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請彭主委委員早辛苦了 主委我們看到這兩天川普他一副要當勛的樣子現在看起來民調對他越來越有利但是昨天你放了一個炮"},{"start":28.351,"end":46.837,"text":"講說 又講第二次喔 說臺灣偷了他的美國的晶片業這個 他這話一講啊 昨天台積電就暴跌啊臺灣的股市也暴跌到今天回來了然後 這個話 我就請問你啊"},{"start":50.567,"end":60.614,"text":"現在來講的話如果川普當選是不是對我們的晶片業比如半導體乃至於科技業非常不利會不會"},{"start":62.243,"end":85.601,"text":"先跟委員抱歉一下我不是個股市分析師對於這個事件其實我們有非常密切的關注包括我們有跟我們兩個交易所還有我們旗局的同仁都有密集的去研商相關不管任何結果的發生我們的資本市場應該會因應著相關的一些作為"},{"start":87.943,"end":111.479,"text":"這個都是有可能的那個結果的話我們都應該想像一下就陳儒剛剛委員指正就說昨天那個只是一個新聞然後就這樣但是我覺得市場還是有他理性的一面就是說他當然消息的衝擊難免但是覺得假設真的是有他實質的支撐我覺得還是會回歸到他真實的狀況可是為什麼消息我們都知道嘛"},{"start":113.099,"end":141.366,"text":"這個股市的消息面他一定是為什麼變成一個重大影響他變政策啊川普當選的話那機率越來越高看起來他當選的話他對臺灣來講的話他就要把晶片業通通到美國設廠對臺灣來講的話他一直在修理臺灣的晶片業難道不是利空當然是利空啊而且利空不會出境啊他當選你要利空才開始的"},{"start":144.086,"end":154.869,"text":"我這樣講你同意嗎因為我剛剛跟委員抱歉就是我們今晚會倒不會是針對這個我們是針對整體市場的沒有啊就整體市場啊這產業我不跟你講股市我是跟你講對產業的衝擊"},{"start":157.734,"end":180.576,"text":"對 就是說確實我想從我們從整個我們這個對資本市場一些的訊息的監控裡面這樣那個訊息確實會對我們的資本市場會產生影響這是不可否認的那我再請問你你剛說的營運的對策也就是說你有營運的劇本嗎 對不對因為我們一直都有都有 好 那如果是這樣子"},{"start":182.847,"end":208.953,"text":"你們不如name of field講一些比方說你的意義是什麼讓我們安心一下吧來來來講一下name of field對不對資本市場他有很多面向啦剛剛沒有錯沒有啦你就specific針對川普當選你的劇本是什麼啦這樣啦快點啦這公開來講我公開問你的啊可能我想這個部分都會影響到市場我想"},{"start":210.834,"end":232.852,"text":"這個委員抱歉我沒辦法在這邊跟各位講我們具體說怎樣我會採取什麼動作我想過去一直也沒有對外說明這是我們一個行政機關該有的準備作為好那我再換一個角度不要談這個那你就講因為這美國不管誰當選對我們的資本市場絕對是一個重大的一個政治上的衝擊對不對"},{"start":234.133,"end":258.888,"text":"是,不只誰當選,還有他的很多的利率政策,還有他對我們的一些貿易的相關的...好,那就請問你,那你的因應對策是什麼嗎?你這個到現在不願意講,那我就撇開,不要講川普,你的因應對策是什麼?我想齁,我們過去在這個半年來,其實臺灣的資本市場面臨到...不不,你不要跟我這個鋪陳啦,我實際有些人告訴我是什麼,比如說我準備更多的銀子"},{"start":261.189,"end":285.408,"text":"來護盤或者其他什麼的你告訴我們啊讓我們安心一下啊就是說我們其實過去在因應市場非理性的波動的時候我們一直都有一些因應的措施以及相關的步驟我想這個大概就是我能跟委員報告的地方假設它是一個很理性的反應市場的狀況的話我覺得這部分是一個資本市場它該有的功能但假設說已經很多消息面不正確或是一些非理性的"},{"start":285.948,"end":289.129,"text":"這會影響到我們的資本市場而且現在我們的股票市場正在交易中我這個頭髮在癢你屏幕一直抓我的手抓錯地方啦真的"},{"start":306.107,"end":320.98,"text":"沒有回答我的問題啊是就是說剛剛比如說我們舉那個你可以講嘛我們最最bottom line的因應就是國安基金啊那不是嗎對國安基金就是因應非理性的啊這你能說嗎什麼都不能說"},{"start":322.481,"end":347.489,"text":"國安基金是財政部在處理我們是管資本市場的啊你可以建議啊建議我們當然會有管道去同步在做這件事情啦因為比如說我跟委員並不是我兜圈子我跟委員報告比如說我們曾經在8月5號發生的一件事情就是我們史上最大的跌幅在前一天我們也降低一千點臺灣的股市很少在兩天之間"},{"start":349.369,"end":356.744,"text":"我們做過很多的預言跟推演所以我們包括後面很多事情我想大家都可以看到我們後來我們做了什麼事情有些"},{"start":358.027,"end":386.356,"text":"對外有限公司你說一般都不跟人家說的那根本是什麼問題我頭很癢還沒有抓頭你奇怪的那是什麼嗎是什麼如果不知道委員如果現在能夠抓我一定幫你抓對啊但是確實我覺得在我們主管機關的職責上面我們不會對這種情況做臆測而影響到市場那我想說我們背後呢因為我們有很多的經驗很多的方法其實我們很多實際上有問題因為你的工具真的有錢嘛"},{"start":387.356,"end":406.842,"text":"就那幾個嘛 對不對 我的漲跌幅、處理漲跌幅 對不對這個就是那幾個工具嘛 大家也知道我是要叫你name a few 你就a few 就不要耶 來來來 所以沒有答案就對了沒有答案但是我今天不方便跟委員報告 就是剛剛委員提到說我們有的政策工具我們有的政策工具"},{"start":410.233,"end":419.538,"text":"來我們來看喔你現在有沒有開放專業投資人可以附如同賣、賣比特幣、ETF是不是開放專業投資人嘛對不對專業的投資人那什麼時候開放給一般投資人"},{"start":432.708,"end":453.882,"text":"這個齁我覺得這個沒有一定的時間表因為其實我們社會上有兩種意見一種是說給大家期待啊那不是嗎為什麼提這個因為大家認為川普如果上來比特幣比特幣最近的這漲了才是因為因為川普的後勢看好他就在往上拉是沒錯對不對所以有些人想要我們投資紀律這樣也不行"},{"start":456.043,"end":475.035,"text":"其實應該講跟委員報告就是說我們這個是逐步開放其實很多國家連這個都沒辦法做那我們是先從專業投資人他風險承受力比較好的開始我們也必須看他執行的成效我們才能夠你只是有觀察期嘛那個觀察期多久半年我想觀察期的話半年可以嗎"},{"start":475.755,"end":492.735,"text":"半年可以是一個觀察點只是我們還是要看他的交易量還有交易的關係所以半年以後再決定要不要開放給一般投資人我們隨時可以評估假設我應該提到我們給半年來評估他的實施結果我可以這麼承諾就半年我會來評估一次"},{"start":493.416,"end":508.787,"text":"半年來評估要不要開放給一般投資人可以這樣說反正我們來評估真正執行的成效看看確實是否對這個我們的投資人是否真能夠完全能夠了解再過一兩天啊"},{"start":509.868,"end":530.756,"text":"在臺北有Fintech展金管會的角色是什麼這是我們跟金融總會跟金融業兩年一度的國際上非常重要的這樣的活動主要是金融總會的辦理我們來做指導單位你會去嗎我們通常主委開幕一定會去所以你去講話你要重點在哪裡"},{"start":532.048,"end":532.969,"text":"董事長、總經理列席業務報告"},{"start":555.33,"end":581.666,"text":"我們立場第一個就是我剛剛有簡單報告我們鼓勵金融科技的發展希望金融機構跟金融科技到現在為止你的BIN TAG比較那個就是開放網路銀行那幾家績效也不怎麼樣請問你網路銀行還要不要再開放網路銀行現在看起來是市場上短期沒有這個需求所以不要開放如果有人申請呢?"},{"start":583.507,"end":591.514,"text":"我們其實並沒有說禁止我只是說這個屬性其實我們還是要觀察市場的金融法人的結果你們你們"},{"start":593.001,"end":613.582,"text":"金融沙盒金融沙盒條例確實很多地方需要調我們也有委託委外營就做還要再調整監理沙盒在很多場合就是說比如說我們的落地機制那其實上是需要調整的因為否則它的誘因是比較不夠的好 我們一起來調整金融沙盒最後一個那個交易所的長官你其他人有嗎"},{"start":617.486,"end":619.068,"text":"財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會"},{"start":633.464,"end":648.552,"text":"交易額多少交易額的部分來講我們基本上現在是國際的探險的交易國內的是剛啟動而已那我們交易的金額基本上來講的話大概是一兩千萬"},{"start":650.18,"end":661.676,"text":"這等於沒有啊這等於市場等於沒有啊這問題在哪裡那就是因為你臺灣的廠商沒有讓他進來啊對不對沒有讓他一個他應該要進來啊現在來講已經要課碳費了"},{"start":665.24,"end":686.195,"text":"要大家開始來熟悉這個東西結果你現在來講的話你的探交所只有國際上探權在那裡買賣嘛阿供錢在那裡等於一個籌碼讓那裡可以股票市場裡面可以交易買賣對於臺灣的廠商真的需要探權的或者我想賣的"},{"start":687.336,"end":692.759,"text":"你有沒有提供個平台啊有,報告委員我們現在已經在10月我們在高雄launch了這個平台我們初期的時候有6個商品國內的探險的商品在架上"},{"start":704.638,"end":723.127,"text":"我時間到了但是我就問你一句話是不是全面開放我們當然是全面開放國內的探權的那個supply他如果有一些project經過我們環境部的許可的都可以上架來在14天的公告期裡面一般的股份可以賣到嗎"},{"start":724.712,"end":738.6,"text":"還是企業界還是沒有嘛還距離有一段距離啦對對現在因為我們10月才開始什麼時候可以開放到一般股民的可以參加我們先是不是先從法人開始市場要先開的大啦一兩千萬要賺錢一兩千萬這麼小好不好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝那個司法委員好謝謝委員接著請郭國文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"156283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade8e6ad6641b4b719a67ff13663af3209e03045fce0cf86b0fea4ab2856517d8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:44:52 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or Treat不給糖就搗蛋然後這句話之後這個臺股也應聲大跌那當然這個金管會有出來信心喊話"},{"start":59.645,"end":76.857,"text":"那我也相信說這個我們臺股的這個體質良好臺積電也是我們臺灣的驕傲但是美國大選總統大選就是下禮拜應該下禮拜二就開始那請問一下金管會有做好什麼樣的準備嗎這個問題剛剛也很多委員關心過因為這個是對臺灣來講就是美國總統大選的結果對臺股對臺灣都會有影響"},{"start":83.041,"end":111.668,"text":"因為大家都知道臺積電在我們臺股成交比重是一個很高的比重所以它的漲跌對於臺灣股市確實是有比較大的影響剛剛有幾位委員關心過了也問過說金管會有沒有什麼18套劇本來因應這些事情確實我們針對這個事情我們已經開過幾次會然後也跟我們的交易所我們有固定的這樣一個機制去討論以及因應的原理那我們會做好萬全的準備"},{"start":115.029,"end":139.594,"text":"金管會有沒有跟我們相關的部會或行政院有沒有召開相關部會來因應這次美國總統大選對於我們這一個臺灣政治經濟的影響現在我想院級的他們有他自己的這樣的作業我們金管會本來就有一個這樣的機制在運作我們主要是由金管會跟我們兩個交易所還有我們旗艇那你們萬全的做法大概是怎麼樣的做法"},{"start":140.509,"end":166.603,"text":"就剛剛有委員也有詢問過我說我們有一套的行政的措施我們會在適時在適當的環境之下若出現了一個我們不預期的狀況我們會來提出適當的方法來處理什麼是不預期的狀況因為我們在很多地方都已經說過了我們是一個我們在意的是整個市場交易的秩序然後以及說它的所謂的這個交易的"},{"start":167.663,"end":189.236,"text":"穩定性所以我們在過去只要有比如說是屬於非理性的這樣的影響因素的話我們就會採取必要的措施所以這個美國總統大選的結果會是一個非理性的影響臺灣股市的一個變數嗎當然有些是基本面的因素有些心理面的因素通常這個非理性都是心理面的因素好 那非理性的因素應該短期就會過去了嘛"},{"start":189.716,"end":207.421,"text":"通常我們從過去的經驗看到還是會短期會受到心裡面的衝擊長期還是要靠基本他們的體質的支撐好那再請教一下這個主委這個之前這個有大家有在呼籲說針對這個竹林公司但是好像這個影子銀行一樣"},{"start":208.121,"end":230.787,"text":"所以有呼籲要制定這個融資公司法那金管會的態度就是說你們現在有這個委外做這個研究的報告那預計年底會出爐那時候再看說是不是要訂專法但是本席有看到說你們最近有兩個措施推斷有可能這個不會推定這個制定這個融資公司的管理法那第一個就是說你們有請銀行公會這個"},{"start":233.069,"end":242.171,"text":"訂定銀行對融資租賃業的這個受信實務之律規範那第二個就是說嚴定將一定資本額達以上規模的上市櫃融資租賃公司"},{"start":242.945,"end":265.62,"text":"納入金融消費者保護法適用範圍大概是兩個一個是受信銀行公會的受信實務之律規範另外一個是修改金保法請問一下第一個有關於要求銀行公會對租賃公司受信融資的受信實務之律規範目前進行的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":266.969,"end":288.874,"text":"這個的部分因為我們其實對這個問題很關切因為大家對這個融資公司在社會上這個大家的疑慮主要是在於消費金融的部分那這一塊的話我們確實說因為其實他們很多的資金如果是來自於銀行的話我們確實可以從銀行跟他往來之間進行相關的這樣一個規範所以我們就請他們訂一個這樣一個自立規範"},{"start":291.015,"end":317.675,"text":"來針對這個大家所關切的議題特別是針對中古車還有BMPL就是那個先買後付這部分訂立一個規定還有對他們的貸後管理我們透過銀行來管理我想現在這部分應該已經已經開始上路了嘛就是已經準備要上路了對請問一下進度怎麼樣按照如果說媒體所披露的說這個受限使用守則有四大要件第一個就是說檢視放款規模大小那第二個呢"},{"start":319.196,"end":328.199,"text":"檢視特定族群的販款集中度簽竊結書對中股車業融資或BMPL以建立風險機制或在內部簽訂消費者保護的規定才能取得銀行的販款銀行必須在連徵中心資料上註記請問這四個方向是朝這四個方向走嗎?"},{"start":341.414,"end":363.648,"text":"原則上是朝這四個方向因為當初我們其實要銀行公會訂的時候有給他們幾個原則這是你們給他們原則嗎對,原則上比如說像BNPL還有中古車消費者保護這個是我們非常強調的原則所以說這個如果那請問一下那這一個由銀行公會的這一個受限實務之律規範何時會上路"},{"start":366.991,"end":377.606,"text":"報告委員他們已經報過來我們內部再做一些調整之後然後給他們的之後他們應該很快就能上路很快是指說11月還是12月"},{"start":380.441,"end":405.53,"text":"原則上應該是年底前年底前會上路因為這就是由銀行端來強化受信的管理嘛是的那就是說第二個這個修改金保法那修改金保法就是說你們把一定資本額以上這個上市上櫃的公司那當然目前大概就是三家啦中租、育農跟和潤然後呢按照金保法的規範"},{"start":407.05,"end":420.119,"text":"將金融服務業比照一般的金融業來納管那請問一下如果按照這個修改這個金保法的規定的話這個是只要行政命令公告還是要修法"},{"start":421.122,"end":438.454,"text":"這個不用修法因為我們按照金保法第3條我們只要公告他的話就會納入我們的行為管理第3條就是說經其他主管機關公告的金融服務業那所以是把這個租賃公司把它視為這個金融服務業嗎因為我們對他的行為納管機構沒有"},{"start":441.255,"end":463.868,"text":"對把行為納管機構要未來機構還不是對對機構要未來有專法才對機構但是他們的這一個行為對比如說他做了跟比如說銀行類似的行為他就應該受到相同的對消費者的保護的機制好那請問一下那這個效力是怎麼樣你納入金保法管理之後跟沒有納入他的差別在哪裡他約約束性"},{"start":464.928,"end":479.414,"text":"差別在哪裡那當然因為假設納入金保法的內容就會有罰則若違反了這裡面的相關比如說適合度還有資訊揭露、風險告知還有契約公平性都會有罰則是對租賃公司的罰則"},{"start":480.334,"end":509.59,"text":"對就是因為他被納入以後他就會會受到金融消費者保護法裡面主要的內容我剛剛跟委員報告那幾項如果他沒有做到這些的話就會被處罰那這個推動上面有困難嗎當然現在這個這部分需要比如說我們先要先初步的跟租賃公會跟相關的業者溝通他們同意以後呢我們就會把他納入他們會同意嗎我們正在溝通中就是說我看這個媒體的報導好像主力蠻大的"},{"start":510.25,"end":532.483,"text":"沒有我覺得應該是我們還在努力因為這個畢竟是你們溝通力道還不夠大嗎還是我們會持續的來努力因為這個是你們公告就可以嘛當然公告的過程當中還是要跟他們溝通當然我們現在政府需要跟因為他畢竟這個本質上並不是我們現在所大家所認知的所謂的我們金管會金管的金融服務業"},{"start":533.163,"end":549.785,"text":"但是我們希望透過這個過渡式的管理希望趕快把國人關切這個內容也希望他們基於對社會的期待趕快的加入這個部分的那年底之前能夠公告嗎這部分我們不敢預期進度但我們會盡快的跟他們加速協調的過程"},{"start":551.227,"end":570.548,"text":"這個應該是要給一個Date Line你們才會去做當然你們已經有做了但是如果說這個他們有一些這個一些阻力然後呢那你們這一次溝通那也不知道溝通溝通溝通到哪個時候啊總是還有個期限嘛那自己主委心中的這個期限希望哪個時候能夠這個能夠公告"},{"start":570.848,"end":592.041,"text":"因為它裡面還牽涉到範圍的問題當然大家有人說是不是有那三家有人說是不是上市櫃有沒有說上市櫃就是三家啊他們也佔了大概所有的這個受訓大概九成以上是不是工會的會員還是說金融機構所屬的子公司這些範圍其實還要再來考量一下我想"},{"start":592.941,"end":617.303,"text":"委員這個的督促我們其實我們對這個東西其實是非常認真而且我覺得是很審慎的我知道就是在這個專法出來之前你們就是至少這兩個方向有在做那另外一個你剛才說這個銀行公會希望說在年底之前至少能夠那個規範能夠先出來我們用多管齊下希望這個秩序所以我也希望說這個納入金保法在年底之前"},{"start":618.344,"end":637.176,"text":"能夠公告我們朝這個方向來做好不好那會不會因為這樣子其實你們就不想設立專法了這是另外一回事因為跟我們報告專法如果容易的話這個案子從85年開始討論到現在我知道啦所以我覺得這牽涉到整個很"},{"start":638.197,"end":650.58,"text":"比較複雜的範圍我們希望是透過假設能夠分階段讓我們知道這個管理的這樣的方式以後接下來我們的專法、納管就比較有一個輪廓就比較容易達到社會的共識所以你們委員會的報告是年底會出來"},{"start":652.297,"end":676.262,"text":"就是有關融資公司專法我們委外的報告對委外的報告年底會有個初稿出來好那我還是希望說這個年底能夠公告落入金保法我們朝這方向努力好謝謝我這還有兩分鐘嗎還是時間到了時間到了時間到了喔好好好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝坤城委員那接著我們休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"156278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade56da518c6ea30f8467ff13663af3209e03045fce0cf86b0f4447f47351fe5e595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:33:52 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各位我現在要說的是這麼多年從112年到113年我們有一個叫做行政程序法"},{"start":230.47,"end":247.759,"text":"行政程序法是人民來申請兩個月之內你要做處理沒有處理你可以延長一次四個月但是現在有二三十家來申請每一家在政企局審核的時間都超過法定的四個月也就是政企局到底想管還是不想管"},{"start":248.72,"end":273.218,"text":"如果你不想管你就用各種理由拖延不審查第二個你想管你就請大家都進來給你管新的制度是大家都要進來給我管但是我剛講了76%的營業在做實際虛擬資產的操作的76%佔比的業者我們不管我們現在到底是怎樣要管還是不要管"},{"start":273.778,"end":292.624,"text":"市長跟委員報告一下剛才委員提到那個審查的時間其實同仁在這方面都有注意到那很多會有往往反是因為他們的資料的資料不正不齊但是放在政企局也是因為你太忙了沒有我有去查對他們但是我的意思是說我們的目的是要管"},{"start":293.703,"end":315.741,"text":"我們希望說業者都被你管他來營業他正登當當營業而不是這樣子他在外面營業我們管不了他我們保護了26家那幾家不管所以但是大部分都在跟他買我實在不懂我們到底要幹嘛就報告委員當然我們的態度不會是這樣我只是說剛剛我先簡單回答一下他們過去所有的審核時間我都有看過大家都在"},{"start":317.331,"end":343.476,"text":"兩個月以內一個月1.5個月最多希望是那我現在我們有很多的數字其實我們不要講細節是我們要趕的是主委的態度就是說要管就認真的管而且他在臺灣實際有在接受國人的相關的交易我們就應該讓他備管而且將來發生事情我們可以納入他在我們的行前防治相關的安全網裡面這才是我們要做的不是嗎"},{"start":344.156,"end":370.294,"text":"當然剛剛有委員提醒到就是說其實我們為了保護國人我們當然希望他是在我們的管轄範圍我們才有比較沒錯我的意思是說要人要錢主委幫正其舉他如果人力不夠我覺得還是要幫助他如果他審查需要這麼久這麼慢但是我的立場是很簡單我們洗錢防治相關的規範進來之後我們希望所有的業者都能夠被納管"},{"start":371.414,"end":393.529,"text":"2、已經在路上跑跳的這些業者而且他被警示的業者麻煩政協局認真查該罰就罰他沒有進來你也沒有核准但是他一樣在營業然後沒有任何影響這誰要被你管反正我照樣做我繼續做我的事反正你也管不了我我們不是要這些業者在外面當畫歪之地吧對吧"},{"start":394.91,"end":411.684,"text":"主委這是態度問題12月1號上路比如說12月1號開始如果說沒有登記的話這是有刑責的重罰而且拜託你們審查快一點有沒有是不是該不該讓他核准不准就不准"},{"start":412.708,"end":432.15,"text":"合準就合準不是這樣拖拖拉拉好嗎這是第一步所以麻煩政企局我覺得他們人力也不夠這個業務突然掉在他們頭上其實也不是他們熟悉的業務而且接下去我還是認為主委你應該去爭取另外一個新的金融科技局包括這些電子支付"},{"start":434.132,"end":446.99,"text":"虛擬資產都不應該是原來的這些原來本來就不熟悉這些業務的單位來處理我覺得你要除了爭取中央的預算之外也希望能夠幫這些金管會的同仁爭取到更多的人力"},{"start":447.816,"end":472.631,"text":"這一定是我們努力的方向好 局長請回我想接下來是一個新的問題也就是臺灣已經進入超高齡社會了那我們現在大概預估將來會有92萬人有長照的需求那國人的平均臥床時間大概是7到8年所以主委我想問一下我們曾經在2022年的時候推動所謂的補充型長照的商業保險"},{"start":473.692,"end":502.25,"text":"但是中間發生了防疫險所以大家都嚇壞了現在我們還有沒有這樣的計畫而且現在長照的需求越來越高在沒有商業保險比較便宜的情況之下民眾還是要靠所謂的外勞、機構但是幾乎是傾家蕩產這些補充式的長照保險之前是商業險它比一般的長照保險保費低了25%到60%但是目前停下來"},{"start":503.251,"end":524.399,"text":"主委怎麼辦我們全部能夠再爭取一下讓各保險公司能夠推出所謂的補充市場照商業保險因為它本質上還是個商業保險還是要尊重商業保險公司他們的一些意願我們過去推動類似的保單比如說微型保單還是像比如說我們的小兒中老保險我覺得這個很好啊對"},{"start":525.339,"end":550.727,"text":"他在這個政策上風險比較容易控制其實保險公司基於他社會的這個責任也非常的熱烈的響應我想做但長照險我想這個我們推出這個概念我們是希望我們的廠商開始思考這個問題但是我們過去的經驗是他們的反應是比較保守的比較覺得未來長照不管我們的政策還是未來的這些成本比較難控制所以這部分還需要時間來醞釀跟宣導"},{"start":552.307,"end":573.764,"text":"所以主委我們現在是希望將來應該說從現在開始如果假設我們的超高齡人口是快速老化其實我們的長照政府每年八九百億其實很快就是沒有不足而且最重要的是國人平均的臥床時間真的太長那個時間真的會讓長照杯葛不斷發生即使政府有長照服務但是"},{"start":574.344,"end":596.769,"text":"真正重症失能反而受不到這些長照服務我們希望將來希望推動所謂的比照健保的社會保險但是商業保險還是就像我們有健保可是我們還是會有醫療險這兩個相輔相成才能讓大家將來對於長照的負擔減輕所以第一個我們希望在政府部門不是只有"},{"start":597.449,"end":620.056,"text":"做長照2.0、3.0而是將來用社會保險的方式第二個我們希望金管會能夠鼓勵業者其實大家一起來承擔將來長照服務的需求我想這個才是中華民國我們走向超高齡社會之後可能第一步要走的路確實商會保險怎麼樣跟我們的健保做一個補充或是一個協同我想是未來大家可以來思考"},{"start":620.376,"end":645.827,"text":"因為我們以社會保險為底商業保險為輔加上最後才是家人的照顧我們現在的問題是家人照顧放在第一位第二位長照服務長照服務也只能限時限量那真正失能反而受不到照顧好嗎主委是這個部分我還是希望金管會能夠跟業者大家一起來共商對於長照將來可能的需求是好嗎謝謝謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":646.567,"end":650.036,"text":"好 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是有沒有就是說去討論這一些詐騙案它有沒有地區的一個特性譬如說它是在臺南被騙的它是在六都被騙的還是六都以外的區域被騙的呢你們有沒有做過這樣子的一個我們現在的資料你們是用總體的資料並沒有按照地區別啦那如果未來有需要我們可以看看有沒有在有沒有這個可能性來做這個統計"},{"start":175.077,"end":189.526,"text":"可是如果那你們就是進入到大水庫的一個概念上所以你們沒有特別去蒐證就是說那個到底是這個被詐騙的一個區域是在哪裡那主委你的經驗裡頭被詐騙比較多的是在都會區還是會都會區呢"},{"start":194.469,"end":221.664,"text":"你的經驗、經驗法則因為我們看到他們大家都是使用那個社群媒體跟比如說我們最常用的Meta跟Line的這樣一個組合來做那本來就是每個人都有機會會碰到對所以那當然這個部分的話如果說按照這個應該是蠻均勻分配但這跟我們的市大能力有關這我現在是沒有這樣的數據啦那法務部可能提供給你嗎"},{"start":224.09,"end":238.855,"text":"我們在做的主要是資訊的溝通跟跟互相的這個協同作業像比如說我們的臨櫃關懷就是跟警政單位就是非常非常密切的合作還有就是我們的疑似詐騙的帳戶有沒有這些都是我們"},{"start":239.335,"end":252.545,"text":"好 主委你特別提到了零貴的一個關懷那如果就是說我們如果從這一個零貴的關懷在今年那個前7個月的時候我們金融機構對於零貴關懷我們主柵了近7000件喔"},{"start":257.449,"end":280.976,"text":"那我們攔下了台幣47億這個是一個非常大的一個數字那所以我們也是從這個數字裡頭2023年到今年的7月底以前金融機構透過零貴的一個關懷主詐的一個金額其實已經超過120億了那如果我們大概可以推算你一年主詐的金額大概有70億"},{"start":283.137,"end":299.556,"text":"這70億的話你有沒有就是說做什麼樣的一個方式這70億是繳回國庫嗎還是就是說你們有分配到就是銀行裡頭對於主詐詐騙的過程裡頭可以更靈活那也平衡安全的一個考量"},{"start":300.177,"end":321.415,"text":"注重隱私就是簡單的講說金管會在這一方面有沒有提供銀行、零貴、人員相關的SOP或是演訓的一個培訓還是攔阻成功的一個獎金最重要是獎金有沒有這樣子的一個這個各位報告其實剛剛委員提到其實我們在第一線的銀行也非常的辛苦"},{"start":321.995,"end":348.016,"text":"對而且他們過去真的那個真的付出了非常非常多的努力保護剛剛委員提到我們這一年半的時間就這樣一件一件攔攔下了120億是那這個當然就是各銀行其實那我目前金管會並沒有提供這樣的獎金但是我們會我們是非常支持銀行的這個他們各個銀行要非常支持這些行業們像比如說我們在8月8月的時候呢主委那我想請教你這個120億跑到哪裡去了"},{"start":350.478,"end":374.623,"text":"那個就是民眾沒有被詐騙成功的錢那是民眾的錢對這是回到民眾的錢那所以這些銀行的櫃台銀行這些同仁是不是值得鼓勵當然當然他們也需要就是說特別的一個訓練那銀行局有沒有這樣子的一個規劃我們像比如說我們剛剛8月5號的時候我們把那個十大那個"},{"start":375.503,"end":378.285,"text":"有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份"},{"start":398.739,"end":419.548,"text":"銀行端來好好的鼓勵我們這些的辛苦的行員們對那接著就是說打造式法我們已經三讀通過了今晚會議計在這個年底完成配套的執法那你這個配套的執法有沒有一個時程的規劃有當然就是我們剛才其實委員有提到本來這次叫年底的但是我們這次呢會"},{"start":420.899,"end":447.356,"text":"按照行政院的指示有可能提前一個月所以說我們這部分希望能夠盡快來實施讓它具有法源讓它具有法源是的好那主委我想不論是黃詐騙還是促進數位金融的一個應用這個相關的宣傳相關的宣傳跟教育都非常的重要那這個失智證的一個提供的一個服務友善的一個金融一條街這一個那個就是在"},{"start":447.956,"end":459.71,"text":"找機會跟主委做探討特別我有一個比較特別的這個是我不知道主委看過這本書沒有這本書是金融的基礎教育學生的手冊"},{"start":461.092,"end":481.507,"text":"那我們認真的把它要回來要回來就是研究了那我們覺得說這個手冊其實它是適用在小學三年級以上三年級到六年級可是它的內容寫得太深了那為什麼一年級到三年級沒有這樣的一個手冊呢你如何的用錢"},{"start":484.126,"end":501.585,"text":"這個普及那個金融交易的普及我覺得是在最基層的扎根還有就是說你們這一套書其實已經編了很久了內容你應該我等一下那個送給你你拿回去參考看看內容太深了啦"},{"start":503.22,"end":528.702,"text":"這個我想小學生要看得懂你這一本書顯然其實是非常辛苦的非常辛苦的所以我覺得這個基礎教育是有一點這個學生手冊是有一點就是好像是應付了事編得非常非常的不好這個內容我們來精進對所以這個也是要跟就是那個"},{"start":530.373,"end":546.912,"text":"主委做一個建議那當然走入校園跟社區的辦理金融知識的一個宣傳的活動那你們從2006年開始金管會就結合銀行局就在不斷的那個就是做這個場次的宣傳到了2022年你們總共辦了7846場"},{"start":551.337,"end":574.212,"text":"看起來好像人數很多那你宣傳的對象就從國小三年級到六年級那一直就是這個有很多很多一個那個就是各種面向那我要針對的就是說你走入校園跟社區辦理金融知識的一個宣傳的活動這個前四大其中有一個單位"},{"start":575.253,"end":583.143,"text":"特別的有意思你在國小你用了27%可是你矯正機關你竟然用了15%這個矯正機關為什麼要用15%這個是一個非常諷刺的一個問題"},{"start":589.963,"end":604.19,"text":"我覺得這個緩差緩差的一個場域是不是因為在矯正機關裡頭其實這些人這些人基本上是不是應該就是接受就是金融知識的一個宣傳嗎"},{"start":605.711,"end":621.631,"text":"這根文報告主要是因為我們的矯正機關是法務部那邊他會主動的要求我們提供這個課程因為他也是他矯正這個工作的一部分我們提供一個所以他這個比重會看起來會比較高一點這是因為他本來就是有這個課程提供請我們"},{"start":622.532,"end":646.906,"text":"可是事實上主委你把這個放在繳稅機關因為你們顯然是說被動的嘛你們不是主動的嘛那如果是主動的話你把它放在這個地方我覺得效果是不好的況且如果你們要真的嚴格上來講的話你們每一個月其實每一個月你們可以辦200場那16年來你應該不是只有累積不到8000場"},{"start":648.627,"end":664.498,"text":"所以說基本上就是說你應該加強辦理況且你辦理的地方我覺得這個還是有待我們再修正你這個緩差感很大讓人家覺得很諷刺為什麼是在這個矯正機關我認為建議建議應該在幾個地方可以帶來更好的宣傳效果在大專院校"},{"start":671.903,"end":693.741,"text":"職業訓練的那個中心因為年輕人他要進入職場了嘛所以他必須要很好的一個理財的觀念金融的一個知識嘛那甚至在社區中心還是公民活動中心因為這個是居民聚集的地方他其實對於老百姓他就是說他有一般的一個債務的一個規劃有實際的需要還是說他預算"},{"start":694.161,"end":711.912,"text":"他要怎麼樣去規劃他的退休的一個資金還有企業跟職場的一個培訓公共圖書館主委我想這個就是金融知識的宣傳顯然我們還要再多做加強謝謝確實剛才比說大專業校確實我們是未來的重點"},{"start":713.373,"end":720.317,"text":"這本書我覺得有很多探討的內容沒有注音,內容太深了,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade3a33350a692a916f67ff13663af3209e03045fce0cf86b0f52fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:08:18 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對這個投資保單大賣的時候有投書這個彭教授所吸收資金後的委託他業進行投資這是否是保險所鼓勵的除了導致基金全部轉往投資型保單商品之外在引流這一巨巨大的民間油資去處時是否應該有更明確的方向跟做法"},{"start":366.918,"end":392.157,"text":"都是在把這個投資型商品的銷售熱潮下應該要好好的審思主委你對這個彭教授的內容有沒有感受到有熟悉感阿有阿這是我一向的主張對這是你一向的主張阿你的主張是這樣子阿你的這個具體的解決方式是怎樣子你難道要把台灣的資金任由外資這樣子牽著鼻子走跑來跑去嗎當然不是當然不是我剛剛問"},{"start":393.098,"end":413.574,"text":"跟我們報告的意思就是說我會寫那篇文章主要是提醒就是說我們要均衡就是說我們今天的保險的功能它本來就有一個投資型保單它本來就是兼具有投資的功能它本來就是這樣但是另外還有一個保障的功能那我只是說我們通常在景氣的時候呢很多保險公司呢大概就會以這個為主"},{"start":414.335,"end":442.896,"text":"那其實上要考慮到未來當不景氣的時候這其實上是未來可能有生意風險你客氣了你這個說法你就是對這個投資型保單感到高度的質疑嘛你只是點到為止而已嘛他有兩面性他有兩面性對你有兩面性啦對啊你包牌的寫法啦我沒有說啦他因為損益是由客戶來致富啦這是一個他很重要的特徵我必須跟你說啦你上個禮拜比較老比較直接啊了當了說就是美喬商會跟歐洲商會在找"},{"start":443.576,"end":469.729,"text":"人、遊說啦我跟你說這個遊說的人不只是美喬商會跟這個外商而已還有包括你們內部的人你們內部人的立場其實跟這個外商都站在一致的立場他拼命的遊說啦我不要講說誰啦以前在政企局啦現在在保險局啦你要搞清楚啦這也在考驗你的領導統一的能力啊是謝謝委員提醒你們後面的金管會員有在笑啦"},{"start":473.591,"end":490.249,"text":"沒有我想主要是這樣因為其實站在一個政府立場我們不只哪個哪個單位或機構團體他的提的建議我們都會考慮但我們不會只以他的意見為主投資人的錢很重要儘管會最重要把關者就是你保護投資人你保護他推進火坑好不好"},{"start":490.749,"end":516.038,"text":"當然當然這我們會來努力你如果真的要壯大投信的話也不是壯大國外投信要壯大本土投信要壯大本土優質的投信你之前就提過壯大投信要從什麼開始從你們自己提到的躍進計畫開始啦你們躍進計畫從2015年就有了最近呢今年又有做一些修改簡單的講要精進啦目標要分期管理啦第三要差別待遇啦"},{"start":517.498,"end":537.454,"text":"你把齊頭市的平等應該稍微放寬一下不要每一次每一個投信單位都只有一個你應該把級距稍微拉高表現好的我商品你提出的商品我加速審理或者把那個額度提高鼓勵啊正常的壯大投信壯大本土投信壯大本土優質的投信啊不是嗎是的"},{"start":539.315,"end":567.77,"text":"那你這個基金計畫要好好改一改嘛我們其實一直都在調整啦剛剛委員的指正我們會期讓大家投信你沒有把資金留到臺灣結果把資金拱手讓人去進行一些高風險的商品的操作那怎麼對我叫你這個要好好檢討啦我真的反對你這個把這個這個在全委開放啦最後我再跟你討論一下有關於這個這個南非幣的事情我上禮拜請教於你你有沒有想到什麼好的因應方法"},{"start":568.935,"end":594.612,"text":"現在當然就是說我已經有指證了我們就去先把這個所謂的曝險部位我們先做一個瞭解再去分析他們的屬性以及看看他們的到底會有多大的影響到底這是一個什麼樣的影響比如說我們知道銀行跟保險跟證券那當然現在是以證券的金額是佔比較多你們之前公布的金融商業有641億的公債南非必計價的基金有2265億但是少"},{"start":596.994,"end":612.305,"text":"作為計算本期幫你加一個是投資型的保單368億再加上這個南非幣的存款就是我是從央行這邊調來的總共是4216億啦總額是這樣子的,目前的金額高達4000億以上其一,其二你要怎麼做"},{"start":613.806,"end":642.518,"text":"我講白一點我跟你探討一個問題啦這個問題其實是過去常常提到外交就是所謂的金錢外交我覺得要如何變成形成一個金融的外交台灣的金融實力可以作為一個外交一個很重要的槓桿的一個武器啊你身為這個主委你應該要善用我們的金融實力啊所以我上週特別提醒你這一點你說你沒有注意到那我給你一個禮拜的時間你還是沒回答出來還是要跟我回答資金的規模資金的規模跟我估計又不一樣"},{"start":644.338,"end":665.963,"text":"可以怎麼做?當然就是我們假設我們商品的話先以風險處理為先那接下來我們來看說因為假設看它的政情變化我們怎麼樣去因應這個措施至少我們未來對這個商品的發行或什麼我們會有一些不一樣的看法發行有不一樣的看法?就緊縮?限制?當然就是未來可能就是未來那現有的呢?"},{"start":667.203,"end":683.958,"text":"現有的部分它很多都是有相關契約的規定有沒有可能南非幣計價可以改成美元計價有沒有可能這個當然是契約當時的約定啦我想是這部分可能那你去看看嘛這第二個有沒有可能把這一個風險懸殊把它提高成10倍有沒有可能"},{"start":685.494,"end":713.441,"text":"這不是契約了吧這風險權術的部分我們要再來評估它真正的風險才能夠決定那有沒有可能限制金融商業投資南非國債的部分限期出脫有沒有可能我想所有的方法都可以評估中這業者都是你在管的嘛我已經跟你講三招了嘛第四招有沒有可能把金融機構從事南非交易者降低它ESG的平等分數有沒有可能全部都是你的權利欸"},{"start":714.608,"end":736.639,"text":"主委 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義銀是模範啦義銀只有12億他在這個部分的貸款700億"},{"start":153.647,"end":163.953,"text":"7000多億裡面他只有12億當然華銀、彰銀要再加強一下啦這個有100多超過133億、148億華銀、彰銀當然對不動產這個貸款高一兆5000多億那你有133億這個比例也很高最惡劣的就是土地銀行"},{"start":176.226,"end":188.981,"text":"土地兩大可以推說我是專業我就是做土地啊做房地產融資可是他變相的在幫助這些不肖的建商去買地、養地、圈地"},{"start":190.337,"end":214.597,"text":"那所以你認為呢你認為這個該不該銀行去管該不該我們金管會來管你認為中央銀行加注的這條限制是不是在貸款條件銀行受信貸款給建商的時候那貸款合約上面就註明了如果建商違反合約規定"},{"start":215.597,"end":227.906,"text":"這些銀行局要不要管?你認為?報告委員上禮拜委員有關接這問題那我們就有去了解剛剛數字確實像委員提到的在2116億那我們這個部分這是一個"},{"start":235.051,"end":235.792,"text":"會處理要怎麼處理是要求建商"},{"start":251.822,"end":270.936,"text":"應該立即還款立即動工要怎樣他要馬上動工欸動工他要有規劃要有申請建築執照等等我看他們就是拖著耗著嘛他們可能就是憑借跟銀行良好的關係我在"},{"start":272.634,"end":301.388,"text":"三個月前我就列出十大二職建商貸款金額喔他們負債金額這十大都負債金額都70%以上最高的負債金額竟然高達89%天啊他用我們善良百姓辛苦賺的錢存債銀行的錢被他們用那麼低的利息拿去買土地"},{"start":303.099,"end":327.825,"text":"來炒作房地產然後逼使我們國民我們這些消費者們去購買他們高價的房地這是最薄可物的事情欸那要把關的首當其衝你啦!金管會跟財政部財政部也有關九大公營行戶董事長、總經理都他派的"},{"start":330.156,"end":344.724,"text":"關股這些股份都在他手上當然啦我認為你們銀行局的責任是比較大因為銀行局有專業的這個金融專業可以去應該去查查不是嗎"},{"start":346.008,"end":374.207,"text":"那這個責任是不是由金管會由你們銀行局負責那你要再來你要怎麼處置他們處置這些預期的建商收回還是怎麼樣報告委員這個齁我們如果查到有這個情況的時候呢我們會請他做改善改善當然有些比如說可能調整那個貸款的條件還有就是有一些比如說後續真的跟原來目的不符的話那可能是要做一些後續的處理"},{"start":375.908,"end":400.778,"text":"因為我們已經提那個查核已經提改善意見請他們來處理這個事情你多久給我一個答案比方說土銀啊1180億這麼高的金額請他詳細列出來早點工作給他做嘛叫土地銀行說這1180億到底哪幾家啦是不是那些二值的建商"},{"start":402.168,"end":423.067,"text":"有一些建商我上次舉過這十大惡質建商他不只炒作房地產他不只高負債他在工地安全這個我們企業我們政府正在希望推動ESG他完全違反ESG各項對企業"},{"start":425.27,"end":451.239,"text":"他們的要求企業主該負的責任沒有一項做得到公安最多的也是這十大要不然就是不幸讓工人身亡、重傷一堆臺中那一件還搞到臺中的捷運垮掉這些都歷歷在目就是這些會犯這個規的同樣在貸款的時候也是有那麼大的問題"},{"start":452.386,"end":477.584,"text":"他就是先借到再說啦借到阿你們賠最大啦他就是這個意思阿人也鹹鹹阿不然你來拖是這樣子嗎是這樣子嗎還有順便查一查這是不是有人為的勾結啦有人為的勾結因為擺著這個這麼明確你錢就是要借他去購買空地去炒作土地"},{"start":479.809,"end":488.948,"text":"這很清楚的嘛我認為銀行金融業尤其土地銀行他是我們公營行庫裡面非常非常"},{"start":490.663,"end":513.4,"text":"高數值的人員去的航空百分之百關股結果竟然這樣子我高度強烈質疑這個有勾結好不好那另外我先前就講我們推亞太金融中心我們亞太資產管理中心我們希望國外的資金來給我們臺灣管結果我們自己的資金我就舉授權就好"},{"start":515.268,"end":538.732,"text":"三十二兆的資金有百分之七十二十二兆跑去國外投資我們自己的錢跑去給國外管難道我們要說服世界各國說你們的錢要讓我管那奇怪所以這一點矛盾這造成兩個大問題第一個問題我們在國外海外投資買這些債券基金匯率的風險第二個戰爭的風險"},{"start":543.756,"end":566.013,"text":"兩個多月前、三個月前就跟你提到說我們有7家受險總共持有1357億的惡債惡債惡國的債券這些現在風險都來啦從5月開始他們就不給付利息啦問他們要利息他們說戰爭打完了再來算天啊1357億現在"},{"start":569.454,"end":583.165,"text":"光這7家授權公司他們抓預期的損失預期信用時他們已經抓了210億1357億就抓了210億做預期損失這很天...我覺得這個實在是很莫名其妙二屋打仗臺灣中槍二屋戰爭啊我們受傷會很奇怪嗎"},{"start":599.69,"end":619.851,"text":"我們遠在地球的這一頭我們又沒招誰又沒惹誰哪有去賠這麼多錢星光人獸的資本氏族率也因為他也加入這個啊1357億我相信你們去查就知道所以導致他資本氏族率也受到影響啊"},{"start":621.687,"end":635.952,"text":"喔當然希望能說還有其他問題啦這個改天再說但是我認為這個部分要立刻這個趕快立刻積極做也就是說你們應該洽請財政部洽請財政部就針對這些資金我們放眼放眼要他們"},{"start":642.018,"end":652.506,"text":"陸續回到臺灣投到我們臺灣的公共建設他們那些藉口通通不能算他說第一點我們臺灣利率低第二點他說我們臺灣市場小沒得投資"},{"start":653.783,"end":674.581,"text":"利率低這些受險公司也是因為這麼低的利率我承認我們臺灣利率低但是受險公司也是以我們的低利率下去算期望值賣給我們的投保戶不是這樣嗎他也是低利率啊低利率的期望值賣"},{"start":676.052,"end":705.524,"text":"那他憑什麼跑去國外說海外這些利率高我要去多賺一點賺他們賺賠我們所有保險人賠這是非常可惡的事情第二個他說市場不大所以我認為你們要跟台中部好好合作也就是說我們台灣公共建設需要錢我們不只社會住宅不只這些交通建設捷運這些台鐵機場的擴建這些等等"},{"start":706.158,"end":731.275,"text":"我們還有長照啊我們長照更是需要相當金額的投入所以應該就是輔導來交通單位、內政部的各單位還有衛福部關於長照的部分輔導他們來設立債券設立這樣子的債券基金然後讓我們回到臺灣"},{"start":733.676,"end":759.133,"text":"不然我們自己回來買就對了我們各項的公共結算都有很多自償性啊也有利息嘛要買就買臺灣這才有道理投資臺灣自己錢留在臺灣我們自己管理自己的錢這樣我們才能成為說亞太資產管理中心我們才有說服力說服國際上的錢說你的錢來讓我管"},{"start":760.287,"end":770.3,"text":"要不然70%給國外管的時候,我們只能說服誰?說服非洲的小國而已,不是嗎?好,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝委員提醒接著請楚英委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"156301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adef786b93e4d9f6e8567ff13663af3209e94934db31926c30057ff7adbaa11be625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:30:35 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要求這件事情"},{"start":100.558,"end":129.385,"text":"這會不會讓大家外界覺得有點放水的嫌疑啊所以這個就是昨天因為你們昨天出來之後媒體、網路上討論也覺得是說這是感覺好像要給大家更多的放寬期那你會不會2028年之後還有再往後再延後的一個部分那我們講說如果說現在都已經有在做了大家也認為是說防止漂綠嘛你自己這特別講到是說永續漂綠避免漂綠的事情那既然這樣的話"},{"start":131.536,"end":138.305,"text":"現在還有需要這樣的時間到底是效率不彰還是認為是說哪些大企業沒有辦法配合主委是不是再說明一下"},{"start":139.091,"end":165.598,"text":"我想剛才委員關鍵確實就是大家可能會希望說當然這是一件好事還是三年的空窗期也不是因為我們現在實務上已經如果有注意到我們各個金融機構對這個綠色投融資都已經非常非常的在意就是很在意甚至很多大家都會覺得是說它已經變成是一個熱門的議題了所以它甚至很多的投資者都會看到綠色的永續的它都會特別"},{"start":166.058,"end":186.403,"text":"好像變成是一個宣傳的一個大家都有這個心啦希望做這件事情我想因為我們站在一個監理立場比如說我們的很多的標準很多都很明確比如說我們現在對於碳排的計算這些東西呢我們有些地方還沒有很清楚比如說我們這個永續經濟活動指引我們也不是全面的推動所以有沒有一定"},{"start":187.591,"end":203.631,"text":"一定要2018年還是有沒有可能有加速的可能性當然說能夠盡早的這個鼓勵他們的話我們會盡快來做但是我們要有一個比較合理的這個明確的規定調適期這樣我們才能進行公權力的介入"},{"start":204.636,"end":204.836,"text":"主委 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是喜不喜歡看電影"},{"start":362.254,"end":382.111,"text":"家裡有沒有Netflix沒有沒有串流平台沒有時間看Netflix十月我推薦一部電影我覺得這一個也真的是我們監管會所有同仁都應該要去看不是要幫他打廣告但是他是Netflix十月台灣地區也是No.1排行第一的電影叫做《孤注一擲》"},{"start":383.092,"end":411.036,"text":"他是大陸騙2023年的他裡面演的就是詐騙的猖狂包括說人頭怎麼樣被騙到國外地區包括年輕人怎麼樣被囚禁包括說怎麼樣利用金融的漏洞來去詐騙甚至他裡面就提到800萬的現金匯到海外之後他們用車手每個人發金融卡馬上在短時間內把那800萬現金給領出來然後就變成詐騙集團就得手了"},{"start":411.696,"end":440.559,"text":"那這一個部分就是我們過去到現在其實有關注的就是說當有一個戶頭裡面突然間匯出或匯入大量的資金而大量的資金短時間內被不同人在不同的ATM領出去的時候其實我相信以現在的科技以現在的技術絕對可以做一個示警那能不能做這樣一個示警先把它做一個短時間的凍結確認說這個客戶他是確實是要做這樣的一個交易來防止可能的詐騙"},{"start":441.5,"end":470.82,"text":"其實我們金融業在做疑似這個賬戶其實已經做很多這個我應該提醒我也請他們開始去去查一下有沒有這個其實我講的其實也都是大家只是說這部電影只是他把它拍出來但我要的其實是我們金管會的同仁因為主委大家都對你有期待我希望的是我們的金管會真的能夠看到人家會拍出這部電影說實在這個詐騙手法說不定已經兩三年前了"},{"start":471.6,"end":471.96,"text":"王士堅委員"}]}},{"id":"156312","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156312","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade62a4d96c6b17eb3667ff13663af3209e94934db31926c30045705032a5a81be55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:52:02 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報告委員剛才其實委員講的我們心情也都非常沉重那件事情我心情知道以後立刻請保安局還有保發中心一定要投訴他們也迅速的做出回應當然"},{"start":209.733,"end":236.415,"text":"委員剛才講了這一條年輕的生命是沒辦法挽回我們是非常非常的遺憾我們也像剛剛委員講我們就立刻說亡羊補牢不可以再允許這種事情再發生一條人命就這樣消失那所以我們也請開始立刻請所有單位清查我們所有的周邊單位有沒有類似的這樣的一個辦法或是一個機制不要讓剛才講那個憾事再度發生對所以我們已經"},{"start":237.356,"end":265.896,"text":"在10月11號已經通令所有的單位已經開始就是我們也訂立一個參考範本請所有我們的周邊單位都要去按照這個方式來執行對好主委我們不是要口號我們也當然當然不是只要一個宣示我們要的是作為好不好好再跟主委請教十知十父新制在10月1號上路那未來民眾購買的這些醫療十知十父的保單"},{"start":267.057,"end":291.907,"text":"真正落實到一個正本理賠損害補償原則那每次的醫療行為所得到的理賠總額必須要在該次醫療的總費用為限就是最高不會超過這個總費用那如果買兩家保單那第二家第二家這個時資時付的保單就只能夠付那個差額不足的部分那這個"},{"start":295.171,"end":315.603,"text":"這立場是對的那我也表示支持那對於不孝人是說藉由生病來賺錢這個部分那如果新制實施之後有許多民眾還是會藉由第二張保單理賠他生病期間所產生的隱形損失我講的是真正的損失"},{"start":316.383,"end":331.54,"text":"然後他真正需要付出的部分比如說沒有去上班小孩子生病要照顧請假房貸要付這一些的部分生活費的花費甚至有些是比如說他身障"},{"start":333.321,"end":340.047,"text":"行動部方面沒有辦法坐公車必須要坐計程車這些產生的實際支出保險業者能不能將類似支出也納入保險的內容"},{"start":348.914,"end":375.976,"text":"那時間有限我先一次的所以在這個11日上路的這種時知時負的心智我認為說這是一個重大的改革但是實際需求與困境這一部分保險我們要保障患者基本權益的部分能不能在時知時負的範疇之內考量更多真正的實際支出這就是值得我們探討的問題所以"},{"start":378.078,"end":395.469,"text":"希望保險業者說主委你們要求說保險業者能夠根據民眾的實際狀況實際狀況靈活的調整保單內容而不是說一個制度的枷鎖就是把他綁得硬梆梆的什麼都不能變那這樣子的話就"},{"start":397.15,"end":397.951,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":418.345,"end":444.84,"text":"得到不應該得到的金額那我想這個政策就這樣推動對主委你說的是不應該得到的這個報酬對對對但是我們講的就是另外假設實質的費用不是醫療費用的部分隱形的這些隱形的成本這個的話就是我會請保局再思考那另外一個就是其實上我們的商品醫療型有很多種類型假設他是除了實質支付以外他有購買定額給付型的話他就可以用來支付這一塊假設現在他來不及的話他可以來做"},{"start":445.58,"end":460.171,"text":"做這件事情當然剛剛那委員提到那個部分有沒有可能擴及到醫療費用其他的費用叫做是一個明確而且是真的必須的這部分我會請保局再來演繹這個相關的方法"},{"start":462.018,"end":481.03,"text":"好好 處委這個要拜託您了那另外再一件事就是說我們再請教你我們上一次上個會期啊我有跟你討論過防止遊戲點數詐騙的議題是是是那你們提出當時你們提出一個3000塊以上24小時延遲入帳的方案那"},{"start":483.291,"end":508.657,"text":"我那時候說這個方案很老民希望你們回去好好檢討那前幾天你們將討論過後的這個方案就是改由發卡行強化遊戲點數交易即時封控這個部分那我的疑問就是說本來發卡行他就已經在有做這些即時封控啊還有做這些管制啊"},{"start":510.586,"end":530.201,"text":"是不是因為時間過了那麼久變成說我們金管會老實講讓我們很失望因為這麼長的時間沒有一個有效的作為它只是在這個沒有具體的作為然後只是在上面文字上面加個叫強化"},{"start":531.341,"end":552.702,"text":"當原本已經在做的單位,他們已經在執行這些封控,還交給他們做交給他們做,他們也是不出隊就在做啊,他們可以做什麼不公的出來嗎?那裡面有一些不一樣,就是說那個現在因為我們的遊戲業者跟銀行正在做一個計畫做一個聯防機制,因為畢竟剛剛講"},{"start":554.321,"end":569.495,"text":"三千塊全部都不同意都要延後二十四小時確實剛剛提出以後銀行公會提出這個建議以後引起很多人家不便那我們先回到一個我們的瘋狂錯誤但是剛剛提到我們還是希望銀行員跟遊戲業者有一個"},{"start":570.296,"end":598.556,"text":"做一個聯防機制讓他這個東西真的在詐騙的人能夠得到一些控制這部分我們正在處理因為這個詐騙無所不在是的每天我們現在在講話的時間這個時間當中或許也有為數不少的人被受到詐騙金額不一不要以為說OSA沒有人在用這種什麼很low的方法還是那種傳統的方式什麼都有是真的好不好 主委是 沒問題"},{"start":599.436,"end":603.499,"text":"這個部分一定要穩定要穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定"}]}},{"id":"156297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adea1f2d3e931e071fb67ff13663af3209e94934db31926c300e3ae72de851352f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:17:00 - 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man變成是尊重財政部的意見"},{"start":320.287,"end":340.315,"text":"主委你先不用急著否認我舉幾個例子你就知道我可能要舉什麼第一點就是在TESA的部分TESA的部分我們都知道它是一個個人長期的投資帳戶怎麼樣鼓勵國人願意把錢投資進去目前我看到的其實應該有更多的不同的財稅工具才對"},{"start":341.465,"end":363.174,"text":"你現在看到的是說還有減免手續費國人的一個長期投資帳戶他可能是一個長期放子他不會是進進出出像晚短期當沖降稅一樣進進出出所以這個個人的投資帳戶我不知道財政部給你一個是什麼樣的意見你剛剛我從媒體上看到說你是尊重財政部的意見但是我覺得如果是這樣的話這個TISA這個帳戶"},{"start":365.475,"end":389.437,"text":"因為很多人他不會是常常進進出出他會是一個長期性的投資我舉泰國來說泰國他是55歲以上才可以提或者是你投資滿5年以上才可以提出來就是說他有很多的政策工具他希望是一個長期穩定的投資所以如果是這樣只有一個減免手續費那到底他會不會成功我是有疑問的那第二點"},{"start":390.037,"end":417.931,"text":"主委就是說我舉另外一個例子包括我們當中降稅你本來希望是5年啊最後財政部才給你3年那另外一個你長期在強調說我們希望臺灣你上任收的證件希望亞洲可以變成亞洲資產管理中心可以放寬外匯的管制後來財政部也沒有支持你然後另外一個就是我上個星期問財政部的他說金融營業稅之前你說我們希望可以跨部會的協調爭取你本來希望說降為2%"},{"start":419.252,"end":435.467,"text":"後來他還是堅持5%我要請問主委這些是我覺得我覺得你該站在金融業該立即爭取的地方但最後你都用尊重你在很多外界的觀感當中你是一個好好先生你是一個可以溝通協調的人但是"},{"start":435.967,"end":456.213,"text":"碰到跨部會的時候有時候我覺得對你過去長期的政見想要落實你剛開始第一次來到我辦公室你說你希望做一個溫水跟冰塊理論你希望用你的溫水來去融化公部門的僵硬我不知道你還記不記得這件事情所以你的政見政策要落實的時候你就要學會做一個討厭"},{"start":457.873,"end":476.785,"text":"被討厭的人有一篇文章說被討厭的人我不知道報紙有寫你這一篇我不知道你有沒有看到就是說很多在專業性上我覺得該立即爭取的地方你不應該是用尊重去配合財政部的意見這是我的看法你等一下你可以說我想先請問部長主委你是不是知道金融營業稅去年是多少億去年因為我們是大概總共全年對"},{"start":487.6,"end":498.905,"text":"這個詳細數字我記不起來不好意思主委那我就要告訴你我覺得去年是800億就是說協調這些事情當中你有沒有導過政委或中泰院長來幫你跟部會協調這個我們當然有有跨部會有嗎你有找長官來協調嗎我們政委政委來幫你協調有嗎我們有院級的協調這個當然不會是院級的協調對那你被說服了"},{"start":517.796,"end":542.484,"text":"這個其實 縣委員我可以整體做個說明了嗎可以喔 那就是說剛剛提到委員就說其實我們政府是一體的我們的溝通折衝我們不會對 你不用跟我講溝通折衝你的想法專業過去如果是賴總統找你來他支持你的做法我覺得碰到對的事情你就應該是堅持到底"},{"start":543.064,"end":558.397,"text":"我剛剛講那三項算是你很大的政策你也在這邊你也是希望達到那個目標但最後只變成尊重財政部金融業的特性其實它就是沒有淨扣的稅額可以抵扣所以其實2001年的時候那時候金融營業稅是降為零現在財政部是打你臉財政部是說這個金融業它有兩個說法中稅有兩個說法"},{"start":568.806,"end":588.954,"text":"他說金融業我們臺灣在國際上我們金融整體的稅率並沒有比國際高但事實上我們都很清楚知道其實我們的金融業它因為它沒有那個扣除額在競相的扣除額所以事實上在國際上我們事實上比例是比較高的我們的整體的稅率是比較高的這一點我沒有講錯吧"},{"start":597.379,"end":617.504,"text":"這個就是說其實上剛剛跟委員報告我們金管會是站在金融這個管理的主管機關我們的態度一直沒有變我們是支持剛才那個金融業稅下降但是我們整個國家有他的政策那我還是有 我知道啊但是蕭克雲這個說法就是一個錯誤的說法嘛不是"},{"start":617.924,"end":644.702,"text":"就是他有不一樣的租稅的考量畢竟我剛才講為什麼要尊重財政部不同租稅的考量但是整體金融業的整體稅率事實上是比國際還要高的這句話你同意嗎我沒有講錯吧沒有應該講說他不是一個全面取樣不一樣比如說剛才稅率的部分有各種的稅法我們不是只看營業稅這一項各個國家也不是單一比較這個稅率我想各有各的這些的主張因為世界很多國家稅制是不同的"},{"start":645.262,"end":667.227,"text":"那我們當然會有看到比我們高也有比我們低的不可能是絕對高絕對低我只是說這是財政部他是主導我們的政策我們的態度還是很明確的你如果這樣回應我的話我覺得你長期在講說要爭取臺灣做亞太金融的這個整個市場也好你的努力我都覺得說要讓我們的金融業有更多的競爭力"},{"start":668.607,"end":694.298,"text":"其實我們爭取一些稅務的其實跟我們報告就是我們在爭取這個部分我們從來沒有停止過我們但是不會因為沒有爭取到我們現在目的我們就停下來不做你會持續的爭取因為莊瑞雲的第二個說法來主委你看我第二個說法莊瑞雲說我們現在金融業是飢餓的好學生所以沒有調整稅率的必要所以莊瑞雲的說法是你是教授出身所以好學生就應該被處罰嗎"},{"start":696.179,"end":707.613,"text":"這是財政部的立場那我剛才講過我跟委員報告我們在過去不管在財委會在什麼地方我們都是支持要調降的這個態度我們所以你會持續的爭取你會持續的溝通當然我們溝通會持續你對這個結果滿不滿意這個畢竟是一個財政部的執掌範圍"},{"start":716.559,"end":734.439,"text":"但是跟你有關耶你是金融業的大家長也不是大家長我是站在我們的專業立場你就應該反映金融業現在的挑戰跟困境還有你要把它轉型成我們要做亞洲杯的頭這都是你要努力的方向你現在的牙齒工具都被拿掉了"},{"start":735.341,"end":750.06,"text":"現在沒有並不代表以後不會有但是我們一定要持續的努力不會因為等待這個東西我們什麼都不做所以我們剛剛講的就是說我們還是會持續的努力站在我們的基礎會議上怎麼會努力你具體的作為什麼時候會出來讓我看到中村雲都已經都已經直接打你臉啦"},{"start":751.842,"end":767.623,"text":"這兩項說明就是莊主任直接打你臉啦也不是打臉啦報告委員這個就是說我們各自有各自的職長但是呢我們還是態度很堅定講說我們站在金融監督管理委員會立場我們是支持能夠調整這營業稅的但是你會持續的爭取你會有其他的工具出來嗎"},{"start":770.085,"end":783.233,"text":"包括像提撒的部分我上次委員報告過我們現階段是這樣但是未來我們沒有放棄爭取其他的租稅優惠鼓勵的可能性要達到你當時目標找長官來協調一下找院長來幫忙協調一下我現在在幫你落實你當時來我辦公室還有賴總統的政見不然的話你東西都會拔掉金融業怎麼會有彈性呢"},{"start":793.319,"end":794.24,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒"}]}},{"id":"16217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16217","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373db2ea4a3bfaaca62b4f0709a7fb2e74830202062f76816a179fb082a9095444775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n二、\t審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-30T08:31:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T12:05:00+08:00","duration":12821,"影片長度":"03:33:41","委員發言時間":"08:31:19 - 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謝謝主席還有在場所有委員大家好因為在我的版本裡面其實有特別強調人權遺址的部分因為其實不義遺址是基於國家威權統治時期非常重要的空間但是現在都沒有一部專法來處理不義遺址的審議跟保存文化的相關工作所以其實我也有提出相關的版本希望可以落實我們國家對於轉型正義的承諾"},{"start":2056.414,"end":2076.833,"text":"那在我的版本裡面有幾個重點第一個名稱的部分我的法案名稱其實跟目前的版本定的不一樣我是定為人權紀念長旨那主要是為了避免說私有的產權對於本法有一些抗拒的心理也希望也更多人加入來保存活化的行列"},{"start":2077.513,"end":2101.838,"text":"更重要的是希望可以擴大本法的使用範圍包括說不義遺址是另一種另外一種是這些在當中的行動者他們的相關的長職也應該要加入活化的行列包括政治受難者廣義抵抗國家暴力的場所我認為這些場所也有轉型正義價值的空間也應該被納入本法使用的範圍"},{"start":2103.058,"end":2131.408,"text":"第二個是加強行政機關的權責因為文化部除了要保存不義遺址之外也需要會同教育的主管機關來推動不義遺址相關轉型正義的工作來全面落實保存跟活化第三個是保障原住民族的權益因為在審議人權相關遺址的時候如果該事件的空間涉及原住民族的個案審議會的組成也應該要納入原住民族相關的代表"},{"start":2132.108,"end":2152.38,"text":"第四個加強私有產權者加入保存活化行列的動機因為這個也是這一次最難處理也應該要被處理的部分應該要要求主管機關參著現在的文資保存相關的辦法制定申請容積轉移或者是補助相關的條件來鼓勵大家多多的活化保存"},{"start":2153.58,"end":2180.736,"text":"最後轉型正義的工程其實是跟時間賽跑不義遺址的消失就是再次重演國家的不義所以希望我們可以一起努力趕快來完成審議讓不會在這個法治化的工作完成之後馬上可以執行相關的審定以及保存的作業把這些空間一個一個都找出來讓過去威權統治的歷史可以被記得以上我的提案說明謝謝主席謝謝大家"},{"start":2183.46,"end":2204.578,"text":"謝謝黃婕委員的提案說明另外我也簡單說明一下其實我的部分就是三個部分跟行政院的不一樣第一個是加強教育應該要會同教育主管機關推廣轉型正義的教育第二個是涉及到審議涉及原住民個案的時候應該額外聆聘個案所設的原住民族的代表"},{"start":2205.238,"end":2228.766,"text":"第三、「必要時採用現代科技及工法,加強其防震、防災、防潮、防築等機能及存序連線,但應維持其歷史價值與轉型爭議的意義。」其他比較小的部分我就不在這邊說明了。謝謝。在場並沒有其他提案委員在。我們接著就請文化部李部長進行報告。報告時間5分鐘。"},{"start":2240.709,"end":2268.582,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家好今天因大院教育及文化委員會來邀請就行政院函請審議的不義遺址保存條例草案以及各位委員提出的草案進行報告及詢答我感到很榮幸不義遺址指的就是威權統治時期國家為了達成鞏固威權統治的目的侵害人權事件的發生地點"},{"start":2269.682,"end":2290.343,"text":"包括包括激壓、審判、刑囚、監禁、處決等場所。包括激壓、審判、刑囚、監禁、處決等場所。文化部訂定獨立專法,嚴尼不義遺址保存條例草案,期待藉由保存發生歷史事件的空間,把台灣的人權故事傳承給下一代。"},{"start":2291.479,"end":2316.559,"text":"不義遺址保存條例草案在今年的7月18日行政院決議通過並函請立法院審議草案重點主要包括第一不義遺址是從中華民國34年8月15到81年11月16威權統治期間國家不法侵害人權事件的發生地點"},{"start":2317.259,"end":2344.044,"text":"第2定名此條例的主管機關是文化部。第3根據不義遺址的空間現況嚴理制定、修復、保存、研究、活化跟展示以及辦理活動等等。針對不義遺址屬於私人財產的部分我們應尊重所有全人的意願以獎勵補助的方式"},{"start":2345.422,"end":2363.709,"text":"徒導私人保存活化。第四、訂明公有之不義遺址管理維護責任及損毀的罰則。以下,我們就各位委員所提的修正版本進行回應跟說明。敬請各位委員指正。"},{"start":2365.236,"end":2380.775,"text":"范雲委員張雅琳委員所提的草案內容針對不義遺址保存作為定名於必要時的現代科技與工法,增加不義遺址防災能力,林宜瑾委員提案,"},{"start":2381.67,"end":2403.144,"text":"定名中央主管機關代行處理機制環節委員提案定名私有的不義遺址的申請容積轉移以及張雅玲委員提案主管機關優先購買權等規定我們敬表尊重建議未來審查時與行政院版本並同討論"},{"start":2404.998,"end":2424.301,"text":"鄭天財委員提案草案第三條擴大依促進轉型正義條例所定義的威權統治時期及不義遺址的時期跟範圍包括清代與日本政府以武力征伐原住民的青亥發生地"},{"start":2425.302,"end":2450.541,"text":"由於促進轉型正義條例是針對威權統治已有明確的定義與範圍建議以行政院版本草案審查。蔡易宇委員吳佩儀委員提案的草案內容與行政院版本一致建議並同審查。黃潔委員提案草案第三條第二款新增"},{"start":2451.301,"end":2462.474,"text":"人權紀念空間的類別擴大不義遺址的涵蓋範圍由於條件認定標準善待討論建議依行政院版本審查。"},{"start":2463.84,"end":2482.173,"text":"最後我們要向大院報告雖然不義遺址保存的專法尚未通過但是我們已經啟動潛在不義遺址的調查跟研究輔導及補助公有不義遺址的設置不義遺址的標示牌"},{"start":2482.893,"end":2497.499,"text":"另外也持續補助各縣市政府辦理不義遺址調查研究並且推動人權展覽、教育推廣、國際合作交流與人權事務發展提升民眾對於不義遺址的認識"},{"start":2498.78,"end":2518.904,"text":"感謝各位委員關注保存不義遺址並不吝提出相關草案版本期望本次立法得以順利完成使我國轉型正義及不義遺址的保存工作得以更加落實以上說明敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位"},{"start":2528.424,"end":2540.41,"text":"好,謝謝李部長的口頭報告。現在我們進行詢答。每位出席委員質詢6分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘。列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘,發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分。委員如有臨時提案,"},{"start":2547.974,"end":2565.52,"text":"請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員吳春成質詢結束後即進行處理。處理提案時若提案委員聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理。首先我們請發言登記第一位的洪孟楷委員質詢。好主席謝謝麻煩請李部長。"},{"start":2577.523,"end":2604.654,"text":"請禮部長。部長好。候委員你好。本席剛特別聆聽你的這個草案內容跟立法目的。其中講到說空間文活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述有助於促進社會溝通反省建立保障人權守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍的社會。那我想請教促轉條例"},{"start":2606.175,"end":2628.317,"text":"之前在2022年的5月也正式解編了因為他任務行嘛兩年那後來延長了各延長一次再兩年也在2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編我們現在所要推動的這個不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係還是他是促轉條例的延伸嗎?"},{"start":2629.138,"end":2631.279,"text":"所以他是促進轉型正義條例的延伸?"},{"start":2650.81,"end":2665.467,"text":"我們有看到說不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項要成立審議會明定成員資格組成資格那我想請教一下現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了"},{"start":2666.608,"end":2684.026,"text":"會不會讓大家外界質疑就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日結果兩年之後又再一年又再一年又多延長了兩年那現在解散了結果我們又再推一個不義遺址委員會那結果到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又又都是之前促轉會的委員"},{"start":2684.767,"end":2709.699,"text":"那這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎?那這樣子還有我們過去的這個法條的一個意義嗎?來部長說明一下我們這次在重新在審議的時候我想是跟前面的另外那個促轉會毫無關係你剛剛又講說是延伸現在又講毫無關係我沒有說延伸我是說他你要不要回來來來主席時間暫停一下要不要回到一下什麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾啊是"},{"start":2711.57,"end":2728.948,"text":"主席可不可以時間暫停一下因為剛部長我在兩分鐘前問說是不是延伸他講說是是促轉會之後下來然後交給文化部的工作那現在又講說完全毫無關係這樣子好不好這前言後語對不著欸我們在精神上是延伸可是在法律上我們從新開始"},{"start":2729.989,"end":2742.203,"text":"精神上延伸,法律重新開始。精神上延伸,法律重新開始,代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立,對不對?"},{"start":2744.064,"end":2760.232,"text":"他這個結束以後交給每一個部門有新的東西那精神上是延伸的精神上延伸但法律重新調整因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛對沒錯謝謝部長部長非常好開宗明義很開放的態度那我們就想請教"},{"start":2761.294,"end":2773.883,"text":"保障人權守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍觀今一見古無古不曾經過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘可以原諒但絕對不能遺忘對吧當然就是我們的目的不要遺忘我們要面對真相那請教一下民國38年以前在台灣這塊土地上面在民國38年也是中華民國的一個"},{"start":2791.24,"end":2808.449,"text":"議員,那我們有沒有一些不義的事情發生?民國34年到38年是發生二二八事變的時間,所以民國38年以後有白色恐怖。那34年以前日本統治台灣的時候,發生過很多不義的事,但是它不在我們這個條例之內。"},{"start":2813.817,"end":2841.786,"text":"台灣首座慰安婦博物館阿嬤家2016年成立當時這三位阿嬤已經是都已經在天堂了那那個時候講是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式的向南韓道歉同意賠償但對於台灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意到現在八年又過去了再來"},{"start":2843.117,"end":2846.021,"text":"一輩子等不到道歉最後一位未安撫2023年92歲離開了。"},{"start":2850.407,"end":2876.819,"text":"二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉賠償其實只是其次我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生二次世界大戰也好日據時代也好這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤"},{"start":2878.24,"end":2896.412,"text":"而未安婦真的是整個大事件底下最難過而且令人無法忍受的事情所以阿嬤家和平女性人權管2016年成立到現在8年的時間也都有相關的教育如果以部長這邊來看"},{"start":2898.257,"end":2910.085,"text":"以保障人權、守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍,認不認為應該也要珍視這時候的歷史?是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論?"},{"start":2911.462,"end":2936.11,"text":"我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的這個是指的是威權時代統治的一個一定的範圍。您剛提到了嘛。精神延續嘛。所以我沒有否決精神啊。轉型正義大家都知道啊。但是法定重來啊。所以我們現在是討論個別條文啊。那我現在要請教的是在民國38年以前你剛也說了34年到38年有228事件。34年以前還有很多的"},{"start":2936.61,"end":2964.591,"text":"產無人道不遵守人權的事件那為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限民國38年以後呢?民國38年以前不算嗎?這個歷史就沒了嗎?沒有人權被破壞嗎?那既然這樣的話我們是不是應該更開闊的心胸民國開始到現在113年我國只要有任何不義的地方任何威權的地方任何被人權破壞的地方我們是不是都應該要保存?"},{"start":2966.49,"end":2974.434,"text":"非常好,謝謝部長。所以部長,我們是不是在討論的時候在民國38,就不要設限,就是從中華民國紀委來113年,我們共同推動,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":2977.762,"end":2986.287,"text":"我剛剛特別強調我們今天審查的條例是有一個時間的範圍跟事件但是您剛剛講的未安婦也好時間的條件是可以修改嘛這是我們在逐條逐條審查嘛那你剛剛也提到啦38年以前也有很多人權也有很多不義啊我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分喔我現在講到38年以前的這些不義包括未安婦"},{"start":3003.479,"end":3028.482,"text":"未安婦事件難道不用關心嗎?當時聽說據聞台灣可能有超過據統計有8萬人有10萬人甚至有20萬人的未安婦到現在0未安婦已經都0了但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎?這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有事情發生嗎?如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍?"},{"start":3029.625,"end":3050.416,"text":"人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情,慰安婦就其中之一。那既然如此的話,我們不是應該要正視這段歷史,來去告訴後代子孫不要輕易發起戰爭,戰爭很殘忍。如果說真的有戰爭發生的話,可能全部的人都有可能牽連進去,那其中慰安婦也會發生。"},{"start":3052.079,"end":3076.782,"text":"部長,您是文化人,您怎麼看衛安夫的事情,包括當年日本人統治台灣的南洋軍夫的事情永遠不會被遺忘,而且不知道你有沒有注意到,你是不是更應該要去保存讓台灣這塊土地上2300萬人也都記得這段歷史最近的公共電視所播的那個聽凱勇就是又回到"},{"start":3077.483,"end":3099.995,"text":"日本人統治台灣日本人如何屠殺那個戰俘的故事這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情很好這永遠不會忘記而且就像納稅統治的時期大家重複地用電影文學一再地演出這些東西就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情加害者跟被害者"},{"start":3101.254,"end":3103.756,"text":" «不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3126.975,"end":3141.405,"text":"我相信你也認同。我們現在有富裕的台灣社會,我們有中華民國113年,都是過去所有人累積下來。所以過去的每一段歷史我們都要記得。我們不能"},{"start":3142.205,"end":3160.563,"text":"我們可以原諒但不能遺忘而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的所以本席在這一個條例裡面也會推動相關的如同剛剛跟部長講的我們也會推動相關的一個修正動議希望部長能夠大力的支持在逐條審查的時候我相信稍微"},{"start":3161.364,"end":3178.311,"text":"以女性運動那麼的權威的一個召委應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對我們共同為慰安婦阿嬤們來以慰他們在天之靈所做推動。謝謝林,謝謝。部長請回,謝謝洪孟楷委員提醒一下婦女團體希望正名為軍事性奴隸,謝謝。再來我們請林倩琦委員發言。"},{"start":3197.883,"end":3198.504,"text":"今天本席的質詢主題是誰的不義?"},{"start":3218.602,"end":3236.681,"text":"過去幾週本席一直有跟您這邊提到文化政策應該要包容才不會落入另外一種威權所以本席一直希望能夠用多元的方式來擴大歷史範疇的方式來處理我國的人權問題在面對處理過去歷史上的人權是需要謹慎的"},{"start":3238.547,"end":3263.83,"text":"因為這涉及我們未來的文化發展跟現在的族群和解甚至是政策的公平性和政府的責任所以剛才孟凱委員這邊有提到那我這邊也有資料監察院的調查報告告訴我們轉型正義工作的重點我再重提一次瞭解與揭露真相避免重蹈覆轍和以理解來開啟和解的可能性"},{"start":3264.691,"end":3287.731,"text":"所以我們如果在正義這一方的這個論戰我真的要問的是誰的正義好請您記得我今天的主題所以剛才我們一直討論您今天法規上所定義的威權時期請你們好好審慎的去處理這個問題好首先我要問到一個問題就是如果從原住民的視角那不義是什麼"},{"start":3288.737,"end":3316.946,"text":"我們看到的是早來這個土地的在排擠晚來的。晚來的甚至現在壓迫原本在這個島上的。這樣的壓迫不平是不是要納入不義的定義?好那今天你們給本席的這個相關的回應那也就針對某一個時期我想剛才孟凱委員也提到我想接下來很多委員都會提到所以要問的是這個轉型正義是針對某些人或某些時期的選擇性記憶嗎?"},{"start":3319.397,"end":3341.083,"text":"那如果要這樣講以政權來講熱蘭征程1624年荷蘭人也就是現在的尼德蘭人建立的時候那我們就已經在外來的勢力下經歷過剝削與壓迫在這塊土地上的人好那難道沒有人經歷這個課徵重稅強迫勞役而且還被軍事鎮壓的階段嗎"},{"start":3346.843,"end":3361.85,"text":"如果不義遺址只能如你們所講的終戰以後才開始的話那請問歷史上的不義你們又怎麼去詮釋呢?難道現在全世界的有關於猶太人被屠殺的博物館是在終戰之後嗎?"},{"start":3366.442,"end":3374.327,"text":" 1867年的羅發號事件導致了美方跟狼牙18社的南甲之盟這個範疇你們怎麼去詮釋?不義嗎?牡丹社事件之後"},{"start":3381.746,"end":3402.117,"text":"在1874年,清朝就為了這個事件以後開始開山撫帆。進入了原住民的區域之後,建立了防疫、土牛溝等隔離的設施。這些保護的設施也是隔離跟壓迫。你要怎麼去詮釋它呢?不義嘛!誰的不義?"},{"start":3403.939,"end":3415.762,"text":"日治實體的壓迫更是有系統性的。我們都知道的1914年的泰魯閣事件、30年的霧社事件,那這不是日本政府對我們的壓迫嗎?那莫那魯道集體帶族人自殺的地方,你們要怎麼去詮釋?不義嗎?總統府的前身,台灣總督府,"},{"start":3431.093,"end":3445.598,"text":"這是日治時期最高的權力他有沒有壓迫我們那你要不要叫總統府不義遺址還是你要學韓國把全台灣的不義遺址都除掉你們想一想"},{"start":3448.246,"end":3474.103,"text":"所以史官應該是家法本席已經提到了很多次在跟您質詢的時候不義遺址這件事還是請你記得你的承諾所以這個不義遺址的名稱適合嗎目前我們適合怎麼討論這個問題我們是不是在人權場域中學習這整個事件是不是一個人權的概念那人權應該怎麼被討論怎麼被詮釋我還是那句話誰的不義"},{"start":3478.826,"end":3501.46,"text":"好,所以我們是不是可以涵蓋更多一點還有一個很實際的問題現在你們目前所謂的不義遺址有一些見物不見了有一些是私人財產這個產權被關以不義如果今天是你家那我不知道部長你怎麼回應我你覺得如果你家被關為不義你怎麼看待"},{"start":3503.471,"end":3504.532,"text":"這個部分可不可以請您先回應?"},{"start":3533.251,"end":3533.319,"text":"擬具鄭天財Sra"},{"start":3535.435,"end":3563.051,"text":"謝謝部長所以也請記得還是要記得您剛才給紅委員的承諾法定重來這件事是給文化部一個展現你專業的機會所以我這邊呼籲我希望能夠全面正義而不是選擇性的正義重新定義這個名詞面對歷史部長我們不能片面化也不能選擇性的只記住某些時期忽略其他時期的痛苦"},{"start":3563.971,"end":3578.247,"text":"今天這個條例我希望它不會讓未來更分裂不要讓各個族群會感到不同形式的壓迫史觀應該是家法發生過的我們就記住它"},{"start":3580.031,"end":3605.292,"text":"從這裡面去學習。這個不義遺址我希望不要太不容易被紀念因為紀念這些歷史創傷然後有的時候你會讓我們覺得我已經被加害的人還要接受加害者的視角究竟這是在還原歷史掩蓋歷史還是選擇性操作還是本席之前講的另一種威權"},{"start":3606.937,"end":3610.339,"text":"最後還是回到正題,誰是不正義的一方?部長,您要針對我剛才的部分做回應嗎?"},{"start":3621.69,"end":3640.405,"text":"我覺得在歷史上我剛才有強調加害者跟被害者然後您剛才提到那個原住民的事情每一件事情都被拍成電影過比如說斯卡羅還有就是斯卡羅這個已經拍過的我想大家都有很多討論跟詮釋那如同剛才"},{"start":3644.088,"end":3654.935,"text":"本委員所講的。那我們希望記住您的未來的推動能夠在全世上考慮到所有的視角。最後、今、吾、吾、吾、吾、吾、吾、吾、吾、"},{"start":3668.803,"end":3695.459,"text":"改提拉安等19人保存條例草案 案 案。請記住他們是誰呀?誰是不義的一方?任何對原住民的剝奪,不公不義,不分時期,都是不義。請我們從人權的概念中學習吧!"},{"start":3701.513,"end":3717.378,"text":"謝謝。謝謝委員的指教。希望我們未來也可以用這些題材拍電影,永遠記得這些不義的事情。謝謝。好,那個部長請回喔。好,那,欸等一下。好,那再來我們請柯智恩委員質詢。好,OK。謝謝主席,我們是不是請部長?好,有請部長。"},{"start":3731.6,"end":3742.085,"text":"部長好,我們今天審不義遺址的保存條例我想我們先來證明一下因為目前不管是立法院的法治局還有很多監委還有很多專家的看法他認為不義這個名詞聽起來是非常的負面而且很容易造成反彈那我們在講說遺址呢我們根據國語詞典的這個定義來說"},{"start":3752.87,"end":3764.113,"text":"他們通常是認為是一個考古學家研究之地,所以很多人建議要把它改成人權事件紀念場域的保存條例。部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":3764.892,"end":3769.457,"text":"我希望討論這樣的一個狀況當中我們要來面對歷史的一個真相但是不用在名稱上面一開始就引起一些的一些的反彈而且呢"},{"start":3787.856,"end":3791.06,"text":"一般來說像監察院它曾經的報告是寫就是就人權侵害事件發生地進行始積點的調查與清查這是監察院但是到了文化部之後部長雖然不是你的任內但是是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址是你們發明的所以說呢雖然不是你"},{"start":3807.739,"end":3836.92,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":3837.02,"end":3844.706,"text":"不一定有不正義的另外一方所以用這個正義這個名詞不義這個名詞還是用人權歷史場域更為妥善這是我們未來在逐條審查的時候會來做一個討論然後呢文化部開始什麼時候來做一個文化遺址的調查了做了多久花費多少部長我還是要幫你稍微review一下因為促轉會也做了很多不義遺址的踏查請問你們的調查跟他們的踏查差別在哪裡"},{"start":3863.729,"end":3865.069,"text":"我先全部問完之後他再給統一的回答因為你在解散之前你看條列出來他已經花到406.5我這個人非常的務實除了剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外還有你文化部接手之後呢對於這部分你也花了50萬而且呢你在這個"},{"start":3883.695,"end":3890.619,"text":"一月十四號的時候國家人權博物館的這個內容更新也花了一百九十四萬最重要的是什麼呢部長你看一下為什麼這麼多的調查我們只讀後一家而且是限制性招標這家公司從2014年成立之後的資產額只有100萬"},{"start":3901.644,"end":3911.287,"text":"到目前為止我們看下一張他所承接的這些所謂只要跟不義遺址有關的都是由這家公司來承接目前承接的費用是多少2365萬部長請問我們台灣這麼多家專家學者而且這家公司在成立之前我從來沒有看出他是什麼不義的專家為什麼一定要限制性專標非這家不可從以前到現在為什麼只是同一家部長理由是什麼"},{"start":3929.824,"end":3938.879,"text":"這一點我必須很誠實地講,我不清楚。你要不要學清楚的?為什麼我們全台灣的專家就只有一家嗎?就只有一家嗎?而且是限制性招標2300多萬,給我一個解釋。"},{"start":3943.22,"end":3963.586,"text":"關於這一家,其實我們委託有關的相關案件事實上都是涉及白孔跟不義遺址。所以只有限制性招標是這個理由嗎?我們很多專家欸。我們都是用那個採購。不會啊,我們看是公開招、公開評選的方式。而且是用公開評選的方式。然後抽到的就是同一家?"},{"start":3964.766,"end":3979.16,"text":"你從以前到現在就只有這麼一家而已啊。你要不要看一下後面所有的資料挑出來。我們都有外聘評審委員。你給我完全更清楚的資料。我就不相信全台灣就只有這麼一家的公司從頭2014到現在就只有一家公司來做你們的工作。"},{"start":3979.801,"end":3985.162,"text":"請給我全部一個素面檢查這是非常重要的還有部長對不起來我們再來看你第四條裡面特別寫到的不義遺址都要活化保存嘛那我們現在目前為止當然你現在說有很多的地方原件物已經拆除了然後你還要再活化跟教育推廣所以說呢你像已經定義為不義遺址像我們基隆港我們的野柳我們的台北橋還有包括我們家附近的青島東路三段青島東路三號還有包括我們喜達登飯店"},{"start":4010.027,"end":4021.56,"text":"這些都是過去屬於不義遺址。然後呢,有些是公有的,有些是私有的。那私有的話,是不是,我剛剛有聽到,你說你可以是用,他可以不用被貼上這樣的標籤,對不對?"},{"start":4024.298,"end":4042.243,"text":"對不起,我跟委員說明,我們現在的保存或化都是針對公有的部分,私有的部分,但是私有被你們公告之後會不會受到一些的干擾?他不願意,但是被你公告之後他會不會受到一些的干擾?"},{"start":4043.163,"end":4057.728,"text":"跟委員說明在現在的處理方式上是以對財產侵害權最小並且尊重當事人的意願的情況下來進行我懂啊可是你公告之後有些地方他或許會受到一些干擾更何況謝謝我等一下還會針對這個問題請次長再上來過那我想還有一個非常重要因為你們有個條文說主管機關可以委任民間團體或是個人來做一個辦理"},{"start":4067.992,"end":4076.934,"text":"：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第3會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第4會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第5會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第6會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第7會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第8會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第9會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第10會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第11會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第12會期"},{"start":4094.66,"end":4110.214,"text":"剛才的信誓照表可能一併都要告訴我你們預算未來該這個條例通過之後可能會是如何還有很重要就是很多前面兩個委員都非常關切的為什麼你花了這麼多錢你的所重視的轉型正義為什麼只限定在34年8月15號到81年11月6號"},{"start":4113.277,"end":4116.72,"text":"然後呢8月34民國34年8月10號那天公告之後的正義才是正義嗎之前都不算正義嗎這個時間軸部長大家是非常有想法有意見的就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的我們如果要往前來算的話你看1895年的以為戰爭"},{"start":4131.972,"end":4152.548,"text":"我們的桃竹苗的我們的客家人到底被慘烈鎮殭這算不算不義?日本同盟時期的時候日軍殺了多少的台灣人?這樣子說起來的話身為最高的指揮中心的我們的總統府算不算是不義遺址?當初我們的行政院的陳建仁這個院長把行政院當作是228的不義遺址貼上一個標誌請問總統府是不是要貼一塊?部長需不需要?"},{"start":4158.564,"end":4165.83,"text":"以我們的歷史軸來去看的話總統府是日本的總督府算不算是不義遺址你需要貼上跟行政院要不要貼上一塊我先回答這個總統府需不需要因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個"},{"start":4177.847,"end":4195.322,"text":"就是您剛才講的那個我們的法案有個堅決條件對就告訴你嘛你這個時間軸如果是你關上不義兩個字大家就有意見嘛你所謂的轉型正義你所謂的這個所謂的不公不義難道只有38年前的這個段時間才叫不公不義嗎其他的部分你怎麼來解釋他不是應該放出四海的普世價值嗎部長"},{"start":4197.443,"end":4204.829,"text":"這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有地址那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算這麼久了一起把它一次要算總帳也可以啊因為這都是來就像我誠如我說的人家監察院只是告訴你是一個人權運動的方式是文化部你把它改成個不義遺址那用這樣的原理來說的話說實在的"},{"start":4221.141,"end":4239.618,"text":"市民得最有機會講這個所謂的轉型正義的他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團我們再往下看所以說呢你現在已經標示了這麼多還有最後的部分裡面是不是有多少的部分你是要來標示徐聰如果他不要的話他可以拒絕但是會不會對他造成困擾"},{"start":4240.299,"end":4243.361,"text":"這都是我所調的問題因為時間的關係我只告訴部長這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視最重要的是不要告訴我你只限定這段時間這個時間包括你的定義都可以改更何況這個時間這是普遍的價值你不應該限定這段時間然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址對我們來說那是完全說不通的只能告訴我們"},{"start":4264.392,"end":4278.026,"text":"所謂的不公不義,他是放逐事態,只要是這樣子,不管他是誰,我們都應該拿出來,這才是真正的面對歷史的真相,好不好?部長,最重要是招標的部分,請給我一個詳細的說明報告,這很重要,好不好?好,沒問題,沒問題,謝謝你,謝謝你指教。好,謝謝。好,部長請回,謝謝柯智恩委員,再來我們請陳培宇委員質詢。"},{"start":4294.655,"end":4294.796,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":4303.657,"end":4326.732,"text":"陳委員你好部長早安我們來快速切入我想要談轉型正義的部分第一個我想從語言的部分切入我之前其實也質詢過相關的議題我相信部長也很熟悉可是我想要再把時間往前拉一點為什麼當年這個錯誤的語言政策其實造成了不管是台語、客語、原住民語所有的在地的母語其實都受到壓抑"},{"start":4328.693,"end":4331.095,"text":"一般的政策輪替之下我們確實看起來有多一些的可能性可是我還是要說就算到了2024年其實還是有相關學者"},{"start":4344.025,"end":4359.611,"text":"在報紙上投書說其實台語或者是很多的在地的母語會因為過去的這個不管是電視、電影或者是文化出版導致於大家都把這些母語視為是一個比較低俗的語言例如說這個作家就說這個投書的人就說說台語的角色經常說幾句"},{"start":4362.432,"end":4376.53,"text":"之類的三字經就會迅速消失或者是說這樣的話的人就會被貼標籤為壞人或是社會上沒受過多少教育的人物也就是說相關的台灣所有母語都在面臨這個困境再來我們往下看喔"},{"start":4377.782,"end":4395.122,"text":"其實台灣曾經是電影的大國那部長您都一直說你對電影非常熟悉我想你當年一定有印象就是因為當時鼓勵拍國語的所謂華語的電影所以當時他們可以用彩色底片可是台語片就不行了所以只能拿到黑白的底片膠捲部長有這麼一段歷史你記得嗎?"},{"start":4398.846,"end":4399.786,"text":"對,謝謝部長。也就是為什麼要拿電影這一塊來講。我是在"},{"start":4415.742,"end":4436.63,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4437.611,"end":4458.873,"text":"當時因為以推行國語的名義開始要求布袋戲改為國語配音我們可以想像一下本來很好聽的台語發聲的還有那個音調的押韻因為變成華語的演出之後其實整個味道都不見了於是開始布袋戲就慢慢慢慢消失在螢光幕之前只能走入所謂VHS錄影代那個年代我講了這麼多"},{"start":4460.114,"end":4487.206,"text":"我們最近還看到一個非常荒謬的例子台灣Plus這個是很重要的我們對於全世界的想要關注台灣文化的人我們來宣傳台灣非常多精彩的地方可是我們最近看到有兩個爭議的點其中他用閩南來代替Taiwanese然後甚至我們在看到這一段他要介紹吸、喝這一段他讓一群原住民小孩穿著原住民的衣服然後"},{"start":4488.533,"end":4489.013,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具"},{"start":4509.858,"end":4516.444,"text":"所以我是不是可以快速跟部長討論一下文化部是不是應該針對相關文化產業我剛舉的都是文化產業甚至我們台灣plus的影音的製作可不可以針對這個文化產業創作台語作品的相關輔助政策更加的積極還有國家語言發展法跟促轉條例的立法精神針對台灣plus類似的事件提出改善報告"},{"start":4532.935,"end":4548.421,"text":"沒有問題啊,這個你的理念跟我完全一樣。好,謝謝部長。那相關的輔助政策或是更積極的促使促進各式各樣的臺灣臺語臺灣原住民客家語這個部分積極的給予協助好不好,部長。"},{"start":4549.201,"end":4574.068,"text":"一個月內。好,謝謝部長。謝謝部長這麼迅速的回應。那我們來看一下關於不義遺址的部分喔。我不知道,我不知道你知不知道這個故事。2023年呢,有一個報導者的報導提到,原來是台北刑務所的官社跟台北刑務所的圍牆,不只是審定的不義遺址,也是台北市政府的法定文資。那,可是呢,當時的柯文哲市長,他在任內把這兩個地方OT發包,發包後他竟然標榜"},{"start":4578.93,"end":4601.289,"text":"華麗變身大賣然後讓所有去參觀的人秒到京都穿和服拍網美照篡改歷史再把這個地方名字改為榮景園區部長這些地方的文資確實他必須有權利在地方政府做這些處理但是你覺得這樣的處理是對的嗎以我在報導者看到這個最新的例子來說部長你怎麼看部長"},{"start":4608.858,"end":4626.156,"text":"這個臺北刑務所目前真正的那個監獄是已經整個拆掉只剩下兩道牆他目前你講的這個地方是當時刑務所那個那些人住的那些官員住的地方然後最後發報出去變成這樣的過程我說實話我不太知道捏"},{"start":4627.237,"end":4643.374,"text":"你自己這樣看起來有沒有覺得很荒謬一秒到京都穿和服拍網美照變成一個重要的賣點但是他原本的角色是原台北刑務所官社跟台北刑務所圍牆他是已經被審定過的不義遺址喔也是法定文資你覺得這樣的處理好嗎?"},{"start":4644.576,"end":4658.336,"text":"這個就有點像您剛才看到那個原住民的小孩在喝那個飲料一樣。我覺得我們台灣的歷史本身就是因為沒有講太清楚之後,使得大家都會有某種錯亂。"},{"start":4659.818,"end":4672.687,"text":"擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具委員鄭天"},{"start":4689.338,"end":4689.898,"text":" «不義遺址保存條例草案》案。"},{"start":4708.626,"end":4709.807,"text":"當年一樣是報導者的報導保存不義遺址的困境是相關的政府對不義遺址的保存根本不友善"},{"start":4726.195,"end":4740.022,"text":"南投縣政府在2018年他們為了設置普里鎮長周義雄歡迎您的電子看板直接把鋼樑打進二二八事件的烏牛藍橋石碑當時呢南投文化局僅宣稱遺跡破壞不可逆"},{"start":4742.423,"end":4766.702,"text":"可是呢他們明明該有的動作例如說提報文資或者是相關當地的公民團體要提報文資他們也以行政的方法刁難所以烏牛藍橋石碑就沒有辦法成為被保護的文資從轉型正義我要回來看這件事情非常多地方的文資其實都在面臨這個困境而且我相信會越來越多只要主政的人他對於相關的事情沒有概念"},{"start":4767.082,"end":4773.631,"text":"沒有熱情甚至對於議題沒有敏感度他們就會做出這麼野蠻不文明的事情所以這邊我想要再次強調文化部應該要積極有角色部長你怎麼看?"},{"start":4779.113,"end":4800.409,"text":"我剛才講這些問題就是還是回到原來大家不覺得那個是應該要對他尊重或者不知道他的來龍去脈文化部扮演的角色在這個時機點是非常重要的那如果好部長謝謝你的回應如果我們不要等到出事了然後文化部再去函糾正我在想有沒有一個可能性文化部有沒有機會成立一個所謂中央輔導團的概念一旦"},{"start":4802.611,"end":4825.31,"text":"你們不管是主動地盤查、主動地去了解地方政府的需求或是當地方政府提報上來的時候你們給予協助讓相關的文化資產以及保存可以進入一個專業的討論程序而不要讓地方政府亂搞一通之後你們再去函糾正,你覺得呢?目前我們就算不義遺址這個條例裡面就有包括這一點我們跟地方的輔導"},{"start":4826.499,"end":4835.994,"text":"那他跟我們同樣的那些歷史建物的那個定義是一樣的。那可是他們的做法除了我剛剛說這個荒謬的不文明的粗暴的錯誤怎麼辦?我們輔導團還可以更積極做哪些事情?"},{"start":4841.05,"end":4867.162,"text":"我們會要這個地方政府提出一個如何保存的一個計畫提到我們這邊來可是他們如果沒有做盤查也就是說其實相關很多的配套我們需要文化部跟中央政府跟地方政府必須更積極的溝通讓這些事情可以一再一再的被討論然後被盤點然後被好好的保存跟對待我想部長這件事情非常非常重要雖然已經有相關機制但是看起來悲劇還是不斷的發生所以要拜託文化部不管透過什麼方法"},{"start":4870.484,"end":4881.55,"text":"指導團也好,平台討論機制也好,要跟地方政府有更多的溝通。我們也希望一個月內有相關的報告,可以嗎?可以,謝謝。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席,謝謝。好,部長請回,謝謝陳培宇委員的質詢。再來我們請葛如君委員。謝謝主席,有請文化部李遠部長。好,有請部長。"},{"start":4901.924,"end":4922.423,"text":"各位委員你好部長好我想剛剛陳培宇委員的質詢其實就是在講文化部要有一個帶頭的作用這件事情非常重要今天想要跟您先探討電子書的議題這兩天有很多媒體在報導我們的閱讀型態是往數位化發展電子書的占比真的是飛速成長從2019年的4.3%"},{"start":4925.245,"end":4947.719,"text":"短短四年之間成長10倍,到40%圖書的部分呢,現在基本上實體跟電子同步出版的大概有六成。那我們阿宅喜歡看的漫畫甚至高達將近八成。那電子書雖然看起來出版社很積極的在推動,民間的接受度也很高,但是有一個很不好、不妙的消息。"},{"start":4948.459,"end":4965.407,"text":"只有不到兩成的民眾付費購買電子書,所以出版業者暗然表示,電子書不出不行,但是出了也不行,因為賺不到錢。請教部長,文化部有沒有注意到電子書免費閱讀占多數的狀況,有沒有了解是什麼樣的原因?我是不是請主持人回答一下,這個事情我曉得。"},{"start":4977.095,"end":4982.618,"text":"為什麼低於兩成的人付費?你如果不是很清楚,可以了解一下,不一定要勉強回答。好,這個很重要啦,因為出版業已經做到所有努力了,但是文化部有沒有去了解這個議題。那我來看,給各位一個觀點。"},{"start":5002.927,"end":5026.463,"text":"以我們阿宅最喜歡的漫畫來講超過七成已經在用數位來閱讀了但是我們認為有一個可能性是文化部沒有做到領頭作用去讓大家了解哪些東西本來就應該付費哪些平台是合法哪些平台是違法我們已經找到非常多的論壇很多的年輕人他想支持正版"},{"start":5026.883,"end":5042.495,"text":"對不起他不知道哪些平台的漫畫哪些平台的電子書是正版哪些平台是盜版這個我覺得不是他們的問題為什麼因為現在網路資訊到處都是我們如果沒有教育年輕人要如何分辨他們如何分辨呢"},{"start":5043.456,"end":5068.309,"text":"其實台灣在購買電子遊戲數位商品的成績,交易量是名列前茅的。全世界很可能是沒有前五也有前十。所以其實大家是很用心的發問,文化部應該要來做到一個示範性的作用,就像打擊黃牛嘛。政府如果沒有作為,黃牛就是一直存在。我想問一下文化部目前有沒有做一些打擊數位盜版、電子盜版的手段?"},{"start":5076.328,"end":5077.569,"text":"我想本質上你們會做,但是顯然做法不夠有效。"},{"start":5098.289,"end":5127.649,"text":"到底如何區分有沒有表列有沒有鼓勵我們看電影的時候前面都有很大的這個FBI等等這個當然有一些做法有一些新的做法都可以討論我希望文化部能不能針對打擊有效打擊出版品非法盜版網站在一個月內向本席提出書面報告這份報告如果我拿到的話我會公佈在平台上網路平台社群平台讓所有喜歡閱讀喜歡漫畫的讀者大家一起來看一下這些做法到底夠不夠可不可以"},{"start":5128.369,"end":5129.19,"text":"我相信這也是文化部支持的。"},{"start":5144.597,"end":5169.6,"text":"當然現在有很多圖書館的介入也不是壞事但我希望大家看到喜歡的數位的東西也可以收藏我想這個付費的比例也希望文化部我們一起來努力提高再來另外一個議題我想要來看這個文化跟AI的結合有一個獲取知識的重要管道就是AI科技我們接下來年輕人或者所有的人"},{"start":5170.04,"end":5192.518,"text":"很可能都是用AI在搜尋、在閱讀、在學習那2018年的文化政策白皮書就有寫到文化科技的核心價值基於科技與文化結合這是一個契機那近日我們的院長呢總統太院長又宣誓要發展主權AI我認為從今年開始或者甚至從明年開始應該是一個最好最好的機會"},{"start":5193.699,"end":5212.018,"text":"目前我們有一個科技跟文化結合最大最大的機會就是我們自己正在發展我們自己的語言模型就是台德的反體中文大型語言模型但是現在它的發展困境就是缺乏反體中文的語料跟訓練的資料我們來看一下這個數據"},{"start":5217.584,"end":5230.699,"text":"67%是政府開放資料。我們來看,其他各國都是在用購買的方式來購買資料。我想請教一下部長,我自己感覺像什麼呢?全世界的AI?"},{"start":5231.46,"end":5238.122,"text":"除了自己的課本免費的資源之外都還在外面補習還在自費買書結果台灣的AI很可憐只能上網找已經公開的資料政府公報這個部長"},{"start":5248.385,"end":5262.22,"text":"您覺得我們應不應該要花一些錢來購買一些數據,或者我們是不是應該更積極的提供資料給台德?您覺得如果要跟出版商洽談授權,一張圖片的授權費用大概多少比較合理啊?"},{"start":5265.533,"end":5282.726,"text":"這部分我說實話我不知道價錢但是我們本身文化不能做的事情就是我們做了很多那個我們本身的藝術那個重整很多藝術史那個資料非常豐富有開放了嗎?我們這一次2.0待會兒會讓你們來盤點一下我來問一下來讓您了解我們這邊有整理了"},{"start":5291.592,"end":5315.506,"text":"這個Google Meta他們平常會願意為每張圖片支付1到2美金短影片2到4美元長影片100到300美元文字內容的市場是0.001美元他是用買的方式來購買這些文字圖像來做訓練那我們其實想請教一下部長您知道台德目前一年大約編列多少預算用來購買合法的資料來訓練嗎?"},{"start":5318.968,"end":5320.75,"text":"議員林宜瑾等27人擬具議員林宜瑾等27人擬具議員林宜瑾等27人擬具議員林宜瑾等27人擬具議員林宜瑾等27人擬具"},{"start":5340.129,"end":5340.409,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":5356.544,"end":5363.749,"text":"我跟部長分享113年台德只有700萬來購買合法資料那為什麼部長您要了解呢?因為700萬裡面有648萬是向中央設來購買新聞圖片跟文字的內容這個比例真的是遠遠不夠啦我們支持一部單一部電影可能就花7000萬合起來可能一點多億結果我們讓我們的台德來補習就花不到700萬我希望應該要更多啦"},{"start":5383.482,"end":5397.549,"text":"同時文化部跟速發部在AI方面的協作也應該要更緊密。我們台德接下來要做這個跟政府公部門的合作,裡面完全沒有文化部。這個文化部有沒有機會來做第6個合作的部會?"},{"start":5400.07,"end":5400.611,"text":" ﹝請審查委員范雲等18人擬具 ﹞"},{"start":5420.127,"end":5423.29,"text":"我們來牽線,還有剛剛您提到的相關的文化資產網還有很多的數據內容我們目前看到台德還有一些相關的團體都說你沒有提供但是內容目前的開放資料的狀態"},{"start":5440.885,"end":5444.888,"text":"一週內以書面回覆給本席。分開講,剛才所有的問題都在於那個我們沒有得到對方的授權,但是您剛才講一週對我們來講大概他也太短,要多久?"},{"start":5470.915,"end":5486.764,"text":"請你原諒我們的人力真的非常不足給我一個月好嗎?好那最後主席有爭取15秒AI的相關的計畫現在有增加但還不夠只有兩個案子600萬希望文化跟科技的結合可以再多一點好不好?謝謝,謝謝部長那部長之後再跟那個委員報告好嗎?好,謝謝你部長請回,謝謝葛如君委員再來我們請陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":5501.841,"end":5508.624,"text":"謝謝主席。請文化部李部長以及行政院人權及轉行政院處賴處長。好,有請李部長、賴處長。部長早安喔。嗨,陳委員你好。"},{"start":5517.417,"end":5536.631,"text":"我們促轉條例有明定,不義遺址保存是轉型正義任務之一。那促進正義轉型委員會在民國110年有公告審定228事件不義遺址有25處。111年公告審定白色恐怖不義遺址有17處。"},{"start":5538.372,"end":5553.356,"text":"在促轉會解散後,行政院有成立人權及轉型正義處。另外,保存不義遺址的事項是文化部來承接。請教部長,在促轉會解散之後對我們的促進轉型正義的推動有沒有不利的影響?您覺得有沒有影響?促轉會解散之後對我們整個促進轉型正義的推動,您覺得有沒有影響?"},{"start":5563.846,"end":5585.833,"text":"他結束以後把他的工作分給不同的部門我們所分到的這個文化部的部門就是不義遺址的已經登錄跟潛在的兩種我們就往下每一年照這個計畫做他有沒有影響我不知道因為在他成立的那段時間我個人完全沒有參加過任何一場座談會所以我不知道他有沒有影響"},{"start":5586.957,"end":5594.512,"text":"好,那我想請教賴處長,人行及轉型正義處你們實質的功能,你們真正的工作大概是做哪些項目?"},{"start":5598.752,"end":5618.288,"text":"跟委員檢要報告我想在促喊條例兩年前配合促轉會的任務告一段落那促喊條例當時其實就是明定行政院因涉推動轉型正義匯報那所以在這個匯報的部分本處是作為院的推動轉型正義匯報的幕僚處這是其一"},{"start":5618.928,"end":5641.492,"text":"那第二的部分就是在匯報的召開相關的會議之外日常的業務的推動我想相關的工作由處長會一個獨立機關分散由主要六大部會來推動那院的人權處其實也需要在業務的日常中跟各個部會有許多的溝通協調甚至統合的工作在推動以上"},{"start":5642.536,"end":5663.315,"text":"好,謝謝處長。處長條例公佈實施到現在已經有6年,但是其實政府機關隊已經公告過潛在的不義遺址的調查保存,修復在利用的這些實際上的推動保存的相關作為比較不足,所以監察院在今年初也已經糾正。我想請教部長您覺得這是吳浩波的問題還是行政院的問題?"},{"start":5665.556,"end":5678.994,"text":"行政院剛剛有提到它每年有兩次的會報然後我們自己文化部才剛剛開過由政委所主持的這個會報那您剛剛講是誰的問題我想我們都非常努力在做"},{"start":5680.071,"end":5696.065,"text":"就是屬於文化部該做的部分我們一直在往下屬於潛在遺址的調查還有現有遺址的保存部長的意思是說你們所銜接下來的這些工作這些任務你們都已經有很認真的在做有有我們可以給委員一個報告"},{"start":5696.986,"end":5720.647,"text":"本期也很肯定發布你們有提出不義遺址保存條例這個草案來加速保存作為但是國家人權博物館呢從107年就已經制定了推動不義遺址保存維護以及人權事務發展的補助要點幾次的修正呢雖然有增加對民間團體的補助但是對直轄市及縣市政府的補助每一年度每一個案補助計畫一直都是200萬這樣的金額您覺得會不會太低"},{"start":5727.25,"end":5729.512,"text":"其實這幾年從國家人權博物館這個補助金額從107年到113年總計補助給直轄市及縣市政府才1527"},{"start":5748.929,"end":5767.702,"text":"一萬多。那因為有修正所以呢博春民間團體總共是61萬。所以這樣子的金額來執行這樣的業務監察院要糾正。所以是不是說這樣子的金額不夠或者是說你們有怎樣的需求提出那行政院沒有支持?部長您覺得呢?"},{"start":5769.042,"end":5793.652,"text":"其實他們只要提出申請我們大概都會支持大概107年到113年我自己這邊有個數據高雄、台南、雲林這邊我們大概有46幾萬桃園我們大概485萬就是其實不如剛剛委員講那麼少啦我們大概都是四五百萬到六百萬那只要地方上提出來我們都盡量配合幫助他們"},{"start":5794.352,"end":5803.66,"text":"那麼部長,針對這個不義遺址的維護管理不當,年初監察院所提出的這個糾正,要求你們要檢討改善,你們有怎樣的改善措施?這個我來問一下好嗎?因為它是非常瑣碎的那種"},{"start":5813.767,"end":5831.165,"text":"您問的那個應該針對的是安康接待室。那安康接待室這個部分現在檢察院的意思是說我們在整個標案的進行上面的程序是不是有延後,但那部分已經補正過來,現在的進度是符合進度的。如果指的是安康接待室的部分我們已經把它補正了。"},{"start":5831.966,"end":5832.046,"text":" ﹝請審查委員﹞"},{"start":5852.799,"end":5872.392,"text":"在115年5月底解散的促轉會有說盤點出來107處的不義遺址並且已經有審定公告其中42處那還有六成就是有65處的待文化部這邊來接手處理但文化部你們現在的報告是說潛在不義遺址只有64處少了一處是那是為什麼?是少了哪裡?那個潛在遺址一旦..."},{"start":5879.844,"end":5906.219,"text":"我們潛在一直一直是有個審議委員會在審議那目前在我們文化不是64處並不是減掉一處應該是資訊有點問題我們一直是64處潛在不義遺址從接手的時候就是64處接手的時候就是64處所以他們交給你們的時候就是這個樣子當初他們的資料給你們是這樣那他們是當初他們的公告的資料有問題嗎?"},{"start":5907.288,"end":5934.526,"text":"這我就不曉得捏。其實我們已經非常努力地根據他交下來的這個遺址在做調查。但是中間你說65跟64的差別,我不太知道什麼原因。好,那沒關係。部長,潛在的不義遺址在彰化縣只有一處,那目前只有在元尼國牆內的遠海軍反共先鋒訓練營是唯一的潛在不義遺址,目前的用途是住宅。我想請教部長,像這樣的潛在不義遺址未來該如何規劃跟運用?"},{"start":5936.506,"end":5963.622,"text":"這部分在我們的條例裡面有規定說只要是變成民宅之後我們就不能強迫他要做任何的改變但是我們會勸說他或者鼓勵他或者是幫助他你們會用勸說或是鼓勵的這樣子的方式嗎還有補助但是他如果堅持不要我們就尊重他好 那麼原來的台灣省行政長官公署暨廣場就是我們現在的行政院縣址也是228事件的不義遺址那像這樣的地方我們未來會如何規劃跟運用"},{"start":5968.021,"end":5972.623,"text":"在促轉會說:「不義遺址的審定標準是以證據完整度高、發生地明確、而且遺址的產權為公有者為原則。」"},{"start":5991.371,"end":6010.222,"text":"所以今天的草案也只有針對公有不義遺址但是我想請教部長說對於私有的不義遺址我們除了剛剛講用鼓勵或者說補助的方式我們有沒有什麼其他更積極的做法因為原屬於私產的舉例像和平日報它也是潛在不義遺址那現在經過"},{"start":6012.924,"end":6017.107,"text":"台中的文資審議憲刊遭到判定他是說不具古蹟著歷史價值的意義的價值那現在真正掌管的這個文化部你們如果沒有比較積極的態度像這樣像和平日報這樣子的不義長址將來也可能就是在沒有配套的措施之下可能隨時遭到拆除那如果我們沒有比較積極的作為我們是不是會造成這些不義遺址漸漸的消失那我們沒有對這些"},{"start":6039.681,"end":6040.663,"text":"不義遺址的規範保護我們有沒有更積極的想法。"},{"start":6044.182,"end":6070.06,"text":"委員你問得非常好,就是我們對於這樣的是私人的我們沒有辦法強制的這種遺址我們就會用3D建模把它做好然後還有就是試著留下在網路上關於這個地址的一些事件發生的過程因為剛剛講說我們沒有辦法強制它做我們就做我們可以做的部分就是把它整個過去的樣子3D建模那這個部分我們一直在做"},{"start":6071.459,"end":6094.573,"text":"好 謝謝部長我再借一分鐘齁那其實因為我時間到了但是我想要請教部長現在因為我們國家人權博物館有提供不義遺址的標示使用規範指引也編列相關的預算那我想請教部長說未來我們設置標示牌那麼我們如何也辦理相關的宣導以及這個教育的這些相關的配套"},{"start":6096.574,"end":6101.838,"text":"好,是不是部長之後再書面報告或是當面向我們那個委員回覆好嗎?可以嗎?可以書面嗎?因為我們整個人權管在教育這個部分已經做了很多不同的項目。我可以請他們給你書面。本席是肯定支持那個標示牌的設置啦。但是相關的你不是設置了之後我就不管它。我們如何就是相關的宣導以及教育的這些配套的措施我們要做。"},{"start":6122.193,"end":6125.456,"text":"我沒有走進校園再推廣這個,沒有問題。好,那謝謝部長,謝謝主席。那部長請回,謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢。再來我們請林一金委員質詢,然後等一下吳佩儀委員質詢完之後我們休息五分鐘。"},{"start":6150.098,"end":6152.521,"text":"謝主席。有請部長跟文職局長。"},{"start":6162.472,"end":6182.251,"text":"林委員你好部長好今天我們尋討的這個不義遺址保存條例是我們教育委員會來審查但是我們看見在我們教育委員會的委員當中沒有任何一個在野黨的委員來提出相關的提案那其實我是覺得很感慨"},{"start":6184.293,"end":6206.945,"text":"希望這部法案在進入逐條審查前藍白相關的教文委員應該可以提出各自的版本來參與討論。為什麼會這樣提?是因為我覺得轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題。我們應該要積極面對國家對人權曾經造成重大傷害跟衝擊。"},{"start":6208.706,"end":6209.887,"text":"外省人的白色恐怖這部影片我們可以知道"},{"start":6238.73,"end":6255.548,"text":"在政治犯的省級比例上本省級佔55%外省級是佔45%所以外省級裡面軍人被捕的這個比例又是最高所以我們身為民意代表我覺得我們一舉一動都具有很大的這個雙面性一方面我們對民意要有傳達"},{"start":6258.331,"end":6271.486,"text":"另一方面我覺得我們也要對民意製造跟強化所以把正確的資訊帶給人民是非常重要的轉型正義真的不是對族群的撕裂恰恰相反轉型正義是各族群大團結"},{"start":6273.268,"end":6297.001,"text":"要求國家要來對於這個過去的錯誤做慎重的反省,正視這個過錯,確保以後不會重蹈覆轍。那所以我請要部長說你是否認同我剛剛這樣的說法,就是說不義遺址保存條例這樣的性質若能獲得跨黨派的委員共同的支持跟做積極的討論,更能彰顯這部法律的核心精神跟預期的效果。"},{"start":6297.521,"end":6305.516,"text":"所以不曉得部長在正式進入主條討論之前你有沒有什麼話想要對委員或全國人民說對於這部條例?"},{"start":6308.516,"end":6328.491,"text":"謝謝委員給我機會回答這個問題。剛才我們前面的很多委員也問到一個問題就是說除了在民國34年到後來解元後的那個時間之外的所有原住民或者是清朝或者是在日本人統治台灣對台灣人的壓迫那些事情我全部都承認他的"},{"start":6329.572,"end":6358.662,"text":"兇者及被害者等事件。我剛才也一再講到我們都拍過非常非常多的電影包括1895年所以都拍成電影但是我們今天審的這個法案是集中在威權統治這段時間因為這段時間的破壞是非常具體的從228事件到白色恐怖它是一個很漫長的時間很漫長到大家在整理的時候都整理不太出來剛才講到外省人45%的話可是外省人當時的人口是更少的"},{"start":6359.142,"end":6385.431,"text":"對。所以它受害者不是某一個族群或者是某一個黨派。假如我沒有記錯的話,人權管的設立不是在我目前執政黨的手上。當然,對。那就表示說在原來人權管的設立的時候沒有什麼黨派的問題。它不是一個藉由這個法案通過之後再去清算鬥爭對方,不是。所以我希望大家不要把這個法案通過不通過"},{"start":6386.351,"end":6388.312,"text":" ﹝請審查委員范雲等18人擬具 ﹝請審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具 ﹝請審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具"},{"start":6415.545,"end":6442.619,"text":"當年人生的自由與財產剝奪是多麼容易的事。放在現在這個時代,大家言論這麼自由,你要講什麼都可以,你讀什麼書都可以,可是你很難想像在那個年代,你可能只不過是讀一本有點左派的書,你就被逮捕。你說不定說錯一句話,而且那句話也不是這個意思,也被關了十年,是想要讓大家看到那個不合理,你會覺得很荒謬。"},{"start":6443.699,"end":6468.358,"text":"其實我覺得這個法案通過不是為了清算鬥爭他應該是所有黨派都應該支持他通過要來面對歷史謝謝部長那麼詳盡的說明那我想我還跟你提到一個就是說台北市政府他現在主管的一個文化警官就是戒嚴時期政治受難者的墓園長期以來都沒有受到妥善的維護那去年有爆出說"},{"start":6469.299,"end":6474.963,"text":"一篇殘存的竹蟲遭破壞之外,剛過世的許家輝議員當時也點出木園的入口跟指標系統不明確,道路毀損。所以它造成了安全疑慮以外,也讓探訪的民眾很可能會破壞木園的景觀。"},{"start":6492.935,"end":6517.562,"text":"當初的嘉賓議員就呼籲說,台北市長蔣萬安必須要正視這個白色恐怖的迫害史,並且對這個狹下的不義遺址會啟動更積極的這個保存工作。可是看起來,直到今天,台北市政府還是依舊很消極。那這幾天就有文史工作者反映說,屆時期這個政治受難者墓園目前草長到可以遮蔽文資,那第三墓區甚至都進不去。"},{"start":6518.522,"end":6536.881,"text":"所以我要請教文化部說對於這種狀況不曉得有沒有掌握那如果根據文資法的規定如果地方的主管應作為而不作為那導致這個文化資產的這個破壞那是不是中央也有權介入改正那所以面對這樣的狀況不曉得文化部有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":6539.232,"end":6562.599,"text":"可以請局長回答這個消息我知道我其實那個地點對我來講我也非常清楚有一部電影叫超級大國民還用那個地方來拍它是一個非常非常重要的地方但是因為它的管轄權是在地方我在這裡呼籲我希望地方與中央對待這種不義遺址是用相同的心情還是回到我原來剛才講的那個理念就是它不是一個"},{"start":6563.439,"end":6563.519,"text":"好,謝謝部長。"},{"start":6578.476,"end":6580.798,"text":"那也請部長這個積極跟台北市政府要求那看有什麼樣的協力作為那另外要請教是說促轉會公告就是說228級白色恐怖不義遺址有共計42處"},{"start":6593.826,"end":6612.317,"text":"那這些不義遺址根據我們現在院版的這個條文42條直接就適用到所謂相關的保存規範可是我們還有一些所謂的潛在的不義遺址那根據院版條文第13條對於這些潛在的不義遺址主管機關是要建立個案資料來優先來審議那現在問題來了法務部也有注意到就這些優先審議又或者審議中這些潛在不義遺址是否"},{"start":6620.942,"end":6648.051,"text":"就是說我們要怎麼樣去把它除了優先審議以外怎麼做出比較相關的這個保障才會確保它未來這個會難以保存部長你聽懂我的意思嗎所以這些現在只是說優先審議而已那我的意思說在優先審議之外有沒有更具體的更多的保障目前不然等到我們確定它是不義遺址它已經被破壞殆盡了"},{"start":6655.037,"end":6669.971,"text":"我們現在除了在審議之外,我們有幾些保護的措施。第一個我們只要是公部門的部分,我們有發文給他們,就是說如果這個有涉及到未來開發行為的話,先通知文化部,我們會協調來看是不是能夠盡量來不要去做一些破壞的這種動作。"},{"start":6672.489,"end":6681.533,"text":"最後30秒就是說我的選區新化就是說有一個出身在新化出身的很重要的文學家那大家有什麼能想的楊奎那楊奎先生明年就是他40週年那2026年是他名單的120週年"},{"start":6690.538,"end":6707.5,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6707.76,"end":6711.142,"text":"不義遺址保存條例草案：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":6737.344,"end":6763.293,"text":"這筆經濟費是透過文學館在編列文學館在組織然後文化部正在審核當中但是您講到楊奎正好就是一個最好的例子他在日治時代的時候就被迫害被關起來到了國民政府的時候他再度被迫害所以他所謂的迫害不是哪一個時代我覺得他是一個非常好可以拍電影的題材就可以講到這種所謂的不義的定義是比較開闊一點"},{"start":6765.433,"end":6778.58,"text":"時間已經超過,是不是部長可以事後書面或是當面向林宜瑾委員回覆這個?我最近才剛剛在看楊奎的書。再請文化部協助楊奎全集的出版。謝謝,謝謝部長。謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢,部長請回。再來我們請吳佩義委員質詢,吳佩義委員質詢完之後休息五分鐘。"},{"start":6792.138,"end":6795.605,"text":"謝謝主席,我請李遠部長。好,有請李部長。吳委員你好。"},{"start":6802.148,"end":6825.464,"text":"部長好今天我們在討論的不義遺址條例即將要立法那其實它關乎的是整個國家對於轉型正義的推動那轉型正義其實是在學術當中我們政治學門裡面好新興的一個研究它也是經過各國的比較政府研究因為不是只有台灣要去面對轉型正義的問題轉型正義在處理的是什麼呢是政府對自己的反省"},{"start":6832.968,"end":6859.816,"text":"在民主轉型的過程之前威權統治時期曾對人民對人權產生的各種迫害以及後續的移序現在的政府無論哪一個政黨來執政都必須要代表國家代表政府來對自身做出反省這是全世界所有後威權"},{"start":6860.856,"end":6862.497,"text":"擬具〈不義遺址保存條例草案案〉案。"},{"start":6878.3,"end":6898.881,"text":"原住民遭遇的不公我們不只處理轉型正義我們還要處理的是歷史正義所以2016年我們國家組成了原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會這些通通的不義都要面對都要處理我都支持所以還是回到根本的我們今天在談論的所謂的不義遺址"},{"start":6903.251,"end":6925.799,"text":"他可能是刑囚的場景他可能是監禁的場景他可能是槍決的場景這背後種種的不義也就是我們所謂白色恐怖期間所發生什麼樣的事呢?他關乎到了侵害人權關乎到了可能被迫失蹤在你們的條例說明裡面他包含了監控、逮捕、刑囚、強暴、槍決以及人體解剖"},{"start":6930.841,"end":6943.212,"text":"這些歷史的真相必須要被人民知道這些歷史曾經的不義導致了這麼多家庭的不幸應該要讓人民能夠有記憶我自己呢也要非常感謝文化部這幾年尤其我們國家文化記憶庫的努力因為我的外公他是"},{"start":6957.859,"end":6976.235,"text":"在戰爭以前被國民黨從溫州分發來台灣在金瓜石山上教書的一個小學老師那從小我聽媽媽說一個故事是外公曾經被關起來關進牢裡一年多的時間"},{"start":6978.923,"end":6990.894,"text":"那一年我外婆正在懷我媽媽在肚子裡。我外婆一直要跑到台北,他們住在瑞芳,一直要跑到台北要找蔣經國來陳情。因為他認為外公是冤獄的,外公並沒有參加共產黨的組織。然後我從小看到外公的背上面就有幾條很長的疤痕。"},{"start":7000.922,"end":7022.702,"text":"我沒有去把它細細了解說到底發生什麼事我只知道在外公身上在外婆身上曾經發生這樣不幸的事件一直是到我們的文化部的國家文化歷史記憶庫的資料出來這個潘玉培先生也就是我的外公我才知道原來他那一年才30歲比我現在還要年輕"},{"start":7026.005,"end":7044.596,"text":"然後我才知道他是瓜石國小第二批被逮捕入獄的而第一批逮捕入獄的有當時的潘城的校長跟方碩等主任他們被逮捕的那一年同年11月7號就差不多我們現在這個季節就被槍決處刑了"},{"start":7051.451,"end":7056.129,"text":"所以我想我們對歷史的真相需要不斷地來挖掘。"},{"start":7057.967,"end":7075.872,"text":"而對於人民的道歉這個不是哪一個政黨的事這個是國家的事不管哪一個政黨來執政都必須要去面對這樣的歷史責任而我非常遺憾的看到上一次上一屆的立法院在議場裡面討論轉型正義的時候有國民黨的立委是翻桌"},{"start":7085.78,"end":7094.827,"text":"這是一種不願意面對歷史責任的態度所以我在這裡要再次的期盼因為今天我們是進行不義遺址保存條例草案的詢答接下來我們委員會會進行逐條審查我希望不分黨派我們大家"},{"start":7102.725,"end":7118.584,"text":"都可以來理性的來討論我們未來對於不義遺址將如何作為首先我今天要跟部長提醒的是因為之前促轉會公告的106處全國潛在不義遺址其中在我的選區中正區因為台北市古宅最多就佔了12處大約十分之一"},{"start":7120.146,"end":7144.042,"text":"所以我在台北市議會的時候就非常的關注我們究竟該如何來保存這些遺址呢?監察院2018年當然有提出說文化部過去在預算上面每年只編列了230至540萬之間給予地方政府包括台北、新北、桃園、高雄、台南都有我們的補助案我去看了一下這些補助案大部分是什麼案?調研案"},{"start":7144.642,"end":7149.367,"text":"也就是說我們還處在非常基礎的階段我們需要先調查再研究我們才能夠了解這個不義遺址它究竟過去發生了什麼事而我們未來該如何保存它"},{"start":7155.686,"end":7175.025,"text":"所以經費剛剛有前面委員說他覺得以後編會編太多了那我是認為這個可能編太少了但是到底是多還是少要怎麼辦你們必須要去定義究竟這些不義遺址未來我們希望地方政府如何來保存活化台北市的六張禮"},{"start":7176.664,"end":7196.895,"text":"2016 2016年的時候市政府文化局就已經文資法登錄了但是呢他的這個委管狀況一直很糟到2019年才有我們地方文史工作者的努力才發現說原來裡面還有我們不知道的案件還有新挖掘的犯件也就是說他的調研基礎工作其實尚未完成再來他現在的現狀最近發生的事情裡面的這個蠶唇竹蟲是一個象徵嘛像異象"},{"start":7204.079,"end":7212.847,"text":"整個被剷除並且棄置那臺北市文化局說這應該是殯葬處的事市政府殯葬處說這應該是文化局的事所以你看就連地方政府之間到底是哪一個單位要管都全責不清再來我再舉另外一個例子我們臺北市也有臺北臺灣新文化運動紀念館這個裡面代表性人物大家知道嗎蔣渭水、黎憲堂還紀念新文化運動但是這個場所"},{"start":7230.748,"end":7237.866,"text":"其實不是新文化運動代表性人物他們任何一個人開會的地方這個場所過去是什麼是警總的拘留所"},{"start":7239.355,"end":7242.037,"text":"所以你進去這個經驗館裡面你其實你看不到這個地方雖然它是不義遺址但你看不到它應該要被記得的那段轉型爭議的歷史所以我們現在有條例了我們有法源依據未來我們希望地方政府如何來進行不義遺址的保存跟活化我認為文化部必須要很負起責任除了立法以外我建議部長我們是來訂定一個指引"},{"start":7265.792,"end":7268.933,"text":"包括 what kind of basic research and investigation you should do."},{"start":7268.933,"end":7283.118,"text":"那未來在活化裡面是不是有幾種的類型。我們可以先來提供一個指引。讓地方政府以及地方的民意代表也在監督啊。讓大家能夠有一個明確的方案說現在已經有法源依據了。那我們希望未來我們如何來對待這些不義遺址。目的是什麼?目的是我們希望"},{"start":7289.5,"end":7296.665,"text":"他不一定要重建,他也許只是遺構,但他其中的歷史意義必須要被記得。部長有沒有辦法來定性指引?好,我們來試試看,因為這個我覺得這個條例我希望在立法院"},{"start":7305.236,"end":7306.597,"text":"等18人擬具兼具兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":7325.086,"end":7336.697,"text":"現在已經完成了有四處我們的不義遺址像你的金美、綠島、金面園區、國防部的臺灣居然監獄然後調查局安康接待室這四處都已經有數位的虛擬重建但是針對我剛剛講的已經沒有一個的不義遺址其實如果你有足夠的檔案、照片等等文獻的話現在的技術AI也是"},{"start":7347.927,"end":7353.913,"text":"有可能可以進行虛擬重建的所以我希望這個也一起來評估那我們在進主條審之前我們來做一個討論好不好好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩玉委員的質詢那部長請回那我們休息五分鐘那之後請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":7833.271,"end":7835.072,"text":"好,我們繼續質詢,現在請萬美玲委員質詢。好,謝謝主席,我們有請部長。"},{"start":7853.468,"end":7863.672,"text":"范委員你好好部長辛苦了我想今天您也一直在提到這個不義遺址保存條例其實我們知道其實它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的那其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後這些業務就像您今天報告的嘛"},{"start":7874.957,"end":7888.046,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7889.411,"end":7911.705,"text":"我們繼續來討論我們在過去審查促展條例的時候有一些爭議在當然那時候您說你都還不清楚當時那個爭議不過現在不義遺址條例這個草案同樣有發生一些盲點我想您一定有看到很多的專家學者或是其實有很多的委員其實都有呼籲轉型正義跟不義遺址的保存不能單純的就是在34年的8月15號到81年11月6號期間"},{"start":7915.888,"end":7943.002,"text":"那是應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等那應該以1895年5月8號日本取得台灣主權作為開端那本來我是想問一下部長的看法但剛才我有聽到部長的答詢那您的答詢我剛剛一字一句的把它記錄下來您是這樣說的您說其實不管是針對34年到81年甚至於到這個日據時代以及甚至於您還提到清朝的時候這些您全部認同"},{"start":7943.962,"end":7947.406,"text":"我剛是一字一句把它記下來的喔那只是現在這個條例草案我們討論是34年到81年所以你就是就這個部分比較具體的這個這個事件喔那你去做一個這個討論喔那我想這裡我要來請教部長喔"},{"start":7960.201,"end":7976.738,"text":"您剛所謂說在34年到81年這段時間它是比較具體的那難道您剛自己所說的您所認同的在日據時代甚至於在更早以前的一些事件難道就不具體嗎我想請教一下部長您也是來自影視界的文化人賽德克巴萊您看過嗎他的電影我全部看過好那這裡面講的是事實嗎"},{"start":7982.999,"end":8006.15,"text":"應該是接近事實。接近事實,所以有不事實的地方?因為任何的考據、拍電影的…好,沒問題,我同意您一下要講的。那我認為啦,就是說在這個我們所謂的日據時代所謂的物色事件,我們看到不管是原住民的這些我們的朋友們,對於當時反抗日本的高壓統治,那發生了一些其實很讓大家遺憾的事情,"},{"start":8007.551,"end":8008.831,"text":"：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":8028.997,"end":8048.217,"text":"稍為的不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部上,文化部是一個主責的機關喔,那如果按照您剛剛所說的您非常同意只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年,那這我想請教部長那是不是我們是主責機關在這個審查的時候您願不願意把這個期間把它擴大更完整更來包括"},{"start":8049.398,"end":8061.828,"text":"所有我們應該去討論的這個轉型正義的包含的期間像您所說的可能日據時代我們也把它加入或者您有更好的想法把它擴大我們來真正的尊重歷史達到轉型正義您同意嗎?"},{"start":8063.186,"end":8092.806,"text":"根據您的問題我有兩個回答一個就是剛剛講到具體所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代對著名的破壞是具體但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來台灣開始到發生228事件到38年來之後開始38年的戒嚴它是一個漫長的全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的一個統治方式"},{"start":8093.246,"end":8099.368,"text":"我想您有點弄錯我的問題,我重複一下我的問題我想您要提到34年、81年這個部分其實我們有意見我們要在這個期間去做討論、去做審查我覺得在討論、審查的過程當中大家還可以有不同意見的表述這是對歷史的看法跟尊重跟我們想要完成、我們想要達成的這個目標但是今天討論的是說我們這個期間這樣對嗎?所以您剛剛也說,您認為日據時代也是"},{"start":8121.254,"end":8121.434,"text":" ﹝請審查委員范雲等18人擬具 ﹞"},{"start":8148.365,"end":8164.545,"text":"那我跟您講一下我的心情齁心情齁心情對因為今天趙偉給的時間很有限你的心情可以短一點點可是我心情很重要啊因為我現在是文化部長啊好好您請說就是其實在那個促轉會的過程中我沒有參加過任何一場促轉會是就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的"},{"start":8165.546,"end":8165.706,"text":" ﹝請審查委員﹞"},{"start":8181.861,"end":8184.044,"text":"我今天要提出幾個問題啦。我覺得既然您也認為說這個時間點其實是可以再擴大,我是建議您可以去考慮是不是把它擴大。"},{"start":8196.698,"end":8222.648,"text":"但是我們今天來討論就是說你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例草案第4條當中規範說主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料並且進行審議跟公告那根據文化部的統計目前不義遺址42處這是過去這個處長會公告但是我們還有潛在這個總共大概64處我想請教一下什麼叫潛在那目前還沒有經過審議怎麼認定的您簡述一下"},{"start":8223.368,"end":8224.409,"text":"接下來我們再來討論在草案第五條第二項規定說"},{"start":8240.6,"end":8252.832,"text":"不義遺址的個案資料主管機關應該要以網路或其他方式公開現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下但是有一些它是其實私人的產權你這樣公告出來會影響這個隱私權跟所有權益"},{"start":8257.967,"end":8277.72,"text":"我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址,但是在公開的過程中,我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址。不過部長你不能用猜的啊,因為財產不是你的啊,所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀。對對對,那我是不是請執行單位報告一下。"},{"start":8281.425,"end":8282.546,"text":"我們目前有公告的是已經審定,當時促轉會已經審定的"},{"start":8290.154,"end":8319.349,"text":"對外公告的。我想這樣子啦,部長我覺得關於就是說這個當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護我希望你再去了解一下不要用心權判斷這件事情那其實我們也有在講說主管機關是有這個保護跟審議不義遺址你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查不過要尊重他的意願用適當的方式為之部長我再請教您一下怎麼尊重適當方式是什麼?"},{"start":8320.879,"end":8321.66,"text":"我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。"},{"start":8332.145,"end":8355.545,"text":"我們只能用勸導吧。只能用勸導。那好,如果說我們只有勸導一職,今天部長在這邊講,那我把它記下來了。那最後我想我要特別提一下,就是說如果我們有一些強制的行為等等,我們把這個私人的不義遺址列為個案,那這個行為是行政處分嘛。那按照您剛剛講的是說,這個私友人他是有權利來拒絕的是嗎?"},{"start":8357.533,"end":8358.894,"text":"我希望不要用這個維護不義遺址的名義事實上可能會侵害了民眾的這個財產飲食權"},{"start":8380.537,"end":8381.238,"text":"我可以跟你見面講我三個舅舅怎麼樣被破壞的故事?OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":8404.538,"end":8409.461,"text":"謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢。部長請回。那再來我們請郭育晴委員質詢。主席好。有請部長。有請部長。委員好。"},{"start":8431.051,"end":8449.711,"text":"部長早安。我想實質今日台灣已經是一個非常自由民主的一個國家了。英國的經濟學人其實他們在二月的時候特別在公布這個2023年全球167個國家台灣全球排名第十是亞洲第一。"},{"start":8451.032,"end":8454.134,"text":"另外在國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度的報告。台灣名列前茅是自由的國家。我們是亞洲第二,僅次於日本。"},{"start":8465.822,"end":8481.274,"text":"那相對的來講中國再度被列為不自由的國家我想大家都覺得台灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像垂手可得像呼吸一樣的自然但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘那我想今天其實我們在討論這個不義遺址的部分我們可能前面我們先把台灣民主自由是怎麼過來的我們簡略的真的來回顧一下"},{"start":8494.384,"end":8499.829,"text":"二二八事件1947年其實當時統計被殺就是被這個屠害的人民就是平民呢從2000到25000人之間那之後的白色恐怖那當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕那甚至有1200人以上是被處決"},{"start":8520.087,"end":8543.793,"text":"那包含我自己的這個阿公內輩的親戚朋友那曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔一排人跪著他們的背後呢是手是被鐵絲一串一串這樣一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決的那這個其實都是我們這一代"},{"start":8544.366,"end":8552.833,"text":"我們沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的一個事件那我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講就是說這個不義遺址這個名稱啊或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的這個日治時代的部分"},{"start":8561.74,"end":8573.405,"text":"但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下既然是不義遺址我們是把它定義為就是在228事件還有台灣的白色恐怖的這個時期對吧"},{"start":8576.476,"end":8579.158,"text":"我不是覺得從中華民國、民國34年到台灣的這個時間算起。其實他當年講的就是在黨國體制下,國民黨政府他是如何侵害人權。不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點,包含刑求、包含審判、包含刑刑的一個地方。"},{"start":8602.86,"end":8607.143,"text":"當然其實2017年其實我們在提這個所謂的轉型正義的時候我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生的地點我們來做一個盤點這個叫做不義遺址那我想呢這個唯有面對誠實的面對歷史我們台灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由民主健康的一個國家我想部長應該也同意吧"},{"start":8630.356,"end":8644.143,"text":"我們知道其實全台灣現在已經目前有審定公告有42處的這個不義遺址那其中跟228事件相關的有25處白色恐怖的事件大概相近有17處那麼其餘呢預計這個64處的潛在的不義遺址的公告呢會在"},{"start":8649.065,"end":8667.19,"text":"一百一十五年可能會完成就是完成整個所有的公告那相關的這個作業的規範還有這個人力我們是不是有逐步的到位那目前為止部長所掌握的這個盤點的這個進度大概是如何可以跟我們報告一下嗎?這一點我想請前辦大會報告一下好"},{"start":8670.533,"end":8691.408,"text":"我們現在對於這個不義遺址有潛在的不義遺址我們現在一個進行的在專法還沒有通過之前我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址進行現刊然後預先的討論他的這些個案資料等到專法通過之後我們會加速審議公告的這個作業那另外在我們人權館也做了很多的一些推廣的活動"},{"start":8692.948,"end":8715.694,"text":"再來我們也在審議的過程當中也諮詢了很多學者專家的意見未來我們的推廣作業也都會參著他們意見加速的進行我想這個不義遺址要怎麼樣來保存怎麼樣來活化怎麼樣運用這樣子的一個不義遺址成為我們的歷史的一個教材其實真的也非常的重要但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的一個態度相關"},{"start":8718.175,"end":8732.544,"text":"那這個部分是不是我們的部會跟這個地方政府的有沒有取得一些共識或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善的對話然後來取得共識然後把不義遺址這樣子來做一個保存的一個政策目前跟地方政府的溝通的狀況如何"},{"start":8734.821,"end":8751.664,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8752.164,"end":8766.331,"text":"我剛特別有提到就是針對這個不義遺址的這個保存活化的一個方式其實第10條有特別明定我們將設置一些歷史的標誌或者是我們的這個侵害人權的事件的一個解說甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址的這個線上3D的環境的這樣子的一個導覽"},{"start":8772.333,"end":8792.881,"text":"我記得其實在112年到114年其實我們想說文化要向下扎根所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算大概是2.45億我想這個公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去然後到其他的相關的文化的一些場域"},{"start":8795.041,"end":8814.146,"text":"來做一些對自己的歷史或者是對自己的一個本土的文化的一個認同那我想在這個部分如果文化部是不是有在我們的校園人權的這個議題有沒有納入到我們的一些課綱或者是現在已經有納入課綱像我知道像這個高雄大學這個校長他也特別率隊"},{"start":8815.326,"end":8821.333,"text":"他也特別做了一個類似有點像線上的一個有點像遊戲的一個方式納入了一個課綱那在推出的時候其實九月份的時候推出線上的一個說明其實也獲得很多人的好評啦就是我們是以那個故事性的一個主角是1949年海軍的白色恐怖案來做這樣的主題"},{"start":8836.389,"end":8857.855,"text":"但是這個是線上,把它拉到了實際的不義遺址的部分我們在這個文化往下扎根的部分我們是不是也能夠讓很多的學生能夠了解自己本身在不管是戶外的教學上對台灣本土的認同那這個部分我們在不義遺址的這個部分有沒有相關的一些規劃?"},{"start":8858.857,"end":8883.187,"text":"有,這個部分反而是我們人選館做最多的。我們設計過好幾套教材,然後讓學校來借。有些教材是可以借半年、一年。然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽,也請學校的學生來參觀。也有當時真正受害者,比如說陳烈,他現場也是一個導覽員。"},{"start":8885.088,"end":8909.065,"text":"還有一個校園的列車開到校園去還有辦人權營長等等我來之後我還希望那個人權營長可以辦得更大型就讓我們的那個人權館有一個比較標的性的活動就是大型的人權營長等等我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極我是事後可以給你一個很完整的報告"},{"start":8910.446,"end":8932.735,"text":"謝謝部長。我想這個不義遺址的維護不義遺址的保存跟不義遺址提醒我們台灣的民主歷史的本土的這個怎麼樣進程的一個過程其實是對我們來講誠實的面對歷史我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家我想這個也是我們真的要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝郭委員"},{"start":8936.101,"end":8942.228,"text":"好,謝謝郭益勤委員的質詢,部長請回。再來我們請張雅玲委員質詢。有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。好,有請部長跟館長。"},{"start":8961.528,"end":8982.668,"text":"財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。"},{"start":8987.731,"end":9015.792,"text":"今年應該是2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬。那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了。就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的。那我自己其實看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛。從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元。但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿到50萬,現在他直接砍一半。"},{"start":9017.081,"end":9017.261,"text":"請審查委員"},{"start":9032.017,"end":9057.359,"text":"我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算嘛我們增加了17%的預算嘛那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是說部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費"},{"start":9058.3,"end":9067.477,"text":"回到當年的水準呢?不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚"},{"start":9070.189,"end":9074.755,"text":"我看一下促轉基金的費用其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作"},{"start":9089.173,"end":9106,"text":"而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢?"},{"start":9116.118,"end":9116.918,"text":"但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦。"},{"start":9135.965,"end":9159.964,"text":"那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工項但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的教育推廣沒有增加啊我看2025年是1100萬啊我是說總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算對是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛那個是總體預算的調整啦對"},{"start":9162.867,"end":9174.185,"text":"我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望就是說我們可以來做個時間好好討論因為你就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權那個預算因為人權款2021年是4億9千萬"},{"start":9178.582,"end":9199.931,"text":"總體的預算上的確是會有不同的因素。對,所以我想,因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望……所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單……主要的一個單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去……對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望,拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎?"},{"start":9201.428,"end":9208.669,"text":"我跟委員講,這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好"},{"start":9209.633,"end":9209.713,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":9234.869,"end":9241.172,"text":"我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說"},{"start":9242.591,"end":9271.156,"text":"我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有一個106處未來可能還會增加嘛我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉"},{"start":9272.97,"end":9289.502,"text":"水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧"},{"start":9291.164,"end":9317.081,"text":"再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有"},{"start":9317.941,"end":9340.084,"text":"而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面?"},{"start":9341.205,"end":9369.494,"text":"這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論像蘇汝貞這個牆像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論好 謝謝喔 謝謝因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦那再來就是說原住民的部分因為其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽那剛剛前面也有委員提到除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害其實是廣泛於在各個族群那原住民其實也是相當的"},{"start":9370.794,"end":9381.1,"text":"一群受到迫害的族群。當年國家安全館也做了一個相關的主題展。但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例。"},{"start":9383.22,"end":9403.517,"text":"但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第8條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。"},{"start":9403.817,"end":9404.677,"text":"檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查檢查"},{"start":9432.563,"end":9457.079,"text":"都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款"},{"start":9457.659,"end":9484.73,"text":"尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史"},{"start":9485.35,"end":9485.57,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":9521.792,"end":9524.413,"text":"請文化部長好,有請部長葉委員你好部長好,我先跟你詢問一下另外一個不義的事情啦就是我看到前兩天文化部有回應記者的詢問的時候說現在已經受理了1300件黃牛票的檢舉案請問最新介紹幾件呢?到今天為止介紹幾件呢?"},{"start":9549.398,"end":9551.6,"text":"兩天前是1300件嘛,那今天是幾件?幾件?"},{"start":9561.488,"end":9583.962,"text":"兩千多少?兩千七百件。兩千七百件。等於是說兩天前一千三百件,現在已經兩千七百件,已經兩倍以上了。所以之後可能會越來越多啦齁。那我想問一下部長,因為兩天前文化部接受媒體訪問的時候說要修法。說要修法二指,請問是要修法的方向是什麼?"},{"start":9585.461,"end":9586.061,"text":"我舉一個最近連續兩場那個"},{"start":9613.098,"end":9615.499,"text":"：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":9642.088,"end":9656.551,"text":"所以最後如果這些都不行的話就可能考慮修法那所謂的修法就是您看看用什麼方式所以部長的意思是說未來考慮要修法讓以後的演唱會都實名制當然不是是這個意思當然不是你剛剛講就是這個意思不是部長我們來這邊答詢時間有限可不可以針對問題回答因為這是一個因為你剛剛講說你參考了別的演唱會發現它實名制跟週票有用所以我們考慮說因為過去都是勸說所以我們考慮說未來都採用這個方式所以你是要修法"},{"start":9670.694,"end":9678.899,"text":"以後都實名制是這個意思嗎?不是,那你剛剛講那一連串。主席,主席,會議詢問。主席,主席,趙偉,趙偉,會議詢問。如果,因為我們,先暫停好不好,先暫停。可以啊,暫停啊。詢問什麼?不是,我們,因為我們問的問題,那個部長一直繞圈圈,那繞完6分鐘就結束,我什麼都沒問到。"},{"start":9691.428,"end":9715.098,"text":"因為剛剛我跟部長問他說那個文資法要修法要怎麼修然後才能夠惡意黃牛然後結果部長說像我們參考有一些演唱會用實名制我們現在是勸說但是實名制效果很好所以我們要考慮修法那我就問他說那是不是要修法成以後都實名制他又說不是那等於是剛剛那前面三分鐘我們不知道在講什麼可不可以跟"},{"start":9716.999,"end":9732.492,"text":"現在你問我的這個會議詢問,這個不算時間,那但是待會我想這個部分我沒辦法直接介入就是說部長的答案你會請部長針對問題回答,不然這樣子繞半天這個答詢再來你自己跟部長直接繼續"},{"start":9734.373,"end":9734.734,"text":"等18人擬具"},{"start":9751.547,"end":9752.228,"text":"我只講這個事情而已。"},{"start":9772.148,"end":9774.05,"text":"所以主席你認為說部長不針對問題回答是OK的,反正交給選民來政治判斷喔?所以你覺得剛剛部長這樣子有針對問題回答?你覺得剛剛這樣子有針對問題回答?"},{"start":9791.112,"end":9807.144,"text":"就是那個我想這個部分我就不介入判斷不介入判斷要不然每一個不同黨派的委員都要求我判斷的話我覺得我只是要求說請你站在主席的角度現在在立法院被詢就是要針對問題回答如果說只是想說我要把16分鐘拖掉"},{"start":9808.425,"end":9808.585,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":9826.912,"end":9836.04,"text":"我沒有質詢你啊,我只是說你作為主席,不然主席做召委。我沒有辦法接受判斷。那主席請問一下,我們要求他按照問題回答,這是可以的嗎?我可不可以回答?我可不可以回答?我可不可以回答?那你的會議詢問我已經答完了。好,謝謝主席。"},{"start":9851.544,"end":9851.604,"text":"你剛剛為什麼不講?"},{"start":9861.454,"end":9885.366,"text":"我只是一個前言講到說最近有這樣一個兩個好請說不要再浪費時間了不要打斷我我們會繼續跟地方政府嚴密考慮所瑕的大型場館就是大型場館都是由地方政府在管我們來設計實名制入場的規範或者優惠優惠就是我們現在正在做的你用實名制我就給你一些補助"},{"start":9886.306,"end":9914.771,"text":"提振業者採行實名制入廠的意願第二與相關單位延伸重新思考合理的銷售成本強制實名制資料調查權等措施調整之可行性好那這修哪一個法因為你們文化部說要修法嘛那你現在都是用鼓勵啊或是在執行上面比較強硬啊那你要修哪一個法我的問題是你要修哪一個法"},{"start":9919.496,"end":9931.908,"text":"對嘛!你現在就沒有要修法嘛!你剛剛講那兩個都是說你要鼓勵透過獎勵或是更嚴格的方式落實實名制嘛!那我現在問題是說你要修什麼法來遏止黃牛?你要修文創法方向是什麼?你要怎麼修?所以就是你要..."},{"start":9942.077,"end":9958.077,"text":"議員范雲知不知我先問你的態度嘛不要扯別人嘛我態度已經講了嗎?你的態度就是要修文創法以後規定實名制是不是?不一定就不一定了所以所以你修法內容是說以後我們不一定實名制那這個法律有修跟民修有差我剛才為什麼要一個字一個字唸就一個字部長部長"},{"start":9960.278,"end":9984.764,"text":"你沒有回答到我的問題沒有關係啦我覺得按照昭北說法這就大家可受公平啦因為你們告訴媒體說你們考慮修法我來這邊問你要修什麼法你又告訴我說你一直在執行上面你要更鼓勵大家做實名制然後你又說希望我們立法院可以支持你就沒有要修法你要我們支持什麼我現在就是你就是沒有針對我的問題回答沒關係沒關係這我們就交給我們這個大家去公平啦那我再問部長一個問題"},{"start":9986.404,"end":10002.439,"text":"現在那一天你來的時候剛好中午有時候是周杰倫的黃牛票開賣然後當時早上很多人都提醒你說網路上有非常多周杰倫的黃牛票在代購我當時也有提醒你然後部長你的意思是說有人檢舉我們才會辦我們不主動稽查"},{"start":10004.481,"end":10031.47,"text":"結果後來整個網路炸鍋一堆人確實就是因為繞圈圈買不到所以政府開始動起來了警政署下令然後地方政府文化部就開始去查所以剛剛講說2700多件嘛我只要提醒部長第一個啦如果在開賣之前你們就主動積查的話那麼多人檢舉給你們你們主動積查的話實際上情況可能會小很多第二個現在即便是你們積查有抓到很多黃牛那衍生出幾個問題我跟請請教第一個"},{"start":10032.19,"end":10038.234,"text":"那些黃牛他們買到的票他們搶到的序號有的搶到幾百個序號請問一下這序號怎麼處理?搶到的序號怎麼處理?你問的問題是必須主辦單位你就是打黃牛的主辦單位阿?NO NO NO又不是喔?"},{"start":10055.44,"end":10080.35,"text":"經紀公司也好。經紀公司。主辦單位。所以打黃牛這件事情是經紀公司自己去打,文化部不關?委員,其實你要知道黃牛的生成是非常複雜的。不是啊,我今天不是跟你在討論哲學的問題,我問的問題都很具體。我的問題是說,這一些用掃票機器人在網路上掃到了序號幾百個,後來因為稽查的結果發現這些都要沒收碼。"},{"start":10081.07,"end":10087.275,"text":"那怎麼處理?你們的做法是還給主辦單位還是沒收?還是怎麼處理?我現在問你這個問題嘛。這問題很具體吧?"},{"start":10092.332,"end":10114.497,"text":"我們無權沒收。無權沒收,所以怎麼處理?我一直在跟委員解釋。那怎麼處理嘛?你無權沒收好,那這個序號就沒了,所以主辦單位就空在那邊,還是說你們抓到之後會把這個序號還給主辦單位,請主辦單位擇期再一次辦理線上的搶票,是怎麼做?你們都沒有去想到嗎?"},{"start":10116.308,"end":10145.465,"text":"你們都沒有去想到這個問題嗎?然後我再請教一個問題等一下一起回答那有人因為事件已經跟黃牛買了他看到代購網站他事件已經跟黃牛買了錢已經匯給黃牛了結果這些黃牛序號被沒收以後被沒收以後這個票他買不到那黃牛又不還錢給這些人那所以造成的問題是司法問題對不對?是民事嗎?還是政府會怎麼樣去處理這件事情?兩個問題簡單回答吧因為我時間到了"},{"start":10146.772,"end":10172.309,"text":"委員好,先謝謝委員的意見喔,那先說明一下因為那個基本上黃牛這邊他其實當時是不正方式的掃票就是警方沒入之後他其實是一個刑法偵查的過程所以這一下我們前面在新聞高手也有對外說明我們其實會主動跟主辦單位了解但主辦單位目前的狀況是他這邊的說明是他先配合警方他相關的序號確實現在是警方這邊還在持續偵辦當中那我們會持續跟他們溝通怎麼樣是對消費者權益保障"},{"start":10176.752,"end":10176.852,"text":"第二個問題"},{"start":10206.049,"end":10209.39,"text":"這部分確實可能會是屬於司法的部分,但委員關注了這個會去多了解一下目前有哪幾個案例是需要。謝謝委員。好,謝謝葉元之委員質詢,部長請回。那再來我們請林宜瑾委員代主席。"},{"start":10239.031,"end":10240.753,"text":"接下來請范雲召委質詢。謝謝林委員。我請部長。有請李部長。"},{"start":10253.288,"end":10261.254,"text":"范委員你好部長早我想今天為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例今天早上有很多的對話當然我想聽起來大家都不反對支持這個部分只是對於它的範圍就是有一些不同的討論回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址的保存條例促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚要還原歷史真相"},{"start":10280.708,"end":10300.026,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10300.146,"end":10311.493,"text":"大概前一段時間我到一個大學邀請我因為是關心性別平等的超過100個學生演講那我一開始剛好講到林宜瑾寫案跟林義雄先生發現學生表情茫然我問一下現場超過100個學生有沒有人知道有沒有聽過林義雄"},{"start":10325.396,"end":10346.201,"text":"結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎?您猜100個人中會有幾個人聽過林義雄?我覺得沒有人聽過那部長非常的了解現在學生對歷史知道的很有限沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄我再問說有聽過林宅血案的舉手部長您猜有幾個人舉手?"},{"start":10348.682,"end":10365.254,"text":"很幸運的有三個人舉手問他說他們知不知道林宜瑾案是什麼他們完全不知道那部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上文化才能開花結果直繁業茂吧"},{"start":10367.503,"end":10393.186,"text":"部長您同意吧?同意啊所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史這個自由民主沒有辦法守護甚至社會也沒有辦法對話我們對歷史可以有不同的看法但是需要對話對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情嘛你詮釋觀點可以有不同那剛剛有講到淡江中學淡水中學它是我小時候常去玩的地方"},{"start":10393.846,"end":10416.822,"text":"我也是到很現在才知道當年是臺灣第一的新式學校原本叫淡水中學很多年輕人知道他是周杰倫的母校但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳門通他為了保存被軍人殺害的學生的權勢在體育館中他後來再也沒有回來過"},{"start":10418.903,"end":10440.594,"text":"當年的董事長淡江中學、淡水中學的董事長林茂生有多少師生都是死於二二八到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到這麼重要的歷史我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道我想這個東西就是現在的急迫性如果我們連國家"},{"start":10442.697,"end":10459.689,"text":"要能夠肯認事件發生的歷史價值做民主教育社會對話都沒有的話那我想就是很多人權的議題這個社會不會關心的那剛剛我一直提醒大家就是未安婦她應該婦女團體希望證明是軍事性奴隸你可以說"},{"start":10460.209,"end":10481.282,"text":"竹子姓奴隸俗稱慰安婦其實文化部有支持慰安婦的紀念館的保存我上次也有質詢部長說是不是能夠放在擴大為婦女人權館你們願意評估我想這些都需要努力但是今天我們希望聚焦的不義遺址這個部分是未完成的工作部長應該知道"},{"start":10483.424,"end":10501.254,"text":"稅務委員會解散後移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究吧因為這個部分是很清楚的是文化部所屬的工作那我想現在現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是經促進轉型這一委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的"},{"start":10509.478,"end":10515.141,"text":"所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做如果沒有新法源的話這個審議我想就會發生問題部長同意吧"},{"start":10518.997,"end":10543.39,"text":"就是沒有法院進行後續的審議跟保存嘛。同意齁。好。那當然我想范迅綠堅委的報告也指出說文化部就是做得還不夠。你們有做一些大家覺得不夠。而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助。譬如說我們現在主席的台南市就有做湯德章等做得比較多的。但是整體"},{"start":10544.07,"end":10570.452,"text":" ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ"},{"start":10570.973,"end":10585.469,"text":"這是一個很明確的定義歷史是什麼不義遺址保存條例很明確就是說國家未達成鞏固威權統治之目的侵害人權事件之發生地他是比較有明確定義的那另外就是"},{"start":10585.469,"end":10613.422,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10613.422,"end":10618.585,"text":"他其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞詢問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所。視定古蹟也指定是不義遺址,可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度,剛剛講臺南有湯德章的紀念公園,"},{"start":10638.114,"end":10653.865,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10655.586,"end":10669.557,"text":"當時報社中有左翼人士被警招查封清算,記者編輯被逮捕判刑,著名作家楊奎也在其中。可是現在呢,因為地方政府做成不列冊追蹤的決定在案,面臨拆除危機。"},{"start":10673.2,"end":10680.104,"text":"我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟的態度不一樣,我們會面臨很大的問題。我想像剛剛講到那個牆的問題,那我們到荷蘭就會看安妮的日記的作者,他保存當年的空間是怎麼樣在那裡完成那個日記,然後外面的很多人排隊排了非常久,我記得超過一個小時才能看到。"},{"start":10701.956,"end":10709.462,"text":"其他的國家包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分。我相信時間真的不夠了。我們絕對需要立法保障。否則我們剛剛看到這麼多的重要的遺跡、人權的發生、被傷害的發生地都正在消失跟破壞中。"},{"start":10725.875,"end":10732.563,"text":"我還是肯定文化部有做一些努力包含我們剛剛講的綠島、人權館等等可是這個部分"},{"start":10737.95,"end":10762.638,"text":"根整個的社會的氛圍我覺得就像我剛講的大學生100個人就是完全不知道林宜瑾寫案所以空間能夠讓大家對歷史的了解我們要說一個完整的故事才能讓下一代了解就是過去國家怎麼傷害人權也才能夠生出就是對自由民主守護的一個信念"},{"start":10764.659,"end":10767.823,"text":"經過我的詢問,文化部目前有規劃部會分工有針對潛在遺址先期審議就是在等待母法通過以訂定相關執法與辦法所以就是萬事俱備只欠法源啦所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動"},{"start":10783.12,"end":10806.529,"text":"那對於相關的法條希望能夠更熟悉那怎麼樣能夠做一個文化部長就要對我們全民做一個公共教育保存不義遺址、克不容緩那當然我們落實促展基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好好嗎監察院覺得你們不夠好那今天您有做一個解釋那我們希望能夠克服困難能夠更好好不好"},{"start":10809.505,"end":10833.426,"text":"我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話我覺得我會努力讓這個法通過但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟好像不能夠面對真正的那個其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法我們只是對範圍界定就是說有不同的意見那是可以討論商量的好嗎部長您自己詮釋的時候我剛主席在那邊沒有一個委員說"},{"start":10834.667,"end":10851.647,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10855.001,"end":10873.446,"text":"人權傷痛不能忘維護歷史記憶是我們這一代很重要的責任我們要讓下一代都了解自由民主得來不易威權對人的傷害有多大只有空間存在才能說一個完整的故事謝謝部長謝謝范委員謝謝范委員也部長請回那我們接下來就請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":10888.691,"end":10895.913,"text":"請羅廷偉委員質詢。羅廷偉委員你好。部長好。部長,今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案,請部長來解釋一下,請問什麼是義?你覺得?"},{"start":10914.397,"end":10939.003,"text":"一、二。可以跟我分享一下嗎?一這個字齁,看你要擺在哪裡來講。就是一種道義嘛。就是心理所作所單位的道義。我覺得最珍貴就是人與人之間的道義。大概就這個意思吧。我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋啊。它有三種含義。合於正義的。比如說義舉。"},{"start":10941.362,"end":10968.194,"text":"再來議名再來又來週記公眾的地方議莊、議社第三種蠻特別的我們也常見的他是假的有其名而非真的怎麼會這樣?他舉例義父、義子、義知對吧?好像教育部的解釋沒有錯"},{"start":10969.628,"end":10998.616,"text":"是一種義務嘛,不是血緣關係。對對對,但是他是說假的,有其名而非真的嘛。那我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下什麼是遺址?就是過去留下來的但是值得保存的地方。好,那您解釋得非常正確喔,其實歷史值得讓我們去做一個探究。那剛剛范雲委員也有討論,也有講到其實這個所謂的歷史啊,值得我們去做一個探究之外,"},{"start":10998.976,"end":11012.712,"text":"當然多加一些溝通討論是有必要性的所以我們要講不義遺址保存條例的草案我們支持怎麼會不支持只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸希望能夠更加的明確"},{"start":11014.013,"end":11035.552,"text":"那我想第二個就先暫時以院版的草案來說不義遺址要如何保存活化怎麼做怎麼修復那又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義是我們今天在教文文化委員會要討論到的一個重點這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有些教育的意義可以認同嗎"},{"start":11037.378,"end":11060.451,"text":"是部長,那你有聽過清德宗嗎?顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝,部長知道是誰嗎?我不知道,我對清朝知道的不多不太知道,沒關係我們分享一下,是光緒皇帝那我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗請問部長知道是誰嗎?"},{"start":11062.04,"end":11079.409,"text":"我知道欸。好,輿論認為是現在的賴清德總統,宛如讓台灣的生活在威權統治之下。所以網路輿論稱他為清德中。我在引述的是網路輿論。那我想要跟你分享的是,我們看到PTT喔,很多人啊,"},{"start":11080.249,"end":11106.73,"text":"覺得台灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期我是不是具體也建議一下部長我們先看一下這個案例在賴清德拆南鐵逼90歲老人兩小時搬家自救會的會長怒我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目"},{"start":11109.437,"end":11111.22,"text":"那這算不算是不義?"},{"start":11112.486,"end":11140.24,"text":"那當然它不是遺址,可能要改成不義場域。我可以回答,假如我知道的話,南鐵當初是中央通過由地方來執行,就是這樣,這麼簡單的一個概念,可是大家要把這個錯一下。那我想問你,你說中央通過,那地方可以去不去執行嗎?當時他所面對的態度,新聞畫面都有。如果你要全部推給馬維拉,那我想,他既然認為這是中央的決策,他可以不去執行啊。"},{"start":11141.516,"end":11167.785,"text":"那現在他看到了他還是實際的去執行他面對民眾的陳情面對民眾的血淚他當時的回應呢今天我們不在這邊具體的去闡述過程但我要講的是我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20至今因為時間點有包含現在所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用我們用不義常譽不義"},{"start":11169.325,"end":11194.259,"text":"現在的地址我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做一個闡述但是不義遺址我要講的是我們今天不是要針對賴總統我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例讓大家能夠清楚的明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義是全民的不義是歷史所探究的不義嗎剛剛是先引言"},{"start":11195.279,"end":11207.287,"text":"我們之前公佈院版草案的時候就有媒體來問我不義遺址保存條例的看法我的態度很明確就是我認為歷史好的壞的全部都要被記下這句話你可以認同嗎?"},{"start":11208.749,"end":11227.564,"text":"當然當然要認同可以吧是好或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞網路輿論但是歷史應該要整體的全部做保留讓孩子能夠知道讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照耀鏡看到全面對嗎"},{"start":11229.158,"end":11251.172,"text":"有歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的一個借鏡。沒有歷史的話我們不知道我們應該往前要怎麼走。所有歷史曾經發過的悲劇希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的曾經發生過刑求、口供、槍決的事情會發生在台灣民主時代的這一刻嗎?不會。"},{"start":11254.045,"end":11281.455,"text":"會因為思想把你逮捕嗎?刑求嗎?槍決嗎?不會。那就是因為台灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代。它不會倒回去。你說對嗎?我支持。所以我剛剛開眾民意就講,不義遺址保存條例草案,我們支持啊。但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你,請問一下你有看過賽德克巴萊嗎?"},{"start":11284.971,"end":11295.146,"text":"對,謝謝你支持。我們都支持。這是非常好的一部國片。但裡面所闡述的內容呢?我們就講鄭成功就好了。鄭成功對於追隨他的難民"},{"start":11296.67,"end":11318.24,"text":"移民來到這邊,他是超級英雄。到現在台灣世俗可見顏平郡、王室、顏平北路、顏平中學等名稱。但當鄭成功降臨在台灣這片土地的時候,對於當時所居住的原住民,卻可能是毀天滅地的一個災禍。如果歷史背景是在這樣的情形當中,那麼誰是義?誰是不義?"},{"start":11321.454,"end":11334.74,"text":"現在我們看到賽德克巴萊您說您支持裡面的內容不需要我再闡述為什麼這些賽德克巴萊人他們最後群起要去反對甚至做出這些舉動"},{"start":11336.696,"end":11360.981,"text":"當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入"},{"start":11362.316,"end":11389.008,"text":"難道他就可以被忘記?他就可以不用保存?他就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎?所以今天站在這裡的所有委員還是再一次強調意識形態是你所說的我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史這樣子我的態度很明顯我想"},{"start":11390.506,"end":11417.529,"text":"院長、部長,您怎麼看?我忽然覺得今天的所有討論都非常好,因為至少國民黨的議員都加入討論,對不義遺址提出新的看法,我個人覺得非常好。我覺得所有事情經過這個過程,會讓大家看得更清楚歷史,我覺得是一件好事。我們一起來討論,未來我希望列入這個法案大家一天一天討論,好嗎?所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整,是嗎?"},{"start":11418.149,"end":11443.135,"text":"我沒辦法決定一切。沒關係,我可以讓你決定。我說你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的,賽德克巴萊也是啊。那你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見,你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分,能夠再拉。大家一起討論吧。那你認不認同嗎?我不管認不認同,我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把台灣所發生過的所有悲劇"},{"start":11445.801,"end":11461.307,"text":"提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍,而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品,譬如228的電影就是悲情城市,白色恐怖的電影就是姑林街少年殺人事件,這一次韓國得獎的諾貝爾獎的作家韓江"},{"start":11466.289,"end":11495.184,"text":"他的作品就有關周事件,換句話說當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇,它反而是一個最深層的故事。我非常認同,所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入,而不是你所界定原本的這個草案的悲劇的時間軸。所以最後我要講文化政策的一個制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性,需不需要考慮到包容性。我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究,謝謝。"},{"start":11497.745,"end":11509.693,"text":"謝謝羅廷威委員的質詢。部長請回。再來我們要處理臨時提案。臨時提案提案人林宜瑾、范雲、聯署人陳秀寶。我們是請一些人先宣讀。"},{"start":11517.113,"end":11535.728,"text":"不義遺址標示系統上路之間對台灣幾處不義遺址先行完成標示包含行政院、白色恐怖警媒紀念園區、台南灘德章紀念公園、白色恐怖綠島紀念園區、新生訓導處及綠島感染監獄、高雄市立歷史博物館員、高雄市政府等處。"},{"start":11536.468,"end":11559.7,"text":"除前段提及這地點外根據處長會任務總結報告該會議以針對全台多處不義遺址進行社會盤點與初步認定有待不義遺址標示系統掛牌標示鑒於歷史教育之重要性以喚起社會大眾對於人權、馬斯恐怖、歷史及轉型正義的關注帶動更多的省思與討論"},{"start":11560.82,"end":11574.19,"text":"文化部應盡速進行不義遺址標識系統之依序標識作業,並於一個月內提出將如何進行標識之作業期程規劃。提案人林宜瑾、范雲吳培毅、林曙元、陳培玉、陳秀廣修等完畢。"},{"start":11577.38,"end":11593.039,"text":"請問提案委員林警委員有沒有要補充說明或意見?好 謝謝 謝謝主席我是認為那個不義遺址這個標示系統應該是持續辦理的一個事項就如同我們那個陳文成博士那個紀念碑還有那個紀念碑的解說一樣"},{"start":11593.499,"end":11619.33,"text":"竟然清楚地解說說這個地方發生什麼像人權迫害我覺得這也是一個非常好的人權教育所以我覺得從我手上這本書上這個還有42就我們不以此228228跟白色恐怖不以此有47處嘛那這裡面有完成標示的就如同我提案說明這幾處而已所以我覺得我們應該要好好的在做"},{"start":11620.09,"end":11642.718,"text":"持續性的處理。那之前像那個章阿玲委員也有在總指揮提到過行政院其實可以加入這個不義遺址的導覽因為行政院那邊也有一些標示那大家也可以去行政院看那這個都很好所以我期待說那個我們文化部這邊在針對這個標示做一些這個系統的規劃那作業期程也讓我們委員會知道以上"},{"start":11649.155,"end":11670.841,"text":"好,謝謝林宜瑾委員。請問其他委員有沒有要補充說明或意見的?好,沒有。那請問部長有無補充說明?沒有,我們就遵照辦理。OK,好。那就照案通過。那如果有委員要補簽的話,請那個可以到前面來,那議事員會詳細登載在議事錄。好,那接著我們繼續進行質詢。請鄭天財委員質詢。"},{"start":11677.537,"end":11678.918,"text":"外委員會4分鐘主席、各位委員、有請部長。有請部長。部長。政務委員你好。因為行政院沒有依法行政、沒有依法編組預算。"},{"start":11702.588,"end":11704.129,"text":"好,今天文化部的報告。"},{"start":11720.799,"end":11741.795,"text":"委員提案就是我的提案本席的提案擴大威權統治時期及不義遺址的定義之時期範圍包括清代及日本政府以武力征法致嚴重民主或部落重大傷亡或受難之重大歷史事件發生地均屬制這是你的今年的報告"},{"start":11742.996,"end":11766.588,"text":"裡面還提到有關委員提案擴大威權統治時期不義遺址之定義範圍以促轉條例之時期定義不符,建議以行政院草案審查。這個部長還有文化部的同仁看清楚本席的提案第三條不是寫威權統治時期"},{"start":11768.274,"end":11790.686,"text":"所以你的報告寫說威權統治時期我擴大威權統治時期我的條文沒有寫威權統治時期我的條文是寫極權統治時期自清代至中華民國八十一年十一月六日至之時期可能還要考慮八十一年是不是夠了"},{"start":11793.53,"end":11821.186,"text":"我們現在原住民社會在討論現在的政府是不是極權政府、霸權政府、獨裁政府不義遺址我們做了一個定義部長、文化部的同仁在轉型正義條例裡面沒有就不義遺址做定義有就威權統治時期做定義"},{"start":11822.674,"end":11846.859,"text":"但是沒有就不義遺址做定義這要很明確而本席所提的提案叫極權統治時期極有兩種也有一個極極極極端的極啦也可以改為霸權統治時期族裁統治時期都可以而事實上我們看蔡總統"},{"start":11852.045,"end":11876.792,"text":"他在105年8月1日向顏住民主道歉的時候,他怎麼說?四百年來每一個曾經來到台灣的政權透過武力征伐、土地掠奪、強烈侵害了顏住民主既有的權利。這不是我說的,是蔡總統說的。而這也是歷史的事實,歷史的事實。"},{"start":11879.601,"end":11906.6,"text":"總統府原住民族歷史正義與轉型正義委員會設置要點很明確的就是講因外來歷來因外來政權所導致原住民的潛力受侵害剝奪歷史這很清楚所以這個部分我們既然是在立法就要把它立得很清楚"},{"start":11908.257,"end":11930.837,"text":"原住民族重大歷史事件不是只有二二八事件之後不是只有民國34年之後部長你的意見如何我完全同意啊好所以要請這個我們所有的委員能夠支持本席的提案因為"},{"start":11932.133,"end":11960.944,"text":"各族群阿美族、賽夏族、排灣族、格瑪蘭族、沙其萊雅族、泰雅族、泰魯格族、布農族、沙雅各族都有而且這些歷史事件啊、演名會啊都有多群的專家、寫者啊從我在中央演名會當處長的時候就開始啊我們就開始編轉了"},{"start":11962.765,"end":11964.586,"text":" «不義遺址保存條例草案》案。"},{"start":11996.249,"end":11997.153,"text":"主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":12006.338,"end":12027.781,"text":"羅委員你好部長我反對國民黨在威權時期包括白色恐怖包括228對於所有的人民的侵害但我也感謝國民黨在執政的時候保衛台灣跟建設台灣的努力"},{"start":12028.991,"end":12051.697,"text":"我反對日本在殖民時期對原住民、對台灣人、對慰安婦種種的侵犯,但是也不能否定掉日本在台灣的時候曾經有很多的建設。歷史應該功過階層,不要選擇才是公道,是不是?部長你覺得?"},{"start":12053.024,"end":12078.071,"text":"當然是非常好那我希望部長待會就秉持這個原則來看看鄭天財委員他提的版本他把所謂的不義遺址保存條例的適用時期擴大到清代的集權統治以降納入原住民族在清代日據時代重大人權侵害的歷史事件相關場域都把它包含進去請問部長你認同嗎"},{"start":12081.701,"end":12102.942,"text":"我們這次審查的法案的時間點是在威權統治這一段。部長,但是我完全認同剛剛講的那一段,原住民被破壞的。我不但認同,我還會希望能夠把它畫成漫畫、拍成電影。但是跟我們今天要審的法案的時間點是不一樣的。部長,我告訴你,時間點就是個藉口。"},{"start":12104.903,"end":12121.867,"text":"議長說促進轉型正義條例定義的時期不符所以今天你跟我講你畫了一個國民黨執政的威權時代作為時間點嘛那我想請問你不義條例跟促轉條例是同一套法律嗎促轉條例是不義條例的母法嗎應該不是法律吧"},{"start":12125.558,"end":12135,"text":"對阿,不是他的母法因為我們還沒有通過這個法對阿,我說促轉條例不是不義條例的母法所以我要說一句話很簡單的事情啦"},{"start":12136.424,"end":12156.621,"text":"剛剛大家問到你的所有的問題,部長你自己都認為說,你不應該做區別嘛。你任何時期,任何的執政者,今天對於台灣的功跟過,應該要具體併成。很奇怪,為什麼你今天就特別畫一個國民黨執政威權時代來跟我講,今天法院只能討論這個?"},{"start":12158.082,"end":12176.96,"text":"誰告訴你今天法律只能討論這個的法律在制定還沒立定之前不就是立法委員討論我們把涵蓋從所謂的清代到日據到所謂的這個國民黨執政甚至到現在來代代的把所謂的不義的狀況陳列出來有什麼不好呢請問部長從34年到現在"},{"start":12181.121,"end":12186.387,"text":"我反對啦!我說過對228跟白色恐怖這部分都反對啦!那你就贊成日本殖民時代對原住民的殘害嗎?你沒贊成但你反對把它列到這個法律裡面嘛!來!部長我問你好!我問你好!"},{"start":12203.291,"end":12228.61,"text":"日據時代對人權有很多的迫害嘛。你不否認嘛。完全不否認啊。謝謝你啊。而且我們拍電影啊。尤其台灣婦女被迫為慰安婦至少2000人以上。那麼日軍在台灣各地營區設慰安所目前多數軍事用地。唯一不在管制區的花蓮秀林鄉慰安所遺址只靠民間的婦員會在保存。"},{"start":12229.21,"end":12257.687,"text":"那我就問這件事情,你要不要把這個所謂日據時代的慰安所都列入不義遺址?在你今天的法律有辦法把它列進去嗎?日本時代是一個殖民時代,中華民國是一個我們回到祖國。哇!你的標準真繁複啊!所以在殖民時代破壞人權是沒關係,到了所謂的民主、到了所謂的國民黨執政就不可以,都不可以啦!部長我再問你喔,最後關於不義遺址我也必須坦白說啦。"},{"start":12259.008,"end":12288.648,"text":"各國很少有國家直接用轉型正義這個用語然後轉型正義工作主要在了解跟揭露正向讓社會繼續教訓未來避免重蹈覆轍然後如果說今天你去定義正義就會有另一方為不正義那同樣的不義遺址是主體是國家的不義跟不法但放在場域對所有權人就會覺得在場所為不義變相遭受譴責建議把不義遺址名稱直接使用歷史場址取代"},{"start":12289.389,"end":12290.35,"text":"這兩句話你認不認同?沒關係很快,一分鐘內。來,認不認同部長?我要想一想。這兩句話是監察院的調查報告寫的。"},{"start":12301.496,"end":12324.518,"text":"我告訴你基本上對於國家的不義不法我也反對但是你今天你知道立法院旁邊包括康南商工包括喜愛登飯宴獅子林大樓全部都被你劃到所謂的不義遺址裡面去你對這些私有所有權人不就監察院講的嗎對他們而言其實說真的不是很公道羅委員不好意思因為超過一分鐘了那部長後續再跟羅委員報告或者是書面報告好嗎"},{"start":12327.321,"end":12334.406,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的質詢。謝謝你。那部長請回楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員。不在。黃婕委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請部長。好,有請部長。"},{"start":12354.469,"end":12374.368,"text":"韓委員你好好李部長好其實從剛剛諸多國民黨的委員口中的論述就知道說我們要捍衛這個不義遺址保存條例的重要性因為到現在國民黨還是不願意面對過去威權時期在台灣所產生的這些不義遺址的傷害"},{"start":12376.209,"end":12394.659,"text":"正所以所以我們必須要正視歷史這是為什麼我們現在在這邊討論要把不義遺址入法設定專法如此的重要在這邊先講一下這個前提那當然我還是要講一下我的版本因為想先問一下部長確實我覺得剛剛其實羅志強委員錯用了監察院的報告他裡面其實針對不義遺址這樣的詞彙並不是說這樣就會有任何負面的效果"},{"start":12404.884,"end":12410.508,"text":"因為在國家如果有任何的歷史事件有不義跟不法必須要正確的指認並且提醒我們持續反思過去的錯誤所以這一些不義遺址確實是應該要讓大家知道在台灣這樣的土地過去就是發生過這些事情嘛"},{"start":12422.856,"end":12444.649,"text":"但是在監察院裡面報告提到的是如果有一些其他的場址不是在這邊發生任何侵害或不義但是例如說它是一些行動者有在這邊聚集的一些場址這些或許它並非不義場址但是它可以變成是另外一種轉型這一裡面包含的人權場址"},{"start":12446.11,"end":12471.399,"text":"或許這樣的場域我們也可以把它納進來所以在我的版本裡面是把它擴充就是不只是不義遺址還有更多類型相關的只要是在過去歷史上發生過的類型的這些轉型正義的場址都可以在這一次的專法裡面進行討論所以舉例來說就是在我們的草案裡面有一些是包括它是現在私人的部分"},{"start":12472.361,"end":12476.262,"text":"那針對這些私有產權的部分其實有一些產權者所有權者他們可能會認為說用一個人權長址他們願意但是如果你把它也只認為不義遺址或許他們要願意接下來被活化保存甚至去協助大家認識這樣的歷史的過程或許對他們來說反而是有阻力的所以我也是希望說接下來有機會的話名稱或許也可以把它更廣泛的"},{"start":12501.65,"end":12518.709,"text":"那違人權長職的保存條例那這是我的一個建議另外這個我剛剛有提到這個空間的部分因為其實按照目前的定義它是侵害人權事件的發生地但是如果按照這個定義的話或許就無法南瓜過去廣義"},{"start":12520.931,"end":12547.559,"text":"政治受難者抵抗國家暴力的場所例如所有的政治受難者的故居或者是我剛剛講的他們在這邊發生社會運動或是任何公民行動的根據地這些場址我認為他也有轉型正義的價值那所以是不是請教部長對於以上這一些場域的定義的看法那是不是也有機會在這一次的條例裡面也把這些相關的場址更廣義的納進去"},{"start":12549.431,"end":12574.342,"text":"我想我們列入討論可以列入這次在法案中討論到底那個範圍可以設定多大就是除了我們講的是曾經被羈押行囚這些點才算是不義遺址還是這些受害者他曾經發生過的地方他住的家等等那這個的確是一個涉及蠻大的可以列入我們在這個法案審法案的時候一起來討論"},{"start":12575.202,"end":12601.728,"text":"好,感謝部長正面的肯定那我希望大家更廣泛的討論才可以更全面認識我們過去經歷過的歷史那其實在高雄也有包括其實在白色恐怖時期以及二二八時期像是原本美麗島雜誌社附近現在美麗島捷運站附近然後原本的唐榮鐵工廠其實就在高雄的八五大樓那一整塊還有原本的壽星戲院這一些我也希望接下來在審查的時候如果這個專法"},{"start":12602.828,"end":12628.328,"text":"通過了過去的潛在不義遺址的這些地點也都可以優先來進行審議那最後一個小提醒就是希望我們接下來針對這些私有產權的部分比較不好處理的就是他們你們也只能鼓勵他們盡量讓他們可以提供作為活化作為保存嘛那是不是應該要有一些誘因讓這些私有產權者他們也願意來做這樣的文資的保存工作以及來讓大家更正確的認識歷史呢"},{"start":12630.56,"end":12648.379,"text":"就像我們古蹟保存一樣,我們會有一些補償或什麼,我們一定要列出來。一定要他願意我們才會做。好,謝謝部長。那也希望接下來在審議的時候,這些針對是有產權者的誘因,你們的補償,這些更正向、更鼓勵的東西一定要讓我們看到。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。"},{"start":12653.404,"end":12680.377,"text":"謝謝黃婕委員的質詢。那部長請回。再來鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前委員。林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員。蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員。陳亭飛、陳亭飛、陳亭飛委員。顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員。高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員。翁曉琳、翁曉琳、翁曉琳委員。"},{"start":12681.926,"end":12706.199,"text":"無春城、無春城、無春城委員。今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢。另有高金、素梅、翁小玲、無春城三位委員提出書面質詢。關於今天會議,我們作如下決議。報告及詢答完畢。委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報。"},{"start":12707.574,"end":12730.376,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分,請文化部及相關機關競速以書面答覆。不義遺址保存條例的相關草案,我們另定其審查。報告委員會,今天議程我們順利完畢,現在休息。謝謝各位,謝謝大家,辛苦了。"},{"start":12746.339,"end":12750.189,"text":"鼓掌今天生日快樂我們祝李遠部長生日快樂"}]}},{"id":"156316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156316","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade9082ae256bc0678e67ff13663af3209ef293381db574b3e92f620ca07494474b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:58:26 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其實它是佔了6成的以上所以說詐騙集團很喜歡用虛擬貨幣把錢匯出方便把錢匯出去這個其實是一個現在實務上面的問題那前沒有多久桃園地檢署才起訴了一件就是詐騙集團勾結的律師還有臺銀的行員就把騙來的錢1.1億用泰達幣他把它洗到國外去"},{"start":59.642,"end":88.361,"text":"主委我想跟你說明一下我們刑案辦很久了我很理解一件事情任何一個財產犯罪人民最在意的是錢拿不拿得回來至於被告會被判多久那是次要的事情他們最在意是怎麼樣把錢拿回來可是呢這段時間不管破獲再多的機房再多車手錢還是沒有辦法留在國內甚至回到被害人的手上所以我想請教主委現在透過洗錢防治法"},{"start":89.782,"end":104.867,"text":"遵循聲明的虛擬貨幣業者現在目前到底是幾家現在總共有26家那有幾家是外國的現在詳細數字應該只有一家一家是外國的那我請教一下那你要怎麼樣"},{"start":106.4,"end":121.156,"text":"掌握這個人民的錢被洗到國外去如果照這樣講你看有八成的臺灣照遠見的那個調查有八成的臺灣人他是把虛擬貨幣是投資在國外的交易所那如果照你這樣講的話那其實對國外的交易所根本"},{"start":122.217,"end":149.324,"text":"劃外之地嘛你沒有辦法掌握嘛對不對然後3月我記得今年3月的時候金管會來這邊備詢有委員就是有提出說這個境外交易是目前最大的洗錢漏洞政府要趕快管那你6月的時候來這邊備詢你也有提到說你說對這個問題啊你會找國外的政府還有機關合作還有一些國際組織來合作共同解決主委這是你說的對不對是"},{"start":149.844,"end":157.529,"text":"好那現在10月了啦除了剛剛說那26家本國還有你說有一家那個他國的啦那到底"},{"start":158.547,"end":185.729,"text":"有在臺灣我們民眾能使用的這個虛擬貨幣的業者有多少家我想這樣好啦全世界幾千家嘛對不對可以使用的有幾千家嘛對不對對非常多好那你現在控管到的就是國內26國外一家這是你們目前能控管所以我請教你6月的時候你備詢的時候說會跟國外政府還有國際組織合作那目前掌握了哪些國家有哪些國際的組織跟我們合作"},{"start":187.338,"end":207.994,"text":"我們現在當然是跟洗錢組織是合作最密切反洗錢的組織哪一個反洗錢組織?就是我們亞洲反洗錢的APG就來我們這邊做鑑定的那個APG上次我們還有辦評審員的訓練其實我們在這方面一直都從那邊得到很多的協助跟資訊"},{"start":208.755,"end":237.474,"text":"但是不管怎麼樣你看一下你跟APG合作而已嘛那APG它也不算是一個什麼官方的組織嘛那你這樣合作效果在哪裡或是它的會員國也有限啊它不是全世界都是它的會員國嘛因為我這個我以前在法務部也是受那個洗錢防治的訓練都有看過這些資料但是現在有個問題就是說像你剛剛講的國內有16家、國外1家但是我剛剛有提到世界上有幾千家等於是無法管理"},{"start":238.234,"end":266.139,"text":"照這個比例來說我們現在那個打架事法裡面通過有一個就是我們這次把那個VASP的帳號已經納入跟那個電資信用卡跟銀行帳戶一起來做管理啦那比如剛剛委員提到那個錢還不回來我們那個條文裡面也有提到假設我們查扣的話經過比如說可以有更快速的法源可以返還這個錢你講的是查扣嘛對不對但是我現在要告訴你的虛擬貨幣的問題是它馬上匯出國外啊是查扣不了"},{"start":267.179,"end":292.302,"text":"我們在實務做了那麼久了是查扣不了不是說查扣拿不回來我想主委你要弄清楚這件事情好不好那因為太多錢流出去所以6月的時候檢察官有開一個研討會他也是一直在罵說儘管會是消極的不管理消極的不管理這是檢察官們在研討會的時候的結論所以不但控管不了案子也讓民眾的錢留不在臺灣就都匯出去了"},{"start":292.762,"end":317.505,"text":"那控管不了就會發生前端應該控管好的行政機關沒控管好搞得後端的司法機關焦頭爛額所以我跟你說齁我覺得啦我們現在要注意幾個點就是說你金管會應該做的事先你要我們在預防那個虛擬貨幣的犯罪嘛那事終我們要想辦法把被害人的錢留在臺灣那事後我們就透過執法去找到這些犯罪證據對不對所以齁"},{"start":318.806,"end":337.842,"text":"我還是要麻煩你們金管會不要把問題丟給後端前端沒有管理好後端都很難管理所以這個問題麻煩你們注意還有就是最後30秒其實我知道你們不是只有管洗錢這件事情其實整個市場的交易"},{"start":339.056,"end":356.255,"text":"還有一些交易的安全、健全消費者保護那資訊安全、貨幣發行這個你們都要控管但是你們可以藉由落實這個控管可以去達到監督的效果不要讓後端的司法機關讓那些檢察官、調查官、警察一直罵你們金管會他們罵很兇"},{"start":357.296,"end":373.34,"text":"然後民眾也氣得半死因為我跟你講雖然我們的法制化大概是中斷在世界是中斷班對於這個虛擬貨幣的法制化是中斷班但是我們國人使用網路的那個比例太高所以你一比較起來那個數字就很可怕"},{"start":373.72,"end":400.034,"text":"其實謝謝報告委員其實消極不作為這樣的指控是對金管會是不公平的啦因為其實我們在過去很多作為我們也針對這個做專案報告所以說其實上當然指責很容易但是我覺得我們還是會努力來做剛剛委員指證的這個東西可是就只有你們能管啊你說這個指責不公平那只有你們能管別人管不了那你說我管不了就算了嗎不是只有我們比如說還有其他的部會也都要一起來努力沒關係啦就是說"},{"start":400.954,"end":418.113,"text":"這樣啦那還是請金管會兩個月內能夠交付一個報告全民痛恨痛恨詐騙然後錢迅速流到國外在座的每一個人委員大家都有同感好不好國人也很在意這件事金管會主委這是你主責的事情麻煩你好"},{"start":418.894,"end":426.883,"text":"把這個事情再落實那兩個月內能夠給我們一份報告看接下來怎麼去控管這個虛擬貨幣的部分謝謝主委謝謝中線委員接著我們請楊瓊英委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"16221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16221","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcb2ea4a3bfaaca62b445fc32f41448fc00202062f76816a17ec7e47a67f55e1785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案。\n二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【10月30日及31日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-30T08:30:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T12:16:00+08:00","duration":13544,"影片長度":"03:45:44","委員發言時間":"08:30:16 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﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2037.861,"end":2039.162,"text":"二、審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院"},{"start":2054.795,"end":2056.877,"text":"議員：一、審查司法院函請審理法部分條文修正草案：一、審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":2077.978,"end":2107.978,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2108.678,"end":2114.319,"text":"以及自己撤銷或變更還款處分來徹底解決紛爭不用像以往一樣要來來回回另外一個是要增強行政法院的審理效能我們也設置了稅務審查官因為既然要推進課稅行政法院的專業能力應該要有專業的輔助提升所以我們設置了稅務審查官參加其他國家的制度"},{"start":2136.005,"end":2155.426,"text":"另外他可以在訴訟中基於他的專業知識對於當事人證人跟鑑定人去做說明跟發問。其實我們優化了這個暫時權力保護的這個制度特別規定了這個擔保制度一個擔保制度那麼可以平衡的保護我們的租稅的保全以及人民就業的這個實效性。"},{"start":2156.54,"end":2178.365,"text":"其實為了要促進訴訟我們也規定了在稅務行政訴訟中當事人的協力義務由當事人跟法院共同來釐清楚事實的這些責任包括說當事人要協助提出資料以及沒有進行協力義務的時候相關的這些法律效果我們都有做相關的規範其次是為了要強化稅務行政訴訟的專業性"},{"start":2185.726,"end":2210.092,"text":"擴大了強制律師代理這個範圍那麼對於一審的這個稅務行政訴訟規定當事人必須要委任律師來做訴訟代理人那麼這個是關於稅審法的部分那麼行政法院組織法的部分也配合了這個審理法那麼我們去申請了這個稅務審查官包含他的任用資格、禁用規定、官職等跟職權那麼以及因應的高等行政法院跟最高行政法院這個相對的這個原額的調整另外"},{"start":2213.373,"end":2233.539,"text":"我們也參照了法案組織法這一次的修正把法官助理的這個禁用讓它更多元化所以除了原來的的聘用的話我們也增加這個願用那麼增加人員運用這個彈性這個以上是簡單報告關於這個稅務事件審理稅務行政事件審理法及行政法院組織法這份草案那請委員指導以上報告好謝謝黃副秘書長接下來請財政部政務次長李慶華次長報告"},{"start":2245.632,"end":2263.758,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進、大家好。今天會委員會來審查司法院所擬據的稅務行政事件審理法的草案以及行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案。那我們就本部涉及的業務部分來簡要說明進行指教首先是針對這個稅務行政事件審理法的草案部分"},{"start":2264.598,"end":2270.062,"text":"這個草案本身第12條到第15條它規定加強當事人的協力義務以及第25條規定設置稅務審查官第26條、28條、29條規定了行政法院應該依職權來調查課稅的事實推計稅額並自為決定因那的稅額及罰款等部分都有助於釐清課稅的真實避免案件來回於行政機關與法院"},{"start":2291.135,"end":2294.558,"text":"發揮行政訴訟終局解決紛爭的功能,本部競表贊同。對於草案第19條到24條及第31條規定,也是60納稅者權力保護法第21條規定總額主義訴訟上配套的措施部分,也有助於徵納雙方就同一個課稅事件的爭議在一次行政訴訟程序徹底解決,降低訴訟成本及程序的勞費。"},{"start":2318.237,"end":2323.859,"text":"那草案第20條就行政訴訟系署中另發現應課徵稅捐,要求稅捐監事官應與原徵送課稅處分,合併作成新處分,並就該另發現應課徵的稅捐,無論那稅務人有無爭執,無需申請複查以及提起訴願。"},{"start":2338.303,"end":2341.987,"text":"直接進入這個行政訴訟成為程序的標的這部分我們是有點疑慮覺得是不是會影響納稅務人的審極利益那我們建議應該要並於審酌不過我們本部也是尊重貴委員會審查的結果"},{"start":2353.36,"end":2366.045,"text":"第二個部分,針對行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案的部分對於第五條,草案第五條,二十條之一,二十條之二,二十條之三的規定,曾並聘用承認或者是借調現任內地稅積增機關的人員來擔任這個稅務審查官的部分"},{"start":2370.166,"end":2388.774,"text":"那我們也考量有助於行政法院審查這個帳部憑證、會計記錄以及財務報表等等資料來釐清稅務或者是會計的事實或者就課稅的基礎數額作為推計增強行政法院審理的效能這個部分本部也競表贊同那以上說明祭旗各位委員會議指教謝謝好謝謝李次長現在詢問關於上次會議議事錄詢問有意義"},{"start":2398.8,"end":2409.486,"text":"好沒有的話我們上回議事錄就確認好那麼其餘提出書面報告之列其機關如口頭補充報告其書面內容列入公報記錄"},{"start":2411.451,"end":2425.597,"text":"那麼機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容均列入公報記錄現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘標識得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位黃委員國昌發言"},{"start":2451.349,"end":2466.874,"text":"憲律師麻煩有請司法院的副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。然後權敍部的代表。權敍部代表。委員好。OK那個廖專門委員。"},{"start":2480.035,"end":2499.697,"text":"副院長,今天審查這個有關於稅務行政案件的審理法的草案,那個會牽涉到有關納稅者權益的保護。我相信司法院非常的清楚,行政法院在處理稅務案件的時候,人民的勝訴率是非常非常低。"},{"start":2500.778,"end":2525.467,"text":"2017一七年我們在財政委員會的時候制定納稅者權利保護法那上路了以後一路觀察看起來的表現看起來的表現似乎是跟我們當初期待的差距還蠻遠的原因可能非常的多啦我們等一下再細細的討論因為如果當人民就稅務案件提起行政訴訟勝訴率這麼低的時候"},{"start":2529.108,"end":2550.27,"text":"到底行政訴訟是不是有辦法發揮公平救濟這樣子的一個目的會騷擾很多人的質疑今天這個法案看起來是蠻重要的我看你們之前也花了錢請了學者做了一個研究計畫這個研究計畫不是通常都要上網嗎?你為什麼沒公開?"},{"start":2552.689,"end":2568.757,"text":"委員報告應該會有上網,那我們回去去...你們去確認一下好不好,因為我只要上網查得到的東西我基本上都不會特別請你們提供但我就是上網查不到嘛,因為所有政府機關委託學者做的研究報告"},{"start":2570.103,"end":2585.263,"text":"那所有人花的錢這個東西就要公開嘛那這個東西公開很重要啊因為你如果認真要處理稅務行政訴訟事件審理法的話那你就要看一路以來這個法條到底是怎麼演變的嘛"},{"start":2586.284,"end":2611.942,"text":"比如說教授當初怎麼建議的司法院是怎麼審議的最後送到立法院的條文長什麼樣子在什麼階段基於什麼樣子的理由做了變更這些紀錄都很重要嗎副秘書長贊不贊成這個我完全贊成那我們回去了解因為我們好你完全贊成那我們再繼續看你們針對這個審理法的草案開了幾次公聽會"},{"start":2614.437,"end":2640.988,"text":"只有辦一次嘛8月12號的時候才辦嘛8月12號的時候除了財政部啊就負責在剋稅的代表國家高權行為啊在剋稅的公務員以外民間的人是請了幾位我上面秀給你看了啦請了五位啦"},{"start":2643.267,"end":2656.235,"text":"議會七幾個人政府機關代表68個人全部都是在代表國家行使高權行為的民間代表只有五位突然排審了這個案子以後我接到很多陳情覺得司法院怎麼辦一個工地會辦都偷偷摸摸的"},{"start":2664.738,"end":2690.834,"text":"然後民間的代表只有五位有很多人啊對我們剋稅的這件事情以及行政訴訟的這件事情啊非常的關心而且強烈的不滿強烈的不滿認為我們的司法院啊開一個公聽會是在走過水的哦民間人士只請來五個大家連參與的機會都沒有甚至啊來看一下看一下"},{"start":2692.285,"end":2711.96,"text":"連政府機關的代表啊都覺得這個公聽會召開的時間非常的緊迫啊來看一下我們財政部負稅組的代表啊主席不好意思啊今天的公聽會召集的比較急迫啊這不是我說的啊連政府機關的代表都這樣講啊這個公聽會組織稿可不可以上網這組織稿還是我去跟你們要的欸能不能上網"},{"start":2721.619,"end":2738.248,"text":"這不是公聽會嗎?還是私聽會?回去會員因為我們公聽會有蠻多的會員是不是都組織搞上網因為有一些他們與會的他們並不希望被陳述的意見那這不叫公聽會嗎?公聽會都不公開還叫公聽會喔?回去檢討這個會有困難嗎?因為有一些司法院要搞黑箱嗎?當然不是有不可以公開上網的理由嗎?"},{"start":2751.533,"end":2755.862,"text":"再往下看為了這個審理事件成立一個委員會"},{"start":2758.223,"end":2783.967,"text":"我找了半天我找不到你們研修會討論的記錄我發函給你們要結果司法院回給我的文字是這個樣子來我唸給副秘書長聽關於此部分的資料本院向來不提供因為會議討論過程結論是本院研修參考涉及決策過程的內部意見溝通或思辨資訊所以不便提供這個是理由嗎"},{"start":2789.573,"end":2797.918,"text":"因為我們的研修的這個紀錄以往的慣例是這樣你確定嗎?司法院以前我們在做民事訴訟法研修的時候啊民事訴訟法研修會的紀錄出了幾本啊"},{"start":2810.984,"end":2819.891,"text":"主秘書長你知不知道?那為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開這個不行?沒有啦 這不是上網公開我已經發函給你們要了你們不給我欸這個研修委員會在討論法條是有什麼國家機密嗎?為什麼不能提供?"},{"start":2839.301,"end":2841.463,"text":"我們也都提供了什麼時候提供的這個研修會的紀錄有給我不是你怎麼講話在立法院裡面反反覆覆的所以我就問你嘛為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開"},{"start":2861.937,"end":2867.001,"text":"我問一個最根本價值的問題嘛不管是事後會診成策事後為什麼要會診成策就讓所有關心這個法律的人知道這個法條形成的過程是什麼嘛這件事情有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":2890.936,"end":2893.459,"text":"回去會去檢討研議請你們公開好不好立法院裡面所有的公聽會委員會的審查院會全部都公開啊怎麼司法院自己在搞黑箱這樣對嗎委員報告應該也不至於因為後來會長成長不至於很簡單啊就把東西所有公開我為什麼會問這件事情"},{"start":2914.909,"end":2943.764,"text":"一個法案怎麼形成的特別是司法院提出來的我一定會去拜讀我特別發言去跟你們要的這個研究計畫我不是要來玩的是要來看的我要看老師們當初提什麼條文跟你們提出來的條文對照我為什麼會要研討會的紀錄因為中間有很大的落差那這個落差是怎麼發生的理由是什麼"},{"start":2944.881,"end":2957.705,"text":"完全找不到啊來我進一步請教你你們今天所提出來的這個稅務行政案件審理法除了租稅債務以外有沒有包括租稅處罰案件審理範圍啦有嘛那如果有包括租稅處罰的話當事人的協力義務在租稅處罰的要件證明有協力義務嗎"},{"start":2971.99,"end":2996.236,"text":"我們的那個協力義務包括當事人然後沒有特別去區分那個處罰跟那個所以答案是有沒有包括租稅處罰包括也許是特別強調稅審法跟民事訴訟法跟行政訴訟法不一樣的地方你如果齁因為我看這個法條當事人的協力義務包括在租稅債務我沒意見啦包括在租稅處罰"},{"start":2998.144,"end":3021.09,"text":"這可能就必須要深入討論但你們在法條完全沒區分我為什麼說在租稅處罰需要深入討論來 我們來看一下這個是最高行政法院的見解針對租稅債務跟租稅處罰兩者之間本質上面的不同最高行政法院在歷來的判決裡面寫的蠻清楚的 來看一下"},{"start":3023.24,"end":3051.883,"text":"最高行政法院的判決認為財閥相對人對於租稅處罰這件事情沒有鮮豔的協力義務這個立場司法院是不是要透過這一次審理法的修正予以辯更因為處罰那一部分並沒有確如委員所講並沒有做特別的區分所以你們是不是要藉由這一次修法去辯更最高行政法院的見解立法理由是沒有特別去講說不是啊"},{"start":3053.103,"end":3079.45,"text":"那你們提這個法案明定了當事人的協力義務而且穿透力很強喔那個穿透力啊到了無罪推定原則在稅法的領域裡面通常叫做移責無罪的原則都排除掉了欸都排除掉了欸那這租稅處罰到底有沒有適用我為什麼做這個完整的對照表給司法院看"},{"start":3080.475,"end":3090.44,"text":"因為我就很狐疑啊你們今天提這個審理法是要排除要變更最高行政法院判決的見解嗎?租稅處罰沒有協力義務變成有協力義務租稅處罰本來有無罪推定原則的適用你們這個法下去就變成沒有無罪推定原則的適用"},{"start":3105.148,"end":3120.793,"text":"你們真的有這個修法的意圖嗎?沒有準用啦我拜託法律人在上面講話不要胡說啦哪一條寫準用適用就適用嘛還準用"},{"start":3132.5,"end":3151.867,"text":"我跟委員抱歉不是啊我現在跟司法院講喔這件事情啊知識體大知識體大在租稅處罰的部分是不是要藉由這個法律的修正變跟向來最高行政法院的見解這個對於納稅權利人啊納稅義務人啊影響非常的深遠影響非常的深遠因為就你們"},{"start":3159.912,"end":3176.589,"text":"本來在上面的第14條啊第14條的這個條文其實我從當初的研究計畫裡面我沒有看到這個條文啊那顯然是在後面你們司法院研修的過程當中把條文加上去嘛"},{"start":3177.441,"end":3204.789,"text":"要不然送來立法院的版本不會蹦出來這個條文嗎那我就很好奇啊當初你們花錢請聖子榮教授做研究計畫沒有這個條文現在送到立法院裡面來的有這個條文這個條文從何而來基於什麼樣的立法考慮有沒有參酌最高行政法院判決的意旨最後把這個條文送到立法院來了"},{"start":3207.444,"end":3232.839,"text":"這些立法的資料我現在完全找不到請你們會後提供最後我要講一個很關鍵的問題什麼關鍵的問題你們要涉稅務審查官結果稅務審查官從稅政機關找人這個事情我可以直接跟你講民間團體有很大的疑慮但更重要的重點還不是這個"},{"start":3234.848,"end":3246.568,"text":"你們這個稅務審查官是有關等的吧?見認7等到9等嗎?有關等的 有關等的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎?來請一下選區部的"},{"start":3248.775,"end":3268.888,"text":"有關的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎?請簡單回答依照聘用條例第7條的規定有關於聘用人員他是不得充任就是列有職稱檢認兼任職稱的職務也不得兼任列有職等的職務來再請司法院的權序部的說不可以啊你們今天提來的草案這樣搞"},{"start":3271.42,"end":3276.884,"text":"是要創設黑官嗎?對啊但是聘用人員條例可以這樣繞過去喔?是要搞黑官嗎?全區部都反對了,現在司法院立場如何?"},{"start":3291.124,"end":3312.34,"text":"我們當然是希望說我們會跟全序部溝通看看不是嘛以後所有的公務機關是只有司法院可以我用偏用人員條例搞有官等的人是只有司法院可以還是全中華民國各個行政機關大家都公平都可以這樣搞來許全序部表示意見對這個條文贊成還是反對"},{"start":3316.038,"end":3339.437,"text":"基本上就是聘用條例裡面的規定,如果你符合聘用條例裡面的規定,你就可以用聘用條例去禁用人員。是,這個我了解,這不是我的問題。基本上就是說,如果有需要他要去聘用這樣子類似紀審官的,這樣職稱的人,原則上不宜用紀審官,因為他是列有職稱官等之等的部分。列有官等就不能這樣搞嘛。"},{"start":3340.097,"end":3343.981,"text":"你書面就寫得這麼清楚了嘛上來講得含含糊糊的怕得罪司法院喔司法院喔再回去想一下全中華民國是只有你們司法院有特權還是各個行政機關都可以這樣幹"},{"start":3358.826,"end":3376.716,"text":"謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝黃副秘書長在這裡呢針對剛剛的詢談內容主席這邊先做個宣告因為關於到公聽會的部分那的確我們各方的意見需要更進一步的參酌那請司法院思考一下那在這裡呢也提醒我們委員會的委員"},{"start":3378.379,"end":3386.271,"text":"那因為根據憲法第57條啊行政院依左列規定對立法院負責包括行政院長跟各"},{"start":3387.791,"end":3411.564,"text":"行政院各部會的首長我們是質詢另外根據我們憲法第71條立法院開會時關西院院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見所以待會我們行政院的部分我們是屬於質詢至於司法院的部分是陳述意見在這裡一併續名接下來有請羅委員志強發言羅委員志強發言"},{"start":3419.198,"end":3423.1,"text":"委員請尊重主席的職權我尊重你的八年內你主席少來這一套"},{"start":3441.789,"end":3455.056,"text":"我幫你翻白話啦今天司法院退席都沒關係啊不用你立法院啦我幫你翻白話啦我幫你翻白話欸給我我還沒開始時間已經開始啊給我計時啊對啊我還沒講完會議詢問對不對主席啊你官位是不是很大你官位有沒有很大黃國昌講完話給他回馬槍補他一槍"},{"start":3471.752,"end":3498.03,"text":"好啦隨便啦問你也沒有用啦我知道你是新宿派大弟子啦我請司法院副秘書長請黃副秘書長委員好剛剛主席講啦我們只能質詢行政院啦我不知道副秘書長你來這裡幹什麼當然委員有隨興我們都會盡量回答嘛那他說你不需要啊"},{"start":3499.13,"end":3518.442,"text":"主席都說你不需要我不知道你為什麼要在這邊我說真的對嘛今天立法院審議法案跟審查預算本來就對各院各部會有所謂質詢之權啊我們親愛的我們親愛的鍾佳冰主席又變大法官了"},{"start":3521.125,"end":3531.77,"text":"華國昌在那邊質詢還以為現欸好厲害喔嚇死我了了不起啊超級無敵強的主席啊你不要當立法委員去當大法官快一點啦第二個我想要請教一下我們的副秘書長剛剛聽到華國昌委員齁質詢啦"},{"start":3541.144,"end":3557.966,"text":"不管是說聘用條例包括說無罪推定包括說今天到底有沒有公開的讓大家公眾周知的公聽會看起來今天我們的司法院準備抱歉我覺得是不夠的喔不足的喔"},{"start":3559.257,"end":3582.538,"text":"我們是召集的研修委員會由最高行政法院院長然後各方的這個意見都有參佐啦所以我看剛剛黃國昌問你一堆問題沒辦法但是沒關係我問你一個問題喔剛剛黃委員號他有說啦他是說像司法院號來去要有關於委員會審議的討論記錄嘛結果你就說不提供嘛"},{"start":3584.65,"end":3593.238,"text":"我跟你講這是我站在你這邊你知道為什麼嗎黃國昌算什麼請問你不要講你啦任何行政機關立法院跟他要資料不提供請問你的法律效力是什麼法律效果是什麼按照這次大法官會議解釋"},{"start":3609.656,"end":3633.954,"text":"有要負什麼責任?大法官會議解釋出來了有沒有要負什麼責任?大法官會議是說因為這個是一個政治上面的這個責任我幫你翻白話你講的太好了就是沒有責任啦所以換言之你不提供資料給黃國昌算什麼?反正黃國昌也拿你沒責啊"},{"start":3635.612,"end":3650.159,"text":"就像我跟經濟部要資料 對不對我要會議資料他給三份少一份他也沒事啊他最關鍵長期還不給我請問我能拿他怎麼辦來我請教一下副秘書長"},{"start":3652.932,"end":3680.575,"text":"跟委員報告齁因為這次大法官的解釋說因為這個五院之間是共同對人民負責啦所以說將來他都要去面對人民我告訴你啊副委員長我也不再為難你啦這大法官就是憲政的毒瘤啦這樣白了今天你也不過就示範大法官的憲法判決告訴大家我不提供資料其實也沒關係"},{"start":3682.366,"end":3710.783,"text":"你真的沒關係啊我也搞不懂今天有關於我們今天審查的法案的公聽會跟委員會討論的資料到底是哪一門的秘密要保密不能給我也搞不懂啊今天納稅人給司法院來去研議法案來去找學者來寫報告來開委員會來去做所謂的相關的研修討論這些本來就是可以公開的意見啊"},{"start":3712.062,"end":3723.755,"text":"我們立法院今天本於要幫人民看守荷包的這個職責所以才來去向您來要資料想辦法去精進這樣的一個所謂的修法的過程啊結果你資料不給我們"},{"start":3725.222,"end":3750.727,"text":"然後現在你告訴我們我們怎麼去幫人民來去做監督來去幫人民去看守荷包來去幫人民去審定更精緻的法案呢所以今天在這裡我也跟副秘書長講我不認為是你的問題啦抱歉啦就像主席都可以上來跟你講啦說你沒有關係因為基本上不要講行政主席也客氣了啦什麼行政院我們對他可以質詢對你們不能質詢連行政院質詢都不行啦"},{"start":3755.945,"end":3770.708,"text":"反正質詢你今天照我們現在大法官會議解釋出來官員說謊也沒事啊請問官員在立法院說謊依照大法官目前的解釋要負什麼責任政治責任我幫你講完啦 對不對還有什麼別的責任嗎我問你有什麼責任嘛請教就教你嘛你也只能尊重我的意見啦我就幫你回答啦沒有責任嘛"},{"start":3784.707,"end":3800.631,"text":"就是大法官赤裸裸示範跟大家講說從小教你不要說謊這是一個天大的罪惡啊我們小時候教育是錯的官員今天在立法院不說謊是錯的官員在立法院說謊是天經地義的今天就赤裸裸示範這件事情啊我想請財政部謝謝副秘書長來請財政部理事長請"},{"start":3817.842,"end":3837.807,"text":"市長昨天有網友爆料說財政部推廣民眾使用的雲端發票的抽獎活動雲端種樹去一起集點樹那似乎三期活動有四位民眾重複種獎很多人質疑不公那昨天晚上我看"},{"start":3839.253,"end":3865.748,"text":"財政部發新聞稿說抽獎都在律師的見證下進行公平公正公開至於有沒有不公的行為還在查證中我想請問財政部現在查的怎麼樣報告委員目前我還在查證中還在查證效率可以快一點我們會積極請那個主辦單位趕快辦理而且我們會將查證的結果對外來公佈我現在就直接問一件事財政部應該馬上可以回答了"},{"start":3866.431,"end":3880.16,"text":"有網友爆料其中一位重複中獎的人是財政部的員工如果不是請現在好好的澄清不要傷害財政部的信譽有沒有財政部員工在裡面這部分我不清楚"},{"start":3881.762,"end":3907.062,"text":"財政部的員工你們稍微核對一下裡面的人但是我跟委員報告我們財政部的員工也是可以參加這個抽獎活動當然我不是我沒有質疑財政部員工不可以參加這個抽獎我問你是一個事實問題啊你不要跟我講昨天到現在已經一天了你連中獎的人是不是財政部員工都答不出來報告委員我真的不知道你真的不知道我真的不知道那我們還相信你的查證的能力啊連你的員工"},{"start":3908.523,"end":3925.511,"text":"議員們的名單都有,財政部的員工名單也有。議員們的名單都有,財政部的員工名單也有。議員們的名單都有,財政部的員工名單也有。議員們的名單都有,財政部的員工名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。議員們的名單也有。"},{"start":3933.274,"end":3949.305,"text":"我等一下就請我們同仁轉資我們主辦單位馬上查證等一下給委員會我再請教齁你們新文稿我想齁第一期結束可以參加第二期第三期嘛只要繼續參加就有機會再中嘛對不對是不是是那請問這三期有多少人中獎嗯那個"},{"start":3952.301,"end":3977.031,"text":"我幫你講,如果我有講錯你幫我更正網站上來看三期中獎人數將近1700人其中1680人是抽到50元到100元的禮券只有19個人抽到特殊大獎包括iPhone、手機、吉安特、腳踏車可是這19個人裡面竟然有4個人可以連續兩次抽到大獎我想請問這個機率有多高"},{"start":3982.496,"end":4008.51,"text":"嗯,這個當然如果用一般抽獎的機率,機率其實到底是多少我不確定,但是應該是沒有那麼高的機率啊,所以我們也...好,我告訴你,你要看母數啦,對不對?因為抽獎、中獎那個連續中獎的人數四個人齁,這已經是一個所謂的數字喔,但是要看母數齁,那我想請教你,查了一天齁,第一期、第二期、第三期分別抽獎的人數是多少?應該有了吧?可以給我一下嗎?"},{"start":4011.477,"end":4018.108,"text":"議員可不可以讓我...你們昨天新聞稿有啦,報名註冊9萬多人啦,符合抽獎資格在12萬到13.6萬人嘛,這數字有錯嗎?第一期...對不起"},{"start":4027.084,"end":4031.707,"text":"請問四個人中獎兩次的機率有多少?我不知道,可能要算一下我告訴你啊,我來念給你聽好了那機率低到什麼程度啊?"},{"start":4055.922,"end":4074.192,"text":"我後來有找這個用CHAT GPT來演算那AI跟我講一個數字我也有請那個統計學的教授幫我問了一下他只是跟我講說這個已經小到基本上很難比尼出來然後我跟你講我看到CHAT GPT給我的答案你聽聽看是多少他告訴我答案將近十萬億分之一我想請教你"},{"start":4086.154,"end":4114.088,"text":"這個幾乎在生活上統計上不可能發生的事情只剩下為什麼人民會懷疑原因是什麼原因為什麼會懷疑因為在自然上基本上是不會發生的那只剩下一個可能性了嘛什麼可能性就是舞弊啊人民為什麼會覺得但機率上幾乎不可能發生所以人民會懷疑是舞弊那我要跟市長講這件事有多嚴重你知道吧"},{"start":4115.25,"end":4140.025,"text":"你知道這件事嚴重在哪裡嗎?請委員指示這件事在攸關財政部將來辦的任何活動的公信力啊是了解所以如果說今天這件幾乎在機率上不會發生的事情發生了不是舞弊就算了那你要交代清楚為什麼機率上不會發生的事情竟然發生而且不是舞弊查清楚"},{"start":4140.831,"end":4153.948,"text":"會,這個部分我們已經會盡量趕快...其實我們成本...但如果是舞弊,我跟次長講,財政部這件事情受創是非常嚴重的。這個事情不可以輕易看待。謝謝您。謝謝委員指導,謝謝。好,謝謝羅委員,謝謝李次長。"},{"start":4159.71,"end":4174.634,"text":"先作宣告今天由委員提出臨時提案稍後預計在上午11點處理如屆時委員正在質詢則於該位委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案接下來有請省委員發會發言"},{"start":4190.331,"end":4211.525,"text":"主席我們請副秘書長有請黃副秘書長我很好副秘書長早今天我們這個主席排定來審查這個稅務行政事件審理法草案跟這個行政院組織法部分條文修正草案這個"},{"start":4213.962,"end":4242.8,"text":"在剛才幾位委員的詢答裡面大概有提了幾個可能值得大家討論的地方但是我想今天是會排這樣子的法案有關這個我們目前這個稅務行政事件的這個審理這部分我們會做這樣子的修改跟這樣子的改革其實最主要"},{"start":4244.161,"end":4254.988,"text":"我所知道的啦,個人所知道在當初這個107年5月的這個司改國事會議裡面,事實上這是司改國事會議裡面的一個重要的結論,對不對?是,好好問一下。那這個從107年到現在也經過這麼多年的"},{"start":4265.165,"end":4292.912,"text":"我們的司法院的研議那有今天終於我們在主席的排定之下是不是有機會在今天能夠審查就我們目前的這個稅務事件的這個稅務行政事件的這些相關的這樣子的法案的修改是不是能夠在今天來完成當然剛才委員所質疑的幾個部分我也是希望說能夠在今天的審查當中來釐清"},{"start":4295.342,"end":4316.732,"text":"至於說程序上面的問題,說你們為了這個修法裡面你們所召開的這個研修會,這個究竟是不是公聽會的性質,這個秘書長是不是要解釋一下你們,副秘書長解釋一下你們一般你們這樣的法案的修改,你們所召開的這樣子的研修會跟所謂公聽會的性質是一樣的嗎?"},{"start":4320.735,"end":4343.341,"text":"委員報告研修會跟公聽會的性質並不一樣研修會大概都是專家學者那麼在比較屬於內部的一個司法院的這個會議那研修會通常會持續帶狀的開開像我們研修會這個法案的研修會就開了將近兩年那可能是一二十次的會那麼"},{"start":4344.241,"end":4364.649,"text":"比較成熟之後要送到大院的時候我們會正式的法案召開公聽會那這個法案有沒有召開過公聽會有召開過一次公聽會但是研修會開了兩年對我知道研修會開了兩年那你們現在你剛才副院長意思大概就是說公聽會的部分這個內容當然他是所謂公聽那當然這個內容是公開"},{"start":4369.131,"end":4397.79,"text":"公開讓社會大家來看這才是公聽會的意義但是研修會不一樣研修會不一樣研修會這個內部的研討的意見大家可能會針對各種不同的狀況在各個每一個職務不同的立場大家會提也許甚至研修的結果是沒有結果只是提出問題也都有可能所以研修會你們的處理方式是研修會你們沒有公開但是公聽會一定要公開對不對"},{"start":4399.091,"end":4415.217,"text":"其實說實在啦你們這樣已經不錯了啦你們有召開過一次啦雖然說有他們質疑說這個民間參與的人數太少但是你看他們憲法訴訟法要修改憲法訴訟法召開公聽會嗎有召開一次嗎在這邊講得這麼大聲沒有召開公聽會自己要去修憲法訴訟法一次公聽會我們要求開一次公聽會他們都不要"},{"start":4427.27,"end":4429.035,"text":"這程序的問題啦齁那但是實際上實質上面齁剛才大概"},{"start":4434.454,"end":4456.716,"text":"有兩個問題我認為比較關鍵一個就是這一次的整個修法你有關負稅處罰的部分是不是當事人的協力義務按照你們的法案是包括在負稅處分跟負稅債務這負稅處分都包括在當事人的協力義務裡面這個部分我覺得是值得探討另外一個就是說"},{"start":4457.932,"end":4472.262,"text":"有關這個你們要新設置這個稅務審查官到底能不能用這個聘用條例來試用這個部分可能包括你們在跟考試院之間的這個"},{"start":4474.844,"end":4475.405,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案案"},{"start":4500.546,"end":4515.638,"text":"現行的那個技術審查官智慧財產法院的技術審查官他們也是除了借調以外也是用聘用條例來聘用嗎?有嗎?用借調是借調而已啦那借調的部分是?"},{"start":4517.602,"end":4539.258,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4539.418,"end":4564.684,"text":"如果說進入主條的時候我們可以來討論。在整體而言,這有些爭議,在整體而言我還是要請這個今天排的這樣法案我還是要請副秘書長講一下我們這個為什麼我們不是假把行為我們去修改這個稅務行政的這些這個行政事件的處理法案。那事實上這個修法本身是一個進步,它還是司法改國是會議本身的一個結論。"},{"start":4566.124,"end":4590.963,"text":"那尤其是這個我們要落實這個總和主義的這個部分我想在這次的這個整個修法裡面我相信是有利於未來不管是這個政府機關在激增或者是這個人民有關這個納稅債務的相關的這些行政訴訟我相信是有很大的幫助啦這部分是不是能請秘書長你稍微闡釋一下"},{"start":4592.011,"end":4612.386,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁那這次主要當然是銜接那個納稅者權益保護法實施之後那麼引進總和主義那把紛爭一次解決那大部分的爭議希望在行政法院的部分就能夠確定不要像以往以往會行政法院就撤銷違法的這個這個訴訟員過去是撤銷然後再再再請稅務機關你重新重做處分來來回我像乒乓球一樣對他就就造成萬年稅單的問題對對對那就是一個一個一個一個稅務爭議他可能要拖拖了好幾年"},{"start":4621.673,"end":4622.934,"text":"議員．一、審查司法院函請審理法部分條文修正草案案案"},{"start":4648.504,"end":4662.583,"text":"那這個撤銷之後你們也沒有自為判決也沒有判決說那你到底應該是繳多少沒有啦你們就是把那個這個訴願處分把它撤銷掉之後請稅務機關你重新重新核科"},{"start":4666.152,"end":4693.16,"text":"對對對對對來來回回啦齁那所以這也是那時候市改國是會議為什麼認為說我們的這些稅務事件的審理齁這必須要改革啦齁那改革這一次我看你們大致上把這些這個總和主義齁這把把這個所謂總和主義把他明文化了齁把他明文化了把他放到這個包括第8條第19條齁我看都是的修改都是這個這個總和主義的的一個一個落實啦齁一個落實落實明文化"},{"start":4693.76,"end":4721.01,"text":"那這個改變之後他對人民的權益有什麼樣的改變我想人民不用像以前這樣子打一個行政訴訟打一個稅務行政訴訟那要緊著救濟要這樣子來來回回法院打官司行政訴訟贏了結果他只是撤銷那個複查權益回去行政主任原主任搞不好還是一樣再讓他合格那他還要再奮武一次對但是所以這個就就我們要落實這種主義的最後你如果說要"},{"start":4722.028,"end":4736.803,"text":"要不是只是單純的撤銷這個處分你要在這裡自為判決你就必須要有專業的協助你要專業一定要專業協助你法官你怎麼去算算你到最後你到底這個負稅債務是多少"},{"start":4739.505,"end":4762.47,"text":"所以你們才會因為基於這個原因所以你們要提出要設置這個稅務審查官所以是基於這樣子的這是一整套的啦也就是說我們今天如果說我們今天能夠順利大家在立法過程中把這些剛剛所提的幾個爭點大家把它稍微釐清甚至做一些文字的修正"},{"start":4763.19,"end":4791.951,"text":"這個部分我請因為我們到等一下的組條討論可能還會有一些時間請你們就剛才所講的兩個爭議的部分你們能夠事前你們稍微研究一下是不是假設例如說你們剛講的說目前智慧財產的這個事務官目前大致上是用借調的那你們是不是在這個聘用的部分你們就在文字上面雖然說過去的法令是這樣寫但是你們未來至少我了解你們未來初期的目標是用借調的"},{"start":4793.112,"end":4808.644,"text":"還是用戒掉了。聘用的是一個是一個說未來如果說在業務再擴大你們才才會才才才會使用了那這部分是不是能夠做一些做一些修訂了齁那這個我想齁這還是最後這個"},{"start":4810.693,"end":4834.619,"text":"除了我們今天要做的這個稅務事件的審理的部分我另外比較關心的還有一個問題就是我們有關這個現在的這些新興的這些虛擬資產相關的新興犯罪案的審理這個部分其實也相當專業有關這個虛擬資產新興犯罪的部分甚至原本我們現在目前我知道是"},{"start":4835.697,"end":4854.691,"text":"一些地方法院都有設置專庭或者是專股在處理商業金融金融專股有金融專股但金融專股裡面的有關虛擬資產的這些相關信心犯罪這個恐怕也不是現在的商業專股他們能夠負擔了目前當然有關虛擬資產"},{"start":4860.609,"end":4889.388,"text":"我看你們現在目前這個這個商業專股你們按照按照這個這個設立這些專庭齁你們是按照這個各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法在辦的嘛齁阿裡面的規定你們其實是依據什麼樣的案子進入這狀況其實是依據法律法令齁你們按照這個付表我看到這個付表是金融專專業案件齁裡面有違反銀行法信用合作設法這個你們是以這個違反的法令作為依據啦但現在目前虛擬資產沒有專法"},{"start":4891.45,"end":4901.156,"text":"目前虛擬資產沒有專法,所以按照這個辦法他現在是沒有辦法進入這個金融專股。即使進入金融專股,這個虛擬資產的新興犯罪,他跟傳統的這些金融商業的這些專業知識他也..."},{"start":4910.026,"end":4929.599,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4930.902,"end":4946.926,"text":"謝謝委員當然跟委員報告其實虛擬資產雖然沒有專庭專股但是我們的法官學院已經安排了很多的關於這個虛擬資產的研習課程那麼讓法官們在審理這案件的時候有這方面的專業知識跟我們報告謝謝陳委員謝謝黃副秘書長"},{"start":4962.145,"end":4991.174,"text":"好,接下來我們請登記第四位中嘉賓委員上台質詢。主席、站長委員先進。列席的政府指揮官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。首先要先邀請財政部理次長。那第二段的部分呢要請司法院的黃副秘書長以及人事行政總署的蔡專委和主計總署的劉副處長。首先先請理次長。"},{"start":4993.458,"end":5006.966,"text":"委員早安早安今天的第一部案先請教最近就是前兩天發生一個大事情就是報宅6歲女童繼承了1500萬的遺產卻要被課5000萬的遺產稅請問次長知道這個新聞事件嗎"},{"start":5014.349,"end":5038.105,"text":"知道它的來源就是在10月28日司法院記者會對於現判113現判11號的判決做出了一個說明這當中我們看一下這個圖這個圖說什麼呢?說這個有一個先生他生前把股票贈予給他的配偶但是他在不到兩年內就過世了"},{"start":5038.871,"end":5066.863,"text":"那另外呢他的配偶跟他的另外的婚生子女呢通通都拋棄了繼承那以至於說呢後來查出他有一個女童是他外面的私生女所以他變成唯一的繼承人那因為他沒有拋棄繼承所以合計啊三億兩千萬的遺產因為他贈予的股票在生前兩年內贈予的都算入遺產那因此呢他合科五千萬的遺產稅請問次長對於這事情有什麼看法這樣合理嗎"},{"start":5068.356,"end":5094.305,"text":"這只能講說這是依照我們現行遺產稅證與稅依證稅法上面的規定目前是按照現行的法律在執行的是的那你覺得現行的法律我們看到他實際他留下的遺產扣掉股票實際留下的遺產可被繼承的只有1500萬但是這個唯一的繼承人沒有拋棄的六歲女童他繼承的1500萬之後要繳5000萬的遺產稅那另外呢他的夫人他的太太那個"},{"start":5095.09,"end":5096.99,"text":"議員．一、審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查"},{"start":5123.178,"end":5151.433,"text":"最後只剩下這個6歲的小孩因為你們規定嘛他生前兩年內的贈餘還是要回到遺產稅來課稅嘛好那我們看一看大法官怎麼說憲法法庭說立法的目的是為租稅公平但不能成為絞殺性的租稅什麼是絞殺性的租稅你認為大法官意思是什麼就政府不能對人民啊絞殺啊他繼承的遺產少於遠少於政府要跟他收的稅啊這是絞殺你認同憲法法庭的判決嗎"},{"start":5152.846,"end":5178.086,"text":"現在憲法法院法庭的判決我們基本上我們都尊重法院的判決要遵守啦我們都要遵守對好第二個授證配偶是繼承人那結果呢大法庭那個憲法法庭是什麼要依比例課稅也就是說如果他沒有拋棄繼承這3.2億當中他去授證也是繼承了3億的股票那這一個價值呢他要依照比例課稅你認同嗎"},{"start":5180.015,"end":5208.778,"text":"我們會以司法院的判決來做出來。好。那如果說他們拋棄繼承了,這個受證朋友不是繼承人。他拋棄繼承了,他就不用去負擔這個繼承的遺產稅了。那麼因科的遺產稅能夠轉移到對其他會拋棄繼承的繼承人去增加稅額嗎?不可以嗎?這也是司法院解釋認為是不可以的。所以呢我這裡有兩點要求。第一,我們目前的稅制當中還沒有其他由憲法法庭所形容的絞殺稅,有沒有?"},{"start":5210.031,"end":5229.291,"text":"bedingt審查實務上寄承人寄承的金額少於依法你們要跟他合克的稅額,請審查,可以嗎?好,這個我們可以來通盤盤點一下。第二跟第三就是說我們目前是採總遺產稅的稅制,但是由憲法法庭的判決,他認為這個總遺產稅我們只認定說你這些"},{"start":5232.875,"end":5253.507,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5254.058,"end":5266.377,"text":"這樣的一個判決意思好像是說好像有印含著繼承人他繼承了多少應該有一個分攤依比例分攤這些遺產稅的這樣的意味您覺得有沒有"},{"start":5267.281,"end":5287.539,"text":"大法官的解釋應該是有這樣一個意思那就是一個分遺產稅的稅制但是這個姿勢體大請你們回去研議好嗎這個部分我們會研議但是也跟委員報告因為我們民情不同那我們目前在這個民法規範的遺產繼承的制度裡面並不是必須以主為準所以我們在設計的時候才會採這個並沒有說總遺產稅制不對"},{"start":5290.501,"end":5315.222,"text":"但是現在大法官的這個判決有這樣的意涵的時候往這個方向去研議而且很重要要開公聽會好不好會我們會來思考要不要把做這樣一個這麼重大稅制的變動好你們去研議好謝謝接下來我們請副秘書長以及兩位專門委員和副處長好所以我們從這個案例我們看一下你好憲法法庭的是人民權利最後的守門人"},{"start":5315.899,"end":5337.69,"text":"在這個案件當中我們看到經過了訴願拜訴確定然後提出了違憲申請審查然後呢廢棄判決而且宣告法律違憲立即失效限期改正這就是憲法法庭對人民權利保障的最重要的貢獻但是如果沒有憲法法庭的判現判現行的稅務事件的救濟流程你要課稅處分"},{"start":5338.936,"end":5361.962,"text":"然後呢要經過復查、訴願、行政訴訟。如果行政訴訟訴願決定後呢撤銷復查然後呢原機關可以再提起就在這邊循環。那麼請問副民長這樣的一個循環不只的對人民的一個折磨是不是就是你們這次要新創我們的這個稅務事件審理法的主要宗旨?"},{"start":5373.319,"end":5389.31,"text":"所以如果沒有今天的這個修法人民只能透過憲法法庭來救濟如果有了今天的立法未來不需要走到憲法法庭人民一樣可以透過這個事件來救濟是不是這樣所以比較起原來沒有這個事件審理法我們是往前踏出了一步"},{"start":5389.85,"end":5417.092,"text":"好 那我們看一下你剛剛講到的處理萬年稅單的問題而且法院得自行推計課稅不需要再由機關核課強化了法院認定的一個義務而且機關做成新儲分不用再是輸入是不是這是你們的主要的一個目的報告是好 那我們回家看齁但是呢你們剛剛提到兩個一個重點一個是司法事務官的能量不足啊因為目前呢目前我們的司法人員不具備稅務專業背景所以沒有辦法充分來協助推計課稅是不是這樣"},{"start":5418.035,"end":5431.066,"text":"所以你們才有要戒掉嘛,是不是?要做推計科,所以這個要非常有這個稅務審查實務經驗才可以但是呢,我也剛剛呢,我也認同,雖然呢該名委員對我有個人的偏見,但是我認為就是論事的確這裡面"},{"start":5433.888,"end":5448.281,"text":"包括由原來的稅務機關你們去商界他的專業來幫你們做這樣的一個事件處理的審理難免有一些這個立場上的問題那未來你們如何去確保不會有這種求援兼裁判的情況"},{"start":5450.046,"end":5476.252,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁,類似制度在那個那個技術審查官也存在。那麼剛開始也許也有技術審查官大概已經差不多20年了。當初確實也有這樣子的﹖你說的技術審查官是智慧財產﹖後來操作這麼久齁,操作這麼久其實反而是技術審查官在在那個法院這一邊他知道是獨立審判,反而常常撤銷廢棄他們的智慧"},{"start":5479.093,"end":5500.725,"text":"稅務上的結果方向你要說明 然後我們來看一下 你們這裡提到說怎麼徵聘稅審官第25條你要借調或聆聘 在原來你們有借調嘛 對不對 那實務上有去聆聘嗎 因為借調還是公務員稅務機關是公務員 借調還是公務員 他是7到9指等的專員 介紹過來還是7到9指等的專員 是不是這樣 有沒有用過聆聘的方式"},{"start":5501.525,"end":5526.096,"text":"目前實務上有沒有發生?沒有。根委員報告,當初本來有這樣的想法,但後來確實...那沒有,那就你們這個靈病既然沒有用到,有沒有需要再放進去,你們思考一下好不好,這我們會審查。好,那我們往下看。但是呢,你要到稅務機關去借掉人才啊,你看理事長在那邊眼睛瞪得很大,你要跟我調什麼人?為什麼?我們遇到公務機關借掉啊,原機關很痛。怎麼說?假設有一群人,假設只有10個人。"},{"start":5527.156,"end":5549.441,"text":"你們要戒掉的人當然是戒掉裡面你們認為最專業的。你們越想掉,員機關越不捨得放,是不是這樣?那你怎麼說服這個人到你們這裡來?他還是同官等啊。他有沒有升遷呢?他考慮他第一年的考期員機關打啊。他未來兩年後戒掉起碼他再回去,別人可以有機會升科長。他還是當專員啊。你們用什麼方式誘因來吸引這個人讓你們戒掉?"},{"start":5550.614,"end":5567.29,"text":"包括我們以往在技術長官的時候是介紹過來我們會多給加級這個加級是合法的嗎?那個我們人總跟我們的組織處可以這樣嗎?可以嗎?所以兩位不知道今天要討論這個事情,兩位就算了"},{"start":5569.091,"end":5573.232,"text":"這是與法符合的啦,你們可以給他比較高的加級嘛,對不對?"},{"start":5573.232,"end":5595.799,"text":"有的加薪,多的加級他願意來。但是問題是,好在他啊,他的機關首長,比如說李次長,我們10個人,你多2萬塊的加級,把這個人挖過去,他本來薪水6萬。你花了2萬挖過去,他得了8萬。其他的9個人少了1個人。欸,工作更多啦,機關怎麼同意?是不是這樣?那你們對委員機關怎麼補償?下一頁。"},{"start":5599.229,"end":5599.249,"text":"怎麼補償?"},{"start":5612.657,"end":5633.741,"text":"我告訴你,其實在學術界有一個方式,大學教授借到有義務授課,產學合作工學術有回饋金。所以通常在學界借到出去之後有返校授課的義務,而且借到單位會給原單位什麼?學術回饋金。有沒有回饋機制作為誘引請員去換同意借到?你覺得應該要不要有這個制度?"},{"start":5634.48,"end":5637.722,"text":"所以另外我很快的結束還有一個第三人提供資料的協力物你們這裡還有一個很重要的精神剛剛也提到"},{"start":5658.018,"end":5683.622,"text":"就是我們的稅務的這個行政跟稅務的審查有一個一個是補稅一個是罰是處罰對不對那稅務的處罰那稅務人他變成是怎麼樣是變成是犯罪的犯罪人啊那你們要他自己提供資料給你們所以你們在條文當中有怎麼樣有要求他協力又以不自證己罪的調和你們就你們的結論是吧要他把資料拿出來證明他有罪嗎"},{"start":5685.489,"end":5700.25,"text":"跟委員報告目前條文是包括包含一般的那個合克跟那個處罰都包含在內的協議那剛才黃昌偉也有質詢我們回去我覺得這個很重要那不管最後我們討論的結果怎麼樣我覺得"},{"start":5702.557,"end":5729.039,"text":"如果大家覺得納稅義務人有協力的義務但是基於不治政局的情況之下我們很難勉強他那思考一下我們打詐條例他這裡說的他說金融機關對虛擬資產的人員防詐措施的時候免除其業務上保守秘密之義務有些財稅資料不見得是當事人納稅義務人的帳冊有些是金融機關留有的往來資料他是第三人"},{"start":5729.946,"end":5756.572,"text":"那他就可不可以要求他有這樣的提供免除他對當事人的一個保密義務你覺得這樣子是不是比較不會讓我們去不知正己罪的衝突這個方向可不可以思考一下我們回去研究因為對當事人本身跟對第三人那可能也有一些要去檢討因為第三人來講通常其實他沒有自己有罪除非他是為被告所以他是共同被告所以他是共同協助洗錢"},{"start":5757.552,"end":5786.616,"text":"所以今天我覺得今天的討論包括從前面幾位委員不管他們的質疑態度如何我們就事論事我們這個新創法很重要但是要很慎重所以本席這邊也提出了一些補充的內容希望未來在我們委員會我會進一步的希望能夠更聽取更多的社會意見來做更審密的一個完備它的法制的立法您同意嗎所以你們沒有很急喔我是覺得完備的話我們寧可怎樣求好而不要求快同意嗎"},{"start":5787.637,"end":5788.698,"text":"好,接下來我們請吳釗偉中線發言"},{"start":5813.822,"end":5832.099,"text":"主席我有一件事要先那個會議詢問一下請教主席一個問題就是主席一直很喜歡開公聽會那這一件有沒有考慮要先開公聽會剛剛我已經宣告了喔有是不是沒有沒有我說我待會等今天的詢答發言之後我會處理"},{"start":5833.26,"end":5855.383,"text":"因為我要聽聽其他每個委員的意見所以是今天巡查完畢才會決定要不要這樣走是不是而且事實上我們有一個臨時提案大概跟主席剛剛的宣告方向上是一致的所以我覺得待會我們一起來處理好嗎就是黃委員那個提案是的因為我覺得其實不管怎麼樣召開公聽會這件事情就是論事是合乎道理的"},{"start":5855.723,"end":5869.679,"text":" ﹏也符合大家的期望﹏該怎麼處理﹏我們由委員會這邊共同來討論,好嗎?因為主席之前在上個禮拜其實一直主張要開共同會﹏包括到這個禮拜一﹏所以我想說主席應該是"},{"start":5870.74,"end":5890.489,"text":"公聽會愛好者應該這件其實我不是公聽會愛好者你說我是那個流浪犬的愛好者我會收容流浪犬這我接受公聽會是有必要不是因為愛好的關係還有就是那個禮拜一你不是一直說我不同意開公聽會我回去反覆看那個影片就可能你聽錯了我當作你聽錯"},{"start":5891.569,"end":5908.645,"text":"欸對不起你真的要跟我討論這個問題嗎我看到網路上大家幫忙整理的譯文是你的確有說過你不同意我們要在這裡談論這個問題嗎我跟你講齁你自己看你不要去看人家整理的因為我反覆看那我也是建議你自己看也可以看看人家整理的"},{"start":5909.645,"end":5911.327,"text":"最後一個會議詢問問題就是因為剛剛主席在那邊有"},{"start":5932.125,"end":5932.585,"text":"我剛剛沒有引述憲判9號,我剛剛是拿著我們的"},{"start":5954.426,"end":5982.527,"text":"立法委員首冊第14頁宣讀第57條以及第18頁第71條你可以看一下錄影帶跟主席報告一件事情如果主席剛剛講了關於來這邊是接受我們的詢問而不是質詢他們說明我想一下請主席想一想你禮拜一是怎麼對周恩來秘書長的到此為止"},{"start":5983.973,"end":6008.131,"text":"我還是要對你的詢問啊你既然詢問我要回答啊周萬來秘書長是立法院的幕僚長我們是合意製的立法委員的形成的立法院的議址在委員會跟院會秘書長都有來跟委員跟大院跟本院做報告的義務我這樣跟你說明我沒有說他沒有來的義務啊我沒有這樣講啊那我尊重你的感覺啦剛剛的第71條是得列席陳述意見沒關係啦"},{"start":6011.833,"end":6029.81,"text":"我只是說啦,做人誠信是最基本啦,至少我這樣講,至於其他的委員,從來不把誠信當一件事,說謊造謠當做人處事,那就算了,我沒有說你,那就算了。謝謝,我也沒有說你,但是我們希望大家共同尊重。請黃副秘書長。"},{"start":6041.088,"end":6050.872,"text":"兩位早安我想先請教一個問題就是說請教兩位一個問題加一個最基本的問題就是說為什麼要偵測稅務審查官簡單說就好"},{"start":6071.925,"end":6091.233,"text":"因為現在這個新法之後,為了要落實總和廚藝,而且擴大行政法院的這個審理職權,他可以自己做最後的判斷,也就是自己去核到底要多少錢,那他自己必須要有那個計算法要有這個計算的這個能力,所以他必須要有專業有這種審查稅務的這個經驗的這些輔助的人員,"},{"start":6095.134,"end":6096.095,"text":"但是我想請教一下稅務官他的來源是什麼?"},{"start":6115.069,"end":6117.23,"text":"稅務機關本身有稅務審查和合克經驗的這些人員到我們這邊來幫忙法官。稅務機關、稅務單位。"},{"start":6132.975,"end":6154.354,"text":"好,就是原本從國稅局這些稅務機關那邊過來嘛。好,那我想請教次長,這些稅審官他如果被領選上了,他在福利上面有什麼?因為剛剛中委員有請教這個問題嘛。那他們的福利會有什麼樣的不同?所以目前可能要請我們秘書長來回應,因為這個部分我們稅務機關本身不會有什麼福利。好,謝謝。好,那那個..."},{"start":6155.975,"end":6182.778,"text":"委員報告因為現在稅審官我們是參考既有那個制裁法院技術審查官他們過來以後通常我們會給他額外的這個這個這個加級那麼大概大概可以跟他原來的工作的那一個待遇有相當的這個然後通常進行以以往的這個經驗他們借調過來這個專業法院之後熟悉這個訴訟熟悉訴訟這邊操作借調往他回原單位也通常會得到不自拔著的這個機會"},{"start":6184.44,"end":6196.173,"text":"我懂,我也幹過20幾年、24年的公務員,所以我也懂這個道理。所以呢,依照草案大概戒掉是3年嘛,對不對,依照你們的規劃是3年,那它會不會再延長啊?"},{"start":6198.183,"end":6217.005,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6219.13,"end":6237.512,"text":"目前只有行政法院而且通常情形稅務的案件可能都集中在臺北高等行政法院那最高行政法院他也有需要那目前的臺北高等行政法院有四位的是司法事務官但是他專業程度跟我們將來的稅務官當然是不一樣"},{"start":6238.673,"end":6239.654,"text":"獲得全國的反映"},{"start":6258.473,"end":6277.449,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6278.444,"end":6306.123,"text":"就像我們禮拜一的狀況一樣有人問祝安南秘書長然後叫了兩個律師兩個行政院以前憲法訴訟案件的告訴代理人立場就已經偏頗嘛我是說在人民的角度會不會覺得說你今天法官來審理我的案子我的對照是稅務機關結果你又從那邊叫了幫手來那變成是兩個維歐我就像禮拜一的那個狀況一樣"},{"start":6307.964,"end":6313.781,"text":"在修理周恩來秘書長再找兩個律師來一起修理會不會變成讓人民有這個感覺會不會"},{"start":6316.295,"end":6340.537,"text":"委員報告齁那這一個稅審官制度是參考既有的制裁法院的這個紀審官那麼紀審官在20年前在制定的時候曾經也有人因為他也是一樣從自衛局自衛局借料過來確實也有人曾經有這個懷疑但是我們知道這個懷疑的時候我們在在內部倫理上面對我們的紀審官是高度要求這一個倫理你絕對不可以結果現在變成操作了十幾年以後"},{"start":6341.118,"end":6360.589,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6360.629,"end":6379.542,"text":"因為我想說這部分我們將來會做嚴格的了解謝富密講的沒有錯那你引用的那個制裁局那裡也沒有問題我自己也在制裁局實習過那我要講的一個是因為這些人三年到他要回歸到原單位嘛所以他在法院的時候他"},{"start":6380.702,"end":6392.348,"text":"這是一個人性的問題你要去反駁原來的原來機關的他的一些想法甚至可能因為這樣然後讓他的以前的長官覺得困擾那這個是一個比較反人性的設計當然從從這個"},{"start":6395.469,"end":6411.63,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6411.75,"end":6436.605,"text":"既然說每個人不是天使那你今天叫了一個將來三年後要回歸他原單位的這個人他一天回去他一定是面對還會升遷嘛就在公務機關都這樣外調回來常常就是升遷那這樣他有沒有可能持平的去看待每一個稅務案件他的獨立性夠不夠這個是我擔心的更何況我們今天那個監察院他在那個"},{"start":6437.806,"end":6461.485,"text":"108年提出的納稅人權力保護法的調查報告其實它本來就是要保護納稅人它不是保護稅務機關或保護法院為主軸所以今天這樣子的設計會不會反而讓人民覺得我之前被法官一個人K就算結果我現在被法官跟稅審官兩個人K我想次長你們有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":6463.351,"end":6487.012,"text":"我覺得委員關心這個問題當然是一般人民的想法但是如果我們今天真的優秀的同仁被借調到法院去擔任這個稅審官的話我相信他們會本於公正而且變成公平公就是合理的方式來處理這事情市長你講的都是理想就像我們覺得大法官應該是憲法的守護者但是他一連串的下來"},{"start":6488.243,"end":6507.484,"text":"我是打問號啦,那人性跟理想還是有差距像這個監察院的調查報告談到我們納保官的事情其實後來監察委員有約詢我們現任的納保官經過約詢以後他們其實都很了解納保官就扮演了一個真正符合納稅者權利保護的角色"},{"start":6509.75,"end":6528.16,"text":"我覺得我自己的了解這個狀況下有沒有可能就是說因為這些人將來還要回歸到原單位而且還要在那邊升遷有沒有可能這三年他不敢去對抗自己的原來的單位然後再來因為法官對於稅務的理解性他的專業度不夠所以反而對這些稅審官會言聽計從"},{"start":6529.821,"end":6559.181,"text":"正常狀況是這樣就像以前我行文去行政機關詢問問題他回來給我的東西當然我會列為最主要的參考但是以前我們就是用行文的方式行文你回來然後我自己再做個研判那如果說將來在法院裡面去設計一個稅審官甚至他還可以對當事人直接去詢問我跟各位保證一件事情就像這個社會永遠搞不清楚法官跟檢管官有什麼不一樣一樣人民也搞不清楚法官跟稅審官會有什麼不一樣我跟你們保證人民一定是這樣子"},{"start":6559.881,"end":6584.971,"text":"你我不會嘛但是人民一定會搞不清楚這個設計是什麼這樣會變成說大家會不會認為說是合起來一起修理這個民眾我想說這可能是兩位可能還要去思考一下的這個問題啦就會不會說我們講說是對於納稅人的權利保護結果反而到最後變成是納稅人們覺得人民們覺得我們是合起來修理他"},{"start":6585.771,"end":6608.033,"text":"他覺得我繳稅給你們付薪水就你反而結合其他人回來修理我所以我後來反而覺得剛剛那個複密所說的制裁局的部分的那個審查官到最後他變成是自己來培養然後他就是專屬在制裁局這樣我反而也許是一個更好的設計或者是說你們有沒有朝這個方向去思考"},{"start":6610.06,"end":6628.899,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6629.079,"end":6630.14,"text":"我最後再提一個東西就是說"},{"start":6651.67,"end":6668.18,"text":"其實這次有一個就你們草案第20條是不是有提到說人民的稅務糾紛譬如說那個稅務單位要你補20萬然後你們內部救濟程序就是復查訴願之後走上法院嘛那這時候同一個稅務事件如果稅務單位發現還要再補徵5萬塊那這所以是重開一張補稅單20萬還是開單5萬然後併案一起審查是什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":6678.442,"end":6701.811,"text":"委員報告,如果說發現有別的,那是用數字變最佳的部分,再補開一個嗎?沒有沒有,他是說另行做成新處分。稅是多少?只是不需要,就是一個25萬。那你們有沒有想過說,這個新的處分他沒有經過復查訴願,他就可以取代原來的稅單。這是不是一個問題?我想請教兩位。"},{"start":6709.468,"end":6730.275,"text":"我想其實這個是基於程序經濟就像其實他的科稅基礎事實原則上大部分是相同的所以其實之前被取代掉的那個處分他已經經過複查跟訴願那我們免除的只是他起訴的前置的程序而已那後面的審極利益是完全不受影響的"},{"start":6730.695,"end":6741.006,"text":"當然啦我沒有提到省籍利益啦我只是說復查書院的這個會不會大家覺得我後面補的你補開給我的那個東西我卻漏掉了那兩個救濟的程序齁"},{"start":6742.486,"end":6770.224,"text":"好吧那所以這個東西也麻煩你們稍微注意一下因為這是我看你們草案之後我覺得這是一個問題因為他變成說新的這一塊變成他反而掃掉了他原本有原有的救濟程序後面審期我沒有意見那我跟你說齁這稅務爭議解決的方式其實還有很多種不是只有訴訟啦比如說你們那個你們107年有設置那個納稅權力保護官嘛然後行政訴訟也有一個調解"},{"start":6770.964,"end":6791.049,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6791.309,"end":6806.122,"text":"兩位都能夠注意這個不是只有訴訟才能解決稅務糾紛還有很多其他的途徑那個對人民比較有利好不好因為一般人民到法院都還要請律師還有很多成本支出好謝謝各位謝謝副秘書長謝謝次長也謝謝我們吳昭偉也在這裡回復剛剛吳昭偉在諮詢當中所提出的關於本週一本委員會邀請的那兩位"},{"start":6816.852,"end":6834.707,"text":"是依憲法第67條,邀請社會上有關係人員到會被尋。至於說,如果有人自認為是律師的兒子,又認為律師是拿錢辦事,那純屬他個人的經驗之談,不是本席、本召委邀請他們到會的目的,是基於他們的法律專業。"},{"start":6836.465,"end":6854.464,"text":"你說的我都認同啦,是我們是依據憲法請他們來但是你們的做法其實是讓很多人不齒啦你怎麼會叫兩位來然後跟你一起修理那天羅志強委員講了一句話他說主席如果你有一根毛的公正性"},{"start":6855.225,"end":6877.385,"text":"你就不會只請這兩位來,你可以兩兆都請嘛,對不對?而不是說單請,單方面來...就請就是辦公聽會了,你就可以邀請,國民黨同意就可以邀請來參加公聽會了我依據憲法喔,你剛剛講你是依據憲法...憲法是委員會,那公聽會是各兆都可以邀請,包括委員...吳昭偉你上週也邀請了兩位法律專業人士"},{"start":6878.406,"end":6896.522,"text":"議事公正議事公正請吳宗憲召委自己把這句話回送給自己議事公正這件事情請把這句話回收到你自己身上好嗎我反對吳委員對於中委員的這種不當的指涉欸主席我抗議欸"},{"start":6897.483,"end":6898.824,"text":"接下來我們請陳委員俊宇發言"},{"start":6933.083,"end":6954.92,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們有請黃副秘書長請黃副秘書長秘書長早我很好我們今天要審查的是有關稅務行政事件的這個審理法還有我們行政法院組織法相關的條文那對於當前這個制度下稅務事件繁雜且難以勝訴的這種這個弊病做"},{"start":6958.984,"end":6969.361,"text":"判整和制度的改善那尤其我們改制與民眾息息相關那有關於納稅義務人的權利是否受到充足的保障"},{"start":6971.431,"end":6993.435,"text":"既然這部草案是由這個產官學的各界專家組成委員會研擬超過兩年的時間就是期待能夠建立起一個更具專業也更具效能的這個稅務行政訴訟的制度那未來新制上路對納稅的這個民眾來說應該也是相當有感的一個稅務改革而這一部的草案內容"},{"start":6993.755,"end":6995.076,"text":"議員：一、審查司法院函請審理法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":7015.273,"end":7023.966,"text":"各跑一次的這個復查還有訴願訴訟那看到這一次的我們草案當中提出相關配套盡可能讓稅務紛爭能夠一次解決"},{"start":7027.642,"end":7044.259,"text":"不過對民眾來說我們這個長年被訴訟所困的最麻煩的是怕繞入這個無限的這個循環所以我想請教蜂蜜實施新之後如何來增進效率來避免訴訟的這種曠日廢時"},{"start":7047.239,"end":7066.98,"text":"公務委員報告那基於這個總額主義的這個要求那麼以往以往是採所謂爭點主義爭點主義說一個爭議點我法行政法院是審這個爭議點那其他有沒有爭議點我們法院就不管那這個爭議點爭議我覺得有問題我就把它針對爭議點把它圓拉除那個"},{"start":7068.721,"end":7094.335,"text":"但撤銷也只撤銷那個復查決定也沒有去動到原處分所以只處理那個爭點回去以後那其他爭點冒出來在原處分機關他還會再重做處分甚至原來處分可能還是對納稅一人不利那些又會再產生爭議到到行政法院行政法院再審那個爭點所以現在才總和主義說反正我就是多少你要扣我多少稅就是一個這個總額你又有個總額的答案"},{"start":7096.556,"end":7118.459,"text":" ﹏那不要在那邊去切分增點去弄,那這樣子才可以糾紛不要像以前這樣子﹏針對增點來來回行政法院跟稅店機關之間,這樣子才能夠把分層一次解決﹏快速的、迅速的給人民的權利得到保障。好,那我想請教副秘友,未來我們推行實施的這個新制會比舊制還省事嗎?"},{"start":7120.496,"end":7128.001,"text":"因為依照這個規定他在訴訟中對相關的這些爭議點你就算沒有在那個稅政機關的時候去講你在訴訟中去講甚至剛才也有講到說今天發現有其他這些稅額你也可以透過去追加的方式去清科不用再回到原稅單單位可以讓這個程序更快速對對然後雙方都可以去做兵跟追加這一個訴訟就把這一個稅務的這一真正的爭議在這邊就得到終結解決不需要來來回回"},{"start":7149.835,"end":7173.08,"text":"好,那我們這一次的這個草案當中還有另外一個重點是這個稅務事件專業性和複雜性的部分那法官或事務官對於這個課稅的基礎推計以及這個積增事務的經驗及量能有限不過客觀或是不夠這個準確的推計可能會損及到納稅義務人的"},{"start":7176.181,"end":7200.671,"text":"所以我們需要稅務審查官借重其稅務的專業及資深精力來協助我們辦理相關的審查案件而對於稅審官的資格我們看到組織法第20條之3有相關的任用規定那我想就叫做未來不管是要從稅務機關來借調或是聆聘是否會有公平競爭的標準"},{"start":7202.861,"end":7207.885,"text":"跟委員報告,那麼剛才有說明過這個稅審官是協助法院去做這些推計課稅那麼做最後到底要課多少稅這部分的計算,這個需要高度的這些審查專業所以我們現在規劃這個稅審官原則上都是已經有在行政單位操作這些經驗的來協助法院"},{"start":7226.481,"end":7247.501,"text":"所以專業性我們初期是這樣那大家剛才委員隨行的這些公平性的部分其實剛才也報告過這個制度其實是參考智慧財產法院的那個技術長官技術長官他的技術性甚至比稅務更高那但是以這幾年的20年來操作這一個質疑基本上目前已經比較少聽到"},{"start":7248.302,"end":7272.133,"text":"因為他在法院的指揮之下他對正當法律程序跟公平甚至迴避他自己自己原來所處單位的那一個處分讓他保持公平會在法院的法官的要求之下因為他終究是配屬法官的法官會知道你什麼樣的標準是他在公平審判可以接受的所以公平性有他的老老板也就是法官在那一邊所以以我們的這個"},{"start":7272.773,"end":7297.5,"text":"議員．1"},{"start":7298.206,"end":7325.787,"text":"那我想請教副秘友就我觀察未來這個稅審官的這個職務會不會是一個很搶手的職務?各位委員報告如果比較智慧我們當時制裁法院的那個因為剛才張委員有講我們有提高待遇所以以以前的經驗的話我當然不敢講百分之百都一樣但是他們是滿歡迎的以這20年來在智慧局調來這邊他們滿歡迎而且可以了解訴訟的這一塊"},{"start":7327.648,"end":7353.421,"text":"對於將來他們回到專業單位裡面去知道正當法律程序是什麼這一部分幫助其實是蠻大所以應該我們樂觀期待將來會應該是會是蠻搶手的我不敢講說絕對搶手但是以我們的以往的經驗應該是還蠻可以期待的會受歡迎另外就是參考我們這個草案的副表對於這個稅審官的員額最多是10位"},{"start":7354.341,"end":7364.847,"text":"那現有的這個四處行政法院我們預計各會分別設置多少位的這個稅審官那是否足以因應龐大的未來的這個稅務案件量"},{"start":7365.831,"end":7391.878,"text":"跟委員報告齁目前我們初步規劃我相信在不會太多啦齁因為說實話我們司法院的這些總緣額框住我們沒有太多的餘裕去用一些多餘的這些人力所以我們一定用在刀口上我們初步規劃應該也不會超過五位啦不會超過五位初步的案件但將來看案件的這個需求好那也有可能就一處行政法院可能編制只有一位左右的這個稅審官"},{"start":7393.286,"end":7395.387,"text":"因為我們那個原額編制好像是一處可以編0到10位嘛齁?0到10位嘛齁?那我們﹖"},{"start":7411.092,"end":7429.105,"text":"對,我們現在如果編定五位的話就是看起來就是會有一處可能其中會有幾處的這個行政法院是編制一個人的緣額那未來假設我們只有編制一位的緣額那遇到這個迴避的情況的這種情況我們要如何來因應"},{"start":7430.519,"end":7459.055,"text":"講那個稅務審查官是有其實有資源的這個制度所以其實因為他並不是像法官說你配在台北就一定是台北的像那個我們現在最高行政法院也有跟他目前沒有所以他需要的時候他向下面的那個法院的下級法院的這個司法事務官就借調到那個最高行政法院所以我們還是有這樣子機動調整的這些空間"},{"start":7461.735,"end":7480.786,"text":"我想還牽涉到一個問題就是未來稅審官都是來自我們稅務機關裡面的優秀精英在戒掉期限期滿之後稅審官還是要回歸到原任的稅務機關來任職如何來建立民眾對於我們稅審官的信任會站在保障納稅者的權利的角度"},{"start":7489.076,"end":7498.631,"text":"而對這個稅審官本身來說到行政法院來任職的表現是否也會影響到他未來回任之後的這個升遷的這個關係?"},{"start":7500.49,"end":7517.33,"text":"跟委員報告以目前已經有20年經驗的那個技術長官來講的話其實他到專業法院裡面的這些表現有法官會去做考核外界也會去觀察有沒有當他們所一律的這些情形他所做出來的協助法官所做出來這些的決定"},{"start":7519.172,"end":7549.172,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7550.333,"end":7575.488,"text":"我認為適材適用未來這個是一個新制我們稅審官的編制是目前沒有的我也希望說我們有這個好的利益良善的想法能夠符合民眾的期待也能夠實際幫助到相關我們業務推動的過程裡面能夠更加順遂所以我也希望我們司法院這邊對這個部分應該是要"},{"start":7578.15,"end":7581.673,"text":"獲得更詳細的規範讓我們未來的稅政規範推動能夠符合我們目前所要的目標來邁進。好,以上謝謝。謝謝委員指教。好,謝謝黃副秘書長,謝謝陳委員。接下來有請莊委員瑞雄發言。"},{"start":7612.857,"end":7621.081,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們司法院副秘書長黃副秘書長還有我們行政廳的高廳長還有財政部理事長黃副秘書長、高廳長跟理事長"},{"start":7638.106,"end":7650.751,"text":"三位好我想我簡單的來就教幾件事啦這個新制啊這個新制要上路啊我剛很仔細的在底下這樣聆聽啊我就認為要在"},{"start":7653.101,"end":7657.283,"text":"我記得我當年在念書的時候尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性"},{"start":7680.42,"end":7707.586,"text":"讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的一個訴訟制度那這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修一直修修修那今天我看到這樣的這個是有一點感慨國家科稅這個其實是一個高權行為我一科稅以後老百姓當然是哇哇叫這個什麼誠實繳稅什麼這個都是課本上講給大家聽的沒有繳到很多稅的人也應該都會喜歡聽這個"},{"start":7708.846,"end":7738.013,"text":"可是真正我們財政部這個稅卷機關好像在像老百姓這樣拔鵝毛的時候他當然會嘩嘩叫那今天有幾個問題要來救救當然你要解決這個萬年稅單這個問題因為困擾確實台灣民眾也非常久那這一次的稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的一個問題其實裡面涉及到不只這一些本席一直有一個疑問我昨天光看那個納保法二十幾條我看到最後就快睡著了"},{"start":7738.913,"end":7762.27,"text":"何況去比較你們這個新法我跟你講在我們司法法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單沒有幾個人有辦法審所以還是要先公聽這個還是要比較透明一點我們2016年我們納稅者保護法在我們通過以後在2017年正式實施把納稅者保護法定位為"},{"start":7763.191,"end":7763.471,"text":"可以可以可以"},{"start":7790.427,"end":7808.229,"text":"報告委員納保法當然就是它是著重在納稅者權利保護當然我們這一部的稅務行政事件稅審法其實保護納稅者權利也是我們的立法目的之一那所以其實兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這一個部分是一致的"},{"start":7808.609,"end":7832.039,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7832.079,"end":7835.703,"text":"我的核心問題是說我們整個稅增基增法還有整個納保法難道我們去修正完以後就沒有含塞到這個部分嗎?你們認為還沒有嗎?"},{"start":7854.492,"end":7860.997,"text":"我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。"},{"start":7863.666,"end":7883.573,"text":"我的核心問題就是說,其實剛幾個委員在問啊,像比如說那個稅保官的問題啊,那個怎麼樣去定位的這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去把它做一個定位。我的問題倒都不是在這邊。我的問題是你們有沒有去思考過,這個會造成當事人之間武器不平等的問題。"},{"start":7884.773,"end":7903.994,"text":"你稅政機關啊,你本來就是非常有專業囉。我們當然也不會去講說法官對這些稅務全部都不懂,也不會啦。他也會去訓練,只是沒有像稅政機關那麼有實務經驗,每天實地在操作而已啊。可是呢,理論上來講啊,譬如說王滬密,今天這個案子,你今天是審辦長。"},{"start":7906.312,"end":7933.871,"text":"這個案子在你手上你在審的時候你本來就是要聽兩招來聽聽看你現在加一個稅保官進來以後啊我第一個我比較擔心的會造成武器不平等我為什麼怕擔心他造成武器不平等因為他是來自於稅政單位你把他借過來那個心態啊我每一次在協調你們財政部啊稅政機關在人民的一種稅務徵送的案件的時候啊我一看的時候我聽到你們的講法以後"},{"start":7934.858,"end":7960.158,"text":"我都心裡頭我都很大的一個感慨了我都會跟你們講我說像這種有些事實不明不用追殺到底啦心目中還是要有人民的一個存在啦那個一追殺到底到最後不是你為國家多賺盡多少稅收啊是在這個過程裡面人民想那種痛苦真的是很可怕"},{"start":7960.999,"end":7964.742,"text":"我擔心的是這個我擔心的真的會造成武器有沒有平等然後這個稅審官他到底會站在老百姓這一方還是會站在我單純不是說"},{"start":7991.236,"end":8004.099,"text":"幫這個法官來幫他說輔導他輔佐他來做出一個更好的判決我怕不是我怕是又跟回復到站在行政部門的立場就國家高權追殺我擔心的是這個所以你要嘛你就自己找無明合理吧如果要建立起一個公平的訴訟制度的話本該如此啊"},{"start":8018.911,"end":8021.804,"text":"委員報告因為這一個制度參考那個基礎審查官他當時確實有這種"},{"start":8024.913,"end":8051.47,"text":"但是後來所以才有那個聘用那聘用當時想說找民間的專利代理人但是後來發現說其實智慧局過來這些審查官在法院的在法官的指揮之下其實都還能夠保持這個公平中立公平中立那甚至會質疑說通通自智慧局過來的一天到晚再撤銷撤銷他們智慧局自己的處分反而"},{"start":8052.971,"end":8079.953,"text":"他們反正這樣的聲音那所以確實我們這個制度參考主要參考日本不管是稅審官那他們也有這一個的疑問所以在將來在操作的時候我們一定會高度注重這一個中立性這一部分吳委員長我還有四位我沒有定見但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情你們有空去看youtuber我常常會看到很想笑"},{"start":8080.934,"end":8095.281,"text":"美國常常就是行政部門不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單然後走到法庭裡面可以一個老爺爺他動不動那個當事人就不服嘛就看告到法院來"},{"start":8096.357,"end":8120.196,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8120.506,"end":8135.011,"text":"但重點是你會覺得那個制度都超級溫暖。也就是說我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊。行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊。常常到最後回復到你原處分機關裡面人家自為一個處分啊。那現在變成跨機關了。我覺得也很好。"},{"start":8139.964,"end":8162.756,"text":"這個是觀念上每一個人都可以去好好去做一個突破。你就變成說與其讓老百姓這樣在跟衙門之間,就當然我們行政部門之間大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來,我要去申付,我要去訴願,然後再繳三分之一。來來去去那真的是痛苦。那到最後不如行政部門跟人民之間一次交給法院。法院也可以自為處分自為判決。"},{"start":8167.45,"end":8183.986,"text":"這是很大的一個突破啊連現在我們在民事訴訟跟刑事訴訟的時候你到事實審法院到高等法院你把他上訴到最高法院最高法院他也跟你自為判決啊那事實審的問題我把你丟回去啊那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破但是核心概念我還是認為啊這個稅審官這個部分喔"},{"start":8188.027,"end":8198.092,"text":"司法院應該好好去做一個思考這個是一個定位的問題除了我剛提到的那個會造成武器不平等的狀況之下第二個就是說人性"},{"start":8199.349,"end":8199.709,"text":"市長,你的看法合不合理?"},{"start":8228.462,"end":8229.002,"text":"錯!錯!錯!我跟你錯!你的保證無效!"},{"start":8258.564,"end":8270.661,"text":"你這個錯的離譜第一個這種情況就是會發生我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人不是我是跟你說那才符合人性而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎你們的訓練"},{"start":8272.847,"end":8277.148,"text":"你們的訓練本來稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊本來就是要增加稅收的啊然後我增加稅收以後你們的想法就是說你本來就是可惡啊你本來就是逃漏稅啊我徵收你剛剛好而已啊這種心態公務人員這樣訓練起來我沒有說不對可是如果以這種心態倒追又到法院去的話我告訴你就會造成武器不平等"},{"start":8294.229,"end":8319.795,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說如果行政法院這邊可以採用就是他自行聘用那是最好是啊我的意思就是說我們要反省啦我沒有說全部都不對這個制度我們就必須要去反省我也可以請會計師進來啊我也可以請有一些專業的人進來啊我幹嘛都讓你你光一個審判庭的一個組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正你們是同一掛的"},{"start":8321.926,"end":8340.216,"text":"這是個是核心問題喔所以我才建議啦因為很多問題啦當然還有涉及到計判力的問題啦我剛剛提到那個中間判決那個那個都顛覆我們的想法但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對未必不對我很開放但是我總覺得這一步法就這樣子您這樣忽略了齁"},{"start":8341.735,"end":8354.56,"text":"沒有那麼簡單,這部分要修正的是因為對整個制度的一個重大的一個變革我知道是為了解決事情可是為了解決什麼事是為了解決人民的事啊不是為了解決政府部門的事啊所以要慎重好不好好謝謝"},{"start":8359.141,"end":8381.354,"text":"好,謝謝專委員、謝謝次長、謝謝副秘書長先做一個宣告稍後與吳委員、施堯詢答後一線前宣告處理臨時提案然後再做休息接續下來我們請吳委員、施堯做詢答好,謝謝主席有請副秘請副秘書長黃副秘書長委員好"},{"start":8386.988,"end":8402.324,"text":"剛剛聆聽了這個莊瑞雄委員過去是律師出身那我對於他很多對於我們稅務審理專法的一些提醒我認為都值得討論我謝謝莊委員真的替我們示範了什麼叫做舊法條論法條"},{"start":8403.846,"end":8410.793,"text":"我也很多部分被他說服所以我非常支持未來在審議的過程該開公聽會我們願意開公聽會但是我也要提醒稍後要處理臨時提案提案人黃國昌委員他說的也很正確這樣一個制度變革稅務處理的專法"},{"start":8427.088,"end":8455.248,"text":"影響層面至深且遠他認為要開公聽會我們都支持民進黨團的立場就是多元討論這是我們一貫的立場所以說同樣的也希望對於憲政制度至深且遠的憲法訴訟法也請要開公聽會我想這是我們回到一個立法院我們在"},{"start":8456.509,"end":8471.184,"text":"會及更多的社會專業意見有利於我們修法立法的過程當中大家要一樣的標準一樣的開放性的心胸一樣的來擁抱多元的意見不應當說選擇性的來針對可以召開公聽會的議案才開公聽會這樣就是雙標了"},{"start":8479.392,"end":8495.006,"text":"所以非常遺憾喔,憲法訴訟法呢這個黃國昌委員或是國民黨籍的委員並沒有同意委員會層級交開公聽會我認為稍後的臨時提案正是給黃國昌委員跟國民黨的委員們一個很好的"},{"start":8496.759,"end":8498.42,"text":"好進入我今天下一頁"},{"start":8514.122,"end":8539.609,"text":"依據201616年立法院三讀通過的納稅者權利保護法那個時候我沒有在司法法制委員會坦白講要藉由這個授權要定定進一步的稅務處理的專法我真的要多做功課那司改國是會議也因應一個新修的法也做出這樣子的建議我們都要來設置稅務法庭強化法官的稅務的專業能力"},{"start":8541.81,"end":8554.618,"text":"總委員剛說得很好這不是解決政府的問題是要解決人民的需要所以未來在設置稅務專業法庭的時候就要非常的嚴謹對於這個專業的意見不能偏廢下一頁"},{"start":8560.08,"end":8574.67,"text":"那這立法目的跟我們要解決的這些長年的問題譬如說萬年稅單這些問題我都認為該解決只是要更細緻思考更多相關的是"},{"start":8575.35,"end":8579.734,"text":"就是我想要檢視現在我們設置的專業法院或是法庭我們現在的專業法院包括各級的行政法院包括有了高雄少年家事法院也有了智慧財產及商業法院都是因應與時俱進我們讓司法更改革我們讓"},{"start":8595.367,"end":8595.567,"text":"議員：審查司法院"},{"start":8619.929,"end":8644.245,"text":"我要回到剛剛講的立委都支持要有專業法院或是專業法庭就是為了幫助人民落實司法改革但是呢總預算我看了你們的預算書有一個新興計畫籌設北部少年級家家事法院的計畫新年度編了一億四千三百八十萬"},{"start":8645.782,"end":8663.088,"text":"如果總預算沒有進入審查或是這筆預算因為沒有審查而持續的被阻卻在外這是新興計畫喔那怎麼辦這條沒辦法過我們北部少年級家事法院就沒有辦法來籌設那你們有什麼配套"},{"start":8667.202,"end":8685.335,"text":"還是你要對國會提出呼籲說這些目前外界非常需求的一個新的這個制度跟規劃也是大院要求我們要設是沒有錯那我們也承諾了但是相對這些經費當然希望都能夠儘速得到大院的這個支持"},{"start":8685.455,"end":8701.971,"text":"目前籌設北部少年少家法院是還找不到地嗎?還只是租的而已嗎?對不對?對 有一個中繼的地點大概在市里那一邊那接下來要成租 成租需要一些經費是 很好 所以我們在這裡對國會的在野黨的委員提出呼籲"},{"start":8705.774,"end":8722.483,"text":"因應雙北的少年相關的案件案量龐大逐年增加這也是符合立法院的要求司法院積極來籌設北部少年法、少家法院迫在眉睫不要因為據審總預算讓這珍貴的新興計畫一億四千三百八十萬在"},{"start":8730.199,"end":8731.822,"text":"還遠在天邊好嗎我們一起向國會來訴求當然民進黨作為執政黨我們全力努力來推進總預算的審查謝謝複密下一頁"},{"start":8742.677,"end":8766.127,"text":"那針對這個釋憲的結果我還是有一些需要導正的議題今天來跟副秘書長來做討論立法院要維護憲法而不是違逆憲法當大法官給了我們清楚的指引社會也給了立法院一個重考補考的機會立院就來當違憲的更生人吧"},{"start":8767.472,"end":8787.94,"text":"我們來把做錯的事、修錯的法改回來吧!切莫成為違憲的累犯了!下一頁這是無私要我本人這段時間對於遵守憲法、服從憲法法庭的宣判我的五大主張就教於父命第一停止詆毀攻擊大法官"},{"start":8789.198,"end":8812.803,"text":"第二、競訴行使合憲的人事同意權第三、終止各項已經被設立的違憲的調閱委員會或調查小組第四、憲法訴訟法應該開公聽會但是切莫再以修法來凌駕憲法應當停止審查可能再次違憲的憲法訴訟法"},{"start":8814.218,"end":8827.28,"text":"最後一個依據釋憲的結果來啟動立法院職權行使法的修法朝野合作請問我這五大主張覆秘狀有什麼指證您同意嗎"},{"start":8828.408,"end":8828.428,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":8852.299,"end":8865.15,"text":"議長的任期就到明天希望能夠產生我們司法院後續的很多的業務包含剛才委員所推行到的一些政策我們都需要新的首長來推動指示我們持續努力下一頁"},{"start":8873.444,"end":8884.598,"text":"但是很遺憾在野黨的委員似乎是不想要修法下一頁甚至有委員說沒有義務來遵守違憲的判決下一頁"},{"start":8886.566,"end":8909.159,"text":"這個我已經社會都會背了憲法78條立法院委員的行為法第三條跟釋字185號都告訴我們首先合法立委在大沒有人可以例外下一頁我這段時間去特別審視了這幾年來大法官解釋之後立法院啟動修法的時程如果以釋字585號"},{"start":8910.76,"end":8936.014,"text":"解釋出來之後立法院隨即的來重啟爭調會條例的修法我要呼喚2006年的國民黨的立法委員們那個時候民進黨是在立法院是少數但是國民黨基於國會多數的時候也遵守了釋字585號進行了爭調會條例的修法完成了13條下一頁"},{"start":8940.234,"end":8968.134,"text":"獅子六一三號立法院也很快速的重啟NCC組織法把違憲的政治力升到NCC委員的產生的這個違憲的作為導正了我真的也懷念起2007年的國民黨國會多數那個時候的國民黨欸因為即便他們是國會多數他們也遵守憲法的解釋完成了NCC組織法的修訂下一頁"},{"start":8969.46,"end":8984.233,"text":" ﹏上一屆我已經在立法院的場域了。748號解釋之後同婚法案讓台灣成為世界進步的驕傲。亞洲第一個同婚法案的通過。那個時候社會壓力何其之大。"},{"start":8985.154,"end":9008.271,"text":"但是立法院不分黨派挺住壓力讓同婚法案可以三讀通過因應回應大法官的修憲我真的認為過去的國民黨做不到做得到過去的國民黨做得到現在的國民黨為什麼就不遵守憲法呢憲法只有一步"},{"start":9009.311,"end":9036.693,"text":"憲法沒有顏色不管誰在朝不管誰在也這都是立委修法的職責下頁再下頁第二個議題我很快主席將用一點點時間喔有國民黨的委員說現在要修公投法將公投覆決的範圍可以包括憲法法庭判決的結果請問這樣公投法的修法是不是再一次用修法來凌駕憲法了複民"},{"start":9038.524,"end":9042.286,"text":"國民黨委員要做的是依據釋憲的結果啟動合憲的修法而不是在釋憲的結果之後不思悔改違憲上癮來加修惡法"},{"start":9063.237,"end":9087.112,"text":"二、修其他的法律包括公投法我舉例憲法78條很清楚的再次讓大家知道司法院解釋憲法解釋憲法是司法院的權利第二、釋字185號我也不要再贅述很重要的公投法的第二條在全國性公投跟地方性公投都載明了"},{"start":9088.012,"end":9105.182,"text":"一、憲法的規定除憲法規定以外你全國性公投可以做哪些主項目事項地方性公投他可以處理的範圍有什麼公投法第二條也告訴我們公投也不能違反憲法"},{"start":9106.226,"end":9127.401,"text":"所以我希望在野黨的委員要做的是依據事先的結果來導正現在立法院職權行使法違憲的地方而不是該修的法不修現在反而用想方設法去改修其他的法律要再一次來推翻憲法"},{"start":9128.713,"end":9151.313,"text":"憲法解釋就等同於憲法要修公投法用公投來取代憲法這也是中華民國憲法所不容唯一公投能夠介入的就是修憲的層次如果在野黨的委員對於現在的憲政有很多的運作不滿意那麼大家務實的來討論修憲"},{"start":9154.261,"end":9159.143,"text":"所以過去2006、2007或是201616、17的立法院都可以刻尊憲法能夠來把釋憲結果之後完備法制過去的國民黨做得到2024的國民黨沒有道理做不到我也補充一句2016的時代力量的黃國昌委員做得到"},{"start":9181.494,"end":9210.181,"text":"一句是字七四八號我們一起朝野合作修正定定了定定了同婚法案時代力量的黃國昌做得到現在民眾黨的黃國昌立委也應當做得到憲法只有一步我們就是做好來行使立法委員的憲法忠誠義務這是我誠懇的呼籲副院長辛苦了我們持續後續還有很多的意見要就交於您謝謝"},{"start":9211.707,"end":9220.973,"text":"謝謝主席。好,謝謝我們吳委員、司要,謝謝黃副秘書長。現在我們來處理臨時提案共議案宣讀後,再進行處理性宣讀。"},{"start":9223.45,"end":9241.055,"text":"另時提案一略以為求審慎原件請司法及法制委員會於本案諸條審查前舉辦公聽會廣大各界意見邀請相關專家學者及民間團體共同集思廣益以確保立法制周延提案人委員黃國昌、羅志強、翁曉林、謝龍介宣讀完畢請問提案委員我補充說明"},{"start":9253.123,"end":9255.205,"text":"或聯署委員沒有其他補充說明。針對臨時提案有無其他意見或說明?臨時提案"},{"start":9271.647,"end":9276.13,"text":"我非常同意立法院在任何的法案審議之前都應該好好來進行民主討論的程序所以針對稅務行政事件審理法的草案由委員會來召開公聽會我當然都支持如同提案人黃國昌委員所說的這一個專法影響層面至深且遠"},{"start":9302.227,"end":9316.077,"text":"我們民進黨團的立場一致我們支持可以開但是也在這裡要提起呼籲提案人黃國昌委員聯署人有羅志強委員、翁小林委員、謝龍介委員們希望大家能夠比較同樣的標準"},{"start":9318.418,"end":9319.419,"text":"：一、審查司法院函請審議"},{"start":9336.167,"end":9356.225,"text":"我們支持公聽會該開就開但我還是要呼籲請憲法訴訟法的公聽會我們還來得及補正程序希望有加入A案連署的委員也能來支持B案否則就是雙標好嗎?否則就是雙標明天委員會被迫召開的並不是委員會層級的公聽會"},{"start":9359.528,"end":9386.69,"text":"好我想立委要清楚我們的這個作業因為委員會層級的公聽會就是國民黨委員的總召副公席委員拒絕簽字那似乎黃國昌總召對於他已經簽字的同意交開他現在又反悔有不同意見以至於明天我們的公聽會就不是我們有比較高的效力的委員會層級的公聽會我覺得非常遺憾"},{"start":9387.21,"end":9404.234,"text":"所以我支持這個提案公聽會我們該開就開任何的法案都要同樣的標準讓多元對話可以在立法院被踐行好謝謝在那個翁委員發言之前我請教一下那個機關代表這個司法院在8月12號開的是你們叫做公聽會叫研修會要公聽會好來請翁委員"},{"start":9409.701,"end":9439.701,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":9439.701,"end":9462.457,"text":"所以希望就是這個要討論這件事情也要把議事規則弄清楚你們要開公聽會你們隨時都可以開公聽會啊你們民進黨的委員不是明天就已經要召開公聽會啦你們愛辦幾場就辦幾場但是從委員會的名義來辦基本上是要在這個法案還沒有討論之前"},{"start":9465.251,"end":9492.612,"text":"如果已經討論了送出委員會基本上是沒有這個義務一定要辦公聽會那個專委員主席還有我們在場的委員其實我其實很不想爭辯這一些但是翁委員其實你這樣講是錯的因為上次到底要不要召開公聽會就是以你現在講的就是說你草案送出去以後到最後就又沒辦法開公聽會"},{"start":9494.293,"end":9516.578,"text":"當初就是在討論這個所以才講說一定要先開空聽會不要把話點頭過來講那至於今天這個一個提案我認為是涉及到整個稅務行政審理的一個這個過程裏面這個輸送過程裏面要站在哪一方要去到底是要在"},{"start":9518.682,"end":9526.925,"text":"法律的一個設計是要增加在整個行政訴訟的時候法官審理讓他更具備專業性這當然是好事但是確實也會涉及到我剛提質詢的時候提到的所謂的武器的不平等還有我們過去這個整個長期我們所有人員都太衆於這個國家這也都好事"},{"start":9540.37,"end":9567.402,"text":"但是畢竟這是一個訴訟制度注重到有雙方的一個兩兆所以這些人員的一個組成倒不是事實上的未接的問題倒是從哪一個地方來的問題剛剛副秘也去提到說確實也應該司法院如果有餘力的話也應該自己這些人才庫他們自己本身從自己的機關裡面來做一個產生所以這一場一個公聽會這樣的一個提案我是表示贊成"},{"start":9568.855,"end":9576.82,"text":"目前沒有其他反對意見,我先請問機關代表有沒有其他的意見或說明?沒有是吧?沒有,跟我們報告,就是提這個在外公聽會當然我們是尊重只是說這個提案裡面我們是建議那個第二段那麼寫到說司法院已經2024 8月12舉辦這個公聽會之後然後後面這個委"},{"start":9591.99,"end":9607.104,"text":"參與的僅有五間民間代表然後一直到最後說我們是黑箱跟過水的政策宣傳我覺得這部分可能有點誤解啦吼那時候已經對對對那這部分是不是可以可以不要這一些的這些敘述那麼直接接到說為求審慎這樣子為求審慎再一次召開"},{"start":9611.86,"end":9624.419,"text":"我説明一下因為這個臨時提案是要求本委員會開公聽會基本上是跟其他機關無色啦但是因為機關代表有這樣的看法請問其他委員同不同意第二段做一個修正來那個委員"},{"start":9627.1,"end":9652.828,"text":"我基本上同意就是第一段跟第三段就是完整的把為什麼這個法案立法院司法法制委員會的委員們不管是提案人或是其他的委員們都同意為什麼理由在第一段第二段就是他現在的為求審議我們就要求廣納各界的意見那中間這樣子的我覺得司法院複密講的是這個"},{"start":9654.808,"end":9671.251,"text":"我非常同意了不用不用這樣子對人家做這樣子的一個指涉那我要講回來就是說今天為什麼開這場就是我們都同意開因為他關乎的是稅務行政事件審理法他是一個訴訟制度的革新"},{"start":9671.852,"end":9672.172,"text":" ﹐審查司法院函請審議"},{"start":9691.946,"end":9705.3,"text":"所以同樣我再講回來憲法訴訟法也是完備訴訟制度而不是造成憲法法庭訴訟制度的崩壞或者是癱瘓所以我不想再去針對這個程序上這個剛剛我委員講的是"},{"start":9708.063,"end":9710.384,"text":"你剛剛說的事情就知道就驗證這就是遂行你們害怕公聽會討論的做法所以您剛剛講的"},{"start":9731.249,"end":9747.757,"text":"就是你們做的事情不要現在來指鹿為馬那開公聽會不要雙標我再一次要懇求呼籲如果未來還有機會雖然明天司法法制委員會被迫只能用我們個別委員的名義來召開但是委員會層級的憲法訴訟法同樣攸關訴訟制度"},{"start":9752.319,"end":9753.22,"text":"那就要來開了。"},{"start":9765.185,"end":9788.933,"text":"那個第二段保留了但是就是後面輪迴過水之政策宣導如此黑箱作業恐難服眾這個就再改成錦衣會後發出新聞稿恐難服眾就這樣子那其他就不用說太多了"},{"start":9789.895,"end":9790.075,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9807.286,"end":9808.347,"text":"我們就休息10分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":10882.162,"end":10885.004,"text":"好,繼續開會。我們現在有請賴委員事保發言。謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請財政部的理事長。請理事長。理事長好。"},{"start":10911.55,"end":10916.495,"text":"有關於昨天開始到今天有個事情不斷的延燒我想你知道我問你什麼?關於雲端種樹籌獎活動"},{"start":10925.373,"end":10927.936,"text":"我的標題就是說他是大作弊因為我們看結果嘛結果就四個人重複做大獎你說一個大獎一個小獎都是小獎還沒有關係都是大獎比如說有人抽到"},{"start":10944.377,"end":10948.38,"text":"目前我們已經在了解中"},{"start":10963.8,"end":10992.36,"text":"有結果嗎?跟委員報告因為就是昨天因為網路上面有很多的這方面的新聞以後我們已經有請台北國稅局因為這次他是主辦單位那請台北國稅局去洽廠商瞭解所有的系統還有就是所有的運作的過程那也跟委員報告其實台北國稅局已經把那個廠商的這個電腦系統抽獎系統的相關資料都已經帶回局裡面去了目前正在做這個檢視當中"},{"start":10994.602,"end":11006.63,"text":"有沒有可能駭客入侵這也一併在了解外界跟著就有人跟我提到說強烈質疑這四位重複抽到大獎的"},{"start":11008.592,"end":11010.514,"text":"你現在來講就是那個比例很低很低"},{"start":11026.565,"end":11051.374,"text":"請問你啊,你那個父母到底是多少?父母因為他的三次抽獎,因為他們可以參加就是第一次第二次第三次他只要連續有去幾點數有捐贈發票進行這個整個活動的一些遊戲規則的話都可以參加抽獎而且也可以累計抽獎的次數那這個部分因為他有涉及到一個比較細的統計資料是不是我可以會後再另外提供給委員好嗎?"},{"start":11052.401,"end":11055.624,"text":"因為原來昨天講了9萬,今天講了12萬,到底是多少?你們什麼時候可以有結果嗎?明天可以,明天以前可以公佈答案嗎?"},{"start":11074.48,"end":11096.208,"text":"那就要看今天我們那個整個調查過程就是發現他每一個環節到底實際上的狀況是怎樣這個部分我沒有辦法把握說明天一定會有結果你們需不需要法務部或者是事務發部幫你們啊事務發部這方面數字比較清楚啊事務會方面你們來做大家都覺得大家都覺得你們可能不夠力喔可不可以"},{"start":11098.349,"end":11113.359,"text":"不過我想我們先自己努力看看如果需要這個其他機關的協助我們也會麻煩其他方法三天以內可以把結果出來嗎因為明天可能放假說不定明天可能放假然後就沒有啦然後你這個然後就過來放假日"},{"start":11114.559,"end":11140.691,"text":"這個事情就沒有了外界非常關注這個事情委員這個我們一定會盡快盡快三天可以吧三天這個我真的沒有辦法在這邊承諾因為不是不是我們要看那個整個系統的狀況還有就是資料的複雜度還有就是整個驗證的情況所以我只能跟委員說明我們一定會盡快盡快應該不敢現在就說絕對沒有廠商作弊絕對不會有駭客入侵這兩個這我不敢不敢在這邊打包票"},{"start":11141.751,"end":11144.833,"text":"我們就很擔心了財政不管我們稅的資料被駭客我們所有的人幾百萬的報稅要報稅戶通通要被駭客因為這個系統是外包給廠商來設計跟處理的"},{"start":11163.285,"end":11165.046,"text":"我請問你啊,這個在民主國家是人民最大還是官員最大?"},{"start":11191.62,"end":11209.527,"text":"我想民主國家所有的政府的人都是要對民眾負責嘛對嘛所有的任何的措施就是人民最大人民做的直接民權就是公投代議事包括立委包括這個有大法官屬於代議事我這樣講我對吧公投的部分不是我這樣講我對吧我請問你公投是直接民權然後這個這個"},{"start":11220.254,"end":11227.118,"text":"我們的立委的立出來的法律以及大法官的解釋是屬於代議事這個講法對吧我想大法官應該不是代議啦當然代議啊這是蘇永青以前當過你們司法院的副院長吧他也是他公開寫的啊這個是代議事這個不是直接民權最少不是直接民權吧"},{"start":11244.124,"end":11262.078,"text":"對不對這不是直接明確所以我們很清楚現在民進黨的委員開口閉口講說哎呀你不要做違憲如果要真的講啊你給吳思耀多少時間你給我多少時間啊這個主席啊你不要站起來讓我講話不要超過兩分鐘不要緊張吳思耀委員不斷的強調說不要做違憲的壘犯民進黨就是違憲的壘犯"},{"start":11271.531,"end":11279.277,"text":"中華民國憲法講得很清楚中華民國主權包括台灣地區跟大陸地區他們打死都不承認這個就是到底的你既然要說中華民國憲法要不要違憲現在整個政策都在違憲了"},{"start":11289.991,"end":11319.974,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11319.974,"end":11346.561,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11347.236,"end":11375.647,"text":"最早的民進黨的先進門還要整個來講要制憲了用公投來整個推翻中華民國憲法都可以這樣做了為什麼我們不可以去對於大法官的制憲來加以公投我們真的不懂啊當大法官不斷的扭曲自己不斷的指向權力靠攏不斷的已經變成過街老鼠的時候人民要起來講話這就是公投法"},{"start":11376.307,"end":11377.407,"text":"接下來我們有請翁委員小林發言"},{"start":11409.171,"end":11417.457,"text":"主席好,還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。請黃副秘書長。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題。請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理?"},{"start":11438.121,"end":11455.783,"text":"我們期待每一個人都是一個誠實坦誠的人所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德我們講說他是一個道德道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎?"},{"start":11458.391,"end":11459.292,"text":"只是在法院之前不可以說謊。"},{"start":11481.305,"end":11499.411,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11500.272,"end":11500.652,"text":"大法官．"},{"start":11524.517,"end":11539.214,"text":"那麼他在這次的現判之九號判決裏面也是引起這個社會覺得最訝異的然後最不可思議的一段解釋那麼"},{"start":11539.835,"end":11567.114,"text":"大法官認為說行政首長或政府人員在立法院委員會調查程序所做的陳述他就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任無涉法律責任所以如果行政首長政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話乃是屬於政治性的爭議本人要受到民主問責"},{"start":11568.616,"end":11569.056,"text":"您同意嗎?"},{"start":11594.369,"end":11622.495,"text":"那大法官的判決我好像沒有這樣子寫啊沒有這樣子寫所以他說不負法律責任啊他還是要負政治責任啊所以是啊好那所以呢我現在就是從大法官這個判決裡面我們來延伸幾個問題如果說今天有人名他主張你們現在刑法裡面所處罰的虛偽陳述罪是違憲的他可以怎麼寫簽驗"},{"start":11625.472,"end":11652.245,"text":"他可以說人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任無涉法律責任人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容若有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話是屬於道德爭議本人受到社會譴責而道德問題呢這是屬於社會關係中去解決不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入"},{"start":11655.595,"end":11668.707,"text":"這段話您同意嗎?若有人提出這樣子的申請事件認為我們的新法上面現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的您認為大法官會怎麼判?目前大法官並沒有說這個在訴訟過程中的違憲罪是違憲同樣的邏輯啊對啊那請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任?"},{"start":11683.188,"end":11696.496,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官已經做出（所以您是完全認同大法官的這個見解的跟委員報告我們是司法行政單位我們沒有那個資格跟立場去去"},{"start":11698.236,"end":11721.247,"text":"但是你們有提案修法的責任 對不對你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意思去提案修法勒大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任啊那同樣的道理啊那麼人民也可以主張我今天就我所陳述的內容自行負責這屬於我道德責任我說謊是受到社會各界的評價你們憑什麼要來處罰我"},{"start":11723.973,"end":11744.959,"text":"我們看一下現在刑法的第168條跟刑法的第111條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的這個條我們比較看看它的構成要件到底有什麼不同除了少了一個拒絕之外都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責"},{"start":11749.261,"end":11756.363,"text":"當然就像剛剛秘書長講的唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊但是在立法委員面前可以說謊我知道其實秘書長您今天很為難啦看到大法官這樣的憲法判決然後再加上我們現在其實不管在行政法規訴訟法規裡面其實都有很多跟我們這次立法院職權刑事法修的條文是大同小異的"},{"start":11778.43,"end":11805.829,"text":"如果說大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後一般老百姓也可以主張啊我同樣都是說謊或是我同樣我沒有說誠實而沒有說實話的義務但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面的這個敘述這些顯然不太能夠用到法院的稱呼"},{"start":11807.344,"end":11822.931,"text":"是,所以還是就是大法官司法院最大嘛對不對大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭裡面一份的所以呢無論如何就是司法院最大在司法院面前不可以說謊然後在其他的這個機關面前在立法院面前就可以說謊"},{"start":11826.26,"end":11855.265,"text":"我只是感到很遺憾像這樣子的大法官憲法裁判的理由裡面他把很多的道理把它混為一談把我們過去講的政治責任難道不是政治道德嗎我們講一般的個人的人品道德你都可以轉換成為法律責任法律義務為什麼政治道德政治責任不能夠轉換法律義務只是因為他沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎"},{"start":11858.271,"end":11867.583,"text":"我們憲法裡面有說不可以處罰我們憲法裡面也沒有講說有授權這個法院可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人啊為什麼我們現在可以處罰請問秘書長為什麼現在可以處罰"},{"start":11876.434,"end":11901.219,"text":"目前因為法院這個在拒絕以後要為誠實陳述這個的處罰我想大概不只是臺灣﹖ 秘書長簡單來說是因為法律保留嘛因為我們法律已經有規定了嘛對不對我們憲法裡面沒有規定的這麼具體的名義嘛就授權立法者可以去制定嘛那同樣的道理在我們立法院職權刑事法也是一樣我們是進行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律"},{"start":11902.421,"end":11918.911,"text":"同樣的也是把一些政治的這個道德政治責任轉換成為法律義務其實這邏輯是一樣的當然不僅是有關於這個虛偽陳述的問題然後接下來好這個然後再接下來下一頁對於不提供資料也是一樣的我想請這個陳怡聽長"},{"start":11934.472,"end":11961.511,"text":"陳庭長,在我們行政訴訟法169條裡面的規定有說第三人無正當理由不提出文書致命者的話行政法院是可以處罰新台幣3萬元以下的罰款您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要?我想訴訟法這就是明文應該是有必要才會在法律上做這樣一個規定是,如果說我們今天依據大法官的憲法的理由我們把這條廢了呢?"},{"start":11965.62,"end":11976.931,"text":"會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎?因為大法官認為其實人民是沒有出席的義務也沒有提供資料的義務"},{"start":11981.916,"end":12008.809,"text":"因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由"},{"start":12013.488,"end":12031.588,"text":"因為我們認為這個訴訟法應該不在這一次大法官的這個宣判的這個範圍內哦是這樣嗎那所以呢對於這個我們之前講的實質廢死的案的那個大法官宣告那四條說只有那四條條這個死刑才要一致決其他的都可以不用一致決是不是"},{"start":12033.749,"end":12039.473,"text":"我們正在研議當中如果說議址參考當然我們會去做研議那為什麼這對我剛剛講的你們不一起研議呢對啊大法官也是一樣啊根據大法官的議址未來虛偽陳述罪要檢討修正然後無故缺席的處罰不正當理由不提供資料拒絕陣營的處罰都要一併的修正啊符合大法官的憲法議址要保障人權啊"},{"start":12061.766,"end":12064.133,"text":"委員報告我們覺得這情形恐怕不太一樣"},{"start":12065.495,"end":12093.529,"text":"是到底情形哪裡不一樣我請司法院提份報告給我好不好從大法官憲法判決的一直裡面然後去檢視現在所有的我們訴訟法上的有關於無正當理由缺席然後不提供資料拒絕證言做虛偽陳述等等相關的處罰的規定好不好來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣那麻煩司法院可以一個月之內給我這份報告書好謝謝"},{"start":12094.38,"end":12100.785,"text":"好謝謝翁委員也謝謝黃副秘書長接下來請賴會員委員賴會員賴會員不在有請謝委員榮屆發言好那麼上午先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至所有發言登記委員詢答結束好請謝委員"},{"start":12127.129,"end":12132.671,"text":"感謝主席,我請秘書長請副秘書長委員好委員長辛苦啊,對你講的抱歉啊,沒辦法你呃,代理秘書長,我請問你,你一陣子要去離新啊"},{"start":12152.591,"end":12181.496,"text":"如果說能夠順利產生新的我們的長官當然當然他就可以盡早去做一個決定因為現在不是我自己能夠決定的但是已經通過了阿現在阿如果新的一定會沒有出來你剛把你調單放空中這樣喔?委員報告那也許如果沒有生意產商也許會有代理的司法院長嘛"},{"start":12183.335,"end":12199.772,"text":"對阿 有人代理阿 現在代理的村的黑白的剪到這樣 一定要代法官?到我們的那個司法院的規定是要在總統在大法官之內 你是有支持他們 你有支持到他們"},{"start":12203.476,"end":12229.866,"text":"沒有,跟委員報告,因為我們的調動都是,都是符合法官自願的,這是我們法律有保障的,所以一定是有,照各個法官自願才會鬆手。因為我來這裡,都要請你起來,大法官就不能來啊,我也沒辦法請你來啊。啊所以有人要問你的時候,我會疑心不忍啊。我請教你。因為我對大法官不一定就不是對他們的個人,你想喔。"},{"start":12231.412,"end":12252.868,"text":"憲法宣判後,這個會議後,後面其他的包括新的案,我不會因為對於那個案的判決我代表人民,我歡迎人民對於不好的聲音但是新的案件就新的,一個case,一個Case沒辦法對不對也不會因為個人"},{"start":12254.738,"end":12273.689,"text":"人人都有個人的,我們都存中意嘛。但是當你的法國違背到我代表的民意的時候,人民給我的壓力,叫我來這裡對表達人民的聲音嘛。啊所以變成只能對你表達,我不知道我整會幾半這樣,跟你聲明之後,你剛好回去給人家轉達啊。"},{"start":12281.706,"end":12304.915,"text":"憲法法庭是很獨立在運作,我也不能,我也沒有資格,你有信心嗎?我想委員在立法院在催省那些事情,其實沒有報告那個大概媒體館長都有啦。沒有啦館長有,他們不一定看啊。我也沒有在煮給大家去看清是說你有看過有看過,但是我相信...這看過沒有嘛,你怎麼想我配合啊?"},{"start":12306.335,"end":12326.711,"text":"表示給我的支持者和人民回覆,因為我晚上在台北的時候我都會說台灣都沒有卡電話來,也沒有表示意見。我請教你,很重要的,因為這個後面就牽涉到,他自然破罐之後,我們要怎麼做,這就很重要了。"},{"start":12328.12,"end":12339.382,"text":"我記得之前每天有報到一個詐騙集團一個線索的車手的頭就對了結果有兩個車手被抓到這兩個車手抓到之後呢跟警察就對了跟這個線索的警察說他叫我們去抓我們抓的錢都九二結果警察就一步步"},{"start":12356.502,"end":12371.756,"text":"他就要看那些非民進行的請穿好啊。請就穿好啊。不去就穿好誰啊。後來之後呢,他是用什麼那種請冠犯人那種方式啊。到處去請。"},{"start":12377.217,"end":12378.098,"text":"先把這個憲法應該是選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇選擇"},{"start":12407.398,"end":12416.465,"text":"委員報告我一部份沒看到你知不知台海有這幾個案件的規定有用講得很詳細我大概會講在這個憲法一半的113的憲法裡面被質疑就是說必須要以犯下最嚴重的犯罪才可以判死刑對不對"},{"start":12434.534,"end":12442.997,"text":"阿像他這樣齁,事先就傳好就事先就要準備要給他們兩個死的,就事先把母親傳好死,然後再用這個手段把他打死,你看這樣有算最嚴重的犯行嗎?"},{"start":12453.759,"end":12475.873,"text":"委員報告因為因為我們受傷的過程比如說這案件還調查下去沒有 我在講的這個案件的過程嘛就是說這款的反應有算最嚴重的反應嗎?因為可能要看具體的事實啦因為你只要這樣的事實將來去調查之後又知道到底是什麼原因什麼背景再來就是說"},{"start":12483.274,"end":12494.518,"text":"一審啦齁沒給他判死刑一審給他判無期徒刑無期徒刑的意思怎麼樣你說齁啊他就欠家屬達成好戒啊因為他有欠這死者的家屬好戒所以餒給他判無期徒刑沒判死刑然後齁"},{"start":12510.64,"end":12516.745,"text":"這比格還在上手啦 要再謹慶他的罪行啦 希望再謹判啦他想說他比較合格啦 我請教你 你過去的這個判決經驗啦 他有比較合格但是沒有負責 這樣算有合格還是沒合格 我要賠你六百萬 但是我一次都沒給你 這樣算有合格還是沒合格"},{"start":12539.282,"end":12548.164,"text":"給委員報告齁 合格的時候你是說好的時候是合格 啊假設 我想說你委員剛才說的說 啊事後並沒有 並沒有流行 都沒有流行 當然 最少 按照最少去 去 譬如說 最少去國定法院 齁 啊這一年可能嘛 要判的時候 到要判過的時候 你也問一下 我說我們不能把 比個 那個比來這裡問一下說 啊這個有沒有合格 錢有沒有合格"},{"start":12567.246,"end":12574.515,"text":"啊你現在總要在算盤 總要用說他事有何概所以我認為這 我看有這麼簡單的方法"},{"start":12578.516,"end":12597.519,"text":"案的審判我沒有參與我不知道但是正常律師啦比如說律師、代理人、被害者有給檢察官講,如果在那裡講就去尋求信我們現在他台灣說的意思就是說他要沒差別啦水機殺人這個還要做嚴重的反省才有可能判死刑嘛啊如果他這個算了說他這個不是水機的也不是沒差別的就我準備要給你死的這樣才不可以判死刑呢"},{"start":12609.155,"end":12610.436,"text":"我們有兩個警察,給一個4人的兇犯"},{"start":12638.882,"end":12640.723,"text":"這兩個警察要跟他們出題﹖結果﹖他走到京阿島﹖一台17島﹖一台38島﹖你如果身為家屬就看到﹖感覺看人家死得這麼淒涼的就對了﹖家屬的無奈﹖這種的感覺算是反下最嚴重的反省﹖是不是﹖"},{"start":12666.889,"end":12693.731,"text":"我們要看他個別情形,我可以講當然這是很嚴重的事他這個選擇不是故意的喔,你不是去意的喔,如果這樣才有大法官現在的解釋,這個是不會判死刑的啦,覺得是這樣嗎?全部我剛才講那是舉例,大法官的理由是舉例,他實際上要看其他各種的這個當時發生的所有的經過因為大法官該"},{"start":12695.425,"end":12695.805,"text":"議員：一、審查司法院函請審議"},{"start":12715.842,"end":12729.514,"text":"這具體的情形我再向委員報告,剛才是一個例子,可能具體的情形我再去講,你現在...如果這樣現狀是這37個時期的情況,你看到已經台法官席還沒過月了嘛,一年過月了,你們有去查看這裡的人,這37個冬季是都有一筆刮毛"},{"start":12739.898,"end":12746.71,"text":"我沒有看到他的會長上司在審查當中沒有啦,我說你台法官解說後,他們看這37個當機時,審判有一定過嗎?"},{"start":12751.718,"end":12759.799,"text":"我最喜歡審查,因為很久了,很久了,很久了,所以要調比較早的檔案,有的檔案已經有了,有很多有很久了,他的檔案已經超過保存期限,超過保存期限,所以要用另外一個方式去查,不是都...沒有啦,有查過的啦,沒有..."},{"start":12778.983,"end":12786.047,"text":"因為若一地割離就不用再非常上手了嘛,是不是?若一地割離就可以,我要問你的意思是若一地割離,我們也牽涉到後面這37個法制61個啦,這61個有競爭比賽的、有辦會小的、有去倒台的、有去唱歌的就對了"},{"start":12807.745,"end":12818.727,"text":"我告訴你這是很惡劣的啦!所以現在我們回到好台灣已經解說了、判決了這37個我要問的就是若一帝國是不是立法院我們可以繼續下去嗎?就是這個理由一帝國的這個理由這關過嘛其他的不可能再用其他的理由當然其他的理由要經過最高檢察署、檢察總統去做審核所以若一帝國的就是法務部現在可以"},{"start":12835.325,"end":12835.645,"text":"因為這發露一個"},{"start":12864.887,"end":12867.788,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":12884.773,"end":12898.2,"text":"啊你現在你司法院你要有一個態度出來啊,所以我告訴你不要給你為難,我每次給你問的你拿回去給我看清楚啊,他意志什麼了啊,現在來,啊不好來,你說他如果沒有受訓練就對了,這條刑事訴訟法我一定要給你問嘛,這是應該你拿出來嘛,你有要拿出來嗎?"},{"start":12907.811,"end":12909.635,"text":"司法院函請審查司法院函"},{"start":12918.524,"end":12938.507,"text":"議員 議員 議員"},{"start":12938.627,"end":12939.808,"text":"因為這條先提出來,因為這條我講過了嘛。"},{"start":12965.455,"end":12979.565,"text":"對嗎?你有印象嗎?我問過你,我剛才問過你,這個這款是不是在你手上嗎?你說是嘛。受刑能力的部分一定是,因為實際上執行是檢查那邊嘛。所以我們這邊是配套的,我只要檢查看看,這條你現在沒有打開,現在沒有人要,沒有人敢動手嘛。他是不是有受刑能力?他是不是過了7天、8天、15天,過了他聖經效益啊?"},{"start":12989.733,"end":12990.615,"text":"現在沒辦法判斷,19到20,發不報,也沒辦法執行。這樣好不好?"},{"start":12997.648,"end":13025.622,"text":"我們有時候要補分喔,教育委員我們共同來推上來好不好?來,你看外國人這樣做一個說明我這補分喔,一定要,因為這次的補分不可能隨便他們單獨去處理啦因為這補分是法務部跟政府啦我知道嘛,我說你這樣很清楚啦我一個時間嘛,因為100控告你的都已經拗車案、拗嫌疑過你一定不得審出來,不得審出來兩個態度啦第一就是什麼?法部完畢啦齁,你如果還在嫌疑第二就是什麼?拼議!"},{"start":13028.124,"end":13028.785,"text":"會議員．一、審查司法院函請審議"},{"start":13041.212,"end":13041.993,"text":"接下來有請紅委員孟楷發言"},{"start":13072.281,"end":13087.692,"text":"好,謝謝周偉,麻煩請我們李慶華次長請李次長次長,這兩天財政部可能可以申請近視世界紀錄有沒有注意到?"},{"start":13089.079,"end":13109.615,"text":"我知道愚情在反映什麼事情是因為有人講說這個雲端發票的抽獎啊四人重複抽獎重複中獎以這個機率來看真的是為乎其為有網紅去用CHAP GDP還是用這些AI來去計算本席剛剛也有計算過如果說第一輪的抽獎"},{"start":13111.172,"end":13139.673,"text":"的機率跟第二輪抽獎的機率一個第一輪是五個中獎名額第二輪中獎是九個中獎名額九萬人來去參與的話那這樣子到最後得出來的結論同一人兩次中獎的機率為乎其為啊這個數字我都不會念那更何況是同一次抽獎裡面有四個人都符合這樣的一個機率那是代表什麼意思?乘四啊就是這樣的機率要乘以四次啊是不是?"},{"start":13140.646,"end":13158.406,"text":"那第一時間我看到財政部有講沒有違法那再來不到12個小時又講說來上一張沒有內定造假但是要請國稅局查證那請教國人大家都很關心阿"},{"start":13159.636,"end":13178.941,"text":"現在次長有沒有掌握到底是什麼狀況發生這樣的一個機率包委員目前我們還沒有完全掌握因為還沒有完全掌握對現在我們是國稅局已經去把那個就是承辦機關他們的那個電腦系統還有相關的資訊所以這個是委外的標案對是委外的標案對好這個委外的標案多少錢多少錢"},{"start":13181.332,"end":13194,"text":"總共是...這個委案因為說實在話本席昨天也很關心我請我們的同仁上網看一下財政部的絕標公告我們還發覺這一個標案還真的很難找到"},{"start":13195.103,"end":13200.668,"text":"所以這個標案總共多少錢?應該是450.450萬吧450萬450萬的標案總共做時間是從6月到9月嘛 對不對這是參與抽獎的時間那真正整個抽獎結束的時間是10月25號"},{"start":13214.041,"end":13234.621,"text":"450450萬有包含這些獎品、獎項以及辦理﹖都包含在裡面﹖好那出現了這樣的一個狀況當然國人就會有質疑就覺得說為什麼會這樣子因為這個機率真的是不可思議甚至有人講說可以申請金氏世界紀錄那所以什麼時候會讓國人知道我們財政部的一個調查狀況"},{"start":13235.561,"end":13259.119,"text":"目前我們已經請國稅局在積極調查中我們也希望他們盡快能夠給我們答案啦所以我們希望在短時間之內幾天之內就可以有一個你知道這個對於財政部來講我覺得對所有機關當然都不應該發生這樣的事情但是尤其是發生在財政部因為大家會同仁會認為財政國稅這都是支柱必較數字都算得非常精準"},{"start":13259.819,"end":13281.955,"text":"你不能說跟國人要納稅的時候一塊錢兩塊錢都跑不掉結果突然間你們辦一個活動九萬人參與結果機率那麼低然後居然有四個人可以直接中獎那這樣子發生在財政部我覺得這對於公信力是非常大的折扣那現在你如果說講是說不是財政部問題可能是委外廠商的問題那委外廠商會不會有相關的一個連帶責任"},{"start":13283.848,"end":13309.214,"text":"這當然就是要看我們那個後續追查的結果到底實際上的狀況是怎樣如果確實有相關確實是在這個整個程序過程當中或每一個環節當中有發生一些有問題的事件我們會依照相關的規定來處理相關規定有怎麼樣處理就看是不是我不知道他們契約當時的契約裡面是不是有追究責任或賠償或只是後續的一些其他的處理事件"},{"start":13309.738,"end":13320.385,"text":"好 那本席再跟您再請教一下像這個標案它也是用本預算的部分那所以說它是不是某種程度上它也算是侵犯到人民、國人、納稅人的一個權益"},{"start":13321.983,"end":13342.44,"text":"因為我今天早上居然還看到是說我不知道說是不是財政部正式的回應啊講說這個是用雲端發票的基金來去做辦理所以跟本預算沒關係所以這樣子即便是可能有瑕疵也不影響國人的權益是這樣嗎難道基金的預算基金的預算不是人民的納稅錢或是說我們相關的一個消費來去累積嗎"},{"start":13344.362,"end":13359.455,"text":"怎麼可能說縱容到這種程度好像不要沒關係辦活動沒關係換件iPhone反正我也沒有參與啊iPhone不是我我也沒有問題啊但重點在於是說今天辦出來這樣的活動然後被國人質疑了"},{"start":13361.028,"end":13374.328,"text":"我們還會這樣子輕描淡寫嗎?不會,這件事情我們非常重視基本上我們一定會嚴查整個流程還有就是整個環節到底有沒有任何的狀況有沒有問題有沒有廠商這一家廠商是第一次投票還是之前就有投票過"},{"start":13376.05,"end":13394.486,"text":"有投標過所以他也不是第一次來參與的廠商那既然如此的話會不會過去的活動可能沒有被人家提爆也有類似的狀況因為現在PTT上面也有講還有另外一個抽獎活動也是我們財政部辦的說有特定姓氏的人30%的中獎機率"},{"start":13397.267,"end":13413.98,"text":"那這樣子會不會變成是說到最後大家會看原本我們以為財政部應該是最支柱必較的原本以為覺得說我們鼓勵雲端發票很好啊少無止化啊但沒想到原來你們拿450萬公帑原來你們拿700萬公帑辦的活動變成是都有瑕疵"},{"start":13415.131,"end":13436.04,"text":"報告委員剛才委員提到的另外一個標案不是我們財政部辦理的案不是財政部辦理嗎網路上有知道這個訊息是不是稅捐處對自己辦的活動也都是這個稅國稅、稅捐、財政怎麼會讓國人覺得應該是最支柱必較的"},{"start":13437.312,"end":13463.274,"text":"所以查一稅查兩稅都要叫大家補稅要繳稅那結果沒有想到我們花450萬辦的一個活動居然變成是要上金氏世界紀錄我說實在話你也相對無辜啊今天部長在財政委員會還沒有來嘛那你當然我要好好的了解嘛那最後來我們看一下2025年說統一發票經費大增再加開雲端五百元獎項"},{"start":13464.68,"end":13486.368,"text":"這是次長你前幾天的新聞嗎?這樣子?如果辦下去的話會不會讓大家質疑你的公信力?可是這個是我們統一發票的抽獎的活動我們那個都是公開抽獎的而且從來沒有人質疑過這個問題以前都是非常公正公開而且非常透明而且沒有重複對講的問題次長"},{"start":13489.19,"end":13503.572,"text":"市長 你在一天前 你們在一天前不到12個小時前 你們也是這樣講啊說這一次的雲端發票活動公開透明 然後怎麼樣的部分本席現在提出來只是要告訴你就是說"},{"start":13504.173,"end":13513.02,"text":"我其實很痛心啊我說實在話沒有人想要看到你今天來這樣子備詢啊但是既然發生這樣的狀況短時間如果說還不能讓大家釐清的話只會讓大家覺得國人對於我們財政單位會以公信力大打折扣這才是最擔憂的地方啊報告委員我們一定會盡快的釐清而且會把釐清的結果對外說明清楚"},{"start":13524.329,"end":13524.629,"text":"現在有請陳廷輝委員陳廷輝陳廷輝委員不在"},{"start":13551.132,"end":13564.187,"text":"有請富坤祺委員．富坤祺委員不在．有請楊瓊英委員．楊瓊英委員不在．有請蘇清泉委員．蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在．有請吳春成委員．吳春成吳春成委員不在．有請林思明委員．林思明林思明委員不在．有請鄭振淺委員．鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在．好"},{"start":13567.871,"end":13591.221,"text":"那麼所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員質詢時,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員林思明、胡坤祺所提書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。討論事項所列議案報告及詢答完畢。決議。"},{"start":13592.722,"end":13598.186,"text":"均令定期繼續審查本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"156331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade2767cf86bf6a785467ff13663af3209ef293381db574b3e9ea4ab2856517d8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:46:02 - 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你看很多錢但這個錢就是要好好利用主委你要讓這個F4裡面不要浪費其實我們交付他們非常多的任務也希望善用這筆他們的這樣的資源來讓金融市場或是整個社會更好齊交所呢齊交所還有集保應該都"},{"start":432.648,"end":449.096,"text":"應該都不少錢吧委員好因為企交所規模比較小大概只有證交所的一半兩百億是也不錯啊都是坐擁百億金三銀三那那個集保勒"},{"start":457.318,"end":481.245,"text":"林董是那集管目前大概380億左右喔要加上900多億欸欸這大概歷史的新高啊對以前喔我在每一屆大概以前都又小又弱做什麼事也都沒錢你們這樣好的時候應該要好好整修一下比如說"},{"start":483.794,"end":503.301,"text":"這個政企局裡面那個沙發已經20年沒換了沙發委員有灌結過所以我有特別去看那個沙發應該不存在啦喔換掉了喔對因為舊的東西該換還要換還有一些資訊軟體等等那OTC呢OTC錢多不多"},{"start":511.474,"end":531.428,"text":"檢董去那邊比較不習慣因為以前101那邊資源多相當小地方啊大概多少錢我們基金累積到現在有100億但是現金比較少我們現金可以動用的大概是6億多60億、100億OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":534.793,"end":562.014,"text":"那加一加都是超過千億的包括那個存保存款保險兩千多億當然還有其他啦我覺得應該是在保發中心錢也比較多吧保發中心其實錢不多啦那是保發基金比較多一點保險安定基金多大概多少安定基金"},{"start":565.834,"end":588.368,"text":"420億左右420億OK那其他加一加所以主委你掌管的其實是中華民國最重要的我想每個部會都很重要只是說因為我們剛好這裡最近他們的經營或是這樣都很努力所以累積一些成果那我們希望能夠善用這些資源"},{"start":589.485,"end":613.365,"text":"就你資源很多,要拜託你一件事情,下一次黃仁勳來臺灣的時候,你拜託他可以到臺灣發TDR好不好?我們請周邊啊,周邊這些都是,蕭永、山正都很強的啊有沒有辦法請,像這個NVIDIA公司回臺灣分拆上市"},{"start":614.554,"end":638.441,"text":"所以我們想這個委員這個提示我們會來研究一下我大力研究因為我在幫你啊因為主委你說你要打造臺灣成亞太的資產管理中心你的能見度要高當然要世界級的黃榮鑫的臺灣人嘛透過他們的關係我知道他們裡面可能有人跟他認識"},{"start":640.527,"end":653.598,"text":"如果沒有認識就算了經濟部長、郭部長說跟他認識應該認識機會都很多我們希望可以讓國際公司回臺灣上市好不好好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝羅民財委員好主席在這裡宣告今日登記花"}]}},{"id":"156322","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156322","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade0308a66e0d950b1167ff13663af3209ef293381db574b3e93f3c00194d6c03235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:13:48 - 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個可能原因是因為離島居民的儲蓄率蠻高的就存蠻多的以我們金門來講現在民間的存款你知道金門民間存款有多少錢嗎這要請委員指示你猜看看我們的戶籍人口是14萬長租人口大概一半吧7萬你要不要猜看看"},{"start":86.539,"end":112.756,"text":"是有平均高於全國的水平嗎全國水平是多少呢平均存款這個我們今天的儲蓄不是儲蓄率就儲蓄的總金民間儲蓄的金額是一千多億一個大概十萬人的地方儲蓄存款這不是算投資不是算房地產就存在銀行的現金今天如果每個人都去領可以領一千多億出來"},{"start":113.436,"end":139.044,"text":"所以說這原因當然你不能說金門賺比較錢因為金門所得是比較低的相對臺灣平均是比較低的但可以存這麼多錢其實另外一個角度來看就是因為我們金門非常缺乏投資的管道所以當然看到LINE上面網路上有一些說這個某某某可能名人或什麼有什麼訊息投資很多尤其很多儲蓄人都是比較公教人員退休的比較省吃儉用實際上我也接到陳情安"},{"start":140.845,"end":160.783,"text":"相信就被詐騙就會去投資還給人家面膠什麼這一類的因為不知道說這些東西是詐騙那這個東西造成這個事實上很大的影響那我們看到你們金管會在做的在阻絕詐騙方面你們有十大面向比如林貴林貴這個有做有一點成績林貴攔詐銀行賬戶管控"},{"start":163.365,"end":177.85,"text":"第三方支付、虛擬貨幣信用卡、完善、虛擬貨幣等等很多的東西我看到你們在做這個防詐的部分當然有做一些努力但是我們看到了在金管會"},{"start":178.37,"end":200.622,"text":"一百一十二年十一月十五號那時候有請銀行公會做一個移設詐騙境內金融帳戶的預警機制你們要有七家本國銀行先行事辦其他本國銀行將陸續上線即便你們這樣做審計部在你們這個這個算防詐是重要施政的這個查核報告裡頭有說這個預警機制就是設詐境內的帳戶預警機制轉入帳戶的灰色名單的平台還要"},{"start":205.945,"end":219.861,"text":"持續追蹤辦理、研議、擴大金融機構辦理首長請問說你們這個機制現在的進度是如何現在這個陳副委員關心我們有兩個一個是移設詐欺境外帳戶因為實施成效不錯那從我們111年開始做"},{"start":221.983,"end":249.193,"text":"原來7家現在有擴大嗎有有有我們接下來馬上會增加10多家明年應該全部都會全面性明年是110人就全面性的會實施對就是境內疑似帳戶的那個預警帳戶這個其實是真的蠻重要的這樣子就是被詐騙的話匯進去剛吳中興委員說很多人債務不是你抓到就抓翻是被詐騙是不是可以拿回來這個其實很重要然後你們的業務報告"},{"start":250.873,"end":277.06,"text":"這個要繼續努力,詐騙大概是太猖獗了第二個你們的郵報有提到說對高齡金融的這個行動措施這個高齡經濟或者現在所說的這個壯世代我也希望你們要繼續提出一些措施不要讓這些高齡的這些長者或是壯世代推銷人的錢都變得好像那個詐騙集團眼中的這個肥一樣這一點可能你們要再提出很多的這個措施這個請您要繼續努力"},{"start":278.32,"end":302.835,"text":"然後接著我們提到我們上次提到一個你準備做一個TISA嘛退休準備規劃的這個帳戶齁那上回我聽到您在說當主席聽到您在說日本的NISA是稅嘛那因為我們本來就沒有什麼資本利得啊這個證交就不用稅證交所得就不用繳稅那所以爭取租稅減免在臺灣比較困難這上回你說的嘛爭取額外外加的就外加比較困難因為本來就有些稅是"},{"start":304.095,"end":318.948,"text":"這個跟日本可能就不一樣但是你看到日本你也知道日本是今年已經擴大到免稅期間無限期免稅投資金額達到1800萬日元在台灣這個要做亞洲資產管理中心或者說我們要做一個金融特區的這個情況下"},{"start":320.829,"end":349.602,"text":"如果只是像很多委員說你是把所有的優惠包在一起是只是讓好像禮專讓一些禮專當然有更系統性的去介紹相關的金融產品當然賺其中的手續費以外這個對國人現在國人的誘因在哪裡啊感覺就是沒有什麼特別的誘因啊為什麼國人要特別去參加你這個TISA的這個賬戶沒有誘因啊我們上回上個禮拜討論過很多嘛是是是"},{"start":351.242,"end":375.79,"text":"當然就是說我們剛剛也有人關心這個問題就是因為確實我們的稅制比較特別對我上個禮拜講過所以我知道說因為本來資本利得我們本來就沒有稅但是如果你沒有一點點誘因的話不管不一定說稅或者是一些政策上的一些什麼誘因的話你要退這個會非常辛苦我們都希望你成功我們都希望這個臺灣戰爭成為亞洲資產公司但是說在地緣政治上有一些比較辛苦的還有"},{"start":377.35,"end":404.415,"text":"政策嘛 政策我們可以協助說立法院該修什麼法我們大家一起來推動但是你也要讓百姓覺得他可以接受或他願意去做這件事情啊你有什麼秘方嗎或你有什麼想法嗎現在好 各位委員報告謝謝委員的支持我想剛剛提到我們這個部分我們先把這個制度建起來我們持續的去找到各式各樣的誘因比如說剛剛講其實我們也並不放棄其他任何的我們也在持續在加商"},{"start":406.797,"end":422.888,"text":"你隨便講一點看有什麼你覺得比較困難的需要我們協助比如說我舉例講這個稅來講對不對稅來講你們也許不好意思說因為同樣是部會經過立法院財政部可能說我堅持本來已經免稅不能再優惠不能再怎麼樣"},{"start":423.328,"end":444.039,"text":"譬如說我假設我們參考國外對於所謂的第二層的部分他們有像我們比如說我們現在已經有自提6%的那個就是自提6%可以遞減課稅那說不定可以朝這個方向來努力有沒有新增其他的稅務因為其他國家都有第二層的這樣的一個規劃我上面上個禮拜聽了一下稅領恩比如說我們財源部的時候我們27萬的儲蓄免稅對不對27萬那個什麼免稅"},{"start":447.941,"end":473.31,"text":"因為你也可以在某個部分再做一樣不然你做27萬免稅大家就一直去要做到那個額度就存款嘛因為都有免稅你這個優惠可以換成是別的啊對不對對稅屬你來講也不一定會有那麼大的稅屬嘛這問題就在27萬額度之內說不定可以做一些不增加新的稅務有沒有可能做到這一點我給一些什麼樣的政策讓這個你的提撒才可以推得成嘛當然如果只是把所有東西包一包放在某個地方我看所有的委員都說聽了20幾年啊"},{"start":475.111,"end":492.763,"text":"大家就會覺得好像舊瓶裝新酒事實上也是舊酒也了無新意你要推動也非常困難我們大家都希望這個是可以成功但是總是有一種如果是政府的一些平行部門沒有辦法做我們可以來協助你們要提出一些想法立法委員都希望社會進步的"},{"start":494.425,"end":512.723,"text":"那講到這個資產管理中心大家都有提到但你也說其他很多縣市都可以做那當然現在討論的比較多是高雄那高雄的話那如果講高雄當初說的是說我不知道你們用什麼樣的規劃是用境外資產管理特區規劃呢還是會利用自由貿易港區設置管理條例的14條來解套"},{"start":514.384,"end":535.294,"text":"這是雙軌的 剛剛提到就是說假設用我們現在金管會所能用的政策工具跟地方政府能夠用的政策工具我們是不需要動用到這個所謂的這個自由貿易港區設置條例這是其中一個那另外一個呢當然還有自由貿易港區設置條例第14條第一項它可以有一個設置一個對外國的資產管理公司那交通部的意見呢"},{"start":535.934,"end":552.166,"text":"交通部初步來看我們正在溝通中溝通就是說事實上我知道上次在院一邊提出來這個院紀的就是部會之間提出來說我相信交通部好像對之間有保留吧沒有我們是持樂觀的態度你們持樂觀交通部呢那當然我聽到他們說好像不怎麼適用吧"},{"start":553.026,"end":579.263,"text":"我聽到了如果我的訊息是不正確的我還是希望你們可以過啦所以說如果這部分也需要跨部會溝通你也可以請立法院相關的其他單位也可以來協助嘛對不對不是交通部說不行就不行嘛我們要退一件事情對不對這個是總統要退亞洲資產管理中心是總統要退的啊一個部會如果在法條上的解釋那麼過拘泥於這個法條上的東西國家到底是要怎麼前進嘛對不對"},{"start":581.284,"end":606.891,"text":"我覺得金環有時候真的很客氣在跨部會之間財政部說不行啊這個稅不行啊那好啊我們在這個不做的情況下這個好江部說這個港區要10條之一這樣不行啊這個可能不適用啊因為從前都沒有這樣的例子啊可能也不適合啊所以我們就很客氣好那我們再想辦法不好意思你要執行的對我們會來努力啦你要執行的是國家是總統的政策這些部會如果說這麼不配合總統的政策"},{"start":607.651,"end":628.066,"text":"不用這麼客氣讓大家知道讓立委知道讓政府知道讓百姓知道我們國家往前走不是有些人說這樣不行這樣不能因為一些保守的觀念讓國家不能往前嘛是這個好嗎謝謝委員的這些的意見所以第一個齁三件事情這裡面有一件也是立法院的事情TISA這個賬戶齁這個增加退休準備齁那這個政策怎麼推大家可以多多討論是"},{"start":628.786,"end":656.511,"text":"律師這個部分當然現在律師在上個會期在我們立法院已經過不知道為什麼又有什麼問題沒有你們可能要主動去來因為我們這個投顧投信法已經修了給處委委員會好像有一些小問題不知道是什麼問題也許你們也對我們會來努力趕快讓他通過很多法令過了20年都永遠過不了這樣子其實產業界都會慢慢的對政府這個失去這個信心那我們說招攬國際人才來臺服務或是把我們臺灣在外面管臺灣人錢的人的那些人回來這個也是"},{"start":657.831,"end":672.951,"text":"大家繼續努力了以上謝謝委員鄭昭薇接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員陳廷輝委員、陳廷輝委員、陳廷輝委員不到黃國昌"}]}},{"id":"156319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adea2ae466dec99dd2667ff13663af3209ef293381db574b3e950b48a977d456e315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:05:47 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險也最高這部分未來對國有銀行有沒有相關的約束"},{"start":38.255,"end":53.968,"text":"其實我們在過去在比如說中國大陸地區的曝險我們一直都有獨立的監控比如說他們在做的一些的放款或是我們都有加壓就是比如說我們正常的壞帳提撥是1%在那邊就是要1.5%"},{"start":55.249,"end":75.291,"text":"這些其實上從過去的數字也看到其實他們也已經觀察到整個環境以及市場的轉移他們也開始下降這個部分已經蠻明顯的所以他們有注意到這個風險跟獲利的改變對不對對獲利其實不管它市場上面的風險如果最糟的狀況發生兩岸發生戰事這些銀行的分行如何自保"},{"start":76.953,"end":100.793,"text":"這個當然是一個非常極端的狀況那我們現在的話就是假設我們現在銀行的部分大概是將近9000多差不多一兆的這個負險在那邊那當然對銀行的比重現在差不多20%左右中國在真正的定義在國家安全定義是敵對國家他共經這個每天共經在那邊盤旋騷擾"},{"start":102.814,"end":130.985,"text":"所以你要為以籌謀雖然你說是極端的狀況但極端的狀況也可能隨時都會發生是這個部分其實我們剛才也跟文報他們現在整個整體曝險占他淨值的大概是20%左右其實我們在這個掌控的這一塊也希望盡量能夠降低這個曝險好您知道這個問題就好另外您這邊報告裡面第5頁壯世代金融相關措施"},{"start":133.428,"end":148.982,"text":"什麼叫壯士貸?這是一個跨黨派行政委員會陳時中政委所督導的壯士貸整體計畫我們負責壯士貸金融壯士貸現在的定義就是有兩種,一是50或55歲以上的人口50或55歲,你這個定義都還不清楚"},{"start":151.984,"end":175.443,"text":"就是現在原來是五十五嘛現在有人建議還要再把他往前一點為什麼要針對壯世代推出相關金融因為主要是根據未來人口結構的推估未來台灣可能在二三十年後這個世代的人會成為我們台灣的主要的壯世代他年紀會增加可能這個對就是以上的這些壯世代變六十歲以後也就是六十五歲以後都可能變壯世代就是希望"},{"start":176.224,"end":201.401,"text":"就是已經進入到幾乎是準退休的這些人接下來怎麼樣因應整個社會成為主流人口的時候我們整個因應怎麼做政策我是提醒主委政策就是不需要花中取寵政策是針對有需要有需要然後政策推出來是有的確有發揮這個金融相關的功能我想這部分才去推動當然另外我請教一下這個主委"},{"start":202.375,"end":230.78,"text":"政府官員去國外換會會不會受到特殊待遇據我所知應該不會不要說您部長安妮斯諸位你到北歐一個國家去不要說你出了機場你沒有當地貨幣你去換貨幣你會不會有特殊待遇因為我上任還沒出國過至少我以前經驗並沒有任何這樣有一個案例一個中央級的這個民意代表"},{"start":232.585,"end":253.487,"text":"去這個北歐國家北歐國家但是他不是用EUR你出了機場還有很多這個換錢的地方嘛然後他去換匯一換匯當然需要護照護照一看是PEP是一個就是我們講"},{"start":254.864,"end":272.474,"text":"重點那個防制的政治人物或是這些是不是有相關的規定是就是說剛剛跟我們報告我說我上任沒出國說不定我用我的名字假設是你出國去換會也會要求你是不是他會詢問你是不是政治人物對不對或者政府官員"},{"start":274.861,"end":296.722,"text":"他這樣就會可能會列為是反洗錢的重點他的資料會細緻到什麼程度這個部分的話就是因為我們在應該是資料是如何提供的是國際相關的協約還是這個這個議定會不會連配偶連家人你都知道連你的住所都知道"},{"start":298.604,"end":310.412,"text":"這個有沒有侵犯到各自各種程度啦至少比如說我們在據我了解啊他連配偶是誰都知道他連你住家在哪裡都知道他說你可以換但是你要提供證明"},{"start":312.05,"end":330.165,"text":"另外一個英文的證明說你的住所在哪裡這個可能是我們在國際反洗錢裡面的一個實務他認為這些所以你說這是國際反洗錢的實務任何國家只要是政府官員、民意代表、中央民代你去換會都要受到這種詢問"},{"start":331.626,"end":357.877,"text":"據我所知假設你被列入那個名單裡面的話就會多一些程序誰會列入那些名單現在有些機構會提供這樣一個名單給金融機構或是給其他參考那臺灣有哪些人列入這些名單其實我知道應該是我們政府的首長像比如說像各位委員應該也是假設我去他也會要求我提供相關資料嗎有可能因為我們成為這個身份是一個公開的資料"},{"start":359.138,"end":379.94,"text":"公開的資料如果他連配偶都知道那是肯定當別論比如說假設我這個人的人名跟我的身份還有我的基本配偶資料基本他會你有你的護照號碼對不對對或者你相關的這個工作的背景然後你可能有photo有相片他如果連配偶跟你的住所都知道"},{"start":381.82,"end":405.98,"text":"我覺得這個是可能要再去看看狀況,不過我知道曾經有人是因為同名而被匡列,就是他的名字是這樣,所以看他之外也可以去深度不可能同名又同日生嘛,剛剛已經到了那麼細緻的資料的部分您說的就是說只要中央級的明代政府官員,包括您要去國外換會都會接受相關"},{"start":407.945,"end":413.582,"text":"的詢問他可能會用進一步的瞭解對我講他那個那我們那個局長會不會"},{"start":417.093,"end":445.496,"text":"局長你會不會受到這種待遇因為你是主管人員報告委員因為我都不會在國外換匯我都用信用卡所以還沒碰到這個問題不過回覆委員的因為基本上重要性的政治人物其實他都有一定的公開性所以有很多銀行他會去買商業資料庫所以您剛剛說的那個應該是銀行或者是換匯的公司他不是單一國家"},{"start":447.678,"end":470.135,"text":"對,他是比對因為幾大商業庫應該全世界各個金融機構就是用那幾大商業資料庫那商業資料庫裡面會收集各國的政治重要性人物所以應該是比對那個資料庫出來他來要求是這樣,我說給您聽他說你要提供另外一個英文相關的文件證明你才能換匯"},{"start":472.503,"end":493.993,"text":"那誰會又帶其他的英文證明除了護照之外?確實如果臨時性大概不會去準備這個大概你現在去了解一下他所了解的資料會不會細緻到連配偶連你的住所都知道好,我們請主委跟局長研究完這個主委你以後去歡會搞不好你也會發聲"},{"start":497.67,"end":513.641,"text":"應該會在場所有的官員去換位你們試看看你們可能多準備一些這個國外的英文資料好謝謝謝謝委員的提供這個訊息謝謝志偉委員我想這個是一個非常珍貴的一個議題那請就是研究完了以後跟邱志偉委員來做報告謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156327","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156327","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adeef70aec23f87cb0d67ff13663af3209ef293381db574b3e97e402dd021e2a3415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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夠增加我們的觸及率跟覆蓋率的當然都是我們努力的方向只是說需要比如說剛剛委員有提醒到我們當然會朝這個方向去增加它的接觸跟覆蓋我是希望說未來我們在問的時候看到你們已經有這樣的做法那甚至是像你們金管會從2020年起有推動信託2.0這個信託計畫"},{"start":609.179,"end":629.892,"text":"那像這種我們看到2021、2022好像受益人數還有他的這個財產本金有停滯甚至下滑的現象我是不太曉得說其實這個對老人很好啊自應行的安養信託這種金融商品挺好的但是我們看到好像停滯不前甚至下滑是出了什麼問題嗎當然有"},{"start":631.713,"end":655.367,"text":"常常是因為一個制度推動以後呢達到一個比如說剛開始的需要的人很快的就做了那接下來可能下一波需要的人在哪裡我們要再重新調整方法或是調整訴求的對象或是改變我們的商品這些都是我們在持續在再來精進的一個觀察我們既然推這個活動我們當然希望能夠持續的往上走謝謝主委"},{"start":656.548,"end":680.974,"text":"我想金管會其實還是擔負著很重要的一些金融的責任那我們很希望針對這些高齡失智未來我們是超高齡社會化的來臨那我們特別希望說關於金融商品還有一些友善金融的推陳出新也希望金管會能夠繼續的來為我們加油當然這個跟每個人都有切身的這樣的感受我們會來努力"},{"start":681.734,"end":693.388,"text":"好,那也希望就是兩月內如果有相關的報告也可以提供辦公室一份好,謝謝主委、謝謝主席,一起加油那接著我們請邱志偉委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"16215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16215","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528eb2ea4a3bfaaca62b6425655b8120616f0202062f76816a17fe31ee8b6de4a1e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢。二、繼續審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)\t行政院函請審議「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。(二)\t本院委員羅明才等20人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)\t本院委員賴士葆等25人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。(四)\t本院委員伍麗華等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。(五)\t本院委員邱志偉等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」案。三、審查「證券交易稅條例」5案：(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「證券交易稅條例部分條文修正草案」。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】(二)\t本院委員林楚茵等19人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」案。(三)\t本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案」。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】(四)\t本院委員賴惠員等37人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」案。(五)\t本院委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案」。【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】四、審查金融監督管理委員會函送「延長調降當日沖銷交易稅之稅式支出評估報告」及「研商延長調降當沖交易證券交易稅實施期間」公聽會之會議紀錄案。五、討論中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案（含附屬單位預算及綜計表－營業及非營業部分）審查日程暨審查分配表草案。【10/30及10/31，兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-30T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T13:42:00+08:00","duration":18720,"影片長度":"05:12:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 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謝謝請問各位委員隊"},{"start":1911.157,"end":1925.968,"text":"請各位委員對上一次的議事錄有沒有異議好那本席在這裡報告在場的委員為主法定人數所以我們的議事錄暫不確定接著我們請議事人員先讀今日的議程"},{"start":1928.075,"end":1928.095,"text":"討論事項"},{"start":1947.102,"end":1967.147,"text":"一、繼續審查證券交易稅條例五案一、行政院罕見審議證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案案二、本院委員羅明財等二十人擬據證券交易稅條例第二條之二條文修正草案案三、本院委員賴思寶等二十人擬據證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案案四、本院委員"},{"start":1968.067,"end":1981.987,"text":"吳立華等19人拟據證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條調研修正常案五、本院委員邱志偉等19人拟據證券交易稅條例第十二條調研修正常案二、審查證券交易稅條例五案一、本院臺灣民眾黨黨團拟據"},{"start":1983.109,"end":2008.054,"text":"政見交易所條例部分條件修正長案本院委員林楚瑩等19人拟據政見交易所條例第二條之二條件修正長案本院委員李坤成等22人拟據政見交易所條例第二條之二條件修正長案本院委員賴慧媛等37人拟據政見交易所條例第二條之二及第十二條條件修正長案本院委員蔡奕宇等16人拟據政見交易所條例第二條之二及第十二條條件修正長案"},{"start":2010.214,"end":2032.224,"text":"金融監督管理委員會含送延長條件當日沖銷交易稅之稅市支出評估報告及延長條件當沖交易證券交易稅實施期間公聽會之會議紀錄案是討論中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案含附屬單位預算及仲計表營業及非營業部分審查日程及審查分配表查案宣導完畢"},{"start":2037.61,"end":2058.361,"text":"接著我們介紹在場委員吳秉瑞吳委員接著介紹與會的官員首先我們先介紹金管會主委彭主委我們綜合規劃處胡處長我們法律事務處林處長"},{"start":2073.761,"end":2096.645,"text":"國際業務處賴處長資訊服務處林處長秘書室張主任人事室任主任主計處我們的戴主任那政風室我們的陳主任"},{"start":2099.502,"end":2126.573,"text":"接著介紹我們銀行局莊局長還有證件取貨局我們的張局長保險局王局長檢察局童局長接著我們介紹中央存款保險股份有限公司董事長黃天牧黃董事長"},{"start":2129.233,"end":2155.583,"text":"還有我們的副董事長黃副總經理接著介紹我們的證交所我們的林修敏林董事長我們的總經理李愛玲總經理介紹我們的期貨交易所我們的吳志興董事長"},{"start":2159.278,"end":2184.166,"text":"還有我們的周建榮總經理那我們的集保中心我們的林秉輝董事長還有我們的陳德湘總經理櫃買中心我們的簡立中董事長還有陳立青總經理"},{"start":2188.208,"end":2212.796,"text":"接著介紹期貨交易中心我們的張董事長還有林總經理那證券期貨中心市場發展基金我們的張傳章董事長張立真總經理"},{"start":2218.22,"end":2240.33,"text":"好 再來介紹我們的聯合信用卡處理中心貴先榮董事長 謝謝還有我們的林棟良總經理還有我們的金融聯合徵信中心郭建忠董事長還有張國明總經理"},{"start":2246.424,"end":2273.724,"text":"臺灣金融研訓院代理院長林仲偉汽車交通交通事故特別補償基金我們的林榮宏總經理財團法人住宅地震保險基金我們的林松濟董事長還有我們的張嘉玲總經理"},{"start":2277.639,"end":2301.709,"text":"那我們的保險安定基金我們的史百達董事長接著再介紹我們的陳昌正總經理那保險事務發展中心代理董事長林松濟董事長對不起李松濟董事長還有我們的葉爾康總經理"},{"start":2308.018,"end":2323.645,"text":"接著介紹我們的金融消費評議中心董事長杜董事長我們的總經理羅總經理歡迎接著介紹我們法務部的參事林峰文參事"},{"start":2328.038,"end":2349.319,"text":"接下來我們繼續今日的議程我們先處理討論事項第4案再來進行金融監督管理委員會的業務報告跟處理討論事項第一跟第三案現在請議事人員先讀中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案含附屬單位預算及"},{"start":2351.444,"end":2358.242,"text":"總計表、營業及會營業的部分、審查日程及審查分配表的草案內容"},{"start":2360.734,"end":2381.072,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案含附屬單位預算及總計表營業及分營業部分審查日程草案工作項目中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案含附屬單位預算及總計表營業及分營業部分審查日程及審查分配表提報院會後院會將審查日程及審查分配表交付財政委員會並由議事處函達財政委員會入程113年113年11月5號星期二以前"},{"start":2388.238,"end":2415.223,"text":"財政委員會通案各委員會進行審查11月5日星期二以前各委員會進行審查公務預算部分11月6日星期三至11月28日星期四各委員會擬據公務預算部分之審查報告並送財政委員會匯總12月4日星期三以前各委員會進行審查附屬單位預算營業及分營業部分12月2日至12月26日星期四財政委員會核算匯總整理公務預算部分各委員會之審查報告並擬據審查總報告"},{"start":2417.643,"end":2437.501,"text":"12月5日星期四至12月10日星期二公共預算部分審查總報告送交印刷所附印12月11日星期三財政委員會舉行全體委員會議討論公共預算部分審查總報告並提報院會12月12日星期四各委員會擬據附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分之審查報告並送財政委員會匯總"},{"start":2439.182,"end":2461.324,"text":"12月31日 財政委員會合算會總整理各委員會附屬公務運算之審查報告並已據營業及非營業部分審查總報告後重加印刷所複印本項日程授權財政委員會視公務運算部分之院會協商及二、三讀各委員會實際審查進度及審查報告提送進行彈性調整114年3月14日 以前"},{"start":2463.866,"end":2484.341,"text":"財政委員會舉行全體委員會議討論附屬單位預算及非營業部分審查總報告並提報院會本項日程授權財政委員會市公務預算部分之院會協商及二、三讀各委員會實際審查進度及審查報告提送進行彈性調整114年3月14日星期五以前"},{"start":2484.901,"end":2504.457,"text":"遵命一、因庭會加蓋運會或其他影響總預算案審查時程之事由至本審查日程需配合順應時授權財政委員會修正並通行其他委員會製造二、各委員會對於所審查之公務、營業及分業預算若有提前審訊之部分請先將該部分之審查報告送財政委員會會長"},{"start":2507.031,"end":2524.321,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政務總預算案含附屬黨會預算及政績表營業及非營業部分審查分配表草案、審查委員會、內政委員會、審查機關別及款項別行政院、原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心、客家委員會及所屬、中央選舉委員會及所屬、大陸委員會"},{"start":2525.342,"end":2542.343,"text":"不當黨產處理委員會、內政部、國土管理署及所屬、警政署及所屬、中央警察大學、消防署及所屬、國家公民署及所屬、移民署、建築研究所、空中勤務總隊、海洋委員會、海巡署及所屬、海洋保育署、國家海洋研究院"},{"start":2543.404,"end":2568.392,"text":"費營業基金別、租業基金、營建建設基金、實施平均地權基金、援助民族狀活發展基金、特別收入基金、新住民發展基金、研發及產業訓除替代役基金、警察、消防、海巡、移民空警人員及協情民意安全基金、國家永續發展基金、海洋污染防治基金、信託基金、黃瑞景先生獎學基金、胡彥宗女士獎助學基金"},{"start":2568.812,"end":2575.78,"text":"在校學生獎學基金、成員獎學基金、留讀生先生警察子女獎學基金外交及國防委員會"},{"start":2577.196,"end":2605.807,"text":"外交部、領事事務局、外交及國際事務學院國防部、國防部所屬含國家安全局、僑務委員會、國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會作業基金、國軍生產及服務作業基金、國軍老舊建村改建基金、國防醫學院軍事教育基金、國軍退出役官兵安軍基金、恩賜基金、農民醫療作業基金、資本計劃基金、國軍營舍及設施改建基金、信託基金、裝售跟公益基金、受理捐贈"},{"start":2606.847,"end":2630.089,"text":"僑生獎助學金及監管地區僑民學校私資輔助基金經濟委員會、國家發展委員會、檔案管理局公民教育委員會、經濟部、產業發展署、國際貿易署、標準檢運局及所屬、智慧財產局、水利署及所屬、商業發展署、中小及新創企業署、產業園區管理局及所屬"},{"start":2630.689,"end":2641.442,"text":"地質調查及礦業管理中心、農運署、農業部、林業及自然保育署及所屬、農中發展及水土保持署及所屬、農業試驗所及所屬、林業試驗所、水產試驗所、蓄產試驗所及所屬、獸醫研究所、農業藥物試驗所、生物…"},{"start":2648.885,"end":2673.738,"text":"多樣性研究所、茶及飲料作業改良場、種苗改良繁殖場7個區域農業改良場、漁業署及所屬、動植物防疫檢疫署及所屬、農業金融署、農糧署及所屬、農田水域署、農業科技園區管理中心作業基金、行政院國家發展基金、經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、農業作業基金、農田水域作業基金、特別收入基金、離島建設基金"},{"start":2675.979,"end":2696.716,"text":"花東地區永續發展基金、促進轉型正義基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金、農業特別收入基金、反吐瓦斯基金、信託基金、農民退休基金、營業基金、臺安糖業公司、臺灣中油公司、臺灣電力公司、臺灣自來水公司、財政委員會"},{"start":2697.717,"end":2723.311,"text":"主席總處、審計部、審計部台北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部台中市審計處、審計部台南市審計處、審計部高雄市審計處、財政部、國庫署、負稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、公務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬、財政資訊中心、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":2724.672,"end":2750.041,"text":"銀行局、證券企業局、保險局、檢察局、直轄市及縣市政府、調整軍工教育人員待遇準備、災害準備金、第二預備金、融資財源調度、債務基金、中央政府債務基金、特別收入基金、金融監督管理基金、信託基金、保險業務發展基金、營業基金、中央銀行、含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠、中國輸出域銀行、臺灣金融控股公司、含臺灣銀行公司"},{"start":2751.864,"end":2754.813,"text":"臺銀人壽保險公司、臺銀綜合證券公司、臺灣土地"},{"start":2756.072,"end":2778.928,"text":"公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣煙酒公司、中央存款保險公司、交易及文化委員會、中央研究院、國立故宮博物院、核能安全委員會及所屬、教育部、國民及學前教育署、體育署、青年發展署、國家圖書館、國立公共資訊圖書館、國立教育廣播電台、國家教育研究院、文化部、文化資產局、影視及流行音樂產業局、國立傳統藝術中心、國立臺灣美術館及所屬、"},{"start":2782.831,"end":2799.706,"text":"國立臺灣工業研究發展中心、國立臺灣博物館、國立臺灣史前文化博物館、國家人權博物館、國立臺灣歷史博物館、國立臺灣文學館、國家科學及技術委員會、新竹科學園區管理局、中部科學園區管理局、南部科學園區管理局"},{"start":2800.487,"end":2824.35,"text":"作業基金、47所國立大學校務基金、國立臺灣大學輻射醫院作業基金、國立臺灣大學輻射醫院、國立成功大學輻射醫院作業基金、國立陽明交通大學輻射作業基金、交易部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基金、科學園區管理局作業基金、國立文化機構作業基金、故宮文物藝術發展基金"},{"start":2826.038,"end":2849.288,"text":"特別稅務基金、中央研究院科學研究基金、行政院國家科學技術發展基金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級以上學校退場基金、核子事故緊急應備基金、文化發展基金、交通委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家運輸安全調查委員會、公共工程委員會、交通部、民用航空局、中央氣象署、"},{"start":2851.169,"end":2869.416,"text":"觀光署及所屬、運輸業研究所、公路局及所屬、鐵道局及所屬、韓港局、數位發展部、自動安全署、數位產業署、作業基金、交通作業基金、特別收入基金、韓港建設基金、通訊傳播監督管理基金、有限廣播電視、事業發展基金"},{"start":2870.676,"end":2884.553,"text":"營業基金、中華郵政公司、國營臺灣鐵路公司、臺灣港務公司、韓臺灣港務港勤公司、高雄港區土地開發公司、桃園國際機場公司、司法及法治委員會、總統府、國家安全會議、國使館、國使館臺灣文獻館"},{"start":2887.136,"end":2916.436,"text":"人事行政總署公務人力發展學院立法院司法院最高法院最高行政法院臺北高等行政法院臺中高等行政法院高雄高等行政法院懲戒法院法官學院智慧財產及商業法院臺灣高等法院及4個分院20個臺灣地區地方法院臺灣高雄少年及家事法院福建高等法院金門分院福建金門地方法院福建連江地方法院考試院考選部全區部公務人員"},{"start":2917.256,"end":2946.616,"text":"保障基域培訓委員會國家文官學院及所屬公務人員退休輔助基金管理局監察院法務部司法官學院法醫研究所廉政署矯正署及所屬行政執行署及所屬最高檢查署臺灣高等檢查署及4個檢查分署臺灣高等檢查署智慧財產檢查分署20個臺灣地區地方檢查署福建高等檢查署金門檢查分署福建金門檢查地方檢查署福建廉價地方檢查署調查局"},{"start":2947.236,"end":2962.252,"text":"作業基金、房屋部矯正機關作業基金、考選業務基金、特別收入基金、毒品防治基金、信託基金、中央公教人員極限救助基金、公務人員退休輔具基金、公務人員個人專務制退輔儲金基金"},{"start":2963.908,"end":2987.793,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境委員會勞動部勞工保險局勞動力發展署及所屬職業安全衛生署勞動基金應用局勞動及職業安全衛生研究所衛生福利部疾病管制局食品藥物管理署中央健康保險署國民健康署社會及家庭署國家中醫藥研究所環境部氣候變遷署資源循環署"},{"start":2988.613,"end":3006.336,"text":"化學物質管理署、環境管理署、國家環境研究院、作業基金、勞工保險局作業基金、醫療藥品基金、管制藥品製藥工廠作業基金、全民健康保險基金、國民年金保險基金、特別收入基金、就業安定基金、衛生福利特別收入基金、環境保護基金"},{"start":3006.997,"end":3019.411,"text":"信託基金、勞工退休基金救治勞工退休基金新制積欠工資墊長基金支援回收管理基金信託基金部分清潔對人執行職務死亡記住基金備註"},{"start":3021.994,"end":3048,"text":"第一屆中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條規定嚴密並配合中央政府各機關組織變動予以調整二、中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案稅率部分行政院向下有關一、行政院國家發展基金剩餘繳庫部分由經濟委員會審查二、中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分由財政委員會審查三、外交部、國防部及僑務委員會主管機密預算部分由外交及國防委員會舉行祕密會議進行審查"},{"start":3051.668,"end":3077.479,"text":"好 謝謝 那個我們現在先補充介紹到現場的林德虎林委員那請問各位委員對中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案含附屬單位預算及總計表營業及非營業的部分審查日程及審查分配表草案有沒有意義"},{"start":3079.495,"end":3103.5,"text":"無異議我們就召喚通過提報宴會因為本案要配合宴會議程的一個需要請議事人員盡速將本案提報宴會"},{"start":3106.857,"end":3134.783,"text":"那請各位委員對於上一次議事錄有沒有異議好那議事錄確定接著本次會議安排一、金融管理監督委員會進行業務報告二、繼續審查行政院函請審議證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文的修正草案等五案三、審查一、本院、臺灣民眾黨"},{"start":3138.031,"end":3156.344,"text":"黨團凝聚證券交易稅法條例部分條文修正草案一案二本院委員林楚英等19人委員李坤成等22人分別凝聚證券交易稅條例第二條之二"},{"start":3157.863,"end":3173.334,"text":"條文修正草案兩案本院委員賴慧妍等37人委員蔡玉儀等16人分別凝聚證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第12條條文修正草案兩案"},{"start":3174.975,"end":3201.096,"text":"是金融監督管理委員會委員含送延長條件當日沖銷交易稅的稅室支出評估報告及延長條件當沖交易稅交易證券交易稅法實施的一個期間公聽會的一個會議記錄那我們現在請金融管理監督委員會彭主委進行"},{"start":3202.258,"end":3206.43,"text":"業務及稅事支出的一個評估及公聽會會議記錄的一個報告那個彭主委請"},{"start":3214.286,"end":3233.916,"text":"主席、各位委員、媒體先進大家早安陳貴文會邀請緊究國內金融概況及本會重點工作提出報告進行指教一、有關國內金融概況部分截至8月底銀行全體的稅後盈餘為4,080億元證券商等為1,058億保險業為3,054億金融商業較去年同期增加2,595億銀行"},{"start":3243.681,"end":3248.989,"text":"截至113年6月底平均資本市足利為14.79餘放比為0.15%受信品質良好具相當金融韌性保險業總資產36兆8400餘"},{"start":3259.884,"end":3268.347,"text":"議員較去年同期增加1兆1577億元平均受險資本市足利為318.9%產險業為481.06%證券市場截至9月底國內上市會公司加數為1852家總市值為77.74兆元成交值為88.97兆元截至9月3日上漲23.95"},{"start":3285.802,"end":3309.431,"text":"二、未來重點工作事項一、強化金融資本韌性及風險監理主要工作包括一、推動保險業接軌國際會計制度及在地化資本制度並將於今年底發布第四階段調適措施二、修正發布保險業計算自由資本方式開放成立特定目的公司國外籌資"},{"start":3310.831,"end":3329.84,"text":"三、增訂人身保險業外匯價格準備金強化資本發布銀行自由資本及風險性資產之計算方法及說明完成銀行流動性風險管理自律規範發布金融業導入零信任架構參考指引二、健全金融市場紀律與公司治理主要工作包括一、推動銀行"},{"start":3331,"end":3346.92,"text":"建立責任地圖制度強化指數股票型基金ETF之監理將強化資訊揭露、廣告行銷、市場風險控管等三方向強化公發公司、證券期貨及服務事業之內部控制制度"},{"start":3348.294,"end":3359.744,"text":"三、落實消費者權益保護與普惠金融將積極推動各項防詐措施協助訂定保險契約強制執行並修改保險法"},{"start":3361.238,"end":3377.534,"text":"推動壯世代金融商品措施推動信託2.0第二階段計畫持續落實公平代課相關作為四、推動亞洲資產管理中心並已於上週四進行專案報告主要推動概述如下一、推動財富管理業務推動計畫"},{"start":3379.84,"end":3394.89,"text":"推動本國投信壯大計畫逐步改善私募基金發展環境推動股市壯大計畫擴大證券商業務範圍鼓勵保險業投資國內公建及策略性等相關措施"},{"start":3396.131,"end":3424.02,"text":"加速金融科技創新與金融服務將於明年增設金融市場與發展創新處我們也支持數位金融發展嚴定虛擬資產管理專法預計於明年的6月前將專法送至行政院提升自動化投顧服務法律的位階發布金融業申請業務示範作業要點放寬金融業創新業務示範範圍鼓勵金融業與國內外金融科技業者合作示範"},{"start":3425.06,"end":3450.645,"text":"三、評估調整金融監理沙盒機制七、研議現實世界RWA代幣化後續將以債券、基金為標的研議推動事宜八、研議開放金融業辦理虛擬資產保管業務並舉辦相關主題式的業務事辦九、發布金融業運用人工智慧AI指引鼓勵金融機構發展金融科技專利技術並提供授權"},{"start":3452.325,"end":3463.95,"text":"六、落實永續金融驅動低碳轉型主要工作如下一、強化永續揭露規範二、完成本國銀行辦理氣候變遷情境分析作業規劃"},{"start":3465.569,"end":3490.348,"text":"三、發布金融業房票率參考指引四、公布第三屆永續金融評鑒指標五、發布綠色及轉型金融行動方案六、研議發布第二階段永續經濟活動認定參考指引七、擴大永續發展債券市場規模八、建置淨值治理報告數位平台及ESG數位平台建置產制永續報告書功能預計114年正式上線"},{"start":3493.49,"end":3516.545,"text":"有關延長調降當日沖銷交易稅之稅事支出評估報告等部分本會於今年的3月29日召開公聽會與會學者及證交所等單位建議當沖降稅延長實施行政院於9月12日審議通過延長三年財政部於9月26日覆評通過本案稅事支出評估報告"},{"start":3517.286,"end":3523.561,"text":"本會議於9月30日正式將上開稅事支出報告及公聽會會議含送大院併案審查"},{"start":3525.334,"end":3551.012,"text":"為建立安全與發展並進的金融市場本會將循序依本報告所提六大重要施政面向持續強化金融韌性、健全市場秩序保護消費者權益及落實普惠金融打造臺灣成為具有臺灣特色的亞洲資產管理中心推動金融科技發展等五策略亦透過綠色轉型金融行動方案引導帶動產業永續發展"},{"start":3553.683,"end":3579.495,"text":"以上報告若未盡上期委員提供寶貴建議指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝好謝謝主委現在開始詢答先做以下的一個宣告每位出席的委員花言時間是8分鐘必要的時候都延長2分鐘每位列席的委員花言的時間是5分鐘那我們今天上午10點截止登記花言"},{"start":3580.555,"end":3591.497,"text":"那本日會議的委員若有相關的一個修正的一個動議請敬送主席台收件現在我們依登記的一個順序請登記第一位林德虎委員質詢"},{"start":3613.096,"end":3628.788,"text":"是不是請金融監督管理委員會彭主委主委請委員長主委你好主委我請教因為對於台新金、中信金、騎搶星光金"},{"start":3633.94,"end":3640.803,"text":"媒體報導是合意對上非合意的併購圖顯併購法規不足並且表示金管會將檢討"},{"start":3650.866,"end":3662.437,"text":"這個金控轉投資的管理辦法以下我想有幾個問題要請教彭主委據了解金管會似乎要研擬提高公開收購門檻那公開收購才"},{"start":3667.182,"end":3689.901,"text":"這個全部都現金是否納入法規等兩大方向依據明年上半年來出爐那我請問主委併購法規嚴謹會不會增加金融機構大型化的困難度是報告委員我想這個有關金融機構的整併還有金控的整併其實上都是我們國人關切的議題"},{"start":3690.862,"end":3707.647,"text":"那從這次的案件裡面我們也看到上一次的委員會裡面也有委員說我們現在的金空投資管理辦法裡面有些文字上面並不是很明確的部分比如說剛才提到是否要調高我們從原來的所謂的那個公開收購的門檻"},{"start":3708.817,"end":3734.324,"text":"那確實我們從這裡看到假設說我們今天在整個金融市場整併上面的話如果在一個沒有一個公司這個民主程序完備的情況之下確實比較容易產生這樣的一個看法所以我們正在研議是否就是說根據這次的案例我們能夠來把這些很多的法規把它明確化然後也把它按照我們國內實際的需要我想"},{"start":3734.884,"end":3755.812,"text":"我們支持金融這個優良診病的立場並沒有改變那你認為要是如果不會那請告訴本席理由如果會的話換句話說是不是會造成國內金融業未來這個走向國際化、多元化、創新化接近這個牛部化會不會"},{"start":3756.412,"end":3784.107,"text":"其實不會啊其實若委員有注意觀察其實國內從假設我們以金控開放20年這個歷史來看其實我們臺灣整個透過這套制度整個金融機構的規模、實力還有他們的運轉的體質都有很明顯的變化而且如果看我們現在金融機構不管是新南向或是向全世界擴展我們其實金融業的競爭力正在強化中當然我們還是希望我們的金融業能夠有"},{"start":3784.907,"end":3796.656,"text":"在國際上更有競爭力的實例銀行局莊局長表示在這次中信金公開收購星光經驗來看過去調降公開收購門檻從25%降到10%可能會造成金融市場的紛爭"},{"start":3811.368,"end":3839.642,"text":"有必要這個朝調升這個方向來檢討那我請問主委這個拉高公開收購門檻是不是降低金融市場紛爭維護金融市場秩序的不二法門當然維護市場秩序是多面向的但是股權如果說能夠在達到一定的控制力的時候當然去整合公司的意見整合這樣一個股東的意見是有"},{"start":3840.222,"end":3855.834,"text":"是有絕對的幫助所以當我們一個股權若說此股不夠達到一個具有控制力的時候我想確實在未來在經營的爭議上我們可以看到非常多的案例這是我們比較顧慮的地方那個主委因為收購門檻多年來經過速度調升調降"},{"start":3859.156,"end":3875.141,"text":"後你認為收購門檻到底應該定調比較好還是這個要為了具備英式力導的特性採取態度來調整還是有必要"},{"start":3876.781,"end":3899.346,"text":"這個主委您請說明當然所有制度都應該要根據環境的改變但是很多基本的精神並不會變化比如說我從開始金控法開始設立開始我就參與這個我非常清楚知道金控公司設立的當時的本意是希望能夠擴大金融的整合然後能夠透過異業的結合產生經營上的中效"},{"start":3899.986,"end":3920.903,"text":"其中很明顯的在從他立法架構下面大部分都是以合議為基礎的合併跟收購我想這個過去當然是有很多政策上的改變但我們也發現到就是說實際上經過這20年的實驗我們發現說還是有一些基本的精神必須維持所以我覺得我們還是會回到比如說當初金控法的架構上面來執行"},{"start":3922.52,"end":3942.788,"text":"主委,非合意併購收購門檻提高收購方式以現金為主在這次新興併購可能會成為未來非合意併購的依循模式基於金融併購不排除非合意併購"},{"start":3943.968,"end":3957.508,"text":"的情況請問主委對於非合意併購之公司董事行為的義務以及所採的防疫措施之司法性金管會是不是也應該要考量來納入明確的規範"},{"start":3960.171,"end":3983.921,"text":"才能真正發揮經營的效率並且實質保障公司股東以及利害關係人的權利你認為要修這個行政法規還是法律你認為呢?謝謝委員剛剛提到的幾個重點比如說我們要兼顧各方利害關係人以及就是說我們必須要明確這些的規定我都非常的贊同"},{"start":3984.941,"end":4010.12,"text":"那其實剛才我們的評估是目前是可以在可能法規需要修改但是法律現在是沒有必要修改那未來就是朝著修法規對,我們很多的授權的這些的命令跟執法我們可以來隨著我們現在市場的運作的環境來調整這樣喔,麥德主委金管會統計今年9月底本國銀行對新南向"},{"start":4011.121,"end":4013.903,"text":"18國換款的餘額一兆7787億元那月增107億那累計前9月新增換款量"},{"start":4026.562,"end":4046.261,"text":"這個1932億那媒體報導在美國啟動降息的循環新南向經濟動向穩定兩大利多助攻下那本國銀行全年新增換款量可望這個突破就是2000億元的大關那對照本國銀行在新南向"},{"start":4047.702,"end":4067.977,"text":"這個國家經濟發展下換款額度的成長請問主委你認為政府6年內打造的亞洲資產管理中心有哪些條件比這些發展中國家更具有吸引力能夠讓金管會流財財是財產的財百分之百達標你認為呢"},{"start":4071.959,"end":4100.452,"text":"謝謝委員指正剛剛委員提到一個非常重要就是說剛剛委員第一個題目就是說臺灣的那個金融業市場競爭力可以從這次的新南向的發展還有向全世界國際上的擴張可以看得出來當然比如說臺灣的金融業的實力可以在其他地方發揮我們是非常樂觀其成剛剛委員也提到就是說臺灣相較於這些南向的國家有何相對的這些競爭優勢我想我在上一次的委員會的時候也有做一些說明就是第一個"},{"start":4101.132,"end":4125.263,"text":"台灣確實在民間財富還有就是我們國際我們台灣的多面向的產業有競爭力的產業上還是有很具有一些優勢我覺得我們推動各項措施能夠留住本國人的財富交由本國的金融機構來管理我覺得這是應該是一個很正確的方向主委啊不是本席說不看好更不是要唱衰政府的政策因為在"},{"start":4127.283,"end":4148.651,"text":"政治穩定及稅制優惠等優勢下新加坡不斷吸引全球富豪的資金紛紛湧進甚至於臺資銀行在新加坡的換款及存款比重都明顯成長"},{"start":4152.192,"end":4176.826,"text":"對此對比這個留財就是財產的財留在臺灣卻要面臨不定時而且不間斷地緣的壓力我想地緣壓力您看很清楚這個選擇資產外移反而能兼具高獲利和分散風險那我請問主委試著站在國內富豪的角度你認為這些有錢人會怎麼選呢"},{"start":4178.652,"end":4192.812,"text":"包委員我想上次提到這個主題的時候我也提到我們的分析就是說其實上對一個資產或資金而言它的投資有多面向那它的考慮點有多面向當然比如說陳儒向新加坡、香港以資金運動為主的"},{"start":4193.673,"end":4220.242,"text":"這些金融中心有它的優勢但是我剛才跟委員報告過其實臺灣有非常好的投資機會還有就是我們本國未來的不管我們的資本市場還有很多的其他市場的發展我覺得都具有吸引力我們是希望適合臺灣的資金我們並不是說完全要把比如說那個各式各樣的資金都要留在臺灣因為資金的需求跟目的是多面向的我們是希望發揮我們的優勢吸引我們可以吸引的資金留在臺灣"},{"start":4220.842,"end":4236.62,"text":"那個主委啊因為成立亞洲資產管理中心人才的培育、養成以及穩定性是絕對性那有網友發現新加坡招募啊這個洗碗工喔這個月薪高達那個薪波"},{"start":4238.862,"end":4255.02,"text":"新加坡波幣3,250元差不多折合新台幣差不多7萬9千多差不多8萬塊左右相比臺灣薪資物價環境我請問主委薪資過低的情況人才都沒有辦法留住了你認為"},{"start":4256.662,"end":4271.219,"text":"錢財又憑什麼能夠留住還是你認為我們資產管理中心的薪資結構應該和國內薪資環境脫鉤必須有相當程度的差異這樣才能夠和其他國家一較高下的機會"},{"start":4271.9,"end":4300.794,"text":"所以剛剛委員的那指正是我也最近有看到一些節目介紹臺灣的年輕人到新加坡工作的這些的那個分析但是呢他們其實也有反映說其實雖然薪水高但是生活成本也非常的高而且他們也有說若有機會的話臺灣有機會他還是願意留在臺灣所以我剛才講我們推出了很多計畫比如說大股市計畫、大投信計畫這些我們都希望我們的金融業趕快趕快的成長起來提供更好的機會留住我們的年輕人"},{"start":4301.474,"end":4328.745,"text":"當然我認為留財是很重要那因為我一直最近在觀察其實現在很多年輕人很麻煩因為他們你看跑那個就是做服務業Uber、Uber E甚至於這個反正只要這個有技術的方面他們都不去學那幾乎都是服務業所以說現在很缺工到處缺工而且非常非常的嚴重"},{"start":4330.333,"end":4344.521,"text":"你各行各業都缺工那這個就是跟我們當初整個教改以後衍生出很多的問題出來當初很多職業學校都匯除了結果都讀高中讀大學讀到最後"},{"start":4345.521,"end":4369.787,"text":"你到學以後他們要學技術沒有了啦這是很嚴重的問題所以說現在喔到處缺工啦而且技術工喔越來越嚴重啊你請國外的進來這個也是有很多的問題啊我想我這些做您的參考啦因為這個未來應該要去重視啦是謝謝委員的指正謝謝好謝謝德國委員接著我們請吳秉瑞委員質詢"},{"start":4385.083,"end":4405.846,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會彭主委好請彭主委委員長主委今年9月你有在虛擬資產專法制定進程的報告是揭示說有四個階段其中研究團隊9月底提出期末報告"},{"start":4406.727,"end":4425.159,"text":"提出了嗎提出來了有符合你們的需求嗎我們正在研議相關的內容其實我們在整個專案的過程當中不是等他的報告出來才跟他討論我們整個過程我們的同仁全程參與一起跟我們這些專家老師們一起討論我們現在已經草案大概有初步的架構"},{"start":4425.953,"end":4451.058,"text":"不是自然也要舉辦公聽會嗎對接下來我們排定我們內部先做好我們的公聽會會在明年初開始一系列開始進行公聽未來的即6月報給行政院草案專訪就是我們現在包括我們現在去跟相關的這個關係團體討論的時候已經開始在對未來公聽去做做這樣的預先的討論我想我們會按照我們所承諾的時間一定會"},{"start":4453.038,"end":4478.268,"text":"按照6月前把我們的定稿送進行政院因為美國現在在大選再一個禮拜就投票了是的看起來川普當選的機會蠻大的當然川普的政策上面他對這個虛擬貨幣的虛擬資產他是採取比較開放的政策是的所以這個是不是會造成影響所以我們的速度上面是不是應該要如果能的話要盡量加快那個"},{"start":4479.128,"end":4481.15,"text":"現在有26家VSP的這個記者在公會裡面那你對他們的這些"},{"start":4500.049,"end":4520.826,"text":"能夠來參加的他的條件跟他的一些他的這個有沒有什麼樣的限制我們現在對於他們現在是我們第一個很重要要把他們分類因為他們不同的種類大小差很多對大小還有他們做的內容比如說有些是交易平台就我們習慣的交易所有些只是一個交換商有些只是保管商那其實他們的"},{"start":4521.647,"end":4525.728,"text":"主要是要花很多時間在這上面要去思考因為畢竟未來它會直接影響到我們的市場那目前這26家有沒有什麼樣子的"},{"start":4539.966,"end":4568.068,"text":"除了NEXT什麼抓捕嗎還是都沒有都很好其實我們今年還會再對他們進行更多的檢查因為我們其實上已經開始對檢查我們也提出了他們過去一些相關的這些的缺失那如果說待會如果我可以允許我可以請檢察局長跟您報告一下最近他們大概查到有些什麼大概比較一般性的問題然後大概我們這個部分因為我們也非常謹慎我們陸續也會按照我們的表定計畫加大我們查核的範圍"},{"start":4568.851,"end":4595.119,"text":"另外我是要求一項就是我們要注意這裡面有沒有中資的資本混入所以我們在審查的時候呢我們一向都有相關部門因為會有一些會偷渡到其他的那個避稅天堂或是轉到別的地方的資產其他的國家去然後再進來臺灣因為有很多背後會被懷疑有中資的立場像之前在美國被罰的那個不是"},{"start":4596.348,"end":4616.699,"text":"就是他的幕後老闆其實是一個中國人嗎?確實有這個案例,對而且罰金很重,我們也要注意防範這些事情我們其實對這個包圍,其實我們對這個都,因為其實我們對這個只要是境外的申請,我們大概都會有一定的程序,我們會高度的關注這個議題"},{"start":4617.913,"end":4642.752,"text":"目前都是主要靠26家的自己自律工會自己自律現在這一階段的部分我們現在除了這個自律我們現在馬上要實施的就是11月30號公告的那個登記制那就是另外一個更具有法律強制力的管控措施那現階段還沒有生效之前確實現在是靠自律規範還有就是我們相關的指引在進行"},{"start":4643.578,"end":4659.294,"text":"那你剛剛講檢察局那邊說有些案例,但是那個會不會佔用很久的時間啊?你有沒有簡單說明一下?各位委員報告,我們今年大概會對6家的RESP去做相關的精檢那已經從11月開始就會陸陸續續排定"},{"start":4660.794,"end":4686.553,"text":"我剛剛講是說有沒有什麼問題不是說你要那個在112年我們精簡的過程裡面我們最主要發現有四大類型的一個缺失包括他沒有去落實他的KYC那還有交易的監控事實上是不足的那另外呢也有發現他留存交易紀錄的部分是沒有很完備那最後一個部分他是各自保護的問題那沒有做的很落實大概有這四大類的缺失好謝謝喔"},{"start":4688.214,"end":4712.324,"text":"黃志偉這樣聽起來還是有很多的問題啊對他是一個行業所以你光靠自律是不行的對所以我們接下來就11月30號那個就是我們那個打造專法通過以後有關洗錢那一塊登記制那實際上這會很強那我們在專法的時候呢我們除了剛才講是行為的管理我們接下來就進入到機構的管理這部分就會更有系統性更明確化的規範"},{"start":4713.865,"end":4740.079,"text":"臺灣這26家大小不一但是就算最大的在世界看起來還是很小所以其實這個虛擬資產的交易目前主要是在國際上面那因為國際現在有一些比較大的交易平台你的希望就你主觀的想法你是希望如果他在臺灣有做交易主動要求他要來臺灣設據點對交易人比較有保障你比較能監管還是你是被動開放他們來"},{"start":4742.061,"end":4764.1,"text":"這個他們來希望他們主動來跟你表達落地你再來管理他們你是希望是要主動要求還是要被動的開放呢其實確實喔這個虛擬資產的交易是全球的因為它是在網路上進行我們當然希望一些良質優質的這些業者能夠來臺灣我們能夠在我們的法律規範下這可以保護更多的國人"},{"start":4764.72,"end":4783.425,"text":"但是通常這個會兩難假設我那定很嚴的話他其實上就直接這是一個自由交易的這樣一個過程但是我們也透過其他宣導的方式我們也不會說因為說你在海外就是這樣畢竟我們對國人而言我希望你在我們可以管轄的範圍之內進行這個交易所以你的宣導方式跟上因為網路無國界"},{"start":4784.345,"end":4803.543,"text":"你要虛擬說如果這些國際的大的交易平台在臺灣能落地那你在臺灣落地之後你要本身如果臺灣的國人有投資的需求在上面做這些虛擬市場的買賣你比較能夠獲得保障至少臺灣的法律可以保障你是不是應該要多做這一方面的宣傳那如果在這方面的宣傳的時候還是回到剛剛的問題啊"},{"start":4805.585,"end":4823.866,"text":"這個比較多國人在使用的平台你會主動要求他落地還是被動的他願意落地你再開放他再來審查他這兩種態度不一樣喔是,是委員講的沒有錯就說實際上因為我們當然假設第一個是我們主動邀請一個就是我們就是被動的篩選"},{"start":4824.967,"end":4852.014,"text":"這是兩個其實我們還是站在一個優質就是說我們通常過去在對開放的時候我們比較少去主動去邀請人家因為他是看臺灣有這個市場我們基於一個監管單位我們會嚴格的看他是否具備條件但是原則上我們還是希望說能夠在我們的管轄之下因為國人畢竟還是大部分在我們管轄他比較高的信任我們也比較容易一些保護措施比較容易給予這些人"},{"start":4852.874,"end":4872.294,"text":"我舉個例子公用計程車UBER那以前本來在臺灣他不願意落地後來政府要求他落地所以這個東西要考慮這個第二個將來如果越來越多人投資這個領域之後你希望的是讓他們分散自己個別在這邊公司交易還是要集中有交易所"},{"start":4873.415,"end":4900.752,"text":"這個交易所公部門公權力要介入的範圍到哪裡如何讓它公式公信能夠公開那如何政府在這個交易裡面以後可以收到一部分的稅金這個事業你們也要考慮在內這個確實是我們在內部討論的重點因為確實我們覺得說未來市場的發展我們不是只看這26家我們是考慮到國際的競爭以及臺灣這個產業未來要怎麼樣定位跟發展所以剛才委員剛才提到了有沒有辦法大型化"},{"start":4902.113,"end":4928.307,"text":"可以把它更規範化這件事情對市場秩序這是確實我們在考慮的重點也謝謝委員的提醒我覺得這個要考慮在內因為這個東西既然已經是國際化你如果能夠拉回到本土落地然後在臺灣能夠有比較好的交易的這些規範甚至讓政府也可以抽到稅對臺灣、對投資人都是一件好事所以這個都是必須要考慮的謝謝你願意納入考慮我現在提一個個案"},{"start":4929.307,"end":4949.447,"text":"最近期貨公會對於那個70歲以上的人你們說這個70歲以上的那個投資以前你只有同意專業投資人跟一定的資產以上的那就等於等同認為他是專業投資人才可以做70歲以上這個期貨的投資嘛那你現在把這個解禁了讓一般70歲以上的年紀的大的人"},{"start":4950.526,"end":4975.088,"text":"因為會去通知期貨有時候不是只有他自己主動意願有時候是被動、被邀約、被廣告拉進來那年紀大的人70歲以上如果他沒有這方面的專業能力那你以後都光靠這些自律光靠這些期貨商的自律這樣子有辦法嗎你認為這樣子的政策是對的嗎"},{"start":4977.249,"end":5005.062,"text":"確實陳主委員提醒的就是我們過去在基於一個就是說用一個年齡做一個區分那其實我們也觀察到了當然年齡當然是一個集體的表徵但是其實很多人他其實在某個年齡以上比如65歲以上他其實並沒有在很多地方並沒有衰但是我們在政策上卻不做任何的區分一律予以這個排除我想在一個金融的這樣的服務上面我們也是非常的"},{"start":5006.703,"end":5034.199,"text":"這個審慎的拿捏我們只是說要求我們的這些業者不要以完全以年齡作為區分比如70歲以上就完全不准做任何事情我希望他們更…不是喔他原來的政策是70歲以上你如果原來就是專業的投資人你本身就有撤足到這個期貨這個領域或是你的資產到達一定的規模因為你那麼大的資產你來投資應該是比較相信你會有審慎的考慮嘛是本來不是不准"},{"start":5035.22,"end":5058.405,"text":"是有條件的准許但是你現在變成完全由這個交易的這個來這個KYC來認識客戶然後由工會這邊來處理讓證券商來處理證券商當然希望能夠做越多生意越好但是這時候你要注意有沒有受到邀約引誘然後投到這個領域裡面來他對這個東西是不了解"},{"start":5059.085,"end":5083.678,"text":"不是那麼了解的人突然之間進到這個領域裡面來他能夠好好的處理嗎沒錯這是我們監理官應該做的我們剛剛講說我們其實最簡單的做法就是幾歲以上禁止其實上我覺得這個在未來比如說我們高齡化社會來到的時候我覺得我們就要更細緻的考慮剛剛委員提醒我覺得我會請我們同仁不會是以這個就是特別是未來有些不當交易的這些部分我們會好好來做這個把關"},{"start":5084.679,"end":5112.385,"text":"那不然另外一個要求就是說如果是這樣子的話被你用客戶認識客戶的人自己他們這個期貨上自己去處理的話那如果有違規的話你是不是要加很多倍的重罰對,如果有不當的這個勸誘誘引的話不適合沒有落實KYC因為我在這邊13年了我們非常多次的金融風暴都是期限的監管不到後來沒有想到那麼多或是比較自由化就有人就利用這樣的漏洞"},{"start":5113.005,"end":5124.073,"text":"產生了問題之後集體化之後就變政治問題這個是要先考量在前面謝謝委員提醒我想這部分我們剛剛局長也聽到了他應該回去我們會來趕快來研究這個問題好謝謝你謝謝委員的提醒謝謝好謝謝秉瑞委員接著我們請賴思寶委員質詢"},{"start":5141.529,"end":5165.41,"text":"謝謝主席議席各位先進有請就位的彭主委好請彭主委委員早辛苦了主委我們看到這兩天川普他一副要當勛的樣子現在看起來民調對他越來越不利但是昨天你放了一個炮"},{"start":5167.267,"end":5187.534,"text":"講說 又講第二次喔 說臺灣偷了他的美國的晶片業這個 他這話一講啊 昨天台積電就暴跌啊臺灣的股市也暴跌到今天回來了 然後 這個話 我就請問你啊"},{"start":5189.683,"end":5199.714,"text":"現在來講的話如果川普當選是不是對我們的晶片業比如半導體乃至於科技業非常不利會不會"},{"start":5201.355,"end":5224.714,"text":"先跟委員抱歉一下我不是個股市分析師對於這個事件其實我們有非常密切的關注包括我們有跟我們兩個交易所還有我們旗局的同仁都有密集的去研商相關不管任何結果的發生我們的資本市場應該如何因應相關的一些作為"},{"start":5226.695,"end":5250.594,"text":"這個都是有可能的那個結果的話我們都應該想像一下就陳儒剛剛委員指正就說昨天那個只是一個新聞然後就這樣但是我覺得市場還是有他理性的一面就是說他當然消息的衝擊難免但是覺得假設真的是有他實質的支撐我覺得還是會回歸到他真實的狀況可是為什麼消息我們都知道嘛"},{"start":5252.194,"end":5280.481,"text":"這個股市的消息面他一定是為什麼變成一個重大影響他變政策啊川普當選的話那機率越來越高看起來他當選的話他對臺灣來講的話他就要把晶片業通通到美國設廠對臺灣來講的話他一直在修理臺灣的晶片業那倒不是利空當然是利空啊而且利空不會出境啊他當選你要利空才開始的"},{"start":5282.842,"end":5293.99,"text":"那這樣講你同意嗎因為我剛跟文抱歉就是我們今晚會倒不會是針對這個我們是針對整體市場的沒有啊這整體市場啊這產業我不跟你講股市我只跟你講對產業的衝擊"},{"start":5296.827,"end":5319.685,"text":"對 就是說確實我想從我們從整個我們這個對資本市場一些的訊息的監控裡面這樣那個訊息確實會對我們的資本市場會產生影響這是不可否認的那我再請問你你剛說的營運的對策也就是說你有營運的劇本嗎 對不對因為我們一直都有都有 好 那如果是這樣子"},{"start":5321.96,"end":5348.069,"text":"你能不能name of field講一些比方說你的意義是什麼讓我們安心一下吧來講一下name of field資本市場他有很多面向啦剛才沒有錯沒有啦你就specific針對川普當選你的劇本是什麼啦這樣啦快點啦這公開來講我公開問你的啊可能我想這個部分都會影響到市場我想"},{"start":5349.948,"end":5371.847,"text":"這個委員抱歉我沒辦法在這邊跟各位講我們具體說怎樣我會採取什麼動作我想過去一直也沒有對外說明這是我們一個行政機關該有的準備作為好那我再換一個角度不要談這個那你就講因為這美國不管誰當選對我們的資本市場絕對是一個重大的一個政治上的衝擊對不對"},{"start":5373.248,"end":5398.001,"text":"是,不只誰當選,還有他的很多的利率政策還有他對我們的一些貿易的相關的...好,那就請問你,那你的因應對策是什麼嗎?你這個到現在不願意講,那我就撇開不要講川普,你的因應對策是什麼?我想齁,我們過去在這個半年來,其實臺灣的資本市場面臨到...沒有沒有,你不要跟我這個鋪陳啦,我實際有些人就告訴我是什麼比如說我準備更多的銀子"},{"start":5400.302,"end":5424.517,"text":"來護盤或者其他什麼的你告訴我們啊讓我們安心一下啊就是說我們其實過去在因應市場非理性的波動的時候我們一直都有一些因應的措施以及相關的步驟我想這個大概就是我能跟委員報告的地方假設它是一個很理性的反應市場的狀況的話我覺得這部分是一個資本市場它該有的功能但假設說已經很多消息面不正確或是一些非理性的"},{"start":5425.618,"end":5444.255,"text":"是甚麼嗎?你到現在為止都一直跟我鬧一直跟我鬧不回答勒是抱歉我剛已經跟委員報告過了很多事情我沒辦法具體跟這會影響到我們的資本市場而且現在我們的股票市場正在交易中我只想說我這個頭髮在癢你屏幕不抓一直抓我的手抓錯地方啦真的"},{"start":5445.185,"end":5459.656,"text":"沒有回答我的問題啊是就是說剛剛比如說我們舉那個你可以講嘛我們最最bottom line的因應就是國安基金啊那難道不是嗎對國安基金就是因應非理性的啊這你能說嗎什麼都不能說"},{"start":5461.577,"end":5486.587,"text":"國安基金是財政部在處理我們是管資本市場的阿你可以建議阿建議我們當然會有管道去同步在做這件事情阿因為比如說我跟委員並不是說我兜圈子我跟委員報告比如說我們曾經在8月5號發生的一件事情就是我們史上最大的跌幅在前一天我們也將近1000點臺灣的股市很少在兩天之間"},{"start":5488.963,"end":5495.855,"text":"我們做過很多的預言跟推演所以我們包括後面很多事情我想大家都可以看到我們後來我們做了什麼事情有些"},{"start":5497.143,"end":5499.184,"text":"對外有限公司對外有限公司對外有限公司對外有限公司"},{"start":5526.472,"end":5545.966,"text":"就那幾個嘛 對不對 我的漲跌幅、處理漲跌幅 對不對這個就是那幾個工具嘛 大家也知道我是要叫你免RFU 你就RFU就不要耶 來來來 所以沒有答案就對了沒有答案但是我今天不方便跟委員報告 就是剛剛委員提到說我們有的政策工具我失望了 這樣說我失望了"},{"start":5549.609,"end":5564.859,"text":"來我們來看喔你現在有沒有開放專業投資人可以富如同賣、賣比特幣、ETF上次有報告過我們現在是開放可以做這件事情開放專業投資人嘛對不對專業投資人專業的投資人那什麼時候開放給一般投資人"},{"start":5571.821,"end":5592.995,"text":"這個齁我覺得這個沒有一定的時間表因為其實我們社會上有兩種意見一種是說給大家期待啊那不是嗎為什麼提這個因為大家認為川普如果上來比特幣比特幣最近的這漲了才是因為因為川普的後勢看好他就在往上拉是沒錯對不對啊所以有些人想要欸我們投資紀律這樣也不行"},{"start":5595.156,"end":5614.147,"text":"其實應該講跟委員報告就是說我們這個是逐步開放其實很多國家連這個都沒辦法做那我們是先從專業投資人他風險承受力比較好的開始我們也必須看他執行的成效你可是有觀察期嘛那個觀察期多久?半年?我想觀察期的話半年可以嗎?"},{"start":5614.867,"end":5631.848,"text":"半年可以是一個觀察點只是我們還是要看他的交易量還有交易的關係所以半年以後再決定要不要開放給一般投資人我們隨時可以評估假設我應該提到我們給半年來評估他的實施結果我可以這麼承諾就半年我會來評估一次"},{"start":5632.529,"end":5647.911,"text":"半年來評估要不要開放給一般投資人可以這樣說反正我們來評估真正執行的成效看看確實是否對這個我們的投資人是否真能夠完全能夠了解再過一兩天啊"},{"start":5648.972,"end":5669.866,"text":"在臺北有Fintech展金管會的角色是什麼這是我們跟金融總會跟金融業兩年一度的國際上非常重要的這樣的活動主要是金融總會的辦理我們來指導單位你會去嗎我們通常主委開幕一定會去所以你去講話你要重點在哪裡"},{"start":5671.144,"end":5692.522,"text":"跟我們講一下你講我重點是什麼先透露一下啊!這樣也沒有!剛才也沒有!這也沒有!給你吹嘘一下也不要!這麼客氣啊!謝謝委員給我這個機會啊!對啊!給你吹嘘一下啊!先把我的講稿預先的跟大家做報告你看我對你多好!讓你先溜一手!我讚耶!重點講一個就是重點!一個重點!"},{"start":5694.443,"end":5707.254,"text":"我們立場第一個就是我剛剛有簡單報告我我們鼓勵金融科技的發展希望金融機構跟金融科技網路銀行現在看起來是市場上短期沒有這個需求所以不要開放如果有人申請呢?"},{"start":5722.626,"end":5730.625,"text":"我們其實並沒有說禁止我只是說這個屬性其實我們還是要觀察市場的金融法人的結果你們"},{"start":5732.113,"end":5752.614,"text":"金融沙盒金融沙盒條例確實很多地方需要調我們也有委託這個委外營就做一個還要再調整金融監理沙盒我在很多場合就說比如說我們的落地機制那其實上是需要調整的因為否則它的誘因是比較不夠的好 我們一起來調整金融沙盒最後一個那個交易所的長官你其他人有嗎"},{"start":5756.601,"end":5758.582,"text":"財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會"},{"start":5772.577,"end":5787.647,"text":"交易額多少交易額的部分來講我們基本上現在是國際的探險的交易國內的是剛啟動而已那我們交易的金額基本上來講的話大概是一兩千萬"},{"start":5789.293,"end":5798.846,"text":"這等於沒有啊這等於這個市場等於沒有啊這問題在哪裡那就是因為你臺灣的廠商沒有讓他進來啊對不對沒有讓他一個他應該要進來啊現在來講已經要課碳費了"},{"start":5804.353,"end":5825.29,"text":"要大家開始來熟悉這個東西結果你現在來講的話你的探交所只有國際上探權在那裡買賣嘛啊公司在那裡等你一個籌碼讓你可以股票市場裡面可以交易買賣對於臺灣的廠商真的需要探權的或者我想賣的"},{"start":5826.411,"end":5842.161,"text":"你有沒有提供個平台啊有,報告委員什麼時候開始沒有,我們現在已經在10月我們在高雄launch了這個平台我們初期的時候有6個商品國內的探險的商品在架上"},{"start":5843.491,"end":5859.861,"text":"我時間到了,但是我就問你一句話是不是全面開放我們當然是全面開放國內的探權的supply他如果有一些project經過我們環境部的許可的都可以上架來在14天的公告期裡面"},{"start":5861.343,"end":5879.114,"text":"一般的股份可以賣到嗎還是企業界還是沒有嘛還距離有一段距離啦對對現在因為我們10月才開放什麼時候可以開放到一般股份可以參加我們先是不是先從華人開始市場要先開的大啦一兩千萬要一天一兩千萬這麼小好不好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝那個司法委員好謝謝委員接著請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":5900.308,"end":5902.801,"text":"謝謝主席 有請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":5907.583,"end":5929.922,"text":"委員長主委好主委那個最近我們金管會有想要加速監理這一個虛擬貨幣的業者然後要把洗錢法相關的執法提早到今年的12月我覺得這是好事情這簡單的講就是提早納管但是既然有上個禮拜還有立委說叫金管會不要上路我實在很難理解這個邏輯"},{"start":5931.463,"end":5945.396,"text":"那我認為你要提早上路的狀況的話最關鍵的原因在哪裡呢我覺得有一點阻力的地方在於銀行工會在去年有通過一個自律規範這自律規範當中呢它基本上呢"},{"start":5948.438,"end":5974.456,"text":"執行之後就有聽到許許多多業者來說呢被停戶啦不給開新戶啦無法增資我不曉得你曉不曉得也許銀行局長也會知道這種狀況在這種狀況底下呢因為我們在整個洗錢防治法通過之後我們有要求業者必須開立兩個帳戶一個是財務帳戶一個是業務帳戶如果這種情況底下不能開的話那要如何納管"},{"start":5975.617,"end":5990.616,"text":"執行端不配合那你的執法再怎麼定母法再怎麼快速的通過執法再怎麼提前那要如何落實主委是這個當然就是說銀行他根據他們的自立規範他會判斷說這家公司的品質"},{"start":5991.437,"end":6008.466,"text":"他決定要跟他往來這個確實是銀行在實務上當比如說今天如果說他們今天是沒有很明確的理由然後就全部不開這個我們通常會介入協調我們在過去的時候有很多的案例不只是VASP我們像比如說現在P2P主委我認為這是時間差啦"},{"start":6009.787,"end":6022.916,"text":"銀行工會銀行工會的部分是在2023年11月底的事情那現在我們打詐的部分陸續修法是今年下半年之後所以在這個部分我們有打詐這個專法的這種情況底下你應該讓這個自律規範適時的予以放寬他如果沒有納管"},{"start":6029.761,"end":6055.612,"text":"基本上你沒有給他有賬戶的話你也查不到他的金流嗎主委是不是當然就是檯面化是我們管理很重要但是就是銀行他自己有他自己的風險的空管這點委員我可不可以請銀行局長簡單回答一下我沒有什麼時間啊銀行局長我相信他專業會給你做一個完整的報告但是我只有一個要求既然執法要提早上入12月那你就應該把這12月的問題在12月當前解決"},{"start":6056.432,"end":6080.536,"text":"不要變成執法上路結果實務上執行端卻出了問題可以嗎對我來瞭解一下假設他真的是有這個困難瞭解一下好不好那上週我就教於您的部分有說你上次提到所謂的這個資產管理中心的這個部分說要壯大投信的部分要把這一個這個類權委的部分這一個開放"},{"start":6081.256,"end":6105.612,"text":"這一點本席去了解一下因為跟你們所知拿不到我們自己查了以六大受選公司的這一個內全委的委託我們大概初步估計了一下月月佔整體的這一個投資型保單大概超過一半以上然後另外內全委的這一個商品根據我們的統計大概237項之多其中有66%將近7成都是委託給這個外商投信"},{"start":6110.695,"end":6138.457,"text":"也就是說這外商投信呢他在右邊的這個圖案當中只能投資什麼境外基金跟ETF那譬如講摩根、斯洛德、富達等等每一個壽險跟他圈的都只能投資境外那我問你啊你的壯大投信是壯大本土投信還是壯大外國的投信啊我們當然是壯大本國的投信對啊,比例上現在都是在都是給這境外基金ETF啊"},{"start":6139.517,"end":6149.654,"text":"對不對所以就是等於把臺灣人的錢推到國外而且這些啊都去買垃圾債這些啊都是投入新的市場都是高風險"},{"start":6151.67,"end":6179.691,"text":"你把臺灣的資金推到剛風險委員這其實有點小誤會啦其實我們剛才講雖然我們是要壯大本國的資產管理業當然我們剛才講本國資產管理業剛才做這些事情他也沒有限制這不是說只有本國的外國才可以去沒有我沒有說外國可以喔如果外國可以就百分之百一部分你們一部分的這些六大受險都是下放給他旗下的一些那個基金的代鈔代鈔的那個公司啦就是簡單的給他們自己的投信啦對那"},{"start":6180.952,"end":6205.811,"text":"這個我沒有說不可以啦他是壯大自己的金融機構那本來無可厚非但是其他人就跑到國外去了嘛這是第一啦第二個你的資產管理中心的任務不是要留資嗎是的阿就把資金推往外呢而且是高風險的曝險呢這根本是矛盾的事情嘛主委是所以說這個東西你要去思考一下喔這我一定會來思考2022年我唸給你聽啦境外基金當中很多還投資什麼恆大恆大地產"},{"start":6208.593,"end":6231.751,"text":"投資什麼?還投資什麼?碧桂園這兩間都倒了啊當初這些錢都被沖銷掉了你知道嗎?真實的狀況你不一定了解這個其實我們都有在監控不過剛剛委員提到沒有錯確實有投資恆大、碧桂園不過相對的金額並沒有是一個很顯著的就是有這些投資標的嘛就倒掉了嘛這樣已經被沖完不然你去把它找出來嘛那主委"},{"start":6232.932,"end":6262.052,"text":"我就跟你講念一段話曾經有一位教授他姓彭彭教授他在2022年4月1號的時候對這投資保單大賣的時候有投書這個彭教授所吸收資金後的委託他業進行投資這是否是保險所鼓勵的除了導致基金全部轉往投資型保單商品之外在引流這一巨巨大的民間油資去處時是否應該有更明確的方向跟做法"},{"start":6262.752,"end":6288.005,"text":"都是在把這個投資型商品的銷售熱潮下應該要好好的審思主委你對這個彭教授的內容有沒有感受到有熟悉感阿有阿這是我一向的主張對這是你一向的主張阿你的主張是這樣子阿你的這個具體的解決方式是怎樣子你難道要把台灣的資金任由外資這樣子牽著鼻子走跑來跑去嗎當然不是當然不是我剛問"},{"start":6288.945,"end":6309.431,"text":"跟我們報告的意思就是說我會寫那篇文章主要是提醒就是說我們要均衡就是說我們今天的保險的功能它本來就有一個這個投資金保單它本來就是兼具有投資的功能它本來就是這樣但是另外還有一個保障的功能對不對那我只是說我們通常在景氣的時候呢很多保險公司呢大概就會以這個為主"},{"start":6310.191,"end":6329.573,"text":"那其實上要考慮到未來當不景氣的時候這個其實上是未來可能有設計風險你這個說法你就是對這個投資型保單感到高度的質疑嘛你是點到為止而已嘛他有兩面性他有兩面性對你有兩面性啦對啊你包牌的寫法啦我沒有說啦因為損益是由客戶來致富啦"},{"start":6329.893,"end":6353.709,"text":"這是一個他很重要的特徵我必須跟你說啦你上個禮拜比較直接了當的說這是美喬商會跟歐洲商會在找人來遊說啦我跟你說這個遊說的人不只是美喬商會跟這個外商而已啦還有包括你們內部的人啦你們內部人的立場其實跟這個外商都站在一致的立場他拼命的遊說啦"},{"start":6355.35,"end":6377.699,"text":"我不要講說誰啦以前在政企局啦現在保險局啦你要搞清楚啦這也在考驗你的領導統一的能力啊是謝謝委員提醒你們後面金管會員有在笑啦沒有我想主要是這樣因為其實站在一個政府立場我們不只哪個哪個單位或機構團體他的提的建議我們都會考慮但我們不會"},{"start":6379.339,"end":6406.466,"text":"投資人的錢很重要金管會最重要把關者就是你保護投資人把他推進火坑好不好當然當然這我們會來努力你如果真的要壯大投信的話也不是壯大國外投信要壯大本土投信要壯大本土優質的投信你之前有提過壯大投信要從什麼開始從你們自己提到的躍進計畫開始啦你們躍進計畫從2015年就有了最近呢今年又有做一些修改簡單的講要精進啦對"},{"start":6408.126,"end":6433.831,"text":"目標要分期管理第三要差別待遇你把期投資的平等應該稍微放寬一下不要每一次每一個投信單位都只有一個你應該把級距稍微拉高表現好的我商品你提出的商品我加速審理或者把那個額度提高鼓勵鼓勵啊正常壯大投信壯大本土投信壯大本土優質的投信啊不是嗎是的"},{"start":6435.168,"end":6463.621,"text":"那你這個基金計畫要好好改一改嘛我們其實一直都在調整啦剛剛委員的指正我們會期讓大家投信你沒有把資金留到臺灣結果把資金拱手讓人去進行一些高風險的商品的操作那怎麼對我叫你這個好好檢討啦我真的反對你這個把這個這個內權委開放啦最後我再跟你討論一下齁有關於這個這個南非幣的事情齁我上禮拜請教於你了你有沒有想到什麼好的因應方法"},{"start":6464.788,"end":6492.185,"text":"現在當然就是說我已經有指證我們就去先把這個所謂的曝險部位我們先做一個瞭解再去分析他們的屬性以及看看他們的到底會有多大的影響到底這是一個什麼樣的影響比如說我們知道銀行跟保險跟證券那當然現在是以證券的金額是佔比較多你們之前公布的金融商業有641億的公債南非必計價的基金有2265億但是少"},{"start":6492.825,"end":6508.138,"text":"作為計算本期幫你加一個是投資型的保單368億再加上這個南非幣的存款這是我是從央行這邊調來的總共是4216億總額是這樣子的部署金額高達4000億以上這是其一其二你要怎麼做"},{"start":6509.639,"end":6538.354,"text":"我講白點我跟你探討一個問題啦這個問題其實是過去常常提到外交就是所謂的金錢外交我覺得要如何形成一個金融的外交台灣的金融實力可以作為一個外交一個很重要的槓桿的一個武器啊你身為這個主委你應該要善用我們的金融實力啊所以我上週特別提醒你這一點你說你沒有注意到那我給你一個禮拜的時間你還是沒回答出來還是要跟我回答資金的規模資金的規模跟我估計又不一樣"},{"start":6540.174,"end":6561.819,"text":"可以怎麼做?我們假設我們商品先以風險處理為先那接下來我們來看說因為假設看他的政情變化我們怎麼樣去因應這個措施至少我們未來對這個商品的發行或什麼我們會有一些不一樣的看法發行有不一樣的看法?就緊縮?限制?當然未來可能就是未來那現有的呢?"},{"start":6563.039,"end":6579.797,"text":"現有的部分它很多都是有相關契約的規定有沒有可能南非幣計價可以改成美元計價有沒有可能這個當然是契約當時的約定啦我想是這部分可能那你去看看嘛這第二個有沒有可能把這個風險懸殊把它提高成10倍有沒有可能"},{"start":6581.327,"end":6609.294,"text":"這不是契約了吧這風險權術的部分我們要再來評估它真正的風險才能夠決定那有沒有可能限制金融商業投資南非國債的部分限期出脫有沒有可能我想所有的方法都可以評估中這業者都是你在管的嘛我已經跟你講三招了嘛第四招有沒有可能把金融機構從事南非交易者降低它ESG的平等分數有沒有可能全部都是你的權利欸"},{"start":6610.441,"end":6632.495,"text":"主委 你的權力很大耶沒有 我想所有的謝謝委員的建議啦我們這個全部都可以納入評估全部都可以納入評估可以一個方向你一個方案當然我們都會透露一下以那個風險明天我們就要被趕出去了耶主委 你要想到什麼時候明天月底了呢人家限制明天呢你還在想"},{"start":6633.766,"end":6641.936,"text":"你要不要先準備起來我們盡快來評估我給你一個禮拜了我再給你一天明天最後一天了所以明天颱風會來但是那邊沒有颱風假"},{"start":6643.929,"end":6667.475,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我想我們這部分我們會來請我們的業務單位技術來評估你告訴本席一下我跟你講的四個當中有三個你的權利就可以處理了跟合約無關我期望你在主委任內可以發展一個所謂金融外交的方式把台灣的金融實力展現出來主委有沒有可能當然這是一個思考方向啦過去我們並沒有"},{"start":6668.951,"end":6669.331,"text":"接著請戴惠文委員質詢"},{"start":6697.469,"end":6705.015,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們有請金板會主委有請彭主委委員好"},{"start":6706.727,"end":6733.16,"text":"主委早安不要緊張我會比較溫暖一點不會請教您一些問題主委我想就是金管會2025年的施政計畫針對施政計畫裡頭我特別挑了一個普惠金融落實消費者權益的一個保護跟普惠金融來今天跟你做一個探討我們知道"},{"start":6733.92,"end":6759.347,"text":"我們就先從這個詐騙詐騙的一個那個廣告投資詐騙的一個廣告的一個修正的一個機制裡頭來先跟主委做一個溝通其實在金管會在8月份你們有那個提出來就是說投資詐騙陳情案件達了百件甚至在網路那個收報一年半以上那你們"},{"start":6760.027,"end":6780.863,"text":"就是收到了5.5萬件那其實我們也知道就是說在這個打擊詐騙金管會其實你們有透那個要臉書還有Google原商投資詐騙的一個廣告那也達成了就是說只要是政府通報那我們就是快速下架的一個共識"},{"start":6782.364,"end":6801.334,"text":"那後來那個投信投顧法的一個修正也讓我們就是說明定網路平台業者就是他是有責任下架不滑的一個投資廣告那當然就是說這個這一套那個收報的一個機制在去年那個4月份的時候已經啟動了"},{"start":6802.535,"end":6819.04,"text":"那也執行了一年半那在這執行的過程當中我想就是說特別要跟主委今天做的探討是說在這一個整個金管會的一個修正裡頭我們看到了就是你在你的那個"},{"start":6821.39,"end":6834.48,"text":"網頁上有特別標列了鄭麒麒在今年8月接獲了100件的金融詐騙案的一個澄清案是創了今年單頁的新高今年累計已經接獲了523件詐騙案的一個澄清案"},{"start":6841.348,"end":6867.591,"text":"主委 是有沒有就是說去討論這一些詐騙案它有沒有地區的一個特性譬如說它是在臺南被騙的它是在六都被騙的還是六都以外的區域被騙的呢你們有沒有做過這樣子的一個我們現在的資料你們是用總體的資料並沒有按照地區別啦那如果未來有需要我們可以看看有沒有在有沒有這個可能性來做這個統計"},{"start":6869.739,"end":6884.168,"text":"可是如果那你們就是進入到大水庫的一個概念上所以你們沒有特別去蒐證就是說那個到底是這個被詐騙的一個區域是在哪裡那主委你的經驗裡頭被詐騙比較多的是在都會區還是會都會區呢"},{"start":6889.131,"end":6916.106,"text":"你的經驗、經驗法則因為我們看到他們大家都是使用那個社群媒體跟比如說我們最常用的Meta跟Line的這樣的組合來做那本來就是每個人都有機會會碰到對所以那當然這個部分的話如果說按照這個應該是蠻均勻分配但這跟我們的市大能力有關這我現在是沒有這樣的數據啦那法務部可能提供給你嗎"},{"start":6918.069,"end":6933.496,"text":"報告部的部分我們在做的主要是資訊的溝通跟跟互相的這個協同作業像比如說我們的林桂關懷就是跟警政單位就是非常非常密切的合作還有就是我們的疑似詐騙的帳戶有沒有這些都是我們"},{"start":6933.996,"end":6953.618,"text":"好 主委你特別提到了零貴的一個關懷那如果就是說我們如果從這一個零貴的關懷在今年那個前7個月的時候我們金融機構對於零貴關懷我們主詐了近7000件喔那我們攔下了台幣47億"},{"start":6956.02,"end":6975.636,"text":"這個是一個非常大的一個數字那所以我們也是從這個數字裡頭2023年到今年的7月底以前金融機構透過零貴的一個關懷主詐的一個金額其實已經超過120億了那如果我們大概可以推算你一年主詐的金額大概有70億"},{"start":6977.797,"end":7004.624,"text":"這70億的話你有沒有就是說做什麼樣的一個方式這70億是繳回國庫嗎還是就是說你們有分配到就是銀行裡頭對於主詐詐騙的過程裡頭可以更靈活那也平衡安全的一個考量注重隱私就是簡單的講說金管會在這一方面有沒有提供銀行臨櫃人員相關的SOP或是演訓的一個培訓還是攔阻"},{"start":7006.744,"end":7024.736,"text":"成功的一個獎金最重要是獎金有沒有這樣子的一個作為這個各位報告其實剛剛委員提到其實我們在第一線的銀行員非常的辛苦而且他們過去真的那個真的付出了非常非常多的努力保護剛剛委員提到我們這一年半的時間就這樣一件一件攔攔下了120億是那這個當然就是各銀行其實"},{"start":7029.299,"end":7042.654,"text":"那目前金管會並沒有提供這樣的獎金但是我們會我們是非常支持銀行的他們各個銀行要非常支持這些行業們像比如說我們在8月8月的時候呢主委那我想請教你這個120億跑到哪裡去了"},{"start":7045.137,"end":7069.282,"text":"那個就是民眾沒有被詐騙成功的錢那是民眾的錢所以這些銀行的櫃台銀行這些同仁是不是值得鼓勵當然當然他們也需要就是說特別的一個訓練那銀行局有沒有這樣子的一個規劃我們像比如說我們剛剛8月5號的時候我們把那個十大那個"},{"start":7070.662,"end":7096.22,"text":"那個攔阻金額的行員我們就把他聚集請那個卓院長一一的頒獎這個是十大嘛對就是他前面就是因為我們找幾個真的就是就是攔阻下很大的一部分對對對比如說其中有一個我記得他是就是這個光榮感是有了那有沒有一個實質的一個回饋我想這個也是請主委四個朝這個方向來請我們的銀行端來好了鼓勵我們這些的辛苦的行員們"},{"start":7097.36,"end":7114.189,"text":"對那接著就是說打造事法我們已經三讀通過了金管會議計在這個年底完成配套的執法那你這個配套的執法有沒有一個時程的規劃有當然就是我們剛才配剛才其實委員有提到本來這次叫年底的但是我們這次呢會"},{"start":7115.56,"end":7142.021,"text":"按照行政院的指示有可能提前一個月所以我們這部分希望能夠盡快來實施讓它具有法源讓它具有法源是的好那主委我想不論是黃詐騙還是促進數位金融的一個應用這個相關的宣傳相關的宣傳跟教育都非常的重要那這個失智證的一個提供的一個服務友善的一個金融一條街這一個那個就是在"},{"start":7142.601,"end":7154.379,"text":"找機會跟主委做探討特別我有一個比較特別的這個是我不知道主委看過這本書沒有這本書是金融的基礎教育學生的手冊"},{"start":7155.751,"end":7177.169,"text":"那我們認真的把它要回來要回來就是研究了那我們覺得說這一個手冊其實它是適用在小學三年級以上三年級到六年級可是它的內容寫得太深了那為什麼一年級到三年級沒有這樣的一個手冊呢你如何的用錢那"},{"start":7178.784,"end":7196.244,"text":"這個普及那個金融交易的普及我覺得是在最基層的扎根還有就是說你們這一套書其實已經編了很久了內容你應該我等一下那個送給你你拿回去參考看看內容太深了啦"},{"start":7197.878,"end":7223.359,"text":"這個我想小學生要看得懂你這一本書顯然其實是非常辛苦的非常辛苦的所以我覺得這個基礎教育是有一點這個學生手冊是有一點就是好像是應付了事編得非常非常的不好這個內容我們來精進對所以這個也是要跟就是那個"},{"start":7225.014,"end":7241.563,"text":"主委做一個建議那當然走入校園跟社區的辦理金融知識的一個宣傳的活動那你們從2006年開始金管會就結合銀行局就在不斷的那個就是做這個場次的宣傳到了2022年你們總共辦了7846場"},{"start":7245.985,"end":7268.868,"text":"看起來好像人數很多那你宣傳的對象就從國小三年級到六年級那一直就是這個有很多很多一個那個就是各種面向那我要針對的就是說你走入校園跟社區辦理金融知識的一個宣傳的活動這個前四大其中有一個單位"},{"start":7269.909,"end":7298.848,"text":"特別的有意思你在國小你用了27%可是你矯正機關你竟然用了15%這個矯正機關為什麼要用15%這個是一個非常諷刺的一個問題我覺得這個緩差緩差的一個場域是不是因為在矯正機關裡頭其實這一些人基本上是不是應該就是接受金融知識的一個宣傳嗎"},{"start":7300.37,"end":7316.269,"text":"這跟委員報告好主要是因為我們的矯正機關是法務部那邊他會主動的要求我們提供這個課程因為他也是他矯正這個工作的一部分我們提供一個所以他這個比重會看起來會比較高一點這是因為他本來就是有這個課程提供請我們"},{"start":7317.17,"end":7341.567,"text":"可是事實上主委你把這個放在繳稅機關因為你們顯然是說被動的嘛你們不是主動的嘛那如果是主動的話你把它放在這個地方我覺得效果是不好的況且如果你們要真的嚴格上來講的話你們每一個月其實每一個月你們可以辦200場那16年來你應該不是只有累積不到8000場"},{"start":7343.268,"end":7359.717,"text":"所以說基本上就是說你應該加強辦理況且你辦理的地方我覺得這個還是有待我們再修正你這個緩差感很大讓人家覺得很諷刺為什麼是在這個矯正機關我認為建議建議應該在幾個地方可以帶來更好的宣傳效果在大專院校"},{"start":7365.94,"end":7389.462,"text":"這是職業訓練的那個中心因為年輕人他要進入職場了嘛所以他必須要有很好的一個理財的觀念金融的一個知識嘛那甚至在社區中心還是公民活動中心因為這個是居民聚集的地方他其實對於老百姓他就是說他有一般的一個債務的一個規劃有實際的需要還是說他預算他要怎麼樣去規劃"},{"start":7390.683,"end":7406.556,"text":"那個他的退休的一個資金還有企業跟職場的一個培訓公共圖書館主委我想這一這個這個就是金融知識的宣傳顯然我們還要再多做加強確實剛才比說大專業校確實我們是未來的重點"},{"start":7407.296,"end":7408.036,"text":"好,接著請主委"},{"start":7436.616,"end":7450.985,"text":"委員長是主委我想現在眾所矚目的就是11月5號的美國大選根據外電還有相關的報導其實有很多人擔心的是川普川普當選之後有可能大幅調高關稅加發美債還有"},{"start":7455.347,"end":7472.8,"text":"他會生產更多的化石燃料對抗氣候變遷最重要的是會引起全球的金融風暴所以請問主委我剛聽到其他委員在問其實我在問的是臺灣我們要做金融兵推其實美國大選可能也必須要做一次金融兵推你認為呢"},{"start":7474.145,"end":7494.328,"text":"當然所有的情況的演練我們平常做一個監理機關我們都有做最好的準備了嗎我們都有做準備因為這部分其實百姓要的是一個政府給的信心所以你有18套劇本嗎我們有劇本是18套還是只有兩套劇本一套是賀錦麟當選一套是川普當選"},{"start":7494.909,"end":7516.409,"text":"其實我們都有去預想相關的結果我們希望這種狀況可能在衝擊來的時候我們已經很能夠讓人民安心了因為這個真的是無法預測但是我們希望臺灣是很穩健的度過各種你就像一隻小船在兩個大船之中他們在翻腳的時候我們至少可以自保"},{"start":7516.969,"end":7531.942,"text":"尤其是在金融方面那接下去對於可能的川普對於臺灣的影響或者是賀錦麗她比較容易預測因為至少會延續拜登的政策是大家預期是這樣好那接下來時間暫停我請鄭齊局局長一起好"},{"start":7537.386,"end":7561.303,"text":"主委、局長我想接下去我想問的就是虛擬資產在我們洗錢防治法通過之後接下去12月1號就要開始實施新的相關的辦法了是嗎我們在11月底就會發布現在的那一子話所以就是說我們原來就有一個所謂的登記的洗錢聲明的制度現在經過核准的業者有多少"},{"start":7562.25,"end":7562.51,"text":"總經理列席業務報告"},{"start":7582.161,"end":7596.85,"text":"虛擬業者聽起來很多真的在臺灣得到洗錢防治聲明許可的只有26家然後我們調查過上一次質詢的時候已經說明清楚全臺灣人在使用的"},{"start":7600.794,"end":7624.233,"text":"虛擬資產76%是使用外資平台也就是用這26家的占不到臺灣的20%、25%也就是說有這麼多業者依照你的規定是沒有登記不可以在臺灣營業對不對未來登記之後他一定要來登記才可以營業未來那現在呢現在就是可以隨便管他自己在外面營業你也管不著"},{"start":7625.595,"end":7640.539,"text":"目前的話你就要先聲明制度有做到或者你會被罰款會被罰,罰了幾家我們有罰過一家你知不知道現在有沒有登記的業者已經大剌剌的做著公車廣告叫BitGate"},{"start":7642.233,"end":7660.062,"text":"公車廣告到處跑社群網站一直在做促銷它也沒有聲明你也沒有罰過你只罰一家好不好 諸位我現在要說的是這麼多年從112年到113年我們有一個叫做行政程序法"},{"start":7660.862,"end":7678.149,"text":"行政程序法是人民來申請兩個月之內你要做處理沒有處理你可以延長一次四個月但是現在有二三十家來申請每一家在政企局審核的時間都超過法定的四個月也就是政企局到底想管還是不想管"},{"start":7679.113,"end":7703.611,"text":"如果你不想管你就用各種理由拖延不審查第二個你想管你就請大家都進來給你管新的制度是大家都要進來給我管但是我剛講了76%的營業在做實際虛擬資產的操作的76%佔比的業者我們不管我們現在到底是怎樣要管還是不要管"},{"start":7704.171,"end":7723.023,"text":"市長跟委員報告一下剛才委員提到那個審查的時間其實同仁在這方面都有注意到那很多會有往往反是因為他們的資料的說要不爭不起但是放在政企局也是因為你太忙了沒有我有去查對他們但是我的意思是說我們的目的是要管"},{"start":7724.096,"end":7746.136,"text":"我們希望說業者都被你管他來營業他正登當當營業而不是這樣子他在外面營業我們管不了他我們保護了26家那幾家不管所以但是大部分都在跟他買我實在不懂我們到底要幹嘛就報告委員當然我們的態度不會是這樣啊我只是說剛剛我先簡單回答一下他們過去所有的審核時間我都有看過大概都在"},{"start":7747.723,"end":7773.886,"text":"兩個月以內一個月1.5個月最多希望是那我現在我們有很多的數字其實我們不要講細節是我們要趕的是主委的態度就是說要管就認真的管而且他在臺灣實際有在接受國人的相關的交易我們就應該讓他備管而且將來發生事情我們可以納入他在我們的行前防治相關的安全網裡面這才是我們要做的不是嗎"},{"start":7774.546,"end":7799.868,"text":"當然剛剛有委員提醒到就是說其實我們為了保護國人我們當然希望他是在我們的管轄範圍我們才有比較沒錯我的意思是說要人要錢主委幫正其舉他如果人力不夠我覺得還是要幫助他如果他審查需要這麼久這麼慢但是我的立場是很簡單我們洗錢防治相關的規範進來之後我們希望所有的業者都能夠被納管"},{"start":7801.81,"end":7823.927,"text":"已經在路上跑跳的這些業者而且他被警示的業者麻煩政協局認真查該罰就罰他沒有進來你也沒有核准但是他一樣在營業然後沒有任何影響這誰要被你管反正我照樣做我繼續做我的事反正你也管不了我我們不是要這些業者在外面當畫歪之地吧對吧"},{"start":7825.309,"end":7842.09,"text":"主委這是態度問題12月1號上路比如12月1號開始如果說沒有登記的話這是有刑責的重罰而且拜託你們審查快一點有沒有是不是該不該讓他核准不准就不准"},{"start":7843.12,"end":7862.532,"text":"合準就合準不是這樣拖拖拉拉好嗎這是第一步所以麻煩政企局我覺得他們人力也不夠這個業務突然掉在他們頭上其實也不是他們熟悉的業務而且接下去我還是認為主委你應該去爭取另外一個新的金融科技局包括這些電子支付"},{"start":7863.769,"end":7864.249,"text":"這一定是我們努力的方向"},{"start":7880.484,"end":7903.024,"text":"好 局長請回我想接下來是一個新的問題也就是臺灣已經進入超高齡社會了那我們現在大概預估將來會有92萬人有長照的需求那國人的平均臥床時間大概是7到8年所以主委我想問一下我們曾經在2022年的時候推動所謂的補充型長照的商業保險"},{"start":7904.085,"end":7932.643,"text":"但是中間發生了防疫險所以大家都嚇壞了現在我們還有沒有這樣的計畫而且現在長照的需求越來越高在沒有商業保險比較便宜的情況之下民眾還是要靠所謂的外勞、機構但是幾乎是傾家蕩產這些補充式的長照保險之前是商業險它比一般的長照保險保費低了25%到60%但是目前停下來"},{"start":7933.644,"end":7954.591,"text":"主委怎麼辦我們全部能夠再爭取一下讓各保險公司能夠推出所謂的補充式長照商業保險補助因為它本質上還是個商業保險還是要尊重商業保險公司他們的一些意願我們過去推動類似的保單比如說微型保單是還有像比如說我們的小兒中老保險我覺得這個很好對"},{"start":7955.731,"end":7981.119,"text":"他在這個政策上風險比較容易控制其實保險公司基於他社會的這個責任也非常的熱烈的響應我想做但長照險我想這個我們推出這個概念我們是希望我們的廠商開始思考這個問題但是我們過去的經驗是他們的反應是比較保守的比較覺得未來長照不管我們的政策還就未來的這些成本比較難控制所以這部分還需要時間來醞釀跟宣導"},{"start":7982.719,"end":8004.153,"text":"所以主委我們現在是希望將來應該說從現在開始如果假設我們的超高齡人口是快速老化其實我們的長照政府每年八九百億其實很快就是沒有不足而且最重要的是國人平均的臥床時間真的太長那個時間真的會讓長照杯葛不斷發生即使政府有長照服務但是"},{"start":8004.733,"end":8027.162,"text":"真正重症失能反而受不到這些長照服務我們希望將來希望推動所謂的比照健保的社會保險但是商業保險還是就像我們有健保可是我們還是會有醫療險這兩個相輔相成才能讓大家將來對於長照的負擔減輕所以第一個我們希望在政府部門不是只有"},{"start":8027.842,"end":8050.448,"text":"做長照2.0、3.0而是將來用社會保險的方式第二個我們希望金管會能夠鼓勵業者其實大家一起來承擔將來長照服務的需求我想這個才是中華民國我們走向超高齡社會之後可能第一步要走的路確實商會保險怎麼樣跟我們的健保做一個補充或是一個協同我想是未來大家可以來思考"},{"start":8050.768,"end":8076.22,"text":"因為我們以社會保險為底商業保險為輔加上最後才是家人的照顧我們現在的問題是家人照顧放在第一位第二位長照服務長照服務也只能限時限量那真正失能反而受不到照顧好嗎主委是這個部分我還是希望金管會能夠跟業者大家一起來共商對於長照將來可能的需求是好嗎謝謝謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":8076.94,"end":8100.138,"text":"好 謝謝珊珊委員接著請李坤城委員質詢謝謝主席我們請這個金管會的彭主委好 請主委委員好這個主委好主委知道明天是什麼節日嗎"},{"start":8101.867,"end":8129.7,"text":"坤城委員等一下等一下主席在這裡宣布李坤城委員質詢完畢我們休息10分鐘好 繼續請問一下主委你知道明天是什麼節嗎10月31號不太知道明天不一定是颱風假但是明天是萬聖節然後川普他最近一句他批評臺灣"},{"start":8131.58,"end":8160.145,"text":"這個偷走了美國的晶片還說要對臺灣的晶片課徵關稅那這有點像是這個萬聖節來講這個Trick or Treat不給糖就搗蛋然後這句話之後這個臺股也應聲大跌那當然這個金管會有出來信心喊話那我也相信說這個我們臺股的這個體質良好台積電也是我們臺灣的驕傲但是美國大選總統大選就是下禮拜應該下禮拜二"},{"start":8162.326,"end":8168.348,"text":"請問一下金管會有做好什麼樣的準備嗎?這個問題剛剛也很多委員關心過因為這個是對臺灣來講就是美國總統大選的結果對臺股對臺灣都會有影響對因為大家的"},{"start":8175.851,"end":8204.26,"text":"都知道臺積電在我們臺股成交比重是一個很高的比重所以它的漲跌對於臺灣股市確實是有比較大的影響剛剛有幾位委員關心過了也問過說金管會有沒有什麼18套劇本來因應這些事情確實我們針對這個事情我們已經開過幾次會然後也跟我們的交易所我們有固定的這樣一個機制去討論以及因應的原理那我們會做好萬全的準備我是說"},{"start":8206.06,"end":8230.629,"text":"金管會有沒有跟我們相關的部會或行政院有沒有召開相關的部會來因應這次美國總統大選對於我們這一個臺灣政治經濟的影響現在我想院級的他們有他自己的這樣的作業我們金管會本來就有一個這樣一個機制在運作我們主要是由金管會跟我們兩個交易所還有我們期權那你們萬全的做法大概是怎麼樣的做法"},{"start":8231.55,"end":8257.644,"text":"就剛剛有委員也有詢問過我說我們有一套的行政的措施我們會在適時在適當的環境之下若出現了一個我們不預期的狀況我們會來提出適當的方法來處理什麼是不預期的狀況因為我們在很多地方都已經說過了我們是一個我們在意的是整個市場交易的秩序然後以及說它的所謂的這個這個交易的"},{"start":8258.704,"end":8280.3,"text":"穩定性所以我們在過去只要有比如說是屬於非理性的這樣的影響因素的話我們就會採取必要的措施所以這個美國總統大選的結果會是一個非理性的影響臺灣股市的一個變數嗎當然有些是基本面的因素有些心理面的因素通常這個非理性都是心理面的因素好那非理性的因素應該短期就會過去了嘛"},{"start":8280.76,"end":8298.476,"text":"通常我們從過去的經驗看到還是會短期會受到心裡面的衝擊長期還是要靠基本他們的體質的支撐好那再請教一下這個主委這個之前這個有大家有在呼籲說針對這個竹林公司但是好像這個影子銀行一樣"},{"start":8299.156,"end":8321.842,"text":"所以有呼籲要制定這個融資公司法那金管會的態度就是說你們現在有這個委外做這個研究的報告那預計年底會出爐那時候再看說是不是要訂專法但是本席有看到說你們最近有兩個措施推斷有可能這個不會推定這個制定這個融資公司的管理法那第一個就是說你們有請銀行公會這個"},{"start":8324.124,"end":8333.202,"text":"訂定銀行對融資租賃業的這個受限實務之旅規範那第二個就是說嚴定將一定資本額達以上規模的上市櫃融資租賃公司"},{"start":8333.986,"end":8356.665,"text":"納入金融消費者保護法適用範圍大概是兩個一個是受信銀行公會的受信實務之律規範另外一個是修改金保法請問一下第一個有關於要求銀行公會對租賃公司受信融資的受信實務之律規範目前進行的情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":8358.01,"end":8379.531,"text":"這個的部分因為我們其實對這個問題很關切因為大家對這個融資公司在社會上這個大家的疑慮主要是在於消費金融的部分那這一塊的話我們確實說因為其實他們很多的資金如果是來自於銀行的話我們確實可以從銀行跟他往來之間進行相關的這樣一個規範所以我們就請他們訂一個這樣一個資歷規範"},{"start":8382.052,"end":8408.699,"text":"來針對這個大家所關切的議題特別是針對中古車還有BMPL就是那個先買後付這部分訂立一個規定還有對他們的貸後管理我們透過銀行來管理我想現在這部分應該已經已經開始上路了就是已經準備要上路了請問一下進度怎麼樣按照如果說媒體所披露的說這個受限使用守則有四大要件第一個就是說檢視放款規模大小那第二個呢"},{"start":8410.221,"end":8431.166,"text":"減釋特定族群的販款集中度簽竊結書對中股車輪融資或BMPL以建立風險機制或在內部簽訂消費者保護的規定才能取得銀行的販款銀行必須在連徵中心資料上註記請問這四個方向是朝這四個方向走嗎?"},{"start":8432.472,"end":8454.866,"text":"原則上是朝這四個方向因為當初我們其實要銀行公會訂的時候有給他們幾個原則這是你們給他們原則嗎對 原則上比如說像BMPL還有中古車消費者保護這個是我們非常強調的原則所以說這個如果那請問一下那這一個由銀行公會的這一個受限實務之律規範何時會上路"},{"start":8458.032,"end":8468.66,"text":"報告委員他們已經報過來我們內部在做了一些調整之後然後給他們了之後他們應該很快就能上路很快是指說11月還是12月"},{"start":8471.479,"end":8496.596,"text":"原則上應該是年底前年底前會上路因為這就是由銀行端來強化受信的管理嘛是的那就是說第二個這個修改金保法那修改金保法就是說你們把一定資本額以上這個上市上櫃的公司那當然目前大概就是三家啦中租、育農跟和潤然後呢按照金保法的規範"},{"start":8498.097,"end":8519.41,"text":"將金融服務業比照一般的金融業來納管那請問一下如果按照這一個修改這個金保法的規定的話這個是只要行政命令公告呢還是要修法這個不用修法因為我們按照金保法第3條我們只要公告它的話就會納入我們的行為管理"},{"start":8519.69,"end":8529.297,"text":"第三條就是說經其他主管機關公告的金融服務業那所以是把這個租賃公司把它視為這個金融服務業嗎因為我們對他的行為納管機構沒有"},{"start":8532.305,"end":8554.925,"text":"對把行為納管機構要未來機構還不是對對機構要未來有專法才對機構但是他們的這一個行為對比如說他做了跟比如說銀行類似的行為他就應該受到相同的對消費者的保護的機制好那請問一下那這個效力是怎麼樣你納入金保法管理之後跟沒有納入他的差別在哪裡他約約束性"},{"start":8555.986,"end":8570.455,"text":"差別在哪裡那當然因為假設納入金保法的內容就會有罰則若違反了這裡面的相關比如說適合度還有資訊揭露、風險告知還有契約公平性都會有罰則是對租賃公司的罰則"},{"start":8571.375,"end":8600.631,"text":"對就是因為他被納入以後他就會會受到金融消費者保護法裡面主要的內容我剛剛跟委員報告那幾項如果他沒有做到這些的話就會被處罰那這個推動上面有困難嗎當然現在這個這部分需要比如說我們先要先初步的跟租賃公會跟相關的業者溝通他們同意以後呢我們就會把他納入他們會同意嗎我們正在溝通中就是說我看這個媒體的報導好像主力蠻大的"},{"start":8601.291,"end":8623.544,"text":"沒有,我覺得應該是我們還在努力,因為這個畢竟是...你們溝通力道還不夠大嗎?還是怎樣?我們會持續的來努力因為這個是你們公告就可以嘛當然公告的過程當中還是要跟他們溝通啦當然,我們現在政府需要跟...因為它畢竟這個本質上並不是我們現在大家所認知的所謂的我們金管會金管的金融服務業"},{"start":8624.204,"end":8640.846,"text":"但是我們希望透過這個過渡式的管理希望趕快把國人關切這個內容也希望他們基於對社會的期待趕快的加入這個部分的管理那年底之前能夠公告嗎這部分我們不敢預期進度但我們會盡快的跟他們加速協調的過程"},{"start":8642.268,"end":8660.808,"text":"這個應該是要給一個Date Line你們才會去做當然你們已經有做了但是如果說這個他們有一些這個一些阻力然後呢那你們這一次溝通那也不知道溝通溝通溝通到哪個時候啊總是還有個期限嘛那自己主委心中的這個期限希望哪個時候能夠這個能夠公告"},{"start":8661.889,"end":8683.084,"text":"因為它裡面還牽涉到範圍的問題當然大家有人說是不是有那三家有人說是不是上市櫃有沒有說上市櫃就是這三家啊他們也算了大概所有的這個授信大概九成以上是不是工會的會員還是說金融機構所屬的子公司這些範圍其實還要再來考量一下我想"},{"start":8683.985,"end":8708.365,"text":"委員這個的督促我們其實我們對這個東西其實是非常認真而且我覺得是很審慎的我知道就是在這個專法出來之前你們就是至少這兩個方向有在做那另外一個你剛才說這個銀行公會希望說在年底之前至少能夠那個規範能夠先出來我們用多管齊下希望這個秩序所以我也希望說這個納入金保法在年底之前"},{"start":8709.385,"end":8728.217,"text":"能夠公告我們朝這個方向來做好不好那會不會因為這樣子其實你們就不想設立專法這是另外一回事因為跟我們報告專法如果容易的話這個案子從85年開始討論到現在我知道啦所以我覺得這牽涉到整個很"},{"start":8729.258,"end":8741.621,"text":"比較複雜的範圍我們希望是透過假設能夠分階段讓我們知道這個管理的這樣的方式以後接下來我們的專法、納管就比較有一個輪廓而且比較容易達到社會的共識所以你們委員會的報告是年底會出來"},{"start":8743.347,"end":8767.322,"text":"就是有關融資公司徵法我們委外的報告對委外的報告年底會有個初稿出來好那我還是希望說這個年底能夠公告落入金保法我們朝這方向努力好謝謝我這還有2分鐘嗎還是時間到了時間到了時間到了喔好好好OKOK好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝坤城委員那接著我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":8790.6,"end":8795.142,"text":"財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會"},{"start":8827.769,"end":8835.254,"text":"主席財政委員會主席財政委員會主席財政委員會主席財政委員會主席財政委員會主席財政委員會主席財政委員會"},{"start":8861.788,"end":8869.691,"text":"財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會"},{"start":9359.687,"end":9361.188,"text":"主席在這裡宣布繼續開會現在開始詢答接著我們請袁寬恆委員質詢"},{"start":9393.31,"end":9398.342,"text":"主席各位列席官員大家好主席有請金管會彭主委好彭主委"},{"start":9402.699,"end":9424.783,"text":"主委好終於等到金管會的業務報告了開業一個多月了我們都持續關注金管會的業務內容謝謝委員關心先跟主委討論一個嚴肅的議題新聞報導我們的金管會行政體系下上級主管利用自己的權力去打壓、苛責這個基層的員工"},{"start":9429.784,"end":9449.274,"text":"保發中心保發中心的更誇張這個霸凌公讀生導致公讀生跳樓發生這個遺憾的事情他本身公讀生他就是一個弱勢家庭一個弱勢家庭那課業他當然就是好不容易考上了北科大那"},{"start":9450.239,"end":9467.604,"text":"也很努力認真但是因為主管的霸凌要求他學生說課業事業二選一他甚至於還直言說寶寶中心是中央單位不是地方的地方管不到導致最後這個"},{"start":9470.093,"end":9496.428,"text":"這個我們的這個工讀生就這樣子跳樓往生了我要請教主委就是說在工作能不能繼續讀書應該可以嘛對不對我相信活到老學到老在任何一個時期任何一個工作環境都可以自修都可以念書都可以學習除非說金管會特別不可以不會這樣子吧"},{"start":9497.168,"end":9518.434,"text":"不會啦當然當然這些事情之後主管就是董事長請辭然後主管也被處分但是我覺得說事後當然這個懲處一定要但是問題是說能夠挽回什麼能夠表達什麼再多的這些撫恤啊還是一些補償"},{"start":9520.046,"end":9546.543,"text":"都沒有什麼意義就父母來講拉拔小朋友辛苦的從出生到長大成人到就業這個過程我這個不用多講沒有什麼東西可以交換的那事後的這些撫恤啊這些能夠做到什麼我相信沒有人可以說啦可以說得很"},{"start":9548.484,"end":9574.811,"text":"很清楚但是我們看到這個保化中心發的聲明稿說什麼會全面檢視內部的制度啊員工申訴管道啊同仁這個保障員工權益的這個機制這當然要做不是只有保化中心我相信就是全部都要做就是我們轄下的有關的希望未來中央不只是中央機關因為我們現在在中央所以我們要求的是中央機關我們希望說"},{"start":9575.939,"end":9600.177,"text":"做一個典範是那我們的要求跟我們的進步機制的提升還有這個整個控管控管防止這些憾事再次的發生可不可以主委是報告委員剛才其實委員講的我們心情也都非常沉重那件事情我心情知道以後立刻請保安局還有保發中心一定要投訴他們也迅速的做出回應當然"},{"start":9601.078,"end":9627.781,"text":"委員剛才講了這一條年輕的生命是沒辦法挽回我們是非常非常的遺憾我們也像剛剛委員講我們就立刻說亡羊補牢不可以再允許這種事情再發生一條人命就這樣消失那所以我們也請開始立刻請所有單位清查我們所有的周邊單位有沒有類似的這樣的一個辦法或是機制不要讓剛才講那個憾事再度發生對所以我們已經"},{"start":9628.722,"end":9642.658,"text":"在10月11號已經通令所有的單位已經開始就是我們也訂立一個參考範本請所有我們的周邊單位都要去按照這個方式來執行好主委我們不是要口號我們也不是當然當然"},{"start":9643.479,"end":9671.267,"text":"不是只要一個宣示我們要的是作為好不好再跟主委請教時之時付新制在10月1號上路那未來民眾購買的這些醫療時之時付的保單真正落實到一個正本理賠損害補償原則那每次的醫療行為所得到的理賠總額必須要在該次醫療的總費用為限就是最高不會超過這個總費用"},{"start":9674.368,"end":9683.117,"text":"如果買兩家保單那第二家十支十付的保單就只能夠付那個差額不足的部分"},{"start":9686.537,"end":9706.971,"text":"這立場是對的那我也表示支持那對於不孝人是說藉由生病來賺錢這個部分那如果新制實施之後有許多民眾還是會藉由第二張保單理賠他生病期間所產生的隱形損失我講的是真正的損失"},{"start":9707.731,"end":9722.888,"text":"然後他真正需要付出的部分比如說沒有去上班小孩子生病要照顧請假房貸要付這一些的部分生活費的花費甚至有些是比如說他身障"},{"start":9724.669,"end":9731.413,"text":"行動部方面沒有辦法坐公車必須要坐計程車這些產生的實際支出保險業者能不能將類似支出也納入保險的內容"},{"start":9740.279,"end":9767.337,"text":"那時間有限我先一次的所以在這個11日上路的這種時知時負的心智我認為說這是一個重大的改革但是實際需求與困境這一部分保險我們要保障患者基本權益的部分能不能在時知時負的範疇之內考量更多真正的實際支出這就是值得我們探討的問題所以"},{"start":9769.438,"end":9786.837,"text":"希望保險業者說主委你們要求說保險業者能夠根據民眾的實際狀況實際狀況靈活的調整保單內容而不是說一個制度的枷鎖就是把他綁得硬梆梆的什麼都不能變那這樣子的話就"},{"start":9788.659,"end":9791.601,"text":"有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司、臺灣集中保管結算所股份"},{"start":9809.693,"end":9836.209,"text":"得到不應該得到的金額那我想這個政策就這樣推動對主委你說的是不應該得到的這個報酬對對對但是我們講實質實付的另外假設實質的費用不是醫療費用的部分隱形的這些費用隱形的成本這個的話就是我會請保局再思考那另外一個就是其實上我們的商品醫療型有很多種類型假設他是除了實質實付以外他有購買定額給付型的話他就可以用來支付這一塊假設現在他來不及的話他可以來做"},{"start":9836.949,"end":9851.539,"text":"做這件事情當然剛剛委員提到那個部分有沒有可能擴及到醫療費用其他的費用叫做是一個明確而且是真的必須的這部分我會請保局再來演繹這個相關的方法"},{"start":9853.383,"end":9872.398,"text":"好好 處委這個要拜託您了那另外再一件事就是說我們再請教你我們上一次上個會期啊我有跟你討論過防止遊戲點數詐騙的議題是是是那你們提出當時你們提出一個3000塊以上24小時延遲入帳的方案那"},{"start":9874.659,"end":9900.024,"text":"我那時候說這個方案很老民希望你們回去好好檢討那前幾天你們將討論過後的這個方案就是改由發卡行強化遊戲點數交易即時封控這個部分那我的疑問就是說本來發卡行他就已經在有做這些即時封控啊還有做這些管制啊"},{"start":9901.954,"end":9921.547,"text":"是不是因為時間過了那麼久變成說我們金管會老實講讓我們很失望因為這麼長的時間沒有一個有效的作為它只是在這個沒有具體的作為然後只是在上面文字上面加個叫強化"},{"start":9922.689,"end":9942.773,"text":"當原本已經在做的單位,他們已經在執行這些封控,還交給他們做交給他們做,他們也是部署隊就在做啊,他們可不可以做什麼不公的出來嗎?那裡面有一些不一樣,就是說那個現在因為我們的遊戲業者跟銀行正在做一個計畫做一個聯防機制,因為畢竟剛剛講"},{"start":9945.666,"end":9960.863,"text":"三千塊全部都不同意都要延後二、四小時確實剛才提出以後銀行公會提出這個建議以後引起很多人家不便那我們先回到一個我們的瘋狂說但是剛才提到我們還是希望銀行業者跟遊戲業者有一個"},{"start":9961.644,"end":9989.904,"text":"做一個聯防機制讓他這個東西真的在詐騙的人能夠得到一些控制這部分我們正在處理因為這個詐騙無所不在是的每天我們現在在講話的時間這個時間當中或許也有為數不少的人被受到詐騙金額不一啦不要以為說OSA沒有人在用這種什麼很low的方法還是那種傳統的方式什麼都有是真的好不好主委是沒問題"},{"start":9990.784,"end":9993.866,"text":"這個部分一定要穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定穩定"},{"start":10018.152,"end":10021.548,"text":"謝謝召委我會請彭主委好彭主委"},{"start":10026.227,"end":10052.457,"text":"主委好我今天問題很多第一個問題就是美國大選對於整個金融市場的衝擊跟影響不到10天的時間馬上11月5號美國大選的結果馬上就要出爐了但是從最近幾波民調無論是紐約時報或者是CNN的報導從目前看起來風光的民調大概都47比47所以在國際上很多建制派的國際社會都開始做"},{"start":10053.257,"end":10067.789,"text":"不同的準備看起來川普當選的機率是越來越高那這個衝擊變數也都會有我相信我們在整個金融市場上也應該要做一些預估跟準備才對那美國大選的不平靜"},{"start":10069.11,"end":10096.735,"text":"當然在反映在我們的金融市場上有幾個問題點我倒要請教一下主委就是我們現在在美國的公債的直升利率再一次的創新高今年度2024年第二季是達到9兆8千億那在美國在海外市場的這個曝險的比率佔達35.1%這兩個數字都是再一次的創新高那我想請教主委"},{"start":10097.635,"end":10126.005,"text":"對於現在的狀況你有沒有什麼具體的建議剛剛委員的問題有兩大部分一個就是說有關美國大選的結果對臺灣資本市場或金融市場的衝擊我們的因應措施剛剛有非常多的委員這個當然是一個非常比較大的課題但是因為我看到這個保險的這個比值其實是再一次的創新高那我先請教主委我們第三季因為還沒公佈我們第三季的數字是比這個還高嗎"},{"start":10127.76,"end":10151.399,"text":"因為他這部分會因為這個利率的變化他那個部位會影響到對那第三季照理說應該馬上就要公佈了吧那第三季的數字是怎麼樣應該我覺得這部分還是處於比較高的這樣一個數字所以會更高會破十兆嗎應該我覺得應該是差不多這樣一個你現在還高嗎因為下個禮拜就要公佈了你現在還高嗎"},{"start":10152.674,"end":10172.463,"text":"待會兒我請那個銀行局看他有沒有掌握到一些數據再跟委員報告主委你應該知道才對對於川普有可能回來然後整個建制派國際社會大家都在做準備難道這個我們有做準備嗎這個我們對我們的投資部協議一直都有在監控有在做監控那比數可能會更高"},{"start":10173.854,"end":10199.705,"text":"比重可能會更高現在9兆8千億35.1%美國占35.1%比數可能更高其實這很大一部分比如說像我們的那個受險業在這邊就占了很大的一個比重我清楚所以就更需要小心嘛對就更需要小心嘛那第三季的數字你看過了嗎第三季的話剛才我們看到數字是比較低的數字是多少"},{"start":10202.908,"end":10215.24,"text":"27.83兆台幣怎麼會是27.83兆怎麼會差這麼多現在第二季底就是9兆8千億怎麼會是27.83兆沒有是總共的海外的曝險那美國佔整理海外的曝險27.83兆你剛剛說更高這數字到底精不精確"},{"start":10223.168,"end":10251.129,"text":"美國我們現在的統計數據到113年9月份的話所以我現在問你的第4、第3季對36.75季所以更高嘛更高嘛知識有可能接近10兆好這主委我覺得具體建議就是說我覺得這件事情還是對於金融業未來面對於整個國際環境的景氣到底有哪些風險會不會有黑天鵝或者是灰犀牛"},{"start":10251.829,"end":10275.237,"text":"我希望我們所有的金融部會都要做最好的準備這是第一個第一個我不知道你們因應的策略你可不可以簡單的回應我一下當然就是說面向是多面向比如我們對資本市場的部分我們剛剛也有委員關切過我們有一套的運作機制我們會針對不同的結果可能對什麼樣產業影響對我們整個"},{"start":10278.238,"end":10293.019,"text":"資本市場的波動有多大那我們該採取什麼樣的動作我們在前一波大陸的房市大跌之後我覺得我們那一波控制的還蠻好的但是面對於現在美國大選之後的一個結果結構整個國際的經濟結構我覺得要有一些因應的策略"},{"start":10293.399,"end":10308.059,"text":"好 第二點其實我今天好幾個主題喔主委 您上任之後做了很多的努力包括iPhone17包括法規的調適平台包括國人投資帳戶TESA這兩天我都有看到報紙有在寫包括金控的診病包括金融科技創新"},{"start":10310.682,"end":10335.763,"text":"點點點都很多外界都給你很多的還不錯的評價但是業界也有另外一種聲音就是在處理這些事情的時候包括像在處理新興合併的議題上我們看到主委的態度是非常堅定的而且非常強硬但是碰到跨部會的議題的時候看到主委又變成是好好先生yes man變成是尊重財政部的意見"},{"start":10338.291,"end":10358.312,"text":"主委你先不用急著否認我舉幾個例子你就知道我可能要舉什麼第一點就是在TESA的部分TESA的部分我們都知道它是一個個人長期的投資帳戶怎麼樣鼓勵國人願意把錢投資進去目前我看到的其實應該有更多的不同的財稅工具才對"},{"start":10359.468,"end":10381.181,"text":"你現在看到的是說還有減免手續費國人的一個長期投資帳戶他可能是一個長期放子他不會是進進出出像晚短期當沖降稅一樣進進出出所以這個個人的投資帳戶我不知道財政部給你一個是什麼樣的意見你剛剛我從媒體上看到說你是尊重財政部的意見但是我覺得如果是這樣的話這個TISA這個帳戶"},{"start":10383.482,"end":10407.421,"text":"因為很多人他不會是常常進進出出他會是一個長期性的投資我舉泰國來說泰國他是55歲以上才可以提或者是你投資滿5年以上才可以提出來就是說他有很多的政策工具他希望是一個長期穩定的投資所以如果是這樣只有一個減免手續費那到底他會不會成功我是有疑問的那第二點"},{"start":10408.021,"end":10434.8,"text":"主委就是說我舉另外一個例子包括我們當中降稅你本來希望是5年啊最後財政部才給你3年那另外一個你長期在強調說我們希望臺灣你上任收入證件希望亞洲可以變成亞洲資產管理中心可以放寬外匯的管制後來財政部也沒有支持你然後另外一個就是我上個星期問財政部的他說金融營業稅之前你說我們希望可以跨部會的協調爭取你本來希望說降為2%"},{"start":10437.262,"end":10452.239,"text":"後來他還是堅持5%我要請問主委這些是我覺得我覺得你該站在金融業該立即爭取的地方但最後你都用尊重你在很多外界的觀感當中你是一個好好的先生你是一個可以溝通協調的人"},{"start":10453.14,"end":10474.221,"text":"但是碰到跨部會的時候有時候我覺得對你過去長期的政見想要落實你剛開始第一次來到我辦公室你說你希望做一個溫水跟冰塊理論你希望用你的溫水來去融化公部門的僵硬我不知道你還記不記得這件事情所以你的政見政策要落實的時候你就要學會做一個討厭"},{"start":10475.882,"end":10495.031,"text":"被討厭的人有一篇文章說被討厭的人我不知道報紙有寫你這一篇我不知道你有沒有看到就是說很多在專業性上我覺得該立即爭取的地方你不應該是用尊重去配合財政部的意見這是我的看法你等一下你可以說我想先請問部長主委你知不知道金融營業稅去年是多少億去年因為我們是大概總共全年對"},{"start":10505.604,"end":10516.951,"text":"這個詳細數字我記不起來不好意思主委那我就要告訴你我覺得去年是800億就是說協調這些事情當中你有沒有導過政委或中泰院長來幫你跟部會協調這個我們當然有跨部會有嗎你有找長官來協調嗎我們政委來幫你協調有嗎我們有院級的協調這個當然不會是有院級的協調對那你被說服了"},{"start":10535.799,"end":10560.487,"text":"這個其實...現在委員我可以整體做個說明了嗎?可以齁?那就說剛剛提到委員就說其實我們政府是一體的我們的溝通折衝啊我們不會...主委你不用跟我講溝通折衝你的想法專業過去如果是賴總統找你來他支持你的做法我覺得碰到對的事情你就應該是堅持到底"},{"start":10561.067,"end":10576.4,"text":"我剛剛講那三項算是你很大的政策你也在這邊你也是希望達到那個目標但最後只變成尊重財政部金融業的特性其實它就是沒有淨扣的稅額可以抵扣所以其實2001年的時候那時候金融營業稅是降為零現在財政部是打你臉財政部是說這個金融業它有兩個說法中稅有兩個說法"},{"start":10586.809,"end":10593.931,"text":"他說金融業我們臺灣國際在國際上我們金融整體的稅率並沒有比國際高但事實上我們都很清楚知道其實我們的金融業它因為它沒有那個扣除額在進向的扣除額所以事實上在國際上我們事實上比例是比較高的我們的整體的稅率是比較高的這一點我沒有講錯吧"},{"start":10615.362,"end":10633.507,"text":"這個就是說其實上剛剛跟委員報告我們金管會是站在金融這個管理的主管機關我們的態度一直沒有變我們是支持剛才那個金融業稅下降但是我們整個國家有他的政策我知道啊但是說出你這個說法就是一個錯誤的說法嘛不是"},{"start":10635.928,"end":10662.706,"text":"就是他有不一樣的租稅的考量畢竟我剛才講為什麼要尊重財政部不同租稅的考量但是整體金融業的整體稅率事實上是比國際還要高的這句話你同意嗎我沒有講錯吧沒有應該講說他不是一個全面取樣不一樣比如說剛才稅率的部分有各種的稅法我們不是只看營業稅這一項各個國家也不是單一比較這個稅率我想各有各的這些的主張因為世界很多國家稅制是不同的"},{"start":10663.266,"end":10685.234,"text":"那我們當然會有看到比我們高也有比我們低的不可能是絕對高絕對低我只是說這是財政部他是主導我們的選擇我們的態度還是很明確的你如果這樣回應我的話我覺得你長期在講說要爭取臺灣做亞太金融的這個整個市場也好你的努力我都覺得說要讓我們的金融業有更多的競爭力"},{"start":10686.594,"end":10712.283,"text":"其實我們是用這樣子的說法其實跟我們報告就是我們在爭取這個部分我們從來沒有停止過我們但是不會因為沒有爭取到我們現在目的我們就停下來不做你會持續的爭取當然當然因為莊瑞雲的第二個說法來主委你看我第二個說法莊瑞雲說我們現在金融業是飢餓的好學生所以沒有調整稅率的必要所以莊瑞雲的說法是你是教授出身所以好學生就應該被處罰嗎"},{"start":10714.183,"end":10725.606,"text":"這是財政部的立場那我剛才講過我跟委員報告我們在過去不管在財委會在什麼地方我們都是支持要調降的所以你會持續的爭取你會持續的溝通當然我們溝通會持續你對這個結果滿不滿意這個畢竟是一個財政部的執掌範圍"},{"start":10734.562,"end":10752.423,"text":"但是跟你有關耶你是金融業的大家長耶也不是大家長我是站在我們的專業立場你就應該反映金融業現在的挑戰跟困境還有你要把它轉型成我們要做亞洲杯的頭這都是你要努力的方向你現在的牙齒工具都被拿掉啦"},{"start":10753.345,"end":10768.064,"text":"現在沒有並不代表以後不會有但是我們一定要持續的努力不會因為等待這個東西我們什麼都不做所以我們剛才講的就是說我們還是會持續的努力站在我們的金管會議場怎麼會努力你具體的作為什麼時候會出來讓我看到鍾翠芸都已經都已經直接打你臉啦"},{"start":10769.845,"end":10785.61,"text":"這兩項說明就是莊卓宇直接打你臉啦也不是打臉啦報告委員這個就是說我們各自有各自的職長但是呢我們還是態度很堅定講說我們站在金融監督管理委員會立場我們是支持能夠調整這營業稅的但是你會持續的爭取你會有其他的工具出來嗎"},{"start":10787.951,"end":10800.48,"text":"我包括像提撒的部分我上次委員報告過我們現階段是這樣但是未來我們沒有放棄爭取其他的租稅優惠鼓勵的可能性要達到你當時的目標找長官來協調一下找院長來幫忙協調一下我現在在幫你落實你當時來我辦公室還有賴總統的政見不然的話你東西都會拔掉金融業怎麼會有彈性呢"},{"start":10812.369,"end":10836.267,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒謝謝接著請洪孟楷委員諮詢我在這裡主席做一個報告今天因為巡達以後要再處理那個證交交易稅的一個條例跟臨時的一個提案所以我們12點開放會場的用餐好主席謝謝麻煩請金管會主委請金管會主委"},{"start":10841.614,"end":10870.012,"text":"黃議員好好 彭主委好本席有特別注意到我們在金管會這邊也是大家都關心說淨零碳牌的一個部分2050所以說你這邊有落實永續金融推動低派轉型是那昨天也看到金管會應該是下面單位有提到說我們現在要防止綠色漂白是 對不對所以說永續的金融證照那以及還有就是未來的綠色壽信要納金管但是大家就看"},{"start":10871.273,"end":10891.948,"text":"2028年才要納因為我們對於金融機構還有上市櫃我們有定有一定的進程這會按照進程因為畢竟規模大小差距有差所以我們會按照他們的規模大小但是我們推動這個永續、綠色、綠能尤其是像現在環境部他也講是說相關的碳費等等的一個計算以及國際上來講這什麼時候開始的"},{"start":10894.926,"end":10912.428,"text":"主委有沒有概念其實我們現在綠色授信的部分應該是我們現在金融機構都已經在做了而且我們也納入了很多我們相關評比的還有他們自己的內控制度裡面都已經在做了因為其實不管我們是啊所以外界才會質疑是說既然現在都已經有在做那為什麼是2028年"},{"start":10914.266,"end":10932.793,"text":"才會有一個經檢才納入經檢因為我們2028是有個時程那現在的話我們就按照時程來進行當然我們現在金融業所以滿意這個效率嗎還要再三年他其實已經很多開始做我們希望按照那個時程的時候我們才能夠用檢查來要求這件事情"},{"start":10934.346,"end":10963.171,"text":"這會不會讓大家外界覺得有點放水的嫌疑啊所以這這個就是昨天因為你們昨天出來之後媒體網路上討論也覺得是說這是感覺好像要給大家更多的放寬期那你會不會2028年之後還有再往後再延後的一個部分那我們講說如果說現在都已經有在做了大家也認為是說防止漂綠嘛你自己這特別講到是說永續漂綠避免漂綠的事情那既然這樣的話"},{"start":10965.324,"end":10972.096,"text":"現在還有需要這樣的時間到底是效率不彰還是認為是說哪些大企業沒有辦法配合主委是不是再說明一下"},{"start":10972.879,"end":10999.395,"text":"我想剛才委員關切確實就是大家可能會希望說當然這是一件好事還是三年的空窗期也不是因為我們現在實務上已經如果有注意到我們各個金融機構對這個綠色投融資都已經非常非常的在意就是很在意甚至很多大家都會覺得是說它已經變成是一個熱門的議題了所以它甚至很多的投資者都會看到綠色的永續的它都會特別"},{"start":10999.855,"end":11020.203,"text":"好像變成是一個宣傳的一個大家都有這個心啦希望做這件事情我想因為我們站在一個監理立場比如說我們的很多的標準很多都很明確比如說我們現在對於碳排的計算這些東西呢我們有些地方還沒有很清楚比如說我們這個永續經濟活動指引我們也不是全面的推動所以有沒有一定"},{"start":11021.38,"end":11037.419,"text":"一定要2018年還是有沒有可能有加速的可能性當然說能夠盡早的這個鼓勵他們的話我們會盡快來做但是我們要有一個比較合理的這個明確的規定調適期讓我們才能進行公權力的介入"},{"start":11039.127,"end":11067.426,"text":"也不會再延後?有信心不會再延後?我們現在沒有這樣的一個計畫沒有這樣的計畫,就是2028年一定會實施對,我們沒有說現在開始推動就說我要延後,不可能啦對啊當然啦,所以說我現在在講的是說一個你既然現在聽起來是也不考慮提前嘛那本席擔心的是會不會2018年會有再延後的可能性?因為我們整個國家對近年這些都有一定的這個時程啦我想這個我們訂出來也會按照這個時程來進行好,主委那就"},{"start":11068.823,"end":11091.787,"text":"既然說出就要做到那再來第二個部分金融詐騙大家也都非常的關心我特別看了一下我們現在金管會的一個相關的防詐宣導有專區啊但是我說實在話這個專區讓大家還是覺得說是不是隔靴搔癢的我們持續在經濟上是有委員您的經濟的做法"},{"start":11092.794,"end":11116.28,"text":"對,就是我們上次有請我們同仁盡量去在我們的專區部分呢把實際的作為跟對大家宣導那比如說有些比較過時什麼的我們就應該把它...你有沒有看過您的專區?有有嗎?對,有那裡面告訴大家的防詐方法是什麼?比如說它很多的防詐的類型還有說我們該注意的事情還有我們現在的作為但點進去裡面到最後都是告訴大家"},{"start":11117.657,"end":11139.957,"text":"要記得撥打電話165來詢問一下那很多國人在講說我們金管會有沒有更積極的作為在於是源頭管理的部分當詐騙集團把錢騙去的時候大量如果說那個金錢被詐騙了大量的這個叫不正常的去提領款是"},{"start":11140.898,"end":11158.667,"text":"這個能不能做一個試鏡不要說讓詐騙集團被騙到之後馬上他就把錢領走了那從一個專區沒辦法看出我們所有的在比如說我們在銀行端、帳戶端所做的努力很多東西我們也不能在那邊大張旗鼓的去說就像"},{"start":11159.327,"end":11181.302,"text":"我想現在很多的我們對一些警示帳戶很多帳戶的管理我們的機制陸陸續續都持續出來所以我們現在有很多像剛才講的最重要我們在做帳戶的管理這件事情對還有像比如說我們對一些比如說我們剛才提到大家關心的比如說比如外籍人士離開以後那些帳戶就其實我們都在做很多很多的這樣的處置否則的話這個詐騙的帳號會使用會更多但是剛才講"},{"start":11184.784,"end":11193.876,"text":"比如說我們有研究各式各樣的方法來降低這個比如說詐騙的可能還有就是讓他的賬戶的成本提高主委 是喜不喜歡看電影"},{"start":11196.042,"end":11215.899,"text":"家裡有沒有Netflix沒有沒有串流平台沒有時間看Netflix十月我推薦一部電影我覺得這一個也真的是我們監管會所有同仁都應該要去看不是要幫他打廣告但是他是Netflix十月台灣地區也是No.1排行第一的電影叫做《孤注一擲》"},{"start":11216.88,"end":11242.341,"text":"他是大陸騙2023年的他裡面演的就是詐騙的猖狂包括說人頭怎麼樣被騙到國外地區包括年輕人怎麼樣被囚禁包括說怎麼樣利用金融的漏洞來去詐騙甚至他裡面就提到800萬的現金匯到海外之後他們用車手每個人發金融卡馬上在短時間內把那800萬現金給領出來然後就變成詐騙集團就得手了"},{"start":11245.484,"end":11274.329,"text":"那這一個部分就是我們過去到現在其實有關注的就是說當有一個戶頭裡面突然間匯出或匯入大量的資金而大量的資金短時間內被不同人在不同的ATM領出去的時候其實我相信以現在的科技以現在的技術絕對可以做一個示警那能不能做這樣一個示警先把它做一個短時間的凍結確認說這個客戶他是確實是要做這樣的一個交易來防止可能的詐騙"},{"start":11275.289,"end":11304.609,"text":"其實我們金融業在做疑似這個賬戶其實已經做很多這個我應該提醒我會請他們開始去去查一下有沒有這個我講的其實也都是大家只是說這部電影只是他把它拍出來但我要的其實是我們金管會的同仁因為主委大家都對你有期待我希望的是我們的金管會真的能夠看到人家會拍出這部電影說實在這個詐騙手法說不定已經兩三年前了"},{"start":11305.389,"end":11305.749,"text":"王士堅委員質詢"},{"start":11339.331,"end":11361.903,"text":"謝謝主席我請金管會彭主委好請彭主委財政部今天財政部今天沒有到今天沒有到就金管會委員好那個彭主委是委員好你看我問你說這件事你看該不該金管會管金管會下面有銀行局嘛有"},{"start":11362.608,"end":11380.663,"text":"我先前在講我們臺灣房地產為什麼高有一個原因就是說我們銀行體系把大筆的金額以低利的方式貸款給很多不孝的建商讓他們去養地、買地、圈地"},{"start":11381.656,"end":11410.435,"text":"那這些我就一一的查證那也請銀行局提供就是說因為我們央行有一條管制就是你建商空地貸款那有限制你必須在18個月一年半內要動工這一條應該嚴格執行那我就問了問銀行局說那你們有沒有去查查我們先講九大公營航庫就好你管管九大公營航庫他們有沒有去落實這一點"},{"start":11411.996,"end":11434.758,"text":"銀行局給我的答覆你的手下給我的答覆是說這一條應該是中央銀行管的他們不管啦這個不在他們的業務範圍內所以那個主委我就一一的問了九大公銀行庫我自己去把它拼湊出來的金額天啊"},{"start":11436.243,"end":11462.269,"text":"九大公營行庫貸款給這些不肖建商去購買空地超過一年半都沒有動工的高達兩千億兩千億我一家一家問出來的這裡面最惡劣的金額最大的一千一百七十八億竟然是國營的"},{"start":11465.256,"end":11484.417,"text":"最大的前三名土地銀行那土地銀行這麼傲慢的態度我們銀行區拿到一點辦法都沒有因為三商銀有啦 義銀是模範啦義銀只有12億他在這個部分的貸款700億"},{"start":11487.948,"end":11493.371,"text":"7000多億裡面他只有12億當然華銀、彰銀要再加強一下啦這個有100多超過133億、148億華銀、彰銀當然對不動產這個貸款高一兆5000多億那你有133億這個比例也很高最惡劣的就是土地銀行"},{"start":11510.543,"end":11523.301,"text":"土地兩大可以推說我是專業我就是做土地啊做房地產融資可是他變相的在幫助這些不肖的建商去買地、養地、圈地"},{"start":11524.634,"end":11548.917,"text":"那所以你認為呢你認為這個該不該銀行去管該不該我們金管會來管你認為中央銀行加注的這條限制是不是在貸款條件銀行授信貸款給建商的時候那貸款合約上面就註明了如果建商違反合約規定"},{"start":11549.897,"end":11562.207,"text":"這些銀行局要不要管?你認為?上禮拜委員有關接這問題那我們就有去了解剛剛數字確實像委員提到的在2116億那我們這個部分這是一個"},{"start":11569.432,"end":11584.922,"text":"央行有這個規定我們當然是我們在我們是金融業的管理機關我們在檢查的時候呢一定也會去針對這一項是否有符合規定我們會去檢查這塊確實是我們會來處理啊會處理要怎麼處理是要求建商"},{"start":11586.142,"end":11605.247,"text":"應該立即還款立即動工要怎樣他要馬上動工動工他要有規劃要有申請建築執照等等我看他們就是拖著耗著嘛他們可能就是憑借跟銀行良好的關係我在"},{"start":11606.954,"end":11635.708,"text":"三個月前我就列出十大二職建商貸款金額喔他們負債金額這十大都負債金額都70%以上最高的負債金額竟然高達89%天啊他用我們善良百姓辛苦賺的錢存在銀行的錢被他們用那麼低的利息拿去買土地"},{"start":11637.399,"end":11662.125,"text":"來炒作房地產然後逼使我們國民我們這些消費者們去購買他們高價的房地這是這多可惡的事情欸要把關的首當其衝你啦!金管會跟財政部財政部也有關九大公營行戶董事長、總經理都他派的"},{"start":11664.453,"end":11679.044,"text":"關股這些股份都在他手上當然啦我認為你們銀行局的責任是比較大因為銀行局有專業的這個金融專業可以去應該去查查不是嗎"},{"start":11680.309,"end":11699.919,"text":"那這個責任是不是由金管會由你們銀行局負責那你要再來你要怎麼處置他們處置這些預期的建商收回還是怎麼樣報告委員這個齁我們如果查到有這個情況的時候呢我們會請他做改善改善當然有些比如說可能調整那個貸款的條件"},{"start":11701.98,"end":11713.797,"text":"還有就是有些比如說後續真的跟原來目的不符的話那可能是要做一些後續的處理這個部分我們會因為我們已經提那個查核已經提改善意見請他們來處理這個事情"},{"start":11716.767,"end":11735.081,"text":"你多久給我一個答案比方說土銀1180億這麼高的金額而已請他詳細列出來早點工作給他做嘛叫土地銀行說這1180億到底哪幾家啦是不是那些二職的建商"},{"start":11736.465,"end":11757.387,"text":"有一些建商我上次舉過這十大二值建商他不只炒作房地產他不只高負債他在工地安全這個我們企業我們政府正在希望推動ESG他完全違反ESG各項對企業"},{"start":11759.588,"end":11785.563,"text":"他們的要求企業主該負的責任沒有一項做得到公安最多的也是這十大要不然就是不幸讓工人身亡、重傷一堆臺中那一件還搞到臺中的捷運垮掉這些都歷歷在目就是這些會犯這個規的同樣在貸款的時候也是有那麼大的問題"},{"start":11786.687,"end":11811.904,"text":"他就是先借到再說啦借到阿你們賠最大啦他就是這個意思阿人也鹹鹹阿不然你來拖是這樣子嗎是這樣子嗎還有順便查一查這是不是有人為的勾結啦有人為的勾結因為擺著這個這麼明確你錢就是要借他去購買空地去炒作土地"},{"start":11814.108,"end":11823.244,"text":"這很清楚的嘛我認為銀行金融業尤其土地銀行他是我們公營行庫裡面非常非常"},{"start":11824.983,"end":11847.705,"text":"高數值的人員去的航空百分之百關股結果竟然這樣子我高度強烈質疑這個有勾結好不好那另外我先前就講我們推亞太金融中心我們亞太資產管理中心我們希望國外的資金來給我們臺灣管結果我們自己的資金我就舉授權就好"},{"start":11849.565,"end":11873.992,"text":"三十二兆的資金有百分之七十二十二兆跑去國外投資我們自己的錢跑去給國外管難道我們要說服世界各國說你們的錢要讓我管那奇怪這一點矛盾這造成兩個大問題第一個問題我們在國外海外投資買這些債券基金匯率的風險第二個戰爭的風險"},{"start":11878.074,"end":11900.311,"text":"兩個多月前、三個月前就跟你提到說我們有7家受險總共持有1357億的俄債俄國的債券這些現在風險都來啦從5月開始他們就不給付利息啦問他們要利息他們說戰爭打完了再來算天啊1357億現在"},{"start":11903.755,"end":11927.071,"text":"光這7家授權公司他們抓預期的損失預期信用時他們已經抓了210億1357億就抓了210億做預期損失這很天...我覺得這個實在是很莫名其妙二屋打仗臺灣中槍二屋戰爭我們受傷會很奇怪嗎"},{"start":11934.011,"end":11954.171,"text":"我們遠在地球的這一頭我們又沒招誰又沒惹誰哪有去賠這麼多錢星光人獸的資本氏族率也因為他也加入這個啊1357億我相信你們去查就知道所以導致他資本氏族率也受到影響啊"},{"start":11956.344,"end":11970.269,"text":"當然希望能說還有其他問題啦這個改天再說但是我認為這個部分要立刻這個趕快立刻積極做也就是說你們應該洽請財政部洽請財政部就針對這些資金我們放眼放腦的要他們"},{"start":11976.34,"end":11986.84,"text":"陸續回到臺灣投到我們臺灣的公共建設他們那些藉口通通不能算他說第一點我們臺灣利率低第二點他說我們臺灣市場小沒得投資"},{"start":11988.1,"end":12008.89,"text":"利率低這些受險公司也是因為這麼低的利率我承認我們臺灣利率低但是受險公司也是以我們的低利率下去算期望值賣給我們的投保戶不是這樣嗎他也是低利率啊低利率的期望值賣"},{"start":12010.373,"end":12039.845,"text":"那他憑什麼跑去國外說海外這些利率高我要去多賺一點賺他們賺賠我們所有保險人賠這是非常可惡的事情第二個他說市場不大所以我認為你們要跟台中部好好合作也就是說我們台灣公共建設需要錢我們不只社會住宅不只這些交通建設捷運這些台鐵機場的擴建這些等等"},{"start":12040.475,"end":12065.562,"text":"我們還有長照啊我們長照更是需要相當金額的投入所以應該就是輔導來交通單位內政部的各單位還有衛福部關於長照的部分輔導他們來設立債券設立這樣子的債券基金然後讓我們回到臺灣"},{"start":12067.987,"end":12093.437,"text":"不然我們自己回來買就對了我們各項的公共結算都有很多自償性啊也有利息嘛要買就買臺灣這才有道理投資臺灣自己錢留在臺灣我們自己管理自己的錢這樣我們才能成為說亞太資產管理中心我們才有說服力說服國際上的錢說你的錢來讓我管"},{"start":12094.597,"end":12104.601,"text":"要不然70%給國外管的時候,我們只能說服誰?說服非洲的小國而已,不是嗎?好,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝委員提醒接著請楚英委員質詢"},{"start":12121.095,"end":12124.342,"text":"謝謝主席辛苦了有請彭主委好彭主委謝謝"},{"start":12128.374,"end":12152.431,"text":"委員好主委好因為外委會的委員時間比較短我就先抓重點直接來問一下就是我相信其實主委來自於這個業界那我今天要提問的是跟保險相關的提問就是我們現在的車險的部分電動車然後燃油車跟這個所謂油電混合車基本上現在大家都知道就是電動車因為它結構的問題那麼"},{"start":12155.951,"end":12184.916,"text":"電池是他的心臟那麼對於他來講他的出現根據媒體的報導就是他的車損率高達72%媒體是說如果有100元的話那麼有72元就要做理賠了那麼對於很多的車主來講如果是傳統的燃油車的話那麼是不是就會變成是說我放在同樣一個破裡面我同樣都是汽車的保單可是呢我是電動車我是油電車或油電混合車這個本身在整體的理賠當中是不公平的"},{"start":12185.296,"end":12214.605,"text":"那我們知道現在到4月我們就會有所謂的這個油電電動車相關的這個保單了那麼但是在這個保單的使用上面是不是應該要區分那麼真正的屬於電動車的這個保單什麼時候會上路這部分我們在那個我可以請局長跟您回答這個問題嗎好是報告委員那個保單的部分我們9月1號就上路了"},{"start":12215.581,"end":12244.256,"text":"9月1號會確定上路是那麼在汽車強制責任險的部分會有區分嗎因為我們知道現在的強制責任險的部分就是只有分機車、汽車那麼在這個部分如果說電動車箱型上就會覺得說電動車它本身它的理賠率就是車損率比較高的時候那麼在第三強制責任險的部分要做一些區分嗎還是說目前還是維持原有的因為我們知道"},{"start":12244.736,"end":12256.845,"text":"我們之前也曾經討論過就是有關於如果是電動的輕型腳踏車那麼我們其實是要把它納保嘛那麼在這個部分強制責任險有需要做跟進嗎費率有需要做差異的費率嗎"},{"start":12258.487,"end":12286.254,"text":"目前有討論嗎是報告委員那個電動汽車的部分這部分是那個電池方面就是能源部分的一個差異那這部分在強制車險部分目前是沒有一個差異好所以說目前就是有關於電動車專屬的這個相關的保險就是9月份會來上路是但是現在本席收到的狀況就在像下一張目前電動車是不是沒有秉持車險也沒有人來承擔"},{"start":12288.314,"end":12308.063,"text":"所以是不是在電動車的保單當中相對的多樣性是比較少的我現在目前所得知的這個比如說像以特定的這個廠牌他們的車主來講他只有三家願意承擔那麼9月1號上路之後是不是可以讓電動車的保單多樣性可以有一些增加呢 局長"},{"start":12310.087,"end":12336.887,"text":"報告委員那個假是以是秉是目前是都有的都有的對好那麼言下之意就是說對於因為我們知道現在開電動車的人越來越多那麼某種程度上也會認為電動車在對於環境上面是相對的環保的包括歐洲有許多國家甚至於是認為說電動車是他們接下來的另外一個趨勢所以在保單的部分的多樣性可能就要請金管會再多了解"},{"start":12337.287,"end":12362.667,"text":"但是本席一直非常關注的就是我說這種車聯網車其實事實上也就是電動車它的核心就在於它的電池電池自然我相信除了臺灣之外國外也有非常多的案例那麼本席非常關注的就是所謂中國製造的電動車是不是入侵臺灣又或者是說中國製造的電動車當院長也認為"},{"start":12364.729,"end":12377.406,"text":"電動車是中國製造尤其是電池來自中國的時候必須要嚴加控管那麼本席想問的就是那電動車的產地尤其是電池的部分要不要納入風險係數的考量呢"},{"start":12380.349,"end":12405.685,"text":"過去三星曾經使用過中國的電池發生過在飛機上直接自燃手機的狀況那當然這是手機那麼我們現在在電動車當中最重要的核心就是它的電池那麼對於來自中國的電池或者是來自於中國產地這樣對於電動車最重要的核心的部分有沒有考慮"},{"start":12406.806,"end":12415.745,"text":"納入投保的風險參考的係數這個可不可以思考跟規劃一下謝謝委員指導那這部分我們納入後續的一個演繹參考"},{"start":12418.131,"end":12442.143,"text":"我本來還有下一個題目但是因為時間就快要到了主委我會特別提電動車的原因是因為我想電動車無可避免的它會成為未來在這個車用上面非常重要的一個趨勢那麼對於保單的優化然後對於投保人會可以有更多的選擇這個部分本席提出來也希望金管會能夠了解"},{"start":12442.563,"end":12460.435,"text":"最後就是有關於電動車的核心就是電池當電池來自於中國而中國電池的安全性受到質疑的時候就是第三點我希望對於車輛、產地的係數納保的部分能夠來做一些考量好嗎就是這三點"},{"start":12461.415,"end":12477.062,"text":"好 謝謝委員的那個建議我想第一個提供因應環境的變化提供多樣化的產品滿足市場這絕對是這個市場要做的那再來考慮到風險真實的反應它的費率也是應該要做的好 謝謝主委"},{"start":12480.928,"end":12493.816,"text":"主席在這裡做一個報告一下如果我們就是受訪的委員我們希望就是說在會場以外受訪謝謝那接著我們請吳宗憲委員謝謝主席我們請今晚會主委好請主委"},{"start":12513.709,"end":12528.778,"text":"主委我主要是要跟主委討論一下虛擬貨幣的問題這部分我主要是從司法案件的角度切入下去了解一下就是說去年我們統計詐騙案件是3萬多件那這3萬多件裡面有1萬多件是虛擬貨幣那它佔的金額是53億"},{"start":12535.282,"end":12562.009,"text":"那跟全年的詐騙金額88億其實它是佔了6成的以上所以說詐騙集團很喜歡用虛擬貨幣把錢匯出方便把錢匯出去這個其實是一個現在實務上面的問題那前沒有多久桃園地檢署才起訴了一件就是詐騙集團勾結的律師還有臺銀的行員就把騙來的錢1.1億用泰達幣他把它洗到國外去"},{"start":12563.109,"end":12591.828,"text":"主委我想跟你說明一下我們刑案辦很久了我很理解一件事情任何一個財產犯罪人民最在意的是錢拿不拿得回來至於被告會被判多久那是次要的事情他們最在意是怎麼樣把錢拿回來可是呢這段時間不管破獲再多的機房再多車手錢還是沒有辦法留在國內甚至回到被害人的手上所以我想請教主委現在透過洗錢防治法"},{"start":12593.249,"end":12608.336,"text":"遵循聲明的虛擬貨幣業者現在目前到底是幾家現在總共有26家那有幾家是外國的現在詳細數字應該只有一家一家是外國的那我請教一下那你要怎麼樣"},{"start":12609.864,"end":12624.623,"text":"掌握人民的錢被洗到國外去如果照這樣講你看有八成的臺灣照遠見的那個調查有八成的臺灣人他是把虛擬貨幣是投資在國外的交易所那如果照你這樣講的話那其實對國外的交易所根本"},{"start":12625.684,"end":12652.791,"text":"劃外之地嘛你沒有辦法掌握嘛對不對然後3月我記得今年3月的時候金管會來這邊備詢有委員就是有提出說這個境外交易是目前最大的洗錢漏洞政府要趕快管那你6月的時候來這邊備詢你也有提到說你說對這個問題啊你會找國外的政府還有機關合作還有一些國際組織來合作共同解決主委這是你說的對不對是"},{"start":12653.311,"end":12661.009,"text":"好那現在10月了啦除了剛剛說那26家本國還有你說有一家那個他國的啦那到底"},{"start":12662.011,"end":12689.178,"text":"有在臺灣我們民眾能使用的這個虛擬貨幣的業者有多少家我想這樣好啦全世界幾千家嘛對不對可以使用的有幾千家嘛對不對對非常多好那你現在控管到的就是國內26國外1家這是你們目前能控管所以我請教你6月的時候你備詢的時候說會跟國外政府還有國際組織合作那目前掌握了哪些國家有哪些國際的組織跟我們合作"},{"start":12690.782,"end":12704.993,"text":"我們現在當然是跟洗錢組織是合作最密切反洗錢的組織哪一個反洗錢組織?就是我們的亞洲反洗錢的APG來我們這邊做鑑定的那個APG上次我們還有辦評審員的訓練其實我們在這方面一直都從那邊得到很多的協助跟資訊"},{"start":12712.219,"end":12740.938,"text":"但是不管怎麼樣齁你看一下你跟APG合作而已嘛那APG它也不算是一個什麼官方的組織嘛那你這樣合作效果在哪裡或是它的會員國也有限啊它不是全世界都是它的會員國嘛因為我這個我以前在法務部也是受那個洗錢防治的訓練都有看過這些資料但是現在有個問題就是說像你剛剛講的國內26家、國外1家但是我剛剛有提到世界上有幾千家等於是無法管理"},{"start":12741.698,"end":12769.606,"text":"照這個比例來說我們現在那個打炸事法裡面通過有一個就是我們這次把那個VASP的帳號已經納入跟那個電資信用卡跟銀行帳戶一起來做管理啦那比如剛剛委員提到那個錢還不回來我們那個條文裡面也有提到假設我們查扣的話經過比如說可以有更快速的法源可以返還這個錢你講的是查扣嘛對不對但是我現在要告訴你的虛擬貨幣的問題是它馬上匯出國外啊是查扣不了"},{"start":12770.646,"end":12795.741,"text":"我們在實務做了那麼久了是查扣不了不是說查扣拿不回來我想主委你要弄清楚這件事情好不好那因為太多錢流出去所以6月的時候檢察官有開一個研討會他也是一直在罵說儘管會是消極的不管理消極的不管理這是檢察官們在研討會的時候的結論所以不但控管不了案子也讓民眾的錢留不在臺灣就都匯出去了"},{"start":12796.221,"end":12820.952,"text":"那控管不了就會發生前端應該控管好的行政機關沒控管好搞得後端的司法機關焦頭爛額所以我跟你說齁我覺得啦我們現在要注意幾個點就是說你金管會應該做的事先你要我們在預防那個虛擬貨幣的犯罪嘛那事終我們要想辦法把被害人的錢留在臺灣那事後我們就透過執法去找到這些犯罪證據對不對所以齁"},{"start":12822.273,"end":12841.289,"text":"我還是要麻煩你們金管會不要把問題丟給後端前端沒有管理好後端都很難管理所以這個問題麻煩你們注意還有就是最後最後30秒其實我知道你們不是只有管這個洗錢這件事情其實整個市場的交易"},{"start":12842.62,"end":12859.699,"text":"一些交易的安全、健全消費者保護嘛那資訊安全、貨幣發行這個你們都要控管但是你們可以藉由落實這個控管可以去達到監督的效果不要讓後端的司法機關讓那些檢察官、調查官、警察一直罵你們金管會他們罵很兇"},{"start":12860.76,"end":12876.765,"text":"然後民眾也氣得半死因為我跟你講雖然我們的法制化大概是中斷在世界是中斷班對於這個虛擬貨幣的法制化是中斷班但是我們國人使用網路的那個比例太高所以你一比較起來那個數字就很可怕"},{"start":12877.185,"end":12903.481,"text":"其實謝謝報告委員其實消極不作為這樣的指控是對金管會是不公平的啦因為其實我們在過去很多作為我們也針對這個做專案報告所以說其實上當然指責很容易但是我覺得我們還是會努力來做剛剛委員指正了這個東西可是就只有你們能管啊你說這個指責不公平那只有你們能管別人管不了那你說我管不了就算了嗎不是只有我們比如說還有其他的部會也都要一起來努力一下沒關係啦就是說"},{"start":12904.401,"end":12921.577,"text":"這樣啦那還是請金管會兩個月內能夠交付一個報告全民痛恨痛恨詐騙然後錢迅速流到國外在座的每一個人委員大家都有同感好不好國人也很在意這件事金管會主委這是你主責的事情麻煩你好"},{"start":12922.358,"end":12931.723,"text":"把這個事情再落實那兩個月內能夠給我們一份報告看接下來怎麼去控管這個虛擬貨幣的部分謝謝主委謝謝中線委員接著我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席本席想邀請主委主委委員好"},{"start":12950.438,"end":12979.758,"text":"主委在推動亞洲的資產管理中心政策上你在10月24號前幾天我們看到你的訊息要帶動整個臺灣金融的產業持續進步目前我們整個亞洲資產管理中心所需要的法規、架構都已經規劃完成嗎?初步第一階段其實這個法規是非常龐大的計畫我們針對金管會所轄的部分我們先處理"},{"start":12980.738,"end":13006.057,"text":"就是你們的部分已經都完整嗎?對,其他各部會的還在做化裝飾所以金管會會跟你宣布了會跟高雄市政府來合作那其中一個城市要提出首個亞洲資產管理中心的示範區一個資產管理專區一個資產管理專區那這個計畫大概什麼時候進行然後什麼時候會完成呢?可以去執行呢?"},{"start":13010.4,"end":13024.469,"text":"最近都跟高雄市政府在做非常密集的協商比如他們那邊可以提供什麼樣的一個行政上的誘因我們這邊就是鼓勵金融業者能夠到他所提供的場地還有這些"},{"start":13025.71,"end":13042.885,"text":"長所去做一個據點的設置比如說把我們的私人銀行那個境外分行的實體分行能夠在那邊設置然後形成一個專業人士的群聚然後來慢慢的那個建置一個所謂的資產管理的專區能夠做境內跟境外的管理"},{"start":13044.52,"end":13071.489,"text":"那這個呢本席要跟你討論這都很好也是一個示範區但是我告訴本席告訴你的我們的台中你有沒有看到台中上次有委員關心我說任何城市我們都非常的歡迎來跟我們一起討論那你就要積極囉因為台中是目前是在全國裡頭我們在盧市長的團隊領軍大家努力我們是全國投資額最高"},{"start":13072.589,"end":13095.834,"text":"各項的評比也都低迷位置也都非常的適中所有的我們現在臺中市最缺的是什麼高級的商辦大樓那為什麼呢因為全世界各國都希望來臺中進駐所以我們才能夠達成這樣的一個成效所以我積極的建議主委臺中是你最好的選項"},{"start":13097.794,"end":13119.626,"text":"你如果將我們亞洲資產管理中心它不是示範而是執行區那你的成效絕對是事半功倍你的看法呢我想剛剛跟委員報告過因為高雄它過去幾年已經開始有做一些準備而且很多已經被完善任何一個城市我們都歡迎它發揮一個特色來跟我們來"},{"start":13120.726,"end":13139.869,"text":"想念這個活動你積極好不好開個窗口跟我們談我們臺中市中委非常樂意我們希望在我們亞洲的資產管理中心能夠在我們的臺中那因為就陳儒我們之前跟國發會主委在討論AI園區所以現在國發會也非常的積極"},{"start":13141.345,"end":13162.418,"text":"他們密切的在合作所以我就具體建議也得到你的應許我很高興所以我們一起加油好不好台中市是一個非常好發展而且可以幫助整個臺灣的一個金融產業是我們歡迎任何一個城市都來參與因為我們知道資產管理能夠增加大概您所預估的是5到6兆"},{"start":13163.058,"end":13186.895,"text":"你也是希望4年能夠增加到10到12兆6年能夠增加1兆美元所以在這樣子本席要告訴你的是如果是只有一個示範區是不夠的那當然這是全國的意志來做是當然的所以我們的方向是一致的所以我們台中務必要達政成功好不好"},{"start":13187.695,"end":13206.951,"text":"我們一起來努力也歡迎各個城市如果他有這樣的一個規劃可以跟我們聯繫積極聯繫積極推動那接下來本期要請教南非南非這個事件發生之後10月24號你們也表示了那你們會對南非的負險的這個呢大概有641.86億"},{"start":13210.013,"end":13216.156,"text":"受險佔最多500多億、574億那其餘的是它為國營我們國營的這個部分是67.86億那我們國內對於整個南非幣的計算這個基金我們也達到了2666億所以在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":13232.561,"end":13257.459,"text":"請教主委你的作為怎麼去應對其實剛剛也有委員關心這件事情因為第一個當然就是說這裡面很多都是各式各樣的投入有些是比如說直接購買他的金融商品那有些是比如說對他的一些放款有些是你講到重點了也就是他的政治風險增加的時候那金管會你是不是會提高南非幣計價商品的風險的這個權數呢"},{"start":13259.56,"end":13277.771,"text":"會不會當然有關風險的部分這是一個很客觀的數字對齁應該是比如說我們站在風險觀點的立場應該就會真實的反映它真實的一個情況對包括那會計制度也會它的政治風險是增加的啊對就是說像比如說剛才提到俄羅斯它的會計制度那你要怎麼應對呢"},{"start":13278.952,"end":13305.953,"text":"第一個當然就是我們金融機構他們本身來講的話他很多這種投資都已經是個契約在那邊了就也沒辦法說立刻就說做這個但是我們希望第一個那你就看他曝險危險當然不是像我們後續來看的話就像比如他投資的當下是沒有問題當然後續的變化他應該有各自的他們的自己的那這些變化怎麼辦我們面對到這樣的問題不希望面對但是"},{"start":13306.994,"end":13327.859,"text":"就是已經面對所以你去盤點精準方案好不好是,我們會來持續的請金融機構關注對,你把方案給本席,但你們如果問他這樣的問題要怎麼去應對好不好,多久時間可以給本席我想差不多一個月之內給你一個報告好,一個月齁我最後一個議題給你這個功課也就是說我們的這個身障朋友"},{"start":13329.076,"end":13354.881,"text":"我們希望有善的金融有善環境那你們也提出了龍溪式的ATM我這很感動很感動但是這是你剛開始一兩個月在推動那也有很多的銀行都願意配合的這個便利商店但是我看到也就是說實際上你會有困難因為它寄來的這個寄來的這個它的環境"},{"start":13357.421,"end":13374.533,"text":"所以本席要建議除了我們的自己的銀行是不是率先的先來努力的來推動至於便利商店因為現在很多人的生活會在便利商店每天息息相關那你們是不是應該要有一套方法"},{"start":13375.393,"end":13389.925,"text":"去告訴便利商店請他來協助那你不告訴人家那你也沒有什麼誘因誰跟你跟你做呢你們有沒有方法這裡齁就是友善金融公民擔心努力點30秒好那我拜託你好不好因為你剛開始我很重視這個方案龍溪的這個金融友善"},{"start":13398.231,"end":13398.992,"text":"主席我們請主委請主委"},{"start":13427.14,"end":13446.264,"text":"這個警政署的那個打詐儀表板有統計今年8月的詐欺案件的財損數在離島地區金門、馬祖、澎湖這個三個離島地區在8月份的財損攘闊了前三名增加了財務損失馬祖增加一千多萬"},{"start":13447.984,"end":13464.813,"text":"然後金門增加了2000多萬澎湖增加500多萬以比例來講前三名增加幅度來講成前三名那可見詐騙集團可能認為立法院居民好騙吧矛頭對準我們這裡你的想法是怎樣你覺得可能原因是什麼"},{"start":13467.396,"end":13496.42,"text":"這個當然原因很複雜還要看他那個詐騙的類型不過就是我們現在看到最多詐騙的類型應該比例最高應該投資詐騙也許是因為資訊的關係導致他們對這個警覺性比較投資管道可能比較缺乏比如在台北市可能接觸的方方面面的人可能相關的投資管道可能會比較多的訊息或比較容易知道說這個是詐騙那當然還有一個可能原因是因為離島居民的儲蓄率蠻高的"},{"start":13496.8,"end":13519.29,"text":"就存滿多的以我們金門來講現在民間的存款你知道金門民間存款有多少錢嗎這要請委員指示你猜看看我們的戶籍人口是14萬長租人口大概一半吧7萬你要不要猜看看是有平均高於全國的水平嗎全國水平是多少呢平均存款這個"},{"start":13521.752,"end":13539.138,"text":"我們今天的儲蓄不是儲蓄率就儲蓄的總金民間儲蓄的金額是一千多億一個大概十萬人的地方儲蓄存款這不是算投資不是算房地產就存在銀行的現金今天如果每個人都去領可以領一千多億出來"},{"start":13539.818,"end":13565.425,"text":"所以說這原因當然你不能說金門賺比較錢因為金門所得是比較低的相對臺灣平均是比較低的但可以存這麼多錢其實另外一個角度來看就是因為我們金門非常缺乏投資的管道所以當然要看到LINE上面網路上有一些說這個某某某可能名人或什麼有什麼訊息投資很多尤其很多儲蓄人都是比較有公教人員退休的比較省吃儉用實際上我也接到陳情安"},{"start":13567.245,"end":13568.066,"text":"銀行、帳戶、管扣"},{"start":13589.747,"end":13604.253,"text":"第三方支付、虛擬貨幣信用卡、完善、虛擬貨幣等等很多的東西我看到你們在做這個防詐的部分當然有做一些努力但是我們看到的在金管會"},{"start":13604.773,"end":13627.007,"text":"一百一十二年十一月十五號那時候有請銀行公會做一個移設詐騙境內金融帳戶的預警機制你們有規劃有七家本國銀行先行事辦其他本國銀行將陸續上線嘛那即便你們這樣做審計部在你們這個這個算防詐是重要施政的這個查核報告裡頭有說這個預警機制就是設詐境內的帳戶預警機制轉入帳戶的灰色名單的平台還要"},{"start":13632.33,"end":13646.246,"text":"持續追蹤辦理、研議、擴大金融機構辦理首長請問說你們這個機制現在的進度是如何現在這個陳副委員關心我們有兩個一個是移設詐欺境外帳戶因為實施成效不錯那從我們111年開始做"},{"start":13648.368,"end":13675.553,"text":"原來7家現在有擴大嗎有有有我們接下來馬上會增加10多家明年應該全部都會全面性明年是110人就全面性的會實施對就是境內疑似帳戶的那個預警帳戶這個其實是真的蠻重要的這樣子就是被詐騙的話匯進去剛吳中興委員說很多人債務不是你抓到就抓翻是被詐騙是不是可以拿回來這個其實很重要然後你們的業務報告"},{"start":13677.253,"end":13701.681,"text":"這個要繼續努力 詐騙大概是太猖獗了第二個你們的郵報有提到說對高齡金融的行動措施高齡經濟或者現在所說的壯世代我也希望你們要繼續提出一些措施不要讓這些高齡的這些長者或是壯世代退休人的錢都變得好像那個詐騙集團眼中的肥一樣這一點可能你們要再提出很多的措施這個請你要繼續努力"},{"start":13704.702,"end":13729.219,"text":"然後接著我們提到我們上次提到一個你準備做一個TISA嘛推出準備規劃的這個帳戶那上回我聽到您在說當主席聽到您在說日本的有INISA是稅嘛那因為我們本來就沒有什麼資本利得啊這個證交就不用稅證交所得就不用繳稅那所以爭取租稅減免在臺灣比較困難這上回你說的嘛爭取額外外加的就外加比較困難因為本來就有些稅是"},{"start":13730.48,"end":13745.33,"text":"這個跟日本可能就不一樣但是你看到日本你也知道日本是今年已經擴大到免稅期間無限期免稅投資金額達到1800萬日元在台灣這個要做亞洲資產管理中心或者說我們要做一個金融特區的這個情況下"},{"start":13747.211,"end":13775.987,"text":"如果只是像很多委員說你只是把所有的優惠包在一起是只是讓好像禮專讓一些禮專當然有更系統性的去介紹相關的金融產品當然賺其中的手續費以外這個對國人現在國人的誘因在哪裡啊感覺就是沒有什麼特別的誘因啊為什麼國人要特別去參加你這個TISA的這個賬戶沒有誘因啊我們上個禮拜討論過很多嘛是是是"},{"start":13777.627,"end":13802.352,"text":"當然就是說我們剛剛也有人關心這個問題就是因為確實我們的稅制比較特別對我上個禮拜講過所以我知道說因為本來資本利得我們本來就沒有稅但是如果你沒有一點點誘因的話不管不一定說稅或者是一些政策上的一些什麼誘因的話你要退這個會非常辛苦我們都希望你成功我們都希望這個臺灣戰爭成為亞洲資產公司但是說在地緣政治上有一些比較辛苦的還有"},{"start":13803.732,"end":13830.8,"text":"政策嘛 政策我們可以協助說立法院該修什麼法我們大家一起來推動但是你也要讓百姓覺得他可以接受或他願意去做這件事情啊你有什麼秘方嗎或你有什麼想法嗎現在好 各位委員大家好謝謝委員的支持我想剛剛提到我們這個部分我們先把這個制度建起來我們持續的去找到各式各樣的誘因比如說剛剛講其實我們也並不放棄其他任何的我們也在持續在加商"},{"start":13833.179,"end":13849.27,"text":"你隨便講一點看有什麼你覺得比較困難的需要我們協助比如說我舉例講這個稅來講對不對稅來講你們也許不好意思說因為同樣是部會經過立法院財政部可能說我堅持本來就是免稅不能再優惠不能再怎麼樣"},{"start":13849.71,"end":13870.422,"text":"譬如說我假設我們參考國外對於所謂的第二層的部分呢他們有像我們比如說我們現在已經有自提6%的那個就是自提6%可以遞減課稅那說不定可以朝這個方向來努力有沒有新增其他的稅務因為其他國家都有第二層的這樣的一個規劃譬如說我上面上個禮拜聽了一下稅領恩譬如說我們財源部的時候我們27萬的儲蓄免稅對不對27萬那個什麼免稅"},{"start":13874.324,"end":13899.706,"text":"因為你也可以在某個部分再做一樣不然你做27萬免稅大家就一直去要做到那個額度就存款嘛因為都有免稅你這個優惠可以換成是別的啊對不對對稅損來講也不一定會有那麼大的稅損嘛這問題就在27萬額度之內說不定可以做一些不增加新的稅務有沒有可能做到這一點我給一些什麼樣的政策讓這個你的提撒才可以推得成嘛當然謝謝委員如果只是把所有東西包一包放在某個地方我看所有的委員都說聽了20幾年啊"},{"start":13901.488,"end":13927.411,"text":"大家就會覺得好像舊瓶裝新酒事實上也是舊酒也了無新意你要推動也非常困難我們大家都希望這個是可以成功但是總是有一種如果是政府的一些平行部門沒有辦法做我們可以來協助在這部分你們要提出一些想法立法委員都希望社會進步的吧那講到這個資產管理中心大家都有提到但你也說其他很多縣市都可以做那當然現在討論比較多是高雄"},{"start":13928.092,"end":13952.711,"text":"那高雄的話那弱角高雄當初說的是說我不知道你們用什麼樣的規劃是用境外資產管理特區規劃呢還是會利用自由貿易港區設置管理條例的14條來解套這是雙軌的剛剛提到就是說假設用我們現在金管會所能用的政策工具跟地方政府能夠用的政策工具我們是不需要動用到這個所謂的這個自由貿易港區設置條例這是其中一個"},{"start":13953.331,"end":13972.146,"text":"那另外一個呢當然還有自由貿易港區設置條例第14條第一項他可以有一個設置一個對外國的資產管理公司那交通部的意見呢交通部初步來看我們正在溝通中溝通就是說事實上我知道上次在議院一邊提出來這個願記的就是部會之間提出來的時候我相信交通部好像對這件有保留吧"},{"start":13973.287,"end":13991.178,"text":"我們是持樂觀的態度你們持樂觀交通部呢我聽到他們說好像不怎麼適用吧我聽到的我的訊息是不正確的我還是希望你們可以過啦所以說如果這部分也需要跨部的溝通你也可以請立法院相關的其他單位也可以來協助嘛"},{"start":13992.318,"end":14005.843,"text":"不是交通部說不行就不行嘛我們要退一件事情這個是總統要退亞洲資產管理中心是總統要退的一個部會如果在法條上的解釋那麼過拘泥於法條上的東西國家到底是要怎麼前進嘛 對不對"},{"start":14007.663,"end":14033.273,"text":"我覺得金環有時候真的很客氣在跨部會之間財政部說不行啊這個稅不行啊那好啊我們在這個不做的情況下這個好江部說這個港區要10條之一這樣不行啊這個可能不適用啊因為從前都沒有這樣的例子啊可能也不是啊所以我們就很客氣好那我們再想辦法不好意思你要執行的對我們會來努力啦你要執行的是國家是總統的政策這些部會如果說這麼不配合總統的政策"},{"start":14034.033,"end":14054.45,"text":"不用這麼客氣讓大家知道讓立委知道讓政府知道讓百姓知道我們國家往前走不是有些人說這樣不行的不能因為一些保守的觀念讓國家不能往前嘛是這個好嗎?謝謝委員的這些意見所以第一個齁三件事情這裡面有一件也是立法院的事情TISA這個賬戶齁這個增加退休準備齁那這個政策怎麼推大家可以多多討論是"},{"start":14055.171,"end":14082.903,"text":"律師這個部分當然現在律師在上個會期在我們立法院已經過不知道為什麼又有什麼問題沒有你們可能要主動去來因為我們這個投顧投信法已經修了也出了委員會好像有一些小問題不知道是什麼問題也許你們也對我們會來努力趕快讓他通過很多法令過了20年都永遠過不了這樣子其實產業界都會慢慢的對政府這個失去這個信心那我們說招攬國際人才來臺服務或是把我們臺灣在外面管臺灣人錢的人的那些人回來這個也是"},{"start":14084.204,"end":14103.175,"text":"大家繼續努力了好 以上好 謝謝議政召委那接著我們請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員陳廷輝委員、陳廷輝委員、陳廷輝委員不到黃國昌、黃國昌、黃國昌委員不到接著我們請吳立華委員諮詢"},{"start":14112.331,"end":14140.718,"text":"謝謝主席有請主委有請主委委員好主委好首先我先謝謝財政委員會在星期一有到屏東去做原鄉的財政考察那在那個當中呢大家很關心的關於原保地能不能夠到銀行貸款當天原民會有表達他們已經朝你準備公告原保地貸款信用保證的作業要點"},{"start":14142.119,"end":14152.476,"text":"當天與會的金管會同仁也有提到會提供給銀行誘因但是因為沒說得很清楚是不是可以請主委稍微說明一下"},{"start":14153.527,"end":14174.698,"text":"我想這個其實也陳孟委員關心過很多次啦我們也是希望這件事情能夠趕快有個能夠在比如說銀行的他整個貸放實務上能夠更符合這個概念比如說在過去的時候希望有這個信保以後呢再來比如說他有公開的件價那再來就可以我們可以再比如說再把這個放款我們放在那個ESG的評鑑裡面"},{"start":14177.3,"end":14202.977,"text":"鼓勵我們的金融業能多多的照顧到這個普惠或是原鄉的這些的那已經寫出來了嗎對我們那個我們ESG那部分已經放進去了好那謝謝好謝謝那今天我看到業報有特別提到關於金管會的一些重點業務例如普惠金融或者是防詐的措施那我也要來關心這個部分因為"},{"start":14203.777,"end":14227.907,"text":"根據衛福部的資料今年來講65歲的失智人口高達35萬而且未來的10年、20年其實它成長的幅度是非常的急劇那在這裡也因此我們看到在眾多的詐騙行為當中其實我們的高齡者還有失智長者"},{"start":14228.467,"end":14253.441,"text":"他們已經成為他們的肥羊那不僅僅是黑道甚至是自己家裡人其實也都會利用長者的失智高齡來去做詐騙的行為所以在友善的部分我想這個部分當然是金管會很重要的一個業務那我也今早的報紙有看到主委您有提到"},{"start":14254.221,"end":14268.566,"text":"你們掌握到的現在詐騙最新的關鍵字已經不再是如果有行員問你提這些錢要幹嘛已經不再是被教導的我要去做裝潢喔你說是要買黃金"},{"start":14269.926,"end":14298.633,"text":"那麼我想詐騙手法是推陳出新啦可是我們來看一下高齡遭詐騙的前三名的類型我們看一下他是平均每天都會發生十幾件而且是屬於假投資或者是冒用親友的名義借錢還有我們常常聽到的你的帳戶被凍結所以要趕快怎麼樣所以我想要先請教主委"},{"start":14299.734,"end":14308.701,"text":"針對這些高齡的失智者的他們的這個詐騙日益猖獗成為對象今晚會有沒有什麼樣的因應措施"},{"start":14311.32,"end":14333.582,"text":"這個確實是我們因應整個時代潮流我們必須要面對的問題就是說當然第一個我們在訊息的這個阻擋上面是一個很重要的工作這是並不是針對只是因為高齡者因為讓我們的訊息無法散佈比如說我們的投資詐騙廣告能夠盡快的把它下架讓在時間上越短我想受害者會越少是"},{"start":14333.982,"end":14354.645,"text":"那當然就是說隨著我們整個的金融措施比如說剛才也有那個立法院也有在提就是說壯世代雖然在其中某些高齡的人他可能在未來處理自己金融業務的時候他的能力會越來越喪失那實際上這個部分我們未來在金融服務就要考慮這一點那比如說未來的保單"},{"start":14355.706,"end":14382.358,"text":"很有可能我們客戶已經沒有能力去執行他甚至忘記他的這張保單我們該怎麼辦再來像比如我們的存款他沒辦法執行的時候有沒有辦法像國外說指定第二個代理人然後事先指定這些都是我們未來在金融服務提供的時候都要進一步考慮的點那主委你們有沒有在做分析統計就是觀察這幾年你們推陳出新的因應措施去對照"},{"start":14383.138,"end":14412.758,"text":"我們詐騙集團推陳出新的這些手法有下降嗎還是上升是道高一尺磨高一丈還是邪不勝正其實我們大概知道這個現在詐騙成為一個產業它不可能完全的消失但是我們在機種業在防詐過然後一定要採取比如說專業化、系統化常態化的組織化來做這件事情所以剛才提到確實我們看到有些數字已經開始比如說有在下降但是還是非常的高"},{"start":14413.959,"end":14428.411,"text":"所以還是要繼續努力那我想今天我關心的是這些失智者因為對他們來講操作機台寄那個密碼、填寫資料其實對失智者來講根本就不可能了"},{"start":14428.951,"end":14457.45,"text":"他更需要的是第一線的人員來引導他、協助他可是往往他們感受到的是可能會被拒絕所以我有看到其實你們有推出一個2021到2025的失智者經濟安全保障的推動計畫但是我們看到數據銀黃端那邊是表達說有六成的服務人員做過失智者的服務但是其中的七成他說他對"},{"start":14458.971,"end":14479.305,"text":"負失智者他沒有信心因為他沒有辦法確切評估他當下的意思也沒有辦法辨識到底這個人是不是真的有失智可是呢對我們的客戶端來講那些失智者的家庭他們有3乘5的一個負向的經驗覺得說不友善遭到拒絕"},{"start":14480.166,"end":14506.092,"text":"所以這個部分想要請教主委已經推動第三年了那不曉得有沒有去評估成效那怎麼樣去落實這樣的一個培訓當然剛剛委員提到確實是我們在初步實施的時候確實有這個狀況那我們為了改善這個計畫呢我們就跟衛福部合作看能不能針對我們的行員進行更專業的培訓對這些失智者的理解以及他們應該如何因應這我想這是我們未來一個工作的一個重點"},{"start":14506.972,"end":14527.345,"text":"我們來看一下他山之石因為在國外我們也看到以美國來講他是會去針對那一些對老人剝削、失智者剝削的給他加重刑責或者是說他會提供通報的義務也有金融代理人的制度在英國"},{"start":14528.186,"end":14544.094,"text":"他們可能針對長者他們在開戶的時候會設立第二聯絡人然後在交易的時候會取得第二聯絡人的同意那在日本呢他是醫療單位跟銀行端、金融端去做一個整合支援"},{"start":14544.674,"end":14573.033,"text":"甚至他們還會去配置醫療人員在銀行裡面去協助做這樣的辨識或者是保險的契約提高他的彈性讓親人可以來申請解約那我就再問一下主委像這樣的什麼剝削通報義務、第二聯絡人跟醫療整合資源、彈性契約等等措施金管會這邊有沒有想過要去做這樣的跟進或研擬"},{"start":14573.955,"end":14574.377,"text":"其實這個我們在過去其實"},{"start":14577.25,"end":14603.39,"text":"都有針對這個做研究比如說剛剛我有提到第二聯絡或第二代理人的問題其實在國外推行的時候我們初步會覺得是蠻好的這個是可以來考慮但真正在落實的時候其實很多複雜的家族關係其實有時候我們還要更細緻化來想就是說很多其他國家的制度要落實在這邊我覺得精神我們絕對是可以來研究但是我們要落實在國內要按照自己的國情來剛才提到其實這是我們面對到的"},{"start":14604.951,"end":14621.94,"text":"長態的問題了以後高齡不見得到失智他已經開始整個對自我判斷能力開始下降的時候這些都是我們要保護來善待的一個客戶像跟醫療單位合作對能夠協助這樣專業的人才進入金融單位這個蠻好的啊對"},{"start":14623.602,"end":14642.379,"text":"做起來有困難嗎當然我覺得只要牽涉到人的部分都要更細緻一點這個我剛剛跟委員報告這個觀念概念我覺得都很好因為這個我們也是要努力的方向只是其他國家實施成功的經驗很值得我們取法但是我們按照我們的國情要做一些微調這些都是我們未來需要來研究的地方"},{"start":14642.839,"end":14657.975,"text":"謝謝主委可是我們在國內我們也看到一些很不錯的做法我相信您也比我更清楚像啟美醫院他就有主動的去發揮他的社會企業責任去跟台南的這些銀行"},{"start":14658.896,"end":14677.588,"text":"業者金融單位去做了一個臺南市失智友善金融一條街啦我相信你應該清楚那或者是像一些保險業者像南山他們呢有到一些原鄉特別是文建站他們會去做一些他們的這些照護計畫或者是宣導計畫那我們是想說"},{"start":14682.031,"end":14696.343,"text":"其實金管會你們自己就有一個失智者的一個保障推動計畫除了走入校園走入社區你們有沒有考慮說要進入到文件站去服務這些可能的這些失智長者"},{"start":14697.541,"end":14720.475,"text":"當然這些能夠增加我們的觸及率跟覆蓋率的當然都是我們努力的方向只是說需要比如說剛剛委員有提醒到我們當然會朝這個方向去增加它的接觸跟覆蓋我是希望說未來我們再問的時候看到你們已經有這樣的做法那甚至是像你們儘管會從2020年起有推動信託2.0這個信託計畫"},{"start":14723.257,"end":14743.99,"text":"那像這種我們看到2021、2022好像受益人數還有他的這個財產本金有停滯甚至下滑的現象我是不太曉得說其實這個對老人很好啊自應行的安養信託這種金融商品挺好的但是我們看到好像停滯不前甚至下滑是出了什麼問題嗎當然有"},{"start":14745.691,"end":14746.171,"text":"主席主席主委"},{"start":14770.646,"end":14795.089,"text":"我想金管會其實還是擔負著很重要的一些金融的責任那我們很希望針對這些高齡失智未來我們是超高齡社會化的來臨那我們特別希望說關於金融商品還有一些友善金融的推陳出新也希望金管會能夠繼續的來為我們加油當然這個跟每個人都有切身的這樣的感受我們會來努力"},{"start":14795.809,"end":14807.486,"text":"好,那也希望就是兩月內如果有相關的報告也可以提供辦公室一份好,謝謝主委,謝謝主席,一起加油那接著我們請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":14827.131,"end":14834.598,"text":"來謝謝主席有請彭主委銀行局莊局長來請主委還有銀行局局長"},{"start":14838.188,"end":14861.417,"text":"國有銀行會在中國有設立分行大概有25個分行在中國設立分行這幾年地緣政治改變它的獲利最低在其他各大多數分行裡面在中國所設立的分行它獲利最低但相對的風險也最高這部分未來對國有銀行有沒有相關的約束"},{"start":14863.034,"end":14878.743,"text":"其實我們在過去在比如說中國大陸地區的曝險我們一直都有獨立的監控比如說他們在做的一些的放款或是我們都有加壓就是比如說我們正常的壞帳提撥是1%在那邊就是要1.5%"},{"start":14880.044,"end":14900.066,"text":"這些其實上從過去的數字也看到其實他們也已經觀察到整個環境以及市場的轉移他們也開始下降這個部分以及蠻明顯的所以他們有注意到這個風險跟獲利的改變對不對對獲利其實不管它市場上面的風險如果最糟的狀況發生兩岸發生戰事這些銀行的分行如何自保"},{"start":14901.731,"end":14925.571,"text":"這個當然是一個非常極端的狀況那我們現在的話就是假設我們現在銀行的部分大概是將近9000多差不多一兆的這個曝險在那邊那當然對銀行的比重現在差不多20%左右中國在真相定義在國家安全定義是敵對國家是對不對他共經這個這個每天共經在那邊盤旋騷擾"},{"start":14927.592,"end":14955.762,"text":"所以你要未以籌謀雖然你說是極端的狀況但極端的狀況也可能隨時都會發生是 這個部分其實我們剛才也跟委員報告他們現在整個整體曝險占他淨值的大概是20%左右其實我們在這個掌控的這一塊也希望盡量能夠降低這個曝險好您知道這個問題就好另外您這邊報告裡面第5頁壯世代金融相關措施"},{"start":14958.205,"end":14973.797,"text":"什麼叫壯士貸?這是一個跨黨派行政院籍由陳時中政委所督導的壯士貸整體計畫我們負責壯士貸金融壯士貸現在的定義就是有兩種一是50或55歲以上的人口50或55歲你這個定義都還不清楚"},{"start":14976.779,"end":15000.241,"text":"就是現在原來是55嘛現在有人建議還要再把它往前一點為什麼要針對壯世代要推出相關金融政策因為主要是根據未來人口結構的推估未來台灣可能在二三十年後這個世代的人會成為我們台灣的主要的壯世代他年紀會增加可能這個對就是以上的這些壯世代變60年60歲以後也65歲以後都可能變壯世代就是希望"},{"start":15001.002,"end":15028.543,"text":"就是已經進入到幾乎是準退休的這些人接下來怎麼樣因應整個社會成為主流人口的時候我們整個因應怎麼做政策我是提醒主委政策就是不需要花中取寵政策是針對有需要有需要然後政策推出來是也的確有發揮這個金融相關的功能我想這部分才去推動另外我請教一下這個主委政府官員去國外換匯"},{"start":15031.19,"end":15058.936,"text":"會不會受到特殊待遇據我所知應該不會不要說您部長安妮斯諸位你到北歐一個國家去不要說你出了機場你沒有當地貨幣你去換貨幣你會不會有特殊待遇因為我上任還沒出國過至少我以前經驗並沒有任何這樣的確診有一個案例齁一個中央級的這個民意代表去這個北歐國家"},{"start":15060.097,"end":15078.264,"text":"北歐國家但是他不是用EUR你出了機場還有很多這個換錢的地方嘛然後他去換匯一換匯當然需要護照護照一看是PEP是一個就是我們講"},{"start":15079.642,"end":15097.26,"text":"重點那個防治的政治人物或是這些是不是有相關的規定是就是說剛剛跟我們報告我說我上任沒出國說不定我因為我的名字假設是你出國去換會也會要求你是不是他會詢問你是不是政治人物對不對或者政府官員"},{"start":15099.639,"end":15121.501,"text":"他這樣就會可能會列為是反洗錢的重點他的資料會細緻到什麼程度這個部分的話就是因為我們在應該是資料是如果提供了是國際相關的協約還是這個這個議定會不會連配偶連家人你都知道連住所都知道"},{"start":15123.383,"end":15135.21,"text":"這個有沒有侵犯到個資到那種程度啦至少比如說我們在據我了解啊他連配偶是誰都知道他連你住家在哪裡都知道他說你可以換但是你要提供證明"},{"start":15136.828,"end":15154.96,"text":"另外一個英文的證明說你的住所在哪裡這個可能是我們在國際反洗錢裡面的一個實務他認為這些所以你說這是國際反洗錢的實務任何國家只要是政府官員、民意代表、中央民代你去換匯都要受到這種詢問"},{"start":15156.401,"end":15182.656,"text":"據我所知假設你被列入那個名單裡面的話就會多一些程序誰會列入那些名單現在有些機構會提供這樣一個名單給金融機構或是給其他參考那臺灣有哪些人列入這些名單其實我知道應該是我們政府的首長像比如說像各位委員應該也是假設我去他也會要求我提供相關資料嗎有可能有可能因為我們成為這個身份是一個公開的資料"},{"start":15183.916,"end":15204.705,"text":"公開資料如果他連配偶都知道那是肯定當別論比如說假設我這個人的人名跟我的身份還有我的基本配偶資料基本他會你有你的護照號碼對不對對或者你相關的這個工作的背景然後你可能有photo有相片他如果連配偶跟你的住所都知道"},{"start":15206.618,"end":15230.753,"text":"我覺得這個是可能要再去看看狀況不過我知道曾經有人是因為同名而被匡列就是他的名字是這樣不可能同名又同日生嘛剛剛已經到了那麼細緻的資料的部分您說的就是說只要中央級的明代政府官員包括您要去國外換會都會接受相關"},{"start":15232.744,"end":15236.515,"text":"的詢問他可能會用進一步的了解對我講他那個那我們那個局長會不會"},{"start":15241.872,"end":15270.271,"text":"局長你會不會受到這種待遇因為你是主管人員報告委員因為我都不會在國外換匯我都用信用卡所以還沒碰到這個問題不過回覆委員的因為基本上重要性的政治人物其實他都有一定的公開性所以有很多銀行他會去買商業資料庫所以您剛剛說的那個應該是銀行或者是換匯的公司不是單一國家"},{"start":15272.453,"end":15294.913,"text":"對,他是比對,因為幾大商業庫應該全世界各個金融機構就是用那幾大商業資料庫那商業資料庫裡面會收集各國的政治重要性人物所以應該是比對那個資料庫出來他來要求是這樣,我說給您聽他說你要提供另外一個英文相關的文件證明你才能換匯"},{"start":15297.301,"end":15315.492,"text":"那誰會又帶其他的英文證明除了護照之外確實如果臨時性當然不會去準備這個當然你現在去了解一下他所了解的資料會不會細緻到連配偶連你的住所都知道好我們請主委跟局長研究完這個主委你以後去歡會搞不好你也會發生"},{"start":15322.449,"end":15338.42,"text":"應該會在場所有的官員去換位你們試看看你們可能多準備一些這個國外英文資料好謝謝謝謝委員的提供這個訊息謝謝志偉委員我想這個是一個非常珍貴的一個議題那請就是研究完了以後跟邱志偉委員來做報告謝謝"},{"start":15341.853,"end":15354.097,"text":"蘇清前、蘇清前、蘇清前委員葉言之、葉言之、葉言之委員鄭正琴、鄭正琴、鄭正琴委員不在謝謝那就請羅明財委員諮詢主席各位主席各位出列席官員主席請彭主委好彭主委"},{"start":15369.518,"end":15373.752,"text":"何維文想請教一下在美國總統選舉"},{"start":15376.058,"end":15400.135,"text":"如果是川普當選大概對臺灣股市的影響會如何大家當然是預期不同的產業有不同的影響這是大家從他的政見跟他發表言論裡面提出來的當然剛剛早上很多委員關切會不會對我們的半導體業特別對我們的龍頭這個會產生影響所以他這個當然昨天"},{"start":15400.695,"end":15429.122,"text":"有稍微有些訊息就可能產生影響所以大家會很關注這個議題那確實我覺得這是一個國際上矚目的事件對臺灣的資本市場一定會有所影響川普當選臺股會不會上漲到3萬點這個報告委員我們今晚會沒辦法預期這件事情我們只是在在乎就是說這個我們的資本市場能不能夠穩定安全的進行這個所有的運作跟交易"},{"start":15430.25,"end":15452,"text":"如果延續拜登的一些精神全世界到處戰爭如果是川普當選可能就是直戰會不會有這樣的說法當然媒體有很多種的專家的報導這也是我有看到這樣的一個講法對所以世界和平股市就繼續漲"},{"start":15455.063,"end":15473.579,"text":"那當然是穩定的這個環境當然是股市一個很重要的基礎我看今天這個當沖江稅決定要讓他通過吧當然我們是站在這個今晚的立場我們的態度跟整個都表達得非常明確我們是支持的我的提案是五年"},{"start":15475.117,"end":15503.496,"text":"我們原來的提供給財政部也是5年但是財政部後來他們提的方案是3年我問了幾個委員大家希望還是可以5年如果待會晚一點要處理的時候希望如果是5年大家都支持的話我們就讓他5年通過好不好我們還是支持行政院的決定沒有你要支持立法院的決定"},{"start":15505.236,"end":15533.342,"text":"如果問金管會立場的話我們雖然提供給這個財政部的意見剛剛跟提到了也跟委員做過說明了但是一定要過因為不過來不及了當然我們希望他能夠通過能夠繼續因為你在剩幾個月年底之前就到了是而且立法院還有二讀還有三讀對那有期間的限制確實速度要快一點主任你們現在"},{"start":15535.856,"end":15561.11,"text":"其他的單位你們算是最有錢的也沒有是因為我們金管的單位比較是金融業才是你看存款保險公司現在裡面有多少錢存保裡面的基金嗎這個營業稅的特別準備金是2100億剛剛局長跟我們講說他這個營業稅的準備金是2100億對"},{"start":15564.741,"end":15592.63,"text":"報告委員那個存保這邊保管的就是金融業的特別準備金是約2100億左右夠不夠我覺得因為這個基本上是在有經營不善金融機構要退場的時候才會需要動用到那以目前現在各個金融機構財務狀況都非常健全的狀況之下暫時應該是不會使用到"},{"start":15593.687,"end":15616.62,"text":"現在平均預放是多少現在我們的預放是0.16跟歷史上比起來相對的好應該是非常低的水位應該是最低的水位另外證券交易所裡面錢也不少吧臺灣證券交易所"},{"start":15620.095,"end":15644.343,"text":"現在主委你的所有相關的單位是兵強馬大最強的時候確實現在金融商業的獲利還有就是我們包括我們的資本市場確實是在過去來講是算是一個非常非常好的一個狀況那現在日均量大概多少錢現在大概日均量加起來應該是將近5000億5000億喔對我們也希望說這個量穩健的發展"},{"start":15650.032,"end":15677.288,"text":"甚至迎合你未來的亞洲的資產管理中心希望更多的外資等11月5號以後更多外資可以進來因為如果川普當選就比較不會有地緣政治的問題不然我看上一個拜登的延續他就到處世界點火所以我們也是希望看這個局勢"},{"start":15678.533,"end":15705.545,"text":"如果川普當選他也是鼓勵虛擬貨幣的交易吧是不是他對這個比較持正面的態度好那你們要做出一些規劃如果川普當選的話金管會要大幅度的開放虛擬交易市場我們還是按照我們的步驟按階段的來做這個市場的一些的這個管理剛剛也有報告過我們先從專業投資人開始"},{"start":15707.608,"end":15731.022,"text":"如果是川普當選你要迎合世界的潮流美國開放當然我們跟著開放啊對,我們剛才提到就是說我們會定期來評估實施以後國人在接觸這樣一個產品以後的後果跟反應以及他們的結果如何我們再來決定是否擴大本席希望你現在趕快做一些因應的措施A當選B當選你們要怎麼佈局"},{"start":15733.323,"end":15760.628,"text":"是,我們也都有在這個進行這樣的一個情況的演練跟模擬快一點嘛,因為時間馬上就到了是,跟委員報告,剛剛那個有個數字差異修正一下我們現在是日成交均量是4200億左右是,4500億還可以那臺灣證券交易所現在裡面現金很多吧還可以大概多少錢我們的現金是"},{"start":15762.975,"end":15789.077,"text":"四百億四百多億喔?對哇 你看 很多錢啊但這個錢就是要好好利用主委 你要讓這個F4裡面不要浪費其實我們交付他們非常多的任務啦也希望善用這筆他們的這樣的資源來來讓金融市場或是整個社會更好齊交所呢?齊交所還有集保應該都"},{"start":15792.988,"end":15809.413,"text":"應該都不少錢吧委員好因為期交所規模比較小大概只有證交所的一半兩百億是也不錯啊都是坐擁百億金三銀三那那個集保勒"},{"start":15817.662,"end":15841.6,"text":"林董是那集管目前大概380億左右喔要加上900多億欸欸這大概歷史的新高啊對以前喔我在沒見大哥以前都又小又弱做什麼事也都沒錢你們這樣好的時候應該要好好整修一下比如說"},{"start":15844.136,"end":15863.731,"text":"這個政企局裡面那個沙發已經20年沒換了我特別去看那個沙發應該不存在了喔壞掉了喔對一些舊的東西該換還要換還有一些資訊軟體等等那OTC呢OTC錢漏不漏啊"},{"start":15871.616,"end":15880.535,"text":"田董去那邊比較不習慣,因為以前101那邊資源多,相當小地方啊大概多少錢?"},{"start":15882.328,"end":15904.566,"text":"我們基金累積到現在有100億但是現金比較少我們現金可以動用的大概是6億多65億、100億OK 好 謝謝那加一加都是超過千億的包括那個存保存款保險2000多億"},{"start":15907.373,"end":15925.479,"text":"當然還有其他啦我覺得應該是在保發中心錢比較多吧保發中心其實錢不多啦因為那是保發基金比較多一點保險安定基金多大概多少安定基金420億左右420億OK"},{"start":15931.403,"end":15959.471,"text":"那其他加一加,所以主委你掌管的其實是中華民國最重要的不過我想每個部會都很重要啦只是說因為我們剛好這裡最近他們的經營或是這樣都很努力所以累積一些成果那我們希望能夠善用這些資源就你資源很多,要拜託你一件事情下一次黃仁勳來臺灣的時候你拜託他可以到臺灣發TDR好不好"},{"start":15960.888,"end":15985.059,"text":"我們請周邊啊周邊這些都是蕭永、山正都很強的啊有沒有辦法請像這個NVIDIA公司回臺灣分拆上市所以我們想這個委員這個提示我們會來研究一下我大力研究因為我在幫你啊因為主委你說你要打造"},{"start":15986.415,"end":16012.184,"text":"臺灣成亞太的資產管理中心你的能見度要高當然要世界級的黃榮勳因為臺灣人嘛透過他們的關係我知道他們裡面可能有人跟他認識如果沒有認識就算了經濟部長、郭部長說跟他認識應該認識機會都很多我們希望可以讓國際公司回臺灣上市好不好嗯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":16017.922,"end":16034.793,"text":"謝謝羅明財委員主席在這裡宣告今日登記花園的委員均已行達完畢現在進行討論事項第一跟第三案的臨時提案的"},{"start":16036.308,"end":16054.727,"text":"第一案至第三案及臨時提案的處理共五案先據那個預計先讀的時間是12分鐘先讀完畢以後進行協商那請議事人員協商那在這裡以法案沒有相關的人員可以先行離開"},{"start":16062.499,"end":16077.659,"text":"宣讀臨時提案第一案經查期貨業商業同業公會已在今年9月完成期貨商開戶專訓作業管理及提供高齡客戶金融服務自律規則之修正刪除70歲以上期貨交易人"},{"start":16078.22,"end":16096.447,"text":"無法開戶之資格條件及交易限制大幅開放投資資格限制回歸業者自行就65歲高齡客戶之KYC評估機制有鑒於期貨商品乃複雜性高風險以小博大類型的金融商品其投資自信為較需具備專業性及風險承受"},{"start":16102.388,"end":16125.773,"text":"建議金管會仍需持續要求業者做好投資人士適性評估及充分說明投資風險之義務避免衍生交易爭議應請金管會就目前各金融業高齡客戶投資總額及近三年度爭議案件數統計資料於三個月內向財政委員會提出書面報告提案人吳秉瑞、賴會員郭國文"},{"start":16127.898,"end":16154.784,"text":"第二案金融監督管理委員會下檢稱金管會於去112年3月即已奉行政院指定擔任據金融投資或支付性指支虛擬資產平台的主管機關虛擬資產屬新興監理項目且市場變化快速又詐騙及洗錢罪犯以監督利用虛擬資產作為犯罪工具原建議應加速啟程早日完成專法必將虛擬資產納入妥善監理"},{"start":16157.204,"end":16166.052,"text":"說明一本113年9月金管會在虛擬資產專法制定進程報告中揭示將分四大階段管理虛擬資產"},{"start":16169.176,"end":16189.509,"text":"虛擬通貨平台及交易業務之事業下稱VASP最終走向社專法管理分別為第一階段從VASP洗錢防治辦法中開始納管VASP第二階段推動VASP社工會並制定自律規範管理第三階段將在洗錢防治法中"},{"start":16190.229,"end":16209.013,"text":"增定VASP登記制明確VASP定義及對非法業者刻意行責等第四階段走向專法二、虛擬資產發展快速網路資料顯示國際上有上達萬種加密貨幣存在加密貨幣交易總人口可能在3.5億至7億戶之間加密貨幣總市值"},{"start":16213.768,"end":16224.124,"text":"約為新台幣76.99兆元每日市場交易總量則約為新台幣3.24兆元且逐日快速成長中三虛擬資產證常用在"},{"start":16226.468,"end":16247.963,"text":"交易轉移支付一致投資但亦有用在詐騙、洗錢等犯罪領域先進國家多以逐漸納管包括RESP之監理與自律相關資訊之公開透明五部分國家已建立所謂虛擬資產指數作為投資及監理依據洗錢防治亦將虛擬資產列入重點管制項目"},{"start":16249.524,"end":16270.33,"text":"對於虛擬資產的監理除請金管會加速進程外尚需在穩健步伐的基礎上加強各級同仁學習相關職能密切注意市場變化掌握市場及時資訊與國際市場接軌健全監理制度強化投資人保護等面向提案人吳秉瑞、賴會員、郭國文"},{"start":16272.591,"end":16286.149,"text":"第三案有鑒於財政部113年主辦臺北國稅局承辦之雲端眾數區一期級點數網路活動發生部分中獎者有重複中大獎之情勢"},{"start":16287.691,"end":16311.227,"text":"與其質疑該抽獎活動之公平性嚴重影響政府機關之公信力允請財政部於週內查明、釐清113年結合統一發票推行辦理全國性重大施政統一發票對獎APP全國推廣活動委外服務案是否確有不公、舞弊情形並公布抽獎活動之中獎率提案人黃珊珊、賴氏寶賴會員嚴寬恒"},{"start":16314.67,"end":16336.778,"text":"第4案一令洗錢防治法修法通過金管會提出虛擬資產服務之事業或人員洗錢防治登記辦法草案虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防治洗錢及打擊指控辦法修正草案預計今年12月上路為業界面臨我國銀行不分風險"},{"start":16338.118,"end":16355.677,"text":"一律拒絕與VASP業者進行業務往來導致VASP業者難以符合新增定制辦法若因實務操作導致多數業者無法從事業務將導致產業地下化危機進而削弱金管會監管VASP業者之範圍"},{"start":16356.778,"end":16373.18,"text":"也令相關執法制定令形同虛設原提案請金管會銀行局與我國銀行進行協調並持公平待客原則來審查RESP業者申請案並於三周內提出書面報告提案人顧國文、林曙雯、賴慧媛、伍麗華"},{"start":16374.562,"end":16396.679,"text":"第5案 面對我國售險業發行之內權位保單近期層皆委託外商投信甚至部分合約限定指投資境外基金與ETF以致於放寬內權位投資規範並無重大本土投信之效益不應放入資產管理中心之重大投信方案中原提案請金管會重新評估"},{"start":16397.76,"end":16411.304,"text":"放寬為我全委投資之必要性以及其與壯大本土投信之關聯與效益並於一個月內提出書面報告提案人顧國文聯署人賴會員吳麗華臨時提案部分宣讀完畢證券交易稅條例第二條之二及第十二條條文修正草案案"},{"start":16425.43,"end":16442.415,"text":"行政院提案對照現行條文修正條文第二條之二第一項延長施行期限至一百十六年十二月三十一日止修正條文第十二條第一項增列代報金及罰還刪除第二項及第三項規定其與同現行條文"},{"start":16443.995,"end":16461.507,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案修正條文第二條之二增訂第二項落日條款文字為自中華民國114年1月1日起至116年12月31日至同一證券商受託買賣或證券商自行買賣同一賬戶於同一營業日現款買進與現券賣出"},{"start":16465.009,"end":16476.378,"text":"同種類、同數量之上市或上櫃股票於出賣時按每次交易成交價格依下列規定稅率課徵證券交易稅不是用第二條第一款規定"},{"start":16478.035,"end":16507.134,"text":"一、施行後第一年千分之一點五二、施行後第二年千分之二三、施行後第三年千分之二點五原第二項一列至第三項第八條刪除第九條之一將現行五倍至十倍之罰還規定修訂為五倍以下修正第十二條第一項增列代報金及罰還並刪除第二項及第三項規定第十六條增列第二項本條例中華民國全年、全月、全日修正之"},{"start":16508.527,"end":16530.336,"text":"第二條之二及第十二條條文自公佈日施行第八條及第九條之一條文施行日期由行政院定制委員盧明才等二十人提案對照現行條文修正第二條之二第一項當沖稅率減半延長十四五年展延至中華民國一百十八年其與同現行條文"},{"start":16532.728,"end":16549.155,"text":"委員邱志偉等19人提案對照現行條文刪除第12條第二項規定第三項一列至第二項委員賴士寶等25人提案對照現行條文修正第二條之二第一項延長施行期限至118年12月31日之第12條刪除現行條文第二項及第三項規定"},{"start":16555.629,"end":16579.661,"text":"委員吳立法等19人提案對照現行條文修正第二條之二第一項延長施行期限至116年12月31日止修正第12條第一項增列代報金及罰還並刪除第二項及第三項規定委員林楚英等19人提案對照現行條文修正第二條之二第一項延長施行期限至116年12月31日止"},{"start":16582.833,"end":16603.056,"text":"委員、代會員等37人提案對照現行條文修正第二條之二第一項延長施行期限至116年12月31日至刪除第12條第二項及第三項之規定委員李昆城等22人提案對照現行條文修正第二條之二第一項延長施行期限至117年"},{"start":16605.444,"end":16621.214,"text":"委員蔡易宇等16人提案對照現行條文修正第二條之二第一項延長施行期限至116年12月31日之修正第12條第一項增略代報金及罰款並刪除第二項及第三項規定宣讀完畢"},{"start":16639.616,"end":16666.636,"text":"好,我們現在開始進入協商那針對的證券交易稅條例那第二條之二那就是那個我們在場的委員有沒有意見那我們就是以那個舉手的先後順序來發言那當然耐斯堡委員你就是先那再來就是那個楚瑩委員"},{"start":16671.737,"end":16685.907,"text":"我要請教一下這個金管會都很正面嘛這個當然有plus、minus我們跟我金管會相關的這個好像是試跑這個就亂了結果就發現說政府賺然後老百姓來講的話是券商虧"},{"start":16699.771,"end":16716.896,"text":"這個好事啊你跑到結果是這樣嘛對不對對啊就是就是交易量增加嘛對不對他政府全政府很高興啊對不對我就不了解啊你已經一言再言三言四言這是第四次了"},{"start":16718.212,"end":16737.951,"text":"為什麼不一勞永逸就把它永久化乾脆還搞個做一個做一個像那個麻雀拉屎一樣這個東西很奇怪你們大膽主張啊你就把它改了這大概你們也不會中啊都三年三年做一個做一個前面沒有三年只有兩年你要不要講一下"},{"start":16754.647,"end":16769.453,"text":"有有有有有報告委員我想這個我們對這個當沖降稅其實我們在我們報告裡講清楚我們是認為在整個交易市場上它確實對成交量的提升當然比如說當時的那個"},{"start":16770.834,"end":16786.444,"text":"提出這個是交易量是比較低迷啦齁那當時的目的是為了提升交易量但是後來呢隨著我們的臺灣股市發展後來發現它這具有一些其他避險或是一些比如說價格發現很多的我們是希望說它能夠"},{"start":16787.304,"end":16804.006,"text":"能夠繼續的在尤其我們現在市場越來越變動波動的時候我們希望他能維持但是我們的態度一樣就是說這個部分畢竟不是一個稅制的常態我們是還是提出有時間這樣一個限制可以比較具有彈性"},{"start":16808.356,"end":16821.906,"text":"好 主任委員那這個本席在這裡才是是不是就是說我們所有的委員一致性的發言結束了以後再由那個我們官員來回覆好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":16824.596,"end":16838.434,"text":"謝謝主席我們知道這個當通降稅是2017年實施到現在那麼有兩年版本也有三年版本的這個當通降稅的這樣的一個延長那當然本席提出來是三年啦"},{"start":16839.255,"end":16859.753,"text":"我知道在這些版本裡面也有三年的也有五年的那麼等一下可能生肖委員會代表民眾黨來發言那民眾黨版本其實是用逐年遞減的方式之後但是它會逐年取消降稅的部分然後是一個落日條款但是我覺得其實確實金管會跟裁判部也不需要回應一下就是說到底"},{"start":16861.394,"end":16874.719,"text":"未來的傾向會是如何那麼為什麼選擇就是要繼續來延長這個降稅像如果是我個人的提案我會認為說那是因為它會對於促進市場的活絡還有整個市場的流動和整體經濟來講確實是有積極的作用那麼以現在我們從過去到上一屆我們曾經也審過這個法案那確實現在的市場的經濟的活絡的狀況確實是有助於市場交易跟資金的流動等等"},{"start":16889.445,"end":16910.899,"text":"但是在這個部分接下來到底想法是什麼因為說實話啦三年也行那五年也沒有問題但是到底是未來到底要不要落日又或者是說其實要回到未來就是覺得說現在股市已經夠熱了那到底金管會跟財政部評估的標準跟準則是什麼也許也是可以講一下的部分好接著請森山委員"},{"start":16916.772,"end":16934.174,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想我們大家都有提版本主要還是從這個立法院法治局的評估報告裡面講得非常清楚我們用減稅的方式鼓勵當沖那其實也違反希望能夠有證交稅課徵的目的因為它必須還有租稅公平性的問題"},{"start":16935.115,"end":16957.462,"text":"那租稅中立性的問題是房地的投資行為我們可以中稅但是證券的投資行為我們竟然還是給他鼓勵甚至給他清水那這個違反稅制中立性的問題那重點在於說我們希望說既然以前是為了要鼓勵投資鼓勵外資進來但是時間也很長了股市也夠熱絡了"},{"start":16959.442,"end":16977.887,"text":"應該是慢慢慢慢逐年的把這個東西回歸正常那重點是我們現在如果只是單純的繼續延長就像賴小偉如果你們態度是這樣的話那就乾脆永遠一勞永逸也是一個方法那至少要把交易稅交易力的這個部分是不是要做調整"},{"start":16978.507,"end":16999.148,"text":"那如果我們鼓勵當沖降稅但是我們到現在為止還是沒有鼓勵長期持有的減免稅責就長期持有的TISA好像還沒有任何的進展所以這個部分跟我們租稅的公平性我覺得還是有差那民眾黨的版本清楚就是說慢慢的回歸正常"},{"start":17000.248,"end":17027.441,"text":"也讓國際不管外資也好或者是民眾也好他其實還是在交易上面要負擔一定的成本否則那就變成是政府就乾脆直接宣布說臺灣不需要交易稅那我們的我們又沒有證所稅所以我們其實是有一點鼓勵投機多於房地產我覺得這個部分也不是很妥當所以我覺得我們的版本應該是比較中性也希望同學們能夠支持"},{"start":17028.061,"end":17036.532,"text":"好 謝謝珍珍委員 接著請羅明財委員發言好 OK 現在我們的日均量大概是4500億假設這個當沖降稅沒有過"},{"start":17042.745,"end":17063.502,"text":"年底就已經到期了那主委可能要認真思考一個問題量會不會到回復以前的800多億、1000億這影響非常的大、層面非常廣因為現在證券開戶的人數大概有1200萬人"},{"start":17066.182,"end":17093.17,"text":"這不是說生氣的你這個制度如果沒有很穩定突然在年底如果來不及的話這整個市場好不容易熱絡起來了突然冷下去會怎麼樣我想在座我們F4都在這邊了所以情況都很清楚所以本席建議我的提案是五年如果可以的話比較久一點其實也不錯"},{"start":17094.15,"end":17113.211,"text":"可是如果真的不行的話,三年我也從善如流,能過就好啦過了以後下次再說啦不過下次又變成又是總統選舉的時候是的確比較不穩定所以如果說大家覺得賴世保賴委員講說一勞永逸,乾脆這個永遠"},{"start":17114.472,"end":17135.955,"text":"定下去當沖就是比較有期限這也是一個好的思考我看大家的意見不過就我看那個執政黨好像一直覺得行政院通過就要讓他通過沒有啦沒有嗎好啦那如果真的沒有確定五年也OK啦我也是覺得比較"},{"start":17137.841,"end":17164.282,"text":"這個時間比較長一點而且這個當沖降稅最開心的是誰是莊部長他是坐擁金山每天只要一開盤證交稅就一直收一直收對不對我們又沒有證索稅所以最開心的其實是財政部以上 謝謝好 謝謝明財委員那我們是請行政院那個我們請金管會來說明"},{"start":17167.165,"end":17186.157,"text":"一併說明那主席各位委員我想剛剛有表達過我們對這個當中降稅對資本市場的促進的功能還有就是對於我們在避險還有就是就是價格發現透明度上確實他扮演的角色那我們剛剛也擔心剛剛就說假設這個"},{"start":17189.199,"end":17215.997,"text":"當這樣沒有持續的話那可能對未來假設我們面對市場的穩定波動的時候我們現在剛剛也提到很多這個未來的環境的改變這個因素糾結在一起有可能會產生一些比較不穩定的因子所以我們還是會支持財政部剛剛提的就是三年雖然我們在第一次的時候我們提出五年但是畢竟這個財政部有整體的租稅的考量我們是覺得三年我們是支持"},{"start":17218.373,"end":17220.059,"text":"好 謝謝 那請財政部持續說明"},{"start":17223.366,"end":17249.689,"text":"是 謝謝照顧還有各位委員大家好那我想當中降稅這個事情大家都很關心那我們也知道從106年實施以來它的效果也已經看到它的符合它原來的預期效果第一個它降低了投資人的一個交易成本那也維持了一個證券市場的流動性並且帶動了整體資本市場的一個活絡但是呢因為條文裡面是到今年要屆期了"},{"start":17250.129,"end":17259.775,"text":"那這個部分呢我們認為第一個就是說證券市場很容易受到國際政治還有經濟情勢的一個波動的影響所以我們認為說為了要促進證券市場能夠持續的發展而且降低市場的不確定性所以我們認為當中降稅有延長這個試用期間的一個必要所以我們也跟金管會做了相當的討論"},{"start":17273.124,"end":17292.136,"text":"我們認為說延長三年是適當的第一個就是納保法裡面對於有關的租稅的優惠應該要有適度而且有符合它的一個政策的目的合理達成政策目的而且前幾次的延長大概也是大概都是三年所以我們認為三年可以適當所以也敬請各位委員能夠支持好 謝謝那請問那個吳立華委員是不是要花言"},{"start":17301.343,"end":17331.083,"text":"好 請那個關於那個當沖延長的部分我個人的條文其實是比較院版那我諮詢的時候也有提過這個部分呢當然是有效我們同意延長啦但是長期來看的話我們還是希望說這個部分還是要去關注到像那些個人的部分那希望在這個段時間還是要嚴加的去找到好的策略"},{"start":17332.464,"end":17333.024,"text":"那是吧"},{"start":17361.786,"end":17381.588,"text":"如果大家有共識那就三年出去不要協商這個做不到那就全部都繼續送協商因為判別這麼都不一樣好不好全部送協商嘛我本來是覺得說這是一個專業的題目啦送協商不明有點政治化我們就"},{"start":17383.692,"end":17403.395,"text":"我可以退來求職就不用三年先出去這樣啦不要協商就直接去澳山賭如果民眾黨這個選舉不那個的話我沒有尊重好不好就是就整個去協商吧所以深深如果我們就是說用三年直接送出去你的看法"},{"start":17412.068,"end":17421.434,"text":"黨團當時在提案的時候就是希望說能夠有這個繼續討論的機會啦如果不送協商的話連討論機會都沒有我們還是希望能夠保留送協商對"},{"start":17423.157,"end":17435.105,"text":"那在這裡就是其他的那個委員還沒有意見我是主張就是那我們就把他直接送出去了我們保留那就是全部送出去好不好"},{"start":17442.523,"end":17468.894,"text":"好那我在這裡再跟大家那個欸來謝謝那個楚瀅委員還是那個明財明財你先他現在的問題是這樣你如果能送出去朝野要協商一個月那大家都知道這個會期是總預算相關的到時候你這個案子排不進去所以到時候你到年底就開天窗會來不及"},{"start":17470.234,"end":17486.83,"text":"現在如果說你在考量因為這影響的層面太大一千兩百多的證券戶還有股市的安定跟穩定發展好不容易這個爐灶已經熱起來你一把水加下去整個急縮就完蛋了"},{"start":17488.516,"end":17499.704,"text":"所以這個在財委會這邊能過我們就讓他過所以我個人也都是退而求其次你沒有五年三年我也都支持成功不必在我 謝謝"},{"start":17506.092,"end":17520.678,"text":"好我個人也覺得說其實我相信朝野都會認為說現在延長是有其必要性的那又加上確實現在今天已經10月30號了如果再一個月的話就是12月我們才可以"},{"start":17521.818,"end":17540.565,"text":"來處理那這個確實有時間點上我覺得潮也在未來到底要延長多久或者是說是不是就從此取消當沖降稅是有一些不一樣的版本但是我相信山山委員這裡的民眾黨版本或者是賴委員這裡的版本應該都是認為說至少明年2025"},{"start":17542.245,"end":17542.985,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":17568.232,"end":17586.58,"text":"不是安定 或者是整個市場金融市場的安定的話因為我們現在大家的立場都可以確定是2025年1月1號我們都還是希望當沖降稅持續的那如果是這樣 是不是可以我們先不要用這種所謂全部送出去然後再等朝野協商好 謝謝 那這個再次把我言花言"},{"start":17593.394,"end":17609.452,"text":"我這樣子看啦齁這個如果今天說我們就我個人也同意名為同意可以三年啦齁我沒有意見齁但是如果民眾黨堅持那我們給他出去他應該可以拉下來啊"},{"start":17610.856,"end":17624.396,"text":"所以那時候拉下來算一個月你不如現在開始算一個月你乾脆今天出去就保留學商那就一個月嘛 對不對所以來得及啦現在不到11月嘛 對不對所以絕對來得及絕對來得及還有兩個月所以"},{"start":17627.637,"end":17643.855,"text":"就是一定來得及好不好一定來得及所以從這樣的角度看我會我原來同意但是我現在朋友主張就出去協商從現在開始算一個月如果你真的就說好那我們就通過了"},{"start":17644.856,"end":17660.117,"text":"但是去賭的時候民進黨團把他拉下來協商從那時候算一個月罰更緊張了如果他們堅持這樣子我覺得尊重所以我的具體建議就是那就通通保留出去就一條而已就很少數幾條"},{"start":17661.482,"end":17684.984,"text":"所以就保留信箱好不好好 謝謝思寶 珊珊我想民眾黨的立場很清楚啦就是希望說它變成現在看起來是常態那我們希望它還是有個態度如果我提一個折衷的方法就是前面三年也許我們可以勉強但是一樣我們還是要看到財政部跟金管會四年五年是不是遞減"},{"start":17686.485,"end":17714.438,"text":"你可以往下你現在告訴我說先過三年但是後面呢沒有人要告訴我啊那如果我們的態度是我們希望讓市場回歸正常讓可能的就我剛剛講嘛你的房市打得這麼兇你的股市的態度不太一致我覺得這也不好如果可以三年過但是四、五年你們可以接受遞減嗎或者是有沒有什麼折衷方案那我才可以跟黨團來做溝通"},{"start":17716.444,"end":17738.568,"text":"如果三年空空的出去我也沒辦法交代好 謝謝聖山那是不是我想我在這裡這裡做個就是是不是我們今天把它送出去可以啦可以啦可以就寫上保留嘛保留啦這個第12條"},{"start":17746.823,"end":17749.587,"text":"好 那就一條一條講嘛 一條一條講"},{"start":17763.271,"end":17786.169,"text":"好那本席在這裡宣布第二條之二我們就保留然後送宴會接著我們再來討論第八條那就是民眾黨的提案這請問是不是那個珊珊我們是不是給他保留第八條"},{"start":17789.688,"end":17794.791,"text":"我們請提案人說明一下好 珊珊"},{"start":17815.905,"end":17831.029,"text":"這個就是我們認為說以前的這是很早期證券可能要資本、要人力來處理的貸贈、獎金、券商有我們本來是要討論這件事情這我們沒有特別堅持但是就是認為財政部應該去檢討一下我們是請部長說明一下針對第8條"},{"start":17839.072,"end":17855.82,"text":"現在跟委員報告現在目前就是證券交易這個證交稅大部分就都是由券商券商來在收股款的時候就為代扣嘛對不對那這個部分第一個可以確保我們的稅收"},{"start":17856.6,"end":17862.423,"text":"二、簡化整體基增程序二、簡化整體基增程序二、簡化整體基增程序二、簡化整體基增程序二、簡化整體基增程序二、簡化整體基增程序"},{"start":17888.487,"end":17904.08,"text":"跟各位同仁報告我們當時討論這個事情主要是因為我們貸徵的方式其實很多現在都是貸扣繳那貸扣繳包括租金或什麼都有貸扣繳的部分但從來沒有給貸扣繳的人獎金"},{"start":17904.72,"end":17928.477,"text":"意思一樣就是說他本來就應該做這件事那特別給獎金我們是覺得有點奇怪但這個是我們沒有特別的堅持就希望說他還是希望財政部能夠對這個部分做一些了解跟檢討而且我們上次有質詢過另外一個問題就是現在其實都是網路開戶那甚至很多很多人也對他營業也不清楚也從來沒有得到服務"},{"start":17929.097,"end":17952.023,"text":"但是它還是繼續有這個貸增獎金或者是有一些相關的服務費用那甚至發生所謂的違約交割反而這個業務委員也要負相關的責任這些相關的過程都是很早期的那現在的電子交易之後其實應該對於現行的相關的規範包括這些貸增獎金以及將來的扣繳甚至處罰都應該做一些重新的討論"},{"start":17956.124,"end":17978.242,"text":"因為以前的機制跟現在已經不太一樣所以我們希望財政部在這方面能夠針對這些問題做個初步的檢討尤其是現在的交易形態跟以前的開戶、業務人員還有相關的這些券商尤其是如果我們在其他的代扣角的部分沒有獎金那這部分的獎金是不是也應該做一些檢討跟調整"},{"start":17981.189,"end":18008.444,"text":"好 謝謝珊珊委員在這裡特別提醒財政部就是說珊珊委員她剛才提到的現行的這個交易交易的一個模式你們要帶回去做檢討那我在這裡也跟那個現場的各位委員做一個詢問如果在第8條我們用維持現行的條例大家有沒有意見那如果沒有意見的話那我們就維持維持現行的條例"},{"start":18014.167,"end":18032.498,"text":"互代決議請財政部檢討,待爭獎金之外那這個互代決議再麻煩民眾黨把它寫出來那本席在這裡宣布一下第8條維持現行的條文謝謝那我們進入到第9條之一"},{"start":18034.451,"end":18050.286,"text":"那不好意思就是也是民眾黨提案珊珊是不是請你那個花言一下對這個我們也是因為券商他的確是負了相關的責任得到相關的獎金但是他也負擔很大的"},{"start":18051.867,"end":18069.196,"text":"處罰的風險所以我們認為說原來的代繳未代徵的因納稅額一倍到十倍其實是相對比較大那我們是希望說把它回到比較合理的五倍以下那這樣的話比較不會造成可能因為他們有任何的狀況而產生對企業過當的處罰"},{"start":18074.264,"end":18098.056,"text":"好 謝謝那請問那個在現場的委員有針對第9條之一有沒有特別的意見那不然我讓那個財政部長先來做一個說明好不好好 謝謝這個就是對於貸政人違反有關的規定給予處理這個罰款罰的因納倍額的部分我想這個部分是不是維持現行的然後我們要不要併在剛剛"},{"start":18099.056,"end":18100.057,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":18116.84,"end":18138.568,"text":"我想針對第9條之一在現場的委員有沒有其他的意見如果沒有其他的意見那就是第9條之一跟維持現行的條文那跟第9條之一跟第8條就是保留互帶條件互帶的決議就是剛剛民眾黨所提出的"},{"start":18144.97,"end":18170.957,"text":"那再來我們進入到第12條那第12條請問那個現場的委員有沒有針對第12條有沒有特別的一個建議好 謝謝珊珊這個提案非常簡單就是說因為行政程序法已經有相關的規範了就是認為說不需要再寫得這麼仔細它應該是回到行政程序法"},{"start":18173.203,"end":18196.777,"text":"好 那我想在這裡詢問那個各位委員如果我們照行政院版那個提議我們照案通過有沒有問題沒有 稍等一下好 司法我的提案是你把那個代報金期劃款把它刪掉因為你現在已經沒有這個東西沒有這個東西啦 你們還留著現在沒有這個東西了有嗎沒有啦"},{"start":18201.158,"end":18227.134,"text":"好 來 那個我們請署長說明一下回歸該法規定罷了因為現在我們所謂的像滯納金、代報金都是在稅捐基金法裡面有相關的規定但因為稅捐基金法是特別法那過去我們是曾經在各法都有規定後來全部都回歸到稅捐基金法去了所以我們這次才會把它改成這樣就是說反正你講的這些東西都回到稅捐基金法也是提示提示這些"},{"start":18227.974,"end":18241.947,"text":"就說納稅議員他清楚的知道如果你有這種情勢還是要接受稅源基金法的處罰好,謝謝世保那在這裡本席宣布第12條我們以行政院這個提案通過那在針對的第16條"},{"start":18257.25,"end":18262.9,"text":"第16條民眾黨的一個提案是不是請珊珊委員說明"},{"start":18265.305,"end":18290.901,"text":"我們主要是希望說如果當沖降稅還是要把他的事情日期說得很清楚啦對好那這個因為有牽涉到第二條之二可能就是說我們是不是保留那請問行政部門有沒有要補充說明的那沒有的話就是我們第16第16條那我們就保留協商"},{"start":18293.774,"end":18310.146,"text":"來那個臨時提案第一案請問金管會有沒有意見吳秉瑞委員的一個提案有沒有意見來那個是不是"},{"start":18316.481,"end":18342.883,"text":"來 請說明我們遵照辦理好 那我們就照案通過第二案請這個吳秉瑞委員的臨時提案請問金管會有沒有意見遵照辦理好 那我們就照案通過再來是第三案"},{"start":18344.403,"end":18361.394,"text":"第三案是財政部的黃珊珊委員的提案對我們遵照辦理好 那我們就等一下針對第三案我覺得黃委員太客氣了一個禮拜我覺得一個禮拜太長了"},{"start":18363.255,"end":18370.058,"text":"這個情況不僅僅在這個地方發生另外的也有你們現在財政部好幾個地方都出包別的地方也出包一樣不是只有這個地方"},{"start":18394.029,"end":18394.81,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18415.71,"end":18435.999,"text":"如果一開始黃委員提三天喔你們就五天就是謝主隆恩了啦你今天是檢去法啊對不對用加法就不一樣了好 那就針對的就是財政部的臨時提案我們就"},{"start":18437.093,"end":18438.994,"text":"道屬第二行秉持公平待客原則這邊改成秉持以風險為基礎的原則"},{"start":18453.76,"end":18477.257,"text":"然後再來是最後一行的部分那個BSP業者申請案後面加逗點避免過度去風險化之情形那這些文字修正已經跟提案委員溝通過了好那就是第4案我們就修正通過來進入到第5案"},{"start":18480.399,"end":18492.548,"text":"軍管會是第5案的部分就遵法辦理好 那就照案通過來來 這個互貸結議請你們看一下互貸結議"},{"start":18505.505,"end":18506.006,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":18524.949,"end":18531.815,"text":"宣讀附帶決議請財政部及金管會針對證交稅、期交稅、餘熱稅、貸增獎金實施狀況及存續之必要性進行檢討、收集意見於兩個月內提出順便報告宣轉筆請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":18547.58,"end":18551.903,"text":"沒有意見請大家簽個名號我們繼續再回到主席一臺一個不在決議一個不在決議我都沒有看到我就跟你換一下"},{"start":18585.282,"end":18612.391,"text":"好 主席在這裡報告協商完成請議事人員先讀協商的結論先讀協商結論證券交易稅條例第二條之二保留送院會協商第八條維持現行條文附帶決議案 照案通過第九條之一維持現行條文第十二條照行政院提案通過第十六條保留送院會協商 宣轉閉"},{"start":18614.167,"end":18618.003,"text":"好,謝謝那請各位委員對協商的結論有沒有意義"},{"start":18619.707,"end":18642.263,"text":"好沒有異議那我們就照協商的結論通過那接著本次會議做成如下的一個結議依報告說明詢答完畢委員的詢答如未及答覆跟請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另外要求的期限請從期鎖定"},{"start":18644.384,"end":18662.26,"text":"委員黃宏威、陳冠廷委員所提出的書面逐行列入記錄、刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆那我們證券交易稅法條例第2條之2、第12條條文修正草案等10案"},{"start":18664.737,"end":18687.424,"text":"業經參考金融監督管理委員會含送之延長條件當日沖銷交易稅事之初評估報告及延商延長條件當沖交易證券交易稅實施期間公聽會的會議記錄照行政院版通過審查完略"},{"start":18688.724,"end":18715.516,"text":"並按明據審查報告提報宴會討論宴會討論前交由黨團協商宴會討論的時由本席補充說明那請各位委員對以上的決議有沒有異議好那沒有異議的話我們就通過另外本次會議議事錄那我們授權由本席核定後確定請問各位委員有沒有異議"},{"start":18716.576,"end":18731.936,"text":"沒有異議?好,那就通過那本次的會議議程已經進行完畢如果有不在場的委員那個補題書面的執行一併列入記錄、刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"}]}},{"id":"16218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16218","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbb2ea4a3bfaaca62bd6a76734f73991820202062f76816a17244836a496fd33185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就「我國對設置SRF發電廠之規劃評估，及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-30T08:31:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T13:57:00+08:00","duration":19557,"影片長度":"05:25:57","委員發言時間":"08:31:03 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MANGA"},{"start":946.454,"end":946.517,"text":"本集完"},{"start":983.096,"end":983.117,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":1169.019,"end":1173.114,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1276.562,"end":1277.984,"text":"太多人去審那他應該會加班沒錯"},{"start":1809.022,"end":1820.736,"text":"我們請組密報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員11人一組法定人數好現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1821.752,"end":1826.453,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會議．第8次全體委員會議．事錄時間113年10月24日星期四﹐9時至12時23分﹐14時至14時22分﹐地點紅樓101會議室出席委員﹐林大化委員等14人﹐列席委員﹐吳秉瑞委員等26人﹐列席人員﹐國發會主委﹐劉靜卿"},{"start":1844.355,"end":1855.57,"text":"衛福部社家署代理署長周道軍、教育部政次章廖萬堅、勞動部勞發署副署長黃迎玉、人事行政總署副人事長李秉舟及各單位相關"},{"start":1856.994,"end":1875.71,"text":"人員、主席、邱超及委員至委。報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定、確定。二、邀請國家發展委員會主任、委員衛生、福利部首長、教育部首長、勞動部首長就我國少子女化現況及對策計畫成效。繼我國與雅林國家日流財攬財政策競爭力比較進行報告．並備質詢。"},{"start":1879.132,"end":1892.083,"text":"三、邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院人事總署首長就我國少子女化對策主管單位與主要國家作法之比較暨我國參財改制之可行性．進行報告．並備質詢。報告四、讓合併巡邏國發會主委劉靜清衛福部．"},{"start":1895.386,"end":1921.995,"text":"社家署代理署長周大軍、教育部政事張亮頑堅及勞動部勞發署副署長黃盈玉報告後委員林代化等23人提出質詢。均由國發會留署委、教育部張亮政事、勞發署黃副署長、人事行政總署理副人事長及社家署周歐代理署長及鄉外人員即席答覆決定。一、登記發言委員處不在場者外,其餘均與發言完畢,詢答結束。二、未及答覆部分,請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本會,這樣會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1927.916,"end":1940.724,"text":"好,繼續進行報告。在場委員不到3人,所以議事錄暫不處理。那我們就繼續報告這個,報告事項,請一併宣讀。一、邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。二、邀請經濟部部長、環境部首長就我國對設置SRF電廠之規劃評估．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響．進行報告．並備質詢。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1959.349,"end":1982.275,"text":"本日議程排定經濟部業務報告．及我國對於設置SRF發電廠之規劃評估．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響等兩岸進行報告．並備質詢。那我們現在先來介紹在場的首長經濟部郭志輝部長商業發展署蘇文林署長"},{"start":1990.452,"end":2012.799,"text":"產業發展署楊志清署長國際貿易署江文若署長能源署劉振偉署長中小及新創企業署李冠志署長水利署賴建信署長智慧財產局廖承威局長產業園區管理局楊伯耕局長"},{"start":2021.389,"end":2045.92,"text":"標準檢驗局陳怡林局長經貿人員培訓所李浩喜所長地質調查及礦業管理中心徐明宏主任工商輔導中心袁瑞龍主任"},{"start":2048.676,"end":2072.824,"text":"臺電公司董事長曾文森董事長總經理王耀廷總經理臺糖公司陳立仁總經理臺水公司李家榮董事長中游公司方振仁總經理環境部省自修常務次長資源"},{"start":2077.958,"end":2106.441,"text":"循環署賴盈盈署長我們現在就請經濟部的郭志輝部長進行業務報告及專題報告主席、各位委員、大家好"},{"start":2107.441,"end":2134.459,"text":"今天承蒙貴委員會邀請提出業務報告深感榮幸以下僅就當前經濟環境以及本部施政重點而要說明進行各位委員不吝示教全球經濟在歷經疫情、斷鏈、戰爭以及升息、循環等挑戰之後"},{"start":2135.683,"end":2156.598,"text":"展現了令人鼓舞的韌性美、歐等國通膨壓力漸減上半年全球經貿活動呈現復甦OECD、INF等國際機構最新的預估全球經濟成長在今年將保持3.2%的這個速度平穩擴張與去年相當雖然"},{"start":2163.561,"end":2180.732,"text":"無二以及中東地緣衝突、美中集團貿易壁壘以及美國總統大選等可能增添全球經濟風險但全球AI需求依舊強勁"},{"start":2182.789,"end":2204.439,"text":"標普全球上調生成式AI市場營收預測未來的5年也就是說到2028年成長將高達59%今年許多大型科技公司分別投入百億美元AI基礎設施預計5年內總規模將超過1兆美元以上對經濟產生顛覆性的影響"},{"start":2213.449,"end":2233.276,"text":"臺灣是首波受益於AI投資熱潮的國家之一根據主計總署今年8月最新預測隨AI等新興科技應用商機持續熱絡以及全球終端需求逐漸回溫臺灣今年的經濟成長可高達3.9%"},{"start":2238.26,"end":2265.648,"text":"由於全球平均以及日、韓、新等雅齡國家明年可望續長3.26%為把握AI未來五年黃金發展時期確保臺灣站穩全球供應鏈的關鍵地位本部施政上將優先推動半導體、AI等信賴產業發展"},{"start":2267.681,"end":2290.14,"text":"並透過中小微企業的數位以及淨零雙轉型堅固創新包容成長此外為達成第二次能源轉型發展多元力能加速落實深度節能協助企業減碳共同邁向淨零永續同時"},{"start":2293.294,"end":2303.784,"text":"全力確保水、電穩定供應讓企業安心經營投資搭配境內關外、境外關內創新經濟發展模式接軌國際、擴大內需市場加速實踐總統經濟日不落國的願景"},{"start":2316.897,"end":2340.336,"text":"臺灣擁有世界最完整的產業聚落特別在半導體領域其中晶圓代工以及晶片封測高居全球第一IC設計全球第二展現臺灣在半導體供應鏈的優勢以及關鍵地位面對美中集團對抗本部將強化半導體"},{"start":2342.261,"end":2358.266,"text":"產業供應鏈安全藉由輔助國產設備以及材料完成終端客戶驗證順利導入半導體供應鏈體系提高國產半導體封裝設備以及材料的自主率"},{"start":2360.528,"end":2382.353,"text":"為因應中國發展成熟製程導致血價競爭本部以IC設計五年內排名全球第二為目標加速業者開發高算力AI、液質整合以及矽光子等先進製程晶片技術並先規劃建置"},{"start":2386.717,"end":2401.246,"text":"適量產線提供業者客製化的驗證以及市場平台協助進行新產品的研發此外透過研發補助資源驅動國內業者達到國際領先技術指標的晶片設計開發並引導跨入先進製程研發"},{"start":2411.26,"end":2423.422,"text":"今年IC設計業者採用先進製程晶片產值的占比將由39%升至43%AI成為全球重要戰略臺灣已經具備先進晶片製造優勢本部運用臺灣專屬開源模型"},{"start":2436.465,"end":2454.763,"text":"以及產業領域資料選定金屬機械、醫療、商務、會展等十項特色產業開發AI應用模型規劃產業AI導入指引據公版教材提供專家輔導"},{"start":2458.267,"end":2480.934,"text":"諮詢與政斷．帶動百工百業導入AI預計．在2028年包括傳統產業．以及中小企業在內的製造業．應用AI普及率到達50%．服務業以及中小微企業導入AI應用8萬家．並完成培育20萬名AI人才．"},{"start":2482.58,"end":2508.22,"text":"此外本部促成多家國際大廠來臺引進半導體、AI等領域關鍵技術與國內廠商合作研發同時要求外商引進海外人才的時必須提升國際人才的比例應要達到50%以上來奠基臺灣AI的人才庫"},{"start":2509.938,"end":2513.404,"text":"軍工產業方面面對新時代軍備的競賽無人機廣泛應用於俄烏"},{"start":2518.669,"end":2546.618,"text":"中東等地緣衝突機器狗代替人類赴前線偵查掃雷結合AI科技居家陪伴巡邏偵測物流運送等應用服務日漸成熟本部利用內需市場建立無人機等關鍵技術能量推動臺灣卓越無人機海外商機聯盟對焦非紅供應鏈的需求擴大國際合作"},{"start":2548.078,"end":2570.935,"text":"目標在2028年之前無人機的產值成長10倍,到達300億元。機器狗方面,工研院已籌組TexForce團隊,整合國內法人、廠商研發以及技術能量,預計在今年底產出機器狗的原型,帶動機器狗產業鏈自主發展。"},{"start":2575.883,"end":2588.909,"text":"為讓我國產業立足臺灣、布局全球、行銷全世界本部持續運用經貿交流管道與歐盟、日本進行經貿會議強化半導體等關鍵供應鏈的鏈結與新南向國家舉辦產業高峰論壇"},{"start":2599.051,"end":2604.104,"text":"促成產業交流合作．進一步啟動境外關內政策．"},{"start":2607.808,"end":2631.794,"text":"針對臺灣優勢產業以大帶小的模式協助中小企業海外布局讓臺商形成產業聚落本部已規劃於重點國家設置籌備處成立服務公司將提供臺商從用地的取得、公司的申請、廠房的興建、人力的招募、水電的供應等"},{"start":2632.634,"end":2655.643,"text":"一站式服務．今年年底．將先設立一個服務窗口．同時爭取避免雙重課稅．租關稅等優惠．以及行政的便捷。今年六月．我率團防美期間．積極地促進各界支持臺美避免雙重課稅的協定．"},{"start":2657.546,"end":2670.716,"text":"來立法以營造有利臺商的經營環境為推動臺灣共同品牌今年8月在馬來西亞超市設立臺灣SELECT"},{"start":2671.687,"end":2694.217,"text":"的專區展示臺灣裕40個品牌、150項特色產品或需規劃在美國的超市辦理促銷活動以及在加拿大以及西班牙超市辦理快閃活動協助食品業者開發海外商機推廣臺灣SELECT商品"},{"start":2695.985,"end":2712.08,"text":"經內關外為著眼擴大內需消費市場．這是投資的商機．加速在生技、醫療等大健康產業的發展．打造臺灣適合調理身心、保健身體的國家．"},{"start":2713.223,"end":2741.452,"text":"本部推廣臺灣美食、食補以及養生保健服務．辦理美食競賽．並與九大國際會展提供配套服務．體驗臺灣特色美食以及高質服務．並提供參展以及觀展的國際人士．直接接駁、交通接駁、順道觀光．帶動百貨商圈以及周邊的消費。"},{"start":2742.745,"end":2759.86,"text":"令於投資臺灣事務所成立服務業投資小組提供專人專案客製化服務推動國際百大精品來臺吸引國際一流養生業者進駐形塑臺灣優質的消費環境"},{"start":2763.996,"end":2781.272,"text":"如何以更少的能源做更多的事情是推動深度節能的核心理念本部規劃扶持ESCO擴大推動能量提升大用戶節電目標並運用輔導獎勵以及導入民間資源促進用戶落實節能改善於2030年"},{"start":2793.025,"end":2814.564,"text":"帶動9000億元的節能產值．產業方面．透過推動EXCO發展．協助產業節能改善．引入低碳化以及智慧化技術．帶動雙軸轉型．推動重點．包括公營事業帶領示範．建立EXCO執行模式．提供產業用戶參採．"},{"start":2818.191,"end":2829.703,"text":"另外盤點供應鏈．以及中小用戶節能潛力．並成立專家顧問團提供技術諮詢與輔導．最後協助媒合EXCO 落實節能改善"},{"start":2835.216,"end":2860.471,"text":"在資金協助上以成立節能服務業專案貸款信用保證以50億元信保的額度提供每家ESCO最高額外3億元核保金額並透過發展保險業節能績效型保單降低資金投入ESCO風險來擴大ESCO服務的量能"},{"start":2862.435,"end":2876.83,"text":"針對超過1萬千瓦的能源大用戶．以法規要求節電目標．從1%提高到1.5%．並推動以大帶小機制．攜手協力供應商一起參與節能改善．"},{"start":2879.184,"end":2893.492,"text":"至於住宅用戶．本部已向行政院爭取擴大經費．鼓勵民眾將老舊家電汰換為能效一級的產品．未來兩年將完成408萬台老舊家電的汰換"},{"start":2898.035,"end":2921.855,"text":"中小微企業是我國經濟成長與社會穩定的重要力量長期為國家打造健全的產業供應鏈基礎本部持續協助中小微企業多元成長並透過數位轉型、淨零轉型以及通路發展的策略建構適合"},{"start":2923.656,"end":2949.67,"text":"小微企業發展的生態體系預計4年創造產值超過2750億元在數位轉型方面本部協助企業導入AI工具以及加強培訓AI數位人才針對員工30人以下的企業提供輔助方案減輕基本工資調升的衝擊"},{"start":2951.96,"end":2973.366,"text":"在經營轉型方面本部透過工協會擴散減碳資能提供中小微企業碳健檢諮詢以及輔導協助導入ESCO節能服務改善碳排在通路發展方面本部規劃擴大在地"},{"start":2975.757,"end":2999.355,"text":"商家通路並結合臺灣SERET等共同品牌協助企業拓展海外市場此外,針對中小微企業的資金問題本部服以普惠專案貸款以及租稅優惠配套措施規劃為員工30人以下中小微企業提供數位轉型"},{"start":3001.731,"end":3025.929,"text":"進齡轉型以及通路發展專案貸款與利息補貼強化資金支持中小企業發展條例已於8月7日修正公布提高中小企業徵雇基層員工加薪投入創新研發的誘因將有助於中小企業多元創新發展"},{"start":3028.143,"end":3039.995,"text":"在協助中小企業以及新創事業區域平衡發展方面本部持續與各地中小企業團體輔導網路強化連結交流擴大與中南部創意機構合作帶動在地產業創新發展"},{"start":3050.297,"end":3057.039,"text":"臺灣目前太陽光電總設置量達到13.7GW為105年的11倍離岸風電從無到有累積裝置了372座風機併網量達到2.93GW是全球的第7名未來持續推動風光電外我們將加速發展"},{"start":3078.41,"end":3089.217,"text":"地熱、氫能等多元綠能,多元的綠能、多元的綠電可以確保能源的自主性,尤其是地熱發電,臺灣蘊藏豐富的地熱資源。"},{"start":3094.312,"end":3118.045,"text":"本部探勘大屯山、瑞穗、延平、寶萊等10處地熱的案場收集地熱潛能的相關資訊其中大屯山佔台灣地熱潛能將近一半10月已經在宜蘭啟動國內首口4000公尺深層地熱探勘深井的開鑽"},{"start":3119.52,"end":3127.99,"text":"另外,從法制面友善申請環境．設置示範獎勵辦法．分攤業者的攤勘風險．並由中油引進國際生成地熱技術．建置地熱發電案場．加速推動地熱的設置。"},{"start":3139.676,"end":3161.146,"text":"至於氫能方面本部結合工部門與國營事業資源與國際技術領先的國家交流合作拓展氫能的應用並關注國際氫能的發展為滿足產業發展以及民生需求本部每年滾動檢討用電成長"},{"start":3165.617,"end":3172.263,"text":"AI帶動的半導體產業擴廠．電動車啟動政策的因素．預估臺灣未來10年．也就是到122年用電的需求．年均成長約2.8%．將持續開發再生能源．低碳燃氣發電．以及儲能電網建設．確保供電的穩定"},{"start":3195.512,"end":3213.866,"text":"為確保穩定的供水以及降低淹水災害本部推動多元水源開發強化跨區域水源調度包括推動科技造水完成鳥水潭人工湖高頻溪浮流水"},{"start":3214.932,"end":3237.081,"text":"逃逐備援管線．阿姆坪防淤隧道．以及征文南化聯通管等水資源的建設．增加全國20%的用水．另外因應近期各縣市提出之治水需求．本部已爭取行政院的同意"},{"start":3240.363,"end":3260.178,"text":"徵列84億元的預算．總計298億元投入防洪治水．搭配淹水感測器．以及水情影像、雲端平臺等智慧化工具．即時監看AI．辨識淹水資訊．精進智慧防災．以及應變能力。"},{"start":3268.345,"end":3286.01,"text":"今年全球招商論壇有12家國際大廠以具體投資行動支持臺灣與本部簽署投資意向書再加上已掌握的廠商未來投資金額將高達1,150億元國際半導體展吸引了全球56個國家超過1,100家企業參與這個盛事再次刷新紀錄"},{"start":3298.302,"end":3325.445,"text":"臺灣擁有全球頂尖的製造實力本部將以行動創新AI內閣的執行力壯大五大信賴產業協助中小微企業升級轉型推動第二次的能源轉型穩定水電供應鞏固臺灣在世界的關鍵地位期盼各位委員對於本部施政"},{"start":3326.645,"end":3354.888,"text":"．以指證示教本會期送請大院審查的預算案．以及相關議案．亦懇請委員鼎力支持．最後敬祝各位委員身體健康．萬事如意以上報告進行各位委員指教謝謝主席各位委員大家好"},{"start":3355.819,"end":3361.566,"text":"今天承蒙貴委員會邀請就我國對設置SRF發電廠的規．規劃評估．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響進行報告．"},{"start":3372.931,"end":3388.519,"text":"2050淨零碳排是目前全球面臨的共同課題各國無不竭盡所有可能手段進行減碳SRF發電有助減碳除符合我"},{"start":3389.69,"end":3415.43,"text":"我國的淨零政策．亦符合本部推動能源多元發展．促進投資等政策．對環境保護與經濟發展都有幫助。只就本部相關措施提出報告．敬請各位委員不吝示教因應大型風化爐整改．可燃廢棄物去化受限"},{"start":3417.315,"end":3442.954,"text":"為協助可燃廢棄物的去化．並減少國內二氧化碳排放．環境部自2020年起推動廢棄物燃料化政策．此外為推動2050年淨零碳排．參考先進國家做法．我國自2023年也將廢棄物能源化．作為淨零戰略的關鍵項目．"},{"start":3445.168,"end":3465.234,"text":"而國際上、歐洲、日本等先進國家為了解決國內是嚴重的垃圾問題以又能達成淨零目標提出以固體再生燃料也就是SRF來替代石化燃料提供電力與熱能的方案。舉例來說"},{"start":3466.877,"end":3494.157,"text":"瑞典的米拉倫湖發電廠使用伐木業所產生的木材廢棄物以及都市生活垃圾作為燃料進行發電每年可以處理40萬噸的廢棄物提供15萬戶家庭用電以及取暖而日本北海道的三小木發電所則是世界上第一座專用塑膠廢棄物燃料的發電廠從"},{"start":3498.143,"end":3509.451,"text":"2003年啟用至今．已經處理高達540萬噸廢塑膠．累計發電量為4510GW．約可減少碳排415萬噸．SRF容易存放與運用．可以替代煤炭、焦炭等化石燃料．"},{"start":3527.946,"end":3552.44,"text":"．價格較煤炭低．重要的是．同樣的熱能產出．二氧化碳的排碳．減少到化石燃料的三分之二．換句話說．它是一項具有經濟效益．廢棄物利用極大化的能源．能幫助減少碳排放．依環境部的資料顯示．一公噸的SRF．可以取代0.86公噸的"},{"start":3555.148,"end":3570.683,"text":"對於SRF製造使用的管理與污染防治．環境部以參考歐盟最新標準．就料源"},{"start":3571.764,"end":3590.446,"text":"自成設備、產品品質、流向管制以及空污排放等進行全面管理並加嚴標準。相關規範環境部已邀請包含本部等中央有關機關、地方主管機關"},{"start":3591.767,"end":3614.482,"text":"及相關產業工協會進行研商．本部亦多次參與相關法令研修討論會議．相關修法也朝加研的方向訂定．將有助於全面管控SRF的製造和使用流程．有效降低其對環境的影響。"},{"start":3618.307,"end":3640.803,"text":"為完善國內廢棄物去化管理．能源化為去化管道之一．因此於再生能源發展條例98年立法之初．將經處理之國內一般及一般事業廢棄物．納入再生能源發電設備可使用的料源．"},{"start":3641.874,"end":3651.994,"text":"有關SRF發電廠之設置管理、廠商需依電業法、再生能源發展條例以及再生能源發電設備設置管理辦法"},{"start":3655.346,"end":3670.756,"text":"規定檢附相關文件提出申請．並依規定SRF發電設備所用燃料來源．需百分之百為國內一般廢棄物或一般事業廢棄物．並經環保主管機關確認．此外．發電效率需達25%以上．使得適用準購費率。"},{"start":3681.861,"end":3688.385,"text":"SRF應含塑膠類廢棄物．不屬於國際認定再生能源或R1-100的認定範疇．在國內,位於國際接軌本部已於113年10月23日預告再生能源發展條例修正草案．"},{"start":3703.455,"end":3728.768,"text":"廢棄物發電設備為再生能源發電設備．法律實施後．將不再享有准購費率．預告期間歡迎各界表達意見．後續有關廢棄物含SRF發電設備設置及其相關管理．本部與環境部合作．強化橫向勾擊機制與．"},{"start":3730.731,"end":3742.166,"text":"後市場管理以完善廢棄物料源經處理空氣污染排放及發電效率等管理與集合工作"},{"start":3743.254,"end":3765.977,"text":"桃園科技工業園區SRF發電廠因有入園許可是否有效的法律爭議遭到桃園市政府撤銷入園許可目前廠商已提出訴願並由本部訴願會審理中另外當地民眾對於SRF電廠所產生的污染也有疑慮"},{"start":3767.182,"end":3785.78,"text":"目前環境部以參考歐盟最新規定嚴明SRF加嚴的管理法規。廠商也發函桃園市政府表示願意遵守環境部加嚴後的法規。本部認為法律的正義應該交由"},{"start":3787.731,"end":3808.694,"text":"專業學者所組成的本部溯源會來做成判斷與決定至於地方民眾所擔心的環境問題應該由廠商以及環境部、桃園市政府等政府單位來加強溝通本部作為產業以及能源主管機構"},{"start":3810.106,"end":3834.026,"text":"非常重視循環經濟以及我國能源多元發展相關投資案件我們期待可以順利進行以創造產業綠色成長的新動能。SRF發電廠設置對臺灣廢棄物能源化以及2050年淨零碳排是有幫助"},{"start":3835.223,"end":3863.35,"text":"環境部以嚴定SRF加嚴規範．將可大幅減少空氣的污染以上報告 敬請各位委員指正視教敬祝各位委員身體健康 處事順利謝謝好 謝謝部長 先請回座我們先介紹在場的委員林代化委員邱益穎委員黃建豪委員"},{"start":3865.691,"end":3879.36,"text":"請問各位委員,上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?好,議事錄無錯誤,那我們議事錄確定。現在我們請環境部省自修次長進行專案報告。"},{"start":3884.737,"end":3894.363,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好那環境部今天非常榮幸能夠接受貴委員會的邀請就我國對設置SRF發電廠的一個規劃評估以及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境的影響進行報告"},{"start":3900.586,"end":3914.72,"text":"那SRF製造廠的一個管理跟使用廠的一個污染防治是由環境部來負責那麼為了輔導SRF廠合法合規環境部從今年的6月起成立了一個體檢輔導團就會期務的一個處理技術"},{"start":3918.423,"end":3938.49,"text":"會期務的運作管理、空氣污染防治以及環境檢測四大領域共有12位專家那麼我們也邀請了工廠所在地的環保局由局長、副局長或者是承辦科長進行全面性的一個體檢經過三個半月的時間在今年的9月底我們完成了全國48家製造廠"},{"start":3940.291,"end":3940.551,"text":"提供意見。"},{"start":3956.901,"end":3977.555,"text":"未來環境部也會依據輔導成果在今年年底提出SRF的管理辦法提升管理法令位階並加嚴SRF使用場的一個空氣污染排放標準以及檢測規定相關法規預計在今年年底就會來發布有關於這個SRF管理辦法的部分"},{"start":3978.863,"end":3997.792,"text":"我們會來訂定SRF管理辦法未接的提升加強SRF從產源製造使用到最後揮渣產出的運作管理要求記錄跟申報增加CCTV監視以及第三方的一個品質驗證制度健全管理機制"},{"start":3998.692,"end":4024.121,"text":"那有關於加強這個空氣暖防制設備的排放標準的一個加嚴的部分那凡是使用這個實用廠的必須要來設置這個立裝污染物SARS、NARS、戴耀星防制設施也會比照這個大型風化爐來加嚴空氣污染物的排放值包括像重金屬、戴耀星等等那針對大型的SRF的一個使用廠"},{"start":4025.201,"end":4048.727,"text":"現有的裝設這一個連續自動建設的設施像SIMS那我們會要求來加強帶耀性前驅物質像易氧化碳、氯化氫的一個項目的檢測那未來環境部會用最嚴格的標準比照國際的規範來推動及管理SRF的轉匯為能的政策並持續來採取源頭減量"},{"start":4050.507,"end":4067.731,"text":"若實回收及促進資源循環等策略執行．減少廢墟的產生．並且來維護我們環境的品質以上報告公請指正。謝謝報告四項兩岸合併進行詢答"},{"start":4073.208,"end":4073.688,"text":"有請經濟部長請郭部長"},{"start":4102.759,"end":4127.085,"text":"委員長部長在正式進入本席的SRF的這個討論的當中針對我們康瑞颱風即將襲台可能進入我們再次的可能會再進入高雄所以本席想了解目前我們經濟部針對康瑞颱風的因應是怎麼樣我們開始要進入這個所有的這個籌備了這個即將啟動這樣的因應的這個做法"},{"start":4132.925,"end":4157.039,"text":"我明確地問,台水淨水廠如何避免原水濁度飆升導致無法穩定供水?這是第一個。第二個,台電的緊急備處及人力調度的資源又是如何?如果以高頻來講的話,就是會在南華水庫上面去加強。去怎樣?他會去,就是"},{"start":4159.163,"end":4185.136,"text":"臺水董事長來臺水董事長來跟您報告謝謝委員指針那我們會從那個南化聯通管調度南化水庫的鹽水大概一天可以調度40萬噸的水那我們還有侵水系統可以從臺南支援北高雄來做一些支援調度那我們高屏溪還有很多的"},{"start":4186.176,"end":4188.638,"text":"臺電緊急備署跟人力調度跟委員說明第一個事情是這個颱風看起來影響範圍會比上一個颱風影響大很多"},{"start":4214.997,"end":4230.298,"text":"那南部的部分就是基本的防災應變都做了調度的狀況是這樣我們已經把所有休假同仁的全部都叫回來然後都已經準備要做調度但沒有辦法像上次山陀 山陀知道說他可能就是在南部"},{"start":4230.859,"end":4243.796,"text":"我們這一次會在判斷上面會再稍微晚一點人力資源上會再稍微晚一點那我跟您報告第二件事這一件事重要就是因為它影響範圍大而且看起來暴風要就是整個暴風圈要離開台灣已經入夜"},{"start":4245.919,"end":4254.749,"text":"所以這一件事我們也在想這入業之後的整個搶修我們要怎麼樣做因應這一次的颱風如果真的登陸然後它的影響時間如現在氣象署的規劃那對於復電來講它很可能要11月1號早上開始才有辦法全面展開如果它是入業以後才離開的話"},{"start":4266.102,"end":4294.184,"text":"那針對這個部長那針對第一線啊針對我上次兩個颱風啊我對於第一線的同仁台電、台水、中油的颱風搶救我是真的深感感謝也感謝部長的調度那這邊我也要請你們審慎研議啊針對這三個國營事業在颱風搶救或者是相關的緊急天災他在搶救的待遇跟危險津貼上是否要研議提高"},{"start":4295.402,"end":4307.65,"text":"還是三個董事長?我請國營司來回答跟委員報告就是他對於搶修的這個危險的假期我們大概在今年已經十月多的時候已經核定了就是會提高七成好"},{"start":4309.288,"end":4337.177,"text":"來,我們部長跟我們環境部來,我針對SRF跟傳統焚燒以及SRF的全球趨勢以及我們目前一般的廢棄物的總量以及我國營運的現況以及本席有一些要求那本席是非常非常肯定環境部對SRF的推動那對於全球目前每年有21的廢棄物家庭企業的廢棄物只會增加所以如何轉"},{"start":4338.197,"end":4355.582,"text":"非為能這個環境部講得真好這件事情我是大大的肯定但目前的執行上當然是還沒有達到那對於另外呢我們在世界銀行預估在全球垃圾總量到2050年即將達到34億噸也會比現在的2024年增加"},{"start":4361.383,"end":4362.123,"text":"好,我們現況我們講到它的料源"},{"start":4387.858,"end":4411.196,"text":"這個SRF料源的廢紙、廢塑膠、廢纖維、廢木材、廢橡膠好,我們看上表這四年來我們的整個的回收量請看最右邊的那一行我們10958.84的回收一直到112去年的58.31%也就是說我的回收再利用之後我的百分之"},{"start":4411.676,"end":4428.089,"text":"平均百分之另外的百分之四十以上我把這四年當中沒有回收的我們回收率嘛我們的非回收率大概百分之四十一也就是這百分之十一將近五百公噸分化爐式去化不再利用了"},{"start":4428.709,"end":4439.019,"text":"好那這就是我們的重點啊我們SRF要不要去再我們再這個要不要提高我們的廢機物的回收率要不然就白白500公噸就浪費掉了而且我還要這500公噸我還要花電還要花油再去進行燃化"},{"start":4445.825,"end":4448.187,"text":"好 第二個呢我們的營運狀況目前你們也很積極的環境部做66家SRF的廠商體檢18家使用廠48家的製造廠好這48家當中呢其實都符合品質的這個要求但留下"},{"start":4463.46,"end":4489.886,"text":"這是本期有疑慮的留香的結果有18家未確實申報一家是完全未申報的那也就是說理論上最佳的狀況是我的48家的製造廠全部他的SRF的燃料標是要進到這18家的可是我卻有18加1是沒有的我掌握不到的那我本期就合理懷疑他到哪裡去"},{"start":4490.686,"end":4491.727,"text":"我必須達到一千度欸"},{"start":4512.305,"end":4530.441,"text":"所以這19家18家1家我合理懷疑他到他去幫助了生殖能可是因為生殖能的燃點太低了他發電燃點太低他300度稻草就可以可以發電了那我就用1000度那這會變成什麼我奧黛西就沒有辦法管制啊這是多可怕的一件事情"},{"start":4531.081,"end":4552.095,"text":"好 戴奧星戴奧星這戴奧星是世紀之獨啊所以對我們對SRF的管制標準雖然叫這個歐盟的原格但是我們法規沒有這個完備所以這個環境部啊我是贊同你們剛才你的簡報當中行政指導直接提接提升為法律位階來作為SRF的這個規範但是你的規劃時程我希望能夠明確"},{"start":4557.739,"end":4557.879,"text":"轉費為能使用場"},{"start":4575.79,"end":4589.102,"text":"來 這個經濟部要看了 這使用廠18家行業啊 這個全部都沒有用在發電用途第二個 這個使用廠當中有4家排代澳新的排放是不合格哇 這個太可怕了"},{"start":4592.384,"end":4618.689,"text":"好 所以這邊具體要求經濟部對於發會維能經濟部對SRF使用廠的建立發電的模式並進行輔導業者我希望有實際的時程規劃部長這您覺得要多久才會提供這是等一下您來回應第二個環境部您要把行政指導提升為法律未接我在這邊有三項要求你一定要給我納入第一個如何提高現有的廢棄物回收率"},{"start":4619.369,"end":4643.47,"text":"第二個,要求SRF的製造業者若是一般非自負的回收的分類跟分選提出有效稽查SRF的產品品質的這個機制避免僥倖違法發生第三,智慧化管理,全時監控不用再用人力啦,你現在要去查他品質好不好藍碟有沒有到1000,你去稽查的時候都有,你離開之後他就變沒有"},{"start":4645.672,"end":4652.274,"text":"所以就是全時監控用智慧化管理．SRF發電量與燃燒溫度的數據．已達成零代澳新的排放來經濟部跟環境部簡單回應報告委員我們大概要三個月三個月好那環境部對於你要提升這個作為位階而且先回答我你針對本期這三項在你的法規位階當中是不是應該要納入"},{"start":4669.699,"end":4684.465,"text":"已經有列進了就是對於這一個原料來源的部分我們對於品質的規範要把它當作是一個燃料產品的品質規範他也必須要去做檢測跟驗證那使用端使用場他有引收標準那使用端這邊"},{"start":4685.745,"end":4709.291,"text":"委員所關心的我們可以信使連線的部分全部都要去跟環保局連線而且增加了帶耀性的全區物質像CO以及HCL的連線因為帶耀性的檢測是必須要到實驗室檢測沒有辦法即時那即時的部分就是在全區我們一定會把它列進來那剛剛有講到我們體檢的結果有4個帶耀性不合格的部分其實這些廠都是"},{"start":4710.311,"end":4710.411,"text":"請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":4738.927,"end":4744.761,"text":"謝謝邱委員跟我換次序,謝謝。主席楊全英發言,邀請部長。請郭部長。"},{"start":4753.782,"end":4754.102,"text":"委員好"},{"start":4783.041,"end":4786.804,"text":"是嗎?是。2026年你預計要達成多少?550億度的綠電。550億度的綠電。好。所以本席首先要請教,你的綠電來源怎麼來?"},{"start":4798.206,"end":4804.148,"text":"黃美花部長的時候你前任的部長當時所答應的是往後延在2025年原本要達到20%那他在下任之前他承認達不到"},{"start":4826.636,"end":4844.518,"text":"所以在2026年就延後那也說明在2025年是要達到綠能的這個部分是15%2026年20%是不是目前的進度也是如此呢是的是的那你剛剛所說的你有信心要達到"},{"start":4845.839,"end":4874.687,"text":"您剛才所說的2026年550億度的這個綠能這是一個您點頭那所以接下來本席要請教那你認為可以達到我們也滿心的歡喜當然我不希望你跟這個王美華部長一樣又是跳票又跳票那我們不希望那所以要再請教那你要怎麼樣分配因為包括了我們非常重視的中小企業"},{"start":4875.968,"end":4889.042,"text":"我們的第一攤話轉型包括了我們目前我們自己大企業等相關企業需要的包括了揮打我們也節省歡迎在這樣的情況之下你怎麼分配哪一個為優先"},{"start":4891.131,"end":4919.188,"text":"怎麼分配我可不可以請這個能源署跟你報告部長應該你頭腦裡頭會有這些東西因為你已經說了你會達到那你也說百億度你既然有這個數字百億度要給回答你的頭腦裡頭難道你沒有我們中小企業嗎你沒有我們本土的企業嗎當然有啊當然有請說明怎麼分配所有要做出口的"},{"start":4920.865,"end":4938.402,"text":"他需要綠電的需要綠電我們都是經過這樣子的統計然後來設置我們的這個發電的這個設置所有要出口的本身要告訴你的是中小企業不能把我們不給答不答應"},{"start":4941.755,"end":4961.988,"text":"我們的中小企業低碳化的轉型務必要照顧到是不是當然這是你答應的所以本席也希望我們能夠達成成功同時在分配的時候一定要照顧我們全面性我們的中小企業對不對當然"},{"start":4963.909,"end":4988.981,"text":"那就拭目以待那接下來本席要跟你討論的是固體再生燃料SRF的這個議題那我們看到推動可燃的廢棄資源燃料化這個是政府到目前為止我們的配套完整了嗎我們的配套完整了嗎我們的嚴格標準跟我們的監管法規到位了嗎請做說明"},{"start":4991.548,"end":5015.045,"text":"跟委員報告我是環境部的次長那我想這個委員關心的部分就是從製造端到使用端製造端我們會訂出產品的規範請教請正正本席的提問你訂定了嚴謹的標準跟監管的法規嗎是你的配套完整了嗎因為SRF在整個製程跟燃燒的這個發電可能產生的空污是"},{"start":5015.805,"end":5032.404,"text":"他是不是會影響的健康這些都是我們非常的關注我們也很關心請問你的配套完整了嗎各位委員報告我們在6月到9月期間我們做了體檢報告做了體檢之後我們發現了一些可以改善的地方我們也覺得有必要把這樣的一個"},{"start":5033.525,"end":5048.146,"text":"可以改善的地方什麼時候會定出來?請教你現在只有產品原料是歐盟的標準但是你在整個空氣污染的排放你沒有比照歐盟你比歐盟這個鬆了很多"},{"start":5050.469,"end":5054.232,"text":"會不會嚴謹請教會不會嚴謹請告訴本席會不會嚴謹你現在有訂的是參考指引對不對什麼時候訂排放標準跟加嚴標準因為你在桃園已經搞了一個烏龍選舉的時間強力推薦"},{"start":5079.181,"end":5086.307,"text":"竟然我們中央經濟部的推薦書還可以再收回由桃園縣政府、桃園市政府"},{"start":5087.458,"end":5110.291,"text":"又把它廢除竟然我們經濟部又又把廢除不准這個政府到底邏輯出在哪裡你第一個配套還沒有完整你的相關監管的還沒有完整尤其人民最恐怖最最怕的你的空污問題在這樣的情況之下已經搞了這個烏龍本席具體監理部長你站在面前要回答我會給你回答"},{"start":5112.912,"end":5132.839,"text":"本席告訴你我們希望在你的法規監管都要嚴格有訂定出來的時候你才可以全面的來做這是人民最卑微的要求請做說明我想這個委員你的這個指教非常正確我們是已經有這個排放標準訂出來"},{"start":5134.864,"end":5149.092,"text":"是有這樣定出來他說要年底啊 你說排放 好啦去釐清楚啦 你們兩個不要再不同調啦好不好好 那個環境部委員當然是有標準 我們是要加嚴比現況的標準還要加嚴當然有標準啊會加嚴 會加嚴 當然有標準啊不是 排放標準 跟委員報告 您專心的戴耀新"},{"start":5158.698,"end":5182.358,"text":"我們聚焦!請教!我們聚焦!你預計在年底會把你重研的標準定出是不是?你告訴我時間是不是在12月底以前會拿出來?好!我們拭目以待!接下來本期要請教!中火!中火的環評!真燃氣就要拆藍莓!"},{"start":5183.479,"end":5199.28,"text":"政府應該是如王美化部長當時所做的這個承諾,是不是?我想中火的部分,我們當然是因為減煤是我們第一目標所以我們要把燃氣趕快做起來"},{"start":5201.042,"end":5201.322,"text":"應該就是照承諾走"},{"start":5229.779,"end":5233.981,"text":"臺電董事長你要回答你告訴我時間點你告訴我時間點什麼時候拆那個機組要蓋好才能夠換這是我們承諾的對商場好之後要拆對不對"},{"start":5250.319,"end":5264.61,"text":"那個委員我先說我們現在提出來的審查是把機組留下6部來做國安備用的機組這您簡報上面提到的他不會運轉他要有特別特別的才會運轉那我是覺得"},{"start":5268.052,"end":5271.573,"text":"我們現在燃氣,我們都沒有反對喔!臺南的沒有我們的十分之一臺南都反對,就不做!那臺中呢?臺中我們已經做了喔!我們也歡迎爭氣!那你要猜沒啊?請教什麼時候猜?我們原則上就是機組要上來以後才能夠猜啦!我想說狀況就是這個樣子我想說國安的這個警備機組"},{"start":5296.437,"end":5299.58,"text":"本席請教我們現在承諾的我們預計全部商轉要2035年這也就依照立法院的決定那個是無燃無燃的世界2035年請教王美花部長答應的剛剛部長說的會照承諾我們這兩部你這兩部的燃氣機組商轉成功就是拆掉我們的一基煙燈對不對"},{"start":5321.38,"end":5322.221,"text":"你告訴我前任部長的承諾算不算?"},{"start":5338.521,"end":5342.224,"text":"告訴我前任部長所說的算不算?"},{"start":5357.575,"end":5358.876,"text":"就我的看法我不覺得王部長當時答應了後面這些事我們政務官有我們政務官就要照這個事情"},{"start":5372.708,"end":5379.372,"text":"他沒有答應後面全部都是這樣子做的我想說這要跟委員做報告請你告訴我可以討論但是不可以說這個是王美花部長就承諾了請你告訴我目前在中火在蒸汽的兩部機商轉成功會不會拆我們一支煙燈你告訴我這一點就好2026年底以前會開始拆好2026年開始拆嘛那你早講嘛那是現在的這個機制好這一定要這麼做部長對不對"},{"start":5402.285,"end":5402.686,"text":"好,2026年開始猜,部長是不是如此?"},{"start":5411.158,"end":5432.869,"text":"前二任部長是?我要了解一下因為前一任的交接...答案就是照剛剛台建董事長說的2026年現在這兩部燃氣我們蒸汽就是要拆煤蒸汽就要拆煤你點頭我們一定要達陣成功好不好我們共同努力了這點一定做到"},{"start":5437.256,"end":5437.436,"text":"請邀委員諮詢。"},{"start":5462.901,"end":5476.722,"text":"謝謝主席我先請一下這個水利署署長請賴署長那個郭部長喝口水以後也可以上來"},{"start":5478.818,"end":5478.998,"text":"請郭部長"},{"start":5500.121,"end":5527.839,"text":"就災的這些規劃裡頭．你可不可以簡略說明一下．比如說我們有一些水庫的現實的狀態．跟整個防台的準備．可不可以請署長來簡要說明一下．是．跟委員以及大家說明．那這次抗激颱風．我們看到它的結構越來越完整．那它的行進的方向也是會登陸臺灣的這個．機率比較高一點．所以我們從禮拜一開始就進行了防台的準備．"},{"start":5528.359,"end":5547.159,"text":"那這個準備區分為幾大項第一個是主要的水庫現在都已經到達滿庫的階段所以我們預先調節性的放水所以你們是什麼時候開始放水今天嗎還是禮拜一禮拜一就已經開始在調節性放水了這個是第一個部分第二個部分的話我們盤點了凱米颱風跟山陀爾颱風所受的災點"},{"start":5551.463,"end":5559.556,"text":"那這些的狀況不管是缺口或是搶修搶選都已經完成了這是第二個部分第三個部分我們在做"},{"start":5561.425,"end":5561.985,"text":"好,首長我想"},{"start":5582.058,"end":5605.087,"text":"我會特別問就是說因為這一次的訪台應該是全台警戒所以你水利署掌管全台的這一些河川、水庫等等所以我希望是不是能夠也請水利署的同仁再辛苦一點包括在今天下午、中午以前是不是把所有的抽水站的機組、設備等等都做重新的檢視一遍"},{"start":5606.187,"end":5629.732,"text":"以防這個萬一有大雨的時候這個抽水機不要有臨時故障的情況發生這個部分我可能要請水利署的同仁多辛苦那包括剛剛包括這個台電啦台水啦等等每一次救災的時候都是你們都在第一線這個我可能也要請部長給予我們的同仁多一點衛冕然後也請我們的同仁在這兩天可能要特別繃緊神經好來署長您請回"},{"start":5633.374,"end":5660.37,"text":"來這個部長我想接下來大概就會跟您有相關是今天大家在討論這個所謂的SRF本來今天應該是經濟部的業務報告可是看起來現在大家對經濟部業務報告沒有那麼大的興趣都在談SRF什麼是SRF這個我想我就不用再特別再解釋再說明了那台灣現在的這些所有的使用廠SRF的使用廠環境部有去做過評比"},{"start":5661.891,"end":5683.6,"text":"大概九成是符合你們的這個九成以上的廠商其實是有達標的嘛沒有達標的這些部分你們現在在輔導他們在重新能夠達到這個政府的標準這個我想也是我們對於使用SRF的這樣的一個標準的檢驗甚至連空污的排放等等"},{"start":5684.861,"end":5700.88,"text":"那這些SRF的使用廠全台灣有這麼多家最近大家為什麼我們的招委會特別排這個因為在桃園就產生了問題嘛桃園現在已經有5家在運作的SRF廠"},{"start":5702.491,"end":5727.625,"text":"我也把它列出來了那最近被廢止的三家呢還沒有開始運作有的已經蓋好九成有的蓋好七成有的才剛剛在申請開發許可而已各個情況不一蓋好九成的那一家呢是美商我為什麼會特別要問部長就是說到底還沒有蓋好的你就說他沒有達到標準"},{"start":5728.735,"end":5737.613,"text":"那理由是什麼已經發給人家執照了人家蓋到一半了蓋到九成了已經開始要試運轉了你給他撤照"},{"start":5739.514,"end":5739.974,"text":"我待會要請部長來回答"},{"start":5759.335,"end":5786.565,"text":"那剛剛有委員就講說桃園的蘇俊斌就講說因為你們的這個標準沒有達到歐盟的標準所以他要求要比照歐盟的標準剛剛楊瓊義委員也特別問到環境部你的標準是什麼你的標準有沒有訂出來標準在哪裡來我給你看次長你們下次來做報告的時候不要只有文字啊"},{"start":5787.608,"end":5811.013,"text":"你的標準就在這裡啦你的進熱值是比歐盟還高啊你的綠含量是跟歐盟相同啊你的拱含量也跟歐盟相同啊千含量歐盟沒有訂定但是你跟韓國是相同的啊歐盟沒有的你比照其他的國家的標準歐盟有的你有的是跟歐盟一樣的標準有的是比歐盟還嚴這些東西你要能夠講得出來啊否則委員問你"},{"start":5816.72,"end":5844.746,"text":"你啞巴吃黃蓮啊一句話都回不出來啊次長來說明讓您說明一下吧好謝謝委員我想那個剛剛委員已經把我們現在比照歐盟那歐盟沒有的標準我們比照像韓國他們有沒列進來那我們未來還會去檢討說是不是還有家園的空間至於桃園市政府他們所提的這些建議其實要看他們比照歐盟的是你一定的發電量以上的時候用什麼樣標準"},{"start":5845.606,"end":5852.551,"text":"所以您剛剛的回答我白話文解釋就是說現在有的使用廠現在在桃園的這五家它的標準其實也都沒有到歐盟的標準因為它這是舊的廠了嘛 對不對那你未來新的廠都還沒有蓋好都還沒有使用但是你們檢驗的時候你們要求的標準其實就是要比歐盟更嚴格"},{"start":5875.786,"end":5889.186,"text":"好那舊的廠沒有到那個標準可以繼續用新的廠比歐盟更嚴格不能使用那這個邏輯我就不太懂了各位委員報告不是這樣子現在的使用中的廠都依照我們現在的規定我們現在比較是說依照現在的規定所以它是符合現在的"},{"start":5891.048,"end":5915.823,"text":"要用現在標準去檢視未來的廠是要符合比歐盟更嚴格的標準未來的廠沒有放寬未來的廠還是要用這樣的標準去檢視我要講的是說如果它的發電量超過300MW以上的時候歐盟是有一個另外的標準你不能拿那個發電量來比我們現在的發電量而且我要說明的是我們現在使用中的18廠其實主要都不是用在發電"},{"start":5916.684,"end":5938.135,"text":"因為他們本來就是職場在使用煤炭那取代煤炭的使用有減碳的效果那桃園那新的三個廠其實是專門為了發電而蓋的當然這個部分我們要看地方政府跟居民要做好溝通要保護市民的健康也要考慮到桃園會區處理的去化的問題"},{"start":5938.995,"end":5962.494,"text":"我想這個桃園的廢棄物的去化的問題這個是相對重要保護居民健康這個也很重要我們一直在談SRF剛剛我看到這個經濟部的簡報裡頭特別舉了瑞典的梅拉倫湖發電廠部長我不曉得您有沒有去過那裡或者是您對這個東西有沒有徹底的了解這個是天下雜誌在2020年的報導"},{"start":5966.038,"end":5988.367,"text":"梅拉倫的發電廠過去也是燃煤的他後來在2014年開始慢慢的把燃煤改成燃燒林業廢棄物現在他的所有的燃煤廠已經改燒廢棄物生活廢棄物或者是木質的廢棄物也就是說他把很多東西也做成SRF來燃燒發電"},{"start":5990.268,"end":6008.101,"text":"所以就減碳量就不燃煤減碳量來說這個在你們的報告裡頭都寫得非常的清楚我認為應該要重新定義或者是說要把SRF對於環境所造成的影響減少排碳量減少的這個區塊"},{"start":6009.982,"end":6026.788,"text":"應該要去做詳細的說明如果環境部願意加嚴管制的話我覺得不要讓SRF的這個SRF廠跟SRF的發電廠變成被污名化而造成台灣很多的廢棄物去化"},{"start":6027.728,"end":6030.95,"text":"是完全同意我回去以後會跟環境部我們就委員所指導的這個方向來收集資料然後來定義這個新的這個模式這樣"},{"start":6049.46,"end":6060.531,"text":"另外就是說我剛剛提到一個問題還沒有時間讓您回答就是關於跟美國、美商之間的這一個經濟糾紛、貿易糾紛、官司糾紛的問題我認為經濟部應該要好好處理"},{"start":6065.345,"end":6084.712,"text":"我們會深刻反省這個政權或者是政策政權可以輪替政策是延續所以不能貿然因為現在的市長不同人你就把過去的徐可汗把人家廢止已經蓋好了人家已經蓋好了而且是國外的投資商我聽說這個AIT也"},{"start":6089.096,"end":6094.742,"text":"也非常關心這件事情所以我想這個經濟部應該好好的去處理這件事,謝謝請陳其凱委員質詢張其凱不好意思"},{"start":6128.368,"end":6129.811,"text":"請安保定請郭部長委員好"},{"start":6140.902,"end":6146.346,"text":"現在問題是我也很希望回答趕快到臺灣社場不過今天媒體的反應很多就是講說你會不會畫大餅或者畫餅充其"},{"start":6168.421,"end":6191.176,"text":"所以我們今天 我知道你起筆破字外 你有把握嘛 對不對這個跟氣魄沒關係啦 我是就事論事啦 不知道的人 他要說這樣 我也沒辦法 因為每個人的角度 跟每個人的認知 不會一樣所以我現在同情的就是 所以重點就是我們說到做到嘛 對不對"},{"start":6192.237,"end":6209.379,"text":"當然啦!當然啦!我們說到做到嘛!所以我們今天很明確的來做!國務部長要給揮打的一百億度的綠電要從哪裡來?那具體啊!是啊!對不對!我們今天就來討論要怎麼做嘛!我們把步驟先列一下好不好!有具體的計畫跟時程才不會被外面笑說你是"},{"start":6210.401,"end":6211.001,"text":"這是王陽明12歲所寫的詩"},{"start":6235.779,"end":6264.995,"text":"就是這樣啊,大家各做不一樣,看一個事實,不能這樣說我是畫大餅所以你要印證說你做得到不是畫大餅嘛來,那我們就具體問你,怎麼樣才不是畫大餅嘛幾個步驟至少要做啦,部長等一下,我跟你講第一個,你要達成這個事情,第一個步驟要做,總要聯絡黃仁勳嘛因為委員你剛才在問說黃仁勳說的嘛但是就我們的資料,黃仁勳沒有說要一百億度嘛"},{"start":6266.065,"end":6278.445,"text":"有啦有啦這個是媒體見了好幾次報的嘛OK那沒關係那你認為他要多少沒有那OK那你沒有收聽一個動作嘛不定不定收聽一個動作那你不管他要多少度的電他總是要回來嘛對不對"},{"start":6279.667,"end":6279.987,"text":"這個我們知道的"},{"start":6309.54,"end":6318.216,"text":"沒有 要一個時程表例如說一個禮拜趕快去跟他聯絡好不好你聯絡他 你想不想把他當成我們跟世界大廠做聯絡 要一個評議嗎"},{"start":6320.677,"end":6348.668,"text":"好了聯絡這個事情這個報告委員我不要定時接到國際的大公司都有他的海外的這個時程我想這點你應該是非常清楚啦其實這個應該牽扯到他的這個有一些策略啦策略你把世界都講過了我們當然是陰莽一盪啦陰莽你要努力你是經濟部長嗎你給他好朋友台灣就輸了你當然要去做事啊委員我跟他是朋友沒有錯啦但是我們不能夠"},{"start":6349.895,"end":6368.852,"text":"公開他太多的這個這個前瞻策略啦我這坦白講經營我也你很清楚嗎經營上面有很多的他不回來是不是他不會不回來啦對啊而且你更重要是人民跟你希望他回來我們答應他我們答應他就是投資的幾個要素"},{"start":6369.773,"end":6380.289,"text":"投資幾個要素但其中有一部分就是人力的問題人力的問題我們還在跟他溝通啦人力啦那當然電通重要啦來那我問你你昨天講了一個很重要"},{"start":6381.178,"end":6403.596,"text":"你說你綠電是可以給他的嘛對不對綠電我昨天提醒你喔是啊是綠電喔我講是綠電喔所以我今天跟委員重新報告一次2026年我們經濟部的綠電是可以發出550億度這個不要畫大餅這個馬上就看得到來來來 保定我先問你這個這樣好我請台電來保定我先問你你的目標2026你說500億我問你現在多少"},{"start":6411.407,"end":6413.989,"text":"我們在講說500,那個是我們的計畫,2026年嘛,而且我跟委員報告,就是說時間點"},{"start":6432.389,"end":6441.592,"text":"就是Evan這個回答他現在來臺灣投資也不會馬上要100億度啦我想這個你應該很清楚嘛你現在手上有的現在的綠電多少?"},{"start":6449.295,"end":6451.096,"text":"你這樣講說我昨天有特別跟你報告過了這一個電的多少增量"},{"start":6473.006,"end":6496.517,"text":"沒有線性關係啦!沒有線性關係啦!我們的時間走,可以看多久,這是時間走所產生的總量啦!所以沒有線性關係,這個我昨天也跟你報告過了你兩年後達到這個目標,而且老實講現在是困難的,不然你我提醒一下喔!各地現在那個光電,太陽能光電啦,現在抗爭不斷,像我自己人,一個大山的大坡"},{"start":6498.166,"end":6500.488,"text":"我相信你很關心我啦 所以你會反而說我會跳票 我真的謝謝啦"},{"start":6524.724,"end":6529.388,"text":"昨天也有一個很嚴重的問題,來,我給你看一下。我們沒有整個綠電啊,昨天我在質詢,你看我笑成這樣你知道我在笑什麼?昨天卓榮泰卓院長竟然說我們的綠電現在佔比所有發電的16%"},{"start":6551.278,"end":6563.825,"text":"現在嗎?我到2030年2030年的時候我們有到30%嗎?現在16%?他說不表記喔?是不是口誤?現在多少?現在我們地區電?你知道現在268一度嗎?對不對?知道嗎?對不對?那現在是佔我們的總電量的多少?我可以回答嗎?我可以請裁定那等一下我要求時間要久一點喔來來來,温生你答"},{"start":6581.189,"end":6598.176,"text":"那個委員昨天那個院長報告裡面寫的是這樣因為要我們回答說河山二號機在大修大修的時候我們來這幾天來再生能源的比例是怎樣所以我們就照著題目的規格答說這幾天再生能源的比例大概16%"},{"start":6600.458,"end":6606.865,"text":"他有兩種統計方式,因為你問了一個這樣子的問題,如果你要問整年,整年的話去年大概10%還沒到。那我們接下來的話,狀況是這樣,今年開始併網的離岸風電會越來越多,現在併了超過2.7個Giga。"},{"start":6624.823,"end":6644.352,"text":"陸續會併一直到2526其實最大的增量會是在這個地方所以現在第一個有抗爭我跟你講你那個併不併而成或者是這是第一個問題嘛昨天到底 欸 柏定這個事情很重要喔 是昨天是不是院長信口開河我不要說他87了喔欸你昨天是在旁邊的喔你昨天站在旁邊你沒有幫他拿錢對不對我們現在的綠電沒有占我們的發電的總量的16%嘛答案應該是多少"},{"start":6653.602,"end":6661.287,"text":"昨天是首長口誤,第二個是你們提供舊的資料、臭的資料,第三個同樣的報告委員,這個可能是我們是針對你所問的那個問題來回答阿現在就沒有16%,我們台灣當時綠電已經到了電量,來來來,我給大家看答案,來來來,你要跟我爭辯這個來,我們看一下"},{"start":6681.286,"end":6683.187,"text":"在去年啦我們的總發電量是2823億度對不對"},{"start":6687.093,"end":6709.927,"text":"綠電佔多少?再生能源佔多少?9.5%嘛!這是古年文生力道講的嘛對不對?去年不到10% 9.5%好我用最新的喔用最新的看右邊這個圖今年到目前為止1到8月用1月到8月的這個最新資料1922億度我們再生能源多少?10.5欸阿10.5長在國會殿堂對著我們講說我們已經不是10.5公16%"},{"start":6715.691,"end":6720.494,"text":"我跟你講我還特別去看了你們最近這幾天的啦到16的也非常少啦"},{"start":6744.181,"end":6762.408,"text":"所以這個有問題,我告訴你沒有,第一個我記得我們對全體資料交代清楚,第一個博院長在立法院在國會電廠有沒有講錯話不要說他白白的,可是他這個資料有問題你們要很清楚跟他,對不對不是,我們大家屬於專業的去年只有綠電在深圳只有9.5%今年到8月只有10.5%到目前為止"},{"start":6769.11,"end":6792.148,"text":"也不可能是16%這個灌水太嚴重,要趕快更正好不好報告委員您講的都是對的但是我們所引述的資料跟有一些不一樣我們是講那天嘛那天你在問那天的比例啦你是講幾年多的啦所以這個是在大家論述的點不太一樣啊您也是對的我們院長也是對的啦"},{"start":6793.469,"end":6811.226,"text":"你那天你回去查一下我再問他那天是16號你如果說用這個圖來那個月裡面只有颱風來那幾天有超過16大部分都沒有16沒有不要爭辯讓證據講話分母不一樣啦分母不一樣大家引述的資料的分母不一樣那現在最重要保定我剛剛這個質詢很重要的"},{"start":6813.889,"end":6836.748,"text":"就是你的綠電老講是不過的那你要去那邊找綠電這個第一個你趕快去跟黃仁堅談趕快叫他你剛剛講嘛人力嘛電我們幫忙趕快讓他回來全台灣都希望嘛對不對阿第二個你要弄清楚他的綠電到底有多少你能夠給他多少第三個你的電力啊你這個綠電不過你要從哪邊來現在有人在笑你啊你弄到後來怎麼樣真的要嘛你有新的技術嘛"},{"start":6837.549,"end":6838.25,"text":"黃仁欣說的是三部曲"},{"start":6861.721,"end":6888.453,"text":"德雷他說先說要100億度的電第二個一公尺就這句話他說核能是最理想的能源他還講了一句話他說核能也是綠電你去查這個都是有資料可循的所以你現在還有一條活路啊你不用到菲律賓去買電回來啊你用核能就可以啦我跟你講昨天為什麼會出現院長這個錯誤我現在可以另外一個可能性回到上個圖我給大家看一下你有沒有發現"},{"start":6890.151,"end":6907.82,"text":"一到八月份再生能源綠電10.5對不對如果加上左邊那個核能5.4%剛好就是16了你不是心裡把核能也認為綠電可以用嗎你把這個加起來就是16現在不管是不是故意或者是無意我跟你講好好用核能黃誠心都這樣講啦"},{"start":6909.957,"end":6917.021,"text":"謝謝委員最後我問一件事情常常你跟院長一直給我爭執一個東西你說啊大家都用RE100你知道嗎現在大家更流行的是什麼已經到了全時無碳電力了就是CFE"},{"start":6939.899,"end":6968.208,"text":"當初RE100啊連那個創始的會員國會員的最大企業亞馬遜現在都退出了他都已經加入CFE了CFE現在有多少?微軟、三菱電機、Google都是啊亞馬遜現在都進來了更重要的他是官方的他是聯合國能源組織攜手25家以上的大的企業跟組織共同倡議的他都認為核能要用啊"},{"start":6969.448,"end":6969.468,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":7002.625,"end":7023.261,"text":"在陳廷飛委員諮詢完畢,我們休息5分鐘,現在請鄭正前委員諮詢。謝謝主席,我想請一下郭部長跟沈長翅。還有沈長翅。"},{"start":7030.745,"end":7051.443,"text":"非常早現在主席今天安排了就是我們經濟部的夜報然後也針對SRF的一個相關的一個問題進行一個專報然後我在想說說實話我覺得經濟部在講到經濟發展的時候我跟環境部他們是有些立場有時候會有一些些的一個衝突所以今天我們的環境部跟"},{"start":7052.624,"end":7065.914,"text":"經濟部一起在這邊備詢我覺得這機會其實也是挺難得不過我想說我首先先問一下郭部長你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開那他們這次要延到11月4號到11月8號"},{"start":7068.736,"end":7088.407,"text":"才開始召開而且預計會提出一個實照刺激經濟的一個財政方案那日本其實他們是在上週其實也選完了那個國會選舉然後他們預計在11月11號才要做那個首相的改選那這裡面都有一個共同點就是他們都配合了一個美國大選的一個問題"},{"start":7090.009,"end":7110.947,"text":"那美國大選這邊的時候因為目前坦白說競爭也是很激烈可是因為有特定候選人他不斷的表示說臺灣偷了美國的晶片那針對這個問題的時候我不知道說我們的經濟部是不是有些特別的一個做法能夠去因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個問題可不請部長簡單做個回應"},{"start":7114.689,"end":7128.534,"text":"這裏面我想就像剛才委員所指教的這裏面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題所以我們現在在美國的這個選舉的最後的這段日子裏面其實是不便來"},{"start":7130.294,"end":7158.901,"text":"明姐不過我相信其實對於整個美國大選結果之後一定會對台灣的產業產生一些的影響所以我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠提早因應那些有一些備案有A方案有B方案一起來做一個相對的一個因應謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分在國安系統上面都有應該都有準備經濟部當然是會做一些這個simulation就是說針對哪一位"},{"start":7160.161,"end":7165.584,"text":"那我想說部長因為我剛剛聽到那個委員在問你那個我發現你國學能力其實很強就是可以背出一個很好的一個詩詞出來我在講畫大餅這件事情的時候我最近把那個背了表示你的中文底子是挺好的"},{"start":7186.494,"end":7206.132,"text":"但我在想說針對畫餅這個事情的時候因為我們之前追問過很多次有關於你不斷的提到2030之前台灣不缺電也不缺綠電這件事情那我覺得你有一個前提就是在現有的計畫當中如果能夠如期進行可是呢因為重點在於是不是能夠如期進行所以它的執行力其實很關鍵"},{"start":7207.413,"end":7228.118,"text":"我這邊只是要特別去提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分的時候顯然就碰到了有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題所以我在這邊也想問一下就是我們環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中是不是有足夠的能力去處理然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通的一個狀態"},{"start":7230.441,"end":7251.651,"text":"我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標啦就我想委員應該很清楚我從民間來的話我做事情的風格就是全力以赴那能夠達標為止啦所以您剛所指導的這個部分包括這個跟民間溝通的這件事情我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手"},{"start":7253.211,"end":7253.451,"text":"理解齁"},{"start":7268.157,"end":7294.294,"text":"那部長那因為那個我想針對沈次長剛剛有回答其他委員問題的時候提到說今年年底前的時候針對SRF的一個相關的一個法令規定會先具體出來對不對那我在這邊也特別因為很多委員也都具體提到了就是我們目前就對材料的部分比照歐盟的標準可是對空污的部分並沒有比照歐盟的標準因為依照現在空污法當中的時候我們的標準相對寬鬆的這邊可以請次長這邊先簡單回應一下嗎"},{"start":7300.019,"end":7302.943,"text":"那我問一下,我們的立狀污染物的排放標準是多少?"},{"start":7317.64,"end":7343.84,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前桃園市政府的副市長也有做建議桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議那我要藉這個機會做一個說明就是歐盟他對於這個發電量的這個規模有不同的標準那因為我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的那所以針對比方說氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎"},{"start":7344.84,"end":7346.061,"text":"國發會在2030年的部分有特別提到"},{"start":7374.084,"end":7385.611,"text":"希望國防會在109年提到2030年的時候我們的除能設備的目標值是多少?部長你知道嗎?我是不是請這個能源署來報告一下?"},{"start":7386.448,"end":7411.416,"text":"報告委員整個儲能我們是分成並往型儲能1GW然後在發電端的是500MW我看到數字的時候有時候國發會這邊希望說在109年的那個前三七五建設當中的那個支持推動民間建設的時候是提到3GW的啦那我在想說到目前為止齁到今年目前為止的時候我們已完工的一個全國的儲能電廠的容量是多少有沒有具體數字"},{"start":7416.584,"end":7434.109,"text":"我想我們應該是有距離舒適我們除能的話我們現在有這個新的發電模式然後可以讓這個除能的這個市場"},{"start":7436.147,"end":7460.834,"text":"能夠得到更大的這個意見那個部長我這邊先簡單講一下如果沒有數字的時候因為坦白說我們在這個會期當中的時候其實從去年到從上個會議到現在的時候我發現經濟部確實很想要努力去發展綠電這部分然後也在排除一些目前碰到的一些阻礙那這部分本席是肯定的包括有關於有一些"},{"start":7462.915,"end":7469.592,"text":"與電共生等等相關的問題上次有跟部長諮詢過那我看到數字的時候到目前為止的時候我們的純能電廠的"},{"start":7472.774,"end":7490.198,"text":"農量是1.3G那但是到台電到2025年的時候我看到數字是只要1G所以目前是有點超前那超前坦白說也不一定是好也不一定是不好可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠卻出現了一個退廠潮"},{"start":7492.879,"end":7517.291,"text":"很多人出現退場潮在過程當中的時候為什麼出現這個退場潮一定有一些相關的問題產生那我這邊因為今天有那個環境部的次長在這邊我想特別提到在這1.3GW目前的一顆剛剛那個政務院董事長也點頭這數字是對的對不對是對的嘛那我想問一下1.3GW的那個出電廠的時候要用到多少的鋰電池"},{"start":7521.58,"end":7540.937,"text":"要用到多少鋰電池?有沒有誰可以回答?我們回去瞭解一下好,瞭解一下回答我因為坦白說我們跟經濟部這邊要資料要了好多天也都沒有達到具體的數字所以就是農業署長這邊有數字嗎?1.3G需要用多少鋰電池?"},{"start":7543.294,"end":7566.926,"text":"我們回覆以後我們馬上瞭解然後跟各位報告好那我為什麼可以問到這個狀態因為之前在籌設出門電廠的時候坦白說非常的寬鬆只要有土地使用許可有台電的一個匱限就可以設所以基本上在過程當中對於消防對於安全對於整個廢棄物的處理都沒有相關的規定"},{"start":7568.547,"end":7577.351,"text":"後來慢慢補救的時候呢現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來可是對於整個廢棄物的處理目前有沒有具體的一個處理的標準"},{"start":7580.037,"end":7580.057,"text":"市長"},{"start":7610.937,"end":7625.183,"text":"是,產業規模大那裡的時候就會進來是,這就是我特別要提到的問題就是說到目前為止我們只針對一公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的一個機制一公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的"},{"start":7625.603,"end":7651.216,"text":"所以本席這邊也特別希望就是我們經濟部跟環境部這邊的時候能夠針對鋰電池的一個工業使用的一個回收能夠盡快定出一個標準出來那尤其是鋰電池失火的問題到目前為止有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場那個郭部長知不知道"},{"start":7653.527,"end":7658.72,"text":"你是說鋰電池失火的問題嗎?對,到目前有多少的出能電廠已經退出市場你知道嗎?"},{"start":7659.757,"end":7678.087,"text":"現在很多人在經營上面因為他沒有被使用了那我們現在就是會去了解這些問題因為他可以不在他原來的目的事業目的上面去做他其實轉到其他的這個理解這種事你剛剛要補充哪一個部分你可不可以補充一下我們現在在做深度節能就是ESCO的時候會用到儲電"},{"start":7685.211,"end":7686.493,"text":"我們在用Exco的時候"},{"start":7706.794,"end":7734.842,"text":"綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟"},{"start":7735.622,"end":7764.371,"text":"環境部這邊 社長你簡單回答對 太陽能板的部分事實上現在已經有收基金就是每千瓦要收一千塊那這個部分我們已經有部分國內的廠商投入研發所以只要有 只要有破損 比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理"},{"start":7765.071,"end":7765.571,"text":"請陳迪菲委員質詢"},{"start":7795.154,"end":7796.675,"text":"經濟部開過兩次會議了兩次準備會議"},{"start":7824.312,"end":7847.051,"text":"都準備好了嗎?這是57年來首個11月登錄的球台喔!報告委員,應該水跟電都準備好了?水跟電都沒有問題了。那水的部分,我們從地方到中央的責任,我們都劃分清楚了嗎?誰要負責什麼?我是不是請水利署長來跟您報告?"},{"start":7849.181,"end":7863.881,"text":"這個部分都已經有明確的分工,而且我們在禮拜一的時候都跟地方政府產生橫向的聯繫。確定嗎?我想我們都在基層,署長你很清楚,只要是有颱風我們幾乎都在基層跑。"},{"start":7864.922,"end":7884.78,"text":"我常常也都直接跟署長直接要求說哇哪邊需要來做協助然後我們的抽水機應該怎麼去配置怎麼去幫忙我相信署長應該接過我很多通的電話包括第六河川局等等所以我們在基層跑的時候我們發現一個問題從我們海米颱風來的時候當時候也是哇整個"},{"start":7891.653,"end":7904.569,"text":"完全這個風雲變色一瞬間所以我們知道說在第一線的所有抽水機的調度地方跟中央的配置該怎麼分工"},{"start":7906.678,"end":7930.784,"text":"對,第一個部分地方當然他有擁有他的這個抽水機除此之外我們中央也是會有那我在禮拜一的時候也跟我們當然啊地方跟中央都要有啊可是我為什麼會用這個問題來質詢署長就你在地方的權責跟中央的權責你有整個大牌中牌小牌嗎"},{"start":7931.704,"end":7956.588,"text":"那個系統是不一樣的嘛抽水機有小台有中台有大台嘛可是你知道嗎在我們凱敏颱風的第一線的經驗是我們根本調不到抽水機啊為什麼調不到抽水機因為怎麼都被搶光然後呢在排水系統我們跟好不容易跟中央調到抽水機結果太大了"},{"start":7957.506,"end":7975.12,"text":"太大了那個孔裝不進去啊所以我一直在說地方跟中央的權責在第一時間是不是可以救急我們的小排、中排、大排整個抽水管路的大小口徑"},{"start":7976.829,"end":7997.023,"text":"是不是能夠符合我們抽水機的一個需求?誰在做這個調度?誰在做這個分配?在我們中央應變中心都會有一個統一的調度開明的時候確實因為災情相當的嚴峻所以我們從全國各地有調到抽水機到南部地方去但是這些的數量"},{"start":7997.583,"end":7998.144,"text":"誰在做這個掌控?"},{"start":8018.107,"end":8031.666,"text":"就是說我們凱米已經發生這個狀態了我為什麼一直強調57年來首個11月登錄的邱台它的狀況有可能會更慘而且瞬間的影響會更大"},{"start":8032.921,"end":8049.334,"text":"所以我們要怎麼樣把凱米他過去我們所得到的一些教訓然後在這一個部分做調和誰掌控第一時間我們的抽水機誰在掌控第二我們要到第一線到底他的口徑"},{"start":8050.695,"end":8079.24,"text":"你的口徑沒有處理好運到現場浪費人力、浪費精力甚至如果有需要的我們如果可以第一時間過去的話是不是能夠救急而且又得到比較萬全的一些協助可是你今天如果大的抽水機然後運到現場不能用浪費時間又浪費了所有第一時間可以預防的狀態"},{"start":8080.549,"end":8100.187,"text":"是,謝謝委員提點。這些部分我們針對凱米之後都有進行相關的改善的工作。那我們在中央應變中心今天上午的5點30分已經成立了一級的開設。所以針對抽水溪的調度,包括管線的這個部分,如何避免抗熱颱風對我們造成"},{"start":8102.109,"end":8102.729,"text":"主長,因為凱米確實是讓我們在瞬間的雨量"},{"start":8123.66,"end":8123.68,"text":"對．是"},{"start":8150.698,"end":8174.025,"text":"我們拜託署長我們把凱米再盤整一下凱米當時候沒有辦法到位的問題然後盤整而且不是中央地方也要拉緊神經啦中央地方所以我剛剛會說你們的全責劃分好了嗎你們很用心在做可是如果地方也是放鈴鈴"},{"start":8175.492,"end":8196.99,"text":"也是沒有用啊這個我們在今天的這個應變的會議裡面我們還會再通知地方這個部分要拜託一下就是說我們在防災應變中心我們中央跟地方的權責在應急救急的整個調度怎麼去分工怎麼給最有效的訊息跟資訊"},{"start":8198.551,"end":8219.756,"text":"這是重要,若有資訊落差,你怎麼調度就不好啦,調去就是沒用盡嘛,所以資訊不能有落差,這是我非常強調的。我們在第一線調度,我們自己都發生這個問題啊,調到現在說,哇,那個口徑我們的抽水機到現場太大了。"},{"start":8221.375,"end":8221.555,"text":"兩枚立筆"},{"start":8251.415,"end":8277.301,"text":"因為我們現在電價漲了之後雖然我們有分離峰時間、半尖峰時間跟尖峰時間可是你知道嗎傳產現在這一波他們計算下來只要是用電大戶它的級距是加倍從7%有可能到14%可是你知道嗎現在傳產發生一個問題他說"},{"start":8280.916,"end":8309.261,"text":"委員你今天叫我們要拚經濟叫我們要去拿訂單結果我們訂單拿得越多我們的產量越多我們用電量越多結果集聚是用跳的兩倍跳結果兩倍跳之後它可以增加回過頭來跟我們的訂單增加成本嗎?不行啊不能啊所以他說的我訂單拿越多我料路多啊"},{"start":8310.865,"end":8331.32,"text":"因為他原本給的價格就是這樣但是當你台電在往上攀升加倍循環的一個價格他不能回饋到原始所以所有的傳統產業說阿你現在是別人說大高家來不要再徵訂單了不要再搶訂單了"},{"start":8333.464,"end":8359.591,"text":"所以我這幾天聽到傳產這樣的一個回應我嚇到了這確實啊所以我就掉了我們在這一次對於電的一個調漲確實是這個狀況可是我們問了台電台電說沒有啦我們有這個離峰時間半尖峰時間跟尖峰時間他們是可以依照他們的數據可是傳產都是24小時欸"},{"start":8363.145,"end":8375.558,"text":"傳產都是24小時的,輪三班的,傳統生涯都是過去,在拚經濟幹一頓一腳,賠償照片天堂的。他們是在拚經濟跟時間賽跑的。所以你說這個離峰時間、半尖峰時間跟尖峰時間對他們來講,一點幫助都沒有。"},{"start":8386.5,"end":8386.941,"text":"來,那個董事長"},{"start":8411.005,"end":8434.625,"text":"報告委員那個7%、14%不是累進的這第一件事第二件事跟委員報告衰退的要衰退的才會有那個7%還漲但他也是隨著時間比較隨著那個就是說景氣復甦他還是會不是啊董事長你聽不懂我的意思我講的是現在當然不是衰退是現在他目前他還在"},{"start":8438.268,"end":8458.3,"text":"真訂單它是我們在整個經濟狀況還OK的傳產那這些傳產它面臨的問題是當它在目前的狀況之下它的%數是如此當然不是累進啊可是它到了某一個坡度它就會往上跳"},{"start":8459.019,"end":8478.676,"text":"我跟委員報告就是在電價的調整上這幾年來的調整其實狀況是大概看得到一個調整的協率沒有 董事長基本上我們最近會得到那麼多產業的一個聲音你們是不是應該要去成立一個平台"},{"start":8479.477,"end":8504.357,"text":"去協助所有傳產他在整個用電的狀況否則他絕對不敢去接電他要說他不敢接電的大我跟委員報告那個部長已經一再指示我們要做這件事我們會來做這件事並沒有啊並沒有啊就並沒有啊報告委員這個我們要趕快加緊速度啦我們是方向方法都有啦那我們現在就是執行力要提高"},{"start":8505.398,"end":8522.62,"text":"對阿,那你這個平台都沒有出來,傳展現在就對於說．中小微企業上面我們利用這一次的這個數位化還有這個深度節能這兩個方式,這個雙軸引擎下去可以幫助提高競爭力"},{"start":8523.621,"end":8540.346,"text":"你說的智慧化對他們來講不是數位化我們幫助他說才有辦法智慧化數位化跟智慧化你這個部分要什麼時候去達到讓他們可以管控然後第二個你說要節能"},{"start":8541.646,"end":8556.739,"text":"說真的要解的空間實在不大你應該去了解所有的傳產傳產的狀況他們其實每一次配合你們的所謂要一趴調整一趴調整大家是有夠辛苦的但是又要接訂單"},{"start":8558.3,"end":8577.457,"text":"然後又沒有辦法得到我們政府關愛的眼神你說船產請問你們用了多少力量在關心船產?這個我們現在組織上面當然有調整所以我們會要求實際上面在執行力上面要看到成果我發現我會落實要求這個中小企業署跟這個產發署"},{"start":8583.335,"end":8595.904,"text":"實際去落實這個計畫部長一個月一個月讓我們看到你做出什麼樣的起步我不敢要求說看到成果啦起步你到底對於傳產這一個所謂輔導光這個電光這個電喔"},{"start":8601.227,"end":8601.447,"text":"是!是!"},{"start":8631.26,"end":8644.568,"text":"我可以了解委員你所指教的我都可以了解所以我現在就是回到你說的一個月來這個那個平台先建立起來怎麼去協助所有傳產在整個所謂數位化"},{"start":8648.05,"end":8665.544,"text":"還有節能的部分怎麼去做處理?沒有,可是你們做的節能都是那種很表面象徵的你們並沒有了解各個產業的需要這才是最嚴重的你都只是叫大家照本宣科然後從我們的電腦當中然後寫書面"},{"start":8668.906,"end":8690.258,"text":"用書面這不對的產業的需要每個產業別他有不同的需要還有每個產業別有不同的一個狀況是委員你講的所指導的我完全能夠了解我也是這樣要求我的部署如果一個月內沒有看到成績那我會換掉這個部署"},{"start":8691.923,"end":8692.804,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":8732.352,"end":8747.758,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響．及設置SRF發電廠對我國環境之影響"},{"start":8754.778,"end":8756.56,"text":"有來吟詩作罪我們都嚇到我從小就會這樣講"},{"start":8784.241,"end":8794.514,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8798.285,"end":8821.954,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8826.278,"end":8826.938,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8851.303,"end":8852.204,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8879.352,"end":8881.096,"text":"不要去轉述的情形輸出"},{"start":8891.554,"end":8911.751,"text":"你有聽到黃明志說的嗎?你是聽其他的人說黃明志說的嗎?五、六十年,就是就像你嘛,人家要演藝人體嘛,他不能倒聽聽說那種話。但是我說他提出來的不是律師,是要律師。我跟你講,這是看的,我們其實用常理來看一件事,好不好?他講的"},{"start":8924.319,"end":8924.339,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8941.985,"end":8944.147,"text":"我們現在的那100億度﹖我的功力"},{"start":8971.42,"end":8972.063,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長"},{"start":8979.766,"end":8980.527,"text":"沒有啦 我跟你講"},{"start":9008.831,"end":9008.871,"text":"好,謝謝,要繼續開會"},{"start":9038.138,"end":9061.825,"text":"請謝一鳳委員質詢。謝謝主席。我想請郭部長。請郭部長。還有我們水利署署長。請賴署長。"},{"start":9066.342,"end":9089.931,"text":"委員長,部長,你知道吧,颱風要來了,去找他一下,好嗎?這跟你們水利學有非常大的關係耶,你知道嗎?你應該知道吧?署長都不見了,慘了,你看你署長落跑了,是不是因為颱風太大了,署長都落跑了,會不會災情像上次一樣嚴重?"},{"start":9092.517,"end":9120.086,"text":"蘇長來了你不講是不是他去那個上洗手間啦蘇長你落跑了是不是他去關心災情颱風太大你落跑了是不是那個委員我們對於那個抗壞颱風的部分我們現在加強準備那今天也跟縣長有通過電話那針對於凱米颱風之前對於彰化縣境內的所有的淹水的問題他現在已經有產生開始預布"},{"start":9121.344,"end":9137.178,"text":"對阿!對於我們大成地區、河美地區、鹿港地區上一次淹水的情況那這一次會不會再次發生?這個屬於縣政府所管的這個部分他已經在加強準備那我們對於縣政府未來治理的需求那是何舉管的呢?"},{"start":9138.755,"end":9163.469,"text":"社會局管的部分呢?社會局管當然我們禮拜一就已經開始做黃台的準備了有沒有開始做了?一定啊 有啊是不是那這一次颱風來的時候會不會發生像上一次有可能潰堤的情況呢?我們做最好的這個準備嘛因應這個最壞的狀況那對於相關的不管是"},{"start":9164.912,"end":9185.74,"text":"在河川內的就是說海堤的就是堤防以及相關的區域治水有沒有辦法協助長化縣那當然有啊有啊系統性的我們區域排水總共是26億那還加上治理的還加上了整個計畫26家26家幾億26家8億有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":9192.677,"end":9221.607,"text":"我們現在都已經開始在進行設計之中了已經在設計了嗎對希望經濟部可以大力的協助因為畢竟到時候如果淹水了可能所有的產業設施很多委員所關心的不管是產業的問題不管是農業的問題都會發生非常重大的損失我希望經濟部可以做好準備可以嗎"},{"start":9222.627,"end":9242.264,"text":"這個部長多次的叮嚀除了委員說明了之外對於比如說弱勢的地方不可中斷的營運不可中斷的地方我們都已經在加強在做處理這裡面包括抽水機的這個調度還有治理的工作好 謝謝喔 謝謝署長我現在想要請台電"},{"start":9249.309,"end":9253.404,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9259.715,"end":9280.848,"text":"現在我們台灣全年度的用電是2765億度台積電一家就用了247.75度占了大概是8%那整個半導體占多少%你應該知道吧應該是12%"},{"start":9283.561,"end":9302.606,"text":"我想請教,如果半導體的用電佔了12%,他們的用電大部分都是綠電,是不是?是的大部分都是,那我們現在台灣整體的綠電目前到達幾%?16%?上一次你們說16%,是不是?是的"},{"start":9308.168,"end":9315.187,"text":"那剩下來的只有4%那4%裡面我們中小企業可以用到幾%"},{"start":9318.103,"end":9344.022,"text":"我們現在是看這樣子啦就是說到底要用綠我們這個是比例啦全國發電的比例大概16%是綠電啦但是用綠電的人大概需要用綠電的產生除了半導體以外其他的中小企業哪一些需要產生綠電團體也可能需要啊如果未來他們要出口他們就需要綠電了這怎麼處理"},{"start":9346.024,"end":9361.744,"text":"我們當然就是統計他們需要需求量然後幫助他們第一個可以買到綠電第二個幫助他們能夠節能又能夠減碳我想剛才也有很多的委員就這個節能減碳這個問題"},{"start":9363.146,"end":9390.835,"text":"我知道你在提倡的是ASCO就是能夠深度節能的部分那目前中小企業來共同來做這個深度節能你們經濟部協助了多少那但是未來最大的情況就是這4%除了高科技產業所用的這12%的綠電剩下的4%的綠電你怎麼樣子能夠給中小企業以及你們未來"},{"start":9391.775,"end":9396.477,"text":"我們現在綠電的就是從發電的部分來看就是最快速的方法就是從風力"},{"start":9412.242,"end":9439.47,"text":"然後太陽能再來水利再來就是地熱第三生殖能我們有5、6種方式可以再提高綠電的這個量現在都是同時在進行中我們預計是這樣子本來是2025年底要能夠達到這個20%但是現在因為過去的一些總統原因那delay到2026年的11月可以達標那麼就綠電來講"},{"start":9441.972,"end":9453.646,"text":"2026年的這個年底的時候我們大概可以發到550億度所以這個這樣子的一個亮年我們其實是可以滿足到2030年"},{"start":9455.509,"end":9481.701,"text":"那我想請問為什麼不用核電?那所謂的原本的核電跟你所謂的新核能有什麼差別?報告委員我想你也是非常清楚這個核電是潔淨的能源對減碳是有幫助的但是核電不是綠電我知道我們現在目前2030年之前努力的方向是趕快讓需要綠電的人滿足它"},{"start":9482.827,"end":9483.167,"text":"對,我問你的是"},{"start":9510.476,"end":9532.725,"text":"現在所謂的核電跟新核能有什麼差異性那新核能它增加的成本更高那對於我們整體的減碳有什麼幫助是 報告委員我想這個命題我們都是可以討論的所以還在討論是不是我想應該是在討論因為我們如果確定這個"},{"start":9535.357,"end":9558.333,"text":"安全沒有問題。第二個,核廢料是可以處理的。第三個,全民有共識。那這個三個前提都是可以解開的。那我們目前碰到的問題是這樣子。我想您指導的這個核三的問題,或者核二的問題。這個我們現在在這個法令上面,它還是沒有辦法。我們必須要先把這個法解開以後。"},{"start":9559.485,"end":9579.46,"text":"那才可以去充分的去解決這個問題這個法如果沒有辦法解開的話我現在經濟部必須要依法行事那依法行事也就是說我現在的設備時間到了40年到了他就要停機我如果要重新啟用必須在5年前"},{"start":9580.401,"end":9583.263,"text":"那不用核電的情況下是不是就增加了火力的發電?"},{"start":9600.991,"end":9625.399,"text":"沒有啊,不一定,我剛才講過了,不增加的話,我們有很多的方法有啊,你現在台中的那個,現在要今天下午要審議的那個燃氣機組他就超過了原本的火力發電的容量啊,是不是?那不就是在增加嗎?那個用電量是可以增加,然後減碳量可以大幅降低"},{"start":9626.17,"end":9633.215,"text":"用電量增加,那你不是在增加火力發電嗎?你不就在增加火力發電嗎?是不是?只是把它從燃煤變成燃氣嘛,是不是?不是,我們現在如果"},{"start":9642.711,"end":9642.911,"text":"火力是綠電嗎?"},{"start":9668.271,"end":9674.779,"text":"火力當然不是綠電所以我們將來會用氫來捕捉這個碳用氫能來捕捉碳這個我們也在研究開發一方面我們加快那個綠能的開發所以我的綠能是在"},{"start":9687.734,"end":9701.129,"text":"在我們這個時候不斷的在加發太陽能光電或者是水力發電或地熱的發電或者是風力的發電那風力除了陸域的風電以外我們還有離岸的風電"},{"start":9703.391,"end":9731.08,"text":"那這個部分其實是我認為可以得到更大的這個support如果大家願意支持我們台電發多更多的這個電廠我相信就是大家在看這台積電它用那麼多電半導體用那麼多電我們中小微的企業也需要做這麼多電臺灣就是一個以出口為導向以世界為我們的市場的這樣的一個國家的話我們必須要滿足所有企業大中小微"},{"start":9731.92,"end":9732.1,"text":"請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":9758.885,"end":9786.949,"text":"好謝謝我們主席那我們先請經濟部郭部長請郭部長委員好部長好部長這個我想大家也是非常關心電的問題阿我想身為交流委員會的委員今天特別來這邊問一件事情就是電價對於交通的衝擊阿到底這個大眾運輸算不算民生用電部長"},{"start":9787.915,"end":9788.356,"text":"您這個問題是非常好"},{"start":9796.516,"end":9822.822,"text":"我們可以考慮大眾用電是不是民生用電是嗎?目前是不是?我們可以來跟這個電價審議委員討論這個命題好,謝謝部長因為其實這一次這個問題我在兩個禮拜前就先問了說貴部這個電價審議委員會有沒有把公共運輸業的這個影響放進電價審議委員會裡面討論但是直到這個昨天晚上我是問有沒有而已我還沒有問內容啊"},{"start":9823.542,"end":9847.047,"text":"昨天晚上來回應我所以導致我今天必須來問你嘛如果他們早點回應我的話我今天就不會來問你了好不好你們目前當然就回應完了所以我希望經濟部是一個應該是一個全台灣最有效率理論上應該是有最有效率的部會不要拖這麼久才回那好像一樣回到大眾運輸因為我看這個昨天晚上回應給我們的這文件裡面提到這個台鐵、高鐵、捷運這些大眾運輸電價可能會調漲因為他們屬於"},{"start":9849.667,"end":9849.827,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":9876.701,"end":9893.855,"text":"我們的公共運輸業大部分的費率都是國家可以做調控的那就整個行政院來討論這些大眾運輸如果因為電價而產生需要補貼這個也是在院裡面有討論就是由目的事業主管機關來編列預算補貼"},{"start":9896.617,"end":9914.199,"text":"這是一種使用者付費的反應那他跟一般的商業比方說我們零售的小吃攤等等他的費率是不會受政府管制這完全是兩件事情所以要跟委員報告是他在公用性上面是足夠的"},{"start":9915.18,"end":9934.91,"text":"但某種程度上它的費率是可以被政府管控的所以最重要是運算有目的是事業主管機能來考慮那如果我要提醒就是說因為如果把它列為電價上漲的部分到最後還是靠政府補貼那也有可能後續也有討論在交通委員會那邊也討論到底不要漲價我要提的是說如果漲價之後很多人"},{"start":9935.51,"end":9953.486,"text":"尤其是坐捷運坐火車的人他如果漲價了他寧願回去騎機車那跟整個國家的這個減碳希望說大家搭乘大眾運輸的這個邏輯我想要被道歉所以這特別提出來提醒一下好那接下來換下一個昨天我想大家也看到說AIT這個處長講說這個臺灣會因為這個綠電水不足來出走那我想這個我們院長馬上出來幫經濟部講話說不會臺灣的電一定夠用"},{"start":9962.573,"end":9979.842,"text":"但是有點牛頭不在馬嘴因為這個包含說昨天的AIT有講這個是綠電的問題那之前去年的美國商會的台灣白皮2023台灣白皮書也提到這個再生能源的發展不如預期也會影響我們產業的運作那包含我們近期這個我們台大電的我們台灣綠電的這個吳范生創辦人也講"},{"start":9983.224,"end":9995.296,"text":"這個核三廠停機以後台灣可能這個核電除以之後綠電可能也不足啊那我們看一下部長剛剛自己在講的這個台灣的現在的再生能源綠電的結構16%但是我看去年2023年這個是台電公司的這個報告"},{"start":10000.5,"end":10021.916,"text":"發電的結構發電發過電壓的結構裡面綠電的佔比太陽能風能水力加起來有的沒有的加起來大約只佔百分之十所以我們就確定說你這個百分之十六到底從何而來啊所以再回過頭來講今天古立言講的是說綠電不夠我們看到去年的綠電合計再生能源不是綠電再生能源合計242.9億度台積電去年用電就230億度了"},{"start":10027.701,"end":10033.461,"text":"換句話說如果全台灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話我們綠電所剩無幾那請問部長我們要去哪裏生出綠電出來"},{"start":10035.287,"end":10060.657,"text":"綠電的部分我們有很多的方式在創電嘛剛才我想跟很多委員都討論過了我們的綠電我們創電的部分來自於風力來自於光電來自於水力來自於這些我都知道結構上有寫啦我是說去年就是這樣子數字而已啊那你這個16怎麼來的這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係"},{"start":10063.593,"end":10073.488,"text":"就是說每一年每個月做多少,不會。它是我同時下去做,然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的。所以這個創電的時間不一樣。"},{"start":10077.779,"end":10105.937,"text":"他的量不一樣所以得到的結果會不一樣所以沒有線性關係所以你的16的計算不是用他每年度的發電發購電量結果是用某一天他曾經達到16%就認為我們的綠電有16%嗎我是不是請這個他們專家跟你報告一下好沒關係我們時間因為我是外委會時間比較少本來部長後面後續提供書面包給我你們那個16到底怎麼算出來的那回到這個電的問題我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠要自己讓它環評的部分"},{"start":10107.309,"end":10119.432,"text":"現階段10部機組就550萬千瓦如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組蓋到6部燃氣機組之後它的這個發電量已經超過了現在的發電量6部燃氣機組這是你們的目標蓋6部燃氣機組"},{"start":10128.81,"end":10154.629,"text":"現有的燃煤機組過去承諾要拆掉那也的確要拆了4座你還會留6座燃煤機組給我部長昨天在總諮詢的時候我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉那回到問題啦如果電夠用的話第一個為什麼要蓋新的那如果蓋新的如果夠用而且還更多的舊的為什麼不能拆掉那個碳的問題啦啊碳的問題我知道啊我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嗎解決碳的問題啊"},{"start":10156.291,"end":10156.771,"text":"我們就看環評結果阿"},{"start":10185.814,"end":10186.614,"text":"報告委員現在的量不是在未來會一樣的"},{"start":10205.219,"end":10231.254,"text":"未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展繁榮用更多的電所以我就是要把這個燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大台中地區大家都能夠幸福快樂地用電所以我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去將來我們的綠電如果大家更支持的話我希望大家可以用電"},{"start":10234.275,"end":10241.641,"text":"主席 對不起 最後一句話 最後一段話而已現有的燃煤機組10部就550萬千瓦你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後再加上現的燃氣機組你是810萬千瓦"},{"start":10249.369,"end":10249.569,"text":"我們的目標是一樣的"},{"start":10273.803,"end":10274.624,"text":"請邱志偉委員質詢謝謝主席"},{"start":10304.796,"end":10326.732,"text":"葉主席這個 作為召委都很辛苦都要主持會議對我個人而言這個遵守發言的這個時間是我作為一個國會議員基本的素質如果連這個機關都摸得在乎誰這個恐怕很難對選民承諾"},{"start":10333.342,"end":10356.557,"text":"能夠具體來實現。所以我定6加2。好!好!先有請這個郭部長。請郭部長。姜文諾、姜署長。姜署長。然後我們游政委、游署長。游署長。委員好。昨天還沒問完的齁。部長。CPTPP我是這個立法院促進會的會長。那我長期希望"},{"start":10357.83,"end":10361.914,"text":"我們希望說這個能夠在去年加拿大明年是澳洲相對不是這個中國可以控制的國家所以我們最怕就是中國因素"},{"start":10381.428,"end":10405.663,"text":"現在有許多新的國家在加入是共識局我想請問一下江組長有沒有信心在明年澳洲當輪值主席的時候能夠有機會加入CPTPP您的評估呢?報告委員謝謝委員關心我們會盡各種努力來對於加入CPTPP是跟去年回答一樣"},{"start":10407.506,"end":10434.132,"text":"因為報告委員您也很清楚我們要加入CPTPP的話必須要符合這個奧克蘭原則也就是那個原則我也很清楚我只是說你作為一個主管機關你當然還要結合談判辦公室對不對還要結合各個外交的管束社會管束因為會議國很多你要共識覺得何其容易何其困難非常不容易的事情但是我知道你們很努力我想請你說"},{"start":10435.132,"end":10455.735,"text":"你評估明年加入的可能性高不高委員我們會盡最大的努力因為這個相關的這個入會工作小組的工作那你不能告訴我每年都要盡最大努力盡最大努力是基本的態度嘛但是我覺得你應該讓國會知道目前哪些國家的困難度比較高"},{"start":10457.547,"end":10484.506,"text":"哪些國家還有哪些問題需要克服的我們一起結合外交部結合經貿談判公司一起來會商來解決嘛你要跟部長報告目前的進度在哪裡所以一起努力繼續加油謝謝好謝謝江組長來游署長昨天還沒完江組長請回座那個游署長這個部分啊利樂啊"},{"start":10486.36,"end":10512.832,"text":"地流跟小水利發電都是再生能源對不對是但是你推動都會發生問題有一些的困難或者法令協調所以以至於我們有很好的這個地流發展的環境對不對但是卻沒有辦法去像其他國家土耳其啦或者印尼他能夠發電這個他的發電規模比雖然比我們晚開始但是他們建設的發電規模比我們快"},{"start":10513.888,"end":10542.435,"text":"就是國家在主導你出席的投入成本挖掘成本很高對不對所以這部分昨天有跟這個部長提過第6、8令有相關的限制包括土地問題、人民資產問題、懷民問題、經費的問題另外主導性的問題如果由政府主導它難度就降低對不對是這部分我希望說部長是不是折成一個推動小組啊部裡面要有推動小組設定目標你現在目標設定實在太保守"},{"start":10543.824,"end":10560.032,"text":"所以第6發電是為未來再生能源的重要的支柱之一現在是太陽能還有離岸風電為第6是很大的潛力但是我們沒有充分發揮我希望有揮動小組定期設定相關的HPI定期去追蹤"},{"start":10561.767,"end":10573.151,"text":"這個部長可以嗎?可以,我會向我們的這個綠能辦公室啊來要求他要有專人來專責來這個這個組織然後來督導這個這個台電總經理台電王總這個第6發電跟台電有沒有關係?我覺得王總經理非常稱職他也非常專業專業的問題我要請教他因為第6部分"},{"start":10591.311,"end":10595.773,"text":"您覺得未來台灣有沒有更大的發展空間?另外小水利發電也是很重要,部長"},{"start":10616.442,"end":10616.822,"text":"另外這個環境部省次長"},{"start":10648.018,"end":10669.135,"text":"新城市長部長委員好那個SRF目前啊這個當然SRF目前這個補助好像取消了嘛是補助取消了嘛你未來這些管制措施啊那你要怎麼去兼顧這個這個相關的這個去化的要求"},{"start":10670.089,"end":10677.975,"text":"所以這個部分你這個SRF的政策補助政策有調整那64萬噸可燃的廢氣物這個處理的問題你們有沒有方案"},{"start":10681.732,"end":10700.896,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10700.996,"end":10706.72,"text":"這產業反映一些亂象,這些亂象我想就提供給你看,製造端的違規現象,應用端的惡性循環,策略執行跟現實的落差,這些反映給你,你看怎麼去解決。"},{"start":10725.393,"end":10751.072,"text":"有把這些三大亂象提出一個具體解決方案如果時間限制是不是可以一個書面資料給我?可以,如果您簡單報告一下我們在今年的6月到9月之前進行了前面的總體檢那麼也提出了一些改進的措施那在年底之前會訂定一些辦法以及這個排放標準的加嚴那另外替代燃料排碳的減量方法這個目前還沒有公告嘛對不對?我們是以這一個"},{"start":10753.391,"end":10755.812,"text":"另外國發會要成立這個福島成立控股公司部長您覺得國發會的這個意見您覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":10784.198,"end":10788.043,"text":"我們現在主要就是因為要因應這個整個出口的這個市場"},{"start":10789.966,"end":10813.974,"text":"所以他要成立這個控股公司幫助我們整個產業鏈也就是說現在比較沒有競爭力的這個產業鏈可以透過這個供應鏈的關係就產業嘛對對用水五金啦是不是水五金國家隊的這個意思對我知道水五金、車用電子包括資訊服務另外工具機嘛是先來工具機開始是"},{"start":10815.976,"end":10823.727,"text":"國發會要輔導這些公司成立控股公司就是打國家隊那經濟部站在什麼角度去協助呢?我們站在就是幫他這個"},{"start":10825.469,"end":10826.39,"text":"國會議員不能遵守這個發言時間就是基本的素養不夠"},{"start":10855.902,"end":10856.182,"text":"請政廳財委員質詢"},{"start":10883.337,"end":10908.17,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。請郭部長。郭部長。好。這個本席再次的要請這個經濟部,尤其是水利署要依法行政。請賴署長。原則是基本法第20條規定,"},{"start":10909.881,"end":10935.679,"text":"政府承認原住民族土地的權利然後這個行政院合定的公有土地增編原住民保留地處理人者定得很清楚有下列情形之一者該土地不得增編為原住民保留地就是兩個條土地法14條但是呢土地法14條這個部分"},{"start":10937.909,"end":10962.997,"text":"經過工廠管理機關同意就可以水利法823條是不得私有水利法823條定的很清楚循常洪水位、行水區之土地不得移轉為私有我們絕對遵守這個法例土地法14條海岸一定限度內國產署的全部都同意真化變保留地"},{"start":10964.324,"end":10989.361,"text":"唯獨所謂的可通運之水道及其沿岸而事實上原住民現在所尤其一些個案都不是可通運之水道根本就沒有辦法通運內政部修正了這個土地法14條第一項各款規定不得私有之土地這裡面特別提到"},{"start":10991.909,"end":11019.117,"text":"只要工廠管理機關就可以同意就可以經濟部水利署106年也根據這個內政部的函式內政部的所修正的處理人者但是內政部水利署多了一些附調條件水利法83條你們說因為你們沒有公告沒有公告是你家的事情"},{"start":11020.956,"end":11041.584,"text":"是政府的事情啊部長是不是這樣你沒有公告然後你就要扣大這是不對的我們願意遵守啊所謂立法83條啊好第二段請各河川管理機關切一未來治理首席之範圍認定"},{"start":11045.242,"end":11070.775,"text":"很清楚未來治理首席之範圍我們先退一步到這邊並依原計法辦理好我們來看這個這是卑南西部長你看一下這個西很清楚我們的部落在最上方我們的部落這個十三部落我跟部長講非常"},{"start":11075.983,"end":11104.197,"text":"非常可悲可憐的部落為什麼呢?這個部落本來在哪裡呢?現在的治航機場本來在治航機場為了要蓋治航機場就搬到這裡這本來就是我們的土地啦就搬到這裡這麼漂亮的治航機場這麼好的地方提供給國家"},{"start":11106.318,"end":11135.331,"text":"為了國防搬到這邊我們自己的土地好 我們看這條北南溪堤防蓋了堤防在哪裡呢好 我來看一下這條道比較明顯的路 那是路吉林路在吉林路的下方那個白線的地方已經有堤防了"},{"start":11138.005,"end":11166.121,"text":"部長已經有提防了而且這個提防啊紀理這個溪啊紀理這條溪非常的遠非常非常的遠還有很多很多的農地在那邊我們沒有要求這個農地一定要這邊保留地沒有我們只是要求我們自己的祖先留下來的土地而且已經是在提防"},{"start":11167.758,"end":11193.736,"text":"提防跟部落之間的土地水利署很堅持而且不是未來治理首席提防就有了然後又用什麼呢我們要放消波塊消波塊放的地方已經過多了還要去增那麼一點點的土地"},{"start":11196.712,"end":11224.782,"text":"所以這個部分另外呢在瑞穗也是一樣瑞穗、北岡大橋堤防部長你看看右邊的堤防堤防都有了左邊的土地也弄了很多要蓋消波塊、放消波也放了竟然我們的土地"},{"start":11225.816,"end":11254.851,"text":"全部被劃為核酸7億線之內有提防喔!組長部長這個部分也沒有多少的土地這是祖先留下來的土地我們也要我們也願意你要做只能種只能種多少高我們都同意但是"},{"start":11256.513,"end":11265.37,"text":"土地所有錢要還給我們這是行政所核定的規定而且是原住民族基本法所規定的"},{"start":11270.657,"end":11288.934,"text":"委員你剛剛講的這個部分我們都會貫徹跟履行那至於你剛剛所提兩個個案我們也知道氣候變遷對於核道的這個治理的這個需求的部分我們不需要以核增地但我們也希望建立一個國土的韌性那完成治理"},{"start":11291.725,"end":11317.646,"text":"委員,我們台灣的河川平常沒有水喔,大雨來的時候,整個河川裡面都是水所以你現在看到北邊這個地方,有一些農耕的這個地方,在大雨來的時候,它可能是會...我完全不認同,我們的土地變成河流也沒有關係沒有關係啊,沒有關係啊,我們不會要求補償,也沒有規定要補償啊,不會"},{"start":11319.724,"end":11347.035,"text":"也沒有規定要賠償,不會?那個是因為有治理的所需要黃紅的需要的部分我們會依照這個水利法來做檢討至於你剛剛講兩個個案對於河川區域的所謂的勘定是不是可以再重新來做一個檢討這個回歸到專家的論證那我們在今年就已經開始啟動這個劃定的這個檢討作業你上次講說這個今年年底以前"},{"start":11348.175,"end":11359.97,"text":"還是11月底以前?你上次是有這樣講嗎?那為什麼要積極的現在讓鄉親怎麼又一直放消波塊?保護我們的土地又放消波塊?"},{"start":11364.487,"end":11384.993,"text":"委員,颱風這裡已經來了齁消波塊已經很多了我們需要相關的這個防洪設施啊災害的這個安全啊齁讓民眾在一個減災的社會可以安居樂業這是我們努力的這個目標自己看這個圖你放消波塊已經有提防了的"},{"start":11385.987,"end":11407.664,"text":"已經有提防了這個我們在全國各地都有一樣的一個做法你知道你在別的地方都放我們都贊成為什麼一定要在我們原住民已經在使用的土地裡面來放呢這個沒有針對性這是依照防救災的這個需求它是你們認定的"},{"start":11410.694,"end":11410.894,"text":"請賴樂雄委員質詢"},{"start":11439.952,"end":11440.955,"text":"謝謝主席,請郭部長"},{"start":11448.484,"end":11472.143,"text":"市長、委員好先請教黃仁勳說回台投資需要100億度的綠電他有講大概需要多長的時間嗎?報告委員是不是黃仁勳講的我不清楚但是這是一個假設命題但如果今天有一個廠商他需要100億度的綠電我們要知道說他在什麼時候需要這麼大的綠電"},{"start":11474.853,"end":11488.247,"text":"所以可能也需要部長再回答這個問題可能要先把那個時間點抓出來假如他需要在這1、2年內需要的話那當然是相當巨大的跟委員報告如果兩年後需要兩年後需要我們是做得到的"},{"start":11488.507,"end":11493.193,"text":"是我看整個綠電的狀況是整個綠電狀況在2022年其實已經有238億度的那到了2025年明年就已經有578億度當然很多都要"},{"start":11504.306,"end":11533.346,"text":"那到了2030年的925億度啦齁所以部長剛剛提到啦齁如果2026年需要的話2026年需要這個100億度的綠電是可以調度的出來的嗎?是的因為看來的話會超過600若是兩年後的話會超過600億度的綠電齁那需求量比較大的大概都這幾個比較大的國際廠商才有這樣的需求跟委員報告啦這個未來這個AI的使用齁使用到最大的極限的時候"},{"start":11534.346,"end":11559.425,"text":"大概會在2030年以後的事情是那根據這個客人的這個需求最大最大的RDC他可能需要1G的電所以各位可以看到在海外很多的這個國際知名的大廠他會用很多的這個電但我們在台灣來講我們希望因為他們要的是綠電"},{"start":11561.752,"end":11580.991,"text":"坦白講他們要的是綠電所以我現在在2030年之前我當然要把竭盡所能把綠電拉上來所以這個邀請部長這個大概接下來都是不管是半導體產業或者是一些AI的產業大概都需要大量電力需要綠電所以我想"},{"start":11581.451,"end":11597.98,"text":"也要加快速度我也看了一下報告去年的2023年的資料光你現有的再生能源就有268億度就是說其實我認為綠電的部分這幾年努力都有一定的成果那也期待這個經濟部的團隊持續加油這個綠電絕對是一個"},{"start":11600.862,"end":11600.882,"text":"有"},{"start":11628.673,"end":11653.271,"text":"封立的部分我在這邊跟委員報告封立的前面的這個現在我們談這個3之1、3之2跟未來的3之3我想就簡單的在這後面的部分大家都關心3之1那你現在這個國產化要把它取消的話不是啊你只要講一下政策上一定會怎麼樣來調整來下跨城的速度政策既定的政策不會變"},{"start":11654.445,"end":11655.866,"text":"光電的部分其實也遇到了爆發農電的部分"},{"start":11683.886,"end":11690.379,"text":"部長有跟農業部溝通過嗎?有,我們都在溝通那農電的部分呢?農電的部分我們會先從這個農漁"},{"start":11692.867,"end":11697.671,"text":"這個農業跟經濟的部分能夠取得一個好的一個平衡點那因為時間有限我接下來再問一下也是我很關切的大林普簽說問題"},{"start":11717.327,"end":11731.044,"text":"部長,從林泉院長去鞠躬道歉,代表政府道歉已經8年,那大林埔從蘇院長核定也5年了,什麼時候可以來進行相關的這個登記的作業?報告委員我是不是可以請這個院管局局長?"},{"start":11733.926,"end":11743.191,"text":"向委員報告,目前環評的部分已經跟環境部都取得共識,準備要做環評的公告說明。那等公告說明的部分進行的時候,我們就可以來研擬預登記的作業。"},{"start":11749.875,"end":11768.055,"text":"市長我先請教一下啦齁,過去曾經有一個慘痛的例子,國道7號的環評走了14年,光二階環評的範疇界定走了23次,走了10年,導致第7國會中心啟用的國企還沒有開始來動工,這樣的慘痛的教訓我希望在這個大臨部簽證計畫裡面能夠趕快,環評多久時間可以來做出最後的決定?"},{"start":11772.499,"end":11773.4,"text":"就按照環評的程序來進行"},{"start":11791.88,"end":11819.877,"text":"加快好嗎?加快速度不要再拖了好嗎?好那再回到那個經濟部這邊好不好那其他的作業程序我知道都需要時間部長我知道都需要時間但是已經我講了八年從道歉到現在已經八年了這個連甚至修善後到底要不要修颱風後要不要修善很多的都猶豫啦什麼時候可以開始進行這個登記的程序不要環評走完然後督記走完之後這可能都是兩三年假設環評假設最快一年一年半"},{"start":11820.397,"end":11843.137,"text":"那督記又在走那走完之後再來進行登記那恐怕這兩三年居民都必須在等待我們會來努力部長能夠趕在今年年底前的時候同步進行也就是說環評走環評的然後督記走督記的但是預登記的部分跟高雄市政府來溝通預先來做登記至少在區塊在要土地要"},{"start":11843.777,"end":11845.398,"text":"我們可以朝這個方向努力"},{"start":11874.075,"end":11888.201,"text":"我希望年底前能夠進行不要等到環評或者等到整個都計的程序走完這個恐怕都要一兩年以上的時間老百姓沒辦法等那麼久了年底前我希望能夠進行預登記的這樣程序"},{"start":11889.677,"end":11918.012,"text":"部長可以嗎?我們來領略接下來我請教一下這個設宅的部分也遇到了一些問題當時的時候我們希望對於有些部分需要安置的部分能夠給予設宅的一個處理但是內政部好像有一些不同意見他希望不要破壞掉原來內政部的設宅的一些規定那能不能請如果真的遇到困難能不能請經濟部就做一個專案的方式做一個專案的方式針對於"},{"start":11919.393,"end":11933.067,"text":"一般的6加3跟弱勢戶的12加3來做處理這個市長跟部長們在地方的會議上也都對鄉親說了能不能技術用專案的方式來再處理讓這個涉宰的案件能夠盡快來啟動"},{"start":11934.688,"end":11957.65,"text":"我們來協商看看努力看看好不好盡量有朝這個方向這個我還是要請部長要跟院長跟副院長要做個報告一下這個案子恐怕不能再拖了那我希望涉宅競速的定案之後然後讓整個這個整個程序能夠盡快的做啟動因為你涉宅一定要定案了之後老百姓才"},{"start":11958.15,"end":11958.33,"text":"請賴世保委員諮詢"},{"start":11989.762,"end":11993.853,"text":"謝謝主席及各位聲勁．有請經濟部的郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":12001.943,"end":12002.223,"text":"跟委員報告齁"},{"start":12032.383,"end":12052.57,"text":"我會很快的回答就第一個我非常清楚這件事情如果是真的那麼他要進來會用這麼多的綠電他光是要成立這樣的一個機構相信一定要兩年以上這是第一個假設"},{"start":12053.834,"end":12080.828,"text":"第二個根據我們現在綠電目前在進行的這個創電的這些案子我們非常清楚的到2026年我們會有550億度的綠電根據這兩個基本的狀況我很快的就可以回應他我記得感覺是你是這個企業"},{"start":12083.302,"end":12084.203,"text":"難道委員你認為這個會有問題嗎我這樣的假設會有問題嗎"},{"start":12098.932,"end":12125.405,"text":"你這個假設你要知道那其他的台積電怎麼辦呢你這個給他台積電也要其他也要還有其他台積電用多少電所有要用綠電的廠商我們都非常的清楚也都有聯絡所以台積電要多少的綠電台積電要多少的綠電台積電要用多少綠電台積電所用的電都是要綠電現在多少現在大概占我們的這個"},{"start":12129.394,"end":12132.935,"text":"現在綠電幾乎全部給台積電了,不是嗎?台積電最大客戶啊!現在,如委員所指教的,是沒有錯"},{"start":12146.038,"end":12169.124,"text":"大部分都是他他大概用我們的綠電現在七成以上七成以上啊有人講到九成呢七成是那個民間出去的部分其實台電手上還有一些綠電那個都還沒有出去啦那個量還有部長你昨天來這裡你提到一個數字我嚇一跳你說現在在這裡你也佔了16%這數字對不對啊"},{"start":12173.424,"end":12173.764,"text":"10月22日當天的分母是台電系統的供應量"},{"start":12203.936,"end":12207.793,"text":"但是當天的這個根據這個呢他的再生能源佔比是16%"},{"start":12209.312,"end":12235.463,"text":"如果大家在討論的9.5%那它的分母是全國供應量我想這個是分母跟分子之間的關係也就是時間...大家笑不要都說你現在正式免費的16%我是奇怪我從來沒有看過這個數字怎麼會變16%勒阿你也不澄清一下然後來請教那個命題不一樣我是不是請我能源署跟你報告一下不要不要不要這個我時間有限來部長"},{"start":12237.461,"end":12240.164,"text":"報告委員對於這個美國現在還在選舉在選舉的過程裡面我們"},{"start":12261.857,"end":12284.862,"text":"不會來評論這樣的一個沒有評論你昨天在這裡已經講了啊你說你不接受不同意啊你不是這樣講嗎你當然要表態啊你是說他對他說我們偷了對我說我們偷了他但我們當然不同意啊好那我就告訴你川普在美國講的時候全美國上億的人口在看他這個數字你講的時候包括卓榮泰院長"},{"start":12286.184,"end":12288.066,"text":"報告委員我們跟美國之間的關係是非常好我想這個你也非常清楚"},{"start":12310.546,"end":12335.501,"text":"在選舉的時候選舉的人所講的話我們在這個時候選舉還沒有結束之前我們不應該針對這個問題去給予這個下一些定論這個是我們的看法不過你們在這裡講的是對啊你應該要強調向美國人強調我們沒有偷你的未來如果有人在講未來如果有人我們要看那個影響是什麼"},{"start":12336.806,"end":12339.987,"text":"影響是什麼?如果影響到我們的市場的運作,那麼我們當然會出來這個努力啦齁,但是如果這只是一個,這若說笑齁,我也沒必要可以為了一個笑話,為了一個笑話。"},{"start":12356.154,"end":12361.399,"text":"我馬上再給我一點點時間我馬上講完了那我們看到今天的另外一個題目SRFSRF都很清楚的看得到"},{"start":12381.004,"end":12387.504,"text":"立方、可惠、可林惠、立江這三家公司他用發電廠的名利申請"},{"start":12389.394,"end":12408.725,"text":"他沒有進到環保園區環保園區可以不做環評結果這三家要做環評他沒有做環評結果你們我看整個報告SRF發展度發展看其他國家其他國家你要燒木材你這個燒有會產生大躍興的這個塑膠什麼對環保產生很大的影響就這個情況結果我們再看一下"},{"start":12417.735,"end":12438.105,"text":"結果,原來你都說不准,政府參議員說不准,後來呢,美國介入了,你們就推薦了。好了,我的重點在這裡,彰化縣,養寶實業後製桃園的牧師,也做SRF,也不經過環評。所以我就是問你一件事情,特別是環境部的掌櫃在這裡。"},{"start":12439.786,"end":12467.075,"text":"這些廠不管做什麼的SRF要不要做環評?要不要?跟委員報告桃園那三家廠是在桃科工裡面他本身有個總量環評是要符合進廠的標準沒有沒有他沒有進環保園區進環保園區才不需要做環評桃科工本身是有環評跟委員報告桃科工本身有一個總的環評所以只要進這個廠符合入園的標準長襪為什麼可以不做環評就要不要做環評?"},{"start":12468.547,"end":12486.919,"text":"我跟委員報告,SRF廠要不要做環評,要依照它的區位規模來判定,都要符合。那需要環評的就一定要環評,免環評就不用環評,但是環保相關法規都必須要遵守。那郭副長,我就是再問你一次,有關於SRF這個的一個申請,你們現在變成是鼓勵喔?"},{"start":12493.615,"end":12503.984,"text":"我們這個SRF是這個國際的一個趨勢我們沒有什麼鼓勵所以一定要通過這個環境部的這個要求我們根據這個法令的這個規範來進行我就是跟你強調他們要做這些東西對環境可能產生很大影響的SRF要做環評OK就這個我的要求是謝謝"},{"start":12527.932,"end":12544.461,"text":"我們中午不休息,延長開會時間。請舒巧惠委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請郭部長。請郭部長。"},{"start":12554.437,"end":12580.325,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想您看到我的投影片的標題轉肺為能步步前進SRF不該被汙名化我想我今天就用我短短的幾分鐘來跟您討論SRF的這個部分那我想再請您在備詢台上再次的說明經濟部對SRF的態度到底是什麼是肯定還是否定那它的定位是什麼可不可以解答"},{"start":12583.69,"end":12594.887,"text":"經濟部肯定還是否定我們當然是他是一個趨勢啦所以我們對SRF是這樣的一個他是要符合環境部的需求環境部的檢驗"},{"start":12596.411,"end":12614.89,"text":"他通過了我們當然是肯定的因為他是減碳的一部分是啊所以其實這就是一個新的技術這個新的技術可以達到的是我們在產生能源的時候是一個減碳的能源是一個多元創造能源的方式同時還可以去化廢棄物"},{"start":12615.791,"end":12643.678,"text":"所以理論上這個新技術當然是好的啊但是這個新技術當然也有它的過程過程當中如果有產生問題的我們就應該加強管理嘛這是兩個層次的問題很清楚本席在討論SRF的部分是因為上一屆我就是在未還委員會我因為新北的廢棄物問題非常非常的嚴重所以有幸在未還委員會看到了環境部能夠"},{"start":12644.998,"end":12662.008,"text":"根據國際潮流我們台灣開始引進這樣子的新技術好那可是我們很遺憾看到這段時間以來不但是地方政府對SRF的這個電廠沒有協助之餘甚至是直接跳到就是撤銷執照完全不討論中間的癥結問題甚至是部長"},{"start":12667.031,"end":12687.266,"text":"您剛剛說肯定可是我要看到你上一週喔上一週經濟部正式預告了再生能源發展條例部分條文的修正草案其實也把這個SRF納入獎勵的範圍這個部分給拿掉了那兩件事情加在一起難道你剛剛說的肯定"},{"start":12688.524,"end":12710.704,"text":"是是是怎麼樣是事實上你態度肯定但是實際作為既沒有協助也又把這個獎勵部分拿掉難道你其實實際作為是否定嗎他是轉換到另外一個獎勵條例去轉換有轉換嗎有同時轉換到嗎這就是我今天要跟您討論的部分不然因為我時間有限所以我想跟您確認一下在這裡"},{"start":12711.765,"end":12720.374,"text":"國內的SRF仍有爭議最大的原因其實就是這兩個嘛一個是法規未完備另外一個是規範未落實這是兩個層次嘛對不對其實法規的部分環境部我相信已經開始在討論了那我們來看一下現在的狀況第一個是現在的狀況是書面審查沒有實地會刊"},{"start":12732.546,"end":12752.018,"text":"所以不需要業者很多啊好再來第二個業者現有業者的技術設備不足所以他的垃圾沒有經過合格的分選問題是在這裡啊不是SRF的技術不好是這個技術燃燒的東西裡面你沒有把它經過合格的分選嘛然後第三"},{"start":12752.398,"end":12752.498,"text":"第二．"},{"start":12776.141,"end":12787.627,"text":"我們要設立第三方單位負責SRF的品質控管及認證工作第三規範SRF的業者應該要具備空氣污染防治的設備且戴奧星的標準要比照焚化爐以真正達成Buffet轉能這樣的部分"},{"start":12796.111,"end":12817.323,"text":"這是我剛剛說的第一個法規制定以及要落實法規的部分不曉得今天是部長在這裡後面環境部次長也在這裡嘛那你對於這我提出的三個建議不曉得您認為態度如何跟委員報告我的態度就是把委員所指教的這部分帶回去趕快研究"},{"start":12818.303,"end":12823.61,"text":"然後跟這個環境部我們充分的討論其實這個部分應該是環境部不然次長這邊我覺得這三項是非常實際的狀況這直接應該要成為法規其實就解套了一大半我們在今年6月到9月已經完成了全面的體檢"},{"start":12836.427,"end":12856.852,"text":"所以會有一部新的法規來把這三項全部都納入是嗎?年底會有管理辦法,正適用辦法是,已經在公告預告當中了那我們的那個排放標準也加嚴檢測頻率也提升所以SRF的管理方式要加嚴嗎?這才是第一層次的速度嗎?那是對於運作中的所有SRF廠"},{"start":12857.532,"end":12879.792,"text":"是委員您剛提到桃園那三家是未來要興建的那當然也要符合我們現在所有的標準那當然啊因為它還沒有設置起來嘛所以當然我們的法規如果跑快一點它當然要依照新法規嘛所以這是我認為第一個環境部標準應該要設立的部分但是第二個那個郭部長我還是在跟您您剛剛提到了我想藉著時間還是請您把剛剛這個說清楚我認為"},{"start":12883.115,"end":12901.648,"text":"即便你要把他從SRF從再生能源發展條例的獎勵辦法中拿走可是這是一個好的做法我們還是要鼓勵這個新技術來所以部長其他的獎勵辦法是什麼請您說明拿掉的部分是非綠的部分就是我們讓他走這個7天共生的獎勵"},{"start":12904.064,"end":12918.264,"text":"所以還是有相關的鼓勵這個轉廢為能的這個部分嘛對不對是的好那最後我也是提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下您的這個預告版本裡面第一條其實你在定義什麼是再生能源的時候"},{"start":12919.365,"end":12937.245,"text":"還是有把燃燒廢棄物的部分是放在定義裡面但是又增加了第11項這個燃燒這個SRF的這個器具又不算是電氣發展設備這兩個部分似乎看起來是有矛盾的部分啦也請那個能源局這邊可以再看一下是是謝謝委員指教好謝謝部長"},{"start":12946.445,"end":12965.763,"text":"好,我們接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在場。好,我們接下來請李毅林委員、李釗緯執行。謝謝主席。請郭部長。請部長、郭部長。"},{"start":12973.868,"end":13000.937,"text":"委員好部長因應我們全球的供應鏈的改組跟國際局勢的變動所以我們鼓勵著臺商能夠回流到臺灣來加強投資所以我們的政府也在2019年他用三大的投資方案來吸引臺商來回臺投資還有跟流臺灣最重要的還要再讓我們中小企業能夠加速投資在這個三大方案裡面現在已經"},{"start":13002.137,"end":13012.069,"text":"電掉了沒有?因為我看到你們又在延長到2027年是的,我們有延長那你延長有沒有做修正的調整?這個計畫還沒出來嗎?我們按照原來的這個計畫繼續再實施原來的計畫,但是你們現在"},{"start":13022.165,"end":13022.285,"text":"是的"},{"start":13052.438,"end":13053.238,"text":"目前來看我們的計畫來看是不會"},{"start":13078.834,"end":13091.401,"text":"因為部長本席會這麼問就是因為到現在我們合訂的1559家的投資案到現在年底還有632件還沒有完成投資這些你都有沒有協助我們現在這個所有的這個投資都有主案在進行你完成了只有927件還有632件沒有完成這些沒有完成你還要再擴大"},{"start":13108.615,"end":13116,"text":"那你怎麼協助他們呢?投資師沒有來投資呢?我是不是請他來跟你報告一下?"},{"start":13119.562,"end":13148.29,"text":"跟委員報告那這個到去年年底的話事實上是我們95%都有按計畫完成但是因為是有一部分是因為那個疫情的關係還有我們缺工缺料啦引物料大漲這些問題還有沒有別的問題就講是那個還有一部分是因為所以本期要提醒你們就是說核定了這麼多你還完成了927未完成還有632這些你們都要了解原因有什麼困難需要協助的你們要去協助好不好"},{"start":13148.77,"end":13172.15,"text":"那再來就是企業投資的話最重要還有水電的問題嘛他廠房的設計的問題嘛這些也都是問題所以在水電的問題上我們看到我們2030年我們台電也特別講到說我們的綠電啊要發電量要到30%對不對那但是我看到你們下修的資料要到24.7%是不是這樣子台電部長你知道嗎他們已經下修了"},{"start":13178.923,"end":13194.374,"text":"您說我們的綠電下修對說2030年要完成的部分應該沒有吧24.74你們給我的數字我是不是請台電來拿能源數一下"},{"start":13195.652,"end":13195.772,"text":"邀請經濟部部長"},{"start":13212.729,"end":13232.707,"text":"我們的綠電不可能要做基載的能源對不對那現在太陽能的發電就變成是個主力了綠電的主力了它能占有這個再生能源是48%你認為在我們天氣、氣候不佳的情況之下像這颱風到11月還是這個情形的話那我們的發電量會減少那綠電的話你認為2030年就會達成嗎因為有受氣候的影響啊"},{"start":13240.17,"end":13263.807,"text":"這個本來就是在考慮的因素之內啦就是說它之所以不能夠作為基載有它的限制在所以太陽能的所以就必須要調整嘛現在目前就是太陽能啊對啊 報告委員我們這些都是滾動式的這個在調整就是說我們還是與時俱進所以那個是我們的目標但是實際上我們一定要"},{"start":13265.348,"end":13282.795,"text":"基於實際的狀況我們來努力我們希望你們都能打出來也不是部長說的16%我現在早上大家都在問你這個16%的問題這個是當天你有16%但是每個委員問你就是你平均值是打多少目前都是8到10而已啦"},{"start":13283.055,"end":13293.217,"text":"了不起到12%而已所以我們希望2030年你們的目標30%你們就要達成那現在我們最關心的就是臺電因為降低這個停電的事故也在2022、2023年要強韌電網跟我們的配電升級的計畫都在努力在做但是我們看到你們這個供電穩定事故的計畫裡面2021年到2022年到2023年你看到"},{"start":13313.163,"end":13335.837,"text":"臺電你的歸咎你的責任部分是最高的2021年的話你的責任是40.9%你的2022年是422023年是又再提高到46.5%這都是你的責任你說強振電網在做配電升級也在做為什麼你們的臺電發生的這個這個責任歸屬的地方還是一直在提高呢"},{"start":13336.767,"end":13339.09,"text":"已經每年都在做了,要減少你們台電發生問題啊?"},{"start":13355.871,"end":13374.264,"text":"對你們責任一直在提高是都是因為你們的責任才發生在停電的問題這個就是因為隨著時間所以那個設備每一年都會增加這個老的這個狀態每一年都在開放應該不好了這個發生在停電問題會減少啊是我們給你的計畫是10年計畫強振電網跟配電的提升"},{"start":13379.091,"end":13379.492,"text":"報告委員報告委員"},{"start":13401.613,"end":13401.813,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":13424.206,"end":13444.578,"text":"桃園已經有5家在做SRF的這個發電現在又核准了這3家剛剛我們省次長也提到說在整個工業區的總量的環評的空屋的部分他是可以不用做環評但是你不要忘了空屋的問題"},{"start":13447.267,"end":13463.327,"text":"的問題是隨著風向一直在飄離開他的園區的所以你怎麼去測試那本席要告訴你就是桃園市政府已經撤銷了他們入園許可現在第二次撤銷我們也希望部長你把"},{"start":13463.948,"end":13487.27,"text":"民眾的聲音聽進去不要強行讓他們入園因為我們希望的話就是我們環境部跟我們經濟部一定要了解你們重演的條件跟規範目前來講的話這個SRF它的來源有製造廠跟空污規範的這個要做一個"},{"start":13488.231,"end":13497.581,"text":"通盤的整理的規劃裡面尤其是我們目前的鍋爐空污空氣污染的這個物的這個排放照"},{"start":13498.476,"end":13517.195,"text":"目前來講有兩種就是力壯的空污物歐盟的標準每立方公尺是10毫克環境部的話目前的標準每立方公尺是30毫克如果說是氮氧化物歐盟的標準是73ppm環境部的標準是100ppm"},{"start":13518.876,"end":13541.937,"text":"這就是環境部放鬆的地方所以請你們要比照歐盟國家一定要重演你的重演標準年底要出來但是本席再次提醒目前你的標準是這樣子對於這鍋爐空氣污染物的這個排放的標準現在在這邊所以現在請你照我們環境部"},{"start":13542.858,"end":13543.138,"text":"所以我們請"},{"start":13557.125,"end":13557.145,"text":"國務院議員"},{"start":13587.485,"end":13588.245,"text":"接下來請黃國昌總召來發言"},{"start":13621.086,"end":13648.906,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請部長還有台堂的總經理請總經理委員好兩位好部長延續上一次資訊的主題針對有關於我們在再生能源的發展上我們是大力支持"},{"start":13650.017,"end":13652.19,"text":"但有個重點我們的政府"},{"start":13653.53,"end":13682.115,"text":"不能只會淪為喊口號要實際的藉機理局的去做啦!2025年20%已經確定跳票了你們陸陸續續又把發展的路徑給呈現出來了上一次質詢部長的時候請教部長的是發展的路徑那部長說不是線性關係也不是函數關係跟裝置容量是有關係的上次您答的是這樣那我請您把你們評估的基礎資料"},{"start":13685.207,"end":13707.613,"text":"當時的主席也是我們今天的呂昭偉說一個禮拜之內要答覆我到目前還沒收到還要拖多久?還要拖多久?你只要給我一個時間我後面還有其他的主題因為我覺得很遺憾我們在委員會質詢要的資料昭偉也裁釋了經濟部不給就不給"},{"start":13710.963,"end":13734.208,"text":"我需要利用質詢的時間苦苦哀求嗎?請你們提供基礎資料有這麼困難嗎?只是我們這一兩個禮拜你也非常清楚我們有很多的事情在準備那沒有關係啊你有困難就跟趙偉講不要才是一個禮拜啊趙偉的才是假的嗎?還需要多久?還需要多久?"},{"start":13737.97,"end":13765.049,"text":"只要給我一個時間不要浪費質詢時間在講這種我要利用質詢的時間來要資料還需要多久我們會部內裡面馬上討論這個問題再一個禮拜好我不好好可以好下個問題齁我基本上齁要問的事情是說在你們目前的評估當中有一個非常重要的政策議題農電共生還要不要再做要"},{"start":13765.785,"end":13789.042,"text":"要再做嘛我跟部長回顧一下可能你從企業界來啊之前這個臭不可聞的農電共生到底發生什麼事情啊可能你不是很清楚來看一下這個是2018年的時候在我們的行政院一樓內廂會議室舉行的會議當時是由張景生政委所主持找來一堆"},{"start":13790.463,"end":13811.243,"text":"綠能的業者其中有一個其中有一個他的兄弟是潘孟安的愛將叫做呂正燕目前這位先生他已經逃跑了他因為掏空案現在被通緝了這個是法務部調查局的通緝系統人已經跑了人已經跑了"},{"start":13812.216,"end":13837.105,"text":"那找了一堆不肖的業者到我們的行政院開這種農電共生的會議在討論什麼事我再繼續代部長看要求什麼臺塘市出750公頃的農地安排廠商跟潘孟安見面我先請教一個問題目前我們農電共生的政策還會不會要求臺塘市出農地"},{"start":13841.553,"end":13849.77,"text":"我們在政策上面我想是持續的啦如果說會還是不會會嘛我現在要了解一下你現在來請一下台堂總經理"},{"start":13852.393,"end":13872.321,"text":"當初這一段因為我知道你是去年才升總經理的嘛是是是當初這一段你有沒有參與報委我沒有參與你沒有參與嗎跟委員報告我們目前也沒有接到任何說要我們釋出農地然後要做農電共生的這個指示到目前為止沒有嗎是是是我要拜託台堂喔是"},{"start":13874.666,"end":13894.946,"text":"紮產、光電、配合國家政策我基本上是不反對但不能胡搞瞎搞連台塘重要的林地都跑去做規劃當初2018年在開始這樣胡搞瞎搞的時候要求台塘兩個月內要提出銀龍型專區計畫書這個都有會議記錄"},{"start":13899.008,"end":13924.404,"text":"全部都是行政院的高官帶著廠商在行政院開黑箱會議建於我們台堂的土地到目前為止你沒有介紹這樣的指示是嗎?是那跟委員報告就是說之前的這個銀龍型專區的這個計畫我們已經停止推動目前已經停止為什麼停止推動?因為我們就是據我了解就是說之前有在"},{"start":13925.1,"end":13936.729,"text":"地方召開說明會那因為地方的一個民意沒有支持所以我們就沒有再推動臺龐喔是守住立場是是好來再繼續請部長延續著啦從行政院開始找一些阿薩布魯的廠商來開命令會議接下來再看齁這個飯局我問過狗明星他承認了"},{"start":13954.105,"end":13972.771,"text":"紅船線聯合再生我們的國發基金跟我們的耀華玻璃投了30億下去前面投資錢虧損了100多億大家都在問國發基金我們國發基金什麼時候變成紓困基金結果他說這個是綠能國家對未來會賺錢結果我們國發基金投進去以後現在又虧了100多億"},{"start":13981.673,"end":14010.111,"text":"但這不關經濟部的事情關經濟部的是什麼事情胡搞瞎搞經濟部張斌工業區地給了聯合再生結果他搞什麼事情啊綠能國家隊馬上違約出售套利2.63億這件事情我從去年開始追結果呢我追的時候我說什麼"},{"start":14011.512,"end":14032.117,"text":"說聯合再生用特別股創造虛偽的假象說他沒有移轉結果經濟部這也跟你沒關係前一任部長發新聞稿罵我說他否認啦寫新聞稿幫聯合再生護航遮醜來我們繼續往下看今年夏天我們的監察院終於醒來了"},{"start":14033.21,"end":14053.1,"text":"監察院糾正的內容啊就是我去年下就是我去年開始揭發的內容我一路追追到今年夏天監察院終於說我講的沒有錯那現在關鍵來了聯合再生這樣胡搞瞎搞經濟部、昌濱工業區的地要不要收回來"},{"start":14056.224,"end":14072.067,"text":"報告委員,我經濟部的態度就是依法處理了。對啊!現在檢察院都糾正啊!違約事實明確啊!那依法處理地要回來啊!法上,法律如果規定地要回來,我們就會把地要回來。"},{"start":14073.356,"end":14074.457,"text":"需要多久回覆?"},{"start":14095.407,"end":14119.261,"text":"不要再寫齁幫忙遮醜包庇的新聞稿啦我看不下去啦要不要終止租約基金部的立場是什麼一個禮拜之內書面回覆可以嗎我們要一個月要一個月好我給你一個月的時間這件事情知事提到這種不孝的躺倉政府該有的作為拿出魄力來好謝謝"},{"start":14126.977,"end":14144.499,"text":"我們請工作同仁發便當給大家吃因為我們中午不休息了請羅志強委員質詢主席有請部長請郭部長"},{"start":14154.147,"end":14177.824,"text":"委員好部長好請問你去過桃園的觀音區嗎?沒有當然也不可能直接跟桃園的觀音區的民眾有實際的交流嗎?業務上都沒有都沒有了我事實上我在桃園觀音區的馬路邊睡了兩天睡了兩個晚上你知道為什麼嗎?"},{"start":14179.431,"end":14202.324,"text":"不清楚因為那時候我們的民進黨政府答應觀音人說藻礁要永存結果後來睡了兩天也沒用我是陪著觀音的民眾想要來守護藻礁最後一樣照樣開發了那另外我也去了觀音好幾趟"},{"start":14203.39,"end":14227.217,"text":"那再次去觀音我想部長就猜得到就跟今天的主題有關是什麼原因去觀音猜得到吧就是SRF的設廠你知道觀音人的態度是什麼嗎你知道嗎因為我沒有觀音人的朋友所以我不太清楚我告訴你觀音的朋友覺得真的很悲情"},{"start":14228.696,"end":14248.284,"text":"實際上以過去的選舉分析來講在觀音區其實向來民進黨的得票都非常的高可是觀音的人現在是很不能理解為什麼今天珍貴的藻礁那要觀音人珍視的藻礁被破壞"},{"start":14249.403,"end":14266.838,"text":"然後呢現在又把三家SRF的這個發電廠要放到觀音去其實觀音的人很不能理解我聽了很多觀音的朋友因為我實際到觀音去了很多次那我這個心聲顯然我覺得我們政府沒有聽進去但沒關係"},{"start":14269.218,"end":14280.27,"text":"事實上桃園有這三家SRF的廠商進駐那桃園市政府其實跟地方居民多次向經濟部表達反對"},{"start":14283.14,"end":14310.873,"text":"我記得在總質詢的時候那時候部長您曾經說了一段話說這個主導權跟決定權在桃園市政府部長你還認為主導權跟決定權在桃園市政府嗎是的還是喔當然那實質上桃園市政府已經兩次撤銷三家廠商的那個路源許可我直接說啦這不就是標準的兩手策略嗎"},{"start":14312.434,"end":14328.91,"text":"經濟部一方面說尊重地方主管機關的決定．結果也要尊重溯源會的決定．而溯源結果推翻了桃園市政府的決定．我想請問部長．你到現在還真的認為SRF設不設．是桃園市政府說的算嗎?"},{"start":14331.784,"end":14357.503,"text":"這個規定就是這個樣子阿規定阿實際上他們說他們不設欸今天舉個例子齁我今天就中午想吃排骨飯對不對然後呢最後呢你今天一個手抓過來把排骨抓走就放一個空落在裡面然後你跟我講說你可以決定吃排骨飯阿蘇院會不就這樣阿他駁了今天桃園市政府的阿報告委員蘇院會不是經濟部"},{"start":14358.939,"end":14374.917,"text":"我要講的是溯源會駁但是你卻說主導權在桃園市政府我不是說溯源會是經濟部我說是溯源會駁掉這個事桃園市政府還如你邏輯上所說的能夠主導跟決定這件事嗎那就是"},{"start":14376.721,"end":14379.665,"text":"當初SRF之所以能設廠你知道最關鍵的文件是什麼鄭總不會不知道吧"},{"start":14394.454,"end":14408.112,"text":"最關鍵的文件經濟部的推薦函是沒有法律的經濟部在這邊不負責任到說我的推薦函沒有法律效益那你發什麼推薦函?那你發什麼推薦函阿?"},{"start":14411.803,"end":14430.755,"text":"你多此一舉嘛那不一定啊推薦函來來來部長部長今天齁今天有個廠商一個詐欺集團他跟你講說叫你要發推薦函你可不可以說發了推薦函跟你沒關係你可以跟我講發了推薦函跟你沒關係嗎"},{"start":14432.895,"end":14456.138,"text":"推薦函跟推薦的單位當然是有關係嘛謝謝你啊有關係啊這個上面沒有法律的這個依據嘛今天你用中央政府壓地方政府現在事後推沒有法律沒關係我跟你講這一點觀音區的民眾已經可以公判了你從人民的角度當初看的就是經濟部的推薦函你現在跟我講推薦函沒有效率就是所謂的誤會一場"},{"start":14457.739,"end":14481.239,"text":"你這個說法你能夠說服觀音區的民眾的話那我告訴你我正義建議部長啦你就去那邊睡個兩個晚上你看看觀音的人會不會接受你這個說法我可以了解但是委員SRF的發電廠反正你發推薦函你推薦函沒有法律效力發推薦函不關你的事就這麼簡單我非常的尊敬你"},{"start":14481.499,"end":14499.829,"text":"SRF我不需要您的尊敬我只需要您去心衡觀音區的民眾我必須要依法行事嘛法、理、情你講的都非常有道理來請問你經濟部發推薦還是根據哪一個法律法律的規定你可以發推薦函的經濟部根據哪一個法律發推薦函的政策表述推薦嘛哪一個法律啊講給我聽啊法律名稱"},{"start":14507.881,"end":14520.523,"text":"我們不是依哪一個法律嗎?謝謝你口口聲聲依法行政連發推薦還法律就說不出來我告訴你依今天經濟部高興行政啦謝謝你啦謝謝你部長你可能不知道經濟部有開專案會議有開專案會議這個是官方的專案會議並不是只有推薦案好謝謝"},{"start":14539.328,"end":14563.492,"text":"請蔡議委員質詢。謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部部長。請郭部長。跟台電董事長。請曾董事長。委員好。部長好。"},{"start":14564.788,"end":14586.598,"text":"部長我昨天事實上在這個院會的時候我有質詢過這個針對現在台電的一個虧損的狀態那我們當然是期待特別預算可以獲得那朝野的共識一起來來審這個特別預算然後給台電可以有這樣的一個裁員的一個挹注但相對的如果"},{"start":14588.288,"end":14590.509,"text":"我們大概這樣子啦,就是就一個企業來講的話"},{"start":14614.144,"end":14641.092,"text":"那他就是應該要將本不要說求利啦因為這個是國營的事業就是不虧錢來經營這個公司啊應該是這個努力的方向那我們在沒有收到這個兩千億來彌補我現在財務上面的問題的話我們要想辦法這個從就像昨天委員所指導的也許"},{"start":14641.832,"end":14670.327,"text":"我們可以從利息上面去調整可以借到更便宜的利息第二個可能就是我們台電的同仁這個薪水稍微大家努力一下我看是比較不要這樣啦中金的部分可以稍微降一下但是這個又不是我們願意的嘛這個動到台電同仁的福利我覺得不好我的意思就是說一般企業經營大概都是會這樣"},{"start":14671.127,"end":14681.419,"text":"但是我們國營不會這樣我們不會去動到員工的這個薪酬所以部長所以部長我想如果真的出現了說這個2000億沒辦法被預注的時候"},{"start":14684.52,"end":14701.945,"text":"也許就得思考其他方案,那這其他方案可以再來研究啦。但是我要講的就是說,因為台電公司我早就講,它是扮演著物價的防波堤。那物價的防波堤一定都動在一雙。"},{"start":14703.846,"end":14720.668,"text":"過去解釋因為都擋在第一線所以如果遇到產業的寒冬的時候台電負擔這個電價的損失如果遇到物價要上漲的時候我們民生用電的部分動漲然後也是穩住物價的一環所以台電公司扮演的角色很重要"},{"start":14721.149,"end":14741.984,"text":"那未來以部長你的規劃．你想像中未來．很多責任不應該再完全讓臺電去扛在第一線．所以部長你這個說法起來．是不是很多時候變得說我們中央政府．定義的行政院我們自己整體都要扛在第一線的是,我們會請其他的單位來幫忙．"},{"start":14745.267,"end":14760.5,"text":"讓這個來協助啦就大家一起來協助嘛就是說過去有可能一些對農漁業、對於弱食團體、社福團體的補助那這部分由他們自己來編列預算那台電就少了這部分的一個支出這對台電來說也是一個減少負擔那我現在再講一個啦這個跟產業有關因為我們這一次為了漲電價漲了這個12.5%"},{"start":14770.709,"end":14785.854,"text":"那我們為了要考慮到產業消退的一個狀態所以我們用113年上半年度用電衰退他的產業有衰退15%作為一個基準點15%以上的我們就減半15%位級15%的調幅"},{"start":14791.656,"end":14804.383,"text":"有所謂的一個摔退15%以上的就凍漲那如果在這個5%跟15%之間那就是減半但是部長我後來接受到了好多產業跟我反應"},{"start":14806.104,"end":14814.747,"text":"他說你用113年用電衰退然後他的產業的銷售額衰退我們都只用113年這樣產生一個問題喔問題就是說有一些產業比方我上次質詢的時候的鋼鐵業"},{"start":14821.534,"end":14837.959,"text":"鋼鐵最傳統的反甩它是從大概在烏二戰爭的時候差不多在兩年前它就衰退了所以它就已經盪到了谷底所以它到了113年上半年度的時候它根本沒有辦法用它的谷底啊"},{"start":14839.499,"end":14865.23,"text":"他就是這麼慘了他也不可能再慘個15%給你看啊所以相對起來你說他是一個他是用電他算是大戶所以用電是他很大的成本可是他產業衰退是在兩年前從戰爭的時候就已經衰退到谷體了所以看起來我們這樣的一個制度勒沒有辦法充實反應現在很多傳統產業他們因為用電然後成本上升他們所面對的壓力"},{"start":14866.591,"end":14892.172,"text":"我剛講的是鋼鐵業還有像螺絲重金屬業他也都是面對這樣的事謝謝委員這個因為這個電價定價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者在那可能當初在這個定這個價的時候這部分沒有被提出來作為他們的參考我想這個我們每一年會有兩次這個調整電價的這個時間"},{"start":14895.635,"end":14911.241,"text":"那電價當然不一定說只往上調啦也有可能往下調作為 我想您的這個指教我們會在12月份的時候我們有電價有一個諮詢的委員會我把這一題交給這個電價諮詢委員會"},{"start":14913.902,"end":14940.228,"text":"他們來參考因為很多產業事實上他的狀況對所以以前就不能夠說以這麼短的時間來做評估我們用這麼短時間來論定的話基本上會有一個相對的一個剝奪感是是謝謝委員這是第一個那第二個就是說那如果台電公司因為面對著這樣衰退然後這個電價緩就是暫緩動漲或是減半的話我看也是台電要負擔啊是這樣嗎"},{"start":14943.323,"end":14965.126,"text":"這也是台電的負擔嘛是是是所以我這樣說起來我也覺得我就自我矛盾啦我一方面我又在希望解決台電的問題一方面我又希望這事實上很多產業他是需要需要這個用電的一個照顧因為他真的是沒有成長所以我自己我也知道說我在這一題的論述會矛盾所以我還是回到了這部分"},{"start":14965.606,"end":14965.646,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":14983.707,"end":15010.704,"text":"我認為這個台電的問題應該是第一兩件事情就是說不是補助或不補助而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低第二個台電的這個經營效率要能夠提升那從這個本身的體質來改造那麼我不希望台電的電價是"},{"start":15013.943,"end":15016.486,"text":"會在長的我認為我們希望這個因為大家用"},{"start":15019.398,"end":15021.859,"text":"部長這個是一直要這樣做一直要保持但是我們現在要解決的是"},{"start":15047.889,"end":15073.602,"text":"過去兩年的那個成本的提高嘛所以造成大幅的虧損嘛所以我們現在短期內是遇到這個壓力我們希望說能夠改善我們財務上面的問題這改善不只啊不只現在應該持續都是要做好改善的啊沒有錯啊好那第二個我再我只要一分鐘的時間就好我想跟部長再就教一下現在我們好多產業啦事實上真的都是被"},{"start":15074.602,"end":15091.505,"text":"中國資金所侵略尤其是在我們看不到的一些產業我就覺得事實上有兩個很有名的吳宗憲這個演藝界的吳宗憲他投資LED被整個被中國的廉價的LED打趴了"},{"start":15092.486,"end":15116.196,"text":"我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會他在說整個陸資都頓入新加坡或者是頓入香港把台灣的維木牆幾乎都是維木牆就是說我們的這個我們的基礎外面那個它外面那個暫時包起來的那個全部都被陸資都是被中國貨整個壟斷了"},{"start":15119.02,"end":15127.086,"text":"這件事情你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員他都有跳出來了那我們經濟部有正視這個維木牆被入資壟斷的狀況嗎?我們只要有業者反應我們都會列入檢討"},{"start":15134.034,"end":15149.892,"text":"最近業者是已經有反應了他們的一個工會事實上都在反應已經被入資已經工程略遞到了連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標雙子星建設他也都是用入資的為牆"},{"start":15153.456,"end":15175.426,"text":"回覆以後會來了解對,連我們未來台灣的指標的一個建案他幾乎都已經都被中國的已經攻城越地了那他們的入資的審核是否有足以嚴格有足以說排除說他們事實上都是假現在都是假借新加坡最多嘛那我們認為說這部分欸"},{"start":15177.947,"end":15202.41,"text":"中國呢?他就是有他的競爭,他的競爭用價格優勢在攻擊你啊。那我們台灣當然這部分我們要做好自己的自我防護。我們經濟部站在第一線當然要幫他審查好啊。是,謝謝,謝謝委員。好不好?我們會建立這個基準齁,來嚴審。然後您剛才所指證的那個案子我們已經退掉了。有退掉了?是。好,那我了解齁。好,那再繼續再保持啦。是。好,謝謝。謝謝委員。"},{"start":15211.298,"end":15223.492,"text":"請王育民委員質詢。謝謝主席。我們有請部長。請郭部長。"},{"start":15231.701,"end":15257.012,"text":"委員好部長好部長上一次本席在這邊指詢有關與嘉義縣大埔光電的這個爭議這些鄉親非常的辛苦套柵撒電搭著遊覽車來到行政院下跪陳情從我指詢卓榮泰院長10月8號到現在已經超過三個禮拜了但是那個協調會到現在都沒有開"},{"start":15257.992,"end":15278.202,"text":"想請問部長這個嘉義的大埔鄉親苦苦的等待而且到行政院下跪陳情這個光電案的爭議要怎麼解決?這個因為他這個案子是比較小的案子是由這個縣政府在核准的案子你們當時說你們要督導阿那現在都還沒有開協調會阿請問你們要打算怎麼處理?我們的這個縣府說11月初會來開協調會"},{"start":15288.552,"end":15305.624,"text":"11月初這個協調會一定要開因為這些年邁的鄉親他們都在等第二個我要問的是這個案子其實最大的爭議就是它是在都市計畫區內的地面型光電它雖然是一個小鄉村但那邊是住宅區"},{"start":15306.665,"end":15321.272,"text":"結果他在幾十戶的中間的空地要蓋上地面型光電所以居民是大反彈那像這樣子的話嘉義縣政府縣長翁章良這個事情爭議一爆發之後他也說經濟部應該要來研議這個都市計畫區內的地面型光電應該要設置嗎?可以設置嗎?可以不經過居民的同意嗎?這個部分我也要求你們應該要改善這個真的爭議非常大"},{"start":15334.659,"end":15360.069,"text":"上次我問過部長,部長你說不缺電嘛,雨電工生有2萬公頃,我記得非常清楚這個數字那既然有2萬公頃,這個是一個很小廠的這個光電為什麼連這麼小廠都要讓他們進到這個都市計畫的住宅區裡面去蓋這個地面型的光電而且對居民影響這麼大,你們這個部分是不是可以去研議要如何的修正這個我想我們回覆研議一下啦,為什麼會這樣子"},{"start":15361.564,"end":15364.722,"text":"好,那這個部分我要求你們多久可以研議出來?一個月?"},{"start":15366.087,"end":15392.996,"text":"一個月可以一個月可以齁好我要求這個要重新去訂定一個更周延的一個做法另外一個在這個事件爆發的時候你們經濟部發了這個新聞稿這個真的是自己打臉自己啊你們說這個國家環境研究院呢已經做過這個太陽能光電溶出實驗證明水庫光電很安全結果人家國家環境研究院說根本沒有做過這個研究你們新聞稿就這樣子寫"},{"start":15393.976,"end":15420.033,"text":"那這個中文水庫要蓋光電板這個爭議呢水利署其實也還沒有真正的許可包括很多都還沒有交的資料水質監測、防台依應、水污染防治、火災等等也都還沒有那結果你們的新聞稿就是大力的背書就覺得什麼都沒有問題可以用這樣的一個態度嗎那經濟部是不是都不監督只要遇到光電業者什麼都可以"},{"start":15421.306,"end":15436.666,"text":"報告委員我想這件事情我也回覆以後查一下到底是為什麼他會這樣子的公告對你們的新聞稿這樣子寫跟事實都不符另外一個現在發生在嘉義的這一場這個台顏綠能的光電弊案高達77公頃開發了4年發不出一度電"},{"start":15440.51,"end":15468.204,"text":"這樣一個弊案現在被檢調就是已經這個證據確鑿他現在就是已經要起訴了那這一個弊案我要問的是經濟部的責任在哪裡這麼大的77公頃台鹽綠能這樣的一個案子台鹽是屬於國營事業在他的子公司底下那四年這當中爆發出這樣子的一個這個問題那經濟部都睡著了都沒有感覺都沒有發現弊端"},{"start":15470.114,"end":15492.751,"text":"跟委員報告當初是經濟部．那時候部長你還沒有來啦對啦但是我有聽我的次長跟我講說當初是經濟部去檢舉的經濟部檢舉的什麼時候才檢舉經濟部應該什麼時候檢舉我是不是請國營司來報告這件事好國營司講一下什麼時候檢舉就是我們移送檢調大概是分別在一百就是在去年跟今年"},{"start":15493.53,"end":15517.198,"text":"所以是你們自己主動發現不對勁檢舉的?還是是民眾檢舉你們在檢舉?不是,一開始其實原來的陳啟宇陳董事長就是被我們發現那個合約有問題所以後來他才會請辭的那我們就一直在開始在整理這些案子那從他請辭以後就一直在整理這案子那大概到了去年的時候我們收集的案件比較完整的所以我們就去年就先去進行了檢舉"},{"start":15518.438,"end":15520.619,"text":"目前還在收集大家的意見那預計要多久出來?部長"},{"start":15540.236,"end":15552.711,"text":"我們還在等整合所以我們現在是農業部還有法務部還有經濟部那你一個月又過一個月今年年底會出來嗎?12月可以出來嗎?"},{"start":15554.442,"end":15570.38,"text":"這事情不能一直耗著拖著阿要不然這一些整個的弊案然後這個亂象我覺得是需要整頓一下啦我們綠能很重要但是過程當中如果有人貪贓枉法就是圖利個人、掏空公司這一些通通都是不允許的阿"},{"start":15571.361,"end":15587.77,"text":"你們預計多久可以出來報告委員 我想我們目前所我剛才同事的這個報告就是說現在行政院已經有政務委員來專責來處理這件事情所以這個實際的新的這個組織跟這個責任應該我想應該幾個月裡面應該會出來"},{"start":15597.501,"end":15597.781,"text":"徐欣盈委員"},{"start":15635.964,"end":15647.988,"text":"委員好部長好部長今天談SRF發電廠那您本身對SRF瞭解嗎?"},{"start":15658.252,"end":15676.484,"text":"跟委員報告我不是那麼瞭解不是那麼瞭解那我們可以用嗎現在有很多的這個大家的問題我想這一個我本人不是這個專家啦那我想沒關係我們現在用很多東西生活上用的我都不是專家但是要用之前要確認嘛"},{"start":15677.284,"end":15699.653,"text":"所以那個委員你要問的問題我想我的同事應該都有參加可以回答我請教您您覺得SRF這種所謂的固體再生燃料您覺得OK嗎這個現在是國際的趨勢啦好國際的趨勢而且它是減碳的相對於其他它是減碳的對減碳所以為了減碳我們可以犧牲其他的嗎"},{"start":15701.121,"end":15729.258,"text":"你要減碳你其他也要兼顧嘛所以部長您知道燃燒什麼東西會產生黛奧辛嗎?不知道沒關係不要浪費時間含氯經過高溫催化會產生黛奧辛那你知道現在不完全燃燒啦不完全燃燒就會產生黛奧辛那您知道現在很多SRF的燃料它這個在應用上"},{"start":15730.492,"end":15752.154,"text":"有很多還是產生戴奧心你知道有這種情況嗎有那所以我們台灣要但我本席知道這個在第10屆的這個就2020年開始第10屆的立法院就開始在推那推到目前您應該有接到很多的反應抗議跟爭議吧"},{"start":15754.002,"end":15755.184,"text":"好 那本席告訴你為什麼"},{"start":15764.79,"end":15793.278,"text":"本席的選區啊這個就聽到地方上有人說啊有一個地方是不是偷偷蓋焚化爐怎麼那麼臭然後呢這個那個味道常常有塑膠味燃燒金屬的毒氣味然後令人感到噁心想吐頭痛那您當然知道這個東西一定是地方民意代表他找環保局他們在那邊弄弄了很久"},{"start":15794.258,"end":15818.019,"text":"大家還是搞不清楚只知道那個廠會發出這些臭味後來也有人想說跟我們反映我們就去了解以後他就是用SRF的這個燃料的一個職場那這個情況呢讓我們發現我們台灣已經在用廢發電了現在要我們用廢來減碳嗎"},{"start":15820.199,"end":15820.619,"text":"所以SRF這種燃料棒"},{"start":15843.723,"end":15861.39,"text":"他在燃燒的時候不會產生惡臭．不會產生有毒物質．包含像戴奧辛．他不會產生對人體健康．生命的危害嗎．這一點部長您回答我如果規範上面大家都follow這個規範．他是不會的那不是啊那他"},{"start":15865.987,"end":15867.208,"text":"所以現在才聽到有民意代表跟你反映"},{"start":15890.428,"end":15901.693,"text":"我今年5月才來啊所以那現在已經11月了對所以我跟您報告這個問題所以這半年您都不知道SRF有產生這麼大的問題那個不是我主管的"},{"start":15902.776,"end":15920.368,"text":"不是主管,但是我是不是請環境部來跟您報告?好,可以可以可以委員您關心那個部分,我也知道您講的是哪一家職場我們今年6月到9月,我們有就全國所有的製造廠48家、使用廠18家,全面的總體檢那我們有提供一些體檢的一些建議給他們"},{"start":15922.009,"end":15940.056,"text":"回過頭來我們自己也會加強這個品質的規範以及排氣標準的那這樣不行啊你們不能發生問題再重新來提解跟委員報告他其實他在他在產出之前你就要確認當然有啊當然有剛剛委員所關心的代耗性的部分我們的標準就是0.1耐克那這個部分也是歐盟的標準我們希望都不會產生代耗性啊你還有你還有你只要給他一個空間那這個這個標準是國際的標準"},{"start":15951.44,"end":15953.701,"text":"這國際的標準我可以選擇不要這樣傷害人體的這個物品嗎?生產生活的過程都不要產生廢棄物但是沒有辦法垃圾一定會產生我們源頭要減量但一旦產生了我們用好的方法去處理它"},{"start":15968.018,"end":15972.461,"text":"本席接獲民眾的陳情就是他怎麼存放在那裡東北季風一吹味道就那麼重"},{"start":15993.757,"end":16015.941,"text":"你們有沒有到過現場?跟委員報告當然有阿就是說他有一些是原料的部分燃料的部分他必須要去做覆蓋所以SRF燃料只要產生出來放在那就會有錯位阿是跟委員報告這個我們台灣真的能用嗎?我們也跟地方政府、保局一起到現場去監督過了有問題我們會請他改善"},{"start":16021.083,"end":16045.011,"text":"委員如果你對這個部分有願意進一步了解我們也可以安排委員來看好我真的希望你們這個不是只有這一家可是你SRF你為了要在台灣大量運用真的不要減了碳結果我們全民的健康賠進去當然不會他一定是在我們的健康之下現在就發生會有的怕環保局就會告發那他就要改善"},{"start":16047.483,"end":16055.367,"text":"現在已經發生了 真的不要在冷氣房來做任何的決策跟判斷你實際到哪裡看過?"},{"start":16059.111,"end":16080.104,"text":"你講那家廠我就看過然後呢你覺得OK?我們有看過那目前它的連線SIMS連線就是剛剛講戴耀星的全區物質是立即要連線跟地方環保局不是你不要一直講理論現在那我請部長和次長哪一天來站在那邊我們一起在那邊站一個小時不要戴口罩試試看好不好好謝謝"},{"start":16086.288,"end":16086.328,"text":"請郭部長"},{"start":16118.854,"end":16119.094,"text":"委員好"},{"start":16135.168,"end":16135.328,"text":"主席"},{"start":16155.848,"end":16174.686,"text":"政府存在的目的就是服務國人太好了謝謝昨天談到能源議題你的專案報告我聽到張祺凱委員就直接問你黃仁勳如果反台投資他開出的條件要有100億度的綠電你毫無思索秒回答說我們可以給他呀"},{"start":16180.474,"end":16194.109,"text":"今天呢我就不對這個問題在給你提出因為你有這樣果斷的態度非常好那我認為啦就是我們的政府其實呢是搞不定這個能源政策其實不見得如您所講的"},{"start":16194.309,"end":16195.331,"text":"這個我可不可以請這個水利署跟您報告?"},{"start":16209.56,"end":16238.37,"text":"您知道對吧?水利署還有自來水公司對不對?是!好!沒關係您留在這邊他們給您資料就好因為我讓你希望能夠盡快的瞭解尤其是偏鄉的問題臺灣目前自來水的普及率是多少?您大概也不知道我給你答案112年6月份對95.5%剩下沒有自來水的地區就是位於偏鄉還有原鄉不僅僅是原住民地區喔"},{"start":16239.15,"end":16242.212,"text":"根據監察院的調查,原住民地區在111年自來水普及率仍愛鄉9.96%"},{"start":16266.386,"end":16273.969,"text":"新義鄉18.44%山地門鄉59.54%霧台鄉56.50%馬家鄉58.67%記得我剛剛跟你說55個鄉鎮嗎?就這幾個地區還有自來水其他地區都沒有自來水它叫什麼?它叫簡易自來水"},{"start":16295.316,"end":16314.965,"text":"你知道簡易自來水我們一年多少錢的預算來做嗎?不知道對吧?兩億。部長,你要注意喔,這個叫做簡易自來水,不是自來水公司的系統喔。然後你知道這要怎麼提報嗎?那我現在來告訴你,你知道非常的離譜,非常的冗長。"},{"start":16316.991,"end":16330.566,"text":"請地方政府提報簡易自來水的計畫．然後向水利署來爭取經費．水利署經費只有2億55個原箱．計畫內容包括哪些．看一下它的補助要點．"},{"start":16331.887,"end":16356.044,"text":"簡易自來水事業要符合以下的條件。第一個,總表供水的供水系統。第二個,簡易自來水設施使用已經達10年以上。第三個,用戶使用的建築物為公寓大廈管理條例所稱的住宅。請問一下偏鄉跟原鄉有公寓大廈嗎?第四個,用戶數要達20戶以下。"},{"start":16359.286,"end":16359.306,"text":"平筆"},{"start":16381.895,"end":16397.857,"text":"還有排定它的補助的優先順序。然後審查還要再看什麼呢?計畫的完整性。第二個,經費的合理性。第三個,供水的急迫性。第四個,影響的戶數。"},{"start":16399.739,"end":16425.029,"text":"部長,什麼叫做供水急迫性啊部落裡面就連一個簡易自來水都沒有了或者山區裡面我們的設備非常的容易毀損我們才會跟水利署提計劃嘛對不對那沒水喝就是一種急迫啊結果你們在最後審查的時候還要講說是不是急迫然後還要看是不是有多少的影響影響戶數"},{"start":16428.783,"end":16457.616,"text":"部長你認為這個是在服務人民嗎?剛剛我們聽到了您對所謂的一百億度的那個綠電那麼快的秒回答現在最連基本的自來水我沒有講自來水喔自來水是我們自來水公司壞掉了馬上就派人家修然後水是乾淨的簡易自來水有的時候是黃黃的有的時候枯水期的時候也沒有那請問一下一年只有兩億"},{"start":16458.556,"end":16480.791,"text":"你該怎麼處理這個事情好的謝謝委員的讓我們看到這個問題我在年底之前來完成這樣的一個修正好我是希望一個月之內要檢討完成啦好不好一個月之內因為我把問題都點出來給你了更何況我在立法院23年了"},{"start":16481.536,"end":16502.842,"text":"我很清楚原鄉地區,如果自然水公司或你的這個水利署不知道的話來我辦公室,我會很快的告訴你應該怎麼做才會符合族人的需求,可以嗎?可以還有另外一件事情,一年兩億真的不夠啊我們會來爭取可不可以?是好,今年就爭取好嗎?"},{"start":16505.124,"end":16528.522,"text":"今年好像已經確定了沒關係,如果我們有急迫性真的需要的話你用二倍金也可以來補貼我想我們署長這方面是專家啦他可以調整希望他是專家,署長希望你都了解原鄉地區跟偏鄉地區我們沒有乾淨的自來水至少給我們一個合乎規範的簡易自來水我們也有繳納稅金喔"},{"start":16530.464,"end":16530.664,"text":"請武力華委員質詢。"},{"start":16566.265,"end":16568.886,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國部長請國部長國務卿好部長好我在這邊跟你分享一個原鄉的實況其實在我們原鄉常常會遇到停電的問題就是災害發生停電那個是稀鬆平常但是日常也會發生停電"},{"start":16595.934,"end":16614.036,"text":"以桃園有一個叫復興區他曾經在2021年的時候新聞上可以看到當時的區長說一年停電高達100次以上那去年呢2023年呢再一次引起民怨新的區長也說"},{"start":16615.618,"end":16641.737,"text":"一年停電高達100次以上所以我其實在去年的年底我有到地方去做一個協調那很感謝臺電其實也有了積極作為把整個電路去做修復那我相信現在應該是改善許多但是我只是以這個為例子讓您了解其實在我們的原鄉"},{"start":16642.958,"end":16670.693,"text":"我們災害發生之後我們有很多的風倒木那這些風倒木呢因為搶災最重要的就是要立刻把路搶通所以呢以這個復興區來講他們為了要解決這個問題其實他們有跟一些民間的單位他們也有所謂的CSR這樣的社會企業責任他們就去做了這樣的事情齁那您可以看一下這個圖片"},{"start":16671.894,"end":16695.475,"text":"他們就是有一個移動型的去化設備像是一個卡車那聽到哪裡必須要搶災搶修他們就去把那邊的樹木去給它移除那部長你應該很了解像這種廢木材它其實就是屬於一種生殖能可以去做一個生殖燃料那我們也很鼓勵為什麼如果以民房的觀點啊"},{"start":16696.775,"end":16696.815,"text":"來 現在問題來了齁"},{"start":16726.937,"end":16740.897,"text":"經濟部我們有一個鼓勵的辦法叫做再生能源發電設備設置的管理辦法我們來看一下第四條之一他提到"},{"start":16741.718,"end":16742.819,"text":"我可不可以請能源署來回答這個問題?"},{"start":16769.233,"end":16785.823,"text":"跟委員報告當時我們在設定的時候因為定制型就是它有一個固定位置因為它要做發電的時候它一定會有料源的管理以及它的排放的管理所以針對移動型的我們當時沒有這樣的一個考慮那委員所提出來這個我們後續可能搭配這一次SRF的修正"},{"start":16791.744,"end":16802.948,"text":"謝謝 謝謝你們能夠做這樣的因應變化那我接下來就是也要請教一下因為我們也有一個能源署的公民電廠我跟部長講好多原鄉躍躍欲試啊"},{"start":16804.648,"end":16823.764,"text":"可是後來都跟我抱怨澄清其實我三年前兩年前都陸陸續續有人跟我抱怨澄清這個很好因為國家想要去做一個分散電網微型電網然後讓我們的這些社區也好鄉鎮也好他能夠參與但是我跟部長說吼恐怕成效很有限吶"},{"start":16824.665,"end":16842.803,"text":"我們看第一種獎勵辦法他有所謂的原住民地區參與再生能源設置的獎勵辦法他是針對原住民地區的鄉鎮事工所我跟部長講你知道目前有哪個原鄉有成功設置嗎有醫院的有喔但是你知道成功設置的有嗎"},{"start":16846.516,"end":16849.817,"text":"即便你要講台東大午紅葉對不對那個也是企業啊那個也不是鄉公所有辦法做的啊為什麼我們來看一下辦法因為法規裡面提到說第6條之一他說評估階段會給200萬元"},{"start":16863.702,"end":16876.705,"text":"執行設置階段他說下列情形為上限且不得設置超過新台幣1000萬元又提到發電設備不能夠超過20%儲能設備不能夠超過40%我簡單跟部長換算總之意思就是說我為了得到政府你補助我1000萬我設備要準備4000萬誰做得到"},{"start":16889.711,"end":16918.334,"text":"誰做得到所以您了解我的意思那因為時間的關係我再講另外一個設置辦法是屬於合作社社區型的好很好不一定要相公所做如果我社區發展協會要做也可以可是我們看一下他的辦法挺好的改了50%意思就是說政府你出一半我出一半相對合理但是還是很困難但是重點是說總裝置容量要10千瓦以上"},{"start":16919.315,"end":16925.894,"text":"我們看一個圖片好多原鄉正在做這種防災型的微電網喔但是他們拿不到獎勵"},{"start":16927.301,"end":16927.481,"text":"我們回去檢討"},{"start":16951.476,"end":16952.276,"text":"請沈博洋委員質詢"},{"start":16983.142,"end":17007.865,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長還有國際貿易署的署長,謝謝請署長部長好,我沒有來過經濟委員會但是因為在之前總質詢的時候有特別問到院長跟經濟安全有關的事情不過那一次因為只有內政跟國防的在,經濟部不在所以我有些想要追問的事項"},{"start":17008.886,"end":17024.545,"text":"那第一個就是因為這個2019年開始日本就一直在推經濟安保啦那我今天有看一下這一個經濟部的這個業務報告有特別提到像譬如說左邊這個供應鏈的強化啦核心基礎設施啦尤其是這個非紅供應鏈我有特別看到這一點"},{"start":17025.326,"end":17044.557,"text":"右邊這一點是我們現在比較關注的一個當然就是指說我們到底要推動哪些技術我有看到報告有提到這一些但有一些就是竊取技術這件事情現在竊取技術以日本來講他們有做在2019到現在已經大概做了五年的一些盤點這些盤點包含一些人才的挖角、商業的間諜"},{"start":17045.518,"end":17065.658,"text":"那我之前是為了教育部跟這一個人才挖角有關的事情那現在經濟部這一邊對於就是說我們的技術的外流這件事情我想說特別追問一下那我就先拿一個最近的案例就是這個台積電的事情就是說這個它的晶片流入華為那時候講看新聞他是講說有可能是透過這個算能科技"},{"start":17066.238,"end":17087.201,"text":"算能科技看起來在中國是屬於比特大陸那因為比特大陸在之前它有被查過一次在被北檢那在查的那一次的過程當中它是說這個程序上在申請的時候有些問題啊等等之類那時候它台灣有一家公司嘛那家公司現在停掉不過我們現在在懷疑就會不會是同一家公司一樣的人現在移到算能科技上"},{"start":17087.842,"end":17100.348,"text":"那如果我們現在要針對這件事情來做一些這個盤點跟回應的話因為一定不是只有這件事情而且現在也只是我們的一個推測而已但我們現在對於這些清單對於這些預防大概進展到什麼程度"},{"start":17101.329,"end":17125.727,"text":"報告委員我想就這個個案來講TSMC第一個TSMC是守法的國際的公司他一定是遵法遵循法令的這個規定那就這個個案來講TSMC有通報美國出國管制單位那現在來講就是說因為我們知道美國有他的清單台灣也有自己的清單那我們沒有說一定就是說我們一定要跟著"},{"start":17125.947,"end":17126.768,"text":"我這個是不是請國貿署跟你沒有問題?"},{"start":17151.875,"end":17168.812,"text":"報告委員確實如您所說的我們的實體的清單是比美國這個比較晚制定的但是呢我們每一季都會找相關單位來做這個檢討那您所垂詢的這些公司並沒有在我們的實體清單之內"},{"start":17169.448,"end":17197.058,"text":"好那因為我看彭博也有講他說這件事情他並不是說什麼很大的破口但他至少是一個教訓對不對就發生了這件事情那畢竟華為發生這一個清單是在美國是比較早以前的事所以看能不能在這一季稍微盤點一下尤其是比特大陸也算是一家蠻大的公司所以是不是經濟部能夠針對這一點看下一季盤點的時候畢竟以華為來講幾乎是全台灣人民都知道華為的背景所以是不是能夠盤點一下這個對我們的經濟安全可能會有比較好的保障"},{"start":17197.298,"end":17197.578,"text":"另外一個小問題這個是淘寶"},{"start":17214.58,"end":17243.62,"text":"那這可以看到呢這個現在在我們的捷運啊什麼等等之類的這個淘寶免運啊齁這個變得很多啦齁當然這一件事情齁它不是跟我們剛剛講的什麼關鍵技術什麼可能沒有什麼太大的關聯但淘寶畢竟它是一個電商電商會有一定個資上的問題那我們之前有盤點了一下其實淘寶來台灣大概有4次一次是08年那一次那2015被投審會裁罰一次是2013港商被撤回登記還有一次是2018又再用一次港商這個還在"},{"start":17244.66,"end":17272.785,"text":"最右邊因傷的那一個呢也被投審會裁罰了所以我們現在的問題是應該是最中間的那一個但他的業務只有電子資訊供應服務業跟廣告傳單分送業但是我們可以看到他們現在放的這個廣告看起來不僅是如此啦齁那如果說只是有一個裁罰對他的傷害可能也不是很大那但是他又會掌握許多台灣人民的個資台灣人也是喜歡買便宜的東西嘛所以就這一點呢不知道經濟部能不能夠就這件事情來做一份處理"},{"start":17274.225,"end":17293.578,"text":"我們這個要回去再研商一下因為這個問題比較複雜因為它一定是按照法令進來所以我們如果沒有實際的這個證據我想我們要對它裁罰可能有點困難我們要回去想一下然後大家討論一下再來跟委員報告"},{"start":17294.598,"end":17309.85,"text":"希望能夠盡快因為畢竟他應該就是瞄準說什麼雙11啊什麼等等之類的那就會有大量的個資被收集所以我很希望就是說接下來可能來不及在這邊做一些報告但是不是我們直接譬如說在辦公室針對這件事情我們趕快來做一下盤點"},{"start":17310.73,"end":17329.056,"text":"這個部分我可能要跟數位部再討論一下沒問題數位部有他們自己的清單但是跟經濟部可能又有點分開那可以一起也沒有關係但我希望能夠趕快處理互相蒐集一下然後也請我們這個單位來跟委員就教好沒問題那有要說明的嗎還是沒有沒有那我就先這個樣子因為時間到了謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":17349.355,"end":17359.76,"text":"請羅廷威委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請部長。請郭部長。"},{"start":17370.211,"end":17381.159,"text":"您好部長好部長我很關心喔臺南最近有兩個立委在關心所謂的久違電廠設置這個燃氣機組那他們在抗議的過程我想他們的訴求你都知道吧哈囉他們在你是說兩位立委抗議對林俊憲、郭國文抗議久違電廠設置燃氣機組"},{"start":17394.485,"end":17417.793,"text":"林基炫委員好像沒有提到這個問題好沒關係他們的抗議內容大致你知道狀況嗎我在這個接受質詢的時候大概只有這個郭國文委員提出嘛好那他提出的內容就是希望不要設置在那邊那最後您有同意嗎我們現在我現在還沒有到程序不到我這裡有沒有同意我要"},{"start":17418.854,"end":17441.846,"text":"看他的這個程序的走的,看狀況是怎麼樣好,我現在另外一部分我想再另外關心喔因為昨天張祺凱委員有在這個諮詢的時候有提到黃仁勳這個AI大廠說需要100億的綠電,您是秒答應看起來是非常非常的有決心要做這件事情那我們當然覺得利益良善但是台中人"},{"start":17442.466,"end":17462.603,"text":"有所謂台中人的一個需求在今天我要提出我希望你能夠看到台中人現在的一個困境首先我想先請問幾個問題就較於你自己齁那雖然有一些不一定是環境的一些專業但是你如果可以回答就盡量的說齁那請問中火燃煤目前所燒的煤是賴慶德口中乾淨的煤嗎?這個我是不是請這個實際我們台電來回答這個問題請說"},{"start":17472.199,"end":17494.431,"text":"不好意思時間一直在轉我速度在等你們報告委員我們台電選擇的煤都盡量採高燃值低灰值的這個煤所以就是賴清德口中乾淨的煤我們盡量燒那個就是比例最高就是能源效率最好你結巴了所以跟他所陳述的是一樣的"},{"start":17496.444,"end":17524.074,"text":"呃...我們...好,我不勉強你啦來我幾個訴求要跟部長特別說部長待會環境部會有一個會議是有關於台電現在所謂的蒸汽不一定會減煤之前王美花部長有特別提到在台中如果要增加燃氣機組會幫我們減煤炭機組那這個部分您的態度呢是,完全正確阿你也會繼續朝這個部分來執行嗎這是蒸汽來減煤阿"},{"start":17525.894,"end":17534.859,"text":"對阿真的實際會有所謂的我們的藍媒機組會直接除役嗎?我們現在看到的是停了機組一增一減喔喔這個不一定"},{"start":17540.606,"end":17542.328,"text":"那你有相關的一個配套或者是在入到公文白紙黑字確定嗎?"},{"start":17557.946,"end":17571.956,"text":"這個不需要白紙黑字吧當然需要當然你可能覺得不需要但對於我們台中人是水深火熱我要講到的是幾件事情喔沒關係為我的訴求我要先講喔台中人就像現在我手中所拿的這個是所謂的空氣濾淨機"},{"start":17573.317,"end":17591.233,"text":"我們被當成是行動的空氣濾鏡機在這個政策之下一直不斷的犧牲最近啊你有沒有看到在整個網路的輿論當中只要搜尋一下電費帳單大家不斷的在網路上亮出自己的帳單告訴我們現在的社會他覺得實際漲價有感"},{"start":17594.435,"end":17609.02,"text":"電費真的是越來越貴我們一手被拿走了財產一手被奪取了生命從台中市衛生局所登記列載的我們相關的致癌率由肺癌是最高的"},{"start":17609.62,"end":17630.837,"text":"所以我可行性的去了解我去評估如果藍莓機組持續的汰除可以有效的降低所謂的致癌尤其是肺癌這個部分第三個我要講的是我們現在看到的這也有關於所謂的前瞻計畫當然前瞻計畫我們一直在講我們希望不要有所謂的中部跟南部的差距"},{"start":17631.918,"end":17652.169,"text":"現在看到南部高雄拿了1256億台中只有228億這些都是中央對待於台中市把台中市當成是二等公民我們第三層的剝削在這邊第四層的剝削我們要看到所許多的新聞我們都在問現在的賴總統我們的電力網的分部他跟大家說啊"},{"start":17652.969,"end":17675.556,"text":"電網分散提早4年完成現在我們卻看到如果這些燃煤燃氣機組同時在火力發電廠他一定是台灣之罪他的排汰量也一定會是世界之罪我們很擔憂在電力部網的一個過程沒有去過於分散沒有去做相關的電網分布"},{"start":17676.671,"end":17697.691,"text":"這對於中共來說是最開心的他攻擊台中火力發電廠就可以控制大部分的所謂的電力輸出我想以上這些我簡單的講了這麼多都只是希望我們這些能夠再協助台中市的發聲能夠給中央部會看到台中市的需求我曾經在火力發電廠決實抗議從當時我們就"},{"start":17702.02,"end":17725.272,"text":"決定一定要反對藍莓機組到現在我的初衷都沒有變那剛剛很高興有聽到你所說的藍棲機組能夠一併的到位以後能夠太除藍莓機組我想從這樣子的一個態度我們可以認同但我們也很擔心中間會被跳票所以我們一定要強烈的反應"},{"start":17726.272,"end":17738.707,"text":"我們的心聲跟需求謝謝委員你一定要支持我們的燃氣上去不然它你看不到燃沒下來第二個我是不是能夠請你這個了解一下子肺癌"},{"start":17739.69,"end":17767.589,"text":"不是我的這個燃煤機場唯一的要素我們可不可以了解一下臺中有多少人抽煙然後它跟這個肺癌症相關我們要了解這個問題我們希望真正的來同樣因為臺中也是我們的國民我們也關心整個臺中的這個發展大家的健康所以我要知道那個原因是什麼如果真的是我們"},{"start":17768.61,"end":17773.332,"text":"部長我們的結論很簡單我們都支持燃氣機組換燃煤機組我們沒有要去擋現在也看到如果今天燃氣機組這麼好那為什麼郭國文他們要去做抗議"},{"start":17794.42,"end":17815.837,"text":"那他們可以抗議臺中市不能夠發聲臺中市沒有說不裝燃氣機組臺中市沒有說不裝燃氣機組我們可以燃氣換燃煤我們最低的要求最低的一線是燃氣換煤當然啦他有很多理由去牽扯到說那個地方不對那我也講嘛臺中地方不對應該到外縣市嘛"},{"start":17816.798,"end":17818.379,"text":"在陳冠廷委員質詢完畢休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":17859.752,"end":17859.773,"text":"請過部長。"},{"start":17870.273,"end":17883.706,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長在前幾天AIT的Director谷麗妍她有提到說半導體要使用綠能那現在的台灣可能沒有辦法滿足這些需求"},{"start":17884.673,"end":17905.804,"text":"那我想臺灣的半導體公司他必須要用綠能來達到R100的這個百分之百再生能源的這些需求那這樣子的這個我們說他們的concern他們擔憂的部分那臺積電他就我們所知他應該是全球第一個成為R100的半導體企業那根據國家再生能源評測中心裡面有統計臺積電購買的"},{"start":17907.805,"end":17925.932,"text":"指轉公平證的數量是89.5萬張但是它佔的總評證的交易大概是99%也就是說現在全台灣的綠電評證幾乎都是由台積電來去買下來另一個面向就是說其他業者對於綠電的需求政府可能可以提供的是遠遠不及"},{"start":17927.287,"end":17941.653,"text":"那我們現在我看卓院長昨天答覆委員的質詢的時候他是說我國在2030年底要達到綠電的供電比大概是要30%可是可能沒有辦法完成IEA的預期目標的一半"},{"start":17942.657,"end":17968.518,"text":"那我現在想說我們現在不管是風冷、太陽冷我們當然是花費很多的心力在討論這一塊但是在地熱的部分就我們的資料顯示它在整個再生能源的佔比還不到1%我們好像是在鹿堡山而空軌沒有好好的去利用台灣的這個地熱的優勢我想請教一下部長關於這方面的地熱的探勘現在的狀況是怎麼樣?報告委員我們現在為止的地熱"},{"start":17969.719,"end":17975.784,"text":"大部分都是比較淺層的探勘那我們現在應該有差不多"},{"start":17978.052,"end":18005.381,"text":"不是啦,你現在一Gigabit一、伊蘭元山、大屯火山群那邊我們大概有7M的淺層的但是台灣跟委員報告台灣大概淺層的地熱運償量大概只有1Gigabit但是深層的也就是說4000公尺到6000公尺的運償量大概有40Gigabit這個40Gigabit全部能開發出來我們現在台灣大概"},{"start":18006.468,"end":18027.311,"text":"用的量就是40G但是它因為是地熱所以上來以後轉換成可以用的大概是8.5G8.5G也是非常大所以我們現在呢非常努力的在這個做這個地熱的開發我來了我當部長以後我檢視了一下我們的自有的資源也就是說"},{"start":18028.212,"end":18055.137,"text":"我們要臺灣自己本身能夠產出的這個能源是什麼就地熱、水力然後生殖能大概是這些所以我們現在非常努力的在這個地熱上面強化所以我除了中油公司以外我台電公司自己本身也做那除了國營的這兩個大公司下去做以外因為這是它核心的技術其他的民間的業者我們也鼓勵他們來參與"},{"start":18056.437,"end":18081.557,"text":"所以現在開始了我相信會開啟一波在臺灣發展這個地熱的這個這樣的一個形式部長有什麼獎勵措施啊?剛才您提到說要請民間的這些民間現在因為我們可以看到全球在地熱上面有成就的這些公司包括在土耳其的包括在菲律賓包括在日本包括在這個義大利的這些都有"},{"start":18082.277,"end":18104.014,"text":"我們請他們來評估不過我們現在我個人是比較期待我們現在中油跟中央研究院的那個所謂的探勘的這個案子因為它是一個比較先進的研究案我們打一座井最怕的就打下去水上不來或者是油上不來"},{"start":18104.741,"end":18134.008,"text":"那我們現在中央科學院他們的這個技術就是我不用打到那麼深就可以知道會不會有這些熱源謝謝部長我還是在強調就是說現在基本上你說燃油燃氣的這些機組等等我看這個已經成為一個很大的爭點但是我們也是必須思考說再生能源確實是一個是戰略的方向那也是所有重大企業不得不燃那已經是國際的都有這樣的需求是的"},{"start":18134.528,"end":18158.624,"text":"所以除了在風電之外、太陽能發電之外那種可以作為基載能源的地熱它可以穩定長時間供應4小時供應的那不會因為氣候、不會因為地形、地貌來去做改變的這樣是對我台灣很重要所以我目前看到是只有宜蘭園山現在是在做地熱的探勘那我認為盡快就是把深層的"},{"start":18160.325,"end":18160.465,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":18194.128,"end":18194.148,"text":"公佈會議"},{"start":18213.49,"end":18226.049,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18233.76,"end":18256.64,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":18495.558,"end":18496.078,"text":"好,繼續開會,請圖全級委員諮詢。"},{"start":18522.568,"end":18547.807,"text":"好,謝謝郭部長那今天也是我們針對SRF發電廠規劃以及對我們環境影響的評估那針對經濟部跟環境部的專案主題報告那我們針對我們其實一直以來我們針對桃園三家廠商進駐SRF廠商進駐這個程序不正義其實我們已經多次也像"},{"start":18548.887,"end":18566.161,"text":"經濟部表達地方鄉親以及地方政府的反對的意見那我們今天就針對我們像我們桃園市政府已經有提出兩次撤銷三家廠商入園許可這部分部長應該知道吧"},{"start":18567.282,"end":18584.013,"text":"我應該知道好那這一部分之前我們部長也有在媒體來表示說有關SRF廠的入園與否主導權跟決定權在桃園市政府而且尊重主管單位的決定是的"},{"start":18584.693,"end":18601.511,"text":"好那這一部分喔那所以我們也知道第一次在桃園市政府以經濟部撤銷推薦函為由認為三家廠商不具備入園的要件因此那時候提出撤銷三家廠商的入園許可那當然經濟部後來在6月9號"},{"start":18604.594,"end":18616.035,"text":"也撤銷了市府廢止入園的行政處分表示廠商的入園許可是桃園市政府的職權然後依圖管規定即可嘛 對不對"},{"start":18617.469,"end":18636.001,"text":"是的那所以後來第二次我們桃園市政府又依照行政程序法規定認為三家廠商不具備入園的要件並撤銷三家廠商的入園許可那這部分提出的部分經濟部同意嗎?"},{"start":18637.679,"end":18662.944,"text":"這個權利是地方政府的對他第二次因為第一次你說他單就撤銷推薦函來廢止這三家廠商入園許可你們認為這是不對的應該因為你說這個從頭到尾決定權、主導權都在桃園市政府依圖管規定就可以並不能因一個不具法律效力的推薦函就來廢止這三家的入園許可嘛"},{"start":18663.504,"end":18681.614,"text":"所以第二次桃園市政府就依照行政程序法來提出說認為行政程序不正義來撤銷這三家廠商入園許可那這部分不知道部長對這有沒有什麼意見報告委員我想你剛才在所說的這個這個其實不是經濟部這個的決定這個是那個"},{"start":18688.217,"end":18714.982,"text":"有的一個委員會、術院委員會的依法決定那我們只能依法行政所以重點其實經濟部一直從頭到尾的立場就沒有改變你也認為其實這個桃科廠商入園的規定就是桃園市政府有絕對的主導權跟決定權他只要依照這個圖管規定來辦理即可是不是"},{"start":18716.138,"end":18732.2,"text":"是的法令規定就是這個是地方政府的權利地方政府要怎麼做他有權利這樣做但是送來溯源的這個部分其實不是這個命題我們也不能夠去影響溯源委員會那個是由專家學者"},{"start":18732.861,"end":18750.711,"text":"他們來討論做出來的決定所以現在第二次第二次那個市政府提出的還沒有決定嘛蘇聯委員會還沒有決定對他們還在還在我們我們不會去影響這樣的事情所以也真的因為第一次被退回桃園市政府也不再糾結這個經濟部"},{"start":18752.992,"end":18776.28,"text":"撤銷推薦函的部分他是針對109年12月23號那時候桃園市政府跟經濟部有開了第二次的會議那會議的結論也有公文啦他的結論就是說是SRF為再生能源的產業並由經濟部向市府推薦以專案核准進駐桃科園區"},{"start":18778.141,"end":18806.816,"text":"也就是當初經濟部就是把SRF認定是再生能源也就是國家的重大能源政策所以發這個推薦函給桃園市政府要求桃園市政府以專案核准的方式讓它進駐桃科園區那針對這一部分我們也來了解當初所以山家SRF廠廠商是經過這一部分才進去那後來"},{"start":18808.196,"end":18834.226,"text":"經濟部當然也有表示推薦函沒有法律效力所以不能依推薦函就撤銷這三家的入園許可那當然我們這一部分我們覺得也是有道理的並不能因為他沒有推薦函就廢止所以後來桃園市政府才用行政程序法居然沒有推薦函那就表示你沒有推薦函就不應該用專案的方式讓你通過"},{"start":18835.106,"end":18849.746,"text":"入園所以要求居然撤銷的推薦案就不能以專案的方式那就必須按照原來桃科的土地使用分區管制的要點應該要重新來走程序"},{"start":18850.99,"end":18872.636,"text":"那部長覺得這樣對不對?同意阿喔同意嘛所以其實就就是只要重新走程序就對了嘛所以我也希望喔數院委員會要知道要記得我們經濟部的方向當初桃園市政府就是因為經濟部認定SRF是再生能源所以"},{"start":18873.816,"end":18897.458,"text":"經濟部一推薦函桃園市政府才同意以專案的方式放准讓它入行所以居然撤銷這個推薦函所以基本上這個專案已經不存在了就應該要重新走這個程序而且這部分我據我們有看到經濟部也有針對這部分好像有針對新的"},{"start":18899.58,"end":18917.187,"text":"我們再生能源發展條例好像有新的規範是不是要排除了一般廢棄物以一般事業廢棄物列入再生能源的發電設備因為經濟部有公告、預告那我請這個能源署長跟你報告"},{"start":18918.684,"end":18938.2,"text":"各位報告這次的修法是把這個要納入到再生條例獎勵優惠的只限於生殖能SRF的料源是屬生殖能部分保留其他的部分就回到熱處理用氣墊共生的方式來保留那我請問一下SRF它裡面所壓縮的原料是不是一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物所以它要區分我們在這次修法的時候把它做出來"},{"start":18938.28,"end":18957.842,"text":"就是原本它裡面就是有一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物所以這次經濟部特別來針對這一部分來修改也就是說以後裡面有一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物就排除再生能源的發電設備之外對不對排除在我們的獎勵然後改用氣電共生的方式來輔導它設置"},{"start":18958.943,"end":18987.489,"text":"對阿所以也就是說SRF就是如果SRF裡面是用一般廢氣物跟一般CA廢氣物他就排除再生能源發電設備的獎勵裡面嘛所以也就是把SRF如果裡面還有這間就排除在外所以也就是說因為現在是在預告階段對阿就是說方向就是這樣嘛所以也就是說SRF基本上以經濟部新修改的方向就把它排除在再生能源之外"},{"start":18988.479,"end":19006.853,"text":"在申請人員的發電設備的獎勵之外所以在這一部分我也特別來跟我們經濟部來說明我們一定要記得當初桃園市政府會同意他入園就是因為經濟部把他認定"},{"start":19007.874,"end":19026.203,"text":"再生能源然後經濟部一再生能源國家能源之重大政策所以才用這個推薦函開了兩次的會議要求桃園市政府以專案核准的方式讓他來通過所以今天這兩個要件第一"},{"start":19027.003,"end":19054.923,"text":"推薦函經濟部也已經撤回第二這個再生能源其實當初那個時候我們也詢問過我們的環境部那時候薛副省部長他也直接很明確就講他說這個絕對不是綠能然後針對再生能源的部分我們剛剛也有講再生能源他針對發電設備他已經排除在獎勵之外所以基本這一部分我們希望就像剛剛部長講的我們"},{"start":19055.943,"end":19072.257,"text":"這三家廠商重新入園我們希望按照這個程序居然已經撤銷推薦函而且你們已經要秉儲在再生能源發電設備的獎勵之外所以希望這個溯源能夠支持桃園市政府"},{"start":19072.717,"end":19088.308,"text":"撤銷他的入園規定讓他重新走這個程序他如果真的是一切合法我們是絕對歡迎只要經濟部還有環境部在12月份重新修訂加嚴的辦法的部分他真的都能夠通過"},{"start":19088.968,"end":19112.501,"text":"我們也沒有拒絕他的理由我們一直堅持這個一定要程序正義居然已經撤銷了推薦函又秉持在再生能源發電設備之外所以希望這個訴願能夠支持桃園市政府的行政處分讓他重新走程序部長這樣可以嗎?訴願委員是獨立的啦所以我們也不能夠要…那訴願委員是誰騙的?"},{"start":19115.988,"end":19116.168,"text":"請月圓之"},{"start":19145.335,"end":19172.47,"text":"請葉延芝、葉延芝、葉延芝委員不在．請馬文君、馬文君、馬文君也委員不在．請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在．請顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員不在．請陳培宇、陳培宇、陳培宇委員不在．請林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員不在．請洪孟凱、洪孟凱、洪孟凱委員不在．請羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在．請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":19180.675,"end":19209.008,"text":"謝謝主席,我請部長請郭部長委員好是,部長好,我想昨天我們剛好在專報的時候討論過這個題目那我看到昨天臺電有回了一個新聞稿這個所謂的致船費三年三十億那三年三十億他們是說因為臺中的煤倉沒有完工的原因"},{"start":19210.305,"end":19235.783,"text":"那臺中煤倉沒有完工的原因那麼看到之前花了140億蓋了8年這8年接下來昨天的臺電的新聞稿看得我不知道要笑還是要哭他說這樣的話我們今年只需要花4億是嗎?你是說4億很驕傲的意思嗎?委員我是不是可以請那個臺電總市長跟您報告所以我先請部長說你覺得我們只花4億"},{"start":19236.741,"end":19248.978,"text":"要覺得很驕傲的意思嗎?他說他今年只需要花4億自傳費去年花了前三年花了30億所以我們今年只要花4億部長我的意思是我們連4塊錢都不應該花"},{"start":19251.308,"end":19266.719,"text":"我同意我也尊重委員的這樣的看法也就是說我們還是希望臺電把國家的錢當成錢是的把國家的錢不要當成他們可以自己浪費的東西來 董事長你要不要說一下"},{"start":19270.179,"end":19283.039,"text":"好,委員第一個事情我們要減少自傳費的發生這點事情是確定的這是一個我覺得不可以發生的事情但它發生了那面對但是不要變成好像這是應該的"},{"start":19283.885,"end":19310.658,"text":"那個委員我有說明一下因為自然會發生有的時候真的是比方說燃煤如果被要求降減煤的時候我們因為傳播的調度或者是用電量減少像去年2023年我理解但是不可以一年花20億啊是所以我們現在要下降這個叫做太離譜了要減低這個事情發生不過我也跟委員報告我們其實是有在提高他整個備用的備用的量所以才會往上這是審計部說的不是我黃珊珊說的是"},{"start":19311.758,"end":19333.313,"text":"你們不要去打臉審計部,然後想要自己說明,如果今年划到4億還是不應該啊?這個我回去深刻檢討,我非常贊同這個委員的指教。好,那接下來就是部長我想再討論一下有關基隆協和電廠的事。協和電廠在我們的官網一直都說今年底要除役。"},{"start":19335.107,"end":19361.783,"text":"臺電也說要轉緊急備用電力我現在要跟你確定他是不是確定廚藝只轉緊急備用我這個部分我的瞭解是不是轉緊急備用會看狀況來所以還不確定還不確定還不確定那如果轉緊急備用在環境部我上禮拜諮詢的時候環境部的就說如果轉緊急備用的話環境部就可以限制他運轉的時間時數"},{"start":19365.282,"end":19367.104,"text":"我請董事長跟您討論一下"},{"start":19384.022,"end":19413.402,"text":"好,各位委員報告就是我們第一個是協和電廠會依照環保法規在運轉第二個是720小時我們會把它適度的運用在會盡量購用不要再告訴大家說我其實沒有廚藝偷偷的繼續用好嗎部長我今天要講的就是說我不是沒有廚藝偷偷的用我就是一定會照著規範在做沒錯好,我現在要說的是協和電廠它是一個燃油電廠它的燃油成本一度將近是7塊半"},{"start":19414.462,"end":19436.065,"text":"我們收電費才收3塊所以協和電廠發一度電就賠4塊半如果他要做緊急備用我沒有意見那是為了國家的整體需要但是接下去假設環民通過協和電廠接下去的4階完成新建大概要7年的時間我現在只是要問我們打算這7年裡面花多少錢"},{"start":19437.086,"end":19457.456,"text":"去做這個緊急預轉要賠要賠多少錢我們應該趕快把它轉成燃氣的電廠燃氣要7年了部長這7年裡面沒有東西啊這7年裡面如果繼續做備載的話如果這個市接同意讓我接它應該是同時可以進行沒有那麼快至少要7年"},{"start":19458.622,"end":19459.202,"text":"好的謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":19493.953,"end":19515.655,"text":"登記發言的委員．除了不在場外．其餘的均已發言完畢．詢答結束．有張家俊委員．陳超明委員．所提的書面質詢列入記錄．刊登公報．書面質詢及未及答覆的部分．請相關單位與一週內以書面．答覆並複資本會．本日所列議程處理完畢．"},{"start":19516.816,"end":19535.995,"text":"另外,第21號颱風康瑞已經增強為強烈颱風．並直撲臺灣。中央氣象署已經發布海上跟陸上的颱風警報．請大家做好充分的防颱準備．照顧好自己．也請保護好家園。謝謝大家,現在散會。"},{"start":19553.345,"end":19554.089,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19558.289,"end":19558.789,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"156342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade9732fc2aa8abfa01b22eacfd31272a3d01f23eb7619bd402e766b101dd82558b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"13:23:49 - 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一個調查那麼我們在這個行業的掌握數裡面工業部門是大概3.1萬個"},{"start":2053.661,"end":2057.602,"text":"戰466.2趴服務業部門是3.6萬個職缺戰563.8趴工業部門裡面大概製造業2.1萬31.9趴是比較高的還有營建工程7.3千個11趴這兩個都屬於工業部門是比較高的服務業部門裡面批發零售9千戰13.6"},{"start":2080.329,"end":2102.461,"text":"數數餐飲6.3千佔9.4%還有醫療保健6千人9.1%大概是前三名排行高的那麼在另外一個有意義的部分是在於所謂的什麼樣的類型的工作比較缺其實大家都以為是基層體力工缺其實不是"},{"start":2102.961,"end":2128.493,"text":"基層體系工在我們這次的調查空缺裡面大概只有5.1%的戰缺而已那麼大概7000人左右最缺的是所謂的技術技術人員就是我們大概在行業分類裡面有第二層以上的就是所謂的記憶機械設備操作及組裝人員這樣的第二層的人他就缺了大概"},{"start":2130.234,"end":2158.843,"text":"二十三趴的兩萬三千人三十四趴左右像這樣的技術人員總共在整個這個職缺裡面就佔了四萬個或是四萬個有六十趴左右的這樣的佔缺所以大概其實在我們這次的調查裡面比較有意義的呈現就是說真正的缺工其實是在中階技術人力的缺乏"},{"start":2159.523,"end":2178.152,"text":"是目前當今是最嚴重的而不是基層的體力工所以這是這一次調查比較有意義的部分那麼當然我們現在對中階技術人力的這樣子的問題一方面我們必須補足本土中階技術人力的這樣子的訓練尤其是對青年中階人力這就要靠我們產學訓合作還有包括像我這一次帶出國"},{"start":2185.996,"end":2189.779,"text":"而比賽的這種技能競賽的這樣的青年透過以賽代訓能夠學訓用合一打造跟教育部經濟部共同打造學訓用整合的平臺那麼這個是我們對國內的青年中階人才的這樣子的希望能夠進步加強來培訓以及培訓培訓跟這一個培育那麼其實是對於這一個橋外生"},{"start":2210.997,"end":2215.584,"text":"引進橋外生的中階。各位也都知道我上任以來已經開放了我們橋外生包括這一個評點制的分數以及我們把配額的打開限制都放開了"},{"start":2226.84,"end":2241.784,"text":"還有我們最近開放了旅宿業可以從事小外生可以從事旅宿業的中階工作以及我們也要進一步開放包括客運公車司機還有這個醫院護佐還有這個貨車司機跟助理員的這樣子的允許橋外生的中階技術人員來從事"},{"start":2250.146,"end":2274.315,"text":"所以大概以上是我們關於這一次的職位缺工缺統計調查報告的報告以上謝謝好謝謝何部長那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答以做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘"},{"start":2276.4,"end":2295.616,"text":"10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢：三會前提出與其不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":2302.843,"end":2305.546,"text":"謝謝主席有請何部長有請何部長昨天商總會邀請勞動部討論缺工議題不知道部長在那個會議當中有什麼心得嗎"},{"start":2321.284,"end":2321.464,"text":"我是覺得當然"},{"start":2336.02,"end":2342.123,"text":"裡面的其實我想也符合我們今天的統計調查我的意思就是說我坐在資方他們因為這個是大老闆們那資方會有一些觀點那我也希望說部長要記得要跟基層的這個員工不要開會從他們角度的一個觀點那部長"},{"start":2355.11,"end":2373.928,"text":"主計總署對全臺灣的工作職缺做了調查根據目前最新的統計左邊這個紅框框只有24萬個工作職缺那最缺的全屋民跟您剛剛的報告方向大概是一致工業部門的製造業跟營業工程業是最多的然後服務部門是批發零售業還有住宿餐飲跟醫療保健"},{"start":2380.654,"end":2401.872,"text":"勞動部本身有一個缺工調查我們都是把前五這個數字就是我們都拿前五的缺工最嚴重的部分來做個比對但是差很大部長你看這個部分是土地總署的那個數字是17萬3就是我們指的全缺工最五大行業的裡面是17萬個但是貴部的只有49700"},{"start":2406.976,"end":2426.868,"text":"委員 我就是要跟您 剛剛我的報告 其實還有部分要補足 就是 組長的統計方式跟我們不一樣 他詢問的問題 他是問說 你現在缺什麼 你現在是否有 缺人 那麼我們問的是說 你過去6個月真的都找不到人"},{"start":2427.888,"end":2447.563,"text":"就是這個兩個問題是不一樣的所以主總的問法他一定會呈現這樣都變成一國兩制因為我們都要了解缺工問題那這個數字差很大就算方法學不太一致但是這個數字差很大就是說差了三倍三四倍左右那我們都會擔心說勞動部有沒有在美化這個數字"},{"start":2450.485,"end":2465.487,"text":"所以缺工的問題可能會比我認為可能會比勞動部所想的很嚴重就用你們的方法去瞭解市委員我們其實並不是說美化數字而是說要精準掌握因為有的時候那就要跟主計總署討論一下"},{"start":2467.029,"end":2470.855,"text":"所以我們其實也是想要跟組長來會商這個調查方法的問題謝謝部長那我們看一下缺工的理由部長你自己曾經說過缺工當然不等於低薪這基本上我可以理解因為缺工原因太多了"},{"start":2482.691,"end":2509.97,"text":"但是我們必須承認第一星的行業一定缺工因為前次有這個執行事由委員詢問部長說您認為第一星的標準是什麼那你回答了一個31K嘛這個大家現在都記得了那我們來看看右邊右邊這個數字就是現在五大缺工行業的薪資除了醫療服務業它的中位數是42000是12K稍微好一些但是批發零售業薪資中位數是37351只比那個整全體的行業的那個中位數多11塊錢"},{"start":2511.511,"end":2513.193,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況"},{"start":2528.946,"end":2543.161,"text":"是啊我的意思說缺工不能等於低薪啦我反對就是說因為這個東西還有很多其他因素我了解但是低薪確實是一個一個問題因為過去我在新聞上看到有一些產業他們會說我們寄出高薪啦但是找不到人所以這個說法我我們"},{"start":2547.145,"end":2548.747,"text":"主總的調查也反映國人為什麼找不到工作是待遇太低"},{"start":2567.905,"end":2595.393,"text":"大概占60%的因素所以這個確實是一個符合普遍認知啦就是低薪會造成缺工對可是這個缺工的是因為廠商都不願意提高顧主不願意提高薪水所以大家就不願意去從事這是一個惡性循環所以我說對這個就是說我們這個還是要有對策啊缺工的對策之一是希望薪資提高"},{"start":2596.033,"end":2616.407,"text":"然後又發國人出來工作的意願就是說你們對於缺工的這個行業有一所謂就業獎勵計畫那主要是鼓勵失業者盡量能夠到缺工的那個行業裡面去求職這個是一個最好的狀況那目前對於製造業、營建工程業住宿餐飲業甚至醫療服務業看起來都有這個獎勵可是請部長看這個數字"},{"start":2619.269,"end":2639.248,"text":"目前看起來效果有限,為什麼我們這樣講呢?尤其製造業跟醫療社會服務業,你看你越讓他急,他數字越來越嚴重,就是他的缺工數是一直在增加的,所以這個就業獎勵計畫那個效果沒有呈現,還在惡化,所以是不是只靠補助?"},{"start":2640.29,"end":2662.597,"text":"有用嗎?是不是該去調查我認為可以調查年輕人他就業他找工作的時候他在意的點是什麼?除了薪水那是不是還有生活品質休假天數啦時數啦或是職場環境等等是不是勞動部要從比較多方面的方向去著手?你看越補助就越民眾啊數字越難看啊"},{"start":2663.917,"end":2683.489,"text":"不過委員就是這個就業獎勵像莊高麟在跟婦女方面是非常有幫助欸對那麼可能青年方面的績效比較小這確實這我們來檢討好嗎好如果說有一些世俗群是有幫忙的那還是要再做檢討一種的數字看起來就是傻逼"},{"start":2684.489,"end":2701.336,"text":"沒有用啊﹖撒幣沒看到效果那像部長在反映這件事之前許部長的時候我也跟他提過這樣的事情成大醫院曾經多次發生這個壓榨護理師強迫他們加班拒絕加班的護理師就被調動職位有一位迄今還在冷凍庫"},{"start":2703.283,"end":2715.011,"text":"當他們向勞工局反映的時候又變成黑名單囉這個新聞好多次了我最近又收到申請成大護理師向我反映那他們要上系統去填寫加班經費的時候系統會顯示經費不足然後直接鎖起來連申請加班都沒辦法你覺得這樣合情合理嗎"},{"start":2725.614,"end":2738.663,"text":"我請我署長當然不合理當然不合理這是成功大學附設醫院成功大學附設醫院他已經進入前五大收入最高的醫院大概一年有17多億的營養院他們這樣對待護理師嗎"},{"start":2741.687,"end":2744.85,"text":"我要再談兩點,等一下勞動部說清楚每次護理師鼓起勇氣向臺南勞工局檢舉的時候勞檢的前幾天突然這個系統又修復了又可以上去填加班費根據勞動檢查法基本上勞檢是不能夠事先通知的"},{"start":2760.523,"end":2774.029,"text":"但是這樣做法好像已經不止一次了所以我們就會懷疑是不是內神通外鬼啊是不是說那個台南勞工局他就事先通知院方說好我們現在去勞檢了所以你所有系統都要恢復正常這樣子的做法這個"},{"start":2775.615,"end":2788.781,"text":"已經好多次了這個我們有檢查處分過 台南市勞工局檢查處分 這個處分是地方衛生市勞工局但是你們要去看處分罰錢多少錢 罰錢多少錢 署長請說你罰多少錢"},{"start":2794.267,"end":2813.613,"text":"兩萬塊啦跟委員報告齁 這個陳艾醫院確實是臺灣市政府勞工局的一個首要的對象之一因為他們最近幾年的勞資爭議跟申訴案就是一直都有所以我們對檢查當然一定是不會通知檢查 第一個你一定要守住 然後申訴案的話我們會依照 第二個你為什麼罰兩萬塊呢 我想你在這邊的年資比那個何部長還深嘛 你應該了解 罰兩萬塊像話嗎 一個一年有十多億的"},{"start":2822.975,"end":2826.056,"text":"謝謝陳昭志委員的發言謝謝部長的回應下一位我們請林月琴的委員發言"},{"start":2856.737,"end":2858.658,"text":"113年我們的缺工人數到了6.6萬人"},{"start":2874.468,"end":2898.91,"text":"那同期失業的人口也大概41萬人了那依數據來看的話這兩個數據對起來有點特別就待業人數大於需求人數一直在講缺工可是事實上需求蠻高的差了那個6.2倍所以特別是缺工最嚴重的事實上是製造業跟批發零售業那這兩個產業的特性技術背景"},{"start":2899.31,"end":2917.53,"text":"不同概念講說中間的人事實上就是比較缺可是問題是我們需求的人要工作的也蠻多的所以勞動部就業服務的做法相較於現在自己有引發人才的資源中心主動出擊的做法"},{"start":2918.371,"end":2934.535,"text":"看起來事實上比較被動的所以本席之一勞動部使用的求職手段到底有沒有接地氣你們了解各年凌晨獲得求職資訊的習慣嗎為什麼這樣問因為我從教育部的研究可以看出來"},{"start":2935.155,"end":2935.516,"text":"我請署長答覆"},{"start":2956.65,"end":2982.959,"text":"跟委員報告青年求職這個確實它有它的一個習性第一個就是說網路的求財這個資訊其實他們在運用上確實會比較偏多那很多透過人力銀行但是我們在臺灣就業通的這個服務其實有人力銀行沒有辦法做到因為我們是結合線下像職業訓練創業輔導跟一些相關的一些實體諮詢這個部分其實是我們目前在就業通以外我們有銜接外部的資源"},{"start":2983.439,"end":2988.243,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":3006.796,"end":3031.537,"text":"你剛剛講說你沒有其他連結可是還是效果不彰而且求職成功率更低只有25.33所以感覺上看起來從數據來看求職者是不愛用的所以政府的這種公共就業服務資源效果不好民眾如果不愛用的話那想問這持續這樣下滑的趨勢來看的話有沒有什麼"},{"start":3032.137,"end":3049.037,"text":"平井可以突破也就是說我剛剛有提過就是說你們的銀髮人才就業服務在新北市雙河地區去主動主動找職缺的做法然後而且勞動部是不是可以主動下鄉到全國的368個鄉鎮招商徵才"},{"start":3052.08,"end":3067.237,"text":"然後要嘛就是你要握住人力找廠商要嘛就是像是握住廠商找人力再媒合起來來完成這個聘戶關係那話被動為主動我不知道勞動部部長對這個看法是"},{"start":3068.297,"end":3097.199,"text":"好當然委員這個建議非常好我想我們需要更綿密的去到基層然後直接去掌握這雙邊的這樣子的一個因為你們已經有一個成功經驗了為什麼不是去擴散然後只等著被動的一個平台讓人家上門來找這是非常好的model是把業主找出來把這些他們的需求找出來之後再去做搭配我覺得這會是比較好的"},{"start":3097.839,"end":3123.281,"text":"那缺工有沒有去想過非勞動的人力是不是你要主要的來的對象因為最根究底少子高齡化本來這樣的趨勢下缺工就是一種常態了所以整個就業服務你應該是更積極啊所以我說是不是要去盤點我們的有些閒置的勞動力那比如說就學他可能"},{"start":3123.821,"end":3123.861,"text":"獲得獎金"},{"start":3139.104,"end":3158.439,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":3158.679,"end":3179.573,"text":"沒辦法撐住我們現在的需求所以閒置人力我現在用兩個觀念來談第一個就是是不是針對於我們現在有一些移工在轉換雇主許可的移工平均一個月大概看你的數據從你們勞動部要到的是新增4500人然後轉換期間受臨時安置的大概是30人"},{"start":3183.656,"end":3212.154,"text":"那未接受政府安置的人就有僱主﹖或者是仲介代替僱主來安置﹖安置期間是不可以工作的所以那移工只要一天未能順利轉出的話你不管事實上政府還是僱主你都要花成本結果這個人空在那邊你沒有善加運用這些勞動力所以想問一下部長說當下有多少的移工正等待新僱主的承接有多少因為我們現在得到的數據只有9月份我請署長回答"},{"start":3214.871,"end":3243.17,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實現在對待轉換的移工大概目前我們的安置中心每年大概我們的安置人數大概將近都大概兩三千人所以這兩三千人是不是一個很好的你讓他盡快的可是有沒有那再問等待的時間有多久安置的時間有多久跟委員報告因為大部分的案件因為比較單純就只是勞資爭議一旦勞資爭議地方政府確認之後聘用關係終止我們就馬上協助轉換"},{"start":3245.672,"end":3263.351,"text":"這個馬上的時間還有有沒有等待一年或半年跟委員保一般半年一年是屬於刑事案件有時候是人身傷害一些相關的一些刑事的訴訟因為必須要等到司法警察機關的一些確認這個會稍微久一點不過這個我們也會跟司法機關來充分的合作"},{"start":3263.931,"end":3282.398,"text":"可是這就是成本齁所以我覺得社會成本因為這個案子你們是要付費的嘛齁就是要付好那所以勞動部不應該因為這個牽涉到修法就是說你那個提前解約的你要讓他轉轉僱主轉業就是轉換行業我現在不允許"},{"start":3283.158,"end":3300.551,"text":"所以我們真的要去考慮一下否則的話又一直在講缺工可是我們就看到有些人力事實上是代用的狀態裡面而且你要付出成本因為這些安置期間你們是要付費的所以製造業跟社福業都在缺工所以這種"},{"start":3301.892,"end":3315.87,"text":"移工全域的產業不在少數所以這群接受等待安置的那都是你可能可以考慮的一些對象所以可不可以優先境內承接再境外招募利用境內的這集戰力來紓解"},{"start":3317.792,"end":3319.453,"text":"請勞動部一個月提出說明"},{"start":3347.632,"end":3370.429,"text":"不好意思再讓我一點時間現在目前我們的身心障礙者大概也是一個所謂的就業服務的孤兒為什麼這樣講我們大概15歲以上的身心障礙工作大概是25.4萬人比例大概21%其中接受政府就業推薦成功的大概28000人那佔25萬就業的大概只有12%所以"},{"start":3377.946,"end":3405.767,"text":"想問一下部長這邊因為經過職業推介的這28000人9月大多數還是去公務體系去工作是嗎因為我現在收到數據是這樣結果你們自己處理轉介反而結果進入到的還是比較以公務家體系為優先那而且這個只有占到12%還有很多事實上也在開發的人力"},{"start":3407.813,"end":3432.963,"text":"好 這個也請署長回答一下委員跟委員報告我們現在身心障礙我們大概依照他的情況大概有三種服務模式一般有PU性就業資金又跟一般性的就業大部分因為委員可能公報公部門確實有部分但其實到私部門其實還是很多因為很多私部門他必須要符合定額禁用所以他會尋求我們的協助推介這部分也在努力"},{"start":3433.223,"end":3460.854,"text":"可是你現在25萬的原來25萬的工作的一個身心障礙者看起來還是靠自己去找工作還是一樣就回來你們的這樣的就業服務事實上缺工可是你有沒有辦法幫雇主那需求我有要工作需求可是你也是沒辦法滿足我所以我們的身心障礙者工作促進政策已經推動幾十年了如果只有這樣成效真的是蠻弱的"},{"start":3461.734,"end":3486.456,"text":"所以最後就是希望你們盤點我們的閒置的勞動人力主動下鄉,剛剛部長已經有承諾就是說你可以發掘那個職缺用你們的在中永和辦的那樣子的一個方式我們的銀髮人才的資源中心這樣做法來促進雙方媒合,還有把我們的閒置人力能夠都帶回來充分就業,再麻煩部長"},{"start":3488.636,"end":3489.957,"text":"昨天其實我們觀光署對"},{"start":3515.933,"end":3531.113,"text":"好昨天我們觀光署有講到說他們本來啊今年希望可以達到1000萬的人次因為在疫情前我們是有到1200萬但希望今年可以衝到1000萬結果到昨天他們很悲觀的認為"},{"start":3532.655,"end":3554.787,"text":"達到750萬下修了他們的目標啊那這個是賴總統在競選的時候曾經講到的他希望部部有觀光他希望部部有觀光各地有觀光來發展觀光的主流化來搶救我國的觀光產業這個也是部長剛剛口頭報告的時候有講到我們很需要中階的人才"},{"start":3556.148,"end":3572.346,"text":"呃旅宿其中之一所以我也想請問您部部有觀光勞動部這邊可以做什麼呢因為這個昨天是一個蠻大的新聞所有相關產業的人都很關注當然旅宿觀光業喔"},{"start":3575.168,"end":3589.295,"text":"確實一直以來他們都在訴求這個問題昨天我在跟服務業的座談裡面旅宿觀光業他們也再度提出可是跟委員報告我們在這部分已經初步先開放橋外生中階人力"},{"start":3590.075,"end":3594.819,"text":"可以從事旅宿的房屋上禮拜你說司機也是在研擬橋外生其實還沒開始已經開放了已經有多少你們現在覺得可以有多少的進展關於司機還有旅宿業都想要一定知道其實政策才剛開始"},{"start":3612.074,"end":3633.053,"text":"就是還沒有統計的數據還沒有真正就是才剛通過有人來申請了嗎應該才剛通過而已禮數我們是8月開放那8月開放因為他關公署有一些相關的細節規定資格所以現在目前還在一個規劃期那已經開放那目前還在"},{"start":3634.274,"end":3655.611,"text":"一些宣導的過程目前還沒有來提出申請那至於剛剛委員提到我們其他開放的司機員還有一些客運貨運等等這個目前已經確定會開放那我們現在正在跟部會確認一些法制作業當中但是還沒開始申請司機這邊還沒開始不過你們已經確定開放了那除了這個旅宿業以外您覺得勞動部還可以在觀光產業上貢獻哪些事嗎"},{"start":3662.567,"end":3683.267,"text":"我們要先幫他解決這個勞動力匱乏的問題我們也鼓勵業者在中高齡跟婦女這方面應該要多多來利用包括我們的義後缺工改善方案其實就是為了觀光業合作的可是他們在媒合人力上那你的這個高齡跟婦女有什麼"},{"start":3684.528,"end":3690.21,"text":"獎勵的措施可以讓他們：他們除了我們原有的這種55plus婦女在就業獎勵以外觀光署也有給他們補助在這方面所以是兩個部會合起來補助他們對可是目前就用人力上擦牆人意這個方案所以這也牽涉到"},{"start":3706.036,"end":3721.733,"text":"這一個有沒有這一個期待跟就是說這個這個落差的問題啦對我們能提供的人力跟他能要使用的這樣的人力落差的問題這也是我們進一步要跟呂樹葉我們可以來跟他來再度來更精進來討論對"},{"start":3724.075,"end":3753.315,"text":"再來我想請教部長的是這是去年行政院八月通過的優化跨國勞動力聘僱管理制度他是一個一年期的專案這專案其實花蠻多錢的有五億多那您當時有三個項目覺得很重要所以把它列為專案的計劃第一個是流用中階技術人力要變多這剛剛您已經講了第二是針對失蹤不明比例過高的引進移工來台國外仲介公司辦理暫停"},{"start":3753.815,"end":3772.899,"text":"那第三呢是要服務顧主以及家事移工並提供入境移工的指引好但是我們到今年現在已經快要11月了吧我們你已經花掉了5億2997萬其中的2億3009萬所以其實你現在還剩下一半多的經費喔超過50%總共是56%的經費那你要我想知道你再來要怎麼做你是要兩個月大傻逼嗎"},{"start":3783.701,"end":3806.5,"text":"還是怎麼做?這個我可以請署長來回應一下跟委員報告,因為這個預算大部分是提供各部位在執行這個移工的評估管理的一些做法那因為他們有一些經費的核銷上的一個期程上每年大概都是這樣那年底前他們會大概整個核銷的進度都會完成執行率大概都可以提高到我們的相關的預算"},{"start":3807.389,"end":3815.708,"text":"所以你的意思是說其實他們只是因為核銷的進度比較慢所以你到12月其實你這個一年期的計畫就會結束了"},{"start":3818.355,"end":3837.846,"text":"對嗎這個我們這個其實是每年的例行在辦理的一些相關的工作可以那我們來看一下你的這個執行率吼第一個我覺得中階技術人力累積許可人數OK因為有達到你的KPI我記得你們本來是設定兩萬五嗎對那比較匪夷所思的地方就是"},{"start":3838.846,"end":3851.937,"text":"你針對逃逸比較多的仲介公司確保外國仲介品質是0%你一家都沒有一家都沒有抓到一家都沒有發現這樣是為什麼委員那個他有三家有三家被停權目前有三家被停權你講一下"},{"start":3860.459,"end":3873.179,"text":"委員報告這個規定我們實施之後我們就落實現在越南因為他因為失聯的問題我們大概有應該有3家已經被我們停選掉你的報告你要更新一下嗎是這個我們再更新"},{"start":3874.008,"end":3898.424,"text":"那我跟你補充一下數據齁我們去年的8月失聯移工是84,339人去年等於100位移工就有11.3位是失聯最新呢113年9月是88,881人所以我們一年多了快5000人逃逸的移工4500那你現在做了這個一年期的專案啊花了5億"},{"start":3900.151,"end":3927.609,"text":"花了5億你覺得你抓到3家外國仲介公司這個有符合你原本幫自己設定的KPI嗎?委員這一個部分應該主要是查緝的工作查緝收容事實上我們今年還要花9千萬吧給移民署讓他去收容擴大收容這一個逃逸移工數這個部分我們"},{"start":3928.951,"end":3943.805,"text":"對可是剛剛才你目標應該是希望他不要逃逸啊而不是做大收容委員其實我們現在比起疫情期間失聯率已經下降了現在才2%嘛對那之前疫情期間都是3到4%"},{"start":3945.206,"end":3967.607,"text":"之後我也希望可以看到你們這個一年期的專案的結案報告因為如果說你抓到了這三家結果他們逃逸的數目遠遠跟我們這一年的差距其實是很大的那就不太合理啊是吧不然我也想問你們是怎麼去追查到這三家的你們不是應該是救人數嗎"},{"start":3969.571,"end":3993.858,"text":"你們不是應該是定多少人數以上的國外仲介公司所以你們才會去找嗎對他是用人數來看的那你講的出來這三家你覺得他們佔了多少比例嗎我跟委員報告因為我們現在是每三個月就會去集合所有這個國外仲介那就是依照他的引進人數跟失聯人數有一個比例只要達到這樣的一個警戒值我們就予以停權這個比例是"},{"start":3995.419,"end":4022.147,"text":"那個比例大概我們是有一個估算是不是會後我們再提供給委員就有設定一個比例法令上明定謝謝之後我也很期待看到你們這個一年期專案的結案報告因為你們有三次查核還有最後一次還沒做對我還有兩分鐘好下一個因為這是上禮拜很多委員會在討論的大家在討論是不是應該要新增一些國定假日可以幫我播一下影片"},{"start":4026.435,"end":4033.896,"text":"這是吳斯亞委員的說法我也想知道我們勞動部部長的看法如何因為當然之前這才對嘛"},{"start":4057.817,"end":4079.289,"text":"我想問部長因為我知道您以前是勞工運動出身的但是後來您也在勞基法的修法的時候有一個特別的角色啦所以我想知道說因為現在這個很多人關注這個新聞我們是不是應該要增加我們的國定假日不管是幾天一天兩天三天或是七天不知道您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":4081.215,"end":4108.475,"text":"委員我想勞動部的立場在當時勞基法一例一休修法之後我們增加的休假日週休二日我們落實週休二日增加的這個休假日大概就是全年的總休假日是116天那麼當時為什麼會拿掉那7天國定假日是因為要一致化的問題"},{"start":4109.616,"end":4109.956,"text":"對但是我們可以再更進步了嗎現在又過了好幾年"},{"start":4134.096,"end":4159.656,"text":"所以這個之後本席還會在花時間跟您詳細的討論一下不過現在國際的趨勢這個國定假日加上特休日我們都是比別的亞洲國家差的不管是韓國或是日本或是新加坡新加坡的國定假日跟我們是一樣11 12天可是他們做滿三個月六個月他的特休日是比我們多很多的"},{"start":4160.296,"end":4179.056,"text":"那現在臺灣的工時也是OECD國家裡面第4高全世界第4高亞洲第二高那這個是一個趨勢所以我也想知道部長對於這樣子的趨勢的看法還是你覺得我們從勞基法修法至今可以不需要做調整"},{"start":4180.157,"end":4201.858,"text":"我想當時201616年的一例一休的修法那到今天目前為止我當時其實特休也都是增加的委員當時對出入職場的勞工甚至那特休六個月以上就增加到三天這也在全世界也是排名前面的這裡這裡對"},{"start":4206,"end":4222.328,"text":"我跟您報告一下這個是我們跟其他國家特休的比較在我們這邊人力銀行統計起來臺灣的勞工平均12到15個月就要換工作可是我們要工作滿一年才可以有7天"},{"start":4223.982,"end":4243.039,"text":"新加坡跟我們一樣老公只要工作3個月第一年就會有7天可是我們要工作到半年以上才可以日本的話只要出席總日數達到8成以上就可以10天的特休所以我不知道部長口中我們比較進步是跟哪一些國家來比這個我也想知道"},{"start":4244.588,"end":4260.506,"text":"嗯我在想我們出入職場的6個月以上每年就有3天的特休這個部分啦是跟其他國家比比較好當然相對也是算是前面的啦前段班好沒關係謝謝主席我們之後再來討論謝謝好謝謝曾經為委員發言那接下來請盧憲一委員發言"},{"start":4272.403,"end":4283.228,"text":"主席有請部長。呃,何部長。委員好。部長早。之前我有問過你一個問題,也就是說就針對112年民族就業的狀況調查,你有沒有跟我們委員會去討論?"},{"start":4292.297,"end":4312.258,"text":"我希望知道說你們是每個月有討論還是一季有一次還是半年有一次我想知道你們的頻率我們之間有平台對口不定期都有那就針對我們的結論我們上次講到我們原住民在25到54歲原住民族的勞參率比全體民眾低"},{"start":4314.44,"end":4329.425,"text":"第2個也就是我們的從事的工作有營建工程業製造業及住宿及餐飲業然後再看到我們的非典型工作高於非原住民地區那就針對這個問題我想問一下就是說現在職業再設計我們勞動部有補助10萬元"},{"start":4337.546,"end":4366.741,"text":"那就針對我們原住民族比較多的營建工程業、製造業及住宿產業有沒有相對應的有做這方面的設計?有我請署長來跟你解釋可以舉例嗎?其實原住民在目前植物袋的使用其實是跟我們一般都完全一樣因為我們目前植物袋就是基於他一些工作一些職能需要做一些改善所以大概主要就是在中高齡跟這個身心障礙者所以原住民如果符合這種情況之下其實是一體可以使用"},{"start":4367.321,"end":4381.077,"text":"可以嗎?可以適用那第二個就是說我們初次循職的青年他有個最高補助45000元那我想請問一下如果說我們原住民25我們要改善這個25到54歲比較低於全體國民的話你們這方面有沒有一個設計"},{"start":4386.403,"end":4398.199,"text":"看是不是也可以沿用這方面的一個經驗因為你這個只有到15到29歲可是我們原住民是29到54歲比較低你可以做這方面的一個修正或者說計劃嗎"},{"start":4401.07,"end":4401.991,"text":"好,我請署長回答好嗎?"},{"start":4426.661,"end":4443.729,"text":"那我想請問就是現在有一個就業服務法第12條主管機關的試業務需要如果說有些縣市他的人口打到2萬人以上可以設置公立就業服務機構那我想知道你們目前的設置的情形我也請署長回答"},{"start":4445.339,"end":4446.36,"text":"目前已經有6個縣市包含這一個"},{"start":4467.182,"end":4472.527,"text":"臺北、新北、還有桃園、台中、高雄、屏東6個縣市已經設了原住民專屬的社會福利據點。"},{"start":4482.978,"end":4501.024,"text":"跟我們主要就是請我們原住民的就業部員因為他有他的一個專屬性所以我們是請地方的優先是以原住民來提供這樣的服務那人力的補助大概依照我們目前的這個人力的大概就是業務輔導員大概3萬每個月都要3萬7左右以上"},{"start":4501.664,"end":4518.537,"text":"那我想請問哈就現在已經在錄用的就是同意這邊有寫同意補助3名業務督導員25名業務輔導員我想知道他怎麼禁用的是用考試還是用什麼基本上這個是由地方政府他們有一些人員的禁用的程序那目前大部分都是禁用原住民身份"},{"start":4518.928,"end":4543.865,"text":"我知道,可是我想知道他的經驗方式因為上次我們研究民主委員會被質疑他們的族群委員全部都是他們民進黨的黨工不然就是民進黨的公職人員沒有選上的然後變成族群委員我想知道這個現在這個業務督導員跟25名的輔導員他的經驗方式到最後一查又是他們競選的他們對他們有功勞的人"},{"start":4544.545,"end":4549.518,"text":"那我想說是不是有一個考試的平台還是經營的方式?你們可以有一個規範嗎?"},{"start":4553.571,"end":4578.499,"text":"我們會提醒地方政府因為地方政府用人的程序他有個人員的甄選希望是專業優先而不是用類似像另外的一種酬庸的方式你放心我們都是讓地方政府公平公正公開去處理的其實現在地方政府多數都是在野黨執政不是因為我在屏東 屏東是民進黨執政"},{"start":4579.719,"end":4601.277,"text":"你知道我們的趙服務員有些工作還是去幫收紅白包的而且是在那邊收禮台的他都是在做服務民進黨的事情好不好好謝謝好就針對移工來說我們希望因為我們常常跟移工的工作是性質是接近的所以我想說是不是有一個平台可以跟原民會溝通"},{"start":4603.179,"end":4621.137,"text":"跟人民會溝通移工嗎當然其實委員其實我們在開放移工的時候我們也會邀請人民會來跟我們跨國力勞動力政策諮詢小組一起討論的我的意思就是說我們的工作可能也會被移工搶走所以這個部分在原來上面"},{"start":4624.841,"end":4638.871,"text":"福利方面的移工一直我們都很謹慎就是這個因素我們有考慮原住民的這邊就業的問題是我想還有一個是我想知道是針對老化的這個過程裡面有沒有什麼一些新的想法"},{"start":4641.364,"end":4666.894,"text":"現在中高齡就業是我們主推的項目那麼我們也預計希望在每年增加10萬的中高齡勞動力人口這個是我們現在的工作目標我昨天看一些新聞有看到我們現在連炸雞丁都找不到人已經月薪到6萬之前都講說缺工是在傳統產業現在連服務業也缺工那你有沒有什麼對策"},{"start":4667.97,"end":4697.154,"text":"市委員我今天的報告就是也跟您就是希望跟委員會報告就是說事實上現在所謂的缺工是缺什麼樣的工我們要弄清楚那我們這次做的缺工統計呈現的就是說所謂服務業的缺工也是中階技術人力比較缺啦那中階技術人力他是要有一定技術能力的他也不是那種基層體力工缺所以在這方面我們會加強禁用中階技術的人才包括對本國"},{"start":4697.984,"end":4719.418,"text":"以及我們針對這個像橋外生這樣的中間技術的問題我先問一下就是關於廢棄物的處理的工作有沒有禁用移工的一個可能性有我們已經通過了9月的時候開放新增處理業等三個資源回收行業這樣的移工"},{"start":4719.918,"end":4722.179,"text":"謝謝盧憲一委員發言接下來請王育明委員發言"},{"start":4752.981,"end":4754.201,"text":"臺灣缺工問題嚴不嚴重?臺灣現在缺工的人數是多少?"},{"start":4778.14,"end":4793.554,"text":"在我的今年7月底就是今天發布給這個委員會的報告裡面我們現在的真正空缺6個月找不到人就是6.6萬人那我提供你另外一個數據就是我們現在開缺出來的數據臺灣缺工是超過24萬人這個也是統計報告這是主總的統計對"},{"start":4800.8,"end":4813.376,"text":"那你們的數據跟主計總署的數據落差非常的大 這個高達三倍之多 那我請問你如果媒體今天要報導說臺灣的缺工人數是多少 是24萬還是6.6萬"},{"start":4816.74,"end":4824.929,"text":"我必須澄清主總的詢問方式跟我們是不一樣的那我就問你嘛這個可能媒體會困擾啊如果今天媒體要下一個標說臺灣的缺工人數請問這個數字是要填24萬還是6.6萬"},{"start":4833.703,"end":4854.225,"text":"如果根據我勞動部的統計我會我會認為應該是6.6萬這比較精確我是指過去6個月真的那你要去跟主席總部說你的數據是錯了麻煩你依照我勞動部的6.6萬我們也要跟主總溝通這件事就是我們其實已經在跟他溝通就是因為他詢問的是職缺數"},{"start":4855.026,"end":4855.587,"text":"但是部長你知道嗎?從去年112年這個主計數的統計是23萬的缺工數"},{"start":4873.104,"end":4889.689,"text":"到現在第二季是超過24萬的缺工數這個趨勢根本就沒有改變如果按照部長剛剛的說法應該是會大幅的改善才對但是如果他有補足人不可能他現在開出來的缺工數還是達到24萬"},{"start":4891.65,"end":4914.972,"text":"我覺得這個是一個最根本的就是說政府的統計數據不能有兩個數字讓民眾搞不清楚那另外一個我要強調的是誠實的面對問題才能解決問題我可不可以就是再補充一下就是為什麼我會做這個調查這也是勞動部第一次自己做缺工統計調查因為我是避免誤判"},{"start":4916.073,"end":4917.953,"text":"所以你說全台灣真正找不到人的缺工的數據只有6.6萬"},{"start":4946.258,"end":4963.074,"text":"現在目前目前是6.6萬然後你是每一家企業去調查我們調查4000家企業那能代表全部嗎那當然它是有一個樣本數的限制啦那這樣子你這個6.6萬的代表性是什麼"},{"start":4964.599,"end":4965.299,"text":"是,我們是針對所有的行業,抽樣的"},{"start":4988.033,"end":4997.06,"text":"那你這個抽樣可以代表整個的群體嗎?可以推估嗎?是可以推估母體的所以你這個數據那如果按照你這個數據其實我們缺工沒有那麼嚴重啊?"},{"start":5001.804,"end":5025.62,"text":"事實上24萬跟6.6萬6.6萬也不少啦6.6萬也不少只是24萬是一個就是說它是比較定義不精確的數字這樣我會很難做決策好本席要求這個勞動部你們要做出一個檢討你們跟主席總署就是全台灣只需要一個真相跟一個數據我們不需要兩個數據到底台灣的缺工是24萬還是是你講的6.6萬你們兩個單位"},{"start":5029.443,"end":5047.244,"text":"可不可以在這個一個月之內把你們的統計數據就頂掉未來發布的臺灣的缺工數據不應該是勞動部講勞動部的主計處講主計處這樣可以嗎一個月之內你們整合出一個版本好不好另外一個我要檢視你們的專案的成效"},{"start":5047.805,"end":5074.584,"text":"就是你有一個役後改善缺工擴大就業方案你們從112年5月一直到今年的6月30日為止然後你們的事辦要投入10億促進2萬名的這個勞工就業但是這個你們提供的資料你們自己真正的合發人數才1078人如果占2萬人的裡面你的達成率大概是6%"},{"start":5075.845,"end":5104.992,"text":"就是這個部分成效其實很不好那這個部長可以告訴大家為什麼嗎你明明編了實役也要想要給大家要去改善這個役後的缺工的情況但是改善下來的結果特別是針對旅宿餐飲業那為什麼改善下來的成效這麼差是委員這個其實就是針對旅宿餐飲是他們現在缺工還是很嚴重啊你明明有方案啊那為什麼就是沒有辦法銜接上"},{"start":5107.221,"end":5116.721,"text":"對,因為這個你們檢討的結果是什麼?到底問題出在哪?我想業者的期待他們都希望更便宜"},{"start":5118.294,"end":5146.588,"text":"對可是對國人的就業期待都希望薪資要合理這個就是兩個之間永恆的拔河跟落差所以他們達不到你們的獎勵標準或是你的誘因不足他也不想來沒有我誘因足可是他不想開那個價錢請人啊他一直希望更便宜這就是為什麼那你們要怎麼檢討跟改善這就是我也要跟您報告我們有這個方案也沒有用業者還希望我開移工因為移工比這個更便宜"},{"start":5147.814,"end":5168.21,"text":"這就是我當今的困境可是我們能這麼做嗎是所以你的改善方案是什麼在中高齡跟婦女就業這是大宗我們在有1.4萬的中高齡跟婦女在這裡面在旅宿業裡對本期要了解的是你針對這個執行的成效不彰只有6%那請問勞動部你後續的因應"},{"start":5171.232,"end":5181.601,"text":"跟調整跟你的改善你的檢討到底是什麼我要來跟觀光署我們來跟交通部一起來會商我要求也是一個月這個要交你們的檢討報告還有一樣也是成效很差齁這個營建業產業缺工專案的成效喔這個你們推動這樣的一個專案結果有七成三根本不知道這個專案"},{"start":5195.232,"end":5197.074,"text":"8成根本沒有參與過這個的徵採活動你實際的核發數從110年到112年總共只有152人而且聽說已經停辦"},{"start":5208.287,"end":5231.956,"text":"委員這個什麼時候就結束了這個方案結束了就是成效不佳嘛結束了是是是阿所以去年112年我們開了12000的營建業移工所以你就是用移工來替代了就是說本國的部分沒有辦法了所以你就不要再推動了嘛對不對就是就是用移工替代了是好那"},{"start":5232.951,"end":5237.793,"text":"今天這個招委牌這樣的一個專案我想我們要討論的就是這些缺工的問題到底應該要怎麼改善那本期就要求剛剛我講的你疫後的這一個編了10億要找2萬人結果只有6%1000多人"},{"start":5249.799,"end":5268.473,"text":"這個專案他成效不佳那未來你的檢討跟因應跟調整會是什麼因為今天開這個專案我想主要就是針對缺工的問題要有所改善嘛那如果部長其實不同意再開放移工的話那就要轉向是如何去改善這個職場環境然後勞動部怎麼樣去調整你的獎勵措施然後從本"},{"start":5274.638,"end":5275.359,"text":"謝謝王育民委員接下來請邱振軍委員發言"},{"start":5308.503,"end":5310.051,"text":"主席好,我們一樣也請何部長請何部長"},{"start":5314.563,"end":5339.873,"text":"部長好,我想根據這個月的勞動統計的通報,截至7月,我們全國事業單位缺工數有6萬6千個,是這樣嗎?是,這是我部內的統計。我看了一次就是說,看了一下就是說,這第一次採用懸缺半年才列為缺工。對,這是我的利益。跟以往不太一樣。對對對。為什麼要這樣子?"},{"start":5341.987,"end":5362.603,"text":"是比較好看還是怎麼樣?是為了精確掌握缺工的真正的樣態也就是說他一個月沒有工作兩個月沒工作不代表失業了?這不是失業這是針對廠商全缺六個月的調查是針對廠商的調查那一兩三個月也不算啊?"},{"start":5363.727,"end":5383.592,"text":"對那不叫缺工所以現在是改變缺工的定義就對了以前不是這樣記嗎就是缺工就是在一般的過去像組總的調查他是調查說你當下缺不缺啦你今天缺不缺那可是事實上你可能馬上就可以補進來那是一個流動性的那如果兩三個月來為什麼要定在六個月"},{"start":5386.293,"end":5396.477,"text":"所以以後我個人是這樣覺得就不論是一個月還是六個月其實對我們業者來講他還是缺工還是缺工吧實際的數字希望大家還是要誠實一點好不好"},{"start":5402.49,"end":5416.616,"text":"委員我絕對誠實那我再問你明年最低的工資條幅已經訂了嘛就是最低工資月薪為28590元時薪漲至190元那不過但外界還認為說這沒有辦法解決缺工的問題反而會助長這個長缺工那部長知不知道這為什麼"},{"start":5429.703,"end":5446.809,"text":"這個其實我在最低工資調整的時候我有一再強調這是保障邊際勞工而不是解決缺工委員今天我的缺工調查你看一下這個表就是說我有計算過就是說同樣都是要勞建都有勞建勞保嘛"},{"start":5447.549,"end":5457.166,"text":"那領時薪者多兼幾份差每個月工作22天他每天工作8個小時他其實就可以領到33,440元"},{"start":5460.449,"end":5483.809,"text":"還有8天可以運用對照全時職位的月薪只有28,590元換算回來每個小時只有119元元少於時薪部長我想請問一下制定這樣的時薪計算是不是鼓勵大家都要去做時薪工作而不要做月薪"},{"start":5484.249,"end":5499.922,"text":"啊委員就是確實我們這次最低工資審議的時候也有委員在認為說時薪的那個條幅你這樣反而讓這個業者都找不到功能對那是因為有過去歷史的因素我們在過去很過去10年間啊你不要講說過去那你現在發現有問題是不是就要改"},{"start":5503.725,"end":5529.461,"text":"有,這裡是最低工資條幅已經都把它拉齊了有拉齊了,但算起來還是差很多啊甚至還比較低,我們的月薪條幅是4.8如果是你,你要領哪一種?我當然是領10薪啊對不對,我時間調配比較好調配嘛對不對這就是現在年輕人的心態難怪我們現在年輕人失業他那個數字都一直起不來啊而且你沒有辦法去解決真正的問題嘛"},{"start":5532.233,"end":5548.862,"text":"那我在請問部長你有沒有出去外面訂過這個去外面吃飯訂餐去別的餐廳吃飯當然是有吃有沒有看到餐廳裡面有時候明明就像現在座位很多但他就跟你說他沒辦法接就是為什麼你會這樣你知道嗎"},{"start":5551.708,"end":5575.865,"text":"就因為人力不足嘛 對不對請時薪然後後來就變成什麼我們常常看到現在餐廳現在都是機器人在跑對不對送餐的那為什麼這是業者他自己會轉變就是說你今天要減少失業率你這些問題都沒解決的時候那業者自然會想出他一個生存的辦法對不對但是這個時間久了"},{"start":5577.826,"end":5598.591,"text":"時間久了就會造成我們這個失業率居高不下因為到時候都是請機器人啊比較划得來嘛我請時薪的划不來對不對這真的所以我說這個缺工啊不是當然不等於是因為低薪的問題要對症下藥啦好不好對這個缺工的問題才有幫助"},{"start":5601.932,"end":5622.299,"text":"就是我一直覺得缺工也不能只靠移工來解決,像自動化也是一個很重要的因為有很多啦,就是說我們可能說製造業是改善環境嘛,增加我們移工數,其他服務業缺工也一樣那健保及社會工作也很缺人啦,那針對這個部分部長有什麼想法嗎?"},{"start":5623.174,"end":5644.286,"text":"市委員我們其實也是針對就是我在講的你剛才講到就是各行各業裡面像醫療保健我們現在就開了醫院互助讓橋外省中階技術人力也可以來從事就是這些我看到昨天商總有提個三項建議就是提引進移工擴大引進橋外生產"},{"start":5645.547,"end":5657.639,"text":"產學合作以及變形工時等方式來改善缺工那我想他要求我們呼籲說我們年底前給答案那部長什麼時候會有結論"},{"start":5659.284,"end":5683.883,"text":"委員其實他昨天這一些訴求我們部分都已經在處理而且事宜都已經在處理了像包括僑外生我們已經開放您也了解那麼我們甚至要進一步修僑外生的個人工作許可讓僑外生可以自由掌控服務業這個部分他還要培訓準備所以我希望說業者也希望我們這邊盡快給答案"},{"start":5684.503,"end":5703.343,"text":"您是指服務業移工嗎?服務業缺工的問題也是有不同層次我今天的報告的重點就是其實連服務業裡面缺的都是中階技術人力比較缺勞資雙方希望全國來開這個缺工的會議那部長什麼時候會開?"},{"start":5704.731,"end":5727.151,"text":"全國聚會會議不是我能開的那必須我如果有需要的話你相信政院報告了沒有這因為我們這個要看政院這邊的那你反映了沒有還是要先看日子要看黃曆看哪一天日子比較好這個對我想政院會有他全盤的考慮是"},{"start":5728.274,"end":5743.01,"text":"不是,這個有什麼全盤考慮的,這個本來就是缺工就是事實啊,要考慮什麼?該開的會該盡快解決的不是就馬上就要處理嗎?委員我們昨天是先請取我們服務業部門的這樣的朋友的意見啦,是,對。"},{"start":5746.813,"end":5768.145,"text":"臺灣未來9年會有378萬人要退休45個月出生率低於死亡率這種生不如死的狀況我發現15到20歲的青年失業率一直在創新高20歲到34歲的失業率也一直上升這個年齡層又是最有機會結婚生子的年齡"},{"start":5769.105,"end":5795.867,"text":"現在年輕人有錢都不太願意生小孩了。沒有工作更不用說。所以針對這個部分,勞動部這邊有沒有什麼因應的措施?您是指青年失業嗎?青年失業我們推了非常多的行政措施。包括投資青年就業方案。包括鼓勵青年的中階人力禁用。我們行政措施、獎勵措施非常的多。"},{"start":5797.308,"end":5799.209,"text":"謝謝邱政軍委員接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":5843.975,"end":5865.965,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝我請部長請何部長你們9月份在屏東離港有做一個徵才那廠商有提供了280個工作機會那部長還有署長到最後的媒合成功率是多少我寫署長回答好不好"},{"start":5872.84,"end":5899.758,"text":"委員因為這個我可能再進一步再瞭解再提好因為我看有一些大田啦科隆啦橋本生醫啦等等這些齁是他們提出來兩百多個職缺但是我看那個情緒都很假啦嗯然後三萬上下齁嗯那你看我現在要看的就是像大疆生醫齁是他也提結果是到底"},{"start":5900.859,"end":5919.81,"text":"有先講阿母啦是我們趕快來確認這一個媒合數字對提供給委員因為這個很重要啦這個不然的話你收職缺那麼多然後還有人找不到工作是自己的心態的問題本位的問題還是真的工作不適合他"},{"start":5921.506,"end":5946.864,"text":"我覺得齁其實就像您看到的多半薪資都偏低這個就是大問題啦那我們國人就是希望有合理薪資啦那你現在合理薪資到底是多少對這就是雙方之間的這個的落差所以這個一直在這部分我覺得落差挺大的這個也是當今缺工的主要原因啦是"},{"start":5947.932,"end":5970.201,"text":"我們原住民的朋友在山上每天都是由一個一個一個公投然後開著鄉行車就把他們的好朋友都帶到都會區有的是駕無幫的電無幫的有的是駕鐵的綁鐵的他們一天都可以拿到兩萬一天拿到兩千六"},{"start":5973.322,"end":5999.614,"text":"生疏會是2200那如果比較成熟3000塊都有是是是我們要請電話班的請不了一天2800找不到人然後他們都跑去台積電在高鐵旁邊的台積電台積電那邊一天是4500但是他們很嚴格都是要蓋安全帶什麼什麼就看"},{"start":6001.195,"end":6021.21,"text":"他不容許出什麼意外那他變成他在挑工啦他在挑工那我們這邊民間的如果要找模板工、鐵工就是要等他們有放假所以我是覺得欠人欠到土水的欠"},{"start":6024.773,"end":6034.939,"text":"每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。每天都會選擇。"},{"start":6042.843,"end":6048.428,"text":"委員您講的像這個營建業的部分我跟您報告去年開了一萬兩千人嘛到現在實際進來的只有七八千人實際進來喔那後來我們有去跟營建署檢討是為什麼"},{"start":6061.724,"end":6080.478,"text":"那原來就是說因為當時在訂那一個招聘許可的時候有一個一年的期限那營建署也把那個一年的期限比同製造業這樣來訂所以那就會導致他的空缺就懸在那裡一直不用所以其實"},{"start":6081.579,"end":6097.991,"text":"在營建院的移工還有七八千人可以補進來都還沒補這個就是您講的剛才就是營建工地的問題其實這部分也是一個大問題所以我們現在請營建署要趕快把那個等待期縮短趕快禁用讓他們進來這樣子所以勞動彈性化"},{"start":6102.475,"end":6120.37,"text":"職業技能深化跟轉弦這個是很重要那你們有在輔導嗎?譬如說你們的執訊所有在蓋空調給他們給他們科技及證照這樣他們也能修就比較多有有有這有在做吧?"},{"start":6121.15,"end":6146.385,"text":"有就是委員像冷凍空調確實很缺昨天服務業的這個工會也在講那麼可是就是說我們像中高齡跟婦女也有在關於他的部分工時我們都還有獎勵的還有植物再設計也都有獎勵其實中高齡跟婦女在這部分的那一個績效是不錯的就是我們的獎勵措施落實的績效可是比較不好的大概就是青年這一塊對是"},{"start":6148.226,"end":6167.872,"text":"那第二個就是像護理人力他現在一年進入職場差不多4到5千人但是這個都是20到24歲啦專畢業跟大學畢業然後考上進入職場一年差不多4千到5千很高興啦但對不起30到35歲每年離職的有4千到5千"},{"start":6173.121,"end":6198.601,"text":"所以剛才...剛才just make剛才哭哭啦那衛部發一個豪語說我們到2030年要補7萬人8萬人的護理我看那是胡說八道他沒有什麼配套然後啦配套又很低那人家搞不清現在的護理人員為什麼不進入主場"},{"start":6200.379,"end":6213.776,"text":"不僅是廚藏事務的原因,不是說你給他帶,這副律師在病房都很高了捏,那帶ICU的要不要更高啦,像我們ICU的副律師一年可以拿到90萬到100萬以上啦"},{"start":6217.054,"end":6227.143,"text":"不過那是醫院委員的經營理念是善待員工所以這個護理的職很薄你沒在插?不是沒在插我那個醫院副主已經開放讓喬外森可以做就是喬外森可以來當副主他們也可以接受訓練當照護員"},{"start":6243.794,"end":6258.6,"text":"趙副委員還不行也可以也可以我們一般要請到那個副總我們都希望他有趙副委員有有有可以有受訓還有科企現在考試是比試還有技能考都考現在也蠻嚴格的"},{"start":6260.08,"end":6287.513,"text":"所以我其實建議可以跟計職或護理學校這個應該就是建議業者就是我們醫院的經營者啦是不是可以跟護理學校這些計職學校大家把這一個就綁起來包括我們本土的或是橋外生現在中大型醫院都到學校去找人從比如說專科就從專二專三就開始綁了是是是是一個補他一萬塊的生活津貼對對對然後一年12萬然後"},{"start":6289.994,"end":6315.713,"text":"綁三年將來要服務三年服務三年是心碎交給喔還是只有拔那個拔那個三年這樣所以有點像公會生那種感覺半公會生所以醫療院所可以做的他們都很努力在做是我們也希望跟教育部來擴大這方面的那你勞動部這邊好像也沒什麼誘因你應該砸錢啊你錢那麼多你基金那麼多"},{"start":6318.035,"end":6333.788,"text":"醫療院所補一份你會給他補一份嗎?要不要?你是指那一個比如說像這個橋外生,本地生的,或者是橋外生的有點像棄作,種田的棄作,這個叫棄業嘛我們醫療院所借一萬,你也一萬給他"},{"start":6337.935,"end":6365.102,"text":"其實我們有一個雙軌計劃本來就是這個可以考慮啦這個真的可以考慮我們來研究好不好你綁不住啊然後30到35歲的你要離職的你也要用心啊這為什麼會離職我是不是要結婚之後要顧孩子啦衝生啦一直不來我跟你講現在的醫療是日清夜異我們在醫院上班的護理人員如果請個一年假請個半年請個一年甚至是要兩年兩年之後他要回來他會怕捏"},{"start":6366.946,"end":6376.335,"text":"會怕捏 因為他已經改了又改 改了幾個版本了 健保署什麼都沒辦法做 每天就在那裏不當不曬 現在來電腦看不到了 跟不上了 他要恐慌所以他要回來病房照顧病人在ICU 那更不用講了 他嚇壞了 所以這個一定要搞到這樣嗎 我就講健保署"},{"start":6391.585,"end":6410.33,"text":"幾乎每一季都在有新的新的怪招又來了所以醫療院所疲於奔命那這些護理人員最好是罐頭給他點一點罐頭的資訊讓他點是最好不然說你要叫他寫要叫他照顧病人要就是家屬的柔韌沒人打得掉"},{"start":6411.334,"end":6431.143,"text":"所以這個你要跟衛生部這邊好好來考量二度就業的婦女我們最care二度就業為什麼進不來為什麼不敢來是不是有歧視或者是你的職場對他不友善這個都很重要的事情所以你來看深入的"},{"start":6431.863,"end":6431.883,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":6460.025,"end":6480.822,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員那等一下在政策前委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘好我們請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席我們還是有請何部長"},{"start":6484.771,"end":6507.883,"text":"部長好部長好謝謝早上您提供的這些簡報的資料讓我們知道目前台灣缺工的狀況我們到底是缺勞工或者是缺低薪的勞工這個可能裡面有很多的內涵還可以持續的討論那早上很多委員也提供很多意見給部長這邊參考我就針對於即將到來的颱風"},{"start":6512.246,"end":6536.882,"text":"大家其實都蠻關心的到底颱風架要怎麼放對勞工朋友的權益勞動權有沒有受到什麼影響這部分也先來跟部長跟市長來請教一下其實我們期待的就是針對於這個勞工朋友當他碰到颱風的時候上一次三拓颱風的經驗會讓大家很擔心"},{"start":6539.784,"end":6558.258,"text":"到底怎麼樣精進我們這個天氣颱風這樣的天災對臺灣的影響的同時那針對於在出勤的時候勞工要不要出勤應該是以安全為索要這一部分部長其實也講得非常的清楚這是在9月30日的新聞稿"},{"start":6558.938,"end":6584.759,"text":"提供非常明確的一些期許或者是類似指引讓企業主或者是所有的勞動朋友有好的瞭解針對這部分應該怎麼樣來處理不過我們也知道其實公務人員碰到颱風當天如果沒有出錢的話依照規定可以不出錢的時候信奉是會照給這是目前我們知道這個公務人員有這樣的保障"},{"start":6586.7,"end":6611.099,"text":"勞動朋友如果沒有出勤的時候能不能夠比照類似的方法或者是研議盡量往這邊來有比較靠攏的機會這部分不知道部長目前有沒有一些想法或者是如何能夠讓勞動朋友在碰到颱風尤其是有安全考量之下有沒有這樣方面的勞動權的一些維護"},{"start":6612.139,"end":6633.529,"text":"是,二委員其實您看喔,就是陳文林所說我這只要颱風一來馬上就發新聞稿然後提醒僱主不宜扣當日薪資對,就是其實就是說我現在是沒這個要立法強制規定比較難可是我現在就是也是都暗示僱主這是指引啦"},{"start":6633.889,"end":6633.909,"text":" 是。"},{"start":6656.459,"end":6677.21,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6677.61,"end":6698.017,"text":"他覺得你應該來的而沒來這樣子啦是可是這也是我們整體縣市長們在決定放假的時候的決策是好那另外一個問題就是說當然颱風當天是可以比照類似的辦理沒問題可是如果是輪大夜班或者是三班制的話就有一些困擾"},{"start":6700.499,"end":6717.134,"text":"這大業怎麼辦?那在隔一天就是放假當天的隔一天早上如何能夠因應這部分齁其實也都有相當多的困難這個都可以很容易可以理解可以了解在規範上是有它困難的地方"},{"start":6717.814,"end":6732.321,"text":"那如果在這種比較極端或者是不是那麼可以掌握的情況之下那僱主如果要求出勤或者是要做一些因應的話那勞工可以依法來因應這樣的"},{"start":6735.113,"end":6750.483,"text":"臺風假的前一天或後一天碰到相對比較困難的情形之下那這邊不曉得部長這邊有沒有哪一些可以提供的指引或是可以提供的一些準則給僱主或是給勞動朋友們做一個參考"},{"start":6751.568,"end":6767.63,"text":"是我們其實也有建議就是說不建議啦這其實也是指引啦就是說你如果遇到這種輪班的你一定要去可是你又遇到那麼大的風雨對不對這個可以透過勞資協商"},{"start":6769.832,"end":6784.244,"text":"公會或者是勞資會議那當然如果沒有勞資會議的你至少是勞僱雙方要講嘛對那你如果沒有講的話就又一定要求你要來這勞工也是可以跟勞動局投訴的"},{"start":6786.646,"end":6802.087,"text":"所以如果說部裡面有出類似的職員的話那相對來講他們做勞資協商的時候就有一個我們來多宣導其實每次颱風一來我們都有宣導告訴他說颱風雨很大這你不可以隨便要求勞工一定要出勤"},{"start":6802.547,"end":6817.904,"text":"因為我們下面看到一個數據這個是透過我們行政院人事行政總署提供的一個資料過去20幾年來我們看到這個各個縣市因為所在的"},{"start":6818.985,"end":6819.005,"text":"移籃"},{"start":6837.901,"end":6863.749,"text":"他們這些企業主或是勞工朋友們碰到比較多的颱風下他們的營運模式這邊不曉得部長或是部裡面有沒有針對這樣的這些影響多去了解看看因為這個會制定到未來政策的部分可能會隨著這些不同地方去掌握了解的話也許對於部裡面制定相關的準則會有一些幫助"},{"start":6864.609,"end":6888.758,"text":"好,我們來研究看看,好嗎?是,好的,我們來研究看。好,那再過來的部分就是,即使我們經歷過一次非常嚴重的這些疫情,那以後我們也希望能夠改善這個缺工的狀況,所以就有一個擴大方案。那個擴大方案裡面,勞動部所需要掌握的職長就是去"},{"start":6889.338,"end":6917.705,"text":"做這個專案的徵才還有如何能夠去把信任的內容可以做得比較好那這在那個時候是在2023年就是去年的4月27號頒布了這個就業方案那這個就業方案執行到目前為止我們看到的就是要事辦一年投入10億元促進兩萬人就業當初定立的這個目標是這個樣子那其中有兩大的計畫"},{"start":6919.305,"end":6947.416,"text":"獎勵計劃一個就是缺工專案的就業一個是缺工專案的參訓獎勵計劃那我們看到的目前的成果部長可以參考一下在參訓的獎勵計劃的部分到目前為止其實執行的好像需要再加強那這個加強本身當然是繼續努力的同時那是不是當初在訂政策或者是執行內容是有需要麻煩部裡面再做檢討的"},{"start":6948.564,"end":6964.221,"text":"是委員我剛剛其實之前王玉敏委員也是問這個問題我也報告過就是顧主的期待跟勞工的期待之間的落差很大就是我們的尤其這個都是針對旅宿觀光業"},{"start":6965.282,"end":6985.802,"text":"是針對旅宿觀光業的缺工而去處理的那他們都希望要薪水要更低啦可是我們來這邊的勞工朋友他們對這樣的還都希望薪資要更合理一點啦所以這中間的落差很大那麼所以旅宿業他才會希望我們要開移工因為移工可以薪水更低"},{"start":6986.483,"end":7009.405,"text":"可是這也不是我們覺得合理的方向啦對所以這個就是我為什麼議會改善缺工擴大就業方案我要再來跟交通部好好的討論因為如果這個方案實在是也沒有很好的成效我們要怎麼來改進讓誘因更增加這是我們要來跟交通部一起共同努力的"},{"start":7010.457,"end":7032.511,"text":"麻煩部長可以再跟跨部會的這些研議讓政策落實可以有機會做得更好最後一部分就是今天的主題有關於我們如何針對於全國缺工尤其是這個全時的部分那其實昨天好像部長也出席了商總他們辦的這個相關的會議"},{"start":7036.233,"end":7056.504,"text":"什麼時候有機會來舉辦這種比較屬於全國性的跨部會性的這些缺工會議已經有沒有定了期程或者是成績會到哪裡那會預計有多少的部會的參與範圍那這部分各位部長也可以有一個簡單的說明"},{"start":7058.449,"end":7084.76,"text":"跟委員報告其實全國缺工會議並不是我這邊的想法跟規劃啦這當然是民間的期待啦這原來其實也是商總朋友們的期待不過因為昨天我們已經初步有聽取了商總的會員們包括這個各個服務業的各行各業的代表們的意見啦我想我們先來就這部分來好好的來探討跟處理"},{"start":7085.16,"end":7111.233,"text":"那麼至於是不是要有全國缺工會議這是行政院層級的事情對那麼也是有代院方的想法啦對這我目前我這邊沒有任何主動規劃的想法對了解所以如果有參與的話就麻煩部長能夠針對我們這個勞動的權益也能夠針對您的職長來多加以在會議當中可以跟各部會來討論是是是好那就謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":7113.975,"end":7119.039,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請徐巧欣委員發言謝謝主席那我們有請部長請何部長"},{"start":7136.557,"end":7157.66,"text":"部長好,那我今天要質詢的議題其實跟我自己本委員會的國防部有關那我也在國防部問過了但因為跟勞動部也有關所以我也要拿這個議題來跟你詢問那主要就是關於節日休假的這個問題其實我們可以看在國防部裡面我們看一下這個表格"},{"start":7158.66,"end":7183.314,"text":"國防部有分成軍職人員跟文職人員還有聘僱人員好那我們可以看一下就是他們現在就是有在放五一勞動節跟九三軍人節的你可以看到就是說呢因為九三軍人節是針對這個我們軍職人員能夠放的假那所以說軍職的國防部人員他當然他放的是九三軍人節的假他不放五一勞動節的假"},{"start":7184.855,"end":7213.642,"text":"那我們在文職人員的部分呢因為他不是屬於軍職他可能比方說他是內勤任務他可能是這個比如說秘書啊或者是說傳送公文啊等等他並不是軍人的身份可是因為我們的這個規定上面那比方說他這個假設他比如說我們問了有傳送專委科長針對監察院或立法院然後協助跑公文的這個是國防部的文職人員"},{"start":7214.662,"end":7233.275,"text":"那他本身並不具備軍職身份他不是軍人但他也可以放9393軍人節的假因為配合機關好配合機關這個我們也沒有意見哦因為我們覺得大家都工作很辛苦可以放假可是到我們約聘僱人員的時候就非常尷尬了約聘僱人員那個部長應該是屬於"},{"start":7237.477,"end":7263.026,"text":"勞基法規定對不對來我先看前一頁軍職人員跟文職人員他們都是屬於公務人員對吧對公務人員只是軍職他應該是有93軍人節的假可以放那文職人員他是因為配合機關所以才放的93軍人節的假因為他不是軍人對吧好但是聘僱人員他不一樣他是屬於勞基法所管理的我們看下一張"},{"start":7264.166,"end":7285.385,"text":"所以你看我特別走到這邊這個是國防部的公務人員出行的注意事項他說公務人員也就是我剛講文職的這一塊他是配合本部軍職人員所以才在軍人節放假的所以他不是軍人但他可以在軍人節放假是因為配合我們的這個公務人員的部分"},{"start":7285.945,"end":7311.947,"text":"但是我們在約聘僱人員的部分呢他只能在九三軍人節跟五一勞動節之間二選一所以我們回到上一章來看就是變成是說我們的約聘僱人員他們就比較辛苦因為呢他不應該是二選一因為呢他如果說我們是認為好比方說你看文職人員他是配合機關休假那約聘僱人員他也應該要能夠配合機關休假"},{"start":7312.608,"end":7327.285,"text":"但他同時他是勞工他也沒有像我們的公務人員有這麼多的相關保障所以照理來說我們希望爭取的就是說約聘僱人員他們可以同時按照我們的勞基法能夠放五一勞動節的勞基法的假期"},{"start":7327.825,"end":7349.758,"text":"那同時那是不是能夠配合九三軍人節的機關也能夠放假那又或者是他可以選一天我們看一下下一張我們的國軍聘僱人員的請休假規定喔他五一勞動節裡面寫說跟九三軍人節呢他只能擇一休假所以呢他會被變成是有強迫換假的這個情況出現喔"},{"start":7352.58,"end":7363.966,"text":"那所以說這個你今天五一勞動節跟九三軍人節二則已休我想要問一下勞動部的部長這個有沒有違反相關的勞基法的規定"},{"start":7365.787,"end":7390.225,"text":"沒有耶委員因為：請說明對他這個就是說他五一勞動節那他五一勞動節如果要上班的話那他需要提供額外的薪資嗎這些月聘僱人員他是勞基他不是公務人員唷他除非他同意換那他如果那天沒有放他那天如果有那個的話要不要提供薪資"},{"start":7391.7,"end":7420.148,"text":"要提供薪資那可是他那天沒有放假而去上班你懂嗎所以部長您懂我意思嗎就是說他五一勞動節跟九三軍人節是折一休假但他如果其實是在五一勞動節休假的話那是他對他如果沒有在五一勞動節休假的話應該他要有額外的薪資對不對可是在我們國防部的聘僱人員請假規定裡面是沒有給予額外薪資的因為他告訴你說你可以折一休假"},{"start":7421.71,"end":7449.129,"text":"所以這個情況我想要問一下勞動部要怎麼解決就是說我們能不能夠去跟國防部我已經跟國防部問過這個問題但他們感覺對於勞動條件因為這是屬於約聘僱不是屬於就是公職人員所以他們不是這麼清楚所以我今天才來帶這個問題來請教你說是不是能夠跟國防部這裡來協調就不要讓我們的約聘僱人員他五一沒有放到的時候他沒有得到他應該要有的勞動條件"},{"start":7450.47,"end":7478.425,"text":"是當然這個委員我來跟國防部來討論看看好因為我上次跟國防部談的時候他聽不太懂我的問題因為他們只知道就是說公務人員的部分怎麼處理在約聘僱的這個部分那最後我再強調一下我的訴求就是說呢我們希望就是當然最好啦九三軍人節配合機關休假五一勞動節因為他是約聘僱人員能夠休假那假設說他只能選一的話那五一他是因為他是他是"},{"start":7478.905,"end":7480.967,"text":"我們主動跟國防部關心一下"},{"start":7504.195,"end":7512.119,"text":"好謝謝徐巧欣委員接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在好那我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":7557.056,"end":7558.422,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8154.718,"end":8156.801,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請何部長請何部長"},{"start":8174.8,"end":8190.281,"text":"好部長好部長今天全時職位缺工的狀況我想臺灣這兩年缺工狀況確實大家各行各業都有感受到但是我看到勞動部今天的一個報告缺工數說只有多少6萬6千"},{"start":8192.183,"end":8212.976,"text":"這是我們自己部內的調查對這是會不會太美化數字了委員感覺好像各行各業大家都哀鴻遍野找不到人但是你在講6萬6千那你又講說我們全全台灣勞動人口有多少目前一千多萬一千不止吧沒有那麼多吧勞動人口"},{"start":8215.39,"end":8233.399,"text":"就你的缺工原因分析 對不對你的缺工原因分析到2070年我國工作年齡人口只剩696萬那平均少了18萬人換言之你這樣子的意思就是說現在勞動人口差不多700多萬嗎"},{"start":8234.66,"end":8244.713,"text":"是不是是啊那我現在講是說那我們既然朝委會排這個案件這個專案討論那我們的缺工到底實質的狀況是多少"},{"start":8245.953,"end":8263.864,"text":"委員我跟您報告這個主要是我們詢問的定義是你過去6個月這個職位一直空著真的找不到人主要是定義不一樣啦所以他得出來的數字會不一樣是啦那所以我們現在掌握勞動部掌握我們台灣現在缺工的人數"},{"start":8265.901,"end":8293.199,"text":"對,委員就是我自己的調查到7月底這個是正確的6個月找不到是6.6萬那我們大家需要的人數到底有多少你一定是先有缺口我們才先了解原因我們才能想方設法解決啊委員會內的調查就是6.6萬的缺口所以會不會太美化數字啊這不是美化數字6.6萬也不少的也是蠻大的也是蠻龐大的但是跟我們部長"},{"start":8295.1,"end":8318.343,"text":"本席如果說連一開始我們都沒有辦法推進的話我很難跟你實質討論欸因為實際上召委會排這個案件我覺得很好啊我們都關心啊我們現在只是想要找出什麼樣的問題來解決啊因為你今天給我們的部分除了媒合之前都在做以外我覺得看到比較創新的地方是可能外籍的引進移工的部分會更加的鬆綁"},{"start":8319.304,"end":8321.847,"text":"是是是所以你預計現在除了服務業以外啦主管機關送案可能都會放寬行業別來使用移工"},{"start":8338.288,"end":8366.296,"text":"甚至包括我之前在交通委員會有詢問過連公車駕駛大貨車駕駛可能都會開放是不是我們現在是先開放橋外生中階人力是的部分我們預計可能會開放多少橋外生橋外生其實沒有人數的限制只要他願意來這個我們都會歡迎的所以預計他是人才的概念是所以預計這樣子開放之後會補足多少的缺工的人力"},{"start":8366.687,"end":8391.267,"text":"你是指公車嗎是公車或者是說你們現在來做一個分配因為現在喬外生之前我們也講過喬外生來到臺灣能夠鬆綁那有多少因為現在公車業者的人力的不足駕駛人力的不足其實他以某種程度上他還不是說真的缺工的問題因為臺灣有大貨車跟大客車駕照的人數比現在實際服務的人數多"},{"start":8394.85,"end":8418.371,"text":"但很多人他有那個駕照但他不願意投入這個行業是因為因為勞動條件是啊所以你今天如果說即便是開放僑外生他可能開放了多少人他也不一定能夠投入這樣的行業嗎是沒錯接下來你們還要做其他的業別要做所謂的這個移工的一個開放那我們想要問到底這是不是真的能夠解決我們現在國內缺工的問題啊"},{"start":8419.144,"end":8446.791,"text":"委員這個就是我先跟您報告關於您剛才詢問的橋外生的部分會有多少空間現在留在臺灣的讀書的橋外生有一萬三千人一年那我們大概普遍留下來去年是七千那麼我們現在把配額全部打開希望一萬三千人都能留下來可是這個就是我們的業者要去創造條件把他們創造一個吸引他們留下來的條件這個就是最主要的問題了"},{"start":8447.931,"end":8469.408,"text":"對那麼所以我開了也要看我們雇主這邊的配合啦對這樣才有辦法有效的去吸引這一個海橋外生進來這樣是您提到重點我在比較線說來講因為不管是客運駕駛或者是說相關的大貨車的一個駕駛都應該要有相關的這個"},{"start":8471.123,"end":8487.204,"text":"的一個提升嗎?包括說的當然會覺得是說客運司機應該要取得駕照員能力業者提供薪資應該高於五萬塊以上然後甚至倉儲隨車助理要求要取得起重機駕照等執照等等嘛對不對那這一些的要求勒?"},{"start":8488.438,"end":8488.458,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":8516.423,"end":8545.033,"text":"本席這邊還是會再一次來要求啦就說相關勞動部我還是一樣回過頭來就說其實你今天講說缺工數計6.6萬是這說實在話這真的是跟我們現在行業大家的普遍的感覺這是有落差如果說你講是說我們台灣現在700萬的勞動人口結果只有缺工6.6萬那平均不到1%欸你等於是我們現在缺工不到1%但是你真的問各行各業真的是這樣子嗎"},{"start":8546.093,"end":8565.108,"text":"我說實在話大家每一個委員都已經聽得到每一個行業真的都是找不到工作那所以如果說沒有真的面對問題來解決問題的話我覺得用這種美化的數字確實感覺勞動部還是跟我們一般的民眾生活是不同的一個平清時空"},{"start":8566.113,"end":8567.174,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們部長請何部長"},{"start":8597.222,"end":8613.382,"text":"委員好部長早我想部長一定知道今年是龍年嘛那如果依照我們這個國人的習俗來講龍年大家都希望生個龍子但是部長知不知道我們今年的持續的新生兒還是一個下降的狀態"},{"start":8614.943,"end":8639.251,"text":"對就是顯然這個就表示說未來在勞動力的部分恐怕無法期待有太充足的所謂人力資源那麼我們湊過移工來協助這個部分大概已經成為了一個全球的趨勢了以我們現在國內15到29的勞工人口近10年大概就減少了16萬那麼言下之意這個缺工"},{"start":8639.831,"end":8645.717,"text":"恐怕它就是一個臺灣接下來必須要面臨的問題那麼本席今天在這裡就想要請問你才剛剛昨天出席了全國服務業缺工的會議那麼請問面對部長怎麼來看這個趨勢以及勞動部是不是有先未雨綢繆那麼在昨天的會議當中到底得到一個什麼樣的結論跟想法呢"},{"start":8660.888,"end":8681.425,"text":"是跟委員報告就是當然缺工是一個目前我們當今面臨的嚴峻的問題那麼服務業的朋友們他們反映的當然也反映了服務業的缺工的現況那主要其實我們大概歸納分析起來當然他的基層的那種體力工他是一塊"},{"start":8682.225,"end":8698.142,"text":"可是其實他的中階技術人員的缺乏也是佔其中的大概三分之一有所以其實這也吻合我們今天的統計調查啦就是我們現在其實最缺的是中階技術人力"},{"start":8699.042,"end":8724.638,"text":"而不是在那一種最基層的體力工那部分其實我們大概能開的大概已經都開放了所以如果這樣的話我們會強化引進中階技術人才尤其在我們本土的中階技術人力的培育包括產學訓的合作跟技職學生的這樣子的鼓勵還有包括我們引進外籍"},{"start":8725.538,"end":8753.859,"text":"中階技術人才包括橋外生甚至未來也許考慮進一步銜接技術移民這樣子的制度來做其實講到技術移民當然技術有非常多包括連語文可能也是一個技術那本席其實今天要跟部長來研究的這個題目就是說在外國的這個中階技術人才當中如何留下這些我們已經跟他有做配合比如說像本席來講我們這種"},{"start":8755.52,"end":8764.628,"text":"處於上有這個高堂那下有一些必須要照顧的這種中間三名字然後我們又是雙薪家庭的時候那麼進入家庭中協助我們做不論是看護或是照護甚至於幫傭都是非常重要的那麼"},{"start":8774.497,"end":8793.235,"text":"能夠跟在地的溝通或了解台灣的文化尤其重要那麼我們來看一下以現在日本或者是印度或日本或者是泰國或是其他鄰近的這些國家以這個我手上的資料來講日本他6月通過了育成就業的法案嘛"},{"start":8793.615,"end":8804.903,"text":"就是一定的移工進入到他們的國家之後一兩年他可能就甚至於他是可以永久取得簽證的延伸那韓國為了解決他們農業的問題2024年也增加開放給留學生的家屬6個月的短期簽證那加上韓國的工資日本的工資都比台灣高那麼像日韓"},{"start":8817.833,"end":8834.864,"text":"在跟我們搶工的時候我們如何來給予更多讓這些已經熟識台灣的環境然後可以在家中的輔助者我知道在總質詢的時候卓院長也說了有關於家庭幫庸這個部分他要放寬但是本席今天要談的問題不是放寬的問題而是"},{"start":8838.286,"end":8838.827,"text":"但是家庭幫庸沒有"},{"start":8858.365,"end":8862.647,"text":"了解但是本就覺得很奇怪啊為什麼家庭幫傭會被排除在家庭看護或機構看護之外他們所處理的問題其實不會比較簡單那同樣的他要進入家庭的時候尤其是他進入一個家庭裡面做幫傭的時候他了解這個家庭的需求"},{"start":8879.076,"end":8903.564,"text":"然後語文又可以適用那麼有沒有可能他可以跟機構看護或家庭看護一樣因為我知道啦2023年只有1891人2024也只有2171人人數不多可是他對於我們這種三明治家庭或者是職業婦女或雙薪家庭其實是非常重要的一個支柱那麼這個部分有沒有可能做一些檢討或改進又或者放寬"},{"start":8905.905,"end":8930.985,"text":"委員當時我們在移工流財久用方案其實曾經跟衛福部討論過關於家庭幫傭也讓他留用的問題不過那時候衛福部是反對主要是主管機關是衛福部那麼他是為了所謂育兒成長階段問題的考慮當然這跟他反對但是問題是他既然可以來這個家庭他可以來這個家庭但是時間到了反而不能"},{"start":8933.507,"end":8949.696,"text":"留用那這個部分沒關係如果是主管機關衛福部我會追因為我想部長你也了解嗎一個家庭當中今天一個家庭幫傭你說他幫了一段時間之後因為孩子長大就沒有需要了嗎"},{"start":8950.776,"end":8951.036,"text":"部長同意"},{"start":8978.803,"end":8983.508,"text":"同意同意我們來跟衛福部一起會商好嗎好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝林楚英委員接下來請陳庭菲委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長請何部長"},{"start":9004.854,"end":9026.92,"text":"部長好我想我們現在遇到最大的問題就是說一方面有人沒有投入然後一方面是有老闆請不到工那這當中到底為什麼會有這樣的一個差別這個所謂的一個學用落差的問題還是因為"},{"start":9029.65,"end":9029.73,"text":"是﹝有﹞"},{"start":9039.662,"end":9064.194,"text":"那到底是什麼原因?這是您講的都是原因學用落差就是一個很嚴重的問題學用落差然後還有勞動力我們年輕一輩的不願意進入然後如果有技術面的問題我們現在都缺技術面是這樣嗎好那重點是我們即將又有378萬的人要退休了"},{"start":9065.017,"end":9084.992,"text":"那這些如果退了之後其實很多技術人員說真的他們現在都被重聘回來為什麼要重聘回來沒有技術員可以去指導啊然後所有的公司或是工廠的一個延續性延續不下去嘛"},{"start":9085.836,"end":9112.327,"text":"那重點是好我們現在目前一些剛退休的我們還可以拼回來可是如果在10年後呢在10年後呢所以這個問題現在的缺工從工業面工業面缺工3600人這都是我們勞動部的資料喔工業就缺了3600人好你說我們的勞動力"},{"start":9114.38,"end":9121.305,"text":"比較辛苦的勞動力不願意進入到我們的工業那好我們看到服務業也缺了35600人連服務業喔也缺了35600人"},{"start":9128.243,"end":9149.296,"text":"所以這個問題已經到了你沒有去把它變成是一個上位各部會去討論的說真的很難解決已經很難解決了我們所看到的說現在目前失業率可能依照比例當中雖然我們現在總計是3.43%"},{"start":9153.138,"end":9175.943,"text":"可是我們看到一個區塊很大區塊就是15到24歲就是我們剛畢業的這個區塊那奇怪了剛畢業的這個區塊我們再看往前光服務業不要說工業啦工業你說因為有一些勞動然後有一些年輕人可能技術面沒有辦法可是光服務業"},{"start":9177.483,"end":9177.523,"text":"好,部長。"},{"start":9187.797,"end":9212.006,"text":"這怎麼辦是這就是委員在15到24歲11趴的這樣的失業率這代表一個學用落差真的很嚴重就是另外一個是新型態的平台經濟的勞動型態也吸引了很多年輕人所以讓他們也不願意去投入這種傳統的勞動領域甚至包括服務業都是"},{"start":9212.526,"end":9239.044,"text":"所以這那包服可是呢我們服務業的部門呢他又普遍低薪這也是一個大問題對那部長這怎麼辦這個我們都知道整個新型態服務的一些改變讓年輕人寧可進入到新型態的一個服務勞動然後不願意進入到這比較實質面實體面的一些服務勞動"},{"start":9241.005,"end":9259.92,"text":"我們就認為在這個區塊那怎麼辦因為平台總是有一些空間而已嘛並不是全部都可以進入到這裡當它飽和的時候還是要回歸到一個現實面那這怎麼辦我們現在就是要強化青年"},{"start":9262.121,"end":9281.117,"text":"這個包括他的執訓還有包括他的中階技術人力的培育因為長期以來說解決學用落差就是我們現在要也是要跟教育部經濟部一起來合作來處理的就是這個學訓用的整合要真的要趕快再強化對那我們部長這個問題大概從五六年前我們發現從一直講一直講講到現在"},{"start":9288.603,"end":9308.851,"text":"學用落差當時候最夯的就是博士去賣雞排那個當時候哇大家一片的震驚但是現在稀鬆平常現在是稀鬆平常所以我們反而一直在講不但沒有解決問題反而問題更大"},{"start":9311.345,"end":9328.121,"text":"那表示到底是我們的勞動部教育部我們相關的單單位沒有整合起來或是並沒有真正針對問題去做解決還是甚至我們這樣的一個平台我們不是固定都有開相關會議嗎有"},{"start":9330.003,"end":9349.862,"text":"我們有三部會的平台會議可是平安心講這真的要檢討就是這相關的學訓用整合計畫目前落實都不好對啊那為什麼落實不好部長你都會感覺落實不好了那為什麼會落實不好"},{"start":9351.764,"end":9371.235,"text":"這個問題明明就就部長我相信在五六年前那個新聞大家非常震驚說哇你看博士去賣雞排現在大家是覺得正常哇這是變成大家心態改變了不是政府改變了是大家內心深處的心態改變了這是有問題所以你看我們這個所謂跨部會的平台會議我們已經幾年了"},{"start":9383.382,"end":9409.3,"text":"幾年了?對啊,四五年了這個平台就是在當時候這個新聞出來大家覺得太嚴重了不是浪費我們整個教育資源而已是一個博士生欸一個博士所以我們認為說這四五年來不但沒有改變更加嚴重"},{"start":9411.547,"end":9429.277,"text":"部長怎麼辦在你們依照你們在第一線的這個勞動力的一個評估跟看法對委員跟委員報告其實就是產業的需求似乎在我們學訓用整合的這一個銜接上一直都有落差"},{"start":9430.097,"end":9456.764,"text":"就是你找了學生來可是呢企業在哪裡就是企業也未必願意來先把這些學生先可是部長你如果問教育部教育部就跟你講說有啊我們都有在做盤整啊然後我們也都有符合我們資訊我們技職學校都有在開課啊"},{"start":9458.364,"end":9478.515,"text":"問題就來了就是技職學校所開的課並不是現在產業所需要的那現在產業需要什麼你們是不是要彙整你們勞動部跟經濟部是這是我們現在要去彙整的重點你們要去彙整啊你們勞動部跟經濟部你們需求是什麼你們的要求是什麼"},{"start":9479.815,"end":9505.273,"text":"這樣才能真正在教育部的體系當中在執系或是在技職的一個系所裡面有他發揮的空間嘛對不對那這個到底什麼時候部長你可不可以給我們時間我每次如果沒有壓時間好像今天講完之後就不見了是不是這個檢討是不是可以一個月給我們知道說到底經濟部跟勞動部現在盤整出來"},{"start":9506.374,"end":9506.514,"text":"接下來請吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":9539.35,"end":9541.975,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請部長請何部長部長早安"},{"start":9550.322,"end":9571.987,"text":"今天剛好說有一個颱風馬上要過來嘛那今天早上已經那抗疫颱風已經說已經轉成強度颱風嘛那我想說因為也有氣象專家預估說接下來可能這兩天會可能會放颱風架會有這個狀況所以我想說因為這是一個大家很關心的議題啦所以我想跟部長就教一下這個部分"},{"start":9573.587,"end":9590.525,"text":"當然是說法律並沒有颱風架這個名詞嘛對不對這應該是這樣沒有錯啦所以這颱風架到底算不算架期這部長算不算架期啊不算架啊所以大家說的那個颱風架其實是一個天然災害發生就是那個"},{"start":9591.994,"end":9595.676,"text":"那我想請教一下地方首長他宣布停班停課地方首長的這個宣布的這個效力有約束民間企業的效力嗎"},{"start":9614.628,"end":9639.93,"text":"沒有欸他是約束機關跟學校對對所以呢就是簡單來說其實很多企業他跟著政府放這個假其實是體恤員工怕他上班危險嘛也就是其實這個要點我要強調這個要點因為他沒有到達法律的位階他是要點所以說對於企業也沒有什麼拘束力嘛那還有你剛剛所提到的其實這個所謂颱風假他不是假"},{"start":9641.271,"end":9655.076,"text":"他根本就不是一個休假概念所以沒有法制化的現狀會發生一個狀況就是說我這邊要大概整理一下第一個就是假設今天公務員在放颱風架我以公務員來說好了公務員在放颱風架的話"},{"start":9657.126,"end":9682.325,"text":"民間企業的人可能會遇到第一個老闆要正常上班像記者這邊很多記者就是這樣老闆會叫他正常上班那第二個呢老闆也可能跟他說那你就不要來上班了可是他就沒有錢當天就沒有錢那第三個就是如果是上班到中午下午放颱風架那也有可能像剛剛那兩個狀況一個是老闆叫你回去沒有錢另外一個是繼續叫你上班上到下班為止"},{"start":9683.266,"end":9707.756,"text":"那因為我們剛剛提到的那個是要點並沒有到法律位階所以勞動部這幾年我看到的對外的說法都是說希望僱主多多照顧跟體系員工宜多給錢宜不扣薪水或提供交通這個宜的意思我想說法律上面就是得嘛那得的意思就是可以要也可以不要所以到最後變成是"},{"start":9708.736,"end":9735.459,"text":"員工在賭運氣看會不會遇到好的老闆那像我知道像記者的他們的體系就是颱風架他還是要上班只是老闆可能會給他補修如果是公務員的話是你沒有上班颱風架放兩天三天他一樣也是領月薪他沒有受影響所以這個我們對於勞工是不是有一點點比較不公平既然颱風天不是"},{"start":9736.688,"end":9752.508,"text":"屬於國定假日那業主要求勞工上班而且沒有那個補假或加班費部長您知道這個嗎當然我們這個就是是我們指引就是勸部主不可以這麼做的"},{"start":9754.008,"end":9768.33,"text":"可是如果只是勸雇主的話對雇主沒有任何拘束力啊那其實委員現在的雇主多半真的都會都會給報告部長我們不能用多半"},{"start":9775.516,"end":9784.964,"text":"政府不是天使組成,人類也不是天使所組成的,所以很多時候做事情不可能像我們完美的思考那個方向去走,一定會有很多雇主"},{"start":9785.845,"end":9813.524,"text":"很難搞我自己以前學分時代打工也遇過很難搞的雇主好那我們看一下就是說其實台風天上班遇到的那個風險是蠻多的其實這個例子太多了我也不細說啦就台風天上班之後出狀況或是上班正常出勤下出狀況的人其實不少所以說這麼多年來政府尤其是我們的現在的執政黨一直說最保障勞工啊"},{"start":9814.244,"end":9833.985,"text":"那是不是說應該要把它從法制化的方向去走而不是留在要點?部裡面可不可以思考這個問題?就是你問那個員工是碰運氣嗎?部長?各位委員報告主要是考慮臺灣的產業特性我們那個中小企業實在太多了各行各業又太那個"},{"start":9834.705,"end":9861.906,"text":"所以你如果用法律其實世界各國也沒有說在用法律規範天災假或是颱風假這樣的東西所以它法制化有一定程度的就是說各國沒有潛力可援引第二個是我們在國內的民情適用上恐怕會有點自愛難寫您想想看連縣市首長放颱風假都會遇到很多抱怨更何況是邏輯法規規定"},{"start":9863.988,"end":9891.629,"text":"我跟部長報告一個點就是說本期這邊建議還是要朝向法治化的方式因為每一個員工他都是一個家庭我們應該保障每一個人真的公務員受盡了保障我幹了24年的公務員排工假放假有薪水照領沒有炒過一毛錢但是勞工很辛苦卻沒有這樣子的對待是不是政府可以把他朝向法治化的方向去走就像您說的大部分的老闆都會"},{"start":9892.93,"end":9893.95,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":9925.659,"end":9950.877,"text":"主席：在黨委員先進：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們何部長請何部長我也好部長好今天我們大家都關心我們的缺工都說全職的缺工對不對好我們看一個部長你知道嗎那個我們不只是勞碌命而且我們有一個部分的特別要跟你講"},{"start":9953.021,"end":9979.819,"text":"我們的部分工時的勞動參與比率很低其實部長你對於全職參與勞動跟部分工時參與勞動你認為有什麼差別其實委員臺灣的所謂什麼總工時場是確實我們不用問總工時場我想部分工時對我們部分工時參與率是比較低的好那你覺得這是僱主不願意給全職工作還是勞工不想做全職的工作"},{"start":9980.846,"end":9998.974,"text":"我們部分工時的參與率低是其實是正面的耶因為其實等於是說等等等等這句話我有一個保留我先問你我沒有說哪正面或負面我說部分工時參與率低是因為僱主不願意提供全職工作還是勞工不想做全職工作"},{"start":10001.041,"end":10025.504,"text":"部分工時差異率低是意味著部份工時的職缺少是老闆不想顧全職還是員工不想做全職我的花了30秒了那聽懂了齁好來講啦我再講更直白一點啦以前人都是結婚啦但是現在說結婚率下降為什麼因為同居就好了啊"},{"start":10026.468,"end":10049.895,"text":"前景國家都這樣子啊可以要結婚啊因為結婚就彼此的什麼權利義務啊同居呢就有同居的一個幸福但是可能彼此沒有約束我用這個方式來說明過去的勞工希望跟僱主有一個從一而終就是包括我們日本的永聘制對不對但是終身僱用制但是現在呢好像勞工對於"},{"start":10051.505,"end":10079.843,"text":"只被一個僱主綁住他所有的時間他不能去做其他兼差可能不一樣像現在副本人都很流行你覺得這個觀念是不是有些不一樣了是當然這個確實清新的勞動的彈性形態這個是現在年輕人而且勞動部現在推銀髮族中高齡就業促進也希望能夠多製造一些部分工時的職缺讓這些中高齡者來參與對不對是不是這樣所以我們說嘛"},{"start":10081.684,"end":10108.417,"text":"產業是不是一定要全職勞工?勞動部要做一個思考就是要問我們勞工需要什麼樣的職缺勞工有的需要全職的職缺有的需要他喜歡部分工時的職缺是不是這樣?是所以我們來勞動部與其問老闆說你需要全職工嗎?我們是否反過來問勞工你希望什麼樣的彈性的工作方式你同不同意?"},{"start":10108.737,"end":10132.137,"text":"同意同意,因為我們在中高齡的這個就業途徑上就是採用這個方式所以其實不只中高齡啊,很多的年輕的不同世代勞動力他也有,他可能一天他寧可把8小時用來兼三份差他不想幫一個老闆做8個小時的工,你覺得有沒有可能?有可能嘛,所以現在的整個工作的概念是認為說過去勞工必要有一個雇主"},{"start":10132.938,"end":10133.258,"text":"其實這是一個趨勢啦"},{"start":10158.86,"end":10185.907,"text":"好 所以這是個趨勢您說對了所以因為這樣的趨勢我們應該先做一個調查瞭解現在勞動力勞工他需求的方向然後呢我們再回過來看產業的需求我前不久在交通部問過客運業啊他們現在缺司機願意做全天8小時的全職的駕駛呢都是中高齡所以不得不交通部延長到68歲那新的年輕的人呢他不想要一天綁8小時"},{"start":10187.347,"end":10210.08,"text":"因此他們就說那我們在尖峰時間我們會顧那些已經退休的回來做兩個小時或者年輕人他就來做兩個小時你支持產業這樣的做法嗎就是他用這個方式來應付他尖峰時間客運業他的尖峰時間需要量很大但是他為了尖峰時間的需求他僱用一堆人不見得顧得住"},{"start":10211.36,"end":10233.97,"text":"所以我問一下客運業的聘僱臨時人力有沒有法令上的限制我記得那時候你好像告訴我說沒有沒有沒有很好所以我們就要思考那如果沒有法令上的限制那為什麼僱主跟勞工他們沒有辦法去媒合達成說我想打工的就來打工僱主說你想打工的我就有這個監察的工作給你我們來看一下下一個"},{"start":10235.394,"end":10252.702,"text":"農業需要什麼樣的勞動力?現在農業缺工對不對?有季節性的缺工有常態性的缺工但是呢我們看到一個新聞啊他說你請外籍移工啊寫來做阿公啊為什麼?我農忙的時候我請了外籍移工但是我農協的時候他在做阿公啊你有沒有了解到這個情況?"},{"start":10253.632,"end":10271.653,"text":"我知道所以為什麼農業部門會有這個情況呢因為農業生產跟工業生產不同工業生產機器一開24小時你全天一週七天一個月30天一年360天你要隨時都可以農業要看老天爺啊是"},{"start":10272.233,"end":10272.933,"text":"你覺得可不可以?"},{"start":10295.492,"end":10295.972,"text":"其實農閒上學農忙下田"},{"start":10320.865,"end":10328.259,"text":"這裡面就是叫教育部、農業部跟勞動部共同來設計不然的話你知道現在農裡面雇用的"},{"start":10329.864,"end":10355.762,"text":"得到的額外補充勞動力都是產工都是移工他們是8點上班5點下班中間還出來4點就來打工然後8點來打工這個對外籍移工賺錢好但是對他的身體勞動權不好所以我們認為與其用外籍勞工不如用外籍的什麼農學工過去我們再往下看有一種叫教育部的做法你看透過PD勞動力我們客運車的業者可以做這樣的事情那但是他會缺乏什麼保障"},{"start":10356.837,"end":10384.426,"text":"他會缺乏他可能職災的保障有沒有啊他的一個退休準備的保障有沒有啊這個勞動部要去幫忙享受啊包括你現在在支持的外送平台很多外送平台他不想要跟僱主成為全職的勞僱關係但他也不能接受這個承攬關係僱主完全對他沒有義務那有沒有可能在這兩者之間我們找出一個類勞工的方式來保障這些兼職人員部分工時人員他跟僱主之間的關係而且他們彼此的權益可以這樣嗎"},{"start":10385.643,"end":10415.009,"text":"我們來研究好嗎好那最後呢我要告訴你來你要看往下往前跳最後一個你好往前往前不是學校的學工學校的學助往下一頁這個就是教育部那時候出來的大概在8年前那些大學的研究生他有領錢所以呢學校就請他工作研究室的助理會幫學校做行政工作後來教育部呢有研究生反映啊我領你6000領你8000我是研究生碩博生結果呢我的勞動權利在哪裡"},{"start":10416.029,"end":10434.265,"text":"勞動部那時候出面了就有一個專科以上學校兼任助理勞動權益保障的指導原則這是勞動部出面的有沒有還沒印象在座的官員有嘛對不對所以那時候分成什麼分成兩種一種叫學習型的一種叫行政型的學習型的他的參與是基於學習的目的"},{"start":10434.966,"end":10447.426,"text":"但是如果是行政型的不是學習型的他就比較強調他勞動的部分給予他保障學校對這兩種型的助理學生助理是給予不同的條件有沒有印象"},{"start":10449.377,"end":10450.037,"text":"最後一題"},{"start":10477.072,"end":10479.934,"text":"謝謝總嘉賓委員接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":10505.615,"end":10508.753,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊一發言 邀請部長請何部長"},{"start":10513.13,"end":10541.117,"text":"委員好部長好我們來針對於缺工的問題來討論因為我們看到未來9年那麼我們所迎來的是378萬人的這個退休那也是史上到目前為止最大的退休潮的逼近那又加上少子化那導致我們整個在製造交通營建服務跟醫療等等的各行業普遍的在缺工尤其特別是3K"},{"start":10542.037,"end":10559.99,"text":"所謂的3K是什麼危險辛苦骯髒這3K的辛苦特定製造製成的產業缺工特別特別的嚴重那所以呢我們又看到你的統計在11年來15到29歲的青年勞動力人口是減少了16萬人而國防會推估我們臺灣勞動力人口缺口會在2030年會達到"},{"start":10569.336,"end":10587.714,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下他不僅會影響到我們整個的就業市場影響到經濟的一個衝擊所以本期要在這邊請教部長賴清德總統在2017年的時候他擔任行政院長有一句口號讓我很很撼動他曾經提出了流財攬財還有什麼"},{"start":10590.296,"end":10590.496,"text":"請做說明"},{"start":10615.604,"end":10634.65,"text":"市委員我想今天的報告案我們也呈現出說在這裡面其實最缺的是中階技術人力對那怎麼辦你怎麼因應委員我們現在在本土的中階技術人才培育上面也希望能夠強化學訓用的跟教育部經濟部一起來整合這三方的這樣子的"},{"start":10639.332,"end":10641.854,"text":"你剛才所做的回答我相信如果以目前你現在所做的書面資料跟回答"},{"start":10656.966,"end":10674.367,"text":"你的答案還是一樣一個字就是山越來越低越來越低他不是流他不是藍他不是玉所以我希望你還是針對目前我們所面臨到的這一切困境你再去做一個精準的一個盤點到底要怎麼做"},{"start":10674.887,"end":10692.039,"text":"好不好?到底要怎麼做?因為你剛剛針對本土的我們目前就是這樣做數字就是不好看那你剛剛要提到的一個外籍的部分我繼續來跟你討論因為我緊張這一個外籍的你如果所有的政策都依照這樣子那我們台灣的國力要怎麼辦?"},{"start":10692.819,"end":10710.759,"text":"待會我們繼續來討論那所以我用你實質目前在做的我們在去年因應旅宿還有餐飲這都最堅強的在這樣的情況之下你推出了義後改善缺工擴大就業方案對不對你推出了從勞工端"},{"start":10711.46,"end":10730.35,"text":"及顧主端來找手協助受疫情衝擊的造成疫後缺工的產業來補食人力。到目前為止,到今年6月底,你協助了2900人來就業。所以本席要在這邊請教,你勞動部對這個數字你滿意嗎?"},{"start":10733.711,"end":10760.694,"text":"這當然是偏低偏低嘛那為什麼會偏低是政策錯誤還是執行無力還是社會面向不夠還是怎麼樣因為既然連你自己推出的政策你都認為是偏低那我要再繼續跟你討論因為你願意承認你這個政策的執行率是不到位的所以在這樣的情況之下你要如何的來提高就業率你針對於缺工你還有什麼方案"},{"start":10761.394,"end":10777.829,"text":"你現在所提出在做的你認為是偏低那怎麼辦專案來做到偏低那怎麼辦呢我以為你是只針對旅宿餐廳對對對也是因為這樣所以我們又擴大開放的橋外生可以來從事旅宿業的中階工作請你在精準方案好不好"},{"start":10778.73,"end":10793.858,"text":"你答案還是下一題本席要跟你討論的請你再就針對剛才本席所提出你專案的債輔導只有2900元是偏低的請你再去精準方案如果你的政策方案是不對檔的"},{"start":10795.559,"end":10815.11,"text":"對不對是不正確的那你應該去從內部去討論而不是都只有給我一個答案我們從外籍工因為你第一個提問我本席第一個提問跟第二個提問你都是給我回答這個所以我會中斷你的回答請你去精準精準你的方案告訴本席好不好"},{"start":10818.753,"end":10834.609,"text":"第3個我實質跟你討論從2024年9月份我們的失聯外籍移工的部分來台的部分已經失聯的80萬人那你比去年同期你增加了5萬人也是歷史新高近7年來最高"},{"start":10835.47,"end":10861.213,"text":"那在這樣的情況下你告訴我開放了資深移工轉任中階技術人力你開放了橋外剛才你回答橋外生轉任中階人力的業別國際勞動力勢必你不斷的不斷的在增加所以包括現在經濟部長告訴我們你勞動部最近要持續放寬包括了印度的移工對不對"},{"start":10861.974,"end":10880.463,"text":"所以換句話說本席告訴你如果依照你目前的政策你到2028年會突破多少百萬移工大關會突破百萬移工是不是有可能所以我們的方向看法是一致的所以本席要請教依照救福法的規定"},{"start":10881.864,"end":10896.256,"text":"蘭嶺移工每一年可以引進多少的總人數這個是舊法裡面規定依照外籍勞工聘僱警戒指標的訂定到今天為止你還沒有訂所以你就開了一個大口"},{"start":10896.977,"end":10922.171,"text":"大管道在這裡所以呢勞動部你是不是要怎麼樣解決我們的移工的問題在你必須要有外籍移工進來的時候你的相關法律的一個人數跟你要怎麼樣去調整這是目前我們必須要做的請做說明我們有定警戒指標了喔那我也一直在重申不能用開放移工來解決啦"},{"start":10926.533,"end":10934.426,"text":"那你竟然結論給我回答這個我本期問你的第一題跟第二題你都是運用外籍移工的但是我也沒有時間跟我講"},{"start":10937.578,"end":10962.733,"text":"不是好好的問題而且這個是社會面向的問題因為你這個如果沒有管抗也會影響到本級的勞工當然我非常同意到目前為止他要兩個禮拜做的事情他現在可能五天就做好因為逃跑的外籍移工全部加入在這樣的情況你都清楚這些事情你為什麼沒有方法去研讀"},{"start":10964.076,"end":10984.635,"text":"那怎麼辦本期所說的社會面向你都說是對那你應該要好好的應對你所認識的台灣目前的困境去做調整好不好你怎麼去做調整多久時間告訴我方案好我們一個月內給委員一個月內好不好因為數字真的很難看好不好一個月內加油好謝謝"},{"start":10986.701,"end":11011.002,"text":"好謝謝楊瓊英委員那今天沒有臨時提案所以我們繼續發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言謝謝主席有請我們何部長請何部長"},{"start":11017.128,"end":11017.251,"text":"您好"},{"start":11017.83,"end":11046.861,"text":"部長辛苦喔那其實今天連報告也有寫到啊就是說缺工的幾個主要原因當然小子話嘛後面還有包含就是那個福利啊或是待遇不符合嘛好那我就簡單從一個小的地方切入喔我想要問一下部長依照這個職工福利金的條例那職工福利金的保管動用應由這個依法組織的工會跟各工廠或是礦場或其他企業組織共同設置"},{"start":11047.701,"end":11060.876,"text":"職工福利委員會負責辦理那我想要請教部長的是說職工福利金的動資內容有無限制有有嘛對不對對那請教部長你認為健康檢查費用應該由誰負擔"},{"start":11066.797,"end":11092.827,"text":"顧主負擔反正當顧主依照職業安全衛生法的第20條以及勞工健康保護規則第17條反正就是顧主要負擔但是實務上常常面臨一種情況其實我們在房間也有聽到就是顧主會要求或協議要由職工福利金的這個負擔員工的減減費用請教部長這是否已經違法"},{"start":11094.685,"end":11123.423,"text":"對嘛違法是違法是違法吼好對那部長有鑑於實務上還是有部分公司他可能是對法令不熟悉是好所以本席在這裡所以他就去拗這個職工福利金去負擔員工的健檢費用喔所以我在想這部分是不是可以請勞動部可否再發函公告就是再發函提醒對再提醒然後當然要提醒他們雇主不要觸法然後你們後續再檢查部分這個部分應該也要再再再加強吼好好"},{"start":11124.514,"end":11151.988,"text":"好那部長再來就是這個大缺工潮已經來臨了那並且從這個人口結構來看未來問題只會越來越嚴重嘛那個其實那個報告都有寫我就不再重複那現階段我想你們也是應該有共識就是說提高各年齡層的勞參率啊是不是對不對會是一個相對比較主要的方式但是根據這個主技處的人力運用調查"},{"start":11152.868,"end":11171.329,"text":"其中為就業原因中有五個項目五個項目是女性高於男性我想請教部長你認為什麼因素導致女性的勞產率偏低因為女性要照顧啊不論是育兒或照顧老對謝謝部長你分析的很好就是基本上"},{"start":11171.929,"end":11185.692,"text":"分別是照顧子女、照顧年長家屬、照顧失能家屬、做家事、身心障礙等,也就是照顧及家務分工會導致損害女性的工作權及經濟獨立的重要原因。"},{"start":11186.687,"end":11204.775,"text":"那當然這個部分就會衍生出我們女性的時間的貧窮財務的貧窮甚至公共參與率低等等的問題那所以基本上我覺得她的問題就是女性不願意這就是不是她不願意就業而是這些前半跟這些責任"},{"start":11205.555,"end":11221.742,"text":"那無法就業的結果就是經濟無法獨立他經濟沒辦法獨立那他可能會落入不好的循環那男性呢退休之後他可能有這個勞保啦有勞退啦但女性若沒有工作就不行嘛好所以簡單來講這是女性的困境啊"},{"start":11222.222,"end":11239.328,"text":"那部長我們面對這樣的照顧責任跟家務分工涉及家內的這個分工的部分是不是並非是用公權力或制度設計可以解決但是政府可以在幾個方面上面去努力分別是這個看一下簡報政府整體服務供給的供給之承諾還有國家"},{"start":11243.149,"end":11265.365,"text":"對於育兒有兒童之家庭的承諾還有公共化兒童照顧服務的普及程度還有對老年人提供的照顧服務這是四大方向政府可以做的部分雖然這幾年我想政府也是大力在發展這個長照或者是說0到6歲國家一起養的政策但我看還是有限部長知道原因嗎"},{"start":11266.809,"end":11292.196,"text":"嗯當然這個可能提供的服務他的可禁用性也許這也是一個很有不友善這是雖然說就是對沒錯雖然說就是含有政策方向但是實際執行上面還是有很多問題會讓很多政策變成看得到吃不到或者不好用很難用比如說今年你們勞動部推出的這個彈性育嬰的留職停薪的事辦計劃是"},{"start":11293.436,"end":11300.731,"text":"是不是成效是不是那個背後的概念很好背後概念但是實際辦理成效是不是很差"},{"start":11302.847,"end":11330.386,"text":"對 那是事辦7乘6的事辦單位掛鈴嘛對不對部長原因是什麼我想請教一下其實這個台灣的企業的特性齁他在這一種就是說因為他是以日跟小時為單位啦他就是替代尤其在現在缺工嘛他的替代人力難找啦那如果是像快狀的育嬰留庭就6個月的喔那個倒是成效很好而且那個男性的申請也是達到薪金"},{"start":11330.786,"end":11341.114,"text":"所以我剛剛說這個計劃本身蠻糟糕的對不對就是說成效啊是不是很差就是你們自己統計嘛報紙都沒有嘛對不對好啦簡單來講沒關係簡單來講這個狀況就是說基本上會去用這個事辦計劃的員工就是沒有請這個比較長的育嬰假的對不對那他又已經回到職場了嘛對不對所以"},{"start":11352.862,"end":11381.385,"text":"他們會需要用那種短期育嬰流子停薪的員工其實就是比較少數啦那再來是小孩剛上幼兒園或是到托兒所之後其實因為他環境的差異啦或是其實有時候都會有臨時的突發狀況他可能會需要比較有請假的需求所以我在想的是是不是應該要把這種短期的談心的育嬰假適用對象因為本來是0到3嘛我們應該要把它擴大到6歲是不是比較符合家長的需求部長"},{"start":11382.125,"end":11395.603,"text":"因為既然0到6歲國家一起養那是否也應該在彈性育嬰假的上面擴大到0到6歲我原是指彈性育嬰假擴大0到6歲可是彈性育嬰假我知道這個部分就要涉及修法"},{"start":11397.313,"end":11417.032,"text":"性平法對對不對這要涉及到修法這就是我後面要講的所以它涉及到修法我只是想說因為你畢竟你的政策目的你就是希望可以打造我剛剛說的這四大方向嘛這四大方向嘛所以這個修法我倒覺得是不是應該要可以去討論也就是去修性別平等工作法的第16條從3歲放寬到6歲"},{"start":11420.508,"end":11443.761,"text":"本席有跟其他委員有這樣的修法提案我是想要請教部長這部分是不是可以請開始評估說性平法16條的放寬年齡的事宜因為其實這樣子是站在家長的角度這樣是比較適用的吧我以為我們來評估好不好對啊我就是我的要求是說是不是可以請你們評估那請問你們大概要多久的時間評估兩個月給您"},{"start":11444.99,"end":11457.036,"text":"兩個月評估可以給你說可不可以這樣做對不對好兩個兩個月我是覺得兩個月有點久欸一個月可以嗎這應該是蠻快的事情啊因為我們是希望幫這個我們的這些家長來推動啊"},{"start":11460.828,"end":11473.117,"text":"我們這個社會共識真的也是要凝聚一下因為彈性育嬰留庭那個意見就很多了那家中育有小孩的也是希望說家庭照顧假可以延長或是放寬這個彈性工時但這個比較複雜但是我還是想要請教部長有沒有可能家庭照顧假也從7天放寬到14天"},{"start":11485.765,"end":11513.646,"text":"因為其實這跟沒有這跟我們喊那些就是其他國家不同這是有需求的喔你可以你可以有這樣的放寬可是委員指的這個家庭照顧價是顧是簡單來講我做一個小結啦好不好我剛講的部分就是請你們去一並評估一並評估好不好就是說無論是育嬰價或是就是談心育嬰價其實最重要的還有這個家庭照顧價就是剛講的嘛我前面就講的這些數據跟你講這些東西其實部長你也都知道"},{"start":11514.454,"end":11538.063,"text":"你也都知道嘛但是你就是有沒有再去更細的去做或是去站在他們角度去思考嘛所以你們站在家長的角度去思考這個政策所以性別平等法的第16條的育嬰留職停薪從3歲放緩到6歲第20條的家庭照顧假如果從7天放緩到14天其實我覺得整體來講他是符合現行國家的這個0到6歲國家一起養的政策"},{"start":11538.703,"end":11554.044,"text":"更可以減輕這個父母職的照顧責任所以這一開始我在講這女性的部分那同時也是可以讓女性的勞動力釋放的好方法所以你前面不是也說嗎你們就是希望各年齡層或者個性別的這種勞產率可以提高"},{"start":11555.045,"end":11575.452,"text":"這是我們我在提的這個概念就是這樣這是有脈絡的所以我覺得這部分是不是可以請勞動部盡速評估這個可行性而且也希望說是不是可以提報這個行政院的版本可以以示我們行政部門的決心就是評估之後因為我覺得這個東西我們就是站在這個女性參與剛剛前面都講得很清楚"},{"start":11576.252,"end":11602.354,"text":"好然後再來最後一個產假的部分也是啊因為我們都圍繞著這個主題在講嘛我們也知道現在剛剛前面我有說你今天的報告有講少子化是缺工一個很大的原因嘛那基本上少子化這長期以來也都是國安的問題啊所以我想要問一下如果你認為這個部長如果產假啦育嬰假啦家庭照顧假增加他是不是可以比較一條龍的照顧可以更好呢"},{"start":11604.865,"end":11629.583,"text":"這個部分是不是也可以並評估一條龍您是就是說剛剛產價運價家庭照顧價這個是不是一起進去去思考的我們並評估給您好嗎對啊因為我覺得這是這不是我們國家的有先例其實其他國家在應對小子化都有這個部分所以爭取這個產價並不是隨口說說之前有好幾次專報也都說我們是還有之前也有一份報告也將近六成女性覺得說這個運價不夠對不對"},{"start":11632.745,"end":11654.385,"text":"所以其實我也要說以往都覺得要對標歐美國家我現在也給你看一個新聞嘛其實這個連我們旁邊的臨近中國大陸都有感於這個人口漸漸邁入老化他們在推所謂三胎啊那我想要講的是這個連他們都在講說他們的全境產價是98天起跳那北上廣山大都市是98加60是158天喔"},{"start":11657.248,"end":11679.126,"text":"那廣東省全金是98加80是178所以我要提的就是說我剛剛講的這些訴求我不是隨便亂喊其實很多人在做這件事情所以我就想說如果你們這麼消極會讓我們覺得說你是不是真的沒有這麼想要改善我們的生育率我想請問部長怎麼看我是希望這個是不是可以好好的評估其實我們一起來評估好嗎"},{"start":11682.526,"end":11683.287,"text":"接下來請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":11712.191,"end":11717.79,"text":"請何部長謝謝委員好等一下我的投影片沒有出來"},{"start":11721.246,"end":11748.978,"text":"那我想就是說今天其實我要講的題目也是就要講女性的勞參率就是說因為其實在非常多的研究我想部長也非常清楚就是我們必須要支持女性她才有可能回到職場那整體的友善職場就會變成一個非常重要的目標所以剛剛其實前面的委員也有提到有關於我們的彈性育嬰假的這個事辦計畫那我也可以理解我們的利益是良善的但是事實上我們的確就是實際上只有21家的勞工"},{"start":11750.979,"end":11773.481,"text":"有來申請等於超過7成6的事辦單位都是沒有人申請的那剛剛部長其實也有講一下這個原因但是我自己從網路上面其實也大概google當然我也有收到一些陳情就是說我們當時是希望讓父母可以兼顧家庭與工作但是呢我收到的意見是說他們會覺得說這個第一個家退保程序太過繁複"},{"start":11774.562,"end":11800.545,"text":"也就是說因為可以領到相關的補助所以必須要去辦理相關的程序但是依據我們的事辦計劃現在出來了但是依據我們事辦計劃原則的第8點受僱者於參加彈性育嬰流執停薪事辦期間是可以繼續參加原有的社會保險並且可以依據相關的規定請領育嬰流執停薪的相關津貼跟補助那既然可以參加原有保險"},{"start":11801.566,"end":11826.895,"text":"這一點應該不會是問題才對但是怎麼請領相關的津貼就可能會是一個問題所以這個部分可能要請勞動部來提出相關的解決辦法第二個部分就是說我們有聽到家長是有說當他去請的時候可能就會被關切就是說你要不要考慮一下這可能會影響老闆對你的評價你可能會影響到我們其他同事的對你的看法等等可能會影響到其他人工作"},{"start":11827.515,"end":11843.623,"text":"當然我知道我們的計畫上是不得已拒絕但是就是有這樣子的情況發生所以我想請教部長就是針對這兩點我們有什麼樣子因應的措施嗎委員我是不是可以請我的那個調評司司長我們先來回覆一下那個加退保"},{"start":11844.601,"end":11868.771,"text":"報告那現在有關那個加退保其實那個並不是說讓他退是說做一個註記的通報因為他是預應留庭後面要關連到他的那個津貼的發放的問題所以他要做通報現在已經可以線上通報沒有問題那第二個是說有關那個潛規則的這件事情其實我們大概期中座談有跟這些廠商來去做了解"},{"start":11869.759,"end":11892.555,"text":"有些他有來參與但是他沒有員工申請大概有一個原因是因為他的天氣我們這是開放到比較低的這個天氣比較短那有的員工他是認為說他已經可以用他現在有優於法令的一些價有的用特休有的公司他願意來參加他是比較有意願的公司他會有比較優於法令的一些家庭照顧價等等"},{"start":11892.935,"end":11912.481,"text":"他會優先用了那個假所以那個短天期的需求不見得每一個人都有這樣需求那我想先確認第一個問題就是說剛剛是說要做註記嘛那我想問一下這個東西到底現在在企業企業執行瞭解說可以用註記的方式的之後我們的參與的程度有提高嗎"},{"start":11913.521,"end":11930.403,"text":"這個部分我們都有再一次跟那個所有的事業單位說明因為他通報的話作為一個註記那勞保局那邊的話就是會連結到這個勞工要給他這個育嬰留職停薪的津貼那我們大概相關的程序的話那個流程的話我們會跟勞保局這邊來去再更加的優惠"},{"start":11930.623,"end":11931.524,"text":"議員提供更精進的配套措施．"},{"start":11952.116,"end":11968.204,"text":"我們為什麼今天需要這個彈性暈暈流停?我們來看看家庭照顧假怎麼一個月請完?就是說如果一個小孩子在3月2日早上收到通報藏病毒他就會被學校請他帶回去嗎?"},{"start":11970.587,"end":11984.632,"text":"所以這個就是需要請7天那家長會各請3到5天然後如果呢3月11號恢復上課了又有小孩確診他又要停課所以等於他只要一個月內他就會把他所有的家庭照顧假都請完"},{"start":11985.952,"end":12014.464,"text":"所以為什麼我們今天會非常非常需要這個彈性育嬰的政策因為的確就像剛剛前面的委員也有說其實是真的是非常的不足啦所以剛剛也有提到說要去這個性平法的第16條去修法因為其實到3到6歲這一塊現在目前是沒有被寒跨的可是其實幼兒園停課的規定是寒跨到6歲所以這個部分剛有提供提供說會提供給前面的委員這個報告也希望可以到時候一併提供給我那再來第二個部分啊"},{"start":12017.37,"end":12019.476,"text":"說:「抱歉,我們下夜好了,直接下,因為時間可能會不夠。」"},{"start":12020.523,"end":12045.578,"text":"好就是說其實我們看到非常多的報告不管是中研院或是經濟學院今年都一直在講說如何去講究這個生育率那其實他們都在講就是說撒錢不一定有用因為觀念轉變年輕的女孩子不願意再拼命生育小孩現金補貼對於中低收入戶的家庭還是有一些短暫的適應力但是中等家庭比起育兒更重視自己家庭的生活所以我們就發現說其實從各國的研究來看"},{"start":12046.599,"end":12070.266,"text":"撒錢不一定有用但是撒錢還是非常需要那同時還有一件事情也非常非常重要就是說我們從北歐的一個觀點一個成果來看他其實有做一個1980年代他提出了一個相關友善的措施也就是一個產假他總共一年有480天的親子假"},{"start":12071.466,"end":12098.442,"text":"他可以猜成月周日甚至小時來使用來結合一個更完善的兒童托育的政策所以出生率開始有小幅度的上升那其實我也想分享一個我們台灣的產價很少這件事情我想已經是這麼多年來有非常多的倡議團體一直不停的在爭取但是我們真的是太少了因為相比剛講的中國14週日本14週韓國90天新加坡甚至到16週我們這個8週的部分是不是還有可能可以來去提升"},{"start":12099.122,"end":12119.349,"text":"因為其實可以讓女性可以得到一個更好的一個休息的品質那更好的去支持她那這樣子未來才有可能有機會有機會去提升我們的生育率才有可能有機會去讓我們有更多的小孩這個部分是不是也可以一起來去思考呢提升我們的產價的部分"},{"start":12120.526,"end":12120.546,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":12139.676,"end":12140.377,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長。請何部長。"},{"start":12167.116,"end":12192.102,"text":"委員好部長好今天早上我有看到工商時報有一則新聞標題就是為了今天勞動部的業報我們的缺工專報那您提到說解決缺工要對症下藥不能只靠開放移工壓抑勞動條件等等我覺得您講的很有道理因為跟我心裡想的也一樣那為什麼我這樣說我們來看一下"},{"start":12194.463,"end":12206.767,"text":"主計總署一百一十二年的人力資源調查我們可以看到原住民族的勞動力參與率跟全體國人的平均看一下64.1%對59.2%"},{"start":12211.889,"end":12232.102,"text":"我可以說2.5%的原住民族人對於我國的勞動其實是很有貢獻的那我們進一步來看他說原住民從事的前五大行業營建製造餐飲住宿批發零售醫療保健及社工服務"},{"start":12233.223,"end":12248.401,"text":"尤其是營建工程原住民的參與率是18.01%高於全體國人的7.99%那相對的我們也來看一下我們提出的勞動部的專報裡面他說產業缺工的概況"},{"start":12252.766,"end":12269.516,"text":"製造業批發零售營建工程住宿餐飲醫療保健系社會工作服務業部長你看到這邊會不會覺得怎麼恰恰原住民從事的前五大行業跟我們勞動部說的缺工的五大"},{"start":12270.376,"end":12297.902,"text":"好像一模一樣所以在這個當中我就是今天想要請教一下部長是不是應該針對促進原住民就業來去做一個專案為什麼我這樣問因為我們看一下勞發署他有一個缺工就業獎勵這個其中你看一下身領的資格第一項他說受雇於同意3K產業雇主連續達30天以上"},{"start":12300.6,"end":12321.455,"text":"我想要跟部長說其實我們的族人看得到吃不到因為他不利於營造業其實我們都很清楚這一些族人營造業的工人他其實是跟著僱主走他不是跟著僱主走他是跟著工頭走所以他沒有辦法連續達30日以上"},{"start":12323.752,"end":12352.671,"text":"第2個他提到說每週工時達35小時以上一樣的概念他不是不想做工啊是因為沒有工可以給他做所以這個第一點跟第二點他比較類似坐在辦公室的那一種工作其實是不利於我們這些所謂的原住民投入的五大行業所以我為什麼要特別講就是原住民很願意工作對國家也很有貢獻"},{"start":12353.932,"end":12372.302,"text":"可是我們會發現好像針對他的獎勵沒有給他沒有給他那我們再看一下這個部分雖然如此齁你看雖然我們的勞動參與率就業率都比一般高了可是你看一下薪資薪資的差距卻高達將近一萬塊錢"},{"start":12374.203,"end":12396.437,"text":"所以我在這裡其實可能部長你已經清楚我想要講什麼就是針對工作時數未滿35小時的原住民就業者其實我們看一下他有將近一半的人他都說我有意願增加工時啊但是我們做這種工不見得天天都有工第二個這一些人又高達93%"},{"start":12398.939,"end":12427.022,"text":"他說原因是什麼當然是為了增加收入啊所以原住民其實是很願意工作很願意投入勞動力但是他們也很希望他們的收入可以增加所以我才會在這個地方就這個問題來請部長可不可以幫個忙就是原住民有這種工時不足非典型勞動的形態那怎麼樣透過這種缺工獎勵讓我們的原住民族人願意投入更多的勞力這是"},{"start":12427.962,"end":12430.724,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒您看到的缺工獎勵是針對製造業當然我們原住民的朋友在投入營造業方面是比較激動的、彈性的這個我們來檢討、調整看能不能給他們誘因"},{"start":12447.796,"end":12447.876,"text":"是是是"},{"start":12463.158,"end":12488.098,"text":"就是逐年趨緩然後現在趨於一致那也特別謝謝勞動部就是願意來催生公立的原住民族就業服務中心目前已經有6個縣市參與那這個部分呢其實原民會他們也願意漸漸的救他們過去因為沒有公立的原住民救福中心所以原民會呢有用就業貸金轉過來的就業基金他們有去辦一個所謂的救福員的服務人員"},{"start":12492.682,"end":12507.871,"text":"那目前有75名他們說他們現在是欲缺不補那因為他們希望未來能夠把這個兩股人力給他整病有更好的一個就業的一個體制那我也一直關心這個部分"},{"start":12508.331,"end":12534.984,"text":"所以我只是說讓部長知道一表達感謝二我們希望讓我們的整個救福的這個輔導的人力工作未來能夠跟原民會趨於穩定讓他走向制度化那也有一個就業保障也能夠確實的針對原住民來去做就業服務的工作媒合那最後就是剛才我提的部長也已經回答是不是一個月內可以針對剛才我提的"},{"start":12536.545,"end":12537.246,"text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":12568.945,"end":12570.708,"text":"主席 各位大家午安 順順還是請我們何部長"},{"start":12576.826,"end":12587.334,"text":"委員好部長我想這幾天的媒體做了很多缺工的這個專題那當然最驚悚的是說這個未來9年就是65歲以上要退出職場的有378萬人這樣的一個標題但是同時他也說到過去10年15到29歲投入這個勞動力市場的這10年裡面跟過去相比少了16萬人總的來說就是年紀高的人要退出職場"},{"start":12606.749,"end":12622.568,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":12623.689,"end":12631.394,"text":"說他有沒有再回流但是如果根據中時的這一份報導他裡面我比較感興趣的是臺灣10月人才缺口最大前五大產業他這個人數統計我不曉得怎麼統計來的我就不說姑且不說了他是104銀行但是呢我們可以從產業別來看缺口最大的住宿餐飲服務業再來是批發零售傳播這個直銷業"},{"start":12652.407,"end":12672.478,"text":"那再來也有一般製造業還有建築營造業然後呢他是講今年10月那如果從2021到2030年他用勞發署去推估的他平均每年需求人數前五大職業勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎不知道好沒關係不知道你要看報紙報紙都替你登了你還不看"},{"start":12682.472,"end":12696.235,"text":"你們在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員、採礦、營建、製造、運輸、勞動力、個人服務工作人員等等那我同時啊為什麼要講這個講這個喔講這個的問題要先來看說奇怪了如果按照104104同時還有一份調查他這個調查是這樣子的為什麼我看一下那份資料"},{"start":12712.162,"end":12729.297,"text":"一零四人力銀行一零四玩數據他們去發現幾十萬的年輕人的求職裡面他們在求職裡面發現他們最想要的工作其實他們最想要的工作就是忠實報導的這幾個行業別和職業別產業別為什麼"},{"start":12736.711,"end":12736.731,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":12736.731,"end":12737.432,"text":"這個現象是什麼意思?"},{"start":12737.432,"end":12737.633,"text":"你可以告訴我嗎?"},{"start":12750.53,"end":12778.303,"text":"委員這個是民間的這個人力難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎?完全都不值得一看嗎?我現在在問你的是為什麼同樣是104他們根據他們求職上網百萬的求職的人去統計年輕人他們求職意願最想要從事的工作登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個"},{"start":12780.592,"end":12805.192,"text":"嗯都是低技術的對這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思你可以可以假設是大概是什麼狀況嗎我我想喔民間他們在調查的詢問方法你的意思是說人家他們問的有問題我現在告訴你是說因為這一類的產業你講不出來我就試著替你解讀啦我覺得你一直在規避問題說民間的調查方法有問題或是他們問的這個"},{"start":12810.436,"end":12837.535,"text":"引導性不一樣但我現在我看到的不是這樣子我看到的是這幾類的產業低技術性服務業住宿餐飲批發零售行政助理這種低技術性年輕人入這個門檻最低而且最容易入手就有工作因為他缺工缺很大馬上有工作但是因為待遇太低了所以做不久就會流動"},{"start":12839.673,"end":12849.201,"text":"看到的現象就是這樣子所以他們在這一直在缺工可是年輕人最容易上手馬上要找工作就找找這一類馬上有你懂嗎那這種問題要怎麼處理這是什麼意思部長您這個結論我也同意啊對啊你剛才講不出來啊你同一個屁啊同"},{"start":12861.811,"end":12865.74,"text":"你為什麼不能講得好好的講一下呢?那我現在問你說這個現象這個問題要怎麼處理?"},{"start":12870.573,"end":12894.08,"text":"對委員這就是我剛剛也有回答前面委員的你剛剛說的整個早上我聽起來你就說你看我都撐住了我沒有繼續開放外籍移工我連警戒指標都定出來了我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪可是你還是要解決問題啊非典型工作人數逐年上升你知道去年上升到部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎非典型工作20.6萬人"},{"start":12899.963,"end":12916.172,"text":"我想部分工時者非典工作者我們現在統計有80.6萬部分工時者因為非典還包括臨時性和人力派遣我不要講臨時性跟人力派遣我就問你部分工時者一個禮拜做不到30小時的人請委員指示"},{"start":12921.345,"end":12928.069,"text":"當然嘛請委員只是我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要因為呢這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人占總就業人口數3.76可是你知道2022年是多少嗎41.5萬人一年成長多少人嗎將近兩萬人為什麼大家會變成是主動的想要成為部分工時者還是被動的"},{"start":12950.08,"end":12954.345,"text":"那如果再講說現在這一些非典型就業年輕人有沒有可能我們總的勞動力退出的很多新進的已經很少了而年輕人新進到這個職場裡面他選擇的不一定是要全職工作為什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":12972.084,"end":12981.691,"text":"對阿 人家還有很多選擇阿 你以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講 那是很大的選擇欸可是從外國來看喔 歐盟來看喔 零工經濟 我不願意當一個全職的工作者 他有可能有四種類型欸"},{"start":12991.533,"end":13012.131,"text":"第一種積極型的第二種臨時性勞工第三型的是勉強型的零工零工經驗第4種叫財務緊張型的零工你是不得不被迫去從事零工的他想要做全職卻做不到可是我要跟你講是積極型的零工"},{"start":13013.132,"end":13014.633,"text":"外國已經走在前面給我們看了而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理"},{"start":13033.476,"end":13034.157,"text":"在英國有400萬人"},{"start":13049.096,"end":13054.178,"text":"全體勞動力的32%我們的部分工時者只有3.76%英國是32%德國29%有600萬人法國有29%有400萬人西班牙有26%瑞典有33%"},{"start":13066.926,"end":13080.732,"text":"我是要跟你講部分工時者占全體勞工的比例在日本是29.93%在英國是23.18%在德國是22%在荷蘭37.3%在澳洲是25%這個數據代表什麼意義你可不可以在這裡告訴我你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來"},{"start":13095.226,"end":13113.757,"text":"當然先進國家其實在這部分的比例都比我們高這是這是沒有錯的可是說真的部分工時的這樣的人數多是不是一個好的現象這是一個值得探討我現在就在問你說這未來是會變成什麼狀況我就問你啊我沒有說這是好的勒"},{"start":13115.017,"end":13132.869,"text":"我沒有肯定這種現象餒但我剛剛就問你這麼多的部分工時的比例高比例對未來如果我們以此為鑑我們應該要採取因應的政策是什麼而對台灣如果從3.76上升到5.76到6.76而這樣的狀況對台灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況影響會是什麼"},{"start":13144.978,"end":13157.248,"text":"當然我們會... 你都沒有評估 沒有政策上的看到未來10年20年後 你現在不提出因應的策略 你在這裡只告訴大家 我不會繼續開放大量開放外勞 外籍移工 這樣搞不搞 你的眼光要看在哪裡啦"},{"start":13165.595,"end":13175.517,"text":"那如果再話再講回來這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升年輕人為什麼要這樣子你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":13177.998,"end":13194.816,"text":"我剛剛講的數據你回答不出來說從這裡看到什麼危機產業的危機勞動力的危機當然他也帶另一種產業也是一種心機可是呢我從勞動力不足這個角度切入你來告訴我要怎麼因應會有什麼問題"},{"start":13199.796,"end":13218.168,"text":"當然年輕人他們現在比較比較會往這個方向移動這也是事實啦所以當然我們也可以因應這個新的新興的這樣的林宮經濟的勞動型態我們也必須去研擬相關的這樣子的一個如果從我剛剛講如果從這個"},{"start":13221.85,"end":13231.317,"text":"四十三點三萬部分工時者那大幅增加到六十萬七十萬如果是零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主遏止而是大家主動年輕人有能力的年輕人他主動積極型的他這種零工經濟的勞工自顧者他不是勞工抱歉他可能是獨立工作者和自顧者"},{"start":13247.492,"end":13252.496,"text":"年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自顧者的比例大幅上升我想這是整個典範轉移的問題我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊新的經濟模式還有新的勞動模式形式的轉換了那你的因應的策略是什麼"},{"start":13276.226,"end":13277.287,"text":"您就這樣抽象的一句話,年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理?"},{"start":13295.806,"end":13299.528,"text":"還有這個yes123yes123人家這個求職網都大數據在那裡剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡你老是要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣你老是要這麼說人家是大數據分析耶yes123求職網他們調查發現"},{"start":13318.997,"end":13324.598,"text":"上班族認為有跨產業職場經歷的跨產業兩種以上產業的就就業保證他認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%跨領域技能的他們會得到就業保證的他們認為有79.1%再來講說對台灣的上班族來說想成為主修零工經濟學的斜槓勞工比例有多高你知道嗎"},{"start":13346.623,"end":13371.264,"text":"從ES123的求職網調查顯示．有高達九成三．92.6%的人表示．有成為斜槓族．同時有兩種職務支撐的意願．多於2022年的91.2%．更創下6年以來的新高啊這是事實．已經正在發生的事實"},{"start":13372.864,"end":13390.956,"text":"而為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的因為來自歐洲國家的研究他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度啊很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊輪班加班的我不做啦工作太勞累的我不做可是你還看到"},{"start":13392.356,"end":13415.534,"text":"這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作不接受長工時因為我們要有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人除非你帶給我的報酬是相當於你的高工時是付出是有代價有回報的而你知道你剛才講這麼多你都還停留在這個低薪的狀況本來勞動力的供給少於"},{"start":13418.957,"end":13447.79,"text":"那個勞動力的需求價格是應該上升的上升不上去而現在如果上升不上去我何必為了多一千多兩千然後在那裡賣我的肝呢所以呢在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時也牽扯到薪低薪在這種狀況裡面低薪的正職長工時加班賺那幾百元人家不要了"},{"start":13449.048,"end":13464.746,"text":"所以我們需要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情還有要低薪就是年輕人不婚不生然後少子女化的原因主因之一啊而你現在嫁"},{"start":13465.487,"end":13479.266,"text":"又給了少修工時又長所以他更不願意所以現在更缺工因為少子化更缺工陷入惡性循環很核心的一個業務都在你這裡工時、價、薪資"},{"start":13482.831,"end":13495.841,"text":"都是你主責的我今天要講這個然後我問你你講的好像我不開放即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎主委可以嗎部長抱歉開放大量的移工更多的人你不要在這裡說你擋住了你沒有擋住你就可以解決這個問題嗎"},{"start":13514.741,"end":13516.044,"text":"流用就可以解決了嗎?"},{"start":13516.044,"end":13516.225,"text":"部長可以嗎?"},{"start":13522.179,"end":13538.15,"text":"我現在告訴你日韓也在搶外籍移工當然有人講日韓因應搶工大潮日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足修正了移民法未來他們要在當時要預計5年要引進34萬人但是當然現在事實上5年過去了沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人"},{"start":13552.159,"end":13581.158,"text":"但是他們修了什麼?他們修了移工要跟日本國民相同的最低工資介於16到20萬日元現在可能更高了所以新台幣是4到5萬元基本工資比我們高耶工作滿5年以後通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權還可以帶家人來同住還可以自由轉換雇主"},{"start":13582.179,"end":13598.798,"text":"人家韓國政府也一直在修正欸以前這個韓國跟我們一樣太早依賴人力仲介然後也引進的時候沒有任何的訓練語言訓練也沒有就直接這樣子然後不當的剝削仲介不當的剝削層出不窮"},{"start":13601.201,"end":13623.234,"text":"所以他們在2003年修正了他們從2003年就採取了國對國的職聘模式外籍移工也跟本國的韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護而且政府職聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工的費用"},{"start":13624.531,"end":13637.542,"text":"所以人家有動機往日本韓國前進我們移工逃跑率最高的越南現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群"},{"start":13638.854,"end":13651.257,"text":"而且國際移工零付費這種狀況我們真的會有遠遠不絕的外籍移工可以輸入臺灣嗎?逃走如果被逼下去人們優先要去日本、韓國要不要優先來吃嗎?你以為在找印度就可以遠遠不絕嗎?"},{"start":13661.982,"end":13672.732,"text":"開放移工是解決的方法嗎?即便開放移工難道你的移工管理政策法律面制度面都不用再檢討嗎?"},{"start":13675.885,"end":13694.74,"text":"我們的成年大家成科講了幾遍又幾遍的都不用嗎?好最後我再講一點啦我再講一點我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決這個勞動力缺口的問題而主計處他主計已經做了一個統計了"},{"start":13696.221,"end":13699.683,"text":"我剛剛講說啊這個失業失業41.2萬人當中有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業主因待遇不符而期望而我現在在這裡25到64歲"},{"start":13714.292,"end":13726.219,"text":"主要工作年齡的非勞動力中仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人你知道嗎你說我們缺工6.6萬你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬你知道嗎主席出了統計喔幾萬你知道嗎部長你知道嗎不知道書長你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":13737.513,"end":13739.494,"text":"這個是主席處的統計資料你也看一下人有就業意願的有18.8萬人你缺工6.6萬台灣有18.8萬的25到64歲的人他還想要就業"},{"start":13754.827,"end":13759.51,"text":"而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中女性占了72%她的沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人不管是老的、失能的或小的"},{"start":13776.505,"end":13784.696,"text":"所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下把老的跟小的托老托幼的顧失能的國家扛起這個責任"},{"start":13793.647,"end":13808.278,"text":"我們的勞動力缺口,這裡可以補很多,補很大,我已經講過N次了,您就直接跟他說,我不會開放大量的外籍移工進來,這是正本清源的方法嗎?問題還是仍然存在,白天找不到,會有的沒人要送,對不對?"},{"start":13815.081,"end":13816.842,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員 接下來請羅廷偉委員發言"},{"start":13850.713,"end":13866.029,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長請何部長部長請問全時職位缺工的原因啊歸納起因你可不可以跟大家分享一下有哪些"},{"start":13869.037,"end":13876.664,"text":"當然缺工的原因很多啦是請說沒關係就你所知的你所說就好昨天在參與這個會議的時候我也分析過包括我們新興的勞動型態嘛當然各個產業我們的產業結構包括他的薪資待遇跟勞動條件"},{"start":13892.218,"end":13911.47,"text":"還有這個我們的整個役後的全球的搶工潮這些都是問題啦好那我想點出一個問題我們大家一起來探討為什麼年輕人都選擇做part-time做兼職你連領時薪也不願意做全職至114年1月1日起基本工資月薪調升28590好時薪調升190"},{"start":13918.137,"end":13940.747,"text":"本席跟部長說基本工資就是元兇之一今天我要分兩個層次來跟部長來探討這個全時職位缺工的一個事情第一個層次明年起基本工資的月薪是28590元若領時薪制的人來而言一天工作8個小時一個月我們工作大概22天他的月薪是"},{"start":13943.328,"end":13955.516,"text":"1908個小時22天相乘之下是33440元對吧在領月薪的概念下正值的月薪是28590兼值的可以來到33440如果是你會選擇哪一個"},{"start":13958.74,"end":13975.433,"text":"是委員那個部分工時就是這個時薪啦時薪的這樣子的一個調升當然現在的幅度我們今年也有把它就是調整到月薪是同等的甚至稍低一點"},{"start":13976.414,"end":13990.472,"text":"這樣的狀況是其實這是因為過去累積十幾年來累積的成的的問題啊過去會想要幫部分公使者加薪過去的政策上有這樣的傾向啦所以確實時薪不斷的調"},{"start":13992.975,"end":13997.983,"text":"甚至有的時候調的都比月薪還要高對沒關係那你現在說到是這樣的問題可是我就跟你講114年1月1號開始我們看到的一個問題狀況已經產生了這個數據有這樣子的一個明顯的差距那第二個層次把加單費加進去呢"},{"start":14008.274,"end":14023.321,"text":"所以明年基本工資28590這金額是把例假日國定假日工資都納進去喔勞基法規定是工作時數單週是40個小時所以兩者都換算下來正常的勞工時薪"},{"start":14024.4,"end":14038.399,"text":"月薪領月薪的這些人他換算時薪以後是119元所以部分工作的工作者這個最低時薪190元跟這個時薪假不包含例假日國定假日"},{"start":14039.38,"end":14066.639,"text":"所以我一直在講這個層次第一層次第二層次拉出來講我們看到這個問題這個數據兩者若把加班費都算進去月薪制的時薪119元乘以加班的前兩小時1.34或者是後兩小時的1.67以及時薪制的1.9對不起190元乘以1.34或者是1.67兩者相較加班費更多所以部長若是你你會選擇前哪一個比較多"},{"start":14067.941,"end":14089.537,"text":"確實那個就是時薪的這樣子的一個他的一個狀況會不會導致部分公司跟零工經濟的更盛行對啊這是一個原因所以剛剛有委員提出數據嘛那如果一些數據一直在不斷的拉高不過這有時候是這樣啊 雞生蛋誕生雞因為現在就是剛剛有講嘛那個那個你現在的年輕人"},{"start":14093.5,"end":14105.748,"text":"但我們需要找到一個平衡點我不是說一定就是說馬上要拉到什麼程度就可以抑制或者就馬上就回升不可能但是我要點出一個問題我們去稍幅度的去做改善對"},{"start":14109.241,"end":14134.733,"text":"面對現在的工作型態年輕人不喜歡我們要引入其他什麼樣的剛剛有說的可能是婦女可能是外籍移工這些部分我們要再多加的去做一個配套而不是說我全部的都擋住外籍移工而不是說我去忽略了女性想要從事工作那我們應該要加大力度應該鼓勵女性來參與這些工作"},{"start":14135.373,"end":14163.948,"text":"所以我覺得這些配套我今天點出來的是問題之一絕對不是問題的全貌所以我想說難怪正職沒有人做因為大家都去做兼職了因為是勞動部所造成的一個這個很直覺數字問題薪水的一個問題我想你們應該就像你剛剛有說的你有提到你有部分去做調整盡量把它拉近可是我現在所提出的數據我希望你也要正視這樣子一個問題為這群年輕人他們有時候是為了"},{"start":14164.729,"end":14175.13,"text":"這樣子的一個很簡單的數字問題他們只希望領到更高的薪水所以部長從哪一年開始月薪跟時薪就開始永遠會有落差你有去調查嗎"},{"start":14176.358,"end":14203.07,"text":"應該是2012年就開始了已經十年了十幾年了所以是不是由您開始來想辦法我今年其實已經都把它拉起了對你已經盡量拉起了再來我們也是會盡量要把它兩者要拉起啦對好所以對於我們今天的建議您是認同的是會去做改善認同認同是當然我們最低工資審議委員會也一直在討論這個問題"},{"start":14204.17,"end":14229.324,"text":"也是我們討論的核心那當然後面我想我從一開始就有問你喔不管是移工的一個問題那現在我們又要引入這個有簽這個NOU嘛印度的部分那國人都很關心不管是社會的衝擊還有到底他的一個時序表還有他有沒有一個概況到底是印度的哪一個省是我們未來要NOU最主要合作的一個對象這部分勞動部有規劃出來了嗎"},{"start":14230.475,"end":14255.058,"text":"我們已經有最新邀請對方的工作小組會議已經要開始了要開始了?你剛剛講的好像都已經確定了是確定要開始了?還是內容已經確定了?我們已經要開始對接就是工作邀請對方已經過來什麼時候可以開始?什麼時候可以確認?可不可以給我一個時間表?我們下個月他就會過來了嗎?還是這個月?"},{"start":14257.153,"end":14282.374,"text":"是你們要過去還是他要過來不好意思應方過來已經確定了12月11月就會有一個討論的討論的主軸就會開始出來了那當然社會的衝擊或者是社會民意的一個態度對於這個到底認不認同我現在有待溝通其實我們這個範圍很小啦初期是那個規模很小的"},{"start":14283.014,"end":14283.475,"text":"接下來請李博毅委員發言"},{"start":14312.168,"end":14332.893,"text":"有請何部長。請何部長。委員好。謝謝部長。辛苦了。我想今天的命題有點會讓人家很容易跳進。今天的命題叫做全時職位缺工概況。我看每一個委員問的都是"},{"start":14335.27,"end":14353.205,"text":"全職人員跟部分工時明明就在講全職職位缺工概況那原因是什麼原因就是說是不是有大量的全職跑到部分工時所以造成我們今天要來討論這個全職職工缺工的概況"},{"start":14357.669,"end":14383.877,"text":"所以剛剛所有的委員很多大部分也都講得很清楚新型的這個就業形態確實會讓很多人去選擇很多原因我不贊成去直接去說現在的年輕人會這樣做我比較傾向說很多原因會造成現在的這些部分公司的人增加那甚至其他這些包含這些"},{"start":14386.458,"end":14408.384,"text":"包括民間夜市123人力104等等的這些數據的統計的結果跟我們主計總署統計的結果確實有一點落差那跟我們一般其實我們在民間訪談所聽到的這些狀況正在發生的狀況也都不一樣那我直接講最後一頁"},{"start":14410.97,"end":14425.249,"text":"就是也很多人在講比如說餐飲業如果我選擇的是部分工時那跟全職的人員的薪水落差會有多少可能選部分工時的這個條件會比較好"},{"start":14425.97,"end":14445.071,"text":"空間會比較好生活會比較快樂那導覽部可能的給僱主的意見就說按你可能可以增加這些全職工時的薪水好可以增加那可能餐飲就餐飲費用就會增加所以整個社會的包含這些未來的生活指數可能會"},{"start":14446.152,"end":14467.708,"text":"越來越高等等的跟我們的一些工時就跟我們的最低工資跟我們希望雇主提升全職工時的這些顧問人員的薪水要高一點都有關係啦那所以說怎麼樣取得一些平衡部長我跟你說有一群受困的人跟"},{"start":14468.789,"end":14479.184,"text":"比如說台灣現在便利商店的加盟業者是有要求你加盟的時候你這個加盟者你可能要負責每個禮拜要工作幾個小時"},{"start":14482.369,"end":14511.749,"text":"那很多結果都變成這些加盟者都在顧大夜班大夜班請不到人然後再來也正在發生的我就碰到好多件加盟者已經必須要去跟他的這個加盟公司解約要賠大量的金錢為什麼他說我的健康還是比較重要所以開始有一些加盟便利商店的加盟者已經正在發生解約這件事情還有"},{"start":14512.729,"end":14522.515,"text":"有些咖啡店已經決定原本營業到晚上9點10點的都已經決定到6點為什麼其實也跟這一些"},{"start":14524.793,"end":14548.164,"text":"全職人員的工作時間不穩定全職人員的比較難找大部分都不分工時造成整個人員調度不穩定所以部長正在台灣社會發生的這些問題這些都跟工時都跟部分工時以及全職的薪水正相關正在發生所以小老闆們"},{"start":14549.284,"end":14575.196,"text":"小老闆們我講的是開咖啡店的我講的是餐飲店的小老闆們非常的痛苦那我們應該要怎麼樣去協助他們這是正在發生的事情所以藉由今天這一個報告我想在這邊大家也都有看到社會的一個方向很多人轉向部分工時那轉向部分工時那勢必有很多產業必須要做一些轉型"},{"start":14577.011,"end":14599.346,"text":"就是說這一杯咖啡可能賣60塊的或者是晚上6點以後營業的會漸漸少了那這些餐飲可能也會漸漸調有一些不一樣的這些轉向所以在這邊其實國人都愛去日本旅遊那我們現在去日本的便利商店最大的特色是什麼都是外籍"},{"start":14600.623,"end":14605.192,"text":"我的意思不是要外籍移工進來在我們就業服務法第46條裡面針對"},{"start":14609.293,"end":14631.273,"text":"外國人在中華民國境內工作還有第50條針對外國學生他還是有一些限制跟條件那我覺得這些都是可以進入一些實質討論的方向的規劃那也有很多電子業已經跟學校因為少子化學校學生也不夠嘛"},{"start":14631.914,"end":14652.449,"text":"那經由跟學校的合作已經開放逐漸有一些這些救福法46條裡面可以納入的範圍尤其第9項看護工作這個確實也是在整個台灣社會非常欠缺的我希望勞動部可以就這個方向去研擬鼓勵學校鼓勵"},{"start":14654.17,"end":14683.057,"text":"跟這些包含看護行業包含著便利商店小老闆們小餐飲業者們等等找出臺灣新型的消費形態要怎麼走好謝謝委員因為其實橋外生我們是一個現在很鼓勵的領域就是他的項目其實還限制很多我相信可以慢慢的去開放我們可以鬆綁更多其實現在橋外生我們要進一步開放他個人工作許可就是以後他可以做任何行業"},{"start":14684.077,"end":14685.177,"text":"謝謝李博弈委員我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":14868.148,"end":14868.354,"text":"本集完"},{"start":15354.537,"end":15371.481,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來請圖全級委員,圖全級委員,圖全級委員不在。請嚴匡委員,嚴匡委員,嚴匡委員不在。請戴世保委員,戴世保委員,戴世保委員不在。請吳春城委員,吳春城委員,吳春城委員不在。請黃修亮召委。謝謝主席,我們請何部長。來,請部長。"},{"start":15383.524,"end":15410.772,"text":"部長好今天從早上到現在其實很多委員關心的就不論是全職的這個工作或者是部分工時的工作那其實我們講缺工的問題確實還蠻大的那尤其是這個製造業製造業的這個缺工更大因為像彰化這一邊中小企業非常的多那他們也會反映就是說他們一個工作就像部長你們今天的這個報告"},{"start":15412.132,"end":15435.9,"text":"有6.6萬個職位這個懸缺超過半年找不到人那確實這個是真的在我們的地方確實是這樣子的狀況那很多這個製造業他們也希望說能夠聘請臺灣就是臺灣的這個勞工畢竟臺灣的勞工第一個語言可以溝通那第二個他也不需要去"},{"start":15436.34,"end":15438.382,"text":"一般的這個傳製造業他們第一個優先還是希望所有台灣的勞工來應徵嗎那非不得已的話他們就會在"},{"start":15456.563,"end":15479.162,"text":"請眾屆可能就引進這個外籍移工進來那我今天想要知道就是說勞動部也針對這個缺工的原因你們也有做一些分析嗎那怎麼解決原因有兩個第一個可能就是說這個薪資跟原本這個勞工的這個期待有一些落差那另外一個就是說工作年齡的人口逐年減少"},{"start":15480.763,"end":15505.07,"text":"這兩個主要原因那你們也有提出一些因應的方案比如說可能就是跨部會的這個合作機制啊有些媒合國人就業那還有一個就是說這個職業訓練培訓產業人才接下來才是這個加強這個推動中階技術人力流財的政策那我想請教就是說"},{"start":15506.212,"end":15529.121,"text":"其實你們提出了這些解決的方案那比如說這個跨部會的合作機制優先媒合本國人就業那這個還有另外一個是職業訓練培訓產業所需要的人才那因為製造業確實缺工的問題非常的多那你們有這樣的一個機制培訓的這個機制那到底"},{"start":15530.241,"end":15552.001,"text":"這個培訓的課程培訓完之後他真正投入到這個產業到底有多少那確定可以解決這樣子的一個缺工的問題到底有多少上次我記得我有問過這樣的議題就是說你們是不是有做一個統計那今天我再問一下就是說你們針對這一部分就是說你們做執訓完之後那確實投入這個產業"},{"start":15553.642,"end":15565.068,"text":"也解決了少部分的這個缺工的議題這個問題那你們到底有沒有做一個統計有委員那個我們製造業的部分去年訓練10242人訓後就業率有82%到9月今年9月底有訓練到8366人是那像營建業的部分去年訓練3920人"},{"start":15583.118,"end":15583.478,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":15606.017,"end":15632.192,"text":"為什麼地方尤其是製造業製造業缺工的這個議題真的是很多企業他們在反映就是缺工嗎就是缺工所以我也知道就是說你們在地方都有做這樣的一個培訓執訓的一個課程那照剛剛部長講的投入投入到職場的也有七八十百分之七八十那算也也不低啦那為什麼還是有"},{"start":15633.976,"end":15659.541,"text":"不夠啦。就是還不夠。對啊。所以就是說畢竟真的少子化啦。就缺工的這個議題。對。這個真的整體的人還是少的嘛。整體的人少了說真的我們就算訓練再多投入再多那個整體的供給可能確實還是不夠的。那就是我們講的就是說好那供給不夠缺工這個議題應該"},{"start":15662.001,"end":15689.221,"text":"從一開始我們就一直在討論這個缺工的議題嘛齁那這個也是勞動部應該要這個積極去解決的問題那我想請 委員跟您報告喔那個彰化地區向我們工業區廠商聯合會我們跟他們溝通他也是我們最低工資審議委員我們跟他溝通非常密切他們也是有在反映所以我們現在也會針對我們所謂的3K5極致啦這個禁用比例40%"},{"start":15690.882,"end":15699.488,"text":"有沒有可能有一些調整?我們這個已經有跟他們密切的溝通討論會檢討調整第三個你們有說加強推動中階技術人才的這個留任的政策"},{"start":15709.514,"end":15729.394,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":15730.635,"end":15743.24,"text":"初步我看到從事旅宿業．可能就是房屋、清潔、訂房、接待．餐廳外廠的工作．初次受聘的薪資門檻為3萬．續聘是3.3萬．之前部長也在這邊有講說．3萬或3.1萬、3萬1千．這個算是低薪．"},{"start":15755.606,"end":15774.928,"text":"上次部長有這樣講,那如果說我們針對畢業的橋外生從事這樣的工作,就是說可能一開始是初次受聘就3萬,然後續聘是3萬3,那部長你覺得這樣子的話可以確實讓這些人願意留下來嗎?"},{"start":15777.24,"end":15798.449,"text":"這確實是問題啊 這個也是為什麼我即便開放的喬外森是這樣中間人才來從事 那喬外森也是會挑工作啦 是對那這樣的薪資又因足不足以又使他們留下來是問號 這也是呂樹葉的問題 因為他在怎麼他們開出來的薪資水準就是這樣 是對那這個是主管機關"},{"start":15799.77,"end":15800.331,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況"},{"start":15815.186,"end":15836.598,"text":"比如說協調也好或是溝通也好我覺得如果說照這樣子的話你剛剛講的這三個機制可能跨部會合作機制優先媒合本國人就業那第二個就是說這個做職業培訓職業訓練那第三可能就是中階技術人才的這個留才"},{"start":15837.478,"end":15867.063,"text":"那如果說你中階技術人員的這個流財的政策如果他開出來的薪資還是這樣的話我不認為他們會願意留在這邊工作就像剛剛很多委員講的可能我們鄰近的國家他開出來的薪資都比臺灣的薪資還好那怎麼樣讓這些人願意留下來我覺得這是一個很重要也很大的一個問題我跟委員報告就是含包括義後缺工獎勵方案為什麼這個質詢率不好也是這個因素"},{"start":15867.683,"end":15892.424,"text":"所以我們就是說希望企業界要有一個認知這已經不是低薪的時代了無論是對本國人或者是移工都是一樣的因為我們也在跟國際搶工這是最大的問題的根源很像喬外森就像您剛剛講的陳孫林剛剛講的但也是在國際搶工潮裡面他們都是可以留向任何國家的未必要留在我們這裡"},{"start":15893.345,"end":15917.101,"text":"所以我覺得這應該也要去跨部會或者是也要跟這個企業或者是跟工業區竟然就是說我覺得我們部會可能也要跟地方的工會或者是地方的這些場協會可能也要有一些溝通啦對對或者是商總我覺得應該要有一些溝通他們應該也要如果有賺錢應該也要願意跟所有的勞工一起分享"},{"start":15918.402,"end":15938.801,"text":"最後一個我想請教就是昨天院長在那個院會的時候因為有委員質詢那有特別提到就是說這個家庭幫傭這個議題我想請教部長就是說昨天我聽到院長有說這個可能在年底的時候會"},{"start":15940.883,"end":15960.635,"text":"可能會做一個決定那我想請教就是說針對我們講的說第一個要優先媒合這個國人就業那再來才是如果真的缺工可能就是開放移工或者是其他的這個政策那我想請教關於這個家庭幫傭"},{"start":15964.497,"end":15991.887,"text":"家庭幫庸他未來如果說你們開放之後那是不是也要協助這個育兒的這種工作可能就是照顧孩子小孩的這樣的一個工作我覺得這個可能這個議題可能會牽涉到很多層面那這個議題也是很多人關心的對委員就是家庭幫庸開放的議題我們必須衛福部一起來處理那衛福部在這方面目前都還很保留"},{"start":15992.347,"end":16005.164,"text":"是,那當然...如果照昨天院長這樣講的話他講的好像是說這個年底就會有一個決定那我現在已經10月底了"},{"start":16006.178,"end":16032.735,"text":"距離年年底可能剩下一兩個月我相信你們應該也自己有一個副案那我想要提醒就是說這個議題會牽涉到的層面非常的多那可能就是保姆的這個我們國人的保姆的就業機會可能也會受到衝擊所以我覺得說這個如果要做一個決定應該也要很審慎的去做一個評估是這我們必須跨部會溝通是而且確實成如您講的這個我們"},{"start":16034.796,"end":16034.996,"text":"當然當然,謝謝委員"},{"start":16076.109,"end":16103.586,"text":"接下來請葉元芝委員葉元芝委員葉元芝委員不在接下來請劉建國委員發言好謝謝昭偉我就接續昭偉剛剛徐育群部長的題目好不好何部長部長剛剛也答呼黃少偉講的台灣的環境現在早已不是這個低薪的環境那勞動部知道這個狀況那勞動部要扮演的"},{"start":16105.309,"end":16119.984,"text":"去改善這樣的一個情況的角色會著重在什麼地方?委員就是說應缺工當然我們在報告裡面也提就是說包括"},{"start":16121.178,"end":16139.53,"text":"提醒培訓國人然後這一個引進外籍大概不脫離這些方式可是我們也必須去因應現在的整個勞動形態的變化那還有包括現在的產業形態的變化我們如何跟產業之間進一步的來討論怎麼樣才是一個你願意"},{"start":16145.515,"end":16162.392,"text":"你願意付出的然後又可以引進這個你需要的勞動力然後是搭配你願意付出的薪水所以這就是我們要在勞動力的供給端跟這個需求端我們要去幫他們撮合的一個滿艱鉅的工作"},{"start":16169.164,"end":16171.789,"text":"我還在消化部長講的"},{"start":16177.763,"end":16199.682,"text":"臺灣已經不是一個低薪的環境基本上基本上很多的很多的很多的類別啦才略別來講他也不見得有多低薪喔甚至高薪的還蠻多的然後包含包含包含包含包含剛從大學畢業的"},{"start":16201.224,"end":16202.705,"text":"在台北市的服務業平均薪資也不算低"},{"start":16222.822,"end":16223.323,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16238.079,"end":16254.149,"text":"更堅強的這個角色不過他還是會連動到相關的部會這個我們都清楚嘛那不曉得你可以看一下就是說這個是你們的報告嘛6.6萬6.6萬的職缺這個是超過半年補不到人的嘛對不對這是勞動部的資料綜合統計結果綜合的分析"},{"start":16256.93,"end":16275.084,"text":"主席處剛剛部長有回問其他委員就是說他一個事業能力雇用調查的這個報告則是112年8月底工業及服務業的職缺數是在23.7萬然後他會叫同年的2月增加2.1萬因為他是8月2月8月這樣在計算"},{"start":16277.486,"end":16288.232,"text":"那或許這23.7萬的職缺就成了部長答覆的可能你們在統計的方式不太一樣他應該是不是就不是缺過這個缺超過6個月的啦您這個是組總的調查吧沒有組計總處下一張對他這個就是職缺調查"},{"start":16299.552,"end":16314.6,"text":"對這個是主計總署的調查沒錯對嗎我說你們你們是半年你們的6.6萬是超過半年補不到人的嘛對不對那主計總署或許就是不是超過6個月的一個統計嘛對應該是這麼講他可能現在缺而已"},{"start":16315.94,"end":16330.385,"text":"現在缺而已但是你去年8月對照2月主計總署的統計一個表格是增加2.1萬這是主計處我不曉得你怎麼解讀這個那部長你再看下一個數據"},{"start":16332.587,"end":16351.245,"text":"103一直到112這個是主計的資料他是每年就這樣公布如果他公布這個數據是有問題的那就很嚴重了因為105是明晚開始執政那你看我們在105到109左右平均都在22萬以下"},{"start":16353.407,"end":16373.695,"text":"10月110疫情的一些狀況有增加但是到了11年到112年我們還是維持在23萬以上不是以下這個我就要請教部長有沒有機會有沒有什麼做法有什麼精進的作為可以壓低回到105到109這個區間22萬左右有嗎"},{"start":16378.337,"end":16403.206,"text":"委員我想因為歷經3年的疫情啦他這個是有一個爆發式的經濟需求存在其實這個喔112年23.7那當然慢慢的也許他也有可能緩和下來啦這也是有可能的那可是你說我有沒有這個能耐把他要回到105年"},{"start":16405.488,"end":16422.304,"text":"我沒有用能耐兩個字來形容部長我是說有沒有想到用什麼樣的方法可以把他壓到22萬當然我們現在正是要努力但是如果部長要願意這樣努力達成這個目標但是你們今天報告又會被挑戰"},{"start":16423.385,"end":16445.993,"text":"你們的報告你們報告裡面寫這樣每年協助求職者就約50萬人其中在112年就協助服務部門僱用44.8萬包含住宿、餐飲13萬、批發及零售業11.3萬顯然這個老花署每年都有這樣成效但是你看那個缺工還是持續在惡化"},{"start":16447.552,"end":16473.008,"text":"報告裡面 寫得也非常清楚就缺工缺工的原因以這個待遇不符合期望比率最高這部長剛剛在答詢的過程裡面也一直提到那行政院總署也有這樣的一個資料就人力運用調查統計資料顯示失業者曾遇過工作機會曾遇有工作機會而未就業原因中以待遇不符合期望佔比最高62%其實什麼地點"},{"start":16475.489,"end":16488.473,"text":"對理想工作環境不良等等等比例還算是偏低嘛那我現在是現在就是說那勞動部在沒有這些工作的時候有沒有再去做這樣的一個統計他留在這個職場的時間有嗎"},{"start":16493.515,"end":16505.704,"text":"我請署長講好請署長跟委員報告我們一般就會追蹤至少三個月會持續做追蹤至少三個月以上對以下以下因為有些像兆福園這一部分我們甚至到一年"},{"start":16507.649,"end":16522.269,"text":"不同列比的追蹤的時間所以你這樣的統計數字有點奇怪我這邊有一個民間的統計數字你看一下他根據民間的統計大概約有25%到4%的先進員工他在半年內就離開了就離職了"},{"start":16525.197,"end":16551.306,"text":"這樣如果你套在你們老花鼠每年每盒50萬也就是說你們一旦每盒50萬不到三個月半年他就跑了就離子12.5萬到20萬左右嘛就半年內離子啦我們講半年內為一個週期來講這個是這個數據這樣推估如果統計起來等於老花鼠在做這些事情好像在做白工"},{"start":16553.231,"end":16559.219,"text":"我們來檢討好嗎我們現在大家檢討嘛 我想想這樣檢討就對了待遇不符合期望又高達62%部長講的臺灣就已經不是一個地心的環境嘛"},{"start":16564.972,"end":16583.43,"text":"他這個待遇不合期期望到底是雇主不願意去提高薪資還是還是還是從事這個職業的人他覺得這個薪資沒有達到他要的這個我們不曉得你們有沒有去做相關的一些調查"},{"start":16585.629,"end":16596.634,"text":"因為我覺得他是要細究的啦他絕對不是只有單純說平均薪資怎樣怎樣這樣我們也要調了啊你看明年我們的明年最低的基本工資是28590塊嘛對不對時薪就來到190嘛其實你們都有在做嘛民進黨執政的這89年已經提了9次了嘛"},{"start":16605.257,"end":16631.928,"text":"所以我是覺得說然後你再看喔你們報告就寫你6.6萬的缺工數與中階技術層次最多占59.7嘛對不對那同時較高層次占32高階技術占32.7排序在第二嘛然後你們有一個叫做後續強化精進做法是要把橋外生拿來補嘛"},{"start":16633.288,"end":16636.009,"text":"喬外森本來是一個補充能力那你現在把他放在中階這一塊那喬外森就不會跟你講說心思不符合期望"},{"start":16654.208,"end":16672.666,"text":"他也會啊對啊我要跟您報告齁其實現在我們對強化衛生的政策已經逐漸不是把它看成補充他是已經把它當人才啦好啊我們甚至還要搭配國防會的修法攬財的專法的修法你既然把它當人才希望能夠把它銜接技術移民對對對這樣問題又更嚴重了"},{"start":16675.359,"end":16704.742,"text":"對不對待遇不符期望那蕎麥生沒有這個問題有他有他也有這樣的問題啊他所有蕎麥生可能比例會比62%更高那你們怎麼處理待遇不符期望對啊對啊對啊是這樣啦所以蕎麥生進來他會是做他這個臺灣就是說我們現在看那個產業裡面他有需求的高就是說薪水有一定程度以上的而真的找不到人啊"},{"start":16705.662,"end":16727.474,"text":"這個才是我要開中階的目的嘛比如像我昨天在我在服務業的那個座談裡面測會繪圖的那種技術人員他的薪水可能比如說四五萬以上的可是你的腿他就找不到人而他是需要專業的那這一種我就是吸引我就是用這種中階橋外生來希望能讓他們來進入這裡這樣子啦"},{"start":16732.465,"end":16748.676,"text":"你這樣打呼我 我覺得怪怪的就台灣我們就自己找不到了你期待中階這一塊從喬外森找然後你又不擔心他們有這個待遇不符合期望的狀況就沒辦法衝突衝突了"},{"start":16749.485,"end":16766.436,"text":"不是委員我現在有個概念大家要弄清楚就是中階的是人力他不是for低薪行業的移工啦這是兩個是喔中階的人力他是真的要來補人力的不足而他是一定薪水以上的喔"},{"start":16767.837,"end":16789.738,"text":"會有薪資門檻的 這就是為什麼旅宿的中階橋外生他還要限制薪資門檻3萬3以上你如果是在臺灣的旅宿業都會低到2萬7、2萬8這樣子而已所以這個是中階人力是有薪資門檻以上要來補人力不足的而"},{"start":16793.092,"end":16809.297,"text":"所以他不會去他也會向上提升薪水啦我的意思是這樣就我的理解現在不要說中階連低階的薪資門檻都有在提高如果說你對僑外生有中階的這個勞工需求的薪資門檻的這樣的一個設定那對國人怎麼又沒有"},{"start":16819.332,"end":16822.596,"text":"我們對國人也是那就是希望要提高薪資啊"},{"start":16823.761,"end":16852.589,"text":"對啊你你這邊講門檻這邊是提高薪資那個那個做法上就會為什麼我們要限要要對中階有薪資門檻就是怕他拉低國人薪資啊所以我們才會有薪資門檻的限制因為他不是移工這就是為什麼我不開服務業移工的原因因為服務業移工太低嘛你一進來又不是不是我們要弄清楚一件事情你對你對喬艾森的中階的這個部分有一個門檻的提高對不對那你對國人的中階的部分有沒有做這樣處理沒有"},{"start":16853.61,"end":16875.457,"text":"國人的中階甚至都會更高啦因為國人本身在薪資水準上都是時間的關係啦我們再來對啦最後一個我再提醒我還是希望你那個精進的報告可能要再詳細一點好不好不然你那個老花鼠這麼辛苦真的我感覺好像都是在做白工什麼原因這麼快就離開這個職場"},{"start":16878.177,"end":16898.724,"text":"是不是只有單純的待遇不符合期望的62%我覺得這個是可以討論的空間啦我最後再提醒老花鼠好不好你們喔現在我們就全台在講缺工趙薇今天也排這個專案嘛那你看老花鼠在辦理工作崗位訓練有這個叫做先顧後訓然後每訓練一年每月有補助1.2萬喔"},{"start":16900.525,"end":16915.973,"text":"對不對特定區域你又提高到每個月1.5萬我想這是一個好的政策力量善嘛你的網站怎麼又這樣特定缺工產業先顧後勸課程查詢馬上查詢兩則課程你又發言了八個"},{"start":16926.229,"end":16926.869,"text":"接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":16968.472,"end":16970.385,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請到何部長請何部長"},{"start":16976.15,"end":16997.624,"text":"部長好,我們今天討論全時職缺工的問題所以有一個問題我想要先釐清一下就是我看我們最低工資長期以來就是時薪高於月薪有沒有辦法把月薪提高到時薪的總和"},{"start":16999.545,"end":17023.179,"text":"怎麼算呢?就是10星乘以8再乘以22天來當作最低工資因為我覺得這個問題不解決全職的職缺缺工不會改善因為我用part-time領的錢"},{"start":17025.936,"end":17053.041,"text":"一樣的工時是比最低工資高的 這個可能很多人會不願意投入全職的職缺 這個部長有什麼看法?是 非常同意委員的提醒 這也是我們最低工資審議委員我們今年有很熱烈的討論這個問題 那沒有成功的原因是什麼?你們講很熱烈的討論"},{"start":17055.241,"end":17083.582,"text":"因為明年明年都已經公佈了嗎?還是有一定的差距嗎?倒是我們現在再慢慢把它拉齊啦。你明年可能要差到4千7百多。是就是因為我們今年的幅度我們就把它拉到跟那個甚至稍低一點比那個月薪的條幅稍低一點我們再來慢慢的往會拉齊這兩邊。不是"},{"start":17085.865,"end":17096.337,"text":"剛剛劉建國委員也提到就是求職者不願意倒職的因素裡面有超過60%是對待遇有意見"},{"start":17102.259,"end":17128.297,"text":"為什麼是把時薪的條幅拉低而不是把月薪的條幅拉高部長剛剛講的是你們討論的時候想要讓他趨近接近嘛那有兩個方法你們為什麼會選擇拉低時薪的條幅而不是拉高月薪的條幅"},{"start":17131.955,"end":17141.427,"text":"這個就是光是部長這樣子的回答就表示臺灣的要脫離地心的環境非常非常的困難"},{"start":17143.131,"end":17170.399,"text":"不是委員這可能我要再解釋更清楚一點這個是我們整體會去調高最低工資會逐漸的往上調的一定都是往上調可是呢月薪的部分他能不能一次就去拉超過這麼高這是一個最低工資審議委員會必須討論的問題也不是我能決定的這個要整個大家有共識才行啦"},{"start":17170.839,"end":17197.281,"text":"而他條：如果是那個幅度一下子太高喔整個社會能不能承受也是問題對企業主可能沒有辦法承受這個我可以接受我現在是說為什麼審議委員會有意識到全職的最低工資跟時薪是有差距的那在審議的時候"},{"start":17199.122,"end":17219.182,"text":"是把時薪的條幅降低而不是把全薪的條幅拉高懂我意思嗎?因為這個是部長剛剛回答的喔是是是委員我剛剛要再跟您補充你聊口誤你就說口誤沒有關係我是可以接受的"},{"start":17220.062,"end":17229.967,"text":"當然啦我實習那個部分的條幅其實是去掉尾數啦他倒並不是說我刻意去把它降低啦因為台灣的薪資確實是"},{"start":17236.284,"end":17252.038,"text":"是偏低啦 也因為偏低所以才我們今天才討論這個問題啦 是是是 按照勞動部最新的調查就是到今年7月底全國缺工長達半年找不到職缺的有6.6萬 是"},{"start":17256.633,"end":17278.161,"text":"按照行業別,長達半年找不到的依序有製造業、批發業、批發零售業、營建、旅宿業、社會工作服務業。請問部長,上述業別增才半年沒有辦法補足的主要原因是什麼?"},{"start":17279.929,"end":17299.756,"text":"嗯對其實當然他這裡是超過半年啦齁超過半年都一直沒有辦法待遇跟勞動條件都是原因啦一定都是主要原因好那對所以您去看齁那我就直接問那你你們到底有沒有解決的方案"},{"start":17301.818,"end":17322.025,"text":"我看部長在回答原因的時候速度很快那你們有沒有因應的方案?懂我意思嗎?因為你們肩負著全國勞工的工作環境工作條件等等的照顧這是勞動部成立最大的種子"},{"start":17322.945,"end":17335.188,"text":"包括職業訓練讓他在職場上可以一直精進讓他取得更好的薪資這個都是你們的工作那原因你知道你有沒有因應的方案"},{"start":17338.322,"end":17358.806,"text":"對我因應的方案當然委員就是我現在最大的困難我想是我們會發生在產業端這邊對所以我們必須要有效的跨部會整合然後看能不能把這個我們比如我們現在主動在做學校部長我的理解我這樣子講就是說產業界那邊應該要比較顧慮的是經濟部"},{"start":17364.12,"end":17384.942,"text":"是經濟部那我現在是說你站在勞動部的立場你怎麼因應長期缺工然後低薪的現象因為跨部會整合就是這樣子嘛勞動部有勞動部維護勞工權益的政策方向"},{"start":17386.636,"end":17391.346,"text":"經濟部有經濟部扶植並且確保產業持續發展的"},{"start":17395.987,"end":17397.908,"text":"我現在是問你﹖你們有沒有這一方面的政策﹖"},{"start":17423.371,"end":17431.476,"text":"是我們就是當然我們比如我們訓練人我們執訓人你們執訓人你們部長你知道參加政府辦理的執訓的參與人數也逐年在下降你知道嗎"},{"start":17441.121,"end":17454.074,"text":"是沒錯,那個疫情期間下降蠻多的疫情過了這一兩年跟疫情前有回升嗎?有回升到疫情前嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":17458.55,"end":17474.324,"text":"好跟委員報告我們現在因為疫情我這個就已經跳過好多題了是是是跟委員報告我們現在職業訓練現在就是說對於這個重點產業跟部位跟地方我們在合作現在訓練其實每年逐年在增加一直在增加"},{"start":17475.064,"end":17491.793,"text":"第2個就是剛剛委員提到就是說我們對於那個很多這個長期缺工這一個部分我們其實現在在應對這樣的一個議題上其實我們就是為他們也現在有做一些量身的訂做就是一些專案的一些沒有的機制那針對他的一個條件上我們也提供相關的時間時間的關係我問一個問題這個訓練增加"},{"start":17498.112,"end":17524.617,"text":"來接受質詢的人增加到底對於投入就業市場之間有沒有成正比?懂我意思嗎?你們會去做後續的追蹤嗎?跟委員報告我們追蹤有三個指標第一個就訓弄就業率第二個是關聯性第三個是他的薪資條件有沒有提升這三個我們大概都會有相關的評估"},{"start":17525.814,"end":17553.581,"text":"那我現在是問有沒有效果阿你這三個指標倒是下的不錯啦齁只是說到底來訓練跟他的就業之間有沒有正面的提升阿委員報告這個我們其實在訓後就業率其實每年都有在提升有在成長那這部分其實我們也可以提供給委員參考訓後就業率有在成長那署長"},{"start":17555.101,"end":17562.286,"text":"應該也要去關心看看就是就業了以後有沒有因為參加勞動部的質詢 薪資獲得滿足啦好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝楊耀委員接下來請陳英委員發言"},{"start":17587.464,"end":17587.625,"text":"委員好"},{"start":17600.219,"end":17604.242,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標?不是"},{"start":17621.109,"end":17645.398,"text":"你認為不是齁好這樣其實這樣講也沒錯啦那這個勞動參與率齁他是有區隔不同年齡層的那我們25到29歲的這個參與率大概是多少百分比我這邊不好意思我是其實我們已經也幫忙整理出來就是91.4%"},{"start":17650.801,"end":17679.398,"text":"百分之九十一點四好那這個這個媒書長我再請教就是勞動參與率的定義你們那個分母是什麼分子是什麼可不可以跟大家講一下勞動參與率的分母就是15歲以上的民間人口然後分子就是勞動力好那在這個分母的部分學生是否有算進有沒有算進去"},{"start":17680.492,"end":17696.695,"text":"有他就是15歲以上的民間人口學生有算進去那打工的學生也也算在裡面嗎對對對都有算你確定喔對對對好好哎這個這個但是你們資料看起來好像是"},{"start":17699.002,"end":17705.425,"text":"你覺得說這20年來的這個勞參率的變化很大嗎?其實勞參率近年都是在上升雖然整體的對都都在上升你的上升如果但我是問你大不大嗎變化大不大"},{"start":17729.412,"end":17745.576,"text":"就比例來看應該還好還好好就是我們也幫大家統計了嗎就是從9393年到現在一百一十二到一百一十二年統計也差不多兩個百分點而已好謝謝那你請回座那個可以請回座你第一次來備詢是不是"},{"start":17756.052,"end":17777.038,"text":"好下次表情可以柔和一點對不用那麼緊張好那個署長勞動參與率高他不代表就不會缺工那但是就是參與率低對於像我們臺灣這樣子的經濟持續成長的國家就非常有可能會缺工這樣你是同意的吧同意"},{"start":17778.259,"end":17790.152,"text":"我要提醒你們一點就是缺工它有沒有這個行職業的差異有沒有季節性的這些差異那你這個從這個勞動參與率這個數字能告訴大家嗎?"},{"start":17799.603,"end":17824.026,"text":"跟委員報告,勞參率因為它只是一個工級勞動力工級但是缺工有時候會產生在那個需求的改變所以很多產業的屬性的不同其他跟這個勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯那剛剛大概提出說如果目前以製造業像製造業確實因為它有些因為我們是以出口導向有時候是外貿有時候有季節性的一些訂單的因素"},{"start":17825.967,"end":17845.141,"text":"所以這個勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦那本席還要再問喔就是發展署目前的這個主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職長還是哪一個比較困難"},{"start":17847.639,"end":17876.879,"text":"跟文報其實兩個都蠻困難我們勞參率因為現在集中在大概以目前的分析主要是青年勞參率中高齡跟婦女勞參率那這裡面因為他的影響的成因其實非常多這也是我們在努力那至於說缺工因為缺工又會涉及到整個產業的一個發展未來他在整個產業能夠提供的一些條件待遇還有一些他的工作型態比如說現在外界也在關心是不是透過一些自動化等等"},{"start":17877.339,"end":17890.733,"text":"那這個又跟產業的主管計劃有關對你這樣講是都沒錯然後甚至的參與率因為這個牽扯到生育率勞動力人口多少的問題你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子所以這個又更困難"},{"start":17893.115,"end":17909.963,"text":"你們有沒有比較分析說現在年輕人的初就業的年齡是幾歲那相較於這個5年前或者是10年前大概延遲了多少時間還有這個不同學歷還有科系是不是差異之間差異是很大的"},{"start":17911.113,"end":17937.814,"text":"因為確實因為我們國內其實很多年還是就是升學主義所以大學畢業很多就是以這個升學為主剛剛大概委員提到的因為大概以目前我們在分析大部分大學22歲畢業以後大部分他可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職那這裡面可能確實會拖一段時間尤其可能我們也在努力就那個初次尋職這個部分我們盡量來協作"},{"start":17939.735,"end":17949.101,"text":"所以你們現在就是說你們的那個發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎我們有資料有相關資料但算齊全嗎"},{"start":17951.144,"end":17978.115,"text":"我們現在目前跟委員我們大概有分析就是說目前的這個15到29歲大概他的初次尋職的這個年齡層這個有第二個就是說他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的那個那個間隔大概我們也曾經所以我剛剛有特別點到了還有不同學歷不同科系等等這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查好不好好因為你們發端署裡面應該有這些這些資料"},{"start":17979.736,"end":17997.316,"text":"那年輕人剛出道的時候剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少這些資訊是不是應該就是要很正確無誤的還有以及非常及時的來發布那也就是說也"},{"start":17998.891,"end":18020.583,"text":"也要了解就是說為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因啦那我大概就點出這些那如果就是說你們對於這個缺工的行業行職業他們的職缺然後縣市地區工作內容及起薪就是說"},{"start":18021.483,"end":18043.853,"text":"如果都沒有掌握清楚的話那自然就是說你們就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動嘛然後也沒有辦法去健全我們的勞動市場了那所以關鍵在於說資訊缺乏以及這個不透明造成的問題的誤判那我們就會落於就是說一直用過去的這個方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題啊"},{"start":18044.913,"end":18072.403,"text":"那例如說像現在Uber Eats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題那雖然它一來門檻低再來是非常的透明連那個人到哪裡了多少錢都非常清清楚楚的那你們這個你們發展署的人力還有這個經費其實都是非常充裕的而且在勞動部裡面都還有統計處還有這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所也有這個勞動市場研究組"},{"start":18073.203,"end":18088.461,"text":"那為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢而是就是說去捨禁求援甚至說要多花錢多花錢去指定外面的教授來做針對你們想要的答案做研究"},{"start":18092.151,"end":18117.749,"text":"我這樣提醒是,署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是由我剛剛講的那個狀況還是我亂講的我覺得我們這個應該跟穩的方向是一致而且你們以後好好就近利用一下這個研究所嘛他們在那裡應該敞開大門等你們來啊對,我們就跟他們一起合作"},{"start":18118.137,"end":18145.378,"text":"那接下來就是我要請部長上來因為上個禮拜老研所發布了一個淨零檢探的報告那重點就是明年2025年的時候因為這個淨零政策可能造成上萬人的失業環境部非常積極馬上就增加他們說會增加兩萬多的人次的這個就業機會"},{"start":18147.359,"end":18173.313,"text":"就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平台就是彭部長他特別表示說會透過綠領平台來推動就業那我想要請教何部長那個彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎您有沒有清楚說這個平台的內容是什麼因為看起來有點像是媒合就業你覺得可行性如何"},{"start":18175.305,"end":18203.163,"text":"我們在發布報告之後彭部長有找我討論當然我們通過電話我也指派我的長賜跟環境部對口那我們先環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平台所以他發布之後你們才聚在一起是,我們也沒有聚在一起電話討論至少有聚在一起了那如果說我們真的但你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":18204.684,"end":18217.512,"text":"當然如果就綠領喔綠領的形態的工作相信環境部會比我們清楚太多啦所以由他們來整合這一個部分的就是針對勞工轉型啦他針對綠領的訓練啦好看起來是一個好像還蠻不錯的一個創舉是是是是"},{"start":18226.417,"end":18247.085,"text":"如果說未來真的可以透過這樣的平台可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的那你們未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理委員他有沒有下到職類媒合這我也不了解也不是不了解我還不確定因為他才剛開始開過第一次平台會議而已"},{"start":18256.229,"end":18266.353,"text":"我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益"},{"start":18268.094,"end":18292.206,"text":"我就是有點擔心啦因為第一光是有這個需要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平台其實就是一個大工程了至少就說你們開過一次會大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念喔那而且就算真的沒合到合適的職缺那接下來喔勞動權益的保障也不是彭啟明環境部部長他可以負責的"},{"start":18293.646,"end":18318.246,"text":"好所以我就講到這樣這個應該很明顯吧勞動權益因為他創了這個所以才是三部會的平台對所以總而言之好缺工的問題他是需要跨部會一起來整合來合作那發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題當然當然那所以讓民眾了解"},{"start":18319.65,"end":18319.83,"text":"我相信就是說﹖"},{"start":18335.447,"end":18335.467,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":18358.86,"end":18385.128,"text":"謝謝陳盈委員那今天的會議詢答全部結束委員吳春成委員圖圈及所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定本院會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午九點繼續開會"},{"start":18393.96,"end":18399.811,"text":"謝謝我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道我知道"},{"start":18429.037,"end":18429.878,"text":"請問下禮拜"},{"start":18456.598,"end":18457.62,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"16220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16220","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2db2ea4a3bfaaca62b9e2506b9d78cd73c0202062f76816a17f3eafb132a086abc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-30T08:30:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T11:00:00+08:00","duration":8969,"影片長度":"02:29:29","委員發言時間":"08:30:31 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夠以第一島鏈、產業鏈、民主之鏈、三鏈的應對讓台灣得以朝人工智慧科技之島的目標來邁進"},{"start":1151.445,"end":1169.936,"text":"那麼針對我們海外情勢與僑務工作部分以上分幾點來跟各位委員進行說明首先是針對我們在僑界協助臺灣與國際接軌方面那麼近年來僑胞都非常支持臺灣參與國際組織無論是WHO或是ACAO"},{"start":1173.878,"end":1173.938,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":1196.57,"end":1203.493,"text":"臺灣民主成果臺灣民主成果臺灣民主成果臺灣民主成果臺灣民主成果臺灣民主成果"},{"start":1226.104,"end":1253.458,"text":"注意觀察到本會橋界的一些加入國際組織的活動其次中國對橋界的統戰手段是越來越多元面對橋界的統戰威脅更是本會需要高度注意之處所以包括近期國慶慶典剛結束今年以來我們有特別注意到比方說在菲律賓"},{"start":1254.218,"end":1254.498,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1270.316,"end":1293.13,"text":"針對各種假訊息傷害橋界對臺灣認同方面從國際評比跟各項專業研究指出臺灣是在全球受到境外假訊息攻擊最嚴重的國家連續11年名列第一個受攻擊嚴重的國家因此海內外僑胞一起攜手面對資訊"},{"start":1295.812,"end":1298.938,"text":"假訊息或是認知作戰已經刻不容緩第5項是針對"},{"start":1303.799,"end":1329.024,"text":"新的產業鏈重組所造成的新一波移民現象那麼近年來臺灣有非常多大型企業前往海外設立分公司那麼同時呢也有不少原本投資中國的橋台商一轉往東南亞北美洲以及印度等地投資形成新的一波橋商的移民那麼在這一部分呢是一個新的情勢發展那麼其次呢最近的"},{"start":1332.825,"end":1342.371,"text":"新的資訊是我們本年的國慶總共有高達4600多名報名那麼最終有反台進行報到的有4140名的僑胞那麼有將近4000人都有參加國慶晚會及慶祝大會的活動那麼這一次我們也特別邀請了34家旅行社規劃了162條路線提供僑胞"},{"start":1361.344,"end":1366.166,"text":"新的僑務工作以及行銷全球的相關布局以下僅就6個部分來跟委員進行說明首先是在今年9月10號、11號"},{"start":1386.115,"end":1398.07,"text":"12號幾天所召開的僑務委員會議此次會議共有來自167名僑務委員及海內外的列席代表出席也獲得賴總統及蕭副總統都親臨現場致詞以及參加閉幕典禮"},{"start":1405.714,"end":1419.505,"text":"這個會議過程非常順利而且也充分討論那麼僑務委員也多次表達對大院立法院的感謝因為歷來大院都對於僑務委員會議有高度的重視"},{"start":1422.81,"end":1451.205,"text":"那麼在僑務委員會議的這個過程當中呢我們特別有進行各項的國事建言那麼也邀請到各部會的代表及產官學員的單位能夠列席共同進行討論那麼本次的討論相當的熱烈有非常多的建議以及意見表達我們也會這樣彙整那麼在建議與討論的部分呢我們總共分成九個不同的"},{"start":1452.586,"end":1473.146,"text":"政策議題,讓委員們可以分組進行相關的討論。其次,針對擴大服務政府的量能方面,持續與政府溝通。這部分,我們特別依循我們行政院在照顧以及發展的雙主軸上,用行動以及服務的方式來傳達"},{"start":1475.888,"end":1498.34,"text":"我們對僑民的政府的關注以及溫暖那麼在持續這個部分呢我們除了即時的使用數位的傳播科技那麼也打造多元的訊息平台我們現在的6加1平台基本上都是官網那透過這些平台可以無時差的快速傳遞各項的海內外訊息讓僑界即時的掌握正確的資訊"},{"start":1505.748,"end":1511.059,"text":"除此之外我們也用行動積極的跟各界僑界來進行"},{"start":1514.551,"end":1533.725,"text":"沟通、對話以及活動,包括今年以來本人從5月份出席到英國、荷蘭、挪威等地,除了出席歐洲台商會的活動、青商的活動,也首度造訪非洲奈及利亞,舉辦了座談會,充分了解我們橋台商在海外發展的"},{"start":1538.608,"end":1538.648,"text":"主席"},{"start":1555.954,"end":1570.778,"text":"連續三個月在菲律賓、越南、泰國等地都有風災造成我們在當地的橋台商有部分的損失我們也都祭出專案來透過海外信保基金輔導我們的橋台商盡力的恢復他們的營業"},{"start":1576.279,"end":1593.825,"text":"目前我們6加1的社群平台是除了原本的僑務電子報以及官網之外我們在新的社群網路包括YouTube、Facebook、Line、Twitter、Instagram"},{"start":1593.985,"end":1594.445,"text":"臺灣的各項訊息傳遞到海外"},{"start":1620.063,"end":1623.046,"text":"第三大項是針對行銷,促進我們台灣的華語文的教學,持續的鞏固橋校的營運本會自2021年開始啟動本專案以來,持續的在各個橋區讓橋校逐漸轉型"},{"start":1641.787,"end":1642.148,"text":"臺灣華語文學習中心臺灣華語文學習中心"},{"start":1661.989,"end":1673.768,"text":"希望目標能夠達成100所這是我們第一階段的目標那我們也持續在檢討下一個階段第二階段是不是擴大在其他包括大洋洲加拿大等國來辦理的活動"},{"start":1677.369,"end":1706.016,"text":"在行銷方面我們特別在過去有跟部分的這一些跨國公司也主動去尋找合作的機會因此從今年開始我們有跟美國加州北加州的google開始開辦了這個華語科技專班那麼至今已經進行到第二個學期也受到google的這些工程師以及"},{"start":1706.576,"end":1706.936,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1728.607,"end":1745.258,"text":"主流學校的教師以及臺灣華語文學習中心的教師都返國來參加演習活動那麼今年呢美國又有另外的四團法國有三團分別是這些主流教師帶著他們的學生來臺灣參訪這個都是我們在過去兩三年推動臺灣華語文學習中心以及組建主流教師的這個相關這個活動"},{"start":1758.507,"end":1758.547,"text":"主席"},{"start":1782.768,"end":1799.605,"text":"接下來第4個字針對著有關於臺商在深耕發展的部分如何來擴大經貿的實力那麼這一部分第一個我們在過去針對著歐洲的部分"},{"start":1802.165,"end":1816.134,"text":"近三年來可以說加強了非常多這方面的聯繫,所以我們包括在立陶宛、義大利等國,還有阿聯酋、印度、帛琉都成立了新的台商會,希望能夠加強這個世界性的一個聯繫。"},{"start":1818.916,"end":1821.318,"text":"配合僑台商,可以做各種交流跟鏈結。除此之外,我們持續發展,配合國家的重大政策,開辦各項研習活動及專班,包括有數位資安、十三團、邀訪團,淨零碳排、ESG等等的研習活動。"},{"start":1841.437,"end":1841.457,"text":"．述"},{"start":1858.341,"end":1869.255,"text":"除此之外我們也在近年來持續的透過我們的輕商選拔的活動以及精品獎的選拔來促進所有的商業的發展"},{"start":1874.842,"end":1890.993,"text":"至今在全球已經選拔超過600位卓越的橋台商以及青商也建立了平台持續的也將海外信保基金的相關方案提供給他們瞭解跟運用到113年9月底為止目前有承辦了257件總共的融資金額是1億8688萬美金"},{"start":1904.882,"end":1932.016,"text":"第5項是針對僑生培養方面本會從10年前開始試辦3加4計畫以來到目前為止3加4的產學合作專班4年制的產學合作專班以及海青班等等都有繼續優化的來開辦這些課程也受到僑界非常大的肯定因此在今年度"},{"start":1933.237,"end":1952.798,"text":"一百一十二學年度的專班學生統計已經高達一萬一千六百二十四人那麼產系專班從去年前2022年前年開始本來只有兩千四百八十四人那去年已經提到"},{"start":1953.499,"end":1956.243,"text":"已經升高到4069人那今年度我們更錄取高達6323人那目前已經到9月底為止來報到的有超過5000多人那麼我們會持續的在這個基礎上來發展"},{"start":1969.139,"end":1977.184,"text":"那麼四年制的產學合作班也是從原本的52人上升到去年的295人到今年已經超過1000人所以都有非常高度的成長的這個趨勢那我們也提供各項的獎助學金幫助這些可能是親韓家庭或者成績特別優異的學生能夠爭取他們來到台灣受到更多的這個培訓跟教育"},{"start":1995.576,"end":1996.697,"text":"同時,從去年開辦的畢業博覽會,去年我們是只有在臺北辦理一場實體的。"},{"start":2017.614,"end":2017.774,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2032.824,"end":2032.924,"text":"主席"},{"start":2053.686,"end":2055.648,"text":"至今56862人是通過評點制合可留在臺灣工作的其中僑生是佔了18912人"},{"start":2069.14,"end":2082.288,"text":"這不是人次是人在這邊跟委員說明最後一項我們是要針對海內外的青年交流向下扎根由於近年來我們的移民已經有非常顯著的這個"},{"start":2084.269,"end":2084.369,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2106.274,"end":2111.115,"text":"聯合國內青年有機會透過橋界到海外去歷練瞭解世界的變化也對國際社會有更大的一個交流跟參與的機會另外我們也同樣的也辦理了國內的相關活動包括我們也邀請海外的青年返台參加英語服務營的活動"},{"start":2133.439,"end":2133.579,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2149.966,"end":2150.186,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2166.747,"end":2174.569,"text":"僑界非常支持很多父母表示他們的17歲的孩子有了這樣的一個培訓的協會來幫助他們尋找自己的認同有團體的一個群組的學習成長對他們在文化教育以及個人的身心的提升上面領導能力的提升都有顯著的幫助"},{"start":2194.234,"end":2196.222,"text":"這個已經從過去到現在培養了8000人次"},{"start":2198.502,"end":2220.717,"text":"除此之外,我們有海外的青年搭橋計畫今年首度破2800個台灣的優秀大學生來報名到目前為止,因為每一次我們都只能招收有限的人數以今年的規模來講,我們招收60人,2800人來爭取說實在是非常激烈"},{"start":2225.88,"end":2231.082,"text":"那我們也看到這些學生的優秀優異的表現所以我們也持續在這個基礎上發展各項的交流計畫除了原本這60位同學可以去海外以外我們看到這些沒有入局的同學我們也持續擴大希望讓他們有機會包括我們在北美洲的臺灣醫師人協會反臺進行所謂的國際研討會因此我們也安排國內來報名我們這個計畫的"},{"start":2253.231,"end":2253.311,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2273.71,"end":2279.712,"text":"除此之外,我們也在國中小部分持續的開辦練練台灣計劃。去年分別成功媒合了312位學生,今年有350位學生。這個計劃也非常受到海外的家長歡迎,他們是短期的在台灣的一般中小學就讀。這個計劃我們持續的會來擴大辦理。"},{"start":2297.518,"end":2312.09,"text":"最後結語就是我們會持續的向下扎根那僑務工作如果沒有第二代第三代的往下延伸將來的發展一定是受到極大的瓶頸因此我們在"},{"start":2314.252,"end":2314.552,"text":"請各位委員指教,謝謝大家"},{"start":2335.592,"end":2356.897,"text":"好謝謝委員長委員長請回那我們現在開始進行詢答今天詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言登記截止那如果有委員要提臨時提案請在10點半前提出11點左右本席會試詢答狀況進行處理首先請羅美玲委員上台諮詢"},{"start":2365.833,"end":2369.136,"text":"謝謝主席有請徐佳青委員長委員長請委員長早安委員長早安委員長本期今天想就這個三家市產學專班的一些狀況跟委員長做一個探討那產學專班開辦到現在已經有10年了可是這10年其實賦品是不斷"},{"start":2395.214,"end":2399.439,"text":"那其實我們這項專班的這個設立最主要是培養僑生的一些專業技能那以目前台灣人力缺乏的狀況之下我們本來是希望說他們畢業之後能夠繼續的留台那進一步成為符合我國產業"},{"start":2411.992,"end":2412.152,"text":"語言是最大的問題"},{"start":2430.107,"end":2446.854,"text":"根據三家市僑生專班的招生簡章對於申請學生的要求是必須具備華語文能力測驗A1以上的標準可是我們都知道A1其實就是一個入門基礎的等級那如果讓這些學生進到學校去聽一個比較"},{"start":2448.574,"end":2448.834,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2473.643,"end":2474.383,"text":"三家式產學專班"},{"start":2489.031,"end":2504.365,"text":"其實就是一個高中一年級的這個年齡嘛那其實他們在聽的方面其實有很大的這個問題所以我們發現說像過去其實有一些學生他們也來澄清到辦公室來澄清所以我們也收到一些教學單位的一些意見"},{"start":2505.086,"end":2505.126,"text":"主席"},{"start":2523.737,"end":2550.795,"text":"那再來因為三家市他們一進來其實就是要輪掉實習嘛三個月在學校三個月在在這個產業端那對產業端的廠商來講也是覺得非常的吃力因為在孩子來實習的時候完全聽不懂他們在講什麼所以在實習方面其實呢也是非常的不扎實那像之前我有看到一個報導就是有一位同學到這個長照機構去做實習可是呢跟護理師還有跟這個阿公阿嬤都沒有辦法溝通所以就"},{"start":2551.769,"end":2551.789,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":2568.131,"end":2587.26,"text":"委員長像之前我也討論過就是說像孩子們來台灣念書其實這個語言方面在他們的母國是不是要必須要先做一定程度的加強那我所了解的話甚至有些華語文能力測驗都是偽造的為了要來念書是偽造的這個部分喔這個想請教一下委員長要如何克服呢"},{"start":2589.252,"end":2592.035,"text":"委員剛剛所講的這些現象跟問題確實在過去幾年我們在現場教學現場有發現類似的狀況那也是為什麼我們必須要把很多的東西做一些調整跟改變那就語言的這一方面來說"},{"start":2608.567,"end":2608.727,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2625.129,"end":2628.67,"text":"馬來西亞和台北學生之外其他國家在不同的層次上 華語是有很大落差的過去我們在華校的設置上 因為其他國家有排華的相關問題以致於有些困難 但近年來我們開始想要恢復多一點的據點"},{"start":2650.718,"end":2674.813,"text":"想要來台灣讀書的孩子可以在自己母國的時候就加強他的華語教育所以這個A1等級事實上委員說的對他們其實來參加考試的時候很多是背答案的那個就是來自母席班教他們的一些技巧所以為什麼我們要二次的面試面試換一個問法他馬上就答不出來問他說你耳朵在哪裡他就比眼睛"},{"start":2675.714,"end":2690.341,"text":"如果這樣子問題就很大了對沒有錯所以這是為什麼我們必須用這個新的模式來進行那這樣的學生我們都會跟他說沒關係你今年沒有入曲但是你明年你好好學華語等到你有一個程度你再來台灣"},{"start":2691.521,"end":2713.706,"text":"這個部分我們也都是在持續加強那因為教育部在明年開始他們會成立三個華語基地分別在菲律賓在印尼以及在越南三個國家那目前這三個國家這個教材是由本會來授權提供因為我們現在都是用雙語教材的模式而於這些國家他們沒有大量的華語基礎"},{"start":2715.566,"end":2725.42,"text":"所以我們用雙語教材的教學這個來提升學生的學習力是有幫助的另外一方面在國內的部分我們也開始要強化就是國內的這些華語課程的老師他們過去只用傳統的教法教台灣本地生那當然會引不起"},{"start":2733.11,"end":2733.53,"text":"臺灣整體的實習以及在學校的這個成績"},{"start":2758.109,"end":2774.928,"text":"那所以這個部分我們是有精進的方案正在執行當中那委員所提醒我們的這些點我們也會持續來關注看看哪些部分還可以加強那華語的部分確實是如同你關注的這樣它是確實是關鍵之所在是那委員長請教一下剛剛你有提到這個海外的這個華語文的這個基地"},{"start":2778.092,"end":2792.824,"text":"她是針對說要來上這個三家市僑生專班的學生不只那個全部外籍生也可以外籍生都可以參加那一定要經過這個基地的這個上課之後認證嗎是叫他們認證之後他能夠過來嗎還是說想要去上再去上會不會說這效果若只是說讓大家就是說我想上就去上那會效果會比較不好"},{"start":2800.69,"end":2805.514,"text":"因為基地初步可能還是會先篩選一下就是讓有部分基礎的人先優先進來那去強化他的華語基礎那課程結束之後依著他要進行的各種不同專班他有些可能是參加這個教育部的新南向專班"},{"start":2818.143,"end":2818.303,"text":"外籍生及僑生"},{"start":2834.115,"end":2853.662,"text":"請教委員長像這孩子進來之後我們有沒有定期去學校了解說學校的教學品質還有學生他們在這個就學當中有沒有遇到什麼問題需要協助的我們有去了解嗎我們這部分有沒有去了解今年開始我們有定期的去發放問卷過去是沒有我們今年才開始"},{"start":2855.042,"end":2883.334,"text":"過去都是只有詢問老師而已沒有直接針對學生但是我們每一年呢都會把學生的這個組織的領導人找來進行座談會所以今年開始我在想說竟然我們這個三家是已經走了四年一直都是畢業生留台的這個效果很差而且評價也不好所以我在想針對這個三家是我們委員其實沒有很差應該這樣講他如果有七年完整讀完留下來的比例都高達八九成"},{"start":2884.314,"end":2884.735,"text":"106年是今年畢業嘛對不對今年畢業"},{"start":2899.764,"end":2903.566,"text":"那我們所得到的數據就是說其實他進來的時候暨高端進來報到是1034人可是到了他完成三年的學業其實留下來只有64%去升暨專端嘛可是暨專端畢業的其實只有31%是今年113年今年的這個畢業人數所以我們比較105 104 103其實我們留下來這個也只有三成左右"},{"start":2926.877,"end":2926.977,"text":"委員長徐佳青"},{"start":2945.772,"end":2965.057,"text":"我們後來有做一個資料就是說我們看他如果真的完整的七年讀完因為他必須讀完七年他才能正式留下來工作那如果他沒有中間就離開的有絕大多數可能有學習的這個確實落差有一部分是因為他們全部七年都沒有假期所以他們想要回家的時候就變成被迫只能就離開學校了"},{"start":2967.538,"end":2972.361,"text":"所以沒有這個休學制度對這些學生產學來說現在這個是我們正在積極思考的因為長達七年如果這些孩子不能有一段比較完整的時間去返家的時候他最後被迫他就是休學就是退學了這他們七年當中可以返家吧他們可以返家但是都是時間很短因為他們只能搭配我們最長的假期就是春節那春節就是一個禮拜到九天十天不等那對於這些海外的孩子來說他很希望說"},{"start":2996.658,"end":3015.681,"text":"委員長您的意思就是說OK好那我們現在留下來是64%665人106年你也是說665人其實有八成是完成七年的學業是不是是這樣子的意思嗎是的是的所以那這樣子的話其實留下來的人八成的話其實也差不多四五百人左右"},{"start":3016.061,"end":3016.661,"text":"委員我跟你的目標是一樣的我很期待"},{"start":3036.048,"end":3036.588,"text":"感謝羅委員感謝羅委員謝謝羅委員"},{"start":3065.253,"end":3066.915,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩委員長。委員長,11月底在馬來西亞吉隆坡有亞洲台灣商會聯合總會的活動,這個會或者這個活動對我國的重要性在哪裡?"},{"start":3087.689,"end":3097.154,"text":"這個是全亞洲19個國家商會所聯合舉辦的每年一度的活動那他們一年會辦兩次的會議一次會在台灣舉辦一次會辦在總會長的所在國"},{"start":3104.857,"end":3127.985,"text":"臺商在亞洲歐洲美洲其實賴總統講過經濟日不落國所以其實臺商在我們的僑務裡面我認為是一個重要的事務那吉隆坡馬來西亞又有另外一個意義因為馬來西亞在外交上跟臺灣坦白講我們還有很多可以努力的地方所以如果透過臺商的活動"},{"start":3128.925,"end":3154.545,"text":"在馬來西亞不管是在經貿或者在實質的彼此的關係上能夠有些推展其實對台灣對馬來西亞都是好事所以我現在請問一下你們有沒有掌握到我們國內要出席的官員國會議員的人數大概多少目前有個別的來跟我們詢問但是還沒有正式報名對還沒有會診那有沒有計畫會診成一個團"},{"start":3156.705,"end":3177.567,"text":"我們很期待外委會可以組成一個正式的團那這樣子的話我覺得你現在才問我怎麼處理我坦白講我聽說因為我們台商的會長在國會是江啟臣副院長所以我想這是超越黨派的因為台商也沒有黨派色彩就是我們台灣人在海外經商努力"},{"start":3178.328,"end":3201.356,"text":"所以建他很重要那我倒是希望僑委會跟外交部這邊就我們的官員不管是經貿官員僑務官員或者是我們的國會層次的部分除了去參加這個商會的活動以外也可以促進一些台馬雙方可以交流的部分那我接下來要問比較進一步的東西了你能去嗎"},{"start":3203.39,"end":3229.831,"text":"簽證有沒有問題跟委員報告我剛剛從馬來西亞回來對我剛剛去參加了兩個大會一個是上週末在這是good sign這是好事情是因為我們常常出席在某些場合某些國家會變成政府的官員他會不讓主官去有時候讓副手去那做一些政治上的他們的考量所以"},{"start":3230.491,"end":3245.759,"text":"這一次吉隆坡的亞洲臺灣商會聯合總會委員長會親自帶隊是這樣規劃目前沒有意外目前沒有意外沒有任何打壓的情形還沒有聽說有這種問題我希望不要本席今天質詢完就有了"},{"start":3247.803,"end":3273.588,"text":"謝謝委員關心我很期待委員外委會可以順利我知道我們外交國防委員會部分黨派好多位委員都會專程去利用一個weekend也不占我們上班的時間那去給不管是林凱明總會長或者是相關的台商給他們最強的後盾跟支持好下一個我要請教你的是我們澳洲我其實問了很多次"},{"start":3275.088,"end":3291.278,"text":"臺澳關係很微妙我們跟澳洲其實人口差不多然後澳洲的地理位置剛好跟我們南北相反所以在氣候上是互補然後在產業上也互補它也是我們國家不管是天然氣重要的能源輸入國"},{"start":3292.439,"end":3309.801,"text":"然後我們的鳳梨在遭受中國無理打壓的時候澳洲當年也開放了我印象100萬多少就是開放了我們去罐的那個鳳梨出口到澳洲所以臺澳在農業或者是銷商是有相當好的合作基礎"},{"start":3310.562,"end":3338.608,"text":"那我們台灣有很多年輕人打工遊學等等選擇地點也是澳洲那也有產生一些問題需要我們駐外人員的協助那我一直在問一件事情當全世界注意到中國的滲透無所不在不管是海外公安或者是孔子學院所以從美國歐洲澳洲開始不讓孔子學院進入他們的體系裡面而他們還是要學華語文的時候台灣"},{"start":3339.548,"end":3357.721,"text":"美國是聯邦政府公開推薦說你如果要學Mandarin台灣是一個good choice就是說他們正式推薦台灣可以來學華語文那所以在那一波美國聯邦政府對他們的公務人員的學習的獎學金是鼓勵來台灣學習"},{"start":3359.202,"end":3377.997,"text":"歐洲也開始那個時候我就問了澳洲這個問題說為什麼我們在澳洲我們開設這麼多華語文學習中心到現在已經84所了我相信對你們工作力其實負擔蠻重的僑委會是一個資源不多業務遼闊的單位那為什麼澳洲到現在還沒有"},{"start":3378.519,"end":3379.961,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們上一期的計畫是從2021年到2024年結束那現在要進行第二期計畫的撰寫那我們現在確實委員長期的關注我們有在第二期計畫把澳洲也拉入"},{"start":3394.497,"end":3394.898,"text":"委員長我給你建議就是說"},{"start":3410.718,"end":3429.694,"text":"這些業務除了是僑務除了是我們國力的展現其實語文是窗戶透過語言這扇窗可以看見台灣民主多元重視人權或者我們有我們的可以展現的國力的部分所以這是一個窗戶那當然就跟著外交的佈局在走"},{"start":3430.635,"end":3449.152,"text":"在南太平洋現在是臺灣跟美國共同協力甚至加上日本在經營的外交那澳洲又是南太的領導型的國家所以澳洲設置語言中心你剛才講的紐西蘭啊南太平洋很多我們太平洋的好朋友都可以來這邊學習"},{"start":3451.574,"end":3468.449,"text":"就你的估計澳洲的華語文學習中心我們僑委會有沒有一個工作的agenda設定什麼時候會來設立雖然說前4年剛剛我說的2024年以前這一階段是因為預算編列的時候只有框定美國跟歐洲"},{"start":3469.83,"end":3473.511,"text":"但是我們下一個階段第二階段我們的中長期計畫我們要擴大不同的國家的時候我們會把它包進來但事實上我們今年到明年我們就開始做準備了就是說讓我們這些雙語教材開始提供給部分橋校有意想來申請這個台灣華語文學習中心設立的橋校或橋團的老師們讓他們提前瞭解我們這套教材的運用"},{"start":3496.718,"end":3512.276,"text":"委員長當然你有你的工作進程我們委員會我希望了解一下我們的預算然後你們的明年度的計畫是什麼後年度的計畫是什麼那臺灣是AI的製造大國就是AI運用的排名40多吧"},{"start":3513.217,"end":3539.658,"text":"那我們政府希望讓臺灣的AI運用去用AI能夠超越韓國跟我們的硬體生產匹配嘛那韓國現在是第6名40幾名要弄到第6名以前只有很多努力所以我是建議我們這一些華語文的學習中心我們海外的喬教各方面的其實AI的導入跟運用是一個不管是演算法APP那算力當國家級或國家級的"},{"start":3540.819,"end":3569.847,"text":"是一個很重要是資料庫是所以如果透過AI輔導學習你們就會無遠弗屆是的那也可以收集資料庫建立屬於我們特色的AI那個叫主權AI是所以不管我們現在主要是華語文我希望未來看到你們透過AI的資料庫建構起來有人想傳教士想要來台灣想要熟悉台語是客語是原住民語是透過僑委會這個窗戶可以接觸到教育部建構的"},{"start":3570.587,"end":3597.188,"text":"多重語言的學習這些AI的能量我希望在僑委會的工作報告未來可以看到這樣的事好的這樣好不好好的謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝委員長好謝謝第一位委員謝謝委員長下一個我自己好謝謝我們下一個進行詢答的委員是沈伯陽委員"},{"start":3602.554,"end":3604.695,"text":"謝謝主席 有請委員長來 委員長蕭委員早好 委員長早那這個很高興今天能夠再跟僑委會討論一些相關的事項那這個今天比較不熱鬧今天隔壁很熱鬧啦希望我們不要再被這些噪音所影響那今天有兩個問題第一個還是僑界聯繫的問題另外一個是中國滲透的問題是"},{"start":3632.192,"end":3649.689,"text":"一開始這個是我在4月的時候大概有問過就是在海外的台灣人可以做的事情那因為總統最近也成立了這一個全台灣這個全社會的韌性的這樣的一個委員會所以台灣尤其是以內政相關的這些相關盤點的業務也變得越來越多"},{"start":3651.311,"end":3678.938,"text":"那4月的時候呢那時候我們有齁這個我記得那時候在海外也有提到就是這一個相關的這個民防訓練齁民防體系本來就很重要那其實海外台灣人也是蠻多可以做的事情是的那我記得那時候在立陶宛的時候有跟委員長討論過去年有這件事情齁那執訓的時候也問過說有在規劃啦所以呢這邊是我們那時候有想到一些可能在海外的台灣人一樣能夠協助當台灣今天陷入危險的時候能夠做的事情"},{"start":3679.398,"end":3682,"text":"僑務委員會對這方面的規劃大概有哪一些委員我們會利用既有我們原本都在做的事情來升級跟強化比如說歷年來我們很多天災的時候海外僑界都會募款募資所以像這樣的這個聯繫的穩定"},{"start":3696.81,"end":3696.95,"text":"主席"},{"start":3715.74,"end":3715.88,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3734.103,"end":3746.686,"text":"尤其因為近年來在海外中共的統戰手法確實是非常的多那所以我們這個持續性的包括這一次我們的這個僑務委員會議來自全球的僑務委員總共167個我們就開了兩門這個專題演講第一門就是如何辨識假訊息以及防止詐騙那第二門呢我們就是談到這個如何用"},{"start":3758.149,"end":3758.169,"text":"委員長"},{"start":3774.651,"end":3774.751,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3793.8,"end":3793.98,"text":"主席"},{"start":3824.341,"end":3847.478,"text":"來彙整謝謝委員長那剛剛我覺得提到有幾個點非常的重要就是關於資訊的散佈這件事情因為在這一個比如說戰爭爆發的時候有可能資訊是不流通的那我們需要把正確的資訊送給這一個送給國際社會那剛剛有提到就是說因為我們現在其實可能就要先做一些相關的也不能說演練但至少練習就是說資訊怎麼給他們他們怎麼傳遞我覺得這個機制一定要存在"},{"start":3851.741,"end":3879.335,"text":"所以像這一個我們最近看到這一個2758號決議其實就是我們看到海外很多台灣人是站出來的那但是他們站出來的時候一定手上也是需要一些資料嘛比較需要一些論述嘛所以如果今天僑委會跟海外這個僑報的這個聯繫海外台灣人的聯繫資訊是很快的能夠到他們的手上然後他們也很快的能夠組織不管是上街然後還是呢去等廣告等等之類的這個機制如果能夠越做越快的話"},{"start":3879.835,"end":3881.316,"text":"提到金融問題,如果台灣人要捐錢,會有崩潰的問題"},{"start":3898.251,"end":3919.583,"text":"所以這一件事情要怎麼去建立有可能可以請專家也跟海外的台灣人講一下物流跟金融而且物流畢竟我們在海外很多都是商人嘛做貿易嘛所以他對物流其實非常的了解他可能也有長期配合的公司所以這一些他在關鍵的時候他可能會怎麼去request對方要怎麼去幫忙一開始可能就要有這樣的一些想法委員"},{"start":3920.543,"end":3938.154,"text":"提示對我們來說很重要剛好我也想到幾個例子因為2020年因為疫情發生那我們由於要台灣CanHelp所以當時是我們把物資運出去所以當時運了一些防疫物資或者是口罩這件事情也讓我們的僑界大量的學習了怎麼樣快遞把物資匯整"},{"start":3940.815,"end":3946.999,"text":"運送以及散播那所以這樣反向來想也是一樣的所以對我們來講這些一次又一次做台灣Can Help的事情事實上是反而對我們的這個組織聯繫是很有幫助的那還有歷年來的這個所謂加入國際組織的這些宣導活動也讓僑界尤其是向下扎根的說我們更年輕的這些台灣的這些"},{"start":3966.773,"end":3967.033,"text":"有看到幾個就是今天這個好像比較"},{"start":3994.185,"end":4018.759,"text":"2758號我今天跳過了因為剛剛有稍微提到2758號那就是說這個業務報告裡面有提到就是發揮草根的力量向國際爭取這個支持這個剛剛委員長有提到那我看到的蠻多都是跟廣告有關或者活動、論壇、遊行各式各樣都會有那剛剛有講到第二第三代這件事情因為現在第二第三代畢竟是在網路世界有時候跟他們來講是非常的重要"},{"start":4019.379,"end":4046.418,"text":"對那中國其實很擅長做在網路世界的這個宣傳台灣去接觸各世界各地的網紅那現在很多尤其是像美國英國的網紅他其實認知到台灣這件事情所以他很願意甚至根本就不是有任何的花費那他可能親自去找台灣的一些比如說高中生大學生來做一些拍攝那其實僑委會可以作為一個橋樑是因為當他們有這樣的意願的時候有這個橋樑其實對我們來講會是一個很大的幫助因為"},{"start":4047.159,"end":4049.86,"text":"委員跟您報告一下過去兩年由於我們經費拮据我們很多宣傳工作在政策面上我們也沒辦法擴大但是我們有想一些好的idea就是"},{"start":4068.188,"end":4076.194,"text":"由於年輕次世代他們對於這些通訊軟體的高度運用所以我們現在都拜託他們說你們這個活動結束的時候你們要拍一個影片或者做一段什麼東西放在你們各自的臉書或推特上面強化去推播那這個我們事實上不花什麼錢然後我們會去選拔他們給他們一個獎那透過這樣的方式事實上一方面帶動了這些學生帶動了這些年輕人怎麼樣運用他們這些媒體的一個通路"},{"start":4097.309,"end":4118.49,"text":"謝謝最後時間到了我稍微提醒一下就是我目前看到以海外的這個立場來講對台灣比較有認識的然後又是屬於次世代的最主要都是遊戲界遊戲界所以如果對遊戲界能夠有更多的接觸讓他們因為他們都知道在這個網路上遇到這些中國的玩家的時候要做什麼樣的一個舉動遊戲界對我們來講它的重要性如果他也可以透過變成我們"},{"start":4119.911,"end":4146.263,"text":"讓大家知道臺灣現在處境的管道對我們是很大的幫助這個是一個非常好的提醒謝謝我們會來努力謝謝希望總預算能夠趕快過關我們就能夠做很多過去的事項感謝沈委員長謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員委員長請回那個沈委你剛講的是遊戲間遊戲界就是手機遊戲那個確認一下好我們接下來進行詢問的委員是林楚瑩委員"},{"start":4154.431,"end":4183.448,"text":"謝謝主席 主席邀請委員長委員長來 慢慢來慢慢來沒有問題您委員早安委員長早喔我要首先先呼應一下就是今天早上這個王定宇召委所提到的台商確實對於現在我們台灣來講不論是經濟日不落或者是台灣日不落或是世界的台灣都佔了非常重要的一個位子喔"},{"start":4184.909,"end":4204.743,"text":"像過去我也是因為來到立法院那麼出席了好幾屆的台商活動我才感受到就是其實台商尤其是所展現的台灣的實力非常的重要所以說像這一次這個有關於馬來西亞這個台商會的這個重要的活動我也會認為說其實它沒有任何的顏色"},{"start":4205.163,"end":4205.784,"text":"委員會主委團台商之友會"},{"start":4218.066,"end":4237.802,"text":"也組一團去到巴黎是非常的盛大是那麼我覺得這個都是有正面的意義當然對於所在國所展現出來的這種不論是台灣跟所在國的這個之間的關係一定是非常的重要我想委員長也非常理解尤其是您說您才剛從馬來西亞回來那麼是出席什麼樣的活動"},{"start":4241.725,"end":4245.726,"text":"主要是我們70年的喬教在馬來西亞培養了超過10萬的學生這些留台的同學畢業後返回馬來西亞他們分別在各地組成了叫做留台同學會在全馬的部分"},{"start":4259.571,"end":4259.751,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4279.594,"end":4280.495,"text":"為什麼特別會讓徐委員長特別說一下的原因是因為我想"},{"start":4302.14,"end":4306.382,"text":"現在過去大家可能對於僑委會的界定就是認為說這個僑民朋友在所在國但是現在其實會發現台商朋友也成為這個僑委會非常重要的一環那麼過去我主要呢這個暑假我比較多的時間花在歐洲所以剛剛講完了這個亞洲的部分我其實想回來的是看到我們目前歐洲的一個狀況我們來看下一頁"},{"start":4325.709,"end":4348.966,"text":"就是歐洲呢現在單單2024年歐洲的各國包括歐洲議會就多次挺台我這邊現在記錄上至少7到8次也就是我們現在才來到10月底已經有超過7到8次國際友人為我們發聲而我們知道我們的前總統蔡英文也剛從歐洲回來但是我們在歐洲現在所面臨的狀況我知道僑委會經費有限看下一張"},{"start":4353.479,"end":4368.606,"text":"那就是歐洲目前以我們海外的僑民在這5年我所看到的是歐洲他的增長率是最高的來到12.77%那麼這是僑委會給我的統計資訊要比亞洲美洲都來的高而大洋洲跟非洲是一種下滑的狀態但是我如果來看一下我們現在僑委會在112年的年報當中有美國有加拿大有亞洲"},{"start":4383.092,"end":4406.988,"text":"但是呢感覺上歐洲的關注度是不是比較少呢那麼其實這一次小英總統前往歐洲所展現出來不論是法國或者是歐洲議會對他的歡迎又或者是這一次我們多位委員到歐洲的感受就是歐洲這樣的一個新興的整個勢力當中他對於台灣的重視不言可喻尤其是今天這個"},{"start":4408.109,"end":4424.021,"text":"法國的軍艦還通過台灣海峽這樣的事情我們都可以充分的感受到就是歐洲現在對於僑委會來講是不是可以多放一點心思在這裡來看下一張就是目前我們不論是僑校的數量69所"},{"start":4426.943,"end":4431.808,"text":"又或者是我們在這整體的僑效的預算當中還有就是我們非常關注的就是我們現在歐洲所分配到的相關的這些僑務委員僑務秘書法國兩位德國兩位荷蘭一位英國一位那平均說你一個僑務人員要服務8800位的僑民在預算減少但是僑民增加那麼接下來到底我們在推廣歐洲事務商或者是"},{"start":4453.507,"end":4453.527,"text":"委員長"},{"start":4470.398,"end":4477.563,"text":"這個部分我們是不是需要做一些整體的調整又或者是在新的年度當中有什麼新的計畫跟委員報告我們除了剛剛呈現的資料說我們在歐洲目前13個國家有18所華語文學習中心幾乎每一個國家的首都"},{"start":4490.472,"end":4490.632,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4507.073,"end":4507.093,"text":"委員長"},{"start":4525.293,"end":4525.313,"text":"委員長"},{"start":4550.979,"end":4551.479,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4581.239,"end":4602.506,"text":"因為現在就是說僑委會的職務某種時候他跟外交部其實有一些模糊的地帶啦那麼當然我們的外交預算相對的會比僑委會的預算要來得高一些也許兩個部會之間如何來做一些搭配跟合作其實我知道現在外管都做得非常好彼此有互補的狀況但是在這裡當然我也認為說這個兩個部會之間雖然是我很感謝外交部因為很多地方我們有派駐秘書都是我們外交同仁在協助我們僑務工作"},{"start":4610.469,"end":4627.501,"text":"好 那麼另外當然就是您剛剛提到的有關於就是企業到歐洲投資比如說像台積電下一張 台積電他其實現在在歐洲的部分他也有一些相關的投資或者是佈局其實我現在要請問的就是像這一次我有特別到德勒斯登"},{"start":4628.081,"end":4640.391,"text":"那麼當然比如說熊本啦美國的亞利桑那或是華盛頓等等這些地區現在我們的台積電都在布局的同時其實德勒斯登現在也努力在建廠當中那麼其實不論是工程師或是前期的台灣的這些技術跟工程人員到了這些地區之後他們的包括工程師本人"},{"start":4648.277,"end":4668.88,"text":"的健康醫療或者是家眷們的有關於教育醫療的部分不知道僑委會有沒有提供一些協助尤其是在德國我們都知道在歐美這個醫療是很貴的那麼教育的資源相對的剛剛前面委員有都提到不是那麼的充足那麼在這個部分有沒有給予前期的協助跟幫忙"},{"start":4670.181,"end":4675.706,"text":"我們規劃在德里斯登希望說包括柏林整個這個德東地區除了能夠在設立台灣華語文學習中心之外當地的橋團的組織我們也想辦法把它做起來那我們也會派我們的駐地秘書多加強在這一方面包括設立這個橋校讓這個engineer的家庭呢他們孩子在"},{"start":4695.464,"end":4698.405,"text":"華語學習上或就學上得到一些協助、諮詢這部分我很慶幸是我們剛剛在德瑞士登成立了一個新的組織都是蠻年輕的女性所組成的他們很熱心所以我們即便沒有派秘書我們也透過我們的僑團模式來提供相關的資訊給這些第一批到德國去的engineer"},{"start":4717.211,"end":4717.712,"text":"徐佳青委員"},{"start":4748.43,"end":4751.165,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請這個徐委員長"},{"start":4757.372,"end":4785.723,"text":"邱委員早安目前想先跟您請教就是我們的僑務委員大概有160多位左右但是這個名單它是被列為密等我想請問一下具體的原因是什麼由於我們在全球的僑務委員都是在當地具有一定的影響力聲望或者是有這個事業穩定等等的基礎事實上是"},{"start":4787.364,"end":4804.496,"text":"中共最想統戰的對象那我們基於各自的保護也尊重他們個人的意願所以我們沒有把這個資料公開的放置在我們的網站上面也沒辦法外流這個基本上是基於保護他們的各自這樣的一個目的"},{"start":4804.616,"end":4805.577,"text":"僑務委員希望公開僑務委員身份"},{"start":4822.769,"end":4826.172,"text":"因為像有一些僑胞他們就有來反映說在這個名單沒有公開的情況之下他不知道自己所屬的僑居跟國家地區是否有僑務委員"},{"start":4851.772,"end":4876.058,"text":"好就是說他們有些民眾他也想知道說我們這個地方的僑務委員是誰但是呢他沒有管道能夠知道那因為受聘的這些僑務委員他們在地方上就如您所說的都是熱心助人而且呢也積極參與僑界事務的人所以呢我們想要問就是說如果他有意願公開的人是否我們有機會就是說讓他正式的公開讓這個區域的民眾可以了解當然"},{"start":4879.019,"end":4879.139,"text":"有擔憂的人"},{"start":4899.594,"end":4900.174,"text":"比例時有沒有固定的僑務委員?"},{"start":4923.647,"end":4929.176,"text":"跟委員報告過去3年我們基於僑區人數的配比因為全球只有180名所以我們是依著僑民人數的結構來分配僑務委員的比例"},{"start":4939.291,"end":4958.207,"text":"合比如三國基本上是一位去年應該說今年以前是比例十所以荷蘭就三年沒有僑務委員了所以趙倫的話今年我們在做準備的時候明年聘任的就是荷蘭的僑務委員但是基於歐盟的重要性我們會有額外的另外考量就是說我們除了"},{"start":4964.713,"end":4992.743,"text":"固定比例的這個概念之外我們有保留20席也叫類似不分區的概念就是說要搭配著國家的外交或者特殊橋區的政策需求這就是我要跟委員長特別要來爭取的就是說因為和比盧他們三個是輪著然後但是比例是有他的特殊性我相信您非常清楚因為剛剛林委員也提到了歐洲對台灣的支持可以說是非常的多"},{"start":4993.343,"end":5013.017,"text":"那歐洲呢在比利時就是歐盟跟這個歐洲議會的這個比利也是我國駐比利時代表處之所在所以當比利時如果沒有我們的僑務委員的話我覺得是相當可惜的因為如果比利時他有常駐的就是說不要跟何比盧一起去輪而是有常駐的這個比利時的僑務委員的名額的話"},{"start":5016.9,"end":5031.313,"text":"那未來在不管在歐盟或是歐洲議會或者是我們自己的國人的部分的話都能夠有更多的這個協助他們在熱心公益上面而且呢就我知道也有在比利時很多的僑胞他們也是有意願能夠來爭取這樣子的一個名額的"},{"start":5034.295,"end":5052.644,"text":"所以在這邊呢想要跟這個委員長來爭取就是說考量到歐洲議會跟歐盟的因素他就是在比利時所以在比利時我們希望能夠有固定的這個僑務委員那維持至少有一位的僑務委員的可能性不知道未來有沒有機會在什麼時候能夠做到"},{"start":5054.445,"end":5057.166,"text":"我們最近這兩個月正好正在做討論跟檢討的時候那我們會考量委員的建議就是過去這三年確實我們比利時的僑務委員也協助我們在地很多跟歐盟關係的合作在當地一些僑團的聯繫或者是活動的籌辦都有很大的功能"},{"start":5076.011,"end":5087.837,"text":"合比如三國因為人數上橋包不是非常多其實是荷蘭有4000多那比利時大概1000多所以我們把整個橋區併為是原來一席因為我們要超過5000個才能配到一席目前的狀況就是說雖然是輪到荷蘭荷蘭我們在明年一定會給他們一個僑務委員但是基於"},{"start":5100.562,"end":5129.549,"text":"歐盟基於歐盟歐議會的關係我們會有額外剛剛我說的這個考量那希望說我們可以聽到好消息也在拜託這個我們委員長再繼續在這塊去做努力那另外一個問題是關於臺北橋效的部分是臺北地區因為歷史因素有非常多的華僑也有許多的橋效那多數的橋效雖然在泰國沒有正式的立案但是推動華文教育已經非常久了"},{"start":5129.949,"end":5157.205,"text":"而且多數人他是欣賞中華民國政府的因為歷史的元素所以過去他們是很堅持這個正體制還有中華文化的傳統的教學所以僑委會歷年也投入了不少的預算在臺北的僑校那從105年蔡英文總統上任之後的一千兩百萬到兩千八百萬那我也很開心看到這個臺北地區的僑校的重視程度是提高的"},{"start":5159.266,"end":5180.199,"text":"教材、硬體、補助費用等等都有,其中教材跟教師的聘用是最主要的花費。我們可以看到這一張表上面是我們僑委會補助太北地區的預算。所以說教材跟教師的部分,想要請教委員長的是我們教材是如何做選定的?"},{"start":5181.312,"end":5196.223,"text":"基本上我們每一年都會做一個預先的調查就是第一個了解學生有多少然後再來就是老師想要使用什麼樣的版本但事實上我們基於太北地區因為有泰文的學習我們是特別為泰國地區編一個泰文版的"},{"start":5202.067,"end":5220.839,"text":"我現在繼續講因為時間比較不夠的關係因為我們發現有一個youtuber那個委員長看一下他有去訪問泰北的一間小學那校長說他們不是原本老師不會用拼音是用注音是特別看了青邁的孔子學院的線上教程才會拼音"},{"start":5221.559,"end":5237.194,"text":"那這個校長也提到說2022年他們才開始走注音加拼音今年改成全拼音他們也展示了這個簡體的教材喔然後呢同一支影片我們也發現除了中文課之外他們是使用我們台灣的這個南伊書局的教材"},{"start":5237.914,"end":5253.346,"text":"顯示說呢,僑委會可能是有跟這個學校有添購書籍跟輔助資資的費用那網路上面查到這些僑校呢甚至都有加入大陸設立的這個華人村的華文教師聯誼會那我想問一下就是說我們要怎麼樣就是因為我們跟孔子學校是不一樣的這個系統我們希望僑委會能夠贏過這個孔子學校推廣我們正式的正體制然後還有我們的這個"},{"start":5267.236,"end":5268.437,"text":"委員我會在會後提供完整的書面資料給您參考"},{"start":5287.313,"end":5287.353,"text":"謝謝徐委員"},{"start":5305.662,"end":5321.322,"text":"臺北我們退府會在那邊有農場然後以前蔣爸在那邊的時候他過世的時候他們的親王還這樣辦期所以你們要跟退府會那邊多一些合作好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來進行詢問委員是洪森翰委員"},{"start":5337.682,"end":5340.527,"text":"呃謝謝召委喔那我想請那個徐佳青委員長"},{"start":5346.99,"end":5373.332,"text":"委員長好我今天其實想就幾個其實我們在這個產息專班那其實遇到的實際的案例的議題來跟僑委會來討論今年的8月的中旬那有一位這個3加4產息專班的到台灣念書的僑生那他其實透過一個華僑的組織來向我們協助他其實到了一個北部的這個高職就讀不到幾個月"},{"start":5374.373,"end":5389.645,"text":"事實上是來了第2個月就發生了對然後他其實就身體不適後來經過判定紅斑性狼瘡的問題我們這邊有講說某些罕見的疾病那他住進了ICU其實那時候的狀況已經幾乎是命在旦夕了"},{"start":5391.487,"end":5411.102,"text":"這個狀況當然後來我們看到是因為我們健保法的規定其實在台需要居留滿6個月所以他其實來了這幾個月尤其是還沒滿6個月的前面的時間其實這個積欠下來的這個醫療費用其實大概將近七八十萬元"},{"start":5412.483,"end":5434.354,"text":"那尤其但我想委員長其實也很知道其實就這個像3加4產期專班來台的這個僑生其實他們多半在他的自己的僑居地其實相對是設計地位是比較困難的所以其實這個是很大的負擔所以他們其實就會非常依賴我們這個僑生傷病醫療保險可是卻看到了一個狀況是這個這個我們的這個僑保這個僑生傷病醫療保險理賠的上限卻只有12萬"},{"start":5441.577,"end":5462.227,"text":"這跟他實際在沒有健保期間所付出的醫療費其實看起來是有非常非常大的差距這讓他在經濟上面相對壓力非常非常的沉重委員長我想先請問你覺得這部分我們有沒有可以再把這個理賠上限可以再做一些調整的空間這當然涉及到保費可是我想問一下"},{"start":5462.987,"end":5472.101,"text":"我們在我們在這邊有沒有一些檢討或修正空間尤其如果是對於像這樣子他可能比較經濟弱勢或家家境比較清寒的我們能夠怎麼做"},{"start":5473.016,"end":5476.377,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們對於親韓學生的部分我們是會額外的給他保費的補助那通常一般學生我們是一半一半那麼退時因為根據我們的健保法規範所有的人來台灣必須要居住滿6個月以上才有資格加入健保那所以前6個月的這個空窗期就由我們僑委會來進行僑保"},{"start":5500.225,"end":5518.826,"text":"喬寶的部分因為他是一個大的團體保險團體保險的這個理賠上限就會有比較大的這個沒有那麼大空間應該這樣講確實我知道這個部分有一個困難但我們也會從根源去想就是說導致說因為我們在所有的僑生來台以前我們必須要做健康檢查"},{"start":5519.987,"end":5526.911,"text":"那這一件案子其實是健康檢查出了問題因為我們未來會加強我們健康的這個檢查上面他有家庭的遺傳性疾病但是在這個檢查報告裡面完全沒有呈現那所以我們未來在這個健康檢查的前端我們可能要多增加幾項的詢問瞭解他的家族遺傳病史等等之類那因為他事實上是來台灣幾乎第2個月就發病"},{"start":5546.4,"end":5571.094,"text":"委員長我要說的事情是說當然我在這段時間我們看到僑委會其實包括業管的主管及委員這個個案呢我們會另外來幫他協助就是說我們去透過募款的方式我們可能必須要透過這樣的社會救濟模式來進行處理因為大部分在這個18歲左右的孩子照道理如果他健康檢查報告是沒有特殊狀況的來台灣不應當會有運用到這麼多的這個"},{"start":5582.92,"end":5603.79,"text":"主要是針對在這6個月的這段時間我覺得就保費的制度的調整我還是希望教委可以回去能不能再做一些檢討能不能再有一些特別處理的空間這部分麻煩教委好不好那第二個是我想要跟委員長討論到幾個事情其實接下來這件事情我自己認為是非常非常嚴肅的事情"},{"start":5605.21,"end":5633.573,"text":"這段時間其實有人權團體跟好幾位僑生都來向我反映僑生他們進到台灣以後他們的護照跟居留證一到台灣就被學校給扣走了那甚至這就是在今年九月發生的事情其實坦白說我聽到這樣的案例我是蠻難接受蠻難忍受的現在這些學校他其實都是用怕學生把護照居留證弄丟然後就要把學生的護照給扣起來"},{"start":5636.814,"end":5641.758,"text":"委員長你應該知道這其實已經在違法的非常違法的高度的疑慮狀況了是委員長你覺得"},{"start":5645.948,"end":5673.259,"text":"過去確實這個狀況有發生在部分的學校裡面現在還在發生是那其實很多事情它是一體兩面因為早期曾經發生一些案例就是說他進來事實上是被仲介進來那移工的這個系統因為給他charge了很多錢那這個學生進來的時候就拿著就跑了有發生過不是沒有"},{"start":5674.139,"end":5674.159,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5694.671,"end":5696.213,"text":"委員長我們看一下幾個法規好不好下面一個這個在人口販運防治法裡面很清楚人口販運裡面的定義"},{"start":5721.497,"end":5721.877,"text":"委員長其實是"},{"start":5749.039,"end":5749.399,"text":"法規上的定義幾乎已經是人口販運了"},{"start":5769.859,"end":5782.86,"text":"我想有兩個我們所知道的學校有曾經這樣的行為所以我們也確實去跟他們去函瞭解但是主管單位事實上是教育部的這個國教署"},{"start":5785.483,"end":5804.779,"text":"我們也有跟國教署來反映這樣的狀況那現在的狀況是什麼但是這些僑生的主管其實是僑委會啊這些僑生要保護他們的是僑委會啊僑生是我們主管沒有錯但是學校的主管你們要保護的這個對象現在被用這種方式系統性的把他們的護照給扣下來啦"},{"start":5805.619,"end":5822.051,"text":"這裏面我想我們第一個不支持學校做這種做法但是學生真的要拿回護照也不是困難的事情可能是部分的學生他在可能來台以前他有跟學校先借貸了所以學校怕他這一部分的借貸無法償還"},{"start":5825.173,"end":5843.932,"text":"但是也不應該用這種手段來執行也不應該用這樣的手段來執行所以我們會來加強跟學校進行溝通委員長我要說如果還繼續在做這件事情我覺得這是一個非常非常不文明的手段再繼續做這件事情我覺得不管任何的理由"},{"start":5844.352,"end":5845.772,"text":"徐佳青報告業務概況：完整會議"},{"start":5871.32,"end":5898.557,"text":"我必須說這個事情其實已經引起一些國際的人員團體在注意這件事情了我認為其實這些學校如果他不願意停止這些行為的話我們在我們喬爾會跟他相關的契約相關的合約裡面我們應該做一些決定啊甚至這不是只是要這些學校把護照還回去而已啊這事情是要有法律責任的啊要追究他的法律責任啊"},{"start":5900.011,"end":5914.323,"text":"不是我今天扣了然後我好有人來跟我要我就把你還回去然後我就假裝沒事了如果可以這樣的話那當然很多學校他都可以去做這件事情啊而且我們心知肚明他做這件事情的原因真的是在就學的關係嗎更多其實在勞動的關係裡面吧"},{"start":5916.859,"end":5916.879,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5934.867,"end":5949.602,"text":"委員長我要求一個月內清查我們下面所有的我們這個產系專班裡面所有的學校還有沒有類似的狀況如果有的他一定必須立即的停止不只返回不只返還而已甚至"},{"start":5950.703,"end":5950.923,"text":"徐委員長 這個事情"},{"start":5980.219,"end":5990.171,"text":"不能等閒視之沒有任何理由去扣人家旅行文件哪怕是金錢都不可以所以你要到年底其實本席是不接受的"},{"start":5991.792,"end":6019.217,"text":"沒有沒有沒有 全面的也不應該到年底 學生在哪裡你們都知道嘛所以 因為之前有發生過了那現在還有扣旅行文件的 你們要用最快的速度 把它清查出來而且 那個不是勾肩 有扣旅行文件的該移送法辦移送法辦另外我們這邊也做個記錄 我們委員會出個文請監察院 人權委員會他們到各校區抽查 到各校區抽查 我們還是要外部機制去調查這個事情"},{"start":6021.414,"end":6022.014,"text":"馬文君委員馬文你好"},{"start":6051.969,"end":6071.603,"text":"委員長好 延續剛剛紅委員的問題這個部分因為是僑委會負責辦理進來的那學校也是僑委會媒介所以立即應該就請他們終止這樣的做法因為這讓人家想到聯想到我們有很多被騙到"},{"start":6073.044,"end":6080.99,"text":"免電或者甚至其他地方的我們自己的年輕人我們自己的孩子他們就是這樣被扣的所以台灣怎麼會就這樣這不需要跟他們什麼什麼勸導或什麼他就是不可以所以這個應該立即就要做這個部分我們強烈要求剛剛主席也做了"},{"start":6093.42,"end":6095.782,"text":"為什麼來念書的學生會先跟學校借錢?就你們掌握的資訊,為什麼?"},{"start":6117.272,"end":6140.16,"text":"我初步的了解有些學校大家在海外招生的時候他知道說我們是補助學費了但是第一期的生活費因為他還沒進入實習第一期的前三個月還沒進入實習不會有收入那還有個原因是部分家庭因為清寒到連第一張機票還買不起"},{"start":6141.78,"end":6144.442,"text":"委員長我記得我們在談的時候我們的像這樣的一個專班的學生他甚至生活費其實是不需要付的"},{"start":6167.27,"end":6172.595,"text":"沒有沒有沒有我們是說他的生活今天他現在的問題是在第一期因為第一期剛進來的兩個月三個月還不能進到實習現場特別找這樣的學生那來就已經有缺錢的狀況現在我們要回到我們這個但是這不是全面的是部分而已部分家庭比較輕寒所以我們"},{"start":6189.872,"end":6203.401,"text":"委員長聽完我的話因為你如果是部分的學生有比較可能生活狀況不好的那他跟學校借貸也不會是全面的可是學校是全部的學生所以我也覺得不應該對"},{"start":6204.762,"end":6223.901,"text":"所以不應該不是我們說還要會教育部為什麼要會教育部這個部分我們馬上就因為主管機關就是教育部那個不是主管機關的問題人是你們找進來的所以這個跟教育部已經沒有關係就這個部分而且就你理解掌握的狀況是少數有欠錢的"},{"start":6224.662,"end":6230.407,"text":"學生那他為什麼會這樣缺錢而且才第一期的生活費還有包括機票錢為什麼去找這樣子的學生明明他來我們這裡念書的條件並不是真的感覺不是真的要念書的可是你卻是找這樣的學生這是我們在這裡強烈要求他馬上就應該要返還不然這樣的學校你不可以再用而且你未來的學生也不可以再到這個學校"},{"start":6251.146,"end":6268.458,"text":"我們在今天的報告裡面有看到我們整個計畫尤其是這個部分就是說我們的海青班跟產學攜手合作的僑生專班這個部分在過去我們看到前兩次105年到108年"},{"start":6272.267,"end":6280.505,"text":"那時候大概總經費這都是4年的計劃嘛總經費是3億8千4百萬左右"},{"start":6282.702,"end":6309.238,"text":"一百零九到一百一十二年他的總經費是十億五千萬五千八百萬他的成長幅度高達漲幅高達百分之一百七十五是然後他增加可是他的計劃也增加六億七千多萬是我想請教一下一百零九年到一百一十二年那時候疫情發生比較嚴重的時候我們的這個招生的狀況都還是更好嗎因為他的他的"},{"start":6310.619,"end":6319.502,"text":"金費的那個那時候還是有微幅增加有還有微幅增加那我們真正預算規模增加是從2021年之後我們是2022年到2025年這四年22232425這四年的中期計劃總計是36億"},{"start":6333.706,"end":6354.475,"text":"那是我現在要說的嘛就是你112年到115年我們的計劃裡面變成36億你從不是是四年加起來36億越後面會越高我剛剛講的也是都是四年四年105年那個也是四年那個總經費是3億多嘛那你現在的四年是變到36億多了"},{"start":6356.576,"end":6356.796,"text":"委員36億是分在4年"},{"start":6387.597,"end":6406.932,"text":"我們看一下齁,你計劃招生,計劃要招生海青班4800人,然後產學攜手合作僑生專班要兩萬一千多人,他主要的目的是要累計留用的學士以上,像這樣的僑生專班嘛,對不對﹖是的"},{"start":6408.444,"end":6429.54,"text":"那我們每年花這麼多在你們的計畫裡面他僑生專班要兩萬一千多人這個來源是什麼因為寫僑生專班啊對我們事實上目前的僑生人數不止這些還有一般大專生一般大專生大概就是專班的部分有三種專班嘛三種專班你的僑生專班"},{"start":6435.825,"end":6436.025,"text":"委員長徐佳青報告業"},{"start":6456.867,"end":6473.838,"text":"委員為什麼是這樣加總不是你回答我們的問題這樣子會比較大家會比較清楚對我現在要講因為一個學生是三加四的話念七年嘛那七年的前三年學費都是我補助的所以一二三年級會持續增加嘛這一年是兩千五年再四千變六千不要去講七年因為我講三年就好了一邊的"},{"start":6479.361,"end":6480.462,"text":"我現在要說他的差異在哪裡你之前的4年的計畫只有3億多現在變成36億多的原因把這個原因講出來就好了原因就是學生人口數增加10倍"},{"start":6496.357,"end":6497.157,"text":"主要在東南亞有7國 越南 印尼 菲律賓 緬甸"},{"start":6526.494,"end":6532.579,"text":"柬埔寨馬來西亞泰國這7國為主7國的喬生他的認定身份怎麼認定我們早期是說他要提出他有什麼樣的文件但是這兩年呢我們認為這種沒辦法去驗證他文書的正確性我們現在是以華語程度有沒有達到A17他會講華語就是喬生的意思嗎"},{"start":6551.913,"end":6555.757,"text":"我們現在是以這個來作為認定就是會講華語就是僑生的意思嗎是的所以我們從3億多的國家預算我們編列要讓他們來這裡念書然後還有產學合作我們的學生數是增加10倍是嗎是的"},{"start":6569.79,"end":6583.74,"text":"可是不好意思歐主席現在我們先就這個部分你把那個2萬多人你預計明年要有2萬多人然後要用掉我們36億的預算明年是10億你是4年計劃第1年3億第2年5億第3年總計4年所以委員長不要再去講"},{"start":6593.246,"end":6600.27,"text":"明年是多少我們現在看的就是四年四年之前就是四年三一多你現在四年三一多告訴我們所有的國人我們為什麼要編這樣的預算因為我們本來的對手是僑人對於我們培養人才跟未來的人才培育很重要你說培養人才你知道你的畢業人數110年從45%"},{"start":6616.218,"end":6616.258,"text":"實行津貼"},{"start":6644.813,"end":6648.135,"text":"實習今天是工廠企業給他們的還有服務的單位那這些單位他們為什麼要用這樣的人力這個部分跟我們剛剛一起討論好不好就你把人帶進來以後然後你扣了人家的護照然後他是怎麼樣的一個學習的一個狀況請給我們一份完整的報告"},{"start":6666.104,"end":6666.124,"text":"僑委會"},{"start":6687.176,"end":6687.196,"text":"委員長請"},{"start":6719.85,"end":6737.27,"text":"陳委員你好委員長好委員這一次我們國軍有4000多個僑胞回國對那是義後的新高是那這個我們當然是很正面這是代表說我們有做對一些事情是我們還有一場活動書面報告有提到說中共的統戰"},{"start":6738.271,"end":6759.358,"text":"推陳初心那還有什麼低價旅行團鼓勵僑胞附中旅遊然後甚至想要這個方式來去排擠我們來參加雙十過慶營造僑胞不想返台的假象當然沒有成功可是我看到我們僑委會他有一些方式就是針對他們用旅遊的方式"},{"start":6759.818,"end":6769.065,"text":"我們也有一些反制的做法比方說是用i喬卡那用i喬卡來攜手旅行業者推動國旅我想請問一下這個成效你滿意嗎"},{"start":6771.112,"end":6790.046,"text":"委員我們跟對岸的做法其實是很不一樣因為我們是自由民主的國家那我們是提供多元的選擇讓僑民跟僑胞回國的時候可以有更多選擇那我們是提供優質的這些旅行的路線"},{"start":6791.127,"end":6805.633,"text":"加上我們也有補助那我們補助當然是一個象徵性的但是為了鼓勵國旅包括尤其是在4月3號的地震之後我們為了加強花東地區的旅遊我們甚至做更加碼這個20%的補助"},{"start":6808.214,"end":6833.943,"text":"謝謝委員長這個我講你們的愛喬卡的一些好處就是特約633家商店攜手34家旅行社規劃162條的旅遊路線推動國旅可是我發現愛喬卡的官網搜尋旅遊景點這個非常凌亂阿他的網站的使用介面比方說我們來自嘉義嘛我搜尋嘉義他推薦的景區是嘉義海巡服務區你來嘉義要來我們的海巡服務區嗎"},{"start":6835.585,"end":6860.011,"text":"理由是什麼 廁所可以解決廁所在哪裡這種擔憂應該不是這個理由啦當然不是這個理由嘛 那我們就改進嘛好不好 這就改進但是我怎麼會為了到一個去上廁所去洗澡的地方來到一個地方去觀光你去輸入嘉義你沒有阿里山沒有番路沒有竹崎沒有各大景點我們來嘉義的時候是去看阿里山嘛去看雲海嘛去番路的市集園嘛去大埔的珍武水庫嘛"},{"start":6862.471,"end":6863.452,"text":"連結到各個官網的系統所以連結到這個"},{"start":6875.953,"end":6876.973,"text":"那再來還是這個網路介面的部分"},{"start":6904.253,"end":6904.473,"text":"邀請僑務委員會委員會長"},{"start":6922.628,"end":6925.609,"text":"再來就是我們的這個華文學習研究這個部分"},{"start":6949.563,"end":6970.683,"text":"這個其實全球學習中文的人口比例是在下降當中那當然在下降當中有很多原因我認為一部分是地緣政治就是現在基本上你去跟中國做生意就是很困難的那怎麼樣把學習華文這個東西跟去中國學中文就是把我們自己的品牌做出來我們當然是覺得很重要"},{"start":6972.063,"end":6988.588,"text":"我們從學習的經濟學人的報導裡面有講他說大概2013年選中文的美國的人大概達到高峰但是2016年到2020年就是下降21%所以說在這個趨勢當中是大概減少31%委員長你怎麼看這個趨勢"},{"start":6992.627,"end":7015.003,"text":"確實過去因為世界工廠在中國的概念很多人既進行投資因此有實用性的這個需求要溝通而去學了華語但中國雖然高度的在全球去做紅子學院這樣子的一個設置但事實上是在做大外宣跟統戰的機制這四年來已經被陸續各國都關閉了那關閉以後其實華語的學習人口的其實依舊在"},{"start":7021.548,"end":7045.752,"text":"那麼我們為什麼從202121年開始在美國及歐洲大力的去成立台灣華語文學習中心也是希望能夠跟我們國際朋友介紹說你就是可以在這個介面平台上不用有任何被統戰或者是政治的行銷的困擾之下你一樣可以學習到很好的華語所以我們在這個以台灣的這個優質"},{"start":7049.053,"end":7057.998,"text":"委員長講得很好其實就是沒有把意識形態貫注在華文教育這是我們跟其他人不同不會像中國的孔子學院或者是他們類似相關的這樣子的華文的教學裡面通常都把他們想要宣傳propaganda的東西放進去這是我們的不同的地方"},{"start":7076.707,"end":7076.847,"text":"社群媒體"},{"start":7097.666,"end":7097.706,"text":"委員會委員長"},{"start":7127.13,"end":7152.5,"text":"委員長我覺得這個方向是對的齁但是那個你看一下齁包含IG齁除了委員會的官方帳號之後大概只有英國成立那僑委會的本身帳號也沒有去追蹤就沒有辦法造成串聯的效果是那呃這個甚至X都不用說啦其實其他的這些僑務秘書等等X跟Instagram是全英文的對對對很好很好啊我說彼此之間的互相追蹤是是是串流串流很重要我這個也是提醒同仁發文編綠還有這個是的"},{"start":7156.118,"end":7176.489,"text":"社交媒體要串流才會有傳播效益我認為這特別是在X是很重要的一環因為現在基本上中共的所有的訊息特別是錯假亂訊息基本上都在X這邊亂串如果我們沒有辦法第一時間來去反制那基本上就是只有他們的一言堂"},{"start":7178.57,"end":7178.59,"text":"委員長"},{"start":7207.492,"end":7212.277,"text":"好謝謝陳冠廷委員好委員長請回接下來進行詢答委員吳麗華委員謝謝主席有請徐委員長來委員長請"},{"start":7231.164,"end":7250.479,"text":"委員長好過去外交部他有一個國際青年的交流計畫那在這個當中其實常常邀請一些大學然後到國外去做一些演出那演出呢我們也很高興因為往往都看得到"},{"start":7251.219,"end":7253.761,"text":"2012年成功大學出訪墨爾本2013年台灣大學出訪巴西團"},{"start":7276.336,"end":7301.002,"text":"在這個當中都有做原住民文化的表演可是我們發現他們不但在穿著上出了很大的問題甚至是演出的內容跟他們介紹台灣原住民族的方式其實都有很大的錯誤那這個部分經過檢討之後很感謝外交部現在都有配一個文化顧問"},{"start":7302.182,"end":7302.222,"text":"僑務委員會委員長"},{"start":7321.084,"end":7321.204,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7341.45,"end":7352.178,"text":"前年2022年大前年2021年其實這樣的呈現一直不斷的出現那我要先講我們不是希望說因約廢時"},{"start":7354.144,"end":7376.65,"text":"其實講一句實在話我們是巴不得跟委員報告這個現象我在去年前年都陸續有注意到就是說因為我們有些僑民年長然後他們出國已經很久了有時候並不了解台灣的進步跟我們對原住民文化語言的重視所以我近年來出國常常在告訴僑民說我們台灣是有"},{"start":7378.91,"end":7382.814,"text":"19種國家語言其中16種的原住民語言加上台灣客語台灣台語台灣華語所以大家一聽到就說哇真的嗎我說對而且除此之外呢原住民的文化跟他的這個相關的智慧財產權也是已經有徵記註冊的我們不能挪用"},{"start":7399.47,"end":7401.471,"text":"謝謝委員長因為您就是講到重點因為這件事情我要再次強調我們不是希望因噎廢食"},{"start":7420.842,"end":7447.094,"text":"反而是我們很希望台灣原住民族的文化可以代表中華民國代表台灣走出去可是我們要重視他的整個文化的深度他的正確性因為他如果做得好他就是一個很有深度的表演我們做不好他就有一種文化務用之外的表淺讓人家覺得這個文化那麼簡單那麼膚淺"},{"start":7449.275,"end":7449.595,"text":"因為你們這是喬教中心在辦的嗎?"},{"start":7470.99,"end":7495.656,"text":"在協助的我們巧作中心是借給人家用的我是在想另外一個層次其實在國際間越來越重視文化農用的問題它其實是會出大新聞像之前那個H&M他們出產了一個羽毛頭柿結果遭全球抵制然後下架或者是迪士尼的電影海洋奇緣"},{"start":7496.676,"end":7509.361,"text":"他呢也出了一個裡面的這個半人半神的毛衣這樣的一個刺青兒童裝也是遭到國際的抵制然後下架所以這個文化誤用其實在國際間他是會鬧笑話的"},{"start":7512.322,"end":7512.882,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7531.632,"end":7532.433,"text":"委員長請回接下來進行訓導委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在"},{"start":7549.606,"end":7574.305,"text":"陳婷菲委員陳婷菲委員陳婷菲委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在賴士寶委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在吳春成委員吳春成委員吳春成委員不在接下來進行訓導委員是葉元芝委員時間4分鐘"},{"start":7583.075,"end":7583.417,"text":"主席麻煩請委員長"},{"start":7590.919,"end":7619.349,"text":"委員你好委員長好就是我們國內就是因為很多大選嘛現在因為陸生沒來了所以造成造生困難現在政府是主要把招生有個重點是放在新南向還有就是其他國家的部分對外籍生及僑生好那我現在看很多資料顯示其實我們新南向的國家都很都集中在幾個國家七個都集中沒有七個裡面又在集中特別兩三個對有三個對所以是哪三個越南印尼"},{"start":7625.251,"end":7637.635,"text":"海外招生除了教育部之外,橋友會應該也有負擔一部分的工作,對不對?事實上我們做比較多因為海外的僑胞也是這樣認知,他們認為在海外招生部分應該是橋友會的工作"},{"start":7638.396,"end":7653.579,"text":"但是海外僑胞有時候他們要介紹朋友來這邊讀書或者是他們自己的小孩要讀書的時候請教僑委會僑委會有的時候就會說這是教育部的工作所以他們在海外會面臨到說這政府怎麼推來推去"},{"start":7654.34,"end":7671.882,"text":"所以我想先跟委員長確定說這工作是教育會工作嗎跟委員報告事實上所有的教育業務主管還是教育部那我們在專案的合作上面因為國內的所有學校主管單位一定是教育部但是對於海外的招生方面我們是幫忙做這個連結"},{"start":7673.944,"end":7687.178,"text":"推廣提供資訊的角色那另外呢所有的規則基本上比方說他們是要走外籍生或者僑生的路線這個都是跟教育部開會決定的那甚至教育部會說如果我們僑生名額已經全部招完了"},{"start":7689.801,"end":7703.954,"text":"他還會鼓勵我們僑生改用外籍生的名額這個事實上是教育部規定的我只是想提醒委員長因為在海外的僑胞他們會把僑友會視為是我們政府的單一窗口是是是所以如果說僑胞找到僑友會這邊僑友會說這是教育部的工作"},{"start":7705.956,"end":7706.076,"text":"我們還是會協助"},{"start":7724.352,"end":7746.442,"text":"他們也有海外僑班有個建議就是說比如說他們來參加新南向的專班啊之類的要來讀書新南向專班是教育部開的不是我們開的我知道我知道就是我還沒講完就是說他們要來讀書然後呢因為我們他們在入境台灣的時候要辦理簽證嘛對常常要有一個財務審核啦可是有的時候你知道有些僑報委員這就是我要跟你說明的差異性在這裡是"},{"start":7747.182,"end":7766.071,"text":"如果是我們僑生由僑委會來審核錄取的我們就不需要他們有財力證明了因為我們會照冊給所有駐外單位的領事去看辦領悟的人但是教育部沒有做這個程序所以這也是要請你協助的地方這我沒辦法協助因為教育部不是我主管的你可以去跟他溝通"},{"start":7767.571,"end":7772.633,"text":"僑委會我們國家為什麼會有一個僑委會就是我們希望僑胞的所有問題可以透過僑委會來解決那如果現在在這邊詢答你說那是教育部跟我僑委會無關因為教育部的招生方式跟我不一樣我是統一去招生的可是我認為你可以把你的經驗教育部是他直接就叫各大學自己去招對他們會希望說請僑委會去做溝通"},{"start":7788.679,"end":7814.224,"text":"現在不是說你來決定嗎?因為僑胞的反應當然是...這件事情我有跟教育部提醒過了那這個問題就是他們覺得很困擾的地方所以現在這邊反應嘛我知道,僑胞也跟我講過這個所以可見就是事情還蠻嚴重的他們不是說沒有錢啦只是說可能他們所提供的資料沒有辦法達到那個財務審核的標準但是我不是高教師我沒辦法去幫他們當然這個部分我們也可以跟教育部溝通可是我覺得站在僑胞的立場"},{"start":7814.904,"end":7815.244,"text":"希望委員加強給我們督導"},{"start":7839.247,"end":7843.63,"text":"好謝謝議員之委員委員長請回好接下來進行詢答委員賴會員委員賴會員委員賴會員不在"},{"start":7848.991,"end":7867.161,"text":"已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員陳永康委員黃仁委員吳春成委員楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":7870.103,"end":7896.268,"text":"那委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供但委員另約定期限者從其所定但是剛才那一個有關扣旅行文件的案件請僑委會立即處理本日會議到此結束我們希望總預算能夠盡快交付委員會我們每一次"},{"start":7897.208,"end":7897.368,"text":"結束 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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員張宏陸等26人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、繼續審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。十五、繼續審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、繼續審查委員洪孟楷等19人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、繼續審查委員林思銘等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、繼續審查委員邱若華等20人擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。十九、審查委員徐富癸等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二十、審查委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二十二、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第十九、二十案如經復議則不予審查，第二十一、二十二案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n\n【10月30日、31日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-10-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-10-30T08:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T10:50:00+08:00","duration":8354,"影片長度":"02:19:14","委員發言時間":"08:30:46 - 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971,"end":1199.441,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員徐富鬼等17人擬具委員徐巧欣等18人擬具委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具委員羅廷偉等16人擬具消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1203.461,"end":1227.386,"text":"本日審查之法案,業經本會於113年10月16日第11屆第2會期第5次全體委員會議決議暫行保留條文含修正動議,均另定期繼續審查,延遲本次會議繼續進行審查。現在介紹在場委員及列席官員王美惠委員"},{"start":1232.437,"end":1259.264,"text":"吳祁銘委員蘇巧慧委員因為我們每次審這個都遇到颱風所以部長跟署長有說他們因為應變中心成立他們11點前會趕回來所以現在我們先是馬世元次長"},{"start":1263.771,"end":1290.763,"text":"還有消防署我們的副署長簡萬堯我們也為了要快一點讓他救災啦其他我們就不一一介紹好不好我們上次都介紹過了好不好不好意思喔就本日已成新增資審查法案請提案委員說明提案要職我們第一個請蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":1299.107,"end":1320.529,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我的《消防法部分條文修正草案》的提案說明,《消防法》自1985年日定公佈以來,迄今已經經過13次的修正,不到3年就修正一次,也顯見消防安全長久以來一直是被很關心的議題。我們都要努力減少火災的發生,以減少社會上所需要付出的成本代價。"},{"start":1322.091,"end":1343.372,"text":"減少消防人員再發生搶救災害所造成的不幸事故是本席今天提案的核心精神因為消防人員是我們國家的重要資產維護消防人員執行職務之生命安全以及身心健康也是國家的責任因此本席藉由提案向所有的消防人員致敬更提出以下版本"},{"start":1344.173,"end":1354.161,"text":"本席版本包含日前審查已經提出的附帶決議,有三個大方向,敬請大家支持。一、在行政院的修法版本中,重要精神是要敦促企業重視自主風險管理責任,同時擴大修正吹哨者的適用範圍。本席認為有其道理,本席也認為當吹哨者出來揭秘時,"},{"start":1368.132,"end":1375.697,"text":"其工作保障仍應受勞動基準法所保障,若有發生相關糾紛,也應該要適用勞資爭議處理法,因此相關規定與這兩部勞動法令應該要切齊。二、同時本席也認為,因為這次修法有強化企業對災害的自主風險管理責任,因此主管機關應會同工業區主管機關辦理地方說明會。"},{"start":1392.947,"end":1404.942,"text":"特別對於工業區密集區域之處多加說明及修正意見,使企業能夠理解並遵循法規。三、秉持認為義消人員的協助,消防單位協助就在"},{"start":1406.328,"end":1425.882,"text":"的勤務,也是十分的重要,十分辛苦,因此國家也應該要照顧逸霄的身心健康,以發揮其救災戰力。因此,本席建請原議給予逸霄並其特定項目之健康檢查補助。以上三點,為了我的提案的說明大致,請各位委員支持並指教。謝謝。"},{"start":1432.014,"end":1446.999,"text":"立席機關準備之書面報告請委員知情參閱並刊登公報。報告委員會我們現在進行法案審查請宣讀新增審查討論事項第19案第22案之條文然後附帶決議請一併宣讀請宣讀"},{"start":1451.772,"end":1468.303,"text":"本院內政委員會分別於113年6月26日、10月16日召開第11屆第一會期第25次、第二會期第5次全體委員會議審查討論事項所列第一至第18案。上述18案之條文及修正動議均已宣讀完畢,現在宣讀新增提案之條文。"},{"start":1469.244,"end":1493.217,"text":"第15條委員蘇巧慧等提案。增定第4項直轄市縣市主管機關藉貨前項舉發因為必要之調查並於60日內將處理情形以書面通知舉發人。原第5項一列第6項並修正為第三項舉發人之單位主管僱主不得因舉發行為而予以解僱、降調、減薪、損害其依法令契約或習慣上所應享有之權益、調職或其他不利之處分。增定第7項"},{"start":1494.318,"end":1508.298,"text":"取發人之單位主管僱主為前項行為之一者無效,原第6項、第7項一列第8、9項,其餘同行政院提案。第9項後段增訂於本條例113年 修正施行前擬定報核之都市。"},{"start":1513.166,"end":1529.847,"text":"維園羅廷偉等提案同國民黨黨團提案。第二十一條之一委員徐富鬼等提案同行政院提案。委員蘇巧慧等提案第二款修正為火災發生時只派對前款資訊知情專人至現場協助救災其餘同行政院提案。委員羅廷偉等提案同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":1531.269,"end":1536.095,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":1548.829,"end":1568.685,"text":"第二十八條委員蘇巧慧等提案同行政院提案。委員羅廷偉等提案同國民黨黨團提案。第三十五條委員徐巧欣等提案。序文中段修正為得併科新台幣100萬元以上500萬元以下罰金或該事業上億會計年度銷售金額10%以下罰金。其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":1569.406,"end":1591.495,"text":"提案、委員蘇巧慧等提案同行政院提案、委員羅廷偉等提案同國民黨黨團提案。第三十七條,委員徐巧欣等提案,第一項第一款罰還修正為新台幣10萬元以上30萬元以下,第三項罰還修正為新台幣1萬元以上10萬元以下,其餘同行政院提案,委員蘇巧慧等提案同行政院提案,委員羅廷偉等提案同國民黨黨團提案。"},{"start":1592.856,"end":1609.788,"text":"第42條委員徐巧欣等提案第一項第五項法環修正為新台幣10萬元以上30萬元以下第二項法環修正為新台幣10萬元以上150萬元以下其餘同行政院提案委員蘇巧慧等提案同行政院提案委員羅廷偉等提案同國民黨黨團提案"},{"start":1611.109,"end":1640.072,"text":"第43條,委員羅廷偉等提案,同國民黨黨團提案。第43條之一,委員徐富鬼等提案,第二項後段修正為,處管理權人該場所營業額一定比例之罰還,裁罰金額及比例由中央主管機關另定之,若欲發生火災並致人於死者,處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑,其餘同行政院提案。委員徐巧興等提案,第一項第二項後段增加,或該事業上一會計年度銷售金額10%以下罰還,其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":1640.872,"end":1669.286,"text":"修正草案、委員蘇巧慧等提案同行政院提案、委員羅廷偉等提案同國民黨黨團提案。附帶決議一、義勇消防人員協助消防單位消防救災勤務工作義勇於火災現場受火、濃煙之侵襲情勢,長期仍有影響身體健康之餘,為維護義勇消防人員健康,發揮其救災戰力,建請研議與義勇消防人員定期特定項目之健康檢查補助。提案人、委員蘇巧慧等5人。"},{"start":1670.126,"end":1697.537,"text":"覆蓋決議。二、為能打造消防人員更安全的執勤及工作環境,行政院提出《消防法部分條文修正草案》其利益良善,然而各級消防主管機關會同工業區主管機關應就修法中強化企業對災害的自主風險管理責任部分辦理地方說明會,特別是工業區密集區域多加說明及蒐集意見,使企業能理解且遵循法規以落實消防人員勤務安全,提案人委員蘇巧慧等4人。"},{"start":1698.437,"end":1725.643,"text":"負貸決議。三、本法修正通過後,為充分掌握工廠儲存化學品或一定規模以上之倉庫及公共危險物品室內儲存場所及化學品或危險儲存物品之種類數量之最新情況,原提案要求內政部應協調各目的事業主管機關與前階工廠、倉庫及場所之化學品或儲存物品之種類或數量異動時,需以30日內完成更新申報及每年不定期辦理實地查核。"},{"start":1726.423,"end":1734.709,"text":"立例預防火災、搶救災害及緊急救護及保護消防人員執行職務之安全提案人委員張志倫等6人。宣讀完畢。好,我們現在進行保留條文協商。在開始協商前,我請這個"},{"start":1748.263,"end":1765.442,"text":"內政部消防署上次有特別說那個去跟所有的委員溝通齁那你們是不是先報告一下溝通沒有問題的條文有哪幾條好不好我們這樣子才節省時間嘿好不好你們報告一下兩分鐘報告一下"},{"start":1771.638,"end":1771.658,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":1789.82,"end":1812.941,"text":"這個表示理解並同意修正的意見的有徐宇專委員、張周仁委員還有蘇巧慧委員還有黃捷那個副副長你直接講哪幾條溝通好了就好了是好不好現在目前有待討論的部分有15條還有21條之一43條之一這個可能還要等部長還有"},{"start":1814.322,"end":1814.903,"text":"蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":1833.53,"end":1852.839,"text":"案。二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":1864.651,"end":1870.892,"text":"還有28條、35條、37條還有42條以上報告25條之一、25條之三、28、35、37、42是不是?是27之一勒?27條之一"},{"start":1896.167,"end":1925.11,"text":"這個有溝通了所以24條之一有嗎?有有有有都溝通好了齁?溝通好了四十三條之一四十三四十三有溝通了有你有沒有溝通好委員都在這裡喔?有四十三的有了?有有了齁?是"},{"start":1931.557,"end":1949.701,"text":"來,各位委員雖然他們說那他都有找大家溝通我們是不是兩分鐘各位委員你們再看一下講的這幾條如果確實好了那我們這幾條我們就不要再浪費時間好不好好不好阿你條文呢"},{"start":1956.528,"end":1957.049,"text":"你們條文勒?"},{"start":1987.297,"end":1987.517,"text":"修正草案案。"},{"start":2007.11,"end":2008.291,"text":"主席,主席,第37條的裏面本席有說要加重罰則,他說有溝通,跟我確定之後"},{"start":2026.26,"end":2045.6,"text":"本縣也沒接到,辦公室也沒接到,因為這條是以前我們審的事,我有意見,是不是該說一下?我現在請他印出來給大家看,口說無憑,所以我說印出來大家看一下,我們是為了節省時間才這樣。好,謝謝,謝謝。"},{"start":2849.383,"end":2860.97,"text":"好了沒?好了沒?副組長,你們溝通了,怎麼樣?"},{"start":2872.203,"end":2880.307,"text":"跟召委報告基本上委員都對我們事件溝通的一些剛剛報告的沒有問題啦溝通的條文沒有問題所以我再次跟各位委員確認一下25條之1、25條之3、27條之1、28條、35條、37條、42條有43條就是都溝通都沒有問題"},{"start":2902.728,"end":2928.385,"text":"就照現在溝通的,他們印給我們的這個溝通的版本通過,是不是?蛤?剛剛不是都給你們?對啊!欸呀,為什麼25之一沒給人家?我這邊有啊!25條之一他說溝通,嘿嘿,對,照院版"},{"start":2937.472,"end":2957.818,"text":"但主席沒分耶你們怎麼沒人?你們為什麼要給人家?他是照院班啊好大家再看一下再給大家兩分鐘時間好不好?"},{"start":2964.908,"end":2977.574,"text":"在各位委員你們在看的時候我們現在我們請我們再宣讀再修正動議跟四個新增附帶決議好不好我們用這個時間來你們看一下"},{"start":2980.606,"end":3000.552,"text":"第21條之一,消防指揮人員搶救工廠、儲存化學品質倉庫或儲存場所及一定規模以上之實驗室或倉庫火災時其管理權人應依下列規定辦理。一、提供場所平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊。二、提供該場所化學品質種類、數量、位置平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊。三、立即指派專人至現場並協助救災。"},{"start":3002.732,"end":3024.963,"text":"4、於必要時配合消防指揮人員之指示協助調度就在所需重機械並支付所有必要費用。前項一定規模以上之實驗室或倉庫由中央主管機關匯上目的事業主管機關公告之。第43條之一,工廠儲存化學品質倉庫或儲存場所及一定規模以上之實驗室或倉庫之管理權人違反第21條之一第一項第一款規定。"},{"start":3025.663,"end":3035.009,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3049.677,"end":3065.328,"text":"第一項場所致管理權人違反第21條之一第一項第三款規定為立即指派專人至現場並協助救災處管理權人新台幣50萬元以上1000萬元以下罰還但該場所為製造儲存或處理化學品者處新台幣5萬元以上30萬元以下罰還"},{"start":3066.369,"end":3093.457,"text":"第一項場所之管理權人違反第二十一條之一第一項第四款規定未配合消防指揮人員之指示協助調度救災所需重機械者處新台幣五萬元以上三十萬元以下罰款。第二十一條之二第一項規定之場所管理權人對於具有危害性之化學品違反該項規定位於該場所明顯位置設置危害風險標示板或危害風險有變動時未及時更新或設置標示板違反同條第二項公告有關等級內容顏色大小"},{"start":3093.897,"end":3100.585,"text":"或設置未知之規定者處管理權人心臺幣2萬元以上、150萬元以下罰款。提案人委員牛許廷等3人"},{"start":3102.116,"end":3109.898,"text":"副代決議4、參照內政部108年11月15日1070428桃園市晉鵬工廠火災全方位檢討策進專案報告及監察院113年9月4日113裁調0031號調查報告。雖相隔已有5年之久,為檢討問題仍圍繞於化學與化學品資訊內容不足因應救災需要。消防主管機關石英站在第一線消防消災人員"},{"start":3129.662,"end":3144.155,"text":"角度並依救災實務經驗確實通盤檢視化學與系統所提供資訊是否有待強化之處,如資料仍有不足或借鑒系統無法精進優化而無法滿足救災需求者,消防主管機關應參著《韓國消防設施設置及管理法》。"},{"start":3144.795,"end":3162.443,"text":"以救災觀點針對管理特定消防安全物資需求建立並運作電腦系統以資訊化系統化管理方式來管理運用,並由消防機關利於主導地位試工廠及倉儲火災救災情況,獨立建置符合救災需求之資訊系統,以確保資訊權之落實。"},{"start":3164.864,"end":3188.838,"text":"有鑒於此請內政部消防署於本案三讀通過後一個月內呈報獨立救災資訊系統評估及進行報告到院提案人委員牛許廷等三人。附帶決議五為持續追蹤大型倉儲消防設施列管進度四本案三讀通過後請內政部消防署於六個月內將其進度及成果報告送交立法院提案人委員牛許廷等三人。"},{"start":3190.307,"end":3204.73,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3218.912,"end":3236.157,"text":"內政部消防署應於本修正案三讀通過後6個月內責成各地方消防機關擬定策略方針,就其狹內重點工廠及倉儲演練,並將資訊權納入演練一環,以防患未然角度,在災害未發生前先行了解與規劃。提案人委員牛許廷等3人。"},{"start":3237.537,"end":3251.865,"text":"副代決議7本法修正通過後義勇消防組織為協助消防緊急救護工作除編組訓練演習服勤外其他相關事項應以本法所定為限提案人委員張志倫等4人宣讀完畢好各位委員大家都有看了"},{"start":3260.796,"end":3266.233,"text":"沒什麼問題啦齁那我在這邊跟各位再宣布一下齁所以我們"},{"start":3268.367,"end":3279.314,"text":"有修正的25條之3、27條之1、28條就照修正過後的條文通過。然後呢,25條之1、35條、37條、42條、43條就不予修正照原本通過。各位委員,我們是不是就這樣子。好,謝謝。那我們現在開始,我們從15條開始,好不好。好,來。"},{"start":3297.518,"end":3313.451,"text":"來,各位委員有沒有都沒意見來,牛委員先"},{"start":3314.432,"end":3339.261,"text":"我們上次不是有討論其實在上一次審議的過程中雖然沒有完全達成共識但基本上方向上有確定就是說這個吹哨者保護的部分就是有寫多列一項叫單位主管跟僱主為前項行為之一者無效那這條有沒有加進去來消防署報告委員這一條我們已經加進來了是"},{"start":3343.444,"end":3345.064,"text":"你們修正過的印給大家。"},{"start":3397.318,"end":3409.286,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":3417.542,"end":3432.911,"text":"然後就穿恐龍裝或是你可以就是對帶寵物然後騎裝騎裝衣服你就可以用萬聖節的裝扮然後然後帶寵物去跑來我問一下消防因為這個"},{"start":3433.587,"end":3453.789,"text":"具消防署當初來溝通的時候其實有跟其他相關提案委員有做過說明嗎?因為當初的爭議就是說要不要把這個法律輔助相關的一些配套機制來做做明定入法嗎?那天當初其實在這部分比較沒有共識那我想請問一下消防署在這段時間跟當初提案委員溝通的一個狀況跟結果有沒有取得大家的認同?"},{"start":3455.689,"end":3467.735,"text":"跟委員報告,目前這個洪委員,洪孟凱委員的辦公室人堅持,那有意見,說要把這個法律輔助把它放進來。剛剛那個黃捷委員"},{"start":3479.377,"end":3488.999,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":3504.522,"end":3527.018,"text":"因為怕畢竟就是吹哨者條款所以雖然前面的這一些他的像吹哨者回報進度的這些很具體的事項沒有放進去但是這個精神一定要要在所以我在這邊還是嚴正的表達我的立場就是一定要嚴格的保護吹哨者的身份好謝謝好謝謝然後蘇喬惠委員"},{"start":3530.869,"end":3540.133,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3557.961,"end":3584.451,"text":"以依照勞動基準法的第74條的文字,不管是說僱主不得因勞工為前項申訴而予以解僱、降調、減薪、損害其依法令、契約或習慣上所影響的權利或其他不利之處分,那或者是說僱主為前項行為之一者無效,或者是說應該在接到申訴後在60天內將處理以書面通知勞工等等,"},{"start":3585.371,"end":3603.724,"text":"這都是依照勞動基準法第74條來寫成的文字,這是我的版本。不過經過溝通之後,我是也感謝消防署這邊,因為等於是你們是部分參裁部分調整,比如說這個"},{"start":3605.845,"end":3629.641,"text":"在前面的這個地方你們是說既然勞動基準法裡面寫的非常多的調降啊減薪啊損害其法律等等就是跟現在的其他不利處分差不多你們想要這邊是精簡一點甚至等於是概括式的也許還有其他也可以加入那我也是可以同意啦所以這一段的話是可以照這個署這邊內政部的意見接受"},{"start":3632.543,"end":3655.925,"text":"那另外的話60日據了解你們現在的意思是說其實不見得應該要把這邊寫上去因為其實各地方縣市政府依循其內規甚至有在60天以比60天短太多的狀況所以反而不要特別寫一個60天反而讓現在有的好速度降速了那這個我當然更可以同意了解啦"},{"start":3656.465,"end":3683.162,"text":"那不過最後第三點的這個部分因為我也是堅持那你們也是同意了所以我是也希望說各位同仁在這個我們今天拿到的修正動議的第二頁背面這邊的這個紅字的這個部分所謂單位主管僱主為前項行為支持者無效這個部分既然消防署這邊已經同意了那大家也聽到我剛剛的說法其實就是參採勞動基準法那是不是大家在這個部分也可以表示支持這邊謝謝"},{"start":3687.194,"end":3710.786,"text":"還有沒有委員對這個有所以他們就是所以是就是照到現在給我們看這個修正修正過後通過啦好好那15條就照這個我們這個修正動議的這個修正通過好謝謝"},{"start":3714.403,"end":3728.432,"text":"那再來我們21條之一來各位21條之一有什麼有什麼意見主席"},{"start":3738.27,"end":3740.492,"text":"修正草案案案。二、繼續審查委員"},{"start":3757.408,"end":3781.705,"text":"現在乾脆就推給工廠管理可是我們現在審的是消防法不是經濟部的工廠管理所以消防署說條文這樣寫以後消防署是不能去監督也無法處罰那我們對於這一些平常就應該要更新的資訊就沒得掌握所以這一條本席希望能夠堅持 謝謝好 謝謝委員的一個"},{"start":3786.355,"end":3801.989,"text":"等一下等一下,還有沒有其他委員?好,那副組長你先說一下。好,謝謝委員的一個指教。因為這個條文把一定規模以上的實驗室跟倉庫把它拉進來。"},{"start":3803.764,"end":3826.822,"text":"在我們條文的精神裡面,就是一般的倉儲的業者,如果這些倉儲的業者平常要備制這些東西,像物流業者,他不斷的要去更新他的儲放的位置,這樣會造成業者的一個困擾,而且事實上我們在救災的時候,我們是希望危險物品儲放的位置在哪裡是比較重要的,而且"},{"start":3827.992,"end":3834.928,"text":"當然一般的物品我們都把它當成易燃性的物品在看待"},{"start":3835.902,"end":3852.145,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3866.936,"end":3887.423,"text":"我們也就是說如果不是危險的當然我們也不會去管他不過他裡面的25條之一裡面是有把這個就是搶救工廠儲存化學品之倉庫或儲存場所及一定規模以上之實驗室及倉庫火災"},{"start":3889.831,"end":3896.295,"text":"這跟我們原來的把它設定成為化學物品的這些場所是有相背離的。這個是因應這個倉儲啊,大型的倉儲業者來做相關的一個資訊提供啦。主席主席"},{"start":3909.058,"end":3928.91,"text":"事前副市長你明確說明一下在許委員他是希望給我們消防人員有一定的公權力針對所有的倉儲等等只要有化學危險物品等等的我們有一定的這個公權力可以保護到周邊的這些安全那你在這一個"},{"start":3929.75,"end":3955.633,"text":"修正動議裡面是不是有把這個釐清清楚也就是說我們擔心一定規模以上的實驗室或倉庫由中央主管機關會商目的事業主管機關公告之也就是說只要是有危險化學物品的這些相關的場域已經在21條之一的這個規範裡面了是不是再說明清楚"},{"start":3957.664,"end":3967.473,"text":"謝謝委員的一個指導當然我們的精神剛開始的時候是一定規模是把所有的這個工廠"},{"start":3969.369,"end":3988.42,"text":"原來的條文是工廠的一個發生火災以後要提供相關的一個資訊那在那個現行的條文第一款就是提供化學品的一個種類不過我們後來這個委員有建議有建議是把一定規模以上的倉庫"},{"start":3990.842,"end":4002.035,"text":"這個倉庫範圍就很廣了這剛我講的一般的倉儲那這個在外界在市面上這樣子的一個工廠的配置是很多的而且雖然"},{"start":4004.758,"end":4006.039,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":4026.921,"end":4038.875,"text":"還有他的儲存數量要隨時更新。在資料的更新建置的部分在化學署有建置一個化學雲這個化學雲已經把"},{"start":4041.858,"end":4059.698,"text":"目前相關的主管機關包括勞動部包括化學署包括經濟部的相關主管的這個微型物品都要求要建置納入到這個化學雲系統裡面的一個資料庫跟委員報告。愛妞委員"},{"start":4064.321,"end":4080.672,"text":"這樣子齁 這個我們理解啦 在消防署跟溝通的過程之中現在納管的範圍變大了嘛 這一點我們覺得算是一個進步的地方那 文字上齁 最早是講最嚴格叫申報嘛 然後再次一次一等叫備制嘛 然後現在這個院裡面現在講叫提供嘛 那"},{"start":4081.512,"end":4099.901,"text":"這個差別在於說如果被置換你當然平常就有所謂的稽查義務當然防護的是更周密的但相對來講對於基層的工作負擔也增加了這個概念是這樣好那現在改成如果真的用提供這樣的話就變成是我只有在救災當下我才知道有或沒有嘛對不對所以衍生出來的問題一個是這樣"},{"start":4101.721,"end":4123.612,"text":"如果我們今天要接受大家溝通的版本用提供的話那我們至少要確保兩件事第一個你本來因為他有輕重緩急嘛就是你的工廠跟化學品你平常有沒有一個完整稽查的制度能不能跟大家做清楚的說明以安民心就表示說即便法條上沒有寫得非常的嚴格但是你該做的事情還是都有做這第一個要件要必須被滿足"},{"start":4124.512,"end":4149.047,"text":"在法條上才有退讓的空間。第二、如果只是提供,那表示只有災害發生的時候,我們才處理這件事情。那麼相關來講,如果他真的沒有處理好,我們在前面又沒有辦法嚴防於前,那就一定要重罰於後。也就是說,待會43條的時候的罰則,我希望大家就往上把它加。因為你現在平常,我沒有,不見得會隨時稽查,那真的出現悲劇的時候,那就一定要重罰。"},{"start":4149.767,"end":4150.128,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員"},{"start":4163.207,"end":4192.236,"text":"欸等一下齁其實啦各位委員我們大家都在講都是想要讓他們更好啦我覺得21條之一的第一項的第二款我們如果在位置平面配置圖後面寫多一個總量位置平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊並及時要上網或什麼的我覺得啦這個一定是一定規模的不是每個啦"},{"start":4192.876,"end":4215.703,"text":"那你現在的有我們的AI我們的定位那其實這個是非常簡單的我們就只針對化學品他要隨時24小時他就往上可以查得到那他有任何移動也是都可以看得到我覺得這樣子就解決大家的疑慮了啊這也是我們這是有一定規模以上啊不是每家都要求啊我覺得"},{"start":4216.806,"end":4241.572,"text":"我覺得我們不應該給第一線消防弟兄更多的壓力但現在是科技可以解決的東西那我們就去解決啊或是立法說明把它說清楚我覺得大家一律就沒了啊我像徐委員剛剛講的也是類似這個意思啊對啊啊這個都已經是什麼時代了還是一個人一個人去看的嗎這只要大家都知道嘛"},{"start":4242.748,"end":4256.488,"text":"GPS定位什麼的他有沒有移動有沒有什麼馬上一目了然啊很清楚啊用科技去處理事情啊對不對我不知道各位委員這樣我們對不對這樣子是不是大家可以解決大家的問題了主席"},{"start":4261.355,"end":4262.856,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":4281.03,"end":4308.487,"text":"那不要因為增加因為這樣子的隨時更新需要去檢查增加平時的負擔但有沒有其他的做法比如說定期的比如說你定期的發函請他們把最新的資訊回回來等於也就是說他們對對就是一個機制我們要的是其實大家都是為了整個的安全然後不要有這個遺憾的事情發生所以我們才會想到這個好不好這兩點謝謝"},{"start":4311.425,"end":4335.44,"text":"來 署長先說抱歉剛才在應變中心剛離開第一階段剛結束要繼續進行那剛才委員很感謝委員這麼關心消防法那針對委員剛才用科技的方法這是目前正在進行的一個作業那目前部長這邊特別交代兩個部分要處理一個就是國土署裡面的建築平面資料那我們已經跟國土署協調好這平面資料"},{"start":4336.32,"end":4361.493,"text":"即使的平面資料上網,我們會把這個資料介接到我們119派遣系統,這是第一點。那另外就是在環境部、勞動部還有經濟部,他的化學工廠這些申報資料跟平面圖也都在網站上。那我們也跟化學署協調就是這些資訊我們在消防署這邊會備份一套在這邊。"},{"start":4362.634,"end":4389.55,"text":"那怎麼樣把化學署這邊這麼多的資訊轉換成我就在派遣的時候可以用化學署是目前已經同意了所以已經同意把這個備份在我們這邊所以剛才趙紀仁所提到的即時用資訊的部分我們現在正在進行那這個進行的狀況就是要給我們一些時間就是怎麼把已經放在化學署的資訊跟國土署的資訊這個平面圖"},{"start":4391.604,"end":4410.919,"text":"整合成我們要用的,所以明年開始我們有5年的計劃,要針對119派遣系統的部分整個更新。那同時化學所資訊放在消防署,備份在消防署,我們要直接擷取裡面的資訊也比較方便,那大概都已經寫得好,所以委員關心的這些想法,"},{"start":4412.6,"end":4427.494,"text":"化學署的資訊裡面這些資訊包括經濟部他是要定期甚至即時要申報的所以平面圖跟化學資料這個是在網站上資料所以透過這樣的一個整合可能要委員容許我們一些時間"},{"start":4428.735,"end":4448.581,"text":"那這樣作業我們是已經計劃正在進行當中跟委員報告那如果說比較成熟一點這個資訊的狀況可能我們就會呈現給委員讓委員來了解說我們到底做到什麼程度那這些資訊是各縣市依舊我們都直接連線那資訊的分享這個目前講重點啦是各位委員"},{"start":4454.534,"end":4477.083,"text":"我覺得這樣署長你也是照這個方向去做啊照這個方向做我們就寫進去我們特別在立法說明寫清楚等跟環境部或什麼那個看多久時間才開始去執行這個對啊我覺得這樣就好啦就大家不用在這裡在那邊這一條在那邊等那麼久啊"},{"start":4479.073,"end":4498.918,"text":"處長看法?好,可以嗎?所以你剛講的就已經要做了啊?對,這些就是已經在上面了。不是不是啦,朝這個方向這樣來修法,認同嘛。好,那認同,你們現在趕快去寫文字給我們看嘛,我們進行下一條嘛,我們不要在這邊浪費資料。你還有意見,不好意思。"},{"start":4500.498,"end":4524.711,"text":"因為我其實有在修正動議啦,所以其實要處理,因為我們就加了一點,這個其實上次有初步討論,然後也有溝通,但我們這邊再做個釐清啦,就有關於這個救災的時候的重機械的調度啦,因為有些特殊狀況的時候其實可以調度重機械,那我們是覺得說以企業社會責任的角度來出發,你真的有這樣子調度的時候,其實有業者來支付相關的費用,其實因此合理。好,那這件事情是這樣,我本席認為這個是叫進步立法,"},{"start":4525.351,"end":4549.446,"text":"如果我覺得這次的消防法可以有把這樣的條文修進去其實對於大家來講都是得分的但是如果真的部裡面或者是署裡面有顧慮的話那我至少也要在這個地方討論的時候確定一件事因為桃園的這個火防自治條例是有把這樣子的條文寫進去的那我至少要確定這個東西未來送到行政院裡面的時候他不要被到時候去講說母法未允許或什麼的而被抵觸我至少要確定這件事"},{"start":4549.926,"end":4566.851,"text":"但我希望的當然是能夠在今天的討論中如果在全國有一次然後有這個進步立法我覺得也是這個修法的亮點是不是再花一點點的時間來做討論以上是不是麻煩把我的那個那個再修正東西也放上去其實跟前面都一樣但是我只是多了第四點而已好不好麻煩一下議事人員謝謝"},{"start":4572.044,"end":4592.17,"text":"本席想再強調就是說我們消防單位的檢查跟其他單位不一樣所以消防署我們是不是比如說剛剛劉委員說的我們罰則然後加上不定時抽查不是要造成我們第一線消防人員的這個負擔而是消防的檢查不要推給其他單位"},{"start":4593.816,"end":4613.265,"text":"那這個抽查或者是你發函請他提供最新資訊什麼我想都可以或是像我們朝委說的我們現在用一些科技資訊但是消防單位因為你的消防檢查就是你消防單位你要負起這個責任好不好我們希望今天修法能夠把握這個精神"},{"start":4615.567,"end":4638.329,"text":"我一關心就是檢查,檢查就是我們現在的狀況,包括消防安全設備檢查都是委由,消防設備是來做處理,那我們是抽查的狀況來進行這個狀況,就是不要讓這個工作又變成我們另外的一個負擔,那主要我們是想把這個責任放在業者身上,那後面的罰則我們是罰的很重喔,"},{"start":4638.869,"end":4643.852,"text":"公務員報告就41條之3,這八則都很重,你只要打到這個部分我會處理。"},{"start":4656.109,"end":4680.987,"text":"我們你們趕快去照我說的你要增加或什麼文字大家你們先擬一下那我們進行下一條我們不要在這邊一直打轉好不好這樣子才快啦那重機械我是不是報告一下重機械的部分地方自治條例這個我們都會支持因為就是個案的方式因為這個要收費齁在我們的收費裡面是違法的部分"},{"start":4682.205,"end":4697.794,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4710.501,"end":4724.818,"text":"假設可行業者可以接受也許我們下一次這個狀況多我們下一次也許納入我們母法的一個處理是不是可以用這個方式來處理這個我說明一下我在法條裡面寫的是配合指示所以其實消防單位在救災的時候他是有裁量的空間"},{"start":4725.979,"end":4730.421,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":4757.772,"end":4776.827,"text":"確定就核准了嗎?對不對?不會有不能適用的問題嗎?自治條例你們有準博的意見嗎?他不違反母法你們沒有準博的權利啊地方議會通過的啊他們是沒有準博的權利啊"},{"start":4779.246,"end":4783.068,"text":"審查委員黃瑋媛主席主席在這裡因為我覺得這個提供這個罰款這個"},{"start":4808.655,"end":4836.863,"text":"案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4839.476,"end":4841.586,"text":"我們有一個……等一下,那個吳清明委員"},{"start":4846.668,"end":4858.996,"text":"因為事務三條之一在發生大家都環境不同地理環境不同救災的情況也不一樣為了讓我們現場救災指揮人員馬上了解現場的狀況相關負責人應該平時就要備好化學品的種類與數量"},{"start":4869.443,"end":4888.429,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4900.334,"end":4914.385,"text":"還有沒有其他委員來那個署長你說明一下感謝委員對於這個條文的一個支持跟重視那這一次的法律的修正我們是大而把這個違法的情形大而的提升"},{"start":4915.326,"end":4941.014,"text":"包括委員這邊有提到說下限跟上限的一個調整那目前我們在依照委員的一個建議我們在有一個整理就在各位委員手頭上的這個資料是委員跟我們過目一下是不是用這個方式來處理我們修正過就整合大家的意見期待說讓這個處罰是有感覺的那目前這個額度是很有感覺的一個處罰額度跟委員報告主席"},{"start":4944.424,"end":4956.587,"text":"主席 我覺得 署長我本市委員會覺得這個法款的金額太貴了我覺得要再提高法款一點來 署長你看這個民營大火跟新竹的大火造成這麼多事情出來我覺得這個法款 署長你看怎麼處理"},{"start":4974.79,"end":4986.634,"text":"是,感謝委員的一個指導在第43條之一我們是把這個儲存這些場所那邊提供這些資訊的時候或者資訊不實的時候這處罰2萬元到50萬"},{"start":4990.695,"end":4999.578,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":5009.142,"end":5018.113,"text":"第三項是針對於沒有立即派員協助救災,甚至提升到50萬到1000萬元,這是額度蠻高的狀況。當然不是化學物品處理場所,當然我們額度就在5萬到30萬。"},{"start":5027.441,"end":5044.36,"text":"會有他的有沒有化學物品的程度的一個差距。那最後一項是兩萬到一百五十萬就是針對標示版這種狀況的情形大概分別把不同的違法情形就前面條文有所講述到的這些違規狀況"},{"start":5045.882,"end":5064.243,"text":"我們都已經有做這樣的一個處理跟列述那看委員這樣的一個處理跟列述這個額度在我們消防法、立法到現在目前的額度是最高的我們的在所有的歷史資料裡面還有我們目前的修正條文裡面這個條文處理法處罰的是最高的"},{"start":5066.96,"end":5068.54,"text":"蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5092.441,"end":5113.074,"text":"那王委員,你直接說,你認為要多少啦?那個3萬到38萬那個齁,那個提高3萬到1千萬3萬?沒有,王委員我們用他修正這個來說一下,你說第一項"},{"start":5127.08,"end":5135.244,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5150.282,"end":5153.283,"text":"蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文"},{"start":5181.002,"end":5199.421,"text":"看委員有沒有再有知道的意見這個額度是也在提高的當然還好我們就是有個Range在啦就是有下限跟上限那到時候處罰這種情形我們會針對處罰的情形來做一個分析跟處理來 林委員"},{"start":5200.441,"end":5224.234,"text":"我還是關注在倉儲的部分因為現在以列管的方向來講應該都是以大型的倉儲為優先所以大型的倉儲當然就是可小可大就是說如果他沒有提供資料或沒有配合救災的時候小的狀況你當然下限低一點沒有關係可是我覺得因為是大型倉儲的納管萬一造成像美孚或家樂福這種大型的影響的時候我認為這樣子的上限是不夠的所以我認為上限應該要佐證"},{"start":5225.154,"end":5227.557,"text":"消防法部分條文修正草案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5241.693,"end":5242.193,"text":"二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5271.913,"end":5272.413,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5286.041,"end":5301.366,"text":"是感謝委員行事法的部分有行事法的處理的一個造成傷亡這個部分另外有條文在處理一個區塊那是不是我們是行事法的部分等一下委員再跟我們指教一下那行事法的那個狀況進行額度"},{"start":5303.086,"end":5304.787,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5328.558,"end":5335.554,"text":"還有沒有其他委員?沒有的話,其實署長我覺得啦"},{"start":5337.062,"end":5365.6,"text":"沒有辦法了他剛講了我覺得啦大家的看法都有一致而且我個人也是真的論我們這個43條之一其實我們一開始就有寫了它是一定規模以上的並不是針對一般啦如果針對一般你可能小型工廠我們這種法案太重不合理不合理但這是一定規模以上的"},{"start":5366.62,"end":5379.472,"text":"這個一定規模的以上,我也覺得你罰個兩萬塊是要幹嘛?你罰個兩萬要幹嘛?這是一定規模以上喔!所以我也認為應該是可以拉高一些吧!"},{"start":5380.723,"end":5382.644,"text":"蔡其昌等21人擬具蔡其昌等21人擬具蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5410.674,"end":5411.514,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5433.49,"end":5435.491,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5454.369,"end":5454.969,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5475.852,"end":5480.034,"text":"草案案件事項 。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5497.727,"end":5512.906,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5513.487,"end":5539.777,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5544.501,"end":5571.187,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續�"},{"start":5572.447,"end":5584.135,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5588.978,"end":5596.663,"text":"二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文"},{"start":5611.053,"end":5624.087,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":5642.119,"end":5645.646,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5657.975,"end":5678.906,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5684.768,"end":5703.476,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":5713.02,"end":5733.986,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5735.487,"end":5754.737,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5762.862,"end":5769.565,"text":"一、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":5783.991,"end":5791.394,"text":"管理圈人因電磁上傳至中央目的世界主管機關實驗室網路平台,因電磁上傳至中央目的世界主管機關實驗室"},{"start":5812.783,"end":5831.552,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5832.341,"end":5837.065,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文"},{"start":5859.283,"end":5872.759,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5877.705,"end":5903.971,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、繼續審查"},{"start":5906.252,"end":5917.844,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5922.408,"end":5941.353,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":5943.393,"end":5964.14,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5969.102,"end":5989.78,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬"},{"start":5991.481,"end":5993.222,"text":"草案案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等21人擬具"},{"start":6007.692,"end":6014.595,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":6028.413,"end":6030.495,"text":"三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6057.773,"end":6064.018,"text":"三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員"},{"start":6078.611,"end":6080.132,"text":"規範公佈公佈公佈公佈公佈"},{"start":6102.206,"end":6105.267,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6123.411,"end":6124.352,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6153.251,"end":6181.54,"text":"提供一時提供就發動火災收藥業我要你提供的時候你才提供我還沒有我來不及提供備次就是你要準備好意思就是說反正意思就是說現在就是你就是要提供你不提供我就重罰你我了解可是你是用備次去所以一定罰得到因為你提供沒有提供他也罰得到意思就是說一時提供我摘的時候他只要來東西我消防署關於是幹嘛對 我是說消防署就是他不管你不提供你沒有提供就罰你"},{"start":6183.1,"end":6185.461,"text":"捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文捷等21人擬具"},{"start":6208.467,"end":6234.127,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":6237.809,"end":6240.97,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6258.781,"end":6272.898,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":6276.005,"end":6278.97,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6296.254,"end":6320.91,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6327.414,"end":6354.261,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。九、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":6355.401,"end":6366.175,"text":"消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6372.904,"end":6382.515,"text":"修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6389.964,"end":6401.39,"text":"副委員你的疑慮應該是在最後認定的處罰到底是有備制還是因為處罰因為43條他最後消防署這個認定他是處理43條這個範圍的或者是21條這個認定會有問題認定處罰的到底要適用哪一條發生火災就是處罰"},{"start":6416.838,"end":6418.98,"text":"審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6441.055,"end":6442.817,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6452.114,"end":6459.499,"text":"條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":6470.665,"end":6472.886,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6494.484,"end":6496.886,"text":"對、對、對,沒有提供,提供卻也不實的,就會罰免。"},{"start":6509.824,"end":6531.743,"text":"二、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"},{"start":6538.788,"end":6557.418,"text":"消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6563.801,"end":6565.062,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6579.83,"end":6580.551,"text":"43條之一、第2項 。"},{"start":6603.946,"end":6632.385,"text":"不是 這個不是最後的 你沒有把調整過的路段適當打好了打好了打好了 等一下會呈現多一點好了沒 好了好了好了 這一分鐘可以喔 也可以喔有法規不就愛支持 愛說 愛記不是啊 沒有先溝通齁 我聽到沒先跟你溝通有溝通有溝通 這個法條很重要 你看特別都不太來 都不記不支持"},{"start":6633.462,"end":6635.185,"text":"一、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6649.104,"end":6671.095,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6673.356,"end":6674.838,"text":"案。三、繼續審查委員黃捷等21人擬具"},{"start":6688.59,"end":6708.106,"text":"只有火災發生所以說火災發生你沒有提供你沒有提供可是我認為這有個問題那我就不提供我不提供才罰我不提供我不提供才罰五十萬我提供了虛偽罰三百萬那我不提供啊對不對沒有啦都可以罰到三百啦不提供跟虛偽"},{"start":6715.673,"end":6719.442,"text":"未提供或提供有啊 就寫未提供"},{"start":6723.013,"end":6728.975,"text":"規定未提供長途行政委員會執行長途行政委員會執行長途行政委員會執行長途行政委員會執行長途行政委員會"},{"start":6749.372,"end":6753.735,"text":"蔡其昌等21人擬具蔡其昌等21人擬具蔡其昌等21人擬具蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":6781.462,"end":6799.655,"text":"好來各位委員那手頭上都有拿到修正過了嗎的這個條文都有拿到了嗎那是不是請各位委員你們看一下這樣子的修正大家有沒有意見OK"},{"start":6807.403,"end":6831.369,"text":"都OK吼?好,謝謝各位,那我們就21條之一就照修正過後通過,43條之一也照修正過後通過,但我這邊要補宣告一下吼,我們剛剛第43條吼,是維持現行條文不予修正,不是照原版吼。"},{"start":6832.829,"end":6844.376,"text":"剛剛第43條已經處理過了,我重新宣告一下,是維持現行條文不予修正。我們現在要來處理附帶決議。"},{"start":6858.386,"end":6882.346,"text":"有七項,那第四項、第六項委員同意修正,然後接我們是不是就按修正條文通過?都有齁?那第一項、第二項、第三項、第五項、第七項我們全部照案通過?好,沒有意見齁?"},{"start":6883.615,"end":6909.327,"text":"好那我們請宣讀協商結論消防法部分條文修正草案保留條文協商結論第15條修正通過第21條之一修正通過第25條之一照行政院版通過第25條之三修正通過第27條之一修正通過第28條修正通過第35條照行政院版通過第37條照行政院版通過"},{"start":6910.387,"end":6919.077,"text":"第42條造行政院法通過第43條維持現行條文不予修正第43條之一修正通過通過附帶決議7項以上報告"},{"start":6922.497,"end":6948.555,"text":"好,請問各位委員,照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過,請問有異議?沒有。沒有異議,通過。那本次會議審查通過之條文條次引述條文部分文字及相關法制用與授權主席及議事人員整理,然後請內政部將本次審查時有修正之條文如有補充立法說明,盡速送至委員會,並列入公報紀錄,納入審查報告,"},{"start":6956.78,"end":6968.047,"text":"討論事項所列議案消防法部分條文修正草案案。即22案均以併案審查完略,分別擬具審查報告提報院會討論。請問在場委員需不需經黨團協商?不需"},{"start":6975.393,"end":6987.024,"text":"所以本案與院會討論時,由本席張昭吉委員張宏祿做補充說明。好,沒意義齁?好,那本次會議到此結束,現在上會。"},{"start":7001.766,"end":7013.549,"text":"修正草案案。三、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。四、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。五、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。六、繼續審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文》案。"}]}},{"id":"156254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade7fa9b5d499e67a4b67ff13663af3209e74469bb67173b597a3e401defcf2fd2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:43:04 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"我舉個例子公用計程車UBER以前本來在臺灣他不願意落地後來政府要求他落地所以這個東西要考慮第二個將來如果越來越多人投資這個領域之後你希望的是讓他們分散自己個別在這邊公司交易還是要集中有交易所"},{"start":491.043,"end":518.38,"text":"這個交易所公部門公權力要介入的範圍到哪裡如何讓它公式公信能夠公開那如何政府在這個交易裡面以後可以收到一部分的稅金這個事業你們也要考慮在內這個確實是我們在內部討論的重點因為確實我們覺得說未來市場的發展我們不是只看這26家我們是考慮到國際的競爭以及臺灣這個產業未來要怎麼樣定位跟發展所以剛剛委員剛才提到了有沒有辦法大型化"},{"start":519.741,"end":541.195,"text":"可以把它更規範化這件事情對市場秩序這是確實我們在考慮的重點也謝謝委員的提醒我覺得這個要考慮在內因為這個東西既然已經是國際化你如果能夠拉回到本土落地然後在臺灣能夠有比較好的交易的這些規範甚至讓政府也可以抽到稅對臺灣、對投資人都是一件好事"},{"start":541.795,"end":567.064,"text":"所以這個都是必須要考慮的謝謝你願意納入考慮我現在提一個個案最近期貨公會對於70歲以上的人你們說70歲以上的投資以前你只有同意專業投資人跟一定的資產以上的那就等於認為他是專業投資人才可以做70歲以上期貨的投資嘛那你現在把這個解禁了讓一般70歲以上的年紀人的大的人"},{"start":568.154,"end":592.716,"text":"因為會去通知期貨有時候不是只有他自己主動意願有時候是被動、被邀約、被廣告拉進來那年紀大的人70歲以上如果他沒有這方面的專業能力那你以後都光靠這些自律光靠這些期貨商的自律這樣子有辦法嗎你認為這樣子的政策是對的嗎"},{"start":594.877,"end":622.69,"text":"確實陳主委員提醒的就是我們過去在基於一個就是說用一個年齡做一個區分那其實我們也觀察到了當然年齡當然是一個集體的表徵但是其實很多人他其實在某個年齡以上比如65歲以上他其實並沒有在很多地方並沒有衰但是我們在政策上卻不做任何的區分一律予以這個排除我想在一個金融的這樣的服務上面我們也是非常的"},{"start":624.331,"end":651.827,"text":"這個審慎的拿捏我們只是說要求我們的這些業者不要以完全以年齡作為區分比如70歲以上就完全不准做任何事情我希望他們更…不是喔他原來的政策是70歲以上你如果原來就是專業的投資人你本身就有測試到這個期貨這個領域或是你的資產到達一定的規模因為你那麼大的資產你來投資應該是比較相信你會有審慎的考慮嘛是本來不是不准"},{"start":652.848,"end":676.049,"text":"是有條件的准許但是你現在變成完全由這個交易的這個來這個KYC來認識客戶然後由工會這邊來處理讓證券商來處理證券商當然希望能夠做越多生意越好但是這時候你要注意有沒有受到邀約引誘然後投到這個領域裡面來他對這個東西是不了解"},{"start":676.71,"end":701.306,"text":"不是那麼了解的人突然之間進到這個領域裡面來他能夠好好的處理嗎沒錯這是我們監理官應該做的我們剛剛講說我們其實最簡單的做法就是幾歲以上禁止其實上我覺得這個在未來比如說我們高齡化社會來到的時候我覺得我們這要更細緻的考慮剛剛委員提醒我覺得我會請我們同仁不會是以這個就是特別是未來有些不當交易的這些部分我們會好好來做這個把關"},{"start":702.307,"end":730.016,"text":"那不然另外一個要求就是說如果是這樣子的話被你用客戶、認識客戶的人自己他們這個期貨上市也去處理的話那如果有違規的話你是不是要加很多倍的重罰對,如果有不當的這個勸誘誘引的話不適合沒有落實KYC因為我在這邊13年了我們非常多次的金融風暴都是期限的監管不到後來沒有想到那麼多或是比較自由化就有人就利用這樣的漏洞"},{"start":730.636,"end":741.704,"text":"產生了問題之後集體化之後就變政治問題這個是要先考量在前面謝謝委員提醒我想這部分我們剛剛局長也聽到了他應該回去我們會來趕快來研究這個問題好謝謝你謝謝委員的提醒謝謝好謝謝秉瑞委員接著我們請戴思寶委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"156247","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156247","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade3c9e72393eef766a67ff13663af3209e74469bb67173b597a189f99eb07134245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:30:11 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000億元的大關那對照本國銀行在新南向"},{"start":439.136,"end":465.641,"text":"這個國家經濟發展下換款額度的成長請問主委你認為政府6年內打造的亞洲資產管理中心有哪些條件比這些發展中國家更具有吸引力能夠讓金管會流財財是財產的財百分之百達標你認為呢謝謝委員指正剛剛委員提到一個非常重要就是說"},{"start":467.102,"end":491.882,"text":"剛剛委員第一個題目就是說臺灣的那個金融業市場競爭力可以從這次的新南向的發展還有向全世界國際上的擴張可以看得出來當然比如說臺灣的金融業的實力可以在其他地方發揮我們是非常樂觀其成剛剛委員也提到就是說臺灣相較於這些南向的國家有何相對的這些競爭優勢我想我在上一次的委員會的時候也有做一些說明就是第一個"},{"start":493.183,"end":516.696,"text":"臺灣確實在民間財富還有就是我們國際我們臺灣的多面向的產業有競爭力的產業上還是有很具有一些優勢我覺得我們推動各項措施能夠留住本國人的財富交由本國的金融機構來管理我覺得這是應該是一個很正確的方向主委啊不是本席說不看好更不是要唱衰政府的政策因為在"},{"start":518.717,"end":540.065,"text":"政治穩定及稅制優惠等優勢下新加坡不斷吸引全球富豪的資金紛紛湧進甚至於臺資銀行在新加坡的換款及存款比重都明顯成長"},{"start":543.606,"end":568.252,"text":"對此對比這個留財就是財產的財留在臺灣卻要面臨不定時而且不間斷地緣的壓力我想地緣壓力您看很清楚這個選擇資產外移反而能兼具高獲利和分散風險那我請問主委試著站在國內富豪的角度你認為這些有錢人會怎麼選呢"},{"start":570.085,"end":584.023,"text":"包委員我想上次提到這個主題的時候我也提到我們的分析就是說其實上對一個資產或資金而言它的投資有多面向那它的考慮點有多面向當然比如說成如像新加坡、香港以資金運動為主"},{"start":584.684,"end":611.676,"text":"主的這些金融中心有它的優勢但是我剛才跟委員報告過其實臺灣有非常好的投資機會還有就是我們本國未來的不管我們的資本市場還有很多的其他市場的發展我覺得都具有吸引力我們是希望適合臺灣的資金我們並不是說完全要把比如說那個各式各樣的資金都要留在臺灣因為資金的需求跟目的是多面向的我們是希望發揮我們的優勢吸引我們可以吸引的資金留在臺灣"},{"start":612.276,"end":625.31,"text":"因為成立亞洲資產管理中心人才的培育、養成以及穩定性是絕對性有網友發現新加坡招募喜晚宮月薪高達新波"},{"start":630.296,"end":646.454,"text":"新加坡波幣3,250元折合新台幣差不多7萬9千多差不多8萬塊左右相比臺灣薪資物價環境我請問主委薪資過低的情況人才都沒有辦法留住了你認為"},{"start":648.076,"end":662.65,"text":"錢財又憑什麼能夠留住還是你認為我們資產管理中心的薪資結構應該和國內薪資環境脫鉤必須有相當程度的差異這樣才能夠和其他國家一較高下的機會"},{"start":663.311,"end":692.128,"text":"所以剛剛委員的指正事我最近也有看到一些節目介紹臺灣的年輕人到新加坡工作的這些的分析但是他們其實也有反映說其實雖然薪水高但他的生活成本也非常的高而且他們也有說若有機會的話臺灣有機會他還是願意留在臺灣所以我剛才講我們推出了很多計畫比如說大股市計畫、大投信計畫這些我們都希望我們的金融業趕快趕快的成長起來提供更好的機會留住我們的年輕人"},{"start":692.908,"end":720.191,"text":"當然我認為留財是很重要那因為我一直最近在觀察其實現在很多年輕人很麻煩因為他們你看跑那個就是做服務業Uber、Uber 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委員長早那這個很高興今天能夠再跟僑委會討論一些相關的事項那這個今天比較不熱鬧今天隔壁很熱鬧希望我們不要再被這些噪音所影響那今天有兩個問題第一個還是僑界聯繫的問題另外一個是中國滲透的問題是"},{"start":29.632,"end":46.99,"text":"一開始這個是我在4月的時候大概有問過就是在海外的台灣人可以做的事情那因為總統最近也成立了這一個全台灣這一個這個全社會的韌性的這樣的一個委員會所以台灣尤其是以內政相關的這些相關盤點的業務也變得越來越多"},{"start":48.752,"end":76.381,"text":"那4月的時候呢那時候我們有我記得那時候在海外也有提到就是這一個相關的這個民防訓練民防體系本來就很重要那其實海外台灣人也是蠻多可以做的事情那我記得那時候在立陶宛的時候有跟委員長討論過有這件事情那質詢的時候也問過說有在規劃啦所以呢這邊是我們那時候有想到一些可能在海外的台灣人一樣能夠協助當台灣今天陷入危險的時候能夠做的事情"},{"start":76.801,"end":79.563,"text":"僑務委員會對這方面的規劃大概有哪一些委員我們會利用既有我們原本都在做的事情來升級跟強化比方說歷年來我們很多天災的時候海外僑界都會募款募資所以像這樣的這個聯繫的穩定"},{"start":94.256,"end":94.416,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":113.16,"end":113.32,"text":"委員長沈伯洋"},{"start":131.546,"end":144.138,"text":"尤其因為近年來在海外中共的統戰手法確實是非常的多所以我們這個持續性的包括這一次我們的這個僑務委員會議來自全球的僑務委員總共167個我們就開了兩門這個專題演講第一門就是如何辨識假訊息以及防止詐騙那第二門呢我們就是談到這個如何用"},{"start":155.469,"end":155.689,"text":"委員長沈伯洋"},{"start":171.966,"end":172.186,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":191.241,"end":191.441,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":221.801,"end":244.816,"text":"來彙整謝謝委員長那剛剛我覺得提到有幾個點非常的重要就是關於資訊的散佈這件事情因為在這一個比如說戰爭爆發的時候有可能資訊是不流通的那我們需要把正確的資訊送給這一個送給國際社會那剛剛有提到就是說因為我們現在其實可能就要先做一些相關的也不能說演練但至少練習就是說資訊怎麼給他們他們怎麼傳遞我覺得這個機制一定要存在"},{"start":249.179,"end":276.796,"text":"所以像這一個我們最近看到這一個2758號決議其實就是我們看到海外很多台灣人是站出來的那但是他們站出來的時候一定手上也是需要一些資料嘛需要一些論述嘛所以如果今天僑委會跟海外這個僑報的這個聯繫海外台灣人的聯繫資訊是很快的能夠到他們的手上然後他們也很快的能夠組織不管是上街然後還是呢去等廣告等等之類的這個機制如果能夠越做越快的話"},{"start":277.216,"end":277.376,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":295.792,"end":295.812,"text":"委員"},{"start":317.643,"end":322.765,"text":"你這個提示對我們來說很重要剛好我也想到幾個例子因為2020年因為疫情發生那我們由於要台灣Can 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最後時間到了我稍微提醒一下就是我目前看到以海外的這個立場來講對台灣比較有認識的然後又是屬於次世代的最主要都是遊戲界遊戲界所以如果對遊戲界能夠有更多的接觸讓他們因為他們都知道在這個網路上遇到這些中國的玩家的時候要做什麼樣的一個舉動遊戲界對我們來講它的重要性如果他也可以透過變成我們"},{"start":517.191,"end":520.217,"text":"臺灣現在的儲計管道對我們是很大的幫助這個是一個非常好的提醒謝謝我們會來努力希望總預算能夠趕快過關我們就能夠做很多後續的事項"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":145,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時46分）謝謝主席。有請委員長。"],["主席：來，委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：沈委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：委員長早。很高興今天能夠再跟僑委會討論一些相關的事項，今天比較不熱鬧，今天隔壁很熱鬧啦！希望我們不要再被這些噪音所影響。今天有兩個問題，第一個還是僑界聯繫的問題，另外一個是中國滲透的問題，那麼一開始，這是我在4月的時候大概有問過，就是在海外的臺灣人可以做的事情，因為總統最近也成立了臺灣全社會防衛韌性這樣的一個委員會，所以臺灣尤其是以內政這些相關盤點的業務，也變得越來越多。4月那時候，我記得在海外也有提到相關的民防訓練，民防體系本來就很重要，其實海外臺灣人也是蠻多可以做的事情。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：我記得在立陶宛的時候，有跟委員長討論過……"],["徐委員長佳青：去年。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，有這件事情。質詢時也問過，說有在規劃，所以這邊是我們那時候有想到一些可能在海外的臺灣人一樣能夠協助，當臺灣今天陷入危險的時候能夠做的事情。不知道僑委會現在對這方面的規劃大概有哪一些？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們會利用我們既有原本就在做的事情來升級跟強化，比方歷年來我們很多天災的時候，海外僑界都會募款、募資，所以像這樣聯繫的穩定跟作法，我們會持續的來強化、升級。此外，怎麼對其他的國際社會進行相關的溝通跟宣導，這件事情是我們現在積極覺得要提升的地方，因為海外僑民總是會最關心自己母國發展的一些狀況，所以我們都持續的把最新的資訊提供給他們。除了透過我們例行性的社群平臺，我們也會開一些專業的課程，包括怎麼樣防制假訊息、怎麼辨識這些認知作戰的模式，尤其因為近年來在海外，中共的統戰手法確實是非常的多，所以我們持續性的加強，包括這一次我們僑務委員會議，來自全球的僑務委員總共167個，我們就開了兩門專題演講，第一門就是如何辨識假訊息以及防止詐騙；第二門，我們就是談到如何了解臺灣全體全民防衛的機制，請了兩位專家來做專題演講，很多委員都覺得他們收穫良多，所以他們回去會各自在他們的僑區繼續辦理各項座談的活動，這就是我們用這樣擴大衍生的方式。除此之外，我們也透過急難救助協會，因為全球我們有一百多個，定期性專業課程的演練也是我們持續在強化的。","除此之外，怎麼發揮公眾外交的聯繫管道，這個我們會持續地，不只是在第一代，我們也強化第二代、第三代，讓他們知道正確的資訊，然後也會運用他們的人脈去鏈結，定期地去散播或者是溝通，讓臺灣最新的處境、狀況可以被瞭解。尤其是有些是疑美論、疑什麼論、疑什麼論，對於這種可能認知作戰的訊息，我們就要定期、不定期地去提供，同時我們也廣泛地蒐集各種資訊來彙整。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝委員長，剛剛我覺得幾個所提到的點非常重要，就是關於資訊散播的這件事情，因為在戰爭爆發的時候，有可能資訊是不流通的，我們需要把正確的資訊送給國際社會。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛有提到，因為我們現在可能就要先做一些相關的……也不是說演練啦！但至少是練習……"],["徐委員長佳青：準備。"],["沈委員伯洋：就是資訊怎麼給他們，他們怎麼傳遞，我覺得這個機制一定要存在。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以像我們最近看到第2758號決議就是，我們看到海外很多臺灣人是站出來的，但是他們在站出來的時候，手上一定也是需要一些資料、一些論述嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以如果今天僑委會跟海外僑胞、海外臺灣人的聯繫，資訊可以很快地到達他們手上，他們也能很快地組織，不管是上街，還是登廣告等等之類的，這個機制如果能夠愈做愈快的話，最後如果發生風險的時候，當然就會更理想。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是除了這件事情以外，我覺得還有兩件事情也是滿重要的，第一個就是物流跟金融。剛剛有提到一點金融，就是說如果海外臺灣人要捐錢，要怎麼樣做之類的，但問題是金融體系到時候也會有崩潰的問題，所以這件事情要怎麼去建立，有可能要請專家也跟海外的臺灣人講一下物流跟金融。尤其是物流，畢竟我們在海外很多都是商人做貿易的嘛！他對物流其實是非常地瞭解，可能也有長期配合的公司，所以這一些在關鍵的時候，他可能會怎麼去request對方、要怎麼去幫忙，一開始可能就要有這樣的一些想法。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，你這個提示對我們來說很重要，剛好我也想到幾個例子，因為2020年疫情發生，由於我們要Taiwan Can Help，所以當時是我們把物資運出去，所以當時就運了一些防疫物資或者是口罩這件事情，也讓我們的僑界大量學習怎麼快遞、把物資彙整、運送以及散播。這樣反向來想也是一樣的，所以對我們來講，這些一次又一次做Taiwan Can Help的事情，事實上反而對我們的組織聯繫是很有幫助的。","還有歷年來所謂加入國際組織的這些宣導活動，也讓僑界……尤其是向下扎根的時候，臺灣這些更年輕的第二代、第三代的孩子們在認識臺灣之餘，更重要的是，他們可以主動地向主流社會去宣導各樣的訊息，這個活動也在在地讓他們知道這個connection、怎麼運用大眾系統的訊息、怎麼樣去進行人脈的鏈結。"],["沈委員伯洋：我看了業務報告裡面已經有提到幾個……第2758號的這個我今天先跳過，因為剛剛有稍微提到第2758號。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個業務報告裡面有提到「發揮草根力量向主流社會爭取支持」，這個剛剛委員長有提到，我看到了滿多都是跟廣告有關，或者活動、論壇、遊行等各式各樣的都會有。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛有講到第二代、第三代這件事情。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為現在第二代、第三代畢竟在網路世界有時候對他們來講是非常重要，中國其實很擅長做在網路世界的宣傳，他們會去接觸世界各地的網紅。現在有很多尤其是像美國、英國的網紅，他們其實有認知到「臺灣」這件事情，所以會很願意，甚至根本就不用有任何花費，可能就會親自去找臺灣的一些譬如說高中生、大學生來做一些拍攝。","其實僑委會可以做為一個橋梁，是因為當他們有這樣意願的時候，有這個橋梁對我們來講其實會是一個很大的幫助。因為次世代在瞭解臺灣的時候，他們是透過網路來瞭解而不是透過智庫來瞭解的，也不是透過街頭的活動來瞭解的，這個我就認為對我們來說是特別重要的。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，跟您報告一下，過去兩年，由於我們經費拮据，很多宣傳工作在政策面上都沒辦法擴大，但是我們有想一些好的idea。由於年輕次世代對於通訊軟體的高度運用，所以我們現在都拜託他們說，你們這個活動結束的時候要拍一個影片，或者做一段什麼東西放在你們各自的臉書或Twitter上面去強化推播，這個我們事實上不花什麼錢，就去選拔他們，給他們一個獎。透過這樣的方式，事實上一方面帶動了這些學生、帶動了這些年輕人怎麼去運用這些媒體通路。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。時間到了，最後我稍微提醒一下，我目前看到，以海外的立場來講，對臺灣比較認識，然後又屬於次世代的最主要都是遊戲界。"],["徐委員長佳青：遊戲界，對。"],["沈委員伯洋：如果對遊戲界能有更多的接觸，讓他們……因為他們都知道，在這個網路上遇到這些中國的玩家時要做什麼樣的舉動。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：遊戲界對我們來講有它的重要性，如果它也可以變成我們讓大家知道臺灣現在處境的管道，對我們會有很大的幫助。"],["徐委員長佳青：這是一個非常好的提醒，謝謝，我們會來努力。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，希望總預算能趕快過關，我們就能夠做很多後續的事項。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，感謝沈委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝委員長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，委員長請回。沈委員，你剛剛講的是遊戲間？"],["沈委員伯洋：遊戲界。"],["徐委員長佳青：遊戲界。"],["主席：就是手機遊戲的那個？"],["沈委員伯洋：對。"],["主席：我是確認一下。","我們接下來進行詢答的委員是林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":232,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","洪申翰","馬文君","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","林憶君","陳永康","黃仁","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","賴惠員"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00003"}}},{"id":"156252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade2a79a1b27dde838d3b480ede9050f16a74469bb67173b597198a39e653668eca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:42:43 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屏東是民進黨執政"},{"start":313.03,"end":323.143,"text":"我們的照服員還照服員有一些工作還是去幫收紅白包的而且是在那邊收禮台的他都是民進這在做服務民進黨的事情好不好謝謝"},{"start":325.011,"end":348.398,"text":"好對針對移工來說我們希望因為我們常常跟移工的工作是性質是接近的所以我想說是不是有一個平台可以跟原民會溝通跟原民會溝通移工嗎對啊因為移工可能會當然其實委員其實我們在開放移工的時候我們也會邀請原民會來跟我們跨國力勞動力政策諮詢小組一起討論的"},{"start":349.418,"end":371.653,"text":"我的意思就是說我們的工作可能也會被移工搶走所以這個部分在原理上面我們會考慮這個部分其實我們在服務業方面的移工一直我們都很謹慎就是這個因素我們有考慮原住民的這邊就業的問題我想還有一個是我想知道是針對老化的這個過程裡面有沒有什麼一些新的想法"},{"start":373.286,"end":399.675,"text":"是現在中高齡就業是我們主推的項目那麼我們也預計希望在每年增加10萬的中高齡勞動力人口這個是我們現在的工作目標好那我昨天看一些新聞有看到我們現在連炸雞店都找不到人那已經月薪到6萬之前都講說缺工是在傳統產業現在連服務業也缺工那你有沒有什麼對策"},{"start":400.728,"end":429.915,"text":"市委員我今天的報告就是也跟您就是希望跟委員會報告就是說事實上現在所謂的缺工是缺什麼樣的工我們要弄清楚那我們這次做的缺工統計呈現的就是說所謂服務業的缺工也是中階技術人力比較缺啦那中階技術人力他是要有一定技術能力的他也不是那種基層體力工缺所以在這方面我們會加強禁用中階技術的人才包括對本國"},{"start":430.768,"end":458.146,"text":"以及我們針對這個像橋外生這樣的中間技術的問題我先問一下就是關於廢棄物的處理的工作有沒有禁用移工的一個可能性有我們已經通過了9月的時候開放新增處理業等三個資源回收行業這樣的移工大概有限制人數嗎或者是說他的這都一定有配額的"},{"start":458.886,"end":458.906,"text":"謝謝盧縣一"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":264,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（9時42分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長早。之前我有問過你一個問題，也就是針對112年原住民族就業狀況的調查，你有沒有跟原民會討論？"],["何部長佩珊：有，有討論，一直都有會商。"],["盧委員縣一：我希望知道你們是每個月有討論，還是一季一次，還是半年一次？我想知道你們的頻率。"],["何部長佩珊：我們之間有平臺對口，不定期都有。"],["盧委員縣一：好，那就針對結論來看，我們上次講到，25到54歲原住民族的勞參率比全體民眾低。第二個，也就是我們從事的工作，有營建工程業、製造業、住宿及餐飲業，然後再看到非典型工作，原住民族就業者從事的比率高於非原住民族，針對這個問題，我想問一下，現在職務再設計勞動部有補助10萬元，針對我們原住民族從事比較多的營建工程業、製造業、住宿及餐飲業，有沒有相對應地做這方面的設計？"],["何部長佩珊：有，委員，我請署長來跟你解釋。"],["盧委員縣一：可以舉例嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實原住民在目前職務再設計計畫的使用上，其實是跟一般對象完全一樣，因為我們目前職務再設計就是基於他的一些工作、一些職能需要做一些改善，所以主要大概就是在中高齡跟身心障礙者，如果原住民也符合這種情況，其實是可以一體適用。"],["盧委員縣一：可以嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：可以適用。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，好。第二個，我們針對初次尋職青年有一個最高補助4萬5,000元的計畫，我想請問一下，如果我們要改善原住民25到54歲勞參率低於全體國民的問題，你們在這方面有沒有一個設計，看是不是也可以沿用這方面的金額？因為你這個只有15到29歲，可是我們原住民是29到54歲比較低，你可以做這方面的一個修正或者計畫嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長回答好嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：OK。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，目前原住民如果也是初次尋職的青年，其實都一樣，這個是完全比照的。"],["盧委員縣一：可是因為你這個計畫是15到29歲，我們原住民族是25到54歲這個方面比較低，是不是就原住民的部分，可以把這個計畫修正為25到54歲？"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，我們是不是跟原民會一起來做一些討論，好嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，沒問題。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。我想請問，現在就業服務法第十二條，主管機關得視業務需要，如果有些縣市的原住民人口達到2萬人以上，可以設置公立就業服務機構，我想知道你們目前設置的情形。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我也請署長回答，好嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：OK。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，原住民人口達2萬人以上的，目前全國有9個縣市，我們也曾經跟9個縣市會商過，因為法律上是可以設，但目前這9個縣市在整個服務量能的考量上是先設據點，我們現在是補助地方政府設據點。目前已經有6個縣市，包含臺北、新北、桃園、臺中、高雄及屏東有設原住民專屬的就業服務據點，現在已經在提供服務了。"],["盧委員縣一：所以可以補助我們的設備費、房屋租金、租車費、人事費？"],["蔡署長孟良：有，是，都相關。"],["盧委員縣一：我想知道人事費的部分，你們大概是規劃一年多少？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們主要就是請原住民的就業服務員，因為他有他的一個專屬性，所以我們是請地方政府優先以原住民來提供這樣的服務。人力的補助，依照我們目前的人力安排，大概就是業務輔導員，每個月都要3萬7,000元左右，以上。"],["盧委員縣一：我想請問，現在已經錄用的，這邊有寫同意補助3名業務督導員、25名業務輔導員，我想知道他是怎麼進用的，是用考試還是用什麼方式？"],["蔡署長孟良：基本上這個是由地方政府辦理，他們有一些人員進用的程序，目前大部分都是進用有原住民身分的。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，可是我想知道他的進用方式，因為上次我們原住民族委員會被質疑，他們的族群委員全部都是民進黨的黨工，不然就是民進黨沒有選上公職人員的人，然後變成族群委員。我想知道現在這個業務督導員跟25名輔導員的進用方式，不要到最後一查，又是他們競選的、對他們有功勞的人，我想是不是有一個考試的平臺，還是進用的方式，你們可以有一個規範嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，這個我們會提醒地方政府，因為地方政府用人有一個人員的甄選程序，當然，也一定要公平、公開。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我希望是專業優先。"],["蔡署長孟良：對，沒錯。"],["盧委員縣一：而不是另外一種酬庸的方式。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你放心，我們都是讓地方政府公平、公正、公開去處理的，其實現在地方政府多數都是在野黨執政。"],["盧委員縣一：不是，因為我在屏東，屏東是你們民進黨執政，你知道我們的照服員有些工作也是去幫忙收紅白包的，而且是在那邊做收禮臺的，他都是在做服務民進黨的事情。"],["何部長佩珊：我們會提醒地方政府。"],["盧委員縣一：好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：好，最後，針對移工來說，因為我們跟移工的工作性質常常是接近的，所以我想是不是可以有一個平臺跟原民會溝通？"],["何部長佩珊：跟原民會溝通有關移工的部分嗎？"],["盧委員縣一：對啊，因為移工可能會……"],["何部長佩珊：當然，委員，其實我們在開放移工的時候，也會邀請原民會來跟我們跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組一起討論。"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是，我們的工作可能也會被移工搶走……"],["何部長佩珊：是，我知道。"],["盧委員縣一：所以這個部分。在員額上面……"],["何部長佩珊：我們會考慮這個部分。委員，其實我們在規劃服務業方面的移工一直都很謹慎，就是這個因素，我們有考慮原住民就業的問題。"],["盧委員縣一：還有一件事，我想知道針對老化的這個議題，你有沒有什麼新的想法？"],["何部長佩珊：現在中高齡就業是我們主推的項目，那麼我們也預計、希望在每年增加10萬個中高齡勞動力人口，這個是我們現在的工作目標。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我昨天看新聞，有看到我們現在連炸雞店都找不到人，月薪已經到6萬了，之前都說缺工是在傳統產業，現在連服務業也缺工，你們有沒有什麼對策？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我今天希望跟委員會報告的就是，事實上現在所謂的缺工是缺什麼樣的工，我們要弄清楚。我們這次做的缺工統計，呈現的就是服務業的缺工也是中階技術人力比較缺，中階技術人力是要有一定的技術能力，它也不是缺那種基層體力工，所以在這方面，我們會加強進用中階技術的人才，包括對本國以及像僑外生這樣的中階技術人才。"],["盧委員縣一：好，因為時間的關係，我先問一下，關於廢棄物處理的工作，有沒有進用移工的可行性？"],["何部長佩珊：有，我們已經通過了，在9月的時候開放、新增廢棄物處理業等三個資源回收行業的移工給……"],["盧委員縣一：有限制人數嗎？或者是說它的……"],["何部長佩珊：這都一定有配額的。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我想這個工作也是我們原住民常常在做的工作。"],["何部長佩珊：對，這有控管的。"],["盧委員縣一：所以我希望你們這個部分也是可以跟原民會討論。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["盧委員縣一：不要引進移工以後，也限制了我們原住民的工作。"],["何部長佩珊：是，了解。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝部長。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝盧縣一委員發言。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156251","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156251","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade9c59cef8dd20f56f4d3d0b4a24d41de374469bb67173b5973ef1174435adc4975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:39:53 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﹏﹏"},{"start":755.749,"end":771.547,"text":"謝謝委員 當然跟委員報告就是其實虛擬資產雖然沒有專庭專股但是我們的法官學院已經安排了很多的關於這個虛擬資產的研習課程那麼讓法官們在審理這案件的時候有這方面的專業知識跟我們報告謝謝沈委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":285,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時40分）主席，有請副秘書長。"],["主席：有請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：副秘書長早。今天主席排定審查「稅務行政事件審理法草案」跟「行政院組織法部分條文修正草案」，在剛才幾位委員的詢答裡面，大概有提了幾個可能值得大家討論的地方，我想今天會排這樣子的法案，有關目前稅務行政事件的審理，這部分我們會做這樣子的修改跟改革其實最主要、據我個人所知道，這是當初在107年5月司改國是會議裡面一個重要的結論，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["沈委員發惠：從107年到現在也經過這麼多年司法院的研議，今天終於在主席的排定之下，今天是不是有機會能夠審查，就我們目前稅務行政事件這些相關法案的修改，是不是能夠在今天來完成。剛才委員所質疑的幾個部分，我也希望能夠在今天的審查當中來釐清。","至於說程序上面的問題，你們為了修法所召開的研修會，這個究竟是不是公聽會的性質，這個副秘書長是不是要解釋一下，一般這樣的法案修改，你們所召開的研修會跟所謂公聽會的性質是一樣的嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，研修會跟公聽會的性質並不一樣，研修會大概都是以專家學者，比較屬於司法院內部的會議，研修會通常會持續帶狀的開，像這個法案的研修會就開了將近兩年，可能是一、二十次的會，比較成熟之後、要送到大院的時候，我們會召開正式的法案公聽會，對社會公開……"],["沈委員發惠：這個法案有沒有召開過公聽會？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有召開過一次公聽會，但是研修會開了兩年。"],["沈委員發惠：對，我知道研修會開了兩年。剛才副秘書長意思大概就是，公聽會的內容，所謂公聽，它的內容當然是公開讓社會大家來看，這才是公聽會的意義嘛！但是研修會不一樣，這是內部研討的意見，大家可能會針對各種不同的狀況，每一個職務不同的立場，大家會提……甚至研修的結果是沒有結果，只是提出問題，也都是有可能的，所以你們處理的方式是研修會沒有公開，但是公聽會一定要公開，對不對？其實說實在啦！你們這樣已經不錯了，你們有召開過一次，雖然他們質疑民間參與的人數太少，但是你看他們要修改憲法訴訟法時有召開公聽會嗎？有召開一次嗎？在那邊講得這麼大聲，沒有召開公聽會，他們修憲法訴訟法，一次公聽會、我們要求開一次公聽會，他們都不要！這程序的問題啦！但是在實質上，我認為大概有兩個問題比較關鍵，一個是這一次整個修法，有關賦稅處罰的部分是不是當事人的協力義務，按照你們的法案，賦稅處分跟賦稅債務，賦稅處分都包括在當事人的協力義務裡面，這個部分我覺得值得探討。另外一個是你們要新設置稅務審查官，到底能不能用聘用條例來適用，這個部分可能……包括你們跟考試院之間的協調還有國家整體制度的設計，我剛剛有聽到你說你們是比照公平……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那個目前就已經有，所以智慧財產法案的部分已經十幾年了，也是借調……"],["沈委員發惠：是智慧財產。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個稅審官完全比照他們的制度，我們不知道相關的這些法制上面今天有這樣的爭議，我們回去會釐清楚，因為現行都已經在運用了。"],["沈委員發惠：現行的……你剛才說……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：技術審查官，智慧財產法案的技術審查官……"],["沈委員發惠：他們除了借調以外，也是用聘用條例來聘用嗎？有嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：借調，用借調。"],["沈委員發惠：是借調而已？那借調的部分是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：法條是一樣的。"],["沈委員發惠：好，法條文字都一樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：都一樣，所以……"],["沈委員發惠：所以你們其實有寫你們要用聘用，但事實上大部分都是用……你們到目前為止都是用借調啦！目前還沒有用聘用，但是這個部分在法條上面確實值得探究，這個部分如果進入逐條的時候可以來討論，這有些爭議，但整體而言，今天排這樣的法案，我還是要請副秘書長講一下為什麼……我們不是吃飽太閒去修改稅務行政事件審理法案，事實上這個修法本身是一個進步，它還是司改國是會議本身的一個結論，尤其我們要落實總額主義的部分，我想在這一次整個修法裡面，我相信是有利於未來，不管是政府機關在稽徵或者是人民有關納稅債務的行政訴訟，我相信有很大的幫助，這部分是不是能請副秘書長稍微闡釋一下？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這次主要當然是銜接納稅者權利保護法實施之後，引進總額主義，把紛爭一次解決，大部分的爭議希望在行政法院的部分就能夠確定，不要像以往，以往行政法院就撤銷違法的……"],["沈委員發惠：過去是撤銷，然後再請稅務機關重新做處分……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：來來回回像乒乓球一樣。"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以就造成萬年稅單的問題。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["沈委員發惠：就是一個稅務爭議可能要拖好幾年，拖到甚至可能時效過了都有可能，所以你們過去所做的判決，基本上那個原處分是完全沒有在理會原處分……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為過了期間。"],["沈委員發惠：就是針對它複查的決定或者是訴願結果的處分來作為標的，這個撤銷之後你們也沒有自為判決，你們也沒有去判決看他到底應該繳多少，沒有，你們就是把這個訴願處分撤銷掉之後請稅務機關重新核課，來來回回，所以這也是那時候司改國是會議為什麼認為我們這些稅務事件的審理必須要改革啦！這次改革我看你們大致上把所謂的總額主義明文化了，把它明文化，把它放到包括第八條、第十九條，我看修改都是總額主義的落實，落實明文化，那這個改變之後，對人民的權利有什麼樣的改變？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想人民不用像以前這樣子，打一個稅務行政訴訟要請求救濟，要這樣子來來回回打官司，行政訴訟贏了，結果只是撤銷復查決定，回去行政處分，原處分搞不好還是一樣給他告，照樣給他核課，那他還要再一次……"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以我們要落實總額主義的最後，你如果不是只是單純的撤銷處分，你要在這裡自為判決，你就必須要有……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：專業的協助。"],["沈委員發惠：對，你要有專業協助，一定要有專業協助，法官怎麼去算最後你的賦稅債務到底是多少？你們基於這個原因，所以你們提出要設置稅務審查官嘛？所以是基於這樣子的原因，這是一整套的啦！也就是說，如果我們今天能夠順利在立法過程中，把這些剛剛所提的幾個爭點，把它稍微釐清，甚至做一些文字的修正，因為到等一下的逐條討論可能還有一些時間，請你們就剛才所講兩個爭議的部分，你們能夠事前稍微研究一下是不是假設……例如，你們剛剛講的，目前智慧財產的事務官大致上是用借調的，那是不是在聘用的部分你們就在文字上面，雖然過去的法令是這樣寫，但是至少我了解你們未來初期的目標是用借調的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：還是用借調，聘用是未來如果業務再擴大你們才會使用，這部分是不是能夠做一些修訂？最後，除了我們今天要做的稅務事件審理部分，我另外比較關心的還有一個問題，就是有關現在虛擬資產相關的新興犯罪案的審理，這個部分其實也相當專業，有關虛擬資產新興犯罪的部分，目前我知道的是一些地方法院都有設置專庭或者是專股在處理商業金融……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有金融專股。"],["沈委員發惠：有金融專股，但金融專股裡面有關虛擬資產的這些相關新興犯罪，這個恐怕也不是現在的商業專股能夠負擔的。有關虛擬資產，我看你們目前的商業專股設立這些專庭，你們是按照各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法在辦理，裡面規定你們是依據什麼樣的案子進入什麼類別，其實是依據法律、法令，你們按照這個附表。我看到這個附表是金融專業案件，裡面有違反銀行法、信用合作社法，你們是以違反的法令作為依據。但目前虛擬資產沒有專法。所以按照這個辦法，它現在是不會進入金融專股，即使進入金融專股，虛擬資產的新興犯罪跟傳統金融商業的這些專業知識也不一樣，所以這部分我希望司法院能夠研議，現在雖然虛擬資產沒有專法，但是這個專法現在已經在研議當中，所以未來司法院應該提早做因應，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：好，謝謝委員，跟委員報告，虛擬資產雖然沒有專庭、專股，但是我們的法官學院已經安排很多關於虛擬資產的研習課程，讓法官們在審理這類案件的時候有這方面的專業知識。"],["沈委員發惠：好。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員、謝謝黃副秘書長。"],["主席（沈委員發惠代）：接下來我們請登記第4位鍾佳濱委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},{"id":"156250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade67731afed3baee26325639a1896b059d74469bb67173b597903ae40ffbf143735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:42:47 - 09:52:41","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n二、\t審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T09:42:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T09:52:41+08:00","duration":594,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.26284375,"end":1.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.282843750000001,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.98284375,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.00721875,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.188468750000002,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.91159375000001,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.44284375000001,"end":111.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.04721875000001,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.83846875,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.47159375,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.27659375000002,"end":201.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.22721875000002,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.64221875,"end":250.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.65471875000003,"end":248.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.55721875,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.89284375,"end":266.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.01096875,"end":264.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.65596875,"end":269.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.82846875,"end":293.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.60534375000003,"end":315.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.20471875000004,"end":319.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.85409375,"end":340.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.39971875000003,"end":342.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.31909375000004,"end":344.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.75346875,"end":357.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.96659375,"end":373.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.49159375000005,"end":411.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.30846875000003,"end":491.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.67971875,"end":505.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.44159375000004,"end":532.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.36534375,"end":539.8115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.1828437500001,"end":545.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.32971875,"end":553.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.49846875,"end":545.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.6615937500001,"end":560.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.53409375,"end":590.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.45346875,"end":593.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.04409375,"end":594.3178437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.3,"end":9.882,"text":"質詢。好謝謝主席那有請部長有請部長"},{"start":17.411,"end":40.484,"text":"陳委員你好部長早安我們來快速切入我想要談轉型正義的部分第一個我想從語言的部分切入我之前其實也質詢過相關的議題我相信部長也很熟悉可是我想要再把時間往前拉一點為什麼當年的錯誤的語言政策其實造成了不管是台語、客語、原住民語所有的在地的母語其實都受到壓抑"},{"start":42.465,"end":56.381,"text":"韓國獨自尊重華語這件事情其實是我們現在最大的困境當然在一番的政策輪替之下我們確實看起來有多一些的可能性可是我還是要說就算到了2024年其實還是有相關學者"},{"start":57.782,"end":71.732,"text":"在報紙上投書說其實台語或者是很多的在地的母語會因為過去的這個不管是電視、電影或者是文化出版導致於大家都把這些母語視為是一個比較低俗的語言然後例如說這個作家就說這個投書的人就說說台語的角色經常說幾句"},{"start":76.195,"end":90.288,"text":"之類的三字經就會迅速消失或者是說這樣的話的人就會被貼標籤為壞人或是社會上沒受過多少教育的人物也就是說相關的台灣所有母語都在面臨這個困境再來我們往下看喔"},{"start":91.533,"end":110.559,"text":"其實台灣曾經是電影的大國那部長您都一直說你對電影非常熟悉我想你當年一定有印象就是因為當時鼓勵拍國語的所謂華語的電影所以當時他們可以用彩色底片可是台語片就不行了所以只能拿到黑白的底片膠捲部長有這麼一段歷史你記得嗎?"},{"start":112.6,"end":113.541,"text":"對,謝謝部長。也就是為什麼要拿電影這一塊來講。我是在"},{"start":129.497,"end":150.384,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":151.365,"end":172.625,"text":"當時因為以推行國語的名義開始要求布袋戲改為國語配音我們可以想像一下本來很好聽的台語發聲的還有那個音調的押韻因為變成華語的演出之後其實整個味道都不見了於是開始布袋戲就慢慢慢慢消失在螢光幕之前只能走入所謂VHS錄影代那個年代我講了這麼多"},{"start":173.886,"end":200.952,"text":"我們最近還看到一個非常荒謬的例子台灣Plus這個是很重要的我們對於全世界的想要關注台灣文化的人我們來宣傳台灣非常多精彩的地方可是我們最近看到有兩個爭議的點其中他用閩南來代替Taiwanese然後甚至我們在看到這一段他要介紹吸、喝這一段他讓一群原住民小孩穿著原住民的衣服然後"},{"start":202.287,"end":202.768,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw等27人擬具"},{"start":223.61,"end":229.295,"text":"所以我是不是可以快速跟部長討論一下文化部是不是應該針對相關文化產業我剛舉的都是文化產業甚至我們台灣plus的影音的製作可不可以針對這個文化產業創作台語作品的相關輔助政策更加的積極還有國家語言發展法跟促轉條例的立法精神針對台灣plus類似的事件提出改善報告"},{"start":246.687,"end":262.175,"text":"沒有問題啊。這個你的理念跟我完全一樣。好,謝謝部長。那相關的輔助政策或是更積極的促使促進各式各樣的臺灣臺語臺灣原住民客家語這個部分積極的給予協助好不好?部長。"},{"start":262.975,"end":285.878,"text":"一個月內。好,謝謝部長。謝謝部長這麼迅速的回應。那我們來看一下關於不義遺址的部分喔。我不知道,我不知道你知不知道這個故事。2023年呢,有一個報導者的報導提到,原來是台北刑務所的官社跟台北刑務所的圍牆,不只是審定的不義遺址,也是台北市政府的法定文資。那可是呢,當時的柯文哲市長"},{"start":286.559,"end":310.03,"text":"他在任內把這兩個地方OT發包發包後他竟然標榜華麗變身大賣然後讓所有去參觀的人秒到京都穿和服拍網美照篡改歷史再把這個地方名字改為榮景園區部長這些地方的文資確實他必須有權利在地方政府做這些處理但是你覺得這樣的處理是對的嗎以我在報導者看到這個最新的例子來說部長你怎麼看"},{"start":319.232,"end":319.292,"text":"部長部長"},{"start":340.991,"end":357.129,"text":"你自己這樣看起來有沒有覺得很荒謬一秒到京都穿和服拍網美照變成一個重要的賣點但是他原本的角色是原台北刑務所官社跟台北刑務所圍牆他是已經被審定過的不義遺址喔也是法定文資你覺得這樣的處理好嗎?"},{"start":358.331,"end":372.091,"text":"這個就有點像您剛才看到那個原住民的小孩在喝那個飲料一樣。我覺得我們台灣的歷史本身就是因為沒有講太清楚之後,使得大家都會有某種錯亂。"},{"start":373.473,"end":392.363,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":393.203,"end":410.208,"text":"被犧牲包括白色恐怖包括228我們一再提起這些事情的原因就是讓大家真正了解台灣的歷史上我們是如何被打壓如何成長到今天的民主制度所以剛剛講這個東西就是一個他可能就不覺得這個東西很嚴重我覺得是一個認知的問題"},{"start":411.328,"end":430.341,"text":"太好了部長你的回應我非常非常的認同我們在做人權教育的工作當中尤其我長期在跟孩子們做人權教育我覺得正確的認知是非常重要的不能只是為了好玩或者是為了網美打卡或是讓它變成市政府的一個KPI而且不只在台北市政府有發生這個案例到了南投"},{"start":431.321,"end":455.615,"text":"當年一樣是報導者的報導保存不義遺址的困境是相關的政府對不義遺址的保存根本不友善南投縣政府在2018年他們為了設置普里鎮長周義雄歡迎您的電子看板直接把鋼樑打進二二八事件的烏牛藍橋石碑當時南投文化局僅宣稱遺跡破壞不可逆"},{"start":456.175,"end":478.004,"text":"但是他們明明該有的動作例如說提報文資或者是相關當地的公民團體要提報文資他們也以行政的方法刁難所以烏牛藍橋石碑就沒有辦法成為被保護的文資從轉型正義我要回來看這件事情非常多地方的文資其實都在面臨這個困境而且我相信會越來越多只要主政的人"},{"start":478.644,"end":487.52,"text":"他對於相關的事情沒有概念沒有熱情甚至對於議題沒有敏感度他們就會做出這麼野蠻不文明的事情所以這邊我想要再次強調文化部應該要積極有角色部長你怎麼看"},{"start":493.289,"end":514.166,"text":"這些問題還是回到原來大家不覺得那個是應該要對他尊重或者不知道他的來龍去脈文化部扮演的角色在這個時機點是非常重要的那如果好部長謝謝你的回應如果我們不要等到出事了然後文化部再去函糾正我在想有沒有一個可能性文化部有沒有機會成立一個所謂中央輔導團的概念一旦"},{"start":516.368,"end":539.045,"text":"你們不管是主動地盤查、主動地去了解地方政府的需求或是當地方政府提報上來的時候你們給予協助讓相關的文化資產以及保存可以進入一個專業的討論程序而不要讓地方政府亂搞一通之後你們再去函糾正,你覺得呢?目前我們就算不義遺址這個條例裡面就有包括這一點我們跟地方的輔導"},{"start":540.253,"end":549.746,"text":"那他跟我們同樣的那些歷史建物的那個定義是一樣的。那可是他們的做法除了我剛剛說這個荒謬的不文明的粗暴的錯誤怎麼辦?我們輔導團還可以更積極做哪些事情?"},{"start":554.804,"end":580.92,"text":"我們會要這個地方政府提出一個如何保存的一個計畫提到我們這邊來可是他們如果沒有做盤查也就是說其實相關很多的配套我們需要文化部跟中央政府跟地方政府必須更積極的溝通讓這些事情可以一再一再的被討論然後被盤點然後被好好的保存跟對待我想部長這件事情非常非常重要雖然已經有相關機制但是看起來悲劇還是不斷的發生所以要拜託文化部不管透過什麼方法"},{"start":584.202,"end":584.463,"text":" «不義遺址保存條例草案》案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時43分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：陳委員，你好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安。我們來快速切入，我想要談轉型正義的部分，第一個我想從語言的部分切入，我之前其實也質詢過相關議題，我相信部長也很熟悉，可是我想要再把時間往前拉一點，為什麼當年這個錯誤的語言政策，造成了不管是台語、客語、原住民語，所有的在地母語都受到壓抑，然後單獨地尊崇華語這件事情其實是我們現在最大的困境。當然在一番的政策輪替之下，我們確實看起來有多一些的可能性，可是我還是要說，就算到了2024年，其實還是有相關學者在報紙上投書，說其實台語或者是很多的在地母語會因為過去的不管是電視、電影，或者是文化出版，導致於大家都把這些母語視為是比較低俗的語言，例如這個作家、這個投書的人就說：說台語的角色經常說幾句之類的三字經後就迅速消失，或是說這樣的話的人就會被貼標籤為壞人或是社會上沒受過多少教育的人物。也就是說，相關的臺灣所有母語都在面臨這個困境。","再來我們往下看，其實臺灣曾經是電影的大國，部長您都一直說你對電影非常熟悉，我想你當年一定有印象，就是因為當時鼓勵拍國語也就是所謂華語的電影，所以他們可以用彩色底片，可是台語片就不行了，只能拿到黑白的底片膠卷，部長，有這麼一段歷史，你記得嗎？"],["李部長遠：台語片消失在1982年，最後一部楊麗花的歌仔戲，我個人在1982年開始發動另外一波的臺灣新電影浪潮，我永遠不會忘記這段歷史。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，謝謝部長。所以為什麼要拿電影這一塊來講，我是在部長很後面才出生，在我大學的時候，我開始接觸新浪潮電影，可是我們再往回看，想要看很多台語的電影，其實根本就找不到，或是只有黑白電影，其實就是有這個歷史，我覺得只要從歷史回過來看，我們就比較知道現在我們到底要處理什麼樣的命題。其實我小時候還有一個很紅的東西，就是布袋戲，部長，你應該也有印象，對不對？好。當時以推行國語的名義，開始要求布袋戲改為國語配音，我們可以想像一下，本來很好聽的台語發聲還有音調的押韻，因為變成華語演出之後，其實整個味道都不見了，布袋戲就開始慢慢、慢慢消失在螢光幕之前，只能走入所謂VHS錄影帶的年代。","我講了這麼多，我們最近還看到一個非常荒謬的例子，TaiwanPlus對於全世界想要關注臺灣文化的人，這是很重要的管道，用來宣傳臺灣非常多精彩的地方，可是我們最近看到有兩個爭議的點，其中他用Minan（閩南）來代替Taiwanese；甚至我們再看到這一段，他要介紹「吸」、「喝」這一段，就讓一群原住民小孩穿著原住民的衣服，用非常刻板的印象，讓他們來演奏口簧琴，然後整個段落裡面其實也沒有好好地介紹這群孩子們穿的是什麼衣服、為什麼會出現在這邊，或是整個故事的場景也完全不以兒少為主體性。我要講的是，即便是我們的TaiwanPlus到現在都還出現這種狀況，我真的覺得非常、非常地荒謬。所以我是不是可以快速跟部長討論一下，文化部是不是應該針對相關文化產業，我剛剛舉的都是文化產業，甚至我們TaiwanPlus的影音製作，可不可以針對文化產業創作台語作品的相關輔助政策更加地積極？還有國家語言發展法跟促轉條例的立法精神，針對TaiwanPlus類似事件提出改善報告？"],["李部長遠：沒有問題，你的理念跟我完全一樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。相關的扶助政策或是更積極地促進各式各樣的，如對於臺灣台語、臺灣原住民語、客家語這個部分，積極地給予協助，好不好？部長，一個月內。"],["李部長遠：沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝部長這麼迅速地回應。","我們來看一下關於不義遺址的部分，我不知道你知不知道這個故事？2023年有一個報導者的報導提到，原來是臺北刑務所的官舍跟臺北刑務所的圍牆，不只是審定的不義遺址，也是臺北市政府的法定文資，可是當時的柯文哲市長他在任內把這兩個地方OT發包，發包後，他竟然標榜華麗變身、大賣，然後讓所有去參觀的人秒到京都、穿和服拍網美照，篡改歷史，再把這個地方的名字改為榕錦園區。部長，這些地方的文資，地方政府確實有權力做這些處理，但是你覺得這樣的處理是對的嗎？以我在報導者所看到的這個最新的例子來說，部長，你怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：臺北刑務所目前真正的監獄是已經整個拆掉，只剩下兩道牆，你講的這個地方是當時刑務所那些官員住的地方，然後最後發包出去變成這樣的過程，我說實話我不太知道。"],["陳委員培瑜：那你自己這樣看起來有沒有覺得很荒謬？一秒到京都、穿和服拍網美照變成一個重要的賣點，但是它原本的角色是原臺北刑務所官舍跟臺北刑務所圍牆，它是已經被審定過的不義遺址，也是法定文資，你覺得這樣的處理好嗎？"],["李部長遠：我想這就有點像您剛才看到那個原住民的小孩在喝那個飲料一樣，我覺得我們臺灣的歷史本身就是因為沒有講得太清楚，使得大家都會有某種錯亂，錯亂之後就會認為這個沒什麼關係，我們就這樣做，好玩就好，所以為什麼需要促轉條例，到我們今天要討論的這個不義遺址等等，並不是要挑起這些東西，而是要讓大家對臺灣所有經過的歷史，包括殖民時代，包括剛才講到的原住民被犧牲，包括白色恐怖，包括二二八，我們一再提起這些事情的原因，就是讓大家真正了解，臺灣的歷史上我們是如何被打壓，如何成長到今天的民主制度，所以剛才講的這個就是他可能就不覺得這個東西很嚴重，我覺得是一個認知的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了，部長，你的回應我非常、非常地認同。我們在做人權教育的工作當中，尤其我長期在跟孩子們做人權教育，我覺得正確的認知是非常重要的，不能只是為了好玩，或者是為了網美打卡，或是讓它變成市政府的一個KPI，而且不只有臺北市政府發生這個案例。","到了南投，當年一樣是報導者的報導：保存不義遺址的困境是相關政府對不義遺址的保存根本不友善，南投縣政府在2018年為了設置「埔里鎮長周義雄歡迎您」的電子看板，直接把鋼梁打進228事件的烏牛欄橋石碑，當時南投文化局僅宣稱遺跡破壞不可逆，可是他們明明該有的動作，例如說提報文資，或者是相關當地的公民團體要提報文資，他們也以行政的方法刁難，所以烏牛欄橋石碑就沒有辦法成為被保護的文資。","從轉型正義我要回來看這件事情，非常多地方的文資其實都在面臨這個困境，而且我相信會越來越多，只要主政的人對於相關的事情沒有概念、沒有熱情，甚至對於議題沒有敏感度，他們就會做出這麼野蠻、不文明的事情。所以這邊我想要再次強調，文化部應該要積極有角色，部長，你怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：剛剛講的這些問題就還是回到，原來大家不覺得應該要對它尊重，或者不知道它的來龍去脈，文化部扮演的角色在這個時機點是非常重要的……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，謝謝你的回應。如果我們不要等到出事了，然後文化部再去函糾正，我在想有沒有一個可能性，文化部有沒有機會成立一個所謂中央輔導團的概念，你們不管是主動的盤查、主動去了解地方政府的需求，或是當地方政府提報上來的時候你們給予協助，讓相關的文化資產、遺跡保存可以進入一個專業的討論程序，而不要讓地方政府亂搞一通之後，你們再去函糾正，你覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：目前我們不義遺址的條例裡面就有包括這一點──我們對地方的輔導，他跟我們對於歷史建物的定義是一樣的……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是他們的作法包括我剛剛所說荒謬的、不文明的、粗暴的錯誤，怎麼辦？我們的輔導團還可以更積極做哪些事情？"],["李部長遠：我們會要地方政府提出一個如何保存的計畫到我們這邊來。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是他們如果沒有做盤查，也就是說，其實針對很多相關的配套，中央政府跟地方政府必須更積極的溝通，讓這些事情可以一再一再的被討論、被盤點、被好好的保存跟對待，部長，我想這件事情非常非常重要，雖然已經有相關機制，但是看起來悲劇還是不斷的發生，所以要拜託文化部不管透過什麼方法，輔導團也好、平臺討論機制也好，要跟地方政府有更多的溝通，我們也希望一個月內有相關的報告，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢。","再來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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來我針對SRF跟傳統焚燒以及SRF的全球趨勢以及我們目前一般的廢棄物的總量以及我國營運的現況以及本席有一些要求那本席是非常非常肯定環境部對SRF的推動那對於全球目前每年有21的廢棄物家庭企業的廢棄物只會增加所以如何轉廢為能這個環境部講得真好這件事情我是大大的肯定"},{"start":257.837,"end":286.346,"text":"但目前的執行上當然是還沒有達到那對於另外呢我們在世界銀行預估在全球垃圾總量到2050年即將達到30億噸也會比現在的2024年增加70%所以我們環境部為了達到台灣2050的淨零碳排去推動SRF的固定再生能源關鍵是在純化跟均質化"},{"start":286.986,"end":312.923,"text":"那如何用廢機物發電這件事情這跟經濟部有關來替代石化燃油就是燃煤嘛視為再生能源達到資源回收再利用及減碳好我們現況我們講到它的料源這個SRF料源的廢紙、廢塑膠、廢纖維、廢木材、廢橡膠好我們看上表這4年來我們的整個的回收量請看最右邊的那一行"},{"start":313.703,"end":342.028,"text":"我們10958.84的回收一直到112去年的58.31%也就是說我的回收再利用之後我的百分之平均百分之另外的百分之四十以上我把這四年當中沒有回收的我們回收率嘛我們的非回收率大概百分之四十一也就是這百分之十一將近五百公噸焚化爐式去化不再利用了"},{"start":342.668,"end":349.096,"text":"好,那這就是我們的重點啊。我們SRF要不要提高廢棄物的回收率,要不然就白白500公噸就浪費掉了。而且我還要這500公噸還要花電、還要花油再去進行燃化。"},{"start":359.77,"end":362.133,"text":"好,第二個呢我們的營運狀況目前你們也很積極的環境部做了66家SRF的廠商體檢18家使用廠48家的製造廠好,這48家當中呢其實都符合品質的這個要求但留下"},{"start":377.408,"end":392.219,"text":"這是本席有疑慮的留香的結果有18家未確實申報一家是完全未申報的那也就是說理論上最佳的狀況是我的48家的製造廠全部他的SRF的燃料標是要進到這18家的可是我卻有18加1是沒有的我掌握不到的那我本席就合理懷疑他到哪裡去"},{"start":404.628,"end":405.669,"text":"我必須達到一千度欸"},{"start":426.249,"end":444.363,"text":"所以這19家18家1家我合理懷疑他到他去幫助了生殖能可是因為生殖能的燃點太低了他發電燃點太低他300度稻草就可以可以發電了那我就用1000度那這會變成什麼我奧黛西就沒有辦法管制啊這是多可怕的一件事情"},{"start":445.043,"end":448.385,"text":"好,戴奧星戴奧星這戴奧星是世紀之獨啊所以對我們對SRF的管制標準雖然叫這個歐盟無原格但是我們法規沒有這個完備所以這個環境部啊我是贊同你們剛才你的簡報當中行政指導直接提接提升為法律未接來作為SRF的這個規範但是你的規劃時程我希望能夠明確"},{"start":471.681,"end":471.701,"text":"實用廠"},{"start":489.731,"end":503.039,"text":"來 這個經濟部要看了 這使用廠18家行業啊 這個全部都沒有用在發電用途第二個 這個使用廠當中有4家排代澳新的排放是不合格哇 這個太可怕了"},{"start":506.32,"end":532.631,"text":"好 所以這邊具體要求經濟部對於發會維能經濟部對SRF使用場的建立發電的模式並進行輔導業者我希望有實際的時程規劃部長這您覺得要多久才會提供這是等一下你來回應第二個環境部您要把行政指導提升為法律未接我在這邊有三項要求你一定要給我納入第一個如何提高現有的廢棄物回收率"},{"start":533.311,"end":559.074,"text":"第二個,要求SRF的製造業者若是一般非自負的回收的分類跟分選提出有效積查SRF的產品品質的這個機制避免僥倖違法發生第三,智慧化管理,全時監控不用再用人力啦,你現在要去查它品質好不好藍點有沒有到1000,你去積查的時候都有你離開之後它就變沒有"},{"start":559.614,"end":580.7,"text":"所以就是全時監控用智慧化管理．SRF發電量與燃燒溫度的數據．已達成零代澳新的排放來經濟部跟環境部簡單回應報告委員我們大概要三個月三個月好那環境部對於你要提升這個作為位階而且先回答我你針對本集這三項在你的法規位階當中是不是應該要納入"},{"start":583.221,"end":598.41,"text":"有什麼看法?已經有列進了就是對於這一個原料來源的部分我們對於品質的規範要把它當作是一個燃料產品的品質規範它也必須要去做檢測跟驗證那使用端、使用廠它有引收標準那使用端這邊"},{"start":599.691,"end":623.252,"text":"委員所關心的我們可以信使連線的部分全部都要去跟環保局連線而且增加了帶耀性的全區物質像CO以及HCL的連線因為帶耀性的檢測是必須要到實驗室檢測沒有辦法即時那即時的部分就是在全區我們一定會把它列進來那剛剛有講到我們體檢的結果有4個帶耀性不合格的部分其實這些廠都是"},{"start":624.253,"end":624.614,"text":"好,謝謝,以上。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":138,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時39分）有請經濟部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，在本席正式進入SRF的討論之前，因為康芮颱風即將襲臺，可能再次進入高雄，所以本席想了解目前經濟部針對康芮颱風的因應是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們開始要進入所有的籌備，即將啟動因應的作法。"],["林委員岱樺：我明確地問，台水淨水場如何避免原水濁度飆升導致無法穩定供水？這是第一個。第二個，台電的緊急備處及人力調度支援又是如何？請台電、台水回答。"],["郭部長智輝：如果以高屏來講的話，會在南化水庫上面去加強。"],["林委員岱樺：去怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：他會去……就是……"],["林委員岱樺：來，台水董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請台水公司來跟你報告？"],["林委員岱樺：來，台水董事長。"],["李董事長嘉榮：謝謝委員指正。我們會從南化聯通管調度南化水庫的原水，大概一天可以調度40萬噸的水。我們還有清水系統，可以從臺南支援北高雄來做一些資源調度。高屏溪還有很多伏流水也都會全部啟動，大概可以增加40萬到50萬噸的伏流水跟地下水備援，這樣就可以取代高屏溪攔河堰高濁度所減量抽取的部分，其減少的量可以由這些水源來做調度。"],["林委員岱樺：好。台電的緊急備處跟人力調度呢？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員說明，第一個事情是，這個颱風看起來影響範圍會比上一個颱風影響大很多，南部的部分就是基本的防災應變都做了，調度的狀況是這樣，我們已經把所有休假同仁都叫回來，已經準備要做調度，但沒有辦法像上次山陀兒颱風那樣，因為之前是知道山陀兒可能就是在南部，所以我們這一次在判斷上面會再稍微晚一點，人力資源上會再稍微晚一點。","我跟您報告第二件事，這一件事很重要，就是因為它影響範圍大，而且看起來整個暴風圈要離開臺灣已經入夜，所以這一件事我們也在想，入夜之後的搶修我們要怎麼樣做因應？這一次的颱風如果真的登陸，且它的影響時間如現在氣象署的規劃，是入夜以後才離開的話，對於復電來講，很可能要11月1日早上才有辦法開始全面展開。"],["林委員岱樺：好。部長，針對上次兩個颱風，對於第一線同仁（台電、台水、中油）的颱風搶救，我是真的深感感謝，也感謝部長的調度。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["林委員岱樺：這邊我也要請你們審慎研議，針對這三個國營事業在面對颱風或是相關緊急天災的搶救時，他在搶救的待遇跟危險津貼上是否要研議提高？還是三個董事長……"],["郭部長智輝：我請國營司來回答。"],["林委員岱樺：好，國營司。"],["胡司長文中：跟委員報告，對於搶修的危險加給，我們在今年10月多的時候就已經核定了，會提高七成。"],["林委員岱樺：好。部長跟環境部，針對SRF跟傳統焚燒、SRF的全球趨勢、我們目前一般廢棄物的總量、我國的營運現況以及本席有一些要求，本席是非常、非常肯定環境部對SRF的推動，全球目前每年有20億噸的廢棄物，而家庭、企業的廢棄物只會逐年增加，所以如何轉廢為能？環境部講得真好，這件事情我是大大的肯定，但目前在執行上當然是還沒有達到。","另外，世界銀行預估，全球垃圾總量到2050年將達到34億噸，會比現在、2024年增加百分之七十。所以環境部為了達到「臺灣2050淨零排放」的目標，去推動SRF固體再生燃料，其關鍵技術是在純化跟均質化，如何用廢棄物發電來替代石化燃料，就是燃煤，視為再生能源，達到資源回收再利用及減碳？這件事情跟經濟部有關。","現況方面，我們講到它的料源，SRF的料源包括廢紙、廢塑膠、廢纖維、廢木材、廢橡膠等。我們看上表是這4年來我們的回收量，請看最右邊那一行的回收率，109年是58.84%，一直到去年、112年是58.31%，也就是說，回收再利用之後，對於另外的百分之四十以上，我把這4年當中沒有回收的，我們的非回收率大概是百分之四十一，也就是這百分之四十一、將近500公噸是焚化爐去化不再利用的，這就是我們的重點，SRF要不要提高我們的廢棄物回收率？要不然這500公噸就白白浪費掉了，而且這500公噸還要花電、花油再去進行燃化。","第二個是營運狀況，目前你們也很積極，環境部做了66家SRF廠商的體檢，有18家使用廠、48家製造廠。這48家其實都符合品質的要求，但流向是本席有疑慮的，流向的結果是有18家未確實申報，1家完全未申報，也就是理論上最好、最佳的狀況是48家製造廠的SRF燃料要全部進到這18家，可是有18+1是沒有的、掌握不到的，本席就合理懷疑他到哪裡去？他會到生質能去。這個就危險了，生質能的燃點……我要用生質能……能夠讓它成為燃燒棒，只要300度就可以讓它成為有效發電效益。但是為了要燒SRF，必須達到1,000度，所以我合理懷疑這19家、18+1家去幫助了生質能，可是生質能發電的燃點太低，300度稻草就可以發電了，用1,000度會變成什麼？戴奧辛就沒有辦法管制，這是多可怕的一件事情！戴奧辛是世紀之毒。我們對SRF的管制標準雖然較歐盟嚴格，但是我們的法規沒有完備。我贊同環境部，剛才你們的簡報當中，從行政指導直接提升為法律位階，作為SRF的規範，但是我希望規劃時程能夠明確。","我們來轉廢為能，剛才是講到它的料源。有關SRF的製造廠，在這一個表當中，你們查出了48家的製造廠，百分之五十二到七十是符合的，百分之三十到四十八待加強。至於使用廠，經濟部要看了，使用廠18家全部都沒有用在發電用途。第二個、使用廠當中有4家戴奧辛的排放不合格，這個太可怕了！我在這邊具體要求經濟部，針對化廢為能，經濟部對SRF使用廠建立發電模式並輔導業者，我希望有實際的時程規劃。部長，您覺得要多久才能提供？等一下請你來回應。第二個、環境部要把行政指導提升為法律位階，我在這邊有三項要求，你一定要給我納入：第一、如何提高現有的廢棄物回收率；第二、要求SRF的製造業者落實一般廢棄物的回收分類跟分選，提出有效稽查SRF產品品質的機制，避免僥倖違法發生；第三、智慧化管理全時監控，不必再用人力，你現在要去查它品質好不好、燃點有沒有到1,000，你去稽查的時候都有，你離開之後，它就變沒有，所以就要全時監控，用智慧化管理SRF發電量與燃燒溫度的數據，以達成零戴奧辛的排放。請經濟部跟環境部簡單回應。"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概要3個月。"],["林委員岱樺：好。對於要提升位階，環境部先回答我，針對本席提出這三項，在法律位階當中，是不是應該要納入？有什麼看法？"],["沈次長志修：是，已經有列進了。對於原料來源的品質規範，我們要把它當作是一個燃料產品的品質規範，它也必須要去檢測跟驗證，使用端、使用廠有允收標準。使用端如委員所關心的，我們可以CEMS連線的部分全部都要跟環保局連線，而且增加了戴奧辛的前驅物質，像CO以及HCL的連線。因為戴奧辛必須要到實驗室檢測，沒有辦法即時。即時的部分就是它的前驅物質，我們一定會把它列進來。剛剛有講到我們體檢的結果，有4個戴奧辛不合格的部分，其實這些廠都是主要的上市公司，有一定的規模，他們一定可以透過改善來達標，所以我們一定會跟地方環保局全面來監控，謝謝。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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choice。"],["徐委員長佳青：Yes。"],["王委員定宇：他們正式推薦可以來臺灣學華語文，所以在那一波美國聯邦政府對他們公務人員學習的獎學金是鼓勵來臺灣學習，歐洲也開始了，那個時候我就問了澳洲這個問題，為什麼我們開設這麼多華語文學習中心，到現在已經84所了，我相信對你們工作其實負擔蠻重的。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：僑務委員會是一個資源不多、業務遼闊的單位，為什麼澳洲到現在還沒有？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，因為我們上一期的計畫是從2021年到2024年結束，現在要進行第二期計畫的撰寫，委員長期的關注，我們確實有在第二期計畫把澳洲也納入，紐西蘭、加拿大等國，甚至連我們亞洲地區的部分國家也可能會納入，希望能夠開辦華語文學習中心，給想要學習華語的成人……"],["王委員定宇：委員長，我跟你建議，這些業務除了是僑務、除了是我們國力的展現，其實語文是窗戶，透過語言這扇窗可以看見臺灣民主多元、重視人權，或者我們有可以展現國力的部分，所以這是一個窗戶，當然就跟著外交的布局在走。在南太平洋，現在是臺灣跟美國共同協力，甚至加上日本在經營的外交，澳洲又是南太領導型的國家，所以澳洲設置語言中心，你剛才講的紐西蘭等南太平洋很多我們太平洋的好朋友，都可以來這邊學習。所以就你的估計，澳洲的華語文學習中心，我們僑委會有沒有一個工作的agenda，設定什麼時候會來設？"],["徐委員長佳青：雖然前4年，我說的2024年以前這一個階段是因為預算編列的時候，只有匡定美國跟歐洲，但是我們下一個階段，第二階段的中長期計畫，我們要擴大不同國家的時候，我們會把它包進來，但事實上，我們今年到明年就開始做準備了，讓我們這些雙語教材開始提供給部分僑校，有意想來申請臺灣華語文學習中心設立的僑校或僑團的老師們，讓他們提前了解我們這套教材的運用……"],["王委員定宇：委員長，當然你有你的工作進程，我們委員會、我希望了解一下你們的預算、你們明年度的計畫是什麼以及後年度的計畫是什麼，臺灣是AI的製造大國，卻是排名AI運用的第四十多吧？我們政府希望讓臺灣的AI運用、去用AI能夠超越韓國，跟我們的硬體生產匹配嘛！韓國現在是第六名，四十幾名要追到第六名以前，其實有很多努力。所以我是建議我們這一些華語文的學習中心、我們海外的僑教各方面，其實AI的導入跟運用，不管是演算法、app，算力當然是國家級的，還有一個很重要的是資料庫，所以如果透過AI輔導學習，你們就會無遠弗屆，也可以蒐集資料庫，建立屬於我們特色的AI，那個叫主權AI，所以我們現在主要是華語文，我希望未來看到你們透過AI的資料庫建構起來。傳教士想要來臺灣，想要熟悉台語、客語、原住民語，透過僑委會這個窗戶，可以接觸到教育部建構的多重語言學習這些AI的能量，我希望在僑委會的工作報告，未來可以看到這樣的主題，這樣好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝委員長。"],["主席：好，謝謝王定宇委員、謝謝委員長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：下一個進行詢答的委員是沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":232,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","洪申翰","馬文君","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","林憶君","陳永康","黃仁","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","賴惠員"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00003"}}},{"id":"156246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156246","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade0f897734d77792d43b480ede9050f16a74469bb67173b5970630bd2d7ebc433a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:29:52 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謝謝各位官員那今天想要請教部長的是昨天其實我們觀光署"},{"start":20.463,"end":35.653,"text":"對好昨天我們觀光署有講到說他們本來啊今年希望可以達到1000萬的人次因為在疫情前我們是有到1200萬但希望今年可以衝到1000萬結果到昨天他們很悲觀的認為"},{"start":37.014,"end":59.324,"text":"打到750萬下修了他們的目標啊那這個是賴總統在競選的時候曾經講到的他希望部部有觀光他希望部部有觀光各地有觀光來發展觀光的主流化來搶救我國的觀光產業這個也是部長剛剛口頭報告的時候有講到我們很需要中階的人才"},{"start":59.924,"end":75.212,"text":"啊旅宿其中之一所以我也想請問您部部有觀光勞動部這邊可以做什麼呢因為這個昨天是一個蠻大的新聞所有相關產業的人都很關注啊當然"},{"start":76.172,"end":80.293,"text":"昨天我在跟服務業的座談裡面旅宿觀光業他們也再度提出可是跟委員報告我們在這部分已經初步先開放橋外生中階人力可以從事旅宿的房屋上禮拜你說這個司機也是在研擬"},{"start":100.78,"end":101.381,"text":"現在都其實政策才剛開始"},{"start":116.616,"end":137.592,"text":"就是還沒有統計的數據還沒有真正就是才剛通過有人來申請了嗎應該才剛通過而已跟各位報告喔旅宿我們是8月開放那8月開放因為它關公署有一些相關的細節規定資格所以現在目前還在一個規劃期那已經開放那目前還在"},{"start":138.813,"end":160.145,"text":"一切宣導的過程目前還沒有來提出申請那至於剛剛委員提到我們其他開放的司機員還有一些客運貨運等等這個目前已經確定會開放那我們現在正在跟部會確認一些法制作業當中但是還沒開始申請司機這邊還沒開始不過你們已經確定開放了那除了這個旅宿業以外您覺得勞動部還可以在觀光產業上貢獻哪些事嗎"},{"start":167.105,"end":187.77,"text":"我們要先幫他解決這個勞動力匱乏的問題我們也鼓勵業者在中高齡跟婦女這方面應該要多多來利用包括我們的義後缺工改善方案其實就是為了觀光業合作的可是他們在媒合人力上那你的這個高齡跟婦女有什麼"},{"start":189.07,"end":194.772,"text":"獎勵的措施可以讓他們...他們除了我們原有的這一種55plus婦女在就業獎勵以外觀光署也有給他們補助在這方面所以是兩個部會合起來補助他們可是目前就用人力上差強人意這個方案所以這也牽涉到"},{"start":210.576,"end":226.272,"text":"這一個有沒有這一個期待跟就是說這個這個落差的問題對我們能提供的人力跟他能要使用的這樣的人力落差的問題這也是我們進一步要跟呂樹葉我們可以來跟他來再度來更精進來討論對"},{"start":228.374,"end":257.854,"text":"好再來我想請教部長的是這是去年行政院八月通過的優化跨國勞動力聘僱管理制度他是一個一年期的專案這專案其實花蠻多錢的有五億多那您當時有三個項目覺得很重要所以把它列為專案的計劃第一個是流用中階技術人力要變多這剛剛您已經講了第二是針對失蹤不明比例過高的引進移工來台國外仲介公司辦理暫停"},{"start":258.354,"end":287.572,"text":"那第三呢是要服務僱主以及家事移工並提供入境移工的指引好但是我們到今年現在已經快要11月了吧我們你已經花掉了5億2997萬其中的2億3009萬所以其實你現在還剩下一半多的經費喔超過50%總共是56%的經費那你要我想知道你再來要怎麼做你是要兩個月大傻逼嗎"},{"start":288.232,"end":311.04,"text":"還是怎麼做?這個我可以請署長來回應一下跟委員報告因為這個預算大部分是提供各部位在執行這個移工的聘務管理的一些做法那因為他們有一些經費的核銷上的一個期程上每年大概都是這樣那年底前他們會大概整個核銷的進度都會完成執行率大概都可以提高到我們的相關的預算"},{"start":311.929,"end":320.244,"text":"所以你的意思是說其實他們只是因為核銷的進度比較慢所以你到12月其實你這個一年期的計畫就會結束了"},{"start":322.897,"end":342.385,"text":"對嗎這個我們這個其實是每年的例行在辦理的一些相關的工作可以那我們來看一下你的這個執行率吼第一個我覺得中階技術人力累積許可人數ok因為有達到你的kpi我記得你們本來是設定兩萬五嗎對那比較匪夷所思的地方就是"},{"start":343.385,"end":356.476,"text":"你針對逃逸比較多的仲介公司確保外國仲介品質是0%你一家都沒有一家都沒有抓到一家都沒有發現這樣是為什麼委員那個他有三家有三家被停權目前有三家被停權你講一下"},{"start":364.998,"end":377.718,"text":"委員報告這個規定我們實施之後我們就落實現在越南因為他因為失聯的問題我們大概有已經有3家已經被我們停選掉你的報告你要更新一下嗎是這個我們再更新"},{"start":378.547,"end":402.96,"text":"那我跟你補充一下數據齁我們去年的8月失聯移工是84,339人去年等於100位移工就有11.3位是失聯最新呢113年9月是88,881人所以我們一年多了快5000人逃逸的移工4500那你現在做了這個一年期的專案啊花了5億"},{"start":404.693,"end":432.147,"text":"花了5億你覺得你抓到3家外國仲介公司這個有符合你原本幫自己設定的KPI嗎?委員這一個部分應該主要是查緝的工作查緝收容事實上我們今年還要花9千萬吧給移民署讓他去收容擴大收容這一個逃逸移工數這個部分我們"},{"start":433.488,"end":448.166,"text":"對可是剛剛才你目標應該是希望他不要逃逸啊而不是做大收容其實我們現在比起疫情期間失聯率已經下降了現在才2%嘛對那之前疫情期間都是3到4%"},{"start":449.748,"end":472.143,"text":"之後我也希望可以看到你們這個一年期的專案的結案報告因為如果說你抓到了這三家結果他們逃逸的數目遠遠跟我們這一年的差距其實是很大的那就不太合理啊是吧不然我也想問你們是怎麼去追查到這三家的你們不是應該是救人數嗎"},{"start":474.11,"end":498.397,"text":"你們不是應該是定多少人數以上的國外仲介公司所以你們才會去找嗎對他是用人數來看的那你講的出來這三家你覺得他們佔了多少比例嗎我跟委員報告因為我們現在是每三個月就會去集合所有這個國外仲介那就是依照他的引進人數跟失聯人數有一個比例只要達到這樣的一個警戒值我們就予以停權這個比例是"},{"start":499.958,"end":526.689,"text":"那個比例大概我們是有一個估算是不是會後我們再提供給委員就有設定一個比例法令上明定謝謝之後我也很期待看到你們這個一年期專案的結案報告因為你們有三次查核還有最後一次還沒做對我還有兩分鐘好下一個因為這是上禮拜很多委員會在討論的大家在討論是不是應該要新增一些國定假日可以幫我播一下影片"},{"start":530.975,"end":538.437,"text":"這是吳斯亞委員的說法我也想知道我們勞動部部長的看法如何因為當然之前這才對嘛"},{"start":562.356,"end":583.831,"text":"我想問部長因為我知道您以前是勞工運動出身的但是後來您也在勞基法的修法的時候有一個特別的角色啦所以我想知道說因為現在這個很多人關注這個新聞我們是不是應該要增加我們的國定假日不管是幾天一天兩天三天或是七天不知道您的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":585.758,"end":604.576,"text":"委員我想勞動部的立場在當時勞基法一例一休修法之後我們增加的休假日週休二日我們落實週休二日增加的這個休假日大概就是全年的總休假日是116天"},{"start":608.399,"end":634.651,"text":"當時為什麼會拿掉那7天國定假日是因為要一致化的問題就是要公務員勞工跟公務員要一致化因為那時候發生了蠻荒謬的場景就是教師解勞工放假而教師沒放假這種狀況所以全部的人都在抱怨那時候我在行政院我記得當時林全院長被罵翻所以所有的朝野立委都要求這個要趕快修法拿掉"},{"start":635.291,"end":651.817,"text":"對但是我們可以再更進步了嗎現在又過了好幾年所以這個之後本席還會在花時間跟您詳細的討論一下不過現在國際的趨勢這個國定假日加上特休日我們都是比別的亞洲國家差的"},{"start":652.817,"end":677.87,"text":"不管是韓國或是日本或是新加坡新加坡的國定假日跟我們是一樣1112天可是他們做滿三個月六個月他的特休日是比我們多很多的那現在臺灣的工時也是OECD國家裡面第四高全世界第四高亞洲第二高那這個是一個趨勢所以我也想知道部長對於這樣子的趨勢的看法"},{"start":678.69,"end":692.571,"text":"還是你覺得我們從勞基法修法至今可以不需要做調整我想當時2016年的一例一休的修法那到今天目前為止"},{"start":693.752,"end":706.987,"text":"我當時其實特休也都是增加的委員當時對出入職場的勞工甚至那特休6個月以下就增加到3天這也在全世界也是排名前面的所以其實"},{"start":710.551,"end":727.39,"text":"我跟您報告一下這個是我們跟其他國家特休的比較在我們這邊呢人力銀行統計起來臺灣的勞工平均12到15個月就要換工作可是我們要工作滿一年才可以有7天好"},{"start":728.522,"end":747.578,"text":"新加坡跟我們一樣老公只要工作三個月第一年就會有七天可是我們要工作到半年以上才可以日本的話只要出席總日數達到八成以上就可以十天的特休所以我不知道部長口中我們比較進步是跟哪一些國家來比這個我也想知道"},{"start":749.708,"end":749.808,"text":"陳菁徽"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":192,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時29分）謝謝，我想請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝主席、謝謝各位委員、謝謝各位官員。今天想要請教部長的是昨天觀光署有講到，他們本來今年希望可以達到1,000萬人次，因為在疫情前我們是有到1,200萬，希望今年可以衝到1,000萬，結果到昨天他們很悲觀地認為，達到750萬，下修了他們的目標。這個是賴總統在競選的時候曾經講到的，他希望「部部有觀光，各地有觀光」，來發展觀光的主流化，來搶救我國的觀光產業，這個也是部長剛剛口頭報告的時候有講到我們很需要中階的人才。"],["何部長佩珊：旅宿、餐飲。"],["陳委員菁徽：其中之一。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我也想請問您，對於部部有觀光，勞動部這邊可以做什麼呢？因為這個在昨天是一個滿大的新聞，所有相關產業的人都很關注。"],["何部長佩珊：當然旅宿觀光業缺工確實是一直以來他們都在訴求這個問題，昨天我在跟服務業座談裡面，旅宿觀光業他們也再度提出。可是跟委員報告，我們在這部分已經初步先開放僑外生中階人力可以從事旅宿的房務，這是最缺的部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：上禮拜你說司機也是在研擬開放僑外生，其實還沒開始？"],["何部長佩珊：已經開放了。"],["陳委員菁徽：已經開放了？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：你們覺得現在可以有多少進展？"],["何部長佩珊：您是指司機，還是……"],["陳委員菁徽：司機，還有旅宿業，都想要一併知道。"],["何部長佩珊：現在政策其實都才剛開始，就是……"],["陳委員菁徽：還沒有統計的數據？"],["何部長佩珊：就是才剛通過而已。"],["陳委員菁徽：有人來申請了嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：才剛通過而已。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，旅宿業我們是8月開放，因為觀光署有一些相關的細節規定、資格，所以目前還在一個規劃期，已經開放了，目前還在宣導的過程，還沒有提出申請。至於剛剛委員提到其他我們開放的司機員，還有一些客運、貨運等等，目前已經確定會開放，現在正在跟部會確認一些法制作業當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是還沒開始申請？"],["何部長佩珊：是，都還沒。"],["陳委員菁徽：司機這邊還沒開始，不過你們已經確定開放了？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：除了旅宿業以外，您覺得勞動部還可以在觀光產業上貢獻哪些事嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然我們要先幫忙解決勞動力匱乏的問題，我們也鼓勵業者在中高齡者跟婦女這方面多多利用，包括我們的疫後缺工改善方案，其實就是為了觀光業而做的，可是他們在媒合人力上……"],["陳委員菁徽：那你們對高齡者跟婦女有什麼獎勵的措施，可以讓他們……"],["何部長佩珊：除了我們原有的55 Plus婦女再就業獎勵以外，觀光署也有給他們補助，所以是兩個部會合起來補助他們，可是這個方案目前在進用人力上差強人意啦，這也牽涉到有沒有期待，就是落差的問題，我們能提供的人力跟他們要使用的人力落差的問題，這也是我們進一步要跟旅宿業更精進來討論的。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來我想請教部長的是，這是去年行政院8月通過的優化跨國勞動力聘僱管理制度，它是一個一年期的專案，這個專案其實花滿多錢的，有五億多，勞動部當時覺得有三個項目很重要，所以把它列為專案計畫，第一個是留用中階技術人力要變多，這剛剛您已經講了，第二是針對行蹤不明比例過高的引進移工來臺國外仲介公司辦理暫停，第三是要服務雇主及家事移工，並提供入境移工的指引，但是到今年，現在已經快要11月了，你們已經花掉了5億2,997萬中的2億3,009萬，現在還剩下一半多的經費，超過50%，總共是56%的經費，我想知道你再來要怎麼做，你是要兩個月大撒幣嗎？還是怎麼做？"],["何部長佩珊：這個我可以請署長來回應一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為這個預算大部分是提供各部會在執行移工評估管理之用，他們有一些經費核銷上的期程，每年大概都是這樣，年底以前他們整個核銷的進度大概都會完成，執行率大概都可以提高到和相關預算……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是，其實他們只是因為核銷的進度比較慢……"],["蔡署長孟良：對，因為期程的問題，只是這個原因。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以到12月其實這一年期的計畫就會結束了，對嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個其實是每年例行在辦理的相關工作。"],["陳委員菁徽：可以。那我們來看一下你的這個執行率，第一、我覺得中階技術人力累積許可人數OK，因為有達到你的KPI，我記得你們本來是設定兩萬五，比較匪夷所思的地方就是你們針對逃逸比較多的仲介公司，確保外國仲介品質是0%，你一家都沒有抓到，一家都沒有發現，這是為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，目前有三家被停權。署長講一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，這個規定實施之後我們就要落實，現在越南因為移工失聯的問題，已經有三家被我們停權了。"],["陳委員菁徽：你的報告要更新一下嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：是，我們再更新。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我再補充一下數據，我們去年8月的失聯移工是8萬4,339人，等於100位移工就有11.3位失聯，最新113年9月是8萬8,881人，一年多了四千五百名逃逸移工，你現在做了這個一年期的專案，花了5億，抓到三家外國仲介公司，這有符合你原本設定的KPI嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個部分主要是查緝的工作，查緝收容，事實上，我們今年還要花9,000萬給移民署，讓他們擴大收容逃逸移工數，我們剛剛才……"],["陳委員菁徽：你的目標應該是希望他不要逃逸，而不是擴大收容。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實我們現在比起疫情期間，失聯率已經下降了，現在才2%，之前疫情期間都是3%到4%。"],["陳委員菁徽：之後我也希望可以看到你們這個一年期專案的結案報告。"],["何部長佩珊：好的。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為如果你抓到了這三家，可是他們逃逸的數目跟我們這一年逃逸的數目是差距很大的，那就不太合理，是吧？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：不然，我也想問你們是怎麼去追查到這三家的？你們不是應該是根據人數嗎？不是應該是設定多少人數以上的國外仲介公司，你們才會去找嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對，是用人數來看的。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你講得出來這三家他們占了多少比例嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為我們現在是每三個月就會去稽核所有國外仲介，就是依照它的引進人數跟失聯人數的比例，只要達到這樣一個警戒值，我們就予以停權。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個比例是……"],["蔡署長孟良：我們是有一個估算，是不是會後再提供給委員？就是有設定一個比例，法令上明定。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝，之後我也很期待看到你們這個一年期專案的結案報告，因為你們有三次查核，還有最後一次還沒做。","再來，上禮拜很多委員會在討論是不是應該要新增一些國定假日，這是吳思瑤委員的說法，我也想知道我們勞動部部長的看法如何。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：我也想問部長，因為我知道你以前是勞工運動出身的，但是後來你在勞基法修法的時候有一個特別的角色，所以我想知道，因為現在很多人關注這個新聞，我們是不是應該要增加國定假日，不管是一天、兩天、三天或七天，不知道您的看法是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想勞動部的立場，在當時勞基法一例一休修法之後，我們就落實周休二日，全年的總休假日是116天。當時會拿掉那7天國定假日是因為要一致化，就是要公務員、勞工一致化，因為那時候發生了蠻荒謬的場景，就是教師節勞工放假而教師沒放假這種狀況，所以全部的人都在抱怨，那時候我在行政院，我記得當時林全院長被罵翻，所以所有的朝野立委都要求這個要趕快修法拿掉……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但是我們可以再更進步了嗎？現在又過了好幾年，這個之後本席還會再花時間跟您詳細的討論一下。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：不過現在國際的趨勢是，國定假日加上特休日，我們都比別的亞洲國家差，不管是韓國、日本或新加坡，新加坡的國定假日跟我們是一樣，十一、二天，可是他們做滿三個月、六個月，特休日是比我們多很多的，而且臺灣的工時在OECD國家裡面，也是全世界第四高、亞洲第二高。這是一個趨勢，所以我也想知道部長對於這個趨勢的看法，還是你覺得我們從勞基法修法至今，可以不需要做調整？"],["何部長佩珊：我想當時2016年一例一休的修法，其實特休也都是增加的，委員，當時對初入職場的勞工，甚至特休在六個月以下就增加到3天，這在全世界也是排名前面的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟您報告一下，這是我們跟其他國家特休的比較，在我們這邊，根據人力銀行統計，臺灣的勞工平均12到15個月就要換工作，可是我們要工作滿一年才可以有7天特休。新加坡跟我們一樣，勞工只要工作3個月，第一年就會有7天，可是我們要工作半年以上才可以。日本的話，只要出席總日數達到八成以上，就可以有10天的特休，所以我不知道部長口中的我們比較進步是跟哪一些國家來比？這個我也想知道。"],["何部長佩珊：我在講我們初入職場6個月以上，每年就有3天的特休這個部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：是跟其他國家比，比較好？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，相對也算是前面的，前段班。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，沒關係，謝謝主席，我們之後再來討論，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。","接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade0fe966973be32e8c325639a1896b059d74469bb67173b59706b5fab5b46a0e585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:33:16 - 09:42:43","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n二、\t審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T09:33:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T09:42:43+08:00","duration":567,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":3.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.485343750000002,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.652843750000002,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.95221875,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.188468750000002,"end":49.643468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.18346875,"end":58.384718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.229093750000004,"end":55.414718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.03471875,"end":148.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":132.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.07096875000002,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.36596875,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.09159375000002,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.00596875000002,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.01846875,"end":217.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.73534375000003,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.40034375000002,"end":239.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.69846875000002,"end":239.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.72346875000002,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.45721875,"end":247.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.49096875,"end":244.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.90784375,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.75096875000003,"end":257.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.05846875000003,"end":264.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.74534375,"end":262.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.85034375000004,"end":264.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.96846875,"end":308.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.86284375,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.45096875,"end":310.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.80096875000004,"end":316.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.20096875,"end":320.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.38221875,"end":320.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.70659375,"end":328.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.45221875000004,"end":336.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.24846875000003,"end":417.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.09659375,"end":440.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.17721875,"end":442.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.82659375000003,"end":451.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.97284375000004,"end":455.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":454.96409375,"end":457.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.96346875,"end":462.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.97971875,"end":465.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":465.61221875,"end":481.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.07596875,"end":468.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.13284375,"end":487.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.72284375000004,"end":513.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.1615937500001,"end":517.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":517.2665937500001,"end":564.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.49596875,"end":565.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.17471875,"end":565.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.30534375,"end":567.97596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":10.164,"text":"我們請柯智恩委員質詢。謝謝主席,我們是不是請部長?有請部長。"},{"start":16.687,"end":16.827,"text":"拜託,您好!"},{"start":38.14,"end":49.42,"text":"他們通常是認為是一個考古學家研究之地,所以很多人建議要把它改成人權事件紀念場域的保存條例。部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":50.199,"end":54.763,"text":"我們希望討論這樣的一個狀況當中我們要來面對歷史的一個真相但是不用在名稱上面一開始就引起一些的一些的反彈而且呢"},{"start":73.157,"end":76.639,"text":"一般來說像監察院它曾經的報告是寫就是就人權侵害事件發生地進行始積點的調查與清查這是監察院但是到了文化部之後部長雖然不是你的任內但是是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址是你們發明的所以說呢"},{"start":92.09,"end":122.09,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":122.33,"end":122.65,"text":"不義遺址保存條例草案。"},{"start":151.468,"end":154.111,"text":"我先全部問完之後他再給統一的回答因為你在解散之前你看條列出來他已經花到406.5我這個人非常的務實除剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外還有你文化部接手之後呢對於這部分你也花了50萬而且呢你在這個一"},{"start":169.028,"end":175.936,"text":"一月十四號的時候國家人權博物館的這個內容更新也花了一百九十四萬最重要的是什麼呢部長你看一下為什麼這麼多的調查我們只讀後一家而且是限制性招標這家公司從2014年成立之後的資產額只有100萬"},{"start":186.969,"end":196.612,"text":"到目前為止我們看下一張他所承接的這些所謂只要跟不義遺址有關的都是由這家公司來承接目前承接的費用是多少2365萬部長請問我們台灣這麼多家專家學者而且這家公司在成立之前我從來沒有看出他是什麼不義的專家為什麼一定要限制性佔標非這家不可從以前到現在為什麼只是同一家部長理由是什麼"},{"start":215.638,"end":224.187,"text":"這點我必須很誠實地講,我不清楚。你要不要學清楚的啊?為什麼我們全台灣的專家就只有一家嗎?就只有一家嗎?而且是限制性招標2300多萬,給我一個解釋。"},{"start":228.544,"end":248.89,"text":"關於這一家,其實我們委託有關的相關案件事實上都是涉及白孔跟不義遺址。所以只有限制性招標是這個理由嗎?我們很多專家欸。我們都是用那個採購。不會啊,我們看是公開招、公開評選的方式。而且是用公開評選的方式。然後抽到的就是同一家?"},{"start":250.07,"end":264.463,"text":"你從以前到現在就只有這麼一家而已啊,你要不要看一下後面所有的資料挑出來?你給我完全更清楚的資料,我就不相信全台灣就只有這麼一家的公司從頭2014到現在就只有一家公司來做你們的工作。"},{"start":266.843,"end":292.008,"text":"請給我全部一個素面檢查這是非常重要的還有部長對不起來我們再來看你第四條裡面特別寫到的不義遺址都要活化保存嘛那我們現在目前為止當然你現在說有很多的地方原件物已經拆除了然後你還要再活化跟教育推廣所以說呢你像已經定義為不義遺址像我們基隆港我們的野柳我們的台北橋還有包括我們家附近的青島東路三段青島東路三號還有包括我們喜達登飯店"},{"start":295.329,"end":306.854,"text":"這些都是過去屬於不義遺址。然後呢,有些是公有的,有些是私有的。那私有的話,是不是,我剛剛有聽到,你說你可以是用,他可以不用被貼上這樣的標籤,對不對?"},{"start":309.522,"end":327.57,"text":"我跟委員說明,我們現在的保存或化都是針對公有的部分。私有的部分會遵守當事人的意願。私有被公告之後會不會受到一些的干擾?他不願意但是被你公告之後他會不會受到一些的干擾?"},{"start":328.47,"end":343.054,"text":"跟委員說明在現在的處理方式上是以對財產侵害權最小並且尊重當事人的意願的情況下來進行我懂啊可是你公告之後有些地方他或許會受到一些干擾更何況謝謝我等一下還會針對這個問題請次長再上來過那我想還有一個非常重要因為你們有個條文說主管機關可以委任民間團體或是個人來做一個辦理"},{"start":353.217,"end":354.137,"text":"：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會提到：立法院第12會期教育及文化委員會提到"},{"start":378.302,"end":398.49,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":398.59,"end":402.051,"text":"然後呢8月34民國34年8月10號那天公告之後的正義才是正義嗎之前都不算正義嗎這個時間軸部長大家是非常有想法有意見的就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的我們如果要往前來算的話你看1895年的以為戰爭"},{"start":417.436,"end":439.954,"text":"我們的陶足苗的客家人到底被慘烈鎮殭這算不算不義?日本同盟時期的時候日軍殺了多好的台灣人?這樣子說起來的話身為最高的指揮中心的我們的總統府算不算是不義遺址?當初我們的行政院的陳建仁這個院長把行政院當作是228的不義遺址貼上一個標誌請問總統府是不是要貼一塊?部長需不需要?"},{"start":443.988,"end":451.234,"text":"以我們的歷史軸來去看的話總統府是日本的總督府算不算是不義遺址你需要跟行政院要不要貼上一塊我先回答這個總統府需不需要因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個"},{"start":463.154,"end":480.707,"text":"就是您剛才講的那個我們的法案有個堅決條件對就告訴你嘛你這個時間軸如果是你關上不義兩個字大家就有意見嘛你所謂的轉型正義你所謂的這個所謂的不公不義難道只有38年前的這個段時間才叫不公不義嗎其他的部分你怎麼來解釋它不是應該放出四海的普世價值嗎部長"},{"start":482.768,"end":490.151,"text":"這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有…那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算這麼久了一起把它一次要算總帳也可以啊因為這都是來就像我誠如我說的人家監察院只是告訴你是一個人權運動的方式是文化部你把它改成一個不義遺址那用這樣的原理來說的話說實在的"},{"start":506.457,"end":524.934,"text":"市民得最有機會講這個所謂的轉型正義的他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團我們再往下看所以說呢你現在已經標示了這麼多還有最後的部分裡面是不是有多少的部分你是要來標示徐聰如果他不要的話他可以拒絕但是會不會對他造成困擾"},{"start":525.635,"end":528.678,"text":"這都是我所調的問題因為時間的關係我只告訴部長這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視最重要的是不要告訴我你只限定這段時間這個時間包括你的定義都可以改更何況這個時間這是普遍的價值你不應該限定這段時間然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址對我們來說那是完全說不通的只能告訴我們"},{"start":549.719,"end":562.345,"text":"所謂的不公不義,他是放逐事態,只要是這樣子,不管他是誰,我們都應該拿出來,這才是真正的面對歷史的真相,好不好?部長,最重要是招標的部分,請給我一個詳細的說明報告,這很重要,好不好?好,沒問題,沒問題,謝謝你指教。好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時33分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。"],["李部長遠：柯委員你好。"],["柯委員志恩：我們今天審不義遺址保存條例，我想我們先來正名一下。目前不管是立法院法制局，還有很多監委、很多專家的看法認為，「不義」這名詞聽起來非常負面，且容易造成反彈；講到「遺址」，根據國語詞典的定義，通常認為是考古學家研究之地，所以很多人建議改成「人權事件紀念場域保存條例」，部長，你的看法呢？"],["李部長遠：我想這都可以再討論，因為這只是一個法案，每個委員都可以提出他要修改的……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯，我現在只提出意見，而部長當然是尊重，但我們還是希望討論時能面對歷史真相，不用一開始就在名稱上引起反彈。監察院曾經在報告中寫「就人權侵害事件發生地進行史跡點的調查與清查」，這是監察院；到文化部之後，雖然不是在部長任內，但文化部自己把它變成不義遺址，這是你們發明的！雖然不是你，但以你卓越的文字能力，是不是可以考慮改成更妥當的字眼？不要一開始就造成大家在定義上的反彈！更何況世界各國也沒有人用不義，在面對很多真相時並沒有很多人用不義一詞！其實很多國家在使用轉型正義一詞上就遇到非常多的困難，監委范巽綠也認同社會的理解必須要從和解開始，所以我覺得有正義的一方，必定有不正義的另外一方。與其用不義這個名詞，我認為還是用人權歷史場域更為妥善，未來在逐條審查時，我們會做討論。","請問文化部什麼時候開始做文化遺址調查？做了多久？花費多少？部長，我想我還是要幫你稍微review一下，因為促轉會也做了很多不義遺址的踏查，請問你們的調查跟他們的踏查差別在哪裡？"],["李部長遠：這點是不是請……"],["柯委員志恩：我先全部問完之後他再給我統一的回答。請看我所條列出來的，在促轉會解散之前，已經花了406.5萬。我這個人非常務實，除了剛剛非常多誠意性的問題之外，在文化部接手之後，這部分也花了50萬，而且國家人權博物館在1月14日的內容更新上也花了194萬。最重要的是什麼？部長，你看一下，為什麼有這麼多的調查卻只獨厚一家，而且是限制性招標？這家公司在2014年成立，資產額只有100萬。到目前為止，只要是跟不義遺址有關的，都是由這家公司來承接。到現在承接的費用是多少？2,365萬。這家公司在成立之前，從來沒有看出它是什麼不義遺址專家，所以為什麼一定要限制性招標，非這家不可？從以前到現在，為什麼都是同一家？臺灣有這麼多的專家學者！部長，理由是什麼？"],["李部長遠：這點我必須很誠實講，我不清楚。"],["柯委員志恩：有沒有誰清楚的？為什麼全臺灣的專家只有一家？就只有一家嗎？而且是限制性招標，二千三百多萬，給我一個解釋！"],["陳副館長淑滿：關於這一家，因為我們委託的有關案件調查事實上都是涉及白恐跟不義遺址……"],["柯委員志恩：這是採限制性招標的理由嗎？我們有很多專家啊！"],["陳副館長淑滿：我們都是用採購……"],["柯委員志恩：不會啊，我們看……"],["陳副館長淑滿：是公開招標，而且是用公開評選的方式。"],["柯委員志恩：然後從頭到尾就同一家？從以前到現在就只有這麼一家？你要不要看一下，把我後面所有的資料調出來？"],["陳副館長淑滿：我們有外聘評審委員，然後……"],["柯委員志恩：請給我更完全、更清楚的資料，我就不相信全臺灣就只有這麼一家公司，從2014年到現在就只有一家公司可以做你們的工作！"],["陳副館長淑滿：我們提供書面資料……"],["柯委員志恩：給我全部的書面報告與檢查，這是非常重要的。還有部長，我們再來看第四條，裡面特別寫到不義遺址要活化保存。但現在有很多地方的原建物已經拆除了，卻還要再活化並做教育推廣，既然已經定義為不義遺址，像基隆港、野柳、臺北橋，還有附近的青島東路3號、喜來登飯店，這些在過去都屬於不義遺址，有些是公有的、有些是私有的。私有部分，我剛剛有聽到你說可以不用被貼上標籤，對不對？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["柯委員志恩：是不是？"],["王次長時思：不好意思，我跟委員說明，我們現在的保存活化都是針對公有部分……"],["柯委員志恩：好，私有部分呢？"],["王次長時思：私有部分會尊重當事人的意願……"],["柯委員志恩：私有的被你們公告之後，會不會受到干擾？他不願意，但因為被你們公告了，會不會因此受到干擾？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，現在處理的方式是以對財產侵害權最小，並且尊重當事人意願的情況下來進行……"],["柯委員志恩：我懂，可是公告之後有些地方或許就會受到一些干擾，更何況……"],["王次長時思：應該是大家共同面對！"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝，我等一下還會針對這個問題提問，屆時請次長再上來。我想有一點非常重要，條文中提到主管機關可以委任民間團體或個人辦理，所以將來會不會打著不義遺址的大旗，又開始來用預算分大餅？監委特別提到，在文化部編列的預算當中，每年只有230萬到540萬，很少。我想請問，這個條例通過之後共有42處遺址，請問文化部要花多少錢來做這件事？是否會排擠目前的文化資產？所以包括剛剛的限制招標在內，你們要一併告訴我，未來在這個條例通過之後，你們在預算上到底要如何編列？還有很重要的一點，這點前面兩個委員都非常關切，在花了這麼多錢在你所重視的轉型正義上，為什麼只限定在34年8月15日到81年11月6日？然後民國34年8月15號那天公告之後的正義才是正義，之前都不算正義嗎？部長，這個時間軸大家是非常有想法、有意見的，就誠如前面兩個委員特別提到的，我們如果要往前來算的話，你看1895年的乙未戰爭，我們桃竹苗的客家人被慘烈鎮壓，這算不算不義？日本殖民時期的時候，日軍殺了多少的臺灣人？這樣子說起來的話，身為最高指揮中心的總統府算不算是不義遺址？當初我們行政院的陳建仁院長把行政院當作是二二八的不義遺址，貼上一個標示，請問總統府需不需要貼一塊？部長，需不需要？以我們的歷史軸來看的話，總統府是日本的總督府，算不算是不義遺址？你要不要跟行政院一樣貼上一塊？"],["李部長遠：剛才您提到那個1895年……"],["柯委員志恩：先回答這個，總統府需不需要？"],["李部長遠：因為我們今天討論的這個法案是現在那個……就是您剛才講的那個，我們的法案有個先決條件……"],["柯委員志恩：所以就告訴你嘛，這個時間軸如果你掛上「不義」兩個字，大家就有意見嘛！你所謂的轉型正義、你所謂的不公不義，難道只有38年前的這段時間才叫不公不義嗎？其他的部分，你怎麼來解釋？這不應該是放諸四海的普世價值嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：這個條例本身限制的時間不表示曾經發生在臺灣的所有歷史……"],["柯委員志恩：那你這個條例所限制的時間可不可以一起把它從113年開始來算，這麼久來一起把他一次算總帳也可以啊！因為誠如我說的，監察院只是告訴你這是一個人權運動的方式，是文化部你把他改成了不義遺址，用這樣的原理來說的話，說實在的，施明德最有機會講所謂的轉型正義，他告訴你促轉會只是服務掌權的一個集團。","我們再往下看，你現在已經標示了這麼多，最後的部分裡面還有多少你要來標示？如果徐厝不要的話，它可以拒絕，但是會不會對它造成困擾？這都是我所提到的問題，因為時間的關係，我只告訴部長，這些問題在我們審條例的時候都會一一來做檢視，最重要的是，不要告訴我，你只限定這段時間，包括定義你都可以改，更何況這個時間，這是普遍的價值，你不應該限定這段時間，然後根據這個東西來界定那個叫做不義遺址，對我們來說那是完全說不通的，只能告訴我們所謂的不公不義是放諸四海的，只要是這樣，不管他是誰，我們都應該拿出來，這才是真正地面對歷史的真相，好不好？部長，最重要的是招標的部分請給我一個詳細的說明報告，這很重要。"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，謝謝你，謝謝你指教。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝柯志恩委員。","再來我們請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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對不對還有什麼別的責任嗎我問你有什麼責任嘛請教就教你嘛你也只能尊重我的意見啦我就幫你回答啦沒有責任嘛"},{"start":372.318,"end":388.242,"text":"就是大法官赤裸裸示範跟大家講說從小教你不要說謊這是一個天大的罪惡啊我們小時候教育是錯的官員今天在立法院不說謊是錯的官員在立法院說謊是天經地義的今天就赤裸裸示範這件事情啊我想請財政部謝謝副秘書長來請財政部理事長請"},{"start":405.216,"end":425.434,"text":"請教次長昨天有網友爆料說財政部推廣民眾使用的雲端發票的抽獎活動雲端種樹去一起集點樹那似乎三期活動有四位民眾重複種獎很多人質疑不公那昨天晚上我看"},{"start":426.864,"end":453.356,"text":"財政部發新聞稿說抽獎都在律師的見證下進行公平公正公開至於有沒有不公的行為還在查證中我想請問財政部現在查的怎麼樣報告委員目前我還在查證中還在查證效率可以快一點我們會積極請那個主辦單位趕快辦理而且我們會將查證的結果對外來公佈我現在就直接問一件事財政部應該馬上可以回答了"},{"start":454.042,"end":467.771,"text":"有網友爆料其中一位重複中獎的人是財政部的員工如果不是請現在好好地澄清不要傷害財政部的信譽有沒有財政部員工在裡面?這部分我不清楚"},{"start":469.215,"end":469.496,"text":"委員．羅智強委員"},{"start":495.814,"end":495.834,"text":"議員：羅智強"},{"start":520.888,"end":536.919,"text":"我等一下就請我們同仁轉資我們主辦單位,馬上查證。等一下給委員會。我再請教齁,你們新文稿我想齁,第一期結束可以參加第二期、第三期嘛。只要繼續參加就有機會再中嘛,對不對?是不是?是。那請問這三期有多少人中獎?嗯...那個..."},{"start":539.912,"end":564.642,"text":"我幫你講,如果我有講錯你幫我更正網站上來看三期中獎人數將近1700人其中1680人是抽到50元到100元的禮券只有19個人抽到特殊大獎包括iPhone、手機、吉安特、腳踏車可是這19個人裡面竟然有4個人連續兩次抽到大獎我想請問這個機率有多高?"},{"start":570.307,"end":596.104,"text":"呃 這個當然如果用一般抽獎的機率 機率其實到底是多少我不確定但是應該是沒有那麼高的機率啊 所以我們也 我告訴你你要看母數啦 對不對 是因為抽獎 中獎那個連續中獎的人數四個人齁 這已經是一個所謂的數字齁 但是要看母數齁 那我想請教你查了一天齁 第一期第二期第三期分別抽獎的人數是多少 應該有了吧 可以給我一下嗎"},{"start":601.032,"end":605.659,"text":"你們昨天新聞稿有啦,報名註冊9萬多人啦,符合抽獎資格在12萬到13.6萬人嘛,這數字有錯嗎?"},{"start":616.323,"end":642.802,"text":"我們好啦我跟你講你會後再告訴如果數字有錯或是看你們的新聞我們有一個統計表對9萬人抽獎每個人可以抽獎三輪一輪有五個中獎名額第二輪有五個中獎名額第三輪有九個中獎名額請問四個人中獎兩次的機率有多少我不知道可能要算一下我告訴你啊我來念給你聽好了那機率低到什麼程度啊"},{"start":643.533,"end":661.779,"text":"我後來有找這個用CHAT GPT來演算那AI跟我講一個數字我也有請那個統計學的教授幫我問了一下他只是跟我講說這個已經小到基本上很難比尼出來然後我跟你講我看到CHAT GPT給我的答案你聽聽看是多少他告訴我答案將近十萬億分之一我想請教你"},{"start":673.765,"end":701.699,"text":"這個幾乎在生活上統計上不可能發生的事情只剩下為什麼人民會懷疑原因是什麼原因為什麼會懷疑因為在自然上基本上是不會發生的那只剩下一個可能性了嘛什麼可能性就是舞弊啊人民為什麼會覺得但機率上幾乎不可能發生所以人民會懷疑是舞弊那我要跟市長講這件事有多嚴重你知道吧"},{"start":702.861,"end":719.419,"text":"你知道這件事嚴重在哪裡嗎?請委員指示這件事在攸關財政部將來辦的任何活動的公信力啊是了解所以如果說今天這件幾乎在機率上不會發生的事情發生了"},{"start":720.837,"end":720.997,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝羅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":192,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時27分）客氣？有什麼好客氣的？我們的主席再次展現星宿黨大弟子的風範，一上來，等到黃國昌講完之後就開始了……"],["主席：委員，請尊重主席的職權……"],["羅委員智強：我需要尊重你啊？"],["主席：我尊重你的發言內容……"],["羅委員智強：你也沒尊重黃國昌啊，我尊重你什麼？你在會後那邊電他一下是什麼意思？你主席少來這一套！我幫你翻白話啦，今天司法院退席都沒關係，不用理立法院啦，我幫你翻白話啦！"],["主席：你的質詢要邀請哪一位？"],["羅委員智強：我幫你翻白話！我還沒開始時間！"],["主席：我還沒開始啊，我是問你要邀請哪一位？"],["羅委員智強：已經開始了，給我計時了啊！"],["主席：沒有、沒有，還沒開始，你要邀請哪一位？"],["羅委員智強：我還沒講完，會議詢問，對不對？主席啊，你官威是不是很大？你官威有沒有很大？"],["主席：委員請發言。"],["羅委員智強：黃國昌講完話，你還給他回馬槍補他一槍，好啦，隨便啦，問你也沒有用啦，我知道你是星宿派大弟子啦！我請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛主席講了，我們只能質詢行政院，我不知道副秘書長你來這裡幹什麼？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然，委員有垂詢，我們都會儘量回答嘛。"],["羅委員智強：他說你不需要啊，主席都說你不需要，我不知道你為什麼要在這邊？說真的……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想對於委員所說的，我們都會高度尊重。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，今天立法院審議法案跟審查預算，本來就對各院、各部會有所謂質詢之權啊，我們親愛的鍾佳濱主席又變大法官了，黃國昌在這邊質詢還違憲咧，好厲害喔，嚇死我了，了不起啊，超級無敵強的主席啊，你不要當立法委員，去當大法官快一點啦！","第二個，我想要請教一下我們的副秘書長，剛剛聽到黃國昌委員的質詢，不管是聘用條例，包括無罪推定，包括今天到底有沒有公開的、讓大家公眾周知的公聽會，看起來今天我們司法院的準備，抱歉喔，我覺得是不夠的，是不足的喔！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們是召集研修委員會，由最高行政法院院長，然後各方的意見都有參酌啦，所以……"],["羅委員智強：我看剛剛黃國昌問你一堆問題沒辦法答，但是沒關係，我問你一個問題，剛剛黃委員有說，他說向司法院要有關於委員會審議的討論紀錄嘛，結果你就說不提供嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為以往的研修會紀錄，我們會在事後彙整成冊，然後再對外公開。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，這次我站在你這邊，你知道為什麼嗎？黃國昌算什麼啊！請問你，不要講你啦，任何行政機關，立法委員跟他要資料不提供，請問這樣的法律效力是什麼？法律效果是什麼？按照這次大法官會議解釋，有要負什麼責任？大法官會議解釋出來了，有沒有要負什麼責任？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官會議是說，因為這個質詢是一個政治上面的責任嘛。"],["羅委員智強：我幫你翻白話，你講得太好了，就是沒有責任啦！所以換言之，你不提供資料給黃國昌算什麼，反正黃國昌也拿你沒轍啊！就像我跟經濟部要資料，我要會議資料，他給三份，少一份，他也沒事啊！把最關鍵的藏起來不給我，請問我能拿他怎麼辦？我請教一下副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為這次大法官的解釋是說，五院之間是共同對人民負責啦……"],["羅委員智強：哈哈哈哈哈！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對啊，所以說將來他都要去面對人民。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你啊，副秘書長，我也不是在為難你啦，這些大法官就是憲政的毒瘤啦，講白了，今天你也不過就是示範大法官的憲法判決，告訴大家，我不提供資料其實也沒關係，其實真的沒關係啊，我也搞不懂，今天有關於我們今天審查的法案的公聽會、委員會所討論的資料到底是哪一門的秘密，要保密不能給，我也搞不懂啊？今天納稅人給司法院去研議法案，去找學者寫報告，開委員會去做所謂的相關研修、討論，這些本來就是可以公開的意見啊，我們立法院今天本於要幫人民看守荷包的職責，所以才去向您要資料，想辦法去精進這樣一個所謂的修法過程，結果你資料不給我們。現在請你告訴我，我們怎麼幫人民去做監督、幫人民去看守荷包、幫人民去審定更精進的法案呢？所以今天在這裡，我也跟副秘書長講，我不認為是你的問題啦，抱歉啦，就像主席都可以上來跟你講說你沒有關係，因為基本上，不要講行政，主席也客氣了啦，什麼行政院我們對他可以質詢，對你們不能質詢，連行政院質詢都不行啦！有關於質詢，反正照我們現在大法官會議的解釋出來，官員說謊也沒事啊，請問官員在立法院說謊，依照大法官目前的解釋，要負什麼責任？政治責任，我幫你講完了，對不對？還有什麼別的責任嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員的意見我們當然尊重。"],["羅委員智強：我問你有什麼責任嘛，請教、就教你嘛，你也只能尊重我的意見，我就幫你回答了，沒有責任嘛！就是大法官赤裸裸示範，跟大家講說，從小教你不要說謊，這是一個天大的罪惡啊，我們小時候的教育是錯的，官員今天在立法院不說謊是錯的，官員在立法院說謊是天經地義的，今天就赤裸裸的示範這件事情啊！","我想請財政部，謝謝副秘書長。"],["主席：請財政部李次長，副秘書長請回。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長，昨天有網友爆料，財政部推廣民眾使用雲端發票的抽獎活動「雲端種樹趣e起集點樹」，似乎三期活動有4位民眾重複中獎，很多人質疑不公。昨天晚上我看到財政部發新聞稿表示，抽獎都在律師的見證下進行，公平、公正、公開，至於有沒有不公的行為還在查證中。我想請問財政部，現在查得怎麼樣？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，目前我還在查證中。"],["羅委員智強：還在查證？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["羅委員智強：效率可以快一點，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：是，我們會積極請主辦單位趕快辦理，而且我們會將查證的結果對外公布。"],["羅委員智強：我現在就直接問一件事，財政部應該馬上可以回答，有網友爆料，其中一位重複中獎的人是財政部的員工，如果不是，請現在好好的澄清，不要傷害財政部的信譽，有沒有財政部員工在裡面？"],["李次長慶華：這個部分我不清楚，因為我是今天早上……"],["羅委員智強：財政部的員工，你們稍微核對一下裡面的人……"],["李次長慶華：對，但是我跟委員報告，我們財政部員工也是可以參加這個抽獎活動的。"],["羅委員智強：當然，我不是、我沒有質疑財政部員工不可以參加這個抽獎，我問你的是一個事實問題啊！你不要跟我講，昨天到現在已經一天了，你連中獎的人是不是財政部員工都答不出來！"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我真的不知道。"],["羅委員智強：你真的不知道啊？"],["李次長慶華：是，我真的不知道。"],["羅委員智強：那我們還能相信你的查證能力啊！連你的員工，中獎名單都有，財政部員工的名單也有，一核對就知道有沒有，有這麼難嗎？"],["李次長慶華：這個可不可以今天我們回去確認以後再跟委員回報，好嗎？"],["羅委員智強：好啊，拜託，沒有那麼……"],["李次長慶華：好，沒問題。"],["羅委員智強：這個真的沒那麼難啦！"],["李次長慶華：是，我馬上回去請……"],["羅委員智強：其他的事實查證有困難，需要一點時間，我可以認同啦，這個連人是不是，Yes、No，這兩個名單一對就知道了，怎麼可能不知道！"],["李次長慶華：這個部分我等一下就請我們同仁轉知主辦單位馬上查證，等一下給委員回報。"],["羅委員智強：我再請教，你們的新聞稿提到，第一期結束可以參加第二期、第三期，只要繼續參加，就有機會再中嘛，對不對？是不是？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["羅委員智強：請問這三期有多少人中獎？"],["李次長慶華：嗯，那個……"],["羅委員智強：我幫你講啦，如果我有講錯，你幫我更正。從網站上來看，三期中獎人數將近1,700人，其中1,680人是抽到50元到100元的禮券，只有19個人抽到特殊大獎，包括iPhone手機、捷安特腳踏車，可是這19個人裡面竟然有4個人可以連續兩次抽到大獎，我想請問，這個機率有多高啊？"],["李次長慶華：當然，如果用一般抽獎的機率來說，機率到底是多少我不確定，但是應該沒有那麼高的機率啦，所以我們也……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你要看母數啦，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["羅委員智強：因為抽獎、中獎，連續中獎人數4個人，這已經是一個所謂的數字，但是要看母數。我想請教你，查了一天，第一期、第二期、第三期分別抽獎的人數是多少？這個應該有了吧？"],["李次長慶華：委員可不可以讓我……"],["羅委員智強：你們昨天的新聞稿有啦，報名註冊九萬多人，符合抽獎資格的在12萬到13.6萬人嘛，這數字有錯嗎？"],["李次長慶華：呃，第一期，對不起……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，你會後再告訴我啦！"],["李次長慶華：好，會後告訴委員，不好意思。"],["羅委員智強：如果這個數字有錯，我也是看你們的新聞稿。"],["李次長慶華：有，我們有一個統計表。"],["羅委員智強：9萬人抽獎，每個人可以抽獎三輪，第一輪有5個中獎名額，第二輪有5個中獎名額，第三輪有9個中獎名額，請問4個人中獎兩次的機率有多少？"],["李次長慶華：我不知道，可能要算一下。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你啦，我來念給你們聽好了，那機率低到什麼程度，我後來有用ChatGPT來演算，AI跟我講一個數字，我也有請統計學的教授幫我問了一下，他只跟我說這個已經小到基本上很難比擬出來啦。我跟你講，我看到ChatGPT給我的答案，你聽聽看是多少，他告訴我的答案是將近十萬億分之一啦，我想請教你，這個幾乎在生活上、統計上不可能發生的事情，為什麼人民會懷疑，原因是什麼？為什麼會懷疑？"],["李次長慶華：就是因為……"],["羅委員智強：因為在自然上、基本上是不會發生的啊！"],["李次長慶華：不可能的，對。"],["羅委員智強：那只剩下一個可能性了嘛，什麼可能性？就是舞弊啊！人民為什麼會這樣覺得，因為機率上幾乎不可能發生的，所以人民會懷疑是舞弊。我要跟次長講，這件事有多嚴重，你知道吧？你知道這件事嚴重在哪裡嗎？"],["李次長慶華：請委員指示。"],["羅委員智強：這件事攸關財政部將來辦的任何活動的公信力啊！"],["李次長慶華：是，了解。"],["羅委員智強：所以，如果今天這件幾乎在機率上不會發生的事情發生了，不是舞弊就算了，那你要交代清楚……"],["李次長慶華：會。"],["羅委員智強：為什麼機率上不會發生的事情竟然發生，而且不是舞弊，去查清楚。"],["李次長慶華：會，這部分我們已經儘量趕快，其實我們承辦單位已經在查證……"],["羅委員智強：但如果是舞弊，我跟次長講，財政部這件事情受創是非常嚴重的……"],["李次長慶華：了解。"],["羅委員智強：這個事情不可以輕易看待，謝謝您。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝，謝謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝李次長。","在此先作宣告：今天有委員提出臨時提案，稍後預計在上午11點處理，如屆時委員正在質詢，則於該位委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案。","接下來請沈委員發惠發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},{"id":"156243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade4613b6ff100305ee83ab49806f6884ec74469bb67173b5978b74f074e5a4b8f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:26:19 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澄清所以我們也收到一些教學單位的一些意見他說因為這些孩子因為聽不懂這個中文所以在課堂上老師講什麼都不知道所以會在課堂上面發呆啦、滑手機啦、聊天等等我想這個都不是我們應該在產學專班裡面所看到的這個狀況"},{"start":154.659,"end":155.019,"text":"徐佳青報告"},{"start":179.171,"end":179.191,"text":"委員長"},{"start":202.77,"end":221.902,"text":"委員長像之前我也討論過就是說像孩子們來台灣念書其實這個語言方面在他們的母國是不是必須要先做一定程度的加強那我所了解的話甚至有些華語文能力測驗都是偽造的為了要來念書是偽造的這個部分這個想請教一下委員長要如何克服呢"},{"start":223.912,"end":226.674,"text":"委員剛剛所講的這些現象跟問題確實在過去幾年我們在現場教學現場有發現類似的狀況那也是為什麼我們必須要把很多的東西做一些調整跟改變那就語言的這一方面來說"},{"start":243.231,"end":243.411,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":259.773,"end":263.336,"text":"馬來西亞和台北學生之外其他國家在不同的層次上 華語是有很大落差的過去我們在華校的設置上 因為其他國家有排華的相關問題以致於有些困難 但近年來我們開始想要恢復多一點的據點"},{"start":285.353,"end":285.693,"text":"對,如果這樣子這個問題就很大"},{"start":312.295,"end":315.376,"text":"對沒有錯所以這是為什麼我們必須用這個新的模式來進行那這樣的學生我們都會跟他說沒關係你今年沒有錄取但是你明年你好好學華語等到你有一個程度你再來台灣這個部分呢我們也都是在持續加強"},{"start":329.402,"end":348.36,"text":"因為教育部在明年開始他們會成立三個華語基地分別在菲律賓在印尼以及在越南三個國家那目前這三個國家呢這個教材是由本會來授權提供因為我們現在都是用雙語教材的模式而於這些國家他們沒有大量的華語基礎"},{"start":350.182,"end":350.222,"text":"：羅美玲議員"},{"start":375.726,"end":376.987,"text":"委員會提醒我們這些點我們也會持續來關注看看哪些部分還可以加強"},{"start":404.36,"end":407.584,"text":"華語的部分確實是如同你關注的這樣,它確實是關鍵之所在。是,那委員長請教一下,剛剛你有提到這個海外的這個華語文的這個基地,它是針對說要來上這個三家市僑生專班的學生,或是...不只,那個全部外籍"},{"start":419.537,"end":419.737,"text":"會不會說這效果會比較不好"},{"start":435.329,"end":440.174,"text":"因為基地初步可能還是會先篩選一下就是讓有部分基礎的人優先進來那去強化他的華語基礎那課程結束之後依著他要進行的各種不同專班他有些可能是參加這個教育部的新南向專班"},{"start":453.426,"end":453.826,"text":"外籍生及僑生"},{"start":468.559,"end":468.96,"text":"徐佳青報告業務概況．"},{"start":488.759,"end":489.18,"text":"徐佳青報告業務概況：羅美玲"},{"start":518.963,"end":519.383,"text":"106年是今年畢業嘛對不對今年畢業"},{"start":534.417,"end":541.002,"text":"那我們所得到的數據就是說其實他進來的時候暨高端進來報到是1034人可是到了他完成三年的學業其實留下來只有64%去升暨專端嘛可是暨專端畢業的其實只有31%是今年113年今年的這個畢業人數所以我們比較105 104 103其實我們留下來這個也只有三成左右"},{"start":561.536,"end":562.196,"text":"委員這個是最後留下來跟最初的做對比"},{"start":580.406,"end":600.895,"text":"我們後來有做一個資料就是說我們看他如果真的完整的7年讀完因為他必須讀完7年他才能正式留下來工作那如果他沒有中間就離開的有絕大多數可能有學習的這個確實落差有一部分是因為他們全部7年都沒有假期所以他們想要回家的時候就變成被迫只能就離開學校了"},{"start":602.176,"end":607.2,"text":"所以沒有這個休學制度對這些學生產學來說現在這個是我們正在積極思考的因為長達7年如果這些孩子不能有一段比較完整的時間去返家的時候他最後被迫他就是休學就是退學了他們7年當中可以返家吧他們可以返家但是都是時間很短因為他們只能搭配我們最長的假期就是春節那春節就是一個禮拜到9天10天不等那對於這些海外的孩子來說他很希望"},{"start":631.317,"end":650.317,"text":"委員長您的意思就是說OK好那我們現在留下來是64%665人106年你也是說665人其實有八成是完成七年的學業是不是是這樣子的意思嗎是的是的所以那這樣子的話其實留下來的人八成的話其實也差不多四五百人左右"},{"start":650.697,"end":650.897,"text":"委員徐佳青報告業務概況．"},{"start":678.999,"end":679.199,"text":"感謝羅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":54,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時26分）謝謝主席，有請徐佳青委員長。"],["主席：委員長請。"],["徐委員長佳青：羅委員早安。"],["羅委員美玲：委員長早安。委員長，本席今天想就3+4產學專班的一些狀況跟委員長做一個探討，產學專班開辦到現在已經有十年了，可是這十年來其實負評不斷。其實我們設立這一個專班最主要是培養僑生一些專業技能，以目前臺灣人力缺乏的狀況之下，我們本來是希望他們畢業之後能夠繼續留臺，進一步成為符合我國產業界需要的人才。可是我們也發現，其實上個會期我也跟委員長討論過，其實這個留臺畢業生的效果是不佳的，首先為什麼會有這個狀況呢？我在想語言是一個最大的問題，根據3+4僑生專班的招生簡章，它對於申請學生的要求是必須要具備華語文能力測驗A1以上的標準，可是我們都知道A1其實就是入門基礎的等級，如果讓這些學生進到學校裡面去聽一些比較專業的詞彙等等，其實對他們來講是有很大的困難。","尤其3+4產學專班裡面的學生不單單只有僑生，其實我們也開放了一般的外籍生進來念書，如果他們達到這個華語文程度的話，他們也可以錄取，可是我們都知道，像很大部分僑生的祖先移居到國外可能已經好幾代，甚至上百年的歷史，他們在母國學習華語文這部分的機率也許是不高的，甚至完全是不會講的，他們進來了3+4產學專班之後，其實就是高中一年級的年齡，他們在聽的方面其實有很大的問題，所以我們發現到，像過去有一些學生也來辦公室來陳情，甚至我們也收到一些教學單位的意見，他們說因為這些孩子聽不懂中文，所以在課堂上都不知道老師在講什麼，所以會在課堂上面發呆、滑手機、聊天等等，我想這個都不是我們應該在產學專班裡面看到的狀況，所以針對語文這部分，我們要如何來克服？","再來，因為3+4規定他們一進來就要輪調實習，三個月在學校、三個月在產業端，對產業端的廠商來講，也是覺得非常的吃力，因為這孩子來實習的時候完全聽不懂他們在講什麼，所以在實習方面其實也非常的不紮實。像之前我有看到一個報導，有一位同學到長照機構去做實習，可是跟護理師還有跟阿公、阿嬤都沒有辦法溝通，所以就被退，他用「退貨」這兩個字，我覺得應該是被退回學校，說他不要這個實習生。","所以我們辦的這個3+4產學專班其實有一些很大的問題，所以我想請教委員長，之前我也討論過，像孩子們來臺灣念書，在語言方面，他們在母國時是不是必須要先做一定程度的加強？據我所了解的，甚至有些華語文能力測驗都是偽造的，為了要來念書，是偽造的，這個部分想請教一下委員長要如何克服呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員剛剛所講的這些現象跟問題，確實在過去幾年我們在教學現場有發現類似的狀況，那也是為什麼我們必須要把很多的東西做一些調整跟改變。就語言的這一方面來說，部分的國家像來自馬來西亞的學生，由於有獨中的教育、華小的教育，所以他們普遍來到臺灣讀書，他們的華語程度是高的，跟本地生幾乎沒有什麼差異；但是扣除掉所謂的馬來西亞跟泰北學生之外，其他國家因為在不同的層次上面，華語是有很大落差的。過去我們在華校的設置上面，因為其他國家有排華的相關問題，以致於有些困難，但近年來我們開始想要恢復多一點的據點，讓想要來臺灣讀書的孩子可以在自己母國的時候就加強他的華語教育，所以這個A1等級，事實上，委員說得對，他們其實來參加考試的時候，很多是背答案的，那個就是來自於補習班教他們的一些技巧，因此為什麼我們要二次面試，換一個問法，他馬上就答不出來，問他說你耳朵在哪裡，他就比眼睛，所以我們就知道……"],["羅委員美玲：如果是這樣子，這個問題就很大了，如果連五官這種最基本的……"],["徐委員長佳青：對，沒有錯，所以這是為什麼我們必須用新的模式來進行，這樣的學生我們都會跟他說沒關係，你今年沒有錄取，但是你好好學華語，明年等到你有一個程度，你再來臺灣。這個部分我們也都是在持續加強，因為教育部在明年開始會成立3個華語基地，分別在菲律賓、印尼以及越南3個國家，目前這3個國家的教材是由本會來授權提供，因為我們現在都是用雙語教材的模式，由於這些國家他們沒有大量的華語基礎，所以我們用雙語教材的教學來提升學生的學習力是有幫助的。","另外一方面，在國內的部分，我們也開始要強化國內這些華語課程的老師，他們過去只用傳統的教法來教臺灣本地生，那當然會引不起這些僑生在學習上面的能力提升，所以我們今年度開始有試辦邀請所有高中職華語教師來上我們的課程，然後用我們的雙語教材，這樣比較快速地來讓這些學生的華語程度可以學習提升，有助於他們在臺灣整體的實習以及在學校的成績。所以這個部分我們是有精進的方案正在執行當中，委員所提醒我們的這些點，我們也會持續來關注，看看哪些部分還可以加強，華語的部分確實是如同你所關注的這樣，它確實是關鍵之所在。"],["羅委員美玲：委員長，請教一下，剛才你有提到海外的華語文基地，它是針對要來上這個3+4僑生專班的學生，或是……"],["徐委員長佳青：不只，是全部，外籍生也可以。"],["羅委員美玲：外籍生都可以參加，一定要經過基地上課之後的認證嗎？是要他們認證之後才能夠過來嗎？還是想要去上再去上？如果只是讓大家想上就去上，那會不會效果比較不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：因為基地初步可能還是會先篩選一下，就是讓部分有基礎的人先優先進來，去強化他的華語基礎，課程結束之後，依著他要進行的各種不同專班，有些可能是參加教育部的新南向專班，或者是外籍生的甄選，有些可能是參加僑委會的3+4專班等等，所以這個招生基地基本上是針對所有的外籍生及僑生，通通包含。"],["羅委員美玲：請教委員長，像這些孩子進來之後，我們有沒有定期去學校了解學校的教學品質？還有學生在就學當中有沒有遇到什麼問題是需要協助的，我們有去了解嗎？這部分有沒有去了解？"],["徐委員長佳青：有，今年開始我們有定期去發放問卷……"],["羅委員美玲：過去是沒有，今年才開始嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：過去都是只有詢問老師而已，沒有直接針對學生，但是我們每一年都會把學生組織的領導人找來進行座談會，這是……"],["羅委員美玲：是今年開始，我在想既然你們這個3+4已經走了4年，一直都是畢業生留臺的效果很差，而且評價也不好，所以我在想，針對這個3+4我們應該要來……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，其實沒有很差，應該這樣講，他如果7年有完整讀完，留下來的比例都高達八、九成……"],["羅委員美玲：可是我所看到的……"],["徐委員長佳青：現在重點就是他沒有讀完，7年這個時間沒有讀完。"],["羅委員美玲：沒有讀完的到目前為止大概也只有三成左右，因為像106年……"],["徐委員長佳青：這個就是我們現在持續要了解的，在……"],["羅委員美玲：是，106年是今年畢業，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["羅委員美玲：今年畢業，而我們所得到的數據是，其實他進來的時候，技高端進來報到的是1,034人，可是到了他完成3年的學業，其實留下來只有64%去升技專端，可是技專端畢業的其實只有31%，這是今年（113年）的畢業人數，所以我們去比較105年、104年、103年，其實留下來的也只有三成左右。因為上個會期我已經跟委員長有探討過這個問題，我一直認為106年留下來的畢業人數會蠻多的，結果沒有，還是三成，所以雖然今年……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，這個是最後留下來的跟最初的做對比啦！就是7年。"],["羅委員美玲：是，當然，我們希望……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們後來有做一個資料，就是我們看他如果真的完整地把7年讀完，因為他必須讀完7年才能正式留下來工作，如果他沒有，中間就離開的，有絕大多數可能有學習的落差，有一部分是因為他們全部7年都沒有假期，所以他們想要回家的時候就變成被迫只能離開學校了。因此，沒有休學制度對這些產學專班的學生來說，現在這個是我們正在積極思考的，因為長達7年，如果這些孩子不能有一段比較完整的時間去返家的時候，他最後被迫就是退學了。"],["羅委員美玲：他們7年當中可以返家吧？可以去探親吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：他們可以返家，但都是時間很短，因為他們只能搭配我們最長的假期，就是春節，而春節就是一個禮拜到9天、10天不等，對於這些海外的孩子來說，他很希望……"],["羅委員美玲：所以委員長的意思是，我們106年留下來的是64%、665人，665人其實有八成是完成7年的學業，是不是？是這樣子的意思嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：是的、是的。"],["羅委員美玲：這樣子的話，留下來的人有八成，其實也差不多四、五百人左右……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["羅委員美玲：可是四、五百人其實也是腰斬，我們希望更多的人留下來，1,034人裡面只有四、五百人留下來，其實也就只有一半、50%，這是我們現在所看到的，雖然你們說有八成，可是那八成是從升上技專端……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我跟你的目標是一樣的，我很期待留臺率能夠更高。"],["羅委員美玲：是，所以我們在想，可能就要像委員長所講的，今年我們開始去了解……"],["徐委員長佳青：教學現場我們會加強去做督導。"],["羅委員美玲：是，這個部分可能要來做加強。OK，以上，謝謝委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：感謝羅委員。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋代）：謝謝羅委員、謝謝委員長。","有請定宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":232,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","洪申翰","馬文君","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","林憶君","陳永康","黃仁","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","賴惠員"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00003"}}},{"id":"156242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T09:24:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T09:33:07+08:00","duration":514,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.262218750000001,"end":7.185968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.574093750000001,"end":8.654093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.26096875,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.254718750000002,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.33596875,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.60471875,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.32346875,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.49971875,"end":81.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.53909375,"end":108.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.77346875,"end":126.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.21784375000001,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.54659375,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.57909375,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.76034375,"end":143.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.87346875,"end":145.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.33721875,"end":154.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.57221875000002,"end":170.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.02096875,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.70846875,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.96034375000002,"end":183.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.20471875,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.24659375000002,"end":188.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.39721875,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.96221875,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.27846875,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.98721875,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.53846875000002,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.36534375000002,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.74471875,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.19096875000002,"end":223.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.61596875,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.82659375,"end":229.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.76721875,"end":232.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.83409375000002,"end":235.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.71971875000003,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.77846875,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.93409375000002,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.80721875,"end":245.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.72659375,"end":247.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.46471875,"end":249.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.21534375000002,"end":251.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.00409375,"end":253.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.84346875000003,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.02471875000003,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.36971875,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.60534375000003,"end":270.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.95909375,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.57471875000005,"end":285.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.65284375000005,"end":286.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.37846875,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.81096875000003,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.45159375000003,"end":308.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.64096875,"end":309.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.10471875,"end":312.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.07909375,"end":341.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.39096875,"end":371.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.75346875,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.03534375000004,"end":378.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.99284375,"end":381.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.77721875000003,"end":386.41784375000003},{"speaker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1867年的羅發號事件導致了美方跟狼牙18社的南甲之盟這個範疇你們怎麼去詮釋?不義嗎?牡丹社事件之後1874年清朝就為了這個事件以後開始開山撫帆"},{"start":194.794,"end":223.033,"text":"進入了原住民的區域之後建立了防疫、土牛溝等隔離的設施。這些保護的設施也是隔離跟壓迫。你要怎麼去詮釋它呢?不義嘛!誰的不義?日治時期的壓迫更是有系統性的。我們都知道的1914年的泰魯閣事件、30年的霧社事件。這不是日本政府對我們的壓迫嗎?"},{"start":225.68,"end":253.465,"text":"那莫那魯道集體帶族人自殺的地方你們要怎麼去詮釋?不義嗎?總統府的前身台灣總督府這是日治時期最高的權力他有沒有壓迫我們?那你要不要叫總統府不義遺址?還是你要學韓國把全台灣的不義遺址都除掉?你們想一想"},{"start":256.092,"end":281.949,"text":"所以史官應該是家法本席已經提到了很多次在跟您質詢的時候不義遺址這件事還是請你記得你的承諾所以這個不義遺址的名稱適合嗎目前我們適合怎麼討論這個問題我們是不是在人權場域中學習這整個事件是不是一個人權的概念那人權應該怎麼被討論怎麼被詮釋我還是那句話誰的不義"},{"start":286.693,"end":309.31,"text":"好,所以我們是不是可以涵蓋更多一點還有一個很實際的問題現在你們目前所謂的不義遺址有一些見物不見了有一些是私人財產這個產權被關以不義如果今天是你家那我不知道部長你怎麼回應我你覺得如果你家被關為不義你怎麼看待"},{"start":311.321,"end":312.402,"text":"這個部分可不可以請您先回應?"},{"start":341.124,"end":341.169,"text":"擬具鄭天財"},{"start":343.282,"end":370.92,"text":"謝謝部長所以也請記得還是要記得您剛才給紅委員的承諾法定重來這件事是給文化部一個展現你專業的機會所以我這邊呼籲我希望能夠全面正義而不是選擇性的正義重新定義這個名詞面對歷史部長我們不能片面化也不能選擇性的只記住某些時期忽略其他時期的痛苦"},{"start":371.821,"end":386.112,"text":"今天這個條例我希望它不會讓未來更分裂不要讓各個族群會感到不同形式的壓迫史觀應該是家法發生過的我們就記住它"},{"start":387.901,"end":413.129,"text":"從這裡面去學習。這個不義遺址我希望不要太不容易被紀念因為紀念這些歷史創傷然後有的時候你會讓我們覺得我已經被加害的人還要接受加害者的視角究竟這是在還原歷史掩蓋歷史還是選擇性操作還是本席之前講的另一種威權"},{"start":414.805,"end":418.191,"text":"最後還是回到正題誰是不正義的一方?部長您要針對我剛才的部分做回應嗎?"},{"start":429.536,"end":448.271,"text":"我剛才有強調加害者跟被害者,然後您剛才提到原住民的事情,每一件事情都被拍成電影過,比如說斯卡羅,還有斯卡羅這個……已經拍過的我想大家都有很多討論跟詮釋,那如同剛才……"},{"start":451.934,"end":465.822,"text":"本委員所講的。那我們希望記住您的未來的推動能夠在全世上考慮到所有的視角。最後,今、はぎや、ミサ・ウィリアン、ドゥ・ユン・ジュ・ミン、ハ・ディニアイ、ア・ラ・フィン、ア・ファス、サナイ・イティニ、"},{"start":476.653,"end":503.306,"text":"改提拉安等19人保存條例草案案。netesa Wili 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就知道113年缺工人數到了6.6萬人，同期失業人口也到41萬人了，依數據來看的話，這兩個數據對起來有點特別，就是待業人數大於需求人數，一直在講缺工，可是事實上需求蠻高的，差了六點二倍。特別是缺工最嚴重的事實上是製造業跟批發零售業，這兩個產業的特性依技術背景不同，剛剛你也講中階的人事實上就是比較缺，可是問題是需求的人、要工作的人也蠻多的，所以勞動部就業服務的作法相較於你們現在自己有銀髮人才資源中心主動出擊的作法，看起來事實上比較被動，所以本席質疑勞動部使用的求職手段到底有沒有接地氣，你們了解各年齡層獲得求職資訊的習慣嗎？為什麼這樣問？因為我從教育部的研究可以看出來，62.7%的16歲到18歲學生找工作的主要管道還是親友介紹，16.9%透過人力銀行，不會去用勞動部的「台灣就業通」，所以想問一下你們知道這些人求職的一些習慣嗎？資訊怎麼來？有沒有做過研究？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長答復好嗎？"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，青年求職確實有他的習性，第一個，網路的求才資訊其實他們在運用上確實會比較偏多，很多透過人力銀行，但是我們在台灣就業通的服務其實有人力銀行沒有辦法做到的部分，因為我們是結合線下，像職業訓練、創業輔導及一些相關的實體諮詢，這個部分其實是我們目前在就業通以外有銜接外部的資源。另外就是青年有時候在尋職的過程當中，他可能需要一些深度的諮詢，所以我們現在有成立青年職涯發展中心來協助。"],["林委員月琴：署長，可是這樣效果好嗎？我們就來看這一頁，因為失業者公共就業服務的使用率平均占失業者40.53%，所以六成的人使用其他管道去求職，因為你剛剛說你們有其他連結，可是還是效果不彰，而且求職成功率更低，只有25.33%，所以感覺上從數據來看的話，事實上求職者是不愛用的。政府的公共就業服務資源效果不好，民眾如果不愛用的話，想問，就持續這樣下滑的趨勢來看，有沒有什麼辦法可以突破瓶頸？也就是說，我剛剛有提過，你們的銀髮人才就業服務在新北市雙和地區主動找職缺的作法，而且勞動部是不是可以主動下鄉到全國368個鄉鎮招商徵才？要嘛就是你要握住人力找廠商，要嘛就是握住廠商找人力，然後再媒合起來完成聘僱關係，化被動為主動，我不知道勞動部部長對這個看法是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，委員這個建議非常好，我想我們需要更綿密的去到基層，然後直接去掌握雙邊的狀況。"],["林委員月琴：因為你們已經有一個成功經驗，為什麼不是去擴散，只是一個被動的平臺等著人家上門來找？"],["何部長佩珊：是，這是非常好的model，我們可以把它擴大。"],["林委員月琴：是不是把業主找出來，把他們的需求找出來之後再去做搭配，我覺得這會是比較好的。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["林委員月琴：針對缺工，有沒有去想過非勞動的人力是不是主要的對象？因為追根究柢，本來少子、高齡化這樣的趨勢下，缺工就是一種常態，整個就業服務，你應該更積極，所以我才說是不是要去盤點有些閒置的勞動力，比如說就學，可能有一些16歲到18歲想要工作的，他們到底要去哪裡找？還有料理家務的，因為我們婦女的勞參率也是滿低的，還有高齡、身心障礙者、想工作但沒有工作的人，廣義來講，都是一些閒置的人力，所以這些人力都應該是你要去積極抓住的，否則的話，現在閒置人力已經達到整體勞動人口的48%，如果把這些人力引進，不是會有比較好的效用嗎？與其你一直在講原來的就業人口，這些人的人數事實上就已經是沒辦法撐住我們現在的需求。所以，有關閒置人力，我現在用兩個觀念來談，第一個，現在有一些轉換雇主許可的移工，平均一個月，我從勞動部要到的數據是新增4,500人，轉換期間受臨時安置的大概是30人，未接受政府安置的人就由雇主或者是仲介代替雇主安置，安置期間是不可以工作的。移工只要一天未能順利轉出的話，不管是政府還是雇主，都要花成本，結果這個人空在那邊，卻沒有善加運用這些勞動力，所以想問一下部長，當下有多少移工正等待新雇主的承接？有多少？因為我們現在得到的數據只有9月份的。"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長回答。"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，現在對於待轉換的移工，我們的安置中心大概每一年……"],["林委員月琴：我們要現在。"],["蔡署長孟良：對，每年我們的安置人數大概都將近兩、三千人。"],["林委員月琴：所以這兩、三千人是不是一個很好的人力？你們讓他們儘快的……"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["林委員月琴：再問，等待的時間有多久？安置的時間有多久？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為大部分案件比較單純，就只是勞資爭議，一旦勞資爭議，地方政府確認之後，聘僱關係終止，我們就馬上協助轉換。那有些案件……"],["林委員月琴：這個「馬上」的時間有沒有等待一年或半年都還沒有辦法出去？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，一般半年、一年是屬於刑事案件，有時候是和人身傷害相關的一些刑事訴訟，因為必須要等到司法警察機關的確認，這個會稍微久一點，不過這個我們也會跟司法機關充分溝通。"],["林委員月琴：可是這就是社會成本，因為安置是你們要付費的。所以勞動部不應該……"],["何部長佩珊：委員這個建議非常好，但這個牽涉到修法，就是提前解約的要讓他轉雇主、轉換行業，現在不允許，因為我們的就業服務法……"],["林委員月琴：所以我們真的要去考慮一下。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["林委員月琴：否則的話一直在講缺工，可是我們就看到一些人力事實上是待用的狀態，而且你又要付出成本，因為安置期間你們是要付費的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["林委員月琴：製造業跟社福業都在缺工，其中有權聘僱移工的產業不在少數，這群接受安置在等待的都可能是可以考慮的對象。所以，可不可以優先境內承接，再境外招募，利用境內即戰力來紓解我們對移工的緊急需求？所以請勞動部一個月內研議並提出說明。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，我們也一直鼓勵製造業承接這種內部有意願要轉換的。"],["林委員月琴：部長，請一個月……"],["何部長佩珊：可是有的雇主會覺得這樣的人不好用，因為一般來講，移工會轉出的通常都是在原單位可能就是……也有這種問題啦！"],["林委員月琴：好，麻煩你一個月內交報告。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["林委員月琴：還有，不好意思，請再給我一點時間。","現在我們的身心障礙者大概也是所謂就業服務的孤兒，為什麼這樣講？15歲以上身心障礙者有工作的大概是25.4萬人，比例大概是21%，其中接受政府就業推介成功的大概2萬8,000人，大概只占25萬就業人數的12%，所以想問一下部長，因為經過職業推介就業的2萬8,000人，大多數還是去公務體系工作，是嗎？因為我現在收到的數據是這樣。就是你們自己處理、轉介，結果還是進入到比較以公家體系為優先，而且這只有占到12%，還有很多事實上也是待開發的人力。"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長回答。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，現在身心障礙，我們依照他的情況大概有三種服務模式，有庇護性就業、支持性就業跟一般性就業。到公部門的確實有一部分，但其實到私部門的還是很多，因為很多私部門必須要符合定額進用，所以他會尋求我們的協助推介，這部分我們也在努力。"],["林委員月琴：可是原來工作的25萬身心障礙者看起來還是靠自己去找工作，還是一樣回來你們的就業服務，事實上缺工，可是你又沒有辦法幫雇主，我有要工作的需求，可是你們也是沒辦法滿足我。我們的身心障礙者工作促進政策已經推動幾十年，如果只有這樣的成效，真的是滿弱的。最後就是希望你們盤點閒置的勞動人力，主動下鄉，剛剛部長已經有承諾，你們可不可以發掘職缺，用你們在中永和辦的那樣子的方式，銀髮人才資源中心這樣的作法來促進雙方媒合，還有把閒置人力能夠都帶回來充分就業。再麻煩部長。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員發言，謝謝部長。下一位請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156240","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adecfd0392d06dc8e594d3d0b4a24d41de374469bb67173b5975e1aacc5385281515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:10:59 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這不是上網公開我已經發函給你們要了你們不給我欸這個研修委員會在討論法條是有什麼國家機密嗎?為什麼不能提供?"},{"start":397.887,"end":406.331,"text":"我們也都提供了是蛤什麼時候提供的這個研修會的紀錄有給我不是你怎麼講話在立法院裡面反反覆覆的啊沒有沒有跟委員報告因為是另外一個所以我就問你嘛為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開"},{"start":420.52,"end":425.584,"text":"我問一個最根本價值的問題嘛不管是事後彙整成策事後為什麼要彙整成策就讓所有關心這個法律的人知道這個法條形成的過程是什麼嘛這件事情有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":449.52,"end":452.221,"text":"回去會去檢討、研議請你們公開好不好立法院裡面所有的公聽會委員會的審查、院會全部都公開啊怎麼司法院自己在搞黑箱這樣對嗎不至於很簡單啊就把東西所有公開我為什麼會問這件事情"},{"start":473.496,"end":502.331,"text":"一個法案怎麼形成的特別是司法院提出來的我一定會去拜讀我特別發言人去跟你們要的這個研究計畫我不是要來玩的是要來看的我要看老師們當初提什麼條文跟你們提出來的條文對照我為什麼會要研討會的記錄因為中間有很大的落差那這個落差是怎麼發生的理由是什麼"},{"start":503.444,"end":516.308,"text":"完全找不到啊來我進一步請教你你們今天所提出來的這個稅務行政案件審理法除了租稅債務以外有沒有包括租稅處罰案件審理範圍啦有嘛那如果有包括租稅處罰的話當事人的協力義務在租稅處罰的要件證明有協力義務嗎"},{"start":530.576,"end":554.803,"text":"我們的那個協力義務包括當事人然後沒有特別去區分那個處罰跟那個對所以答案是有沒有包括租稅處罰包括也許是特別強調稅審法跟民事訴訟法跟行政訴訟法不一樣的地方你如果齁因為我看這個法條當事人的協力義務包括在租稅債務我沒意見啦包括在租稅處罰"},{"start":556.727,"end":579.677,"text":"這可能就必須要深入討論但你們在法條完全沒區分我為什麼說在租稅處罰需要深入討論來 我們來看一下這個是最高行政法院的見解針對租稅債務跟租稅處罰兩者之間本質上面的不同最高行政法院在歷來的判決裡面寫得蠻清楚的 來看一下"},{"start":581.823,"end":609.625,"text":"最高行政法院的判決認為財閥相對人對於租稅處罰這件事情沒有鮮豔的協力義務這個立場司法院是不是要透過這一次審理法的修正予以辯更因為處罰那一部分並沒有確如委員所講並沒有做特別的區分所以你們是不是要藉由這一次修法去辯更最高行政法院的見解立法理由是沒有特別去講出來的區分"},{"start":611.687,"end":631.619,"text":"那你們提這個法案明定了當事人的協力義務而且穿透力很強喔那個穿透力啊到了無罪推定原則在稅法的領域裡面通常叫做移責無罪的原則都排除掉了欸都排除掉了欸"},{"start":632.694,"end":661.67,"text":"那這租稅處罰到底有沒有適用我為什麼做這個完整的對照表給司法院看因為我就很狐疑啊你們今天提這個審理法是要排除要變更最高行政法院判決的見解嗎租稅處罰沒有協力義務變成有協力義務租稅處罰本來有無罪推定原則的適用你們這個法下去就變成沒有無罪推定原則的適用"},{"start":663.732,"end":679.381,"text":"你們真的有這個修法的意圖嗎?沒有準用啦我拜託法律人在上面講話不要胡說啦哪一條寫準用適用就適用嘛還準用"},{"start":691.104,"end":710.772,"text":"跟委員抱歉那那是不是啊我現在跟司法院講喔這件事情啊知識體大知識體大在租稅處罰的部分是不是要藉由這個法律的修正變更向來最高行政法院的見解這個對於納稅權利人啊納稅義務人啊影響非常的深遠影響非常的深遠因為就你們"},{"start":718.496,"end":735.168,"text":"本來在上面的第14條啊第14條的這個條文其實我從當初的研究計畫裡面我沒有看到這個條文啊那顯然是在後面你們司法院研修的過程當中把條文加上去嘛"},{"start":736.007,"end":763.376,"text":"要不然送來立法院的版本不會蹦出來這個條文嗎那我就很好奇啊當初你們花錢請聖子榮教授做研究計畫沒有這個條文現在送到立法院裡面來的有這個條文這個條文從何而來基於什麼樣的立法考慮有沒有參酌最高行政法院判決的意旨最後把這個條文送到立法院來了"},{"start":766.028,"end":775.174,"text":"這些立法的資料我現在完全找不到請你們會後提供最後我要講一個很關鍵的問題什麼關鍵的問題你們要涉稅務審查官結果稅務審查官從稅政機關找人這個事情我可以直接跟你講民間團體有很大的疑慮但更重要的重點還不是這個"},{"start":793.411,"end":805.131,"text":"你們這個稅務審查官是有關等的吧?建任7等到9等嗎?有關等的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎?來請一下選區部的"},{"start":807.338,"end":827.474,"text":"有關的人可以用聘用條例聘用嗎?請簡單回答依照聘用條例第7條的規定有關於聘用人員他是不得充任就是列有職稱檢認兼任職稱的職務也不得兼任列有職等的職務來再請司法院的全序部的說不可以啊你們今天提來的草案這樣搞"},{"start":830.006,"end":834.188,"text":"是要創設黑官嗎?對啊但是聘用人員條例可以這樣繞過去喔?是要搞黑官嗎?全區部都反對了現在司法院立場如何?"},{"start":849.69,"end":870.907,"text":"我們當然是希望說我們會跟全序部溝通看看不是嘛以後所有的公務機關是只有司法院可以我用偏用人員條例搞有官等的人是只有司法院可以還是全中華民國各個行政機關大家都公平都可以這樣搞來許全序部表示意見對這個條文贊成還是反對"},{"start":874.622,"end":898.004,"text":"基本上就是聘用條例裡面的規定,如果你符合聘用條例裡面的規定,你就可以用聘用條例去禁用人員。是,這個我了解,這不是我的問題。基本上就是說,如果有需要他要去聘用這樣子類似紀審官的,這樣職稱的人,原則上不宜用紀審官,因為他是列有職稱官人之等的部分。列有官等就不能這樣搞嘛。"},{"start":898.784,"end":904.429,"text":"你書面就寫得這麼清楚了嘛上來講得含含糊糊的怕得罪司法院喔司法院喔再回去想一下全中華民國是只有你們司法院有特權還是各個行政機關都可以這樣幹謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時11分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院副秘書長，然後銓敘部的代表。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長、銓敘部代表。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["主席：請廖專門委員。"],["黃委員國昌：副秘書長，今天審查有關於稅務行政事件審理法草案，這個會牽涉到納稅者權益的保護，我相信司法院非常地清楚，行政法院在處理稅務案件的時候，人民的勝訴率是非常非常低。2017年我們在財政委員會的時候制定納稅者權利保護法，在上路了以後，一路觀察，看起來的表現似乎是跟我們當初期待的差距還滿遠的，原因可能非常地多，我們等一下再細細地討論。當人民就稅務案件提起行政訴訟，勝訴率這麼低的時候，到底行政訴訟是不是有辦法發揮公平救濟這樣子的目的，會遭受到很多人的質疑。今天這個法案看起來是滿重要的，我看你們之前有花了錢，請了學者做了一個研究計畫，研究計畫不是通常都要上網嗎？你們為什麼沒公開？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，應該會有上網，我們回去……"],["黃委員國昌：你們去確認一下好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是、是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我只要上網查得到的東西，我基本上都不會特別請你們提供，但我就是上網查不到嘛。因為所有政府機關委託學者做的研究報告，納稅人花了錢，這個東西就要公開，那這個東西公開很重要啊！因為你如果認真要處理稅務行政訴訟事件審理法的話，就要看一路以來，這個法條到底是怎麼演變的，譬如說，教授當初怎麼建議的，司法院是怎麼審議的，最後送到立法院的條文長什麼樣子，在什麼階段、基於什麼樣子的理由做了變更，這些紀錄都很重要，副秘書長贊不贊成？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個我完全贊成，我們回去瞭解，因為我們其他的都會……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你完全贊成。我們再繼續看，你們針對這個審理法的草案開了幾次公聽會？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：好像有辦過一次公聽會吧！"],["黃委員國昌：只有辦一次嘛！8月12號的時候才辦嘛！8月12號的時候，除了財政部，就是負責在課稅的，代表國家高權行為在課稅的公務員以外，民間的人士請了幾位？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我上面秀給你看了啦！請了5位啦！與會七十幾個人，政府機關代表68個人，全部都是在代表國家行使高權行為的，民間代表只有5位，突然排審了這個案子以後，我接到很多陳情，覺得司法院怎麼辦一個公聽會辦得偷偷摸摸的，然後民間的代表只有5位，有很多人對我們課稅以及行政訴訟的這件事情非常地關心，而且強烈地不滿、強烈地不滿，認為我們的司法院開一個公聽會是在走過水的，民間人士只請來5個，大家連參與的機會都沒有，甚至啊！看一下，連政府機關的代表都覺得這個公聽會召開的時間非常緊迫，來看一下，我們財政部賦稅署的代表說：「主席，不好意思，今天公聽會召集得比較急迫」。這不是我說的，連政府機關的代表都這樣講啊！這個公聽會逐字稿可不可以上網？這個逐字稿還是我去跟你們要的耶！能不能上網？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：以往我們的……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是公聽會嗎？還是私聽會？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們回去會研議，因為我們公聽會有滿多的會，是不是都逐字稿上網，因為有一些與會者他們並不希望陳述的意見被……"],["黃委員國昌：這不叫公聽會嗎？公聽會都不公開，還叫公聽會喔？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們回去檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：這個會有困難嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：司法院要搞黑箱嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然不是，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：當然不是？有不可以公開上網的理由嗎？","再往下看，為了這個審理事件成立一個委員會，我找了半天，我找不到你們研修會討論的紀錄，我發函跟你們要，結果司法院回給我的文字是這個樣子，我來唸給副秘書長聽：關於此部分的資料，本院向來不提供，因為會議討論過程結論是本院研修參考，涉及決策過程的內部意見溝通或思辨資訊，所以不便提供。這個是理由嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我們研修的這個紀錄，以往的慣例是這樣，如果我們要……"],["黃委員國昌：你確定嗎？你確定嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是、是，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：司法院，以前我們在做民事訴訟法研修的時候，民事訴訟法研修會的紀錄出了幾本啦！副秘書長，你知不知道？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我也曾經是研修委員，所以那個後來有……"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開，這個不行？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是上網公開，這部分好像民事訴訟的研修會……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！這不是上網公開，我已經發函跟你們要了，你們不給我耶！這個研修委員會在討論法條是有什麼國家機密嗎？為什麼不能提供？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：後來我們也都提供了，是。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候提供的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：昨天也有提供。"],["黃委員國昌：這個研修會的紀錄有給我？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，你怎麼在立法院裡面講話反反覆覆的啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有、沒有，跟委員報告，因為是另外一個會。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問你嘛！為什麼民事訴訟法的可以公開，這個不能公開？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，民事訴訟法的公開是後來彙整成冊，也不是主動去提供給所有的社會各界，就我所知道的。"],["黃委員國昌：我就問一個最根本價值的問題嘛！不管是事後彙整成冊，事後為什麼要彙整成冊？就是讓所有關心這個法律的人知道法條形成的過程是什麼嘛！這件事情有這麼困難嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們回去會檢討、研議。"],["黃委員國昌：請你們公開好不好？立法院裡面所有的公聽會、委員會的審查、院會全部都公開啊！怎麼司法院自己在搞黑箱，這樣對嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，應該也不至於，因為後來彙整冊……"],["黃委員國昌：不至於？很簡單啦！就把所有東西公開，我為什麼會問這件事情？一個法案怎麼形成的，特別是司法院提出來的，我一定會去拜讀，我特別發函去跟你們要的這個研究計畫，我不是要來玩的，是要來看的，我要看老師們當初提什麼條文，跟你們提出來的條文對照，我為什麼會要研討會的紀錄？因為中間有很大的落差，這個落差是怎麼發生的，理由是什麼，完全找不到啊！我進一步請教你，你們今天所提出來的稅務行政事件審理法，除了租稅債務以外，有沒有包括租稅處罰？案件審理範圍啦！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有、有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛！如果有包括租稅處罰的話，當事人對租稅處罰的要件證明有協力義務嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們的協力義務包括當事人，沒有特別去區分處罰跟那個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以答案是有沒有包括租稅處罰？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：會包括，也許是特別強調稅審法跟民事訴訟法，跟行政訴訟法不一樣的地方。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我看這個法條，當事人的協力義務，包括在租稅債務，我沒意見啦，包括在租稅處罰，這可能就必須要深入討論，但你們在法條上完全沒區分，我為什麼說在租稅處罰需要深入討論？我們來看一下，這是最高行政法院的見解，針對租稅債務跟租稅處罰，兩者之間有本質上的不同，最高行政法院在歷來的判決裡面寫得滿清楚的，來看一下，最高行政法院的判決認為裁罰相對人對於租稅處罰這件事情並沒有先驗的協力義務，這個立場，司法院是不是要透過這一次審理法的修正予以變更？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為處罰那一部分確如委員所講，並沒有做特別的區分……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們是不是要藉由這一次修法去變更最高行政法院的見解？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：立法理由是沒有特別去講說要變更啦……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！你們提這個法案，明定了當事人的協力義務，而且穿透力很強喔！那個穿透力到了無罪推定原則，在稅法的領域裡面通常叫做疑則無罪的原則，都排除掉了耶，那在租稅處罰到底有沒有適用？我為什麼做這個完整的對照表給司法院看？因為我就很狐疑啊，你們今天提這個審理法是要排除、要變更最高行政法院判決的見解嗎？租稅處罰沒有協力義務變成有協力義務，租稅處罰本來有無罪推定原則的適用，你們這個法下去，就變成沒有無罪推定原則的適用……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：你們真的有這個修法的意圖嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：立法理由沒有這樣子講，要用也是準用嘛對不對？準用，當然如果說……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有準用啦！拜託，法律人在上面講話不要胡謅啦！哪一條寫準用？"],["程廳長怡怡：適用。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：適用。"],["黃委員國昌：適用就適用嘛！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是、是。"],["黃委員國昌：還準用？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為我可能記錯了，跟委員抱歉，那適用……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，我現在要跟司法院講，這件事情茲事體大，在租稅處罰的部分，是不是要藉由這個法律的修正變更向來最高行政法院的見解？這個對於納稅權利人、納稅義務人影響非常的深遠，因為就你們本來這上面的第十四條，第十四條的這個條文，其實我從當初的研究計畫裡面沒有看到這個條文，顯然是在後面你們司法院研修的過程當中把條文加上去嘛，要不然送來立法院的版本不會蹦出來這個條文嘛。那我就很好奇啊，當初你們花錢請盛子龍教授做的研究計畫沒有這個條文，現在送到立法院裡面來的提案有這個條文，這個條文從何而來？基於什麼樣的立法考慮？有沒有參酌最高行政法院判決的意旨？最後把這個條文送到立法院來了，但這些立法的資料我現在完全找不到，請你們會後提供。","最後，我要講一個很關鍵的問題，什麼關鍵的問題？你們要設稅務審查官，結果稅務審查官是從稅捐稽徵機關去找人，這個事情我可以直接跟你講，民間團體有很大的疑慮，但更重要的重點還不是這個，你們這個稅務審查官是有官等的嘛，薦任七等到九等，有官等的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎？","請一下銓敘部的代表，有官等的人可以用聘用人員條例聘用嗎？"],["主席：請簡單回答。"],["廖專門委員康如：依照聘用條例第七條的規定，聘用人員是不得充任列有簡任、薦任職稱的職務，也不得兼任列有職等的職務。"],["黃委員國昌：再請教司法院，銓敘部說不可以，你們今天提來的草案這樣搞，是要創設黑官嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，跟委員報告，這是參考技審官的，這是參考智慧財產案件審理法技審官的規定……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，但是聘用人員條例可以這樣繞過去喔？是要搞黑官嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，當然不是。"],["黃委員國昌：銓敘部都反對了，現在司法院的立場如何？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們當然是希望說，我們會跟銓敘部溝通，看看這個怎麼樣……"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為我們類似……"],["黃委員國昌：以後所有的公務機關，是只有司法院可以用聘用人員條例搞有官等的人，是只有司法院可以，還是全中華民國各個行政機關，大家都公平可以這樣搞？請銓敘部表示意見，對這個條文贊成還是反對？"],["廖專門委員康如：基本上以聘用條例的規定來說，如果符合聘用條例的規定，就可以用聘用條例去進用人員，那……"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個我了解，這不是我的問題。"],["廖專門委員康如：基本上就是說，如果有需要去聘用類似技審官這樣職稱的人，原則上不宜用技審官，因為他是列有職稱官等職等的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：列有官等就不能這樣搞嘛！"],["廖專門委員康如：所以原則上如果他有需要……"],["黃委員國昌：你書面就寫得這麼清楚了嘛，上來講得含含糊糊的，怕得罪司法院喔？","司法院，再回去想一下，全中華民國是只有你們司法院有特權，還是各個行政機關都可以這樣幹？謝謝。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝黃副秘書長。","針對剛剛的詢答內容，主席這邊先作個宣告：因為關於到公聽會的部分，的確我們各方的意見需要更進一步的參酌，請司法院思考一下。在這裡也提醒我們委員會的委員，因為根據憲法第五十七條的規定是「行政院依左列規定，對立法院負責」，其中對行政院長跟行政院各部會首長，我們是質詢；另外根據憲法第七十一條規定「立法院開會時，關係院院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見。」所以待會對於行政院的部分，我們是屬於質詢，至於司法院的部分則是陳述意見，在這裡一併敘明。","接下來有請羅委員智強發言。"],["謝委員龍介：客氣一點啊！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},{"id":"156239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adeb6b061e4b5dc1119325639a1896b059d74469bb67173b59720bd5877b075db005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:14:06 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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T09:14:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T09:24:21+08:00","duration":615,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.73409375,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.349718750000001,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.374718750000003,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":19.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.28534375,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.85909375,"end":20.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.37096875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":64.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.22346875000001,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.71284375,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.03346875,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.21659375,"end":81.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.41471875,"end":86.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.17784375000001,"end":101.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.19471875,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.93909375000001,"end":111.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.76034375,"end":119.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.14721875000001,"end":123.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.35346875,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.56846875000001,"end":124.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.77096875000001,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.80471875,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.03659375000001,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.33909375000002,"end":134.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.11096875,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.03909375,"end":137.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.35971875,"end":137.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.52846875,"end":145.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.12284375000002,"end":141.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.01221875000002,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.34096875,"end":150.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.03159375,"end":171.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.34346875,"end":160.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.39409375,"end":160.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.27096875,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.52784375000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.67909375000002,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.03284375,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.87221875,"end":185.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.60971875,"end":196.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.87534375,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.48659375000003,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.72596875000002,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.02409375000002,"end":206.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.17159375,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.74471875,"end":216.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.06096875,"end":214.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.32221875000002,"end":224.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.64971875,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.03784375,"end":226.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.66221875000002,"end":226.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.69596875000002,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.59846875000002,"end":246.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.59596875000003,"end":247.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.25784375,"end":254.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.72534375,"end":256.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.95284375,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.52221875000004,"end":259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.39534375,"end":267.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.53346875,"end":277.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.55284375,"end":281.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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華民國的一個"},{"start":225.714,"end":225.914,"text":"議員范雲等"},{"start":249.295,"end":277.278,"text":"台灣首座慰安婦博物館阿嬤家2016年成立當時這三位阿嬤已經是都已經在天堂了那那個時候講是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式的向南韓道歉同意賠償但對於台灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意到現在八年又過去了再來"},{"start":278.598,"end":281.5,"text":"一輩子等不到道歉最後一位未安婦2023年92歲離開了。"},{"start":285.885,"end":312.317,"text":"二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉賠償其實只是其次我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生二次世界大戰也好日據時代也好這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤"},{"start":313.718,"end":331.885,"text":"而慰安婦真的是整個大事件底下最難過而且令人無法忍受的事情所以阿嬤家和平女性人權館2016年成立到現在8年的時間也都有相關的教育如果以部長這邊來看"},{"start":333.735,"end":345.563,"text":"以保障人權、守護民主價值不再重蹈覆轍認不認為應該也要珍視這時候的歷史?是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論?"},{"start":346.957,"end":371.605,"text":"我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的這個是指的是威權時代統治的一個一定的範圍。您剛提到了嘛。精神延續嘛。所以我沒有否決精神啊。轉型正義大家都知道啊。但是法定重來啊。所以我們現在是討論個別條文啊。那我現在要請教的是在民國38年以前你剛也說了34年到38年有二二八事件。34年以前還有很多的"},{"start":372.305,"end":400.069,"text":"產無人道不遵守人權的事件那為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限民國38年以後呢?民國38年以前不算嗎?這個歷史就沒了嗎?沒有人權被破壞嗎?那既然這樣的話我們是不是應該更開闊的心胸民國開始到現在113年我國只要有任何不義的地方任何威權的地方任何被人權破壞的地方我們是不是都應該要保存?"},{"start":401.966,"end":409.982,"text":"非常好,謝謝部長。所以部長,我們是不是在討論的時候在民國38,就不要設限,就是從中華民國紀委來113年,我們共同推動,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":413.237,"end":437.534,"text":"我剛剛特別強調我們今天審查的條例是有一個時間的範圍跟事件但是您剛剛講的慰安婦您剛剛講的慰安婦也好時間的條件是可以修改嘛這是我們在逐條逐條審查嘛那您剛剛也提到了啊38年以前也有很多人權也有很多不義啊我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分喔我現在講到38年以前的這些不義包括慰安婦"},{"start":438.976,"end":463.941,"text":"未安婦的事件難道不用關心嗎?當時聽說據聞台灣可能有超過據統計有8萬人有10萬人甚至有20萬人的未安婦到現在0未安婦已經都0了但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎?這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有事情發生嗎?如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍?"},{"start":465.103,"end":486.332,"text":"人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情,慰安婦就其中之一。那既然如此的話,我們不是應該要正視這段歷史來去告訴後代子孫不要輕易發起戰爭,戰爭很殘忍。如果說真的有戰爭發生的話,可能全部的人都有可能牽連進去,那其中慰安婦也會發生。"},{"start":487.554,"end":503.794,"text":"部長,您是文化人,您怎麼看衛安夫的事情,包括當年日本人統治台灣的南洋軍夫的事情永遠不會被遺忘,而且不知道你有沒有注意到,你是不是更應該要去保存讓台灣這塊土地上2300萬人也都記得這段歷史?"},{"start":507.698,"end":535.493,"text":"最近的公共電視所播的那個聽凱勇就是又回到日本人統治台灣日本人如何屠殺那個戰俘的故事這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情很好這永遠不會忘記而且就像納稅統治的時期大家重複地用電影文學一再地演出這些東西就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情加害者跟被害者"},{"start":536.732,"end":539.214,"text":" «不義遺址保存條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":560.972,"end":576.882,"text":"歷史再強調一次啦我相信你也認同觀今一見古無古不成今我們現在有富裕的台灣社會我們有中華民國113年都是過去所有人累積下來所以過去的每一段歷史我們都要記得我們不能"},{"start":577.682,"end":596.027,"text":"我們可以原諒但不能遺忘而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的所以本席在這個條例裡面也會推動相關的如同剛剛跟部長講的我們也會推動相關的一個修正動議希望部長能夠大力的支持在逐條審查的時候我相信稍微"},{"start":596.847,"end":606.454,"text":"以女性運動那麼的權威的一個召委應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對我們共同為慰安婦阿嬤們來以為他們在天之靈所推動推動。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":80,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時14分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請李部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。"],["李部長遠：洪委員你好。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛特別聆聽你報告草案內容跟立法目的，其中講到空間活化跟歷史事件的記憶闡述，有助於促進社會溝通反省，建立保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍的社會。我想請教，促轉條例之前在2022年5月正式解編了，因為它是任務型的，為期兩年，後來各延長1次，也就是再延長兩年，2022年促進轉型正義委員會也已經解編，我們現在所要推動的不義遺址保存條例跟促轉條例有沒有絕對的因果關係，還是它是促轉條例的延伸嗎？"],["李部長遠：據我了解，促轉會結束之後，把它的工作分配給不同部門，我們文化部所分到的工作就是不義遺址的研究與調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它是促進轉型正義條例的延伸？"],["李部長遠：它結束後把工作重新交給文化部……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我們有看到不義遺址保存條例草案包括審議不義遺址保存重大事項，要成立審議會，明定成員資格、組成資格。我想請教一下，現在審議會的成員資格有沒有已經確認了？會不會讓大家外界質疑，就是過去促轉會有所謂的兩年落日，結果兩年之後又再一年、又再一年，又多延長了兩年，現在解散了，結果我們又再推不義遺址委員會，到最後這個審議會裡面的成員又都是之前促轉會的委員，這樣不就是有點借屍還魂的概念嗎？這樣子還有我們過去法條的意義嗎？部長說明一下。"],["李部長遠：我們這次重新在審議的時候，我想跟前面另外那個促轉會是毫無關係……"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛講說是延伸，現在又講毫無關係……"],["李部長遠：我沒有說延伸，我是說它結束……"],["洪委員孟楷：主席，時間暫停一下，你要不要回倒一下，怎麼部長突然間前後文有點矛盾？主席，可不可以時間暫停一下？因為剛剛我在兩分鐘前問部長是不是延伸，他講說是促轉會之後下來，然後交給文化部的工作，現在又講說完全毫無關係……"],["李部長遠：這樣子好不好，我們在……"],["洪委員孟楷：前言後語對不著啊！"],["李部長遠：我們在精神上是延伸，可是在法律上我們重新開始，可以嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：精神上延伸，法律重新開始……"],["李部長遠：如果沒有促轉會，我們不會有這個不義……"],["洪委員孟楷：精神上延伸，法律重新開始，代表不義遺址保存條例是可以重新訂立，對不對？對嘛！"],["李部長遠：它結束以後交給每一個部門，有新的東西，精神上是延伸的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，精神上延伸，但法律重新調整……"],["李部長遠：法律讓我們重新組……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為我們現在要重新立法討論嘛。"],["李部長遠：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。部長，非常好，開宗明義，很開放的態度。我們就想請教，部長提到保障人權、守護民主價值跟不再重蹈覆轍，所謂觀今宜鑑古，無古不成今，過去歷史的教訓我們不能遺忘，可以原諒，但絕對不能遺忘，對吧？"],["李部長遠：當然，我們的目的就是不要遺忘，而且我們要面對真相。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，請教一下，民國38年也是中華民國的一個紀元，民國38年以前在臺灣這塊土地上面，我們有沒有一些不義的事情發生？"],["李部長遠：民國34年到38年是發生228事件的時間，民國38年以後有白色恐怖，民國34年以前日本統治臺灣的時候發生過很多不義的事，但是它不在我們這個條例之內。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣首座慰安婦博物館──「阿嬤家」2016年成立，當時這3位阿嬤現在都已經在天堂了，那個時候是說日本政府可以對慰安婦的問題正式地向南韓道歉、同意賠償，但對於臺灣在內的其他慰安婦遲遲沒有表達歉意。2016年到現在，8年又過去了，他們一輩子等不到道歉，最後一位慰安婦2023年92歲離開了。二十幾年前那個時候我們也曾經討論過應該要為慰安婦爭取相關應有的權益跟道歉，賠償其實只是其次，我知道這些慰安婦他們真的只是想要正視那時候的歷史，以及讓那個時候的歷史不要再發生。二次世界大戰也好，日據時代也好，這些都是人類歷史上的錯誤，而慰安婦真的是整個大事件底下最令人難過而且無法忍受的事情。所以阿嬤家─和平與女性人權館2016年成立，到現在8年的時間，也都有相關的教育。如果以部長來看，你說要保障人權、守護民主價值、不再重蹈覆轍，你認不認為應該也要正視這時候的歷史，是不是應該也要把這個當作是不義遺址的推動跟討論？"],["李部長遠：我剛剛有特別講到我們在審查的指的是威權時代統治一個一定的範圍……"],["洪委員孟楷：您剛提到了，精神延續嘛！所以我沒有否決精神，轉型正義大家都知道，但是法定重來，所以我們現在是討論個別條文。我現在想請教的是，在民國38年以前，你剛也說了，34年到38年有228事件，34年以前還有很多慘無人道、不遵守人權的事件，為什麼現在文化部提出來的不義遺址保存條例要自我設限在民國38年以後呢？民國38年以前的不算嗎？這個歷史就沒了嗎？沒有人權被破壞嗎？既然這樣的話，我們是不是應該以更開闊的心胸，從民國開始到現在113年，我國只要有任何不義的地方、任何威權的地方、任何人權被破壞的地方，我們是不是都應該要保存？"],["李部長遠：當然是，但是不知道……"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，謝謝部長，所以我們是不是在討論的時候，就不要設限在民國38年以後，而是從有中華民國以來到113年，我們共同來推動，這樣可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：我剛剛有特別強調，我們今天審查的條例，是有一個時間的範圍跟事件，但是您剛剛講的慰安婦也好……"],["洪委員孟楷：我剛才跟您提到了，時間的條件是可以修改的，這是我們在逐條審查時可以討論的，你剛剛也提到了，38年以前也有很多人權事件，也有很多不義啊！我都沒有否決38年以後你們要提的部分，我現在講的是38年以前的這些不義包括慰安婦，慰安婦事件難道不用關心嗎？聽說、據聞、據統計，當時臺灣可能有8萬人、有10萬人，甚至有20萬人的慰安婦，到現在慰安婦都已經是零人了，但這段歷史可以被遺忘嗎？這段歷史難道我們就當作沒有發生嗎？如果我們當作沒有事情發生的話，那我們怎麼樣達成你所謂的不再重蹈覆轍？人類歷史上有很多愚蠢的事情，慰安婦就是其中之一，既然如此的話，我們不是應該要正視這段歷史並告訴後代子孫，不要輕易發起戰爭，戰爭很殘忍，如果真的有戰爭發生的話，可能全部的人都會牽連進去，其中慰安婦也會發生！部長，您是文化人，您怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：慰安婦的事情，包括當年日本人統治臺灣的南洋軍夫的事情，永遠不會被遺忘，而且不知道你有沒有注意到……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們是不是更應該去保存，讓臺灣這塊土地上2,350萬人也都記得這段歷史？"],["李部長遠：對，最近公共電視所播的聽海湧，就是又回到日本人統治臺灣，日本人如何屠殺戰俘的故事，這就是表示我們沒有遺忘過去所有發生的事情，永遠不會忘記，而且就像納粹統治的時期，大家重複的用電影文學一再的演出這些東西，就表示我們不能遺忘所有曾經發生不公不義的事情，加害者跟被害者之間，誰是加害者、誰是被害者，我們釐清這一些的目的，就是希望未來不要再發生。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長。部長，我讓您最後1分鐘完全的獨白，這是之後我逐條審查的時候，絕對會把你這一段話重複播放出來，因為這聽起來代表部長跟本席是有一致的共識，我們都要記得所有的歷史，再強調一次，我相信你也認同，歷史，觀今宜鑑古、無古不成今，我們現在有富裕的臺灣社會，我們有中華民國113年，都是過去所有人累積下來的，所以過去每一段歷史我們都要記得，我們可以原諒但不能遺忘，而這一個過程就是我們一起努力的，所以本席在這個條例裡面，如同剛剛跟部長講的，我們也會推動相關的修正動議，希望部長能夠大力的支持，在逐條審查的時候，我相信召委……"],["主席：已經超過1分鐘了。"],["洪委員孟楷：以女性運動那麼權威的一個召委，應該也不會反對或沒有理由反對，我們共同為慰安婦、阿嬤們，以慰他們在天之靈來做這樣的推動。"],["主席：請部長後續再回應，好嗎？因為已經超過1分鐘了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回，謝謝洪孟楷委員。提醒一下，婦女團體希望正名為軍事性奴隸，謝謝。","再來我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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批發零售業還有住宿餐飲跟醫療保健那再下來"},{"start":83.409,"end":106.922,"text":"勞動部本身有一個缺工調查我們都是把前五這個數字就是我們都拿前五的缺工最嚴重的部分來做個比對但是差很大部長你看這個部分是土地總署的那個數字是173,000就是我們指的缺工最五大行業的裡面是17萬個但是貴部的只有49,700"},{"start":109.723,"end":129.626,"text":"委員 我就是要跟您 剛剛我的報告 其實還有部分要補足 就是 組長的統計方式跟我們不一樣 他詢問的問題 他是問說 你現在缺什麼 你現在是否有 缺人 那麼我們問的是說 你過去6個月真的都找不到人"},{"start":130.632,"end":151.438,"text":"就是這個兩個問題是不一樣的所以主總的問法他一定會呈現這樣都變成一國兩制因為我們都要了解缺工問題那這個數字差很大就算方法學不太一致但是這個數字差很大就是說差了三倍三四倍左右那我們都會擔心說勞動部有沒有在美化這個數字"},{"start":153.238,"end":168.24,"text":"所以缺工的問題可能會比我認為可能會比勞動部所想的還嚴重就用你們的方法去瞭解市委員我們其實並不是說美化數字而是說要精準掌握因為有的時候 那就要跟主計總署討論一下"},{"start":169.582,"end":173.586,"text":"對,我們其實也是想要跟組長來會商這個調查方法的問題謝謝部長那我們看一下那個缺工的理由部長你自己曾經說過缺工當然不等於低薪這基本上我可以理解因為缺工原因太多了"},{"start":185.438,"end":212.717,"text":"但是我們必須承認第一星的行業一定缺工因為前次有這個執行事由委員詢問部長說您認為第一星的標準是什麼那你回答了一個31K嘛這個大家現在都記得了那我們來看看右邊右邊這個數字就是現在五大缺工行業的薪資除了醫療服務業它的中位數是42000是12K稍微好一些但是批發零售業薪資中位數是37351只比那個整全體的行業的那個中位數多11塊錢"},{"start":214.258,"end":214.458,"text":"﹚陳昭姿﹚"},{"start":231.693,"end":239.463,"text":"是的,我的意思是說缺工不能等於低薪啦,我反對就是說,因為這個東西﹖還有很多其他因素我了解,但是低薪確實是一個問題,因為過去我在新聞上看到有一些產業他們會說我們寄出高薪啦,但是找不到人,所以這個說法我們"},{"start":250.095,"end":252.496,"text":"主總的調查也反映國人為什麼找不到工作是待遇太低"},{"start":270.646,"end":271.566,"text":"對,缺工的對策之一是希望薪資提高"},{"start":298.78,"end":319.155,"text":"然後又發國人出來工作的意願就是說你們對於缺工的這個行業有一所謂就業獎勵計畫那主要是鼓勵失業者盡量能夠到缺工的那個行業裡面去求職這個是一個最好的狀況那目前對於製造業、營建工程業住宿餐飲業甚至醫療服務業看起來都有這個獎勵可是請部長看這個數字"},{"start":322.017,"end":341.988,"text":"目前看起來效果有限啊,為什麼我們這樣講呢?尤其製造業跟醫療這個社會服務業,你看你越讓他急,他都嚴重了,他數字越來越嚴重了,就是他的缺工數是一直在增加的,所以這個就業獎勵計畫那個效果沒有呈現,還在惡化,所以是不是只靠補助?"},{"start":343.038,"end":365.344,"text":"有用嗎?是不是該去調查我認為可以調查年輕人他就業他找工作的時候他在意的點是什麼?除了薪水那是不是還有生活品質休假天數啦時數啦或是職場環境等等是不是勞動部要從比較多方面的方向去著手?你看越補助就越民眾啊數字越難看啊"},{"start":366.664,"end":386.236,"text":"不過委員就是這個就業獎勵像莊高麟在跟婦女方面是非常有幫助欸對那麼可能青年方面的績效比較小這確實這我們來檢討好嗎好如果說有一些世俗群是有幫忙的那還是要再做檢討一種的數字看起來就是傻逼"},{"start":387.236,"end":404.092,"text":"沒有用啊﹖撒幣沒看到效果那我 他們部長在反映一件事情之前許部長的時候我也跟他提過這樣的事情成大醫院曾經多次發生這個壓榨護理師強迫他們加班拒絕加班的護理師就被調動職位有一位迄今還在冷凍庫"},{"start":406.031,"end":419.479,"text":"當他們向勞工局反映的時候又變成黑名單囉這個新聞好多次了我最近又收到申請成大護理師向我反映那他們要上系統去填寫加班經費的時候系統會顯示經費不足然後直接鎖起來連申請加班都沒辦法你覺得這樣合情合理嗎我請我署長當然不合理當然不合理這是成功大學副社醫院欸"},{"start":435.188,"end":441.397,"text":"啊成功大學負責院他已經進入前五大收入最高的醫院了大概一年有17多億的營養院他們這樣對待護理師嗎"},{"start":444.894,"end":467.691,"text":"我要再談兩點,等下請勞動部說清楚每次護理師鼓起勇氣向臺南勞工局檢舉的時候勞檢的前幾天突然這個系統又修復了又可以上去填加班費根據勞動檢查法基本上勞檢是不能夠事先通知的但是這樣做法好像已經不止一次了所以我們就會懷疑是不是內神通外鬼"},{"start":468.511,"end":491.547,"text":"是不是說那個台南勞工局他就事先通知院方說好我們現在去勞檢了所以你所有系統都要恢復正常這樣子的做法這個已經好多次了這個我們有檢查處分過台南市勞工局你檢查處分你這個處分是地方地方衛生局處分嗎但是你們要去看處分罰錢多少錢罰錢多少錢好署長請說你罰多少錢"},{"start":497.535,"end":516.36,"text":"跟委員報告陳昭姿醫院確實是臺灣市政府勞工局的首要對象之一因為他們最近幾年的勞資爭議跟申訴案就是一直都有所以我們對檢查當然一定是不會通知檢查第一個你一定要守住然後申訴案的話我們會依照你為什麼罰兩萬塊呢我想你在這邊的年資比何部長還深嘛你應該了解罰兩萬塊像話嗎一年有十多億的"},{"start":526.023,"end":526.603,"text":"陳昭姿"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":82,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時10分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：有請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。昨天商總會邀請勞動部討論缺工議題，不知道部長在那個會議當中有什麼心得嗎？也是談缺工問題。"],["何部長佩珊：是是是，對，當然其實昨天出席的公會非常踴躍，在服務業的範圍裡面，大概各行各業公會都有出席，所以他們反映的問題相當多元，其實我想也符合我們今天的統計調查……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我的意思就是說，我知道在資方他們……因為這個是大老闆們，資方會有一些觀點，我也希望部長記得要跟基層的員工多開會……"],["何部長佩珊：當然，我昨天有跟他們強調……"],["陳委員昭姿：去了解從他們角度的觀點。部長，主計總處對全臺灣的工作職缺做了調查，根據目前最新的統計，看左邊這個紅框框就有24萬個工作職缺，最缺的前五名跟您剛剛的報告方向大概一致，工業部門的製造業跟營建工程業是最多的，然後服務部門是批發零售業還有住宿餐飲跟醫療保健。勞動部本身也有一個缺工調查，我們都拿前五缺工最嚴重的部分來做個比對，但是差很大耶！部長，你看，主計總處的數字是17萬3，就是我們指的缺工五大行業裡面是17萬個，但是貴部的只有4萬9,700。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我就是要跟您……剛剛我的報告其實還有一部分要補足，就是主總的統計方式跟我們不一樣，它詢問的問題是你現在是否有缺人？"],["陳委員昭姿：那勞動部呢？"],["何部長佩珊：那麼我們問的是，你過去6個月真的都找不到人，就是這兩個問題是不一樣的，所以主總的問法一定會呈現比較……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這樣會變成一國兩制，因為我們都要了解缺工問題，這個數字差很大，就算方法學不太一致，但是這個數字差很大，差了三、四倍左右，那我們就會擔心勞動部有沒有在美化這個數值，所以缺工的問題我認為可能會比勞動部所想的還嚴重，就是用你們的方法去了解。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們其實並不是美化數字，而是要精準掌握，因為有的時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：那就要跟主計總處討論一下，因為他們的數字也都是官方的數字，要溝通一下。"],["何部長佩珊：我們其實也是想要跟主總會商調查方法的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。我們看一下缺工的理由，部長，你自己曾經說過缺工當然不等於低薪。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：這基本上我可以理解，因為缺工原因太多了，但是我們必須承認低薪的行業一定缺工，因為前次質詢有委員詢問部長您認為低薪的標準是什麼，您回答31K嘛！這個大家現在都記得了，我們來看看右邊這個數字，就是現在五大缺工行業的薪資，除了醫療服務業，它的中位數是四萬二、42K，稍微好一些，但是批發零售業薪資中位數是3萬7,351，只比全體行業的中位數多11塊錢，然後營建工程業、製造業很低，那住宿及餐飲業是最慘的，是30K。所以完全符合勞動部認定的低薪族群，因此我個人認為缺工不等於低薪，但是低薪從事實上來看是等於缺工啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！我的意思說缺工不能等於低薪，我反對就是說因為……"],["陳委員昭姿：還有很多其他因素我了解。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是低薪確實是一個問題，因為過去我在新聞上看到有一些產業他們會說他們祭出高薪，但是找不到人，所以這個說法我們會有所保留。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：他們祭出高薪還找不到人，是嗎？這個說法確實要存疑，因為根據政府統計結果一致指出低薪的缺工情形最嚴重。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，主總的調查也反映國人為什麼找不到工作，是待遇太低，大概占60%的因素，所以這個確實是符合普遍認知，就是低薪會造成缺工。可是缺工是因為雇主不願意提高薪水，所以大家就不願意去從事，這是一個惡性循環，所以就是說我們不要……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個還是要有對策啊！勞動部要有對策。"],["何部長佩珊：對，缺工的對策之一是希望薪資提高，然後誘發國人出來工作的意願。"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，謝謝部長。就是說你們對於缺工的行業有所謂就業獎勵計畫，主要是鼓勵失業者儘量能夠到缺工的行業裡面去求職，這個是最好的狀況。目前對於製造業、營建工程業、住宿及餐飲業，甚至醫療服務業，看起來都有這個獎勵，可是請部長看這個數字，目前看起來效果有限。為什麼我會這樣講呢？尤其製造業跟醫療社會服務業，你看你越給他錢，他越嚴重耶！他數字越來越嚴重，就是他的缺工數是一直在增加的喔！所以這個就業獎勵計畫效果沒有呈現，還在惡化，所以只靠補助有用嗎？是不是該去調查？我認為可以調查年輕人找工作的時候在意的點是什麼，除了薪水，是不是還有生活品質、休假天數、時數，或是職場環境等等，是不是勞動部要從多方面的方向去著手？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：你看越補助就越嚴重，數字越難看啊！"],["何部長佩珊：不過委員，這個就業獎勵對中高齡及婦女方面是非常有幫助的，可能青年方面的績效比較小，這確實，這我們來檢討好嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：好，如果有一些次族群是有幫忙的，那還是要再做檢討。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為總的數字看起來就是撒幣沒有用啊！撒幣沒看到效果。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們再來檢討。"],["陳委員昭姿：我再跟部長反映一件事，之前許部長的時候，我也跟他提過這樣的事情，成大醫院曾經多次發生壓榨護理師強迫他們加班，拒絕加班的護理師就被調動職位，有一位迄今還在冷凍庫，當他們向勞工局反映的時候又變成黑名單，這個新聞出現好多次了。我最近又收到陳情，成大護理師向我反映他們要上系統去填寫加班經費的時候，系統會顯示經費不足，然後直接鎖起來，連申請加班都沒辦法，部長，你覺得這樣合情合理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我請我署長……當然不合理，當然不合理。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是成功大學附設醫院，成功大學附設醫院已經進入前五大收入最高的醫院，大概一年有十七多億的盈餘，他們這樣對待護理師嗎？我還要再談兩點，等一下請勞動部說清楚，每次護理師鼓起勇氣向臺南勞工局檢舉的時候，勞檢的前幾天，突然這個系統又修復了，又可以上去填加班費。根據勞動檢查法，基本上勞檢是不能夠事先通知的，但是這樣的作法已經不只一次了，所以我們就會懷疑是不是內神通外鬼，是不是臺南勞工局就事先通知院方說：好，我們現在去勞檢了，所以你所有系統都要恢復正常。這樣子的作法已經好多次了。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，臺南市勞工局針對這個有檢查處分過。"],["陳委員昭姿：檢查處分，這個處分是地方衛生局處分嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：臺南市勞工局。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是你們去看處分罰鍰多少錢？署長請說。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們再提供資料給委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：你罰多少錢？兩萬元啦！"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，成大醫院確實是臺南市政府勞工局的一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：黑名單吧！"],["鄒署長子廉：首要的對象之一，因為他們最近幾年的勞資爭議跟申訴案件一直都有，所以我們對檢查當然一定是不會通知檢查……"],["陳委員昭姿：第一個，你一定要守住。"],["鄒署長子廉：然後申訴案，我們會依照……"],["陳委員昭姿：第二個，你為什麼罰兩萬塊呢？我想你在這邊的年資比何部長還深嘛！"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：你應該了解罰兩萬塊像話嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：一年有十多億的淨收入。"],["鄒署長子廉：不同的法條罰多少錢我們有一個法條基準。"],["陳委員昭姿：還是它有範圍？我每次看到你們都罰最低的。"],["鄒署長子廉：是，我們會再把詳細的裁罰紀錄給委員參考。"],["陳委員昭姿：現在護理師已經很珍貴了，好不好？"],["鄒署長子廉：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：請好好照顧護理師。"],["鄒署長子廉：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：成大醫院身為國立醫院不應該做出這樣的事情來，謝謝主席。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言，謝謝部長的回應。","下一位我們請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156346","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adeb0bdd239495b9b374d3d0b4a24d41de39851a42f553be83073918cfeb3a2548d5ea18f28b6918d91.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GDP還是用這些AI來去計算粉席剛剛也有去算過如果說第一輪的抽獎"},{"start":45.148,"end":73.652,"text":"的機率跟第二輪抽獎的機率一個第一輪是五個中獎名額第二輪中獎是九個中獎名額九萬人來去參與的話那這樣子到最後得出來的結論同一人兩次中獎的機率為乎其為啊這個數字我都不會念那更何況是同一次抽獎裡面有四個人都符合這樣的一個機率那是代表什麼意思?乘四啊就是這樣的機率要乘以四次啊是不是?"},{"start":74.622,"end":92.376,"text":"那第一時間我看到財政部有講沒有違法那再來不到12個小時又講說來上一張沒有內定造假但是要請國稅局查證那請教國人大家都很關心阿"},{"start":93.612,"end":112.937,"text":"現在次長有沒有掌握到底是什麼狀況發生這樣的一個機率?包括委員目前我們還沒有完全掌握因為還沒有完全掌握對現在我們是國稅局已經去把那個就是承辦機關他們的那個電腦系統還有相關的資訊所以這個是委外的標案對是委外的標案對好這個委外標案多少錢?多少錢?"},{"start":115.309,"end":128.002,"text":"總共是...這個委案因為說實在話本席昨天也很關心我請我們的同仁上網看一下財政部的絕標公告我們還發覺這一個標案還真的很難找到"},{"start":129.079,"end":134.645,"text":"所以這個標案總共多少錢?應該是450.450萬吧450萬450萬的標案總共做時間是從6月到9月嘛 對不對這是參與抽獎的時間那真正整個抽獎結束的時間是10月25號"},{"start":148.02,"end":168.598,"text":"450450萬有包含這些獎品、獎項以及辦理：洪孟楷那出現了這樣的一個狀況當然國人就會有質疑就覺得說為什麼會這樣子因為這個機率真的是不可思議甚至有人講說可以申請金氏世界紀錄那所以什麼時候會讓國人知道我們財政部的一個調查狀況"},{"start":169.537,"end":193.095,"text":"目前我們已經請國稅局在積極調查中我們也希望他們盡快能夠給我們答案啦所以我們希望在短時間之內幾天之內就可以有一個你知道這個對於財政部來講我覺得對所有機關當然都不應該發生這樣的事情但是尤其是發生在財政部因為大家會同仁會認為財政國稅這都是支柱必較數字都算得非常精準"},{"start":193.795,"end":215.934,"text":"你不能說跟國人要納稅的時候一塊錢兩塊錢都跑不掉結果突然間你們辦一個活動九萬人參與結果機率那麼低然後居然有四個人可以直接中獎那這樣子發生在財政部我覺得這對於公信力是非常大的折扣那現在你如果說講是說不是財政部問題可能是委外廠商的問題那委外廠商會不會有相關的一個連帶責任"},{"start":217.824,"end":243.204,"text":"這當然就是要看我們那個後續追查的結果到底實際上的狀況是怎樣如果確實有相關確實是在這個整個程序過程當中或每一個環節當中有發生一些有問題的事件我們會依照相關的規定來處理相關規定有怎麼樣處理就看是不是我不知道他們契約當時的契約裡面是不是有追究責任或賠償或只是後續的一些其他的處理事件"},{"start":243.715,"end":254.377,"text":"好,那本期再跟您再請教一下,像這個標案它也是用本預算的部分,那所以說它是不是某種程度上它也算是侵犯到人民、國人、納稅人的一個權益?"},{"start":255.959,"end":276.406,"text":"因為我今天早上居然還看到是說我不知道說是不是財政部正式的回應啊講說這個是用雲端發票的基金來去做辦理所以跟本預算沒關係所以這樣子即便是可能有瑕疵也不影響國人的權益是這樣嗎難道基金的預算基金的預算不是人民的納稅錢或是說我們相關的一個消費來去累積嗎"},{"start":278.329,"end":293.43,"text":"怎麼可能說縱容到這種程度好像不要沒關係辦活動沒關係換錢iPhone反正我也沒有參與啊iPhone不是我我也沒有問題啊但重點在於是說今天辦出來這樣的活動然後被國人質疑了"},{"start":295.004,"end":308.304,"text":"我們還會這樣子輕描淡寫嗎?不會,這件事情我們非常重視基本上我們一定會嚴查整個流程還有就是整個環節到底有沒有任何的狀況有沒有問題有沒有廠商這家廠商是第一次投票還是之前就有投票過?"},{"start":309.165,"end":328.463,"text":"有投標過也有投標過所以他也不是第一次來參與的廠商那既然如此的話會不會過去的活動可能沒有被人家踢爆也有類似的狀況因為現在PTT上面也有講還有另外一個抽獎活動也是我們財政部辦的說有特定姓氏的人30%的中獎機率"},{"start":331.4,"end":347.956,"text":"那這樣子會不會變成是說到最後大家會看原本我們以為財政部應該是最支柱必較的原本以為覺得說我們鼓勵雲端發票很好啊少無止化啊但沒想到原來你們拿450萬公帑原來你們拿700萬公帑辦的活動變成是都有瑕疵"},{"start":349.108,"end":370.033,"text":"報告委員剛才委員提到的另外一個標案不是我們財政部辦理的案不是財政部辦理嗎網路上有知道這個訊息是不是稅捐處對自己辦的活動也都是這個稅國稅、稅捐、財政怎麼會讓國人覺得應該是最支柱必較的"},{"start":371.271,"end":396.39,"text":"你查一稅查兩稅都要叫大家補稅要繳稅那結果沒有想到我們花450萬辦的一個活動居然變成是要上金氏世界紀錄我說實在話你也相對無辜啊今天部長在財政委員會還沒有來嘛那你當然我要好好的了解嘛那最後來我們看一下2025年說統一發票經費大增再加開雲端500元獎項"},{"start":398.656,"end":420.357,"text":"這是次長你前幾天的新聞嗎?這樣子?如果辦下去的話會不會讓大家質疑你的公信力可是這個是我們統一發票的中獎抽獎的活動我們那個都是公開抽獎的而且從來沒有人質疑過這個問題以前都是非常公正公開而且非常透明而且沒有重複對獎的問題次長"},{"start":422.699,"end":437.549,"text":"市長,你在一天前,你們在一天前不到12個小時前你們也是這樣講啊說這一次的雲端發票活動公開透明然後怎麼樣的部分本席現在提出來只是要告訴你就是說"},{"start":438.149,"end":446.997,"text":"我其實很痛心啊我說實在話沒有人想要看到你今天來這樣子備詢啊但是既然發生這樣的狀況短時間如果說還不能讓大家釐清的話只會讓大家覺得國人對於我們財政單位會以公信力大打折扣這才是最擔憂的地方啊報告委員我們一定會盡快的釐清而且會把釐清的結果對外說明清楚"},{"start":458.666,"end":477.015,"text":"市長,言政以待這件事,這件事情沒有黨派色彩,因為這個其實是傷害到是我們財政部這麼一個精緻招牌,大家覺得你最支柱必較,大家覺得你對數字最敏感,大家覺得你們應該是最公正客觀透明的,結果發生這樣的狀況。謝謝,謝謝洪委員,謝謝委員,謝謝市長,謝謝洪委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":833,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時8分）好，謝謝召委。麻煩請李慶華次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，這兩天財政部可能可以申請金氏世界紀錄，有沒有注意到？"],["李次長慶華：有，知道輿情在反映什麼事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。因為有人講說，雲端發票的抽獎有4人重複抽獎，重複中獎，以機率來看，真的是微乎其微。有網紅用ChatGPT或AI去計算，本席剛剛也有去算過第一輪抽獎的機率跟第二輪抽獎的機率，第一輪是5個中獎名額，第二輪是9個中獎名額，9萬人參與的話，到最後得出來的結論，同一人兩次中獎的機率微乎其微，這個數字我都不會唸，更何況是同一次抽獎裡面，有4個人都符合這樣的機率，那是代表什麼意思？就是這樣的機率要乘以4次，是不是？第一時間我看到財政部講沒有違法，再來不到12個小時又說沒有內定造假，但是要請國稅局查證，國人都很關心，請教現在次長有沒有掌握到底是什麼狀況，發生這樣的機率？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，目前我們還沒有完全掌握，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有完全掌握？"],["李次長慶華：對。現在國稅局已經去把承辦機關的電腦系統和相關……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這個是委外的標案？"],["李次長慶華：對，是委外的標案。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，這一個委外標案多少錢？"],["李次長慶華：總共是……"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在的話，本席昨天也很關心，我請我們的同仁上網看一下財政部的決標公告，我們發覺這一個標案還真的很難找到，所以這個標案總共多少錢？"],["李次長慶華：應該是450萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：450萬？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，450萬的標案，時間是從6月到9月，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：對，6月6日到9月30日。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。"],["李次長慶華：這是參與抽獎的時間，真正整個抽獎結束的時間是10月25日。"],["洪委員孟楷：450萬有包含這一些獎品獎項？"],["李次長慶華：都包含在裡面。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那出現了這樣的狀況，當然國人就會有質疑，就覺得為什麼會這樣子？因為這個機率真的是不可思議，甚至有人說可以申請金氏世界紀錄，什麼時候會讓國人知道財政部的調查狀況？"],["李次長慶華：目前我們已經請國稅局在積極調查中，我們也希望他們儘快能夠給我們答案，所以我們希望在短時間之內，幾天之內就可以有一個查證的結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：你知道這個對於財政部來講，我覺得所有機關當然都不應該發生這樣的事情，但是尤其是發生在財政部。"],["李次長慶華：是，了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為同仁會認為財政、國稅都是錙銖必較，數字都算得非常精準，你不能要跟國人納稅的時候，一塊錢、兩塊錢都跑不掉，結果突然間你們辦一個活動，9萬人參與，機率那麼低，居然有4個人可以直接中獎，發生在財政部，我覺得這對於公信力是非常大的折扣。"],["李次長慶華：了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在你如果說不是財政部的問題，可能是委外廠商的問題，那委外廠商會不會有相關的連帶責任？"],["李次長慶華：這個當然就是要看我們後續追查的結果，到底實際上的狀況是怎麼樣，如果確實是在整個程序過程當中或每一個環節當中有發生一些有問題的事件，我們會依照相關的規定來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：相關規定有怎麼樣的處理？"],["李次長慶華：我不知道他們當時的契約裡面是不是有追究責任或賠償，或者是後續一些其他的處理事件。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。本席再跟您請教一下，這個標案也是用本預算的部分，所以說是不是某種程度上也算是侵犯到人民、國人、納稅人的權益？因為我今天早上居然還看到財政部回應，我不知道是不是財政部正式的回應，回應說這個是用雲端發票的基金來辦理，所以跟本預算沒關係，即便是可能有瑕疵，也不影響國人的權益，是這樣嗎？難道基金的預算不是人民的納稅錢或是相關消費去累積的嗎？怎麼可能縱容到這種程度？好像「無要無緊」，辦活動，沒關係，反正送iPhone。我沒有參與，iPhone不是我的，我也沒有問題啊，但重點在於今天辦出這樣的活動，然後被國人質疑了，我們還會這樣子輕描淡寫嗎？"],["李次長慶華：不會，這件事情我們非常重視，基本上我們一定會嚴查整個流程，還有整個環節到底有沒有有任何的狀況，有沒有問題，有沒有廠商該負的責任……"],["洪委員孟楷：這一家廠商是第一次投標，還是之前就有投標過？"],["李次長慶華：有投標過。"],["洪委員孟楷：也有投標過？"],["李次長慶華：有投標過。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以也不是第一次來參與的廠商？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：既然如此的話，會不會過去的活動可能沒有被人家踢爆也有類似的狀況？因為現在PTT上面也有講，還有另外一個抽獎活動，也是財政部辦的，說有特定姓氏的人有30%的中獎機率，那這樣子會不會變成是說到最後大家會看，原本我們以為財政部應該是最錙銖必較的，原本覺得鼓勵雲端發票很好，促進無紙化，但沒想到原來你們拿450萬或幾百萬公帑辦的活動，變成都有瑕疵。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，剛才委員提到的另外一個標案，不是財政部辦理的案子。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是財政部辦理的嗎？網路上有知道這個訊息，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：是高雄市稅捐處自己辦的活動。"],["洪委員孟楷：也都是國稅、稅捐、財政相關單位，怎麼會讓國人覺得應該是最錙銖必較的單位，差一塊、兩塊都要叫大家補稅，要繳稅，結果沒有想到花450萬辦的活動，居然變成躍上金氏世界紀錄。我說實在話，你也相對無辜啊。今天部長在財政委員會還沒有來，當然我要好好地瞭解嘛。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後我們看一下，說2025年統一發票經費大增，再加開雲端發票獎金500元獎項，這是次長前幾天的新聞嘛。"],["李次長慶華：對。這個跟中獎沒有關係……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果辦下去的話，會不會讓大家質疑你的公信力？"],["李次長慶華：可是這個是統一發票的中獎、抽獎的活動，那個都是公開抽獎的，而且從來沒有人質疑過這個問題，目前都是非常公正、公開，非常透明而且沒有重複兌獎的問題。但是另外那個是委外，這個是我們自己承辦的。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，在一天前，不到12個小時前，你們也是這樣講，說這一次的雲端發票活動公開透明。本席現在提出來，只是要告訴你，我其實很痛心，說實在話，沒有人想要看到你今天來這樣子備詢。"],["李次長慶華：對，我們也很不願意發生。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是既然發生這樣的狀況，短時間如果還不能讓大家釐清的話，只會讓國人對財政單位的公信力大打折扣，這才是最令人擔憂的地方。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我們一定會儘快釐清，而且會把釐清的結果對外說明清楚。"],["主席：好，請財政部釐清，檢討改進。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，嚴正以待這件事情，這件事情沒有黨派色彩，因為這個其實是傷害到財政部這一個金字招牌，大家覺得你最錙銖必較，大家覺得你對數字最敏感，大家覺得你們應該是最公正、客觀、透明的，結果發生這樣的狀況。提醒一下，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝洪委員，謝謝次長。","現在有請陳亭妃委員。陳亭妃、陳亭妃委員不在。","有請傅崐萁委員。傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","有請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","有請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","有請吳春城委員。吳春城、吳春城委員不在。","有請林思銘委員。林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","有請鄭正鈐委員。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員林思銘、傅崐萁所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},{"id":"156345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade7adb484dd6138b19b22eacfd31272a3d01f23eb7619bd402047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"13:50:37 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董事長你要不要說一下"},{"start":98.046,"end":110.903,"text":"好委員第一個事情我們要減少自傳費的發生這點事情是確定的這是一個我覺得不可以發生的事情那它發生了那面對但是不要變成好像這是應該的"},{"start":111.752,"end":138.522,"text":"那個委員我有說明一下因為自然會發生有的時候真的是比方說燃煤如果被要求降減煤的時候我們因為傳播的調度或者是用電量減少像去年2023年我理解但是不可以一年花20億啊是所以我們現在要下降這個叫做太離譜了要減低這個事情發生不過我也跟委員報告我們其實是有在提高它整個備用的備用的量所以才會往上這是審計部說的不是我黃珊珊說的是"},{"start":139.622,"end":161.179,"text":"你們不要去打臉審計部然後想要自己說明如果今年劃到4億還是不應該啊這個我回去深刻檢討我非常贊同這個委員的指教那接下來就是部長我想再討論一下有關基隆協和電廠的事協和電廠在我們的官網一直都說今年底要除役"},{"start":162.974,"end":189.652,"text":"臺電也說要轉緊急備用電力我現在要跟你確定他是不是確定廚藝只轉緊急備用我這個部分我的瞭解是不是轉緊急備用會看狀況來所以還不確定還不確定還不確定那如果轉緊急備用在環境部我上禮拜諮詢的時候環境部的就說如果轉緊急備用的話環境部就可以限制他運轉的時間時數"},{"start":193.148,"end":193.448,"text":"我請董事長"},{"start":211.889,"end":241.269,"text":"好,各位委員報告就是我們第一個是協和電廠會依照環保法規在運轉第二個是720小時我們會把它適度的運用在會盡量購用不要再告訴大家說我其實沒有廚藝偷偷的繼續用好嗎部長我今天要講的就是說我不是沒有廚藝偷偷的用我就是一定會照著規範在做沒錯好我現在要說的是協和電廠它是一個燃油電廠它的燃油成本一度將近是7塊半"},{"start":242.069,"end":242.329,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":264.964,"end":285.314,"text":"去做這個緊急預轉要賠多少錢?我們應該趕快把它轉成燃氣的電廠燃氣要7年了部長這7年裡面沒有東西啊這7年裡面如果繼續做備載的話如果這個市接同意讓我接它應該是同時可以進行沒有那麼快至少要7年"},{"start":286.348,"end":286.468,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1547,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（13時50分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好，昨天我們剛好在專報的時候討論過這個題目，我看到昨天台電有回了一個新聞稿，所謂的滯船費3年30億元，他們的說法是因為臺中的煤倉沒有完工的原因，那臺中煤倉沒有完工的原因，我們知道之前花了140億元蓋了8年，接下來昨天的台電新聞稿看得我不知道要笑還是要哭，他們說這樣的話今年只需要花4億元，是嗎？也就是說，4億是很驕傲的意思嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我是不是可以請台電董事長說明？"],["黃委員珊珊：我先請教部長，你覺得我們只花4億是要覺得很驕傲的意思嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有看到這整個內容。"],["黃委員珊珊：他說今年只需要花4億元滯船費，前3年花了30億元，所以今年只要花4億元。部長，我的意思是我們連4塊錢都不應該花！"],["郭部長智輝：我同意，我也尊重委員這樣的看法。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是我們還是希望台電把國家的錢當成錢。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：不要把國家的錢當成他們可以恣意浪費的東西。","董事長要不要說一下？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，第一個是我們要減少滯船費的發生，這件事情是確定的。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是我覺得不可以發生的事情，既然它發生了，就要面對，但是不要變成好像這是應該的。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我要說明一下，對於滯船費發生，有的時候真的是……比方說燃煤如果被要求降、減煤的時候，我們因為船舶的調度或者是用電量減少，像去年2023年……"],["黃委員珊珊：我理解，但是不可以一年花20億啊！"],["曾董事長文生：是，所以我們現在要下降，要減低這個事情發生。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個叫做太離譜了。"],["曾董事長文生：不過我也跟委員報告，我們其實是有在提高它整個備用的量。"],["黃委員珊珊：要虛心地檢討，這是審計部說的，不是我黃珊珊說的。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你們不要去打臉審計部，然後想要自己說明，如果今年花到4億，還是不應該。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我回去深刻檢討，我非常贊同委員的指教。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來再請教部長有關基隆協和電廠的事。協和電廠在官網上一直都說今年底要除役，台電也說要轉緊急備用電力，我現在要跟你確定，它是不是確定除役，只轉緊急備用？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我的瞭解是……"],["黃委員珊珊：是不是轉緊急備用？"],["郭部長智輝：會看狀況來……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以還不確定？"],["郭部長智輝：還不確定。"],["黃委員珊珊：那如果轉緊急備用，我上禮拜質詢環境部的時候，環境部是說如果轉緊急備用的話，環境部就可以限制它運轉的時數，所以接下來如果轉成緊急備用，我們夠不夠用？它如果要緊急備用的話，它能不能夠符合現在台電供電的需求？"],["郭部長智輝：我請董事長跟你報告一下。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，請董事長。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，第一，協和電廠會依照環保法規運轉；第二，720小時我們會把它適度地運用在夏季尖峰的時候。"],["黃委員珊珊：要儘量夠用，不要再告訴大家其實沒有除役，而偷偷地繼續用，好嗎？部長，我今天要講的就是……"],["曾董事長文生：不是沒有除役偷偷地用，我們就是一定會照著規範在做。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。我現在要說的是，協和電廠是一個燃油電廠，它的燃油成本1度將近7.5元，我們收電費才收3元，所以協和電廠發1度電就賠4.5元，如果它要做緊急備用，我沒有意見，那是為了國家的整體需要，但是接下去假設環評通過，協和電廠接下去的四接完成，新建大概要7年的時間，我現在只是要問，我們打算這7年裡面花多少錢去做緊急運轉？如果要賠，要賠多少錢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們應該趕快把它轉成燃氣的電廠。"],["黃委員珊珊：燃氣要7年喔，部長，這7年裡面沒有東西啊，這7年裡面，如果繼續做備載的話……"],["郭部長智輝：如果四接同意讓我接，它應該是同時可以進行。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有那麼快，至少要7年，至少要7年。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：這7年，部長可以去算一算，打打算盤算算這7年協和電廠用7.5元的發電成本，我們要賠多少、賠多久？我希望你能夠進一步去瞭解。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分就是我昨天說的，基隆有很多的地熱資源，希望部長能夠把這個納入你們接下來去探勘的對象，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好的，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝部長。"],["主席：登記發言的委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。張嘉郡委員、陳超明委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於1週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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對不對"},{"start":120.031,"end":138.548,"text":"是的那所以後來第二次我們桃園市政府又依照行政程序法規定認為三家廠商不具備入園的要件並撤銷三家廠商的入園許可那這一部分提出的部分經濟部同意嗎?"},{"start":140.221,"end":160.438,"text":"這個權利是地方政府的對他第二次因為第一次你說他單就撤銷推薦函好來廢止這三家廠商入園許可你們認為這是不對的應該因為你說這個從頭到尾決定權主導權都在桃園市政府依圖管規定就可以並不能因一個"},{"start":161.358,"end":189.119,"text":"不具法律效力的推薦函．就來廢止這三家的入園許可嗎．所以第二次．桃園市政府就依照行政程序法．來提出說認為行政程序不正義．來撤銷這三家廠商入園許可．那這部分．不知道部長對這有沒有什麼意見報告委員我想你剛才在所說的這個．這個其實不是經濟部．這個的決定吧這個是那個．"},{"start":190.78,"end":217.558,"text":"有的一個委員會訴願委員會的依法決定那我們只能依法行政所以重點其實經濟部一直從頭到尾的立場就沒有改變嘛你也認為其實這個陶科廠商入園的規定就是桃園市政府有絕對的主導權跟決定權他只要依照這個圖管規定來辦理即可嘛是不是"},{"start":218.701,"end":242.126,"text":"是的法令規定就是這個是地方政府的權利地方政府要怎麼做他有權利這樣做但是送來溯源的這個部分其實不是這個命題我們也不能夠去影響溯源委員會那個是由專家學者他們來討論做出來的決定所以現在第二次市政府提出的還沒有決定"},{"start":243.526,"end":268.067,"text":"蘇聯委員會還沒有決定對他們還在還在我們我們不會去影響這樣的事情所以也真的因為第一次被退回喔桃園市政府也不再糾結這個經濟部撤銷推薦函的部分他是針對109年12月23號那時候桃園市政府跟經濟部有開了第二次的會議那會議的結錄也有公文啊"},{"start":268.507,"end":293.15,"text":"他的結論就是說是SRF為再生能源的產業並由經濟部向市府推薦以專案核准進駐桃科園區也就是當初經濟部就是把SRF認定是再生能源也就是國家的重大能源政策所以發這個推薦函給桃園市政府"},{"start":293.93,"end":309.358,"text":"要求桃園市政府以專案核准的方式讓他進駐桃科園區那針對這一部分我們也來了解當初所以3家SRF廠廠商是經過這一部分才進去那後來"},{"start":310.759,"end":336.785,"text":"經濟部當然也有表示推薦函沒有法律效力所以不能依推薦函就撤銷這三家的入園許可那當然我們這一部分我們覺得也是有道理的並不能因為他沒有推薦函就廢止所以後來桃園市政府才用行政程序法居然沒有推薦函那就表示你沒有推薦函就不應該用專案的方式讓你通過"},{"start":337.665,"end":352.283,"text":"入園所以要求居然撤銷的推薦案就不能以專案的方式那就必須按照原來陶科的土地使用分區管制的要點應該要重新來走程序"},{"start":353.53,"end":375.196,"text":"那部長覺得這樣對不對?同意阿喔同意嘛所以其實就就是只要重新走程序就對了嘛所以我也希望喔訴願委員會要知道要記得我們經濟部的方向當初桃園市政府就是因為經濟部認定SRF是再生能源所以"},{"start":376.376,"end":401.242,"text":"經濟部一推薦函桃園市政府才同意以專案的方式放准讓他入刑所以居然撤銷這個推薦函所以基本上這個專案已經不存在了就應該要重新走這個程序而且這部分我據我們有看到經濟部也有針對這部分好像有針對新的"},{"start":402.122,"end":402.923,"text":"我請這個能源署長跟你報告"},{"start":421.247,"end":440.791,"text":"各位報告這次的修法是把這個要納入到再生條例獎勵優惠的只限於生殖能SRF的料源是屬生殖能部分保留其他的部分就回到熱處理用氣墊共生的方式來保留那我請問一下SRF它裡面所壓縮的原料是不是一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物所以它要區分我們在這次修法的理由是把它做區分"},{"start":440.831,"end":460.384,"text":"就是原本它裡面就是有一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物所以這次經濟部特別來針對這一部分來修改也就是說以後裡面有一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物就排除再生能源的發電設備之外對不對?排除在我們的獎勵然後改用氣電共生的方式來輔導它設置"},{"start":461.505,"end":490.066,"text":"對阿所以也就是說SRF就是如果SRF裡面是用一般廢氣物跟一般CA廢氣物他就排除再生能源發電設備的獎勵裡面嘛所以也就是把SRF如果裡面還有這間就排除在外所以也就是說因為現在是在預告階段對阿就是說方向就是這樣嘛所以也就是說SRF基本上以經濟部新修改的方向就把它排除在再生能源之外"},{"start":491.021,"end":509.387,"text":"在申請人員的發電設備的獎勵之外嘛所以在這一部分我也特別來跟我們經濟部來說明我們一定要記得當初桃園市政府會同意他入園就是因為經濟部把他認定"},{"start":510.427,"end":528.761,"text":"再生能源然後經濟部一再生能源國家能源之重大政策所以才用這個推薦函開了兩次的會議要求桃園市政府以專案核准的方式讓他來通過所以今天這兩個要件第一"},{"start":529.562,"end":557.485,"text":"推薦函經濟部也已經撤回第二這個再生能源其實當初那個時候我們也詢問過我們的環境部那時候薛副省部長他也直接很明確就講他說這個絕對不是綠能然後針對再生能源的部分我們剛剛也有講再生能源他針對發電設備他已經排除在獎勵之外所以基本這一部分我們希望就像剛剛部長講的我們"},{"start":558.506,"end":574.799,"text":"這三家廠商重新入園我們希望按照這個程序居然已經撤銷推薦函而且你們已經要秉儲在再生能源發電設備的獎勵之外所以希望這個溯源能夠支持桃園市政府"},{"start":575.259,"end":590.871,"text":"撤銷他的入園規定讓他重新走這個程序他如果真的是一切合法我們是絕對歡迎只要經濟部還有環境部在12月份重新修訂加研的辦法的部分他真的都能夠通過"},{"start":591.511,"end":615.043,"text":"我們也沒有拒絕他的理由我們一直堅持這個一定要程序正義居然已經撤銷了推薦函又秉持在再生能源發電設備之外所以希望這個訴願能夠支持桃園市政府的行政處分讓他重新走程序部長這樣可以嗎?訴願委員是獨立的啦所以我們也不能夠要…那訴願委員是誰騙的?"},{"start":618.331,"end":620.572,"text":"我講他們都是公正公義人士啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1501,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時39分）謝謝主席，麻煩請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝郭部長。今天主題是針對我國設置SRF發電廠之規劃評估及環境影響評估，邀請經濟部跟環境部的專案報告。一直以來，針對桃園三家SRF廠商進駐程序不正義一事，我們已經多次向經濟部表達地方鄉親及地方政府的反對意見，像桃園市政府已經提出兩次撤銷三家廠商入園許可，這部分部長應該知道吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我應該知道。"],["涂委員權吉：之前部長對這部分也有在媒體表示，有關SRF廠入園與否的主導權跟決定權在桃園市政府，而且尊重主管單位的決定嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：我們也知道，第一次桃園市政府以經濟部撤銷推薦函為由，認為三家廠商不具備入園的要件，因此那時候提出撤銷三家廠商的入園許可；經濟部後來在6月9日也撤銷了市府廢止入園的行政處分，表示廠商的入園許是桃園市政府的職權，然後依土管規定即可，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["涂委員權吉：後來第二次桃園市政府又依照行政程序法規定，認為三家廠商不具備入園的要件，並撤銷三家廠商的入園許可，這個提出的部分，經濟部同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個權力是地方政府的。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為第一次你說它單就撤銷推薦函來廢止這三家廠商入園許可，你們認為這是不對的，因為你說這個從頭到尾決定權、主導權都在桃園市政府，依土管規定就可以，並不能因一個不具法律效力的推薦函就來廢止這三家的入園許可嘛，所以第二次桃園市政府就依照行政程序法提出，認為行政程序不正義，而撤銷這三家廠商入園許可，不知道部長對這部分有沒有什麼意見？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你剛才所說的這個其實不是經濟部的決定，這是訴願委員會依法決定，我們只能依法行政。"],["涂委員權吉：所以其實經濟部從頭到尾的立場就沒有改變，你也認為桃科廠商入園的規定，就是桃園市政府有絕對的主導權跟決定權，只要依照土管規定來辦理即可，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，法令規定這個是地方政府的權力，地方政府要怎麼做，它有權力這樣做，但是送來訴願的這個部分其實不是這個命題，我們也不能夠去影響訴願委員會，那個是由專家學者討論所做出來的決定。"],["涂委員權吉：所以第二次市政府提出的還沒有決定嘛，訴願委員會還沒有決定？"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們不會去影響這樣的事情。"],["涂委員權吉：所以也因為第一次被退回，桃園市政府不再糾結經濟部撤銷推薦函的部分，它是針對109年12月23日那時候桃園市政府跟經濟部有開了第二次的會議，會議的結論也有公文，結論是視SRF為再生能源的產業，並由經濟部向市府推薦，以專案核准進駐桃科園區。也就是當初經濟部把SRF認定是再生能源，也就是國家的重大能源政策，所以發這個推薦函給桃園市政府，要求桃園市政府以專案核准的方式讓他們進駐桃科園區。針對這一部分，我們也瞭解當初三家SRF廠商是經過這一部分才進去，後來經濟部當然也有表示推薦函沒有法律效力，所以不能依推薦函就撤銷這三家的入園許可。當然這一部分我們覺得也是有道理，並不能因為沒有推薦函就廢止，所以後來桃園市政府採用行政程序法，既然沒有推薦函，就不應該用專案的方式通過入園，所以要求既然撤銷了推薦函，就不能以專案的方式，那就必須按照原來桃科的土地使用分區管制要點，應該要重新走程序。部長覺得這樣對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：同意。"],["涂委員權吉：同意嘛，其實就是只要重新走程序就對了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對呀！"],["涂委員權吉：所以我也希望訴願委員會要知道並記得經濟部的方向，當初桃園市政府就是因為經濟部認定SRF是再生能源，所以經濟部依推薦函，桃園市政府才同意以專案的方式放准讓它入園，所以既然撤銷這個推薦函，基本上這個專案已經不存在了，就應該要重新走程序。而且我們也看到經濟部針對新的再生能源發展條例好像有新的規範，是不是要排除一般廢棄物，以一般事業廢棄物列入再生能源的發電設備？因為經濟部有公告、預告。"],["郭部長智輝：我請能源署長跟你報告。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，這次的修法是把要納入到再生條例獎勵優惠的只限於生質能，SRF的料源是屬生質能部分保留，其他的部分就回到熱處理，用汽電共生的方式來處理。"],["涂委員權吉：那我請問一下，SRF它裡面所壓縮的原料是不是一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物？"],["游署長振偉：對，它要區分，我們在這次修法是把它做區分。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛！就是原本裡面就有一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物，所以這次經濟部特別針對這部分做修改，也就是以後裡面有一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物就排除再生能源的發電設備之外，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：排除在我們的獎勵，然後改用汽電共生的方式來輔導它設置。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以也就是如果SRF裡面是用一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物，它就排除再生能源發電設備的獎勵裡面。"],["游署長振偉：是，如果……"],["涂委員權吉：所以也就是把SRF裡面還有這些就排除在外。"],["游署長振偉：就是新法通過以後，因為現在是在預告階段。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！方向就是這樣嘛！"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["涂委員權吉：也就是說，SRF基本上以經濟部新修改的方向就把它排除在再生能源之外。"],["游署長振偉：再生能源發電設備的獎勵之外，只有獎勵的部分。"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以我對於這部分要特別跟經濟部說明，我們一定要記得，當初桃園市政府會同意它入園，就是因為經濟部把它認定為再生能源，然後經濟部依再生能源國家能源之重大政策，所以才用推薦函開了兩次會議，要求桃園市政府以專案核准的方式讓它通過。而今天這兩個要件，第一，經濟部已經撤回推薦函；第二，對於再生能源，其實當初我們也詢問過環境部薛富盛部長，他也直接很明確講這個絕對不是綠能。然後針對再生能源的部分，我們剛剛也有講，再生能源針對發電設備已經排除在獎勵之外，所以這一部分，我們希望就像剛剛部長講的，對於這三家廠商重新入園，我們希望按照這個程序，既然已經撤銷推薦函，而且你們已經要摒除在再生能源發電設備的獎勵之外，所以希望這個訴願能夠支持桃園市政府撤銷它的入園規定，讓它重新走這個程序。它如果真的是一切合法，我們是絕對歡迎，只要經濟部和環境部在12月份重新修訂加嚴辦法的部分，它真的都能夠通過的話，我們也沒有拒絕它的理由。我們一直堅持一定要程序正義，既然已經撤銷了推薦函，又摒除在再生能源發電設備之外，所以希望這個訴願能夠支持桃園市政府的行政處分，讓它重新走程序，部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：訴願委員是獨立的，所以我們也不能夠要求。"],["涂委員權吉：訴願委員是誰聘的？"],["郭部長智輝：訴願委員應該是有一個pool在那裡。"],["涂委員權吉：是不是經濟部聘的？"],["郭部長智輝：它是經濟部的訴願委員會，當然是經濟部聘的，但是經濟部不能夠要求它要做什麼決定。"],["涂委員權吉：我希望經濟部的訴願委員不要像大法官一樣讓人很害怕，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：我想他們都是公正、公益人士啦！"],["主席：請葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","請馬文君委員、馬文君委員，馬文君委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","請羅明才委員、羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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您好,我們請部長。請郭部長。委員好,部長好。部長,在前幾天AIT的Director谷麗妍,她有提到說半導體要使用綠能,那現在的台灣可能沒有辦法滿足這些需求。"},{"start":40.799,"end":61.928,"text":"那我想臺灣的半導體公司他必須要用綠能來達到R100的這個百分之百再生能源的這些需求那這樣子的這個我們說他們的concern他們擔憂的部分那臺積電他就我們所知他應該是全球第一個成為R100的半導體企業那根據國家再生能源評測中心裡面有統計臺積電購買的"},{"start":63.929,"end":82.055,"text":"指轉公平證的數量是89.5萬張但是它佔的總平證的交易大概是99%也就是說現在全台灣的綠電平證幾乎都是由台積電來去買下來另一個面向就是說其他業者對於綠電的需求政府可能可以提供的是遠遠不及"},{"start":83.413,"end":97.79,"text":"那我們現在我看卓院長昨天答覆委員的質詢的時候他是說我國在2030年底要達到綠電的供電比大概是要30%可是可能沒有辦法完成IEA的預期目標的一半"},{"start":98.783,"end":99.103,"text":"報告委員,我們現在為止的地熱"},{"start":125.825,"end":131.898,"text":"大部分都是比較淺層的探勘那我們現在應該有差不多"},{"start":137.761,"end":161.52,"text":"大屯火山群那邊我們大概有7M的淺層的但是台灣跟委員報告台灣大概淺層的地熱運償量大概只有1G但是深層的也就是說4000公尺到6000公尺的運償量大概有40個G這個40個G全部能開發出來我們現在台灣大概"},{"start":162.517,"end":162.557,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":184.338,"end":211.263,"text":"我們要臺灣自己本身能夠產出的這個能源是什麼就地熱、水力然後生殖能大概是這些所以我們現在非常努力的在這個地熱上面強化所以我除了中油公司以外我臺電公司自己本身也做那除了國營的這兩個大公司下去做以外因為這是它核心的技術其他的民間的業者我們也鼓勵他們來參與"},{"start":212.563,"end":237.678,"text":"所以現在開始了我相信會開啟一波在臺灣發展這個地熱的這個這樣的一個形式部長有什麼獎勵措施啊?剛才您提到說要請民間的這些民間現在因為我們可以看到全球在地熱上面有成就的這些公司包括在土耳其的包括在菲律賓包括在日本包括在這個義大利的這些都有"},{"start":238.398,"end":260.134,"text":"我們請他們來評估不過我們現在我個人是比較期待我們現在中油跟中央研究院的那個所謂的探勘的這個案子因為它是一個比較先進的研究案我們打一座井最怕的就打下去水上不來或者是油上不來"},{"start":260.851,"end":290.118,"text":"那我們現在中央科學院他們的這個技術就是我不用打到那麼深就可以知道會不會有這些熱源謝謝部長我還是在強調就是說現在基本上你說燃油燃氣的這些機組等等我看這個已經成為一個很大的爭點但是我們也是必須思考說再生能源確實是一個是戰略的方向那也是所有重大企業不得不燃那已經是國際的都有這樣的需求是的"},{"start":290.658,"end":319.767,"text":"所以除了在風電之外、太陽能發電之外那種可以作為基載能源的地熱它可以穩定長時間供應、24小時供應的那不會因為氣候、不會因為地形、地貌來去做改變的這樣是對我台灣很重要所以我目前看到是只有宜蘭園山現在是在做地熱的探勘那我認為儘快就是把深層的我看8月至9月已經鑽到這個4千尺的地熱井"},{"start":320.307,"end":334.458,"text":"是,那我還是強調這是一個很重要的一個進度,我們盡量把它加深、加廣、加快,那跟其他國家的合作,再生能源裡面這可能是我們必須要思考的另一個方向,基載能源。是的,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1477,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時28分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，前幾天AIT的Director谷立言有提到，半導體要使用綠能，現在的臺灣可能沒有辦法滿足這些需求。臺灣的半導體公司必須要用綠能來達到RE100的100%再生能源需求，他們的concern、擔憂的部分，就我們所知，台積電應該是全球第一個成為RE100的半導體企業。根據國家再生能源憑證中心的統計，台積電購買的直轉供憑證數量約89.5萬張，占總體憑證交易的99%，也就是說，就是現在臺灣的綠電憑證幾乎都是由台積電買下來，另一個面向就是其他業者對於綠電的需求，政府所能提供的是遠遠不及。卓院長昨天答復委員的質詢時說，我國在2030年底要達到綠電的供電比大概是30%，可是可能沒有辦法完成IEA預期目標的一半。不管是風能、太陽能，我們當然是花費很多的心力在討論這一塊，但是在地熱的部分，就我們的資料顯示，它在整個再生能源的占比還不到1%，我們好像是入寶山而空回，沒有好好地去利用臺灣地熱的優勢。我想請教部長，現在關於地熱的探勘狀況是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，到目前為止我們對地熱大部分都是比較淺層的探勘，我們現在應該有差不多……"],["陳委員冠廷：宜蘭員山、大屯火山群那邊……"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概有7M淺層的。跟委員報告，臺灣淺層的地熱蘊藏量大概只有1GW，深層的、也就是4,000公尺到6,000公尺的蘊藏量大概有40GW，這40GW全部能開發出來，臺灣現在所用的量就是40GW，但因為是地熱，所以上來之後轉換成可以用的大概是8.5GW。"],["陳委員冠廷：8.5GW也是非常大的數字。"],["郭部長智輝：非常大，所以我們現在非常努力地做地熱的開發。我當部長以後，我檢視了一下我們自有的資源，也就是臺灣自己本身能夠產出的能源是什麼，就是地熱、水力和生質能，大概是這些，所以我們現在非常努力地強化地熱的部分，所以除了中油公司以外，台電公司自己本身也做。除了國營這兩個大公司下去做以外，因為這是他們的核心技術，我們也要鼓勵其他民間業者來參與。所以現在開始了，我相信會開啟一波在臺灣發展地熱的形式。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長有什麼獎勵措施？剛才您提到說要鼓勵民間業者。"],["郭部長智輝：現在我們看到全球在地熱上面有成就的這些公司，包括在土耳其的，包括在菲律賓、包括在日本、包括在義大利，這些都有，我們會邀請他們來評估，不過我個人是比較期待現在中油跟中央研究院探勘的案子，因為它是比較先進的研究案。我們打一座井最怕的就是打下去水上不來，或者是油上不來，現在中研院的技術不用打到那麼深，就可以知道會不會有這些熱源。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我還是再強調，基本上燃油燃氣的機組等等已經成為很大的爭點，但是我們也必須思考再生能源確實是一個戰略的方向，也是所有重大企業不得不然，國際都有這樣的需求。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以除了在風電及太陽能發電之外，這種可以作為基載能源的地熱可以穩定、長時間24小時供應，不會因為氣候、地形、地貌而改變，所以對臺灣很重要。我目前看到只有宜蘭員山在做地熱的探勘……"],["郭部長智輝：第一座。"],["陳委員冠廷：我希望要儘快把深層的部分……我看8月至9月已經鑽到4,000呎的地熱井嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我還是強調這是很重要的進度，我們要儘量把它加深、加廣、加快。另外，跟其他國家的合作，再生能源裡面，這可能是我們對基載能源必須要思考的另一個方向。謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（13時34分）","繼續開會（13時39分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T11:00:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T11:09:50+08:00","duration":573,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.384718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.294718750000001,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.38596875,"end":24.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.44909375,"end":47.955968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.69846875,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.58409375000001,"end":93.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.92346875000001,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.09471875,"end":135.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.48659375,"end":137.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.55409375000002,"end":135.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.00534375,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.63784375,"end":172.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.20284375,"end":143.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.83909375000002,"end":176.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.18034375000002,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.07659375,"end":197.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.99159375000002,"end":204.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.79659375,"end":206.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.88471875000002,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.56784375,"end":213.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.22971875000002,"end":221.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.83284375000002,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.22846875000002,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.63721875000002,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.67284375000003,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.02721875,"end":242.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.30534375000002,"end":257.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.35596875000002,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.92034375000003,"end":249.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.86846875000003,"end":258.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.75846875,"end":261.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.79221875,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.28971875,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.46659375,"end":271.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.66784375000003,"end":276.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.49034375,"end":275.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.30846875000003,"end":289.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.04221875,"end":279.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.33721875000003,"end":282.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.65721875,"end":286.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.07034375,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.31909375000004,"end":303.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.33159375,"end":291.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.60784375000003,"end":305.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.62034375,"end":333.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.94909375000003,"end":349.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.83284375,"end":350.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.01409375000003,"end":352.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.66784375000003,"end":379.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.92096875000004,"end":388.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.93221875,"end":389.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.15159375,"end":402.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.00596875,"end":404.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.37284375,"end":413.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.28284375000004,"end":444.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.24409375000005,"end":485.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.17034375000003,"end":489.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.45221875000004,"end":493.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.89471875000004,"end":561.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.0190937500001,"end":567.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.87471875,"end":568.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.2922187500001,"end":573.03846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.07,"end":3.893,"text":"質詢,部長請回。再來我們請張雅玲委員質詢。有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。有請部長跟館長。"},{"start":23.593,"end":44.71,"text":"財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。"},{"start":49.796,"end":77.851,"text":"今年應該是2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬。那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了。就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的。那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛。從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元。但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿到50萬,現在他直接砍一半。"},{"start":79.147,"end":92.902,"text":"所以如果說我們今天在講不義遺址他需要做一些保存他需要做一些推廣可是我們的金額不管是整體的補助經費就是下降案件也下降那到底要如何來去執行呢我想請教就是說"},{"start":94.082,"end":121.935,"text":"我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費回到當年的水準呢"},{"start":122.375,"end":150.864,"text":"不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚我們有一個促轉基金我們可以從那邊我看一下促轉基金的費用那那個地方如果加上這個就不少其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作"},{"start":151.244,"end":169.068,"text":"而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢?"},{"start":178.206,"end":178.866,"text":"但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦?"},{"start":198.032,"end":222.029,"text":"那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工項但是放在交易推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的交易推廣沒有增加我看2025年是1100萬啊我是說總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算對是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛那個是總體預算的調整啦對"},{"start":224.936,"end":237.507,"text":"我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望我們可以來做個時間好好討論因為就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權預算因為人權管2021年是4億9千萬"},{"start":240.648,"end":261.999,"text":"總體的預算上的確是會有不同的...對,所以我想要...因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望...所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去...對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望...拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎?"},{"start":263.493,"end":270.731,"text":"我跟委員講,就這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好"},{"start":271.698,"end":271.778,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":296.938,"end":303.255,"text":"我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說"},{"start":304.656,"end":333.24,"text":"我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有一個106處未來可能還會增加嘛我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉"},{"start":335.037,"end":350.69,"text":"水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧"},{"start":353.209,"end":379.146,"text":"再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有"},{"start":380.006,"end":402.149,"text":"而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面?"},{"start":403.27,"end":431.558,"text":"這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論像蘇汝貞這個牆像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論好謝謝喔謝謝因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦那再來就是說原住民的部分齁那其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽那剛剛前面也有委員提到除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害其實是廣泛於在各個族群那原住民其實也是相當的"},{"start":432.858,"end":443.179,"text":"一群受到迫害的族群當年國家安全館也做了一個相關的主題展但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例"},{"start":445.287,"end":465.773,"text":"但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。"},{"start":465.973,"end":470.675,"text":"檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查"},{"start":494.628,"end":519.144,"text":"都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款"},{"start":519.724,"end":546.806,"text":"尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史"},{"start":548.266,"end":567.351,"text":"韓國民主社會是我們最重要的一個生活價值也是我們所有人認同的一個最大工業數所以希望透過不義遺址的這個工作呢可以讓這些歷史跟價值真正的存活在我們每一個人心中謝謝部長支持 謝謝謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時）有請部長跟人權館館長。"],["主席：有請部長跟館長。"],["李部長遠：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。其實我過去在民間也參與非常多轉型正義的一些導讀，我也曾經申請過人權館的補助，我今天就想要針對人權館的補助先來做一個請教。我們可以看到人權館的補助，跟2021年相比，我們的預算整整少了將近八百萬，今（2024）年跟2021年相比，整整少了八百萬，我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多的，變成案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的。我自己也看了，其實這些得到補助案的類型非常的廣泛，從戲劇類到展覽類非常多元，但是我也有聽到團體跟我說，過去它可以拿到50萬，現在直接砍一半。所以如果我們今天在講不義遺址，它需要做一些保存，它需要做一些推廣，可是我們的金額，不管是整體的補助經費下降，案件平均補助也下降，這樣到底要如何去執行呢？我想請教，我們現在如果去看人權館的整體預算，其實拿2025年跟2021年相比，也整整少了七千多萬，但是今年明明文化部是增加了17%的預算，為什麼人權館反而少了這麼多預算？第一個問題，我想請教部長，可不可以來支持我們的人權館，增加它的預算？第二個，是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費，回到當年的水準呢？不然，你看越來越多案子，可是大家拿的錢越來越少，今天如果我們要做戲劇、音樂類的，它到底要怎麼執行？部長，我想你也非常清楚。"],["李部長遠：我們有一個促轉基金，我們可以從那邊……"],["張委員雅琳：我看一下促轉基金的費用，其實……"],["李部長遠：那個地方如果加上這個就不少。"],["張委員雅琳：其實促轉基金只有申請2,400萬，但是我要講的是說，如果我們當時的預算可以去支應，為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作，而不是用促轉基金再去強化其他工作？像我們現在在講促轉基金，你們拿去做安康接待室的保存活化，對，這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目，所以拿促轉基金的錢來做，可是如果我們原本的預算，當年你就可以做到1,900萬的補助經費的話，為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢？還是請次長來回答呢？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們其實是希望儘量用促轉基金的費用來做，這樣本預算的基金可以再去做其他人權保存的工作，所以我們在這個預算的配置上，其實我們反而是朝向促轉基金來做申請，來做這些推廣跟保存，所以總體上是增加的。"],["張委員雅琳：但問題是總體上人權館的預算還是下降啦！既然我們今天要做不義遺址的保存，有更多處要去進行的話，有這麼多工項……"],["王次長時思：但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。"],["張委員雅琳：教育推廣沒有增加啊！我看2025年是1,100萬啊！"],["王次長時思：我是說總的，加上基金申請之後，全部放在這裡的預算。"],["張委員雅琳：對，是加上基金申請之後嘛，可是國家人權館的總體預算還是降了七千多萬，就算你加回去促轉基金，還是不到2021年的標準嘛！"],["王次長時思：那個是總體預算的調整啦！"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得這個問題，因為我時間很有限啦，但是我是希望我們可以有個時間好好討論，因為就算加上促轉基金2,400萬，你還是沒有回到2021年國家人權館的預算。因為人權館2021年是4億9,000萬。"],["王次長時思：總體的預算上的確是會有不同……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我們工作越來越多項嘛，怎麼我們的經費是越來越少？而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的，所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題。"],["王次長時思：對，我們是希望爭取增加人權館的預算和人員。"],["張委員雅琳：因為如果國家人權館是我們要做這些相關的一個主要的單位的話，這個預算不能少啊！不然像我今年去……"],["王次長時思：我們希望可以爭取，沒有錯。"],["張委員雅琳：對，拜託請部長支持好嗎？部長可以支持嗎？"],["李部長遠：我跟委員講，這個預算雖然不高，可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影，講的是白色恐怖也好，那個電影的影響力有多大。最近我們……"],["張委員雅琳：當然啊……"],["李部長遠：所以我們最近就有兩部……"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分我也想要拜託部長繼續來支持我們相關的電影……"],["李部長遠：對，它的費用非常……"],["張委員雅琳：因為我有聽到一些團體跟我反映，說爭取預算有點辛苦啦，所以部長剛剛有講……"],["李部長遠：沒問題，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：會支持，那就拜託請繼續支持。"],["李部長遠：會。"],["張委員雅琳：回到人權館的預算，我希望是可以繼續來支持啦，好不好？這個我們可以詳細來討論，因為我知道就算加上促轉基金，我們的錢還是比當年要來得下降。","再來，回到這個版本上面，現在不義遺址在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到，建立個案資料和保存、活化、輔導的一些機制是有讓民團來參與的。但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話，現在全臺灣是有106處，未來可能還會增加，我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力去執行。所以這個部分我就參考了水下文化資產保存法，它其實有提到，主管機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動，所以在條文的設計上面，我們可以把民間的力量來納入，希望部長也可以來支持我的版本，這個部分可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，我們就一起來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，其實不義遺址的定義今天大家也有講，我們是不是可以更擴大？因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地，但是這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛，像「施儒珍之牆」，這個人當年為了要躲避政府的追緝，他砌了這個空間把他自己關起來，關了十幾年，所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有去擴大解釋的話，這樣我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解法律要有操作型的定義，所以這部分，我們是不是也可以跟文化部一起來集思廣益，是否現在的定義過於僵化呢？是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面？部長，您的想法？"],["李部長遠：可以一起來討論，像施儒珍這個牆這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是？我想我們都可以在法案審查的時候列入一起來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝，因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間。","再來就是原住民的部分，之前人權館也做了相關的展覽，剛剛前面也有委員提到，除了這個是轉型正義，其實威權國家對於人權的迫害是廣泛於各個族群，原住民也是相當遭到迫害的一個族群，當年國家人權館也做了一個相關的主題展。在我們政院的草案，審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例，但是，如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條，裡面就有規定，在處理原住民這些相關文化資產的時候，都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與，而這一版，我也是希望到時候在版本上面，部長是不是可以一起來支持我的版本，如何讓原住民可以納入？尤其是我們現在106處的不義遺址，都是在花蓮跟綠島這些地方，其實不是原住民主要的生活區域，像鄒族的地方或是大豹社樂信．瓦旦的地方，我覺得都是蠻需要一起被納入的，這部分部長可以一起來支持嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒有問題，我們在法案審查的時候，把它列進去討論。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長今天對我的懇求都非常的支持。最後一件事情，在106處不義遺址中，其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍，所以法律上它屬於私法人，例如開南商工或者是二二八所屬的地方──淡水中學，但是以現在條文的設計，除非它提出申請，不然我們很難去要求它保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史，但是私法人其實拿了非常多政府的一些補助款，尤其是學校，在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任，所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下，在私法人這些私立學校的不義遺址，我們可不可以一起來做一些擴大的空間，然後讓這些東西可以被納入？因為我認為轉型正義對於臺灣是一個非常、非常重要的工作，也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本，因為它所存在的歷史，就是臺灣一個民主化的過程以及它的價值，不應該不被討論，民主社會是我們最重要的一個生活價值，也是我們所有人認同的一個最大公約數。所以希望透過不義遺址的這個工作，可以讓這些歷史跟價值真正的存活在我們每一個人心中，謝謝部長支持，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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Eats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題那雖然它一來門檻低再來是非常的透明連那個人到哪裡了多少錢都非常清清楚楚的那你們這個你們發展署的人力還有這個經費其實都是非常充裕的而且在勞動部裡面都還有統計處還有這個勞動及職業安全衛生研究所也有這個勞動市場研究組"},{"start":491.701,"end":506.926,"text":"那為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢?而是就是說去捨禁求援甚至說要多花錢多花錢去指定外面的教授來做針對你們想要的答案做研究"},{"start":510.632,"end":536.227,"text":"這個齁,我這樣提醒是,署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是由我剛剛講的那個狀況還是我亂講的。我也非常謝謝委員,我覺得我們這個應該跟穩的方向是一致,依照這個方向來說。而且你們以後好好就近利用一下這個研究所嘛,他們在那裡應該敞開大門等你們來啊。對,我們就跟他們一起合作。"},{"start":536.907,"end":563.859,"text":"接下來就是我要請部長上來因為上個禮拜老研所發布了一個近鄰檢探的報告那重點就是明年2025年的時候因為這個近鄰政策可能造成上萬人的失業環境部非常積極馬上就增加他們說會增加兩萬多的人次的就業機會"},{"start":565.84,"end":591.792,"text":"就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平台就是彭部長他特別表示說會透過綠領平台來推動就業那我想要請教何部長那個彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎您有沒有清楚說這個平台的內容是什麼因為看起來有點像是媒合就業你覺得可行性如何"},{"start":593.789,"end":621.647,"text":"我們在發布報告之後彭部長有找我討論當然我們通過電話我也指派我的長賜跟環境部對口那我們是先環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平台所以他發布之後你們才聚在一起是,也沒有聚在一起電話討論至少有聚在一起了那如果說我們真的但你覺得可行嗎"},{"start":623.168,"end":635.994,"text":"當然如果就綠領喔,綠領的形態的工作相信環境部會比我們清楚太多啦所以由他們來整合這一個部分的就是針對勞工轉型啦他針對綠領的訓練啦看起來是一個好像還蠻不錯的一個創意是是是是"},{"start":644.898,"end":665.572,"text":"如果說未來真的可以透過這樣的平台可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的那你們未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理委員他有沒有下到職類媒合這我也不了解也不是不了解我還不確定因為他才剛開始開過第一次平台會議而已"},{"start":666.833,"end":684.834,"text":"好,我想我同意部長的感覺因為我們也是從不是很清楚知道這個平台要做什麼到不知道這個平台能發揮多少的效益"},{"start":686.575,"end":710.681,"text":"我就是有點擔心啦因為第一光是有這個需要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平台其實就是一個大工程了至少就說你們開過一次會大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念喔那而且就算真的沒合到合適的職缺那接下來喔勞動權益的保障也不是彭啟明環境部部長他可以負責的"},{"start":712.128,"end":736.73,"text":"好所以我就講到這樣這個應該很明顯吧勞動權益因為他創了這個所以才是三部會的平台對所以總而言之好缺工的問題他是需要跨部會一起來整合來合作那發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題當然當然那所以讓民眾了解"},{"start":738.131,"end":738.311,"text":"我相信就是說﹖"},{"start":753.934,"end":753.954,"text":"陳瑩委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1334,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動力發展署蔡署長跟統計處梅處長。"],["主席：請署長跟梅處長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好，今天我們就我國全時職位缺工概況來進行討論，我想要先請教一下梅處長，勞動參與率是不是一項衡量缺工的指標？"],["梅處長家瑗：不是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你認為不是，其實這樣講也沒錯啦！勞動參與率它是有區隔不同年齡層的，請問我們25到29歲的參與率大概是多少百分比？"],["梅處長家瑗：不好意思，我……"],["陳委員瑩：其實我們已經幫忙整理出來了，就是91.4%。"],["梅處長家瑗：對。"],["陳委員瑩：梅處長，我再請教關於勞動參與率的定義，你們的分母是什麼、分子是什麼，可不可以跟大家講一下？"],["梅處長家瑗：勞動參與率的分母就是15歲以上的民間人口，分子就是勞動力。"],["陳委員瑩：好，在分母的部分，學生有沒有算進去？"],["梅處長家瑗：有，他就是15歲以上的民間人口。"],["陳委員瑩：學生有算進去，那打工的學生也算在裡面嘛！"],["梅處長家瑗：對。"],["陳委員瑩：都有算？你確定喔！"],["梅處長家瑗：對。"],["陳委員瑩：但是你們的資料看起來好像是沒有算進去啊！"],["梅處長家瑗：分母有算進去……"],["陳委員瑩：分母有算進去？"],["梅處長家瑗：分子就是看他有沒有……"],["陳委員瑩：我知道，就是看他有沒有打工嘛！"],["梅處長家瑗：對。"],["陳委員瑩：處長，你覺得這20年來勞參率的變化很大嗎？"],["梅處長家瑗：其實勞參率近年都是在上升，雖然整體的……對，都在上升。"],["陳委員瑩：但我是問你變化大不大？"],["梅處長家瑗：就比例來看應該還好。"],["陳委員瑩：我們也幫大家統計了，從93年到112年的統計也差不多2個百分點而已。謝謝，那你請回座。你第一次來備詢是不是？下次表情可以柔和一點，不用那麼緊張。","署長，勞動參與率高並不代表就不會缺工，但是參與率低，對於像我們臺灣這樣子經濟持續成長的國家而言，就非常有可能會缺工，這樣你是同意的吧！"],["蔡署長孟良：同意。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我要提醒你們一點，缺工有沒有行職業的差異？有沒有季節性的差異？從勞動參與率的數字能告訴大家嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為勞參率只是一個勞動力供給的數據，但是缺工有時候是產生在需求的改變，因為很多產業的屬性不同，其實它跟勞參率有時候沒有必然的關聯。比如說像製造業，確實有些因為我們以出口為導向，有時候外貿會有一些季節性的訂單因素，這個都會有影響。"],["陳委員瑩：對，沒錯，所以這個透過勞參率是沒有辦法告訴我們的啦！"],["蔡署長孟良：對，沒有辦法。"],["陳委員瑩：本席還要再問，發展署目前的主要作為是在解決國內勞動參與率不高的問題，還是在解決各行各業缺工的問題，你覺得哪一個比較符合你們的職掌，還是哪一個比較困難？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，其實兩個都蠻困難的。以目前的分析，我們的勞參率現在主要是集中在青年勞參率、中高齡勞參率跟婦女勞參率，因為它影響的成因非常多，這部分我們也在努力。至於缺工，因為缺工又會涉及到整個產業的發展，未來整個產業能夠提供的一些條件、待遇，還有一些工作型態，比如現在外界也在關心是不是透過一些自動化等等，而這個又跟產業的主管機關有關，我們……"],["陳委員瑩：你這樣講都沒錯啦，甚至參與率因為牽扯到生育率、勞動力人口多少的問題，你也沒有辦法去幫人家生孩子，所以這個又更困難。請問你們有沒有比較分析現在年輕人初就業的年齡是幾歲？相較於5年前或者是10年前，大概延遲了多少時間？還有不同學歷及科系之間的差異是不是很大？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為我們國內多年來還是以升學主義為主，所以大學畢業之後很多還是以升學為主，以我們目前的分析，大學22歲畢業以後，大部分可能沒有馬上積極性的尋職，確實會拖一段時間。我們也在努力針對初次尋職這個部分，我們儘量來協助。"],["陳委員瑩：現在發展署裡面有這樣的資料嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們有相關資料。"],["陳委員瑩：算齊全嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們目前有分析15到29歲初次尋職的這個年齡層，這部分是有的。第二個是他畢業之後到他找到第一份工作的間隔，我們也曾經……"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛有特別點到還有不同學歷、不同科系等等，這些你們可能還要再做更細部的研究調查，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好。"],["陳委員瑩：因為發展署裡面應該要有這些資料。","另外，年輕人剛出社會的時候起薪大概多少？這些資訊是不是應該要正確無誤以及非常即時地發布，就是說也要了解為什麼現在大家不想早一點去工作？當然早期一直鼓勵讀書是一個原因，我大概就點出這些，如果你們對於缺工的行職業、職缺、地區、工作內容及起薪都沒有掌握清楚的話，你們自然就沒有辦法去引導勞動力的移動，也沒有辦法健全我們的勞動市場，所以關鍵在於資訊缺乏以及不透明造成問題的誤判，那我們就會落於一直用過去的方式想要解決現在跟未來的問題，例如現在Uber Eats就好像沒有什麼缺工的問題，一來它的門檻低，再來是非常的透明，連那個人到哪裡了、多少錢都是非常清楚的。","其實發展署的人力和經費都是非常充裕的，而且在勞動部裡面還有統計處、勞動及職業安全衛生研究所，也有勞動市場研究組，為什麼你們不聯合這些單位一起來合作呢？為什麼要捨近求遠，甚至多花錢去指定外面的教授針對你們想要的答案做研究？針對我這樣的提醒，署長你可以回頭去盤點一下是不是有我剛剛講的那個狀況，還是我亂講的？你可以印證一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：非常謝謝委員，我覺得我們跟委員的方向應該是一致的，我們會依照這個方向來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：你們以後應該好好就近利用一下研究所，他們應該在那裡敞開大門等你們來啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：好，我們會跟他們一起合作。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來我要請部長上來了，因為上個禮拜勞研所發布了一個淨零減碳的報告，重點就是明年（2025年）因為這個淨零政策可能造成上萬人失業，環境部非常積極，他們說馬上會增加兩萬多人次的就業機會，所以就非常積極的弄了一個這樣子的平臺，彭部長特別表示會透過綠領平臺來推動就業。我想要請教何部長，彭部長有找你討論過這件事情嗎？您清不清楚這個平臺的內容是什麼？因為看起來有點像是媒合就業，你覺得可行性如何？"],["何部長佩珊：在發布報告之後，彭部長有找我討論，當然我們通過電話，我也指派常次跟環境部對口，就是環境部、勞動部、經濟部成立一個三部會的平臺。"],["陳委員瑩：所以他發布之後，你們才聚在一起？"],["何部長佩珊：是的，不過沒有聚在一起，而是電話討論。"],["陳委員瑩：至少有聚在一起了啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員瑩：但你覺得可行嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然如果就綠領型態的工作，相信環境部比我們清楚太多了，所以由他們來整合這部分的……就是針對勞工轉型，他們針對綠領的訓練……"],["陳委員瑩：看起來好像是一個還蠻不錯的創舉。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員瑩：如果未來透過這樣的平臺，真的可以達到特定職類就業媒合的目的，那麼未來其他的類別有沒有可能比照辦理？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，它有沒有下到職類媒合，這我也不了解……不是不了解，只是我還不確定，因為才剛開始開過第一次平臺會議而已，然後這個要做到哪裡，其實都還在規劃中。"],["陳委員瑩：我想我同意部長的感覺，因為我們也不是很清楚之後這個平臺要做什麼，也不知道這個平臺能發揮多少效益。我就是有點擔心，因為光是要讓人家知道而且會使用這個平臺，其實就是一個大工程了，雖然你們開過一次會，大家也還是有很多不清楚的概念。而且就算真的媒合到合適的職缺，接下來勞動權益的保障也不是環境部彭啓明部長可以負責的。我就講到這樣，這個應該很明顯把勞動權益……因為他創了這個媒合的平臺。"],["何部長佩珊：所以才是三部會的平臺啦！"],["陳委員瑩：總而言之，缺工的問題是需要跨部會一起來整合、來合作，發展署也不能說只靠引進外勞來解決問題。"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然。"],["陳委員瑩：所以讓民眾了解各行各業的職缺、各行各業所需要的能力及薪資待遇，必要的時候我們還要輔以職業訓練，甚至薪資的補助，我相信勞動部如果可以做到這個樣子，有什麼樣的方法或是什麼平臺，或是什麼樣的網站也好，我想勞動部一定會受到大家的肯定。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我們也很希望所有的資訊都像Uber Eats這麼公開透明，大家一目了然，找工作也比較方便，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","今天的會議詢答全部結束，委員吳春城、委員涂權吉所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員吳春城書面質詢：","1.根據國發會推估資料，台灣的人力缺口在2030年預估大約40萬，雖積極開發青年、二度就業婦女、中高齡及高齡者等勞動力。但面對工作年齡人口逐年減少趨勢下，缺工問題無法僅依賴擴大勞動力供給解決，而主管機關送案申請放寬新行業別使用移工，幾乎也都是照案核准，勞動部長何佩珊10月16日在立院備詢時就表示，「只要主管機關提案，就會儘量鬆綁」。應對缺工的解決手段又走回只靠引進外籍移工的老路，但台灣薪資的吸引力能夠贏過其他國家嗎？若薪資吸引力不足，移工來的人數越來越少，或素質越來越差，勞動部還能做甚麼？","2.缺工將持續成為台灣的問題。要解決缺工問題有三條路可走：","●產業轉型提升獲利與工資，吸引國內外人才","●使用AI／機器人取代部分人力","●善用壯世代勞動力","但現行狀況下，「強制退休」及「繼續聘僱」之主導權均係由雇主掌控，部分有需要或有意願繼續工作之高齡勞工恐被迫接受減薪或其他不公平待遇，致須面對更不穩定之職場環境。只要雇主不同意，壯世代員工還是得退休。勞資雙方退休協商機制及配套措施何時能提出？勞動部提出的退休協商機制能符合勞資平等原則嗎？當雇主對勞方的延後退休拒絕時，勞動部能要求雇主提出理由嗎？"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","一、勞動部勞發署業務委為派遣人員薪資三年凍漲","●民國113年10月16日本席質詢揭露，勞發署業務委外派遣人員薪資沒有跟著最低工資調升的問題，當時何佩珊部長回覆表示，這些派遣人員會等到明年公務人員加薪3%才會跟著加薪。","●本席質疑，部長的說法不就印證，連勞動部勞發署僱用且適用勞基法派遣人員，都不會因為最低工資調漲而被帶動調漲薪資。那麼政府也會僱用適用勞基法的勞工，政府做為雇主不調薪卻把企業加薪責任推給公務人員加薪3%才調升，試問：政府有起到帶頭的責任？長此以往，民間企業也可以推給政府，公務人員不加薪所以企業不加薪？政府不能以身作則，如何擺脫低薪台灣的惡名？","二、外包派遣人員簽定期契約？勞發署帶頭違法？","●承上，就本席發現，這些職缺契約時間都是開到當年的年底，照勞基法規範，派遣勞動工作不得簽訂定期契約，且只有工作業務本身具有臨時性、短期性的特性，也就是所謂「非繼續性工作」，勞僱雙方才能簽訂定期契約。另外，按照「行政院勞工委員會民國89年3月31日（89）台勞資二字第0011362號書函」所釋，渠等經濟活動乃雇主有意持續維持之經濟活動，非臨時、突發之相關職務工作需要之人力。實務上來說，勞動部會徵聘一些職務代理人，那是因為員工因為懷孕生產才開出的職缺，或是農忙時農場的短期工，否則只要該業務雇主要繼續下去，就應該跟勞工簽訂不定期契約。否則只要該業務雇主要繼續下去，就應該跟勞工簽訂不定期契約。","●因此，今天本席所列這些勞發署委外職缺，不應該開徵定期契約之職務，政府不可帶頭做違法的事情，建請勞動部去深入瞭解，於一個月內給本席一個調查報告。","三、勞保撥補法制化","●勞保年金破產的危機持續擴大，但在勞動部努力之下，明年度將撥補1,300億元，總計6年撥補預算金額達3,870億元。既然撥補已經常態化，加上朝野立委不分藍綠，都有委員提案將撥補法制化，請問勞動部是否支持撥補法制化？政院何時會有院版的撥補法案？","●但，按近日立法院、行政院為禁伐補償所產生之僵局，會不會發生法案通過，但政院不願意編列預算的狀況發生？何佩珊部長可以在此用烏紗帽保證僵局不再重演？保證禁伐補償的翻版不會發生？"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，星期四上午9點繼續開會。","休息（13時38分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adeca2389c3649bd9d23b480ede9050f16a01f23eb7619bd4023f3c00194d6c03235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:14:13 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主席請到何部長請何部長"},{"start":17.526,"end":46.438,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們今天討論全時職缺缺工的問題所以有一個問題我想要先先釐清一下就是我看我們最低工資呢長期以來就是時薪高於月薪是那有沒有辦法把月薪提高到到到時薪的的總和怎麼算呢就是就是時薪乘以8再乘以"},{"start":47.839,"end":65.277,"text":"22天來當作最低工資因為我覺得這個問題不解決全職的職缺缺工不會改善因為我用part-time領的錢"},{"start":68.015,"end":95.002,"text":"一樣的工時是比最低工資高的 這個可能很多人會不願意投入全職的職缺 這個部長有什麼看法?是 非常同意委員的提醒 這也是我們最低工資審議委員我們今年有很熱烈的討論這個問題 那沒有成功的原因是什麼?你們假如很熱烈討論"},{"start":97.924,"end":123.036,"text":"因為明年都已經公佈了嗎?還是有一定的差距嗎?倒是我們現在再慢慢把它拉齊啦。你這樣明年可能要差到4千7百多。是。就是因為我們今年的幅度我們就把它拉到跟那個甚至稍低一點。比那個月薪的條幅稍低一點。我們再來慢慢的會拉齊這兩邊。不是。"},{"start":127.947,"end":139.238,"text":"剛剛劉建國委員也提到就是求職者不願意倒職的因素裡面有超過60%是對待遇有意見"},{"start":144.358,"end":170.399,"text":"為什麼是把時薪的條幅拉低而不是把月薪的條幅拉高部長剛剛講的是你們討論的時候想要讓他趨近接近嘛那有兩個方法你們為什麼會選擇拉低時薪的條幅而不是拉高月薪的條幅"},{"start":174.054,"end":183.523,"text":"這個就是光是部長這樣子回答就表示臺灣的要脫離地心的環境非常非常的困難"},{"start":185.23,"end":212.498,"text":"不是委員這可能我要再解釋更清楚一點這個是我們整體會去調高最低工資會逐漸的往上走的一定都是往上調可是呢月薪的部分他能不能一次就去拉超過這麼高這是一個最低工資審議委員會必須討論的問題也不是我能決定的這個要整個大家有共識才行啦"},{"start":212.938,"end":239.38,"text":"而他條：如果是那個幅度一下子太高喔整個社會能不能承受也是問題對企業主可能沒有辦法承受這個我可以接受我現在是說為什麼審議委員會有意識到全職的最低工資跟時薪是有差距的那在審議的時候"},{"start":241.221,"end":261.338,"text":"是把時薪的條幅降低而不是把全薪的條幅拉高懂我意思嗎?因為這個是部長剛剛回答的喔是是是委員我剛剛要再跟您補充你聊口誤你就說口誤沒有關係我是可以接受的"},{"start":262.158,"end":272.083,"text":"當然啦我實習那個部分的條幅其實是去掉尾數啦他倒並不是說我刻意去把它降低啦因為台灣的薪資確實是"},{"start":278.366,"end":294.14,"text":"是偏低啦。也因為偏低所以才我們今天才討論這個問題啦。是是是。按照勞動部最新的調查就是到今年7月底全國缺工長達半年找不到職缺的有6.6萬。是。"},{"start":298.732,"end":320.26,"text":"按照行業別,長達半年找不到的依序有製造業、批發業、批發零售業、營建、旅宿業、社會工作服務業。請問部長,上述業別增才半年沒有辦法補足的主要原因是什麼?"},{"start":322.028,"end":341.871,"text":"嗯對其實當然他這也是超過半年啦齁超過半年都一直沒有辦法待遇跟勞動條件都是原因啦一定都是主要原因好那對所以您去看齁那我就直接問那你你們到底有沒有解決的方案"},{"start":343.921,"end":364.143,"text":"我看部長在回答原因的時候速度很快那你們有沒有因應的方案?懂我意思嗎?因為你們肩負著全國勞工的工作環境工作條件等等的照顧這是勞動部成立最大的宗旨"},{"start":365.044,"end":377.271,"text":"包括職業訓練讓他在職場上可以一直精進讓他取得更好的薪資這個都是你們的工作那原因你知道你有沒有因應的方案"},{"start":380.401,"end":397.825,"text":"對我因應的方案當然委員就是我現在最大的困難我想是我們會發生在產業端這邊對所以我們必須要有效的跨部會整合然後看能不能把這個我們比如我們現在主動在做學校部長我的理解我這樣子講就是說產業界那邊應該要比較顧慮的是經濟部"},{"start":406.219,"end":427.035,"text":"是經濟部那我現在是說你站在勞動部的立場你怎麼因應長期缺工然後低薪的現象因為跨部會整合就是這樣子嘛勞動部有勞動部維護勞工權益的政策方向"},{"start":428.137,"end":433.424,"text":"那經濟部有經濟部扶植並且確保產業持續發展的"},{"start":439.827,"end":464.366,"text":"的責任那兩個部會再去做溝通整合出來一個讓企業可以永續發展讓勞工的薪資可以提高讓勞工的就業市場就業環境工作環境就業市場可以更好的政策我現在是問你你們有沒有這一方面的政策"},{"start":465.47,"end":473.575,"text":"是我們就是當然我們比如我們訓練人我們執訓人你們執訓人你們部長你知道參加政府辦理的執訓的參與人數也逐年在下降你知道嗎"},{"start":483.22,"end":496.153,"text":"是沒錯。那個疫情期間下降蠻多的。疫情過了這一兩年跟疫情前有回升嗎?有回升到疫情前嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":500.629,"end":516.426,"text":"好跟委員報告我們現在因為疫情我這個就已經跳過好多題了是是是跟委員報告我們現在職業訓練現在就是說對於這個重點產業跟部位跟地方我們在合作現在訓練其實每年逐年在增加一直在增加"},{"start":517.166,"end":534.493,"text":"第2個就是剛剛委員提到就是說我們對於那個很多這個長期缺工這一個部分我們其實現在在應對這樣的一個議題上其實我們就是為他們也現在有做一些量身的訂做就是一些專案的一些沒有的機制那針對他的一個條件上我們也提供相關的 署長時間的關係我問一個問題這個訓練增加"},{"start":540.211,"end":566.719,"text":"來接受質詢的人增加到底對於投入就業市場之間有沒有成正比?懂我意思嗎?你們會去做後續的追蹤嗎?跟委員報告,我們追蹤有三個指標,第一個就訊漏就業率第二個是關聯性,第三個是他的薪資條件有沒有提升,這三個我們大概都會有相關的評估"},{"start":567.915,"end":595.696,"text":"那我現在是問有沒有效果啊你這三個指標倒是下的不錯啦只是說到底來訓練跟他的就業之間有沒有正面的提升啊委員報告這個我們其實在訓後就業率其實每年都有在提升有在成長那這部分其實我們也可以提供給委員參考訓後就業率有在成長那署長"},{"start":597.197,"end":604.082,"text":"應該也要去關心看看就是就業了以後有沒有因為參加勞動部的質詢薪資獲得滿足啦好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時14分）謝謝主席，請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，我們今天討論全時職位缺工的問題，所以我想要先釐清一個問題，長期以來我們的最低工資就是時薪高於月薪，有沒有辦法把月薪提高到時薪的總和？怎麼算呢？就是把時薪乘以8再乘以22天作為最低工資。我覺得這個問題不解決的話，全職職位缺工的問題不會改善，因為一樣工時擔任part time領的錢會高於全職的工資，導致很多人不願意投入全職的職缺。部長，對這點有什麼看法？"],["何部長佩珊：是，非常同意委員的提醒，其實這也是今年我們最低工資審議委員熱烈討論的問題，所以我們今年……"],["楊委員曜：假如你們很熱烈的討論，沒有成功的原因是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：不是沒有成功，委員，時薪……"],["楊委員曜：因為明年的已經公布了，還是有一定的差距嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：我們正慢慢的把它拉齊啦！我們希望……"],["楊委員曜：你知道明年可能要差到四千七百多？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們今年的幅度就是把它拉到稍低一點、比月薪的調幅稍低一點，再來會慢慢的將兩邊拉齊。"],["楊委員曜：不是，剛剛劉建國委員也提到，求職者不願意到職的因素中有超過60%是對待遇有意見，為什麼是把時薪的調幅拉低，而不是把月薪的調幅拉高？部長，剛剛你說你們在討論時是想讓兩者趨於接近，但是在兩個方法中為什麼你們會選擇拉低時薪的調幅，而不是拉高月薪的調幅，光是部長這樣的回答就表示臺灣要脫離低薪環境仍然非常非常的困難。"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，我可能要再解釋得更清楚一點。"],["楊委員曜：好。"],["何部長佩珊：我們整體的最低工資會逐漸的往上調、一定都是往上調，但是月薪的部分能不能一次就拉超過這麼高，這是最低工資審議委員會必須討論的問題，也不是我能決定的，這個必須要大家整個都有共識才行。如果幅度真的一下調整太高，整個社會能不能承受也是問題。"],["楊委員曜：企業主可能沒辦法承受，這點我可以接受，但我現在要問，為什麼審議委員會意識到全職的最低工資與時薪是有差距，在審議時卻是把時薪的調幅降低，而不是把全薪的調幅拉高？懂我的意思嗎？因為這個是部長剛剛回答的喔！"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，我要再向你做個補充……"],["楊委員曜：假如你是口誤就說口誤，沒有關係！我是可以接受的。"],["何部長佩珊：時薪那個部分的調幅其實是去掉尾數，並不是我們刻意去把它降低啦！"],["楊委員曜：因為臺灣的薪資確實是偏低啦！也因為偏低，今天我們才會討論這個問題。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員曜：按照勞動部最新的調查，到今年7月底，全國缺工長達半年找不到人的職缺有6.6萬。按照行業別，長達半年找不到員工的，依序是製造業、批發及零售業、營建、旅宿業及社會工作服務業。請問部長，上述業別徵才長達半年以上沒辦法補足的主要原因是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：其實當然……"],["楊委員曜：這裡是指超過半年都沒有辦法……"],["何部長佩珊：待遇與勞動條件都是原因，一定都是主要原因。"],["楊委員曜：我就直接問，你們到底有沒有解決的方案？我看部長在回答原因的時候速度很快，那你們有沒有因應的方案？懂我的意思嗎？因為你們肩負著全國勞工工作環境、工作條件等等的照顧，這是成立勞動部最大的宗旨，包括職業訓練，讓他在職場上可以一直精進，讓他取得更好的薪資，這些都是你們的工作，原因你已經知道，那你們有沒有因應的方案？"],["何部長佩珊：關於我們因應的方案，現在最大的困難我想是發生在產業端這邊，所以我們必須有效的跨部會整合，然後看能不能把……比如我們現在主動在做……"],["楊委員曜：就我的理解，產業界那邊比較要顧慮的應該是經濟部……"],["何部長佩珊：我也需要他們的……"],["楊委員曜：我現在是說站在勞動部的立場，你怎麼因應長期缺工以及低薪的現象？因為跨部會整合就是這樣子，勞動部有勞動部維護勞工權益的政策方向，經濟部有經濟部扶植並且確保產業持續發展的責任，兩個部會再去溝通，整合出來一個讓企業可以永續發展，讓勞工的薪資可以提高，讓勞工的工作環境、就業市場可以更好的政策，我現在是問你們有沒有這一方面的政策？"],["何部長佩珊：是，比如我們職訓的人，我們找人……"],["楊委員曜：關於你們的職訓，部長，你知道參加政府辦理職訓的參與人數也逐年在下降嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是沒錯，疫情期間下降蠻多的。"],["楊委員曜：不是啦，疫情過了之後這一兩年跟疫情前有回升嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有，有稍微回升。"],["楊委員曜：回升到疫情前嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：快接近了。"],["楊委員曜：有嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們現在因為疫情的原因有……"],["楊委員曜：這個就已經跳過好多題了啦！"],["蔡署長孟良：是，跟委員報告，針對職業訓練，現在就是對於重點產業，我們跟部會、跟地方在合作，現在訓量其實逐年一直在增加。第二個是剛剛委員提到很多產業長期缺工的部分，現在在應對這樣的議題上，其實我們也有為他們量身訂做，就是一些專案媒合的機制，針對他們的條件，我們也提供相關輔導。"],["楊委員曜：署長，因為時間的關係，我問你一個問題，就是說訓量增加，來接受職訓的人增加，到底對於投入就業市場之間有沒有成正比？懂我意思嗎？你們會去做後續的追蹤嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們追蹤有三個指標：第一個是訓後就業率，第二個是關聯性，第三個是他的薪資條件有沒有提升。這三個我們大概都會有相關的評估。"],["楊委員曜：我現在是問有沒有效果啊？你這三個指標倒是下得不錯，只是說來接受訓練跟他的就業之間到底有沒有正面的提升？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們的訓後就業率其實每年都有在提升、有在成長，這部分的資料我們也可以提供給委員參考。"],["楊委員曜：訓後就業率……"],["蔡署長孟良：訓後就業率有在成長。"],["楊委員曜：署長應該也要去關心看看他們就業了以後，有沒有因為參加勞動部的職訓而讓薪資獲得滿足，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：好。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員。接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156338","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156338","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade8804c3bd3d79851ab22eacfd31272a3d01f23eb7619bd402f8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"13:13:54 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基本上 很多的 很多的 很多的列別啦 才列別來講他也不見得有多低薪喔 甚至高薪的還蠻多的啦齁 包含 包含 包含 包含剛從大學畢業的"},{"start":111.173,"end":112.634,"text":"在台北市的服務業平均薪資也不能算低"},{"start":132.974,"end":156.169,"text":"如果僱主賦給這些服務業的對象基本上我的理解他也不算低當然有這個城鄉上的一個落差嘛所以我現在就是要讓部長瞭解到這個狀況那勞動部應該可以扮演更堅強的這個角色不過他還是會連動到相關的部會這個我們都清楚嘛那部長你可以看一下就是說這個是你們的報告嘛606案"},{"start":157.61,"end":185.169,"text":"6點6岸的職缺這個是超過半年補不到人的嘛對不對這是勞動部的資料綜合統計結果綜合的分析主計處剛剛部長有回應其他委員就是說他一個事業能力雇用調查的這個報告則是112年8月底工業及服務業的職缺數是在23.7萬然後他會叫同年的2月增加2.1萬因為他是8月2月8月這樣在計算"},{"start":187.43,"end":198.18,"text":"那或許這23.7萬的職缺就成了部長答覆的可能你們在統計的方式不太一樣他應該是不是就不是缺過這個缺超過6個月的啦您這個是組總的調查吧沒有組計總處下一張對他這個就是職缺調查"},{"start":209.504,"end":224.549,"text":"對這個是主計總署的調查沒有錯對嗎我說你們是半年你們的6.6萬是超過半年補不到人的嘛對不對那主計總署或許就是不是超過6個月的一個統計嘛對應該是這麼講他可能現在缺而已"},{"start":225.889,"end":240.337,"text":"現在缺而已但是你去年8月對照2月主計總署的統計一個表格是增加2.1萬這是主計處我不曉得你怎麼解讀這一個那部長你再看下一個數據"},{"start":242.519,"end":261.177,"text":"103一直到112這個是主計的資料他是每年就這樣公佈如果他公佈這個數據是有問題的那就很嚴重了因為105是民進黨開始執政那你看我們在105到109左右平均都在22萬以下"},{"start":263.339,"end":283.627,"text":"10月11年疫情的一些狀況有增加但是到了11年到112年我們還是維持在23萬以上不是以下這個我就要請教部長有沒有機會有沒有什麼做法有什麼精進的作為可以壓低回到105到109這個區間22萬左右有嗎"},{"start":288.269,"end":313.14,"text":"委員我想因為歷經3年的疫情啦他這個是有一個爆發式的經濟需求存在其實這個喔112年23.7那當然慢慢的也許他也有可能緩和下來啦這也是有可能的那可是你說我有沒有這個能耐把他要回到105年"},{"start":315.442,"end":331.533,"text":"我沒有用能耐兩個字來形容部長我是說有沒有想到用什麼樣的方法可以把他壓到22萬當然我們現在正是要努力但是如果部長要願意這樣努力達成這個目標但是你們今天報告又會被挑戰"},{"start":333.314,"end":355.922,"text":"你們的報告裡面寫這樣每年協助求職者就約50萬人其中在112年就協助服務部門僱用44.8萬包含住宿、餐飲13萬、批發及零售業11.3萬顯然這個老花署每年都有這樣成效但是你看那個缺工還是持續在惡化"},{"start":357.485,"end":382.942,"text":"報告裏面我勞動部報告裏面寫的也非常清楚就缺工缺工的原因以這個待遇不符合期望比率最高這部長剛才在答詢的過程裏面也一直提到那行政院總處也有這樣的一個資料就人力運用調查統計資料顯示失業者曾遇過工作機會曾遇有工作機會而未就業原因中以待遇不符合期望佔比最高62%其實什麼地點"},{"start":385.444,"end":398.423,"text":"對理想工作環境不良等等等比例還算是偏低嘛那我現在是現在就是說那勞動部在沒有這些工作的時候有沒有再去做這樣的一個統計他留在這個職場的時間有嗎"},{"start":402.519,"end":415.655,"text":"我請署長講好請署長跟委員報告我們一般就會追蹤至少三個月會持續做追蹤至少三個月以上對以下以下因為有些像兆福園這一部分我們甚至到一年"},{"start":417.598,"end":432.184,"text":"不同列比的追蹤的時間所以你這樣的統計數字有點奇怪我這邊有一個民間的統計數字你看一下他根據民間的統計大約約有25%到4%的先進員工他在半年內就離開了就離職了"},{"start":435.129,"end":461.272,"text":"這樣如果你套在你們老花鼠每年每盒50萬也就是說你們一旦每盒50萬不到三個月半年他就跑了就離子12.5萬到20萬左右嘛就半年內離子啦我們講半年內為一個週期來講這個是這個數據這樣推估如果統計起來等於老花鼠在做這些事情好像在做白工"},{"start":463.18,"end":463.821,"text":"臺灣就已經不是一個低薪的環境"},{"start":474.895,"end":493.362,"text":"他這個待遇不合期期望到底是雇主不願意去提高薪資還是還是還是從事這個職業的人他覺得這個薪資沒有達到他要的這個我們不曉得你們有沒有去做相關的一些調查"},{"start":495.558,"end":506.567,"text":"因為我覺得他是要細究的啦他絕對不是只有單純說平均薪資怎樣怎樣我們也要調了啊你看明年我們的明年最低的基本工資是28590塊嘛對不對時薪就來到190嘛其實你們都有在做嘛民進黨執政呢這這八九年已經提了提了九次了嘛"},{"start":515.194,"end":538.232,"text":"所以我是覺得說然後你再看喔你們報告就寫你6.6萬的缺工數與中階技術層次最多占59.7嘛對不對那同時較高層次占32高階技術占32.7排序在第二嘛然後你們有一個叫做後續強化精進做法"},{"start":539.953,"end":562.927,"text":"是要把喬外森拿來補嗎?喬外森就是中階人力對我剛才講的這兩個城鎮你要補中階人力是喬外森嗎?我沒有反對你拿喬外森來補不過這個有點奇怪喬外森本來是一個補充人力那你現在把他放在中階這一塊那喬外森就不會跟你講說心思不符合期望"},{"start":564.156,"end":582.595,"text":"他也會啊對啊我要跟您報告齁其實現在我們對僑外生的政策已經逐漸不是把他看成補充他是已經把他當人才啦我們甚至還要搭配國防會的修法攬財的專法的修法希望能夠把他銜接技術移民這樣問題又更嚴重了"},{"start":585.29,"end":614.693,"text":"對不對待遇不符期望那蕎麗生沒有這個問題有他有他也有這樣的問題啊他所有蕎麗生可能比例會比62%更高那你們怎麼處理待遇不符期望對啊對啊對啊對啊是這樣啦所以蕎麗生進來他會是做他這個台灣就是說我們現在看那個產業裡面他有需求的高就是說薪水有一定程度以上的而真的找不到人啊"},{"start":615.593,"end":637.558,"text":"這個才是我要開中階的目的嘛比如像我昨天在我在服務業的那個座談裡面測會繪圖的那種技術人員他的薪水可能比如說四五萬以上的可是你的腿他就找不到人而他是需要專業的那這一種我就是吸引我就是用這種中階橋外生來希望能讓他們來進入這裡這樣子啦"},{"start":642.399,"end":658.605,"text":"你這樣打呼我 我覺得怪怪的就台灣我們就自己找不到了你期待中階這一塊從橋外生找然後你又不擔心他們有這個待遇不符合期望的狀況就沒辦法衝突衝突了"},{"start":659.634,"end":676.367,"text":"我現在有個概念大家要弄清楚就是中階的是人力他不是for低薪行業的移工啦這是兩個是喔中階的人力他是真的要來補人力的不足而他是一定薪水以上的喔"},{"start":677.188,"end":698.786,"text":"啊,會有薪資門檻的。這就是為什麼旅宿的中階橋外生他還要限制薪資門檻3萬3以上你如果是在台灣的旅宿業喔都會低到2萬7、2萬8這樣子而已所以這個是中階人力是有薪資門檻以上要來補人力不足的"},{"start":703.044,"end":719.232,"text":"所以他不會去他也會向上提升薪水啦我的意思是這樣就我的理解現在不要說中階連低階的薪資門檻都有在提高如果說你對僑外生有中階的這個勞工需求的薪資門檻的這樣的一個設定那對國人怎麼又沒有"},{"start":729.264,"end":732.528,"text":"我們對國人也是那就是希望要提高薪資啊"},{"start":733.713,"end":762.555,"text":"對啊你你這邊講門檻這邊是提高薪資那個那個做法上就為什麼我們要限要要對中階有薪資門檻就是怕他拉低國人薪資啊所以我們才會有薪資門檻的限制因為他不是移工這就是為什麼我不開服務業移工的原因因為服務業移工太低嘛你一進來又不是不是我們要弄清楚一件事情你對你對喬艾森的中階的這個部分有一個門檻的提高對不對那你對國人的中階的部分有沒有做這樣處理沒有"},{"start":763.542,"end":785.389,"text":"國人的中階甚至都會更高啦因為國人本身在薪資水準上都是時間的關係啦我們再來對啦最後一個我再提醒我還是希望你那個精進的報告可能要再詳細一點好不好不然你那個老花鼠這麼辛苦真的我感覺好像都是在做白工什麼原因這麼快就離開這個職場"},{"start":788.11,"end":808.504,"text":"是不是只有單純的待遇不符合期望的62%我覺得這個是可以討論的空間啦我最後再提醒老花鼠好不好你們吼現在我們就全台在講缺工趙薇今天也排這個專案嘛吼那你看老花鼠在辦理工作崗位訓練有這個叫做先顧後訓然後每訓練一年每月有補助1.2萬喔"},{"start":811.046,"end":825.919,"text":"特定區域你又提高到每個月1.5萬我想這是一個好的政策啦力量善嘛你的網站怎麼又這樣特定缺工產業先顧後勸課程查詢馬上查詢兩則課程你又發他來啊bug"},{"start":836.161,"end":836.481,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1203,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時59分）謝謝召委。我就接續召委剛剛垂詢部長的題目，好不好？"],["主席：請何部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長剛剛答復黃召委時也提到，臺灣現在早已不是低薪的環境，既然勞動部知道這個狀況，那麼勞動部扮演改善這個情況的角色會著重在什麼地方？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因應缺工，我們在報告中提到要培訓國人及引進外籍等等，大致不會脫離這些方式，但我們也必須因應現在整個勞動型態的變化以及產業型態的變化，該如何與產業之間進一步的討論，怎麼樣的作法可以讓產業願意付出又能引進需要的勞動力，而且要搭配產業願意付出的薪水，這就是我們要在勞動力的供給端與需求端幫忙撮合的一個蠻艱鉅的工作。"],["劉委員建國：我還在消化部長這樣繞了一大圈又有點聽不太清楚的回答，其實我要強調的是，當然臺北已經不是一個低薪的環境，基本上，以很多產業的類別來講，它也不見得有多低薪，甚至還有蠻多的高薪，包含對大學剛畢業的求職者開出的薪水也是蠻高的，不過，各項類別可能還是要請勞動部去盤查，因為我們講的是比較著重在傳產業、服務業的情況。坦白講，其實臺北市的服務業平均薪資也不算低喔！雇主付給這些服務業員工的薪資，基本上，根據我的理解，其實並不算低，但是有城鄉上的落差，現在我就是要讓部長了解這個狀況，勞動部應該可以扮演更堅強的角色，不過它還是會連動到相關的部會，這個我們也都很清楚。部長，你可以看一下，這是你們的報告，顯示有6.6萬的職缺超過半年補不到人，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：這是勞動部的資料，綜合統計的結果、綜合的分析。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：根據主計總處的事業人力僱用狀況調查報告，截至112年8月底，工業及服務業的職缺數是23.7萬，因為是以2月及8月作為計算的月份，相較於同年的2月增加了2.1萬。或許這23.7萬個職缺，真的如部長剛剛的答復，可能是你們統計的方式不太一樣，它應該不是超過6個月的職缺。"],["何部長佩珊：你這個是主總的調查，對吧？"],["劉委員建國：主計總處。"],["何部長佩珊：對，它這個就是職缺調查。"],["劉委員建國：對，這是主計總處的調查，沒有錯。"],["何部長佩珊：對，是主總的調查。"],["劉委員建國：你們的6.6萬是指超過半年補不到人，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：主計總處這個數字或許是包含不超過6個月的統計，應該是這麼講吧！"],["何部長佩珊：對，它有可能是現在缺而已。"],["劉委員建國：現在缺而已？"],["何部長佩珊：它是流動的。"],["劉委員建國：但是以去年8月對照2月，主計總處統計的表格是增加了2.1萬，我不知道你要如何解讀這個數據。部長，你再看下一個數據，103年到112年，這個也是主計總處的資料，它是每年公布的，如果公布的這個數據有問題，那就很嚴重了！因為105年是民進黨開始執政，對不對？你看，從105年到109年左右，平均都是在22萬以下，110年因為疫情的一些狀況就開始增加，但是到了111年及112年，這個數字還是維持在23萬以上而不是以下。我想請教部長，有沒有機會、有沒有什麼做法、有什麼精進的作為，可以壓低回到105年至109年22萬左右的這個區間？有嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為歷經3年的疫情，它是有一個爆發式的經濟需求存在。其實112年的23.7萬也許可能慢慢地緩和下來，這也是有可能的，但是你說我有沒有這個能耐把它壓回到105年的狀況，這個……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有用「能耐」2個字來形容部長，而是說有沒有想到用什麼方法可以將它壓到22萬？"],["何部長佩珊：當然我們現在就是要努力、就是要努力。"],["劉委員建國：如果部長願意努力達成這個目標，但是你們今天的報告會受到挑戰，因為你們的報告寫著，每年協助求職者約50萬人，其中在112年協助服務部門僱用44.8萬人，包含住宿及餐飲業13萬人，批發及零售業11.3萬人。顯然勞發署每年都有這樣的成效，但你看缺工的狀況還是持續惡化。勞動部的報告也寫得非常清楚，缺工的原因以待遇不符合期望的比例最高，剛才部長在答詢的過程中也一直提到。而行政院主計總處也有這樣的資料，根據人力運用調查統計資料顯示，失業者曾遇有工作機會而未就業的原因中以待遇不符合期望占比最高達62%，其次是地點不理想、工作環境不良等等，比例還算是偏低。勞動部在媒合這些工作時，有沒有針對他留在這個職場的時間去做統計，有嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長來說明。"],["劉委員建國：好，請署長說明。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，我們一般會追蹤至少3個月、會持續進行追蹤。"],["劉委員建國：至少3個月以上？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，有些像是照服員的部分，我們甚至會追蹤到1年。"],["劉委員建國：不同類別有不同的追蹤時間？"],["蔡署長孟良：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以你們這樣的統計數字有點奇怪！我這邊有一個民間的統計數字，你看一下！根據民間的統計，大約有25%到40%的新進員工在半年內就離開了、就離職了，如果把這個套在你們勞發署每年媒合的50萬，也就是說，即使你們媒合了50萬人，但不到3個月、半年，他就跑了、就離職了，大概有12.5萬到20萬左右的人會在半年內離職，我們就以半年為一個周期來講。根據這個數據來推估，勞發署做這件事情好像是在做白工？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來檢討，好嗎？"],["劉委員建國：現在就是我們大家一起來檢討嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：待遇不符合期望高達62%，但剛剛部長說臺灣已經不是一個低薪的環境，因此，這個待遇不符期望到底是雇主不願意提高薪資，或是從事這個職業的人覺得這個薪資沒有達到他要的？不知道你們是否有針對這點去做相關的調查？我覺得它是要細究的，絕對不是只有單純的平均薪資如何如何，我們也要調了啊。你看明年的最低基本工資是2萬8,590元、時薪達到190元，其實你們都有在做嘛！在民進黨執政的這八、九年已經調了9次。然後你們的報告又提到，6.6萬的缺工數以中階技術層次最多，占了59.7%，對不對？同時較高階技術的部分占32.7%，排序在第二嘛！你們有一個後續強化精進作法，打算以僑外生來補嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：那是中階人力。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！剛剛我講的是這兩個層次，填補中階人力的是僑外生嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["劉委員建國：我並沒有反對你以僑外生來補，不過，這個有點奇怪！僑外生本來是一個補充人力，現在你把他放在中階這一塊，僑外生就不會告訴你薪資不符合期望嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：他也會啊！"],["劉委員建國：對啊！所以……"],["何部長佩珊：報告委員，其實我們現在對僑外生的政策已經逐漸不是將他們當成補充人力，而是已經將他們當成人才，我們的政策甚至還要搭配國發會攬才專法的修法。"],["劉委員建國：既然你們把他當成人才……"],["何部長佩珊：希望能夠讓他銜接技術移民。"],["劉委員建國：這樣問題就更嚴重了，對不對？待遇不符期望，難道僑外生沒有這個問題？"],["何部長佩珊：有，他也有這樣的問題啊！"],["劉委員建國：所有的僑外生的比例可能會比62%更高，你要如何處理？"],["何部長佩珊：待遇不符合期望？"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["何部長佩珊：僑外生進來要做的是現在有需求的產業、有一定程度以上的薪水，而且真的找不到人，這個才是我要開中階的目的。譬如昨天我在服務業的座談，測繪、繪圖的那種技術人員，他的薪水可能是四、五萬元以上，但是雇主就是找不到人，因為這是需要專業的，針對這種狀況，我就是希望能讓僑外生進入這種中階的工作。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我覺得你這樣的答復怪怪的！臺灣自己就找不到人了，你還期待中階這一塊可以從僑外生去找，也不擔心他們有待遇不符合期望的狀況，這個部分有些衝突。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，現在有一個概念大家要弄清楚，中階人力不是for低薪行業的移工，這是兩回事喔！中階人力是真的要來補人力的不足，而且他是一定薪水以上、是有薪資門檻的，這也是為什麼旅宿的中階僑外生還要限制薪資門檻3萬3以上，如果是在臺灣的旅宿業都會低到二萬七、二萬八而已，所以中階人力是有薪資門檻以上要來補人力的不足，他的薪水也是會向上提升，我的意思是這樣。"],["劉委員建國：就我的理解，現在不要說是中階，連低階的薪資門檻都有在提高耶！"],["何部長佩珊：對，我的意思就是……"],["劉委員建國：如果你對僑外生有中階勞工需求的薪資門檻設定，對國人怎麼會沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：我們對國人就是希望要提高薪資啊！"],["劉委員建國：對，你這邊是講門檻、那邊是提高薪資，作法上就會……"],["何部長佩珊：為什麼我們要對中階設定薪資門檻，就是怕他拉低國人薪資啊！所以我們才會有薪資門檻的限制，因為他不是移工，這也是為什麼我不開服務業移工的原因，因為服務業移工薪資太低，一進來就會把……"],["劉委員建國：我們要弄清楚一件事情，你對僑外生在中階這個部分有一個門檻的提高，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：你對國人中階的部分有沒有做這樣的處理？沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：國人在中階的部分甚至都會更高啦！因為國人本身在薪資水準上都是……"],["劉委員建國：時間的關係，我們再來對啦！最後還是要提醒你，我還是希望你提出的精進報告能再詳細一點，不然，雖然勞發署那麼辛苦的做事，卻讓我感覺是在做白工。到底是什麼原因這麼快就離開職場？是不是只有單純的待遇不符期望占62%？我覺得這個是有討論的空間。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：最後我要提醒勞發署，現在全臺都在講缺工問題，所以召委今天安排關於缺工的這個專案，勞發署辦理工作崗位訓練有一個叫做先雇後訓，每訓練1個人每個月就補助1.2萬，對不對？特定區域還提高到每個月1.5萬，我想這是一個好的政策，立意良善，但是你們的網站怎麼會這樣？特定缺工產業先僱後訓課程查詢，馬上查詢，2個課程，又壞了？bug！還是真的只有2個課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，因為有些課程結束之後就不會再加上去了。"],["劉委員建國：結束之後就不再繼續了？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為有效的就會在……"],["劉委員建國：所以目前只剩2個課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，目前有效開班的還在放。"],["劉委員建國：就2個課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：是，因為這是由部會提供相關的需求，我們就會協助它開設。"],["劉委員建國：所以這個沒有問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，沒有問題。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉建國委員。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adea9a5eb2c341bff62b22eacfd31272a3d01f23eb7619bd4023fb8e3d700d2a5af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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謝謝你們能夠做這樣的因應變化那我接下來就是也要請教一下因為我們也有一個能源署的公民電廠我跟部長講好多原鄉躍躍欲試啊"},{"start":258.126,"end":270.433,"text":"可是後來都跟我抱怨澄清其實我三年前兩年前都陸陸續續有人跟我抱怨澄清這個很好因為國家想要去做一個分散電網微型電網然後讓我們的這些社區也好鄉鎮也好他能夠參與但是我跟部長說吼恐怕成效很有限吶"},{"start":278.158,"end":296.263,"text":"我們看第一種獎勵辦法．他有所謂的原住民地區參與再生能源設置的獎勵辦法．他是針對原住民地區的鄉鎮事工所．我跟部長講．你知道目前有哪個原鄉有成功設置嗎．有醫院的有喔．但是你知道成功設置的有嗎．"},{"start":300.014,"end":307.76,"text":"即便你要講臺東大午紅葉對不對那個也是企業啊那個也不是鄉公所有辦法做的啊為什麼我們來看一下辦法因為法規裡面提到說第6條之一他說評估階段會給200萬元"},{"start":317.186,"end":330.196,"text":"執行設置階段他說下列情形為上限且不得設置超過新台幣1000萬元又提到發電設備不能夠超過20%除能設備不能夠超過40%我簡單跟部長換算總之意思就是說我為了得到政府你補助我1000萬我設備要準備4000萬誰做得到"},{"start":343.192,"end":371.817,"text":"誰做得到所以您了解我的意思那因為時間的關係我再講另外一個設置辦法是屬於合作社社區型的好很好不一定要相公所做如果我社區發展協會要做也可以可是我們看一下他的辦法挺好的欸改了百分之五十意思就是說政府你出一半我出一半相對合理但是還是很困難但是重點是說總裝置容量要十千瓦以上"},{"start":372.817,"end":379.395,"text":"我們看一個圖片好多原鄉正在做這種防災型的微電網喔但是他們拿不到獎勵"},{"start":381.059,"end":404.214,"text":"為什麼?因為太大的他做不起他太小的又不符合資格這種10千瓦以下的設備他就沒有辦法申請所以這個部分可能部長您聽懂了我們的獎勵缺乏多元彈性的想像所以無法有效的達到公民的參與所以這個部分是不是要改善改進是我們回去檢討"},{"start":405.034,"end":405.715,"text":"法定人數不足"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1377,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai 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會符合族人的需求，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：還有另外一件事情，一年2億真的不夠啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們會來爭取。"],["高金委員素梅：可不可以？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，今年就爭取，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：今年的好像已經確定了。"],["高金委員素梅：沒關係，如果我們有急迫性、真的需要的話，你用二備金也可以來補助。"],["郭部長智輝：可以，我想我們署長在這方面是專家，他可以調整。"],["高金委員素梅：好，希望他是專家。署長，希望你都了解原鄉地區跟偏鄉地區，我們沒有乾淨的自來水，至少給我們一個合乎規範的簡易自來水，我們也有繳納稅金喔，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員：我想原鄉、偏鄉所有的居民都是中華民國的居民。"],["高金委員素梅：很好，為人民服務是我們的職責。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝您。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝你。"],["主席：請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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SPEAKER_02","start":559.94346875,"end":560.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.36096875,"end":563.03159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.548,"end":7.192,"text":"有請部長跟館長,人權管館長好有請部長跟館長"},{"start":15.658,"end":36.77,"text":"財委員您好部長好就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬800萬"},{"start":41.863,"end":69.922,"text":"今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦到展覽類啊其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說過去他可以拿50萬現在他直接砍一半"},{"start":71.211,"end":71.391,"text":"請審查委員"},{"start":86.127,"end":114,"text":"我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了這麼多預算第一個問題我想請教的是部長可不可以來支持我們的人權管可以增加他的預算第二個是說我們是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費回到當年的水準呢"},{"start":114.44,"end":142.926,"text":"不然你看越來越多案子可是大家拿的錢越來越少今天如果我們要做戲劇音樂類的他到底要怎麼執行部長我想你也非常清楚我們有一個促轉基金我們可以從那邊我看一下促轉基金的費用那那個地方如果加上這個就不少其實促轉基金只有申請2400萬但是我要講的是說如果我們當時的預算可以去指引為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作"},{"start":143.306,"end":160.691,"text":"而不是用促轉基金再去強化我們其他的工作,像我們現在在講促轉基金你們來去做安康接待式的保存活化,對,這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目,我們拿促轉基金來錢來做,而是如果我們原本的預算當年你就可以做到1900萬的補助經費的話,為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢?還是請次長來回答呢?"},{"start":170.27,"end":170.93,"text":"但問題是說我們總體上人權管的預算還是下降啦。"},{"start":190.097,"end":214.076,"text":"那既然如果說我們今天要做不義遺址的保存有更多處要去來去進行的話有這麼多工…但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。教育推廣沒有增加啊我看2025年是1100萬啊。總的加上基金申請之後全部放在這裡的預算。對,是加上基金申請之後嘛可是國家人權管的總體預算還是降了7000多萬嘛。就算你加回去出產基金還是不到2021年的標準嘛。那個是總體預算的調整啦,對。"},{"start":216.999,"end":228.313,"text":"我覺得這個問題因為我時間很有限但是我是希望就是說我們可以來做個時間好好討論的因為你就算加上促轉基金2400萬你還是沒有回到2021年的國家人權那個預算因為人權款2021年是4億9千萬"},{"start":232.692,"end":254.064,"text":"總體的預算上的確是會有不同的...對,所以我想要...因為我們工作越來越多項嘛,怎麼我們的經費雖然越少了,而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的。對,我們希望...所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題,因為如果國家人權管是唯一我們要做這些相關的一個主體單...主要的一個單位的話,這個預算不能少啊,不然像我今年去...對,我們希望可以爭取,沒有錯。對,我們希望...拜託請部長支持好嗎?部長可以支持嗎?"},{"start":255.56,"end":262.796,"text":"我跟委員講齁就這個預算雖然不高可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影講的是白色恐怖也好"},{"start":263.763,"end":263.843,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":288.998,"end":295.444,"text":"我們可以詳細來討論因為我知道就算是加放出轉基金我們的錢還是比當年還是要來的下降再來就是說"},{"start":296.724,"end":325.305,"text":"我們這次回到這個版本上面我們現在不義遺址裡面在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到建立個案資料和保存活化輔導的這些機制是有讓民團來參與的但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話現在全台灣是有106處未來可能還會增加我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力來去執行所以我部分這個部分我就參考了這個抱歉"},{"start":327.102,"end":342.752,"text":"水下文資保存法他其實是有提到說租款機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動所以我也希望在條文的設計上面我們可以把民間的力量來納入所以希望部長也可以來支持我的版本這個部分可以嗎好我們就一起來討論吧"},{"start":345.277,"end":371.211,"text":"再來就是說其實不義遺址的定義其實今天大家也有講就是我們應該是不是可以更擴大因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地但是我是希望說其實我們現在這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛像這個是施魯珍之強這個人當年為了要躲避政府的一個追緝他自己棄了這個空間把他自己關起來他自己關起來關了十幾年所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有"},{"start":372.091,"end":394.213,"text":"而沒有去擴大解釋的話,那我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解說法律要有操作型的定義啦,所以這部分是不是也可以跟文化部我們一起來集思廣益,是否現在的定義過於僵化呢?我們是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面?"},{"start":395.314,"end":419.523,"text":"這個部長您的想法是?可以一起來討論,像蘇汝貞這個牆,像這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是,我想我們都可以列入在法案審查的時候一起來討論。好,謝謝,因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間啦。那再來就是說原住民的部分,那其實我想之前人權館其實也做了相關的展覽,那剛剛前面也有委員提到,除了這個是轉型正義威權國家對於人權的迫害,"},{"start":420.223,"end":423.384,"text":"當年國際安全館也做了一個相關的主題展但是在我們的政院的草案審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例"},{"start":437.352,"end":457.63,"text":"但是如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條呢,裡面就有規定在處理原住民的這些相關文化資產的時候都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與。那這一版呢我也是希望說是不是可以來跟部長到時候我們在版本上面是不是可以一起來支持我的版本。"},{"start":458.03,"end":462.691,"text":"檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬具檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查"},{"start":486.693,"end":511.209,"text":"都非常支持。最後一件事情就是說在106處的不義遺址的時候其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍所以法律上它屬於司法人例如看南商工或者是228所屬的地方淡水中學但是現在的條文設計的話除非他提出申請不然我們很難去要求他保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史但是司法人其實拿了非常多的政府的一些補助款"},{"start":511.789,"end":538.854,"text":"尤其是學校在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下在司法人這些私立學校的不義遺址我們可不可以一起的來去做一些擴大的空間然後讓這些東西可以被納入那因為我會認為就是說這個轉型正義對於台灣是一個非常非常重要的工作那也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本因為它所存在的歷史"},{"start":539.474,"end":539.734,"text":"謝謝部長支持,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝張雅玲。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時）有請部長跟人權館館長。"],["主席：有請部長跟館長。"],["李部長遠：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。其實我過去在民間也參與非常多轉型正義的一些導讀，我也曾經申請過人權館的補助，我今天就想要針對人權館的補助先來做一個請教。我們可以看到人權館的補助，跟2021年相比，我們的預算整整少了將近八百萬，今（2024）年跟2021年相比，整整少了八百萬，我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多的，變成案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的。我自己也看了，其實這些得到補助案的類型非常的廣泛，從戲劇類到展覽類非常多元，但是我也有聽到團體跟我說，過去它可以拿到50萬，現在直接砍一半。所以如果我們今天在講不義遺址，它需要做一些保存，它需要做一些推廣，可是我們的金額，不管是整體的補助經費下降，案件平均補助也下降，這樣到底要如何去執行呢？我想請教，我們現在如果去看人權館的整體預算，其實拿2025年跟2021年相比，也整整少了七千多萬，但是今年明明文化部是增加了17%的預算，為什麼人權館反而少了這麼多預算？第一個問題，我想請教部長，可不可以來支持我們的人權館，增加它的預算？第二個，是不是可以讓我們在人權教育推廣活動的經費，回到當年的水準呢？不然，你看越來越多案子，可是大家拿的錢越來越少，今天如果我們要做戲劇、音樂類的，它到底要怎麼執行？部長，我想你也非常清楚。"],["李部長遠：我們有一個促轉基金，我們可以從那邊……"],["張委員雅琳：我看一下促轉基金的費用，其實……"],["李部長遠：那個地方如果加上這個就不少。"],["張委員雅琳：其實促轉基金只有申請2,400萬，但是我要講的是說，如果我們當時的預算可以去支應，為什麼要用促轉基金來做同樣類型的工作，而不是用促轉基金再去強化其他工作？像我們現在在講促轉基金，你們拿去做安康接待室的保存活化，對，這的確是當年沒有包含的一個項目，所以拿促轉基金的錢來做，可是如果我們原本的預算，當年你就可以做到1,900萬的補助經費的話，為什麼我們不能夠提到原來的標準呢？還是請次長來回答呢？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們其實是希望儘量用促轉基金的費用來做，這樣本預算的基金可以再去做其他人權保存的工作，所以我們在這個預算的配置上，其實我們反而是朝向促轉基金來做申請，來做這些推廣跟保存，所以總體上是增加的。"],["張委員雅琳：但問題是總體上人權館的預算還是下降啦！既然我們今天要做不義遺址的保存，有更多處要去進行的話，有這麼多工項……"],["王次長時思：但是放在教育推廣補助的總預算其實是增加的。"],["張委員雅琳：教育推廣沒有增加啊！我看2025年是1,100萬啊！"],["王次長時思：我是說總的，加上基金申請之後，全部放在這裡的預算。"],["張委員雅琳：對，是加上基金申請之後嘛，可是國家人權館的總體預算還是降了七千多萬，就算你加回去促轉基金，還是不到2021年的標準嘛！"],["王次長時思：那個是總體預算的調整啦！"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得這個問題，因為我時間很有限啦，但是我是希望我們可以有個時間好好討論，因為就算加上促轉基金2,400萬，你還是沒有回到2021年國家人權館的預算。因為人權館2021年是4億9,000萬。"],["王次長時思：總體的預算上的確是會有不同……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我們工作越來越多項嘛，怎麼我們的經費是越來越少？而且文化部明明今年是增加預算的，所以我覺得這個部分是有很大的問題。"],["王次長時思：對，我們是希望爭取增加人權館的預算和人員。"],["張委員雅琳：因為如果國家人權館是我們要做這些相關的一個主要的單位的話，這個預算不能少啊！不然像我今年去……"],["王次長時思：我們希望可以爭取，沒有錯。"],["張委員雅琳：對，拜託請部長支持好嗎？部長可以支持嗎？"],["李部長遠：我跟委員講，這個預算雖然不高，可是你要知道我們如果去拍一部電影，講的是白色恐怖也好，那個電影的影響力有多大。最近我們……"],["張委員雅琳：當然啊……"],["李部長遠：所以我們最近就有兩部……"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分我也想要拜託部長繼續來支持我們相關的電影……"],["李部長遠：對，它的費用非常……"],["張委員雅琳：因為我有聽到一些團體跟我反映，說爭取預算有點辛苦啦，所以部長剛剛有講……"],["李部長遠：沒問題，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：會支持，那就拜託請繼續支持。"],["李部長遠：會。"],["張委員雅琳：回到人權館的預算，我希望是可以繼續來支持啦，好不好？這個我們可以詳細來討論，因為我知道就算加上促轉基金，我們的錢還是比當年要來得下降。","再來，回到這個版本上面，現在不義遺址在政院版裡面只有在第四條有去提到，建立個案資料和保存、活化、輔導的一些機制是有讓民團來參與的。但是如果我們把教育推廣的精神也納入這個法案裡面的話，現在全臺灣是有106處，未來可能還會增加，我們沒有辦法只依照現在的行政人力去執行。所以這個部分我就參考了水下文化資產保存法，它其實有提到，主管機關可以委任其他機關或團體進行教育和推廣的活動，所以在條文的設計上面，我們可以把民間的力量來納入，希望部長也可以來支持我的版本，這個部分可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，我們就一起來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，其實不義遺址的定義今天大家也有講，我們是不是可以更擴大？因為現在是只有講侵害人權的發生地，但是這些不義遺址發生的地方非常的廣泛，像「施儒珍之牆」，這個人當年為了要躲避政府的追緝，他砌了這個空間把他自己關起來，關了十幾年，所以如果我們只有講發生地而沒有去擴大解釋的話，這樣我們對於轉型正義的理解可能就會太過的單一以及扁平。我也理解法律要有操作型的定義，所以這部分，我們是不是也可以跟文化部一起來集思廣益，是否現在的定義過於僵化呢？是不是可以有更多的樣態可以被包容在裡面？部長，您的想法？"],["李部長遠：可以一起來討論，像施儒珍這個牆這樣的故事或這樣的地方算不算是？我想我們都可以在法案審查的時候列入一起來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝，因為我覺得我們還是要擴大一些空間。","再來就是原住民的部分，之前人權館也做了相關的展覽，剛剛前面也有委員提到，除了這個是轉型正義，其實威權國家對於人權的迫害是廣泛於各個族群，原住民也是相當遭到迫害的一個族群，當年國家人權館也做了一個相關的主題展。在我們政院的草案，審議會的規定只有規定到性別成員的比例，但是，如果我們參考原住民族文化資產處理辦法的第八條，裡面就有規定，在處理原住民這些相關文化資產的時候，都必須要讓原住民所屬的部落或傳統組織來進行參與，而這一版，我也是希望到時候在版本上面，部長是不是可以一起來支持我的版本，如何讓原住民可以納入？尤其是我們現在106處的不義遺址，都是在花蓮跟綠島這些地方，其實不是原住民主要的生活區域，像鄒族的地方或是大豹社樂信．瓦旦的地方，我覺得都是蠻需要一起被納入的，這部分部長可以一起來支持嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒有問題，我們在法案審查的時候，把它列進去討論。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長今天對我的懇求都非常的支持。最後一件事情，在106處不義遺址中，其實有一些地方是位於私校的範圍，所以法律上它屬於私法人，例如開南商工或者是二二八所屬的地方──淡水中學，但是以現在條文的設計，除非它提出申請，不然我們很難去要求它保留這些建物或去推廣這些歷史，但是私法人其實拿了非常多政府的一些補助款，尤其是學校，在社會公益上面也有一定的教育責任，所以這個部分是不是也可以請文化部再去思考一下，在私法人這些私立學校的不義遺址，我們可不可以一起來做一些擴大的空間，然後讓這些東西可以被納入？因為我認為轉型正義對於臺灣是一個非常、非常重要的工作，也非常感謝文化部願意提出這樣子的一個版本，因為它所存在的歷史，就是臺灣一個民主化的過程以及它的價值，不應該不被討論，民主社會是我們最重要的一個生活價值，也是我們所有人認同的一個最大公約數。所以希望透過不義遺址的這個工作，可以讓這些歷史跟價值真正的存活在我們每一個人心中，謝謝部長支持，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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我們請何部長請部長"},{"start":11.186,"end":38.454,"text":"部長好今天從早上到現在其實很多委員關心的就不論是全職的這個工作或者是部分工時的工作那其實我們講缺工的問題確實還蠻大的那尤其是這個製造業製造業的這個缺工更大因為像彰化這一邊中小企業非常的多那他們也會反映就是說他們一個工作就像部長你們今天的這個報告"},{"start":39.794,"end":63.582,"text":"有6.6萬個職位這個選缺超過半年找不到人那確實這個是真的在我們的地方確實是這樣子的狀況那很多這個製造業他們也希望說能夠聘請臺灣就是臺灣的這個勞工畢竟臺灣的勞工第一個語言可以溝通那第二個他也不需要去"},{"start":64.242,"end":82.684,"text":"幫他負擔一些他回去他就可以回到他自己家裡面嗎那這個住的問題就可以也也不用去幫他擔心所以其實一般的這個傳製造業他們第一個優先還是希望說有臺灣的勞工來應徵嗎那非不得已的話他們就會在"},{"start":83.624,"end":106.829,"text":"請仲介可能就引進這個外籍移工進來那我今天想要知道就是說勞動部也針對這個缺工的原因你們也有做一些分析嗎那怎麼解決原因有兩個第一個可能就是說這個薪資跟原本這個勞工的這個期待有一些落差那另外一個就是說工作年齡的人口逐年減少"},{"start":108.43,"end":132.745,"text":"這兩個主要原因那你們也有提出一些因應的方案比如說可能就是跨部會的這個合作機制啊優先媒合國人就業那還有一個就是說這個職業訓練培訓產業人才接下來才是這個加強這個推動中階技術人力流財的政策那我想請教就是說"},{"start":133.891,"end":156.803,"text":"其實你們提出了這些解決的方案那比如說這個跨部會的合作機制優先媒合本國人就業那這個還有另外一個是職業訓練培訓產業所需要的人才那因為製造業確實缺工的問題非常的多那你們有這樣的一個機制培訓的這個機制那到底"},{"start":157.923,"end":179.683,"text":"這個培訓的課程培訓完之後他真正投入到這個產業到底有多少那確定可以解決這樣子的一個缺工的問題到底有多少上次我記得我有問過這樣的議題就是說你們是不是有做一個統計那今天我再問一下就是說你們針對這一部分就是說你們做執訓完之後那確實投入這個產業"},{"start":181.324,"end":192.73,"text":"也解決了少部分的這個缺工的議題這個問題那你們到底有沒有做一個統計有委員那個我們製造業的部分去年訓練10242人訓後就業率有82%到9月今年9月底有訓練到8366人是那像營建業的部分去年訓練3920人"},{"start":210.78,"end":211.18,"text":"是是是是是"},{"start":233.696,"end":259.628,"text":"為什麼地方尤其是製造業製造業缺工的這個議題真的是很多企業他們在反映就是缺工嗎就是缺工所以我也知道就是說你們在地方都有做這樣的一個培訓執訓的一個課程那照剛剛部長講的投入投入到職場的也有七八十百分之七八十那算也也不低啦那為什麼還是有"},{"start":261.896,"end":275.219,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1屆第2會期社會"},{"start":289.683,"end":316.9,"text":"從一開始我們就一直在討論這個缺工的議題嘛齁那這個也是勞動部應該要這個積極去解決的問題那我想請 委員跟您報告喔那個彰化地區向我們工業區廠商聯合會我們跟他們溝通他也是我們最低工資審議委員是我們跟他溝通非常密切他們他們也是有在反映所以我們現在也會針對我們所謂的3K5極致啦這個禁用比例40%"},{"start":318.561,"end":320.983,"text":"第3個你們有說加強推動中階技術人才的這個留任的政策就是說這個"},{"start":337.153,"end":338.114,"text":"您有針對放寬畢業僑外生的工作許可"},{"start":357.345,"end":357.745,"text":"上次部長有這樣講啦"},{"start":385.353,"end":402.6,"text":"那如果說我們針對這個畢業的這個橋外生從事這樣的工作就是說可能一開始是初次受聘就3萬然後續聘是3萬3那部長你覺得這樣子的話可以確實讓這些人願意留下來嗎"},{"start":404.919,"end":426.128,"text":"這確實是問題啊 這個也是為什麼我即便開放的喬外森是這樣中間人才來從事 那喬外森也是會調工作啦 是對那這樣的薪資又因足不足以又使他們留下來是問號 所以那這也是呂樹葉的問題因為他在怎麼他們開出來的薪資水準就是這樣 是對那這個是主管機關"},{"start":427.449,"end":428.01,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況"},{"start":442.865,"end":464.277,"text":"比如說協調也好或是溝通也好我覺得如果說照這樣子的話你剛剛講的這三個機制可能跨部會合作機制優先媒合本國人就業那第二個就是說這個做職業培訓職業訓練那第三可能就是中階技術人才的這個留才"},{"start":465.157,"end":494.755,"text":"那如果說你中階技術人員的這個流財的政策如果他開出來的薪資還是這樣的話我不認為他們會願意留在這邊工作就像剛剛很多委員講的可能我們鄰近的國家他開出來的薪資都比臺灣的薪資還好那怎麼樣讓這些人願意留下來我覺得這是一個很重要也很大的一個問題我跟委員報告就是含包括義後缺工獎勵方案為什麼這個質詢率不好也是這個因素"},{"start":495.355,"end":511.527,"text":"所以我們就是說希望企業界要有一個認知 這已經不是低薪的時代了 無論是對本國人或者是移工都是一樣的 因為我們也在跟國際搶工這是最大的問題的根源 很像喬外森 就像您剛剛講的 陳主任您剛剛講的 這也是在國際搶工潮裡面 他們都是可以留向任何國家的"},{"start":519.292,"end":545.043,"text":"對﹑對﹑對"},{"start":546.084,"end":566.483,"text":"最後一個我想請教昨天院長在那個院會的時候因為有委員質詢那有特別提到就是說這個家庭幫傭這個議題我想請教部長就是說昨天我聽到院長有說這個可能在年底的時候會"},{"start":568.545,"end":568.745,"text":"我想請教關於家庭幫傭"},{"start":592.162,"end":619.549,"text":"家庭幫庸他未來如果說你們開放之後那是不是也要協助這個育兒的這種工作可能就是照顧孩子小孩的這樣的一個工作我覺得這個可能這個議題可能會牽涉到很多層面那這個議題也是很多人關心的對委員就是家庭幫庸開放的議題我們必須衛福部一起來處理那衛福部在這方面目前都還很保留"},{"start":620.009,"end":632.849,"text":"是,那當然...如果照昨天院長這樣講的話他講的好像是說這個年底就會有一個決定那我現在已經10月底了"},{"start":633.857,"end":660.397,"text":"具體年底可能剩下一兩個月我相信你們應該也自己有一個副案那我想要提醒就是說這個議題會牽涉到的層面非常的多那可能就是保姆的這個我們國人的保姆的就業機會可能也會受到衝擊所以我覺得說這個如果要做一個決定應該也要很審慎的去做一個評估是這我們必須跨部會溝通而且確實成如您講的這個我們"},{"start":662.478,"end":662.658,"text":"當然當然,謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1165,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時47分）謝謝主席，我們請何部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天從早上到現在其實很多委員關心的，不論是全職的工作或者是部分工時的工作，其實我們講缺工的問題確實還蠻大的，尤其是製造業，製造業的缺工更大，像彰化這邊中小企業非常的多，他們也會反映，就像部長你們今天這個報告，有6.6萬個職位懸缺超過半年找不到人，這個真的在我們地方確實是這樣子的狀況，很多製造業它們也希望能夠聘請臺灣的勞工，畢竟臺灣的勞工，第一個、語言可以溝通；第二個、他也不需要去幫他負擔一些費用，他可以回到他自己家裡面嘛！這個住的問題也不用去幫他擔心，所以其實一般的製造業，它們第一個優先還是希望有臺灣的勞工來應徵，非不得已的話，他們就會再請仲介，可能就引進外籍移工進來。我今天想要知道勞動部也針對缺工的原因，你們也有做一些分析嘛！原因有兩個，第一個、可能就是這個薪資跟原本勞工的期待有一些落差；另外一個就是工作年齡的人口逐年減少，這兩個是主要原因。","你們也有提出一些因應的方案，譬如可能就是跨部會的合作機制，優先媒合國人就業，還有一個就是職業訓練培訓產業人才，接下來才是加強推動中階技術人力留才政策。我想請教的是，你們提出的這些解決方案，譬如跨部會合作機制，優先媒合本國人就業；另外一個是職業訓練培訓產業所需要的人才，因為製造業缺工的問題確實非常多，你們有這樣一個培訓的機制、培訓的課程，培訓完之後，真正投入到這個產業的人到底有多少？確定可以解決這樣的一個缺工問題到底有多少？我記得上次也問過這樣的議題，今天我再問一次，針對這個部分，你們在職訓完之後，確實投入這個產業，也解決了少部分的缺工問題，你們到底有沒有做一個統計？"],["何部長佩珊：有的。我們在製造業的部分，去年訓練10,242人，訓後就業率有82%；到今年9月底訓練了8,366人，營建業的部分去年訓練3,920人，訓後就業率有88%，其實都還不低；照顧服務員也是，去年訓練9,200人，訓後就業率有75%；托育人員去年訓練2,247人，訓後就業率也有77%。"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣聽起來好像也還不錯，為什麼在地方，尤其是製造業缺工的問題，真的很很多企業都在反應。我知道你們在地方都有做這樣一個培訓、職訓的課程，照剛剛部長講的，投入到職場的也有百分之七、八十，比例也不低，為什麼就還是不夠呢？"],["何部長佩珊：不夠啦！畢竟是真的少子化啦！就缺工的這個議題，整體的人真的是少了，說真的，我們就算訓練再多，投入再多，整體的供給確實還是不夠的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，供給不夠，缺工這個議題，從一開始，我們就一直在討論，這個也是勞動部應該要積極去解決的問題。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，當然！跟委員報告，像彰化的工業區廠商聯合會也是我們最低工資審議委員，我們跟他們溝通非常密切，他們也有在反應，所以我們現在也將針對所謂的3K五級制中的進用比例40%能不能做一些調整，這個部分已經在跟他們密切的溝通討論，會來檢討調整。"],["黃委員秀芳：好的。第三，你們有加強推動中階技術人才的留任政策，也就是基層的留才久用，確實在地方也有一些企業提出這樣一個申請。我想請教的是，你們有放寬畢業僑外生的工作許可；從事旅宿業的部分，初步看到的可能就是房務清潔、訂房接待或是餐廳外場的工作，初次受聘的薪資門檻為3萬，續聘是3.3萬。之前部長在這邊說3萬或3萬1算是低薪，上次部長這樣講過，針對畢業僑外生從事這樣的工作，可能初次受聘是3萬，續聘是3萬3，部長覺得這樣確實可以讓這些人願意留下來嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這確實是問題，這也是我們即便開放僑外生這樣的中階人才來從事，僑外生也是會挑工作的，這樣的薪資誘因足不足以誘使他們留下來，仍是問號；但這也是旅宿業的問題，因為他們開出來的薪資水準就是這樣。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：這也是主管機關交通部觀光署報過來的薪資水準。所以就是……"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣子就永遠沒辦法解決，所以我想請教的是，未來要怎麼去協調或是溝通？如果照你剛剛講的這三個機制，第一個是跨部會合作機制優先媒合本國人就業；第二個就是做職業培訓，職業訓練；第三個就是中階技術人才的留才。中階技術人員的留才政策，如果他開出來的薪資還是這樣的話，我不認為他們會願意留在這邊工作。"],["何部長佩珊：是沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：就像剛剛很多委員講的，我們鄰近國家開出來的薪資可能都比臺灣的薪資還好，所以怎麼樣讓這些人願意留下來，我覺得這是一個很重要，也很大的一個問題。"],["何部長佩珊：我跟委員報告，含包括疫後缺工獎勵方案，為什麼執行率不好，其實也是這個因素。所以我們希望企業界要有一個認知，這已經不是低薪的時代，無論是對本國人或是移工，都一樣，因為我們也在跟國際搶工，這是最大的問題根源。就像您剛剛講的，僑外生也在國際搶工潮裡面，他們可以流向任何國家，未必要留在我們這裡。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以我覺得這應該也要去跨部會或者是跟企業或者是跟工業區……"],["何部長佩珊：我們希望從產業端去尋求……"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得我們部會可能也要跟地方的公會或是地方的這些廠協會有一些溝通。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：或者是商總，都應該要有一些溝通。"],["何部長佩珊：有，我們昨天其實……"],["黃委員秀芳：就是告訴他們，如果他們有賺錢，也要願意跟所有的勞工一起分享。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：最後一個問題，昨天院長在院會備詢的時候，有委員特別提到家庭幫傭這個議題，我聽到院長說，這部分可能年底的時候會做一個決定。針對我們所講的，第一個要優先媒合國人就業，如果真的缺工，可能就是開放移工，或是其他的政策。我想請教部長，家庭幫傭未來如果開放了，是不是也要協助育兒的工作，就是照顧小孩這樣的一個工作？我覺得這個議題可能會牽涉到很多層面，而這個也是很多人關心的。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，有關家庭幫傭開放的議題，我們必須跟衛福部一起來處理，衛福部在這方面，目前都還很保留……"],["黃委員秀芳：如果照院長昨天這樣講，好像是說年底就會有一個決定；現在都已經10月底了，距離年底就剩下一、兩個月，我相信你們自己應該也有一個腹案。我想要提醒的是，這個議題牽涉到的層面非常廣，國人保母的就業機會可能也會受到衝擊，如果要做決定，也要很審慎的去做評估。"],["何部長佩珊：是，這個我們必須跨部會溝通，誠如您講的，我們也要評估這對整個社會的衝擊面。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。對於昨天院長這樣講，我覺得你們自己應該也有一些腹案，真的要去溝通，不要宣布之後，造成某一些團體的陳抗或是衝擊，這些都不是我們所樂見的。謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，當然。謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：接下來請葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156332","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156332","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade39289b3490165342b22eacfd31272a3df293381db574b3e93ab31a2dbb756f7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:51:31 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麼瞭解不是那麼瞭解那我們可以用嗎現在有很多的大家的問題我想這一個我本人不是這個專家那我想沒關係我們現在用很多東西生活上用的我都不是專家但是要用之前要確認"},{"start":51.687,"end":74.056,"text":"所以那個委員你要問的問題我想我的同事應該都有參加可以回答我請教您您覺得SRF這種所謂的固體再生燃料您覺得OK嗎這個現在是國際的趨勢啦好國際的趨勢而且它是減碳的相對於其他它是減碳的對減碳所以為了減碳我們可以犧牲其他的嗎"},{"start":75.543,"end":82.726,"text":"你要減碳,你其他也要兼顧嘛所以,部長,您知道燃燒什麼東西會產生黛奧辛嗎?不知道,沒關係,不要浪費時間含氯經過高溫催化會產生黛奧辛那你知道現在...那您知道現在很多SRF的燃料它這個在應用上"},{"start":104.895,"end":126.551,"text":"有很多還是產生戴奧欣你知道有這種情況嗎?有那所以我們台灣要但我本席知道這個在第10屆的這個就2020年開始第10屆的立法院就開始在推那推到目前您應該有接到很多的反應、抗議跟爭議吧?"},{"start":128.524,"end":129.586,"text":"那本席告訴你為什麼?"},{"start":139.212,"end":167.681,"text":"本席的選區啊這個就聽到地方上有人說啊有一個地方是不是偷偷蓋焚化爐怎麼那麼臭然後呢這個那個味道常常有塑膠味燃燒金屬的毒氣味然後令人感到噁心想吐頭痛那您當然知道這個東西一定是地方民意代表他找環保局他們在那邊弄弄了很久"},{"start":168.661,"end":187.277,"text":"大家還是搞不清楚只知道那一個廠會發出這些臭味後來也有人想說跟我們反映我們就去了解以後他就是用SRF的這個燃料的一個職場那這個情況呢讓我們發現我們台灣已經在用廢發電了現在要我們用廢來減碳嗎"},{"start":194.602,"end":195.623,"text":"所以SRF這種燃料棒"},{"start":218.126,"end":235.773,"text":"他在燃燒的時候不會產生惡臭．不會產生有毒物質．包含像戴奧辛．他不會產生對人體健康．生命的危害嗎．這一點部長您回答我如果規範上面．大家都follow這個規範．他是不會的那不是啊 那他"},{"start":240.39,"end":241.611,"text":"所以現在才聽到有民意代表跟你反映?"},{"start":264.851,"end":276.101,"text":"我今年5月才來啊,所以...那現在已經11月了對,所以我跟您報告,這個問題...所以這半年您都不知道SRF有產生這麼大的問題那個不是我主管的"},{"start":281.581,"end":294.767,"text":"委員您關心那個部分我也知道您講的是哪一家職場我們今年6月到9月我們有就全國所有的製造廠48家、使用廠18家全面的總體檢那我們有提供一些體檢的一些建議給他們"},{"start":296.408,"end":302.23,"text":"回過頭來我們自己也會加強這個品質的規範以及排氣標準的那這樣不行啊你們不能發生問題再重新來提解跟委員報告他其實他在產出之前你就要確認當然有啊當然有剛剛委員所關心的代耗性的部分我們的標準就是0.1耐克那這個部分也是歐盟的標準我們希望都不會產生代耗性啊你還有你還有你只要給他一個空間那這個這個標準是國際的標準"},{"start":326.657,"end":340.896,"text":"我可以選擇不要這樣傷害人體的這個物質嗎?是,那我們也希望說生產生活的過程都不要產生廢棄物但是沒有辦法,垃圾一定會產生我們源頭要減量但一旦產生了我們用好的方法去處理它"},{"start":342.419,"end":346.882,"text":"本席接獲民眾的陳情就是他怎麼存放在那裡東北季風一吹味道就那麼重"},{"start":368.159,"end":389.959,"text":"你們有沒有到過現場?跟委員報告當然有啊就是說他有一些是原料的部分燃料的部分他必須要去做覆蓋所以SRF燃料只要產生出來放在那就會有錯位啊?是跟委員報告這個我們台灣真的能用嗎?我們也跟地方政府保局一起到現場去監督過了有問題我們會請他改善"},{"start":395.486,"end":419.419,"text":"委員如果你對這個部分有願意進一步了解,我們也可以安排委員來看。好,我真的希望你們,這個不是只有這一家,可是你SRF你為了要在台灣大量運用,真的不要減了碳,結果我們全民的健康賠進去。當然不會,它一定是在我們的健康之下,有的話環保局就會告發,那它就要改善。"},{"start":421.886,"end":429.772,"text":"現在已經發生了 真的不要在冷氣房來做任何的決策跟判斷你實際到哪裡看過?"},{"start":433.513,"end":454.526,"text":"你講那家廠我就看過然後呢你覺得OK?我們有看過那目前它的連線SIMS連線就是剛剛講戴耀星的全區物質是立即要連線跟地方環保局不是你不要一直講理論現在那我請部長和次長哪一天來站在那邊我們一起在那邊站一個小時不要戴口罩試試看好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1266,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時51分）謝謝主席，本席有請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。部長，今天要談SRF發電廠，你本身對SRF瞭解嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我不是那麼瞭解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是那麼瞭解？那我們可以用嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在大家有很多的問題，我本人不是這個方面的專家，但是我們團隊可以回答你的問題……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係！我們現在用的很多東西，包括生活上用的，我都不是專家，但是要用之前要確認吧？"],["郭部長智輝：所以委員你要問的問題，我的同事裡面應該都有專家可以回答。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請教部長，你覺得這種所謂的固體再生燃料（SRF）OK嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個現在是國際的趨勢，而且它是減碳的，相對於其他的，它是減碳的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以為了減碳，我們可以犧牲其他的嗎？你要減碳，其他也要兼顧嘛！所以部長，你知道燃燒什麼東西會產生戴奧辛嗎？不知道？沒關係，不要浪費時間，含氯，經過高溫催化會產生戴奧辛……"],["郭部長智輝：就是不完全燃燒，不完全燃燒就會產生戴奧辛。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你知道現在有很多SRF燃料在應用上還是會產生戴奧辛，你知道有這種情況嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席知道這個在第10屆2020年立法院就開始在推，推到目前你應該有接到很多的反映、抗議跟爭議吧？"],["郭部長智輝：好像沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：真的啊？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：桃園的廠，他們不是也在抗議嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：到目前為止，好像就桃園在抗議而已。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席告訴你為什麼，在本席的選區就聽到地方上有人說有一個地方是不是偷偷蓋焚化爐，怎麼那麼臭，常常有塑膠味、燃燒金屬的毒氣味，令人感到噁心、想吐、頭痛。我們當然知道這個東西一定是地方民意代表找環保局，他們在那邊弄了很久，結果大家還是搞不清楚，只知道那一個廠會發出這些臭味，後來也有人跟我們反映，我們去瞭解以後，才知道它就是用SRF燃料的紙廠，這個情況讓我們發現臺灣已經在用肺發電了，現在要我們用肺來減碳嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然不是啦！如果委員看到有這樣的現象，歡迎跟我們聯絡，我想政府不會視而不見，現在有這樣一個嚴重現象，怎麼可能讓它持續發生，我想你我都不願意，他們也是我們的鄉親，所以我們一定要愛護他。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以SRF這種燃料棒在燃燒的時候不會產生惡臭，不會產生有毒物質包含像戴奧辛，不會產生對人體健康、生命的危害嗎？這點請部長回答我。"],["郭部長智輝：如果在規範上面大家都follow這個規範，它是不會的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啊！它覺得它follow規範出來的產品，你們整個嚴謹度及控管度夠不夠？"],["郭部長智輝：我們就是要monitoring這個狀況，我們要監控……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你過去以來有沒有確實在monitoring？"],["郭部長智輝：過去我沒有參與，不過今後我會深入地瞭解這件事情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在才聽到有民意代表跟你反映嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我今年5月才來，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在已經11月了。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我跟你報告，這個問題……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這半年你都不知道SRF有產生這麼大的問題嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：那個不是我主管的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是環境部嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是我主管的，我是不是請環境部跟你報告一下？"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以。"],["沈次長志修：委員，你關心的那個部分，我也知道你講的是哪一家紙廠，我們今年6月到9月有就全國所有的製造廠48家、使用廠18家進行全面總體檢，我們有提供一些體檢的建議給他們，回過頭來，我們自己也會加強品質的規範以及排氣標準的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣不行啊！你們不能發生問題再重新來體檢，其實它在產出之前，你就要確認了。"],["沈次長志修：當然有，剛剛委員所關心的戴奧辛部分，我們的標準就是用0.1奈克，這個部分也是歐盟的標準。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望都不會產生戴奧辛，你只要給它一個空間，這是危害人體……"],["沈次長志修：這個標準是國際的標準，它也不能超標。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我可以選擇不要這樣傷害人體的物質。"],["沈次長志修：我們也希望生產、生活的過程都不要產生廢棄物，但是沒有辦法，垃圾一定會產生，我們要從源頭減量，如果一旦產生了，我們用好的方法去處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長，我們希望整個SRF的產生、設廠要嚴謹嚴格監督，包含原料來源、生產過程、產品品質以及存放。本席接獲民眾陳情，就是它怎麼存放在那裡，東北季風一吹，味道會那麼重？"],["沈次長志修：這個就是我們要……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有沒有到過現場？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，當然有，有一些是原料的部分、燃料的部分，它必須要去做覆蓋……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以SRF燃料只要產生出來，放在那裡就會有臭味嗎？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個我們臺灣真的能用嗎？我在第10屆來不及監督……"],["沈次長志修：我們也跟地方政府環保局一起到現場去監督過，有問題我們會請它改善。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我真的覺得你們的品管有問題。"],["沈次長志修：委員，如果你對這個部分有願意進一步瞭解，我們也可以安排委員來看。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是只有這一家……"],["沈次長志修：我知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是你為了要在臺灣大量運用SRF，真的不要減了碳，結果我們全民的健康賠進去。"],["沈次長志修：當然不會，它一定是在我們的監控之下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在就發生了！"],["沈次長志修：有的話，環保局就會告發，它就要改善，民眾的陳情我們有注意到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在已經發生了，真的不要在冷氣房做任何的決策跟判斷。"],["沈次長志修：不會、不會，我們實地去看過了，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你實地到哪裡看過？"],["沈次長志修：你講的那家廠我就看過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後呢？你覺得OK？"],["沈次長志修：我們有看過，目前它的連線，就是剛剛講戴奧辛的前驅物質是立即要連線跟地方環保局……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要一直講理論！"],["沈次長志修：實務上就是這樣監控。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我請部長和次長哪一天來站在那邊，我們一起在那邊站1小時，不要戴口罩試試看，好不好？謝謝。"],["沈次長志修：謝謝。"],["主席：部長、次長，它的原料就是垃圾，垃圾就會有惡臭，你們要注意這個問題。","現在請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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報告，現在行政院已經有政務委員來專責處理這件事情，所以這個新的組織跟責任，我想幾個月內應該會出來。"],["王委員育敏：我希望年底就要出來，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們反映一下。"],["王委員育敏：這個不上路，民眾會覺得我們的光電裡面就是夾雜著很多弊端，表示政府打擊這些弊案的力道還不足，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們會把這個當作第一命題，努力來快速的達成。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們希望年底可以出來，把機制訂好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：應該會，謝謝。"],["主席：請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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[["蔡委員易餘：（12時33分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部部長跟台電董事長。"],["主席：請郭部長、曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。昨天院會的時候，針對台電虧損的狀況，本席也提出了質詢；我們當然也期待特別預算可以獲得朝野共識，一起來審查這個特別預算，讓台電可以有這樣的財源挹注。但若國民黨或民眾黨不願意通過這個特別預算，台電公司為了這兩千億，就會很頭疼，就要想辦法了，是不是這樣？如果沒有這筆特別預算，請問你們的備案規劃是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：就一個企業來講，不要說求利，因為是國營事業，在不虧錢的情況下，來經營這個公司，是他們努力的方向。如果沒有這兩千億來彌補財務問題的話，就像委員昨天所指導的，也許我們可以從利息上面去調整，去借貸更便宜的利息；其次是台電同仁的薪水，可能就是獎金的部分，大家稍微降一下……"],["蔡委員易餘：我看最好不要這樣子……"],["郭部長智輝：這也不是我們願意的嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：去動到台電同仁的福利，我覺得不好，畢竟他們也這麼打拚。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思是，一般企業經營大概都是會這樣，國營企業不會這樣，我們不會去動到員工的薪酬。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，如果真出現這兩千億沒辦法來挹注的時候，也許就得思考其他的方案，可以再來研究……"],["郭部長智輝：我們再請大家來指導。"],["蔡委員易餘：我昨天也說了，因為台電公司扮演著物價「防波堤」的角色，過去它都擋在第一線，如果遇到產業寒冬的時候，就由台電負擔電價的損失；如果遇到物價上漲的時候，民生用電的部分凍漲，也是穩住物價的一環。所以台電公司的角色很重要。依部長的想像與規劃，未來很多責任不應該再完全讓台電扛在第一線，就這個說法來看，是不是我們中央政府也就是行政院自己就要扛在第一線？幫台電來分擔？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會請其他單位來協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是大家一起來協助。過去可能有一些對農漁業、弱勢團體、社福團體的補助，就由他們自己來編列預算，台電就少了這部分的支出。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：這對台電來說，也可以減少負擔。本席再講一個跟產業有關的議題，這次電價漲了12.5%，我們考慮到產業消退的狀態，所以我們以113年上半年度用電衰退15%為基準點，衰退15%以上的產業就凍漲，衰退5%至15%者就減半。但我後來也接收到很多產業向我反映，他們說只用113年用電衰退、產業銷售額衰退作為基準，會產生一個問題，比如我上次質詢時提到，傳統的鋼鐵業在兩年前俄烏戰爭發生時，就已經衰退，已經盪到谷底，113年上半年，他們就已經在谷底了，就這麼慘了，也不可能再慘個15%給你看。相對之下，你說他是用電大戶，電價是他很大的成本，可是這個產業衰退是在兩年前，俄烏戰爭發生時，就已經衰退到了谷底。所以，現在看起來我們的這一個制度，並沒辦法充分反映現在很多傳統產業因為用電成本上升，他們所面對的壓力。除了鋼鐵業，還有螺絲、重金屬業，也都有這樣的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，電價訂價委員會裡面有很多的專家跟學者，可能當初在訂定這個價的時候，這個部分沒有被提出來，作為他們的參考。我們每年有兩次調整電價，電價不一定只往上調，也有可能往下調。委員指教的這一點，我會提到12月的電價諮詢委員會，請他們參考。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，因為很多產業的狀況，以前就已經反映……"],["郭部長智輝：對，不能以這麼短的時間來做評估。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果用這麼短的時間來論定的話，基本上會有相對的剝奪感。這是第一點。"],["郭部長智輝：是。謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二點，台電公司面對產業這樣的衰退，電價凍漲或是減半，我看也是台電要負擔，是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣說起來，我也覺得自我矛盾，一方面希望解決台電的問題，一方面又覺得很多產業需要用電上的照顧，因為他們真的沒有成長，我知道自己在這一題的論述會有矛盾，所以回到要台電當產業的防波堤、物價的防波堤這一點，我認為經濟部本身也應該編列部分的預算幫助台電，一起協助這幾年遇到景氣寒冬的產業。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我認為台電的問題有兩件事情，不是補助或不補助，而是讓台電所有的創電成本能夠降低；第二個，台電的經營效率要能夠提升，從本身的體質來改造，我不希望台電的電價是會再漲的……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！當然啦！"],["郭部長智輝：因為電力是國力，所以我們希望大家可以用到比較便宜的電，這個是我們努力的方向，我們現在台電一直朝這個方向，包括怎麼樣提高創電的效率、怎麼樣在營運的效率上面來提升、減少成本的墊高，這是我們努力的方向，所以我才……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這是一直要這樣做、一直要保持的，但是我們現在要解決的是過去兩年成本的提高，造成大幅的虧損，所以我們現在短期內是遇到這個壓力……"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望能夠改善我們財務上面的問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個改善不只是現在，應該是持續都要做好改善的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，過去的虧損，也希望能夠改善。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒錯啊！第二個，我再用1分鐘的時間就好，跟部長再就教一下，現在我們好多產業真的都是被中國資金所侵略，尤其是一些我們看不到的產業，其中有兩個很有名的吳宗憲，像演藝界的吳宗憲投資LED，後來整個被中國廉價的LED打趴了；我們立法院的吳宗憲在8月的時候也開了一個記者會，他說整個陸資都遁入新加坡或者是香港，同時把臺灣的帷幕牆，帷幕牆就是我們在蓋房子外面暫時包起來的那個，這些全部都被中國貨給壟斷了。你看連國民黨的吳宗憲委員都有跳出來說了，那我們經濟部有正視帷幕牆被陸資壟斷的狀況嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：只要有業者反映，我們都會列入檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：這件事情業者已經有反映了喔！他們的公會事實上都在反映，已經被陸資攻城掠地到，連我們臺灣臺北未來的一個指標──雙子星建設，也都是用陸資的帷幕牆。"],["郭部長智輝：我們回部以後會來了解這個問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，連我們臺灣未來指標的一個建案，都已經被中國攻城掠地了。對他們陸資的審核，是否足以嚴格？足以排除那些陸資，他們現在都是假借新加坡最多，我們認為，就這個部分，中國就是有他們的競爭力，他們就是用價格優勢在攻擊，我們臺灣當然在這部分要做好自己的自我防護，我們經濟部站在第一線，當然要幫它審查好。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，我們會建立這個基準來嚴審，然後您剛才所指正的那個案子，我們已經退掉了。"],["蔡委員易餘：有退掉了？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我了解，那再繼續保持。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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推薦函來來來部長部長今天齁今天有個廠商一個詐欺集團他跟你講說叫你要發推薦函 你可不可以說發了推薦函跟你沒關係你可以跟我講發了推薦函跟你沒關係嗎"},{"start":298.803,"end":314.835,"text":"推薦行跟推薦的單位當然是有關係嘛但是這個上面沒有法律的這個依據嘛今天你用中央政府壓地方政府現在事後推沒有法律沒關係我跟你講這一點關於區的民眾已經可以公判了"},{"start":315.555,"end":333.703,"text":"你從人民的角度當初看的就是經濟部的推薦函你現在跟我講推薦函沒有效率就是所謂的誤會一場你這個說法你能夠說服觀音區的民眾的話那我告訴你我這邊建議部長啦你就去那邊睡個兩個晚上你看看觀音的人會不會接受你這個說法"},{"start":335.044,"end":361.345,"text":"SRF的發電廠好啦好啦我知道啦反正發推薦函推薦函沒有法律效力發推薦函不關你的事就這麼簡單我非常的尊敬你你講得非常有禮但是我必須要依法行事嘛法、理、情你講得都非常有道理照文稅兩篇我有同情跟管這不能夠違法啊"},{"start":364.587,"end":386.449,"text":"經濟部根據哪一個法律發推薦函的啊政策表述推薦嘛哪一個法律啊講給我聽啊法律名稱我們不是依哪一個法律嗎謝謝你口口聲聲依法行政連發推薦函法律依據都說不出來我告訴你依今天經濟部高興行政啦謝謝你啦謝謝你"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1136,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時26分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。請問你去過桃園觀音區嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有，當然也就不可能跟桃園觀音區的民眾有實際的交流！"],["郭部長智輝：業務上都沒有。"],["羅委員智強：我曾在桃園觀音區的馬路邊睡了兩個晚上，你知道為什麼嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不清楚！"],["羅委員智強：因為那時候民進黨政府答應觀音的民眾藻礁要永存，本席在那裡睡了兩個晚上，陪著觀音的民眾想要守護藻礁，結果也沒用，照樣開發。本席後來再去觀音好幾趟，部長猜得到什麼原因嗎？跟今天的主題有關，就是SRF的設廠！您知道觀音人的態度是什麼嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我沒有觀音人的朋友，所以我不太清楚，沒有這個訊息。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，觀音的朋友覺得很悲情。事實上，以過去的選舉分析來看，民進黨在觀音區的得票率向來都很高，可是觀音人現在不理解的是，他們珍視的藻礁被破壞，現在還要把三家SRF發電廠放在觀音區，我去過觀音區好多次，顯然民眾的這個心聲，我們政府沒有聽進去。對於這三家SRF廠商的進駐，桃園市政府和地方居民曾多次向經濟部表達反對。我記得在總質詢的時候，部長說過這個主導權跟決定權在桃園市政府，部長還認為主導權跟決定權是在桃園市政府嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["羅委員智強：還是？"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["羅委員智強：事實上，桃園市政府已經兩次撤銷三家廠商的入園許可。我直接說，這不就是標準的兩手策略─經濟部一方面說尊重地方主管機關的決定，卻也要尊重訴願會的決定，訴願結果推翻桃園市政府的決定。部長到現在還真的認為SRF設或不設，是桃園市政府說了算嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：規定就是這個樣子。"],["羅委員智強：規定嗎？實際上，他們說他們不設！舉個例子來說，我今天中午想吃排骨飯，可是你一手抓走排骨，放了一塊焢肉在裡面，卻跟我說我可以決定吃排骨飯。訴願會不就是這樣嗎？他們駁了桃園市政府……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，訴願會不是經濟部。"],["羅委員智強：我不是說訴願會是經濟部，我要講的是，訴願會駁回這件事，桃園市政府還如你邏輯上所說的，能夠主導跟決定這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：那就是桃園市政府送到訴願會的內容，訴願會認為不對，然後把它退回……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！又推給桃園市政府，桃園市政府的錯，對不對？當初SRF之所以能設廠，最關鍵的文件是什麼？你總不會不知道吧！"],["郭部長智輝：最關鍵的文件？"],["羅委員智強：就是經濟部的推薦函，經濟部推薦之後……"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的推薦函是沒有法律的……"],["羅委員智強：厲害！經濟部在這邊不負責任的說你的推薦函沒有法律效力，那你發什麼推薦函？多此一舉嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：那不一定啊！委員寫的推薦函難道沒有影響力嗎？影響力不見得是錯的。"],["羅委員智強：部長，今天有一個廠商，（是一個詐欺集團）要你幫他發推薦函，你可以跟我講幫他發推薦函跟你沒有關係嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：推薦函跟推薦的單位當然是有關係……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你喔！有關係……"],["郭部長智輝：但是這個上面沒有法律的依據嘛！"],["羅委員智強：今天你用中央政府來壓地方政府，事後推說沒有法律依據。沒關係，對於這一點，觀音區的民眾已經可以公判！從人民的角度，當初看的就是經濟部的推薦函，你現在跟我說推薦函沒有效力，這是誤會一場。你的這種說法能夠說服觀音區的民眾的話我建議部長就去那邊睡兩個晚上，看看觀音區的民眾會不會接受你這個說法。"],["郭部長智輝：我可以了解，但是公家機關就是依法行事……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，好啦，我知道啦！反正你發推薦函，推薦函沒有法律效力，發了推薦函也不關你的事！就這麼簡單！"],["郭部長智輝：你談的是非常有道理，我非常尊敬你……"],["羅委員智強：我不需要你的尊敬，我只希望你去心疼觀音區的民眾。"],["郭部長智輝：你講的非常有理；但我必須要依法行事。法、理、情，你講的都非常有道理。委員要我去睡兩天，我很同情，但我還是不能夠違法……"],["羅委員智強：請問經濟部是根據哪個法律規定發推薦函的？"],["郭部長智輝：政策表示推薦嘛！"],["羅委員智強：是哪一個法律名稱，講給我聽啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們不是依哪一個法律……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你喔！口口聲聲說依法行政，連發推薦函的法律依據是什麼都說不出來！我告訴你，就是依經濟部今天高興行政啦！謝謝你啦！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝你。"],["主席：部長可能不知道，經濟部有開專案會議，是官方的專案會議，並不是只有推薦函。謝謝。","請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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因為我知道你是去年才升總經理的嘛 是是當初這一段你有沒有參與 報委我沒有參與你沒有參與嘛 跟委員報告我們目前也沒有接到任何說要我們釋出農地然後要做農電共生的這個指示到目前為止沒有嘛 是是是我要拜託台堂齁 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人家還有很多選擇阿 你以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講 那是很大的選擇欸可是從外國來看喔 歐盟來看喔 零工經濟 我不願意當一個全職的工作者 他有可能有四種類型欸"},{"start":421.977,"end":442.575,"text":"第一種積極型的第二種臨時性勞工第三型的是勉強型的零工零工經驗第4種叫財務緊張型的零工你是不得不被迫去從事零工的他想要做全職卻做不到可是我要跟你講是積極型的零工"},{"start":443.596,"end":452.081,"text":"人口數有多少?你知道嗎?占整體勞動力市場的比例有多高?你知道嗎?這對整體勞動力的影響對整體產業的影響是什麼?你知道要怎麼因應嗎?外國已經走在前面給我們看了而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理"},{"start":464.393,"end":483.009,"text":"緊急型的、零工、經濟型的這些勞工他們是主動選擇兼職而且以這種兼職為主要收入在英國有400萬人占全體勞動力的32%我們的部分工時者只有3.76%"},{"start":485.171,"end":486.072,"text":"英國是32%德國29%有600萬人法國有29%有400萬人西班牙有26%瑞典有33%"},{"start":497.369,"end":511.173,"text":"我是要跟你講部分工時者占全體勞工的比例在日本是29.93%在英國是23.18%在德國是22%在荷蘭37.3%在澳洲是25%這個數據代表什麼意義你可不可以在這裡告訴我你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來"},{"start":525.666,"end":544.178,"text":"當然先進國家其實在這部分的比例都比我們高這是這是沒有錯的可是說真的部分工時的這樣的人數多是不是一個好的現象這是一個值得探討我現在就在問你說這未來是會變成什麼狀況我就問你啊我沒有說這是好的勒"},{"start":545.458,"end":563.31,"text":"我沒有肯定這種現象欸但我剛剛就問你這麼多的部分工時的比例高比例對未來如果我們以此為鑑我們應該要採取因應的政策是什麼而對台灣如果從3.76上升到5.76到6.76而這樣的狀況對台灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況影響會是什麼"},{"start":576.96,"end":587.711,"text":"你都沒有評估沒有政策上的看到未來10年20年後你現在不提出因應的策略你在這裡只告訴大家我不會繼續開放大量開放外勞外籍移工這樣搞不搞你的眼光要看在哪裡啦"},{"start":596.055,"end":605.942,"text":"那如果再話再講回來這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升年輕人為什麼要這樣子你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":608.462,"end":625.498,"text":"我剛剛講的數據你回答不出來說從這裡看到什麼危機產業的危機勞動力的危機當然他也帶另一種產業也是一種心機可是呢我從勞動力不足這個角度切入你來告訴我要怎麼因應會有什麼問題"},{"start":630.237,"end":648.669,"text":"當然年輕人他們現在比較比較會往這個方向移動這也是事實啦所以當然我們也可以因應這個新的新興的這樣的林宮經濟的勞動型態我們也必須去研擬相關的這樣子的一個如果從我剛剛講如果從這個"},{"start":652.291,"end":661.756,"text":"四十三點三萬部分工時者那大幅增加到六十萬七十萬如果是零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主遏止而是大家主動年輕人有能力的年輕人他主動積極型的他這種零工經濟的勞工自顧者他不是勞工抱歉他可能是獨立工作者和自顧者"},{"start":677.915,"end":682.636,"text":"年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自顧者的比例大幅上升我想是這樣啦我想這是整個典範轉移的問題是啊就是說我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊整個勞動部它的包括就業的新的經濟模式還有新的勞動模型形式的轉換了那你的因應的策略是什麼"},{"start":706.69,"end":707.731,"text":"您就這樣抽象的一句話,年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理?"},{"start":726.049,"end":729.951,"text":"還有這個yes123yes123人家這個求職網都大數據在那裡剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡林老師要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣林老師要這麼說人家是大數據分析耶yes123求職網他們調查發現"},{"start":749.441,"end":751.603,"text":"上班族認為有跨產業職場經歷的跨產業兩種以上產業的就就業保證他認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%跨領域技能的他們會得到就業保證的他們認為有79.1%再來講說"},{"start":767.977,"end":782.331,"text":"對台灣的上班族來說想成為主修零工經濟學的斜槓勞工比例有多高你知道嗎從yes123的求職網調查顯示有高達九成三92.6%的人表示有成為斜槓族同時有兩種職務職稱的意願"},{"start":790.879,"end":801.708,"text":"多於2022年的91.2%更創下6年以來的新高這是事實已經正在發生的事實"},{"start":803.308,"end":821.119,"text":"而為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的?因為來自歐洲國家的研究他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度啊很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊輪班加班的我不做啦工作太勞累的我不做可是你還看到"},{"start":822.8,"end":845.998,"text":"這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作不接受長工時因為我們要有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人除非你帶給我的報酬是相當於你的高工時是付出是有代價有回報的而你知道你剛才講這麼多你都還停留在這個低薪的狀況本來勞動力的供給少於"},{"start":849.401,"end":878.233,"text":"那個勞動力的需求價格是應該上升的上升不上去而現在如果上升不上去我何必為了多一千多兩千然後在那裡賣我的肝呢所以呢在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時也牽扯到薪低薪在這種狀況裡面低薪的正職長工時加班賺那幾百元人家不要了"},{"start":879.491,"end":895.19,"text":"所以我們需要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情還有要低薪就是年輕人不婚不生然後少子女化的原因主因之一啊而你現在嫁"},{"start":895.811,"end":913.114,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":913.274,"end":926.283,"text":"都是你主責的我今天要講這個然後我問你你講的好像我不開放即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎主委可以嗎啊部長抱歉開放大量的移工更多的人你不要在這裡說你擋住了你沒有擋住你就可以解決這個問題嗎"},{"start":945.185,"end":946.489,"text":"流用就可以解決了嗎?"},{"start":946.489,"end":946.73,"text":"流用就可以解決了嗎?"},{"start":952.619,"end":968.612,"text":"我現在告訴你日韓也在搶外籍移工當然有人講日韓因應搶工大潮日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足修正了移民法未來他們要在當時要預計5年要引進34萬人但是當然現在事實上5年過去了沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人"},{"start":982.603,"end":1010.822,"text":"但是他們修了什麼?他們修了移工要跟日本國民相同的最低工資介於16到20萬日元現在可能更高了所以新台幣是4到5萬元基本工資比我們高耶工作滿5年以後通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權還可以帶家人來同住還可以自由轉換雇主"},{"start":1012.623,"end":1029.771,"text":"人家韓國政府也一直在修正欸以前這個韓國跟我們一樣太早依賴人力仲介然後也引進的時候沒有任何的訓練語言訓練也沒有就直接這樣子然後不當的剝削仲介不當的剝削層出不窮所以他們在2003年修正了他們從2003年就採取了國對國的職聘模式"},{"start":1039.196,"end":1053.909,"text":"外籍移工也跟本國的韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護而且政府職聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工的費用所以人家有動機往日本韓國前進"},{"start":1061.96,"end":1081.696,"text":"我們移工逃跑率最高的越南現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群而且國際移工零付費這種狀況我們真的會有遠遠不絕的外籍移工可以輸入台灣嗎?逃走如果被逼下去人們優先要去日本、韓國要不要優先來這裡嗎?你以為在找印度就可以遠遠不絕嗎?"},{"start":1092.426,"end":1103.176,"text":"開放移工是解決的方法嗎?即便開放移工,難道你的移工管理政策﹑法律面﹑制度面都不用再檢討嗎?"},{"start":1106.348,"end":1125.183,"text":"我們的成年大家成科講了幾遍又幾遍的都不用嗎?好最後我再講一點啦我再講一點我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決這個勞動力缺口的問題而主計處他主計已經做了一個統計了"},{"start":1126.684,"end":1128.045,"text":"我剛剛講說這個失業失業41.2萬人當中有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業主因待遇不符而期望而我現在在這裡25到64歲"},{"start":1144.736,"end":1155.524,"text":"主要工作年齡的非勞動力中仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人你知道嗎你說我們缺工6.6萬你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬你知道嗎主席出了統計喔幾萬你知道嗎部長你知道嗎不知道書長你知道嗎不知道"},{"start":1167.677,"end":1169.94,"text":"這個是主席處的統計資料你也看一下人有就業意願的有18.8萬人你缺工6.6萬台灣有18.8萬的25到64歲的人他還想要就業"},{"start":1185.27,"end":1189.432,"text":"而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中女性占了72%她的沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人不管是老的、失能的或小的"},{"start":1206.949,"end":1215.841,"text":"所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下把女性老的跟小的托老托幼的顧失能的國家扛起這個責任"},{"start":1224.091,"end":1228.714,"text":"我們的勞動力缺口,這裡可以補很多,補很大,我已經講過N次了。您就直接跟他說,我不會開放大量的外籍移工進來,這是正本清源的方法嗎?問題還是仍然存在,白天找不到,會有的沒人要送,對不對?"},{"start":1245.305,"end":1245.465,"text":"謝謝林淑芬"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1026,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時1分）主席、各位大家午安。是不是還是請何部長？"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我想這幾天媒體做了很多缺工的專題，當然最驚悚的是未來9年65歲以上要退出職場的有378萬人這樣的一個標題，但是同時它也說到，過去10年15到29歲投入勞動力市場的，這10年裡面跟過去相比少了16萬人。總的來說，就是年紀高的人要退出職場，當然他們還會也有一部分再重新回來，但大多數是要退出的，那再比較年輕人新投入的部分，因為少子化，勢必這個缺口會越來越擴大，這個是存在於人口結構上的問題，這個問題並不是說他有沒有再回流。","但是根據中時這一份報導，它裡面我比較感興趣的是「臺灣10月人才缺口最大前五大產業」，這個人數統計我不曉得怎麼統計來的，我就姑且不說啦！它的資料來源是104銀行。但是我們可以從產業別來看，缺口最大的是住宿、餐飲服務業，再來是批發、零售、傳直銷業，也有一般製造業及建築營造業，然後它是講今年10月哦！如果從2021到2030年，它是用勞發署的資料去推估的，「平均每年需求人數前五大職業」，勞發署署長知道是什麼工作嗎？不知道，好，沒關係，不知道你也要看報紙啊！報紙都替你登了，你還不看！在這裡是商業及行政助理專業人員、銷售及展示工作人員，採礦、營建、製造及運輸勞力工，還有個人服務工作人員等等。","我為什麼要講這個？講這個問題要先來看，因為奇怪了，如果按照104，104同時還有一份調查，它的調查是這樣子的，104人力銀行的「玩數據」，他們發現幾十萬的年輕人求職裡面，其實他們最想要的工作就是中時報導的這幾個行業別和職業別、產業別，為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想……"],["林委員淑芬：年輕人最想要去做的，投履歷最多的就是這幾個產業，而這幾個產業也號稱是缺工人數最多的，為什麼？這個現象是什麼意思，你可以告訴我嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個是民間的人力公司……"],["林委員淑芬：難道民間的數據毫無參考性嗎？完全都不值得一看嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：它當然可以參考，可是委員……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在問你的是，為什麼同樣是104，他們根據求職上網，用百萬求職的人去統計年輕人求職意願，他們最想要從事的工作，登記最多的就是中國時報在講的人才缺口最大的這幾個？都是低技術的，這兩種現象同時存在是什麼意思？你可以假設大概是什麼狀況嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想民間他們在調查的詢問方式……"],["林委員淑芬：你的意思是說他們問的方式有問題，我現在告訴你，因為這一類的產業，你講不出來，我就試著替你解讀啦！我覺得你一直在規避問題，說民間的調查方法有問題或者是他們問的引導性不一樣，但我現在看到的不是這樣子，我看到的是這幾類產業低技術性，服務業、住宿餐飲、批發零售、行政助理這種低技術性，年輕人進入的門檻最低，而且最容易入手就有工作，因為它缺工缺很大，馬上有工作，但是因為待遇太低了，所以做不久就會流動，看到的現象就是這樣子。它們一直在缺工，可是年輕人最容易上手，找工作找這一類馬上有，你懂，那這種問題要怎麼處理？這是什麼意思？部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，您這個結論我也同意啊！確實我們在……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！你剛才講不出來啊！你同意個屁！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，不要這樣……"],["林委員淑芬：剛才請你講，你為什麼不能好好地講一下呢？"],["何部長佩珊：你沒有時間給我講。"],["林委員淑芬：那我現在問你，這個現象、這個問題要怎麼處理？"],["何部長佩珊：對，委員，我剛剛也有回答前面委員的詢問……"],["林委員淑芬：你剛剛說的，整個早上我聽起來，你就說你看！我都撐住了，我沒有繼續開放外籍移工，我連警戒指標都訂出來了，我不會讓雇主要尋求低薪，可是你還是要解決問題啊！非典型工作人數逐年上升，你知道去年部分工時者上升到幾萬人嗎？非典型工作。"],["何部長佩珊：80.6萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：我講部分工時者。"],["何部長佩珊：非典工作者，我們現在統計有80.6萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：我在講部分工者，因為非典還包括臨時性和人力派遣，我不要講臨時性跟人力派遣，我就問你部分工時者，一個禮拜做不到30小時的人。"],["何部長佩珊：那請委員指示。"],["林委員淑芬：每一項都請委員指示，我告訴你為什麼這個東西很重要，因為這種部分工時者去年已經到43.3萬人，占總就業人口數3.76%，可是你知道2022年是多少嗎？41.5萬人。一年成長多少人？將近2萬人，大家是主動的想要成為部分工時者，還是被動的？如果再講現在這一些非典型就業，我們總的勞動力退出的很多，新進的已經很少了，而年輕人新進到職場裡面，他選擇的不一定是要全職工作耶！為什麼你知道嗎？對啊！人家還有很多選擇啊！以零工經濟或是斜槓經濟來講，當然是很大的選擇耶！","可是從外國來看、歐盟來看，零工經濟，我不願意當一個全職的工作者，可能有四種類型，第一種是積極型零工；第二種是臨時性勞工；第三種是勉強型零工；零工經濟還有第四種，叫財務緊張型零工，他是不得不，被迫去從事零工的，他想要做全職卻做不到。我要跟你講的是積極型零工，人口數有多少你知道嗎？占整體勞動力市場的比例有多高你知道嗎？這對整體勞動力的影響，對整體產業的影響是什麼，你知道要怎麼因應嗎？外國已經走在前面給我們看了，而我們都還不曉得要怎麼處理積極型零工、零工經濟的這些勞工，他們是主動選擇兼職，而且以這種兼職為主要收入，在英國有400萬人占總體勞動力32%，我們的部分工時者只有3.76%耶！英國是32%，德國是29%，有600萬人；法國是29%，有400萬人；西班牙有26%，瑞典有33%。我是要跟你講，部分工時者占全體勞工的比例，在日本是29.93%，在英國是23.18%，在德國是22%，在荷蘭37.3%，在澳洲是25%，這個數據代表什麼意義，你可不可以在這裡告訴我？你從這個數據看到什麼危機或是看到什麼未來？"],["何部長佩珊：當然先進國家在這部分的比例都比我們高，這是沒有錯的，可是說真的，部分工時的人數多是不是一個好的現象，這是一個值得探討的問題。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在就在問你未來會變成什麼狀況，我就要問你啊！我沒有說這是好的耶！"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有肯定這種現象耶！但我剛才就問你……"],["何部長佩珊：因為零工經濟意味著……"],["林委員淑芬：這麼多部分工時的比例，高比例，如果我們以此為鑑，未來我們應該要採取的因應政策是什麼？臺灣如果從3.76%上升到5.76%，到6.76%，這對臺灣本來勞動力因為少子化就缺口這麼大的狀況，影響會是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：當然我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：你都沒有評估，沒有在政策上看到未來10年、20年後，你現在不提出因應的策略，你在這裡只是告訴大家我不會繼續大量開放外勞、外籍移工，這樣足夠嗎？你的眼光要看在哪裡啦？話再講回來，這些非典型工作部分工時者人數逐年上升，年輕人為什麼要這樣子？你可以告訴我嗎？我剛剛講的數據，你回答不出來從這裡看到什麼危機，產業的危機、勞動力的危機，當然對另一種產業也是一種新機，可是我從勞動力不足這個角度切入，你來告訴我要怎麼因應，會有什麼問題。"],["何部長佩珊：當然年輕人他們現在比較會往這個方向移動，這也是事實啦！所以當然我們也可以因應新興的零工經濟的勞動型態，我們必須去研擬相關因應的保護，或者是……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛剛講，如果從43.3萬部分工時者大幅增加到60萬、70萬，零工經濟不是因為財務緊迫或是雇主惡質，而是大家主動，有能力的年輕人他是主動積極型的這種零工經濟的勞工，他是自僱者不是勞工，抱歉，他可能是獨立工作者和自僱者，年輕人作為一個獨立工作者和自僱者的比例大幅上升，這樣子……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想是這樣啦！這是整個典範轉移的問題。"],["林委員淑芬：是啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是，就是說……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在就要提醒你這個問題啊！"],["何部長佩珊：整個勞動部，包括就業促進的思維或者是……"],["林委員淑芬：新的經濟模式，還有新的勞動形式轉換了，那你的因應策略是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：是啦！當然我們整個就業促進的型態是不是也要因此改變，這個模式有沒有必要變更，這也是我們要去思考的，我們會來努力檢討，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：你就這樣抽象的一句話，年輕人為什麼覺得躺平有道理？還有，yes123求職網的大數據在那裡，剛剛講的104也是大數據在那裡，你老是要挑戰104跟123民間的調查數據跟你們不一樣，你老是要這麼說，人家是大數據分析耶！yes123求職網他們調查發現，上班族認為有「跨產業職場經歷」，跨產業，兩種以上產業的，他們認為比較有就業保證的是66.1%。認為擁有「跨領域技能」就會得到就業保證的有79.1%。再來，對臺灣的上班族來說，想成為主修「零工經濟學」的斜槓勞工，比例有多高你知道嗎？從yes123求職網調查顯示，有高達九成三（92.6%）的人表示，有成為「斜槓族：同時有兩種以上職務、職稱」的意願，比例多於2022年的91.2%，更創下6年以來的新高啊！這是事實，已經正在發生的事實。","為什麼年輕人覺得躺平是有道理的？因為來自歐洲國家的研究，他們覺得降低工時真的會增加快樂的程度。很多人都覺得年輕人找工作都嫌工時太長啊！輪班、加班的我不做啦！工作太勞累的我不做，可是你要看到，這些人為什麼他們寧可選擇兼職工作，不接受長工時？因為我們擁有更多的時間和自由要陪伴家人，除非你帶給我的報酬相當於我的高工時付出是有代價、有回報的，而你知道你剛剛講這麼多，你都還停留在低薪的狀況。本來勞動力的供給少於勞動力的需求，價格應該是上升的，現在如果上升不上去，我何必為了多1,000元、多2,000元，然後在那裡賣我的肝呢？所以在這種狀況裡面就牽扯到工時，也牽扯到低薪，低薪的正職然後長工時，加班賺那幾百元，人家不要了！","所以我們要正面去看待年輕人排斥高工時的工作這件事情，還有低薪，就是年輕人不婚不生，是少子女化的主因之一啊！而你現在假又給得少，工時又長，所以他更不願意，現在因為少子化更缺工，陷入惡性循環，很核心的業務都在你這裡，工時、假、薪資都是你主責的，我今天要講這個。然後我問你，你講得好像我不開放，即便我跟大家講開放更多的外籍移工，就可以解決這個結構性的問題嗎？部長，可以嗎？開放大量的移工，更多的人，你不要在這裡說你擋住了，你沒有擋住就可以解決這個問題嗎？留用就可以解決了嗎？部長，可以嗎？","我現在告訴你，日韓也在搶外籍移工啦！剛剛有人講日韓因應搶工大潮，日本修法以優厚的條件吸引移工，日本政府在2019年終於承認他們勞動力不足，修正了移民法，在當時預計5年要引進34萬人，當然現在事實上5年過去了，沒有辦法馬上引進這麼多人，但是他們修了什麼？他們修了讓移工跟日本國民相同的最低工資，介於16到20萬日圓，現在可能更高了，新臺幣是4到5萬元，基本工資比我們高耶！4到5萬元，工作滿5年以後，通過語言技能檢測就可以申請永久居留權，還可以帶家人同住，還可以自由轉換雇主。","人家韓國政府也一直在修正耶！以前韓國跟我們一樣太早倚賴人力仲介，在引進的時候沒有任何的訓練，語言訓練也沒有，就直接這樣子，然後仲介不當的剝削層出不窮，所以他們在2003年修正了，他們從2003年就採取了國對國的直聘模式，外籍移工也跟韓國的勞工享有同等的勞動保護，而且政府直聘也降低了移工輸出國的移工費用，所以人家有動機，會往日本、韓國前進。我們移工逃跑率最高的越南，現在是日本最大宗的外籍族群，而且國際移工零付費這種狀況，我們真的會有源源不絕的外籍移工可以輸入臺灣嗎？條件一比下去，人家會優先去日本、韓國，他會優先來這裡嗎？你以為再找印度就可以源源不絕嗎？開放移工是解決的方法嗎？"],["主席：委員，時間的關係，是不是趕快做一個……"],["林委員淑芬：好，即便開放移工，難道你的移工管理政策在法律面、制度面都不用再檢討嗎？陳年的沉痾大家講了幾遍又幾遍了，都不用嗎？","最後我再講一點，我一直說女性勞動參與率提高也可以解決勞動力缺口的問題，而主計處已經做了一個統計，我剛剛講失業的41.2萬人當中，有15.8萬人曾遇有可以工作的機會卻沒有就業，主因是待遇不符合期望，而我現在在這裡提問，25到64歲主要工作年齡的非勞動力中，仍然有就業意願的有幾萬人，你知道嗎？你說我們缺口6.6萬人，你知道25到64歲有就業意願的人有幾萬，你知道嗎？主計處的統計喔！你知道幾萬嗎？部長，你知道嗎？不知道；署長，你知道嗎？不知道。這個是主計處的統計資料，你也看一看，仍有就業意願的有18.8萬人，你缺工6.6萬人，臺灣有18.8萬25到64歲的人，他還想要就業。"],["主席：委員，因為時間已經超過很多。"],["林委員淑芬：好，抱歉，那我不講了，我的意思是說，而沒有就業意願的286萬人當中，女性占了72%，她沒有就業意願是因為她被綁在照顧家人，不管是老的、失能的或小的，所以這個國家把女性的勞參率解決一下，解決女性勞參率就是要把老的跟小的、托老、托幼的、顧失能的，讓國家扛起這個責任，我們的勞動力缺口這裡可以補很多、補很大，我已經講過N次了，你們只會跟我們說不會開放大量的外籍移工進來，這是正本清源的方法嗎？問題仍然存在，綁鐵工找不到，貨運也沒有人要送，對不對？各行各業，不是只有講中高技術人才短缺，各種各行各業，因為人口結構的問題一直存在那裡，部長，你要更積極。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156320","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156320","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adef03a54574aee214fb22eacfd31272a3df293381db574b3e97d6d5c14b1ef24585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"12:07:02 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報告委員我們這些都是滾動式的這個在調整就是說我們還是與時俱進所以那個是我們的目標但是實際上我們一定要"},{"start":309.444,"end":326.89,"text":"基於實際的狀況我們來努力我們希望你們都能答出來也不是部長說了16%我現在早上大家都在問你這個16%的問題這個是當天你有16%但是每個委員問你就是你平均值是打多少目前都是8到10而已啦"},{"start":327.15,"end":327.47,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":357.261,"end":379.93,"text":"臺電你的歸咎你的責任部分是最高的2021年的話你的責任是40.9%你的2022年是42%2023年是又再提高到46.5%這都是你的責任你說強振電網在做配電升級也在做為什麼你們的臺電發生的這個這個責任歸屬的地方還是一直在提高呢"},{"start":380.883,"end":383.186,"text":"已經每年都在做了,要減少你們台電發生問題啊?"},{"start":399.986,"end":418.361,"text":"對你們責任一直在提高是都是因為你們的責任才發生在停電的問題這個就是因為在隨著時間所以那個設備每一年都會增加這個老的這個狀態每一年都在太快應該不好這個發生在停電問題會減少啊是我們給你的計畫是10年計畫強振電網跟配電的提升"},{"start":423.204,"end":423.505,"text":"報告委員數字上面齁"},{"start":445.885,"end":445.905,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":468.319,"end":488.691,"text":"桃園已經有5家在做SRF的這個發電現在又核准了這3家剛剛我們省次長也提到說在整個工業區的總量的環評的空屋的部分他是可以不用做環評但是你不要忘了空屋的問題"},{"start":490.682,"end":507.423,"text":"的問題是隨著風向一直在飄離開他的園區的所以你怎麼去測試那本席要告訴你就是桃園市政府已經撤銷了他們入園許可現在第二次撤銷我們也希望部長你把"},{"start":508.064,"end":531.363,"text":"民眾的聲音聽進去不要強行讓他們入園因為我們希望的話就是我們環境部跟我們經濟部一定要了解你們重演的條件跟規範目前來講的話這個SRF它的來源有製造廠跟空污規範的這個要做一個"},{"start":532.324,"end":561.36,"text":"通盤的整理的規劃裡面尤其是我們目前的鍋爐空污空氣污染的這個物的這個排放照目前來講有兩種就是粒狀的空污物歐盟的標準每立方公尺是10毫克環境部的話目前的標準每立方公尺是30毫克如果說是氮氧化物歐盟的標準是73 ppm環境部的標準是100 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有人代理阿 現在代理村的黑白的剪到這樣 一定要代法官?到我們的那個 司法院的規定是要在總統在大法官之內 你是有支持他們 你有支持到他們"},{"start":91.394,"end":117.587,"text":"沒有跟委員報告因為我們的調動都是都是符合法官自願的這是我們法律有保障的所以一定是有照各個法院才會從事我來這裡都要請你起來,大法官就不能來啊,我也沒辦法請你來啊所以有人要你問的時候我會疑心不忍啊我請教你因為我對大法官不一定就不是對他們的個人你想"},{"start":119.327,"end":140.784,"text":"憲法宣判後,這個會期後,後面其他的包括新的案,我不會因為對於那個案的判決我代表人民,我歡迎人民對於不好的聲音但是新的案件就新的,一個case,一個Case不一樣對不對,也不會因為個人"},{"start":142.674,"end":161.607,"text":"人人都有個人的,我們都存中意嘛。但是當你的法國違背到我代表的民意的時候,人民給我的壓力,叫我要來這裡對表達人民的聲音嘛。啊所以變成自己來對你表達,我不知道我聽回幾半這樣,跟你聲明之後,你剛好回去給人家轉達啦。"},{"start":167.123,"end":191.252,"text":"其實典屬案以來的憲法法庭是很獨立在運作我也不能 我也沒有資格 您的審訊我相信委員在立法院在催省那些事情其實沒有報告那個大概媒體館長都有啦我相信 館長有 他們不一定會看啊我沒辦法大家去 我也沒辦法大家去演清是說你有看過有看過 但是我相信"},{"start":194.253,"end":211.724,"text":"表示給我的支持者和人民回覆,因為我晚上在台北的時候我都會說台灣都沒有卡電話來,也沒有表示意見。我請教你,很重要的,因為這阿伯就牽涉到,他基因破解後,我們要怎麼做?這就很重要了。"},{"start":216.035,"end":227.317,"text":"我去之前每天有報到一個詐騙集團一個線索的車手的頭就對了結果有兩個車手被抓到這兩個車手抓到之後呢跟警察就對了跟這個線索的警察說都他叫我們去抓我們抓的錢都九二結果警察就一步後"},{"start":244.42,"end":248.744,"text":"他就要看那些非民進行的請穿好啊。請就穿好啊。不去就穿好誰啊。後來後呢,他是用什麼那些請觀煩人那種方式啊。到處去請。"},{"start":265.132,"end":273.758,"text":"先把這個憲法應該是選擇選擇單選擇選擇選擇這兩個車輛而已 名字的車輛而已 要把車輛訂出來 這樣讓我對這個太陽的 給開了 開了門 繞了這個選擇這個 一個給開了門 這樣讓我pass 這個報道你給我看"},{"start":295.333,"end":302.715,"text":"委員報告我一部份沒看到你知不知台海有什麼案件的規定?委員講得很詳細我大概會講在這個憲法113的憲法裏面被質疑是必須要以犯下最嚴重的犯罪才可以判死刑對不對?"},{"start":322.452,"end":330.916,"text":"啊像他這樣齁,事先就傳好就事先就要準備要給他們兩個死的,就事先把母親傳好死,然後再用這個手段把他打死,你看這個這樣有算最嚴重的犯行嗎?"},{"start":341.694,"end":363.785,"text":"委員報告因為因為我們受傷的過程比如說這案件又調查下去調查下去有一些我講的這個案件的過程嘛就是說這款的反應有算最嚴重的反應嗎?因為可能要看具體的事實啦因為你只要這樣的事實將來去調查之後又知道到底是什麼原因什麼背景再來就是說"},{"start":371.189,"end":382.434,"text":"一審啦齁 沒給他判死刑 一審給他判無期徒刑 無期徒刑的意思是怎樣 你說齁 啊他就欠家屬特性好戒啊 因為他有欠這死者的家屬好戒 所以餒 給他判無期徒刑 沒判死刑 然後齁"},{"start":398.541,"end":404.665,"text":"這比格還在上手啦 要再謹慶他的罪行啦 希望再謹判啦他想說他比較好啊 我請教你 像你過去的這個判官經驗啦 他比較好啊 但是沒有負責 這樣算有好改還是沒好改 我要賠你六百萬啊 但是我一次都沒給你 這樣算有好改還是沒好改"},{"start":427.2,"end":442.083,"text":"給委員報告齁 合格的時候你是說好的時候是合格 啊假設發生說你委員剛才說的說 啊事後並不如意 都不如意 當然 最少 按照最少去 譬如說 最少去國定法院 啊這一年可能 要判的時候 到要判過的時候 你也問一下 我覺得我們不能把被告 那個被害者問一下說 啊這天有沒有給你合格 錢有沒有給你"},{"start":455.182,"end":462.255,"text":"啊你現在從我這算盤 從我用說他事有何概所以我認為這 我看有這麼簡單的方法"},{"start":466.434,"end":480.722,"text":"案的審判我沒有參與我不知道但是正常律師啦例如說律師、代理人、被害者有跟檢察官說,如果在那裡控告他去封就是...我們現在...他台灣說的意思就是說他要沒差別啦,隨機殺人這個,還要做嚴重的反省才有可能判死刑嘛。啊如果他這個想要說,他這個不是隨機的,也不是沒差別的,就我準備要給你死的,這樣才不可以判死刑呢。"},{"start":497.113,"end":501.654,"text":"但是我解釋這樣嘛,所以我看大招這樣看嘛。但是說具體的情形,要看各種情況。現在舉這個例子,但是其他情形綜合起來沒有辦法講一定。我不是跟他舉這個例子,譬如我們台南,我們有兩個警察,給一個4人的兇犯。"},{"start":526.8,"end":528.641,"text":"這兩個警察要跟他出題﹖結果﹖他走到京阿島﹖一台17島﹖一台38島﹖你如果身為家屬就看到﹖你覺得看人家死得這麼淒慘﹖就對了﹖家屬的無奈﹖這種就算是犯下最嚴重的犯刑﹖是不是?"},{"start":554.807,"end":581.649,"text":"我們要看他個別情形,請問我可以講當然這是很嚴重的事他這個選擇不是故意的喔,你不是去意的喔,如果這樣才有大法官現在的解說,這個是不會判死刑的啦,覺得是這樣嗎?全部我剛才講那是舉例,大法官那例子是舉例,他實際上要看其他各種的這個當時發生的所有的經過因為大法官該"},{"start":583.22,"end":583.36,"text":"議員：謝龍介議員：謝龍介議員"},{"start":603.76,"end":616.632,"text":"這具體的情形,我向委員報告,剛才是一個例事,可能具體的情形,我要去講,你現在...如果這樣現狀是這37個時期的情況,你看到,已經台法官席如果再多月了嘛,一年再多月了,你們有去查看這裡的人,這37個冬季是都有一筆刮毛"},{"start":627.816,"end":633.306,"text":"我沒有看過他的會長上司在審查當中沒有啦,我說你們在法官解說後,他們有去看這37個動機時,審判有一定過嗎?"},{"start":639.636,"end":647.717,"text":"我最喜歡審查,因為有很多案件是很久的,很久的,很久的所以要調比較早的檔案,有的檔案已經有了,有很多有很多案件,因為那些案件已經超過保存期限,超過保存期限,所以要用另外方式去查,不是都...沒有啦,有查過的啦,沒有..."},{"start":666.901,"end":673.424,"text":"因為若一帝過來就不用再非常上手了嘛,是不是?若一帝過來就可以,我要問你的意思就是說若一帝過來,我們也牽涉到後面這37個法制61個啦,這61個有競爭比賽的、有辦會小的、有去到台的、有去唱歌的就對了"},{"start":695.683,"end":706.651,"text":"我告訴你這是很惡劣的啦所以現在我們回來好 台灣已經解說了 判決了這37日 我要問的就是若一帝國是不是 阿伯我們可以繼續下去嗎就是這個理由 一帝國的這個理由這關過嘛 其他的不可能用其他的理由當然其他的理由要經過 經過最高檢察署 檢察總統去做審核所以若一帝國的就是法務部現在可以"},{"start":723.243,"end":724.264,"text":"因為這發露一個"},{"start":752.725,"end":765.178,"text":"因為全民都在期待,你不能把這個做到要變成我們立法院在打,因為你如果說是我們就要求法務部要去執行"},{"start":772.711,"end":789.598,"text":"啊你現在你司法院你要有一個態度出來啊,所以我跟你說不要跟你為難,我每次跟你問你要不要拿回去給我看清楚啊,他意志什麼了啊,現在來,啊不好來,你說他如果沒有受訓練就到了這條刑事訴訟法,我一定要跟你問嘛,這是應該你拿出來嘛,你有要拿出來嗎?"},{"start":795.749,"end":797.893,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法院函請審查司法院函請審查"},{"start":806.619,"end":806.639,"text":"議員：謝龍介議員"},{"start":826.665,"end":843.353,"text":"當然 行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案是他們的案：謝龍介因為這個部份他們沒有提出來：謝龍介我們沒辦法去要求法務部處理：謝龍介但是我就請副秘書長：謝龍介就你所答應的部分：謝龍介來算明好不好：謝龍介你這條先提出來：謝龍介因為這條我告訴過你嘛："},{"start":853.373,"end":867.483,"text":"對嗎?你有印象嗎?我跟你問過,我剛才跟你問過,這個這款是不是在你手上嗎?你說是嘛。受刑能力的部分一定是,因為實際上執行是檢查那邊嘛。所以,我們這邊是配套的,我只要檢查看看,這條你現在沒有打開,現在沒有人跟他打手嘛。他是不是有受刑能力?他是不是7天、8天、15天關掉他神經效益啊?"},{"start":877.651,"end":878.452,"text":"現在沒辦法判斷19到20,發不報也沒辦法執行。"},{"start":885.546,"end":887.567,"text":"我這部分一定要一整個部分不可能隨便單獨去處理啦因為這部分是發布報告"},{"start":916.046,"end":918.468,"text":"提及三十七的施行案．逮捕．作動．毫無補免．他沒辦法去執行本．毫無補免．就理由牽連．司法院就阿沒收尾．說我沒辦法去執行啊。"},{"start":929.13,"end":934.638,"text":"主席問題在這裡嘛 我不是在說法律 了解了解 教育委員這樣好不好 因為這阿堪修法的問題齁 咱來就安排來這樣推什麼 這樣好不好 因為已經副秘書員有申請了 你也問得比較清楚 大家了解你的意思嗎 在這裡啦 了解得沒問題 咱來處理啦 謝謝 謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":746,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（11時52分）感謝主席。請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：副秘書長，辛苦了。對你很不好意思，沒辦法，因為你代理秘書長。我請問你，你什麼時候要去履新？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果說能夠順利產生我們新的長官，當然他就可以儘早去準備，現在不是我自己能夠決定的，但是已經通過了，因為現在……"],["謝委員龍介：如果新的院長沒有出來，就要把你吊到半空中嗎？可以這樣嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，如果沒有產生新的院長，也許會有代理的司法院長。"],["謝委員龍介：對，就有人代理了，對不對？現在剩下的那8個競爭很激烈，難道一定要大法官代理？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：依照我們的規定，是要總統在大法官之內去……"],["謝委員龍介：你是有得罪他們嗎？你有得罪到他們嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有。跟委員報告，因為我們的調動都是符合法官志願的，都是法律有保障的，所以一定是有照各個……"],["謝委員龍介：像我來這裡，都要請你來，大法官都不能來，我也沒辦法請你來啊，所以有人問你的時候，我會於心不忍。我請教你，因為我對大法官不予認同，不是對他們的個人，憲法宣判廢死之後，後面其他的案，包括新的案，我不會只對那個案的判決表達意見，我代表人民，我反映人民不服的聲音，但是新的案件就是新的，一個case一個case不一樣，對不對？我也不會因為他個人而表達意見，人都有個人的意志，我們都尊重，但是當你的判決違背了我代表的民意的時候，人民給我的壓力，要我來這裡表達人民的聲音，所以變成只能對你表達，我不知道我前幾次那樣請問你之後，你有回去轉達他們嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，其實憲法法庭是很獨立在運作，我也沒有資格列席憲法法庭。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，你轉達我的意思，轉達百姓的心聲啊。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員在立法院垂詢的事情，其實不用我報告，媒體上面都有。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，即使上面有，他們也不一定會看啊。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我沒有辦法，也沒有資格去請示，問他們有沒有看這個看那個。"],["謝委員龍介：不然也寫一封信給我，表示一下，讓我向我的支持者、人民答覆，因為我晚上在直播時都會說大法官都沒有打電話來，也沒有表示意見。","我請教你，很重要的就是，因為這個後面就牽涉到指引判決之後，我們要怎麼做，這個就很重要了，我還記得之前媒體有報導一個詐騙集團有一個姓蘇的車手頭子，有兩個車手被抓到，這兩個車手被抓到之後，把他供出來，就把這個姓蘇的供出來，說都是他叫他們去領錢的，他們領了錢都交給他了，結果他們供出來之後他不服，要跟他們見面之前就把槍準備好了，槍就準備好了，武器都準備好了，後來他們來了之後，他是用槍決犯人的那種方式，左手拿槍，應該是陳姓和楊姓這兩個領錢的車手，他們只是領錢的車手而已，因為他們把上游供出來，就被他先對其中一個對準太陽穴開兩槍，接著再對這個姓楊的開兩槍，就這樣把他們打死，這則報導你有沒有看到？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我這部分沒看到。"],["謝委員龍介：你知不知道我說的這個案情大概的過程？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員說得很詳細，我大概……"],["謝委員龍介：在這次113年憲判第8號的旨意就是，必須要犯下最嚴重的犯罪才能判死刑，對不對？像他這樣，事先就準備好要讓他們兩個死，又事先把武器準備好，然後用這種手段打死他們，你看這樣有算是最嚴重的犯行嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，在訴訟的過程，比如這個案件再調查下去有一些……"],["謝委員龍介：我在說的是這個案件的過程，就是這樣的犯行有算最嚴重的犯行嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可能要看具體的事實，因為以審判過程，如果只有這樣的事實，將來去調查之後，還要知道到底是什麼原因、什麼背景……"],["謝委員龍介：再來就是說，一審沒有判死刑，一審判無期徒刑，判無期徒刑的意思是什麼？說他跟家屬達成和解了，因為他有跟死者的家屬和解，所以判無期徒刑，沒有判死刑。然後這個被告再上訴，要再減輕他的罪刑，希望再輕判。一審說他和家屬和解了。我請教你，你們過去的判決經驗，有跟家屬和解但是沒有付錢，這樣算有和解還是沒和解？我要賠你600萬，但是我一毛錢都沒有給你，這樣算有和解還是沒和解？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，和解是說好有和解，假設發生像委員你剛才說的，事後並沒有履行……"],["謝委員龍介：都沒有履行。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：有履行，比如案件上訴到高等法院，這種情形可能……"],["謝委員龍介：判決的時候要問一下，法官難道不可以問一下被害者有沒有和解？錢有沒有給？現在在宣判的時候常常用有和解來減刑，所以我認為這個法官真有這麼簡單就被騙嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：個案的審判我沒有參與，我不知道，但是正常律師，比如告訴代理人、被害者有跟檢察官說，如果在……"],["謝委員龍介：現在大法官的意思就是，要是無差別、隨機殺人這種，還有很嚴重的犯行，才有可能判死刑，這個案子犯案者不是隨機的，也不是無差別的，而是準備要讓對方死的，這樣卻不能判死刑，是不是這樣？大法官解釋是這樣，所以法官都要照這樣判嘛。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：只是一個舉例啦。"],["謝委員龍介：什麼舉例，這是實例。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，我知道，但是具體的情形要看各種情況，現在舉這個例子，但是其他的情形綜合起來，沒有辦法講一定啦。"],["謝委員龍介：我不是只有舉這個例，比如臺南有兩個警察，被一個姓林的兇犯殺死，這兩個警察要對他取締，結果他拿彈簧刀殺他們，一個殺17刀、一個殺38刀，你如果身為家屬去到現場，就會覺得從沒看過人死得這麼悽慘，家屬的無奈，這種算不算犯下最嚴重的犯行？是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：要看個別情形，當然這是很嚴重的犯罪。"],["謝委員龍介：這算不是故意的，是臨時起意的，如果是這樣，照大法官現在的解釋，這個是不會判死刑的，是這樣嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我剛才說的大法官的理由是舉例，實際上要看其他各種當時發生的所有經過……"],["謝委員龍介：因為大法官把判例都解釋了，那麼以下三審的法官要怎麼樣才能超越大法官的意志，就判死刑？顯然這個就不可能判死刑了。主席，稍坐一下，讓我說完，這很重要，因為這37個死刑犯後面要怎麼處理……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我剛才跟委員報告，大法官是一個例釋，可能具體的情形還要去討論，而且……"],["謝委員龍介：如果是這樣，現在這37個死刑犯，大法官釋憲至今已經一、兩個月了，你們有去查這些人，這37個當時都有一致決嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：現在法務部的非常上訴正在審查當中。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！我是說大法官解釋了以後，他們有去看這37個死刑犯當時審判有沒有一致決。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：現在最高法院在查……"],["謝委員龍介：查完了沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為有好幾件案件是很久的案子，要調較早的檔案，有的檔案已經不見了。"],["謝委員龍介：拜託！你是內行人，評議簿查一查就知道。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為有好幾件的簿子已經超過保存期限，超過保存期限，所以要用另外的方式去查，不是都有……"],["謝委員龍介：查幾個了？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們一直跟最高法院說，請他們……"],["謝委員龍介：因為如果有一致決的，就不用再非常上訴了，不是嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：其他的情形……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，即使是其他的情形，有一致決的就不用，我要問你的意思是，如果有一致決的，如果沒有牽涉到後面，這37個人打死61個人，這61個人有被姦殺的，有被放火燒死的，也有被拿刀殺死的，也有被拿槍打死的，我告訴你，這是很惡劣的，所以現在大法官已經解釋、判決了，我要問的就是，這37個死刑犯如果是一致決的，是不是後面可以繼續下去？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：就是一致決這個理由這關通過，他們不可能再用其他的理由，用其他的理由要經過最高檢察署檢察總長去審核。"],["謝委員龍介：如果有一致決的，就是法務部可以處決就對了！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：看有沒有其他理由，就是這一點要求過了……"],["謝委員龍介：所謂其他理由，就是他們有沒有受刑能力。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：受刑能力是說精神鑑定……"],["謝委員龍介：如果他們在收容的過程中，在監獄裡都沒有去精神病院看病，也沒有看精神科，就表示這些人有受刑能力，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，具體個案的審酌，我沒辦法在這裡說他是不是一定有受刑能力。"],["謝委員龍介：因為這個法律有一個標準，有一個門檻在那邊，過了以後就是決定會和不會，這很重要，因為全民都在期待，你不能讓這個罪到最後變成是立法院在扛，因為你如果讓我們來核實，我們就會要求法務部要去執行，你司法院要有一個態度出來啊！所以我跟你說我不要為難你，我每次問你的，你要拿回去向大法官請教啊！他意旨寫完了，好，現在我們來講，你說他如果沒有受刑能力就對了，這是有關於刑事訴訟法，我上次問你們，這條應該是你們要提出的，你有要提出嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：刑事訴訟法相關的部分，我們正在研議當中，但是……"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你講，這條在109年那時就有了，109年就有這條了，刑事訴訟法第四百六十五條中的受刑能力，連草案也都有了，我問你是不是半年內可以送出來，主席，那時也是你主持的。"],["主席：謝委員，上次法務部長來備詢的時候，他有問過相關的問題，因為這和司法院……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，這是他們的職權啊。"],["主席：當然刑事訴訟法是他們在管……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：還有監獄行刑法，監獄行刑法是……"],["主席：你在講的還有法務部要執行的部分。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，因為這個部分，他們如果沒有拿出來，我們沒辦法去要求法務部處理啊。"],["主席：那我就請副秘書長就你所詢問的部分來說明，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：還有監獄行刑法，不是只有刑訴法，刑訴法之外，還有監獄行刑法要有更具體的規劃。"],["謝委員龍介：你這條先拿出來，因為這條我跟你說過了，對不對？你有印象嗎？我問過你，我上次問你，這個職權是不是在你們司法院，你說是。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：受刑能力的部分一定是，因為實際上執行是檢察官那邊，所以我們這邊是配套……"],["謝委員龍介：但是這一條你現在沒有處理，就沒有人敢動手。他是不是有受刑能力？他是不是關7年、8年、15年以後，他得了精神病、瘋了，現在沒辦法判斷，屆時到最後法務部也無法執行，這樣你聽懂了嗎？"],["主席：關於這部分，謝委員，我們共同來推動，好不好？"],["謝委員龍介：不然你看多久可以送過來。"],["主席：你說一句話，做個說明，把這個質詢……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為執行的部分不可能司法院單獨去處理，這個部分是法務部在執行的。"],["謝委員龍介：我知道，我說你給一個時間，因為109年都已經有草案，也有研議過，你們一直不要送出來，不要送出來，就是兩個態度，第一個就是法不完備，你們還在研議，第二個就是刻意要替這37個死刑犯解套、阻擋，法務部變成沒辦法執行，法務部就有理由站在你們那邊，說司法院都還沒修，所以沒辦法執行，主席，問題在這裡。我不是有說……"],["主席：了解，謝委員，這樣好不好？因為這個牽涉到修法的問題，我們再安排來推動，這樣好不好？因為副秘書長已經有說明了，你也問得很清楚，大家了解你的意思了，謝謝。"],["謝委員龍介：有了解，就沒有面對。"],["主席：我們來處理。謝謝，謝謝，謝謝謝委員，謝謝黃副秘書長。","接下來有請洪委員孟楷發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲",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防治的設備且代澳新的標準要比照焚化爐以真正達成把廢轉能這樣的部分"},{"start":261.643,"end":282.852,"text":"這是我剛剛說的第一個法規制定以及要落實法規的部分不曉得今天是部長在這裡後面環境部次長也在這裡嘛那你對於這我提出的三個建議不曉得您認為態度如何跟委員報告我的態度就是把委員所指教的這部分帶回去趕快研究"},{"start":283.592,"end":284.173,"text":"我們在今年6月到9月已經完成了全面的體檢"},{"start":301.956,"end":322.271,"text":"所以會有一部新的法規來把這三項全部都納入嗎?年底會有管理辦法,正適用辦法,是,已經在公告預告當中了,那我們的那個排放標準也加嚴,檢測頻率也提升。所以SRF的管理方式要加嚴嗎?這才是第一層次的規範嗎?那是對於運作中的所有SRF廠。"},{"start":323.812,"end":345.302,"text":"委員您剛提到桃園那三家是未來要興建的那當然也要符合我們現在所有的標準那當然啊因為它還沒有設置起來嘛所以當然我們的法規如果跑快一點它當然要依照新法規嘛所以這是我認為第一個環境部標準應該要設立的部分但是第二個那個郭部長我還是在跟您您剛剛提到了我想藉著時間齁還是請您把剛剛這個說清楚我認為"},{"start":348.644,"end":367.157,"text":"即便你要把他從SRF從再生能源發展條例的獎勵辦法中拿走可是這是一個好的做法我們還是要鼓勵這個新技術來所以部長其他的獎勵辦法是什麼請您說明拿掉的部分是非綠的部分就是我們讓他走這個七天共生的獎勵"},{"start":368.274,"end":383.773,"text":"走氣電共生的部分所以還是有相關的鼓勵這個轉廢為能的這個部分嘛對不對是的好那最後我也是提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下您的這個預告版本裡面第一條其實你在定義什麼是再生能源的時候"},{"start":384.874,"end":402.731,"text":"還是有把燃燒廢棄物的部分是放在定義裡面但是又增加了第11項這個燃燒這個SRF的這個器具又不算是電氣發展設備這兩個部分似乎看起來是有矛盾的部分啦也請那個能源局這邊可以再看一下是是謝謝委員指教好謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":972,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（12時）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長，我想您看到我的投影片標題了，「轉廢為能步步前進　SRF不該被汙名化」，我今天就用短短的幾分鐘跟您討論SRF這個部分。我想請您在備詢臺上再次說明經濟部對SRF的態度到底是什麼，是肯定還是否定？它的定位是什麼？可不可以簡答？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是肯定還是否定？"],["郭部長智輝：它是趨勢啦！所以我們對SRF的態度是這樣，它只要符合環境部的需求、環境部的檢驗、通過了，我們當然是肯定的，主要因為它是減碳的一部分。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！所以其實這就是一個新的技術，這個新技術可以達到的是產生的能源為減碳的能源、是一個多元創造能源的方式，同時還可以去化廢棄物，所以理論上這個新技術當然是好的啊！但是，這個新技術當然也有它的過程，過程當中如果產生問題，我們就應該加強管理嘛！這是兩個層次的問題，很清楚。本席討論SRF，是因為上一屆我就在衛環委員會，我因為新北的廢棄物問題非常、非常地嚴重，所以有幸在衛環委員會看到環境部能夠根據國際潮流，讓臺灣開始引進這樣的新技術。","可是，我們很遺憾地看到，這段時間以來地方政府對SRF電廠不但沒有協助，甚至直接跳到撤銷執照，完全不討論中間的癥結問題，部長，甚至您剛剛說肯定，可是我看到經濟部在上一周正式預告的再生能源發展條例部分條文修正草案，其實也把SRF納入獎勵範圍這部分給拿掉了。兩件事情加在一起，你剛剛說的肯定是怎麼樣肯定？事實上，你態度肯定，但實際作為上既沒有協助，又把草案的獎勵部分拿掉，難道你實際作為其實是否定嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：它是轉換到另一個獎勵條例去了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：轉換？有轉換嗎？有同時轉換到嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是跟……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這就是我今天要跟您討論的部分。部長，因為我時間有限，所以我想在這裡跟您確認一下，國內SRF仍有爭議的最大原因其實就是這兩個嘛！一個是法規未完備，另外一個是規範未落實，這是兩個層次，對不對？在法規部分，我相信環境部已經開始討論了，那我們來看一下現在的狀況。第一，現在的狀況是書面審查，沒有實地會勘，所以不肖業者很多啊！再來是第二個，現有業者的技術、設備不足，所以垃圾沒有經過合格的分選，問題是在這裡啊！不是SRF的技術不好，而是這個技術燃燒的東西沒有經過合格的分選嘛！第三，鍋爐也沒有嚴格控管戴奧辛跟監控氯啊！所以才會有空氣污染。這些都是管理問題，但怎麼可以放任這樣的問題把整套世界認可的新技術變成「這個東西不好」？這樣不對嘛！","所以本席具體建議，第一，加入實地勘查的機制及罰則；第二，要設立第三方單位負責SRF的品質控管及認證工作；第三，規範SRF的業者應該具備空氣汙染防制設備，且戴奧辛的標準要比照焚化爐，以真正達成把廢轉能這樣的目標。這是我剛剛說的第一個法規制定以及要落實法規的部分。今天部長在這裡，環境部次長也在這裡，對於我提出的三個建議，不曉得您認為如何、態度如何？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我的態度就是把委員所指教的這部分帶回去……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這三個都應該列入！"],["郭部長智輝：趕快研究……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：然後跟環境部充分地討論，朝這個方向努力。"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實這個部分應該找環境部啦！次長，我覺得這三項是非常實際的，應該直接成為法規，其實就解套了一大半啊！"],["沈次長志修：是，我們在今年6月到9月已經完成了全面體檢，剛剛委員所講的這些問題都是我們在體檢範圍……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以會有一部新的法規把這三項全部都納進去嗎？"],["沈次長志修：年底會有管理辦法，正式適用辦法。"],["蘇委員巧慧：年底？現在已經10月30日囉！"],["沈次長志修：是，已經在公告預告當中了，排放標準加嚴，檢測頻率也提升。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以SRF的管理方式要加嚴，這才是第一層次的部分嘛！"],["沈次長志修：是，跟委員報告，那是對於所有運作中的SRF廠，而委員剛剛提到桃園那三家是未來要興建的，當然也要符合現在所有的標準。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那當然啊！因為它還沒有設置起來，法規如果跑快一點，它當然要依照新法規嘛！這是第一個部分，我認為環境部應該設立標準。","第二個，郭部長，我還是要再跟您討論，您剛剛提到了，我想藉這個時間還是請您把剛剛的話說清楚，我認為即便你要把SRF從再生能源發展條例的獎勵辦法中拿走，但這是一個好的做法，我們還是要鼓勵這個新技術，部長，所以其他獎勵辦法是什麼？請您說明。"],["郭部長智輝：拿掉的是非氯的部分，也就是走汽電共生的獎勵。"],["蘇委員巧慧：走汽電共生，所以還是有鼓勵轉廢為能的相關部分，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好。","最後，我也藉這個機會提醒一下，在您的預告版本裡面，其實第一條在定義什麼是再生能源的時候還是把燃燒廢棄物的部分放在定義裡面，但是又增加了第十一項燃燒SRF的器具又不算是電氣發展設備，這兩部分看起來似乎有矛盾啦！也請能源局這邊再看一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席（鄭委員天財代）：接下來請鍾佳濱委員。鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在場。","接下來請呂玉玲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":994,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時54分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。今天早上我看到工商時報有一則新聞標題，就是為了今天勞動部的業報，我們的缺工專報，您提到說解決缺工要對症下藥，不能只靠開放移工、壓抑勞動條件等等，我覺得您講得很有道理，因為跟我心裡想的一樣。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我這樣說？我們來看一下主計總處112年的人力資源調查，我們可以看到原住民族的勞動力參與率跟全體國人的平均是64.1%對59.2%，我可以說，2.5%的原住民族人對於我國的勞動其實是很有貢獻的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們進一步來看，原住民從事的前五大行業：營建、製造、餐飲住宿、批發零售、醫療保健及社工服務，尤其是營建工程，原住民的參與率是18.01%，高於全體國人的7.99%。","相對的我們也來看一下，在勞動部提出的專報裡面，它說產業缺工的概況，包括製造業、批發零售、營建工程、住宿餐飲、醫療保健及社會工作服務業，部長，你看到這邊，會不會覺得原住民從事的前五大行業怎麼恰恰與勞動部說的缺工五大一模一樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以在這個當中，我今天想要請教一下部長，是不是應該針對促進原住民就業來去做一個專案？為什麼我這樣問？因為勞發署它有一個缺工就業獎勵，你看一下申領資格第一項，它說受僱於同一3K產業雇主連續達30天以上，我想要跟部長說，其實我們的族人看得到吃不到，因為它不利於營造業。其實我們都很清楚，這一些族人、營造業的工人，他不是跟著雇主走，他是跟著工頭走。"],["何部長佩珊：工頭，工班。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以他沒有辦法連續達30日以上。第二個，它提到每週工時達35小時以上，一樣的概念，他不是不想做工啊！是因為沒有工可以給他做，所以第一點跟第二點它比較類似坐在辦公室的那一種工作，其實是不利於原住民投入的五大行業，所以我為什麼要特別講？就是因為原住民很願意工作，對國家也很有貢獻，可是我們會發現針對他的獎勵好像沒有給他。","我們再看一下這個部分，雖然我們的勞動參與率、就業率都比一般高了，可是薪資的差距卻高達將近1萬塊錢，所以我在這裡，可能部長你已經清楚我想要講什麼，就是針對工作時數未滿35小時的原住民就業者，其實有將近一半的人都說我有意願增加工時啊！但是我們做這種工，不見得天天都有工。第二個，這些人又高達93%，他說原因是什麼？當然是為了增加收入啊！所以原住民其實是很願意工作，很願意投入勞動力，但是他們也很希望收入可以增加，所以我才會在這個地方就這個問題來請部長可不可以幫個忙，對於原住民這種工時不足的非典型勞動型態，要怎麼樣透過這種缺工獎勵，讓我們的原住民族人願意投入更多的勞力？"],["何部長佩珊：可以，非常好，謝謝委員的提醒，很好，您看到的那個缺工獎勵是針對製造業。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["何部長佩珊：當然我們原住民的朋友在投入營造業方面，他是比較機動的、彈性的，這個我們來檢討調整。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，太好了。"],["何部長佩珊：看能不能也針對……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，給他們誘因，讓我們更願意來投入，也能增加我們的薪水。"],["何部長佩珊：是，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：最後還是要謝謝勞動部，因為我們看到112年原住民的失業率已經跟全體國人一致了，逐年趨緩，然後現在趨於一致，也特別謝謝勞動部願意來催生公立的原住民族就業服務中心，目前已經有6個縣市參與。","過去因為沒有公立的原住民就服中心，所以原民會有用就業代金轉過來的就業基金，他們有去辦一個所謂就服員的服務人員，目前有75名，他們說現在是遇缺不補，因為他們希望未來能夠把這兩股人力整併，有更好的一個就業體制，那我也一直關心這個部分，所以我只是讓部長知道，一、表達感謝；二、我們希望讓整個就服的輔導人力工作，未來能夠跟原民會趨於穩定，讓它走向制度化……"],["何部長佩珊：好，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有一個就業保障，也能夠確實地針原住民去做就業服務的工作媒合。","最後就是我剛才提的，部長也已經回答，是不是1個月內可以針對工時不足非典型勞動的這種原住民勞工，能夠去修正缺工獎勵的標準？也希望未來服務的人力，就業服務員整合的部分，也能夠提出一個未來的規劃方向，讓我們越做越好。"],["何部長佩珊：好，我再給委員好嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156314","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156314","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adebea5c5743f72d4c8325639a1896b059df293381db574b3e91c9e0eb0984d72d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:57:00 - 12:02:12","影片長度":"00:05:12","會議時間":"2024-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、\t審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n二、\t審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n三、\t審查委員鄭天財Sra 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喔喔你都偶遇到這樣喔SRF多少賺多少賺看其他國家其他國家你要燒木材你這個燒有會產生有耐耗性的這個塑膠什麼對環保產生很大的影響就這個情況結果我們再看一下"},{"start":438.776,"end":459.144,"text":"結果,原來你都說不准,政府參議員說不准,後來呢,美國介入了,你們就推薦了。好了,我的重點在這裡,彰化縣,仰寶石業後製桃園的牧師,也做SRF,也不經過環評。所以我就是問你一件事情,特別是環境部的掌櫃在這裡。"},{"start":460.824,"end":488.116,"text":"這些廠不管做什麼的SRF要不要做環評?要不要?跟委員報告桃園那三家廠是在桃科工裡面他本身有個總量環評是要符合進廠的標準沒有沒有他沒有進環保園區進環保園區才不需要做環評桃科工本身是有環評跟委員報告桃科工本身有一個總的環評所以只要進這個廠符合入園的標準長襪為什麼可以不做環評就要不要做環評?"},{"start":489.136,"end":507.955,"text":"我跟委員報告,SRF廠要不要做環評,要依照它的區位規模來判定,都要符合。那需要環評的就一定要環評,免環評就不用環評,但是環保相關法規都必須要遵守。那郭副長,我就是再問你一次,有關於SRF這個的一個申請,你現在變成是鼓勵喔?"},{"start":514.656,"end":542.75,"text":"我們這個SRF是這個國際的一個趨勢我們沒有什麼鼓勵國際趨勢人家燒木材我們燒塑膠所以一定要通過這個環境部的這個要求我們根據這個法令的這個規範來進行我就是跟你強調他們要做這些東西對環境可能產生很大影響的SRF要做環評OK就這個我的要求"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":902,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時50分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你好。昨天在我們院會張委員的詢答中詢問NVIDIA如果跟你要100億度電的事，你很快（沒有花到1秒鐘）、反應非常快說沒有問題。請問你那時候憑什麼講這個？你到底心裡怎麼想？你有準備嗎？你知道情況怎麼樣嗎？你要不要講一下那時候的反應為什麼這麼快？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我會很快地回答，第一是因為我非常清楚這件事情如果是真的，它要進來、真的會用這麼多綠電，光是要成立這樣的機構，相信一定要兩年以上，這是第一個假設。第二，根據目前綠電在進行的這些創電案，我們非常清楚到2026年會有550億度綠電。根據這兩個基本的狀況，我很快地就可以回應他沒有問題。"],["賴委員士葆：外界的感覺是你以企業老闆的心態表達，你要什麼？沒問題，你來就好。感覺是這個樣子，就是怎麼會這麼快、馬上說沒有問題？好吧！你既然說了……"],["郭部長智輝：難道委員認為這個會有問題嗎？我這樣的假設會有問題嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你要知道，那其他廠商怎麼辦呢？你只有給他，台積電也要；其他廠商也要，還有其他廠商啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對於台積電要用多少電、所有要用綠電的廠商，我們都非常地清楚，也都有聯絡……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，台積電要多少綠電？"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：台積電要多少綠電？"],["郭部長智輝：台積電要用多少綠電？"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["郭部長智輝：台積電所用的電都要綠電。"],["賴委員士葆：現在多少？"],["郭部長智輝：現在大概占我們的……"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，目前它是逐步在買綠電啦！至於……"],["賴委員士葆：現在綠電幾乎全部給台積電了，不是嗎？台積電是最大客戶，不是嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：大概七成。"],["賴委員士葆：難道不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在就如委員所指教的，沒有錯，大部分都是它。"],["賴委員士葆：它是大客戶，對不對？占幾個百分點？占綠電幾個百分點？"],["郭部長智輝：它現在用我們的綠電大概七成以上。"],["賴委員士葆：七成以上？有人講到九成耶！"],["王總經理耀庭：七成是指從民間電廠出去的部分，其實台電手上還有一些綠電，那個部分都還沒有出去啦！那個量還有……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你昨天在這裡提到一個數字，令我嚇一跳！你說現在再生能源占了16%，這個數字對不對啊？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道……"],["賴委員士葆：我們怎麼看都是11%、12%，怎麼會有16%？怎麼跑來16%？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，16%是要再講哪一天或哪一段，不能講16%是什麼……"],["賴委員士葆：你講現在啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們那天在講的……"],["賴委員士葆：昨天講現在。"],["郭部長智輝：是10月22日，分母跟分子是不一樣的，10月22日當天的分母是台電系統的供應量，根據這個，再生能源的占比是16%，如果是大家在討論的9.5%，那麼它的分母是全國供應量……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！都不到10%，是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：這是分母跟分子之間的關係，也就是時間……"],["賴委員士葆：大家下標都是你說現在再生能源占16%，所以我覺得奇怪，我從來沒有看過這個數字，怎麼會變成16%呢？你也不澄清一下。把它講清楚。部長，請教……"],["郭部長智輝：因為命題不一樣，我是不是請能源署跟您報告一下？"],["賴委員士葆：不要、不要，我時間有限。","部長，針對川普，他現在民調節節上升，他講了一句話，說臺灣偷了他們的晶片產業。你昨天回答得很好，你講什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，美國現在還在選舉，在選舉過程裡面，我們不會評論這樣的……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有評論？你昨天在這裡已經講啦！你說不接受、不同意啊！你不是這樣講嗎？你當然要表態啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你是說他說我們偷了……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！說我們偷了他們……"],["郭部長智輝：對，我昨天講，我們當然不同意啊！"],["賴委員士葆：好，那我就告訴你，川普在美國講的時候，全美國有上億人口都在看他這個數字；但你講的、也包括卓榮泰院長講的，美國人不知道啊！美國人都接受那個概念，說我們偷了他們的晶片產業。請問，你有沒有想過透過外交的力量？或者應該去美國打廣告，把這件事跟美國人講清楚，美國是我們這麼重要的政經夥伴。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們跟美國之間的關係非常好，我想這點你也非常清楚。在選舉的時候，對於選舉的人所講的話，在這個時候、選舉還沒有結束之前，我們不應該針對這個問題下定論啦！這是我們的看法，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：不過你們在這裡講的對啊！你應該向美國人強調「我們沒有偷你們的啊！怎麼會偷你們的？要大聲講啊！"],["郭部長智輝：未來如果有人再講，我們要看影響是什麼……"],["賴委員士葆：影響？對科技界的影響？"],["郭部長智輝：如果影響到我們的市場運作，那我們當然會出來努力啦！但是如果只是說笑，我們也沒必要為了一個笑話……"],["賴委員士葆：你認為他是說笑？他會變成政策，他如果當選，會變成政策喔！比如說對臺灣的晶片課稅。"],["郭部長智輝：我想，你也非常清楚啦！要形成一個政策，中間要經過非常多討論，大家要做非常多的彼此了解。"],["賴委員士葆：好。再給我一點點時間，我馬上講完。","我們看今天的另一個題目SRF。關於SRF，我們很清楚地看得到立方、可寧衛、立疆這三家公司用發電廠的名義申請，他們沒有進到環保園區，進環保園區可以不做環評，這三家公司要做環評，卻沒有做環評，結果我看了整個報告，你們對SRF讚不絕口，還看其他國家，但其他國家是燒木材，這幾家是燒會產生戴奧辛的塑膠，對環保產生很大的影響。基於這個情況，原本你們都不准，鄭文燦原來說不准，後來美國介入，你們就推薦了！我的重點在這裡，彰化縣揚堡實業複製桃園的模式，也做SRF，也不經過環評，所以我就問你一件事情，特別是環境部的長官也在這裡，這些廠不管是做什麼的SRF，要不要作環評？要不要？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，桃園那三家廠是在桃科工裡面，該區本身有總量環評，只要符合進場標準，就可以……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，他們沒有進環保園區，進環保園區才不須要做環評，在科技園區都要。"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，桃科工本身有總的環評，所以只要進駐廠商符合入園標準……"],["賴委員士葆：那彰化呢？彰化呢？彰化呢？彰化為什麼可以不做環評就……"],["沈次長志修：要不要做環評……"],["賴委員士葆：它不用做啊！"],["沈次長志修：我跟委員報告，SRF廠要不要做環評要依照區位、規模判定，都要符合，須要環評的就一定要環評，免環評的就不用環評，但環保相關法規都必須遵守。"],["賴委員士葆：郭部長，我再問你一次，關於SRF的申請，你們現在變成鼓勵喔？"],["郭部長智輝：SRF是國際趨勢，我們沒有什麼鼓勵……"],["賴委員士葆：國際趨勢？人家燒木材，我們燒塑膠，你還這樣講！"],["郭部長智輝：所以一定要通過……"],["賴委員士葆：環評啊！"],["郭部長智輝：環境部的要求嘛！我們是根據法令規範進行。"],["賴委員士葆：我就是在跟你強調，他們要做這些東西，對環境可能產生很大影響的SRF，要做環評！OK，要這樣要求。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["主席：我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。","請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":100.903,"end":101.283,"text":" ﹝大法官﹞"},{"start":125.151,"end":129.295,"text":"那麼他在這次的現判之九號判決裡面也是引起這個社會覺得最訝異的然後最不可思議的一段解釋那麼"},{"start":140.465,"end":167.735,"text":"大法官認為說行政首長或政府人員在立法院委員會調查程序所做的陳述他就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任無涉法律責任所以如果行政首長政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話乃是屬於政治性的爭議本人要受到民主問責"},{"start":168.955,"end":187.689,"text":"的這個機制的這個就是他自己負擔自負民主問責最嚴重的話他就自行請辭他的意思是這樣所以呢也就是說這政府機關人員的在立院面前在立法委員面前他是可以不用說實話的他不負誠實的責任您同意嗎"},{"start":194.98,"end":202.141,"text":"那大法官的判決我好像沒有這樣子寫所以他說不負法律責任嗎?他還是要負政治責任啊那所以呢我現在就是從大法官這個判決裡面我們來延伸幾個問題如果說今天有人名他主張你們現在刑法裡面所處罰的虛偽陳述罪是違憲的他可以怎麼寫?簽驗"},{"start":226.084,"end":252.874,"text":"他可以說人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任無涉法律責任人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容若有涉及到虛偽陳述引發爭議的話是屬於道德爭議本人受到社會譴責而道德問題呢這是屬於社會關係中去解決不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入"},{"start":256.207,"end":269.338,"text":"這段話您同意嗎?若有人提出這樣子的申請事件認為我們的新法上面現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的您認為大法官會怎麼判?目前大法官並沒有說這個在訴訟過程中的違憲罪是違憲的同樣的邏輯啊對啊那請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任?"},{"start":283.8,"end":297.136,"text":"跟委員報告那大法官已經做出（所以您是完全認同大法官的這個見解的跟委員報告我們是司法行政單位我們沒有那個資格跟立場去去"},{"start":298.867,"end":321.875,"text":"但是你們有提案修法的責任,對不對?你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意思去提案修法咧?大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任啊。那同樣的道理啊,那麼人民也可以主張我今天就我所陳述的內容自行負責,這是屬於我道德責任,我說謊是受到社會各界的評價。你們憑什麼要來處罰我?"},{"start":324.605,"end":345.591,"text":"我們看一下現在刑法的第168條跟刑法的第111條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的這個條文我們比較看看它的構成要件到底有什麼不同除了少了一個拒絕之外都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責"},{"start":349.873,"end":357.475,"text":"當然就像剛剛秘書長講的唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊但是在立法委員面前可以說謊我知道其實秘書長您今天很為難啦看到大法官這樣的憲法判決然後再加上我們現在其實不管在行政法規訴訟法規裡面其實都有很多跟我們這次立法院職權刑事法修的條文是大同小異的"},{"start":379.042,"end":406.46,"text":"如果說大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後一般老百姓也可以主張啊我同樣都是說謊或是我同樣我沒有說誠實而沒有說實話的義務但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面的這個敘述這些顯然不太能夠用到法院的稱呼"},{"start":408.536,"end":437.177,"text":"所以還是就是大法官司法院最大嘛對不對大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭裡面一份的所以呢無論如何就是司法院最大在司法院面前不可以說謊然後在其他的這個機關面前在立法院面前就可以說謊我只是感到很遺憾像這樣子的大法官憲法裁判的理由裡面他把很多的道理把它混為一談"},{"start":439.336,"end":456.106,"text":"我們過去講的政治責任難道不是政治道德嗎?我們講一般的個人的人品道德你都可以轉換成為法律責任法律義務為什麼政治道德政治責任不能夠轉換法律義務只是因為他沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎?我們憲法裡面有說不可以處罰我們憲法裡面也沒有講說有授權這個法院可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人啊"},{"start":471.175,"end":493.459,"text":"為什麼我們現在可以處罰?請問秘書長為什麼現在可以處罰?目前因為法院這個在拒絕要為誠實陳述這個的處罰我想大概不只是台灣秘書長前面來說是因為法律保留嘛因為我們法律已經有規定了嘛對不對我們憲法裡面沒有規定的這麼具體名義嘛就授權立法者可以去制定嘛"},{"start":495.322,"end":523.866,"text":"那同樣的道理在我們立法院職權刑事法也是一樣我們是進行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律同樣的也是把一些政治的這個道德政治責任轉換成為法律義務其實這邏輯是一樣的當然不僅是有關於這個虛偽陳述的問題然後接下來好這個好再接下來下一頁對於不提供資料也是一樣的"},{"start":526.878,"end":529.819,"text":"我想請這個陳怡廳長陳廳長在我們行政訴訟法169條裡面的規定有說第三人無正當理由不提出文書致命者的話行政法院是可以處罰新台幣3萬元以下的罰款您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要"},{"start":551.967,"end":577.564,"text":"我想訴訟法這就是明文應該是有必要才會在法律上做這樣一個規範是,如果說我們今天依據大法官的憲法的理由我們把這條廢了呢?把這條刪除會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎?因為大法官認為其實人民是沒有出席的義務欸也沒有提供資料的義務欸"},{"start":582.55,"end":609.42,"text":"因為大法官並沒有說這個行政訴訟法這個人民的人民在法院的程序裡面必須...大法官沒有說但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚啊我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨對不對所以呢今天立法委員或是你們應該要主動的要提出修法啊依照大法官憲法的判決的意旨要保障人民的自由保障他們有言論不言論的自由保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由"},{"start":612.461,"end":632.199,"text":"所以是不是應該要提出修法?是這樣嗎?所以呢對於這個我們之前講的實質廢死的案的那個大法官宣告那四條說只有那四條死刑才要一致決其他的都可以不用一致決是不是?"},{"start":634.381,"end":643.767,"text":"我們正在研議當中,如果說議址參考當然我們會去做研議。是啊,那你們都研議了,那為什麼這對我剛剛講的你們不一起研議呢?對啊,大法官也是一樣啊。大法官根據大法官的議址,未來虛偽陳述罪要檢討、修正。然後無故缺席的處罰,無正當理由不提供資料拒絕陣營的處罰都要一併的修正啊。符合大法官的憲法議址要保障人權啊。"},{"start":662.377,"end":664.765,"text":"委員報告我們覺得這情形恐怕不太一樣"},{"start":666.129,"end":694.16,"text":"是到底情形哪裡不一樣我請司法院提份報告給我好不好從大法官憲法判決的一直裡面然後去檢視現在所有的我們訴訟法上的有關於無正當理由缺席然後不提供資料拒絕證言做虛偽陳述等等相關的處罰的規定好不好來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣那麻煩司法院可以一個月之內給我這份報告書好謝謝"},{"start":695.011,"end":698.43,"text":"好謝謝翁委員也謝謝黃副秘書長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時40分）主席好，還有各位委員。在這邊先有請黃副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：副秘書長好。我首先想請教您一個比較基本的問題，請問您認為說實話、誠實是不是做人的基本道理？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們期待每一個人都是誠實、坦誠的人。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。所以誠實應該是屬於個人的基本道德，它是不是一個道德？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：每個人都應該都有這樣的道德。"],["翁委員曉玲：那麼道德可以轉換成為法律義務嗎？如果誠實是屬於個人的道德。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果是在法院的程序裡面具結，那當然要看情形，如果具結以後，卻對案件的事實說謊，這是有處罰，但是其他情形又不盡然相同。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以只有在法院之前不可以說謊，如果說謊的話，就會被處罰；如果是其他的人，尤其是政府官員說謊，就不是屬於法律可以科責的，你的意思是這樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：看在什麼樣的場合，如果政府官員到法院訴訟程序去作證……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以只有法院最大嘛，對不對？只有在法官面前不可以說謊，那在其他的人的面前，在立法委員面前，是可以說謊的，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那要看相關的這些規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：相關的規範。好，我們看一下，這次的憲判字第9號判決社會最覺得訝異的，最不可思議的一段解釋，是大法官認為，行政首長或政府人員在立法院院會、委員會調查程序所做的陳述，就陳述內容所負的責任是政治責任，無涉法律責任，如果行政首長、政府人員在立法院的陳述內容有涉及虛偽陳述引發爭議，乃是屬於政治性的爭議，本人要受到民主問責，就是他自己自負民主問責，最嚴重的話，他就自行請辭，意思是這樣，也就是政府機關人員在接受立法委員質詢時，是可以不用說實話的，他不負誠實的責任，您同意嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官的判決文好像沒有這樣子寫。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有這樣子寫？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：只寫他的責任屬於政治……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他說不負法律責任。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：他還是要負政治責任。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊。好，那所以呢？現在從大法官這號判決裡面，我們來延伸幾個問題，如果今天有人民主張現在刑法裡面處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的，可以怎麼寫？他可以說，人民就陳述內容所負的責任是屬於道德責任，無涉法律責任，人民在行政機關或法院所做的陳述內容，如果有涉及虛偽陳述引發爭議，是屬於道德爭議，本人受到社會譴責，而道德問題是屬於社會關係中去解決，不是屬於行使司法權的法院所宜介入，這段話您同意嗎？如果有人提出這樣子的……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想這個話在……"],["翁委員曉玲：聲請釋憲，我認為刑法現在的處罰虛偽陳述罪是違憲的，您認為大法官會怎麼判？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前大法官並沒有說在訴訟過程中的偽證罪是違憲……"],["翁委員曉玲：同樣的邏輯啊！請問政治責任可不可以轉換成為法律責任？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，大法官已經……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您是完全認同大法官這個見解的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們是司法行政單位，我們沒有那個資格跟立場去說明大法官……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是你們有提案修法的責任，對不對？你們是不是應該要依照大法官憲法解釋的意旨去提案修法呢？大法官認為政治責任不是法律責任，同樣的道理，那麼人民也可以主張今天就所陳述的內容自行負責，這是屬於人民自己的道德責任，說謊是受到社會各界的評價，你們憑什麼要來處罰？我們看一下現在刑法第一百六十八條，跟刑法第一百一十一條才剛被大法官宣告違憲的條文，我們比較看看構成要件到底有什麼不同，除了少了具結之外，都是就所知道的關係事項為虛偽陳述而科處刑責，當然就像剛剛副秘書長講的，唯一的不同是在法院面前不可以說謊，但是在立法委員面前可以說謊。我知道其實副秘書長今天很為難，看到大法官這樣的憲法判決，然後再加上我們現在不管在行政法規、訴訟法規裡面，其實都有很多跟這次立法院職權行使法修的條文是大同小異的。如果大法官今天做了這樣的裁判理由之後，一般老百姓可以主張，同樣都是說謊，同樣沒有誠實說實話的義務，但是為什麼在法律上受到不同的法律評價？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：大法官在這邊有做一些理由上面敘述，這一些顯然不太能夠用到法院的程序。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，就是大法官、司法院最大，對不對？大法官是屬於司法院憲法法庭的一份子，所以無論如何就是司法院最大，在司法院面前不可以說謊，然後在其他的機關面前、在立法院面前，就可以說謊。我只是感到很遺憾，像這樣子的憲法裁判理由裡面，大法官把很多道理混為一談。我們過去講的政治責任，難道不是政治道德嗎？我們講一般的個人人品道德，都可以轉換成為法律責任、法律義務，為什麼政治道德、政治責任不能夠轉換為法律義務？只是因為沒有規定在憲法裡面嗎？憲法裡面有說不可以處罰？憲法裡面也沒有說有授權法院，可以處罰說謊虛偽陳述的人，為什麼我們現在可以處罰？請問副秘書長，為什麼現在可以處罰？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：目前因為法院在具結以後，要為誠實陳述，這個的處罰，我想不只是……"],["翁委員曉玲：因為法律保留，法律已經有規定了，對不對？憲法裡面沒有規定得這麼巨細靡遺，就是授權立法者自己去制定。同樣的道理，在立法院職權行使法也是一樣，我們是踐行三讀的法律程序所制定出來的法律，同樣地也是把一些政治道德、政治責任轉換成為法律義務，其實這個邏輯是一樣的。","當然不僅僅是關於虛偽陳述的問題，對於不提供資料也是一樣的，我想請教程怡怡廳長，行政訴訟法第一百六十九條規定，第三人無正當理由不從提出文書之命者，行政法院可以處罰新臺幣三萬元以下的罰鍰，您認為這樣的規定有沒有必要？"],["程廳長怡怡：我想訴訟法明文規定，應該是有必要才會在法律上這樣規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，如果我們今天依據大法官的憲判的理由，把這條廢了呢？把這條刪除，會影響到你們行政法院的作業嗎？因為大法官認為人民沒有提供資料的義務。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：報告委員，大法官並沒有行政訴訟法，人民在法院的程序裡面，必須……"],["翁委員曉玲：大法官沒有說，但是他在理由裡面講得很清楚，我們不是每個人都要遵守大法官憲法判決的意旨，對不對？所以今天有立法委員或者是你們，應該要主動提出修法啊！依照大法官憲法判決的意旨，要保障人民的自由，保障他們有言論、不言論的自由，保障他們有提供資料跟不提供資料的自由，所以是不是應該要提出修法？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們認為行政訴訟法應該不在這一次大法官憲判的範圍內。"],["翁委員曉玲：喔，是這樣嗎？所以，對於我們之前講的實質廢死案，大法官宣告的，說只有滿足那四條，死刑才要一致決，其他的都可以不用一致決，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：沒有，其他的我們正在研議當中，如果說意旨參考，當然我們會去研議，但是這個……"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊。你們都研議了，那為什麼針對我剛剛講的，你們不一起研議呢？大法官也是一樣啊，根據大法官的意旨，未來對虛偽陳述罪要檢討修正，然後對無故缺席的處罰和對無正當理由不提供資料拒絕證言的處罰，都要一併修正，符合大法官的憲法意旨，要保障人權啊。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們覺得這個情形恐怕不太一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，到底情形哪裡不一樣？我請司法院提份報告給我，好不好？從大法官憲法判決的意旨去檢視現在所有訴訟法上有關無正當理由缺席、不提供資料、拒絕證言、虛偽陳述等等相關處罰的規定，好不好？來比較一下到底有什麼不一樣。那麻煩司法院一個月之內給我這份報告書，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝翁委員，也謝謝黃副秘書長。","接下來請賴惠員委員。賴惠員、賴惠員委員不在。","有請謝委員龍介發言。","先處理會議時間，上午會議時間繼續進行至所有發言登記委員詢答結束。","好，請謝委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},{"id":"156309","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156309","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade432b4dfbc05b98ba3b480ede9050f16a94934db31926c3003ef1174435adc4975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:46:36 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然後所以這個就是需要請7天那家長會各請3到5天然後如果呢3月11號恢復上課了又有小孩確診他又要停課所以等於就他只要一個月內他就會把他所有的家庭照顧假都請完"},{"start":285.304,"end":313.823,"text":"所以為什麼我們今天會非常非常需要這個彈性育嬰的政策因為的確就像剛剛前面的委員也有說其實是真的是非常的不足啦所以剛剛也有提到說要去這個性平法的第16條去修法因為其實到3到6歲這一塊現在目前是沒有被寒跨的可是其實幼兒園停課的規定是寒跨到6歲所以這個部分剛剛有提供提供說會提供給前面的委員這個報告也希望可以到時候一併提供給我那再來第二個部分呢"},{"start":316.732,"end":318.841,"text":"說:「抱歉,我們下夜好了,直接下,因為時間可能會不夠。」"},{"start":319.875,"end":344.95,"text":"好就是說其實我們看到非常多的報告不管是中研院或是經濟學院今年都一直在講說如何去講究這個生育率那其實他們都在講就是說撒錢不一定有用因為觀念轉變年輕的女孩子不願意再拼命生育小孩現金補貼對於中低收入戶的家庭還是有一些短暫的吸引力但是中等家庭比起育兒更重視自己家庭的生活所以我們就發現說其實從各國的研究來看"},{"start":345.951,"end":346.071,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":367.039,"end":367.499,"text":"的親子假﹖"},{"start":383.789,"end":383.849,"text":"﹚張雅琳"},{"start":408.271,"end":436.594,"text":"有機會去提升我們的生育率才有可能有機會去讓我們有更多的小孩這個部分是不是也可以一起來去思考提升我們的產價的部分我們一起來評估好嗎好因為我想就是說育兒不是只有一個家庭的事情還不是只有這個女性的事情是需要整個村莊整個社會整個國家一起來去支持這才有可能真正的釋放女性回到職場這個女性的勞產率才有可能提高謝謝部長"},{"start":439.012,"end":439.052,"text":"謝謝張雅琳"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":972,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時46分）謝謝主席，我們有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好！"],["張委員雅琳：今天我要講的題目也是女性的勞參率，其實在非常多的研究，我想部長也非常清楚嘛！我們必須要支持女性，她才有可能回到職場，所以整體的友善職場就會變成一個非常重要的目標，剛剛前面的委員也有提到關於彈性育嬰假的試辦計畫，那我也可以理解啦！我們的立意是良善的，但是實際上的確只有21家的勞工有來申請，等於超過七成六的試辦單位都是沒有人申請的。","剛剛部長有講一下原因，其實我自己從網路上面也大概google，當然我也有收到一些陳情，我們當時是希望讓父母可以兼顧家庭與工作，但是我收到的意見是說，他們覺得第一個，加退保程序太過繁複，也就是說因為可以領到相關的補助，所以必須要去辦理相關的程序，但是依據試辦原則第八點，受僱者於參加彈性育嬰留職停薪試辦期間是可以繼續參加原有的社會保險，並且可以依據相關的規定請領育嬰留職停薪的相關津貼跟補助，那既然可以參加原有保險，這一點應該不會是問題才對，但是怎麼請領相關的津貼就可能會是一個問題，所以這個部分可能要請勞動部提出相關的解決辦法。","第二個，我們有聽到家長說當他去申請的時候，可能會被關切，就會問你要不要考慮一下？這可能會影響老闆對你的評價，可能會影響到其他同事對你的看法，可能會影響到其他人工作等等，當然我知道我們的計畫上是不得拒絕，但是就是有這樣子的情況發生，所以我想請教部長，針對這兩點，我們有什麼樣的因應措施嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我是不是可以請條平司司長先來回復一下？"],["張委員雅琳：可以，好。"],["黃司長維琛：報告，現在有關加退保，其實那個並不是讓他退，而是做一個註記的通報，因為他是育嬰留停，後面要關連到他的津貼發放的問題，所以他要做通報，現在已經可以線上通報，沒有問題。","第二個，有關潛規則這件事情，其實我們大概期中座談有跟這些廠商去做瞭解，有些有來參與，但是它沒有員工申請，大概有一個原因就是因為天期，我們現在是開放到比較低的天期，比較短，那有的員工是認為他可以用他現在有優於法令的一些假，有的是用特休。因為有的公司願意來參加，它是比較有意願的公司，它會有比較優於法令的一些家庭照顧假等等，員工會優先用了那個假，所以短天期的需求，不見得每一個人都有這樣的需求。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，我想要先確認第一個問題，剛剛是說要做註記嘛！我想問一下，這個東西現在在企業執行，瞭解可以用註記的方式之後，參與的程度有提高嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：這個部分我們都有再一次跟所有事業單位說明，因為它通報的話做一個註記，勞保局那邊就會連結到這個勞工要給他育嬰留職停薪的津貼，相關的程序、流程，我們會跟勞保局這邊再去更加優化。"],["張委員雅琳：我想這個部分，因為12月就要結束了嘛！那12月結束的時候是不是可以來收集企業相關的意見，我們如何可以幫助他們更簡化？提供一些更精進的配套措施，是不是可以在結束之後，1個月內提供我們一個檢討報告？"],["何部長佩珊：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，為什麼今天需要家庭照顧假？為什麼今天需要彈性育嬰留停？我們來看看家庭照顧假怎麼1個月請完，如果一個小孩子在3月2日早上收到通報確診腸病毒，他就會被停課，學校就會請家長帶回去嘛！好，所以這個就需要請7天，家長會各請3.5天。如果3月11號恢復上課了，又有小孩確診，又要停課，等於1個月內他就會把所有的家庭照顧假都請完，所以為什麼我們今天會非常非常需要這個彈性育嬰的政策？因為的確就像前面的委員所說，真的是非常不足啦！所以剛剛也有提到性平法第十六條要去修法，因為3到6歲這一塊目前是沒有被含括的，可是幼兒園停課的規定是含括到6歲，所以這個部分剛剛說會提供報告給前面的委員，希望到時候也可以一併提供給我。","第二個部分，其實我們看到非常多的報告，不管是中研院或是經濟學人今年都一直在講說如何去搶救生育率，他們都在講撒錢不一定有用，因為觀念轉變，年輕的女孩子不願意再拚命生育小孩，現金補貼對於中低收入戶的家庭還是有短暫的吸引力，但是中等家庭比起育兒更重視自己家庭的生活，所以從各國的研究來看，我們已經發現撒錢不一定有用，但是撒錢還是非常需要。同時還有一件事情也非常非常重要，如果我們從北歐的一個觀點及成果來看，它在1980年代提出了一個相關友善的措施，也就是產假，它總共有480天的親子假，可以拆成月、週、日甚至小時來使用，再結合一個更完善的兒童托育政策，所以出生率開始有小幅度的上升。","其實我也想要分享一個看法，針對我們臺灣的產假很少這件事情，這麼多年來已經有非常多的倡議團體一直不停地在爭取，但是我們真的是太少了，相比剛剛講的中國14週、日本14週、韓國90天，新加坡甚至到16週，我們這個8週的部分是不是還有可能來提升？讓女性可以得到更好的休息品質，更好地去支持他，未來才有可能有機會去提升我們的生育率，才有可能有機會去讓我們有更多的小孩，這個部分是不是可以一起來思考呢？提升我們產假的部分。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們一起來評估好嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：好。因為育兒不是只有一個家庭的事情，不是只有女性的事情，其實是需要整個村莊、整個社會、整個國家一起來支持，這樣才有可能真正地去釋放女性回到職場，女性的勞參率才有可能提高，謝謝部長。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的發言。在這邊作一個宣告：等一下在李柏毅委員發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156308","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156308","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade179835a66cb3d04a3b480ede9050f16a94934db31926c300a5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:34:52 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任跟家務分工涉及家內的這個分工的部分是不是並非是用公權力或制度設計可以解決但是政府可以在幾個方面上面去努力分別是這個看一下簡報政府整體服務供給的供給之承諾還有國家"},{"start":247.196,"end":269.412,"text":"對於育兒有兒童之家庭的承諾還有公共化兒童照顧服務的普及程度還有對老年人提供的照顧服務這是四大方向政府可以做的部分雖然這幾年我想政府也是大力在發展這個長照或者是說0到6歲國家一起養的政策但我看還是有限部長知道原因嗎"},{"start":270.834,"end":296.221,"text":"嗯當然這個可能提供的服務他的可禁用性也許這也是一個很有不友善就是雖然說就是對沒錯雖然說就是含有政策方向但是實際執行上面還是有很多問題會讓很多政策變成看得到吃不到或者不好用很難用比如說今年你們勞動部推出的這個彈性育嬰的留職停薪的事辦計畫是"},{"start":297.481,"end":304.781,"text":"是不是成效是不是這個背後的概念很好是背後概念但是實際辦理成效是不是很差"},{"start":306.891,"end":334.684,"text":"對,那是事辦。七成六的事辦單位掛鈴嘛,對不對?部長。原因是什麼?我想請教一下。其實,這個台灣的企業的特性,它在這一種,就是說,因為它是以日跟小時為單位啦。它就是替代,尤其在現在缺工嘛。它的替代人力難找啦。那如果是像快狀的育嬰留庭,這六個月的,那個倒是成效很好。而且那個男性的申請也是達到新高。"},{"start":334.824,"end":345.626,"text":"所以我剛剛說這個計劃本身蠻糟糕的對不對就是說成效啊是不是很差就是你們自己統計嘛報紙都沒有嘛對不對好啦簡單來講沒關係簡單來講這個狀況就是說基本上會去用這個事辦計劃的員工就是沒有請這個比較長的育嬰假的對不對那他又已經回到職場了嘛對不對所以"},{"start":356.889,"end":385.412,"text":"他們會需要用那種短期育嬰流子停薪的員工其實就是比較少數啦那再來是小孩剛上幼兒園或是到托兒所之後其實因為他環境的差異啦或是其實有時候都會有臨時的突發狀況他可能會需要比較有請假的需求所以我在想的是是不是應該要把這種短期的談心的育嬰假適用對象因為本來是0到3嘛我們應該要把它擴大到6歲是不是比較符合家長的需求部長"},{"start":386.152,"end":392.578,"text":"因為既然0到6歲國家一起養那是否也應該在彈性育嬰假的上面擴大到0到6歲我原是指彈性育嬰假擴大0到6歲可是彈性育嬰假"},{"start":401.337,"end":420.95,"text":"性平法對對不對這要涉及修法這就是我後面要講的所以它涉及到修法我只是想說因為你畢竟你的政策目的你就是希望可以打造我剛剛說的這四大方向嘛這四大方向嘛所以這個修法我倒覺得是不是應該要可以去討論也就是去修性別平等工作法的第16條從3歲放寬到6歲"},{"start":424.535,"end":446.061,"text":"本席有跟其他委員有這樣的修法提案我是想要請教部長這部分是不是可以請開始評估說性平法16條的放寬年齡的事宜因為其實這樣子是站在家長的角度這樣是比較適用的吧委員我們的評估好不好對啊我就是我的要求是說是不是可以請你們評估那請問你們大概要多久的時間評估兩個月給您"},{"start":449.015,"end":461.06,"text":"兩個月評估可以說可不可以這樣做對不對好兩個兩個月我是覺得兩個月有點久欸一個月可以嗎這應該是蠻快的事情啊因為我們是希望幫這個我們的這些家長來推動啊"},{"start":464.873,"end":477.222,"text":"我們這個社會共識真的也是要凝聚一下因為彈性育嬰留庭那個意見就很多了那家中育有小孩的也是希望說家庭照顧假可以延長或是放寬這個彈性工時但這個比較複雜但是我還是想要請教部長有沒有可能家庭照顧假也從7天放寬到14天"},{"start":489.793,"end":517.662,"text":"因為其實這個沒有這跟我們喊那些就是其他國家不同這是有需求的喔你可以你可以有這樣的放寬可是委員指的這個家庭照顧價是顧是簡單來講我做一個小結啦好不好我剛講的部分就是請你們去業生一併評估一併評估好不好就是說無論是育嬰價或是談心就是談心育嬰價其實最重要的還有這個家庭照顧價就是剛講的吧我前面就講這些數據跟你講這些東西其實部長你也都知道"},{"start":518.479,"end":547.847,"text":"你也都知道嘛但是你就是有沒有再去更細的去做或是去站在他們角度去思考嘛所以你們站在家長的角度去思考這個政策所以性別平等法的第16條的育嬰留職停薪從3歲放緩到6歲第20條的家庭照顧假如果從7天放緩到14天其實我覺得整體來講他是符合現行國家的這個0到6歲國家一起養的政策更可以減輕這個父母職的照顧責任所以這一開始我在講這個女性的部分"},{"start":548.527,"end":561.694,"text":"那同時也是可以讓女性的勞動力釋放的好方法所以你前面不是也說嗎你們就是希望各年齡層或者各性別的這種勞產率可以提高啊這就是我們我在提的這個概念就是這樣這是有脈絡的所以"},{"start":564.855,"end":579.498,"text":"我覺得這部分是不是可以請勞動部進促評估這個可行性而且也希望說是不是可以提報這個行政院的版本可以以示我們行政部門的決心就是評估之後因為我覺得這個東西我們就是站在這個女性參與剛剛前面都講得很清楚"},{"start":580.279,"end":606.381,"text":"好然後再來最後一個產假的部分也是啊因為我們都圍繞著這個主題在講嘛我們也知道現在剛剛前面我有說你今天的報告有講少子化是缺工一個很大的原因嘛那基本上少子化這長期以來也都是國安的問題啊所以我想要問一下如果你認為這個部長如果產假啦運營假啦家庭照顧假增加他是不是可以比較一條龍的照顧可以更好呢"},{"start":608.889,"end":634.011,"text":"這個部分是不是也可以並評估一條龍您是就是說剛剛產價運價家庭照顧價這個是不是一起進去去思考我會並評估給您好嗎對啊因為我覺得這是這不是我們國家的有先例其實其他國家在應對小子化都有這個部分所以爭取這個產價並不是隨口說說之前有好幾次專報也都說我們是我們是還有之前也有一份報告也將近六成女性覺得說那個價這個運價不夠對不對"},{"start":636.773,"end":658.842,"text":"所以其實我也要說以往都覺得要對標歐美國家我現在也給你看一個新聞嘛其實這個連我們旁邊的臨近中國大陸都有感於這個人口漸漸邁入老化他們在推所謂三胎那我想要講的是這連他們都在講說他們的全境產價是98天起跳那北上廣山大都市是98加60是158天"},{"start":661.283,"end":685.094,"text":"那廣東省全金更是98加80是178啊所以我要提的就是說我剛剛講的這些訴求我不是隨便亂喊啊其實很多人在做這件事情啊所以我就想說如果你們這麼消極會讓我們覺得說你是不是真的沒有這麼想要改善我們的生育率啊我想請問部長怎麼看啊我是希望這個是不是可以好好的評估其實我們我們一起來評估好嗎"},{"start":686.391,"end":694.306,"text":"好 那就一併都是兩個月把這三件事情放在一起評估給本席好嗎然後去調查是是是好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":894,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時35分）謝謝主席！有請我們何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長辛苦了。其實你們今天的報告也有寫到缺工的幾個主要原因，當然一個是少子化，後面還有包含福利、待遇不符合等，我就簡單從一個小的地方切入。我想要問一下部長，依照職工福利金條例的規定，職工福利金的保管動用，應由依法組織的工會跟各工廠、或是礦場、或其他企業組織共同設置職工福利委員會負責辦理，我想請教部長的是職工福利金的動支內容有無限制？"],["何部長佩珊：有。"],["廖委員偉翔：有嘛，對不對？那請教部長，你認為健康檢查費用應該由誰負擔？"],["何部長佩珊：雇主負擔。"],["廖委員偉翔：依照職業安全衛生法第二十條以及勞工健康保護規則第十七條，反正就是雇主要負擔啦！但是實務上常常面臨一種情況，其實我們在坊間也有聽到，就是雇主會要求或協議由職工福利金負擔員工的健檢費用，請教部長，這是否已經違法？"],["何部長佩珊：是，是違法。"],["廖委員偉翔：是違法喔！有鑑於實務上還是有部分公司可能是對法令不熟悉，他就去拗職工福利金去負擔員工的健檢費用，所以我在想這個部分是不是可以請勞動部再發函公告，就是再發函提醒，提醒雇主不要觸法，然後你們後續在檢查部分應該也要再加強。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來就是大缺工潮已經來臨了，並且從人口結構來看，未來問題只會愈來愈嚴重，其實這些在報告中都有寫，我就不再重複。我想現階段你們應該也是有共識，就是提高各年齡層的勞參率，這會是一個相對比較主要的方式，但是根據主計處的人力運用調查，未就業原因中有五個項目是女性高於男性，我想請教部長，你認為是什麼因素導致女性的勞參率偏低？"],["何部長佩珊：因為女性要照顧，不論是育兒或顧老。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，謝謝部長，你分析得很好，就是基本上要照顧子女、照顧年長的家屬、照顧失能家屬、做家事跟身心障礙等等，也就是照顧以及家庭分工、家務分工會成為損害女性的工作權跟經濟獨立的重要原因，當然這個部分就會衍生出我們女性的時間貧窮、財務貧窮甚至公共參與率低等等的問題，所以基本上，我覺得問題就是女性不是不願意就業，而是這些牽絆跟責任導致她無法就業，結果就是經濟無法獨立，她經濟沒辦法獨立就可能會落入不好的循環。男性退休之後可能有勞保、勞退，但女性如果沒有工作就不行，所以簡單來講，這是女性的困境。部長，我們面對這樣的照顧責任跟家務分工，涉及家內的分工部分，並非是用公權力或制度設計可以解決的，但是政府可以在幾個方面上去努力，分別是：一、政府整體服務供給之承諾；二、國家對育有兒童之家庭的承諾；三、公共化兒童照顧服務的普及程度；四、對老年人提供的照顧服務，這是政府可以做的四大方向，雖然這幾年政府也是大力在發展長照或者是0到6歲國家一起養的政策，但我看還是有限啦！部長知道原因嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，這個可能是提供的服務、他的可進用性也許也是有不友善。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，沒錯，雖然說是有政策方向，但實際執行上面還是有很多問題，會讓很多政策變成看得到、吃不到或者不好用、很難用，譬如今年你們勞動部推出的彈性育嬰留職停薪試辦計畫，背後的概念很好，但是實際辦理成效是不是很差？"],["何部長佩珊：對，那是試辦，確實……"],["廖委員偉翔：七成六的試辦單位掛零，對不對？部長。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：原因是什麼？我想請教一下。"],["何部長佩珊：其實臺灣企業的特性，因為是以日跟小時為單位，尤其現在缺工嘛！它的替代人力難找，如果是像塊狀的育嬰留停是6個月的，那個倒是成效很好，而且男性的申請也是達到新高。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛說這個計畫本身滿糟糕的，就是說成效是不是很差？這是你們自己統計嘛！報紙都沒有，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我跟您解釋，塊狀的育嬰留停成效很好……"],["廖委員偉翔：好啦！簡單來講……"],["何部長佩珊：可是彈性的部分真的是不好。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，簡單來講，這個狀況就是說基本上會去用這個試辦計畫的員工，就是沒有請比較長的育嬰假的，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：那他又已經回到職場了，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以需要用那種短期育嬰留職停薪的員工，其實就是比較少數啦！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來就是小孩剛上幼兒園或是到托兒所之後，因為環境的差異，其實有時候會有臨時的突發狀況，他可能比較有請假的需求，所以我在想的是，是不是應該要把這種短期的彈性育嬰假適用對象，因為本來是0到3歲！我們應該要把它擴大到6歲，是不是比較符合家長的需求？部長，因為既然0到6歲國家一起養，是否也應該在彈性育嬰假上面擴大為0到6歲？"],["何部長佩珊：委員是指彈性育嬰假擴大為0到6歲，可是彈性育嬰假……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，這個部分就要涉及修法啦！"],["何部長佩珊：性平法。"],["廖委員偉翔：對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：那個要修，對。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個要涉及修法，這就是我後面要講的。"],["何部長佩珊：可是委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以它涉及到修法，我只是想說畢竟你的政策目的就是希望可以打造我剛剛說的這四大方向嘛！所以這個修法我倒覺得是不是應該要去討論，也就是去修性別平等工作法第十六條，從3歲放寬到6歲？本席跟其他委員也有這樣的修法提案，我是想要請教部長，是不是可以開始評估性平法第十六條放寬年齡的事宜？因為站在家長的角度，這樣是比較適用的吧！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們來評估好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：對啊！我的要求就是說是不是可以請你們評估？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來評估研究。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問你們大概要多久的時間評估？"],["何部長佩珊：2個月給您，可以嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：2個月評估可不可以這樣做，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，2個月。我是覺得2個月有點久耶！1個月可以嗎？這應該是滿快的事情，因為我們是希望幫這些家長來推動。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個社會共識真的也是要凝聚一下。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那就2個月。"],["何部長佩珊：因為光彈性育嬰留停，那個意見就很多了。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那就2個月，好不好？2個月。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：那家中育有小孩的也是希望家庭照顧假可以延長或是放寬彈性工時，這個是比較複雜，但是我還是想要請教部長，有沒有可能家庭照顧假也從7天放寬到14天？因為這跟我們喊的其他國定假日不同，這是有需求的哦！你可以有這樣的放寬，可是……"],["何部長佩珊：委員指的家庭照顧假是顧……"],["廖委員偉翔：簡單來講，我做一個小結啦！我剛剛講的部分請你們一併去評估。"],["何部長佩珊：那個前段是一樣的。"],["廖委員偉翔：一併評估，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們一起。"],["廖委員偉翔：無論是彈性育嬰假，其實最重要的還有家庭照顧假，就是剛剛講的嘛！我前面講的這些數據跟你講的這些東西，其實部長你也都知道，你也都知道嘛！但是你有沒有更細地去做或是站在他們的角度去思考？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們一起評估好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們站在家長的角度去思考這個政策，性別平等法第十六條的育嬰留職停薪從3歲放寬到6歲，第二十條的家庭照顧假如果從7天放寬到14天，我覺得整體來講，它是符合現行0到6歲國家一起養的政策，更可以減輕父母職的照顧責任，所以這是一開始我在講女性的部分，同時也是可以讓女性的勞動力釋放的好方法，你前面不是也說嗎？你們希望各年齡層或者是各性別的勞參率可以提高，我提的這個概念就是這樣，這是有脈絡的，所以我覺得這部分是不是可以請勞動部儘速評估可行性？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：而且也希望是不是可以提報行政院的版本，以示我們行政部門的決心？就是評估之後，因為我覺得這個東西就是站在女性的勞動參與，剛剛前面都講得很清楚。","最後一個，產假的部分也是，因為我們都圍繞著這個主題在講嘛！前面我也有說了，你今天的報告有講，少子化是缺工一個很大的原因，基本上少子化長期以來也都是國安的問題，所以我想要問一下部長，如果產假、育嬰假、家庭照顧假要增加，可以比較有一條龍的照顧，是不是更好呢？這個部分是不是也可以一併評估？"],["何部長佩珊：一條龍，您是說產假、育嬰假、照顧……"],["廖委員偉翔：就是說產假、育嬰假、家庭照顧假，這個是不是一起進去思考呢？"],["何部長佩珊：我們合併評估給您，好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：對啊！因為我覺得這個不是我們國家有先例，其實其他國家在應對少子化都有這個部分，所以爭取產假並不是隨口說說。之前有好幾次專報都提到，還有之前你也有一份報告，將近6成女性覺得育嬰假不夠嘛！對不對？其實我也要說，以往都覺得要對標歐美國家，我現在給您看一個新聞，連鄰近的中國大陸都有感於人口漸漸邁入老化，他們在推所謂3胎啊！我想要講的是這個，他們的全境產假是98天起跳，北上廣三大都市是98加60，是158天，廣東省全境更是98加80，是178天啊！所以我剛剛講的這些訴求不是隨便亂喊，其實很多人在做這件事情，如果你們這麼消極，會讓我們覺得你是不是真的沒有這麼想要改善生育率？我想要請問部長怎麼看？我是希望這個是不是可以好好地評估？"],["何部長佩珊：我們一起來評估好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那就一併都是2個月，把這三件事情放在一起評估給本席，好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：還要去調查。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖偉翔委員。","接下來請張雅琳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156306","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156306","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade0d0bda0b582f7415325639a1896b059d94934db31926c3005427d115afefc0b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T11:45:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T11:50:59+08:00","duration":300,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":16.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.53471875,"end":21.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.54221875,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.925968750000003,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.625968750000002,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.566593750000003,"end":29.528468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.203468750000003,"end":37.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.04596875,"end":41.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.10034375,"end":45.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.49221875,"end":63.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.15596875,"end":69.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.64034375,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.04909375,"end":75.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.26784375000001,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.63471875,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.08159375000001,"end":81.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.98846875000001,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.85721875,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.58659375,"end":91.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.86471875000001,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.68221875,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.50471875000001,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.96409375,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.80284375000001,"end":112.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.38471875,"end":112.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.05534375,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.84846875000001,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.46409375,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.06721875000001,"end":122.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.35346875,"end":123.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.97784375,"end":124.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.76659375000001,"end":127.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.58471875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.08659375000002,"end":131.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.39846875,"end":137.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.35096875000002,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.02534375000002,"end":147.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":149.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.52221875,"end":155.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.83784375000002,"end":156.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.12034375000002,"end":159.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.47846875000002,"end":163.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.15721875,"end":165.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.11471875,"end":166.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.63346875000002,"end":168.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.46409375000002,"end":172.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.35409375,"end":175.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.83471875,"end":178.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.24346875,"end":180.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.99846875,"end":184.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.47034375,"end":191.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.83221875,"end":192.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.43534375000002,"end":194.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.25784375,"end":197.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.53596875000002,"end":198.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.60721875000002,"end":204.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.89346875,"end":205.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.74534375000002,"end":208.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.34846875000002,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.63471875000002,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"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Thank you."},{"start":284.35,"end":286.751,"text":"Thank you."}]},"gazette":{"lineno":674,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時46分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長。"],["李部長遠：鄭委員，你好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好。所以要請我們所有委員能夠支持本席的提案，因為各族群──阿美族、賽夏族、排灣族、噶瑪蘭族、撒奇萊雅族、泰雅族、太魯閣族、布農族、賽德克族都有，而且這些歷史事件原民會都有，都請了專家學者，從我在中央原民會當處長的時候就開始編纂，清清楚楚都有！所以，期盼文化部能夠支持，各委員能夠支持本席所提出來的草案。以上，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，部長請回。","現在請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}},{"id":"156305","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156305","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade16e1c96857f7324fb22eacfd31272a3d94934db31926c3001a911ee759332f825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:41:36 - 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颱風後要不要修繕很多的都猶豫啦什麼時候可以開始進行這個登記的程序不要環評走完然後讀記走完之後這可能都是兩三年假設環評假設最快一年一年半"},{"start":390,"end":395.177,"text":"那都計又在走那走完之後再來進行登記那恐怕這兩三年居民都必須在等待"},{"start":396.107,"end":422.323,"text":"我們會來努力部長能夠趕在今年年底前的時候同步進行也就是說環評走環評的然後讀記走讀記的但是預登記的部分跟高雄市政府來溝通預先來做登記至少在區塊在要土地要這個錢或者要房型先做登記但是登記完了還是有可能會做改變但是至少你開始走這個階段因為那需要溝通協調的過程"},{"start":423.444,"end":453.324,"text":"你出來之後你才能夠更清楚的估出你到底需要多少土地需要多少的這些房子需要多少的這些現金流所以我覺得那一塊能不能先年底前做一個預登記部長可以朝這個方向來努力嗎我們可以朝這個方向努力好不好 儘快溝通部長儘快跟高雄市陳吉邁市長來儘快溝通我希望年底前能夠進行不要等到環評或者等到整個都計的程序走完這個恐怕都要一兩年以上的時間老百姓沒辦法等那麼久了"},{"start":453.684,"end":458.111,"text":"是 我們一起來努力好不好 年底前我希望能夠進行預登記的這樣程序 好嗎"},{"start":459.284,"end":487.623,"text":"部長可以嗎?我們來領略接下來我請教一下這個設宅的部分也遇到了一些問題當時的時候我們希望對於有些部分需要安置的部分能夠給予設宅的一個處理但是內政部好像有一些不同意見他希望不要破壞掉原來內政部的設宅的一些規定那能不能請如果真的遇到困難能不能請經濟部就做一個專案的方式做一個專案的方式針對於"},{"start":489.004,"end":502.658,"text":"一般的6加3跟弱勢戶的12加3來做處理這個市長跟部長們在地方的會議上也都對鄉親說了能不能技術用專案的方式來再處理讓這個涉宰的案件能夠盡快來啟動"},{"start":504.299,"end":527.257,"text":"我們來協商看看努力看看好不好盡量有朝這個方向這個我還是要請部長要跟院長跟副院長要做個報告一下這個案子恐怕不能再拖了是那我希望涉宅競速的定案之後然後讓整個這個整個程序能夠盡快的做啟動因為你涉宅一定要定案了之後老百姓才"},{"start":527.757,"end":538.334,"text":"更好去做出一些相關的選擇跟決定他才清楚他所有的權利義務事項好不好好 朝年底來這個預端季的方向來前進好 謝謝部長 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﹏﹏"},{"start":56.638,"end":57.679,"text":"目前我們已經在瞭解中"},{"start":76.94,"end":105.203,"text":"有結果嗎?跟委員報告因為就是昨天因為網路上面有很多的這方面的新聞以後我們已經有請台北國稅局因為這次他是主辦單位那請台北國稅局去洽廠商瞭解所有的系統還有就是所有的運作的過程那也跟委員報告其實台北國稅局已經把那個廠商的這個電腦系統抽獎系統的相關資料都已經帶回局裡面去了目前正在做這個檢視當中"},{"start":107.742,"end":119.775,"text":"有沒有可能駭客入侵?這也一併在了解。外界啊,跟著就有人跟我提到,說強烈質疑這四位重複抽到大獎的。"},{"start":121.815,"end":123.636,"text":"你現在來講就是那個比例很低很低"},{"start":139.705,"end":164.517,"text":"請問你啊,你那個父母到底是多少?父母因為他的三次抽獎,因為他們可以參加就是第一次第二次第三次他只要連續有去幾點數有捐贈發票進行這個整個活動的一些遊戲規則的話都可以參加抽獎而且也可以累計抽獎的次數那這個部分因為他有涉及到一個比較細的統計資料是不是我可以會後再另外提供給委員好嗎?"},{"start":165.523,"end":170.249,"text":"因為原來昨天講了9萬,今天講了12萬,到底是多少?"},{"start":177.307,"end":195.804,"text":"什麼時候可以有結果嗎?應該這個統計表應該今天下午應該就可以提供給委員明天可以明天以前可以公佈他嗎?正式的報告那就要看今天我們那個整個調查過程就是發現他每一個環節到底實際上的狀況是怎樣這個部分我沒有辦法"},{"start":196.825,"end":203.666,"text":"你需要法務部或事務發部幫你們嗎?事務發部這方面數字比較清楚,事務會方面你們來做,大家都覺得你們可能不夠力。不過我想我們先自己努力看看,如果需要其他機關的協助,我們也會麻煩其他方法。三天以內可以把結果出來嗎?因為明天可能放假,說不定。明天可能放假,然後就沒有了。"},{"start":224.85,"end":225.01,"text":"議員：賴士葆議員：賴士葆"},{"start":255.074,"end":257.296,"text":"議員,因為這個系統是廠商﹑外包給廠商來設計跟處理的"},{"start":276.408,"end":279.69,"text":"您請問我想請那個司法院的黃副秘書長請黃副秘書長我就請問你啊這個在民主國家是人民最大還是官員最大?"},{"start":304.74,"end":322.671,"text":"我想民主國家所有的政府的人都是要對民眾負責嘛對嘛所有的任何的措施就是人民最大人民做的直接民權就是公投代議事包括立委包括這個有大法官屬於代議事我這樣講我對吧公投的部分不是我這樣講我對吧我請問你公投是直接民權然後這個這個"},{"start":333.394,"end":355.731,"text":"我們的立委的﹑立出來的法律以及大法官的解釋是屬於大議事 這個講法對吧我想大法官應該不是大議啦當然大議啊 這是蘇永青以前當過你們司法院的副院長吧 他也是他公開寫的啊這個是大議事 這個不是直接民權 最少不是直接民權吧"},{"start":358.148,"end":375.201,"text":"對不對 這不是直接明確 所以我們很清楚 現在民進黨的委員開口閉口講說哎呀你不要做違憲 如果要真的講啊 你給吳思耀多少時間 那給我多少時間啊 這個主席啊 你不要站起來讓我講話 不要超過兩分鐘 不要緊張喔 不要超過兩分鐘吳思耀委員不斷地強調說不要做違憲的壘犯 民進黨就是違憲的壘犯"},{"start":385.452,"end":392.417,"text":"韓國憲法講的很清楚。中華民國主權包括台灣地區跟大陸地區他們打死都不承認。這個就是到底的你既然要說中華民國憲法要不要違憲。現在整個政策都在違憲了。"},{"start":403.114,"end":433.114,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":433.854,"end":459.001,"text":"雖然治理行間講的但是實際上就實質廢死老闆心當然不能接受要怎麼辦呢你說修憲處理這怎麼修憲處理呢當然就是公投裏面公投復決法律跟復決大法官的這個憲法法庭或者是憲法法庭的一個裁判文為什麼不可以我覺得"},{"start":460.356,"end":488.767,"text":"最早的民進黨的先進門還要整個來講要制憲了用公投來整個推翻中華民國憲法都可以這樣做了為什麼我們不可以去對於大法官的制憲來加以公投我們真的不懂啊當大法官不斷的扭曲自己不斷的指向權力靠攏不斷的已經變成過街老鼠的時候人民要起來講話這就是公投法"},{"start":489.427,"end":489.607,"text":"謝謝賴委員,謝謝黃富民組長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":655,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時31分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請財政部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：次長，從昨天開始到今天，有件事不斷延燒，我想你應該知道我要問你什麼，也就是雲端種樹抽獎活動，我的標題寫，這是大作弊！我們看結果，居然有四個人重複中大獎。如果是一個大獎、一個小獎，或都是小獎，還沒有關係；但都是中大獎，比如有人抽到兩支iPhone，兩部Dyson，這就讓人感覺財政部有問題啊！我問你，廠商有作弊嗎？"],["李次長慶華：目前我們已經在了解中。"],["賴委員士葆：有結果嗎？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，因為昨天網路上有很多這方面的新聞，我們已經請主辦單位臺北國稅局接洽廠商，了解所有的系統及運作過程。也跟委員報告，其實臺北國稅局已經把廠商的電腦抽獎系統的相關資料帶回局裡去了，目前正在檢視當中。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有可能是駭客入侵？"],["李次長慶華：也一併在了解中。"],["賴委員士葆：剛才有人跟我提到，外界強烈質疑這四位重複抽到大獎的是財政部裡面的人？"],["李次長慶華：不是……"],["賴委員士葆：是這樣子嗎？"],["李次長慶華：剛才羅智強委員也有質詢，我們很快地請臺北國稅局去查證，都不是國稅局的……"],["賴委員士葆：都不是？"],["李次長慶華：都不是財政部的同仁。"],["賴委員士葆：其實那個比例很低、很低啊！請問分母到底是多少？"],["李次長慶華：因為可以抽獎三次，也就是參加者可以參加第一次、第二次和第三次，只要有連續集點數、有捐贈發票、有依照活動規則進行遊戲的都可以參加抽獎，而且可以累計抽獎次數。由於這部分有涉及到一些比較細的統計資料，是不是我會後再另外提供給委員，好嗎？因為我現在……"],["賴委員士葆：昨天講9萬，今天講12萬，到底是多少？"],["李次長慶華：我可能要另外麻煩臺北國稅局詳細的分析，然後再提供給委員參考。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以有結果？"],["李次長慶華：今天下午應該就可以把統計表提供給委員。"],["賴委員士葆：明天以前可以公布答案嗎？正式的報告。"],["李次長慶華：這要看今天的調查過程而定，也就是每一個環節及實際上的狀況是怎樣，這部分我沒有把握明天一定會有結果。"],["賴委員士葆：你們需不需要法務部或數發部幫忙？數發部對這方面的數字比較清楚。數位方面由你們來做，大家都覺得你們可能不夠力，會不會？"],["李次長慶華：我們先自己努力看看，如果需要其他機關的協助，我們也會麻煩……"],["賴委員士葆：結果可以在三天以內出來嗎？說不定明天放假，然後就沒有了！接著也是放假日，這件事就沒有了，但外界非常關注這件事。"],["李次長慶華：委員，我們一定會儘快……"],["賴委員士葆：三天可以嗎？三天？"],["李次長慶華：我真的沒有辦法在這邊承諾，因為不是我們……要看整個系統的狀況，還有資料複雜度以及整個驗證的情形，所以我只能跟委員說一定會儘快。"],["賴委員士葆：你敢不敢保證廠商絕對沒有作弊？絕對不會有駭客入侵這兩種情形？"],["李次長慶華：我不敢在這邊打包票。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們就很擔心了。財政部管我們稅的資料，若被駭客入侵了，那麼我們所有人、幾百萬戶的報稅資料通通被駭客入侵……"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，這個系統外包給廠商設計跟處理，所以這部分我們沒辦法保證！但財資中心所管理的所有納稅人的資料，我們可以掛保證，絕對不會有問題。"],["賴委員士葆：好，請回。請司法院黃副秘書長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：請問在民主國家是人民最大，還是官員最大？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：民主國家所有政府的人，都是要對民眾負責。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛。所有任何的措施，就是人民最大，人民做的直接民權就是公投，代議士包括立委、包括大法官，都屬於代議士，我這樣講，對吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：公投的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我這樣的講法，對嗎？我請問你，公投是直接民權，立委立出來的法律以及大法官的解釋，是屬於代議士，這個講法對吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想大法官應該不是代議。"],["賴委員士葆：當然代議啊。這是蘇永欽，以前當過司法院的副院長，他公開寫的啊。這個是代議士，這個不是直接民權，最少不是直接民權，對不對？這不是直接民權，所以我們很清楚，現在民進黨的委員開口閉口就說：「唉呀！你們不要違憲。」如果要真的講……"],["主席：你給吳思瑤多少時間，不給我多少時間你不要站起來，讓我講完，不超過2分鐘，你不要緊張，不會超過2分鐘。","吳思瑤委員不斷強調不要做違憲的累犯，民進黨就是危險的累犯。中華民國憲法講的很清楚，中華民國主權包括臺灣地區跟大陸地區，他們打死都不承認，這個就是道地的。你既然要說中華民國憲法，說不要違憲，現在整個政策都在違憲，只要兩岸交流一多馬上就抬出國安法來，而且民進黨委員居然還提可以用這個來解散一個政黨，這種話都說出來了，真的是違憲累犯，就是民進黨，還有誰？我們來看，不管怎麼樣，這個看民意，民意最大，八成以上的都反對廢死，大法官卻實質廢死，雖然字裡行間講的，但是實際上就是實質廢死，老百姓當然不能接受。怎麼辦呢？你說修憲處理，這個怎麼修憲處理呢？當然就是公投，複決法律跟複決大法官的憲法法庭，或者是憲法法庭的裁判文，為什麼不可以？最早的民進黨先進們還要制憲，用公投來推翻中華民國憲法，都可以這樣做了，為什麼我們不可以去對於大法官的釋憲來加以公投？我們真的不懂啊。當大法官不斷地扭曲自己，不斷地只向權力靠攏，不斷地已經變成過街老鼠的時候，人民要起來講話。這就是公投法的精髓，有什麼不可以？我就不知道為什麼是累犯？如果真的是累犯，民進黨的很多先進都是累犯，現在就正在進行式，將中華民國憲法視若無物。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴委員，謝謝黃副秘書長。","接下來，有請翁委員曉玲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},{"id":"156303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade9392880c73882a3f325639a1896b059d94934db31926c300a2f0af228fb527a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:32:42 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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T11:32:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T11:42:57+08:00","duration":615,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.4397187500000004,"end":4.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.83159375,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.02971875,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.72159375,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.062843750000003,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.85909375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.90534375,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.59284375,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.27534375,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.53221875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.03846875,"end":33.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.979093750000004,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.09721875,"end":35.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.822843750000004,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.97471875,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.05034375,"end":39.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.56909375,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.88096875,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.45034375,"end":50.065343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.75409375,"end":43.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.23034375,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.399093750000006,"end":47.635343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.065343750000004,"end":50.132843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.132843750000006,"end":51.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.90471875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.97534375,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.06784375,"end":65.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.48471875,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.96971875,"end":70.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.15909375000001,"end":71.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.81284375,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.41159375000001,"end":75.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.85034375000001,"end":76.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.72784375,"end":77.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.16221875000001,"end":78.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.83284375000001,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.77346875,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.08534375,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.33409375000001,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.71346875,"end":93.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.87284375,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.61034375000001,"end":154.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.43284375000002,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.69784375,"end":165.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.47346875000002,"end":171.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.08409375000002,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.69096875000002,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.07034375,"end":217.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.96721875,"end":227.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.55659375000002,"end":228.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.09221875,"end":229.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.62784375,"end":231.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.16346875000002,"end":233.32784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.18034375000002,"end":243.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.47409375,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.24596875,"end":246.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.09784375,"end":247.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.45971875,"end":258.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.60221875,"end":266.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.29721875,"end":270.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.38534375,"end":286.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.10846875000004,"end":288.5428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草案來說不義遺址要如何保存活化怎麼做怎麼修復那又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義是我們今天在教文文化委員會要討論到的一個重點這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有一些教育的意義可以認同嗎"},{"start":155.552,"end":178.625,"text":"是部長那你有聽過清德宗嗎?顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝,部長知道是誰嗎?我不知道,我對清朝知道的不多不太知道沒關係我們分享一下是光緒皇帝那我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗請問部長知道是誰嗎?"},{"start":180.214,"end":197.586,"text":"我知道欸。好,輿論認為是現在的賴清德總統,宛如讓台灣的生活在威權統治之下。所以網路輿論稱他為清德中。我在引述的是網路輿論。那我想要跟你分享的是,我們看到PTT喔,很多人啊,"},{"start":198.426,"end":216.554,"text":"覺得台灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期我是不是具體也建議一下部長我們先看一下這個案例在賴清德拆南鐵逼90歲老人兩小時搬家自救會的會長怒"},{"start":219.039,"end":229.412,"text":"我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目那這算不算是不義?"},{"start":230.763,"end":258.415,"text":"那當然它不是遺址,可能要改成不義場域。我可以回答,假如我知道的話南鐵當初是中央通過由地方來執行,就是這樣,這麼簡單的一個概念,可是大家要把這個錯誤,那我想問你,你說中央通過,那地方可以去執行嗎?當時他所面對的態度,新聞畫面都有,如果你要全部推給馬維拉,那我想他既然認為這是中央的決策,他可以不去執行啊?"},{"start":259.67,"end":285.959,"text":"那現在他看到了他還是實際的去執行他面對民眾的陳情面對民眾的血淚他當時的回應呢今天我們不在這邊具體的去闡述過程但我要講的是我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20至今因為時間點有包含現在所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用我們用不義常譽不義"},{"start":287.499,"end":312.435,"text":"現在的地址我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做一個闡述但是不義遺址我要講的是我們今天不是要針對賴總統我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例讓大家能夠清楚的明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義是全民的不義是歷史所探究的不義嗎剛剛是先引言"},{"start":313.456,"end":325.461,"text":"我們之前公佈院版草案的時候就有媒體來問我不義遺址保存條例的看法我的態度很明確就是我認為歷史好的壞的全部都要被記下這句話你可以認同嗎?"},{"start":326.923,"end":345.738,"text":"當然當然要認同可以吧是好或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞網路輿論但是歷史應該要整體的全部做保留讓孩子能夠知道讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照妖鏡看到全面對嗎"},{"start":347.332,"end":369.466,"text":"有歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的一個借鏡。沒有歷史的話我們不知道我們應該往前要怎麼走。所有歷史曾經發過的悲劇希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的曾經發生過刑求、口供、槍決的事情會發生在台灣民主時代的這一刻嗎?不會。"},{"start":372.219,"end":399.629,"text":"會因為思想把你逮捕嗎?刑求嗎?槍決嗎?不會。那就是因為台灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代。它不會倒回去。你說對嗎?我支持。所以我剛剛開眾民意就講,不義遺址保存條例草案,我們支持啊。但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你,請問一下你有看過賽德克巴萊嗎?"},{"start":403.127,"end":413.337,"text":"對,謝謝你支持,我們都支持這是非常好的一部國片但裡面所闡述的內容呢我們就講鄭成功就好了鄭成功對於追隨他的難民"},{"start":414.827,"end":436.172,"text":"移民來到這邊他是超級英雄到現在台灣四處可見顏平郡王室顏平北路顏平中學等名稱但當鄭成功降臨在台灣這片土地的時候對於當時所居住的原住民卻可能是毀天滅地的一個災禍如果歷史背景是在這樣的情境當中那麼誰是義誰是不義"},{"start":439.629,"end":452.931,"text":"現在我們看到賽德克巴萊您說您支持裡面的內容不需要我再闡述為什麼這些賽德克巴萊人他們最後群起要去反對甚至做出這些舉動"},{"start":454.87,"end":479.171,"text":"當中誰是義誰是不義這也是我們今天希望能夠探討我們在界定不義遺址保存現在要怎麼去界定他的時間軸我們更希望這一些當時你剛剛說的有所謂的槍決有所謂的迫害人權當時也有啊可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案我們卻沒有看到你把它納入"},{"start":480.49,"end":507.182,"text":"難道他就可以被忘記?他就可以不用保存?他就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎?所以今天站在這裡的所有委員還是再一次強調意識形態是你所說的我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史這樣子我的態度很明顯我想"},{"start":508.683,"end":535.703,"text":"院長部長您怎麼看我忽然覺得今天的所有討論都非常好因為至少國民黨的議員都加入討論對不義遺址提出新的看法我個人覺得非常好我覺得所有事情經過這個過程會讓大家看得更清楚歷史我覺得是件好事我們一起來討論未來我希望列入這個法案大家一點一點討論好嗎所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整是嗎"},{"start":536.323,"end":561.289,"text":"我沒辦法決定一切。沒關係,我沒辦法讓你決定。我說你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的,賽德克巴萊也是啊。那你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見,你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分,能夠再拉。大家一起討論吧。那你認不認同嗎?我不管認不認同,我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把台灣所發生過的所有悲劇"},{"start":562.714,"end":579.481,"text":"再講一遍提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品比如228的電影就是悲情城市白色恐怖的電影就是姑林街少年殺人事件這一次韓國得獎的諾貝爾獎的作家韓江"},{"start":584.463,"end":611.209,"text":"他的作品就有關周事件。換句話說當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇他反而是一個最深層的故事我非常認同所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入而不是你所界定原本的這個草案的悲劇的時間軸所以最後我要講文化政策的一個制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性需不需要考慮到包容性我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究謝謝"},{"start":614.253,"end":614.273,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":621,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時32分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：羅委員，你好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，今天審查不義遺址保存條例草案，請部長來說文解字一下，請問什麼是「義」，你覺得？"],["李部長遠：「義」？"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，可以跟我分享一下嗎？"],["李部長遠：「義」這個字看你要擺在哪裡來講，就是一種道義，是心裡所做、所擔的道義，我覺得最珍貴的就是人與人之間的道義，大概就這個意思吧。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想跟你分享一下教育部的解釋，它有3種涵義：合於正義的，比如義舉、義民；用來周濟公眾的地方，如義莊、義舍；第三種滿特別的，我們也常見，它是假的，有其名而非真的。怎麼會這樣？它舉例，如義父、義子、義肢，對吧？好像教育部的解釋沒有錯。"],["李部長遠：是一種義務，不是血緣關係。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，但是它是說假的、有其名而非真的。我想請部長能夠再另外跟我分享一下，什麼是「遺址」？"],["李部長遠：就是過去留下來的，但是值得保存的地方。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您解釋得非常正確，其實歷史值得讓我們去做探究。剛剛范雲委員也有討論、也有講到，其實歷史除了值得我們去做探究之外，當然，多加一些溝通、討論是有必要性的。所以我們要講，對於不義遺址保存條例草案，我們支持，怎麼會不支持？只是內容以及我們要界定的時間軸，希望能夠更加地明確。","第二個，我就先暫時以院版的草案來說，不義遺址要如何保存活化、怎麼做、怎麼修復，又要如何呈現不義遺址的教育意義，是我們今天在教育及文化委員會要討論到的重點。這些遺址的保護都是希望未來能夠給孩子有一些教育的意義，可以認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，那你有聽過清德宗嗎？顧名思義是清朝的德宗皇帝，部長知道是誰嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不知道，我對清朝知道的不多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不太知道，沒關係，我們分享一下，是光緒皇帝。我現在要談到的是現代版的清德宗，請問部長知道是誰嗎？"],["李部長遠：不知道欸。"],["羅委員廷瑋：輿論認為現在的賴清德總統宛如讓臺灣生活在威權統治之下，所以網路輿論稱他為清德宗，我在引述的是網路輿論。我想要跟你分享的是，我們看到批踢踢，很多人覺得臺灣現在跟威權時代體制沒有兩樣，如同草案第一條所稱的反省威權統治時期。我具體也建議一下部長，我們先看一下這個案例：賴清德拆南鐵「逼90歲老人2小時搬家」，自救會長怒。我想這些狀況以及南鐵遷移的時候所發生的相關新聞畫面歷歷在目，這算不算是不義？當然，它不是遺址，可是它改成不義場域……"],["李部長遠：我可以回答，假如我知道的話，南鐵當初是中央通過，由地方來執行，就是這樣這麼簡單的概念，可是大家要把這個錯誤的地方……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那我想問你，你說中央通過，地方可以不去執行嗎？"],["李部長遠：中央通過，地方在時間內一定要執行，所以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當時他面對的態度，新聞畫面都有，如果你要全部推給馬維拉，我想他既然認為這是中央的決策，他可以不去執行，現在他看到了，他還是實際地去執行，面對民眾的陳情、面對民眾的血淚，他當時的回應呢？今天我們不在這邊具體地去闡述過程，但我要講的是，我們現在認定的草案第三條有關威權統治時期是不是也應該補上從中華民國113年5月20日至今？因為時間點有包含現在，所以不義遺址這個詞就不適用，我們用不義場域、不義現在的地址，我們都可以用這樣子相關的文字去做闡述。但是對於不義遺址，我要講的是，我們今天不是要針對賴總統，我們今天是想要透過這些簡單的案例，讓大家能夠清楚地明瞭不義遺址是誰的不義，是全民的不義、是歷史所探究的不義嗎？","剛剛是先引言。我們之前公布院版草案的時候，就有媒體來問我對不義遺址保存條例的看法，我的態度很明確，就是我認為歷史好的、壞的全部都要被記下，這句話你可以認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：當然要認同。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以吧？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：或許你沒辦法認同剛剛我所引述的網路新聞、網路輿論，但是歷史應該要整體地全部做保留，讓孩子能夠知道，讓教育意義能夠藉由歷史這個照妖鏡看到全面，對嗎？"],["李部長遠：歷史的存在就是讓我們看到未來的借鏡，沒有歷史的話，我們不知道我們應該要怎麼往前、要怎麼走，所有歷史曾經發生過的悲劇，希望將來不要發生。就像您剛才提到的，曾經發生過刑求、強逼口供、槍決的事情，會發生在臺灣民主時代的這一刻嗎？不會！會因為思想，把你逮捕、刑求、槍決嗎？不會！那就是因為臺灣已經走到了這一刻自由民主的時代，它不會倒回去，您說對嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：我支持，所以我剛剛開宗明義就講，不義遺址保存條例草案我們支持啊！但是我們希望在這個草案裡面所界定的時間軸應該要更加明確。我簡單就問你，請問一下，你有看過賽德克．巴萊嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不但看過，我還支持過它。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝你支持，我們都支持，這是非常好的一部國片，但裡面所闡述的內容呢？我們就講鄭成功就好了，鄭成功對於追隨他移民來到這邊的難民，他是超級英雄，到現在臺灣四處可見延平郡王祠、延平北路、延平中學等名稱；但當鄭成功降臨在臺灣這片土地的時候，對於當時所居住的原住民，卻可能是毀天滅地的災禍。如果歷史背景是在這樣的情境當中，那麼誰是義，誰是不義？現在我們看到賽德克．巴萊，您說您支持，裡面的內容不需要我再闡述，為什麼這些賽德克．巴萊人，他們最後群起要去反對，甚至做出這些舉動？當中誰是義，誰是不義？這也是我們今天希望能夠探討，我們在界定不義遺址保存時，現在要怎麼去界定它的時間軸，你剛剛說有所謂的槍決、有所謂的迫害人權，當時也有啊！可是你的不義遺址保存條例這個草案，我們卻沒有看到你把它納入，難道它就可以被忘記？它就可以不用保存？它就可以不用讓我們的孩子在未來知道嗎？所以今天站在這裡的所有委員，還是再一次強調，意識形態是你所說的，我們現在要的是更完善的不義遺址保存條例的草案，讓全民能夠看到完整的歷史，這樣子我的態度很明顯，部長，您怎麼看？"],["李部長遠：我忽然覺得今天所有討論都非常好，因為至少國民黨委員都加入討論，對不義遺址提出新的看法，我個人覺得非常好，我覺得所有事情經過這個過程，會讓大家看得更清楚歷史，我覺得是一件好事，我們一起來討論，未來我希望列入這個法案，大家一點一點討論好嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你可以認同時間軸可以再做調整，是嗎？"],["李部長遠：我沒辦法決定一切，我想送去那個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，我沒有讓你決定，我說，你可不可以認同我剛剛所提到的賽德克．巴萊也是啊！你可不可以在這個草案當中給予一些意見，你能夠認同界定時間軸的部分能夠再拉，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：大家一起討論吧！"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你認不認同嘛？"],["李部長遠：我不管認不認同，我覺得所有的討論過程都是重新再把臺灣所發生過的所有悲劇再講一遍，提醒我們不要再重蹈覆轍，而且這些悲劇的時代都是非常好的藝術作品，譬如二二八的電影就是悲情城市、白色恐怖的電影就是牯嶺街少年殺人事件，這一次韓國得到諾貝爾獎的作家韓江，他的作品就有光州事件；換句話說，當我們面對所有曾經發生過的悲劇，它反而是一個最深層的故事。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我非常認同，所以所有的悲劇都應該一起納入，而不是你所界定原本這個草案中的悲劇的時間軸。所以最後我要講，文化政策的制定過程需不需要考慮到多元性？需不需要考慮到包容性？我想請部長會後能夠繼續在這個部分上繼續探究，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們要處理臨時提案，臨時提案提案人林宜瑾、范雲，連署人是陳秀寳，我們請議事人員先宣讀。","案由：","不義遺址標示系統上路至今，已對台灣幾處不義遺址先行完成標示，包含行政院、白色恐怖景美紀念園區、台南湯德章紀念公園、白色恐怖綠島紀念園區新生訓導處及綠島感訓監獄、高雄市立歷史博物館（原高雄市政府）等處。","除前段提及之地點外，根據促進會任務總結報告，該會亦已針對全台多處不義遺址進行測繪、盤點與初步認定，有待「不義遺址標示系統」掛牌標示。鑑於歷史教育之重要性，以喚起社會大眾對於人權、白色恐怖歷史及轉型正義的關注，帶動更多的省思與討論。文化部應盡速進行「不義遺址標示系統」之賡續標示作業，並於一個月內提出將如何進行標示之作業期程規劃。","提案人：林宜瑾　　范　雲　　吳沛憶","連署人：陳培瑜　　陳秀寳"],["主席：請問提案委員林宜瑾委員有沒有要補充說明或意見？"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主席。我是認為不義遺址的標示系統應該是持續辦理的一個事項，就如同我們陳文成博士紀念碑有紀念碑解說一樣，它清楚的解說這個地方發生什麼人權迫害，我覺得這也是一個非常好的人權教育。所以我覺得從我手上這本書上的不義遺址，二二八跟白色恐怖不義遺址有47處，這裡面有完成標示的就如同我提案說明這幾處而已，所以我覺得我們應該要好好的再做持續性的處理。之前張雅琳委員也有在總質詢提到過，行政院其實可以加入不義遺址的導覽，因為行政院那邊也有一些標示，大家也可以去行政院看，這個都很好，所以我期待文化部這邊再針對這個標示做一些系統的規劃，作業期程也讓我們委員會知道，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝林宜瑾委員。請問其他委員有沒有要補充說明或意見的？（無）沒有。請問部長有無補充說明？"],["李部長遠：沒有，我們就遵照辦理。"],["主席：OK！那就照案通過。如果有委員要補簽的話，請到前面來，議事人員會詳細登載在議事錄。","接著繼續進行質詢。","請鄭天財委員質詢，外委員會4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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我們看這條北南溪提防蓋囉提防在哪裡呢好 我來看一下這條道"},{"start":258.476,"end":286.743,"text":"比較明顯的路那是路吉林路在吉林路的下方那個白線的地方已經有堤防了部長已經有堤防了而且這個堤防啊距離這個溪距離這條溪非常的遠非常非常的遠還有很多很多的農地在那邊"},{"start":287.915,"end":316.61,"text":"我們沒有要求這個農地一定要增編保留地沒有我們只是要求我們自己的祖先留下來的土地而且已經是在堤防堤防內堤防跟部落之間的土地水利署很堅持而且不是未來治理首席不是未來治理,堤防就有了"},{"start":318.018,"end":345.894,"text":"然後又用什麼呢?我們要放消波塊消波塊放的地方已經過多了還要去增那麼一點點的土地所以這個部分另外在瑞穗也是一樣瑞穗、北岡大橋提防部長你看看右邊的提防"},{"start":347.179,"end":371.75,"text":"提防都有了．左邊的土地．也弄了很多要蓋消波塊．放消波．也放了．竟然．我們的土地．全部被劃為．河川七一線之內．有提防喔．組長．部長．這個部分．"},{"start":376.104,"end":376.124,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":405.071,"end":425.364,"text":"那委員你剛剛講的這個部分我們都會貫徹跟履行那至於你剛剛所提兩個個案我們也知道氣候變遷對於河道的這個治理的這個需求的部分我們不需要以河增地但我們希望建立一個國土的韌性那完成治理你光看這個"},{"start":426.879,"end":452.796,"text":"委員,我們台灣的河川平常沒有水喔,大雨來的時候,整個河川裡面都是水所以你現在看到北邊這個地方,有一些農耕的這個地方,在大雨來的時候,它可能是會...我完全不認同,我們的土地變成河流也沒有關係沒有關係啊,沒有關係啊,我們不會要求補償,也沒有規定要補償啊,不會"},{"start":454.878,"end":455.619,"text":"你上次講說這個今年年底以前"},{"start":483.188,"end":483.528,"text":"主席"},{"start":499.64,"end":520.026,"text":"委員,颱風這已經來了,我們需要相關的防洪設施,災害的安全,讓民眾在一個減災的社會可以安居樂業,這是我們努力的目標。主席,自己看這個圖,你放消波塊已經有提防了。"},{"start":522.822,"end":542.755,"text":"這個我們在全國各地都有一樣的一個做法。為什麼一定要在我們原住民已經在使用的土地裡面來放呢?這個沒有針對性,這是依照防救災的這個需求他去劃定的。"},{"start":546.65,"end":552.742,"text":"報告委員,我想這一部分我們帶回去再來討論,這是事實,所以我想我們可以檢討,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra 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邀請部長請何部長"},{"start":16.029,"end":40.828,"text":"我們來針對於缺工的問題來討論因為我們看到未來9年那麼我們所迎來的是378萬人的這個退休那也是史上到目前為止最大的退休潮的逼近那又加上少子化那導致我們整個在製造交通營建服務跟醫療等等的各行業普遍的來缺工"},{"start":41.448,"end":61.525,"text":"尤其特別是3K所謂的3K是什麼危險辛苦骯髒這3K的辛苦特定製造製成的產業缺工特別特別的嚴重那所以呢我們又看到你的統計在11年來15到29歲的青年勞動力人口是減少了16萬人而國防會推估我們臺灣勞動力人口缺口會在2030年會達到"},{"start":70.872,"end":89.25,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下他不僅會影響到我們整個的就業市場影響到經濟的一個衝擊所以本期要在這邊請教部長賴清德總統在2017年的時候他擔任行政院長有一句口號讓我很很撼動他曾經提出了流財攬財還有什麼"},{"start":93.133,"end":115.724,"text":"預財這三個財那如果這三項的政策方向那如果剛剛用數字會講話告訴我們等於他的流覽域都是改變成一個字叫做山都越來越低了越來越低了所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教像這樣子的情況你要怎麼因應這個市場的挑戰請做說明"},{"start":117.143,"end":136.009,"text":"市委員我想今天的報告案我們也呈現出說在這裡面其實最缺的是中階技術人力對那怎麼辦你怎麼因應委員我們現在在本土的中階技術人才培育上面也希望能夠強化學訓用的跟教育部經濟部一起來整合這三方的這樣子的"},{"start":140.871,"end":142.152,"text":"你剛才所做的回答我相信如果以目前你現在所做的書面資料跟回答"},{"start":158.504,"end":175.897,"text":"你的答案還是一樣一個字就是山越來越低越來越低他不是流他不是藍他不是玉所以我希望你還是針對目前我們所面臨到的這一切困境你再去做一個精準的一個盤點到底要怎麼做"},{"start":176.417,"end":193.574,"text":"好不好?到底要怎麼做?因為你剛剛針對本土的我們目前就是這樣做數字就是不好看那你剛剛要提到的一個外籍的部分我繼續來跟你討論因為我緊張這一個外籍的你如果所有的政策都依照這樣子那我們台灣的國力要怎麼辦?"},{"start":194.355,"end":212.297,"text":"待會我們繼續來討論那所以我用你實質目前在做的我們在去年因應旅宿還有餐飲這都最健康的在這樣的情況之下你推出了義後改善缺工擴大就業方案對不對你推出了從勞工端"},{"start":212.998,"end":240.575,"text":"及顧祖端來找手協助受疫情衝擊的造成以後缺工的這個產業來捕食人力喔捕食人力到目前為止到今年6月底你協助了2900人來就業那所以本期要在這邊請教你勞動部對這個數字你滿意嗎這當然是偏低偏低嗎那為什麼會偏低是政策錯誤還是執行無力"},{"start":241.415,"end":268.517,"text":"還是社會面相不夠還是怎麼樣因為既然連你自己推出的政策你都認為是偏低那我要再繼續跟你討論因為你願意承認你這個政策的執行率是不到位的所以在這樣的情況之下你要如何的來提高就業率你針對於缺工你還有什麼方案你現在所提出在做的你認為是偏低那怎麼辦專案來做到偏低那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":269.238,"end":295.393,"text":"我原理是只針對旅宿餐館﹖對也是因為這樣所以我們又擴大開放的橋外生﹖可以來從事旅宿業的中階工作請你再精準方案好不好你答案還是下一題本席要跟你討論的請你再就針對剛剛本席所提出你專案的在福島只有2900人是偏低的請你再去精準方案這個部分就是﹖如果你的政策方案是不對檔的"},{"start":297.475,"end":316.494,"text":"是不正確的那你應該去從內部去討論而不是都只有給我一個答案我們從外籍工因為你第一個提問我本席第一個提問跟第二個提問你都是給我回答這個所以我會中斷你的回答請你去精準精準你的方案告訴本席好不好"},{"start":320.276,"end":336.126,"text":"第3個我實質跟你討論從2024年9月份我們的失聯外籍移工的部分來台的部分已經失聯的80萬人那你比去年同期你增加了5萬人也是歷史新高近7年來最高"},{"start":337.006,"end":362.533,"text":"那在這樣的情況下你告訴我開放了資深移工轉任中階技術人力你開放了橋外剛才你回答橋外生轉任中階人力的業別國際勞動力勢必你不斷的不斷的在增加所以包括現在經濟部長告訴我們你勞動部最近要持續放寬包括了印度的移工對不對"},{"start":363.513,"end":381.999,"text":"所以換句話說本席告訴你如果依照你目前的政策你到2028年會突破多少百萬移工大關會突破百萬移工是不是有可能所以我們的方向看法是一致的所以本席要請教依照救福法的規定"},{"start":383.379,"end":397.81,"text":"蘭嶺移工每一年可以引進多少的總人數這個是舊法裡面規定依照外籍勞工聘僱警戒指標的訂定到今天為止你還沒有訂所以你就開了一個大口"},{"start":398.51,"end":427.546,"text":"大管道在這裡所以呢勞動部你是不是要怎麼樣解決我們的移工的問題在你必須要有外籍移工進來的時候你的相關法律的一個人數跟你要怎麼樣去調整這是目前我們必須要做的請做說明我們有定警戒指標了那我也一直在重申警戒指標要什麼時候定出來不能用開放移工來解決啦"},{"start":428.066,"end":435.031,"text":"那你竟然結論給我回答這個我本期問你的第一題跟第二題你都是運用外籍移工的對不對"},{"start":439.097,"end":464.271,"text":"不是好好的問題 而且這個是社會面向的問題因為你這個如果沒有管抗也會影響到本級的勞工當然 由本級的勞工 從我們的百天工、幫忙工到目前為止他要兩個禮拜做的事情 他現在可能五天就做好因為逃跑的外籍移工全部加入 在這樣的情況你都清楚這些事情你為什麼沒有方法去研讀"},{"start":465.612,"end":486.173,"text":"那怎麼辦本期所說的社會面向你都說是對那你應該要好好的應對你所認識的台灣目前的困境去做調整好不好你怎麼去做調整多久時間告訴我方案好我們一個月內給委員一個月內好不好因為數字真的很難看好不好一個月內加油好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時26分）謝謝主席！楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們來針對契約工的問題討論，因為我們看到未來9年迎來的是378萬人的退休，也是到目前為止史上最大退休潮的逼近，又加上少子化，導致我們整個在製造、交通、營建、服務跟醫療等等各行業普遍的缺工，特別是「3K」，所謂的「3K」是什麼？是指危險、辛苦、骯髒俗稱「3K」的辛苦特定製程產業，缺工得特別嚴重。根據勞動部的統計，這10年來，15到29歲的青年勞動力人口減少了16萬人，而國發會推估我們臺灣勞動力人口缺口會在2030年達到40萬人，在這樣的一個情況之下，它不僅會影響到我們整個的就業市場，也影響到經濟造成衝擊。所以本席要在這邊請教部長，賴清德總統在2017年擔任行政院長時有一句口號讓我很撼動，他曾經提出了「留才、攬才、育才」這三個才的政策方向，如果數字會講話，剛剛的數字就告訴我們他的「留、攬、育」都變成一個字，就是「刪」，都愈來愈低了。本席要請教的是，像這樣子的情況，你要怎麼因應市場的挑戰？請做說明。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想在今天的報告中我們也呈現出在這裡面其實最缺的是中階技術人力……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那怎麼辦？你怎麼因應？"],["何部長佩珊：在本土的中階技術人才培育上面，我們現在也希望能夠強化學訓用，跟教育部、經濟部一起來整合這三方，解決學用落差以及產業的需求，這是本土的部分。那引進外籍的中階人才……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：外籍部分我們待會兒討論，聽到部長剛剛所做的回答，我相信如果以目前你所做的書面資料跟回答，你的答案還是一樣一個字，就是「刪」，愈來愈低，愈來愈低！它不是留，它不是攬，它不是育，所以我希望你還是針對目前我們所面臨到的這些困境再去做一個精準的盤點，到底要怎麼做，好不好？你剛剛是針對本土的做說明，我們目前就是這樣做，數字就是不好看。","現在我繼續針對你剛剛要提到的外籍部分來跟你討論，因為我很緊張，這個外籍的部分，如果所有的政策都依照這樣子，那我們臺灣的國力要怎麼辦？待會兒我們繼續來討論。我以你目前實質在做的來看，去年為因應旅宿還有餐飲，這些都是最缺工的，在這樣的情況之下，你推出了「疫後改善缺工擴大就業方案」，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從勞工端及僱主端來著手協助受疫情衝擊造成疫後缺工的產業，以補實人力，到今年6月底為止，協助了2,900人就業，本席要請教部長，勞動部對這個數字滿意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這當然是偏低。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：偏低嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼會偏低？是政策錯誤還是執行無力？還是社會面向「無救」抑或有其他什麼原因？竟然連你自己推出的政策你都認為是偏低的，因為你願意承認你這個政策的執行率是不到位的，那我要再繼續跟你討論，在這樣的情況之下，你要如何提高就業率？針對於缺工，你還有什麼方案？你認為現在所提出的、在做的是偏低的，那怎麼辦？專案來做都偏低，那要怎麼辦呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員你是指針對旅宿餐飲？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，請做說明。"],["何部長佩珊：也是因為這樣，所以我們又擴大開放僑外生可以來從事旅宿業的中階工作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你再精準方案好不好？你的答案是下一題本席要跟你討論的，請你再針對剛剛本席所提，你說專案輔導的部分只有2,900人是偏低的，那就請你再去精準方案，如果你的政策方案是不對檔的、是不正確的，那你應該從內部去討論，而不是都只給我同一個答案──我們從外籍工著手，因為你對本席第一個提問跟第二個提問給的回答都是這個，所以我會中斷你的回答，請你去精準你的方案再告訴本席，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：這個方案我們要檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，要去檢討。第三個我實質跟你討論，從2024年9月份，來臺的失聯外籍移工已經有80萬人，比去年同期增加了5萬人，也是歷史新高，是近7年來最高，在這樣的情況下，你告訴我開放了資深移工轉任中階技術人力，剛剛你又回答說開放僑外生轉任中階人力的業別，你不斷的不斷的在增加國際勞動力，包括現在經濟部長告訴我們，勞動部最近要持續放寬，包括了印度的移工，對不對？換句話說，如果依照你目前的政策，到2028年會突破多少，會突破百萬移工大關，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：有可能。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有可能喔！可見我們的方向看法是一致的，所以本席要請教，依照就業服務法的規定，每一年可以引進多少藍領移工的總人數在就服法裡面是有規定的，外籍勞工聘僱警戒指標到今天為止還沒有訂，所以你就在這裡開了一個大口、大管道。"],["何部長佩珊：有訂。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以勞動部是不是要設法解決我們移工的問題？在必須要引進外籍移工的時候，相關法律中對於人數跟怎麼樣去調整是目前我們必須要做的，請做說明。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們有訂警戒指標了，那我也一直在重申……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：警戒指標什麼時候訂出來的？"],["何部長佩珊：缺工問題不能用開放移工來解決，我也一直重申這一點是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然你的結論是這個，但本席問你的第一題跟第二題你都是說運用外籍移工來補充啊，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：可是委員沒有時間讓我們講，好！好！是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是「好！好！」的問題，而且這個是社會面向的問題，因為如果你對這個沒有管控好，也會影響到本籍的勞工。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，我非常同意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本籍勞工比如綁鋼筋的、做模板這些，原本要兩個禮拜做完的事情現在可能5天就做好了，因為逃跑的外籍移工全部加入。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你都清楚這些事情，為什麼沒有方法去嚴堵？那怎麼辦？本席說的這些社會面向，你都說「是」、「對」，那就應該好好的應對，就你所認知的臺灣目前的困境去做調整，好不好？你怎麼去做調整，多久時間告訴我方案？"],["何部長佩珊：好，我們一個月內給委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月內，好不好？因為數字真的很難看。一個月內！加油！"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","今天沒有臨時提案，所以我們繼續發言，接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade803d2fadec0999b2325639a1896b059d94934db31926c300b919a22b82dabb035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:22:00 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﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":60.968,"end":74.557,"text":"大概前一段時間我到一個大學邀請我因為是關心性別平等的超過100個學生演講那我一開始剛好講到林宜瑾寫案跟林義雄先生發現學生表情茫然我問一下現場超過100個學生有沒有人知道有沒有聽過林義雄"},{"start":86.215,"end":107.023,"text":"結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎?您猜100個人中會有幾個人聽過林義雄?我覺得沒有人聽過那部長非常的了解現在學生對歷史知道的很有限沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄我再問說有聽過林宜瑾寫案的舉手部長您猜有幾個人舉手?"},{"start":109.504,"end":126.07,"text":"很幸運的有三個人舉手問他說他們知不知道林宜瑾寫案是什麼他們完全不知道那部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上文化才能開花結果直繁葉茂吧"},{"start":128.325,"end":153.974,"text":"部長您同意吧?同意啊所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史這個自由民主沒有辦法守護甚至社會也沒有辦法對話我們對歷史可以有不同的看法但是需要對話對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情嘛以權勢觀點可以有不同那剛剛有講到淡江中學淡水中學它是我小時候常去玩的地方"},{"start":154.654,"end":177.644,"text":"我也是到很現在才知道當年是臺灣第一的新式學校原本叫淡水中學很多年輕人知道他是周杰倫的母校但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳門通他為了保存被軍人殺害的學生的權勢在體育館中他後來再也沒有回來過"},{"start":179.726,"end":201.424,"text":"當年的董事長淡江中學、淡水中學的董事長林茂生有多少師生都是死於二二八到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到這麼重要的歷史我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道我想這個東西就是現在的急迫性如果我們連國家"},{"start":203.456,"end":226.049,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":226.409,"end":252.856,"text":"威安婦紀念館保存條例草案。我上次也有質詢部長說是不是能夠放在擴大為婦女人權館你們願意評估?我想這些都需要努力但是今天我們希望聚焦的不義遺址這個部分是未完成的工作部長應該知道促轉會就是解散之後移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究吧"},{"start":253.676,"end":275.801,"text":"因為這個部分是很清楚的是文化部的所屬的工作那我想現在現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是促進轉型這一委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做如果沒有新法源的話這個審議我想就會發生問題部長同意吧"},{"start":279.816,"end":285.98,"text":"就是沒有法院進行後續的審議跟保存嘛。同意齁。好,那當然我想范迅綠堅委的報告也指出說文化部就是做得還不夠,你們有做一些當然覺得不夠。而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助,譬如說我們現在主席的台南市就有做湯德章等做得比較多的,但是整體文化部給的預算還是太少了。"},{"start":307.732,"end":330.13,"text":"剛才也有委員講主要是在研究的部分其他還是很少那當然就是前部長史哲也說是因為缺乏法源有預算也無法運用所以我想這個部分都告訴我們說法源非常的重要那如果我們回來看一下現在有文資法那可是文資法的話它對於歷史"},{"start":331.271,"end":346.271,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":346.271,"end":374.206,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":374.206,"end":379.528,"text":"他其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞詢問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所。視定古蹟也指定是不義遺址,可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度,剛剛講台南有湯德章的紀念公園,"},{"start":399.076,"end":407.524,"text":"但每一個地方政府可能因為對歷史有點無知所以尊重的程度非常的不一樣這是我們目前面臨的很大的危機剛剛也有委員講到原來的台中和平日報社"},{"start":416.391,"end":430.382,"text":"當時報社中有左翼人士被警招查封清算,記者編輯被逮捕判刑,著名作家楊奎也在其中。可是現在呢,因為地方政府做成不列冊追蹤的決定在案,面臨拆除危機。"},{"start":434.805,"end":444.97,"text":"我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟的態度不一樣,我們會面臨很大的問題。我想像剛剛講到那個牆的問題,那我們到荷蘭就會看安妮的日記的作者,他保存當年的空間是怎麼樣在那裡完成那個日記,然後外面的很多人排隊排了非常久,我記得超過一個小時才能看到。"},{"start":462.779,"end":467.043,"text":"其他國家包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分我相信時間真的不夠了我們絕對需要立法保障否則我們剛剛看到這麼多的就是"},{"start":477.295,"end":498.404,"text":" ﹏﹏ ﹏﹏"},{"start":498.729,"end":499.169,"text":"兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":524.725,"end":537.656,"text":"信念。經過我的詢問,文化部目前有規劃部會分工,有針對潛在遺址先期審議,就是在等待母法通過以訂定相關執法與辦法,所以就是萬事俱備只欠法源,所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動?"},{"start":543.941,"end":567.469,"text":"那對於相關的法條希望能夠更熟悉那怎麼樣能夠做一個文化部長就要對我們全民做一個公共教育保存不義遺址、克不容緩那當然我們落實促展基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好好嗎監察院覺得你們不夠好那今天您有做一個解釋那我們希望能夠克服困難能夠更好好不好"},{"start":570.325,"end":594.245,"text":"我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話我覺得我會努力讓這個法通過但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟好像不能夠面對真正的那個其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法我們只是對範圍界定就是說有不同的意見那是可以討論商量的好嗎部長您自己詮釋的時候我剛剛在我當主席這邊沒有一個委員說"},{"start":595.486,"end":612.466,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":612.759,"end":612.899,"text":"好,謝謝范委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":585,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時22分）謝謝林宜瑾委員，我請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：范委員你好。"],["范委員雲：部長早。我們今天為什麼需要不義遺址保存條例？今天早上有很多對話，當然我想聽起來大家都不反對、支持這個部分，只是對於它的範圍有一些不同的討論。","回來看為什麼我們需要不義遺址保存條例？促轉會在2022年就已經講得很清楚了，為還原歷史真相，讓國家承認過去違反自由民主的憲政秩序，也讓國家肯認事件發生時、地的歷史價值，促進社會對話，最後能夠連結未來的法治規劃。","對我來講，這件事情真的有時間上的急迫性。大概前一段時間，有個大學邀請我就關心性別平等的議題對超過100個學生演講，我一開始剛好講到林宅血案跟林義雄先生，發現學生表情茫然。我問一下現場超過100名學生，有沒有人知道、有沒有人聽過林義雄？結果部長你知道現場的狀況嗎？您猜100個人中有幾個人聽過林義雄？"],["李部長遠：我覺得沒有人聽過。"],["范委員雲：那部長非常地瞭解，現在的學生對歷史知道得很有限，沒有任何人舉手聽過林義雄。接著我再問聽過林宅血案的舉手，部長您猜有幾個人舉手？"],["李部長遠：一樣也是沒人知道。"],["范委員雲：很幸運地，有3個人舉手。問他們知不知道林宅血案是什麼？他們完全不知道。部長您覺得文化應該要生在自由民主的土地上，文化才能開花結果、枝繁葉茂吧？部長您同意吧？"],["李部長遠：同意啊！"],["范委員雲：所以如果不知道我們過去人權被迫害的歷史，這個自由民主沒有辦法守護，甚至社會也沒有辦法對話，我們對歷史可以有不同的看法，但是需要對話，對話需要先知道歷史發生過哪些事情，你詮釋的觀點可以有不同。","剛剛有講到淡江中學，它是我小時候常常去玩的地方，我也是到很現在才知道，當年是臺灣第一的新式學校，原本叫「淡水中學」。很多年輕人知道它是周杰倫的母校，但是幾乎沒有什麼年輕人知道1947年當年的校長陳能通為了保存被軍人殺害的學生全屍在體育館中，他後來再也沒有回來過。然後當年淡水中學的董事長林茂生，有多少師生都死於二二八，到現在家人連遺體都沒有辦法找到。這麼重要的歷史，我相信非常少淡江中學的畢業生知道，這就是我想這個東西現在有急迫性的原因。","如果我們連國家要能夠肯認事件發生的歷史價值，連做民主教育、社會對話都沒有的話，我想很多人權的議題，這個社會是不會關心的。剛剛我一直提醒大家，婦女團體希望證明慰安婦是軍事性奴隸，你可以說軍事性奴隸俗稱「慰安婦」。其實文化部支持慰安婦紀念館的保存，我上次也質詢過部長，是不是能夠擴大為婦女人權館？你們說願意評估。","我想這些都需要努力，但是今天我們希望聚焦在不義遺址這個部分。這個部分是未完成的工作，部長應該知道促轉會解散之後，移交的作業文化部要負責保存不義遺址跟政治檔案研究，因為這個部分很清楚是文化部所屬的工作。現行不義遺址跟潛在遺址的審定乃是經促進轉型正義委員會審定不義遺址作業要點公告的，所以我們現在如果要繼續往前做，如果沒有新法源的話，這個審議就會發生問題，部長同意嗎？"],["李部長遠：同意。"],["范委員雲：就是沒有法源進行後續的審議跟保存嘛！"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：當然我想范巽綠監委的報告也指出，文化部做得還不夠，你們有做一些但他覺得還不夠，而且雖然地方政府有申請維護補助，譬如說現在主席的臺南市就有做湯德章等，這是做得比較多的。但是整體文化部給的預算還是太少，剛剛也有委員講，主要是在研究的部分，其他還是很少。","當然前部長史哲也說，是因為缺乏法源，有預算也無法運用，所以我想這個部分都告訴我們，法源非常地重要，如果我們回來看一下，現在有文資法，可是文資法這邊沒有很明確地定義歷史是什麼，但不義遺址保存條例就很明確地指出「國家為達成鞏固威權統治之目的，所為侵害人權事件之發生地」，是比較有明確定義的。","另外就是時間的範圍，其實這個法也會有更清楚明確的定義，這樣才能執行，而且權限也不一樣。文化資產保存法是讓地方來決定，我們過去也發生地方完全不尊重的情況。我們從地方來講的話，剛剛好像並沒有委員提到這個部分，原來的臺灣臺北監獄圍牆其實就是威權政府時期針對政治事件進行疲勞訊問、酷刑取供、非法執行徒刑之場所；市定古蹟也有指定是不義遺址，可是卻有可能被地方政府破壞。所以你會看到地方政府的態度，剛剛講了臺南有湯德章的紀念公園，可是每一個地方政府可能因為對歷史有點無知，所以尊重的程度非常地不一樣，這是我們目前面臨到很大的危機。","剛剛也有委員講到，原來的臺中和平日報社，當時報社中有左翼人士背景遭查封、清算，記者、編輯被逮捕、判刑，著名作家楊逵也在其中，可是現在因為地方政府作成為不列冊追蹤的決定在案，面臨拆除危機。這就是我們看到地方政府各自對這樣重要的歷史古蹟態度不一，我們會面臨到很大的問題。","像剛剛講到「牆」的問題，我們到荷蘭會去看「安妮的日記」的作者，它保存當年的空間是怎麼在那裡完成那個日記，然後外面有很多人排隊排了非常久，記得超過1個小時才能看到。其他的國家，包含南非跟波蘭都能夠保存這個部分，我相信時間真的不夠了，我們絕對需要立法保障，否則我們剛剛看到這麼多重要的遺跡、人權被傷害的發生地都正在消失跟破壞中。","我還是肯定文化部有做一些努力，包含我們剛剛講的綠島人權館等等，可是這個部分跟整個社會的氛圍，就像我剛剛講的，大學生100個人完全不知道林宅血案。所以空間能夠讓大家對歷史了解，我們要說一個完整的故事，才能讓下一代了解過去國家怎麼傷害人權，也才能夠生出對自由民主守護的信念。","經過我的詢問，文化部目前有規劃部會分工，針對潛在遺址先期審議，就是在等待母法通過，以訂定相關子法與辦法，也就是萬事俱備，只欠法源，所以部長是不是能夠儘速推動？對於相關的法條，希望能夠更熟悉，身為一個文化部長，就要對我們全民做公共教育，保存不義遺址刻不容緩，當然，落實促轉基金的規劃跟執行率也可以更好，好嗎？監察院覺得你們不夠好，今天您有做一個解釋，我們希望能夠克服困難，能夠更好，好不好？"],["李部長遠：我完全贊成范委員剛才講的那番話，我會努力讓這個法通過，但是我覺得最大障礙在於彼此的意識形態作祟，好像不能夠面對真正的……"],["范委員雲：其實剛剛沒有一個委員反對這個法……"],["李部長遠：是嗎？OK，好，我們就……"],["范委員雲：我們只是對範圍界定有不同意見，那是可以討論、商量的，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["范委員雲：部長，您自己詮釋的時候……剛剛我當主席的時候，沒有一個委員說不要這個法，大家都是支持的，只是對於範圍有不同的想法，我想那個是我們可以來商量、討論的。回歸這個法，就是不同的時期要不要再有不同的法，這都是可以討論的，好嗎？也許我們可以用附帶決議或各種方式，部長。"],["李部長遠：OK，好。"],["范委員雲：OK。人權傷痛不能忘，維護歷史記憶是我們這一代很重要的責任，我們要讓下一代都了解自由民主得來不易、威權對人的傷害有多大，只有空間存在，才能說一個完整的故事。謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝范委員。"],["主席：謝謝范委員，部長請回。"],["主席（范委員雲）：請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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會長CPTPP我是這個立法院處理經濟委員會的會長那我長期希望這個CPTPP我們該做的可操作在即的都已經完成了包括相關的法律的修改 完全符合CPTPP的標準那我們希望說 這個能夠在去年加拿大 明年是澳洲"},{"start":83.601,"end":107.004,"text":"相對不是這個中國可以控制的國家所以我們最怕就是中國因素嘛那現在有許多新的國家在加入是共識局啦我想請問一下那個江組長有沒有信心在明年澳洲當輪值主席的時候能夠有機會加入CPTPP您的評估呢"},{"start":108.787,"end":113.592,"text":"報告委員,謝謝委員關心,我們會盡各種努力來對於加入CPP"},{"start":116.277,"end":142.892,"text":"因為報告委員您也很清楚我們要加入CPTPP的話必須要符合這個奧克蘭原則也就是那個原則我也很清楚我只是說你作為一個主管機關你當然還要結合談判辦公室對不對還要結合各外交的管束社會管束因為會議過程很多你要共識覺得何其容易何其困難非常不容易的事情但是我知道你們很努力我想請你說"},{"start":143.892,"end":164.483,"text":"你評估明年加入的可能性高不高委員我們會盡最大的努力因為這個相關的這個入會工作小組的工作那你不能告訴我每年都要盡最大努力盡最大努力是基本的態度嘛但是我覺得你應該讓國會知道目前哪些國家的困難度比較高"},{"start":166.321,"end":193.28,"text":"哪些國家還有哪些問題需要克服的我們一起結合外交部、結合這個經貿談判公司一起來會商來解決嘛是你要跟部長報告目前的進度在哪裡是所以一起努力繼續加油謝謝好謝謝江組長來游署長昨天還沒問江組長請回座那個游署長這個部分啊利樂啊"},{"start":195.131,"end":221.609,"text":"地流跟小水利發電都是再生能源對不對是但是你推動都會發生問題有一些的困難或者法令協調所以以至於我們有很好的這個地流發展的環境對不對但是卻沒有辦法去像其他國家土耳其啦或者印尼他能夠發電這個他的發電規模比雖然比我們晚開始但是他們建設的發電規模比我們快"},{"start":222.642,"end":251.19,"text":"就是國家在主導你出席的投入成本挖掘成本很高對不對所以這部分昨天有跟這個部長提過第6、8令有相關的限制包括土地問題、人民資產問題、懷民問題、經費的問題另外主導性的問題如果由政府主導它難度就降低對不對是這部分我希望說部長是不是折成一個推動小組啊部裡面要有推動小組設定目標你現在目標設定實在太保守"},{"start":252.578,"end":268.799,"text":"所以地熱發電是為未來再生能源重要的支柱之一現在是太陽能還有離岸風電為地熱是很大的潛力但是我們沒有充分發揮我希望有揮動小組定期設定相關的HPI定期去追蹤"},{"start":270.519,"end":281.902,"text":"這個部長可以嗎?可以,我會向我們的這個綠能辦公室啊來要求他要有專人來專責來這個組織然後來督導這個...台電總經理台電王總這個第6發電跟台電有沒有關係?我覺得王總經理非常稱職他也非常專業我請教專業的問題我還要請教他因為已經我們熊總一樣第6部分"},{"start":300.066,"end":305.429,"text":"您覺得未來臺灣有沒有更大的發展空間?另外小水利發力也是很重要,部長"},{"start":325.213,"end":325.593,"text":"另外,環境部省次長．"},{"start":356.789,"end":377.886,"text":"新城市長部長委員好那個SRF目前啊這個當然SRF目前這個補助好像取消了嘛是補助取消了嘛你未來這些管制措施啊那你要怎麼去兼顧這個這個相關的這個去化的要求"},{"start":378.84,"end":386.748,"text":"所以這個部分你這個SRF的政策補助政策有調整那64萬噸可燃的廢棄物這個處理的問題你們有沒有方案"},{"start":390.526,"end":416.31,"text":"跟委員報告現在可燃的部分大部分都進到我們的二次製作的大型的焚化爐那我們就是希望把高熱值的引流出來用SRF做成燃料那燃料必須要符合燃料的標準然後在使用端必須要符合排放標準那這樣的話就可以讓它適所適用那目前以去年來講大概有30萬噸的SRF是被製造跟使用的"},{"start":416.77,"end":433.041,"text":"對那未來有更多的這個投資會進來做製造跟使用這個產業反映一些亂象這些亂象我想就提供給你看製造端的違規現象應用端的惡性循環策略執行跟現實的落差這些反映給你你看怎麼去解決"},{"start":434.162,"end":457.379,"text":"有把這些三大亂象提出一個具體解決方案若時間限制,是不是可以一個順便資料給我?可以,各位簡單報告一下我們在今年的6月到9月之前進行了前面的總體檢那麼也提出了一些改進的措施那在年底之前會訂定一些辦法以及這個排放標準的加嚴那另外替代燃料排碳的減量方法這個目前還沒有公告嗎?對不對?我們是以這一個"},{"start":462.042,"end":462.542,"text":"市長,您覺得國發會的這個意見,您覺得怎麼樣?"},{"start":492.97,"end":496.816,"text":"我們現在主要就是因為要因應這個整個出口的這個市場"},{"start":498.72,"end":522.728,"text":"所以他要成立這個控股公司幫助我們整個產業鏈也就是說現在比較沒有競爭力的這個產業鏈可以透過這個供應鏈的關係就產業嘛對對用水五金啊是不是水五金我家隊的這個意思對我知道水五金、車用電子包括資訊服務另外工具機嘛是先來工具機開始是"},{"start":523.388,"end":532.479,"text":"那國發會要輔導這些公司成立控股公司就是打國家隊那經濟部站在什麼角度去協助呢?我們站在就是幫他這個"},{"start":534.241,"end":538.343,"text":"我先到我先到我言促必行國會議員如果不能遵守發言時間基本的素養不夠"},{"start":564.656,"end":566.842,"text":"那有相關的資料我再跟您請教"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":739,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時22分）謝謝主席。作為召委都很辛苦，要主持會議，對我個人而言，遵守發言的時間是我作為一個國會議員基本的素質，如果連這個時間都沒有辦法掌握好，恐怕對選民的承諾很難能夠具體實現，所以，我一定遵守6加2。"],["主席：好。"],["邱委員志偉：先有請郭部長、江署長，然後游振偉游署長。"],["主席：請郭部長、江署長、游署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：接續昨天還沒有問完的，部長，我是立法院CPTPP促進會的會長，我長期希望，CPTPP我們該做的、可操之在己的都已經完成了，包括相關的法律修改，完全符合CPTPP的標準，我們希望能夠在主席國，今年是加拿大，明年是澳洲，相對不是中國可以控制的國家，我們最怕的就是中國因素嘛，現在有許多新的國家在申請加入，CPTPP是共識決，我想請問一下江署長，有沒有信心在明年澳洲當輪值主席的時候，能夠有機會加入CPTPP，您的評估呢？"],["江署長文若：報告委員，謝謝委員關心，我們會盡各種努力來對於加入CPTPP……"],["邱委員志偉：這跟去年的回答一樣。"],["江署長文若：因為報告委員，您也很清楚，我們要加入CPTPP的話，必須要符合奧克蘭原則，也就是要……"],["邱委員志偉：那個原則我也很清楚，我只是說，你作為一個主管機關，你當然還要結合談判辦公室，對不對？還要結合各外交館處（涉外館處），因為會員國很多，要達到共識決何其困難。"],["江署長文若：是。"],["邱委員志偉：非常不容易的事情，但是我知道你們很努力，我想請你說，你評估明年加入的可能性高不高？"],["江署長文若：委員，我們會盡最大的努力，因為相關入會工作小組的工作，我們也在……"],["邱委員志偉：那你也不能每年都告訴我要盡最大努力，盡最大努力是基本的態度嘛，但是我覺得你應該讓國會知道，目前哪些國家的困難度比較高，哪些國家還有哪些問題需要克服的，我們一起結合外交部，結合經貿談判辦公室，一起來會商解決嘛。"],["江署長文若：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你也要跟部長報告，目前的進度在哪裡。"],["江署長文若：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以一起努力，繼續加油。"],["江署長文若：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝江署長，江署長請回座。游署長，昨天還沒問完，地熱跟小水力發電都是再生能源，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：但是你推動都會發生問題，有一些困難或者法令協調，所以，以致於我們有很好的地熱發展環境，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：但是卻沒有辦法像其他的國家，土耳其或者印尼，雖然比我們晚開始，但是他們建置的發電規模比我們快，就是國家在主導，因為前期的投入成本，挖掘成本很高，對不對？所以這部分，我昨天有跟部長提過，地熱發電有相關的限制，包括土地的問題、原民諮商的問題、環評的問題、經費的問題；另外，主導性的問題，如果由政府主導，它的難度就會降低，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這部分我希望，部長，是不是責成一個推動小組，部裡面要有推動小組設定目標，你現在的目標設定實在太保守，所以地熱發電是我們未來再生能源的重要支柱之一，現在是太陽能，還有離岸風電，我認為地熱有很大的潛力，但是我們沒有充公發揮，我希望有個推動小組，定期設定相關的KPI，定期去追蹤。部長，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。我會向我們的綠能辦公室來要求，要有專人、專責來組織、督導這個部分。"],["邱委員志偉：請教台電王總經理，地熱發電跟台電有沒有關係？我覺得王總經理非常稱職，他也非常專業，專業的問題我要請教他，因為這部分你最專業。地熱部分，您覺得未來臺灣有沒有更大的發展空間？"],["王總經理耀庭：地熱的部分分為兩個區塊，一個是鑽探的部分，我們是不是能夠鑽到足夠的熱源；第二個是我的電能不能送得出來……"],["邱委員志偉：對。"],["王總經理耀庭：在電送得出來送不出來這部分，台電會全力支持，至於地熱挖掘這部分，我們台電也有幾口井正在準備要挖當中。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，小水力發電也是很重要，部長，這個部分可以協調能源署跟台電來協助，小水力發電也碰到類似的困境，有各部會的問題，你們設定的目標也太過保守，我希望也一樣成立推動小組……"],["郭部長智輝：是，我會回去改革我們的綠能辦公室，要求把裡面的structure全部都改掉。"],["邱委員志偉：好，那地熱跟小水力發電，未來都要成立專責的辦公室去推動。","另外，請環境部沈次長，還有部長請留步。"],["主席：請沈次長。"],["沈次長志修：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：沈次長，關於SRF，當然SRF目前的補助好像取消了嘛？"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["邱委員志偉：補助取消了嘛。未來你這些管制措施要怎麼去兼顧相關的去化的要求，所以這個部分，SRF的補助政策有調整，那64萬噸可燃廢棄物的處理問題，你們有沒有方案？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，現在可燃的部分大部分都進到我們24座的大型焚化爐，我們就是希望把高熱值的引流出來，用SRF做成燃料，那燃料必須要符合燃料的標準，然後在使用端必須要符合排放的標準，這樣的話，就可以讓它適所適用。目前以去年來講，大概有30萬噸的SRF是被製造跟使用的，未來有更多的投資會進來做製造跟使用。"],["邱委員志偉：這個產業反映出一些亂象，這些亂象我就提供給你看，包括製造端的違規現象，應用端的惡性循環，策略執行跟現實的落差，這些我反映給你……"],["沈次長志修：是，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：看要怎麼去解決，就這三大亂象提出一個具體的解決方案。如果時間限制，是不是可以給我一個書面資料？"],["沈次長志修：可以。我跟委員簡單報告一下，我們在今年的6月到9月之間進行了全面的總體檢，也提出了一些改進的措施，在年底之前也會訂定一些辦法，以及排放標準的加嚴。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，替代燃料排碳的減量方法，目前還沒有公告，對不對？"],["沈次長志修：我們是以SRF裡面可能會使用到木材，可能會使用……"],["邱委員志偉：什麼時候可以公告？"],["沈次長志修：是，我們有一個版本，我們會把它公告出來。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你在管制SRF的同時，你的替代燃煤的政策目標不應該偏廢。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個部分環境部跟經濟部要一起努力。"],["沈次長志修：是，減少煤炭的使用，減少排碳。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝次長。"],["沈次長志修：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，國發會要輔導成立一個控股公司，部長，國發會這個意見，您覺得怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在主要就是因為要因應整個出口的市場，所以它要成立這個控股公司，幫助我們整個產業鏈，也就是說，現在比較沒有競爭力的產業鏈可以透過這個供應鏈的關係……"],["邱委員志偉：就是傳統產業嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對，這種產業……"],["邱委員志偉：是不是水五金？"],["郭部長智輝：國家隊的這個意思。"],["邱委員志偉：對，我知道，水五金、車用電子，包括資訊服務，另外就是工具機嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：先從工具機開始。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：國發會要輔導這些公司成立控股公司，就是組國家隊，那經濟部站在什麼角度去協助呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們就是幫它、拉抬它、讓它可以高值化，我們儘量在這個產業鏈上面來幫它，第一個是提升它的技術；第二個，我們有經濟組可以透過外貿協會來……"],["邱委員志偉：我的時間到了，我言出必行啦！國會議員如果不能遵守發言時間，就是基本的素養不夠。那有相關的資料，我再跟你請教。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["主席：請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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{"start":132.614,"end":160.952,"text":"只被一個僱主綁住他所有的時間他不能去做現在的兼差可能不一樣像現在的副編導都很流行你覺得這個觀念是不是有些不一樣了是當然這個確實清新的勞動的彈性形態這個是現在年輕人而且勞動部現在推銀髮族中高齡就業促進也希望能夠多製造一些部分工時的職缺讓這些中高齡者來參與對不對是不是這樣所以我們說嘛"},{"start":162.793,"end":189.547,"text":"產業是不是一定要全職勞工勞動部要做一個思考就是要問我們勞工需要什麼樣的職缺勞工有的需要全職的職缺有的需要他喜歡部分工時的職缺是不是這樣是就我們來勞動部與其問老闆說你需要全職工嗎我們是否反過來問勞工你希望什麼樣的彈性的工作方式你同不同意"},{"start":189.847,"end":213.247,"text":"同意同意,因為我們在鍾佳濱的這個就業途徑上就是採用這個方式所以其實不只鍾佳濱啊,很多的年輕的不同世代勞動力他也有,他可能一天他寧可把8小時用來兼三份差他不想幫一個老闆做8個小時的工,你覺得有沒有可能?有可能嘛,所以現在的整個工作的概念是認為說過去勞工必要有一個雇主"},{"start":214.068,"end":214.368,"text":"其實這是一個趨勢啦"},{"start":239.989,"end":267.036,"text":"好 所以這是個趨勢您說對了所以因為這樣的趨勢我們應該先做一個調查瞭解現在勞動力勞工他需求的方向然後呢我們再回過來看產業的需求我前不久在交通部問過客運業啊他們現在缺司機願意做全天8小時的全職的駕駛呢都是中高齡所以不得不交通部延長到68歲那新的年輕的人呢他不想要一天綁8小時"},{"start":268.456,"end":291.185,"text":"因此他們就說那我們在尖峰時間我們會顧那些已經退休的回來做兩個小時或者年輕人他就來做兩個小時你支持產業這樣的做法嗎就是他用這個方式來應付他尖峰時間客運業他的尖峰時間需要讓很大但是他為了尖峰時間的需求他僱用一堆人不見得顧得足"},{"start":292.509,"end":315.099,"text":"所以我問一下客運業的聘僱臨時人力有沒有法令上的限制我記得那時候你好像告訴我說沒有沒有沒有很好所以我們就要思考那如果沒有法令上的限制那為什麼僱主跟勞工他們沒有辦法去媒合達成說我想打工的就來打工僱主說你想打工的我就有這個監察的工作給你我們來看一下下一個"},{"start":316.525,"end":333.747,"text":"農業需要什麼樣的勞動力?現在農業缺工對不對?有季節性的缺工有常態性的缺工但是呢我們看到一個新聞啊他說你請外籍移工啊寫來做阿公啊為什麼?我農忙的時候我請了外籍移工但是我農協的時候他在做阿公啊你有沒有了解到這個情況?"},{"start":334.741,"end":352.746,"text":"我知道所以為什麼農業部門會有這個情況呢因為農業生產跟工業生產不同工業生產機器一開24小時你全天一週七天一個月30天一年360天你要隨時都可以農業要看老天爺啊是"},{"start":353.706,"end":354.347,"text":"你覺得可不可以"},{"start":376.601,"end":378.642,"text":"有什麼法令的限制我這樣講"},{"start":397.347,"end":414.214,"text":"其實農閒上學農忙下田這裡面就是需要教育部農業部跟勞動部共同來設計不然的話你知道現在農裡面雇用的得到的額外補充勞動力都是廠工都是移工"},{"start":415.094,"end":436.87,"text":"他們是8點上班5點下班中間還出來4點就來打工然後8點來打工這個對外籍移工賺錢好但是對他的身體勞動權不好所以我們認為與其用外籍勞工不如用外籍的什麼農學工過去我們再往下看有一種叫教育部的做法你看透過PD勞動力我們客運車的業者可以做這樣的事情那但是他會缺乏什麼保障"},{"start":437.967,"end":465.535,"text":"他會缺乏他可能職災的保障有沒有啊他的一個退休準備的保障有沒有啊這個勞動部要去幫忙享受啊包括你現在在支持的外送平台很多外送平台他不想要跟僱主成為全職的勞僱關係但他也不能接受這個承攬關係僱主完全對他沒有義務那有沒有可能在這兩者之間我們找出一個類勞工的方式來保障這些兼職人員部分工時人員他跟僱主之間的關係而且他們彼此的權益可以這樣嗎"},{"start":466.752,"end":496.121,"text":"我們來研究好嗎好那最後呢我要告訴你來你要看往下往前跳最後一個你好往前往前不是學校的學工學校的學助往下一頁這個就是教育部那時候出來的大概在8年前那些大學的研究生他有領錢所以呢學校就請他工作研究室的助理會幫學校做行政工作後來教育部呢有研究生反映啊我領你6000領你8000我是研究生碩博生結果呢我的勞動權利在哪裡"},{"start":497.141,"end":515.38,"text":"勞動部那時候出面了就有一個專科以上學校兼任助理勞動權益保障的指導原則這是勞動部出面的有沒有還沒印象在座的官員有嘛對不對所以那時候分成什麼分成兩種一種叫學習型的一種叫行政型的學習型的他的參與是基於學習的目的"},{"start":516.08,"end":528.531,"text":"但是如果是行政型的不是學習型的他就比較強調他勞動的部分給予他保障學校對這兩種型的助理學生助理是給予不同的條件有沒有印象"},{"start":530.486,"end":531.146,"text":"最後一題"},{"start":557.901,"end":557.921,"text":"鍾佳濱"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":802,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時17分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。今天我們大家都關心缺工的問題，都說全職的缺工，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一個，部長你知道嗎，我們不只是勞碌命，而且有一個部分要特別跟你講，我們的部分工時勞動參與比率很低，請問部長，對於全職參與勞動跟部分工時參與勞動，你認為有什麼差別？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，臺灣所謂總工時長，確實是因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有問總工時長，我講部分工時。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們部分工時參與率是比較低的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你覺得這是雇主不願意給全職工作，還是勞工不想做全職的工作？"],["何部長佩珊：不，我們部分工時的參與率低其實是正面的，因為這其實等於是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：等等，這句話我有一個保留，我先問你，我沒有說哪個正面或負面，我說部分工時參與率低是因為雇主不願意提供全職工作，還是勞工不想做全職工作？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，部分工時參與率低是意味著雇主……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我說部分工時的職缺少，是老闆不想僱全職，還是員工不想做全職？我都花了30秒了，這樣聽懂了？好，我來講啦，我再講的更直白一點啦，以前的人都結婚，但是現在結婚率下降，為什麼，因為同居就好了，先進國家都這樣子，因為結婚就有彼此的權利義務，而同居有同居的幸福，但是可能彼此沒有約束，我用這個方式來說明，過去的勞工希望跟雇主有一個從一而終，比如日本的永聘制，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：終身僱用制，但是現在好像勞工對於只被一個雇主綁住他所有的時間，他不能去做其他兼差，可能有不一樣的想法，像現在foodpanda都很流行，你覺得這個觀念是不是有些不一樣了？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然，確實新興的勞動彈性型態是現在年輕人他們比較願意的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且勞動部現在推銀髮族、中高齡就業促進，也希望能夠多製造一些部分工時的職缺，讓這些中高齡者來參與，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們說嘛，產業是不是一定要全職勞工，勞動部要做一個思考，就是要問我們勞工需要什麼樣的職缺，勞工有的需要全職的職缺，有的喜歡部分工時的職缺，是不是這樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們勞動部與其問老闆說你需要全職工，是否可反過來問勞工你希望什麼樣的彈性工作方式？你同不同意？"],["何部長佩珊：同意，同意，因為我們在中高齡的就業促進上就是採用這個方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實不止是中高齡，很多年輕的、不同世代的勞動力，他可能一天寧可把8小時用來兼三份差也不想幫一個老闆做8個小時的工，你覺得有沒有可能？有可能嘛！所以現在整個的工作概念是不一樣的，過去認為勞工必須要有一個雇主僱用他整天的時間，僱用他一輩子，而且雇主要對勞工有一定的義務跟保障，勞工也喜歡有這樣穩定的鐵飯碗，這是過去的概念。現在勞工可能會說雇主綁住他全部的時間，但我要想辦法去休息，我要休假，我要自由，我不要有這樣固定的勞雇關係來綁住我，你覺得有沒有這個可能？"],["何部長佩珊：有，其實這是一個趨勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是一個趨勢，您說對了，所以因為這樣的趨勢，我們應該先做一個調查，瞭解現在勞動力勞工需求的方向，然後我們再回過頭來看產業的需求。我前不久問過交通部，客運業現在缺司機，願意全天做8小時的全職駕駛都是中高齡者，所以交通部不得不延長到68歲，新進的、年輕的人不想要一天綁8小時，因此他們就說我們可不可以在尖峰時間僱用那些已經退休的人回來做兩個小時，或者是年輕人就只來做兩個小時，你支持產業這樣的作法嗎？客運業在尖峰時間的人力需要量很大，但為了尖峰時間的需求就僱用一堆人不見得僱得足，所以我問一下，客運業的聘僱臨時人力有沒有法令上的限制？我記得那時候你好像告訴我說沒有。"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，沒有限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，很好。所以我們就要思考，如果沒有法令上的限制，那為什麼雇主跟勞工沒有辦法媒合達成說想打工的就來打工，雇主說你想打工我就有這個兼差的工作給你？下一個，我們來看一下農業需要什麼樣的勞動力，現在農業缺工對不對？有季節性的缺工，有常態性的缺工，但是我們看到一個新聞，說是請外籍移工是來當阿公啊！為什麼？農忙的時候我請了外籍移工，但是農閒的時候他在當阿公啊！你有沒有了解到這個情況？"],["何部長佩珊：我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼農業部門會有這個情況呢？是因為農業生產跟工業生產不同，工業生產機器一開就是24小時全天，一週7天、一個月30天、一年360天，要隨時都可以上工，農業要看老天爺啊！氣候限制你不能下田嘛！所以過去一直有一個概念，就是我們現在的新南向國家，你們不是同意讓一些有技術、來學習技術的學生可以去當副理、佐理嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你覺得同樣來臺灣學習農業，他可不可以農閒上學、農忙下田？你覺得可不可以？"],["何部長佩珊：去工讀？"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["何部長佩珊：農校啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，他來念農校嘛！對不對？他可以農閒的時候就上學，因為他們課程的安排很有彈性嘛！農忙的時候大家下田，不只是體驗、可以賺錢，還可以實際的去做中學，你同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：同意，同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下這有什麼法令的限制，其實農閒上學、農忙下田這裡面就需要教育部、農業部跟勞動部共同來設計，不然的話，你知道現在農業裡面得到的額外補充勞動力都是廠工、移工，他們是8點上班4點下班，4點後就出來打工到8點，這個對外籍移工來說好賺錢，但是對他的身體勞動權不好，所以我們認為與其用外籍勞工不如用外籍的農學工。過去教育部有一種作法，透過PT勞動力，我們客運車的業者可以做這樣的事情，但是這樣會缺乏什麼保障？可能會缺乏職災的保障、退休準備的保障，這個勞動部要去幫忙想，包括你現在支持的外送平台，很多外送平台人員不想跟雇主成為全職的勞雇關係，但他也不能接受雇主完全對他沒有義務的承攬關係，那我們有沒有可能在這兩者之間找出一個類勞工的方式，來保障這些兼職人員、部分工時人員跟雇主之間的關係和他們彼此的權益？可以這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來研究，好嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。最後我要告訴你的是學校的學助部分，這是教育部那時候出來的，大概在8年前，那些大學的研究生他有領錢，所以學校就請他工作，擔任研究室的助理或幫學校做行政工作，後來有研究生反映說我領你6,000元、領你8,000元，可是我是研究生、碩博生，結果我的勞動權益在哪裡？勞動部那時候出面了，就訂了一個「專科以上學校兼任助理勞動權益保障指導原則」，這是勞動部出面做的，有沒有？在座的官員還有沒有印象？有嘛！對不對？所以那時候分成兩種，一種叫學習型、一種叫行政型，學習型的參與是基於學習的目的，但是如果是行政型的、不是學習型的，就比較強調在勞動的部分給予他保障，學校對於這兩種類型的學生助理是給予不同的條件，有沒有印象？"],["何部長佩珊：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我希望你們可以參酌外送產業的外送作業安全指引，以及過去在勞動部協助之下訂定的專科以上學校兼任助理勞動權益保障指導原則，是不是可以研發包括給運輸業、包括給我們醫療業、包括給農業，如果他是以學生的身分，可以怎麼樣用部分工時方式來參與勞動，補充我們國家的勞動力？可以研究嗎？就是針對這部分去研議。"],["何部長佩珊：我們來研究，好嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：請研議聘用非典型勞動PT人力的可行性，好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多久可以給我一個大概的報告？"],["何部長佩珊：一個月內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。謝謝主席！"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade21c321c6dd17dc10b22eacfd31272a3d94934db31926c3006a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:13:34 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"],["曾董事長文生：所以最重要的是，預算由目的事業主管機關來考慮。"],["黃委員健豪：最後還是靠政府來補貼啦！我要提醒的是，如果把它列為電價上漲的一部分，到最後還是靠政府補貼，那可能後續在交通委員會那邊也會討論到底要不要漲價。我要提的是，如果漲價之後，很多人，尤其是坐捷運、坐火車的人，他寧願回去騎機車，我想這跟整個國家的減碳，希望大家搭乘大眾運輸的邏輯，就背道而馳了，所以這特別提出來提醒一下。","接下來換下一個議題，昨天我想大家也看到AIT處長講台積電會因為綠電、水不足而出走，院長也馬上出來幫經濟部講話，說不會，臺灣的電一定夠用。但是有點牛頭不對馬嘴，因為包含昨天AIT有講這個是綠電的問題，去年美國商會的「2023台灣白皮書」也提到再生能源的發展不如預期也會影響我們產業的運作，包含近期台達電，臺灣綠電的模範生，創辦人也講核三廠停機以後，臺灣在核電除役之後，綠電可能也不足。我們看一下，部長剛剛自己在講的，臺灣現在的再生能源，綠電的結構16%，但是我看去年（2023年）台電公司的報告，發購電量結構裡面的綠電占比，太陽能、風能、水力等有的沒有的加起來大約只占10%，所以我不確定你這個16%到底從何而來。","再來，回過頭來講，今天谷立言講的是說綠電不夠，我們看到去年再生能源的合計是242.9億度，台積電去年用電就230億度了，換句話說，如果全臺灣的綠電全部都給台積電用的話，我們綠電所剩無幾。請問部長，我們要去哪裡生綠電出來？"],["郭部長智輝：綠電的部分，我們有很多的方式在創電，剛才跟很多委員都討論過了，我們的綠電創電的部分來自於風力、來自於光電、來自於水力、來自於生質能源……"],["黃委員健豪：這些我都知道，結構上有寫，我是說去年就是這樣子的數字而已，你這個16%是怎麼來的？"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是它不會隨著年度呈現線性關係，就是每一年、每個月做多少，不會，它是我同時下去做，然後兩年以後、四年以後長出來的，所以創電的時間不一樣，它的量不一樣，得到的結果會不一樣，沒有線性關係。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你16%的計算不是用它每年度的發購電量結果，是用某一天它曾經達到16%，就認為我們的綠電有16%？"],["郭部長智輝：不是這樣，我是不是請他們的專家跟你報告一下？"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，因為我是外委員會的，時間比較少，部長，後續提供書面報告給我，你們那個16%到底怎麼算出來。","回到電的問題，我還是要討論一下今天台中火力電廠即將要環評的部分，現階段10部機組就有550萬瓩，如果讓各位去蓋燃氣機組，未來目標是要蓋6部燃氣機組，蓋到6部燃氣機組之後，它的發電量已經超過了現在的發電量，6部燃氣機組是你們的目標，蓋6部燃氣機組，現有的燃煤機組，過去承諾要拆掉，也的確要拆了4座，你還會留6座燃煤機組給我。部長，昨天在總質詢的時候，我想院長跟你都說不可能把這燃煤機組拆掉，那就回到問題啦！如果電夠用的話，第一個，為什麼要蓋新的？如果蓋新的，如果夠用而且還更多了，舊的為什麼不能拆掉？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是碳的問題啦！"],["黃委員健豪：碳的問題，我知道啊！我就是因為碳的問題所以問你燃煤機組可不可以拆嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：所以就是在解決碳的問題啊！"],["黃委員健豪：解決碳的問題，那你今天已經解決碳的問題，燃煤能不能拆嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：燃煤當然是……"],["黃委員健豪：我沒有反對天然氣喔！"],["郭部長智輝：燃煤當然是要拆啊！"],["黃委員健豪：當然要拆，你確定？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["黃委員健豪：部長，因為昨天院長說沒有喔！"],["郭部長智輝：這是時間嘛！就是什麼時候拆、拆多少。"],["黃委員健豪：拆多少？現在有10部。"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是……"],["黃委員健豪：經濟部過去已經承諾了，第一期拆2部，第二期今天要環評，你要給我們拆幾部？"],["郭部長智輝：我們就看環評結果啊！"],["黃委員健豪：你們的計畫是多少？你們要有計畫……"],["郭部長智輝：要看環評結果。"],["黃委員健豪：你們願意全拆嗎？如果環評結果……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要看環評的結果。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我們今天講的是發電量，我們講的電，現在分兩部分，電量……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在的量跟未來不會一樣的，未來我們整個中部地區還是會持續發展、繁榮，用更多的電，所以……"],["黃委員健豪：但電就是不夠啊！如果照你的邏輯，電就不夠嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：我就是要讓燃氣的電能夠滿足整個大臺中地區，大家都能夠幸福快樂的用電，所以，我們當然是要趕快把燃氣接上去……"],["黃委員健豪：因為主席站起來了，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：將來我們的綠電，如果大家更支持的話，我希望大家可以用綠電。"],["黃委員健豪：我支持啊！部長，我們先講台中電廠就好了。","主席，對不起，最後一段話而已。","現有的燃煤機組10部就有550萬瓩，你蓋了新的燃氣機組之後，再加上現有的燃煤機組，就是810萬瓩，整個發電量就已經超過了本來的燃煤機組了。我現在問的是，一樣你去蓋新的燃氣機組，大家沒有反對，為了減碳也只能這樣子，你蓋了新的燃氣機組，那舊的燃煤機組，你願不願意，經濟部你願不願意把它拆掉，用燃氣換燃煤，發電效率也更高，就這樣子而已，我的問題就這樣子而已。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的目標是一樣的。我們的目標是一樣的，代表我們的方向也是一樣的。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你願意拆掉燃煤機組？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有說不拆掉啊。"],["黃委員健豪：確定喔？好。部長謝謝。主席謝謝。"],["主席：請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T11:09:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T11:21:45+08:00","duration":709,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.9672187500000002,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.27471875,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.817843750000002,"end":29.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.54534375,"end":31.367843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.32534375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.033468750000004,"end":38.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.96159375,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.14721875,"end":39.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.69096875,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.39096875,"end":49.643468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.35659375,"end":52.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.55034375,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.883468750000006,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.03721875000001,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.92721875000001,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.58846875,"end":77.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.97659375,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.86659375,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.00034375,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.49721875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.23534375000001,"end":96.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.28721875000001,"end":115.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.97659375,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.46096875,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.13534375,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.99596875,"end":143.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.13096875000002,"end":143.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":143.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.38409375,"end":144.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.84596875,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.02284375000002,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.95096875000002,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.01846875,"end":161.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.22096875,"end":161.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.55846875,"end":161.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.64284375,"end":163.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.71846875,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.13596875000002,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.90221875,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.13471875000002,"end":209.29784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.37471875,"end":203.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.75846875000002,"end":205.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.29784375000003,"end":213.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.56721875000002,"end":219.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.14096875,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.07721875000001,"end":217.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.86596875,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.32971875,"end":231.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.97909375,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.56909375,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.76284375,"end":244.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.26471875000001,"end":239.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.50346875000002,"end":253.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.93346875,"end":246.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.75534375,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.21034375,"end":260.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.23971875,"end":264.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.58471875000004,"end":273.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.50784375,"end":275.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.56596875,"end":285.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.99159375,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.19346875,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.41596875,"end":291.96846875},{"speake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已經跟黃牛買了他看到代購網站他事件已經跟黃牛買了錢已經匯給黃牛了結果這些黃牛序號被沒收以後被沒收以後這個票他買不到那黃牛又不還錢給這些人那所以造成的問題是是司法問題對不對?是民事嗎?還是政府會怎麼樣去處理這件事情?兩個問題簡單回答吧因為我時間到了"},{"start":631.291,"end":655.287,"text":"委員好,先謝謝委員的意見喔,那先說明一下因為那個基本上黃牛這邊他其實當時是不正方式的掃票就是警方沒入之後他其實是一個刑法偵查的過程所以這一下我們前面在新聞稿的時候也有對外說明我們其實會主動跟主辦單位了解但主辦單位目前的狀況是他這邊的說明是他先配合警方他相關的序號確實現在是警方這邊還在持續偵辦當中那我們會持續跟他們溝通怎麼樣是對消費者權益保障"},{"start":661.431,"end":661.531,"text":"第二個問題"},{"start":690.752,"end":691.012,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":459,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時10分）麻煩請文化部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：葉委員你好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我先跟你詢問一下另外一個不義的事情，我看到前兩天文化部回應記者的詢問說，現在已經受理了1,300件黃牛票的檢舉案，請問最新接到檢舉幾件了，到今天為止，接到幾件？兩天前是1,300件嘛，那今天是幾件？"],["李部長遠：我請辦公室回答，因為它每天都在變化。"],["葉委員元之：幾件？"],["吳司長宜璇：委員好，目前針對周杰倫的部分，大概有收到2,700件的……"],["葉委員元之：兩千多少？你可不可以大聲一點？對著麥克風講。"],["吳司長宜璇：2,700件。"],["葉委員元之：2,700件，兩天前1,300件，現在是2,700件，等於已經是兩倍以上，之後可能會越來越多。我想問一下部長，因為兩天前文化部接受媒體訪問時說要修法遏止，請問修法的方向是什麼？"],["李部長遠：修法其實是很難的事情，但是我們要朝著這個方向，眼看這個事情可能要透過立法院的支持，我們再跟各部會一起討論……"],["葉委員元之：部長不要跟我講修法程序，我知道啦，我是說你們說要透過修法解決，是要修什麼法？是怎麼解？比如說把刑法加嚴還是說把樣態具象化，你要怎麼修法去遏止，要怎麼修？我知道修法程序。"],["李部長遠：我舉一個最近連續兩場演唱會的例子，他們自己直接訂定了實名制跟抽票制，有兩場立刻就要辦，那個可以給我們一個經驗，如果用實名制跟抽選制很成功的話，我們平常所採取的都是勸說，你知道我們開了多少場會議去勸經紀公司跟主辦單位說：你可不可以用實名制，我們可以補助你錢？其實文化部想盡各種方式，但是不能勉強，所以最後如果這些都不行的話，就可能考慮修法，所謂的修法就是看看用什麼方式……"],["葉委員元之：所以部長的意思是，未來考慮要修法，讓以後的演唱會都實名制，是不是這個意思？"],["李部長遠：當然不是這個意思。"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛講的就是這個意思。"],["李部長遠：不是……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我們來這邊答詢時間有限，可不可以針對問題回答？"],["李部長遠：我知道，因為這是一個……"],["葉委員元之：因為你剛剛講你參考了別的演唱會，發現他們用實名制跟抽票有用，因為你們過去都是用勸說，所以你們考慮未來都採用這個方式，因此是要修法，以後都實名制，是這個意思嗎？"],["李部長遠：No，因為我們本身……"],["葉委員元之：又不是了，那你剛剛講那一連串……主席，會議詢問！召委……"],["李部長遠：我們是一個法治國家……"],["葉委員元之：主席，會議詢問！因為我們……現在時間暫停好不好？時間暫停。"],["李部長遠：可以啊，暫停啊！"],["主席：詢問什麼？"],["葉委員元之：不是，因為我問的問題，部長一直繞圈圈，繞完6分鐘就結束，我什麼都沒問到，剛剛我問部長文資法要修法，要怎麼修才能夠阻止惡意黃牛，結果剛剛部長說：我們參考了一些演唱會用實名制，我們現在是勸說，但是實名制效果很好，所以我們考慮修法。那我就問他，是不是要修法成以後都實名制？他又說：不是。那等於剛剛前面3分鐘我們都不知道在講什麼，你可不可以跟……這個部分……"],["主席：現在你問我的這個會議詢問……"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["主席：這個不算時間……"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["主席：但是我想待會這個部分我沒辦法直接介入，就是說……"],["葉委員元之：你請部長針對問題回答，不然這樣子繞半天，這個答詢……"],["主席：好，再來你自己跟部長之間繼續詢答。"],["葉委員元之：你是以主席的角度，站在我們教文會……"],["主席：現在我們扣除你會議詢問的時間……"],["葉委員元之：對、對、對。"],["主席：但是你待會滿不滿意部長的回答，我想我們自己……因為這是一個政治的判斷嘛！"],["葉委員元之：這又政治判斷了？"],["主席：不是……"],["葉委員元之：你在教文委員會是主席嘛！"],["主席：例如郭昱晴委員可能覺得你有回答，然後……"],["葉委員元之：主席你要站在委員的角度跟部長講，要針對委員的問題回答，不是繞了半天最後又說不是。"],["主席：我現在已經回答你的問題了，我想我不介入判斷部長的答案你滿不滿意，好不好？要不然我們每個委員都這樣要求我的話，我們會議時間……"],["葉委員元之：我是請你跟部長講要針對問題回答，我只講這個事情而已。"],["主席：我想原則上我們對所有委員的質詢……"],["葉委員元之：所以主席你認為部長不針對問題回答是OK的，反正交給選民來政治判斷喔？"],["主席：不是，部長當然要回答，但是每一個委員對部長的答案是不是能夠滿足，我就不介入判斷，好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：剛剛那樣子，所以你覺得剛剛部長這樣子有針對問題回答嗎？"],["主席：這個部分我就不介入判斷。"],["葉委員元之：不介入判斷？"],["主席：要不然每一個不同黨派的委員都要求我判斷的話，我變成……"],["葉委員元之：我只是請你站在主席的角度，既然在立法院備詢，就是要針對問題回答，如果只是想要把這6分鐘拖掉，那這個備詢其實沒有什麼意義，因為只是拖時間……"],["主席：我想所有的部長不分黨派，當然都要……"],["葉委員元之：這個原則應該是不分黨派都支持的。"],["主席：所有委員的質詢……"],["葉委員元之：你作為主席，你就跟部長講，請部長針對問題回答，這有那麼難嗎？"],["主席：你希望現在我不是你的……我跟你平等，不是你質詢我。"],["葉委員元之：我沒有質詢你啊！我只是說你作為主席，不然主席做召委……"],["主席：我現在已經說，主席維持中立，關於實質的答案，委員滿不滿意我沒有辦法介入判斷，好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：好，請問一下主席，我們要求他按照問題回答是可以的嗎？"],["主席：你當然可以要求他按照問題答。"],["李部長遠：我可不可以回答？我可不可以回答？"],["主席：OK，你的會議詢問我已經答完了。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：OK，那現在時間繼續計時。"],["李部長遠：你讓我完整的答完，好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：不是，你要怎麼修法，你就跟我說你要修哪一條？"],["李部長遠：好，那我現在跟你說。"],["葉委員元之：對，哪一條？"],["李部長遠：你讓我唸好不好？"],["葉委員元之：好。"],["李部長遠：因為我們有完整的修法概念。"],["葉委員元之：那你剛剛為什麼不講？好，你請。"],["李部長遠：我只是一個前言講到最近有這樣兩個……"],["葉委員元之：好，請說，不要再浪費時間了。"],["李部長遠：請你不要打斷我。我們會繼續跟地方政府研議考慮所轄的大型場館，大型場館都是由地方政府在管，我們來設計實名制入場的規範或者優惠，優惠就是我們現在正在做的，你用實名制，我們就給你一些補助，提升業者採行實名制入場的意願；第二，與相關單位研商重新思考合理的銷售成本、強制實名制、資料調查權等措施調整之可行性。"],["葉委員元之：好，這是修哪一個法？因為你們文化部說要修法嘛，你們現在都是用鼓勵啊，或是在執行上面比較強硬，那你要修哪一個法？我的問題是，你要修哪一個法？"],["李部長遠：就原來的法律。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛，你現在就沒有要修法嘛，你剛剛講那兩個都是你們要鼓勵、透過獎勵或是更嚴格的方式落實實名制。"],["李部長遠：好，那我可以……"],["葉委員元之：我現在的問題是，你要修什麼法來遏止黃牛？"],["李部長遠：文創法，但是請你們立法院……"],["葉委員元之：你要修文創法，方向是什麼？你要怎麼修？"],["李部長遠：就是剛才那兩個方向。"],["葉委員元之：所以就是你要……"],["李部長遠：但是立法院一定要支持我啊。"],["葉委員元之：立法院支持不支持……我現在先問你的態度，不要扯別的嘛。"],["李部長遠：我態度已經講了啊。"],["葉委員元之：你的態度就是要修文創法，以後規定實名制是不是？"],["李部長遠：不一定，要透過……"],["葉委員元之：又不一定了？"],["李部長遠：我剛才已經很完整的唸完了。"],["葉委員元之：所以修法內容是，以後我們不一定實名制，這個法律有修跟沒修的差別在哪？"],["李部長遠：我剛才為什麼要一個字一個字唸，就是……"],["葉委員元之：部長……"],["李部長遠：我為什麼要一個字一個字唸，因為我不希望你扭曲……"],["葉委員元之：你沒有回答到我的問題，沒有關係啦！我覺得按照召委說法，這大家可受公評啦，因為你們告訴媒體說你們考慮修法，我來這邊問你要修什麼法，你又告訴我你只在執行上面要更鼓勵大家做實名制，然後你又說希望我們立法院可以支持你，你就沒有要修法，要我們支持什麼？現在你就是沒有針對我的問題回答。沒關係、沒關係，這我們就交給大家去公評啦！","我再問部長一個問題，那天你來的時候，剛好中午是周杰倫的黃牛票開賣，當時早上很多人都提醒你網路上有非常多周杰倫的黃牛票在代購，我當時也有提醒你，然後部長的意思是，有人檢舉你們才會辦，你們不主動稽查，結果後來整個網路炸鍋，一堆人確實就是因為繞圈圈買不到，所以政府開始動起來了，警政署下令，然後地方政府、文化部就開始去查，所以剛剛講二千七百多件，我只要提醒部長，第一個，如果在開賣之前，你們就主動稽查的話，那麼多人檢舉給你們，你們有主動稽查的話，實際上情況可能會少很多；第二個，現在即便是你們稽查有抓到很多黃牛，衍生出幾個問題，我跟您請教，那些黃牛買到的票、搶到的序號，有的搶到幾百個序號，請問一下這個序號怎麼處理？搶到的序號怎麼處理？"],["李部長遠：你問的問題是必須主辦單位……"],["葉委員元之：你就是打黃牛的主辦單位啊！"],["李部長遠：No、No……"],["葉委員元之：又不是了？"],["李部長遠：經紀公司也好……主辦單位……"],["葉委員元之：經紀公司？所以打黃牛這件事情是經紀公司自己去打，跟文化部都無關？"],["李部長遠：委員，其實你要知道，黃牛的生成是非常複雜的……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我今天不是跟你討論哲學的問題，我問的問題都很具體，我的問題是，這些用掃票機器人在網路上掃到了幾百個序號，後來因為稽查的結果發現這些都要沒收，那怎麼處理？你們的作法是還給主辦單位？還是沒收？還是怎麼處理？我現在問你這個問題嘛，這問題很具體吧？"],["李部長遠：我們無權沒收。"],["葉委員元之：無權沒收，所以怎麼處理？"],["李部長遠：我一直在跟委員解釋……"],["葉委員元之：那怎麼處理？"],["李部長遠：我一直在跟你解釋……"],["葉委員元之：你無權沒收，那這個序號就沒了，所以主辦單位就空在那邊，還是說你們抓到之後會把這個序號還給主辦單位，請主辦單位擇期再一次辦理線上的搶票，要怎麼做你們都沒有想到嗎？你們都沒有去想到這個問題嗎？然後我再請教一個問題，等一下一起回答。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["葉委員元之：有人因為看到代購網站事先就已經跟黃牛買了，錢已經匯給黃牛了，結果這些黃牛的序號被沒收以後，這個票他買不到，黃牛又不還錢給這些人，所造成的問題是私法問題，對不對？是民事嗎？還是政府會怎麼處理這件事情？就這兩個問題，請簡短回答，因為我的時間到了。"],["吳司長宜璇：委員好，先謝謝委員的意見。要先說明一下，因為基本上黃牛當時是以不正方式的掃票，在警方沒入之後其實會進入刑法偵查的過程，所以這一項在我們之前的新聞稿也有對外說明，我們其實會主動跟主辦單位瞭解，但是主辦單位目前的狀況是，它這邊的說明也是會先配合警方，相關序號現在確實警方這邊還在持續偵辦當中，我們會持續跟他們溝通怎麼樣是對消費者權益保障最好的方式。"],["葉委員元之：你們的想法是什麼？"],["吳司長宜璇：因為基本上每一個售票單位都有自己對於票務的規劃方式，我們沒有辦法強制，所以我們其實還是會繼續先做瞭解，也請他們持續以消費者權益為最大的考量去思考。至於是否要再釋出，或者是警方在偵查過後，什麼時間點可以將票還到票務單位手上，這些我們都會繼續掌握時間跟瞭解，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：那第二個問題呢？第二個問題是，錢已經匯給他卻拿不回來，這部分是不是民法的問題？"],["吳司長宜璇：這部分確實可能會是屬於私法的部分，但委員關注的這個我們會去多瞭解目前到底有哪幾個案件需要……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！所以我們的結論就是，因為文化部不積極打黃牛才造成了這些問題嘛！希望你們以後可以積極打黃牛，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員質詢，部長請回。","再來請林宜瑾委員代主席。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾代）：接下來請范雲召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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那我們請部長請何部長部長早安"},{"start":16.838,"end":38.508,"text":"今天剛好說有一個颱風馬上要過來嘛那今天早上已經那抗疫颱風已經說已經轉成強度颱風嘛那我想說因為也有氣象專家預估說接下來可能這兩天會可能會放颱風架會有這個狀況所以我想說因為這是一個大家很關心的議題啦所以我想跟部長就教一下這個部分"},{"start":40.109,"end":57.044,"text":"當然是說法律並沒有颱風架這個名詞嘛對不對這應該是這樣沒有錯啦所以這颱風架到底算不算架期?這部長算不算架期啊?不算架啊所以大家說的那個颱風架其實是一個天然災害發生就是那個"},{"start":58.51,"end":85.244,"text":"那個什麼勞工出行管理跟工資給付要點他是個要點嘛對不對我想這個不知道有沒有錯行政指引對好好好謝謝好那我想請教一下地方首長他宣布停班停課地方首長的這個宣布的這個效力有約束民間企業的效力嗎沒有他是約束機關跟學校對對好所以呢"},{"start":86.466,"end":106.449,"text":"就是簡單來說其實很多企業他跟著政府放這個假其實是體恤員工怕他上班危險嘛也就是其實這個要點我要強調就是要點因為他沒有到達法律的位階他是要點所以說對於企業也沒有什麼拘束力嘛那還有你剛剛所提到的其實這個所謂颱風假他不是假"},{"start":107.79,"end":121.595,"text":"他根本就不是一個休假概念所以沒有法制化的現狀會發生一個狀況就是說我這邊要大概整理一下第一個就是假設今天公務員在放颱風架我以公務員來說好了公務員在放颱風架的話"},{"start":123.645,"end":148.843,"text":"民間企業的人可能會遇到第一個老闆要正常上班像記者這邊很多記者就是這樣老闆會叫正常上班那第二個呢老闆也可能跟他說那你就不要來上班了可是他就沒有錢當天就沒有錢那第三個就是如果是上班到中午下午放颱風架那也有可能像剛剛那兩個狀況一個是老闆叫你回去沒有錢另外一個是繼續叫你上班上到下班為止"},{"start":149.784,"end":174.274,"text":"那因為我們剛剛提到的那個是要點並沒有到法律位階所以勞動部這幾年我看到了對外的說法都是說希望僱主多多照顧跟體系員工宜多給錢宜不扣薪水或提供交通這個宜的意思我想說法律上面就是得嘛那得的意思就是可以要也可以不要所以到最後變成是"},{"start":175.254,"end":201.982,"text":"員工在賭運氣看會不會遇到好的老闆那像我知道像記者的他們的體系就是颱風架他還是要上班只是老闆可能會給他補修如果是公務員的話是你沒有上班颱風架放兩天三天他一樣也是領月薪他沒有受影響所以這個我們對於勞工是不是有一點點比較不公平既然颱風天不是"},{"start":203.207,"end":218.628,"text":"屬於國定假日那業主要求勞工上班而且沒有那個補假或加班費部長您知道這個嗎當然我們這個就是是我們指引就是勸部主不可以這麼做的"},{"start":220.524,"end":234.845,"text":"可是如果只是勸雇主的話﹖對雇主沒有任何拘束力啊﹖那﹖其實委員現在的雇主多半真的都會﹖報告部長我們不能用多半"},{"start":235.586,"end":251.483,"text":"我想要公佈們像我們處理事情就是有一說一有二說二嘛那我今天早上質詢的時候也是這樣講我說政府不是天使組成人類也不是天使所組成的所以很多時候做事情不可能像我們完美的思考那個方向去走一定會有很多雇主"},{"start":252.364,"end":280.043,"text":"很難搞我自己以前學生時代打工也遇過很難搞的雇主好那我們看一下就是說其實颱風天上班遇到的那個風險是蠻多的其實這個例子太多了我也不細說啦就颱風天上班之後出狀況或是上班正常出勤下出狀況的人其實不少所以說這麼多年來政府尤其是我們的現在的執政黨一直說最保障勞工啊"},{"start":280.763,"end":300.518,"text":"那是不是說應該要把它從法制化的方向去走而不是留在要點?部裡面可不可以思考這個問題?就是你問那個員工是碰運氣嗎?部長?各位委員報告主要是考慮臺灣的產業特性我們那個專題其實要太多了各行各業又太那個"},{"start":301.238,"end":329.603,"text":"所以你如果用法律,其實世界各國也沒有說在用法律規範天災假或是颱風假這樣的東西所以它法制化有一定程度的就是說各國沒有潛力可援引。第二個是我們在國內的民情適用上恐怕會有點自愛難寫。您想想看連縣市首長放颱風假都會遇到很多抱怨。更何況是邀請法區法律規定"},{"start":330.523,"end":358.115,"text":"我跟部長報告一個點就是說本期這邊建議還是要朝向法制化的方向思考因為每一個員工他都是一個家庭我們應該保障每一個人真的公務員受盡了保障我幹了24年的公務員排工假放假有薪水照領沒有炒過一毛錢但是勞工很辛苦卻沒有這樣子的對待是不是政府可以把他朝向法制化的方向去走就像您說的大部分的老闆都會"},{"start":359.415,"end":359.455,"text":"謝謝委員好 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有啊是不是那這一次颱風來的時候會不會發生像上一次有可能潰堤的情況呢?我們做最好的這個準備嘛因應這個最壞的狀況那對於相關的不管是"},{"start":130.936,"end":151.326,"text":"在河川內的就是說海堤的就是堤防以及相關的區域治水有沒有辦法協助長化縣那當然有啊有啊系統性的我們區域排水總共是26億那還加上治理的還加上了整個計畫26家26家幾億26家8億有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":158.7,"end":187.631,"text":"我們現在都已經開始在進行設計之中了已經在設計了嗎對希望經濟部可以大力的協助因為畢竟到時候如果淹水了可能所有的產業設施很多委員所關心的不管是產業的問題不管是農業的問題都會發生非常重大的損失我希望經濟部可以做好準備可以嗎"},{"start":188.651,"end":208.268,"text":"這個部長多次的叮嚀除了委員說明了之外對於比如說弱勢的地方不可中斷的營運不可中斷的地方我們都已經在加強在做處理這裡面包括抽水機的這個調度還有治理的工作好 謝謝喔 謝謝署長我現在想要請台電"},{"start":215.333,"end":219.428,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":223.777,"end":227.919,"text":"現在我們台灣全年度的用電是2765億度台積電一家就用了247.75度佔了大概是8%那整個半導體呢佔多少%你應該知道吧應該是12%"},{"start":249.588,"end":249.708,"text":"是的。是的。"},{"start":274.195,"end":281.191,"text":"那剩下來的只有4%那4%裡面我們中小企業可以用到幾%?"},{"start":284.127,"end":310.033,"text":"我們現在是看這樣子啦就是說到底要用綠我們這個是比例啦全國發電的比例大概16%是綠電啦但是用綠電的人大概需要用綠電的產生除了半導體以外其他的中小企業哪一些需要產生綠電 團產也可能需要啊如果未來他們要出口他們就需要綠電了這怎麼處理"},{"start":312.033,"end":340.863,"text":"我們當然就是統計他們需要需求量然後幫助他們第一個可以買到綠電第二個幫助他們能夠節能又能夠減碳我想剛才也有很多的委員就這個節能減碳這個問題大家在討論你知道你在提倡的是ASCO就是能夠深度節能的部分那目前中小企業來共同來做這個深度節能你們經濟部協助了多少"},{"start":341.243,"end":356.861,"text":"那但是未來最大的情況就是這4%除了高科技產業所用的這12%的綠電剩下的4%的綠電你怎麼樣子能夠給中小企業以及你們未來"},{"start":357.802,"end":362.508,"text":"我們現在綠電的就是從發電的部分來看就是最快速的方法就是從風力"},{"start":378.266,"end":392.53,"text":"然後太陽能再來水利再來就是地熱第三生殖能我們有5、6種方式可以再提高綠電的這個量現在都是同時在進行中我們預計是這樣子本來是2025年底要能夠達到這個20%但是現在因為過去的一些總統原因那delay到2026年的11月可以達標那麼就綠電來講"},{"start":407.996,"end":419.673,"text":"2026年的這個年底的時候我們大概可以發到550億度所以這個這樣子的一個量能我們其實是可以滿足到2030年"},{"start":421.533,"end":447.727,"text":"那我想請問為什麼不用核電那所謂的原本的核電跟你所謂的新核能有什麼差別?報告委員我想你也是非常清楚這個核電是潔淨的能源對減碳是有幫助的但是核電不是綠電我知道我們現在目前2030年之前努力的方向是趕快讓需要綠電的人滿足它"},{"start":448.851,"end":449.191,"text":"對,我問你的是"},{"start":476.501,"end":498.758,"text":"現在所謂的核電跟新核能有什麼差異性那新核能它增加的成本更高那對於我們整體的減碳有什麼幫助是 報告委員我想這個命題我們都是可以討論的所以還在討論是不是我想應該是在討論因為我們如果確定"},{"start":501.396,"end":524.356,"text":"這個安全沒有問題第二個核廢料是可以處理的第三個全民有共識那這個三個前提都是可以解開的那我們目前碰到的問題是這樣子我想您指導的這個核三的問題或者核二的問題這個我們現在在這個法令上面他還是沒有辦法我們陛下先把這個法解開以後"},{"start":525.469,"end":546.425,"text":"響鐘﹗"},{"start":546.425,"end":549.267,"text":"那不用核電的情況下是不是就增加了火力的發電?"},{"start":567.017,"end":591.423,"text":"沒有啊,不一定,我剛才講過了,不增加的話,我們有很多的方法有啊,你現在台中的那個,現在要今天下午要審議的那個燃氣機組他就超過了原本的火力發電的容量啊,是不是?那不就是在增加嗎?那個用電量是可以增加,然後減碳量可以大幅降低"},{"start":592.194,"end":599.239,"text":"用電量增加,那你不是在增加火力發電嗎?你不就在增加火力發電嗎?是不是?只是把它從燃煤變成燃氣嘛,是不是?不是,我們現在如果"},{"start":608.735,"end":608.935,"text":"火力是綠電嗎?"},{"start":634.295,"end":652.977,"text":"火力當然不是綠電火力也不是乾淨的能源對不對所以我們將來會用氫來捕捉這個碳用氫能來捕捉碳這個我們也在研究開發一方面我們加快那個綠能的開發所以我的綠能是在"},{"start":653.758,"end":673.826,"text":"在我們這個時候不斷的在加發太陽能光電或者是這個水力發電或地熱的發電或者是風力的發電那風力除了陸域的風電以外我們還有這個離岸的風電那這個部分其實是我認為可以得到更大的這個support如果大家"},{"start":675.286,"end":700.074,"text":"我相信就是大家在看了這台積電它用那麼多電半導體用那麼多電我們中小微的企業也需要做這麼多電臺灣就是一個以出口為導向以世界為我們的市場的這樣的一個國家的話我們必須要滿足所有企業大中小微它需要用的綠電我都要滿足它所以"},{"start":701.355,"end":703.779,"text":"將來的話2050年我希望我的綠電能夠到達70%好,謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時1分）謝謝主席，我想請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有水利署署長。"],["主席：請賴署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["主席：賴署長還沒回來，去找他一下，好嗎？"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，你知道颱風要來了吧？這跟你們水利署有非常大的關係，你知道嗎？你應該知道吧？署長怎麼不見了，慘了，你看！你署長落跑了！是不是因為颱風太大了，署長都落跑了，災情會不會像上次一樣嚴重？"],["郭部長智輝：署長來了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不講是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：他去上洗手間。"],["謝委員衣鳯：署長，你落跑了，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：他去關心災情。"],["謝委員衣鳯：颱風太大，你落跑了，是不是？"],["賴署長建信：委員，我們對於康芮颱風的部分，現在正在加強準備，今天也跟縣長通過電話，針對於之前凱米颱風彰化縣境內所有淹水的問題，他現在已經開始預部了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！對於我們大城地區、和美地區、鹿港地區上一次淹水的情況，這一次會不會再次發生？"],["賴署長建信：屬於縣政府所管的這個部分，他們已經在加強準備，然後我們對於縣政府未來治理的需求……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那四河局管的呢？"],["賴署長建信：四河局管的部分當然我們禮拜一就已經開始做防颱的準備了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有沒有開始做了？"],["賴署長建信：一定啊！有啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：那這一次颱風來的時候，會不會發生像上一次有可能潰堤的情況呢？"],["賴署長建信：我們做最好的準備，因應最壞的狀況。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於相關的，不管是在河川內的，即海堤的堤防，以及相關的區域治水，有沒有辦法協助彰化縣？"],["賴署長建信：那當然有啊！有系統性的治水方式……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們區域排水總共是26億，還加上治理的整個計畫，26加8億，有沒有辦法處理？"],["賴署長建信：我們現在都已經開始在進行設計之中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：已經在設計了嗎？"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：希望經濟部可以大力的協助，因為畢竟到時候如果淹水了，可能所有的產業設施、很多委員所關心的，不管是產業的問題，不管是農業的問題都會發生非常重大的損失，我希望經濟部可以做好準備，可以嗎？"],["賴署長建信：這個部長多次的叮嚀，除了委員說明的部分之外，對於比如說弱勢的地方、營運不可中斷的地方，我們都已經在加強處理，包括抽水機的調度還有治理的工作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝署長。我現在想要請台電。"],["曾董事長文生：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，我問你。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在我們臺灣全年度的用電是2,765億度，台積電一家就用了247.75億度，占了大概是8%，那整個半導體占多少%？你應該知道吧？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是12%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請教，如果半導體的用電占了12%，他們的用電大部分都是綠電，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：大部分都是。那我們臺灣整體的綠電目前到達幾%？16%？上一次你們說16%，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：剩下來的只有4%，那4%裡面，我們中小企業可以用到幾%？"],["郭部長智輝：我們這個是比例，全國發電的比例大概16%是綠電，但是需要用綠電的產業除了半導體以外，其他的中小企業哪一些需要綠電……"],["謝委員衣鳯：傳產也可能需要啊，如果未來他們要出口，他們就需要綠電，這怎麼處理？"],["郭部長智輝：是，完全正確。我們當然就是統計他們的需求量，然後幫助他們，第一個可以買到綠電，第二個幫助他們能夠節能又能夠減碳，剛才也很多委員就節能減碳這個問題，大家在討論……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，你在提倡的是ESCO，就是能夠深度節能的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前中小企業共同來做深度節能，你們經濟部協助了多少？未來最大的情況就是這4%，除了高科技產業所用的這12%的綠電，剩下4%的綠電你能夠怎麼樣給中小企業？以及大家都在說未來AI高度的發展，他們要用的綠電有可能又會提高，那在提高的情況下，你們怎麼樣子再提高我們的綠電？"],["郭部長智輝：關於綠電，我們現在從發電的部分來看，最快速的方法就是從風力、然後太陽能、再來水力、再來就是地熱、生質能，我們有五、六種方式可以再提高綠電的量，現在都在同時進行中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：能提高到多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們預計是這樣，本來是2025年底要能夠達到20%，但是因為過去的一些種種原因，delay到2026年的11月可以達標，就綠電來講，2026年年底的時候，我們大概可以發到550億度，所以這樣子的一個量能，我們其實是可以滿足到2030年。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那我想請問為什麼不用核電？原本的核電跟你所謂的新核能有什麼差別？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想你也非常清楚，核電是潔淨的能源，對減碳是有幫助的，但是核電不是綠電。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在2030年之前努力的方向是趕快滿足需要綠電的人，距離2050年，我們還有一段時間可以來努力，所以我們大家都希望能夠討論核電，我們基本上現在有三個基本原則，如果我們今天要重啟，或者我們要延用，第一個要確它是安全的，第二個核廢料是可以處理的，第三個全民有共識……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我問你的是現在所謂的核電跟新核能有什麼差異性？新核能增加的成本更高，那對於我們整體的減碳有什麼幫助？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個命題我們都是可以討論……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以還在討論，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我想應該是在討論，因為我們如果確定安全沒有問題，第二個確認核廢料是可以處理的，第三個全民有共識，這三個前提都是可以解開的，我們目前碰到的問題是這樣子，您指導的核三的問題或者核二的問題，我們現在在法令上面，它還是沒有辦法，我們必須要先把這個法解開以後，才可以充分的去解決這個問題，這個法如果沒有辦法解開的話，現在經濟部必須要依法行事，也就是說，現在的設備時間到了、40年到了，它就要停機，如果要重新啟用，在5年前就必須要開始進入這個程序，目前卡關是在這個上面，如果全國的國民都同意啟用核電，我相信我們都可以討論這個命題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在不用核電的情況下，是不是就增加了火力的發電？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啊！不一定，我剛才講過了……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：不增加的話，我們有很多的方法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有啊！今天下午要審議台中電廠的燃氣機組，它就超過了原本火力發電的容量，是不是？那不就是在增加嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：用電量是可以增加，然後減碳量可以大幅降低。"],["謝委員衣鳯：用電量增加，那你不是在增加火力發電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：但是那個是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不就在增加火力發電嗎？是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們當然是就字義上面……"],["謝委員衣鳯：只是把它從燃煤變成燃氣嘛，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，因為我們現在要減碳，減碳才是我們的第一個目標，減碳最快的方式，就是用燃氣來減掉燃煤的碳，現在大家比較concern的就是碳的問題，所以我們先用燃氣來減碳，這個是快速可以達標的，減碳以後……"],["謝委員衣鳯：火力是綠電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：火力當然不是綠電。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊！火力不是綠電，火力也不是乾淨的能源，對不對？以上，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們將來會用氫來捕捉碳、用氫能來捕捉碳，這個我們也在研究開發，一方面我們加快綠能的開發，所以綠能在這個時候不斷地加發太陽能光電或者是水力發電或地熱的發電或者是風力的發電，風力除了陸域的風電以外，我們還有離岸風電，這個部分我認為其實是可以得到更大的support，如果大家願意支持台電發更多的電，我相信就是大家在看的，台積電用那麼多電、半導體用那麼多電，我們中小微企業也需要這麼多電，臺灣就是一個以出口為導向、以世界為市場的國家，我們必須要滿足所有企業，大中小微所需要用的綠電我都要滿足，所以將來2050年我希望綠電能夠到達70%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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我想我們現在遇到最大的問題就是說一方面有人沒有投入"},{"start":23.223,"end":46.709,"text":"然後一方面是有老闆請不到工那這當中到底為什麼會有這樣的一個差別這個所謂的一個學用落差的問題還是因為這個勞動力沒有人願意進入到底是什麼樣的一個狀況我們有沒有去分析過是有"},{"start":47.699,"end":72.249,"text":"那到底是什麼原因?這是您講的都是原因。學用落差就是一個很嚴重的問題。學用落差,然後還有勞動力,我們年輕一輩的不願意進入。然後如果有技術面的問題,我們現在都缺技術面,是這樣嗎?好,那重點是我們即將又有378萬的人要退休了。"},{"start":73.052,"end":93.051,"text":"那這些如果退了之後其實很多技術人員說真的他們現在都被重聘回來為什麼要重聘回來沒有技術人員可以去指導啊然後所有的公司或是工廠的一個延續性延續不下去嘛"},{"start":93.892,"end":120.381,"text":"那重點是好我們現在目前一些剛退休的我們還可以拼回來可是如果在10年後呢在10年後呢所以這個問題現在的缺工從工業面工業面缺工3600人這都是我們勞動部的資料喔工業就缺了3600人好你說我們的勞動力"},{"start":122.438,"end":135.221,"text":"比較辛苦的勞動力不願意進入到我們的工業那好我們看到服務業也缺了三萬五千六百人連服務業喔也缺了三萬五千六百人"},{"start":136.28,"end":157.338,"text":"所以這個問題已經到了你沒有去把它變成是一個上位各部會去討論的說真的很難解決已經很難解決了我們所看到的說現在目前失業率可能依照比例當中雖然我們現在總計是3.43%"},{"start":161.181,"end":184,"text":"可是我們看到一個區塊很大區塊就是15到24歲就是我們剛畢業的這個區塊那奇怪了剛畢業的這個區塊我們再看往前光服務業不要說工業啦工業你說因為有一些勞動然後有一些年輕人可能技術面沒有辦法可是光服務業"},{"start":185.598,"end":185.839,"text":"好,部長。"},{"start":195.834,"end":220.075,"text":"這怎麼辦是這就是委員在15到24歲11趴的這樣的失業率這代表一個學用落差真的很嚴重就是另外一個是新型態的平台經濟的勞動型態也吸引了很多年輕人所以讓他們也不願意去投入這種傳統的勞動領域甚至包括服務業都是"},{"start":220.575,"end":247.062,"text":"所以這那包括可是呢我們服務業的部門呢他又普遍低薪這也是一個大問題對那部長這怎麼辦這個我們都知道整個新型態服務的一些改變讓年輕人寧可進入到新型態的一個服務勞動然後不願意進入到這比較實質面實體面的一些服務勞動"},{"start":249.062,"end":258.414,"text":"我們就認為在這個區塊那怎麼辦因為平台總是有一些空間而已嘛並不是全部都可以進入到這裡"},{"start":260.182,"end":281.861,"text":"當他飽和的時候還是要回歸到一個現實面那這怎麼辦我們現在就是要強化青年在這個包括他的執訓還有包括他的中階技術人力的培育因為長期以來說解決學用落差就是我們現在要也是要跟教育部經濟部一起來合作來處理的"},{"start":283.542,"end":308.609,"text":"就是這個學訓用的整合要真的要趕快再強化對那我們部長這個這個問題齁大概從56年前我們發現從一直講一直講講到現在學用落差當時候最夯的就是博士去賣雞排那個當時候哇大家一片的震驚但是現在稀鬆平常"},{"start":309.916,"end":336.163,"text":"現在是稀鬆平常所以我們反而一直在講不但沒有解決問題反而問題更大那表示到底是我們的勞動部教育部我們相關的單單位沒有整合起來或是並沒有真正針對問題去做解決還是甚至我們這樣的一個平台我們不是固定都有開相關會議嗎有"},{"start":338.064,"end":357.902,"text":"我們有三部會的平台會議可是平安心講這真的要檢討就是這相關的學訓用整合計畫目前落實都不好對啊那為什麼落實不好部長你都會感覺落實不好了那為什麼會落實不好"},{"start":359.803,"end":378.81,"text":"這個問題明明就部長我相信在五六年前那個新聞大家非常震驚說哇你看博士去賣雞排現在大家是覺得正常哇這是變成大家心態改變了不是政府改變了是大家內心深處的心態改變了這是有問題所以你看我們這個所謂跨部會的平台會議我們已經幾年了"},{"start":389.838,"end":394.521,"text":"我國全時職位缺工概況：陳亭妃我國全時職位缺工概況：陳亭妃我國全時職位缺工概況：陳亭妃"},{"start":419.585,"end":437.312,"text":"部長怎麼辦在你們依照你們在第一線的這個勞動力的一個評估跟看法對委員跟委員報告其實就是產業的需求似乎在我們學訓用整合的這一個銜接上一直都有落差"},{"start":438.152,"end":464.858,"text":"就是你找了學生來可是呢企業在哪裡就是企業也未必願意來先把這些學生先可是部長你如果問教育部教育部就跟你講說有啊我們都有在做盤整啊然後我們也都有符合我們資訊我們技職學校都有在開課啊"},{"start":466.398,"end":486.573,"text":"問題就來了就是技職學校所開的課並不是現在產業所需要的那現在產業需要什麼?你們是不是要彙整你們勞動部跟經濟部?是啊你們要去彙整啊你們勞動部跟經濟部你們的需求是什麼?你們的要求是什麼?"},{"start":487.873,"end":513.311,"text":"這樣才能真正在教育部的體系當中在職系或是在技職的一個系所裡面有他發揮的空間嘛對不對那這個到底什麼時候部長你可以給我們時間我每次如果沒有壓時間好像今天講完之後就不見了是不是這個檢討是不是可以一個月給我們知道說到底經濟部跟勞動部現在盤整出來"},{"start":514.432,"end":514.492,"text":"謝謝陳亭妃"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時1分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。我想我們現在遇到最大的問題就是，一方面有人沒有工作，一方面是有老闆請不到工，這當中到底為什麼會有這樣的差別？是所謂學用落差的問題，還是因為這個勞動力沒有人願意進入？到底是什麼樣的一個狀況，我們有沒有去分析過？"],["何部長佩珊：是，有。"],["陳委員亭妃：到底是什麼原因？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實您講的都是原因。"],["陳委員亭妃：都是原因？"],["何部長佩珊：對，學用落差就是一個很嚴重的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，學用落差，然後還有勞動力，我們年輕一輩的不願意進入……"],["何部長佩珊：是，薪資沒有誘因。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果有技術面的問題，我們現在都缺技術面，是這樣嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，重點是我們即將又有378萬人要退休了，這些人如果退了之後，其實很多技術人員，說真的，他們現在都被重聘回來，為什麼要重聘回來？因為找不到技術員啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有技術員可以去指導啊，然後所有的公司或工廠的延續性延續不下去嘛！重點是現在對於一些剛退休的人我們還可以聘回來，可是如果再10年後呢？所以這個問題是現在缺工，從工業面來說，缺工3萬600人，這都是我們勞動部的資料喔！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：工業方面就缺了3萬600人，好，你說比較辛苦的勞動力不願意進入到我們的工業，但我們看到服務業也缺了3萬5,600人，連服務業也缺了3萬5,600人，所以這個問題已經到了如果沒有把它變成是上位並請各部會一起去討論的問題，說真的很難解決。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：已經很難解決了！我們所看到的是，以目前的失業率來說，雖然總計是3.43%，可是我們看到一個很大區塊的就是15到24歲，也就是剛畢業的這個區塊，奇怪了，剛畢業的這個區塊，我們再看，光是服務業，不要說工業啦，工業因為有一些勞動，然後有一些年輕人可能技術面沒有辦法，可是光服務業也是缺工這麼多，然後15到24歲的失業率是11.88%，部長，這怎麼辦？"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，在15到24歲有11%的失業率，這代表學用落差真的很嚴重，另外一個是新型態的平臺經濟的勞動型態也吸引了很多年輕人，讓他們也不願意去投入這種傳統的勞動領域，甚至包括服務業都是，而且我們服務業的部門又普遍低薪，這也是一個大問題，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，部長，這怎麼辦？這些我們都知道，整個新型態服務的一些改變，讓年輕人寧可進入到新型態的服務勞動……"],["何部長佩珊：平臺經濟。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後不願意進入到比較實質面、實體面的一些服務勞動，我們就想請問這個區塊怎麼辦？因為平臺總是有一些空間而已嘛，並不是全部都可以進入到這裡，當它飽和的時候，還是要回歸到一個現實面，這怎麼辦？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們現在就是要強化包括青年的職訓，包括中階技術人力的培育，因為長期以來，我們要解決學用落差，我們現在也是要跟教育部、經濟部一起來合作及處理的，就是學、訓、用的整合真的要趕快再強化，我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，這個問題大概從五、六年前我們發現後就一直講、一直講的講到現在，學用落差當時最夯的就是博士去賣雞排，當時大家一片的震驚，但是現在稀鬆平常，現在是稀鬆平常！所以我們一直在講，不但沒有解決問題，反而問題更大，到底是我們的勞動部、教育部及相關單位沒有整合起來，還是並沒有真正針對問題去做解決，還是甚至我們這樣的一個平臺，我們不是固定都有開相關會議嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：有，我們有三部會的平臺會議。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！"],["何部長佩珊：可是憑良心講，這真的要檢討，就是相關的學訓用整合計畫目前的落實都不好。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，那為什麼落實不好？部長，你都會感覺落實不好了，那為什麼會落實不好？這個問題明明就……"],["何部長佩珊：沒有match……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我相信五、六年前的那個新聞讓大家非常震驚說：哇，你看博士去賣雞排，現在大家是覺得正常，這是大家心態改變了，不是政府改變，是大家內心深處的心態改變，這是有問題的，你看我們這個所謂跨部會的平臺會議已經幾年了？"],["何部長佩珊：四、五年。"],["陳委員亭妃：幾年了？"],["何部長佩珊：差不多有四、五年了。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，四、五年了。這個平臺就是在當時這個新聞出來後大家覺得太嚴重，不是浪費我們整個教育資源而已，是一個博士生，一個博士耶，所以我們認為這四、五年來不但沒有改變，更加嚴重，部長，怎麼辦？以你們在第一線勞動力的評估跟看法來說。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，其實就是產業的需求似乎在我們學訓用整合的銜接上一直都有落差，就是……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！"],["何部長佩珊：就是你找了學生來，可是企業在哪裡？就是企業也未必願意先把這些學生……"],["陳委員亭妃：可是部長，你如果去問教育部，教育部就會跟你說：有啊，我們都有在做盤整啊，然後也都有符合職訓，技職學校都有在開課啊！問題就來了，就是技職學校所開的課並不是現在產業所需要的，現在產業需要什麼？你們是不是要彙整你們勞動部跟經濟部？"],["何部長佩珊：是，這是我們現在要去處理的重點……"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊，你們要去彙整啊，你們勞動部跟經濟部的需求是什麼，你們的要求是什麼，這樣才能真正在教育部的體系當中，在職系或是在技職的系所裡面有發揮的空間嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分到底什麼時候，部長，你可不可以給我們時間，我們每次如果沒有押時間，好像今天講完之後就不見了，這個檢討是不是可以在一個月內提出，讓我們知道到底經濟部跟勞動部現在盤整出來我們產業的需要是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然、當然。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後我們要怎麼回饋到教育部，在我們新的學年如何去統整新的系所，甚至跟產業合作，是不是有這樣的機會？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好不好？一個月。"],["何部長佩珊：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，謝謝喔！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員。","接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-6","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","徐巧芯","洪孟楷","林楚茵","陳亭妃","吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","廖偉翔","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林淑芬","羅廷瑋","李柏毅","劉建國","楊曜","陳瑩","吳春城","涂權吉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"請勞動部部長就「我國全時職位缺工概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139201_00004"}}},{"id":"156289","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156289","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adef9b3b059f089fa294d3d0b4a24d41de394934db31926c300854671cd304e1f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:49:52 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﹗"},{"start":220.043,"end":220.063,"text":"議員吳思瑤"},{"start":244.588,"end":269.258,"text":"我要回到剛剛講的立委都支持要有專業法院或是專業法庭就是為了幫助人民落實司法改革但是呢總預算我看了你們的預算書有一個新興計畫籌設北部少年級家家事法院的計畫新年度編了一億四千三百八十萬嘛"},{"start":270.461,"end":287.782,"text":"如果總預算沒有進入審查或是這筆預算因為沒有審查而持續的被阻卻在外這是新興計畫喔那怎麼辦這條沒辦法過我們北部少年級家事法院就沒有辦法來籌設那你們有什麼配套"},{"start":291.878,"end":310.014,"text":"還是你要對國會提出呼籲說這些目前外界非常需求的一個新的這個制度跟規劃也是大院要求我們要設是沒有錯那我們也承諾了但是相對這些經費當然希望都能夠儘速得到大院的這個支持"},{"start":310.114,"end":325.188,"text":"目前籌設北部少年少家法院是還找不到地嗎?還只是租的而已嗎?對不對?對 有一個中繼的地點大概在市里那一邊那接下來要成租 成租需要一些經費是 很好 所以我們在這裡對國會的在野黨的委員提出呼籲"},{"start":330.433,"end":347.139,"text":"因應雙北的少年相關的案件案量龐大逐年增加這也是符合立法院的要求司法院積極來籌設北部少年法、少家法院迫在眉睫不要因為據審總預算讓這珍貴的新興計畫一億四千三百八十萬在"},{"start":355.038,"end":357.042,"text":"還遠在天邊,好嗎?我們一起向國會來訴求當然民進黨作為執政黨我們全力努力來推進總預算的審查謝謝複密。下一頁"},{"start":367.355,"end":390.78,"text":"那針對這個釋憲的結果我還是有一些需要導正的議題今天來跟副秘書長來做討論立法院要維護憲法而不是違逆憲法當大法官給了我們清楚的指引社會也給了立法院一個重考補考的機會立院就來當違憲的更生人吧"},{"start":392.13,"end":412.606,"text":"我們來把做錯的事、修錯的法改回來吧!切莫成為違憲的累犯了!下一頁這是吳思瑤我本人這段時間對於遵守憲法、服從憲法法庭的宣判我的五大主張就教於父命第一停止詆毀攻擊大法官"},{"start":413.854,"end":437.469,"text":"第二、禁訴行使合憲的人事同意權第三、終止各項已經被設立的違憲的調閱委員會或調查小組第四、憲法訴訟法應該開公聽會但是切莫再以修法來凌駕憲法應當停止審查可能再次違憲的憲法訴訟法"},{"start":438.874,"end":450.159,"text":"最後一個依據釋憲的結果來啟動立法院職權行使法的修法朝野合作請問我這五大主張復密狀有什麼指證您同意嗎"},{"start":452.964,"end":452.984,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":475.811,"end":476.612,"text":"我們持續努力,下一頁。"},{"start":498.103,"end":509.32,"text":"但是很遺憾在野黨的委員似乎是不想要修法下一頁甚至有委員說沒有義務來遵守違憲的判決下一頁"},{"start":511.222,"end":533.815,"text":"這個我已經社會都會背了憲法78條立法院委員的行為法第三條跟釋字185號都告訴我們首先合法立委在大沒有人可以例外下一頁我這段時間去特別審視了這幾年來大法官解釋之後立法院啟動修法的時程如果以釋字585號"},{"start":535.436,"end":560.685,"text":"解釋出來之後立法院隨即的來重啟爭調會條例的修法我要呼喚2006年的國民黨的立法委員們那個時候民進黨是在立法院是少數但是國民黨基於國會多數的時候也遵守了釋字585號進行了爭調會條例的修法完成了13條下一頁"},{"start":564.713,"end":580.706,"text":"是自6月3日立法院也很快速的重啟NCC組織法把違憲的政治力升到NCC委員的產生的這個違憲的作為導正了我真的也懷念起2007年的國民黨國會多數那個時候的國民黨欸因為即便他們是國會多數他們也遵守憲法的解釋完成了NCC組織法的修訂下一頁"},{"start":594.119,"end":608.887,"text":" ﹗上一屆我已經在立法院的場域了。748號解釋之後同婚法案讓台灣成為世界進步的驕傲。亞洲第一個同婚法案的通過。那個時候社會壓力和其之大。"},{"start":609.807,"end":632.929,"text":"但是立法院不分黨派挺住壓力讓同婚法案可以三讀通過因應回應大法官的修憲我真的認為過去的國民黨做不到做得到過去的國民黨做得到現在的國民黨為什麼就不遵守憲法呢憲法只有一步"},{"start":633.97,"end":661.509,"text":"憲法沒有顏色不管誰在朝不管誰在也這都是立委修法的職責下一頁再下一頁第二個議題我很快主席將用一點點時間喔有國民黨的委員說現在要修公投法將公投覆決的範圍可以包括憲法法庭判決的結果請問這樣公投法的修法是不是再一次用修法來凌駕憲法了?傅敏"},{"start":663.363,"end":666.985,"text":"國民黨委員要做的是依據釋憲的結果啟動合憲的修法而不是在釋憲的結果之後不思悔改違憲上癮來加修惡法"},{"start":687.899,"end":716.281,"text":"二、修其他的法律包括公投法我舉例憲法78條很清楚的再次讓大家知道司法院解釋憲法解釋憲法是司法院的權利第二釋字185號我也不要再贅述很重要的公投法的第二條在全國性公投跟地方性公投都載明了依憲法的規定除憲法規定以外你"},{"start":716.681,"end":730.572,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":730.905,"end":751.356,"text":"所以我希望在野黨的委員要做的是依據事先的結果來導正現在立法院職權行使法違憲的地方而不是該修的法不修現在反而用想方設法去改修其他的法律要再一次來推翻憲法"},{"start":753.388,"end":775.978,"text":"憲法解釋就等同於憲法要修公投法用公投來取代憲法這也是中華民國憲法所不容唯一公投能夠介入的就是修憲的層次如果在野黨的委員對於現在的憲政有很多的運作不滿意那麼大家務實的來討論修憲"},{"start":779.019,"end":802.49,"text":"說:「修法不能凌駕修憲。」所以過去2006、2007或是2016、17的立法院都可以克遵憲法能夠來把釋憲結果之後完備法制過去的國民黨做得到2024的國民黨沒有道理做不到我也補充一句2016的時代力量的黃國昌委員做得到"},{"start":806.152,"end":834.865,"text":"依據釋字748號我們一起朝野合作修正定定了、定定了同婚法案時代力量的黃國昌做得到現在民眾黨的黃國昌立委也應當做得到憲法只有一步我們就是做好來行使立法委員的憲法忠誠義務這是我誠懇的呼籲副院長辛苦了我們持續後續還有很多的意見要就交於您謝謝"},{"start":836.366,"end":836.487,"text":"謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時50分）謝謝主席，有請副秘。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：剛剛聆聽了，莊瑞雄委員過去是律師出身，對於他對於稅務審理專法的很多提醒，我認為都值得討論，謝謝莊委員真的替我們示範了什麼叫做就法條論法條，很多部分我也被他說服，所以我非常支持未來在審議的過程，該開公聽會，我們願意開公聽會。但是我也要提醒，稍後要處理臨時提案，提案人黃國昌委員他說的也很正確，這樣一個制度變革，稅務處理的專法影響層面至深且遠，他認為要開公聽會，我們都支持，民進黨團的立場就是多元討論，這是我們一貫的立場。","所以同樣地也希望對於憲政制度影響至深且遠的憲法訴訟法，也請要開公聽會，我想我們立法院匯集更多的社會專業意見，有利於我們修法，立法的過程中，大家要一樣的標準，一樣的開放性的心胸，一樣的來擁抱多元的意見，不應當選擇性地來針對可以召開公聽會的議案才開公聽會，這樣就是雙標了。所以非常遺憾，有關憲法訴訟法，黃國昌委員或是國民黨籍的委員並沒有同意委員會層級召開公聽會，我認為稍後的臨時提案正是給黃國昌委員跟國民黨的委員們一個很好的思考機會，民進黨支持稅務審理專法可以開公聽會，藍白的委員也應當支持憲法訴訟法該開公聽會，同樣對於臺灣的法制影響至深且遠。","依據2016年立法院三讀通過的納稅者權利保護法，那個時候我沒有在司法及法制委員會，坦白講，要藉由授權進一步訂定稅務處理專法，我真的要多做功課。司改國是會議因應一個新修的法，也做出這樣的建議，要設置稅務法庭，強化法官的稅務專業能力。莊委員剛剛說得很好，這不是解決政府的問題，是要解決人民的需要，所以未來在設置稅務專業法庭的時候就要非常地嚴謹，對於專業的意見，不能偏廢。立法目的跟我們要解決的這些長年的問題，譬如萬年稅單，這些問題我都認為該解決，只是要更細緻，思考更多。相關的部分就是我想要檢視現在我們設置的專業法院或是法庭，我們現在的專業法院包括各級的行政法院，包括有了高雄少年及家事法院，也有了智慧財產及商業法院，都是與時俱進，我們讓司法更改革，我們讓所有的審議更有品質，落實專業性，所以設了專業法院。同樣地，在民事訴訟、刑事訴訟跟行政訴訟上，我們這幾年來透過努力，也設置了更多的專業法庭、專股，這都是對的方向，讓司法跟得上時代，因應多元的時代變遷需求。","但是我要回到剛剛講的，立委都支持要有專業法院或是專業法庭，就是為了幫助人民落實司法改革，但是總預算的部分，我看了你們的預算書，有一個新興計畫是籌設北部少年及家事法院的計畫，新年度編了1億4,380萬，如果總預算沒有進入審查，或是這筆預算因為沒有審查而持續地被阻卻在外，這是新興計畫，那怎麼辦？這條沒辦法過，我們的北部少年及家事法院就沒有辦法來籌設，你們有什麼配套？還是你要對國會提出呼籲？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們當然希望這些目前外界非常有需求的新的制度跟規劃，也是大院要求我們要設的……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒有錯。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們也承諾了，但是相對地，這些經費當然希望都能夠儘速得到大院的支持。"],["吳委員思瑤：目前籌設北部少家法院還找不到地，只是租的而已嘛，對不對？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，有一個中繼的地點大概在士林那一邊，接下來要承租，承租需要一些經費。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，很好。所以我們在這裡對國會的在野黨委員提出呼籲，因應雙北的少年相關案件案量龐大，逐年增加，這也是符合立法院的要求，司法院積極來籌設北部少家法院，迫在眉睫，不要因為拒審總預算，讓這珍貴的新興計畫1億4,380萬還遠在天邊，好嗎？我們一起向國會來訴求，當然民進黨作為執政黨，我們全力努力來推進總預算的審查，謝謝副秘。","接下來，針對釋憲的結果，我還是有一些需要導正的議題，今天來跟副秘書長做討論。立法院要維護憲法，而不是違逆憲法，當大法官給了我們清楚的指引，社會也給了立法院一個重考、補考的機會，立院就來當違憲的更生人吧，我們來把做錯的事、修錯的法改回來吧！切莫成為違憲的累犯。","下一頁是吳思瑤我本人這段時間，對於遵守憲法、服從憲法法庭的宣判，我的五大主張，就教於副秘：第一，停止詆毀攻擊大法官；第二，儘速行使合憲的人事同意權；第三，終止各項已經被設立的違憲的調閱委員會或調查小組；第四，憲法訴訟法應該開公聽會，但是切莫再以修法來凌駕憲法，應當停止審查可能再次違憲的憲法訴訟法；最後一個，依據釋憲的結果來啟動立法院職權行使法的修法，朝野合作。請問我這五大主張，副秘書長有什麼指正？您同意嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，有一些部分當然是大院的職權，我們當然尊重，當然我們站在司法行政的立場，希望大家都能夠尊重憲法法庭的裁判，當然也期盼能夠讓我們司法院的後續運作能夠順利，因為我們院長的任期就到明天……"],["吳委員思瑤：人事同意權是迫在眉睫。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：希望能夠及時產生，讓我們司法院後續很多的業務，包含剛才委員所垂詢到的一些政策，我們都需要新的首長來推動、指示，所以我們當然是希望能夠順利產生。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，好，我們持續努力。但是很遺憾，在野黨的委員似乎是不想要修法，甚至有委員說沒有義務遵守違憲的判決。這個社會都會背了，憲法第七十八條、立法院委員行為法第三條跟釋字第185號都告訴我們，守憲合法，立委再大，沒有人可以例外。","我這段時間特別去審視了這幾年來大法官解釋之後，立法院啟動修法的時程，如果以釋字第585號解釋出來之後，立法院隨即重啟真調會條例的修法，我要呼喚2006年的國民黨的立法委員們，那個時候民進黨在立法院是少數，但是國民黨基於國會多數的時候，也遵守了釋字第585號，進行了真調會條例的修法，完成了13條條文的修正。","釋字第613號，立法院也很快速地重啟NCC組織法，把政治力升到NCC委員產生的這個違憲作為導正了，我真的也懷念起2007年國會多數那個時候的國民黨，因為即便他們是國會多數，他們也遵守憲法的解釋，完成了NCC組織法的修訂。","上一屆我已經在立法院的場域了，第748號解釋之後，同婚法案讓臺灣成為世界進步的驕傲，亞洲第一個同婚法案的通過，那個時候社會壓力何其之大！但是立法院不分黨派挺住壓力，讓同婚法案可以三讀通過，因應、回應大法官的修憲，我真的認為，過去的國民黨做得到，現在的國民黨為什麼就不遵守憲法呢？憲法只有一部，憲法沒有顏色，不管誰在朝，不管誰在野，這都是立委修法的職責。","第二個議題，主席，我很快，再占用一點點時間。有國民黨委員說，現在要修公投法，將公投複決的範圍可以包括憲法法庭判決的結果，請問這樣公投法的修法，是不是再一次用修法來凌駕憲法了？副秘。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這部分我們做司法行政的立場，我不敢講說這個……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，你不好評論。","最後，我以這一頁來呼籲，國民黨委員要做的是，依據釋憲的結果，啟動合憲的修法，而不是在釋憲的結果之後，不思悔改、違憲上癮、加修惡法、惡修其他的法律包括公投法。我舉例，憲法第七十八條很清楚地再次讓大家知道，司法院解釋憲法，解釋憲法是司法院的權力；第二，釋字第185號，我也不要再贅述；很重要的，公投法第二條，在全國性公投跟地方性公投都載明了，除了依憲法規定外，全國性公投可以適用哪些事項，地方性公投可以處理的範圍有什麼，公投法第二條也告訴我們，公投也不能違反憲法，所以我希望在野黨委員要做的，是依據釋憲的結果來導正現在立法院職權行使法違憲的地方，而不是該修的法不修，現在反而又想方設法去改修其他的法律要再次來推翻憲法。","憲法解釋就等同於憲法，要修公投法，用公投來取代憲法，這也是中華民國憲法所不容，唯一公投能夠介入的就是修憲的層次，如果在野黨的委員對於現在的憲政有很多的運作不滿意，那麼大家務實的來討論修憲。修法不能凌駕修憲，所以過去2006、2007或是2016、2017的立法院，都可以恪遵憲法，能夠在釋憲結果出來之後完備法制。過去的國民黨做得到，2024的國民黨沒有道理做不到。我也補充一句，2016時代力量的黃國昌委員做得到依據釋字第748號，我們一起朝野合作，訂定了同婚法案，時代力量的黃國昌做得到，現在民眾黨的黃國昌立委也應當做得到。","憲法只有一部，我們就是做好行使立法委員的憲法忠誠義務，這是我誠懇地呼籲。副秘書長辛苦了，我們後續還有很多的意見要就教於您，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員思瑤，謝謝黃副秘書長。現在我們來處理臨時提案，共1案，宣讀後再進行處理。請宣讀。","我國稅務救濟制度長年飽受批評，行政法院過度偏袒稅捐機關，人民難以獲得應有之公平裁決，嚴重侵害人民基本權。立法院司法及法制委員會審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案，該草案以專法形式變更稅務行政訴訟制度，並設置稅務審查官、賦予當事人及第三人協力義務、排除當事人及第三人不自證己罪之原則、擴大律師強制代理範圍，影響層面至深且遠。","司法院雖於2024年8月12日舉辦「稅務行政事件審理法草案公聽會」，惟參與該公聽會73名代表僅有5名民間代表，且司法院未上網公開直播與會議紀錄，僅於會後發出新聞稿，淪為過水之政策宣導，如此黑箱作業恐難服眾。","為求審慎，爰建請司法及法制委員會於本案逐條審查前，舉辦公聽會廣納各界意見，邀請相關專家學者及民間團體共同集思廣益，以確保立法之周延。","提案人：黃國昌　　羅智強　　翁曉玲　　謝龍介"],["主席：請問提案委員有無補充說明？（無）沒有其他補充說明；針對臨時提案，請問機關有無其他意見或說明？這是臨時提案，因為是對本委員會的建議……"],["吳委員思瑤：還是我先發言？"],["主席：請吳委員發言。"],["吳委員思瑤：我非常同意，立法院在任何的法案審議之前，都應當好好來踐行民主討論的程序，所以針對稅務行政事件審理法草案，由委員會來召開公聽會，我當然都支持。如同提案人黃國昌委員所說的，這一個專法影響層面至深且遠，民進黨團的立場一致，我們支持可以開，但是也在這裡提請、呼籲提案人黃國昌委員，連署人羅智強委員、翁曉玲委員、謝龍介委員，希望大家能夠比照同樣的標準，影響層面至深且遠的，除了稅務行政事件審理法之外，憲法訴訟法影響臺灣的憲政運作至深且遠，為什麼憲法訴訟法沒有辦法在委員會召開公聽會呢？所以針對這樣子的提案，我們支持公聽會該開就開，但我還是要呼籲，憲法訴訟法的公聽會還來得及補正程序，希望有加入A案連署的委員也能來支持B案，否則就是雙標，好嗎？","明天委員會被迫召開的，並不是委員會層級的公聽會，我想立委要清楚我們的作業，委員會層級的公聽會因為國民黨委員的總召傅崐萁委員拒絕簽字，似乎黃國昌總召對於他已經簽字的同意召開，現在又反悔、有不同意見，以至於明天的公聽會就不是具比較高效力的委員會層級公聽會，我覺得非常遺憾，所以我支持這個提案，公聽會我們該開就開，任何的法案都要是同樣的標準，讓多元對話可以在立法院被踐行。"],["主席：好，謝謝。在翁委員發言之前，我請教一下機關代表，司法院8月12號開的會，你們是叫公聽會還是研修會？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：公聽會。"],["主席：公聽會，好，OK。請翁委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想身為立法委員，應該要了解立法院各個委員會的議事規則。剛剛吳思瑤委員說，上次委員會沒有召開公聽會，他可能已經搞不清楚。委員會已經審查過這個條文，條文通過之後，委員會本來就不可以再開公聽會，如果可以再開公聽會的話，那為什麼你們還要去政黨協商，還要找黨團的總召們再去簽協議？所以要討論這件事情，也要把議事規則弄清楚，要開公聽會，你們隨時都可以開公聽會啊！你們民進黨的委員不是明天就要召開公聽會啦！你們愛辦幾場就辦幾場，但是用委員會的名義來辦，基本上是要在這個法案還沒有討論之前。如果已經討論了，送出委員會了，基本上是沒有義務一定要辦公聽會。"],["主席：好，請莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席還有在場的委員，其實我很不想爭辯這一些，但是翁委員這樣講是錯的啦！因為上次到底要不要召開公聽會，以你現在講的，就是草案送出去以後，到最後就又沒辦法開公聽會，當初就是在討論這個，才說一定要先開公聽會，所以不要把話顛倒過來講。","至於今天這個提案，我認為是涉及到整個稅務行政審理的訴訟過程裡面要站在哪一方，法律的設計上是要增加在行政訴訟的時候，讓法官的審理更具備專業性，這當然是好事，但是確實也會涉及到我剛質詢的時候提到的所謂武器的不平等，還有過去長期以來，稅務人員都太忠於這個國家，這也都好事，但畢竟這是一個訴訟制度，要注重到雙方、兩造，所以這些人員的組成倒不是位階的問題，倒是從哪一個地方來的問題。剛剛副秘也提到，確實司法院如果有餘力的話，就這些人才庫，應該從他們自己本身、從自己的機關裡面產生，所以針對召開這樣一個公聽會的提案，我表示贊成。"],["主席：好，目前沒有其他反對意見，我先請問機關代表，有沒有其他的意見或說明？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，召開公聽會這點我們當然尊重，只是提案第二段寫到「司法院雖於2024年8月12日舉辦……公聽會」，「惟參與……僅有5民間代表」，最後說我們是黑箱跟過水的政策宣傳，我覺得這部分可能有點誤解……"],["莊委員瑞雄：刪掉就好了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：建議可不可以不要有這些敘述？就直接接「為求審慎」這段？也就是為求審慎，再次召開。"],["主席：我說明一下。這個臨時提案是要求本委員會召開公聽會，基本上跟其他機關無涉。既然機關代表有這樣的看法，請問其他委員同不同意第二段修正？吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：我基本上同意，就是第一段跟第三段完整地把為什麼提這個法案？把立法院司法及法制委員會的委員們，不管是提案人或其他委員們為什麼都同意的理由放在第一段；至於第二段就是為求審議，我們要求廣納各界意見。有關中間這樣子的……我覺得司法院副秘書長講的，我非常同意，不用對人家這樣指涉。","我要講回來的是，今天為什麼要開這場……我們都同意開，因為它關乎稅務行政事件審理法，這是訴訟制度的革新，所以是訴訟制度上的配套要完備，強化行政法院的審理權限，建立訴訟上的配套措施，破除萬年稅單的問題。然後設置稅務審查官，強化審查效能，所以我們要審這個法、要開公聽會，都是要完備其訴訟制度。","同樣的，我再講回來，憲法訴訟法也是完備訴訟制度，而不是造成憲法法庭訴訟制度的崩壞或者是癱瘓，所以我不想針對程序上……剛剛翁委員講的足以驗證你們國民黨委員在上週審查憲法訴訟法，你們從頭到尾的政治意圖就是強行討論、快轉通過；通過之後，連公聽會都不能開，你剛剛說的就足以知道、足以驗證，這就是遂行你們害怕公聽會討論的作法。所以你剛剛講的就是你們所做的事情，不要現在來指鹿為馬，開公聽會不要雙標！我再一次懇求呼籲，如果未來還有機會，雖然明天司法及法制委員會被迫只能用個別委員的名義來召開，但委員會層級的憲法訴訟法，同樣攸關訴訟制度，那就是要來開。"],["主席：謝謝。本題是本委員會要不要開公聽會？聽起來大家都同意。就剛剛的部分，大家認為第二段有沒有必要保留？請謝委員。"],["謝委員龍介：第二段保留，但後面「淪為過水之政策宣導，如此黑箱作業恐難服眾」改成「僅於會後發出新聞稿恐難服眾」，就這樣子，其他就不用講太多。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員。"],["謝委員龍介：賣花的講花紅，賣茶的講茶香，如果想在政治鬥爭上贏你們民進黨，我想沒有幾個人在行。不要每次都這樣，你兒子放屁是在長大，別人的兒子放屁就說人家腸子爛，不要這樣啦！就兩套標準來說，國民黨跟不上民進黨，以上修正。"],["主席：好。這樣的修正大家同不同意？可以？我們依討論後之修正文字通過，謝謝。","我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時14分）","繼續開會（11時31分）"],["主席：繼續開會。現在有請賴委員士葆發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},{"id":"156288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126ade095601d7c6cb7065325639a1896b059d94934db31926c30033c073854302364d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:51:30 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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T10:51:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T11:02:08+08:00","duration":638,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.704718750000001,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.025343750000001,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.122218750000002,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.38659375,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.399093750000002,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.42846875,"end":73.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.33596875,"end":119.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.58596875,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.62784375000001,"end":126.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.45846875000001,"end":151.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.92284375,"end":161.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.13221875000002,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.07659375,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.83096875,"end":173.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.10096875000002,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.25284375,"end":218.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.61284375000002,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.04721875,"end":256.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.26096875,"end":258.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.31159375000004,"end":256.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.73346875000004,"end":257.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.31971875,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.78784375000004,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.80471875,"end":259.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.96909375,"end":292.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.61034375,"end":289.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.27221875000004,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.44846875,"end":336.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.21971875,"end":331.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.87284375,"end":341.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.95659375,"end":340.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.99034375,"end":341.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":341.29409375,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.78346875,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":341.95221875000004,"end":342.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.10409375,"end":399.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.12471875,"end":402.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.29721875,"end":413.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.45159375000003,"end":449.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.42909375000005,"end":500.40846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.89909375,"end":493.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.03721875,"end":500.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.40846875000005,"end":523.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.1684687500001,"end":524.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.7422187500001,"end":526.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.6828437500001,"end":530.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":530.8003437500001,"end":532.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":541.85346875,"end":546.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.94471875,"end":552.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":553.0078437500001,"end":576.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":577.25721875,"end":591.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":591.33096875,"end":606.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":607.1428437500001,"end":622.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":622.4822187500001,"end":638.27721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":11.339,"text":"委員質詢。主席好,有請部長。委員好。"},{"start":21.665,"end":40.348,"text":"部長早安。我想實質今日台灣已經是一個非常自由民主的一個國家了。英國的經濟學人其實他們在二月的時候其實特別在公布這個2023年全球167個國家台灣全球排名第十是亞洲第一"},{"start":41.649,"end":44.752,"text":"另外在國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度的報告。台灣名列前茅是自由的國家。我們是亞洲第二,僅次於日本。"},{"start":56.425,"end":61.627,"text":"此外,中國再度被列為不自由的國家。我想大家都覺得台灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像垂手可得,像呼吸一樣的自然。但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘。我想今天其實我們在討論這個不義遺址的部分,我們可能前面我們先把台灣民主自由是怎麼過來的,我們簡略的真的來回顧一下。"},{"start":85.018,"end":107.24,"text":"二二八事件1947年其實當時統計被殺就是被這個屠害的人民就是平民呢從2000到25000人之間那之後的白色恐怖那當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕那甚至有1200人以上"},{"start":109.282,"end":134.421,"text":"是被處決那包含我自己的這個阿公內輩的親戚朋友那曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔一排人跪著他們的背後呢是手是被鐵絲一串一串這樣一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決的那這個其實都是我們這一代"},{"start":134.98,"end":143.443,"text":"我們沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的一個事件那我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講就是說這個不義遺址這個名稱啊或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的這個日治時代的部分"},{"start":152.346,"end":164.038,"text":"但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下既然是不義遺址我們是把它定義為就是在228事件還有台灣的白色恐怖的這個時期對吧"},{"start":167.13,"end":169.992,"text":"不是覺得從中華民國、民國34年到台灣的這個時間算起。那其實他當年講的就是在黨國體制下,國民黨政府他是如何侵害人權。那不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點,包含刑求、包含審判、包含刑刑的一個地方。"},{"start":193.492,"end":197.655,"text":"當然其實2017年其實我們在提這個所謂的轉型正義的時候我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生的地點我們來做一個盤點這個叫做不義遺址那我想呢這個唯有面對誠實的面對歷史我們台灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由民主健康的一個國家我想部長應該也同意吧"},{"start":220.97,"end":234.759,"text":"我們知道其實全台灣現在已經目前有審定公告有42處的這個不義遺址那其中跟228事件相關的有25處白色恐怖的事件大概相近有17處那麼其餘呢預計這個64處的潛在的不義遺址的公告呢會在"},{"start":239.682,"end":257.402,"text":"一百一十五年可能會完成就是完成整個所有的公告那相關的這個作業的規範還有這個人力我們是不是有逐步的到位那目前為止部長所掌握的這個盤點的這個進度大概是如何可以跟我們報告一下嗎這一點我想請陳辦大會報告一下好"},{"start":261.144,"end":282.011,"text":"我們現在對於這個不義遺址有潛在的不義遺址我們現在一個進行的在專法還沒有通過之前我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址進行現刊然後預先的討論他的這些個案資料等到專法通過之後我們會加速審議公告的這個作業那另外在我們人權管也做了很多的一些推廣的活動"},{"start":283.572,"end":307.911,"text":"再來我們也在審議的過程當中也諮詢了很多學者專家的意見未來我們的推廣作業都會參著他們意見加速的進行好,那我想這個不義遺址要怎麼樣來保存怎麼樣來活化怎麼樣運用這樣子的一個不義遺址成為我們的歷史的一個教材其實真的也非常的重要但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的一個態度相關"},{"start":308.792,"end":323.161,"text":"那這個部分是不是我們的部會跟這個地方政府的有沒有取得一些共識或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善的對話然後來取得共識然後把不義遺址這樣子來做一個保存的一個政策目前跟地方政府的溝通的狀況如何"},{"start":325.452,"end":342.278,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":342.779,"end":357.155,"text":"我剛剛特別有提到就是針對這個不義遺址的這個保存活化的一個方式其實第10條有特別明定我們將設置一些歷史的標誌或者是我們的這個侵害人權的事件的一個解說甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址的這個線上3D的環境的這樣子的一個導覽"},{"start":362.961,"end":383.509,"text":"我記得其實在112年到114年其實我們想說文化要向下扎根所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算大概是2.45億我想這個公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去然後到其他的相關的文化的一些場域"},{"start":385.65,"end":404.78,"text":"來做一些對自己的歷史或者是對自己的一個本土的文化的一個認同。那我想在這個部分如果文化部是不是有在我們的校園人權的這個議題有沒有納入到我們的一些課綱或者是現在已經有納入課綱像我知道像這個高雄大學這個校長他也特別率隊"},{"start":405.52,"end":406.761,"text":"：立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":430.461,"end":431.202,"text":"不義遺址保存條例草案案"},{"start":449.471,"end":473.802,"text":"有,這個部分反而是我們人選館做最多的。我們設計過好幾套教材,然後讓學校來借。有些教材是可以借半年、一年。然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽,也請學校的學生來參觀。也有當時真正受害者,比如說陳烈,他現場也是一個導覽員。"},{"start":475.703,"end":499.677,"text":"還有一個校園的列車開到校園去還有辦人權營長等等我來之後我還希望那個人權營長可以辦得更大型就讓我們的那個人權館有一個比較標的性的活動就是大型的人權營長等等我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極我是事後可以給你一個很完整的報告"},{"start":501.078,"end":524.947,"text":"謝謝部長。我想這個不義遺址的維護、不義遺址的保存跟不義遺址提醒我們台灣的民主歷史的本土的這個怎麼樣進程的一個過程其實是對我們來講誠實的面對歷史我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家。我想這個也是我們真的要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。謝謝。謝謝郭委員。"},{"start":527.275,"end":528.195,"text":"有請部長跟館長,人權管館長。有請部長跟館長。"},{"start":552.16,"end":573.279,"text":"財委員您好。部長好。就是說其實我過去在民間也參與非常多的轉型正義的一些導讀。那我也曾經申請過這個人權管的補助。那我今天就想要針對人權管的補助先來做一個請教。就是說我們可以看到人權管的補助從跟2021年相比我們的預算是整整少了將近是800萬。"},{"start":578.344,"end":606.39,"text":"今年應該是跟2024年跟2021年相比喔,真正少的是800萬那我也看見我們的補助案量其實是變多了就變成是說我們的案件平均補助的金額其實是下降的那我自己其實也看了這些去得到補助案的類型喔,其實非常的廣泛從戲劇類啦,到展覽類啊,其實有非常多元但是我也有聽到團體跟我說喔,過去他可以拿50萬,現在他直接砍一半"},{"start":607.716,"end":621.441,"text":"所以如果說我們今天在講不義遺址他需要做一些保存啊他需要做一些推廣啊可是我們的金額不管是整體的補助經費就是下降案件也下降那到底要如何來去執行呢我想請教就是說"},{"start":622.631,"end":638.114,"text":"我們現在如果去看下面人權管的整體預算其實2025年跟2021年相比也增增少了7000多萬但是我們今年明明文化部是增加了預算我們增加了17%的預算那為什麼我們的人權管反而少了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":395,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時51分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長早安。我想時至今日臺灣已經是一個非常自由民主的國家了，英國的經濟學人在2月的時候其實特別公布2023年，全球167個國家，臺灣全球排名第十，是亞洲第一。另外國際人權組織自由之家也在2024年做了一個全球性的自由度報告，臺灣名列前茅，是自由的國家，我們是亞洲第二，僅次於日本，相對來講，中國再度被列為不自由的國家。我想大家都覺得臺灣民主自由走到今天這一步好像唾手可得，像呼吸一樣自然，但其實我們的過往真的不能遺忘。我想今天其實我們在討論不義遺址的部分，我們可能前面先把臺灣民主自由是怎麼過來的，我們簡略地真的來回顧一下啦！二二八事件，1947年，其實當時統計被殺、被屠害的人民，就是平民，從2,000到2萬5,000人之間，之後的白色恐怖當然也有許多人因為反政府而被捕，甚至有1,200人以上是被處決，包含我自己的阿公那一輩的親戚朋友，曾經他們也目睹了在淡水河畔，一排人跪著，手被鐵絲串著，一整串跪在淡水河畔被槍決，這個其實都是我們這一代沒有辦法想像當年的整個所有的事件。我剛剛聽到很多的委員一直在講，就是說不義遺址這個名稱，或者是說我們要把時間再拉到更遠的所謂的日治時代的部分，但是我在這裡其實我也要跟部長說一下，既然是不義遺址，我們是把它定義為就是在二二八事件還有臺灣的白色恐怖的這個時期，對吧？"],["李部長遠：我是覺得從中華民國民國34年到臺灣的這個時間算起。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，其實它當年講的就是在黨國體制下，國民黨政府是如何侵害人權，不義遺址就是這些侵害人權實際事證明確的發生地點，包含刑求、包含審判、包含行刑的地方，當然2017年其實我們在提所謂的轉型正義的時候，我們當然也把這些所謂的證據度、完整度高、明確的發生地點來做一個盤點，這個叫做不義遺址，我想唯有誠實地面對歷史，我們臺灣才能夠成為一個真的真正的自由、民主、健康的國家，我想部長應該也同意吧？"],["李部長遠：當然同意。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們知道其實全臺灣目前已經審定公告有42處的不義遺址，其中跟二二八事件相關的有25處，白色恐怖的事件大概將近有17處，其餘預計64處的潛在不義遺址的公告115年可能會完成，就是完成整個所有的公告，相關作業的規範還有人力，我們是不是有逐步地到位，目前為止部長所掌握的盤點進度大概是如何，可以跟我們報告一下嗎？"],["李部長遠：這一點我想請承辦單位報告一下。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["陳局長濟民：我們現在對於潛在的不義遺址，在專法還沒有通過之前，我們用預審的制度先去這些不義遺址現勘，然後預先討論它的個案資料，等到專法通過之後，我們會加速審議公告的作業；另外一個，我們人權館也做了很多的推廣活動；再來，我們也在審議的過程當中諮詢了很多學者專家的意見，未來我們的推廣作業也都會參酌他們的意見加速進行。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想要怎麼樣來保存、怎麼樣來活化、怎麼樣運用這樣子的不義遺址成為我們歷史的一個教材，其實真的也非常重要。但是其實我們剛剛聽到有許多是跟地方政府他們本身對於不義遺址的態度相關，這個部分我們的部會跟地方政府有沒有取得一些共識，或者是我們要怎麼樣跟他們友善地對話，取得共識，然後來做不義遺址保存的政策？目前跟地方政府的溝通狀況如何？"],["陳局長濟民：我們想我們會就個案來看，因為目前這個法的主管機關只有文化部，都是文化部來，當然這裡會涉及到一些地方的相關事務，那我們會個案來協調。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，關於個案的協調，如果有一些新的進展，也麻煩提供給我們辦公室，可以嗎？"],["陳局長濟民：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我剛剛特別有提到，就是針對不義遺址的保存活化的方式，其實第十條有特別明定，我們將設置一些歷史的標誌，或者是侵害人權事件的解說，甚至我們可能也會辦所謂的不義遺址線上3D環景的導覽。我記得其實在112年到114年，其實我們講說文化要向下扎根，所以其實我們這邊也編列了預算，大概是2.45億，我想公務預算其實在鼓勵很多的學生能夠從校園走出去，到其他相關的文化場域來做一些來對自己的歷史或者是對自己的本土文化的認同，我想在這個部分，文化部有沒有把人權的議題納入一些課綱，或者是現在已經有納入課綱，像我知道高雄大學校長特別率隊，做了一個類似有點像線上遊戲的方式，納入了一個課綱，在9月份推出線上說明的時候其實也獲得很多人的好評，就是我們是以那個故事性的主角，是1949年海軍的白色恐怖案來做這樣的主題，但是這個是線上，把它拉到了實際的不義遺址的部分，我們在文化往下扎根的部分，不是也能夠讓很多學生了解自己本身在不管是戶外的教學上對臺灣本土的認同，我們在不義遺址的這個部分有沒有相關的一些規劃？"],["李部長遠：有，這個部分反而是我們人權館做最多的，我們設計過好幾套教材，然後讓學校來借，有些教材是可以借半年、一年；然後我們本身也不斷地在現場辦講座或者辦展覽，也請學校的學生來參觀，也有當時真正的受害者，譬如說陳列，他現場也是一個導覽員；然後還有一個校園列車開到校園去；還有辦人權影展等等，我來之後我還希望人權影展可以辦得更大型，就讓我們的人權館有一個比較標的性的活動，就是大型的人權影展等等，我想這個部分我們人權館做得非常積極，我事後可以給你一個很完整的報告。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。我想不義遺址的維護、不義遺址的保存，跟不義遺址提醒我們臺灣民主歷史的、本土的的一個進程，對我們來講，其實誠實的面對歷史，我們才能夠真正成為健康的國家，我想這個也是我們要維護不義遺址最重要的一個目的，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：謝謝郭委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","高金素梅","翁曉玲","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；二、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺\n址保存條例草案」案；三、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；五、審查委員蔡易餘等18人\n擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案；六、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」\n案；七、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00001"}}},{"id":"156287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adec75d9daba43a29ab3b480ede9050f16a94934db31926c300a5c4e5b55e05ac0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:54:40 - 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董事長你聽不懂我的意思我講的是現在當然不是衰退是現在他目前他還在"},{"start":649.511,"end":669.546,"text":"曾定丹他是我們在整個經濟狀況還OK的傳產那這些傳產他面臨的問題是當他在目前的狀況之下他的趴數是如此當然不是累進啊可是他到了某一個坡度他就會往上跳"},{"start":670.265,"end":689.922,"text":"我跟委員報告就是在電價的調整上這幾年來的調整其實狀況是大概看得到一個調整的協律沒有,董事長基本上我們最近會得到那麼多產業的一個聲音你們是不是應該要去成立一個平台"},{"start":690.723,"end":715.6,"text":"去協助所有傳產他在整個用電的狀況否則他絕對不敢去接電他要說他不敢接電的大我跟委員報告那個部長已經一再指示我們要做這件事我們會來做這件事並沒有啊並沒有啊就並沒有啊報告委員這個我們要趕快加緊速度啦我們是方向方法都有啦那我們現在就是執行力要提高"},{"start":716.62,"end":733.847,"text":"所以你這個平台都沒有出來?傳展現在就對於說．中小微企業上面我們利用這一次的數位化還有深度節能這兩個方式這個雙軸引擎下去可以幫助提高競爭力"},{"start":734.867,"end":752.014,"text":"你說的智慧化對他們來講不是數位化我們幫助他說才有辦法智慧化數位化跟智慧化你這個部分要什麼時候去達到讓他們可以管控然後第二個你說要節能"},{"start":752.894,"end":767.982,"text":"說真的要解的空間實在不大你應該去了解所有的傳產傳產的狀況他們其實每一次配合你們的所謂要一趴調整一趴調整大家是有夠辛苦的但是又要接訂單"},{"start":769.543,"end":788.687,"text":"然後又沒有辦法得到我們政府關愛的眼神你說傳產請問你們用了多少力量在關心傳產並沒有這個我們現在這個組織上面當然有調整所以我們會要求實際上面在執行力上面要看到成果我發現我會落實要求這個中小企業署跟這個產發署"},{"start":794.584,"end":807.15,"text":"實際去落實這個計畫部長一個月一個月讓我們看到你做出什麼樣的起步我不敢要求說看到成果啦起步你到底對於傳產這一個所謂輔導光這個電光這個電喔"},{"start":812.472,"end":812.712,"text":"是,是"},{"start":842.512,"end":843.893,"text":"我可以了解：陳亭妃一個月：陳亭妃那個平台先建立起來怎麼去協助所有傳產在整個所謂數位化"},{"start":859.299,"end":876.792,"text":"還有節能的部分怎麼去做處理?怎麼做處理?沒有可是你們做的節能都是那種很表面象徵的你們並沒有了解各個產業的需要這才是最嚴重的你都只是叫大家照本宣科然後從我們的電腦當中然後寫書面"},{"start":880.154,"end":901.507,"text":"用書面這不對的產業的需要每個產業別他有不同的需要還有每個產業別有不同的一個狀況是委員你講的所指導的我完全能夠了解我也是這樣要求我的部署如果一個月內沒有看到成績那我會換掉這個部署"},{"start":903.168,"end":923.253,"text":"拜託部長讓傳產有信心啊大家都覺得我們現在好像每個眼光都在我們高科技護國神山護國神山很重要可是如果沒有這些傳產單為基底台灣的經濟也沒有辦法穩住啊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時41分）謝謝召委，我們請部長還有水利署賴署長。"],["主席：請郭部長還有賴署長。"],["郭部長智輝：陳委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。部長，針對57年來首個11月登陸的秋颱，我們的防災準備就位了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部大概開過兩次準備會議了。"],["陳委員亭妃：你認為都準備好了嗎？這是57年來首個11月登陸的秋颱。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，水跟電應該都準備好。"],["陳委員亭妃：水跟電都沒有問題了。好，水的部分，從地方到中央的責任，我們都劃分清楚了嗎？比方說誰要負責什麼。"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請水利署長來跟你報告？"],["賴署長建信：這個部分都已經有明確的分工，而且我們在禮拜一的時候，都已跟地方政府產生橫向的聯繫。"],["陳委員亭妃：確定嗎？"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們都在基層，署長你也很清楚，只要是有颱風，我們幾乎都在基層跑，我常常也都直接跟署長要求說，哪邊需要來做協助，然後我們的抽水機應該怎麼去配置、怎麼去幫忙，我相信署長應該接過很多通我的電話，包括第六河川局等等，所以當在基層跑的時候，我們發現一個問題，從凱米颱風來的時候，當時候也是一瞬間完全風雲變色，所以第一線所有抽水機的調度，地方跟中央在配置上該怎麼分工？"],["賴署長建信：第一個部分，地方當然擁有它的抽水機，除此之外，我們中央也會有，我在禮拜一的時候也跟我們第六河川分署……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然地方跟中央都要有啊！可是我為什麼會用這個問題來質詢署長，就地方的權責跟中央的權責，還有整個大排、中排、小排，那個系統是不一樣的；抽水機有小台、有中台、有大台，可是你知道嗎？就我們在凱米颱風第一線的經驗，是我們根本調不到抽水機啊！為什麼調不到抽水機？因為都被搶光，然後排水系統的部分，我們好不容易跟中央調到抽水機，結果太大了，那個孔裝不進去啊！所以我一直在說，地方跟中央在權責上，在第一時間是不是可以救急？我們的小排、中排、大排，整個抽水管路的大小口徑，是不是能夠符合我們抽水機的需求？誰在做這個調度？誰在做這個分配？"],["賴署長建信：我們中央應變中心都會有一個統一的調度，凱米的時候確實因為災情相當的嚴峻，所以我們從全國各地調抽水機到南部去、到地方去，但是這些的數量跟尺寸的部分，我們在動員之前，會跟地方去確認需求，但是有時候在災點的回報上，它只有回報說，就它的淹水需要一個抽水機，所以這個部分我們還是需要時間，包括抽水機什麼時候會到、什麼尺寸會到，這個我們會再次的確認。"],["陳委員亭妃：誰在做這個掌控？之前的凱米就已經發生這個狀態了，我為什麼一直強調，這是57年來首個11月登陸的秋颱，它的狀況有可能會更慘，而且瞬間的影響會更大，所以我們怎麼樣記取過去從凱米得到的教訓，並以此做調合，如第一時間抽水機誰在掌控？第二，第一線的口徑為何？如果口徑沒有處理好，就算運到現場，也是浪費人力、浪費精力。甚至如果需要在第一時間過去的話是不是可以救急，又能得到比較萬全的協助？今天如果把大的抽水機運到現場卻不能用，不僅浪費時間，也浪費了第一時間可以預防的狀態？"],["賴署長建信：是，謝謝委員提點。這些部分我們在凱米之後都進行了相關的改善工作。中央應變中心在今天上午5點30分已經一級開設；至於抽水機的調度、包括管線部分，以及如何避免康芮颱風對我們造成比較嚴重的威脅，我們都有盤點。除此之外，現在抽水機預布的內水熱點部分，也參考了過去凱米淹水的點，但不會採取跟凱米之前一樣的作法，我們會再精進……"],["陳委員亭妃：凱米的瞬間雨量從百年洪水位變成兩百年洪水位，但從凱米到現在，馬上就改變所有的抽水系統或排水系統嗎？那是不可能的！所以我們只能用救急的方式準備好、備位好，也就是抽水系統如何能在第一時間達到效果……"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：這才是我們要的！所以拜託署長，再盤整一下凱米來襲時沒有辦法到位的問題，這不只中央，地方也要拉緊神經。我剛剛問中央、地方的權責劃分好了嗎？你們很用心在做，但如果地方鬆懈不管，也是沒有用啊！"],["賴署長建信：我們在今天的應變會議裡會再通知地方加強。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分再拜託一下！特別是防災應變中心裡，中央跟地方的權責為何？在應急、救急的調度怎麼去分工？怎麼給最有效的訊息跟資訊？這很重要。如果有資訊落差，再怎麼調度都沒用，就算調了也不行！所以資訊不能有落差，這是我非常強調的一點。"],["賴署長建信：謝謝委員指導。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們在第一線的調度發生問題，以致於調到現場的抽水機孔口徑太大，排水孔太小，進不了排水孔，這就是資訊落差！拜託這部分一定要嚴防，不要再有凱米來襲時的狀況發生！這個再拜託，因為現在只能救急。"],["賴署長建信：今天在應變中心會再重新盤點。"],["陳委員亭妃：再拜託署長。","第二個，有關傳統產業電費暴增的問題，在電價漲了之後，雖然有分離峰時間、半尖峰時間與尖峰時間，可是傳產在這一波計算下來，只要是用電大戶，級距就是加倍，可能從7%到14%。可是現在傳產發生一個問題，他們說：委員，你叫我們要拚經濟，叫我們要去拿訂單，我們訂單拿得越多、產量越多，我們的用電量就越多，結果級距用跳的，兩倍跳！請問兩倍跳之後，可以再回過頭來要求增加訂單成本嗎？不行啊，不能啊！所以他說，訂單拿越多賠越多，因為原本給的價格就是這樣！但是當台電再往上攀升、甚至加倍循環的價格時，他也不能回饋到原始價格，以致所有的傳統產業說，現在是逼我們到這裡就好，不要再增加訂單了，不要再搶訂單了？我這幾天聽到傳產業者這樣的回應，我嚇到了！所以我去調了這一次電價調漲後的情形，發現確實是這個狀況。可是我們問台電，台電說沒有，說有離峰時間、半尖峰時間與尖峰時間，他們可以依照他們的數據……但傳產是24小時，傳產都是24小時輪三班。過去我們的傳統產業是拿著一卡皮箱跑天下，他們是這樣拚經濟與時間賽跑的，因此，所謂的離峰時間、半尖峰時間跟尖峰時間，對他們來講一點幫助都沒有！現在他們面臨的是：要接訂單嗎？因為接越多賠越多，而且電價的級距是用跳的，是加倍的，這怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，電價是由電價審議委員所決定的，至於提供資料……我請台電董事長來向委員報告，好不好？"],["陳委員亭妃：來，請董事長。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，7%、14%不是累進的，這是第一件事；第二件事跟委員報告，要衰退的才會有7%緩漲，但這也是隨著景氣復甦，他還是會……"],["陳委員亭妃：不是，董事長，你聽不懂我的意思。我講的是現在，所以現在當然沒衰退，而且現在、目前還在增加訂單，這是經濟狀況還OK的傳產。但這些傳產所面臨的問題是：在目前的狀況之下用電趴數是如此，也當然不是累進的，但到了某一個坡度後就會往上跳！"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，在電價調整上，這幾年來的調整其實大概看得到調整的斜率……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，董事長……"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得這個斜率是存在的……"],["陳委員亭妃：我們最近聽到那麼多產業的聲音，你們是不是應該要成立一個平臺以協助傳產的用電？否則他們絕對不敢接單，他說不敢接訂單，因為接越多虧損越多！"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，部長一再指示我們要做這件事，所以我們會來做這件事……"],["陳委員亭妃：並沒有！並沒有啊！就並沒有啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們要趕快加緊速度，我們的方向、方法都有，現在就是執行力要提高。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是你連平臺都沒有出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在中小……"],["陳委員亭妃：現在傳產對於……"],["郭部長智輝：我們在中小微企業上利用這一次的數位化，還有深度節能這兩個方式、雙軸引擎下去，可以幫助他們提高競爭力……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你說的智慧化對他們來講……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，是數位化。"],["陳委員亭妃：數位化……"],["郭部長智輝：我們幫助他，之後才有辦法智慧化。"],["陳委員亭妃：數位化跟智慧化這部分要什麼時候達到，讓他們可以管控？第二個，你說要節能，說真的，節能的空間實在不大，所以你應該去了解所有傳產的狀況。其實傳產每一次配合你們所謂的一趴調整、一趴調整，大家真的很辛苦，因為他們又要接訂單，又沒有辦法得到政府關愛的眼神！請問你們用了多少力量在關心傳產？並沒有！"],["郭部長智輝：我們在組織上有調整，所以我們要求在實際面上、在執行力上要看到成果。我發現……"],["陳委員亭妃：多久？要怎麼看到成果？"],["郭部長智輝：我會要求中小企業署與產發署實際落實計畫……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，一個月？一個月讓我們看到你做出什麼樣的起步？我不敢要求能看到成果，但至少有起步。也就是你對傳產在用電方面的輔導，看怎麼讓他們安心？他們說：今天我該被漲的，OK。可是當我要進入下一個階段去搶訂單時，我會害怕，我會擔心！因為我搶了訂單後整個運作會增加；運作增加，用電量就會增加，這樣電費會增加，但我又不可能反饋到原始的價格當中，這樣就是做越多賠越多！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我可以瞭解……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這個部分該怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你所指教的我都可以了解，所以我回去以後，你說的一個月裡面……"],["陳委員亭妃：一個月！"],["郭部長智輝：我要求他們兩個……"],["陳委員亭妃：那個平臺先建立起來，怎麼去協助所有傳產在整體所謂數位化還有節能的部分做處理。"],["郭部長智輝：先從節能開始做，因為現在是關於電費……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，可是你們做的節能都是那種很表面、象徵的，你們並沒有了解各個產業的需要，這才是最嚴重的！"],["郭部長智輝：不會！"],["陳委員亭妃：你都只是叫大家照本宣科，然後從我們的電腦當中寫書面、用書面，這不對的！關於產業的需要，每個產業別有不同的需要，還有每個產業別有不同的狀況。"],["郭部長智輝：是，委員你講的、所指導的我完全能夠了解，我也是這樣要求我的部屬，如果一個月內沒有看到成績，那我會換掉這個部屬。"],["陳委員亭妃：拜託部長，讓傳產有信心啦！"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：大家都覺得我們現在好像每個眼光都在高科技、護國神山，護國神山很重要，可是如果沒有這些傳產當為基底，臺灣的經濟也沒有辦法穩住啦！謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：繼續開會。請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe委員：（10時47分）謝謝主席，有請徐委員長。"],["主席：委員長請。"],["徐委員長佳青：伍委員你好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：委員長好。過去外交部有一個國際青年交流計畫，在這個當中，其實常常邀請一些大學到國外去做一些演出，我們也很高興，因為往往都看得到有原住民文化的呈現。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是，曾經就是一連串發生一些文化挪用的問題，所以也有被一些原住民族的團體組織特別開記者會……"],["徐委員長佳青：有，我有注意到這個問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：舉個例子來講，像2012年的時候，成功大學出訪墨爾本，2013年臺灣大學出訪巴西團，在這個當中都有做原住民文化的表演，可是我們發現他們不但在穿著上出了很大的問題，甚至是演出的內容跟他們介紹臺灣原住民族的方式，其實都有很大的錯誤，這個部分經過檢討之後，很感謝外交部現在都有配一個文化顧問，所以這樣的狀況其實越來越少，幾乎沒有。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是我今天來就是要針對僑委會的部分、僑界的部分，要來請教一下委員長，因為我們看到這些年，其實僑界常常可能在春節或者慶祝國慶，也都喜歡有原住民文化的展現，在這個展現當中，我們就發現這個狀況還是一直存在。對這個部分，像我看到的，本來要秀出的PPT，像去年2023年也好，或者是前年2022年、大前年2021年，這樣的呈現一直不斷地出現。我要先講，我們不是希望因噎廢食啊！其實講一句實在話，我們是巴不得……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟伍委員報告，我在去年、前年都陸續有注意到這個現象，因為我們有些僑民年長，然後他們出國已經很久了，有時候並不瞭解臺灣的進步，跟我們對原住民文化、語言的重視，所以我近年來出國常常在告訴僑民我們臺灣有19種國家語言，其中16種的原住民語言，加上臺灣客語、臺灣台語、臺灣華語，所以大家一聽到就說：哇，真的嗎？我說：對！除此之外，原住民的文化跟相關的智慧財產權也是已經有登記註冊的，我們不能挪用，所以針對你們的表演，我們雖然很感謝大家願意展現臺灣多元族群文化，也讓原住民的特色可以呈現在國際朋友面前，這是好事，我們會加強輔導。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝委員長，因為您講到重點，這件事情我要再次強調，我們不是希望因噎廢食，反而是我們很希望臺灣原住民族的文化可以代表中華民國、代表臺灣走出去。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是我們要重視它的整個文化深度、它的正確性，如果做得好，它就是一個很有深度的表演；如果做不好，它就有一種文化誤用之外的表淺，讓人家覺得這個文化那麼簡單、那麼膚淺，我覺得這個對文化來講是很大的一個傷害。所以關於文化的顧問，我不曉得委員會這邊有沒有這樣的……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們未來會先跟原民會進行詢問，然後也會善用外交部已經配置的所謂……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為你們這是僑教中心辦的嘛？協助的？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們僑教中心是借給人家用的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我是在想另外一個層次，其實在國際間越來越重視文化挪用的問題，這其實是會出大新聞。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：像之前H＆M出產了一個羽毛頭飾，結果遭全球抵制，然後下架；或者是迪士尼的電影海洋奇緣，它也出了一個裡面半人半神角色「毛伊」的刺青兒童裝，也是遭到國際抵制，然後下架。所以文化誤用在國際間是會鬧笑話的……"],["徐委員長佳青：好，我們會加強跟僑界宣導。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望我們臺灣、我們中華民國不要有這樣的狀況，反而是我們應該把臺灣原住民族文化的深度好好的展現出來，去展現跟中國少數民族的不一樣，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝伍委員的提醒。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望可不可以在一個禮拜內提供……"],["徐委員長佳青：一個禮拜！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：一個月內也沒關係，提供這個檢討改善報告，至少我們要知道未來僑委會會怎麼樣去協助這一類的演出，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：OK，好，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝伍委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，委員長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員、陳亭妃委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","吳春城委員、吳春城委員、吳春城委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員是葉元之委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":232,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","洪申翰","馬文君","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","林憶君","陳永康","黃仁","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","賴惠員"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00003"}}},{"id":"156281","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adeb344aa7e6d8c97f2325639a1896b059d03045fce0cf86b0f2100f0c7800c801b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"10:42:05 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n四、\t審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n五、\t審查委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n六、\t審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n七、\t審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n八、\t審查委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答；第五案至第八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查。)\n【10月30日及31日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-10-30","start_time":"2024-10-30T10:42:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-10-30T10:51:24+08:00","duration":559,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-6"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.1953437500000001,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5578437500000004,"end":4.469093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.480968750000002,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.665343750000005,"end":133.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.01846875,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.00971875000002,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.06034375000002,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.84471875,"end":146.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.13909375,"end":218.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.35534375,"end":224.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.83971875,"end":230.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.91471875000002,"end":233.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.74971875000003,"end":253.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.85284375,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.93596875000003,"end":296.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.01846875,"end":304.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.46096875,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.48971875,"end":307.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.12221875,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.72971875,"end":308.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.02909375,"end":309.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.04596875000004,"end":328.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.20534375,"end":315.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.06971875,"end":319.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.77284375000005,"end":340.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.40846875,"end":379.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.01971875000004,"end":342.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.96034375000005,"end":344.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.16159375,"end":379.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.51596875,"end":393.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.94471875000005,"end":412.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.12659375000004,"end":425.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.12909375000004,"end":430.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.57159375000003,"end":429.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.36034375,"end":433.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.78221875,"end":431.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.49909375000004,"end":434.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.65034375000005,"end":441.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.45596875,"end":439.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.19409375000004,"end":445.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.15534375000004,"end":447.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.42096875000004,"end":475.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.07034375,"end":484.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.32659375000003,"end":487.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.30909375000005,"end":512.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.96346875,"end":513.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.41909375,"end":544.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.68909375,"end":514.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.7522187500001,"end":515.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.0303437499999,"end":553.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.9697187500001,"end":555.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.21846875,"end":555.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.2353437500001,"end":555.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.5390937500001,"end":558.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.3447187500001,"end":558.5090937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.223,"end":4.444,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長。有請部長。萬委員你好。好,部長辛苦了。我想今天您也一直在提到這個不義遺址保存條例,其實我們知道它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的。那其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後,這些業務就像您今天報告的,"},{"start":31.152,"end":44.275,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":45.604,"end":64.333,"text":"我們繼續來討論我們在過去審查促展條例的時候有一些爭議在當然那時候您都還不清楚當時那個爭議不過現在不義遺址條例這個草案同樣有發生一些盲點我想您一定有看到很多的專家學者或是其實有很多的委員其實都有呼籲轉型正義跟這個不義遺址的保存不能單純的就是在這個34年的8月15號到81年11月6號期間"},{"start":72.097,"end":99.454,"text":"那是應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等那應該以1895年5月8號日本取得台灣主權作為開端那本來我是想問一下部長的看法但剛才我有聽到部長的答詢那您的答詢我剛剛一字一句的把它記錄下來您是這樣說的您說其實不管是針對34年到81年甚至於到這個日據時代以及甚至於您還提到清朝的時候這些您全部認同"},{"start":100.154,"end":103.619,"text":"我剛是一字一句把它記下來的喔那只是現在這個條例草案我們討論是34年到81年所以你就是就這個部分比較具體的這個這個事件喔那你去做一個這個討論喔那我想這裡我要來請教部長喔"},{"start":116.396,"end":132.782,"text":"您剛所謂說在34年到81年這段時間它是比較具體的那難道您剛自己所說的您所認同的在日據時代甚至於在更早以前的一些事件難道就不具體嗎我想請教一下部長您也是來自影視界的文化人賽德克巴萊您看過嗎他的電影我全部看過那這裡面講的是事實嗎"},{"start":139.194,"end":154.971,"text":"應該是接近事實。接近事實,所以有不事實的地方?因為任何的考據、拍電影的…好,沒問題,我同意您一下要講的。那我認為啦,就是說在這個我們所謂的日據時代所謂的物色事件,我們看到不管是原住民的這些我們的朋友們,對於當時這個反抗日本的高壓統治,那發生了一些"},{"start":161.118,"end":180.674,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":180.734,"end":194.923,"text":"我們今天來這個審查不義遺址保存條例以及這個所謂的不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部上文化部是一個主責的機關那如果按照您剛剛所說您非常同意只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年那我想請教部長那是不是我們是主責機關在這個審查的時候您願不願意把這個期間把它擴大更完整更來包括"},{"start":205.609,"end":218.039,"text":"所有我們應該去討論的這個轉型正義的包含的期間像您所說的可能日據時代我們也把它加入或者您有更好的想法把它擴大我們來真正的尊重歷史達到轉型正義您同意嗎?"},{"start":219.397,"end":235.662,"text":"根據您的問題我有兩個回答一個就是剛剛講到具體所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代對著名的破壞是具體但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來台灣開始"},{"start":237.943,"end":250.872,"text":"當二二八事變到三十八年來之後開始三十八年的戒嚴他是一個漫長的全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的一個統治方式部長我想你有點弄錯我的問題我重複一下我的問題"},{"start":253.994,"end":272.917,"text":"我想您要提到34年、81年這個部分其實我們有意見我們要在這個期間去做討論去做審查我覺得討論審查的過程當中大家還可以有不同意見的表述這是對歷史的看法跟尊重跟我們想要完成我們想要達成的這個目標但今天討論的是說我們這個期間這樣對嗎所以您剛剛也說您認為日據時代也是或者更早也是所以我才請教您您願不願意同不同意我們把這個時間擴大"},{"start":283.991,"end":304.12,"text":" ️我﹏在審這個案子的基礎下﹏我不太可能再拉長那個時間的原因是﹏我們這個案子當初一設定就是﹏定義在民國34年這段﹏不是,第一個齁﹏這個設定其實大家本來就有意見﹏那審查的時候本來就會提出來﹏第二個,您是主責機關啦﹏您都已經對這個事情有意見了﹏為什麼不能改?"},{"start":304.56,"end":320.854,"text":"那我跟您講一下我的心情喔心情好心情對因為今天趙偉給的時間很有限你的心情可以短一點點可是我心情很重要啊因為我現在是文化部長啊好好您請說就是其實在那個初轉會的過程中我沒有參加過任何一場初轉會是就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的"},{"start":321.775,"end":321.915,"text":" ﹝請審查委員﹞"},{"start":337.751,"end":339.912,"text":"您的心情啊,您找時間到我辦公室來分享一下,我很願意我挪時間來聽喔。那當然我今天要提出幾個問題啦。我覺得既然您也認為說這個時間點其實是可以再擴大,我是建議您可以去考慮是不是把它擴大。"},{"start":352.896,"end":378.879,"text":"但是我們今天來討論就是說你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例這個草案第4條當中規範說主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料並且進行這個審議跟公告那根據文化部的統計目前不義遺址42處這是過去這個處長會公告但是我們還有潛在這個總共大概64處我想請教一下什麼叫潛在那目前還沒有經過審議怎麼認定的您簡述一下"},{"start":379.58,"end":380.621,"text":"現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下"},{"start":405.782,"end":433.934,"text":"但是有一些他是其實私人的產權你這樣公告出來會影響這個隱私權跟這個所有權益我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址但是這個公開的過程中我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址你不能用猜的啊因為財產不是你的啊所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀對對對那我是不是請這個執行單位報告一下"},{"start":437.819,"end":439.944,"text":"我們目前有公告的是已經審定,當時促轉會已經審定的"},{"start":446.349,"end":475.564,"text":"對外公告的。我想這樣子啦部長我覺得關於就是說這個當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護我希望你再去了解一下不要用心權判斷這件事情那其實我們也有在講說主管機關是有這個保護跟審議不義遺址你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查不過要尊重他的意願用適當的方式為之部長我再請教您一下怎麼尊重適當方式是什麼"},{"start":477.073,"end":477.874,"text":"我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。"},{"start":488.359,"end":511.76,"text":"我們只能用勸導吧?只能用勸導。那好,如果說我們只有勸導一職,今天部長在這邊講,那我把它記下來了。那最後我想我要特別提一下,就是說如果我們有一些強制的行為等等,我們把這個私人的不義遺址列為個案,那這個行為是行政處分嘛。那按照您剛剛講的是說,這個私有人他是有權利來拒絕的是嗎?"},{"start":512.944,"end":515.546,"text":"我希望我們在活化的過程中、調查的過程中我們一定要去考慮到現在有很多限制現狀是什麼狀況如果是私人的財產的部分我們希望不要用這個維護不義遺址的名義事實上可能會侵害了民眾的財產飲食權"},{"start":536.74,"end":537.74,"text":"我可以跟你見面講我三個舅舅怎麼樣被破壞的故事?"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時42分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：萬委員你好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長辛苦了，今天你一直提到這個不義遺址保存條例，我們知道其實它是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的，其實在當時這個充滿爭議的促轉會在115年退場之後，這些業務就像您今天報告的，有些部分在各個部會裡面，您的部分其實就是文化部的不義遺址保存工作。我想我先請教一下，部長，您以前曾經說過：「文化是加法，不是減法」這句話，對嗎？"],["李部長遠：對啊！"],["萬委員美玲：好，那我們繼續來討論。我們在過去在審查促轉條例時有一些爭議，當然那時候您說您都還不清楚當時那個爭議，不過現在不義遺址條例的草案同樣有發生一些盲點，我想您一定有看到很多的專家、學者或是其實有很多的委員都有呼籲，就是轉型正義跟不義遺址的保存不能單純在34年8月15號到81年11月6號期間，應該要包括過去威權國家對人民權利的侵害等等，應該以1895年5月8號日本取得臺灣主權作為開端。本來我是想問一下部長的看法，但剛才我有聽到部長答詢，我剛剛一字一句地把您的答詢記錄下來，您是這樣說的，您說其實不管是針對34年到81年，甚至於到日據時代，以及甚至您還提到清朝的時候，這些您全部認同，我剛剛是一字一句把它記下來的。只是現在這個條例草案，我們討論的是34年到81年，所以你只是就這個部分比較具體的事件去做個討論。","在這裡我要來請教部長，部長，您剛剛所謂34年到81年這段時間是比較具體的，難道您剛剛自己所說的，你所認同的在日據時代，甚至於更早以前的一些事件，難道就不具體嗎？我想請教一下，部長，您也是來自於影視界的文化人，賽德克巴萊，您看過嗎？"],["李部長遠：他的電影我全部看過。"],["萬委員美玲：好，這裡面講的是事實嗎？"],["李部長遠：應該是接近事實。"],["萬委員美玲：接近事實，所以有不事實的地方？"],["李部長遠：因為任何的考據，拍電影的人……"],["萬委員美玲：好，沒問題，我同意您等一下要講的，我認為在我們所謂的日據時代時有霧社事件，我們看到不管是原住民朋友們對於當時反抗日本的高壓統治，發生了一些讓大家遺憾的事情或慰安婦，這兩件事情難道不夠具體嗎？所以您剛剛的回答，我覺得其實可能有不完整的地方、有不完備的地方，我必須要提出來糾正。你不能講說這個東西在34年到81年是比較具體的，日據時代這些事件難道都不具體了嗎？","我們回過頭來又再看，今天我們來審查不義遺址保存條例以及所謂不義遺址保存的工作是在文化部，文化部是一個主責機關，如果按照您剛剛所說的，你非常同意，只是礙於現在的條例是34年到81年，我想請教部長，我們是主責機關，在審查的時候，您願不願意把這個期間擴大？更完整來包括所有我們應該去討論的轉型正義所包含的期間，像您所說的，可能日據時代也把它加入，或者你有更好的想法把它擴大，我們來真正的尊重歷史，達到轉型正義，您同意嗎？"],["李部長遠：根據你的問題，我有兩個回答，一個就是剛剛講到具體，所有曾經發生在清朝或者是更早時代，對原住民的破壞是具體，但是剛剛提到民國34年國民政府來臺灣開始，到了發生二二八事件，到38年來之後，開始38年的戒嚴，它是一個漫長的、全部是在戒嚴之下的一個很清楚的統治方式。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我想你有點弄錯我的問題。"],["李部長遠：我現在講……我講具體的就是說……"],["萬委員美玲：我重複一下我的問題，我想您要提到34年、81年的這個部分，其實我沒有意見，我們要在這個期間去做討論、去做審查，我覺得討論、審查的過程當中，大家還可以有不同意見的表述，這是對歷史的看法跟尊重，跟我們想要完成、我們想要達成的目標。但現在討論的是說，我們這個期間這樣對嗎？所以您剛剛也說，您認為其實日據時代也是，或者更早也是，所以我才請教您，您願不願意、同不同意我們把這個時間擴大？"],["李部長遠：我在審這個案子的基礎下，我不太可能再拉長那個時間的原因是，我們這個案子當初一設定就是定義在民國34年這一段……"],["萬委員美玲：不是，第一個、這個設定其實大家本來就有意見，審查的時候本來就會提出來；第二個、您是主責機關，您都已經對這個時間有意見了，為什麼不能改？"],["李部長遠：那我跟你講一下我的心情。"],["萬委員美玲：心情？好。"],["李部長遠：心情。"],["萬委員美玲：因為今天召委給的時間很有限，你的心情可以短一點點。"],["李部長遠：可是我的心情很重要，因為我現在是文化部長啊！"],["萬委員美玲：好，你請說。"],["李部長遠：其實在促轉會的過程中，我沒有參加過任何一場促轉會，就是因為我抱著非常謹慎的心情面對這些事情，就是說到底不義遺址也好、到底誰迫害誰也好、到底歷史的背景是什麼也好，我是懷著非常慎重的心情面對，今天在審查這個條例的時候，是回到法律條文而已，至於個人情感……"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，我想這樣子，您的心情你找時間到我辦公室來分享一下，我很願意挪時間來聽。當然我今天要提出幾個問題，我覺得既然您也認為這個時間點其實是可以再擴大，我是建議您其實可以去考慮是不是把它擴大，但是我們今天來討論，你看我們在這個不義遺址保存條例草案第四條當中有規範主管機關應該建立不義遺址的個案資料，並進行審議跟公告。根據文化部的統計，目前不義遺址42處，這是過去促轉會公告，但是我們還有潛在，總共大概64處，我想請教一下什麼叫潛在？目前還沒有經過審議，怎麼認定的？您簡述一下。"],["李部長遠：潛在就是說你對於它算不算是不義遺址還要經過一個比較詳細的調查跟審定，因為它在歷史的時候、發生這些事情的時候……"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以現在還沒有認定嘛！只是我們還要再繼續審議對不對？"],["李部長遠：對，潛在有可能是，要經過認定。"],["萬委員美玲：好，接下來我們再來討論，在草案第五條第二項規定說，不義遺址的個案資料，主管機關應該要以網路或其他方式公開。現在公開在國家人權博物館這個網站底下，但是有一些其實是私人的產權，你這樣公告出來會影響隱私權跟所有權人的權益。"],["李部長遠：我們不會強制他要不要跟我們配合做不義遺址，但是在公開的過程中，我不覺得私人他不太想要讓別人知道這是不義遺址……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，你不能用猜的啊！因為財產不是你的，所以你不能用你的心情去猜他呀！"],["李部長遠：對對對，我是不是請執行單位報告一下？"],["萬委員美玲：可以。召委等下可能要多給我30秒，你看他們這樣耽擱時間。"],["陳副館長淑滿：我們目前有公告的是已經審定，當時促轉會已經審定的對外公告的。"],["萬委員美玲：我想這樣子啦！部長，我覺得關於當事人的意願以及當事人的隱私等等的保護，我希望你再去了解一下，不要用心情判斷這件事情，其實我們也有在講，主管機關為保護跟審議不義遺址，你可以依據職權或者是接受提報來進行相關的調查，不過要尊重他的意願，用適當的方式為之。部長，我再請教您一下怎麼尊重，適當方式是什麼？"],["李部長遠：就是剛剛還是回到私人有私人的產權嘛！我們不能夠用強制的方式，所謂適當就是……"],["萬委員美玲：我知道，所以你要用什麼方式？我現在就是在詢問你這個部分。"],["李部長遠：我們只能用勸導吧！"],["萬委員美玲：只能用勸導？好，如果說我們只能勸導，今天部長在這邊講，那我把它記下來了。最後我想我要特別提一下，如果我們有一些強制的行為等等，我們把私人的不義遺址列為個案，這個行為是行政處分嘛！按照您剛剛講的是說這個私有人是有權利來拒絕的是嗎？"],["李部長遠：是啊，當然是。"],["萬委員美玲：好，他是有權利來拒絕的？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["萬委員美玲：很好，我想今天特別提到很多私人財產的部分，我希望我們在活化的過程中、調查的過程中，我們一定要去考慮到，現在有很多現址現狀是什麼狀況，如果是私人財產的部分，我們希望不要用維護不義遺址的名義，事實上可能會侵害了民眾的財產跟隱私權，好不好？我想這些都要去注意一下，我想會後非常歡迎就這個議題，部長不論是要再跟我討論法條或是分享心情都歡迎可以跟我辦公室約時間。"],["李部長遠：我可以跟你見面講我3個舅舅怎麼樣被迫害的故事。"],["萬委員美玲：我想被迫害的故事其實非常多，但我們要正視整個歷史的全貌，不是只有設定在某一個範圍內，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢，部長請回。","再來我們請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-6","speakers":["范雲","黃捷","洪孟楷","林倩綺","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","萬美玲","郭昱晴","張雅琳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":223.533,"end":223.553,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":245.909,"end":252.427,"text":"我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。"},{"start":254.639,"end":275.007,"text":"我的核心問題就是說,其實剛幾個委員在問啊,像比如說那個稅保官的問題啊,那個怎麼樣去定位的這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去把它做一個定位。我的問題倒都不是在這邊。我的問題是,你們有沒有去思考過,這個會造成當事人之間啊,武器不平等的問題。"},{"start":276.207,"end":295.424,"text":"你稅政機關啊你本來就是非常有專業囉我們當然也不會去講說法官對這些稅務全部都不懂也不會啦他也會去訓練只是沒有像稅政機關那麼有實務經驗每天實地在操作而已啊可是呢理論上來講啊比如說王滬密今天這個案子你今天是審辦長"},{"start":297.748,"end":325.236,"text":"這個案子在你手上你在審的時候你本來就是要聽兩招來聽聽看你現在加一個稅保官進來以後我第一個我比較擔心的會造成武器不平等我為什麼怕擔心他造成武器不平等因為他是來自於稅政單位你把他借過來那個心態我每一次在協調你們財政部稅政機關在人民的一種稅務徵送的案件的時候我一看的時候我聽到你們的講法以後"},{"start":326.274,"end":351.592,"text":"我都心裡頭我都很大的一個感慨了我都會跟你們講我說像這種有些事實不明不用追殺到底啦心目中還是要有人民的一個存在啦那個一追殺到底到最後不是你為國家多賺進多少稅收啊是在這個過程裡面人民想那種痛苦真的是很可怕"},{"start":352.432,"end":356.073,"text":"我擔心的是這個我擔心的真的會造成武器有沒有平等然後這個稅審官他到底會站在老百姓這一方還是會站在我單純不是說"},{"start":382.669,"end":395.532,"text":"幫這個法官來幫他說輔導他輔佐他來做出一個更好的判決我怕不是我怕是又跟回復到站在行政部門的立場就國家高權追殺我擔心的是這個所以你要嘛你就自己找無明合理吧如果要建立起一個公平的訴訟制度的話本該如此啊"},{"start":410.345,"end":413.232,"text":"委員報告因為這一個制度參考那個技術長官他當時確實有這種"},{"start":415.066,"end":416.107,"text":"一天到晚再撤銷撤銷他們自衛局自己的處分反而"},{"start":444.401,"end":471.368,"text":"他們反正這樣的聲音那所以確實我們這個制度參考主要參考日本不管是稅審官那他們也有這一個的疑問所以在將來在操作的時候我們一定會高度注重這一個中立性這一部分吳委員長我還有四位我沒有定見但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情你們有空去看youtuber我常常會看到很想笑"},{"start":472.368,"end":486.698,"text":"美國常常就是行政部門不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單然後走到法庭裡面可以一個老爺爺他動不動那個當事人就不服嘛就看告到法院來"},{"start":487.993,"end":493.899,"text":"帶著小孩來法官在審理案件的時候那真的是充滿了溫暖阿呦阿你今天陪著你媽媽來喔阿你吃什麼你好可愛喔阿你覺得我應該做什麼判決然後那個小孩子也很天真我媽媽很可憐我們沒有飯吃了那個法官也不講理喔好啦就這樣撤銷掉啦好好孝順父母我怎麼說天啊可以這樣判喔"},{"start":511.94,"end":515.122,"text":"但重點是你會覺得那個制度都超級溫暖。也就是說我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊。行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊。常常到最後回復到你原處分機關裡面人家自為一個處分啊。那現在變成跨機關啊。我覺得也很好。"},{"start":531.398,"end":554.17,"text":"這個是觀念上每一個人都可以去好好去做一個突破。你就變成說與其讓老百姓這樣在跟衙門之間就當然我們行政部門之間大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來我要去申複我要去溯怨然後再繳三分之一來來去去那真的是痛苦那到最後不如行政部門跟當時人民之間一次交給法院法院也可以自為處分自為判決"},{"start":558.883,"end":570.011,"text":"這是很大的一個突破啊連現在我們在民事訴訟跟刑事訴訟的時候你到事實審法院到高等法院你把它上訴到最高法院最高法院他也不跟你自為判決啊那事實審的問題我幫你丟回去啊那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破但是核心概念我還是認為啊這個稅審官這個部分喔"},{"start":579.46,"end":589.526,"text":"司法院應該好好去做一個思考這個是一個定位的問題除了我剛提到的那個會造成武器不平等的狀況之下第二個就是說人性"},{"start":590.782,"end":591.142,"text":"市長,你的看法合不合理?"},{"start":619.893,"end":620.433,"text":"錯!錯!錯!我跟你錯!你的保證無效!"},{"start":649.997,"end":662.091,"text":"你這個錯的離譜第一個這種情況就是會發生我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人不是我是跟你說那才符合人性而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎你們的訓練"},{"start":664.284,"end":668.585,"text":"你們的訓練本來稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊本來就是要增加稅收的啊然後我增加稅收以後你們的想法就是說你本來就是可惡啊你本來就是逃漏稅啊我徵收你剛剛好而已啊這種心態公務人員這樣訓練起來我沒有說不對可是如果以這種心態到處又到法院去的話我告訴你就會造成武器不平等"},{"start":685.666,"end":711.589,"text":"所以我們也希望就是說如果行政法院這邊可以採用就是他自行聘用那是最好是啊我的意思就是說我們要反省啦我沒有說全部都不對這個制度我們就必須要去反省我也可以請會計師進來啊我也可以請有一些專業的人進來啊我幹嘛都讓你你光一個審判庭的一個組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正你們是同一卦的"},{"start":713.36,"end":731.626,"text":"這是個是核心問題喔所以我才建議啦因為很多問題啦當然還有涉及到計判力的問題啦我剛剛提到那個中間判決那個那個都顛覆我們的想法但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對未必不對我很開放但是我總覺得這一步法就這樣子您這樣忽略了齁"},{"start":733.168,"end":733.188,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時37分）謝謝主席，有請司法院黃副秘書長、行政廳廳長、財政部次長。"],["主席：請黃副秘書長、高廳長、李次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：3位好。我簡單就教幾件事，這個新制要上路，我剛剛很仔細的在底下聆聽，我認為要再充分地討論，所以召委這部分的公聽可能也不可免，我為什麼這樣講呢？我記得我當年在念書時，尤其是在修民事訴訟法的時候，那個時候在學校裡面幾乎老師上課就跟你講，我們這個訴訟的制度是要建立一個符合人性，然後讓老百姓覺得是一個富有溫暖的訴訟制度。這幾年整個訴訟制度一直大修，今天我看到這樣是有一點感慨，國家課稅其實是一個高權行為，一課稅以後，老百姓當然是哇哇叫，什麼誠實繳稅都是課本上講給大家聽的，沒有繳到很多稅的人，也應該都會喜歡聽這個，可是財政部稅捐機關真正要向老百姓拔鵝毛的時候，他當然會哇哇叫。今天有幾個問題要來就教，當然你要解決萬年稅單這個問題，確實困擾臺灣民眾已經非常久，這一次稅務行政審理法裡面要改善的問題，其實裡面涉及到的不只這一些。本席一直有一個疑問，我昨天光看納保法二十幾條就看到快睡著了，何況去比較你們的新法？我跟你講，在司法及法制委員會要審這部法律沒那麼簡單，沒有幾個人有辦法審啦！所以還是要先公聽，這個還是要比較透明一點。","2016年納稅者權利保護法在我們通過以後，在2017年正式實施把納稅者權利保護法定位為特別法，就是排除稅捐稽徵法的束縛，那現在這部稅務行政事件審理法，看起來又是行政訴訟的一個特別法，我想請問納稅者權利保護法跟本法的關係到底有沒有什麼具體的差別，這個誰可以先告訴我一下？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員，是不是請我們廳長……"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以。"],["程廳長怡怡：報告委員，納保法當然是著重在納稅者權利保護。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然。"],["程廳長怡怡：我們這一部稅務行政事件審理法，其實保護納稅者權利也是其立法目的之一，所以兩部法律在保護納稅人權利的這個部分是一致的，只是這一部法律比較偏向於程序法，在訴訟程序方面有一些特別的明定，就像我們的這部法律跟納保法有一些規範是相同的，例如像證據排除，例如像協力義務，這都是相同的規範，只是我們是在納保法所建置的法制基礎架構上，然後在訴訟程序上進一步往前做一些更細緻的規範。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的核心問題是，整個稅捐稽徵法還有整個納保法，難道修正完以後就沒有涵攝到這個部分嗎？你們認為還沒有嗎？"],["程廳長怡怡：是啊！我們這一部法律就是在訴訟程序的進行跟審理上做更進一步的規範。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我的核心問題就是說，其實剛剛幾個委員在問比如稅保官的問題，這些人要怎麼樣在組織法裡面去做定位，我的問題倒都不是在這邊，我的問題是你們有沒有去思考過這個會造成當事人之間武器不平等的問題，稅捐機關本來就是非常專業，我們當然也不會講法官對這些稅務全部都不懂，也不會啦！他也會去訓練，只是沒有像稅捐稽徵機關那麼有實務經驗、每天實地在操作而已。","可是理論上來講，比如說，黃副秘，今天這個案子你是審判長，這個案子在你手上審的時候，你本來就是要請兩造來聽聽看，你現在加一個稅保官進來以後，第一個，我比較擔心會造成武器不平等，我為什麼擔心怕他造成武器不平等？因為他是來自於稅捐單位，你把他借過來，那個心態，我每一次協調你們財政部稅捐機關在人民的稅務爭訟案件的時候，我一看加上聽到你們的講法以後，我心裡頭都有很大的感慨，我都會跟你們講說，像這種有些事實不明的案件，不用追殺到底，心目中還是要有人民的存在。那個一追殺到底，到最後不是你為國家多賺進多少稅收，是在這個過程裡面，人民那種痛苦真的是很可怕，真的是很可怕。最後到行政法庭上，你們可能會和解收場，可是走出法庭以後，沒有人會對稅捐機關或者法院有任何好的評價，所以我擔心的是這個，我擔心這個會造成武器有沒有平等，然後稅審官到底會站在老百姓這一方，還是會單純站在法官這邊幫他、輔導他、輔佐他做出一個更好的判決？我怕不是，我怕的是又回復到站在行政部門的立場，國家高權追殺，我擔心的是這個，所以你要嘛就自己找，副秘，合理吧？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果要建立一個公平的訴訟制度的話，本該如此。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為這個制度是參考技術審查官，當時確實有這種質疑，所以才有聘用，當時想說聘用就找民間專利代理人，但是後來發現智慧局過來的這些審查官在法官的指揮之下，其實都還能夠保持公平、中立，甚至會質疑通通是智慧局過來的，一天到晚在撤銷他們智慧局自己的處分，反而他們喊出這樣的聲音，所以確實我們這個制度參考主要是參考日本，不管是稅審官，他們也有這一個疑問，所以將來在操作的時候，我們一定會高度注重中立性這一部分。"],["莊委員瑞雄：副秘書長還有4位，我沒有定見，但是我是站在一個民眾的立場來看待這件事情，你們有空去看YouTube，我常常會看，看到很想笑，美國常常就是行政部門，不管是交通罰單或政府給他開一個罰單，然後走到法庭裡面，就一個老爺爺，當事人不服嘛！就抗告到法院來，帶著小孩來。法官在審理案件的時候，那真的是充滿了溫暖，說是：你今天陪著你媽媽來，你吃什麼？你好可愛喔！你覺得我應該做什麼判決，然後那個小孩子也很天真說：我媽媽很可憐，我們沒有飯吃了。那個法官也不講理由，好啦！就這樣撤銷掉了，說要好好孝順父母。我想說：天啊！可以這樣判喔？但重點是你會覺得那個制度超級溫暖，也就是我們要解決這個萬年稅單的問題很好啊！行政訴訟本來就是一個撤銷訴訟啊！常常到最後回復到原處分機關自為處分，那現在變成跨機關，我覺得也很好，這個是觀念上每一個人都可以好好去做突破，就變成與其讓老百姓這樣跟衙門之間、行政部門之間，大家一直在那邊你做出一個處分出來，我要去申復、我要去訴願，還要再繳三分之一，來來去去，那真的是痛苦，到最後不如行政部門跟人民之間就一次交給法院，法院也可以自為處分、自為判決，這個是很大的突破。連現在我們在民事訴訟跟行政訴訟的時候，你到事實審法院，到高等法院或上訴到最高法院，最高法院也不給你自為判決，那是事實審的問題，把你丟回去。那行政訴訟我認為這是一個突破，但是核心概念我還是認為稅審官這個部分，司法院應該好好去做思考，這個是一個定位的問題，除了我剛提到的會造成武器不平等的狀況之下；第二個就是人性，我從財政部來的，我從國稅局來的，我可能要再回去，你借調我而已，我一去之後，全部都給你做出推翻原處分，然後都是有利於人民的處分出來，我回到我的原機關，我被你們這些財政部的高官修理死了！會有這樣的疑慮，你沒有辦法消除。次長，你的看法？合不合理？"],["李次長慶華：我覺得不會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼不會？"],["李次長慶華：不是，我的意思是說……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我講的是人性，什麼不會？"],["李次長慶華：我的意思是說……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你這個講的是站在官官相護的立場。"],["李次長慶華：不是、不是，我的意思是說，他如果到了法院變成稅審官以後，他如果再回到我們財政部的國稅機關或地方稅捐機關處理的話，我相信我們國稅機關跟地方稽徵機關，不會因為他在法院這邊做了一些什麼撤銷的決定，而對他的未來做任何影響。"],["莊委員瑞雄：錯！錯！錯！"],["李次長慶華：這個真的可以跟委員保證。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你說你的保證無效，你這個錯得離譜！第一個，這種情況就是會發生，我們不能推定每一個人都是壞人，不是！我是跟你說那才符合人性。而且第二個是什麼你知道嗎？你們的訓練，稅務機關本來就是要拔鵝毛的啊！本來就是要增加稅收的啊！然後增加稅收以後，你們的想法就是他本來就是可惡啊！本來就是逃漏稅啊！我徵收剛剛好而已啊！這種公務人員心態這樣訓練起來，我沒有說不對，可是如果以這種心態到最後又到法院去的話，我告訴你就會造成武器不平等。"],["李次長慶華：所以我們也希望就是說，如果行政法院這邊可以採用他自行聘用，那是最好，因為借調的話，當然就會有委員這樣的疑慮。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！我的意思就是說，我們要反省啦！我沒有說全部都不對，這個制度我們就必須要去反省，我也可以請會計師進來啊！"],["李次長慶華：對啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我也可以請一些專業的人進來啊！我幹嘛都讓你，你光一個審判庭的組成就讓老百姓會覺得你不公正，你們是同一掛的，這個是核心問題，所以我才建議，因為很多問題啦！當然還有涉及到既判力的問題啦！我剛剛提到中間判決，那個都顛覆我們的想法，但是顛覆我們傳統的看法未必不對，未必不對，我很開放，但是我總覺得這一部法就這樣子……你們這樣子，沒有那麼簡單啦！這部法要修真的是，因為對整個制度的一個重大變革，我知道是為了解決事情，可是為了解決什麼事？是為了解決人民的事，不是為了解決政府部門的事，所以要慎重，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝次長，謝謝副秘書長。","先作一個宣告：稍後於吳委員思瑤詢答後，依先前宣告處理臨時提案，然後再休息。","接續下來我們請吳委員思瑤詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","沈發惠","吳宗憲","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查司法院函請審議「稅務行政事件審理法草案」案；二、審查司法院函請審議「行政法院\n組織法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1139201_00003"}}},{"id":"156279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156279","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/da0d5cdf8d126adef6817a6ebd413e3883ab49806f6884ec03045fce0cf86b0f0a97a5adeee0372c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:38:45 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那我們就改進嘛好不好 這就改進但是我怎麼會為了到一個去上廁所去洗澡的地方來到一個地方去觀光你去蘇路嘉義你沒有阿里山沒有帆路沒有竹崎沒有各大景點我們來嘉義的時候是去看阿里山嘛去看雲海嘛去帆路的市集園嘛去大埔的征服學部嘛"},{"start":151.388,"end":151.809,"text":"所以你連結到這個?"},{"start":165.253,"end":166.193,"text":"網路介面的部分"},{"start":193.554,"end":208.676,"text":"這個埃喬港國防軍連的網頁就是你點下頁永遠都跳不過去的問題這個我們來展示一下就是說這些很基本的東西那當然我們要再跟中國競爭這個旅遊可以啊可以跳下去啊對啊"},{"start":211.926,"end":213.187,"text":"再來就是我們的這個華文學習研究這個部分"},{"start":238.882,"end":259.98,"text":"這個其實全球學習中文的人口比例是在下降當中那當然在下降當中有很多原因我認為一部分是地緣政治就是現在基本上你去跟中國做生意就是很困難的那怎麼樣把學習華文這個東西跟去中國學中文就是把我們自己的品牌做出來我們當然是覺得很重要"},{"start":261.38,"end":278.008,"text":"我們從學習的經濟學人的報導裡面有講他說大概2013年選中文的美國的人大概達到高峰但是2016年到2020年就是下降21%所以說在這個趨勢當中是大概減少31%委員長你怎麼看這個趨勢"},{"start":282.663,"end":302.829,"text":"確實過去因為世界工廠在中國的概念很多人既進行投資因此有實用性的這個需求要溝通而去學了華語但中國雖然高度的在全球去做紅子學院這樣子的一個設置但事實上是在做大外宣跟統戰的機制這四年來已經被陸續各國都關閉了那關閉以後其實華語的學習人口的其實依舊在"},{"start":310.851,"end":334.722,"text":"那麼我們為什麼從2021年開始在美國及歐洲大力的去成立台灣華語文學習中心也是希望能夠跟我們國際朋友介紹說你就是可以在這個介面平台上不用有任何被統戰或者是政治的行銷的困擾之下你一樣可以學習到很好的華語所以我們在這個以台灣的這個優質"},{"start":338.624,"end":342.746,"text":"委員長講得很好其實就是沒有把意識形態貫注在華文教育這是我們跟其他人不同不會像中國的孔子學院或者是他們類似相關的這樣子的華文的教學裡面通常都把"},{"start":362.358,"end":362.738,"text":"社群媒體社群媒體"},{"start":380.964,"end":384.706,"text":"跟委員報告我們有一個1加6的這個官網的平台除了我們傳統的這個網站那我們另外6個呢就是我們僑務電子報YouTube推特就是XInstagram還有Facebook"},{"start":396.63,"end":397.351,"text":"委員長,我覺得這個方向是對的,但是那個你看一下,包含IG"},{"start":421.187,"end":442.278,"text":"除了委員會的官方帳號之後大概只有英國成立那僑委會的本身帳號也沒有去追蹤就沒有辦法造成串聯的效果是那這個甚至X都不用說啦其實其他的這些僑務秘書S跟Instagram是全英文的對對對很好很好啊我說彼此之間的互相追蹤是是是串流串流很重要我這個也是提醒同仁包含頻率還有這個是的"},{"start":445.421,"end":465.789,"text":"社交媒體要串流才會有傳播效益我認為這特別是在X是很重要的一環因為現在基本上中共的所有的訊息特別是錯假亂訊息基本上都在X這邊亂串如果我們沒有辦法第一時間來去反制那基本上就是只有他們的一言堂"},{"start":467.87,"end":467.89,"text":"委員長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時38分）你好！請委員長。"],["主席：委員長，請。"],["徐委員長佳青：陳委員，你好！"],["陳委員冠廷：委員長好！委員長，這次我們國慶有四千多個僑胞回國嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：那是疫後的新高。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個當然是很正面，這代表我們有做對一些事情……"],["徐委員長佳青：是，我們還有一場活動……"],["陳委員冠廷：但是這個書面報告也有提到中共的統戰手段推陳出新……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：還有什麼低價旅行團鼓勵僑胞赴中旅遊，甚至想要用這個方式去排擠他們來參加雙十國慶，營造僑胞不想返臺的假象，當然沒有成功嘛！我也看到僑委會有一些方式，就是針對他們用旅遊的方式，我們也有一些反制的作法，比方用i僑卡，攜手旅行業者推動國旅，我想請問一下，這個成效你滿意嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們跟對岸的作法其實是很不一樣，因為我們是自由民主的國家，我們是提供多元的選擇，讓僑民跟僑胞回國的時候可以有更多選擇，我們是提供優質的旅行路線，加上我們也有補助，當然是一個象徵性的補助，但是為了鼓勵國旅，尤其是在4月3號地震之後，我們為了加強花東地區的旅遊，我們甚至更加碼20%補助。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝委員長，我講你們i僑卡的一些好處，就是特約633家商店、攜手34家旅行社、規劃162條的旅遊路線，來推動國旅。"],["徐委員長佳青：對、對。"],["陳委員冠廷：可是我發現i僑卡的官網搜尋旅遊景點，這個非常凌亂啊！它的網站使用介面，比方說我們來自嘉義，我搜尋嘉義，它推薦的景區是嘉義海巡服務區，原來到嘉義要來我們的海巡服務區嘛？理由是什麼？是可以解決廁所在哪裡的這種擔憂？"],["徐委員長佳青：應該不是這個理由啦！"],["陳委員冠廷：當然不是這個理由，那我們就改進嘛！好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個要改進，怎麼會為了到一個去上廁所、去洗澡的地方，來到一個地方觀光？你去輸入嘉義，沒有阿里山、沒有番路、沒有竹崎、沒有各大景點，我們來嘉義的時候是去看阿里山、去看雲海、去番路的柿子節、去大埔的曾文水庫、竹崎的奮起湖……"],["徐委員長佳青：事實上，我們i僑卡是用連結的，其實是連結到各個官網的系統。"],["陳委員冠廷：這些完全沒有，就是來一個海巡服務站。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，這個介面，我們本身不生產東西放在上面，我們是連結所有的官網跟外面的系統。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以你連結到這個？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們會來檢討，這個連結有問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有關係，這當然是你們快速改進就好了，我就點出問題嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：好的、好的。"],["陳委員冠廷：其實我是認為不要重新發明，好不好？直接跟觀光署合作，用互動式的方式，就把我們重要的景區呈現，直接跟觀光署合作就好了。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的、好的。"],["陳委員冠廷：你們就不用重新再發明一次，這不是你們的專業，就不需要……"],["徐委員長佳青：對、對！我們就連結觀光署的就好，好的。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來，還是網路介面的部分，i僑卡觀光景點的網頁，你點下一頁永遠都跳不過去的問題，我們來展示一下，這些很基本的東西，當然我們要再跟中國競爭旅遊……"],["徐委員長佳青：可以啊！可以跳下去啊！對啊。"],["陳委員冠廷：它會重複，這沒關係啦！委員長，你們改進就好了，這個沒關係，很迅速……"],["徐委員長佳青：是、是，好！持續改進、持續改進，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個低價團對海外僑胞吸引力不夠，因為僑胞希望有溫暖回家的感覺，我們就給他溫暖回家的感覺，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：是的、是的，好的，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：這些都沒有關係，我提醒，然後改進就好。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來就是華文學習研究這部分，其實全球學習中文的人口比例是在下降當中，當然在下降當中有很多原因，我認為一部分是地緣政治，現在基本上你去跟中國做生意，就是很困難的，怎麼樣把學習華文這個東西跟去中國學中文，就是把我們自己的品牌做出來，我們當然是覺得很重要，在經濟學人的報導裡面有講，大概2013年選中文的美國人達到高峰，但是2016年到2020年下降21%，所以在這個趨勢當中，大概是減少31%。委員長，你怎麼看這個趨勢？"],["徐委員長佳青：確實，過去因為世界工廠在中國的概念，很多人去進行投資，因此有實用性的需求、要溝通，而去學了華語，但中國雖然高度地在全球去做孔子學院的設置，但事實上是在做大外宣跟統戰的機制，這四年來陸續在各國已經都關閉了；那關閉以後，其實華語的學習人口依舊存在，我們為什麼從2021年開始在美國及歐洲大力的去成立臺灣華語文學習中心，也是希望能夠跟我們國際朋友介紹，你可以在這個介面平臺上，不用有任何被統戰，或者是政治行銷的困擾之下，你一樣可以學習到很好的華語，所以我們以臺灣的優質教學，還有科技、技術的進步，以及我們自由民主體制這樣的概念上，我相信我們華語文學習中心的品牌是可以逐漸打出去。"],["陳委員冠廷：委員長講得很好，其實就是沒有把意識型態灌注在華文教育，這是我們跟其他人不同的。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：不會像中國的孔子學院，或者是他們類似相關的華文教學裡面，通常都把他們想要宣傳（propaganda）的東西放進去，這是我們不同的地方。"],["徐委員長佳青：對！"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這個部分，我們還是希望能夠加強透過社群媒體來去傳播，但是說到社群媒體，委員長，我們僑委會目前透過哪些管道跟世界各地的僑胞保持聯繫？哪些社群媒體？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我們有一個「1+6」的官網平臺，除了我們傳統的網站，另外6個就是僑務電子報、YouTube、Twitter（就是X）、Instagram，還有Facebook，另外還有LINE，這6個管道的官網，我們都會依著不同僑區的需求，同時我們也會去link在某些僑區，可能經營的網站已經非常好了，他的Facebook很好了，或他的Instagram很好了，我們也會去跟他們嘗試連結、分享。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，委員長，我覺得這個方向是對的，但是你看一下，包含IG，除了委員會的官方帳號之外，大概只有英國成立，僑委會本身的帳號也沒有去追蹤，就沒有辦法造成串聯的效果，甚至X都不用說啦！其實，其他的這些僑務秘書等等……"],["徐委員長佳青：X跟Instagram是全英文的，對。"],["陳委員冠廷：對、對，很好，我說彼此之間的互相追蹤，彼此之間……"],["徐委員長佳青：是，串流很重要，我也是一直提醒同仁。"],["陳委員冠廷：發文頻率、還有這個……"],["徐委員長佳青：是的，social 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"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.0772187500002,"end":730.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.18221875,"end":775.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.7890937500001,"end":764.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.0503437500001,"end":770.88096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.223,"end":16.281,"text":"鄭正鈐委員質詢謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長跟沈長赤還有沈長赤"},{"start":22.765,"end":44.46,"text":"委員長現在主席今天安排了就是我們經濟部的夜報然後也針對SRF的一個相關的一個問題進行一個專報然後我在想說說實話我覺得經濟部在講到經濟發展的時候我跟環境部他們是有些立場有時候會有一些些的一個衝突所以今天我們的環境部跟"},{"start":45.641,"end":59.955,"text":"經濟部一起在這邊備詢我覺得這機會其實也是挺難得不過我想說我首先先問一下郭部長你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開那他們這次要延到11月4號到11月8號"},{"start":61.756,"end":81.426,"text":"才開始召開而且預計會提出一個實照刺激經濟的一個財政方案那日本其實他們是在上週其實也選完了那個國會選舉然後他們預計在11月11號才要做那個首相的改選那這裡面都有一個共同點就是他們都配合了一個美國大選的一個問題"},{"start":83.046,"end":103.982,"text":"那美國大選這邊的時候因為目前坦白說競爭也是很激烈可是因為有特定候選人他不斷的表示說台灣偷了美國的晶片那針對這個問題的時候我不知道說我們的經濟部是不是有一些特別的一個做法能夠去因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的一個問題可不請部長簡單做個回應"},{"start":107.725,"end":121.582,"text":"這裏面我想就像剛才委員所指教的這裏面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題所以我們現在在美國的這個選舉的最後的這段日子裏面其實是不便來"},{"start":123.324,"end":151.938,"text":"明姐不過我相信其實對於整個美國大選結果之後一定會對台灣的產業產生一些的影響所以我們也希望經濟部這邊能夠提早因應那些有一些備案有A方案有B方案一起來做一個相對的一個因應謝謝委員的指教我想這個部分在國安系統上面都有應該都有準備經濟部當然是會做一些這個simulation就是說針對哪一位"},{"start":153.178,"end":158.621,"text":"那我想說部長因為我剛剛聽到那個委員在問你那個我發現你國學能力其實很強就是可以背出一個很好的一個詩詞出來我在講畫大餅這件事情的時候我最近把那個背的表示你的中文底子其實挺好的"},{"start":179.514,"end":195.632,"text":"但我在想說針對畫餅這個事情的時候因為我們之前追問過很多次有關於你不斷的提到2030之前台灣不缺電也不缺綠電這件事情那我覺得你有一個前提就是在現有的計畫當中如果能夠如期進行可是呢因為"},{"start":196.152,"end":221.174,"text":"重點在於是不是能夠如期進行所以他的執行力其實很關鍵那我這邊只是要特別去提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分的時候顯然就碰到了有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題所以我在這邊也想問一下就是我們環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中是不是有足夠的能力去處理然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通的一個狀態"},{"start":223.459,"end":246.498,"text":"我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標啦就我想委員應該很清楚我從民間來的話我做事情的風格就是全力以赴那能夠達標為止啦所以您剛所指導的這個部分包括這個跟民間溝通的這件事情我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手共同來解決這個問題"},{"start":247.839,"end":272.706,"text":"而不是說這個問題由中央政府來解決．或者說這個問題光是由地方政府來解決．因為他們都是我們的國民．國民所產生的問題我們就是要共同來解決理解齁那部長那因為那個我想針對省次長剛剛有回答其他委員問題的時候提到說今年年底前的時候針對SRF的一個相關的一個法令規定會先具體出來對不對"},{"start":273.686,"end":274.647,"text":"可以請次長這邊先簡單回應一下嗎?"},{"start":293.176,"end":310.117,"text":"對,謝謝委員藉這個機會我再說明一下,排放標準的部分,比如說大家很關心的重金屬或者是耐耗性的部分,歐盟有的標準我們都跟他一樣,甚至比他略嚴格,歐盟沒有的標準我們...那我問一下,我們的力狀污染物的排放標準是多少,台灣目前?"},{"start":310.678,"end":336.877,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前桃園市政府的副市長也有做建議桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議那我要藉這個機會做一個說明就是歐盟他對於這個發電量的這個規模有不同的標準不同的標準那因為我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的那所以針對比方說氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎"},{"start":338.358,"end":365.6,"text":"就是因為發電量不同的時候會有不同的標準嘛那我們希望這個部分能夠很清楚的跟民眾做一個溝通不要造成民眾的一個困擾跟反彈好不好那針對這部分的時候我想說先到這邊我想接下來我想問的一個事情是有關於現在政府不斷在發展再生能源嘛所以很多人也都強調綠電的部分那國發會在2030年的部分有特別提到"},{"start":367.121,"end":378.626,"text":"希望國防會在109年提到2030年的時候我們的除能設備的目標值是多少部長你知道嗎我是不是請這個能源署來報告一下"},{"start":379.488,"end":404.599,"text":"報告委員整個儲能我們是分成並往型儲能1GW然後在發電端的是500MW我看到數字的時候有時候國發會這邊希望說在109年的那個前瞻基礎建設當中的那個支持推動民間建設的時候是提到3GW的啦那我在想說到目前為止齁到今年目前為止的時候我們已完工的一個全國的儲能電廠的容量是多少有沒有具體數字"},{"start":409.602,"end":419.454,"text":"我們儲能的話,我們現在有這個新的發電模式然後可以讓這個儲能的這個市場"},{"start":429.184,"end":453.871,"text":"能夠得到更大的這個...理解喔那個部長我這邊先簡單講一下齁如果沒有數字的時候因為坦白說我們在這個會期當中的時候其實從去年到從上個會期到現在的時候我發現經濟部確實很想要努力去發展綠電這部分然後也在排除一些目前碰到的一些阻礙啦齁那這部分本席是肯定的包括有關於有一些"},{"start":455.953,"end":462.608,"text":"與電共生等等相關的問題上次有跟部長諮詢過那我看到數字的時候到目前為止的時候我們的純能電廠的"},{"start":465.795,"end":483.239,"text":"農量是1.3 Giga但是到台電到2025年的時候我看到數字是只要1 Giga所以目前是有點超前那超前坦白說也不一定是好也不一定是不好可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠卻出現了一個退場潮"},{"start":485.92,"end":510.288,"text":"很多人看出現退場潮那在過程當中的時候為什麼出現在退場潮一定有一些相關的一些問題產生那我這邊因為今天有那個環境部的次長在這邊我想特別提到在這1.3GW目前的一顆剛剛那個鄭先生董事長也點頭嘛這數字是對的對不對是對的嘛那我想問一下1.3GW的那個出能電廠的時候要用到多少的鋰電池"},{"start":514.598,"end":534.35,"text":"要用到多少鋰電池?有沒有誰可以回答?我們回去瞭解一下好,瞭解一下回答我因為坦白說我們跟經濟部這邊要資料要了好多天也都沒有達到具體的數字所以就是農業署長這邊有數字嗎?1.3G需要用多少鋰電池?"},{"start":536.334,"end":559.967,"text":"我們回覆以後我們馬上瞭解然後跟各位報告好那我為什麼可以問到這個狀態因為之前在籌設純能電廠的時候坦白說非常的寬鬆只要有土地使用許可有台電的一個匱限就可以設所以基本上在過程當中對於消防對於安全對於整個廢棄物的處理都沒有相關的規定"},{"start":561.568,"end":571.169,"text":"後來慢慢補救的時候呢現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來可是對於整個廢棄物的處理目前有沒有具體的一個處理的一個標準"},{"start":573.075,"end":573.095,"text":"市長"},{"start":603.355,"end":620.228,"text":"是,是這樣子嘛對不對?是,這就是我特別要提到的問題就是說到目前為止我們只針對一公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的一個機制一公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的所以本席這邊也特別希望"},{"start":620.888,"end":644.25,"text":"就是我們經濟部跟環境部這邊的時候能夠針對鋰電池的一個工業使用的一個回收能夠盡快定出一個標準出來那尤其是鋰電池失火的問題到目前為止有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場那個郭部長知不知道"},{"start":646.141,"end":651.757,"text":"你是說鋰電池試貨的問題嗎?對,到目前有多少的出能電廠已經退出市場你知道嗎?"},{"start":652.794,"end":677.067,"text":"現在很多人在經營上面因為他沒有被使用了那我們現在就是會去了解這些問題因為他可以不在他原來的目的事業目的上面去做他其實轉到其他的這個理解這種事你剛剛要補充哪一個部分你可不可以補充一下對我看你剛剛本來想要表示沒有我們現在在做深度節能就是EXCO的時候會用到儲電"},{"start":678.248,"end":679.53,"text":"我們在用exco的時候"},{"start":699.832,"end":727.896,"text":"綠電的過程當中環保問題同時去兼顧到那我這邊也特別講到對於太陽能板因為馬上也會碰到一個回收的問題太陽能板目前的回收的時候也是用粉碎的方式直接用掩埋的方式目前以這為多數可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收進入再循環的一個體系當中這部分我們公研院已經有solution了是可是目前沒有進到整個的回收標準當中所以我希望經濟部跟"},{"start":728.636,"end":757.409,"text":"環境部這一邊 社長你簡單回答對對 太陽能板的部分事實上現在已經有收基金就是每千瓦要收一千塊那這個部分我們已經有部分國內的廠商投入研發所以只要有只要有破損 比如說颱風來破損的部分打專線電話就會有人來清楚處理但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年20年後大量產生的時候一定會帶動國內的這樣的一個投入在這個設廠的部分那目前已經有方法可以處理"},{"start":758.089,"end":775.274,"text":"OK,我知道目前有辦法可以處理,可是對於整個的一個回收的機制的時候還沒有很完善,所以粉席希望說我們經濟部,顧部長在這邊,跟我們環境部這邊,能夠針對這些綠能有關的回收機制,能夠盡快的完善,好不好?謝謝以上。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時28分）謝謝主席，我想請一下郭部長和沈常次。"],["主席：請郭部長和沈常次。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長早。主席今天安排了經濟部的業報，然後也針對SRF相關的問題進行專報，說實話，我覺得經濟部講到經濟發展，跟環境部的立場有時候會有一些些衝突，所以今天環境部跟經濟部一起在這邊備詢，我覺得這個機會其實也是挺難得。我首先問一下郭部長，你知道大陸他們的人大常委會一般都在10月底召開，但他們這次要延到11月4號至11月8號才開始召開，而且預計會提出一個10兆刺激經濟的財政方案。日本在上週也完成了國會選舉，然後他們預計在11月11號才要進行首相改選。這裡面有一個共同點，就是他們都配合美國大選的問題。針對美國大選，坦白說目前競爭也是很激烈，可是因為有特定候選人不斷的表示說臺灣偷了美國的晶片，針對這個問題，我不知道經濟部是不是有一些特別的作法，能夠因應美國大選之後我們要怎麼去面對這樣的問題，可不可以請部長簡單做個回應？"],["郭部長智輝：就像剛才委員所指教的，這裡面有牽涉到很多是國安的問題，所以我們在美國選舉最後的這一段日子裡面，其實是不便提出個人的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，不過我相信在美國大選之後，一定會對臺灣的產業產生一些影響，所以我們也希望經濟部能夠提早因應，而且有一些備案，有A方案、有B方案，一起來做相對的因應。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教，我想這個部分在國安系統上面應該都有準備，經濟部當然會做一些simulation，就是說針對環境有什麼樣改變的時候，我們的因應對策是什麼。抱歉，目前我們比較不能夠去評論，因為他們還在選舉進行中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，因為我剛剛聽到委員在問你，我發現你的國學能力其實很強，可以背出很好的詩詞來，也就是在講畫大餅這件事情的時候，這表示你的中文底子其實是挺好的。針對畫餅這個事情，因為我們之前追問過很多次，有關於你不斷地提到2030年之前，臺灣不缺電、也不缺綠電這件事情，我覺得你有一個前提都是現有的計畫如果能夠如期進行，因為重點在於是不是能夠如期進行，所以它的執行力其實很關鍵。我只是要特別提到因為今天我們針對SRF這部分，顯然就碰到有一些跟我們計畫當中不一定能夠那麼順去走的問題，所以我在這邊也想問一下，環境部跟經濟部在這樣的問題當中，是不是有足夠的能力去處理，然後跟地方上是不是有足夠的溝通？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就是全力希望能夠達標，我想委員應該很清楚，我從民間來，我做事情的風格就是全力以赴，到能夠達標為止。有關您剛才所指導的部分，包括跟民間溝通的這件事情，我想中央政府跟地方政府一定要攜手共同來解決這個問題，而不是說這個問題由中央政府來解決，或者說這個問題光是由地方政府來解決，因為他們都是我們的國民，國民所產生的問題，我們就是要共同來解決。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。沈次長剛剛回答其他委員的問題時，提到今年年底以前針對SRF的相關法令規定會具體提出來對不對？因為很多委員也都具體提到我們目前對於材料的部分比照歐盟的標準，可是對空污的部分並沒有比照歐盟的標準，因為依照現在的空污法，我們的標準相對寬鬆，可以請次長先簡單回應一下嗎？"],["沈次長志修：謝謝委員，藉這個機會我再說明一下，有關排放標準，比如說大家很關心的重金屬或者是戴奧辛的部分，歐盟有的標準，我們都跟它一樣，甚至比它略為嚴格；歐盟沒有的標準，我們甚至在參考其他國家……"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我問一下，臺灣目前的粒狀污染物排放標準是多少？"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告，之前桃園市政府副市長有提出建議，桃園市政府環保局也有做過建議，我要藉這個機會做一個說明：歐盟對於發電量的規模有不同的標準……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["沈次長志修：以我們國內現況的這些使用廠來講，我們的標準跟他們的標準是相當的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以針對氮氧化物的情況也是相當嗎？"],["沈次長志修：是，一樣。"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是因為發電量不同的時候，會有不同的標準嘛！"],["沈次長志修：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們希望這個部分能夠很清楚的跟民眾做溝通，不要造成民眾的困擾跟反彈，好不好？"],["沈次長志修：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分我先探討到這邊，接下來我想問的事情是有關於現在政府不斷在發展再生能源，所以很多委員也都強調綠電的部分，國發會在109年特別提到在2030年的時候，我們的儲能設備的目標值是多少？部長，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請能源署來報告一下？"],["游署長振偉：報告委員，整個儲能我們是分成併網型儲能1GW，然後在發電端的是500MW。"],["鄭委員正鈐：以我所看到的數字，國發會在109年前瞻基礎建設當中的「支持推動民間建設」是提到3GW，請問到目前為止，全國已完工儲能電廠的容量是多少？有沒有具體數字？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們應該是有具體數字，儲能的話，報告委員，我們現在有新的發電模式，然後可以讓儲能這個市場能夠得到更大的應用。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，我這邊先簡單講一下，如果在沒有數字的時候，坦白說，其實從上個會期到現在，我發現經濟部確實很想努力去發展綠電這部分，然後也在排除目前碰到的一些阻礙，這部分本席是肯定的，包括有一些漁電共生等等相關的問題。上次有跟部長質詢過，我在看到數字的時候，到目前為止，我們儲能電廠的容量是1.3GW，但是台電到2025年的時候，我看到的數字是只要1GW，所以目前是有點超前，超前坦白說不一定是好，也不一定是不好，可是我們看到了現在很多儲能電廠出現了退場潮，在這個過程當中，為什麼出現退場潮，一定有一些相關問題產生，因為今天環境部次長也在這邊，我想特別提到，這1.3GW，剛剛曾文生董事長也點頭表示，這數字是對的，對不對？是對的，所以我想問一下，是1.3GW的時候，儲能電廠要用到多少的鋰電池？"],["沈次長志修：這個我們沒有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：有沒有誰可以回答？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回去了解一下。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，了解後請回答我，坦白說，我們跟經濟部這邊要資料都要了好多天，也都沒有拿到具體的數字，所以能源署長這邊有數字嗎？1.3GW需要用多少鋰電池？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回部以後馬上去了解，然後再跟委員報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，我為什麼特別問到這個，因為之前在籌設儲能電廠的時候，坦白說，是非常的寬鬆，只要有土地使用許可，有台電的饋線就可以設，所以基本上在這個過程當中，對於消防、對於安全、對於整個廢棄物處理都沒有相關的規定，後來慢慢進行補救的時候，像現在對於消防安全有一個標準出來，可是對於整個廢棄物的處理，目前有沒有一個具體的處理標準呢？請次長。"],["沈次長志修：跟委員報告一下，鋰電池是我們公告回收的項目，但現在主要都是針對我們平常、日常生活使用的，像這種產業大量的儲能，這是未來的一個趨勢，所以對於這個部分的處理量能也會視其生命週期排出的量能、規模之後，自然會引導這樣的產業進來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長，所以簡單講，現在只有針對小型的部分有回收，但對於工業型使用的、產業在用的，其實是沒有回收、沒有標準。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是這樣子嘛，對不對？"],["沈次長志修：產業規模到那裡的時候它就會進來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這就是我特別要提到的問題，到目前為止，我們只針對1公斤以下的鋰電池有回收的機制；1公斤以上的鋰電池是沒有回收機制的。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以本席也特別希望，我們經濟部跟環境部能夠針對工業使用的鋰電池回收，能夠儘快訂出一個標準。"],["沈次長志修：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：尤其是鋰電池失火的問題，到目前為止，有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場？郭部長知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：你是說鋰電池失火的問題嗎？"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，到目前有多少的儲能電廠已經退出市場，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在很多人在經營上面，可能是因為它沒有被使用，所以我們現在就是會去了解這些問題，因為它可以不在它原來的事業目的上面去做，它其實轉到其他的商業模式上……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。曾董事長，你剛剛要補充哪一個部分？你可不可以補充一下？我看你剛剛想要表示一下意見，沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們現在在做深度節能，就是ESCO的時候，會用到儲電，我們在用ESCO的時候……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，我今天特別要講一個點，因為今天你跟環境部次長其實都在現場，針對我剛剛講的，工業用使用的鋰電池的回收，目前顯然是沒有，可是它對於我們經濟部在推的綠能，顯然是重要的東西，所以我們希望在發展綠電的過程當中，環保問題也要同時兼顧到。我這邊也要特別講到，對於太陽能板，因為馬上也會碰到回收的問題，太陽能板目前的回收，也是用粉碎的方式、用掩埋的方式，目前以這為多數，可是太陽能板是不是能夠有更高比例的回收，進入再循環的體系當中？"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分，我們工研院已經有solution。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，可是目前它沒有進到整個的回收標準……"],["郭部長智輝：因為它還沒有到回收的事實……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，請次長簡單回答。"],["沈次長志修：太陽能板的部分，事實上，現在已經有收基金，就是每千瓦要收1,000塊，就這個部分，我們已經有部分國內廠商投入研發，比如說颱風來有破損的部分，打專線電話就會有人來清除、處理，但我們預估這個生命週期大概是10年、20年後，在其大量產生的時候，一定會帶動國內投入設廠的部分，且目前已經有方法可以處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我知道目前有方法可以處理……"],["沈次長志修：包括風力發電的部分，我們也已經考慮到風機機片的回收再利用。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是整個回收機制還沒有很完善，所以本席希望我們經濟部郭部長跟我們環境部，能夠針對這些綠能有關的回收機制，能夠儘快予以完善，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["沈次長志修：是，我們會跟經濟部一起來。謝謝。"],["主席：請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-9","speakers":["呂玉玲","林岱樺","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","黃健豪","邱志偉","鄭天財Sra 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延續剛剛紅委員的問題這個部分因為是僑委會負責辦理進來的那學校也是僑委會媒介所以立即應該就請他們終止這樣的做法因為這讓人家想到聯想到我們有很多被騙到"},{"start":31.013,"end":38.818,"text":"免電或者甚至其他地方的我們自己的年輕人我們自己的孩子他們就是這樣被扣的所以台灣怎麼會就這樣這不需要跟他們什麼勸導或什麼他就是不可以所以這個應該立即就要做這個部分我們強烈要求剛剛主席也做了"},{"start":51.406,"end":53.748,"text":"為什麼來念書的學生會先跟學校借錢?就你們掌握的資訊,為什麼?"},{"start":75.238,"end":98.149,"text":"我初步的了解有些學校大家在海外招生的時候他知道說我們是補助學費了但是第一期的生活費因為他還沒進入實習第一期的前三個月還沒進入實習不會有收入那還有個原因是部分家庭因為清寒到連第一張機票還買不起"},{"start":99.749,"end":100.99,"text":"委員長我記得我們在談的時候我們的像這樣的一個專班的學生他甚至生活費其實是不需要付的"},{"start":125.257,"end":130.262,"text":"沒有沒有沒有我們是說他的生活今天他現在的問題是在第一期因為第一期剛進來的兩個月三個月還不能進到實習現場特別找這樣的學生那來就已經有缺錢的狀況現在我們要回到我們這個但是這不是全面的是部分而已部分家庭比較清寒所以我們"},{"start":147.86,"end":161.411,"text":"委員長聽完我的話因為你如果是部分的學生有比較可能生活狀況不好的那他跟學校借貸也不會是全面的可是學校是全部的學生所以我也覺得不應該對"},{"start":162.732,"end":181.887,"text":"所以不應該不是我們說還要匯教育部為什麼要匯教育部因為主管機關就是教育部那個不是主管機關的問題人是你們找進來的所以這個跟教育部已經沒有關係就這個部分而且就你理解掌握的狀況是少數有欠錢的"},{"start":182.648,"end":188.37,"text":"學生那他為什麼會這樣缺錢而且才第一期的生活費還有包括機票錢為什麼去找這樣子的學生明明他來我們這裡念書的條件並不是真的感覺不是真的要念書的可是你卻是找這樣的學生這是我們在這裡強烈要求他馬上就應該要返還不然這樣的學校你不可以再用而且你未來的學生也不可以再到這個學校"},{"start":209.115,"end":226.445,"text":"我們在今天的報告裡面有看到我們整個計畫尤其是這個部分就是說我們的海青班跟產學攜手合作的僑生專班這個部分在過去我們看到前兩次105年到108年"},{"start":230.256,"end":238.494,"text":"那時候大概總經費這都是4年的計畫嘛總經費是3億8千4百萬左右"},{"start":239.71,"end":267.203,"text":"然後109到112年他的總經費是十億五千萬五千八百萬他的成長幅度高達漲幅高達百分之一百七十五是然後他增加可是他的計劃也增加六億七千多萬是我想請教一下109年到112年那時候疫情發生比較嚴重的時候我們的這個招生的狀況都還是更好嗎因為他的他的"},{"start":268.587,"end":277.491,"text":"金費的那個那時候還是有微幅增加有還有微幅增加那委員我們真正預算規模增加是從2021年之後我們是2022年到2025年這四年22232425這四年的中期計劃總計是36億"},{"start":291.696,"end":295.577,"text":"那是我現在要說的嘛就是你112年到115年我們的計劃裡面變成36億你從不是是4年加起來36億越後面會越高我剛剛講的也是都是4年4年105年那個也是4年那個總經費是3億多嘛那你現在的4年是變到36億多了"},{"start":314.562,"end":314.762,"text":"委員長徐佳青"},{"start":345.583,"end":364.121,"text":"我們看一下你計劃要招生海青班4800人然後產學攜手合作僑生專班要兩萬一千多人他主要的目的是要累計留用的學士以上像這樣的僑生專班"},{"start":366.414,"end":390.747,"text":"那我們每年花這麼多在你們的計劃裡面他僑生專班要兩萬一千多人這個來源是什麼因為寫僑生專班啊對我們事實上目前的僑生人數不止這些還有一般大專生一般大專生大概就是就我們的問題就好了專班的部分有三種專班嘛三種專班你的僑生專班"},{"start":393.829,"end":405.293,"text":"高達兩萬一千多沒有沒有不是不是委員那個是總加總的是指這十年來加總的數字到目前是兩萬多那為什麼要編36億多你沒有那麼多人你為什麼要編36億多委員有啊我們今年一口氣已經到六千多啦每一年的學費"},{"start":414.836,"end":416.918,"text":"委員為什麼是這樣加總不是你回答我們的問題這樣子會比較大家會比較清楚對我現在要講因為一個學生是3加4的話念7年嘛那7年的前3年學費都是我補助的所以123年級會持續增加這一年是2000一年再4000變6000不要去講7年因為我講3年就好了3年就好了"},{"start":437.353,"end":437.833,"text":"學生人口數增加10倍"},{"start":454.4,"end":462.664,"text":"阿他為什麼增加10倍?因為喬生有這麼多嗎?這都是喬生嗎?這些都是喬生嗎?大部分的意思是什麼?因為這是喬生專班,你現在變成10倍的學生數,你說有增加10倍的學生嗎?這些都是喬生嗎?來自於哪裡?各國都有"},{"start":477.17,"end":479.252,"text":"主要在東南亞有7國,越南、印尼、菲律賓、緬甸、柬埔寨、馬來西亞、泰國這7國的僑生他的認定身份怎麼認定?"},{"start":493.844,"end":500.952,"text":"我們早期是說他要提出他有什麼樣的文件但是這兩年呢我們認為這種沒辦法去驗證他文書的正確性我們現在是以華語程度有沒有達到A1級華語就是僑生的意思嗎"},{"start":509.9,"end":510.001,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":530.142,"end":540.855,"text":"現在我們先就這個部分你把那個2萬多人你預計明年要有2萬多人然後要用掉我們36億的預算明年是10億"},{"start":542.637,"end":542.677,"text":"馬文君議員"},{"start":566.88,"end":568.76,"text":"委員長你用的是國家的預算你不要一直什麼承認我現在給你的是數據到你們現在都還在持續下降當中可是你的錢是越編越多而且你現在的對象是"},{"start":592.665,"end":592.705,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":616.027,"end":616.327,"text":"我們希望僑委會就是"},{"start":645.245,"end":645.325,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":340,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時27分）謝謝主席，麻煩請委員長。"],["主席：委員長，請。"],["徐委員長佳青：馬委員，你好。"],["馬委員文君：委員長好。延續剛剛洪委員的問題，這個部分因為是僑委會負責辦理進來的，學校也是僑委會媒介，所以應該立即請他們終止這樣的做法。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：因為這會讓人家聯想到我們有很多被騙到緬甸或者是其他地方的我們自己的年輕人、我們自己的孩子……"],["徐委員長佳青：是的，我會將心比心。"],["馬委員文君：他們就是這樣被扣的。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["馬委員文君：所以臺灣怎麼會做這樣的事？這個不需要跟他們什麼勸導或什麼，它就是不可以。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["馬委員文君：所以這個應該立即就要做。這個部分我們強烈要求，剛剛主席也做了這樣子的一個決議，我們希望知道的學校應該馬上就返還。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["馬委員文君：接下來還要再請教一下，為什麼來念書的學生會先跟學校借錢？就你們掌握的資訊，為什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：根據我初步的瞭解，有些學校在海外招生的時候，知道我們是補助學費，但是生活費方面，因為第1期的前3個月他們還沒進入實習，不會有收入，還有一個原因是部分家庭清寒到連第一張機票都買不起，多數是因為……","還有辦理證件，這樣第1期的費用。近年來我們為了降低這種學校去招生時的……"],["馬委員文君：委員長，我記得我們在……"],["徐委員長佳青：所以我們現在有請台商會成立基金會來協助。"],["馬委員文君：我記得我們在談的時候，像這樣一個專班的學生，他甚至生活費其實是不需要付的喔！"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有、沒有、沒有，我們是說他的生活津貼。他現在的問題是在第1期，因為第1期剛進來的兩個月、三個月，還不能進到實習現場。"],["馬委員文君：所以特別找這樣的學生，他們來的時候就已經有缺錢的狀況。現在我們要回到這個計畫的部分……"],["徐委員長佳青：但是這不是全面的，是部分而已……"],["馬委員文君：部分，他為什麼會……"],["徐委員長佳青：部分家庭比較清寒，所以我們……"],["馬委員文君：委員長聽完我的話，如果是部分學生的生活狀況可能比較不好，他跟學校借貸也不會是全面的……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：可是學校是全部學生的護照……"],["徐委員長佳青：對，所以我也覺得不應該。"],["馬委員文君：所以不應該，可是你們不是說還要會教育部，為什麼要會教育部？這個部分你們馬上就應該處理，它如果不行……"],["徐委員長佳青：因為主管機關就是教育部。"],["馬委員文君：那個不是主管機關的問題，人是你們找進來的，所以那個跟教育部沒有關係，而且就你理解、掌握的狀況，是少數有欠錢的學生，他為什麼會這樣缺錢？而且才第1期的生活費，還包括機票錢，為什麼去找這樣子的學生？明明他來我們這裡感覺並不是真的要念書的，可是你卻找這樣的學生。我們在這裡強烈要求，它馬上就應該要返還，不然，這樣的學校，你不可以再用，而且你未來的學生也不可以再到這幾個學校……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們在今天的報告裡面有看到整個計畫，尤其是海青班及產學攜手合作僑生專班這個部分，我們看到前兩次，105年到108年那時候的總經費，這都是4年的計畫嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["馬委員文君：總經費是3億8,400萬左右，109年到112年的總經費是10億5,800萬，它的成長幅度（漲幅）高達175%……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：它的計畫也增加六億七千多萬……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：我想要請教一下，109年到112年那時候疫情比較嚴重，我們這個招生狀況更好嗎？因為它的經費預算……"],["徐委員長佳青：那時候還是有微幅增加，有，還有微幅增加。委員，我們真正預算規模增加是從2021年之後，我們2022年到2025年這4年（2022、2023、2024、2025這4年）的中期計畫總計是36億，所以……"],["馬委員文君：那是我現在要說的，就是112年到115年你們的計畫裡面變成36億，你們從……"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，是4年加起來36億……"],["馬委員文君：對啦！我知道，我剛剛講的……"],["徐委員長佳青：越後面會越高。"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛講的也都是4年、4年……"],["徐委員長佳青：是的、是的。"],["馬委員文君：105年那個也是4年，總經費是三億多，你現在的4年是編到三十六億多，它的漲幅幾乎是10倍以上……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，36億是分在4年……"],["馬委員文君：我知道啦！我剛剛講的105年到108年的也是4年……"],["徐委員長佳青：105年的時候沒有中期計畫，那個只有該年度而已……"],["馬委員文君：沒有啦！你是那個計畫的名稱不一樣，可是對象是一樣，做的事情是一樣的，所以……"],["徐委員長佳青：是一樣，沒錯。"],["馬委員文君：我現在講的是你105年到108年那時候4年是編三億多，你現在的4年是編三十六億多……"],["徐委員長佳青：是、是、是。"],["馬委員文君：對。我們看一下，你計畫要招生，海青班要4,800人，產學攜手合作僑生專班要二萬一千多人，它主要的目的是要留用學士以上的，像這樣的僑生專班，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["馬委員文君：我們每年花這麼多，在你們的計畫裡面，僑生專班要二萬一千多人，這個來源是什麼？因為你寫「僑生專班」，我們有那麼多僑生嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：事實上我們目前的僑生人數不只這些，還有一般大專生，一般大專生大概就是……"],["馬委員文君：就我們的問題就好了，你現在……"],["徐委員長佳青：專班的部分有三種專班，三種專班……"],["馬委員文君：對，你的僑生專班有高達二萬一千多人嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有、沒有，不是、不是，委員，那個是加總的，是指這10年來加總的數字，到目前是2萬多……"],["馬委員文君：那為什麼要編三十六億多，沒有那麼多人，你為什麼要編三十六億多？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，有啊！我們今年一口氣已經到六千多了，這個每一年的學費會……"],["馬委員文君：明年有多少？明年有多少？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，為什麼是這樣加總……"],["馬委員文君：委員長，不是，你回答我們的問題，這樣大家會比較清楚，就是你編的36億……"],["徐委員長佳青：對，我現在要講，因為一個學生是3加4的話，念7年嘛！"],["馬委員文君：對。"],["徐委員長佳青：7年的前3年學費都是我補助的，而且1、2、3年級會持續增加……"],["馬委員文君：委員長……"],["徐委員長佳青：如果第1年是2,000，明年再4,000，變6,000……"],["馬委員文君：委員長，你先不要去講7年，因為你編的……"],["徐委員長佳青：我講3年就好了，3年就好了……"],["馬委員文君：我現在要問它的差異在哪裡，你之前那個4年的計畫只有三億多……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["馬委員文君：現在變成三十六億多的原因，把這個原因講出來就好了，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：原因就是這個學生人口數增加10倍。"],["馬委員文君：它為什麼增加10倍？"],["徐委員長佳青：因為我們專班……"],["馬委員文君：僑生有這麼多嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：有、有、有，我們……"],["馬委員文君：這都是僑生嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們前幾年是……"],["馬委員文君：這些都是僑生嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，大部分都是僑生，因為……"],["馬委員文君：「大部分」的意思是什麼？因為你是僑生專班，學生數現在變成10倍，你說原因是增加10倍的學生嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：對、對、對。"],["馬委員文君：這些都是僑生嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：來自於哪裡？"],["徐委員長佳青：各國都有。"],["馬委員文君：哪幾國？"],["徐委員長佳青：主要在東南亞，有7國……"],["馬委員文君：哪7國？"],["徐委員長佳青：越南、印尼、菲律賓、緬甸、柬埔寨、馬來西亞、泰國，這7國為主。"],["馬委員文君：這7國僑生的身分怎麼認定？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們早期是說他要提出他有什麼樣的文件，但是這兩年我們認為這種沒辦法去驗證他文書的正確性，我們現在是以華語程度有沒有達到A1級……"],["馬委員文君：所以只要會講華語就是僑生的意思嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們現在是以這個來認定，因為……"],["馬委員文君：就是會講華語就是僑生的意思嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：是的、是的。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們編列三億多的國家預算要讓他們來這裡念書，還有產學合作，我們的學生數是增加10倍，是嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：是的、是的。"],["馬委員文君：不好意思！主席。","現在我們先就這個部分，你把你預計明年要有二萬多人要用掉我們36億的預算這個部分……"],["徐委員長佳青：明年是10億。"],["馬委員文君：你是4年計畫，你不用去算……"],["徐委員長佳青：4年，第1年3億，第2年5億，第3年……"],["馬委員文君：你編的計畫就是36億……"],["徐委員長佳青：總計4年。"],["馬委員文君：委員長，所以你不要再去講明年是多少，我們現在看的就是4年、4年，之前就4年三億多，你現在4年三十六億多……"],["徐委員長佳青：這是我們第一次編4年的。"],["馬委員文君：告訴我們所有的國人，你們為什麼要編這樣的預算，因為我們本來的對象是僑生……"],["徐委員長佳青：這對於我們培養人才和未來的人才培育很重要。"],["馬委員文君：好，你說培養人才，你知道你的畢業人數從110年的45%到112年降到36%，所以……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，那個早期是在實驗計畫，所以很多不是很成熟，我承認……"],["馬委員文君：委員長，你用的是國家的預算，你不要一直什麼承認，我現在給你的是數據，這個到現在都還在持續下降當中，可是你的錢是越編越多，而且你現在的對象是任何人只要會華語就好了，就可以來我們這裡一邊念書，還有生活費，還有學雜費的補助，還有……"],["徐委員長佳青：實習津貼。"],["馬委員文君：實習津貼是工廠、企業還有服務的單位給他們的，那這些單位為什麼要用這樣的人力？這個部分跟我們剛剛講的一起討論，好不好？就你把人帶進來以後，他被扣了護照，他是怎麼樣的學習狀況，請給我們一份完整的報告……"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝馬委員，好的。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝……"],["主席：委員會共同關心啦！"],["馬委員文君：好……"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["馬委員文君：主席，也順便再要求一點，就是從三億多變成三十六億多，增加的對象有多少人？他們大概是分配到哪幾個學校，還有哪幾個工作單位？也希望一併給委員會，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。","我們希望僑委會，不管3億或36億，那個效益分析要讓人民知道，因為那個畢竟是納稅人的錢，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["主席：好，請坐。","接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":232,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","洪申翰","馬文君","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","林憶君","陳永康","黃仁","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","賴惠員"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2024-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1139102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139102_00003"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}