舊換新的部分我們大概在那個我們有修改了一個那個什麼新創條例那個實質產業創新條例那我可能最近就會排因為有朝委嘛我就盡快排"},{"start":11204.61,"end":11227.217,"text":"讓這部分能夠及時銜接到法律面我們真正的就是要把這個從國營的企業開始做起然後來帶動建立一個模型這個方向是正確的我是擔心這203億沒有裁員這個另外的另外的部分這個屬於這個企業自己自發的這個這樣的一個領域然後203億那個是補助中小微的"},{"start":11227.737,"end":11255.83,"text":"但是我們有更大的計畫整個大概4年下來可能要花到上兆的預算但這個不在我們的時候公務預算裡面好 謝謝那下一個問題請教就是地樂地樂不像風力它有時間限制地樂市發電的效率比較高台灣市有很好的條件地樂資源豐富但發展非常緩慢我覺得應該有好的誘因、好的政策"},{"start":11256.77,"end":11274.441,"text":"到底為什麼誘因不足要去了解高碳開安的風險高的初期投資成本這部分可以學習土耳其跟印尼的經驗近乎來朱德馬讓初期的成本能夠降低所以這部分我覺得我們有潛力但潛力沒有發揮這個很可惜很可惜"},{"start":11278.426,"end":11300.003,"text":"我提供這個議題給部長另外在委員會再來討論用電大戶條款這到底什麼時候會出爐本來是兩年之內要提出目前是5000千瓦以上是用電大戶現在2003年能源署就應該要提出檢討報告"},{"start":11301.223,"end":11325.671,"text":"到現在還是沒有那檢討報告什麼時候會出爐門檻的會不會提高這部分這部分你跟他們了解這會影響很大用年大戶的標準門檻這個我們還是會滾動式的去調整他必須要在依法要在2003年提出檢討報告兩年提出嘛那一直演一直演一直演"},{"start":11326.468,"end":11350.974,"text":"那你現在實施不出來到底用電單戶目前你們的方向是怎麼樣檢討報告是法令要兩年要檢討一次那你檢討報告什麼時候出爐這很重要門檻跟綠電的比例會不會調整這到底有方向嗎這個我想謝謝委員這個我們回去以後會針對您剛才所指示的這一個題目我們馬上去了解一下"},{"start":11351.594,"end":11372.743,"text":"今天能源署也在,能源署也在,我在找時間來討論,因為這個很重要,大家都在問,到底會不會出現,會不會趕快出爐,然後門檻會不會提升,利率比例會不會調整。如果有這個規定,我們應該可以有這樣一個答案。在生能源發展條例當中,它一個條文是有規定到說,用電契約容量達到,剛剛委員寫到,5000"},{"start":11374.884,"end":11402.38,"text":"五千千瓦以上的電力用戶他必須自己要有一些再生能源的發電設備、儲能設備或是購買一定的綠電跟綠電比例會不會提高這個我們另外再討論最後一個問題比較重要的,剛好部長也在CPTPP我是促進會的會長我CPTPP非常重要明年度是澳洲擔任人事主席對不對好,我們在明年通過進入CPTPP的可能性到達"},{"start":11404.571,"end":11406.653,"text":"謝謝!謝謝邱志偉委員質詢!謝謝卓院長及經濟部部長的備詢!謝謝!"},{"start":11432.253,"end":11435.61,"text":"接下來請登記第8號徐新穎委員諮詢"},{"start":11462.983,"end":11477.692,"text":"謝謝主席本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢徐文豪"},{"start":11478.749,"end":11504.799,"text":"院長好 院長您今天來報告能源配比以及電價政策這個是向全國人民報告是全國人民其實就是行政院的頭家頭家您認同吧是那這個全國人民沒有辦法這個全部來聆聽所以我們有了代議制那立法委員呢就是最高的民意代表是那代表國人來聆聽"},{"start":11505.956,"end":11525.846,"text":"那今天您的這份報告第一個本席覺得很奇怪這個電子檔一定要您報告完之後行政院團隊才能傳給我們各個辦公室可能是口頭報告的部分那這個是印在各位桌上都有的對對對好像感覺是一樣口頭報告比較簡化一點"},{"start":11530.915,"end":11554.438,"text":"這個報告也是今天早上才拿到,有一點慢,但是沒關係,本席今天看了一下。我們院長的報告,在整個報告裡面,我們一般在企業也是常常會有present,我想院長也知道。您覺得如果您的這份報告,如果是"},{"start":11555.857,"end":11575.234,"text":"我們的大企業家像郭台銘董事長他看了您的這份報告你覺得他給你打幾分這個報告是能源配比的跟專電價政策在電價裡面比較談到多一些數據在能源配比上面除了發電量之外對我們的財務狀況比較少觸及"},{"start":11577.519,"end":11598.921,"text":"您知道這邊裡面避重就輕不是避重就輕這個是報告的主題因為我們在所有的企業剛剛我聽到您跟牛許廷委員在這個答詢的時候有講用企業家的精神我不相信有任何一個老闆他聽到這個任何的報告裡面呢"},{"start":11599.96,"end":11625.767,"text":"一般認為時間、效益、成本這三個一定要觸及那現在環境永續又是所有面向要考慮的那我看到您的今天這份報告時間有提到我們到哪一年要做到什麼到哪一年要做到什麼效益提到部分避重就輕成本完全沒提"},{"start":11627.762,"end":11656.215,"text":"包括您提到我們的能源配比到今年2024燃煤多少燃氣多少特別強調再生能源達到10.5%風力光電多少但是您沒有告訴國人我們過去到底花了多少民眾的民脂民膏納稅錢我們到底花了多少錢得到些許些許的提升缺乏"},{"start":11658.068,"end":11683.721,"text":"這個財務報告也就是說成本你沒有告知比較粗險的算法就是我們在後面有提到在電價政策裡面有提到預估2024的電價成本每度是3.95你那個電價成本已經是後面了但是你到底投入了多少首先所以本席特別在這裡再講第二點就是說您上任的時候也特別提到我們的行政院團隊是"},{"start":11685.1,"end":11708.266,"text":"AI行動,對不對?智慧團隊嘛。那,如果要進入AI的時代,我們知道今年年底開始,很多手機就進入AI手機。這個Notebook也進入AI的筆電。那,您知道,進入AI時代,它的用電跟我們沒有進入AI時代差多少嗎?您知道嗎?"},{"start":11709.483,"end":11737.864,"text":"我這個在現在到2030年之前我們所需要的用電量裡面的分析台電已經經過一次再一次把需要用電量算出來他認為說需要的用電量需要到720萬千瓦可是我們可能會有900萬千瓦的供電量所以認為在2030年之前這個供電量是安全而無虞的2030年但是今年年底就進入AI時代了算出來了"},{"start":11739.133,"end":11765.072,"text":"那個算出來的本席在這邊跟您講如果你現在伺服器你轉成AI伺服器用電量馬上增加1.6倍來不來得及再來我們民間你應該知道現在一般民眾常常上網Google我相信這個院長你也有時候對什麼事情你也會去Google一下嘛對不對那用Google查詢跟ChatGPD這種AI的這種查詢呢"},{"start":11767.819,"end":11768.06,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":11777.915,"end":11806.115,"text":"我們台電我們的行政院團隊我們的很多的預估不要到出了問題才又一堆的托詞尤其現在你一直說用電夠但是其實民間常常反應好像常常這個電量不夠他們常常跳電很多中小企業有反應我不知道院長您知道嗎他因為跳電他很多機器燒掉那些都他自己吸收啊然後他不敢講"},{"start":11808.928,"end":11815.88,"text":"接著本席就要就這次我們提的這個能源配比還有電價政策首先來"},{"start":11819.374,"end":11842.663,"text":"蔡總統上任2016後大力發展離岸風電,宣布成立風電國家隊,喊出1.2兆產值,兩萬個工作機會。當時政府指示台電還籌組了離岸風電國家隊,當初很高調,也寄予厚望的政策。請問到現在有多少案子已經聯網發電,從受電回收投資的?"},{"start":11847.3,"end":11869.126,"text":"請檢答李彥鋒我們到現在總共的發電量2024年為止已經有2.7GW但到2026我們還會倍增到2028我們還要更增加我們逐年都有這個步驟對好您手上有資料本席也有但這個整個是進度落後的跟當初的預期"},{"start":11870.367,"end":11870.427,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":11889.448,"end":11890.148,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":11906.658,"end":11928.619,"text":"是報告委員我們都清楚這個凡事起頭難所以他的第一階段第二階段已經到現在已經進行到第三階段的三之一三之二所以已經進到一個在技術上大家是可以掌控的但是過去所累積下來的問題我們現在要逐步的解決包括委員所提的國產化問題那這個我們跟部長跟部裡面討論過好幾次"},{"start":11931.961,"end":11957.936,"text":"現在究竟要國產化還是市場化?部長不要講你的我現在就先問你接下來的政策是國產化還是市場化?重點的答覆就是在第三階段的3-13-1我們不變國產化不變3-2原則上也不變但是如果真的其中出現了這個工期啦品質啦等等有出現問題我們可以專案來討論但3-3我們主要的功能是在"},{"start":11958.596,"end":11982.005,"text":"培植我們的國內工程團隊能夠有國際競爭力希望他們能夠向海外發展所以33我們現在朝這個方向在進行所以聽起來3之3其開放就是國產化政策即將到中的意思嗎?報告委員我們是要不要講太長我時間不多我的意思就是說國產化如果只是看國內的市場就太小"},{"start":11983.165,"end":12002.596,"text":"本席了解那本席請教那些過去我們國內投入數十億甚至百億的廠商他們可以承受這樣的衝擊嗎他們沒有問題啊他必須要有競爭力啊所以等於這個政策反覆我們行政團隊就在維修沒有問題向上走的讓國內的國廠化的廠商具有國際競爭力這個上一次啊"},{"start":12010.76,"end":12014.144,"text":"政府的立場非常感謝參與國產化的這些業者沒有他們的參與我們前兩個階段也不可能這樣的展"},{"start":12029.679,"end":12029.719,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":12052.353,"end":12068.43,"text":"一既然提到離岸風電我們投入了大量的不管國家隊或是民間的資源結果呢我們目前到今年為止包含這個院長的報告裡面我們整個離岸風電佔整個供電量就是1.83%"},{"start":12071.152,"end":12091.44,"text":"但投入了那麼多資源,也是為什麼這麼多委員都建議說,那為什麼不用核能?當然核能的前提是要安全,本席也認同。剛剛也講,是不是綠電在國際有爭議,但它是潔淨的能源。"},{"start":12092.18,"end":12093.462,"text":"本席在這裡也要特別說明"},{"start":12111.785,"end":12123.943,"text":"韓國多份的官方報告指出長價的原因是因為國際能源價格導致其實本席在手上也看到我們從民國70年代用核電40%到50%"},{"start":12126.767,"end":12153.922,"text":"那80年代還有20%到30%90年代也還有十幾20%到100年以來呢就整個從17%降到5%所以這也是我們的電價為什麼一直漲一直漲過去民眾都很自豪政府也會說我們的電價是這個世界在世界來說我們是比較廉價的就是比較便宜的所以"},{"start":12154.682,"end":12179.103,"text":"本席在這裡要特別的請院長跟部長我們其實真的是可以考慮在安全的情況下可以考慮本席也聽到院長也回答說那你要問一問新北市民那本席也不禁問其實你火力發電你有問過中部地區的民眾嗎中部地區對火力發電造成的空氣污染他們是"},{"start":12179.824,"end":12181.205,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":12202.59,"end":12215.182,"text":"應該4加2變成燃氣機組保留6部是不會承受常備性的發電的他只有6部的燃氣機組這樣就會降低他的公屋這是我們對台中市民心中存滿的感激跟建議的做法"},{"start":12215.441,"end":12232.049,"text":"你不能只存滿感激跟建議有好的能源政策第一個不會用民脂民膏浪費那麼多的資源得到那麼少的效益尤其像目前我們政府的綠電其實很多剛剛也講到很多廠商他需要綠電"},{"start":12233.109,"end":12238.613,"text":"政府在大力推動再生能源的時候,有沒有想過未來廢棄的離岸風機要如何處置?廢棄的離岸風機不會只有台灣有"},{"start":12255.591,"end":12272.278,"text":"全球都會有啦?全球都會有,但是我們就要想那怎麼處置嘛?本席說未來,您可能還不知道,未來我們會一支葉片,它的重量就36噸,它的長度相當於高鐵3.26節的車廂,"},{"start":12274.719,"end":12283.49,"text":"在未來,我們有900枝葉片要破碎掩埋,它沒有辦法處理。那,面對這麼多900片的葉片,三萬兩千四百噸,"},{"start":12289.838,"end":12308.839,"text":"都要變成臺灣的垃圾山同時同時還有光電光電的廢太陽能光電板我不知道我們政府有沒有任何的政策在未來有十萬光盾我們公園院已經發展出來可以處理光電的技術"},{"start":12310.191,"end":12310.711,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12335.552,"end":12361.431,"text":"談能源配比談電價你要整體看你的時間你這個到底我們的這種綠能或再生能源你要用多久的時間多少的成本你得到多少的效益時間效益成本加上環境永續那你不能選最不好的方案啊你要選最好的方案好那最後最後最後本席"},{"start":12362.622,"end":12377.499,"text":"沒有時間了但是有關電價我們這個電價巨額虧損的政治責任我們現在沒有時間來爭論但是全民都知道填補虧損就只有政府撥補跟漲價兩個方案"},{"start":12397.307,"end":12400.648,"text":"謝謝學信委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長、各位部會組長備詢。謝謝。接下來請登記第9號何新淳委員質詢。謝謝院長。我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":12427.997,"end":12445.252,"text":"院長好 剛剛很多委員都不給你時間好好的回答那事實上在我們這個不管是能源配比或是發展再生能源的傳統的跟再生的我相信都有所謂的廢棄物這些廢棄物如何的去化那就是我們現在積極要"},{"start":12446.753,"end":12466.814,"text":"在還沒有遇到問題之前就要循環經濟要做得好我想希望環境部也應該要趕快的來思考這個問題包括剛剛部長有講的經濟部我們工研院有發展相關的一個技術跟專業那我為什麼要提到這一個同樣的臺灣占九成以上都是中小企業"},{"start":12467.756,"end":12478.776,"text":"臺灣的中小企業傳統產業那也會碰到如同我們要需要建制循環經濟去化廢棄物的一個非常重要的因素那我接著就要問喔景氣"},{"start":12480.632,"end":12509.53,"text":"上個月我們都認為說傳統產業經濟有回春但是我們今天看到報紙上這個傳統產業的經濟景氣好像是曇花一現因為9月份又回到黃紅燈那院長中小企業剛剛你有回答其他的委員說我們也非常重視扶植中小企業微型產業我們也願意編預算要來扶植那我請院長跟部長"},{"start":12510.51,"end":12519.237,"text":"是不是可以第一個就這個中小企業的這個景氣回春不如預期那我們行政院要如何的來扶植"},{"start":12520.936,"end":12546.423,"text":"就明年的中央政府總預算委員也應該清楚我們有編了115億對於中小企業的多元振興方案所以對於傳產跟中小企業我們希望將它輔導它能夠快速進入到一個數位轉型的年代它才能跟得上潮流這個是我們現在做法那其他對於一些節能的補助我們在經濟部也本來就有它現行的機制在處理"},{"start":12546.883,"end":12549.965,"text":"本院議員提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":12570.035,"end":12587.203,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、行政院院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三二、"},{"start":12598.889,"end":12598.909,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":12615.928,"end":12635.182,"text":"福祉預算可以把它擴大無限大真正幫助到中小企業微型產業的不管是數位轉型也好或是淨零碳排的目標也好這個我想包括環境部包括經濟部包括國發會都必須要跨部會在行政院的指導之下領導之下要能夠做得到是不是院長"},{"start":12637.034,"end":12657.83,"text":"是,如果是財務的部分我們透過中小企業的信保機制可以給他一些比較低利的貸款至於說如果是人員的訓練的話他要訓練足夠的AI人員我們希望用政府的力量來幫他訓練他應該不需要付出其他的這個費用、經費那這樣人員跟錢都有了我們還有其他的政策來協助他"},{"start":12658.19,"end":12676.121,"text":"院長你講一個人人不是只有政府來幫他訓練是這個人也很難找今天報紙也有講到全國大缺工也希望行政院能夠帶頭來開會來討論在面臨少子化的當下還有呢我們呢相關的不確定因素情況之下這個"},{"start":12677.862,"end":12706.908,"text":"不管是人才不管是員工這個各行各業都缺工我們對於缺工對於低薪帶引進外國的中階技術人員我們都一直在討論到禮拜天還在討論是所以我希望能夠更進一步的看到行政院在跨部會的這個合作之下我再強調一次我們對於中小企業微型企業的一個扶植是要能夠到位真正能夠落實來部長好像有事"},{"start":12707.288,"end":12732.43,"text":"這部分我想要謝謝這個委員在前幾天有指導過我們的這個產發署確實是如你所說的我們確實在執行上面有利有未待之處然後沒有很落實到最後的微型企業這一點我大概從那天這個委員的指導之下我們大概非常清楚我們會改正這一部分一定要能夠落實到"},{"start":12733.151,"end":12733.171,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":12761.368,"end":12778.868,"text":"我希望委員會來好好的去盤點這個執行的方式那這個中小企業跟微型企業呢最關心的就是政府的補助他們能不能受惠能不能感受到政府的支持跟溫暖"},{"start":12779.749,"end":12794.376,"text":"因為我一直強調半導體很重要臺灣的護國神山但是呢中小企業、微型企業也很重要他是我們的護國群山他照顧了最多最多的臺灣在地的員工我們執行的人員會來請教這個委員的經驗"},{"start":12797.817,"end":12798.778,"text":"中小企業、微型企業關心民生議題、電價、穩定供電、不要停電。"},{"start":12816.75,"end":12844.756,"text":"穩定供電不要停電大家都會講但是怎麼做是最重要的那前幾天賴總統也在開會的時候有說要強化電網韌性而且呢原來要求台電10年完成的一個計畫要能夠提早4年希望2028呢就能夠優先完成關鍵的區域跟民生相關的關鍵工程那院長請問我們政府現在準備的狀況如何那如何提早這個"},{"start":12847.476,"end":12875.863,"text":"電網韌性的這部分原來編列5600億的預算10年完成那現在我們希望他能縮短到2028年完成因為總統認為早一天完成對供電安全有幫忙所以要求早一天完成所以就責成經濟部我們希望他即使動用一些獎勵措施都沒有問題早一天完成也可以早一天達到淨零碳排的我們的總目標啊對不對因為我們都知道來部長對不起這個我們現在目前已經都把那些表做出來"},{"start":12876.87,"end":12898.159,"text":"做表很簡單,不長路,做表了之後如何去執行到位才是重點,已經在執行中,我們希望能夠這樣的做法在明年的上半年,可以把所有的紅區全部把它消滅掉,"},{"start":12898.339,"end":12915.558,"text":"那部長那我問你要做表你說好那執行那關鍵區域在哪裡關鍵就是說在你的提早的這個時程提早我跟你講表我看了很多啦那十年的規劃呢我也看了好幾年我做到現在第四屆立委大概也看了好幾次了啦那問題是呢"},{"start":12917.08,"end":12917.24,"text":"主席"},{"start":12932.708,"end":12959.841,"text":"公司一般民生的申請用電啊那個排隊是白幹肉肉等啊有時候可能還排到半年呢才等得到所以我現在在講那現在這樣子的一個總統要求提早4年要把這個電網任性的要把它提早完成建置因為這牽涉到什麼第一個穩定供電我們的電網輸配電的電網如果沒有改善的話我們現在老舊的電網他的輸配電啊是耗電的"},{"start":12960.796,"end":12960.816,"text":"。 三"},{"start":12980.987,"end":13000.809,"text":"我們現在這個地區已經都知道在哪裡然後人力因為現在比較不足所以我們現在跟勞動部正在談如何快速把這一些這個橋外生或者是國外的這個移工進來但是他們要考照所以他必須要透過一個訓練然後去考照"},{"start":13001.309,"end":13018.218,"text":"先進來的人先做不需要技術性的工作但是一年以後當他考到執照以後他就可以做台電的這個下包去服務剛才委員所關心的專案我們現在一直在進行啊一直在進行"},{"start":13018.818,"end":13039.226,"text":"專案引進外籍移工、引進技術工、在台的僑外生我們希望也輔導他們能夠進入這個職場然後輔導他們的專業跟考照大家比較擔心說他會不會進到台電沒有,他是台電的下包的公司所以不會侵犯到台電的員工的福利"},{"start":13040.186,"end":13065.711,"text":"我們都考慮了很多這個也在這個院長的這個指導之下我們跟勞動部都已經談了已經快人都快引進來了但我剛剛問的這個是工的問題對不對那關鍵的區域呢民生的關鍵工程這個是總統指示的我們要提早的對對對這個我們還是進行既有的人力趕快的把那個紅區的部分"},{"start":13066.65,"end":13068.031,"text":"臺電的穩定公信還是不太有信心?"},{"start":13086.221,"end":13114.915,"text":"是啦 報告委員 為什麼最近你看我的頁面上最近幾次喔雖然不是大規模停電但是呢小區域的停電還是不斷啊我們中小企業、微型產業不管是服務業也好或是一般民生用電也好關心的就是我剛剛講的停電如果是無預警的停電的話損失是誰在承擔是民眾在承擔是產業在承擔是業者在承擔而這些成本"},{"start":13116.991,"end":13138.276,"text":"我們有一些跟地方政府必須要再強化溝通,高壓轉到中低壓的部分必須要設變壓站,但是那個變壓站如果不讓我們設的話,他那個地方就是紅區了。 這個不是跟地方政府溝通,這個是要跟在地居民溝通,而且是要讓居民恢復對台電的信心,以及認為"},{"start":13139.236,"end":13142.098,"text":"本院內政委員會提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":13154.966,"end":13173.444,"text":"但是我們現在上來的我們台電的同仁的努力之下現在台北市政府撥給我們那個設置那個變電站所以這個是一個非常這個改變非常大的改變我會建議經濟部跟我們環境部跟衛生福利部要跨部會的去合作合作什麼第一個"},{"start":13175.386,"end":13189.941,"text":"盤點過去的設計規劃的預定地到底在現在有的已經是20年前的規劃不是現在的規劃那要重新去檢討這第一個第二個我們應該就這個我剛剛提醒的"},{"start":13190.842,"end":13190.862,"text":"。 三"},{"start":13221.583,"end":13246.703,"text":"設置突破現在的盲點這個不是我們應該要積極的嗎我們持續在進行我們一直都在進行這一方面事實上現在我們的同仁的努力改善了很多啦改善了很多這個如果說我們調資料來看過去的幾年到現在我們真的是改善非常多但是我剛剛講了跟衛生福利部跟環境部的這個共同的合作目前是沒有看到的"},{"start":13246.923,"end":13264.575,"text":"是這個是一個非常好的這個這個意見你同意嗎對不對對環境的影響是對健康的影響到底有沒有到底能不能讓民眾居民放心來支持我覺得這個很重要所以最後的最後才會跟你講真正電網"},{"start":13266.656,"end":13291.664,"text":"任性有沒有到位裁判是誰裁判是民眾嘛就人民嘛大家對台電有沒有信心大家對我們的政府的穩定供電有沒有信心大家對這個供電的相關的設施設備會不會造成他生活中的影響這個都是我們政府要去積極的溝通跟面對因為什麼人民民眾是裁判所以民眾一般人最關心什麼院長"},{"start":13293.305,"end":13303.532,"text":"無預警停電的次數在我們投資這麼多來電網韌性能夠逐步到位之後無預警停電的次數可不可以減少?"},{"start":13303.532,"end":13306.374,"text":"二無預警停電的範圍可不可以縮小?"},{"start":13307.681,"end":13307.701,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":13344.517,"end":13353.68,"text":"好,謝謝何信淳委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長及各部位首長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢我們到此為止,我們下午2點半繼續進行質詢,現在進行休息,謝謝。"},{"start":20715.58,"end":20717.021,"text":"韓國瑜委員會委員會主席"},{"start":20747.886,"end":20748.146,"text":"主席"},{"start":20792.568,"end":20797.87,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":20851.169,"end":20872.514,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20882.295,"end":20905.309,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20973.382,"end":20973.402,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":21593.991,"end":21598.946,"text":"委員會現在我們繼續開會進行專案報告之質詢接下來請蔡易瑜委員質詢"},{"start":21614.671,"end":21629.766,"text":"謝謝院長,那我們是不是有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。跟那個蔡委員報告一下,台電不能被尋,不是部長,好不好?好,那就部長。麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部被尋,謝謝。"},{"start":21636.786,"end":21643.72,"text":"蔡元豪院長好院長我們在今天在討論的主要就是台電的這個"},{"start":21645.828,"end":21670.699,"text":"就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策那這當然涉及到未來我們希望我們立法院可以排案來審是不是可以來追加這個兩千億的部分作為台電他未來的一個補充那所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下說到底現在台電他們的成本這個發電的一個成本"},{"start":21673.407,"end":21691.386,"text":"也就是說我們現在一直在強調的就是說在戰爭的時候發電的成本是戰爭前的兩倍那它的數字到底是怎樣?這個部長可以說明一下嗎?即現在,就戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是"},{"start":21693.059,"end":21706.106,"text":"現在大概稍微跟最高點比起來是有恢復了一點但是我想我們現在目前雖然這個材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前"},{"start":21707.188,"end":21712.231,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":21735.368,"end":21751.342,"text":"幾個因素嘛那我想先跟院長跟部長先聊就是說就這個購煤的成本那如果現在不管是天然氣或者是煤價都相對回到戰爭前的因素的話但是未來"},{"start":21752.603,"end":21766.849,"text":"在國際上就是說整個這個國際的情勢會怎麼變化戰爭會不會再持續下去這件事好像是一個問號那是不是如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本那院長我們有可能說賺錢的時候要賣多少"},{"start":21769.096,"end":21773.101,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":21784.096,"end":21798.83,"text":"因為國際情勢稍緩原物料有稍微下降但是陳獨委員所說的現在的國際情勢是相當的不穩定無法預期我們沒辦法預測台電在購煤等等的契約它都屬於一個比較長期的契約"},{"start":21799.671,"end":21825.58,"text":"所以現在他所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況他可能是有長期的那我們現在是說如果現在有穩定的供貨來源在目前的情況之下我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略買多或買少都可能將來是一個不知道怎麼樣的投資但是穩定先優先的話那目前必須要有一些作為這倒是應該參考委員的意見"},{"start":21826.18,"end":21854.486,"text":"因為我們是在買的可能是過去購買的煤所以可能還是在高價的煤那我現在只是要藉由這個機會我感覺我們也要去判斷未來局勢不知道啊如果我們現在這個煤價好不容易回到了戰爭前相對低價反正這個時候我們沒有出手未來萬不贏的萬不贏歐洲狀況的俄羅斯的卵的卵一塊哇那怎麼辦所以台電"},{"start":21856.055,"end":21858.223,"text":"的長久的因應因為我們"},{"start":21859.124,"end":21879.238,"text":"因為我們對於這個煤價這個狀況是無法掌握的所以我們多在便宜的時候多買一點煤是不是也是一個應該要去考慮的我們現在大概我想這個委員您應該很清楚就是說這個價格通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格特別是國際間的這個買賣都是這個樣子當然當然我們醫療我們醫療其實是這個低碳的這個天然氣會比較多"},{"start":21889.049,"end":21916.104,"text":"所以我們理論上我們應該是去把八額這個低碳的天然氣我們因為要減碳減碳是我們一個很大的目標所以燒火團的這個機械我們現在盡量不要燒了所以那個保持我們過去的這個使用量漸漸就會降所以我個人也有在討論啦對於說這個命題我們還是要去討論是不是要"},{"start":21917.085,"end":21917.305,"text":"主席"},{"start":21939.623,"end":21960.409,"text":"這個我們在計劃上面是有這就是要有你們有一個因應措施嘛對不對就是說到底這個能源配比會決定到未來整個我們需要能源那我們要有多少的戰略佈局我們要的就是避免到因應國際情勢的不穩定然後這個價格在飆高的時候哇 台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊啊"},{"start":21961.429,"end":21979.678,"text":"對,我們在買這個材料啊,就是有幾個方式啦。就是說一個是,我們如果說有這個預備的桶槽啊,就載來我們的桶槽給,這是最方便啦。另外一種是我們這個供應方,在他們那個地方,給他們那些。"},{"start":21980.518,"end":21996.992,"text":"所以這個我們都會去考慮到未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的這個路程我想這個總量的控制這個台電跟中油他們都有這個比較實際的這個Loading這樣的一個計畫在"},{"start":21999.975,"end":22016.589,"text":"所以這一個部分我們會參考我這個覺得齁我真的有必要愛愛輸客喔好那我第二個我要問啦齁因為台電啦齁市長瓦靠都給他一個名字齁這個名字聽起來齁我覺得還蠻好聽的啦就是物價消波快啦"},{"start":22017.383,"end":22021.526,"text":"臺電這是外界給臺電公司的這個名確實他也肩負這樣的使命所以我們看起來在114到113年我們看到臺電為了穩定物價照顧民生跟弱勢的一個補貼那以及為了產業電價沒有調組的部分在"},{"start":22039.338,"end":22060.181,"text":"一百一十一年就二零二二年的時候大概台電吸收了兩千八百億在二零二三年的時候吸收了兩千零八十六億在二零二四年吸收了一五五二億這是這段時間台電為了穩定物價以及為了產業的發展台電相對付出那後來我們知道說在今年年初的時候"},{"start":22060.942,"end":22080.057,"text":"我們做了一個決定認為說這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔所以就把它未來我們會在各部門的預算來編組這部分需要來做照顧民生需要來做為對於弱勢包括農漁業包括學校包括社福團體的一個補助"},{"start":22081.798,"end":22094.652,"text":"所以我們如果意思這樣說的話請看一下我2024的這個表格他這個1552億的部分是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多"},{"start":22095.738,"end":22122.325,"text":"不,補貼的政策我們正在做檢討現在已經部分回歸到目的事業主管機關去了而且過去三年公務機關沒有補足的這些預算我們也在明年的預算當中把它補足了將近百分之三十的漲幅幾年都沒有調公務預算這就是讓台電第一個能夠反映成本所以這次在十月份的調整當中我們只集中在百分之五左右的這些比較用電"},{"start":22123.459,"end":22136.93,"text":"大戶對產業的用電大戶95%的住家小商店是動漲的所以台電還是部分要承受這樣一個補貼的政策台電的同仁風雨來的時候他要出去修電線"},{"start":22139.172,"end":22167.098,"text":"務價在漲的時候他要擋住穩定物價所以經常是非常辛苦的我們最近會對台電的紅人做比較大的一些感謝動作所以部長那我想要問一下就是說好那如果台電未來這部分的我們希望說他來負擔比方說一些弱勢團體的補助那回到了部會把預算拉回到部會事實上院長你剛剛就有說啦所以明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎"},{"start":22168.118,"end":22182.778,"text":"會的 不會增加他們的負擔 不會增加他們的負擔如果這個目的世界儲管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話也可以但是相對的有一些現在在我們動漲的範圍當中所涵蓋的也同樣不會增加他們的負擔"},{"start":22184.822,"end":22212.611,"text":"那我再問下一題那就是一樣是針對台電啦台電的一個財務結構那我看起來台電的財務結構資產的部分每年都有在增加當然負債也在提高那這就是這幾年的一個台電的一個實際上面對的一個狀況但是有一個狀況我看到這個利息的支出也越來越多台電利息的支出那利息的支出從過去大概大概是在"},{"start":22215.66,"end":22233.409,"text":"一百八十億的水平到了一百一十四年就增加到了三百二十億每年的一個利息的一個支出那利息的支出的增加這是每年持續要負擔的所以我想我們如果沒有辦法現在說趕快去把台電的虧損減少"},{"start":22235.47,"end":22258.543,"text":"意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付。這樣三百二十億的利息,這是很恐怖的,每年要產生的。所以我今天也要提出另外一個想法,就是說到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來擬補台電這件事我們不知道。"},{"start":22259.707,"end":22287.34,"text":"我們真的不知道我們希望說大家為了台灣的整體的電力的發展我們希望說這個預算是可以通過但是我們不知道最後會不會通過嘛所以我也是會想說那到底還有什麼措施可以去幫台電去改善它的一個財務的一個結構我後來看到這個利息啦我看到這個利息我也想要問一下說那既然有這樣的利息就是跟銀行借的那它主要集中在哪些銀行是關股的銀行嗎"},{"start":22289.335,"end":22289.656,"text":"臺銀最多數臺灣銀行"},{"start":22303.691,"end":22324.57,"text":"臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行對所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望"},{"start":22325.251,"end":22340.368,"text":"因為我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多我也希望台電在於說跟銀行要借貸的時候要慎選銀行不要變成說讓銀行勒讓銀行就是平白無故"},{"start":22341.206,"end":22368.583,"text":"他就得到了這樣的一個放寡因為大家都對台電有信心啊台電一定會支付利息的台電那我可以來看理性所以我是覺得說盡量還是要跟台銀來借啦因為台銀畢竟他就是畢竟他還是政府的當然是說台電你們有怎樣的一個規劃可是我覺得避免利息的增加然後產生弊端這個我是覺得跟委員報告確實資料上看起來是台電的"},{"start":22370.662,"end":22398.684,"text":"臺電臺銀是比較大臺銀是比較大那如果我們成功從利率或是新的措施上面來著手來降低臺電但是也不會影響臺銀比較大的這個營利的這個我跟他說因為我們如果白白的臺銀就已經就是白白兩個都是關股嘛兩個關股之間可以去調整那如果我們去跟其他的比較民間的銀行有貸款的話歐益理事會可能"},{"start":22399.971,"end":22400.411,"text":"二、行政院院長"},{"start":22416.717,"end":22437.916,"text":"你把這個事件一攤三百幾我看起來我就嚇一跳所以我覺得這個事趕快把一些負債趕快把它攤掉就是說我們需要利息的費用再把它壓下來對於台電就馬上會有一些很快的一個減少你們的現金支出啊"},{"start":22440.056,"end":22449.022,"text":"謝謝委員這個部分有關於這個臺電的這個財務方面在融資上面我想我們會來努力來降低這個應繳的這個利息的這個金額"},{"start":22452.912,"end":22480.333,"text":"第二,我要感謝台電這幾年推動電纜地下化,有不錯的成績,在屏東種樹百里,那邊現在很漂亮,甚至在鋪子市也有開源路的電纜地下化,但是我們也知道說,在於小選颱風之後,我們知道有一些紅胎,每一次紅胎來,電位條就都倒了,"},{"start":22483.013,"end":22491.687,"text":"等徽條得以,所以我是希望說臺電我們應該再去盤整說我們電纜地下化會支出一些成本嘛,先本會比採電徽條更高"},{"start":22492.691,"end":22495.253,"text":"阿如果這個成本你們香蕉對焦去把它拉起來做電纜地下化相對比較齁動動的時間比較久"},{"start":22514.507,"end":22539.947,"text":"新聞優等來看是比較會好的我覺得台電應該好好的去思考盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化而且這個推動的速度再大力一點是 報告委員我們會再考量在地質、地理跟工程技術、裁員等這幾個前提之下來評估地下化的可行性我認為這地下化台灣真的是電費條太多為了整個台灣的整個街景、市容"},{"start":22548.295,"end":22574.883,"text":"謝謝蔡議員與委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢。謝謝。接下來請登記第11位,洪森翰委員質詢。謝謝院長。那想請卓院長跟郭部長。麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢。"},{"start":22586.274,"end":22593.814,"text":"董委員好呃主任長跟郭部長齁其實在我今天的質詢之前因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡宇委員"},{"start":22594.625,"end":22621.979,"text":"其實一開始的時候有一段講到說到底我們目前的化石燃料的價格包括燃煤跟燃氣跟烏鱷戰爭之前比起來如何我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏鱷戰爭之前一樣可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下就我目前手上的數據目前燃煤的價格其實應該是在烏鱷戰爭前還高出一倍雖然已經從最高點"},{"start":22623.291,"end":22651.113,"text":"每噸400塊美金降下來現在140塊美金但還是烏俄戰爭前的高出一倍那天然氣的價格呢也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%所以我說這部分我還是要提醒一下部長免得這個可能如果媒體寫出去那大家會在會很困惑那我們接下來說台電要來追加減預算等等等後面這些財務上面的方案的原因這部分我還是要提醒一下部長是謝謝"},{"start":22653.359,"end":22669.777,"text":"那我今天的質詢其實想針對跟院長跟部長是要討論關於離岸風電的問題我想大家都知道最近其實離岸風電的國產化引起很多的討論尤其是在歐盟這個狀告WTO之後我看到部長其實也有一些公開的表示"},{"start":22670.68,"end":22695.634,"text":"那我其實一直很長期非常關注聯合風電的政策也很多這些產業界的朋友其實大家很密切的討論那我必須說其實風電國產化的政策當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展的機會這是確定的但如果仔細看這個過程比方說我們確實現在看到一些本土供應商他供應的能力或者是供應的時程上面的一些變數那也包括這個"},{"start":22697.881,"end":22723.907,"text":"有一些銀行在融資上面也會在也從這個角度上面有一些猶豫的因素我自己我自己覺得確實有一些政策的環節是需要做進一步的相關的檢討跟討論是有這個討論的空間的那不然我其實我看到你之前有講到一個很重要的概念說希望接下來我們聯安風電其實很重要的事情是要可以如期並往是嗎是"},{"start":22725.421,"end":22734.3,"text":"部長我想請問過去我們幾個風場如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話就你知道可能的因素有哪些原因是什麼"},{"start":22736.389,"end":22763.711,"text":"過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商當然有很多啦有他自己資金的問題但我說就你知道的有哪些因素資金的問題、技術的問題然後國廠化不足的問題這些都是造成他沒有辦法如期併網還有俄烏戰爭那因為戰爭的影響那歐洲的船沒有辦法進來台灣來做施工我想這些都是環境上面造成"},{"start":22764.191,"end":22790.243,"text":"我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業其實我們在過去的經驗裡面學習那大概其實可以看一下我們這幾個我們把其實過去具體發生的無法無期併網的原因看到一些比方說滑樁這是技術的問題比方說貸款上面那不順利就是融資上面財務的問題也包括有些工程上面的問題包括國產化交貨上面的問題"},{"start":22791.663,"end":22815.545,"text":"也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅業能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同不同意完全同意"},{"start":22816.428,"end":22844.466,"text":"部長那如果我們很明確知道說這些因素其實都是我們過去一段時間以來風場他很具體的風險因素的話照理來說我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理的策略對不對甚至我們應該在我們的遊戲規則裡面選商的遊戲規則裡面該把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標應該要設計進去部長同不同意我同意這個委員的指教部長但是現在我們其實看到的狀況是這樣齁"},{"start":22846.741,"end":22861.062,"text":"其實我們在我們現在聯風電的選商的過程裡面其實第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力財務能力這些事情但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻幾乎所有的廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻"},{"start":22862.455,"end":22889.956,"text":"但實質倒是到第二階段的競比我們比兩件事情第一個比價格第二個比國產化承諾但大家都知道現在價格大家的投標都是零元競標所以價格已經不具鑑別性了以至於我們現在所有的廠商所有都在比所謂的國產化承諾這一個所以真正的我們在整個選商的過程裡面真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾坦白說我自己認為這有點偏實"},{"start":22893.306,"end":22917.497,"text":"報告委員您的這個指教我個人非常的敬佩因為我們還是看到問題我們的問題是在是不是如期能夠併網所以我們現在的態度就是說如果這個他們有需要我們的協助的話那麼讓他能夠如期併網如期併網才能夠避免我們的這個綠能政策"},{"start":22918.437,"end":22942.959,"text":"市長 但是我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題遊戲規則設計的問題我現在在說的事情是說我們過去明明看到有些是因為技術問題是因為融資財務的問題這些能力的差異應該要被鑑別出來可是在我們過去的這一整套的這個選商的遊戲規則裡面看起來對於這些具體的風險因素看起來好像沒辦法"},{"start":22944.445,"end":22968.258,"text":"他亦給鑑別出來他只放在第一階段的那個基本門檻幾乎大家都會過啦簡單來說所有人都會過啦可是你看到有些人雖然看過了這個基本門檻但他最後還是發生了技術上面的問題還是發生上財務跟融資上面的問題這代表是我們這整套的遊戲設計我認為是有一些調整跟檢討的空間的尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的這個承諾"},{"start":22971.363,"end":22998.994,"text":"那現在大家對國產化部分討論當然很多我覺得這是一個好的討論可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題的時候我坦白說我怕會有一點見數不見理所以我們的離岸封建政策照理來說我們應該顧及的面向很多啊怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾而且這國產化承諾我說實話當我們偏廢在國產化承諾的時候就會有很多廠商我覺得很可能在當時在面對我們政府的時候會做出過度的保證"},{"start":23000.514,"end":23027.93,"text":"話講得有一點滿什麼一開始都覺得都可以做得到但後來實際上面好像不是這樣甚至要被開罰被處罰變成是我們風風場能不能夠如其並往的變數這就影響到了能源政策了對不對所以部長我現在在這邊想要跟院長報告我自己覺得關於國產化政策我們當然可以檢討可是這不是一個0跟1的問題"},{"start":23029.694,"end":23049.856,"text":"現在這些具體的因素包括我說技術的專業能力財務能力包括是你應對這些社會環境的溝通的準備的能力這些能力如果是重要的風險管理的指標的話都應該具體的設計進去我們選商的遊戲規則裡面而且要有鑑別性不能像過去一樣這樣沒有鑑別性啊部長同不同意"},{"start":23050.816,"end":23075.433,"text":"我們完全同意這個委員你的指教所以我們會在3之3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點所以我們要先以這個能夠併網的時間為第一優先這部分我的想法是跟你很像因為併網這關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題"},{"start":23076.494,"end":23100.842,"text":"第二是我其實因為我剛才這是我剛才第一個建議我的第二個建議裡面我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例我認為是可以降低的但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目的選擇的彈性其實可以拉大如果我們可以把項目拉大的話可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的這個國產項目他這樣選擇拉大的時候他反而可以跳出來"},{"start":23101.582,"end":23112.659,"text":"甚至可以聚焦讓他甚至未來有機會可以變成輸出發展的我們的這個項目那可以把這個彈性給拉大所以有兩個具體的建議部長你覺得都同意吧"},{"start":23113.868,"end":23135.768,"text":"一個就是說應該放入其他風險管理的指標而且要有具鑑別性第二個剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目可以跳出來甚至被選擇甚至讓他有市場我們未來可以培植他有機會他可以出去輸出這兩個院長、部長你們同意嗎"},{"start":23137.379,"end":23154.945,"text":"經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃應該是就朝向類似這樣的目標在走尤其3-3的部分我們希望他未來在台灣風場建設到一定的程度之後他必定要用這樣的基礎的能力往國際去做發展所以培養他國際競爭力是必要的"},{"start":23155.365,"end":23181.794,"text":"那麼三至二的部分如果確實因為品質或者供期沒有辦法如期併往或其他種種的因素對國產化造成其他因素不能如期併往的話我們是可以採取個案來處理的而原則上我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一期第二階段第一階段第二階段的努力那第二階段如果有這種狀況剛剛說的那我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題"},{"start":23183.254,"end":23209.206,"text":"所以部長我想請問其實針對這幾點其實我們提出來的建議如果你剛才說同意的話能不能在比方說三個月的時間裡面那做一個相關的這個我們選商規則上面的檢討那相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室這可以嗎?好的那接下來部長我跟院長我其實也想跟大家在接下來討論我還剩一點時間是想要討論關於小水利的問題我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能"},{"start":23210.39,"end":23239.235,"text":"那多元綠能裡面包括地熱包括小水利甚至包括生殖能都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外其實需要大力發展的項目那我其實過去兩三年的時間其實也協助蠻多小水業項目其實去處理包括去做他們環境影響的把關生態影響的把關但是我必須說現在這個目前小水利的我們整個制度跟機制還是有一些業者其實他們是有一些擔心的下面一張"},{"start":23240.035,"end":23261.464,"text":"其實小水利的優點蠻多的包括其實它可能有24小時穩定發電它的維護成本低、環境衝擊小有利於融入環境跟水域中包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠可是我剛才說到其實很多業者包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友他們都跟我們反映我們目前在小水利制度裡面下一張有一個問題我們目前只設定了兩個短壽費率的差異點一個是500K"},{"start":23270.302,"end":23274.646,"text":"三種費率讓我們其實有很多的社區公民電廠或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的其實他都是在這個500K以下"},{"start":23287.898,"end":23313.786,"text":"那500K以下它的費率坦白說它的成本跟我們的費率相比起來它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500K以下來的高很多的所以下一張吼我們現在看到其實很多實際上面算起來的話這個小於這個500K瓦的情況裡面算起來按照我們的短收費率算起來1K瓦是大概19.4萬可是實際做起來大概會到30到40萬之間"},{"start":23316.527,"end":23342.754,"text":"這個問題是出在我們的費率的級距設計不夠細不夠為各種不同的規模去做設想所以在這邊我想要先建議經濟部也好跟行政院也好如果我們真的要大力推動小水利的話我們應該對於這個費率的級距應該要來擴大我說增加更多費率的級距尤其是對於這種比較小型的它是可以"},{"start":23344.195,"end":23344.455,"text":"（10月29日（。"},{"start":23359.395,"end":23373.521,"text":"是的 我會跟這個農業部來討論一下就是您剛所指教的這些農業所用的用這個小水利的部分但是費率的級距是但費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊級距的部分我想我們會來計算是"},{"start":23375.262,"end":23402.021,"text":"因為我們之前看到其實確實有那時候費率審議的委員說因為小水利的這個計算比較方式然後樣態比較多所以他們其實現在覺得案場不夠多所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距可是我覺得這是雞生蛋單生雞的問題你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加那就不會有小型的那案場就不會多那回過頭來你又說那我們不好去計算所以這裡面凸顯第二個我想要講的事情"},{"start":23402.481,"end":23424.731,"text":"我想部長應該很清楚我們之前大力發展光電離岸風電、地熱其實在經濟部內其實都有一個專業的幕僚團隊我想部長應該很清楚他可能是很多的法人在做支援的部分不是只單靠我們的公務人員那這個專業的團隊其實目前我們在小水利其實比較沒有看到確實如此"},{"start":23426.131,"end":23449.236,"text":"導致的狀況是我們的公務體系其實對於小水利的國際最新的發展包括他有很多機組的形式其實都相對陌生所以他才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的體貼的或者是合適的制度或費率的設計這是我們之前看到的狀況所以很多業者來跟我們說到他們覺得說如果我們要發展小水利就像之前光電、風電包括現在地熱的發展的話"},{"start":23451.776,"end":23454.338,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":23481.707,"end":23510.004,"text":"不然我這邊針對小水利第二個建議是是不是可以讓小水利也有一個專業的幕僚團隊來提供向封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封...封"},{"start":23512.301,"end":23527.833,"text":"接下來我們請登記第12位張家俊委員發言院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":23537.698,"end":23552.534,"text":"主委院長好那今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電遇到用電高峰呢他就會關掉民眾的家電院長您知道這個計畫嗎"},{"start":23553.775,"end":23571.646,"text":"你說的是住商節電的設施嗎?不是,是遠端斷電計畫,遠端斷電計畫。很明顯喔,應該是官邸沒有加入,但是您自宅有申請加入嗎?沒有。沒有。那請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎?有沒有在座的各位我們的這個部會首長們,有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎?可以舉手嗎?"},{"start":23583.134,"end":23608.172,"text":"你有加入啊?surprise me我聽過你聽過我真不意外沒有人加入喔本席上週跟台電索取這個志願斷電計畫的執行成效一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供一直到我告訴他們說假設你們沒辦法提供我就要直接問院長囉他們才迅速的把他送來結果我發現喔"},{"start":23610.313,"end":23610.553,"text":"臺電與其在這裡"},{"start":23635.948,"end":23648.987,"text":"打這個民眾的家電的主意不如好好想一想這個能源配比到底要怎麼調整我接下來也再請問一下部長說目前我們台灣的能源配比目標是什麼"},{"start":23650.029,"end":23669.997,"text":"我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把這個綠能佔30%然後這個本來明年的目標呢院長你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎原來我們在第一次能源轉型我們希望是這個"},{"start":23672.068,"end":23689.095,"text":"天然氣用50%煤用30%綠能用20%有可能達成嗎?2030年我們是希望說天然氣能夠維持50%但是綠能再生能源要加到30%把煤降到20%"},{"start":23690.031,"end":23711.3,"text":"是這就是本席非常擔憂的因為本來說明年要達成但是呢非常明顯的已經告訴我們說沒有辦法達成目標已經跳票了但是呢現在社會上關心的已經不是能源配比的這個目前你們會不會達標了大家關心的是就算你達標了"},{"start":23713.359,"end":23731.711,"text":"我們的供電穩不穩定我們的電費能不能調降還是會再調漲那還要再多花多少錢大家都知道天然氣再生能源都比核能貴那麼多那還要再預算補助嗎要再補幾千億呢這個你們有考慮過嗎請問院長你有考慮過調整這個能源配比目標嗎"},{"start":23736.334,"end":23756.928,"text":"能源配比是這樣,我們希望能源配比再生能源能夠在2030年達到百分之三十。所以大家就算起來,我們在2026年會達成一半,百分之十四點五,但2028年會達到百分之十八點多。是,那部長沒有算過達到我們要付多少的成本嗎?我想要請問一下院長,請問"},{"start":23759.669,"end":23774.632,"text":"臺電現在帳面上到這個月為止虧損多少錢你知道嗎?那目前他財務虧損應該是達到4200億左右差不多4200億那如果按照您現在預計今年1000億明年1000億撥補了2000億我們等於還有2200億的缺口那這個部分我們打算怎麼做?繼續漲電價嗎?"},{"start":23783.887,"end":23801.284,"text":"電價今年調整兩次尤其第二次我們調漲的範圍非常的小但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊但是以穩定民生為優先那未來電價審議委員會應該也是會朝這樣的原則去做考量"},{"start":23801.944,"end":23821.002,"text":"有關於電價的問題,臺積電法說會上上週召開,臺積電就說臺灣的電價在這三年漲了四次,如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍。臺積電還說,他說相比美國亞利桑那廠跟日本熊本廠,臺灣廠區現在是最貴的。院長,您覺得這會不會影響我們臺灣的競爭力?"},{"start":23827.768,"end":23846.498,"text":"第一個我們在反映成本的這個原則底下目前的條幅只是略略跟成本超過一點點這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施至於台積電在國外的電的場區用的所任何的電他因為電的來源不一樣"},{"start":23847.358,"end":23847.978,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":23863.786,"end":23891.068,"text":"我看起來不是很在乎官位以前呢撥補的政策你本來說不能撥補之後又調整說可以接受撥補那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改呢既然你都有慈觀的Guts有這個為什麼不把這一份魄力用在努力爭取為台灣爭取核能呢報告委員我是行政院經濟部的部長是所以我是團隊的一份子"},{"start":23891.67,"end":23908.37,"text":"所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取說這不是你的初衷嗎?就是義無反顧的去爭取核能研議啊?我們都有在關注新的科技能源那等一下我就跟你說你是要跟我講那個什麼SMR對不對?"},{"start":23910.703,"end":23927.714,"text":"你要跟我講SMR我就跟你講SMR它產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還差多5至30倍假設我們可以接受SMR為什麼我們不能夠重啟我們傳統的核二核三"},{"start":23929.415,"end":23956.51,"text":"為什麼您剛才這個命題其實是我想院長我們從過去一直到現在都在講我們對核能的關注就是第一個他是大家有共識第二個核廢料可以處理第三他是安全的是所以呢我不曉得說假設院長假設部長他很極力的跟你爭取說他覺得台灣如果產業要繼續發展我們還要支持AI產業必須要重啟核能您會聽下去嗎"},{"start":23957.401,"end":23986.987,"text":"部長現在跟我們在努力的是我們如何發展多元的綠能那在這個前提命題之下問題是綠能很貴啊天然氣也很貴啊我們台電就算波普兩千億還虧兩千兩百億那未來怎麼辦呢我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎到2030年之前我們的供電的計畫上面來看還是可以穩定的供電至於說發電成本我們現在這種結構我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低我們的發電的成本還是比較低的"},{"start":23987.227,"end":24012.128,"text":"我仔細引用一下昨天台達電的創辦人鄭崇華他剛剛得了這個李國鼎獎獲獎之後呢他就說全世界都知道核電最經濟最安全他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府說如果當初做了錯的決定招令細改未嘗不可企業的喊話其實不只這一例我不曉得院長有沒有聽到"},{"start":24013.53,"end":24042.264,"text":"我們資料上顯示我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到而且是具體的而我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標是院長我相信你也很努力但是呢本席想要提的另外一個問題跟錢就沒有關係了現在核三廠的二號機在稅休41天的稅休實際上我們台灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標但是呢"},{"start":24043.376,"end":24067.915,"text":"在沒有光電的凌晨火力發電佔比高達98%與其稱現在是非核家園本席認為現在應該叫我們台灣叫火力家園這8年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多導致我們火力發電要補300億度電然後碳排大大的增加後果是什麼"},{"start":24068.655,"end":24086.123,"text":"後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康用費發電前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅這個是完全不同層次的問題難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎"},{"start":24087.324,"end":24102.658,"text":"謝謝委員早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問那我們跟他說清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字沒有錯但是在10月22號當天我們所看到的"},{"start":24103.599,"end":24121.029,"text":"再生能源已經達到百分之十六的發電院長我只問你說你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎沒有我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少它的負擔院長我必須再一次提醒您核電不是敵人暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人"},{"start":24123.977,"end":24138.926,"text":"對,我說過核電本身是中性的但是它的成本要計算它未來核後端核廢料的處理那個是一個隱形的成本我們要計算在現在但是你們都願意支持SMR啊"},{"start":24139.606,"end":24163.822,"text":"SMR的這個核廢料產出是5倍至30倍你們都願意討論了為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行?報告委員開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術是我們對所有的新開發的核能技術目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎?經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎?我們有其他方面的研究啦"},{"start":24164.082,"end":24183.914,"text":"如果這一方面研究有報告出來,麻煩提供本席一份好嗎?因為這事關著臺灣的未來,我們經濟會不會受影響?會不會開始衰退?我們人民的生活會不會受影響?影響非常的大。是,報告委員,我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急啦。"},{"start":24184.514,"end":24203.729,"text":"我們現在為什麼極端的拉這個綠能是因為H100的關係他在2030年但是在你拉綠能的過程我們民眾都用肺在發電你要等多久才能達到你的目標你知道嗎2030年就等於還要等五年六年這五年六年要犧牲多少人民的健康接下來想要問農業部部長"},{"start":24210.575,"end":24216.479,"text":"部長請問一下部長昨天被傳喚您是用什麼身份被傳喚"},{"start":24220.287,"end":24245.156,"text":"我早上已經說了齁因為有人告我所以是以被告的身份被傳喚真的是有人告你嗎?這個如果據我所知這個是農業部自己移交檢調檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告這個一般的有人去按鈴申告是兩回事的被告喔對是兩回事情但是在去年八九月的時候就有不少的"},{"start":24246.468,"end":24272.624,"text":"外界的議員的部分來提告我先請問您昨天您被約巡了多久應該有將近三個小時吧將近三個小時請問部長今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的那為什麼如果都合法為什麼會有人需要交保也被監察院糾正您在約談的時候還是監察堅持全部合法嗎"},{"start":24273.524,"end":24286.116,"text":"我想整個的一個採購程序合法但是他有行政瑕疵這個我之前就講過了監察院有做一個糾正但是裡面的陳其中局委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎"},{"start":24288.493,"end":24309.929,"text":"我想在整個的過程裡面是一個符合我們的公務的一個遊戲規則去走的那至於說廠商之間的一些不可能去調查行政單位不可能調查的部分我們才請檢調單位來調查這就是我想要問院長的一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告"},{"start":24311.541,"end":24317.796,"text":"難道不需要停職嗎?這個情節是相當重大的耶!院長您覺得不需要停職嗎?報告委員"},{"start":24320.836,"end":24340.548,"text":"行政政府官員無論用什麼身份去應應到司法的調查我們所著重的是司法調查能夠清楚的告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任那部長說的已經有人告他所以他是被告的身份不會產生篡證跟滅證的問題嗎"},{"start":24344.476,"end":24366.513,"text":"這個我想在部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的這個制度我會要求南報檢察官是隨便代案隨便把他列成列為被告嗎?我也會當場在這裡要求部長要全力配合司法的調查對於我們部內所有就算他不是共犯南報都沒有行政責任嗎?"},{"start":24368.015,"end":24371.017,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源"},{"start":24387.323,"end":24411.699,"text":"這個草屍彈的問題在去年一直發展到今年都有經過行政院或是政府內部的調查520之後我們是曾經看到這樣的調查我們沒有啟動新的調查程序所以目前的階段還是原來跟外界所報告的過程裡面那本席再問一下院長假設陳部長不幸被起訴那需不需要停止那我依法辦理"},{"start":24412.574,"end":24412.954,"text":"政府應該主動出來"},{"start":24446.634,"end":24473.706,"text":"謝謝,謝謝張家俊委員質詢,謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。接下來請登記第13位鍾嘉斌委員質詢。主席,在場委員先進,列席的政府機關所長官員,在場的媒體記者女士先生,我們有請"},{"start":24474.622,"end":24500.9,"text":"我們卓院長還有劉竹偉、郭部長麻煩再請卓院長還有陳部長陳部長劉竹偉農業部陳部長中委員好院長好在其他三位部長到位之前在今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理而且進口再生能源要規劃最新方案在此之前"},{"start":24502.154,"end":24518.056,"text":"這幾天一直有個議題繼續在延燒就是高鐵延伸案那我想在這裡呢記得在上次我諮詢院長的時候我有提到一個臺南案院長說你沒聽過嗎當初我們在第一次接觸到這個案的報告裡面就是四個案"},{"start":24518.956,"end":24542.332,"text":"就是燕巢案、左營案、高雄案那我要提醒大家其實呢它原本叫做燕巢案那這個有這個案子請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下好不好喔燕巢案是不是燕巢案那另外呢我們也看到大家的討論都在於說什麼路線要用哪一條路線其實關切的都是工程的施工期程還有拆遷的問題對不對但是我認為高鐵呢另外要考慮後續的營運因為"},{"start":24544.059,"end":24568.413,"text":"路線的選擇會影響到後面的營運的可行性這一點也請你們研究的評估好不好好的第三個我認為高鐵應該與台灣來同步永續發展所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線新幹線它怎麼永續發展呢首先第一它會定期的更新列車跟車廂升級目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年了下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來"},{"start":24569.554,"end":24596.404,"text":"二、要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸所以你看儘管北海道人口減少日本的新幹線還是義無反顧的繼續開到北海道就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能你同不同意?交通先行發展社區這應該是一個非常正確的方向但是我們要投入比較多的建設資金"},{"start":24598.405,"end":24611.861,"text":"院長可以用這個方式,我明天會請教交通部長好,我們來談今天的我們的能源政策那請教一下部長,國部長2023年我這邊給你看了一個發購電量的結構跟成本結構目前我們的燃氣發電有12座"},{"start":24614.484,"end":24635.96,"text":"藍煤有六座,核電有三個機組,記住這個十二、六跟三。目前當分別占比呢,燃氣的占將近四成四,藍煤的占三成四,我有注意到他們成本差不多都三毛五,三塊五,但是呢,總共啊,大概要花了三千多億去買天然氣,兩千多億去買煤炭,國務長,大概是這個意思。"},{"start":24637.093,"end":24664.026,"text":"沒有錯齁但是我們看核電他目前呢我們看到的呢他大概啊三個機組呢佔我們佔比7%那大概呢要用掉200多億那我有注意到啊這些錢花到哪裡去以燃煤跟燃氣大概國際貿易商供應嘛另外呢核電廠呢後續的核燃料棒這些維運嘛那我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低才一塊三毛多部長你覺得問題出在哪裡"},{"start":24666.021,"end":24680.912,"text":"我們在這個後面的後市成本沒有計算對這個核後端沒有去計算而且目前核電廠呢他的所有的固定投資已經攤提完了他現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜最便宜的不可能再便宜了是不是這樣"},{"start":24681.673,"end":24701.585,"text":"好那部長、院長我們往下看齁但是另外呢我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應光電是其中之一光電只佔不到5%成本呢4塊1毛3你覺得是貴還是便宜部長、院長你覺得這個4塊多便宜還是貴就光電目前這樣的發展"},{"start":24703.251,"end":24703.291,"text":"主席"},{"start":24727.49,"end":24728.311,"text":"發展新能源綠燈蟑螂"},{"start":24749.223,"end":24767.962,"text":"確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形所以我們也從歷年下來也相當多的案件現在正在偵辦當中我告訴院長原因往下看因為我們看看以國發會的大樓來看國發會的大樓的發電大概每單位的面積的發電量是625度一坪"},{"start":24768.612,"end":24770.832,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":24793.291,"end":24822.034,"text":"院長有沒有看出問題來了我再講一次我們的燃氣機組才12座我的燃煤機組才6座我們的核電機組才3座好不好管理相對好管理所以當你發現這麼多3000多個地主要去做光電發展的時候這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端我覺得是土地使用上是的所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中跟我們經濟部台電營運有沒有關聯"},{"start":24823.985,"end":24824.025,"text":"主席"},{"start":24850.134,"end":24877.566,"text":"跟委員報告,現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2164公…還有沒有開發光電的餘域?現在目前整個我們餘電工生跟不利耕作區裡面使用大概只有只佔了10%還有很多的面積可以開發光電嗎?還有90%的空間是可以利用的還有很多空間?好,有人說,有位董事長說如果台灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發作的話台灣六分之一要蓋光電板?郭部長你同意這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":24881.288,"end":24905.351,"text":"謝謝陳部長請回剛才委員你是說臺積電要用這個臺積的電通通用光電板發臺灣有六分之要蓋光電板有這樣需要嗎應該是沒有必要沒有必要好但是呢我現在要提醒的就是說兩個結論請院長做指示如何避免光電侵蝕農地確保糧食生產請責成陳部長這點要確實的把握跟國人承諾可以嗎"},{"start":24906.292,"end":24910.316,"text":"農漁優先發電裝置越來越多,如何管理避免弊端?可不可以責成經濟部、國發會及其他單位共同研議?"},{"start":24922.355,"end":24923.496,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24944.299,"end":24971.432,"text":"除了回答這,你說還有10座,2013年還設置10座,為什麼科技巨擴多鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢?郭部長為什麼?因為它在建設會比較快啦,這時間會比較快。是,你看嘛,就是我這下一個,三個問題嘛,它量體小,施工迅速,然後呢成本低,所以呢我要用多少電我就自己放幾座就好了,不用去跟政府求,院長你知道原因了吧?"},{"start":24972.259,"end":24997.336,"text":"這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼形容SMR但是請問院長剛剛有問喔SMR有沒有核廢料還是有還是有嘛甚至剛剛有張委員說更多嘛所以說SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應科技巨擘使用了嗎部長你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎他們不一定是用SMR他過去的過去的這個核電"},{"start":25000.071,"end":25000.431,"text":"河電算是綠電嗎?"},{"start":25026.849,"end":25046.287,"text":"河電是綠電嗎?到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電,所以台灣沒有處方核電、核廢料的條件,台灣沒有不用綠電的條件,院長是不是同意?沒有放核電、核廢料的條件,台灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件。"},{"start":25048.75,"end":25073.02,"text":"這兩者都對兩者都對好謝謝那我們來看一下最近的部長有一番發言的大家聽到了用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電光電拿來臺灣我請教院長你有沒有聽過新加坡澳洲要建4300公里的海底電纜把澳洲的光電送到新加坡有沒有聽過有聽到這樣的一個那如果300公里都不可能你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是起效的"},{"start":25074.449,"end":25101.839,"text":"隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作應該是一個必然的趨勢是的澳洲他在北部的沙漠有12400平方公頃發的光電可以當台積電的4成使用可以6G但是為什麼新加坡要這麼多電新加坡有台積電嗎大發展AI嘛新加坡為了發展AI需要電他願意投資來4300公里拉這個電請問郭部長你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎"},{"start":25103.207,"end":25124.905,"text":"新加坡他們也是多元綠能這個只是他其中一個大概總的量是六七一但是新加坡他有另外一個想法他是從新加坡然後要整個東南亞他們要做一個區域網絡好那部長我打斷你綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠青綠安送給新加坡呢"},{"start":25125.461,"end":25148.302,"text":"那個成本可能更高因為澳洲沒有水啦沒有淡水往下看所以呢我們比起來看看歐洲的能源轉型配合原有油田專有平台他們要轉型為離岸風機成為能源島他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴轉化回也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴所以他們就普遍地設離岸風機也設了氫能島院長知道這樣的一個國際趨勢嗎院長知道北歐的這個趨勢啦齁"},{"start":25153.362,"end":25158.755,"text":"沒有很清楚但知道說各國的發展這個都是一個選項我請你去研究請部長去研究"},{"start":25160.165,"end":25188.647,"text":"河南的路德丹他現在就用了包括綠電包括義太岸的裝用碼頭把綠岸變成綠青到氫能儲槽他可以直接用來發電使用有給氫能車使用他也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地我覺得路德丹、河南想要成為歐洲綠能的一個輸入港你覺得台灣有可能成為亞洲除了資產管理中心之外也成為亞洲的一個綠能的管理中心嗎"},{"start":25189.127,"end":25210.672,"text":"我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收是對我們來講都還是一個比較但是路透單在做了對路透單在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長告訴我臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦"},{"start":25214.192,"end":25236.856,"text":"臺灣光電風電拿來直接用到就沒有可能再去變成綠青再去變成綠安使用部長在點頭啦那表示什麼臺電的綠臺灣的綠電不能自給自足要從國外輸入那請問國外輸入是不是有三種方法海底電纜還有呢管路運輸液態的綠安或者用船舶運輸部長是不是這樣完全正確那請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入綠能的條件"},{"start":25245.444,"end":25260.73,"text":"我們現在在看這個科技的發展科技的發展如果海底電纜來講的話大概跟那個距離有關係跟那個漏水有關係他現在目前來看海底電纜的成本跟用船運的成本大概差不多"},{"start":25261.731,"end":25277.626,"text":"好,電纜跟船員差不多,來,待會劉主委會講,來,等一下我再給劉主委發表一下,往下看來。但是呢,我們現在呢,要發展進口濾清來應對台灣的濾電不足啊,其實呢,我有注意到,要請國會發表注意,請院長責成國會注意,現在我們有後端的應用,"},{"start":25278.447,"end":25296.837,"text":"包括輕能車、包括家輕站、包括我們家庭各方面使用的濾清,除了用濾清去發電之外,可以使用濾清,對不對?這些後段的配套有一個根本的致命傷。如果前端沒有接受濾清或濾安的港部設施,我們能不能做?"},{"start":25296.837,"end":25297.498,"text":"劉主委你覺得呢?"},{"start":25298.888,"end":25315.13,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為清的安定性比較低所以這幾年的趨勢是把清轉化成安然後進來以後那台灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的安所以從儲存到運輸台灣都有一定的能力"},{"start":25315.41,"end":25315.43,"text":"臺灣用綠電"},{"start":25335.16,"end":25362.194,"text":"我也跟委員順便報告一下新加坡其實最近有一個方案已經簽約就是他跟印尼直接買綠電然後拉電纜到他那裡去所以這幾條路線都是可行的所以台灣需要綠電自給自足不夠我們要從外面用電纜管路還有船舶運輸對不對對好所以呢現在剛剛講到了剛剛主委講到各種濾清濾能的運用端台灣都在發展了"},{"start":25362.634,"end":25378.923,"text":"但是最重要是我們最重要最重要是什麼就是進口的設施我們往下看請問院長臺灣的港口是不是做好用船舶接收氫能的呢這個不是交通部管的這不是經濟部也不是國會發會可能有國會的部分請問你覺得臺灣做好準備沒有我們進口濾清"},{"start":25380.131,"end":25394.82,"text":"報告委員抱歉我們現在準備應該是在接收天然氣是的那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢所以我最後時間到了我兩個結論請看第一是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散的弊端的管理方法可以嗎第二個請盤點"},{"start":25406.218,"end":25416.626,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉斌委員的諮詢（也謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢（接下來請登記第14位葉元之委員諮詢"},{"start":25437.769,"end":25442.351,"text":"韓院長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢葉委員好卓院長好那個因為颱風又快來了嘛剛剛有看到您在那個氣象署後面有專訪接受訪問啊你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風架的這樣的一個機會所以以後氣象要多一爆好像要改到9點爆嘛"},{"start":25466.739,"end":25494.088,"text":"因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假但如果現在宣示說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到"},{"start":25495.889,"end":25523.143,"text":"9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那為什麼請氣象署做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假"},{"start":25523.743,"end":25523.763,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":25544.622,"end":25545.522,"text":"小但是比較正確的資料。"},{"start":25560.487,"end":25574.909,"text":"很難完全去針對因應現在這種快速變化的因為我個人是覺得多這一報沒有什麼太大的意義不然的話乾脆11點也多一報好了就每兩個小時一報因為越接近颱風要來的時間一定越準嘛"},{"start":25575.666,"end":25591.934,"text":"因為這個部長您參考了,院長參考了今天我們還是回到我們今天這個主題院長我要先請教一下因為貴黨的立委許志傑他攻擊我了他說我法紀憲很高啦所以看起來比他老啦我不知道你認同這個看法我先問韓院長你認同嗎"},{"start":25594.088,"end":25619.959,"text":"你認同說法際線比較高就看起來比較老嗎?院長你認同嗎?我原青春活力啊。不是啊,你認不認同法際線比較高就看起來比較老啦?我不認同用這樣子的標準。就不要容貌攻擊啦。像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神啦。他膝蓋又軟很會蹲啦。這樣子互相攻擊容貌不太有意義。但我今天為什麼講這件事情呢?是因為我們國人的法際線高不高會不會掉法?"},{"start":25620.359,"end":25643.671,"text":"其實政府也有責任為什麼呢因為根據很多研究報告顯示如果說我們空氣有汙染的話對於我們的毛囊是有損害的這不是這個大家院長可以看一下2019年在馬德里舉辦的第28屆的一個研究一個大會就研究報告說如果懸浮微粒是跟人類吊髮有關的"},{"start":25644.619,"end":25646.921,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":25673.103,"end":25692.398,"text":"我這時間比你長不是 這個你這個推論有點沒有題啦因為當然每一個人的適應環境的狀況不太一樣啦有的人就比較受到影響嘛有的人比較不會受到影響啦包委那個這個頭髮會掉齁謠傳是酸雨比較多比較厲害是我現在不是講酸雨我現在不是講酸雨我現在講的是國際的研究報告"},{"start":25693.719,"end":25716.071,"text":"我現在不是講酸語那我們來看一下其實空汙對於我們的健康影響也很大像我們現在的十大死因有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣汙染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管的疾病讓發生的機率增加那問題是我相信行政院環境部也都有看到這一點"},{"start":25717.412,"end":25723.881,"text":"所以在你們的報告裡面你們有刻意去強調說政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少可是"},{"start":25725.018,"end":25749.771,"text":"這個是報告講的說我們從2016年到2013年我們的空污排放已經減少了6乘5但是院長請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料這個資料也是台電給我台電我們剛剛要很久了在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我我本來是要來罵說為什麼不給但他給我了可能就是讓我沒機會消化但是我們很簡單來看一下你就看協和電廠"},{"start":25751.272,"end":25771.882,"text":"捷二電廠的部分,105年PM10是43.3,112年它的PM10是35.8,請問一下它有減少6乘5嗎?報告委員,這個其實不能只看電廠,是要看一個區域的面積,要用環境部的所有的標準的測站來打。區域面積,那所以你6乘5怎麼算出來的?"},{"start":25772.89,"end":25783.323,"text":"這個是他電廠自己量的所以我現在是根據電廠我現在光看鞋貨電廠所排放出來的PM10他105年是43.3到112年只降到35.8就沒有到6乘5阿"},{"start":25787.788,"end":25797.116,"text":"所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平好那等一下部長等一下那再來除了這6乘5的問題之外院長你有沒有發現啊111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5各個電廠都有上升的趨勢"},{"start":25804.582,"end":25831.545,"text":"例如說協和電廠110年度是PM10是30.4但到了112年是35.8成長了非常的快PM2.5的部分協和電廠110年度是10.8到112年它成長到13.2那你可以看各個電廠不管是PM10或PM2.5到112年實際上都有上升趨勢我現在不知道113年是怎樣所以我們空屋沒有你們講的控制的這麼好"},{"start":25832.981,"end":25860.953,"text":"報告委員,這個要看環境部的標準的空屋,一個縣市、一個縣市、空品區或是台中的整體來看。部長,我們剛剛講的,我剛剛給你秀出來的醫學報告,我們講的都是懸浮微粒嘛,都是PM。都是PM嘛,不管是PM10還是PM2.5嘛。PM2.5或PM10,它就是會造成身體的危害嘛。當然你環境部你可以找很多其他的指標啊,把這個懸浮微錄對環境的影響把它稀釋掉啊,但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛。"},{"start":25861.653,"end":25888.927,"text":"我要看我們環境部在各地標準的策戰這個是台電他自己的量的所以台電量的跟環境部不一樣那環境部是不是在粉飾太平阿沒有粉飾太平喔我們是標準的手動去量PM2.0你現在跟我炒這些東西也沒有什麼意義為什麼因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多他就是有對身體造成影響那我們接下來我們來看喔我們這個能源配比的部分根據"},{"start":25890.542,"end":25895.566,"text":"提供給我們的資料了,到了2030年,說最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%、燃氣50%、燃煤20%,沒錯吧?實際上在2030年的最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電。"},{"start":25907.645,"end":25934.201,"text":"火力發電要造成空污就比較容易啊。火力發電要這樣淨零就是比較困難啊。70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電?低碳這個到底有沒有低碳?因為現在你提供給我的資料我們都是打一個大問號啦就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題的一樣我拿到資料給你拿給我資料就是不一樣嘛那再來齁"},{"start":25936.58,"end":25953.958,"text":"雖然感覺上好像我看到你們給我們的報告因為最近因為核三廠停機算是修整嘛所以現在台灣實質上是非核家園啦沒有核電的時代對然後你講說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾%嘛在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾%"},{"start":25954.599,"end":25969.77,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":25969.87,"end":25988.84,"text":"十月多我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電到明年五月的時候風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電了第二就是明年的用電量一定大增那你在核電退廠的情況之下你的綠電能不能補上我打一個很大的問號所以這個報告裡面我覺得這也是一個過度推論"},{"start":25989.42,"end":25989.9,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":26005.465,"end":26009.926,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":26026.744,"end":26048.685,"text":"當然你要看他那個時候的發電量的量是多少的平均值高一點可是如果發電量在清晨半夜是比較少的那就不會產生委員所說的那樣但是實際上他的比例是高的然後還有一個我現在就來挑戰一下到2030年你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎現在告訴我們就是我剛剛講的"},{"start":26051.328,"end":26079.485,"text":"燃氣50%再生能源要30%燃煤要20%可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據這全部都是引用你報告的數據你們自己提到2016年我們那個再生能源裝置是4.73GW到了2023年年底等於是7年多我們的裝置容量到了17.96GW換句話說裝置容量大概成長了快4倍"},{"start":26080.425,"end":26107.61,"text":"可是發電量成長多少呢發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度發電量只增加了兩倍為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍發電量就兩倍呢因為我們大家都知道再生能源能夠發電時間很有限嘛很有限嘛晚上就沒有光電嘛或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱嘛我現在想要問院長是為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我那再生能源可以到30%"},{"start":26108.63,"end":26127.835,"text":"因為我幫你算過我幫你算過今天8年快接近8年你的發電量才成長了兩倍2030距今是大概是6年嘛因為今年也快過完了大概是5年多的時間5年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍"},{"start":26128.675,"end":26149.064,"text":"以上﹐你的再生能源才有可能達到30%那過去七、八年﹐民進黨政府已經上崇畢露下黃泉了去弄那麼多的光電廠臺南人﹐很多人都在罵以前謝鴻介開玩笑說黑面疲勞到了臺南要戴太陽眼鏡然後還造成那個溫室效應已經弄成這個樣子了漁電共生、農電共生那現在"},{"start":26153.883,"end":26173.323,"text":"發展一定會已經有瓶頸但是你又那麼有把握沒有我們完全過去八年不會造成瓶頸我們未來的五年多我們有辦法讓我們的再生能源可以成長到現在的兩倍重點答覆我信心是來自於哪裡我們拿風電來看我們已經從示範區到潛力區到現在已經到區塊發展了"},{"start":26174.904,"end":26199.591,"text":"所以這個的發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多而且比較穩定那其他能源也是我們小水利的發電所以是風力發電你認為發電量會成長幾倍事實上是如此啊成長幾倍因為我們要講數據嘛如果你要達到2030年要30%的話你的發電量起碼要現在再增能源的兩倍啊所以你所以報告委員這個沒有線性關係"},{"start":26201.698,"end":26223.539,"text":"那是什麼關係?沒有!我講發電量!那幾倍嘛?幾...我下去做的工程的量來決定幾年以後能夠產出...對!可是問題是我們現在...我們沒有去發電已經做了很多工程嗎?沒有線性!沒有線性!沒關係!那你跟我講哪一個工程是可以造成這樣的線性的發展?你跟我講哪一個工程?我就講沒有線性關係啊!"},{"start":26224.48,"end":26244.896,"text":"那一定要你要有工程發電量才有可能曲線的上升嘛你先直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成這個發電量曲線上升我給你時間講嘛你講嘛我們現在齁在過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量所做的風機的量是比較大的"},{"start":26246.076,"end":26260.684,"text":"部長你就是針對我的問題回答我現在就是問你因為我也不是說你一定答不到只是說你們訂的那個目標就我看來我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑你現在直接把路徑告訴我們風力的發電2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5個Gigawatt"},{"start":26264.906,"end":26274.793,"text":"到2028他會達到7.9到2030我們的目標是達到10.9這樣幾乎幾乎是有達到委員剛剛所說的但剛剛部長講光電勒光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW2028他應該會達到26.22030年的目標是31.2那你就沒有兩倍啊沒有兩倍我還有其他還有什麼我們一個人來算嘛剛剛院長講說風力有兩倍嘛光電就1.5倍"},{"start":26295.227,"end":26322.105,"text":"我們如果有常俗的發展地熱也是一個可期待的當然他現在還在試探地熱不確定嘛地熱不確定嘛但是我們有全力的發展我知道啦我們也都支持你們全力發展我現在想是說目標定出來總是要有路徑完成也不是喊價嘛就像過去蔡政府喊2025飛蛾家園現在就做不到就跳票了嘛本來說綠電要到20%根據你們資料我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔你們也才16%而已啊"},{"start":26322.825,"end":26352.031,"text":"所以要告訴我們說你要怎麼做我們也支持你啊可是你不能說喊了一個數字答不到我現在就問具體的路徑嘛我們會把這個路徑啊來表示清楚表示清楚那所以今天來做這個專報你沒有準備資料就來報告還要表示清楚不是我因為他沒有先進關係啊所以我們我們在講說因為今天的報告叫做能源配比啊那能源配比我們一定會問你說你怎麼做到這個能源配比嘛這是基本的問題嘛所以我們現在跟你報告我們怎麼做啊"},{"start":26352.895,"end":26364.886,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝葉元芝委員的質詢。謝謝左院長、各部會所長的備詢。接下來,請登記第15號謝龍介委員質詢。"},{"start":26381.331,"end":26393.765,"text":"時間暫停報告委員會現在異常二樓旁聽的是柯臻委員特別推薦來臺灣文教經貿交流協會所有好朋友歡迎熱情歡迎謝龍介委員請"},{"start":26411.768,"end":26416.49,"text":"報告院長,我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢市委員,謝謝當委員長,辛苦我這裡,亞委員在跟你這陣子說到我什麼幾年我在說黑麵皮露萊要掛五年的東西是在開玩笑"},{"start":26441.551,"end":26460.458,"text":"議長這很重要地球環境候鳥是一個相當重要的指標啊是的我不在開玩笑我知道委員是用心我們維護生態我告訴你2024年黑面披露全球的普查出來了"},{"start":26462.174,"end":26484.492,"text":"每年到了3月普查就會出來大概我們農曆年過了完整的普查包括香港、越南、菲律賓包括我們台灣這20多年來的保育做得非常好從200多隻到現在的6,988隻可是今年就是到了6,988隻總數啊"},{"start":26489.161,"end":26502.164,"text":"全球的總數今年呢就去年齁多了355隻355隻那是台灣的台灣我們台灣總共少了93隻啊台灣剩下4000台灣是4135隻我們比前一年少了93隻啊那台灣少了93隻你知道台南少多少嗎"},{"start":26519.226,"end":26536.92,"text":"我告訴你 台南市少了191隻為什麼會這樣 那多的到哪裡去 濁水溪口跟屏東 他們太陽能光電沒那麼嚴重 那這個數據你就要繼續觀察"},{"start":26541.394,"end":26561.606,"text":"新加一年,在明年後年,屏東,我過去補充說,屏東在太陽能現在漸漸在漸淡的時候,我跟你講,環境就會受到影響。你國民機構啊,這五民六部在學的,環境應用,它就應用了嘛。它的密實,產生了問題。"},{"start":26563.641,"end":26591.252,"text":"其實你有了問題候鳥不來這就是我們整個能源政策是否有偏差不管那不是你的酒割定的你要去救啊你要去做一個救援的人啊救援環境救援靈魂你對歐美納杯你就可以看到要怎麼去救啊那個哭泣已經漸到少十人了我們台南啊"},{"start":26593.254,"end":26617.562,"text":"我只要說 我在這齁 人家現在民間說 台南吃不夠 台灣吃不夠 我在這說光天啦 要去飛到邊疆來賭不然對我 你說你是世間啦 我認為那不是世間 那是真心話 我最幸福的是經濟經濟部"},{"start":26619.995,"end":26634.983,"text":"都會在菲律賓的招商,想到菲律賓招商最近會這麼多,要去菲律賓請電,這不是假的,沒錯這是真的,菲律賓請電要救回台灣,會困難,最好何況是什麼,何況在美軍及菲律賓,要設一條路段要用很多電,菲律賓是欠電欠價,"},{"start":26646.533,"end":26659.739,"text":"只要這個電,上不來的台灣沒關係啦,菲律賓贏啊。 到處的人都一樣賺啊。但是政府有補助而已啊。 切記,不然我現在正式把你提出警局啊。這個事情發生,不能叫人撩到啊。 有有撩,人沒撩啊。 如果這個事情再被人撩到啊。"},{"start":26672.077,"end":26698.558,"text":"這樣就說雖然這有卡在地緣政策的概念所以你沒帶沒紙你跟AIT說出來實在說米古娃變成部落格她不是部落格米古娃是怕錢的人米古娃是怕錢的人她絕對不是部落格所以她會很生氣叫你說得清楚嘛啊你是一個生理人出來當然你不像其他政策人不像泰國生啊"},{"start":26699.52,"end":26714.667,"text":"所以你這些人在說話我比較會聽你的,別人在說話我沒什麼要聽,我先輕鬆回答你,我對你有多大的期待,漸漸,所有變成期待越來越少,慢慢,轉變成失望,我叫你變成失望了,你懂,很正當的心情喔,"},{"start":26728.663,"end":26747.131,"text":"我看到所謂叫做賴清德的主帝兵,賴總統是檢主選的,對不對?是。派一個地方的主委、檢理委員等才把你大債吃?你現在是怎樣?你是王鴻薇的天爺弄人?"},{"start":26748.479,"end":26759.367,"text":"沒有啦,委員,如果針對地方的需要,跟地方的意見,在這裡公開來講,我想我們都要很謙卑,來討論。兩黨外情?這兩黨的政策本來就不是你定的啦!你是在這裡騎卡車嘛!好來,要怎麼騎,我們不知道嘛!"},{"start":26766.721,"end":26779.549,"text":"你也很勇敢面對我主席的報告,但是你的面對問題很多,沒錯嗎?我20月21日跟你們討的資料,如果你們經濟部的伯伯說,不怪你們提供意料資料來這裡伯伯說。你跟我說李孔、李肅尼,李孔、李肅尼,我們所有聯友"},{"start":26794.637,"end":26795.077,"text":"這一點比較少啦齁。（年期）。）。）。）。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。"},{"start":26825.612,"end":26830.857,"text":"對1524億度﹐可以變成2121億度﹐對1524億度﹐每年可以變成2121億度﹐"},{"start":26849.622,"end":26863.813,"text":"您用正式公文齁我實在說我不知道我拿來這裡給你質詢我給你浪費一點意義對台灣一點幫忙也沒有啊你所有提供的營業主流營業我可以特別來聽我營業主流是要怎麼說的面對台灣連環這個問題剛才的問題不用迴避了之前都知道大家都正式來面對嘛對不對不要那麼客觀嘛"},{"start":26874.787,"end":26896.273,"text":"我看你那個,當初給你打小聲,還給你拍手,這樣意思是甚麼?喔?替總統給你修理,這樣是很不尊重你的。沒有,我尊重委員啦。沒有啦,他這樣就很不尊重你啊。沒有啦,沒有啦。那意思是甚麼?求輸輪輸,沒關係。我們對甚麼?兩年前我在選黨員請教的時候,我就說這門會讓我點手,如果我當選,我絕對不會讓我做的。"},{"start":26901.226,"end":26902.026,"text":"今天台南的鄉親"},{"start":26928.854,"end":26944.118,"text":"他也都知道說這個問題喔!他已經希望說他就來,既然你這麼餓樂意,感覺他有在地方出的情緒!有就!他就正式宣示一下!這兩個會議發展商絕對不能跟進!好不好?委員報告,我會聽事先,開始需要檢討。在投票的時候,不用寬評跟電影政府的同意。"},{"start":26958.235,"end":26966.942,"text":"但是得標的時候,要去出這個,我覺得這個世界,檢測有什麼問題?因為要去面對地方的犯罪,民間的這個,他不公寓,他實在沒辦法處理這個問題。感謝,這樣都不聽了,他剛才說的,他剛才是這兩個,這兩張紙要給他灰塗就對了。"},{"start":26979.392,"end":26991.183,"text":"這要跟帝王再去參詳,我是金國靈魂...沒有人幫你參詳啊,你...你不對,你跟帝王要參詳?你如果要參詳就等兩天喔,我起來你如果不用參詳,我一定把他加上來。你現在的意思就是,我們如果跟我一樣的路線,對金融的匯率,我等一下...因為什麼?一直安定、鮮花...喔,我..."},{"start":27002.352,"end":27005.034,"text":"都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":27031.653,"end":27053.076,"text":"因為就算開記者會可以表演、表演到大聲聲（目前這個改變是已經得標（已經可以做（但是跟電話、這個交通（發生這個（交通上的困難和沒有達成（這個事情要去努力（現在沒那麼多努力（我們就留給其他的手法（所以發展秀就繼續做（目前的程序是這樣（它得標（"},{"start":27054.111,"end":27061.461,"text":"所以他們起來表演這裡說要把它停下來,是假的?這不是表演,這是煩人地方的聲音出來。沒有,你怎麼停?所以你是補充到擬充嘛。這兩天有要把它...我還真是不瞭解。"},{"start":27072.713,"end":27082.82,"text":"報告委員,我們是沒辦法,我們要修法。法令所規定的,我們要先討。我剛才問了,我跟你們拜託,我跟你們說,你說沒有,他這麼大聲,你還配合他?我們鄉親都認真說,他去公共會這兩天要給他解僱?"},{"start":27091.533,"end":27096.84,"text":"我們現在就要說這個問題為什麼會發生,要怎麼來解決這個問題。解決這個問題是第一次我們要做的。所以對於委員在計較的這部分,我們會詳細來討論一下。"},{"start":27107.506,"end":27115.657,"text":"我想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想"},{"start":27125.458,"end":27146.588,"text":"我對你說啊你電費用電資金都不足喔!當然你會說我電錢...啊這樣來!我台南市有差不多10個水口啦齁!啊你們很多縣市吃水沒水口來,你們那些縣市有要蓋水口嗎?敢不敢蓋水口?所以這就是...我們台南市一年之內三六十萬噸的水費有夠用市民錢!"},{"start":27148.035,"end":27155.802,"text":"你都嘴口說要吃水,不去嘴口,來,你不去嘴口,我們台南市說霸帝就要把機關給一公車,你看我嘴口在這裡,你電不回應嗎?沒有啦,委員,現在的事情是這樣,我們要看台灣是一體的"},{"start":27169.445,"end":27170.766,"text":"臺北市委員會委員會長臺北市委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27183.735,"end":27193.78,"text":"所以這兩天,現在已經有回到我的電視了喔!啊你還加這兩天?啊他們為了炒算起來說我,不可以洗了不可以洗了,啊你還要給我對,議員你講這樣很對!所以鄉親今天給我問說,明天啊,人家要停起來你還不知道?我反對兩三天我不知道說人家這兩個電視要被廢除了呢!"},{"start":27205.086,"end":27229.334,"text":"所以,行政委員會報告,現在請先跟台南的鄉親說一下,太虛度了嗎?我們現在是要走這個定數嘛。走什麼定數?走虛度的定數?這不是說這是我自己的企業,如果是我自己的企業,我怎麼會這樣?你走要走虛度的定數,你要跟黨主席說,沒有人一直吞了啊!是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,是啊,"},{"start":27232.233,"end":27236.656,"text":"現在就是我還要再來了解啦,要修法。 現在是有要停下來嗎?沒有這個過程?"},{"start":27241.328,"end":27242.789,"text":"臺灣有聲音反對,現在請你這個所在。臺灣有聲音反對,現在請你這個所在"},{"start":27271.272,"end":27271.772,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27295.592,"end":27309.537,"text":"這樣就表示現在有提到這條在興建的這回落發展上,你們不想停,所以就看我們台南市政府能不能停,如果我們停就我們的事,我們找盡辦法來停,你們的立場就是不想停,是不是這樣?我們的立場暫時不能停。"},{"start":27316.257,"end":27316.617,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":27349.136,"end":27350.177,"text":"謝謝謝榮介委員的質詢。謝謝主委院長、部長的備詢。"},{"start":27959.178,"end":27981.884,"text":"報告委員會 我們現在繼續開會 接下來請廖偉祥委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請我們卓院長跟我們的郭部長麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢"},{"start":27992.355,"end":28013.557,"text":"廖委員好院長部長辛苦了院長你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到你對於這個新的核能喔類似這個核融合的技術的態度非常的開放那我想要請問目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何何時可以相轉那台灣在未來三年內有沒有可能實現"},{"start":28015.357,"end":28042.065,"text":"第一點對新的核能技術採開放的態度我認為你我都一樣我想很多人也都是如此對所以我們的問題是說掌握程度如何我們現在倒沒有針對是像說的核融合這個單項我對它有特別的這個研究掌握因為未來的核能的新核能技術還有很多的可能性所以新核能科技可以說無法確定在短期內在台灣實現商轉我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的觀察的年"},{"start":28044.446,"end":28070.22,"text":"我知道所以我意思就是說不能確定嘛對不對你現在觀察因為你也沒有掌控嘛好院長但是我想喔新核能像你剛說的短期內如果能夠商轉我們當然都可以願意擁抱這種新的科技啊新的技術啊因為目前看起來其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是很好就是表現是OK的核廢料也少核安全也OK沒關係但是呢我想在現實層面的不確定性喔"},{"start":28070.62,"end":28070.66,"text":"主席"},{"start":28076.383,"end":28105.086,"text":"你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說臺灣內部對核能、安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論我想請問什麼樣子叫做高度共識比如說當年以核養綠公投當年同意票是589萬票通過這樣算不算高度共識然後呢在媒體民調有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮六成支持發展核能請問這樣算不算是高度共識報告委員當年公投那是一個非常"},{"start":28106.308,"end":28128.862,"text":"高政治性的這個決定所以我們在公投的之後我們也依照公投所呈現的內容把2025年非核家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持但是回到的是環境基本法所以我想要說的就是其實這個票數很多甚至高於我們總統當選的558萬票所以我們現在就是在所以這樣子如果說這樣子不算是高度共識的話這個是有啊"},{"start":28130.243,"end":28145.773,"text":"我們就沒有在2025年《非核家園》的堅持,是回到《環境基本法》23條,朝《非核家園》邁進這樣成。院長,其實前面問這個總之就是想要確定,除了新核能你才算是開放討論嘛,對不對?所以繼續發展現有核能這個公司基本上就是沒有這個選項,對不對?"},{"start":28148.865,"end":28169.996,"text":"繼續發展核能就是現有的就以現有的使用的這個公司我們現在主要的核三廠二號機在明年的五月他就要除役這是依照核管法的年限的規定沒關係沒關係院長或許你覺得國內的剛剛這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做國外的做法就是IEA國際能源總署的表格"},{"start":28171.537,"end":28185.645,"text":"可以從這個表看到2021年也是現在等於是2020年開始一直到2050年其實世界各國都有大幅增加核能開發的速度所以在我們核能的發展上面我們算是跟世界的這個國際算是背道而馳"},{"start":28186.653,"end":28213.36,"text":"那我想台灣顯然沒有這樣的條件那連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度從世界排名下滑到19那總算力也下滑所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI的話推估2028年用電成長8倍我想要請問院長就是請問你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有這個設廠的餘裕嗎那現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的這些AI大廠來台灣設廠嗎"},{"start":28215.298,"end":28227.771,"text":"報告委員這個部分的話我們現在是這個樣子就是我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源的電力我們都充分的有準備但是在這裡面我們要建設的這個電廠"},{"start":28230.874,"end":28260.214,"text":"希望委員也能夠支持部長謝謝因為時間有限其實我今天很認真在看你們的詢答其實你要表達就是這個用電充足無語今天早上院長也有別的委員問過院長就說這個用電無語是不是所以您覺得無語嗎可是我覺得其實是說的我們有計畫要發出的那您聽我說一下我覺得是說的是頭頭是道但是其實黃仁勳都有表達說穩定供電是台灣最大挑戰"},{"start":28260.674,"end":28284.36,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":28284.616,"end":28306.084,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":28306.164,"end":28306.184,"text":"。 三"},{"start":28323.971,"end":28349.876,"text":"報告委員因為這個齁只能推估啦然後我們會單獨的去跟所有要做這個data center的公司我們會去訪問他、拜訪他然後他的需求所以我們不是用隨便用算的也不是加減程序算出來的去年跟前年的預估就差了30%嘛所以這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠這就是大家擔心的地方好我繼續問下去喔"},{"start":28351.156,"end":28371.102,"text":"賴清德我們可以看一下117年以後每年都有大量的新增燃氣的電源併網每年從130萬到470萬不等我也好奇的想要問一下院長這些上面寫的因為他並沒有明確指明要設在哪裡所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡上面應該有"},{"start":28372.059,"end":28372.84,"text":"在2030年之前我們比較主要的幾個大電廠"},{"start":28392.255,"end":28408.887,"text":"大潭、通宵、興達、台中、大嶺跟協和這主要這六個位他六個電廠就會增加比較多的電出來坐落在哪裡都應該清楚的其實你上面寫的有很多我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定吧因為我要講一個就是包含啊"},{"start":28410.489,"end":28439.065,"text":"這不是大筆一揮就有,所以包含台南剛剛我們謝榮介委員也在問的所以這一次連台南的綠營的立委跟議長也都反對蓋的這個電廠所以我要講的事情就是其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定我想要講的是因為充滿了不確定所以還是只上談兵所以您剛剛的預估也會是說你預估這樣然後明年可能調整這就是一個很大的問題那另外我想要請教一下我們部長和我們院長一台台中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少"},{"start":28442.535,"end":28445.647,"text":"一台機組的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少?"},{"start":28446.816,"end":28471.39,"text":"五十五萬千瓦那10部燃煤就是550萬千瓦那這就是中火的燃煤機組10部總容量好550萬那事實上台電即將要增設的4部燃氣機組就已經達到550萬千瓦所以再加上上一期計劃增設的260萬千瓦大概達到810萬千瓦在台中中火的部分對平點頭你們很了解數字"},{"start":28472.35,"end":28497.507,"text":"所以換句話說其實4部燃氣機組就可以發電量就可以超過我們現在10部燃煤機組對吧那換句話說其實一部燃氣機組就超過兩部燃煤機組的發電量那所以我覺得我們之前有在講所以我們應該是要不只要增一氣減一煤事實上應該是要增一氣減兩煤才對"},{"start":28499.639,"end":28512.851,"text":"對不對以這個發電量來講是這樣所以部長我想請問一下還有我們院長臺南的這個酒味電廠還要蓋嗎酒味電廠還要不要蓋我想我們的需求是存在的"},{"start":28513.71,"end":28516.973,"text":"對,還不確定嗎?剛剛您說有,剛剛金融界也說,欸?"},{"start":28516.973,"end":28532.687,"text":"那九威,九威他們要不要繼續蓋下去?所以我想要問的就是說,為什麼台南供電自給率20%可以說蓋,不蓋就不蓋喔?那我們台中蓋了還不能拆?好,現在蓋了還不能拆,這是,是在覺得我們台中比較適寒嗎?"},{"start":28533.752,"end":28550.157,"text":"不是喔,九威那個是...九威那個不是正義...我要針對這件事情你正義氣我剛剛已經算過容量的數據我們台中的部分我們會蓋這個天然氣的發電機我就是問說我們是不是正義氣要減兩枚我們蓋氣拆沒"},{"start":28552.813,"end":28574.786,"text":"在蓋棄材美嗎?可以馬上拆嗎?可以保證嗎?可以保證我們嗎?蓋好之後你可以保證我們生一棄拆兩枚嗎?因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了嘛,可不可以保證?因為我在為台中鄉親,台中的這個中部人民的肺發生嗎?這是您的假設啦齁,但是我們會存留的部分它是不會運作但是是在備載"},{"start":28575.686,"end":28605.143,"text":"你確定不會運作你要確定你不會說到時候電不夠電不充足的時候你突然就把它加大火力加大這個燃煤的基礎這個有很多的狀況嘛所以你不敢保證對不對不然設備這個壞了啦部長所以我只想問你不敢保證對不對他不可能說新的設備這麼經常壞嘛但是我總是要有部長我覺得啦剛剛也算過了啦至少就是要爭一氣拆兩煤啦齁那為什麼不拆喔我想這個上午你們在質詢的時候你們也有說過對台中人的感激與歉意啦"},{"start":28605.603,"end":28628.443,"text":"那有什麼補償措施嗎?就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣那能不能至少承諾說113年燃煤量可以低於1200萬噸114年可以低於1000萬噸115年可以低於800萬噸118年達到無煤台中可以嗎?可以保證嗎?報告委員,台中這個火力發電廠曾經是最大的一個火力發電廠"},{"start":28629.94,"end":28646.453,"text":"他就是啊那這麼多年以來他對台灣的產業發展也是有貢獻我重要的是這句話這麼多年以來他存在的問題我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決也不能承諾嘛對不對我們會承諾是會加速他的以氣換煤"},{"start":28647.734,"end":28668.702,"text":"好院長總結來說政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比但是這個燃氣機組也越來越多但是呢如果增加的不夠我們台中中南部鄉親擔心的就是到時候你不夠的時候當然就是火力全開嘛排碳空污排好排滿嘛那當然你也說地熱可以期待可是也是不確定嘛所以"},{"start":28669.202,"end":28691.576,"text":"其實基本上就是這一切的不確定性非常多可是AI又需要乾淨的電力又要充足所以其實我也簡單附一個報告就是low carbon power的這個網站統計我們的低碳電力佔比17.5如果明年去除核電之後就會全球排名是110明年去除之後就會排到145也就是我們是全球的後段板在低碳電力的部分"},{"start":28692.585,"end":28718.446,"text":"所以我想這個部分真的是要加油我們真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策而且童子賢也說過產業在穩定的能源上面的需求就是必須要考量核能我是想不要再騙自己了真的要務實我們真的不希望持續你不拆不拆的情況之下未來電力不足你就是火力全開了台中人怎麼辦"},{"start":28719.906,"end":28720.966,"text":"臺電官網的資料平均購電成本111年2.33元112年3.59元到今年3.06元"},{"start":28746.258,"end":28773.428,"text":"那也可以看到這個核電平均是一塊多那再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半風力也是增加所以核能拿掉之後其實購電成本會增加所以我想要請問的就是說結構不變的情況之下好像也只有繼續漲電價那一樣我想問有別的路嗎可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎可以嗎我們對未來的這個狀況是有充分的這個掌握但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎"},{"start":28775.022,"end":28788.906,"text":"不漲電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是漲不漲電價我有跟你們報告是說"},{"start":28795.067,"end":28815.743,"text":"長不長電價是沈議委員的決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價不長沒關係數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球"},{"start":28817.394,"end":28836.831,"text":"這個就是會讓人家覺得說欸這個我們民進黨錯誤能源政策為什麼在堅持啊是因為這個是民進黨的發財秘籍嗎要發國難財就要先有國難嘛所以錯誤能源政策導致的國難就從這裡面去發財所以過去雲爆光電不能不承認超市雞蛋高端幣案還有現在台鹽的綠能不是都這樣嗎"},{"start":28838.332,"end":28859.904,"text":"這就是錯誤能源政策從根爛起報告委員,如果您的回答是他們是有問題的去告他啊,把他告他啊我來問,台岸綠能有沒有問題,有嘛,對不對,最近是不是新聞有上啊,對不對,好,所以我要問一下院長喔這個農業,還有農業部長喔,現在檢調在偵辦超思案喔,那也有用被告名義來約談我們的陳部長"},{"start":28862.472,"end":28870.166,"text":"那我想要請問一下草司案的關鍵人物這個秦雨喬的女兒吳于菲也就是秦雨喬的女兒她還在日本請問檢察官約談了嗎?通緝了嗎?"},{"start":28873.397,"end":28897.842,"text":"呃這個檢察官所以沒有嘛對不對所以沒有嘛對不對所以呢對於同樣的案子這柯文哲的前秘書徐子瑜同樣在日本就北檢就火速的將他通緝請問院長這樣雙標的檢調設的調查是不是說查到哪就辦到哪啊不約他回來就不用查了委員是覺得哪一件不對我說沒有沒有這個雙標的部分無與"},{"start":28904.385,"end":28929.839,"text":"謝謝廖偉強委員質詢（謝謝卓院長（各部會首長的備詢（接下來（我們請登記第18號徐宇珍委員質詢（跟證（接下來（登記第17號賴瑞榮委員質詢（以書面提出（請行政院書面答覆（並列入紀錄刊登公報（我們再接下來請18號徐宇珍委員請質詢（"},{"start":28932.11,"end":28932.471,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長"},{"start":28944.924,"end":28964.582,"text":"薛文豪院長好我想今天您的備詢大概很多委員都對於您前幾天接受Bloomberg的專訪提到您對新核能政策有採取非常開放的態度請問我可不可以解讀成說您對於調整非核家園的政策有這個規劃"},{"start":28966.363,"end":28994.925,"text":"非核家園目前在我們環境基本法23條但是我們是朝非核家園前進的那非核家園的定義如果在未來整個世界上的潮流跟認為研究認為所謂核能已經不是我們過去所謂的危險而且高核廢料的這個核能的話或許我們那個時候再調整是針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論在目前為止我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務"},{"start":28995.88,"end":29014.177,"text":"那剛剛院長講到遵照環境基本法嘛就是這個這個依法來行政嘛但是事實上我們現在這個最近的這個禁法補償條例啊我們也經這個立法院也通過之後也是一個法律案可是行政院也沒有遵守啊因為它沒有依照預算法93條"},{"start":29015.498,"end":29026.927,"text":"在增加稅數的時候要來跟行政院爭詢而且要指出資金的來源政府沒有履行這樣的程序我就是一致的標準我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後可以來進行我們也很高興聽到您對於針對核能的政策有這樣子的一個非常開放的態度"},{"start":29037.09,"end":29057.961,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":29057.961,"end":29058.081,"text":"主席"},{"start":29080.811,"end":29105.999,"text":"委員會召開能源轉型國事會議,邀請草野各黨一起共同來討論,然後凝聚共識。 院長您覺得呢?我們可以非常積極的、廣泛的跟各界來做溝通。那未來的能源技術當然不知道,未來的新的核能技術不知道。就誠如現在我們看河山廠的問題一樣,我們現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展,那也是五年以後的事情。"},{"start":29106.687,"end":29110.43,"text":"蔡政府是2025的能源配比大概是燃氣50%燃煤30%綠能20%現在賴政府在2030調整為綠能30%降低燃煤到20%"},{"start":29137.107,"end":29139.389,"text":"三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能"},{"start":29166.533,"end":29172.332,"text":"那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣的一個計畫?"},{"start":29173.387,"end":29197.688,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":29198.128,"end":29223.714,"text":"這幾天院長有這樣子一個持非常開放的態度所以國發會這邊是不是有可以把這個我們2050的淨零轉型的這個計畫能夠做一個調整跟委員報告我們現在還是以多元綠能作為我們祖州的發展方向最重要的原因是R100的廠商需要的是再生能源所以我們必須盡快補足再生能源給半導體各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等等這種產業使用"},{"start":29225.014,"end":29225.054,"text":"主席"},{"start":29243.69,"end":29260.974,"text":"像瑞士他已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律那將核電廠可以無限制的營運許可權那日本的前手下岸田文雄在2021年也有提在第6次的能源基本計劃也有提到希望在2030年日本核能發電佔比都可以達到20%到22%"},{"start":29263.275,"end":29263.295,"text":"兩位"},{"start":29290.506,"end":29319.217,"text":"重點跟委員報告第一個若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電現在很多國家都是現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源如果有一天核電的發展他已經沒有安全顧慮也沒有核廢料的處理了全世界都通認他就是綠電有哪一個政策是全世界都公認全世界都通過的現在對再生能源綠電大家有一定的標準"},{"start":29319.377,"end":29319.437,"text":"臺灣不缺"},{"start":29338.66,"end":29339.08,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":29361.716,"end":29373.419,"text":"還有國內的法律現在如此所以這國內的法律要修正的話當然我們一定可以來配合來修正那也就覺得立法院行政院如果有這樣子的一個想法其實也可以提出修法行政院就是依法行政"},{"start":29374.585,"end":29394.892,"text":"依照程序通過的法律,行政院一定遵守。好,針對,我想我們一定這個很樂意的看到行政院遵守這樣的一個法令喔。那當然,院長我想剛剛有提到的就是這個核能,我們的這個綠電的問題喔。那我們先來看一下,我們整理了出來這個表格喔。就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度。"},{"start":29397.193,"end":29412.305,"text":"那我們可以看到這是過去在100到103年的400億度大概需要的費用大概差不多300億左右那你可以看一下我們現在以112年來看我們再生能源的這個每度的購電費用是5.5元"},{"start":29416.008,"end":29434.445,"text":"以我們112年度的核能來說每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元也就是再生能源每度購電的費用大概是核能發電的5倍所以如果要彌補核能400億度的缺口的話我們來看以成本來計算的話"},{"start":29435.106,"end":29450.975,"text":"合能400億度電大概是成本是440億元再生能源400億度電在成本大概高達要2200億元那天然氣如果要400億度電的話成本大概是1676億元也就是說非核家園之後"},{"start":29451.775,"end":29451.915,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":29470.985,"end":29497.255,"text":"兩百二十六億了所以因為這樣子的關係所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了三十幾趴我們的產業用電也漲了六十幾趴而且現在113年還要追加預算一千億給台電明年還要撲普一千億給台電所以如果民進黨這個的能源政策已經浪費了民眾這麼多的錢然後明年還要我們追加兩千億的話其實這部分我們真的無法支持那請院長再繼續看一下下一個"},{"start":29498.015,"end":29525.366,"text":"我們對於這個經濟部對我們全國用電的預測就是119年我國的用電的度數會比113年增加515億度你可以看到我們119年就是所謂的2030大概會達到3343億度那請問一下目前推動的再生能源的規劃是不是可以彌補河一、河二、河三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年的電力增長的需求"},{"start":29527.438,"end":29549.363,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們跟這個經濟部跟台電有開過會很確定這個整個電力他們目前的整體的規劃是有考慮到核電的停機所以不會有太大問題那我也趁機跟委員報告一下核電廠為什麼電價這麼便宜是因為他的建廠的折舊攤提一十五年攤提已經攤提完成"},{"start":29550.043,"end":29550.783,"text":"三、行政院院長提出"},{"start":29579.273,"end":29594.988,"text":"當然剛剛您提到說目前大概要供電這個穩定的供電供電原則上沒問題嗎好如果我們假設這是真實的我們可以看一下經濟部預估我們2030年臺灣的這個需要的用電就是剛講的119年大概需要3343億度電如果以2030年來說我們當時的規劃的配比是30%的綠電"},{"start":29605.177,"end":29605.297,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":29633.887,"end":29659.085,"text":"委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電我提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表一有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討"},{"start":29659.565,"end":29684.882,"text":"發電的發電成本也是逐年在下降所以這個計算還要再精細我們只能說到2030年以前即使好讓你下降一半也要多花個兩三千億這是跟核電比較起來所以我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多的納稅的血汗錢事實上就是因為這樣子的一個能源政策我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥報告我們心裡都清楚核廢料的處理核後端的處理是金額相當大的"},{"start":29685.162,"end":29685.262,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":29705.058,"end":29728.76,"text":"最後我想請教一下就是院長就是因為事實上賴清德總統曾經說臺灣希望推動為人工智慧指導嘛但是我們都知道這個AI是要非常的耗電所以臺電的前臺積電的前董事長劉德英也表示臺積電在2024年的用電量目前大概是在8%左右未來到2030年可能會達到12%所以請問一下這個"},{"start":29730.026,"end":29746.152,"text":"臺電"},{"start":29746.502,"end":29763.938,"text":"就未來的人工智慧跟半導體所需要的快速的用電增加的用電再重新的核算那麼幾次核算下來臺電的數字幾乎也都是一樣認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬度但是我們可以彌補的有900萬院長請問臺電有告訴您說這樣要多花多少錢嗎"},{"start":29771.301,"end":29786.66,"text":"這個就是將早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的一個路徑必須做財務的分析那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析順便要把台電的財務本體質要把它健全起來"},{"start":29787.361,"end":29812.27,"text":"院長因為現在我們在臺灣我們在國際競爭市場面對日本韓國他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠或重啟核電廠或是延益核電廠所以針對這個部分也是希望院長您要莫忘世上苦人多我們現在的民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策讓我們很多已經造成高電價高碳排人民的健康"},{"start":29813.07,"end":29813.35,"text":"。（10月29日（"},{"start":29835.276,"end":29835.636,"text":"臺灣有足夠供應他們的電﹖"},{"start":29868.515,"end":29877.401,"text":"謝謝我們韓院長。有請我們行政院卓榮泰院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我們股發會主委、經濟部郭部長。郭部長請備詢。張委員好。委員長好。我剛剛特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員這樣整個一輪這樣質詢下來,"},{"start":29896.477,"end":29924.64,"text":"有一個感觸就是說這麼多的國民黨委員的一個質詢裡面在今天整個我們能源的一個占比該怎麼樣來做一個分配國民黨委員確實他的想法是認為說核能我們現在這個政府如果是一個負責任的你就必須要去把它做重啟他會舉瑞士舉了好多的一個國家我跟你講當然他的理由我相信他也不是惡意他就會認為說"},{"start":29926.892,"end":29951.692,"text":"沒有核能的話你那個電價你會飆高國家我們台電會去買更多的電進來然後呢政府要去做一個補貼國民黨的委員幾乎是這個意思那所以呢他到最後跟你說院長你雖然是講到說整個核管法裡面的一個規定啊你必須要依法來行政啊國民黨委員甚至跟你拍胸脯跟你講那我配合跟你做一個修法我一直這樣想"},{"start":29954.711,"end":29963.082,"text":"就說從2016年蔡英文總統民進黨重新在執政以後啊民進黨政府啟動了一個能源的一個轉型確立了非核家園的一個政策的一個方向"},{"start":29964.725,"end":29994.005,"text":"當初啊你去看這樣的一個配比裡面啊2016年核能是12%藍莓45%天然氣32%再生能源4.8到了2024所以現在520蔡總統卸任我們賴總統上來就我們卓內閣開始的時候啊你看到核能是到5.4藍莓40天然氣41再生能源10%那以今天來看的話你整個核三廠一號機已經停機二號機現在又在稅休"},{"start":29994.806,"end":29998.135,"text":"以今天的來看的話﹐台灣的核電廠核能是0%﹐"},{"start":29999.807,"end":30026.815,"text":"郭部長我這樣講對嗎是所以說我就有一個想法就是說從這兩個時間走你去看你會發現再生能源跟替代能源他確實成長了不少但以現在台灣來看的話我們確實也面臨一些問題我今天我看到這個台達電的創辦人原來就是跟部長一樣都是企業界的他說台灣費用核電不可他甚至認為說錯誤的政策必須要去做一個改變"},{"start":30027.776,"end":30036.113,"text":"那卓院長的回覆啊也很妙那你的回覆就是說你不能去你那一句話是說不能去突破"},{"start":30037.534,"end":30039.416,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":30064.497,"end":30092.046,"text":"政府這兩大命題是責無旁貸所以我要就較三個問題院長我們現在來看的話我們現在是非核家園的一個推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的一個重視跟展現台灣對國際綠色能源趨勢的一個接軌的一個決心可是我們也看到你說台灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口"},{"start":30093.496,"end":30122.243,"text":"前陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演現在改變方式了他用封鎖的這樣一個方式那我們民眾可能就會去想到說你一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話那我們能源確實會面臨很大的一個風險那臺灣又處在一個整個國際上政治風險比較高的一個地區那如何去維持穩定跟安全能源的一個供應我來看這個"},{"start":30123.581,"end":30149.502,"text":"政府真的是確實該去未雨綢繆為什麼呢你第一個你去想到的就是說面對這樣的一個軍演的時候我想就叫郭部長就說那我們的能源的進口的部分我們儲存量到底是幾噸報告委員我們明目上面就是你在上面所寫的這個天然氣是8天8天煤炭就是42天但是我們不能夠講太詳細了這個應該是國安問題"},{"start":30153.18,"end":30179.41,"text":"但是我 部長我要提醒 院長我要提醒就是說我們隔壁的日本他幾天 他三十六天三十六天俄烏戰爭的時候歐盟去跟他的會員國講說對於能源的儲備他是30到60天那我今天講的就是說我們台灣我們本身如何進一步去提升這個儲備能源的一個天數這個部分"},{"start":30180.285,"end":30192.349,"text":"我看到去跟別人做比較,還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人做比較,我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方。日本當然也緊張,他要36天,歐盟要30至90天,你說我們8天,我們確實也要未雨綢繆,去因應這種突發的狀況。我不曉得院長你的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":30207.213,"end":30234.84,"text":"未來我們會持續的增加我們的安全儲量那這個的數字當然我們現在是在一個研議的過程當他一定會增加安全儲量用什麼途徑就是增加他的接氣站增加他的接氣槽甚至用增加航次船次班次這個狀況來增加我們的量這個都是未來的計劃當中這個應該到政府都責無旁貸了另外就是說剛國民黨委員提到核電確實是個兩難"},{"start":30236.98,"end":30263.833,"text":"以今天來看的話以今天台灣的用電量全國都沒有核電我屏東的核三廠的二號機現在是稅休的那可是呢我們碰到一個問題啊你說先前回答說要在台灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心啊我看很多管理組就開始都打電話了你郭部長啊就說我這裡也賣我分林也賣中華也賣台灣也要賣那好康的台灣也都要賣但是這也凸顯一個問題啊那"},{"start":30266.462,"end":30279.837,"text":"多設在臺灣以後成如郭部長你講的2030年之前你可能還有10座資料中心會在臺在臺灣來做一個設置那主任長你現在會內閣團隊你是說叫做AI內閣"},{"start":30282.739,"end":30301.432,"text":"你這個AI數據中心科技一直在發展帶動整個台灣經濟發展國人都樂於見到但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友會擔心的你供電如何去做一個穩定這個不對2030年你真的還有信心嗎"},{"start":30302.965,"end":30320.691,"text":"報告委員,因為AI的Data Center,我想每一個世界的大廠都想要接近台灣,因為台灣在AI晶片跟AI伺服器是世界第一名,所以所有的Data Center都希望來臺灣,在臺灣的電池,臺灣的電池,兄弟,不說客櫃,"},{"start":30327.828,"end":30348.418,"text":"等於在電的量有夠嗎?然後是綠電現在這個AI Center基本上都希望是綠電所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應所以包括在目前的為止我們現在提升所以剛剛有說數字我們行政院的數字就是說我們希望從現在這個綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%"},{"start":30353.32,"end":30353.8,"text":"我比較擔心的是"},{"start":30375.273,"end":30391.393,"text":"卓院長,你的談話我也看到了,你說到2030年之前,這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的一個發展,2030年之前,供電無虞啦,這可以讓人看嗎?但本席看法,我覺得這氣魄不過。"},{"start":30394.46,"end":30419.06,"text":"今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔"},{"start":30420.201,"end":30437.11,"text":"還是會再增加所以我一直在想想說今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的一個主張他的主張就是你沒辦法"},{"start":30438.63,"end":30459.806,"text":"經濟若一直發展下去後,你搞什麼就是重啟核電。這是國民黨的主張。國民黨的主張就是你那個核管法、你現行法律、卓榮泰院長你不用擔心,我國民黨可以幫你解套。這個是一個站在整個經濟的發展,這樣的一個態度我是可以接受的喔。但問題是說他沒有考慮到一點。"},{"start":30462.082,"end":30490.635,"text":"因為你說的單數就比較多啦就是說我核廢料有辦法處理啦火能安全我有辦法有辦法全部都來確保啦就當然啦這個在每一個國民在我們這個島上這個國家安身立命如果說為了一個經濟的一個發展電力的一個穩定供電然後到最後核廢料沒辦法處理核安沒有辦法去做保證民眾嚇都給嚇死了所以你才會去講說有新的科技如果到最後可以確保來做這些處理"},{"start":30491.875,"end":30521.113,"text":"我們政府是可以比較開放的一個態度但是我又擔心了我面對這個問題喔我是屬於民進黨的基本教育派喔可是我面對這個問題我也是很大的一個衝擊啊阿如果經濟你說一年三兆的總預算規模是三兆阿左內閣拼國部長拿去招商每年變四兆後年變五兆、六兆搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去的時候"},{"start":30522.385,"end":30534.318,"text":"那確實是到最後,若不夠電的時候,講錯了,不夠電的時候,院長你變什麼?委員報告,其實早上的報告裡面,我們是推算到2033年"},{"start":30536.072,"end":30557.548,"text":"我們有增加的17.86GW是沒有缺陷我認為連不要說三三年我也覺得沒有氣魄阿我們現在是保守的2024執政完2028捏你若有辦法跟電容總部報告競爭是很快的捏那叫做連連到2032捏那時候你就開聲嚇唬說我走動態我也要選總統我只有韓國瑜可以選而已 可不是這樣說所以你到2033我也覺得氣魄不夠"},{"start":30565.325,"end":30565.345,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":30585.748,"end":30586.709,"text":"我們可以算到2040年"},{"start":30598.936,"end":30601.277,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":30621.465,"end":30647.891,"text":"科技技術就是最新的這個發電的技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定了所以這個我們現在不敢亂講我們還是要看科學數據的發展所以我們現在只算到2033年但是我相信2030年的時候這個世界會有一個非常大的改變其實我是擔心啦你像我們要提升利潤國會主委你如果你在說"},{"start":30650.942,"end":30667.49,"text":"全世界R1-100全世界超過400間企業,台灣也有19間不管是從蘋果、Google或台積,綠電的需求會越來越高可是你如果從太陽能用光電來看的話,台灣這麼多的面積比較小"},{"start":30668.931,"end":30670.612,"text":"三、行政院院長提出"},{"start":30697.421,"end":30718.499,"text":"提到的那些整個能源我們怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題你說幾個階幾階幾階到最後也影響到環境的衝擊甚至會有政治上的一個抗爭的一個問題所以這個是一個大災問真的是一個大災問這個是全國各個政黨"},{"start":30719.753,"end":30749.351,"text":"都要去面對國民黨的講法是跟你講說你政府我就跟你講說你重啓核電他覺得好像重啓核電是這樣砌下去之後叫做重啓他不知道一個發電廠要處理之後要重啓保證幾年?25年嗎?最快要幾年?要重啓的話差不多要3點5到5年3點5到5年真的還可以營業?真的要這麼快嗎?你們給我的數據倒不是這樣你認為一座核電廠重啓真的3到5年就可以?"},{"start":30750.08,"end":30750.34,"text":"應該是這樣報告委員"},{"start":30778.243,"end":30791.795,"text":"我的建議是這樣子就是說現在的區域經濟學是開始在被討論的所以在民主聯盟的國家裡面可以互相支援特別是能源的部分所以可以看得到現在有..."},{"start":30808.091,"end":30835.789,"text":"不過這個是一個大問題我期待我剛提到的會議會議員是整個的問題我是覺得不管是國民黨也好不管是民進黨也好提出這樣的一個問題的人其實都是擔心臺灣整個經濟未來的發展他們這個講這個能源配比跟你講能源錯誤政策的錯誤他是在告訴你他在趕緊額落啦說你很老啦你未來很好的發展經濟啦那經濟會很好啦民進黨會繼續進展啦所以會欠電啦"},{"start":30838.28,"end":30845.443,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":30869.978,"end":30877.622,"text":"謝謝韓院長是不是來請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢議員好院長你好"},{"start":30890.558,"end":30911.641,"text":"我想因為未來可能5到10年AI產業將迅速的發展那AI產業這個整個科技創新製程要需要龐大的用電那產業界包括美國商會他們其實都十分的擔憂超過七成美國商會的成員"},{"start":30912.942,"end":30926.396,"text":"對於這個綠色能源的供應他們講實在話都有擔憂了那各界懷疑在現在能源政策下是否能夠因應整個未來的發展院長你的看法謝謝委員"},{"start":30928.069,"end":30956.294,"text":"我當然跟各位一樣我們都會關注社會上各方對我們現在能源政策所提出來的建議質疑或是任何新的方法但是我們會在當中找一個目前我們正在推動的我們認為是可以執行的方式我們極力的推這個過程當中遇到任何的困難希望大家共同來解決目前我們是在朝發展多元綠能跟深度節能跟先進的儲能以及強韌電網這方面走"},{"start":30957.594,"end":30979.901,"text":"那個院長為了因應2050年淨零排碳的目標世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的人員包括核電在內那國際這個原子能總署強調這個世界需要這個核電來減少整個碳的一個排放"},{"start":30981.622,"end":30992.776,"text":"此外美國和20幾個國家也共同發表核能宣言共同努力於2050年全球核能容量"},{"start":30994.281,"end":30994.962,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":31024.073,"end":31025.264,"text":"院長,您怎麼看?"},{"start":31027.455,"end":31055.873,"text":"報告委員我們當然不會沒有看到國際的情勢但現在對台灣來講兩條路線傳統的核電我們現在在核管法的法律規定底下明年核三廠二號機必須要除役這是我們法律的規定我們現在是依法而行未來的新核能技術現在我們沒有辦法去預測到它發展的速度跟方向但是我們採取絕對開放的態度也願意學習也願意討論"},{"start":31056.977,"end":31086.13,"text":"那個院長您日前接受外媒的訪問提及台灣對採用新核能科技的態度規常的開放是的那本席就此來請教對於新核能的科技目前大部分討論是小型模組的這個模組化的這個反應爐SMR那政府花了多少預算與努力來因應來做準備呢"},{"start":31087.103,"end":31111.38,"text":"我們現在是沒有直接在這個小SMR這個工程上面核電廠上面來做比較多的研究但是我們跟世界的先進的技術都是有連結跟討論的那不只這些我們還有更未來的核融合等等我們還有現在2030年也許還有一個更革命性的產品會出現這個我們都持續的保持啦院長"},{"start":31112.481,"end":31134.743,"text":"本席我又請我助理來查詢政府研究報告找到一篇關於這個小型模組化反應爐的研究預算是60萬元那請問卓院長2025年政府對於小型模組化反應爐會投入多少的預算來研究呢"},{"start":31135.484,"end":31145.741,"text":"據我所知他所謂小型也不是真的很小型放在桌上的也不是他是好像也是一個好像大巨蛋那麼大類似啦而且他也會產生核廢料"},{"start":31147.199,"end":31168.195,"text":"也是會核廢料,所以說你們目前沒有考慮是不是?不是,我們還是在研究它的帶來會不會有新的一些發展的方向,郭部長應該更清楚。跟委員報告,SMR是這樣,SMR就是我們現在比較小隻,所以比較容易設置,但是它還是會產生核廢料。"},{"start":31168.875,"end":31175.503,"text":"三個前提是最重要的第一個就是安全第二個核廢料可以處理那第三個當然全民共識這個大家大概都差不多"},{"start":31187.677,"end":31188.257,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":31207.346,"end":31207.366,"text":"。 三"},{"start":31233.627,"end":31260.64,"text":"民進黨政府執政後推動恢復佳餘也讓核電人才培育浮現危機現階段核電與未來20年、30年的技術不同本席認為政府有必要持續投入核電研究因為新世代思維改變未來可能就需要用核電國內如果不繼續發展核電"},{"start":31263.542,"end":31285.574,"text":"何能的人才恐怕會大量的斷層你有什麼看法?這個很佩服也支持委員這樣的建議跟看法那我們日前也做過這樣的表示現在河山廠的這些有經驗的這些工程人員他們不僅要處理河後端的很多處理他們也要去接續研究"},{"start":31286.254,"end":31286.294,"text":"主席"},{"start":31307.485,"end":31327.118,"text":"讓民眾透過能源模擬器來瞭解減碳與電價之間的關聯。那過了10年時空環境有所更迭那臺灣歷經新冠疫情、烏鴉戰爭的影響導致購電的成本大幅的增加那電價三年漲了4次"},{"start":31328.679,"end":31338.712,"text":"本席我是希望說經濟部重啟臺灣2050人員供需情境的模擬器把這些資訊攤在陽光下讓大家來選擇如何務實達到2050淨民排碳"},{"start":31349.178,"end":31361.672,"text":"報告委員那個模擬器10年前我也用過但是10年前沒有把這個價格因素放進去那未來我們也看過MIT有類似這樣的工具那我們會來參佐但是價格還是最重要最麻煩的一個點"},{"start":31362.335,"end":31378.91,"text":"我認為應該繼續發表,讓外界了解,讓外界清楚知道發電的成本差異,各種發電的碳排放量,提供可能需面臨的風險,"},{"start":31380.191,"end":31403.416,"text":"以代價、理性思考各種人員選擇下的利弊得失以這樣的工序作為共同討論的基礎來嘗試去尋找適合的人員發展路徑我請問卓院長何時能夠重啟台灣2050年人員供需情境的模擬器"},{"start":31406.526,"end":31420.424,"text":"報告委員那個我們國家氣候變遷對策委員會有一個決議我們行政院也在研議當中我們會有一個平台那跟那個委員提到的非常的像那我們會來研議可能要到我目前預計是要大概三個月的時間因為"},{"start":31421.305,"end":31421.525,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":31442.591,"end":31466.867,"text":"經濟部對外表示說深度節能推動計畫目標累計4年113到116可能可節省206億度206億度的電那今年8月行政院這個第3915次院會深度節能的推動計畫提到大用戶節電1%的目標部長是不是是"},{"start":31470.089,"end":31484.148,"text":"那,過了兩個月經濟部預告修法,要求契約用電容量超過一萬千瓦的用電大戶,年節電力要提高到1.5%,有沒有這檔事?"},{"start":31484.148,"end":31484.288,"text":"是的"},{"start":31486.511,"end":31504.679,"text":"是齁那請問卓院長深度節能的計畫針對用電大戶要求節能的目標已經有所不同是否代表深度節能目標206億度應該再往上調整因為你既然本來1%現在調到1.5%"},{"start":31508.2,"end":31508.36,"text":"主席"},{"start":31529.122,"end":31551.737,"text":"通過深度減能,我們希望4年以後能夠增加出來大概3.5GW,這是努力的目標。所以我們會請大的公司提升自主減碳的比例,但是對電的部分節能減碳這個是我們最重要的一個目標。"},{"start":31552.077,"end":31578.414,"text":"那你們有沒有針對儲能這部分有去做各方面的研究因為很多電你沒有使用然後你沒有儲能它就消失掉了那這不是浪費嗎那你今天要是有儲能的設施對不對節能減碳我們的EXCO計畫裡面就是有儲能對啊但是目前來講經濟部到底有沒有在推"},{"start":31579.025,"end":31603.753,"text":"有,我們現在就是開始先把那個模型建立起來,就是譬如說學校要怎麼做?公司要怎麼做?其實我有去參觀過人家的廠,而且國內有在生產,結果它是什麼?它是只要家戶也可以用,你大樓裡面甚至於它就可以替代發電機,因為講實在話,晚上你離風時間,它就把它儲能,"},{"start":31608.854,"end":31630.947,"text":"他白天就可以用因為白天是尖峰時間晚上是離峰時間其實這些本來你們就應該要積極的推我們現在都在推這個這個所謂智慧化的管理那我們是從照明從空調跟動力這三個方向去整合"},{"start":31631.987,"end":31654.488,"text":"所以這個然後那個電的部分因為晚上這個離風的時候對啊電價比較便宜除能啊對啊然後這個白天這個電4點以後白天可以用那個除能器使用在白天晚上除能白天用電其實他也不會浪費掉是照理講經濟部跟這個行政院這邊應該要去"},{"start":31656.63,"end":31675.948,"text":"有這部分跟委員報告這部分我們都在進行我們現在甚至於連廠商我們都要管理哪一些廠商是我們建議的他確實是透過我們標準局同意的東西我想這個我們一步步在建議因為我們的廠商甚至於在國外都有建廠我相信你們應該要多去了解"},{"start":31676.889,"end":31689.503,"text":"是對不對你去了解那確實能夠達到那個就是不要讓他浪費掉那你能夠除人然後又能夠使用而且來來調控這個才是正道"},{"start":31690.297,"end":31707.601,"text":"這部分我們都在進行中好不好 郭部長最後用一點心因為深度節能的目標提到要設置儲能設備移轉尖峰用電但最近儲能廠新建屢屢受到周邊的民眾的反對擔心儲能電廠電池過熱的故障引發火勢"},{"start":31712.282,"end":31723.147,"text":"委員長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三委員長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三委員長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":31740.296,"end":31758.492,"text":"不管它是國內製造的也好,或者是進口的這些除能設備也好,我們都會深入的去了解,到底這些磁芯,這些到底是哪邊製造的。﹖對啦,那個﹖我們不可以讓它繼續發生這個﹖對啦,那個卓院長、郭部長,"},{"start":31759.153,"end":31759.173,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":31780.215,"end":31793.042,"text":"電沒有用結果就這樣浪費掉了輸掉就浪費掉了所以在二次能源轉型過程當中深度節能跟先進儲能都是其中四項當中兩項非常重要的項目我們會全力的推動"},{"start":31802.796,"end":31827.774,"text":"報告委員會本日排定諮詢的委員均與諮詢完畢。非常謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。做以下之決定。一、將各委員會發言記錄及書面諮詢函送行政院。請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆。二、以提出之書面諮詢尚未登載公報者依律補刊。"},{"start":31829.677,"end":31856.696,"text":"報院會現在我們繼續處理復議案共兩案以先後順序處理請議事人員宣讀第一案本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第2會期第5次院會邱志偉等16人擬具反滲透法第8條條文修正草案提出復議宣讀完畢現做以下決定另定其處理請宣讀第二案本院民進黨黨團針對"},{"start":31858.82,"end":31876.872,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期第5次會議（事日程報告事項（22案（院會所作決定提出複議請公決案。 宣讀完畢現做以下之決定令定期處理報院會本次會議進行到此為止現在上會"}]}},{"id":"156235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34f48bb999e4556fd06e9140c2b1893b4a9b20467c9a890c27befde21dfa2b36bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"17:04:55 - 17:20:12","影片長度":"00:15:17","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T17:04:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T17:20:12+08:00","duration":917,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.62846875,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.539718750000002,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.606593750000002,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.36846875,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.97596875,"end":28.667843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.730968750000002,"end":36.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.970343750000005,"end":39.720968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.97409375,"end":43.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.298468750000005,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.86346875,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.86721875,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.820343750000006,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.84096875,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.57784375,"end":65.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.80971875,"end":66.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.19346875000001,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.98221875,"end":70.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.05784375,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.80784375,"end":82.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.36409375000001,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.14846875,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.36721875,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.58659375,"end":96.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.01596875,"end":96.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.74159375,"end":97.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.49659375,"end":102.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.12034375,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.25471875000001,"end":112.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.09346875000001,"end":119.84346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.19784375,"end":125.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.17159375000001,"end":127.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.24721875,"end":132.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.44471875000002,"end":135.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.75659375,"end":139.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.57034375,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.55721875,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.68346875,"end":145.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.48909375,"end":161.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.24596875,"end":163.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.00534375,"end":164.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.47346875000002,"end":165.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.62096875,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.45159375,"end":171.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.25721875000002,"end":173.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.57346875000002,"end":174.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.31159375000001,"end":178.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.82159375,"end":184.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.18784375,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.49159375000002,"end":195.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.13534375,"end":196.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.62034375000002,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.32034375,"end":201.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.85596875000002,"end":209.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.73659375000003,"end":216.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.67221875,"end":218.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.95034375,"end":219.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.24971875000003,"end":224.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.51909375000002,"end":225.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.10534375,"end":228.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.28221875000003,"end":232.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.28159375,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.33221875,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":233.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.04846875,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.70596875,"end":250.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.48971875,"end":251.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.63721875000002,"end":260.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.47971875,"end":266.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.24659375000005,"end":270.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.52034375,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.53659375,"end":280.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.22346875,"end":282.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.50159375000004,"end":285.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.56909375000004,"end":282.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.31159375000004,"end":284.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.34909375,"end":287.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.15909375,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.17596875000004,"end":287.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.22221875,"end":291.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.31034375,"end":297.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.38534375,"end":307.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.81409375000004,"end":314.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.47971875,"end":323.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.44034375,"end":343.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.38659375000003,"end":343.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.40346875,"end":343.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.48784375,"end":344.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.20909375,"end":345.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.52534375000005,"end":358.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.37159375000005,"end":368.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.65721875,"end":368.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.64846875,"end":369.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.36971875,"end":371.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.98971875,"end":379.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.60034375000004,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.88284375,"end":384.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.01721875000004,"end":394.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.84409375,"end":386.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.90596875,"end":398.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.58471875000004,"end":401.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.48721875,"end":402.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.70221875000004,"end":404.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.92971875,"end":406.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.71846875,"end":407.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.84909375,"end":408.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.26659375,"end":411.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.32096875,"end":414.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.26159375000003,"end":422.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.41346875000005,"end":414.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.73284375000003,"end":424.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.50034375,"end":426.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.98534375,"end":433.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.75221875000005,"end":442.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.15159375,"end":445.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.39159375,"end":453.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.17534375,"end":464.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.75159375000004,"end":467.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.45159375000003,"end":479.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.48346875000004,"end":485.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.07721875000004,"end":487.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.38096875,"end":487.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.30909375000005,"end":501.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.50534375,"end":506.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.26409375000003,"end":509.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.40284375000005,"end":510.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.24221875,"end":513.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.70596875,"end":519.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.2747187500001,"end":531.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.0490937500001,"end":534.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.96846875,"end":539.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.3390937500001,"end":541.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.3640937499999,"end":543.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.94159375,"end":572.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.9265937499999,"end":560.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.1272187500001,"end":580.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.7165937500001,"end":589.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.2678437500001,"end":594.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.97596875,"end":596.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.96721875,"end":609.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.06221875,"end":616.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.7109687500001,"end":619.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.5122187500001,"end":621.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.55409375,"end":622.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.83659375,"end":623.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.1359687500001,"end":625.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.94596875,"end":625.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.51971875,"end":625.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.5534687500001,"end":630.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.29534375,"end":634.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.61534375,"end":646.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.45721875,"end":650.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.37221875,"end":652.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.0303437499999,"end":667.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.24721875,"end":671.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.5547187500001,"end":675.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.97596875,"end":688.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.4297187500001,"end":691.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.04534375,"end":691.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.8047187500001,"end":691.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.9734687499999,"end":694.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.53846875,"end":695.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.95596875,"end":697.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.36909375,"end":700.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":701.27159375,"end":702.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.97596875,"end":704.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.25846875,"end":704.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.4778437500001,"end":704.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.93346875,"end":706.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.0347187500001,"end":705.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.3003437500001,"end":706.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.33409375,"end":707.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.02596875,"end":708.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.05096875,"end":713.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.5903437500001,"end":717.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.18034375,"end":722.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.6184687500001,"end":724.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.20034375,"end":727.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.1240937500002,"end":727.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.15784375,"end":727.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.3772187500001,"end":727.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.4109687499999,"end":727.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.44471875,"end":727.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.9678437500002,"end":728.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.7778437500001,"end":728.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":728.7947187500001,"end":730.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.9040937500001,"end":732.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.9797187500001,"end":734.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":734.59971875,"end":747.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.01534375,"end":749.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.80409375,"end":757.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.0265937500001,"end":779.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.5278437500001,"end":762.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.28534375,"end":775.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.09534375,"end":776.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":778.81221875,"end":783.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.2334687500002,"end":794.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.5872187500001,"end":787.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.6884687500001,"end":787.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":795.38346875,"end":797.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.77159375,"end":810.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.4697187500001,"end":813.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":813.37221875,"end":815.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.63346875,"end":816.0047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":816.0047187500002,"end":829.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.62909375,"end":817.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.7040937500001,"end":823.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.26846875,"end":831.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":831.10784375,"end":833.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":833.92596875,"end":872.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.7553437500001,"end":878.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.47159375,"end":883.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.28096875,"end":886.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.8628437500001,"end":889.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.73159375,"end":892.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":892.83659375,"end":892.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.95471875,"end":893.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.08971875,"end":893.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.11909375,"end":896.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":895.7390937500002,"end":897.4265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":897.4265937500002,"end":897.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":897.44346875,"end":901.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.5947187500001,"end":918.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":918.9084687500001,"end":924.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":923.1440937500001,"end":930.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":930.9909687500001,"end":932.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":931.2947187500001,"end":932.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":934.48409375,"end":934.9734687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.181,"end":16.827,"text":"謝謝韓院長是不是來請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢議員好院長你好"},{"start":29.773,"end":50.82,"text":"我想因為未來可能5到10年AI產業將迅速的發展那AI產業這個整個科技創新製程要需要龐大的用電那產業界包括美國商會他們其實都十分的擔憂超過七成美國商會的成員"},{"start":52.14,"end":65.591,"text":"對於這個綠色能源的供應他們講實在話都有擔憂那各界懷疑在現在能源政策下是否能夠因應整個未來的發展院長你的看法謝謝委員"},{"start":67.284,"end":95.512,"text":"我當然跟各位一樣我們都會關注社會上各方對我們現在能源政策所提出來的建議質疑或是任何新的方法但是我們會在當中找一個目前我們正在推動的我們認為是可以執行的方式我們極力的推這個過程當中遇到任何的困難希望大家共同來解決目前我們是在朝發展多元綠能跟深度節能跟先進的儲能以及強韌電網這方面走"},{"start":96.792,"end":119.115,"text":"那個院長為了因應2050年淨零排碳的目標世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的人員包括核電在內那國際這個原子能總署強調這個世界需要這個核電來減少整個碳的一個排放"},{"start":120.817,"end":131.971,"text":"此外,美國和20幾個國家也共同發表核能宣言,共同努力於2050年全球核能容量"},{"start":133.496,"end":134.176,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":163.291,"end":164.475,"text":"院長,您怎麼看?"},{"start":166.65,"end":193.727,"text":"報告委員我們當然不會沒有看到國際的情勢但現在對台灣來講兩條路線傳統的核電我們現在在核管法的法定規定底下明年核三長二號機必須要除役這是我們法律的規定我們現在是依法而行未來的新核能技術現在我們沒有辦法去預測到它發展的速度跟方向但是我們採取絕對開放的態度也願意學習也願意討論"},{"start":196.175,"end":225.348,"text":"那個院長您日前接受外媒的訪問提及台灣對採用新核能科技的態度規常的開放是的那本席就此來請教對於新核能的科技目前大部分討論是小型模組的這個模組化的這個反應爐SMR那政府花了多少預算與努力來因應來做準備呢"},{"start":226.318,"end":250.195,"text":"我們現在是沒有直接在這個小SMR這個工程上面核電廠上面來做比較多的研究但是我們跟世界的先進的技術都是有連結跟討論的不只這些我們還有更未來的核融核等等我們還有現在2030年也許還有一個更革命性的產品會出現這個我們都持續的保持"},{"start":251.696,"end":273.932,"text":"本席我又請我助理來查詢政府研究報告找到一篇關於這個小型模組化反應爐的研究預算是60萬元那請問卓院長2025年政府對於小型模組化反應爐會投入多少的預算來研究呢"},{"start":274.672,"end":284.942,"text":"據我所知他所謂小型也不是真的很小型放在桌上的也不是他是好像也是一個好像大巨蛋那麼大類似啦而且他也會產生核廢料"},{"start":286.397,"end":307.39,"text":"也是會核廢料,所以說你們目前沒有考慮是不是?不是,我們還是在研究它的帶來會不會有新的一些發展的方向,郭部長應該更清楚。跟委員報告,SMR是這樣,SMR因為我們現在比較小隻,所以比較容易設置,但是它還是會產生核廢料。"},{"start":307.79,"end":308.871,"text":"三個問題如果我們可以確認安全的"},{"start":330.504,"end":331.345,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":346.581,"end":346.701,"text":"臺灣國防部長"},{"start":372.842,"end":399.855,"text":"民進黨政府執政後推動匯合佳餘也讓核電人才培育浮現危機。現階段核電與未來20、30年的技術不同,本席認為政府有必要持續投入核電研究,因為新世代思維改變,未來可能就需要用核電,國內如果不繼續發展核電"},{"start":401.536,"end":424.789,"text":"何能的人才恐怕會大量的斷層你有什麼看法?這個很佩服也支持委員這樣的建議跟看法那我們日前也做過這樣的表示現在河山廠的這些有經驗的這些工程人員他們不僅要處理河後端的很多處理他們也要去接續研究"},{"start":425.469,"end":425.509,"text":"主席"},{"start":446.7,"end":466.316,"text":"讓民眾透過能源模擬器來瞭解減碳與電價之間的關聯。那過了10年時空環境有所更迭那臺灣歷經新冠疫情、烏鴉戰爭的影響導致購電的成本大幅的增加那電價三年漲了4次"},{"start":467.597,"end":477.905,"text":"那本席我是希望說經濟部重啟臺灣2050能源供需情境的模擬器把這些資訊攤在陽光下讓大家來選擇如何務實達到2050淨民排碳"},{"start":488.376,"end":500.873,"text":"報告委員那個模擬器10年前我也用過但是10年前沒有把這個價格因素放進去那未來我們也看過MIT有類似這樣的工具那我們會來參佐但是價格還是最重要最麻煩的一個點"},{"start":501.553,"end":503.334,"text":"市長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":519.386,"end":542.628,"text":"以代價、理性思考各種人員選擇下的利弊得失以這樣的工序作為共同討論的基礎來嘗試去尋找適合的人員發展路徑我請問卓院長何時能夠重啟臺灣2050年人員供需情境的模擬器"},{"start":545.718,"end":563.152,"text":"報告委員那個我們國家氣候變遷對策委員會有一個決議我們行政院也在研議當中我們會有一個平台那跟那個委員提到的非常的像那我們會來研議可能要到我目前預計是要大概三個月的時間因為裡面的設計還有討論還要多方的意見"},{"start":563.812,"end":577.365,"text":"因為不一樣的支持者對於這個概念平台長什麼樣子可能不大一樣所以我們會努力能夠把這個平台的樣子能夠做出來我是希望說這個要積極不要因為我們今天是針對問題來探討怎麼去解決問題"},{"start":581.788,"end":605.357,"text":"經濟部對外表示說深度節能推動計畫目標累計4年113到116可能可節省206億度206億度的電那今年8月行政院這個第3915次院會深度節能的推動計畫提到大用戶節電1%的目標部長是不是是"},{"start":609.298,"end":623.347,"text":"那,過了兩個月經濟部預告修法,要求契約用電容量超過一萬千瓦的用電大戶,年節電力要提高到1.5%,有沒有這檔事?"},{"start":623.347,"end":623.468,"text":"是的"},{"start":626.53,"end":645.086,"text":"那請問卓院長深度節能的計畫針對用電大戶要求節能的目標已經有所不同是否代表深度節能目標206億度應該再往上調整因為你既然本來1%現在調到1.5%那你一樣維持206億度"},{"start":651.451,"end":651.471,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":668.237,"end":669.658,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":691.278,"end":717.609,"text":"那你們有沒有針對儲能這部分有去做各方面的研究因為很多電你沒有使用然後你沒有儲能它就消失掉了那這不是浪費嗎那你今天要是有儲能的設施節能減碳我們的EXCO計畫裡面就是有儲能對啊但是目前來講經濟部到底有沒有在推"},{"start":718.24,"end":742.948,"text":"有,我們現在就是開始先把那個模型建立起來,就是譬如說喀喀要怎麼做,公司要怎麼做。其實我有去參觀過人家的廠,而且國內有在生產,結果它是什麼,它是只要家戶也可以用,你大樓裡面甚至於它就可以替代發電機,因為講實在話,晚上你離風時間,它就把它儲能,"},{"start":748.069,"end":774.78,"text":"他白天就可以用因為白天是尖峰時間晚上是離峰時間其實這些本來你們就應該要積極的推我們現在都在推這個這個所謂智慧化的管理對那我們是從照明從空調跟動力這三個方向去整合所以這個然後那個電的部分因為晚上離峰的時候"},{"start":775.16,"end":793.665,"text":"對阿 電價比較便宜 除能阿 對阿白天可以用除能器使用在白天晚上除能 白天用電其實它也不會浪費掉照理講經濟部跟行政院這邊應該要去"},{"start":795.866,"end":815.143,"text":"有這部分各位委員報告這部分我們都在進行我們現在甚至於連廠商我們都要管理哪一些廠商是我們建議的他確實是透過我們標準局同意的東西我想這個我們一步步在建議因為我們的廠商甚至於在國外都有建廠我相信你們應該要多去了解"},{"start":815.743,"end":828.718,"text":"是對不對你去了解那確實能夠達到那個就是不要讓他浪費掉那你能夠除人然後又能夠使用而且來來調控這個才是正道"},{"start":829.495,"end":846.81,"text":"這部分我們都在進行中。好不好,郭部長最後用一點心,因為深度節能的目標提到要設置儲能設備移轉尖峰用電,但最近儲能廠新建屢屢受到周邊的民眾的反對,擔心儲能電廠電池過熱的故障引發火勢,"},{"start":852.054,"end":878.45,"text":"將難以控制以電動車特斯拉為例一旦起火研究指出需要75噸的水才能夠控制火勢假設一定的規模除能電廠失火需要耗費多少的水資源政府是都有做好研究跟準備這個部分我們都會加強管理因為目前我們針對主要有這個事件產生的廠商"},{"start":879.511,"end":897.71,"text":"不管它是國內製造的也好,或者是進口的這些除能設備也好,我們都會深入的去了解,到底這些磁芯,這些到底是哪邊製造的。對啦,那個...我們不可以讓它繼續發生這個...對啦,那個卓院長、郭部長,"},{"start":898.371,"end":898.631,"text":"主席"},{"start":919.071,"end":923.378,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（17時4分）謝謝韓院長，是不是請卓院長跟郭部長？"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：院長你好。未來可能5到10年AI產業將迅速發展，AI產業整個科技創新製程需要龐大用電，產業界包括美國商會其實都十分擔憂，超過七成美國商會的成員對於綠色能源的供應，講實在話，他們都有擔憂，各界懷疑在現行能源政策下，是否能夠因應未來的整個發展。院長，你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我當然跟各位委員一樣，我們都會關注社會上各方對我們現在能源政策提出來的建議、質疑，或是任何新的方法，但是我們會在當中找一個目前我們正在推動的，我們認為可以執行的方式極力地推。這個過程當中遇到任何的困難，希望大家共同解決，目前我們是朝發展多元綠能、深度節能、先進儲能以及強韌電網這方面來走。"],["林委員德福：我知道。院長，為了因應2050年淨零排碳的目標，世界各國的趨勢就是擁抱乾淨的能源，包括核電在內。國際原子能總署強調，世界需要核電來減少整個碳排放；此外美國和二十幾個國家也共同發表核能宣言，共同努力於2050年將全球核能容量增加為三倍的目標。美國、日本、韓國都大舉發展核電，而賴政府卻不願意調整非核家園的能源政策。本席認為，2050年減碳目標將難以達成，天然氣發電比例過高，電價容易受到國際情勢影響，更要面對缺電的風險。院長，你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們當然不會沒有看到國際的情勢，但現在對臺灣來講，兩條路線，傳統的核電，我們現在在核管法的法令規定底下，明年核三廠2號機必須除役。這是我們法律的規定，我們現在是依法而行……"],["林委員德福：這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：未來的新核能技術，現在我們沒有辦法預測到它發展的速度和方向，但是我們採取絕對開放的態度，願意學習，也願意討論。"],["林委員德福：院長，您日前接受外媒訪問，提及臺灣對採用新核能科技的態度非常開放。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員德福：那本席就此來請教，對於新核能科技，目前大部分是討論小型模組化反應爐（SMR），政府花了多少預算與努力來因應、準備？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在沒有直接在SMR這個工程上面、核電廠上面做比較多的研究……"],["林委員德福：都沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：但我們跟世界先進的技術都是有連結和討論的。不只這些，我們還有更未來的核融合等等，2030年也許還有一個更革命性的產品會出現，這個我們都持續保持。"],["林委員德福：院長，我有請我助理查詢政府的研究報告，找到一篇關於小型模組化反應爐（SMR）的研究，預算是60萬元。請問卓院長，2050年政府對於小型模組化反應爐（SMR）會投入多少預算來研究，你有沒有這種規劃？"],["卓院長榮泰：據我所知，所謂小型，它也不是真的很小型、放在桌上，也不是，也是好像一個大巨蛋那麼大、類似……"],["林委員德福：那你們有沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且它也會產生核廢料。"],["林委員德福：也是會有核廢料？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，也會產生核廢料。"],["林委員德福：所以你們目前沒有考慮，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是在研究會不會有新的一些發展方向，郭部長應該更清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，SMR是這樣子，SMR比較小台，所以比較容易設置，但它還是會產生核廢料，甚至有的研究者說它產生的核廢料要處理的時間更久。所以我們還在觀察，因為對我們來講，我們的三個前提是最重要的，第一個就是安全，第二個是核廢料可以處理，第三個當然是全民共識，這個大家大概都差不多。所以這兩個問題如果我們可以確認是安全的，確認核廢料處理沒有問題，這也解開了現在核管法的規範，我們這個內閣當然整個都在重視而且注視這個命題。","我們很清楚，在這個AI的時代，電力等於國力，所以我們不會視而不見，也不會不去討論它，我們現在把我們的人員都留置。雖然依照核管法，現在核三廠1號機停下來了，但是我們讓人員繼續留駐，請他們觀察……"],["林委員德福：郭部長、卓院長，民進黨執政後推動非核家園，也讓核電人才的培育浮現了危機，現階段的核電技術與未來20年、30年會有所不同，本席認為政府有必要持續投入核電的研究，因為新世代的思維改變，未來可能就需要使用核電，國內如果不繼續發展核電，核能的人才恐怕會大量斷層，你對此有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：很佩服也支持委員這樣的建議跟看法，我們日前也做過這樣的表示，現在核三廠這些有經驗的工程人員不僅要做很多核後端的處理工作，也要接續研究可能的先進技術，甚至未來國內各種變化的可能，都要有因應的人力，所以我們全力要把他們留置下來。"],["林委員德福：對，一定要讓這些人才繼續留置。","過去在2014、2015的時候，經濟部有推動能源模擬器，參考英國的做法，讓民眾透過能源模擬器來瞭解減碳與電價之間的關聯。過了10年，時空環境有所更迭，臺灣歷經新冠疫情、烏俄戰爭的影響，導致購電成本大幅增加，電價3年漲了4次，本席是希望經濟部重啟臺灣2050能源供需情境的模擬器，把這些資訊攤在陽光下，讓大家來選擇如何務實達到2050淨零碳排。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個模擬器10年前我也用過，但是10年前沒有把價格因素放進去，我們也看過MIT有類似這樣的工具，我們會來參酌，但是價格還是最重要、最麻煩的一個點。"],["林委員德福：我是認為應該要繼續，然後發表讓外界瞭解。好不好？讓外界清楚知道發電的成本差異，各種發電方式的碳排放量，來提供可能需面臨的風險與代價，理性思考各種能源選擇下的利弊得失。以這樣的工具做為共同討論的基礎，嘗試尋找適合的能源發展路徑。請問卓院長，何時能夠重啟臺灣2050能源供需情境的模擬器呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：請彭部長答復。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，國家氣候變遷對策委員會有一個決議，行政院也在研議當中，我們會有一個平臺，跟委員提到的非常的像。我們會來研議，目前預計大概要3個月的時間，裡面的設計和討論還要多方的意見，因為不一樣的支持者對於這個概念、平臺長什麼樣子的看法可能不大一樣，所以我們會努力把這個平臺的樣子做出來。"],["林委員德福：我是希望這個要積極啦！因為我們今天是針對問題來探討，怎麼去解決問題。","經濟部對外表示，深度節能推動計畫目標累計4年（113年到116年）可節省206億度的電，今年8月行政院第3915次院會有關深度節能推動計畫提到大用戶節電1%的目標，部長，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：過了兩個月，經濟部預告修法要求契約用電容量超過1萬瓩的用電大戶，年節電率要提高到1.5%，有沒有這檔事？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["林委員德福：那請問卓院長深度節能的計畫，針對用電大戶要求節能的目標已經有所不同，是否代表深度節能目標206億度應該再往上調整，因為既然本來是1%，現在調到1.5%，你一樣維持206億度，是不是應該要調整？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我們要整體的透過深度節能，然後由公司，大概我們會幫助中小微的企業，所以一開始沒有這麼大的量出來，我們現在是透過這個深度節能，我們希望4年以後能夠增加出來，大概有3.5GW，這是努力的目標，所以我們會請大的公司提升它自主減碳的比例，但是對電的部分，節能減碳是我們最重要的一個目標。"],["林委員德福：你們有沒有針對儲能這部分去做各方面的研究？因為很多電沒有使用、沒有儲能，它就消失掉了。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["林委員德福：那這不是浪費嗎？你今天要是有儲能的設施，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：節能減碳，我們的ESCO計畫裡面就是有儲能。"],["林委員德福：對啊！但是以目前來講，經濟部到底有沒有在推？"],["郭部長智輝：有，我們現在就是開始先把那個模型建立起來，譬如學校要怎麼做、公司要怎麼做……"],["林委員德福：其實我有去參觀過人家的廠，而且國內有在生產，結果它是什麼，它是家戶也可以用，大樓裡面甚至於它就可以替代發電機啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：因為講實在話，晚上離峰時間就把它儲能，白天就可以用，因為白天是尖峰時間，晚上是離峰時間，其實這些本來你們就應該要積極的推。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在都在推這個，所謂智慧化的管理，我們是從照明、空調跟動力這三個方向去整合。而電的部分，因為晚上離峰的時候，電價比較便宜……"],["林委員德福：對啊！儲能啊！"],["郭部長智輝：然後白天，這個電4點以後……"],["林委員德福：我跟你講，白天可以用儲能器，使用在白天，晚上儲能，白天用電，其實它也不會浪費掉。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：照理講，經濟部跟行政院這邊應該要很用心的來經營。"],["郭部長智輝：有，跟委員報告，這部分我們都在進行，我們現在甚至於連廠商，我們都要管理，哪一些廠商是我們建議的，它確實是透過我們標準局同意的東西，我想這些我們都一步步在建立。"],["林委員德福：因為我們的廠商甚至於在國外都有建廠，我相信你們應該要多去了解，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員德福：你去了解，確實能夠達到不讓它浪費掉，你能夠儲能，然後又能夠使用，而且來調控，這才是正道啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們都在進行中。"],["林委員德福：好不好？郭部長，這個要用一點心。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["林委員德福：因為深度節能的目標提到要設置儲能設備，移轉尖峰用電，但最近儲能廠興建屢屢受到周邊民眾的反對，擔心儲能電廠電池過熱故障，引發火勢將難以控制。以電動車特斯拉為例，研究指出，一旦起火需要75噸的水才能夠控制火勢，假設一定規模的儲能電廠失火，需要耗費多少的水資源，政府是否都有做好研究跟準備，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分，我們都會加強管理，因為目前我們針對只要有這個事件產生的廠商，不管它是國內製造的也好，或者是進口的這些儲能設備也好，我們都會深入地去了解這些池芯到底是哪邊製造的。"],["林委員德福：對啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我們不能讓它再繼續發生這種事。"],["林委員德福：對啦！卓院長、郭部長，其實目前整個儲能設備設置要是有遇到抗爭阻礙，你們認為應該要怎麼樣進行跨部會的合作，能夠讓這些問題迎刃而解？我認為儲能是很重要，你今天有儲能，它可以調控，不會說電沒有用，結果就這樣浪費掉了，輸掉就是浪費掉了……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以在二次能源轉型過程當中，深度節能跟先進儲能都是四項當中兩項非常重要的項目，我們會全力地推動。"],["林委員德福：好，我希望能有積極的作為，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。作以下之決定：一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復；二、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，現在我們繼續處理復議案共兩案，依先後順序處理。","請議事人員宣讀第一案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34237766c6fc6f2d836e9140c2b1893b4a9b20467c9a890c274081f7d117a098d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"16:47:59 - 17:04:24","影片長度":"00:16:25","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T16:47:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T17:04:24+08:00","duration":985,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.90346875,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.05034375,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.04596875,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.63221875,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.032843750000001,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.622218750000002,"end":23.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.63909375,"end":24.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.69784375,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.199718750000002,"end":27.942218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.22909375,"end":29.511593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.680343750000002,"end":33.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.42221875,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.31971875,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.01534375,"end":48.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.086593750000006,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.571593750000005,"end":61.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.603468750000005,"end":64.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.05034375000001,"end":66.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.63659375,"end":68.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.99909375,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.15471875,"end":74.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.93909375,"end":76.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.96409375,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.26659375,"end":89.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.48534375,"end":90.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.18971875000001,"end":96.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.26909375000001,"end":101.51721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.63096875000001,"end":105.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.02284375,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.79846875000001,"end":112.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.35096875,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.82284375,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.02284375000002,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.00096875,"end":139.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.53659375,"end":140.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.53221875,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.64596875,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.41784375,"end":156.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.47909375,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.60096875000002,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.26721875,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.92909375000002,"end":175.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.75034375,"end":175.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.07096875000002,"end":181.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.48784375000002,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.31784375,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.94596875000002,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.23659375000003,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.31659375,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.64909375000002,"end":209.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.04034375,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.91346875000002,"end":225.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.78471875000002,"end":228.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.40034375000002,"end":230.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.53909375,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.02784375000002,"end":237.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.15409375000002,"end":238.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.26784375000003,"end":243.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.55409375000002,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.51034375,"end":259.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.22659375,"end":261.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.74534375,"end":266.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.09471875,"end":271.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.76909375,"end":276.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.88221875,"end":277.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.60784375000003,"end":283.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.63221875,"end":286.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.19284375,"end":290.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.29346875000005,"end":293.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.36471875,"end":295.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.98471875,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.81971875,"end":299.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.08534375,"end":301.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.16096875,"end":304.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":316.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.80846875000003,"end":316.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.96034375,"end":317.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.44534375,"end":320.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.97659375,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.49534375,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.69346875,"end":327.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.28784375000004,"end":331.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.38846875,"end":342.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.37409375000004,"end":345.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.41159375,"end":348.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.15784375000004,"end":351.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.26721875000004,"end":352.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.39784375000005,"end":354.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.33409375,"end":355.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.09346875,"end":358.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.99596875000003,"end":360.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.49784375,"end":362.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.42159375,"end":367.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.41659375,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.86721875,"end":374.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.12846875,"end":376.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.30534375,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.02659375,"end":380.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.35534375000003,"end":383.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.75159375000004,"end":384.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.18596875000003,"end":385.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.06346875,"end":387.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.41346875000005,"end":392.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.54346875000005,"end":399.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.56346875,"end":400.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.25096875,"end":402.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.27596875,"end":403.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.64284375000005,"end":406.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.88284375,"end":409.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.51971875000004,"end":415.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.17346875000004,"end":411.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.47659375,"end":415.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.89409375,"end":420.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.74159375000005,"end":428.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.31846875,"end":431.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.21659375,"end":435.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.84034375000005,"end":437.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.68409375000005,"end":439.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.77221875000004,"end":441.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.18971875000005,"end":447.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.87659375000004,"end":449.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.74971875000006,"end":452.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.50034375,"end":454.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.03159375,"end":460.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.49471875,"end":462.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.87846875,"end":464.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":465.88221875000005,"end":477.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.28971875,"end":489.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.76034375,"end":490.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":491.39721875000004,"end":493.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.32096875,"end":503.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.23909375000005,"end":505.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":506.38221875000005,"end":507.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":507.36096875000004,"end":508.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.54221875,"end":511.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.20846875,"end":512.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.38534375,"end":514.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.68471875,"end":527.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.83534375,"end":523.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.47596875,"end":528.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.62346875,"end":529.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.6147187500001,"end":531.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.5890937500001,"end":534.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.63096875,"end":537.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":537.2297187500001,"end":537.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.7865937500001,"end":557.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.00284375,"end":562.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.4365937499999,"end":563.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.75284375,"end":566.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.3178437500001,"end":574.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.84409375,"end":575.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.56534375,"end":581.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.8472187500001,"end":589.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.6897187500001,"end":591.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.14096875,"end":596.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.37659375,"end":598.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.89096875,"end":599.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.2409687500001,"end":602.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.4853437500001,"end":629.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.9578437499999,"end":631.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.79721875,"end":633.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.7378437500001,"end":634.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.0034687500001,"end":635.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.35346875,"end":637.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.14221875,"end":640.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.26409375,"end":643.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.33534375,"end":645.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.74846875,"end":649.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.97159375,"end":650.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.68034375,"end":651.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.67596875,"end":652.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.4184687500001,"end":652.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.8190937500001,"end":654.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.8147187500001,"end":659.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.2990937500001,"end":664.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.9565937500001,"end":666.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.7622187500001,"end":667.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.12471875,"end":673.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.2040937500001,"end":683.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.3259687500001,"end":679.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.8234687500001,"end":679.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.85659375,"end":684.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.02534375,"end":684.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.0759687500001,"end":684.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.3290937500001,"end":685.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.53159375,"end":687.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.78846875,"end":698.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.31409375,"end":702.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.6047187500001,"end":702.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.6384687500001,"end":702.6553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.43159375,"end":707.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.36346875,"end":709.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.3547187500001,"end":710.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.12659375,"end":711.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.1728437500001,"end":712.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.08409375,"end":714.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.1428437500001,"end":716.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.21846875,"end":718.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.72034375,"end":720.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.44159375,"end":721.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.6228437500001,"end":722.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.91784375,"end":726.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.5422187500001,"end":733.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.3728437500001,"end":728.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":733.9753437500001,"end":735.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.6415937500001,"end":740.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.4809687500001,"end":739.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.96596875,"end":740.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":741.38346875,"end":745.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":745.2478437500001,"end":746.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":747.15471875,"end":752.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":752.8078437500001,"end":754.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":754.42784375,"end":757.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.6340937500001,"end":758.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":759.6084687500002,"end":763.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":763.84409375,"end":768.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":769.1765937499999,"end":773.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":773.2097187500001,"end":776.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":777.05721875,"end":781.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.30971875,"end":782.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.4865937500001,"end":787.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.02596875,"end":788.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.0890937500001,"end":797.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.61096875,"end":800.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.32784375,"end":806.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.07784375,"end":807.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.56284375,"end":814.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.46909375,"end":823.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.2778437500001,"end":828.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":828.6103437500001,"end":829.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.9265937500002,"end":832.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.36909375,"end":833.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":834.4153437500001,"end":838.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":839.2078437500002,"end":840.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.8615937500001,"end":844.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.8103437500001,"end":851.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.03284375,"end":853.6865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.8047187500001,"end":854.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":854.71596875,"end":856.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.2178437500002,"end":857.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.92221875,"end":868.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":869.61659375,"end":870.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.74721875,"end":871.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.6415937500001,"end":873.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":873.9197187500001,"end":874.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":875.21909375,"end":879.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.6740937500001,"end":880.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":880.9734687500002,"end":887.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":888.2634687500001,"end":888.2803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.2803437500002,"end":889.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.19159375,"end":890.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":891.6215937500001,"end":893.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.10221875,"end":895.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.51971875,"end":896.5828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":896.8022187500001,"end":898.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.72596875,"end":906.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.1297187500002,"end":909.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":910.23471875,"end":911.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":911.3147187500001,"end":914.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":915.1453437500002,"end":915.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":916.3772187500001,"end":922.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":923.04284375,"end":926.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":926.8059687500001,"end":928.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":928.40909375,"end":930.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":938.65221875,"end":939.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.1540937500001,"end":943.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":944.87909375,"end":945.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":946.2122187500001,"end":949.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":948.8615937500001,"end":949.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":949.36784375,"end":949.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":949.65471875,"end":949.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":950.09346875,"end":950.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":950.88659375,"end":958.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":958.91909375,"end":961.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":961.31534375,"end":971.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":976.4184687500001,"end":976.6040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":976.8234687500001,"end":976.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":983.38784375,"end":983.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":984.1809687500001,"end":985.5478437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.702,"end":15.824,"text":"謝謝我們韓院長,有請我們行政院卓榮泰院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。我們股發會主委,還有我們經濟部郭部長。郭部長請備詢。張委員好。委員長好。我剛剛啊,特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員,這樣整個一輪這樣質詢下來啊,"},{"start":34.668,"end":62.831,"text":"有一個感觸就是說這麼多的國民黨委員的一個質詢裡面在今天整個我們能源的一個佔比該怎麼樣來做一個分配國民黨委員確實他的想法是認為說核能我們現在這個政府如果是一個負責任的你就必須要去把它做重啟他會舉瑞士舉了好多的一個國家我跟你講當然他的理由我相信他也不是惡意他就會認為說"},{"start":65.1,"end":89.9,"text":"沒有核能的話你那個電價你會飆高國家我們台電會去買更多的電進來然後呢政府要去做一個補貼國民黨的委員幾乎是這個意思那所以他到最後跟你說院長你雖然是講到說整個核管法裡面的一個規定啊你必須要依法來行政啊國民黨委員甚至跟你拍胸脯跟你講那我配合跟你做一個修法我一直這樣想"},{"start":92.902,"end":101.293,"text":"就說從2016年蔡英文總統民進黨重新在執政以後啊民進黨政府啟動了一個能源的一個轉型確立了非核家園的一個政策的一個方向"},{"start":102.934,"end":132.217,"text":"當初啊你去看這樣的一個配比裡面啊2016年核能是12%藍莓45%天然氣32%再生能源4.8到了2024所以現在520蔡總統卸任我們帶總統上來就我們左內閣開始的時候啊你看到核能是到5.4藍莓40天然氣41再生能源10%那以今天來看的話你整個河山廠一號機已經停機二號機現在又在稅休"},{"start":133.018,"end":136.349,"text":"以今天的來看的話﹐台灣的核電廠核能是0%﹐"},{"start":138.018,"end":165.038,"text":"郭部長我這樣講對嗎是所以說我就有一個想法就是說從這兩個時間走你去看你會發現再生能源跟替代能源他確實成長了不少但以現在台灣來看的話我們確實也面臨一些問題我今天我看到這個台達電的創辦人原來就是跟部長一樣都是企業界的他說台灣費用核電不可他甚至認為說錯誤的政策必須要去做一個改變"},{"start":165.987,"end":174.324,"text":"那卓院長的回覆啊也很妙那你的回覆就是說你不能去你那一句話是說不能去突破"},{"start":175.759,"end":177.599,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":202.705,"end":230.257,"text":"政府這兩大命題是責無旁貸所以我要就較三個問題院長我們現在來看的話我們現在是非核家園的一個推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的一個重視跟展現台灣對國際綠色能源趨勢的一個接軌的一個決心可是我們也看到你說台灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口"},{"start":231.704,"end":259.515,"text":"前陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演現在改變方式了他用封鎖的這樣一個方式那我們民眾可能就會去想到說你一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話那我們能源確實會面臨很大的一個風險那臺灣又處在一個整個國際上政治風險比較高的一個地區那如何去維持穩定跟安全能源的一個供應我來看這個"},{"start":261.789,"end":287.707,"text":"政府真的是確實該去未雨綢繆為什麼呢你第一個你去想到的就是說面對這樣的一個軍演的時候我想就叫郭部長就說那我們的能源的進口的部分我們儲存量到底是幾天報告委員我們明目上面就是你在上面所寫的這個天然氣是8天8天煤炭就是42天但是我們不能夠講太詳細了這個應該是國安問題"},{"start":291.391,"end":297.397,"text":"但是我 部長我要提醒 院長我要提醒就是說我們隔壁的日本他幾天他36天36天 俄烏戰爭的時候歐盟去跟他的會員國講說對於能源的儲備他是30到60天那我今天講的就是說我們台灣我們本身如何進一步去提升這個儲備能源的一個天數這個部分"},{"start":318.496,"end":344.902,"text":"我看到去跟別人做比較,還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人做比較,我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方。阿比較不緊張的,日本當然也緊張啦齁,他要三十六天,阿歐盟要三十至九十,阿咧你說我們八天,我們確實我們也要未雨綢繆,去因應這種突發的這種狀況,我不曉得院長你的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":345.424,"end":373.051,"text":"未來我們會持續的增加我們的安全儲量那這個的數字當然我們現在是在一個研議的過程當中它一定會增加安全儲量用什麼的途徑就是增加它的接氣站增加它的接氣槽甚至用增加船次班次的這個狀況來增加我們的量這個都是未來的計畫當中這個應該到政府都責無旁貸了另外就是說剛國民黨委員提到核電確實是個兩難"},{"start":375.188,"end":402.021,"text":"以今天來看的話以今天台灣的用電量全國都沒有核電我屏東的核三廠的二號機現在是稅休的那可是呢我們碰到一個問題啊你說先前回答說要在台灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心啊喔我看很多管理局啊就開始都打電話給你郭部長啊就說我這裡也賣我婚姻也賣中華也賣台灣也要賣那好康的台灣也都要賣但是這也凸顯一個問題啊那"},{"start":404.673,"end":418.143,"text":"多設在臺灣以後成如郭部長你講的2030年之前你可能還有10座資料中心會在臺在臺灣來做一個設置那主任長你現在整個內閣團隊你是說叫做AI內閣"},{"start":420.948,"end":439.631,"text":"你這個AI數據中心科技一直在發展帶動整個台灣經濟發展國人都樂於見到但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友會擔心的你供電如何去做一個穩定這個不對2030年你真的還有信心嗎"},{"start":441.174,"end":458.342,"text":"報告委員因為AI的Data Center我想每一個世界的大廠都想要接近台灣因為台灣在AI的晶片跟AI的伺服器是世界第一名所以所有的Data Center都希望來臺灣在臺灣的電晶、相對、沒有說下跪"},{"start":466.176,"end":486.406,"text":"當時在電的量有夠嗎?然後是綠電現在這個AI Center基本上都希望是綠電所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應所以包括在目前的為止我們現在提升所以剛剛有說數字我們行政院的數字就是說我們希望從現在這個綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%"},{"start":491.508,"end":510.52,"text":"這是要越救越趕所以我們在對這個AI加強的量我們只能夠這個說長遠來講當然零碳是我們最重要的目標但是目前來講眼前的就是綠我們一定要放在前面這是我的選擇性我比較擔心的是"},{"start":513.464,"end":529.601,"text":"卓院長,你的談話我也看到了,你說到2030年之前,這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的一個發展,2030年之前,供電無虞啦,這可以當現看嗎?但本席看法,我覺得這氣魄不過。"},{"start":532.648,"end":557.271,"text":"今年2024年2030年是五年多而已一個能源政策的一個規劃哪有只會只有規劃只有五年多可以想像說實作資料跟數據中心到台灣來然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技的一個發展各個行業的一個發展用電量確實還是會再增加喔"},{"start":558.412,"end":575.301,"text":"還是會再增加所以我一直在想想說今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的一個主張他的主張就是你沒辦法"},{"start":576.838,"end":598.014,"text":"經濟若一直發展之後,你搞不好就是重啟核電,這就是國民黨的主張。國民黨的主張就是你那個核管法,你現行法律,卓榮泰院長你不用擔心,我國民黨可以幫你解套。這個是一個站在整個經濟的發展,這樣的一個態度我是可以接受的喔,但問題是說他沒有考慮到一點。"},{"start":600.27,"end":629.363,"text":"因為你講的單數就比較多啦就是說我核廢料有辦法處理啦火能安全我有辦法有辦法全部都來確保啦就當然啦這個在每一個國民在我們這個島上這個國家安身立命如果說為了一個經濟的一個發展電力的一個穩定供電然後到最後核廢料沒辦法處理核安沒有辦法去做保證民眾嚇都給嚇死了所以你才會去講說有新的科技如果到最後可以確保來做這些處理"},{"start":630.083,"end":659.324,"text":"我們政府是可以比較開放的一個態度但是我又擔心了我面對這個問題喔我是屬於民進黨的基本教育派喔可是我面對這個問題我也是很大的一個衝擊啊阿如果經濟你說一年三兆的總預算規模是三兆阿左內閣拼國部長拿去招商每年變四兆或連變五兆、六兆搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去的時候"},{"start":660.453,"end":663.798,"text":"委員報告其實早上的報告裡面我們是推算到2033年"},{"start":674.264,"end":694.856,"text":"我們有增加的17.86GW是沒有缺點我認為連不要說33年我也覺得沒有氣魄阿我們現在是保守的先跟大家講2024執政完2028捏你如果有辦法跟電都不一樣經濟是很發展捏那叫做連連到2032捏那時候你就開聲嚇唬說我走狀態我也要選總統我只有韓國瑜可以選而已是不是這樣講所以你到2033我也覺得氣魄不夠"},{"start":703.513,"end":703.673,"text":"主席"},{"start":723.936,"end":724.917,"text":"我們可以算到2040年"},{"start":737.147,"end":739.688,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":759.656,"end":786.098,"text":"科技技術就是最新的這個發電的技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定所以這個我們現在不敢亂講我們還是要看科學數據的發展所以我們現在只算到2033年但是我相信2030年的時候這個世界會有一個非常大的改變其實我是擔心啦你像我們要提升力量國會主委你如果你在說"},{"start":789.149,"end":806.355,"text":"全世界R1-100全世界超過400間企業,台灣也有19間不管是從蘋果、谷歌或台積,綠電的需求會越來越高可是你如果從太陽能用光電來看的話,台灣這麼多的面積比較小,我們真的小"},{"start":808.456,"end":809.316,"text":"以那個部分他也不是綠電他"},{"start":834.485,"end":856.697,"text":"也有剛我提到的那些整個能源我們怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題你說幾個階幾階幾階到最後也影響到環境的衝擊甚至會有政治上的一個抗爭的一個問題所以這個是一個大災問真的是一個大災問這個是全國各個政黨"},{"start":857.961,"end":874.208,"text":"都要去面對,國民黨的講法是跟你講說,你政府我就跟你說,你重啓核電,他覺得好像重啓核電是這樣,啓下去就叫做重啓,他不知道一個發電廠,它的廚藝料,要重啓,保證幾檔?25檔嗎?最快要幾檔?要重啓的話,差不多要3點5到5檔。3點5到5檔,真的還可以訂用,真的這麼快嗎?你們給我的數據倒不是這樣,你認為一座核電廠重啓真的3到5年就可以?"},{"start":888.288,"end":888.548,"text":"應該是這樣報告委員"},{"start":916.391,"end":916.411,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":939.232,"end":959.943,"text":"韓國瑜主席說:「你如果要重啟你的所在,你自己也不要擔心民眾。」不過這個是一個大問題,我是期待我剛提到的問題。整個的問題,我是覺得,不管是國民黨也好,不管是民進黨也好,提出這樣的一個問題的人,其實都是擔心臺灣政府的經濟未來的發展。他們講這個能源配比,跟你講能源錯誤政策的錯誤,他是在告訴你,"},{"start":976.494,"end":976.514,"text":"韓國瑜議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":699,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（16時48分）謝謝韓院長，有請行政院卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有國發會主委。"],["主席：劉主委請備詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長好，我剛剛特別在位置上聽了國民黨的委員這樣一輪質詢下來，我有一個感觸，就是在這麼多國民黨委員的質詢裡面，今天我們整個能源的占比該怎麼樣來分配，國民黨委員的想法確實是認為對於核能，現在這個政府如果是負責任的，你就必須要去把它重啟，他會舉瑞士為例、舉好多的國家為例來跟你講，當然我相信他也不是惡意，他就是認為如果沒有核能的話，電價就會飆高，台電會去買更多的電進來，然後政府要補貼，國民黨委員幾乎是這個意思。他到最後跟你說，院長雖然說整個核管法裡面有規定，你必須要依法來行政，國民黨委員甚至拍胸脯跟你講會配合來修法。我一直這樣想，就是從2016年蔡英文總統上任、民進黨重新執政以後，民進黨政府啟動了能源的轉型，確立了非核家園的政策方向，你去看在當初這樣的配比裡面，在2016年核能是12%，燃煤是45%、天然氣是32%、再生能源是4.8%。到了2024年，就是現在，520蔡總統卸任，賴總統上來卓內閣開始的時候，你看核能是到5.4%，燃煤40%，天然氣41%，再生能源10%。以今天來看的話，核三廠一號機已經停機，二號機現在又在歲修，臺灣的核電廠核能是0%。郭部長，我這樣講，對嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我就有一個想法，若從這兩個時間軸去看，你會發現再生能源跟替代能源確實成長了不少，但以現在臺灣來看的話，我們確實也面臨一些問題。今天我看到台達電的創辦人跟部長一樣都是企業界的，他說臺灣非用核電不可，他甚至認為錯誤的政策必須要改變；卓院長的回復也很妙，你的回復就是說，你不能去……你那一句話是說，不能去突破……就是說不能去違法來施政，類似這樣子；而AIT處長谷立言則說，台積電會到美國去投資是因為我們沒有辦法給它足夠的綠能。以這樣來看的話，就企業的看法或者民間的看法，跟政府的說法是有一點落差，但是整個國家的安全跟經濟的發展，我相信從這兩個面向去看的話，政府就這兩大命題是責無旁貸，所以我要就教三個問題，院長，我們現在來看的話，現在非核家園的推動就反映整個政府對環境永續跟能源安全的重視，跟展現臺灣對國際綠色能源趨勢接軌的決心。可是我們也看到了，你說臺灣將近96%的這些能源供應要仰賴進口，前一陣子我們就看到了中國的軍演，現在改變方式了，它用封鎖這樣的方式，民眾可能就會想到，一旦遭遇封鎖或禁運的話，我們的能源確實會面臨很大的風險，臺灣又處在整個國際上政治風險比較高的地區，如何維持穩定跟安全能源的供應，我看政府真的確實該未雨綢繆，為什麼呢？第一個想到的就是面對軍演的時候，我想就教郭部長的是，能源進口的儲存量到底是幾天？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們名目上面就是你在上面所寫的，天然氣就是8天。"],["莊委員瑞雄：8天。"],["郭部長智輝：煤炭就是42天，但是我們不能夠講太詳細，這個應該是國安問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是部長，我要提醒你，院長，我要提醒的是，我們隔壁的日本是幾天？36天；俄烏戰爭的時候，歐盟跟它的會員國說對於能源的儲備，是30到60天。那我今天講的就是說，臺灣本身如何進一步提升儲備能源的天數？我看到這個部分跟別人比較，還有我們整個地緣政治跟別人比較，我們又確實是屬於比較緊張的地方，比較不緊張的……日本當然也緊張，它要36天，歐盟要30至90天，而我們的話，你說我們是8天，確實我們也要未雨綢繆去因應這種突發的狀況，我不曉得院長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來我們會持續增加我們的安全儲量，而這個數字，當然我們現在是在研議的過程當中，一定會增加安全儲量，至於用什麼途徑？就是增加它的接氣站、增加它的接氣槽，甚至用增加船次、班次來增加我們的量，這個都在未來的計畫當中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個政府應該都責無旁貸。另外，剛剛國民黨委員提到，核電確實是個兩難，以今天臺灣的用電量來看，全國都沒有核電，屏東核三廠的二號機現在在歲修，可是我們碰到一個問題，你說先前輝達說要在臺灣設立第二座研發中心跟數據中心，我看很多縣市長就開始打電話跟郭部長說，這裡要、雲林也要、彰化也要、大家都要，好康的大家都要。但是這也凸顯一個問題，都設在臺灣以後，誠如郭部長你講的，2030年之前可能還有10座資料中心會在臺灣設置。卓院長，你說你們現在整個內閣團隊叫做AI內閣，這個AI數據中心，科技一直在發展，帶動整個臺灣經濟發展，國人都樂於見到，但問題也確實會像國民黨朋友擔心的，供電如何穩定？部長，2030你們真的那麼有信心？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，有關AI的data center，我想每一個世界大廠都想要接近臺灣，因為臺灣的AI晶片跟AI伺服器是世界第一名，所以所有的data center都希望過來臺灣，這是第一。第二，臺灣的電費相對沒有那麼貴，是電的量夠不夠，然後是綠電，現在AI center基本上都希望是綠電，所以我們要強化的是綠電的供應。包括到目前為止我們提升……剛剛有一個數字，行政院的數字就是我們希望現在綠能的部分從20%的量能夠拉到2030年是30%，這個是要越拉越高。所以在對AI加強的量，我們只能夠……長遠來講，當然零碳是我們最重要的目標，但是目前來講，眼前的就是綠一定要放在前面，這是選擇性的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我比較擔心的是，卓院長的談話，我也看到了，你說到2030年之前，這一些數據中心、科技的發展跟半導體的發展……"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：2030年之前供電無虞，這是你可以拍胸脯的！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但本席的看法是，我覺得這個氣魄不夠。今年是2024，到2030年只剩下五年多而已。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一個能源政策的規劃哪只有五年多？可以想像10座資料跟數據中心到臺灣來，然後加上我們本國自己本身的科技發展、各個行業的發展，用電量確實還是會再增加！還是會再增加喔！我一直在想，今天民進黨的主張我們自己都很清楚，民進黨的能源政策我非常清楚，所以我今天坐在那邊就是刻意在聽國民黨朋友的主張，他們的主張就是你沒辦法啦！經濟如果一直發展，到最後你就是重啟核電，這是國民黨的主張！國民黨的主張就是，現行法律──核管法，卓榮泰院長不用擔心，國民黨可以幫你解套，這是站在整個經濟發展的態度，我是可以接受。但問題是他沒有考慮到一點，就是院長在說的但書就比較多啦！那就是核廢料要有辦法處理、核能安全也要有辦法全部確保，這當然啦！每一個國民在這個島上，在這個國家安身立命，如果說為了經濟的發展、電力的穩定供電，然後到最後，核廢料沒辦法處理、核安沒有辦法去保證，民眾嚇都給嚇死了！所以你才會說有新的科技，如果到最後可以確保做這些處理，政府是可以持比較開放的態度。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是我又擔心了，我面對這個問題，我是屬於民進黨的基本教義派，可是我面對這個問題，我也是很大的衝擊啊！說到經濟，你說今年的總預算規模是3兆，卓內閣拚！郭部長硬去招商！明年變4兆、後年變5兆、6兆，搞不好總預算規模這樣加上去，確實是到最後，如果不夠電的時候、假設不夠電的時候，院長要怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，其實早上的報告裡面，我們是推算到2033年，我們有增加了17.86GW，是沒有缺電的，但是我們保守的……　"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長，我認為不要說2033年，2033年我也覺得沒有氣魄啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是保守的先跟大家說。"],["莊委員瑞雄：2024年，執政完是2028，你如果有辦法讓電都夠，經濟很發展，那叫做連任到2032，那個時候你就手拿扇子說：我卓榮泰也要選總統，不是只有韓國瑜可以選而已！不是這樣說嗎？所以你說到2033，我也覺得氣魄不夠！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為未來的幾年會有一個比較革命性的發展，我們現在密切注意這種趨勢，但是我跟委員報告，我們現在計畫、時程大概都有，只要給我們充裕的時間、合理的預算，大院強力的監督，全民一起努力，我們可以達到這個目標。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個民進黨一定沒問題啦。"],["郭部長智輝：我們不是只有2033啦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：韓院長，你要幫忙啦，不要一直笑，要支持行政院，他們要拚經濟，我們當然要支持啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以算到2040年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，這樣你們就輪流選總統了。"],["郭部長智輝：2040年，就是說要怎麼讓臺灣可以變成在AI方面世界第一強的國家，電的部分當然我們要考慮，但是我跟委員報告，據我們現在觀察，最新的科技技術、最新的發電技術應該在2040年之前就會穩定了，所以我們現在不敢亂講，還是要看科學數據的發展，所以我們現在只算到2033年，但是我相信2030年的時候，這個世界會有一個非常大的改變。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我是擔心啦，像我們要提升綠能，國發會主委也在說，全世界加入RE100的有超過400家企業，臺灣也有19家，不管是蘋果、Google或台積，綠電的需求會越來越高，可是你如果從太陽能光電來看的話，臺灣的面積確實比較小，我們真的小，可以用的土地很多都已經做了規劃，良田你也不可能做太陽能，你說離岸風電這部分確實也有在用，它可以繼續發展，但那也有衝擊環境的問題，建置費用也高，接下來就整個替代能源的部分來看，其實那個部分也不是綠電，也有剛剛我提到的那些能源怎麼樣去加強儲備的問題，你說幾接、幾接，到最後也會衝擊到環境，甚至會有政治上抗爭的問題，所以這是一個大哉問，這是全國各個政黨都要去面對的。國民黨的講法是，要政府重啟核電，他們覺得好像重啟核電是試了之後就叫做重啟，他們不知道一個發電廠除役之後要重啟要幾年，部長，25年嘛！最快要幾年？"],["郭部長智輝：要重啟的話，差不多要3.5到5年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：3.5到5年，真的還可以重用？真的這麼快嗎？你們給我的數據倒不是這樣，你認為一座核電廠重啟真的3到5年就可以？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，如果要重啟，核一、核二、核四都廢掉了，只有核三，但是核三明年也要除役，萬一重啟，你們心中的想像會是在哪裡？萬一真的沒辦法了，要重新再回頭去擁抱核能了，你們心目中想像的會在北部還是南部？先說好哦！不要再來南部了，我們已經講了好幾年了。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我的建議是這樣，就是現在的區域經濟學開始被討論，我們民主聯盟國家可以互相支援，特別是能源的部分，可以看得到，現在有很多綠色的能源，特別是在歐洲，非常多國跟國之間大家互相支援。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是臺灣就那麼小啊！你只有核一、核二、核三、核四啊。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思就是說……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你如果要重啟，你去選別的地方，不要選屏東，可以嗎？不過，這是一個大問題啦，我期待我剛剛提到的……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個非常嚴肅的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，整個問題，我是覺得不管是國民黨也好，不管是民進黨也好，提出這樣一個問題的人，其實都是擔心臺灣經濟未來的發展，他們講能源配比，跟你講能源政策錯誤，他是在誇獎你們啦，說你們很厲害，你們未來很會發展經濟，經濟會很好，民進黨會繼續執政啦，所以會缺電啦！微言大意幾乎是這樣子。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那是我講的啦，問題就是我們自己也要拿出我們的方法來啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然，到時候要怎麼辦？好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長和部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第20號的林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34f9200a829e4bb4d16e9140c2b1893b4a2c0f7b3725aa285575b8ca2af51068035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"16:32:27 - 16:47:45","影片長度":"00:15:18","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T16:32:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T16:47:45+08:00","duration":918,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":4.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.16534375,"end":5.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.813468750000002,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.549093750000004,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.43034375,"end":41.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.38721875,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.711593750000006,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.580343750000004,"end":49.086593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.23846875,"end":52.900343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.49096875,"end":55.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.549718750000004,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.304718750000006,"end":59.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.00471875,"end":61.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.455968750000004,"end":62.99159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.430343750000006,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.72534375000001,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.65096875,"end":92.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.55346875000001,"end":86.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.74284375,"end":94.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.45096875,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.10471875,"end":106.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.08596875,"end":160.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.02784375000002,"end":128.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.47846875000002,"end":163.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.29221875000002,"end":176.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.77971875,"end":178.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.03284375,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.56409375,"end":181.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.75784375,"end":229.10909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.49534375000002,"end":189.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.56471875000003,"end":230.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.65721875000003,"end":236.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.60159375,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.48659375000003,"end":248.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.34221875000003,"end":250.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.92846875,"end":265.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.85909375,"end":276.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.96659375,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.58096875,"end":292.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.89659375,"end":300.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.26284375,"end":358.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.94534375,"end":359.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.58221875000004,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.48909375,"end":363.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.50159375000004,"end":364.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.96971875,"end":365.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.13409375000003,"end":366.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.39534375000005,"end":369.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.44596875,"end":371.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.25159375000004,"end":373.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.17096875000004,"end":377.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.94659375000003,"end":382.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.95034375,"end":388.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.21534375000005,"end":389.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.52284375000005,"end":406.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.42096875000004,"end":397.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.58034375000005,"end":400.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.27159375,"end":404.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.67659375000005,"end":412.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.08909375,"end":416.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.43034375,"end":415.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.22346875000005,"end":425.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.11221875,"end":429.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.58034375000005,"end":431.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.69346875,"end":434.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.58346875,"end":442.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.75096875,"end":443.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.67034375000003,"end":447.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.96096875,"end":448.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.48409375000006,"end":466.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.24909375000004,"end":485.57534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.74409375000005,"end":567.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.0265937500001,"end":579.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.7040937500001,"end":585.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.01534375,"end":595.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.6297187499999,"end":596.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.49034375,"end":607.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.53096875,"end":608.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.4084687500001,"end":611.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.15471875,"end":619.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.0859687500001,"end":628.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.0772187499999,"end":638.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.48034375,"end":644.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.45346875,"end":653.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.88659375,"end":702.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.3134687500001,"end":703.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.38096875,"end":707.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.8190937500001,"end":715.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.56534375,"end":712.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.4722187500001,"end":729.6553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.9697187500001,"end":716.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.1828437500001,"end":735.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":733.80659375,"end":750.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.87659375,"end":744.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.89346875,"end":745.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.50034375,"end":760.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.40659375,"end":756.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":757.7522187500001,"end":772.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.03721875,"end":775.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.46284375,"end":774.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.0490937500001,"end":775.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.0828437499999,"end":799.5515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.14221875,"end":813.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.50721875,"end":820.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":820.4597187500001,"end":821.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.5734687500001,"end":823.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.35784375,"end":825.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.99471875,"end":831.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.08659375,"end":832.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.0990937500001,"end":833.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.2678437500001,"end":835.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":836.13659375,"end":840.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":841.21596875,"end":841.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.34659375,"end":848.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.3034687500001,"end":854.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":854.5303437500002,"end":857.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":857.4328437500001,"end":857.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":858.12471875,"end":900.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.1772187500001,"end":909.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":907.73721875,"end":916.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":916.1072187500001,"end":917.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":917.96346875,"end":918.40221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.493,"end":5.577,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長。"},{"start":15.044,"end":34.702,"text":"薛文豪院長好我想今天您的備詢大概很多委員都對於您前幾天接受Bloomberg的專訪提到您對新核能政策有採取非常開放的態度請問我可不可以解讀成說您對於調整非核家園的政策有這個規劃"},{"start":36.482,"end":65.035,"text":"非核家園目前在我們環境基本法23條但是我們是朝非核家園前進的那非核家園的定義如果在未來整個世界上的潮流跟認為研究認為所謂核能已經不是我們過去所謂的危險而且高核廢料的這個核能的話或許我們那個時候再調整是針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論在目前為止我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務"},{"start":66.019,"end":84.299,"text":"那剛剛院長講到專照環境基本法就是這個依法來行政但是事實上我們現在這個最近的這個禁法補償條例我們也經這個立法院也通過之後也是一個法律案可是行政院也沒有遵守因為他沒有依照預算法93條"},{"start":85.62,"end":96.883,"text":"在增加稅數的時候要來跟行政院爭詢而且要指出資金的來源政府沒有履行這樣的程序我就是一致的標準我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後可以來進行我們也很高興聽到您對於針對核能的政策有這樣子的一個非常開放的態度"},{"start":107.27,"end":127.546,"text":"不過,因為我們知道這個所謂的新核能的技術,大概早上有人問過您,就是針對SMR的這個部分來去做探討。不過就我的了解,一些核能專家也提到說,這個部分,大概最快大概也需要10年的時間。那10年的時間,到時候賴清德也不是總統了,您也不會是院長。"},{"start":128.286,"end":128.426,"text":"主席"},{"start":151.162,"end":176.141,"text":"委員會召開能源轉型國事會議,邀請草野各黨一起共同來討論,然後凝聚共識。 院長您覺得呢?我們可以非常積極的、廣泛的跟各界來做溝通。那未來的能源技術當然不知道,未來的新的核能技術不知道。就誠如現在我們看河山廠的問題一樣,我們現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展,那也是五年以後的事情。"},{"start":176.823,"end":192.723,"text":"院長,我想藉口,是,是,我覺得就是可,要,就是有所作為的話其實是可以很快啦,當然也可以拖很久,就看這個部分我們有沒有進行很長的進行啦,那我們現在先,接下來再請教院長一下,我們看一下,就是,呃,"},{"start":193.644,"end":222.694,"text":"蔡政府的時候是您2025的能源配比大概是燃氣50%燃煤30%綠能20%那現在賴政府的話在2030調整為綠能30%降低燃煤到20%那這樣子的這個理想我們看起來是非常的遠大你可以看到我們的這個表但是可能會造成這個缺電跟電價高漲的一個問題那如果說針對剛剛院長講的對於新核能技術是採取的開放的態度的話"},{"start":223.354,"end":239.388,"text":"我們可以看到國發會的2050年的淨零轉型的計畫中的能源轉型你可以看到第三項前瞻能源的部分並沒有提到核能那所以說這個部分是算是假議題還是說院長可以請國發會要修正這樣這個計畫"},{"start":243.527,"end":243.547,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":268.247,"end":293.85,"text":"這幾天院長有這樣子一個持非常開放的態度所以國發會這邊是不是有可以把這個我們2050的淨零轉型的這個計畫能夠做一個調整跟委員報告我們現在還是以多元綠能作為我們祖州的發展方向最重要的原因是R100的廠商需要的是再生能源所以我們必須盡快補足再生能源給半導體各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等等這種產業使用"},{"start":295.151,"end":295.171,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":313.826,"end":331.119,"text":"像瑞士他已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律那將核電廠可以無限制的營運許可權那日本的前手下岸田文雄在2021年也有提在第6次的能源基本計劃也有提到希望在2030年日本核能發電佔比都可以達到20%到22%"},{"start":333.42,"end":333.44,"text":"兩位"},{"start":360.646,"end":389.337,"text":"重點跟委員報告第一個若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電現在很多國家都是把核電現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源如果有一天核電的發展它已經沒有安全顧慮也沒有核廢料的處理了全世界都通認它就是綠電那國家當然必須有哪一個政策是全世界都公認全世界都通過的現在對再生能源綠電大家有一定的標準"},{"start":389.557,"end":390.018,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":408.86,"end":409.2,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":431.853,"end":443.555,"text":"還有國內的法律現在如此所以這國內的法律要修正的話當然我們一定可以來配合來修正那也就覺得立法院行政院如果有這樣子的一個想法其實也可以提出說法行政院就是依法行政"},{"start":444.704,"end":465.032,"text":"依照程序通過的法律,行政院一定遵守。好,針對我想我們一定這個很樂意的看到行政院遵守這樣的一個法令那當然院長我想剛剛有提到的就是這個核能我們的這個綠電的問題那我們先來看一下我們整理了出來這個表格就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度"},{"start":467.313,"end":491.973,"text":"那我們可以看到這是過去在100到103年的400億度大概需要的費用大概差不多300億左右那您可以看一下我們現在以112年來看我們再生能源的這個每度的購電費用是5.5元那以我們的112年度的核能來說的話它每一個每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元"},{"start":493.294,"end":521.112,"text":"也就是再生能源每度購電的費用大概是核能發電的5倍所以如果要彌補這個核能400億度的這個缺口的話我們來看以成本來計算的話核能400億度電大概是成本是440億元再生能源400億度電大概成本大概高達要2200億元那天然氣如果要400億度電的話成本大概是1676億元也就是說非核家園之後"},{"start":521.892,"end":545.924,"text":"如果都要用再生能源來彌補400億度電的話臺電一年要多花1760億元若用天然氣的彌補的話要多花1236億元這也是造成臺頓虧損連連的主因之一所以臺電到今年8月已經累積虧損4226億了所以因為這樣子的關係所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了30幾%"},{"start":547.265,"end":547.345,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":568.129,"end":595.495,"text":"我們對於這個經濟部對我們全國用電的預測就是119年我國的用電的度數會比113年增加515億度您可以看到我們119年就是所謂的2030大概會達到3343億度那請問一下目前推動的再生能源的規劃是不是可以彌補河一、河二、河三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年的電力增長的需求"},{"start":597.574,"end":619.496,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們跟這個經濟部跟台電有開過會很確定這個整個電力他們目前的整體的規劃是有考慮到核電的停機所以不會有太大問題那我也趁機跟委員報告一下核電廠為什麼電價這麼便宜是因為他的建廠的折舊攤提一十五年攤提已經攤提完成"},{"start":620.177,"end":622.878,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":649.412,"end":665.036,"text":"當然剛剛您提到說目前大概要供電這個穩定的供電供電原則上沒問題嗎好如果我們假設這是真實的我們可以看一下經濟部預估我們2030年臺灣的這個需要的用電就是剛講的119年大概需要3343億度電如果以2030年來說我們當時的規劃的配比是30%的綠電"},{"start":675.299,"end":698.775,"text":"所以說大概需要1000億度電那扣除台電自發的換算下來需要另外再購買800到900億度電那如果以剛剛那個每度5.5的平均計算的價格來看購電的費用會高達4400億到5000億元院長這是一個大錢坑啊就算我們可以做到穩定供電綠能也真的可以做到可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補所以難怪台電會虧損連連啊"},{"start":704.003,"end":729.222,"text":"委員長這個還要跟委員詳細的計算喔委員計算的這個購電的成本跟他實際支出的這個成本現在來算以後的數字我剛剛是以112年台電提供的預算跟決算書這邊來的這個資料我剛表議有特別提到這是我們在是台電提供的預算那當然這個之後可以請這個是不是經濟部這邊來的也能夠來跟我們做一些探討"},{"start":729.702,"end":755.022,"text":"發電的發電成本也是逐年在下降所以這個計算還要再精細我們只能說到2030年以前即使好讓你下降一半也要多花個兩三千億這是跟核電比較起來所以我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多的納稅的血汗錢事實上就是因為這樣子的一個能源政策我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥報告我們心裡都清楚核廢料的處理核後端的處理是金額相當大的"},{"start":755.282,"end":755.382,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":775.189,"end":798.878,"text":"最後我想請教一下就是院長就是因為事實上賴清德總統曾經說臺灣希望推動為人工智慧指導嘛但是我們都知道這個AI上非常的耗電所以台電的前臺積電的前董事長劉德英也表示臺積電在2024年的用電量目前大概是在8%左右未來到2030年可能會達到12%所以請問一下這個"},{"start":800.182,"end":815.831,"text":"人工智慧之島賴總統的這個人工智慧之島要如何在缺電的風險下達成那這樣的一個人員配比會導致高電價請問我們人民跟企業要怎麼來因應跟我們報告我們不只一次請台電"},{"start":816.621,"end":833.534,"text":"就未來的人工智慧跟半導體所需要的快速的用電增加的用電再重新的核算那麼幾次核算下來臺電的數字幾乎也都是一樣認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬度但是我們可以彌補的有900萬院長請問臺電有告訴您說這樣要多花多少錢嗎"},{"start":841.437,"end":856.797,"text":"這個就是將早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的一個路徑必須做財務的分析那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析順便要把台電的財務本體質要把它健全起來"},{"start":857.498,"end":882.41,"text":"院長因為現在我們在臺灣我們在國際競爭市場面對日本韓國他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠或重啟核電廠或是延益核電廠所以針對這個部分也是希望院長您要莫忘世上苦人多我們現在的民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策讓我們很多已經造成高電價高碳排人民的健康"},{"start":883.19,"end":883.471,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":905.393,"end":905.413,"text":"韓國瑜議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":631,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（16時32分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：院長好。在今天備詢中，很多委員都提到您前幾天接受Bloomberg專訪，您提到對新核能政策採取非常開放的態度，請問我可不可以解讀成，您對於調整非核家園的政策有規劃？"],["卓院長榮泰：非核家園目前規定在環境基本法第二十三條，所以我們是朝非核家園前進的。至於非核家園的定義，如果在未來整個世界上的潮流與研究認為，所謂核能已經不是過去危險且高核廢料的核能的話，或許我們那個時候再調整，針對以後新的核能技術可以做新的討論。但到目前為止，我們是遵照環境基本法來執行我們的任務。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛院長講到遵照環境基本法規定，也就是依法行政，但像禁伐補償條例是經立法院通過的，也是一個法律案，可是行政院也沒有遵守啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他們沒有依照預算法第九十三條規定，在增加歲出時要跟行政院徵詢，而且要指出資金來源，這部分並沒有履行這樣的程序。"],["許委員宇甄：對這部分希望能有一致的標準……"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是一致的標準，我們希望能夠履行這樣一致的標準之後，可以來提議。"],["許委員宇甄：請教院長，其實我們也很高興聽到您針對核能政策能有這樣非常開放的態度。至於所謂新核能技術，早上有人問過，您是針對SMR這部分來探討。就我的了解，一些核能專家也提到，這部分最快大概也需要十年時間，十年時間，到時候賴清德也不是總統了，您也不會是院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，您的政治生命是有限的，但我們的民生經濟還有產業發展是等不起十年時間的！針對這部分，既然您提到希望能夠有核安、核廢料處理及共識的問題，希望能達到這三項目標，我之前也有建議過，是不是能夠召開能源轉型的國是會議，邀請朝野各黨，大家一起共同討論、凝聚共識，院長覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以非常積極地、廣泛地跟各界溝通，但未來的能源趨勢當然不知道，新的核能源技術不知道，誠如現在我們看核三廠的問題一樣，現在就算要讓它有一個新的發展，那也是5年以後的事情，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我想這個是……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以有一句話是未來的核能解決不了今天的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：是，我覺得要有所作為的話，其實可以很快，當然也可以拖很久，就要看這個部分我們有沒有這樣的決心。"],["卓院長榮泰：核管法就是規定要5年啊！"],["許委員宇甄：接下來再請教院長，我們看一下，蔡政府時期提出2025年的能源配比是燃氣50%、燃煤30%、綠能20%，現在賴政府調整為2030年的綠能是30%，降低燃煤到20%……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣的理想看起來非常遠大，您可以看到螢幕上的這個表，但是可能也會造成缺電跟電價高漲的問題。如果是剛剛院長所講的，對於新核能技術採取開放態度的話，我們可以看到國發會2050年淨零轉型計畫中的能源轉型，在第三項前瞻能源的部分，並沒有提到核能，所以這個部分算是假議題，還是院長可以請國發會要修正這樣的計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是我們現在，這個指的有沒有核能是針對現在傳統的核能，未來新的核能技術，也許我們賦予它的是另外一種新時代的能源發展，那個時候我們就必須要機動靈活重新來調整也不一定，就端看那個技術有沒有成熟……"],["許委員宇甄：因為我們現在規劃的是2050年的淨零轉型計畫，既然這幾天院長持非常開放的態度，國發會這邊是不是可以把2050淨零轉型計畫調整？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們現在還是以多元綠能作為主軸的發展方向，最重要的原因是RE100的廠商需要的是再生能源，所以我們必須儘快補足再生能源給半導體、各種科技產業跟一般的紡織等產業使用，它的急迫性是非常高的，所以我們還是以再生能源、多元綠能為主。"],["許委員宇甄：既然剛剛有提到要以再生能源為主，不過我們知道瑞士、日本、英國也曾經想要廢核，但是為了2050淨零碳排，他們都已經更改他們的非核政策了，瑞士已經在今年9月廢除漸進廢核的法律，讓核電廠有無限制的營運許可權；日本前首相岸田文雄在2021年第6次能源基本計畫也有提到，希望在2030年日本核能發電占比可以達到20%到22%。","另外，剛剛也有提到，我們在2018年有一個以核養綠的公投，也通過了要用以核養綠的方式，現在既然瑞士、日本都已經知錯能改，也與時俱進的要改變他們的非核跟廢核政策，請問院長，我們有沒有可能跟進，把核能也納入新能源政策的發電配比？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個重點跟委員報告，第一個，若是有一天全世界通認核電就是綠電，如果這個共識……"],["許委員宇甄：現在很多國家都是把核電當綠電。"],["卓院長榮泰：NO！現在大家通認核電是乾淨能源，如果有一天核電的發展已經沒有安全顧慮，也沒有核廢料處理的問題，全世界都通認它就是綠電，那我們國家當然必須……"],["許委員宇甄：請問有哪一個政策是全世界都公認、全世界都通過的？請您告訴我，目前有哪一個政策？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在對於再生能源、綠電，大家是有一定的標準啊！"],["許委員宇甄：再生能源、綠電有一定標準，但是也不可能是全世界都認證通過啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：幾乎啦！所以這是……"],["許委員宇甄：所以我是覺得這個標準有點高啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是共識啦！"],["許委員宇甄：但是我想我們目的都一樣，希望臺灣能夠不缺電，也希望電價不要高漲，我想這是大家共同的目標。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要說的是，未來如果核電就是綠電，我們當然會敞開雙手，而且積極的來處理，再來……"],["許委員宇甄：所以院長是保持開放態度嗎？核電如果未來可以是綠電的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，而且現在在國內，依照核管法，我們必須在明年5月將核三廠2號機除役，除非現在法令有任何變更，我們才可以做任何其他的動作……"],["許委員宇甄：就是法律只要變更的話，就可以做這樣的動作就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在都沒有這個前提，這個前提都不在……"],["許委員宇甄：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在核電不是綠電，還有國內法令現在是如此，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：其實國內的法律要修正的話，當然我們一定可以配合來修正，行政院如果有這樣的想法，也可以提出修法啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院就是依法行政，依照程序通過的法律，行政院一定遵守。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我想我們一定很樂意看到行政院遵守這樣一個法令。院長，剛剛有提到綠電的問題，我們先來看一下，我們整理出來的這個表格，就是核一、核二、核三廠一年的發電度數大概是400億度，我們可以看到，過去在100到103年的400億度，需要的費用大概差不多300億左右，那您可以看一下，以112年來看，再生能源每度的購電費用大概是5.5元，以112年度的核能來說的話，每一度電的購電成本大概是1.1元，也就是再生能源每度購電費用大概是核能發電的5倍。如果要彌補核能發電的400億度缺口，以成本來計算的話，核能400億度電的成本大概是440億元；再生能源400億度電的成本大概高達2,200億元；天然氣如果要400億度電的話，成本大概是1,676億元。","也就是非核家園之後，如果都要用再生能源來彌補400億度電的話，台電一年要多花1,760億元，若用天然氣彌補的話，要多花1,236億元，這也是造成台電虧損連連的主因之一，所以台電到今年8月已經累積虧損4,226億了。因為這樣子的關係，所以除了造成我們的民生用電已經漲了三十幾%，我們的產業用電也漲了六十幾%，而且今年113年還要追加預算1,000億給台電，明年還要撥補1,000億給台電。如果民進黨的能源政策已經浪費了民眾這麼多的錢，然後明年還要我們追加2,000億的話，其實這個部分我們真的無法支持。","請院長再繼續看下一個，根據經濟部對於全國用電的預測，119年我國用電度數會比113年增加515億度。您可以看到在119年，也就是2030年，我國的用電大概會達到3,343億度，請問一下，目前推動的再生能源的規劃，是不是可以彌補核一、核二、核三廠停機的電力損失跟未來6年用電增長的需求？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們跟經濟部及台電有就這部分開過會，很確定他們目前針對電力的整體規劃，是有考慮到核電的停機，所以不會有太大的問題。我也趁機跟委員報告一下，為什麼核電的電價成本這麼便宜？因為核電廠建廠的折舊攤提依15年攤提，已經攤提完成，綠電還在折舊攤提的過程中。第二個事情是，核後端基金有4,000億並沒有被算到這裡面……"],["許委員宇甄：既然已經攤提完成，現在是它最便宜的時候，那為什麼我們不繼續使用？就是又最便宜，然後事實上現在世界很多國家也都公認，核電就是綠電，事實上我覺得這個部分，最困難的其實已經過了……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟您報告，我算過，核電如果建一個新廠，每度電大概也要3塊錢，但是再考慮核後端的處理費用，它應該會到4塊……"],["許委員宇甄：我們現在不用再建一個新廠，我們現在就有，只要延役就可以了。當然剛剛您提到，目前要穩定的供電，原則上沒問題。好，如果我們假設這是真實的，我們可以看一下，經濟部預估2030年臺灣需要的用電，就是剛剛講的，119年大概需要3,343億度電，如果以2030年來說，我們規劃當時的配比是30%的綠電，所以大概需要1,000億度電，扣除台電自發的，換算下來需要另外再購買800億到900億度電。如果以剛剛講的平均每度5.5元的價格來計算的話，購電的費用會高達4,400億到5,000億元。","院長，這是一個大錢坑，就算我們可以做到穩定供電，綠能也真的可以做到，可是要多花這麼多的錢來彌補，難怪台電會虧損連連。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這個還要更詳細的計算，委員計算的購電的成本跟實際支出的成本，以現在來算以後的數字，我們還要再詳細的計算……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛是以112年台電所提供的預算跟決算書的資料為基準，我剛剛的表一有特別提到，這是台電提供的預算，當然之後是不是請經濟部也能夠來跟我們做一些探討？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們綠電的發電成本也是逐年在下降，所以這部分還要再精算，我們只能說到2030年……"],["許委員宇甄：好，即使讓你下降一半，也要多花個兩、三千億，這是跟核電比較起來，所以，我覺得這個部分要多花人民這麼多納稅的血汗錢，事實上就是因為這樣的能源政策，我覺得真的是非常非常的不妥。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們心裡都清楚，核廢料的處理、核後端的處理金額是相當大的，這個大家不能視而不見，我們願意去面對它，但是不要視而不見。"],["許委員宇甄：那核廢料的處理是不是也是政府該負起的責任？我們也可以看，現在全世界各個國家都在使用核能，那我們也去跟他們取經，看他們如何處理核廢料，我覺得這個一定有辦法，事在人為啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：光是放乾式貯存槽的地方都產生非常大的阻礙啊！"],["許委員宇甄：最後，我想請教一下院長，事實上，賴清德總統曾經說希望推動臺灣成為人工智慧之島，但是我們都知道AI是非常的耗電，台積電的前董事長劉德音也表示，台積電在2024年的用電量大概是8%左右，未來到2030年可能會達到12%，所以請問一下賴總統講的這個人工智慧之島要如何在缺電的風險下達成？像這樣的能源配比會導致高電價，請問人民跟企業要怎麼來因應？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們不只一次請台電就未來人工智慧跟半導體所需要快速的用電、增加的用電再重新的核算，那麼幾次核算下來，台電的數字幾乎也都是一樣，認為我們到2030年之前還需要720萬瓩，但是我們可以彌補的有900萬瓩。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，請問台電有告訴您這樣要多花多少錢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：早上有委員提到未來我們要達到這樣的路徑，必須做財務的分析，那下一步我們就是在這個路徑底下去做財務的分析，順便要把台電財務的體質健全起來。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，因為現在我們在國際競爭市場面對日本、韓國，他們都已經相繼宣告要繼續興建新核能電廠、重啟核電廠或是延役核電廠，所以針對這個部分希望院長莫忘世上苦人多，現在民進黨這個錯誤的能源政策已經造成高電價、高碳排，讓人民的健康受損，還有北部缺電，我想不管是民生經濟、半導體產業、AI產業都受到影響，目前看起來唯一得利的就只有光電業、光電集團，所以請院長能夠苦民所苦，儘速的調整這個錯誤的能源政策，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會讓我們的能源政策健全發展，但是絕對不是一個錯誤，否則現在世界的大廠也不會紛紛要到臺灣來，因為臺灣有足夠的電供應給他們。"],["許委員宇甄：我想目前既然世界各地都在繼續使用核電，代表我們真的要好好的考慮，要將核電納入我們的能源配比，好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第19號莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34a4cf2541abebf67e6e9140c2b1893b4a2c0f7b3725aa2855256103802437d2e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"16:16:26 - 16:32:04","影片長度":"00:15:38","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T16:16:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T16:32:04+08:00","duration":938,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.24909375,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.282218750000002,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.36909375,"end":25.782218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.32221875,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.68409375,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.61596875,"end":41.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.729093750000004,"end":42.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.94409375,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.16721875,"end":46.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.82534375,"end":46.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.213468750000004,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.11596875,"end":51.854093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.32659375,"end":53.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.09846875,"end":56.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.31784375,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.22471875,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.713468750000004,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.797843750000006,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.96659375,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.63721875,"end":64.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.47221875000001,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.65346875,"end":73.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.98596875,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.46221875,"end":80.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.27596875,"end":79.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.86659375,"end":79.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.40659375,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.88159375000001,"end":95.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.15096875,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.04534375,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.09159375,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.71471875,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.28846875,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.87409375,"end":115.64159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.41784375,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.39221875000001,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.09159375,"end":129.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.73221875000002,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.42784375000002,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.57971875,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.34284375000001,"end":138.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.18221875,"end":142.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.21534375000002,"end":150.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.86409375000002,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.49221875,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.28096875,"end":156.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.07346875000002,"end":168.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":163.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.78159375,"end":178.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.36159375,"end":180.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.28971875000002,"end":185.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.04471875000002,"end":182.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.73221875000002,"end":190.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.40221875,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.85659375,"end":201.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.83909375000002,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.56471875000003,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.23409375,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.66784375,"end":219.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.01346875000002,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.89471875,"end":233.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.91846875000002,"end":245.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.96721875000003,"end":267.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.61096875000004,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.64471875000004,"end":259.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.61846875000003,"end":276.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.96659375,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.28284375000004,"end":278.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.29971875,"end":280.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.33346875,"end":283.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.41721875,"end":313.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.66971875,"end":314.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.72034375000004,"end":314.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.96909375,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.05346875000004,"end":326.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":336.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.14284375,"end":341.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.88471875000005,"end":353.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.89534375,"end":366.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.89784375000005,"end":368.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.94409375000004,"end":372.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.07034375,"end":370.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.65221875000003,"end":381.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.01346875,"end":391.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.37471875,"end":394.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.49659375000005,"end":400.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.58846875,"end":402.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.10721875,"end":419.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.81784375,"end":422.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.31096875000003,"end":426.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.54659375,"end":428.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.06096875000003,"end":433.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.37284375,"end":432.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.30096875000004,"end":432.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.95471875000004,"end":440.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.72159375,"end":449.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.37846875,"end":467.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.45159375000003,"end":470.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.88971875000004,"end":476.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.67784375,"end":503.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.74534375,"end":478.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.44096875,"end":482.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.28659375,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.24346875000003,"end":511.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.27159375,"end":517.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.78534375,"end":523.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.9153437500001,"end":529.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.6653437500001,"end":531.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.72846875,"end":533.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.2978437500001,"end":537.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.84534375,"end":540.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.26284375,"end":544.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.4184687500001,"end":547.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.1228437500001,"end":552.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.01284375,"end":548.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.3203437500001,"end":559.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.6228437500001,"end":561.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.49596875,"end":564.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.76971875,"end":568.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.42346875,"end":572.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.4140937500001,"end":577.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.27409375,"end":579.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.8772187500001,"end":581.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.07096875,"end":581.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.9653437500001,"end":583.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.8215937500001,"end":583.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.9734687499999,"end":585.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.13784375,"end":585.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.7622187500001,"end":585.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.0659687500001,"end":588.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.1672187500001,"end":589.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.4409687500001,"end":600.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.35971875,"end":596.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.7390937499999,"end":606.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.7209687500001,"end":616.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.92221875,"end":626.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.04846875,"end":618.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.42784375,"end":621.6553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.3215937500001,"end":638.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.9522187499999,"end":641.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.0278437500001,"end":654.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.9497187500001,"end":655.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.8272187499999,"end":660.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.0247187500001,"end":673.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.7665937500001,"end":670.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.2253437500001,"end":676.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.7778437500001,"end":678.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.5790937500001,"end":678.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.2878437500001,"end":678.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":678.54096875,"end":678.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.62534375,"end":685.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.5947187500001,"end":722.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.63096875,"end":724.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.52534375,"end":726.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.58409375,"end":737.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.0422187500001,"end":742.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.93596875,"end":748.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.8928437500001,"end":749.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.9853437500001,"end":757.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.20471875,"end":752.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.15784375,"end":755.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.4865937500001,"end":775.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.90346875,"end":765.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.69034375,"end":777.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":777.24284375,"end":782.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.6259687500001,"end":790.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.3547187500001,"end":796.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.2903437500001,"end":797.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.34096875,"end":797.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.9990937500002,"end":803.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.26409375,"end":805.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.64346875,"end":808.8328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.74471875,"end":806.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.88346875,"end":816.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":816.2240937500001,"end":820.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.5278437500001,"end":817.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.7553437500001,"end":821.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":820.4765937500001,"end":834.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.48034375,"end":824.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.46284375,"end":830.3484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.92221875,"end":830.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.0234687500001,"end":847.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.0165937500001,"end":850.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":850.95284375,"end":868.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":869.0090937500001,"end":871.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.5234687500001,"end":876.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.3503437500001,"end":874.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":875.0334687500001,"end":878.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":877.0247187500001,"end":878.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":878.9822187500001,"end":882.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":878.9990937500002,"end":880.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.68221875,"end":884.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.3528437500001,"end":885.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":885.6140937500002,"end":893.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":893.4778437500001,"end":902.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":903.7040937500001,"end":905.0203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":905.4084687500001,"end":908.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":905.62784375,"end":908.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.6484687500001,"end":923.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":924.46034375,"end":924.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":924.9665937500001,"end":925.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.13534375,"end":925.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":925.20284375,"end":925.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.4897187500001,"end":925.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":925.5234687500001,"end":925.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.55721875,"end":925.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.99596875,"end":927.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":927.73409375,"end":929.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":929.2022187500002,"end":929.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":934.9397187500001,"end":938.68596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.271,"end":35.875,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們卓院長跟我們的郭部長麻煩請卓院長經濟部長備詢廖委員好院長部長辛苦了院長你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到你對於這個新的核能喔類似這個核融合的技術的態度非常的開放"},{"start":36.673,"end":44.634,"text":"那我想要請問目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何何時可以相轉那台灣在未來三年內有沒有可能實現"},{"start":46.435,"end":71.32,"text":"第一點對新的核能技術採開放的態度我認為你我都一樣我想很多人也都是如此對所以我的問題是說掌握程度如何我們現在倒沒有針對是像說的核融合這個單項我對它有特別的這個研究掌握因為未來的核能的新核能技術還有很多的可能性所以新核能科技可以說無法確定在短期內在台灣實現商轉我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的觀察的年"},{"start":75.521,"end":91.373,"text":"我知道所以我意思就是說不能確定嘛對不對你現在觀察因為你也沒有掌控嘛好院長但是我想喔新核能像你剛說的短期內如果能夠商轉我們當然都可以願意擁抱這種新的科技啊新的技術啊因為目前看起來其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是"},{"start":91.933,"end":92.093,"text":"。（10月29日（"},{"start":107.441,"end":136.147,"text":"你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說台灣內部對核能安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論我想請問什麼樣是要做高度共識比如說當年以核養綠公投當年同意票是589萬票通過這樣算不算高度共識然後呢在媒體民調也有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮六成支持發展核能請問這樣算不算是高度共識報告委員當年公投那是一個非常"},{"start":137.383,"end":159.942,"text":"高政治性的這個決定所以我們在公投的之後我們也依照公投所呈現的內容把2025年飛河家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持但是回到的是環境基本法所以我想要說的就是其實這個票數很多甚至高於我們總統當選的558萬票所以我們現在就是在所以這樣子如果說這樣子不算是高度共識的話這個是有啊"},{"start":161.303,"end":176.836,"text":"我們就沒有在2025年《非核家園》的堅持,是回到《環境基本法》23條,朝《非核家園》邁進這樣成。院長,其實前面問這個總之就是想要確定,除了新核能你才算是開放討論嘛,對不對?所以繼續發展現有核能這個公司基本上就是沒有這個選項,對不對?"},{"start":179.943,"end":201.069,"text":"繼續發展核能就是現有的就以現有的使用的這個公司我們現在主要的核三廠二號機在明年的五月他就要處理這是依照核管法的年限的規定沒關係沒關係院長或許你覺得國內的剛剛這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做國外的做法就是IEA國際能源總署的表格"},{"start":202.589,"end":216.702,"text":"可以從這個表看到2021年也是現在等於是2020年開始一直到2050年其實世界各國都有大幅增加核能開發的速度所以在我們核能的發展上面我們算是跟世界的這個國際算是背道而馳"},{"start":217.711,"end":244.291,"text":"那我想臺灣顯然沒有這樣的條件那連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度從世界排名下滑到19那總算力也下滑所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI的話推估2028年用電成長8倍我想要請問院長就是請問你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有這個設廠的餘裕嗎那現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的這些AI大廠來臺灣設廠嗎"},{"start":246.376,"end":258.822,"text":"報告委員這個部分的話我們現在是這個樣子就是我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源的電力我們都充分的有準備但是在這裡面我們要建設的這個電廠"},{"start":261.943,"end":291.283,"text":"希望委員也能夠支持部長謝謝因為時間有限其實我今天很認真在看你們的詢答其實你要表達就是這個用電充足無語今天早上院長也有別的委員問過院長就說這個用電無語是不是所以您覺得無語可是我覺得其實是說的我們有計畫要發出的那您聽我說一下我覺得是說的是頭頭是道但是其實黃仁勳都有表達說穩定供電是台灣最大挑戰"},{"start":292.023,"end":292.223,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":315.674,"end":337.159,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":337.239,"end":337.259,"text":"。 三"},{"start":355.046,"end":380.951,"text":"報告委員因為這個只能推估啦然後我們會單獨的去跟所有要做這個data center的公司我們會去訪問他、拜訪他然後他的需求所以我們不是用隨便算的也不是加減程度算出來的去年跟前年的預估就差了30%嘛所以這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠這就是大家擔心的地方好我繼續問下去喔"},{"start":382.071,"end":402.177,"text":"賴清德我們可以看一下117年以後每年都有大量的新增的燃氣燃氣的電源併網每年從這個130萬到470萬不等我也好奇的想要問一下院長這些上面寫的因為他並沒有明確指明要設在哪裡所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡上面應該有"},{"start":403.114,"end":403.594,"text":"在2030年之前我們比較主要的幾個大電廠"},{"start":423.313,"end":439.782,"text":"大潭、通宵、興達、台中、大嶺跟協和這6個電廠就會增加比較多的電出來坐落在哪裡都應該清楚的其實你上面寫的有很多我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定吧因為我要講一個就是包含"},{"start":441.564,"end":470.14,"text":"這不是大筆一揮就有所以包含台南剛剛我們線容界委員也在問了所以這一次連台南的綠營的立委跟議長也都反對蓋的這個電廠所以我要講的事情就是其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定我想要講的是因為充滿了不確定所以還是紙上談兵所以您剛剛的預估也會是說你預估這樣明年可能調整這就是一個很大的問題那另外我想請教一下我們部長和我們院長一台台中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少"},{"start":473.59,"end":476.723,"text":"一台機組的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少?"},{"start":477.871,"end":502.47,"text":"五十五萬千瓦那10部燃煤就是550萬千瓦那這就是中火的燃煤機組10部總容量好550萬那事實上台電即將要增設的4部燃氣機組就已經達到550萬千瓦所以再加上上一期計劃增設的260萬千瓦大概達到810萬千瓦在台中中火的部分平點頭你們很了解數字"},{"start":503.411,"end":528.557,"text":"所以換句話說其實4部燃氣機組就可以發電量就可以超過我們現在10部燃煤機組好對吧那換句話說其實一部燃氣機組就超過兩部燃煤機組的發電量那所以我覺得我們之前有在講所以我們應該是要不只要增一氣減一煤事實上應該是要增一氣減兩煤才對"},{"start":530.697,"end":543.964,"text":"對不對以這個發電量來講是這樣所以部長我想請問一下還有我們院長臺南的這個酒味電廠還要蓋嗎酒味電廠還要不要蓋我想我們的需求是存在的"},{"start":544.768,"end":547.41,"text":"對,還不確定嗎?剛剛您說有,剛剛金融界說,欸?"},{"start":547.41,"end":563.763,"text":"那九威,九威他們要不要繼續蓋下去?所以我想要問的就是說,為什麼台南供電自給率20%可以說蓋,不蓋就不蓋喔?那我們台中蓋了還不能拆,現在蓋了還不能拆,這是,是在覺得我們台中比較適寒嗎?"},{"start":564.807,"end":583.056,"text":"不是喔,九威那個是...九威那個不是正...我要針對這件事情喔,我要針對這件事情喔,你爭議器我剛剛已經算過容量的數據啊。我們台中的部分齁,我們會蓋這個天然氣的這個發電機...沒有,我就是問說,我們是不是爭議器要減量沒?對,我們要蓋氣拆沒啊?"},{"start":583.871,"end":605.846,"text":"在蓋棄材沒嗎?可以馬上拆嗎?可以保證嗎?可以保證我們嗎?現在還沒蓋啊蓋好之後你可以保證我們生一棄拆兩枚嗎?因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了嘛可不可以保證?因為我在為台中鄉親,台中的這個中部人民的肺發生這是您的假設啦齁但是我們會存留的部分他是不會運作但是是在備載"},{"start":606.747,"end":636.218,"text":"你確定不會運作你要確定的你不會說到時候電不夠電不充足的時候你出來就把它加大火力加大這個燃煤的基準來開始燒嗎所以你不敢保證對不對部長所以我只想問你不敢保證對不對他不可能說新的設備這麼經常壞嘛但是我總是要有部長我覺得啦剛剛也算過了啦至少就是要爭一氣拆兩煤啦那為什麼不拆喔我想這個上午你們在質詢的時候你們也有說過對台中人的感激與歉意啦"},{"start":636.678,"end":659.501,"text":"那有什麼補償措施嗎?就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣那能不能至少承諾說113年燃煤量可以低於1200萬噸114年可以低於1000萬噸115年可以低於800萬噸118年達到無煤台中可以嗎?可以保證嗎?報告委員,台中這個火力發電廠曾經是最大的一個火力發電廠"},{"start":661.015,"end":675.249,"text":"他就是啊那這麼多年以來他對台灣的產業發展也什麼時候有貢獻我重要的是這句話這麼多年以來他存在的問題我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決所以也不能承諾嘛對不對我們會承諾是會加速他的以氣泛煤"},{"start":678.812,"end":699.757,"text":"好院長總結來說政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比但是這個燃氣機組也越來越多但是呢如果增加的不夠我們台中中南部鄉親擔心的就是到時候你不夠的時候當然就是火力全開嘛排碳空污排好排滿嘛那當然你也說地熱可以期待可是也是不確定嘛所以"},{"start":700.277,"end":722.654,"text":"其實基本上就是這一切的不確定性非常多可是AI又需要乾淨的電力又要充足所以其實我也簡單附一個報告就是low carbon power的這個網站統計我們的低碳電力佔比17.5如果明年去除核電之後就會全球排名是110明年去除之後就會排到145也就是我們是全球的後段板在低碳電力的部分"},{"start":723.663,"end":749.519,"text":"所以我想這個部分真的是要加油我們真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策而且童子賢也說過產業在穩定的能源上面的需求就是必須要考量核能我是想不要再騙自己了真的要務實我們真的不希望持續你不拆不拆的情況之下未來電力不足你就是火力全開了台中人怎麼辦"},{"start":751.004,"end":771.351,"text":"好 院長我也想問喔 這是很務實的才能說不是很快的時間把他整個廠都拆掉 這就不務實了我們說啦 沒有 就是爭一氣啊 爭一氣拆兩枚啊我們現在增加4加2之後我整理了一下喔 台電官網的資料我們整理一下喔 台電官網的資料平均這個購電成本111年是2.33元112年是3.59元 到今年是3.06元"},{"start":777.313,"end":804.498,"text":"那也可以看到這個核電平均是一塊多那再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半風力也是增加所以核能拿掉之後其實購電成本會增加所以我想要請問的就是說結構不變的情況之下好像也只有繼續漲電價那一樣我想問有別的路嗎可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎可以嗎我們對未來的這個狀況是有充分的這個掌握但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎"},{"start":806.097,"end":819.981,"text":"長不長電價是審議委員會的權利可是我覺得你這個地方其實還蠻矛盾的有時候剛剛也有委員問你然後你就說好院長有交代你們會馬上去辦我們是把那個環境我們是把那個環境做起來但是你問我的是長不長電價我有跟你們報告是說"},{"start":826.122,"end":846.795,"text":"長不長電價是審議委員會決定我們只能努力把那個環境讓他能夠做決定不長電價數學題就是這樣所以我想要講的就是說這個錯誤的能源配比這能源政策基本上就是讓大家很不確定性掏空台灣甚至我之前也說過能源政策有點像在打假球"},{"start":848.469,"end":867.904,"text":"這個就是會讓人家覺得說欸這個我們民進黨錯誤能源政策為什麼在堅持啊是因為這個是民進黨的發財秘籍嗎要發國難財就要先有國難嘛所以錯誤能源政策導致的國難就從這裡面去發財所以過去雲爆光電不能不承認超市雞蛋高端閉案還有現在台鹽的綠能不是都這樣嗎"},{"start":869.405,"end":890.979,"text":"這就是錯誤能源政策從根爛起報告委員,如果您的回答是他們是有問題的來不好意思,我是把這些東西都列出來我來台言綠行有沒有問題,有嘛對不對,最近是不是新聞有上啊,對不對好,所以我要問一下院長喔這個農業,還有農業部長喔,現在檢調在偵辦超思案喔那也有用被告名義來約談我們的陳部長"},{"start":893.547,"end":901.238,"text":"那我想要請問一下草司案的關鍵人物這個秦雨喬的女兒吳于菲也就是秦雨喬的女兒她還在日本請問檢察官約談了嗎?通緝了嗎?"},{"start":904.452,"end":926.837,"text":"呃,這個檢察官...所以沒有嘛,對不對所以沒有嘛,對不對所以呢,對於同樣的案子這柯文哲的前秘書徐子瑜同樣在日本就北檢就火速地將他通緝請問院長,這樣雙標檢調的調查是不是說查到哪,就辦到哪啊,不約他回來就不用查了委員是覺得哪一件不對我說沒有這個雙標的部分,無與..."},{"start":935.443,"end":936.428,"text":"謝謝廖偉強委員質詢﹐謝謝卓院長﹐各部會首長的備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（16時16分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長、部長辛苦了。院長，你接受彭博新聞的專訪跟早上的詢答都有說到，你對於新的核能，類似核融合技術的態度非常的開放，我想要請問，目前政府對於我們新核能的科技掌握程度如何？何時可以商轉？臺灣在未來3年內有沒有可能實現？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一點，對新的核能技術採開放的態度，我認為你、我都一樣，我想很多人也都是如此，但是我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是我的問題是掌握程度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在倒是沒有針對委員說的核融合這個單項，對它沒有特別的研究掌握……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以沒有掌握，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為未來新核能技術，還有很多的可能性……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以新核能科技，無法確定短期內可以在臺灣實現商轉……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望2030年是一個關鍵的、觀察的年。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，所以我意思是不能確定，對不對？你現在觀察，因為你也沒有掌控嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，我想新核能像你剛剛說的，短期內如果能夠商轉，我們當然都願意擁抱這種新的科技、新的技術，因為目前看起來，其實它的核廢料跟核安全都是很好，就是表現是OK的，核廢料也少，核安全也OK。沒關係，但是在現實層面的不確定性，納入核電，我想只能夠採取現有的核分裂來討論，所以你在彭博新聞拜訪你的時候也說，臺灣內部對核能安全、核廢料達到共識就能夠公開討論。我想請問，什麼樣叫做高度共識？譬如當年以核養綠公投，同意票是589萬票通過，這樣算不算高度共識？然後媒體民調，也有84.5%的民眾有缺電的焦慮，六成支持發展核能，請問這樣算不算是高度共識？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，當年公投是非常高政治性的決定，所以我們在公投之後，也依照公投所呈現的內容，對2025年非核家園這個期限都不再做任何的堅持。但是回到環境基本法，我們朝……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想要說的就是，其實這個票數很多，甚至高於總統當選的558萬票！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們現在就是在……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這樣子如果不算是高度共識的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是有，所以我們就沒有在2025年非核家園來堅持，是回到環境基本法第二十三條……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：朝非核家園邁進。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，其實前面問這個，總之就是想要確定，除了新核能，你才算是開放討論，對不對？所以繼續發展現有核能這個共識，基本上就是沒有這個選項，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：繼續發展核能？"],["廖委員偉翔：就是現有的，就以現有核能使用的共識，基本上就是不認可……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在主要的核三廠二號機，在明年的5月就要除役，這是依照核管法年限的規定。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係，院長，或許你覺得剛剛國內的這些投票的結果或是民意調查不太重要，但是我們可以看看國外怎麼做、國外的作法。這是（IEA）國際能源總署的表格，可以從這個表看到2021年也就是現在，等於是2020年開始，一直到2050年，其實世界各國都大幅增加核能開發的速度，所以在核能發展上面，我們跟國際算是背道而馳，我想臺灣顯然沒有這樣的條件，連我們的預算中心也指出我國的AI準備度，世界排名下滑到19，總算力也下滑，所以未來如果要繼續發展所謂的AI，推估2028年用電成長8倍。我想要請問院長，你們真的有估算過未來3年或5年有設廠的餘裕嗎？現在的供電結構有辦法容納或吸引國內外的AI大廠來臺灣設廠嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分的話，我們現在是這個樣子，我們推論到2030年所需要的電力所需要的綠色能源電力，我們都有充分的準備……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長都充分準備……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要建設的電廠，希望委員也能夠支持，如果大家都能夠支持，我們就能夠達成電力的需求。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長謝謝，因為時間有限，其實我今天很認真看你們的詢答，你要表達的就是用電充足無虞。今天早上也有別的委員問過院長，院長說用電無虞，是不是？所以您覺得無虞嘛！","郭部長智輝；我們的意思是我們有計畫要發出的……"],["廖委員偉翔：其實我覺得……請您聽我說一下，我覺得說的頭頭是道啦！但是黃仁勳都表達了，穩定供電是臺灣最大挑戰，要發展AI就要有充足且乾淨的電。我想要講充足這件事情，我們可以翻開112年新公布的全國電力資源供需報告，在電力需求面，因應未來AI發展所需要的電力需求，未來平均每一年的平均用電成長率是2.8%，對吧？是不是？是嘛！好，可是這個數字很有趣，照去年的預估，去年你們預估成長率是2.03%，所以差了1年的預估就多了30%出來，這真的會讓人擔心你們這個數字到底是不是真的可以充足無虞？我想這也是全民的擔心。其實也不意外，畢竟AI發展真的進步很快，電力需求也會增加，只是我想要講的就是，因為看到這樣的預估變動，我們也很擔心，會不會明年預估的時候又突然增加了30%，會不會再度暴增？這樣子究竟我們未來有沒有做好充足的準備？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為這個只能推估，我們會單獨的去跟所有要做data center的公司，訪問他、拜訪他，了解他的需求……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們不是隨便就算了，也不是加減乘除算出來的。"],["廖委員偉翔：去年跟前年的預估就差了30%，這就是為什麼大家擔心所謂充足且乾淨的電夠不夠，這就是大家擔心的地方。","好，我繼續問下去，我們也可以看一下，117年以後，每年都有大量新增的燃氣電源併網，每年從130萬到470萬不等，我也好奇的想要問一下院長，因為上面寫的並沒有明確指名要設在哪裡，所以這些電廠到底要蓋在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：上面應該有。"],["廖委員偉翔：你看一下上面寫的，它並沒有確定要蓋在哪個地方，就只有寫新增燃氣電源，6月（180），新增燃氣電源6月（120），就是這樣寫嘛！所以我想要問的是，有確定要蓋在哪裡嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在2030年之前，比較主要的幾個大電廠就是大潭、通霄、興達、臺中、大林跟協和，主要是這6個電廠會增加比較多的電出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想要講的……"],["卓院長榮泰：座落在哪裡都應該清楚的。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實你上面寫的有很多，我想還是有很多地方還沒有完全確定。我要講的就是，這不是大筆一揮就有，包含臺南，剛剛謝龍介委員也在問，這一次連臺南的綠營立委跟議長也都反對蓋電廠。我要講的事情是，其實它還是充滿了很多的不確定，因為充滿了不確定，所以還是紙上談兵；您剛剛的預估也是這樣，然後明年可能調整，這就是一個很大的問題。","另外，我想請教一下部長和院長，一台臺中的燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：啊？"],["廖委員偉翔：臺中中火的一台燃煤機組的裝置容量大概是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：臺中……"],["廖委員偉翔：55萬瓩，10部燃煤就是550萬瓩，這就是中火的燃煤機組，10部總容量550萬瓩，事實上台電即將要增設4部燃氣機組……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：就已經達到550萬瓩，所以再加上上一期計畫增設的260萬瓩，大概達到810萬瓩，在臺中中火的部分。對，你頻頻點頭，你很了解數字，換句話說，其實4部燃氣機組的發電量就可以超過現在10部燃煤機組，對吧？換句話說，其實一部燃氣機組就超過二部燃煤機組的發電量，所以之前有在講，我們不只要增一氣、減一煤，事實上應該是要增一氣、減二煤才對，對不對？以這個發電量來講是這樣，所以我想請問一下院長和部長，臺南九崴電廠還要蓋嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：九崴電廠還要不要蓋一事，我想我們的需求是存在的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，還不確定，剛剛謝龍介委員也說……"],["郭部長智輝：需求是存在的，九崴要不要繼續蓋下去，我們不知道！"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想要問的是，為什麼臺南供電自給率20%，他們可以說不蓋就不蓋？那我們臺中現在蓋了還不能拆，這是覺得臺中比較「細漢」嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是喔！九崴那個不是政府……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，我是要針對這件事情，你增一氣，我剛剛已經算過容量的數據……"],["郭部長智輝：臺中的部分，我們會蓋天然氣的發電機。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，我問的是，我們是不是要增一氣、減二煤？"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們要蓋氣拆煤啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：再蓋氣拆煤，可以馬上拆嗎？可以向我們保證嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在還沒有蓋啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：蓋好之後，你可以保證我們增一氣、拆二煤嗎？因為我剛剛那個容量已經算給你聽了，你可不可以保證？因為我是在為臺中鄉親，為中部人民發聲嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：這是您的假設啦！但是我們會存留的部分，它是不會運作，但是是在備載。"],["廖委員偉翔：你確定不會運作，你要確定喔！不要到時候電不夠、電不充足的時候，你出來就把它加大火力、加大燃煤的機組，然後開始一起燒。"],["郭部長智輝：這個有很多的狀況，比如說設備突然壞了……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你不敢保證，對不對？部長，所以我只想問，你不敢保證，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能新的設備會經常壞，但是我總是要有一些備載。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，剛剛也算過了，至少就是要增一氣、拆二煤，至於為什麼不拆，我想上午你們在質詢的時候也有說到，對臺中人抱著感激與歉意，那有什麼補償措施嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是我們會加速把它更換成燃氣……"],["廖委員偉翔：那能不能至少承諾，113年燃煤量可以低於1,200萬噸；114年可以低於1,000萬噸；115年可以低於800萬噸；118年達到無煤臺中，可以保證嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，臺中火力發電廠，曾經是最大的火力發電廠……"],["廖委員偉翔：它就是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這麼多年以來，它對臺灣的產業發展也著實是有貢獻的，我重要的是這句話，這麼多年以來，它存在的問題，我們沒有辦法在短短的幾年當中把它解決……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以不能承諾，對不對？我剛剛提的，不能承諾。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會承諾的是，會加速它的以氣換煤。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，總結來說，政府信誓旦旦說要提升我們的再生能源占比，但是燃氣機組也越來越多，而且臺中、中南部鄉親擔心的是，到時候如果不夠的時候，當然就是火力全開嘛！排碳、空污、排好、排滿，當然你也有說地熱可以期待，可是也是不確定，所以基本上，就是這一切的不確定性非常多，可是AI又需要乾淨的電力，而且又要充足喔！","我簡單附一個報告，就是Low-Carbon Power Center網站的統計，我們的低碳電力占比17.5%，本來全球排名是第110名，明年去除核電之後就會排到第145名，也就是我們在低碳電力的部分是全球的後段班，所以這個部分真的是要加油啊！真的要務實的去看待我們的能源政策，而且童子賢也說過，產業在穩定能源上面的需求，就是必須要考量核能。我想說不要再騙自己了，真的要務實，我們真的不希望在你不拆的情況之下，未來電力不足時你就是火力全開啦！那臺中人要怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也是很務實的，才能說不是很快的時間就把它整個廠都拆掉，這就是務實了。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們說了，就是增一氣、拆二煤啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在增加4加2之後，保留的6部完全是備用、備援的系統。"],["廖委員偉翔：我整理了一下台電官網的資料，關於平均購電成本，111年是2.33元；112年是3.59元；到今年是3.06元；我們也可以看到核電平均是一塊多；再生能源從四塊多飆到五塊半；風力也是增加的。所以核能拿掉之後，其實購電成本會增加，所以我想要請問的是，在結構不變的情況之下，好像也只有繼續漲電價，一樣的，我想問的是，有別的路嗎？可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎？可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們對未來的狀況是有充分的掌握。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是你可以保證明年不再漲電價嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：漲不漲電價是審議委員會的權利。"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得你這地方還滿矛盾的，剛剛也有委員問你，你說院長有交代，你們會馬上去辦。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是把環境做起來……"],["廖委員偉翔：包含凍漲等等……"],["郭部長智輝：但你問我的是漲不漲電價……"],["廖委員偉翔：我是說可不可以保證明年……"],["郭部長智輝：我跟您報告，漲不漲電價是審議委員會的決定，我們只能夠把環境做好，讓他不漲電價。"],["廖委員偉翔：簡單來講，這就是數學題。沒關係，數學題就是這樣。我想要講的是，這是錯誤的能源配比，這個能源政策基本上就是有不確定性，甚至掏空臺灣。我之前也說過，這能源政策有點像在打假球，會讓人家覺得民進黨為什麼堅持錯誤的能源政策？因為這是民進黨的發財秘笈嗎？要發國難財就要先有國難，而錯誤的能源政策導致的國難，所以就要從這裡面去發財？過去的雲豹光電你們不能不承認，此外超思雞蛋、高端弊案，還有現在的臺鹽綠能，不是都這樣嗎？這就是錯誤的能源政策從根爛起！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果你認為他們是有問題的，去告發啊！把他告發啊！為什麼不去提告呢？"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，不好意思，我是把這些東西都列出來。臺鹽綠能有沒有問題？最近不是有上新聞，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：你把他送法院啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：我要問一下院長還有農業部長，現在檢調在偵辦超思案，也以被告名義約談陳部長，但超思案關鍵人物秦語喬的女兒吳諭非還在日本，請問檢察官約談了嗎？通緝了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：檢察官……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以沒有，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：檢察官的任何動作我們不能在這裡答復。"],["廖委員偉翔：同樣的，柯文哲的前秘書橘子、許芷瑜同樣在日本，結果北檢火速通緝，請問院長，檢調這樣雙標調查是不是查到哪就辦到哪，不約他回來就不用查了？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員是覺得哪一件不對？"],["廖委員偉翔：我指的是雙標的部分，吳諭非的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是檢察官辦案的進度，我們無法在這裡評論。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來登記第17號賴瑞隆委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴瑞隆書面質詢：","一、台灣每年皆有颱風豪雨．山陀兒風災造成高雄災損及停電、停水，請行政院加速佈建擴大推動防災型桿線地下化，減少電力設備受風雨損壞的危險與停電影響","本(10)月初，山陀兒颱風從高雄小港登陸，損壞電線電杆等電力設施導致高屏一度高達27萬戶停電，市區的高雄前鎮、小港、旗津也超過萬戶停電，雖然多數用戶在台電公司搶修下迅速恢復供電，但也有少數個案停電4日才恢復正常，在電力影響民生至關重大的現代，大家都期望政府能做得更多、更好。","(一)過去曾投入70億推動「防災型桿線地下化」，成效有目共睹．我國電纜已有超過四成完成地下化","前行政院院長林全在2016年10月6日於行政院院會指示研究擴大推動原本的電纜地下化工程，台電公司隨後規劃在2017年到2020年間，以70億元經費推動422公里電纜地下化，當時林前院長就是考慮到颱風來襲時容易因為電杆電線等設施損壞，造成停電影響人民生命財產安全。台電公司在2020年迄今持續推動「配電系統五年（112-116）升級計畫」，其中大約有20億用在防災型杆線地下化工程，根據台電提供的資料顯示，迄2024年8月底止，我國電纜地下化的比例已經達到46.2%。","(二)屏鵝公路141公里纜線地下化能在半年時間完工．足見事在人為．請行政院大力支持減少颱風災損停電．完善高屏電纜地下化工程","蘇貞昌院長曾推動「屏鵝公路電纜地下化」，從2022年7月1日完成規劃正式啟動，到同年12月30日宣布完工，在短短的半年之內就完成了屏鵝公路共141公里的纜線地下化工程，屏鵝公路的電纜地下化工程不僅在2023年的杜蘇芮颱風造成大面積淹水的情況下，維持沿線周邊的供電，也在這次的山陀兒颱風維持優良的供電穩定。足見如果行政院有決心推動建設，有能力加速推動，本席籲請行政院加速推動我國防災型電纜地下化工程，並優先在本次山陀兒颱風受災較嚴重、停電影響範圍最廣的高屏地區優先推動，讓人民能在面對極端氣候的風雨天災時，減少停電造成的更多損失。","二、確保產業與民生用電無虞是政府別無旁貸的責任，能源政策除了持續推動減碳淨零，更重要的是維持穩定充足的電力","根據經濟部能源署《112年度全國電力資源供需報告》，政府持續開發電源、興建電廠，每一年度新增的電力機組裝置容量皆高於除役的裝置容量：","且為了因應未來台灣發展半導體、AI領域的生產應用所生的耗電增加，要持續擴增備用容量率，以應對高負載用電。","由以上的規畫可以看出，在2030年前，我國的電力供應備用容量率會持續提高，所謂的「缺電」問題並非事實，政府應告訴國人正確的資訊。","(一)核電延役、新核能須在三條件充分共識下進行討論","在野黨一直主張要讓核電延役，以解決「缺電」的問題，甚至要提案修正「核子反應器設施管制法」但事實上，這幾天因為核三廠機組歲修，我國暫時提前進入「非核家園」狀態，也沒有發生缺電的情況，那些以「缺電」名義攻擊政府能源政策，主張要恢復核電甚至擴張核電的說法，已不攻自破。政府的說法一直都具有一慣性，首先是必須合法，但若依照核子反應器設施管制法，除役五年前應送延役計畫，目前所有核電廠都已經過了這個時機；其次，沒有核安就沒有核電，這是全民的共識；第三，核廢料要能處理才能繼續推動。","(三)卓院長稱對核能新技術持開放態度，是否代表政府非核家園的政策目標發生轉變，請行政院具體說明。","日前，卓院長接受外媒彭博社專訪，國內媒體也轉述內容並下了「卓院長表示，對使用新核能非常開放」這樣的標題，甚至還整理了前後說法。本席期望行政院能有一個透明公開且一致的態度。","三、高雄有充足水電完成產業轉型，但請行政院持續改善南電北送的情況，以確保台灣的產業發展與能源穩定。","高雄市配合國家政策需要，負擔三座火力電廠，不僅足以供應市區內產業需求，甚至大量北送中北部，高雄有充足的水電可以負擔產業發展，但高雄市現在自己也在發展半導體與AI等高耗電的科技產業，加上核三廠將在2025年中除役，這些原本透過電網支援中北部的電力，將優先就近供應南高屏的需要，請行政院未來執行電源開發時，應以區域內就近供應為原則，中北部的電力需求應就近建設發電設施，合乎區域均衡發展也較能減少長距離輸送的耗損與風險。"],["主席：接下來請18號許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34d2103e62e7cf8f556e9140c2b1893b4a2c0f7b3725aa2855a3edfb217b8fd1275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"15:49:55 - 16:06:10","影片長度":"00:16:15","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T15:49:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T16:06:10+08:00","duration":975,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.70159375,"end":6.764093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.915968750000001,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.57346875,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.99909375,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.05971875,"end":32.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.392843750000004,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.11409375,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.13096875,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.58221875,"end":37.915343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.892843750000004,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.242843750000006,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.149718750000005,"end":50.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.820343750000006,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.127843750000004,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.882843750000006,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.05909375,"end":63.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.20659375000001,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.75471875000001,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.93159375,"end":71.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.09971875000001,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":74.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.48346875,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.53409375000001,"end":77.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.01909375000001,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.38596875,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.94284375000001,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.37721875000001,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.61284375000001,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":87.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.51096875,"end":90.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.83534375,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.29471875,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.21846875,"end":101.29784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.41159375000001,"end":103.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.19596875,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.17846875000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.79846875000001,"end":113.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.37596875000001,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.37096875,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.34534375000001,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.62784375000001,"end":125.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.40784375000001,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.12909375,"end":130.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.60971875,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.71909375,"end":135.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.71846875,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.86971875,"end":141.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.47284375,"end":144.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.50596875000002,"end":147.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.58159375,"end":149.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.14659375000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.64846875,"end":153.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.72409375,"end":157.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.28471875,"end":159.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.15784375,"end":161.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.00971875000002,"end":165.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.96284375000002,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.07659375,"end":173.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.24846875,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.34096875,"end":178.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.46721875,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.16721875000002,"end":182.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.83784375000002,"end":183.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.25096875,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.69784375,"end":188.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.95909375000002,"end":195.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.25346875000002,"end":198.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.80159375000002,"end":199.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.99534375000002,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.02034375000002,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.41659375,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.16721875000002,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.92221875,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.93409375000002,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.59221875,"end":217.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.45659375000002,"end":222.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.84846875000002,"end":224.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.63721875000002,"end":225.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.61596875,"end":226.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.38784375,"end":228.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.84721875000002,"end":232.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.88909375,"end":233.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.47096875000003,"end":236.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.06971875000002,"end":240.07784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.39409375000002,"end":243.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.43159375000002,"end":246.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.75159375,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.92409375000003,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.15596875000003,"end":254.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.09659375,"end":257.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.54346875,"end":258.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.84284375000004,"end":259.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.27284375,"end":263.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.55096875000004,"end":266.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.15784375000004,"end":269.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.37284375,"end":271.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.54534375000003,"end":274.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.24096875000004,"end":277.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.78909375,"end":279.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.24034375,"end":282.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.91909375,"end":286.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.34471875,"end":288.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.14596875,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.60534375000003,"end":294.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.71909375,"end":300.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.31721875,"end":302.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.47721875,"end":304.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.33346875,"end":306.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.38784375,"end":309.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.76721875000004,"end":313.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.96909375,"end":316.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.75346875,"end":320.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.16221875,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.55846875000003,"end":325.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.75221875,"end":327.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.33409375,"end":330.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.84409375,"end":332.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.17284375,"end":336.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.47596875000005,"end":339.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.30284375,"end":340.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.80034375,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.04034375000003,"end":345.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.43659375000004,"end":348.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.32221875000005,"end":354.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.28346875,"end":355.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.29159375,"end":359.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.44721875000005,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.40846875,"end":366.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.51784375,"end":369.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.11659375000005,"end":376.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.86284375,"end":374.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.01846875,"end":379.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.23346875000004,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.97159375,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.36346875000004,"end":387.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.34159375,"end":391.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.07096875,"end":394.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.22659375,"end":396.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.18409375000005,"end":398.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.37784375,"end":405.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.51159375000003,"end":410.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.47721875,"end":413.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.70034375,"end":415.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.16846875000005,"end":417.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.70409375,"end":418.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.91471875,"end":421.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.18846875,"end":426.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.79534375000003,"end":429.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.09034375000005,"end":432.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.36409375000005,"end":433.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.06409375000004,"end":439.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.18159375000005,"end":440.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.99159375000005,"end":441.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.10096875000005,"end":443.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.37909375000004,"end":445.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.25221875000005,"end":447.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.63596875,"end":449.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.23471875,"end":451.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.06159375000004,"end":453.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.82909375,"end":455.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.68971875000005,"end":456.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.22534375000004,"end":457.76534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.93409375000005,"end":458.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.04784375,"end":460.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.52846875,"end":463.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.20721875000004,"end":467.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.45971875000004,"end":470.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.26534375000006,"end":472.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.27346875,"end":475.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.97346875000005,"end":479.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.34409375,"end":487.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.03471875,"end":493.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.26596875,"end":495.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.40909375,"end":498.65346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.09221875000003,"end":501.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.41659375000006,"end":502.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.93971875000005,"end":505.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.33159375,"end":507.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.18784375,"end":510.49971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.49971875000006,"end":510.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.81596875,"end":513.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.99284375,"end":514.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.4778437499999,"end":521.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.86909375,"end":524.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.40034375,"end":529.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.0578437500001,"end":532.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.7365937500001,"end":534.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.7322187500001,"end":537.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.3772187500001,"end":538.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.26721875,"end":541.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.66346875,"end":544.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.5659687500001,"end":547.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.0803437500001,"end":549.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.4934687500001,"end":552.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.49721875,"end":557.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.85096875,"end":559.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.12471875,"end":561.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.05284375,"end":562.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.76159375,"end":563.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.85409375,"end":567.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.68909375,"end":568.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.0603437500001,"end":568.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.2922187500001,"end":572.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.91659375,"end":570.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.5615937499999,"end":573.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.7765937500001,"end":575.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.29534375,"end":577.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.35409375,"end":582.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.5222187500001,"end":583.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.5347187500001,"end":584.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.7665937500001,"end":585.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.15034375,"end":590.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.79096875,"end":594.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.8247187500001,"end":591.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.82846875,"end":594.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.7903437500001,"end":599.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.1059687500001,"end":600.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.57846875,"end":604.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.0928437499999,"end":604.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.57784375,"end":607.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.34534375,"end":607.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.1553437499999,"end":608.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.8640937499999,"end":611.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.10409375,"end":613.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.63534375,"end":622.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.02721875,"end":618.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.0265937500001,"end":622.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.98409375,"end":626.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.19034375,"end":637.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.7297187500001,"end":632.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.6997187500001,"end":635.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.06659375,"end":636.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.02846875,"end":643.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.23846875,"end":652.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.35659375,"end":643.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.20346875,"end":652.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.89096875,"end":652.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.2790937500001,"end":657.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.43471875,"end":656.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.6328437500001,"end":659.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.1809687500001,"end":662.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.5772187500002,"end":670.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.8290937500001,"end":672.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.0903437500001,"end":674.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.4909687500001,"end":675.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.6215937500001,"end":683.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.9578437499999,"end":685.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.0672187499999,"end":687.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.40034375,"end":688.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.90659375,"end":687.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.95721875,"end":688.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.5647187500001,"end":688.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.2565937500001,"end":690.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.8047187500001,"end":692.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.1928437500001,"end":692.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.28971875,"end":698.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.7065937500001,"end":701.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.57971875,"end":700.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.71471875,"end":700.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.5247187500001,"end":707.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":701.9297187500001,"end":702.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.48159375,"end":711.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.75159375,"end":708.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.0590937500001,"end":711.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.54846875,"end":712.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.1853437500001,"end":725.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.64346875,"end":726.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.02721875,"end":728.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.16596875,"end":730.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.2078437499999,"end":732.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.5747187500001,"end":734.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.63346875,"end":736.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":736.2197187500001,"end":737.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.40096875,"end":741.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":737.5022187500001,"end":737.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.21909375,"end":740.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.06284375,"end":746.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.10409375,"end":749.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.80409375,"end":753.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.15784375,"end":756.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.7734687500001,"end":760.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.92034375,"end":762.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.0678437500001,"end":764.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.75971875,"end":766.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.10534375,"end":766.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.3247187500001,"end":768.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.6828437500001,"end":778.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.06534375,"end":781.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":781.02284375,"end":781.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.2422187500001,"end":781.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":781.29284375,"end":781.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.74846875,"end":781.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":782.4740937500001,"end":787.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.6047187500001,"end":783.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.62096875,"end":788.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.8359687500001,"end":795.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":796.34534375,"end":799.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.3997187500001,"end":801.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.09971875,"end":804.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.23846875,"end":808.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.7990937500001,"end":816.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.74721875,"end":821.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.4678437500002,"end":826.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.70346875,"end":829.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.46284375,"end":830.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":829.3528437500001,"end":829.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.8928437500001,"end":830.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":830.8547187500001,"end":830.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":830.97284375,"end":831.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.4284687500001,"end":831.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":831.96846875,"end":832.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.3059687500001,"end":832.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":832.39034375,"end":832.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.4240937500001,"end":832.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":832.9640937500001,"end":834.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.21721875,"end":833.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":834.88784375,"end":843.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.84096875,"end":839.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.19471875,"end":843.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.2703437500002,"end":848.4890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.4722187500001,"end":853.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.8603437500001,"end":852.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":853.7709687500001,"end":858.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.1928437500001,"end":854.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":854.41221875,"end":854.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.58096875,"end":854.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.3022187500001,"end":856.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.4540937500001,"end":856.5047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.99409375,"end":857.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.0615937500002,"end":857.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.1965937500001,"end":858.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":859.3059687500001,"end":860.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":861.2465937500001,"end":862.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":862.98471875,"end":868.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":868.4353437500001,"end":873.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.97034375,"end":884.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.9153437500001,"end":876.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":878.2397187500001,"end":879.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":884.21346875,"end":889.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.9128437500001,"end":893.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.11909375,"end":900.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.12221875,"end":902.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.3415937500001,"end":906.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":902.6240937500002,"end":905.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":905.9822187500001,"end":906.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":906.9609687500001,"end":915.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":913.8290937500001,"end":914.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":914.7234687500002,"end":915.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":915.5503437500001,"end":916.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":917.13659375,"end":921.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":921.40596875,"end":922.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":922.8572187500001,"end":923.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":924.59534375,"end":927.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":927.7678437500001,"end":929.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":929.7084687500001,"end":931.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":931.93596875,"end":932.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":932.76284375,"end":934.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":934.1128437500001,"end":934.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":934.6697187500001,"end":934.6865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":934.90596875,"end":937.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":937.9097187500001,"end":937.9265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":937.9265937500002,"end":937.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":937.97721875,"end":938.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":938.11221875,"end":938.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.12909375,"end":938.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":938.1459687500001,"end":938.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.39909375,"end":951.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.8247187500001,"end":944.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":951.62909375,"end":953.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":957.7378437500001,"end":958.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":959.2734687500001,"end":959.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":970.56284375,"end":974.1572187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.003,"end":15.441,"text":"時間暫停報告委員會現在議場二樓旁聽的是柯真委員特別推薦來臺灣文教經貿交流協會所好朋友歡迎熱情歡迎謝榮介委員請"},{"start":33.457,"end":53.168,"text":"報告院長,我們請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。市委,謝謝。董委長,辛苦。我這裡,葉委員在跟你這寸,說到我,什麼幾年我在說黑麵皮露來,要掛五年,也是在開玩笑。"},{"start":63.243,"end":82.131,"text":"議長這很重要地球環境候鳥是一個相當重要的指標啊是的我不在開玩笑我知道委員是用心我們維護生態我告訴你2024年黑面披露全球的普查出來了"},{"start":83.866,"end":106.076,"text":"每年到了3月普查就會出來大概我們農曆年過了完整的普查包括香港、越南、菲律賓包括我們台灣這20多年來的保育做得非常好從200多隻到現在的6,988隻可是今年就是到了6,988隻總數"},{"start":110.834,"end":123.837,"text":"全球的總數今年就去年齁多了355隻355隻那是台灣的台灣我們台灣總共少了93隻啊台灣剩下4000台灣是4135隻我們比前一年少了93隻啊那台灣少了93隻你知道台南少多少嗎"},{"start":140.919,"end":158.61,"text":"我告訴你 台南市少了191隻為什麼會這樣 那多的到哪裡去了濁水溪口跟屏東 他們太陽能光電沒那麼嚴重那這個數據 你就要繼續觀察"},{"start":163.086,"end":183.301,"text":"增加一年,在明年後年,屏東,我過去補充說,屏東你太陽能現在漸漸在漸淡的時候,我跟你講,環境就會受到影響。你國民機構啊,這樣國民六百在寫的,環境應用,它就應用了嘛。它的密實,產生了問題。"},{"start":185.313,"end":212.919,"text":"其實你有了問題候鳥不來這就是我們整個能源政策是否有偏差不管那不是你的酒割定的你要去救啊你要去做一個救援的人啊救援環境救援人員你對歐美納杯你就可以看到要怎麼去救啊那個苦藥基金正在收斬下去我們台南啊"},{"start":215.683,"end":227.407,"text":"臺灣吃不夠!臺灣吃不夠!我才在說光天啦!要去火里賓吃來賭!不對,你說你是世間啦!我認為那不是世間!那是真心話!我最近看到的經濟經濟部!"},{"start":241.448,"end":246.07,"text":"海龍地火力兵在招商的。 什麼火力兵招商最近會這麼多?"},{"start":246.07,"end":248.831,"text":"火力兵正電?"},{"start":248.831,"end":253.193,"text":"這不是假的, 沒錯這是真的。 火力兵正的電要救回來台灣?"},{"start":253.193,"end":253.953,"text":"困難。 最好何況是什麼?"},{"start":253.953,"end":257.794,"text":"何況在美軍和火力兵, 要設一條綠燈要用很多電, 火力兵欠電欠價。"},{"start":268.203,"end":281.307,"text":"只要這個電賬賺不回來台灣沒關係 菲律賓贏啊 到處的人都一樣賺啊但是政府有補助而已啊 切記 不然我現在真的把你提出警局啊這個事情發生 不能叫人撩到啊 有有撩人沒撩啊 如果這個事情再去撩到啊"},{"start":293.746,"end":306.835,"text":"這樣就說雖然這有卡在電源政策的概念所以你沒帶沒紙你跟AIT講出來是要講的美國人變成無路可他不是無路可美國人是怕錢的人美國人是怕錢的人絕對不是無路可所以他會很生氣叫你講得清楚嘛你是一個生理人出來當然你不像其他政策你不像泰國生啊"},{"start":321.192,"end":336.138,"text":"所以你這些人在說話我比較會聽你的,別人在說話我沒什麼要聽,我先輕鬆回應,我對你有過多的期待,漸漸,所讓我變成期待越來越少,慢慢,轉變成失望,我叫你變成失望,很正當的心情,"},{"start":350.353,"end":368.663,"text":"我看到所謂叫做賴清德的主帝兵,賴總統是檢主選的,對不對?是。派一個地方的主委,檢理委長才把你大債吃?你現在是怎樣?你是風景的天氣暖暖?"},{"start":370.148,"end":374.592,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":388.39,"end":414.793,"text":"你也很勇敢面對嘛,我主要是你的報告但是你的面對問題很多嘛,不對嗎?我在十幾年以來,跟你們討的資料啦我你們經濟部的伯伯說,不怪你們提供了移居的資料來這裡伯伯說嘛你跟我說李鴻、李素妮啦李鴻、李素妮,我們所有聯友"},{"start":416.209,"end":416.749,"text":"這一點比較少啦齁。（年期）。）。）。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。（。"},{"start":447.281,"end":452.626,"text":"聯企及討論三項（1524億多（可變2億1821億多（。（1524億多（每年可變2億1821億多（。"},{"start":471.291,"end":484.101,"text":"您用正式公文,我常常說,我拿來這裡給你質詢,我給你繞腿一點意義,對台灣一點幫忙也沒有。你所有提供影響的資料,影響我可以特別來聽,我影響是要怎麼說的,面對台灣人文這問題。這問題不用迴避了,這件事情大家都正式來面對嘛,對不對,不要人家開罐嘛。"},{"start":496.459,"end":518.349,"text":"我看你那個,當初給你大小聲,還給你拍手,這樣意思是甚麼?提總統給你修理,這樣是很不尊重你的。沒有,我尊重委員啦。沒有啦,他這樣就很不尊重你啦。沒有啦。那意思是甚麼?求輸輪輸,沒關係。反對甚麼?兩年前我在選黨員請教的時候,我就說這兩個會來我電廠,如果我動手,我坐地,不得我坐了。"},{"start":522.915,"end":523.696,"text":"今天台南的鄉親"},{"start":550.543,"end":563.408,"text":"他也都有知道說這個問題喔!他已經希望說他就來,既然你這麼餓樂意,感覺他有在電視上的情緒,有就!他就正式宣示一下!這兩個會議如果發展出,絕對不能跟進!好不好?委員報告,我他的聽術上開始需要檢討。在投標的時候,不用寬評跟電視政府的同意。"},{"start":579.924,"end":591.997,"text":"但是得標的時候要去出這個 我覺得這個這個設計齁 檢測有些什麼問題 因為要去面對電的犯罪 民間的這個 它沒有公款 它實在沒辦法處理一些事情 民間的這個 它沒有公款 它實在沒辦法處理一些事情 民間的這個 它實在沒有公款 它實在沒辦法處理一些事情"},{"start":601.066,"end":610.692,"text":"這要跟帝昂去參詳,我還是...沒有人幫你參詳啊,你...你硬拗,你還跟帝昂去參詳?你如果要參詳就等兩天喔,我起來你若不參詳,我一定把他加上去。你現在的意思就是,我們如果跟我一樣的路線,對這兩個匯率,我等一下...因為什麼?一直安定、善化...喔,我...我台南..."},{"start":624.022,"end":625.683,"text":"都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案案。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":653.326,"end":674.745,"text":"因為就算開記者會等到表演（表演到大聲聲（目前這個階段是已經得標（已經可以做（但是跟電影（這個溝通（發生這個（溝通上的困難（跟沒有達成（這個事情要去努力（今天沒辦法努力（我們就再繞其他的手法（所以發展商又繼續做（目前的程序是這樣（它得標（"},{"start":675.783,"end":684.291,"text":"所以他們起來表演這裡說要把它停下來,是假的?這不是表演,這是歡迎帝兄的聲音出來,沒有想到...所以你是補充到擬充嘛,這兩天有要把它...我還真是不瞭解"},{"start":691.818,"end":703.021,"text":"報告委員,我們現在要修法。法令所規定的,我們要先討。 我就要問問跟你們拜託,問問跟你們說,你說沒有,他這麼大聲,你還配合他?我們鄉親都聽到他上來講國會這兩天要給他解僱。"},{"start":713.226,"end":719.089,"text":"我們現在就要說這個問題為什麼會發生,我們要怎麼來改革這個問題,改革問題是第一個我們要做的,所以委員在提出的這部分,我們會詳細來考慮一下。 改革問題這兩天發電廠要改革起來沒有人。"},{"start":729.195,"end":737.018,"text":"我想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想想"},{"start":756.823,"end":781.396,"text":"你很多官司吃水沒水口來,你那些官司有要起水口嗎?敢不敢起水口?我們台南市一年之內三、六十萬噸的水有夠多市民吃?你都水口說要吃水啊,不起水口來,啊你沒要起水口啊,我們台南市說霸帝就要把起管給一公車?啊你看我水給你吃,你電不給我用這樣喔?"},{"start":782.503,"end":792.305,"text":"沒有啦,委員,現在是這樣的啦,我們要看台灣是一體的啦。對阿,台灣一體,什麼你說,我們台南起飛來發電車,我們台南都沒火燈發電啦,太陽營也來啦,水也發電也來啦,現在回來的火燈也來啦,拜託阿,不然現在我是欠什麼啦。"},{"start":805.407,"end":815.312,"text":"所以這兩天,現在已經有回到我的電車喔!啊你還加這兩天!啊他們為了炒賺起來說我,不用洗了不用洗了!啊你還給我吼!議員你講得很對!所以鄉親今天給我問說,梁家人,人家要停下來你還不知道!我反對兩三次,但我不知道說人家這兩個電車要被廢除了!"},{"start":826.758,"end":845.795,"text":"所以 行政委員會報告 請先跟台南的鄉親說說太虛度了嗎?我們現在就是要走這個定數嘛走什麼定數?走虛度的定數?這不是說我自己的企業 不然我自己的企業怎麼會這樣喔?你走虛度的定數 你要把當初建構的沒人一直吞了啊!是啊是啊 搞那個人要賠人家要找人家要找人家 現在沒有這個決定啊"},{"start":853.906,"end":858.351,"text":"現在就是我 要再來了解啦 要修法 講好講好來來來 現在是有要停下來嗎 沒有這個過程"},{"start":862.998,"end":863.238,"text":"大家齁 認情來講這個事"},{"start":891.465,"end":891.645,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":917.285,"end":934.271,"text":"這樣就表示現在有提到這條在興建的這個徽章發展中,你們不想停,所以就看我們台南市政府能不能停,如果我們停就我們的事,我們全盤要停,你們的立場就是不想停,是不是這樣?你知道我們的立場暫時不能停啊。"},{"start":937.927,"end":937.947,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":970.672,"end":971.874,"text":"謝謝謝榮介委員的質詢。謝謝主委院長、部長的備詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":397,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（15時50分）報告院長，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝委員，謝謝。"],["謝委員龍介：卓院長，辛苦了。剛才葉委員在質詢時說到我，說什麼去年我在說黑面琵鷺來要戴墨鏡是在開玩笑，院長，這很重要，地球環境，候鳥是一個相當重要的指標。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["謝委員龍介：我沒有在開玩笑……"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道，委員是用心，我們維護生態。"],["謝委員龍介：我是很心痛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我了解。"],["謝委員龍介：我告訴你，2024年黑面琵鷺全球的普查出來了，每年到了3月普查就會出來，大概我們農曆年過了，完整的普查包括香港、越南、菲律賓，包括我們臺灣，這二十多年來的保育做得非常好，從兩百多隻到現在的6,988隻，可是今年就是到了6,988隻，全球的總數去年多了355隻，但是臺灣呢？我們臺灣總共少了93隻，臺灣是4,135隻，我們比前一年少了93隻，臺灣少了93隻，你知道臺南少多少嗎？我跟你說，臺南市少了191隻，為什麼會這樣？那多的到哪裡去了？濁水溪口跟屏東，它們太陽能光電沒那麼嚴重，這個數據你就要繼續觀察，增加一年到明年、後年，我跟郭部長說，屏東的太陽能現在漸漸在增加，我跟你講，環境就會受到影響，你們高屏溪口這邊是黑面琵鷺休息的地方，環境受到影響就會影響到牠們嘛！牠的覓食產生了問題，棲息地有了問題，候鳥不來，這就是我們整個能源政策是否有偏差，不管那是不是在你任內決定的，但你要去救啊！你要去做一個救援的人啊，救援環境、救援人員，你從黑面琵鷺就可以看到要怎麼去救了，我們臺南的那個區域光電種得太多了！說實在的，現在民間說臺南吃不夠、臺灣吃不夠，就是在說光電啦！要去菲律賓弄來湊，部長，你說你是失言，我認為那不是失言，那是真心話。我最近看到經濟部都在菲律賓招商，為什麼菲律賓招商最近會這麼多？要去菲律賓種電，這不是假的，部長，這是真的，在菲律賓種的電要拉回來臺灣很困難，最後好康到誰？好康到美軍跟菲律賓，要設一個雷達要用很多電，菲律賓非常缺電，最後這些電送不回來臺灣，沒關係，菲律賓用啊，投資的人一樣賺，但是政府有補助他啊。切記，部長，我現在正式向你提出警告，這個事情發生，不要被人家料到，「牛有料，人無料」，如果這件事情又被人料到，雖然這有卡到地緣政治的介入，所以你無緣無故把AIT講出來，老實說美國變成broker，其實它不是broker，美國是下棋的人，它絕對不是broker，所以它會很生氣，叫你要說清楚嘛！你是一個生意人出身，當然你沒有像其他政治人物那麼齷齪，所以你們這些人在講話，我比較會聽你的，別人在說我不怎麼想聽。我最欣賞卓院長，我對你有高度的期待，卻漸漸讓我變成期待愈來愈少，慢慢就變成失望，我快要變成絕望了！院長，我懷著很沈重的心情，我看到所謂賴清德的子弟兵，賴總統是兼主席對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員龍介：派一個地方的主委兼立委在這裡對你大小聲，現在是怎麼樣？你是被人家叫來當擋箭牌的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有啦，委員，如果是針對地方的需要和地方的意見在這裡公開來說，我想我們都要很謙虛來討論。"],["謝委員龍介：兩年多前這些能源政策本來就不是你訂的，你是在這裡幫人家擦屁股嘛！要怎麼擦我們不知道，但你也很勇敢面對，從你早上的報告就可以看出來，但是你們要面對的問題很多。部長，我在10月21日跟你們要的資料，如果經濟部亂講，難怪你們提供給院長的資料來這裡也是亂講嘛！你們跟我說我們燃油、燃氣跟燃煤這三樣在2024年的總發電量是1,524億度，這是貴部給我的資料，然後你們又說明年（2025年）燃油、燃氣跟燃煤這三樣會從1,524億度變成2,120億度，這份資料你們用正式的公文給我，老實說，我拿來這裡跟你質詢，我給你漏氣對台灣一點幫助也沒有，你們所有提供給院長的資料，我早上還特別來聽聽看院長是要怎麼面對臺灣的這些能源問題。遇到問題不用迴避，執政黨、在野黨大家都正式來面對，對不對？看看要怎麼解決嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員龍介：像那個人在這裡對你大小聲、給你打槍，這樣的意思是怎麼樣？替總統修理你，這樣是很不尊重你的欸！"],["卓院長榮泰：我也尊重委員啦！"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦，他這樣就很不尊重你啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！就事論事，沒有關係。"],["謝委員龍介：意思是要怎麼樣？反對什麼？兩年前我在選臺南市長的時候，我就說如果我當選，這兩個火力發電廠絕對不會讓它做下去！你們當時也沒有要站出來說話，等到它拿到執照了，中央、地方都是貴黨在執政，執照都已經發給它了，現在竟然為了初選要來大小聲，難道來這裡跟院長大小聲就有版面嗎？很好啊！你還幫他鼓掌、你還稱讚他，說他是為了地方。那我們正式來說，今天臺南的鄉親也都知道這些問題，他們說院長既然這麼稱讚他，感覺他是為了地方出來爭取，那就請部長、院長正式宣示一下，這兩個火力發電廠絕對不能核准，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，它的程序上確實需要檢討，在投標的時候不用環評跟地方政府的同意，但是得標的時候卻必須取得這些，我覺得這個設計多少有一點問題，因為要去面對地方的反彈……"],["謝委員龍介：這樣要把它廢除就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：民間的這個……他沒有公權力，他實在沒辦法處理這些事情。"],["謝委員龍介：感謝，這樣你們有聽到院長說的了。院長，這樣就是要把這兩張執照廢除就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，這要再跟地方商量，我想整個人員……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！不用商量啦，你是院長，你還要再跟地方商量？"],["卓院長榮泰：是這樣嗎？"],["謝委員龍介：你如果要商量就等兩年後，我上去之後，你也不用商量，我一定把它「剪斷」。你現在的意思就是跟我一樣的路線，就因為這兩個火力發電廠是在安定、善化，我們臺南剛好沒有核能發電而已。"],["卓院長榮泰：我想我們要分成兩段，基於信賴原則，因為現在已經進行到這個程度了，要怎麼去解決這件事情……"],["謝委員龍介：要將它廢除嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來這個流程要再好好檢討。"],["謝委員龍介：因為我既然拿賴清德的牌子在這裡，等於他在質詢你就對了，就表示你們差不多有默契了，你打算這兩間電廠要「剪斷」就對了？要撤銷它的執照？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在並沒有做這樣的決定。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你也要考量民間投資的人現在投入到這個程度，我們要怎麼合理的解決。"],["謝委員龍介：到底有沒有？沒有的話，他們為了初選開記者會在那邊表演，還表演得大小聲。"],["卓院長榮泰：目前這個階段是已經得標，也已經可以做，但是因為跟地方發生溝通上的困難，還沒有達成共識，這件事情要去努力，如果沒辦法努力，我們就要再想其他的方法。"],["謝委員龍介：所以他們的發電廠要再繼續做？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前的程序是這樣，它得標。"],["謝委員龍介：所以他們上來表演說這裡要把它停下來，是假的？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是表演，這是反映地方的聲音，我想……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！你們是部長跟院長，這兩間有要廢除嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還要再進一步了解。"],["謝委員龍介：什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還要再進一步了解。"],["謝委員龍介：怎麼會這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：是啦。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們沒辦法，我們現在要守法，法令所規定的，我們要解套，解套後……"],["謝委員龍介：我好好的拜託你們，好好的跟你們說，你說不要，他在那邊大小聲，你還配合他！"],["郭部長智輝：這不是……"],["謝委員龍介：臺南的鄉親都以為他上來講一講，這兩間要把它「喀嚓」了耶！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就要說這個問題為什麼會發生，要怎麼來解決這個問題，解決問題是第一個我們要做的，所以委員剛才指教的這個部分，我們會詳細來考慮。"],["謝委員龍介：好，要解決問題，這兩間火力發電廠要不要解決掉？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想要去面對的是整個大臺南地區的南方S廊帶需不需要用電。"],["郭部長智輝：對，夠不夠這樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果要用電，大家要不要支持？"],["謝委員龍介：你不要跟我說大臺南地區的用電，哪一個縣市的用電自給率都是足夠的？部長，你還說地方用電自給率都不足，當然要設發電廠，臺南市有差不多有10個水庫，國內有很多縣市要用水但沒水庫，那些縣市有要蓋水庫嗎？要蓋水庫嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：所以這就是……"],["謝委員龍介：臺南市一天就送60萬噸的水給高雄市民用，美濃水庫……要用水但不蓋水庫，你們不蓋水庫，臺南市的壩堤還要再蓋高1公尺，你看我們的水給你們用，你們的電不給我們用，是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！委員，現在是這樣，我們要將臺灣看成是一體的。"],["謝委員龍介：對啊！臺灣是一體的，為什麼你說不夠電，臺南市就還要蓋火力發電廠？臺南剛好沒有核能發電，太陽能來了，水的發電也來了，現在火力發電也來了，拜託！現在我們是缺什麼？現在已經有火力發電廠了，你還加這兩支，他們為了初選上來說不能設、不能設，你還回說：對，委員說得很對。鄉親今天跟我說：「龍介，人家要停下來了，你還不知道」，我反對兩、三年了，還不知道這兩間電廠要廢除了，所以行政院長跟部長居然……"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部並沒有做這個決定。"],["謝委員龍介：現在正式跟臺南的鄉親說一下，已經有要廢除了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在要走程序。"],["謝委員龍介：走什麼程序？走廢除的程序？"],["郭部長智輝：這不是我自己的企業，如果是我自己的企業，不可以這樣喔！"],["謝委員龍介：沒有、沒有、沒有，你要走廢除的程序，你要跟投資者說，不然人家一直投資下去！"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊、是啊！"],["謝委員龍介：最後出事是要找你還是找我？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在沒有這個決定。"],["郭部長智輝：現在沒有這個決定。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有這個決定？"],["郭部長智輝：現在就是要再了解，要……"],["謝委員龍介：說清楚，現在是有要停下來嗎？沒有這個決定？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前沒有做這個決定。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有這個決定喔？要說清楚喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛才說的，這個階段是它已經得標，它要進行相關的程序。"],["謝委員龍介：所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：地方有聲音反對，現在停在這個地方。"],["謝委員龍介：所以我們地方如果要它停下來，就還要我再帶人去抗爭，跟它拚命就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是用抗爭、拚命……"],["謝委員龍介：不是抗爭？"],["卓院長榮泰：是合情合理來討論事情。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是……"],["謝委員龍介：合情合理，它就繼續蓋啊！"],["郭部長智輝：大家冷靜來討論這件事情。"],["謝委員龍介：我很冷靜，是那邊的人很不冷靜，說要停下來，你說好啊！"],["郭部長智輝：還是謝謝委員跟我們說，我認為這個要綜合大家的意見，再來判斷啦！"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！到底要不要停？你不能這樣，你跟一個委員說那樣，又跟我說這樣！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！法律上，它是得標的廠商，所以它有權利去跟居民溝通啦！"],["謝委員龍介：部長，這樣就表示現在有拿到執照在蓋的這些火力發電廠，你們沒有要停止它，所以就看臺南市政府是不是可以停止它，如果停了就是我們的事情了，我們找盡辦法來停止它，你們的立場就是沒有要讓它停，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的立場暫時不能停止它。"],["謝委員龍介：不能停止它？"],["郭部長智輝：這法律規定的，它就是得標廠商，我們不能……"],["謝委員龍介：不能停，人家在跟你質詢，你跟它捧場什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我們沒有跟它捧場啦！我的意思是我們必須要依法來做事情，不然我們訂這個法律就沒意義了。"],["謝委員龍介：這樣啦！跟鄉親講清楚了，沒有要停止它啦！沒有要停止它就對了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：依法要再進行一些程序。"],["謝委員龍介：臺南人跟我說它要停了，你還什麼都不知道！好，沒有要停。"],["主席：謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢。","報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘。現在休息。","休息（16時6分）","繼續開會（16時16分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34c23a16c244803fa06e9140c2b1893b4ab0e781c795f8f664da6e6bdae5930a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"15:34:01 - 15:49:45","影片長度":"00:15:44","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T15:34:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T15:49:45+08:00","duration":944,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.45971875,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.484718750000003,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.227218750000002,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.31534375,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.41659375,"end":16.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.43346875,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.714718750000003,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.76534375,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.035343750000003,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.494093750000005,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.28596875,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.02846875,"end":50.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.70659375,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.338468750000004,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.28159375,"end":75.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.36096875,"end":80.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.13221875,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.73096875,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.38409375,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.70409375000001,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.96534375,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.28971875,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.84659375000001,"end":104.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.39909375,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.40284375,"end":104.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.14534375000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.03846875,"end":119.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.19784375,"end":123.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.38346875,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.95971875,"end":135.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.06034375000002,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.85721875000002,"end":150.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.19721875000002,"end":168.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.57409375,"end":172.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.16846875000002,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.02909375000002,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.21471875,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.56034375000002,"end":177.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.61096875,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.24346875,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.39096875,"end":193.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.44159375,"end":181.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.26659375,"end":201.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.29471875000002,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.13159375,"end":232.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.71221875,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.87221875,"end":232.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.97346875000002,"end":235.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.36971875,"end":243.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.22909375,"end":246.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.86159375000003,"end":247.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.76846875,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.80221875,"end":249.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.92034375000003,"end":258.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.87346875000003,"end":251.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.89034375000003,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.02534375000002,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.71721875000003,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.76784375000003,"end":252.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.80159375000002,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.86034375000003,"end":255.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.57284375,"end":265.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.29784375,"end":264.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.49159375,"end":268.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.91721875,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.07721875000004,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.34471875,"end":292.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.69409375000004,"end":299.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.43971875,"end":302.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.41409375,"end":320.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.25096875,"end":337.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.01596875,"end":346.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.66471875,"end":347.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.06096875000003,"end":350.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.08596875,"end":355.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.58284375,"end":407.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.03909375,"end":407.17409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.17409375000005,"end":407.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.20784375000005,"end":407.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.25846875,"end":407.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.32596875,"end":407.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.55784375,"end":415.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.88596875,"end":415.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.76346875,"end":415.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.81409375000004,"end":436.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.21159375,"end":439.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.44346875,"end":444.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.40909375,"end":444.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.37909375000004,"end":451.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.89721875000004,"end":451.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.55534375,"end":461.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.25846875,"end":463.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.22846875000005,"end":465.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.89909375,"end":467.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.09284375000004,"end":482.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.21284375000005,"end":489.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.89534375000005,"end":493.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.92846875000004,"end":494.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.50221875000005,"end":510.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.23596875000004,"end":497.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.35409375,"end":497.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.97846875000005,"end":499.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.37721875000005,"end":521.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.29971875,"end":537.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.0378437500001,"end":524.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":537.02721875,"end":539.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.90034375,"end":577.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.29096875,"end":580.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.75034375,"end":586.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.69034375,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.6003437500001,"end":601.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.13096875,"end":605.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.09659375,"end":612.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.3740937499999,"end":623.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.68034375,"end":625.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.88659375,"end":628.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.42221875,"end":637.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.88909375,"end":642.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.23846875,"end":650.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.93346875,"end":655.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.99596875,"end":671.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":671.62221875,"end":672.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.79096875,"end":681.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.18596875,"end":684.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.10971875,"end":698.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":684.16034375,"end":684.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.58846875,"end":703.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.3090937500001,"end":708.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.3759687500001,"end":726.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.2084687500001,"end":727.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":728.5078437500001,"end":728.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":729.25034375,"end":742.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.32409375,"end":744.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":743.7122187500001,"end":750.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":750.4622187500001,"end":751.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":751.6772187500001,"end":755.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":755.6428437500001,"end":759.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.96284375,"end":762.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":762.2578437500001,"end":762.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.46034375,"end":762.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":762.7978437500001,"end":762.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.9665937500001,"end":764.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.18159375,"end":771.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.9440937500001,"end":773.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":773.9015937500001,"end":776.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.1753437500001,"end":791.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":780.8372187500001,"end":781.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.4184687500001,"end":810.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.87346875,"end":793.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.2590937500001,"end":809.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.0434687500001,"end":817.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.57409375,"end":819.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.73409375,"end":820.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.8984687500001,"end":835.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":821.6240937500002,"end":822.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":833.77409375,"end":835.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":835.98471875,"end":840.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":840.49034375,"end":842.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":843.19034375,"end":845.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":845.9578437500002,"end":848.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":848.96159375,"end":850.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":850.10909375,"end":850.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":851.4422187500002,"end":855.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":855.39096875,"end":857.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":858.22596875,"end":860.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":860.48721875,"end":860.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":860.5209687500001,"end":860.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":860.5378437500001,"end":861.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":861.5165937500001,"end":864.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":862.30971875,"end":867.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":867.37221875,"end":880.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":867.38909375,"end":870.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":878.88096875,"end":878.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":879.21846875,"end":879.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":880.75409375,"end":880.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":880.7709687500001,"end":905.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":881.17596875,"end":882.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":906.06659375,"end":909.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":909.8972187500001,"end":915.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":915.34784375,"end":921.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":916.15784375,"end":916.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":916.2084687500001,"end":916.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":918.84096875,"end":920.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":921.25409375,"end":926.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.72596875,"end":927.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.4597187500001,"end":930.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":928.54409375,"end":928.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":928.57784375,"end":929.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":939.91784375,"end":940.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.1665937500002,"end":943.9678437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.543,"end":17.804,"text":"韓院長好麻煩請卓院長謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢葉委員好卓院長好因為颱風又快來了剛剛有看到您在氣象署後面有接受訪問你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風架的這樣的一個機會所以以後氣象要多一爆好像要改到9點爆"},{"start":42.368,"end":62.393,"text":"因為以前大概都7點7點我們沒有要改變影響現在的時間我們是希望說在7點這一報的時候會跟所有的地方政府跟國人講說9點會再有一報那這一報大家要不要列為參考讓地方政府去考慮因為以前是7點最後一報所以大概大概大家就排8點放假"},{"start":62.873,"end":80.424,"text":"但如果現在宣誓說9點要多一報那我想縣市政府會降低自己放錯颱風架的機率一定會等到9點這個颱風出來之後這個氣象報告出來之後大概10點才會宣布了所以這可能會造成的影響就是以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假時間又會往後推遲了"},{"start":81.124,"end":98.758,"text":"我的考量是說如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化的時候我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道那如果我們要承認這個責任的話氣象署能不能有能力去做到那你會不會擔心說以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假"},{"start":99.358,"end":101.919,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":120.236,"end":120.256,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":135.981,"end":136.021,"text":"主席"},{"start":151.777,"end":167.563,"text":"這個部長您參考了,院長參考了今天我們還是回到我們今天這個主題院長我要先請教一下因為貴黨的立委許志傑他攻擊我了他說我法紀憲很高所以看起來比他老我不知道你認同這個看法我先問韓院長你認同嗎"},{"start":169.702,"end":195.573,"text":"你認同說法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老嗎?院長你認同嗎?我原青春活力啊。不是啊,你認不認同法紀憲比較高就看起來比較老啦?我不認同用這樣子的標準。就不要容貌攻擊啦。像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神啦。他膝蓋又軟很會蹲啦。這樣子互相攻擊容貌不太有意義。但我今天為甚麼講這件事情呢?是因為我們國人的法紀憲高不高會不會掉法?"},{"start":195.993,"end":219.286,"text":"其實政府也有責任為什麼呢因為根據很多研究報告顯示如果說我們的空氣有汙染的話對於我們的毛囊是有損害的這不是這個院長可以看一下2019年在馬德里舉辦的第28屆的一個研究一個大會就研究報告說如果懸浮微粒是跟人類吊靶有關的"},{"start":220.253,"end":222.635,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":248.715,"end":268.012,"text":"我這時間還比你長不是 這個你這樣推就有點問題啦因為當然每一個人的適應環境的狀況不太一樣啦有的人就比較受到影響嘛有的人比較不會受到影響啦包委那個這個頭髮會掉齁謠傳是酸雨比較多比較厲害是我現在不是講酸雨我現在不是講酸雨我現在講的是國際的研究報告"},{"start":269.333,"end":291.707,"text":"我現在不是講酸語那我們來看一下其實空汙對於我們的健康影響也很大像我們現在的十大死因有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣汙染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管的疾病讓發生的機率增加那問題是我相信行政院環境部也都有看到這一點"},{"start":293.028,"end":319.021,"text":"所以在你們的報告裡面你們有刻意去強調說政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少可是這個是報告講的說我們從2016年到2013年我們的空污排放已經減少了6乘5但是院長請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料這個資料也是台電給我台電我們剛剛要很久了在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我我本來是要來罵說為什麼不給"},{"start":320.362,"end":334.385,"text":"但他給我了可能就是讓我沒機會消化但是我們很簡單來看一下你就看協和電廠協和電廠的部分105年PM10是43.3%112年他的PM10是35.8%請問一下他有減少6乘5嗎報告委員這個其實不能只看電廠是要看一個區域的面積要用環境部的所有的標準的測站區域面積那所以你6乘5怎麼算出來的"},{"start":348.504,"end":358.977,"text":"這個是他電廠自己量的所以我現在是根據電廠我現在光看鞋貨電廠所排放出來的PM10他105年是43.3到112年只降到35.8就沒有到6乘5阿"},{"start":363.402,"end":372.749,"text":"所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平好那等一下部長等一下那再來除了這6乘5的問題之外院長你有沒有發現啊111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5各個電廠都有上升的趨勢"},{"start":380.214,"end":407.154,"text":"例如說協和電廠110年度是PM10是30.4但到了112年是35.8成長了非常的快PM2.5的部分協和電廠110年度是10.8到112年它成長到13.2那你可以看各個電廠不管是PM10或PM2.5到112年實際上都有上升趨勢我現在不知道113年是怎樣所以我們空屋沒有你們講的控制的這麼好"},{"start":408.595,"end":436.568,"text":"報告委員,這個要看環境部的標準的空屋,一個縣市、一個縣市、空品區或是台中的整體來看,不是看一個電廠。部長,我們剛剛講的,我剛剛給你秀出來的醫學報告我們講的都是懸浮微粒嘛,都是PM。都是PM嘛,不管是PM10還是PM2.5嘛。PM2.5或PM10它就是會造成身體的危害嘛。當然你環境部你可以找很多其他的指標啊,把這個懸浮微路對環境的影響把它稀釋掉啊,但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛。"},{"start":437.268,"end":464.539,"text":"我要看我們環境部在各地標準的策戰這個是台電他自己的量的所以台電量的跟環境部不一樣那環境部是不是在粉飾太平阿沒有粉飾太平喔我們是標準的手動去量PM2.0你現在跟我炒這個東西也沒有什麼意義為什麼因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多他就是有對身體造成影響那我們接下來我們來看喔我們這個能源配比的部分根據"},{"start":466.176,"end":471.178,"text":"提供給我們的資料了到了2030年說最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%藍氣50%藍煤20%沒錯吧實際上在2030年的最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電"},{"start":483.277,"end":509.817,"text":"火力發電要造成空污就比較容易啊。火力發電要這樣淨零就是比較困難啊。70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電。嗯,是低碳,低碳這個到底有沒有低碳,因為現在,你今天提供給我的資料齁,你今天提供給我的資料齁,我們都是打一個大問號啦,就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題的一樣,我拿到資料跟你拿給我的資料就是不一樣嘛。那再來齁,"},{"start":512.194,"end":529.559,"text":"雖然感覺上好像我看到你們給我們的報告因為最近因為核三廠停機算是修整所以現在台灣實質上是非核家園沒有核電的時代然後你講說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾%在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾%"},{"start":530.179,"end":545.401,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":545.601,"end":564.48,"text":"10月度我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電到明年5月的時候風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電了第二就是明年的用電量一定大增那你在核電退廠的情況之下你的綠電能不能補上我打一個很大的問號所以這個報告裡面我覺得這也是一個過度推論"},{"start":565.04,"end":565.721,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配"},{"start":587.1,"end":601.302,"text":"這代表什麼?代表說如果火力發電它會比較容易造成二氧化碳或是造成空氣汙染的話在晚上、早上其實情況是最嚴重的所以某種程度來講我們也不能只看它的平均值平均值就是有一點粉飾太平啦 院長你同意嗎"},{"start":602.359,"end":624.236,"text":"當然你要看他那個時候的發電量的量是多少的平均值高一點可是如果發電量在清晨半夜是比較少的那就不會產生委員所說的那樣但是實際上他的比例是高的然後還有一個我現在就來挑戰一下到2030年你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎現在告訴我們就是我剛剛講的"},{"start":626.943,"end":655.096,"text":"燃氣50%再生能源要30%燃煤要20%可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據這全部都是引用你報告的數據你們自己提到2016年我們那個再生能源裝置是4.73GW到了2023年年底等於是7年多我們的裝置容量到了17.96GW換句話說裝置容量大概成長了快4倍"},{"start":656.036,"end":683.244,"text":"可是發電量成長多少呢發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度發電量只增加了兩倍為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍發電量就兩倍呢因為我們大家都知道再生能源能夠發電時間很有限嘛很有限嘛晚上就沒有光電嘛或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱嘛我現在想要問院長是為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我那再生能源可以到30%"},{"start":684.264,"end":703.472,"text":"因為我幫你算過我幫你算過今天8年快接近8年你的發電量才成長了兩倍2030距今是大概是6年嘛因為今年也快過完了大概是5年多的時間5年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍"},{"start":704.292,"end":704.472,"text":"。（10月30日（。 三"},{"start":729.241,"end":729.261,"text":"。 三"},{"start":750.518,"end":775.221,"text":"所以這個的發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多而且比較穩定那其他能源也是我們小水利的發電所以是風力發電你認為發電量會成長幾倍事實上是如此啊成長幾倍因為我們要講數據嘛如果你要達到2030年要30%的話你的發電量起碼要現在再增能源的兩倍啊所以你所以報告委員這個沒有線性關係"},{"start":777.333,"end":799.173,"text":"那是什麼關係?沒有,我講發電量。他是每一個不同的世界左、下、西做的工程的量來決定幾年以後能夠產出多少。可是問題是我們現在,我們沒有去發電已經做了很多工程嗎?沒有線性。那你跟我講哪一個工程是可以造成這樣的線性的發展?你跟我講哪一個工程?我就講沒有線性關係啊。"},{"start":800.114,"end":820.545,"text":"那一定要你要有工程發電量才有可能曲線的上升嘛你先直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成這個發電量曲線上升我給你時間講嘛你講嘛我們現在在過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量所做的風機的量是比較大的"},{"start":821.546,"end":836.317,"text":"沒有,部長你就是針對我的問題回答我現在就問你,因為我也不是說你一定答不到只是說你們定的那個目標就我看來我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑你現在只能把路徑告訴我們風力的發電,2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5GW"},{"start":840.56,"end":850.407,"text":"到2028他會達到7.9到2030我們的目標是達到10.9這樣幾乎幾乎是有達到委員剛剛所說的但剛剛部長講光電光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW2028他應該會達到26.22030年的目標是31.2那你就沒有兩倍啊沒有兩倍我還有其他的還有什麼我們一個人來算嘛剛剛剛剛院長講說風力有兩倍嘛光電是1.5倍"},{"start":870.862,"end":897.736,"text":"我們如果有常俗的發展地熱也是一個可期待的當然他現在還在試探地熱不確定嘛但是我們有權力的發展我知道啦我們也支持你們權力發展我現在想是說目標定出來總是要有路徑完成也不是喊價嘛就像過去蔡政府喊2025飛蛾家園現在就做不到就跳票了嘛本來說綠電要到20%根據你們資料我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔你們也才16%而已啊"},{"start":898.436,"end":927.671,"text":"所以要告訴我們說你要怎麼做我們也支持你啊可是你不能說喊了一個數字答不到我現在就問具體的路徑嘛我們會把這個路徑啊來表示清楚表示清楚那所以今天來做這個專報你沒有準備資料就來報告還要表示清楚不是我因為他沒有先進關係啊所以我們我們在講說因為今天的報告叫能源配比啊我們能源配比我們一定會問你說你怎麼做到這個能源配比嗎這是基本的問題嘛所以我們今天跟你報告我們怎麼做啊"},{"start":928.85,"end":929.031,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":306,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時34分）韓院長好，麻煩請卓院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：卓院長好。因為颱風又快來了，剛剛有看到你在氣象署後面有接受訪問，你說未來為了要降低縣市政府放錯颱風假的機會，所以以後氣象要多一報，好像要改到9點報，因為以前大概都是7點。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有要改變、影響現在的時間，我們是希望在7點這一報的時候，可以跟所有的地方政府、國人講9點會再有一報，這一報大家要不要列為參考，讓地方政府去考量。"],["葉委員元之：因為以前7點是最後一報，所以大家大概就排8點宣布放假，如果現在宣布9點要多一報，我想縣市政府為了降低自己放錯颱風假的機率，一定會等到9點颱風氣象報告出來之後，大概10點才會宣布啦！這可能會造成的影響就是，以後大家要知道隔天有沒有放假，時間又會往後推遲了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我的考量是說，如果7點到9點真的有快速而且不可預期的變化時，我們有沒有責任第一時間要讓國人知道？如果我們要承擔這個責任的話，氣象署能不能有能力去做到？我們會請氣象署做這樣的安排。"],["葉委員元之：那你會不會擔心說，以後國人可能要等到10點才會知道明天要不要放假？會不會擔心？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要由地方政府自己去決定，他們也可以按照7點那一報來宣布。"],["葉委員元之：但是如果9點發現跟7點相比變化很大的話，原本說要放假，後來改不放假，或是原本不放假，改要放假，其實國人在這兩個小時也是很忐忑啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是放著變化大，不讓國人瞭解，或是照原來的比較早，但是不正確的資料，這個衡量要比較出來……"],["葉委員元之：可能你有研究過在這兩個小時……我不知道是不是氣象署有研究過，過去曾經因為7點到9點這兩個小時產生巨大變化，所以導致放假可能有錯放的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：氣象署有一句話提醒了我，他說我們過去的經驗很難完全去因應現在這種快速的變化，我們現在有新的作為……"],["葉委員元之：我個人是覺得多這一報沒有什麼太大的意義，不然的話，乾脆11點也多一報好了，就每兩個小時一報，因為越接近颱風要來的時間，一定是越準，所以這個給院長參考。","我們還是回到今天這個主題，院長，我要先請教一下，因為貴黨的立委許智傑攻擊我，他說我的髮際線很高，所以看起來比他老，我不知道你認不認同這個看法？我先問韓院長，你認同嗎？"],["主席：我最高。"],["葉委員元之：你最高！你認同如果髮際線比較高，就看起來比較老嗎？院長，你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，委員青春活力啊！"],["葉委員元之：不是，你認不認同髮際線比較高，就看起來比較老？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不認同用這樣的統一標準。"],["葉委員元之：就不要攻擊容貌，像我就覺得許智傑是高雄新男神，他膝蓋又軟，很會蹲，這樣子互相攻擊容貌，不太有意義。但我今天為什麼講這件事情呢？是因為我們國人的髮際線高不高、會不會掉髮，其實政府也有責任，為什麼呢？因為根據很多研究報告顯示，如果說我們的空氣有污染的話，對於我們的毛囊是有損害的。院長可以看一下，2019年在馬德里舉辦第28屆一個大會的研究報告，「懸浮微粒」是跟人類掉髮有關，為什麼呢？因為你的頭皮細胞如果是暴露在PM粉塵當中，頭皮細胞內的蛋白質就會變少，就會造成落髮，韓國的未來研究中心也有類似的研究，所以我們政府有責任減少空污，這跟我們的掉髮有關。我頭髮掉得多，我還要被你們的立委笑說比較老，所以罵人的也是你們，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，你、我都生存在同樣的環境當中，我的時間還比你長……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你這樣說就有點問題了，因為每一個人適應環境的狀況不太一樣，有的人比較會受到影響，有的人比較不會受到影響。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，頭髮會掉，謠傳是酸雨比較多、比較厲害，跟PM比較沒有什麼關係。"],["葉委員元之：我現在不是講酸雨，我現在講的是國際的研究報告，我現在不是講酸雨啊！我們來看一下，其實空污對於我們的健康影響也很大，像我們現在的十大死因，有很多篇的醫學論文都顯示空氣污染會導致肺癌、肝癌、消化道癌跟心血管疾病，讓其發生的機率增加。我相信行政院、環境部也都有看到這一點，所以在你們的報告裡面，你們有刻意去強調政府這幾年的努力已經讓空污減少，這個是報告講的，說我們從2016年到2023年空污排放已經減少了六成五。但是院長，請你看我現在秀出來的這份資料，這份資料也是台電給我的，我們跟台電要很久了，在我要質詢的前一刻終於給我，我本來是要來罵為什麼不給，但它給我了，可能讓我沒機會消化。我們很簡單地看一下，你就看協和電廠的部分，105年PM10是43.3；112年，它的PM10是35.8。請問一下，它有減少六成五嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實不能只看電廠，是要看一個區域的面積，要用環境部所有標準的測站來講。"],["葉委員元之：看區域面，所以你的六成五怎麼算出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是電廠自己量的，這個……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！所以我現在是根據電廠，我現在光看協和電廠所排放出來的PM10，105年是43.3，到112年只降到35.8，就沒有到六成五啊！所以我高度懷疑你們這份報告就是在粉飾太平。好，部長等一下，再來，除了這個六成五的問題之外，院長有沒有發現111年到112年的PM10或PM2.5，各個電廠都有上升的趨勢？譬如說協和電廠，110年度PM10是30.4，但到了112年是35.8，成長得非常地快；PM2.5的部分，協和電廠110年度是10.8，到112年成長到13.2，那你可以看各個電廠，不管是PM10或PM2.5，到112年實際上都有上升趨勢，我現在不知道113年是怎樣，所以我們的空污沒有你們講的控制得這麼好。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個要看環境部的標準空污，一個縣市、一個縣市空品區或是臺中的整體來看，不是看一個電廠。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我們剛剛秀給你的醫學報告講的都是懸浮微粒，都是PM，不管是PM10還是PM2.5，PM2.5或PM10就是會造成身體的危害嘛！當然環境部可以找很多其他的指標，把懸浮微物對環境的影響稀釋掉，但我現在跟你談的就是懸浮微物嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：要看我們環境部在各地標準的測站，這個是台電自己量的，那我……"],["葉委員元之：所以台電量的跟環境部的不一樣？那環境部是不是在粉飾太平啊？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有粉飾太平，我們是標準手動去量PM2.5。"],["葉委員元之：好啦！你現在跟我吵這個東西也沒有什麼意義，為什麼？因為我們現在環境當中的PM就是很多，它就是有對身體造成影響。","接下來我們來看能源配比的部分，根據提供給我們的資料，到了2030年，最新的能源配比要變成綠電30%、燃氣50%、燃煤20%，沒錯吧？實際上，在2030年最新的能源配比還是有高達70%的火力發電，火力發電要造成空污就是比較容易啊！火力發電要淨零就是比較困難。"],["卓院長榮泰：70%裡面的50%是屬於比較低碳的天然氣發電。"],["葉委員元之：低碳這個到底有沒有低碳，因為現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：有啦！"],["葉委員元之：行政院提供給我的資料……"],["彭部長啓明：有，少了快要一半。"],["葉委員元之：你們提供給我的資料我都是打一個大問號啦，就像剛剛我在跟你討論PM的問題一樣，我拿到的資料跟你拿給我的資料就是不一樣嘛！再來，雖然感覺上好像……我看到你們給我們的報告，最近因為核三廠停機算是修整，所以現在臺灣實質上是非核家園啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有核電的……"],["葉委員元之：對，然後你說現在再生能源的發電大概到十幾趴，在沒有核能的情況之下是十幾趴，所以直接推論說2025年的非核家園，我們的再生能源一樣可以達到十幾趴，沒錯吧？這是報告裡面寫的。"],["卓院長榮泰：做一個推論而已，這也是一個目標。"],["葉委員元之：也是目標嘛！但是我要跟院長講，其實這個目標過度推論，為什麼？因為現在是10月多，我們的風力發電就是比較容易發電，到明年5月的時候，風力發電就沒有那麼容易發電。第二就是明年的用電量一定大增，那你在核電退場的情況之下，你的綠電能不能補上，我打一個很大的問號，所以這個報告裡面，我覺得這也是一個過度推論。還有就是現在大家說到底能源配比是多少都是一個平均值，可是實際上你去看晚上，像我們看到上週五的發電狀況，火力發電加起來接近90%，今天早上我們也特別去看了台電的發電配比，火力發電一樣是91%，這個代表什麼？代表如果火力發電會比較容易造成二氧化碳或者造成空氣污染的話，晚上、早上其實情況是最嚴重的，所以某種程度來講，我們也不能只看它的平均值，平均值就是有一點粉飾太平，院長同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然你要看它那個時候的發電量的量是多少，可能平均值高一點，可是如果發電量在清晨、半夜是比較少的，那就不會產生委員所說的那樣。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！但是實際上它的比例是高的嘛！然後還有一個，我現在就來挑戰一下，到了2030年，你們所謂的能源配比達得到嗎？現在告訴我們的就是我剛剛講的，燃氣50%、再生能源要30%、燃煤要20%，可是我看到你們報告裡面給我的數據，這全部都是引用你報告的數據，你們自己提到，2016年再生能源裝置是4.73GW，到了2023年年底，等於是七年多，我們的裝置容量到17.96GW，換句話說，裝置容量大概成長了快四倍，可是發電量成長多少呢？發電量只從127.3億度增加到268.7億度，發電量只增加兩倍，為什麼裝置容量增加快四倍，發電量只有兩倍呢？因為我們大家都知道，再生能源能夠發電的時間很有限嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：有間歇性。"],["葉委員元之：對，很有限嘛！晚上就沒有光電或者是夏天可能風力發電就比較弱，我現在想要問院長的是，為什麼你就這麼有把握到了2030年我們的再生能源可以到30%？因為我幫你算過，快接近八年你的發電量才成長了兩倍，2030距今大概是六年，因為今年也快過完了，大概是五年多的時間，五年多你的發電量起碼要到今年的兩倍以上，你的再生能源才有可能達到30%。過去七、八年，民進黨政府已經上窮碧落下黃泉了，去弄那麼多的光電廠，臺南很多人都在罵，以前謝龍介開玩笑說黑面琵鷺到了臺南要戴太陽眼鏡，然後還造成溫室效應，已經弄成這個樣子了，漁電共生、農電共生，現在發展已經有瓶頸，但是你又那麼有把握說，過去八年完全不會造成我們的瓶頸，未來的五年多有辦法讓我們的再生能源可以成長到現在的兩倍，你的信心是來自於哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：重點答復委員，我們拿風電來看，我們已經從示範區到潛力區，到現在已經到區塊發展了，所以這個發電增加量一定會比過去快而且多，而且比較穩定，其他能源也是，我們小水力發電……"],["葉委員元之：等一下，所以風力發電，你認為發電量會成長幾倍？"],["卓院長榮泰：事實上是如此。"],["葉委員元之：成長幾倍？因為我們要講數據嘛！如果你要達到2030年要30%的話，你的發電量起碼要現在再生能源的兩倍，所以你……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個沒有線性關係。"],["葉委員元之：那是什麼關係？沒有，我講發電量！那幾倍嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：它是每一個不同的時間所下去做的工程的量，來決定幾年以後能夠產出……"],["葉委員元之：對，可是問題是我們過去八年已經做了很多工程……"],["郭部長智輝：這個沒有線性關係，沒有線性，也沒有函數關係。"],["葉委員元之：你跟我講哪一個？沒關係，那你跟我講哪一個工程可以造成這樣的線性發展？你跟我講哪一個工程？"],["郭部長智輝：我就講沒有線性關係啊！"],["葉委員元之：那你一定要有工程，發電量才有可能曲線上升嘛！你現在就直接告訴我哪一些工程會造成發電量曲線上升……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們……"],["葉委員元之：我給你時間講嘛！你講嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們過去第二個階段跟現在第三個階段所出來的量、所做風機的量是比較大……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，部長，你就針對我的問題回答，我現在就是問你，因為我也不是說你一定達不到，只是說你們訂的目標就我看來，我覺得我不曉得你要怎麼達成那個路徑，你現在直接把路徑告訴我們。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員講一個數字，風力發電2026年我們希望能夠達到5.5GW，到2028年會達到7.9GW，到2030年我們的目標是達到10.9GW，這樣幾乎有達到委員剛剛所說的。但剛剛部長講的……"],["葉委員元之：那光電咧？"],["卓院長榮泰：光電在2026年我們希望達到21.2GW，2028年應該會達到26.2GW，2030年的目標是31.2GW。"],["葉委員元之：那你就沒有兩倍啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有兩倍，我還有其他的。"],["葉委員元之：還有什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：還有發展水力……"],["葉委員元之：我們一個一個來算嘛！剛剛院長講風力有兩倍嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們要發展水力還有其他的……"],["葉委員元之：那光電只有一點五倍。"],["卓院長榮泰：比方說我們如果有長足的發展，地熱也是一個可期待的項目，當然它現在還在試探的……"],["葉委員元之：所以地熱不確定嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們要全力的發展……"],["葉委員元之：我知道啦！我們也會支持你們全力發展，我現在是說目標訂出來總是要有路徑完成，也不是喊價嘛！就像過去蔡政府喊2025非核家園，現在就做不到就跳票了嘛！本來說綠電要到20%啊！根據你們的資料，我都沒有去挑戰你們數字喔！你們也才16%而已，所以要告訴我們你要怎麼做，我們也支持你啊！可是你不能喊了一個數字達不到，我現在就問具體的路徑嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們會把這個路徑表示清楚。"],["葉委員元之：表示清楚？所以今天來做這個專報，你沒有準備資料就來報告，還要表示清楚？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，因為它沒有線性關係，所以我們就說……"],["葉委員元之：因為今天的報告叫能源配比，能源配比我們一定會問你怎麼做到這個能源配比嘛！這是基本的問題嘛！院長。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們現在跟你報告我們怎麼做啊！不是有跟你報告了嗎？"],["葉委員元之：我就是看不到啊！所以才會在這邊問啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我剛剛報告的數字都在裡面。"],["葉委員元之：沒有啊！我都看過了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以事後陪委員看一次。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第15號謝龍介委員質詢。","時間暫停，報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽的是柯志恩委員特別推薦來的，台灣文教經貿交流協會所有好朋友，歡迎，熱情歡迎。","謝龍介委員，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f346679b78cbf678aa76e9140c2b1893b4ab0e781c795f8f664555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"15:18:00 - 15:33:42","影片長度":"00:15:42","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T15:18:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T15:33:42+08:00","duration":942,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":8.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.77221875,"end":10.425968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.763468750000001,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.14721875,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.851593750000003,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.724718750000001,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.74159375,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.30659375,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.234718750000003,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.91784375,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.301593750000002,"end":24.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.043468750000002,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.157218750000002,"end":38.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.41721875,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.336593750000006,"end":43.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.05784375,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.39096875,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.27659375,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.45784375,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.533468750000004,"end":52.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.91721875,"end":55.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.51159375,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.899718750000005,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.84034375,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.26534375,"end":67.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.91909375,"end":77.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.01471875,"end":77.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.09909375000001,"end":77.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.31846875000001,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.69346875000001,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.58784375,"end":86.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.44784375,"end":86.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.46471875,"end":86.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.48159375,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.12284375,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.51909375000001,"end":91.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.26971875000001,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.24409375,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.72471875000001,"end":99.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.93096875,"end":100.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.48784375000001,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.69409375000001,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.55471875,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.85846875,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.96784375,"end":107.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.54159375,"end":108.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.62159375,"end":109.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.32596875,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.87846875000001,"end":112.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.99221875,"end":115.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.52346875,"end":126.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.48784375000001,"end":132.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.18346875,"end":131.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.88784375,"end":134.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.93409375000002,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.90846875,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.13096875000002,"end":147.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.68721875,"end":149.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.26909375,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.77096875,"end":153.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.82971875,"end":157.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.64346875,"end":161.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.33909375000002,"end":162.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":165.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.59159375000002,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.60409375,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.74284375000002,"end":170.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.82284375,"end":173.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.24846875,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.65346875,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.04971875,"end":179.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.49659375000002,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.66096875000002,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.89221875,"end":188.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.74409375000002,"end":189.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.77346875,"end":192.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.14846875,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.99596875,"end":201.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":203.54346875000002,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.07909375000003,"end":206.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.36971875,"end":209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.58471875,"end":214.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.10284375,"end":218.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.22034375,"end":226.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.54409375,"end":227.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.84346875000003,"end":233.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.93096875,"end":237.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.98534375000003,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.85846875000001,"end":240.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.78659375,"end":242.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.83284375000002,"end":261.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.23471875,"end":263.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.21346875,"end":264.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.86721875,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.03596875,"end":267.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.53346875,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.55721875,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.34909375,"end":295.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.83721875000003,"end":294.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.78221875,"end":297.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.11096875000004,"end":300.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.99659375000005,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.10971875,"end":309.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.73784375,"end":311.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.93159375000005,"end":314.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.34471875,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.21659375,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.84846875,"end":332.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.38409375000003,"end":333.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.51471875000004,"end":335.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.92784375,"end":337.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.81784375,"end":339.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.40409375,"end":340.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.04096875000005,"end":342.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.47534375000004,"end":347.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.70659375,"end":350.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.48659375,"end":351.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.52034375,"end":353.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.02221875000004,"end":353.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.29221875,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.19034375,"end":360.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.49346875000003,"end":362.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.20221875000004,"end":370.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.57221875000005,"end":372.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.23846875000004,"end":377.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.47409375,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.21596875,"end":387.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.09284375000004,"end":387.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.68346875000003,"end":387.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.70034375,"end":389.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.35409375,"end":394.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.10846875000004,"end":396.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.99846875000003,"end":404.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.86284375,"end":403.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.22096875000005,"end":411.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.94659375000003,"end":404.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.13221875000005,"end":405.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.93284375,"end":413.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.10971875,"end":415.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.42971875,"end":419.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.94846875,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":421.73721875,"end":425.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":425.51721875000004,"end":425.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.66909375,"end":430.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":430.90034375000005,"end":431.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.79471875,"end":436.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.68846875,"end":443.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.64096875,"end":444.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.24846875000003,"end":445.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.90221875000003,"end":445.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.91909375,"end":445.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.93596875000003,"end":445.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.95284375000006,"end":446.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.50971875000005,"end":447.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.26909375,"end":457.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.96346875,"end":459.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":459.90846875000005,"end":461.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":461.02221875000004,"end":461.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.03909375,"end":462.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":461.88284375,"end":466.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.42284375,"end":462.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.28721875,"end":471.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.21034375000005,"end":472.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":472.76721875000004,"end":472.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.78409375,"end":475.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.43346875000003,"end":479.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.09096875000006,"end":481.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.59284375000004,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.33909375,"end":488.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.32596875,"end":489.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.86159375000005,"end":490.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.80659375000005,"end":491.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":491.88659375000003,"end":495.31221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":495.97034375000004,"end":497.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.06721875000005,"end":509.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.58846875000006,"end":514.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.81971875,"end":516.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.54096875,"end":517.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.08096875,"end":519.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.88221875,"end":528.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":529.5009687500001,"end":530.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":531.4753437500001,"end":535.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":535.60971875,"end":539.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.74846875,"end":541.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.0390937500001,"end":544.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.36346875,"end":546.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.3972187500001,"end":548.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.9453437500001,"end":549.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":550.1728437500001,"end":552.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.4678437499999,"end":552.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":552.53534375,"end":555.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.8259687500001,"end":556.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.33221875,"end":560.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.09096875,"end":561.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.23846875,"end":563.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":563.9597187500001,"end":566.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.84971875,"end":570.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.7434687500001,"end":573.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.6965937500001,"end":574.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.6753437500001,"end":577.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.35409375,"end":578.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.21471875,"end":579.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.82221875,"end":580.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.90221875,"end":582.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.1340937500001,"end":582.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.5053437500001,"end":583.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.5347187500001,"end":584.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.96471875,"end":586.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.94346875,"end":586.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":587.09534375,"end":587.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.12909375,"end":588.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.49596875,"end":589.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.5590937500001,"end":606.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.1303437500001,"end":607.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.09221875,"end":610.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":611.74971875,"end":616.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.4072187500001,"end":616.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.62221875,"end":628.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.2490937499999,"end":630.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.7847187500001,"end":638.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.7834687500001,"end":639.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":640.4878437500001,"end":654.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.3897187499999,"end":647.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.55846875,"end":647.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.03846875,"end":656.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.89034375,"end":660.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.0078437500001,"end":661.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.04159375,"end":662.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":663.01596875,"end":664.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.56846875,"end":666.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.3572187500001,"end":667.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.69034375,"end":670.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.94721875,"end":687.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.7209687500001,"end":689.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":690.87659375,"end":694.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.6059687500001,"end":696.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":696.8840937500001,"end":696.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.90096875,"end":697.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.6940937500001,"end":698.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.9765937500001,"end":709.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.3547187500001,"end":712.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.6284687500001,"end":713.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.52284375,"end":726.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":726.7022187500002,"end":733.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":733.90784375,"end":739.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.9922187500001,"end":736.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.0378437500001,"end":740.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":740.5903437500001,"end":740.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.09659375,"end":743.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.5772187500002,"end":745.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.5009687500001,"end":746.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.2222187500001,"end":748.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.8759687500001,"end":750.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.52971875,"end":751.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.7109687500001,"end":753.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.8034687500001,"end":758.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.68034375,"end":762.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.2365937500001,"end":765.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.8015937499999,"end":766.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.10096875,"end":768.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.78846875,"end":769.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.9697187500001,"end":771.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":772.2140937500001,"end":773.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":773.6653437500001,"end":775.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.3147187500001,"end":777.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":777.8840937500001,"end":779.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.47034375,"end":782.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":780.02721875,"end":780.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":782.6259687500001,"end":788.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":789.0890937500001,"end":798.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":793.39221875,"end":793.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.54409375,"end":793.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":798.58971875,"end":804.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":804.91784375,"end":815.5828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.0047187500002,"end":817.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":817.3884687500001,"end":818.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.9072187500001,"end":826.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.43346875,"end":829.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.15034375,"end":832.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.4578437500002,"end":835.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":835.9678437500002,"end":872.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":840.52409375,"end":840.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.54096875,"end":840.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":840.7434687500001,"end":840.8953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.02596875,"end":842.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":849.67034375,"end":850.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.9778437500001,"end":853.5515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.5515937500002,"end":853.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.91346875,"end":860.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":861.92159375,"end":862.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":872.6709687500002,"end":878.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":879.06659375,"end":885.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":885.47909375,"end":895.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.77284375,"end":899.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.97471875,"end":900.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.0422187500001,"end":904.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":904.9865937500001,"end":905.4422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":906.1172187500001,"end":909.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":909.40784375,"end":913.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":913.20471875,"end":914.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":914.50409375,"end":916.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":916.17471875,"end":917.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":917.55846875,"end":920.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":920.6297187500002,"end":921.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":921.64221875,"end":925.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":925.75971875,"end":925.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.7934687500001,"end":925.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":926.18159375,"end":930.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":931.63221875,"end":931.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":932.17221875,"end":933.5559687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.864,"end":19.42,"text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關所長官員、在場的媒體記者女士先生我們有請我們卓院長、還有劉竹偉、郭部長、以及陳部長麻煩再請卓院長陳部長陳部長劉竹偉農業部陳部長"},{"start":28.246,"end":55.625,"text":"總委員好院長好在其他三位部長到位之前在今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理而且進口再生能源要規劃最適方案在此之前這幾天一直有個議題繼續在延燒就是高鐵延伸案那我想在這裡呢記得在上次我質詢院長的時候我有提到一個台南案院長說你沒聽過嗎當初我們在第一次接觸到這個案的報告裡面就是四個案"},{"start":56.55,"end":79.308,"text":"就是燕巢案、左營案、高雄案那我要提醒大家其實呢它原本叫做燕巢案那這個有這個案子請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下好不好喔燕巢案是不是燕巢案那另外呢我們也看到大家的討論都在於什麼路線要用哪一條路線其實關切的都是工程的施工期程還有拆遷的問題對不對但是我認為高鐵呢另外要考慮後續的營運因為"},{"start":81.653,"end":106.007,"text":"路線的選擇會影響到後面的營運的可行性這一點也請你們研究的評估好不好好的第三個我認為高鐵應該與台灣來同步永續發展所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線新幹線它怎麼永續發展呢首先第一它會定期的更新列車跟車廂升級目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年了下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來"},{"start":106.991,"end":131.233,"text":"第二,要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸所以你看,儘管北海道人口減少日本的新幹線還是一無反顧地繼續開到北海道就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能,你同不同意?交通先行,發展社區,這應該是一個非常正確的方向"},{"start":132.935,"end":133.976,"text":"投入比較多的建設資金"},{"start":152.078,"end":173.528,"text":"藍煤有6座,核電有3個機組,記住這個12、6跟3,目前當分別占比呢,燃氣的占將近4乘4,藍煤的占3乘4,我有注意到他們成本差不多都3毛5,3塊5,但是呢,總共啊,大概要花了3000多億去買天然氣,2000多億去買煤炭,國務長大概是這個意思。"},{"start":175.467,"end":201.6,"text":"但是我們看核電他目前我們看到的他大概三個機組佔我們佔了7%那大概要用掉200多億那我有注意到這些錢花到哪裡去以燃煤跟燃氣大概國際貿易商供應另外核電廠後續的核燃料棒這些維運那我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低才一塊三毛多部長你覺得問題出在哪裡"},{"start":203.615,"end":218.485,"text":"我們在這個外面的後市成本沒有計算對那個核後端沒有去計算而且目前核電廠呢他的所有的固定投資已經攤提完了他現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜最便宜的不可能再便宜了是不是這樣"},{"start":219.246,"end":233.252,"text":"好那部長、院長我們往下看齁但是另外呢我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應光電是其中之一光電只佔不到5%成本呢4塊1毛3你覺得是貴還是便宜部長、院長你覺得這個4塊多便宜還是貴"},{"start":238.018,"end":238.038,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":265.067,"end":265.888,"text":"發展新的能源綠燈蟑螂"},{"start":286.798,"end":299.753,"text":"確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形所以我們也從歷年下來也相當多的案件現在正在偵辦當中我告訴院長原因往下看因為我們看看以國發會的大樓來看國發會的大樓的發電大概每單位的面積的發電量是625度一坪"},{"start":306.209,"end":308.409,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":330.868,"end":359.608,"text":"院長有沒有看出問題來了我再講一次我們的燃氣機組才12座我的燃煤機組才6座我們的核電機組才3座好不好管理相對好管理所以當你發現這麼多3000多個地主要去做光電發展的時候這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端我覺得是土地使用上是的所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中跟我們經濟部台電營運有沒有關聯"},{"start":361.598,"end":361.718,"text":"主席"},{"start":377.652,"end":392.922,"text":"現在的農電政策、農電共生供在不利耕地的建設之上,請問目前農地上的光電會影響到我們的農業生產嗎?請問部長。跟委員報告,現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2164公…還有沒有開發光電的餘裕?"},{"start":395.303,"end":414.961,"text":"現在目前整個我們漁電工生跟不利更多區裡面使用大概只有只佔的百分之十還有百分之九十的空間是可以利用的還有很多空間好有人說有位董事長說如果台灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發作的話台灣六分之一要蓋光電板郭部長你同意這樣的說法嗎謝謝陳部長請回"},{"start":421.766,"end":423.006,"text":"如何避免光電侵蝕農地確保糧食生產?請責成陳部長確實把握。"},{"start":443.786,"end":456.998,"text":"我們第一個優先就是農業優先是的第二個因為未來的我們的能源的使用發電裝置越來越多而且很分散如何管理避免弊端各位責任經濟部跟國發會還有其他的單位共同來研議呢"},{"start":458.933,"end":461.195,"text":"發展AI一定要用SM嗎?"},{"start":481.873,"end":509.005,"text":"除了規達這,你說還有10座,2013年還設置10座,為什麼科技巨擴多鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢?郭部長為什麼?因為它在建設會比較快啦,這時間會比較快。是,你看嘛,就是我這下一個,三個問題嘛,它量體小,施工迅速,然後呢成本低,所以呢我要用多少電我就自己放幾座就好了,不用去跟政府求,院長你知道原因了吧?"},{"start":509.833,"end":534.908,"text":"這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼形容SMR但是請問院長剛剛有問喔SMR有沒有核廢料還是有還是有嘛甚至剛剛有張委員說更多嘛所以說SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應科技巨擘使用了嗎部長你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎他們不一定是用SMR他過去的過去的這個核電"},{"start":542.49,"end":562.88,"text":"國際企業要不要加入RE100?國際企業要嗎?他的供應鏈要百分之百綠能嘛但是有一些巨擘啊他在他自己的territory裡面不需要用到RE100對他除了自己不需要RE100之外他的供應鏈需要RE100的他們就不能用什麼那請問一下核電算是綠電嗎?"},{"start":564.443,"end":583.884,"text":"河電是綠電嗎?到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電所以台灣沒有處方核電、核廢料的條件台灣沒有不用綠電的條件院長是不是同意?台灣沒有放核電、核廢料的條件台灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件"},{"start":586.344,"end":610.62,"text":"這兩者都對兩者都對好謝謝那我們來看一下最近的部長有一番發言的大家聽到了用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電光電拿來台灣我請教院長你有沒有聽過新加坡澳洲要建4300公里的海底電纜把澳洲的光電送到新加坡有沒有聽過有聽到這樣的一個那如果300公里都不可能你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是起效的"},{"start":612.046,"end":639.436,"text":"隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作應該是一個必然的趨勢是的澳洲他在北部的沙漠有12400平方公頃發的光電可以當台積電的4成使用可以6G但是為什麼新加坡要這麼多電新加坡有台積電嗎大發展AI嘛新加坡為了發展AI需要電他願意投資來4300公里拉這個電請問郭部長你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎"},{"start":640.78,"end":662.476,"text":"新加坡他們也是多元綠能啦這個只是他其中一個大概總的量是六七一但是新加坡他有另外一個想法他是從新加坡然後要整個東南亞他們要做一個區域網路好那部長我打斷你綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠青綠安送給新加坡呢"},{"start":663.055,"end":685.821,"text":"那個成本可能更高因為澳洲沒有水啦沒有淡水往下看所以呢我們比起來看看歐洲的能源轉型配合原有油田專有平台他們要轉型為離岸風機成為能源島他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴轉化回也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴所以他們就普遍的設離岸風機也設了氫能島院長知道這樣的一個國際趨勢嗎院長知道北歐的這個趨勢啦齁"},{"start":690.936,"end":696.328,"text":"沒有很清楚但知道說各國的發展這個都是一個選項我請你去研究請部長去研究"},{"start":697.742,"end":726.241,"text":"河南的路德丹他現在就用了包括綠電包括義太岸的裝用碼頭把綠岸變成綠青到氫能儲槽他可以直接用來發電使用有給氫能車使用他也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地我覺得路德丹、河南想要成為歐洲綠能的一個輸入港你覺得台灣有可能成為亞洲除了資產管理中心之外也成為亞洲的一個綠能的管理中心嗎"},{"start":726.721,"end":747.368,"text":"我們現在比較大的問題是綠清綠安他的輸送對以他的接收對我們來講都還是一個比較但是陸特丹在做了對陸特丹在做可能要從這個經驗上多去攝取國際上的這個經驗我們來往看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案有前任部長跟我說臺灣的綠電啊車價就不夠了不可以讓你拍官啦臺灣喔"},{"start":751.77,"end":774.471,"text":"光電、風電拿來直接用到就沒有可能再去變成濾清再去變成濾安使用部長在點頭啦那表示什麼臺電的濾...臺灣的濾電不能自給自足要從國外輸入那請問國外輸入是不是有三種方法海底電纜還有呢管路運輸液態的濾安或者用船舶運輸部長是不是這樣欸...完全正確那請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入濾能的條件"},{"start":783.038,"end":798.327,"text":"我們現在在看這個科技的發展科技的發展如果海底電纜來講的話大概跟那個距離有關係跟那個漏水有關係他現在目前來看海底電纜的成本跟用船運的成本大概差不多"},{"start":798.607,"end":815.223,"text":"好,電纜跟船員差不多,來,待會劉主委會講,來,等一下我再給劉主委發表一下,往下看來。但是呢,我們現在呢,要發展進口濾清來應對台灣的濾電不足啊,其實呢,我有注意到,要請國會注意,請院長責成國會注意,現在我們有後端的應用,"},{"start":816.024,"end":834.409,"text":"包括輕能車、包括家輕站、包括我們家庭各方面使用的濾清,除了用濾清去發電之外,可以只用濾清,對不對?這些後段的配套有一個根本的致命傷。如果前端沒有接受濾清或濾安的港部設施,我們能不能做?"},{"start":834.409,"end":835.069,"text":"劉主委你覺得呢?"},{"start":836.465,"end":852.687,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為清的安定性比較低所以這幾年的趨勢是把清轉化成安然後進來以後那台灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的安所以從儲存到運輸台灣都有一定的能力"},{"start":853.027,"end":853.047,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":872.737,"end":899.771,"text":"我也跟委員報告一下新加坡其實最近有一個方案已經簽約就是他跟印尼直接買綠電然後拉電纜到他那裡去所以這幾條路線都是可行的所以台灣需要綠電自給自足不夠我們要從外面用電纜管路還有船舶運輸對不對對好所以呢現在剛剛講到了剛剛主委講到各種濾清濾能的運用端台灣都在發展了"},{"start":900.211,"end":902.332,"text":"臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?臺灣港口是否做好用船舶接收氫能呢?"},{"start":917.708,"end":932.41,"text":"報告委員抱歉我們現在準備應該是在接收天然氣是的那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢所以我最後實驗到我兩個結論請看第一是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散的弊端的管理方法可以嗎第二個請盤點"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":190,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（15時18分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員及在場的媒體記者女士先生。我們有請卓院長，還有劉主委、郭部長及農業部陳部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長、陳部長、劉主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好。在其他三位部長到位之前，今天我要談的是新能源建立分散式的供電管理，而且進口再生能源要規劃最適方案，但在此之前，這幾天一直有個議題繼續延燒，那就是高鐵延伸案。記得上次在這裡我質詢過院長，我提到有一個臺南案，院長說沒聽過，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初我們在第一次接觸到這個報告時，裡面就是4個案，即燕巢案、左營案、高雄案和潮州案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要提醒大家，其實它原本叫燕巢案，也就是有這個案子，請院長回去指示交通部回顧一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：燕巢案是不是？"],["鍾委員佳濱：燕巢案。另外，我們看到大家的討論都集中在要用哪一條路線，其實關切的都是工程的施工期程，還有拆遷的問題，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我認為高鐵另外要考慮的是後續的營運，因為路線的選擇會影響到後面營運的可行性，這一點也請你們嚴格評估，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三個，我認為高鐵應該與臺灣同步永續發展，所以我們可以參考日本的新幹線，新幹線要怎麼永續發展呢？首先第一，它會定期更新列車跟車廂的升級，目前我們34列車廂已經用超過16年，下一批12組不知道什麼時候才會來。第二，要考慮到服務範圍的擴大以及路軌的延伸，所以你看，儘管北海道人口減少，日本的新幹線還是義無反顧的繼續開到北海道，就是為了透過這個方式讓日本的新幹線可以永續發展，也兼顧到整個日本全國的軌道運能，你同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：交通先行，發展社區，這應該是一個非常正確的方向……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們要投入比較多的建設資金。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，好，我接下來就請院長可以用這個方式，我明天會請教交通部長。","我們來談今天的能源政策，請教一下郭部長，我這邊給你看一個2023年發購電量的結構跟成本，目前我們的燃氣發電有12座、燃煤有6座、核電有3個機組，記住這12、6跟3，目前占比分別為燃氣占將近四成四、燃煤占三成四，我有注意到它們的成本差不多，都三塊五，但是總共大概要花三千多億去買天然氣、兩千多億去買煤炭，郭部長，大概是這個意思？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯吧？但是我們看核電，目前我們看到的，3個機組占比為7%，大概要用掉兩百多億，我有注意到這些錢花到哪裡去，以燃煤跟燃氣來看，大概國際貿易商供應，另外，核電廠後續的核燃料棒的這些維運，我有注意到核電廠為什麼成本這麼低，才一塊三毛多，部長，你覺得問題出在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是它的一個……"],["郭部長智輝：後面的購置成本沒有計算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，核後端沒有去計算，而且目前核電廠的所有固定投資已經攤提完了，現在這一塊三毛八是最便宜、最便宜的，不可能再便宜了，是不是這樣？好，院長，我們往下看，但是另外我們看到現在能源轉型有要分散式的供應，光電是其中之一，光電只占不到5%，成本是四塊一毛三，你覺得是貴還是便宜？院長，你覺得這個四塊多是便宜還是貴？"],["卓院長榮泰：就光電目前這樣的發展，應該不是貴的啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是貴的……"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是合理的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很清楚，沒有錯，因為部長曾經說，在菲律賓拉條電纜把菲律賓的光電輸過來。人家笑什麼？笑部長說，菲律賓的光電一度到五塊錢。我才赫然發現，原來光電在菲律賓比臺灣還貴啊！所以光電的成本較高，這是本來的，但是會越來越低，可是不因為成本高，世界各國就不採納，院長，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們急需要發展新的能源。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們看一下光電的案場，包括農電共生、不利耕地、機關用地的屋頂還有廠房的屋頂，包括住宅、商辦等等需要地方政府許可。但是我們最近也看到一個問題，很多弊案都跑出來，外界都說什麼綠電蟑螂，你覺得怎麼樣，為什麼會造成這個問題？請問院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：確實有一些案子在執行的過程當中發生了不法的情形，所以歷年下來也有相當多的案件正在偵辦當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴院長原因，我以國發會的大樓來看，國發會大樓的發電大概每單位面積的發電量是625度一坪，用全國發電量光電的總量去換算，大概全國要二十萬六千多坪才能發出這麼多電，如果按照目前我手上的統計，這些自然人所持有的農地或者土地或者法人所持有的土地，平均算起來，一個地主大概有65坪。換言之，要發這麼多電，所需要的土地面積大概是三千多個地主或經營者。院長，有沒有看出問題來了？我再講一次，我們的燃氣機組才12座、燃煤機組才6座、核電機組才3座，好不好管理？相對好管理，所以當你發現三千多個地主要去做光電發展的時候，這些弊端到底是採購的弊端還是土地的弊端？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得是土地使用上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以都是發生在地方政府的申請許可當中，跟經濟部、台電營運有沒有關聯？沒有關聯；跟發展綠電有沒有關聯？沒有關聯，純粹是分散式，我們未來發現光電的經營者因為眾多且分散就很難管理，政府要發展管理的方法，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們繼續談另外一個課題，要請陳部長上來一下。現在的農電政策，農電共生用在不利耕地的建置之上，請問目前農地上的光電會影響到我們的農業生產嗎？請問部長。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在我們規劃出來的不利耕作區大概有2,164公……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有沒有開發光電的餘裕？"],["陳部長駿季：目前整個農電共生跟不利耕作區裡面使用大概只占了10%而已……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有很多面積可以開發光電嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：還有90%的空間是可以利用的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有很多空間？"],["陳部長駿季：90%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有位董事長說，如果臺灣要讓台積電有足夠的綠電都用光電發的話，臺灣六分之一要蓋光電板。郭部長，你同意這樣的說法嗎？謝謝陳部長，請回。"],["郭部長智輝：剛才委員是說台積電要用太陽能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：台積電的電統統用光電板發，臺灣有六分之一要蓋光電板，有這樣需要嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是沒有必要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有必要，好。但是我現在要提醒的，就是兩個結論，請院長指示：如何避免光電侵蝕農地，以確保糧食生產？請責成陳部長這點要確實地把握，跟國人承諾，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們第一個優先就是農漁優先。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。第二個，因為未來我們能源的使用，發電裝置越來越多，而且很分散，如何管理、避免弊端，可不可以責成經濟部跟國發會還有其他的單位共同來研議呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，這個制度面我們來討論。"],["郭部長智輝：我們都是多元的綠電，所以不會只是都放在光電上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，但是因為光電的地主眾多，所以我們要取得它發電的同時要做好管理，同意吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。接下來我們繼續看，有一種說法是發展AI一定要用SMR，剛剛張委員也提到了，請問部長，除了輝達之外，你說還有2030年還要設置10座，為什麼科技巨擘都鎖定小型模組化的核能反應爐呢？郭部長，為什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：因為它在建設會比較快，時間會比較快。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我現在有3個問題：它量體小，施工迅速，然後成本低。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要用多少電，就自己放幾座就好了，不用去跟政府求，院長知道原因了吧。這些科技巨擘為什麼那麼勤用SMR？但是請問院長，剛剛有問喔，SMR有沒有核廢料？"],["卓院長榮泰：還是有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是有，甚至剛剛張委員說更多嘛。所以SMR真的已經成為商轉來供應這些科技巨擘使用了嗎？部長，你覺得在2030年前看得到這些科技巨擘真的使用SMR來發電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他們不一定是用SMR，其實過去的核電、過去的方式去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：用原有的傳統核電廠？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是問題來了，國際企業要不要加入RE100？國際企業要嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：它就是要加入RE100……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它的供應鏈要百分之百綠能嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：但是有一些巨擘在它自己的territory裡面不需要用到RE100。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，除了自己不需要RE100之外，它的供應鏈需要RE100的，他們就不能用什麼……請問一下，核電算是綠電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：核電是可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是綠電嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：到目前不會被歐盟承認是綠電，所以臺灣沒有貯放核電核廢料的條件，臺灣沒有不用綠電的條件，院長是不是同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有放核電核廢料的條件……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺灣也沒有拒絕綠電的條件。"],["卓院長榮泰：這兩者都對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩者都對，好，謝謝。那我們來看一下，最近部長有一番發言，大家聽到了，要用300公里的海底電纜把菲律賓發的綠電、光電拿來臺灣。我請教院長，你有沒有聽過新加坡跟澳洲要建4,300公里的海底電纜，把澳洲的光電送到新加坡？有沒有聽過？"],["卓院長榮泰：有，有聽到這樣的一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果300公里都不可能，你覺得澳洲跟新加坡是發瘋了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：隨著各種技術的進步跟跨國的合作，這應該是一個必然的趨勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，澳洲在北部的沙漠有1萬2,400公頃，發的光電可以當台積電的四成使用，發電量達到6GW。但是為什麼新加坡要那麼多電？新加坡有台積電嗎？它要發展AI嘛。新加坡為了發展AI而需要電，它願意投資4,300公里拉這個電纜。請問郭部長，你覺得新加坡這樣的想法切合實際嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：新加坡他們也是多元綠能，這個只是其中一個，大概總的量是6GW。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["郭部長智輝：但是新加坡有另外一個想法，它是從新加坡、然後到整個東南亞，他們要做一個區域網絡。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，我打斷你，綠電難道一定要用電纜嗎？澳洲為什麼不能把它變成綠氫、綠氨送給新加坡呢？"],["郭部長智輝：那個成本可能更高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為澳洲沒有水、沒有淡水。所以我們一起來看看歐洲的能源轉型，北海原有油田鑽油平臺現在要轉型為離岸風機，成為能源島，他們把過去對石化燃料的依賴加以轉換，也減少對於俄羅斯天然氣的依賴，所以他們就普遍地設離岸風機，也設了氫能島。院長知道這樣的國際趨勢嗎？院長，知道北歐的這個趨勢啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有很清楚，但知道各國的發展，這個都是一個選項之一。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，我請你去研究，請部長去研究一下。荷蘭的鹿特丹現在就是用了包括綠電、包括液態氨的專用碼頭，把綠氨變成綠氫，儲存到氫能儲槽，它可以直接用來發電使用、給氫能車使用，也可以透過網路運送到歐洲各地。我覺得鹿特丹、荷蘭想要成為歐洲綠能的輸入港，你覺得臺灣有沒有可能除了成為亞洲資產管理中心之外，也成為亞洲一個綠能的管理中心？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在比較大的問題是綠氫、綠氨的輸送以及接收，這對我們來講都還是一個比較……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是鹿特丹在做了。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們可能要多去攝取國際上的經驗。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下臺灣進口綠電的最適方案，有前任部長跟我說，臺灣的綠電生吃就不夠了，沒辦法讓你曬乾，臺灣光電、風電拿來直接用掉，就沒有可能再去變成綠氫、再去變成綠氨使用。部長在點頭，這表示臺灣的綠電不能自給自足，要從國外輸入，從國外輸入是不是有三種方法？海底電纜、管路運輸液態綠氨或者用船舶運輸，部長，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：完全正確。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問你認為臺灣適合哪一種輸入綠能的條件？"],["郭部長智輝：成本低的我們就可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這三種你覺得臺灣哪一個條件比較符合？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在在看科技的發展，如果以海底電纜來講的話，大概跟距離有關係，跟loss也有關係，目前來看，海底電纜的成本與用船運的成本大概差不多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：電纜與船運差不多。"],["卓院長榮泰：請國發會回答一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等一下我再給劉主委發表意見。往下看，但是我們現在要發展進口綠氫來應對臺灣的綠電不足，其實我有注意到，也要請院長責成國發會注意，現在我們有後端的應用，包括氫能車、加氫站，包括家庭各方面使用的綠氫，除了用綠氫去發電之外，可以只用綠氫，對不對？這些後端的配套有一個根本的致命傷，如果前端沒有接受綠氫或綠氨的港埠設施，我們能不能做？劉主委，你覺得呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，因為氫的安定性比較低，所以這幾年的趨勢是把氫轉化成氨，然後進來以後，臺灣的台肥每年進口數百萬噸的氨，所以從儲存到運輸臺灣都有一定的能力。現在日本也研究出來用綠氨直接……原來是氨要轉成氫，現在是用燃燒到600度就可以直接使用，這樣的發電機也已經研發成功了，日本現在在研究直接把綠氨拿去做汽車的燃料，所以這個趨勢是存在的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以臺灣用綠電……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我也順便跟委員報告一下，其實新加坡最近有一個方案已經簽約，它跟印尼直接買綠電，然後拉電纜到它那裡去，所以這幾條路線都是可行的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以臺灣需要綠電，但是自給自足不夠，我們要從外面用電纜、管路還有船舶運輸，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，剛剛主委講到各種綠氫綠能的運用端，臺灣都在發展了，但是最重要、最重要的是什麼？就是進口的設施，請問院長，臺灣的港口是不是做好用船舶接收氫能了呢？這是交通部管的，這不是經濟部，也不是國發會，可能有國發會的部分，請問，你覺得進口綠氫臺灣做好準備沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，抱歉！我們現在準備的應該是以接收天然氣為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，那可不可以用現有的接收設備呢？最後，我時間到了，我有兩個結論，第一，是不是請研議因應未來發電裝置眾多且分散及避免弊端的管理方法，可以嗎？第二個，請盤點光電侵蝕農地，造成我們糧食安全的問題，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，請研議最適合的綠氫進口方案，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們來研究，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第14位葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f3476bf57f42bb638196e9140c2b1893b4ab0e781c795f8f6649f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"15:02:17 - 15:17:43","影片長度":"00:15:26","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T15:02:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T15:17:43+08:00","duration":926,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.50284375,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.61221875,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.80471875,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.14221875,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.77909375,"end":33.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.291593750000004,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.400968750000004,"end":39.720968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.17659375,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.14596875,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.736593750000004,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.03096875,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":61.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.687843750000006,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.20221875,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.67034375,"end":66.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.68721875,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.97409375000001,"end":67.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.08784375,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.38721875,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.51284375,"end":136.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.53284375,"end":137.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.05159375,"end":139.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":140.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.97096875,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.07971875,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.01596875,"end":150.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.55159375000002,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.81284375,"end":155.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.89721875,"end":154.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.08284375000002,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.90534375000001,"end":157.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.45784375000002,"end":161.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.64346875,"end":157.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.72784375,"end":158.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.27159375000002,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.72659375,"end":169.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.52346875,"end":191.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.86159375000003,"end":204.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.16346875000002,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.87909375,"end":222.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.39284375000003,"end":231.21846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.21846875000003,"end":237.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.72471875000002,"end":233.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.35659375,"end":242.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.06471875000003,"end":245.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.35534375,"end":261.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.16721875,"end":262.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.99409375,"end":266.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.41971875,"end":267.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.75284375,"end":270.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.53721875,"end":272.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.22034375000004,"end":275.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.68409375000005,"end":277.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.91159375,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.20221875000004,"end":303.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.84846875,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.18971875,"end":310.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.59846875,"end":315.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.32346875,"end":318.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.91784375000003,"end":319.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.41971875,"end":326.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.81534375,"end":328.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.84034375000005,"end":332.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.27471875000003,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.45596875,"end":333.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.21096875,"end":336.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.30346875000004,"end":338.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.98221875,"end":342.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.25159375000004,"end":357.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.15659375,"end":362.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.38346875,"end":366.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.14659375,"end":368.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.15909375,"end":368.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.20971875000004,"end":368.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.24346875000003,"end":368.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.26034375,"end":368.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.39534375000005,"end":368.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.47971875,"end":370.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.14596875,"end":378.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.41596875000005,"end":372.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.29659375,"end":383.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.88659375000003,"end":386.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.63284375,"end":388.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.62409375000004,"end":389.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.19784375,"end":392.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.62784375,"end":393.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.97784375000003,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.03471875,"end":408.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.74346875000003,"end":408.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.76034375,"end":411.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.79409375,"end":409.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.96659375,"end":415.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.44284375,"end":422.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.27284375000005,"end":424.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.97721875,"end":436.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.90784375000004,"end":441.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.37971875000005,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.87721875000005,"end":444.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.12159375000005,"end":454.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.77096875,"end":449.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.58471875000004,"end":466.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.49471875,"end":464.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.59096875000006,"end":479.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.56784375,"end":492.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.94971875000005,"end":504.94784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.31159375000004,"end":499.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.16721875,"end":522.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.85221875,"end":566.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.40659375,"end":573.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.89909375,"end":575.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.9409687500001,"end":580.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.51409375,"end":582.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.0790937500001,"end":585.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.59346875,"end":589.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.5803437500001,"end":589.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.8797187499999,"end":596.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.77409375,"end":591.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.87471875,"end":602.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.10659375,"end":596.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.2078437499999,"end":596.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.4272187500001,"end":596.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.3290937500001,"end":616.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.07846875,"end":614.4834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.79971875,"end":627.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.36346875,"end":637.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.2747187500001,"end":627.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.5478437500001,"end":641.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.02846875,"end":638.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.82971875,"end":643.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.5422187500001,"end":657.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.43034375,"end":658.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.42159375,"end":670.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.3272187500002,"end":671.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.9428437500001,"end":671.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.9597187500001,"end":682.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.6922187499999,"end":685.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.0834687500001,"end":690.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.1297187499999,"end":693.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.23471875,"end":696.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":699.7865937500001,"end":703.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.9209687500002,"end":705.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":706.2834687500001,"end":707.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.38471875,"end":706.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.67159375,"end":718.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":718.7878437500001,"end":723.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":724.10346875,"end":725.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":725.92596875,"end":728.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.6472187500001,"end":730.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":732.91221875,"end":735.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.61221875,"end":752.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":753.02721875,"end":762.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.15659375,"end":766.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":767.9953437500001,"end":770.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":771.1172187500001,"end":778.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":779.4197187500001,"end":784.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.6215937500001,"end":789.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.75971875,"end":792.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.2234687499999,"end":797.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":798.18471875,"end":799.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.27721875,"end":808.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":808.74846875,"end":813.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":814.0134687500001,"end":820.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.46471875,"end":817.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.2109687500001,"end":822.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":823.5815937500001,"end":824.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.8134687500001,"end":828.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":829.13346875,"end":830.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.4328437500001,"end":835.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":830.8884687500001,"end":831.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":834.3984687500001,"end":834.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":835.47846875,"end":845.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":843.1397187500002,"end":846.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.51034375,"end":849.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":849.4678437500002,"end":855.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.0322187500001,"end":857.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":858.96846875,"end":864.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":865.29659375,"end":865.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":866.41034375,"end":871.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":871.7934687500001,"end":874.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":874.2234687500002,"end":883.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.26846875,"end":890.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":890.01846875,"end":891.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.0603437500001,"end":893.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.95034375,"end":893.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.5747187500001,"end":901.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.27409375,"end":904.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":903.21471875,"end":903.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":905.6615937500001,"end":921.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":924.8484687500002,"end":925.2703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":925.2703437500002,"end":925.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":925.3715937500001,"end":926.4853437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.537,"end":7.999,"text":"院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢卓院長好那今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電遇到用電高峰呢他就會關掉民眾的家電院長您知道這個計畫嗎"},{"start":33.311,"end":36.613,"text":"請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎?有沒有在座的各位我們的部會首長們有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎?可以舉手嗎?"},{"start":62.674,"end":91.281,"text":"你有加入啊?surprise me我聽過你聽過我真不意外沒有人加入喔本席上週跟台電索取這個志願斷電計畫的執行成效一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供一直到我告訴他們說假設你們沒辦法提供我就要直接問院長囉他們才迅速的把他送來結果我發現喔原來不是他們不願意提供"},{"start":91.781,"end":91.961,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":115.487,"end":128.526,"text":"打這個民眾的家電的主意不如好好想一想這個能源配比到底要怎麼調整我接下來也再請問一下部長說目前我們台灣的能源配比目標是什麼"},{"start":129.568,"end":149.537,"text":"我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把這個綠能佔30%然後這個本來明年的目標呢院長你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎原來我們在第一次能源轉型我們希望是這個"},{"start":151.607,"end":168.637,"text":"天然氣用50%煤用30%綠能用20%有可能達成嗎?2030年我們是希望說天然氣能夠維持50%但是綠能再生能源要加到30%把煤降到20%"},{"start":169.574,"end":190.842,"text":"是這就是本席非常擔憂的因為本來說明年要達成但是呢非常明顯的已經告訴我們說沒有辦法達成目標已經跳票了但是呢現在社會上關心的已經不是能源配比的這個目前你們會不會達標了大家關心的是就算你達標了"},{"start":192.878,"end":211.252,"text":"我們的供電穩不穩定我們的電費能不能調降還是會再調漲那還要再多花多少錢大家都知道天然氣再生能源都比核能貴那麼多那還要再預算補助嗎要再補幾千億呢這個你們有考慮過嗎請問院長你有考慮過調整這個能源配比目標嗎"},{"start":216.136,"end":236.47,"text":"農業配比是這樣,我們希望能源配比再生能源能夠在2030年達到百分之三十。所以大約的算起來,我們在2026年會達成一半,百分之十四點五。但2028年會達到百分之十八點多。是,那部長沒有算過達到我們要付多少的成本嗎?我想要請問一下院長,請問"},{"start":239.012,"end":255.524,"text":"臺電現在帳面上到這個月為止虧損多少錢你知道嗎?那目前他財務虧損應該是達到4200億左右差不多4200億那如果按照您現在預計今年1000億明年1000億撲補了2000億我們等於還有2200億的缺口那這個部分我們打算怎麼做?繼續漲電價嗎?我"},{"start":263.429,"end":277.26,"text":"電價今年調整兩次尤其第二次我們調漲的範圍非常的小但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊但是以穩定民生為優先那未來電價審議委員會應該也是會朝這樣的原則去做考量"},{"start":281.463,"end":301.74,"text":"有關於電價的問題,臺積電法說會上上週召開臺積電就說臺灣的電價在這三年漲了四次如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍臺積電還說,他說相比美國亞利桑那廠跟日本熊本廠臺灣廠區現在是最貴的院長,您覺得這會不會影響我們臺灣的競爭力?"},{"start":307.305,"end":326.037,"text":"第一個我們在反映成本的這個原則底下目前的條幅只是略略跟成本超過一點點這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施至於台積電在國外的電的場區用的所任何的電他因為電的來源不一樣"},{"start":326.817,"end":327.517,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":343.326,"end":370.608,"text":"我看起來不是很在乎官位以前呢撥補的政策你本來說不能撥補之後又調整說可以接受撥補那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改呢既然你都有慈觀的Guts有這個為什麼不把這一份魄力用在努力爭取為台灣爭取核能呢報告委員我是行政院經濟部的部長是所以我是團隊的一份子"},{"start":371.169,"end":387.901,"text":"所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取說這不是你的初衷嗎?就是義無反顧的去爭取核能研議啊?我們都有在關注新的科技能源等一下我就跟你說你是要跟我講那個什麼SMR對不對?"},{"start":390.243,"end":407.236,"text":"你要跟我講SMR我就跟你講SMR它產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還差5至多5至30倍假設我們可以接受SMR為什麼我們不能夠重啟我們傳統的核二核三"},{"start":408.957,"end":436.052,"text":"為什麼您剛才這個命題其實是我想院長我們從過去一直到現在都在講我們對核能的關注就是第一個他是大家有共識第二個核廢料可以處理第三他是安全的是所以呢我不曉得說假設院長假設部長他很極力的跟你爭取說他覺得台灣如果產業要繼續發展我們還要支持AI產業必須要重啟核能您會聽下去嗎"},{"start":436.94,"end":453.285,"text":"部長現在跟我們在努力的是我們如何發展多元的綠能那在這個前提命題之下問題是綠能很貴啊天然氣也很貴啊我們台電就算撥補兩千億還虧兩千兩百億那未來怎麼辦呢我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎到2030年之前我們的供電的計畫上面來看還是可以穩定的供電至於說發電成本我們現在這種結構我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低我們發電的成本還是比較低的"},{"start":467.97,"end":491.667,"text":"昨天臺達電的創辦人鄭崇華他剛剛得了這個李國鼎獎獲獎之後呢他就說全世界都知道核電最經濟最安全他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府說如果當初做了錯的決定招令細改未嘗不可企業的喊話其實不只這一例我不曉得院長有沒有聽到"},{"start":493.07,"end":521.8,"text":"我們資料上顯示我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到而且是具體的而如果我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標是 院長我相信您也很努力但是呢本席想要提的另外一個問題跟錢就沒有關係了現在核三廠的二號機在稅休41天的稅休實際上我們台灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標但是呢"},{"start":522.915,"end":547.456,"text":"在沒有光電的凌晨火力發電佔比高達98%與其稱現在是非核家園本席認為現在應該叫我們台灣叫火力家園這8年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多導致我們火力發電要補300億度電然後碳排大大的增加後果是什麼"},{"start":548.197,"end":565.643,"text":"後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康用費發電前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅這個是完全不同層次的問題難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎"},{"start":566.863,"end":582.197,"text":"謝謝委員早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問那我們跟他說清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字沒有錯但是在10月22號當天我們所看到的"},{"start":583.118,"end":600.571,"text":"再生能源已經達到百分之十六的發電院長我只問你說你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎沒有我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少他的負擔院長我必須再次提醒您喔核電不是敵人暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人"},{"start":603.516,"end":618.205,"text":"對,我說過核電本身是中性的但是它的成本要計算它未來核後端核廢料的處理那個是一個隱形的成本我們要計算在現在但是你們都願意支持SMR啊"},{"start":619.125,"end":638.718,"text":"SMR的這個核廢料產出是5倍至30倍你們都願意討論了為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行?報告委員開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術是我們對所有的新開發的核能技術目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎?經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎?我們有其他方面的研究啦"},{"start":643.621,"end":658.569,"text":"如果這方面研究有報告出來麻煩提供本席一份好嗎因為這事關著臺灣的未來我們經濟會不會受影響會不會開始衰退我們人民的生活會不會受影響影響非常的大"},{"start":659.469,"end":683.308,"text":"是 報告委員 我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急啦我們現在為什麼極端的拉這個綠能是因為H100的關係他在2030年但是在你拉綠能的過程我們民眾都用肺在發電啦你要等多久才能達到你的目標你知道嗎2030年就等於還要等五年六年欸這五年六年要犧牲多少人民的健康接下來想要問農業部部長"},{"start":690.094,"end":696.021,"text":"部長請請問一下部長昨天被傳喚您是用什麼身份被傳喚"},{"start":699.807,"end":724.695,"text":"我早上已經說了齁因為有人告我所以是以被告的身份被傳喚真的是有人告你嗎?這個如果據我所知這個是農業部自己移交檢調檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告這個一般的有人去按鈴申告是兩回事的被告喔對是兩回事情但是在去年八九月的時候就有不少的"},{"start":725.987,"end":752.146,"text":"外界的議員的部分來提告我先請問您昨天您被約巡了多久應該有將近三個小時吧將近三個小時請問部長今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的那為什麼如果都合法為什麼會有人需要交保也被監察院糾正您在約談的時候還是監察堅持全部合法嗎"},{"start":753.067,"end":765.596,"text":"我想整個的一個採購程序合法但是他有行政瑕疵這個我之前就講過了監察院有做一個糾正但是裡面的陳其仲局委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎"},{"start":768.015,"end":789.465,"text":"我想在整個的過程裡面是一個符合我們的公務的一個遊戲規則去走的那至於說廠商之間的一些不可能去調查行政單位不可能調查的部分我們才請檢調單位來調查這就是我想要問院長的一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告"},{"start":790.779,"end":790.959,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":800.376,"end":820.09,"text":"行政政府官員無論用什麼身份去應應到司法的調查我們所著重的是司法調查能夠清楚的告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任那部長說的已經有人告他所以他是被告的身份不會產生串證跟滅證的問題嗎"},{"start":823.995,"end":844.991,"text":"這個我想在部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的這個制度我會要求南報檢察官是隨便代案隨便把他列為被告嗎?我也會當場在這裡要求部長要全力配合司法的調查對於我們部內所有就算他不是共犯南報都沒有行政責任嗎?"},{"start":847.554,"end":848.095,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德"},{"start":866.862,"end":891.238,"text":"這個草屍彈的問題在去年一直發展到今年都有經過行政院或是政府內部的調查520之後我們是曾經看到這樣的調查我們沒有啟動新的調查程序所以目前的階段還是原來跟外界所報告的過程裡面那本席再問一下院長假設陳部長不幸被起訴那需不需要停止那我依法辦理"},{"start":892.113,"end":892.393,"text":"政府主動出來"},{"start":924.915,"end":925.076,"text":"謝謝張家俊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":99,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（15時2分）院長，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長好。今年台電7月開始試辦自願斷電計畫，這個計畫就是由台電遠端控制民眾的家電，遇到用電高峰，它就會關掉民眾的家電，院長，您知道這個計畫嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說的是住商節電的設施嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：不是，是遠端斷電計畫，很明顯應該是官邸沒有加入，但是您自宅有申請加入嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：那請問一下經濟部長有加入嗎？有沒有在座的各位我們的部會首長們，有人加入這個自願斷電計畫嗎？可以舉手嗎？你有加入啊！Surprise me！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我聽過。"],["張委員嘉郡：你聽過？我真不意外沒有人加入。本席上週跟台電索取這個自願斷電計畫的執行成效，一直到昨天都沒有辦法提供，一直到我告訴他們說，假設你們沒辦法提供，我就要直接問院長了，他們才迅速的把它送來，結果我發現原來不是他們不願意提供，是因為計畫的成效太差了，本來目標是說希望可以號召2萬戶，節省64萬度的電，目標很豐滿，結果現實很骨感，大概只有2%的完成率，所以本席想要提醒一下，台電與其在這裡打民眾家電的主意，不如好好想一想能源配比到底要怎麼調整。","我接下來也再請問一下部長，目前我們臺灣的能源配比目標是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的目標就是在2030年以後可以把綠能占30%，然後火……"],["張委員嘉郡：本來明年的目標呢？院長，你知道我們的能源配比到明年的目標是什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：原來我們在第一次能源轉型，我們希望是天然氣用50%、煤用30%、綠能用20%，但是……"],["張委員嘉郡：有可能達成嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在2030年我們是希望天然氣能夠維持50%，但是綠能、再生能源要加大到30%，把煤降到20%。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是本席非常擔憂的，因為本來說是明年要達成，但是非常明顯地，已經告訴我們沒有辦法達成目標，已經跳票了。現在社會上關心的已經不是目前你們的能源配比會不會達標，大家關心的是就算你達標了，我們的供電穩不穩定，我們的電費能不能調降，還是會再調漲，還要再多花多少錢。大家都知道天然氣、再生能源都比核能貴那麼多，還要再用預算補助嗎？要再補幾千億呢？這個你們有考慮過嗎？請問院長，你有考慮過調整能源配比的目標嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：能源配比是這樣，我們是希望再生能源能夠在2030年達到30%，大略地算起來，我們在2026年會達成一半，亦即14.5%，到2028年會達到百分之十八點多，到2030年……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你有算過為了達標，我們要付多少成本嗎？我想要請問一下院長，你知道台電現在帳面上，到這個月為止虧損多少錢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們目前的財務虧損應該是達到4,200億左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：差不多，4,200億。如果按照您現在預計的，今年1,000億、明年1,000億，撥補了2,000億，我們等於還有2,200億的缺口，這個部分打算怎麼做？是繼續漲電價嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價今年調整兩次，尤其是第二次，我們調漲的範圍非常小，但調幅對某些產業是比較大一點，我們是衡量到整個產業的衝擊，但以穩定民生為優先，未來電價審議委員會應該也會朝這樣的原則去考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：有關電價的問題，台積電法說會上上週召開，台積電說臺灣的電價在這3年漲了4次，如今電力的費用已經是2022年首次漲價之後的兩倍。台積電還說，相比美國的亞利桑那廠、日本的熊本廠，臺灣的廠區現在是最貴的。院長，您覺得這會不會影響臺灣的競爭力？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們在反映成本的這個原則底下，目前的調幅只是略略較成本超過一點點，這是台電在財務健全狀況底下必要的措施。至於台積電在國外廠區所用任何的電，因為電的來源不一樣，剛剛部長也說過了，在……"],["張委員嘉郡：「電的來源不一樣」，你就講到重點了，明顯你也知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：用水力發電當然會比較便宜。"],["張委員嘉郡：你也明顯知道核能比較便宜，為什麼我們不用核能？"],["卓院長榮泰：它是用水力發電所以比較便宜。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我想您是一個認真做事的人，而且我看你也不是很在乎官位。以前撥補的政策，你本來說「不能撥補」，之後又調整說「可以接受撥補」，那非核家園的政策為什麼不能改？既然你都有辭官的guts，為什麼不把這份魄力用在努力為臺灣爭取核能呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是行政院經濟部的部長，也是團隊的一份子，這是……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你沒有辦法努力去爭取？這不是你的初衷嗎？應該要義無反顧地去爭取核能延役呀！"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有在關注新的科技能源……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個等一下，我就跟你說，你是要跟我講SMR，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：你要跟我講SMR，我就跟你講。SMR產生的核廢料其實比傳統核電廠還多5至30倍，假設我們可以接受SMR，為什麼我們不能重啟傳統的核二、核三？"],["郭部長智輝：您剛才的這個命題，我想院長從過去到現在一直都在講，我們對核能的關注就是，第一個它是大家有共識，第二個核廢料可以處理，第三個它是安全的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，所以我不曉得……假設部長極力地跟院長爭取，他覺得臺灣如果產業要繼續發展，我們還要支持AI產業，必須重啟核能，您會聽下去嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長現在跟我們在努力的是，要如何發展多元的綠能，在這個前提、命題之下，到2030年前，我們是……"],["張委員嘉郡：問題是綠能很貴啊！天然氣也很貴啊！台電就算撥補了2,000億，還虧2,200億，未來怎麼辦呢？我們要繼續填補這個無底洞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：到2030年之前，從我們的供電計畫來看，還是可以穩定地供電，至於發電成本，現在這種結構，我們還是會比其他競爭國家還要低……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們可以繼續承受的了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們發電的成本還是比較低的。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席引用一下昨天台達電的創辦人鄭崇華，他剛剛得了李國鼎獎，獲獎之後他就說，全世界都知道核電最經濟、最安全，他用新加坡的例子呼籲政府，如果當初做了錯的決定，朝令夕改未嘗不可，企業的喊話其實不只這一例，我不曉得院長有沒有聽到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的資料上顯示，我們在第一次的能源轉型到目前成效是看得到，而且是具體的。"],["張委員嘉郡：而且呢……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們繼續推動第二次能源轉型，還是可以在我們掌握之中去達到轉型的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，院長，我相信您也很努力，但是本席想要提的另外一個問題，跟錢就沒有關係。現在核三廠的2號機在歲修，41天的歲修，實際上，我們臺灣目前已經達成了非核家園的目標，但是在沒有光電的凌晨，火力發電占比高達98%，與其稱現在是非核家園，本席認為現在應該叫我們臺灣「火力家園」，這八年減少的核電比增加的再生能源還要多，導致我們火力發電要補300億度電，然後碳排大大的增加，後果是什麼？後果就是全國人民要犧牲健康，用肺發電。前面說撥補多少錢都還是其次，真正的問題是我們人民的健康受到威脅，這個是完全不同層次的問題，難道犧牲人民的健康是非核家園的本意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。早上也有其他委員用同樣的數據來這裡提出他的詢問，我們跟他說，清晨的那一個瞬間是呈現如此的數字，沒有錯，但是在10月22號當天，我們所看到的再生能源已經達到16%的發電。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，我只問你說，你覺得犧牲人民的健康值得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有犧牲。"],["張委員嘉郡：值得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們發展再生能源就是讓地球減少它的負擔，怎麼會是犧牲？"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，我必須再次提醒您，核電不是敵人，暖化跟健康問題才是我們的敵人。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我說過，核電本身是中性的，但是它的成本要計算未來核後端、核廢料的處理，那個是一個隱形的成本，現在無法計算，你怎麼計算它？"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你們都願意支持SMR啦，SMR的核廢料產出是5倍至30倍，你們都願意討論，為什麼我們重啟核電廠不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，開放討論不是現在支持哪一種新型的核能技術，是我們對所有新開發的核能技術都願意開放，並不是特定支持哪一樣……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以目前你有指示誰開始做這方面的研究嗎？經濟部有開始做這方面的研究嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有其他方面的研究。"],["張委員嘉郡：如果這方面研究有報告出來，麻煩提供本席一份好嗎？因為這事關著臺灣的未來，我們經濟會不會受影響，會不會開始衰退。我們人民的生活會不會受影響？影響非常的大。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想我們在這一方面還是有輕重緩急，現在我們為什麼極端的拉綠能，是因為RE100的關係，它在2030年要求……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是在你拉綠能的過程，我們民眾都用肺在發電啦，你要等多久才能達到你的目標，你知道嗎？2030年就等於還要等五年、六年耶，這五年、六年要犧牲多少人民的健康？","我接下來想要問農業部部長。部長，請問一下，部長昨天被傳喚，您是用什麼身分被傳喚？"],["陳部長駿季：我早上已經說了，因為有人告我，所以是以被告的身分被傳喚。"],["張委員嘉郡：真的是有人告你嗎？據我所知，這是農業部自己移交檢調，檢察官經過調查認為有嫌疑才會列為被告，這跟一般有人去案鈴申告是兩回事的被告。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是兩回事情，但是在去年8、9月的時候就有不少外界議員的部分來提告。"],["張委員嘉郡：我先請問您，昨天您被約詢了多久？"],["陳部長駿季：應該有將近三個小時吧！"],["張委員嘉郡：將近三個小時，請問部長，今年7月你說過採購雞蛋的整個程序是合法的，如果都合法，為什麼會有人需要交保，也被監察院糾正？您在被約談的時候，還是堅持全部合法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：整個採購程序是合法的，但是有行政瑕疵，這個我之前就講過了，監察院也做了糾正，但是裡面的……"],["張委員嘉郡：陳吉仲主委有對您做過任何相關的指示嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想整個過程符合我們公務的遊戲規則在走，至於廠商之間的一些問題，行政單位不可能調查的部分，我們才請檢調單位來調查。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是我想要問院長的，一個行政首長被檢察官列為被告，難道不需要停職嗎？這個情節是相當重大的，院長，您覺得不需要停職嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，行政、政務官員無論用什麼身分去因應到司法調查，我們所著重的是，司法調查能夠清楚地告訴社會大眾這位官員應該身負什麼樣的責任。部長說的……"],["張委員嘉郡：難道身為部長不會……"],["卓院長榮泰：曾經有人告他，所以他是被告的身分，或是檢察官……"],["張委員嘉郡：不會產生串證跟滅證的問題嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我想部裡面有部裡面整個公文處理的制度，我會要求，我已經這麼要求……"],["張委員嘉郡：難道檢察官是隨便辦案，隨便把他列為被告嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我也會當場要求部長要全力配合司法調查，對於我們部內所有過去……"],["張委員嘉郡：就算他不是共犯，難道都沒有行政責任嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：相關的任何資料，都要完整的保護。"],["張委員嘉郡：這麼大的一個案件，身為副主委、主委都不知道，一個科員可以主張幾億的案件，然後簽約跟履約的公司都不一樣，這個院長有辦法接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：超思蛋的問題，從去年一直發展到今年年中，都有經過行政院或政府內部的調查，520之後，我們曾經看到這樣的調查，但我們沒有啟動新的調查程序，所以目前階段還是在原來跟外界報告的過程裡面。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席再問院長，假設陳部長不幸被起訴，需不需要停職？"],["卓院長榮泰：那我就依法辦理。"],["張委員嘉郡：就依法辦理停職，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果政府官員被起訴，而內容是社會相當矚目的案件，我們當然必須依法辦理。"],["張委員嘉郡：這是全國重大的議題，雖然現在一再的推給所謂的偵查不公開等等，但全世界都在看，有哪一個民主國家面對這麼大的醜聞、弊案而不出來說明的？買雞蛋用的是人民的錢，人民應該有知的權利，政府也應該主動出來說明，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝張嘉郡委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長備詢。","接下來請登記第13位鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34e52f1487956ab6a86e9140c2b1893b4ab0e781c795f8f6647c5064231c774fdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"14:46:20 - 15:02:06","影片長度":"00:15:46","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T14:46:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T15:02:06+08:00","duration":946,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.22409375,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.004093750000003,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.72784375,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.95971875,"end":30.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.996593750000002,"end":51.212843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.49971875,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.70096875,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.23159375,"end":67.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.34534375,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.57659375,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.27034375000001,"end":89.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.23221875,"end":96.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.60659375,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.66909375,"end":106.57971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.06909375000001,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.59971875000001,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.88534375,"end":133.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.28846875000002,"end":142.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.19846875000002,"end":149.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.26909375,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.21409375000002,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.13284375,"end":160.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.78221875,"end":161.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.86221875,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.93784375,"end":167.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.95409375,"end":169.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.35034375,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.53159375,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.47659375,"end":179.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.69909375,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.80409375000002,"end":188.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.15409375000002,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.91284375,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.47346875000002,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.50596875000002,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.53971875000002,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.19284375,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.38221875000002,"end":212.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.16659375,"end":214.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.90034375000002,"end":217.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.17409375000003,"end":222.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.96659375000002,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.80971875,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.39096875,"end":236.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.02346875,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.43659375000001,"end":242.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.42346875,"end":246.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.40159375000002,"end":250.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.13096875000002,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.97471875000002,"end":252.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.56534375,"end":252.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.81846875000002,"end":255.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.58596875,"end":275.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.25784375,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.10971875,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.12596875,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.91846875000005,"end":292.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.40721875,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.87034375,"end":301.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.58721875000003,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.25659375000004,"end":316.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.01096875,"end":324.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.92534375,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.10221875,"end":328.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.61659375000005,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.21534375000005,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.15159375,"end":340.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.37846875,"end":344.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.31471875,"end":354.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.49034375,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.68409375000005,"end":379.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.86596875000004,"end":401.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.47034375000004,"end":407.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.74784375,"end":431.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.94659375000003,"end":435.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.53659375,"end":438.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.61221875,"end":444.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.29909375000005,"end":450.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.57221875000005,"end":459.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.70159375000003,"end":465.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.86534375,"end":486.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.90846875000005,"end":493.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.40534375000004,"end":495.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.17284375,"end":496.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.74659375000005,"end":499.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.17221875,"end":503.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.10846875000004,"end":506.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.14596875,"end":512.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.51721875000004,"end":506.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.84534375,"end":520.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.87784375,"end":522.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.66659375,"end":527.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.8134687500001,"end":547.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.57409375,"end":549.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.3078437500001,"end":555.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.31971875,"end":556.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.83846875,"end":559.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.36534375,"end":562.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.18346875,"end":565.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.6640937500001,"end":569.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.22471875,"end":569.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.25409375,"end":570.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.90784375,"end":572.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.02596875,"end":572.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.2959687499999,"end":572.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.46471875,"end":572.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.75159375,"end":573.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.49409375,"end":576.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.1897187500001,"end":591.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.19346875,"end":580.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.2890937500001,"end":589.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.6515937500001,"end":593.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.6428437500001,"end":598.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.4353437500001,"end":604.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.67909375,"end":607.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.5984687499999,"end":613.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.40346875,"end":615.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.0022187500001,"end":619.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.2422187500001,"end":619.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.2590937500001,"end":619.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.61346875,"end":621.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.97596875,"end":626.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.61659375,"end":635.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.5265937500001,"end":636.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.16784375,"end":636.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.30284375,"end":636.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.75846875,"end":646.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.7990937500001,"end":655.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.3503437500001,"end":698.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":699.2634687500001,"end":699.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.32659375,"end":701.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.43596875,"end":702.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.87471875,"end":705.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.1865937500002,"end":705.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.75596875,"end":707.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.93721875,"end":708.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.20284375,"end":712.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.08409375,"end":714.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.38346875,"end":723.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.39471875,"end":723.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":724.3059687500001,"end":739.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.57784375,"end":751.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.45346875,"end":757.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":757.8703437500001,"end":763.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.84409375,"end":764.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.6709687500002,"end":773.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.3953437499999,"end":773.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.4922187500001,"end":779.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":780.61784375,"end":795.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.7547187500002,"end":804.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":804.09096875,"end":808.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.4028437500001,"end":806.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.90471875,"end":810.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.3684687500001,"end":823.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":810.4697187500001,"end":811.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":823.8515937500001,"end":854.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":855.3403437500001,"end":859.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.77846875,"end":859.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":859.8459687500001,"end":859.8797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.8797187500002,"end":861.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":861.44909375,"end":861.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":861.48284375,"end":861.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":862.27596875,"end":879.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":879.77534375,"end":884.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":885.05721875,"end":885.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.1540937500001,"end":887.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":888.1453437500002,"end":905.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":906.06659375,"end":909.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":910.15034375,"end":920.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":920.91659375,"end":922.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":922.9753437500001,"end":924.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":924.57846875,"end":926.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":926.13096875,"end":927.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":937.7747187500001,"end":939.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.6940937500001,"end":940.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":940.94721875,"end":941.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":943.2253437500001,"end":945.97596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.74,"end":11.684,"text":"謝謝院長那想請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢黃委員好卓院長跟郭部長其實在我今天的質詢之前因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡宇委員"},{"start":31.092,"end":58.429,"text":"其實一開始的時候有一段講到說到底我們目前的化石燃料的價格包括燃煤跟燃氣跟烏鱷戰爭之前比起來如何我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏鱷戰爭之前一樣可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下就我目前手上的數據目前燃煤的價格其實應該是在烏鱷戰爭前還高出一倍雖然已經從最高點"},{"start":59.738,"end":87.565,"text":"每噸400塊美金降下來現在140塊美金但還是烏俄戰爭前的高出一倍那天然氣的價格呢也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%所以我說這部分我還是要提醒一下部長免得這個可能如果媒體寫出去那大家會在會很困惑那我們接下來說台電要來追加減預算等等等後面這些財務上面的方案的原因這部分我還是要提醒一下部長是謝謝"},{"start":89.827,"end":106.244,"text":"那我今天的質詢其實想針對跟院長跟部長是要討論關於離岸風電的問題我想大家都知道最近其實離岸風電的國產化引起很多的討論尤其是在歐盟這個狀告WTO之後我看到部長其實也有一些公開的表示"},{"start":107.148,"end":132.079,"text":"那我其實一直很長期非常關注聯合風電的政策也很多這些產業界的朋友其實大家很密切的討論那我必須說其實風電國產化的政策當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展的機會這是確定的但如果仔細看這個過程比方說我們確實現在看到一些本土供應商他供應的能力或者是供應的時程上面的一些變數那也包括這個"},{"start":134.349,"end":160.383,"text":"有一些銀行在融資上面也會在也從這個角度上面有一些猶豫的因素我自己我自己覺得確實有一些政策的環節是需要做進一步的相關的檢討跟討論是有這個討論的空間的那部長我其實我看到你之前有講到一個很重要的概念說希望接下來我們聯安風電其實很重要的事情是要可以如期並往是嗎是"},{"start":161.889,"end":170.766,"text":"部長我想請問過去我們幾個風場如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話就你知道可能的因素有哪些原因是什麼"},{"start":172.857,"end":200.152,"text":"過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商當然有很多啦有他自己資金的問題但我說就你知道的有哪些因素資金的問題、技術的問題然後國廠化不足的問題這些都是造成他沒有辦法如期併網還有俄烏戰爭那因為戰爭的影響那歐洲的船沒有辦法進來台灣來做施工我想這些都是環境上面造成"},{"start":200.652,"end":226.705,"text":"我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業其實我們在過去的經驗裡面學習那大概其實可以看一下我們這幾個我們把其實過去具體發生的無法無期併網的原因看到一些比方說華莊這是技術的問題比方說貸款上面那不順利就是融資上面財務的問題也包括有些工程上面的問題包括國產化交貨上面的問題"},{"start":228.125,"end":252.004,"text":"也有一些是遇到了一些抗爭所以如果我總體歸納的話下一張大概我們可以歸納成這四大的風險關鍵這個風險的要素第一個國產化供貨順利與否第二個技術的專業能力到位與否第三個財務與旅約能力到位與否第四個社會環境的接受度我大概歸納這四個部長同同意完全同意"},{"start":252.875,"end":280.954,"text":"部長那如果我們很明確知道說這些因素其實都是我們過去一段時間以來風場他很具體的風險因素的話照理來說我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理的策略對不對甚至我們應該在我們的遊戲規則裡面選商的遊戲規則裡面該把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標應該要設計進去部長同不同意我同意這個委員的指教部長但是現在我們其實看到的狀況是這樣齁"},{"start":283.211,"end":297.504,"text":"其實我們在我們現在聯風電的選商的過程裡面其實第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力財務能力這些事情但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻幾乎所有的廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻"},{"start":298.922,"end":326.421,"text":"但實質倒是到第二階段的競比我們比兩件事情第一個比價格第二個比國產化承諾但大家都知道現在價格大家的投標都是零元競標所以價格已經不具鑑別性了以至於我們現在所有的廠商所有都在比所謂的國產化承諾這一個所以真正的我們在整個選商的過程裡面真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾坦白說我自己認為這有點偏實"},{"start":329.773,"end":334.088,"text":"報告委員您的這個指教我個人非常的敬佩"},{"start":335.202,"end":359.195,"text":"因為我們還是看到問題是我們的問題是在是不是如期能夠併網所以我們現在的態度就是說如果這個他們有需要我們的協助的話那麼讓他能夠如期併網如期併網才能夠避免我們的這個綠能政策這個綠色能源的政策能夠on time部長但是我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題遊戲規則設計的問題"},{"start":361.576,"end":361.596,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":380.913,"end":404.734,"text":"他一給鑑別出來他只放在第一階段的那個基本門檻幾乎大家都會過啦簡單來說所有人都會過啦可是你看到有些人雖然看過了這個基本門檻但他最後還是發生了技術上面的問題還是發生上財務跟融資上面的問題這代表是我們這整套的遊戲設計我認為是有一些調整跟檢討的空間的尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的這個承諾"},{"start":407.83,"end":435.459,"text":"那現在大家對國產化部分討論當然很多我覺得這是一個好的討論可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題的時候我坦白說我怕會有一點見數不見理所以我們的離岸封建政策照理來說我們應該顧及的面向很多啊怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾而且這國產化承諾我說實話當我們偏廢在國產化承諾的時候就會有很多廠商我覺得很可能在當時在面對我們政府的時候會做出過度的保證"},{"start":436.979,"end":464.395,"text":"話講得有一點滿什麼一開始都覺得都可以做得到但後來實際上面好像不是這樣甚至要被開罰要被處罰變成是我們風風場能不能夠如其並往的變數這就影響到了能源政策了對不對所以部長我現在在這邊想要跟院長報告我自己覺得關於國產化政策我們當然可以檢討可是這不是一個0跟1的問題"},{"start":466.162,"end":486.312,"text":"現在這些具體的因素包括我說技術的專業能力財務能力包括是你應對這些社會環境的溝通的準備的能力這些能力如果是重要的風險管理的指標的話都應該具體的設計進去我們選商的遊戲規則裡面而且要有鑑別性不能像過去一樣這樣沒有鑑別性啊部長同不同意"},{"start":487.292,"end":511.901,"text":"我們完全同意這個委員你的指教所以我們會在3之3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點所以我們要先以這個能夠併網的時間為第一優先這部分我的想法是跟您很像因為併網這關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題"},{"start":512.961,"end":537.31,"text":"第二是我其實因為我剛才這是我剛才第一個建議我的第二個建議裡面我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例我認為是可以降低的但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目的選擇的彈性其實可以拉大如果我們可以把項目拉大的話可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的這個國產項目他這樣選擇拉大的時候他反而可以跳出來"},{"start":538.03,"end":538.251,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":550.336,"end":568.788,"text":"一個就是說應該放入其他風險管理的指標而且要有具鑑別性第二個剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目可以跳出來甚至被選擇甚至讓他有市場我們未來可以培植他有機會他可以出去輸出這兩個院長、部長"},{"start":571.923,"end":591.412,"text":"你們同意嗎?經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃應該是就朝向類似這樣的目標在走,尤其3-3的部分,我們希望他未來在台灣風場建設到一定的程度之後,他必定要用這樣的基礎的能力往國際去做發展,所以培養他國際競爭力是必要的。"},{"start":591.832,"end":618.264,"text":"那麼三至二的部分如果確實因為品質或者供期沒有辦法如期並往或其他種種的因素對國產化造成其他因素不能如期並往的話我們是可以採取個案來處理的而原則上我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一期第二階段第一階段第二階段的努力那第二階段如果有這種狀況剛剛說的那我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題"},{"start":619.705,"end":645.67,"text":"所以部長我想請問其實針對這幾點其實我們提出來的建議如果你剛才說同意的話能不能在比方說三個月的時間裡面那做一個相關的這個我們選商規則上面的檢討那相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室這可以嗎?好的那接下來部長我跟院長我其實也想跟大家在接下來討論我還剩一點時間是想要討論關於小水利的問題我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能"},{"start":646.837,"end":675.717,"text":"那多元綠能裡面包括地熱包括小水利甚至包括生殖能都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外其實需要大力發展的項目那我其實過去兩三年的時間其實也協助蠻多小水業項目其實去處理包括去做他們環境影響的把關生態影響的把關但是我必須說現在這個目前小水利的我們整個制度跟機制還是有一些業者其實他們是有一些擔心的下面一張"},{"start":676.497,"end":697.921,"text":"其實小水利的優點蠻多的包括其實它可能有24小時穩定發電它的維護成本低、環境衝擊小有利於融入環境跟水域中包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠可是我剛才說到其實很多業者包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友他們都跟我們反映我們目前在小水利制度裡面下一張有一個問題我們目前只設定了兩個短壽費率的差異點一個是500K"},{"start":706.769,"end":711.092,"text":"三種費率讓我們其實有很多的社區公民電廠或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的其實他都是在這個500K以下"},{"start":724.369,"end":750.235,"text":"那500K以下它的費率坦白說它的成本跟我們的費率相比起來它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500K以下來的高很多的所以下一張吼我們現在看到其實很多實際上面算起來的話這個小於這個500K瓦的情況裡面算起來按照我們的準收費率算起來1K瓦是大概19.4萬可是實際做起來大概會到30到40萬之間"},{"start":752.995,"end":779.222,"text":"這個問題是出在我們的費率的級距設計不夠細不夠為各種不同的規模去做設想所以在這邊我想要先建議經濟部也好跟行政院也好如果我們真的要大力推動小水利的話我們應該對於這個費率的級距應該要來擴大我說增加更多費率的級距尤其是對於這種比較小型的它是可以"},{"start":780.623,"end":781.164,"text":"部長,你覺得呢?"},{"start":795.862,"end":809.889,"text":"是的我會跟這個農業部來討論一下就是您剛才所指教的這些農業所用的用這個小水利的部分但是費率的級距是但費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊級距的部分我想我們會來計算"},{"start":811.75,"end":832.451,"text":"因為我們之前看到其實確實有那時候費率審議的委員說因為小水利的這個計算比較方式然後樣態比較多所以他們其實現在覺得案場不夠多所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距可是我覺得這是雞生蛋單生雞的問題你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加那就不會有小型的那案場就不會多"},{"start":833.132,"end":833.152,"text":"。 三"},{"start":855.365,"end":873.884,"text":"那這個專業的團隊其實目前我們在小水利其實比較沒有看到確實如此這導致的狀況是我們的公務體系其實對於小水利的國際最新的發展包括他有很多機組的形式其實都相對陌生所以他才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的"},{"start":874.304,"end":874.544,"text":"（10月29日（。"},{"start":891.585,"end":901.552,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三、行政院院院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（"},{"start":920.993,"end":927.316,"text":"是不是可以讓小水利也有一個專業的幕僚團隊來提供向"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":54,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（14時46分）謝謝院長，想請卓院長和郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、郭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：卓院長和郭部長。在我今天的質詢之前，因為我剛才聽了郭部長回答蔡易餘委員，一開始有一段講到，到底我們目前的化石燃料價格，包括燃煤和燃氣，跟烏俄戰爭之前比起來如何？我剛才聽到郭部長回答說跟烏俄戰爭之前一樣。可是我覺得這部分可能要請郭部長再回去商榷一下，就我目前手上的數據，目前燃煤的價格其實應該是比烏俄戰爭前還高出一倍，雖然已經從最高點每噸400塊美金降下來，現在140塊美金，但還是比烏俄戰爭前高出一倍；天然氣的價格也比烏俄戰爭前多了50%。所以這部分我還是要提醒部長，免得如果媒體寫出去，大家會很困惑。我們接下來說台電要追加減預算等等後面這些財務上方案的原因的話，這部分我還是要提醒一下部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天的質詢其實想跟院長和部長討論關於離岸風電的問題，我想大家都知道最近離岸風電國產化引起很多討論，尤其是在歐盟狀告WTO之後，我看到郭部長也有一些公開的表示。我長期其實一直非常關注離岸風電的政策，很多產業界的朋友，大家也很密切地討論。我必須說，風電國產化的政策，當然我們創造了很多產業新的發展機會，這是確定的。但如果仔細看這個過程，比方現在我們確實看到一些本土供應商，它供應的能力或者是供應時程上面的一些變數，包括有些銀行在融資上面，也從這個角度上而有一些猶豫的因素。我自己覺得，確實有一些政策環節需要做進一步的相關檢討和討論，有這個討論的空間。部長，我看到你之前講到一個很重要的概念，說希望接下來我們的離岸風電，其實很重要的事情是要可以如期併網，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我想請問，過去我們幾個風場，如果有部分的風場沒有如期併網的話，就你知道的可能因素有哪些，原因是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：過去沒有辦法如期併網的廠商，當然很多像有的是它自己資金的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：我說就你知道的有哪些因素？"],["郭部長智輝：資金的問題、技術的問題，以及國產化不足的問題，這些都造成它沒有辦法如期併網。還有俄烏戰爭，因為戰爭的影響，歐洲的船沒有辦法進來臺灣施工，我想這些都是環境上面造成的。"],["洪委員申翰：我知道離岸風電這個產業當然是一個新興的產業，我們在過去的經驗裡面學習，大家可以看一下這幾個，我們看到過去一些具體發生的、無法如期併網的原因，比方說滑樁，這是技術的問題，比方說貸款不順利，這是融資財務的問題，還有一些工程上面的問題，包括國產化交貨的問題，也有一些是遇到抗爭，所以如果我總體歸納的話，大概可以歸納成四大風險要素：第一個是國產化供貨順利與否，第二個是技術的專業能力到位與否，第三個是財務與履約能力到位與否，第四個是社會環境的接受度。我大概歸納了這四個，部長同不同意？"],["郭部長智輝：完全同意。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，如果我們很明確知道這些因素其實都是過去一段時間以來風場很具體的風險因素的話，照理來說，我們就應該提出相對應的風險管理策略，對不對？甚至應該在我們選商的遊戲規則裡面，把這些風險管理的要素甚至指標設計進去，部長同不同意？"],["郭部長智輝：我同意委員這個指教。"],["洪委員申翰：但是現在我們看到的狀況是這樣：在我們現在離岸風電的選商過程裡面，第一階段的選商可能確實有包括技術能力、財務能力這些事情，但其實這都只是一個最基本的門檻、幾乎所有廠商都會通過的最基本的門檻，但實質上到了第二階段的競比，我們比兩件事情，第一個是比價格，第二個是比國產化承諾。大家都知道價格方面現在大家投標都是零元競標，所以價格已經不具鑑別性了，以致現在所有的廠商都在比所謂的國產化承諾。因此我們在整個選商的過程裡面，真正在比能力高下的幾乎只剩下國產化承諾，坦白說，我自己認為這有一點偏食。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您的這個指教，我個人非常的敬佩，因為我們還是看到問題，我們的問題是在是否能夠如期併網，所以我們現在的態度就是，如果他們需要我們的協助的話，讓它能夠如期併網，如期併網才能讓我們的綠色能源政策on time。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，但我現在在講的事情是制度面的問題、遊戲規則設計的問題，我現在說的事情是，我們過去明明看到有些是因為技術問題、是因為融資財務的問題，這些能力的差異應該要被鑑別出來啊！可是從我們過去這一整套選商的遊戲規則裡面看起來，對於這些具體的風險因素好像沒把差異給鑑別出來，它只放在第一階段那個基本門檻，幾乎大家都會過啦！簡單來說，所有人都會過啦！可是有些人雖然過了這個基本門檻，但他最後還是發生技術上面的問題、還是發生財務跟融資上面的問題，這代表我們這整套遊戲設計是有一些調整跟檢討空間的。","尤其現在的狀況就變成是在獨尊國產化的承諾。現在大家對國產化的討論當然很多，我覺得這是一個好的討論，可是如果我們持續只看國產化的問題，坦白說，我怕會有一點見樹不見林。照理來說，我們的離岸風電政策應該顧及的面向很多啊！怎麼會最後大家只是在比國產化承諾？而且對於這個國產化承諾，我說實話，當我們偏重在國產化承諾的時候，我覺得可能就會有很多廠商在面對我們政府的時候做出過度的保證，把話講得有一點滿。一開始覺得都可以做得到，但後來實際上面卻好像不是這樣，甚至要被開罰、要被處罰，變成風場能不能如期併網的變數，這就影響到我們的能源政策了，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["洪委員申翰：所以部長，我在這邊也想跟院長報告，我自己覺得，關於國產化政策，我們當然可以檢討，可是這不是一個0跟1的問題，現在這些具體的因素，包括我說的技術專業能力、財務能力、應對社會環境溝通的準備能力，這些能力如果是重要的風險管理指標的話，都應該具體設計進我們選商的遊戲規則裡面，而且要有鑑別性，不能像過去一樣沒有鑑別性啊！部長同不同意？"],["郭部長智輝：我完全同意委員的指教，所以我們會在3-3這個場域裡面開始面對剛才委員所講的這些重點，而且我們要以能夠併網的時間為第一優先。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，這部分我的想法跟你很像，因為併網關乎到整體能源政策供需的問題，這是我剛才第一個建議。我的第二個建議裡面，我自己覺得國產化的承諾的比例，我認為是可以降低的，但重點是我覺得對於這些國產化項目選擇的彈性其實可以拉大，如果我們可以把項目拉大的話，可能可以讓一些真正具有國際競爭力的國產項目，在選擇拉大的時候，它反而可以跳出來，甚至可以聚焦，讓它甚至未來有機會可以變成我們輸出發展的項目，可以把這個彈性給拉大。所以我兩個具體的建議，部長，你都同意吧？第一個，應該放入其他風險管理的指標，而且要具鑑別性；第二個，剛剛說到讓國產化項目的選擇可以更彈性，這樣才可以讓有國際競爭力的項目跳出來，甚至被選擇，甚至讓它有市場，我們未來可以培植它，有機會它可以出去輸出，這兩個建議，院長、部長，你們同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部跟台電目前對第三階段的規劃，應該就朝向類似這樣的目標在走，尤其3-3的部分，我們希望未來在臺灣風場建設到一定的程度之後，它必定要用這樣的基礎能力往國際去發展，所以培養它的國際競爭力是必要的。那麼3-2的部分，如果確實因為品質或者工期沒有辦法如期併網，或其他種種的因素，對國產化造成其他因素不能如期併網的話，我們是可以採取個案來處理的，而原則上，我們還是希望感謝也肯定過去國產化業者所投入對第一階段、第二階段的努力，3-2階段如果有剛剛說的這種狀況，我們可以用個案的方式來解決國產化的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：是，所以部長，我想請問，針對這幾點我們提出建議，如果你剛才說同意的話，能不能在比方三個月時間裡面做一個我們選商規則上面的檢討，相關的報告可以提供給立法院或提供給我們辦公室，這可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長跟院長，我其實也想跟大家再接下來討論，我還剩一點時間，是想要討論關於小水力的問題。我想其實現在賴總統非常非常強調多元綠能，多元綠能裡面包括地熱，包括小水力，甚至包括生質能，都是我們在過去風電跟光電以外，其實需要大力發展的項目。過去兩三年的時間，我其實也協助滿多小水力項目去處理包括做他們環境影響的把關、生態影響的把關，但是我必須說目前我們小水力整個制度跟機制，還是有一些業者其實是有一些擔心的。其實小水力的優點滿多的，包括它可能有24小時穩定發電；它的維護成本低；環境衝擊小，有利於融入環境水域中；包括也可以結合社區的公民電廠。可是我剛才說到其實很多業者，包括想投入到公民電廠的朋友，他們都跟我們反映，我們目前在小水力制度裡面有一個問題，我們目前只設定了兩個躉購費率的差異點，一個是500kW，一個是2000kW，我們只設立了這兩個點，也就是我們費率只分三種費率。我們其實有很多的社區、公民電廠，或者是比較小型規模能夠在農村裡面實作的，其實都是在500kW以下，500kW以下坦白說，跟我們的費率相比起來，它的成本其實常常是比我們現在能夠提供的500kW以下來得高很多的。我們現在看到，實際上算起來，小於500kW的情況裡面，按照我們的躉購費率算起來，1kW大概19.4萬，可是實際做起來大概會到30萬到40萬之間，這個問題是出在我們的費率級距設計不夠細、不夠為各種不同的規模去設想。","所以在這邊，我想要先建議經濟部也好或行政院也好，如果我們真的要大力推動小水力，我們對於這個費率的級距應該要擴大，我說增加更多費率的級距，尤其是對於這種比較小型的，它可以結合我們很多農村的設施，包括跟我們農業的設施整合在一起的部分，這部分要提高，不然其實我們很多比較想做小型的業者，在費率這一關，他就直接做不下去了，這是我們看到第一件事情。部長，你覺得呢？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我會跟農業部來討論一下，就是您剛才所指教的這些農業所用的小水力。"],["洪委員申翰：但是費率的級距主要是能源署在管理啊！"],["郭部長智輝：級距的部分，我想我們會來計算。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們來檢討。"],["洪委員申翰：是。因為我們之前看到，其實確實那時候有費率審議的委員說，因為小水力的計算比較方式樣態比較多，他們現在覺得案場其實不夠多，所以他們不太敢大膽的去設定新的級距，可是我覺得這是雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題，你如果沒有辦法把費率的級距增加，那就不會有小型的，案場就不會多，那回過頭來你又說我們不好去計算。所以這裡面凸顯第二個我想要講的事情，我想部長應該很清楚，我們之前大力發展光電、離岸風電、地熱，其實在經濟部內都有一個專業的幕僚團隊，我想部長應該很清楚，他可能是很多的法人在做支援的部分，不是只單靠我們的公務人員，這個專業的團隊，其實目前我們在小水力比較沒有看到。"],["郭部長智輝：確實如此。"],["洪委員申翰：這導致的狀況是我們的公務體系，其實對於小水力的國際最新發展，包括它有很多機組的形式，其實都相對陌生，所以它才會覺得我無法去做一個比較好的、體貼的或者是合適的制度或費率的設計。這是我們之前看到的狀況，所以很多業者來跟我們說，他們覺得如果我們要發展小水力，就像之前光電、風電，包括現在地熱的發展的話，恐怕在經濟部內或行政院這邊應該要建立一個專業的幕僚團隊來專for小水力，甚至從這裡面發展出一個單一窗口，包括相關的模組化程序，其實才有助於小水力的發展，掌握最新的國際發展狀況。","就像我剛才說，我們是500K，目前500K的級距是最低的級距，日本他們其實也發展出200K以下的費率級距，其實他們就做的比我們成熟很多，所以部長，我這邊針對小水力的第二個建議是，是不是可以讓小水力也有一個專業的幕僚團隊，來提供像風電、光電、地熱這樣子的支持？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回去在組織上面來增加。"],["洪委員申翰：院長，可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議，我們來檢討費率級距，以及來討論儘速設立單一窗口來服務這些……"],["洪委員申翰：是，尤其是要專業的幕僚團隊。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["洪委員申翰：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12位張嘉郡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f343c4ff5eaf3a1db6b6e9140c2b1893b4a3ccca34ff6671224f642cddcd8afeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"14:30:23 - 14:46:05","影片長度":"00:15:42","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T14:30:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T14:46:05+08:00","duration":942,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.82721875,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.450343750000002,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.73659375,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":23.774093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.22034375,"end":30.827843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.249718750000003,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.80221875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.57346875,"end":41.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.94846875,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.96909375,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.09971875,"end":51.533468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.820343750000006,"end":54.587843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.02659375,"end":57.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.87846875,"end":71.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.66534375,"end":79.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.84534375,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.16096875000001,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.43096875,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.15659375,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.24096875000001,"end":87.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.25784375,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.42159375,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.08721875,"end":99.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.55534375,"end":102.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.37784375000001,"end":104.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.50409375000001,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.02284375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.81096875,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.26221875,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.33346875000001,"end":116.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.19784375,"end":122.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.53909375,"end":128.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.69096875000001,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.46659375000002,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.29534375,"end":145.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.96596875,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.81284375,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.25096875,"end":158.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.36471875,"end":161.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.48659375,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.77721875,"end":166.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.09346875,"end":175.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.42971875,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.48846875,"end":179.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.56409375,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.28534375,"end":192.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.38659375,"end":181.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.62221875,"end":186.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.69784375,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.90034375000002,"end":188.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.64284375000003,"end":189.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.92909375000002,"end":198.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.43034375000002,"end":208.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.19659375,"end":219.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.95034375,"end":248.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.51534375000003,"end":221.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.13096875000002,"end":224.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.46034375000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.53159375,"end":261.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.34034375000005,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.35971875,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.92471875,"end":276.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.04284375000003,"end":275.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.53221875,"end":279.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.86909375,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.16409375,"end":296.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.94659375000003,"end":310.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.42971875,"end":314.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.12096875000003,"end":315.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.31909375000004,"end":331.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.34409375,"end":318.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.52971875000003,"end":318.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.77221875000004,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.02534375000005,"end":334.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.52721875000003,"end":354.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.04159375,"end":337.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.62534375,"end":362.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.60721875,"end":378.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.50346875,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.16409375,"end":395.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.95659375,"end":410.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.22596875000005,"end":400.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.09909375,"end":401.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.78534375000004,"end":414.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.17346875000004,"end":412.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.36721875,"end":414.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.97034375000004,"end":443.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.91096875000005,"end":488.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.25846875,"end":488.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.98409375000006,"end":490.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.19909375000003,"end":495.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.97034375000004,"end":497.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.69159375000004,"end":498.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.26096875,"end":505.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.33596875,"end":506.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.97284375000004,"end":509.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.58846875000006,"end":516.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.8615937500001,"end":528.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.1315937500001,"end":518.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.9778437500001,"end":530.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.01971875,"end":531.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.25159375,"end":534.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.3059687500001,"end":540.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.1784687500001,"end":541.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.68471875,"end":541.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.70159375,"end":561.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.34409375,"end":561.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.9853437500001,"end":563.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.0359687499999,"end":562.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.5547187500001,"end":571.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.62221875,"end":563.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.92159375,"end":565.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.33409375,"end":576.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.10534375,"end":577.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.8815937500001,"end":579.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.61971875,"end":583.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.73721875,"end":597.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.4397187500001,"end":599.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.8147187500001,"end":604.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.8647187500001,"end":606.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.0834687500001,"end":616.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.76159375,"end":617.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.50409375,"end":619.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.6303437500001,"end":623.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.79846875,"end":628.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.86096875,"end":631.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.66221875,"end":635.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.1340937500001,"end":640.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.6397187499999,"end":641.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.52971875,"end":644.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.6897187500001,"end":652.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.1103437500001,"end":654.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.35909375,"end":656.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.82284375,"end":662.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.43784375,"end":670.5928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.03159375,"end":672.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.1240937500002,"end":679.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.07659375,"end":681.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.26596875,"end":687.0122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.40034375,"end":688.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.36221875,"end":691.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.02846875,"end":691.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.1128437500001,"end":691.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.14659375,"end":691.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.3997187500001,"end":691.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.6528437500001,"end":691.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.6697187500001,"end":692.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.6865937500002,"end":694.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.7409687500001,"end":695.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.3103437500001,"end":700.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.17034375,"end":702.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.7734687500001,"end":706.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.50284375,"end":718.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.5347187500001,"end":722.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.82096875,"end":731.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.81534375,"end":733.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.63346875,"end":741.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.34534375,"end":743.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.01596875,"end":745.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.2265937500001,"end":749.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.23034375,"end":753.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.9553437500001,"end":757.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.5959687500001,"end":760.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.7478437500001,"end":762.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.2365937500001,"end":771.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.85659375,"end":765.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.4553437500001,"end":767.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.50596875,"end":767.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.97846875,"end":768.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.8259687500001,"end":774.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.3022187500001,"end":779.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.2509687500001,"end":779.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.2847187500001,"end":779.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.79096875,"end":780.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.8584687500002,"end":781.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.02284375,"end":787.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.5703437500001,"end":792.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.00409375,"end":795.3328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.82221875,"end":802.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.11221875,"end":808.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.6259687500001,"end":814.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.8234687500001,"end":831.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.1372187500001,"end":832.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.1709687500002,"end":832.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.18784375,"end":837.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.5422187500001,"end":833.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":837.3684687500001,"end":840.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":840.62534375,"end":843.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":843.9328437500001,"end":844.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.87784375,"end":845.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.27846875,"end":850.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":850.88534375,"end":851.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.3703437500001,"end":858.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":858.8840937500001,"end":862.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.98471875,"end":864.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":864.95909375,"end":869.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.03846875,"end":875.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":876.21471875,"end":878.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":878.4084687500001,"end":883.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.8759687500001,"end":897.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.0678437500001,"end":907.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.58534375,"end":917.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.40659375,"end":928.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":928.99971875,"end":936.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.31846875,"end":942.3815937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.121,"end":23.193,"text":"謝謝院長,那我們是不是有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。跟那個蔡委員報告一下,台電不能被尋,不是部長好不好?好,那就部長。麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部被尋,謝謝。"},{"start":30.216,"end":37.149,"text":"蔡元豪院長好院長我們在今天在討論的主要就是台電的這個"},{"start":39.258,"end":66.407,"text":"就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策那這當然涉及到未來我們希望我們立法院可以排案來審是不是可以來追加這個兩千億的部分作為台電他未來的一個補充那所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下說到底現在台電他們的成本這個發電的一個成本"},{"start":66.837,"end":84.813,"text":"也就是說我們現在一直在強調的就是說在戰爭的時候發電的成本是戰爭前的兩倍那它的數字到底是怎樣?這個部長可以說明一下嗎?現在就戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是"},{"start":86.506,"end":99.535,"text":"現在的 現在大概稍微跟最高點比起來是有恢復了一點但是我想我們現在目前雖然這個材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前"},{"start":100.615,"end":104.779,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":123.958,"end":127,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":146.03,"end":160.292,"text":"在國際上就是說整個這個國際的情勢會怎麼變化戰爭會不會再持續下去這件事好像是一個問號那是不是如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本那院長我們有可能說看這個時候要買多少"},{"start":162.523,"end":175.721,"text":"是的跟委員報告2021年之後臺電的這個燃料的成本上漲了大概兩倍大概6000億的支出所以造成當時的財務造成很大的一個困難那2023年之後"},{"start":177.523,"end":197.181,"text":"因為國際情勢稍緩原物料有稍微下降但是陳律委員所說的現在的國際情勢是相當的不穩定無法預期我們沒辦法預測台電在購煤等等的契約它都屬於一個比較長期的契約所以現在它所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況"},{"start":203.665,"end":223.298,"text":"在目前情況之下我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略買多或買少都可能將來是一個不知道怎麼樣的投資但是穩定先優先的話那目前必須要有一些作為這倒是應該參考委員的意見因為我們是在買的可能是過去購買的美所以可能還是在高價的美"},{"start":223.578,"end":223.598,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":252.554,"end":272.658,"text":"因為我們對於這個煤價這狀況是無法掌握的所以我們多在便宜的時候多買一點煤是不是也是一個應該要去考慮我們現在大概我想這個委員您應該很清楚就是說這個價格通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格特別是國際間的這個買賣都是這個樣子當然當然我們醫療我們醫療其實是這個低碳的這個天然氣會比較多"},{"start":282.496,"end":309.554,"text":"所以理論上我們應該是去把八額這個低碳的天然氣我們因為要減碳減碳是我們一個很大的目標所以燒火團的這個機械我們現在盡量不愛燒了所以那個保持我們過去的這個使用量要漸漸下去降所以我個人也有在討論啦對於這個命題我們還是要去討論是不是要"},{"start":310.515,"end":310.735,"text":"主席"},{"start":333.053,"end":353.839,"text":"這個我們在計畫上面是有這就是要有 你們有一個因應措施嘛 對不對就是說到底這個能源配比會決定到未來整個我們需要能源那我們要有多少的戰略佈局我們要的就是避免到因應國際情勢的不穩定然後這個價格在飆高的時候哇 台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊啊"},{"start":354.859,"end":380.595,"text":"對,我們在買這個材料就是有幾個方式啦就是說一個是我們如果說有這個預備的桶槽啊就載來我們的桶槽放,這是最方便啦另外一種是我們這個供應方在他那個地方放在那裡所以這個我們都會去考慮到未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的這個路程"},{"start":382.476,"end":409.816,"text":"這個總量的控制這個台電跟中油他們都有這個比較實際的這個Loading這樣的一個計畫在所以這個部分我們會參考我這個覺得真的有必要要說好第二個我要問因為台電事實上外面都給他一個名字這個名字聽起來我覺得還蠻好聽的就是說物價消波快"},{"start":410.794,"end":414.956,"text":"臺電這是外界給臺電公司的這個名確實他也肩負這樣的使命所以我們看起來在114到113年我們看到臺電為了穩定物價照顧民生跟弱勢的一個補貼那以及為了產業電價沒有調組的部分在"},{"start":432.785,"end":453.628,"text":"一百一十一年就二零二二年的時候﹐大概台電吸收了兩千八百億﹐在二零二三年的時候﹐吸收了兩千零八十六億﹐在二零二四年﹐吸收了一五五二億﹐這是這段時間﹐台電為了穩定物價﹐以及為了產業的發展﹐台電相對付出﹐那後來﹐我們知道說在今年年初的時候﹐"},{"start":454.369,"end":473.484,"text":"我們做了一個決定認為說這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔所以就把它未來我們會在各部門的預算來編築這部分需要來做照顧民生需要來做為對於弱勢包括農漁業包括學校包括社福團體的一個補助"},{"start":475.225,"end":488.082,"text":"所以我們如果意思這樣說的話請看一下我2024的這個表格他這個1552億的部分是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多"},{"start":489.185,"end":515.768,"text":"普天的政策我們正在做檢討現在已經部分回歸到目的事業主管機關去了而且過去三年公務機關沒有補足的這些預算我們也在明年的預算當中把它補足了將近百分之三十的漲幅幾年都沒有調公務預算這就是讓台電第一個能夠反映成本所以這一次在十月份的調整當中我們只集中在百分之五左右的這些比較用電"},{"start":516.889,"end":530.358,"text":"大戶對產業的用電大戶95%的住家小商店是動漲的所以台電還是部分要承受這樣一個補貼的政策台電的同仁風雨來的時候他要出去修電線"},{"start":532.279,"end":533.579,"text":"部長,明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎?"},{"start":561.548,"end":576.365,"text":"會的 不會增加他們的負擔 不會增加他們的負擔如果這個目的世界儲管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話也可以但是相對的有一些現在在我們動漲的範圍當中所涵蓋的也同樣不會增加他們的負擔好"},{"start":578.252,"end":606.044,"text":"那我再問下一題那就是一樣是針對台電啦台電的一個財務結構那我看起來台電的財務結構資產的部分每年都有在增加當然負債也在提高那這就是這幾年的一個台電的一個實際上面對的一個狀況但是有一個狀況我看到這個利息的支出越來越多台電利息的支出那利息的支出從過去大概大概是在"},{"start":609.09,"end":627.172,"text":"一百八十億的水平到了一百一十四年就增加到了三百二十億每年的一個利息的一個支出那利息的支出的增加這是每年持續要負擔的所以我想我們如果沒有辦法現在說趕快去把台電的虧損減少"},{"start":628.914,"end":651.972,"text":"意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付。這樣三百二十億的利息,這是很恐怖的,每年要產生的。所以我今天也要提出另外一個想法,就是說到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來擬補台電這件事我們不知道。"},{"start":653.137,"end":680.77,"text":"我們真的不知道我們希望說大家為了台灣的整體的電力的發展我們希望說這個預算是可以通過但是我們不知道最後會不會通過嘛所以我也是會想說那到底還有什麼措施可以去幫台電去改善它的一個財務的一個結構我後來看到這個利息啦我看到這個利息我也想要問一下說那既然有這樣的利息就是跟銀行借的那它主要集中在哪些銀行是關股的銀行嗎"},{"start":683.114,"end":683.134,"text":"臺灣銀行"},{"start":697.121,"end":718,"text":"臺灣銀行最多數那如果是臺灣銀行的話就是百分之百是政府經營的銀行所以這部分能不能就銀行面也可以去幫臺電做一些利息上的一個吸收讓臺電先減少利息的支出這個也是一個可以去思考的方向第二個我希望"},{"start":718.681,"end":733.786,"text":"因為我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多我也希望台電在於說跟銀行要借貸的時候要慎選銀行不要變成說讓銀行勒讓銀行就是平白無故"},{"start":734.636,"end":762.002,"text":"他就得到了這樣的一個放寡因為大家都對台電有信心啊台電一定會支付利息的台電那我可以來看理性所以我是覺得說盡量還是要跟台銀來借啦因為台銀畢竟他就是畢竟他還是政府的當然是說台電你們有怎樣的一個規劃可是我覺得避免利息的增加然後產生弊端這個我是覺得跟委員報告確實資料上看起來是台電的"},{"start":763.291,"end":765.292,"text":"。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":793.538,"end":794.759,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":810.147,"end":831.334,"text":"你把這個事件一攤三百幾,我看起來我就嚇一跳,所以我覺得這個事趕快把一些負債趕快把它攤掉,然後利息再趕,就是說我們這個需要利息的費用再把它壓下來,對於台電就馬上會有一些很快的一個減少你們的現金支出啊。"},{"start":833.486,"end":841.769,"text":"謝謝委員這個部分有關於這個臺電的這個財務方面在融資上面我想我們會來努力來降低這個應繳這個利息的這個金額"},{"start":846.343,"end":873.761,"text":"第二,我要感謝台電這幾年在推動電纜地下化,事實上有蠻不錯的成績,不管是在屏東這個種樹百里,那邊現在很漂亮,甚至在我們鋪子市也有這個開源路的電纜地下化,但是我們也知道說,在於小選颱風之後,我們知道了說有一些紅胎,每一架紅胎來,電位條就都倒了,"},{"start":876.724,"end":884.473,"text":"電費條對,所以我是希望說臺電我們應該再去盤整說我們電纜地下化會支出一些成本嘛,先本會比採電費條更高"},{"start":886.118,"end":889.459,"text":"阿如果這個成本你們香蕉對焦去把它拉起來做電纜地下化相對比較齁動動的時間比較久"},{"start":907.643,"end":936.5,"text":"新聞優等來看是比較會好的我覺得台電應該好好地去思考盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化而且這個推動的速度再大力一點是 報告委員我們會再考量在地質、地理跟工程技術、裁員等這幾個前提之下來評估地下化的可行性我認為這地下化台灣真的是電費條太多為了整個台灣的整個街景四隆"},{"start":941.389,"end":941.531,"text":"。（10月29日（。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（14時30分）謝謝院長，我們有請卓院長、經濟部郭部長以及台電曾董事長。"],["主席：跟蔡委員報告一下，台電不能備詢，不是部長，好不好？"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那就部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長跟經濟部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長好。院長，我們今天討論的主要就是國家的能源配比跟電價政策，這當然涉及到未來我們希望立法院可以排案來審，是不是可以來追加這個2,000億，作為台電未來的補充？所以我想還是要跟院長先聊一下現在台電的成本、發電的成本，也就是說，我們現在一直在強調的是，在戰爭的時候，發電的成本是戰爭前的2倍，那它的數字到底是怎樣？這個部長可以說明一下嗎？以及現在的部分，就是戰爭的時候最高點跟現在大概是怎麼樣的情形？"],["郭部長智輝：現在跟最高點比起來是有回復了一點，但是目前雖然材料的成本已經回到俄烏戰爭之前差不多的高點……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以是回到俄烏戰爭前？俄烏戰爭的時候最高嘛，那也是造成那兩年台電的虧損非常的巨大，主要就是購料的成本。"],["郭部長智輝：那個時候就是因為它的成本比較高，然後我們又對民眾……我們的民生電價是凍漲，那個時候民生電價是凍漲，所以造成這個虧損。"],["蔡委員易餘：有幾個因素，我想跟院長、部長先聊這個購煤的成本，如果現在不管是天然氣或者是煤價都相對回到戰爭前的因素的話，未來在國際上，整個國際的情勢會怎麼變化？戰爭會不會再持續下去？這件事好像是一個問號，如果現在已經是戰爭前的成本，那麼院長，我們有沒有考慮趁這個時候多買一些？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，跟委員報告，2021年之後，台電的燃料成本上漲了2倍，大概6,000億的支出，所以對當時的財務造成很大的困難，而2023年之後，因為國際情勢稍緩，原物料價格有稍微下降，但是誠如委員所說的，現在的國際情勢相當的不穩定，我們無法預期。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們無法預測。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，台電在購煤等等的契約都是屬於一個比較長期的契約，所以現在它所面臨的可能不一定是現在最低價的狀況，它可能有長期的契約，而我們現在是說，如果現在有穩定的供貨來源，在目前的情況之下，我們想經濟部要跟台電去檢討，目前我們該採取什麼樣的策略，買多或買少將來都可能是不知道怎麼樣的投資，但是穩定優先的話，目前必須要有一些作為，這倒是應該參考委員的意見。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為我們事實上買的可能是過去購買的煤，所以可能還是在高價的煤。"],["卓院長榮泰：可能。"],["蔡委員易餘：我現在只是要藉由這個機會，我覺得我們也是要去判斷，畢竟未來的局勢不知道啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果現在這個煤價好不容易回到戰爭前、相對低價，說不定這個時候我們不出手，未來萬一歐洲有狀況、俄羅斯再亂一次，那怎麼辦？所以台電長久的因應，因為我們對於煤價的狀況是無法掌握的，所以我們在便宜的時候多買一點煤，是不是也是應該要去考慮？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在大概……我想委員應該很清楚，通常是供需之間的關係來決定價格，特別是國際間的買賣都是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然、當然！"],["郭部長智輝：我們以後其實是低碳的天然氣會比較多，所以理論上，我們應該是去把握低碳的天然氣。我們因為要減碳，減碳是我們一個很大的目標，所以燒煤炭的機械，我們現在就儘量不燒了，所以保持我們過去的使用量，然後漸漸降下去。我個人也有在討論，就是這個命題我們還是要去討論，是不是要做那麼高的保護，因為我們是要多元的綠能。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這樣問題就來了嘛！如果說天然氣是比較占主體，我們天然氣現在儲放的，包括我們接收站的進度，包括那裡的儲放槽是不是可以再多一點？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們在計畫上面是有。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們要有一個因應措施嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個能源配比會決定未來整個我們需要能源，那我們要有多少的戰略布局，我們要避免及因應國際情勢的不穩定，然後價格在飆高的時候，台電又會面對一次這樣的衝擊。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們在買這個材料有幾個方式，如果說我們有預備的桶槽，就載來我們的桶槽放，這是一種方法。另外一種是放在供應方那邊，這個我們都會去考慮到，包括未來在使用上面的安全跟運輸上面的路程。我想總量的控制，台電跟中油他們都有比較實際的、rolling的計畫在，所以這個部分我們會參考……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這真的有必要思考好。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個我要問，對於台電，外界都給它一個名字，這個名字聽起來，我覺得還滿好聽的，叫做物價消波塊！這是外界給台電公司的名字，確實它也肩負這樣的使命，所以在110到113年，我們看到台電為了穩定物價，照顧民生跟弱勢的補貼，以及為了產業電價沒有調足的部分，在111（2022）年的時候，大概台電吸收了2,800億，在2023年的時候吸收了2,086億，在2024年吸收了1,552億，這是這段時間，台電為了穩定物價以及為了產業的發展，台電相對付出、它去吸收的。後來我們知道在今年年初的時候，我們做了一個決定，認為這部分不應該再由台電個人來負擔，所以未來我們會在各部門的預算來編足這部分，作為照顧民生、弱勢，包括農漁業、包括學校、包括社福團體的補助。如果我們這樣說的話，請看一下我2024的這個表格，在1,552億的部分，是不是明年度台電這部分的支出就會短少很多？"],["卓院長榮泰：補貼的政策我們正在檢討，現在已經部分回歸目的事業主管機關去了，而且過去三年，公務機關沒有補足的這些預算，我們也在明年的預算當中，把它補足了將近30%的漲幅，幾年都沒有調公務預算；這就是讓台電，第一個能夠反映成本。這次在10月份的調整當中，我們只集中在5%左右這些產業用電大戶，95%的住家、小商店是凍漲的，所以台電還是要部分承受這樣的補貼政策。台電的同仁，風雨來的時候，他要出去修電線，物價在漲的時候，他要擋住、穩定物價，所以經常是非常辛苦的，我們最近會對台電的同仁做比較大的一些感謝動作。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。所以，部長，我想要問一下，如果我們希望未來由台電來負擔，比方說一些弱勢團體的補助，回到部會，把預算拉回到部會，事實上，院長剛剛就有說，明年對這些弱勢團體的照顧一樣會持續嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：會的。"],["蔡委員易餘：會持續？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會增加他們的負擔。如果這個目的事業主管機關可以用預算來進行補貼的話，也可以，但是相對的有一些現在在我們凍漲範圍當中所涵蓋的，也同樣不會增加他們的負擔。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那我再問下一題，一樣是針對台電的財務結構，看起來台電的資產每年都有在增加，負債也在提高，這就是這幾年台電實際上面對的狀況，但是我也看到利息的支出越來越多，台電的利息支出從過去大概180億的水平，到114年就會增加到320億，利息支出的增加是每年持續要負擔的，所以，我們如果沒有辦法趕快減少台電的虧損，意思就是這些利息還是要持續支付，每年會產生320億的利息，實在很恐怖。所以我在這裡提出另外一個想法，就是到底未來立法院的多數黨會不會同意讓台電來追加這兩個年度各一千億、兩千億來彌補台電這件事，我們真的不知道。我們希望大家為了臺灣整體電力的發展，可以讓這個預算通過，但是我們不知道最後會不會通過，所以我也在想到底還有什麼措施可以幫台電改善財務結構。我後來看到這個利息支出，我也想要問一下，既然有這樣的利息，就是跟銀行借的，請問主要集中在哪些銀行？是官股銀行嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分，報告委員我是不清楚。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得回去可以問一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我回去以後了解……"],["蔡委員易餘：據我私下了解應該是臺灣銀行最多，如果是臺灣銀行的話，就是百分之百政府經營的銀行，這部分能不能在銀行面，也可以去幫台電做一些利息上的吸收，讓台電先減少利息支出，這也是一個可以去思考的方向。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二，我看到這兩年利息增加這麼多，我也希望台電在跟銀行借貸的時候要慎選銀行，不要變成讓銀行平白無故得到這樣一個放款，因為大家都對台電有信心啊，台電一定會支付利息的，台電哪有可能欠利息？所以我是覺得儘量還是要跟臺銀借，因為臺銀畢竟就是政府的，當然台電要有規劃，可是我覺得避免利息增加然後產生弊端，這個我是覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，確實資料上看起來是臺銀貸款的額度比較大，如果我們能夠從利率或是新的措施上面著手，降低台電的利息……但是也不會影響臺銀比較大的營利……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，我覺得如果跟臺銀借錢，因為兩個都是官股，兩個官股之間就可以去調整，但如果去跟其他民間銀行貸款的話，那要他們利息算便宜一點，我想不可能，這個要注意。因此我要再呼籲，這兩千億真的很重要，應該趕快把這兩千億和一些負債打消，何必讓銀行去賺這個錢？你只要想一年三百多億的利息，我就嚇一跳，所以我覺得應該趕快把一些負債攤掉，把利息的費用壓下來，馬上就可以很快減少台電的現金支出。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，有關台電的財務、融資，我想我們會努力來降低應繳的利息。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，我要感謝台電這幾年推動電纜地下化，事實上有蠻不錯的成績，不管是在屏東種樹百里，那邊現在很漂亮，甚至是我們朴子市開元路的電纜地下化，但是在小犬颱風之後，我們知道有一些颱風，每一次颱風來，電線桿就都倒了。所以我是希望台電，我們應該再去盤整，電纜地下化會支出一些成本，成本會比豎電線桿還高，但是每一次颱風來，電線桿倒了，我們就要那麼多員工，甚至還發包出去給一個下游的配合廠商做電線桿修繕，那也是成本。如果這個成本你們相較之下，去把它拉起來做電纜地下化，能撐的時間相對上比較久，將成本拉長來看是不是比較划算？我覺得台電應該好好思考，盤整到底哪裡還可以電纜地下化，而且這個推動的速度再大力一點。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們會再考量在地質、地理及工程、技術、財源等這幾個前提之下，評估地下化的可行性。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得地下化，臺灣真的是電線桿太多了。為了臺灣的整個街景、市容，我們儘量推動一些地下化是正確的，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢。","接下來請登記第11位洪申翰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f3473651a077513aca16e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63e18d508fe8f4599eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:57:14 - 12:12:49","影片長度":"00:15:35","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T11:57:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T12:12:49+08:00","duration":935,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":1.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.700343750000002,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.67846875,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.454093750000002,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.23034375,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.258468750000002,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.35596875,"end":59.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.24534375,"end":60.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.337843750000005,"end":61.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.17721875,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.18971875,"end":64.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.05034375000001,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.41721875,"end":68.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.20159375,"end":92.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.66284375000001,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.04596875,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.29409375,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.42409375000001,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.69784375,"end":111.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.14846875,"end":115.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.77659375,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.11409375000001,"end":118.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.20221875000001,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.02034375000001,"end":129.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.45471875000001,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.31034375000002,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.34784375,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.43534375000002,"end":198.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.51471875000001,"end":217.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.31346875000003,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.55784375000002,"end":225.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.95346875,"end":230.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.32409375,"end":240.49971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.49971875000003,"end":245.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.57909375000003,"end":259.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.62971875000002,"end":246.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.47971875,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.17534375,"end":265.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.23409375,"end":273.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.47034375000004,"end":266.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.79096875,"end":267.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.64221875000004,"end":279.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.75096875,"end":284.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.37471875,"end":290.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.57221875,"end":295.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.17034375000003,"end":300.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.64221875000004,"end":305.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.87346875000003,"end":312.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.75846875,"end":315.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.72846875000005,"end":320.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.16221875,"end":348.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.43721875,"end":346.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.67284375,"end":363.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.71471875000003,"end":350.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.93221875,"end":362.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.00784375,"end":376.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.27659375,"end":372.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.14096875,"end":382.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.55346875000004,"end":392.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.62784375,"end":396.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.86346875000004,"end":397.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.16721875,"end":398.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.17534375,"end":427.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.76159375000003,"end":436.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.02596875,"end":438.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.30846875000003,"end":439.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.47284375000004,"end":444.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.02534375000005,"end":441.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.15971875,"end":447.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.50534375,"end":454.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.96034375000005,"end":453.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.39034375000006,"end":458.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.23346875000004,"end":461.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.08971875000003,"end":461.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.10659375,"end":462.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.12346875000003,"end":465.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.63346875,"end":468.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.35034375000004,"end":470.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.37971875000005,"end":469.54409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.01221875000005,"end":480.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.21471875000003,"end":473.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.42846875000004,"end":485.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.28846875000005,"end":499.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.59221875000003,"end":486.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.64909375,"end":510.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.71909375,"end":534.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.0190937500001,"end":542.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.4228437500001,"end":543.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.8615937500001,"end":563.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.18346875,"end":563.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.5547187500001,"end":596.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.10659375,"end":596.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.78159375,"end":597.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.06846875,"end":597.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.11909375,"end":597.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.1359687500001,"end":597.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.40596875,"end":597.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.52409375,"end":597.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.94596875,"end":601.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.18596875,"end":612.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.10096875,"end":605.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.1047187500001,"end":608.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.8215937500001,"end":612.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.42471875,"end":612.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.5090937500001,"end":612.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.57659375,"end":612.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.7790937500001,"end":622.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.7353437500001,"end":631.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.69159375,"end":642.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.3103437500001,"end":648.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.1709687499999,"end":643.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.22909375,"end":657.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.59534375,"end":656.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.2278437500001,"end":668.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.41659375,"end":664.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.56846875,"end":664.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.6528437500001,"end":664.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.78721875,"end":671.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.51284375,"end":689.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.8372187500001,"end":674.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.18221875,"end":679.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.62784375,"end":697.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.62221875,"end":700.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.17909375,"end":704.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.4990937500002,"end":704.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.56221875,"end":711.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.5790937500001,"end":705.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.2065937500001,"end":714.0122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.4384687500001,"end":729.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.4922187500001,"end":721.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.5590937500001,"end":724.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.2040937500001,"end":737.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.55284375,"end":740.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.07971875,"end":750.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.53409375,"end":756.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":757.1615937500001,"end":759.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.8615937500001,"end":772.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.44596875,"end":803.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.3803437500001,"end":788.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":803.8884687500001,"end":808.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.00596875,"end":823.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":817.74284375,"end":817.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":817.7934687500001,"end":818.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":822.9909687500001,"end":829.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.4878437500001,"end":832.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":831.54659375,"end":835.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.93034375,"end":833.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.35221875,"end":834.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.2253437500001,"end":835.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":835.6472187500001,"end":836.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":836.86221875,"end":846.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.32096875,"end":844.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":844.9622187500001,"end":845.1140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":846.7678437500001,"end":848.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":849.23159375,"end":850.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":850.8515937500001,"end":865.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":865.65096875,"end":867.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":867.38909375,"end":874.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":875.9109687500002,"end":882.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":882.55971875,"end":885.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.1372187500001,"end":889.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.01846875,"end":890.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":890.03534375,"end":894.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.10221875,"end":895.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":895.5703437500001,"end":897.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":897.8147187500001,"end":899.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.6753437500001,"end":905.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":906.1003437500001,"end":908.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.96909375,"end":910.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":911.21346875,"end":912.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":927.12659375,"end":931.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":931.61534375,"end":933.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":933.9778437500001,"end":934.9734687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.411,"end":1.319,"text":"麻煩再請左院長備詢"},{"start":10.641,"end":33.932,"text":"院長好 剛剛很多委員都不給你時間好好的回答那事實上在我們這個不管是能源配比或是發展再生能源的傳統的跟再生的我相信都有所謂的廢棄物這些廢棄物如何的去化那就是我們現在積極要在還沒有遇到問題之前循環經濟要做得好我想"},{"start":35.112,"end":40.455,"text":"臺灣的中小企業傳統產業也會碰到如同我們需要建置循環經濟去化廢棄物的一個非常重要的因素那我接著就要問喔景氣"},{"start":63.26,"end":92.178,"text":"上個月我們都認為說傳統產業經濟有回春但是我們今天看到報紙上這個傳統產業的經濟景氣好像是曇花一現因為9月份又回到黃紅燈那院長中小企業剛剛你有回答其他的委員說我們也非常重視扶植中小企業微型產業我們也願意編預算要來扶植那我請院長跟部長"},{"start":93.158,"end":121.508,"text":"是不是可以第一個就這個中小企業的這個景氣回春不如預期那我們行政院要如何的來扶植就明年的中央政府總預算委員也應該清楚我們有編了115億對於中小企業的多元振興方案所以對於傳產跟中小企業我們希望將他輔導他能夠快速進入到一個數位轉型的年代他才能跟得上潮流"},{"start":122.268,"end":149.313,"text":"這是我們現在的做法那其他對於一些節能的補助我們在經濟部也本來就有它現行的機制在處理我知道所以我要提醒院長跟部長喔這個第一個我們的一百多億的補助我們希望呢在未來總預算希望呢朝野各黨都能夠支持之下趕快通過那預算通過之後如何執行我希望執行呢是讓中小企業微型產業是看得到吃得到"},{"start":149.873,"end":177.156,"text":"這是第一點很重要所以這個申請的程序的簡化我每一次總質詢都會不斷的提醒第二個是在於我們現在限縮在要輔導他數位轉型要淨零碳排方向沒有錯但是呢請思考一點中小企業要投入這個要接受政府的補助的時候他自己也要再投資那在現在景氣還沒有完全回春看不到春天的情況之下一樣"},{"start":178.036,"end":197.615,"text":"臺議一句話 青椒不夠 要怎麼拔光所以呢 如果政府的扶植那中小企業還要再投資那我們政府又如何在他的投資如果遇到困難遇到挑戰的時候政府又如何能夠再幫助他我覺得要方方面面都要想到才能夠真正的把這一百多億的"},{"start":198.556,"end":217.81,"text":"福祉預算可以把它擴大無限大真正幫助到中小企業微型產業的不管是數位轉型也好或是淨零碳排的目標也好這個我想包括環境部包括經濟部包括國發會都必須要跨部會在行政院的指導指教領導之下要能夠做得到是不是院長"},{"start":219.659,"end":240.475,"text":"是,如果是財務的部分我們透過中小企業的信保機制可以給他一些比較低利的貸款至於說如果是人員的訓練的話他要訓練足夠的AI人員我們希望用政府的力量來幫他訓練他應該不需要付出其他的這個費用、經費那這樣人員跟錢都有了我們還有其他的政策來協助他"},{"start":240.835,"end":258.766,"text":"委員長你講一個人人不是只有政府來幫他訓練是這個人也很難找今天報紙有講到全國大缺工也希望行政院能夠帶頭來開會來討論在面臨少子化的當下還有呢我們呢相關的不確定因素情況之下這個"},{"start":260.487,"end":289.553,"text":"不管是人才不管是員工這個各行各業都缺工我們對於缺工對於低薪帶引進外國的中階技術人員我們都一直在討論到禮拜天還在討論是所以我希望能夠更進一步的看到行政院在跨部會的這個合作之下我再強調一次我們對於中小企業微型企業的一個扶植是要能夠到位真正能夠落實來部長好像有事"},{"start":289.933,"end":315.055,"text":"這部分我想要謝謝這個委員在前幾天有指導過我們的這個產發署確實是如你所說的我們確實在執行上面有利有未待之處然後沒有很落實到最後的微型企業這一點我大概從那一天這個委員的指導之下我們大概非常清楚我們會改正這一部分一定要能夠落實到"},{"start":315.796,"end":315.816,"text":"委員長"},{"start":344.016,"end":363.038,"text":"我希望委員會來好好的去盤點這個執行的方式那這個中小企業跟微型企業呢最關心的就是政府的補助他們能不能受惠能不能感受到政府的支持跟溫暖因為我一直強調"},{"start":364.139,"end":386.987,"text":"半導體很重要臺灣的護國神山但是呢中小企業微型企業也很重要他是我們的護國群山他照顧了最多最多的臺灣在地的員工我們執行的人員會來請教這個這個委員的經驗希望委員能夠多多指導一下所以院長那中小企業微型企業呢關心的也是什麼民生的議題嗎電價"},{"start":388.807,"end":389.649,"text":"本院內政委員會提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":403.749,"end":427.399,"text":"那前幾天賴總統也在開會的時候有說要強化電網韌性而且呢原來要求台電10年完成的一個計畫要能夠提早4年希望2028呢就能夠優先完成關鍵的區域跟民生相關的關鍵工程那院長請問我們政府現在準備的狀況如何那如何提早"},{"start":427.779,"end":447.019,"text":"好這個電網韌性的這部分原來編列的5600億的預算10年完成那現在我們希望他能縮短到2028年完成因為總統認為早一天完成對供電安全有幫忙所以要求早一天完成所以就責任經濟部我們希望他即使動用一些獎勵措施都沒有問題"},{"start":447.56,"end":458.505,"text":"早一天完成也可以早一天達到淨零碳排的我們的總目標啊 對不對因為我們都知道 來 部長對不起 這個我們現在目前已經都把那些表做出來"},{"start":459.515,"end":480.804,"text":"做表很簡單啊部長然後我要求這個做表了之後如何去執行到位才是重點執行中已經在執行中我們希望能夠這樣的做法在明年的上半年可以把所有的紅區全部把它消滅掉"},{"start":480.964,"end":499.565,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":499.685,"end":499.745,"text":"主席"},{"start":515.342,"end":542.48,"text":"這個光是一般民生的申請用電啊那個排隊是白幹肉肉等啊有時候可能還要排到半年欸才等得到所以我現在在講那現在這樣子的一個總統要求提早四年要把這個電網韌性啊要把它提早完成建置因為這牽涉到什麼第一個穩定供電我們的電網輸配電的電網如果沒有改善的話我們現在老舊的電網它的輸配電啊是耗電的"},{"start":543.507,"end":543.527,"text":"。 三"},{"start":563.635,"end":583.454,"text":"我們現在這個地區已經都知道在哪裡然後人力因為現在比較不足所以我們現在跟勞動部正在談如何快速把這一些橋外生或者是國外的這個移工進來但是他們要考照所以他必須要透過一個訓練然後去考照"},{"start":583.954,"end":600.6,"text":"先進來的人先做不需要技術性的工作但是一年以後當他考到執照以後他就可以做台電的這個下包去服務剛才委員所關心的所以是專案的我們現在一直在進行啊一直在進行"},{"start":601.44,"end":621.871,"text":"專案引進外籍移工、引進技術工、在台的橋外生我們希望也輔導他們能夠進入這個職場然後輔導他們的專業跟考照大家比較擔心說他會不會進到台電沒有,他是台電下包的公司所以不會侵犯到台電員工的福利"},{"start":622.811,"end":648.352,"text":"我們都考慮了很多這個也在這個院長的這個指導之下我們跟勞動部都已經談了已經快人都快引進來了但我剛剛問的這個是工的問題對不對那關鍵的區域呢民生的關鍵工程這個是總統指示的我們要提早的對對對這個我們還是進行既有的人力趕快的把那個紅區的部分"},{"start":649.635,"end":668.22,"text":"黨會解決那這個就是什麼人比較多的地方設備比較老舊的地方增加住屋比較多的地方都盤點出來了那如果都盤點出來那為什麼大家對台電的穩定公信還是不太有信心我所以我這裡還頁面上特別回復全民對台電的信心是我們的責任"},{"start":668.86,"end":697.56,"text":"是啦 報告委員 為什麼最近你看我的頁面上最近幾次喔雖然不是大規模停電但是呢小區域的停電還是不斷啊我們中小企業、微型產業不管是服務業也好或是一般民生用電也好關心的就是我剛剛講的停電如果是無預警的停電的話損失是誰在承擔是民眾在承擔是產業在承擔是業者在承擔而這些成本"},{"start":699.62,"end":720.92,"text":"我們有一些跟地方政府必須要再強化溝通啦有些國家高壓轉到這個中低壓的部分必須要設變壓站但是那個變壓站如果不讓我們設的話他那個地方就是紅區了這個不是跟地方政府溝通這個是要跟在地居民溝通而且是要讓居民恢復對台電的信心以及認為"},{"start":721.881,"end":726.045,"text":"本院內政院議員提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。 三"},{"start":737.594,"end":756.089,"text":"但是我們現在上來的我們台電的同仁的努力之下現在台北市政府撥給我們那個設置那個變電站所以這個是一個非常這個改變非常大的我會建議經濟部跟我們環境部跟衛生福利部要跨部會的去合作合作什麼第一個"},{"start":758.011,"end":772.566,"text":"盤點過去的設計規劃的預定地到底在現在有的已經是20年前的規劃不是現在的規劃那要重新去檢討這第一個第二個我們應該就這個我剛提醒的"},{"start":773.467,"end":773.487,"text":"。 三"},{"start":804.227,"end":829.342,"text":"設置突破現在的盲點這個不是我們應該要積極的嗎?我們持續在進行我們一直都在進行這一方面事實上現在我們的同仁的努力改善了很多啦改善了很多這個如果說我們調資料來看過去的幾年到現在我們真的是改善非常多但是我剛剛講了跟衛生福利部跟環境部的這個共同的合作目前是沒有看到的"},{"start":829.582,"end":847.216,"text":"是這個是一個非常好的這個這個意見你同意嗎對環境的影響是對健康的影響到底有沒有到底能不能讓民眾居民放心來支持我覺得這個很重要是最後的最後才會跟你講真正電網"},{"start":849.298,"end":874.309,"text":"任性有沒有到位裁判是誰裁判是民眾嘛就人民嘛大家對台電有沒有信心大家對我們的政府的穩定供電有沒有信心大家對這個供電的相關的設施設備會不會造成他生活中的影響這個都是我們政府要去積極的溝通跟面對因為什麼人民民眾是裁判所以民眾一般人最關心什麼院長"},{"start":875.95,"end":889.033,"text":"無預警停電的次數在我們投資這麼多來電網韌性能夠逐步到位之後無預警停電的次數可不可以減少第二個無預警停電的範圍可不可以縮小"},{"start":890.326,"end":890.346,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":927.145,"end":933.515,"text":"好,謝謝何信成委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長及各位部委首長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢我們到此為止。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":700,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時57分）謝謝院長。我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：院長好。剛剛很多委員都不給你時間好好回答，事實上不管是能源配比或發展再生能源，不論傳統與再生，我相信都有廢棄物。至於這些廢棄物如何去化，那就是我們現在要積極在還沒有遇到問題之前，就要把循環經濟做好，希望環境部也應該趕快來思考這個問題，包括剛剛部長講的，經濟部、工研院已經發展出相關的技術與專業。我為什麼要提到這點？臺灣占九成以上都是中小企業，臺灣的中小企業、傳統產業也會碰到相同問題，這是我們需要建置循環經濟，去化廢棄物的一個非常重要的因素。","我接著就要問景氣。上個月我們都認為傳統產業經濟有回春，但今天報紙寫傳統產業的經濟景氣好像曇花一現，因為9月份又回到黃紅燈。院長，針對中小企業，剛剛你有回答其他委員說，我們也非常重視扶植中小企業微型產業，我們也願意編預算來扶植。院長、部長，第一個，就中小企業景氣回春不如預期，請問行政院要如何來扶植？"],["卓院長榮泰：就明年的中央政府總預算來說，我想委員也應該清楚，我們編了115億的中小企業多元振興方案，對於傳產與中小企業，我們希望輔導它能夠快速進入數位轉型年代，這樣它才能跟得上潮流，這是我們現在的作法。至於其他對於節能的補助，經濟部本來就有現行的機制在處理。"],["何委員欣純：我知道，所以我要提醒院長跟部長，這100多億的補助，希望未來總預算能在朝野各黨支持之下趕快通過，而預算通過之後如何執行？我希望能讓中小企業微型產業看得到、吃得到，這是第一點，這點很重要。所以申請程序的簡化，我每一次總質詢都會不斷的提醒。第二個，我們現在限縮在要輔導它數位轉型、要淨零碳排，方向沒有錯，但是請思考一點，中小企業要投入這個，要接受政府補助的時候，它自己也要再投資，但在現在景氣還沒有完全回春，看不到春天的情況之下，就像臺語一句話「生吃都不夠，要怎麼曬乾」，所以如果政府的扶植，而中小企業還要再投資，那我們政府又如何在它的投資如果遇到困難、遇到挑戰的時候，政府又如何能夠再幫助它？我覺得方方面面都要想到，才能夠真正的把這一百多億的扶植預算，可以把它擴大到無限大，真正幫助到中小企業、微型產業，不管是數位轉型也好，或是淨零碳排的目標也好，這個我想包括環境部，包括經濟部，包括國發會，都必須要跨部會，在行政院的指導之下、領導之下，要能夠做得到，是不是？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，如果是財務的部分，我們透過中小企業的信保機制，可以給它一些比較低利的貸款，至於說如果是人員訓練的話，它要訓練足夠的AI人員，我們希望用政府的力量來幫它訓練，它應該不需要付出其他的費用、經費，這樣的話人員跟錢都有了，我們還有其他的政策來協助它。"],["何委員欣純：院長，你講到一個人，人不是只有政府來幫它訓練，是這個人也很難找。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["何委員欣純：今天報紙也有講到全國大缺工，也希望行政院能夠帶頭來開會、來討論，在面臨少子化的當下，還有我們相關的不確定因素情況之下，不管是人才，不管是員工，各行各業都缺工，這是跨部會的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對於缺工，對於低薪，對於引進外國的中階技術人員，我們都一直在討論，到禮拜天還在討論。"],["何委員欣純：所以我希望能夠更進一步的看到行政院在跨部會的合作之下，我再強調一次，我們對於中小企業、微型企業的扶植，是要能夠到位，真正能夠落實啦。來，部長，你好像有話要講。"],["郭部長智輝：這部分，我想要謝謝委員在前幾天有指導過我們的產發署，確實是如你所說的，我們在執行上面確實有力有未逮之處，然後沒有很落實到最後的微型企業，這一點大概從那一天委員的指導之下，我們大概非常清楚，我們會來改正，這一部分一定要能夠落實到可以做的企業。我們過去，可能他們的習慣就是前面，領頭者自己那邊做一做之後，下面都沒在管，所以以大帶小的意思並不是那一天我們那個署長講的那個方式，以大帶小應該是委員你所指導的方式，所以我們會從供應鏈下手，然後到最後受惠的時候，普惠到這些微型小企業，這部分我們會來好好的把這件事情做好。"],["何委員欣純：部長，我希望你應該好好的去盤點，盤點執行的方式，因為中小企業跟微型企業最關心的就是政府的補助他們能不能受惠，能不能感受到政府的支持跟溫暖。"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：因為我一直強調，半導體很重要，臺灣的護國神山，但是中小企業、微型企業也很重要，它是我們的護國群山，它照顧了最多最多的臺灣在地的員工。"],["郭部長智輝：我們執行的人員會來請教委員的經驗，希望委員能夠多多指導一下。"],["何委員欣純：所以院長，中小企業、微型企業關心的是什麼？民生的議題嘛！電價、穩定供電，不要停電，也是我們這一次專題，最重要的一個專案報告裡面最重要的一件事嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["何委員欣純：尤其穩定供電、不要停電，大家都會講，但是怎麼做是最重要的。前幾天賴總統在開會的時候也說要強化電網韌性，而且要求台電原來10年完成的一個計畫，要能夠提早4年，希望2028年就能夠優先完成關鍵的區域跟民生相關的關鍵工程，院長，請問我們政府現在準備的狀況如何？如何提早？"],["卓院長榮泰：電網韌性的部分，原來編列5,600億的預算，10年完成，現在我們希望它能縮短到2028年完成，因為總統認為早一天完成，對供電安全有幫忙，所以要求早一天完成。"],["何委員欣純：是啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以就責成經濟部，我們希望它即使動用一些獎勵措施都沒有問題。"],["何委員欣純：早一天完成，也可以早一天達到我們淨零碳排的總目標，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們現在……"],["何委員欣純：因為我們都知道，來，部長。"],["郭部長智輝：對不起。我們現在目前已經都把那些表做出來了。"],["何委員欣純：做表很簡單啦！部長。"],["郭部長智輝：對，然後我要求台電……"],["何委員欣純：表做好之後，如何去執行到位才是重點啦！對不對？因為說真的……"],["卓院長榮泰：正在執行中，已經在執行了。"],["郭部長智輝：執行中，已經在執行中。我們希望透過這樣的作法，能夠在明年的上半年，把所有的紅區全部消化掉。"],["何委員欣純：來，部長，那我問你，你說表已做好正在執行中，那關鍵區域在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：關鍵就是說……"],["何委員欣純：你的時程提早，我跟你講，表我看了很多，10年的規劃我也看了好幾年，我做到現在是第四任的立委，大概也看了好幾次，問題是如何去落實，如何提早4年，那必須要有方法，這不是只有投入經費的問題而已喔！尤其我剛剛講到缺工，你自己去問台電，所有台電在各地的工班嚴重缺工，光是一般民生的申請用電，排隊就排得躼躼長（lò-lò-tn̂g，大排長龍）有時候可能還要排半年才等得到。我現在講的是，針對這樣的現況，總統要求提早4年把電網的韌性建置完成，因為這個牽涉到什麼？第一個，穩定供電。我們的輸配電電網如果沒有改善的話，現在靠老舊的電網做輸配電是耗電的，是不夠節電的，這不符合現代科技要淨零碳排的要求，所以要提早要有方法。你剛剛講說已經做好表，把時程表提早，那第一個，我們要優先處理的關鍵區域在哪裡？我們要優先處理的民生關鍵工程又是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：地區這部分，我們現在已經都知道在哪裡，因為現在人力比較不足，所以我們現在跟勞動部正在談，如何快速把這一些僑外生，或者是國外的移工引進來，但是他們要考照，所以他必須要透過一個訓練，然後去考照。先進來的人，先做不需要技術性的工作，但是一年以後，當他考到執照以後，他就可以做台電的下包，去服務剛才委員所關心的事情……"],["何委員欣純：所以是專案的？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在一直在進行，一直在進行。"],["何委員欣純：專案的引進外籍移工，引進技術工，然後在台的僑外生，我們希望也輔導他們能夠進入這個職場，然後輔導他們的專業跟考照？"],["郭部長智輝：對，也是，大家比較擔心的是，他會不會進到台電，沒有，他是台電的下包公司，所以不會侵犯到台電員工的福利，我們都考慮了很多，在院長的指導之下，我們跟勞動部都已經談過了，人都快引進來了。"],["何委員欣純：我剛剛問的這是工的問題，對不對？那關鍵的區域呢？民生的關鍵工程呢？這是總統指示的，我們要提早的。"],["郭部長智輝：對對對，這個我們還是繼續進行，既有的人力把紅區的部分趕快解決，就是人比較多的地方，設備比較老舊的地方，增加住屋比較多的地方……"],["何委員欣純：所以這個都盤點出來了？"],["郭部長智輝：都盤點出來了。"],["何委員欣純：好，如果都盤點出來了，為什麼大家對於台電的穩定供需還是不太有信心？所以我的頁面上還特別講，恢復全民對台電的信心是我們的責任耶。"],["郭部長智輝：是啦。報告委員，現在是這樣，有的配電盤太老舊……"],["何委員欣純：是嘛，為什麼？你看我的頁面上，最近幾次雖然不是大規模停電，但是小區域的停電還是不斷，我們的中小企業、微型產業，不管是服務業也好，或是一般民生用電也好，關心的就是我剛剛講的停電，如果是無預警停電的話，損失誰在承擔？是民眾在承擔，是產業在承擔，是業者在承擔，而這些成本，我們不知道該怎麼計算。"],["郭部長智輝：有些事情我們必須要再跟地方政府強化溝通，有一些……"],["何委員欣純：跟地方政府強化溝通什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：高壓轉到中低壓的部分，必須要設變壓站，但是，那個變壓站如果不讓我們設的話，它那個地方就是紅區了。"],["何委員欣純：這個不是跟地方政府溝通，這是要跟在地居民溝通，而且要讓居民恢復對台電的信心，以及認識穩定供電的重要性，還有這個變電設施不會對居民的健康造成影響。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，有，我們現在有一個案子在臺北市正在進行，過去在柯市長的時候，8年都不允許，但是現在上來了，在我們台電同仁的努力之下，現在臺北市政府撥給我們設置變電站，所以這是一個非常大的改變。"],["何委員欣純：這個我會建議經濟部跟環境部、衛生福利部要跨部會的去合作，合作什麼？第一個，盤點過去設計規劃的預定地，因為有的已經是20年前的規劃，不是現在的規劃，所以要重新去檢討，這是第一個。第二個，我們應該就我剛剛所提醒的，就是對地方政府的溝通、對當地居民的溝通，居民擔心的是什麼？是對環境的影響、對健康的影響，所以政府有責任去跟地方溝通，這也不是只有台電的問題。院長，在這一方面，我們如果要真正儘快的、有效率的推動改善電網，那剛剛部長講有一些關鍵的民生基礎設施，這個要怎麼去設置，突破現在的盲點，這個不是我們應該要積極做的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們持續在進行，我們一直都在進行這一方面，事實上，現在我們同仁努力改善了很多，如果我們調資料來看，在過去幾年到現在我們真的是改善非常多。"],["何委員欣純：但是我剛剛講的跟衛生福利部、環境部共同合作，目前是沒有看到的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個是一個非常好的意見。"],["何委員欣純：彭部長，你同意嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：同意。"],["何委員欣純：對環境的影響、對健康的影響到底能不能讓民眾、居民放心來支持，我覺得這個很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：所以我在最後的最後才會跟你講，電網韌性有沒有真正到位的裁判是誰？裁判是民眾，就是人民嘛！大家對台電有沒有信心，大家對我們政府的穩定供電有沒有信心，供電相關的設施、設備會不會對大家的生活造成影響，這些都是我們政府要去積極溝通跟面對的，因為民眾是裁判。院長，一般民眾最關心的是什麼？就是無預警停電的次數，在我們投資了這麼多來讓電網韌性能夠逐步到位之後，無預警停電的次數可不可以減少？第二個，無預警停電的範圍可不可以縮小？在不幸遇到停電的時候，復電的時間能不能縮短？而且最重要的是什麼？就是可不可以不要無預警的停電，這個才是重點啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們跟台電說過，無論任何原因的停止供電，都是台電應該要深刻檢討的，所以不僅是在進行有停電必要的工程時需要預告，而且要告訴大家何時復電，如果是這種臨時的跳電，也要在第一時間告訴大家恢復電力的時間是在什麼時候，讓大家心裡有準備。"],["何委員欣純：最好是不要有無預警的跳電或停電，這是最重要的。"],["卓院長榮泰：無預警的停電應該是不可以的，如果跳電的話，我們要找出原因。"],["主席：好，謝謝何欣純委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，我們下午2時30分繼續進行質詢。","現在休息，謝謝。","休息（12時12分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34decf5df1ecfff53c6e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63e294d796a60933aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:40:56 - 11:57:01","影片長度":"00:16:05","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T11:40:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T11:57:01+08:00","duration":965,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.457218750000003,"end":27.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.96596875,"end":38.556593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.31596875,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.42971875,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.884718750000005,"end":53.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.67659375,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.570968750000006,"end":65.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.50159375,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.23534375,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.55034375000001,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.60471875,"end":83.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.88721875,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.38034375000001,"end":87.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.11846875,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.29971875000001,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.32909375,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.64971875,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.39534375000001,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.67784375000001,"end":101.29784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.66909375,"end":103.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.33534375,"end":108.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.89159375000001,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.64659375000001,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.61221875000001,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.79346875,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.09596875000001,"end":126.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.66096875000001,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.53409375,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.75284375,"end":137.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.57909375,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.62534375,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.73034375,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.06784375,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.04971875,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.38721875000002,"end":153.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.64409375,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.72784375,"end":159.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.52909375000002,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.99721875,"end":163.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.52846875,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.48096875000002,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.18096875,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.49721875,"end":179.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.49221875,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.87596875,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.25971875000002,"end":184.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.84596875000003,"end":186.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.32221875000002,"end":191.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.20346875,"end":193.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.02596875,"end":201.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.05846875,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.60659375,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.70659375000002,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.35159375,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.29221875000002,"end":221.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.78534375,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.69971875000002,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.61909375000002,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.72034375,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.06971875000002,"end":240.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.41534375,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.59659375,"end":245.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.66346875000002,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.85721875000002,"end":248.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.05971875,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.42659375000002,"end":255.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.26096875,"end":256.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.64471875000004,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.95221875000004,"end":261.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.23909375,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.55534375,"end":268.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.52909375,"end":269.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.94659375000003,"end":279.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.20659375,"end":285.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.21409375,"end":288.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.55971875,"end":291.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.29346875000005,"end":293.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.82471875000005,"end":295.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.57971875000004,"end":298.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.43596875000003,"end":298.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.52846875,"end":302.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.38034375,"end":306.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.95346875,"end":311.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.38721875000005,"end":314.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.93534375,"end":321.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.16221875,"end":321.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.00596875,"end":322.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.73159375,"end":327.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.36784375,"end":330.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.57846875,"end":333.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.36284375,"end":337.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.45909375,"end":339.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.21846875,"end":343.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.12909375000004,"end":365.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.03284375000004,"end":367.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.04096875000005,"end":368.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.45846875,"end":372.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.52971875000003,"end":377.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.77784375000005,"end":379.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.88721875000005,"end":384.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.94971875000005,"end":391.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.86846875000003,"end":396.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.25159375000004,"end":406.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.39346875,"end":408.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.22034375000004,"end":408.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.91221875,"end":412.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.06346875,"end":415.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.08409375,"end":420.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.87659375000004,"end":421.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.31534375,"end":422.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.45034375,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.24346875000003,"end":424.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.46221875000003,"end":430.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.96784375000004,"end":436.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.53221875,"end":440.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.63721875000005,"end":441.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.54409375,"end":449.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.98596875000004,"end":453.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.68159375000005,"end":466.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.19846875,"end":470.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.69159375000004,"end":472.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.86846875000003,"end":490.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.73909375000005,"end":493.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.24096875000004,"end":502.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.97346875000005,"end":515.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.40784375000004,"end":505.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.02784375000005,"end":506.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.98409375,"end":518.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.17784375,"end":518.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.1397187499999,"end":526.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.95284375,"end":534.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.7703437499999,"end":536.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.8247187500001,"end":536.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.9765937500001,"end":543.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.6684687500001,"end":538.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.23721875,"end":552.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.2709687500001,"end":544.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.07534375,"end":554.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.8303437500001,"end":556.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.01596875,"end":555.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.1084687499999,"end":563.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.36534375,"end":575.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.75159375,"end":574.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.32096875,"end":579.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.4340937500001,"end":581.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.91909375,"end":583.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.16346875,"end":586.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.65659375,"end":589.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.7065937500001,"end":595.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.8703437500001,"end":599.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.0890937500001,"end":605.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.55659375,"end":611.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.5009687500001,"end":611.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.27721875,"end":612.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.57659375,"end":630.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.27409375,"end":631.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.67909375,"end":634.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.8684687500001,"end":645.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.88784375,"end":652.4522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.5365937500001,"end":661.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.1047187500001,"end":668.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.97284375,"end":671.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.6897187500001,"end":686.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.26534375,"end":690.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.5053437500001,"end":693.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.6272187500001,"end":697.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.76159375,"end":714.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.22721875,"end":740.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.3203437500001,"end":740.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.36659375,"end":748.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.80846875,"end":750.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.93471875,"end":755.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":754.9340937500001,"end":761.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.03096875,"end":757.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.7978437500001,"end":764.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.99159375,"end":769.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.7165937500001,"end":775.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.97721875,"end":779.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.5334687500001,"end":786.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.79409375,"end":795.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.90659375,"end":807.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.9722187500001,"end":808.8328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":809.32221875,"end":810.0984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.2122187500001,"end":811.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.3134687500001,"end":811.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.4272187500001,"end":814.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.1103437500001,"end":816.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.86971875,"end":817.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":816.9834687500002,"end":829.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":830.07846875,"end":834.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.2422187500001,"end":840.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":840.96284375,"end":841.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.80659375,"end":849.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.0928437500002,"end":846.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":846.44721875,"end":846.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.4640937500001,"end":846.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.3959687500001,"end":855.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.09971875,"end":864.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":861.2803437500002,"end":869.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":870.9665937500001,"end":874.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.32096875,"end":872.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.6540937500001,"end":875.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":875.55659375,"end":881.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":877.5647187500001,"end":881.9522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.8003437500001,"end":884.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":884.7197187500001,"end":885.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":885.79971875,"end":887.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":887.45346875,"end":891.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":891.1997187500001,"end":891.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":892.1953437500001,"end":893.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":894.37221875,"end":894.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":895.4522187500002,"end":897.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.30409375,"end":912.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":913.3059687500001,"end":915.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":915.87096875,"end":917.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":918.25034375,"end":918.9422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":919.7690937500001,"end":920.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":920.0390937500001,"end":928.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":920.24159375,"end":921.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.9153437500001,"end":933.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.8090937500001,"end":936.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":936.71159375,"end":940.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":940.37346875,"end":940.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":957.8390937500001,"end":958.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":959.1553437500002,"end":963.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":964.01534375,"end":964.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":23.602,"end":39.661,"text":"謝謝主席本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢徐文豪院長好"},{"start":40.495,"end":52.829,"text":"院長您今天來報告能源配比以及電價政策這個是向全國人民報告是全國人民其實就是行政院的頭家頭家您認同吧是"},{"start":54.638,"end":77.396,"text":"那這個全國人民沒有辦法這個全部來聆聽所以我們有了代議制那立法委員就是最高的民意代表那代表國人來聆聽那今天您的這個這份報告第一個本席覺得很奇怪這個電子檔一定要您報告完之後行政院團隊才能傳給我們各個辦公室"},{"start":78.578,"end":96.786,"text":"可能是口頭報告的部分那這個是印在各位桌上都有的對對對那好像感覺是一樣口頭報告比較簡化一點那這個報告呢也是今天早上才拿到這有一點慢但是沒關係本席今天看了一下"},{"start":98.444,"end":123.156,"text":"我們院長的報告在這個整個報告裡面我們一般在企業也是常常會有present我想院長也知道您覺得如果您的這份報告如果是我們的大企業家像郭台銘董事長他看了您的這份報告你覺得他給你打幾分"},{"start":124.804,"end":148.873,"text":"這個報告是能源配比的跟專電價政策在電價裡面比較談到多一些數據在能源配比上面除了發電量之外對我們的財務狀況比較少觸及您知道這邊裡面避重就輕不是避重就輕因為我們在所有的企業剛剛我聽到您跟劉許廷委員在這個"},{"start":150.506,"end":179.701,"text":"答詢的時候有講用企業家的精神我不相信有任何一個老闆他聽到這個任何的報告裡面呢一般認為時間效益成本這三個一定要觸及那現在環境永續又是所有面向要考慮的那我看到您的今天這份報告時間有提到我們到哪一年要做到什麼到哪一年要做到什麼"},{"start":180.603,"end":203.081,"text":"校議提到部分必重就輕成本完全沒提包括您提到我們的這個能源配比到今年2024這個燃煤多少燃氣多少好特別強調再生能源達到10.5%風力光電多少但是您沒有告訴國人"},{"start":204.707,"end":216.828,"text":"我們過去到底花了多少民眾的民脂民膏納稅錢我們到底花了多少錢得到些許些許的提升缺乏"},{"start":219.566,"end":244.444,"text":"這個財務報告也就是說成本你沒有告知比較粗險的算法就是我們在後面有提到在電價政策裡面有提到預估2024的電價成本每度是3.95你那個電價成本已經是後面了但是你到底投入了多少首先所以本席特別在這裡再講第二點就是說您上任的時候也特別提到我們的行政院團隊是"},{"start":245.714,"end":268.875,"text":"AI行動對不對是智慧團隊嗎那如果要進入AI的時代我們知道今年年底開始很多手機就進入AI手機這個notebook也進入AI的筆電那您知道進入AI時代它的用電跟我們沒有進入AI時代差多少嗎您知道嗎"},{"start":270.08,"end":298.481,"text":"我這個在現在到2030年之前我們所需要的用電量裡面的分析台電已經經過一次再一次把需要用電量算出來他認為說需要的用電量需要到720萬千瓦可是我們可能會有900萬千瓦的供電量所以認為到2030年之前這個供電量是安全而無虞的2030年但是今年年底就進入AI時代了算出來了"},{"start":299.727,"end":325.539,"text":"那個算出來的本席在這邊跟您講如果你現在伺服器你轉成AI伺服器用電量馬上增加1.6倍來不來得及再來我們民間你應該知道現在一般民眾常常上網Google我相信這個院長你也有時候對什麼事情你也會去Google一下嘛對不對那用Google查詢跟ChatGPD這種AI的這種查詢呢"},{"start":328.413,"end":328.654,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":338.51,"end":366.702,"text":"我們台電我們的行政院團隊我們的很多的預估不要到出了問題才又一堆的托詞尤其現在你一直說用電夠但是其實民間常常反應好像常常這個電量不夠他們常常跳電很多中小企業有反應我不知道院長您知道嗎他因為跳電他很多機器燒掉那些都他自己吸收啊然後他又不敢講"},{"start":369.525,"end":376.474,"text":"接著本席就要就這次我們提的這個能源配比還有電價政策首先來"},{"start":379.971,"end":403.262,"text":"蔡總統上任2016後﹐大力發展離岸風電﹐宣布成立風電國家隊﹐喊出1.2兆產值﹐兩萬個工作機會﹐當時政府指示臺電還籌組了離岸風電國家隊﹐當初很高調﹐也寄予厚望的政策﹐請問到現在有多少案子﹐已經聯網發電﹐從受電回收投資的﹐"},{"start":407.898,"end":429.683,"text":"請檢答李彥鋒我們到現在總共的發電量2024年為止已經有2.7GW但到2026我們還會倍增到2028我們還要更增加我們逐年都有這個步驟對好您手上有資料本席也有但這個整個是進度落後的跟當初的預期"},{"start":431.024,"end":449.002,"text":"所以這個在時間效益成本來說我們的效益是一直落後的還有我們當初有很多投入的很多案子現在能夠真正連網發電大部分全部要在2024年今年都要完成的都沒有"},{"start":450.026,"end":450.066,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":467.276,"end":489.213,"text":"是報告委員我們都清楚這個凡事起頭難所以他的第一階段第二階段已經到現在已經進行到第三階段的三之一三之二這已經進到一個在技術上大家是可以掌控的但是過去所累積下來的問題我們現在要逐步來解決包括委員所提的國產化問題那這個我們跟部長跟部裡面討論過好幾次"},{"start":490.974,"end":518.53,"text":"三十一、三十二、三十三現在究竟要國產化還是市場化部長不要講你的我現在就先問你接下來的政策是國產化還是市場化重點的答覆就是在第三階段的三十一三十一我們不變國產化不變三十二原則上也不變但是如果真的其中出現了這個工期、品質等等有出現問題我們可以專案來討論但三十三我們主要的功能是在"},{"start":519.19,"end":542.623,"text":"培植我們的國內工程團隊能夠有國際競爭力希望他們能夠向海外發展所以33我們現在朝這個方向在進行所以聽起來3之3其開放就是國產化政策即將到中的意思嗎?報告委員我們是要不要講太長我時間不多我的意思就是說國產化如果只是看國內的市場就太小"},{"start":543.782,"end":563.115,"text":"本席了解那本席請教那些過去我們國內投入數十億甚至百億的廠商他們可以承受這樣的衝擊嗎他們沒有問題啊他必須要有競爭力啊所以等於這個政策反覆我們行政團隊就認為說沒有問題向上走的讓國內的國廠化的廠商具有國際競爭力這個上一次啊"},{"start":571.36,"end":574.562,"text":"政府的立場非常感謝參與國產化的這些業者沒有他們的參與我們前兩個階段也不可能這樣的展"},{"start":590.29,"end":590.33,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":612.954,"end":629.025,"text":"一既然提到離岸風電我們投入了大量的不管國家隊或是民間的資源結果呢我們目前到今年為止包含這個院長的報告裡面我們整個離岸風電佔整個供電量就是1.83%"},{"start":631.746,"end":632.266,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":652.794,"end":670.921,"text":"本席在這裡也要特別講剛剛有蠻多的委員好像特別講說韓國最近漲價當然是民進黨的委員比較多拿韓國漲價所以說呢這個何能是漲價原因這個是本席在這裡也要特別說明"},{"start":672.382,"end":684.54,"text":"韓國多份的官方報告指出長價的原因是因為國際能源價格導致其實本席在手上也看到我們從民國70年代用核電40%到50%"},{"start":687.364,"end":714.523,"text":"那80年代還有20%到30%90年代也還有十幾20%到100年以來呢就整個從17%降到5%所以這也是我們的電價為什麼一直漲一直漲過去民眾都很自豪政府也會說我們的電價是這個世界在世界來說我們是比較廉價的就是比較便宜的所以"},{"start":715.283,"end":739.682,"text":"本席在這裡要特別的請院長跟部長我們其實真的是可以考慮在安全的情況下可以考慮本席也聽到院長也回答說那你要問一問新北市民那本席也不禁問其實你火力發電你有問過中部地區的民眾嗎中部地區對火力發電造成的空氣污染他們是"},{"start":740.442,"end":741.983,"text":"本院內政委員會報告。（10月29日（。"},{"start":763.207,"end":775.776,"text":"應該4加2變成燃氣機組保留6部是不會承受常備性的發電的他只有6部的燃氣機組這樣就會降低他的公屋這是我們對台中市民心中存滿的感激跟歉意的做法"},{"start":776.038,"end":792.643,"text":"你不能只存滿感激跟建議有好的能源政策第一個不會用民脂民膏浪費那麼多的資源得到那麼少的效益尤其像目前我們政府的綠電其實很多剛剛也講到很多廠商他需要綠電"},{"start":794.103,"end":799.987,"text":"政府在大力推動再生能源的時候有沒有想過未來廢棄的離岸風機要如何處置?廢棄的離岸風機不會只有台灣有"},{"start":816.188,"end":832.872,"text":"全球都會有啦?不是,全球都會有,但是我們就要想那怎麼處置嘛?本席說未來,您可能還不知道,未來我們會一支葉片,它的重量就36噸,它的長度相當於高鐵3.26節的車廂,"},{"start":835.313,"end":844.828,"text":"在未來我們有900隻葉片要破碎掩埋他沒有辦法處理那面對這麼多900片的葉片3萬2400噸"},{"start":850.436,"end":869.431,"text":"都要變成臺灣的垃圾山同時同時還有光電光電的廢太陽能光電板我不知道我們政府有沒有任何的政策在未來有十萬光盾我們工研院已經發展出來可以處理光電的技術"},{"start":870.788,"end":871.008,"text":"主席"},{"start":896.146,"end":922.02,"text":"彈能源配比彈電價你你要整體看你的時間你你你這個到底我們的這種綠能或再生能源你要用多久的時間多少的成本你得到多少的效益時間效益成本加上環境永續那你不能選最不好的方案啊你要選最好的方案好那包圍那個最後最後最後本席"},{"start":923.24,"end":938.096,"text":"沒有時間了但是有關電價我們這個電價巨額虧損的政治責任我們現在沒有時間來爭論但是全民都知道填補虧損就只有政府撥補跟漲價兩個方案"},{"start":957.824,"end":964.991,"text":"響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":629,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時41分）謝謝主席，本席有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長好。院長，您今天來報告能源配比以及電價政策，這個是向全國人民報告，全國人民其實就是行政院的頭家，您認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：全國人民沒有辦法全部來聆聽，所以我們有了代議制，而立法委員就是最高的民意代表，代表國人來聆聽。今天您的這份報告，第一個，本席覺得很奇怪，電子檔一定要您報告完之後，行政院團隊才能傳給我們各個辦公室……"],["卓院長榮泰：可能是口頭報告的部分啦！這個紙本印了在各位桌上都有的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，對，對，但感覺好像是一樣喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：口頭報告比較簡化一點。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個報告也是今天早上才拿到，這有一點慢。但是沒關係，本席今天看了一下，院長在整個報告裡面，我們一般在企業也是常常會有present，我想院長也知道，您覺得您的這份報告，如果是我們的大企業家像郭台銘董事長，他看了您的這份報告，你覺得他會給你打幾分？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個報告是能源配比跟電價政策，在電價裡面談到比較多一些數據；在能源配比上面，除了發電量之外，對我們的財務狀況比較少觸及。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您知道這裡面避重就輕……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是避重就輕，是報告的主體……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我們在所有的企業，剛剛我聽到您跟牛煦庭委員在答詢的時候有講用企業家的精神，我不相信有任何一個老闆聽到的報告……一般認為，時間、效益、成本這三個一定要觸及，現在環境永續又是所有面向要考慮的。我看到您今天的這份報告，時間有提到我們到哪一年要做到什麼，效益提到部分，但避重就輕，成本完全沒提！包括您提到我們的能源配比，到今年2024燃煤多少、燃氣多少，特別強調再生能源達到10.5%，還有風力光電多少，但是您沒有告訴國人，我們過去到底花了多少民脂民膏、納稅錢，我們到底花了多少錢得到些許、些許的提升？缺乏財務報告，也就是成本您沒有告知……"],["卓院長榮泰：比較粗淺的算法，我們後面在電價政策裡面有提到，預估2024的電價成本每度是3.95元。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你那個電價成本已經是後面了，但是你到底投入了多少？本席特別在這裡再講第二點，您上任的時候也特別提到行政院團隊是AI行動，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：智慧團隊嘛，如果要進入AI的時代，我們知道今年年底開始，很多手機就進入AI手機，notebook（筆電）也進入AI，您知道進入AI時代的用電跟沒有進入AI時代差多少嗎？您知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在到2030年之間，從我們所需要的用電量來做分析，台電已經一次、再一次把需要的用電量算出來，他們認為需要的用電量為720萬瓩，而我們可能會有900萬瓩的供電量，所以認為在2030年之前的供電量是安全無虞的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：2030年，但是今年年底就進入AI時代了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：有算出來了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：關於那個算出來的，本席在這邊跟您講，如果現在的伺服器轉成AI伺服器，用電量馬上增加1.6倍，來不來得及？再來，你應該知道，現在民間的一般民眾常常上網google，我相信院長有時候查什麼事情也會google一下，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：經常。"],["徐委員欣瑩：用Google查詢跟ChatGPT這種AI查詢，差了10倍的用電量，所以本席在前面先提醒，也用了我5分鐘了，針對行政院團隊很多的預估，不要到出了問題才又一堆托詞，尤其現在你們一直說用電夠，但是其實民間好像常常反映電量不夠，常常跳電，有很多中小企業反映，我不知道院長您知道嗎？因為跳電，他們有很多機器燒掉，那些都要自己吸收啊！然後他們又不敢講。","本席接著要就這次你們提的能源配比還有電價政策來就教院長，蔡總統2016年上任之後，大力發展離岸風電，宣布成立風電國家隊，喊出1.2兆產值，2萬個工作機會，當時政府指示台電籌組離岸風電國家隊，當初很高調，也寄予厚望的政策，請問到現在有多少案子已經連網發電，從售電回收投資的？請簡答。"],["卓院長榮泰：離岸風電到現在總共的發電量，到2024年為止已經有2.7GW，到2026年還會倍增，2028年還要增加，我們逐年都有這個步驟。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，您手上有資料，本席也有。這跟當初預期進度相比是落後的，在時間效益成本來說，效益是一直落後的；還有當初有很多投入的案子，現在能夠真正連網發電的，要在2024（今）年完成的，大部分都沒有完成，進度不到50%，為什麼還有很多當初投入的案子沒有辦法真正進入售電階段，是不是因為離岸風電國產化的政策？是因為這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們都清楚凡事起頭難，所以第一階段、第二階段，到現在已經進行到第三階段的3-1、3-2，已經進到技術上可以掌控的，但過去累積下來的問題，我們現在要逐步解決，包括委員所提的國產化問題，我們跟部長、部裡面討論過好幾次，3-1、3-2、3-3如何……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在究竟要國產化還是市場化？部長先不要講你的，我現在就問你們接下來的政策是國產化還是市場化？"],["卓院長榮泰：重點答復就是在第三階段的3-1……"],["徐委員欣瑩：3-3？"],["卓院長榮泰：3-1不變，國產化不變。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，3-1。"],["卓院長榮泰：3-2原則上也不變，但是如果真的其中工期、品質等出現問題，我們可以專案來討論，但3-3主要的功能是在培植我們國內的工程團隊能夠有國際競爭力，希望他們能夠向海外發展，所以3-3現在朝這個方向在進行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：聽起來3-3期開放就是國產化政策即將告終的意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們是要……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不要講太長，我的時間不多。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思是，國產化如果只是看國內的市場，那就太小了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席了解。本席請教，過去那些國內投入數十億甚至百億的廠商，他們可以承受這樣的衝擊嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他們沒有問題啊！他們必須要有競爭力啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以等於是這個政策反覆……"],["郭部長智輝：不是反覆！我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們行政團隊認為沒有問題？"],["郭部長智輝：我們政策是向上走的，讓國內國產化的廠商具有國際競爭力，上一次台積電劉董事長回臺灣時也是這麼說的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席有聽到，部長你說溫室的花朵已經一段時間了……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們還是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：溫室的花朵能夠保護多久呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府的立場是非常感謝參與國產化的這些業者，沒有他們的參與，我們前兩個階段也不可能這樣的建載完成，或是陸續再開發，所以未來政府不會放著這些廠商沒有任何發展的去向，所以會照剛剛部長所說的往國外發展，培養他們的國際競爭力，政府可以從各種政策實質面來做協助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然！當然！本席也希望，就是能夠如院長跟部長所講的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，這是我們現在的作法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：既然提到離岸風電，我們投入了大量的，不管是國家隊或是民間的資源，結果我們到今年為止，包含院長的報告裡面也提到，我們離岸風電占整個供電量就是1.83%，但是投入了那麼那麼多的資源，那也是為什麼有這麼多的委員都建議說，為什麼不用核能？當然使用核能的前提是要安全，本席也認同，剛剛也講了，它是不是綠電，國際是有爭議的，但它是潔淨的能源。本席在這裡也要特別講，剛剛有滿多的委員，當然是民進黨委員比較多，他們提到韓國最近漲價了，所以說核能是漲價原因，本席在這裡也要特別說明，韓國多份的官方報告指出，漲價的原因是因為國際能源價格導致。據本席手上的資料顯示，我們從民國七○年代，使用核電的比例是40%到50%；八○年代還有20%到30%；九○年代也還有十幾二十%；到100年以來，整個從17%降到5%，這也是我們電價為什麼一直漲一直漲。","過去民眾都很自豪，政府也會說我們的電價就世界來說，我們是比較廉價的，也就是比較便宜的，所以本席在這裡要特別的請院長跟部長，我們其實真的是可以考慮，在安全的情況下可以考慮，本席聽到院長也回答說：你要問一問新北市民。本席也不禁要問，其實你的火力發電有問過中部地區的民眾嗎？中部地區對火力發電造成的空氣污染，他們是唉唉叫！而且他們急想擺脫卻擺脫不了，所以我們看到今天的報告，我們的燃煤占了40%，那你也要問一問中部地區的民眾他們做何感想啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，跟委員報告，我們臺中有最大的火力發電廠10部機組，我們現在會把其中的4部，應該是4加2變成燃氣機組，保留6部是不會做常備性的發電，它只有6部的燃氣機組，這樣就會降低它的空污，這是我們對臺中市民心中充滿了感激跟歉意的作法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不能只充滿感激跟歉意，有好的能源政策，第一個，不會用民脂民膏，浪費那麼多的資源，得到那麼少的效益，尤其像目前我們政府的綠電，剛剛也講到，很多廠商需要綠電，但它卻拿不到。","所以本席接著要說，剛剛講到了離岸風電，政府在大力推動再生能源的時候，有沒有想過未來廢棄的離岸風機要如何處置？請簡答，還沒想？"],["郭部長智輝：廢棄的離岸風機不會只有臺灣有啦！全球都會有啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：全球都會有，但是我們要想屆時該如何處置，本席要說的是，未來可能你還不知道，而一支葉片的重量有36噸；它的長度相當於高鐵3.26節車廂。未來我們有900支葉片要破碎掩埋，它沒有辦法處理，面對多達九百片的葉片、重3萬2,400噸，都會變成臺灣的垃圾山！同時還有光電，也就是廢太陽能光電板，我不知道我們政府有沒有任何的政策……"],["郭部長智輝：我們工研院已經有處理的技術了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：未來有十萬公噸……"],["郭部長智輝：工研院已經發展出可以處理光電板的技術。"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經發展了？可以運用了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有一些可以回收了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：開始運用了嗎？目前在所有文獻中都還沒看到……"],["郭部長智輝：因為現在還在運轉，所以沒有淘汰，還不到20年。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望能夠一起來為我們的環境永續好好思考，所以整體來說，本席今天主要是講：要談能源配比，談電價，就要整體的時間，到底綠能或再生能源要用多久的時間、多少的成本、得到多少的效益？時間、效益、成本，加上環境永續，所以不能選最不好的方案，要選最好的方案。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那是循環經濟……"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，本席沒有時間了！有關電價巨額虧損的政治責任，我們現在沒有時間爭論，但全民都知道，填補虧損就只有政府撥補跟漲價兩個方案，這兩個方案都是民眾的民脂民膏，所以漲價讓民眾很不得已，也很無奈；至於撥補也不能無限制撥補。我們希望行政院能源配比政策三思啊，慎思啊，拜託、拜託！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長、各位部會首長備詢。謝謝。","接下來請登記第9號何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f3472e7e141d768c2326e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63e0410b60c5f7a9dc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:24:55 - 11:40:52","影片長度":"00:15:57","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T11:24:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T11:40:52+08:00","duration":957,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.189093750000001,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.09971875,"end":19.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.11659375,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.42034375,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.23721875,"end":32.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.58284375,"end":37.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.94909375,"end":41.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.509718750000005,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.500343750000006,"end":49.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.166593750000004,"end":50.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.78659375,"end":53.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.63846875,"end":56.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.06846875,"end":57.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.11471875,"end":64.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.74659375,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.21909375,"end":65.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.54784375,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.37034375,"end":78.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.77534375,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.20971875000001,"end":71.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.33596875,"end":74.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.34784375000001,"end":79.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.63471875,"end":78.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.65159375,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.66846875,"end":79.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.78221875,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":79.79909375000001,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.07721875,"end":85.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.02596875,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.40096875,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":91.61159375000001,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":93.21471875,"end":95.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.41284375000001,"end":95.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.81346875000001,"end":98.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.59784375000001,"end":102.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":102.61409375000001,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":105.68534375,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.15784375000001,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.27596875,"end":107.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.35596875,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":108.55409375,"end":109.53284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.75221875000001,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":110.57909375000001,"end":114.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.59971875000001,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":119.03346875000001,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.58159375000001,"end":134.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.34471875000001,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.64846875,"end":125.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.14096875,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.88721875000002,"end":148.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.40534375000001,"end":143.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.28284375,"end":143.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.40034375000002,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.86409375000002,"end":150.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.49159375000002,"end":162.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.62159375000002,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.97534375,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.79346875000002,"end":170.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.49784375000002,"end":178.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.65284375000002,"end":180.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.97721875000002,"end":181.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":181.99409375000002,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.68596875,"end":182.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":182.75346875000002,"end":182.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.77034375000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":182.97284375,"end":184.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":185.03159375,"end":190.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.65534375000001,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.84909375,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":194.04284375,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.19034375,"end":195.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.94971875000002,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.41721875000002,"end":203.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.26909375000002,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.12471875,"end":211.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.30159375000002,"end":214.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.68096875,"end":218.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.10221875000002,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":220.14846875,"end":220.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":220.31721875000002,"end":221.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":221.97096875000003,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.03284375,"end":232.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.17596875,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.92596875,"end":241.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.59221875000003,"end":249.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.33784375000002,"end":252.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.85221875000002,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":252.90284375000002,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.67784375,"end":265.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":266.14971875000003,"end":272.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.74784375,"end":276.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.05534375,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":276.19034375,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":276.54471875,"end":278.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.58659375,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":278.97471875,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.02534375,"end":279.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":279.12659375000004,"end":279.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.24471875,"end":279.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":279.31221875,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.83096875,"end":282.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.82659375000003,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.11221875,"end":291.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.52971875000003,"end":297.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.55409375,"end":298.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.68471875,"end":299.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.15284375000005,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.89096875,"end":302.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.25784375,"end":305.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.32909375,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.61159375,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":307.62846875,"end":307.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.84784375000004,"end":307.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":307.96596875,"end":312.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.53096875,"end":318.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.54659375,"end":318.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.45784375,"end":323.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.91284375000004,"end":329.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.00471875,"end":333.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":333.88596875,"end":338.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.69534375,"end":339.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.37034375,"end":341.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":341.73284375000003,"end":342.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.32346875,"end":345.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":342.82971875000004,"end":343.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.79971875,"end":347.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.65596875,"end":349.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.50784375,"end":351.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.49471875,"end":356.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":354.00096875,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.84409375,"end":366.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.24784375,"end":382.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":367.70346875,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.97346875000005,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.23284375000003,"end":385.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.02534375000005,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.04534375000003,"end":394.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.26471875000004,"end":397.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.50471875000005,"end":401.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.53846875000005,"end":397.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.57221875000005,"end":397.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.75784375,"end":402.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.05659375000005,"end":407.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.61284375,"end":413.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.40596875,"end":408.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.46846875,"end":425.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.04034375000003,"end":426.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.10784375000003,"end":430.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.59284375000004,"end":427.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.25096875,"end":428.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.27596875,"end":431.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.42784375,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.59971875,"end":447.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.50534375,"end":447.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.29846875000004,"end":449.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.48409375000006,"end":452.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.36096875000004,"end":458.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.71034375000005,"end":461.17409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.68034375,"end":468.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.97034375000004,"end":476.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.03659375,"end":477.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.16721875,"end":479.70284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.83784375000005,"end":481.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.69409375000004,"end":483.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":484.61346875000004,"end":487.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":487.78596875000005,"end":489.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":490.11471875,"end":491.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":492.37596875,"end":496.61159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.91971875,"end":497.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.29909375000005,"end":500.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":500.71221875000003,"end":504.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":504.93096875000003,"end":510.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":510.44909375000003,"end":512.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":512.8115937499999,"end":515.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":516.1865937499999,"end":520.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.43909375,"end":524.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":525.0290937500001,"end":528.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.64034375,"end":530.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":531.59346875,"end":533.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":533.93909375,"end":538.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.98471875,"end":539.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":539.27159375,"end":545.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":539.28846875,"end":539.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":546.1059687500001,"end":546.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":547.20284375,"end":547.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.0803437500001,"end":553.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.8178437500001,"end":554.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":554.32409375,"end":567.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":568.0603437500001,"end":574.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.43909375,"end":580.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.1553437499999,"end":594.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.1615937500001,"end":601.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":601.4897187500001,"end":602.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":603.58221875,"end":606.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.53534375,"end":614.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.4328437500001,"end":638.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.66784375,"end":622.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.1272187500001,"end":626.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.49409375,"end":627.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.5303437499999,"end":640.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.09534375,"end":645.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.2803437499999,"end":650.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.63471875,"end":645.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.1865937499999,"end":654.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.86534375,"end":660.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":659.2865937500001,"end":676.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.5053437500001,"end":663.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.5559687500001,"end":663.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.0828437499999,"end":667.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.80409375,"end":670.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":677.0390937500001,"end":678.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":680.17784375,"end":688.3115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":688.4297187500001,"end":694.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":694.7240937500001,"end":695.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.80409375,"end":700.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":698.8247187500001,"end":700.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.25034375,"end":703.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":702.3515937500001,"end":702.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.22471875,"end":708.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":708.2747187500001,"end":708.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":709.33784375,"end":711.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.6709687500002,"end":713.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.07971875,"end":715.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.48034375,"end":722.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":719.9015937500001,"end":728.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.9509687500001,"end":732.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.3003437500001,"end":735.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":734.9709687500001,"end":738.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.8859687500001,"end":744.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.18034375,"end":749.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.1628437500001,"end":758.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":758.78159375,"end":774.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":774.28971875,"end":777.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":778.2553437500001,"end":789.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.03409375,"end":796.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":796.9697187500001,"end":797.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":798.04971875,"end":798.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":799.2478437500001,"end":804.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.6272187500001,"end":803.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":804.4115937500001,"end":808.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":808.5459687500002,"end":811.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":812.22471875,"end":813.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":813.6928437500001,"end":816.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":817.5403437500001,"end":818.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":818.68784375,"end":822.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":822.7378437500001,"end":823.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":824.05409375,"end":825.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":826.2309687500001,"end":827.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":827.5134687500001,"end":828.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":828.96471875,"end":830.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":830.6184687500001,"end":831.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":832.18784375,"end":833.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":834.60096875,"end":836.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.3684687500001,"end":840.4734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":839.91659375,"end":847.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":847.96596875,"end":848.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":848.97846875,"end":849.7547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":850.04159375,"end":852.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":853.0959687500001,"end":855.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":855.84659375,"end":857.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":857.66909375,"end":862.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":862.42784375,"end":864.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":864.03096875,"end":874.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":873.00846875,"end":881.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":881.1928437500001,"end":884.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.0278437500001,"end":887.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":886.93034375,"end":886.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":886.94721875,"end":890.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":890.30534375,"end":892.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.5078437500001,"end":890.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":892.7522187500001,"end":895.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":896.3972187500001,"end":897.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":897.89909375,"end":905.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":902.3203437500001,"end":903.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":904.63221875,"end":913.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":907.7878437500001,"end":909.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":913.52534375,"end":914.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":915.5503437500001,"end":917.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":917.84534375,"end":918.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":918.9084687500001,"end":924.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":926.0803437500001,"end":926.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":927.4640937500001,"end":927.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":927.95346875,"end":927.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":927.97034375,"end":929.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":929.64096875,"end":935.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":931.4465937500001,"end":932.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":932.9653437500001,"end":934.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":947.56221875,"end":953.1140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":953.70471875,"end":955.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":956.3034687500001,"end":956.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.226,"end":35.2,"text":"好,謝謝院長。有請行政院卓院長、經濟部郭部長。麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。院長早。院長好。院長辛苦了。院長第一個問題請教你,就是關於醫療機構,我們都動長。"},{"start":38.001,"end":59.014,"text":"那相關的醫事的機構也跟我有很多的陳情我也第一時間我也跟部長反映嘛針對其他的醫事機構目前電價電費動漲傾向進度部長您了解嗎還是院長部長現場報告委員齁這個醫事機構應一併納入電價動漲方案這個是確定什麼時候開始實施呢"},{"start":69.727,"end":83.058,"text":"應該這個院長已經有指示了,我們會馬上來處理,最近因為大家都待會在立法院這邊質詢,所以（幾個動作還是從有一個時間點（本來這個規劃當中經過電價審議委員會之後,我們是認為包括學校,包括醫院都應該由目的世界主管機關來做這個政策上的調整"},{"start":95.888,"end":116.256,"text":"那還是有一些其他的問題,比方說藥局,大的藥局、小的藥局它又有不同,大藥局跟社區藥局也有不同,那醫院診所跟一些的醫檢的診所也不一樣,醫檢所也不一樣,那這個部分是電價審議委員會如果下次還有開會的時間,我們是建議他能夠在場。所以他動長在下次電價審議委員會開會之後才作出決議才會動長嗎?"},{"start":122.386,"end":134.071,"text":"我希望部長能夠擴大宣傳到底哪些醫事機構是目前已經即刻動長有些是下一個階段下一個階段電價審議委員會之後才會動長我們在上個禮拜五得到院長的指示"},{"start":139.674,"end":140.495,"text":"那另外兩千億兩年一年一千億兩年兩千億由政府撥補台電對不對"},{"start":157.549,"end":180.036,"text":"主要這兩千億是用在哪裡?我們看一下目前的供電成本是3.95,民生住宅用電我們動長維持在每度2.77,對不對?大概政府吸收1.18,這吸收的經費是由明年由2024到2025各編例一千億來彌補民生住宅的動長缺口,這兩千億,他主要目標是這樣嗎?"},{"start":182.388,"end":193.578,"text":"從您的報告裡面是這樣寫喔補貼的補貼的撥補的這個預算經費不完全是這個部分還有一部分要針對韌性電網對這主要兩線是要針對這個動產的迷生住宅用電這個部分彌補這個缺口嘛"},{"start":204.335,"end":223.531,"text":"如果說這兩千億沒過兩千億的這個電價補貼預算沒有通過海淀該如何因應呢是不是會反映到民生住宅用電因為這兩千億是要減退這個民生住宅用電的缺口嘛因為動漲嘛這是說的是今年明年的這個各一千億"},{"start":224.392,"end":251.072,"text":"對啦!對啦!對!那8萬以前的以前年度的也有加1500億我是針對你的報告來提問啦!那這個國民黨的這個朱立倫主席說這2000億的這個撥補的預算他是堅決反對喔!我想國民黨團大概也不會支持啊!如果這種狀況之下這2000億你要看到的是要針對民生住宅用電動漲的時候的缺口!如果這2000億沒貴!沒有啦!"},{"start":253.195,"end":269.792,"text":"直接的說就是臺電的財務狀況跟我們現在所預估的又不一樣他可能會更加的問題那發問一下民生這個住宅用電的這個這電價呢那主要說波普的政策不能夠落實那臺電的財務狀況又持續的擴大"},{"start":272.796,"end":276.437,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。"},{"start":300.288,"end":304.569,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。"},{"start":324.616,"end":351.663,"text":"2033年距離現在大概是將近10年你們增加17.86GW這些機組有哪有幾部燃氣機組分布在哪些縣市那就是大潭、通宵、興達、台中跟大林跟協和主要是幾個現有的電廠去增加機組對那您說這個如果規劃上限有可能不會規劃上限需國人跟地方政府支持台電有哪些地方政府不支持"},{"start":353.67,"end":366.171,"text":"這你的報告裡面寫我當然希望希望能夠得到地方政府的支持跟配合我們在現有的電廠裡面去增加燃氣機組主要喬街就是低碳新型燃氣機組就快速洗停的特性"},{"start":367.281,"end":369.743,"text":"你會覺得為什麼到2033年沒有辦法如期建制呢?"},{"start":387.319,"end":399.009,"text":"這個可能我想臺電公司應該多跟這個地方政府還有這個地方的居民多溝通這個部分我們會責成這個臺電公司或者是外部的民營電廠也有可能"},{"start":403.814,"end":425.041,"text":"剛剛院長所說大部分都是這個目前的這個台電電廠嘛對不對主要主要你17.86GW大部分是由現有的電廠裡面去擴充的嘛我們現在比較擔心的問題就是剛才我想委員你所講的因為我們大部分會用這個低碳的這個天然氣所以這個呢我們還是要有一些接氣的這個"},{"start":426.702,"end":451.922,"text":"三階四階這些當然我們要全力去所以這個還要跟環境部還要跟這個地方政府要有一些程序上面的這個我想我們很樂觀很樂觀期待但是一定要全力以赴你說這條件如果能夠規劃上線就不會有缺電的問題喔對不對如果大家都支持我們台電然後支持我們的綠電"},{"start":453.524,"end":479.321,"text":"我想臺灣的高科技他要的就是這些綠電跟這個我們的電力那我順便請教您您說的核電的問題滿足核安解決核廢核廢能夠處理社會公視在我看起來是比較屬於抽象的標準跟前提要滿足三項前提有沒有比較科學的這個針對這三項數字這三項前提的這個條件是滿足核安、核廢處理、社會公視"},{"start":479.941,"end":483.023,"text":"三項現在比較難的而且我覺得最難的是社會的共識現在社會上"},{"start":492.438,"end":514.752,"text":"用核電或是不用核電幾乎是討論的空間是不多的所以我們現在兩條路一個就是對以後的新核能技術我們開放再來就是目前的核三廠的問題我們行政院必須依法行政明年的5月17號他就必須除役那現在核管法他就是這麼規定"},{"start":516.226,"end":533.403,"text":"那是不是有可能會變動我完全不知道因為我們現在是依法行政院長我的看法不只是社會共識它是高門檻核廢處理也是高門檻另外核安問題誰說了算這也是高門檻這三個高門檻變成超高門檻你要放在核電這門檻非常高"},{"start":533.973,"end":557.85,"text":"但是未來新的核能技術我們現在可能都還不知道會發展到什麼程度那各種的數據看起來2030年可能是一個非常關鍵的年度所以它是不是有長足的可以剛剛這些疑慮或這些保證得到一個發展我們現在也正在努力的在觀察當中好 下一個問題請教就我們如何加速這個綠電的轉型讓企業的採購環境能夠優化"},{"start":561.754,"end":566.79,"text":"當然這是一個協會所提出的建議我覺得這建議可以提供給政府做參考"},{"start":568.157,"end":571.939,"text":"三、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":595.572,"end":612.17,"text":"受限風險檢討PPA漁電回購機制政府長您是專家但是很多人都不了解到底政府的政策方向在哪裡另外,海洋光電獨立取得困難怎麼樣政府可以做一些的努力從中協助這四項議題"},{"start":615.168,"end":636.623,"text":"報告委員 我想我們這個分短期跟長期來看短期也就是2030年為止這個H100他們有規定大概在這個2030年他有一個第一個階段的這個目標那我們就是全力以赴就是2030年的時候我們讓台灣的綠電可以上升到30%以上那可以的話朝40%再努力2032年"},{"start":639.884,"end":653.729,"text":"長遠來講我們的真正的目標就是2050年的時候要進行檢探那所以我們現在目前就電力跟綠電這兩個命題來努力的話我們現在透過深度節能可以馬上"},{"start":655.169,"end":678.515,"text":"馬上在既有的電力設施之下我們可以增加這四項議題只是提供給經濟部做參考至於說怎麼樣去落實他們所提出的訴求我想這個對綠電的轉型很重要那可能在委員會我們可以討論剛剛你說提到深度接能那203億這個經費行政院好像還沒有明確的出處"},{"start":680.236,"end":681.998,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":702.661,"end":725.12,"text":"你那深度節能的部分我們編在那個中小微企業裡面的這個部分設備的太久換薪對 設備太久換薪的部分我們大概在那個我們有修改了一個那個什麼新創條例那個實質產業創新條例那我可能最近就會排因為有朝委嘛我就盡快排"},{"start":726.5,"end":743.509,"text":"我們真正的就是要把這個從國營的企業開始做起,然後來帶動建立一個模型﹖這個方向是正確的,我是擔心這203億沒有裁員﹖這個另外的,另外的部分,這個屬於這個企業自己自發的這樣的一個領域,203億那個是補助中小微的"},{"start":749.272,"end":777.366,"text":"但是我們有更大的計畫整個大概4年下來可能要花到上兆的預算但這個不在我們公務預算裡面好 謝謝那下一個問題請教就是地樂地樂不像風力它有時間限制地樂市發電的效率比較高台灣市有很好的條件地樂資源豐富但發展非常緩慢我覺得應該有好的誘因、好的政策"},{"start":778.326,"end":795.977,"text":"到底為什麼誘因不足要去了解高太陽開案的風險高的初期投資成本這部分可以學習土耳其跟印尼的經驗進步來諸得讓初期的成本能夠降低所以這部分我覺得我們有潛力但潛力沒有發揮這個很可惜很可惜"},{"start":799.962,"end":821.542,"text":"我提供這個議題給部長我們可能另外在委員會再來討論用電大戶條款這到底什麼時候會出爐本來是兩年之內要提出目前是5000千瓦以上是用電大戶現在2003年能源署就應該要提出檢討報告"},{"start":822.779,"end":847.227,"text":"到現在還是沒有那檢討報告什麼時候會出爐門檻的會不會提高這部分這博定率跟他們了解這會影響很大用年大戶的標準門檻這個我們還是會滾動式的去調整他必須要在依法要在2003年提出檢討報告兩年提出嘛那一直演一直演一直演"},{"start":848.001,"end":872.51,"text":"那你現在實施不出來,到底用電電大戶目前你們的方向是怎麼樣檢討報告是法令要兩年要檢討一次那你檢討報告什麼時候出爐這很重要門檻跟綠電的比例會不會調整這到底有方向嗎這個我想謝謝委員這個我們回去以後會針對您剛才所指示的這一個題目我們馬上去了解一下"},{"start":873.15,"end":894.276,"text":"今天能源署也在齁能源署也在我在找時間來討論因為這個很重要大家在問到底會不會出現會不會趕快出爐然後門檻會不會提升利率比例會不會調整如果有這個規定我們應該可以有這樣一個答案再生能源發展條例當中它一個條文是有規定到說這個用電契約容量達到剛剛委員寫到5000"},{"start":896.437,"end":923.916,"text":"五千千瓦以上的電力用戶他必須自己要有一些再生能源的發電設備、儲能設備或是購買一定的綠電就是門檻跟綠電比例會不會提高這我們另外再討論最後一個問題比較重要的是剛好部長也在CPTPP我是促進會的會長我CPTPP非常重要明年度是澳洲擔任人事主席對不對我們在明年通過進入CPTPP的可能性到達"},{"start":926.567,"end":934.795,"text":"這個應該是... 新批他有這個要...這個跟會員國之間要有單一的接觸而且他要遵守他的高標準..."},{"start":947.568,"end":956.971,"text":"響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時25分）謝謝院長，有請行政院卓院長、經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["邱委員志偉：院長早。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：院長辛苦了，第一個問題請教你，就是關於醫療機構我們都凍漲，相關的醫事機構也跟我有很多的陳情，我第一時間也跟部長反映，針對其他的醫事機構目前電費凍漲的進度，部長，您了解嗎？還是院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長先答。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，醫事機構應一併納入電價凍漲方案，這個是確定的。"],["邱委員志偉：什麼時候開始實施呢？"],["郭部長智輝：院長已經有指示了……"],["邱委員志偉：立即實施？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會馬上來處理，最近因為……"],["邱委員志偉：比照醫療機構？"],["郭部長智輝：大家都待在立法院質詢，所以有比較……"],["邱委員志偉：是即刻凍漲還是有一個時間點？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，本來在規劃當中，經過電價審議委員會之後，我們是認為包括學校、醫院都應該由目的事業主管機關來做政策上的調整，但還是有一些其他的問題，比方說藥局，大的藥局、小的藥局又有不同，大藥局跟社區藥局也有不同，醫院、診所跟一些醫檢所也不一樣，這個部分電價審議委員會如果下次還有開會的時間，我們是建議它能夠再……"],["邱委員志偉：所以它凍漲是在下次電價審議委員會開會之後作成決議才會凍漲嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前是有部分已經……像社區醫院、社區診所。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望部長能夠擴大宣傳，到底哪些醫事機構是目前已經即刻凍漲，有哪些是下一個階段，在下一次電價審議委員會之後才會凍漲，這可能要讓大家知道一下。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在上個禮拜五得到院長的指示，我們就趕快要跟電價審議委員會他們報告，然後把這個東西納入，所以就有一些程序上面的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：所以凍漲是大方向，也是政策，沒有問題？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好。另外，2,000億，一年1,000億，兩年2,000億，由政府撥補台電，對不對？主要這2,000億是用在哪裡？我們看一下目前的，供電成本是3.95元；民生住宅用電凍漲，維持在每度2.77元，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對，2.77元。"],["邱委員志偉：大概政府吸收1.18元，吸收的經費是由2024年到2025年各編列1,000億來彌補民生住宅的凍漲缺口，這2,000億的主要目標是這樣，你的報告裡面是這樣寫的。"],["卓院長榮泰：撥補的預算經費不完全是這個部分，還有一部分是要針對韌性電網。"],["邱委員志偉：院長，你的報告是這樣寫。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員志偉：主要這2,000億是要針對凍漲的民生住宅用電部分，彌補這個缺口嘛！如果這2,000億的電價補貼預算沒有通過，台電該如何因應呢？是不是會反映到民生住宅用電？因為主要這2,000億是要針對民生住宅用電的缺口，因為凍漲嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：這說的是今年、明年各1,000億。"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：包括以前年度的也有1,500億。"],["邱委員志偉：我是針對你的報告來提問，國民黨的朱立倫主席說這2,000億的撥補預算他是堅決反對，我想國民黨團大概也不會支持，如果在這種狀況之下，這2,000億是你要針對民生住宅用電凍漲的缺口，如果這2,000億沒過，要怎麼辦？是不是反映到民生住宅用電？"],["卓院長榮泰：直接地說，就是台電的財務狀況跟我們現在所預估的又不一樣，它可能會更加的有問題。"],["邱委員志偉：那會不會影響民生住宅用電的電價呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：主要是撥補的政策不能夠落實，而台電的財務狀況又持續擴大，將來要再做如何的調整，電價審議委員會就會有其考量。"],["邱委員志偉：擴大如果到不可逆啦！真的，如果擴大到不可逆可能就破產了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很不希望這樣子做。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！所以這2,000億你要讓社會大眾知道，這2,000億是針對凍漲所產生的成本缺口，如果這2,000億不過，民生用電可能會受到影響，如果民生用電沒有受到影響，那可能台電受到很大的衝擊，可能過了這個可逆點，它的財務狀況可能就沒有辦法再起死回生，搞不好就破產了，有可能耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在只有努力地希望相關的預算跟追加預算都能夠通過。"],["邱委員志偉：希望理性看待這個預算，這2,000億是為了民生住宅用電的缺口所去撥補的。另外，你的報告裡面針對橋接能源的規劃，2033年距離現在大概是將近10年，將累計淨增加17.86GW，這些機組有幾部燃氣機組？分布在哪些縣市？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是大潭、通霄、興達、臺中、大林跟協和，主要是這幾個。"],["邱委員志偉：就現有的電廠去增加機組嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員志偉：您說這個如果規劃上線，但也有可能不會規劃上線，這需要國人跟地方政府支持台電，有哪些地方政府不支持？在你的報告裡面有寫地方政府支持……"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然希望能夠得到地方政府的支持跟配合。"],["邱委員志偉：我們在現有的電廠裡面去增加燃氣機組，所謂的橋接就是低碳新型燃氣機組，就是快速起停的特性嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以在現有的電廠裡面來增設這個燃氣機組嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：地方政府應該也會樂觀其成，原本是燒煤炭，現在燒低碳的燃氣，應該是支持才對啊，為什麼你會覺得到2033年沒有辦法如期建置呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我想台電公司應該多跟地方政府還有地方的居民多溝通，這個部分我們會責成台電公司……"],["邱委員志偉：像我們的興達電廠，以前是燃煤……"],["郭部長智輝：或者是外部的民營電廠也有可能。"],["邱委員志偉：那麼剛剛院長所說的，大部分都是目前的台電電廠，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，主要。"],["邱委員志偉：17.86GW大部分是由現有的電廠裡面去擴充的嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在比較擔心的問題，我想就是剛才委員所講的，因為我們大部分會用低碳的天然氣，所以這個我們還是要有一些接氣的地方。"],["邱委員志偉：比如說三接、四接這些？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：當然，我們要全力去爭取地方政府的支持啊！"],["郭部長智輝：所以這個還要跟環境部和地方政府要有一些程序上面的過程。"],["邱委員志偉：我想我們很樂觀期待，但是一定要全力以赴啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你說這條線如果能夠規劃上線，就不會有缺電的問題，對不對？你們的報告是這樣寫的。"],["郭部長智輝：如果大家都支持我們台電，然後支持我們的綠電，我想臺灣的高科技要的就是這些綠電跟我們的電力。"],["邱委員志偉：我順便請教您，您說核電的問題，要滿足核安、解決核廢，核廢能夠處理及社會共識，在我看起來是比較屬於抽象的標準跟前提，要滿足這三項前提有沒有比較科學的，針對這三項前提的條件？只是滿足核安、核廢處理、社會共識？有比較科學的標準，比較標準的數字嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在這裡面，我講的這三項是現在比較難的，而且我覺得最難的是社會的共識，現在社會上對於用核電或是不用核電，幾乎討論的空間是不多的。"],["邱委員志偉：那這個前提永遠沒辦法達成嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員志偉：永遠沒辦法達成，就沒有辦法再發展核電。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在有兩條路，一個就是對以後的新核能技術，我們開放。再來就是目前的核三廠問題，行政院必須依法行政，明年5月17號它就必須除役，現在核管法就是這麼規定，是不是有可能會變動，我完全不知道，因為我們現在是依法行政。"],["邱委員志偉：院長，我的看法不只是社會共識是高門檻，核廢處理也是高門檻。另外，核安問題誰說了算，這也是高門檻，這三個高門檻變成超高門檻，你要發展核電，這門檻非常高。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是未來新的核能技術，我們現在可能都還不知道會發展到什麼程度。"],["邱委員志偉：就目前的……"],["卓院長榮泰：各種的數據看起來，2030年可能是一個非常關鍵的年度，所以它是不是有長足的……剛剛這些疑慮或這些保證得到一個發展，我們現在也正在努力地觀察當中。"],["邱委員志偉：好，下一個問題請教，我們如何加速綠電的轉型，讓企業的採購環境能夠優化？當然，這是一個協會所提出的建議，我覺得這個建議可以提供給政府做參考，怎麼樣針對電證分離制度來降低企業採購的門檻，我想這個部長您大概是專家，這個我國是不是有可能採行？這部分可能要花多點時間討論。","第二個問題，在供應鏈成本上漲，離岸風電國產化的政策是不是有微調的可能性？這些該怎麼調整，可能也需要經濟部去了解。另外，我們如何加強授信風險的擔保，並檢討PPA餘電的回購機制，我想這個部長您是專家，但是很多人都不了解到底政府的政策方向在哪裡；另外，太陽光電土地取得困難，政府可以做一些怎麼樣的努力從中協助？這四項議題。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想我們分短期跟長期來看，短期也就是2030年為止，RE100他們規定大概在2030年有第一個階段的目標，我們就是全力以赴，2030年的時候我們讓臺灣的綠電可以上升到30%以上，可以的話2032年朝40%再努力。那麼長遠來講，我們真正的目標就是2050年的時候要淨零減碳，所以我們目前就電力跟綠電這兩個命題來努力的話，現在透過深度節能可以馬上在既有的電力設施之下增加大概8%。"],["邱委員志偉：這四項議題只是提供給經濟部做參考，至於說怎麼樣去落實他們所提出的訴求，我想這個對綠電的轉型很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：可能在委員會我們可以討論。剛剛你所提到深度節能203億，這個經費行政院好像還沒有明確的出處，這203億的經費從哪裡來？針對獎勵誘因及民間資源投入，差不多要157億；產業用戶落實節電16億，大概已經有在新增了，我想請教一下……"],["郭部長智輝：這個是今年編的預算。"],["邱委員志偉：157億要編在哪裡？這個深度節能的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：我們編在中小微企業裡面的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：還有設備的汰舊換新。"],["郭部長智輝：對，設備汰舊換新的部分，我們有修改了一個新創條例……"],["卓院長榮泰：產業創新條例。"],["邱委員志偉：那我可能最近就會排，因為我是召委嘛，我就儘快排，讓這部分能夠及時銜接到法律面……"],["郭部長智輝：我們真正的就是要把這個從國營的企業開始做起，然後來帶動建立一個模型。"],["邱委員志偉：這個方向是正確的，我是擔心你這203億沒有財源。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是另外的部分，屬於企業自給自發的領域，203億是補助中小微的，但是我們有更大的計畫，整個4年下來可能大概要花到上兆的預算，但是這個不在我們的公務預算裡面。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。下一個問題請教地熱，地熱不像風力有時間限制，地熱發電的效率比較高，臺灣有很好的條件，地熱資源豐富，但發展非常緩慢，我覺得應該要有好的誘因、好的政策，要去瞭解到底為什麼誘因不足？高探勘的風險、高的初期投資成本，這部分可以學習土耳其跟印尼的經驗，政府來主導嘛！讓初期的成本能夠降低，所以這部分我覺得我們有潛力，但潛力沒有發揮，這個很可惜，很可惜啦！我提供這個議題給部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：我們可能另外在委員會再來討論。","那麼用電大戶條款，這到底什麼時候會出爐？本來是兩年之內要提出，目前是5,000瓩以上是用電大戶，對吧？2023年能源署就應該要提出檢討報告，到現在還是沒有，那檢討報告什麼時候會出爐？門檻會不會提高？這個部分部長了解嗎？這會影響很大耶！用電大戶的標準門檻。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們還是會滾動式的去調整。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，它依法必須要在2023年提出檢討報告，兩年提出嘛，一直延、一直延、一直延，你現在遲遲不出來，到底用電大戶目前你們的方向是怎麼樣？檢討報告是法令規定兩年要檢討一次，那你檢討報告什麼時候出爐？這很重要，門檻跟綠電的比例會不會調整，這到底有沒有方向？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我們回去以後會針對您剛才所指示的這個題目，馬上去了解一下，再跟委員做報告。"],["邱委員志偉：今天能源署也在，我再找時間來討論，因為這個很重要，大家都在問到底會不會趕快出爐，然後門檻會不會提升、綠電比例會不會調整。"],["郭部長智輝：如果有這個規定，我們應該可以有……"],["卓院長榮泰：就是在再生能源發展條例當中，它有一個條文是有規定到，用電契約容量達到剛剛委員有寫到5,000瓩以上的電力用戶，它自己必須要有一些再生能源的發電設備……"],["邱委員志偉：對，我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：儲能設備或是購買一定的綠電。"],["邱委員志偉：就是門檻跟綠電比例會不會提高，這個我們另外再討論。最後一個問題比較重要，剛好部長也在，我是CPTPP促進會的會長，CPTPP非常重要，明年度是澳洲擔任輪值主席，對不對？我們在明年通過、進入CPTPP的可能性大不大？"],["郭部長智輝：這個應該是外交部……"],["卓院長榮泰：CPTPP它跟會員國之間要有單一的接觸……"],["邱委員志偉：我們努力了很久。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且要遵守它的高標準、高規格……"],["邱委員志偉：有，有，我們都達成了，但是你評估……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以是在單一跟其他的會員國當中，還要做許多的努力。"],["邱委員志偉：明年通過、進入的機率大不大？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部也會來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：還要努力？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及經濟部部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第8號徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f342bf1809ae2a2543c6e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63e1053e709b707af575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:09:16 - 11:24:50","影片長度":"00:15:34","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T11:09:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T11:24:50+08:00","duration":934,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.805968750000002,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.324718750000002,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.187843750000003,"end":22.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.06534375,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.22971875,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.70159375,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.35471875,"end":70.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.57409375,"end":34.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.24784375,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.21284375,"end":79.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.53346875000001,"end":79.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.08596875,"end":83.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.64659375000001,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.68034375,"end":127.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.65659375000001,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.64721875,"end":164.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.20784375000002,"end":166.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.00909375,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.49409375000002,"end":194.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.22409375,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.20284375,"end":214.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.05221875,"end":216.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.98846875,"end":221.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.49846875,"end":278.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.69659375,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.89034375,"end":289.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.97721875,"end":299.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.91659375,"end":335.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.97846875000005,"end":340.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.04096875000005,"end":341.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.96909375,"end":343.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.47096875,"end":344.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.33534375000005,"end":357.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.29221875,"end":354.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.93284375,"end":361.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.79346875000005,"end":370.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.50159375000004,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.47971875,"end":375.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.98909375000005,"end":393.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.14096875,"end":376.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.09596875,"end":407.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.95471875000004,"end":435.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.23721875,"end":436.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.27096875,"end":435.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.16096875000005,"end":444.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.57784375000006,"end":455.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.72346875000005,"end":456.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.92159375000006,"end":467.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.73846875000004,"end":470.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.23596875000004,"end":470.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.59034375000005,"end":471.65346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.54784375,"end":472.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.96971875,"end":475.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.39971875000003,"end":479.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.12909375000004,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.25096875,"end":482.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.06096875000003,"end":487.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.98846875000004,"end":489.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.01346875,"end":496.54409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.24471875,"end":517.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.89096875,"end":518.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.2453437500001,"end":529.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.83846875,"end":535.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.74034375,"end":549.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.97034375,"end":550.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.6240937499999,"end":551.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.65784375,"end":552.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.7547187499999,"end":553.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.2734687500001,"end":555.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.89346875,"end":559.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.11221875,"end":560.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.24284375,"end":572.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.86971875,"end":578.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.3247187500001,"end":594.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.53721875,"end":599.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.0515937499999,"end":597.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.78534375,"end":603.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.73409375,"end":607.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.07096875,"end":612.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.9734687499999,"end":630.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.2409687500001,"end":631.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.9028437500001,"end":631.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.3078437500001,"end":631.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.6453437499999,"end":633.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.40034375,"end":634.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.3115937499999,"end":635.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.1003437500001,"end":637.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.7878437500001,"end":638.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.2222187500001,"end":641.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.3484687499999,"end":653.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.29159375,"end":656.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.97471875,"end":694.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.0322187500001,"end":704.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.98409375,"end":705.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.7265937500001,"end":707.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.05534375,"end":709.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.99596875,"end":713.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.6240937500002,"end":717.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.4128437500001,"end":717.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.1340937500001,"end":718.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.46721875,"end":721.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.24284375,"end":724.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.0359687499999,"end":724.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.05284375,"end":724.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.3059687500001,"end":733.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.0147187500002,"end":725.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.5703437500001,"end":736.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.55721875,"end":740.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.40471875,"end":740.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.97846875,"end":758.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.0178437500001,"end":780.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.9553437500001,"end":782.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.2378437500001,"end":783.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.55409375,"end":785.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.66346875,"end":787.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.94159375,"end":789.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":789.30846875,"end":790.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.57409375,"end":792.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.24471875,"end":792.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":792.43034375,"end":793.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.96596875,"end":794.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.92784375,"end":795.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.4678437500002,"end":805.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.18346875,"end":838.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":839.2922187500001,"end":842.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":843.5447187500001,"end":845.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.40096875,"end":846.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":846.0928437500002,"end":848.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.94471875,"end":850.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":849.80534375,"end":853.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":854.04096875,"end":855.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":855.9140937500001,"end":857.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":858.0234687500001,"end":862.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":862.9678437500002,"end":865.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":866.35971875,"end":871.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.4265937500002,"end":880.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":871.59096875,"end":871.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.3953437500002,"end":886.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":881.73284375,"end":882.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.4584687500001,"end":882.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.4922187500001,"end":886.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":887.21721875,"end":888.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.9722187500001,"end":895.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.48596875,"end":900.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.9197187500001,"end":911.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":911.4834687500002,"end":918.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":919.24596875,"end":920.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":920.8659687500001,"end":922.4522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":923.2959687500002,"end":924.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":928.3584687500002,"end":931.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":934.8047187500001,"end":934.9734687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.355,"end":12.338,"text":"謝謝主席,左院長有請。麻煩請左院長備詢。劉委員好。院長早安。"},{"start":24.918,"end":43.327,"text":"這個一個好的政策通常應該要具備有一些的要件那今天我們討論是能源政策跟電價政策我想我們要先從要件開始今天的這個詢答所以本席這個才疏學淺提出四項要件我們跟院長做一下討論本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件第一"},{"start":45.407,"end":69.674,"text":"發電、穩定供電一定是必要的院長應該不會反對這個事。（二任何的政策不管是能源或其他都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久我想院長應該不會反對這個事。（三從民主的角度問責的機制是很重要的任何一個政策不管是行程的階段執行的階段檢討的階段都應該廣納民意讓更多人來參與來問責我想這是重要的最後這個所有的政策我們"},{"start":70.394,"end":99.455,"text":"跟全世界畢竟不能脫鉤所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要這四項要件院長是否同意還是你要補充一個好的能源政策如果能夠把這個都很合理的做規劃那就是看執行的問題了剩下執行的問題對不對好那我們今天上一次總質詢的時候我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論那今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長來做對話我很遺憾的是過去這一段時間民進黨政府的能源政策我認為這四項要件他一向都不符合"},{"start":100.055,"end":126.598,"text":"為什麼這樣說呢?我們一項項來講第一穩定的供電我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題我跟你談穩不穩的問題2017年815大停電衝擊全台2021年513、517大停電衝擊全台到了2022年3月3日大停電衝擊全台四次超過百萬戶影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內我要提醒院長的是再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風"},{"start":127.759,"end":149.027,"text":"在往前追溯在上一次有這麼大規模的停電1999年九二一大地震這就是供電不穩那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話小規模也是2024年一到六月各大小型跳電的次數3553件比去年同期多了兩成我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災"},{"start":150.047,"end":166.041,"text":"這些都代表供電不穩定這第一個要件沒有達標第二有關合理的財務規劃待會我們來進行深入討論但是喔這個高昂的短購價格燃料費用債務問題長年未解我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名"},{"start":167.422,"end":195.499,"text":"過去以前誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上台電的倒楣啊但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了台電的收支狀況加上他長期累積的負債其實證明了這能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間第三我們談問責的機制當初的熱綠能政策在成型的過程中其實雖然是多數政府但其實是少數民意產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來那更"},{"start":196.26,"end":216.038,"text":"更直接的反映是2018年的公民投票其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整所以問責的部分也沒有及格最後跟國際趨勢接軌這個大家都講減碳要用乾淨能源當然剛剛很多人講啊你如果講說半夜當然綠能發不出來啊變98比2"},{"start":218.055,"end":239.123,"text":"中午的時候可能有兩成可是晚上的時候剩2%整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%酒火一律這真的能夠面對我們各產業減能減碳的需求嗎所以就本系列了解你這四項政策指標目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討"},{"start":240.263,"end":254.649,"text":"過去用這個企五煤三綠二的能源配比作為指導綱領,不但沒有辦法如期達標,現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致,我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題,"},{"start":256.01,"end":278.019,"text":"要提出能源政策的總檢討馬上我們要進入預算的審議兩千億的支出不管是追加或者是今年的如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討沒有辦法確保未來的政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求我想不只是本席在野黨也是絕對不會同意的院長我們開頭就這樣我們今天要進入今天的主題"},{"start":279.999,"end":299.504,"text":"今天的主題是電價的政策,所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算根據台電的預算書,台電在2017年其實都還有營餘我們先不論這個台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還但是你看這幾年的支出的壓力其實是非常大的"},{"start":301.145,"end":317.204,"text":"這個支出暴增的原因這個大家都很清楚啦你當然會講說這是這幾年啦烏鴉戰爭啦有原物料暴漲的問題其實如實的呈現在圖表你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的但剛剛喔這個我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員的這個議題的時候也講"},{"start":318.966,"end":344.535,"text":"這幾年這個原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛對不對你看國際這個數字天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭這當然舉例但國際各地的趨勢是一致的也就是從這個2023年的峰值已經走下來了但是回到前面這一張我們的不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出啊顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑對吧院長那這代表了什麼意思呢為什麼支出還是這麼高"},{"start":348.004,"end":372.744,"text":"報告委員我想從這個表我們可以觀察到就是這個購電的這個成本購電的成本大幅上升因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電綠電都是在綠電所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項綠電的成本本來就比較高綠電的成本比較高對不對所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能我們的成本有辦法再節省嗎按照現行的能源政策他能夠再減少嗎我們現在就是在考慮說怎麼樣子讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降"},{"start":376.207,"end":376.307,"text":"主席"},{"start":394.201,"end":394.481,"text":"臺電收入支出盈虧"},{"start":415.072,"end":415.392,"text":"這個我要補充一下子"},{"start":437.971,"end":444.675,"text":"律電的佔比持續上我們在談成本的問題對不對政府持續的負擔這個短購的政策所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由"},{"start":456.983,"end":466.582,"text":"律電購買的成本貼補上去了所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的我希望這一件事情我講的數據是不會騙人的而是對大家來講都是公平的院長這確實是我們要面對的問題對不對"},{"start":468.256,"end":489.307,"text":"電價的部分跟委員報告我問院長這是不是我們要面對的問題綠電的初期當然成本是很高的我們期待這個比較成熟開發之後它的售價能電價能夠去比較穩定這是第一個部分其他就是關於成本的支出現在就是經濟部一直要求台電"},{"start":492.769,"end":516.746,"text":"兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉講得真好這就是本席要的未來我們在審議預算非常重要的標準我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候部長你是這個崇業集團出身對不對你當初在做董事長的時候你有沒有做個五年展望或十年展望也就是說我的集團在未來五年我預計要拓展哪些東西我的財務設算它的模型是什麼應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗對不對"},{"start":518.467,"end":535.773,"text":"那請問我們的台電應不應該比照辦理?如果剛剛院長已經講出來我們要改善台電的財務結構這件事該不該做?我講以5年,我不要講5年啦,就以這個任期到2028年我們現在因為政府機關我們在審預算今年是處理完我們編明年的預算審議完之後我們再編明年的預算"},{"start":536.993,"end":559.244,"text":"儘管政策的規劃五年十年開支票開得很快但財務的規劃每次都逐年做所以就造成很大的落差今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務的藍圖出來院長做得出來嗎是我們包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點比例上高一點因為過去啊"},{"start":561.707,"end":575.407,"text":"臺電經過三年幾乎百分之三十的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中而且民生電價也長期的偏低政府就用這補貼的方式那如果它逐漸能夠反映成本補貼的政策能夠持續的把它減緩下來"},{"start":576.508,"end":600.389,"text":"讓他財務人健全我現在在問的就是你講的是問題的核心沒有錯待會我們會談執行面嘛但問題是你現在政府有沒有規劃比如說一個四年為期的台電的財務重整計畫未來有一個財務設算的模型每一年我們大概要花多少資源做什麼樣的調度這個這樣子的計畫有沒有出來有沒有規劃有沒有時間表這個我們都希望部長能夠督促台電做出來用企業的精神來做用企業的精神來做報告部長謝謝你這樣的這個指教"},{"start":603.872,"end":630.121,"text":"我來以後啊發現這個公務的這個預算跟這個在民間的做法是相差很多對不對好今天因為時間有限我們還要聊點時間談執行的問題所以本期的要求我剛講第一能源政策總檢討第二台電四年期的財務規劃要出來要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情沒有任何討論基準你要如何說服大家謝謝接受人民的納稅錢來處理對不對好"},{"start":632.362,"end":652.642,"text":"你們都答應了齁那我們希望接下來可以看到什麼時候會出來這樣子的一個設算的模型我回去要跟台電溝通一下好沒關係我給你時間你會後來做專案的回覆我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情啦好不好那為什麼我們今天特別去談說一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提就是因為欸撥補不是只有這2000億而已餒"},{"start":656.225,"end":673.955,"text":"撥補從112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1500億然後疫後特別預算又偷偷的過了500億到了今年其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1000億然後馬上現在提進來還沒審查叫新增預算1000億在中間的左邊還有未來明年還要再撥補1000億"},{"start":676.057,"end":692.016,"text":"換言之阿是三年五千億的支出阿通通是納稅錢通通是明知明高阿我為什麼講說要檢討要設算因為你如果沒有這個東西我實在沒辦法接受這件事院長你曾經講阿在禁法補償20億的經費你講我們要下不為例你講得很大聲阿"},{"start":692.757,"end":721.793,"text":"那這個三年五千億我們該怎麼算呢?我們回顧起來這個包括疫後特別預算跟種種各年的這個撥補其中一部分當然是在補貼民生用電不足發電成本的這個補貼政策另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計劃他花了要計預計劃五千六百億他這個花很補在裡面那三年五千億什麼時候我可以聽到院長講下不為例?"},{"start":723.388,"end":743.761,"text":"我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣的一個財務報告之後他裡面明白的告訴政府也告訴人民台電用什麼方式達到他財務的平衡在成本節節上升的情況下你看2024年這個本來是虧損1500億左右撥了1000之後是還虧500億所以你要新增預算再補償這500億你才會是盈餘到了明年一樣是虧1000億左右"},{"start":752.626,"end":779.799,"text":"同樣是虧500億左右所以你又要撥1000億我現在擔心的是未來會不會沒完沒了因為我們剛剛都談了成本問題這個挑戰很大對不對未來又沒有預估標準我擔心的是這是無限上綱本席不接受因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢不管它是反映在電價也好或反映在稅收也好它都是人民的財務負擔所以這件事情不能沒完沒了這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話院長你心裡有一個規劃嗎"},{"start":780.984,"end":804.969,"text":"就是剛剛跟委員報告我向台電成都委員所要求的提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃那裡面應該告訴我們政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變他什麼時候達到財務的平衡現行的能源政策的最大問題我們談執行面的問題就是你現在的這個能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境三難困境的意思是這三件事情你只能選兩個"},{"start":806.509,"end":831.781,"text":"過去一段時間我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理對不對所以我們一定民生電價是動漲的狀態對不對我們還是希望維持產業的競爭力所以最後是什麼透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式把壞帳通通掛在台電造成政府財務規劃的負擔你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個這一段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式啦你必然要做出調整現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理你財政就一定要顧那現在好啦"},{"start":832.681,"end":846.753,"text":"財政一定要顧,你的電價一定要做調整,要反映成本對不對?那請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔?基本上是這樣,如果是照顧國人,我們當然就是產業要負擔。因為我們做出口的產業要負擔。因為他的成就是來服務外國人。"},{"start":854.073,"end":876.508,"text":"但我們要照顧國人這是第一要件第二個那產業我們幫助他具有競爭力但是他是必要的成本所以我們讓他可以比鄰近的國家那個成本更低的話他相對的就有競爭力我提醒院長今天時間震撼了但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實產業負擔院長我們未來的這個台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔是嗎這是我們的接下來的策略"},{"start":881.391,"end":881.972,"text":"部長,產業負擔是合理的,像這次就是"},{"start":887.787,"end":910.141,"text":"這個狀況沒有那麼好的產業我們動漲或是半漲不要逃避問題但是本席也提一個解方誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢你說能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧的調整跟改變也許你三方可以兼顧啊我講的三難困境是你現行的概念你把自己綁死了嘛那個氣五煤三綠二對不對很難做花很多錢然後還造成這樣的困境應該要總檢討"},{"start":911.602,"end":931.335,"text":"現在天下雜誌的名義已經出來了其實名義已經改變了我們期待政府乘著這樣子的一個趨勢大膽地做調整擺脫三難困境解決台電的財務困境可以嗎好我們跟委員繼續來請教謝謝牛許廷、委員子許、謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":447,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時9分）謝謝主席，卓院長有請。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長早安。一個好的政策通常應該要具備一些要件，今天我們討論的是能源政策跟電價政策，我想我們要先從要件開始今天的詢答，本席才疏學淺，提出四項要件，我們跟院長做一下討論。","本席認為一個好的能源政策要包含四項要件，第一，既然是發電嘛！穩定的供電一定是必要的，院長應該不會反對這個事；第二，任何的政策，不管是能源或其他，都應該要有合理的財務規劃才會可長可久，我想院長應該也不會反對這個事；第三，從民主的角度，問責的機制是很重要的，任何一個政策，不管是形成的階段、執行的階段、檢討的階段，都應該廣納民意，讓更多人來參與、來問責，我想這是重要的；最後，所有的政策，我們跟全世界畢竟不能脫鈎，所以我想接軌國際也是非常重要。這四項要件，院長是否同意，還是你要補充？一個好的能源政策……"],["卓院長榮泰：基本的要件，如果能夠把這個都很合理地做規劃，那就是看執行的問題了。"],["牛委員煦庭：剩下執行的問題對不對？好，上一次總質詢的時候，我們針對能源政策其實也做了一些討論，今天我們就回到政策面來跟院長做對話。我很遺憾的是，過去這一段時間，民進黨政府的能源政策，我認為這四項要件一項都不符合，為什麼這樣說呢？我們一項一項來講，第一，穩定的供電，我今天不是跟你談缺不缺的問題，我跟你談穩不穩的問題，2017年815大停電衝擊全臺；2021年513、517大停電衝擊全臺；到了2022年3月3號大停電衝擊全臺，四次超過百萬戶受影響的超級巨大停電發生在蔡政府的任內。我要提醒院長的是，再上一次2015年馬政府時代的唯一一次超過百萬戶大停電是因為蘇迪勒颱風，再往前追溯，再上一次有這麼大規模的停電是1999年921大地震，這就是供電不穩。那麼如果你講大規模是一種指標的話，小規模也是，2024年1到6月各大小型跳電的次數3,553件，比去年同期多了兩成，我不管原因是小動物還是意外還是天災，這些都代表供電不穩定，這第一個要件沒有達標。","第二，有關合理的財務規劃，待會我們還會進行深入討論，但是高昂的躉購價格、燃料費用、債務問題長年未解，我們正在承擔能源政策的壞帳跟惡名，過去誰執政的時候都把這些壞帳歸到台電的頭上，台電很倒楣，但現在已經到了不得不面對的時候了，台電的收支狀況加上它長期累積的負債，其實證明了能源政策的財務規劃有很大的改進空間。","第三，我們談問責的機制，當初的綠能政策在成形的過程中，雖然是多數政府，但其實是少數民意，產生的過程沒有經過合理的對話，所以才有最近電業法可能要重新修正的議題跑出來；更直接的反應是2018年的公民投票，其實多數民意就直接打臉了政府的政策，但顯然我們的政府也沒有因為民意的脈動而有像樣的調整，所以問責的部分也沒有及格。","最後跟國際趨勢接軌，大家都講減碳、要用乾淨能源，當然很多人講，如果是半夜，當然綠能發不出來，變98比2，中午的時候可能有兩成，可是晚上的時候剩2%，整天滿打滿算起來大概是88%對12%，九火一綠，這真的能夠面對我們各產業節能減碳的需求嗎？","所以就本席的了解，你這四項政策指標，目前的能源政策幾乎沒有一項達標，我們希望透過今天的答詢能夠問出政府能源政策的總檢討。過去用氣五煤三綠二能源配比作為指導綱領，不但沒有辦法如期達標，現在我們的社會正付出代價。上一次我們討論的是政策邏輯的不一致，我的本意其實是希望政府可以勇敢地面對問題，要提出能源政策的總檢討。馬上我們要進入預算的審議，兩千億的支出，不管是追加或者是今年的，如果換不到政府對於政策的修正跟檢討，沒有辦法確保未來政策的合理性可以符合這四項指標的要求，我想不只是本席，在野黨也是絕對不會同意的。","院長，我們開頭就這樣，我們要進入今天的主題。今天的主題是電價的政策，所以我們當然要從台電的財務狀況來開始做設算。根據台電的預算書，台電在2017年其實都還有盈餘，我們先不論台電兩兆多的負債能不能如期償還，但是你看這幾年的支出壓力其實是非常大的，支出暴增的原因大家都很清楚，你當然會講說這是這幾年烏俄戰爭，有原物料暴漲的問題，其實如實地呈現在圖表，你可以看到2022年到2023年那個上升的趨勢是很可怕的，但剛剛我們的院長跟部長在回答其他委員這個議題的時候也講，這幾年原物料的價格其實已經趨於平穩了嘛！對不對？你看國際的數字，天然氣的現貨跟澳洲煤炭，這當然是舉例，但國際各地的趨勢是一致的，也就是從2023年的峰值已經走下來了。但是回到前面這一張，我們不管是原料的成本或者是總額的支出，顯然沒有因為原料價格的回穩而有顯著的下滑，對吧？院長，這代表了什麼意思呢？為什麼支出還是這麼高？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，從這個表我們可以觀察到，就是購電的成本增加。"],["牛委員煦庭：購電的成本大幅上升，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：因為購電的部分大部分都是在綠電。"],["牛委員煦庭：綠電。"],["郭部長智輝：都是在綠電。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以綠電其實是一個成本相對高的選項，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的成本本來就是比較高的。"],["牛委員煦庭：綠電的成本比較高對不對？所以未來這樣子的趨勢有可能成本有辦法再節省嗎？按照現行的能源政策，它能夠再減少嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就是在考慮怎麼樣讓綠電的成本能夠繼續下降，就是過去從這個圖表裡面我們可以看得清楚，跟綠電的成本相差很多，但是綠電又是RE100必要的一個要件，所以使用綠電，我們未來的售電會把綠電族群切出來，就是他使用綠電，買綠電的價格，這樣子的話會幫助我們用灰電的這些客戶，也就是說在臺灣，他在使用臺灣銷售的這些客人其實不會因為這樣子而去成長……"],["牛委員煦庭：你剛才講到賣綠電，這我們待會會詳細來做討論。院長，你看一下這幾年台電收入支出的盈虧，其實很清楚啦！就是它不只是有兩兆多的累積負債在那個地方，這幾年連收支平衡都沒有辦法達標，這當然是一個大的問題，這問題總要解決，國際原物料的價格已經回穩，天然氣、煤炭的發電成本略有下降，但台電的財政負擔沒有得到解決，這是因為剛剛部長講了大實話，綠電的占比將持續升高，而政府……"],["郭部長智輝：這個我要補充一下，虧損的部分其實是我們補貼凍漲的部分、民生的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，等一下會細算。但我講的是總體台電的財政狀況，綠電的占比持續上升，我們現在談成本的問題，政府持續地要負擔躉購政策，所以國際原物料成本下降的部分就由綠電購買的成本貼補上去了，所以你的總體成本是沒有下降的，我希望這件事情，我講的數據是不會騙人的，這對大家來講都是公平的，院長，這確實是我們要面對的問題，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["郭部長智輝：電價的部分，跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：我問院長，院長，這是不是我們要面對的？"],["郭部長智輝：對不起！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，綠電的初期當然成本是很高的，我們期待比較成熟、開發之後，它的電價能夠趨於比較穩定，這是第一個部分。其他就是關於成本的支出，現在經濟部一直要求台電能夠在嚴謹的管控底下，所以他說兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉……"],["牛委員煦庭：兩年內要讓台電的財務狀況好轉，講得真好，這就是本席要的，未來我們在審預算非常重要的標準，我們要去探討合理的財務規劃的時候，部長，你是崇越集團出身，對不對？你當初在做董事長的時候，你有沒有做五年展望或十年展望，也就是說我的集團在未來五年，我預計要拓展哪些東西，我的財務設算模型是什麼，應該在企業的時候是有很好的經驗，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問台電應不應該比照辦理？如果剛剛院長已經講出來要改善台電的財務結構，這件事該不該做？我不要講5年，就以這個任期到2028年，現在因為政府機關我們在審預算，今年的事處理完編明年預算，審議完之後，再編明年預算。儘管政策的規劃，5年、10年開支票開得很快，但財務的規劃每次都逐年做，所以就造成很大的落差，今天既然我們要面對台電的財務狀況跟規劃，那是不是也要有一個相對長期的財務藍圖出來？院長，做得出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，包括為什麼這次我們在產業的電價調得稍微高了一點、比例上高一點，因為過去台電經過三年幾乎30%的調整電價都沒有反映在它售電的成本當中，而且民生電價也長期偏低，政府就用補貼的方式，那如果它逐漸能夠反映成本，補貼的政策能夠持續的減緩下來，讓它財務能健全……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在在問的就是，你講的是問題的核心沒有錯，待會我們會談執行面，但問題是現在政府有沒有規劃？比如說，一個四年為期的台電的財務重整計畫，未來有一個財務設算的模型，每一年我們大概要花多少資源做什麼樣的調度，這樣子的計畫有沒有出來？有沒有規劃？有沒有時間表？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們都冀望部長能夠督促台電做出來，用企業的精神來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：來，部長，用企業的精神來做。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，謝謝你這樣的指教，我來以後發現公務的預算跟在民間的作法是完全不一樣。那……"],["牛委員煦庭：相差很多，對不對？好，今天因為時間有限，我們還要留點時間談執行的問題，所以本席的要求，我剛剛講，第一，能源政策總檢討；第二，台電四年期的財務規劃要出來，要不然我認為我們未來討論撥補這件事情，沒有任何討論基準……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要如何說服大家接受用人民的納稅錢來處理，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝，這個我們可以做得到。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你們都答應了，我們希望接下來可以看到，這樣子的設算模型什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我回去要跟台電溝通一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我給你時間，你會後來做專案的回復，我想這是很多立法委員都會很關心的事情，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：為什麼我們今天要特別去談一定要有一個台電財務規劃的前提，就是因為撥補不是只有這2,000億而已，112年經濟部的單位預算就已經先過了1,500億，然後疫後特別預算又偷偷過了500億，到了今年，其實你本來的單位預算已經通過的是1,000億，然後現在提進來還沒審查的叫新增預算1,000億，在簡報中間的左邊，還有未來，明年還要再撥補1,000億，換言之是3年5,000億的支出，通通是納稅錢、通通是民脂民膏啊！我為什麼說要檢討、要設算，因為你如果沒有這個東西，我實在沒辦法接受這件事。院長，你曾經講，禁伐補償20億的經費，你講說我們要下不為例，你講得很大聲，那這個3年5,000億，我們該怎麼算呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們回顧起來，包括疫後特別預算跟各年的撥補，其中一部分當然是來補貼民生用電不足、發電成本的補貼政策，另外很重要的是電網韌性安全的十年計畫，預計花5,600億……"],["牛委員煦庭：台電要有支出嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個補在裡面，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那3年5,000億的部分，什麼時候我可以聽到院長說下不為例？我現在擔心的是沒有一個討論基準。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們期待、期待台電拿出一個剛剛委員要的那樣一個財務報告之後，裡面明白地告訴政府也告訴人民，台電用什麼方式達到財務的平衡。"],["牛委員煦庭：在成本節節上升的情況下，你看2024年本來是虧損1,500億左右，撥了1,000億之後還是虧500億，所以你要新增預算，再補上這500億才會是盈餘，到了明年一樣是虧500億左右，所以你又要撥1,000億，我現在擔心的是未來會不會沒完沒了，因為我們剛剛都談到成本問題的挑戰很大，未來又沒有預估標準，我擔心這是無限上綱，本席不接受，因為接下來這每一筆錢都是人民的納稅錢，不管是反映在電價也好，或反映在稅收也好，這都是人民的財務負擔，所以這件事情不能沒完沒了，這件事情才是真正應該要講下不為例的事情，但我們什麼時候能夠講出這句話？院長，你心裡有一個規劃嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，剛剛跟委員報告，誠如委員所要求的，我請台電提出一個完整的未來幾年的財務規劃，裡面應該告訴我們，政府的政策到什麼時候做什麼樣的改變，以及它什麼時候達到財務的平衡。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。現行能源政策的最大問題，我們談執行面的問題，就是你現在的能源框架會讓政府陷入所謂的三難困境，三難困境的意思是說這三件事情你只能選兩個，過去一段時間，我們都講因為民生電價我們不能處理，所以民生電價是凍漲的狀態，對不對？我們還是希望維持產業競爭力，所以最後透過各式各樣乾坤大挪移的方式，把壞帳通通掛在台電，造成政府財務規劃的負擔，你是不是犧牲財政成就這兩個？這段時間已經不能夠用過去的模式，你必然要做出調整，現在台電的財務規劃沒有辦法處理，你財政就一定要顧，現在好了，財政一定要顧，你的電價就一定要做調整啊，要反映成本，對不對？請問是民生要負擔還是產業要負擔？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上是這樣，如果是照顧國人，當然就是產業要負擔，做出口的產業要負擔。"],["牛委員煦庭：做出口的產業要負擔？"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為它的成就是來服務外國人嘛，但我們要照顧國人，這是第一要件。第二個，我們幫助產業具有競爭力，但是這是它必要的成本，所以我們讓它的成本比鄰近的國家更低的話，它相對地就有競爭力，我想這是基本的原則。"],["牛委員煦庭：我提醒院長，今天時間真的不多，但我覺得至少部長還算非常誠實，產業負擔，院長，未來台電的財務規劃就是要讓產業負擔，是嗎？這是不是我們接下來的策略？"],["卓院長榮泰：產業讓它合理的負擔啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：像這次就是狀況沒有那麼好的產業，我們是凍漲或半漲而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望不要逃避問題，但是本席也提一個解方，誰跟你講一定要三難困境呢？你的能源政策如果可以大刀闊斧地調整跟改變，也許你可以三方兼顧啊，我講的三難困境，是在你現行的概念下，你把自己綁死了嘛，氣五煤三綠二，對不對？很難做，花很多錢，然後還造成這樣的困境，應該要總檢討啦！現在天下雜誌的民意已經出來了，其實民意已經改變了，我們期待政府乘著這樣的趨勢，大膽做調整，擺脫三難困境，解決台電的財務困境，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們跟委員繼續來請教，我們共同來解決這個困難。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及部長的備詢。","接下來請登記第7號邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34cf7b8495bb16fe426e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63ed2a91ba8bd4818235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"10:42:43 - 10:58:32","影片長度":"00:15:49","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T10:42:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T10:58:32+08:00","duration":949,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.982218750000001,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.450343750000002,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.06846875,"end":30.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.76034375,"end":31.519718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.26221875,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.438468750000006,"end":46.268468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.43721875,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.95159375,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.140968750000006,"end":55.229093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.735343750000006,"end":61.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.080343750000004,"end":65.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.26534375,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.49284375,"end":69.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.87659375,"end":71.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.23909375000001,"end":72.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.62721875,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.94721875,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.01034375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.71846875,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.07284375,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.03034375,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.68784375,"end":91.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.33721875,"end":93.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.58159375000001,"end":99.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.06596875000001,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.20846875000001,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.48159375,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.45846875000001,"end":128.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.98971875,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.74034375000002,"end":136.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.07284375,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.14409375,"end":141.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.78096875,"end":143.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.19409375,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.07159375,"end":147.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.55221875,"end":148.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.54784375,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.07471875000002,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.77846875,"end":165.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.45659375000002,"end":167.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.53221875,"end":168.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.42221875,"end":169.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.77221875,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.32034375,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.61534375000002,"end":178.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.18034375000002,"end":181.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.77471875,"end":182.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.66909375,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.88346875000002,"end":188.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.35159375,"end":190.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.48221875000002,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.21159375000002,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.10159375,"end":201.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.93596875,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.14659375000002,"end":207.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":208.16721875000002,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.36971875,"end":209.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.19659375,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.15784375,"end":221.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.44784375,"end":222.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.86534375000002,"end":224.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.48534375000003,"end":226.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.43846875000003,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.39159375000003,"end":231.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.11284375000002,"end":234.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.90971875000002,"end":236.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.09096875,"end":238.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.36909375000002,"end":241.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.73159375,"end":246.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.26659375000003,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.88659375,"end":250.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.40096875,"end":259.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":259.72034375000004,"end":265.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":266.40284375000005,"end":267.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":268.15784375000004,"end":268.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":268.84971875,"end":270.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":270.62159375000005,"end":271.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":271.75221875,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":275.48159375,"end":278.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":278.67096875000004,"end":280.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.56096875000003,"end":285.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":285.42096875000004,"end":287.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":287.56409375000004,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.75784375,"end":291.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":291.47909375,"end":296.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":296.59221875000003,"end":301.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.11471875,"end":304.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.47284375000004,"end":308.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.65784375000004,"end":314.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.59346875,"end":317.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.82096875,"end":320.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.51659375,"end":324.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.99284375,"end":328.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.67159375,"end":330.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.38846875,"end":336.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.29471875,"end":338.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.18471875,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.85971875,"end":341.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.14221875000004,"end":342.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.04909375,"end":344.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.33159375,"end":345.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.47471875,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.55909375000005,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":355.31721875,"end":358.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.57409375000003,"end":376.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":359.14784375000005,"end":359.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":361.03784375000004,"end":361.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.83284375000005,"end":379.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.81971875000005,"end":381.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.18221875,"end":384.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.23284375000003,"end":382.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":383.86971875,"end":394.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":394.41659375,"end":395.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.54721875,"end":396.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":397.50471875000005,"end":401.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.60534375000003,"end":408.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.45659375,"end":409.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.75159375000004,"end":411.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.78096875,"end":414.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.27409375,"end":416.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.26534375,"end":418.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.00346875,"end":421.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.38284375,"end":421.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.32784375,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.31909375000004,"end":426.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.74471875,"end":429.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.33909375,"end":432.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.95909375,"end":442.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.86034375,"end":458.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":457.29284375000003,"end":463.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.24971875000006,"end":490.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.38471875000005,"end":517.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.50659375000004,"end":494.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":517.78971875,"end":518.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":519.20721875,"end":523.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":524.94471875,"end":535.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.5928437499999,"end":545.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":541.97159375,"end":542.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":542.2922187500001,"end":542.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.4265937499999,"end":547.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.1984687500001,"end":551.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":552.8390937500001,"end":553.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.8684687500001,"end":554.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.8428437499999,"end":556.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.9734687499999,"end":558.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":558.40784375,"end":559.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":559.85909375,"end":565.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.29284375,"end":569.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.1865937499999,"end":573.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.59534375,"end":575.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.72159375,"end":579.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.32846875,"end":588.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.79971875,"end":590.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.6853437500001,"end":593.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":593.00159375,"end":593.3897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.9128437500001,"end":595.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":597.0515937499999,"end":599.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":600.2747187500001,"end":603.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":603.7678437500001,"end":606.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":606.95721875,"end":609.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":609.60659375,"end":610.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":611.0578437500001,"end":612.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":612.8803437500001,"end":614.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":614.93909375,"end":617.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":617.21721875,"end":617.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":617.89221875,"end":619.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":619.59659375,"end":620.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":620.57534375,"end":622.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":621.16596875,"end":623.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":623.8490937500001,"end":627.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":626.05971875,"end":629.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":629.87346875,"end":635.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":636.5222187500001,"end":639.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.81284375,"end":640.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":641.55096875,"end":643.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":643.50846875,"end":645.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":645.46596875,"end":647.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":647.9297187500001,"end":653.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":654.4265937499999,"end":656.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":656.41784375,"end":658.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":659.52284375,"end":669.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":669.95159375,"end":670.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":671.0147187500002,"end":672.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":673.2422187500001,"end":675.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":676.39784375,"end":678.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":679.08096875,"end":684.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":685.7297187500001,"end":686.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":685.83096875,"end":704.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":705.1697187500001,"end":708.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.54096875,"end":705.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":708.30846875,"end":710.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.58221875,"end":711.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.86909375,"end":712.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.84784375,"end":713.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":713.3034687500001,"end":721.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":722.53409375,"end":723.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":724.2553437500001,"end":729.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":729.6215937500001,"end":731.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":731.81534375,"end":733.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":733.5365937500001,"end":734.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":735.4265937499999,"end":735.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":735.74721875,"end":738.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":738.7509687500001,"end":742.3115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":742.90221875,"end":748.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":749.9897187500001,"end":751.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":751.76159375,"end":754.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":754.84971875,"end":755.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.1028437500001,"end":755.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":755.30534375,"end":757.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.40659375,"end":755.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.71846875,"end":760.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.3972187500001,"end":765.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.15596875,"end":768.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":768.92346875,"end":769.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.4253437500001,"end":773.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.59346875,"end":782.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":782.5247187500001,"end":784.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":784.93784375,"end":785.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":786.4397187500001,"end":786.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":786.8953437499999,"end":789.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":789.71346875,"end":791.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":792.12659375,"end":796.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":796.8347187500001,"end":798.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":798.77534375,"end":799.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":799.7878437500001,"end":802.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":802.6397187500002,"end":808.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":808.9678437500002,"end":810.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.4865937500001,"end":814.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":815.44784375,"end":822.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":821.0334687500001,"end":821.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":821.7253437500001,"end":824.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":824.79659375,"end":829.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":829.97721875,"end":852.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":839.66346875,"end":839.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":852.15096875,"end":863.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":863.57534375,"end":866.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":866.68034375,"end":876.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":876.7040937500001,"end":877.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":878.08784375,"end":882.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":882.27284375,"end":887.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":887.90909375,"end":894.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":894.38909375,"end":918.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.4397187500001,"end":895.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":900.44721875,"end":900.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":918.8915937500001,"end":919.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":920.1740937500001,"end":924.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":923.9709687500001,"end":925.2703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":925.55721875,"end":927.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":927.6328437500001,"end":934.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":929.79284375,"end":929.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":942.7865937500001,"end":946.0772187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.912,"end":21.978,"text":"謝謝韓院長,我是不是請一下卓院長跟經濟部麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備選"},{"start":30.103,"end":50.091,"text":"邱委員好院長早院長我想今天我們來討論臺灣的整體的這個能源的配比跟電價的相關問題那從早上從剛剛聽到現在我突然發現立法院變成了一個永永和大會來院長我讓您看一下"},{"start":52.499,"end":81.184,"text":"這個是在今年的10月22日由臺電去公布的臺灣現在的發電的能源配比很清楚的看到這個裡面沒有核電沒有核電臺灣的燃煤大概三成三左右燃氣大概將近五成49.5我們的光電跟風電也是所謂的再生能源"},{"start":83.21,"end":85.951,"text":"臺灣因為核三的二號基礎在碎修所以臺灣現在是沒有核能發電的"},{"start":100.857,"end":127.044,"text":"來院長這個要跟您請教這個是跟我們今天討論的議題有關能源配比我們剛剛談到了能源的發電方式包括燃氣燃煤光電等等但是我們一直討論到他的發電方式沒有人去真正討論他的發電區位在哪裡用電區位在哪裡院長請您看一下2023年北部"},{"start":128.865,"end":133.248,"text":"中部的供電量是783億度,它的用電量是620億度。南部供電有811度,但是它的用電只有745度。"},{"start":152.31,"end":171.778,"text":"換句話說我們都非常清楚臺灣長年都是供電區域不平衡院長您同意我的看法嗎長年都是南電北送用南部來發電給臺北使用來這個是未來"},{"start":173.999,"end":199.527,"text":"2025年的時候臺北北東的用電將會到達600萬千瓦但是只剩下和平電廠130萬千瓦可以發電如果我們的供電量繼續這樣發展下去北部的發電量跟用電量的缺口將會到達470萬千瓦"},{"start":203.724,"end":211.729,"text":"這個也是從台電拿出來的資料,院長您看過吧?看過吧?好,我接下來要請,我要給院長一點時間"},{"start":214.212,"end":237.911,"text":"院長您前兩天到這個桃竹苗去你說要開發桃竹苗大溪谷要停水電開發才會有希望我剛剛給您看的北部的供電缺口這麼大北部連蓋一個超高壓的電廠都會受到阻撓到目前為止台電一直沒有辦法去施工那未來呢臺北人要用什麼發電"},{"start":239.523,"end":258.972,"text":"臺北的供電要從哪裡來那您說桃竹苗要去發展大溪谷大家現在都要去發展AI產業都要去做科學園區北部的供電哪裡來院長你說要提水電開發我可不可以再給你一點時間讓你再更詳細的說明你的水電開發要怎麼做"},{"start":259.915,"end":274.176,"text":"最直接最快速的看得到的當然就是我們第三接收站完成之後大潭電廠大潭電廠他就可以因為天然氣的使用可以順利的發電那他會逐步的提高他的發電量機組會開始運作"},{"start":275.518,"end":303.945,"text":"另外一個就是現在還在努力環評的這個第四接收站將來的協和電廠也是要透過第四接收站來啟動他的燃氣機組那這兩個接收這兩個電廠他的量如果大起來之後相對對於北東電網整個北部地區的用電會有明顯的改善目前是朝向降那其他的當然還有一些IPP民營電廠在做其他的這個努力建造過程我覺得我們還是要去說服"},{"start":305.006,"end":330.069,"text":"如果北部持續不給蓋電廠的話剛剛郭國文委員很強烈的反對把這麼多的電廠蓋在台南、蓋在高雄區域的發電平衡這個也是未來行政院應該要去考量的如果說產業的發展不能平衡的話那我們未來的這些半導體、AI產業全部拉到我們南部來嘛"},{"start":331.431,"end":345.518,"text":"南部的電是足夠供應的嘛南部的水是足夠供應的嘛全部拉到南部來嘛對不對不能你用電要用在台北那又不給蓋電廠又不給發展這個太奇怪了吧"},{"start":346.442,"end":347.323,"text":"市長,您同意我的看法嗎?"},{"start":376.882,"end":401.176,"text":"那我覺得我們南部人為什麼要一直承受南電北送這樣的壓力呢?更何況台灣各地的發展會很快有適當的地點能夠得到大家地方政府跟地方居民的同意如果有好的地點適合開發我們也認為及早能夠儲備更充裕的電能對南北中各地都是需要的"},{"start":401.63,"end":429.303,"text":"多元能源的開發這個我是非常支持在經濟部的經濟委員會的質詢裡頭我也多次去強調但是你要看到這個工商產業重工業在南部發電在南部我要跟你談到這個問題未來會講到碳費的分配比例那我們南部多爭取一點環境部跟我們說這個不是財政分張啊這個我就不能接受啦院長"},{"start":431.323,"end":442.551,"text":"。﹗"},{"start":444.248,"end":467.755,"text":"這樣不合理嗎?這樣你跟我說這個叫財政分贓?我不知道部長那個環境部是不是講得太快啦?但是如果就這樣的一個邏輯來看,我勢必是要替南部多講一些話,要替我們高雄多講一些話。讓部長討論,碳費在這個環境變遷法當中是有它的使用的現實性。報告委員,其實因為是媒體問我說這是不是分贓,我說碳費當然不是分贓,利益分贓。"},{"start":468.695,"end":484.656,"text":"如果大家誤解我向委員致歉事實上因為碳費有13個用途本來就有一個是要補助給地方因為盧市長說要八成給地方然後有原住民委員說兩成要做原住民基本上其實有13個項目在裡面"},{"start":486.178,"end":512.65,"text":"我們必須說整個碳費要減量的指定目標是在中央政府我認為我今天沒有要跟你討論碳費這個議題但是我講就是說區域的均衡發展我覺得對於南部的重視如果我南部減碳的減碳量比較高我南部的產業發展的需求包括你現在電廠都蓋在南部實際上你對於南部的照顧其實是應該多一點的我的邏輯概念是這樣好來"},{"start":514.671,"end":520.039,"text":"接下來那個環境部請回喔院長那講到這個發電講到用電量電價"},{"start":525.457,"end":551.232,"text":"剛剛大家也都在問嘛臺電這個電價審議委員會調整了幾次電價大家都說工業用電比較高那您也談到了臺電因為過去幾次的動漲所以臺電的財政缺口是很大的對不對所以我們在總預算裡頭我們也編列了一千億的撥補可是現在國民黨的主席說他們要發動大家來阻擋"},{"start":554.302,"end":579.7,"text":"臺電的這個這個撥補你的1000億補給臺電臺電是去吸收全民動漲民生用電動漲之後的成本是不是所以這個等於是撥補等於是幫助全民拿來把它跟淨法補償金一起做比較淨法補償金只有不到10%的原住民朋友是可以領得到的"},{"start":580.376,"end":595.701,"text":"但是對於臺灣的用電安全對於臺灣的整體的電價維持甚至臺電的營運這個一千億是必要的嗎?院長您同意我的看法嗎?是的那未來你們會怎麼做呢?"},{"start":597.073,"end":597.473,"text":"本院議員"},{"start":619.645,"end":640.219,"text":"能夠得到大多數委員的同意。我希望週五明之後能夠得到委員的同意。我們一起。因為院長您的態度跟這個敗會其實是很重要啦齁。剛剛講到電價的問題我就要持續再請教您喔。好多的委員都說核電比較便宜,你同意嗎?"},{"start":641.601,"end":653.611,"text":"用核電有沒有比較便宜剛剛談到了韓國郭部長你也特別講了嘛韓國在10月24號又漲了工業電價9.7%又漲了9.7%韓國的發電量核電佔了三成韓國的核電發電量佔了三成所以韓國現在的產業電價他的工業用電的電價是也高過於台灣來"},{"start":671.315,"end":683.112,"text":"這是讓您看一下韓國現在的發電配比它的核能是佔了三成如果核能是比較便宜的話韓國為什麼在兩年內要七度調漲電價"},{"start":685.971,"end":710.203,"text":"報告委員這個跟我們一樣主要他還是因為你看他的天然氣跟燃煤這個韓國本身沒有辦法採取到這個天然氣跟燃煤他一定要一樣跟我們從其他的國家來進口所以這個成本的結構大家都差不多的所以他但是我的看法就是說核電並沒有比較便宜啊"},{"start":711.916,"end":734.493,"text":"對不是這樣嗎對對對你的核電的發電量如果說你的核電是可以這樣子cover的話其實韓國不需要7度調漲電價嘛那大家現在一直都在問說核四要重啟要求行政院現在要重新評估核能、核電的使用院長您剛有一句話講得很好喔有沒有去問過新北市的市民"},{"start":735.778,"end":759.827,"text":"合一、合二、合四都在新北。剛剛前一位委員說合三還可以放,還可以再放五年,所以那一核廢料可以放在合三,那有沒有去問過屏東人?反正不是放在他家,把人家都洗不掉,是這樣改良嗎?合廢料如果不能處理的話,要如何去談重啟核能呢?"},{"start":764.516,"end":773.532,"text":"韓國在發展核能甚至把核能廠都輸出了但是你看看他這麼用心用在核能上面他也不是百分百用核能"},{"start":775.34,"end":791.209,"text":"如果說他在推核能他應該要百分之百推核能他沒有人敢百分之百用那麼高的核能所以我現在要跟您談的就是說我們現在你這個再生能源的配比核能在台灣是越來越萎縮"},{"start":792.19,"end":811.59,"text":"再生能源的配比是越來越高你看到我們現在的這個比重發電結構的比重包括我們在前幾天的風力發電都撐過了颱風的考驗我們的風力發電扛下了核電退廠的空缺您同意我的看法吧因為這個風力發電它是綠色能源"},{"start":815.563,"end":818.786,"text":"未來臺灣的風力發電能不能扛起這個重責大任當我們現在不再要求全部國產化的時候"},{"start":834.099,"end":834.119,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":852.765,"end":873.356,"text":"我們當然是可以的,因為現在的科技非常的進步,所以我們可以去觀察跟去monitor他的狀況,所以我其實是非常有把握的,就是未來的風機一定會比過去的風機表現得更好,而且就像您剛才所說的,這個經過颱風的洗禮,他還是屹立不搖,"},{"start":878.151,"end":878.552,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":894.452,"end":919.608,"text":"如果是這樣因為我最後剩下30秒我本來還要問這所謂新能源的開發跟規劃剛剛有談到地熱跟氫能院長你講地熱的成本很高氫能的成本也相對高但是我還沒有在報告裡頭看到具體關於氫能或者是地熱開發的這些時程進度有沒有可能再補一份報告給本席或者是給立法院"},{"start":920.508,"end":945.531,"text":"就你們現在有的規劃跟開發的時程地熱的深層、地熱的開發目前在宜蘭園山正在探勘當中我們希望他能夠探勘出有一定的成果之後我們才向大家來做報告謝謝邱議員委員的諮詢謝謝左院長、部長的備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（10時42分）謝謝韓院長，是不是請卓院長跟經濟部部長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長早！院長，今天我們來討論臺灣整體能源配比跟電價的相關問題，早上從剛剛聽到現在，我突然發現立法院變成了一個擁核大會。院長，我讓您看一下，這是今年10月22號由台電公布的臺灣現在發電的能源配比，很清楚地看到這裡面沒有核電、沒有核電！臺灣的燃煤占三成三左右，燃氣則將近五成、49.5%，光電跟風電，也就是所謂的再生能源，大幅地上漲，院長，這個您有看過吧？我想經濟部應該每天都會持續掌握我們的能源發電配比。到目前為止，臺灣因為核三2號機組歲修，所以臺灣現在是沒有核能發電的。","來！院長，要跟您請教，這個跟我們今天討論的議題有關，就是能源配比的部分。我們剛剛談到了能源發電方式，包括燃氣、燃煤、光電等，我們一直討論發電的方式，但沒有人真正去討論發電的區位在哪裡？用電的區位在哪裡？院長，請您看一下，2023年北部的供電量是750億度，但是它的用電量是931億度；中部的供電量是883億度，它的用電量是620億度；南部供電量有811億度，但是它的用電量只有745億度。換句話說，我們都非常清楚臺灣長年都是供電區域不平衡，院長，您同意我的看法嗎？長年都是南電北送，用南部來發電給臺北使用。這個圖是未來2025年的時候，北東的用電將會到達600萬瓩，但是只剩下和平電廠130萬瓩可以發電，如果我們的供電量繼續這樣發展下去，北部發電量跟用電量的缺口將會到達470萬瓩，這個也是從台電拿出來的資料，院長，您看過吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：接下來我要給院長一點時間。院長，您前兩天到桃竹苗去，你說開發桃竹苗大矽谷要挺水電開發才會有希望，我剛剛給您看的，北部的供電缺口這麼大，北部連蓋一個超高壓的變電所都會受到阻撓，到目前為止，台電一直沒有辦法施工，那未來呢？臺北人要用什麼發電？臺北的供電要從哪裡來？您說桃竹苗要發展大矽谷，大家現在都要發展AI產業，都要去做科學園區，北部的供電哪裡來？院長，您說要挺水電開發，我可不可以再給您一點時間，讓您再更詳細的說明您的水電開發要怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：最直接、最快速、看得到的，當然就是我們第三接收站完成之後，大潭電廠就可以因為天然氣的使用而順利發電，它會逐步提高它的發電量，機組會開始運作。另外一個就是現在還在努力環評的第四接收站，將來的協和電廠也是要透過第四接收站來啟動它的燃氣機組，這兩個電廠的量如果大起來之後，相對對於北東電網、整個北部地區的用電會有明顯的改善，目前是朝向這樣，其他當然還有一些IPP民營電廠在做其他的努力，建造過程……"],["邱委員議瑩：看起來我們還是要去說服如果北部持續不給蓋電廠的話，剛剛郭國文委員很強烈的反對把這麼多的電廠蓋在臺南、蓋在高雄，區域的發電平衡也是未來行政院應該要去考量的，如果產業的發展不能平衡的話，那未來這一些半導體、AI產業全部拉到我們南部來嘛！南部的電是足夠供應的，南部的水是足夠供應的，全部拉到南部來嘛，對不對？不能你用電要用在臺北，然後又不給蓋電廠、又不給發展，這個太奇怪了吧！院長您同意我的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是希望能夠區域平衡，南電北送的這種狀況，如果能夠把它做合理的規劃，這用整個的輸配電系統來看也是比較安全的，所以……"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊，所謂強韌電網的制度，包括輸配電的成本降低，這個其實都在未來我們談到臺灣的韌性電網的整個大方向、大計畫裡面嘛！所以如果發電的區域不能平衡的話，那我覺得我們南部人為什麼要一直承受南電北送這樣的壓力呢？更何況……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣各地的發展會很快。有適當的地點、能夠得到地方政府跟地方居民的同意，如果有好的地點適合開發，我們也認為應該及早儲備更充裕的電能，對南北中各地都是需要的。"],["邱委員議瑩：多元能源的開發，這個我是非常支持，在經濟委員會的質詢裡頭，我也曾多次強調，但是你要看到工商產業、重工業在南部，發電在南部，我要跟你談到這個問題，未來會講到碳費的分配比例，我們南部多爭取一點，環境部就跟我們說這個不是財政分贓，院長，這個我就不能接受了。用要用南部的，但是關於碳費的收取，我如果要求我們南部多分一點，讓產業去做減碳，讓產業去更新設備，這樣不合理嗎？這樣你跟我說這個叫財政分贓，我不知道部長、環境部是不是講得太快了，但是如果就這樣的邏輯來看，我勢必是要替南部多講一些話、要替我們高雄多講一些話。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓部長答復……"],["邱委員議瑩：來，部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得碳費在環境變遷法當中是有它使用的限制性，請部長回復。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實因為是媒體問我這是不是分贓，我說碳費當然不是利益分贓，如果大家誤解，我向委員致歉。事實上因為碳費有13個用途，本來就有1個是要補助給地方，因為盧市長說要八成給地方，然後有原住民委員說兩成要做原住民的部分。基本上其實有13個項目在裡面，我們必須說，整個碳費要減量的指定目標是在中央政府。"],["邱委員議瑩：我今天沒有要跟你討論碳費這個議題，但是我要講的是，基於區域的均衡發展，我覺得對於南部的重視，如果我們南部減碳量比較高，加上南部產業發展的需求，包括現在電廠都蓋在南部，實際上對於南部的照顧其實是應該多一點的，我的邏輯概念是這樣。環境部請回。","接下來，院長，講到發電、用電量、電價，剛剛大家也都在問台電、電價審議委員會調整了幾次電價，大家都說工業用電比較高，您也談到了台電因為過去幾次的凍漲，所以台電的財政缺口是很大的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我們在總預算裡頭也編列了1,000億的撥補，可是現在國民黨的主席說，他們要發動大家來阻擋台電這個撥補。你的1,000億補給台電，台電是去吸收全民凍漲、民生用電凍漲之後的成本，是不是？所以這個撥補等於是幫助全民，拿來把它跟禁伐補償金一起做比較，禁伐補償金只有不到10%的原住民朋友是可以領得到的，但是對於臺灣的用電安全，對於臺灣整體的電價維持，甚至台電的營運，這個1,000億是必要的嘛，院長，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，未來你們會怎麼做呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是極力來爭取包括追加預算的1,000億跟明年的總預算。針對明年的中央政府總預算，我是認為現在我們已經準備朝向一個好的開始，至少在禮拜五我就要來向大院做中央政府總預算的報告跟說明，我期待經過說明之後，能夠得到大多數委員的同意……"],["邱委員議瑩：說明之後還不知道能不能付委審查耶。"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望說明之後能夠得到委員的同意，我們一起……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以院長，您的態度跟拜會其實是很重要的。剛剛講到電價的問題，我就持續再請教您，好多委員都說核電比較便宜，你同意嗎？用核電有沒有比較便宜？剛剛談到了韓國，郭部長你也特別講了，韓國在10月24日又漲了工業電價9.7%。在韓國的發電量中，韓國的核電發電量占了三成，所以韓國現在的產業電價、工業用電電價也高過於臺灣，請您看一下韓國現在的發電配比，它的核能是占了三成。如果核能是比較便宜的話，韓國為什麼在兩年內要7度調漲電價？部長，你可以跟我回答嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個跟我們一樣，主要它還是因為……你看它的天然氣跟燃煤，韓國本身沒有辦法採取到天然氣跟燃煤，它一定要跟我們一樣，從其他的國家來進口，所以這個成本的結構大家都差不多的。所以它……"],["邱委員議瑩：但是我的看法就是，核電並沒有比較便宜啊，不是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對。"],["邱委員議瑩：以核電的發電量來看，如果核電是可以這樣子cover的話，其實韓國不需要7度調漲電價嘛。大家現在一直都在問核四要重啟，要求行政院現在要重新評估核能、核電的使用。院長，你剛剛有一句話講得很好，有沒有去問過新北市的市民，核一、核二、核四都在新北，剛剛前一位委員說核三還可以放，還可以再放5年，所以核廢料可以放在核三，那有沒有去問過屏東人？反正不是放在他家，別人的孩子都死不完，是這樣的概念嗎？核廢料如果不能處理的話，要如何去談重啟核能呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，韓國是在發展核能，甚至於它把核能廠都輸出了，但是你看看它這麼用心在核能上面，它也不是百分之百用核能。"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：如果它在推核能，它應該要百分之百推核能，但是沒有人敢百分之百用那麼高的核能。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我現在要跟你談的是再生能源的配比，核能在臺灣是越來越萎縮，再生能源的配比是越來越高，你看到我們現在的發電結構比重，包括我們的風力發電在前幾天都撐過了颱風的考驗，我們的風力發電扛下了核電退場的空缺，你同意我的看法吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是，因為風力發電是綠色能源，核能是潔淨能源，這有兩個不同的團體在世界上主推。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我現在要再進一步請教，未來臺灣的風力發電能不能扛起這個重責大任，當我們現在不再要求全部國產化的時候，我們也看到中國的風力發電機被颱風一吹全部折斷了，臺灣的是安然無恙，但是你未來不再要求全部國產化的時候，我們的品質能不能還是維持一樣？你的風機品質能不能維持一樣，有沒有這個信心可以做得到？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是可以，因為現在的科技非常進步，所以我們可以去觀察、monitoring它的狀況，所以我其實是非常有把握的，未來的風機一定會比過去的風機表現得更好，而且就像你剛才所說的，經過颱風的洗禮，它還是屹立不搖，但是在中國基本上它的信賴程度沒有那麼高，所以經過一個颱風以後它就折斷了。我們國產化的目的是讓它具有世界競爭力，我們不是……"],["邱委員議瑩：如果是這樣，我最後剩下30秒，我本來還要問所謂的新能源開發及規劃，剛剛也有談到地熱和氫能，院長，你講地熱的成本很高，氫能的成本也相對高，但是我還沒有在報告裡面看到具體關於氫能或地熱開發的時程進度，有沒有可能再補一份報告給本席或是給立法院，就你們現在有的規劃及開發時程？"],["卓院長榮泰：深層地熱的開發目前在宜蘭員山正在探勘當中，我們希望能夠探勘出一定的成果之後，我們才向大家做報告，隨時跟委員做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望能夠建立一個模型。"],["邱委員議瑩：還有包括氫能的進度，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、部長的備詢。","報告院會，現在我們休息10分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156216","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f340eb99b65c800f3f96e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63e11aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:25:45 - 10:42:37","影片長度":"00:16:52","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T10:25:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T10:42:37+08:00","duration":1012,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.69096875,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.53846875,"end":48.884093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.94971875,"end":61.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.299718750000004,"end":64.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.48909375000001,"end":66.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.34971875000001,"end":68.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.45034375,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.66909375,"end":75.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.30596875,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.75284375000001,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.06034375,"end":85.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.68846875,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.16909375,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.61596875000001,"end":91.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.89846875,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.46346875,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.33221875000001,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.25596875000001,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.36971875,"end":102.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.67721875000001,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.04409375,"end":105.93846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.68096875,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.76096875,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.83221875000001,"end":114.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.81471875000001,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.06721875000001,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.69971875,"end":123.01596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.47159375000001,"end":126.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.99846875000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.55096875,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.91784375,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.70659375,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.87909375,"end":136.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.92096875000001,"end":137.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.09784375,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.85284375,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.55721875,"end":142.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.31221875,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.64096875,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.81346875,"end":152.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.64846875,"end":153.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.82971875,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.90096875,"end":158.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.75721875000002,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.74846875,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.04784375,"end":162.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.26284375,"end":165.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.28346875,"end":167.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.73471875,"end":168.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.88221875000002,"end":170.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.46409375000002,"end":172.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.91534375,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.15159375000002,"end":180.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.69471875000002,"end":181.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.04471875000002,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.71971875,"end":182.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.75346875000002,"end":188.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.07409375,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.28471875000002,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.21284375000002,"end":186.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.98034375,"end":191.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.16971875000002,"end":197.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.39659375000002,"end":198.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.13471875000002,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.07534375,"end":204.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.69096875000002,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.63534375,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.51971875,"end":223.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.21534375000002,"end":228.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.83909375000002,"end":232.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.91846875000002,"end":239.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.12846875000002,"end":240.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.73159375,"end":245.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.56221875000003,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.45659375000002,"end":248.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.88659375,"end":249.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.20284375000003,"end":252.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.97034375,"end":256.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.79659375,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.68221875,"end":261.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.34846875,"end":263.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.90096875,"end":266.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.56721875,"end":267.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.61346875000004,"end":272.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.54096875,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.45596875,"end":281.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.94471875,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.45909375,"end":285.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.31534375,"end":287.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.58096875,"end":288.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.42034375000003,"end":291.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.01909375,"end":293.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.02721875000003,"end":297.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.53721875,"end":298.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.93784375,"end":299.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.69284375,"end":301.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.07221875000005,"end":304.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.33346875,"end":307.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.65346875,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.42096875000004,"end":315.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.98159375,"end":319.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.77846875,"end":320.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.67284375,"end":320.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.09471875,"end":321.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.08596875,"end":325.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.30909375000005,"end":335.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.51846875,"end":336.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.10909375,"end":344.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.69096875,"end":340.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.00721875000005,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.83346875,"end":346.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.03596875,"end":360.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.71909375,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.96784375000004,"end":350.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.70471875000004,"end":359.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.76346875,"end":367.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.22659375,"end":377.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.65971875,"end":382.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.11471875,"end":385.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.13096875,"end":386.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.68784375,"end":386.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.73846875000004,"end":387.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.02534375000005,"end":387.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.05909375000005,"end":387.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.24471875,"end":393.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.63284375,"end":388.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.36596875000004,"end":398.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.00284375,"end":398.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.68596875000003,"end":400.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.97284375000004,"end":403.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.13659375000003,"end":409.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.29221875,"end":407.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.82784375,"end":415.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.40096875,"end":415.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.08846875,"end":415.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.32471875000005,"end":419.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.64096875,"end":416.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.74221875,"end":417.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.56471875000005,"end":439.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.44221875000005,"end":419.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.81346875,"end":419.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.96534375000005,"end":420.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":420.62346875000003,"end":420.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.55409375000005,"end":435.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.92909375000005,"end":436.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.14846875,"end":436.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.23284375000003,"end":436.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.36784375,"end":436.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.48534375,"end":441.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.17284375,"end":448.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.50096875,"end":453.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.73221875,"end":453.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.74909375000004,"end":458.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.81659375000004,"end":454.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.43596875000003,"end":460.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.17409375000005,"end":470.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.38346875,"end":472.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.83471875000004,"end":479.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.66909375000006,"end":487.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.97159375,"end":489.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.43534375,"end":492.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.64596875,"end":493.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.99596875000003,"end":495.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.78471875,"end":496.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.91534375000003,"end":498.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.51409375000003,"end":500.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.26909375,"end":502.41659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.80471875,"end":503.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.28534375000004,"end":511.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":507.58034375000005,"end":508.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.96409375,"end":509.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.36909375000005,"end":509.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.99346875000003,"end":510.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.64721875000004,"end":513.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.9253437500001,"end":518.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.7009687500001,"end":521.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.1772187500001,"end":533.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.4465937500001,"end":526.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.51409375,"end":526.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.64909375,"end":526.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.6828437500001,"end":527.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.03721875,"end":534.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.08659375,"end":539.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.30971875,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.45721875,"end":548.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.81096875,"end":546.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.26159375,"end":555.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.27409375,"end":551.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.35409375,"end":551.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.72471875,"end":557.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.88471875,"end":559.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.36534375,"end":561.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.33971875,"end":563.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.75284375,"end":564.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.76971875,"end":565.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.6303437500001,"end":566.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.55846875,"end":574.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.9453437500001,"end":576.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.6328437500001,"end":578.2022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.5903437500001,"end":581.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.8303437500001,"end":584.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.5303437499999,"end":585.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.6484687500001,"end":585.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.4753437500001,"end":586.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.0322187500001,"end":587.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.57221875,"end":586.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.39471875,"end":589.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.74471875,"end":591.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.74846875,"end":599.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.19909375,"end":599.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.5828437499999,"end":604.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.1015937500001,"end":602.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.8815937500001,"end":605.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.36659375,"end":608.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.5222187500001,"end":612.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.86346875,"end":614.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.05721875,"end":616.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.52534375,"end":620.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.27159375,"end":621.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.3640937499999,"end":624.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.54096875,"end":626.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.7009687500001,"end":627.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.6965937500001,"end":628.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.9453437500001,"end":629.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.4934687500001,"end":631.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.56096875,"end":634.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.5815937500001,"end":644.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.2847187500001,"end":657.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.6672187500001,"end":659.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.7084687500001,"end":661.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.34096875,"end":663.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.18034375,"end":667.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.94346875,"end":668.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.47909375,"end":670.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.21721875,"end":672.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.2465937500001,"end":673.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.6259687500001,"end":676.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":678.7434687500001,"end":679.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.8740937500002,"end":681.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.2747187500001,"end":681.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.84409375,"end":685.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":686.64096875,"end":688.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.88534375,"end":691.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.28159375,"end":693.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.12909375,"end":696.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.8797187499999,"end":698.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.9765937500001,"end":702.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.09409375,"end":704.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.33846875,"end":706.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.4097187500001,"end":709.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.9622187500001,"end":712.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.7253437500001,"end":714.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.8728437500001,"end":716.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.05846875,"end":716.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":716.5265937500001,"end":716.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.61096875,"end":718.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":717.5390937500001,"end":718.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.06221875,"end":718.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.1297187499999,"end":720.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.3490937500001,"end":720.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.96471875,"end":722.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.69034375,"end":722.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.83784375,"end":723.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.39034375,"end":726.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":724.8290937500001,"end":725.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.58846875,"end":726.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.9722187500001,"end":729.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.40221875,"end":729.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.84096875,"end":736.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.0603437500001,"end":730.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":736.9622187500001,"end":739.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.9153437500001,"end":743.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.47596875,"end":745.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":745.9734687499999,"end":749.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.5803437500001,"end":755.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":756.58784375,"end":758.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.56221875,"end":761.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.5447187500001,"end":763.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.03409375,"end":764.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.3503437500001,"end":767.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.6240937500002,"end":770.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.8303437500001,"end":779.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.30284375,"end":772.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.5378437500001,"end":779.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.7065937500001,"end":781.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.6809687500001,"end":782.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.55846875,"end":784.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.3428437500002,"end":791.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":786.49034375,"end":789.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.9665937500001,"end":791.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":791.3672187500001,"end":791.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.10971875,"end":796.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.9365937500002,"end":796.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":796.4297187500001,"end":797.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":798.9440937500001,"end":802.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.6228437500001,"end":807.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.69034375,"end":804.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":804.63096875,"end":808.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":807.02721875,"end":814.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.0734687500001,"end":808.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":808.1072187500001,"end":808.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":808.73159375,"end":808.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":813.92909375,"end":814.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":814.9753437500001,"end":815.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":815.0090937500001,"end":815.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":815.02596875,"end":815.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":815.2790937500001,"end":815.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":815.9709687500001,"end":816.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":816.9497187500001,"end":816.9834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":816.9834687500002,"end":823.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.03721875,"end":828.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.29846875,"end":827.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":828.12096875,"end":829.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":829.13346875,"end":830.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.3147187500001,"end":830.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":831.0403437500001,"end":833.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":834.60096875,"end":835.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":834.90471875,"end":836.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":835.6472187500001,"end":837.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.85784375,"end":837.9422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":837.9422187500002,"end":837.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.99284375,"end":844.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":838.0265937500001,"end":839.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":840.10221875,"end":840.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.02971875,"end":845.9578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.1984687500001,"end":845.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.0928437500002,"end":847.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":847.96596875,"end":848.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.35409375,"end":848.4890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.4890937500002,"end":848.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.50596875,"end":848.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.55659375,"end":848.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.94471875,"end":855.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":856.53846875,"end":857.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":857.68596875,"end":859.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":860.03159375,"end":861.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":862.8328437500002,"end":863.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":865.1953437500001,"end":866.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":866.4778437500001,"end":868.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":869.2622187500001,"end":871.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":871.62471875,"end":874.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":874.81409375,"end":877.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":877.90221875,"end":880.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":881.1084687500002,"end":882.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.4922187500001,"end":884.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":882.5090937500001,"end":882.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":883.01534375,"end":883.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.4834687500002,"end":884.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":884.51721875,"end":884.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.82096875,"end":887.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.61784375,"end":888.9890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":888.9890937500002,"end":889.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.34346875,"end":889.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":889.47846875,"end":894.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.5122187500001,"end":890.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":895.24971875,"end":897.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":897.57846875,"end":899.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.18596875,"end":898.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":900.3628437500001,"end":902.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":903.1472187500001,"end":906.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":904.95284375,"end":906.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":906.9778437500001,"end":906.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":906.99471875,"end":907.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.01159375,"end":907.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":907.58534375,"end":907.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.61909375,"end":907.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":907.73721875,"end":908.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.87221875,"end":909.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":909.39096875,"end":912.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":910.65659375,"end":913.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":913.0022187500001,"end":913.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":914.75721875,"end":917.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":917.84534375,"end":920.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":921.33846875,"end":924.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":924.8147187500001,"end":926.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":927.0759687500001,"end":927.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":928.3247187500001,"end":929.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":930.19784375,"end":932.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":933.5053437500001,"end":941.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":941.8247187500001,"end":947.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":942.5165937500001,"end":949.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":949.51971875,"end":951.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":949.5534687500001,"end":950.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":951.6628437500001,"end":953.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":954.1772187500001,"end":955.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":956.3372187500001,"end":956.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":956.9109687500002,"end":958.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":958.95284375,"end":961.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":961.28159375,"end":963.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":989.83409375,"end":990.7959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":992.6184687500001,"end":993.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":993.93471875,"end":998.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1005.9834687500002,"end":1006.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1007.5190937500001,"end":1009.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1009.42596875,"end":1011.09659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.091,"end":0.255,"text":"海委員質詢"},{"start":44.852,"end":68.298,"text":"請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長及經濟部長備選常務委員好委員好一定保定好我們最近這三年已經漲了四次電價"},{"start":70.472,"end":97.888,"text":"我相信以你們這麼接地氣應該接到很多人民、民間跟企業的聲音現在是連台積電剛剛在談因為台積電在法說會上面都埋怨了結果你們剛剛還在爭辯我們看一下台積電怎麼說來台積電是在法說會喔在這說台灣的電價三年漲了四次他們每度電的電費增加多少將近一倍"},{"start":99.278,"end":99.358,"text":"。（10月29日（。 三"},{"start":128.581,"end":129.101,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":158.843,"end":158.983,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":189.025,"end":200.615,"text":"你們每次都拿南韓來比我跟你講南韓現在最新的你只看到人家漲電價人家為了要把電價降下來人家最近要重啟10個新的核能的反應爐"},{"start":202.13,"end":218.123,"text":"現在核電一度就是1.1、1.13啊,人家都在做努力啊,其實我們現在不是,我們現在看到什麼,你們把最便宜的核電停掉了,然後去買了很多的再生能,真的可以爭取啊,可以做啊,問題你們買的都很貴,現在產生弊案啊,現在電價會產生這個問題,包括台積電會埋怨,是這兩個大的問題,好來,現在更重要的。"},{"start":224.264,"end":251.661,"text":"因為院長跟部長應該都很跟得上時代潮流啊你們要有國際觀啊去看看人家新科技跟國際的大廠怎麼做為了打造AI智慧島這是你們的理想嘛對不對信誓旦旦跟人民講結果你沒有發現我們現在電力不足夠所以台灣你一賣就沒辦法設這個AI了然後你看國際怎麼做來你這裡你看看Google啊說因為AI訓練太耗電了"},{"start":253.015,"end":270.702,"text":"谷果去買了7座的核能反應爐買了7座的核能反應爐然後呢?微軟你看微軟要用哪邊的核電?院長,我們從小就...美國發生山梨島事件的災變嘛對不對?"},{"start":273.615,"end":299.471,"text":"微軟用的是山梨島要重啟的核電所以你們一直在讓人覺得很恐慌說核電多危險核電沒辦法處理全世界先進國家發生311核災的日本現在都重啟核電美國連山梨島這個地方都要重啟要供應給微軟好你剛說你對我們這個國際大廠要來台灣有信心最可能的就是灰島嘛對不對"},{"start":301.068,"end":324.37,"text":"黃澄清他講我願意回台灣阿可是第一個我要一百億度電的綠電阿我們可以給他阿博定你保險你當時要給他一百億度的綠電的那個綠電我們當然他只要他開出條件我們就可以做阿那台灣現在博定你知道阿你怎麼這樣亂贏弱勒你台灣現在的綠電有多少"},{"start":326.34,"end":329.423,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告"},{"start":345.905,"end":345.925,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":362.55,"end":384.484,"text":"開關開起來就有了這個是要創電那綠電基本上它有幾個綠電可能就是風力、太陽光電、地熱、氫能轉換然後稀有的燃燒可以去探捕捉的都可以形成零碳保定保定你怎麼說要提醒你要緊嚴慎行"},{"start":386.195,"end":403.272,"text":"我們通常 通常 你是很好 你很有創意 不過我跟你講你這個很不切合實際 到目前為止整個國家發展這麼久就是200億度的這個綠電 結果你一下說引漏人家100億 沒有沒有啦 保定 去努力啦 你回去 保定過去到現在齁 不是我做保定啦"},{"start":404.252,"end":419.578,"text":"所以你不可以把過去的這個這個選擇 本人 本人現在正在直播 全民都在看你講話你下了清明狀 你開口了一百一度電的綠電給 只要他來 就看你什麼時候給了他 OK來來來 跟委員報告"},{"start":422.099,"end":444.079,"text":"我們現在的綠電的比例但16%左右百分之16左右我們預計到2030年我們綠電要生長到成長到百分之30%就是我們要加倍的增長我們來一個簡單的方式都是有應該是共同來促進這個事情而不是現在就認為說一定做不到我想回到各個你們縣市區委員也在爭取"},{"start":444.699,"end":471.925,"text":"加以多設一些科技園區我們就需要更多的電還好我們有這麼多的綠電否則這個世界大廠要來這裡基本的條件都達不到聽了他們願意來那個院長我們來一個做一個最簡單的數學題大概國小程度啦過去的八年蔡政府政府增加了多少的再生能源5.1%嘛被你5.1%我問你數學題嘛那你說未來的兩未來的兩年你沒有達到20%增加10%"},{"start":473.058,"end":502.22,"text":"這可不可能達得到,你們回去算一下,我不要答案,你們算,說全國民眾水準都很高,算一下就知道你在講天荒業。AI的進步也不是數學題,它是幾何題,我們也有可能用幾何能力來完成,現在我們極力在推。那共同努力嘛,來來,我們共同想辦法好不好,來來,我們想一個辦法。現在核市場一直丟在那裡,我們剛剛講,我們剛剛講了Google,講了微軟,一定,來一定你喜歡嗎這個事情,有沒有考慮,你剛剛講再生能源啊,"},{"start":502.864,"end":508.11,"text":"現在大家捨棄了RE100現在都在追求什麼CFE就是所謂的無碳電力"},{"start":522.193,"end":522.934,"text":"你知道嗎?"},{"start":522.934,"end":542.832,"text":"知道那裡面要強調的都是包括核能在裡面好啦沒關係來來我先做我的建議 兩個不同的組織嘛來議員你先聽一下 兩個不同的組織委員你的前提要對我們才能推論你把核電當作綠電那這個推論下去就會產生變差現在全世界包括E100的一些創辦這些大的企業現在都跑去CFE啦你們沒有跟上時代嗎?"},{"start":549.309,"end":549.79,"text":"你寫出來是示意"},{"start":564.813,"end":566.854,"text":"新北市的居民問一下新北市政府"},{"start":593.036,"end":621.077,"text":"總監你可以問問,你要促成,你是行政院長,你要讓我們的台積電,讓我們的能源,我們請努力啦,院長,我們至少有四個優點,來來,第一個我跟你講,第一個,你的核廢料,跟核二端的這個處理,如果台積電是認了之後,他可以幫忙處理這個問題,第二更重要的,台積電本來說電沒搞對不對,他就有足夠的電啊,第三個,你也不要再花錢去維護,這四個就省起來對不對,而且你會把副資產,"},{"start":622.403,"end":622.523,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":632.056,"end":658.944,"text":"你要匯掉核市要花3000億喔委員我第一個我同意我們如何來處理核市場的問題但是把核市場當作一個可以再重新讓它發電的核電廠我認為是一個不切實際的這個不切實際不僅來自於我們的現在的狀況對於新北市的市民對於新北市政府來看都是一個非常遙不可及的道路委員如果有這個創意委員有一個創意可以去問問看你看看Google看看微軟怎麼做"},{"start":659.793,"end":683.606,"text":"微軟都可以去用美國森林島的核電啊為什麼核市場現在放在那邊為什麼不能處理啊來我跟你談更重要的一個問題健康的問題議長你這個報告的第三頁啊你今天報告的第三頁啊你說到10月22號你看一下台電的這個發電啊這個結構是燃煤"},{"start":686.687,"end":714.059,"text":"三十三點二趴（燃氣（四十九點五趴（再生能源（十六點零趴（十六零我給大家看一下（你看一下這個圖（看一下這個圖（這個圖的右上角的時間點（就是你剛提的（十月二十二號（凌晨（五點四十（你知道嗎（你報告裡面的十六趴（的再生能源（是零（"},{"start":714.855,"end":723.6,"text":"因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。 因為太陽還沒有出來啊。"},{"start":724.397,"end":748.61,"text":"我們有說過 太陽能供電雖然要做可是它是不穩定的我們也說過再生能源有間歇性所以要靠其他的橋接來補救所以你要儲能嘛儲能一度電要多少跟大家報告一度電要7塊錢成本是高的 院長我更重要提醒你大家聽我講這個牽扯到人民健康一定我們很多人那時候五六點都起來運動了嘛 對不對"},{"start":750.629,"end":769.686,"text":"你在你講的這個時間點10月22日的凌晨全台灣有多少人在運動準備去上班特別在運動的都變成大型的人體空氣清淨機了這樣行政院對得起人民嗎但是我們的燃煤已經降到很低降到三分之一囉燃氣它是低碳的喔院長"},{"start":770.845,"end":770.865,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":799.011,"end":803.196,"text":"委員長的講法嚴重的誤導嚴重這樣講話嚴重的誤導院長我們再講一個地緣關係不能說這樣代表大家就是人體空氣清淨區"},{"start":817.191,"end":833.294,"text":"委政者是不是有責任保護人民的健康?一定有責任講實話講實話,院長所以你怎麼樣?繼續讓人民當這個清淨的這個沒有,你這樣子指控你清淨的雞巴?沒有,沒有辦法這樣子指控他問你一個安全問題兩岸的關係,你等於畫抗中保台嘛,對不對?"},{"start":834.619,"end":835.319,"text":"一年到一年半"},{"start":865.233,"end":865.253,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":888.789,"end":890.871,"text":"指令法公約五十六條之一明定"},{"start":917.898,"end":919.6,"text":"全世界都要返回核能"},{"start":933.547,"end":948.136,"text":"只要民進黨政府現在行政法院還抱著,還意識形態,你還在反對核電,你就看看法國、芬蘭、日本跟美國的這個個案。我給你看一個圖,你看一下我們現在的圖,來,我們看下一個圖,時間有限,你看一下,這個圖裡面深藍色跟淺藍啊,都是正在用核電,而且還繼續增加的。"},{"start":958.973,"end":959.093,"text":"主席"},{"start":995.005,"end":1010.444,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝張旗桿委員,謝謝卓院長及各部會所長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第五號,邱毅英委員質詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時26分）謝謝主席，請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長及經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：院長跟部長好。我們最近這三年已經漲了4次電價，我相信以你們這麼接地氣，應該接到很多人民、民間跟企業的聲音，現在是連台積電……剛剛在談，台積電在法說會上面都埋怨了，結果你們剛剛還在爭辯，我們看一下台積電怎麼說，來！台積電是在法說會喔！他說臺灣的電價三年漲了4次，他們每度電的電費增加多少？將近一倍，而且已經是他全球所有廠區裡面最高的。大家都知道，台積電在美國、在日本、在德國、在中國大陸都有，剛剛部長有解釋，不管別的國家用什麼水力發電那一些，就是臺灣現在的發電讓他負擔是最重的，這會出現兩個很大的問題。","第一個，我們的護國神山，現在每個縣市都說你來這邊建廠，要擴廠，結果你的電價這麼貴，他怎麼去？這是一個。第二個，你吃掉他多少利潤？毛利率的1%喔！他一年賺的錢雖然很多，可是因為你的電價，吃掉了人家100億。院長，我們的護國神山因為你們一直調電價，事實上已經發生2個副作用了，各個縣市每次都跟你爭取說幫忙啊！幫忙啊！請護國神山來這邊建廠、擴廠，對不對？這個你就沒辦法點頭了，所以這是一個大問題。第二個，你會不會擔心？因為我們的競爭力越來越低啊！你剛剛說不擔心我們的護國神山出走，對不對？可是投資會不會減少？不至於是嗎？這是不是很大的一個衝擊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們以鄰近的、競爭力相同的國家韓國來看，我們的電的成本還是比他低的。另外，……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們真人不說假話啦！剛剛為什麼特別提到？你們每次都拿南韓來比，我跟你講南韓現在最新的，你只看到人家漲電價，人家為了要把電價降下來，人家最近要重啟10個新的核能反應爐，現在核電一度就是1.13啊！人家都在做努力，結果我們現在不是，我們現在看到什麼？你把最便宜的核電停掉了，然後去買了很多的再生能源，再生能源可以爭取、可以做，問題是你們買的都很貴，現在產生弊案啊！現在電價會產生這個問題，包括台積電會埋怨，是這兩個大的問題。","現在更重要的，院長跟部長應該都很跟得上時代潮流啊！你們要有國際觀啊！去看看人家新科技跟國際的大廠怎麼做，為了打造AI智慧島，這是你們的理想，對不對？信誓旦旦跟人民講，結果你有沒有發現我們現在電力不足夠，說桃園以北就沒辦法設AI了。然後你看國際怎麼做，院長，你看一下，Google說因為AI訓練太耗電了，Google去買了7座的核能反應爐，然後你看微軟，它要用哪邊的核電？院長，我們從小讀書的時候就有看到，美國發生過三哩島事件的災變對不對？微軟用的是三哩島要重啟的核電，所以你們一直在讓人民覺得很恐慌，覺得核電多危險、核廢料沒有辦法處理。全世界先進國家、發生過311核災的日本，現在都重啟核電；美國連三哩島這個地方都要重啟，要供電給微軟。你剛剛說，你對國際大廠來臺灣有信心，最可能的就是輝達，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不只喔！"],["張委員啓楷：黃仁勳怎麼講的？我願意回臺灣啊！可是第一個，我要100億度的綠電。"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以給它。"],["張委員啓楷：部長可以保證？你什麼時候可以給它100億度的綠電？"],["郭部長智輝：只要它開出條件，我們就可以做啊！"],["張委員啓楷：我們臺灣現在……部長你怎麼這樣亂允諾呢？你知不知道臺灣現在的綠電有多少？200億度左右而已耶！他開口要你的二分之一，這些綠電幾乎都被台積電買走了， 你現在……部長、部長，你要把事情弄清楚，你不要亂允諾啊！什麼時候可以做到？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：你下了軍令狀，但你什麼時候可以給輝達100億度的綠電？什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：它不會現在就要100億度電。我跟委員報告，因為我們都有跟世界大廠在互動，我們都瞭解它什麼時候需要多少電，但是電不是開關開起來就有的，這個是要創電嘛！綠電基本上有幾個，綠電可能就是風力、太陽光電、地熱、氫能轉換，然後是既有的這個燃燒可以去碳捕捉的，都可以形成零碳。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你曾經要我提醒你要謹言慎行……"],["郭部長智輝：我們通常做一做……"],["張委員啓楷：你是很有創意，不過我跟你講，你這樣很不切合實際。到目前為止，整個國家發展這麼久，就是200億度的綠電，結果你一下就允諾人家100億。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，過去到現在……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你回去努力啦！部長……"],["郭部長智輝：過去到現在不是我在當部長，所以你不能把過去的成績，用來比照在我身上。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在都在直播，全民都在看你講話。你下了軍令狀，你開口要把100億度的綠電給輝達……"],["郭部長智輝：只要它來、它要求，我就可以給它。"],["張委員啓楷：好，就看你什麼時候可以給它。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們現在綠電的比例占16%左右，預計到2030年綠電會成長到30%，也就是說我們會加倍地成長，相關的路徑及方式我們都有。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們算一下簡單的數學題。"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是共同來促進這個事情，而不是現在就認為一定做不到。我想回到各個縣市去，委員也在為嘉義爭取多設一些科技園區，我們就需要更多的電，還好我們有這麼多的綠電，否則世界大廠要來這裡，基本的條例都達不到，現在他們願意來。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們來做一個最簡單的數學題，大概就是國小程度的啦！過去8年蔡政府增加了多少的再生能源？5.1%嘛！8年5.1%，我問你數學題，你說未來2年要達到20%，也就是增加10%，這可不可能達得到？你們回去算一下，我不要答案，全國民眾水準都很高，算一下就知道你在講天方夜談。"],["卓院長榮泰：AI的進步也不是數學題，它是幾何題，我們也有可能用幾何能力來完成，現在我們極力在推。"],["張委員啓楷：要共同努力嘛！我們共同想辦法好不好？來，我們來想一個辦法。現在核四廠一直丟在那裡，我們剛剛講了Google、講了微軟，院長，你想想看這件事情，有沒有考慮……你剛剛講了再生能源、綠電，但核電也是綠電啊！"],["郭部長智輝：核電不是綠電，核電是潔淨能源。"],["卓院長榮泰：核電不是綠電喔！"],["張委員啓楷：現在我先跟大家講一下，現在大家捨棄了RE100，現在都在追求什麼？CFE，就是所謂的「無碳電力」，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：知道。"],["張委員啓楷：裡面強調的都有包括核能在其中。"],["郭部長智輝：這是兩個不同的組織……"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，沒關係，我先說我的建議。院長你先聽一下……"],["郭部長智輝：是兩個不同的組織……"],["張委員啓楷：核四廠丟在……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你的前提、問題要對，我們才能推論，你把核電當作綠電，這個推論下去就會產生偏差。"],["張委員啓楷：現在全世界，包括創辦RE100創辦的這些大企業……"],["卓院長榮泰：它是一個低碳的潔淨能源。"],["張委員啓楷：現在都跑去CFE了，你們沒有跟上時代嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你覺得大廠買綠電還是買核電……"],["張委員啓楷：他們願意用核電，好不好？來，院長，我先問你一下，現在核四廠你就把它擺在那邊，對不對？你知道一年要多少維護費？"],["卓院長榮泰：你寫出來是4億。"],["張委員啓楷：一年4億，要嘛你就廢掉，要嘛就用啊，你現在最不理想的是什麼？你就把它丟在那裡嘛！這是不是最不理想的狀況？每一年花4億。剛才講到台積電，它已經講它的電不夠用了，電費又太貴，有一個最便宜的電在那裡，有沒有考慮？可以考慮啊！很多民眾在建議，雙贏啊！至少有四個優點……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你要不要問一下新北市的居民？問一下新北市政府？"],["張委員啓楷：當然，你可以去問，你要促成，欸！你是行政院長，你要讓我們的台積電、讓我們的能源夠……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的構想，委員先去問啊！"],["張委員啓楷：我們一起努力啦，院長，至少有四個優點……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的構想，委員先去問啦！"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，第一個，你的核廢料跟核後端的處理，如果台積電去認養之後，它可以幫忙處理這個問題。第二個，更重要的，台積電本來說電不夠，對不對？它就有足夠的電。第三個，你也不要再花錢去維護，這4億就省起來了，對不對？而且你會把負資產變成收入。另外一個考慮，如果你覺得台積電去認養不好，台電自己趕快啊，核四廠你丟在那邊，你要廢掉核四要花3,000億喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，第一個，我同意我們如何來處理核四廠的問題，但是把核四廠當作一個可以再重新讓它發電的核電廠，我認為是不切實際的，這個不切實際不僅來自於我們現在的狀況，對於新北市的市民、對於新北市政府來看，都是一個非常遙不可及的道路。委員，如果有這個創意……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，跟上世界潮流，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，有這個創意可以去問問看。"],["張委員啓楷：你看看Google、看看微軟怎麼做，微軟都可以去用美國三哩島的核電，核四廠現在放在那邊，為什麼不能處理？","來，我跟你談更重要的一個問題──健康的問題。院長，你今天報告的第3頁說到10月22號，你看一下，台電的發電結構是燃煤33.2%、燃氣49.5%、再生能源16.0%。我給大家看一下，你看一下這個圖，這個圖右上角的時間點就是你剛剛提的10月22號凌晨5點40分，你知道嗎？你報告裡面的16%的再生能源是零……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為太陽還沒有出來啊，因為太陽還沒有出來啊！"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，太陽沒出來，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，風也不見了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這顯示什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有說過它有間歇性。"],["張委員啓楷：太陽能光電雖然要做，可是它是不穩定的。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們也說過再生能源有間歇性，所以要靠其他的橋接來補救。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你要儲能，儲能一度要多少？跟大家報告，一度電要7塊錢，成本是高的。院長，更重要的要提醒你，大家聽我講，這個牽扯到人民健康，院長，我們很多人五、六點那時候都起來運動了，對不對？在你講的這個時間點，10月22號的凌晨，全臺灣有多少人在運動？準備去上班，特別在運動的，都變成大型的人體空氣清淨機了，這樣行政院對得起人民嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們的燃煤已經降到很低，降到三分之一囉，燃氣它是低碳的喔，有火力發電……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，這個時間點，台電的資料全部都是火力發電，就是燃煤跟燃氣98.15%……"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣會誤解、這樣會誤導，火力發電當然有燃煤跟燃氣，火力發電是燃煤和燃氣。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，所以你的再生能源16%不見了。"],["卓院長榮泰：超過一半以上是燃氣。"],["張委員啓楷：都不見了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們沒有用……"],["張委員啓楷：再生能源16%全部都不見了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：就是在那個瞬間。"],["張委員啓楷：這個時候，全臺灣人出去運動的全部變成人體空氣清淨機，怎麼對得起人民？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這樣的講法嚴重誤導，這樣的講法嚴重誤導。"],["郭部長智輝：這個要看空氣本身到底……發電有多少碳，不能說這樣就代表大家就是人體空氣清淨機。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們再講一個地緣關係。火力發電比起再生能源是污染嘛！你們為政者是不是有責任保護人民的健康？院長，我先問你另外一個問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有責任講實話。"],["張委員啓楷：講實話，院長，所以你要怎麼樣？繼續讓人民當清淨機嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，你這樣子指控，你沒有辦法這樣子指控！"],["張委員啓楷：我再問你一個安全問題，兩岸的關係，你一直在喊抗中保臺，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我何時……誰天天喊抗中保臺？"],["張委員啓楷：你沒有要抗中保臺？你有沒有要保護臺灣？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們保護自己的主權跟自己的安全。"],["張委員啓楷：你有沒有保臺？有嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：你不保臺嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你連抗中保臺都否認喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：你不保臺嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：我們一起啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！那……"],["張委員啓楷：我說你要怎麼落實？你不要只是喊，結果弄到後來是抗中不保臺！來，你來看一下，燃料棒一支可以使用多久？進去反應爐之後的燃料棒，一支是1年到1年半；天然氣的部分，我知道中油非常努力，我也問過幾次，是7到14天，有時候可以增加到15天，可是要怎麼再增加？這樣很容易就到極限，一個1年到1年半，一個7到14天，你選擇的竟然是7到14天。第二個，天然氣只能海運，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：燃料棒使用之後要放多久？"],["張委員啓楷：蛤？"],["卓院長榮泰：燃料棒使用之後，拿出來要放多久？"],["張委員啓楷：拿出來放多久……"],["卓院長榮泰：要放在哪裡？"],["張委員啓楷：放到現在的儲存槽啊！我到核三廠去看過，現在我們的燃料棒都還可以放5年啊！院長，你一直有個盲點，全世界大家都在用核電，而且人家都不煩惱核廢料，為什麼你一直要恐嚇人民？"],["卓院長榮泰：是你在恐嚇人民，我沒有啊！"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啊！你恐嚇人民啊！你說沒辦法處理，但全世界都在用啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：你從剛剛一直在恐嚇人民喔！"],["張委員啓楷：好，我再提醒你一點，日內瓦公約第五十六條之一明定，戰爭的時候，包括兩岸如果真的打起來，禁止攻擊民用核電廠跟水庫，對不對？所以核電廠也是安全的，是不是這樣？","好，我做一個簡單的總結，全世界都要返回核能，只有民進黨政府現在還抱著神主牌、還意識形態、還在反對核能，你看法國、芬蘭、日本跟美國的個案，我給你看一個圖……"],["卓院長榮泰：非核家園是現在我們的法律規定……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你看一下這個圖、你看一下維基百科的圖。來，我們看下一個圖。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在的法律就是邁向非核家園。"],["張委員啓楷：時間有限，你看一下，這個圖裡面的深藍跟淺藍色都是正在用核電的地區，而且還繼續增加，只有一個地方是紅色的，那就是臺灣，因為民進黨的意識形態。","最後我再提一個點，你一直在講民意，對不對？天下雜誌剛剛做了一個最新民調，近7成民眾支持繼續用核電。你們不是最重視民意嗎？這個就是最新民意，請尊重民意，並注意世界的潮流，當大家都在用的時候，不要去恐嚇人民，全世界先進國家都在用，為什麼臺灣不能用？更重要的是，我們需要穩定且低廉的價格。好，一起努力，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們依法行政。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員、謝謝卓院長及各部會首長的備詢。","接下來請登記第5號邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34a8ad5e1d266fb3256e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63e12974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:09:16 - 10:25:30","影片長度":"00:16:14","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T10:09:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T10:25:30+08:00","duration":974,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.23346875,"end":3.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.6590937500000003,"end":4.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.68846875,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.98784375,"end":7.000343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.94096875,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.63159375,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.57659375,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.242843750000002,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.78284375,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.20471875,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.416593750000004,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.01096875,"end":74.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.10784375,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.33096875000001,"end":79.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.93409375,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.14034375,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.86096875000001,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.80159375000001,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.47659375,"end":93.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.94034375000001,"end":98.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.46284375,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.30596875,"end":119.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.65784375000001,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.25096875,"end":132.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.82034375,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.91721875000002,"end":134.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.40221875,"end":140.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.16096875,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.37159375000002,"end":148.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.73346875000001,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.19721875000002,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.72846875000002,"end":202.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.01096875000002,"end":155.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.17346875,"end":169.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.45909375000002,"end":204.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.75846875000002,"end":208.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.77034375000002,"end":212.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.95971875,"end":216.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.64284375000003,"end":217.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.80721875,"end":217.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.34721875000002,"end":223.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.49471875,"end":221.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.86096875,"end":228.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.00784375,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.96971875000003,"end":232.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.24346875,"end":240.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.00596875000002,"end":241.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.08596875,"end":246.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.70971875,"end":258.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.55596875000003,"end":263.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.78284375000004,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.96846875,"end":267.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.61784375,"end":270.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.02659375,"end":273.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.63409375000003,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.25409375000004,"end":273.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.47346875,"end":273.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.50721875,"end":273.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.52409375,"end":273.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.62534375,"end":273.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.92471875,"end":275.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.05534375,"end":276.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.20284375,"end":281.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.55659375,"end":282.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.77596875,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.97409375,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.44221875,"end":286.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.04096875,"end":289.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.42034375000003,"end":293.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.01096875,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.99346875000003,"end":296.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.05221875,"end":298.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.49471875,"end":304.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.45596875,"end":304.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.72596875,"end":305.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.63721875000005,"end":305.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.80596875000003,"end":305.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.82284375,"end":305.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.97471875,"end":337.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.76284375,"end":352.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.89159375,"end":356.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.47721875,"end":364.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.58159375,"end":365.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.03284375000004,"end":369.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.06596875,"end":373.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.57596875,"end":377.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.28846875000005,"end":377.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.43596875000003,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.58346875,"end":382.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.61659375000005,"end":387.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.68346875000003,"end":390.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.29471875,"end":394.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.14221875000004,"end":397.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.50471875000005,"end":398.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.75346875,"end":401.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.14534375000005,"end":405.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.35159375,"end":408.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.91221875,"end":413.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.62034375,"end":421.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.60221875,"end":428.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.43221875,"end":432.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.25034375,"end":434.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.08534375000005,"end":438.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.56159375000004,"end":439.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.94534375,"end":449.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.24409375000005,"end":446.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.53471875,"end":449.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.01971875000004,"end":453.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.27659375,"end":459.45284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.22096875000005,"end":460.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.63409375000003,"end":467.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.31659375000004,"end":470.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.26971875000004,"end":475.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.84284375000004,"end":480.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.54721875,"end":480.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.66471875,"end":482.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":482.95971875000004,"end":484.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":484.57971875000004,"end":488.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.74346875000003,"end":492.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":492.64596875,"end":496.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.30346875000004,"end":499.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.93596875000003,"end":504.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.61034375,"end":508.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.04846875000004,"end":510.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":510.98909375000005,"end":514.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.8703437500001,"end":516.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.4734687499999,"end":522.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.56534375,"end":527.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.50971875,"end":564.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.9722187500001,"end":569.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.11909375,"end":575.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.73846875,"end":577.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.79721875,"end":580.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.17221875,"end":581.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.8303437500001,"end":582.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":582.9609687500001,"end":589.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":589.7109687500001,"end":594.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.5203437499999,"end":595.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.53284375,"end":597.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.6084687499999,"end":599.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.2578437500001,"end":604.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":605.23596875,"end":606.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.07534375,"end":607.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":608.6953437500001,"end":611.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":611.2097187500001,"end":613.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":613.70721875,"end":616.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":617.7065937500001,"end":618.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":618.29721875,"end":628.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":628.55721875,"end":632.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":633.5690937500001,"end":634.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":635.08784375,"end":638.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.01971875,"end":640.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.52159375,"end":642.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.37784375,"end":643.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.03159375,"end":647.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.38534375,"end":648.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.1784687500001,"end":658.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":656.97471875,"end":663.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.32409375,"end":668.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.49596875,"end":672.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.00596875,"end":676.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.7859687499999,"end":679.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.50284375,"end":681.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.3547187500001,"end":682.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":682.9622187500001,"end":684.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.70034375,"end":684.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":684.71721875,"end":685.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":686.0334687500001,"end":690.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.5053437500001,"end":694.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":691.60221875,"end":694.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":694.40346875,"end":696.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.68159375,"end":698.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":697.6940937500001,"end":707.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.2453437500001,"end":708.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.8484687499999,"end":712.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":712.71284375,"end":713.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":713.9953437500001,"end":715.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":715.2947187500001,"end":724.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.57284375,"end":718.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":725.6728437500001,"end":736.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.2409687500001,"end":736.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":737.3503437500001,"end":740.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":741.19784375,"end":746.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":746.6653437500001,"end":747.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":746.88471875,"end":760.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.3172187499999,"end":760.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":760.35096875,"end":760.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.1609687499999,"end":764.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":762.1397187500002,"end":762.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":764.02971875,"end":768.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.25284375,"end":767.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.97846875,"end":768.0459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":768.0459687500002,"end":768.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":769.6828437500001,"end":777.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":778.05284375,"end":779.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":780.5672187499999,"end":781.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":781.6640937500001,"end":782.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":782.9465937500001,"end":785.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.16596875,"end":783.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.9253437500001,"end":784.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":784.0265937500001,"end":784.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":786.35534375,"end":789.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.01721875,"end":792.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.71721875,"end":793.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":793.08846875,"end":797.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":797.62784375,"end":799.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":799.3828437500001,"end":804.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":804.63096875,"end":810.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.0478437500001,"end":810.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":810.55409375,"end":813.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.6172187500001,"end":819.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":814.80659375,"end":816.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":820.1728437500001,"end":825.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":823.32846875,"end":830.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":830.92221875,"end":835.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":831.93471875,"end":838.3640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":838.8872187500001,"end":840.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":841.1653437500001,"end":842.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":842.65034375,"end":844.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":845.3334687500001,"end":846.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":846.43034375,"end":858.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":858.3272187500002,"end":860.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":860.35221875,"end":867.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":862.61346875,"end":865.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":866.39346875,"end":868.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":867.37221875,"end":870.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":871.6415937500001,"end":872.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":873.97034375,"end":885.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":880.31534375,"end":892.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.97159375,"end":899.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":893.54534375,"end":893.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.60346875,"end":908.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":900.9197187500001,"end":902.9109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":906.15096875,"end":908.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":909.0534687500001,"end":914.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":914.45346875,"end":918.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":919.29659375,"end":921.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":954.00846875,"end":954.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":956.3203437500001,"end":957.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":961.87221875,"end":962.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":965.3484687500002,"end":969.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":971.15346875,"end":971.3728437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.287,"end":9.345,"text":"好謝謝主席我請我們院長還有經濟部長跟農業部長麻煩再請左院長兩位部長備詢"},{"start":17.838,"end":30.804,"text":"黃委員早院長早兩位部長早黃委員早院長部長先講一下剛才郭委員這幾次他都特別提到了有關於南電北送那我在這邊特別提供一個數據"},{"start":32.185,"end":46.736,"text":"市上六都的電力自給率是電電工會所統計計算出來的,六都裡面沒有錯,臺北市的自給率是最低,但是啊,包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%,"},{"start":50.058,"end":77.565,"text":"新北是87.4%而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據他有一些疑慮但是我特別提出來這是電電工會所計算出來的所以過去長期說南電北送南電北送這樣的概念事實上是有問題的好我想請教一下我們的陳部長"},{"start":78.405,"end":92.762,"text":"昨天去北檢,您是以證人身份還是以被告身份?我是因為去年有人提告我說有用被告身份所以你是以被告身份?是好,那麼我就請教院長"},{"start":93.973,"end":118.023,"text":"操司弊案之前有監察院提出來的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過5億元之多而且他現在對於農業部也提出來糾正而現在站在您旁邊的我們的農業部長昨天以被告身份被北檢傳喚所以院長我想請問一下"},{"start":119.764,"end":134.104,"text":"以現在的狀況,操司的弊案在北檢,現在在偵辦中,那麼是不是應該讓我們的陳部長停職來接受調查?請問院長。三點回覆,第一個,"},{"start":135.438,"end":149.198,"text":"被任何一個人告都可能成為被告被告不是自己選擇的這個身份是因為這樣所以您現在仍然信任陳部長第二個已經在法院系署當中那就應該讓他去充分的說明清楚這是第二點第三點"},{"start":151.241,"end":174.257,"text":"我們還是要回來談電、電、能源政策我晚上就會談所以你現在仍然背書陳部長我要告訴院長的是當時啊部長在之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書還說超思不是藝人公司還說超思沒有問題但是他現在以被告身份被調查我要特別講的"},{"start":175.037,"end":175.277,"text":"委員,我們"},{"start":204.83,"end":211.886,"text":"在政壇這麼多年你我都曾經被列為被告過只要有人告我們就是被告這不是起訴的問題"},{"start":213.101,"end":240.127,"text":"我是被你們潘孟安弄誹謗,跟部長的圖利完全不一樣,不要浪費我的時間。陳部長可以先請回。另外,你們的報告第一頁就談到了台積電。我想請問部長還有院長,因為下個禮拜就是美國大選,當然它會影響國際非常非常的嚴重。"},{"start":241.047,"end":266.695,"text":"那麼川普現在被認為他的當選機率非常高而他已經不止一次的直接公開指責台灣是偷走了美國的晶片的生意直指台灣是半寶體的小偷所以我想請問我先請問部長好了您同意川普這樣的說法嗎?川普的說法是他"},{"start":267.677,"end":267.898,"text":"主席"},{"start":274.946,"end":298.548,"text":"我當然不同意啊不同意?然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎?來挺我們台灣的半導體業嗎?他沒問我啊我怎麼去他沒有問你我現在問你啊你現在問我是問我說同不同意他這句話對!我們的半導體是小偷嗎?我們偷走日本國半導體的生意嗎?我現在回答你是我不同意啊你不同意?好!院長你同意嗎?"},{"start":299.649,"end":319.789,"text":"當然不同意這是我們自己發展出來一個非常領先世界的產業台灣多少的數十萬的半導體業者這樣的拼命讓台灣有品牌然後台灣成為一個全球半導體的支柱我非常遺憾為什麼我今天要用我現在的時間來問"},{"start":321.511,"end":337.687,"text":"因為我遺憾的是﹐川普不是第一次說﹐一說再說﹐如果他當選之後﹐那麼成為全世界的險學那還得了﹐絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒台灣半導體業者的一個工作和努力﹐兩位同意吧﹐"},{"start":338.974,"end":363.501,"text":"報告委員我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展尤其是美國的這個民主的大選我相信他是一個民主成熟的國家未來台美關係一定是在現在基礎上我們努力讓他更深化更發展其實我們有很多問題啦真的我現在不要浪費我時間那我要另外請教美國的國會議員Vance他就是這個川普的副總統的候選人"},{"start":364.616,"end":375.266,"text":"他最近說他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話臺灣更重要因為臺灣有半導體業"},{"start":378.479,"end":379.901,"text":"本院內政委員會報告"},{"start":398.88,"end":399.06,"text":"。（10月30日（。 三"},{"start":429.7,"end":456.35,"text":"剛剛我的報告裡面向大院提出報告能源的政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果那現在我們進行第二次能源轉型那至於未來是不是用到核電就看核能新技術它的發展的進階如何所以大家安全無虞沒有核廢料大家有共識所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話我是有條件將來核能技術新的技術發展"},{"start":457.45,"end":471.908,"text":"我剛剛在報告裡面提到了第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力的推動我知道院長講得非常含蓄你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話"},{"start":474.892,"end":487.3,"text":"我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒。其實就是國安問題,能源政策就是國安問題。好,我們來看一下,因為我們非常關心的就是有關於電價上漲的問題。"},{"start":489.77,"end":510.879,"text":"。（"},{"start":511.039,"end":520.963,"text":"二號合二廠的一號機開始除役之後（我們撐不住了（所以我們短短的幾年之內（我們四度的調漲了工業用電（而這個條幅（總共條幅高達66%之多（"},{"start":527.606,"end":537.169,"text":"所以我今天把我們和二廠一號機和二廠二號機和三廠一號機的它的除役的時間跟我們電價上漲的時間來做對比所以其實非常明顯的當核電廠逐漸除役之後台電的發電成本就節節的升高而使得我們挺不住了然後必須要調高電價"},{"start":554.534,"end":562.626,"text":"至於你們報告又用了錯誤的一個訊息其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長部長還沒有當部長的時候我就說我們調整電價說因為國際能源價格上漲錯"},{"start":570.197,"end":584.024,"text":"部長院長你知道嗎事實上早在今年的三四月的時候國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前對不對了解都已經回復了但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢剛才不院長也點頭我們為什麼還要漲價呢"},{"start":589.767,"end":616.55,"text":"因為臺電的發電成本節節上升所以我們馬上又面臨明年的5月份立刻要面臨核三廠二號機組要除役所以我想請問院長剛才也講了鄭崇華先生講他說其實錯誤的能源政策我們如果認為錯誤我們把它改過就好了"},{"start":618.386,"end":619.266,"text":"兩點答覆委員,第一個,我們剛剛講的是"},{"start":644.536,"end":663.4,"text":"凱電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲我們知道到2023年它是下來了我們現在是2021年我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料2021年之後連續兩年上漲都已經下來了你們還在漲什麼呢都已經回降下來撐都撐過去了你們還在漲什麼呢所以這兩年它有虧損啊我們現在在調整它的財務狀況這兩年它是有虧損的這個請委員能夠理解第二個你說到這個河山廠的問題"},{"start":673.035,"end":701.846,"text":"河山廠今天要研議他必須五年前就啟動這樣的研議的程序那現在沒有啟動你們修法改規定就好啦你們修法改規定就好啦河市場都都是已經通通都蓋好了那最後就沒有讓他商轉啦委員你是要我們改你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎你們現在行政權無限大啊委員你的意思是我們現在人家以前說啊立法國會除了不能生孩子之外什麼都可以做"},{"start":702.666,"end":724.301,"text":"現在行政部門,行政權力無限大,除了不能生孩子,什麼都可以做啊,不是嗎?委員的意思是我們要把五年拿掉,還是往後延五年?我只問你,合三場,是不是勢必要除役?我剛才講這個電價,為什麼?我擔心的是,按照這個趨勢,我都幫你把它做出來了。"},{"start":726.232,"end":740.088,"text":"電價上漲（台灣的電價上漲（不是隨著國際能源價格而波動（而是隨著核電廠廚藝（而一步一步的上漲（今年兩次（今年調兩次之多（"},{"start":741.289,"end":760.398,"text":"所以我想請問一下我擔心明年一除一又要大幅的上漲啊對不對報告委員我想我們的電價就是比其他的國家我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的這個韓國跟日本韓國也在上個月又漲了工業電價又漲了9.6%這個我們都是你有沒有聽台積電說韓國他也用台積電說"},{"start":770.381,"end":796.548,"text":"臺積電現在在日本設廠、美國設廠、在德國的設廠他說在他的各個的場區用電成本最高的就是臺灣臺積電說的為什麼呢?因為你們動不動臺電供電不足動不動就讓臺積電自己發電啊就讓臺積電自己發電而且我們現在很神奇的啊河二廠已經除役了對不對河二廠經常在供電"},{"start":797.868,"end":813.074,"text":"為什麼經常在供電?因為荷二廠的汽渦輪機組要供電,不然不夠啊!那你知道汽渦輪機組他供電的話,一度電多少錢?部長知道一度電多少錢嗎?現在喔,台積電的電價部分,你可不可以去問他說德國的電價是多少?"},{"start":820.81,"end":823.131,"text":"臺積電現在到新加坡都去爭財了現在大家講的日積電、美積電以後再講新積電"},{"start":846.991,"end":872.339,"text":"臺積電現在當然還臺灣可是慢慢日積電、美積電、新積電然後全部通通都到海外去了在海外增財在海外擴廠部長你覺得這樣很好嗎?我認為這個評估的因素不外乎有一個這麼小的變動因素在講政策的時候臺積電的電只佔到它的成本非常的低的"},{"start":874.702,"end":896.837,"text":"臺積電的如果說電很高他不可能他的營業利益可以高達58%你知道嗎臺積電說只要我們一度電上漲就侵蝕他多少成本嗎我們一個部長如始不時人間煙火委員我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心"},{"start":899.919,"end":921.305,"text":"雙手來歡迎他們我們也知道台積電會繼續在台灣做更多的建設政府會從各方面來協助來幫忙院長我在這邊真的很沉痛的說我們討論這麼多的能源政策我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤我們現在有三大的罪狀"},{"start":956.441,"end":967.949,"text":"二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日（。 三"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":175,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時9分）謝謝主席，我請院長，還有經濟部部長跟農業部部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、兩位部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長早，兩位部長早。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長、部長，我先講一下，郭委員這幾次都特別提到了南電北送，我在這邊特別提供一個數據，事實上六都的電力自給率是電電公會所統計計算出來的，六都裡面，沒有錯，臺北市的自給率最低，但包含桃園市的自給率是137.7%，新北是87.4%，而臺南市的供電自給率是20.2%。當然剛才郭國文委員對這個數據有一些疑慮，但我特別提出來這是電電公會所計算出來的，所以過去長期說南電北送、南電北送，這樣的概念事實上是有問題的。","我想請教陳部長，昨天去北檢，您是以證人身分還是以被告身分？"],["陳部長駿季：我是因為去年有人提告我，所以我用被告人身分……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你是以被告身分？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。那麼我就請教院長，關於超思弊案，之前監察院提出的報告說事實上讓政府浪費了超過五億元之多，現在它對於農業部也提出糾正，而站在您旁邊的農業部長，昨天以被告身分被北檢傳喚。所以院長，我想請問，以現在的狀況，超思弊案在北檢偵辦中，那麼是不是應該讓陳部長停職接受調查？"],["卓院長榮泰：三點回復，第一個，被任何一個人告都可能成為被告，被告不是自己選擇的，這個身分是因為這樣而定的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以您現在仍然信任陳部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：第二個，已經在法院繫屬當中，那就應該讓他去充分說明清楚。第三點，我們還是要回來談電……能源政策。"],["王委員鴻薇：我馬上就會談，所以你現在仍然背書陳部長！我要告訴院長的是，部長之前好幾次在立法院裡面也幫超思背書，還說超思不是一人公司……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["王委員鴻薇：還說超思沒有問題。但是他現在以被告身分被調查。我要特別講，那是在調查中的案子，他現在還有部長的身分，說實在的他可不可以輕易地去湮滅一些證據？所以我在這邊為什麼要問院長這個問題，既然大家高度關切，院長，如果你今天用這樣背書的一個態度的話，那麼未來你還是會被追究政治責任。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們在政壇這麼多年，您我都曾經被列為被告過，只要有人告，我們就是被告，這不是起訴的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：我是被你們潘孟安那個弄誹謗……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！我們都可能被列為被告。"],["王委員鴻薇：跟部長的圖利完全不一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：被告是不能選擇的身分。"],["王委員鴻薇：不要浪費我的時間，陳部長可以先請回。","另外，你們報告的第1頁就談到了台積電，那麼我想請問部長還有院長，下個禮拜就是美國大選，當然對國際的影響會非常非常地嚴重。川普現在被認為是當選機率非常高，而他已經不只一次地直接公開指責臺灣偷走了美國的晶片生意，直指臺灣是「半導體小偷」。","我先請問部長好了，您同意川普這樣的說法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：川普的說法，是他講的啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：當然是他講的。"],["郭部長智輝：那我就……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要講廢話了，你同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我當然不同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：不同意，然後你有正式發表過聲明嗎？來挺我們臺灣的半導體業嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他沒問我啊！我怎麼去……"],["王委員鴻薇：他沒有問你，我現在問你啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你現在問我，是問我同不同意他這句話嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：對！我們的半導體是小偷嗎？我們偷走了美國半導體的生意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我現在回答你的是我不同意啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：你不同意，好。","院長，你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不同意，這是我們自己發展出來的一個非常領先世界的產業。"],["王委員鴻薇：臺灣有多少的、數十萬的半導體業者這樣拚命，讓臺灣有品牌，然後臺灣成為全球半導體的支柱。我非常遺憾！為什麼今天要用我現在的時間來問，因為我遺憾的是，川普不是第一次說，一說再說！如果他當選之後，成為全世界的顯學，那還得了，絕對不能扼殺以及淹沒臺灣半導體業者的工作和努力。兩位同意吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們當然會持續關注各種情況的發展，尤其是美國的民主大選，我相信它是一個成熟的民主國家，未來臺美關係一定是在現在的基礎上，我們努力讓它更深化、更發展。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實我們有很多問題啦！真的，我現在不要浪費我的時間。","我要另外請教，美國國會議員范斯（Vance）正是川普的副總統候選人，他最近說，他質疑烏克蘭對於美國的戰略利益，他說如果以美國的戰略利益來說的話，臺灣更重要，因為臺灣有半導體業。我們要發展半導體、我們要發展AI，而我們的台達電創辦人鄭崇華先生在這兩天接受媒體採訪，他說如果臺灣要發展AI，非用核電不可，還說對於錯誤的政策就應該認錯，然後他也講了一句過去郝柏村院長講的：朝令如果有錯，夕改何妨？所以我想先請教院長，您同不同意台達電創辦人鄭崇華先生所說的話：我們一定要用核電不可，而且如果能源政策有錯，就承認，改過就好？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛我向大院提出報告，能源政策從第一次能源轉型已經達到它的效果，現在我們進行第二次能源轉型，至於未來是不是用到核電，就看核能新技術發展的進階如何，如果能夠達到安全無虞、沒有核廢料、大家有共識，我們當然願意討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以院長您同意鄭崇華先生所說的話？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是有條件，將來新的核能技術發展如果能夠達到大家有共識……"],["王委員鴻薇：那麼我們的能源政策有錯誤嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛在報告裡面提到了，第一次能源轉型已經達到了一定的目標，第二次能源轉型現在賴總統全力在推動。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我知道院長講得非常含蓄，你也不敢完全來駁鄭崇華先生所說的話，真的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們感謝大家對我們的能源政策提出任何的提醒，我們都感謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：能源政策其實就是國安問題！能源政策就是國安問題！","好，我們來看一下，因為我們非常關心的就是有關電價上漲的問題，你可以看到本席出示的這個曲線圖，在2021年7月核二廠1號機退役之前，事實上我們包含工業用電還有我們的民生用電都是沒有漲價的，即便實施了非核家園。可是等到核二廠1號機開始除役之後，我們撐不住了，所以短短幾年之內，4度調漲工業用電，而且調幅總共高達66%之多。所以我今天把核二廠1號機、核二廠2號機、核三廠1號機的除役時間跟我們電價上漲的時間做對比，非常明顯的，當核電廠逐漸除役之後，台電的發電成本就節節升高，使得我們挺不住而必須調高電價。可是你們的報告又用了一個錯誤的訊息，其實早在上一屆你還沒有當院長，部長也還沒有當部長的時候，我就說，我們調整電價說是因為國際能源價格上漲，錯！部長、院長，你們知道嗎？事實上早在今年三、四月的時候，國際能源價格就已經回復到俄烏戰爭之前，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：都已經回復了！但是我們為什麼還要漲價呢？","剛才院長也點頭，我們為什麼還要漲價呢？因為台電的發電成本節節上升。好，我們明年5月份立刻又要面臨核三廠2號機組除役，所以我想請問院長，剛才也講了，鄭崇華先生說，其實如果我們認為能源政策錯誤，把它改過就好了！包含童子賢先生講的核綠可以共生。關於核綠可以共生，你不要等到未來的核電生出來，現在的核電就可以共生。","所以我再非常沉痛地來問一下院長：核三廠全面除役是一條不能回頭的路嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，兩點答復委員，第一個，我們剛剛講的是台電的燃料成本從2021年之後的兩年上漲，我們知道到2023年它是下來了，我們這裡是2021年，我這裡沒有用錯誤的資料，2021年之後連續兩年上漲超過……"],["王委員鴻薇：這都已經回降下來了，你們還在漲什麼呢？都已經回降下來，撐都撐過去了，你們還在漲什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：這兩年它有虧損啊！我們現在在調整它的財務狀況，那兩年它是有虧損的，請委員能夠理解。第二個，你說到核三廠的問題，核三廠今天要延役，它必須5年前就啟動這樣延役的程序，現在沒有啟動，明年的……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們修法改規定就好啦！核四廠已經通通都蓋好了，最後就沒有讓它商轉了。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員你是要我們改不用5年前……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們知道你們現在行政權有多大嗎？你們現在行政權無限大啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你的意思是我們改……"],["王委員鴻薇：人家以前說立法、國會除了不能生孩子之外，什麼都可以做，現在行政部門行政權力無限大，除了不能生孩子，什麼都可以做啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。委員的意思是我們要把5年拿掉，還是往後延5年？"],["王委員鴻薇：我只問你核三廠是不是勢必要除役？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果照現在的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才講這個電價，為什麼？我擔心的是，按照這個趨勢，我都幫你把它做出來了，臺灣的電價上漲不是隨著國際能源價格而波動，而是隨著核電廠除役而一步一步的上漲……"],["卓院長榮泰：它還有其他因素。"],["王委員鴻薇：今年兩次，今年調兩次之多！所以我想請問一下，我擔心明年一除役，又要大幅的上漲啊，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的電價相比其他的國家，我們有跟我們在工業上面對抗的韓國跟日本相比，韓國也在上個月又漲了，工業電價又漲了9.6%，我們都是比他低的。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你有沒有聽台積電說？"],["郭部長智輝：韓國他也用核電啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：台積電現在在日本設廠、美國設廠，在德國也設廠嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：台積電說在它各個廠區，用電成本最高的就是臺灣，台積電說的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，最高的部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼呢？因為台電供電不足，動不動就讓台積電自己發電啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：而且我們現在很神奇的，核二廠已經除役了，對不對？核二廠經常在供電，為什麼經常在供電？因為核二廠的氣渦輪機組要供電，不然不夠啊！那麼你知道氣渦輪機組供電，一度電多少錢？部長知道一度電多少錢嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在台積電……"],["王委員鴻薇：回答我啊，你都不知道！"],["郭部長智輝：台積電的電價部分……"],["王委員鴻薇：不管台積電喔！"],["郭部長智輝：你可不可以去問它說德國的電價是多少？這不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：這是台積電說的啊，它用電的成本，臺灣最高啊！"],["郭部長智輝：它是現在在運作的，因為它在美國用的是水力發電，所以水力發電當然是比較便宜，條件不一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我今天還沒時間問你……"],["郭部長智輝：它在日本也是用……"],["王委員鴻薇：台積電現在都到新加坡去徵才了，現在大家講的日積電、美積電，以後再講新積電，台積電現在當然還臺灣，可是慢慢的，日積電、美積電、新積電，全部通通都到海外去了，在海外徵才、在海外擴廠，部長，你覺得這樣很好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為這個評估的因素不會只有一個這麼小的變動因素……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們第1頁就在講台積電，在講政策的時候……"],["郭部長智輝：台積電的電只占它的成本非常的低，如果電很高，台積電不可能它的營業利益可以高達58%，剛剛報告的，它的業績就有58%，賺的利益喔！"],["王委員鴻薇：你知道嗎？台積電說我們只要一度電上漲，就侵蝕它多少成本嗎？唉唷！我們一個部長如此不食人間煙火啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們不一樣的地方在於我們對於世界的大廠要來臺灣充滿了信心，也舉雙手來歡迎他們，我們也知道台積電會繼續在臺灣做更多的建設，政府會從各方面來協助、來幫忙。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剩最後一點時間。院長，我在這邊真的很沉痛的說，我們討論這麼多的能源政策，我們現在的能源政策為什麼鄭崇華先生會說是錯誤？我們現在有三大的罪狀、三大問題，第一，剛才講電價必須上漲；第二，要講缺電，事實上大家都覺得……連最近天下才作成的一個民調，七成民眾認為是缺電的；另外一個，就是納稅人不停的要撥補，台電從一家好的公司變成一個無底洞，讓我們納稅人不停的撥補。三大罪狀！所以兩位今天站在這邊……"],["主席：謝謝……"],["王委員鴻薇：站在歷史的關鍵上，不要成為罪人，非常重要，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，希望委員做出正確的結論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及經濟部長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽的是本院盧縣一委員邀請來自政治大學原住民資源中心的所有同學，熱烈歡迎大家。","再接下來我們請登記第4號張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34d09fc806d420948a6e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63ef7e81291b4dfc0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:52:52 - 10:09:11","影片長度":"00:16:19","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T09:52:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T10:09:11+08:00","duration":979,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.04909375,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.457843750000002,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.713468750000004,"end":35.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.75534375,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.72409375,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.90159375,"end":95.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.77971875,"end":106.57971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.61346875000001,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.47346875000001,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.22784375,"end":122.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.86409375000001,"end":128.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.70284375,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.07721875000001,"end":141.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.54034375,"end":145.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.40471875,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.64471875,"end":153.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.42471875,"end":159.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.57971875,"end":165.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.06409375,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.36721875,"end":171.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.56096875,"end":174.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.07534375,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.68659375000001,"end":180.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.36971875,"end":185.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.29284375,"end":188.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.18284375000002,"end":189.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.99284375000002,"end":191.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.96721875,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.21596875,"end":194.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.56596875000002,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.32096875000002,"end":197.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.68784375,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.03346875000003,"end":202.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.56034375000002,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.90096875,"end":213.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.20846875,"end":217.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.59596875000003,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":223.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.86096875,"end":228.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.02471875,"end":232.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.37846875000002,"end":235.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.87596875000003,"end":240.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.79471875000002,"end":251.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.16534375,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.44346875000002,"end":249.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.84409375,"end":252.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.41346875000002,"end":266.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.67284375,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.63846875,"end":276.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.05096875000004,"end":278.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.07596875,"end":284.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.81346875,"end":291.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.95159375000003,"end":296.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.06471875,"end":305.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.22784375000003,"end":307.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.64534375,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.70846875,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.24409375000005,"end":313.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.46721875000003,"end":317.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.87159375000005,"end":321.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.15784375000004,"end":325.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.20784375,"end":329.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.40971875,"end":331.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.11409375,"end":334.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.40909375,"end":334.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.21909375,"end":336.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.05846875000003,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.93096875000003,"end":348.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.27596875,"end":353.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.37659375000004,"end":355.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.07659375000003,"end":366.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.70346875,"end":372.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.23846875000004,"end":377.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.18284375,"end":380.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.33846875,"end":384.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.27471875000003,"end":386.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.65409375,"end":388.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.33721875000003,"end":394.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.95659375,"end":395.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.81284375,"end":398.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.90534375000004,"end":406.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.87034375,"end":410.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.27471875000003,"end":413.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.46409375,"end":419.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.26909375,"end":420.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.09596875000005,"end":423.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.13346875,"end":428.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.07784375,"end":432.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.75659375000004,"end":434.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.79846875000004,"end":436.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.31284375,"end":438.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.98346875000004,"end":444.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.85596875000005,"end":446.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.10034375000004,"end":449.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.20534375000005,"end":452.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.65221875000003,"end":453.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.83346875,"end":454.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.28471875,"end":456.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.70221875000004,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.54596875000004,"end":459.45284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.58784375000005,"end":461.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.52409375,"end":462.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.85721875,"end":466.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.83971875000003,"end":471.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.09659375,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.90159375,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.58909375,"end":481.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.03909375,"end":488.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.05596875000003,"end":488.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.68034375,"end":489.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.69284375,"end":491.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.73471875,"end":494.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.97471875,"end":496.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.08409375,"end":501.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.58534375000005,"end":510.04409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.34784375000004,"end":512.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.1997187500001,"end":513.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.29659375,"end":518.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.61659375,"end":525.0122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.7209687500001,"end":526.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.36221875,"end":527.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.93159375,"end":529.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.2265937500001,"end":534.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.08659375,"end":538.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.82846875,"end":542.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.64221875,"end":545.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.0047187499999,"end":549.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.95346875,"end":560.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.4497187500001,"end":561.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.77846875,"end":579.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.8728437500001,"end":593.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.0815937500001,"end":598.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.32971875,"end":602.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.6328437500001,"end":604.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.8603437500001,"end":610.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.5134687500001,"end":614.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.5678437500001,"end":615.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.8334687500001,"end":619.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.7947187500001,"end":622.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.27971875,"end":625.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.77284375,"end":634.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.50971875,"end":637.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.85534375,"end":639.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.0659687500001,"end":640.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.78721875,"end":643.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.17034375,"end":649.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.3640937499999,"end":649.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.41034375,"end":651.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.33846875,"end":653.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.20721875,"end":656.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.56971875,"end":657.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.15596875,"end":658.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.7465937500001,"end":661.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.5434687500001,"end":667.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.3022187500001,"end":668.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.93909375,"end":669.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.66471875,"end":671.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.9765937500001,"end":673.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.9340937500001,"end":677.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.56221875,"end":679.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.22846875,"end":683.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.0547187500001,"end":685.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.21909375,"end":688.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.88534375,"end":689.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.4040937500001,"end":691.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.9228437500001,"end":692.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.67784375,"end":694.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.80409375,"end":698.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.21284375,"end":700.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.40221875,"end":704.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.63784375,"end":716.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.91471875,"end":721.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.01159375,"end":718.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.7578437500001,"end":726.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.7822187500001,"end":729.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.68909375,"end":731.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.4778437500001,"end":732.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.92909375,"end":733.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.4140937500001,"end":735.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.4265937499999,"end":736.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.75971875,"end":739.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.1853437500001,"end":740.9109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.26534375,"end":741.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.1259687500001,"end":746.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.3784687500001,"end":748.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.4115937500001,"end":750.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.4284687500001,"end":750.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.79971875,"end":754.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.03534375,"end":755.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.87909375,"end":758.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.39784375,"end":757.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.1572187500001,"end":758.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.54534375,"end":766.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.1897187500001,"end":769.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.4428437500001,"end":766.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.4934687500001,"end":766.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.78846875,"end":779.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.7065937500001,"end":783.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.4990937500002,"end":786.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.66346875,"end":787.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.1653437500001,"end":791.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.70471875,"end":792.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.84784375,"end":796.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.0503437500001,"end":794.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.3915937500001,"end":800.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.7665937500001,"end":802.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.9097187500001,"end":803.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.6015937500001,"end":804.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.23846875,"end":807.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.44471875,"end":811.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":812.68034375,"end":813.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.9797187500001,"end":814.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.75596875,"end":815.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.2790937500001,"end":815.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":816.4097187500001,"end":820.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":821.8940937500001,"end":826.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.60221875,"end":827.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.9353437500001,"end":833.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.36909375,"end":834.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.48284375,"end":838.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.12346875,"end":840.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":840.7434687500001,"end":841.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":842.2790937500001,"end":845.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":846.97034375,"end":849.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.32846875,"end":856.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.7409687500001,"end":857.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.9897187500001,"end":858.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.06971875,"end":860.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":860.77409375,"end":861.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":861.46596875,"end":862.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":862.4953437500001,"end":863.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":865.39784375,"end":868.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.07659375,"end":870.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":870.5447187500001,"end":872.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.70471875,"end":873.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.6159687500001,"end":876.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":877.5478437500001,"end":885.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":885.47909375,"end":886.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":887.33534375,"end":894.4734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":895.1315937500001,"end":896.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":896.8528437500001,"end":902.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":903.4340937500001,"end":903.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":904.21034375,"end":907.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":907.6865937500002,"end":909.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":910.36971875,"end":915.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":916.3603437500001,"end":921.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":922.50284375,"end":923.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":924.2747187500001,"end":926.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":927.31221875,"end":929.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":929.64096875,"end":931.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":931.36221875,"end":934.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":934.43346875,"end":936.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":936.9478437500002,"end":937.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":967.39034375,"end":974.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":974.12346875,"end":975.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":976.62096875,"end":978.44346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":19.093,"end":24.437,"text":"主席有請卓院長跟郭部長麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢郭委員好院長好院長我剛接著黃山威委員剛最後講的所謂的地熱能源開發我認為地熱能源開發現階段比較主要的問題是在土地的部分"},{"start":46.786,"end":72.063,"text":"土地的部分因為他大部分都是在特農所以說呢他必須在越過這個法規的部分要透過中研院來進行開發這當然是一個途徑但中研院自己本身能夠開發的能量有多少可能要去面對這個問題如果要提高第2能量的話可能要重新思考一下首先給院長做一個建議院長你稍作休息我跟那個部長對話一下那個部長"},{"start":73.22,"end":100.286,"text":"我想臺電在整個總體不缺電又不能長期依賴中南部的用電的這個部分對我已經多次表示態度而且這個新聞是在8月15號的時候那我們就看整個夏季的用電的部分你去看看中南部的部分的用電都是供過於求那北部很清楚就供不應求很清楚"},{"start":100.806,"end":116.583,"text":"那這種情況底下呢臺電一直在想說北部應該負擔比較多的能源政策負擔否則的話你長期的傳出其實會增加那個耗損所以以往而言整個這個發電都是從區域的角度來思考"},{"start":117.604,"end":141.213,"text":"北、中、南跟東部那本席為什麼一開始跟你提到這個問題呢因為上次你們就創造一個新的名詞也就是行政區域的自主自主率的問題然後你行政區域的自主率的問題你還特別強調說臺南市的部分只有20%本席來給你換算給你聽齁臺南市或許在你舊的資料當中是20%但是本席以去年"},{"start":143.115,"end":165.114,"text":"2023年臺南市的這個用電總共是328億度來計算的話深壩目前的這個裝置容量大概是2GW臺南市的這個整個太陽能光電與將近有4.5GW的這個裝置容量扣掉沒有日照的時間它能夠供應至少四分之以上至少1GW"},{"start":166.144,"end":195.75,"text":"然後另外呢因為我們那邊有四座水利發電廠包括曾文、烏山頭以及呢八田跟溪口這四座加起來有3億度左右我用最嚴格的標準來計算的話就台南市的部分就120加60加3就183你如果換算在隔壁你知道嗎隔壁的興達電廠在哪裡他就在北高雄他距離台南市幾公里"},{"start":196.383,"end":215.082,"text":"只有5公里北高雄是什麼地方竊定竊定的人從求學生活都是在台南市出入同樣道理這個電廠離台南市只有5公里涵蓋面積30公里的情況底下台南市至少至少在這能源負擔的部分至少負擔一半以照現在興達發電廠大概有發電200億度的情況底下"},{"start":220.249,"end":240.255,"text":"臺南至少會佔一半的情況下我換算起來哈布朗當啊臺南啊在整個你所謂的能源自主率的部分啊加總起來以去年這一個用電的這一個母數來計算我覺得大約就有八成之多就八成之多我第一個讓數字上給部長做參考部長你的看法如何"},{"start":243.104,"end":263.312,"text":"這個我要再回去瞭解一下再重新你確實要瞭解委員所指導的這個方向我們再重新去深入瞭解這一個所謂在推動臺南需要這一個火力發電廠天然氣發電廠已經有預設的目標才會創造這個民使才會用低估的數字讓你去前面去擋箭"},{"start":265.167,"end":275.382,"text":"當成擋箭盤在擋箭。（2、他用南科的理由。（南科我再跟你說。（南科當初台電允許南科的供電量是3.3GW目前用的是2.3GW用了7成。（"},{"start":279.13,"end":296.447,"text":"然後呢在整個用電計畫在未來的一年是大概151度然後佔整個台南市的用電當然那個整個南科大概佔了45%那這樣你未來也有南科的整個用電規劃因為南科太重要了嘛"},{"start":297.128,"end":316.708,"text":"你二期的1.1GW、七股的2.2GW再加上新達電廠1.5GW總共你要否南科的就4.6GW所以南科怎麼會缺電目前沒有但南科有缺什麼電我還是要強調一下南科缺的是這個綠電我把所有的數字整理出來來一個跟你說明"},{"start":317.95,"end":321.252,"text":"以在目前為止,臺南的這個328億的這個用電量的部分,工業部門的部分,用電大概是251度,佔大約7成。"},{"start":332.148,"end":355.115,"text":"台南的工業用電需求非常的高。你再檢視一下,在南科的產值1.58兆的情況底下,台積電啊,貢獻了1.2兆。但是台積電用電的比例啊,就綠電的部分啊,佔了整個80%。所以台積電是目前的南科最大的用電大戶。這大家都非常清楚,心知肚明。"},{"start":356.158,"end":368.022,"text":"台積電也早就提出他要加入這R100的部分R100的部分的目標值是2030年的時候60%的綠電2040年的時候要100%的這個綠電然後如果說按照台積電公開的永續報告書我給大家檢視了一下2030年的台積電的整個全台能的這個總資源耗損量的話大概是247.75億度"},{"start":381.374,"end":410.063,"text":"但在2023年的時候只用了25.9億度的綠電比例上大概佔11%距離2023年60%他現在只有11%之多距離非常的遙遠所以關鍵其實在綠電可是台南市在整個太陽能發電的建樹購入的部分總共多少總共9,445件高達21度現在是全台南全台灣最高的"},{"start":411.348,"end":435.317,"text":"所以基本上這種情況底下各種方式以這種從台南的來看的話他有沒有處理我再申訴給你聽另外一個部分整個光電圈是全國最高我們的整個在能源的負擔上面全國的這個蓄血量的能源負擔台南的水庫加總起來佔了56%總共佔了56%"},{"start":439.062,"end":465.969,"text":"所以呢在剛剛我在說的這些整個機組的換專額情況底下我覺得啦講白一點臺電呢在整個第一頁的時候說不能依照中南部的這個送電也就是不能依賴南電北送但是你們現在的開發的政策依然是南電北送啊部長你們實際的說的跟做的不一樣"},{"start":468.061,"end":495.163,"text":"說的是說不要南電北送希望北部負擔多一點但做的呢就是要南部負擔多一點報告委員我想如果是如你所說的說我們說的跟做的不一樣那這個我們要回去要來檢討一下為什麼我們說的跟做的不一樣對 部長問題就出在這邊嘛你現在所有都跑到南部去了我再來跟你講你為什麼會有這樣的結果"},{"start":497.889,"end":524.611,"text":"依照整個你們提到的10年的這個電力規劃上面我提到說有放寬這個PPA合約要為了滿足用電的需求為了追求這個KPI的部分目前是只有九威跟中江你知道嗎你拿九威跟中江的類比老實講是很奇怪的中江它在原來一個工業區舊工業區裡面它旁邊根本沒有所謂的住宅區的問題"},{"start":526.535,"end":542.636,"text":"這你清楚嗎?更何況中家本身背後的業者是房地產業者你真的確定他的專業嗎?再加上中家本身還有銀行連帶的問題你有去了解嗎?結果台電發出來新聞稿說中家是成功的案例"},{"start":543.68,"end":561.375,"text":"跟你講你沒有去了解實情現階段的整個久違也是拿PPA的狀況這種情況底下齁我跟你講短期內你要透過民間的這些電廠達到你十年計劃的情況底下老師說我是抱持著存疑我也讓那個院長知道"},{"start":563.491,"end":579.111,"text":"整個經濟部寫得非常好聽20GW要成長到47GW但是也不用悲觀我跟院長跟部長說明為什麼因為可以超支債給的在哪裡在台電本身在經濟部本身在能源署本身"},{"start":580.032,"end":604.615,"text":"人權署不要把只有把責任下放給台電而已你去看看喔,台電的機組當中不論是大潭、興達、森霸、大林、通宵、協和這幾個機組你10年起來加不來台漢布蘭岡是16.6GW也就是在你總體的新增計畫當中呢遠遠超過一半以上再加上你既有的這一個機組是不是要馬上研議還有調度的空間啊"},{"start":606.022,"end":634.353,"text":"對你天然氣的這個達標的可能性是有的啊不是沒有的啊 部長就是說你要去想看看操之在己的在哪裡你們可以要求了應該是要求台電要求能源署為什麼這些機組不會像有新生的機組這些問題新生的電廠這些問題因為他不用同意函嘛他不用環比嘛他只要將原來的機組來做個替換就可以了只是你們替換的速度快或慢而已啊"},{"start":635.903,"end":661.363,"text":"那個部長你回去想一下為什麼你們替換速度這麼慢為什麼為什麼別人要三年你們要六年這樣你們自己拖到的情況底下你才你才趕快想要修改這個辦法要修改的辦法呢你對我講什麼說台電的說法說要因為啊環評要兩年所以你要放寬"},{"start":662.577,"end":692.092,"text":"放寬這個所謂電業規則第三條的規定把還品跟同意書拿掉用這種方式來做處理結果呢你這樣的情況底下這樣的結果就是台電會欲速則不達你給廠商這些入廠券他沒有辦法處理他說兩年我跟你講久違到現在已經兩年了部長久違在前年的時候10月給他跟他簽約的到現在兩年了到現在大家還在抗議啊對啊"},{"start":693.717,"end":715.915,"text":"有比較快嗎?就結果來看,也沒有比較快啊,只是擾民而已啊。有達到你的政策目標嗎?部長,你好像要講話,讓你講一下。報告委員,我想九威這一個是,雖然投標的時候,這個免備、環評跟地方政府的同樣,但得標以後仍然需要。"},{"start":716.997,"end":726.265,"text":"所以經濟部在發這個這個籌設或者擴建的許可你這樣的情況底下他如果萬一沒有辦法得標的情況底下他是不是上面一直繞來繞去"},{"start":727.79,"end":749.155,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":750.438,"end":765.689,"text":"是保證表面上說都沒有拿到什麼PPA許可可是他到處給你辦那個公聽會謝謝 謝謝委員這個指導這樣不是造成人心惶惶嗎我們大概在之前他們在處理這件事情的時候沒有考慮到委員所指導的這個部分"},{"start":766.469,"end":792.623,"text":"對嘛 這個我們現在回去會深刻的檢討你要深刻檢討部長 深刻檢討的方式呢就是依照電業登記規則電業登記規則訂的是誰訂的 是政府訂的啊經濟部訂的啊 能源署訂的啊你可不可以授權給台電那麼大的空間三項可以變成 五項可以變成三項你應該留著自己控管才對啊我們還是依法行事啦因為依法行事才對嘛 對不對是 但會感覺上就是能源署啊"},{"start":793.868,"end":817.86,"text":"都要當好人啊,壞人要台電去當啊讓台電衝在最前線啊台電要把他轉包出去給廠商放在最前線啊層層下放啊大家爭相當好人沒有要當壞人啊大家都想要那個結果、業績啊不想要扛那個責任啊就形成這種文化啊對不對所以我建議部長應該把這個主導權拿回來"},{"start":821.986,"end":844.636,"text":"甚至能把整個能源政策的控管拿在你的手中不要讓能源署只會發包給台電而已那台北要轉發包給民間電廠這層層發包結果怎麼樣你來自於商界你最清楚嘛所以我真的是在這個時候慎重的提醒你錯誤的政策應該做修正跟導正"},{"start":847.031,"end":863.593,"text":"所以說我請你回去之後好好想清楚依照現有的這個機制當中要如何形成一個新的退場機制出來不要造成地方的一個紛紛擾擾可以嗎可以好最後我要跟部長講部長再來講為什麼對能源署有意見"},{"start":865.475,"end":885.903,"text":"你們在八月的時候提出一個能源用地白皮書啦,裡頭寫得很清楚,要用屋頂行為優先。因為呢,你們地面行已經,地面行十二,要十二,屋頂八幾個月,八幾個月政策目標已經達成了,可是地面行沒有。你對我來講說可能到2026,這個我可以理解,我可以理解。"},{"start":887.384,"end":911.397,"text":"但是我必須說你後面的部分還是要屋頂型為優先你們一開始是這樣子你那種說法讓人家覺得你好像要走地面型為什麼說走那個屋頂型呢因為台灣的整個面積本來狹小你用地用了之後那不知道20年以後的事情但就整個用電的比例最多其實集中在都市區六都當中佔了60%所以說都市建築當中的屋頂的這一個光電的這一個承擔責任應該責無旁貸"},{"start":916.394,"end":916.414,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":967.432,"end":971.6,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝郭國文委員的諮詢,謝謝左院長跟經濟部長的備詢,謝謝。接下來請登記第三號,王鴻薇委員諮詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":133,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時53分）主席，有請卓院長跟郭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：院長好，院長，我接續黃珊珊委員剛剛最後講的所謂的地熱能源開發，我認為地熱能源開發現階段比較主要的問題是在於土地的部分，因為土地大部分都是在特農，所以必須要越過這個法規的部分，要透過中研院來進行開發，這當然是一個途徑，但中研院自己本身能夠開發的能量有多少，可能要去面對這個問題，如果要提高地熱能量的話，可能要重新思考一下，我首先給院長做一個建議，請院長稍作休息，我跟部長對話一下。","部長，我想台電在整個總體不缺電又不能長期依賴中南部送電的這個部分已經對外多次表示態度，而且這個新聞是在8月15號的時候，那我們就看整個夏季用電的部分，你去看看中南部的用電都是供過於求，北部很清楚就是供不應求，這個很清楚。在這種情況底下，台電也一直在想說北部應該負擔比較多的能源政策負擔，否則長期的傳輸其實會增加耗損。從以往而言，整個發電都是從區域的角度來思考，就是北、中、南跟東部，那本席為什麼一開始跟你提到這個問題？因為上次你們創造一個新的名詞，也就是行政區域自主率的問題，而行政區域自主率的問題，你還特別強調臺南市的部分只有20%，本席來換算給你聽，臺南市或許在你舊的資料當中是20%，但是本席以去（2023）年臺南市的用電總共是328億度來計算的話，森霸目前的裝置容量大概是2GW，臺南市的整個太陽能光電已將近有4.5GW的裝置容量，扣掉沒有日照的時間，它能夠供應的至少有四分之一以上、至少1GW。","另外，因為我們那邊有4座水力發電廠，包括曾文、烏山頭以及八田跟西口，這4座加起來有3億度左右，我用最嚴格的標準來計算的話，臺南市的部分是120加60加3，就有183，你如果換算在隔壁，你知道嗎？隔壁的興達電廠在哪裡？它就在北高雄，它距離臺南市幾公里？只有5公里，北高雄是什麼地方？茄萣，茄萣的人從求學、生活都是在臺南市出入，同樣的道理，這個電廠離臺南市只有5公里，涵蓋的面積30公里的情況底下，臺南市在能源負擔的部分至少負擔一半，你知道現在興達發電廠大概發電200億度的情況底下，臺南至少會占一半的情況下，我換算起來，夯不啷噹，臺南在整個你所謂的能源自主率的部分加總起來，以去年用電的母數來計算，我覺得大約就有八成之多，我第一個就數字上給部長做參考，部長，您的看法如何？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我要再回去了解一下，再重新……"],["郭委員國文：你確實要了解。"],["郭部長智輝：就委員所指導的這個方向，我們再重新去深入的了解。"],["郭委員國文：部長，你需要了解。這個所謂在推動臺南需要火力發電廠、天然氣發電廠已經有預設的目標，才會創造這個名詞，才會用低估的數字讓你去前面當成擋箭牌在擋箭；第二個部分，他用南科的理由，南科的部分我再跟你說，當初台電核准南科的供電量是3.3GW，目前用的是2.3GW，只用了七成，然後整個用電計畫，在未來的一年大概150億度，而占整個臺南市的用電，整個南科大概占了45%，加上你未來也有南科的整個用電規劃，因為南科太重要了，你二期的1.1GW，七股的2.2GW，再加上興達電廠的1.5GW，總共你要for南科的就有4.6GW，所以南科怎麼會缺電？目前沒有，但南科有缺什麼電？我還是要強調一下，南科缺的是綠電，我把所有的數字整理出來一一跟你說明。","你知道目前為止，臺南328億度用電量的部分，工業部門的部分用電大概是250億度，占大約七成，臺南工業用電的需求非常高，你再檢視一下，在南科的產值1.58兆的情況底下，台積電貢獻了1.2兆，但是台積電用電的比例，就綠電的部分占了80%，所以台積電是目前南科最大的用電大戶，這個大家都非常清楚，心知肚明，台積電也早就提出它要加入RE100的部分，RE100的目標值是2030的時候要60%的綠電，2040年的時候要100%的綠電。如果說按照台積電公開的永續報告書，我檢視了一下，2030年台積電的整個全臺南的總資源耗損量大概是247.75億度，但是在2023年的時候只用了25.9億度的綠電，比例上大概占11%，距離2030年的60%，它現在只有11%之多，距離非常的遙遠，所以關鍵其實是在綠電。可是臺南市在整個太陽能發電的件數購入的部分總共多少？總共9,445件，高達20億度，現在是全臺灣最高的，所以基本上，在這種情況底下，各種方式，以從臺南來看的話，他有沒有處理？我再申論給你聽。","另外一個部分，整個光電雖然是全國最高，我們整個在能源的負擔上面，全國蓄水量的能源負擔，臺南的水庫加總起來總共占了56%，所以剛剛我在說的這些整個機組換裝的情況底下，我覺得，講白一點，在第一頁的時候我說台電不能依賴中南部的送電，也就是不能依賴南電北送，但是你們現在開發的政策依然是要南電北送啊！部長，你們實際說的跟做的不一樣，說的是不要南電北送，希望北部負擔多一點，但做的就是要南部負擔多一點。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想如果……"],["郭委員國文：你覺得我這個數字哪邊有錯誤，請你指正啊！"],["郭部長智輝：如果是如您所說，我們說的跟做的不一樣，那這個我們回去要檢討一下，為什麼我們說的跟做的不一樣。"],["郭委員國文：對，部長，問題就出在這邊嘛！你現在所有都跑到南部去了。","好，我再跟你講，為什麼會有這樣的結果？依照整個你們提到的10年電力規劃，我提到說有放寬PPA合約，為了滿足用電的需求、為了追求KPI的部分，目前只有九崴跟中佳，你知道嗎？拿九崴跟中佳類比，老實講是很奇怪的！中佳原來在一個舊工業區裡面，它旁邊根本沒有所謂住宅區的問題，對不對？這你清楚嘛！更何況中佳本身背後的業者是房地產業者，你真的確定它的專業嗎？再加上中佳本身還有銀行聯貸的問題，你有去了解嗎？結果台電發出的新聞稿說中佳是成功的案例。跟你講，你沒有去了解實情，現階段整個九崴也是拿PPA的狀況，這種情況底下，我跟你講，短期內你要透過民間這些電廠達到你10年計畫，老實說，我是抱持著存疑！我也讓院長知道。","整個經濟部寫得非常好聽，20GW要成長到47GW，但是也不用悲觀，我跟院長跟部長說明，為什麼？因為可以操之在己的在哪裡？在台電本身！在經濟部本身！在能源署本身！能源署不要只把責任下放給台電而已，你去看看台電的機組當中，不論是大潭、興達、森霸、大林、通霄、協和這幾個機組，10年加起來夯不噹啷是16.6GW，也就是在總體新增計畫當中，遠遠超過一半以上，再加上既有的機組是不是要馬上延役，還有調度的空間。所以你的天然氣達標的可能性是有的，不是沒有的，部長，也就是說，你要去想看看操之在己的在哪裡？你們可以要求的應該是要求台電、要求能源署，為什麼這些機組不會有像新生機組、新生電廠的這些問題，因為它不用同意函、它不用環評，它只要將原來的機組做個替換就可以了，只是你們替換的速度快或慢而已。","部長，你回去想一下，為什麼你們替換速度這麼慢，為什麼？為什麼別人要3年，你們要6年？這樣你們自己拖到的情況底下，你才趕快想要修改這個辦法。對於修改的辦法，你對外講什麼？台電的說法是，因為環評要兩年，所以你要放寬所謂電業規則第三條的規定，把環評跟同意書拿掉，用這種方式來做處理，結果在這樣的情況底下，這樣的結果就是台電會欲速則不達！你給廠商這些入場券，它沒有辦法處理，它說兩年，我跟你講，九崴到現在已經兩年了，部長，九崴在前年10月的時候跟它簽約的，到現在兩年了，到現在大家還在抗議啊！有比較快嗎？就結果來看也沒有比較快啊！只是擾民而已啊！有達到你的政策目標嗎？部長，你好像要講話，讓你講一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，九崴雖然投標的時候免備環評跟地方政府的同意，但得標以後仍然需要。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以經濟部在發籌設或者擴建許可……"],["郭委員國文：在這樣的情況底下，它萬一沒有辦法得標，它是不是在那邊一直繞來繞去，影響到整個政府的威信？會不會讓整個天然氣被地方污名化、被在野黨污名化、被民眾唾棄？會不會變成這樣子？天然氣後面要怎麼推？你有沒有考慮到後續的副作用？更何況部長上任之後看這樣的狀況，九崴在推，有樣看樣，寶椿以為這樣可以，結果又來一個寶椿，寶椿表面上說都沒有拿到什麼PPA許可，可是它到處給你辦公聽會。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指導。"],["郭委員國文：這樣不是造成人心惶惶嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：之前他們在處理這件事情的時候，沒有考慮到委員所指導的這個部分。"],["郭委員國文：對嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們現在回去會深刻的檢討，看要怎麼處理。"],["郭委員國文：要深刻的檢討，部長，深刻檢討的方式就是依照電業登記規則，電業登記規則是政府訂的、經濟部訂的、能源署訂的，你怎麼授權台電那麼大的空間，五項可以變成三項？你應該留著自己控管才對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們還是依法行事啦！"],["郭委員國文：因為依法行事才對嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["郭委員國文：不然，感覺上就是能源署要當好人，壞人要台電去當啦！讓台電衝在最前線，台電又把它轉包出去，把廠商放在最前線，層層下放，大家爭相當好人，沒有人要當壞人，大家都想要那個業績，不想要扛那個責任，就形成這種文化，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以我建議部長應該把主導權拿回來，甚至把整個能源政策的控管拿在你的手中，不要讓能源署只會發包給台電而已，台電又轉發包給民間電廠，層層發包的結果怎麼樣，你來自於商界，你最清楚嘛！在這個時候我真的要慎重的提醒你，錯誤的政策應該做修正跟導正，所以請你回去之後好好想清楚，依照現有的機制，要如何形成一個新的退場機制出來，不要造成地方的紛紛擾擾，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["郭委員國文：好。","最後我要跟部長講，為什麼我對能源署有意見？你們在8月的時候提出一個能源用地白皮書，裡頭寫得很清楚，要以屋頂型為優先，因為地面型12GW、屋頂型8GW，8GW的政策目標已經達成了，可是地面型沒有，你對外講說可能要到2026年，這個我可以理解，但是我必須說後面還是要以屋頂型為優先，你們一開始是這樣子，你那個說法會讓人家覺得好像要走地面型。為什麼要走屋頂型呢？因為臺灣的整個面積本來就狹小，用地用了之後，那可能是二十年以後的事情，但整個用電比率最多的其實集中在都市區，六都占了60%，所以都市建築當中的屋頂承擔光電的責任應該責無旁貸，可是我們現在卻把整個能源負擔都放在非都市區，所以要以屋頂型優先，才能朝都市區來發展，也因此在去年通過的再生能源發展條例當中就有一個規定，但是能源署跟內政部開了七次會還沒有達成共識，連那個300坪的問題也沒有達成共識。我計算過，300坪只能產生0.15GW，所以不能太寬鬆，不然就沒有意義了。我建議你不要把這部分推給內政部，拿回來自己做。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在推節能減碳的時候會把新的項目列入考慮。"],["郭委員國文：對，由你們自己來處理，否則，如果太寬鬆的話，屋頂型300坪，蓋了大家都要用電，結果大家都不願意在屋頂上做，哪有這種事情？院長，麻煩你啦！謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭國文委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長跟經濟部部長的備詢。","接下來請登記第3號王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}},{"id":"156213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5bdfb18427c62f34141d3f813821f8ac6e9140c2b1893b4aec034bc6d805c63ecd6849d3fc6a78aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:36:42 - 09:52:46","影片長度":"00:16:04","會議時間":"2024-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院內政委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員王鴻薇等20人及委員李彥秀等17人分別擬具「都市更新條例第六十五條條文修正草案」案等3案。（10月25日）。 二、行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢。（10月29日）。 三、上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。（10月25日）。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-29","start_time":"2024-10-29T09:36:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-29T09:52:46+08:00","duration":964,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期第6次會議","id":"院會-11-2-6","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.87721875,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.961593750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.63409375,"end":29.460968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.11909375,"end":30.675968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.895343750000002,"end":42.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":45.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.846593750000004,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.259718750000005,"end":48.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.17096875,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.56721875,"end":52.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.71471875,"end":53.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.08159375,"end":55.229093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.00534375,"end":62.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.400968750000004,"end":64.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.66221875000001,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.86034375,"end":66.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.56471875,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.73284375,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.67346875,"end":81.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.76909375000001,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.03471875000001,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.05159375000001,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.06409375000001,"end":85.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.14409375000001,"end":86.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.19471875,"end":86.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.93721875,"end":87.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.95409375,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.37596875,"end":88.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.91159375000001,"end":89.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.51909375000001,"end":95.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.83034375000001,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.54721875,"end":111.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.13284375,"end":105.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.89971875,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.39221875000001,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.06659375000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.20971875000001,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.66471875000002,"end":134.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.09846875,"end":139.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.19471875000002,"end":143.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.75534375,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.12659375,"end":159.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.84971875000002,"end":168.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.74721875,"end":171.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.13909375,"end":173.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.60284375,"end":176.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.61096875,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.96909375,"end":183.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.52534375000002,"end":185.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.41971875000002,"end":192.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.07221875000002,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.83471875,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.88096875000002,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.08346875,"end":204.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.01159375,"end":214.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.47096875000003,"end":208.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.63034375,"end":231.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.12971875000002,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.60596875000002,"end":240.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.31409375,"end":240.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.03971875000002,"end":242.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.01409375000003,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.64659375000002,"end":247.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.16096875000002,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.05034375000002,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.95659375,"end":263.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.87159375000005,"end":268.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.60909375,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.31721875,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.59409375,"end":288.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.69909375000003,"end":291.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.80784375,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.22534375000004,"end":301.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.85784375000003,"end":298.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.81534375,"end":300.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.84471875,"end":301.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.40159375,"end":301.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.31284375,"end":305.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.80159375,"end":308.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.09659375,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.32409375000003,"end":313.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.58534375,"end":333.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.78471875,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.45971875000004,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.14284375,"end":340.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.27721875000003,"end":342.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.86346875000004,"end":343.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.89721875000004,"end":346.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.36534375,"end":348.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.32659375000003,"end":352.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.05221875,"end":350.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.54971875,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.71846875,"end":354.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.55784375,"end":359.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.64971875000003,"end":365.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.15971875,"end":372.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.06596875,"end":374.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.19596875,"end":377.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.96346875,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.06471875,"end":379.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.63409375000003,"end":382.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.19471875000005,"end":384.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.69659375000003,"end":385.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.64159375,"end":386.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.85659375,"end":394.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.46721875000003,"end":398.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.78721875,"end":399.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.52534375000005,"end":401.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.07784375,"end":405.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.66784375000003,"end":408.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.13159375000004,"end":410.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.76846875,"end":418.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.48034375000003,"end":419.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.39159375,"end":422.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.35721875,"end":424.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.39909375,"end":425.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.02346875,"end":426.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.17096875000004,"end":430.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.86659375000005,"end":434.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.87909375000004,"end":434.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.49034375,"end":435.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.50721875000005,"end":440.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.29971875,"end":447.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.41659375,"end":458.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.84534375000004,"end":462.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.54096875000005,"end":465.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.59534375000004,"end":475.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.48409375000006,"end":477.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.15909375,"end":476.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.77909375,"end":478.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.63971875000004,"end":480.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.96409375,"end":483.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.37659375000004,"end":490.63784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.78971875,"end":491.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.61221875,"end":501.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.89346875,"end":511.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.0690937500001,"end":513.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.3472187500001,"end":516.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.2709687500001,"end":516.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.62096875,"end":520.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.29534375,"end":525.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.43034375,"end":523.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.69159375,"end":530.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.02846875,"end":529.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.4965937500001,"end":537.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.3603437500001,"end":541.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.2078437499999,"end":546.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.42221875,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.2903437500001,"end":557.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.0534687500001,"end":558.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.79159375,"end":560.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.6184687500001,"end":567.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.3178437500001,"end":567.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.40221875,"end":570.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.5365937500001,"end":572.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.88659375,"end":573.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.6797187500001,"end":589.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.06534375,"end":590.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.1284687500001,"end":599.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.5109687500001,"end":608.4422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.1172187500001,"end":609.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.99471875,"end":610.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.32784375,"end":620.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.1709687499999,"end":616.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.53721875,"end":633.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.19784375,"end":640.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.6272187500001,"end":647.3897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.95596875,"end":643.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.59659375,"end":650.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.5834687500001,"end":654.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.1015937500001,"end":658.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.57784375,"end":660.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.4678437500002,"end":663.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.9778437500001,"end":667.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.6397187500002,"end":668.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.0403437500001,"end":675.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.0265937500001,"end":677.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.8659687500001,"end":679.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.3003437500001,"end":680.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.0047187499999,"end":683.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.82284375,"end":695.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.97284375,"end":703.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.4484687500001,"end":706.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.46471875,"end":713.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.26534375,"end":733.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.6840937500001,"end":741.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.77159375,"end":744.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.5390937500001,"end":745.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.28159375,"end":746.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.14221875,"end":746.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.2097187500001,"end":747.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.71159375,"end":751.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.5928437500002,"end":754.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.04846875,"end":752.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.13659375,"end":761.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.28846875,"end":755.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.87909375,"end":755.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.6840937500001,"end":768.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.79721875,"end":767.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.09221875,"end":773.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.0872187500001,"end":786.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.09534375,"end":776.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.77721875,"end":787.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.8572187500001,"end":787.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.90784375,"end":793.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.3078437500001,"end":816.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.4934687500001,"end":793.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.05096875,"end":818.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.0590937500001,"end":826.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.9228437500001,"end":829.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.8759687500001,"end":833.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.5547187500001,"end":837.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":837.4697187500001,"end":839.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.06846875,"end":844.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.45596875,"end":844.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":844.60784375,"end":845.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":844.62471875,"end":845.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.46846875,"end":845.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.85659375,"end":845.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":845.9409687500001,"end":846.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":846.02534375,"end":847.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.52721875,"end":847.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.54409375,"end":848.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":849.53534375,"end":873.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.31221875,"end":873.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":873.3459687500001,"end":873.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.39659375,"end":874.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":873.6497187500001,"end":873.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":875.0165937500001,"end":877.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":877.04159375,"end":879.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":879.7078437500002,"end":882.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.71159375,"end":888.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":889.0734687500001,"end":890.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":890.9128437500001,"end":891.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":892.41471875,"end":894.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":894.49034375,"end":897.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":897.9665937500001,"end":899.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":899.6709687500002,"end":900.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":901.54409375,"end":907.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":907.46721875,"end":915.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":915.73596875,"end":917.2547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.6765937500002,"end":918.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":918.55409375,"end":919.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":919.41471875,"end":920.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":921.4397187500001,"end":923.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":923.63346875,"end":924.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":924.5109687500001,"end":925.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":926.3334687500001,"end":928.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.7465937500001,"end":929.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":929.80971875,"end":930.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":931.19346875,"end":933.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.6909687500001,"end":935.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":957.1978437500002,"end":961.2309687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.734,"end":9.395,"text":"謝主席、委員長、經濟部部長、環境部部長、臺電董事長。"},{"start":28.823,"end":55.004,"text":"黃委員好委員好是部長、院長我想我剛剛很高興看到卓院長的報告對於臺灣未來的能源配比已經有一個初步完整的結構但是我今天的質詢有幾個題目希望能夠了解一下院長的態度還有接下來的做法前面比較輕鬆一點我們來討論一下智慧電表這個是政府的政策對吧"},{"start":56.055,"end":81.294,"text":"目前也是賴總統在氣候變遷委員會裡面要求很重要的就是節能是最重要的部長是嗎是的我想請問一下這個變遷委員會他們將來的決議行政院都會照辦吧還是會像司改會或者是年改會很多決議其實都沒有做到我們不希望再發生同樣的事情這個因件並不遠"},{"start":82.793,"end":87.895,"text":"所以這個決議絕對會成為行政院的政策不會像年改會或司改會後續無力的狀況"},{"start":98.889,"end":124.445,"text":"總統府這個氣候變遷委員會他主要是就一些政策的討論至於怎麼樣的執行執行行政院來執行期程預算的規劃但是人力的佈置都由行政院逐步的來推動我也希望是這樣不要常常看到有很多的決議但是後面沒有下文接下來是賴總統說最好的節能政策才是比開發能源更有效益這個也是兩位認同他說最好的能源就是節能"},{"start":125.37,"end":142.979,"text":"沒錯所以節能我們現在將近要花4年300多億要省下206億度的電然後讓民間來投資3000多億對吧目前的計劃是這樣但是我在這邊要要有趣的是智慧電表是政府的政策"},{"start":144.158,"end":173.345,"text":"日本跟德國都認為說智慧電表可以達到節能效果但是我們這邊要跟大家說也要跟部長跟院長說從審計部的報告裡面很有趣他說我們的智慧電表裝得太慢而且裝上智慧電表也不智慧事實的事情是這樣一百零年開始推動智慧電表我們在十二年內將近裝設了三百二十三萬戶但是其中一百四十七萬戶的高耗能的用電"},{"start":174.616,"end":192.756,"text":"。（"},{"start":195.434,"end":213.935,"text":"報告委員這個部分我想智慧電表是我們這一期大力要推動在深度節能的部分是透過智慧電表所以智慧電表是其中的一個節能的項目是但是現在的速度跟效率我覺得有點低而且審計部也說裝太慢"},{"start":214.736,"end":242.134,"text":"更嚴重的是院長什麼叫智慧電表因為他就是要透過網際網路直接可以讀取而且他可以審閱但是現在有3萬戶左右裝了智慧電表的電表不智慧因為他沒有網際網路所以等於是裝了等於白裝啊我的意思是說如果審計部有這樣的檢討報告院長跟部長可能要去看一看我們的檢討政策是出了什麼問題好嗎是謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":243.072,"end":268.847,"text":"因為這個部分看起來就是有點可笑接下來就會看到說我們從101年開始推其實跟日本是同個時間我們現在推到大概20%日本幾乎到現在已經100%也就是我們還剩下11年的80%這個速度跟效率的確是非常非常的差所以部長我相信你來自企業你應該不會容許這樣的效率存在在我們的政府之間吧"},{"start":270.053,"end":290.414,"text":"是的,我想這個院長有指示,這個部分我們會...院長我覺得這個節能是最好的能源,拜託節能的第一要務就是智慧電表的落實,而且我們落後其他國家非常多。好,我們會極力的迎頭趕上,希望能夠達到目標。我同時要請那個台電董事長要上台一下,謝謝。"},{"start":293.851,"end":294.372,"text":"臺電董事長臺電董事長臺電董事長"},{"start":311.944,"end":335.783,"text":"從立法院給了政府的公務預算﹐不管是增資也好﹐補助也好﹐其實大概已經都有3000億左右﹐然後去年﹐今年一年我們漲了兩次電價﹐現在經濟部又來向立法院申請了將近2000億的補助﹐接下來需要撥補給台電﹐我想問一下院長﹐如果就這些都給了﹐請問﹐我們多久可以不漲電價﹐"},{"start":337.462,"end":359.574,"text":"報告委員首先我們今年10月份的電價的調整民生用電沒有調整那遠遠低於我們的成本所以我們應該可以保有明年有機會不找電價嗎我們努力讓民生的穩定所以除了除了剛剛講的能夠節電其實還有一個台電要節流"},{"start":360.957,"end":383.902,"text":"臺電不節流才是今天虧損的虧大的主因這邊也是陳基部說的部長事事念念就是這一段話是他認為有信心讓臺電的財務建立我想不曉得是企業他一定不能容許自己的企業在那邊浪費嘛對吧好我們現在就是陳基部又講另外一件事進口的燃煤他每年送到臺灣來然後要卸貨在一"},{"start":384.684,"end":403.768,"text":"一百一十年卸貨如果你卸貨太慢要給他一個致船費就船要停在那邊等你卸貨從一百一十年我們大概只有兩億到一百一十一年我們暴增到7億那也就算了一百一十二年貨送來了沒有辦法卸貨台電賠了20億"},{"start":407.241,"end":420.387,"text":"20億是什麼?致船費也就是我們訂的貨人家送來了你沒有倉庫可以卸貨然後就讓他在船上等要賠給船東賠一年賠20億你一年我們現在剛院長說賠了4000多億其中這樣就快30億部長這是怎麼回事?報告委員我想這一個命題我們回去會馬上嚴查這件事情不應該發生"},{"start":435.526,"end":465.246,"text":"部長來自企業界庫存、倉庫都要準備好然後貨來了要趕快卸沒有地方存要去找地方存你20億、30億拿來蓋倉庫都蓋完了不是現在這樣的狀況你可以說烏克蘭戰爭我們預計不好你訂貨跟送貨都沒有規劃也沒有安排然後一賠20億現在告訴我說要漲電價這百姓怎麼能接受這個我們回去馬上來清查這件事情"},{"start":465.643,"end":482.857,"text":"好這個是要清查請一個月之內給本席一個報告而且你也要給審計部報告也要告訴我們全民說漲價是因為漲到這種錢漲到這種錢我們不甘心啊好嗎我們來追查這件事情是現在請主席我要請環境部長麻煩請環境部長備詢這件事情需要報告拜託我覺得蠻離譜的"},{"start":492.659,"end":520.072,"text":"接下去就是上一次院長我再總實詢也問過了我先對於基隆協和電廠的未來還有現在的四階的環評上次部長說沒有替代方案環境部長說我不是經濟部的環保署我會嚴格審查院長回答我目前還沒有想到替代方案我想知道如果環評不過兩位院長跟部長還是沒有替代方案嗎"},{"start":522.321,"end":546.386,"text":"要不要努力呢?要去努力還是要去耍無賴的?目前的努力是一步一步的收集更完整的資料。我也希望,所以你們要去找資料,我也很認真的幫你們找資料。我剛剛聽到院長的報告很高興,因為我們把地熱列為台灣未來再生能源的其中一個重要項目。所以接下來就要跟兩位報告說,其實在基隆有地熱,"},{"start":547.466,"end":572.008,"text":"基隆的地熱在2014年公園院就已經查到基隆嶼下面有新來的海底火山另外協和電廠將來還是燃氣他還是會借海造地這會破壞生態第二個燃氣還是有所謂的戰爭風險有所謂的會受到天后的影響會受到國際能源的影響"},{"start":572.912,"end":599.431,"text":"地熱淨零碳排而且不用燃料最重要是24小時不受天候的影響還有我們是穩定不求人我想地熱應該是臺灣未來很重要的一個方向所以基隆有這樣的資源但是我很遺憾我最近在調資料經濟部沒有做過研究就說沒有替代方案然後台電呢也說從來沒有探勘過請問沒有探勘過你怎麼知道沒有第三"},{"start":601.043,"end":620.249,"text":"2022年的海大教授就說其實我們希望能夠在基隆這個地方把地熱列為考慮之一院長我要說的是你們要集齊窮盡所有的努力去找到更多的方案而不是直接把這個鍋甩給環境部"},{"start":621.564,"end":643.864,"text":"尤其是院長我希望很堅定的說你剛剛講的報告第六是中華民國未來政策的重要的重中之重我希望他會成為卓院長的一個政績好嗎我們只要有任何的訊息我要請經濟部督促台電跟相關的部門能夠去廣泛的去發掘沒錯所以請不要輕易的說沒有替代方案"},{"start":644.565,"end":668.011,"text":"而且,替代方案,人家都告訴你了。是,跟委員報告的第一任目前的成本相當的高。相當高,所以我們要現在接近其他國家。這是土耳其的資料。土耳其在2010年它只有94MW,但是到2018年,成長了將近12倍。也就是,要做還是不做。成本一開始都很高,因為要探勘。"},{"start":669.051,"end":682.998,"text":"我們現在的問題是剛剛講的我們不知道或我們從來沒去探勘過也不曉得要把它當成國家重要的方向土耳其就在眼前做不做而已另外我們也找到他們的方法"},{"start":683.831,"end":712.634,"text":"他其實很認真的在做一件事第一個他們的政府先把所有的地質探勘的資料做完備提供相關的數據讓國際的企業可以知道或者是來協助來參與最重要的是他提供稅務的減免補貼的政策甚至資金的援助更重要的是先完善地熱的法規這些環境造就以後國際的企業就像風電供光電業者他就會來"},{"start":714.295,"end":714.435,"text":"。（10月29日（。"},{"start":734.725,"end":746.872,"text":"我們碰到很多美國商會、歐洲商會的朋友都一直在說希望得到完整的data而已他們有data他們就可以做評估院長這件事情還沒開始做欸"},{"start":747.799,"end":768.57,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個意見,我們請經濟部,這是非常可行的方式,好,現在去主持。這一次為什麼還沒開始做,然後又變成中央政策,我希望的是,院部長你可以答應開始做這件事。我們開始在做,我們已經在那個宜蘭的園山,挖了第一口深層的這個地熱井。"},{"start":769.07,"end":769.19,"text":"主席"},{"start":787.896,"end":816.082,"text":"部長我很期待因為我們希望如果可以啟動的話基隆也可以成為你所定的一個地方不管協和電廠的未來命運如何我們都不應該放棄探勘基隆的地熱這是第一點接下來可以看到美國的計劃美國的計劃是到現在要提升未來將來2050年要比現在的地熱提升到28.5%也就是提升20倍以上佔他的能源佔比"},{"start":817.302,"end":829.267,"text":"為全美發電8.5%我們台灣我調的資料是我們2024目前低熱發電是剛剛院長說的7.29MW是占總發電量不到0.1%然後好像我們的目標是2030年低熱發電值200MW在總發電量不到0.3部長這個目標有沒有太低了一點"},{"start":840.16,"end":866.398,"text":"是的,這個部分我們會滾動式的來檢討核心大一點吧目標高一點吧如果地熱台灣接下去的問題是你看國際的科技巨擘從Google到Meta都在發展地熱做它數據中心的電源也就是說剛剛我講只要環境友善只要法規明確只要資料健全"},{"start":866.958,"end":867.9,"text":"二、行政院院長提出"},{"start":882.902,"end":912.237,"text":"國科會早就說了臺灣的地熱資源豐富儲存量將近10座核市場2011年到現在10多年竟然進展只有剛剛部長說今年才開始認真的探勘其實進度稍嫌緩慢而且地熱裡面臺灣蘊藏了400GW宜蘭現在是8.5所以其實宜蘭是一個很重要的方向而且已經開始了我們希望"},{"start":912.765,"end":913.586,"text":"韓國瑜委員會委員會主席"},{"start":957.972,"end":959.155,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢。謝謝主委長及各部會首長備詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":43,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時36分）謝謝主席。我請院長、經濟部部長、環境部部長、台電董事長。"],["主席：請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：很高興看到卓院長的報告對於臺灣未來的能源配比，已經有一個初步完整的結構。我今天的質詢有幾個題目，希望能藉此了解一下院長的態度，還有接下來的作法。","前面比較輕鬆一點，我們來討論一下智慧電表。這是政府的政策，對吧？賴總統在氣候變遷委員會裡提到，節能是最重要的，部長，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想請問，這個氣候變遷委員會將來的決議行政院都會照辦吧？還是會像司改會或年改會，很多決議其實都沒有做到？我們不希望再發生同樣的事情，這個殷鑑並不遠。院長有參加這個會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有參加這個會。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長有參加？"],["郭部長智輝：我有。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個決議絕對會成為行政院的政策，不會像年改會或司改會後續無力？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統府的氣候變遷委員會主要是就一些政策做討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：至於怎麼樣執行、期程……"],["黃委員珊珊：由行政院來執行……"],["卓院長榮泰：預算的規劃，乃至人力的布置，都由行政院逐步來推。"],["黃委員珊珊：我也希望是這樣，不要常常看到有很多的決議但後面沒有下文。","接下來，賴總統說最好的節能政策比開發能源更有效益，這點兩位也認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：他說最好的能源就是節能。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以為了節能，我們四年、將近花三百多億來省下206億度的電，讓民間來投資三千多億，對吧？目前的計畫是這樣。但有趣的是，智慧電表是政府的政策，日本跟德國都認為智慧電表可以達到節能的效果，但我在這邊要跟大家說，也要跟部長跟院長說，審計部的報告很有趣，它說我們的智慧電表裝得太慢，而且裝上智慧電表也不智慧，事實的實情是這樣。我們101年開始推動智慧電表，在十二年內將近裝設了323萬戶，但其中147萬的高耗能住宅用電戶，到目前為止並沒有裝智慧電表，將近有一半。也就是說，我們有裝智慧電表，可是我們是裝在低耗能的，高耗能的反而有一百多萬戶沒有裝！這狀況是審計部說的，不是我說的。部長，你對這個有什麼看法？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，有關這個部分，我想智慧電表是我們這一期大力要推動的，在深度節能的部分，透過智慧電表……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以智慧電表是其中一個節能的項目，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是現在的速度跟效率我覺得有點低啦，而且審計部也說裝太慢，更嚴重的是，院長，什麼叫做智慧電表？就是要透過網際網路……"],["卓院長榮泰：連線。"],["黃委員珊珊：直接可以讀取，而且可以審閱，但現在有3萬戶左右裝設的智慧電表並不智慧，因為它沒有網際網路，所以裝了等於白裝。我的意思是說，如果審計部有這樣的檢討報告，院長跟部長可能要去看一看我們的節能政策是出了什麼問題，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的指導。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為這個部分看起來有點可笑。","接下來要看的是，我們從101年開始推，其實跟日本是同一個時間，我們現在推到大約20%，日本到現在幾乎已經百分之百了，也就是我們還剩下11年的80%，這個速度跟效率的確是非常非常的差。所以部長，我相信您來自企業，你應該不會容許這樣的效率存在於我們政府之間吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，這個院長有指示，這個部分我們會全力以赴。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，院長，我覺得所謂節能是最好的能源，拜託節能的第一要務就是智慧電表的落實，而且我們落後其他國家非常多。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們會極力地迎頭趕上，希望能夠達到目標。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我同時要請台電董事長上台一下，謝謝。","接下來我還要再講一個審計部最近查到的部分……"],["主席：時間暫停，跟黃珊珊委員報告一下，台電董事長不能備詢，他就坐在那邊，因為他不是部長。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，沒關係，那我們就把要問台電的事情來問院長跟部長。接下來也是審計部說的，我們現在從立法院給政府的公務預算中，不管是增資也好，補助也好，其實大概已經給台電3,000億左右。今年一年我們漲了2次電價，現在經濟部又向立法院申請了將近2,000億的補助，接下來需要撥補給台電。我想問一下院長，如果這些都給了，請問我們多久可以不漲電價？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，首先在我們今年10月份的電價調整方面，民生用電沒有調整，還遠遠低於我們的成本，所以台電必須……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們應該可以保有明年有機會不漲電價嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們努力……"],["黃委員珊珊：努力？"],["卓院長榮泰：讓民生穩定，這是我們第一目標。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以除了剛剛講的能夠節電，其實還有一個，台電要節流，台電不節流才是今天虧損擴大的主因，這邊也是審計部說的……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長思思念念就是這段話，他認為有信心讓台電的財務健全，就是台電本身的內部改造。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想部長來自企業，他一定不能容許自己的企業在那邊浪費嘛，對吧？","審計部又講了另一件事，進口燃煤每年送到臺灣來，然後需要卸貨，但如果卸貨太慢就要給一個滯船費，也就是船要停在那邊等你卸貨，從110年大概只有2億，到111年暴增到7億，那也就算了，112年貨送來了沒有辦法卸貨，台電賠了20億，20億是什麼？滯船費！也就是我們訂了貨，人家送來了，你沒有倉庫可以卸貨，然後讓它在船上等，就要賠償給船東，一年賠20億，剛剛院長說賠了四千多億，其中這樣就快30億了，部長，這是怎麼回事啊？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個命題我們回去會馬上嚴查，到底怎麼來訂這個合約的……"],["黃委員珊珊：這件事情不應該發生！部長，你來自企業界，庫存、倉庫都要準備好，然後貨來了要趕快卸，沒地方存也要去找地方存，你20億、30億拿來蓋倉庫都蓋完了，不是現在這樣的狀況。你可以說烏克蘭戰爭，我們運氣不好，但訂貨跟送貨都沒有規劃、沒有安排，然後一賠20億，現在告訴我說要漲電價，這樣百姓怎麼能接受？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回去馬上來清查這件事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，這個要清查，請1個月之內給本席一個報告，而且你也要給審計部報告，也要告訴全民漲價是因為漲到這種錢，漲到這種錢我們不甘心啊，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們來追查這件事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，時間暫停，主席，我要請環境部長。"],["主席：麻煩請環境部長備詢。"],["黃委員珊珊：這件事情需要報告，拜託，我覺得蠻離譜的。","接下去就是上一次，院長，我在總質詢也問過了，對於基隆協和電廠的未來，還有現在的四接環評，上次部長說沒有替代方案，環境部長說他不是經濟部的環保署，他會嚴格審查。院長，回答我，目前還沒有想到替代方案，我想知道，如果環評不過，院長跟部長兩位還是沒有替代方案嗎？要不要努力呢？要去努力，還是要去耍無賴呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前的努力是一步一步的收集更完整的資料，讓環評能夠通過。"],["黃委員珊珊：我也希望，所以你們要去找資料，我也很認真的幫你們找資料。剛剛聽到院長的報告，我很高興，因為我們把地熱列為臺灣未來再生能源其中一個重要的項目，所以接下來就要跟兩位報告，其實在基隆有地熱，基隆的地熱在2014年工研院就已經查到，基隆嶼下面有新瀨海底火山。","另外，協和電廠將來還是燃氣，它還是會借海造地，這會破壞生態。第二個，燃氣還是有所謂的戰爭風險，也會受到天候的影響，會受到國際能源的影響。地熱淨零碳排而且不用燃料，最重要的是24小時不受天候的影響，還有是穩定不求人，我想地熱應該是臺灣未來很重要的一個方向。基隆有這樣的資源，但是我很遺憾，我最近在調資料，經濟部沒有做過研究就說沒有替代方案，然後台電也說從來沒有探勘過，請問沒有探勘過你怎麼知道沒有？第三，2022年海大教授就說，其實我們希望能夠在基隆這個地方，把地熱列為考慮之一。","院長，我要說的是，你們要極其窮盡所有的努力去找到更多的方案，而不是直接把這個鍋甩給環境部，尤其是院長，我希望你很堅定的說，你剛剛報告講的，地熱是中華民國未來政策重要的重中之重，我希望它會成為卓院長的一個政績。好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。我們只要有任何的訊息，我要請經濟部督促台電跟相關的單位，能夠廣泛的去發掘，臺灣是一個蘊藏量非常豐富的……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！所以請不要輕易的說沒有替代方案，而且替代方案人家都告訴你了。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，地熱目前的成本相當的高。"],["黃委員珊珊：相當高，所以我們現在要借鏡其他國家。這是土耳其的資料，土耳其在2010年只有94MW，但是到2018年成長了將近12倍，也就是要做還是不做，成本一開始都很高，因為要探勘。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們現在的問題是，如同剛剛講的，我們不知道或我們從來沒去探勘過，也不曉得要把它當成國家重要的方向，土耳其的經驗就在眼前，做不做而已。","另外，我們也找到他們的方法，他其實很認真的在做一件事，第一個，他們的政府先把所有地質探勘的資料做完備，提供相關的數據，讓國際企業可以知道或是來協助、來參與；最重要的是提供稅務的減免、補貼的政策，甚至資金的援助；更重要的是先完善地熱的法規。這些環境造就以後，國際企業，就像風電跟光電業者，他就會來，了解這邊的資源之後，他就會評估是不是要在這邊做。","所以我要說的是，行政院只要做這三件事就好，你不用擔心成本，你把地熱的資料弄清楚，提供open data給所有的國際企業，自然會有人做詳細的評估。我相信院長也應該很清楚，我們碰到很多美國商會、歐洲商會的朋友都一直在說，希望得到完整的data而已，有data他們就可以做評估。院長，這件事情還沒開始做耶。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員這個意見，這是非常可行的方式，我們請經濟部下去做。"],["郭部長智輝：是。目前……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是為什麼還沒開始做，然後又變成重要政策？我希望的是，部長，你可以答應開始做這件事。"],["郭部長智輝：我們開始在做了，我們已經在宜蘭的員山挖了第一口深層的地熱井……"],["黃委員珊珊：我看到了。"],["郭部長智輝：這是在實驗中央研究院他們研究的技術，如果這個技術成功了，代表我們以後挖地熱的成本可以大幅下降，我們非常期待地熱的成本大幅下降，我們就可以快速的來啟動。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，部長，我很期待，因為我們希望如果可以啟動的話，基隆也可以成為你鎖定的一個地方，不管協和電廠未來的命運如何，我們都不應該放棄探勘基隆的地熱，這是第一點。接下來也可以看到美國的計畫，美國的計畫是從現在要提升，未來到2050年要將地熱提升到8.5%，也就是提升20倍以上，它的能源占比為占全美發電8.5%。根據我調的資料，我們臺灣目前在2024年地熱發電是剛剛院長說的7.29MW，占總發電量不到0.1%，然後好像我們的目標是到2030年地熱發電是200MW，占總發電量不到0.3%，部長，這個目標有沒有太低了一點？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，這個部分我們會滾動式的來檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：野心大一點吧！目標高一點吧！在地熱方面臺灣接下去的問題是，你看！國際的科技巨擘從Google到Meta都在發展地熱做它數據中心的電源，也就是說，像剛剛我講的，只要環境友善，只要法規明確，只要資料健全，這些大的廠商可能到臺灣來就會跟你說他們希望提供這些資料，你提不提得出來？現在的問題就是政府有沒有決心要做這件事。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會加強這一部分的開發。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得很難過，在2011年國科會早就說了，臺灣的地熱資源豐富，儲存量將近10座核四廠，從2011年到現在已經十多年了，竟然進展只有剛剛部長說今年才開始認真的探勘，其實進度稍嫌緩慢，而且在地熱方面臺灣蘊藏了400GW，宜蘭現在是8.5GW，所以其實宜蘭是一個很重要的方向，而且已經開始了，我們希望趕快加速的進行。另外，我希望院長可以答應，宜蘭、基隆都有豐富的地熱資源，要積極推動開發，第一個，探勘資料要完整，第二個，法規配套要健全，院長，你可以在這個會期給我一個初步的回應嗎？然後探勘資料可以納入基隆嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在已經有10處的潛勢區在探勘。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有基隆。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會請經濟部跟台電研究，因為在整個東北角地帶如果以地形來看，它是有相當的可能性。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長答應把基隆納進去，好不好？就是當你的配套之一。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們去進行研究，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後拜託環境部還是要嚴格審查。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長備詢。接下來請登記第2位郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":159,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃珊珊","郭國文","王鴻薇","張啓楷","邱議瑩","牛煦庭","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","何欣純","蔡易餘","洪申翰","張嘉郡","鍾佳濱","葉元之","謝龍介","廖偉翔","賴瑞隆","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","林德福"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1138401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1138401_00003","1138401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出賴清德政府能源配比及電價政策專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1138401_00010"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}