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謝謝主席其實經過大家這麼多的發言之後我就說了這個財劃法本來就應該可以集思廣益 精益求精那麼在前面幾位委員還特別質疑有關於中央和地方的財政自治的部分 自治事項的分配"},{"start":25.376,"end":51.286,"text":"那我一直講就說非常歡迎我們很多位委員關心財劃法但是呢請大家也多要用功一下啦因為事實上比如大家提到的地方制度法地方制度法第18條、第19條、第20條對於中央和地方的自治事項其實都列明列得非常清楚是具體的羅列"},{"start":53.14,"end":56.482,"text":"那另外在這個財化法剛才有講到說這個有沒有違反我們財政紀律法因為事實上不管是我們的憲法或者是我們的地方制度法剛才說了其實就已經非常明確的"},{"start":74.955,"end":83.964,"text":"告訴大家我們的稅分國稅、省稅、縣稅也有分中央財政和國稅其實"},{"start":86.894,"end":92.839,"text":"在我們的《財化法》開宗明義就是根據中華民國憲法來制定的所以之前還會有說這有沒有違憲的問題我真的覺得不要什麼萬物都要去釋憲 釋憲是上癮了因為《財化法》雖然有25年沒有修正"},{"start":108.991,"end":127.834,"text":"但是,它不是一部完全創新的法律,它是一個舊法。過去在憲法、在地方制度法,我剛才講,包含憲法裡面所規定相關的中央和地方的"},{"start":128.775,"end":132.318,"text":"職務、職權以及自治事項都講得非常的清楚所以修正財劃法沒有任何違憲違法的問題那另外大家也講到說哎呀"},{"start":144.466,"end":170.728,"text":"你們現在這個財化法有沒有什麼財政紀律法令找財源的問題從明年開始我們地方議會我想我不曉得各位委員記不記得我們地方議會的明代知己條例的修正我們地方明代的助理我們都薪資把它調高因為長期也是20多年都沒有調薪"},{"start":171.849,"end":184.893,"text":"那麼行政院也提出相關的版本。行政院也沒有提出說提高地方民代知己條例助理薪水有什麼一個"},{"start":186.997,"end":213.389,"text":"特殊的財源替代的財源所以我們在上個會期在所有不分政黨各黨派的委員都支持下然後提高了我們地方民代的知己條例在這樣的狀況之下也沒有違法也沒有違反財政紀律法的問題所以在這邊正本清源"},{"start":214.309,"end":230.937,"text":"大家關心我們很歡迎但是呢相關的財劃法的修正它本來就是一部已經存在的法律我們只是把它相關的中央和地方的財源分配來做調整既無違法更沒有違憲"},{"start":235.399,"end":251.546,"text":"如果大家不理解的話建議大家可以去參考憲法的107條還有我們財化法的開宗明義的總綱就已經告訴你這是依據憲法所制定的法律以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156480","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156480","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408ca605c1d1645851e4c3126a5d15bfb660bc786d54ae732abff111285ee9a4ebd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"16:21:56 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謝謝主席我絕對不會超時但是我也不需要主席的回答跟評論 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156479","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156479","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408e8f42f89866d31d94c3126a5d15bfb660bc786d54ae732abb4272b109c97fcf25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"16:18:22 - 16:21:37","影片長度":"00:03:15","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T16:18:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T16:21:37+08:00","duration":195,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":62.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.603468750000005,"end":157.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.71096875,"end":191.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.34284375000001,"end":193.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.97534375,"end":194.41409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.62,"end":30.954,"text":"謝謝主席我再次強調其實根據我們的財政收支劃分法的一個精神其實就在各級政府的財政收支的關係要被明確的劃分然後才能夠均衡區域的一個發展那其實上一次其實我已經在這個地方講過了就每一個地方他們的權重跟他們所重視的指標其實是不一樣的扣除掉20幾個"},{"start":38.359,"end":61.134,"text":"五十二個指標當中我們要找到共識的也只有五個指標相對的來講就是90%是沒有共識在沒有共識的情況之下到底我們的財劃法到底急著修是在修什麼意思吼那另外我剛剛有特別提到其實地方要提升自己的財政的能力的方法不是只有從中央挖錢捏"},{"start":62.675,"end":87.627,"text":"不是只有把分配的金額拉高就好了耶這也還包含所謂的地方制度法、公債法還有地方稅法的通則不是只修財劃法就可以解決所有的問題那中央地方其實透過不同的一個指標要確保資源公平、分配、良好的財政紀律不是只要求我要權利我都沒有義務"},{"start":88.847,"end":100.59,"text":"這個是不對的喔那我想呢其實剛剛有特別很多的委員也都有提到如果照藍白線型的一個版本要應修財劃法其實就會造成所謂的強者橫強比方說台北市多了3%也就是他會多了200多億那請問服務員更廣大人口數更多的新北市呢好"},{"start":114.193,"end":121.295,"text":"那在講到114年度的中央總預算還不包括已經編列補助地方的5,412億跟義務要支出的1兆8,144億原本中央還可以用的財源是7,769億但藍白搶走了4,080億影響到了什麼?托育政策"},{"start":135.679,"end":154.364,"text":"國家跟你一起養0到6歲國家跟你一起養長照3.0租金的補助國防的預算地方所謂的計劃性的補助還有學生的學費的補助請問地方拿走了這麼多錢這些我剛剛念的他們可以負擔嗎?他們可以有這樣的權責嗎?再來講到衛福部的部分"},{"start":157.762,"end":184.753,"text":"很多人在提到說建保建保如果也從中央的預算被稀釋掉請問建保還包含其他像是營養午餐的一個補貼連同我們教育政策在一直在強調的員額的補助特教助理員的補助還有離島65歲以上的老人的補助還有中低收入戶未滿18歲的兒少的補助這都是要從中央來支應啊"},{"start":186.955,"end":189.942,"text":"請問我們中央的錢被拿走只剩下3000多億我還夠吃硬這些嗎?以上"}]}},{"id":"156478","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156478","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4082351dee917ac550e4c3126a5d15bfb660bc786d54ae732ab444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"16:14:53 - 16:18:00","影片長度":"00:03:07","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T16:14:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T16:18:00+08:00","duration":187,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8703437500000002,"end":48.681593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.002218750000004,"end":146.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.13034375,"end":185.53784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.291,"end":0.553,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2.129,"end":10.875,"text":"今天有委員說中央急錢又急權不顧地方政府的財政狀況地方政府像乞丐一樣因此要中央每年大幅釋出財源實際上是這樣其實從2015年到2023年地方自籌財源這樣最初比率每年都有呈現遞減而且地方政府長短期負債逐年都在下降"},{"start":32.009,"end":38.418,"text":"這表示中央對地方財源運輸是逐年在增加的尤其明年更是來到創新高來到1兆151億比馬政府時代的5506億多出了一倍的補助那剛剛范雲委員也說了中央透過"},{"start":49.133,"end":56.516,"text":"分配款、補助款、預助地方的財源整體地方財源已經由2012年的短處589億到2023年剩餘的648億那尤其近5年都是剩餘的這個狀況那當然各地方政府的這個狀況有很大的差異那重點就是過去8年來整體地方政府的財政狀況有很大的這個改善"},{"start":72.122,"end":75.465,"text":"那本席要再度的強調本席絕對支持大家就事論事針對25年來未修的財劃法審慎的做這個溝通、研究、會商那尤其是對於這個分配10個指標的權重呢那我們必須都要取得這個共識之後呢進行更合乎現況"},{"start":93.682,"end":101.03,"text":"與未來發展的修法。再來本席剛剛早上有提到目前委員會共提出22個這個草案的版本經過四算之後中央財源釋出金額從328億元到7633億不等差異是非常大的舉個例子來講"},{"start":114.483,"end":130.642,"text":"假設如果我們是按照國民黨團的這個版本的話修法後各級地方政府獲配財源將由現在的4000多億暴增到9900億那如果中央的財源大幅釋出到地方請問我們的勞保我們的勞健保"},{"start":133.445,"end":156.512,"text":"還有老農今天誰要來負擔?這個有沒有做討論?那還有交通建設、教育經費、社福醫療還有針對未來氣候變遷我們可能面對的一些相關的防洪、治水、救災、重建預算這些錢要從哪裡來?那還有中國軍事威脅不斷,國軍出勤率增加"},{"start":157.812,"end":164.117,"text":"維持戰備更是需要的經費來支應這些相關的預算將會受到非常大的壓縮這個問題不是應該要好好來做討論嗎?其實現在最緊要的還是攸關3兆1250億的114年度總預算案2025年新增的預算到現在都還沒有著落我們就趕著要來修這個財劃法這不是本末倒置嗎?"}]}},{"id":"156485","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156485","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4087c4fb82b28ab6d094c3126a5d15bfb660bc786d54ae732ab0911e5930497b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"16:48:53 - 16:51:53","影片長度":"00:03:00","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra 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那沈伯陽第二次的會議詢問那這邊我覺得還是第一個因為我們還是在程序那這個會議詢問我還是要跟主席還是剛剛各位委員其實也提醒過了就是說呢我們不盡量評論這個詢問的部分但詢問如果是內容的部分應該沒什麼問題啦譬如說像以前會議詢問我們有時候會說今天這個冷氣有點冷啊那可能主席就會才是議事人員要處理但是你不可能就開始講說"},{"start":30.676,"end":56.649,"text":"這個冷氣那麼冷,這個太冷的話,是不是為什麼不去提案?你為什麼自己不帶溫度計?等等之類的,那個就變成一種評論。所以呢,希望是能夠針對會議詢問的內容來說。那我回到我今天早上,因為早上只有一分鐘,還沒有辦法講完。但今天呢,我們非常重要的一件事情是在於說,這個修法的動機到底為何?如果修法的動機本來不正當的話,其實它就不應該進入到這一個主條。那理由很簡單,剛剛我們可以聽到很多國民黨的委員提到,"},{"start":57.489,"end":75.037,"text":"說這個法律很久沒修了我要告訴大家我們憲法也很久沒修了所以我們是不是也要稍微修一下憲法其實一個法律要不要修正跟這個關係不大如果真的跟財政有關係的話那應該是中央跟地方財政之間的分界我們現在淨收入的比例中央跟地方是62比38"},{"start":76.918,"end":92.933,"text":"如果支出的部分是64比36那就表示它基本上是橫平的狀態如果它是一個橫平的狀態那為什麼現在要從中央挖一塊肉然後把它放下去而且現在還不知道這個肉的用途到底在哪裡"},{"start":93.914,"end":119.361,"text":"而更重要的事情就是我們先不要講說每一個縣市的水平分配今天非常重要的一點是我們6月5號的那一次剛剛這一個黃宏偉委員一直提到說6月5號已經邀請了很多這個各部會還有地方政府來問題是我上網看這個會議本身就是沒有結論啊他就是沒有共識啊更不要講說中央被挖走的這一群人他沒有來發言嘛"},{"start":119.941,"end":141.061,"text":"我們今天可以看到如果按照目前的版本來看的話我們光是國防就要少掉2945億如果今天國防少掉2945億然後全部可以補給地方那地方當然聽起來很開心啊我每個地方多100億每個地方多200億我當然很開心啊那你今天犧牲的是什麼"},{"start":142.902,"end":163.799,"text":"2945億就是你等於要告訴民眾你在6月5號的時候就應該請國防部來說明說是不是IDF跟幻象2000現在都不用維護了今天所有的單兵戰傷救護的急救包採購也都不用了魚叉飛彈現在是不是也不用買了後備學的無線電的補充案是不是也不用做了新式的高校機能的軌跡噴煙裝置是不是也不要了"},{"start":164.139,"end":177.765,"text":"我剛剛念的這一些所有我們現在軍事的投資跟作業維持加起來就已經還不到2900喔這些會全部都沒有那我們今天要很簡單我們就應該跟民眾說明也應該讓各部會來講嘛"},{"start":180.086,"end":185.188,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員許宇甄等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷"}]}},{"id":"156482","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156482","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408fc7f5a3d7bd8dab84c3126a5d15bfb660bc786d54ae732abfefbc25bed5bb6755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"16:31:14 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謝謝主席那我這一次發言我也是希望主席可以針對我們禮拜三"},{"start":15.371,"end":35.931,"text":"等會兒讓你說沒關係我回答就好等一下可以讓你回答我先幫你記起來看你這樣很鬱悶的沒啦沒啦我體諒一下不然什麼我少說給你聽就是說因為我們禮拜三可能會邀請各地方政府來那我們事實上先比較一下"},{"start":36.992,"end":60.912,"text":"每一個委員事實上都有提出財劃法的版本就現在我相信其他未來還會有新的委員會再提出那如果以現在這種版本我們去稍微比較一下第16條就好第16條他事實上就有講到我們先從賴瑞榮委員他就有講到說各地方政府你要去比較的有包括經濟建設設置"},{"start":64.575,"end":80.182,"text":"配合國家整體經濟建設設置高污染產業情形所以這個就需要一個各縣市的數據的比較高污染的產業情形那我們再看國民黨的這個應該是你們的書記長林思銘的委員他事實上也有抓出一個數據叫做"},{"start":93.513,"end":114.546,"text":"他一樣在16條之一的時候他有講到說各縣市的基礎建設落後程度工業及科技業碳排放情形所以這又跑出一個新的要件了叫做基礎建設落後程度工業及科技業碳排放情形他這邊又講出兩個要件剛剛賴樂勇是產業的這個經濟設置高污染的產業的情形"},{"start":123.271,"end":146.008,"text":"那我自己也有提出一個版本我是針對國土計劃法中會對應到的農一、農二以及國保一、國保二那就涉及到了糧食安全以及水源的穩定的一個狀況那各縣市政府所承擔的一個比例那希望這樣的一個比例可以把它在財劃法做出一個相對應的規劃"},{"start":147.729,"end":171.838,"text":"所以事實上我的版本有兩個要件那你再看一下丁學忠委員的版本事實上他在16條之一他也有列舉一個他一樣是用國土計劃法去列屬於農業發展地區的超過50%應優先補助這個是丁學忠委員的用語好我現在列舉的這些狀況"},{"start":173.118,"end":182.099,"text":"事實上,主席這問題就來阿!好,就是禮拜三的時候我們來進行各縣市的時候我們光是這裡我們需要好多資料"},{"start":183.288,"end":209.578,"text":"我們需要各縣市政府說明說好我們這個縣市裡面你們污染產業的分布情形還是林思銘委員說這個建設落後的情形建設落後的定義是什麼我覺得財政部光是這幾個要件要怎麼定義這個要件什麼叫做經濟落後經濟進步又是什麼"},{"start":211.022,"end":219.049,"text":"那我們可以想像的嘛,多池增咖,當然說有的增咖的建設已經比多池更慢,但是...還有什麼工業及科技業碳排放情形"},{"start":232.024,"end":255.294,"text":"這個是科學數據吧?對,這是科學數據嘛,還有剛剛講的,這是林思銘委員的版本嘛,經濟建設落後程度,那個落後程度是什麼?所以我也說,財政部愛心達,這些名詞你們要去思考一下,因為目前沒有行政院的版本,可是有好多名詞,這些名詞未來在主條的時候就會"},{"start":256.354,"end":264.525,"text":"就必須要討論,可是我們現在不能進入主條,就是這些名詞進一步清楚而且這些名詞,現在政府也要去說啊說我這裡的污染狀況怎樣,那我這個地方我的未來和農一農二的比例是怎樣"},{"start":272.655,"end":280.78,"text":"所以這些東西你都要統整出來,我們大家在幾個主條我們才有一個較分析啊,是不是這樣?我回答你的會議詢問,我們來馬上做一個採釋根據這個財政委員所提的,比如說剛提的幾點財政部要聽到,經濟落後還有這個工業及科技的什麼判排放,那如果還有其他你也可以寫下來"},{"start":295.53,"end":300.111,"text":"請財政部在禮拜三把這些東西寫出來。這是他們的人力,不用擔心。剛剛蔡委員說到你們有專心聽,經濟落後的程度,你們要寫出定義,還有工業及科技的碳排放還有哪一點?"},{"start":317.807,"end":321.575,"text":"還有呢?還有呢?還有呢?還有呢?還有呢?還有呢?還有呢?還有呢?還有呢?"},{"start":328.906,"end":338.289,"text":"對阿,這把財政部聽到一說阿,面對著這些方案,那這個會談在討論的時候,我們要怎麼主條阿?禮拜二晚上就要送過來發給這個委員,還有嗎?雙方無言說你就寫給我,我就這樣比較...所以我才會認為說我們需要更多的討論去把這些..."},{"start":348.712,"end":359.5,"text":"除了其他委員你也可以提你的版本,你把所有的定義寫上來,需要定義的我一定會請,這個不會回答地方政府因為是練習單位我們不能勉強啦,但是中央單位我們一定會要求聽到齁,各位不會聽到,如果有關於你們的齁,我剛剛聽到像這個"}]}},{"id":"156477","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156477","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408a6069e0a600dd1ae4c3126a5d15bfb660bc786d54ae732ab06c82363fbb529205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"16:10:04 - 16:14:12","影片長度":"00:04:08","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T16:10:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T16:14:12+08:00","duration":248,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":92.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.14721875000001,"end":125.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.71159375,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.28409375,"end":246.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.18221875,"end":247.73909375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.997,"end":31.783,"text":"謝謝召委首先還是要跟剛剛一樣要先抗議主席今天意識非常的不忠早上中午下午意識規則不斷的變動早上有人一次會議詢問說一分鐘可以講三分鐘可是我跟張雅琳委員不知道是不是因為我們的性別主席覺得沒有特別想要對我們友善一點我們一分鐘到的時候你就直接讓我消音了"},{"start":32.963,"end":46.872,"text":"可是後來男性委員上場的時候不知道為什麼就可以講2到3分鐘所以我想主席除了不斷的評論我們大家之外有嚴重的意識不忠的問題所以待會請主席不要再任意評論本席的發言"},{"start":49.173,"end":67.991,"text":"首先早上我講了就是為什麼不好好的讓大家審慎規劃的第一個原因那現在繼續講第二個原因我想剛剛大家都已經講到就是依照國民黨的版本我們先不要講你們內部的委員差異很大以你國民黨團的版本中央稅入會少4080億中央只剩3600"},{"start":73.877,"end":75.839,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":93.254,"end":113.068,"text":"到112年,就是去年其實地方已經剩餘648億了。那中央財政情勢已經改變的情況下,剛剛沈博洋委員等已經講到,如果依照國民黨團的版本,我們國防、社福等很多的部分都必須被迫刪減超過三分之一。"},{"start":115.41,"end":136.226,"text":"那你說地方相信地方地方要錢可是我要講的是地方財政紀律非常的糟啊因為我們看到我上一次已經講到了非常多的地方光是教育是法定的義務都沒有做好那教育的經費改去做別的部分那我想再講兩個議題地方財政"},{"start":139.248,"end":152.041,"text":"這是紀律非常差還有一個原因是地方的監督常常被縣市首長用某些方式阻斷我以我們國民黨總召復坤級最熟悉的花蓮縣議會來講"},{"start":154.443,"end":176.899,"text":"花蓮縣議會質詢最有力的張美惠議員她在地方的建設建議款上居然被花蓮縣政府審查就是最後一名這是花蓮縣她對願意監督的議員是懲罰的方式新北市剛講到六都新北市的侯友宜也非常有名我們看到媒體已經不止一次報導"},{"start":177.979,"end":198.689,"text":"監督最有力的戴偉山他每年度的議員的地方建議款一千萬居然是年年掛零今年還是跟陳婉瑜兩位都掛零就是因為他監督很有力所以我要講的是地方的財政有嚴重紀律的問題加上監督不足在這樣的情況下我不知道"},{"start":199.269,"end":221.748,"text":"就是你們又能夠讓財政歸地方可是市權又沒有增加那我覺得到目前為止我們沒有看到一個合理的版本再加上這是預算會期我已經不想再譴責主席了這應該是國民黨團對我們主席交代的任務因為你主席你自己的版本陳玉珍的版本是328億跟你們黨團版本又差距甚大"},{"start":225.251,"end":246.287,"text":"所以我的會議詢問就是國民黨團為什麼不好好審預算需要在這個預算會期審這個嚴重沒有基本共識沒有一個理想版本的法案那請主席不要回應我的詢問我是質問國民黨團啦以上 謝謝范委員你是說你做會議詢問但是不要我回答是不是"}]}},{"id":"156481","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156481","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408276119efb8c553284c3126a5d15bfb660bc786d54ae732abd45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"16:26:27 - 16:30:46","影片長度":"00:04:19","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T15:19:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T15:23:30+08:00","duration":235,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.35159375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8072187500000001,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.262218750000001,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.422218750000001,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.374718750000003,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.239093750000002,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.090968750000002,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.570968750000002,"end":30.152843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.76034375,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.14784375,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.73409375,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.81784375,"end":41.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.18409375,"end":46.774718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.213468750000004,"end":52.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.664093750000006,"end":53.001593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.47409375,"end":55.549718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.05971875,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.658468750000004,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.09221875,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.76284375,"end":73.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.94346875000001,"end":75.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.01909375000001,"end":77.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.07784375,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.41471875,"end":94.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.76284375,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.38659375,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.33534375,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":109.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.44846875,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.30471875,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.51096875,"end":115.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.87784375000001,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.20659375000001,"end":131.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.31409375,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":136.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.58346875,"end":137.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.64659375000002,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.35096875000002,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.51971875,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.76971875,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.08159375000002,"end":234.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.54284375,"end":235.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.94346875000002,"end":236.31471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.85,"end":6.073,"text":"我在早上已經跟你談過了所以這個委員的發言你不要去做評論"},{"start":7.452,"end":29.417,"text":"那我剛剛在發言之後,那你竟然說你要修正草案法,你要提案啊,不能只說不做啊。什麼叫做只說不做?你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?不用,你不用回答。你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?你沒有資格去評論其他的委員,說你這是只說不做。同樣的啊,那我可以這樣子評斷你嗎?"},{"start":30.797,"end":51.402,"text":"你金門的陳玉正的委員只說不做!只說不做!只說不做!可以這樣評論你嗎?我不會這樣子評論你!因為我覺得彼此委員要互相的尊重所以請主席在我們講完話之後不要再做任何的評論"},{"start":55.345,"end":67.516,"text":"財劃法按照國民黨版本來看,國民黨版本修完財劃法之後的自有財源,就六度來講,"},{"start":68.817,"end":94.469,"text":"只有台北市修法之後的自有財源佔稅數的比率108%!108%超過了!修法之後的自有財源就是自籌的加上中央的補助的六都裡面只有台北市是108%所以我說啦我們新北的97%那為什麼我們新北的人口數比台北這麼多那就是因為"},{"start":95.769,"end":116.925,"text":"台北有一個3%的精深條款在裡面讓台北的這個如果按照國民黨的版本修完之後他們的自有財源是108%超過了!破百了!那請問一下台北市多出來這些錢要做什麼?蔣威恩有想到了嗎?"},{"start":118.26,"end":130.936,"text":"蔣萬有想到要做什麼嗎?我相信蔣萬是沒有啦蔣萬基本上是一個不做不錯的人他只要不做事帥帥的臉龐就可以去吸引選票了所以基本上你說你要給"},{"start":132.512,"end":155.077,"text":"給台北市給了這麼多錢那請問一下台北市要做什麼我相信台北市沒有想到但是我們新北咧那新北為什麼我們的分配的我們的自有的財源的比例才97%甚至問題是很多啊我只舉就一個修法之後自有財源的比例那更不用說我們中央政府的這一個法定的義務支出"},{"start":155.757,"end":176.351,"text":"有一兆八千億你這一兆八千億是沒有辦法去刪減的因為有很多的各機關的人事費、社會保險支出還有對公立學校的補助等等但是這個法定你不能去削減它那在哪些計畫會受到影響有一些機關的專項計畫就會受到影響那我講最基本的國防的經費國防經費就會受到影響"},{"start":183.215,"end":205.443,"text":"國防基本受到影響的高達2900多億那更不用說還有少子女化的政策還有我們就關於治安的維護等等還有這個中央擴大租金補貼新辦社宅等等這些都是年輕人需要的但是因為你這樣子修了之後必須迫使中央在這些專案的計劃裡面迫使他要計劃"},{"start":206.903,"end":235.016,"text":"他的經費必須要縮減那請問一下國防經費被縮減之後請問是爽到誰?爽到誰?爽到中國啊!就爽到中國嘛!啊所以他們現在就看啊現在就看說台灣的這個台灣財務法到底要怎麼修?而且你們很矛盾的是說明年度的中央這個李坤德偉已經超過了那個要第三輪嗎?謝謝委員已經超過三分鐘五分鐘、六分鐘了接著請"}]}},{"id":"156493","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156493","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408fb2f2cedb827abe64c3126a5d15bfb661614f1b6372c58a4e93912b86ed9a1c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"17:33:16 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T17:39:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T17:44:54+08:00","duration":322,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.69221875,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.489093750000002,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.84596875,"end":35.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.87346875,"end":42.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.11284375,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.454093750000006,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.64971875,"end":146.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.21471875,"end":153.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.64409375,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.96846875,"end":209.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.90534375000001,"end":210.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.85034375,"end":211.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.03159375,"end":213.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.85409375,"end":216.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.11096875,"end":217.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.46096875,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.57471875000002,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.02159375000002,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.29534375,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.59471875000003,"end":256.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.61534375,"end":260.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.54721875,"end":271.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.76909375,"end":274.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.67159375,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.94096875,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.28096875,"end":290.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.03971875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.16159375,"end":300.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.16096875,"end":312.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.81909375000004,"end":304.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.42596875000004,"end":309.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.88096875,"end":312.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.62346875000003,"end":317.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.72471875,"end":314.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.34034375000005,"end":316.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.47096875,"end":319.72784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.711,"end":20.683,"text":"我看到主席笑眯眯我當然就不想看剛剛我聆聽了剛剛幾位委員的高見他們同時講到一句話也就是所謂的中央請客地方買單這八個字"},{"start":23.926,"end":44.458,"text":"這個剛剛對照於我剛才提的所謂的長久以來中央的這個計劃型補助啊常態化的狀況是不是要下放給地方其實是一體兩面啊這就是我之前一再強調的中央跟地方的這個府紀關係要如何形成要如何形成一個所謂的夥伴的關係"},{"start":46.496,"end":73.844,"text":"那麼提到啊所謂的這個城鄉發展計畫當中呢它不過是變了八次名稱每次都是中央的計畫然後補助給地方那我要問那這是中央在請客還是地方在請客啊很顯然不是地方請客嘛那或許有一些案例是屬於地方負擔的比較多這也就是中央跟地方大家要釐清清楚這些事權"},{"start":74.964,"end":100.079,"text":"在制度面上當中有討論的空間這也說為什麼更加印證了我們一再強調再次的呼籲三次的懇求為什麼要把事權放在一起一個最關鍵的一個原因可是我們剛剛聽到主席所裁示的內容當中啊往往都只是找各部門代表來而已"},{"start":101.039,"end":116.842,"text":"其實也沒有真正回應我們說呢,要如何從事權、財權、財權、事權、事權、財權、人與事、事與人之間的一個關聯性當中來做一個整體性、通盤性的一個探討,沒有!"},{"start":117.703,"end":146.261,"text":"沒有的情況底下,背後隱藏一個目的跟規劃不外乎是要趕快的把這一個法條復足於足條討論但是我還是必須說這一個條文當中的內容其實真的是令人杞人一逗我們就直接來談內容當中按照國民黨的版本當中剛剛賴委員提到所謂的3000多億,老實講我沒有看到這個版本"},{"start":147.267,"end":167.405,"text":"是他自己說的,確實有傳聞,聯合報確實有報,但是版本內容還沒出來。黃珊珊委員的版本是2700億,賴委員的版本一下子是3208,也一下子又4028,一下子又5777,但是換算於明年的比例是6612,總共有4個數字之多。"},{"start":170.968,"end":195.318,"text":"讓人家眼花繚亂不知所措到底國民黨是哪個版本但是如果就國民黨的版本條文當中所出來的結果無外乎這修法當中有8個縣市的自有財源稅出比率居然高達100%高達100%包括台北市、宜蘭縣、苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、基隆市、新竹市、金門市很巧"},{"start":196.558,"end":223.683,"text":"這全部 全部 全部 講到金門你就站起來 麥克風聲 金門縣 金門縣 金明縣謝謝你的執政 很巧 這都是南白執政的縣市 這麼好 有夠厲害可是最低的部分呢 在六都當中呢 最少的是哪裡 就是台南 就是台南高雄是第二低 縣市最低的是哪裡 是嘉義"},{"start":225.493,"end":249.749,"text":"還有彭胡就很巧的最高的部分都是藍白執政最低的部分呢全部是綠營執政真是巧妙的設計啊所以我要說的是說這些版本內容當中不是有杞人疑鬥的地方嗎我就在找一個縣市的這個比較來讓主席知道這個版本內容有多麼誇張"},{"start":251.61,"end":276.407,"text":"以台南市來說,它現在人口數是高達186萬人。彰化縣是123萬人。以現行的資金分配的結果修法之後,台南只配到476億,彰化配到510億。人口數多50萬的地方,多63萬的地方,居然還少了34億。"},{"start":278.971,"end":305.513,"text":"這個真的很誇張欸這套數學是怎麼算的啊雖然我叫國文我不叫數學就結果來看我也覺得是不合理嘛不是嗎主席你有沒有到底看過你們未來的版本啊你不覺得很多難以說服外界的規劃嗎為什麼那種版本你還能夠推上台面呢為什麼那種版本還如此青睞呢那你要想一想你要想一想"},{"start":306.013,"end":311.321,"text":"我要告訴你,你要想一想,這個版本只會破壞體制而已啦!"}]}},{"id":"156489","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156489","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca40880271114480430984c3126a5d15bfb661614f1b6372c58a42843dd09ca1b81945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"17:05:45 - 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那我們議事部確定本日議程為繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案另外一個是邀請衛生福利部邱部長針對社區精神病患照護優化進行專題報告．並備質詢"},{"start":1945.362,"end":1970.498,"text":"我先介紹在場的委員李業勤委員王振旭委員陳昭之委員我們介紹出席的歡迎我們邱太元部長心理健康師代理師長鄭淑勳"},{"start":1975.492,"end":1998.852,"text":"保護服務司司長張秀燕社會救治及社公司蘇昭如司長醫事司專門委員郭維中社家屬署長代理署長周道軍"},{"start":2002.116,"end":2006.16,"text":"食藥署副署長莊生宏林金富副署長陳耀瑜會計處處長張玉珍"},{"start":2029.136,"end":2047.844,"text":"行政院主計總署公務預算處專門委員廖玉琳我們先處理衛生福利部的公務預算我剛剛講過了,解凍案那我們先讀"},{"start":2056.045,"end":2066.674,"text":"報告事項二,衛生福利部含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送食品藥物管理署決議五、六及21預算凍結書面報告案,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2071.271,"end":2099.024,"text":"這個解凍案上個禮拜那個有牌但是因為碰到颱風那我這個禮拜是很有誠意的牌啦但是第一案跟第二案跟那個蛋有關所以那個蛋現在還在超市的現在還在爭執上個禮拜還調我們的前農業部長出庭所以我們就是比較單純的第三案"},{"start":2100.12,"end":2116.723,"text":"就是檢訟因為這個案子以前凍結是楊耀有提張玉玟有提上一屆我有瞭解這個衝擊性比較小所以第三案的那個解凍案請問委員有沒有意見要看專題的那個署長你要不要報告一下"},{"start":2131.55,"end":2132.97,"text":"請問陳委員有哪一個?我先"},{"start":2166.261,"end":2183.067,"text":"就是今天書面報告的決議事項就是說我對這個有意見對解凍有意見我可以說明嗎就在這裡說明"},{"start":2186.295,"end":2206.331,"text":"我想說的是我相信我是在未還主委員當中我有最多尊敬的朋友跟曾經共事的朋友好朋友在食藥署但是我覺得是非對錯我今天還是要講出來在解凍報告中有提到說有持續這個是在做我們今年的預算的討論"},{"start":2208.112,"end":2233.57,"text":"持續監測藥品的供應情形還有預先盤點藥品跟原物料的說法但是今年還是發生很多缺藥情形全台灣都知道輸液永豐大廠的輸液違反藥事法勒令停業造成輸液供應大缺貨造成開刀洗腎的問題這麼大大家都那麼擔憂"},{"start":2235.56,"end":2253.191,"text":"那我要講的是食藥署過去查場的時候就知道永豐藥廠他事上有問題的但是一直讓他做大到最後完全停場我知道這件事是前任的署長發生的事情但是因為今天的食藥署的報告裡面完全沒有提到"},{"start":2254.315,"end":2259.6,"text":"這件事發生以後第一線醫療人員到次長的臉書留言說我們缺書意我們需要幫忙但是他用非常嘲諷的口氣說"},{"start":2270.751,"end":2288.821,"text":"某些人在這說話不腰疼啊誰能找到更便宜的我親自到府簽約我給你2000CC那廠商改成你要2000CC我給你500CC你如果說這個缺貨那我也尊重啦請問這是一個堂堂的次長該說的話嗎做錯事還那麼理直氣壯啊500CC跟2000CC相等嗎你沒有開過刀嗎你是婦產科醫師欸所以我覺得是"},{"start":2299.734,"end":2312.064,"text":"報告我其實在兩次質詢部長的時候我有請部長說就是請你們加速所謂的RCA報告就是Root cause analysis就是根本原因分析不能再出現這樣錯況且今年花了幾億你明年又續編11億那今天怎麼讓他過呢這個解凍怎麼讓他過呢其實我很尊敬莊署長他就是要來善後"},{"start":2327.093,"end":2344.192,"text":"本席堅決主張這次再沒有辦法直接在今天解凍那就是要提出一份我覺得是誠實坦誠的報告我們未來就不要再花錢也不要讓這個病人醫師在照顧病人的時候非常有很非常大的擔憂謝謝主席"},{"start":2347.845,"end":2353.207,"text":"我們現在休息兩分鐘,要署長你去跟陳昭之委員說兩分鐘"},{"start":2376.851,"end":2381.575,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2675.258,"end":2699.563,"text":"好謝謝我們陳昭蘇委員有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案請問大家有無異議沒有謝謝大家好無異議那先做一下決定同意動之並提報院會還有陳昭蘇委員要求的請敬書給他報告好謝謝"},{"start":2702.818,"end":2703.24,"text":"接下來我們請邱部長報告時間6分鐘"},{"start":2718.959,"end":2733.669,"text":"主席、各位委員、理事先生今天大宴第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開第7次全體委員會議本部成交列寫報告深感榮幸"},{"start":2735.45,"end":2749.819,"text":"社區精神病患照護優化專題報告進行各位委員不吝會議指教前年本部在行政院的指導下積極推動強化社會安全網計畫整合網絡體系串聯中央地方及民間團體社區組織力量"},{"start":2752.521,"end":2780.084,"text":"其實其從根本減少風險因子接觸個案及家庭為妥善照護精神病人及支持其家庭我們透過的修法、完善體系、部件支援及跨網絡合作等面向周圍妥善地來照顧精神病人的照護那辦理的狀況以分六大面向來報告第一我們首先研修"},{"start":2781.109,"end":2806.095,"text":"精神衛生法規為了更完整促進國人心理健康及照護精神病人以修正精神衛生法並於113年12月14日上路本次修法五大重點強調推動心理健康促進、積極佈建社區心理健康中心多元化社區支援強化病人通報、精進前端預防及危機處理"},{"start":2807.815,"end":2831.673,"text":"強制支援改裁法官保留原則及病人權利保障等。第二,充實精神照護支援,透過醫療網計畫的實施,精神照護支援成長至113年10月底,具有急性慢性精神病床合計20,608床,另外日間醒及住室醒精神"},{"start":2833.414,"end":2858.281,"text":"護健機構共有287家合計10,435床精神護理自家46家合計4917床是病人並請採取門診、急診、住院、日間照護、社區精神護健、急加治療等不同照護方式並透過機構評鑑確保服務品質。第三部件社區心理衛生中心及人力支援為了提供民眾可敬性的心理健康"},{"start":2859.246,"end":2877.937,"text":"服務以及精神病從醫療到社區的NC性照護已經透過社安網第二期計畫補助地方政府部署社區心理心理中心及金融心理衛生專業人力至113年10月底全會議累計佈置52次每一縣市均已至少設有一次"},{"start":2878.917,"end":2880.857,"text":"第4推動社區精神病人照護服務為了協助住院"},{"start":2899.881,"end":2918.971,"text":"精神病人已出院後無控銜接社區關懷體系精神醫療機構應協助病人擬定出院準備計畫轉介至地方政府衛生局提供社區追蹤保護服務本部並定有社區精神病人說案及結案標準分級照護由新衛社官員及公衛護理事"},{"start":2922.332,"end":2938.682,"text":"關懷皇室、醫病人及家庭需求、連結醫療及其他服務資源。第五,強化前端預防及危機處理機制,為了強化社區儀式精神病人通報及處理本部辦理儀式或社區精神病人照護優化計畫。針對網絡"},{"start":2941.583,"end":2965.525,"text":"單位轉介至社區疑似病人提供精神醫療外展評估服務並輔導個案就醫令警察或消防機關執行指導時發現病人或疑似病人有傷害他人或自己或有傷害之餘者應急護送前往就近適當醫療機構就醫另外協助警消人員處理社區疑似精神病人事件"},{"start":2966.225,"end":2985.706,"text":"本部建置Core Center及24小時資訊專線提供處置建議提升護送就醫效能。第六,發展社區精神病人社區支援支持多元方案,補助民間團體及機構辦理精神病友多元社區生活方案發展計畫,以及"},{"start":2987.768,"end":3006.645,"text":"精神病病人及照顧者社區支持服務支援部件計畫共合計90個案．以本部將持續推動社區精神病人照護服務及其部件社區支援保障精神病人權益,支持於社區平等生活並令將督促地方政府"},{"start":3007.566,"end":3026.459,"text":"假想先導民眾正確認識精神疾病,避免將精神病人與社區危機事件連結,使有需求者更難主動尋求醫療協助。本部呈大院各委員指教及監督,在此靜置謝神,並請各位委員繼續予以致辭。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":3032.642,"end":3053.617,"text":"謝謝部長有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在我們開始詢答那剛剛那個解斷案的相關行政人員可以先離席啦那我們做以下宣告本委員會詢答時間"},{"start":3056.307,"end":3083.357,"text":"6加2分鐘,列席委員4分鐘10點30分左右,截止發言登記委員若有書面質詢,請於上會前提出,預期不受理暫定10點半左右,休息10分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案那中午不休息,直接訓導完畢再休息現在請第一位登記委員陳昭芝,訓導"},{"start":3090.589,"end":3092.09,"text":"麻煩邱部長委員長現在有時間跟你說早安早2022年這個精神衛生法修法那引入了社區支持的這個服務的概念等於承認了長期支持的這個病患的重要性並且要求地方政府也提出相應的這個服務我認為這個非常好"},{"start":3120.285,"end":3120.305,"text":"是,謝謝"},{"start":3141.67,"end":3168.492,"text":"那部長我知道心理健康是近年有所謂的精神病有多元社會生活方案社區生活方案的發展計畫那它這個服務形式限制比較少那比較多元那我也認為是一個很棒的方向部長可以看一下這個左圖它的服務項目包括各管服務就業服務社區居住服務還有同儕支持服務可以讓這些需要幫助的精神病有獲得更全面的照顧我也非常肯定這個計畫"},{"start":3169.793,"end":3191.896,"text":"所以這是我第二個肯定部長這就是以來我很少一開始就給他這麼多的肯定這個是對的方向但是我們還是要知道說再好的計畫都還有要進步的地方那有兩個點我想請部長或市長參考第一個我覺得總預算是不足的因為你目前現在每一個團體只能提一個案"},{"start":3192.757,"end":3206.543,"text":"提個案那非常可惜我覺得這個部分可以到衛環委員會來討論應該給的應該給民眾的幫忙就是說我覺得像本席一定支持就是說你這個預算編的不夠那麼限制一個團體議案"},{"start":3207.904,"end":3233.889,"text":"第二個問題就是說民間組織他需要每年重新提案部長就會讓團體跟這個在其中的工作服務者他會掉一顆心的懸著一顆心的他不知道明年下一年還能不能繼續做這個服務那能不能做下去我們都知道服務不中斷是一個很重要的原則所以想請問部長是不是可能在一個前提就是我們執行好這個執行成果的把關"},{"start":3235.009,"end":3235.069,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們這個"},{"start":3259.682,"end":3259.702,"text":"致詢問"},{"start":3280.666,"end":3286.109,"text":"對於這個藥物治療部分,就長效的這些藥物幫助這病人,我們那邊都OK的。那你這裡呢?那個比例已經相當高了。對,這是醫療,但是生活上的幫助是更重要的。對,所以我們是這樣子,我們在115年期可行嗎?"},{"start":3308.223,"end":3315.889,"text":"那你需要預算大家可以幫忙啊我們為了擴大去爭取穩定的裁員從115年病入我們把他病入這個照顧病入身心障礙照顧服務支援部這個計畫從113年到117年這個計畫然後針對精神病人及其家族以5年內將會投資有13億這些事非常重要我們會注意到他的一個聯繫性"},{"start":3333.203,"end":3336.325,"text":"心理健康是他現在在執行廣見這個社區心理衛生中心他的內容很多但我就不一一唸出來包括辦個案處理心理衛生促進教育訓練等等等等等等他其實是包含很多我覺得有點包山包海很辛苦"},{"start":3358.803,"end":3380.571,"text":"那但是所以就會有專家會指出說那我們都要做到什麼程度那目前不太明確那例如這個司法精神醫學會理事長楊天偉院長他有一點隱憂就是說心理衛生中心工作人員他大部分年資比較淺那新法的實踐有一點像把蔡淼推到最前線去當狙擊手"},{"start":3381.491,"end":3393.563,"text":"然後找出這個散落在社區他需要幫助的人那部長、司長針對楊院長提出的他是專家嘛提出的這個隱憂衛福部或這個健康司、新建司有沒有什麼改進的方針"},{"start":3394.602,"end":3423.721,"text":"好謝謝委員的關心也謝謝楊院長長期以來對司法精神方面的投入那因為心理健康中心心理衛生中心我們是這幾年的一個比較新興的一個努力的計畫對於方向呢所以基本上比較難拚到所謂有困難資深那當然我們不是說之前的不好而是說很多這個人生很多有一些歷練之後也許他能夠幫助的而且你內容太廣了太廣了"},{"start":3424.181,"end":3443.376,"text":"我會不會請那個我們那個新建室代理市長 鄭市長謝謝委員關切我們的這個新衛中心的這個人員如果年資太之前的話恐怕沒有能力來推動這麼繁雜的業務那事實上我們在新衛中心裡面我們部件的除了我們的這個心理師、診療師、護理師"},{"start":3445.297,"end":3446.738,"text":"還有關懷訪視員之外還有這個心理衛生社工其實他是多職類的那我們會透過說的這個專業的訓練一些不同專業的人才一起來做我們也會自督導來協助帶領這些戰友們"},{"start":3460.851,"end":3462.132,"text":"部長我上週有進行預算總質詢提了很多問題但時間不夠還是要繼續請教部長部長今天健保說高推估增加大概5.5%這樣有500多億然後還有說主計長說的"},{"start":3485.413,"end":3511.624,"text":"他又說這個健保這個財務協助方案有300多億加起來800多億已經可以來補足點值0.95但是部長我不知道是主計長是被衛福部騙了還是他信口開河部長您知道不是這樣嘛那個非協商因素500多億每年都有啊那個跟點值不相關啊但是這300多億裡面當中有很多是專款欸那個專款就用完還流入流回像罕病啊還有變了11億的那個生理食鹽水啊"},{"start":3512.324,"end":3514.286,"text":"總諮詢社會請教部長說我看不到啊所以我想第一個喊病的這個狀況可不可能留在"},{"start":3530.68,"end":3530.7,"text":"致詢。"},{"start":3550.995,"end":3570.092,"text":"所以你如果這些不做的話那看不出為什麼明年6月底有辦法達到0.95好嗎?部長,因為你要回答我知道有點困難我這個有些可能先回答一下好不好第一個就是說生理生水因為以前真的是很便宜那在這次談價以後共理會議裡面可能從20幾塊現在已經40幾塊嘛"},{"start":3573.815,"end":3587.007,"text":"那所以整個成本就增高,我們不能去負責擠壓到總額嘛,所以我就拜託衛生福利部,拜託鄉親,因為這11億,既開這11億,你如果沒有政府補助,就是在健保要出路。"},{"start":3591.751,"end":3610.165,"text":"部長,我想醫界最擔心的就是請你不要再用斷頭攤扣這個比較誇張的手法來努力讓點值,因為大家最怕攤扣啊,最怕斷頭啊,到了額度就斷掉啊,然後到這個不到目標就事先叫大家繳回錢啊但是你不能因為要達到我們期待的0.95,然後把攤扣弄得更誇張"},{"start":3616.75,"end":3616.85,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":3631.766,"end":3635.628,"text":"主席一直在看我,他覺得我該下去,我今天話太多了。"},{"start":3655.02,"end":3655.841,"text":"請陳慶威委員質詢"},{"start":3682.666,"end":3685.208,"text":"謝謝主席、各位委員、各位官員。我又想請部長,謝謝。"},{"start":3691.778,"end":3721.138,"text":"早部長我要問的問題還沒有還沒有還沒有我要問的問題是跟我們的媽媽手冊孕婦手冊還有寶寶手冊兒童手冊比較相關的一開始因為這個是許許多多臨床個案反映到的那剛好最近我辦公室也有一位同仁晉升為二寶媽好我們現在既然少子化我們就是要鼓勵大家多生我在這邊跟部長講幾個例子這個螢幕前面如果有媽媽在看一定非常有感覺"},{"start":3722.058,"end":3736.989,"text":"今天呢他這個孕婦手冊他一旦懷孕喔他要隨身攜帶這一本好那他會遇到什麼問題比如說他去三天兩夜的花東之旅可是他不一定會帶著嘛結果他到當地的診所去"},{"start":3737.91,"end":3739.692,"text":"衛生福利部長針對〈社區精神病患照護優化》進行專題報告．"},{"start":3757.432,"end":3775.458,"text":"如果說他今天是二寶媽,他一邊懷孕一邊帶著大寶,他還要帶一本寶寶手冊,你知道這兩個有多重嗎?部長等一下給你看看起來好像很重你也有穿過這個嘛我有養三個小孩,這個我都抱過"},{"start":3776.698,"end":3778.099,"text":"部長有沒有考慮要把它科技化?"},{"start":3806.433,"end":3829.038,"text":"一定要朝著外面來努力。好,你什麼時候?因為是這樣子啦,因為我們當然現在很簡單嘛,現在你去打疫苗也是都要滿意度,上面都用QR code。那我不曉得那個QR code有那麼多病人可以用嗎?會用嗎?所以在國健署這邊就是希望先兩個病型。"},{"start":3835.883,"end":3846.793,"text":"我這邊建議改成電子化有什麼好處?你想要孕婦友善育兒友善你就不要人家一整天都要帶著這兩本趴趴照很重"},{"start":3847.97,"end":3876.093,"text":"那它也很難移動再來如果你可以把它電子化所有的數據上雲端如果一個婦產科醫師很忙小兒科醫師很忙但是數據上去了AI其實可以及時抓到它是不是高風險的認成糖尿病高風險的認成高血壓或是這個寶寶生長曲線是不是有點問題反而有預警的效果你認為呢這跟你們加一顆的概念也是差不多啊"},{"start":3876.667,"end":3902.152,"text":"我想電子化之下一定可以更周全那個也達到我們在怎麼樣讓他更得到保護那在實務上怎麼樣去讓大家方便然後又能夠達到我們的期望我想這個比如說你剛剛你用這個預防接種時程表這個就很有趣啦因為我們每天在看這個當時在養小孩的時候"},{"start":3903.345,"end":3926.416,"text":"每天我都很喜歡看這個第一天我這個是去周正前醫師打這個針下一季我到蘇星前醫師那邊打這個針第三天我到張玉霄那邊打這個針其實有一點親近感但是這個時代在改變這個你如果用APP你也都可以看得到"},{"start":3927.655,"end":3949.626,"text":"你也都看得到是誰打這個針,懂嗎?對,我知道,我是說他們的每個記錄、筆記、印章都琳瑯滿目我們當家長的會覺得很有成就感,因為給小孩子打得這麼完整部長可不可以稍微問當然我們要習慣到,我這個是有點講過去的,但是現在的時代一定是講電子"},{"start":3952.788,"end":3973.741,"text":"可不可以給我們一個簡單的進程,你大概什麼時候可以找這些相關的部會來研擬?是不是考慮把他...這個應該不會很困難嘛,一直有在研究嘛我覺得也不要因為最近真的是年底太多又是..."},{"start":3974.918,"end":3978.46,"text":"當然我們今天會在這邊討論就是因為有一位未成年的加害人他同時有身心障礙也有精神疾病他去侵犯了一位未成年的受害人"},{"start":4001.554,"end":4001.754,"text":"先來跟大家講一下第一"},{"start":4029.811,"end":4035.568,"text":"這個不管是加害人或者是受害人都是未成年不就跟衛福部很有關係"},{"start":4037.358,"end":4065.438,"text":"其次呢他領身心上愛手冊也跟衛福部很有關係他做了性相關的犯罪也跟衛福部很有關係最後他因為這個精神疾病的問題他有可能在審判的過程需要精神鑑定有可能被判刑之後需要司法精神病房或者是復健等等的這也跟衛福部很有關係請問部長為什麼至今你們都沒有任何的官方聲明還有解釋呢"},{"start":4066.189,"end":4084.515,"text":"好,非常謝謝委員對民眾受到這樣的一件事件的關心也特別感謝趙偉排這樣的一個社會大家關注的主題那有關於這個精神病這件事情,其實"},{"start":4085.816,"end":4106.33,"text":"我們過去多年來尤其我們在我也在立法院這些年來我們一個很重要的事情就是希望精神病不要被汙名化到時候什麼事情都怪精神病其實不一定是所以第一他報告他的心理說他有精神病其實他是身心障礙"},{"start":4107.17,"end":4107.29,"text":"這已經有報導在這個"},{"start":4123.12,"end":4146.699,"text":"桃園市議員還有桃園市議員是貴黨的市議員以及還有桃園市政府等等都已經有稍微的描述一下他在精神科有多次就診並且有用藥的記錄等等我們今天也沒有要做獵巫或者是說巫民化等等的我們只是單純想要關心我們應該要如何在社區之內輔導他們並且幫助他們協助他們"},{"start":4149.321,"end":4155.681,"text":"好在這邊就要講到您的報告啦這個是您官網裡面講到的喔"},{"start":4156.738,"end":4181.602,"text":"好您的報告裡面啊今天我覺得很可惜的是你有提到你們的社區心理衛生中心2024年52處一直到明年年底會有71處看起來量能是持續的增加但是這個不光是蓋房子你們人數雖然增加但是有一個很重要的東西沒有提到服務比呢你沒有講到服務比啊"},{"start":4183.772,"end":4212.718,"text":"服務比那是不是請那個政府代理市長報告一下報告委員我們現在欣慰中心的確每年的這個點數都在增加那我們的人力呢也是要逐步的這個補助到位那我們現在的這個人員禁用情況呢如果是以這個這個精神病患的關懷訪視員來講的話其實隨著我們的關懷訪視員到位我們去年大概每一個人的案量比大概是1比60左右"},{"start":4213.218,"end":4233.84,"text":"那今年就已經下降到1比50那未來我們人力逐漸到位之後這個關懷訪視的這個負荷比也一定會再持續的下降但是因為我們人員經驗經用都還在路上你們是不是2025你自己有幫自己訂了一個目標服務比在每一類的人員不太一樣關懷訪視員的話我們希望明年年底可以達到1比40"},{"start":4234.881,"end":4238.483,"text":"因為第一線的社工也會跟我反映他們會面臨到什麼的問題他會有結案的KPI壓力"},{"start":4253.81,"end":4274.364,"text":"假使他輔導的個案後來又復發那就會影響到他的KPI他有時候還要身兼各管事他必須要去協助比如說申請失業長照等等的社會福利所以如果說你只是在你的報告中呈現不管是人力或者是地點有增加但你沒有重視到他的服務比他"},{"start":4276.886,"end":4278.328,"text":"本席在這邊預測是有一點點困難,您覺得呢?"},{"start":4300.885,"end":4318.211,"text":"有關於人力禁用部分我們也會持續的來督導地方政府要加強但是委員剛剛提到是不是這樣的一個負荷比對我們的新衛社工來講是不是會不會負擔太重那這個我們社安網因為我們即將在2.0我們在研擬中我們會在人力的負荷部分我們也會一併的來做檢討"},{"start":4319.591,"end":4336.302,"text":"那剛陳昭志委員也有關心到的這個精神衛生法到12月部長12月14號就要開始實施精神衛生法可是現在只完成了12個執法的預告還有9個還沒完成這個預告時間你也知道已經"},{"start":4338.125,"end":4358.997,"text":"我們預告大概12個會在同時在12月14號發布那其他還沒有發布的是因為必須要跟法務部司法院來談當時的時候也是有這樣的一個所以其他9個您想要什麼時候開始預告"},{"start":4362.242,"end":4383.293,"text":"報告委員就是說我們今年12月14號要上路的是總共是15個21個裡面有15個今年的12月14號會上路那另外6個主要是跟司法院有關係必須要另訂這個施行的日期那今年要施行的15個執法規裡面我們12個已經完成預告最近就會陸續發布所以你還剩3個對"},{"start":4385.274,"end":4394.395,"text":"另外三個的話我們也希望說能夠在這個月裡面就是完成就是要進行預告然後收集各界的意見之後我們也會盡快的來做一個發布的作業"},{"start":4396.385,"end":4422.342,"text":"下一個我想問一下今天我們有檢討說這位個案他是沒有達到列管的標準但是發生了這件事情以後他達到我們收案的標準我也想知道新建司或是部長的觀點我們需不需要再來調整這個收案的觀點因為他有可能會在回歸家庭之後如果比如說這個個案他可能家庭的量能不足"},{"start":4422.842,"end":4434.036,"text":"沒有人繼續去維持他的吃藥啊狀況是否穩定那就會導致像這樣子遺憾的事情發生所以你們是不是要在收案的條件做一些調整"},{"start":4436.167,"end":4459.234,"text":"目前是有在檢討但是一個社區像這樣的病人他整個從醫院到社區的整體的照顧我們要用多元化來不管是充實精神的一個醫療或者照護還有布置更好的心理衛生中心給他還有一些多元的支持方案給他家庭這些都可以讓我們在品質上會增加那這個標準我們會檢討"},{"start":4461.055,"end":4485.552,"text":"我們什麼時候可以看到您的這個新的標準跟委員報告因為我們已經委託這個心理衛生社工學會進行我們收結案標準的一個檢討那這個委託案呢今年年底會結束那結束之後呢我們會針對他們提出來的草案我們會再找各縣市政府來做一個討論之後我們希望能夠很快的就能夠來這個頒布新的一個收結案標準"},{"start":4487.26,"end":4514.579,"text":"最後這是承接上次有請教過兩位的問題也就是說像我們現在這位加害者他已經被收押了可是如果他未來在審判的過程被判刑等等的他很高的機率都會需要司法精神鑑定也有很高的機率是不能住在一般的精神病床而是放在預證系統言下之意就是說他很高的機率會住進司法精神病房上次您提到說原本我們的"},{"start":4515.359,"end":4542.674,"text":"需求是800多床然後現在做了100多床嗎這100多床都已經開始了嗎跟委員報告我們依據這個相關的法規我們有預估這個司法精神病床的一個需求那我們推估大概是未來的10年應該是大概480床應該是夠用那我們目前呢上次跟委員報告就是說我們到目前為止已經開放了102床"},{"start":4544.395,"end":4563.648,"text":"那其他的這個病房的病床會陸續的開放那我們希望說在這個我們有4個司法精神病房我們希望說到明年可以開放到100明年底之前可以完成183床那另外就是說這個保安處分處所目前也是在興建當中"},{"start":4564.008,"end":4587.404,"text":"那預計也是明年年底會完工所以你這180幾床你有什麼規劃要在幾年內達到快500床明年年底之前這180幾床就全數開放但是實際上你需求是快要500床嗎對實際的需求對那剛剛有跟委員報告除了我們在醫院裡面的司法精神病房之外我們另外也有這個另外一家處所正在興建當中也是明年年底會完工這邊有幾床"},{"start":4587.984,"end":4589.105,"text":"司法精神病床主要是被裁定"},{"start":4603.336,"end":4604.156,"text":"主席,謝謝。好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝部長。那接一夕我們請林業勤委員質詢"},{"start":4633.635,"end":4634.035,"text":"委員早部長早"},{"start":4647.115,"end":4671.821,"text":"臺灣大概在我們的2025年剛才也提到2024年12月14號我們的精神衛生法新法新制就要上路了那要全面上路我想問準備好了嗎為什麼因為過去我們的傳統大概在我們的以藥物住院跟機構安置為主可是新法未來事實上是要符合我們的CRPD以維護我們的"},{"start":4673.604,"end":4677.614,"text":"緊張者人格權那要讓他們可不可以在社區"},{"start":4679.079,"end":4706.897,"text":"融合作為這樣子的一個導向那當然目前現在數據我們看到2021年2024年那大概目前身心障礙者大概超過120萬人以上那其中我們的精神障礙大概占12%左右所以想問就是說我們的精神衛生法第三條定義的嚴重病人目前部長有沒有掌握占全體病人的幾成"},{"start":4708.334,"end":4730.909,"text":"目前大概6、7千人是屬於嚴重病人?屬於嚴重病人大概有6、7千人6、7千人那這群人的醫療需求相對多那佔健保的那個失絕病症支出的幾成?委員的意思是"},{"start":4731.809,"end":4745.704,"text":"就是因為這個嚴重病人事實上他的相對醫療支出會比較多一點那現在健保的那個思覺病症支出占他幾成這個健保室有沒有統計是不是如果現在回答不出來的話那就等"},{"start":4753.696,"end":4780.57,"text":"會後給我資料因為前面我問嚴重的後面大家也要期待就是過去呢事實上大家輕症都在社區儲育裡面大概都比較沒有這麼的多所以未來是不是在健保支出應該對於社區儲育應該要對於輕症的因為如果你的輕症不做你的服務支出少的話那當然未來他在社區裡面沒有得到很好照顧的話未來也是一個"},{"start":4781.21,"end":4783.452,"text":"衛福部事上事實上是主管機關地方包含地方還有各目的事業主管都有些各"},{"start":4799.488,"end":4801.308,"text":"目前你的部件資源部件的如何?"},{"start":4827.19,"end":4832.414,"text":"謝謝 謝委員的關心我們在健保的部分其實有增加的大概有40幾%的經費"},{"start":4836.141,"end":4837.821,"text":"時間有限,所以請衛福部一個月內彙整我剛剛講的第一個"},{"start":4864.861,"end":4890.485,"text":"也就是這幾項的狀況部件還有個其他目的事業主管機關配合的狀況請你一個月能夠彙整出來然後提供我這邊是的是是那想問一下就是我們在CRPD的去機構化的倡議下全世界大概先進國家只剩下"},{"start":4891.509,"end":4908.537,"text":"臺灣、日本跟韓國還在衝床位其他的都已經在減床那民間團體也是期待如果事實上是去符合他人格權要以社區為主的話應該也是要減床可是我們現在是增床所以想問部長臺灣有減床的計畫嗎我們市長先生也知道"},{"start":4916.25,"end":4944.671,"text":"跟委員報告的確我們現在全全球的一個對精神病人照顧的趨勢是希望能夠盡量留在社區裡面來接受我們的服務所以臺灣在這幾年呢我們也佈建了非常多的這個社區支持的資源那至於說在床數的部分那的確就像委員所講的我們不管是急性床慢性床其實我們的占床率這幾年看起來是有一些下降的一個趨勢但是這個下降我們我們不會去主動減床但是我們依然是"},{"start":4945.271,"end":4947.693,"text":"委員提到的應該是屬於我們住宿型的精神部件機構部分"},{"start":4964.805,"end":4965.666,"text":"委員指的是哪一類的就是我們的金帳的這樣的"},{"start":4989.375,"end":5015.802,"text":"那有關於社區精神復健機構如果是在日間型的部分我們希望說每萬人至少能夠有兩床那有關於這個住宿型的部分的話大概每萬人口能夠有一床那目前的話其實在住宿型機構的部分呢其實是已經有達到目標了那照護能力呢就包含我們的護理師醫師職能治療師臨床心理師社工師床位增加都一定會醫事人員增加嗎"},{"start":5016.622,"end":5042.95,"text":"所以能夠足夠指引現在你有目前現在的床位的照顧人力嗎?是,各位報告我們的機構要成立必須要依照我們的設置標準所以說他要成立這一家不管是精神住宿型也好或是日間型的精神復健機構也好必須要符合我們的設置標準那設置標準裡面就會定有一定的人力你才能夠來申請設立所以在這個符合設置標準的情況之下他才有可能來設立"},{"start":5043.993,"end":5046.87,"text":"所以醫事人員的部分是要符合標準才能設的?"},{"start":5048.923,"end":5073.474,"text":"這次想桃園發生這種事情像遇到緊急事件民眾到底要跟誰通報因為民眾比較關心的問題那因為在2020年大概7月衛福部就有設立24小時專線供相關人員做內部通報可是這機制大概保留在新法的第49條可是一般民眾到底知不知道你內部有可是到底民眾知不知道為什麼會這樣問"},{"start":5074.514,"end":5087.054,"text":"因為我們社區的人可能知道我在做的是這個工作反而是來問我們表示我們政府到底有沒有很讓民眾知道說我到底要尋求要通報說我到底打110打119嗎"},{"start":5090.214,"end":5106.109,"text":"報告委員緊急事件的時候基本上是要打110跟119通報警消當然我們後續如果有需要在精神醫療方面緊急處理的話還有call center是你有沒有加強宣導讓民眾知道延續這一個問題第二個問題也是政府應該加強宣導因為"},{"start":5113.435,"end":5113.575,"text":"有在做嗎?"},{"start":5129.319,"end":5154.506,"text":"這個我們也討論過就是基本上我們還是盡量鼓勵通報但是如果那個剛剛委員關心的可能稍微有狀況就是不是會太擾民或者是是民眾知道嗎現在我問部長的是民眾到底知不知道我想我們怎麼樣先導的事情那個心理的心態是不是"},{"start":5155.342,"end":5168.455,"text":"跟委員報告就是您剛提到的這個24小時的這個專線的部分的話我們最主要是提供給警消在做第一線精神病人的危機事件處理的時候我們可以提供專業的一個意見那這支專線的話的確我們一般的網絡的人員譬如說社工村里領長他們也會打來做一個諮詢那我們就會有專業人員在電話這一端提供就是說"},{"start":5178.485,"end":5198.969,"text":"我們會做初步的評估然後給他一些處置的建議那關於這個專線的宣導部分我們也會持續的來跟這個地方政府來合作加強這支專線的一個宣導希望你們要加強宣導我現在問的都是我在社區遇到的一些狀況那再來是為了避免濫用我們的強制住院來剝奪"},{"start":5202.49,"end":5203.931,"text":"未來還是一樣能夠預見未來大概沒有專家學者能夠對於出院的作為做保證"},{"start":5217.748,"end":5247.191,"text":"所以使得住院期間就會不斷延長甚至形同做黑牢所以因此盡量者的法律輔助非常重要這是我們權力保護的必要的一些措施那新法對於62條跟70條都有一些委任非訴訟帶領的規定所以想問部長未來本法專家參審新制的那個審理制度施行後每年預估的案件數你有預估嗎因為這跟預算有關係你預估多少"},{"start":5248.908,"end":5273.036,"text":"報告委員,因為這個是新制,就是說未來精神病人強制住院改由法院來審理,這是新制,那我們目前比較沒有辦法去預估這個案件的多少。所以我們基本上我們就是依照我們今年度的這個案件量來做一個估算。對,那你今年可不可以跟我們講一下你推估大概會多少?"},{"start":5275.007,"end":5300.147,"text":"那個我們今年的案件量我們預估這個強制住院部分大概是600件左右那在有沒有就是你未來預計要委託誰來辦理目前進度為了保障病人的權益我們自114年起已經委託法復法律輔助基金只有法復嗎有沒有其他單位來辦理這個這個"},{"start":5302.106,"end":5317.804,"text":"緊急安置嚴重病人法律福祉單位目前就是法服好那這關係到經常者跟家屬的權益有現在有再開始對民眾宣導嗎所以再問你準備好沒像這樣東西已經有再開始讓民眾知道嗎"},{"start":5320.115,"end":5320.195,"text":"預計什麼時候?"},{"start":5345.102,"end":5357.371,"text":"這個因為我們可能需要一點時間因為新制包含我們一些相關的流程我們都會把它寫在懶人包裡面讓我們的民眾跟住院病人能夠更加容易的理解希望說到時候人願意在留志在"},{"start":5359.648,"end":5379.459,"text":"出院出獄都要提前準備了所以出院計畫的目的事實上是為了出院前提前連結社會資源來建立服務關係對於受訓人來說建立關係非常重要尤其涉及到我們的服刑期間有時候戶籍事實上是要隨著他轉到當地的戶政單位那所以"},{"start":5381.533,"end":5404.245,"text":"那戶籍法第47條50條是這樣規定的那可是如果說今天在新北市的人在花蓮服刑他期滿之後回到新北市有時候是得不到這樣子的一個所謂的服務不能力嘛像這個人你就找不到了所以在社區處遇應該要提前而且事實上能夠是不是跟"},{"start":5405.299,"end":5405.439,"text":"衛生福利部長"},{"start":5422.503,"end":5438.888,"text":"因為主席都站起來了最後還是要呼籲社會大眾我們經常者比任何人更期待我們的平等公平然後融合到社會當中好生活所以我們希望政府部門可以來協力"},{"start":5439.828,"end":5464.67,"text":"來理解他的困難去包容他了。謝謝委員,我想政府在這方面非常用心。那精神病患照護優化應該也是我當時擔任召委的時候通過的,所以我應該很重視,看怎麼樣把它落實。主席有點不太公平,因為我剛剛前面那個大概都還沒站起來。以上。好,謝謝委員,謝謝召委。謝謝林委員,謝謝部長。那繼續我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。"},{"start":5484.012,"end":5503.194,"text":"謝謝主席 請我們的邱部長部長好部長好 部長早安喔早我想要先問一下喔針對這個人工生殖法的修正草案是否有明確的立法時間表那預計何時能夠完成立法因為"},{"start":5505.649,"end":5522.76,"text":"預告的時候有600多則的意見那當然基本上都在代理應募這個部比較多啦所以經過開了實際場的一個會議大概我們希望在11月底能夠送行政院預計希望在11月底送行政院好OK"},{"start":5523.325,"end":5537.612,"text":"那第二個就是在無償代孕中要如何確保這個代理孕母的自主權然後以及對於這個營養費上限的設定是否有足夠會不會出現有商業化的漏洞這個部分可不可以請部長也指教一下"},{"start":5538.171,"end":5559.067,"text":"我想這個就是一直大家所關注的所以我想問一下說目前你們評估的狀況跟要怎麼做我們現在訂出來的標準其實雖然目前還在做討論演繹當中但是我們初步來看他訂出來的都是非常保護母體母親就是懷孕"},{"start":5559.807,"end":5569.415,"text":"所以你目前覺得說那怎麼確保他的這個自主權跟他營養費上限是否足夠那會不會出現商業化漏洞這三個問題"},{"start":5571.412,"end":5598.939,"text":"是這部分有沒有國政署有沒有要跟我們幫忙跟委員報告那目前這個修法草案的設計代孕是以無償的方式去進行的就是禁止商業代孕那習慣有一些相關費用的部分那這個部分我們在如果未來修法通過之後我們還跟相關的專家去做相關的嚴定跟所以目前是還沒有考慮到這些事情等於是細節上還沒有考還沒有還沒有一個比較明確的"},{"start":5600.319,"end":5604.883,"text":"那你覺得這部分會不會出現商業漏洞?商業化的漏洞?我想剛剛部長也談到我們還是以這個代理母的保護當作優先我們會盡量去做這個比較周全的考量"},{"start":5625.728,"end":5628.531,"text":"好再來那如果代孕過程中出現這個醫療風險或法規爭議的話我們衛福部會如何處理跟調解"},{"start":5635.034,"end":5659.227,"text":"我講現在草案設計師要求這個待運的部分有進行相關的評估那也有待運服務機構的機制設計在裡面那就是包括剛提到法律的部分那另外也要投保這個人身保險跟這個健康保險那假設有這個相關的部分在保險上面也能夠獲得給付那這整個懷孕過程那如果有這個"},{"start":5661.529,"end":5683.144,"text":"這個法規規定需要進行這個人工流產的部分那也可以照這個相關法令來做辦理目前草案的設計是這個樣子所以這目前裡面草案都有具體的設計好那再來我想問一下接下來就是回到今天的主題根據這個衛福部自己統計的資料這3年的自殺人數節節攀升"},{"start":5685.726,"end":5698.457,"text":"那其實剛好也是社安網第二期施行的年份等於是社安網二期編列預算後反倒成果越來越差我想要請教一下部長你覺得這次預算不夠還是執行部長導致效果不好"},{"start":5701.635,"end":5726.166,"text":"因為從自殺防治中心開始的時候我就是其中裡面的一個一員所以我我們就知道大家的努力都可以讓自殺在譬如說在但我說從結果結果論來講你看後面三年後面三年你看一下當然這個我們要再分析原因是不是整個社會變遷是預算還是還是因為執行不彰還是可能細節還沒有思考周全"},{"start":5727.806,"end":5752.833,"text":"說執行部長我個人覺得從自殺防治那些那麼用心多年來的這些精神科醫師團隊的其實比較不公平一點可能兩者有互相影響因為中央預算中央政府預算明年稅出是3兆1325億那現在卓院長的預算總諮詢的報告中說社安網二期的預算只有75億"},{"start":5754.173,"end":5756.599,"text":"基本上就是說不到0.24%那我想你認為這樣子的預算夠嗎?"},{"start":5761.089,"end":5761.649,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?"},{"start":5789.38,"end":5809.872,"text":"報告委員我想社會安全網是社會所重視的不管是朝野：好所以我想要進一步講的就是這個部長前年修正的精神衛生法即將在今年的12月14日實行那請問部長經衛法的第三條定義很清楚但是幾乎都是圍繞在精神疾病"},{"start":5810.672,"end":5838.335,"text":"都是圍繞在精神疾病但是心理健康促進卻是沒有被定義的部長治療基本上已經是最末端的處理但是中階段的預防剛剛講到中階段預防和最初階段的心理健康促進卻沒有被明確的定義清楚那請教部長現在修法當然是可能已經是來不及也不可能但是亡羊補牢還是有機會是不是可以用這個修正施行細則的方式把心理健康促進放進去"},{"start":5839.376,"end":5863.95,"text":"謝謝委員的指教對沒錯我們就是要在精神衛生法施行記者裡面納入心理健康促進是很好啊因為2022年WHO最新的世界心理報告第6.1章節標題就是心理健康促進跟普遍性的預防所以也謝謝這個部長正面回應其實心理健康很重要平常政府就有責任做好心理健康促進"},{"start":5864.75,"end":5889.497,"text":"不是等到發病或是有狀況之後才來做治療跟危機處理所以這個部分我要提醒這個部長在事情細節的部分要盡速的把它列出來謝謝委員的指教這也是符合剛剛委員所講的WHO的一個趨勢對那另外還有一群人的確是被社安網給忽略的依照這個特殊教育法在在學期間這些自閉症或是有情緒障礙"},{"start":5890.757,"end":5905.157,"text":"的部分在學校的期間都有學校的老師可以做輔導那部長我想請問但是這些人如果一旦畢業如果他們沒有去做所謂的身心障礙的鑑定那他在身份上是不是就不會有這個身心障礙族群的身份對嗎"},{"start":5908.956,"end":5932.615,"text":"那個我想齁在...好部長就是對啦好不好我跟你講就是這樣子啦是是是好所以這群人如果沒有去做這個鑑定的話那他其實福利無法獲取之外更重要是社政單位就會漏接所以我在這裡要告訴部長的是如果他們回到社區沒有足夠的支持跟支持管道的時候他就比較容易發生憾事了"},{"start":5933.864,"end":5952.522,"text":"所以部長這部分我想要問你們,你們有什麼方法去加強嗎?加強宣導或者是在校的輔導對象要追蹤這個部分?這部分是不是可以去進一步的去做宣導跟追蹤?你們現在有考慮到這件事情嗎?"},{"start":5954.349,"end":5968.878,"text":"看起來是目前沒有對不對所以這部分本席提出來是不是可以請你們回去了解研究評估一下告訴本席這個部分要怎麼處理好是的可以嗎好沒問題好再來我要再討論到一個這個貪扣的問題"},{"start":5973.823,"end":5986.11,"text":"部長你當立委的時候其實針對健保攤扣對當時的反正當時的部長提出質詢所以我想你應該非常清楚攤扣那部長請問你認同和支持攤扣的做法嗎"},{"start":5988.768,"end":6009.778,"text":"因為在總額制度之下真的就是在一定的總額然後成長力如果有限可是醫療的需求對但部長您當初也是有質詢這個我知道醫療需求一直暴漲所以會絕對會呈現點子下降的一種趨勢那如果讓點子不要那麼明顯的下降可能會用"},{"start":6010.638,"end":6029.341,"text":"不管是斷頭或斷尾部長所以你知道這個很有趣喔我等一下還講到我覺得這次是醫院真的醫院的痛啦對嘛我就想要問一下這個邏輯是有問題的對不對臺北區的醫院是採取探戶嘛事後探戶那所以當"},{"start":6031.944,"end":6038.01,"text":"所以我想問部長你是認同支持嗎?所以其實你本身是不認同的對不對?不認同和不支持的?但是你本人是不是不認同和不支持的?"},{"start":6047.639,"end":6071.343,"text":"我當然是希望健保能夠永續因為跟委員報告因為我們還是要有時候要站在人民我們也是站在人民的角度所以我要跟你們報告國家的財務狀況那國家的整體發展然後我們醫界自己怎麼樣來創造價值其實簡單來講這個貪扣的部分就是好像是假設健保是買方那醫院算是賣方那"},{"start":6072.133,"end":6088.922,"text":"其實也算是付錢的一方啦健保的部分嘛所以如果一般商品賣方不符合這些商品的這個品質啊或是他的產出有問題那你當然可以要求他驗收不合格退貨可是部長你用貪扣的方式啊你是等於是代表你要求所有的賣家一起減價這個收受"},{"start":6091.323,"end":6113.677,"text":"所以您也知道這個就是這個概念嘛對不對所以這樣子的攤扣制度就會讓這些公司立議院他的不只是無所適從可能會導致他所有經營上面的困難包含著我們後面會提到非常多但我想就不一一贅述但是基本上根據立法院這個決議當初的主決議就是要達到0.95對不對"},{"start":6115.618,"end":6144.938,"text":"那如果說依照憲法規定我們通過的事情行政院只能遵守或是經總統何可提出復議那因此我們在提的這個主決議0.95等於1點這個就是勢必勢在必行不可以有折扣但是實務上你們現在除了公務預算的挹注但是實務上你們卻提高了這個攤扣的金額處理方式我們也接到很多陳情有某醫院他去年同期努力服務成長的金額幾乎全額被扣除"},{"start":6145.898,"end":6165.239,"text":"那還要再倒扣約50%那點值上你說好像我用這種方式去提高了點值但實際上其實是倒貼的部分所以我想要跟你講你看這個是你們全民健保這個各種額部門的結算結果他直接在上面寫攤扣後我想請問部長你有攤扣前的數據嗎?你們有公佈攤扣前的數據嗎?"},{"start":6167.862,"end":6184.451,"text":"我想這才可以讓人家了解這個點值真正發生了什麼問題所以你現在就只有這個攤扣後的數據攤扣前攤扣後應該都有資料啦沒有攤扣後有啊我問你攤扣前有沒有因為你這都是攤扣完的資料啊所以沒有辦法真實的反映健保點值到底多少倍"},{"start":6186.412,"end":6188.113,"text":"貪扣請問有法律授權嗎?依法有據嗎?"},{"start":6209.398,"end":6235.313,"text":"這個就是各區自主管理的一個機制所以其實是沒有法源嘛對不對像臺北市的臺北區的基層點子比較低所以後來發現說部長太高我知道所以基本上就是就是沒有法源嘛對不對所以比如說健保啊醫療院所是不是有依據健保法全民健康這個保險醫事服務機構特約及管理辦法訂定合約成為特約醫事服務機構那"},{"start":6237.974,"end":6253.6,"text":"請問簽約的合約範本上任何有跟攤扣有關的規定嗎?我還是要講這個,就是你就是沒有法案了嗎?不管是攤扣或者是先各醫院總額,像南區就是醫院總額嘛。沒有,部長你要回答我問題啊。在這個簽約的合約範本裡面有沒有?是不是沒有?"},{"start":6257.856,"end":6263.501,"text":"全民健康保險醫療費用申報與核負及醫療服務審查辦法裡面其實是有一個叫做健保核三的法源依據但是完全沒有攤扣相關的規定"},{"start":6276.892,"end":6285.915,"text":"所以這會變成是政府可以用一紙命令就扣錢就扣這個就合扣費用嗎其實這我還是要回過頭來講這樣子的問題就是導致現在這個醫院或是醫療院所經營上面的問題那你可能導致他們在採購或甚至現在要發年終然後因為你攤扣後的數字完全跟他經營上面對不起來所以變成他們很困難甚至間接也導致這個醫護他在家"},{"start":6303.821,"end":6307.843,"text":"這個問題其實也蠻久的然後你們嘴巴上都一直說很重視很重視可是你完全沒有解方啊"},{"start":6333.118,"end":6362.638,"text":"還有總...我們當時會訂總額的制度除非我們好好來檢討總額這件事情我會請部長啊因為時間啊請你深入瞭解攤扣的法律授權還有瞭解攤扣對於公司我想其實這個部分你很清楚啊公司醫院營業經營的影響喔還有攤扣是否對於醫護人員工作獎金發放設備購置甚至這個醫療投資人員禁用等等的進行全方面的瞭解"},{"start":6364.16,"end":6373.253,"text":"我想你們在這部分應該是很清楚所以我其實就是要跟你說你們是這個攤扣是沒有法源依據的請部長深入了解一下攤扣法律授權好不好"},{"start":6374.877,"end":6391.943,"text":"好 這個沒問題 但是就是說其實在管理方面是各區自主性的管理的精神那你可不可以針對我說的這個問題給我一個簡單的說明好不好 給我一份報告說你們的授權到底在哪裡還是你們覺得這個到底有沒有法律的問題我們會回答 回答委員 謝謝 謝謝委員關心謝謝 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長應該是違法"},{"start":6400.748,"end":6415.072,"text":"那接下來我們請邱政軍委員執行。那我們在竹田局委員執行完畢之後,休息10分鐘。好,主席好。我們一樣請邱部長。邱部長請。委員好。部長好。"},{"start":6421.768,"end":6433.992,"text":"我想請問一下,我們精神衛生法最新修正的部分將在12月14日來開始實行那總共有21項的法規命令跟6項的行政規則,你們預定是不是今年就要修完?"},{"start":6439.933,"end":6467.038,"text":"我們有其中15部的一個執法規我們總共有21部15部將在一樣在11、13年的12月14日上路所以現在進度全部好了嗎?我們將以在預計以11月到12月以行政程序辦理發布事宜都已經程序沒有問題了那我看其中第5章預計要到明年下半年才會適用"},{"start":6468.939,"end":6480.816,"text":"因為齁另外有6部齁對阿你剛剛講全部好了嘛那我現在沒有沒有21部裡面只有15部只有15部另外6部要由行政院跟司法院另訂施行日期那誰是主這個主責的機關這個部分說6部呃在6部的話"},{"start":6487.195,"end":6502.109,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們有關於這個跟司法院相關的是有六部那其中呢主責司法院主責的有兩部那剩下四部的話是本部跟司法院要一起來訂的所以基本上"},{"start":6503.41,"end":6516.718,"text":"所以因為牽扯到司法院我想部長部裡面這邊應該要跟司法院這邊來做好追蹤協調嘛不然你這個東西到時候實施了你有些又沒有跟上怎麼辦"},{"start":6518.877,"end":6519.477,"text":"司法院領選法官有什麼要求嗎?"},{"start":6537.83,"end":6562.989,"text":"還是什麼樣的法官都可以?有關於這個法官的部分是由司法院這邊來訂定,包含說在整個參審制裡面的這個參審的醫師跟參審的病權代表的相關的領選資格是由司法院來訂定的。所以司法院來選擇就對了?對。好,那我問你,這個114年涉及司法院權責事項跟規定的部分要召開分區說明會,我們預計要開幾場?"},{"start":6569.304,"end":6586.354,"text":"跟委員報告因為司法院因應我們這個新法要上路其實已經規劃了12次的模擬法庭的這個我上個月是開辦在臺北嘛臺北地院其實他是有6個指定法院所以每一個法院會輪兩次總共要開12場現在開了幾場"},{"start":6590.939,"end":6593.722,"text":"我再請教我們心理衛生中心當初113年預估要有53處那10月底已經有52處了算一個多月會達標嗎?"},{"start":6608.729,"end":6636.402,"text":"可以啦那精神病有多元社區生活方案發展計畫112年一共合定25家113年合定38家那114年到現在為止我們有提出幾家申請跟委員報告因為我們現在正在公開徵求當中所以還不確定有幾家會投進來但是因為我們的經費有增加我們預估補助的加數也會增加"},{"start":6638.237,"end":6652.78,"text":"我們針對未納入列管的經脹者肇事一再發生社會質疑資源沒有到位您認為針對精神障礙者的發現與照顧優化的資源有沒有到位?"},{"start":6655.066,"end":6675.739,"text":"副長你認為勒?我們一直在檢討沒有到你說完全到位當然有包括硬體軟體的一個還有人才的訓練我看了一下就是說全這個全民心理健康這個韌性計畫是說訪視人力要由2021年的183位逐年補時至2025的1001位使負荷比"},{"start":6683.78,"end":6684.88,"text":"不是你什麼時候可以補助?"},{"start":6714.693,"end":6740.266,"text":"什麼時候可以補足那個一千零一位一千零一位的話是明年明年我們預計就是要全部都能達到對我們期待可以達到那我看到四年前這個我們本院提倡成立司法精神病院那後來只用司法精神病房替代原本說好像在全台設置480床那目前只有高雄凱旋醫院只有30床"},{"start":6741.647,"end":6758.022,"text":"那所以我們5月從基隆某醫院介乎逃跑的那位思覺失調患者必須從基隆遠送高雄待之行那我請問衛福部為什麼司法精神病房遲遲沒有進度?到底遇到什麼困難?"},{"start":6759.719,"end":6775.34,"text":"跟委員報告其實司法精神醫療資源的部件我們都一直持續在進行那我們現在的規劃是在北中南東都要設置一家那司法精神病房部分會有180床那另外還會有這個司法精神醫療保安處分處所"},{"start":6780.965,"end":6799.262,"text":"我相信治療的追蹤目的都是希望我們患者能在穩定的情況下回歸社會但是我們也必須要承認是社會上的支持的系統還是需要努力的尤其是現在殺人犯都拿精神病來當擋箭牌我想這個部分"},{"start":6801.644,"end":6802.184,"text":"國小自殺通報6年來飆升10倍"},{"start":6827.51,"end":6849.48,"text":"111年14歲以下有19個孩子用自殺結束自己的生命那其中73.7%的個案自殺通報日就是死亡日這表示社會安全網沒有接觸這些孩子那14歲以下自殺的死亡人數110年大概有14人111年有19112年有24那我看到資料只有112年那113年現在有多少"},{"start":6857.954,"end":6871.833,"text":"因為我們的這個自殺通報跟死亡的數據都是我們都有在做一些關切但是死亡的數據的話要到明年大概5月底6月才會有最終的數字出來"},{"start":6873.31,"end":6888.708,"text":"市長,我這樣講,我不要把這個責任丟給教育部,我想這個強化精神疾病或是自殺防治的服務,衛福部都是主責機關,我希望由衛福部來主導這個事情,把這個"},{"start":6891.327,"end":6907.153,"text":"這個學生的自殺率來降低那學生其實學生受網路的影響是非常大的那如果未來出現這樣子的這個現象來引誘鼓勵自殺或自殘的網站或網頁衛福部可以要求我們速發部來封網嗎"},{"start":6913.566,"end":6937.543,"text":"有關於這個在媒體上面去做一些監測的這個事情的話其實我們也有在委託這個臺北市的電腦商業同業工會來幫我們去做一些這個偵測那另外就是說如果民眾發現這個跟速發部沒有關係是嗎他們不負責查報就對了或者是你們查報了請他處理也沒辦法"},{"start":6939.142,"end":6967.421,"text":"我們如果接到民眾的這個通報或是機關的通報你剛剛講你委託臺北的那個什麼電腦公司啊臺北的什麼臺北電腦商業同業公會他有權利去封網嗎沒有他只是說他只是通報而已啊所以我想說我們要有實際的作為啊不對嗎其實這個我們衛福部很注重這個對啦注重我是說那到底是最後誰能夠解決這個事情能夠把這個東西拉下來"},{"start":6969.104,"end":6969.344,"text":"是跟委員說明"},{"start":6992.513,"end":7009.831,"text":"繼而紹最佳利益他是違法行為自殺是一個犯罪行為是違法行為可以要求也就是IWIN網路防護機構他政府授權給他可以通知網路業者要移除下架不移除下架有裁罰"},{"start":7010.632,"end":7028.672,"text":"好 那就好 那這個就是我要問的嘛我希望這個部長你也要掌握這樣的一個資訊才在下達指令的時候才不會出現錯誤好不好那最後一個就是說我們上次有講到法務部已經同意升級那個依托米子為二級毒品"},{"start":7029.733,"end":7040.162,"text":"那我看到了就是說我們警政署也行文給食藥署希望食藥署盡快研擬依托米子類毒價的這個尿液檢驗這個預值以利毒價的檢驗請問什麼時候可以訂出來"},{"start":7047.133,"end":7071.432,"text":"好 謝謝 我們施耀使來回答一下是 跟委員報告 這個我們正在做科學資料收集希望在年底以前可以開會可以有這個共識的結論 以上報告好 儘快啦 因為這個東西不能拖齁因為改為二級毒品之後我又發現一個問題啊就是對醫護人員有沒有影響就是說因為他是平常是在醫院做這個麻醉藥品的使用"},{"start":7072.313,"end":7091.921,"text":"那會不會影響這個我們這個辦案人員的辦案或者讓我們的醫護人員不小心就成了持有毒品的這個嫌犯好謝謝委員關心這個這是我們一直很注意的事情在很多的藥其實在醫療上是非常重要的對啊很多政策下來它是一體面我想這個部分我希望部長不理面這個部分應該是不會去"},{"start":7094.604,"end":7097.266,"text":"好,謝謝邱正清委員我們請下一位我們蘇清泉委員謝謝,謝謝主席,我們請邱部長好,我們請邱部長"},{"start":7125.256,"end":7132.085,"text":"社會福利部長辛苦了是精神衛生法這是你做照護的算通過嗎"},{"start":7135.86,"end":7163.151,"text":"有通過的法案太多了到底那個時候是不是有擔任召委員有擔任7次的召委員所以很多的法案都是我跟大家報告現在有精神相關的官能證的什麼的有就醫有紀錄的差不多100多萬人差不多150、160萬人那裡面有精神疾病娘殘障手冊的是13萬是不是這樣"},{"start":7165.563,"end":7169.124,"text":"總床數集滿性有幾床?現在我們現在集滿性的病床總共有2萬608床"},{"start":7187.512,"end":7214.62,"text":"那你現在這個新的法是要把這些我們以前叫精神分裂症現在就是失絕失調嘛把這些人盡量推回家裡嘛回到社區嘛這是人權的關係那你的人你的輔導啊社工啊這些人看起來還有缺口嘛現在的缺口差不多有兩萬人還是更多"},{"start":7215.949,"end":7232.856,"text":"應該沒有。我們叫到114人將增加到2489人。所以以現在的努力還,現在還有差1000人。"},{"start":7233.598,"end":7254.267,"text":"你如果照日本阿加拿大阿他們那種一個人負擔的譬如說訪視員阿什麼你的名稱什麼不管anyway就是英國差不多1比35阿香港差不多1比50日本是比較誇張日本是1比10啦那我們台灣是1比300還是400"},{"start":7257.863,"end":7287.052,"text":"那個是4年前4年前現在嗎對跟委員報告跟委員報告您剛提到的1比300那個是在109年的時候那當時我們的關懷訪視員人數的確是比較少當時才100多位那我們現在的關懷訪視員已經來到了500多位將近600位了所以這個案量比到去年為止是1比60所以已經有大幅度的改善那今年到年底的話會應該會降到1比50左右"},{"start":7288.053,"end":7298.563,"text":"那你這一筆五十是把醫生、心理師、社工師都攬攬做一個來平行的嗎?只有關懷訪視員只有關懷,那所以你的關懷訪視員是訪視的對象是就是這13萬個人"},{"start":7303.468,"end":7327,"text":"各位委員報告您剛剛提到的是零有身心障礙手冊的慢性精神病人那在我們這個全國的精神病人的追蹤關懷系統裡面我們現在追蹤的是9萬5千人那剛剛提到的關懷訪視員這500多位呢其實他是訪視我們在這個9萬多人裡面的第一級跟第二級的個案大概2萬6千人左右所以剛剛的1比60是這樣算出來的"},{"start":7330.683,"end":7359.722,"text":"因為像屏東在兩年多前有一個就是思覺失調的然後在高速箱打一個女電眼黑眼鏡那件事震驚全台灣那在長庚演課幫他開刀的時候是我媳婦給打開了所以我印象很深那個女孩子也因為失禮也救了大部分都救回來了所以是很不簡單大家都很用心"},{"start":7361.003,"end":7374.735,"text":"那像這一種的,現在是打長效針嘛,打長效針,啊我們打長效針,你現在是寬列預算,那一支很有效的耶,那一支很有效的,那煮下去之後都疊著疊著齁,啊那支檢報有出嗎?有,那一支不是多少支?"},{"start":7381.539,"end":7402.903,"text":"稍微報告一下,其實我們請那個以前有很多公務預算是好像公務預算可以來支付的,我們最近都把它清出來,但是我們把這個針特別留在健保裡面,裝潢裡面,因為這個是對台灣很重要的事情,這是唯一留下來的罕病跟這個長效症"},{"start":7406.357,"end":7407.017,"text":"跟委員報告我們健保其實是針對這個專款專用27億"},{"start":7424.824,"end":7424.964,"text":"以上補充,謝謝"},{"start":7451.524,"end":7452.144,"text":"那是一針可以撐幾個月"},{"start":7473.919,"end":7501.837,"text":"一針目前有三種有一個月的、三個月的、六個月的所以最長的甚至可以到六個月以上六個月那所以一個人差不多一針是多少六個月一針是健保是多少點那個藥費嘛我們藥費1.1元那有不同的廠牌大概是九千多點到一萬出頭多點所以才特別專款專用所以一個人差不多一年要兩萬多塊的藥費那有需要施打的有多少人"},{"start":7502.797,"end":7505.7,"text":"跟委員報告我們在去年的這個施打有接受這個施打的是3.2萬人"},{"start":7517.877,"end":7532.607,"text":"3.2萬,所以你的預算是夠的那你健保局很會殺價,你就去殺價再去殺啊每一個打啊,因為打那個藥我個人觀察是很有效的,真的大家做得很乖乖啊不然你現在讓他回去家,你溫死的啊"},{"start":7534.309,"end":7548.53,"text":"這對家屬是一個很沉重的負擔啊家屬大家社區看到這種病人那真的大家不都要大了稍微這個專業的見解跟我們先母親來努力的方向是一致的"},{"start":7549.798,"end":7578.725,"text":"所以該打的就打啦你是精神科專科你是該打就打啦要把他殺低一點以後這些你有重大傷病的或是山上所致大家都住處乖乖的這樣就沒問題了不然你有滑滑照不定時照彈的那是很危險的事情這兩天這個桃園這個軒然大波是抱一個小孩子嘛我有傷害到那個小孩子嗎有沒有抓到的時候還好"},{"start":7583.446,"end":7583.606,"text":"再來就"},{"start":7606.556,"end":7631.511,"text":"回到家裡之後我們是不是有專家、醫師、團隊組成一個team就好像我們癌症病人這樣是一個team work到家裡去訪視那由醫生帶隊還是怎麼樣我們要做這個重點現在是有外展的一個服務嗎如果有必要的話是有外展的服務那這個可以做得更完善一點嗎現在"},{"start":7634.037,"end":7660.206,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們目前對於這個病人的治療方式有非常多種那剛剛委員提到的就是說居家治療就是我們的醫療團隊外展到病人的家裡面那搭配剛剛所提到的長效徵記的話其實效果是會很好的那居家治療這個部分目前也是由健保在做那你剛剛講的這些社工員、心理師這個都是正職的公務的缺還是都是約聘的還是外包的"},{"start":7661.271,"end":7687.832,"text":"這個都是聘用人員是由地方政府來禁用那經費是我們中央政府經費是由中央部分補助但是我們是補助的這個7成以上啦看每個地方政府的一個財力狀況所以待遇是OK不要最最大的那個那個低薪是中央造成的不會的因為他們的這個條薪呢也是跟著公務人員的這個條薪那休假是比較勞保"},{"start":7689.652,"end":7691.192,"text":"我們努力爭取謝謝召委"},{"start":7720.836,"end":7735.181,"text":"那心理這邊OK嗎?這邊沒問題吧?該寬烈就要寬烈啦!我們不會無理的來刪,我們一定是全力支持啦!不該發的當然不要發啦!好!謝謝!謝謝部長!好!謝謝蘇欽前委員!"},{"start":7752.239,"end":7758.446,"text":"來,我們接續請圖千玺委員質詢。好,謝謝主席,那請我們邱部長。部長請。"},{"start":7763.976,"end":7790.761,"text":"委員好部長辛苦那也感謝你在假日期間也這麼關心我們基層跑了那麼多行程辛苦感謝委員對桃園醫界那麼的關懷大家都非常感動謝謝部長那我們今天專案報告是主要是針對社區精神病患照護優化這個部分那我們也看了一下我們這幾年來針對這些"},{"start":7793.001,"end":7817.366,"text":"像我們這一部分的預算都有增加嘛那不知道增加以後這一部分部長覺得這一部分的成效如何我想由今天找到的報告從不管是從人力的一個點的建置人力的增加數字的提升我想還有預算的增加都是一直符合社會的需求的桌前性來邁進更正常來邁進"},{"start":7820.988,"end":7842.165,"text":"事實上其實我也知道我看到大家都在努力可是其實我們目前看到實際的成效感覺還是不足而且這些社會事件還是不斷的發生那我們先看一下我們上禮拜這個影片相信最近大家都很關注這個社會事件我們先看一下這部影片"},{"start":7852.864,"end":7865.415,"text":"那這部影片也是最近大家很關心在我們桃園龜山那有一個18歲的中度生長那搶乳的9歲女童的事件"},{"start":7877.362,"end":7906.442,"text":"部長 這個影片雖然只有26秒但是你看這個影片我相信對這個女童一定是一輩子的噩夢那本系也了解當然這個加害人他是中度的身心障礙者但是依照我們身心障礙權益保障法主管單位當然是地方政府但是我們中央機關主管單位是衛福部那針對這部分我們衛福部有去關心受害者還有這個家屬嗎"},{"start":7907.142,"end":7907.176,"text":"本集完"},{"start":7908.567,"end":7936.694,"text":"我想我們看到這個影片真的是很難過啦我想我們後續都一定是很努力在關注跟看應該要做的錯我們新建室跟社家屬有去了解嗎有保護福斯來回應因為這一案子涉及疑似性侵害所以第一時間社工有到場陪同被害人的這個家屬那可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":7937.674,"end":7941.698,"text":"對,我們希望衛福部針對協同相關單位來關心女童不要讓她這個未來一輩子造成很大的因緣"},{"start":7958.556,"end":7960.497,"text":"所以當初處理員警是沒有去要求社工說要和解嗎?"},{"start":7988.738,"end":8010.429,"text":"所以針對這部分我相信衛福部應該也很重視這個案件那近年來針對精神疾病身心障礙因為刑事犯罪案件常常上這個社會版面那當然也對我們社會對精神病患者還有身心障礙者造成很大的誤解那當然我覺得也暴露"},{"start":8011.637,"end":8019.223,"text":"衛福部在立法上還有我們執行前端我覺得在預防作業上好像看起來有很大的疏失"},{"start":8020.523,"end":8048.434,"text":"那部長針對這部分有沒有你覺得這部分是不是有很大改進的空間謝謝委員我們在針對精神病或身心障礙的照護其實是要多元化來處理那我們是希望往前來減低一個危險那所以在國際間其實在社工啊怎麼樣都希望不是"},{"start":8049.332,"end":8074.951,"text":"不是好像去檢查檢查員而是說平常就要去照顧的一個深入在那邊瞭解整個社區的狀況這樣才能夠減少risk對啊所以我覺得這部分我們覺得這個預防真的是非常非常的重要那而且針對我們衛福部統計國內零有身心障礙慢性精神疾病患者已經突破13萬人對不對"},{"start":8076.992,"end":8089.83,"text":"那我們看到這不僅這個患者一直增加而且相關精神病患者殺人致死的案件也增加對不對看起來這個數據好像都是逐年在增加可能要看一下確實的數據"},{"start":8092.554,"end":8106.973,"text":"好那沒關係因為法務部那邊對因為我們這個根據我們有統計啦齁這個看起來都沒有減少而且感覺都在增加那本系列看到我們針對衛福部新建師"},{"start":8108.094,"end":8128.684,"text":"他在有關強化精神醫療還有精神病患收治這一部分他的預算是減編的那減編的理由是怎麼樣這案件一直增加那這預算減編是成效不好還是怎麼樣不管為什麼這案件一直增加這個數量一直增加結果這預算反而是減少的你看一下從113年到114年這預算"},{"start":8138.522,"end":8144.35,"text":"減少3.7%新建室在強化精神醫療及社會資源經費的部分是減少2.7%那"},{"start":8148.127,"end":8168.021,"text":"我不了解在案件一直增加然後預算減少是什麼情形有些事在其他的計畫有編我們是不是請市長跟委員報告我這邊是社公司我説明一下關於那個小康計畫的經費減少的原因那小康計畫他收支的對樣是早期的那個找不到家屬沒有身分的入島病人"},{"start":8168.541,"end":8168.941,"text":"那從客觀的預算來看我們"},{"start":8197.817,"end":8214.27,"text":"這一部分我看精神病人我看好像我們針對這些收容好像這些精神病人對於好像這些治療都是抗拒或者不敢就醫那針對社家屬針對這一部分有沒有提出解決的辦法"},{"start":8220.322,"end":8248.131,"text":"委員的意思是...對啊,其實這些精神病患據我們了解啦可能也因為社會給他們造成汙名化也造成很多的誤解所以我們目前了解到好像他實質的成效並不是太好是不是因為這些精神病的患者家屬沒有讓他們去就醫而且還是這些精神病患會有抗拒的問題社家屬有了解這部分嗎?"},{"start":8249.737,"end":8275.774,"text":"這個的確以我一個醫師的經驗的確是有會發生這種情況我在30年前在偏鄉在做服務的時候也常常會看到這樣的病人他有些是被關在家裡旁邊的小房子關了30年對啊那我們衛福部社家屬這部分是不是有推展身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫是不是有提這部分的計畫"},{"start":8278.018,"end":8278.839,"text":"對,可是看你們預算中心的報告齁"},{"start":8307.518,"end":8322.347,"text":"我們針對身心障礙服務據點安置的情形這個安置率整體不到八成而且在我們花蓮宜蘭甚至只有六成六成多所以針對這部分覺得成效如何"},{"start":8323.953,"end":8348.619,"text":"看起來這個成效如果在針對身心障礙精神病患者他本身又抗拒又不敢就醫那這個八成的安置率是整體的那我們針對身心障礙精神病患者我們覺得他就醫的比例可能又更低對不對那針對這部分看起來這安置率更低我們有沒有什麼因應改善的措施啊"},{"start":8350.185,"end":8366.79,"text":"跟委員報告服務的安置率的部分我們是每一個年度在新年度開始會重新開始來計算他的服務人數跟統計那以我們現在統計到今年的6月我們的服務的使用率是到85.4%那其實是一直會持續的穩定的來增長"},{"start":8370.891,"end":8398.283,"text":"好我希望注意一下因為你這是整體的安置率所以我剛剛有特別講針對精神病身心障礙的應該是更低所以你整體都只有八成甚至有些根本只有六成多所以這部分應該要特別注意那以他們來講應該這個安置率應該是更低那還有像我們桃園龜山這一類身心障礙犯罪的案例我們看過去也蠻多的還有特別就是像我們"},{"start":8400.009,"end":8401.05,"text":"年底以前絕對沒問題嘛對不對"},{"start":8423.372,"end":8438.207,"text":"12月14日那我們有看針對我們這部分要在社區廣設心理衛生中心衛福部的方針是這樣嗎那而且好像平均在33萬人我們設一個"},{"start":8441.536,"end":8455.765,"text":"新衛中心那針對這一部分當然我們也希望能夠多增設那預防重疑治療可是據我們看喔從2023年我們身心障礙社工的缺額大概有300個"},{"start":8457.206,"end":8474.536,"text":"新衛中心社工的缺額有748個而且看起來他的離職率跟流動率也是居高不下那我們社家屬針對這一部分你一直增加新衛中心可是這社工數的缺額還是一直在增加我們"},{"start":8475.396,"end":8479.639,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這個我們也透過了改善薪資的結構強化專業的信任還有督導協助輔導的一個方式來提升他的留任的意願"},{"start":8505.255,"end":8532.742,"text":"我們希望這新版的精神衛生法請部長一定要在年底前如期上路那針對身心障礙還有心胃中心社工缺額的問題我們一個月內可不可以提出因應社工缺額問題的改善計畫好我們會提出改善計畫好那請部長我們一個月能不能提出這改善計畫因為這之前已經講很多了好沒問題好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝杜委員謝謝部長現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8543.328,"end":8543.368,"text":"主席"},{"start":9137.315,"end":9142.078,"text":"好,我們繼續開會請王振旭委員質詢好,非常感謝主席我們有請部長部長好部長"},{"start":9162.628,"end":9182.283,"text":"你好你好謝謝你今天早上有做相當完整的報告包括人力啦或者是一些對峙地點的部件的確能夠強化有關於我們對於這個精神病患在各方面的照顧不過我相信今天的這個安排應該是針對於"},{"start":9184.204,"end":9210.663,"text":"我們在10月底的個案出現了這種困擾希望能夠更有效的來加強如果能夠把這些在現場發生的問題看如何做有效的解決這個當然就會牽扯到通報機制所以我們今天就希望能夠利用這個機會來請教一下部長還有相關的主管我們的這些長官們來了解"},{"start":9211.323,"end":9235.38,"text":"在現場的話我們還有沒有其他更好的機制來處理我們也知道其實很多的專家學者都會告訴我們說出現問題的現場裡面我們如何能夠去避免所謂的旁觀者效應還有在現場我們也觀察到公民參與的這個能力其實相對是不夠"},{"start":9237.173,"end":9259.79,"text":"所謂旁觀者效應就是當我們看到一個事件的時候可能就這樣路過了因為這個10歲的女童剛剛也了解相信這個女童需要後續的關懷那我們也期待這樣的影響不至於對她終生造成不當的影響那如果能夠有更多的旁觀者在第一時間就能夠努力的來"},{"start":9260.811,"end":9279.043,"text":"主角這個事情的話我想對這個女童應該有很大的幫忙所以目前有網路通報當然還有電話通報那不知道除了這兩個通報以外那有沒有曾經演練過到底這種網路通報的迅速性是如何那電話通報通常都是以110為這個通報的"},{"start":9281.084,"end":9281.164,"text":"衛生福利部長針對"},{"start":9298.004,"end":9319.118,"text":"常見的一種處理方法那LINE的有沒有機會透過衛福部這邊一起來合作的一些方案出來讓民眾在使用LINE的時候也可以有機會來增強這方面的更綿密的這個通報體系這邊不知道部長或者相關的主管同仁有沒有相關一些意見可以提供參考"},{"start":9319.929,"end":9334.656,"text":"好 謝謝委員這麼對這個議題提出這麼精闢的一些方向跟指教那我想我們從強化社會安全往計畫第一期就開始一直都在"},{"start":9335.656,"end":9353.462,"text":"用線上通報這個部分也透過各個單位跟民眾各網路單位跟民眾都能夠透過這個系統來通報當然這個也包括警政、衛政、民政、教育、勞動、人民等單位那有各個專...整合各個專機"},{"start":9355.323,"end":9372.919,"text":"來求助專線那當然後續我們更像這樣的事情我們目前來講就是網路跟民眾的通報如果緊急的話當然就是110跟119通報警消那我們也設立了call center做專業的一個"},{"start":9375.7,"end":9391.586,"text":"希望在第一線能夠有能夠馬上得到很好的處理那剛剛委員提的旁觀者這個部分的確是我們社會我們要大家一起來努力的我們過去在推CPR或怎麼樣也都"},{"start":9392.546,"end":9420.063,"text":"也都希望大家能夠隨時都不要當參與者這個部分也是我們要努力的至於比較具體有沒有要那個新認識跟委員報告一下謝謝委員的確透過民眾的一個通報讓我們在社區裡面還沒有機會接觸到我們的醫療體系的可以透過民眾的通報或者是說我們的第一線網路的服務人力在服務的過程裡面發現有疑似精神病人的話"},{"start":9420.503,"end":9447.227,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9447.5,"end":9467.496,"text":"好,基本上就是希望大家比較潔薄啦尤其是如果看到社區有相關這些精神不是很穩定啦或者是他有可能傷人或是自傷的話那如果大家比較潔薄就能夠把這個網絡做得更綿密可以減少家庭這方面的負擔"},{"start":9468.537,"end":9491.332,"text":"也期待大家都能夠共同來關心我們這些在思學試調上有適應上有困難的這些民眾我想社會是一體的我們期待大家的這些安全都能夠達到比較完整的一個保護好 謝謝再來就要請教我們上個禮拜五有跟院長討論了一些跨部會的議題跟這個"},{"start":9494.534,"end":9509.966,"text":"有三個比較大的議題在這個地方來請教一下部長包括這個推動智慧醫療的部分我們知道基層診所的VPN相關的系統真的非常非常的緩慢這部分再來部長"},{"start":9511.087,"end":9531.283,"text":"有沒有更好的方式來改善因為我們知道在這個導致健康台灣的策略八裡面是要加速醫療資訊的升級智慧醫療服務要轉型這個VPN速度如果做不好要提高這個真的是很困難而且反不及急因為"},{"start":9532.344,"end":9550.474,"text":"整所通常要健保醫療服務打疫苗做篩檢這東西尤其你要登錄影像的時候真的需要有更快速的這些網路系統的作業這部分部長有沒有更好的方式或者是有哪些在加強中"},{"start":9550.874,"end":9568.326,"text":"我想這個都是要資源來建構了那謝謝委員這麼關心我們第一線守護人民健康的基層的一個醫療院所而且他們的確就是一直這個問題一直"},{"start":9570.527,"end":9597.299,"text":"是他們的訴求我想在政府方面我們在其中明年也編了8億元將要來補助醫療院所的一個網路的頻寬那其中有2億元會放在基層那我們真的很希望把基層的一個整個VPN的系統讓他們不管是跟資料的整理或跟要取得或者跟大醫院的一個"},{"start":9599.783,"end":9623.892,"text":"結合這個部分的資訊環境能夠獲得改善這個我們希望明年應該會有具體的改善希望這個改善至少讓所有的醫療從業人員可以很迅速的來處理他們一些行政措施再來第一點就是有關於這個醫療院所電價動漲的部分我相信很多委員真的非常非常的關心阿妹你"},{"start":9626.033,"end":9648.136,"text":"還有其他要注意的地方嗎?因為我們也知道醫療院所都已經被同意是需要這個電價凍漲還有其他相關的部門包括一些製藥的行業還有一些社福NGO當然也都是在提供醫療服務給民眾的話這部分不知道有其他的做法嗎?"},{"start":9648.957,"end":9662.503,"text":"當然才在長照體系方面,當然他有他的規定,如果是公益的才方便的,會有可能在動作或補助這個部分。"},{"start":9666.525,"end":9692.014,"text":"那製藥部門呢?因為那個工廠要行善嘛他的那個電力的使用其實也很需要關注我們對於來爭取的那個的行業我們都基於關心而且但是要尊重那個在經濟部他們的委員會的一個審查還有他們的規定那我們會衛福部會當然站在照顧"},{"start":9693.118,"end":9720.335,"text":"只要是公益又照顧人民健康需要的而且譬如說藥品方面他當然不能讓藥品做不下去又切藥藥產業都應該是要共同關心真的都是要關心的那這個部分只要有反應我們都會來了解那看看幫怎麼樣來一起爭取那這個食藥不曉得有沒有什麼要補充"},{"start":9721.796,"end":9745.538,"text":"謝謝委員我們會把這個製藥還有相關的醫療的產業納進來一併做跨部會的討論謝謝那就麻煩還有最後有關於這個國人健檢的費用有沒有機會納入這個稅有的扣除那這部分不曉得部長有沒有哪一些的比較具體的想法如何能夠跟財政部做一些溝通"},{"start":9746.567,"end":9769.816,"text":"我8年前在第一會期剛進立法院就是在財政委員會我第一個提案可能就是除了承襲我們蘇昭偉這個醫療法行者合理化這個努力以外提出的案當然也提出了分級醫療相關的事情另外就是提這個"},{"start":9770.536,"end":9792.441,"text":"因為我覺得這對人民的健康是重要的但是應該沒有後來在財政委員會沒有出委員會那個時候的財政部長其實他自己也是生病的人他自己很覺得很需要但是可能那個時候氣氛還沒有到成熟那我個人覺得我很敬佩王委員"},{"start":9793.661,"end":9822.318,"text":"能夠再度提出來那尤其是在健康臺灣推展當中特別著重在身體的健康能夠早期發現對個人對家庭是很幸福的所以我也希望這個將來應該會在財政委員會方面去討論我想那也拜託在那一邊的能夠幫忙那這個對人民的健康幸福能夠我們現在在看很多很多像大腸癌你如果有早期"},{"start":9824.357,"end":9848.189,"text":"發現幾乎都是第1期、第2期讓他留正頭看來像第三期、第4期那個大概就那個死亡率就不一樣了那我們現在2030年你要想要降低癌症的死亡率三分之一篩檢是非常困難的篩檢是非常重要的如果能夠加上這個的話我相信一定有鼓勵的作用"},{"start":9849.529,"end":9872.067,"text":"也讓民眾、也讓醫院都能夠共同來完成這個比較好的一個健康照顧因為這是一個必要的支出嘛我們是很支持啦我們初衷不變啦就是為了人民的健康來看看怎麼樣更健康啦好,這樣感謝部長感謝聖和烈士的官員們謝謝主席"},{"start":9877.977,"end":9905.254,"text":"好,謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。繼續我們請嘉賓、封家賓委員質詢。主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的總監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴。有請邱部長及心理健康室的政司長。"},{"start":9911.283,"end":9927.72,"text":"委員好!部長好!市長好!我過去在擔任地方政府副首長、副縣長的時候,常常有人問到我這個問題。考一下,部長,如果有人說在社區發現有攻擊性的疑似精神疾患者,要怎麼處理?是打119找救護車,還是打110叫警車?"},{"start":9932.497,"end":9958.282,"text":"應該是先,如果以民眾來講,應該是要先打119跟119我再問你要打119,好我這樣直接講好了啦因為一般民眾他搞不清楚,說有人拿棍子亂打人,他第一個忙想叫警察但是有代理人知道這個可能是精神疾患者,可能就叫救護車但是呢通常警察跟消防局接到之後都會問說應該是叫對方去啦"},{"start":9959.604,"end":9979.106,"text":"那我想今天我們關心社區精神衛生,不只是要解決我們精神衛生疾患者的需求,也要去處理誰?處理這些應戶,要去面對處置這些精神疾患者的這些工作人員,對不對?包括醫護人員,也可能包括警察,也可能包括下方員,是不是這樣?"},{"start":9980.551,"end":10006.116,"text":"我們來看一下英雄有淚不輕彈這是一個火神的眼淚這個年輕的消防員說我沒有生病我就是工作壓力太大請問部長你會不會認為說消防員會有心理創傷你認為造成心理創傷的原因是什麼譬如說我們屏東名陽的大火你覺得這些消防員火場上眼見自己的好弟兄失去了生命你覺得他們受得了嗎當然受不了那怎麼辦"},{"start":10008.12,"end":10032.907,"text":"一定要有一個輔導的機制要有一個心理上的輔導好往下看其實呢消防會有沒有心理創傷我們剛剛到了加害搶救啦、急難救助啦、搜救、災害預防等等等火場會遇到這個情況你認為醫護人員會不會有類似的情況重大的嬌生事故、重大的天然災害在急診處一大堆的傷患在哀嚎你覺得醫護人員會不會也有心理創傷所以所謂的PTSD"},{"start":10034.744,"end":10048.896,"text":"就是創傷後壓力症候群我想任何人都會有尤其是從事這種面對高風險高張力壓力的不管是消防員還是醫護人員對不對是的那請問你過去長久在醫界醫界怎麼去面對這個問題醫護人員的所謂的PDSD"},{"start":10055.462,"end":10057.844,"text":"我們醫療體制有沒有來協助我們的醫護人員去面對這個問題?一定有,你好像是推測,你是部長欸"},{"start":10070.772,"end":10086.165,"text":"我現在要問你為什麼我會先問你這個因為我問你說如果是消防署長我問他消防員工作權益促進會他們在2021年的統計臺灣的消防員罹患PTSD的盛行率高達了9.2%你覺得跟我們臺灣的醫護人員相較起來哪一個比較高可能沒有答案是不是我覺得消防員的"},{"start":10095.601,"end":10102.385,"text":"壓力更大因為它是蠻急性的所以你覺得要怎麼樣去協助下方員面對這個PTSD"},{"start":10107.37,"end":10131.972,"text":"這個應該提出一個協助的方案好很好我想衛福部應該有對我們醫護人員這樣的協助方案但是我們看一下地方的縣市政府的員工協助方案他就是說一個在任何的職場員工都可以去協助他解決這些問題很籠統啦請問部長你覺得像這樣的一個地方政府的員工協助方案他可以配合消防員的排班時間可以適用在消防員的工作情境嗎"},{"start":10132.853,"end":10152.46,"text":"或者將心比心,你覺得如果這樣的通用方案可以適合我們的醫護人員嗎?防範還不足不夠?好,那你知道消防署一年他只有6次的個別諮商那消防員有時候需要是短期的,有時候需要長期的你覺得以目前內政部的政策足以滿足消防員需要的這個心理諮商服務嗎?"},{"start":10154.709,"end":10176.94,"text":"這個當然就是要專家來做評論如果可能要精神或者心理師專家來討論看看幾次是比較適合因為你是我們內閣當中你能掌握這些醫療的專業資源你可以清楚的告訴內政部長告訴消防署長"},{"start":10178.414,"end":10198.18,"text":"為了避免我們消防員罹患的這個PTSD,我們應該怎麼去安排這些心理諮商的服務?對不對?你同不同意?內閣要看你啊。你可以來給他們一些建議嗎?我願意承擔這個專業的一個順序。好,很好。那既然這樣成立,我也問問內政部長。你知道為什麼消防員不願意使用現有的資源嗎?第一個,他們排班時間沒辦法配合。"},{"start":10198.88,"end":10223.15,"text":"第二他們怕同儕長官的異樣眼光你覺得他會承認說我只能去打火看到那個焦黑的屍體抬出來我受不了我需要休息三天很難講啊英雄有淚不輕彈啊所以呢但我呢他就去面對一個他沒有陌生的諮商師他可能也不談講講那你覺得你如果要協助我們的行政院協助內政部協助消防署你覺得要怎麼提升消防員對心理資源輔導的接受度和使用率"},{"start":10226.163,"end":10245.595,"text":"市長簡單的答問因為時間的關係謝謝委員關切我們消防員的心理健康的確不管是警察或是消防或是我們醫護人員在執行業務的過程裡面一定會面臨到類似的狀況那最近其實消防署是沒有找我們談但是警政署有"},{"start":10246.275,"end":10250.938,"text":"有擔當的司長,現在希望有擔當的部長來往下看。最後的結論,我們所有的執法人員,所有的公務員,包括醫護人員,包括警察,包括消防員,你必須是一個健全的人,才會是一個有溫度的執法者。"},{"start":10268.268,"end":10295.549,"text":"我為什麼今天問這個議題呢?我當然是長期關心我們社區精神衛生健康但是我曾經遇到一位心理諮商師他輔導過消防員他說那個救護車開出去啊那個年輕的消防員呢他開始有一些心理障礙為什麼?他在一次出行當中沒想到救來的是他的阿嬤而且Oka那他從此之後呢他就覺得人家心理諮商師問他說啊你會不會覺得難過需要我幫你怎麼樣他說沒有啊我沒有感覺了"},{"start":10296.877,"end":10313.111,"text":"一個第一線的工作者當他對人沒有感覺的時候不只對他傷害啊對他的工作對他的對象也是個很嚴重的傷害我們希望我們所有的醫護人員、執法人員包括消防員是一個健全的人他才會是一個有溫度的對待他的服務對象的你同意嗎"},{"start":10313.812,"end":10334.761,"text":"同意,而且一定要往這方面來進行做。好,所以最後的結論,我希望說您要協助我們的消防署,要跟民間智商來特約合作,提供消防員長期的心腹資源,讓消防員能夠跟我們心腹師建立信任關係,來協助他穩定他的情緒。所以結論呢,希望你們來協助內政部消防署,定期調查消防員罹犯PTSD的情況。"},{"start":10335.521,"end":10350.152,"text":"而且與內政部來合作建立跨部會消防員的關懷機制,主動提供長期的,而不是被動的,是主動的心理輔導資源,可以嗎?可以,這個應該要做的。好,謝謝,謝謝部長。謝謝委員。謝謝曾委員,謝謝部長。那繼續我們請林國成委員質詢。好,謝謝主席,我請邱部長。"},{"start":10365.25,"end":10366.03,"text":"邀請衛生福利部長針對"},{"start":10386.482,"end":10410.44,"text":"可是這個問題是牽涉到社會安全網的一個大問題但是醫療的問題當然是衛福部所以當然啦所有的問題也不能苛責邱部長這邊但最起碼整個社會網社會網的司令是一定要去檢討的"},{"start":10412.802,"end":10434.661,"text":"所以啊我從台北啊10月9號有一個一名女子啊無緣無故坐了公車就被人家推下去這個就是精神有問題那然後然後這個不是只有一次喔他有推人推下車的紀錄12次"},{"start":10437.338,"end":10458.009,"text":"在10月12號在台南也是列館的精神病患但是季節就醫持刀啊祭補對抗警察這個接下來10月27在桃園也是發生一個女童被一個中度身心障礙"},{"start":10460.03,"end":10478.74,"text":"強弩的案件這等等10月份喔就有三件這個當然跟社區啊這些醫療網當然有關所以要讓部長啊瞭解這整整個社區醫療網的重要性重要性所以啊我在這裡啊特別"},{"start":10479.58,"end":10505.807,"text":"要強調我們不是對這些生病身經障礙有歧視不是可是這個是一個問題所以我們該怎麼樣來解決所以我在想這社會網的問題很重要但是我們醫療網的治療就醫也是非常重要所以我要特別提醒部長在這裡只要只要"},{"start":10506.647,"end":10522.016,"text":"有這個機會當然這個是行政院要跨部會把它當成真正一個問題所以我在這裡就要請教我們社工師你認為這個社工人力以及他的流動力你認為"},{"start":10524.078,"end":10538.025,"text":"針對這個部分當然社工還要做很多事啦在這個部分可以看得出來地方政府的社工啊在等等這些確確實實流動力是很高的人力是不足的你看針對這個問題"},{"start":10540.046,"end":10556.722,"text":"對於這些社區醫療丸你有什麼看法來市長在市長回答前我先報告一下我想感謝我們委員過去在臺北市擔任議座的時候協助我們臺北市醫師公會跟社會來邁出腳步來跟社會安全網"},{"start":10560.505,"end":10560.685,"text":"來,來,那個市長"},{"start":10584.984,"end":10605.278,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那的確這些社會問題除了我們社工專業人員之外因為個案的問題跟家庭比較複雜所以其實我們在社安網的第二期除了社工人力我們也增加了其他的專業人員包括心理師還有相關的復健師還有觀訪員等等一起來努力那在整個"},{"start":10605.618,"end":10605.638,"text":"好"},{"start":10624.813,"end":10625.073,"text":"市長我知道了"},{"start":10639.915,"end":10659.194,"text":"我主要的問題點出兩點一個人力不足的問題流動力偏高的問題這個你要幫部長去把問題找出來懲告給部長來做你的後盾其實社工不足是一個非常重要還有流動力之高為什麼流動力之高因為高危險欸"},{"start":10660.535,"end":10660.976,"text":"最後我要特別提醒"},{"start":10682.276,"end":10712.116,"text":"我說實在有時候你們責任很重大現在大法官做成解釋死刑連精神病患也不能判死刑全部責任丟給你們這是對你們當然不公平但是你們要面對啊沒辦法精神病患不能判死刑等等這些這個我們也知道病人家屬那種千頭萬系的那種痛苦是非常痛苦的"},{"start":10713.097,"end":10736.176,"text":"但是不要忘了社區只要有一個精神病患那整個社區也不得安寧所以我在這裡要特別跟部長建議第一個法令三個月的觀察期這個部分該強制的就要強制就是用暫時性的這些就醫也是一個辦法"},{"start":10736.977,"end":10757.372,"text":"你這個人不把他放出來他什麼時候為非作歹他根本就是精神失掉控制所以這些用暫時性的東西不要在那邊三個月觀察再來去做這些我跟你講一個正常人說實在的被殺死了以後講快點以現在的這種法律制度來講"},{"start":10759.433,"end":10783.945,"text":"該死的人不死不該死的人死這是很殘忍的事啊所以拜託部長在這個部分法令不足的地方拜託社區安全的這個部分部長你要拿出因應之道不要說還有觀察期才可以就醫該暫時就醫就要就醫這樣可以緩緩很多事情好不好部長謝謝委員指教我們來好不好我們來演繹"},{"start":10785.766,"end":10789.527,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝主席、謝謝林委員、謝謝部長。接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢。謝謝主席。楊瓊英發言,邀請部長。"},{"start":10809.716,"end":10826.095,"text":"今天主席安排的這個議題我覺得非常的有意義而且也是我們整個臺灣非常重要關鍵的這個議題所以本席首先請教在上個禮拜呢那這個桃園龜山有發生女童被這個當街"},{"start":10828.158,"end":10846.558,"text":"強行的來這個強暴被擄在這樣的情況之下還好有路人來幫忙有路人來幫忙但是他的心裡已經是心生恐懼那我們看到了這個加害者呢是什麼呢是18歲的中度智障這個障礙人士"},{"start":10847.259,"end":10870.936,"text":"那當然相關的單位他會去做評估是不是要需要加強的醫療也會請社會單位來介入孩子需不需要這個心理輔導但是目前整個案件偵查中進度只有有限量的去透露在這樣子的案件我們實在是看到很不捨而且層出不窮"},{"start":10871.916,"end":10890.457,"text":"這是我們社會不定時的炸彈不定時的炸彈那所以我們的整個政府的這個社會安全網他到底出了什麼狀況為什麼會如此所以我首先要請教部長在精神病患社區照護的困境"},{"start":10891.198,"end":10892.059,"text":"請教部長"},{"start":10913.194,"end":10939.547,"text":"好,非常謝謝委員那我們衛生法、精神衛生法在今年12月14號實行那也是過去兩年前也是委員的指導大家的努力把它通過整個修法那我們希望更周全那當然實行到現在我們就講直接的困境第一個就是當然對精神疾病的認知不足還有汙名化那這個部分我們希望能夠"},{"start":10941.537,"end":10967.826,"text":"從衛教、各級政府來讓民眾能夠正確認識精神病的一個建立一個友善的支持環境。第二個我們的儀式個案的通報這個機制要再加強強化社區儀式精神病的通報及轉介特別是醫療外展的一個服務這個部分我們在衛福部也很努力在做社區支援的部件也需要來加強我們會爭取預算"},{"start":10970.485,"end":10986.188,"text":"也在5年內我們也預註了13.9億將要強化精神病人社區資源的服務部長你現在所說的這一些就是我們非常明顯導致目前的漏洞是非常的清楚"},{"start":10986.869,"end":11003.834,"text":"你所說的這五項包括認知不足你要怎麼做你是不是應該到整個我們的社團團體裡頭趕快去做宣導加強宣導你如果沒有這麼做大家當然認知不足啊第二個你說通報機制"},{"start":11005.903,"end":11026.784,"text":"這個部分要怎麼樣去做調整要怎麼去做調整第三個你說外展非常的重要這個外展非常的重要要怎麼去能夠銜接的上接下來你說社區你到底在12月14號你12月14號你所謂的要修法後要上路"},{"start":11027.901,"end":11049.681,"text":"那你支援你剛才說的5年13.92億是不是是5年13.92億你怎麼有辦法去解決目前台灣現在所面臨的困境那當然只是強化這是不夠嘛社區而已啦對啊當然很多疾病當然我們的剛剛有報告所以部長本期認為我們在12月14號直接討論12月14號"},{"start":11053.985,"end":11073.145,"text":"你這個上路有關係到整個嚴重病人強制住院那你要怎麼樣去做你強制住院強制就醫你強制就醫的部分你要由兩名的精神科醫師來提出申請但是你改為向法院去申請"},{"start":11074.839,"end":11095.655,"text":"兩名醫師那你現在改為由法院去申請而且你還要由法官據醫師身份來做參選員參審員而且跟病人的權益代表來組成一個合議體由過半意見來決定之針對於強制住院的延長次數有限制"},{"start":11096.786,"end":11119.742,"text":"部長這一個有限制我提出高度的懷疑你應該是針對他所需而不是去限制他的次數那這樣子沒有辦法去落實所以本席針對這個議題我非常的關心也就是說你把它改為由兩名精神科醫師提出由剛剛本席所說的這個合議制"},{"start":11121.403,"end":11148.246,"text":"和議會裡頭來做決定而且還要限制他強制住院這個一個那所以本席首先要請教也就是你針對於你的相關的教育訓練教育訓練還有你的治療所需的這個資源那因為12月14號現在已經是11月了我們剩下一個月左右的時間就要上路你的"},{"start":11150.135,"end":11152.089,"text":"這一個教育訓練你做足了功課嗎?"},{"start":11154.358,"end":11181.298,"text":"請教消息信念的話我們行政司請行政司跟委員報告委員剛剛特別關切的就是有關於這個強制住院改由法院來做審理我們準備好了沒有這件事情因為跟司法院相關的這個部分我們的施行日期是要行政院會同司法院訂定所以他的施行日期目前還沒有確定你看今年12月14號要上路的是針對強制住院以外的這些"},{"start":11182.478,"end":11204.268,"text":"這個相關的條文會在今年的12月14號12月14部長我再跟你討論以外的部分就是外展那未來醫院他這個機構他會背負著越來越多越來越多你的法定責任跟公衛的業務對不對是不是部長是那你要怎麼樣去增加他們相關的醫療這個資源"},{"start":11210.123,"end":11229.675,"text":"請說你不能只有做半套嘛你剛才說的第三點很重要你的外展啊那你的相關的資源要放下去啊那你的訓練也要啊我們不只在人力跟機構機構跟人力都一直在增加一直在增加部長我請你"},{"start":11230.515,"end":11231.676,"text":"你應該有一套配套嘛"},{"start":11253.115,"end":11267.546,"text":"對不對才能夠真正就落實嘛你把這個書面資料給本席喔但是我還是要告訴你一句話也就是我們現在社會面臨到這麼大的挑戰黑數因為漏洞導致黑數沒有辦法去糾正"},{"start":11268.707,"end":11291.675,"text":"這一塊是我非常的關心因為從社會學的角度去看這個是社會面向非常迫切需要非常迫切需要怎麼樣讓我們的社會安全網能夠真正的安全這是全民的共識全民的希望所以因此我要特別的來告訴你也就是你要怎麼樣的我剛剛特別講了精神復健"},{"start":11292.435,"end":11309.667,"text":"也就是他的資源你要怎麼做分配所以我告訴你從醫院到你的社區到你的社區的照護你有沒有個管的平台因為最佳的漏洞點就是在這個醫院到社區這個空窗期"},{"start":11310.347,"end":11334.153,"text":"你有沒有個管的平台?你建構了個管的平台嗎?你們目前掌控的情況到底是怎麼樣?因為必須要從社政、從勞政、從衛政以及從教育的行政這些要聯合成一個一個整體的一個安全網才能夠真正落實所以本需要請教到底你們個管的平台建構了沒?"},{"start":11334.713,"end":11360.707,"text":"報告委員,那個公館平臺我們非常努力在建立請說說你,跟委員報告我們為了要銜接從醫院出院之後回到社區希望他能夠無縫銜接對,現在我們12月14號即將這個上路的這個法規裡面就有規定就是說醫院必須要做出院準備計畫而且通報到衛生局讓我們能夠把這些出院病人能夠把他接下來不要讓他在出院之後"},{"start":11361.187,"end":11367.39,"text":"行程一個這個空窗期沒有人去這個是最恐怖的空窗期是所以我們現在法定法規裡面已經有明定了那我們現在關於社區的訪視人力我們也是逐年在做一個補助補助地方政府能夠禁用"},{"start":11376.354,"end":11377.115,"text":"部長我一個結論也就是從醫院到社區你這個銜接"},{"start":11393.775,"end":11406.569,"text":"這個銜接的個管平台是非常的重要因為你必須要透過社區關懷照護而且你要掌控這一位精神病患者他在就醫、就學、就養以及就業的這個型態"},{"start":11408.131,"end":11408.551,"text":"接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢"},{"start":11455.311,"end":11457.043,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是請我們邱部長。"},{"start":11462.355,"end":11467.899,"text":"委員好部長10月9號的時候我在這裡質詢過你就是說衛福部有沒有去盤點目前有公安問題的醫院有幾家因為我當時就說了根據醫策會網站106到112年醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑合格名單有一共有417家而醫院評鑑效期到今年12月31到期的"},{"start":11489.072,"end":11504.184,"text":"這個醫院要重新做評鑑的有117家換言之有1⁄4的家屬將在今年年底都要做那甚至有的已經開始做了就像我們之前講的失火的醫院事實上也都做了"},{"start":11505.345,"end":11509.75,"text":"那你們到底有沒有掌握117家醫院有沒有跟我們屏東失火的醫院一樣有一些管線的問題啦、疏散動線的問題啊這種公安的問題的存在"},{"start":11521.283,"end":11540.686,"text":"那如果有的話已經有前車之鑑我我在11月9號也談一次現在又談一次那我要問你說有到底有問題的有幾家我沒有問題是哪幾家我問的是一共有幾家而評鑑結果出來以前如果有一些問題那你要如何處置"},{"start":11542.315,"end":11558.722,"text":"好 謝謝委員那我的新聞齁那第一個就是說我們相關的事件發生以後我們當然就啟動了補典你直接回答就好了到底有問題還幾經啦你發言沒有為什麼要談這個呢你知道嗎你們從10月9號我補典你也可以再請聽你們從10月9號我質詢問你到現在你們連回答都沒回答"},{"start":11570.146,"end":11573.108,"text":"將近一個月了,連書面的資料都沒有。你們當我們立法院是啥?我們都在這裡問你,你沒說。結束了質詢,也沒有任何書面資料提供給我們。所以你們現在是裝睡的人叫不行呢?還是說直接就不予理會立法院立委的質詢,直接忽略?"},{"start":11592.199,"end":11609.625,"text":"所以今天在這裡我再問你一次你到底能不能告訴我一共有多少的醫院有病安、有公安、醫律而你的補強作為是什麼你們到底盤點了沒你不要扯東扯西你告訴我到底有多少"},{"start":11610.973,"end":11622.101,"text":"因為這個事務應該是要地方政府跟消防局方面阿你以為在這裡諮詢過你們,你們都沒有去盤點,沒有跟地方聯絡,你們醫政會都沒有去看一下所以在這裡連告白話才會公認就沒有了嗎?你不也記住在這裡當不當一回事啊?"},{"start":11631.018,"end":11641.225,"text":"我們在的確也有啟動那個在預測...你告訴我這個答案是什麼立委從10月9號問你到現在將近一個月了你們現在還是回答不出來保證你是說不出來啊還是沒有掌握有類似病安或公安疑慮的有管線問題有疏散動線問題這種公安疑慮的"},{"start":11658.783,"end":11661.924,"text":"我們當然很關心117家有幾家我們很關心醫院的一個保定你答非所問不要在這裡胡說八道我現在問你是一共有幾家有公安的疑慮啦這個恐怕要再調查一下10月9號問你到現在還在恐怕要調查10月9號諮詢過一次了勒所以這個是不曉得你們是"},{"start":11688.342,"end":11693.406,"text":"我們會去調查各個地方政府跟還有消防局他們所調查的結果對啦,什麼時候可以給答案一個月之內好了"},{"start":11710.64,"end":11717.762,"text":"好就再給你一個月希望在一個月裡面大家都平安那我現在不是要繼續談這個我現在要談的是說你們從去年7月1號去年衛福部調整了部分負擔的心智針對門診藥品部分負擔還有急診的部分負擔進行調整"},{"start":11730.686,"end":11757.081,"text":"你們的目的是說要落實分級醫療、珍惜健保資源事實上你們就是希望我們解決急診擁捨還有你們希望大家要分級醫療到地區醫院不要全部擠到這個教學醫院裡面來你們的目的啊就希望大家珍惜醫療資源期待就醫分流解決急診人馬為患的這個狀況然後讓穩定的慢性的病人鼓勵他們到急診診所"},{"start":11758.522,"end":11766.494,"text":"那這種狀況裡面我來看一下這個部長實施一年以後已經一年了成效如何成效如何我們"},{"start":11772.165,"end":11790.693,"text":"實施了以後基層門診的就診案件的佔利從有多的不多啦0.22%那慢性病以及診所就醫率從大概增加了4.61%這個也是比較正面的一個成果的確是有改"},{"start":11791.253,"end":11793.754,"text":"來來部長我替你回答啦因為你現在照稿念嘛因為你們健保署發布新聞稿有五個觀察有初步的成效第一個促進了分級醫療啦"},{"start":11813.604,"end":11838.119,"text":"第二個改善了急診泳舍第三個避免藥品的浪費第四改善付費公平性及健保財務第五持續保障弱勢這個是你們健保署的新聞稿你們的新聞稿其實是來自於健保會第113年第9次的委員會會議資料就是第一案新制部分負擔監測指標的監測結果及成效檢討報告的內容部長你自己有看過嗎?"},{"start":11843.487,"end":11862.715,"text":"新制的部分負擔你這樣子從你當立委到當部長這樣子一路走來這是一個大的政策因為就是長這個部分負擔嘛那你自己有沒有看過這麼重要的這麼重大的政策上的調整一年了有好還是沒有好你自己有看過這個報告嗎?"},{"start":11867.529,"end":11874.278,"text":"由初步的這些成效我認為是有改善,委員也知道我們...所以你們有改善來急診永設嗎?以統計的數字是有進步"},{"start":11879.246,"end":11905.203,"text":"一統計的數字是有進步來我就跟你分享這一些來來來來來來我自己在7月1號就質詢時就跟你分享有我的朋友的家人在急診區等很久一直遲遲等不到病床結果在急診的急診區直接進行插管治療而且除了我以外王正旭委員今年的"},{"start":11905.763,"end":11911.208,"text":"也特別提到好多急診量能滿載王委員很客氣然後國民黨的委員也講了那部長當時也有回答說如果你聽台大吳明顯院長講這個急診的時候後床是日常的事情那我們都知道說民眾要問的不是這樣子民眾要問的是要等多久"},{"start":11932.546,"end":11952.345,"text":"你們認為有改善急診的這個候診時間急診的勇懾有改善那為什麼這一年來等待的時間卻越來越長然後呢調整部分負擔叫大家都不要去然後就說"},{"start":11954.026,"end":11967.377,"text":"一定會改善,而且你們報告說已經有改善,但事實真的那樣子嗎?這個根據健保署的報告,實施條長部分負擔以後每個人負擔的金額比2022年這個第一張"},{"start":11976.889,"end":12002.619,"text":"比2022年來比增加了149人價格調漲了沒有錯這一張來但是呢急診的平均每人就醫次數來到2019年來的歷史新高大概幾到急診裡面的次數創下歷史新高反而是負擔金額最低的2022年的平均每人就醫次數是相對低的"},{"start":12003.539,"end":12013.19,"text":"一百一十一年1.46次到今年次數創新高1.56然後有了漲價啦我們看得出來漲價啦那部長漲價的是事實但是你"},{"start":12018.456,"end":12044.875,"text":"平均國人每人就醫到急診就醫的次數創歷史新高你漲了部分負擔了可是就醫的次數創新高那你們說要以價值量的這個政策手段你說是有效啦這個是有效嗎等待的時間增加錢付的更多品質更下降這個政策就是你們說的急診永設有改善嗎"},{"start":12051.68,"end":12072.608,"text":"謝謝委員指教我了解那個因為會有這樣的趨勢大幅上升阿你們說有效阿他的原因真的是要多元化來分析阿對多元化分析可以好這樣講阿所以你現在又有原因因為可能不是只有一個原因而且這個是不是說我們這樣我們過去也常常在談嘛你到底以價"},{"start":12073.706,"end":12079.952,"text":"以價來質量到底有沒有效?你講得很好欸可是你們當時告訴人家我就是要以價質量啊我要跟你講部分負擔啊要以價質量一定可以控制急診勇社啊可以導引人民到正確的路上去分級醫療啊你們當時就這樣錢都漲了結果你們的政策目的是什麼漲價是手段欸"},{"start":12098.948,"end":12122.946,"text":"你是要大家解決急診涌射的狀況要分級醫療的政策能夠落實結果你的目的是這兩個政策有達到嗎?你的信訊稿說你們達到了所以我問你有達到嗎?你現在又說淡輸了我想我們多年來一直在推展分級醫療改善體系我想我原來...我不要說這個數據就好他提出這個...古年提出這個方法並不是我"},{"start":12130.491,"end":12134.294,"text":"你不要為那個政策買單的意思?那你要調整嗎?不是,我應該是要改善加強基層意見"},{"start":12144.54,"end":12147.602,"text":"我希望民眾真的要相信我們基層醫師基層醫師的能力基層醫療的可靠性然後信任感是叫人民相信就相信的嗎"},{"start":12161.07,"end":12189.289,"text":"你用什麼有效的手段然後再講下一張醫學中心的急診申報件數從疫情以來都是有增無減調整部分負擔以後急診申報件數也是創新高而相對的地區醫院從疫情以來的戰略卻來到新低所以你們自己說我們解決了其實你比較的年度是比較最差的你說你看綠色的地區醫院成長了你怎麼不比109年"},{"start":12191.07,"end":12206.329,"text":"你怎麼不比這個112年112年的去年沒有那個COVID-19的疫情啦他還是下降啊對地區醫院、基層醫院他的就診率下降欸"},{"start":12207.31,"end":12209.732,"text":"反而你來看他粉紅色的醫學中心跟去年比還屢創新高"},{"start":12224.088,"end":12230.013,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面難怪有這種民間團體在質疑啊你漲部分負擔只是為了填補這個健保財務空洞可是呢醫療品質沒有提升急診的等待時間越來越長越來越長所以你剛剛講不是漲價可以解決的漲價的手段你不能把它當成目的啊"},{"start":12252.912,"end":12255.033,"text":"沒有下降啊好再下一張那你們在講說急診減傷戰略你們講說你們有效解決你們剛才那個還報告說健保署還說你們已經解決了這個急診擁捨的狀況我們就來看一般急診我們在減傷一級跟二級我們就看他戰流時間"},{"start":12278.735,"end":12300.421,"text":"一級跟二級就是要命的啦 最急的可是它暫留的時間越來越長而你們自己都知道2019到2024醫學中心急診的相關指標就是減傷一級的急診病人要轉入病房要小於8小時減傷一級要幾分鐘以內馬上立即處理 來 報告 減傷一級是多嚴重"},{"start":12306.503,"end":12325.664,"text":"要立即處理他們要轉入病房內能夠在8個小時裡面轉入不管家戶病房還是什麼病房是時間停留時間他們在8小時裡面就轉到病房的比例越來越少所以他們都暫留的時間越來越多"},{"start":12327.606,"end":12332.649,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面急診暫留時間上升然後減上一級在2024年上半年比2023年的下半年還要多出一個小時來到平均要15.43小時已經是你們建議的8小時的健保品質的兩倍的時間所以上不去所以才有我說的啊直接在急診區直接插管"},{"start":12359.887,"end":12370.649,"text":"這像話嗎?像話嗎?以前八小時裡面就轉到病房去然後馬上處理的以前至少五成而且是作五忘六你看作五忘六急診插管是在救命所以是常見的啊當然即使要上病床也要插管最好是沒有感染的風險啦等一下一堆人走到人來人往可以直接好啦沒關係啦你不要跟我說插管的轉移焦點啦"},{"start":12384.972,"end":12414.111,"text":"我跟您講的是以前一級減傷一級要馬上進到病房裡面可以8小時裡面就進到病房至少都還有65%、55%而到今年剩下47%以前是做五忘六現在要保四不曉得能不能保得住四成而這個現象都是基層湧射的問題已經不是說這個輕症的病人太多啦其實它的原因很複雜"},{"start":12415.132,"end":12415.652,"text":"下一張來我們再看喔所以我們來講一下啦齁"},{"start":12443.755,"end":12444.657,"text":"你們在這種狀況裡面部分負擔漲了漲了漲了然後再下一張不是這一張"},{"start":12453.51,"end":12474.329,"text":"好,沒關係,我自己講結論好了啦在這種狀況裡面,調整部分募單的政策要以佳質量沒有發生那對分級醫療來講也沒有效,地區醫院、基層醫院看診的、就診的人數越來越少所以沒有發生啊,錢有啊,錢啊"},{"start":12476.37,"end":12488.837,"text":"錢增加了人民繳的錢增加了那盒包扁了民眾的盒包扁了但是門診的負擔每年平均增加了299元上一張但門診就醫的次數也這個創下了這個"},{"start":12495.76,"end":12495.78,"text":"致電話"},{"start":12526,"end":12528.401,"text":"報告委員醫療界如果對於要增加人民負擔我們真的也都不忍心"},{"start":12550.145,"end":12569.46,"text":"所以大家講說部分負擔叫做殭屍理論啦長部分負擔就被人家稱之為是殭屍理論第二個最後講一個對分級醫療也無效我們剛剛已經講了就是說基層這個在基層門診的就醫建樹占有率在今年"},{"start":12570.541,"end":12590.332,"text":"而下半年之後有增加但是實際上基層戰略比以前2019年以前2020年上半年都還來的低所以在這種狀況裡面你們忽視了疫情造成的就醫量下滑並用低標來當作年度的比較在這種狀況裡面我們來講健保署東拼西湊騙了"},{"start":12594.674,"end":12617.101,"text":"聽了這篇新聞稿,調整了參考的年度,然後講了最有利自己的擦紙抹粉的政策的有效性那其實就是要去突顯說你們是有效的假象這不是保險人應該有的這個應該有應有之局啊所以部長你剛才講說這個手段恐怕是有問題的"},{"start":12617.921,"end":12634.257,"text":"那如果有問題的話,你的檢討政策、你的手段跟結果之間的落差,那你要怎麼調整呢?報告委員,我不是說有問題,我是說在整體的各種策略裡面,它也是一個策略。我剛剛講已經告訴你沒有效啦。那我們都會檢討。我就跟你講,剛剛這些數據我們告訴你沒有效。"},{"start":12642.486,"end":12667.276,"text":"阿你只是讓人民的荷包變得更扁因為要改善醫療體系不是那麼一個簡單的對 非常複雜那你要拿出一個比較有效的手段而不是在那裡讓我們等了更久非常願意來拿出手段那這個要考慮阿你的手段是什麼考慮議制考慮政府對啦你的手段可能我們在這裡聽一下我們可能的手段會是什麼錢都讓你漲了除了漲錢以外"},{"start":12669.497,"end":12693.592,"text":"你還有什麼有效的手段我們第一個一定要維護那個病人的品質第二個也要有醫療人員醫療人員也要好的工作環境啊他不是醫療人員也需要薪水也需要好的一個環境第三個醫療院所你講的這個都是我們的理想你不用講這不是你的政策這個不是政策啦才會來一個一個來看怎麼去達到然後我們"},{"start":12698.595,"end":12703.499,"text":"我們部分負擔在急診從450讓你漲到750內,然後我們這個讓你漲到750,漲這麼多,啊你現在拿不出手段來,你就要趕快宣誓信再念一遍。"},{"start":12715.829,"end":12734.473,"text":"這不是在這裡虛偽行李如意的在那裡呼嚨立委嗎好啦我們陳學生立委一直在趕了啦你都書面交一篇書面報告啦還有還有那個有公安疑慮的那些醫院的資料一個月內提供好沒問題謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長接續我們請賴世保委員"},{"start":12753.203,"end":12769.278,"text":"謝謝主席 有請邱部長有關於今天的題目有看了一個資料請你看一下"},{"start":12777.882,"end":12788.553,"text":"105年到112年各年齡層自殺的死亡率針對女生你可以看到這裡面15歲到24歲15歲到24歲一路攀升了一路攀升了你看這個紅色這一塊一路攀升了"},{"start":12802.584,"end":12810.554,"text":"而且全國的自殺死亡的人數也是一路攀升了對這個土你有什麼看法沒有"},{"start":12811.957,"end":12836.235,"text":"我只是心理衛生室要我先跟委員報告齁我們真的很重視因為跟委員報告因為你也你也長久也一直關心醫療也很蠻了解我的啦齁因為我這十幾年來也參與自殺防治中心的工作齁那在我在台北市的醫師公會也非常推推這個部分所以有一陣子好好的推的確下來在"},{"start":12837.836,"end":12864.019,"text":"跑出了十大死因之一那後來當然是不是事實上的原因可能比較複雜最近什麼原因又上來你看這幾年特別是15歲到24歲的女生你看4.8一路每10萬人死4.8一路判到10.7你看到青少年的自殺真的非常讓我們都很痛心所以我想不管是教育部或者是衛福部我們會用專業的"},{"start":12866.68,"end":12881.285,"text":"來研究看看怎麼樣來研因那我們也增加SEL的教學就是讓他社會智商能夠學習從小就能夠學習面對挑戰的時候能夠調適"},{"start":12883.225,"end":12885.708,"text":"社區的心理衛生中心是不是一個重要的一個單位"},{"start":12908.234,"end":12924.771,"text":"社區的心理中心那也是另外一個體系那自殺防治中心他可能會比較著重在政策的一個 那個時候我們在上一屆通過了自殺防治法所以我們真的很努力在處理這個問題"},{"start":12927.293,"end":12948.506,"text":"其實這樣看齁這個現在大家爭取了長照機構療養機構都是電價凍漲但是這個單位沒有就是社區心理衛生中心沒有你們要不要這個部長這個沒有多少錢你要不要在這裡承諾這個社區心理衛生中心他的電價漲得未無不法的系統所以你承諾了你承諾你這個電價不要給他漲嗎就這個啊就這個意思啊"},{"start":12955.911,"end":12964.279,"text":"地方政府的嘛齁所以我們現在長照法裡面是不是有公益的啦齁公益性質的那個如果有"},{"start":12966.708,"end":12993.528,"text":"這個沒有動長是不是?動長啦!療養機構的動長不是嗎?跟委員報告還沒有?那根本應該要動長喔這個我們社區心理衛生中心依法是由地方政府來設置所以說他們通常都是會找一些公用的建物本身就是公用的建物來設置我講店家店家店家是是他們本身就是公家單位所以沒有所謂的說要要要去等於說漲價啊店家還是漲啊"},{"start":12996.264,"end":13015.502,"text":"這都是屬於政府的公交單位的機構建築物裡面去設立那這個部分好像應該就算政府請問你好請問你好你現在長照機構電架你有沒有吸收讓他動作有沒有只有公益性質的才有私立的不行"},{"start":13016.885,"end":13018.768,"text":"這個部長啊這個那個沒有多少天啊這個你們要cover啦"},{"start":13026.147,"end":13048.076,"text":"我這三個單位都應該cover不管是公立私立的當然私立一定要一定的規矩一定的標準超過那個標準都要給他要照顧啦這個東西對於精神的必成我們對於長道機構能夠照顧我們的老人齁真的我們真的很感佩啦齁因為他也是跟醫療機構一樣的辛苦齁所以這個部分我們"},{"start":13049.296,"end":13072.005,"text":"但是過去長照法問題是長照法現在是寫這樣子要公益性質所以我們是不是這個意思我們非常關心的公益性質不在公家機關阿民間不是公益阿基本上都是公益的阿盈利的就不在這裡面啦私人的盈利的那這個部分如果委員或者大家覺得說有這個部分也許是在服務我們"},{"start":13072.965,"end":13096.442,"text":"請你們請你們這三個啦一個療養機構、長照機構、心理衛生中心啦好不好這個你們有沒有算過這個定價多少啊這個漲價要漲多少啊有沒有算過有沒有算過對有沒有算過新聞中心是沒算過沒有算過新聞中心是沒算過長照可能要欸長照長照事務來吧"},{"start":13097.523,"end":13097.843,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長"},{"start":13130.99,"end":13150.042,"text":"委員好部長好,從早上到現在委員都非常的關心就是有關我們社區精神病患的照護優化的這個狀況那我們在這個這幾年當中我們也修了一個這個精神衛生法那強化了社會安全網"},{"start":13150.822,"end":13151.382,"text":"首先我們非常感謝我們"},{"start":13177.31,"end":13177.47,"text":"市長檢調報告"},{"start":13196.724,"end":13207.789,"text":"各位委員報告我們目前社區心理衛生中心全國設置合計是52點那我們的心衛中心會禁用各類的人力包含我們的心衛社工關懷訪視員還有這個心理師職能治療師跟護理師到目前為止52個點裡面我們禁用的專業人力大概1400多人"},{"start":13216.713,"end":13234.745,"text":"我們預計到明年年底,能夠增加到2400多人,所以大概還有1000人左右的差距。那據點呢?52個據點其實根本是不夠的。是,我們明年希望能夠增加到71點。是,那你們現在由各縣市這邊,還是由我們衛福部?"},{"start":13237.907,"end":13256.661,"text":"各縣市政府這邊自己提出來那我想請教就是說其實在地方的這個社區心理衛生中心有一些民眾他們也會擔心就是說這個心理衛生中心設置之後"},{"start":13257.822,"end":13268.369,"text":"有的人會擔心就是說這個地方是不是也會成為一個民眾住在附近居民的一個擔心的一個據點那你們現在目前有碰到這樣的一個狀況嗎"},{"start":13271.747,"end":13294.723,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們社區心衛中心其實他是我們服務的對象不是只有精神病人其實他是一般民眾也有服務所以說我們是我們跟地方政府這邊我們是把我們的社區心衛中心當作類似像我們心理的衛生所的概念就是希望說民眾他可以就是走進去不會有任何的心理上面的一個"},{"start":13295.043,"end":13295.383,"text":"新卫中心的部件,我們如果是以"},{"start":13310.913,"end":13340.913,"text":"﹗"},{"start":13341.013,"end":13366.681,"text":"所以剛剛有委員提到就是說我們這個青少年自殺或者是自殺率逐年在這個攀升當中或者是我們可能有一些這個像前陣子桃園的一個案例就是說這個在路上把一個女童這樣抓住的這種類似這樣的一個狀況也許她可能是一個這個精神疾病的患者或是其他的狀況那像這樣子的話"},{"start":13367.982,"end":13387.278,"text":"我們也希望就是說未來我們這個行為中心設置之後確實能夠發揮它的功效而不是就是說我們據點設了很多然後你原本你需要達到的它的預期的這個效果是沒有達到我覺得這樣是非常的可惜的所以我希望說能夠"},{"start":13388.619,"end":13410.014,"text":"一方面可能我們衛福部也要去討論一下為什麼這幾年的這個自殺率是這樣子逐年在攀升的那另外一方面可能我們每一次碰到事情之後可能這個在捷運上的殺人事件啊或者是在馬路上就可能被這個無緣無故就被殺或被刺啊類似這樣的一個狀況那怎麼樣做預防"},{"start":13412.776,"end":13430.171,"text":"或者是發生之後我們要怎麼去做心理的一個輔導我覺得這個可能也需要我們這個衛福部這邊跟所有的單位相關單位可能大家要做一個討論那另外接下來我再想請教一下就是說"},{"start":13431.573,"end":13455.115,"text":"前陣子那個桃園龜山那個強拉幼童的這個事件那我沒有聽到我也沒有看到就是衛福部針對這個事件後續我們要怎麼去做預防或者是你們有什麼樣的回應我是在網路上在媒體上我是完全沒有看到衛福部針對這件事情有做什麼樣的回應我是不是可以先請那個部長先做簡單的回答"},{"start":13456.311,"end":13477.906,"text":"因為第一個我們很小心在精神病的汙名化這件事情其實媒體有時候或警方所提出來的那個並不是實際上他的病況他應該不是屬於精神病他是和中度智能"},{"start":13479.838,"end":13493.863,"text":"所以我們也是擔心就會變成一個障礙的歧視所以我們就是很小心按照法律來處理當然我們一定是去請地方政府馬上啟動社工"},{"start":13498.808,"end":13510.105,"text":"實際上的動作去做那至於說因為他牽涉到一個媒體的話或公告的做什麼聲明的話我想這個部分我們是比較的確是比較謹慎的其實我"},{"start":13512.108,"end":13530.222,"text":"每次這個事件發生之後比如是在立法院或在媒體上面我們看到會有一些很多的一個檢討的聲音那有時候立法院會因為一件事情發生之後就覺得說哪一個法還不完備然後就是又要啟動修法當然我們會認為就是說可能預防會更重要那其實"},{"start":13536.687,"end":13558.475,"text":"法律的在完整在完備其實還是有它一些不足的地方或者是隨時要發生事情也是沒辦法去就是有時候是很難去預防那當然就是我們要怎麼從這個預防的角度或者是從這個家庭教育的這個角度然後去切入我覺得有時候我們看到這個發生事情"},{"start":13560.871,"end":13561.232,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13579.122,"end":13605.942,"text":"我更認為就是說也許在這個家庭教育或者是在這個教育上面可能也是要著重蠻多的所以我也希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分可能也還需要結合我們這個地方政府結合這個教育單位大家一起來努力什麼讓這個事情不要發生或者是萬一如果不幸發生之後那後續要怎麼去做檢討怎麼去做"},{"start":13606.963,"end":13607.263,"text":"是,了解。我們"},{"start":13635.117,"end":13648.896,"text":"本部將會同教育部從學校跟社會教育層面那個強化心理的健康提升民眾的心理韌性這個在健康台灣裡面也會列為一個很重要的SEL的一個"},{"start":13652.819,"end":13677.54,"text":"對,我們當然就是說看到這個事情發生之後可能這個加害人他可能可能就有也許就被判刑或被收押那判刑收押完之後呢這個是他如果又回到社區那怎麼樣去怎麼樣去做處置我覺得這個應該是後續後續應該是最重要的對,我們會把銜接的很好對,好好好謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":13681.772,"end":13708.292,"text":"謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長。接下來我們請陳雪生委員質詢。謝謝主席。是不是請部長。委員好。部長好。你是我的兄弟這首歌你會不會唱?你是我的兄弟啊?"},{"start":13709.909,"end":13727.605,"text":"我講這句話是希望部長把我們馬祖的每一個鄉親都當作你的親人我一向都是這種情懷因為早上我林柱芬委員質詢到急診室的狀況我也非常感慨"},{"start":13729.363,"end":13750.289,"text":"我弟弟的小孩肺發炎去臺大醫院暫留了多少天你知道嗎?7天7天才進入病房因為你當部長我不好意思再麻煩你所以我們也不想用特權那另外我就想請問部長797的斷層掃描你做過沒有?"},{"start":13755.89,"end":13777.886,"text":"640我為什麼跟你講790你知道嗎?你看馬祖是落後地區嗎?馬祖是不是落後地區?馬祖絕對不是落後地區我們做完150切的電腦斷層然後拿過來給醫生看模糊不清不清楚再做一次做多少?做640切"},{"start":13779.605,"end":13802.17,"text":"不是兩個加起來790切嗎?我們做X光照一次啊,就已經那個輻射就已經不得了了。你看做多好吃。所以部長,我想之前跟你討論過,640切的電腦端程給我們一步好不好?你看所有台灣的部立醫院有150切的嗎?"},{"start":13804.383,"end":13817.265,"text":"你家人去買東西都是買最好的電器用品嘛,怎麼會買最爛的呢?現在台灣醫學已經發達到這種地步了,是不是?所以我昨天詢問我們衛生局,他說委員會在討論"},{"start":13818.939,"end":13847.316,"text":"你告訴你的委員會還要討論什麼我不知道報告委員我們已經收到醫院嘛醫院這一邊的文那我們會用收到文沒有用啊你要答應我啊好不好醫化基金怎麼處理因為我們通常跟委員報告就是那個要動用到醫化基金的話我們有一個醫化基金審議委員會那我們目前已經那個在排那個委員的可出席時間已經在11月底您是市長是不是"},{"start":13850.417,"end":13875.805,"text":"我們去跟你什麼委員會去討論事情太遙遠了啦,你知道嗎?我也不曉得你們成員是誰?因為他必須要有一個預算的來源啊我的兄弟邱部長比較快啦,你知道嗎?預算來源,你全國的部立醫院有150間的嗎?你講給我聽為什麼我們要享受...我最近才去落成澎湖醫院的醫院他是..."},{"start":13877.799,"end":13880.706,"text":"一百二十八期我找楊耀委員來質詢你喔楊耀委員去那邊很高興"},{"start":13885.598,"end":13913.223,"text":"因為他配合AI,所以其實是非常的清楚,然後效果也非常好,是新的喔,他換掉也乃是60次切的嘛,所以因為他的價錢其實是我改天找癌藥委員質詢你,他一定會要個640切的,你放心沒問題沒問題,因為他去看了以後他覺得很滿意很滿意喔?你改天看病跑到馬祖來看,我保證你做790切我跟你講"},{"start":13915.219,"end":13922.754,"text":"那個馬祖現在的是幾千?一百五十千一百五十千快幾年了?已經十幾年了"},{"start":13927.411,"end":13928.072,"text":"你也答應我了"},{"start":13952.331,"end":13953.653,"text":"賴總統到金門去,他說我們對離島居民的醫療一定要提升"},{"start":13968.291,"end":13996.603,"text":"我們有緊急醫療後送金門現在有部立醫院對不對他緊急醫療後送的人員是我們的差不多10倍送的更多我們用直升機送他用運輸機送西凹山洞送整個裡面都是所以這個部立醫院有部立醫院水準嘛那我們連鄉縣黨部民進黨的連鄉縣黨部提出來說要部立醫院部長你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":13997.745,"end":13998.898,"text":"要不要給我們一個不立院?"},{"start":14000.936,"end":14027.064,"text":"布立醫院這個問題以前討論過啦後來從縣政府那邊也不放掉啊還是要縣立醫院啊誰不放掉?不會啊你如果給我布立醫院給我30億、50億多一個神經那顆、神經外科、心臟那顆、多一個醫生把金門醫院改製成布立醫院嗎?還是另外?另外早就布立啦澎湖也布立啊"},{"start":14032.265,"end":14054.829,"text":"你要改部例嗎?我跟你評估至少30億跑不掉你要蓋病床、病房、設備然後神經內科、神經外科、心臟內科、心臟外科這些統統都要配備當然我們人數很少一個月可能一兩個人這些醫生平常也可以給他一點福利去釣魚他可以去釣魚"},{"start":14056.553,"end":14076.843,"text":"是不是這樣?事實上就如此嘛我有到馬祖去行為醫療都順便打網球,我都怕馬祖的地方還可以打網球對啊,所以是不是達到成立,需要成立部立院是值得討論的?我想部長你重視這個問題,有機會部裡面去討論一下好不好?如果成立部立院我"},{"start":14079.572,"end":14094.918,"text":"我跟委員報告部立醫院所有的醫療人員都是我的好朋友所以我們都很清楚他們的努力有時候還要到其他的島去做很多的公共衛生各方面的醫療真的令人非常感併"},{"start":14097.492,"end":14110.939,"text":"你稍微提升一下醫療的等級好不好?這個我們一定遵守當時我們一起在討論的事那你今天長照師有沒有來我不知道長照師沒有?沒關係長照師我們要4900坪的土地要蓋4900坪然後你們答應給我們100床我們的造價跟台灣的建築費用"},{"start":14124.083,"end":14145.455,"text":"這個醫院算特殊建築嘛,對不對?我們一坪要27萬,台灣只要十幾萬,一坪27萬還沒有人要蓋喔?在台灣這邊還有黑道的回扣、白道的回扣,我們回扣都沒有,縣長要去跪求他們來蓋,沒有人要來蓋啊,缺工缺料。"},{"start":14149.033,"end":14173.398,"text":"這個延遲完成驗收的風險太大太大了所以他們商人要精打細算一瓶要27萬那你們現在說很像講說一瓶一瓶多少錢啊你們一瓶十幾萬給我們100間只給我們4億很像那100床100床的面積啊我們的需求是38瓶一個床要38瓶"},{"start":14174.977,"end":14201.235,"text":"你們常常提出來說一床27瓶,這個差距很大。我說你部長是不是請你特別重視一下,因為時間的關係。報告委員,我們一定把你的所有的需求,我們相關的團隊,再度來好好的針對你現在提出來的來好好的研究。我們的交情我不會擔心。"},{"start":14202.861,"end":14208.746,"text":"我是擔心什麼呢?你回去以後就把我忘了?永遠不會忘記你,在你的07當了8年,沒有聞到你的體會,聞到你的菸味沒有沒有,這裡不能講這個吧"},{"start":14221.181,"end":14249.937,"text":"我最近都在適當的場所對啦就是說我們接觸的非常頻繁啦所以感謝您對馬祖人民的我也感佩啦真的是對馬祖人民部長以前跟我在立法院是我們是鄰居啦我們感情非常好沒有因為黨派的問題嘛部長我也拜託好不好這個640間一定要幫我完成任務第一個第二個長照師的床位啊病床啊"},{"start":14251.124,"end":14260.749,"text":"部長,祝你身體健康、精神愉快,謝謝!好,謝謝委員!好,謝謝主席!好,謝謝!謝謝陳雪森委員!真的馬祖真的順序,我有去過好幾次,那邊真的是條件不好!部長,你給他答應就好,你是咧?"},{"start":14285.195,"end":14285.496,"text":"王毅民議員"},{"start":14302.552,"end":14322.033,"text":"蘇丹紅時安風暴再起,到目前為止有查清楚是什麼原因了嗎?我這邊有列出來,當時上半年的時候發生蘇丹紅事件,你們在3月13號的時候已經宣布邊境管制的措施而且要阻絕於境外。"},{"start":14322.794,"end":14347.012,"text":"之前你們也說這個後市場統統都清乾淨了統統都清完畢了沒想到現在蘇丹紅食安風暴又再起而且又是同一家公司寄生公司請問你們查到目前為止你們查到的真相到底是什麼為什麼現在咖哩粉裡面又有蘇丹紅又爆發出來了"},{"start":14349.427,"end":14372.577,"text":"我先解釋一下,這個我們當時就阻絕於境外對,逐批查驗,阻絕境外怎麼還會流進來據我了解是因為原來在阻絕之前的就流進來了的原料,是不是我們請副處長好來副處長委員好,跟委員報告,這一次"},{"start":14373.908,"end":14385.843,"text":"就是我們食藥署跟地方衛生局持續在後市場都沒有停的在查核那查核的結果這一次是寄生的特條咖哩粉"},{"start":14386.653,"end":14403.642,"text":"那他做的產品5000多盒現在回收了1700多盒那基本上原物料目前都在我們食藥署的國家實驗室做再次的確認那初步懷疑是他的其中一個原料"},{"start":14406.102,"end":14422.168,"text":"將黃粉遺失有這個遭受蘇丹色素的污染那目前如果確定以後那這個產品是從印度進來的我們會把印度整個國家輸入的咖哩粉目前印度的咖哩粉有色了但是將黃"},{"start":14423.348,"end":14423.628,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":14440.811,"end":14468.401,"text":"好那薑黃粉的話現在國內其實運用的蠻普遍的喔特別是在咖哩那咖哩的那個產品又非常的多你們現在發現的是從印度進來的這一批那請問我們薑黃粉有沒有從其他國家進口的只有印度嗎會不會又有漏網之魚因為之前你們查辣椒粉的時候逐批檢驗是對岸中國大陸那現在又出來薑黃粉"},{"start":14469.881,"end":14486.506,"text":"又有蘇丹紅是從印度但是只有印度這個國家嗎那你們現在採取的措施是要逐批檢驗嗎來自印度的那其他國家會不會有別的薑黃粉流入你們現在掌握到的從其他國家進來的薑黃粉還有哪些國家"},{"start":14488.407,"end":14488.907,"text":"所以表示有漏網之魚流入市場嗎?對不對?"},{"start":14514.082,"end":14522.855,"text":"到底我問你一個問題蘇丹紅他可以衍生的添加的到底有哪一些的調味粉之前說是辣椒粉現在連薑黃粉也可以到底還有什麼種類"},{"start":14526.821,"end":14555.454,"text":"跟我們報告目前國際警訊上面有的我們都已經設了包括辣椒粉、咖哩粉這些都有我們是把過去10年國際上曾經有檢出疑似有蘇丹色素違規的項目在邊境都設立查驗那當然一開始是百分之百那驗了大概半年多以後結果都沒有發現有的我們就會回歸到風險的管理那這一次"},{"start":14556.174,"end":14559.976,"text":"明天開始100%的抽驗那我問你現在已經在市場上面的你還有繼續去抽樣嗎我高度懷疑的是之前流進來的因為之前沒有100%嘛"},{"start":14586.01,"end":14601.326,"text":"會不會不只寄生這一家因為其實薑黃粉有非常多那如果別的陸續都有進口的你們要怎麼樣去清你們上次去清這個辣椒粉的時候是回溯就是每一批你們再去回溯那你們這一次薑黃粉你們的做法是什麼"},{"start":14602.077,"end":14617.333,"text":"各位報告只要確定是薑黃粉的話我們就會比照今年年初的做法會去全面清查只要是在後市場還在校期內的我們就會去清查會比照年初的做法你們多久會完成這項工作"},{"start":14619.035,"end":14637.867,"text":"跟我們報告其實蘇丹社是今年發生以來我們邊境是由食藥署負責後市場跟衛生局都沒有停都是持續在查持續在查對都沒有停所以才會發現有這一批但是但是代表說也沒有斷啊就是說你們的查算沒有停你們當時信誓旦旦是說"},{"start":14638.968,"end":14662.054,"text":"整個市場都很乾淨了然後外面也阻絕於境外結果就是破功現在看起來就不是這麼回事所以我要求這個食藥署在這件事情上面你們查緝的力道其實還是要很強的包括你們抽菸的比例其實還要增加因為這關乎食安要不然你們的保證大家就沒有信心了你們上半年信誓旦旦的保證現在又爆出而且這個數量還是蠻龐大的你說五千多件"},{"start":14667.376,"end":14692.616,"text":"現在只下架一千多件很多可能都已經是流入這個市場所以這個食安我希望這個部長來我要問部長部長你這個剛上任這個食安問題我希望你也要等同重視就是這一個事情我覺得它整個在市場是沒有真正的斷掉的所以你們應該那個敏感度要更高我們今年的主結是應該是完全主結那就是可能"},{"start":14695.478,"end":14696.439,"text":"接下來我問是今天的有關於我們這個精神"},{"start":14714.662,"end":14714.682,"text":"致詢問題"},{"start":14734.436,"end":14762.439,"text":"兩千七百一十八人服務率只有兩趴多那像嘉義縣這種資源比較高度匱乏的地方他連一家在地的協會都沒有還是靠嘉義市的那這樣子的一個情況底下你說你所有的服務要回歸社區然後要做得很好怎麼做你你基本的服務量能就完全不夠啊而且你還有這個縣市資源落差的問題像嘉義縣這樣的一個地方連協會都沒有啊"},{"start":14763.62,"end":14764.421,"text":"請問要怎麼提供服務"},{"start":14769.934,"end":14791.3,"text":"謝謝委員關切就是說我們社區的這個精神病人服務的資源相對不足這一帶那其實我們除了我們爭取經費來補助民間團體可以來增加精神病人社區支持資源之外其實我們也在關切能夠提供這樣的服務的團體並不多所以我們透過公財回饋金這邊我們有一個團體的一個賠利計畫我們希望能夠"},{"start":14794.901,"end":14811.593,"text":"有一些團體目前沒有在提供精神病人的社區支持服務我們希望能夠來培力他可以提供這種服務所以我們是同步在進行一方面那你們目前響應的有多少人你們有沒有針對資源匱乏就像我講的嘉義縣連一家都沒有啊有在你們重點的培養嗎"},{"start":14812.774,"end":14813.735,"text":"加一線就有超過萬名的精神病友"},{"start":14832.13,"end":14857.58,"text":"那這樣子極度匱乏的區域我要知道是說那你們的強化措施是什麼要不然這個其實縣市資源資源充足的比如說首都這麼多的團體這麼多的資源那他會得到很好的照顧那像嘉義縣資源這麼匱乏的地方那他就顯得他可能有需求但是沒有人可以來服務啊你們要怎麼去平衡那個城鄉的落差這個可能是重點嗎"},{"start":14858.28,"end":14882.172,"text":"是沒有錯齁其實我們做團體的一個賠利齁我們並不是說只有補助給團體請他們來做這件事情我們有一個專門的團隊去輔導我們的團體因為時間的關係喔部長我要求齁這個衛福部必須去盤點我今天已經具體指出來了像嘉義縣它就是嚴重資源匱乏的地方連一家的服務的協會都沒有你們要去盤點那你們如果說有輔導的計畫"},{"start":14887.395,"end":14911.177,"text":"我要求要看到你們輔導的成效而且你們服務的量能要有效的成長跟提供要不然我覺得對於在嘉義縣的這些精神病友其實是不公平的他們得不到你計畫寫得很好看但是他們得不到資源好不好那一個月之後可不可以把你們具體的想要改善的這個計畫給本席好不好怎麼樣去提升可以好謝謝"},{"start":14912.718,"end":14917.521,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。繼續我們請劉建國委員質詢。謝謝主席、也謝謝召委。今天排這個有關這個社區思覺治療症的病患。我們應該是用這樣的名稱比較正確。這個提醒一下主席。來,有請部長,謝謝。"},{"start":14943.226,"end":14971.385,"text":"委員好部長好部長辛苦了這個不到百惠待舉不過真的事情真的是很多今天今天找我又排這個思覺治療症的這個病患的照護優化這確實也非常重要一件事情我想到立院還是面對立院的時候要就是要要面對事實有些數據可能我們要小心也不要去美化部長可以看這個資料很清楚"},{"start":14972.305,"end":14994.123,"text":"就是說我們有強化這個社會安全網第二期計畫那分年來補助地方政府部建社區心理衛生中心及充實心衛中心能力至113年10月底就今年10月底全國社區心理衛生中心已累計52處那每一縣市均以至少設有1處那預計114年要將部建到71處"},{"start":14997.365,"end":14997.505,"text":"這個總共有6個類別的"},{"start":15027.208,"end":15032.436,"text":"這些專業人士齁那那那這個報告你把它從全部都混在一塊"},{"start":15033.24,"end":15056.257,"text":"我不曉得這是什麼意思然後我們也很難去精算到底是心理輔導員你要增進多少然後這個心理衛生的社工生你要增加多少我看不出來但是我如果說以明年來平均每一個職業別基本上就是會增加到414人嘛對不對他們要來照顧這個全國的心理衛生問題喔這樣夠不夠"},{"start":15059.534,"end":15081.745,"text":"每一個人的承擔負擔的這個以往的這樣的一個件數即便你增加到這樣的夠不夠因為你寫這樣我只有籠統的來跟你跟你跟你跟你請教嘛我不曉得真教室要負責多少啊護理師要負責多少然後心理護長負責多少對不對然後再給部長看第二個資料啦就一樣強化這第二期裡面"},{"start":15083.146,"end":15107.605,"text":"112年的這個衛福部直接補助地方政府禁用心理衛生社工含督導是291人那提供精神疾病與自殺防治合併多重議題各案的服務人次已經來到了21萬6349人次簡單講也就是平均一個社工一個社工要處理743人次這個承受得起來嗎?"},{"start":15112.712,"end":15113.136,"text":"這承受值起來嗎?"},{"start":15115.401,"end":15144.443,"text":"那個委員 白委員是不是我們請針對這個問題跟你報告一下謝謝委員關切我們新衛社工的工作負擔那我的確沒有錯委員這邊提呃這個呈現出來是我們新衛社工的人數是291人是在112年的時候那這個服務呢是指我去仿試的次數不是仿試的人數仿試的次數對因為每一個人可能會仿好幾次所以他不是人數是次數"},{"start":15147.43,"end":15152.281,"text":"所以因為這樣區分起來壓力就不一樣了壓力就落差很大"},{"start":15153.348,"end":15169.241,"text":"是這樣嗎?你要打呼我是這樣嗎?你現在是要緩博我嗎?是不是?不是。不然你這個想法就我聽起來就有點怪怪的啊。這邊是。對。他的人次就是2169216嘛對不對?21萬多嘛對不對?216349你講沒關係你再講一次。這個是服務量。我們提供了這麼多訪視的次數。那就更糟糕了。你這些人要做這麼多的事情。"},{"start":15179.623,"end":15199.029,"text":"跟委員報告,如果是以這個個案的負擔的那個案量比來講的話,我們一個新衛社工在去年平均下來大概是1比28也就是說我一個新衛社工我大概服務28個這個合併有保護案件的這個精神病人所以你現在答問我是說1比28是合理的一個比例"},{"start":15202.967,"end":15212.023,"text":"這個離我們的目標還是要再加油因為我們希望說我們希望能夠把這個比例降到1比25左右1比25喔對你這麼講好像"},{"start":15215.885,"end":15236.515,"text":"好像不是這麼嚴重的感覺齁一比二是巴士現狀那你們要加油到可以調可以來調到一比二十五所以應該這些心理社公司基本上壓力都沒有這麼大是這樣嗎這個都有現場轉播的你小心打呼其實不是這個意思齁因為我們是希望說你打呼我就是這個意思啊"},{"start":15236.795,"end":15262.431,"text":"每一個社工的這個要有一個合理的這個負擔的案量那目前我們是把我們的目標是設在明年要達成的目標你先講合理的負擔的比例是多少你要達成的目標明年要達成目標1比25這是另外一件事情正常的情況之下參照先進的國家這個心理事公司應該要比例是多少1比多少是正常的"},{"start":15263.856,"end":15280.554,"text":"我們有參考國外的資料一比二十的是比較常見所以我們現在就是說當然我們目前國內的人力還是相對不足但是也沒有辦法一步到位所以我們是逐年的來禁用我們新衛社工的人力"},{"start":15282.356,"end":15296.023,"text":"對,所以1比28到1比20你明年要到1比25對不對那你什麼時候可以到1比20才是一個參考國外的這樣的一個經驗是比較合理的"},{"start":15296.969,"end":15297.57,"text":"這個期整到什麼時候?"},{"start":15328.009,"end":15330.33,"text":"社安網二期計畫是到明年底結束所以新的一期會在1、15年開始"},{"start":15350.283,"end":15373.444,"text":"所以我們1月5年就可以達到1比20,是不是這樣?明年是1比25嗎?希望,希望我們會努力,因為這個人員的禁用可是你是行政機關,你不能跟我講做希望,你跟我講希望我就覺得沒有希望了我們要禁用的人數,然後地方政府馬上就可以禁用到,他們還是有實務的禁用的一個期程,所以不可能說我們一下子補"},{"start":15376.086,"end":15403.004,"text":"我讓部長知道有這個事情啦好不好我覺得我們一定努力因為部長你現在是社公司的社公司的大家長你現在身份嘛對不對跟以前不一樣我要講你們講說有機會才有機會這個寫的這個報導出來的嘛有機會好好去處理每一個個案的狀況是要降到1比20嘛那等於緩資嘛對不對現在跟明年"},{"start":15404.269,"end":15407.914,"text":"甚至於未來的後年115年都沒有機會好好去處理每一個個案我這樣講你應該沒有辦法反駁我吧"},{"start":15416.937,"end":15417.077,"text":"我想那個"},{"start":15440.618,"end":15465.779,"text":"一下子剛剛市長這邊報告一下子要達到這個目標恐怕的確困難那的確這是事實好好如果要降到1.2才能好好去處理這是每一個個案這也是我們工作同仁的因為我們強化這個社會安全網明年明年是到第二期有各種管道來幫助這些個案讓我們的某一個譬如說心理社會這一個"},{"start":15467.06,"end":15494.269,"text":"負擔不要那麼重,多元化大家互相來支持。現在都是講這個團隊作戰的啦。沒有啦,柏中,我時間在管的啦。我跟他說,因為我講好好的處理每一個個案,我現在講兩件好好的沒有辦法處理每一個個案。第一個就突然發生這個事件嘛,就從事身上者在這邊的社工直接詢問受害者家屬要不要去和解啦。其實做法上是非常粗糙嘛,引起社會嘩然,但是我不忍苛責。"},{"start":15496.14,"end":15520.325,"text":"第二個改改案也是這樣這個社工被起訴過失致死業務登載不實其中這個過失致死的理由部長應該還有記憶猶新吧這個社工是有親自到現場去訪視但未能及時發掘到這一個保姆所羅織的謊言不只如此也未能辨識這個傷勢系受虐所致進而去做額內通報"},{"start":15521.718,"end":15531.182,"text":"那這個社工未能因應或用即時來因應受傷狀況增加訪視頻率或進行不定期的訪視以發掘這個虐待情勢故認為這個社工社工社患過失致死罪這個是多麼沉重的指控我不曉得你現在是社工社大家長你的感受是什麼你看喔"},{"start":15549.222,"end":15575.322,"text":"當這個社工被靠上所靠的那一剎那我相信衛生部很多同仁應該心有戚戚焉吧怎麼會這樣我再講一個數據 2020年有兩成的社工在執行業務時遭受人身的危害每五名就有一個社工遭受安全危害每三天就有一位社工受到這個威脅"},{"start":15577,"end":15601.198,"text":"這個時候這個數據都沒有應該不誇張嘛對不對反正就是社區精神病患照護優化這缺點是長期以來這個問題那我們當然希望換了新的部長就有不一樣針對這個部分有更積極的應用作為嘛但是這樣的數據你必須要去盤整起來部長非常的清楚去掌握嘛然後北市喔臺北市社會局統計去年113年社工總人數是563人但是就有94人離職"},{"start":15605.277,"end":15613.644,"text":"離職率有20%,19.3%左右然後這是太多了,替問我的地方就對了連新北市都有36個人離職"},{"start":15615.976,"end":15644.551,"text":"持續這樣下去,我們不只有人才斷層,也有經驗的斷層,這會接不上來,這會出大問題。所以你們要降到1比5,你還是有辦法招到那些人,也有辦法要做下去,不然你的1比25,我怕都很難達成,不要講到1比20。我今天要推詢你們的意思,因為時間有限,但是大致上就講了幾個重點,也給部長能夠理解。"},{"start":15645.511,"end":15667.172,"text":"我這邊最後一個具體的建議其實我們在這個有對這個連江縣社會工作人力培訓期獎勵計畫是109年到115年這個離老人力當然離老的社工人力當然會比本島更難培養但是如果透過公費的方式為離老來培養這個社工人力我覺得"},{"start":15668.086,"end":15688.021,"text":"我覺得有某種程度的效益存在那今年首屆的國衛生有3人在6月畢業之後7月會返鄉來到這個連江縣託入服務這個計畫已經執行4年了啦要不要去擴大嘛該不該擴大有沒有原理擴大你的2.0裡面有沒有含帶這一項"},{"start":15690.509,"end":15709.742,"text":"我想這個是有意義的一個工作,那就是看需求,需求面方面我們來規劃,不曉得這公司有沒有規劃?是,跟委員報告,就是這一次今年我到連江去看這些學生跟縣府交換意見,那他們縣府也提出就是說"},{"start":15710.402,"end":15730.846,"text":"在這一期結束後他們會再評估提出第二期再繼續讓中央來支持所以因此我們在等他的報告來之後我們會再報給行政委員來做這個就是林江縣他提出了嘛全國要不要一體適用嘛你的能力才有辦法短期內去補足嘛你的1比25才有辦法達標嘛為了1比20才有機會有辦法去實現嘛就這樣而已嘛"},{"start":15735.339,"end":15750.677,"text":"一個月給我們報告跟政府溝通一下好不好?部長可以嗎?好,謝謝!謝謝!謝謝!謝謝劉委員!不過我的社工師我建議你們在聚會的時候還是說在做年度的時候請外商科的醫師來幫你們"},{"start":15752.279,"end":15753.761,"text":"接續我們請劉許廷委員"},{"start":15777.968,"end":15781.954,"text":"謝謝主席部長跟這個社會救助跟社工吧市長有請"},{"start":15786.86,"end":15806.58,"text":"委員好,這部長無安喔,這無安,大家今天都談龜山這件事,又發生在本席選區喔,是,這非常煎熬啊,是,就剛剛劉建國委員講得很清楚吧,就說像這樣子案例非常特殊啊,如果說大家要這個加強列管等等,它其實某一些層面來講可能會造成社工更進一步的負擔,但這事就發生了嘛。"},{"start":15807.04,"end":15830.314,"text":"那這次發生的時候選區是極度恐慌的狀態自然的狀態我是很為難啦我當然不希望不管是智能障礙也好或者是精神障礙被汙名化可是這社區的恐慌它確實造成然後當大家都講說要把它關起來或什麼的時候其實本期非常為難所以我們今天一定要花一點時間討論這件事情啦剛剛本期有講非常清楚這一案的狀況非常特殊就是說它並不一開始並不是所謂屬於的精神障礙對不對"},{"start":15831.596,"end":15840.088,"text":"他只是中度智能障礙而已對不對好那我想請問以現行的制度啦這個相關的官員可以做補充不屬於精神障礙的情況之下有沒有開案列管制度上規定要不要開案列管"},{"start":15847.668,"end":15875.539,"text":"報告委員我們這個全國的精神病人這邊來收案做關懷訪視不是因為他有沒有零有手冊而是說針對病情比較嚴重的一些對我現在講這個案例他之所以特別就是因為他一開始不是所謂的精神疾病的狀況他是智能障礙情況那智能障礙有沒有列管在我們這個精神衛生這邊是沒有是沒有列管對不對那那個社政方面的有沒有列管現在的制度是什麼"},{"start":15877.128,"end":15880.403,"text":"好 身上 我剛剛不太確定 沒關係上來說明一下就好請"},{"start":15881.938,"end":15908.221,"text":"根為報告,他這個如果說經過身心障礙鑑定的話,他如果符合資格,他是可以在用身心障礙的部分,他是拿進來列管的?當然是有列管所謂的身心障礙的這個名額嘛,但我的意思是說列管之後他的管理是什麼?比如說我只是提供一項生活輔助或什麼之類的,或者說他可以請領相關補助,這是大家普遍的了解嘛,可是針對特殊個案的這些行為或什麼,他現在有特別的規矩嗎?或者是有特別的規制嗎?"},{"start":15910.234,"end":15935.538,"text":"生意障礙的部分的話他是用各管的方式也就是說他可以想做相關的福利服務跟現在都還是從福利的角度出發所以現在問題就在這個地方就是說他沒有在沒有特殊行為之前他當然就不屬於要特定的開案列管就規範行為的一個模式嘛對不對那不列管的情況之下所以其實就等於是在行為方面是沒有列管那不列管的情況之下我們是不是只能期待就是說當事人的家庭給予合適的照顧跟支持"},{"start":15936.564,"end":15960.769,"text":"對不對現行的狀況是不是就是這樣好那這個案子因為他已經變成全國矚目他上了全國新聞剛剛還有影片放出來真的是慘不忍睹對不對那我想了解一下你們現在中央各部會有沒有去了解這個個案的狀況請問這個個案的狀況是他的家庭照護是屬於百密一疏平常很好但是發生這樣的事情還是說平常就疏於照顧等於家庭在支持系統方面是不合格的請問是屬於哪一種你們有了解嗎"},{"start":15962.825,"end":15977.851,"text":"委員其實分析得很好,那不曉得我們在這個部分有沒有去聊?沒有,現在看起來暫時回答不出來,好沒關係,請你用最快的速度,你也跟桃園社會局聯繫一下好不好?是,被害人部分我們有掌握,行為人部分"},{"start":15978.951,"end":15999.364,"text":"現在大家都做把被害人做心理輔導這是本來就應該做的事情嘛然後你盡量去撫平他的傷痛這本身就沒有問題了但現在問題就是這樣就是說現在這個加害者這個個案是他家庭是屬於長期失能的狀況還是他其實是正常但就是漏了那個第一個這個事情要先做先做釐清第二個我要講的也結合剛剛很多委員在問的就是說如果因為發生一次這樣的事情"},{"start":15999.784,"end":16016.409,"text":"然後我們就說好全面列管然後又增加社工的工作負擔恐怕不見得從政策的方面能夠有效執行但是但是是不是針對類似的狀況可以做一個檢討那讓先至少讓政府去了解他的家庭狀況我用家庭狀況來區分嘛"},{"start":16017.529,"end":16046.418,"text":"如果這個人是有身心障礙的不管是智能也好精神也好然後他的家庭是足以支持的那我們應該想辦法鼓勵或加強家庭管理的力道這樣去減低你們社政的負擔如果你經過了盤查跟調查之後發現很多個案的家庭狀況是不OK的他很有可能就是特別的他可能就是隱形的炸彈我現在這樣講有一點點有一點點無名化的意思但事實發生在這個地方所以我至少希望要求中央政府部委針對這個案子去做一個盤查身心障礙者可能行為"},{"start":16047.498,"end":16063.745,"text":"你不能等事情發生之後再列管我是覺得就來不及了事前先了解他們的家庭支持狀況你這樣才有辦法大家可以有效的去跟社會做溝通比如守望相助或什麼也透過把家庭的環節拉進來你才能減低你社工跟相關行政人員的負擔嘛"},{"start":16064.085,"end":16081.989,"text":"我想這個才是解決這個個案長遠之道那我不希望說今天質詢的時候只是說我對個案還不是很瞭解既然都上了新聞是矚目公開今天都還排了專案報告那就要對個案要有深刻的瞭解啦好不好這是後續處理就針對加害人的這一部分後續的處理希望競速啊跟本席答覆可以嗎"},{"start":16083.573,"end":16100.76,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這個部分我們希望一個事件就能夠做系統性的一個系統性的就是把家庭拉進來用家庭為單位來做能夠因為這樣改善好不好本期的建議是這樣希望衛福部可以來執行好不好我們會把這個部分的一個報告再給委員好謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長那接續我們請楊耀委員質詢"},{"start":16114.568,"end":16115.897,"text":"主席請一下邱部長"},{"start":16123.811,"end":16141.916,"text":"市委組織有提出精神疾病應該要朝向社區化的照護發展為目標當然這個其中裡面有很多的問題必須要去克服我先問一下就是說根據統計"},{"start":16145.278,"end":16172.737,"text":"112年領有慢性精神病身障手冊的大概有超過13萬但是這一些人使用我們社區式服務的人數其實大概只有5000人大概不到一成請問一下部長就是使用者不高的主因是什麼"},{"start":16174.497,"end":16199.422,"text":"好,謝謝委員這隨行因為把精神病患引導向測序化的照護這個是一個很好的目標當然我剛才也說了會引申很多的問題那不過我們還是要既然這是目標還是要有越多人使用越好那"},{"start":16202.401,"end":16205.989,"text":"使用這個社區式服務的人數不高的主因是什麼?"},{"start":16214.722,"end":16235.687,"text":"報告委員不管是心理健康室或是社家屬其實我們對於這個精神病人的社區支持資源的部件我們都非常的努力那委員剛剛有提到就是說目前看起來使用這個服務的人數並不多比例太低了那我想應該是有兩個因素第一個因素就是說我們目前資源還在佈建的路上"},{"start":16236.187,"end":16236.227,"text":"主席"},{"start":16253.097,"end":16271.903,"text":"﹗"},{"start":16273.465,"end":16293.404,"text":"來連結個案跟我們這個服務方案之間希望能夠鼓勵他們出來參加我們的方案所以你剛剛講的就是你們接下來要怎麼增進然後落實這個政策的方法對不對好那這就有一個問題"},{"start":16297.998,"end":16321.919,"text":"你們在辦理精神病人社會關懷照護計畫的時候呢他大概是由公衛護理師然後社區的關懷員來做以面試的方式做的建構出來的通報系統對不對那社區訪視員"},{"start":16324.847,"end":16340.066,"text":"的人力的人力我這邊有的資料是全國社區訪視員的人力包括督導我連督導都算進去大概就只有600人這個人力夠嗎"},{"start":16344.14,"end":16366.67,"text":"五百九十二人五百九十二人對這個人力夠嗎?不夠不夠的這個就一直問題就一直停在這裡就是我們長期以來明明就是社政這一方面的人力從照護員、訪視員、社工的人力都很不足"},{"start":16372.118,"end":16389.677,"text":"我發現我在這邊質詢這個好像就是一直質詢一個無解的問題啊你知道我國社區訪視員負擔個案的案件量跟日本相比日本是1比10"},{"start":16391.789,"end":16400.996,"text":"我們目前社區訪視員一個人平均負責訪視的案量大概就有50人是日本的10倍沒有要讓你們說啊這個怎麼解決啊我覺得不應該只是一直在委員會說要增加人力啦增加人力必須要拿出具體的辦法出來而且必須要提高誘因啦"},{"start":16422.628,"end":16437.759,"text":"是,這也是跟護理師、網絡護理師一樣,要從多元化來解決今天早上我們已經討論那麼久,如果我只是回答說我們在努力,我想也不具體啦就是我會認為從剛剛那個連江縣體那個特別的訓練那個特別的計畫這個也是一個"},{"start":16448.317,"end":16474.19,"text":"一個制度那怎麼樣留這個我就提一下就是說你整體的社會你薪資待遇跟社會地位不強化公費生也沒有用因為我們澎湖就離島也有護理系的保送生都沒有人報考"},{"start":16479.059,"end":16488.6,"text":"你整體的還是必須要從整體的結構上來做使力才有效果啦是是是"},{"start":16489.648,"end":16505.031,"text":"所以怎麼樣讓在提他的工作環境好 其實社工是我們在醫療團隊裡面一直都是非常重要的 像你在醫院也一樣啦 從社工到照服員都一樣啦 而且到社區以後更需要很龐大的這些人力 那怎麼樣讓這些人力他們因為"},{"start":16519.815,"end":16544.567,"text":"就是因為他們做這個專業也是很有專業的使命感尊榮感對嘛所以才說國家有多餘稅收的時候不能發現金嘛應該要用來提高某一些人的薪資待遇或者是用來補勞健保嘛這個就是我一直的主張嘛"},{"start":16545.762,"end":16555.117,"text":"我最後花一點時間跟部長討論一下部長我大概從我在這個委員會第4屆了"},{"start":16557.264,"end":16583.669,"text":"我大概討論醫學中心因為像剛剛陳雪生委員在這邊講的臺灣的醫療資源分佈太不平均了所以我就是知道醫學中心每增加一家就會把點值稀釋掉一部分所以大概在這邊一直要求"},{"start":16586.022,"end":16610.99,"text":"醫學中心就是必須要定額只有你們一次評鑑增加了三家把整個除了民眾看病的致富額以外典值整個也吸資那執政黨呢用評鑑送醫院大禮"},{"start":16612.639,"end":16626.773,"text":"那在野黨就要保障點子多少錢?阿你如果繼續撐高我就支持點子保障阿,要報就大家報到阿,不只我講阿,我現在講的是監察院對你們的糾正阿"},{"start":16635.253,"end":16659.659,"text":"沒有那種沒有那種既定的應該要有既定的政策就是我就常講我來自離島很深刻的的了解資源的分布有多不平均啊你們現在都會區全國還有14個縣市沒有沒有醫學中心啊不是只有南北差距而已啊"},{"start":16662.827,"end":16679.945,"text":"你們真的不要再用憑鑒來送大禮用憑鑒來送醫院大禮我就支持點子保障一口不夠保障1.2部長你有要講一下嗎?還是要聽我講?"},{"start":16687.933,"end":16688.613,"text":"是,這個真的是那個分級醫療"},{"start":16708.018,"end":16708.198,"text":"對阿對阿"},{"start":16737.811,"end":16753.235,"text":"但是你現在就是特管期,你也很了解特管期一定要藝術中心嘛我現在不是說應該要特管期,我說你們應該要就是定額20家的話,就是要有升有降,大家有競爭才有壓力嘛你現在不在講,就一直在講我現在主張有升有降啊,這也是醫學中心必須要納入評鑑的理由嘛"},{"start":16766.325,"end":16770.33,"text":"阿假如都不用這樣我就主張不用評鑑阿讓他們浪費那麼多時間幹嘛"},{"start":16772.352,"end":16775.014,"text":"正正前委員正正前委員正正前委員不在繼續我們請陳穎委員質詢"},{"start":16807.812,"end":16808.713,"text":"主席 麻煩請部長委員好"},{"start":16815.826,"end":16841.558,"text":"部長好,因為不小心瞄到了一個新聞所以來關心一下這件事情那這個桃園青埔這一帶就是交通也非常便利那目前也是整個桃園發展的主要的一個重點所以未來的這個人口移入就是非常多也會越來越多那醫療需求也是隨之增加"},{"start":16842.358,"end":16865.444,"text":"那當然在鄭文燦擔任市長的時期在2019年的時候他還蠻有遠見的就跟了這個市政府就跟這個清華大學簽訂了合作意向書那由市政府無償提供7.2公頃的土地那由這個高雄醫學大學負責興建醫院還有營運"},{"start":16868.005,"end":16882.538,"text":"這個不只是可以解決未來桃園青埔醫療需求問題還有醫學教育研發的功能而且清華大學跟高一大也在去年簽約了"},{"start":16885.28,"end":16903.513,"text":"他們就簽約了那我想整件事情的規劃其實這是一個非常非常棒也是桃園市民非常引頸期盼的事情那我不曉得就是說但是就是說這件事情這個好事情呢現在卻傳出聲變了"},{"start":16905.034,"end":16926.988,"text":"那高一呢,高一大他突然在9月的時候就跟清大解約那上個禮拜五呢桃園市長張善政也落下重話說如果清大仍然沒有找到一起合作興建醫院的對象那桃園市會把土地收回那我不曉得部長有沒有掌握這個狀況還是有誰"},{"start":16931.65,"end":16955.982,"text":"不太清楚這樣一個變化那你們那個誰可以來回答一下根文報告齁據我們了解是目前清大跟高一之間還有一些合約上的問題等一下不好意思你講得很高麥克風那個不好意思就是那個因為我們目前了解的是那個清大跟高一之間有一些合約的關係還沒有釐清所以他們目前有這些問題存在我想是這樣子齁"},{"start":16959.266,"end":16975.217,"text":"接著今天質詢那也麻煩部長要關心一下這個狀況我們來看一下這個臺北市跟桃園市的人口臺北市的人口已經將近250萬了桃園市的人口也是230幾萬其實"},{"start":16979.36,"end":17006.507,"text":"這個兩個直轄市人口是差不多了但是呢這個醫學中心的這個以台北市來講有時間例如像台大榮總三總馬街等等那桃園呢目前我們看他就是除了這個準部立醫院的這個部立醫院的準醫學中心那再外加一個"},{"start":17007.387,"end":17023.665,"text":"名稱叫林口長庚的但是位在龜山那我是不曉得說這個命名是很奇怪所以這個林口長庚他到底是要算在哪裡他的位置就是龜他的地址就是龜山鄉"},{"start":17025.236,"end":17028.279,"text":"那我再請教就是說那南桃園還有靠海線的部分有沒有教學醫院"},{"start":17054.409,"end":17055.61,"text":"藍濤教學醫院藍濤"},{"start":17078.767,"end":17101.868,"text":"當然沒有,因為以桃園來講就是只有林口長庚醫院是醫學公司嘛好,那現在齁,就是說你們剛剛講說打退堂鼓只是單純的合約不清嗎?還有其他原因嗎?我們中央沒有問題啦"},{"start":17104.54,"end":17128.297,"text":"不是等一下我是請教他們就是高益達退堂鼓只是說什麼到底是什麼原因因為你講說合約不清我想知道什麼原因啊比較具體的那個醫師師幫忙一下不是因為部長他不是很清楚你就直接回答就好了好不好醫師師這邊也因為沒有兩兆還沒有找到我們醫師師這邊來"},{"start":17130.903,"end":17149.282,"text":"你就這樣講就好啦,這樣我們才知道說這個問題我們接下來應該下個步驟是什麼?有時候外面傳出來的不一定是實際上的狀況,但是至少我們醫事室還沒有處理對,所以醫事室剛剛回答是外面傳出來的消息"},{"start":17150.342,"end":17151.423,"text":"其實這個合作原本是個好事啦"},{"start":17168.125,"end":17180.985,"text":"我們暫且不論說你們核定了多少不管是這個醫學中心到底這個點子問題我在這裡我先不討論但是就整個桃園來講他那個分布我這樣攤開來其實是"},{"start":17183.488,"end":17208.555,"text":"就是這個需求供需上是失衡的那我現在就是說這個桃園市政府我想那個張市長他剛剛說落下狠話然後提了他們提出兩個方案那第一個他有提到就是說要把這個清大來跟這個市府合作一起蓋市立醫院"},{"start":17210.532,"end":17228.1,"text":"但這個等級當然是醫學中心的一個市立醫院那我是想請教說第一個這樣子因為這個副市長有做這樣子的公開發表那他們這樣子的這個要求可不可行因為"},{"start":17228.88,"end":17239.787,"text":"整體的這個醫療人力他要從哪裡來他們有沒有能力是否有沒有能力處理這個事情醫學院醫師護理師好這個都是個問題不是嗎"},{"start":17243.461,"end":17265.334,"text":"當然是這樣,最重要是要評估,真的要去評估當地的醫療資源不是說,因為要看他是不是區域醫院,有區域醫院,有地區醫院那個部長是這樣子,就是說其實我有很多選民在,他們在大溪嘛,也很南邊的那常常就是說,當然這個區域、地區醫院"},{"start":17267.615,"end":17288.969,"text":"那為什麼又這個醫學中心那主要是那個就是說大醫院那個急重症難症就是可以這個在區醫院就可以完成全部都可以完成你看我們所有的部立醫院都是區醫院或者是地區醫院那你們都不用再繼續核定了當時就都可以監護起急重症如果說"},{"start":17298.115,"end":17323.74,"text":"部長我剛剛第一個問題就是說他們這樣子我們有很多的擔憂啦他市府有沒有能力去統籌整理這些看起來其實是有點天方夜譚然後第二個就是說清華大學第二個市府提的方案就是說要清華大學要另外找尋這個合作的對象"},{"start":17324.56,"end":17336.837,"text":"那清華大學他們在前天有表示就是說他們將將會就是說採取這個BOT的方式招標然後在桃園清普新建醫院的這件事情"},{"start":17340.322,"end":17354.952,"text":"就是我想是說那衛福部這裡既然本席在這裡提出來了那是不是可以請你們可以主動去多加關心看看有沒有什麼可以協助的地方"},{"start":17355.728,"end":17374.814,"text":"好,我們一定去關心,因為所有的地區的醫療資源,如果均衡,如果對民眾是適當的,如果協助來增加醫療資源,都是我們應該要去關心的。所以既然委員有提出這個問題,我們會請醫師師馬上去了解,那了解了以後的狀況再隨時跟委員報告。"},{"start":17377.64,"end":17399.712,"text":"對嘛那如果說按照部長的講法那根本也都完全不需要啊那到時候又會產生很多問題那這個到底需不需要這不是我質詢的重點啦只是因為需要不是你說那個區域醫院地區醫院全部都可以處理了嗎所以他們的訴求現在是醫學中心"},{"start":17402.795,"end":17405.217,"text":"因為你醫學中心在那裡那裡也要競爭你要競爭部桃以那個區域這次部桃就輸給臺大新竹訓練其實因為是還有他們還"},{"start":17418.146,"end":17435.467,"text":"這個整個園區它是還有這個醫學教育研發的功能所以部長你先瞭解它那個整個區的規劃之後你們再好好的去評估因為我想有需求大家才敢去推這個這麼大的一個計畫嘛是但我覺得是好事情"},{"start":17437.629,"end":17452.001,"text":"也要請你們同步關心一下那個人口的移動因為那個區域最近真的超級無敵大爆滿的瞭解瞭解瞭解我們一定要給他們最好的一個醫療照顧好謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長繼續我們請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":17471.496,"end":17486.224,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長委員好部長好我們整個護理同仁很辛苦勞動條件很差所以流失率很高我相信這個"},{"start":17487.56,"end":17515.158,"text":"已經是共識了啦也是客觀的事實我們都不用再正文我們就從這個基礎往上談我們現在已經實施了一些措施未來說要實施的一些措施我們怎麼樣有效的保障護人員他們的權益來我先請給部長看在今年1月的時候我們的衛福部有公告為了要留任護理人員所以有啟動夜班護理人員的獎勵"},{"start":17517.121,"end":17540.728,"text":"這個部長應該很熟啦然後呢公告的時候當初是這個是我們的衛福部護理及健康照護師對外公告的內容上面我特別框起來包括了專科護理師包括專科護理師但我最近接到很多專科護理師的陳情"},{"start":17543.244,"end":17566.158,"text":"說當初公告他們明明在裡面當初公告他們明明在裡面結果拖到什麼時候拖到今年8月才開始納入啊獎勵方案那專科護理師他們心裡啊都不平我相信部長應該可以感同身受啦當初公告有我們啊一直拖拖到8月才給錢大家的心裡是說啊我是比較小害羞"},{"start":17567.552,"end":17583.929,"text":"我前幾個月做的是白做嗎一般的護理師可以拿到我專科護理師拿不到重點是衛福部一開始公告的專案就包括專科護理師啊為什麼到8月才發之前該給人家沒有給的部長應不應該補回去"},{"start":17586.121,"end":17605.271,"text":"報告委員我們這個來瞭解如果當時是有有啦有啦部長我跟你講我執行絕對不會做偽造變造的圖卡瞭解瞭解請你放心我不是側翼網軍我絕對不會做偽造變造的圖卡那就是你們衛福部公告的內容甚至來我再給部長看一下是"},{"start":17605.791,"end":17619.026,"text":"公文113年度全民健康保險強化住院護理照護量能方案這個是衛福部發的公文嘛全民健保會啦來你看一下實施日期113年1月1號到113年12月31號嘛"},{"start":17622.677,"end":17649.465,"text":"左手邊的公文衛福部的函專科護理師也放在裡面不過就是他有講一個輪值夜班的啦是啦當然是一樣的條件嘛阿現在人就是沒拿到錢嘛所以人夜班的專科醫師沒有拿到錢沒有啊那這個當然就你要補嘛今天承諾囉不要跟我講我回去研究了一下說沒有錢發不出來"},{"start":17656.806,"end":17659.087,"text":"我今天只要一個承諾該給人家的給人家有沒有問題"},{"start":17680.333,"end":17704.187,"text":"當然該給人家 這個當然要這樣做我接下來就看 部長你回去了解完了以後這件事情要怎麼處理可不可以一個禮拜之內 給我書面回覆我覺得公平性是很重要的對啦 因為這些專科護理師加起來有一萬多個人嘛大家心裡都不平啦 想說我們是比較小人還是我晚上都沒有在做 我做了別人就領 我沒有 現在是什麼狀況"},{"start":17705.97,"end":17719.715,"text":"部長我這樣講你聽得懂啦齁完全聽得懂好第二個齁就是說現在齁護理界在反映的齁就是說三班護病比阿專科護理師的護病比要不要有一些規劃"},{"start":17725.911,"end":17740.192,"text":"因為我們先回到最基本的觀念啦所謂護病比就是說我們要照顧護理師跟病患兩者之間的權益嘛所以會有護病比這個概念嘛那這個概念在專科護理師不適用嗎"},{"start":17741.537,"end":17761.345,"text":"專科護理師應該是比一般的護理師更細膩你說的都沒有錯就六個大科嘛六大科的專科護理師要不要有關話當時在補這個夜班所以他如果上夜班他的上夜班的方式"},{"start":17762.645,"end":17784.862,"text":"部長對不起齁,你要跟上問題。夜班今天齁,我們已經game over了。現在再講到第二個問題。第二個問題是專科護理師的護病比要不要有所規範?專科護理師他的工作性質齁,跟第一線的護理師其實是不太一樣。所以他到底要不要算護理的人力?"},{"start":17786.308,"end":17810.479,"text":"所以我才回去跟部長講最根本的問題就是說一個人一般的護理師有他的工作職長這個我了解專科護理師有他的工作職長這個我也了解我們從保護醫護他們的權益保護病人權益角度的觀點你從專科護理師工作的性質"},{"start":17811.76,"end":17820.378,"text":"護病比要不要有一定的規範這個是他們的問題還是說因為他們是專科護理師這件事情就不要規範完全不需要有管制"},{"start":17821.716,"end":17844.567,"text":"現在這個是他們跟我陳情的問題啦他們沒有機會直接請教部長所以我來這邊請教你放心專科護理師協會是我跟我有幫忙有幫忙有到啦那個都是阿成立的時候你有去嗎?有去沒去我是不會去的啦那是久的事但是他在成立這邊你如果有去你要去的啦專科護理師"},{"start":17845.956,"end":17846.616,"text":"沒辦法算嘛"},{"start":17873.935,"end":17882.179,"text":"我只要一個答案第一個要不要如果不要理由是什麼啊第三個怎麼保障他們的權益一樣因為我時間的關係我也不要"},{"start":17898.644,"end":17921.545,"text":"讓主席不好意思這麼多議事人員聽我在上面跟你要逼一個答案出來這麼的痛苦這麼的花時間沒有關係我們一個禮拜之內你用書面回覆我那我們下一次喔你回去準備好喔下一次我再來的時候我的問題就會更直接喔希望那時候部長對問題的掌握會更清楚OK好謝謝"},{"start":17924.948,"end":17951.346,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝委員。謝謝黃國昌委員、謝謝部長。張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員不在。何欣淳委員、何欣淳委員、何欣淳委員不在。高金素梅委員、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。葉元之、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。"},{"start":17953.078,"end":17971.733,"text":"黃孟楷委員不在本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定"},{"start":17973.041,"end":17990.473,"text":"報告舉行答完畢委員執行為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議到此結束現在上會"},{"start":18024.904,"end":18025.384,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18043.221,"end":18043.621,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"16226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16226","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea20f6709a214df6ef1097cfa4245e4149083084566cc2bdb441c4a24362e211795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具「公民投票法第二十三條條文修正草案」案。五、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公民投票法第二十一條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-04","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-04T08:30:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T13:20:00+08:00","duration":17383,"影片長度":"04:49:43","委員發言時間":"08:30:17 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條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案"},{"start":2526.055,"end":2552.798,"text":"原因大家心知肚明公投跟大選拆開之後造成投票率的下降首先就是使得公投要通過幾乎變成不可能而它的下一個影響是什麼就是去年的公投年其實是民進黨最可恥的公投年在民進黨修二公投法之後去年公投年不要講沒有公投法通過沒有公投案通過連一個公投提案都沒有出現了"},{"start":2554.212,"end":2576.417,"text":"公投正式被民進黨宣告死亡。為什麼?因為大家知道民進黨修了公投法之後不會有公投通過啊。為什麼我們還要浪費力氣去連署成案公投呢?所以去年竟然是一案公投都沒成立。這不是今天民進黨之恥嗎?"},{"start":2578.35,"end":2600.059,"text":"這難道對得起蔡同榮、蔡公投的在天之靈嗎?我最後想要一句話來奉還民進黨不要把公投並大選當成毒蛇猛獸全世界的公投多半都是跟大選一起來舉行這句話不是羅智強講的這句話如果錯了不要罵羅智強這句話是陳其邁講的"},{"start":2607.264,"end":2632.293,"text":"民進黨當年多麼多麼地力拼了公投並大選今年就多麼多麼地踐踏公投並大選今天在這裡我還是真的誠懇的奉勸民進黨公投並大選不是在野黨的提出來首提的是民進黨長期的信念不要把自己神主牌砸在地上拜託今天翻籃改正謝謝"},{"start":2635.904,"end":2636.585,"text":"三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":2647.914,"end":2669.53,"text":"另外也補介紹我們今天列席的單位還有司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳的副廳長楊坤喬副廳長還有法務部的參事廖江憲廖參事接下來請臺灣民眾黨黨團代表麥玉珍委員提案說明謝謝主席"},{"start":2677.677,"end":2703.395,"text":"大家早安。針對公民投票法案21條及43條條文修正草案的提案修正草案主要基於優化投票流程保障選民的隱私並減少選務成本以下重點以說明第一提案背景與動機我們"},{"start":2705.777,"end":2732.21,"text":"台灣民眾黨本市修法由台灣民眾黨立法院黨團提出。背景沿自2017年立法院張地了公民投票的提案門檻,導致公投提案數量大幅增加。在2018年九合一大選期間,公投案件案數多達10件。"},{"start":2735.032,"end":2744.911,"text":"現行一案一章所以選票印製的方式讓選民需要在多張選票上"},{"start":2746.26,"end":2770.007,"text":"主義勾選,增加了投票複雜度,影響了選民的投票體驗。同時,選務人員的工作負擔也加重,並造成選務成本上升。二、公民隱私與秘密投票的保障。現行選舉規定,允許選民選舉"},{"start":2772.829,"end":2785.926,"text":"選擇的部分領取或不領取的特定公投選票,然而這一過程可能導致旁人藉由選民是否領取"},{"start":2788.254,"end":2812.559,"text":"某些公投的票推測其投票的意向,今而侵犯了選民秘密的投票權利,本是修法你參考美國公投的制度,將所有的議題印在同一張選票上。"},{"start":2813.579,"end":2829.903,"text":"避免他人得以窺探選民的投票意圖。第三、修法內容與新增的條款。本次修法章在第21條增訂第二頁明確規定當公投案數超過一定的數量時,所有的議題"},{"start":2840.816,"end":2867.085,"text":"因應製同意帳的選票。此條款不僅能簡化選民勾選的過程,亦有助於維護投票的隱私,確保選務順利進行。此外,本修法授權中央主管機構制定當公投案數超過一定數量的標準。"},{"start":2869.554,"end":2894.111,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19"},{"start":2896.653,"end":2920.347,"text":"符合時機的需求,藉由統一選票選民可快速完整投票的流程,減少了多張選票造成混亂,亦其可提升選舉的效力,並合法祕密投票的基本原則。"},{"start":2922.196,"end":2940.942,"text":"本案提案主張張多項投票議題合併在一張的選票上有助於現實的辯解、隱私及效率的選票目的。希望大家支持臺灣民眾黨的修法。謝謝。好。謝謝賴議長委員。接下來請賴士寶委員提案說明。"},{"start":2960.835,"end":2986.63,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進本席所提的修法呢修公投法第三十條相關的規定我們都知道這個公投是直接民權的展現也是民進黨特別是最早的蔡同榮委員長期的不斷的在campaign的一個訴求"},{"start":2988.086,"end":3015.94,"text":"就是直接民權臺灣的民主發展一切就是為了服務老百姓人民最大人民是頭家我們立委是大議士官員也是總統選上之後找他們來的這一切就是為了服務人民所以直接民權的展現就是公投的結果結果一定要實施啊"},{"start":3018.152,"end":3045.32,"text":"結果呢我們可以看到2018年以和養綠通過了那個條文是什麼那個條文就是原來的電液法95條第一項所提到的在2025年所有的核電都要廢掉把這個條文廢掉啦也就是2025年的非核把它廢掉"},{"start":3047.236,"end":3072.323,"text":"所以這裏面很清楚的老百姓是要以核養綠、核綠共存。結果民進黨政府懷柴要去找,硬是通通的把核電廠通通殺掉。現在很清楚的,這段時間,現在臺灣就是非核,臺灣一個核電廠都沒有。河山的澳籍現在在大修,也沒有。可見得,工作是假的啊。"},{"start":3077.961,"end":3093.568,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正"},{"start":3108.254,"end":3120.96,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":3129.52,"end":3150.558,"text":"例如說環境部長如果你不做的話你辭職這是對自己的一個主張對自己的一個政治主張負責任的表現這個工作結果你不能接受那你就離開老百姓的意志最大老百姓的意志要展現那結果"},{"start":3151.581,"end":3163.987,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":3178.032,"end":3205.548,"text":"我個人覺得兩年不夠啊改成四年所以我第二個主張就是改成四年第三個前面委員提到了原來的公民投票法厚水厚水也沒有強制規定要綁大選可是不排除綁大選結果現在呢2019年民進黨仗著國會的暴力的多數"},{"start":3206.957,"end":3231.96,"text":"本來改成鳥籠公投或者是鐵籠公投,絕對不可以來這個大選。說好了,結果到從2019到現在,一個公投案都沒有過。活生生的掐死民進黨長期的主張,那就是公投。長期的主張,人民直接民權的一個展現。那麼最後一點我要提到的,"},{"start":3232.95,"end":3237.796,"text":"我看到媒體有報導說中選的主委說這樣啊這個東西這樣選務的問題啦這是選務的問題啦是什麼政治的問題等等的不對李主委你看一看其他先進國家美國也好瑞士也好"},{"start":3252.412,"end":3264.158,"text":"五個公投案十個公投案都跟大選在一起了現在美國要投票了公投案所有的案子列在一張不管你五個案子十個案子二十個案子列在一張所以就不會有2018年的那種混亂的情況發生這個你們要去改進了"},{"start":3271.534,"end":3278.761,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3298.252,"end":3302.534,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":3313.078,"end":3340.952,"text":"現在美國馬上要投票了美國除了選總統選選國會議員之外另外一張就是要他的公投案所有的公投案放在一張選票裡面這些的問題就沒有了我覺得用這樣的技術問題來卡住說公投不能辦大選這是非常滑稽的這是欺騙台灣人民那麼最後再次強調我的提案就是"},{"start":3342.065,"end":3348.352,"text":"公投是人民展現直接民權,他公投的結果不能夠僅供參考啊,要實施啊,如果你做不到,那你就走人嘛,就這樣子而已。這裡當然,這裡面的首長不包括總統,總統是選的,總統是選的,這個跟總統沒有關係,是相關的首長,比如說以和洋率,"},{"start":3365.88,"end":3383.064,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修"},{"start":3398.19,"end":3404.781,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":3440.166,"end":3441.917,"text":"請張宏祿委員程序發言。"},{"start":3452.959,"end":3471.454,"text":"主席、各位同仁我們今天討論這個公投法我相信在座的每個人都支持公投因為這是人民的創制複決權不過大家也不要忘了在民國110年的時候我們的全國性公投裡面第19案"},{"start":3472.395,"end":3486.825,"text":"就那時候是我們的江副院長他是領銜人他那邊的主題就是是否同意公民投票要綁大選其實那時候的投票結果是不通過的"},{"start":3488.763,"end":3490.524,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":3509.656,"end":3527.348,"text":"再有一些技術性的問題比如說要把所有的公投案列在一張看似好像合理不過以我當過選委會總幹事的經驗我覺得這個到時候再開票再計票會有很大的問題為什麼勒"},{"start":3529.429,"end":3550.665,"text":"如果中間有一題他是蓋錯了那你這一整張的選票你到底要全部認定還是一題一題來認定這會造成選務人員非常非常大的一個困擾所以我覺得今天不管各位委員提出的所有的案子我覺得我們都尊重"},{"start":3551.365,"end":3579.566,"text":"不過這麼知識體大的一個問題我覺得我們必須要開個公聽會啦讓所有的人專家學者或者是有在這個過程當中有沒有受害者或什麼的我們都應該讓他來說說他的心聲我們應該讓聲音讓大家聽得到我覺得應該這樣啊我們內政委員會從以前到現在遇到重大的法案我們都會這樣子"},{"start":3580.567,"end":3608.313,"text":"像上個會期的海保法也是大家說認為應該要多開公聽會我記得我們多開了五場公聽會那我覺得把社會各界的聲音我們都聽到那我們再來好好的來就法案的內容我們大家來討論所以我在這邊要跟主席報告我真的具體的建議我們來開個三場或幾場的公聽會然後呢我們今天我們也不要浪費時間"},{"start":3609.713,"end":3614.054,"text":"我們還是繼續質詢但不要討論法案等公聽會完了之後主席你再來排我覺得這樣子比較符合我們立法院尊重民意然後我們了解民意我們再來好好的討論法案我覺得這樣子是比較好的一件事情所以我在這邊主席我要非常非常的嚴肅的跟你報告我們要開公聽會要開公聽會謝謝"},{"start":3642.654,"end":3646.317,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員張鴻祿等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3663.67,"end":3683.794,"text":"謝謝我首先也呼應剛剛張宏祿委員他所講的今天這個修法的提出其實我覺得都各有各的道理啦那我也認為說必須要開幾場公聽會來支持我們這個修法為什麼我們都知道從2018年"},{"start":3686.946,"end":3689.873,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":3696.281,"end":3718.768,"text":"在2018年如果要檢討說民進黨害怕這個提案怕公投綁大選的話那也很感謝國民黨一直提起蔡同榮委員我也要提醒國民黨我們是不是也要邀請丁守中委員也要來參加公聽會當年的受害者是他"},{"start":3720.182,"end":3723.784,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":3734.454,"end":3752.041,"text":"我不是說要拖到12月再來處理這些公聽會但是至少我們要讓多一點這些可能當時有經歷公投跟大選綁在一起的當事人來發表一下他們的意見吧。二、當初2018年的時候因為邊開票邊投票"},{"start":3761.297,"end":3785.517,"text":"這一些亂象的時候當然我們也期待中選會未來面對大型的選舉、複雜的選舉有檢討的空間以外你要不要問問民眾民眾在人民已經在2021年投票公投票第19案不同意公投綁大選大家支持是跟人的選舉來可以分開"},{"start":3786.818,"end":3807.296,"text":"在今天國民黨的提案裡面也有一案希望公投的效力是可以延長到四年而不是兩年那我們現在三年還沒到我們就來提出這一個我覺得不管是本黨的委員或者是社會甚至國民黨的委員我們都需要聆聽更多社會的意見"},{"start":3808.337,"end":3819.746,"text":"在2026年如果國民黨急著把公投綁入大選如果國民黨認為2018年選輸的不是只有民進黨如果認為國民黨沒有選輸的話我覺得"},{"start":3822.799,"end":3824.019,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":3855.337,"end":3859.423,"text":"審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3872.025,"end":3874.447,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":3886.601,"end":3908.873,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。七、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法"},{"start":3912.415,"end":3936.736,"text":"但是當時的輪值主席似乎認為安排公聽會似乎沒有必要,那當時法案就審查完畢了。但是到了隔週,輪到我要安排上週的會議的時候,我特別三黨都去拜託。那麼傅坤祺總召他說先去問民眾黨,民眾黨同意我就同意,那我當然去找民眾黨的黃總召。"},{"start":3938.237,"end":3939.458,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":3956.425,"end":3971.884,"text":"那麼黃總召說我騙他他也沒有撤遷所以到後來上週一個無頭公案到底憲法訴訟法要不要排公聽會各黨的態度如何一直是眾說紛紜但是呢就在上週我們審查稅務事件審理法的時候"},{"start":3972.645,"end":3974.046,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":3992.827,"end":4015.807,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。六、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。七、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。八、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。九、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。十、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。十、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。十、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。十、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。十、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。十、審查公投法部分條文修正草案。十、審查公投法部分條文修"},{"start":4020.951,"end":4046.453,"text":"新竹市市民也以非常高的投票率跟非常高的同意率通過了一個公投法所以到底這個公投法呢?到底目前的施政結果不要只看2018、2019、2020等等我們來看看2021也有一個這樣的正面的例子所以建請我們在邀請公聽會的時候邀請新竹市當時發起這樣的一個公投法的團體他是公民團體發起的邀請他們來"},{"start":4048.575,"end":4064.84,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":4082.902,"end":4100.443,"text":"謝謝主席現在進行程序發言這當然排公投法知識體大大家需要充分的討論這一點本席並不反對有關於民進黨黨團希望先召開公聽會本席同樣不反對因為我覺得充分討論本來就是有其必要不過本席在這個地方借用這個程序發言的時間做一個建議"},{"start":4101.024,"end":4121.201,"text":"就是我們也要兼顧會議的效率跟梳理公聽會的題目我們如果要召開公聽會的話我要先知道討論的標的跟對象整個法案的重點需要更多社會大眾意見的爭點在哪裡所以本期要花一點點時間去建議就是說我們今天走完答詢的程序之後我覺得還是可以進行法條的宣讀然後進行第一輪的大體討論"},{"start":4122.242,"end":4149.383,"text":"這一輪的大體討論不用進到主條今天也不會出委員會請民進黨放心但是在大體討論的過程中也許是各黨對這個法案有意見的人或者是各黨團先一邊透過答詢的過程先整理一下在一輪的大體討論抓一個相對短的時間把爭點梳理出來那麼未來在招待公聽會的時候至少主題會非常明確這樣子也兼顧了法案的審查進度這是本席的建議希望這個主席待會在裁示的時候可以做出參考以上謝謝"},{"start":4154.38,"end":4164.482,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":4184.65,"end":4188.134,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4202.342,"end":4212.33,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":4230.705,"end":4233.87,"text":"還是現在我們先休息讓大家來討論好那我們現在休息"},{"start":4694.985,"end":4715.829,"text":"本次議程所列討論事項僅辦理詢答以及宣讀條文。四、兩場公聽會召開後,輪值順序為下週請張宏祿召委,下下週由本席各排一場公聽會。"},{"start":4717.54,"end":4725.782,"text":"之後我們再進行審查。以上宣告有沒有問題?沒有。我們接下來請中選會李主委靜永報告。請業務報告與法案一併報告。"},{"start":4752.879,"end":4768.128,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員女士先生貴委員會今天舉行全體委員會議本人應邀列席報告業務的概況並被質詢深感榮幸以下僅就本會近期辦理的各項工作分別報告如後"},{"start":4768.948,"end":4796.781,"text":"第一項就是辦理基隆市第19屆市長謝國良的罷免案。基隆市第19屆市長謝國良罷免案是在113年10月13日已經完成投開票。在有效的票數之中不同意罷免的票數多於同意罷免的票數。依公職人員選舉罷免法第90條第二項的規定本罷免案投票結果是否決。本會已經在113年10月18日依法公告。"},{"start":4797.722,"end":4800.507,"text":"罷免案的投票結果。二、辦理直轄市縣市議員的缺額補選。"},{"start":4804.98,"end":4811.684,"text":"首先是辦理臺中市議會第4屆議員第15選區、宜蘭縣議會第20屆議員第4選舉區的缺額補選。臺中市第4屆第15選舉區、宜蘭縣議會第20屆議員第4選舉區缺額補選,在113年4月13日舉行投票。投票結果分別由吳建德先生、黃文如女士當選。本會在113年4月19日發布當選人的名單公告。"},{"start":4835.781,"end":4840.423,"text":"再來是辦理新竹縣議會第20屆第7選舉區、臺東縣議會第20屆議員第16選舉區的缺額補選新竹縣議會的部分跟臺東縣議會的缺額補選都是在113年6月1日來舉行投票投票的結果分別是由陳興宏先生、董昌華先生當選本會在113年6月7日發布當選人名單的公告"},{"start":4864.246,"end":4866.574,"text":"再其次報告督導辦理地方公職人員補選的作業。"},{"start":4869.676,"end":4898.155,"text":"從113年1月到現在,督導各直轄市縣市選舉委員會,辦理本屆地方公職人員補選已經辦理了有86項,預定辦理的有6項,辦理的情形請各位委員參閱副表的一跟二。再其次是辦理直轄市縣市議員締補的作業,截至目前為止,已經締補本屆直轄市縣市議員13人,締補的情形請各位參閱副表第三。"},{"start":4899.315,"end":4925.801,"text":"在其次是受理全國性公民投票辦理的情形本會辦理的全國性公民投票案件一百一十三年一共有三案辦理的情形分別報告如下第一是本會在一百一十二年十二月八日受理季節先生領銜提出的你是否同意廢止二零二零年十二月二十九日國防部宣布將民國九十四年次以後出生的異男異婦異妻延長為一年的公告"},{"start":4926.701,"end":4945.472,"text":"全國性公民投票案經113年7月18日本會第605次的委員會議決議本案經補正之後仍不符公民投票法的規定所以我們予以駁回本會在113年7月31日已經復函給領銜人。第二件事本會在113年7月12日受理"},{"start":4946.704,"end":4964.64,"text":"潘漢江先生領銜提出的你是否同意全面禁止含金屬材質的彈簧蓄壓式套索陷阱的使用、持有、販售、製造、陳列以及輸入、出。全國性公民投票案,經113年8月16日本會第606次的委員會議決議,"},{"start":4969.161,"end":4987.141,"text":"本案有舉行聽證的必要依法定程序發布公告及舉行聽證,並且在113年9月24日上午舉行聽證完略。四、於同年10月18日本會第608次的委員會議決議本案續名理由,含請提案人之領先人來補證。"},{"start":4988.442,"end":5016.983,"text":"另外一件事,113年7月10日受理吳雨欣女士領銜提出的《你是否同意禁止海上公海的賽歌》全國性公民投票案經113年8月16日本會第606次委員會議決議本案有舉行聽證的必要依法定程序發布公告及舉行聽證並且在113年9月24日下午舉行聽證完略在113年的10月18日本會第608次委員會議決議本案因序名理由含請"},{"start":5017.924,"end":5035.86,"text":"提案人致領銜人的補正。在即時報告全國性公民投票電子連署系統上線。那簡單的講起來這個電子連署系統已經在今年的4月10日來施行同時同日來舉行上線。"},{"start":5037.116,"end":5050.942,"text":"在7次報告是修正發布公職人員選舉公辦證件發表會的實施辦法第三條,為了強化保障身心障礙候選人參與公辦證件會發表會的權益,所以在8月21日修正發布公職人員選舉"},{"start":5052.443,"end":5065.411,"text":"公辦證件發表會實施辦法第三條政略第四項明定選舉委員會辦理公辦證件發表會應視身心障礙候選人的實際需要提供合理調整的措施其所需的經費由該次選舉的經費來支應。"},{"start":5069.534,"end":5089.7,"text":"再其次是辦理選務幹部人員的講習,為充實各級選舉委員會專監職人員、地方政府選舉業務主管以及承辦人員、選務幹部人員之選務法令以及實務相關的專業智能,所以本會與行政院人事行政總署、公務人力發展學院南投縣區合作辦理"},{"start":5091.52,"end":5109.809,"text":"選務幹部人員獎席113年度6月到9月一共辦理的6期培訓的人數有235人。在政黨連坐裁罰的部分,101年4月3日起契金一共裁罰了217件,裁罰的金額總共達到1億8千191萬5千元。受連坐裁罰的政黨、受政黨推薦候選人"},{"start":5118.633,"end":5140.591,"text":"所犯罪名以及裁罰金額相如附件四跟五。在其次是辦理選舉送徵的案件目前上系署中的案件檢數暨有最高行政法院有五件臺北高等行政法院有九件各該訴訟案件的進度相如附件附表六跟七。在其次是參與國際選舉組織的活動"},{"start":5145.002,"end":5159.533,"text":"積極參與世界選舉機關協會 及亞洲選舉官署協會 的活動。113年1月本會由本人率團參加在印度新德里舉行的AAEA執行委員會,邀請各國來臺參加113年我國所舉辦的AAEA會員大會。"},{"start":5164.776,"end":5190.645,"text":"113年3月20日AWAVE第12屆執行委員會議在韓國仁川舉行本會是由陳副主任委員曹健代表參加。113年9月10日到14日2024年AAEA的會員大會在我國舉行。這次會議一共有印度等7個國家出席實體的會議另外孟加拉等三國採視訊的方式參加會議我國在這次的大會接任AAEA的主席國AAEA會員大會"},{"start":5192.426,"end":5213.045,"text":"舉辦期間並舉行維護選舉公正性以防制選務的錯假訊息的國際研討會美國選舉制度基金會選舉專家發表專題的演講。一百一三年10月21日到25日AWeb的第六屆會員大會在哥倫比亞的波哥大舉行本會是由本人率團參加並且在會員大會獲頒選務實踐以及創新獎。"},{"start":5218.462,"end":5244.002,"text":"其次,報告第11屆第一會期內政委員會通過本會的臨時提案一共有兩案,辦理情形相如副表達。最後,報告結語,擴大政治參與,落實主權在民是民主政治的基本理念,選舉是人民政治參與的具體表現,公民投票則是主權在民的直接實踐,本會為達成貫徹憲法保障民主法治及人民參政權的"},{"start":5245.203,"end":5269.033,"text":"設立宗旨,營造公平公正公開的參選環境,為本會努力追求的目標。本會全力同仁將群策群力依法辦理選舉罷免以及公民投票等各項業務,完善各項選務作業,增進社會大眾對選務機關的信任感,讓人民展現真正的意志,以確保憲法賦予人民的參政權利。以上業務件報告的部分,敬請各位指教。"},{"start":5269.633,"end":5270.934,"text":"公民投票法的修正案。首先第一個案子是剛剛大家琢磨很多的公民投票跟選舉要在並同辦理這部分。"},{"start":5295.877,"end":5322.482,"text":"在討論這個議題的時候大家都一定會提到2018年九項的地方選舉跟十個案子的公民投票合併舉行所引發的選務的大混亂那這個實在是一個很不堪的一個回憶那當然在這個事件之後各方的檢討聲浪很多那有很多人指責中選會應變"},{"start":5324.735,"end":5334.078,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5350.144,"end":5365.281,"text":"我特別要提到的一個情況就是說其實在2018年以前從2004年到2018年以前一共有十個案子有十個公投案子他們是合併選舉來舉辦的"},{"start":5367.623,"end":5374.225,"text":"在2018年以前的合併辦理並沒有發生2018年的選務亂象。那為什麼一樣是合併辦理2018年會發生這個選務的亂象呢?除了中選會的應變不急之外還有沒有其他的原因?這個我們必須要去正式面對才能夠根本的解決問題。"},{"start":5391.431,"end":5415.684,"text":"其實社會也有很多很多的這個發現這個發現裡面最重要的一點其實就是選務的量遠遠超過我們選務機關所能承載的範圍這是一個不爭的事實以往一個案子兩個案子三個案子甚至於是四個案子不會發生問題但是增加到十個案子就會發生問題了"},{"start":5418.206,"end":5434.28,"text":"這個問題到底要如何解決呢?簡單的一句話來講就是一定要進行選務的分流的改革要把這個量給分散出去讓我們選務機關的量能足夠才能夠確保選務的過程是順利的"},{"start":5436.301,"end":5448.026,"text":"到底要怎麼做呢?具體的辦法就是在2019年6月大院修正公民投票法,把選舉跟公民投票脫鉤了,分開了。"},{"start":5451.448,"end":5464.746,"text":"分開了之後到底有沒有好處呢?有沒有改善呢?的確是有改善的。我們從2020年的總統跟立委的選舉、2021年的四大公投、2022年的九合一地方公職人員選舉,一直到2024年的總統跟立委再一次的選舉,"},{"start":5469.232,"end":5477.519,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5492.611,"end":5511.9,"text":"投票人人數到選舉投票動線的規劃跟管理我們做了一系列的檢討以及改革才能夠有這麼一個效果所以所謂的分流把選舉跟罷免選舉跟公投來脫鉤是有效的這是第一點的報告"},{"start":5512.925,"end":5539.397,"text":"當然我們的委員有很多對國外的法制都相當的了解也舉了很多國外的例子那國外的例子固然是脫鉤跟合併都有的我們拿大家最喜歡談的瑞士來講瑞士他的選舉跟公投就是徹底的脫鉤如果是這個公投碰到選舉的話那公投就要改期了"},{"start":5540.077,"end":5546.482,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5566.966,"end":5590.534,"text":"限制公投案不能多於事件所以最為大家所津津樂道的瑞士他除了徹底的脫鉤之外同時還限制公投的案數這是最徹底的在美國大家也都提到了美國就是併在一起"},{"start":5591.374,"end":5609.329,"text":"美國併在一起固然是沒有錯,但是他也有配套。他怎麼配套呢?就拿加州的例子來講,加州一次也是十幾個案子上來,但是呢,加州並不像我們台灣,是必須要在當天一天內八點到下午四點,必須要在當天親自到投開票所去投票,美國不來這套。"},{"start":5615.194,"end":5616.195,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":5632.386,"end":5657.692,"text":"不但如此,在有些州,包括伊利諾州,他限制每次只能夠三案。包括密西西比州,他限制每次只能夠四案。所以就外國的立法律來講,大概有三種方式來分流。為什麼大家都要分流?因為選務機關的承載量的確是有限的,不是沒辦法你把我帶到大陸,我都有辦法躺下去,絕對不是這個樣子。"},{"start":5660.373,"end":5684.068,"text":"而分流的方式最徹底的是瑞士他是分這個脫鉤而且限制案數那在其次呢美國比如說是加州他是有多元的投票方式拉開投票的時間不必親自到投開票所當天去投票他也限制了案數那臺灣我們現在所採取的方式只是把它脫鉤而已"},{"start":5684.628,"end":5705.676,"text":"我們只是做到瑞士的一半脫鉤我們還沒有限制到這個案數那如果說要把這個選舉跟這個公投再綁在一起的話如果沒有採取這些分流的配套的措施那真的是非常非常的危險"},{"start":5706.716,"end":5725.769,"text":"我想我們的人民絕對不會允許我們選務機關、我們政府部門再發生一次2018年的選務的亂象。但是呢,要談到說多元的投票方式,這樣又壞了就對了。你要這個分流,如果要採取像美國那樣子,可以7000投票、可以通信投票,這樣又壞了。"},{"start":5727.15,"end":5742.275,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5750.575,"end":5757.2,"text":"三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5766.688,"end":5777.932,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5796.118,"end":5823.01,"text":"我們認為這個辭職是一個政治的責任那政治的責任實在是沒有辦法在法律具體的條文裡面來予以規範你硬把它規定進去也無從去執行所以政治的責任應該是政治解決至於機關首長如果有違反其他行政上的義務的話現有的法制也應該都可以cover來處理那這一點我們也希望大家能夠審慎的再來研議"},{"start":5825.511,"end":5850.018,"text":"再一個就是民眾黨團所提出來的,如果有多案的話要把它印在,不過這個就好,要把它印在一張裡面,這個實務上會有困難,因為我們的開票都是必須要簡暢記者,要天開洪看就對了。你一張票十幾個案子,然後你展開的時候,某一個案子是贊成某一個案子是反對,"},{"start":5851.837,"end":5852.818,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":5874.272,"end":5891.007,"text":"澳洲,澳洲是用人工的開票澳洲就是一個案子一張公投票那這一點也提供給大家做參考那其他未盡的部分等一下再詢問的時候再請各位能夠提出來多多指教以上報告請各位指教謝謝"},{"start":5901.164,"end":5928.689,"text":"其他單位的報告請委員們自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員質詢前原例做幾點宣告第一每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天"},{"start":5931.239,"end":5938.266,"text":"僅進行詢答,臨時提案截止提出時間11點,與本會委員詢答完畢後處理。」請問各位同仁有沒有意見?"},{"start":5958.814,"end":5970.319,"text":"如果有的話,我們就還是在委員詢答完畢後處理。目前沒有。好,現在進行詢答。我們請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言。蘇巧慧委員發言。蘇巧慧委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我們請李主委。請李主委。"},{"start":5991.063,"end":5998.048,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":6019.005,"end":6039.313,"text":"公投綁大選你是否同意結論就是不同意綁大選這樣子的態度已經在社會的公投當中也展現過了所以我們今天為什麼又要再來探討一次公投是不是要跟大選的時程合併這個主委你心中的看法剛剛其實已經花了很長的時間表述過了嘛作為一個選務機關你從主旨也好從選務的實際工作來講您的態度就是不贊成"},{"start":6048.157,"end":6067.055,"text":"公投和選舉兩者併在一起。我是代表我們全國的選務工作人員,包括地方政府辦理選務的人員,大家共同的心聲。我們是堅決的希望公投跟大選能夠分開辦理。"},{"start":6068.236,"end":6091.422,"text":"所以您的態度很清楚代表選務全國的選務機關人員認為這個公投跟大選是應該要分開的說實在的我們今天其實這屆的立法院真的是很常要上這個歷史課啊要回憶一下我們所有修法的這個前因後果所以我們來看一下嘛我們公投法制定我們再看一個法律你要修正你一定要符合它的本質意義"},{"start":6092.662,"end":6095.624,"text":"實際作為可不可行?公民投票制度的意義與主體公民投票這個制度的設計意義是什麼?就是在民主國原則也就是國民主權主權在民的原則之下我們當然有了間接民主就是我們在選舉的時候我們選出了代議士讓這些代議士民意代表"},{"start":6123.007,"end":6125.189,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":6141.525,"end":6153.963,"text":"所以一個是對人的選舉一個是對事的公投間接民主和直接民主這是民主社會裡面在民主國原則下面的兩大原則它就是拆開的狀況啊這個主委講到這裡我們都討論下去這沒問題吧"},{"start":6158.649,"end":6162.992,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。八、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":6187.625,"end":6214.457,"text":"我們當時的狀況確確實實就是因為公投的案數太多所以我們不但要一邊選人但一邊還要決定事情結果事情的每一張的選舉投票單上面事情投票單上面事情的敘述哎呀夾敘法道義法這個鼎爭法什麼都用上了就是故意讓你看不懂"},{"start":6214.957,"end":6219.599,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":6239.045,"end":6239.866,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":6259.108,"end":6283.245,"text":"就今天國民黨民眾黨提出的公投法修正案我們主席才是願意再召開兩場的公聽會這兩場的公聽會我認為非常的重要因為它就是再次喚醒大家的記憶我們已經討論多年的公投法公投公投對市的公投到底要和對選人的選舉要怎麼處理這件事情"},{"start":6287.828,"end":6293.031,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6311.3,"end":6317.402,"text":"我想這也符合全體公民的一個希望期待希望選務是能夠順利所以你要怎麼對事情表達意見這是提案人這樣子的意見但是對選務來講我們要清楚明白更何況我提前還發現了一個做出了一個調查來講的話是從"},{"start":6332.128,"end":6335.409,"text":"二、審查委員吳秉叡等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6359.394,"end":6385.32,"text":"超過三分之一都是立法委員立法委員你不是就是在立法院剛剛我們在說的間接民主當中你就是應該在立法院裡面做提案修正法律或提案的人嗎你怎麼會又跑到外面去做一個直接民主的領銜人我覺得這有一點大家也可以討論看看也許公聽會上面也可以做一個討論"},{"start":6386.9,"end":6391.101,"text":"最後我要針對這個還有另外一案這個30條的部分也是跟大家做個意見的交換因為我們還有兩場公聽會可以表達這公投法30條學得洋洋灑灑這個提案的時候是說有關重大決策應由總統或權責機關這個於三個月內提出"},{"start":6411.666,"end":6435.328,"text":"為實踐該公民投票內容之必要處置。」聽起來很正確啊就是行政機關要照著剛剛直接民主公民投票的結論去做可是魔鬼藏在細節裡啦他在後面你看從但這個字後面開始喔但違反該公民投票案內容之行政處分法規定或行政規則或執行法律細節或補充性規定應即停止欸"},{"start":6436.949,"end":6461.932,"text":"什麼是違反怎麼個違反法公民投票公投這個其實常常都是方向啊那方向決定了之後有太多的執行的狀況是屬於行政應該要作業的狀況啊一層一層的行政機關有太多的方法可以去決定去執行公投的方向啊那難道你每一個執行的方法"},{"start":6462.472,"end":6467.238,"text":"都要再拿出來再公民投票一次嗎?再公民投票說這個行政機關用A方法不合適違反了這個我們剛剛公民投票案的內容決議然後我們要再投票一次嗎?這個太奇怪了嘛所以第一這就是所謂的不確定性法律概念又存在在這裡了"},{"start":6484.077,"end":6500.035,"text":"第二、如果沒有僅此執行者,權責機關之首長應立即提出辭職。哇!用律法來規定行政人員要辭職的,這又是透視人員第一敗又看到了。結果你看看不明確的行政概念,不明確的法律概念,和"},{"start":6501.577,"end":6523.466,"text":"立法權侵犯行政權。」各位,歷史課又來了,有沒有覺得這個場景似曾相識?不明確的法律概念加立法權侵犯行政權,啊不就是從2月開始的國會擴權法案,就是在講這種事情嗎?所以等於是我們從2月開始一直到現在,甚至是大法官都已經剛剛做出了裁判了,"},{"start":6523.886,"end":6524.746,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6555.171,"end":6556.993,"text":"接下來請張志倫委員好主席好呃各位委員各位媒體先進各位官員大家早安是邀請李主委好請李主委"},{"start":6579.758,"end":6592.369,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6602.378,"end":6615.542,"text":"本席支持羅智強委員的版本主要就是需要說公投榜大選讓人民的心聲可以讓政府聽到所以我們也可以看一下我們過去公投法的歷史在當時在2003年民國92年的12月31號當時定立公投法的時候在24條就已經有這個條文是說這個中選會應該在公投"},{"start":6628.686,"end":6656.743,"text":"三十條條文修正草案案公告成立後一個月應該得以全國性的選舉是同日舉行其實當時的92年2003年的那個概念就是要公投綁大選可是那時候是用德字就說可以那在2018年的時候那時候民進黨是屬於多數在第23條那時候有有通過民進黨黨團的修法把德字改成英字意思就是把這個公投綁大選的合理性"},{"start":6657.483,"end":6683.665,"text":"再次加強說公投就應該要綁大選因為可以省錢讓人民省時間而且讓投票率變得更高可是沒有想到在2018年的時候那時候投票結果剛剛大家一直有講到十個公投案結果投出來的結果可能當時的民進黨執政黨不是很滿意所以在2019年的時候就修法講說公投現在因為選的不好公投不要綁大選了"},{"start":6685.126,"end":6686.448,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":6693.419,"end":6715.695,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我剛剛已經跟各位報告過就是說2004年我們第一次這個公民投票那個時候是跟大選在一起在2018以前2004以後一共進行了十個案子的公民投票的投票那他是跟選舉綁在一起的選務順遂沒有發生任何的問題"},{"start":6716.696,"end":6718.297,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":6730.683,"end":6732.565,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":6753.024,"end":6754.886,"text":"選舉選輸後來開始臨時大轉彎。那我要跟主委報告當時選舉完的時候選舉的結果"},{"start":6762.838,"end":6783.739,"text":"當時2018年的時候10個公投案基本上我們的投票的投票率都是大概55%左右投票人數大概將近1000萬人以上所以我認為這樣的投票是可以參考的可是我們看到在2019年修法過了以後我們合適來租公投榜大選還有藻礁公投"},{"start":6784.967,"end":6810.973,"text":"雖然都不通過可是當然大家很多人說因為沒有通過所以這個公投黨大選不能來看可是要跟主委報告的是公投黨大選不同意的比例只有400多萬人其實兩個選舉的投票數將近差了300多萬人主委你認為這樣子的投票數跟投票率可以代表全民的心聲嗎?如果增加300多萬人的投票數投票的結果會不會有可能改變?就中選會的職責來講投票率這麼低"},{"start":6815.059,"end":6818.834,"text":"數比過去的投票率少了10%。」這是中選會想要看到的結果嗎?"},{"start":6819.81,"end":6845.855,"text":"我想不管是投票率不管是通過與否的這個門檻呢都是公投法所明定的那在這個明定的法制底下所產生的結果我們中選會是予以尊重也希望全民大家共同遵守所以要跟主委報告投票人數降低這麼多投票率下降這麼多可是我們看到在111年當時18歲公民投票的時候那時候中選會又轉彎了為什麼突然又綁大選呢"},{"start":6848.536,"end":6871.047,"text":"所以那時候的投票率高達百分之將近百分之六十所以本市要希望中選會的主委不能做民進黨的打手不能幫民進黨護航有時候要綁大選就綁大選不綁大選就不綁大選我們只為法律來服務至於這個18歲公民權的部分那是根據憲法的規定"},{"start":6872.148,"end":6874.29,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":6891.921,"end":6919.374,"text":"主委剛剛我們剛開始有一個提案委員羅智強委員一開始也提案提到其實時空會轉換民意大家民意會民意如潮水大家會不同的時間會改變所以剛剛羅智強委員說我們最近新的民調有66%的民眾其實現在是支持公投黨大選所以那我要再跟主委請教一下針對當時這個造成的亂象了以後其實監察監察院有提出這個監察委員有提出的建議案"},{"start":6920.214,"end":6935.152,"text":"其實剛剛主委特別提到當時選舉十個公投案造成的亂象有關於選舉動線混亂、投拍票所、投票數不夠多以及選務人員人數不足請問這個主委你現在有沒有辦法有信心"},{"start":6936.113,"end":6936.654,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":6953.711,"end":6978.712,"text":"謝謝委員對選務的關心第一點我要說明的是2021年的公投綁大選的公投案沒有通過這是一個不爭的事實主委我剛剛跟你報告他的門檻沒有到門檻有沒有到門檻主委這是一個不爭的事實主委有沒有到門檻就是沒有通過沒有到門檻也沒到通過的門檻不通過的門檻嘛沒有沒有對啊所以代表投票數不夠多嘛"},{"start":6979.693,"end":6985.816,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":7005.106,"end":7006.268,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":7023.588,"end":7048.023,"text":"同時降低每個投開票所的投票人的人數有效的來降低。另外就是說在管理的部分這個投票的動線我們的選務工作人員是主動的來協助我們每一個選民能夠順利的快速的完成他的投票的整個過程。那大議員有沒有比較好?謝謝大院的支持大議員有調整有調整所以主委能不能保證"},{"start":7051.405,"end":7052.828,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":7059.364,"end":7087.702,"text":"如果被綁在一起我就不敢保證了還是不能保證?綁在一起我就不敢保證了所以主委你要好好再去檢討我們現在發生討論會請教你就是這些問題如果不綁在一起我們不要說保證了我們從2020開始到2024大大小小的選舉已經有多少我現在要求你就是說不管有沒有綁在一起其實台灣你要好好來安排動線好好提升我們選務人員的數量跟他們的待遇這樣我相信就不會"},{"start":7088.542,"end":7110.721,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法"},{"start":7115.885,"end":7143.444,"text":"根本就有一些台灣已經變鳥籠公投根本不能不能公投根本沒辦法實現啊為什麼我想請教現在有沒有人在使用你這個公投這個電子連署系統目前的案子都還沒有走到連署的這個階段都還沒有進到連署的階段如果到的話就可以使用這是因為現在整個連署大家認為門檻很高而且很難成案就算成案投票數也不會通過所以本局是可以請教你沒有具體的事證啊"},{"start":7144.204,"end":7144.645,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":7154.589,"end":7182.049,"text":"這個我覺得才能讓投票計票的速度增加加快你有沒有在研究這一塊?委員可能也注意到最近美國在總統大選有些州他們的這個開票他們的這個計票開票時間都拖了很長他們說台灣有夠厲害好過境後又充滿了這個公信大家信任所以我們目前的這個開票計票的這個方式是很多國家很有興趣的"},{"start":7182.409,"end":7182.871,"text":"三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":7186.298,"end":7212.375,"text":"最後一點時間我要跟主委報告主委你非常資深不管從蔡英文政府到愛心德政府你都擔任中選會主委因為現在大家都知道現在最近全民最關注的就是這個大法官的實質廢死案那全民大概大家很多人都對於這個大法官的視線非常不能認同所以我們當然國民黨團是希望說這個不論是用全民自主用公投案的力量或是"},{"start":7214.022,"end":7219.384,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7238.511,"end":7250.413,"text":"公投綁大選如果沒有配套的分流措施的話,它一定會造成災難。主委,這個分流的措施,你是主委啊,你要來處理啊,好不好?你是行政單位啊,你一定要來處理啊。好,謝謝。好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝張志榮委員。我們接下來請麥玉珍委員。"},{"start":7266.496,"end":7271.061,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":7286.701,"end":7293.323,"text":"主委好選務問題本來就是我們民眾可以批評的事情可見就是我們監督公共議題中選會卻在2024年總統選舉的時候就是針對就是批評選務人員21名的提告"},{"start":7308.806,"end":7316.335,"text":"最後還是全部不起訴。請問主委對於全部不起訴的結果是什麼看法?"},{"start":7317.775,"end":7343.337,"text":"第一點當然對於法院司法機關的一個裁決我們是予以尊重但是對於這個個案做如此的一個決定我們也覺得非常的遺憾那我們最重要的一個遺憾點在什麼地方就是說每一個國民對於關係到國家社會重大法議的這種議題的時候應該要負更多的責任"},{"start":7344.278,"end":7368.6,"text":"也就是說像選舉如此重大的一個民主的活動他牽涉到的是國家整個的根基你要對他批評不是說不行是可以的但是你要負比較高的責任要去做調查要去做了解然後去做適當的一個評論這樣才是公道的才是符合文明社會應該要有的態度"},{"start":7370.865,"end":7375.026,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":7394.272,"end":7406.634,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":7422.425,"end":7432.092,"text":"委員說我們是以官押民,這對我們來講實在是太沉重了。我們之所以採取司法的途徑,最主要就是要維護選舉機關的公正性,因為它是牽涉到國家社會重大的法益。"},{"start":7443.22,"end":7446.062,"text":"19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":7464.854,"end":7480.485,"text":"我們不會貿然提告,在提告之前其實關於選舉的各種對我們的指教也好、猜疑也好,我們透過很多方式來做說明、來做澄清、來做呼籲。但是有些人還是沒有聽清楚。"},{"start":7481.906,"end":7483.008,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":7497.368,"end":7503.653,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":7521.365,"end":7534.213,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案的票要亮起來來去點名。但是我請教你一下,一個案不用亮嗎?還是全部放在一張才要亮呢?一樣要亮起來讓民眾看到啊,一張還是亮,全部一起還是亮啊。這個部分我們覺得是說,我們要審視審人的做事情,才會不會影響到,不管是人還是事,誰決定?"},{"start":7548.152,"end":7549.053,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":7570.487,"end":7576.51,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7595.399,"end":7601.881,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7624.528,"end":7626.109,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":7646.159,"end":7649.102,"text":"在澳洲有一公開票是一張一張的但是呢現在目前我們是要讓年輕人要出來投票但是歷年呢我們越來越低"},{"start":7661.152,"end":7662.293,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":7680.875,"end":7699.942,"text":"選務的選導我們會繼續努力努力要有方向要有目標不是每次在質詢都是努力努力要有結果有在做有在做每次選舉我們都有做選務的選導再來就是說我們在電子連署已經拖到現在幾年了"},{"start":7701.346,"end":7701.827,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":7716.561,"end":7717.381,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":7733.988,"end":7741.452,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7758.504,"end":7771.788,"text":"不管是電子投票或其他方式的不在籍投票其實大院討論了很多也歷經很久的時間大家還有待進一步的凝聚共識這不只是我們選務機關說要不要的問題牽涉到各政黨各政治人物他們的考量的問題至少有一個共識至少有一個共識到最後是選務人員的心聲"},{"start":7786.013,"end":7788.355,"text":"所以我們希望我們民眾的聲音要讓你聽一聽說我們民眾要便利還有現在的我們的AI或者是我們的半導體我們現在的時代對這個也要讓總選國說明一下這不只是我們選務機關的問題也同時是政黨的問題是政治人物的問題是社會大眾的問題"},{"start":7808.956,"end":7817.902,"text":"但是你反應的問題就是你們選務的工作的努力還有你們的需求但是我們講的是民眾的需求希望我們的選務人員我們你這邊要如何去改善也減少了選務人員的壓力還有他的工作"},{"start":7829.19,"end":7838.64,"text":"我們公投法的不在籍投票法已經送到大院來了我們希望這個不在籍投票法能夠儘速的來進行審議的程序"},{"start":7841.758,"end":7845.761,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7869.178,"end":7878.513,"text":"我們第一步先跨出去,請委員能夠多多支持,謝謝。好,謝謝。我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":8277.369,"end":8280.632,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請張宏祿委員張昭偉我請李主委請李主委"},{"start":8301.857,"end":8304.399,"text":"來,諸位,其實中選會應該是獨立機關吧?是的那我們中選會我們當然有選務跟選政兩方面吧?對不對?"},{"start":8315.247,"end":8340.316,"text":"選政的部分是由內政部來主管是啦是內政部主導但選政可能也是我們中選會也是多多少少要考量吧沒有問題我們跟內政部配合的很好對嘛所以我在這邊就是說這個中選會是獨立的機構不管啦這個分老或什麼其實中選會最重要的工作"},{"start":8340.976,"end":8368.166,"text":"就是把選舉辦好沒有瑕疵公平的一個選舉而已吧我相信這個主委你也是當過縣市的選委會的主委你也是有第一線的辦選舉的經驗所以我在這邊我先請教一個問題就是說如果公投這個把所有的案子"},{"start":8369.551,"end":8385.197,"text":"印在一張,你覺得好投嗎?這個從幾個面向來檢討。第一個就是說,我們選民的投票的習慣,過去幾十年來,大家就這樣,一張一案、一張一案,那你強強要把它蓋,蓋這十幾個案子在一張選票上面,的確在適應上可能會有問題,這是第一個。"},{"start":8395.261,"end":8399.786,"text":"二、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":8420.945,"end":8439.184,"text":"一張一張清楚明瞭,不會有發生混淆的狀況。如果是一整排十幾個案子,你現在到底在檢討一個案,沒人知道會死到什麼時候。所以這樣就引起投票開票過程的一個紛爭。再一個可能發生的現象,"},{"start":8440.265,"end":8447.33,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":8469.784,"end":8485.659,"text":"但是在人工開票的情況之下像澳洲他就是一個案子一張票清楚明瞭那也沒有發生說什麼這個這個這個速度要拖很久這樣子的問題所以我們還是希望大院能夠支持現有的辦法"},{"start":8487.159,"end":8510.141,"text":"我再請教主委就以你舉美國的例子像美國的公民投票美國人家是可以預先投票的預先投票他有去投票票所嗎所以這個就是所謂分流的方式之一不是我先請教主委我預先投票的人他需要去投票所領票在投票所當場去投票嗎"},{"start":8510.902,"end":8518.368,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":8540.186,"end":8550.612,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":8566.3,"end":8566.881,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":8584.602,"end":8607.571,"text":"所以在這個相關分流的配套裡面有一個辦法就是限制公投票的案數了成案數那這一點也是應該要予以重視這個是另外一個議題我們先講技術性我們的技術性我們明明就可以看得出來有這麼大的問題這個是給第一線在投開票所的同仁"},{"start":8608.311,"end":8633.93,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等"},{"start":8637.233,"end":8638.494,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":8654.721,"end":8656.103,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":8674.484,"end":8689.838,"text":"對,就是說有一些這個選務上可能的疏漏的地方其實最重要的就是說我們都能夠當場有一個double check能夠發現及時發現及時更正那如果說這個更正的效率沒有提的很高的話就會耽誤到我們整個選舉的時程"},{"start":8691.414,"end":8693.715,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":8710.804,"end":8735.4,"text":"選票物質開票的物質的情況會發生但你同樣的你不管你是你如果公投跟大選在一起我跟你講選務人員的壓力更大對不對那他如何去精確的計票我覺得是一個很大的問題而且現場有任何一個民眾你要公開那種票他如果提出異議提出有問題我們要把處理"},{"start":8736.889,"end":8738.65,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":8764.95,"end":8788.864,"text":"所以我覺得有幾個像這一些問題的話主委你們應該把它整理出來我們在討論法條的時候其實你要讓所有的參與討論的委員知道有哪些不是說我們不要去做是有哪些目前實際上的狀況其實是很難處理的這個我覺得你要讓所有委員知道我們會加強說明謝謝委員"},{"start":8798.106,"end":8800.748,"text":"接下來請王美惠委員主席,我們這裡主委好,請你主委主委,你好"},{"start":8820.202,"end":8821.803,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":8839.281,"end":8859.482,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草"},{"start":8860.143,"end":8864.367,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":8882.97,"end":8892.782,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":8898.871,"end":8904.297,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":8921.129,"end":8942.693,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法"},{"start":8949.892,"end":8953.635,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":8969.855,"end":8971.376,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":8986.465,"end":8990.087,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":9010.999,"end":9011.68,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":9017.951,"end":9043.119,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":9046.704,"end":9047.785,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":9059.5,"end":9061.501,"text":"三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":9083.712,"end":9093.781,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":9108.959,"end":9110.521,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":9121.089,"end":9144.075,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":9149.411,"end":9158.558,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":9178.172,"end":9180.174,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":9193.234,"end":9194.695,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":9213.442,"end":9214.063,"text":"三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":9230.382,"end":9234.244,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9259.736,"end":9260.677,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9276.872,"end":9279.173,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員"},{"start":9309.5,"end":9313.004,"text":"好謝謝接下來請李博毅委員請李主委請李主委"},{"start":9331.078,"end":9350.125,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案"},{"start":9358.735,"end":9364.221,"text":"尤其2018年以後越來越難找。從過去資格限制一直放寬然後到後來我們相關的這個包含這個車馬費會加會加一些車馬費等等的為什麼原本很多包含公務人員包含"},{"start":9380.457,"end":9405.1,"text":"教職人員他們會來參加越來越不參加的原因當然我們我覺得建議中選會也應該要把他歸納出來那所以我要一樣我超商要並聘請店員我要聘請臨時工那你給我的order原本原本是這樣子這樣的薪水你現在要多做這麼多事情再加上社會責任的話我是找不到人的"},{"start":9405.96,"end":9423.447,"text":"這個就是我又要你又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草然後我又要你加很多這個業務在你身上又要加很多責任在你身上這個其實就是我們今天也在討論的到底這個選票上面一次要印多個問題之後"},{"start":9425.878,"end":9453.327,"text":"這個唱票人員的壓力拿出來是有多大?跟一張一張選票一張一張公投的題目內容都是相關的。主委,你是不是要表達這個?是的,我們每次的選舉都會去讀到工作人員請不上的困難,都是必須要一直盯,盯到最後地方政府出面,協助我們才勉強可以應付過去。"},{"start":9455.248,"end":9456.87,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":9471.491,"end":9483.114,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9498.482,"end":9519.681,"text":"主委先問一些比較實際的問題相關的選務人員場地要增加多少你有沒有評估過如果要綁在一起大家馬上想到的就是2018噩夢重演很多人不敢來擔任我們的選務工作人員所以這是一個問題量大人遭不到那絕對是一場大災難"},{"start":9520.462,"end":9539.656,"text":"對阿其他在野黨的委員說阿你人數要增加阿你可能場地要增加阿你中選要增加問題是你找不到人找不到人場地也不好找我們場地在2018到2024年全國增加差不多2000個投開票所"},{"start":9540.236,"end":9543.838,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具"},{"start":9567.625,"end":9595.546,"text":"跟大選脫鉤,這個效力目前是兩年,那今天有委員提出來說要四年,我覺得這大家可以探討啦,不是說當初的過去那2021年,什麼只有多少人出來投票,我相信台灣對於這一些民主的過程跟結果接受度也都是蠻高的。我是覺得2021年的這個公投大選的公投案沒有通過,這個就是代表一個謎語,"},{"start":9598.861,"end":9622.288,"text":"這幾年以來,客觀的環境、客觀的條件並沒有什麼重大的變革。所以說當前期的這個決定,我相信它存在的理由還是持續的。我相信更大的理由是人民已經習慣認為我這一張投票投下去就是四年。"},{"start":9622.628,"end":9640.013,"text":"三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「"},{"start":9654.602,"end":9681.684,"text":"同時我也會放信用卡。為什麼我今天要拿出來?吳秉瑞委員的公投法第21條的提案,他雖然他已經測案,但是我還來說明一下,為什麼他的公投法裡面說明公投連署需要看身份,需要身份證的發證日,身份證我們會被直接寫。"},{"start":9683.086,"end":9703.177,"text":"我們要看發證日我們一定是會拿出來大部分的人都一樣會拿出來看一下我的發證日是106年7月3號我填下來我填一次我不會背起來我們現在在線上刷卡也會遇到一個問題我們的手機都已經把我們信用卡都記好了但是很煩啊"},{"start":9704.608,"end":9706.79,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":9720.945,"end":9735.445,"text":"不是要你引印信用卡給他你會怕信用卡給他會有問題但是這個程序只是加嚴你當初你要刷這一筆費用的這個謹慎度也就跟吳秉瑞委員的提案一樣"},{"start":9736.306,"end":9759.264,"text":"要你把身份證拿出來看一下填寫避免死亡連署避免大量的拿黨工的拿黨工或拿什麼黨員的名冊來亂抄抄到一些死亡連署書來所以我想用這個例子來跟選委會也跟國人說明是不一樣的東西"},{"start":9760.345,"end":9787.258,"text":"身份證引印連署以及看一下身份證的發證日期就跟你信用卡一樣只是比較嚴謹避免這些死亡連署不要把它混為一談在這邊也幫吳秉瑞委員做提案的原意雖然他已經撤案了我還是在這邊說明主委謝謝你今天的辛苦提醒主委"},{"start":9788.154,"end":9809.578,"text":"未來選務人員的這些招募所遇到的這些問題所真的如果萬一有公投綁大選的話大概需要增加多少人力大概需要增加多少場地臺灣有沒有辦法這樣負荷這個請中選會都要提出我們誠懇的呼籲千萬不要再走回頭路了謝謝好"},{"start":9816.226,"end":9816.526,"text":"接下來請黃婕委員。"},{"start":9838.971,"end":9858.802,"text":"首先我還是要強調一下因為公投法是直接民權還權於民的一個很重要的根據所以我相信在場沒有一個委員是不支持公投法的施行那大家希望的是公投法既然要修就是越修越好絕對不能走回頭路把它修惡我相信這是一個很基本的立場"},{"start":9859.722,"end":9872.77,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具公民"},{"start":9888.459,"end":9892.201,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9908.249,"end":9909.01,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":9924.478,"end":9940.8,"text":"如果我剛剛沒有聽錯的話賴士葆委員有講這個所謂的辭職是不包括總統副總統這個我剛剛好像有聽到這樣子那即使是一般行政機關的首長的話所謂的辭職這是一個政治的責任"},{"start":9941.821,"end":9955.741,"text":"政治責任應該政治去解決而不宜在法律裡面去做規定因為你在法律裡面做規定的話也無從執行這一點也請大便的委員能夠審慎的來加以討論"},{"start":9957.944,"end":9964.748,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":9986.001,"end":9989.023,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":10009.594,"end":10017.119,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正"},{"start":10034.87,"end":10051.687,"text":"那我不知道主委你有沒有看過我們在2018那一次到底有沒有比較省錢因為就那一份報告裡面其實有寫到2018年如果我們十案的公投分開花17億結果2018年公投綁大水花多少錢你知道嗎主委你知道嗎"},{"start":10056.894,"end":10062.076,"text":"十七億,也就是說公投綁大選並沒有比較省錢。所以這是一個迷思並不在這個他們以為的優點裡面。再來公投綁大選有比較省時間嗎?大家還記得2018年那時候大家排隊排到幾點嗎?半夜三點半。"},{"start":10080.686,"end":10082.447,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":10097.575,"end":10100.118,"text":"三億多的美金說我們要來解決大排長龍的問題可是直到現在美國選務上還是面臨大排長龍的問題所以這個都是世界各國正要面對的結果我們還徒增自己的麻煩要讓這個大排長龍的問題持續下去"},{"start":10114.072,"end":10135.63,"text":"所以我認為這是一個非常需要借鏡的甚至在世界各國還有因此而邊投票邊開票的問題產生這個也是18年我們要檢討包括其實世界各國上美國德國加拿大一樣都是有遇到邊投票跟邊開票的問題澳洲也是那甚至我舉一個非常非常難過的例子在2019年的印尼"},{"start":10135.99,"end":10158.867,"text":"他們當時也是因為他們有一個憲法法庭強制要總統綁國會共同來選舉結果造成什麼?他們有300多個選務人員因此過勞死這是一個非常極端但是我們必須要引以為戒的例子我們真的不需要說因為硬是要公投綁大選造成選務人員過多的負擔我相信所有家裡身邊有人當過選務人員都知道當天有多辛苦"},{"start":10162.95,"end":10166.914,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":10184.773,"end":10205.306,"text":"公投的議題的重要性遠大於就是是不是有綁在一起。我舉個例子他們有一個要不要加入歐盟的投票率是78%他們要不要加入聯合國的投票率這些都是公投案58%但是他們平常選舉的投票率平均大概只有45%"},{"start":10206.747,"end":10223.841,"text":"也就是說單獨一個公投案的投票率可能遠高於選舉的投票率這個是在分開的情況下所以有說一定要公投綁大選才能提高投票率嗎我相信並不是如此那這個都是在世界各國看到的例子所以我認為啦就2018年的經驗"},{"start":10227.223,"end":10248.662,"text":"顯然公投綁大選只會製造更多的缺點更多的問題缺點更多了但是我們以為的優點並沒有增加所以我希望在這邊表達我的立場那是不是最後也請我們主委來表達一下到底對於公投綁大選你們選務改革上能做到多少然後有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":10250.083,"end":10250.403,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":10266.137,"end":10284.308,"text":"遠遠超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的量所以選務的分流變成是選務改革裡面非常重要的點改革的分流最重要的一個做法就是2019年公投法的修正把選舉跟公投徹底的脫鉤了"},{"start":10285.689,"end":10312.402,"text":"另外在我們選務的部門的改革從這個選務硬體的設施的改進到軟體管理的這個維護都有了很長足的一個進步所以從2020、2021、2022到2024歷次的選舉以及公投都進行相當的順利所以這個改革的方向是已經看到他的成果了我們認為千萬不要再走回頭路"},{"start":10312.691,"end":10314.352,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員徐毓珍委員"},{"start":10355.388,"end":10356.19,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":10364.946,"end":10387.342,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想剛剛很多委員都在請教您就是有關公投法到底要不要綁大選而引起的一些優缺點當然現在講到公投法早上羅智強委員也特別提到最新的一份民調有66.6%的人就將近三分之二"},{"start":10387.802,"end":10392.025,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":10407.637,"end":10409.259,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":10420.717,"end":10439.614,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強"},{"start":10447,"end":10456.224,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10477.882,"end":10496.66,"text":"剛剛委員提到幾個問題我大概簡單的再跟委員做個說明第一個其實非常重要的委員提到了公投綁大選比較能夠充分的表現民意這一點非常重要怎麼樣選制的安排才能夠讓我們的選民能夠充分的表達他的"},{"start":10497.461,"end":10504.286,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10519.138,"end":10520.581,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員"},{"start":10529.383,"end":10535.664,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10559.089,"end":10565.253,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10577.441,"end":10578.042,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":10592.415,"end":10593.196,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10610.752,"end":10612.234,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":10625.789,"end":10631.312,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10650.362,"end":10655.364,"text":"三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10672.352,"end":10685.155,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等"},{"start":10701.758,"end":10713.426,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19"},{"start":10730.077,"end":10733.858,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10754.366,"end":10758.527,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10781.352,"end":10798.519,"text":"全世界我沒有看到哪一個國家公投綁大選而對於量沒有做分流的配套沒有看到任何一個國家我說要做分流的配套沒有說不要所以剛剛有跟主委建議既然可以事前規劃的我們就做好這樣子"},{"start":10799.159,"end":10828.419,"text":"另外我再跟主委說明一下因為其實剛剛也特別提到說要充分展現民意就是讓他們可以把真正的表達民意就是讓他們可以來投票可是我給您看一個數據就是說我們花蓮、台東跟離島的居民因為他們這個要長途跋涉才能到達這個投開票所所以我們可以看到2018年的十項公投跟2021年的四大公投你看一下這個地區的投票率是多少"},{"start":10829.279,"end":10830.6,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":10847.014,"end":10873.403,"text":"都是只有2018的一半左右而已。尤其你看像不管是臺東、花蓮、澎湖、金門、連江這個就可以看得出來就是說我們在花東還有離島還有一些原住民的一些不管是這個學生勞工他們在如果在北部工作或在北部就學他們要耗費更多的時間跟更多的車費才能夠返鄉投票。投票率的高低跟議題的設定是有密切的關係"},{"start":10874.583,"end":10875.283,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":10894.753,"end":10912.696,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":10924.378,"end":10926.479,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":10941.446,"end":10944.727,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":10958.512,"end":10962.255,"text":"對於可能發生的問題,我們事先還是必須要做防範。接下來請黃建斌委員"},{"start":10990.084,"end":11012.831,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":11019.333,"end":11029.982,"text":"希望更加落實公投精神,保障中華民國、國民實現憲法保障、創製、複決的權益。今天國民黨委員提出公投法的學法有三個原因。第一、減少勞民傷財。"},{"start":11038.849,"end":11039.589,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":11063.453,"end":11090.287,"text":"全屋成本大概花5億,每增加一個案子又要增加1億。如果比較我們2018年10個公投案跟2021年4個公投案的花費,我們2018年那個花費比2021年的省了1.54億,就是說有併公投跟沒有併公投差了1.54億,因此公投併大選絕對是可以節省我們政府的支付,數據上來看是可以減少我們的基準,也可以省我們人民的這大數的錢,"},{"start":11094.25,"end":11112.877,"text":"第二、提升投票率,促進公民參與。公民投票的意思就是希望讓全中華民國公民有權利可以直接對重大的議題和政策來表達意見,讓執政者能夠謙虛地聆聽人民的聲音。"},{"start":11114.073,"end":11130.379,"text":"因此讓更多人願意來參與公投,彰顯我們公投的精神,這是公民投票最主要的意義。從歷年來的公投投票來看,從2004年到現在的5次,投票率是以2018年公投並大選那次最高55%。"},{"start":11135.041,"end":11153.308,"text":"但民進黨修法之後公投跟大選脫鉤之後2021年的公投只剩下41%甚至許多縣市都創下新低這代表民進黨當年修法的結果是降低以結果來看是降低公民參與當然要很多的因素在我想這樣子讓公投沒有辦法彰顯公民意志的公投"},{"start":11154.856,"end":11165.957,"text":"就連我們之前民進黨的前副總統李萱女士也提過如果公投不能跟總統一起來舉行那就不可能有這麼多人願意去投票我希望民進黨未來不要打著民主背叛民主"},{"start":11166.857,"end":11172.562,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11191.718,"end":11192.379,"text":"三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具"},{"start":11218.735,"end":11237.996,"text":"公投是必須要落實民意跟政治責任。」我想這今天也很多談到這一塊就是說公投結果是我們政府整個施政方針的民意的展現嘛這不好了我們就要改我想這才是落實民意跟政治責任但我們現在的公投法對於實現公投內容的處置並不完善"},{"start":11239.124,"end":11241.306,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":11260.472,"end":11284.59,"text":"我想另外除了今天針對的這個公務法修法以外,我們現在還要在這裡提案發動的鄉親,來讓主委表達我們的心聲。剛剛徐理政委員提到那個數據,我們中選會的資料裡面,在2024年的總統大選裡面,投票率最低的前三名的縣市都在離島,就是金門、澎湖跟馬祖。那本島最低的地方就在台東縣。"},{"start":11285.951,"end":11287.852,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":11303.422,"end":11315.594,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":11328.866,"end":11329.767,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":11354.523,"end":11375.801,"text":"為什麼會這樣子是因為其實我們真的希望能夠做到票票等值這句話在投票結果絕對沒有錯可是因為不同縣市不同環境的選民來說每一次的投票所要負擔的成本都不一樣所以這邊我也要呼籲減少成本促進投票才能夠守護我們人民每一張勝勝的選票在這邊也要呼籲我們的"},{"start":11378.882,"end":11384.567,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11405.985,"end":11406.785,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":11426.655,"end":11431.717,"text":"第二、投票率問題公投的投票率最主要影響因素公投議題設定"},{"start":11443.041,"end":11457.091,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文"},{"start":11472.122,"end":11498.152,"text":"但是我更要舉出一個例子就是我們根據公民投票法在2021年公投綁大選的公民投票結果是無過這個無過是一個不爭的事實是一個不爭的事實那這個問題也值得大家來作為一個參考所以我們還是要回到那個時間的關係不要用在其他地方就是說針對我們的在一起投票這件事主委你的立場"},{"start":11498.772,"end":11502.035,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":11522.248,"end":11523.949,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":11553.248,"end":11564.333,"text":"這個公民投票的不在籍投票法希望能夠盡快的通過。好,謝謝主委先打訊息。好,謝謝黃建斌委員。"},{"start":11582.814,"end":11594.874,"text":"接下來我們請許昭緯質詢。好,謝謝主席,有請李主委。我們請李主委。"},{"start":11604.704,"end":11624.257,"text":"本席聽到你回答很多委員的這個內容那有幾點我一定要在這邊提出來您在報告裡面還有答詢的時候一直強調這個公投榜大選會有人與事的混淆你還特別講了對模糊焦點"},{"start":11628.18,"end":11649.117,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等"},{"start":11657.463,"end":11664.168,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":11684.179,"end":11699.193,"text":"選民他就是投票不管投人投事你只要清楚明瞭他也清楚知道那讓他來選擇就對了這第一個第二個剛剛你也有答詢的時候有提到"},{"start":11700.034,"end":11715.139,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正"},{"start":11728.223,"end":11730.344,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11747.671,"end":11761.178,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11775.686,"end":11790.522,"text":"對他來說他的成本也低,包含時間成本。再來包含你大家一直提到2018年那一次的選舉就是個大災難。這個大災難其實很多民眾當年很多民眾也都反映"},{"start":11791.837,"end":11805.008,"text":"他大概對一個投票你要他花20分鐘30分鐘對他來說就很多了你要他排一個半小時甚至兩小時兩個半小時他根本沒辦法所以2018年的這個選舉是因為選務沒有做好"},{"start":11809.272,"end":11810.753,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":11830.49,"end":11837.154,"text":"全民參與度高的核心價值丟掉了。你過去只要脫鉤,他的投票率都不到50%都沒有過半。你又要講議題,沒有,沒有議題的設定。你公投綁大選不管什麼議題,"},{"start":11853.385,"end":11854.246,"text":"全民參與度高。民眾希望便利。"},{"start":11869.628,"end":11872.11,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":11892.762,"end":11919.379,"text":"那就是中選會的選務沒有做好我們要中選會做什麼你看喔本席本來覺得選務選政要合一你們覺得沒關係跟內政部溝通良好選務選政分開那選務就是你中選會最大最大的這個工作目標你的工作目標就是要把整個選務做好那過去的災難你就要想辦法避免2018以前有十個公投案合併選舉舉行沒有發生選務的問題"},{"start":11922.594,"end":11944.993,"text":"只有2018發生沒有所以現在我們就是公投綁大選的這種情況他也是可以避免這種龐大或是投票要排很久的情況問題就出在你可以事先找好多一些的投開票地點"},{"start":11946.074,"end":11970.839,"text":"還有選務人員你選務人員你也可以安排那開票的時候這個開票的這個次序把它安排好這個最重要就是大家都覺得從這個方向那你們這一個點你就是不不願意從這個角度來思考有錯所以從2020、2022、2024都辦得很好"},{"start":11974.62,"end":11975.28,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":11989.022,"end":11990.443,"text":"全國三十幾萬選務人員共同心聲,他們碰到的困難,我有責任要講出來。」"},{"start":12009.277,"end":12029.775,"text":"對這也是本席接下來問你的你剛剛本席聽到你說哇你代表全國選務人員所以全國選務人員都跟你反映嗎有有我們開過集市檢討會那就是2018年因為規劃不周所以2018年中選會就被監察院糾正了嘛所以你們的錯誤造成選務人員的這個"},{"start":12032.287,"end":12040.91,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12052.881,"end":12063.023,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12080.387,"end":12082.169,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":12088.845,"end":12112.592,"text":"現在這個如果我們委員會大家多數決通過或者是我們立法院多數決通過我們要請主委你還是要帶領整個中選會天下無難事只怕有心人我就怕民視有心人所以天下無難事下一句話你從小到大你知道的是什麼"},{"start":12113.919,"end":12116.401,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":12126.203,"end":12143.616,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":12152.762,"end":12157.827,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":12176.326,"end":12188.132,"text":"我們明知的問題他也看得出解決方案但是不做就是不做所以天下無難事只要肯放棄我們不希望這個是我們行政官員從2020、2021、2022、2024不斷的改進而且效果非常的良好舉世都給我們肯定"},{"start":12197.165,"end":12205.97,"text":"但是都沒有超過50%全民的參與度,所以現在你們又要淹割民眾公投的權利嗎?滿意度達到85%了你那個滿意度85%是你自己說的我們每一次選後都會做民調"},{"start":12213.288,"end":12231.218,"text":"但是你現在民眾參與度不到50%你沒有得到過半民眾出來表達這個是很重要的問題你核心的價值不要丟掉你自己說的核心價值就是要越多人參與而且"},{"start":12232.359,"end":12234.841,"text":"本席覺得過50%還不夠,到60%。」本席覺得過50%還不夠,到60%。"},{"start":12259.315,"end":12282.523,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12291.158,"end":12310.653,"text":"二、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":12320.319,"end":12323.182,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":12327.967,"end":12352.729,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草案"},{"start":12353.53,"end":12355.512,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":12369.622,"end":12371.583,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":12389.807,"end":12391.348,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等21人擬具"},{"start":12406.278,"end":12417.366,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12431.656,"end":12453.636,"text":"投票人員人數,我們加強選務投票動線的一個管理跟規劃。所以有好過沒,好過很顯著。經過2020年總統立委選舉,2021四大公投,2022就是地方選舉,2024再一次的總統立委的選舉,我們的選務都相當的順利,得到舉世大家的肯定了。"},{"start":12454.196,"end":12455.257,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":12484.536,"end":12491.899,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12510.225,"end":12513.69,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":12527.368,"end":12547.003,"text":"不在籍投票在選舉的部分的確是牽涉到非常複雜的因素所以我們是希望能夠逐步的來推動就是對書的公道優先於對人的選舉那就這個不在籍投票諸多的方式裡面我們又是從移轉投票來先開始"},{"start":12547.663,"end":12561.932,"text":"所以公民投票法的公民投票的這個不在籍投票他的移轉投票啊這個辦法已經這個草案已經提到貴大院了我們希望這個這個法律案能夠盡快的來通過"},{"start":12562.742,"end":12563.482,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":12592.257,"end":12618.784,"text":"接下來請劉許庭委員謝謝主席李主委有請我們等一下投影片請李主委主委你剛剛講天下無難事比登天還難這是你自己發明的金句"},{"start":12620.111,"end":12625.394,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12647.714,"end":12652.26,"text":"今天任何事情公投決定之後執行的人就是政治人物嗎?那這件事情同一時間討論怎麼會不行呢?"},{"start":12661.789,"end":12680.603,"text":"透過公投綁大選讓事情跟人一起投票一起決定不只是這件事情會因為變成選舉的議題主軸大家要把話講清楚他反而會產生更強的拘束力我舉一個例子2018年大部分人討論的是同婚公投討論的是以和養綠可是中間有非常重要的公投叫反空污公投"},{"start":12681.443,"end":12703.698,"text":"反空公投高票通過,給了當初同時選舉的台中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣,所以她到現在為止都非常非常堅持這個中火的退場。這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處,不只是在一件事情的態度上民意做得清楚的指示,同時透過選舉的時候給所有政治人物很強的拘束力,這才叫民主不是嗎?"},{"start":12704.85,"end":12727.376,"text":"我們是希望在選舉的時候,投票的時候,選民對於他要投票的事項,他的選擇的對象,都有很清楚的認知。如果人跟事同時來做決定的話,會失焦。這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係。反空公投大家做了明確的表示,後來你獨立舉行,大家也做了明確的表示。所以你這個邏輯是不通的。人跟事同時討論,跟議題有沒有釐清。"},{"start":12729.377,"end":12733.879,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。"},{"start":12756.51,"end":12771.266,"text":"所以我這第一個觀念錯誤我是希望總統會主委三思而後行當然是合併舉行他的效力比較強嘛不只是事情有明確的結果對於這些操作的政治人員因為同時的選舉他有更強的拘束力所以這從民主的意義來講選舉那種非常複雜的攻防我想議員委員都應該都是親身體會的"},{"start":12776.638,"end":12804.722,"text":"就是因為攻防很複雜才要把話講清楚我告訴你現在的狀況這幾屆的選舉投票率四大公投的投票率很低是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論啊過不了啦單獨舉行投票率很低啦只有無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞啊該表態的題目我不表態啊反正它是獨立選舉大家要投埋在土裡過一下就算了我們不希望這樣的事發生啊既然要有重大議題要公投就跟選舉一起通通表態這才是民主吧"},{"start":12805.492,"end":12823.786,"text":"主委這是我講的是民主的精神我們公投的結果有沒有辦法會順利的執行很多時候加上選舉的掛鉤它的強度才會高民意的執行才會落實這第一個第二個你剛剛談選務我們就好好來談一談選務這個在2018年的投票亂象之後中選會你剛剛也講很多嘛對不對你做了很多的調整包含檢討會議包含"},{"start":12825.727,"end":12848.588,"text":"條整每一投票數的選舉人數,也就是所謂的偵測投票所,對不對?你還改善了流程,還加強了教育訓練,這些事你都有做,對不對?是。你也講成效斐然,對不對?舉世讚美,對不對?沒有錯。沒有錯,對不對?好啊,在這六項啊,當初啊,2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面,它是有強度的分別的。前五項叫技術問題,第六項叫不得已而為之啊。"},{"start":12849.309,"end":12874.923,"text":"如果我的技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候我才來去思考說我要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流可是你到最後值錢的結果是什麼你吃自助餐啦前面宣示說你都做得很好然後我還是要脫鉤那不是很奇怪嗎你如果前五項都做得很好我們願意給中學會肯定但既然前五項做得很好誰跟你講不能綁大選搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊不是嗎要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效對不對"},{"start":12875.723,"end":12877.624,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員"},{"start":12900.179,"end":12911.812,"text":"2018是十案的公投,難保哪一次的這個公投如果合併的話,它會更增加你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事嗎?這些事情難道不能用技術的方式來解決嗎?可以"},{"start":12915.896,"end":12919.378,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":12941.67,"end":12969.051,"text":"所以你不要自己選擇性的在處理這件事情天下無難事後面是只怕有心人不是比登天還難何況你這些都做了以前在修正這些之前投票率只要超過七成基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮但主委2020的投票率空前的高2024的投票率其實也不低對不對有沒有排隊其實沒有所以表示你前五項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能那誰跟你講不能綁大選"},{"start":12969.952,"end":12970.533,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":12986.403,"end":13012.973,"text":"其實根據這個東西我們做過委託過這個民間來做深入的一個研究那這個問題是絕對無法避免就是說這個選務的量達到一定的程度是已經超過我們選務機關所能夠承載那這個問題要去面對你每次都找一小撮人然後就說我們經過了審慎的研究他都不行沒有一小撮福利黨那請問你要用什麼樣的心態來面對六成六的民意調查認為他應該公投黨大選"},{"start":13015.492,"end":13029.351,"text":"請問你要用什麼心態來面對我個人我們是民意代表我當然覺得民意比較大我們也不能無視於2021年公投綁大選被否決這個不爭的事你講得真好我真的想跟你講這件事情你們民進黨最喜歡吃自助餐來公投的效率是幾年"},{"start":13031.636,"end":13032.457,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":13048.018,"end":13048.298,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":13069.195,"end":13092.387,"text":"我還有一個補充說明就是說2021年這個選舉這個投票的結果出來之後到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的一個改變你講這話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用啊門檻很高他也不執行啊我告訴你當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候"},{"start":13093.507,"end":13094.407,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":13113.432,"end":13134.869,"text":"這個今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候你就用技術去克服嘛你要增加再增加人力再增加設備或者是開票分流都可以討論但你沒有窮盡這些做法之前你不要講說要脫鉤嘛沒有道理的事情啦好不好反正待會到時候法條還會再審查啦希望主委到時候做好準備不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應了謝謝好謝謝梁徐廷委員我們接下來請羅智強委員"},{"start":13145.475,"end":13147.556,"text":"有請主委請禮主委主委你剛剛在詢問說公投不能併大選其中原因之一是四個人不可以混在一起投"},{"start":13164.619,"end":13185.728,"text":"四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":13194.466,"end":13206.41,"text":"選台北市長選台中市長選桃園市長選的是市還是人選舉的這個工房選的是市還是人選的是市還是人有些問題有些問題簡單到你不敢回答叫心虛選的叫人我現在想請問你下一個問題當初提出18歲公民修憲要求併大選的就是民進黨吧"},{"start":13225.166,"end":13227.046,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":13247.85,"end":13250.074,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":13261.428,"end":13279.99,"text":"今天到了2022年民進黨又突然復活了哎呀修憲公投這是事因為為了提高投票率然後我要跟所謂的地方選舉綁在一起又可以了今天可以明天不可以今天不可以明天可以就是你今天"},{"start":13280.41,"end":13301.958,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五"},{"start":13310.035,"end":13312.376,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13334.107,"end":13335.409,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":13350.987,"end":13367.692,"text":"你怪罪我們在2018沒有做好規劃、沒有做好因應,我都承認。事後我們有深入的檢討,包括大院同意的條例修正法,其中一項是檢討之後所提出的具體文有章的承認。"},{"start":13370.801,"end":13396.69,"text":"這是賴清德總統賞你的耳光嗎?你能不承認嗎?這句話不是羅智強講的。中選會事前未能規劃周延,事後未能有效因應並排除,造成國人不便。陳英成主委已經請辭負責,中選會請你記取教訓,聽取社會各界意見,此次選務工作執行修法法規面徹底檢討,"},{"start":13398.43,"end":13411.378,"text":"競速修法中選會研擬未來公投產電子投票並非網路投票的可能性也請中選會、國發會、相關部會一起來協助。我跟你講我最佩服的中選會是什麼?我們賴清德就跟你講你事前規劃不好"},{"start":13415.8,"end":13433.505,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正"},{"start":13444.348,"end":13445.128,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":13462.635,"end":13475.619,"text":"總統大選也很辛苦啦,辦總統大選也非常辛苦啊。早上投票到下午欸,開票開到晚上欸,很辛苦啊。這麼辛苦的事情,這樣我可以建議啦,總統大選廢掉,或者40年辦一次,讓賴清德一直當下去好不好啊。要不要給我掌聲鼓勵一下,我擁戴賴清德大總統當40年總統,因為辦選舉太麻煩了啦。"},{"start":13488.922,"end":13489.202,"text":"中選會事前未能規劃周延"},{"start":13508.084,"end":13512.366,"text":"事證未能有效因應加以排除。這是賴清德總統賞給你李敬勇的耳光你承認也沒有用結果你的臉不痛你臉不痛啊你臉痛不痛"},{"start":13523.991,"end":13534.438,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":13554.77,"end":13572.762,"text":"二十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":13580.865,"end":13591.533,"text":"公投沒有通過就是因為有一個門檻叫25%門檻,沒錯吧?同樣選舉齁,沒有選上就怪選票低。欸,主委我問你是非問題齁,你到現在為止你就跟我東扯西扯。法律規定說有15%門檻嘛,是不是嘛?不是你告訴我啊?是是。謝不謝你啊?是的是的。好,那我想請教,因為他是沒有達到25%門檻,這就是民進黨修惡公投法帶來的結果。"},{"start":13609.686,"end":13621.512,"text":"這個惡果啊導致2023年公投年你這個惡果導致什麼第一個投票率下降所以沒有一個公投投票來來來我問題問完你不要在我在講話在問問題的時候插嘴好不好我先把我的問題問完你聽完再回答我告訴你啊這就是"},{"start":13634.434,"end":13661.741,"text":"民進黨修了公投法導致今天在2021年的公投投票率下降沒有辦法達到25%的門檻不要忘了當年民進黨主張公投併大選是因為認為說公投大選拆開之後投票率過低就沒有公投會過了而後面導致更嚴重的後果因為大家知道投票率會太低公投不會過請問你2023年剩下多少件公投提案通過"},{"start":13664.859,"end":13665.399,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":13673.032,"end":13690.467,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正"},{"start":13701.874,"end":13725.913,"text":"今天提案人就是預言到偉大的李靖勇在這邊會把責任推給提案人然後接下來呢接下來發現提案也不會過就沒有人提案了這就是民進黨的陽謀民進黨就用這種方式把公投閹割掉我告訴你 基友你的邏輯很簡單啦我直接講給你聽啦 你的邏輯很簡單啦你邏輯什麼今天齁"},{"start":13731.641,"end":13732.742,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":13749.239,"end":13777.238,"text":"當你公投大選把公投砍掉一隻腳你回頭跟我講說你看嘛2021年沒過嘛他是腳被砍斷才站不起來的當在2018年跟以前的公投如果兩隻腳是都還在的時候他是站得起來的你不要再插我的話謝謝你齁感謝啦拜託你我知道你官威很大啦你了不起啦我不敢不敢欸沒有你敢得很我來接受質詢你敢得很第二個"},{"start":13778.527,"end":13779.848,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":13797.662,"end":13824.87,"text":"你又推給民進黨立委啊?你又推給民進黨立委啊?立法院誰多數?立法院誰多數?立法院誰多數?我不管誰通過。你不管誰通過誰多數對不對?立法院通過。真言說笑話的能力李金勇你第一名立法院民進黨多數暴力通過幹掉蔡同榮一輩子的理想今天你站在這邊我告訴你我會佩服你我佩服你啊我按照立法院通過的法律來支持你你今天你對得起蔡同榮我佩服你"},{"start":13825.834,"end":13827.876,"text":"二、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具"},{"start":13852.901,"end":13878.46,"text":"主管機關公告公民投票之結果期兩年內不得就同一事項重新提出。到現在過三年了我先不講第一個我不知道你是到底是法盲還是數學盲我先講法盲公投不通過當時的設計是認為他沒有到一個程度所以他的法律效果是不能就同一事項重提公投沒錯吧"},{"start":13880.954,"end":13881.435,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":13895.612,"end":13897.774,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":13920.233,"end":13938.298,"text":"明明寫三年你現在跟我講不可什麼意思明明寫兩年現在已經三年多了我跟你說不可啊我跟你溝通好累喔你把你前面的東西全部否定掉我這後面我到底要怎麼我到底哪一個相信李慶勇啊人跟事你現在也跟我翻來來沒關係來我要跟主委說啊現在你們接民進黨真的是我也是佩服"},{"start":13947.247,"end":13966.079,"text":"公投併大選,你也是民進黨議員曾經是啦,也是民進黨重要的大佬,對不對,沒錯吧?沒有那麼老,沒有那麼老。謝謝,對,你很年輕啦,希望年輕有智慧。我要跟你說一句話,今天公投併大選,最早提出來是哪個政黨,你怎麼會不知道吧?"},{"start":13969.4,"end":13982.369,"text":"我站在這個位置上我是超出黨派以外這個位置上就是一個可以把自己過去記憶全部斷光的委員難道不希望你是一個獨立超出黨派以外嗎我要跟你講的是你過去不是你就算是今天獨立超出黨派"},{"start":13986.872,"end":13995.315,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":14015.222,"end":14039.696,"text":"人跟事絕對不能混淆,你們這些人在亂,就你們這些人在亂,人跟事怎麼可以混淆?但我在2020,我大民進黨說人跟事可以混在一起,就可以混在一起啊。然後呢,公投並大選,公投並大選是不能到洪水猛瘦的啊,一定要支持的啊,陳其邁名言啊。結果民進黨2018輸了,公投就跟大選拆開來了。"},{"start":14041.004,"end":14041.505,"text":"三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":14052.489,"end":14075.315,"text":"把公投的一隻腳砍斷公投倒了2021年因為投票率過低沒有一樣公投過得了今天就有一個民進黨的官員在跟你講說哈哈哈哈跟你講嘛腳斷一隻站不起來你看嘛躺在那個地方躺不起來變成說今天拿這個藉口來跟我講說我們不可以再把公投併回大選更重要是什麼很抱歉啦人民沒有站在你們這一邊"},{"start":14079.346,"end":14107.582,"text":"今天昨天新國會智庫委託趨勢民調公司做出來的民調非常清楚66%的選民是主張公投並大選我想主委對你很好因為我們那個新國會還做了一個民調喔因為你一直講說是公投並大選造成選務的問題嘛所以就兩個選項開放讓民眾回答到底是中選會賴清德講的今天中選會做不好還是說今天是一個公投並大選"},{"start":14108.582,"end":14125.172,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等"},{"start":14136.923,"end":14141.547,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":14164.37,"end":14190.181,"text":"這就是今天的民進黨!謝謝!最近有一個討論民調的討論好像在講這個這次總統大選候選人的排名的問題那結果呢很多人在回頭一看當初的這個民調可能並不是那麼正確我想民調我們做參考但是民調不是唯一的標準"},{"start":14191.041,"end":14196.183,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":14218.609,"end":14218.929,"text":"中午不休息,我們繼續開會。」"},{"start":14248.288,"end":14249.431,"text":"審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":14259.332,"end":14277.706,"text":"公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬"},{"start":14287.747,"end":14295.688,"text":"恢復以前我們貴黨的貴黨說的要完全移民,請問這個主秘有什麼看法?"},{"start":14296.731,"end":14314.626,"text":"根委員報告那在今天我們的這個審查的報告裡面有提到那中選會是認為公投是對市的投票那選舉是對人的投票那基於避免民眾的這個混淆我們還是認為公投跟選舉應該合併來辦理分開來辦理"},{"start":14317.988,"end":14320.109,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":14343.343,"end":14362.75,"text":"變形現行的兩年一次大選的機制。而在這裡公投法是很重要,當這個省市領域管理的記憶。但是在我們內政國會會議中,我們想把這個公投跟大選透過領域,是在高層領域管理的行為。這個看法我比較好了解。主委、主任、主秘對這個看法怎樣?"},{"start":14370.314,"end":14396.301,"text":"根委員報告那我們中選會還是在重申基於辦理選務的立場我們還是認為公投跟選舉應該分別舉行那主要的原因還是在於我們選務有我們的這個量能那我們認為分開舉行的話包括我們選舉跟公投都比較能夠順遂辦理而且能夠真實的來反映民眾的一個投票的意願跟意志"},{"start":14396.601,"end":14410.386,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文�"},{"start":14425.071,"end":14425.652,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":14441.907,"end":14457.058,"text":"根委員報告,我們中選會是辦理選務的一個獨立機關,我們各種投票的辦理都是依照不管是選罷法或者是公投法所規定的程序還有規定來做進行。"},{"start":14458.354,"end":14462.496,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法〉案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具〈公民投票法〉案。"},{"start":14482.836,"end":14487.32,"text":"委員你好,謝謝你的帖文。委員長,我看你都瘦身了。主委,我們現在來討論一下,我這段時間在地方上經常聽到的事情,其實把我歡迎的人,這些人過去你們在婚姻做館長的時候,這些人也是都讓你都不錯,大家都接受到不錯。因為這個選舉法修正這個排黑條款,"},{"start":14510.46,"end":14513.504,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":14526.317,"end":14539.042,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正�"},{"start":14548.826,"end":14553.409,"text":"不清楚自己算是具有參選資格的問題,可說是全國性的一個通案,反而大到人想要參選的人都不是很肯定的。有一些人說:「我以前,我小時候沒有換衣服,那時候怎麼會反而有可能去卡到我們的選舉條款呢?」但是我現在心裡,"},{"start":14572.912,"end":14580.498,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14599.873,"end":14608.761,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19"},{"start":14628.257,"end":14635.1,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案"},{"start":14656.408,"end":14662.25,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":14683.059,"end":14683.5,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":14703.018,"end":14705.699,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":14724.264,"end":14726.547,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":14741.545,"end":14747.247,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14771.22,"end":14781.543,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修"},{"start":14801.069,"end":14804.673,"text":"三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":14821.511,"end":14836.582,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":14845.729,"end":14846.489,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14867.535,"end":14869.717,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":14884.591,"end":14893.254,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":14913.103,"end":14914.646,"text":"接下來請楊瓊瑩委員謝謝主席,楊瓊瑩發言,想邀請李主委請李主委"},{"start":14932.988,"end":14934.43,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":14950.991,"end":14951.952,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":14973.542,"end":14982.71,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":14995.781,"end":15008.544,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草"},{"start":15024.537,"end":15027.998,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15049.222,"end":15066.771,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":15068.092,"end":15073.493,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":15096.377,"end":15109.782,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":15119.707,"end":15138.505,"text":"可以如此嗎?如果一次民調就定生死的話,那我想大院也不要再舉辦什麼公廷會議。好!你強的這個對!我就告訴你一個數據請問!請問!如果用一個民調,我再用一個比例給你!再用一個!請教!投票率四成!"},{"start":15139.827,"end":15150.47,"text":"跟投票率六成哪一個比這樣能夠展現民意基礎?請教主委你來自民意的洗禮投票率四成跟投票率六成的結果是要跟議題的設定有很緊密的關係"},{"start":15158.672,"end":15177.386,"text":"有關於投票率影響到公投的結果,這一點我個人是比較無法理解。其實對公投的一個投票跟對選舉的投票意思大家都一樣一樣。我今天出來選舉選不中的時候就在外面說投票率太低了,所以我選不中。這個是不能夠得到支持的。"},{"start":15179.34,"end":15198.374,"text":"主委,你這個邏輯,你來自司法界,你來自民意代表洗禮,你現在擔任我們中選會的主委,你這麼說,我再給你一個數字。2021年12月18四大公投的投票,投票率只有4乘1,只有4乘1。2022年的時候,11月26日,18歲的公民權的這個復決,那麼投票率59%,將近6成。"},{"start":15206.698,"end":15208.224,"text":"所有的縣市首長"},{"start":15210.454,"end":15238.125,"text":"選舉幾乎平均值 平均值六成以上所以本席再一次的請教投票率四成跟投票率六成哪一個可以展現民意的基礎在我的看法不管是四成五成六成他是否成案是否通過都是根據法律的規定他的效果在我中選會看起來都是一樣的"},{"start":15240.367,"end":15241.188,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":15255.612,"end":15274.279,"text":"在公投法修法退回的時候,退回這個鐵籠。內政部說:「事與選民期待及意向並不相符。」跟你剛剛講的邏輯差不多。內政部又認為自己是代表民意嗎?你可以決定人民怎麼樣嗎?可以決定嗎?可以這麼說嗎?今天你是中選會的主委耶。"},{"start":15281.121,"end":15310.366,"text":"今天你是中選會的主委,如果你說我們可以好好的來討論,讓更多的民意基礎更堅固,這才是一個民主堅固啊!我們現在就是在討論啊!我們現在就是在討論啊!對啊!那所以我再一次請問,第三次請問,四成的投票跟六成的投票率,哪一個可以展現民意?在我的看法都是一樣的,按照法律的規定來定它的結果跟它的效率。"},{"start":15313.41,"end":15322.157,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":15331.857,"end":15342.279,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":15358.866,"end":15359.747,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":15377.923,"end":15400.694,"text":"這個四個字沒有人有辦法接受你在整個的過程當中你要怎麼樣去動作你要怎麼樣去制度這是人民要的不能因為選務紛亂而導致你要走回頭路我往前走啊現在是要回去綁在一起是走回頭路啊你再說一次你再說一次你再說一次說公投綁大選這兩個是走回頭路你再說一次是走回頭路吳姐"},{"start":15407.475,"end":15420.245,"text":"三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡"},{"start":15437.731,"end":15440.114,"text":"最新通過法律案 最新的名義"},{"start":15446.247,"end":15472.001,"text":"對,中選會是獨立機關單位,你必須要真正以民意為依歸,真正的還權於民,因為如果你如此的依執政黨的作為,變來變去,變來變去,對於我們的整個公投法用政治操作,這個是民眾沒有辦法接受的,這是民眾沒有辦法接受的。我告訴你,法院通過的法律來執行,並沒有變來變去。"},{"start":15473.761,"end":15494.707,"text":"並沒有變來變去你是議院大院大院在審查的時候完全執政的情形是如此是一個A一個B變來變去所以在這樣的情況之下你中選會是執行單位你更應該要評估相關的議題跟相關的名義對不對依據法律來獨立執行"},{"start":15495.558,"end":15496.84,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":15510.558,"end":15531.589,"text":"你剛才告訴我你願意好好的去思考我希望能夠聽到你的思考到底是怎麼樣的還權於民所以我要講一句話真正來阻礙我們整個公民神議精神這個是我們在民主的途徑上面是一定會被唾棄的大家都不能接受了"},{"start":15531.829,"end":15532.649,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":15547.597,"end":15548.818,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":15562.614,"end":15573.002,"text":"一次民調經常掛在嘴邊,但是對於曾經透過公民投票決定……請你告訴我,你相關的評估,你的民調是什麼?請你告訴我,什麼叫做一次的民調?請你告訴我,你隨後把書面資料給本席,你所做的相關評估,你的民調,那請拿出來。不是我的民調,66%這個民調,我在講的是這個民調。"},{"start":15587.023,"end":15587.763,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":15614.01,"end":15621.093,"text":"好,謝謝,請王洪威委員,王洪威委員,王洪威委員不在,請鍾嘉斌委員。主席,在場的委員先進,列席了政府金融市場官員,會場工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請我們李主委。好,請李主委。"},{"start":15647.134,"end":15675.481,"text":"主委好,對於我們今天內政委員審議的版本包括羅智強版本叫做公投綁大選賴士寶的版本是對應處置主委你還記得我們上一次什麼時候辦過公投嗎上次的公投應該就是2022年的修憲公投沒有過你比我還記好我都忘了修憲公投了那你還記得2021年那個政策公投當中有哪些題目嗎"},{"start":15678.681,"end":15703.533,"text":"2021年有萊豬有藻礁有公投榜大學還有一個叫做什麼我都寫在上面了啦你看看才不到三年的時間很多人都不記得我們2021年投過這四個票這四個案有通過嗎四個案子都沒有通過那通過的條件是不是要投票率超過四成"},{"start":15704.861,"end":15707.324,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":15725.421,"end":15726.482,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":15746.539,"end":15749.423,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員"},{"start":15757.594,"end":15776.554,"text":"新竹市喝好水污水處理的公投有沒有過?有嘛!他的投票率也是4乘3嘛因為中央公投4乘1但是他在4乘單當中同意的多於不同意的而且同意票多於怎樣?四分之一就是25%對不對?所以過了嘛那過了有沒有做?"},{"start":15779.011,"end":15785.118,"text":"一個公投案過了,結果多數人不知道到底市政府做了沒有。上次為什麼修法把公投綁到遠脫溝?"},{"start":15800.916,"end":15819.623,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":15829.141,"end":15842.834,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草案。四、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條"},{"start":15854.346,"end":15877.074,"text":"好,沒有錯,我們對人的選舉罷免是對這個行政首長的信任,要或不要,對不對?對於事情,我希望選擇哪一件事情,它是不太一樣的。就要比如說我們公司的餐廳,我請主廚來,大家來投票,決定個主廚,四個月之後再來討論他做得好不好。但是呢,如果我要求主廚明天要出一道菜,叫做番茄炒蛋,"},{"start":15877.95,"end":15904.671,"text":"那番茄炒蛋做出來好不好吃?有沒有做出番茄炒蛋?我是就這個事情來連結說這個主廚好不好,你覺得會不會有點過度的隱身過度了?我今天請你來當廚師,你廚藝好,我們員工吃得開心,但是中間那邊就說你沒有吃到番茄炒蛋,那你能不能做得出來,或者我吃得滿不滿意,來決定你這個廚師的去留,你覺得這樣會不會太過於牽強了?"},{"start":15908.462,"end":15930.798,"text":"沒有實際的案例。目前我們看到賴士葆嚴寬衡的案件,他說全責機關這時候要提出辭職,如果公投上一個月準備提出必要之處置,如果沒有做好就要辭職。中選會能不能認定個別的個案他的全責機關,我們考你一下往下看,譬如說往下看,公投榜大選請問這個全責機關是中選會行政院還是立法院?這一題啊,全責機關是誰能不能告訴我?"},{"start":15937.057,"end":15964.522,"text":"法律的主管機關是中選會。法律的機關,所以如果這一案通過了沒有做就中選會下台。或者說2004強化國防,你認為他的選擇機關是國防部行政院還是總統?這個都牽涉到。都牽涉到。所以,如果我們要比照剛剛的案子,權責機關首長都搞到搞不清楚了,再往下看。那怎麼樣我才滿意?我請你炒一個番茄炒蛋,沒有番茄沒有蛋你炒給我,你做得出來嗎?"},{"start":15965.95,"end":15979.514,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":15995.936,"end":15999.219,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":16018.08,"end":16032.292,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":16045.947,"end":16060.71,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修"},{"start":16073.291,"end":16077.336,"text":"就是只要追究別人的責任逃避自己接受民意監督的這個"},{"start":16078.493,"end":16079.393,"text":"逃避民意的監督。」"},{"start":16114.365,"end":16130.137,"text":"接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在請高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員不在請陳俊宇委員請陳俊宇委員陳俊宇委員不在請黃國昌委員"},{"start":16143.848,"end":16144.331,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":16153.939,"end":16155.1,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":16178.547,"end":16202.688,"text":"公投跟選舉合併舉行,有助於人民行使他的權利。」在另外一方面,中選會考慮的是選務的負擔。主任你都報告過了嗎?作為立法者,我們要做的決定是,這兩件事情放在天平的兩端,孰輕孰重。我們有沒有可能,藉由比較好的設計,"},{"start":16204.841,"end":16232.56,"text":"去減低行政上面的負擔去促進人民對憲法所保障公民權利的行使這個是這個委員會乃至於國會下一個階段要處理的問題這個是修法的全責主管機關的意見我們都聽到了會納入我們立法上面的考慮每一個委員心裡面都有一把尺我也不會要求主委要表態因為你有你的看法"},{"start":16234.211,"end":16246.231,"text":"我會作為集體意志代表人民行使最後立法權限的組織體我們要做最後一個決定我相信對於立法的結果中選會一定會尊重嘛 對不對"},{"start":16247.879,"end":16255.527,"text":"中選會要依法執行。在立法修法的過程裏面,我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。"},{"start":16266.278,"end":16294.689,"text":"在民主深化的過程當中在民主深化的過程當中什麼是走回頭路這件事情每個人心裡有一把尺在您的心裡認為說公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候您有做這樣的意見的表達我接任中選會主委的時候公投是我要跟主委說的是什麼我要跟主委說的是"},{"start":16296.349,"end":16318.04,"text":"2019年當初的公投法鎖禁鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間提案當天沒有經過委員會討論直接禁敷二讀冷凍30天以後強行表決30天30天喔把非常多我們民主的前輩"},{"start":16319.301,"end":16338.983,"text":"再推動公投法補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠嗎?當然從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史所以他們的立場改變這個我尊重這個我尊重但我要說的事情是什麼?"},{"start":16340.117,"end":16363.56,"text":"我要說的事情是在我心裡面2019年那才是走回頭路鎖回鳥籠公投法那才是真的走回頭路當然主委你有不一樣的看法我也尊重但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責要共同決定的事情包括我們的總統賴清德"},{"start":16365.783,"end":16389.488,"text":"當初公投跟選舉要何必舉行這是我們賴總統在當立委的時候的信念當初的提案他也是大力的倡議當然可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變會改變還包括什麼來我再帶主委看一下主委你說這個"},{"start":16392.612,"end":16414.723,"text":"違反公投的選舉的結果應辭職。這應該是政治責任,不應該是法律責任。這個也是主委您的看法嗎?沒有錯。是嗎?好。那剛剛甚至有委員說,說提這個案子的委員是不想負責任。因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後,我覺得非常的害怕。"},{"start":16415.663,"end":16427.556,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":16435.393,"end":16461.129,"text":"我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候他提這個法律案絕對不會是因為絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任他只是想要別人負責任我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正要釋放鳥籠公投甚至說什麼違反公投的結果權責機關的首長應立即辭職"},{"start":16464.38,"end":16465.163,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":16470.473,"end":16498.309,"text":"在法理上是講不通的行得通行不通我們到逐條的時候大家再來討論但我要駁斥的是什麼我要駁斥的是說啊民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想指責現在提案的委員不想負責任所以嘛現在是針對中選會的大選了等一下馬上要由你回答的事情請你不要急因為我覺得道理啊要講清楚啊"},{"start":16499.281,"end":16522.299,"text":"我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任所以才提這種案子嗎?我個人認為並不是如此但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嗎?是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦?是的那現在結果怎麼樣?"},{"start":16524.216,"end":16536.947,"text":"如果是最近可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人不是只有一位啦21個人21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛最後結果怎麼樣是不起訴處分"},{"start":16538.479,"end":16567.037,"text":"你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講?我第一點要講的就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定我們是予以尊重第二點但是我們也深覺遺憾那我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢?因為我認為選舉是一個非常重要的民主國家非常重要的一個工程選舉的這個成敗攸關到我們整個民主的進程"},{"start":16567.817,"end":16568.377,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":16589.309,"end":16598.873,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。七、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16607.881,"end":16635.343,"text":"各別的疏失當然是有。人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯?那個我們有做過說明的做過澄清的有些甚至於是無中生有的都有這種來來來來來中選會代表上面是怎麼講的?你們的告訴代理人啊徵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業的情況這個是"},{"start":16638.626,"end":16648.133,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":16668.823,"end":16669.123,"text":"三、審查委員"},{"start":16682.798,"end":16698.322,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":16709.636,"end":16729.093,"text":"他們歷經了這個勞力時間費用的浪費結果你今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講說你的意思是說我有話要講你們21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已啦我要講的話剛剛已經講過了對嘛所以我就說嘛你今天的立場違反"},{"start":16730.334,"end":16753.91,"text":"對於違反國家秀黑重大法例的事項應該要負更高的注意。」所以你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嗎?就算檢察官不起訴處分這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力、所承受的痛苦從中選會的立場來講剛好而已,是不是這樣?"},{"start":16755.34,"end":16774.659,"text":"剛好而已我是不會用因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面的影響第一個我要說一次喔中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票的情況這是客觀的事實喔"},{"start":16775.424,"end":16797.251,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":16805.492,"end":16827.146,"text":"他們所質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?他們所在質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?有些是受過度的延伸啊。過度的延伸。請你回答問題啊。他的影帶有偽照變照嗎?我沒有每一件都看齁。我沒有每一件都看。來!請你自己在上面看。我白紙黑字也推在上面。這個是不起訴處分數上面寫的啊。"},{"start":16829.551,"end":16853.779,"text":"被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。不是轉接就完全可以撇清責任嗎?你要轉接你就知道說有很多人可以去聽可以去看對整個事件的這個真相是不是有所模糊所以重點嘛重點是那個引擔是不是有被變造是不是有被偽造今天喔"},{"start":16854.895,"end":16876.548,"text":"如果有人偽造變造引帶去污蔑我們的選務同仁我跟主委報告我們大家一定共同譴責太過分了但問題是什麼問題今天調查的結果出來那些引帶完全沒有偽造變造完全沒有偽造變造啊然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了"},{"start":16878.424,"end":16893.673,"text":"選務的確有問題最後做出了不請訴處分您作為中選會的主委連跟這21個人說抱歉讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序你連這個格局都沒有"},{"start":16894.513,"end":16908.654,"text":"對於國家社會重大法役所受到的侵害大家應該要共同的面對這問題不在於我要不要表示歉意而是這對整個社會對民主的一個重大傷害所以我就問你嘛學務有沒有缺失嘛有還是沒有"},{"start":16909.395,"end":16909.995,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":16925.334,"end":16925.915,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":16945.734,"end":16964.216,"text":"上一次在這邊問的時候你自己就承認了對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有一句sorry都沒有一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑阿這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎"},{"start":16967.11,"end":16981.841,"text":"中選會選務有瑕疵公民不能質疑你敢質疑我把你移送法辦這樣子論述太簡單了沒有關係啊我靜候你我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啊你們徹底的被打臉了今天還站在這邊硬拗喔"},{"start":16992.476,"end":17012.319,"text":"維護國家社會的法律,這也是中選會的責任。所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛!就活該嘛!被你的中選會移送活該而已啦!這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴啦!選務的尊嚴?沒有幫助!不是啦!那你就把選務做好就好了嘛!"},{"start":17013.171,"end":17015.472,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":17036.456,"end":17052.955,"text":"接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在請洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員不在請陳金輝委員陳金輝委員陳金輝委員不在請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在"},{"start":17053.576,"end":17078.967,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正"},{"start":17080.248,"end":17106.63,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員徐富奎委員徐富奎委員徐富奎委員不在。五、審查委員謝龍介委員謝龍介委員謝龍介委員不在。六、審查委員羅美玲委員羅美玲委員羅美玲委員不在。七、審查委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員不在。八、審查委員賴瑞龍委員賴瑞龍委員賴瑞龍委員不在。八、審查委員林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在。"},{"start":17107.35,"end":17134.447,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員不在。五、審查委員王帝宇委員、王帝宇委員、王帝宇委員不在。六、審查委員翁曉林委員、翁曉林委員、翁曉林委員不在。七、審查委員葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。八、審查委員林黛樺委員、林黛樺委員、林黛樺委員不在。八、審查委員吳佩奕委員、吳佩奕委員、吳佩奕委員不在。"},{"start":17135.486,"end":17157.219,"text":"好,我們登記發言的委員除不在場者,其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員汪小林所提書面質詢列入記錄,刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答覆部分,請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":17160.838,"end":17164.007,"text":"報告委員會現在進行法案條文的宣讀,請宣讀。"},{"start":17169.178,"end":17194.771,"text":"第9條委員吳秉瑞等提案。第5項與本人國民身份證統一編號後增定發證日期其餘同線型條文。第10條委員吳秉瑞等人提案。第6項第二款與國民身份證統一編號後增定發證日期其餘同線型條文。第12條委員吳秉瑞等提案。第三項與本人國民身份證統一編號後增定發證日期其餘同線型條文。第13條"},{"start":17197.533,"end":17221.087,"text":"第二項第二款與國民身份證同一編號後增訂發證日期其餘同線性條文。第二十一條,臺灣民眾黨黨團提案,增訂第二項第三項,前項之公民投票案數如超過一定案數應全部印製於同一選票。第一項公民投票案之標號,二個以上性質相同標的不互相排斥,或二個以上性質相同標的"},{"start":17222.228,"end":17246.14,"text":"相反者,均因編為同一編號下之序列號碼,其下之序列號碼順序依其公告成立時間排序。原第二項一列第四項,增訂第五項。第二項之一,以定案數由中央主管機關定之,其餘同線性條文。第二十三條,委員羅智強等提案。第一項修正為主管機關應與公民投票案公告成立後一個月起至六個月內"},{"start":17247,"end":17276.17,"text":"舉行公民投票該期間內有全國性選舉時應與該選舉同日舉行其與同現行條文。第三十條委員賴士寶等提案。第一項第三款修正為有關重大政策者應由總統或權責機關於三個月內提出未實現該公民投票案內容之必要處置但違反該公民投票案內容之行政處分法規命令或行政規則或執行法律細節性或補充性規定應即停止執行。"},{"start":17276.91,"end":17302.405,"text":"預期未提出提出之必要處置未符合公民投票案之內容或違反該公民投票案內容之行政處分法規命令或行政規則或執行法律細節性或補充性規定未及停止執行者。權責機關之首長應立即提出辭職。第四項、第五項、第六項之二年修正為四年其餘同現行條文。增訂第35條之一委員吳秉叡等提案。"},{"start":17303.405,"end":17322.356,"text":"第三十五條之一,利用他人個人資料未經同意偽造假冒提案聯署者,處五年以下有期徒刑,拘役或處新台幣一百萬元以下罰還。第四十三條,臺灣民眾黨黨團提案,前段修正為違反第21條第四項規定,其餘同現行條文。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":17326.441,"end":17337.911,"text":"討論事項所列我們做以下決議討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16225","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16225","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd20f6709a214df6ef9e564336fc7700a1083084566cc2bdb4d1f5bcaae46f48b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長、交通部民用航空局局長、交通部航港局局長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部、內政部國家公園署、農業部林業及自然保育署及行政院消費者保護處就「如何提升國外旅客來台觀光人數暨優化國旅體驗及降低旅遊消費爭議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請交通部觀光署署長、交通部公路局局長、交通部高速公路局局長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長及桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長就「2025台灣燈會辦理情形暨交通疏運方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-04","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-04T08:30:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T13:43:00+08:00","duration":18746,"影片長度":"05:12:26","委員發言時間":"08:30:34 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of Wonder我們臺灣魅力驚喜無限它是經過三波的一個推廣所以我們第一波的推廣已經全球播放那麼再來就是第二波的春夏秋冬四季的影片的行銷"},{"start":2483.522,"end":2489.971,"text":"那麼第三波呢就是要是再更深入的用社群網絡代言"},{"start":2491.986,"end":2520.098,"text":"甚至更多的這個話題來做捲動第三部分就是要擴大影客共同推升市場的行銷的聲量我們加強執行加速擴大影客方案之外我們也透過海外的旅展我們的推廣會以及戶內戶外的廣告行銷還有數位行銷跟所謂的社群行銷來強力影客"},{"start":2521.238,"end":2528.46,"text":"第4部分是增加入境旅客的誘因爭取潛力市場的客源推動一城多站"},{"start":2529.551,"end":2550.75,"text":"那麼一層多站的轉機客包括北美市場我們目前有40萬那麼如何讓轉機客成為一種順道台灣的旅遊也就所謂的國際旅遊是一個非常重要的課題第二個爭取國際大型活動在台灣舉辦除了各部會的努力之外觀光署也爭取到2025世界賞鳥博覽會跟2025的世界露營大會在台灣舉辦"},{"start":2556.798,"end":2577.034,"text":"接著我們也要打造臺灣成為亞洲郵輪市場的重任因為疫情之後郵輪已經變成一個非常重要的旅遊的一個媒介那麼它也是一個移動式的旅館因此如何積極推動我們也串聯了基隆、高雄、花蓮"},{"start":2577.814,"end":2584.259,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":2599.278,"end":2622.485,"text":"第5個部分呢也就是最重要就是優化要優惠促銷方案目前是各國長年以來的重要工具與手段尤其是疫後更多的國家都是增香加碼那我國仍然會穩健、省慎來推動各項優惠的促銷措施包括一"},{"start":2623.757,"end":2642.402,"text":"國際旅客來臺的機票優惠那麼觀光署也跟各駐外辦事處與航空公司跟旅行社合作輸入機票的買三送一或買二送一這是按照市場的區隔跟市場的特性而做區分"},{"start":2644.588,"end":2668.857,"text":"也推出了限量的福袋、優惠的旅宿跟交通的票券那麼尤其是自由行的部分我們用這個儲值儲值金的方式、電子票證的方式來引客第二部分是高鐵的旅運優惠我們從去年的9月13號開始就是持續用短期的旅客觀光簽證那麼來購買單程的"},{"start":2672.708,"end":2676.729,"text":"有限公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":2699.467,"end":2720.006,"text":"國內版跟國外版那國外版、海外版呢叫做高鐵版那麼第三個部分呢我們也加速擴大團客旅遊為我們花蓮來加碼所以這個部分呢我們目前也將七天六夜的行程的優惠門檻降低到五天四夜那麼我們就希望能夠帶動這個振興東部旅遊"},{"start":2723.035,"end":2747.946,"text":"那麽另外就是由臺灣金服器的部分我們也為了拉臺第四季所以我們有一個one more time的加碼活動也就是從遊客可以再抽一次那麽來刺激這個促銷的一個方式針對大家所關心的捲動國旅的部分原則上我們有幾個方案第一個就是"},{"start":2749.138,"end":2753.22,"text":"有限公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":2767.265,"end":2782.123,"text":"每個月都有月的特性也就是所謂的月月各有特色的執行縣市例如從11月開始我們就希望是一個溫泉月最執行的就是台中市跟花蓮縣"},{"start":2783.524,"end":2801.142,"text":"那麼下個月12月呢我們希望是購買月所以購物節能夠做串接那麼臺北之外其實嘉義它有很多伴手禮也是可以做串聯的所以我們希望用一個環島的方式來做一個月月的這個引領"},{"start":2802.643,"end":2828.6,"text":"其次我們要整合高鐵、台鐵還有四大捷運系統跟臺灣好行推出的臺灣帕子的部分我們希望能夠擴大那麼其次就是臺灣A1旅宿網我們推出的優速專案鼓勵業者來提供更平價優惠的住宿其次特色活動來升級所以我們除了2025年的臺灣燈會之外"},{"start":2833.208,"end":2846.321,"text":"接續會有一個報告就是針對2025年的台灣燈會的報告那麼我們也希望能夠帶動更多的國際化剛剛部長有特別提到我們全球的百大亮點裡面有六大亮點在台灣"},{"start":2847.472,"end":2858.002,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":2872.156,"end":2895.646,"text":"那麼我們接續在陳部長的討論之後我們也推動了所謂的這個3.0也就是希望能夠結合更多的演唱活動來加碼那因此我們希望能夠帶動11月跟12月的所以我們就以這個第一碗1000元第二碗1500元的方式折扣希望能夠更多人留在"},{"start":2896.949,"end":2905.609,"text":"花蓮來帶動花蓮的景氣而為了台東的部分我們是採取平日跟假日都可以申請一千元的補助"},{"start":2908.635,"end":2932.106,"text":"接著就是擴大以及整合、結合部會資源來做跨域的合作今天各部會也到我們的交通委員會來做專案報告那我簡單的說明一下其實我們非常多的開發多元的旅遊主題我們確實也需要跟林業署、跟國家公運署做合作那麼"},{"start":2933.146,"end":2962.225,"text":"我們也需要跟經濟部做合作推動山道旅遊尤其是有非常多的橋嶺能夠橋包的一些還有青年旅遊的活動我們都接續來跟各部位來推動而我們在交通部本身也有機關的協力譬如增加航線、航班推動郵輪還有燈塔旅遊以及鐵道旅遊等等還有包括自行車旅遊希望能夠建構良善的自行車旅遊環境"},{"start":2963.887,"end":2984.861,"text":"那麼接續就是大家所關心的如何降低旅遊消費爭議自疫情之後旅遊逐步復甦交通部觀光署在去年的9月15成立之後也立即加強相關的旅遊安全宣導那麼我們也持續希望能夠從源頭減少糾紛來做辦理"},{"start":2989.724,"end":3017.892,"text":"那因此有幾個部分跟各位委員報告在加強消費者保護措施方面主要有一、旅遊糾紛的調處服務二、從業人員的糾紛處理訓練、教育訓練那麼我們也辦了四場那麼覺得也不夠所以我們也擴大做一些線上來做輔導那麼尤其是各縣市的工協會第三、適時發布警訊及安全宣導"},{"start":3019.298,"end":3041.704,"text":"那麼我們也定每年的3月為旅遊安全月來加強這個安全的這個意識那麼第4點就是提高履約保證保險為有效確保消費者的權益觀光署已與業者取得共識課證修法中我們將履約保證金從現行的500萬"},{"start":3044.414,"end":3071.73,"text":"提高到1500萬並擬至114年的1月起來實施二、在旅行社稽查與管理方面我們有幾個做法一、每月固定查核旅行社二、加強查查旅行社旅遊團體的現況三、擴大檢查票據信用監控措施"},{"start":3073.146,"end":3081.598,"text":"是建立重點查核對象以上四項重點也是蔣佑泰烈所應有的作為"},{"start":3083.157,"end":3088.542,"text":"接著我請就這個議題二2025年臺灣燈會辦理進行與交通輸運方案跟各位委員報告臺灣燈會以為國際知名的活動為臺灣傳統民俗節慶的盛會並為2024年全球四大亮點活動與巴黎奧運同為國際盛事"},{"start":3106.9,"end":3126.653,"text":"所以臺灣燈會已經成為我國的國際影客亮點活動那麼有關於臺灣燈會的辦理情形我們持續跟桃園市來做合作那麼今年2025年是正逢第36屆的這個臺灣燈會也是桃園市繼2016年睽違9年之後再度舉辦"},{"start":3135.441,"end":3158.071,"text":"那麼我們預定的時間就是在元宵節也就是2025年的2月12日那麼為開燈日那麼到2月23日必燈幕為期12天那主辦城市呢他們希望能夠擴大燈會的這個效益所以他們會提早來開燈那麼也配合一些相關的活動"},{"start":3159.051,"end":3173.541,"text":"因此我們交通部觀光署與桃園市政府也藉由桃園獨特的魅力所謂的地形特色還有年輕人的活力智慧科技那麼我們"},{"start":3174.963,"end":3202.301,"text":"以光緒千塘串桃園為主軸那麼最重要有兩個特色就是桃園國際機場第二個就是我們的棒球那麼我們也會中華職棒來做連結我們把棒球場巧妙運用也納入我們這次的燈會透過各式的燈會的形式來映照桃園多元的城市樣貌"},{"start":3203.53,"end":3218.762,"text":"那在中央燈區是在高鐵的桃園站那我們叫做這個A18站配合桃園市希望用桃園桃園捷運機場捷運線的代碼那麼第二呢是在這個桃園體育區站的A19"},{"start":3221.644,"end":3250.552,"text":"那也就是一個雙主燈展區的概念來推動那麼有關於目前規劃中的主展區也就是A18觀光署主辦的部分我們依進度在進行所以我們是用棒球場的概念把主燈跟副主燈用壘包的方式來做呈現希望能夠有不一樣的臺灣燈會另外有關於桃園市政府的A19的部分他們希望能夠展現活力"},{"start":3251.152,"end":3253.175,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":3266.38,"end":3294.643,"text":"目前交通輸運的部分觀光署已經補助了桃園市政府按照往例有100萬的輸運計畫的規劃辦理另外桃園市政府也正進行規劃優先引導參展觀賞台灣燈會的民眾來搭乘高鐵、台鐵有8000席的警車位的配置為了鼓勵公共運輸觀光署也跟台鐵做合作"},{"start":3295.566,"end":3300.251,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":3311.133,"end":3338.889,"text":"各部會以及觀光署都會充分來協助來辦理那麼相關的交通輸運接駁計畫或者是花燈的競賽大型活動的緊急應變指標設置競賽燈區的相關的電力等問題也都是我們有持續在進行那麼各單位的報告可能也是有等一下會有各單位的相關的報告"},{"start":3339.81,"end":3355.098,"text":"那我們會這個持續將這些競賽的燈區以及接駁的事項會跟桃園市政府充分溝通能夠如期如質來舉辦臺灣燈會2025在桃園綜合以上江部觀光署除積極強化目標市場各項飲客措施外"},{"start":3366.184,"end":3375.662,"text":"各部會也推出了很多優惠的措施我們希望以多元行銷推廣那麼部會跟地方共同合力透過"},{"start":3376.798,"end":3401.597,"text":"行政院相關會議來整合各部會的觀光資源擴大參與能量達成來臺旅客送客目標以及2025臺灣燈會的重要盛事希望能夠引領國內外旅客看見臺灣低碳生態永續的新價值來促進整體觀光產業發展能量以上報告敬請各位委員支持指教謝謝"},{"start":3403.988,"end":3420.02,"text":"好謝謝交通部交通部的報告比較厚重因為那個業務單位那我們再請一下這個就是友軍單位我們再請一位這個外交部外交部因為今天謝謝祖密祖密都很熱心來報告一下因為我剛剛看你的報告能不能"},{"start":3420.7,"end":3439.545,"text":"因為轉機客已經比疫情前大概3到5%現在已經大概16、17%了這個生意可不可以做因為我跟觀光交通部討論了半天他說這個怎麼樣進來是不是你待會請主秘也是一併說明好我們請外交部唐電文主秘來做報告"},{"start":3448.914,"end":3462.413,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位委員在座各位女士各位先生大家早安感謝貴委員會邀請就如何提升國外旅客來臺觀光人數及優化國立體驗及降低消費爭議進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":3465.177,"end":3489.264,"text":"外交部為了配合政府推動吸引外籍觀光客來臺的政策全力協同交通部觀光署及內政部的移民署等機關實施多項外籍人士來臺簽證以及入境便利措施並藉由強化相關的國際文宣提升臺灣國際能見度以下資就簽證入境以及國際文宣等措施說明如此"},{"start":3489.924,"end":3518.24,"text":"以外籍人士來臺簽證以及入境的便利措施經過綜合考量我國與各國的關係社會經濟發展情形移民以及安全風險程度目前呢我國是也給予65個國家免簽證的待遇這65個國家中間還包括三個事半的國家泰國、汶萊以及菲律賓那麼另外呢還有18個國家呢可以享受電子簽證待遇的服務便利取等來臺旅遊"},{"start":3519.341,"end":3534.649,"text":"另外外交部為了配合政府推動新南向政策自105年起每年就邀集相關的部會共同會商決議針對新南向國家實施多項簽證以及入境的便利措施第一個就是事辦"},{"start":3535.489,"end":3537.63,"text":"有限公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司"},{"start":3566.069,"end":3590.794,"text":"有關設置國際文宣提升臺灣國際的能見度外交部配合去年行政院促進義後旅客來臺的政策辦理國際文宣推廣國家整體的形象辦理的情形如下第一個軟實力的影片行銷去年我們設置了觀光溫泉美食等五部的主題短片並且協助宣傳行政院委制觀光影片"},{"start":3591.694,"end":3616.031,"text":"經過外交部以及駐外管處與社群媒體平臺推廣上述影片的觀看總數超過了3250萬次另外外交部與Discovery頻道合制了新竹探位臺灣的紀錄片藉由美食文化吸引旅客上年底起於亞洲20個國家播出其中6個國家的收視調查超過了918萬戶社群媒體的平臺曝光數超過了千萬"},{"start":3621.414,"end":3643.513,"text":"第2個巴黎奧運的國際文宣本年藉由國際運動的盛事我們外交部特別行銷臺灣與外交部與文化部共同補助臺灣展演的團隊參與巴黎的文化奧運進行兩個星期的展演現場並且分送臺灣印象碑墊等文宣小物每日都吸引了6000到1萬人到場"},{"start":3645.214,"end":3666.643,"text":"另外我們也測試臺灣影像世界短片、結合運動、地景、人文等總觀看數超過1480萬次明年也規劃藉著日本大阪勢博會擴大國際文宣第三個多元管道加強持續推廣本部持續運用經營的多語文"},{"start":3667.363,"end":3677.129,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":3688.216,"end":3712.907,"text":"整體的規劃與相關部會合作以力達成政策目標期盼大院各位委員持續支持並且指教謝謝主席剛剛提到那個我們外交部這邊會全力配合觀光署與內政部移民署的規劃來辦理謝謝好謝謝外交部提這麼多的客人來轉機走過路過我們真的不希望他錯過了好那"},{"start":3714.79,"end":3736.672,"text":"當然我們今天內政部國家公園署跟我們農業部還有消保處都有提供完整的一個報告請委員們參閱現在我們進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間出席委員5加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘第二委員發言登記於10點30分截止"},{"start":3737.313,"end":3754.114,"text":"第3個委員如果有臨時提案請於10點鐘提出以便議事人員會診第4暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第5中午原則上不休息現在我們就請登記第一位李昆哲委員發言"},{"start":3761.084,"end":3774.208,"text":"謝謝 召委 請一下陳世凱部長陳部長民進黨局何書平局長、觀光署周署長周局長、周署長機場公司楊董事長、港務公司李董事長李董"},{"start":3779.537,"end":3798.488,"text":"部長您好委員好臺灣的社會大眾對於臺灣的國際旅遊的推動其實是很失望的我們在當初預計向我們的社會大眾說明我們今年要有1000萬人次的國際觀光旅客那現在成績如何簡單說明一下"},{"start":3799.028,"end":3824.99,"text":"跟委員報告目前應該已經超過620萬已經超過620萬人那到年底的話應該是620萬應該是很慚愧的說明所以我們現在就只有這個人數而已去年也差不多是600多萬那今年的數字已經比去年好但還是不夠還是不夠但是你不能跟去年比你要跟世界各國來比世界各國的國際旅客都已經恢復快到疫情之前的水準"},{"start":3825.43,"end":3846.723,"text":"我們沒有做好啊我們到現在只有六七成那當然你們不能把相關的理由說這是過去因為地震因為颱風或是相關主要觀光國日本的問題或是人力的問題這都不是理由啊是部長因為在之前部長的更換"},{"start":3847.998,"end":3871.803,"text":"那之前的李部長也離職你來緊急的擔任這樣的一個工作你必須在觀光旅客的這個部分提出具體的一個政策出來那我認為應該要給你半年的時間我們就看成績要給你嚴格的督促相關的觀光署的業務相關的政策"},{"start":3872.898,"end":3898.564,"text":"你現在有沒有一個基本的看法來簡單說明一下報告委員我們在行銷的部分當然大家很努力但是我認為重點是在於亮點台灣有哪些亮點可以讓世界看得到那過去大家習慣講日月潭講阿里山講太魯閣我覺得這樣亮點太少而且受到天災的改變我認為這個對國際影客是有損害的所以我希望亮點要增加我們要建立真正讓國際看得到的其他的亮點"},{"start":3899.244,"end":3927.057,"text":"那這個部分我們跟觀光署跟各縣市也正在盤聚焦聚焦幾個亮點大家來讓全世界看到這是第一個第二個是行銷面向我覺得要更靈活以我的觀察我認為做大片很重要讓國際看得到很厲害的大片很重要但現在社會上或者是國際上比較流行的是用社群媒體社群媒體的行銷甚至是一些網紅的行銷年輕人的行銷方式因為就我本人"},{"start":3927.937,"end":3953.091,"text":"出國旅遊的經驗來講我都是看所謂的網路行銷的部分的介紹這個部分我覺得觀光署可以來加強行銷重要那相關的觀光資源的投注也是一個重要的方向那也必須在總預算的部分我們希望能夠能夠詳細的審查部長也必須提出詳細的一個說明另外也必須要跟行政院長"},{"start":3954.311,"end":3971.721,"text":"爭取更多的觀光資源來投注這才是一個重要的一個方向那我們是給你半年的時間我們要看你提出相關的這樣的一個政策來部長我請教一下你對明年的國際觀光的人數你心裡有沒有一個底"},{"start":3973.434,"end":3990.173,"text":"我覺得今年如果達到多少人數大概750萬到800萬我們一定是往上加嘛那我不希望過去提的數字有時候跟事實有些偏離啦我希望比較務實一點不過我覺得明年的目標應該可以達到今年沒達到的那一個目標"},{"start":3995.342,"end":4017.296,"text":"要有志氣一點部長要提出你的具體因為推動觀光旅遊就是要像你這樣一個年輕有魄力的部長來推動要更有信心你自己都講這麼沒有信心觀光旅遊業者會有信心民眾會有信心嗎今年沒有達到的一千萬我們明年最少要達到一千萬"},{"start":4018.581,"end":4021.243,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":4036.231,"end":4064.696,"text":"復興航空澎湖的空難那當時也是颱風期間也因為啊事件及相關的這個問題啊雖然在合乎相關的降落的規範但是因為啊這個當時啊澎湖機場沒有這種盲降的系統這是在事後我要求之後才做的可以對準跑道可以對準相關的角度以及距離的這個盲降系統是之後才設立的"},{"start":4065.296,"end":4094.679,"text":"那當然在這次的桃園機場重降落這個事件雖然桃園機場是沒有盲降系統它是有更好的移降系統那這樣的一個狀況那當初澎湖復興空間造成嚴重的傷亡也是因為它角度太低要重新起飛的時候重飛的時候角度太低已經爬不起來所以就嚴重的撞擊那"},{"start":4095.977,"end":4116.841,"text":"我們現在來進行相關的就是說我們班機的派遣標準航空公司的派遣標準就是我們美航局所說的簽派這樣一個簽派在颱風期間當然是要依據最新的這樣一個氣象報告非常限度來進行相關的風險評估來做相關的派遣來那個局長簡單說明一下我們這樣那個標準"},{"start":4120.735,"end":4146.99,"text":"報告委員這個部分確實我們其實事前有要求航空公司要保守簽牌那從事後的一個轉將跟重飛來講確實這個保守的部分我們已經要求他檢討那三個檢討的重點就是一個就是不良天后的派遣那這個就包含這個風向還有這個風速這個速限然後再加上剛剛講的能見度不過能見度在這一次反正這一次會檢討這三個"},{"start":4148.311,"end":4175.713,"text":"那第二個還有包含所謂的重落地就剛剛講的新宇這個部長這個對於不良氣候相關的這樣一個派遣的規範必須要有更明確的規定跟標準因為它包含了飛航組員的訓練跟要求以及相關的這樣一個民航局在颱風期間這樣一個派遣標準要跟航空公司更明確的規範這個部分我們已經在要求檢討我們也會在近期開會另外一個當然"},{"start":4177.653,"end":4201.905,"text":"航空公司要不要派遣飛機有一定的規範它最重要的基礎是在於機場有沒有開放或者是關閉那機場如果是在合格的範圍之內它也會提供相關降落的服務因為有一些緊急降落必須要來做處理另外就是航空業者又不一樣的心態他也是希望在"},{"start":4202.665,"end":4210.014,"text":"相關的範圍之內盡量的不要取消班機或者是延後班機這會造成他們的一個虧損那相關的這樣的一個機場開放的關閉的標準來簡單說明一下在颱風期間"},{"start":4217.211,"end":4243.446,"text":"我想跟委員報告其實所謂的機場的一個應該是說機場的塔台它有一個測台的標準譬如說那個塔台的風向達到多少的時候我們塔台會測台那可是在這個標準之內其實塔台都會提供服務那最重要的還是回到航空公司的派遣這個派遣的部分譬如說在前兩次的颱風他們就有做到所謂的保守派遣那這一次我們從事後來看確實沒有所以我們才要逐步來檢討他們"},{"start":4244.566,"end":4259.876,"text":"所以會包含剛剛委員所講的風速風險還有包含這個這個這個超時主演可能也會有超時的情形那每一架次我們會去檢視他那檢視完以後會做一個可能會律定一個一個規範原則派錢的原則再給業者"},{"start":4262.838,"end":4284.364,"text":"這個部分我們會再來做檢討那目前的調查狀況我們看到這個是不是重落地它當然是一個嚴重的重落地因為機子已經是2.25已經超過這個機型的紅區那確定是重落地那目前飛機的狀況好像是還沒有放飛因為它程序的標準就是"},{"start":4286.184,"end":4299.206,"text":"必須針對飛機的狀況拍照傳到Airbus這種空中巴士的總公司讓他們來判斷是不是有相關的問題來做處理現在這個程序進行到怎樣"},{"start":4300.083,"end":4318.597,"text":"目前正在進行中這個部分我們會跟原廠還有包含我們調查完才會放飛這個部分會向委員講就是這個部分要經過原廠那駕駛的部分還是在停飛當中因為我們要調查它的操作的部分有沒有違反規定那如果一旦這個部分確實都違反規定的話那我們會以民航法來裁罰"},{"start":4319.819,"end":4335.095,"text":"這個必須要明確的處理那相關的我們看到這個航空公司的這個派遣的標準也必須要來做重新的一個檢視那我們民航局應該對航空業者在"},{"start":4336.155,"end":4352.501,"text":"臺風期間相關的派遣決策就是我們所說的簽派簽派的這樣的一個過程要提供明確的規範那星雲航空在6月有發生這樣重落地的事件應該更嚴格的來檢視相關的派遣流程來說明一下"},{"start":4354.032,"end":4380.892,"text":"新宇其實今年確實有發生幾次的重落地那每一次其實我們已經要求他相關組員的訓練等等這個部分我們已經都在要求那這一次在發生其實我們也會再要求尤其他的組員的訓練的部分看起來組員的訓練部分是要再加強因為如果在這個冊封標準或者是他的降落有問題的時候其實不應該有呈現像網路上這個他降落的情形"},{"start":4381.252,"end":4389.968,"text":"所以這部分我們已經...局長、部長6月已經是中落地10月31又再一次的嚴重的中落地不可以再發生了"},{"start":4390.919,"end":4416.418,"text":"他這個保守派遣要落實啦顯然新宇航空沒有落實保守派遣好 相關的跑道管理跟風險的應對也都必須要去做處理啦我們看到跑道的積水當然它摩擦力不足就會造成這樣的一個重落地或是滑行的一個風險要強化這些道面的管理跟監督確保航機的安全另外最後的時間那我請教一下"},{"start":4417.605,"end":4433.284,"text":"民航局對於高雄的航線的恢復那當然現在目前大概是疫情之前是37條那疫情之後恢復到27條那11月要再加上一條馬來西亞亞幣機場的航線那我在這邊要爭取"},{"start":4437.529,"end":4452.796,"text":"高雄到神戶的航線因為關西、大阪跟神戶是三大機場就是關西地區的三大機場那今年一到九月高雄往大阪機場的航線平均載客力都超過八成"},{"start":4454.197,"end":4480.917,"text":"神戶機場也是日本關係地方的三大機場之一那另外對於高雄跟雄本的這個航線那高雄雄本的航線高雄跟雄本本來就是姊妹市過去每週三班是一個熱門的航線那往雄本的航線今年1至9月我們台灣到雄本的這個載客率也超過八成希望高雄到雄本的航線也趕快能夠恢復來部長說明一下"},{"start":4482.602,"end":4499.262,"text":"好我們到熊本的航線目前我們正在規劃當中也在跟日本那邊去溝通他們地勤的量能的問題如果這個問題神戶呢神戶的部分目前還沒有還在爭取當中但目前還沒有比較具體的進度不過熊本的部分可能會比較具體科技"},{"start":4499.522,"end":4514.154,"text":"熊本會比較快恢復航線比較快那爭取新的神戶的部分局長跟部長要努力我們來爭取我們積極來爭取最後一個就是高雄郵輪來李協議董事長我們的高雄郵輪的母港狀況真的是"},{"start":4515.472,"end":4539.736,"text":"越來越嚴重業績越來越不好你看2023、2024、2025這個比較你看一下就知道然後我們看到這個旅客服務費在過去我們要求對旅客服務費要打折來吸引這種國際優等那旅客服務費5折的這個港口目前有基隆、高雄還有澎湖那旅客服務費它"},{"start":4540.563,"end":4552.15,"text":"五折它有一個啟動的條件就是說統一的國際郵輪累計達標後下一航次期旅客服務費五折"},{"start":4553.614,"end":4572.279,"text":"這個部分這是過去我要求的必須要有這樣的一個優惠那我們看到5折的啟動標準吉隆港、高雄港要10艘次我們跟高雄港是同一個標準澎湖港是5艘次但是我們看到這個2024年郵輪的這個扶惠優惠的啟動的狀況"},{"start":4576.957,"end":4598.965,"text":"高雄港是兩家而已10艘次佔了24%那基隆港有5家基隆港的發展不錯那有218艘次佔比63%那我具體要求調整高雄港服務費的減免機制兩階段的優惠第一階段第一艘期旅客的服務費就全面打7折"},{"start":4599.645,"end":4610.556,"text":"第二階段母港3艘4起就免旅客的服務費那掛靠港5艘起旅客服務費4整這個有沒有問題說明一下"},{"start":4611.511,"end":4630.388,"text":"跟委員報告那個其實我們去年跟今年的那個郵輪明年的有增加只是母桿稍微減少但是委員所提的那個旅客服務費我們當然全力配合董事長、部長要看大條的"},{"start":4631.269,"end":4633.151,"text":"請董事長我們再跟你來討論相關的這樣的一個標準沒有問題好 謝謝委員"},{"start":4660.523,"end":4668.027,"text":"好 謝謝李委員好 接下來有請林沛翔委員發言有請陳部長跟航空局業局長還有港務公司的李董事長來 李董事長"},{"start":4687.711,"end":4694.925,"text":"好 部長麻煩一下 全國都在關心現在在野柳擱淺的豫州好貨輪請跟我們最新的狀況"},{"start":4696.278,"end":4723.992,"text":"跟委員報告這個貨輪從擱淺的第一天我們就非常的在意也非常的緊張所以我本人也到野柳那個地方去看在颱風天的時候那從颱風過後的每一天我們其實都有派抽油船希望能夠靠過去抽油希望能靠過去抽油但是海浪只要超過2公尺大概就沒辦法那前兩天的海浪都超過了4公尺所以我們的抽油船到了現場沒辦法作業不過今天這個海象的狀況有比較好"},{"start":4724.472,"end":4739.761,"text":"所以我們的抽油船也到了現場那目前人員已經上到這個濫船濫船就是擱淺的這艘船上面去開始在作業那目前的作業是把他的這個通風口先把它堵住不要讓油漏掉因為第一步我們要處理的是"},{"start":4740.701,"end":4769.731,"text":"擔心漏油所以油的部分我們優先處理第二部分才是船體的處理那今天已經有這個作業人員已經上去這是一方面二方面我們很擔心說過幾天或者是今天下午或晚上之後會不會海象又不好所以我們同時也在進行一個方案就是我們有那個升降的平台船我們正在調我們希望升降平台船如果過來比較不會受到海象的影響所以跟委員報告我們第一時間希望能夠處理的是抽油"},{"start":4770.211,"end":4784.341,"text":"那今天還好已經上去有機會目前沒有漏油目前沒有漏油那第二件事情本來應該在發生擱淺之前12個小時之前航港局就已經發出可以讓他們離港的事情為什麼沒有離港"},{"start":4785.134,"end":4807.408,"text":"我們當時有請他們離港也有給他離港的通知跟情緒為什麼沒有離港但他沒有離港報告委員這個船他是因為康瑞颱風來襲那依照這個防颱的標準程序他必須要離港避風那時候我記得在他離港前12個小時甚至更久就可以離港為什麼沒有離港"},{"start":4809.75,"end":4823.61,"text":"這對什麼沒有立法?港務公司他為什麼不走?委員在問的意思是為什麼他不走?報告委員基隆港務分公司向你報告那個船基本上他是在28號他有提出申請那他因為他那個"},{"start":4824.571,"end":4838.057,"text":"他那個船的那個高度重心比較不穩他通常這個船是要離港去避台那28號他提出申請以後相關的程序那個符合為什麼拖了12個小時為什麼造成這次的災難"},{"start":4839.903,"end":4857.511,"text":"雖然還沒有漏油不過已經造成現在很麻煩的事情了部長這個事情我希望你們去查清楚為什麼堅持了12個小時才離港如果今天早12個小時離港就不會發生現在擱淺的事情不是嗎針對這個擱淺的事情我就想要下一個議題"},{"start":4861.846,"end":4889.229,"text":"KEDA、SOFIA還有洪聖88號甚至還有其他7艘我查到的貨輪都已經在因為颱風期間在臺灣海域擱淺那這件事情可能未來還要請外交部協助所以我認為有關船舶保險的制度應該要修正甚至這樣講港務公司也好、航港局也好全部都是比照當然如果你們老一輩都還記得都是比照PSA都是舉在新加坡港務公司新加坡港務集團設立的"},{"start":4891.006,"end":4919.629,"text":"可是我們的船舶保險制度並沒有跟新加坡並沒有達到國際的標準所以本席在這邊提出幾個事情尤其最重要的P&I所謂的船東強制責任險船東強制責任險上面來講未來所有進來台灣的船應該他們的insurance policy上面理賠條件應該要理賠全額的損失而船東致富額應該要比保險公司來得少得多"},{"start":4920.47,"end":4947.569,"text":"因為我們現在看到有太多的傳東出了事之後傳東就跑了跑了之後呢然後保險公司說我們沒有責任我們也不知道啊這個事情應該要杜絕像說我知道的狀況是一般來講傳東可能自付額可能到2萬到6萬美金可是90%都是給這個保險公司來付的這個我們不需要要求而包括客輪也需要要你的賠償金要能夠足夠"},{"start":4948.59,"end":4973.007,"text":"不然的話說真的未來還有一個船體險P&I是船東責任強制險可是只保第三方沒有找到如果說沉船的時候所以我們現在看到KETA我們現在看到SOFIA還甚至如果未來郁州號搞不好也是一樣狀況船沉在那邊我們保險公司沒有錢付啊我們不需要付這個錢啊所以我們就擱在那邊變成觀光景點多可笑"},{"start":4974.741,"end":4993.545,"text":"第二個保險公司其實也有不良保險公司保險公司應該有國際認證像QB1、像全球獎十三大聯保不然的話應該從嚴審查我們也很清楚的知道有哪些保險公司是專門在賣證明的賣進來的證明這個應該要杜絕有多少次有這個事情發生"},{"start":4999.755,"end":5020.144,"text":"不是說現在陳部長上任之後才有嗎之前好幾年就一直有這個事情發生這種事情導致說每次這些環境汙染的成本都是我們自己都是我們自己台灣政府在吸收這個要杜絕而且要落實說真的這就是外交部要幫忙因為我們不在國際組織裡面要落實針對保險公司資本額的審查所謂SMP的檢查"},{"start":5021.57,"end":5047.745,"text":"不然的話這個保險公司根本是個空頭公司然後這個保險公司賣了一個證明給我們的船船進來的發生事情的保險公司沒錢付不是只有無良船東也有無良保險公司這個事情需要去改善而且一旦發生任何災害先是保險公司要先第一時間出來理賠不是等到船東作業說我願意付錢之後保險公司才跑出來沒有這個道理"},{"start":5050.218,"end":5054.868,"text":"該付錢了造成汙染了馬上就應該處理不是等到說誰的責任多對不起"},{"start":5055.974,"end":5078.448,"text":"環境污染不等的KEDA我記得是KEDA在台南外海32個貨櫃在外面把整個海洋全部污染跟魚雷一樣那這個事情總是要有人來負責總是要有人來改善吧最後一個PSC也就是所謂我們的港口所在地的檢查人員我們知道每一個港口離開的時候我們檢查人員都會提出船上有哪些缺失之處"},{"start":5080.049,"end":5100.274,"text":"那麻煩如果下一次這個PSC檢察院必須落實船上說檢查船上缺失之處而且確認他們有沒有改善至少一計要一次不要得過且過得過且過最後如果要不配合船舶請麻煩拒絕入港不然每一次進來的時候都是倒楣是我們自己"},{"start":5101.343,"end":5123.216,"text":"部長這當然是您才上任不到半年但是這個事情與其說等到說您後面是怎麼樣再去改善到現在就開始現在就應該要落實了對要跟上國際因為這是我剛剛提的這些全部都是航港界拿新加坡港務公司的標準拿來要求我們那既然我們是國際商港我們就應該做到一樣事情部長認為嗎"},{"start":5124.11,"end":5151.259,"text":"我認為應該要這麼做那委員您剛剛所提到的保險的這個稽查的部分在兩年前已經有在落實了所以目前所發現的最近發生的這幾個案件我們跟保險公司之間的串接都還算順暢那賠償的部分也應該都做得到好這個部分跟委員 未來部長可能這邊也要請外交部幫忙因為我們不是這個正式國家但是外交部有可以有幫忙去查到說這些保險公司資本到底是我們查證的部分也會拜託外交部協助好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":5157.084,"end":5160.444,"text":"謝謝林委員接下來有請林國成委員發言好謝謝主席請陳部長陳部長觀光署周署長還有我們機場公司楊董事長好楊董事長"},{"start":5196.155,"end":5211.915,"text":"好 來 部長每一個委員都認為應該要讓你半年的時間但是我在這裡特別要提醒部長一下我們也知道交通部管轄之多啦那事情之突然"},{"start":5212.756,"end":5221.979,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":5241.287,"end":5258.281,"text":"說明一下從我們的觀光政策其實我坦白跟你講我從當議員到現在當立委我從頭看起來台灣觀光政策根本就是頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳不像國外"},{"start":5262.084,"end":5264.586,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":5292.064,"end":5318.882,"text":"我在想國內的促進觀光你們是有做但是國外到台灣來這個賴總統跟卓院長不是要讓人家看到台灣嗎可是你們規劃出來的政策完全沒有長期規劃的這些計畫部長你想一想1200萬人到現在600多柏定你認為問題出在哪邊"},{"start":5321.691,"end":5335.643,"text":"報告委員當然我們要講國際因素大家不會接受如果要講天災的因素大家也不會接受雖然我們真的有遇到地震也遇到好幾個颱風大家不會接受我認為台灣目前的觀光的問題是在於說我們有很多的亮點"},{"start":5336.744,"end":5352.698,"text":"但是我們永遠都凸顯固定那幾個亮點所以這一次當我們太魯閣受損之後整個國際觀光的形象也受損了所以我認為台灣還有其他的亮點要去開發這是第一個第二個我剛也有報告過就是國際行銷的部分我覺得新的時代要有新的方法"},{"start":5353.358,"end":5382.338,"text":"過去的方法當然可以繼續做不過新的方法大家要來想辦法那這個部分要落實下去做因為坦白說我認為疫情之後到現在臺灣的這個觀光的恢復的速度確實是不夠快那也確實數字上我們不夠滿意那這個部分確實要做改進但委員您剛剛有提到說長期的規劃我們到2025年之前有做一個中期規劃2030年也有做一個中長期的規劃但我認為內容或許不夠好"},{"start":5382.978,"end":5385.76,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":5398.45,"end":5419.572,"text":"也不是一個觀光署就可以解決的問題當初我們期待觀光局變成觀光署的時候會有所作為我看起來除了人員增加、預算增加以外也沒有什麼作為啊所以這些東西我要提醒部長1200人問題在哪邊要找出來你講的只有講對一題"},{"start":5420.495,"end":5438.197,"text":"有沒有可能政策性的開放1200人以上是因為兩岸和平有大陸的觀光客來台灣其實我坦白跟你講阿里山也好啦日夜潭也好啊太魯閣也好我坦白講"},{"start":5439.458,"end":5457.283,"text":"世界各國他不懂什麼但是對岸就會觀光個就會把它當成是一個神奇的地方所以以前有1200萬現在沒有所以這個當然是牽涉到政策部長有時候站在台灣觀光利益的立場"},{"start":5459.264,"end":5482.183,"text":"這個兩岸的開放也是有必要我認為這一塊也非常重要我上任的第一天就已經呼籲希望對岸能夠開放他們的觀光客來到台灣那目前很可惜他們目前是對台灣是不開放的我還是希望對岸可以開放我還是希望這些東西有必要你提供意見的時候把它站在"},{"start":5483.505,"end":5502.402,"text":"營利的立場跟宣導的立場只要政策一開放1200人就不會有立委一直在罵你說你們達不到啦所以這個提醒給部長去做參考也都不要在那邊拐彎抹角問題這個也可以去納入另外"},{"start":5503.183,"end":5517.736,"text":"我們就要來討論一下高雄李映中心也就是剛才所討論的油潤不髒的問題為什麼為什麼來那個那個李李董事長為什麼會這樣"},{"start":5521.196,"end":5549.803,"text":"跟那個不要講太多理由你找出理由就好了現在就是為什麼主要是郵輪不來就是那個在COVID-19的時候我們在不要講那個COVID-19啦現在香港也不影響來啦我跟你講啦董事長你講這個我都知道啦這個也不是你一個可以決定為什麼每況愈下郵輪不來高雄一直去香港"},{"start":5550.603,"end":5577.898,"text":"我坦白講我們這些要去檢討所以我時間的關係我也不要去問你你們很認真做我也知道但是每況一下是事實不要把高雄禮運中心阿花了那麼多錢蓋了那麼好的東西但是沒有去發揮我坦白跟你講這是非常冤枉政府民脂民膏這個部分欸 現在就是高雄內地齁"},{"start":5579.739,"end":5601.184,"text":"高雄裏面的部長我告訴你成為豪華文職館就是我們的高雄理應中心這個我想我們也不要變事實就是這樣那我希望這個部分可能部長要督促然後我們這個董事長這裡可能也要去了解一下來"},{"start":5602.344,"end":5618.983,"text":"那其實真正的問題我必須要提醒給董事長做參考為什麼大家都要到香港去不到高雄來為什麼這個你們去找答案真的要了解我給你提供意見好不好好那個另外一個啊就是來楊董事長"},{"start":5624.622,"end":5639.499,"text":"機場為什麼最近都會出包像上次那個飛機起降發生這個問題你一再我特別帶人去做考察我們也不指責也不責罵希望你們以後不要再換來"},{"start":5642.829,"end":5660.286,"text":"楊總來第一個油罐車怎麼會去撞飛機第二個民眾怎麼會爬到你們的通道去把他墜落在大廳另外一個刑女處為什麼會失火你可以不可以簡單告訴人家為什麼會這樣"},{"start":5662.012,"end":5683.76,"text":"第一個是在空車的部分那個是中油公司油罐車在地勤作業的時候他們的駕駛不小心去撞到了飛機的尾翼那這個案子是目前已經做了處理就是這個駕駛他必須要再重新他的駕照等等那些都已經做暫時的取消我們會去要求他們改進那第二個跟第三個呢事實上是機場公司本身管理上有缺口"},{"start":5685.32,"end":5707.552,"text":"這點我們都承認那民眾跑上通道的部分是因為我們在夜間那是在晚上3點多的時候我們夜間的維修工作是在半夜進行進行完以後工班要出來的時候這個民眾趁他交班進去了出來的時候他鑽進去了那我們的工作夥伴沒有發現那這些外包的這個廠商我們也特別的要求目前改善措施都已經做了"},{"start":5708.612,"end":5715.597,"text":"這是外人喔 不是外包工人喔這個是外人喔 這代表什麼管理不嚴謹 所有人都要負責哪有一個機場可以跑進去 隨便可以墜樓又墜在什麼 那個大廳欸不管是那個 那個是很殘忍的事這是我跟你講 這個董事長 真的 這個要加緊嚴謹博丁 你針對這個你有什麼看法"},{"start":5736.83,"end":5754.39,"text":"這個部分我覺得機場的管理裡面確實是有問題才會出現這樣的狀況不是只有有問題是非常有問題是是是你知道非常有問題那楊董剛剛的說法我認為也有看到問題這個部分我們就是大膽下去改革該把問題補起來就把它補起來"},{"start":5756.072,"end":5783.712,"text":"好了我不希望這樣因為我為什麼這麼氣概因為上一次發生這個事情我們帶所有的委員去考察你們一再保證不會因為有小問題以後就有大問題啊所以這個部長你要督促一下來最後一個主席借給我一分鐘現在世界各國發生到一個問題就是電動行李車"},{"start":5785.031,"end":5802.923,"text":"因為它電動行李車它是有鋰電池它才會動電動行李車這個電動行李車說實在話是有危險的但是它是可以在機場裡面電動一按它就行李車"},{"start":5804.338,"end":5819.231,"text":"行李車他可以坐上去他不要走路他就可以用按的可是這個一存在的問題是鋁電池他因為很大所以行李車一上去是有危險的第二個在我們的"},{"start":5819.932,"end":5833.665,"text":"人行也就是我們機場裡面他一按他行李車他就可以去走路這些東西好世界各國現在有些國家發現問題都已經開始管理了請問部長"},{"start":5835.386,"end":5854.03,"text":"這個我們什麼時候倫敦、香港、日本、大阪、日本、名古屋現在都禁止用這些東西請問一下這是一個新問題喔博定不要當成發生事情以後你們再來管理所以本席啊特別提出這個問題讓你們去做思考"},{"start":5857.031,"end":5877.162,"text":"要如何管理如何去做規範這些東西非常重要這只要飛機一上去鋰電池的問題如果燒起來飛機那是不堪設想啊所以管理就包括安全旅客的安全跟老百姓的安全是非常重要的所以部長這個"},{"start":5878.263,"end":5901.55,"text":"我提醒你你們如何做了以後希望私底下給我一個你們如何因應的給我一個還給我們委員會一個報告好不好好這個以上這些我要特別勉勵楊董事長現在的管理真的非常重要還有部長你要督促一下好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝林委員接下來有請何清淳委員發言"},{"start":5915.74,"end":5920.93,"text":"謝謝各位 我們請陳部長還有周署長、觀光署周署長"},{"start":5925.984,"end":5947.286,"text":"部長好今天短短的時間但是我三個問題所以我們就趕快請你要盡速的來回應我來幫忙我第一個霧峰納入33國家風景處那我們從110年提案在這個過程我跟林靜儀委員還有其他在地的委員議員大家一起在"},{"start":5948.007,"end":5952.452,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":5968.343,"end":5982.173,"text":"報告委員目前那個政委那邊也已經簽合那目前是在國發會那這個部分我們回去催促我們希望在今年今年底之前看可不可以趕快來公布這件事我希望是這個月這個月好"},{"start":5983.434,"end":5994.242,"text":"現在11月了我們來努力這個月所以國發會那邊行政院那邊我也會再幫忙也希望部長這邊能夠多積極然後一旦到我們交通部觀光署也請署長馬上好不好這個我們一定加速沒有問題對因為物風這個核心群納入我覺得是對我們屯區的這個觀光是有帶動的效果而且我們的民主議政委員區也在那裡物風林家花園、光復新村這個就如同剛剛"},{"start":6011.855,"end":6032.536,"text":"部長再回答其他委員臺中有很多很多的亮點是可以打動國際遊客進來台灣觀光的那這個必須要有什麼觀光品牌那我們悟風是一個觀光品牌是一個值得政府大量資源投入來支持的一個品牌屯區需要你支持好不好這個我們一定會納入"},{"start":6032.796,"end":6060.649,"text":"對所以呢那接下來就有兩個問題要拜託部長喔第一個因為呢如果改在11月我們可以公告的話那明年度的預算我們來不及編列第一個那我們啊如果要即刻的啟動的話一年大概2000萬的管理委員的費用是不是可以請部長支持那第二個專案的籌設霧峰遊客中心那我們的可行性研究是不是也可以先上路"},{"start":6061.189,"end":6077.041,"text":"好 這個部分我們可以先來走沒有問題我們未來會有一個站然後四個同仁會在那個地方那這個部分我們的員額已經先想辦法空出來了那委員在講的這個預算我們當然也會支持啦但是我們讓觀光署這邊來調配來調配好 那是不是可以同步"},{"start":6077.481,"end":6096.409,"text":"在現在準備公告之前同步來趕快把前置作業先做好我們年度預算如果有過的話年度預算過了我們就馬上把前置作業放上去我們請所有在野的委員支持這是為了台中地方也為了中部地區大家共同來支持總預算那請部長也支持署長一定要承諾做到第二個問題我們來署長請回我們請高鐵"},{"start":6102.554,"end":6117.19,"text":"高鐵我們今天在談觀光談觀光不管是國際旅客來台灣或者是國人、國旅的觀光這個軌道運輸是最重要的大眾運輸系統那除了台鐵就是高鐵"},{"start":6117.891,"end":6130.908,"text":"高鐵我現在看到不管是我們這個產業的商務課或者是國際的觀光課甚至我們自己國人的這個使用率越來越高尤其我上次跟董事長總經理都提過我們的高鐵的台中"},{"start":6134.712,"end":6161.103,"text":"這個運量是非常大的我這樣每天上上下下我看到我們的行李放置的區域真的嚴重不足過去高鐵跟我說2021年我們已經有處理過一次有增設了這個行李放置區從45個增加到61個雖然我畫了一個問號我存疑現在高鐵的每一個列車有到61個行李存放的空間嗎"},{"start":6162.935,"end":6180.744,"text":"就我個人看大家可以上高鐵列車看看也可以問國人旅客看看目前一列的高鐵列車你說它的行李放置區可以放到61個不可能啦我不知道你這是怎麼算的啦我也不知道2021那時候是如何改裝的"},{"start":6182.164,"end":6204.624,"text":"現在就是嚴重的不足嘛不管是大行李我還看到什麼嬰幼兒車這個非常不友善我們年輕家庭要搭高鐵嬰幼兒車第一個沒有空間放那行人的通道被擋那所以旅客的權也受到影響寵物車也沒有地方放欸到目前為止還是沒有辦法解決啊來"},{"start":6206.065,"end":6218.17,"text":"報告委員我們上個禮拜那個陳彥博次長有特別為了這件事召開一次協調的會議那台鐵也已經有提出來一個具體高鐵也有提出來一個具體的這個改變的方案是不是我請總經理來"},{"start":6220.458,"end":6239.934,"text":"我先跟委員好謝謝您的指導那我先回答你剛才那個部長講的那個方案我們現在是最現有的車輛的部分的話我們打算在有15區一個列車裡面有15區做成兩層那每一層的話大概可以增加三個28吋的這個行李廂所以就多增45個換句話說從現在的61個就會增加15個加大概70"},{"start":6245.939,"end":6270.065,"text":"董事長我跟你講現在沒有61個啦你再回去算我會跟著你來算現在的列車哪裡可以放到61個的大型行李我跟委員報告齁這個61個是這樣啦我們原來就有45個那後來我們把這個一組車12節裡面有4節齁車廂我們拆掉椅子然後放成一個多一個行李區一個行李區我們可以放4個"},{"start":6271.185,"end":6276.606,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":6290.47,"end":6308.419,"text":"你完全沒有友善空間可以讓它放置所以我建議大家互相參考因為我們是找到問題要解決問題嘛我們國內外很多的列車要配置雙層層架那甚至立體化而且重新盤點你們車廂內的空間有一些閒置空間沒你使用的你可以改裝嘛"},{"start":6318.34,"end":6337.806,"text":"對不對我自己時常搭乘 裡面有電話亭我也覺得電話亭對嘛 你跟部長自己就講啦電話亭是受自殺幹什麼你這個照片所提醒的齁剛好現在要改善的方案也是讓它立體化啦變成兩層三層這樣可以使用是是是是委員報告我們就是朝這個方向在做那能夠應用的空間我們盡量用"},{"start":6338.086,"end":6343.009,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":6357.518,"end":6384.154,"text":"拉行李下來還要好拉不然你把高處拉行李有些女孩子女性甚至媽媽她是勾不到的或者是她是力氣不夠大的所以這個我覺得都要從人為本的思考點去思考如何讓這個行李的一個空間立體化、安全、好使用我覺得還包括當年你講的列車的結構安全問題嘛所以來最後那改善的期程呢"},{"start":6385.748,"end":6389.309,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":6404.235,"end":6425.334,"text":"做完的期程給我一份書面報告好不好那你們未來2026要交車陸續交車的新世代列車一定要先把這個考量行李空間的考量要納入你的設計好不好還來得及做的要做好不好已經納入這個規劃設計而且呢這個新的行李廂的容量比現在多一倍以上"},{"start":6426.175,"end":6446.587,"text":"一倍以上你還要預估喔旅客人數像剛剛我們部長承諾的喔未來的國際旅客要達到一千萬次以上喔你要先預估這個人流啊那個量你要量體要能夠預估啊你不要到時候兩年後我又來問你說阿為什麼行李又放不下了"},{"start":6447.287,"end":6473.651,"text":"好不好最後30秒我們部長來自台中兩件事台中的空港我們需要開發更多的國際航線東北亞、東南亞都是重點部長你承諾過的民航局局長也希望跟各國內或是非國應該說國內的航空公司跟國際非國籍的航空公司大家一起來努力嘛對不對國籍跟外國籍一起努力"},{"start":6474.191,"end":6493.176,"text":"是我覺得臺中機場空港真的需要部長大力支持那接著就是海港臺中的海港郵輪我們之前都掛鈴終於今年年底聽說要破蛋有一艘郵輪要進來我們希望交通部主動跟地方政府好好的把這一個"},{"start":6493.976,"end":6515.369,"text":"第一個臺中港的郵輪12月18號的這一艘郵輪靠港所有的該準備的項目所有該開發的這個地方的旅遊套裝行程所有該配合的我們是把它準備好我們希望未來能夠有更多的郵輪可以來停靠臺中港好不好好 政府會跟地方政府來溝通好 再拜託我們主動謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝何委員"},{"start":6523.993,"end":6531.075,"text":"好那待會到我本人魯明哲發言完畢之後休息10分鐘接下來有請游皓委員發言有請部長好陳部長游皓委員失聲到今天第一次發言了好好好好跟他回答"},{"start":6553.109,"end":6572.9,"text":"所以積了很多的問題想要請教但是都是很客觀的但是還是有一個問題要直接先請教一下部長現在在這個省道的部分區在風災之後很多地方在進行維修那維護甚至改善重建那我們看到"},{"start":6574.02,"end":6602.172,"text":"這個地方的縣市政府他還縣市到鄉鎮市公署他們在許多的這個道路修繕的經費其實確實是地方政府是不足的那我也直接請教這部長你以前也當過就是台中市議員也從基層出身那25年未修的這個採劃法你覺得是不是應該也要適時做一個修正那也讓這個不管是中央的省道的修繕包括地方的這些道路修繕也可以有一個合理的經費可以讓地方政府來運用"},{"start":6603.326,"end":6622.039,"text":"我所知道這25年來其實財化法沒有在修正的狀況底下中央跟地方的合作的狀況是還是不錯今年包括去年中央對於地方的補助的額度也一直在增加一直逐步在增加確實我們也一直尤其今年時常遇到一些風災的問題"},{"start":6623.32,"end":6644.818,"text":"那我所知道就是說即便不是中央管的這個道路有狀況了中央該補助的部分其實工程會那邊也都會協助其實我還是跟部長提一下當然現在你在中央部會那過去也從基層出生那在當市議員期間我們都知道縣市議員我們在看縣市政府的預算確實不足"},{"start":6645.518,"end":6670.491,"text":"那所以說才化法的修正現在在財政委員會在審查那所以我也希望說不僅是跟部長您這邊就是說明也希望說在中央部會的話大家也應該一起來支持這25年未修正的才化法那讓地方的政府他也都能夠有充足的經費來彈性的及時來修正許多的一個措施包括道路那這個問題是比較政治議題我就直接接著"},{"start":6671.671,"end":6693.917,"text":"這個我們在看今天的剛才林國成委員他講到一半就是在這個電動的這個行李箱那目前來講有沒有相關的一個規範在電動行李箱還是做這個跟環境部或是相關的單位在這個鋰電池是不是有這種火災或是爆的那個風險那有沒有相關的規範或指引"},{"start":6695.077,"end":6718.511,"text":"目前在機場的部分我剛才問起來應該是現在是由航空公司自己來規定因為那是首提行李箱不關係到拖運沒有拖運的問題那首提的部分就是看這個航空公司他們怎麼規範不過我剛有跟總經理在提到就是說我認為機場也應該要針對這件事要做規範因為這是一個新的東西啦過去沒看過所以過去或許沒有討論過規範的問題"},{"start":6720.472,"end":6739.465,"text":"好那剛剛林國成委員的提醒包含您現在的提醒我也認為那個離電池如果滿大顆會不會有危險性這個部分我認為機場應該要有一些規範那本期建議其實交通部應該直接可以來做一個主導甚至包括其他部會的部分也做一個通盤的討論因為其實它這個部分不只是在機場"},{"start":6740.586,"end":6767.202,"text":"所以剛才所提到高鐵的話其實也有看到有人在使用那所以說他這個行李箱放置的部分不管高鐵也好、台鐵也好甚至在飛機、航空機上那都是有可能使用的所以他這個安全性竟然是新的東西過去沒有在評估所以就是交通部應該是找其他的部會做一個通盤討論那在任何的一個運輸的工具上都能夠適用的一個規範或是指引那這樣子對於民眾來講應該是更為的安全好"},{"start":6768.903,"end":6793.023,"text":"這個我們來討論我們來討論好 謝謝那接著的話這個貨櫃車的議題在國道的過棒10月1號有一個新制度要上路那在這CMS的這個部分經過地棒站那有顯示就不用進站那如果沒有顯示或未依規定進站過棒會被視為逃棒還有這個就將會面臨到9萬的一個重罰"},{"start":6795.325,"end":6822.153,"text":"那這個在所謂的許多的貨運業者或者是相關的這個貨運車的司機啊這個在形容就像是內政部或交通部送給這個他們的一個過年大禮包他也就是要罰九萬元那甚至說一上車從南到北甚至還要十連抽那我想要請教一下部長那目前的這44處的一個地棒站動態的地棒系統那它設置原則為如何"},{"start":6825.854,"end":6849.081,"text":"目前為了減少非超載的車輛能夠競速的通行所以我們有設動態地棒因為動態地棒設置的標準比較高所以我們一年大概可以增加1到3處左右所以我們從108年到現在有設10處的地棒站明年也預計要再增加3個所以現在總共是多少處現在有10個所以目標會設到多少處"},{"start":6851.022,"end":6864.566,"text":"我們原則上是西部的那個國一國三都希望都把它做那目前來講的話那這個地棒站的動態地棒系統他在測量的部分他是不是在這個貨運他所裝載這20尺的貨櫃原本20.5噸就變得必須要少2.5噸變為18噸跟委員報告齁"},{"start":6872.429,"end":6894.167,"text":"那我們現在來講是說在動態地盤的部分我們是抓車因為我們現在走看到就是說貨櫃車大型車的部分它的造勢率是小車的4到5倍左右那所以我們在針對它的部分我們抓車頭35噸的車子它的煞車力道應該只控制到35噸那現在我們看車道的部分說甚至有超載30%以上的一個貨櫃車"},{"start":6895.268,"end":6900.077,"text":"所以我們是針對就是說他的貨櫃車的部分先針對那個超載嚴重的部分這個我就直接提了就是說不管是局長還是部長在今天來講在"},{"start":6908.189,"end":6926.937,"text":"這一個動態的地棒 任何的科技的一個方式來提高所謂的交通的安全 這個大家全民都能夠接受民意代表也都會接受你所剛剛提的20尺的貨櫃的部分目前我們是沒有看到後面的那個其實到最後他們會所以20尺的部分假如說針對他車頭的部分的話他應該是不會操縱的這個原則上操縱不操縱他原則上他20.5噸的部分他現在目前是會減為18"},{"start":6934.641,"end":6953.497,"text":"這個是跟對動態系統的這個部分來走跟對動態地方沒有關係但是我直接提了就是說在這一個部分的降的這個空間那他其實當初的他希望能夠去降是因為大貨車的這個事故但目前來講的話警政署提供的資料"},{"start":6954.258,"end":6981.499,"text":"其實許多的交通事故它是源於這個就是疲勞駕駛第一名那甚至說駕駛的時候不當分心包括使用手機等等那在目前新上路的這個法規啊那還是要幫這些客運司機來反映如果說今天超載的東西那這個該開罰就該開罰那不管是動態過棒的部分以及說要下修他們20.5到18噸的這個部分那其實事情還是要有一個合理性"},{"start":6982.159,"end":7001.901,"text":"那如果說今天來講是因為疲勞駕駛或者是駕車時間分審但是卻直接用這樣子來去降低他本身可以去載的戶的提高他們所謂的這個營業成本那回頭來講貨運業者所在的是百工百業在的是五金各行各業的用品"},{"start":7002.421,"end":7020.798,"text":"那所以他所衍生出來的是物價上漲所以本席還是在這裡提出在這個部分的調降其實業者相關的意見跟時機相關的意見其實大家都知道那我們所擔心的還是在於這樣子的運輸成本的提升會造成的是整體物價提升所以還是要有一個合理性在好我們會再檢討謝謝委員"},{"start":7044.397,"end":7053.961,"text":"請魯明哲委員發言好 謝謝主席有請我們交通部陳世凱部長有請部長觀光署周署長請署長好 謝謝兩位謝謝委員我想觀光立國"},{"start":7067.054,"end":7089.345,"text":"是很多人的一個期待因為臺灣四面環海相關的一些資源我們希望透過觀光來帶給我們的國民有更多的一個經濟各方面的一個收入那我們也看到我們賴總統競選的政策上面特別寫觀光立國世界臺灣那時候我們知道我們部長也是重要的應該是發言人"},{"start":7090.445,"end":7116.491,"text":"那在這中間的當年的一個願景現在當選了520也上任了然後這個發言人也變成我們交通部部長主管觀光署的一個相關的一個督導這樣的一個業務那當然當時兩個目標嘛2030年希望讓我們觀光產業可能包括國旅啦能夠希望超過兆元的產業那去年600萬人有達到喔 有達到喔"},{"start":7117.492,"end":7129.986,"text":"在不遠的將來我以為他講不遠的將來是今年照這樣看還有一點距離能夠突破一千萬在這種情況之下我想這是不光是賴總統的一個期待"},{"start":7132.528,"end":7156.425,"text":"那也是我們這個國民的一個期待甚至觀光產業鏈上面很多的業界他已經苦等了他的等待那我在想齁這個值跟量都很重要到底有多少的旅客不管是國旅外來的一個旅客他的量要提升我們希望量增加的時候他的值能夠來這邊消費的也能夠提升"},{"start":7158.243,"end":7182.003,"text":"那我在想前一陣子聽到我們的部長說我們原本去年立的今年的外來的觀光旅客要有1200萬人次然後在今年的4月1號前部長調到了1000萬那我在10月份你又調到了750萬那整體跟1200萬可以講"},{"start":7186.382,"end":7208.272,"text":"我目標還是不變我在委員會其實講了很多次不是750萬不是我說的是務實一定能達到的是750萬但是前線的同仁還在努力當中我作為部長不可以把目標往下修所以目標還是1000萬所以現在目標還是1000萬還是1000萬但是也就是跟明年你剛剛說的目標明年目標還是1000萬但是結果不太確定"},{"start":7208.872,"end":7236.446,"text":"如果今年達到一千萬我明年一定會再往上拉但今年如果沒有達到一千萬你覺得今年務實便大概最多大概750萬上下嘛按照你的說法好我們再看現在的一個問題因為剛剛看到我們部長簡報那觀光署長報告的時間比較久那我幫你們做一個結論現在觀光的一個整個一個臺灣觀光產業的一個情況基本上我來簡單形容一下好了就是"},{"start":7237.586,"end":7245.797,"text":"不滿意但是應該國人就是現狀應該可以接受不滿意但可以接受第二個呢那有困難"},{"start":7247.301,"end":7273.814,"text":"大部分八成是其他人的一直跌啊其他的因素從疫情開始大概有一兩成一兩成也有自己的因素可是我是覺得尤其我們的署長因為我們觀光署當時成立的他的用心他的目的大家的期待到底是什麼我覺得你要不定的時間點你都要反瞻從零開始那我們來看一下"},{"start":7274.912,"end":7284.922,"text":"我們的觀光產業到底發生了什麼樣的一個情況從數字上來看這大家都說了嘛在疫情前我們拿了3年106到108年平均都有1000萬大概接近1200萬的一個從"},{"start":7291.698,"end":7298.705,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":7316.041,"end":7341.101,"text":"我是覺得來臺的人數並沒有跟世界差太多但到今年其實很意外今年對於很多的一個國家是一個大復甦觀光大跳躍復甦的一個情況那這個部分我先問一下署長好不好當然我這邊是講1到8月啦也許最後那個限條會到750萬最後會小的上揚但就現況來講497萬"},{"start":7343.857,"end":7347.772,"text":"那署長你也是這個觀光臺灣觀光協會你是在那裡什麼職務啊"},{"start":7350.745,"end":7374.12,"text":"鐵道觀光台灣觀光協會之前是我們葉菊仁會長現在是簡會長您在裡面擔當什麼職務因為我們都有一些等於是指導你是民意董事啦續聘民意董事啦那很多的補助啊協助的經費都是觀光署的一個預算啦這我們都知道啦沒有問題大家一起做那可是"},{"start":7375.307,"end":7401.973,"text":"到底發生什麼事因為你們整個報告就在想我們怎麼樣不滿意好像還是可以接受你要跟世界比到底怎麼樣那就請教一下在台灣官方協會這個準政府的一個社團好不好辦政府的一個社團裡面你有沒有看到他現在他的網頁第一頁國際趨勢是什麼在今年度第一季全世界的旅遊他說恢復到大概97%全世界"},{"start":7404.193,"end":7430.166,"text":"他預估2024年預估全世界大概成長2%我覺得我不是要所以你現在覺得他這個數字是亂講的是要趕快拿掉在這個我們現在是檢疫院董事長在他的網頁你覺得他說法是胡說八道還是講真的跟委員報告因為我沒有看那個實際的數字不過看起來聽起來是應該是原來的2030年的百筆書"},{"start":7432.847,"end":7444.275,"text":"政策白皮書的一些分析那其實跟委員報告這張圖表裡面其實也要特別報告一下0403的這個地震對我們的衝擊真的很大"},{"start":7445.913,"end":7472.764,"text":"原來還是第一季的時候我們還信心滿滿不過在4月的時候我們就全球都有一個安心宣言其實我們覺得因為大家分不清楚花蓮跟台灣是等號的所以我們就必須要講說除了花蓮以外其他其實還是很安心可以旅遊所以也必須要我們現在確實像部長講的我們第四季是一個蠻重要的我們還是往前衝"},{"start":7475.367,"end":7488.884,"text":"這個是直接的一個數字大家都知道的那當然我們覺得有幾個指標我覺得你們自己要真的要去注意這個問題的一個有沒有如果當有一些事情習慣習慣好像沒事產生結構性變化的時候是回不來的"},{"start":7489.545,"end":7511.404,"text":"你準備好也回不來的我們看到在疫情前的三年的平均一年可能不準三年的平均當然都是我們出國的人數會比較人次比較多然後從國外來台灣旅客的旅客人比較少在疫情前三年的平均大概出國人多1.47倍"},{"start":7512.765,"end":7521.929,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":7539.978,"end":7552.463,"text":"部長,你清楚嗎?是,這個我清楚啦我覺得NHK一直在擴大那是一個非常對本國來講我們的觀光業來講是一個很不健康的一個趨勢那這個部分我們當然要努力來改變"},{"start":7553.584,"end":7578.521,"text":"其實這個東西蠻危險的第一個是說我們都講說互相尊重平等我有來你有去大家互相努力大家一起努力日本、韓國或者美國、歐洲大家來來去去盡量透過一些協調有同樣的一個資源在觀光的產業裡面不要出現太多的一個逆差可是因為我發覺這樣的一個第一個逆差"},{"start":7579.361,"end":7589.551,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":7604.91,"end":7622.15,"text":"現在已經很多的包括遊覽車因為很多路線都沒有了嘛司機也沒有他的車他也不開了會造成整個價格上升你等到再開放的時候台灣的環境成一個惡性的循環更貴然後大家更不來你會不會擔心這樣的一個情況"},{"start":7623.331,"end":7642.312,"text":"當然委員剛剛所提醒的這個惡性循環的狀況我們也在觀察那也非常擔心我們希望不要發生確實委員在講的遊覽車的部分缺工是個議題然後生意也是個議題那他們的這個數字如果起不來或者是下降對未來如果我們要爭取更多的旅客進來是不利的"},{"start":7642.984,"end":7660.01,"text":"跟委員報告下在戰略上來講我們跟韓國很像也就是出國大概就是會比來臺的數字大概會差1比2的概念所以台灣這是一個自由市場所以國旅是蠻重要的"},{"start":7660.49,"end":7677.282,"text":"所以怎麼樣支撐國旅那個旅次其實還是可以帶動因為我時間真的不夠了好吧那我就把我的一個想法講一講因為準備這個資料也蠻花精神的那我還沒提到你先提到韓國嘛我們的韓國很像我現在真的希望我們跟韓國很像"},{"start":7678.903,"end":7700.065,"text":"除了這個比較之外我們來看看就是說另外一指標來看那大家都復甦嘛我的想法說我們現在說我們降下來我們復甦多少不公平啊也許不公平啊其他國家都沒做到平常我們做到我們鄰近的國家跟我們類似的比我們更爛都有那坦白講那我還要給你數大拇指那到底發生什麼事的遠的我就不敢比了嘛好不好"},{"start":7700.666,"end":7721.022,"text":"那臺灣到目前為止都一樣前面8個月喔都前面8個月喔這不是一年對一年喔那前面一個都是2019年全年喔疫情前的在臺灣跟2019年以國外外國的旅客來臺的人數到目前為止前8個月跟那一年對比付出比例是42%韓國"},{"start":7724.329,"end":7727.85,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":7748.916,"end":7756.679,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":7774.854,"end":7786.784,"text":"問題是這樣嗎?問題不是啦因為我們今天不是要講大陸啦跟港澳啦那我們都知道少很多啦以前8個月來比較大陸、港澳來台的人數少了67%這個不談嘛因為這個你們沒辦法主導的不談這個可是我們覺得日本"},{"start":7791.567,"end":7807.411,"text":"你們說匯率嘛日本也比同期2019年同期少了40%韓國也比同期少了13.7%整個歐洲歐洲來台的旅客也整體少了10%我想這樣的"},{"start":7812.662,"end":7813.443,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":7827.622,"end":7828.963,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":7844.136,"end":7873.211,"text":"如果找藉口是真的比較簡單只要噴口水在原地不動所以我在這邊拜託你們今天提的一個報告我們希望你們在私下多找一些是屬於我們自己可以改善的理由也許不用報告給我們聽我們真的希望在明年能夠快速的追上您有沒有信心好 我們努力會有信心好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝盧銘正委員發言也謝謝部長那現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7893.612,"end":7906.743,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園"},{"start":7914.762,"end":7918.906,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":7932.011,"end":7949.801,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園"},{"start":7953.704,"end":7970.418,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":7976.322,"end":7999.151,"text":"第4屆選交通委員會主席我不是希望能夠多餘的選擇包含歐洲、包含歐洲、包含歐洲、包含歐洲、包含歐洲、包含歐洲、包含歐洲、包含歐洲、包含歐洲"},{"start":8008.303,"end":8019.946,"text":"如果金融的目標一千萬沒有達到,我們一定會向前衝如果一千萬沒有達到的話,我們一定會向前衝如果目標沒有達到的話,我們一定會向前衝欸 怎樣"},{"start":8026.368,"end":8037.098,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8048.306,"end":8061.612,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8069.795,"end":8083.326,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8096.295,"end":8101.817,"text":"有限公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8116.783,"end":8132.018,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8134.901,"end":8137.742,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8163.736,"end":8170.699,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園"},{"start":8185.785,"end":8204.77,"text":"這公司其實是在進行修改,所以針對所有周邊的貨輪、航空貨輪是大型航空公司,他們有保險公司公務員那所以目前擱淺的狀況,就像這次的大陸的這個工廠,它這個擱淺的狀況,保險公司都被開放了"},{"start":8209.999,"end":8216.49,"text":"應變的措施其實在我們還沒發動之前如果發動以來失去動力的一段時間就沒有任何應變方式作用"},{"start":8221.988,"end":8243.072,"text":"包括台東還沒來之前我們就先落實所有的幹部都必須要離開12台這個動作其實都有做到目前的規範就是12台離開到12台離開那這個部分在台東之前都有落實那之後是因為它是運動運動才發生現在的事情那在它進行運動第一時間我們就已經在啟動波長"},{"start":8253.055,"end":8271.903,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8275.698,"end":8285.686,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園"},{"start":8287.982,"end":8314.277,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8316.777,"end":8338.107,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8341.508,"end":8365.18,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8369.943,"end":8393.899,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園"},{"start":8407.278,"end":8428.909,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8455.89,"end":8456.95,"text":"好,我們繼續開會接下來有請陳樹悅委員發言"},{"start":8464.65,"end":8465.211,"text":"謝謝召委謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長還有觀光署周署長"},{"start":8486.409,"end":8499.174,"text":"部長、署長早安我們看到上個禮拜五賴總統他有公開提到就是說台灣以觀光立國所以我們要以這個這樣的一個施政的一個願景來推動觀光產業也要讓台灣的觀光符合國際永續發展的潮流那他也強調觀光是國家的軟實力也是堅實的外交的力量所以公部門跟民間一定要跨領域、跨區域的合作"},{"start":8514.299,"end":8528.634,"text":"中央跟地方也要密切的溝通一起提升深度旅遊跟特色旅遊的品質跟行銷所以觀光產業的發展是很重要的非常重要可是我們看到就是說在今年6月18號這個"},{"start":8531.957,"end":8550.43,"text":"瑞士的洛杉磯學院它有公布了2024年IMD世界競爭力的這個排名那我們看到我們台灣的這個整個排名是退步的只有基礎建設是有進步的那其中這個觀光的收入佔GDP的這個佔比是其中這個經濟表現的項目這個是退步的所以這個是一個很就是實際的這樣子一個數字"},{"start":8558.536,"end":8575.924,"text":"那我們看到今天其實我也很多委員都有提到以目前就是說疫情之後我們的這個觀光人數而入境跟出境的這個人次的一個比較我們旅客出境的人次已經達到了就是在8月份就達到1138萬"},{"start":8577.585,"end":8578.726,"text":"有限公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8602.017,"end":8608.902,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8629.677,"end":8652.308,"text":"報告委員那個目標還是沒有變我重申過好幾次我在委員會裡面講好幾次就是說前線的同仁們還在努力爭取國際的旅客要來台灣所以那個目標我作為部長不會做下修目標還是1000萬但如果要務實一點講我在前幾週的說法是說我們務實一點說有可能達到的人次750萬是相對比較務實的"},{"start":8654.269,"end":8670.799,"text":"那我現在聽到觀光署給我比較更樂觀一點的說法有機會750到800萬我們希望能夠達到800萬務實的人數大概是這個樣子那當然我們現在第4季是台灣觀光很重要的旺季那我們也把握這個時間在國際媒體上面做大量的曝光"},{"start":8672.4,"end":8696.771,"text":"之前有報告過就是一些代言人的部分在韓國也好在日本也好代言人的部分當然有做但另外對於我們自己臺灣的觀光的品牌臺灣觀光3.0的這個品牌我們目前國際的行銷正在大力的推廣那我們相信後面的這兩個月我們要把握這個旺季如果不要再有天災不要再有颱風我們希望這兩個月有機會可以讓臺灣的觀光人士能夠突破800萬"},{"start":8697.827,"end":8726.603,"text":"那可以請部長講一下您樂觀的這個原因、條件讓國人可以有信心樂觀的條件一方面第1世紀本來就是台灣的觀光的旺季那二方面我看觀光署最近在努力國際宣傳的部分我看整個通路的狀況都還不錯那點閱的次數也蠻高的願意來臺的人士我想在這一兩個月有看得出來ITF那邊看起來的那個數字看起來的狀況有比較樂觀一些"},{"start":8727.783,"end":8754.523,"text":"您是就目前客觀的一個條件來評估可是就是說就我們政府部門有什麼樣積極的一個政策積極的政策對於未來未來我們也跟地方政府大家在配合100個觀光的亮點我們目前正在行銷這100個觀光亮點除了行銷之外要把它建置得更好那我有拜託觀光署這邊幫我們更聚焦因為坦白說你叫國際觀光客去看100個亮點那是不可能的"},{"start":8755.323,"end":8776.068,"text":"所以我們可能聚焦過去在講日月潭、太魯閣、阿里山當太魯閣一受損之後大家就不太願意來我們是不是有其他更大的亮點可以讓國際看到目前我們正在盤點我們希望能夠盤點出更好的亮點讓國際觀光客看到目前觀光署有公布了台灣觀光100亮點先請教一下署長這個100個亮點是怎麼評選出來的"},{"start":8781.125,"end":8804.622,"text":"對,我們除了過去的一些人次包括了我們有一個雙年曆那麼最重要的是我們把22縣市任務的觀光手長一起就是說你覺得自己的縣、自己的市哪一個是最重要的亮點然後再加上我們國家公園署的國家公園還有林業署的林業"},{"start":8805.603,"end":8808.487,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8818.318,"end":8826.626,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8837.136,"end":8852.278,"text":"所以我們應該這個唯一的環島的系統怎麼樣透過區域旅遊的方式把柄做大也謝謝委員長期來幫我們協助那中區的中台灣我們也希望能夠是一個台灣一個非常重要的一個發展"},{"start":8853.095,"end":8868.853,"text":"是 因為我看了這100個亮點就彰化縣的部分是列了扇形車庫、八卦山大佛、鹿港老街田野公路花園還有台灣優格餅乾學院可是我覺得我們彰化處處是亮點我覺得這樣子好像有一株之憾"},{"start":8870.154,"end":8874.016,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":8887.922,"end":8889.382,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8908.067,"end":8932.237,"text":"這也是兩個部分啦第一部分就是雖然他沒有在擺大亮點但是不表示他不是亮點那我們也會按照這個滾動式的檢討第二個我們其實有一些補助的機制跟這個軟硬體的這個協助那如果是這種所謂的我們的叫漁港觀光觀光漁港漁港的方式來推動我覺得台灣有非常多的那這個東西"},{"start":8934.078,"end":8944.404,"text":"這個應該也是我們一個很重要的賣點我們也跟商劃線再一起討論一下是 好 那就這個觀光產業的部分就是這個推觀光100亮點然後交通部也有宣稱說要拼這個8千億的這個觀光產值所以這個拼這樣子的一個觀光產值的話當然就是除了國際旅客之外這個國旅也是同樣非常的一個重要"},{"start":8959.634,"end":8960.957,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":8971.042,"end":8990.432,"text":"我清楚因為很多國人在說住宿的價格這是個問題那第二個問題就是住宿的品質也是個問題那我們也跟旅館公會有跟他們有做很多次的溝通我相信署長也時常跟他們在做溝通其實還是有一些比較便宜的旅宿可以讓旅客可以來投宿"},{"start":8991.152,"end":9008.915,"text":"那這個部分我覺得應該要做一個宣傳讓大家知道說其實有貴的啦不過也有便宜的可以提供給大家那是不是讓大家可以去選擇也願意去這樣子是好就是說因為我們要真的達到以觀光立國就是如同我們賴總統說的就是要"},{"start":9009.155,"end":9018.897,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9036.223,"end":9039.504,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭偉接下來有請林俊憲委員發言好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳部長陳部長還有公路總局陳文睿局長陳局長"},{"start":9068.88,"end":9084.53,"text":"董事長今天跟你探討一下這條路我在上個禮拜有去會勘這條路在台南惡名昭彰這個是台19甲線台19甲線就是新化的外環道"},{"start":9086.192,"end":9100.143,"text":"我相信你可能要照過了 新華你知道嗎新華我還沒去過 就是這條線大概沒走過新華你還沒去過那新那新華有一個老街啦在古崎嶇啦就是來 上一講就新華那個老街齁"},{"start":9105.518,"end":9132.963,"text":"這裡這裡喔那昇華市區阿他那個老街阿大概只有12米啦你如果去過昇華你就知道喔他那十二米的那旁邊都是一些古建築我們才撈下來叫做昇華老街那12米那車輛進出當然就車輛量小嘛所以那時候就開闢這個黃色的這個叫外環道就是這個外環道阿現在可能是臺南外環道裡面喔我看全台灣來比阿大概比最爛的"},{"start":9134.326,"end":9137.668,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9151.499,"end":9177.902,"text":"就是他南北兩個路南北兩個坐向一個是往一個是新化往北就是他站在往北這裡往南這裡往到關廟那中間就是我今天要講的這個外環島我以平均車流量往南到往北車流量都差不多一萬多但是新化外環島的車流量只有兩千多我們再回上一張"},{"start":9179.42,"end":9200.883,"text":"所以你懂我意思吧就是說他下面的車道啊很多車那上面也很多車反而外環道啊沒有車為什麼他不願意走那不願意走你知道再回去塞那個舊的那條12米的小路嘛那你外環道就失去了它的作用"},{"start":9202.382,"end":9219.91,"text":"這條歐安道在2014年、2015年花了17億30米的很寬的一條那設計不良在什麼地方他第一年就撞死5個人等下就失火的人然後他趕快去亂改號誌"},{"start":9222.062,"end":9242.288,"text":"那改良也沒辦法改善啦 過去6年來過去6年 我跟你算車禍數字啦過去6年啦 新華的多寬度啦車禍發生200八十幾件A2啦 但是有人受傷的 有人輕重傷的223件 剩下車禍消容的61件啦 人家發生200八十幾件車禍就表示這 第一個 這條車的流量那麼小 沒有人要走"},{"start":9252.281,"end":9278.511,"text":"沒有人要走反而車禍還發生那麼多件那可見這個道路已經是非常可怕了那工種也擺爛了那放在那裡有沒有管理啊已經跟你們反映很多次了那這次我上個禮拜就會刊了總算工種有提出計畫短中長期要把改善這條道路這條道路我們再下一張"},{"start":9280.325,"end":9285.809,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9298.53,"end":9324.077,"text":"那你怎麼去...你的人要怎麼走到人行道?你怎麼走不上去?一邊機車道一邊快車道啊你人根本走不...沒辦法走到人行道啊而且他很高耶,他頭一米多高啦那老人家你背不上去啦當時設計應該是有問題那你現在啊,長期計劃要把這個打掉啦你扔了要打掉它啦"},{"start":9325.326,"end":9333.871,"text":"因為法律上你設計它是人行道所以你要把它打掉要再做環差但是這要如果不可以繼續擺爛你昇華外環島你媽想要壓蓋"},{"start":9338.687,"end":9363.139,"text":"我請充分的局長來是你了解這個案子嗎有有有謝謝委員10月29號會刊那短中長期就是長期的部分確實就像委員說的因為他現在有那個快慢車分隔道分隔帶然後這個直行的跟右轉的其實會有一些車流的問題那人行又擺在那個快慢車分隔道所以我們大概基本上就是說長期會做這個環差把這個"},{"start":9365.52,"end":9369.323,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":9391.414,"end":9399.296,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9419.557,"end":9443.805,"text":"那個大車啊,大車在這裡右轉啊,沒有專用號誌啊所以經常會擦撞,我們弄到機車就開車給你收攏所以這個部分的號誌啊,這個短期內啊,要馬上去做啦外港有很多市政府交通局去啦所以市政府交通局,因為號誌的地方他要管嘛所以你公眾要跟我講,跟市府的交通局做一個配合嘛,那要隨機做啦以前給我答應12月喔"},{"start":9448.551,"end":9466.776,"text":"12天你短期就要把它做完啊好啊 中期就是你趕快去做那個標線的設計那標線要重畫啦對標線要重畫啊啊 但是沒應用啦 你要同步進行啦你今天做反差啦你把那個安裝到補都給卡掉了對 沒有錯你開17天 一個月的車都2000幾台你沒差錢 你要後備做"},{"start":9473.99,"end":9477.057,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9483.069,"end":9485.111,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9504.631,"end":9529.993,"text":"那是很恐怖的,兩年以外6年發生280多件大小車禍,這實在很可怕希望短長期,我們在短期內今年年底前應該就要看到了那中長期再請公眾這裡加油,光陰安坐著感謝駁斗,感謝主席好,謝謝林委員接下來有請廖宣祥委員發言"},{"start":9545.728,"end":9548.571,"text":"好謝謝召委齁那這個麻煩一樣請我們的陳部長陳部長還有周署長周署長"},{"start":9558.749,"end":9582.923,"text":"好部長今天其實看了我們的這個第一張就好我們這個看一下今天我們的這個報告其實有點小小失望啦都在講我們好的一面啦那其實就是觀光有點問題我們稍微才會排今天這個會議嘛我們都寫說啊我們這個可能比跟去年比成長了多少恢復到疫情前多少都講好的講正面的啊真正的問題好像我們自己不敢點出來啦其實我覺得"},{"start":9584.315,"end":9595.752,"text":"面對問題啦我們要勇敢的面對問題那我們的問題才會被解決啦好不好希望我們這樣的態度來討論這觀光議題啦那我想先這個跟部長跟署長確認一下為什麼我們要推動觀光產業為什麼要推動觀光產業"},{"start":9602.659,"end":9629.519,"text":"觀光產業本來就是經濟的一部分對嘛賺錢嘛很簡單賺錢啦所以說就是賺錢啦簡單講就是人民要賺錢那我們在常常在做觀光統計的時候我們常常就統計到相關的人次嘛對不對那既然我們是以賺錢為目的雖然說有點庸俗啦但以賺錢為目的喔這個人均的消費也相當重要嘛對不對我們過去大概這個一直以來討論都人次的問題啦那我們這個我們現在也有在討論永續跟數位的部分"},{"start":9631.661,"end":9655.734,"text":"是 那大概去年啦 我覺得2023年我們觀光署的資料那來臺旅客大概650萬人嘛 那我們出境的旅客大概1180萬人大概是這樣的數字喔 那差距差距很大 那實際上我們的觀光會差絕對不是這樣子的數字差距而已 因為我們還要乘上我們的人均嘛 對不對那我們來臺人均啦 這個應該也是我們觀光署統計的啦 我們來臺人均大概"},{"start":9656.594,"end":9660.117,"text":"公司董事長、外交部國家公園署公司董事長、外交部國家公園署公司"},{"start":9679.835,"end":9683.198,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9703.219,"end":9704.462,"text":"這個你們有檢討過為什麼為什麼我們這個消費的人均的花費會差到1.5倍嗎?"},{"start":9713.066,"end":9741.965,"text":"跟委員報告一下有幾個因素啦第一個我們一般的買機票都不是在國內都是當地國算消費所以是不算來臺的這些的這個所謂的消費數個人均阿對那要扣掉的第二個就是說疫情之後其實結果改變了也就是休閒旅次跟商務旅次其實有很多是混搭的那也就是說他們現在的旅遊成本比疫情之前還墊高"},{"start":9743.767,"end":9771.869,"text":"那這些因素都是我們在分析的過程裡面但是我們也發現到現在20歲到40歲這個應該是出國跟來台灣應該都會有影響啦你剛剛講的因素應該出國跟來台灣都會有影響嘛所以我們在算的時候就先算來台灣的這些經濟的因素啦對啊出國也是嘛那差距這麼大那其實我剛剛部長你剛剛有看到我們的這個通影片嘛其實我覺得我們就是要徹底去分析我們要去"},{"start":9773.018,"end":9791.032,"text":"比較細的去分析我們才能知道我們的利基點在哪裡我們的缺點在哪裡那其實從我們來臺旅客跟國人出國旅客的年齡層的分布大概就可以看得出來我們的這個為什麼我們人均來臺人均為什麼比出國人均還低我們來臺旅客的主要年齡層大概集中在20到39歲"},{"start":9794.036,"end":9795.978,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9809.244,"end":9816.151,"text":"這個人次的統計大概就是從40歲開始就是20到29這符合我們的經濟狀況啦這20剛出社會比較經濟狀況不是那麼好30到39好一點所以出國人變多到了40到49人又更多了所以相對起來從我們的這個"},{"start":9827.683,"end":9844.435,"text":"國人出國跟來臺旅客人次的年齡層分佈大概可以看得出來這應該也是可以分析的一個點可以知道為什麼那我們是不是也可以從我們的年齡層的分佈可以看得出來我們國家為什麼比較吸引20到39歲的旅客"},{"start":9845.296,"end":9872.077,"text":"而反而不是高年齡層經濟能力比較好的一些旅客我們有曾經做過這樣的分析嗎我們的基點在哪裡為什麼年輕人喜歡來但是相對經濟能力比較好的外國人他為什麼比較少來我們有沒有做過分析或者說部長您的判斷會不會怎麼樣報告委員我覺得以你這張圖這樣看這你們的啦觀光署的以這張圖看起來我覺得在年齡層比較高的比較有消費能力這是我們未來要努力去爭取的一個面向"},{"start":9872.637,"end":9895.889,"text":"那他們的經濟能力好比較沒有那麼多來台灣的因素有可能他們不曉得台灣有符合他們經濟水準或者是說他們喜好的那個消費的面向那這個部分或許我們在宣傳面上可以多一些讓國際的這個例如說40到49啊50到59經濟能力比較好的這個族群他們能夠多理解台灣在這方面的消費的狀況可以符合他們的需求"},{"start":9896.329,"end":9924.979,"text":"所以這樣就是很明確的TA雖然說這都是一個觀光的一塊大餅但是每一個消費的人群他都有自己可能消費的傾向那我們就可能針對我們優勢在哪邊那我們怎麼再加強缺點在哪邊為什麼會有缺點我們來補足那我們的整體的觀光才會進步我不是還一個口號我不是很喜歡看到口號的東西我希望看到實際一點的東西那就優劣分析那我希望能夠對我們未來的觀光有很大的幫助那另外屢次這個落差"},{"start":9925.819,"end":9928.88,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":9950.805,"end":9954.587,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":9979.359,"end":10003.295,"text":"條件不能夠這個有條限次來談但是確實在這段時間內我們可以看到陸方有善意的陸方有善意的那我們這邊有沒有引以任何善意的方案來回應不一定是他提的方案嘛委員您說的善意齁臺灣的善意更早在今年的年初其實我們就已經開放團客可以到中國是阿花取消了嘛但對岸到現在還沒有開放團客來臺灣對善意來講的話臺灣其實更早對那沒關係他們現在已經有"},{"start":10007.518,"end":10031.455,"text":"我們給的比較多沒關係他們目前我們給的比較多沒關係那他們有承諾他們的旅客到我們外島來那我們會不會因應他們來到我們的外島我們來提出一些其他的措施這個我們節成歡迎啊善意是互相堆疊的啦善意是互相堆疊不是說指責你每天只來指責指責來指責去那就不會進步了嘛善意會很多對 而是人家有善意回應我們現在張開雙手歡迎那我們這邊是不是有一些善意的方案能夠來回應他"},{"start":10037.119,"end":10059.231,"text":"那相對起來善意是層層堆疊的好不好我希望既然剛剛我們講到觀光為了什麼是為了賺錢嘛那為了我們國人能夠賺錢那我們應該是彼此吃出善意而不是彼此來指責說你怎麼哪邊沒做好他指責我們台灣沒開放的航客你指責他沒有來那個他沒有不能自由行來連自由行都不能來早上開也不能來阿這樣子永遠不會有進步嗎"},{"start":10060.532,"end":10081.28,"text":"好不好 是好不好 這個我知道或許你們也不能夠做足啦我們來歡迎他們就嘴巴講嘛 好不好彼此釋出善意我相信都會對台灣的觀光有進步啦那另外還有一點我要跟部長確認一下我們現在高鐵延伸以來呢目前還做二階環評嘛那明年底預計明年底完成嘛"},{"start":10081.994,"end":10102.023,"text":"那這個部分其實在之前應該是王國才部長的時候我大概有提過啦我有建議說平溪是不是能夠設一站那時候他有說在評估嘛那後來我有確認一下我跟局長確認一下我們的如果說平溪要設一站的話在環評通過之後還有沒有機會還是說這個東西要設站必須要在環評裡面一併要呈報通過的時候才能設站"},{"start":10109.358,"end":10128.101,"text":"理論上要一併要怎樣要一併要一併嘛所以照我們目前鐵道局的方案平溪站目前是沒有設站的計畫嘛 是這樣是的是的那沒關係我不想因為一個平溪站影響到延伸宜蘭這個整體的進度我們黃平照走但我們是不是能夠"},{"start":10130.489,"end":10151.397,"text":"預留設置的空間如果說要補相關的環評的程序的話未來有機會再來做審查我們可不可以承諾我我們在延伸宜蘭這條線的時候經過平行的時候預留可以涉戰的一個機會那後續再來努力可不可以承諾我們再跟委員報告不要報告啊部長對不對"},{"start":10154.248,"end":10175.667,"text":"因為要設站其實也牽扯到說在站體那邊周圍的整個都市計劃的部分是還要再跟地方政府要再來商討是所以那個程序應該會蠻長而且規模應該會蠻大的對所以我也不希望影響到往宜蘭的這條線來做嘛那我們預留我只是要求預留也不叫你設包委員因為事實上是有些技術上的問題我再跟委員報告是"},{"start":10177.568,"end":10197.005,"text":"好啦好啦好啦,這個東西我們在想,因為我沒看過你們的可行性評估啦,綜合國家報告我也沒看過,不知道為什麼你們當初為什麼不設好,再來討論,那我希望真的可以考慮一下,剛剛講到觀光,憑新一年來的多少旅客那為什麼,剛剛講的,回到剛剛講的,年輕人他搭乘大眾運輸的能力其實是比較強的,那火車轉來轉去,相對起來如果有高鐵的話"},{"start":10201.329,"end":10214.037,"text":"高年齡層的人就能夠來啦對不對 其實大眾運輸工具也是觀光的一環嘛好不好 我們做得越健全 我們的觀光也越好嘛這是井井相扣的好不好 那再拜託部長 再拜託我們的局長 謝謝好 謝謝廖委員接下來有請陳學生委員發言好 謝謝主席 是不是請交通部陳部長陳部長"},{"start":10232.176,"end":10260.064,"text":"還有航港局業局長航港局業局長部長早安委員長我接續剛才廖委員的質詢平潭啊平潭上一次我到北京去跟對方聊到就是說他有兩個一個是馬祖先開馬祖先讓他進來小三通那第二個就是平潭跟台北之間的直航"},{"start":10261.525,"end":10280.86,"text":"我有跟議員長討論過你平潭到台北的直航現在我們講的是雙向對等問題是我們沒有船要過去人家有船要過來為什麼我們不放?您知道嗎?"},{"start":10282.369,"end":10307.518,"text":"其實這個旅運上要有需求我們的船不過去可能旅運上還真的沒有那個需求在臺灣人要去平潭的可能不多應該是這樣會吐死了那平潭過來讓他過來嘛他入客來有什麼關係呢其實雙向虧損是虧他起碼要虧1億2億喔他那個會虧損其實聽起來不太合理他虧損是他的事啊他有船啊我們起碼沒有虧損嘛那你現在來個對等的問題來你來個對等的問題來啦這對等的問題是"},{"start":10312.18,"end":10326.679,"text":"對等你沒有船他歡迎你也對等你也可以對等你台灣哪一條船我平台哪一條船對不對有需求就會有船現在問題是沒有需求你沒有船有需求就會有船有需求也沒有船"},{"start":10328.394,"end":10341.891,"text":"有需求自然航商沙頭生意有人做車本生意沒人做沒有任何一條船要去跑你問業局長有沒有船要跑你起碼花一億到兩億我告訴你一年至少一億到兩億你認為勒他跑讓他跑嘛對不對"},{"start":10348.361,"end":10374.29,"text":"現在就是說兩岸客運的部分除了小三通之外空運的直航也都是非常便捷現在小三通的平均載客率大概只有六成左右所以現在整個需求特別是大三通你先不要講這個你現在講陸客不來吧對不對我上次到北京跟他們談他說第一個馬祖先開放小三通第二個就是平潭直航台北"},{"start":10375.22,"end":10402.646,"text":"平壇、浙江、臺北他的船要過來,你不讓他過來為什麼不讓他過來?你有對等的問題說我一條船去,你一條船過來那你讓他跑嘛我跟他們講過了,平壇到臺北比福州到臺北更遠會吐死啦,上船就發O2代他跑幾次他就停掉了那你何必給他一個藉口?他團客來喔你就讓他來嘛,是不是?"},{"start":10403.854,"end":10427.711,"text":"我想這個層次當然是國安會的層次啦我覺得部長你應該要提一提好不好好好那另外就是這個我們聯家行業啊虧損多少錢現在葉局長你知道嗎對跟委員報告依照縣府所提的這個數字呢當然累積戶口大概1億1.1億左右對啊他只有5800萬現在還要去向台灣銀行借"},{"start":10431.698,"end":10450.553,"text":"他欠韓商的錢怎麼可以客戶再來不給他沒有錢啊你懂了沒有那沒有錢你航空局你有你依照這個什麼大眾運輸條例你有輔導他嘛對不對我們有補助一年2055億問題那個錢是不夠的是不是夜夜咬回去你再"},{"start":10453.655,"end":10480.168,"text":"這個輪動式的再檢討一下好不好是根本報告就是說第一個剛剛部長已經提到每年我們大概每年編的是2.55億包括離島基金跟公務預算那現在縣府這邊有提三個修正計畫那這邊還要再三個修正計畫合計要增加七成好沒關係這個我們將來我們會考考這個還有提出來好不好我們會再協助縣議院長因為時間啦快到了你請回好不好"},{"start":10481.358,"end":10507.786,"text":"主席是不是請觀光署署長好 周署長部長以前現任的王東平縣長他當風景管理署署長的時候旅宿補助大概一年都有2000、淡季補助2000到2500萬他卸了以後就沒了"},{"start":10508.837,"end":10525.788,"text":"那我不曉得是風景管理處處長的能力有問題還是觀光署這邊克扣去補助其他當然周署長跟我講了花蓮現在風災嚴重風災不嚴重的時候我們也沒有啊去年沒風災的時候我們也沒有啊署長"},{"start":10527.571,"end":10540.3,"text":"很慘耶老闆已經罵死了我們不是不努力我們非常的努力現在我非常的努力我們一直在拓展觀光現在這樣的情況你能不能多多少少給我們一點好不好"},{"start":10543.01,"end":10569.84,"text":"呃在硬體方面其實我們一直支持馬祖的再建設另外軟體的部分呢我們也很多的這個活動的補助啦那針對秋冬的部分不是活動補助活動補助是活動補助喔我想旅宿的補助啊因為旅宿的部分基本上我們還是希望引客來策略上還是除了是花蓮山是比較災區啦部長好不好我想請署長啊"},{"start":10571.192,"end":10599.521,"text":"回去討論一下,我們等交通建設討論的時候好不好我們再來看有需要加碼我們再來加碼好不好那現在是不是主席對不起,我再耽誤一點時間,請民航局局長還沒有齁我是後面再給我一點民航局的何局長那署長你請回好不好,謝謝十一月六號馬高航線首航馬高航線首航"},{"start":10601.104,"end":10628.145,"text":"部長你覺得這個首航十班次包機包完結束?上次有跟委員報告我們還會再加會加?會再加現在我沒錢我先跟你報告一下他第二預備金一動之五百萬他的第二預備金已經用光了這我曉得所以拜託部長找民航找公安署至少到元旦假期怎麼困難?你減班都可以現在一個禮拜三班我同意可以減班"},{"start":10629.69,"end":10655.129,"text":"那還有一個問題阿兵哥說在南部指揮官跟我講有800多人軍人是南部的子弟那問題來了他禮拜三還是禮拜五放假我說我們航班可以配合他沒關係我們這個航班的開航不只是只為了我們老百姓我們也為了軍人那軍人的問題在哪裡包機國防部不給錢"},{"start":10656.917,"end":10680.963,"text":"如果是固定航班,他們很像是可以的所以是不是等包機完畢以後,何局長你還要第二次包機嗎我覺得這個六百萬再加上來回的機票起碼七百多萬華信你告訴他好不好叫他算個成本給你聽聽看好不好怎麼來怎麼去我們不希望他虧損,但是你也不要暴力吧"},{"start":10683,"end":10703.234,"text":"委員講到這部分有關包機再延長的部分我們11月中會來開會那第一個還是加油中油加油的問題要先來解決因為不解決一架飛機70個人只能載50個人所以他在損益兩坪的上面其實是不容易達到您告訴中油好不好對這個部分我們會邀中油全中華民國哪一個油品公司"},{"start":10706.379,"end":10732.368,"text":"這個中油沒有只有馬阿祖是馬油你告訴他如果不行明年1月1號我們宣布馬阿祖油品公司回歸中油回歸國油這部分我們會開會然後另外一個就是包機的延長剛剛部長也提到委員也關心的部分我們會盡量在現有也謝謝觀光署給我們的一點費用我們會在那個部分來衡量局長你注意聽部長答應我了"},{"start":10733.308,"end":10754.358,"text":"包機10趟以後還會包我的希望不是包我希望能夠成立固定航線你每個禮拜即使飛一班我也能夠接受你即使飛一班我也能夠接受一個禮拜飛一班你用定期航線然後把油料的問題解決定期航線的部分我會再評估票價"},{"start":10758.3,"end":10785.928,"text":"把它降下來降到3200那個載客率再到70個人當然你考慮林玉樹臺北飛過去萬一那邊氣候不好怎麼飛回怎麼飛回高雄這個問題你跟華信去討論好不好但是包機不能夠停掉定期的部分我們再評估部長你剛才回答我的包機不會停嗎到1月1號最少元旦假期到元旦假期"},{"start":10788.256,"end":10811.39,"text":"那元旦假期會就停了?目前預算還沒做,所以明明的部分還無法動用這不只是我個人,許智傑我也有很大的意見所以我告訴你不能停,繼續即使一個禮拜一班,你用定期航線的方式來處理我們來討論好不好,你這個繼續一下好不好"},{"start":10815.046,"end":10823.781,"text":"不能停喔還有就是北竿機場北竿機場中建方案已經通過了要啟動建設計畫建設計畫請問部裡面啟動了沒有"},{"start":10828.699,"end":10855.558,"text":"跟委員報告北竿計劃的一個實施因為我們第一期基本上我們現在會跟港公司他請他幫我們還在港公司沒有我們現在已經決定要代辦明年114年會開始做這個基本設計跟細設的案子然後再來117年就是等縣府會把這個豐山的垃圾場遷移然後再來我們民航局118年會做都市計劃然後再來就會動工"},{"start":10856.198,"end":10884.059,"text":"那這些都是建設計畫裡面的一環那這邊我們也會去處理委員跟馬祖地區比較關心的施工期間要關閉機場那他的相關配套還有施工期關閉機場的期間可不可以縮短這個我們都會在施工期間跟這個這一次的交通委員會考察我想何居然也會去我請北甘鄉鄉長跟鄉代會主席也要列席"},{"start":10885.14,"end":10901.241,"text":"他們把相關配套他們的需求是什麼我要他們在會中向局長報告好不好報告以後你回去拿來參考有一些法令允許有一些法令不允許的好不好起碼你第一個依法行政第二個的話你要"},{"start":10902.162,"end":10924.348,"text":"因地制宜你要考慮到當地民眾觀賞以後所衍生的一些問題商家、旅館還有現有的公務員、產站的消防員等等這些還有渡海要回到南竿去坐飛機要回去南竿在通勤的問題還有北竿民眾"},{"start":10925.595,"end":10953.749,"text":"做飛機的權益他在北竿的話這一班飛機他隨時都可以登機去走了嘛但是這個機場如果只有在南竿的話他坐飛機的位置能不能給他保留位啊什麼等等這些配套的問題啊我拜託何局長好不好你並案來研究這個問題好不好這個部分我們跟縣府還有這個剛剛講的鄉代表等等我們收集到意見以後我們會整體來做評估好那港公司董事長也來了您有沒有配合那個民航局"},{"start":10954.693,"end":10971.478,"text":"那個我們工程的部分我們全力來配合動作快一點好不好我想都用最初見來處理好不好因為這個建在弦上我們非常非常非常動作快一點點拜託啦好你們兩位請回落地簽賴總統在823的時候到金門去很像"},{"start":10979.819,"end":10997.553,"text":"移民署同意說落地圈還是大陸委員會、邱主委也有講說開放進門落地圈我在馬祖跟他提了幾次他都沒提到落地圈落地圈跟大陸民眾能不能來馬祖旅遊有很大的關係這都是配套我想回去你請觀光署"},{"start":10998.394,"end":11020.733,"text":"就落地簽的部分跟移民署要做一個磋商好不好還有我們在福州也有派駐人員在那邊請他們積極的能夠招商過來好不好這很重要的那署長跟組長你請回部長另外我再問你一個馬祖大橋後來你去問了沒有"},{"start":11021.735,"end":11033.91,"text":"我去問,他還是在國發?國發會回來,英商那個已經回來,他做第三方的簽證國發會抱怨他是英商怎麼講?"},{"start":11035.188,"end":11062.236,"text":"因為報告我們沒有參與那是機密文件還是什麼不曉得對,國安會他有就是殷商的報告他們有拿到然後就是我們10月底問他們他們是說他們把相關的結果也簽成本我讓部長跟局長在這邊先跟你說明一下殷商的報告絕對是抄抄我們台灣的抄世襲的一定是他憑什麼做出來"},{"start":11063.373,"end":11090.304,"text":"不能憑空想像,是不是?他要賺蛋、水文、水流、氣候很多因素都要考慮的是不是英國人特別聰明嗎?我不相信所以請局長去了解一下行政院的進度你們要吹,不是說我不去問你們,你們去把馬祖大橋放在那個地方生命是很短暫的小弟今年73歲了"},{"start":11092.383,"end":11115.699,"text":"不是大哥不是小弟我還剩下兩三年就不幹了不幹了問題你這個大橋還在那邊給我拖你是準備拖到我卸任還是怎麼樣沒有,程序都在走其實交通部這邊的程序已經走完該走的程序都在走走完了你要追蹤啊,因為你是主政嘛會追蹤你幫我問一下好不好因為你的層次比較問得到"},{"start":11117.079,"end":11144.671,"text":"局長的程式問不到,他連打電話都不敢問啊你起碼問一下卓院長嘛你也會碰到賴總統啊你說你有沒有做這樣的承諾啊你對陳委員有做這樣的承諾你對馬祖地區有做這樣的承諾不多啊,一年30億嘛是不是我已經循規蹈矩的做成按照程序按照行政程序在走啦"},{"start":11146.124,"end":11171.865,"text":"那你的意思怎麼樣?要拿到立法院三讀通過嗎?不要做成組決議吧?要嗎?現在程序已經在走,其實不太需要不要修法吧?應該不太需要要修離島建設條例來完成馬祖大橋嗎?應該不太需要應該不需要吧?好不好,這個拜託部長那其他的我想等交通委員會考察因為颱風我還很擔心,本來要跟召委報告颱風不知道在哪裡"},{"start":11173.291,"end":11193.043,"text":"啊?不來了齁?你不要說6號去6號去,7號等一下裁縫來回不來回不來我可以往大陸跑啊那你們不能去大陸啊是不是?我可以往大陸從廈門我們就待在馬祖也不錯待在馬祖齁?蠻好的"},{"start":11194.083,"end":11209.677,"text":"希望天流客好不好7號天氣把它變壞把你們通通留在馬祖好不好我們來接待我已經準備了淡菜給你們吃馬祖沒別的好東西海裡面的魚已經都不見了好不好好謝謝委員好那謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳委員"},{"start":11213.554,"end":11235.381,"text":"馬祖相關的一個建設問題還蠻多的所以我們這個禮拜三禮拜四特別舉辦馬祖魔鬼營那個很多的問題拜託各位相關的首長把那個解決方案都要帶到馬祖因為馬祖前線民風飄漢大家注意一下好 謝謝陳委員接下來有請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":11244.674,"end":11247.745,"text":"謝謝主席 請交通部陳部長好 陳部長"},{"start":11255.503,"end":11281.624,"text":"好 部長好 委員好部長 民眾使用大眾運輸的比例是影響能否可以達到淨零碳排的目標重要因素之一部長您認同吧我非常認同 是 那另外所以我們正在努力讓民眾多一些人可以搭大眾運輸大眾運輸 是那另外 電價上漲會增加大眾運輸系統的營運成本導致票價上升那進一步影響民眾的搭乘意願部長 這您同意嗎"},{"start":11283.212,"end":11298.001,"text":"如果票價上升的話會影響到民眾搭乘醫院這個我同意所以我們會用T-pass可以讓這個票價可以穩定是那我本席先針對那經濟部在今年的10月16日調整工業電價的決定本席有幾個問題要請教部長"},{"start":11299.522,"end":11321.056,"text":"我們先看到資料,資料顯示這次電費調漲後臺電的電費增加了4.56億最多那再來是北捷增加了3.9億高鐵增加了3.6到3.7億那其他的系統電費就是0.22到1.9億那這代表各大軌道的運輸系統的電費成本都增加了那為了要應對這一次的電價調漲"},{"start":11323.157,"end":11342.785,"text":"那目前機場捷運還有高雄的捷運已經取消了部分的優惠措施那在今年的 今年我們看到機場捷運從明年1月2號起他取消單程優惠10元那高雄捷運也在這個月的1號取消電子票證85折的優惠那台北捷運那這個月也要召開董事會叫他討論"},{"start":11344.285,"end":11350.471,"text":"調整票價那臺北捷運今年的電費漲幅分別是111年它漲了15%112年它漲了17%那今年的4月它又漲了14%這個月再漲"},{"start":11359.801,"end":11380.619,"text":"14%那從這些數據來看電費調漲似乎已經是常態了雖然能源的議題不是我們交通部的直接的業務範疇可是很多大眾的運輸他都是仰賴電力作為他的動力那所以交通部對電價應該也有相當的了解是吧是當然我們都有了解說大家漲電價的狀況是那部長您認為未來電價還會持續上漲嗎"},{"start":11386.641,"end":11410.744,"text":"這個電價我沒辦法預測但是我還是會鼓勵例如說交通部所比較有關係的例如說台鐵或者是高鐵我們希望朝節能跟節電的方向下去做那據我所知道台鐵跟高鐵其實在去年或前年做的節電方案其實蠻有成效的那這個成效可以讓它這個降低電漲價的這個影響我們希望先朝這個方向努力"},{"start":11411.56,"end":11426.185,"text":"因為這一次的電價調漲讓機場捷運還有高雄捷運都取消了優惠北街這個月也要召開董事會來討論雖然目前還沒有直接影響到民眾影響到通勤署如果電價持續上漲的話"},{"start":11428.966,"end":11451.818,"text":"這些大眾交通運輸他們也會考慮接下來是不是要調整票價這個會有壓力對那這會不會影響到民眾的搭乘意願部長你有想過這個問題嗎有我剛剛有跟委員報告其實如果票價調漲確實會影響到大眾的搭乘的意願所以我們現在推出的那個T-passT-pass讓大家可以維持穩定的一個票價會不會影響到淨寧碳排的目標"},{"start":11452.598,"end":11466.966,"text":"也會也會影響到如果是大眾運輸的這個搭乘的意願降低當然對金鈴碳排是負面的影響所以我們希望還是要鼓勵大眾能夠多搭乘這個大眾運輸公司因為過去動長就是我們都是希望民眾可以搭乘"},{"start":11467.646,"end":11474.468,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":11494.133,"end":11512.6,"text":"是 報告委員在TPAS目前民眾所使用的那個價格我們會盡全力來維持也就是說即便是捷運的票價調漲我們TPAS的部分也不會去影響到那也就是說大量在使用通勤的這個旅客來說的話他的影響會降到最低"},{"start":11513.311,"end":11541.087,"text":"是 OK 好那接下來北市要問山陰縣延伸48的到底還要多久那因為新北市的捷運局局長10月23號他也針對山陰縣的工程表示截至9月底整體的進度已經達到78.5那預計10月底軌道鋪設安裝作業將全線完成11月機場送電到LB08英哥車站11月啟動橫溪站至英哥站無人駕駛的動態整合測試那新北市市長"},{"start":11542.068,"end":11563.011,"text":"侯友宜則表示今年年底山陰縣它的號誌機房還有供電機房、軌道行政大樓還有土木的營建工程全線交付基點預計明年橫溪站至英哥站要做系統整合測試那山陰縣它預計2025年完工目前已經進入測試階段了可是山陰縣延伸至巴德還卡在行政院"},{"start":11564.195,"end":11589.917,"text":"那在這個月在上個月18號的時候在交通組總質詢的時候本席也問過院長部長您當時也有瞭解到嘛院長他只有說會加速核定的流程那從9月20號交通部呈報到行政院至今已經44天了目前還卡關過去台鐵征聖鳳鳴站臨時的建設計畫從交通部呈報到核定只花了15天山陰縣"},{"start":11591.198,"end":11610.555,"text":"它延伸到巴德是我們地方重大的建設之一那未來山陰線延伸至巴德與桃園的捷運銜接會帶來更便捷的北北桃捷運路網那新北市政府還有桃園市政府一直都很積極那本系也希望我們交通部跟國發會也要來積極地向行政院爭取"},{"start":11611.946,"end":11631.66,"text":"部長您目前掌握到進度到哪裡目前還是在就跟委員上次您所質詢的時候的進度應該是差不多的是差不多就是還卡在行政院嗎還在行政院我回去跟行政院那邊拜託看可不可以加速因為院長也有指示要加速了嘛院長也有指示要加速我再去跟行政院那邊再拜託一下有沒有一個時間時間"},{"start":11636.543,"end":11660.889,"text":"對 主導權在院裡面但我們盡量希望能夠年底之前看可不可以核定好不好是 那本期希望交通部這邊也要積極的來反映我們基層民眾地方的形聲希望可以盡速來核定讓他通過這邊拜託部長那在我們看到今年3月6月3號的時候臺熱線70公里處發生大探訪當時交通部有要求公路局在一個月內"},{"start":11661.749,"end":11664.391,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":11680.945,"end":11696.365,"text":"新北市金山區的台二甲線陽津公路就因為豪大雨的關係導致8.4公里處發生土石流那本席了解該路段分為上邊坡還有下邊坡上邊坡是C級下邊坡是A級攤方的是上邊坡局長可以說明嗎"},{"start":11698.357,"end":11718.898,"text":"因為這個陽津公路臺二甲就是說這個整個的那個降雨的這個時間的強度其實已經達到就是說整個就是說對於就是說這個邊坡的穩定性所以原則上就是說我們其實對於西齊邊坡其實我們都有加強相關的一個就是說這個管理跟監測那只是說因為"},{"start":11721.161,"end":11734.082,"text":"確實就是說有時候就是說這個當地的一個雨量真的是超乎就是說我們的警戒的話其實我們就是大概會先做相關的一個封路本席這也因為極端氣候的關係那我們這邊是不是要來就是來加強和檢討"},{"start":11736.514,"end":11760.226,"text":"其實我們對於就是說各地的就是說所有的邊坡分級管理以後大概就是說因為這個包括地震或是颱風降雨的這個部分其實我們有相關的警戒跟行動值其實主要就是希望因為它的降雨如果說這個強度已經達到超過我們的整個預期的這個警戒值的話其實是先做相關的一個封路"},{"start":11760.706,"end":11763.187,"text":"公司董事長、外交部國際機場股份有限公司董事長、外交部國際機場股份有限公司董事長、外交部國際機場股份有限公司董事長、外交部國際機場"},{"start":11790.598,"end":11810.273,"text":"董事長、局長北溪這邊也要特別提到在北溪的選區復興區的雪屋鬧道路在今年9月15號也發生攤房那11月1號高雄的藤枝連外道路也發生攤房那特別提到因為這兩條不是公路局的管轄所以它沒有做邊坡的體檢那部長、局長因為我們地方的財"},{"start":11811.794,"end":11825.87,"text":"財政有限希望在交通部也能夠來協助我們地方我們地方市政府有提出的話不管是以補助的方式還是有其他更好的方式都可以來確保我們民眾的通行安全那副長這邊可以來做協助嗎"},{"start":11826.651,"end":11850.42,"text":"好,報告委員齁,這個部分他如果有需要協助的話可以摘修的部分是報行政院會協助那交通部這邊可以協助他們呢就是技術面就是邊坡的管理的技術面的部分我們可以做計轉的部分來協助地方政府只要地方政府有提出我們一定會協助OK,好這邊先謝謝部長好,以上好,謝謝邱委員接下來有請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":11864.918,"end":11892.632,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長陳部長請航政司跟航港局航港局業局長安司長跟業局長來 司長部長 市長 局長 大家好首先 我先來請教一下那個野柳外海擱淺的那個中國籍貨輪"},{"start":11894.29,"end":11916.67,"text":"現在的狀況怎麼樣今天早上我們的抽油船終於可以靠過去了前幾天其實每一天都有派抽油船過來但因為海象不允許它的海浪大概都到4米2米以下才可以作業那今天已經靠過去作業人員也都已經上去難船上面了已經開始在做前置作業了好 那油抽完了之後接下來呢"},{"start":11918.04,"end":11943.431,"text":"應該會在原地做拆解的動作是不是請局長各位報告我們現在最優先的就是把油抽完應該要化解這個污染的風險那第二個就是船貨的移除那我們會設法盡量除了這個限地拆解這個方案之外我們通常會設法讓它所謂的撫養的移除讓它能夠拖帶那個離開這個擱淺的位置"},{"start":11948.674,"end":11968.441,"text":"接下來有處理完了再來處理貨船跟貨船你要就地拆解掉嗎沒有我們會要求保險公司提出對環境影響最小的方案希望以拖走為優先但如果拖不走就必須要就地拆解局長國際上處理擱淺大家都怎麼處理"},{"start":11980.138,"end":11998.785,"text":"保險公司是一個問題保險公司那是事後等到事情到了結論之後該怎麼賠那保險公司要出面賠嘛那我的意思是說國際面對我舉個例子第一個船擱淺他可能漏油"},{"start":11999.705,"end":12008.782,"text":"那我看我們能做的就是七早八早就把燃油省先弄出來嘛第二個如果貨上面載的是危險物品"},{"start":12009.977,"end":12032.054,"text":"那這個可能問題更嚴重嘛因為他可能會有其他的污染甚至爆炸甚至我anyway不知道什麼問題啦反正上面的貨如果還是危險物品所以呢國際上的處理方式是跟我們一樣就是等著穩定之後先抽油再解決貨然後再處理影響最小的船看要怎麼處理"},{"start":12033.554,"end":12052.808,"text":"國際都是這樣子嗎那國際有救援船臺灣到今天為止連一艘救援船都沒有嘛對我們派海巡去只是把人載走嘛對對於那一艘船怎麼處置我們其實是臺灣其實是無能為力的就簡單講他如果漏油我們就讓他漏漏完再來索賠嘛"},{"start":12054.623,"end":12071.976,"text":"對 包委 這個部分就是現在我們比較欠缺的是拖船的能量對對對不管把它推到更外海或者拉進來我們都沒有嘛那現在國內的這個拖船都是港內型的對對對 我們沒有那麼大的這個救援船嘛"},{"start":12072.416,"end":12086.616,"text":"對那根本就是說現在也在行政院的支持下在江部的支持下今年行政院已經核定了我們明年要來推動一艘大型的拖救船好那這個大型拖救船的營運是在"},{"start":12089.029,"end":12113.194,"text":"港務公司嗎我們會招商那會有一家專業的廠商他會來負責這個好所以就明年開始我們開始打造第一艘臺灣的救援船是這樣的意思嗎下半年明年下半年是這樣的意思沒有錯好這個我的重點在這裡就是說我希望明年真的要落實這個事情臺灣對 四面環海"},{"start":12116.041,"end":12139.333,"text":"那每一年現在只是剛好我在關心這個問題的時候剛好有這個在野柳外海事實上之前7月10月我看陸續你們這個通報的這個事件裡面幾乎這個每一年都很多條船擱淺那我其實很不同意這種所謂我其實不同意這種事後大家再來看要怎麼處理"},{"start":12140.333,"end":12163.822,"text":"就是他把臺灣譬如說在野柳外海甚至有一些更是海洋生態豐富的地方他把他汙染了然後我們汙染之後再開始人家說你要賠我錢我們應該是想辦法阻止他不要讓他汙染嘛所以我看國際的救援上面譬如說日本來講他可能是大型的救援船把那個擱淺的船推出去"},{"start":12164.722,"end":12173.826,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":12189.994,"end":12214.415,"text":"已經事情發生了我們在講事後那個賠償我認為這個做法上消極委員所說的過去確實沒有這個拖船的設施這個確實只能消極處理那未來如果有拖船我們就可以積極處理所以部長這個一定要督促讓明年不管你們營運的方式是政府來經營或者政府跟民間合作或者你們直接要招標委託給民間經營不是都贊成"},{"start":12215.416,"end":12237.571,"text":"但是重點就是說我們要趕快積極臺灣這個實在是說實在今天講這個有稍微漏氣這個那麼久的時間然後我們四面環每一年都這種案例都那麼多但我們卻都是無能為力的方式在處理消極的方式在處理我覺得這個不妥所以這一次要來做這個事情本席是很支持的但我很擔心"},{"start":12239.33,"end":12253.737,"text":"講稿就要做稿不要明年又來跟講說來立法院講說又遇到什麼問題又不能做明年下半年大概這艘船就能到了明年下半年就能到好謝謝那請三位請回那接下來我請那個那個觀光署那個周署長"},{"start":12261.394,"end":12275.43,"text":"委員好 署長好署長我想本席8年的時間沒有待在交通委員會10年前我就在台上非常關心旅館的星級認證當時我就已經預測這個星級認證越來越糟糕"},{"start":12282.866,"end":12304.407,"text":"業者第一個業者喔業者參與的程度越來越低有參與的人就算觀光署去鼓勵去鼓勵去拜託或者他自己有需求可是這個得到這個星期認證在消費者心目當中他已經是他已經不算一個事了啦就是現在的消費者對於"},{"start":12306.021,"end":12320.072,"text":"我們這個交通部觀光署所做的這些星級認證大家已經不再是作為一個我住宿的指標所以長期下來這種叫惡性循環就我得獎也沒什麼"},{"start":12321.397,"end":12334.363,"text":"那我參加了我要繳費然後我得到這個獎所以我就不參加啊不參加你看那個數目啊你看星矩旅館那個那個認證的那個加數啊104年606到了113年這逐年一直下來嘛剩下100多"},{"start":12341.719,"end":12367.374,"text":"我認為如果我們不理他就讓他繼續留在那裡不施任何的改進或者乾脆你把他廢掉嘛或者說你要把他留著很好我也不會反對那你要怎麼做讓他可以起死回生這個早晚就是歸零嘛就越來越少到了一個旋來一邊他就會直接快速下降比如說最後剩下三五十家那三五十家可能隔年就歸零了因為"},{"start":12368.434,"end":12369.435,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":12391.207,"end":12416.444,"text":"所以我們也用澳洲的標準所以我們有一個五星Outstanding應該俗稱的六星級飯店所以這一次已經有兩家六星級的飯店那這個星級的部分我們也重新調配也就是它的KPI會不一樣所以現在就是說先整備的部分盤整的部分已經完成了那再來的話我們怎麼樣是"},{"start":12417.585,"end":12418.386,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園"},{"start":12439.283,"end":12462.151,"text":"臺灣國防協會臺灣國防協會有很多星級旅館在裡面所以我們也希望透過臺灣國防協會跟我們的星級旅館的這個協會做一些串接我們希望做一些鼓勵性的影客那確實大家對星級因為現在我們修法還在做也就是我們現在旅館有三種"},{"start":12463.231,"end":12487.079,"text":"一個叫做國際觀光旅館一個叫做一般觀光旅館一個叫一般旅館可是我們這種分級其實不好旅館要國際化它一定是通盤往國際化走所以我們初步的話就把觀光旅館跟旅館分兩類然後就是走品牌所以這個新級的旅館確實要重新打造那我們希望"},{"start":12488.119,"end":12502.529,"text":"真的需要一點時間然後我們會跟旅宿業一起合作市長其實這種分類在你們內部管理上這個也是10年前就討論的議題就10年前去定義什麼叫觀光旅館、一般旅館其實10年前大家就挑戰了"},{"start":12503.77,"end":12530.302,"text":"這都是老生慘談十年後我站在這裡我還是在跟你講這個事情你還是在跟本席報告這個事情所以這個已經沒有什麼拖不拖就是第一個叫你們怎麼管理啦你們內部對於這種分類有沒有意義譬如說你這個分類是有意義的因為我的標準要求不同那我的權利義務也不同那這個當然有意義嘛就像你不會說我們蓋房子我們來分幾千萬以上叫豪宅豪宅的管理有豪宅的管理沒有它叫公寓大廈"},{"start":12531.974,"end":12559.814,"text":"就你長那個樣子有樓梯有什麼他就供一大下不會再分豪宅的歸豪宅沒有嘛你就是那因為是為什麼因為他權利義務責任什麼都差不多啦而且地方政府在管一般觀光旅館跟旅館對對阿但是問題是修法在立法院嘛是你們行政單位怎麼去修法立法院來審查所以重點還是你們對於整個台灣的旅館業怎麼管理嘛是那第二個我再請教我們星級旅館一年我們編多少預算來做"},{"start":12560.773,"end":12584.992,"text":"預算確實不多但是品牌沒關係不多是多少千萬還是百萬我們原則上大概就一千萬左右一千萬左右好那我再請教一下我看這個米其林他現在在做那個叫星藥就他的米其林一星二星三星這個米其林推薦這個是飲食餐飲那米其林現在對旅館他做這個藥食星藥"},{"start":12589.267,"end":12610.883,"text":"這是另外一個系統對是另外一個系統跟飲食不一樣嘛所以他用鑰匙一個用星星一個用鑰匙不一樣好那這個台灣我看公布裡面沒有台灣嘛我們目前並沒有跟他合作對那有沒有打算乾脆跟他合作我們要評估一下他的制度對就是很簡單嘛因為我們的旅館的我們現在邏輯是這樣我不是說"},{"start":12612.394,"end":12626.649,"text":"我對米其林我沒有什麼特別覺得他就一定好啦對我來講他就是不踩雷的代表啦就至少米其林推薦給你的不會是地雷啦但是你說好不好吃那個個人見仁見智好"},{"start":12627.61,"end":12646.87,"text":"現在我要跟你討論為什麼我們的新籍旅館評鑑會一直下來是因為消費者從來沒有對新籍台灣的這個品牌叫做台灣觀光署發的新籍旅館評鑑它有任何象徵的意義特別是10年前我認為多少還有一點點10年後的今天我認為它毫無意義"},{"start":12647.671,"end":12676.169,"text":"所以我的意思就是說花一千萬要打造這個品牌我認為難度很高就是你要打造到讓台灣的消費者國際消費者來到台灣認為星級旅館就是他的目標我覺得這個難所以你的第一個方法就是你要嘛你要做這些星級旅館你就不要弄那個什麼一千萬的啦外傳那個媒體寫的說跟米其林合作我們都花了六千萬在飲食的部分啦當然觀光局否認嘛我不去追究這個但重點是說"},{"start":12677.389,"end":12702.729,"text":"我們要打造品牌你就要真的花心思去打造讓這個品牌國際觀光客、台灣觀光客認為這個是絕對是保證至少對我來講他不踩雷嘛是保證然後你最好能做到大家以這個為追求的指標譬如說很多人為什麼米其林我們台灣要做是因為很多米其林的愛好者他為了追星他專程坐飛機來台灣吃米其林啊所以米其林對台灣的光光義義在這裡嘛"},{"start":12704.141,"end":12729.681,"text":"那回過頭來一樣的道理我們政府等於說我們在餐飲我們相信米其林可是我們在旅館上我們自己要搞一個旅館評鑑我們自己要搞一個星期旅館評鑑那你就要保證這個旅館評鑑你要搞得有聲有色讓大家至少他不要說贏米其林也不要說跟米其林一樣至少很接近大家也覺得喔這讚這個是有公信力這個是有價值的那旅館他花這個錢他才會來嗎"},{"start":12731.552,"end":12748.621,"text":"主席已經站很久我不忍心讓他站太久了我只把我的想法先告訴部長跟局長跟署長一定要這樣做嘛不然你就二選一你就乾脆不要花這個錢你乾脆就找米其林來合作嘛或者你還有其他的這個評鑑單位也是全球公信力所有的"},{"start":12749.341,"end":12754.322,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":12779.004,"end":12779.325,"text":"徐富奎委員"},{"start":12802.52,"end":12806.855,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我們有請交通部陳部長、觀光署周署長有請陳部長"},{"start":12814.66,"end":12833.634,"text":"部長好、署長好首先謝謝部長我們上個禮拜一我們交通委員會到屏東來考察然後想從考察結束的那個時候開始為了接著跟鄉親的點維說這個屏東的交通問題到底有沒有解就是說"},{"start":12834.915,"end":12860.761,"text":"交通委員會也看了好幾次那這個關於這個所謂的路線問題還是一些包含高鐵也好高級也好還有我們的平安快速道路甚至觀光的一些方案也好部長我想經過一個禮拜之後您個人有沒有信心可以處於我們這樣的一個交通觀光的一個困境我想交通部跟委員一起在努力包含屏東縣政府也非常的努力"},{"start":12861.382,"end":12869.383,"text":"所有我們在爭取的交通建設案都在推進當中目前都有進度而且都在推進當中所以這個當然是有信心的"},{"start":12870.051,"end":12892.944,"text":"在這邊真的很誠懇的要拜託部長就是我們鄉親的期待因為這個屏東不是只有解決交通的問題它牽扯觀光的層面、產業的層面還有文化教育諸多的層面你觀光不一樣,這些東西很難到位這我想部長最清楚那我們也很期待我們就真的每一個階段要有每一個階段的進展"},{"start":12894.745,"end":12909.58,"text":"每一個階段要有每一個階段的結果讓鄉親、鄉親說平常不再是站位抱歉這一點我想部長我們大家一起來努力另外我想剛剛從9點開始質詢我就發現我們署長臉上失去了微笑曲線"},{"start":12916.326,"end":12929.897,"text":"這個署長最喜歡講的微笑曲線那署長我想從我們那個出國的人數的對比那我們這個國內旅遊的一個對比真的是一個很強烈的落差那"},{"start":12932.299,"end":12949.111,"text":"從這個出國人次的一千多萬到現在我們入境才六百多萬那觀光署這邊對整個策略上的思考上到底有沒有出現什麼樣的問題可不可以請部長跟署長做一個答覆我跟委員簡單的報告一下"},{"start":12950.714,"end":12965.464,"text":"目前來看我們都是一個年度一個年度在做整體檢討那今年度的部分大概有分兩部分一個就是可控的因素一個是不可控的因素因為在做檢討的時候本來就是需要這樣子做說明的"},{"start":12966.064,"end":12985.647,"text":"那有些我們還是可以繼續努力的部分原則上在海外的部分還是無路其發因為我們覺得推廣會跟這個旅展的參與還有這些重要的景點或是重要的這個所謂的轉運站的行銷還是廣告還是很重要然後再加上社群"},{"start":12986.508,"end":13011.604,"text":"那另外一個部分就是真的國旅這個部分因為確實疫情之後解封之後這個國人比較熱愛旅遊都是往國外走那尤其是這個匯率差或是是有些特定的譬如說越南的復國島這些它的團價都比較便宜所以反而會鼓勵了國人一些往外旅遊的一個意願"},{"start":13013.385,"end":13034.473,"text":"但是我們國內的部分還是可以強化的就是說我們發現22個縣市政府尤其是六都的部分其實也開始搭配重要的這個活動像高雄他在這個演唱會的這個方面就可以看到他的成效那當然還有米其林在台中的米其林其實也帶動了台中的美食的旅遊"},{"start":13035.453,"end":13051.736,"text":"我們覺得這些還是可以看到大家一些努力的成果但是住宿這個部分確實我們一直希望這個還是能夠留客那我們現在國旅還是一樣就是所謂的這個留宿的部分就一日遊的比例太高"},{"start":13053.397,"end":13067.462,"text":"這部分我還是要提一下這個我們民宿業者也發聲一下其實像我們平常來講有很多優質的民宿那往往我們在觀光署在處理的一個觀光推展的方面當然我們還是以所謂的一個"},{"start":13068.763,"end":13074.085,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":13093.133,"end":13099.298,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":13112.228,"end":13122.838,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":13135.791,"end":13147.862,"text":"我想這部分 包含未來我們要結合社區做一些深度體驗這部分都是我們需要努力的方向今天觀光署也有選定了103家的金職得獎金職得獎的那個民宿那這個部分我們會大力來推廣"},{"start":13149.434,"end":13178.24,"text":"另外我想另外一個部分就是說針對我也跟我們幾位南部的委員都有在在討論這個問題就是說其實我們很多的因為這些東南亞的遊客他們往往因為班機的問題必須飛到桃園他們沒有辦法去到小港機場所以因為這樣的誘因不足造成其實他們要來南台灣旅遊的意願會降低而且消費會增加這部分有沒有辦法請民進黨局能夠再協調一下增加我們小港機場的航空"},{"start":13178.84,"end":13197.037,"text":"這部分今年它的這個航點已經比過去疫情更多了航點的部分那這個部分我們還要持續來爭取我們希望未來小港機場可以作為臺灣一個非常重要的一個機場所以不管是航點、航線、航班我們都希望能夠成長跟增加這個部分我們還是繼續來努力"},{"start":13198.658,"end":13226.172,"text":"另外部長我想從我們觀光署這個國際的一個宣傳費用從111年開始一年都要開十幾年我想這個花的錢不在少數但是這樣花了這個錢之後看起來並沒有增加所謂一個國外旅客到臺灣來的一個旅遊的誘因那我們國內的景點大概還是停留在故宮這個九份甚至墾丁這邊也是固定那幾個景點我們沒有開發新的景點"},{"start":13226.952,"end":13248.564,"text":"那很遺憾的是就我們來看像最近那個加洛水以前是我們的記憶國小畢業旅行一定要去玩甚至很多國外遊客一定要來墾丁國家公園玩但是因為卡到我們有觀光署有墾丁國家公園署這些跌床驕傲之後加洛水這次逢台颱風尿沒有人要插很可憐的這為了要怎麼去處理這個建設的問題"},{"start":13252.506,"end":13276.954,"text":"是那個部分我們有了解過當然他是屬於國家公園裡面那如果交通部這邊能夠做的能夠協助的包含觀光的宣傳的部分我們當然可以努力不過硬體的部分似乎我們之前有想辦法要做可是被監察院糾正過今天國家公園署的代理署長也要來我想請他也我們到時候大家來討論一下怎麼樣來協助加熱水這個再現方法"},{"start":13278.48,"end":13305.396,"text":"因為我想上次上個禮拜部長我們一起在談到所謂的恆春建成一百五十週年那當然我覺得有一個很意義的就是我們要跨部會整合包含恆春古城的一個建設包含墾丁國家公園的發展我想這部分都是必須要花很多的心力來做一個跨部會不要大家都是都在說剩下的都不要扛責任這樣是不對啦所以我想明年恆春建成一百五十週年"},{"start":13305.956,"end":13333.033,"text":"在這邊也特別拜託部長跟署長全力支持我們恆春建成150週年是一個很有意義的一個歷史的一個活動目前有三個活動我們會盡量來協助有三個活動我們都盡量來協助另外我們有成立一個恆春建成150週年的專案小組我們的這個大鵬灣的風景管理處會作為窗口大家一起來研商看要怎麼協助好那最後我一個問題剛剛有提到我們那個霍倫擱淺的問題"},{"start":13334.654,"end":13352.47,"text":"那 局長 葉局長齁我們那個開米颱風東港這邊還有一艘蒙古籍的巴西亞到現在都還沒有拖走捏阿整個港澳澎湃我看位置又偏了捏更危險捏有有 有跟國營幫我們持續都有專人這個監控他的這個狀況齁"},{"start":13354.051,"end":13369.789,"text":"那一個是船體的位置另外一個是海面有沒有遊屋這個持續都每一天都有那另外空拍允許的情況下我們也都會空拍也會送給海保署那另外一個先是決定就地解體嗎還是要拖走"},{"start":13370.089,"end":13398.768,"text":"因為他的狀況可能就地解體的機會大概沒有辦法脫帶離開所以應該可能是就地解體那不過我們現在因為這個保險公司他沒有出名處理那我們依照香港法案這個介入處理那現在公開招標之後這個廠商會提出這個傳體圖計畫我們會來做審查如果有機會拖出去我們當然是希望能夠拖出去"},{"start":13399.048,"end":13419.911,"text":"市長這個要拜託加快,因為我真的發現那個真的變一個網紅景點啦,保證有很多人都在那裡,都走很遠,我都很怕被那個人碰到,真的很危險啦已經快三個月了,拜託局長趕快處理好不好是是是,我們現在就盡快公開招標,然後找廠商來做處理"},{"start":13420.231,"end":13438.377,"text":"那另外圍籬的部分我們會就是把它圍射的完整也應該做一個安全的一個防護措施啦這避免真的發生危險啦好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝徐副葵委員再來有請許智傑委員"},{"start":13450.575,"end":13458.674,"text":"主席大家好,我們先請那個部長跟鐵道局長有請陳部長跟鐵道局局長"},{"start":13467.024,"end":13495.27,"text":"請教一下部長跟局長現在高雄高鐵已經做決定了沒有報告委員目前還沒有目前還是兩個案一個是左營案一個是進入高雄市區的案子所以是兩個案子所以現在還沒做決定對還沒做最後決定我們先假設如果是左營案那就是照原來的案子如果是高雄案那他會到高雄車站"},{"start":13497.057,"end":13521.722,"text":"那然後再到屏東車站但是我鳳山車站好像沒有規劃進去那我知道有很多工程的困難度啦因為我初步了解他要鑽地下上來要12層樓他要拆掉一棟22層樓的大廈但是其實我們地方反應真的是可不可以閃得過啦"},{"start":13522.722,"end":13539.349,"text":"可不可以閃得過就是說你規劃的大小範圍那不見得要說那麼一板一眼嘛那如果閃得過的話是不是有機會如果是高雄岸要到高雄車站那要到屏東車站是不是我鳳山車站要把它考慮進去"},{"start":13541.085,"end":13566.357,"text":"在工程面向上確實目前評估起來是有困難那委員在講的這個閃不閃得過這個我們也請鐵道局我們來研究看看看有沒有那個機會如果閃得過的話那當然是當然是可以啦但是這個工程面向這個我不敢在這邊跟委員做承諾這個要做完研究之後如果可行那當然就照委員所建議的這個我想希望部長跟局長能夠盡全力去思考"},{"start":13567.217,"end":13596.297,"text":"因為我知道那棟22層樓的大廈其實離鳳山車站還有一段距離只是說它要上去的時候它的範圍需要比較大那如果以工程技術來講我覺得那裡已經算是尾端了如果閃得過去應該有機會可以閃得過去所以我希望說我們既然你從高雄車站要來了那你如果說又到屏東車站那跳過我們鳳山其實這個情何以堪"},{"start":13597.318,"end":13604.013,"text":"所以我希望說部長跟局長這個部分是不是可以做再一次的評估把原來計畫評估的那個22棟的大樓把它閃過去"},{"start":13608.69,"end":13629.838,"text":"包括我們這個我們認真來做細節上面的確認跟評估我是覺得有調整的空間啦那個地方其實我了解真的是邊陲離車站還有一段距離如果你要四四方方如果少一個角不見得要四四方方因為那個遠的地方嘛可以做一下調整所以就是說今天坦白講"},{"start":13631.209,"end":13645.187,"text":"高雄車站如果經過沒有經過我們鳳山車站我們的壓力也的確是很大所以我希望說能夠排除萬難把它完成這樣好不好我們朝這個方向來努力來討論技術面看怎麼克服好 謝謝我們換觀光署"},{"start":13656.815,"end":13665.621,"text":"部長有提到說我們觀光人口從一千兩百萬調整到一千萬嘛那現在部長跟署長有沒有討論呢現在大概"},{"start":13669.98,"end":13695.754,"text":"到年底可以到達多少我們的目標一樣是1000萬就是說我強調過好多次前線的同仁還在努力爭取國外的旅客能夠進來台灣所以這個目標我並沒有要做下修但之前有提到說實際上大概能夠達到多少比較有把握的是750萬那我目前聽觀光署給我的數字已經超過620萬了看起來再努力一下有機會可以到達800萬在進來的數字"},{"start":13698.055,"end":13710.054,"text":"那個阿明年大概也是估計1000萬嘛對不對我是認為說如果今年的目標所設定的目標沒有達成的話明年就要達成今年該達成的目標有達成了我們再往上拉"},{"start":13711.968,"end":13736.386,"text":"應該要再放遠一點那個我們TPASTPAS其實從一開始111年開始實施北北基然後我們高雄那陸陸續續現在反應也不錯所以當時我也有質詢過就是臺灣航空卡是不是跟TPAS可以做結合那今年部長也決定說要做TPAS2.2方案對不對"},{"start":13738.127,"end":13764.498,"text":"那這個TPAS2.0方案有沒有包括好玩卡的部分沒有沒有跟各位報告高雄市有提出就是說短天期的TPAS的這個方案TPAS的短天期有提出來目前我們有提供修正的建議給他們那目前他們還沒有回來我希望說讓部長、署長跟局長稍微了解一下你先看大阪這一張"},{"start":13767.17,"end":13793.806,"text":"其實他山之石可以工作我簡單的再講一下就是現在全世界好玩卡做得最好的應該是大阪台灣做得最好的是我們高雄那要怎麼樣去吸引觀光客因為我想以部長、署長、局長跟我的年紀差不多我們可能都會屬於比較團友的啦團體旅遊啦"},{"start":13795.799,"end":13815.806,"text":"那如果是年輕人那個自由行的我不知道你們有沒有觀念比如說你今天去日本去大阪自由行的他會怎麼玩他一般都會買好玩卡你包括在歐洲像那個布魯塞爾"},{"start":13817.045,"end":13823.629,"text":"董事長、外交部國家公園署董事長、外交部國家公園署董事長、外交部國家公園署董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":13846.613,"end":13847.814,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":13867.091,"end":13885.988,"text":"然後又找這些偶像一起去做行銷代言等等的那甚至就是說他們還有什麼地方有什麼扭扭蛋之類的附贈品扭蛋機部長知不知道知道"},{"start":13887.568,"end":13895.312,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":13916.314,"end":13924.686,"text":"如果有這個好玩卡的話目前只有北北基有做再來就是我們高雄臺中甚至現在都還沒有臺南也沒有"},{"start":13925.874,"end":13953.195,"text":"所以要怎麼樣去配套我說這是一個比較新的觀念但是如果我們有這樣子做思考我們才會把這個廣度再加廣這個除了日本之外他們還有什麼送小禮物啦什麼之類的有很多打折等等的所以你看日本韓國這裡日本的大牌周遊券有90項免費景點或優惠那首爾它的轉轉卡有75項"},{"start":13954.912,"end":13979.504,"text":"我們高雄好玩卡是21項啦那北北七是35項那當然北北七這裡最貴他可能包括101要450塊可能包括故宮要350塊那是他算算了他就會合年輕人現在很會算他查幾百塊幾十塊他就去算我變成7塊比較會合這個東西如果沒有我們先把它規劃一個配套的話"},{"start":13980.529,"end":14005.726,"text":"一去自由行就是靠自己去搜尋現在高雄市跟北北區這個做法都是城市地方自己處理那有沒有機會我們觀光署跟公路局跟交通部來做一個整體的思考比如說我是高雄,我要去客工館他就要另外領域,這是國立的嘛比如說你在台南要去國立你是保護館"},{"start":14007.203,"end":14019.75,"text":"這是國立的可能他就因為他這個有點複雜啦需要由中央來協助要把這個串聯會比較容易所以我其實今天這個最大的目的就是說我們"},{"start":14020.967,"end":14047.765,"text":"的TPAS 2.0其實我以前就有質詢過在部長還沒來的時候其實我已經好幾個部長我都有質詢過是不是可以把這個規劃進來這個對於有利於推動觀光尤其是自由行年輕人的觀光絕對有蠻大的幫助那不管是國大、國內或國外的旅遊也都會有幫助那是不是部長跟觀光署跟公路局我們確實的把這個部分思考進去"},{"start":14052.428,"end":14072.703,"text":"是 如果觀光跟通勤可以結合在一起的話當然對大家來講都會比較方便那目前比較成熟的是高雄跟北北京這兩個都市的部分我們先來協助看有沒有辦法整合在一起不過因為技術面在通勤的那個月票的那個卡他後台的一些編碼的技術面的問題可能還要再克服這個我們來努力一下"},{"start":14073.649,"end":14097.003,"text":"那明年我們看得到進步的因為好玩卡的英文名字叫做Taiwan Pass明年我們可以做得出至少做得出一部分成長的成績給我們看嘛"},{"start":14097.859,"end":14100.18,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":14120.879,"end":14148.272,"text":"把全世界到日本去參加萬國博覽會的這些人口一部分帶到台灣來旅遊也會增加我們的觀光客所以這個部分事實上也是希望說觀光署跟交通部可以一起思考他國有這樣子一個活動順便來台灣正好那這個都希望說總而言之我希望說海王卡、T-pass可以結合那我們希望明年可以看得到成績這樣好不好我們來努力好謝謝"},{"start":14153.868,"end":14169.32,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑委員 再來請王洪威委員好 謝謝主席 我請我們交通部長還有民航局局長請陳部長跟民航局局長好 部長好 局長好"},{"start":14179.023,"end":14206.361,"text":"從今年以來波音737、800的飛安的問題不斷事實上在世界各國從馬來西亞航空、全日空到韓國的廉價航空、美國航空、瑞安航空那麼日本航空一連串的都出現了一些飛安上的問題那在全球的民航裡面大家也熱烈討論我想請問部長"},{"start":14209.283,"end":14224.816,"text":"您知道臺灣的航空公司有沒有採用波音華航那麼在這麼多的非安的問題傳出之後我不曉得交通部或者民航局有沒有針對這個我們"},{"start":14229.151,"end":14240.46,"text":"國航所採用的波音737、800裡面有做盤點還有做什麼相關的因應措施目前民航局有做過盤點那因應的措施是不是請局長"},{"start":14241.431,"end":14262.588,"text":"好請局長來大力回應一下有關737、800這個就是說各國發生的一些狀況那我們民航局有進行盤點在臺灣有沒有發生過目前來講是沒有類似的情形那基本上因為我們是只有華航有10架737、800那FAA之前有發布一個公告"},{"start":14263.288,"end":14285.554,"text":"那大概是針對737機型的部分就是針對MAX或者是NG的這個部分因為我們華航737、800所以現在這十架都照飛嗎對目前來講就照華航的維護計畫還有相關的檢修計畫他們在執行因為飛航安全是最重要的所以我要特別提醒交通部有關於這個飛航安全的問題民航局長先請回我請我們的觀光署署長"},{"start":14292.23,"end":14299.494,"text":"部長 剛才您特別講就是事實上我們的觀光目標人數今年本來1200萬然後現在降到1000萬一度講到750萬但是我剛才看你 你又講到800萬"},{"start":14307.839,"end":14314.165,"text":"那我覺得這個目標變得非常浮動目標還是在一千萬沒有變過好那我請問一下你剛才講那一千萬如果沒有達到的話因為你當時到了年底你這個部長的時間也當很久了不會像之前你剛當部長我們給你一點這個學習的時間喔那麼如果在今年年底沒有達到一千萬的話請問一下部長你如何自處"},{"start":14335.796,"end":14346.483,"text":"報告委員第4屆我們的狀況會好一些那當然之前所定下來的目標我們全力在衝刺本來就該衝刺啊所以部長或者署長沒有拿一千萬你們該怎麼辦我要講的是現在觀光業苦哈哈"},{"start":14353.607,"end":14366.038,"text":"你們這個目標自己隨便定隨便調到不到沒有辦法達到就把它變成一千萬然後又變七百五十萬現在好一點把它放到八百萬所以我要問的是你今天如果你在民間的公司你有KPI啊如果好那我問你年底達不到一千萬你自己或者是觀光署署長要不要費負政治責任嗎要不要我們當然要檢討你們檢討是怎麼檢討法"},{"start":14380.578,"end":14395.574,"text":"哪裡做不好就檢討哪裡我要講的是像以前瞻前瞻有很多的觀光計畫的預算我們來看一到四期就是執行到今年年年底"},{"start":14396.363,"end":14408.874,"text":"你們的質詢率都很高喔質詢率都很高所以錢都花完了到整個10年到114年度前瞻觀光的建設計費65億以上所以"},{"start":14411.977,"end":14415.7,"text":"你今天不能告訴我觀光預算花光光然後旅客不來心慌慌啊現在不是我們官員也心慌慌這個數字調來調去然後我們所有的觀光業者心慌慌啊旅客到底在哪裡我只是講務實能達到的狀況我要跟大家報告真實的狀況"},{"start":14432.975,"end":14436.356,"text":"因為當你喊出1200萬的時候部長啊所以你今天是怪你前面的部長啊訂了1200萬太高了嗎政府當你訂1200萬的時候民間的觀光業者會認為你會全力達到所以不管我的投資不管我的設備甚至我用人"},{"start":14455.223,"end":14470.466,"text":"結果呢 一下變成750萬 我算一算 變成少4成欸然後說現在啊 年底再把它衝一下我要講的就是 不要變成錢出去人不來我們現在的觀光部就變這樣嗎 錢出去人不來我們要的是 人出去錢進來啊 對不對"},{"start":14479.628,"end":14501.015,"text":"現在你這樣的一個整個觀光產業現在要死不活你坐在這邊你可能辛苦的是回答我們這個民意代表的質詢可是很多觀光業者他是生死存亡之戰他可能年底他就要決定他今天要不要結束營業了"},{"start":14502.535,"end":14524.962,"text":"所以當你的這個目標數字是一再浮動然後沒有任何人可以被檢討啊那我另外請問你們對觀光業者本來來臺灣一個人補助五千塊這個錢是不是已經花光了因為有人已經已經有觀光業者在問我是不是花完了這不是補助五千塊它是一個活動"},{"start":14525.962,"end":14550.944,"text":"那麼這個預算也是到114年現在是113年還在執行嗎還在執行中而這個所謂的前瞻計畫其實超過80%是硬體設施就像房子舊了老了你要更新就是需要用這個前瞻計畫來做所以啊政府也給你錢立法院也給你錢我剛剛講嘛錢全部都下去了執行階加進百分之百結果呢人不來"},{"start":14552.285,"end":14554.786,"text":"我要特別提到我們現在臺灣真的應該變成觀光大國我們過去也以觀光為非常非常主要的這麼多的服務業產業是來自於觀光我剛才特別講的現在的觀光產業真的太慘了"},{"start":14569.671,"end":14593.39,"text":"如果你們可以苦民所苦的話今天就不是在玩這樣的數字遊戲啦好不好所以我們會盯到年底喔部長請讓你們大家皮繃緊一點喔大家都在努力對 不要以為說答不成算了齁那我們都努力過了不行我覺得如果答不成的話一定要有人負政治責任好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":14597.779,"end":14600.748,"text":"好,謝謝王侯威委員,下一位請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":14610.069,"end":14627.566,"text":"主席、在黨委員先進、列席的政府組交通署長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請交通部陳部長、還有觀光署周署長以及鐵道局的楊局長那另外請台鐵的杜董事長和高鐵的顏之森副總在旁邊協助"},{"start":14635.302,"end":14661.409,"text":"好部長好、署長好、局長好部長我請問一下你有沒有去過日本去過你去日本是當觀光客嘛是不是是當然那你會不會去搭他的新幹線會會搭會我當觀光客每次去日本我一定買他的JR Pass你知道嗎日本的觀光客有多少比例用新幹線或者說在日本搭乘新幹線的乘客當中外國觀光客佔多少有沒有概念日本的我不曉得來周署長你們有沒有去過比較"},{"start":14664.124,"end":14681.91,"text":"台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署署署長、外交部國家公園署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署"},{"start":14684.369,"end":14705.216,"text":"還是你們的高鐵的乘客當中有多少是外國觀光客有沒有做過統計高鐵目前銷售的話我們的外國觀光客48萬人次好往下看你不是問你多少比例告訴你日本2023年的日本觀光客超過2500萬5兆的日元消費大概大成新幹線的日本觀光客佔他們總體新幹線的用量的兩成"},{"start":14706.633,"end":14732.644,"text":"那在我們疫情前來搭高鐵的旅客當中外國的旅客只佔3.5%部長你看了什麼感覺是當然比例上來看我們是比較低啦為什麼因為日本對國外的旅客來講可能使用台灣的這個高鐵的票可能沒有那麼方便或者是沒有那麼容易很多種可能我要說的是說因為當觀光客到日本搭新幹線非常划算"},{"start":14733.544,"end":14760.051,"text":"所以我們去日本觀光很喜歡自由行往下看但是我今天要問的是另外一個問題高鐵的運量從2007年1555萬的人次到去年是7308萬我們的搭車的人數啊我們搭乘的人數一直在成長最近這10年你看一下我們的運能人數在成長了50%以上可是發車的班次只有增加10%你知道這意味著什麼嗎"},{"start":14761.718,"end":14788.487,"text":"班次增加的少可是人載的人增加很多是不是表示每一班車都載更多的人都要到什麼程度你知道嗎請看下一張高鐵的營運過後趕不上去的成長啊34組列車每組12個車廂可以提供將近1000個座位去年以來班次從1016班增加到1060班成長的多車班成長的少所以旅客就要坐在廁所外面"},{"start":14789.537,"end":14802.667,"text":"那請問要怎麼解決這個問題 有沒有辦法再增加更多的班次 可不可以必須要增加列車組才有辦法再增加更多要增加列車組才能增加班次嘛 對不對請問你這12組的列車是太舊換新還是34加12以後有46組在服務應該是34加12那這34的舊的有沒有要太舊換新時間還沒到時間還沒到 什麼時候會到"},{"start":14816.718,"end":14837.53,"text":"來往下看35年嘛可以使用35年所以我希望你們呢好好的高鐵啊去要求他一下新採購的列出是什麼算出來的你這12組怎麼算出來的是按照我們的運量的需求成長算出來的嗎我先問一下有沒有聽過路線容量跟利用率台鐵該不會告訴我台鐵的路線容量跟利用率是多少說得出來吧杜總長有沒有"},{"start":14840.62,"end":14859.559,"text":"什麼是路線容量你解釋給大家聽是我們各路線的路線容量跟利用率不太一樣不過平均起來我們現在的路線容量有到達85%以上那利用率呢利用率大概超過6成7好你能告訴大家什麼是路線容量跟利用率嗎"},{"start":14860.576,"end":14887.77,"text":"呃 可以啊你請簡短的說路線容量就是我們在每一個路段我們所能開行的這個列次對那利用率就是用它多少利用率就是就是這個這些班次上面客人搭乘的一個情形高鐵有沒有高鐵能不能告訴大家你的路線容量是多少你的利用率多少說得出來嗎我們現在的承載率我們分平日跟假日沒有我是問你路線容量跟利用率你有沒有告訴我台鐵說得出來你說得出來嗎"},{"start":14889.656,"end":14907.618,"text":"你說不出來嘛 因為我公文去要 看下一張啊我去鐵道局要啊 要不到啊如果一個軌道的運輸業者搞不清楚自己的路線容量搞不清楚自己的利用率你告訴我現在可以跑30組列車你告訴我未來可以跑46組列車基礎在哪裡 部長知道原因了喔再看下一頁"},{"start":14909.076,"end":14922.167,"text":"今天我們要談臺灣的高鐵各站的停站量停站班次對不對你看到了沒有我們大概都60、61是不是這樣子這六都嘛你覺得台南46會不會太多還是太少不曉得那你覺得屏東多少才恰當停車班次跟彰化雲林一樣多好不好可不可以"},{"start":14935.185,"end":14946.398,"text":"我屏東也不敢太大野心我不敢要求要跟左營一樣60班次啦你要是給我跟彰化和雲林有17個班次就夠了請問如果要滿足屏東的需求你要多採購幾輛列車"},{"start":14949.978,"end":14968.762,"text":"這就是問題我們都一直以為屏東設站在考慮路線其實你要考慮到屏東縣州縣長說得好你的路線A案B案他說不管能夠趕快訂案就是好案按照運量來決定你停靠的次一個班次容量我們往下看有沒有聽過驗鈔方案驗鈔方案跟其他的左營案跟高雄案最大不同是什麼"},{"start":14974.02,"end":15000.058,"text":"驗潮方案到了驗潮往兩邊岔會去高雄左營的就不會來屏東會到屏東的就不會來高雄左營那表示什麼表示如果你是走高雄段或新左營案或高雄案高雄有60班屏東就有60班需要嗎屏東只要17、18班就可以了所以驗潮案的優點在哪裡你只要考慮屏東需要的運能運量同不同意"},{"start":15002.844,"end":15024.237,"text":"了解了沒有部長了解了沒有我最後要結束了因為主席站起來了因為那個有主橋要改變有工程上面的問題我是說路線的部分要考慮到你未來的人客乘客的市場規模我們屏東不是南港會到高雄的會到台北的都會到南港但是不需要會到左營的都會來屏東"},{"start":15025.177,"end":15053.573,"text":"只要能夠服務就好往下看最後一個你知道台北的那個日本的新幹線從1960年代到2020年代60年代間他們的車廂的列車的進化是這樣子的他的路線從剛開始500公里到現在3000公里所以拜託部長高鐵要永續發展請看下一張我們要從軌道的長度跟車廂的進化列車的進化同步考量所以三個結論燕超案本來就有請交通部回顧可以嗎"},{"start":15055.074,"end":15079.246,"text":"路線規劃除了考慮工程之外要考慮營運可以嗎可以所以臺鐵跟臺灣永不有同步永續發展這是唯一的考量最後的這幾個問題你倒回去為了你們新站點的設置計劃為了你們採購列車的太舊歡欣的騎乘規劃為了你們攀勢成長的調度計劃以及你們延伸軌道服務的區域計劃還有後勤人力的招募計劃可不可以上去那裡給個答案可以可以可以委員沒問題謝謝"},{"start":15082.349,"end":15110.383,"text":"好,謝謝鍾嘉斌委員再來有請鄭天才委員發言好,主席、各位委員,有請部長有請陳部長"},{"start":15118.289,"end":15140.829,"text":"部長好 委員好今天的報告特別提到這個為四月起受天災地緣政治阻力課員的一些因素所以就影響了這個來臺觀光的這個四月起是不是指0403地震0403的地震對臺灣的觀光衝擊非常的大"},{"start":15144.073,"end":15167.059,"text":"好那是只有花蓮嗎還是包含其他的地方當然花蓮是一個指標的觀光地區所以他這個太魯閣受損之後其實國際相當關注那國際上其實大家以為整體臺灣地震都很嚴重因為他們看到的新聞是太魯閣他們所熟悉的那個地方那他們就以為整個臺灣都很嚴重所以這個影響觀光非常嚴重"},{"start":15167.819,"end":15179.388,"text":"好這邊你也提到地緣政治所以這個部分地緣政治就台灣而言這個一直以來本來就是從這個8年來甚至9年來就是這樣的狀況那為什麼會這一次會"},{"start":15185.165,"end":15189.668,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":15211.556,"end":15220.699,"text":"如果我們看這個從100年到112年甚至到今年真的是我們曾經都是這1000萬觀光人數甚至是1100、1300、1300萬你看今年"},{"start":15232.079,"end":15259.054,"text":"都在一半以下一半以下所以這個部分各項的一個需要去檢討的部分都必須要去就如同剛才你所提的這個報告裡面所提的一併去評估然後怎麼樣去怎麼樣去尤其是政治的因素怎麼樣能夠減少這個是最重要的好"},{"start":15262.643,"end":15281.635,"text":"有關加速擴大團客、花蓮加碼這個部分也要謝謝交通部、觀光局、觀光署但是這樣的一個怎麼樣去繼續的或者是說能夠去加強這個是需要去繼續努力的地方"},{"start":15283.08,"end":15294.069,"text":"我們繼續做那有關落實花東振興方案的部分在雖然你們也做了一個延長現在延長到11月30號11月30號這個延長的部分因為又發生了這個"},{"start":15302.236,"end":15329.241,"text":"抗累颱風所以這個部分要不要再考慮延長我們已經有延長到12月20號我們有3.0plus的這個措施所以這個部分就是說你在報告裡面的因為這個5月天本來要去對不對那因為就是因為這個疏遠颱風所以現在延到1月"},{"start":15331.826,"end":15354.58,"text":"要延到1月所以這個預算是今年的到今年的計畫我知道那明年的預算其實也還沒過所以我們現在也沒有辦法去做明年的這方面這個延續性的部分這個OK的延續性的計畫到12月這個到12月我知道我說延續性的經費明年度延續性的經費是就算"},{"start":15355.521,"end":15370.561,"text":"立法院本來都是在1頁立法院本來都是1頁才會通過預算我們沒有編列這個預算因為這個是因為地震這是因為地震所以特別另外編列一個預算但用預備金來編列的"},{"start":15372.103,"end":15380.848,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":15399.118,"end":15402.98,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":15425.891,"end":15442.706,"text":"沒有延長是嗎?好,時間到了是嗎?好,一句話了,民航局這邊要特別,就是現在沒有上,就是針對臺東的部落,針對因為"},{"start":15449.517,"end":15457.18,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":15480.301,"end":15506.137,"text":"交通部不要成為第一個告部落的這個要審慎好不好交通部不要成為我們依照判決的結論來做我知道所以這個是你們還要送到溯源委員會好好的去把它做一個說明好不好讓溯源會的委員能夠了解不要交通部成為告部落的第一個好不好好謝謝"},{"start":15509.209,"end":15514.914,"text":"好,謝謝鄭天才委員再接下來請羅志強委員質詢主席有請部長有請陳部長"},{"start":15530.475,"end":15549.934,"text":"部長好 交通部去年底定下了1200萬人次來臺觀光的目標嘛 對不對是然後而且承諾說不管有沒有入客都要達標 對不對這個其實算很有氣魄的一個承諾啦有沒有入客都要達標"},{"start":15551.363,"end":15572.675,"text":"可是今年3月就先下修了一次這氣魄就變小了一點下修到一千萬嘛對不對今年3月的時候然後觀光局的計程車所來說一千萬是底線了這個我們還是有氣魄說再修也是底線可是好像不是欸今年到8月來臺旅客請問有多少人"},{"start":15574.025,"end":15589.761,"text":"今年到八月八月的部分還不到五百對啊到現在是差不多六百二十萬對然後因此看起來一千萬是不可能的事了嘛對不對今年也就快結束啦十一月十二月兩個月都不到對不對"},{"start":15590.502,"end":15618.724,"text":"所以下修到750萬人次那不是下修目標還是一樣1000萬我當時的詢答的過程當中我的回答是說我們比較務實能夠達到的是750萬那目前看起來數字又更樂觀一點就超過750萬或許有機會達到800萬部長目標沒有變這是我欣賞你的地方目標沒有變只是達不到就這個概念"},{"start":15619.631,"end":15631.749,"text":"我前線還在努力我不可能跟前線的同仁說那我們今年就不要補錢當然當然我懂領導學我懂領導學我懂但我只是要說一直在往下修其實也蠻打擊士氣的"},{"start":15632.625,"end":15649.671,"text":"那如果是照這個750萬那你說可能應該可以到800萬可以到800萬那當然還希望是1000萬剩兩個月我是不知道這個底氣哪裡來這剩下兩個月怎麼拼到1000萬那我想問一下部長一再瞎修原因是什麼那總要原因找出來吧"},{"start":15650.801,"end":15670.033,"text":"是 但是我們講的原因大家也不一定能夠接受觀光署其實有提出但是不能接受原因也至少讓我們知道4月3號的這個地震那造成很多的觀光客認為說臺灣地震相當嚴重再來就是太魯閣確實是臺灣一個相當重要的觀光資源那它的受損對於整體觀光的影響就非常非常的大"},{"start":15670.553,"end":15695.834,"text":"那再來就是匯率的問題因為我們的主要的觀光的來源國就是我們客人來源的比較多的是日本那目前匯率的部分日本人比較不願意出國去玩因為他們的匯率是跌的我們的匯率維持的還比較好一點那所以這種狀況底下日客來的就相對少一些再來就是我們最近確實颱風也蠻多的那整體都有影響不過我覺得還是我們內部自己要檢討我們是不是亮點不足"},{"start":15696.474,"end":15702.021,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":15716.317,"end":15732.295,"text":"所以我真的希望我們交通部能夠把這個目標挺住但是你說國內有一些因素國外有一些因素當然因素很多但是真的歸納起來還是有一個重點就是說入客的問題也是原因之一這個是原因之一"},{"start":15733.016,"end":15751.207,"text":"另外我有看到說觀光署曾經說要先前說要鎖定印度市場的企業獎勵旅遊來衝高來臺的旅遊人次但疫情前很特別疫情前我們華航有直飛印度的德里那疫情後卻一直都沒有復航"},{"start":15752.848,"end":15775.199,"text":"政府要推動新南向又訂出這個所謂的要拼印度的人來台灣旅遊可是你的直飛沒拼成我不知道你要怎麼去拼這個印度來台的旅遊呢是 這個民航的航線來講是非常重要的如果要讓旅客來的話這個部分我們正在努力那華航是不是也還在溝通當中是不是前民航局長可以"},{"start":15779.167,"end":15804.882,"text":"有關印度航線的部分因為它有一個航權的限制嘛那基本上之前是分配給長榮那長榮是由飛夢買那不過後來也是用透過中轉的方式來連接那直飛的部分是德里那這個部分之前是分配給華航那現在我們也在鼓勵業者來申請這條航線那整個恢復的情形大概會看他們機隊的安排我們希望他們可以來及早來恢復這條航線來符合期待"},{"start":15807.023,"end":15829.66,"text":"因為觀光其實觀光客很強調便利性如果說你今天要轉機的話當然就會降低他們來的那個意願所以因此如果說你在任何地方你要再拓展觀光那入客這條路如果現在有受到障礙的話你要廣開其他的一些國際的旅客的話那有一些交通上的東西我覺得要更便利的去推動那就麻煩交通部再繼續努力是 我們來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":15833.899,"end":15836.922,"text":"好,謝謝羅志強委員再來有請麥毓貞委員,請麥委員開始質詢謝謝主席,有請部長有請陳部長"},{"start":15856.923,"end":15871.387,"text":"部長好我們10月30號有在台中做考察是我那時候要求就是我們的台中的航空公司那一邊還就是我們要給我那個說明說為什麼我們正常的航班就是票買一買就是說不飛"},{"start":15881.55,"end":15901.281,"text":"為什麼原因還有說多少班影響了多少人這個我還沒有收到這個取消的部分民航局已經有做整理了那是不是先由民航局跟委員報告跟委員抱歉因為我們資料剛剛整理出來那大概月結因為那天講的是月結那大概1到9月總共飛了885架次你可以這個書面再給我這個書面再給我因為這個部分我們要去了解要去幫忙溝通"},{"start":15910.285,"end":15933.13,"text":"因為我們希望剛才都說觀光就是要增加大家的就是想要的嘛如果是航班都沒有沒有信用這樣就會影響更大因為在台中我們越南要飛台灣的有四處來去飛來去飛來飛去影響到我們台中的航班是很大的"},{"start":15933.77,"end":15955.693,"text":"所以這個部分要重視然後第二個就是我們觀光署就是疫情後就是推廣說今年8月來臺就是我們今年來來臺灣就是約62萬人這是我們出去外面的出國的人要"},{"start":15959.187,"end":15980.203,"text":"155萬人所以說呢就是這個比例差因為之前都說別人來我們再開放但是現在我們的觀光呢我們別人我們自己臺灣的都不想留在臺灣都想要出去我們要如何讓說我們的臺灣的觀光更真正"},{"start":15981.204,"end":16003.031,"text":"上次在臺中的時候我都有問到這些問題希望就是我們要如何去吸引更多的觀光來我們的臺灣我們的特色是什麼我們要讓人家值得一遊這個才是我們必要的我們要去整理這個因為我們在臺灣就是人文地產"},{"start":16004.744,"end":16030.539,"text":"警還有住這個地方是我們要全方面的要去顧慮因為我們來到臺灣觀光就是注重這幾個要有這樣子的特色才必須一有才讓我們在來這邊的意願所以這個部分的話我們怎麼樣去推廣要落實不只是口號啦所以部長有沒有什麼的"},{"start":16031.719,"end":16046.565,"text":"規劃因為還有兩個月而已一千萬現在有多少所以說這要怎麼去達成這個很重要不能是說我們在努力中在研議中在就是在這樣中目標在哪裡"},{"start":16047.642,"end":16074.055,"text":"我們目前正在落實國外的這個宣傳的部分其實觀光署也相當的努力有拍了幾支不錯的影片那我們目前在國際的通路上面包含BBC、CNN這些媒體上面其實都有幫我們做曝光那另外針對這個社群通路的部分我們也正在努力當中這個部分其實都有落實在做不過以長遠來講的話我們如果希望觀光能夠做起來我認為台灣的景點也就是亮點"},{"start":16074.735,"end":16099.253,"text":"台灣觀光的亮點要更多而且必須要讓國外的人看到不要只有靠過去大家所熟悉的那些亮點我們應該要開發新的亮點讓大家更願意來台灣玩那台灣的亮點我們在跟各縣市也有配合說有100個亮點這個部分100個當然對國外的人來講太多了但對國內的國旅來講是有幫助的我們每個縣市都盤點出一些亮點讓國人可以在國旅的部分可以下去"},{"start":16100.253,"end":16119.288,"text":"很重要希望就是說我們的亮點要讓大家就是來了就印象深刻別人在幫我們推廣這個更好所以但是呢現在目前我們今天大家都在想要太討論的就是說我們的燈會"},{"start":16121.67,"end":16128.756,"text":"我們燈會也是觀光的一個亮點希望更多人進來但是呢我們的停車位從2016年的2.5萬減少了現在是8000位這樣子的話每年吸引10萬人潮但是呢交通的問題不變這樣的話也會影響大家想要來"},{"start":16148.572,"end":16160.18,"text":"出門了就是要影響這個部分所以要呼應我們的觀光署就是要怎麼樣讓具體的措施要分流、要封路"},{"start":16161.28,"end":16190.331,"text":"除了就是要讓大家來參加我們的燈會也不要影響地方的居民的抱怨這雙方的所以希望這個部分的話我們的交通部還有觀光署這邊增加更多的人來觀光不只考量在日本而已所以在台中四處都是越南的觀光來的我們要這樣這個部分我們一定要重視"},{"start":16191.611,"end":16213.015,"text":"所以要希望我們觀光、觀光署還有我們交通部就是要注重就是人、文、地還有我們的產業、美食還有我們的景色還有我們必須要讓大家想要來的地方這個才是我們重點的理由謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝麥玉珍委員再來有請徐巧欣委員質詢"},{"start":16226.746,"end":16228.428,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請交通部陳部長有請陳部長"},{"start":16236.195,"end":16255.649,"text":"部長我先前呢在這個擔任市議員的時候是這個松山區跟新義區的市議員那當然呢在這個選區劃分上面到立法委員的時期呢那北松山也就是松山機場這一塊呢那劃分出來但當然我們還是很關心在這個整個台北市裡面包含我過去的這個選區的問題"},{"start":16258.09,"end":16272.296,"text":"所以像松山機場的部分其實就有很多噪音就造成包含是周邊的居民他們影響非常的大我想要請教一下為了讓機場周遭的住戶能夠減少影響我們其實在機場周邊是有噪音補償金的這個補償金是總共有93,300戶可以領取並且分為一到三級三級的影響是最大的"},{"start":16287.443,"end":16288.084,"text":"我想問的是從民國87年到現在113年已經過了26年請問我們目前補助了多少戶還有幾戶沒有補助到"},{"start":16300.529,"end":16322.9,"text":"目前是7300戶可是我看委員這邊是9000總共有93000戶總共有93000戶要補助沒有錯嗎但我要問的是說我們總共補助了多少戶這次93000戶裡面我們到底就是他應該要補助的是93000戶沒有錯我給你看的數字很清楚了但是我們目前針對這個26年來到底補助了幾戶"},{"start":16326.442,"end":16330.245,"text":"現在補助到第二級的67分配所以是總共應該也有11100戶那目前補助的是總共是7300萬戶所以大概還有8萬戶左右是還沒有拿到補助的對不對"},{"start":16347.998,"end":16366.171,"text":"而且啊我知道光是在二級的部分也就是65分貝以上以及未達75分貝二級噪音的這個區域裡面還有9603戶沒有辦法被得到他的補償金那部長我要跟您澄清的事情是這是從民國87年到113年我們應該要提撥給他們的補助竟然還有這麼多是沒有補助完成的"},{"start":16373.976,"end":16386.14,"text":"那當然我們知道原因可是如果要把這個補償金發完的話我們算過這個速度以這個速度來講每年你只通知450戶二級的還要21年一級的還要163年總共你要"},{"start":16389.241,"end":16396.847,"text":"你要把它補助完畢需要184年我都不知道死幾次了所以我想要問一下就是說這個補助進度到底要怎麼樣才能讓它盡快的讓居民得到補償否則你設立了這個補助金那民眾呢看得到吃不到然後補助的速度這麼慢這麼慢的情況下大家當然會有所不滿對周邊的住戶來說也相當不公平"},{"start":16415.442,"end":16439.44,"text":"所以想要問的部長是說能不能幫助我們這個東山機場周邊的居民能夠來加快這個補償速度有沒有一些具體的作為跟做法是 報告委員我看這個數字我也覺得不太合理如果是住在那邊的居民也會覺得到184年才能夠拿得到那個真的是太久了是啊 我都死兩三次了"},{"start":16440.02,"end":16466.363,"text":"不過他很像裏面的那個計算的那個補償金的那個規劃的部分有他的一定的公式所以速度才會這麼慢是不是請局長先回答說這個不用回答我已經給你看公式了我們公式我們都知道但我們現在要的是檢討就是說你現在是用17塊乘以最大起重量然後加95塊乘以起飛量減7載這我是知道的但我們希望得到的是一個檢討"},{"start":16467.664,"end":16477.429,"text":"既然已經有補助金然後告訴大家了那就不能用這麼慢的補助方式補助給大家這是我們交通部應該需要檢討的那是不是能夠給我們一個具體的方案來解決這個問題部長能不能夠承諾"},{"start":16482.612,"end":16501.242,"text":"報告委員他目前是針對這個航班的部分航班多班次多他的收取的費用就多然後發給居民的速度就快但是現在航班不是說能夠增加就增加不過計算的公式或許我們可以來檢討一下我們來檢討說計算的公式怎麼樣可以讓他速度再更快一些這個部分我們來討論一下"},{"start":16502.042,"end":16520.298,"text":"好那最後我要問一下這個臺中國際機場的部分那其實像現在剛才很多人都在關心說臺灣的這個旅客數那其實如果說像是臺中國際機場能夠有更多固定的班次跟航班不是用包機的情況的話那或許呢可以提升很多中部的觀光"},{"start":16521.019,"end":16547.522,"text":"像是我對於這個清淨農場非常的在意因為那是我們在國防部這個退伏費的土地那呢南投他們清淨農場在疫情之後他的整個觀光旅客數下降很多所以台中離南投相對近如果能夠有持續的這個包機不是用包機的方式是用定期的定時航班的方式的話可能就可以增加一些旅客尤其我們其實像去年好了我們在國外的這個展覽就有推廣清淨農場"},{"start":16548.823,"end":16573.003,"text":"可是有沒有推廣清淨農場之後他從桃園機場下來要到清淨農場其實老實說對於這一些旅客來說是非常麻煩的所以成效不彰我在國防外交委員會有問過同樣的問題所以我想要拜託因為時間不夠的關係我也想要拜託說未來在這個振興整個台中相關中南部的經濟上面台中機場的航線如果能夠增加更多定期的這個"},{"start":16574.824,"end":16579.205,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":16604.929,"end":16631.429,"text":"部長我們針對於10月25號交通部公布上一週交通事故的死亡資料整體的死亡人數再創7月份的最高單週最高交通部也表示桃園連續4個月死亡人數上升台中市近期大型的事故多所以這個月必須要附中央的檔案匯報來做專案報告"},{"start":16634.011,"end":16651.168,"text":"那這個也是創下了首次首長要這個這個交通部首次要求縣市來報告改善作為這個都好但是呢我們來討論一個計價的這個計算的方式計算的方式那麼交通部的數據"},{"start":16653.109,"end":16658.493,"text":"沒有依照內政部內政部的方式是以10萬人為計算基礎導致道路交通事故的結果它會掩蓋掉我們不分哪一個政黨"},{"start":16669.401,"end":16686.793,"text":"掩蓋掉其中有限市其實如果以內政部的10萬人為基礎他是以民進黨執政的臺南他才是真正的六都當中交通死亡的第一情況所以本席要在這邊請教部長"},{"start":16688.274,"end":16703.022,"text":"也就是我們不希望任何一個縣市有升高也有這樣的現象而且這不分藍綠但是很明顯的我們看出我們深怕的如果以你目前的計算方式跟內政部的計算方式我們怕會有漏網之魚"},{"start":16705.703,"end":16734.467,"text":"會有落網之魚也就是如果以內政部10萬人為基準的計算方式那台南市會是最嚴肅的那所以本席要強調的就是說這個不分藍綠但是我深怕會跑掉了落網之魚的一個改善期所以本席具體建議是不是全國統一制內政部的方式是以10萬人為基準那請教部長是不是"},{"start":16734.927,"end":16761.255,"text":"可以去研討我們目前那個交通部所公布的數字是兩個都有您在說的交通部的數字也有那您在說的這個10萬人的數字也有我們是兩邊綜合評估而且我們這兩個數字其實都一樣上網公告在網路上面的公告這兩個數字都有都一樣都會公告所以本期要跟你討論的也就是說如果以10萬人為基礎來做計算那麼台中市它不是最嚴肅的"},{"start":16762.295,"end":16763.736,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":16782.072,"end":16805.909,"text":"所以我們用的數字會比較側重在行人道安的部分哪一個方式都是我們重要的所以本期要具體給你建議你是不是應該你交通部跟內政部你們的計算方式你不要讓人民去模糊不一樣你的計算方式是之一那人家內政部公布的方式跟你公布的方式是不一那人民會無所謂所以我具體給你建議你們是不是去討論"},{"start":16810.012,"end":16821.265,"text":"你們是不是依照像你現在已經在用那麼是不是依照內政部的方式去檢討或許你還有更佳的方式藉著這個機會好好的專案去研討好不好好不好多久時間告訴本席"},{"start":16826.339,"end":16830.261,"text":"我們一個月以內來討論因為有提出這樣子的意見我們必須要去檢討制度面最重要好不好一個月內來研討本期跟你討論觀光的問題我們截至8月份我們只有496.9萬國際觀光客來臺"},{"start":16846.451,"end":16874.83,"text":"但是國人出境的是1138.8萬人次所以你的差距是將近2.3倍2.3倍那大家你們也提出觀光署也提出一個什麼呢臺灣觀光100亮點100亮點你的目標是什麼觀光署長你自己講你的目標是什麼你自己講我們就是希望能夠活絡你多少人次你的目標我們的多少人次當然我們國旅的部分是1.9億人次"},{"start":16877.592,"end":16883.099,"text":"1.9億就將近2億人次你希望創造國際旅客創造出多少的觀光產值"},{"start":16884.696,"end":16895.863,"text":"是 我們希望透過你希望創造多少 你的KPI對 我們的產值是當時的設定方式是大概記得是700億人次欸 700億你加計觀國際旅客部長你聽創造出要8000億以上的觀光產值我已經給你open book了你自己都講不清楚不好意思 我以為你在提什麼不好意思"},{"start":16913.314,"end":16941.233,"text":"百大亮點的部分部長啊你這個是苦笑啊我告訴你你現在你現在你現在要怎麼樣脫困因為我們國內有一句話說你怎麼協助我們國內的產業你怎麼協助這是嚴肅的議題啊你自己設定的KPI落差那麼大出國跟來我們台灣玩的差了2.3倍那是怎麼辦"},{"start":16942.455,"end":16961.386,"text":"差距那麼多這個目標還是持續在走啊因為產值的部分是有包括兩個部分一個是旅行業、旅館業跟遊樂區業當然第二個部分才是相關產業包括我們石塑油構型的相關產業包括航空業你當任一級主管你要針對你的結果論去討論現在面對的問題"},{"start":16967.223,"end":16987.473,"text":"國內它的經濟高所以要怎麼樣去協助國內我們的觀光產業這才是我們今天討論的重點所以部長你聽到了資料哩哩喇喇方案我希望要精進所以請你去整體研討2.3倍你要怎麼樣去研討"},{"start":16988.493,"end":17007.692,"text":"你怎麼樣去精進方案好不好你怎麼樣協助我們國內的這個觀光旅遊業因為你國內好人家才會進來嘛對不對甚至連我們的都走掉啦那你兩邊落空啊那我們國內的這些觀光業怎麼辦呢你多久時間把方案給本席你去討論你去討論精進方案"},{"start":17010.074,"end":17029.642,"text":"多久時間我們把方案再提供給委員部長你現在在做的就是我告訴你的這個數字是不滿意的你去精進好不好好多久時間告訴本席我們已經有方案但是我還會再跟他們提供精進方案我明年會有一個新的方案提出來給委員"},{"start":17030.602,"end":17041.978,"text":"那換句話說兩個月嘛 對不對現在11月嘛 對不對你兩個月內去檢討依照你目前的方案你怎麼去精進給本期怎麼樣協助國內的產業好不好 謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員接著我們請陳俊宇委員"},{"start":17062.022,"end":17088.725,"text":"好謝謝主席那我想針對那個T-PASS通行月票還有這個觀光旅宿的相關議題做質詢我想請部長跟相關部位的首長部長署長還有市長嘛好部長、署長、局長、吳安我想請教一下針對我們T-PASS通行月票的部分"},{"start":17089.192,"end":17104.701,"text":"那交通部目前研擬一套這個不超過14天的這個定期票那也預計在今年的12月來試辦那我想請教就針對這種短期票券的這個規劃及上路的期程相關內容為何"},{"start":17106.042,"end":17130.269,"text":"目前短天期宜蘭縣是有提出一個三天期的嘛有提出三天期的已經給我們交通部那我們也審查也有一些修正的意見給他們了那目前這個進度是不是請你跟我們報告就是宜蘭縣他提出是三天的這一個就是包括北部要到宜蘭這邊的包括鐵路跟國道科運還有當地的一些交通的一個整合的一個方案那我們已經審查過了"},{"start":17131.289,"end":17146.659,"text":"那宜蘭縣政府剛把就是說這個審查意見的這個修正報告回覆到我們這邊我們是希望能夠協助宜蘭縣政府將配套措施把它做好希望能夠在年底能夠推出來好 所以宜蘭縣政府所送的審查這個申請案件應該是沒問題了"},{"start":17147.7,"end":17162.507,"text":"原則上應該是可以目前是三天期的我想再請教一下我們在整合觀光旅宿要來帶動整個國旅的振興我們要如何來推銷我們給國際的觀光客"},{"start":17166.349,"end":17182.286,"text":"我們剛剛講的這個配套的這個票券我們現在有台灣PASS嘛對我們那是叫台灣PASS那我們希望剛剛部長也在講希望能夠北北基先做北北基以這個部分看有沒有機會跟TPASS做整合"},{"start":17183.047,"end":17198.539,"text":"那這邊涉及到這個兩個部分一個是技術面的這個部分就是有關於他的後端的這個都不一樣的系統那第二個就是清分其實TPAS能夠成功其實要有人去清分那個帳"},{"start":17199.9,"end":17227.163,"text":"臺灣PASS是比較單純所以我們做裝我們希望把T-PASS變成臺灣PASS的部分我們後端的部分會再找我們叫優卡公司因為它主要還是清分T-PASS也是如此我們希望能夠一起整合這樣的話對觀光來講是非常方便的那我們在機場、在港口、在網路上會不會有相對應的配套的行銷方式"},{"start":17227.934,"end":17248.087,"text":"行銷的部分我們就是因為它是兩套系統那我們台灣PASS是在國際就有在通路有在行銷那TPASS的部分我們也可以在入境的部分來做推廣那這個部分如果這個TPASS的2.0能夠確定上路的話那我們這個部分的國際行銷就同步上路"},{"start":17248.427,"end":17262.498,"text":"好另外那針對宜蘭縣的這個我們的觀光旅宿迎寒冬的部分那因為宜蘭縣富有非常豐富的這個平原還有山林及龜山島海域的這個溫泉共19處那"},{"start":17265.578,"end":17280.477,"text":"我希望說我們政府應該積極的來協助結合我們17處的休閒農業區來建置一個跨部會的溫泉發展平台一起來打造宜蘭縣成為溫泉大縣有沒有可能"},{"start":17281.625,"end":17310.348,"text":"那個部長非常重視了那所以東山河這個部分有些相關的我們也有合訂了這次競爭型計畫有將近3億元的部分我覺得應該可以打造一個很新的亮點那礁溪蘇澳這邊有很多甚至叫冷泉那我們覺得溫泉跟冷泉的行銷可以做一些鏈接那我們是有補助一些國際行銷費用但是我們覺得還是需要可以加大力道了"},{"start":17311.108,"end":17336.05,"text":"那我們是滾動式檢討剛剛署長您說的這個東山河在上個月我們也啟動了可是在園區裡面我們只看到規劃兩間這個攤屋分別是這個12坪跟16坪的攤屋那未來有沒有可能規劃擴展的空間的計畫您的建議我們會把它納入就是說未來再做擴展那我們現在"},{"start":17336.75,"end":17366.013,"text":"已經有補助接近3億元那這個部分我們先來做那把這個擴大的部分拉進來討論看可以做到什麼樣的程度那對於這個台灣好湯台灣好湯的這個溫泉美食嘉年華這是宜蘭縣算是冬季的一個行銷的一個重點那再加上其他我們地方型的這種小型的活動那有沒有可能我們為了來振興這個旅宿優惠補助的方面我們有沒有辦法來加碼"},{"start":17367.701,"end":17386.619,"text":"我們可以秋冬的部分研究看看有沒有溫泉的套票那最近ITF在推廣的時候有很多旅宿他們也在推套票那我也看到溫泉業者他們也很努力我想應該這個部分應該透過這樣的一個旅展應該效益應該還可以看得到"},{"start":17387.219,"end":17414.978,"text":"好我還是期待啦期待因為剛剛講的我們宜蘭縣除了有豐富的這個水資源齁我們不管是溫泉、冷泉那還有17處的休閒農業區啦我希望說我們跨部會一起來建置一個平台共同來行銷讓宜蘭縣不管是寒冬或是一年四季我們的這個觀光旅宿都能夠蓬勃發展好謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝局長好謝謝陳俊宇委員接下來我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":17435.287,"end":17438.189,"text":"有請我們的陳部長陳部長請部長午安這週又見面了希望透過這樣的一個質詢真的可以逐步把交通改善所以今天要問的事實上就會是我們的駕照考訓制度"},{"start":17461.565,"end":17483.703,"text":"那我們來看那個14期的院方方案部長在省基部在前年在110年的時候年度的那個中央政府總決算報告裡邊他就說針對一些問題他就提到臺灣的駕照太好考所以是事故傷亡的主因不好認同這樣子的一個觀點嗎"},{"start":17485.114,"end":17501.899,"text":"我覺得考照的過程絕對會有影響對於未來對於這個道路安全的觀念或者是技術一定會有影響是 所以你們在去年交通部就會提出這個第14期的願幫方案裡邊也持續對於考照制度"},{"start":17502.399,"end":17504.58,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":17519.997,"end":17548.496,"text":"我請局長回答跟委員報告就是說因為考照的部分的話基本上考照前的訓練的話包括汽車跟機車那機車的部分的話就是說目前大概都是有強化就是包括到駕訓班還有就是說這個到道路上面的一個訓練那汽車的部分同樣就是說我們在這一個包括比試跟入考的部分我想我們也是持續在做相關的一個加強它的難度"},{"start":17548.916,"end":17550.937,"text":"楊明大學研究公路局在機車考訓政策上的努力"},{"start":17567.982,"end":17594.376,"text":"執行我們很好地去執行道路的駕訓訓練後的確我們的事故跟違規風險就會很明顯地下降那既然國內有這樣子的一個研究所以駕訓我們的駕駛訓練與否對事故的防治事實上是非常有顯著的相關性所以想問部長既然有研究的支持那你是否認同我們應該全面推動我們的駕駛訓練教育"},{"start":17596.698,"end":17613.276,"text":"這個部分我們當然是支持所以我也交代說這個機車駕訓的部分我們不管是訓前或訓後的整體這個整個駕訓我們要再加碼本來我們鼓勵的數字還要再擴大但有一個問題現在機車駕訓的部分它的駕訓班的數量"},{"start":17616.679,"end":17639.391,"text":"不一定那麼足夠那這個部分我們正在輔導一些業者可以多設置一些駕訓班這一方面二方面是我們對於駕訓的補助我們希望再擴大在明年度會再做更多的人次來鼓勵我期待部長能夠針對這個問題可是我現在有幾個問題要來跟你討論問題一這邊可以看到就是我們國內的駕訓班大概都是成本考量"},{"start":17640.151,"end":17665.638,"text":"沒有落實到法規要求的一個場地訓練跟我們的道路駕駛的訓練時數所以左手邊事實上是管理辦法裡邊去要求的可是業界的慣例可以看到很多時候師生筆跟你的法規事實上是不太一樣的授課的時數事實上也有很大的落差這是我從業界拿到的一些相關數據所以我覺得讓可能要去思考一下到底你的法規跟你到落地去"},{"start":17666.378,"end":17667.619,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":17687.047,"end":17707.348,"text":"路就是不太一樣因為你要在實際的狀況裡邊能夠去跟人家互動才有辦法去了解那再來看問題3也就是我們的數科考試過於比較形式化因為除了普小客車以外其他的車種沒有道路的考驗目前只有真的事實上是小客車其他沒有還有我們的考"},{"start":17708.448,"end":17728.181,"text":"車輛的檢查考試過於形式你的一個考官問他說有沒有看到你有沒有確定他車輛到底怎麼檢查因為你要行前一定要做一些檢查可是事實上都沒有再來問題是那大客車更讓我們擔心尤其最近又發生一些大客車你事實上是有補助的"},{"start":17728.641,"end":17754.722,"text":"你有相對的訓練費用的政府補助那難道不能去要求嗎因為上禮拜我就要求我們的交通部應該對大客貨車的安全管理提出一些檢討可是有關這大客車的這樣的駕訓裡邊是不是更要站在前面去做處理可是看起來我們目前很多事實上是沒有配套的在下一頁那日本事實上他們對於我們的"},{"start":17756.443,"end":17782.738,"text":"教練的資格、場地的規格跟訓練的設施設備跟車輛不知道部長有沒有去看過其他的你的駕訓班裡面這些設施設備已經是不是老舊人家事實上是有一定規格的要求而且教練的資格是有要求的我們的教練呢事實上國中學歷跟高中學歷的不太一樣的程度只要擁有我們的所謂的要教的車種的執照五年或三年或兩年"},{"start":17783.798,"end":17810.698,"text":"可是這樣是國家級的考試甚至當然你如果是要求的言那當然你的勞動條件要好有的人才會來所以我們有沒有合理的收費可是我們又有收費的一些限制來下一頁所以我針對我們的家訓考照的制度期待你是不是政策應該先兼顧我們的胡蘿蔔與棍棒公務局是不是可以研擬具體可行的訓練規劃然後配合補助政策"},{"start":17811.138,"end":17812.6,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":17830.021,"end":17854.836,"text":"調整我們大客車的駕訓、考照制度來改善無意義的等待期間用大客車中間有個等待期間所以嚴厲相對應的值錢訓練來落實我們的道路駕駛那部長這三點可不可以兩個禮拜內提供書面來回覆因為時間的關係可以啦那我們這三點我們綜合考量兩禮拜內給委員再麻煩部長因為這件事情蠻重要謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":17858.117,"end":17873.872,"text":"好謝謝林月琴委員好謝謝部長好接下來鄭振淺、鄭振淺、鄭振淺、鄭振淺委員不在我們張家駿、張家駿、張家駿、張家駿委員不在好我們接下來請陳冠廷委員"},{"start":17889.454,"end":17890.018,"text":"你好我們請部長好麻煩陳部長"},{"start":17900.293,"end":17923.73,"text":"部長好部長好這個上禮拜五在總預算諮詢的時候那我們有諮詢外交部次長那關於在台印之間的直航那因為疫情中斷那目前有沒有在跟外交部來討論復航的相關計畫那外交部的吳次長有說會盡快跟這個交通部討論那做一些背景資料嘛那印度他是第五大經濟體"},{"start":17925.093,"end":17952.549,"text":"臺印雙邊的貿易額從2006年的20億美元增加到2002年的109億美元所以他的這個貿易額也好或者是產業的這個我們包含我們去有些各個重要的我們企業去印度的投資那我相信他這一個成長的速度是非常快的那在這樣的成長的速度因為疫情暫時停歇的這個航線這個未來的狀況是怎麼樣是不是可以請部長簡單的跟我們回應一下"},{"start":17953.289,"end":17982.415,"text":"是 這個部分我們民航局其實有一定的了解我是不是請民航局講好 謝謝跟委員報告因為臺映的航權就是我們目前是分配給長榮跟華航那長榮是沒有直飛他是透過co-share的方式來執行那華航的部分目前是沒有計畫在做處理那所以有關航權的部分或者是鼓勵業者的部分我們目前我們會鼓勵他然後也會盡快來看看這個航權的運用怎麼做充分的運用"},{"start":17983.585,"end":18011.792,"text":"謝謝局長我必須要提醒就是雙邊的關係是越來越弱弱那特別是在這幾年印度的這個經濟成長路還有跟我國的包含學生他的這個學生的成長幅度也很快那現在已經有在臺的印度學生也好或是未來可能開放的這些技術的高科技人員也好我們去的或者是他們來的都會有很明顯幅度的成長那其實印方也有多次來跟我們"},{"start":18012.392,"end":18037.42,"text":"表示說希望有這樣的機會來加強兩國的人員之間的這樣的交流那航線特別是有直飛的話是最方便最快速的方式所以當然一切都是必須以經濟考量為主但是經濟考量不應單一指應單一航線而是必須想到兩國的經貿夥伴關係那這個部分是希望說可以來討論一下那特別提醒今年"},{"start":18038.4,"end":18059.253,"text":"應該是說去年2023年到現在有相繼的幾個在印度成立的新的辦事處在孟買的辦事處也成立了所以我認為這是一個很好的契機外交部的辦事處也對在駐印的辦事處所以這個部分還是希望說有機會的話可以跟我國的這個航空業者稍微溝通一下這樣子去討論一下"},{"start":18061.015,"end":18076.903,"text":"委員我再補充一點除了我國籍的部分以外其實我們也跟外交部跟相關單位在講印度籍的業者其實我們也非常好雙向就是這個都是我們都鼓勵那第二個部分要正式高空局局長"},{"start":18082.27,"end":18103.853,"text":"局長我在10月14日的時候質詢說在我們國道3號我們嘉義縣市現在有4個交通道偵測番路出口告示的規劃那我這邊先肯定一下就是上週已經有回復到那會在我們國道3號中埔交通南向北向的出口那邊來去偵測這個直立型的番路的地名的這個指示標誌"},{"start":18104.614,"end":18130.183,"text":"那今年年底就會完成那我們其實不僅僅是翻入鄉是整個山區的鄉長都非常感謝因為在這近三四年來自從疫情結束之後那我們整個大阿里山地區那經過翻入的這個不管是各種節慶活動那確實是需要這樣子適當的標示那有這樣的標示會讓用路人特別是從外縣市來的人能夠更快速的找到"},{"start":18131.304,"end":18134.967,"text":"有限公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":18152.284,"end":18155.486,"text":"這部分我還是認為說大致同意啦但是我們還是認為不要把地名標誌在超車道上面"},{"start":18179.124,"end":18182.809,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":18191.844,"end":18217.444,"text":"主要是方向性的一個部分那是按次序來就交流道的位置的次序這樣擺的那不是說對應的說你要走哪個車道才能到哪一個地方對我的意思是說像比方說我們在梅山竹崎就是有民眾來反映說他們會誤以為超車道就是在那一個出口那我是說有沒有可能在視覺設置上面來再去做改進依照你們的專業意見為準然後是把民眾的反應來跟大家說明一下我們了解"},{"start":18218.324,"end":18241.323,"text":"這個應該要檢討一下趙偉是不是可以再一分鐘最後一個問題好謝謝趙偉那最後是跟台鐵相關喔那台鐵時刻資訊喔那我想請董事長來簡單的來回應一下那這個主題我們今天的主題是優化國旅的體驗但是現在台北之戰越台今年更新的台鐵的系統資訊叫做這個Train Information Display System"},{"start":18241.983,"end":18251.831,"text":"那很多民眾他們在講到這個視覺效果比方說這個閱讀不易他的中文的字眼只給16乘以16的燈泡那這是一個部分那對於這些"},{"start":18253.581,"end":18280.099,"text":"對於眼睛比較不好的民眾他們可能很難去看清楚說為什麼有襯現的字體又在這麼小的這個顯示區域裡面他的這個視覺的方面可能我們是希望說未來台鐵可以再檢討一下調整是不是調整版面調整字體大小或者是用不同的顏色加注那特別是不開放站票的圖示是不是也要來標誌上去這個部分是有很多民眾在反映我們是希望說有機會的話來去檢討一下這個顯示器的狀況"},{"start":18284.442,"end":18303.94,"text":"好 這個跟委員報告我們有在持續在檢討 我們會來做改進好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員 謝謝部長洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在下一位蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":18305.271,"end":18330.065,"text":"黃珊珊、黃珊珊、黃珊珊、黃珊珊委員不在紅生漢、紅生漢、紅生漢、紅生漢委員不在高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在王美惠、王美惠、王美惠、王美惠委員不在賴瑞龍、賴瑞龍、賴瑞龍、賴瑞龍委員不在我們接下來請黃國昌委員"},{"start":18340.727,"end":18342.839,"text":"信樂主席麻煩有請部長好麻煩部長"},{"start":18352.453,"end":18378.032,"text":"部長第一個事情比較簡單就是9月26、10月14、10月23號三次質詢我們都有說可能要麻煩交通部的同仁給我一些資料我一直追到今天早上都沒有提供我覺得不要把質詢的時間花在要資料上這真的是情何以堪真的是情何以堪我相信部長可以接受第二個事情是說"},{"start":18379.173,"end":18397.025,"text":"我覺得行政立法部門大家良心互動你們做了承諾我相信你們的承諾就請履行承諾答應要給又沒有給我到今天早上還是沒拿到這樣不好了是不是可以拜託部長回去注意跟他們說明一下就是說"},{"start":18398.145,"end":18418.674,"text":"該給的要給要不然這樣以後大家互動起來關係會越來越惡劣我相信也不是部長希望看到的啦有一個事情我覺得對部長來講我不知道部長是不是很熟悉但我很熟悉我特別要幫這些車主請命我第一次2016到2020那個時候在"},{"start":18422.015,"end":18432.101,"text":"擔任立委的時候我就接到很多馬自達車主的抗議啦花了上百萬結果買到一台車問題一堆車子開一半結果"},{"start":18434.039,"end":18457.821,"text":"水箱、引擎問題一堆甚至會出現爆炸的狀況對於行車安全影響非常的大那時候那一群車主憤怒到什麼程度來我特別貼當年的照片給部長看去行政院抗議甚至後來火大上凱道那個時候我有質詢了我們當初的交通部部長林佳龍林部長然後林部長說"},{"start":18459.853,"end":18481.36,"text":"算了他前面第一次回答我的時候我問他說他願不願意負起責任進行安全性的調查他說他要釐清嘛那第二次在質詢的時候啊那個陳司長文瑞應該就是您站在您旁邊的這一位吧是陳文瑞嗎陳文瑞在那邊在那邊嘛那個陳司長文瑞你還記不記得那時候我質詢這件事啊"},{"start":18482.04,"end":18500.682,"text":"所以要在國會殿堂承諾啊哇你那時候講得很有魄力啊你講什麼來我唸給你聽啊車商要提出第二次召回改正的計畫確保有效性除了更換軟體程式沒有辦法修復就要更換引擎啊市長那時候我聽你講這句話我好感動啊"},{"start":18501.443,"end":18524.995,"text":"終於有一個有魄力的行政官員在國會殿堂對所有馬自達的車主啊做這樣子的宣示啊大家聽了都很感動啊但是感動完是什麼啊來我再帶大家看一下結果咧馬自達接下來的召回承諾跳票跳票到今天喔2024年喔"},{"start":18527.264,"end":18555.471,"text":"依舊故障沒有辦法結案今年我們審預算的時候我還特別去看了車安中心的預算車安中心一年預算好幾億裡面的車輛安全計畫還是有包括馬自達所有的車主現在陷入迷惘我們政府的承諾到底算不算數部長我剛剛聽您在旁邊的部署交投結合我相信這應該是你第一次碰到的事情你花一點時間回去了解一下好不好"},{"start":18556.035,"end":18580.313,"text":"他目前應該是有召回啦但是召回之後很像該處理沒有啦部長我這樣跟你講好了啦因為你第一次碰到這個問題如果問題太尖銳的話對你也不公平你回去瞭解一下實際的狀況所謂有召回是我們所謂的lip servicelip service就是出一張嘴動一動如果他真的有做到的話今天不會有這麼多"},{"start":18580.993,"end":18607.486,"text":"一定是有召回沒解決問題是是是不會有這麼多憤怒的車主嘛那個我相信當初很有氣魄做這個承諾的那個陳文睿司長他一定會給你更多背景的資訊我們今天第一次我針對馬自達的這個事情我跟部長報告我幫這些可憐的車主陳情因為有很多齁其實是年輕人跟中產階級"},{"start":18609.195,"end":18632.693,"text":"年輕人跟中產階級是花一百多萬去買一台車大概有很多可能都超過他的年輕人啦大家要省吃減用甚至分期付款結果買到一台車沒有辦法解決新的問題對他們生活所造成的困擾、障礙跟影響到現在沒有辦法解決一個車主"},{"start":18635.836,"end":18638.841,"text":"各一個大車廂小蝦米對大鯨魚兩者之間"},{"start":18642.202,"end":18664.835,"text":"在各方面的條件完全沒有辦法相比所以這些車主為什麼會希望我們的交通部要出來主持公道特別是什麼特別是我們還有車安中心車安中心裡面的計畫召回改正的監督、安全性的分析、瑕疵的調查在跟立法院要預算的時候白紙黑字都這樣寫"},{"start":18666.158,"end":18688.246,"text":"但你不可以白紙黑字跟立法院要預算說這些我都要做實際都沒有做當你實際都沒有做的時候這些可憐無辜受害的車主就會來問我們立法委員所以你們預算在省什麼東西你給他預算說要做這些事情結果通通都沒有做搞到現在這些車主欲哭無淚因為"},{"start":18691.004,"end":18720.339,"text":"第一次把這個問題搬到檯面上請教部長那麻煩部長回去了解一下這個事情的狀況接下來要怎麼解決一個禮拜之內書面文回覆我可以嗎可以啊可以可以一個禮拜之內這次沒有問題了嗎沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝黃國昌委員好謝謝部長陳金威陳金威陳金威陳金威委員不在"},{"start":18724.404,"end":18745.376,"text":"葉元之葉元之葉元之葉元之委員不在李柏毅李柏毅李柏毅李柏毅委員不在登記執行委員拘禁發言完畢做以下決定一報告及答詢完畢"},{"start":18746.653,"end":18761.746,"text":"二、委員林倩琦、黃建豪所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":18767.985,"end":18772.707,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園"},{"start":18791.274,"end":18795.816,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":18818.728,"end":18821.956,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"}]}},{"id":"156461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4082e26205b1e4d449d4c3126a5d15bfb6660e0fa166fcc38d5cbf5781e8931119d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"14:49:10 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暫停時間 因為等著主席詢問阿你要統一回答嗎 你把時間講完齁我會統一回答你統一回答啦齁因為為什麼我渴望得到子學答案呢因為大家都在說阿 這個陳委員因為他在金門金門的酒廠每年貢獻給金門縣政府的收益多於中央政府撥的那現在呢 主席知道我們屏東縣每年可以從中央得到多少益助嗎時間暫停"},{"start":64.193,"end":64.213,"text":"報告"},{"start":65.203,"end":94.477,"text":"我繼續講那我是為什麼要問這個問題呢因為大家都希望辦公廳會也希望說地方政府能夠派員參加我過去擔任過地方政府的副縣長我很清楚知道每次在談到財化法都是都跟非都在那邊吵不停地方政府的水平分配永遠大家都有意見那我再請教一下主席金門大學的預算是誰撥的金門高中的預算是誰撥的第三個問題我在那邊聽一下主席的回答"},{"start":97.288,"end":115.263,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員特別關注我們金門跟各位委員報告金門縣的財政自主率是全國排名第三名僅次於台北、新竹是全國第三名我們的財政自主率大概之前佔6成以上那第二點您說屏東的那個那個決場的收益是佔多少"},{"start":116.684,"end":131.612,"text":"九場的收益佔金門縣的財政一年預算是120億我們金門縣一年捐贈金門縣政府是大概40億再加上我們所交的稅給中央的稅是30億所以金九公司佔金門財政60%的收益"},{"start":134.153,"end":155.378,"text":"所謂的財政自主意義是相當高的謝謝謝謝關心第二個屏東縣的不好意思我沒有關心屏東縣這個可能是你們來回答第三個有關金門高中跟金門大學金門縣政府除了中央政府所撥的預算金門縣政府本身每一年還補助金門大學跟金門高中相關的學校營養午餐、交通費、圖書費再加上"},{"start":161.9,"end":183.615,"text":"大學文明還補助獎學金還有3年10個億的預算這是金門縣政府提供給國立學校地方補助中央的例子好 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T14:47:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T14:48:52+08:00","duration":79,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.3934687500000003,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.672843750000006,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.60784375,"end":79.29284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.592,"end":21.96,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝主席跟各位委員都討論得很辛苦所以本席今天只是來補充一段話從過去扁政府、馬政府再到蔡政府現在的執政長都希望地方可以有多一點的財源而且是法定保障的財源也呼籲要修財化法我舉例各位很多委員當時也都還在這個地方"},{"start":22.62,"end":39.613,"text":"蔡總統任內首位葛奎林全院長他就院後來立院備詢他不光是表態要修《財化法》還說他規劃了許多讓地方政府在《財化法》修法以後財源只增不減的方案而且能讓非直轄市再一步一步的拉起來"},{"start":40.333,"end":60.898,"text":"另外林前院長還曾經分享他2002年回來台灣當陳水扁總統執政的財政部長時就有這樣子的感悟他講過很多句經典的名言也相信許多委員當時都曾經聽過這些話也呼應他財化法如果不改國家是沒希望的這是邁向中央財政正軌的最初"},{"start":61.778,"end":78.689,"text":"不加減法,原因很簡單,他有點出來說,地方表面自治,但財政權卻握在中央手上。地方最大的動機是跟政府要錢,政府也沒給地方開源節流的環境,變成一種惡性循環,根本達不到地方自治的境界。時間到了,好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"156459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408725ed08978000b034c3126a5d15bfb6660e0fa166fcc38d575b8ca2af51068035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"14:45:29 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這個我回答了還有什麼會議詢問 下一輪紀律我覺得我對於疑似程序就是在你不能講說你是從日本來你比較遠你就是可以這個樣子這跟距離沒有關係謝謝"},{"start":101.662,"end":105.305,"text":"下一輪可以講久一點,然後別人講的時候不要插嘴囉接著我們請邱政軍委員邱政軍、邱政軍、邱政軍"}]}},{"id":"156455","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4084cf174c0687f4bfe4c3126a5d15bfb6660e0fa166fcc38d5bb206ea06e1c8f725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"14:33:12 - 14:37:10","影片長度":"00:03:58","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T14:30:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T14:31:46+08:00","duration":81,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0772187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.16534375,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.66284375,"end":72.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.72409375000001,"end":76.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.21721875,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.68971875000001,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.94659375,"end":80.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.551,"text":"在討論齁好陳委員請發言"},{"start":6.687,"end":29.814,"text":"在短短的一分鐘之內我還是要先謝謝主席給了我從來沒有過的體驗不管是我以前在上課或是我到立法院來上班之後所有的質詢、所有的討論都必須要在一分鐘之內完成主席剛剛在洗手間的時候還要特別的提醒我現在是會議詢問那麼我強烈要求主席"},{"start":33.015,"end":46.03,"text":"如果等一下你要針對每一個委員的發言都有所評論也請你控制你自己的時間在一分鐘以內我想這樣是比較公平的另外我只剩下20秒我想要"},{"start":48.052,"end":48.072,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":77.762,"end":78.966,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"156472","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156472","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4089d5ef68e942892b84c3126a5d15bfb668414a6dac3d22ef1608b7010f5f8dc8a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"15:41:04 - 15:44:12","影片長度":"00:03:08","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra 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對不對剛才大家都很肯定他當時是修財政紀律法以他對財政紀律法之賢熟那他也支持我們現在此時此刻應該去檢討修正財劃法"},{"start":102.364,"end":108.027,"text":"所以,拿財政紀律法當作黨鍵牌,事實上是不倫不類。另外,我也覺得很奇怪,按照民進黨同仁所說的、口中所說的史上最爛的版本,"},{"start":123.075,"end":126.617,"text":"這個版本呢每一個直轄市在修法之後都可以增加200億以上每一個直轄市都能夠增加200億以上所以我就很納悶了為什麼我們這些新北或者我們高雄的委員或者台南的委員要如此抗拒"},{"start":145.387,"end":164.214,"text":"如果你今天所處的縣市以我台北市來講我可以增加200億以上我當然歡迎啊我當然舉雙手歡迎啊這會使得我們的地方財政更加健全我們的地方財政的自主率更加的一個健康"},{"start":165.393,"end":174.856,"text":"有何不可為什麼要拒這樣的一個修法於千里之外我真的覺得很奇怪如果你真的了解如果你有認真的去看這個版本每一個直轄市增加200億元以上"},{"start":182.378,"end":201.014,"text":"但是大家講說 哎呀 直銷市一位怎麼辦呢?也跟大家報告 統籌分配款項的67%也按人口數的比例去分配給22個縣市所以 這一次國民黨團所提出來的修法版本 非常重要的一個"},{"start":201.955,"end":216.661,"text":"原則就是每一個縣市不分藍綠不分黨派執政的縣市所有的統籌款通通可以增加所有財政自主的比例"},{"start":217.461,"end":233.094,"text":"的資源通通可以增加。而縣市能夠自主而不是養中央鼻息的這些資源通通可以增加。我想請問一下我們坐在這邊,我們不是有很多都是各縣市的選民選出來的嗎?"},{"start":237.958,"end":253.63,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況如果請我們所有民進黨的委員你們有意見的話好好用功念一下這個版本你們就知道所有縣市的分配款通通可以增加"}]}},{"id":"156469","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156469","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408a74d53bb4147bc664c3126a5d15bfb668414a6dac3d22ef18775ffc34e28c48f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"15:27:49 - 15:31:52","影片長度":"00:04:03","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai 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謝謝主席在這裡要先給主席做一個請求 也做一個拜託希望本主席程序還原後 請你不要做評論 可以嗎"},{"start":29.793,"end":30.293,"text":"國民黨委員批評民進黨政府"},{"start":53.504,"end":58.308,"text":"就是在整個程序的一個過程裡頭就是財劃法的一個過程裡頭我們一直在擋擋擋為什麼會擋呢當然就是說這個財劃法我們也當然大家都知道經過5次的一個修法他已經面臨到很大很大的一個問題大家知道這一個"},{"start":75.001,"end":92.259,"text":"法有沒有辦法修?當然是沒有辦法修。如果有辦法修的話為什麼要拖這麼長的一個時間?那這個也特別特別就是說針對今天財化法的修正審查案裡頭我還是主張我們應該要認真的去看待"},{"start":92.879,"end":111.809,"text":"就是我們要把每一個就是不管是國民黨還是民眾黨他們所提出來的一個草案我們建議不急於修正然後在現行的法規之下中央跟地方的一個財政的一個分配那我們必須要充分的一個討論這個討論的過程裡頭我們非常敬重賴思寶委員賴思寶委員他其實在那個"},{"start":120.214,"end":146.168,"text":"之前提出財政紀律法那在第五條他就有規定他說立法委員所提出的一個法例案大幅增加政府的一個稅出或是減少那個稅入都應該要先具體並且指明彌補資金的一個來源但是這一次在草案增加中央支出給地方多達4千多億我們並沒有就是怎麼說明說要彌補"},{"start":147.228,"end":174.28,"text":"然後反之如果說從中央的一個稅入來看的話我們也可以說減少了地方應該交給中央的錢也就是減少了稅入那這第7條那我們也規定立法機關制定或修正法案的時候不得增加固定的一個比例的保障但是這一次的修正直接調整了財劃法在中央與地方的一個分配地方稅的一個比例"},{"start":175.48,"end":193.149,"text":"並且增加了地方可以拿到的一個固定的比例他就是違反了這一條的一個規定並且還直接規定台北市可以拿到3%這就是所謂那個李坤誠講的這個金孫3%條款我知道"},{"start":193.889,"end":221.167,"text":"我在這裡也再跟大家做充分的說明台北市的3%它被保留國民黨黨團提案的第16條之一規定普通普通統籌分配稅款的分配方式的第5條他說建議台北市身為所都可以保留可提供的分配款項3%給台北市但是現行的法規就是我們在憲法裡頭並沒有明定首都"},{"start":222.448,"end":228.991,"text":"這個首都就是我們在講的那因此這一條根本就是不能實施"}]}},{"id":"156468","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156468","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408145bdac08e3694ec4c3126a5d15bfb668414a6dac3d22ef1b88d7f28b768b82a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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謝謝主席齁我序名在先財劃法我有提案版本第三條的條文修正那為什麼我要特別講這一段因為我質詢這一題啊將近四年始終得到的回應就是告訴我說要連同地制法、公債法一併的來修才能夠處理"},{"start":36.368,"end":55.341,"text":"所以我也是很希望啊地制法還有公債法甚至是未來我們可能還會談到並修財政紀律法等等很多的作用法所以我在這邊要特別的說明那接下來我有一個小小的請求我說至少在財化法邀請各縣市的時候"},{"start":62.966,"end":71.316,"text":"應該把我們這六都的園區要找過來啊因為我們要對抗的是縣市政府啊那你找縣市政府來講他當然不會為這些園區講話啊所以我也還在等啊沒有啊"},{"start":79.605,"end":107.435,"text":"所以我要再講一次2010年修財化法、地治法的時候把這些合併的原鄉讓他們失去了公法人地位但是我們修法的疏漏在2014年的時候竟然恢復了公法人地位卻沒有恢復他們獨立的財政收支系統這是很嚴重的錯誤所以"},{"start":108.996,"end":136.302,"text":"我一定要講啊 要支持喔好 那另外呢 我要再講很多地方縣市我也有去問我想每個地方政府他們的財主單位也不是傻瓜啊他們很多人告訴我說算一算 划不來 討不到便宜因為多年前我們在處理財劃法的時候就是希望中央地方通力合作"},{"start":137.423,"end":164.073,"text":"我們也看到這8年來長短期的負債可以說逐年的下降而我們的地方補助款一般性的補助款或者是各部會的這些計劃性補助款是逐年的上升那很多人其實是非常的仰賴中央的一個補助而不是很擔心說未來左支右促"},{"start":165.173,"end":189.565,"text":"窮於應付我想這個是很多人的疑慮所以未來我們是不是我舉一個簡單的例子像我們原住民現在的文建站九年前一年不到一億現在是一年13億他們就問如果這個財劃法以後不知道變成什麼樣中央會不會沒錢來做這些了"},{"start":190.646,"end":207.807,"text":"又或者像我們很多的法令我們都看得到啊像是就業服務法22年前定了一個原住民人口2萬人以上要設立公立的就業服務中心各縣市政府22年來沒有一個願意啊最後還不是拜託勞動部"},{"start":209.769,"end":228.044,"text":"所以我講我的疑慮很多你剛剛提到原住民這個部分我們是不是在邀請哥先生我們好好請他們說邀請鄭俊貴我就在等啊我們在邀請中給大家邀請但是我不知道他們會不會來我們就是邀請你可以提供看第二個是哪一個給我們委員會要尊重你提供資料給我們我們來邀請謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"156473","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156473","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408c60b7890c9efeddc4c3126a5d15bfb668414a6dac3d22ef17e067b1efe2647ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"15:45:21 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T15:45:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T15:48:26+08:00","duration":185,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":89.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.67096875,"end":182.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.66471875000002,"end":185.68971875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.649,"end":18.034,"text":"謝謝主席,主席辛苦了從早上到現在我們看到財化法一定要進入到主條但是看起來民進黨黨團是反對財化法的修正所以透過程序這樣杯葛其實已經第一輪、第二輪大家不斷地發言"},{"start":19.935,"end":36.227,"text":"但是本期在這邊也希望說等一下如果大家連續發言是不是可以發言過的內容不用再重複一次畢竟官員的時間也很寶貴這些官員已經從早上做到現在聆聽各位委員的高見那已經很久了"},{"start":36.727,"end":63.328,"text":"我認為如果大家對於財化法有任何的意見進到實質的具體的修法內容大家好好的來論戰你認為哪邊不合理不應該這樣修然後把自己的意見充分的表達出來我想這個才是作為國會議員我們在國會問政裡面可以展現各自專業的一面那這樣子一個程序的杯葛我想適度就好"},{"start":64.108,"end":87.469,"text":"應該要進入到實質的討論首先關於這個《財化法》的修正事實上已經長達25年我們說法都要與時俱進一部法案如果已經長達25年沒有修正難道不應該回過頭來檢視這裡面中央跟地方的財政分配這個比例是不是有失衡的問題從今審的時候"},{"start":92.113,"end":106.768,"text":"當時88年是中央地方是60比40到現在113年最新的資料中央佔75地方佔25那這樣的一個情況不是已經開始傾斜嗎?是不是應該要適度的調整回來?"},{"start":107.549,"end":130.776,"text":"另外對於財政比較困窘的縣市像嘉義縣來講嘉義縣的財政非常的困難那難道在整個統籌分配稅款我們對於相對財政困難的縣市不應該在這一次的調整當中我們在非六都的縣市也應該要多爭取經費讓各縣市的首長"},{"start":131.516,"end":146.999,"text":"他們有足夠的財源可以去進行地方的建設嗎?所以這次的財化法的修正剛剛有委員提到說不應該但是你如果去問問22個縣市地方的首長請問有哪一個首長認為是不應該哪一個首長會跳出來反對包括我們當今的賴清德總統過去在地方擔任首長的時候"},{"start":159.741,"end":182.393,"text":"他也認為財劃法有不公平之處應該要重新修正所以今天有關於財劃法這個134要進入主條的修正我在這邊呼籲我們是不是委員會大家的委員還有外委會的委員大家都可以秉持專業、公平、理性這樣的態度來思考這樣的一個修法方向以上謝謝謝謝王毅你們委員"}]}},{"id":"156466","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca40862f03e28e68decc54c3126a5d15bfb668414a6dac3d22ef163cfaa1421ca07f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"15:14:56 - 15:18:37","影片長度":"00:03:41","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T15:14:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T15:18:37+08:00","duration":221,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.45284375,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.11471875,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.9790937500000005,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.223468750000002,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.535343750000003,"end":15.437843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.722843750000003,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.75784375,"end":212.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.04409375,"end":221.32971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.509,"end":26.75,"text":"主席各位同仁大家好早上大家一直在爭論的是程序上的問題為什麼停留在程序的問題道理非常的簡單在之前所討論過的公聽會也好或者是之前的大體討論也好大家都有一個最起碼的共識也就是說今天討論財法法不是單純一個法案的問題"},{"start":27.771,"end":43.35,"text":"他牽扯到了地制法、地方制度法、牽扯到了公債法、牽扯到地方稅法通則相關的地方財政諸多的問題都應該要拿出來討論這也是兩個禮拜之前陳育貞召委所下的一個結論"},{"start":44.531,"end":67.383,"text":"但是就在兩個禮拜之前的討論完之後呢他說還可以暢所欲言的情況底下卻接到朱立倫主席說要趕快將這個法案送出委員會的政治命令何以如此財政委員會已經接受國民黨黨主席的指揮這一點我們完全無法接受這是第一第二剛剛在談說公聽會兩次夠不夠我跟大家講絕對不夠"},{"start":71.425,"end":72.005,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":89.678,"end":106.828,"text":"財政收支劃分法這一部法令它修法的正當性而是呢它修法的這個程序跟內容當中要有更多的討論兩次的公聽會都是什麼都只有財政收支劃分法的單一法令的觀點"},{"start":108.448,"end":127.539,"text":"從來沒有從地方制度法的角度來做切入這在兩次的公聽會當中本席都有慎重的發言本席都要求財政委員會要持續開而本委員會的召委也同意要再開結果也沒有開就馬上進入討論等了大體討論說要繼續討論也沒有就馬上要進入逐條這顯然是操之過急我可以真的斷論的說負責任的講"},{"start":137.925,"end":144.169,"text":"國民黨的財政委員會是史上最爛的版本啦!國民黨的財政委員會是史上最違法亂七的版本!為什麼?因為國民黨的版本當中居然把中央的錢拿掉5747億後來隔沒多久又打了誤則說可以變3208億可是如果對照明年的預算規模"},{"start":161.62,"end":167.687,"text":"國民黨所謂的這個73筆變成64筆會變成6612億各位你們試想整個中央政府總預算也不過是3兆1325億而已這3兆1225億當中有其中一兆要拿給地方政府"},{"start":181.963,"end":189.226,"text":"其中1.8兆是屬於中央的法定支出我問你嘛!剩下的6千多億你要怎麼來?錢根本不夠!好!可以舉債嗎?可以!舉債多少?15%夠不夠?當然也不夠!所以呢根本是凱中央的錢請地方的客結果還要叫中央去舉債這何來的財政紀律啊?"},{"start":207.592,"end":212.035,"text":"完全沒有財政紀律的財政收支劃分法就是國民黨最大的版本啦!"}]}},{"id":"156465","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156465","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4083d02f243d98e3b904c3126a5d15bfb668414a6dac3d22ef16e64d1a1634640805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"15:11:18 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已經換人了齁 要再插嘴了齁 要講來登記喔 要怎麼講 重新開始啦"},{"start":10.754,"end":32.587,"text":"要將人來登記謝謝主席我講各位同仁不關朝野啦其實齁我們財劃法已經25年都沒有修了那尤其過去民進黨在選舉期間也多次做過承諾要改革然而在執政後選擇無視這項關乎地方財政和發展的重大法案其實這個沒有"},{"start":33.968,"end":42.195,"text":"朝野致婚那2012年當時民進黨的主席蘇貞昌也召集民進黨各縣市的首長呼籲將財劃法列為優先審查的法案強調中央與地方應該平等協商、擴大財源、縮小城鄉的差距像這些誠心呼籲如今卻消失殆盡"},{"start":61.59,"end":80.46,"text":"然而卓院長竟稱現行的財劃法就是最好的版本這種背離改革承諾的自打臉的行為徹底來踐踏了選民的信任,證明民進黨只顧權利跟利益"},{"start":83.241,"end":110.008,"text":"民進黨執政8年無視地方財政的困境只鞏固中央財政的控制導致資源分配失衡損害全國人民的利益卻始終不推動財化法的修訂完全背離了當初的這種承諾那其實國民黨堅持推動財化法的修法主張制度化"},{"start":111.168,"end":134.607,"text":"財劃法的規定依據需求合理分配來提升各地方政府的財政自主性解決區域發展的不平均的這些問題呼籲賴總統跟民進黨要拿出誠信正視人民的需求別再讓它變成雙重標準成為一個常態因為財劃法自1999年"},{"start":139.031,"end":167.924,"text":"到現在已經25年沒有修訂也影響地方發展重大這個發展的重大真的是影響很大重點是慈霞市由北高變成六都已經有10多年了那許多規範早已不符合實務那為歡欣而賴總統先前也多次強調財劃法一定要修正但是擔任行政院長到副總統後卻望光光"},{"start":169.184,"end":188.89,"text":"那民進黨一卡再卡就是不給修法那其實這次的主張是為了就是能夠讓地方政府爭取能夠更公平帶給我們各縣市的居民有更多生活上便利跟他的福利反倒是目前民進黨"},{"start":190.942,"end":207.199,"text":"做一套、說一套讓人看了很傻眼啦我希望說大家針對問題、探討問題怎麼去解決問題以上,謝謝好,謝謝林德福委員那我們等一下國管委員程序發言結束我們登記第二輪程序員"}]}},{"id":"156463","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156463","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408b129bae47909d24c4c3126a5d15bfb668414a6dac3d22ef156161e727e47ac5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"15:04:42 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這個算是會議詢問 我在程序發言中的會議詢問啊我是程序發言中的會議詢問啊 所以還是從3分鐘開始啊不會補你好不好"},{"start":42.052,"end":68.252,"text":"這早上我們在講就是說現在禮拜三各個縣市的這個財政局局長以上的人要來因為等一下你禮拜三可能就會進入開始進入主條討論的我們就要開始來問啊那各個縣市他拿到這麼多的這個統籌分配款之後要做什麼大家提出個計畫出來嘛你提不出一個計畫出來我就給你這個4000多億那到底各個縣市要做什麼"},{"start":68.752,"end":92.439,"text":"那我就要問啊,我跟早上一樣啊這新北市財政局局長說這個臺北拿了3%所謂的這一個金孫的條款他說沒有關係,侯友宜是老大哥這不是侯友宜說了算這是為了新北市的市民我有超過400萬的新北市市民嘛所以今天如果按照國民黨的版本說有3%金孫條款臺北市已經這麼有錢了"},{"start":97.34,"end":120.487,"text":"這還要再固定給他們3%那新北市應該要更多啊 對不對第二個按照這個財政紀律法這個賴思寶委員剛剛有在這邊剛剛早上也有委員提到這個按照這個財政的紀律法第5條中政府各級的機關、立法委員所提的法律案大幅增加政府的稅出或是減少稅率"},{"start":121.127,"end":136.107,"text":"要先具體明確指出彌補資金的來源在哪裡?我們現在看不到啊!現在看不到就是說按照這個國民黨版本的這個財劃法那你現在從中央挖走了這個4000多那請問一下少了這麼多錢請問一下"},{"start":139.39,"end":158.155,"text":"彌補資金的來源在哪裡?因為中共少了這麼多錢啊,國防也都受到影響啊。第7條來看,各級政府還有立法機關,定定或修正法律、法規或自治法規的時候,不得併定固定經費的額度或比例保障。"},{"start":158.835,"end":181.406,"text":"可是按照目前國民黨的版本有啊就是說這個統籌分配款一般性的分配款要以這個今年的要以今年的這個版本為例那如果明年修過之後明年的這個版本後年啦後年那個版本要以2023年的為例那這就是訂定了一定的比例啊這是違反財政紀律法嘛還要說你要從這個撥了這個4千多億然後給這個地方你說要補我時間啊"},{"start":187.489,"end":208.528,"text":"那這也違反這個財政紀律法的第7條啊因為你不能訂定固定的經費的比例啊那現在這個法條財政紀律法我們自己是財政委員會欸我們自己財政委員會然後呢你要修了這個財劃法結果都違背了財政紀律法的第5條跟第7條請問一下這不是互相矛盾嗎"},{"start":209.269,"end":228.202,"text":"那所以呢我是認為啊如果你真的要做這個財務法的這個修改那請按照我們財政紀律法我們第五條第七條都說得很清楚你如果說稅率減少了那問一下那你的財源的彌補在哪裡而且呢你也不能訂定一定比例的這一個"},{"start":229.002,"end":229.683,"text":"則違反財政紀律法。"}]}},{"id":"156369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408646ddf5c83a577ac4c3126a5d15bfb666cfce1a0c38a9af1f8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:19:18 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- 09:15:00","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra 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等一下因為蔡議員的問題他叫我先回答我先回答嘛齁蔡議員的發言很好齁就說上次我跟跟我們這個委員會報告齁我們上一次事實上這個會已經開過我們這個財化法的修正在羅明才召委的時代就已經開過公聽會我也開過啦齁然後也羅明才召委的時代也做過"},{"start":235.731,"end":260.981,"text":"已經做過詢答了那上次我們做廣泛討論的時候的確就是有提出來因為有其他相關事權的包括除了財政部以外包括內政部像今天次長就來了嘛內政部有關的次長可能要注意聽到上次有講有關內政部講到的就是這個地方制度法然後當然我們財務部還有那個稅法通則那還有一個"},{"start":266.062,"end":288.948,"text":"還有財政紀律法是財政部的有四個地方制度法我剛講了所以我們今天開會的時候你們應該要準備相關的資料因為等下我們進行討論的時候像陳如我們蔡議員所說的你們資料要來你們可能要發表意見我想市長都有做充足的準備不過蔡議員所說的沒錯今天沒有邀請到"},{"start":289.988,"end":301.792,"text":"委員會現在通知衛福部看有哪一位可以過來問看看可不可以那我們其他委員是不是還要詢問哪一位我們先做會議詢問會議詢問完再程序發言好嗎都可以齁還有哪一位要做會議詢問的嗎那現在我們請委員會通知衛福部看他們有沒有辦法派人出來主席我的意思是說我只是列舉其中一個"},{"start":317.256,"end":320.88,"text":"還有你繼續講,我們都會交到。還有呢?還有嗎?還是其他委員的?沒有,等一下,還沒有開始登記啊。你現在登記也沒用啊。我都還沒有說開始登記啊。好不好?"},{"start":333.094,"end":357.252,"text":"請等一下現在還在會議詢問的階段登記當然是按照沒有衝突但是請大家照秩序來嘛又不會不跟你講好嗎照秩序來現在會議可能還有還有其他委員因為要登記說登記的時候說起跑的時候可能每個人都要跑過來就讓大家再跑過來嘛一定會讓您發言的不要擔心我先問還有沒有其他要"},{"start":359.156,"end":370.541,"text":"還有其他人要做會議詢問的沒有一樣一樣來每個人都可以發言不用擔心除了蔡議員以外可能還有其他委員其他不是本委員會可能要做會議詢問陳培毅委員比如說你要不要做會議詢問"},{"start":373.217,"end":390.581,"text":"我的裁示就是我的風格齁請尊重主席主持的這個風格沒有我就是依照程序來做好嗎還沒有要做會你你問還有沒有人還有什麼委員會還有什麼不我可以講很好我的意思是說是不是要先讓呃那個等一下那個等一下下一步先讓他們說一下到底有哪些你現在詢問我這邊嘛齁因為我沒辦法知道我現在沒有辦法知道我剛剛現在先裁示齁大家應該沒意見我們趕快請我只是單舉齁這個健保的一個支出好OK這個這個這個建議很好齁915億"},{"start":402.663,"end":428.296,"text":"各位我們再請衛衡委會現在馬上通知衛福部可以派最少次長一上過來請聯絡什麼東西他如果不能來他會跟我們講我們會問詢問誰可以找一個人就可以來決定這麼大的事情馬上來馬上決定我覺得吳秉瑞所有最好請最少次長一上過來請通知至少次長一上過來"},{"start":431.526,"end":453.624,"text":"對對對,所以一樣一樣來,那換下一位委員會議,因為剛剛已經過了,不過沒關係各位委員會,等一下喔,各位委員,請等一下,現在,來請大家尊重,請尊重秩序"},{"start":457.04,"end":480.309,"text":"主席我們剛剛是說我一定會讓大家可以發言請尊重秩序我們先裁定他這件事情主席你剛剛並不是指限縮在肺腑部那你還要提哪個部位你可以告訴我們事實上有一些部位你真的要給我解釋我也是要再理解一下因為我也不知道那裡有哪些人那你詢完畢我先回答可以嗎你可以先回座我來回答謝謝"},{"start":482.73,"end":505.043,"text":"這個一樣樣來要再問的還有機會不用擔心各位我們有三天時間日夜的大家不用擔心來這個怎麼會程序有問題我主持會我的程序有什麼問題我就照此例子我不要不跟你發言請尊重秩序好嗎來請等一下等一下一位一位來我先採視蔡議員所說的他說這個"},{"start":506.724,"end":507.185,"text":"主席,這樣講就不對了。"}]}},{"id":"156366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4080ae6dbf75874b2aecdd5a1250ef41c286cfce1a0c38a9af135932578338c4f7e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:09:05 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了,結果到從2019到現在,一個公投案都沒有過。活生生的掐死民進黨長期的主張,那就是公投。長期的主張,人民直接民權的一個展現。那麼最後一點我要提到的,"},{"start":267.998,"end":272.68,"text":"我看到媒體有報導說中選的主委說這樣啊這個東西這樣選務的問題啦這是選務的問題啦是什麼政治的問題等等的不對李主委你看一看其他先行國家美國也好瑞士也好"},{"start":287.483,"end":299.211,"text":"五個公投案十個公投案都跟大選在一起了現在美國要投票了公投案所有的案子列在一張不管你五個案子十個案子二十個案子列在一張所以就不會有2018年的那種混亂的情況發生這個你們要去改進了"},{"start":306.363,"end":308.685,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":333.103,"end":347.088,"text":"有人在提到說這個受害者最大是丁守聰怎麼會呢?那時候是中選會裡面在那裡做手腳啊所以弄得一塌糊塗你把它放在一張嘛所有的案子放一張為什麼不可以"},{"start":348.13,"end":376,"text":"現在美國馬上要投票了美國除了選總統選選國會議員之外另外一張就是要他的公投案所有的公投案放在一張選票裡面這些的問題就沒有了我覺得用這樣的技術問題來卡住說公投不能把大選這是非常滑稽的這是欺騙台灣人民那麼最後再次強調我的提案就是"},{"start":377.116,"end":383.4,"text":"公投是人民展現直接民權,他公投的結果不能夠僅供參考啊,要實施啊,如果你做不到,那你就走人嘛,就這樣子而已。這裡當然,這裡面的首長不包括總統,總統是選的,總統是選的,這個跟總統沒有關係,是相關的首長,比如說以和洋率,"},{"start":400.771,"end":406.297,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員"}]}},{"id":"156368","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156368","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408e4203d3728d71ec7cdd5a1250ef41c286cfce1a0c38a9af15347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:15:02 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衛福部有沒有來 衛福部不是哪一個單位 層級的問題你今天叫部長來 他之前沒有被通知要討論這個東西 這個內容他都不了解今天部長來了坐在那邊 他上來馬上就可以回答說我要怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":102.879,"end":115.765,"text":"這不是這個不是哪一個政府官員的層級的問題啊而是你事先有沒有就開會的內容讓大家有預先可以準備可以準備資料可以準備對對於這些問題的那個內容的問題再來你剛剛說地方政府的意見已經開過公聽會了所以"},{"start":122.808,"end":141.702,"text":"只要我們這邊聽到決定就好,我覺得這個說法我很不以為然。你說我們,我以為我們新北市為例,我們新北市12個立委啊,然後你這裡面你們的版本裡面財政收支劃分法,給我們增加的機會我們如果不滿意,我們新北市政府的財政局如果不滿意,新北市政府不滿意,"},{"start":143.363,"end":161.445,"text":"難道你們這邊要多就欺負少我們立法委員只有十幾個啊你們多數就要把我們決定掉嗎你還是要請這些地方政府他的財政方面的負責人得到地方政府授權的人來這邊表達他的意見呢我要問問他啊"},{"start":162.106,"end":188.306,"text":"我問他多出來錢要怎麼花啊?那不夠的錢要怎麼補啊?這些都是會議很重要的東西而不是我們這幾個人坐在這邊就傳出了就決定要國家幾千億上兆元的這些財源的這些問題啦我覺得這樣子的會議我是覺得不能接受啦好 謝謝吳秉瑞委員齁我先回答你的會議詢問齁這個財政區法是規定政府如果也要大幅增加齁你需要提出相關的財源喔對對對沒錯來來來"}]}},{"id":"156399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408b8743ca342cb99ac4c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d942ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:48:00 - 10:49:50","影片長度":"00:01:50","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra 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謝謝沈博洋委員我們有邀請這個國防部也有過來各部位都有邀請接著請羅美玲委員發言謝謝羅美玲委員在嗎羅美玲委員"}]}},{"id":"156397","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156397","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4082854a1229783e3c84c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d90ec021b76d1d478f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:44:20 - 10:45:39","影片長度":"00:01:19","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T10:44:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T10:45:39+08:00","duration":79,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.29221875,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.55221875,"end":45.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.28596875,"end":42.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.289718750000006,"end":75.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.37784375000001,"end":79.36034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.312,"end":28.584,"text":"好,歷史真的是一面照妖鏡6月5號今天不是財化法第一次的審查其實已經開過好幾次會議地方縣市首長也來過很多次但是民進黨從過去無論是賴清德自己在當市長潘孟安也好、張花冠也好還有包括李永德過去都認為財化法是不公不義要想辦法把財化法修正修大、修好"},{"start":30.365,"end":38.118,"text":"但是今天要修財劃法請問財政部這麼多年民進黨執政第9年了版本在哪裡?"},{"start":39.608,"end":66.761,"text":"中央是集權要集權地方活得像乞丐一樣每一次來到巡政院會要看關愛的眼神這一次要給多少地方永遠沒辦法做地方社福也好財政也好做更好完全的規劃更何況很多政策是中央請客地方買單所以地方真的活得非常辛苦民進黨現在的做法"},{"start":68.362,"end":74.647,"text":"就是以拖代變不想修,直接是打臉過去的賴清德。"}]}},{"id":"156396","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156396","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4081406139c34aa74554c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d96df6a493928834075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:42:27 - 10:44:05","影片長度":"00:01:38","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T10:42:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T10:44:05+08:00","duration":98,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.14034375,"end":23.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.11159375,"end":75.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.64784375,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.96409375,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.15784375,"end":86.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.08909375,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.96596875,"end":94.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.59846875000001,"end":94.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.90221875,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.78784375000001,"end":98.19284375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.171,"end":23.182,"text":"我看到很多委員提出很多的問題請大家去查6月5號我們本委員會在羅明才召委召開公聽會之下我們所有的縣市政府的財主單位都到了我們財委會去報告"},{"start":24.202,"end":48.611,"text":"那麼當時所有的縣市財主單位包含高雄、包含台南、包含屏東全部都支持來修正財劃法所以我也來建議我們所有的委員你們可以到網路上有非常完整的會議記錄所有你們剛才所提的各縣市的財政財主單位"},{"start":50.592,"end":77.679,"text":"都有在委員會報告都希望修正財劃法而我們現在所提出來的包含新北市增加超過300億元高雄市超過300億元難道你們覺得增加是不對的嗎這樣子的一個說法真的很奇怪跟我在6月5號當天我所聽到的各縣市財主單位的話"},{"start":79.735,"end":93.487,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員 要繼續發言請登記第二輪李燕秀委員喔 欸 燕秀在嗎 李燕秀委員喔請那個李燕秀委員發言喔 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156395","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156395","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408363674af016060764c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d90a3ad233f9b498fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:41:23 - 10:42:09","影片長度":"00:00:46","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T10:41:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T10:42:09+08:00","duration":46,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.77159375,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.610343750000006,"end":46.11659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":14.84,"text":"其實這個徐耀昌的這個縣長的時候其實光是欺欠因為前任欺欠了6億連縣府員工的薪水都發不出來是跟誰求救就是跟中央求救嘛也就是說這些孩子分了財產之後不好好的理財結果"},{"start":16.181,"end":38.798,"text":"在外面負債還是要爸媽來付這不對啊這是兩邊在挖錢啊所以不能不把這樣的事情放在前面剛剛其實那位委員有特別講我們的地方政府他們本身的訴求其實不一樣有人是工業他是用廢在拼經濟有的是農業說我已經犧牲我自己發展工業的一個權利每個地方的事權也都不一樣"}]}},{"id":"156393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156393","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4080454ee3ae155649a4c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d92f3f07a615f4351a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:38:13 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T10:32:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T10:37:52+08:00","duration":321,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9209687500000001,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.94471875,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.535343750000003,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.855968750000002,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.00346875,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.247218750000002,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.38971875,"end":28.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.094093750000003,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.157218750000002,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.207843750000002,"end":29.528468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.675968750000003,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.979093750000004,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.626593750000005,"end":49.643468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.643468750000004,"end":49.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.76159375,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.96409375,"end":50.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.18346875,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.010343750000004,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.13409375,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.99034375000001,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.76221875,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.03596875000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.33471875000001,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.72159375000001,"end":90.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.98721875000001,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.32471875,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.52159375000001,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.04784375000001,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.50346875000001,"end":108.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.81971875,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.97409375000001,"end":121.95284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.96534375,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.30221875000001,"end":158.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.39846875,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.19159375,"end":133.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.33846875,"end":144.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.60721875000002,"end":146.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.62409375000001,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.63159375,"end":152.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.78346875,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.50409375,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.80721875,"end":162.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.95909375000002,"end":163.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.26284375,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.85346875000002,"end":164.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.69721875000002,"end":167.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.12284375000002,"end":170.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.27409375000002,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.34034375000002,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.47534375,"end":180.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.55971875,"end":180.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.66096875000002,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.96471875,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.02721875,"end":187.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.09034375000002,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.17034375,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.81159375000001,"end":231.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.51784375000003,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.45846875,"end":235.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.53409375,"end":238.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.67284375000003,"end":244.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.41471875000002,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.36721875,"end":251.43471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.92409375000003,"end":251.95784375000002},{"speaker":"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今天齁 在談這個台灣法那其實呢 我之前已經有提過了齁 這個是跟權 錢跟權要一起來談嘛那今天呢 這個地方制度法我看也沒有在談啊齁 而且呢 很重要的是說齁現在為什麼要讓台北市有這個3%好 先讓3% 先空3%給台北市這個不是什麼首都條款吶這個是金孫條款吶為什麼台北市還可以有3%"},{"start":216.38,"end":238.44,"text":"我看上次的這個新北市財政局局長來他說讓3%沒有關係因為他說什麼他說侯友宇說侯友宇市長說當老大哥就要老大哥的樣子所以他說可以讓利新北市為什麼可以讓利新北市為什麼可以讓利莫名其妙嘛所以如果禮拜三"},{"start":239.75,"end":253.672,"text":"新北市財政局局長來,我就要問他為什麼洪瑋瑜說新北市老大哥還可以讓利三趴?為什麼可以讓利?我們新北市人口最多啊!為什麼要向...好,謝謝李坤城委員的會議詢問"},{"start":255.074,"end":279.646,"text":"然後因為要會議詢問的委員很多第一輪剛登記完畢等一下我們就開始開放第二輪登記到11點然後會議詢問結束後程序發言然後還有會議詢問的第二輪好嗎然後接著我們請如果要登記的剛才我看沈博洋委員要上來登記第二輪就可以上來登記好嗎接著請郭益勳委員謝謝主席你看我們是郭益勳"},{"start":281.594,"end":294.032,"text":"國疫情委員有在嗎?國委員在嗎?要發言可以登記第二輪,我們還有第二輪等委員會有程序發言可以,來請發言喔國疫情委員喔"},{"start":297.782,"end":317.007,"text":"你少講一點就會比較前面你不要我回答第二輪可以開始登記登記到11點第二輪可以來登記了歡迎大家來登記第二輪請郭一行委員發言李坤貞委員不要侵犯到郭委員的權利請尊重後面的委員好嗎請每個委員都有發言機會大家輪流來來請郭委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156406","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4089040037518906f224c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d994c2a44ecd674d185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:55:53 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謝謝主席喔 因為剛剛我只有26秒 但我希望能夠讓我講完主席是非常認真的這個財委會的召委喔但是本席要特別剛剛去了解了一下其實過去我們在娛樂稅、囤房稅、地方稅法通則都有邀請地方政府出席那這一次沒錯 財劃法我們在首次審查跟公聽會的時候地方政府也有來"},{"start":25.029,"end":42.118,"text":"但是在這兩次的會議當中其實地方政府都沒有針對水平分配達成共識每一個都是講說錢拿到了我們再來考慮怎麼花但是不能有這樣的想法因為地方政府必須要先想好當錢來了之後的這個錢隨事權做轉移的時候那麼到底事權有沒有統一的做法跟想法"},{"start":53.443,"end":75.999,"text":"剛剛有委員說地方政府像乞丐一樣跟中央要錢我相信中央地方應該都是要合作的錢給了地方,地方要想好再來本席因為是不分區所以我考慮到的是不論南北或者是人口稀少的地方每一個都要有一定的分配標準"},{"start":76.86,"end":102.669,"text":"如果分配標準沒有談出來的時候我們坐在這裡討論其實是給地方更大的壓力跟彼此之間的更大的不公平上一回在開會的時候"},{"start":107.615,"end":134.017,"text":"謝謝上一次在開會的時候我們有請所有地方政府都有過來然後我們也再次詢問他們有沒有意見一直給他們時間後來有四個地方政府上來講發言其他的也有一位用書面的報告其他現在我都不願意再繼續沒有再願意表示意見我沒有給時間然後就林主任委員的意見很好謝謝林委員那也請你落實不要只是用說我沒有看到你有相關提案請你做出相關提案比較有幫助吧"},{"start":135.919,"end":136.239,"text":"張智倫委員"},{"start":153.054,"end":176.766,"text":"啊你問我,我要回答,我看到你沒有提案啊!你要提案啊!張志仁委員他沒有提案啊!怎麼嘴巴一直說都不提案?張志仁委員張志仁委員喔,請發言喔請張志仁委員發言好,非常感謝主席啊"}]}},{"id":"156403","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156403","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca40878d61fc66b37c8714c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d9e459cee5de9a21f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T10:50:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T10:52:01+08:00","duration":105,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.54971875,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.93971875,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.344093750000003,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.85346875,"end":56.899718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.93346875,"end":105.17909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.709,"end":20.624,"text":"財化法是在國民黨執政多數的時候立的法那時過境遷需要修法也該修法但是我們都是主張說要有共識為什麼這麼說因為過了這麼久為什麼雷大不雨"},{"start":21.405,"end":50.102,"text":"就是因為真的地方的財主單位不是傻瓜他們都很會算真的有利可圖嗎我們明明看到這個財劃法是中央地方要通力合作那這8年呢長短期的負債是逐年的下降我們看到地方的補助款也是逐年的上升我舉一個最簡單的例子我們原住民遍佈的文件站從9年前的不到1億現在是一年13億"},{"start":51.343,"end":77.892,"text":"我再舉一個例子像就業服務法22年前就有提一個修法原住民人口達2萬人以上應該要設公立的原住民就業機構但是縣市政府都不設我最後是請勞動部來補助所以我在這個地方要特別講現在對我來講這些都是假議題我講一個真議題就是我從上一個屆起我就有提財化法修第三條"},{"start":78.812,"end":104.588,"text":"那個就是2010年我們六都合併之後曾經一度失去公法人2014恢復公法人竟然沒有給這些直轄市的園民區財政獨立我一直講你看冤枉了多少年財化法這一題我覺得才是真議題吳委員你這個意見很好我剛剛第三條我們已經有注意到上次也提過了吼那會"}]}},{"id":"156388","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156388","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408e998900fee1812a84c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d9277aaf2a4e3413f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:27:05 - 10:29:50","影片長度":"00:02:45","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra 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如果那麼容易的話不會經過5次的都沒辦法通過啦所以這件事情知識體大對地方政府、對中央都很大的影響我認為一定要好好充分討論那也一定要邀請地方政府的代表市長願意來很好副市長願意來也很好或者他授權財政局來都可以但是一定要來因為每個立委針對每一個條文都會有充分的意見要去詢問他這個一定要做到所以我希望等到所有的這些首長們來了以後再來進行所以我希望"},{"start":59.798,"end":84.586,"text":"今天要不就等到他們來,要不就等到禮拜三再來處理,我希望待會主席做個才事。第二個是,我還是要強調了,高雄今天早上出發,從高雄來到台北的時候,高雄是局景,這個超過100,空氣的局景,而台北是綠的,這個是冬天的常態。高雄的局景是因為高雄過去來它的重工業城市,它的鋼鐵、它的石化、它的台電,"},{"start":86.186,"end":110.382,"text":"台電電力發往中往北送,高雄只擁有60%的電力,40%的電力是往北送天然氣跟燃煤都在做,所以這些都是高雄不斷的為台灣經濟所付出的而在這些財政的劃分的比例上面的時候,過去從來沒有重視過這件事情所以我的提案,我希望能夠慎重重視這問題但是我看到了國民黨提案在16條之一,因為首都就加了3%"},{"start":111.423,"end":129.034,"text":"對於一個首都直接加3% 佔盡了所有的優勢而高雄作為共眾工業城市 污染對台灣的經濟富裕這麼多 完全沒有所以我認為這件事情 我要聽高雄市政府的想法 我也要聽所有各部位的想法同時間我希望在審查的時候 各委員都能夠審酌來討論我認為 這個才是一個公平正義的一個狀態所以我希望 第一個"},{"start":135.778,"end":164.243,"text":"等到他們來,再來審。禮拜三再來做這個進行程序。第二個,我希望能夠慎重的聽到我們的意見。慎重聽到我們的意見。不要讓重工業的城市...好了,可以了啦,已經多了三分鐘了。蔡委員都在抗議啦。好,這個...賴委員喔,賴慧龍委員。你看,多給他一分鐘不行,你看。其他委員會有意見喔。"}]}},{"id":"156386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156386","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4084beb0c3424f0aea64c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d980161a9ac653e9315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:23:01 - 10:26:52","影片長度":"00:03:51","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra 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謝謝張委員張委員說的話已經說過無數次了已經講過很多次了那各個縣市政府來所以我們已經照大家的意見邀請地方的縣市政府派員了好 接著我們請王定宇委員 謝謝如果想再講等一下我們會開放第二輪好嗎王定宇委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156384","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156384","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca40898e0e4d7655469ad4c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d953aeae6a5651927f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:18:26 - 10:20:08","影片長度":"00:01:42","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T10:18:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T10:20:08+08:00","duration":102,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.07034375,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.66721875,"end":50.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.48284375,"end":52.157843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.157843750000005,"end":52.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.19159375,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.22534375,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.377218750000004,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.96784375,"end":76.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.26784375000001,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.95096875,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.90409375,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.70971875000001,"end":90.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.61596875000001,"end":91.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.57659375,"end":101.68596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":16.619,"text":"推動修法那我有幾個理由第一個理由是我想我們剛剛已經上一次也非常多人討論我也講過了目前我們看到光國民黨自己立委的版本就是中央要釋出多少財源就南圓北側"},{"start":18.22,"end":41.62,"text":"曾政前委員的版本是中央應該釋出財源7633億陳玉珍委員我們今天的主席是328億你們兩個人之間的差距就是7200億那同一個縣市剛剛我們有講地方政府沒有代表在這光雲林我們出生雲林的張家俊委員的版本是6612億"},{"start":44.102,"end":47.955,"text":"那選出的丁學忠的委員的版本是3035億,差距兩..."},{"start":51.547,"end":78.149,"text":"好,接下來我來回答范委員的問題,如果要繼續講請那個,如果要繼續講就請登記下一個梯子好,我來回答范委員的提問,你說的我們開會就是不能會而不意、意而不覺所以我們也尊重大家意見,請各個地方縣市政府,大家知道國土計劃法也沒有邀請各個縣市政府過來發言,但是我們還是邀請啦好,接著請張雅琳委員,謝謝張委員"},{"start":83.364,"end":91.794,"text":"時間已經到,尊重下一位,等一下還有第二輪,可以繼續登記,可以繼續登記喔,等一下,等一下我們還會繼續登記喔尊重後面的委員張雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"156389","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156389","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca40880ef07242ec06f854c3126a5d15bfb66f0f51ee05cf641d9b92ba5236964c1d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:30:44 - 10:31:57","影片長度":"00:01:13","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T10:30:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T10:31:57+08:00","duration":73,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":28.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.617218750000003,"end":39.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.501593750000005,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.33909375,"end":54.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.212218750000005,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.55971875,"end":73.60596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.685,"end":12.479,"text":"財劃法這麼的重要我希望能夠有比較完整完善的一個討論那因為財劃法已經25年未修了那希望未來的這個修法可以符合大家的期待"},{"start":13.834,"end":38.75,"text":"因為財政是肅政之母那缺乏健全的財政作為後盾的話政府的一切施政將無法順利的展開那我有幾項建議第一項就是希望在穩健的財政的基礎條件之上我們的統籌分配稅額規模可以擴大"},{"start":39.653,"end":53.718,"text":"第二、對於直轄市還有縣市的標準應該是要一致第三、要考量區域的平衡適度地針對各縣市的需求調節營需第四"},{"start":55.319,"end":70.855,"text":"希望這個同時來檢視地方的政府財政努力的程度給予合理的這個補助那我希望說我們針對這個部分應該是有比較完善的這個討論能夠讓所有的這個立委能夠表達我們的意見"}]}},{"id":"16223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16223","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e20f6709a214df6ef6425655b8120616f083084566cc2bdb4e492890b4fdab1805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-04","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-04T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T22:33:00+08:00","duration":50580,"影片長度":"14:03:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 - 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謝謝 現在我們介紹在場的委員和官員齁我們蔡易瑜委員齁 謝謝黃珊珊委員顏寬仁委員羅明才委員 謝謝我們在場的官員齁財政部莊瑞雲部長財務部法制處的姚瑩處長國庫署的陳柏成署長負稅署的宋秀玲署長"},{"start":1977.199,"end":2003.3,"text":"行政組織總署陳淑芝組織總署的公務預算處的徐永毅處長內政部的董建宏次長內政部民政司的劉立芳專委內政部國土管理署的朱偉庭檢任司長"},{"start":2006.252,"end":2031.587,"text":"國發會的國家發展委員會的高仙貴政務副主委國發會的經濟發展處郭永騰專委原住民委員會的杜章梅莊政務副主任委員環境部的施文貞次長環境部大氣環境司的謝仁碩科長"},{"start":2033.55,"end":2056.902,"text":"融業部的黃昭清政事長、融業部會計處的蘇文樹處長、農民輔導師的王東良檢任基政、資源永續利用師的吳兆陽檢任基政、農村發展及水土保持署的黃國峰檢任政工程師、"},{"start":2059.071,"end":2081.66,"text":"法務部的林峰文參事還有我們王洪威委員今天議程是安排繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的財政收支劃分法修正草案等22案請議事您宣讀修正動議議案預計宣讀時間一分鐘宣讀完我們就開始進行協商"},{"start":2090.977,"end":2118.649,"text":"修正動議、委員黃珊珊、陳益生、顏寬仁等3人提案第8條刪除貨物稅及礦區稅第二項將但以不超過該直轄市及縣市自籌財源之10%為限期超過部分而中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市刪除"},{"start":2121.269,"end":2122.27,"text":"區域經照現行法條文先轉閉"},{"start":2155.069,"end":2162.033,"text":"蔡、等一下蔡委員不能做那個議員會那就這一位就好了齁一位等一下就繼續一位啦齁就一位啦齁三分鐘"},{"start":2171.445,"end":2187.04,"text":"好謝謝召委那召委我們延續上個禮拜針對這個財化法那事實上我們在上個禮拜很多委員的發言都可以知道這一部財化法的一個修法他除了"},{"start":2187.7,"end":2217.006,"text":"中央跟地方的垂直分配之外他還涉及到了垂直分配的事權的部分那事權的部分事實上我們事實上也想要聽財政部跟內政部他們就到底有哪些事權是屬於過去在經省之後原本是屬於地方的業務那由中央吸收那未來如果這部財劃法應該要把部分事權也要下放"},{"start":2217.586,"end":2234.117,"text":"那到底有哪些業務是應該是要下放到各地方政府的?那就我們現在的了解你說包括說這個健保的這個補助過去是地方那在經審之後由中央來吸收"},{"start":2234.918,"end":2252.339,"text":"這個金額就高達了915億那如果是健保的這樣的一個關係的話事實上我們今天是傳喚我們今天請來的單位沒有衛福部我們事實上今天衛福部沒有來所以我們也沒有辦法知道"},{"start":2253.48,"end":2265.956,"text":"今天就少了這些部會所以我在想說我們在討論財劃法首先還是要先確認到底有哪些事權那這些事權要回到地方的時候相關的部會也應該都要在"},{"start":2267.238,"end":2280.649,"text":"在現場要隨時我們委員需要詢問然後需要徵詢都需要相關的部會在所以我想我們再進入等一下如果真的主席要走主條討論但是有很多部會他沒辦法針對事權的部分去討論這個是蠻重要的一個程序上的點"},{"start":2286.674,"end":2313.2,"text":"因為我們財劃法現在要討論了,這個就關係到了整個未來那我們也希望中央政府要講清楚到底你們吸收了多少原本是屬於地方應該要去執行的一些業務的部分你們現在都盤整起來,那這些業務到底涉及到了哪些部會比方說那天有講到老農,今天的地方也有吸收所以我們上禮拜有要求農業部要到,那今天看起來農業部是有到"},{"start":2314.48,"end":2335.536,"text":"那我剛剛講這個健保的這個支出的部分衛福部就沒有到了所以這些部會我們是不是要先確認好到底要有哪些部會應該要一起來開會那我們這個進入主條我們才會有實質上有推進否則這樣的話就會變成說在這個程序上就會有卡住"},{"start":2336.657,"end":2356.583,"text":"都會有卡住的地方,等一下主條就變得很難進行。所以我的意見是以上是這樣。我們還是希望主席的部分,針對我剛剛說的有相關部會要討論事權的部分,這部分是不是要有主席做一個裁示,我們才進出主條。"},{"start":2366.98,"end":2383.045,"text":"我先回答蔡議員的,再請你們上來喔,請坐喔等一下等一下,還沒有到那個程序嘛,還沒有到這個程序我先回答,我會讓你們暢所欲言,你們一定都可以講,請坐你要站這邊也可以來,好我先回答蔡議員,我會讓大家發言"},{"start":2385.966,"end":2403.754,"text":"會 等一下因為蔡議員的問題他叫我先回答我先回答嘛齁蔡議員的發言很好齁就說上次跟我們這個委員會報告齁我們上一次事實上這個會已經開過我們這個財化法的修正在羅明才召委的時代就已經開過公聽會我也開過啦齁"},{"start":2405.615,"end":2424.889,"text":"然後羅廷開昭的時代也做過已經做過詢答了那上次我們做廣泛討論的時候的確就是有提出來因為有其他相關事權的包括除了財政部以外包括內政部像今天次長就來了嘛內政部有關的"},{"start":2425.769,"end":2435.86,"text":"次長可能要注意聽到,上次有講有關內政部講到的地方制度法當然我們財政部還有稅法通則還有財政紀律法是財政部的有四個"},{"start":2444.549,"end":2461.887,"text":"還有地方支付款我剛講了齁所以我們今天開會的時候你們應該要準備相關的資料因為等下我們進行討論的時候像陳如我們蔡議員所說的你們資料要來你們可能要發表意見我想市長都有做充足的準備不過蔡議員所說的沒錯齁這個今天沒有邀請到"},{"start":2462.768,"end":2469.789,"text":"委員會現在通知衛福部看有哪一位可以過來問看看可不可以那我們其他委員是不是還要詢問哪一位我們先做會議詢問會議詢問完再程序發言好嗎都可以齁還有哪一位要做會議詢問的嗎那現在我們請委員會通知衛福部看他們有沒有辦法派人出來主席我的意思是說我只是列舉其中一個還有你繼續講"},{"start":2491.354,"end":2507.153,"text":"有,我們都會交到還有呢?還有嗎?還是其他委員的?沒有,等一下,等一下還沒有到那個...還沒有開始登記啊你現在登記也沒用啊我都還沒有說開始登記啊好不好請等一下,現在還..."},{"start":2508.154,"end":2530.394,"text":"現在還在會議詢問的階段登記當然是按照沒有衝突但是請大家照資訊來嘛又不會不跟你講好嗎照資訊來現在會議可能還有還有其他委員因為要登記說登記的時候說起跑的時候可能每個人都要跑過來就讓大家再跑過來嘛一定會讓您發言的不要擔心我先問還有沒有其他要"},{"start":2532.296,"end":2543.683,"text":"還有其他人要做會議詢問的沒有一樣一樣來每個人都可以發言不用擔心除了蔡議員以外可能還有其他委員其他不是本委員會可能要做會議詢問陳培毅委員比如說你要不要做會議詢問"},{"start":2546.359,"end":2563.669,"text":"我的裁示就是我的風格齁請尊重主席主持的這個風格沒有我就是依照程序來做好嗎還沒有人要做會你你問還有沒有人還有什麼委員會還有什麼不我可以講什麼我的意思是說是不是要先讓呃那個等一下那個等一下下一步你現在是你再詢問我這邊嘛齁因為我沒辦法知道我現在沒有辦法知道我剛剛現在先裁示齁大家應該沒意見我們趕快請我只是單舉齁這個健保的一個支出好OK這個這個這個建議很好齁915億"},{"start":2575.795,"end":2595.371,"text":"各位我們再請衛衡委會現在馬上通知衛福部可以派最少次長一上過來請聯絡什麼東西他如果不能來他會跟我們講我們會問詢問隨便找一個人就可以來決定這麼大的事情馬上來馬上決定我覺得吳秉銳說得最好請最少次長一上過來請通知至少次長一上過來"},{"start":2603.988,"end":2626.766,"text":"啊對對對,所以一樣一樣來,那換下一位委員會選因為已經,剛剛已經過了,剛剛時間已經過,不過沒關係各位委員會,等一下喔,各位委員,請等一下,請等一下現在,來請大家尊重,請尊重秩序"},{"start":2630.18,"end":2653.426,"text":"主席我們剛剛是說我一定會讓大家可以發言請尊重秩序我們先裁定他這件事情這個蔡宜說的並不是只限縮在衛福部那你還要提哪個部位你可以告訴我們事實上有一些部位你這要給大家我也稍微再理解一下因為我也不知道要問哪些事情那你詢完畢我先回答可以嗎你可以先回座我來回答謝謝"},{"start":2655.866,"end":2677.215,"text":"這個一樣樣來要再問的還有機會不用擔心各位我們有三天時間日夜的大家不用擔心來這個怎麼會程序有問題我主持會我的程序有什麼問題我就照此例子我不要不跟你發言請尊重秩序好嗎來請等一下等一下一位一位來我先採視蔡議員所說的"},{"start":2678.135,"end":2697.445,"text":"他說這個衛福部要過來我們要邀請衛福部我已經請我們委會要邀請衛福部然後吳秉瑞委員所說的的確如果隨便一個來時在衛街太低所以一定要請市長過來主席你這樣講就不對了不要用這個衛街的問題只問我這個衛街的問題好了請歐亞人來收拾馬上這個處理就有問題了"},{"start":2705.889,"end":2706.749,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":2732.839,"end":2750.755,"text":"第二輪再換,還有別人沒問題,林主委都已經起手了,好嗎?對,可以再問,你下來換別人可以嗎?一分鐘看還有誰要問,看有哪個問題,好,你可以問了,我們本委會請等一下好嗎?主委委員陳旭花言不能只有一分鐘啊"},{"start":2756.056,"end":2764.904,"text":"每個人尊重,大家可以一直講,每個人可以講,三如四同,請不要用麥克風等他講,請林處議員你也可以做會議詢問嘛,你會議詢問我們再做程序嘛,一樣一樣的"},{"start":2776.135,"end":2778.897,"text":"本委員會要先,怎麼會是這樣子咧?楚逸,你不是本委員會的啊?"},{"start":2796.368,"end":2816.698,"text":"主席已經給他發言位置了林群委員請發言一貞主席你怎麼可以隨時就是林群委員已經舉手了請發言他剛剛他先表示要會議詢問了主席你的材質很奇怪陳培宇他叫陳培宇陳培宇委員先的你怎麼可以讓林群委員先來那培宇先來"},{"start":2824.813,"end":2833.978,"text":"對不起,誰有發言地位是我的居然。你先講,你要讓他先講,請等一下。你先講一分鐘而已,講一講。好,那下一個是陳培恩,好。好,那這樣子,要做會議詢問請到前面來登記嘛,好嗎?每一位都過來,來。"},{"start":2850.128,"end":2869.142,"text":"本委會不但可以做會議詢問,還可以再做程序發言,好嗎?他們是剛剛做菜的牌子啦,你怎麼這樣換來換去啦?會議詢問本委會可以做,可以,所以說多來,沒關係,誰翻也可以,歡迎多多發言喔!"},{"start":2872.206,"end":2888.454,"text":"多多花言就不可以限制一分鐘啊!怎麼可以限制一分鐘啊!你那個一分鐘從上來到下去上來開始講才算啊!不用擔心繼續講繼續講!多講一點喔!大家暢所欲言多講一點!我們是尊重其他委員!可以講五分鐘啊!"},{"start":2898.238,"end":2923.734,"text":"現在議事規則就是一分鐘啦!遵守議事規則啦!這個一分鐘就是從站準到現在議事規則還要公佈喔!自己看議事守則!議事規則還要公佈嗎?來開會又不懂議事規則那你當然啊!你要公佈啊!哪有這個樣子的!議事規則哪裡需要公佈的?在守則裡頭!你又一直講陳怡貞公佈!請大家去問主席!主席給你發言!因為你才能發言!大家都說過陳怡貞不能發言的!請大家過來簽名!"},{"start":2927.956,"end":2940.665,"text":"我們的支持啊、程序怎麼樣是、會議怎麼進行是我決定好嗎?請大家多多來發言,多多來,可以嗎?我們有我們開會的權利,不是你能夠決定,程序發言要先拿主席,主席決定誰可以發言好嗎?這不是你可以決定的,這是我們的權利,不是你可以決定的,OK?"},{"start":2952.253,"end":2978.265,"text":"尊重發言的委員好嗎?好,那我延續剛剛蔡議員的發言喔蔡議員講的是說等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":2980.95,"end":2990.823,"text":"召登記本委員會跟外委員會就是召登記的一個順序所以本委員會沒有優先這個是陳奕辰的一個風格"},{"start":2996.852,"end":3020.315,"text":"好啦,那就是最後20秒我只想問的就是過去我們在財委會審查跟地方相關的時候比如說吞房稅啊房屋稅啊的時候地方政府都會列席因為這攸關到地方政府的權益那麼在水平分配的部分現在地方政府到底達成共識了沒有如果沒有達成共識主席是不是應該邀請地方政府一起列席這非常重要"},{"start":3021.676,"end":3049.001,"text":"也攸關到地方政府的權益不能我們中央到時候講了因為上一個禮拜上上禮拜你在質詢的時候我曾經問過財政部的政次碼他說地方還沒有達成共識那如果沒有達成共識我要求其實今天地方政府也應該要派他們的相關部會首長來做列席免得我們今天逐條審查完之後地方不認帳或不買單或者是有疑義的時候那這樣子其實在修法就會不夠矜持"},{"start":3050.903,"end":3075.288,"text":"謝謝林處理委員請回座這個我來回答林處理委員問題這個地方政府的部分要發言請登記來那個根據地方政府我們已經開過好多次會地方都有派各個財政處處長財政局局長都有派很多人過來已經開了很多次了那大家不要這個妄自菲薄我們是中央民意代表有各個選區選出來的民意代表不管是哪個縣市都有民意代表"},{"start":3076.508,"end":3098.221,"text":"各個縣市的聲音在中央都要反映出來就是靠各位民意代表就靠我們地方的民意代表而且我們還有部分區的人代表全國的聲音所以不是什麼事情我們都要聽地方政府的但是他們如果沒有辦法達成共識那當然是由我們全國最高民意立法院來決定所以這個問題大概是這樣子下一位是哪一位呢"},{"start":3101.509,"end":3122.496,"text":"會議詢問是哪一位呢?吳秉瑞委員,請發言。主席,還是要跟你再建議一下,一分鐘的會議詢問,這個時間太短了,大家沒有辦法充分的去討論。好,如果大家減少干擾時間,他就會,所謂立法委員應該要有辦法在一分鐘內把自己要表達出來,不是沒有第二天,可以登記第二天嗎?"},{"start":3123.516,"end":3129.797,"text":"我為了尊重同樣是主席同樣是財政委員會上一次3分鐘你為什麼改成1分鐘啊你有沒有經過會統的同意就執行裁決變成1分鐘我為了尊重今天來的委員這麼多每個人都可以唱索一言如果你想要講我們還可以讓你登記第二輪唱索一言一分鐘怎麼唱索一言一分鐘怎麼唱索一言"},{"start":3149.642,"end":3163.749,"text":"我第一個每個委員都應該訓練自己可以在很簡短的時間內表達完自己的意識不是啊陳怡君你不可以這樣講啊你現在講錯已經超過一分鐘了你要人家超所欲言然後你自己講要超過一分鐘第二你如果要繼續發言你登記第二輪讓每個人都有機會講來五位委員請發言謝謝"},{"start":3178.245,"end":3182.067,"text":"本委員會的了不起長久在這邊的賴氏寶委員他最得意的財政紀律法"},{"start":3193.73,"end":3209.755,"text":"這2019年通過的,到現在也還未滿,就這5年而已啦。那這是還是很新,那當年通過的時候,他非常的得意啊,說這個因為在我的要求之下,所以我們這個財政紀律,以後會有嚴格要求。財政紀律法,"},{"start":3211.089,"end":3234.434,"text":"如果我們要尊重它的話,它是一個法律,立法委員要守法嘛。它的第五條就明明規定,中央政府各級機關立法委員所提的法律案,大幅增加政府稅出或減少稅入,因具體指名彌補資金是來源。那我想喔,這個今天我們要討論問題的時候,這個也是一個前提啊。"},{"start":3235.094,"end":3260.221,"text":"那你現在要告合大家的提案都是中央的這個錢要大幅的減少然後要給地方那問題是那中央的財源減少的部分有沒有依照這一條的規定那如果沒有依照這一條的規定我們現在在這邊討論的東西就不符合財政紀律法嘛那這樣子我覺得對我們賴世保委員也是不好意思再來你剛剛講的喔我剛剛你主席你一開始用誤會我的意思"},{"start":3261.081,"end":3278.448,"text":"你今天說 衛福部有沒有來 衛福部不是哪一個單位承起的問題你今天叫部長來 他之前沒有被通知要討論這個東西 這個內容他都不了解今天部長來了坐在那邊 他上來馬上就可以回答說我要怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":3280.047,"end":3292.94,"text":"這不是這個不是哪一個政府官員的層級的問題啊而是你事先有沒有就開會的內容讓大家有預先可以準備可以準備資料可以準備對於這些問題的那個內容的問題再來你剛剛說地方政府的意見已經開過公聽會了所以"},{"start":3299.967,"end":3318.868,"text":"只要我們這邊聽到決定就好,我覺得這個說法我很不以為然啦。你說我們,我以我們新北市為例,我們新北市12個立委啊,那你這裡面你們的版本裡面財政收支劃分法,給我們增加的機會我們如果不滿意,我們新北市政府的財政局如果不滿意,新北市政府不滿意,"},{"start":3320.53,"end":3338.612,"text":"難道你們這邊要多就欺負少我們立法委員只有十幾個啊你們多數就要把我們決定掉嗎你還是要請這些地方政府他的財政方面的負責人得到地方政府授權的人來這邊表達他的意見呢我要問問他啊"},{"start":3339.273,"end":3353.727,"text":"我問他多出來錢要怎麼花啊那不夠的錢要怎麼補啊這些都是會議很重要的東西而不是我們這幾個人坐在這邊就傳出了就決定要國家幾千億上兆元的這些財源的這些問題啦我覺得這樣子的會議我是覺得不能接受啦"},{"start":3357.93,"end":3373.158,"text":"謝謝吳秉瑞委員我先回答你的會議詢問這個財政區法是規定政府如果也要大幅增加必須要提出相關的財源對對對沒錯來來來他說的是政府我們現在沒有涉及整個政府是包括中央跟地方可是也沒有講清楚這個說出來的是沒有給你這個錢怎麼補回來啊這個錢怎麼補回來啊"},{"start":3381.022,"end":3382.203,"text":"你坐一下,等下會輪到你回答,好嗎?"},{"start":3399.574,"end":3400.175,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3422.837,"end":3447.036,"text":"代委員你當召委員你也可以繼續排我只是打算繼續排問題就是說你把遊戲規則就亂掉了為什麼要一分鐘呢財政紀律法它說政府是指中央跟地方我們今天沒有大幅減少政府的收穫支出我們只是做是分配的問題你沒有減少中央政府的收入不能問財政部總理嗎"},{"start":3450.379,"end":3473.581,"text":"不然我們的分配就要造成紀律的問題,不是不是,你在稅源上面直接就把它分配掉,這樣不是遣走中央政府的稅率嗎?政府是一體的,中央跟地方都叫做政府,只把中央的錢撥給地方,不表示大幅延長。那這樣子為什麼要關鍵中央跟地方的稅率增長必須要?那這樣關鍵政府就好啦,為什麼要分別中央跟地方?"},{"start":3476.323,"end":3498.442,"text":"第二個問題,你剛剛說衛福部的問題我覺得很好,所以我們衛福部我們已經邀請次長,你說他沒有辦法馬上回答,那如果這個來的我們請要派比較懂的,如果衛福部的官員對自己的業務這麼不賢熟的話,那是他不適格,大家不要妄自否認。今天討論的是國家的稅收的分配,財政部比較了解,你說衛福部的"},{"start":3499.543,"end":3509.497,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員"},{"start":3515.165,"end":3518.586,"text":"你這是胡扯啦,我今天自己定一個問題我明天自己定一個問題叫你馬上來你是立法委員,你對中華民國的法律又很賢守"},{"start":3544.557,"end":3545.718,"text":"因爲你不選擇我來出席,這個怎麼這樣?這樣講沒有什麼道理!"},{"start":3574.497,"end":3594.936,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷"},{"start":3598.882,"end":3621.228,"text":"我比駱石堅大了!我比駱石堅大了!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個吳科宣!下一個"},{"start":3629.014,"end":3629.795,"text":"主席、主席、主席"},{"start":3730.578,"end":3745.168,"text":"這樣可以講嗎?這樣有聲音嗎?有聲音嗎?主席,你現在會詢問嗎?主席,鄭宇甄沒有啦,你要休到什麼時候,你要跟他說嗎?沒有啦,你要休到什麼時候?鄭宇甄,我不是很贏耶"},{"start":3758.837,"end":3783.645,"text":"休息休息休息休息到什麼時候休息到當平靜、冷靜下午下午晚上你們等到晚上,等到晚上陳一貞,等到晚上陳一貞陳一貞你是要開沒啦"},{"start":3788.749,"end":3800.914,"text":"啊你休息一直在給人家收麥克風你在收什麼啦 陳毓正休息了啦你不要在那邊吵啦 你要休息就休息啦 動作那麼多你自己營營 你動作我都營營喔"},{"start":3814.574,"end":3822.599,"text":"這個樣子的把麥克風抽回去因為你們一直乾腦發不乾腦發每個人都可以每個人都有機會好好講講到"},{"start":3825.431,"end":3842.346,"text":"主席,你怎麼變成法警、變成議事人員,說我的麥克風什麼意思啊?你什麼意思啊?你怎麼可以這樣子?你到底是法警還是議事人員啊?還是主席啊?你怎麼可以隨便拿我的麥克風啊?麥克風是我的發言權欸,你怎麼可以剝奪我的發言權?"},{"start":3846.273,"end":3855.359,"text":"這個不是法定!我沒有給你發言地位你不能發言!你懂嗎?我沒有給你發言地位你不能發言!主席是決定發言地位!沒有發言地位你就該拿!為什麼?為什麼?"},{"start":3866.045,"end":3883.595,"text":"為什麼你歧視我?你就歧視我?你封鎖我嗎?為什麼拿我的麥克風?他給我麥克風,他手上戴會員的麥克風,你為什麼不拿他的?你搶他的啊,你搶他的啊,為什麼搶我的?你為什麼搶我的麥克風?為什麼?麥克風交出來,一十人交出來"},{"start":3885.211,"end":3907.029,"text":"交出來!欸!章偉沒有那麼大連麥克風都在管!嘿!你要不要把我的茶杯收走?我的茶杯你要不要收走?我的茶杯還有我的椅子你要不要收走?我的椅子我沒有給你發言地位你不能發言地位他可是我醫師的工具啊!茶杯跟椅子都是我醫師的工具為什麼你收走我麥克風?你告訴我!我...你不要影響醫師進行啦你那影響醫師進行是你啦!不是我啦!"},{"start":3918.557,"end":3933.744,"text":"我願意要輪到誰誰講嗎?到順序來。往往的答案是嗎?來,還我麥克風。我麥克風還給我。還我麥克風。你要拿回去金門嗎?誒。誒。誒,你不要,你不要來。陳昇,來,麥克風還給我。誒,現在是怎麼亂掉的啊?"},{"start":4060.677,"end":4084.223,"text":"好,我們繼續,這個吳秉慧委員的,我們已經發文邀請這個衛部次長了吳秉慧委員的第2個,第3個,我講一下,聯部有來,次長有來,來那個,吳秉慧委員的第3個問題就是新北市的,新北市12位委員沒有請地方過來那委員們應該自己提議啦,這是委員的提議啦,接著我們請第3位"},{"start":4087.564,"end":4090.906,"text":"王定宇、委員王定宇、委員王定宇、委員王定宇、委員王定宇、委員"},{"start":4112.68,"end":4122.505,"text":"沒有機會問他啊!我們沒有機會問他!所有手上的麥克風都被消音了,為什麼呢?我的意思是說我們新北市的財政局長來的時候,我們沒有機會問他!他沒有要主動發言,不代表我們沒有權利問他問題吧!"},{"start":4139.079,"end":4153.578,"text":"我們的監督對象是中央官員不要把自己坐低了來王帝委員請發言不要把自己坐低了我們有全力邀請地方政府的官員來來列席啊我們已經邀請過多次那我邀請你還要再邀請啊警隊的王帝委員發言我邀請你還邀請啊他一口氣要給我們拿幾百億他不要來喔"},{"start":4157.93,"end":4175.344,"text":"我還要問他這麼多錢他要怎麼用?那這個錢夠不夠?雙一黨還要用得更多啊?我一定會回選區問你選區的意見請王定宇委員發言王定宇委員為什麼我不能主張我選區的權利王定宇委員請發言啊為什麼我不能主張我選區的權利王定宇委員有"},{"start":4177.356,"end":4189.004,"text":"吳秉樂委員你不要干擾王帝委員的發言吳秉樂委員你是不是願意讓王帝委員去發言我的問題你沒有回答,我是跟王帝委員無關吳秉樂委員你為什麼不邀請新北市政府來我沒有在這邊跟你們討論啊"},{"start":4209.712,"end":4224.701,"text":"來這個,這個,那你不要講話,五體委員會我來回答你的問題齁,各個縣市的財政處長什麼各個單位都已經來過很多次了,我們已經多次敦請他們發言,他們都表示不要發言了,我問這是我的權利,我現在問都不在啊!"},{"start":4234.708,"end":4244.601,"text":"對不起,我們執行的部的單位是中央部會,地方的話,你應該記住地方基層的民意代表的權利"},{"start":4248.254,"end":4270.528,"text":"三次為什麼來?本來就有權力邀請啊!不能讓三次為什麼來?我們已經邀請三次了。他們已經來過。我不能讓我們新北市政府選自己的問題嗎?新北市政府你覺得你不能代表新北市的民意嗎?我為什麼不行?我是新專選的咧!所以你來代表就像現在一樣。"},{"start":4274.593,"end":4282.046,"text":"各地方政府的財政局的相關單位也要來啊!沒有沒有!今天沒有官員還沒有!現在還沒有!黃帝維!我們這邊沒有官員!"},{"start":4286.041,"end":4307.173,"text":"我請你到這邊發言,我決定你到這邊發言,他要幹那你就當他要幹那因為今天是主條審查,我會問很多的意見,這個地方政府代表一定會來你上次問過不代表我沒問過了那我問一下大家一下好不好,你們可不可以回過要請他們都來,讓我市長授權的代表來,因為今天會有很多主條審查會處理到很多細節的部分"},{"start":4308.174,"end":4315.278,"text":"我委員會要求高雄的市長、副市長、人才坐下來,好不好?請你來坐。你們坐下我來採釋好不好?請我來坐。這個委員會委員,你提出的是說,大家可以安靜嗎?我們來回答。吳秉樂委員你的意思是說,希望各個地方還是要派代表來參加這個修法嗎?是不是?"},{"start":4334.251,"end":4336.096,"text":"我的意思是你注意聽我講什麼請他不要跟喔"},{"start":4340.62,"end":4364.351,"text":"新北市政府的財政局或是新北市政府要來為什麼我要問他說如果他多得這麼多錢他要怎麼花那他多得這些錢夠不夠他跟台北市說有的版本說台北市一定要保障3%他滿不滿意他不服務服務期之後決定為什麼台北市可以框定3%我們新北市不能框定5%"},{"start":4365.932,"end":4382.958,"text":"這些問題難道我不需要問他嗎?那你說到來這裡,來過他沒有意見不代表我現在不能問他啊!可以喔?我可以回答了嗎?好,請。你要問的這些問題,你身為一個地方的立法委員,你本來就應該在地方問清楚,來代表地方的民意,到中央來反映。"},{"start":4383.658,"end":4386.979,"text":"但我沒有你說話的地位,我先請,我沒有發言地位,還沒到,還沒到"},{"start":4410.259,"end":4437.188,"text":"主席的權力沒有那麼大吧?主席的權力有大到這種程度嗎?我要求邱雄的代表要來到現場。我要求邱雄的代表要來到現場。你還要教人家怎麼當立委?你再怎麼討論啊?你有那麼大?你就財政就有什麼意思嗎?我們一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十。"},{"start":4439.588,"end":4442.65,"text":"主席,你還不記得這一天?主席,你還不記得這一天?"},{"start":4463.832,"end":4469.377,"text":"朱立倫沒有那麼偉大啦!不用那麼聽朱立倫的啦!朱立倫沒那麼偉大啦!"},{"start":4488.609,"end":4515.074,"text":"而且你開會的通知是一、三、四喔!有三天的會議喔!你今天沒有開你可以邀請地方政府來啊!你也可以當財司啊!為什麼不能當財司?這也非常奇怪餒!難道今天就要強度關章嗎?是誰下給你的指令?要這麼聽話?這樣就非常的匪夷所思啊!難道是我們黨黨中央要指揮國民黨的立法院黨團嗎?有機會這麼聽話嗎?委員跟委員"},{"start":4516.766,"end":4538.774,"text":"我們財政委員會都沒有不如好好充分討論嗎?有這種道理嗎?兩個禮拜前你怎麼這樣說的啊?要讓大家倉儲議員啊?今天為什麼一定要進入主條?這沒有道理嘛!我這樣說你啊!陳一中委員!我再說你啊!這沒有道理嘛!哎啦!沒有開過這樣主持會議的啦!"},{"start":4540.162,"end":4556.951,"text":"等21人等22人等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等27人等28人等28人等29人等30人等31人等32人等34人等35人等35人等36人等37人等38人等39人等40人等41人等42人等45人等45人等46人等47人等48人等49人等49人等50人等50人等51人等52人等53人等54人等55人等56人等56人等57人等57人等58人等58人等59人等59人等59人等60人等60人等60人等61人等61人等62人等62人等63人等63人等64人等65人等65人等67人等67人等68人等68人等69人等79人等70人等70人等80人等71人等71人等71人等71人等72人等71人等72"},{"start":4559.07,"end":4572.567,"text":"等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等28人等29人等30人等31人等32人等34人等35人等36人等37人等38人等39人等40人等41人等42人等45人等45人等46人等47人等48人等49人等50人等51人等52人等53人等54人等55人等56人等56人等57人等57人等58人等59人等59人等59人等60人等60人等60人等61人等61人等62人等63人等63人等64人等65人等67人等67人等68人等68人等68人等69人等79人等70人等70人等70人等71人等71人等71人等72人等72人等72人等73人等73人等74人等74人等78人等78人等78人等79人等79人等79"},{"start":4575.754,"end":4589.172,"text":"發言地位我說沒有發言地位是我沒有主席沒有給發言地位你是不能發言的這是會會的ABC我給誰發言地位誰才可以發言我會讓每個人都有機會發言你要尊重其他委員也要發言好嗎"},{"start":4591.714,"end":4607.842,"text":"我沒有這樣講,我請他回去詢問民意,你應該回去地方詢問民意。陳一貞,陳一貞,我跟你講這個是金門的ABC,沒有是陳一貞講的算的,那又是這樣子啦,金門的ABC。"},{"start":4609.568,"end":4624.241,"text":"我講一個基本的點吼高雄的污染這麼多現在高雄還在舉警台北是綠的沒有空污的影響就台北直接分3%高雄連零都沒有這樣的事情不用請高雄市政府來說一下不用請台北市政府來說一下嗎"},{"start":4625.748,"end":4647.33,"text":"不要完全剝奪掉立委蓋的權限我再強調高雄現在空污嚴重高雄的空污是因為送電到中北部來高雄的空污是因為鋼鐵高雄的空污是因為石化產業付出這麼多這件事情不用做討論嗎?連高雄市政府要邀請他來陳玉珍都不接受邀請主席沒這麼大啦"},{"start":4648.82,"end":4652.324,"text":"阿如果全部都回去討論的話我沒有說不邀請喔是你們一直干擾喔"},{"start":4658.203,"end":4685.32,"text":"我再強調一次我再跟你說明一下立法院的職權行使法有必要的可以邀請各單位不是只有中央單位連地方政府也可以邀請第二個我有很多的問題想要問新北市的財政局局長包括說臺北市匡列的3%新北市為0他居然來這邊的時候他都沒有意見"},{"start":4686.501,"end":4708.829,"text":"這樣沒有愧對新北市的國市民嗎?這樣的財政局長不用下台嗎?新北市12個立委,為什麼我們的框的是0,台北市8個立委,他要框3%?那高雄、台南、台中、桃園都沒有框,其他的落後縣市也都沒有,那個財政比較弱勢的地方也沒有框,只有台北市框3%"},{"start":4710.826,"end":4734.186,"text":"吳秉瑞委員我沒有說不要邀請但是你一直干擾因為你的其他同仁一直干擾會議進行我都還沒有機會講所以如果大家都可以安靜下來每一位都有發言的機會我們會做採釋好嗎像我剛要採釋的時候賴樂榮、郭國英要一直干擾每個人都有我會邀請那可以讓我採釋嗎你們可以不要一直干擾會議進行嗎我會邀請可以我會邀請那我們現在"},{"start":4736.935,"end":4755.813,"text":"所以說你有那麼多自賣客房結果你還去搶了人家的花園民進黨民進黨都搶很久了沒有沒有沒有也沒有人到賴瑞榮賴瑞榮比我晚到那麼久啊對不對就是女生不想沒有意見不想意見"},{"start":4757.715,"end":4760.676,"text":"每一件事我當面要看是我們的因應方案是什麼嘛﹖他對於高雄"},{"start":4773.622,"end":4788.145,"text":"沒有分配到!他無重演奏!為台灣的環境服務這麼多!臺北直接可以拿3%!高雄0%!對!高雄4個!臺北1次!講到3%就只有臺北的3%了!你能讓他們講不出來只有3%!不接受的都不用多!"},{"start":4790.127,"end":4809.277,"text":"為什麼台北市金孫條款可以多3%?其他的縣市都沒有?台北市明明財政的自有財源最多、最高財政狀況最好為什麼他可以多3%?國民黨一直講不清楚這是金孫條款嗎?大孫搬到廁所?大孫給3%?哪有這種道理?阿今天要關市咧?要怎樣?"},{"start":4816.161,"end":4839.233,"text":"對嗎?為甚麼?為甚麼?台北市多3%?對嗎?蔣家第4代多3%?就這樣子?台北市可以多3%?為甚麼?道理從哪邊來?為甚麼可以多200多億?為甚麼?沒道理嘛!講不出來!其他縣市不能讓人家發言,哪有這種道理?"},{"start":4845.256,"end":4858.414,"text":"這裡向陳一貞委員抗議。我們所有手上拿的麥克風都沒有聲音。都沒有聲音。議事人員配合陳一貞主席消音。"},{"start":4861.549,"end":4889.056,"text":"非常沒有道理!議事人員!台北市可以多3%?那我問一下,謝榮介為什麼台南不能多3%?柯志恩、高雄為什麼不能多3%?很奇怪啊!你這裡這兩個人都選高雄市長、選台南市長的為什麼說台北市可以多3%?謝榮介應該出來講個話啊!對不對?柯志恩應該出來講個話,為什麼謝榮介、柯志恩都沒有來?怎麼服從金村條款嘛?"},{"start":4890.677,"end":4891.137,"text":"我們現在繼續開會齁剛剛的議程齁"},{"start":4911.188,"end":4930.065,"text":"剛剛的議程我們是進行到這個吳秉瑞委員的這個會議詢問嘛齁那剛剛本席還沒有回答結束啦齁但是因為受到其他委員的干擾但是我要先再澄清一下我馬上就要講了誰干擾你呢我要協商了你請等一下好嗎不要干擾好嗎我要協商了主席誰干擾你呢"},{"start":4931.306,"end":4931.526,"text":"主席是有權利給誰發言,第一位"},{"start":4960.046,"end":4964.807,"text":"等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":4984.612,"end":5009.625,"text":"我把程序讓大家清楚大家不要慌張我們今天有很多會議詢問我們還有請問10點前登記還沒有登記的請來登記每一位都有機會講每一位都有機會發言請其他人不要干擾會 等全部講完再第二輪好嗎等一下喔 等一下蔡議員說要協商你也可以登記會議詢問好 然後"},{"start":5013.379,"end":5031.167,"text":"然後呢剛剛說這個吳秉瑞委員是說回去問選區的意見不是回他家問回選區去問意見是應該的含量登記的可以來登記喔到這個10點以前截止登記我們要讓每個人都可以發言好嗎阿第二輪請等一下我不是說我回選區我說叫他來這邊我要問他來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":5037.37,"end":5051.146,"text":"都不要亂塞到我的嘴巴裡面我剛剛講的是要請新北市政府的財政局或是新北市政府來或是說我要回去地方那你不要說是我說我沒有這樣講啦是他說回家"},{"start":5055.49,"end":5058.733,"text":"黨團派代表來這裡協商一下,我們協商20分鐘,休息20分鐘協商"},{"start":5085.154,"end":5110.285,"text":"等一下開始開會要按鈴啦!欸,主席,我照規則沒等那麼久,現在是我自己直接上來就好了。不是啦,好好,我跟你講,這個法要好好立啦。地方政府的平行分配根本還沒有談好。我們這裡來自地方不分黨派的委員,地方分配就是因為太重要才會這麼多年這個法,很難討論嘛。"},{"start":5112.486,"end":5120.491,"text":"啊你現在只是協商方法地方財政局要不要表達意見地方的平行分配要不要讓委員來詢問然後這樣開會強度關山了陳先生委員"},{"start":5126.072,"end":5133.2,"text":"我跟你講你今天準備的程序不足啦我跟你講你不能你不能你不要當作這個倒過就好啊知識體大"},{"start":5145.294,"end":5153,"text":"所以我意思說我們今天就先...那還是有這麼多會議詢問還是要問啊?會議詢問讓他們問啊!剛剛吳秉銳說,今天有3、4、3天的會議嘛,你今天不用嘛,你可以到下禮拜嘛,他說今天就請大家講"},{"start":5169.813,"end":5171.014,"text":"我一定要新北市的財政局長以上"},{"start":5196.048,"end":5197.349,"text":"現在我沒辦法一致,我沒辦法"},{"start":5222.759,"end":5223.099,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":5243.822,"end":5250.764,"text":"還有地方制度法、還有公債法、還有地方...對!就是還沒有一定礙堂...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼...那你怎麼..."},{"start":5266.038,"end":5287.821,"text":"主席時間還沒到啊時間還沒到還在協商啊你不用急著上台啊不用那麼快上班等一下等一下我們再協商一下不是單位要來而已還有包括上次有提到的事權跟財權相關的相關的法案跟意見要提出相關的部會意見它有沒有夠時間準備包括地方制度法包括公債法"},{"start":5288.422,"end":5312.633,"text":"包括地方稅法通則相關的法案當中要一併提出這是兩個禮拜之前陳玉珍召委所下的結論陳玉珍召委兩個禮拜下的結論不至於這個禮拜就忘記吧都還沒有執行對不對我在慎重的提醒不是相關單位還沒有你讓他休息一下因為你剛剛才是休息30分鐘有的不在場有的不在場齁"},{"start":5313.934,"end":5327.822,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":5342.09,"end":5364.863,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅明等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":5369.445,"end":5390.452,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5403.319,"end":5417.974,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5425.379,"end":5450.404,"text":"你們倆剛剛在罵縣市那個我都有幫你們排上團給黨團應該黨團會幫你們撿出來我們不是在罵團我們不需要真的我們要問你啊第一個 剩下這麼多錢你要怎麼用第二個 剩下這樣你夠不夠啊第三個 台北市政府匡列了3%啊你沒有 新北都沒有你為什麼不表示意見主席說你沒有表示意見你為什麼不表示意見"},{"start":5460.012,"end":5465.478,"text":"我覺得第一個問題他們就回答不出來 增加那麼多選票怎麼用 他就回答不出來對啊 那這樣就證明說你這個程序就是要"},{"start":5478.831,"end":5480.212,"text":"挖中央的錢去浪費財政"},{"start":5508.642,"end":5518.745,"text":"人家配合我比較好。我被老公麥克風幫你關機,然後他那個小房間他把我閃了。什麼小房間?因為那個是陰控室。剛才我問那個異常人,他們說他們配合他。"},{"start":5548.239,"end":5560.007,"text":"喂喂喂喂,聲音測試小房間被神秘的打開了誒,議事人員又把音控擋開囉有沒有得到陳一貞委員的同意"},{"start":5561.284,"end":5563.266,"text":"議事人員又把音控打開囉!"},{"start":5581.144,"end":5588.031,"text":"我們也要想說快三打,我們要先打打,馬上就進入了對阿,對阿,對阿就問各個地方的教育局長阿"},{"start":5602.619,"end":5608.381,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員"},{"start":5635.265,"end":5642.619,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5669.906,"end":5698.285,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5704.59,"end":5707.761,"text":"委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員洪孟楷等20人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅"},{"start":5755.105,"end":5767.054,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會"},{"start":5783.473,"end":5810.718,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會第6次全體委員會"},{"start":5816.664,"end":5827.102,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":5841.049,"end":5853.602,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委"},{"start":5861.146,"end":5874.414,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員"},{"start":5882.159,"end":5909.497,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5915.418,"end":5930.696,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":5947.654,"end":5971.684,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》24案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》25案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》26案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》27案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》27案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分"},{"start":5977.671,"end":6004.701,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6007.09,"end":6026.566,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷�"},{"start":6036.329,"end":6049.303,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":6050.825,"end":6065.592,"text":"所要求、要來問的東西都是掛、掛、就不在稿委裡面。你為什麼要讓我進來訪問你?你為什麼要讓我進來訪問你?你為什麼要讓我進來訪問你?你為什麼要讓我進來訪問你?"},{"start":6069.313,"end":6085.078,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":6086.498,"end":6106.149,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":6111.032,"end":6118.66,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6133.549,"end":6153.287,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》24案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》25案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》26案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》27案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》28案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》29案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》30案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分"},{"start":6154.108,"end":6172.273,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》23案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分"},{"start":6181.664,"end":6187.858,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6190.657,"end":6195.118,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨黨統統委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查"},{"start":6216.277,"end":6222.774,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查"},{"start":6232.108,"end":6253.575,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6260.087,"end":6280.244,"text":"國民黨本身最瘋狂跟最懲罰的就是公交,他們的懲罰法要求要不正確,公投他們沒有要求要來亂的啊。"},{"start":6283.596,"end":6287.752,"text":"等23人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人"},{"start":6294.882,"end":6311.609,"text":"我剛剛的講法是說我一定會對著黨團的承諾去選下一屆我問他下一屆說有需要下個會期或是下一屆我再來選我會宣告說我下個會期下次要他來選我來辦理這個法案我會選這個法案"},{"start":6320.151,"end":6344.589,"text":"我們現在繼續開會為了維持會場秩序請議事長把麥克風的音控關掉然後剛剛吳秉瑞委員所提出的就是各個縣市政府我們現在發函邀請各個地方尊重吳秉瑞委員的意見就是發函邀請各所有縣市政府派"},{"start":6346.61,"end":6357.046,"text":"二、派相關人員到本會來列席。現在發公文。還有尊重在……他要派誰我沒有辦法決定嘛。"},{"start":6359.952,"end":6383.268,"text":"我這是尊重地方縣市長說話因為我派財政局長他不派我也不能對他怎麼樣我的監督單位是中央部會嘛我這樣寫太不尊重地方縣市長了我們請派財政相關人員列席嘛你要尊重地方縣市長他自然知道哪個相關人員嘛我們尊重一下地方縣市長好不好我們怎麼可以要求他一定要派誰"},{"start":6385.967,"end":6408.553,"text":"不是,這個是地方政府在決定的嘛,我們怎麼可以僭越我們的,僭越,那你可以這樣做,你可以這樣,你可以說他不來你要扣10%,我沒有意見啊。對,我當然是給他自己,當然啊,是啊,當然啊,代委員說好,如果市長要來呢,對不對,那我們都尊重嘛。對對,我們都尊重地方政府,不能聽他決定什麼。"},{"start":6409.913,"end":6430.945,"text":"對啦 那反正我們發函邀請嘛 這個是這樣子嘛我當然不能指定誰來啊 我沒有這個權利啦好 他們會來是尊重他們然後接著還有剛剛胡平樂委員所說的衛福部次長以外我想大家都會覺得各個部會可能都有相關我們發函請各個部會喔 政務次長以上要來齁然後這個請我們就發函喔 禮拜三啦齁"},{"start":6432.866,"end":6454.238,"text":"主席,你登記一下發言好嗎?然後這個財化環節這麼重要的話,你就應該把麥克風關掉主席,在這裡再一次提醒你,如果財化環節這麼重要的話,你總是要維持一個秩序維持秩序就是不要用手持麥克風搶,每個人都沒有上來講,都有機會"},{"start":6457.299,"end":6472.702,"text":"當然是都要上來才能發言尊重其他委員的發言我為了要維持秩序不得已一定要請大家上來發言你現在也不應該站在這裡發言接著我們請范雲車請范委員發言做會議詢問請你的麥克風把它開出來聲音這個聲音非常重要的"},{"start":6485.986,"end":6487.732,"text":"竟然財化法是這麼重要的話"},{"start":6491.129,"end":6517.35,"text":"主席我有會議詢問主要是詢問主席為何不讓各界充分參與討論審慎規劃等到有一個有共識的草案之後我們再來推動修法我有幾個理由第一個理由是我想我們剛剛已經上一次也非常多人討論我也講過了目前我們看到光國民黨自己立委的版本"},{"start":6518.271,"end":6534.478,"text":"就是中央要釋出多少財源就南圓北側。曾政前委員的版本是中央應該釋出財源7633億。陳玉珍委員,我們今天的主席是328億。你們兩個人之間的差距就是7200億。"},{"start":6537.259,"end":6552.449,"text":"那同一個縣市剛剛我們有講地方政府沒有代表在這光雲林我們出生雲林的張家俊委員的版本是6612億那選出的丁學忠的委員的版本是3035億差距兩"},{"start":6556.035,"end":6582.637,"text":"好 接下來我來回答范委員的提問如果要繼續講請那個 如果要繼續講就請登記下一個提示好 我來回答范委員的提問你說的我們開會就是不能會而不意 意而不覺所以我們也尊重大家意見請各個地方縣市政府大家知道國土計劃法也沒有邀請各個縣市政府過來發言但是我們還是邀請啦好 接著請張雅琳委員 謝謝張委員"},{"start":6587.853,"end":6596.045,"text":"時間已經到,尊重下一位,等一下還有第二輪,可以繼續登記,可以繼續登記喔,等一下,等一下我們還會繼續登記喔,尊重後面的委員。"},{"start":6604.767,"end":6624.892,"text":"張雅琳委員,不在喔,張雅琳委員,那你請發言,我對不起,你不要站到發言台位置,請張委員發言,謝謝,請那位委員不要干擾張委員的發言時間,時間太短了,太短可以繼續登記,等一下有第二輪、第三輪、第四輪,好!"},{"start":6625.652,"end":6635,"text":"本期這樣宣布,如果大家都有這個意見,今天就開會,不會到5點半齁,繼續開齁,繼續延長,延長開會時間有沒有意見,沒意見,好,就這樣,來,請問張雅琳委員,對,會延長發言,會,會讓每個人有第二輪、第三輪、第四輪、第五輪,今天一定會開到5點半齁,開到12點齁繼續開,我們有三天的時間,會讓大家"},{"start":6652.875,"end":6668.854,"text":"大家唱首預言,大家可以準備挑燈夜戰。議事組,他們各位官員聽到,今天要挑燈夜戰喔。來,這個張海靈委員,我會讓大家唱首預言,講到大家不想講為止,來。各位部會要注意喔,今天要延長喔。"},{"start":6671.008,"end":6692.998,"text":"請正委員我想上次其實10月21號我們才開會來討論就是說要邀請地方縣市來跟做一些討論來做一些更清楚的去整合那上次呢其實我有詢問過財政部就是說地方其實意見非常非常難整合那我就非常擔心因為現在我們可以看到我們現在地方財政紀律很"},{"start":6693.578,"end":6708.464,"text":"他紀律不佳的案例例如我們創造很多的文資館、博物館、訓練場浪費了20多億元那現在呢在我們這個如果我們要用這種現在這一種不討論事權只拿錢不辦事的方案去執行的時候"},{"start":6709.224,"end":6733.48,"text":"我們現在可能會受到影響的方案就會有少子化、少子女化計劃等學前教育0到2歲的托育津貼、托育公共化及准公共化服務暨托育還有我們現在颱風剛過我們現在其實非常需要排水防洪的計劃可是我們現在完全不知道這些財政機率不佳的縣市要怎麼執行例如可能"},{"start":6735.224,"end":6735.764,"text":"王定宇委員"},{"start":6765.914,"end":6782.103,"text":"請王定義委員,謝謝主席,建議你不要卡麥克風,我們都希望把這個法修好因為大家一直干擾會議進行啦,大家軍政會議...好,重新開始可以啊"},{"start":6801.823,"end":6826.619,"text":"我們會加時間給你啊事實上他不開麥克風是他自己的錯誤,也也人家他不想開,好,尊重他從來啦從來啦從來啦從來這一個,欸,那個有閒雜人等阿桑在講話拜託制止一下啦嘿"},{"start":6830.011,"end":6830.211,"text":"財政劃支法"},{"start":6841.974,"end":6863.216,"text":"不管誰執政當總統其實都有提到過為什麼多年來難以去把他修法完成各位親愛的同事不管你是哪個黨派這個牽涉到地方的財政而今天我們必須了解地方政府對於平行分配的準則比方說像苗栗"},{"start":6864.177,"end":6883.82,"text":"秒立他的財政困難,他要怎麼分配比較好?比方說縱北、青南、高雄跟台南應該怎麼分配比較好?為什麼首都莫名其妙多了3%?為什麼沒有?這些都應該要討論可是我們看到的是,地方財政首長沒有來以外我直接問了台南市的財政局長,他反對啊"},{"start":6885.309,"end":6899.7,"text":"這個不是多數決這不是分財產用表決的方式這牽涉到國家制度第二個中央跟地方的垂直分配牽涉到中央統籌的不管是福利、交通、國防、外交"},{"start":6900.18,"end":6927.951,"text":"重大經貿政策等,這個分配比例,它既科學又藝術,這也是多年來在討論的,這也應該好好討論。第三個,它牽涉到法律,不管是公債法、地方的稅收法,還是我們的財政劃支法,牽涉到部會者重。所以今天我很遺憾的,我們會議請問的是,為什麼我們不能質詢相關的官員?今天我們沒有登記質詢單。我相信每一個委員,不管他來自哪個..."},{"start":6929.712,"end":6955.189,"text":"我回答王定義委員的發言王定義委員是第一次到本委員會來發言吧地方縣市政府已經來了兩次以上了台南市財政局長或是代表也有對不起已經到我給了你兩分鐘請回去看錄影帶我已經給了你兩分鐘了然後台南市的財政單位上次有上來講話我給了你兩分鐘好謝謝"},{"start":6959.113,"end":6987.909,"text":"我給了你兩分鐘比其他人還多因為剛剛你說比較晚開始你問一下我們議事人是不是寄了兩分鐘給他寄了兩次的一分鐘給你第一次你說有少好接著我們請賴銳龍委員發言賴銳龍委員發言請發言你做會議請問我回答你請賴銳龍委員發言你可以登記第二次因為我竣動後面的委員讓每個人都有機會"},{"start":6989.892,"end":7013.274,"text":"等大家問完就第二次,不用擔心,你可以來登記,等大家發言完了,現在第一輪已經有二、三十個了,沒有衝突,來,現在有,來,熱衡委員請發言,謝謝。請來熱衡委員發言。那這樣子,如果,我現在宣告,如果有人站在主席台,站在發言台,那請到這邊發言。好,我們兩邊都可以,沒關係。好,請來熱衡委員發言,謝謝。"},{"start":7017.298,"end":7018.12,"text":"尊重每個委員發言的權利"},{"start":7035.293,"end":7040.935,"text":"主席各位同仁我想財劃法相當重要那我認為當在做主條的時候特別在大體或主條的時候一定要讓所有的充分來討論因為每一個都會牽涉到"},{"start":7054.64,"end":7078.019,"text":"這個不容易啦 如果那麼容易的話不會經過5次的都沒辦法通過啦所以這件事情知識體大對地方政府、對中央都很大的影響我認為一定要好好充分討論那也一定要邀請地方政府的代表市長願意來很好副市長願意來也很好或者他授權財政局來都可以但是一定要來因為每個立委針對每一個條文都會有充分的意見要去詢問他這個一定要做到所以我期望"},{"start":7078.539,"end":7107.578,"text":"等到所有的這些首長們來了以後再來進行所以我希望今天要不就等到他們來要不就等到禮拜三再來處理我希望大會主席做個才事第二個是我還是要強調高雄今天早上出發從高雄來到台北的時候高雄是局景這個超過100空氣的局景而台北是綠的這個是冬天的常態高雄的局景是因為高雄過去以來它的重工業城市它的鋼鐵、它的石化、它的台電"},{"start":7109.139,"end":7133.352,"text":"台電電力一發往中往北送,高雄只擁有60%的電力,40%的電力是往北送天然氣跟燃煤都在做,所以這些都是高雄不斷為台灣經濟所付出的而在這些財政的劃分的比例上面,我過去從來沒有重視過這件事情所以我的提案,我希望能夠慎重重視這個問題但是我看到了國民黨提案在16條之一,因為首都就加了3%"},{"start":7134.392,"end":7152.861,"text":"對於一個首都直接加3% 佔盡了所有的優勢而高雄作為共眾工業城市 污染對台灣的經濟富裕這麼多 完全沒有所以我認為這件事情 我要聽高雄市政府的想法 我也要聽所有各部會的想法同時間我希望在審查的時候 各委員都能夠審酌來討論我認為 這個才是一個公平正義的一個狀態所以我希望 第一個"},{"start":7158.744,"end":7170.255,"text":"等到他們來,再來審。禮拜三再來做這個進行程序。第二個,我希望能夠慎重的聽到我們的意見。慎重聽到我們的意見。不要讓重工業的城市..."},{"start":7179.805,"end":7180.265,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7197.313,"end":7222.86,"text":"的那個版本你如果對高雄也應該增加3%、2%你也可以提出來喔好接著我們請陳俊宜委員發言你第一個是好有我們已經尊重大家的意見就是邀請各縣市相關的人不管他們要縣市長來、財政局長來我們都邀請那今天大家都還沒有講完看大家講到幾點對不對你今天叫他來也不好意思嘛那我們請他禮拜三要過來對是的謝謝賴委員"},{"start":7225.741,"end":7233.887,"text":"禮拜三會邀請各縣市的相關人員還有各部會政務次長以上來這邊列席禮拜三財化法這麼的重要我希望能夠有比較完整完善的一個討論因為財化法已經25年未修了希望未來的這個修法可以符合大家的期待"},{"start":7256.038,"end":7280.932,"text":"因為財政是肅政之母那缺乏健全的財政作為後盾的話政府的一切施政將無法順利的展開那我有幾項建議第一項就是希望在穩健的財政的基礎條件之上我們的統籌分配稅額規模可以擴大"},{"start":7281.857,"end":7293.642,"text":"第二、對於直轄市還有縣市的標準應該是要一致第三、要考量區域的平衡適度地針對各縣市的需求調節營需第四"},{"start":7297.523,"end":7313.052,"text":"希望這個同時來檢視地方的政府財政努力的程度給予合理的補助那我希望說我們針對這個部分應該是有比較完善的討論能夠讓所有的立委能夠表達我們的意見"},{"start":7315.553,"end":7337.203,"text":"謝謝陳俊宇委員發言會我們會給大家充分發言時間不管會詢問程序發言會有逐條討論大家都有充分的時間那因為我們會控制時間是因為還有第二輪嘛講完還要講像上次講到第三輪都沒人要講啦所以因為我們要讓每個人都有發言的機會接著我們請李昆城委員李委員謝謝"},{"start":7351.257,"end":7366.894,"text":"等一下主席在我會議詢問之前齁我先來一個權宜問題我們每個委員講完之後可不可以請你不要做評論每次講完之後你就做評論啊我一次回答會議詢問我沒有評論是你們問我我只好回答你不要問我就不用回答你這個問題已經問過很多次了你怎麼可以再問"},{"start":7369.657,"end":7398.528,"text":"我沒有說你可以再問,你們當然可以再問每個委員都是獨立的個體每個委員他有怎麼問是他的事情阿對不對那你信不信要你的問題我來回答,如果不希望我就沒有你就不用不用我講完之後你就回答好你講完你只是要講話每個每個委員都一樣那李昆哲委員我就不回答了因為你這個是會議詢問阿你不是針對會議詢問你每次都針對個別委員會議我會很冤枉欸我回答會議詢問也不行喔沒有阿你這個不是會議詢問的答覆那你進入會議詢問吧你每一次都是"},{"start":7398.928,"end":7400.59,"text":"請你進入會議請問有問題耶"},{"start":7420.373,"end":7430.4,"text":"全議問題啊!時間重來啊!我這個不是問題館長!李坤正維你要不要進行會議詢問?你要不要進行會議請開始啊!時間重來!重來!重來!好!重來!開始啊!我這個是全議問題,不是會議詢問啊!好!請開始進行會議詢問!不是啊!你要先答應我啊!我的全議問題要先做才是啊!如果你們不問我,我就不會回答!等一下!時間用!我這個是全議問題,不是會議詢問啊!"},{"start":7443.929,"end":7453.437,"text":"如果你們不問我,我是不會回答。剛剛代理人委員就要求我一定要回答。所以我一定要回答。時間暫停啦!時間暫停啦!你又在跑!我會補你,你不用擔心。我這個是全委員會提出的會議詢問。"},{"start":7462.124,"end":7488.458,"text":"等下喔所以我這個權宜問題你要開始講了嗎等下我要先要求你啊可不可以個別委員講完之後你不要去做價值評論委員每個委員如果不詢問我你是要查會議詢問我當然就要回答你如果放棄會議詢問我也可以不用回答不是人家不是會議詢問我也很辛苦啊好不好會議詢問你回答你可以回答比如說人家讓你回覆就回答那你不需要我回答對吧不要不要OK好那你開始詢問吧你不用答覆我好我不用答覆"},{"start":7488.598,"end":7497.564,"text":"可以嗎?每個委員也都是一樣每個人有自己的權利,你決定自己的你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要開始問了嗎?你要先回答我啊,先回答我啊你現在要我回答"},{"start":7512.714,"end":7517.158,"text":"主席尊重李村城委員,在你做完詢問以後我不回答,那我們現在開始會議詢問,謝謝"},{"start":7537.538,"end":7564.757,"text":"好 今天齁 在談這個談話法那其實呢 我之前已經有提過了齁 這個是跟權 錢跟權要一起來談嘛那今天呢 這個地方制度法我看也沒有在談啊齁 而且呢 很重要的是說齁現在為什麼要讓台北市有這個3%好 先讓3% 先框3%給台北市這個不是什麼首都條款吶這個是金孫條款吶為什麼台北市還可以有3%"},{"start":7565.698,"end":7587.772,"text":"我看喔,上次的這個新北市的財政局局長來,他說讓3%沒有關係,因為他說什麼?他說侯友宇說,侯友宇市長說,當老大哥就要老大哥的樣子,所以他說可以讓利。新北市為什麼可以讓利?新北市為什麼可以讓利?莫名其妙嘛,所以如果禮拜三,"},{"start":7589.065,"end":7600.503,"text":"新北市財政局局長來,我就要問他為什麼洪瑋瑜說新北市老大哥還可以讓利三趴?為什麼可以讓利?我們新北市人口最多啊!為什麼要先讓利?"},{"start":7604.409,"end":7629.078,"text":"然後因為要會議詢問的委員很多第一輪剛登記完畢等一下我們就開始開放第二輪登記到11點然後會議詢問結束有誠信發言然後還有會議詢問的第二輪好嗎然後接著我們請如果要登記的剛才我看沈博洋委員要上來登記第二輪就可以上來登記好嗎接著請郭益勳委員謝謝對不起你看我們是郭益勳委員"},{"start":7630.931,"end":7641.241,"text":"國疫情委員有在嗎?要發言可以登記第二輪,我們還有第二輪等委員會有程序發言,請發言國疫情委員"},{"start":7647.116,"end":7666.321,"text":"你少講一點就會比較前面你不要我回答第二輪可以開始登記登記到11點第二輪可以來登記歡迎大家來登記第二輪請郭一行委員發言李坤貞委員不要侵犯到郭委員的權利請尊重後面的委員好嗎請每個委員都有發言機會大家輪流來來請郭委員謝謝"},{"start":7673.615,"end":7698.308,"text":"等一下我發言之前,主席可以不要評論我的那個...我不回答你的會議詢問就對了,好,OK,謝謝希望要說到做到喔對,對,對,沒有啦,郭議員不對嗎?是我啊,是我,呵呵呵,好好好郭議員有兩位啊,郭議員兩位啊,你要講清楚啊郭議員啊,這個有寫啊,郭議員,上面有寫啊,郭議員好我說的是郭議員委員嘛"},{"start":7704.659,"end":7732.246,"text":"就說他們長得很像嗎?叫郭義勳委員你幹嘛?不要提出我為了主席!你連臉可不可以提出你們搞不好!你跟彥鑫的長相都提出你們搞不好!不要這樣啦!你會被...性別平等啦!我們這個...我請郭義勳委員發言啦!好好好!OK!好我想這個地方...好我想這個地方其實要提升自己的財政能力不是只有從中央挖錢啦!我想這個..."},{"start":7733.466,"end":7760.831,"text":"應該主席你也同意嘛我舉個例子來講現在其實光是國民黨跟民眾黨他們的整個所有的版本總共有18個18個自己都還沒有統一我用例子來告訴大家這是什麼樣的一個概念父母把小孩養得非常好提供他從小到大的整個不管是升學也好照顧也好全部幫他照顧得好好的父母還沒走喔這些小孩開始想要分遺產了"},{"start":7762.071,"end":7790.058,"text":"好分完遺產之後呢他們之後因為不善理財不善理財之後導致所謂的舉債過度我舉個例子來講齁在2016年被彈劾被監察院彈劾的苗栗苗栗縣的縣長劉正宏他就是因為在財政部好謝謝郭委員喔可以登記第二輪請洪孟楷委員發言喔"},{"start":7791.821,"end":7810.289,"text":"黃孟楷在嗎?黃碼跟誰交換?請王宏威委員發言他們兩個交換王宏威委員王宏威委員在嗎?王宏威委員可以登記第二輪王宏威委員發言郭義賢委員不要干擾後面委員的程序"},{"start":7813.072,"end":7833.709,"text":"你可以登記啦沒關係還有第二輪大家尊重如果大家覺得說不夠還有第三輪、第四輪、第五輪請王后衛委員我給你30秒你給我一聲是不是30秒呼一聲喔好啦6分鐘是6分鐘呼一聲喔這衛教宣導"},{"start":7847.823,"end":7865.918,"text":"還有第二輪嘛第二輪腳還有第三輪嘛我們今天會開到我們今天會開到超分業站吃宵夜大家不用擔心如果大家願意也可以繼續一直開沒關係齁不斷電喔來各位你再講很快講一下好嗎齁"},{"start":7869.955,"end":7896.686,"text":"我剛剛講的其實就是苗栗縣卸任劉政宏縣長他當初就是因為舉債過度造成了所謂的地方政府的財政危機嘛那到後來其實這個徐耀昌的這個縣長的時候其實光是欺欠因為前任欺欠了6億連縣府員工的薪水都發不出來是跟誰求救就是跟中央求救嘛也就是說這些孩子分了財產之後不好好的理財結果"},{"start":7898.027,"end":7925.037,"text":"在外面負債還是要爸媽來付這不對啊這是兩邊在挖錢啊所以不能不把這樣的事情放在前面剛剛其實那位委員有特別講我們的地方政府他們本身的訴求其實不一樣有人是工業他是用廢在拼經濟有的是農業說我已經犧牲我自己發展工業的一個權利每個地方的事權也都不一樣謝謝各位30秒了齁好你可以登記第二輪然後委員請發言喔"},{"start":7927.5,"end":7931.762,"text":"我看到很多委員提出很多的問題請大家去查6月5號"},{"start":7956.295,"end":7979.391,"text":"我們本委員會在羅明才召委召開公聽會之下我們所有的縣市政府的財主單位都到了我們財委會去報告那麼當時所有的縣市財主單位包含高雄、包含台南、包含屏東全部都支持來修正財劃法"},{"start":7980.692,"end":7999.169,"text":"所以我也來建議我們所有的委員你們可以到網路上有非常完整的會議記錄所有你們剛才所提的各縣市的財政財主單位都有在委員會報告都希望修正財劃法"},{"start":8000.37,"end":8021.309,"text":"而我們現在所提出來的包含新北市增加超過300億元高雄市超過300億元難道你們覺得增加是不對的嗎這樣子的一個說法真的很奇怪跟我在6月5號當天我所聽到的各縣市財組單位的話"},{"start":8024.651,"end":8033.019,"text":"謝謝王宏威委員齁謝謝齁要繼續發言請登記第二輪李彥秀委員喔欸?彥秀在嗎?李彥秀委員喔請那個李彥秀委員發言喔謝謝"},{"start":8044.575,"end":8052.963,"text":"李燕秀委員,如果大家減少會議干擾就會比較快速,可以登記第二輪,大家訓練一下,請李燕秀委員發言"},{"start":8060.316,"end":8086.604,"text":"好,歷史真的是一面照妖鏡6月5號今天不是財化法第一次的審查其實已經開過好幾次會議地方縣市首長也來過很多次但是民進黨從過去無論是賴清德自己在當市長潘孟安也好、張花冠也好還有包括李永德過去都認為財化法是不公不義要想辦法把財化法修正修大、修好"},{"start":8088.385,"end":8096.156,"text":"但是今天要修財劃法請問財政部這麼多年民進黨執政第9年了版本在哪裡?"},{"start":8097.628,"end":8124.779,"text":"中央是集權要集權地方活得像乞丐一樣每一次來到巡政院會要看關愛的眼神這一次要給多少地方永遠沒辦法做地方社福也好財政也好做更好完全的規劃更何況很多政策是中央請客地方買單所以地方真的活得非常辛苦民進黨現在的做法"},{"start":8126.4,"end":8132.664,"text":"就是以拖代變不想修直接是打臉過去的賴清德"},{"start":8151.482,"end":8173.527,"text":"好那剛剛很明顯齁這個大家都講不完齁這個希望等一下在下一次的時候我們可以講長一點齁那當然了這個我們是從國防外交的角度來看齁因為大家都一直在講說地方財政的問題齁地方財政需要多少錢但你把錢花到地方的話你中央就會少錢而中央現在少最多的其實會可能是我們的國防預算他會少2900多億那這個2900多億以國防部來講"},{"start":8176.368,"end":8191.657,"text":"他知不知道他今天會被拿走這樣的一個預算國防部需不需要出來告訴來社會大眾或者甚至來參與這個討論有可能是更重要的事所以對我們來講我們一直在提到說地方上大家應該要站出來但是卻沒有想到"},{"start":8192.057,"end":8216.657,"text":"中央現在不管哪一個部會,財源都會減少的狀況之下0到20歲啊什麼等等之類的一些原民的補助啊這些全部都會被拿掉那我想說這是各黨總召也不樂見的情形所以我建議中央其實也應該來跟地方一起來共同討論而不是只有地方來討論這件事情那最後這一個我還是要提到就是說我們現在的順位來講第二個還包含各項的這些專項計畫"},{"start":8217.998,"end":8246.064,"text":"那以花蓮來講有非常多的預算其實都沒有辦法執行那以地方政府如果說剛剛李燕秀有提好 謝謝沈伯陽委員我們有邀請這個國防部也有過來各部位都有邀請接著請羅美玲委員發言謝謝羅美玲委員在嗎羅美玲委員羅美玲委員有在嗎有在嗎羅美玲委員在嗎"},{"start":8248.357,"end":8248.677,"text":"羅美玲委員請發言"},{"start":8279.808,"end":8280.85,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查"},{"start":8299.332,"end":8321.15,"text":"財化法到底是要垂直分配先行還是水平分配先行?這個部分,行政單位跟委員的想法其實都不一樣。不單單如此,各個委員當中提出了20幾個修法的版本,每個版本其實差異性都非常的大。剛剛鳳姨委員也有提出來,"},{"start":8321.971,"end":8340.869,"text":"那連同黨同縣市的這個立委所提出的這個版本差異性都非常的大真的不知道如何要來審查我也不知道為什麼主席這個能夠排得下去那現在呢藍白要從中央搬錢到地方那只知道要錢可是事權呢"},{"start":8342.33,"end":8359.311,"text":"這些錢要怎麼花完全沒有來做討論所以本席認為要修財劃法要討論的空間非常的多不單單是權要討論提使地方自治法也要一併來討論我想相關的法案都要來通盤前面性的討論才好謝謝讀委員"},{"start":8362.114,"end":8386.004,"text":"羅委員說的有道理喔你說的這個因為上一次你沒有來不知道我們已經跟在上次委員會已經宣布財政部內政部的地方製度法財政部的地方稅法通則還有相關的這個財政紀律法都要請趕快提出修正的版本喔上一回就已經有提過了接著請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":8387.364,"end":8407.818,"text":"如果要發言請登記第二輪,請莊委員喔。羅美林委員所提的上一次就已經討論過了。來,那個莊瑞雄委員不在是嗎?你們有要換的嗎?莊瑞雄?莊瑞雄?莊瑞雄不在喔?在嗎?換了嗎?換?莊瑞雄不在?換伍立華,換伍立華,好。我們請伍立華委員發言喔。"},{"start":8418.081,"end":8434.993,"text":"財化法是在國民黨執政多數的時候立的法那時過境遷需要修法也該修法但是我們都是主張說要有共識為什麼這麼說因為過了這麼久為什麼雷大不雨"},{"start":8435.794,"end":8464.471,"text":"就是因為真的地方的財主單位不是傻瓜他們都很會算真的有利可圖嗎我們明明看到這個財劃法是中央地方要通力合作那這8年呢長短期的負債是逐年的下降我們看到地方的補助款也是逐年的上升我舉一個最簡單的例子我們原住民遍佈的文件站從9年前的不到1億現在是一年13億"},{"start":8465.712,"end":8492.26,"text":"我再舉一個例子像就業服務法22年前就有提一個修法原住民人口達2萬人以上應該要設公立的原住民就業機構但是縣市政府都不設我最後是請勞動部來補助所以我在這個地方要特別講現在對我來講這些都是假議題我講一個真議題就是我從上一個屆起我就有提財化法修第三條"},{"start":8493.22,"end":8512.849,"text":"那個就是2010年我們六都合併之後曾經一度失去公法人2014恢復公法人竟然沒有給這些直轄市的園民區財政獨立我一直講你看冤枉了多少年財化法這一題我覺得才是真議題"},{"start":8513.949,"end":8530.655,"text":"無委員你這個意見很好我剛剛第三條我們已經有注意到上次也提過了齁那會這一次會以有列入修正齁大家一起來討論喔謝謝無委員喔接著我們請林楚英委員然後原委會也有來參與會議嘛林楚英委員欸林楚英委員在嗎"},{"start":8539.38,"end":8562.69,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 因為剛剛我只有26秒但我希望能夠讓我講完主席是非常認真的這個財委會的召委喔但是本席要特別剛剛去了解了一下其實過去我們在娛樂稅、囤房稅、地方稅法通則都有邀請地方政府出席那這一次沒錯財劃法我們在首次審查跟公聽會的時候地方政府也有來"},{"start":8563.51,"end":8591.144,"text":"但是在這兩次的會議當中其實地方政府都沒有針對水平分配達成共識每一個都是講說錢拿到了我們再來考慮怎麼花但是不能有這樣的想法因為地方政府必須要先想好當錢來了之後的這個錢隨事權做轉移的時候那麼到底事權有沒有統一的做法跟想法"},{"start":8591.946,"end":8595.642,"text":"剛剛有委員說地方政府像乞丐一樣跟中央要錢"},{"start":8597.341,"end":8624.394,"text":"我相信中央地方應該都是要合作的錢給了地方,地方要想好再來本席因為是不分區所以我考慮到的是不論南北或者是人口稀少的地方每一個都要有一定的分配標準如果分配標準沒有談出來的時候我們坐在這裡討論其實是給地方更大的壓力跟彼此之間的更大的不公平"},{"start":8632.988,"end":8641.578,"text":"上一回在開會的時候"},{"start":8646.113,"end":8672.515,"text":"謝謝上一次在開會的時候我們有請所有地方政府都有過來然後我們也再次詢問他們有沒有意見一直給他們時間後來有四個地方政府上來講發言其他的也有一位用書面的報告其他現在我都不願意再繼續沒有再願意表示意見我沒有給時間然後就林主任委員意見很好謝謝林委員那也請你落實不要只是用說我沒有看到你有相關提案請你做出相關提案比較有幫助吧"},{"start":8674.137,"end":8674.737,"text":"章智倫委員"},{"start":8691.649,"end":8692.209,"text":"請張志仁委員發言"},{"start":8713.72,"end":8715.241,"text":"好,非常感謝主席啊"},{"start":8725.676,"end":8726.316,"text":"請張志榮委員發言,請尊重"},{"start":8750.926,"end":8775.035,"text":"感謝主席、各位委員、各位官員大家早大家今天非常熱烈的在討論財劃法從民國88年到現在25年的財劃法都沒有修了該是修財劃法的時間了尤其今天我拿這個看板給大家看新北市400萬人結果財劃法給過去25年來給新北的人均都是最低的"},{"start":8775.555,"end":8791.173,"text":"那今天很可惜還是沒有看到財政部推出版本不過我相信只要立法院充分的討論在我們召委這麼認真我們看了這麼多次委員會大家充分討論之下我相信全民的共識就是應該中央地方一起合作"},{"start":8791.753,"end":8818.685,"text":"所以今天非常感謝我們召委這樣的排案希望說不管朝野大家一起來努力把一些過去的一些陋習過去一些不公平在這次修法的時候大家充分討論讓六讀我們這次大家知道剛剛風最近公布台台剛過我們很多地方的災情到現在也是需要經費來讓我們家園重新再回覆所以今天如果充分討論我相信財化法通過才是全民之福拜託拜託"},{"start":8821.433,"end":8825.578,"text":"謝謝張志榮委員接著請林代化委員發言林委員在嗎?"},{"start":8827.057,"end":8850.815,"text":"林鄭萬委員在嗎?林鄭萬委員不在喔接著我們請陳培毅委員陳培毅委員陳培毅委員陳培毅委員在嗎?不發言是嗎?陳委員你要發言嗎?陳委員你要發言好大家維持秩序繼續好現在休息下午再繼續了"},{"start":8857.819,"end":8859.927,"text":"我們現在開始休息,下午2點半繼續"},{"start":8889.533,"end":8902.637,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":8908.055,"end":8931.844,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員"},{"start":8940.808,"end":8967.567,"text":"等21人等22人等22人等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等28人等28人等29人等30人等31人等32人等34人等35人等36人等37人等38人等39人等40人等41人等42人等43人等44人等45人等46人等47人等48人等49人等49人等50人等50人等51人等52人等53人等54人等56人等56人等57人等57人等57人等58人等58人等59人等59人等59人等60人等60人等60人等61人等61人等62人等62人等63人等63人等64人等64人等65人等65人等67人等68人等67人等68人等68人等69人等69人等79人等70人等70人等71人等71人等71人等71人等72"},{"start":8971.258,"end":8996.417,"text":"二、本院台灣財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員"},{"start":9002.246,"end":9006.24,"text":"等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人"},{"start":21606.769,"end":21612.375,"text":"第二輪,好,謝謝,現在我們繼續會議,請陳佩玉委員做會議詢問,謝謝一樣啊,要公平齁,沒有,可以登記第二輪、第三輪、第四輪、第五輪齁第三輪、第四輪可以等一下再討論齁陳委員請發言"},{"start":21630.27,"end":21653.41,"text":"在短短的一分鐘之內我還是要先謝謝主席給了我從來沒有過的體驗不管是我以前在上課或是我到立法院來上班之後所有的質詢、所有的討論都必須要在一分鐘之內完成主席剛剛在洗手間的時候還要特別的提醒我現在是會議詢問那麼我強烈要求主席"},{"start":21656.553,"end":21669.127,"text":"如果等一下你要針對每一個委員的發言都有所評論也請你控制你自己的時間在一分鐘以內我想這樣是比較公平的另外我只剩下20秒"},{"start":21671.67,"end":21671.69,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":21701.365,"end":21721.257,"text":"你要讓我...我...謝謝 謝謝陳培...謝謝陳委員下次輪到你當主席的時候你可以這樣要求齁不過今天主席是陳玉珍齁 來主席主席要再跟你做會議詢問我覺得只有一分鐘的話實在是時間太短太短了如果要讓大家充分的一個花言的話應該是時間要長一點"},{"start":21730.134,"end":21756.018,"text":"公聽會已經開過兩次而且已經請各縣市都來發言過了下一輪我們再來討論下一輪我們要第二輪嘛第二輪可以第三輪還有第四輪第五輪每個人都有發言的機會不用擔心那公聽會已經請各縣市都來過了現在都只是在進行程序就是大家是在做會議詢問的程序那大家如果趕快把這個會議的詢問的程序結束以後我們就趕快進入實際的這個討論"},{"start":21759.319,"end":21766.484,"text":"幾分鐘是主席決定下次你當主席你也可以做這樣的決定這是我的全責接著我們請蔡議員謝謝謝謝蔡議員我是皇帝啦我是女的"},{"start":21789.8,"end":21808.255,"text":"主席齁這個一分鐘的時間我想跟主席再確認一下因為我們今天的會議程序當然就是我們很強調的就是說你整個財劃法你的修法你必須要把這個水平分配然後各縣市各地方政府他要達到"},{"start":21809.436,"end":21837.149,"text":"他們基本上他們的論述到底是怎樣而且他們對於合理的分配的數目我認為這是要經過討論的包括剛剛有很多位委員也都起來說台北市它就保障3%這個在其他的六都並沒有這樣那我想這個3%它的道理到底還存不存在過去為了台北市那整個中央政府的資源事實上有很多公共建設都集中在"},{"start":21837.809,"end":21840.271,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":21856.145,"end":21882.211,"text":"或者是其他縣政府說我希望有怎樣的比照那第二個我是認為說因為你既然存在這樣的一個前提我們如果禮拜三地方政府來了我們不要急著就是說好那就馬上進入主條然後從第一條開始討論第二條開始第三條這樣的話就失去了我們邀請地方政府來然後讓他們大家充分表達意見的機會所以我希望禮拜三的程序中我們一定要"},{"start":21884.271,"end":21911.409,"text":"讓地方政府表達意見然後可以讓我們在場的各位委員那也針對財劃法不管是每一個委員的版本之後會相對應到地方政府的影響範圍這部分都必須要透過這樣的一問一答絕對不是說我們大家就坐在這個主條討論的會議桌這裡就可以講出一個所以然來所以我希望主席的話你都程序面因為你一直強調會讓大家參與會議員"},{"start":21914.432,"end":21928.732,"text":"那我就認為說我剛剛講的那個幾點是非常的重要地方政府來的時候要讓每一個地方政府表達他的意見那也許有的地方政府來了會會相當支持國民黨包括主席"},{"start":21930.987,"end":21960.53,"text":"我來回答你的問題喔,謝謝你喔好,來喔第一個喔,所以我們來謝謝蔡委員的這個詢問喔很好喔那我來回答喔第一個就是我們已經發函邀請各縣市的地方政府要派這個當然他們要派什麼呢我不能決定但是我們要派相關人員過來那我覺得蔡議員這樣的提議也非常的好請在發的公表要求請求拜託各縣市政府也要提出他們的想法也要請他們,請求因為我們不能強迫嘛他可以不要嘛對不對"},{"start":21961.35,"end":21987.807,"text":"請求說他們附上我把整個回答完請求附上如果他們有意見請他們要附書面的這個報告請各地方政府要附上書面的報告那他們到這裡以後來不是啊我們大家先看嘛這樣比較好這樣對大家審查比較對我要把它講完你剛剛提的就是這個嘛第一個就是希望各地政府都可以表達意見嘛所以我們請他提這個請各地政府提書面報告"},{"start":21989.788,"end":22009.08,"text":"對對對我再回答他的然後接著呢沒有好然後接著來謝謝蔡委員那你提的這個我們到時候來蔡委員沒關係沒關係好那你好那蔡委員你先回座我也回答完你"},{"start":22011.971,"end":22034.887,"text":"蔡委員你可以先回座,我會回答完,我把它講清楚那我們會請大家提出素面報告那報告的時候呢報告的時候呢,如果各位委員有問題就可以,到時候他們在都可以詢問,好嗎?好,謝謝接著請鍾嘉斌委員沒有,我回答蔡委員很清楚了程序是這樣子對對對,好好,尊重你"},{"start":22037.773,"end":22047.164,"text":"對,我會這樣子做齁。到時候他們來,大家有問題大家可以討論喔。好。這個,中嘉賓委員。對啦,下一個禮拜就換你啦。"},{"start":22049.845,"end":22076.29,"text":"主席財務法關係重大但是因為財委會在審我們會外委員只能用詢問當然詢問就是對主席詢問那我是支持說主席你回答我你盡量講但是不要扣到我的時間我只有一分鐘很好謝謝那請問主席因為有的是關於議程案安排有的只有你能回答請問主席你知道金門的財政收支劃分是金門酒廠挹注給縣政府的收入多還是中央撥給地方政府的收入多"},{"start":22077.657,"end":22104.827,"text":"停 暫停時間 你要等著主席詢問阿你要同意回答嗎 你把時間講完齁我會同意回答你你要同意回答啦齁因為為什麼我渴望得到主席的答案呢因為大家都在說阿 這個陳委員因為他在金門金門的酒廠每年貢獻給金門縣政府的收益多於中央政府撥的那現在呢 主席知道我們屏東縣每年可以從中央得到多少挹注嗎時間暫停"},{"start":22108.166,"end":22108.186,"text":"等。"},{"start":22109.179,"end":22138.451,"text":"我繼續講那我為什麼要問這個問題呢因為大家都希望辦公廳會也希望說地方政府能夠派員參加我過去擔任過地方政府的副縣長我很清楚知道每次在談到財化法都是都跟非都在那邊吵不停地方政府的水平分配永遠大家都有意見那我再請教一下主席金門大學的預算是誰撥的金門高中的預算是誰撥的第三個問題我在那邊聽一下主席的回答"},{"start":22141.484,"end":22159.236,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員特別關注我們金門我跟各位委員報告金門縣的財政自主率是全國排名第三名僅次於台北、新竹是全國第三名我們的財政自主率大概之前佔6成以上那第二點您說屏東的那個那個我說酒廠的收益是佔多少"},{"start":22160.657,"end":22175.613,"text":"九場的收益佔金門縣的財政一年預算是120億我們金門縣一年捐贈金門縣政府是大概40億再加上我們所交的稅給中央的稅是30億所以金九公司佔金門財政60%的收益"},{"start":22178.135,"end":22199.351,"text":"所以我們的財政自主意義是相當高的謝謝謝謝關心第二個屏東縣的不好意思我沒有關心屏東縣這個可能是你們來回答第三個有關金門高中跟金門大學金門縣政府除了中央政府所撥的預算金門縣政府本身每一年還補助金門大學跟金門高中相關的學校營養午餐、交通費、圖書費再加上"},{"start":22205.896,"end":22225.908,"text":"大學文明還補助獎學金,還有3年10個億的預算,這是金門縣政府提供給國立學校地方補助中央的例子。好,謝謝。感謝關心。那你等一下可以繼續再問。我覺得是表達一個感受啦,表達一個感受啦。我發現以這個主席所在的金門縣政府財政太好了。"},{"start":22226.388,"end":22235.734,"text":"好到不需要中央政府啊!那因此可能主席比較不能了解到其他非督的地方的感受啊!好!那你下一次再來問!接著請陳廷飛委員喔!下一次第二輪可以再來關心我們!謝謝!感謝關心金門縣喔!陳廷飛委員!謝謝!陳廷飛!陳廷飛!陳廷飛不在喔!接著我們請賴世寶委員喔!賴世寶!"},{"start":22258.984,"end":22287.447,"text":"謝謝各位我們看到卓榮泰公開說8年來給地方政府多2000億什麼意思?一年就是250億我們的財化法一年要拨2000億下來啊所以卓榮泰的講法更凸顯財化法一定要修啊趕快修啊大家認為提出來最少2000億起跳我的版本3000億啊為什麼不審我向主席表達強烈抗議"},{"start":22288.663,"end":22309.627,"text":"主席人太好了一直被他們這樣欺負還要把自己當官員的還接受他們的巡打怎麼會這樣子欺負你們啊你們欺負他啊對不對欺負陳立正啊欺負陳立正啊你不要講話欸講話這個第二個好啦不要講話啦請尊重發言委員的發言好不好齁時間暫停他一直吵齁時間暫停好"},{"start":22318.765,"end":22323.529,"text":"主席加油啦這個為什麼本委員會的程序問題不先開始然後給會議詢問會議詢問是給其他的委員根本就弄錯了第三個趕快進入亂插你不要講話"},{"start":22350.185,"end":22372.264,"text":"不要讓人民瞧不起不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入主條不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入主條不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入趕快進入主條不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入主條不要讓人民瞧不起趕快進入主條怎麼會是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":22379.807,"end":22401.692,"text":"謝謝賴社保委員吼,我們會繼續進行接著請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄不在接著請吳佩奕委員、吳佩奕在嗎?吳佩奕、吳佩奕、吳佩奕不在喔羅志強委員、羅志強、羅志強、羅志強不在林德福委員、林德福、林德福、林德福不在喔對不起、對不起林德福那麼早就來了"},{"start":22402.612,"end":22412.359,"text":"你欺負林德胡委員他是你們同黨的你還不給他講陳一貞你欺負林德胡林德胡早就來了"},{"start":22419.739,"end":22444.514,"text":"不好意思林委員那大家可以安靜讓林委員發言謝謝主席還有議會各位同仁我想賴總統在擔任台南市市長的時候他也曾經說過說人口持續往北往中部集中沒有達成中央政府當時所強調的為了城鄉平衡的目標"},{"start":22445.635,"end":22470.803,"text":"造成這個現象的主要原因啊主要成因是升格以後只做一半那升格後相關的配套法案包括財政劃分法就是收支劃分法公債法並沒有隨同來通過甚至還向時任行政院院長陳忠來喊話要拿出非過不可的決心現在卻還臉不認帳是忘記還是害怕"},{"start":22475.365,"end":22498.73,"text":"想起來了應該要想起來那我想國民黨阿包括其他政黨我想應該要為民來爭取權益在乎地方的發展主張推動財化法修法來強調資源應該合理的分配縮小城鄉的差距並提升地方政府的自主性其實這很公平客觀以上謝謝"},{"start":22500.995,"end":22524.137,"text":"謝謝林德福委員喔 謝謝接著我們請林月琴委員林月琴 林月琴 林月琴不在喔洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷 洪孟楷 洪孟楷不在邱毅英 邱毅英 邱毅英不在王育敏 王育敏 王育敏不在來 委員 輪到你啦一分鐘啊 謝謝你可以再登記第二輪啦"},{"start":22528.462,"end":22551.477,"text":"主席,歡迎詢問,你看,這不管是國民黨還是民進黨,每一個人一分鐘的時間都不夠,那怎麼辦啊?我們第二輪讓大家講更久一點,然後再第三輪好嗎?好,我們也希望就是說,你的第二輪時間可以給大家比較充分的時間來發揮就是說,是程序而已,又不是在問時值。"},{"start":22554.219,"end":22568.446,"text":"現實裡頭財劃法大家各自的一個看法所以我針對今天我們財劃法修正的一個審查案裡頭我還是一樣主張就是要審慎看待目前我們藍白提出的草案"},{"start":22569.046,"end":22593.206,"text":"所以我們不急著修正為什麼如果南白的草案是這麼好的話我們在現行的法規之下中央對於他們的財政對於中央對於地方的一個支持其實大家已經看到了相當充分那如果我們還要再縮小地方政府間的一個財政的差異我覺得我們應該從下面的幾個觀點來表達我的立場你看主席"},{"start":22598.15,"end":22622.752,"text":"我根本都還沒有講到我的前言我都沒有講完這個是會議詢問不是來發表演說的你對會議有什麼意見就是第二輪以後時間加長我們會加長謝謝這個我回答了還有什麼會議詢問 下一輪紀律我覺得我對於疑似程序就是在你不能講說你是從日本來你比較遠你就是可以這個樣子這跟距離沒有關係謝謝"},{"start":22629.153,"end":22644.034,"text":"下一輪可以講久一點,然後別人講的時候不要插嘴囉接著我們請邱政軍委員邱政軍、邱政軍、邱政軍不在陳金惠委員、陳金惠委員陳金惠委員到了"},{"start":22653.179,"end":22673.576,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝主席跟各位委員都討論得很辛苦所以本席今天只是來補充一段話從過去扁政府、馬政府再到蔡政府現在的執政長都希望地方可以有多一點的財源而且是法定保障的財源也呼籲要修財化法我舉例各位很多委員當時也都還在這個地方"},{"start":22674.216,"end":22701.477,"text":"蔡總統任內首位葛奎林全院長他就任後來立院備詢他不光是表態要修財化法還說他規劃了許多讓地方政府在財化法修法以後財源只增不減的方案而且能讓非直轄市再一步一步的拉起來另外林全院長還曾經分享他2002年回來台灣當陳水扁總統執政的財政部長時就有這樣子的感悟他講過很多句經典的名言"},{"start":22702.838,"end":22730.291,"text":"也相信許多委員當時都曾經聽過這些話也呼應他財化法如果不改國家是沒希望的這是邁向中央財政正軌的最初不加減法原因很簡單他有點出來說地方表面自治但財政權卻握在中央手上地方最大的動機是跟政府要錢政府也沒給地方開源節流的環境變成一種惡性循環根本達不到地方自治的境界時間到了好謝謝"},{"start":22731.951,"end":22741.676,"text":"謝謝陳金輝委員,接著我們請林思銘委員、林思銘、林思銘、林思銘不在、羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才、劉永才不在、陳秀寶委員"},{"start":22752.302,"end":22768.4,"text":"謝謝主席在今天的這個整個從早上參與到現在我真的覺得很疑惑為什麼是一分鐘我節省我自己的時間首先本席這邊要表達其實國家的財政在中央與地方合理的劃分這應該是不分黨派共同應該努力的方向及目標"},{"start":22769.201,"end":22775.266,"text":"但是沒有經過充分的討論要用這樣子的方式我覺得我看到說這麼多的版本差距這麼大而且沒有共識竟然我們還要進入這個審查的程序這麼多國眾兩黨的版本沒有詳細的說明地方所需財源的規模也沒有地方政府提出合理以及建設的這個說明只用這樣子倉促的手法要來跟中央討錢沒有細緻討論地方政府應該負擔能負擔的項目"},{"start":22799.184,"end":22821.198,"text":"那就在這樣的情況之下要求中央政府要釋出財源將會使許多重大的建設規劃困難而且許多跨域的、跨縣市的公共工程、交通工程以及公共建設都是由中央政府統籌、規劃並主導如果因為釋出了財源需要扣減相關經費會使許多重大的建設停擺"},{"start":22824.176,"end":22830.503,"text":"謝謝陳秀白委員我回答您的詢問不是只有藍白立委提出修法你不是要揮詢又不要我回答"},{"start":22831.656,"end":22857.484,"text":"我們還有五立法委員、二院委員都有提出修法版本我們會議詢問結束我們接著進行程序發言程序發言我們按照早上登記的這個順序那個沒有 接著是等一下程序 因為本委會委員李坤正會有說我們程序還沒有跑一下 讓他跑一下然後還有第二輪是等一下請尊重本委會委員程序發言了"},{"start":22859.167,"end":22881.221,"text":"三分鐘,好,然後接著我們請吳秉瑞委員做程序發言吳委員,吳秉瑞,吳秉瑞,吳秉瑞不在李昆城委員沒有,接著還有下一輪早上就講了,不知道去問一下你的同志沒有,你先講啊"},{"start":22883.515,"end":22905.8,"text":"已經練完了,他都練過了,他可以再來登記來李坤城委員,你跟你們同志講一下三分鐘齁,本委員會的齁你幾分鐘啊那個螢幕要改一下,哈囉伊斯聯把那個螢幕改一下好嗎他現在正在改齁,請等一下沒有啊,等他改完我再講啊"},{"start":22911.681,"end":22912.902,"text":"等一下第二輪的會議詢問我希望能夠比照程序發言三分鐘好不好主席可以嗎"},{"start":22937.987,"end":22948.262,"text":"我會支持的你是主席啊 你知道怎麼投票就好了啊可以可以 還有第四輪、第五輪大家繼續可以越來越久"},{"start":22951.691,"end":22957.153,"text":"等下 這個算是會議詢問 我在程序發言中的會議詢問啊我是程序發言中的會議詢問啊 所以還是從3分鐘開始啊不會補你好不好"},{"start":22969.916,"end":22996.116,"text":"這早上我們在講就是說現在禮拜三各個縣市的這個財政局局長以上的人要來因為等一下你禮拜三可能就會進入開始進入主條討論的我們就要開始來問啊那各個縣市他拿到這麼多的這個統籌分配款之後要做什麼大家提出個計畫出來嘛你提不出一個計畫出來我就給你這個4千多億那到底各個縣市要做什麼"},{"start":22996.636,"end":23019.125,"text":"那我就要問阿,跟早上一樣阿,這新北市財政局局長說這個臺北拿了3%所謂的這一個精順的條款他說沒有關係,侯友宜是老大哥,這不是侯友宜說了算這是為了新北市的市民,我有超過400萬的新北市市民嘛所以今天如果按照國民黨的版本說有3%精順條款,臺北市已經這麼有錢了"},{"start":23025.207,"end":23048.353,"text":"這還要再固定給他們3%那新北市應該要更多啊 對不對第二個按照這個財政紀律法這個賴思寶委員剛剛有在這邊剛剛早上也有委員提到這個按照這個財政的紀律法第5條中政府各級的機關、立法委員所提的法律案大幅增加政府的稅出或是減少稅率"},{"start":23048.993,"end":23063.974,"text":"要先具體明確指出彌補資金的來源在哪裡?我們現在看不到啊!現在看不到就是說按照這個國民黨版本的這個財務法那你現在從中央挖走了這個4000多那請問一下少了這麼多錢請問一下"},{"start":23067.238,"end":23086.037,"text":"彌補資金的來源在哪裡?因為中共少了這麼多錢啊,國防也都受到影響啊那第7條來看,各級政府還有立法機關定定或修正法律、法規或自治法規的時候不得併定固定經費的額度或比例保障"},{"start":23086.698,"end":23109.274,"text":"可是按照目前國民黨的版本有啊就是說這個統籌分配款一般性的分配款要以這個今年的要以今年的這個版本為例那如果明年修過之後明年的這個版本後年後年那個版本要以2023年的為例那這就是訂定了一定的比例啊這個違反財政紀律法嘛還要說你要從這個撥了這個4000多億然後給這個地方你說要補我時間啊"},{"start":23115.356,"end":23136.395,"text":"那這也違反這個財政紀律法的第7條啊因為你不能訂定固定的經費的比例啊那現在這個法條財政紀律法我們自己是財政委員會欸我們自己是財政委員會然後呢你要修了這個財化法結果都違背了財政紀律法的第5條跟第7條請問一下這不是互相矛盾嗎"},{"start":23137.136,"end":23161.96,"text":"那所以呢我是認為啊如果你真的要做這個財務法的這個修改那請按照我們財政紀律法我們第五條、第七條都說得很清楚你如果說稅率減少了那問一下那你的財源的彌補在哪裡而且呢你也不能訂定一定比例的這一個固定的經費或是說比例的這個保障這個都違反了這個財政紀律法那所以我們禮拜三"},{"start":23165.482,"end":23183.996,"text":"如果真的要來討論的話,我們要先用這個財務法人在修的時候有沒有違反這個財政紀律法,先來做個討論謝謝李坤城委員那剛剛您說有關新北的希望您趕快提案然後各地有關這個程序問題我沒評論我是回答你你不是說你是程序委員中的會議我是說如果新北市財政局局長來我要問他們"},{"start":23190.02,"end":23214.901,"text":"為什麼說他割肉然後侯友宜也說沒關係只因為他是老大哥奧選總統他是老大哥我是為了我們新北市市民的400萬人來著想啊對、對、對那你有沒有提案有沒有你有什麼關係我不知道為什麼你只願意說不願意做來接著你剛剛說的我又回答你另外一個各地財政署現在有可行嘛那為什麼要按照你講的各地為什麼要按照你講的什麼叫做"},{"start":23215.781,"end":23242.536,"text":"各地財政局的局長要不要來呢不是我們可以強迫我們大家也要尊重地方自治所謂地方自治宣誓如果有的局長要來我們非常尊重縣市長要來更好但是如果有的財政委員財政局長不來那沒有辦法第三個第三個"},{"start":23244.406,"end":23262.557,"text":"你的程序,程序裡頭,來他說政府收財政紀律法的部分這個我們請財政部,財政部有聽到委員的說法請你尊重我,我當主席講得不好,我也聽你講話啦,請你尊重我我跟你們很客氣喔"},{"start":23263.918,"end":23279.967,"text":"我比你們還客氣喔!現在是我要回答你的問題!請你尊重我!我是主席喔!請你尊重我!我也請你講話嗎?我主席也要尊重我的發言啊!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我只會說不會做!我尊重地方自治!"},{"start":23290.493,"end":23305.38,"text":"各地的財政局長要不要來請尊重各地的局長我們沒有辦法強制然後呢政府當主席沒有錢講話你就閉嘴因為你沒有發言地位主席還沒有錢講話請遵守秩序"},{"start":23307.081,"end":23317.027,"text":"請大家回座好嗎?尊守秩序好嗎?主席沒有錢你講話不要破壞會長秩序不要破壞會長秩序請紅三案委員回座好嗎?請大家回座回座來喔接著"},{"start":23332.706,"end":23355.893,"text":"接著有關這個李昆城委員說的齁這個有關政府財政紀律法收入減少的問題齁這個就是中央如果減少地方增加就是把錢從上口袋放到下口袋的問題齁好 謝謝李昆城委員喔下一位喔賴慧媛委員喔"},{"start":23357.782,"end":23359.086,"text":"接著請那一位委員"},{"start":23360.987,"end":23365.09,"text":"主席,主席,主席,主席,主席,主席,主席,主席"},{"start":23391.727,"end":23416.222,"text":"你這邊可以啊?五立法委員啊?五立法委員請發言啊?立法院他不發言啊?他不發言?立法院?不用不用,你請他下去啊?立法院?這邊也可以啦?這邊也可以發?請發言?可以?他不講啊?你要講嗎?"},{"start":23417.711,"end":23435.344,"text":"內委上去。內委員你要發言嗎?你要發言嗎?那請發言啊。你要這邊還是這邊?你就要發言啊?可以可以。今天既然是程序而已,哪邊都可以發言。好。你要去那邊也可以。內委員要不要發言?要發言就過去發言啊。"},{"start":23442.993,"end":23466.651,"text":"這個各地的財政局要來我沒有辦法決定你不提案是你的事情他要不要?不是啦,賴委員要不要發言啊?我再唸三次,賴委員如果你不發言我們就下一位囉賴委員你上去請他上去啊上去就有聲音啊請他上去你先上去啊賴委員委員賴委員委員發不發言?"},{"start":23473.281,"end":23492.571,"text":"現在如果三次他不發言我們就下一位了賴慧元委員賴慧元要發言請上去賴慧元第二次賴慧元委員第三次不發言好下一位武力華委員第一次五位委員你可以再登記還有第三輪"},{"start":23494.304,"end":23516.01,"text":"五立法委員發發言他不下來你們黨團決定怎麼辦你不下來已經影響了賴委員的權利喔你會不會下去五立法委員發發言他可以再登記沒關係我再讓他登記好嗎請他回座呢他不回座我有辦法五立法委員發發言你要不要發言他不發言你不上去發言喔"},{"start":23524.966,"end":23552.755,"text":"你不發言嗎?你要不要下來?你要不要下來?你已經沒有發言地位,已經別人發言了,輪到別人了。你們黨團處不處理?你就不要亂評論嘛,今天就不會造成結果嘛。你主席沒有處理好,結果造成...吳立法委員發不發言?那你上去好嗎?你上去。你上去講。你要不要上去?你不講我們就下一位囉。好,吳立法委員那不然就下一位囉。"},{"start":23555.776,"end":23580.031,"text":"李昆澤委員請你下來講好嗎?請你不要把私人的恩怨一直帶過來請你下來講現在程序輪到武力法委員武力法委員不發言的話我們就下一位囉R1案3次武力法委員武力法委員武力法委員不上去好下一位李燕秀委員"},{"start":23581.707,"end":23585.816,"text":"李燕秀委員在嗎?李燕秀不在王世堅委員"},{"start":23587.541,"end":23611.89,"text":"王思堅委員,王思堅在哪裡?王思堅不在齁來,賴世保委員,換賴世保委員,賴世保委員換賴世保委員,前面的人都跳三次不上去了要再登記沒關係,要可以繼續登記來,想發言剛剛跳過的可以再繼續登記齁來,賴委員你在那邊發言,可以到那邊齁,可以可以都可以"},{"start":23614.38,"end":23641.866,"text":"可以登記!可以繼續登記!可以繼續登記!不要霸佔主席發言台!有嗎?好!各位先進!不要吵啦!大家都知道民眾黨團的用意大家都很清楚嘛!就是癱瘓財務委會、杯葛財劃華、時髦造之心、路人皆知啊!"},{"start":23642.779,"end":23664.9,"text":"大大小小都知道嘛!不必借題花花啦!立法院這裡不是你嗆我,我嗆你,還要叫人家道歉,是要道什麼歉啊?對不對?嗆來嗆去啊!你不是有意義跟他們嗆陳立正?陳立正叫你道歉,有文沒文啊!大家都知道嘛!我沒有了解,還道什麼歉?對不對?要嗆來嗆去啊!"},{"start":23672.865,"end":23683.752,"text":"我再講話你尊重我們好不好!你尊重我們啦!好啦!好啦!好啦!好啦!整個主席啊!"},{"start":23685.458,"end":23694.146,"text":"我用主...用委員們的要求啦齁!陳主席盡量少給他們評論啦!這個我同意啦齁!這個我同意啦齁!所以...主席...主席會約束啦齁!對!為什麼說..."},{"start":23705.557,"end":23727.376,"text":"這個主席被你們欺誤啊因為我們財委會是程序問題為什麼我們不先開始然後由那個貴本委會的一個會議詢問開始這個就是主席偏心啊主席被你們欺誤啊簡單就是這樣啊再來我們看啊"},{"start":23728.618,"end":23749.545,"text":"主席已經排了公平會,我們也開了兩場公平會財政局長都來過,不是沒有來過地方首長有的也來啦地方的意見都有,然後財政部長你去問他找地方政府開了幾次會所以老實講就很簡單,就是因為卓榮泰下令"},{"start":23750.99,"end":23770.934,"text":"不要這個財劃法要杯葛財劃法要實質的把中華民國的憲政體制變成一個道道地地的皇帝制那就是中央集權又集錢我再強調一遍卓榮泰說了國會說八年來給了2000億一年只給250億我的版本一年就是要丟出來3000億啦"},{"start":23780.269,"end":23782.092,"text":"現在國民黨黨的版本也就3200億啊民眾黨也是3200億啊所以更加的凸顯這個草案法非修不可"},{"start":23789.813,"end":23817.451,"text":"至於有人在講說哎呀什麼條款什麼條款省了又再來組條現在講就是主席宅心仁厚變成讓各位啊予取予求一直配合你們來拖一直拖一直拖趕快進入組條趕快進入組條這個否則台灣人民會笑我們的立法院特別財政委員會說這個財政委員會是無農的"},{"start":23823.285,"end":23830.539,"text":"謝謝賴司法委員我們現在都還在進行程序還沒有進入主條大家稍安勿躁接著我們請王洪威委員"},{"start":23832.028,"end":23852.686,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席非常辛苦從今天早上到現在大家看得非常清楚民進黨黨團今天出動了非常多位的立委來關心財劃法事實上早上我就跟大家報告財劃法在我們財委會已經歷次了兩次的"},{"start":23853.527,"end":23859.552,"text":"公聽會而且大家一直所引述的地方的意見事實上在6月5號的時候我們幾乎本委的委員都不發言我們把所有的時間留給地方的財主單位"},{"start":23870.041,"end":23885.391,"text":"那麼你們可以到網路上去看所有的地方的財組單位都非常支持要修正財劃法所以我想我們尤其是區域的立委以我們現在大家所討論的版本可能每一個它的大餅畫的方式不一樣"},{"start":23892.876,"end":23909.42,"text":"但是幾乎都是要反映地方的財政自主的比例應該要提高那麼其實包含在高雄跟在台南市那天發言也是如此甚至高雄市市長陳其邁之前還鄭重拜託過海院長"},{"start":23914.901,"end":23917.424,"text":"希望韓院長能夠推動在立法院財劃法能夠修正所以我們在這一次的修正裡面其實討論的程序是相當完備的我剛才講"},{"start":23930.198,"end":23938.948,"text":"開了兩次的公聽會我當然非常遺憾在座很多的委員在之前不聞不問從來沒有關心過但是今天或許在民進黨團的"},{"start":23944.974,"end":23966.92,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23967.06,"end":23987.787,"text":"你不要回答我的問題。然後呢,隔兩秒鐘之後,主席你回答我的問題。我覺得對主席來講啊,到底回不回答都是一個很難的一個抉擇。那麼我希望的是,我希望的是,我們今天針對...你看來了吧?來了吧?當我在...當...李昆城,你在程序發言的時候,我有插你的嘴嗎?"},{"start":23996.83,"end":23998.492,"text":"我又插你的嘴嗎?你看,沒有風度!所以,我在這邊跟你講,在今天,我們民眾黨黨團不管是區議委員"},{"start":24012.603,"end":24016.564,"text":"或者根本不是本委委員或者過去也沒有關心過但是大家都給你們充分的時間發言我們也充分的尊重所以也請大家能夠尊重主席能夠尊重議事規則不要在那邊只是想要用拖延戰術這個不是真正反映地方政府的民意我再講一次6月5號"},{"start":24042.552,"end":24068.769,"text":"的宮廷會各縣市政府意見在網路上清清楚楚。非常地清楚。好不好?謝謝王後輝與。好,謝謝請林德福委員,因為剛剛李坤貞委員插嘴,所以大家維持秩序,不要插嘴,讓每個人都可以講。你想別人也不插嘴。"},{"start":24076.363,"end":24095.058,"text":"拜託 已經換人了齁要再插嘴了齁 要講來登記齁要講人來登記齁謝謝主席 我想各位同仁 不關草野啦其實齁 我們財務法已經25年都沒有修了"},{"start":24096.018,"end":24116.815,"text":"那尤其過去民進黨在選舉期間也多次做過承諾要改革然而在執政後選擇無視這項關乎地方財政和發展的重大法案其實這個沒有草野之分那2012年當時民進黨的主席蘇貞昌也召集民進黨各縣市的首長"},{"start":24118.757,"end":24121.319,"text":"呼籲將財劃法列為優先審查的法案,強調中央與地方應該平等協商、擴大財源、縮小城鄉的差距。像這些誠心呼籲,如今卻消失殆盡。"},{"start":24137.611,"end":24156.483,"text":"然而卓院長競爭現行的財劃法就是最好的版本這種背離改革承諾的自打臉的行為徹底來踐踏了選民的信任,證明民進黨只顧權利跟利益"},{"start":24159.265,"end":24178.888,"text":"民進黨執政8年無視地方財政的困境只鞏固中央財政的控制導致資源分配失衡損害全國人民的利益卻始終不推動財化法的修訂完全背離了當初的這種承諾"},{"start":24180.129,"end":24206.694,"text":"那其實國民黨堅持推動財化法的修法主張制度化財化法的規定依據這個需求合理分配來提升各地方這個政府的財政自主性解決區域發展的不平均的這些問題那呼籲賴總統跟民進黨要拿出誠信正視人民的需求別再讓"},{"start":24207.774,"end":24213.922,"text":"那變成雙重標準,成為一個常態啊因為齁,財劃法自1999年到現在已經25年沒有修訂,也影響地方發展重大"},{"start":24221.448,"end":24243.707,"text":"而這個發展的重大真的是影響很大重點是慈霞市由北高變成六都已經有10多年了那許多規範早已不符合實務那未歡欣而賴總統先前也多次強調財化法一定要修正但是擔任行政院長到副總統後卻望光光"},{"start":24245.209,"end":24264.93,"text":"那民進黨一卡再卡就是不給修法那其實這次的主張是為了就是能夠讓地方政府爭取能夠更公平帶給我們各縣市的居民有更多生活上便利跟他的福利反倒是目前民進黨"},{"start":24266.966,"end":24274.191,"text":"做一套、說一套讓人看了很傻眼我希望說大家針對問題、探討問題怎麼去解決問題以上謝謝主席"},{"start":24296.291,"end":24320.985,"text":"各位同仁大家好早上大家一直在爭論的是程序上的問題為什麼停留在程序的問題道理非常的簡單在之前所討論過的公聽會也好或者是之前的大體討論也好大家都有一個最起碼的共識也就是說今天討論財法法不是單純一個法案的問題"},{"start":24321.986,"end":24337.562,"text":"他牽扯到了地制法、地方制度法、牽扯到了公債法、牽扯到地方稅法通則相關的地方財政諸多的問題都應該要拿出來討論這也是兩個禮拜之前陳育貞召委所下的一個結論"},{"start":24338.743,"end":24361.615,"text":"但是就在兩個禮拜之前的討論完之後呢他說還可以暢所欲言的情況底下卻接到朱立倫主席說要趕快將這個法案送出委員會的政治命令何以如此財政委員會已經接受國民黨黨主席的指揮這一點我們完全無法接受這是第一第二剛剛在談說公聽會兩次夠不夠我跟大家講絕對不夠"},{"start":24365.777,"end":24367.098,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":24383.907,"end":24401.059,"text":"財政收支劃分法這一部法令它修法的正當性而是呢它修法的這個程序跟內容當中要有更多的討論兩次的公聽會都是什麼都只有財政收支劃分法的單一法令的觀點"},{"start":24402.66,"end":24430.016,"text":"從來沒有從地方制度法的角度來做切入這在兩次的公聽會當中本席都有慎重的發言本席都要求財政委員會要持續開而本委員會的召委也同意要再開結果也沒有開就馬上進入討論等了大體討論說要繼續討論也沒有就馬上要進入竹條這顯然是操之過急我可以真的斷論的說負責任的講"},{"start":24432.157,"end":24438.383,"text":"國民黨的財政委員會是史上最爛的版本啊!國民黨的財政委員會是史上最違法亂七的版本!為什麼?因為國民黨的版本當中居然把中央的錢拿掉5747億後來隔沒多久又打了誤則說可以變3208億可是如果對照明年的預算規模"},{"start":24455.84,"end":24461.907,"text":"國民黨所謂的這個73筆變成64筆會變成6612億各位你們試想整個中央政府總預算也不過是3兆1325億而已這3兆1225億當中有其中一兆要拿給地方政府"},{"start":24476.181,"end":24483.463,"text":"其中1.8兆是屬於中央的法定支出。我問你嘛,剩下的6千多億你要怎麼來?錢根本不夠。好,可以舉債嗎?可以。舉債多少?15%夠不夠?當然也不夠。所以呢,根本是凱中央的錢,請地方的課,結果還要叫中央去舉債。這何來的財政紀律啊?"},{"start":24501.807,"end":24530.163,"text":"完全沒有財政紀律的財政收支劃分法就是國民黨最大的版本啦好 謝謝郭國文委員這個我想財政部有關地方稅法通則財政紀律法公債法還有這個內政部我們上次委員會提過很多次地方製度法趕快送過來修正我們這個財政稅法修訂在前面你們要趕快跟上委員會的委員會都因應其判各位官員都要注意"},{"start":24530.743,"end":24556.145,"text":"已經講很多次了,你們動作要快一點喔好,各國委員委員,我們第一輪的程序委員、程序發言發言完畢有登記第二輪的齁?好,你要登記第二輪的可以過來登記我們本委員會齁?好,我們第二輪的第二輪我們現在開始先請,我是吳立華嗎?李坤誠,交換是不是?OK,好那第二輪程序委員也是三分鐘,請李坤誠委員齁?謝謝"},{"start":24567.708,"end":24568.989,"text":"議委員會是本委員會的齁主席我在早上已經跟你談過了所以這個委員的發言你不要去做評論"},{"start":24579.994,"end":24601.96,"text":"那我剛剛在發言之後,那你竟然說你要修,你要修《財政收支劃分法》,你要提案啊,不能只說不做啊。什麼叫做只說不做?你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?不用,你不用回答。你這樣子在霸凌我嗎?你沒有資格去評論其他的委員,說你這是只說不做。同樣的啊,那我可以這樣子評斷你嗎?"},{"start":24603.34,"end":24623.948,"text":"你金門的陳玉正的委員只說不做!只說不做!只說不做!可以這樣評論你嗎?我不會這樣子評論你!因為我覺得彼此委員要互相的尊重所以請主席在我們講完話之後不要再做任何的評論"},{"start":24625.248,"end":24654.191,"text":"那今天也都要提到說這個財化法那財化法齁 如果按照國民黨的版本來看國民黨的版本這個修完這個財化法之後的自有財源啊就六度來講只有台北市修法之後自有財源佔稅數的比率百分之一百零八百分之一百零八 超過了修法之後的自有財源就是自籌的加上中央的補助的"},{"start":24655.012,"end":24678.721,"text":"六都裡面只有台北市是108%所以我說啦我們新北的97%那為什麼我們新北的人口數比台北這麼多那就是因為台北有一個3%的精選條款在裡面讓台北的這個如果按照國民黨版本修完之後他們的自有財源是108%超過了破百了"},{"start":24683.868,"end":24703.479,"text":"那請問一下臺北市多出來這些錢要做什麼?蔣萬有想到了嗎?蔣萬有想到要做什麼嗎?我相信他蔣萬是沒有啦蔣萬基本上是一個不做不錯的人他只要不做事帥帥的臉龐就可以去吸引選票了所以基本上你說你要給"},{"start":24705.055,"end":24727.62,"text":"給台北市給了這麼多錢那請問一下台北市要做什麼我相信台北市沒有想到但是我們新北咧那新北為什麼我們的分配的我們的自有的財源的比例才97%所以這問題是很多啊我只舉這個修法之後自有財源的比例那更不用說我們中央政府的這一個法定的義務支出"},{"start":24728.3,"end":24748.875,"text":"有一兆八千億你這一兆八千億是沒有辦法去刪減的因為有很多的各機關的人事費、社會保險支出還有對公立學校的補助等等但是這個法定你不能去削減它那在哪些計畫會受到影響有一些機關的專項計畫就會受到影響那我講最基本的國防的經費國防經費就會受到影響"},{"start":24755.76,"end":24777.946,"text":"國防基本受到影響的高達2900多億那更不用說還有少子女化的政策還有我們有關於治安的維護等等還有這個中央擴大租金補貼、興辦社宅等等這些都是年輕人需要的但是因為你這樣子修了之後必須迫使中央在這些專案的計劃裡面迫使他要計劃"},{"start":24779.426,"end":24801.396,"text":"他的經費必須要縮減。那請問一下,國防經費被縮減之後,請問是爽到誰?爽到誰?爽到中國啊!就爽到中國嘛!啊所以他們現在就看啊,現在就看說台灣的這個台灣財務法到底要怎麼修?而且你們很矛盾的是說,明年度的中央...這個李昆仲偉已經超過了那個,要第三輪嗎?"},{"start":24803.737,"end":24811.46,"text":"謝謝委員已經超過三分鐘五分鐘六分鐘了接著請吳立華委員吳立華委員謝謝謝謝主席我序名在先財劃法我有提案版本"},{"start":24833.123,"end":24853.526,"text":"第三條的條文修正那為什麼我要特別講這一段因為我質詢這一題啊將近四年始終得到的回應就是告訴我說要連同地制法、公債法一併的來修才能夠處理"},{"start":24855.123,"end":24874.134,"text":"所以我也是很希望啊,地制法還有公債法甚至是未來我們可能還會談到並修財政紀律法等等很多的作用法所以我在這邊要特別的說明那接下來我有一個小小的請求"},{"start":24875.094,"end":24890.082,"text":"我説至少在財劃法邀請各縣市的時候應該把我們這六都的園區要找過來啊因為我們要對抗的是縣市政府啊"},{"start":24890.982,"end":24894.525,"text":"那你找縣市政府來講他當然不會為這些園區講話啊所以我也還在等啊沒有啊所以我要再講一次2010年修財化法、地治法的時候把這些合併的園鄉讓他們失去了公法人地位"},{"start":24911.457,"end":24940.06,"text":"但是我們修法的疏漏在2014年的時候竟然恢復了公法人地位卻沒有恢復他們獨立的財政收支系統這是很嚴重的錯誤所以我一定要講要支持那另外我要再講很多地方縣市我有去問我想每個地方政府他們的財主單位也不是傻瓜"},{"start":24941.121,"end":24955.075,"text":"他們很多人告訴我說,算一算,划不來,討不到便宜,因為多年前我們在處理財劃法的時候,就是希望中央地方通力合作。"},{"start":24956.195,"end":24982.844,"text":"我們也看到這8年來長短期的負債可以說逐年的下降而我們的地方補助款一般性的補助款或者是各部會的這些計劃性補助款是逐年的上升那很多人其實是非常的仰賴中央的一個補助而不是很擔心說未來左支右促"},{"start":24983.924,"end":25008.333,"text":"窮於應付我想這個是很多人的疑慮所以未來我們是不是我舉一個簡單的例子像我們原住民現在的文建站9年前一年不到1億現在是一年13億他們就問如果這個財劃法以後不知道變成什麼樣中央會不會沒錢來做這些了"},{"start":25009.437,"end":25026.566,"text":"又或者像我們很多的法令我們都看得到啊像是就業服務法22年前定了一個原住民人口2萬人以上要設立公立的就業服務中心各縣市政府22年來沒有一個願意啊最後還不是拜託勞動部"},{"start":25028.547,"end":25028.747,"text":"接著請代會員委員"},{"start":25058.978,"end":25061.621,"text":"委員資料提供一下,6組,所有的好,謝謝主席"},{"start":25079.089,"end":25092.935,"text":"好 謝謝主席在這裡要先給主席做一個請求也做一個拜託希望本主席程序還原後請你不要做評論可以嗎"},{"start":25096.786,"end":25097.306,"text":"國民黨委員批評民進黨政府"},{"start":25120.521,"end":25125.325,"text":"就是在整個程序的一個過程裡頭就是財劃法的一個過程裡頭我們一直在擋擋擋為什麼會擋呢當然就是說這個財劃法我們也當然大家都知道經過5次的一個修法他已經面臨到很大很大的一個問題大家知道這一個"},{"start":25142.017,"end":25159.275,"text":"法有沒有辦法修?當然是沒有辦法修。如果有辦法修的話為什麼要拖這麼長的一個時間?那這個也特別特別就是說針對今天財化法的修正審查案裡頭我還是主張我們應該要認真的去看待"},{"start":25159.875,"end":25177.569,"text":"就是我們要把每一個就是不管是國民黨還是民眾黨他們所提出來的一個草案我們建議不急於修正然後在現行的法規之下中央跟地方的一個財政的一個分配那我們必須要充分的一個討論這個討論的過程裡頭我們非常敬重賴斯堡委員賴斯堡委員他其實在那個"},{"start":25187.229,"end":25213.185,"text":"之前提出財政紀律法那在第五條他就有規定他說立法委員所提出的一個法例案大幅增加政府的一個稅出或是減少那個稅入都應該要先具體並且指明彌補資金的一個來源但是這一次在草案增加中央支出給地方多達4千多億我們並沒有就是怎麼說明說要彌補"},{"start":25214.225,"end":25241.273,"text":"然後反之如果說從中央的一個稅入來看的話我們也可以說減少了地方應該交給中央的錢也就是減少了稅入那這第7條那我們也規定立法機關制定或修正法案的時候不得增加固定的一個比例的保障但是這一次的修正直接調整了財劃法在中央與地方的一個分配地方稅的一個比例"},{"start":25242.473,"end":25260.139,"text":"並且增加了地方可以拿到的一個固定的比例他就是違反了這一條的一個規定並且還直接規定台北市可以拿到3%這就是所謂那個李昆城講的這個金孫3%條款我知道"},{"start":25260.899,"end":25288.165,"text":"我在這裡也再跟大家做充分的說明台北市的3%它被保留國民黨黨團提案的第16條之一規定普通普通統籌分配稅款的分配方式的第5條他說建議台北市身為所都可以保留可提供的分配款項3%給台北市但是現行的法規就是我們在憲法裡頭並沒有明定首都"},{"start":25289.446,"end":25295.993,"text":"這個首都就是我們在講的,那因此這一條根本就是不能實施。"},{"start":25316.82,"end":25318.561,"text":"再次謝謝主席在今天給我們不同黨派甚至不管是本委或者外委都有這個充分的說明的時間那我想要回應一下剛才有一些真的是非常匪夷所思而且事實上有誤導的一些觀點"},{"start":25336.812,"end":25354.239,"text":"比如說郭國文委員他算是我們財委會之聲的委員他說今天啊國民黨的版本是史上最爛的財化法版本那麼我們本來大家就是集思廣益、精益求精我們從上個會期我們就說請財政部能夠提出相對版本"},{"start":25360.982,"end":25365.946,"text":"或者說如果民進黨團覺得我們現在國民黨團或者國民黨籍的委員提的版本不好你們也可以提你們的相對版本啊也讓我們比碰一下嘛到底怎麼樣是比較好我們是史上最爛你們史上最佳但是問題就是冷壓沒有拿出任何版本"},{"start":25386.963,"end":25410.592,"text":"那第二點就是剛才也有好多位民進黨的委員都特別提到財政紀律法也提到財政紀律法當年是由賴思寶委員提案修正的所以我想某一個程度賴思寶委員也該算是財政紀律之父吧 對不對剛才大家都很肯定他當時是修財政紀律法以他對財政紀律法之賢熟"},{"start":25415.094,"end":25431.544,"text":"那他也支持我們現在此時此刻應該去檢討修正財劃法所以拿財政紀律法當作黨鍵牌事實上是不倫不類不倫不類另外我也覺得很奇怪按照"},{"start":25437.268,"end":25441.81,"text":"民進黨同仁所說的口中所說的史上最爛的版本這個版本每一個直轄市在修法之後都可以增加200億以上每一個直轄市都能夠增加200億以上所以我就很納悶了為什麼我們這些新北或者我們高雄的委員或者台南的委員要如此抗拒"},{"start":25465.66,"end":25484.505,"text":"如果你今天所處的縣市以我台北市來講我可以增加200億以上我當然歡迎啊我當然舉雙手歡迎啊這會使得我們的地方財政更加健全我們的地方財政的自主率更加的一個健康"},{"start":25485.666,"end":25495.109,"text":"有何不可為什麼要拒這樣的一個修法於千里之外我真的覺得很奇怪如果你真的了解如果你有認真的去看這個版本每一個直轄市增加200億元以上"},{"start":25502.651,"end":25509.475,"text":"但是大家講說 哎呀 直轄市一位怎麼辦呢?也跟大家報告 統籌分配款項的67%也按人口數的比例去分配給22個縣市所以 這次國民黨團所提出來的修法版本 非常重要的一個原則"},{"start":25523.422,"end":25547.713,"text":"就是每一個縣市不分藍綠不分黨派執政的縣市所有的統籌款通通可以增加所有財政自主的比例通通可以增加而縣市能夠自主而不是養中央鼻息的這些資源通通可以增加"},{"start":25548.593,"end":25574.116,"text":"我想請問一下我們坐在這邊我們不是有很多都是各縣市的選民選出來的嗎?對不對?所以在這樣的狀況如果請我們所有民進黨的委員你們有意見的話好好用功念一下這個版本你們就知道所有縣市的分配款通通可以增加以上"},{"start":25575.097,"end":25593.151,"text":"好 謝謝王洪威委員的確這個財政紀律法那一條是說減少或增加但是中央跟地方的這個減少增加都是同樣一個政府只是錢從上一口袋拿到下一口袋並沒有真正減少或增加好 接著我們請林德福委員 謝謝"},{"start":25606.254,"end":25626.175,"text":"謝謝主席我想國民黨主張修正制的財劃法以解決地方財政的困境透過合理的分配財源來提升地方的自主性那民進黨當然只顧了政治的利益"},{"start":25627.176,"end":25642.526,"text":"沒有無視地方的發展曾在選舉期間高呼修法上台後不但是沒有作為甚至於還說現在的現行的法案已經是最好的版本"},{"start":25643.626,"end":25665.942,"text":"換句話說,維持現在,它不但可以漲權,又可以漲錢,所以說是最好的版本。針對地方財政的困境,我想國民黨提出解決的垂直這個方面,現行財劃法中,中央與地方的稅收比例差不多7比3,"},{"start":25667.464,"end":25689.183,"text":"我們應該要調高地方的所得稅、營業稅以及貨物稅等方式將中央跟地方的稅收比調整6比4其實在整個水平方面我們為了平衡城鄉的發展"},{"start":25690.344,"end":25710.121,"text":"國民黨將會根據重農業、觀光、偏鄉、離島以及工業產值高的原則來增加資源分配的比例根據各縣市已經同意的標準"},{"start":25710.842,"end":25726.655,"text":"如企業營業額、財產稅、輝稅的收入以及整個土地的面積、人口數和農業以及工業的就業人口等等來進行"},{"start":25730.27,"end":25745.601,"text":"公平的資源的一個分配我認為這是很重要那為了我們要平衡整個城鄉的發展特別來加重整個離島地區的土地和人口的比例並以平均"},{"start":25746.522,"end":25761.481,"text":"的收入低的這些農業縣市作為優先分配的對象以確保各地財源指針不減而且補助款不低於修法前的預算"},{"start":25762.242,"end":25788.391,"text":"我認為這個是很重要的一環因為為什麼要修財劃法當然很多地方各縣市他們確實這25年來他們都在較窮那你中央當然這些比較窮的縣市應該多給予他們有一些分配的比例讓他們能夠自主來發展地方以上謝謝"},{"start":25790.394,"end":25805.44,"text":"非常謝謝林德福委員謝謝接著我們請郭國文委員郭國文、郭國文、郭國文、郭國文不在我們第二輪的程序委員發言程序發言就結束了那有沒有要再登記第三輪的程序發言"},{"start":25807.281,"end":25831.879,"text":"沒有,等一下還有會議詢問,等一下,有嗎?沒有齁?我已經練過了,沒有,你可以做會議詢問齁?接著我們就進行第二輪的會議詢問齁?也是3分鐘,已經練過3次的尊重,不過在登記可以發言,沒有嗎?來?對,第三輪,沒有,會議詢問,會議詢問,來?現在就第二輪的會議詢問,就是外委員會可以開始來發言喔?來,哪一位先?"},{"start":25835.012,"end":25835.112,"text":"第二輪會議詢問"},{"start":25862.913,"end":25890.412,"text":"現在主席主席我想剛剛在上一次的這個程序發言當中本席就慎重的提醒我的問題是說為何我們在委員會在慎重的每一次的討論當中本席可以說是無語不語不論是公聽會、委員會任何討論到財政委員會的過程當我們都一再的強調與呼籲財政收支劃分法固然重要"},{"start":25891.332,"end":25913.42,"text":"但是呢你若提出一個癱瘓中央而且呢讓整個地方跟財政亂了套的一個法案其實是非常不足取的所以為什麼我們一直在強調它不是一個單純的財政收支劃分法的內容而已而是牽扯到事權以及呢這個財權"},{"start":25915.541,"end":25943.315,"text":"更何況事權跟財權之外還有一個認人的空間各位都知道在地方上有許許多多的緣兒編制以警察的人類來說雖有8萬之多但實際上編制卻只有6萬出頭而已為什麼會有如此的差距?原因在哪裡?也牽扯到中央跟地方相互偽責的結果而造成這樣的情勢為什麼?"},{"start":25944.716,"end":25958.54,"text":"因為大家都不想要承擔責任這也就是為什麼我們討論到財權的時候我們會強調事權那為什麼呢在去年的部分地方政府的這個稅計稅計甚於會高達642億為什麼"},{"start":25963.482,"end":25970.23,"text":"原因就是地方政府執行能力有問題執行能力有問題或許有時候不是能力的問題或許有時候是人力的問題總而言之就是財務的負擔越來越少"},{"start":25978.379,"end":26004.544,"text":"至於財政的能力相對提高財政的能力提高因此有所謂的財政剩餘的結果而明明已經這幾年的趨勢連續5年都有財政剩餘的情況底下也沒有差短的情況底下為何要此時此刻急於修改這個財政收支劃分法門本席呀完全沒有辦法理解背後的理性的原因啦我這邊慎重呼籲國民黨"},{"start":26006.764,"end":26024.254,"text":"一定要懸崖勒馬不要再註下歷史的大錯在11月25號當中大法官的會議解釋職權行司法幾乎有高達25項的違憲就告訴你們不要以多數想要轉化成是真理"},{"start":26025.094,"end":26046.529,"text":"多數未必是真理的化身多數可能是悲劇的開始我要再跟陳委員講你現在高居這個召委的位置不代表你有權力有正當性可以霸凌每個委員的評論我待會講完之後請你不要再評論本席的言論我實在非常無法接受國民黨的版本會讓整個國家體制亂了分寸謝謝"},{"start":26050.517,"end":26063.441,"text":"好 謝謝郭國榮委員 謝謝剛剛針對這個武立法委員所提出的這一個就是我們就財務法要修正要邀請下面的這個行政機關新北市的烏來區公所、桃園市的復興區公所"},{"start":26068.204,"end":26083.875,"text":"台中市的和平區公所、高雄市的茂林區公所、高雄市的桃園區公所、高雄市的納瑪夏區公所我們都發邀請,當然我們還是尊重他們,如果熟悉也看他們要不要來我們在邀請縣市的時候我們寫在裡頭邀請他們,然後據我所知這個"},{"start":26088.979,"end":26112.234,"text":"大法官釋憲從來沒有對針對上一次的立法院執權行使法說明說什麼程序有問題或是沒有討論沒有名譽我是在講我自己的發言沒有在評論任何人我只要說大法官會議這次的釋憲解釋從來沒有一句話說這個過程是違反民主從來沒有挑戰我們立法院的這個程序從來沒有過這個釋憲沒有來接著請王玉琳委員"},{"start":26119.299,"end":26137.112,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席辛苦了從早上到現在 這個我們看到這個財化法一定要進入到主條但是看起來民進黨黨團是反對財化法的修正所以透過程序上這個杯葛其實已經第一輪第二輪大家不斷地發言"},{"start":26139.013,"end":26149.821,"text":"但是本期在這邊也希望說等一下如果大家連續發言是不是可以發言過的內容不用再重複一次畢竟官員的時間也很寶貴這些官員已經從早上做到現在聆聽各位委員的高見那已經很久了"},{"start":26155.805,"end":26163.486,"text":"我認為如果大家對於財化法有任何的意見進到實質的具體的修法內容大家好好的來論戰你認為哪邊不合理不應該這樣修然後把自己的意見充分的表達出來我想這個才是作為國會議員我們在國會問政裡面可以展現各自專業的一面那這樣子一個程序的杯葛我想適度就好"},{"start":26183.19,"end":26206.535,"text":"應該要進入到實質的討論首先關於這個《財化法》的修正事實上已經長達25年我們說法都要與時俱進一部法案如果已經長達25年沒有修正難道不應該回過頭來檢視這裡面中央跟地方的財政分配這個比例是不是有失衡的問題從今審的時候"},{"start":26210.376,"end":26215.139,"text":"當時88年是中央地方是60比40到現在113年最新的資料中央佔75地方佔25那這樣的一個情況不是已經開始傾斜嗎?是不是應該要適度的調整回來?"},{"start":26226.627,"end":26249.855,"text":"另外對於財政比較困窘的縣市像嘉義縣來講嘉義縣的財政非常的困難那難道在整個統籌分配稅款我們對於相對財政困難的縣市不應該在這一次的調整當中我們在非六都的縣市也應該要多爭取經費讓各縣市的首長"},{"start":26250.595,"end":26263.21,"text":"他們有足夠的財源可以去進行地方的建設嗎?所以這次的財化法的修正剛剛有委員提到說不應該但是你如果去問問22個縣市地方的首長"},{"start":26267.314,"end":26286.759,"text":"請問有哪一個首長認為是不應該?哪一個首長會跳出來反對?包括我們當今的賴清德總統過去在地方擔任首長的時候他也認為《財化法》有不公平之處應該要重新修正所以今天有關於《財化法》"},{"start":26288.341,"end":26301.062,"text":"這個134要進入主條的修正我在這邊呼籲我們是不是委員會大家的委員還有外委會的委員大家都可以秉持專業、公平、理性這樣的態度來思考這樣的一個修法方向以上謝謝"},{"start":26303.17,"end":26330.416,"text":"謝謝王毅民委員我們現在還在程序的過程還沒有進入逐條我們也當然希望趕快進入逐條討論而且上次立法院直線行事法大法官會議並沒有說像民進黨說什麼沒有討論不是民主大法官的解釋裡頭沒有針對這個過程做出任何的挑剔但是我們還是讓大家充分發言尊重各位委員的發言接著我們請沈博洋委員"},{"start":26341.55,"end":26368.562,"text":"好,那沈博洋第二次的會議詢問那這邊我覺得還是第一個因為我們還是在程序那這個會議詢問我還是要跟主席還是剛剛各位委員其實也提醒過了就是說呢我們不盡量評論這個詢問的部分但詢問如果是內容的部分應該沒什麼問題比如說像以前會議詢問我們有時候會說今天這個冷氣有點冷那可能主席就會才是議事人員要處理但是你不可能就開始講說"},{"start":26369.942,"end":26395.937,"text":"這個冷氣那麼冷,這個太冷的話,是不是為什麼不去提案?你為什麼自己不帶溫度計?等等之類的,那個就變成一種評論。所以呢,希望是能夠針對會議詢問的內容來說。那我回到我今天早上,因為早上只有一分鐘,還沒有辦法講完。但今天呢,我們非常重要的一件事情是在於說,這個修法的動機到底為何?如果修法的動機本來不正當的話,其實它就不應該進入到這一個主條。那理由很簡單,剛剛我們可以聽到很多國民黨的委員提到,"},{"start":26396.757,"end":26422.934,"text":"這個法律很久沒修了我要告訴大家我們憲法也很久沒修了所以我們是不是也要稍微修一下憲法其實一個法律要不要修正跟這個關係不大如果真的跟財政有關係的話那應該是中央跟地方財政之間的分界我們現在淨收入的比例中央跟地方是62比38如果支出的部分是64比36那就表示它基本上是橫平的狀態如果它是一個橫平的狀態"},{"start":26423.755,"end":26453.315,"text":"那為什麼現在要從中央挖一塊肉然後把它放下去而且現在還不知道這個肉的用途到底在哪裡而更重要的事情就是我們先不要講說每一個縣市的水平分配今天非常重要的一點是我們6月5號的那一次剛剛這一個網紅會員一直提到說6月5號已經邀請了很多這個各部會還有地方政府來問題是我上網看這個會議本身就是沒有結論啊它就是沒有共識啊"},{"start":26453.895,"end":26467.247,"text":"更不要講說中央被挖走的這一群人他沒有來發言我們今天可以看到如果按照目前的版本來看的話我們光是國防就要少掉2945億如果今天國防少掉2945億然後全部可以補給地方"},{"start":26473.732,"end":26503.068,"text":"那地方當然聽起來很開心啊我每個地方多100億每個地方多200億我當然很開心啊那你今天犧牲的是什麼2945億就是你等於要告訴民眾你在6月5號的時候就應該請國防部來說明說是不是IDF跟幻象2000現在都不用維護了今天所有的單兵戰傷救護的急救包採購也都不用了魚叉飛彈現在是不是也不用買了後備時的無線電的補充案是不是也不用做了新式的高校機能的軌跡噴煙裝置是不是也不要了"},{"start":26503.428,"end":26517.043,"text":"我剛剛唸的這一些所有我們現在軍事的投資跟作業維持加起來就已經還不到2900喔這些會全部都沒有那我們今天要很簡單我們就應該跟民眾說明也應該讓各部會來講嘛"},{"start":26519.386,"end":26536.979,"text":"你今天犧牲的金錢到底是什麼?這些東西都沒有了,那我們國安、我們的國防就不用再往下發展了那這些意見都沒有被採納,然後就把這樣的錢全部放到地方上面這樣的討論本身會是有問題的,所以我是建議要協商不要那麼快的就進入到主條,謝謝好,謝謝沈博洋委員,接著我們請張雅琳委員"},{"start":26553.534,"end":26576.641,"text":"謝謝主席喔我想就是說今天早上其實我有特別去強調說其實我們地方財政紀律不佳過去我們還有一些方法我們可以去扣減它的一些補助款但是一旦我們今天這樣子的法通過了我們中央家要用什麼樣子的方法來去約束我們地方政府呢"},{"start":26578.101,"end":26593.622,"text":"現在我們在這些地方政府浪費掉這些文子館跟博物館跟訓練場到底接下來我們要用什麼樣子的方式來去好好的讓他們可以更好好的去花錢而不是直接從中央拿了錢之後我們根本不知道他要做什麼"},{"start":26595.359,"end":26610.13,"text":"現在大家從中央挖錢挖了這這麼多錢這錢到底要從哪裡來從我自己的專業來看的話我們的少子女化對策就會少346億我們的育嬰留職、停薪加急補助就會少掉39億還有社安網134億"},{"start":26613.773,"end":26626.722,"text":"那在其中裡面還有包含了我們的中小學、教育、學錢、教育這些錢到底是要從教育部來挖嗎?還是要從衛福部來挖嗎?我想這個都非常需要有相關的部會來回應那同時呢"},{"start":26627.987,"end":26657.427,"text":"即使在6月5號的公聽會就是沒有共識沒有結論因為大家都在強調一件事情就是你不能只有拿錢不辦事事權的討論是需要非常非常清楚的所以再來另外一個部分是說我想大家其實並沒有說我們完全不可以討論而是說到底應該要怎麼樣的詳實的討論讓地方讓各個部會可以來表達意見來讓我們的每一個小孩每一個影響到我們納稅人的錢的這個部分都可以被"},{"start":26658.047,"end":26678.44,"text":"充分的得到支持再來最後一個部分我也想要去強調當我們今天地方都各自拿錢了之後呢我剛剛有講直轄市拿錢不好嗎但是我們也要去思考當我們今天錢全部集中在直轄縣市的時候那一般地方的建設要怎麼做呢"},{"start":26679.693,"end":26704.499,"text":"我們難道要就是說城市發展很好鄉村我們就不管了嗎這些鄉村的孩子現在苗栗縣財政不佳現在我們還可以透過中央的約束我們還可以去刪減他的補助款但是如果他以後財政不佳拿了我們的錢之後應該要給兒童的教育應該要給育兒家庭的補助他拿去做別的事情的時候我們到底該怎麼辦而這些小孩子的教育難道就要"},{"start":26705.279,"end":26707.862,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":26726.623,"end":26742.776,"text":"還有兒少平台的營運或是我們一直在講我們要國際化我們要有台劇的內容升級這些都是會受到影響的部分所以我希望我們今天可以有再更多的討論相關的部會相關的縣市來做更多的討論因為這個影響非常的大謝謝"},{"start":26745.639,"end":26758.153,"text":"好,謝謝張雅琳委員的會議詢問,接著我們請陳金輝委員,我們現在開放第三輪的會議詢問登記請大家來登記第三輪,第二輪還有大概還有15位"},{"start":26761.023,"end":26769.348,"text":"好 謝謝主席也謝謝各位委員也感謝主席今天讓我們有充分的時間可以表達大家的意見但早上經過第一輪的會議詢問現在即將開始我第二輪會議詢問那接著講早上講到的"},{"start":26775.552,"end":26799.33,"text":"因為從以前的扁政府還有到蔡政府其實非常多的執政黨政府都曾經希望有多一點的法定的財源保障也呼籲一定要修財化法所以剛提到我們的財稅專家也是許多委員認同的林全院長他曾經講到說財化法如果不改國家是沒有希望的這是邁向中央財政正軌的最初步加減法"},{"start":26800.271,"end":26819.005,"text":"並且點出來說地方表面自治但財政權卻仍在握在中央的手上地方最大的動機是跟政府要錢政府也沒給地方開源節的環境變成一種惡性的循環根本達不到地方自治的境界這是從之前林全院長"},{"start":26819.865,"end":26839.508,"text":"國外留學回來之後呢曾經點出我們台灣很深層的問題所以以上從蔡政府到現在過了8年多的時間既然執政黨跟我們說國家的中央財政表現越來越良好那就代表中央有更多的本錢能開始讓地方政府來更茁壯了我也誠心的建議"},{"start":26840.149,"end":26862.18,"text":"不要光是把中央的錢會變少當成反對的理由因為中央的錢變少跟中央的錢不夠了這兩者還是有很大的區別的也有許許多多的委員談到說六都地方政府遭到的不公平這點我也認同畢竟現在的台灣是用還沒有六都時期的財政收支跟劃分的遊戲規則來適用當前的現況"},{"start":26865.362,"end":26883.779,"text":"如果法律沒有與時俱進的話那我們就會再走回頭路了現在地方的直轄市變多透過調高地方徵得的中央稅像是所得稅收、營業稅以及貨物稅等方式將中央與地方稅收比從7比3調整到6比4這點就是有需要的"},{"start":26884.139,"end":26902.964,"text":"而且地方政府做建設本來就沒有分藍綠所以我們希望可以廣納希望都可以benefit到所有藍綠的縣市希望財政部能夠讓地方政府好好的做事我想最後是一個結論正因為大家現在都還有不同的看法所以我也希望很多人看到"},{"start":26903.884,"end":26922.386,"text":"提到說賴總統擔任市長的時期所喊話中央的原話賴市長當初說人口持續往北中部集合沒有達成中央政府當時所強調的為了城鄉平衡的目標造成這個現象的主要成因是深隔只做了一半"},{"start":26922.907,"end":26946.67,"text":"深隔後相關的配套法案包括財政收支劃分法、公債法並沒有隨同的通過甚至還說要拿出非過不可的決心所以我們今天其實就是在反映賴總統時任賴市長當時所有的意見所以希望可以在前提上我們可能修個更好的方式希望來繼續討論下去那也感謝主席花了非常多的時間排審謝謝"},{"start":26949.835,"end":26954.222,"text":"謝謝陳金輝委員我們休息10分鐘讓官員可以伸展一下然後10分鐘後繼續謝謝"},{"start":27561.889,"end":27590.562,"text":"好 我們休息時間到了 我們繼續開會跟委會宣告我們剛剛開始了第三輪的會議詢問登記第二輪發言完畢完 我們也許再休息一下進行第三輪剛剛也早上就說過了我們今天會延長開會到晚上12點 早上就說過但是我們中間會讓大家休息吃晚餐不用擔心來 然後這個第三輪已經開放登記想要發言委員可以上來登記現在已經有登記為國公務委員了"},{"start":27591.863,"end":27594.577,"text":"好 接著陳靜雲發言完畢 我們請范瑩芬委員"},{"start":27607.557,"end":27634.366,"text":"謝謝召委首先還是要跟剛剛一樣要先抗議主席今天意識非常的不忠早上中午下午意識規則不斷的變動早上有人一次會議詢問說一分鐘可以講三分鐘可是我跟張雅琳委員不知道是不是因為我們的性別主席覺得沒有特別想要對我們友善一點我們一分鐘到的時候你就直接讓我消音了"},{"start":27635.527,"end":27649.427,"text":"可是後來男性委員上場的時候不知道為什麼就可以講2到3分鐘所以我想主席除了不斷的評論我們大家之外有嚴重的意識不忠的問題所以待會請主席不要再任意評論本席的發言"},{"start":27651.73,"end":27670.535,"text":"首先早上我講了就是為什麼不好好地讓大家審慎規劃的第一個原因現在繼續講第二個原因我想剛剛大家都已經講到就是依照國民黨的版本我們先不要講你們內部的委員差異很大以你國民黨團的版本中央稅入會少4080億中央只剩3600"},{"start":27676.417,"end":27678.379,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":27695.814,"end":27715.63,"text":"到112年,就是去年其實地方已經剩餘648億了那中央財政情勢已經改變的情況下剛剛沈博洋委員等已經講到如果依照國民黨團的版本我們國防、社福等很多的部分都必須被迫刪減超過三分之一"},{"start":27717.972,"end":27728.107,"text":"那你說地方相信地方地方要錢可是我要講的是地方財政紀律非常的糟啊因為我們看到我上一次已經講到了"},{"start":27729.318,"end":27754.585,"text":"非常多的地方光是教育是法定的義務都沒有做好那教育的經費改去做別的部分那我想再講兩個議題地方財政就是紀律非常差還有一個原因是地方的監督常常被縣市首長用某些方式阻斷我以我們國民黨總召富坤集最熟悉的花蓮縣議會來講"},{"start":27756.986,"end":27779.459,"text":"花蓮縣議會質詢最有力的張美惠議員她在地方的建設建議款上居然被花蓮縣政府審查就是最後一名這是花蓮縣她對願意監督的議員是懲罰的方式新北市剛講到六都新北市的侯友毅也非常有名我們看到媒體已經不止一次報導"},{"start":27780.519,"end":27808.629,"text":"監督最有力的戴偉山他每年度的議員的地方建議款1000萬居然是年年掛鈴今年還是跟陳嵐宇兩位都掛鈴就是因為他監督很有力所以我要講的是地方的財政有嚴重紀律的問題加上監督不足在這樣的情況下我不知道就是你們又能夠讓財政歸地方可是市權又沒有增加那我覺得到目前為止"},{"start":27809.369,"end":27824.307,"text":"我們沒有看到一個合理的版本再加上這是預算會期我已經不想再譴責主席了這應該是國民黨團對我們主席交代的任務因為你主席你自己的版本陳玉珍的版本是328億跟你們黨團版本又差距甚大"},{"start":27827.791,"end":27842.758,"text":"所以我的會議詢問就是國民黨團為什麼不好好審預算需要在這個預算會期審這個嚴重沒有基本共識沒有一個理想版本的法案那請主席不要回應我的詢問我是質問國民黨團啦以上 謝謝"},{"start":27852.039,"end":27877.172,"text":"所以你不要我回答那我就不回答你的這個會議詢問但是我絕對沒有什麼會議不公正因為有時候志氣太亂就會這樣子如果志氣好我就大家知道我主持會會都讓大家唱首異言雖然三分鐘都讓大家盡量講沒關係因為而且我們還可以登記第三輪、第四輪、第五輪上一個我們討論到第三輪就沒有人登記了好請大家已經開放第三輪要記得來登記喔來接著請賴瑞榮委員"},{"start":27878.873,"end":27882.257,"text":"賴瑞榮、賴瑞榮、賴瑞榮不在接著請羅美玲委員好 謝謝主席"},{"start":27893.975,"end":27902.719,"text":"今天有委員說中央急錢又急權不顧地方政府的財政狀況地方政府像乞丐一樣因此要中央每年大幅釋出財源實際上是這樣其實從2015年到2023年地方自籌財源這樣最初比例每年都有呈現遞減而且地方政府長短期負債逐年都在下降"},{"start":27923.849,"end":27939.998,"text":"這表示中央對地方財源益處是逐年在增加的尤其明年更是來到創新高來到1兆151億比馬政府時代的5506億多出了一倍的補助那剛剛范瑩委員也說了中央透過"},{"start":27940.959,"end":27945.002,"text":"分配款、補助款、預助地方的財源整體地方財源已經由2012年的短處589億到2023年剩餘的648億那尤其近5年都是剩餘的這個狀況那當然各地方政府的這個狀況有很大的差異"},{"start":27958.092,"end":27968.039,"text":"重點就是過去8年來整體地方政府的財政狀況有很大的改善本席要再度的強調本席絕對支持大家就事論事針對25年來未修的財化法審慎的做溝通、研究、會商尤其是對於分配10個指標的權重我們必須都要取得共識之後進行更合乎現況跟未來發展的修法"},{"start":27987.813,"end":28016.334,"text":"那再來呢本期剛剛早上有提到目前委員會共提出22個這個草案的版本經過四算之後呢中央裁員釋出金額從328億元到7633億不等差異呢是非常大的舉個例子來講假設如果我們是按照國民黨團的這個版本的話修法後各級地方政府獲配裁員將由現在的4000多億呢暴增到"},{"start":28017.074,"end":28026.782,"text":"九千九百億那如果中央的財源大幅釋出到地方請問我們的勞保、勞健保還有勞農津貼誰要來負擔這個有沒有做討論那還有交通建設、教育經費、社福醫療還有針對未來氣候變遷我們可能面對的一些相關的"},{"start":28039.048,"end":28043.289,"text":"防洪治水救災重建預算這些錢要從哪裡來?還有中國軍事威脅不斷國軍出勤率增加維持戰備更是需要的經費來支應這些相關的預算將會受到非常大的壓縮這個問題不是應該要好好來做討論嗎?"},{"start":28061.314,"end":28065.98,"text":"其實現在最緊要的還是攸關這個3兆1250億的114年度總預算案。2025年的新增的預算到現在都還沒有著落,我們就趕著料來修這個財劃法,這不是本末倒置嗎?"},{"start":28079.818,"end":28090.793,"text":"謝謝羅明林委員接著我們請李昆成委員李昆成李昆成李昆成不在哦鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌不在郭育晴委員"},{"start":28106.674,"end":28130.997,"text":"謝謝主席我再次強調其實根據我們的財政收支劃分法的一個精神其實就在各級政府的財政收支的關係要被明確的劃分然後才能夠均衡區域的一個發展那其實上一次其實我已經在這個地方講過了就每一個地方他們的權重跟他們所重視的指標其實是不一樣的扣除掉20幾個"},{"start":28139.903,"end":28161.357,"text":"五十二個指標當中我們又找到共識的也只有五個指標相對的來講就是90%是沒有共識在沒有共識的情況之下到底我們的財劃法到底急著修是在修什麼意思吼那另外我剛剛有特別提到其實地方要提升自己的財政的能力的方法不是只有從中央挖錢欸"},{"start":28162.738,"end":28187.667,"text":"不是只有把分配的金額拉高就好了耶這也還包含所謂的地方制度法、公債法還有地方稅法的通則不是只修財劃法就可以解決所有的問題那中央地方其實透過不同的一個指標要確保資源公平、分配、良好的財政紀律不是只要求我要權力我都沒有義務"},{"start":28188.907,"end":28213.203,"text":"這個是不對的喔那我想呢其實剛剛有特別很多的委員也都有提到如果照藍白線型的一個版本要應修財劃法其實就會造成所謂的強者橫強比方說台北市多了3%也就是他會多了200多億那請問服務員更廣大人口數更多的新北市呢好"},{"start":28214.244,"end":28229.496,"text":"那再講到114年度的中央總預算還不包括已經編列補助地方的5,412億跟義務要支出的1兆8,144億原本中央還可以用的財源是7,769億但藍白搶走了4,080億影響到了什麼?托育政策"},{"start":28235.721,"end":28254.416,"text":"國家跟你一起養0到6歲國家跟你一起養長照3.0租金的補助、國防的預算、地方所謂的計劃性的補助還有學生的學費的補助請問地方拿走了這麼多錢這些我剛剛念的他們可以負擔嗎?他們可以有這樣的權責嗎?再來講到衛福部的部分"},{"start":28257.813,"end":28284.807,"text":"很多人在提到說建保建保如果也從中央的預算被稀釋掉請問建保還包含其他像是營養午餐的一個補貼連同我們教育政策在一直在強調的員額的補助特教助理員的補助還有離島65歲以上的老人的補助還有中低收入戶未滿18歲的兒少的補助這都是要從中央來支應啊"},{"start":28287.008,"end":28294.231,"text":"請問我們中央的錢被拿走只剩下3000多億我還夠吃硬這些嗎?以上"},{"start":28323.652,"end":28342.977,"text":"可以先不要計時嗎?主席,你等一下可以不要評論我講的任何話嗎?你是說會議詢問我不要回答?你現在不是質詢...我沒有想問你耶!我其實真的沒有想問你,但是你今天...會議詢問你要問誰?我再跟主席您說話。沒有,我是主席。那你沒有要回答就對了齁?這是會議詢問,各位..."},{"start":28344.918,"end":28345.539,"text":"關於今天會議詢問了我們非常開心總算"},{"start":28363.315,"end":28380.797,"text":"讓我們的時間從一分鐘來到三分鐘主席剛剛還說要陪大家吃宵夜我們就來看一看主席到底要跟大家討論這個事情討論到哪裡可是我覺得今天所有在場的委員或是所有來自行政院的大家應該都可以發現"},{"start":28382.574,"end":28404.211,"text":"有非常多的委員在提醒不管是因為不夠有共識或者是每一個地方政府的想像還有每一個委員所關心的議題每一個委員所來自的地區大家的需求都不同如果有這麼多的困境我們必須要一起面對那我也要提醒不管是國民黨還是民眾黨的委員也都要一起"},{"start":28404.451,"end":28431.763,"text":"面對這個問題我想要從我手上的資料來看一下一、主席您所在的縣市而且你口口聲聲的說你是金門的女兒我們來看一下如果按照國民黨現在的提案版本主席您所來自的縣金門縣會受到哪些影響呢第一個在交通建設你一直呼籲交通建設要積極從中央挖錢我必須要說你要挖錢"},{"start":28432.463,"end":28450.975,"text":"可是如果按照你們提的版本相關計劃型的補助款項目在國內香港未來發展跟建設計劃會受到影響在公路公共運輸永續及交通平權計劃會受到影響主席又很喜歡標榜自己是來自於高學歷的大學中文系我們來看一下教育經費"},{"start":28451.915,"end":28479.306,"text":"少子女化計劃等學前教育會受到影響國民中小學孩子們必要的教育也會受到影響還有校園安全跟衛生教育也會受到影響那離開了教育場域我們來看社會福利跟醫療援助民族還有離島地區醫療保健行政工作會受到影響領導未滿2歲育兒津貼也會受到影響我就想要問來自金門的女兒主席主席我剛剛說請你不用回答謝謝"},{"start":28481.876,"end":28505.804,"text":"來自金門的主席口口聲聲說自己是金門的女兒你如何對您的鄉親、對您的長輩甚至是跟你的同輩他們可能都已經在家鄉結婚生子了他們在想像自己未來美好的生活但是在主席跟您的政黨還有民眾黨的支持跟堅持底下我們會看到非常荒謬"},{"start":28507.544,"end":28528.458,"text":"而且非常不合理,而且不認真論述的財劃法,所以我想要拜託主席您今天召開這個會議,我不知道您用意何在,但是我們可以看得出來,現在願意出席持續發言的國眾兩黨委員看起來屈指可數,我們也難以期待後續,但如果國眾兩黨"},{"start":28529.679,"end":28546.711,"text":"只想要用表決強度關山用多數決這件事情來忽略該對全台灣的人民做出正常正確的論述這件事情我認為請你們要再持續加油好謝謝主席我絕對不會超時但是我也不需要主席的回答跟評論謝謝"},{"start":28548.376,"end":28565.945,"text":"好 謝謝陳培鈺委員接著我們請李燕秀委員李燕秀 李燕秀 李燕秀不在然後我不會回應陳培鈺但是我還是要這個我們要講一下我們這個採訪法的修正有一條有一條那我們讓陳俊宇先發言是吧"},{"start":28589.081,"end":28599.425,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席可不可以先不計時我想跟您溝通一下可不可以先不計時"},{"start":28600.523,"end":28603.424,"text":"其實看起來今天整個財政委員會的亂象是由您而起充分發表意見啊因為從一開始的每一位"},{"start":28620.692,"end":28629.699,"text":"我希望說您能夠尊重每一個委員的範圍那也尊重正常的議事規則對啊正常議事規則讓每個人都有發言的機會啊其他沒有輪到他不要用麥克風在下面講話那我現在開始講啊現在開始齁 重新跟他計時齁"},{"start":28650.646,"end":28677.422,"text":"好那謝謝主席啦齁這個修財劃法這個知識體大也會牽動到國家整體的這個財政的穩定性必須以最嚴謹的這個態度來溝通並尋求這個共識啦齁那我們在討論不論是這個中央地方的這個垂直分配的合理性還是水平分配權和這個指標的這個公平性都應該"},{"start":28680.245,"end":28684.76,"text":"這個橫頻來看不應該只是重於分配比例的問題那我也認為"},{"start":28685.856,"end":28711.741,"text":"先前許多委員所強調今天若要對資源分配進行討論財權跟市權也應該通盤的檢討要讓哪些錢可以回歸地方相對的工作的業務也應該要交由地方來執行地方政府也相關部會也必須充分的交換意見包括地方制度法也需要配套進行修法才能讓中央和地方的政府"},{"start":28712.714,"end":28725.503,"text":"之間能夠全責相輔那今天只是單從中央釋出更多資源恐怕會排擠到的是國防還有社福、教育等重大的預算直接影響的是國家利益和民眾的這個權益"},{"start":28728.902,"end":28750.95,"text":"各縣市的財政狀況差異甚巨公商發展的條件也大不相同我也非常了解中央的經費挹注對於農業縣市的重要性尤其像宜蘭縣農特產非常豐富但對外的交通匱乏的情況更是嗷嗷待哺對於各項補助"},{"start":28753.609,"end":28775.93,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28776.53,"end":28794.299,"text":"打成高度的共識就進行修法更可能會影響到中央財政調適的能力不但不利國家政策的推動還可能因為憑空多出來的資源導致財政紀律不佳而浪費公帑的情形"},{"start":28795.546,"end":28817.482,"text":"所以在財化法的修法上我們還是希望能夠更審慎、更嚴謹尋求中央和地方之間最大的共識之外也必須是通過一步能夠妥善執行的法律要能夠確實縮小地方政府間的財政落差進一步來均衡區域間的發展"},{"start":28818.283,"end":28837.063,"text":"我們相信這才是這個修財化法的一個最終目標那我也希望委員會能夠在讓各方充分討論之後中央部會和地方政府之間尋求共識並且在合法合憲的架構之下再進一步來進行修法"},{"start":28844.872,"end":28862.626,"text":"謝謝陳靜穎委員國民黨的版本第30條有提到一般補助款不得地少於修正施行前一年度的預算編列書所以不會產生像金門港建設營油的計畫減少的情形地方各地的交易應該發展自己的特色接著我們請蔡議員委員"},{"start":28878.954,"end":28885.545,"text":"好,謝謝主席那我這一次發言我也是希望主席可以針對我們禮拜三"},{"start":28887.163,"end":28907.739,"text":"等會給你說沒關係,我等一下可以讓你回答我先幫你記起來看你這樣很噁心的,我會體諒一下,讓你一下就是說我們禮拜三可能會邀請各地方政府來,那我們事實上先比較一下"},{"start":28908.8,"end":28932.006,"text":"每一個委員事實上都有提出財劃法的版本就現在我相信其他未來還會有新的委員會再提出那如果以現在這種版本我們去稍微比較一下第16條就好第16條他事實上就有講到我們先從賴瑞榮委員他就有講到說各地方政府你要去比較的有包括經濟建設設置"},{"start":28936.387,"end":28961.158,"text":"配合國家整體經濟建設設置高污染產業情形所以這個就需要一個各縣市的數據的比較高污染的產業情形那我們再看國民黨的這個應該是你們的書記長林思銘的委員他事實上也有抓出一個數據叫做"},{"start":28965.302,"end":28986.353,"text":"他一樣在16條之一的時候他有講到說各縣市的基礎建設落後程度工業及科技業碳排放情形所以這又跑出一個新的要件了叫做基礎建設落後程度工業及科技業碳排放情形他這邊又講出兩個要件剛剛賴樂永是產業的這個經濟設置高污染的產業的情形"},{"start":28995.077,"end":29017.82,"text":"那我自己也有提出一個版本我是針對國土計劃法中會對應到的農一、農二以及國保一、國保二那就涉及到了糧食安全以及水源的穩定的一個狀況那各縣市政府所承擔的一個比例那希望這樣的一個比例可以把它在財劃法做出一個相對應的規劃"},{"start":29019.541,"end":29043.627,"text":"所以事實上我的版本有兩個要件那你再看一下丁學忠委員的版本事實上他在16條之一他也有列舉一個他一樣是用國土計劃法去列屬於農業發展地區的超過50%應優先補助這個是丁學忠委員的用語好我現在列舉的這些狀況"},{"start":29044.907,"end":29053.908,"text":"事實上,主席這問題就來啊。好,就是禮拜三的時候,我們來進行各縣市的時候,我們光是這裡我們需要好多資料"},{"start":29055.1,"end":29081.39,"text":"我們需要各縣市政府說明說好我們這個縣市裡面你們污染產業的分布情形還是林思銘委員說這個建設落後的情形建設落後的定義是什麼我覺得財政部光是這幾個要件要怎麼定義這個要件什麼叫做經濟落後經濟進步又是什麼"},{"start":29082.834,"end":29093.023,"text":"那我們可以想像的嘛,多期增加,當然說有的增加的建設一定比多期看慢,但是以後還有什麼?還有什麼工業及科技業碳排放情形"},{"start":29103.836,"end":29126.282,"text":"這個是科學數據吧對這是科學數據嘛還有剛剛講的這是林思銘委員的版本嘛經濟建設落後程度落後程度是什麼所以我也說財政部愛心達這些名詞你們要去思考一下因為目前沒有行政院的版本可是有好多名詞這些名詞未來在主條的時候就會"},{"start":29128.163,"end":29132.509,"text":"就必須要討論可是我們不能進入主條就是這些名詞記憶不清楚而且這些名詞現在政府也要去說啊說我這個污染狀況怎樣那我這個地方我的未來和農一農二的比例是怎樣"},{"start":29144.464,"end":29152.586,"text":"對這些東西你都要統整出來,我們大家再進一步主調,我們才有一個較分析啊!是不是這樣?我回答你的會議詢問,我們來馬上做一個採釋根據這個財政委員所提的,比如說剛提的幾點財政部要聽到,經濟落後還有這個工業及科技的什麼判排放那如果還有其他裡面可以寫下來請這個財政部在禮拜三之間"},{"start":29170.871,"end":29183.038,"text":"禮拜三我會出來,這是他們的能力,不用擔心。那沒能力也得有能力啊,這是基本。剛剛蔡委員說到你們有專心聽喔,經濟落後的程度,你們要寫出定義,還有工業及科技的碳排放喔,還有哪一點?還有呢?還有呢?天委會來說明嘛,如果天委會不說明什麼意思,但是你說要讓部會回答,我們就叫他寫功課過來。"},{"start":29200.698,"end":29214.266,"text":"對阿,所以財政部聽到那一句話嗎?那面對著這些方案,那這個會談,在討論的時候,我們要怎麼主條?禮拜二晚上就要送過來,然後發給這個委員,還有嗎?雙方服務委員說你就寫給我,我就這樣比較...所以我才會認為說,我們需要更多的討論,去把這些定義好。除了其他委員,你也可以提你的版本喔。對對對,你把所有的定義寫上來,需要定義的,我一定會請,這個不會回答。地方政府也要做這個資料的彙整阿。"},{"start":29230.595,"end":29230.755,"text":"主席"},{"start":29252.513,"end":29267.281,"text":"這個應該是環境部的喔,碳排放喔這個是環境部的蔡英文提這個這個是環境部喔記得要教功課喔禮拜三以前還有經濟落後程度喔這個應該經濟落後程度這應該是經濟部的事情吧經濟部經濟部有沒有來"},{"start":29269.093,"end":29283.858,"text":"今天我們沒有來,等一下轉達給國會委員會的請次,因為次長都要過來,我們要請他交關課蔡議員、委員也歡迎再提出更多的定義,我會請各個部會禮拜三之前交過來,謝謝蔡委員接著請王晃衛委員,謝謝"},{"start":29300.37,"end":29303.152,"text":"謝謝主席其實經過大家這麼多的發言之後我就說了這個財劃法本來就應該可以集思廣益、精益求精那麼在前面幾位委員還特別質疑有關於中央和地方的財政自治的部分、自治事項的分配"},{"start":29326.613,"end":29342.079,"text":"那我一直講就說非常歡迎我們很多位委員關心財劃法但是呢請大家也多要用功一下啦因為事實上比如大家提到的地方制度法地方制度法第18條、第19條、第20條對於中央和地方的自治事項其實都列明列得非常清楚是具體的羅列"},{"start":29354.584,"end":29357.727,"text":"另外在這個財化法剛才有講到說這個有沒有違反我們財政紀律法因為事實上不管是我們的憲法或者是我們的地方制度法剛才說了其實就已經非常明確的"},{"start":29376.204,"end":29384.228,"text":"告訴大家我們的稅分國稅、省稅、縣稅也有分中央財政和國稅其實"},{"start":29388.123,"end":29394.087,"text":"在我們的《財化法》開宗明義就是根據中華民國憲法來制定的所以之前還會有說這有沒有違憲的問題我真的覺得不要什麼萬物都要去釋憲 釋憲是上癮了因為《財化法》雖然有25年沒有修正"},{"start":29410.237,"end":29429.063,"text":"但是,它不是一部完全創新的法律,它是一個舊法。過去在憲法、在地方制度法,我剛才講,包含憲法裡面所規定相關的中央和地方的"},{"start":29430.023,"end":29433.546,"text":"職務、職權以及自治事項都講得非常的清楚所以修正財劃法沒有任何違憲違法的問題那另外大家也講到說哎呀"},{"start":29445.695,"end":29465.872,"text":"你們現在這個財化法有沒有什麼財政紀律法令找財源的問題從明年開始我們地方議會我想我不曉得各位委員記不記得我們地方議會的明代知己條例的修正我們地方明代的助理我們都薪資把它調高因為長期也是20多年都沒有調薪"},{"start":29473.098,"end":29486.139,"text":"那麼行政院也提出相關的版本。行政院也沒有提出說提高地方民代知己條例助理薪水有什麼一個"},{"start":29488.246,"end":29514.635,"text":"特殊的財源替代的財源所以我們在上個會期在所有不分政黨各黨派的委員都支持下然後提高了我們地方民代的知己條例在這樣的狀況之下也沒有違法也沒有違反財政紀律法的問題所以在這邊正本清源"},{"start":29515.555,"end":29532.558,"text":"大家關心我們很歡迎但是呢相關的財劃法的修正它本來就是一部已經存在的法律我們只是把它相關的中央和地方的財源分配來做調整既無違法更沒有違憲如果大家不理解的話建議大家"},{"start":29540.12,"end":29552.788,"text":"可以去參考憲法的107條還有我們財化法的開宗明義的總綱就已經告訴你這是依據憲法所制定的法律以上謝謝"},{"start":29554.638,"end":29580.094,"text":"謝謝王洪威委員剛剛針對這個蔡委員所提出的這幾點我再重申一下請各個部會專心聽到基礎建設落後程度這個應該經濟部工業及科技業碳排放情形這個應該是環境部然後高污染產業情形及空氣污染指數這個應該是環境部然後再加上國土計畫農業發展地區這個應該是內政部"},{"start":29586.186,"end":29611.72,"text":"還有...剛連連到這幾項基礎建設這個是基礎建設這個是交通部好交通部經濟落後程度這個是經濟部各部會都聽到了請在星期三星期二之前星期二下班之前要把這個我們蔡委員所提的這些指標的定義一定要交過來好謝謝接著我們請吳立法委員"},{"start":29614.124,"end":29618.528,"text":"吳立法委員、吳立法委員、吳立法委員不在吳立法委員、吳立法委員、吳立法委員不在"},{"start":29640.525,"end":29650.217,"text":"各位立法院的同仁我想今天我們在財政委員會的這一天其實大家剛才談了很多但重點我們感覺到"},{"start":29651.804,"end":29673.8,"text":"國民黨團還是不願意拔其實大家一直講出目前假設我們真的要好好的理性討論這個財劃法到底目前還缺乏什麼到底還有什麼問題可以聽進去所以今天為什麼這麼多的委員要在這裡面用發言的方式苦口婆心的在這邊提醒"},{"start":29674.929,"end":29697.24,"text":"在這邊要求就是因為我們知道以目前要來好好的討論理性的討論的財劃法目前版本上面看起來並不具備這樣的條件我想今天在座有很多的委員我們曾經都製作過很多的財務計劃跟財務分配請問有哪一個負責任的財務計劃"},{"start":29699.349,"end":29720.484,"text":"只需要討論挖錢不用討論如何支出或為什麼支出支出的義務為何請問在哪一個負責的財務計畫裡面你看得到這種狀況更不用說以現在國民黨的版本裡面我們已經可以預見未來很可能"},{"start":29722.369,"end":29747.376,"text":"我們的國防支出、國防預算很可能會遇到要大幅限縮的這個狀況這是為什麼大家一直在這邊提醒想要花錢想要讓地方多一點收入這可以討論但請問要不要有哪些法定的事權要來一併的調整這是大家一直不斷在追問的這個問題如果"},{"start":29751.188,"end":29772.671,"text":"當這一個垂直分配的狀況讓我們在國防的支出、讓健保的支出都出問題的時候我們要問還是地方政府願意來承擔跟分擔國防的支出、健保的支出接下來部分由地方政府來負擔、由基本權政府來負擔好不好"},{"start":29774.409,"end":29792.862,"text":"這是大家為什麼現在一直在討論事權最重要的原因剛剛郭國麟委員說目前國民黨的版本是他看過最糟糕的版本但國民黨說25年沒修了我們還是必須修但如果按照現在"},{"start":29794.244,"end":29820.462,"text":"公黨的版本修下去很可能對國家的體制、中央地方的分權造成更大的問問很多我們原本中央該做的法定支出無以為繼請問這誰要負責?請問誰要負責?公黨團要負責嗎?還是地方政府要負責嗎?對不起都沒有人說所以現在我們在立法院看到的狀況是"},{"start":29822.133,"end":29848.673,"text":"我們立法委員要求中央要承擔越來越多的責任建保點值要中央承擔、社福支出要中央承擔、建設的預算、工建要中央承擔這都是中央的責任但對不起地方我們要更多的收入但對於收到多的錢要怎麼用對不起不講的啦覺得沒有醫護提供啊"},{"start":29850.083,"end":29875.591,"text":"絕對沒有義務交代啦請問這是一個負責任的財務分配計畫嗎所以我們在這邊為什麼一講再講的原因就是因為拜託這是一個攸關國家未來發展大計的大法沒有錯啊這是憲法要求我們訂《財劃法》的沒錯啊但當你把《財劃法》搞爛了以後"},{"start":29877.191,"end":29894.559,"text":"這影響的是誰?影響的是在座的每一個人啊要修法可以但可不可以用負責任一點的方式來討論這個法條而不是用現在這種態度責任都要別人背權力都要自己拿"},{"start":29896.412,"end":29920.516,"text":"這就是現在我們看到國民黨的版本好 謝謝喔已經超過三分鐘了剛剛那個蔡議員所說還有我剛剛看到的這個農業部的農業部也要講農二跟農一農二的比例要準備喔好 謝謝接著我們請陳秀寶委員 謝謝何委員可以登記第三輪發言還有第三輪"},{"start":29931.272,"end":29957.259,"text":"謝謝主席主席你也不要一直強調說為什麼我們會詢問不讓你回答因為你這答非所問所以你就不要回答了好謝謝我要再次強調中央的財源跟地方的財源合理劃分是不分黨派應該共同努力的方向及目標但是必須要充分的討論每個區域立委都希望為地方爭取更多的經費我的立場並不是反對修法"},{"start":29960.6,"end":29979.13,"text":"但是我們必須要有周全的討論、細緻的討論我們希望能夠更周延、更綿密的來修這個財劃法今天的這個所有的法案的版本對我們地方是真的比較有利嗎?應該怎樣的分配比例對地方才是真的最有效益、最公平?"},{"start":29980.13,"end":29996.911,"text":"過去我們也曾經來到中央跟著縣長一起來到中央來爭取財劃法應該要調整但是我們願意給中央、給部會時間來研議因為沒有經過充分的討論沒有共識所修出來的法就是倉促的、粗糙的"},{"start":29998.308,"end":30019.103,"text":"看似增加了縣府的財源收入但是我們失去的是中央統籌的公共建設、交通建設、重大建設這樣子的修法對地方真的是比較有利嗎?中央的經費就是固定這麼多每個縣市分走了之後中央還有多少可以用來支應在國防、在教育、在社福、在醫療、在軍警、消防等等的業務難道可以說那既然經費分配給了縣市那這些業務也通通給縣市都領走嗎?"},{"start":30027.108,"end":30055.883,"text":"沒有稀釋的討論地方政府應該負擔的、能負擔的這個前提之下要要求中央政府釋出財源會使重大建設的規劃困難許多跨域的、跨縣市的公共工程、交通工程、公共建設都是由中央統籌來規劃並主導在我選區裡面現在正在興建的河美大橋彰化到台中兩分鐘就會到這是跨縣市的建設也是跨部會的經費有交通部、有內政部"},{"start":30056.323,"end":30074.759,"text":"如果因為釋出財源需要扣減相關的經費將會使許多重大建設停擺不僅不利國家的發展也對地方政府推動地方建設進度有所阻礙我從2020年上任就很積極爭取了美港公路高架化"},{"start":30075.66,"end":30081.488,"text":"經過不斷的關心追蹤,終於在2024年的2月由前行政院長陳建仁院長合訂後面交通部還要後續要做的還有綜合規劃環評及建設計劃如果財劃法很倉促地強行通過"},{"start":30091.303,"end":30107.196,"text":"那麼這些中央的財源釋出之後到底地方因應期盼的這個美港公路高架化該如何來繼續我們需要有更細緻周全的討論有共同的共識再來修法才是地方之福主席您不用回答謝謝陳秀寶委員我們還有第三輪的登記還沒有登記還沒想發言委員可以繼續登記好接著我們請內會委員、委員"},{"start":30118.766,"end":30119.446,"text":"主席"},{"start":30148.544,"end":30173.731,"text":"各位同仁大家好我想今天呢會討論這麼久有一部分的時間呢其實跟主席的主持議會風格息息相關主席呢喜歡評論別人但我今天也稍微評論一下主席主席今天的這個召委的角色已經形成一個歷史定位啦也就是所謂的一分真這一分真啊造成今天的議事九分亂啦"},{"start":30175.131,"end":30189.439,"text":"所以一分真的這個召委會創下本委員會歷史以來最大的惡例我希望主席在後續的討論擔任召委的期間不要再形成一分真的亂象"},{"start":30190.66,"end":30196.246,"text":"一個很奇怪,早上的時候你又comment我了,這麼急嗎?是一分言還半分言?這樣子啊,你老是這樣子都事後來審判我們我講的話你又要干擾我"},{"start":30208.179,"end":30215.627,"text":"我剛剛才提醒過你不要變成酒氛亂你又繼續來跟我亂主席你要浪費我的時間你要倒回去啊你不如用這個方式來跟我吵架嘛對不對你只想評論別人不讓人家評論哪有這種道理謝謝你希望你能夠虛心檢討"},{"start":30230.481,"end":30249.318,"text":"主席早上我還有一個就事情上的討論當中呢我就很慎重的提出說為什麼我屢屢在每一次在財政委員會討論財政收支劃分法的時候都希望透過不同角度來面對等個地方財政的問題為什麼都沒有討論今天就要進入主條"},{"start":30250.621,"end":30274.387,"text":"為什麼?今天的狀況當中我就早上就講很清楚在整個事權跟財權的過程當中有很清楚的面對啊地方政府長期以來仰賴於地方的整個計劃型補助啊包括在11、3年的計劃型補助啊就高達2600億之多在11、4年的計劃型補助啊更高達2911億就將近3000億喔"},{"start":30279.996,"end":30294.789,"text":"這種計劃型的補助啊已經變成常態化了那我要問一下主席啊這樣子的情況底下中央跟地方的權屬劃分要怎麼劃分是不是應該把這些常態性的計劃型的補助下放給地方政府"},{"start":30295.47,"end":30319.724,"text":"免得你一頭過來要跟我增加錢把我的統籌分配款全力拿下去下放給地方之後結果責任又留在中央啊中央的部分又撥錢給你天下豈有如此道理啊這更不合理嘛所以為什麼我會義正嚴詞的講說國民黨版本是史上最爛的版本不是國民黨比較厲害"},{"start":30320.825,"end":30336.337,"text":"二十五年來沒有修改的版本不是國民黨比較厲害是國民黨的臉皮比較厚而已啦不是你們比較厲害你們用一個垂直的概念就想要解決整個地方財政的問題那簡直是滑...滑...整個是天下滑天下之機嘛"},{"start":30337.378,"end":30364.653,"text":"我必須說清楚這個不是那麼簡單會拖了25年從1999年動審之後至今還沒有修改一定有它的原因其來有至其來有至的原因就是說此部法案要形成共識相當之困難嘛如果說要面對這個問題就要從長計議你們不是一個從長計議的角色你們不是為了整個制度可長可久你們不是想要建立一個良法美意都不是"},{"start":30365.714,"end":30392.168,"text":"你們只是想要癱瘓中央你們只是想要破壞體制這就是國民黨修法版本背後的真正的政治目的啦你應該讓我講久一點啦每次講到國民黨你就站起來你不是要給我更多時間嗎還有第四輪啦 對不對還有第四輪我可以等你啊好我今天第三輪在等你第四輪謝謝喔這個第三輪謝謝郭委員喔這個講得真的非常好喔不用看稿來"},{"start":30393.568,"end":30418.317,"text":"這個有沒有人要登記這個倉座俱佳?這個有沒有人要登記第三輪?說你好壞也不行喔!說你講得很好!說你很好啊!我已經從一分鐘到給大家三分鐘,可不可以再改一下?來!"},{"start":30420.526,"end":30442.126,"text":"第三輪我們第三輪有沒有人要登記?沒有我們就結束第三輪的登記了你要登記嗎?請登記我們還有第四輪大家不用擔心我們因為今天會開到12點所以大家不用擔心每一輪往下開我會給大家吃飯的時間蔡議員你要登記是嗎?好那我們第三輪蔡議員還有沒有人現場要登記的?"},{"start":30444.451,"end":30460.38,"text":"沈博洋委員有登記了吼?好,如果沒有,我們第三輪登記就結束了吼,那我們就會,我們會延長開會告辭,晚上12點吼。好,我們現在接著請沈博洋委員吼,我們今天會開到12點吼,大家要準備吼,要有心理準備吼。好,謝謝。"},{"start":30468.052,"end":30484.918,"text":"沈伯洋第三次發言那這個主席有時候還是會忍不住評論所以還是這個但是大家每次上來都已經拜託我覺得就不用再拜託一次了那我們剛剛講到就是說國民黨這次修法的一個動機那為什麼我們說這個不宜進入主條"},{"start":30485.658,"end":30514.008,"text":"最主要的原因最主要在今年年初的時候就已經有花東三法的問題當時花東三法被提出來的時候大家的聲音是什麼就是那裡的財源到底要哪裡來你為什麼可以直接挖掉那麼大的一筆的預算所以當時也是因為這樣喊停了之後結果現在新的財化法這樣的一個修正方式反而是把所有的縣市一起拖下水本來就只有在花東相關的一個財政"},{"start":30514.748,"end":30528.604,"text":"把他變成是一個全國的一個財政問題但我還是要再度強調就是地方上需不需要錢這本來就是一個假命題從103年2014年一直到現在地方上的支出是增加了8%"},{"start":30530.686,"end":30554.045,"text":"以及不管是這個所謂的統籌分配款從2400多億到4700多億還包含一般性的補助款從1800多億到2500多億各部會的計劃型補助從1200多到2900多這個增幅非常的巨大我在上一輪發言的時候也有提到就是我們現在的收入是62比38支出是64比36"},{"start":30558.989,"end":30584.018,"text":"這個基本上並沒有地方上財源不足的問題更不要講說地方上並還沒有提出相關的計劃所以如果用這個虛假的命題當作理由的話這個並不合適那再來就是呢因為這是會議詢問我不進入細節的討論但會議詢問最主要我們反對的一點就是如果禮拜三我們請到每一個不同的地方政府來這個沒有任何的"},{"start":30584.858,"end":30599.665,"text":"任何的一個比照為什麼呢?你每一個縣市政府每一個地方問他要不要100億、問他要不要200億他都欣然接受嘛但問題就是這個錢到底是從哪裡挖出來的所以被挖的人也應該要在場才對"},{"start":30601.366,"end":30615.417,"text":"所以這就是我們在會議詢問非常重要的一個訴求就是不只是法案裡面的標準不明確的問題今天是國防部被挖還是衛福部被挖我們今天是不是像我剛剛講的魚叉飛彈是不是就不要買了我們各這個什麼軍裡面的每一個我們的陸軍的海軍的空軍的裝備是不是都不要了我們0到2歲這個現在國家要補助是不是就不要了"},{"start":30626.705,"end":30642.121,"text":"我們請總召來說明是不是他現在認為花蓮的公托也都完全不要了?人民的補助是不是也都不要了?因為把這些都不要了之後才有辦法把錢全部按照這一個法案丟給地方"},{"start":30642.802,"end":30668.624,"text":"如果這一件事情沒有其他的部會來說明被挖的人沒有來說明的話我們只是討論水平分配這件事情然後說水平分配公不公平問題是那一個肉擺在那邊大家都想要吃啊但我們如果因為這個樣子去弱化我們的國安弱化我們的國防2900多億的國防預算是什麼概念我們國防預算是6000多億也就是將近一半的國防預算會這樣憑空消失"},{"start":30670.245,"end":30674.754,"text":"我覺得這個就是為什麼我們不應該進入逐條討論最重要的理由謝謝"},{"start":30675.782,"end":30704.531,"text":"好 謝謝沈博洋委員發言根據您的擔心剛剛您的擔心我們早上有做決議就是星期三的時候我們會請所有部會剛剛已經發通知了政務次長以上要報到一定要來所以如果要請假了我們你看我們這麼多委員這麼關心是不准請假的政務次長各個部會全部都發通知因為每位委員說每個部會都會影響到那大家記得一定要來接著我們請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":30706.316,"end":30706.336,"text":"是嗎?"},{"start":30717.889,"end":30744.257,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想從早上9點討論到現在為什麼需要不斷的會議詢問就是因為一開始真的只有一分鐘然後呢一分鐘的過程中現場又很混亂當時我第一次發言的時候我只講了26秒那我希望透過現在的會議詢問想大家也都逐漸的凝聚了共識首先第一個當然就是對於接下來我們的會議的進行包括禮拜三那麼禮拜三"},{"start":30746.599,"end":30764.097,"text":"呃﹑剛剛國民黨的委員一直不斷的是講說阿民進黨你要提版本阿有民進黨包括武力華委員也有版本那麼到了禮拜三之後第一個現在就是除了可能被預算被縮減的中央部會要來因為這是一個"},{"start":30765.367,"end":30766.187,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":30786.736,"end":30801.71,"text":"是符合全民的利益嗎?這是第一點第二點是剛剛我們講到的一早我的那26秒當中我就提到了從過去的第一次的審查到公聽會都出現就是22個縣市有出席的"},{"start":30802.25,"end":30817.792,"text":"他們對於能夠多一點預算跟經費當然都OK但是所多出來的預算經費包括過去本席在財政委員會非常清楚的從財政部到主計處對於地方的財政是有一定"},{"start":30818.613,"end":30832.549,"text":"的所謂指標當他們的這個所謂財政紀律的指標不足的時候是會對於他們的地方政府的預算使用會有所限制"},{"start":30833.59,"end":30845.559,"text":"那麼對於現在有些地方政府會去蓋所謂的蚊子館又或者是去辦一些放煙火的活動這個也是過去多所批評但是如果現在根據國民黨的黨版你要用這種所謂的只給錢不問預算怎麼使用那麼現在本席就要問了當中央政府的官員出席了"},{"start":30856.727,"end":30872.58,"text":"地方政府的官員也來了那麼地方政府的官員是不是也應該在禮拜三的時候要好好的做出說明不能只是說有錢給我多多益善越多越好中央要表達"},{"start":30873.32,"end":30887.813,"text":"那麼到底是哪些?比如說國防預算我們不要了嗎?還是民眾最希望的社會福利預算我們不要了?或者是教育預算我們不要了?然後讓地方來執行,而地方能不能做得到?"},{"start":30888.433,"end":30909.311,"text":"所以本席要問的是禮拜三當這些中央部會跟地方政府都派員出席的時候我們雖然身為外委會的委員但是我們長期在關注國家財政的委員我們是不是還是會像今天郁真主席這樣只給我一分鐘讓我沒有辦法問沒有辦法提出我的疑問謝謝"},{"start":30913.018,"end":30935.021,"text":"你剛已經講不只1分鐘,已經3分鐘以上了不過我要再次提醒各個部會一定要回去講我們每位委員都關心各個部會剛還有一個部會,某部會還要想要請教每位委員都不准你們請教各個部會的次長以上一定都要來,大家記得喔每位委員都非常關心喔接著我們請李燕秀委員"},{"start":30944.366,"end":30971.405,"text":"好 從今天早上無論是會議詢問或者是程序發言到現在其實已經好幾輪了我覺得更重要的重點是區域立委對於各縣市都有很多不同的意見跟版本我覺得任何一個政策可以透過不斷的討論讓政策更成熟我覺得這就是溝通協調的方式但是我更遺憾的是我有看到民進黨有幾個版本出來"},{"start":30973.146,"end":30990.773,"text":"當然國民黨也有怎麼樣去討論最後就是一個溝通妥協的結果但是更重要的是坐在現場財政部部長不是第一年欸不是第一年欸你們在底下的事務官都多少年今天為財劃法這麼多年來大家都要喊包括過去的賴清德市長過去的行政院長過去的副總統"},{"start":30999.861,"end":31013.946,"text":"每一次選舉回到台南就說要修要修主計長過去也是台南的主計長也很清楚要修怎麼會換了一個位置就換了一個腦袋財換法的修正有沒有財政紀律的問題"},{"start":31016.243,"end":31041.037,"text":"政治苛責、選舉苛責無論中央或地方的首長沒有好好的花錢選民、全國民眾自然有對政治人物苛責的方式採訪法不是不能修怎麼樣去談出一個大家雖不滿意但是勉強可以接受的版本"},{"start":31042.257,"end":31059.606,"text":"這才是最進步的版本但是民進黨現在的做法就是以拖待變不想修這不是現在的民進黨政府包括現在的賴清德總統打臉過去的賴清德市長打臉過去的行政院長打臉蘇貞昌"},{"start":31061.787,"end":31086.167,"text":"打臉潘孟安等等這麼多民進黨的立委過去都喊說要修要修所以我才說歷史真的是一面最好的鏡子可以把民進黨過去跟現在的雙標看得非常的清楚現在民進黨你們可以集體施以沒有關係但是凡走過都必留下痕跡大家都看得到今天我針對台北市我有一個修正的版本出來是針對於16條之一我認為"},{"start":31090.54,"end":31109.897,"text":"大家都可以有不同的意見但是我們透過溝通協調你們也可以針對我的版本可以有不同的意見但沒有關係但是我覺得就是要透過討論法案才有機會更成熟我的想法是針對16條之一特別是六都的部分地方政府財政招商都非常努力包括鼓勵就業"},{"start":31111.318,"end":31121.265,"text":"為增加營利事業的部分應該要把營利事業鼓勵就業的營利事業所得稅額都應該要留在地方這個是我的版本16條之一我們也希望修法之後可以把權重至少維持在50%左右這個是我今天所提出來修正版本也請召委跟各位委員給我們意見跟指教 謝謝"},{"start":31141.979,"end":31159.357,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員吼我們現在第三輪還有四位委員吼那我們現在開放第四輪的委員吼在現場第四輪吼如果要登記第四輪請來登記那我們休息十分鐘讓大家登記吼那等第三輪回答完我們進行第四輪吼好休息十分鐘吼要第四輪趕快來登記吼"},{"start":31781.325,"end":31781.786,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31805.216,"end":31826.025,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席今天非常辛苦然後呢我們也充分的讓所有的委員對於財化法能夠做一些說明那在這邊剛才我之前也特別提到了從這個法令上的依據不管是憲法或者是那個地方制度法"},{"start":31826.565,"end":31848.683,"text":"事上都授予《財化法》它的一個修法。《財化法》它是一個原來就在的法律,不是新的法律。另外,我們也要特別提到,我們剛才很多委員都提到了說除了統籌分配款之外,那麼中央還有給地方包含一般補助款或者是計劃補助款。"},{"start":31851.525,"end":31859.374,"text":"但是不可諱言的即便是在6月5號我們的公聽會非常多的地方政府都提到了這幾年來在整個的財政的分配裡面經常發生中央請客、地方買單"},{"start":31872.629,"end":31899.217,"text":"例如我剛才所提到的我們針對地方的民代的加緊知己條例的提高不管是議員的助理薪水或者是對於里長的春節慰問金或者之前包含軍公教的調薪或者是對於警勤加緊的提高"},{"start":31900.237,"end":31908.639,"text":"那麼非常多的政策是來自於中央宣布但是並沒有給地方一個確定的財源所以大家一直在講說財政具體法很重要很重要啊確實很重要我剛才講了嘛我們的賴詩寶委員在現場"},{"start":31922.682,"end":31925.684,"text":"大家一直說財政紀律法就是由我們賴士寶委員所催生的但是我們這個財政紀律之父啊他對於財化法、財政紀律法都非常清楚所以今天我們很多的所謂的補助款"},{"start":31940.871,"end":31967.475,"text":"其實本來就應該給地方啊因為是你中央這些的政策自行宣布之後然後讓地方來做買單那麼有一些譬如可能財政狀況比較好的六都他還可以指引但是對極大多數的縣市政府當你去宣布了一個政策中央宣布一個政策之後"},{"start":31968.055,"end":31975.257,"text":"他根本連財源在哪裡都不知道所以我們地方現在面臨的問題是他的財政第一個收入不穩定還有他完全沒有辦法去能夠控制他的一個財政的支出我們甚至有一些縣市政府啊"},{"start":31990.842,"end":31992.503,"text":"他連人事費都要仰仗中央的補助款給他。中央補助款不給他,他連人事費、連薪水都發不出來。所以在這樣的一個極度扭曲的中央地方財政的分配結構之下,"},{"start":32012.518,"end":32015.901,"text":"要修正財劃法真的是當務之急那當然財劃法的修正有所謂垂直性就是中央要分多少給地方那麼接下來地方之間的分配有水平的分配"},{"start":32030.754,"end":32032.736,"text":"但是無論如何我覺得今天如果我們執政的我們各位委員如果你去回去聽一聽你自己地方財主單位的心聲你就知道在垂直分配有多麼不公平有多麼地方有多麼希望"},{"start":32051.05,"end":32068.577,"text":"能夠競速競速的能夠加速我們財化法的修正所以在這邊也希望我們今天在座所有關心財化法修正的委員們能夠直接進入今天我們用各種的理由"},{"start":32069.517,"end":32090.547,"text":"主旨財劃法的修正其實最大的受害者仍然是我們所有的地方政府也是尤其我們在整個財政能力比較差、比較弱勢的地方的選民其實他們的受害更深好 以上謝謝謝謝王洪委員 接著請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":32100.121,"end":32101.712,"text":"我們第四輪發言已經登記完畢了"},{"start":32104.758,"end":32129.563,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位同仁我想財劃法從我們上個會期提出來台灣民眾黨的版本其實我們一直很期待財政部還有行政院都能夠善意的回應對於地方政府也好還有立法委員各黨團提出來的版本的回應跟內容那財政部在上個會期也說他們要去查調查我們接下來到底有哪些"},{"start":32130.943,"end":32154.98,"text":"經由哪些項目是可以做這樣的處理也請主計總署去算出來中央政府總預算在多少額度範圍之內不至於影響到中央正式運作但是很遺憾的到現在為止我們沒有看到財政部跟主計總署把上個會期答應財政委員會要做的相關的調查明細提供給委員會做參考這是第一點"},{"start":32155.76,"end":32183.054,"text":"第二個,上個會期所做的相關的決議希望財政部在這個會期能夠提出修法版本至少要有修法的進度報告但現在看起來財政部依然是以地方政府水平分配有很多的爭執所以不願意提出相關的版本這也是我們認為從行政應該要對立法負責的態度上面是一個相當不負責任的態度第三點"},{"start":32184.415,"end":32198.692,"text":"各個版本其實現在都已經在各位的桌上了其實內容都差不了太多那唯一大家一直在爭執說那水平分配可能會因為縣市政府他的需求有一些問題這就是我們希望能夠討論的地方那當然"},{"start":32202.168,"end":32223.299,"text":"主席已經邀請各單位包括各縣市政府都來立法院這邊做說明我們也很期待能夠聽到財政部對每一個水平分配爭點到底在哪裡為什麼有這個爭點他為什麼會分配不公那你們現在的辦法既然是號稱行政院長卓榮泰說是最好的辦法那我一再說"},{"start":32224.48,"end":32252.528,"text":"台灣民眾黨沒有對於版本特別的堅持水平分配的內容我們也希望財政部把你們最好的版本拿出來這個版本我們把它入法如果你現在可以做到你們認為最適合的方法那為什麼不能拿出來在立法院讓立法委員幫你們把你們最好的方法修成所謂水平分配的公式我覺得這個部分是相當的矛盾還是財政部只想把這個權柄放在手上"},{"start":32253.368,"end":32274.466,"text":"我們來自地方議會也來自地方政府每一次中央說要軍工教加薪的那一年當年會給補助第二年以後自己想辦法同樣的中央請客地方買單的案子不勝計數非常非常的多尤其是社會福利方面"},{"start":32275.39,"end":32296.124,"text":"只要中央推一個政策地方政府就要推出相同的預算然後去排擠到更多他們本來想做的事情這才是我們今天要修財劃法的主要原因所以我想還是一樣希望財政部在審查的過程中把你們該答應財政委員會給的資料拜託在慶喜山一定要拿到我們的桌上第二個"},{"start":32296.964,"end":32314.155,"text":"對於你們認為有爭議的部分也請你一一的說明你們碰到的爭議是什麼也許委員們大家可以協助大家一起來解決你們認為沒有辦法達成的共識我覺得在這個殿堂裡面我們是可以理性的來討論而不需要互相的衝突"},{"start":32330.144,"end":32343.022,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進那麼今天一整天還有上一次一整天我們的主席啊這個有那個mercy非常的慈悲的心啊"},{"start":32344.262,"end":32372.813,"text":"讓大家暢所欲言一輪、一輪、一輪、一輪害得大家沒有話也擠話出來。結果今天發現到除了講這些之外,還有一個帽子製造工廠在這個地方出現了。一頂一支帽子丟出來。請教各位啊,財務法修了結果現在南北最大的公司就是中央撥3000億。3000億佔總預算十分之一啊,總預算三兆。"},{"start":32374.888,"end":32400.458,"text":"3000億是要幹什麼?喔!國防預算沒有了!喔!這個健保沒有了!喔!這個沒有了!那個沒有了!這個叫做恐嚇老百姓啦!只是為了民進黨要這個以為他可以長期執政所以拼命的阻擋把這個決定錢交給地方我們都了解今天錢都在那裡錢沒有少啊!"},{"start":32401.62,"end":32416.745,"text":"錢沒有少只是說這個決定權在誰的地方原來中央給你地方政府像乞丐一樣跟他要現在呢有3000億左右不要跟中央要了不要像乞丐一樣背宮屈膝這樣子跟你要了你就給地方錢都在那裡錢沒有少啊各位錢那裡有少公寓上有少嗎沒有啊健保有少嗎沒有啊青菜公共連帽子一定一定送過來"},{"start":32432.655,"end":32439.805,"text":"這個欺騙老百姓也不是這樣欺騙的啦第二點我要強調的今天財政部啊最該受大家的撻伐"},{"start":32440.885,"end":32463.959,"text":"在上個會期結束之前他明明答應了這個會期之前要送財政部的版本到現在也都沒有送然後財政部不斷地說他有個分配公司那你就寫出來啊所以我們講的各位現在用什麼水平分配改不平來反對"},{"start":32465.823,"end":32489.862,"text":"我們就講中央你給我們地方多3000億怎麼分配還是財政部來分配啊為什麼不可以就給你分配吧你有公司就去分配這3000億啊就3000億你分配啊這是第二點我想強調第三點強調包括賴清德總統包括陳其邁市長都要修財劃法"},{"start":32491.084,"end":32502.458,"text":"為什麼各位偉大的委員們拼命在這裡阻擋呢?而且我們要修我們要看人口、面積、財政的努力這個都是原來就是去考慮的"},{"start":32503.581,"end":32527.681,"text":"我這裡特別的強調一個先是他的努力是表現在營業額營業稅營業稅50%最少就按照現在版本現在的版本營業稅50%要放在要給地方50%不能夠再低了最後一點我還是要強調的"},{"start":32529.022,"end":32556.08,"text":"我們在沒有修支錢這個中央不僅僅把權力全部抓走錢全部抓走而且還吃地方政府的豆腐常常通過這個法案剛才有委員提到了軍工就要加薪結果最後都是地方政府在買單啊娛樂稅原來是地方的啊你也是現在說取消啊就地方買單啊就變成除了被你這樣子全部拿走之後還要吃地方政府的豆腐"},{"start":32557,"end":32582.018,"text":"中央請客地方買單這個我們這修裁判法一定要把它修掉我再強調一遍你們用分配公式真的擺不平、隨便擺不平那就按你們的公式你們來處理就好了不需要講這些啦真的只是要滿足你們以為可以長期執政這個球是圓的啦哪一天換國民黨執政啊你們就想不想裁判法啦謝謝"},{"start":32584.934,"end":32587.095,"text":"謝謝主席我剛剛上一輪發言是針對每一個委員的版本16條之一"},{"start":32607.229,"end":32629.402,"text":"那事實上他會針對於有很多項目是需要財政部、內政部甚至還有環境部他有很多指標那這些指標他因為是個別委員的提案可是財政部還是要針對這些委員提案要去讓各縣市至少他們禮拜三來到"},{"start":32630.522,"end":32641.796,"text":"我們這個財政委員會的時候他們有辦法去說明嘛就是說到底什麼是這個因為經濟配合國家經濟發展的污染指標"},{"start":32643.457,"end":32659.467,"text":"那這個指標要定在哪裡那地方政府來的時候比方說高雄市政府來的時候他說因為我們從過去高雄的重工業包括中鋼、中油這樣的一個重工業所造成的污染這個指標"},{"start":32661.388,"end":32688.345,"text":"那財政部才要從這樣的一個基準點去計算未來如果財政收支劃分的時候要如何分配然後可以去彌補過去他們這個污染指標我可以想像大概就是這樣包括我自己的版本我是用農一農二這個國土計劃法雖然國土計劃法現在還沒有上路而且很多縣市的分區工人圖也還沒有提出來所以現在這一個"},{"start":32689.105,"end":32703.947,"text":"光榮一、榮二,未來它的比例是多少,現在似乎也還沒辦法很清楚的知道。那我接下來還要講一件事情就是說,我們的財政,這一個財政規劃法,它到底還有涉及到哪一些法律?"},{"start":32705.083,"end":32716.478,"text":"要配合修法,地方制度法需要嗎?還是地方稅法的通則有沒有需要?這一些相對應的一個法律我覺得財政部也要嘗試去準備資料"},{"start":32722.405,"end":32749.831,"text":"趙偉我具體建議啦我們現在因為都是在做程序發言事實上我們比較期待的還是可以請官員上來我們跟他這個問我們詢問官員然後才有辦法得到答案因為我們現在今天大家一整天的這個程序發言我們得不到這些問題的答案當然主席你一直企圖給大家答案大家就不想聽你的答案嘛不然我等一下要聽你的啦我聽你的"},{"start":32751.411,"end":32764.807,"text":"就是我建議啦,因為白沙開始出陣燈啦,白沙所有的地方會到,所以主席你要不要,你要不要就乾脆才是說我們今天就先休息,因為我們今天,我們沒辦法,我們沒辦法問嘛,我剛剛講,我今天一直在,"},{"start":32773.497,"end":32800.028,"text":"主席 你要第四輪嗎?你先講完啦我來回答好不好?我來回答我來回答我來回答好不好?好啦 好啦 回完了齁我們現在第三輪你發言完畢後我們還有第四輪 今天也登記完畢只有一位郭國偉委員嘛主席 我的意思是說我們就讓財政部我可以讓他們回答但是我要讓郭國偉發言完畢啊你不要登記你取消是不是主席 你發功了嘛 我的意思是說"},{"start":32800.928,"end":32823.141,"text":"主戰場是在13啦我會讓他們發言我會讓他們發言不是說郭文維必須的要不要再問好那你來劃掉啊你來劃掉那你先回去我們把這個程序好你來劃掉啊沒關係沒關係那劃掉劃掉沒關係沒有劃掉你來劃一下嘛因為他有登記我不能剝奪他的權利啊郭文維你要繼續發言嗎沒有啦主席"},{"start":32826.464,"end":32837.391,"text":"主席沒關係啦,就是說我們等一下還是第16,可是我要講的一個重點我會讓他們發言我會讓他們發言是是是,我會讓他們發言,等一下不是,我們不一定要本禮拜,等一下去讓他們發言沒關係各地方政府來,我們也要跟他要討論很多數據今天財政部都來了喔對啊好謝謝今天財政部來,但是他沒有辦法告訴我們我剛剛講的啊,這個汙染指標,重度汙染指標是什麼"},{"start":32855.382,"end":32859.025,"text":"我們現在只有很直白的印象,高雄從過去以來它就承載著台灣的重工業,所以它的空氣污染是相對嚴重的。這都是很直白的印象,可是我們沒有辦法拿到數字。"},{"start":32875.316,"end":32892.108,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":32892.268,"end":32893.348,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":32921.408,"end":32945.022,"text":"我先徵求大家一件事我們第四輪登記完就不要再做第五輪登記了好不好可以嗎?沒意義我們第四輪講完就不要做第五輪登記了已經講很多了也很充分了還有誰要登記?沒有了我們到第四輪登記結束我們就有六十幾位委員今天做會議詢問和誠心發言了好,接著我們就不再登記"},{"start":32946.603,"end":32967.829,"text":"跟各位報告跟我們委員會報告今天的會議詢問就已經有登記還要發言的就有60幾位這樣程序很重 總共有70幾位我想大家就不要再進行第5輪了好 那就這樣子接著我們這一輪我們請郭國文委員第4輪的"},{"start":32977.608,"end":32990.58,"text":"我看到主席笑眯眯,我當然就不想看剛剛我聆聽了剛剛幾位委員的高見他們同時講到一句話也就是所謂的中央請客地方買單這八個字"},{"start":32993.823,"end":33014.979,"text":"這個剛剛對照於我剛才提的所謂的長久以來中央的這個計劃型補助啊常態化的狀況是不是要下放給地方其實是一體兩面的這就是我之前一再強調的中央跟地方的這個府紀關係要如何形成要如何形成一個所謂的夥伴的關係"},{"start":33016.394,"end":33043.741,"text":"那我們提到啊所謂的這個城鄉發展計畫當中呢它不過是變了八次名稱每次都是中央的計畫然後補助給地方那我要問那這是中央在請客還是地方在請客啊很顯然不是地方請客嘛那或許有一些案例是屬於地方負擔的比較多這也就是中央跟地方大家要釐清清楚這些事權"},{"start":33044.841,"end":33069.978,"text":"在制度面上當中有討論的空間這也說為什麼更加印證了我們一再強調再次的呼籲、三次的懇求為什麼要把四權放在一起一個最關鍵的一個原因可是我們剛剛聽到主席所裁示的內容當中啊往往都只是找各部門代表來而已"},{"start":33070.939,"end":33086.734,"text":"其實也沒有真正回應我們說呢,要如何從事權、財權、財權、事權、事權、財權、人與事、事與人之間的一個關聯性當中來做一個整體性、通盤性的一個探討,沒有!"},{"start":33087.595,"end":33116.156,"text":"沒有的情況底下,背後隱藏一個目的跟規劃不外乎是要趕快的把這一個法條復足於足條討論但是我還是必須說這一個條文當中的內容其實真的是令人杞人一逗我們就直接來談內容當中按照國民黨的版本當中剛剛賴委員提到所謂的3000多億,老實講我沒有看到這個版本"},{"start":33117.168,"end":33137.564,"text":"是他自己說的,確實有傳聞,聯合報確實有報,但是版本內容還沒出來。黃珊珊委員的版本是2700億,賴委員的版本一下子是3208,也一下子又4028,一下子又5777,但是換算於明年的比例是6612,總共有4個數字之多。"},{"start":33140.866,"end":33165.215,"text":"讓人家眼花繚亂不知所措到底國民黨是哪個版本但是如果就國民黨的版本條文當中所出來的結果無外乎這修法當中有8個縣市的自有財源稅出比率居然高達100%高達100%包括台北市、宜蘭縣、苗栗縣、彰化縣、南投縣、基隆市、新竹市、金門市很巧"},{"start":33166.435,"end":33193.581,"text":"這全部 全部 全部講到金門你就站起來 麥 金門縣 金門市是縣金門縣 金明縣 謝謝你的執政 很巧 這都是南白執政的縣市這麼好 有夠厲害可是最低的部分呢 在六都當中呢 最少的是哪裡就是台南 就是台南高雄是第二低 縣市最低的是哪裡 是嘉義"},{"start":33195.373,"end":33219.65,"text":"還有彭胡就很巧的最高的部分都是藍白執政最低的部分呢全部是綠營執政真是巧妙的設計啊所以我要說的是說這些版本內容當中不是有杞人疑鬥的地方嗎我就在找一個縣市的這個比較來讓主席知道這個版本內容有多麼誇張"},{"start":33221.511,"end":33246.307,"text":"以台南市來說他現在人口數是高達186萬人彰化縣是123萬人以現行的資金分配配了結果修法之後呢台南呢只配到476億彰化呢配到510人口數多50萬的地方多63萬的地方居然啊還少了34億"},{"start":33248.868,"end":33275.411,"text":"這個真的很誇張欸這套數學是怎麼算的啊雖然我叫國文我不叫數學就結果來看我也覺得是不合理嘛不是嗎主席你有沒有到底看過你們未來的版本啊你不覺得很多難以說服外界的廢話嗎為什麼版本你還能夠推上台面呢為什麼版本還如此青睞呢你要想一想你要想一想"},{"start":33275.911,"end":33302.862,"text":"我要告訴你,你要想一想,這個版本只會破壞體制而已啦!你要不要登記第五輪,我先想一下沒關係。好,這個第四輪等一下,第四輪登記發言的我都已經發言完畢啦。那我們現在問問看有沒有人要登記第五輪。"},{"start":33313.11,"end":33314.191,"text":"有沒有委員要繼續登記發言?"},{"start":33336.011,"end":33360.944,"text":"這個齁,剛剛我們今天齁,這個會議詢問跟程序發言還有連上市齁,今天已經發言70,快70位委員了啦齁,我想大家可能那個,那本次會我們就做,我們就採釋說不要再登記什麼會議詢問跟這個程序發言啦齁,沒有意見了啦齁,無意喔,無意就不要再,對,等一下我要講嘛齁,無意喔齁,那剛剛已經宣布到晚上,那我們是不是休息讓大家吃晚餐,晚上再繼續回來開會齁,好,休息吃飯"},{"start":33370.35,"end":33372.091,"text":"現在休息吃晚餐晚上再回來齁你不是要問他們回來我會讓你問他們你不是要問嗎等一下晚上回來問嗎沒有晚上回來問沒關係晚上開到12點嘛等一下回來吃飯快點回來繼續問啊阿你不是要問嗎"},{"start":33401.255,"end":33410.866,"text":"不用啦今天應該一直開沒關係他們本來就應該知道數字好不好晚上吃完飯回來再繼續讓蔡委員再繼續問你不爭氣我也沒辦法"},{"start":40899.619,"end":40905.225,"text":"今天還不夠 繼續開 等一下等一下等官員回來我們等 叫官員回來吧 官員回來我們繼續開那個聯絡人呢 叫官員回來 他們還在示範是不是 那我們等他一下我們等 等官員回來"},{"start":41093.983,"end":41096.945,"text":"五點五十二分五點五十二分的時候我跟妳走到門口"},{"start":41113.876,"end":41132.171,"text":"我問你我請教你幾點回來開會你也不肯說我說所有的官員跟我們說立法委員都要等你然後你頭也不回就走了對不起你沒有正式宣布你完全沒有正式宣布所有的官員都在等你"},{"start":41134.872,"end":41153.138,"text":"你們去吊袋子看看吊袋子出來看吊袋子出來所有的人都在等你下午有宣告晚上有晚上繼續看沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告沒有暫時宣告"},{"start":41166.786,"end":41191.859,"text":"早上有講、下午有講、下午也要講、下午有講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講、下午也要講"},{"start":41196.101,"end":41204.37,"text":"我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!我有宣告!"},{"start":41211.178,"end":41238.675,"text":"那沒關係我們等他們嘛沒關係嘛你完全都沒有說沒關係我們等他們回來沒關係請問你有什麼要再等他們回來可以時間都不說頭也不合就只是一句話你要去吃飯叫我們留在這裡吃便當等你我沒有情理在這裡吃便當我沒有情理在這邊吃便當啊你又不是本委員會他現在早就不在了因為你沒有財政我沒有情理在這邊吃便當啊你要去哪裡吃飯我都沒有意見我們在這裡晚上我以後晚上要開到12點了"},{"start":41241.237,"end":41246.842,"text":"你去問施法人當主席的時候去修寫的時候不要宣布什麼時候回來你去問他之前的那你就回答我"},{"start":41256.21,"end":41277.587,"text":"我也在會議結尾,會議結尾是12點,我宣布是晚上12點,我有宣布,今天宣布3次,你去看一下,如果沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有"},{"start":41278.988,"end":41279.188,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":41299.419,"end":41320.599,"text":"什麼是我的?你們不要隨便對主席啊!摘張說你是主席!我有宣告!我還問你要不要講第五輪、第六輪?有沒有?對啊!你們都不講我也沒辦法,我們休息一下,等一下休息要回來繼續講嘛!我一直有講說要開到12點我現在回來沒有開始,我們現在只是在討論"},{"start":41321.892,"end":41344.963,"text":"因為官員都不在我們等官員好不好我們現在休息等官員嘛官員我要通知阿那我們不回來就不要開始是嗎他們如果不回來我只有我的方法喔沒有什麼什麼時候就要等官員阿官員不來我們就在這個可能公開發譴責說我們無故這樣消失阿沒有阿"},{"start":41345.723,"end":41371.156,"text":"莫名其妙是主席無故相失全部的官員在這裡等你是全部的官員在這裡等你一個人選飲吃大餐你現在說是官員不見太過分了吧是你自己把整個委員會拋下你自己把整個委員會拋下跑去吃大餐現在官員不見我們現在回來就要通知他們嗎"},{"start":41373.237,"end":41381.643,"text":"等你一個大小姐!等你一個大小姐!愛回來就回來,不回來不回來嗎?你把全部的官員當什麼?"},{"start":41383.905,"end":41392.928,"text":"我們中午也是有休息,我們今天開了一整天...陳委員你一個人這樣審議,你一個人這樣審議,全部的官員要派人家回來陳委員你派人家回來,我們等官員回來,我們今天開到12點啊,我們就等啊,大家繼續等,你們繼續等什麼東西?你剛剛說什麼?"},{"start":41409.616,"end":41431.374,"text":"我們現在沒有開始開會我們通知官員回來所以官員怎麼可能在那邊痴痴的等呢當主席你什麼時候回來你怎麼會不曉得你吃一頓飯什麼時間會不能講嗎表定是12點啊表定是12點啊12點我剛才有宣布你不在現場"},{"start":41433.106,"end":41448.536,"text":"我有宣布今天開到12點還問大家有沒有意見要講繼續講講到12點今天講了至少3次媒體記者都在媒體記者都在有沒有聽到我說到12點你們看錄影帶你們沒有正式處理時間嗎主秘在旁邊啊主秘你回答"},{"start":41457.881,"end":41472.191,"text":"總理你回答啊!他有暫時處理時間!好!我還說沒有意見,我們就開到12點還沒有,你們不是要繼續講啊?5點半!5點半!5點半還在插言好不好?第3輪第4輪還在講你知道嗎?5點半第4輪還在講欸!你都有上去講欸!5點半還在講啊!還在講欸!講完之後就被委員宣佈啊!你不要堵死,你就沒關係啦!"},{"start":41484.284,"end":41510.192,"text":"主秘在旁邊你剛剛就叫我問他他將近5點半會議時間的時候主席有處理時間說今天開會延長然後到12點請與他我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同仁我同�"},{"start":41518.276,"end":41523.639,"text":"他明明在啊!那你為什麼要說人家不在呢?當主席也有那麼大啊!"},{"start":41532.656,"end":41535.298,"text":"五點半的時候你們有正式宣布嗎?"},{"start":41560.165,"end":41576.454,"text":"你沒有正式宣布說要開到12點你就是這樣子你就是把他納入評論裡怎麼會是你最久了?我待了比你還久咧?吳秉瑞就是吳秉瑞現行犯吼在哪裡?現在在哪裡?"},{"start":41590.155,"end":41596.86,"text":"等到再等他,不缺不繼續開會時間的時間就剩了,所以就請麻煩十月休息時間,所有人"},{"start":41623.999,"end":41636.965,"text":"最多人、男生、女女欺負一個陳玉珍欺負官員好不好欺負官員阿丟臉阿丟臉阿丟臉阿還敢講吳志瑤他可以掉拍我嗎不可以"},{"start":41654.426,"end":41665.297,"text":"我今天開了一整天的會哦,我沒有飯,中間休息,我一起來聊天休息吃飯,我中午請大家休息吃飯,因為今天開了一整天從早上9點到下午,中午休息吃飯,中午才去休息吃飯"},{"start":41677.244,"end":41694.787,"text":"總統總統總統總統總統總統總統"},{"start":41711.493,"end":41719.224,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":42215.356,"end":42219.052,"text":"主席 現在開會人數已足 可以宣布開會嗎"},{"start":42221.618,"end":42245.523,"text":"主席,你剛剛不是說你們要請官員回來嗎?欸,等一下,那你黨團坐一下,說現在不用官員我們可以開會,我就開始開奇怪了,你請回到你的那裡,你有你的無線麥克風,會議時間開始了,可以開會嗎?大家都在這裡等你兩個多小時,你去吃完大餐回來,人數已夠你可以宣布開會,請回到您的開會"},{"start":42247.203,"end":42271.464,"text":"你可以現在等你兩個小時你可以宣布我們都在這裡等啊我們都在等你開會啊你現在要等著國民黨的委員你要繞人回來啊誰不知道你現在在等人要繞國民黨的委員回來又要強行表決通過啊陳玉珍就是現在在等人啊你在繞你們國民黨的人回來是嗎你現在請宣告開會啊"},{"start":42273.157,"end":42274.04,"text":"開會人數已足勤宣布正式恢復開會啊你人都已經回來了"},{"start":42279.888,"end":42308.156,"text":"現場已經抽過開會人數請宣布開會好嗎?我會尊重我們市議會委員的說法等一下我們就開會不用官員嗎?你們黨要不要寫一個意思來?官員也是你請走的官員也是你請走的官員是我請走的我現在請他們走全財委會的人都等你一個人開心離開就離開開心離開就回來你把所有委員在這裡等你回來大聲嗎?你現在可以開會你要代表民進黨才能說可以開會是嗎?"},{"start":42309.156,"end":42315.24,"text":"李昆彤委員認為人數到就可以開會好那你們可以寫一張給我他等一下不要有意見嘛"},{"start":42338.956,"end":42364.226,"text":"你們寫一張說沒有官員可以開會我們就開始啊你們寫一張說沒有官員可以開會我們就開始主席你不要亂了開會人數已足啊你哪一張給過你代表黨團寫一張說沒有人數可以開會主席你是會議的主席沒有官員可以嗎你是會議的主席可以嗎你是會議的主席所以我們是主體沒有官員可以開會喔好那如果你們在場都這樣我們就開始啊你們你確定可以開會"},{"start":42366.307,"end":42387.728,"text":"好,不用官員就對是不是?不用官員嗎?我叫他們,所以我等他們一下啊!可以開會喔!沒有,會議詢問剛剛已經做了5次了!大家說不要了!不是,會議詢問剛剛大家已經決定說都不再會詢問,都第五輪了啊!你們都不要啊!"},{"start":42390.209,"end":42403.964,"text":"這都是一次會我剛問說今天這個我說這個第1次會你們還要不要再做會議許願要不要再做程序花園你們都不要啊我有問你們我有問說大家還要不要大家都說不要"},{"start":42405.427,"end":42434.194,"text":"沒有啦,你先告訴我,如果沒官員開會我們就開會嗎?沒有官員可以開會嗎?可不可以開會?可以啦,過半數,過半數沒關係,最主要...所以沒有官員過半數就可以開會是不是?你確認一下,你們協商給我,不然等下說話不算話你們協商說沒有官員,沒關...不是,我今天慶福休業又錄影你們又不認...不是會啊會啊禮拜三都沒到,你怎麼知道我禮拜三不會讓你問你為什麼現在在預知禮拜三的事情我會讓你禮拜三問啊"},{"start":42435.254,"end":42453.026,"text":"我沒有改變阿你禮拜三一定要來問不要忘記齁我沒有說禮拜三不讓你問阿禮拜三都沒有到你怎麼會說我不讓你禮拜三問我說禮拜今天會開到12我離開的時候我說我說12點我一直在說12點我說會開到12點對所以我有我一直"},{"start":42467.211,"end":42484.078,"text":"來,你注意聽我覺得你們很...啊,那我可以回答你問題了齁我剛剛說我們現在有財政部,我們就先問財政部禮拜三有地方關,其他部分你們可以繼續問啊我有說不讓你們問嗎?對,那我有說禮拜三不讓你們問嗎?有的先問啊"},{"start":42488.826,"end":42502.751,"text":"全部的人等你一個人吃飽喝足回來,你還不開會?全部的人等你一個人吃飽喝足回來,你可以上工了嗎?你可以上工了嗎?你可以全部恢復開會,你可以上工了嗎?"},{"start":42513.355,"end":42540.673,"text":"那請國道主席去宣布重新開會啊 恢復開會啊我要宣布我要宣布 你們就坐下來是要等多久你吃飽喝足 廁所也上了 脾氣牢騷也發了 你還要怎麼樣啊你是要不要開會咧 是要還是不要 要大家就坐好好不好我們讓大家坐下來吼 要開會就坐下來吼好 坐下來 坐下來吼 大家坐下來好好地講嘛"},{"start":42543.447,"end":42549.569,"text":"本委員喔 等一下看一下等一下我們會帥沒關係等一下我來帥沒關係等一下大家先坐好好不好"},{"start":42625.307,"end":42651.965,"text":"最不尊重官員就是陳玉珍自己跑去吃大餐丟官員在現場等你沒有啦我們本來就可以了啦不行啦不行啦哪有本來就是都要發在這邊了啦尊重不是一切聽你的才是尊重我都還沒有開講他就一直在那邊插嘴這樣幹嘛對不對"},{"start":42656.395,"end":42658.736,"text":"每一位誰沒有?你們是不是可以一個給他?"},{"start":42681.806,"end":42698.095,"text":"不是,那我們先稍微協商一下,那個現在官員不在,我要問,你們讓我問一下嘛,不能私下先協商,不然開始又開始吵架,馬上就停了,又幹嘛呢?我先問你們,是不是官員不在,大家也覺得可以?"},{"start":42699.936,"end":42724.736,"text":"你們說話,剛剛都已經做過這些,今天早上就宣布不要了早上就問說,剛剛已經做結束,這些今天都已經做過了,會議詢問也好,程序發言也好都說今天不要,因為剛剛要問第五輪,結果都沒人要問啊第四輪嘛,你有登記第五輪的咧第五輪要登記,你們說要休息"},{"start":42725.436,"end":42738.082,"text":"阿你等的話你不是不登記嗎?沒有阿你們要休息我幹嘛要登記阿大家叫我不要講阿大家沒有沒有主席有問有問大家還要不要去發言還要不要那個會議詢問有這個都有會議這個都有錄影啦沒問題的"},{"start":42746.437,"end":42746.897,"text":"會議詢問會議詢問要哪一個官員回來"},{"start":42773.951,"end":42778.975,"text":"他們進來了嗎?我們等一下嗎?還是我們不用他們也可以開始?你們寫一張紙跟我轉個彎就可以開始"},{"start":42781.974,"end":42801.339,"text":"你們如果...因為你們不...我不是,但是你是一直沒有今天都在這裡因為我們今天真的主持了一天...我早上也有說要開到晚上12點啊!我下午也有說要開到12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我下午也有說要開到晚上12點!我"},{"start":42811.022,"end":42832.977,"text":"不是你聽我講如果造成這種慣例以後我們立法院會被貶低官員不在還是說我們不用你們寫一張紙來給我我同意阿如果民進黨團都同意我們以後沒有官員我們自己開我也很願意阿我們又不願意喔我是要尊重大家的意見那我們黨黨幹部也在不是要你有在嘛你是不是覺得說我們官員可以開始那我們就可以那你是不是寫一張來"},{"start":42835.038,"end":42852.309,"text":"現在人數已經變了你就宣布開會宣布開會完之後再來講那些程序的問題好不好我們現在在做事前的會前會的協商我們要沒有什麼會前會阿沒有協商了阿當然要想因為沒有官員我怕這樣開始會造成我就說會議開始"},{"start":42853.8,"end":42876.889,"text":"對不起,如果貴黨團有給我一張紙,因為我早上也沒有,所以今天沒有嘛,就是沒有,所以馬上就找到官員一定要說話啦。不是,但是沒有官員是不是要開始開會呢?早上,這是哪一個部會?你已經回來那麼久了。啊其他部會呢?部長回來了嗎?請他們,請等一下,我們去請一下吧。"},{"start":42877.56,"end":42899.541,"text":"已經回來那麼久了他們要不要坐在這裡?他們是不是坐在這邊啊?給他們坐給他們坐給他們坐沒有開會那個不坐啊他坐好我們再開會你不要緊張嘛緊張什麼啊?誰緊張?是不是緊張啊?一點都不緊張你不要那麼緊張啊對不對?我都笑著跟你講話捏"},{"start":42901.587,"end":42929.413,"text":"到底要不要開會啊?要啊!你沒有等部長!欸!他嫌你們走得太慢啦!你們是不是開步一下?一下一下!要請!要坐這邊啦!因為今天是要主條要坐這邊啦!奇怪!你不是說要讓我問!那怎麼現在主條?我沒有不讓你問啊!誰告訴你主條不能問欸!誰說要主條啊?我啊!我是主席!今天本來鐵牌三天會讓你們做主條!我們是要等到禮拜三講完啊!誰說要主條啊?"},{"start":42932.649,"end":42933.215,"text":"誰說要主條啊?"},{"start":42934.966,"end":42951.871,"text":"什麼時候變主條了?今年三年會議就是一直往前推進,大家不用懷疑沒有主條的道理嘛已經說禮拜三要討論完再討論了,怎麼會還有主條呢?主條討論也是討論,主條可以每一條...我以下承認,我說主條可以討論很久禮拜三相關單位要來備詢討論完以後才會有所謂的法案的審查的...備詢早就過了,你還在睡覺啊沒有,那禮拜三...禮拜三...沒有,不是備詢,交換意見"},{"start":42964.494,"end":42969.427,"text":"要問他們,早上就講了很多了,現在可能只是薯條,哪有薯條的道理?"},{"start":42974.215,"end":43001.186,"text":"沒有竹條哪有竹條啊!禮拜三說要找相關單位來你還叫相關單位的版本要準備哪有什麼竹條的道理?沒錯啊!那這樣也是可以竹條的啊!對啊沒有準備啊!都沒有討論啊!法條都還沒有通過相關的法令今天討論那麼多!對不對?我們今天討論那麼多就是要討論所有其他的意見來考慮這個財法法的問題啊!這些都還沒有完成怎麼會進入竹條的道理呢?你根本是預設立場嘛!"},{"start":43004.448,"end":43020.643,"text":"你根本是預設立場哪有這種道理主席部長坐好可以開始我要會議詢問啊等一下我還沒宣布開始你急什麼我就等你啊等你開始啊你笑話完了沒對你請等一下我可以了嗎好官員都來了嗎主要的官員都來了嗎"},{"start":43026.09,"end":43054.148,"text":"我確認一下各單位的你們我先確認等一下開口我先確認一下你要確認也是要宣布開會才確認呢這個會前準備大家不用擔心會前準備什麼準備了一整天了你一整天都沒有在這裡是一整天都在這裡你沒有一整天在這裡喔你是主席待在這邊剛好而已阿不然你就不要當主席阿我會待在這裡不用擔心我會陪大家到12點大家不用擔心我們要開到12點大家不用擔心"},{"start":43055.189,"end":43058.691,"text":"各位大家都知道要開到12點喔齁"},{"start":43082.79,"end":43109.94,"text":"來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?各位來自我們看一下,哪個部會?"},{"start":43111.715,"end":43113.056,"text":"還有一個在這裡。不好意思。"},{"start":43151.299,"end":43154.828,"text":"簽訂的《立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查"},{"start":43184.497,"end":43213.456,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":43221.044,"end":43226.39,"text":"早上就確認過出席了他在等國民黨的人回來"},{"start":43254.227,"end":43270.484,"text":"誰要求啊?你朝委開始就開始啦,誰要求?你這樣最重要啊,你把他吊著不管跑去吃起來燈你不是重要啦,你是不可或缺啦"},{"start":43278.213,"end":43279.035,"text":"喜來針喜來針"},{"start":43288.73,"end":43295.635,"text":"我們都不需要被你尊重嗎?我們坐在這裡等你這麼久了"},{"start":43317.632,"end":43342.853,"text":"要尊重啊!你剛剛說官員我要轉,還沒嘛!等一下,休息一下,不要急!休息一下,休息很久了!又不是不開!不要12點,你以前就要說上位好不好,12點,要開到12點了!趕快開!你們撐到12點,我才相信你!我可以撐到天亮啦!天亮不重要啦,這個今天的會只到12點!"},{"start":43345.267,"end":43374.391,"text":"好啦!你趕快啦!到底要不要開會啊?等他簽完好不好?裝模作樣裝什麼模作樣?簽完了嗎?慢慢來沒關係欸!慢慢來沒關係!這不就裝模作樣?你什麼都不要講,喊開會就行了裝模作樣沒有啦,上週聚焦的是郭委員,他不用看什麼是你"},{"start":43378.086,"end":43388.094,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團擬具:「財政收支劃分法：繼續審查財政收支劃分法：繼續審查財政收支劃分法：繼續審查財政收支劃分法：繼續審查"},{"start":43412.534,"end":43437.568,"text":"會議詢問"},{"start":43438.991,"end":43446.944,"text":"我為什麼不能再問?我會議許願每次都可以問!然後我說休息之後就不能問!有這種規定喔!沒有這個決議啦!會議許願什麼時間都可以問啊!"},{"start":43452.15,"end":43475.945,"text":"什麼決議?五點五十五點五十不符合規定現在陳宇甄好緊張喔!全天下都在等國民黨的委員急扣回來!不是啦!不用擔心!全部人就在這裡等你!在這邊!我根本就不緊張好不好!五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五、四、五"},{"start":43476.786,"end":43483.353,"text":"我一個人就可以敵你們全部我一個人就可以宣佈開會啊宣佈開會是我的權利不是你的權利你聽懂沒有誰是主席主席"},{"start":43495.859,"end":43521.485,"text":"對!不要!我是主席!我宣布開會不是你宣布開會啊!我宣布開會不是你宣布開會啊!就是在等你宣布啊!就是在等你宣布啊!全天下的人在等你宣布開會啊!法定人數...我在等官員好不好?我在看誰還沒有來好不好?"},{"start":43523.234,"end":43542.164,"text":"官員我要看一下誰沒有來,我問他們是不是要來?你在等國民黨的立委來啦,不是在等官員啦!我在等立委,等一下!還在講什麼什麼一敢就立委,來啦來啦!開會啦!開會啦!開會啦!在等國民黨的立委來啦!你不是在等官員啦!我在幫你在演廣!開會啦!開會啦!來來來!開會啦!那就趕快開吧!李坤澄在吵什麼?開會就好,開會我們就開吵啦!"},{"start":43553.752,"end":43554.313,"text":"不要再牽拖了好不好"},{"start":43572.571,"end":43581.574,"text":"法治署的處長還沒有到,我再詢問部長說,他是不是,你請等一下吧,我再詢問他一下,說他要發展。我剛也沒有請他們回去,不然他們還要再跑一趟,我也沒辦法啊,對不對,這不是我的錯啊,好冤喔,不知道為什麼有人在亂下指令,太糟糕了。"},{"start":43595.197,"end":43618.055,"text":"你們去起來吧!我去跑下車!我也請大家去吃飯,我沒有叫大家不要吃飯好不好?好,這個,那個法制處處長是會過來嗎?還是沒辦法還是怎樣?我們知道一下嗎?聯絡一下我們要等到法制處長來訪問啦!法制處,今天我們要修法,財政部法制處很重要!沒有說官員有一個人沒有來我們台會嗎?"},{"start":43622.443,"end":43623.523,"text":"五點五十的會議還不見得有效"},{"start":43648.063,"end":43667.621,"text":"不好意思,我不是在5點50才宣布,我在之前就宣布,然後一直問你主委大家開刀沒有,你那自言自語,自言自語,啊我們現在調給你看啊你們現在調,你們現在調,你們現在調我們再繼續討論自言自語哪有經過我們的同意啊你就是自言自語"},{"start":43671.611,"end":43690.203,"text":"結果你們也沒有人敢跟陳玉珍賭啊!你們誰來跟陳玉珍賭啊!你們也是來賭啊!陳玉珍!我跟你賭!你要10萬票勒!你剛才講小公平!不然你就沒有政治的一個宣布!"},{"start":43691.664,"end":43700.748,"text":"每個地方有大的城市有小的城市啊你是欺負離島居民人掃就對了是不是大家比得票率好不好我得65.28你要不要開會啦你要比這個比什麼啦"},{"start":43710.532,"end":43726.326,"text":"你很幼稚喔!你很中二喔!是你們在比啊!趕快!趕快!我有事情要問部長,我趕快可以!我也要問,讓我問一下,這個,請問那個姚處長是要來不來,怎麼樣?他會來嗎?等一下喔!他要再等!"},{"start":43733.912,"end":43756.466,"text":"財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常重要財政不法支出非常"},{"start":43763.375,"end":43787.722,"text":"知道你跟我心有靈犀啦我覺得很不舒服我也是有這種感覺你知道嗎只是我不好意思講你吃完大蒜回來都半個小時了還很快開始"},{"start":43795.56,"end":43795.94,"text":"五點五十"},{"start":43817.695,"end":43831.683,"text":"大概要多久?我們知道一下,我們看要不要等?大概知道一下齁?稍微知道一下要不要等我?我看一下,如果10分鐘等一下,太久的話我一定要等10分鐘好了?10分鐘好了?沒有,我要看補給會銷,所以我應該已經拿到要看國民黨的委員來了沒有?10分鐘嗎?當成8點到今天就過了40分鐘嗎?不要讓人家開那個,大概處長要多久?"},{"start":43836.281,"end":43836.983,"text":"市長你可以代理嗎?"},{"start":43848.034,"end":43874.926,"text":"第一次有部長來的還要等處長來才能開會的法制數嘛我覺得法制數也蠻重要的因為它有想法然後大家已經等這麼久要開到12點不用急所以大家也不要這麼稍安勿躁齁因為我們剛剛也他就可能不知道去哪裡我們稍微等一下看多久我等他回報一下好不好看到底要不要等好不好回報一下齁法制數是你指派的欸你們大家可以還沒開始研看手上的資料可以看一下你吃飯的時候我們都看過了好很認真的鬧"},{"start":43880.794,"end":43881.114,"text":"主席"},{"start":43917.887,"end":43926.052,"text":"部長你就自己決定,如果你能夠處理就不用等到處長來了好不好這樣等等等是要等到哪個時候?"},{"start":43932.906,"end":43945.933,"text":"等你喔?還是等柯總召?等柯總召還等你啊?裝傻什麼?看起來天真無邪嗎?"},{"start":43975.888,"end":43991.611,"text":"他處長是要不要來啊?不是啊,不來,部長都來了,還要等一個處長我第一次遇到這種事情所以我等一下,我等一下是要問部長,我又不會去問處長"},{"start":43992.984,"end":44000.711,"text":"不會宣布什麼時候開會啊回來又不開那是怎樣啊?開會有那麼難喔?開會啦宣布開會那麼難喔?"},{"start":44026.263,"end":44026.763,"text":"我們在等什麼?"},{"start":44057.984,"end":44072.319,"text":"有要等處長來嗎?部長你自己決定就好啦,還要等處長來嗎?對不起,是我決定,主席是我決定,那你決定什麼?我一定要等處長,因為他沒有告訴我多久,如果他可以告訴我多久,我就可以知道多久主席是我,是我決定"},{"start":44076.601,"end":44105.721,"text":"因為這個財政部的法制處處長你剛剛休息的時候你也沒有宣布休息多久啊對啦所以我也沒有宣布開始大家也不用急我也不會趁你們離開的時候宣布開始不用擔心阿所以阿所以處長要多久來阿我不知道他沒有告訴我阿有人有聯絡處長嗎處長是要多久來阿如果他沒有聯絡上的話就不要來了阿有沒有人在聯絡有人在聯絡嗎阿沒有他如果"},{"start":44110.336,"end":44129.327,"text":"全部人要等一個處長回去也很奇怪捏我們可以先開始嗎?我們可以先開始嗎?主席就可以決定了啦,不要推給處長啦那個處長也是戴罪羔羊啦,你是在等你的國民黨立委啦國民黨立委當然更好,沒有來我也不是不能處理你們這些人,你以為你們很厲害嗎?來來來處理啊你不用擔心好不好?"},{"start":44130.888,"end":44140.535,"text":"我既然敢坐在這裡就是不怕各位我們就是民主時代多多討論嘛好不好不要急大家有耐性今天會開到12點你們不要也沒關係我們會繼續開好不好"},{"start":44148.097,"end":44169.944,"text":"你可能沒有注意我今天早上中午下午都不停的在講今天要開到晚上問大家有沒有意見尤其剛剛在那個想說第四輪第五輪的時候都有問我有問我問大家有沒有意見我還記得我說如果沒我以後要開到明年這樣就算了"},{"start":44170.604,"end":44193.145,"text":"對不起,我有問大家有沒有意義,我說沒有意義我們這樣,我有問,我有問,我肯定我有問,你可以去調出錄影帶,本席有問,我非常祝,因為我們有很好的醫事人員有跟我提醒,你們可以去調,你們也可以調啊,我可以調,你們調完再來啊,開始啊,如果你們覺得這開始是不合法,結休息是不合法,你們調錄影帶來給我看啊,可以調錄影帶過來,歡迎大家調錄影帶過來。"},{"start":44195.56,"end":44196.161,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":44218.398,"end":44241.465,"text":"我有問真的我還問說有沒有異議無異議我們就繼續開開到晚上12點我想其實在場的今天開會不是只有委員也不是只有官員還有包括這麼多媒體在這裡我一直在說今天要開到12點我不相信沒有人聽到吃午飯的時候講說我們今天要開到12點這樣也有算嗎下午也有說我下午也有說下午說我走到哪跑去買三明治當"},{"start":44242.245,"end":44266.983,"text":"三明治當典新他們也有說不是沒有說大家不要沒有耐心好不好要正式處理議會會議時間有我再說而且延長的時候我有問問的時候我又再問我這一次我這個延長開會到12點至少問了3次4次以上我也問吳秉瑞委員是你沒有在現場因為你不知道跑去哪裡我不知道我尊重你跑行程賴思寶也不在"},{"start":44269.464,"end":44293.362,"text":"羅明才也不在!袁昆龍也不在!你為什麼不點名?因為你現在回答我才回答你啊!如果他們現在問我也會回答他們啊!你一直在跟我講說我那個明明你沒在現場你一直要杜撰沒有的事情啊!對不對?他有看袋子我也...不然你拿來給我看一下啊!我都要跟你對賭你都不敢你只敢摔東西對不對?破壞公務我也沒有辦法對不對?我們都不會做破壞公務的事情啊!"},{"start":44294.352,"end":44322.344,"text":"你們的門都拆了,連那個釘子都釘進來了,他不敢破壞公務,連錢都不賠勒看到沒有?時間看到沒有?還有,後面還有嗎?阿你這矇矇死自己在那邊自言自語就算了阿沒有,我後面還有阿,後面還有阿你真的沒有問我嗎?後面還有哪一段?"},{"start":44324.656,"end":44351.076,"text":"沒有,我現在看到就是沒有啊後面哪有,就這樣子而已啊你不能說我找到你就說沒有啊,不然你去找啊,你不要叫你們自己的黨團去找不用找,我相信有啊,是你們覺得沒有啊所以他們隨便你相信有,我找...體證責任在你啦你就直接下來休息,真的啦,我沒騙你啦,你自己去看你把整段調出來啦整段啊,調給他看整段調給我啦調給你看你現在調我過去看一遍好啦你過去看反正你現在還沒有在開會你可以過去看啊我過去看好了"},{"start":44363.613,"end":44374.984,"text":"以後坐在主席台上面講早上8點半開、9點開始開會如果要開到明天早上12點、明天中午12點,自己在那邊自言自語就算了"},{"start":44380.396,"end":44390.304,"text":"你哪有問誰有沒有意義?大家有沒有意義這句話找出來?因為那時候這個議員很提醒我說要問要說要看到晚上"},{"start":44404.191,"end":44420.467,"text":"會議要結束的時間之前,要正式的處理議會的會議的時間你早上講的有算喔?中午講的有算喔?當然是會議到5點半是將近5點半的時候要處理會議時間啊"},{"start":44429.853,"end":44447.981,"text":"等21人等22人等22人等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等28人等28人等29人等30人等30人等40人等40人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人等50人"},{"start":44456.995,"end":44461.969,"text":"二、本院全體委員會第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查"},{"start":44468.061,"end":44487.169,"text":"因為他這裡面有提到財政收支劃分法調集、有什麼軍人區、發展委員但是因為水平分配方式都還沒有確定,所以我們希望這個地方能夠保留有羅明財政委員、徐宇甄委員、還有洪孟楷委員沒有處理會議時間啦"},{"start":44495.944,"end":44514.492,"text":"等23人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員"},{"start":44524.196,"end":44528.719,"text":"對阿正常就是讓每個都有發言的機會阿"},{"start":44551.431,"end":44557.897,"text":"其實他沒有輪到他不要用麥克風在下面講話我今天待的時間算長嘛我算很認真聽你們在講話的人問那一次吧林德武什麼時候來啦 這個比較實在啦你要不要我問問"},{"start":44570.367,"end":44576.493,"text":"你沒有問,你有講12點,但是你沒有問沒有沒有,沒有這一段了15分鐘了啦我知道他現在要問看原班很遠,沒有辦法從台中趕過來已經15分鐘了啦連新店的羅明才都叫不來,要叫台中的"},{"start":44592.791,"end":44603.903,"text":"財政委員、現前許多委員所強調,今天若要對資源分配進行討論,財權跟市權也應該同時進行。要讓大型財政委員會、國民黨、協會等工作的業務也應該要交由地方來執行。但地方政府也相反,也必須重新進行。"},{"start":44616.648,"end":44621.771,"text":"陳一貞又有另外一個人我看他的話就等誰來啊15分鐘了15分鐘了欸你要再進去不然等一下跑掉"},{"start":44640.844,"end":44666.644,"text":"蘇熙,你現在等處長還要等誰?你就講清楚好不好?等處長來就要開會了嗎?等處長來就要開會嗎?因為他叫我看我下午有沒有宣布我看一下?沒有,等處長來要...我覺得我是有嘛,如果真的沒有當然我不會找大家時間好不好?等處長來就要開會嗎?他說我看嘛,好不好?因為我就確認我有嘛,啊如果沒有我也不會擔心啊我說等處長來還是要等誰?還要等誰?啊你還要等誰?"},{"start":44668.595,"end":44675.499,"text":"好啦,那不用再看了啦!不用再看了啦!錯你也不會承認啦!不用再看了啦!"},{"start":44697.694,"end":44725.302,"text":"啊到底那個處長來了沒?你是要等處長還是要等羅明才?還是要等閻寬恆?還有等誰?林德福、賴世保、黃珊珊你要等誰你講清楚嘛好不好?你去吃大餐我們也等你"},{"start":44727.265,"end":44748.46,"text":"現在習萊登吃大餐回來都一個小時了吃飯也等你,不宣布開會時間也等你,現在也等你國家有你這種立委悲哀啊"},{"start":44754.656,"end":44767.763,"text":"你事實上在看這個還在看這個?真的啦,郭國文你都大概當他郭國文在高一文裡面講,郭明才在四方,只是你看一看就超像"},{"start":44784.286,"end":44798.013,"text":"已經17分鐘了耶!你不是說看幾分鐘決定要不要開嗎?那17分鐘可不可以開了?你的標準不是說還要看等多久嗎?17分鐘可以開了吧?他沒有回答我幾分鐘,我在等他回答我幾分鐘"},{"start":44799.772,"end":44821.506,"text":"剛剛說十幾分鐘啊!你說要等啊!現在十幾啦!自己來當師大餐回來都一個多小時了!全部的人等你一個欸!從五點多到現在!真的!三個小時了!我有宣布休息!你不休息我們對你至上最高的敬意!你要跟別人講幾點要回來啊!你要跟他講休息到什麼時候啊!對不起喔!主席的長選問一下中加評委!等一下!"},{"start":44828.632,"end":44836.971,"text":"不能叫喔!不能叫喔!不能叫喔!不大聲講他聽不到啦!選舉補助管什麼時候還啊!"},{"start":44847.709,"end":44853.294,"text":"我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過我講話的時候這樣沒聽過"},{"start":44864.325,"end":44881.761,"text":"主席啊,要不要開會啊?主席啊,要不要開會啊?現在到底在等什麼啊?有同時來跟施大川把他們丟在這邊回來也已經一個多小時了,啊什麼時候要開會?"},{"start":44885.339,"end":44912.666,"text":"五委員啊!五委員啊!你東西都給人家砸壞了!你不要講其他的事情!顧左右緣啊!這個我們委員會權益啊!那你們不被黨賠了嗎?主席啊!主席啊!主席!主席可不可以坐好啊?上啦!來了啦!來了啦!好啦!組長來了啦!到底要不要開會?"},{"start":44919.916,"end":44941.206,"text":"不要再看了好不好!不要再裝了啦!不用再裝了啦!好了啦!好了啦!陳一貞!陳一貞!不用再看了啦!處長回來了!叫他口罩!處長回來了啊!證實一下!證實一下!不要再裝了啦!再裝就不像了啦!"},{"start":44943.474,"end":44969.316,"text":"這裝就不像了啦好了啦好了啦國文把那個收起來了啦不要再看那個沒有用了啦快開會主席快開會阿處長都到了你還不開會那個不用再看了啦處長沒有戴口罩了看看是不是這個是處長咧主席啊阿處長都來了啊"},{"start":44978.119,"end":44998.013,"text":"主席,你到底要不要宣布開會啊?處長都來了啊!各位委員齁,謝謝齁。啊那個,農業部這個咧?不是,啊這個咧?這位剛剛沒有去看啊。農業部沒有來嗎?來了來了。來,你看一下這個人去哪裡了?"},{"start":45000.31,"end":45021.436,"text":"還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰?還有誰"},{"start":45028.097,"end":45043.507,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":45045.97,"end":45064.275,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人"},{"start":45065.495,"end":45070.598,"text":"歡迎林教育、林教育、林教育、林教育、林教育、林教育、林教育、"},{"start":45089.179,"end":45108.664,"text":"現在缺羅明才、委員顏寬恆、委員還要等誰啊?還要等誰來啊?主席,你要不要寫一張紙給你就寫給你啦,你要幹嘛?"},{"start":45111.525,"end":45113.707,"text":"沒有官員在場我們也可以繼續開會,那就寫沒關係啊"},{"start":45129.946,"end":45142.574,"text":"要等誰啊?講啊!講清楚啊!要等誰啊?農業部了解一下是怎麼回事啊?農業部!農業部!早上也說農業部要等誰啊?不是!農業部是農業部的喔?不是!農業部是農業部的喔?哪天要了解一下人會不會來在哪裡可以嗎?恢復一下你現在還沒問羅明才吧?羅明才是農業部的嗎?不是啊,我們上部的啦就剩兩個啊"},{"start":45158.098,"end":45164.101,"text":"最遠的台中延寬衡委員也到了農業部的延寬衡來了啊"},{"start":45181.528,"end":45194.698,"text":"論講話的李關晨早就來了,你幹嘛去講顏寬恆,莫名其妙!來了啊!來了啊!農業部顏寬恆來了啊!農業部顏寬恆來了啊!林丹福也來了啊!賴慈慧也來了啊!賴慈慧也來了啊!賴慈慧也來了啊!"},{"start":45205.231,"end":45227.741,"text":"我們今天要來玩一下,說什麼一、兩、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五"},{"start":45233.403,"end":45236.145,"text":"等一下,現在怎麼會詢問啊?我們有懲罰問題!我們不能懲罰問題的!我們有懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!懲罰問題!"},{"start":45263.393,"end":45285.118,"text":"你主持人說不公正,我陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢不能講嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回答嗎?陳詢問你不能回"},{"start":45289.667,"end":45303.519,"text":"委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":45314.217,"end":45329.442,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、"},{"start":45330.377,"end":45337.719,"text":"陳旭文你不可以不發言嗎?我們陳旭文你不能發言嗎?陳旭文你不可以發言嗎?你今天早上明明答應我們禮拜三可以詢問、可以執行,那你現在為什麼變這樣呢?"},{"start":45358.682,"end":45362.724,"text":"我們也需要大體討論!我們需要大體討論!我們程序問題不能發言嗎?程序問題不能發言嗎?"},{"start":45387.205,"end":45397.258,"text":"二、本院台灣民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":45401.823,"end":45430.417,"text":"財政收支劃分法：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》22案：繼續審查《財政收支劃"},{"start":45438.007,"end":45453.01,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋"},{"start":45466.423,"end":45480.718,"text":"等21人等22人等23人等24人等25人等26人等27人等28人等28人等29人等30人等31人等32人等34人等35人等36人等37人等38人等39人等40人等41人等42人等43人等44人等45人等46人等47人等48人等49人等50人等51人等52人等53人等54人等55人等56人等56人等57人等57人等58人等58人等59人等59人等59人等60人等60人等60人等60人等60人等60人等61人等61人等62人等63人等63人等64人等64人等65人等65人等67人等67人等68人等68人等67人等68人等68人等79人等79人等80人等80人等80人等80人等80人等90人等90"},{"start":45489.386,"end":45509.313,"text":"沒有人知道在宣讀什麼條文!沒有人知道在宣讀什麼條文!現在要改黑箱條文!要再改黑箱條文!要再宣讀!要再宣讀條文!要再黑箱宣讀條文!要再黑箱宣讀條文!"},{"start":45517.777,"end":45536.075,"text":"有意見!有意見!有意見!不要在這裡偷渡條文!沒有人知道現在討論的是什麼版本!沒有人知道現在在宣讀什麼條文!沒有人知道在討論什麼條文!"},{"start":45540.254,"end":45559.489,"text":"幾千億幾千億的預算沒有人知道在宣讀什麼條文可以這樣嗎幾千億的版本幾千億的預算有意見有意見"},{"start":45563.763,"end":45566.045,"text":"有意見﹖有意見﹖有意見﹖"},{"start":45583.157,"end":45603.166,"text":"幾千億的預算幾千億的預算幾千億的預算幾千億的預算幾千億的民脂民膏就這樣黑箱條文不要再宣告黑箱條文"},{"start":45611.834,"end":45615.658,"text":"請問第8條問題是什麼?沒有人知道是什麼條文,怎麼討論?"},{"start":45628.203,"end":45644.476,"text":"這是國家的預算!這是幾千億的民脂民膏!幾千億的民脂民膏!有意見!有意見!幾千億的民脂民膏!這樣子審查的!"},{"start":45645.797,"end":45672.089,"text":"幾千億的民主民國國家預算這樣搞的!不要搞黑社!有意見!有意見!有意見!不要弄我!不要弄我!我根本不知道你要怎麼弄我!最壞的事是什麼?會議無效!會議無效啦!"},{"start":45674.189,"end":45701.572,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十一、九、十二、十三、十四、十三、十四、十四、十五、十五、十六、十六、十八、十八、十九、十九、十九、十九、十八、十九、十九、十八、十九、十八、十九、十八、十九、十八、十九、十八、十九、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、十八、"},{"start":45702.702,"end":45709.107,"text":"沒有人知道陳玉珍現在宣讀的是什麼版本!幾千億的預算!幾千億的預算!就這樣惡搞!你們有沒有良心啊!你們有沒有良心啊!"},{"start":45721.686,"end":45724.389,"text":"幾千億的預算!幾千億的預算!陳宇珍你可以這樣亂搞!"},{"start":45735.926,"end":45762.238,"text":"幾千億的民脂民膏你知道你在宣讀什麼條文嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條文是什麼版本嗎?請問你知道這個條"},{"start":45769.229,"end":45784.17,"text":"沒有人這樣亂搞的啦陳毓芬你是雙二手的命令要這樣亂搞把國家搞亂你在幹什麼啦國家預算是這樣亂搞的嗎幾千億的台灣開化法不能這樣弄"},{"start":45786.03,"end":45798.782,"text":"你去違反協調的內容,也違反立法的規則,投案法怎麼會作弄呢?請問問市法領導服,羅明才,你們是不是還想做什麼條文嗎?到底在記什麼東西啊?"},{"start":45804.026,"end":45817.638,"text":"陳玉珍今天一整個程序,大家都說要有地方政府,要有各部會,衛福部沒有來,你都同意禮拜三要傳各部會來問,你都同意,你到底在急什麼?國家財政可以亂搞嗎?"},{"start":45826.264,"end":45845.451,"text":"今天一整天大家都說程序花園、都亂講大家也都尊重你是主席喔尊重你是主席的公辦三個要來講、辦三個要給大家問電影政府要傳來、電影政府各部份都要來叫來問"},{"start":45847.601,"end":45869.274,"text":"幾天功課,你現在還擋彎腰?你是說到誰的秘密只有那麼急不可?是誰叫你這樣做?我們現在要再破壞個李昆蟲!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!破壞國安!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!李昆蟲!要調給吳靜悟!還不如要調來問!"},{"start":45876.46,"end":45901.959,"text":"大家都說要尊重每一個委員在發言你們哪一條自己都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道你們哪一條都不知道"},{"start":45902.159,"end":45904.522,"text":"主席,你很丟臉!主席,你很丟臉!"},{"start":45920.958,"end":45939.384,"text":"陳立正你這樣你不應該這樣做禮拜三禮拜三再來用了好啊你到底在舉什麼啦你在舉什麼啦禮拜三再來禮拜三大家好好討論你為什麼要這樣子呢陳立正不要亂搞"},{"start":45945.114,"end":45952.679,"text":"郭育晴你拉脖子!拉脖子!郭育晴!拉脖子!郭育晴!拉脖子!習慣性說謊欸這是"},{"start":45961.721,"end":45986.656,"text":"不要!你要保護他!保護他!保護他!他已經被...被...他早都已經受傷了!他早都已經受傷了!早上才答應我們要讓我們禮拜三可以好好問!為什麼你現在在這裏...你哪一坨都不知道!你這樣說謊啊!不丟金門人的臉嗎?等你可會等4個小時喔!大家在這兒這樣!啊你就說白衫還來開!"},{"start":45989.137,"end":46002.309,"text":"我都不用開會了,每個單位要傳來問啊!然後等全部都齊!每個單位要傳來問!阿你都是主席捏!阿主席這樣!說話不算話!"},{"start":46006.165,"end":46030.673,"text":"你們講的話沒有人相信啊!你講的話沒有人相信啊!你整天都說我們白衫!我們這裡的相關部會要調來蒙!我白衫!我白衫!我黃蒙尿!黃蒙尿也要來阻調!他的襯衫!不要讓他走光啊!不要讓他走光啊!陳立法院長真的會丟啦!丟臉啦!不要這樣啦!不要這樣啦!"},{"start":46036.028,"end":46058.364,"text":"這樣更小啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!可以啦!"},{"start":46074.337,"end":46082.763,"text":"請問你剛剛宣讀的是哪一個版本?你剛剛宣讀通過保留的是哪幾條?哪些版本?沒有人知道?"},{"start":46083.564,"end":46100.801,"text":"你剛剛宣讀的是哪?這裡有22個版本。你宣讀通過保留是哪些條文、哪些版本?請問主席你知道你剛剛處理了什麼條文嗎?請問你處理的是民眾黨?"},{"start":46109.482,"end":46118.011,"text":"你剛剛22的版本你通過的是什麼條文?你保留的是什麼條文?你知道你在處理什麼條文嗎?你知道你在處理什麼條文嗎?"},{"start":46125.318,"end":46149.186,"text":"你知道你剛剛這樣亂搞一通到底是哪幾個版本被宣讀哪幾個條文被處理主席可以回答這個問題嗎?你可以說明一下你剛剛處理的條文內容是什麼嗎?"},{"start":46151.849,"end":46175.322,"text":"你剛剛處理的條文是什麼?你處理的條文是什麼?你處理的是政协裁的版本還是兵學章的版本?你處理的是民事局的版本還是內內容的版本?你處理的是民眾黨的版本還是國民黨的版本?"},{"start":46178.277,"end":46192.458,"text":"你到底處理的是誰的版本?總共有22個版本!22個版本!請問主席,你知道你處理的是哪一個版本第幾條嗎?"},{"start":46195.407,"end":46221.314,"text":"我們怎麼尊重主席啊?主席自己都是尊重別人,我覺得尊重他啊!陳怡琛都亂搞啦!不要亂搞了啦!不要再亂搞了啦!這不是啦!沒有人要吃掉了啦!不要亂搞了啦!你處理的是羅明才的版本、羅明才的版本!你到底給我五十多幾點啦!陳怡琛不要下秀線了啦!你處理的是鄭振銓的版本還是羅明才的版本?你處理的是誰的版本?"},{"start":46222.719,"end":46228.123,"text":"你處理的是誰的版本?我剛剛有人唸,你們都沒有人聽到啦!你告訴我你唸的條文通過的條款,條文是什麼?你降下惡例!"},{"start":46243.633,"end":46252.038,"text":"撞下惡例!告訴我!我們現在修法的版本!亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!陳昇深亂搞!"},{"start":46264.905,"end":46277.693,"text":"你可以說明嗎?你不要怕!你們連國民黨的委員都不說!你處理的是哪一個版本?你處理的是哪一個版本?你告訴我!你必須在大會說明!你處理的內容是什麼?哪一個版本內容是什麼?"},{"start":46289.78,"end":46306.817,"text":"哪一個版本?內容是什麼?請說明你是哪一個版本?你處理的是哪一個版本?各位同志請坐下。你今天早上明明說你被殺害,我們能夠實施20分鐘?今天早上講得不順序嗎?"},{"start":46313.32,"end":46326.426,"text":"今天早上說我們可以尋答的!說禮拜三可以尋答的!陳毓昇連通過的版本是什麼都不知道!他連通過的版本是哪一版都不知道!"},{"start":46331.006,"end":46345.539,"text":"陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子、陳一貞騙子陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊、陳一貞說謊"},{"start":46356.749,"end":46364.433,"text":"陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞、陳一貞"},{"start":46388.402,"end":46409.418,"text":"兩位委員通過的是你的版本嗎?請問通過的是誰的版本?通過的是賴士寶的還是王宏威的?還是羅明才的還是鄭振前的?還是賴士寶的在場的國民黨委員提案委員沒有人知道通過的是誰的版本?"},{"start":46411.266,"end":46425.699,"text":"沒有人知道通過的是誰的版本!羅明才委員你知道你的版本有被通過嗎?請問他保留的是哪一個版本?保留是哪一個版本?無恥啊!騙人!有22個版本!無恥!說謊!無恥!說謊!騙人!說謊騙人!"},{"start":46438.357,"end":46464.273,"text":"內事保委員還有兩個版本啊!沒有人知道!沒有人知道!沒有人知道是怎麼討人!撂跑啦!陳玉珍撂跑啦!陳玉珍不要撂跑!陳玉珍不要撂跑!不要撂跑!陳玉珍!撂跑啦!不要撂跑!陳玉珍!撂跑啦!不要撂跑!騙子啊!說謊啊!騙子啊!騙子啊!連參與的感情都要騙啦!騙子啊!"},{"start":46468.325,"end":46474.016,"text":"蔡壹群的感情被欺騙了啦真的騙子啊剛剛在點水樓跟誰吃飯了騙了蔡壹群團團賺啦"},{"start":49142.43,"end":49143.394,"text":"、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等"},{"start":50053.308,"end":50053.829,"text":"哇,來一群來幹架的"},{"start":50085.851,"end":50086.212,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":50101.048,"end":50107.37,"text":"主席不敢收下吳炳銳提出來的散會動議"},{"start":50129.359,"end":50147.445,"text":"主席、主席、不敢承認無比任委員提出來的散戶答應主席、主席、你不處理無比任委員提出來的散戶答應你為什麼不敢承認你剛剛有說開會?你為什麼不敢承認你剛剛有說開會?你為什麼不敢承認你剛剛有說開會?"},{"start":50159.428,"end":50180.265,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":50273.485,"end":50290.831,"text":"說你們要喊開會!優先處理散會動議不要再拖時間了!你為什麼不先處理?你為什麼不先?誰跟你講那個?"},{"start":50301.068,"end":50327.316,"text":"這是我的ABC,我也知道,我比你懂意是貴神,我做了20年的議員!還沒開始,還有1分53秒好不好,休息!對不起,我已經休息了!我已經休息了!大家要不要平和?阿官員咧?沒有官員怎麼那個?官員咧?我們還有1分多鐘喔?"},{"start":50328.783,"end":50335.733,"text":"我大會面對不用擔心我今天等下就要開到那個不用擔心我必定懂議事規則我跟你們講"},{"start":50337.165,"end":50356.698,"text":"我比你們懂!我當了20幾年的議員好不好!我比你們懂!我當了20年!你當幾年議員?你當幾年議員?你當幾年議員?我跟你差不多!沒做過的!沒做過議員啊!你沒做過!你做過幼稚園而已啊!你幼稚園喔!你好丟臉喔!不懂得會議規則請尊重主席!"},{"start":50361.636,"end":50385.557,"text":"官員都不在,到底是要怎麼開我會處理,你們不用擔心嘛尊重一下主席好不好處理商會東西我尊重你們搶了這麼多東西搶了這麼多東西還有吳秉瑞破壞了這個吳秉瑞把整個吳秉瑞破壞了這個東西吳秉瑞把這個破壞掉,大家有沒有看到吳秉瑞公務破壞到這麼厲害開到12點還這樣子"},{"start":50390.76,"end":50417.193,"text":"我有說禮拜三不給你們討論嗎?我說禮拜三讓大家繼續討論啊!我也說要開到12點啊!我沒有騙大家!我說禮拜三要繼續討論啊!有這麼多官員要過來好不好?好不好?要!禮拜三會討論!我會尊重你!禮拜三會討論!金門人臉怎麼樣不用了啦!因為你不是金門人啦齁!時間到就按百號!"},{"start":50421.121,"end":50440.586,"text":"好 休息時間結束了 可以處理了吧好 現在 等一下我講完現在繼續開會 休息喔 到禮拜三繼續 休息完全不顧議事規則 你為什麼不處理散會動議陳議員你不要走你為什麼不處理散會動議"},{"start":50451.213,"end":50451.453,"text":"處理三會動議!"},{"start":50469.825,"end":50471.166,"text":"主席,請處理散會動議。你為什麼不敢處理?"},{"start":50492.35,"end":50497.855,"text":"三位共議要優先處理!三位共議要優先處理!"},{"start":50520.486,"end":50535.693,"text":"二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員羅廷"}]}},{"id":"156490","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4085076963a3a0153234c3126a5d15bfb661614f1b6372c58a4e00a675d9541ec565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"17:19:59 - 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Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T17:19:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T17:24:54+08:00","duration":295,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.43909375,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.27284375,"end":53.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.69346875,"end":74.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.82096875,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.34409375000001,"end":113.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.12284375,"end":114.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.42221875000001,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.11721875,"end":232.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.87221875,"end":292.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.07784375,"end":294.97221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.452,"end":28.28,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席今天非常辛苦然後我們也充分的讓所有的委員對於財化法能夠做一些說明那在這邊剛才我之前也特別提到了從這個法令上的依據不管是憲法或者是地方制度法"},{"start":28.8,"end":52.216,"text":"事上都授予《財化法》它的一個修法。《財化法》它是一個原來就在的法律,不是新的法律。另外,我們也要特別提到,我們剛才很多委員都提到了說,除了統籌分配款之外,那麼中央還有給地方包含一般補助款,或者是企劃補助款。"},{"start":53.777,"end":73.304,"text":"但是不可諱言的即便是在6月5號我們的公聽會非常多的地方政府都提到了這幾年來在整個的財政的分配裡面經常發生中央請客、地方買單"},{"start":74.884,"end":101.485,"text":"例如我剛才所提到的我們針對地方的民代的加擠、知己條例的提高不管是議員的助理薪水或者是對於里長的春節慰問金或者之前包含軍公教的調薪或者是對於警勤加擠的提高"},{"start":102.466,"end":121.354,"text":"那麼非常多的政策是來自於中央宣布但是並沒有給地方一個確定的財源所以大家一直在講說財政具體法很重要很重要啊確實很重要我剛才講了嘛我們的賴思寶委員在現場"},{"start":124.935,"end":149.28,"text":"大家一直說財政紀律法就是由我們賴士寶委員所催生的但是我們這個財政紀律之父啊他對於財化法、財政紀律法都非常清楚所以今天我們很多的所謂的補助款其實本來就應該給地方啊因為是你中央這些的政策"},{"start":150.26,"end":174.116,"text":"自行宣布之後,然後讓地方來做買單。那麼有一些,譬如可能財政狀況比較好的六都,他還可以指引。但是對極大多數的縣市政府,當你去宣布了一個政策,中央宣布一個政策之後,他根本連財源在哪裡都不知道。"},{"start":174.756,"end":177.139,"text":"所以我們地方現在面臨的問題是他的財政第一個收入不穩定還有他完全沒有辦法去能夠控制他的一個財政的支出我們甚至有一些縣市政府啊"},{"start":193.078,"end":194.939,"text":"他連人事費都要仰仗中央的補助款給他。中央補助款不給他,他連人事費、連薪水都發不出來。所以在這樣的一個極度扭曲的中央地方財政的分配結構之下,"},{"start":214.77,"end":226.201,"text":"要修正財劃法真的是當務之急那當然財劃法的修正有所謂垂直性就是中央要分多少給地方那麼接下來地方之間的分配有水平的分配"},{"start":233.007,"end":244.656,"text":"但是無論如何我覺得今天如果我們執政的我們各位委員如果你去回去聽一聽你自己地方財主單位的心聲你就知道在垂直分配有多麼不公平有多麼地方有多麼希望"},{"start":253.283,"end":270.833,"text":"能夠競速競速的能夠加速我們財化法的修正所以在這邊也希望我們今天在座所有關心財化法修正的委員們能夠直接進入今天我們用各種的理由"},{"start":271.753,"end":291.644,"text":"主旨財劃法的修正,其實最大的受害者仍然是我們所有的地方政府,也是尤其我們在整個財政能力比較差、比較弱勢的地方的選民,其實他們的受害更深。"}]}},{"id":"156492","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156492","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408d81dce7206a69ec34c3126a5d15bfb661614f1b6372c58a4555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"17:28:49 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謝謝黃珊珊委員"}]}},{"id":"156488","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156488","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408f6c8c86a95538b9c4c3126a5d15bfb661614f1b6372c58a46511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"17:01:49 - 17:05:17","影片長度":"00:03:28","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T17:01:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T17:05:17+08:00","duration":208,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.29596875,"end":37.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.35846875,"end":56.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.659093750000004,"end":91.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.69596875,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.86596875000001,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.27346875,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.81721875000001,"end":163.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.85346875000002,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.47409375,"end":188.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.83159375000002,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.89784375000002,"end":204.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.18034375000002,"end":207.67784375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.388,"end":12.511,"text":"我希望透過現在的會議詢問想大家也都逐漸的凝聚了共識首先第一個當然就是對於接下來我們的會議的進行包括禮拜三那麼禮拜三"},{"start":38.93,"end":56.436,"text":"呃﹑剛剛國民黨的委員一直不斷的是講說啊民進黨你要提版本啊有民進黨包括武力華委員也有版本那麼到了禮拜三之後第一個現在就是除了可能被預算被縮減的中央部會要來因為這是一個"},{"start":58.329,"end":65.396,"text":"隨時分配的部分那麼中央可能面臨從過去的75變成剩下60所減少的15%是從國防還是交通建設還是教育經費還是長照補貼又或者是跟內政相關的租屋補貼這些部分要被挖"},{"start":77.828,"end":91.327,"text":"那麼這個是符合全民的利益嗎?這是第一點第二點是剛剛我們講到的一早我的那26秒當中我就提到了從過去的第一次的審查到公聽會都出現就是22個縣市有出席的"},{"start":94.571,"end":110.11,"text":"他們對於能夠多一點預算跟經費當然都OK但是所多出來的預算經費包括過去本席在財政委員會非常清楚的從財政部到主計處對於地方的財政是有一定"},{"start":110.951,"end":124.867,"text":"的所謂指標當他們的這個所謂財政紀律的指標不足的時候是會對於他們的地方政府的預算使用會有所限制"},{"start":125.928,"end":137.877,"text":"那麼對於現在有些地方政府會去蓋所謂的蚊子館又或者是去辦一些放煙火的活動這個也是過去多所批評但是如果現在根據國民黨的黨版你要用這種所謂的只給錢不問預算怎麼使用那麼現在本席就要問了當中央政府的官員出席了"},{"start":149.065,"end":164.918,"text":"地方政府的官員也來了那麼地方政府的官員是不是也應該在禮拜三的時候要好好的做出說明不能只是說有錢給我多多益善越多越好中央要表達"},{"start":165.658,"end":192.996,"text":"那麼到底是哪些?比如說國防預算我們不要了嗎?還是民眾最希望的社會福利預算我們不要了?或者是教育預算我們不要了?然後讓地方來執行而地方能不能做得到?所以本席要問的是禮拜三當這些中央部會跟地方政府都派員出席的時候我們雖然身為外委會的委員但是我們長期在關注國家財政的委員"},{"start":196.339,"end":201.629,"text":"預爭主席這樣只給我一分鐘讓我沒有辦法問沒有辦法提出我的疑問謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156487","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156487","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4083c73183319d28e8a4c3126a5d15bfb661614f1b6372c58a40a24d4c92cf601975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"16:57:49 - 17:01:21","影片長度":"00:03:32","會議時間":"2024-11-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-04","start_time":"2024-11-04T16:57:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-04T17:01:21+08:00","duration":212,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":6,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-6"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.92534375,"end":1.1953437500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.51596875,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.37534375000001,"end":208.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.29784375000003,"end":212.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.62,"end":18.501,"text":"沈博洋第三次發言那這個主席有時候還是會忍不住評論所以還是這個但是大家每一次上來都已經拜託我覺得就不用再拜託一次了那我們剛剛講到就是說國民黨這次修法的一個動機那為什麼我們說這個不宜進入主條"},{"start":19.222,"end":47.571,"text":"最主要的原因最主要在今年年初的時候就已經有花東三法的問題當時花東三法被提出來的時候大家的聲音是什麼就是那裡的財源到底要哪裡來你為什麼可以直接挖掉那麼大的一筆的預算所以當時呢也是因為這樣喊停了之後結果現在呢新的財化法這樣的一個修正方式反而是把所有的縣市一起拖下水本來就只有在花東相關的一個財政"},{"start":48.331,"end":62.187,"text":"把他變成是一個全國的一個財政問題但我還是要再度強調就是地方上需不需要錢這本來就是一個假命題從103年2014年一直到現在地方上的支出是增加了8%"},{"start":63.248,"end":70.609,"text":"等185人：而且不管是這個所謂的統籌分配款從2400多億到4700多億還包含一般性的補助款從1800多億到2500多億各部會的計劃型補助從1200多到2900多這個增幅非常的巨大我在上一輪發言的時候也有提到就是我們現在的收入是62比38"},{"start":89.153,"end":117.605,"text":"支出是64比36這個基本上並沒有地方上財源不足的問題更不要講說地方上並還沒有提出相關的計劃所以如果用這個虛假的命題當作理由的話這個並不合適那再來就是呢因為這是會議詢問我不進入細節的討論但會議詢問最主要我們反對的一點就是如果禮拜三我們請到每一個不同的地方政府來這個沒有任何的"},{"start":118.425,"end":133.59,"text":"任何的一個比照為什麼呢你每一個縣市政府每一個地方問他要不要100億問他要不要200億他都欣然接受嘛但問題就是這個錢到底是從哪裡挖出來的所以被挖的人也應該要在場才對"},{"start":134.93,"end":149.001,"text":"所以這就是我們在會議詢問非常重要的一個訴求就是不只是法案裡面的標準不明確的問題今天是國防部被挖還是衛福部被挖我們今天是不是像我剛剛講的魚叉飛彈是不是就不要買了我們各這個什麼軍裡面的每一個我們的陸軍的海軍的空軍的裝備是不是都不要了我們0到20歲這個現在國家要補助是不是就不要了"},{"start":160.269,"end":175.683,"text":"我們請總召來說明是不是他現在認為花蓮的公托也都完全不要了?人民的補助是不是也都不要了?因為把這些都不要了之後才有辦法把錢全部按照這一個法案丟給地方嗎?"},{"start":176.363,"end":202.505,"text":"如果這一件事情沒有其他的部會來說明被挖的人沒有來說明的話我們只是討論水平分配這件事情然後說水平分配公不公平問題是那一個肉擺在那邊大家都想要吃啊但我們如果因為這個樣子去弱化我們的國安弱化我們的國防2900多億的國防預算是什麼概念我們國防預算是6000多億也就是將近一半的國防預算會這樣憑空消失欸我覺得這個"},{"start":204.807,"end":208.339,"text":"就是為什麼我們不應該進入逐條討論最重要的理由。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"156453","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca40877c8fbc42b59d692cdd5a1250ef41c2860e0fa166fcc38d59aab6c45daf424f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:59:15 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對不對"},{"start":109.944,"end":117.571,"text":"中選會要依法執行。在立法修法的過程裏面,我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。"},{"start":128.36,"end":157.191,"text":"在民主深化的過程當中啊在民主深化的過程當中什麼是走回頭路這件事情每個人心裡啊有一把尺在您的心裡認為說公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候您有做這樣的意見的表達我接任中選會主委的時候公投是我要跟主委說的是什麼我要跟主委說的是啊是"},{"start":158.412,"end":180.131,"text":"2019年當初的公投法鎖進鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間提案當天沒有經過委員會討論直接禁敷二讀冷凍30天以後強行表決30天30天喔把非常多我們民主的前輩"},{"start":181.372,"end":201.043,"text":"再推動公投法補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠嗎那當然從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史所以他們的立場改變這個我尊重這個我尊重但我要說的事情是什麼"},{"start":202.182,"end":225.897,"text":"我要說的事情是在我心裡面2019年那才是走回頭路鎖回鳥籠公投法那才是所才是真的走回頭路當然主委你有不一樣的看法我也尊重啦但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責要共同決定的事情包括我們的總統賴清德當初"},{"start":229.045,"end":251.561,"text":"公投跟選舉要何必舉行?這是我們賴總統在當立委的時候的信念當初的提案他也是大力的倡議當然可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變會改變還包括什麼來我再帶主委看一下主委你說這個"},{"start":254.677,"end":276.788,"text":"違反公投的選舉的結果應辭職這應該是政治責任不應該是法律責任這個也是主委您的看法嗎?沒有錯是嗎?好那那剛剛甚至有委員說說提這個案子的委員啦是不想負責任因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後我覺得非常的害怕"},{"start":277.728,"end":284.274,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":297.438,"end":323.174,"text":"我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候他提這個法律案絕對不會是因為絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任他只是想要別人負責任我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正要釋放鳥籠公投甚至說什麼違反公投的結果權責機關的首長應立即辭職"},{"start":326.445,"end":327.531,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":332.54,"end":360.368,"text":"在法理上是講不通的行得通行不通我們到逐條的時候大家再來討論但我要駁斥的是什麼我要駁斥的是說啊民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想指責現在提案的委員不想負責任所以嘛現在是針對中選會的大選了等一下馬上要由你回答的事情請你不要急因為我覺得道理啊要講清楚啊"},{"start":361.345,"end":384.364,"text":"我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任所以才提這種案子嗎?我個人認為並不是如此但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嘛是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦?是的那現在結果怎麼樣?"},{"start":386.281,"end":399.01,"text":"如果是最近可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人不是只有一位21個人21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛最後結果怎麼樣是不起訴處分"},{"start":400.543,"end":429.101,"text":"你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講?我第一點要講的就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定我們是予以尊重第二點但是我們也深覺遺憾那我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢?因為我認為選舉是一個非常重要的民主國家非常重要的一個工程選舉的這個成敗攸關到我們整個民主的進程"},{"start":429.701,"end":431.882,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":451.391,"end":460.937,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":469.946,"end":497.392,"text":"各別的疏失當然是有人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯那個我們有做過說明的做過澄清的有些甚至於是無中生有的都有這種來來來來來中選會代表上面是怎麼講的你們的告訴代理人啊徵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業的情況這個是"},{"start":500.728,"end":503.57,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":530.888,"end":531.629,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":544.863,"end":565.828,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。八、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。九、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":571.701,"end":591.13,"text":"他們歷經了這個勞力時間費用的浪費結果你今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講說你的意思是說我有話要講你們21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已啦我要講的話剛剛已經講過了對嘛所以我就說嘛以今天的立場違反"},{"start":592.41,"end":615.958,"text":"對於違反國家秀黑重大法例的事項應該要負更高的注意。」所以你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嗎?就算檢察官不起訴處分這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力所承受的痛苦從中選會的立場來講剛好而已是不是這樣?"},{"start":617.405,"end":636.726,"text":"剛好而已我是不會用因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面影響第一個我要說一次喔中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票的情況這是客觀的事實喔"},{"start":637.486,"end":651.952,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":667.537,"end":689.191,"text":"他們所質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?他們所在質疑的影帶有偽照變照嗎?有些是受過度的延伸啊。過度的延伸。請你回答問題啊。他的影帶有偽照變照嗎?我沒有每一件都看齁。我沒有每一件都看。來!請你自己在上面看。我白紙黑紙也推在上面。這個是不起訴處分數上面寫的啊。"},{"start":691.616,"end":715.849,"text":"被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。不是轉接就完全可以撇清責任嗎?你要轉接你就知道說有很多人可以去聽可以去看對整個事件的這個真相是不是有所模糊所以重點嘛重點是那個引擔是不是有被變造是不是有被偽造今天喔"},{"start":716.96,"end":738.613,"text":"如果有人偽造變造引帶去污蔑我們的選務同仁我跟主委報告我們大家一定共同譴責太過分了但問題是什麼問題今天調查的結果出來那些引帶完全沒有偽造變造完全沒有偽造變造啊然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了"},{"start":740.489,"end":755.735,"text":"選務的確有問題最後做出了不請訴處分您作為中選會的主委連跟這21個人說抱歉讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序你連這個格局都沒有"},{"start":756.578,"end":770.719,"text":"對於國家社會重大法役所受到的侵害大家應該要共同的面對這問題不在於我要不要表示歉意而是這對整個社會對民主的一個重大傷害所以我就問你嘛學務有沒有缺失嘛有還是沒有"},{"start":771.46,"end":772.06,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":787.179,"end":787.98,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":807.799,"end":826.281,"text":"上一次在這邊問的時候你自己就承認了對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有一句sorry都沒有一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑阿這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎"},{"start":829.175,"end":843.906,"text":"中選會選務有瑕疵公民不能質疑你敢質疑我把你移送法辦這樣子論述太簡單了沒有關係啊我靜候你我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啦我靜候你精彩的論述啊你們徹底的被打臉了今天還站在這邊硬拗喔"},{"start":854.541,"end":874.381,"text":"維護國家社會的法律,這也是中選會的責任。所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛!就活該嘛!被你的中選會移送活該而已啦!這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴啦!選務的尊嚴?沒有幫助!不是啦!那你就把選務做好就好了嘛!"},{"start":875.236,"end":877.517,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1331,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時59分）謝謝主席，麻煩請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。美國的大選大家都很關心，11月5號就要舉行了，主委知不知道，11月5號除了他們選總統、參議員、眾議員之外，各州都有不少公投案，你知道嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員國昌：他們的選舉跟公投是不是合併舉行？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以在政策的立場上，公投跟選舉合併舉行有助於人民行使他的權利，在另外一方面，中選會考慮的是選務的負擔，主委，你都報告過了嘛！作為立法者，我們要做的決定是，這兩件事情放在天平的兩端孰輕孰重，我們有沒有可能藉由比較好的設計去減低行政上面的負擔，去促進人民對於憲法所保障公民權利的行使，這個是委員會乃至於國會下一個階段要處理的問題，這個是修法的權責，主管機關的意見我們都聽到了，會納入我們立法上面的考慮，每一個委員心裡面都有一把尺，我也不會要求主委要表態，因為你有你的看法，國會作為集體意志代表人民行使最後立法權限的組織體，我們要做最後一個決定，我相信對於立法的結果，中選會一定會尊重嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會要依法執行。"],["黃委員國昌：是，當然要依法執行嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：在立法修法的過程裡面，我們也要勇於來說明中選會的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：您非常勇敢啦！您書面、口頭都很勇敢的說明了。"],["李主任委員進勇：我要說出我們行政機關的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我全部都聆聽到了啦！臺灣在民主深化的過程當中，在民主深化的過程當中，什麼是走回頭路？這件事情每個人心裡有一把尺，在您的心裡認為公投回去跟選舉一起舉行是走回頭路，剛剛您在回答其他委員質詢的時候，你有做這樣的意見表達。"],["李主任委員進勇：我接任中選會主委的時候，公投是綁大選。"],["黃委員國昌：我要跟主委說的是什麼？我要跟主委說的是，2019年當初的公投法鎖進鳥籠的時候只花了30天的時間，提案當天沒有經過委員會討論，直接逕付二讀，冷凍30天以後強行表決，30天、30天喔！把非常多我們民主的前輩在推動公投法、補正的公投法又鎖回去鳥籠，當然，從你的立場或者是現在民進黨很多委員的立場，他們可能忘了過去的那段歷史，所以他們的立場改變，這個我尊重，這個我尊重。但我要說的事情是什麼？我要說的事情是，在我心裡面，2019年那才是走回頭路，鎖回鳥籠公投法才是真的走回頭路，當然主委你有不一樣的看法，我也尊重啦！但這件事情就是立法院所有的立法委員要對歷史負責，要共同決定的事情，包括我們的總統賴清德，當初公投跟選舉要合併舉行，這是我們賴總統在當立委時候的信念，當初的提案，他也是大力的倡議，當然嘛！可能人當上總統了以後想法都會改變，會改變的還包括什麼？來，我再帶主委看一下，主委你說違反公投選舉的結果應辭職，這應該是政治責任，不應該是法律責任，這個也是主委您的看法嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！剛剛甚至有委員說，提這個案子的委員是不想負責任，因為我剛在下面仔細聆聽了以後，我覺得非常的害怕，他做這麼強烈的指控，說提這種法律案的委員只是想要別人負責任，自己不想負責任，我對於這樣的說法，我沒辦法接受，我為什麼沒辦法接受？我跟主委報告，當初賴清德提過一模一樣的案子，我相信我們的賴清德總統當初在當立委的時候，他會提這個法律案絕對不會是因為他自己不想負責任，他只是想要別人負責任，我絕對相信我們的賴清德總統當初在推公投法的補正，釋放鳥籠公投，甚至說什麼？違反公投的結果，權責機關的首長應立即辭職，他當初在提這個案子的時候……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個案子行得通嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！行得通……"],["李主任委員進勇：在法理上是講不通的。"],["黃委員國昌：行得通、行不通，我們到逐條的時候，大家再來討論，但我要駁斥的是什麼？我要駁斥的是民進黨的立委忘了自己過去的理想，指責現在提案的委員不想負責任，所以嘛……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，現在是針對中選會的答詢。"],["黃委員國昌：對、對、對，等一下馬上要由你回答的事情，請你不要急！因為我覺得道理要講清楚，我們這些民主的前輩是因為不想負責任，所以才提這種案子嗎？我個人認為並不是如此，但我今天真的想要請教中選會的是，你們之前有人民對於今年大選提出質疑嘛！是不是你們中選會給人家移送法辦？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：現在結果怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是最近，可能委員關心的是有一位所謂的網紅等人……"],["黃委員國昌：不是只有一位啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：21個人的案子。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！21個人被你們移送法辦了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員國昌：最後結果怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：是不起訴處分。"],["黃委員國昌：你有沒有什麼話想對這21個人講？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，我第一點要講的，就是對於司法機關所做的這個決定，我們予以尊重。第二點，但是我們也深覺遺憾，我為什麼是深覺遺憾呢？因為我認為選舉是民主國家非常重要的一個工程，選舉的成敗攸關到整個民主的進程，所以我的意思是，任何國民對於牽涉到國家社會重大法益，選舉的公正性是一個重大的法益，你要對這個法益提出挑戰、質疑的時候，應該負比一般人更大的注意義務，而我們所提告的這些人對相同的議題，在選前我們一再的透過各種方式來做說明、來做澄清，他們還是沒有盡到這個義務，我們覺得非常的遺憾。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我請教一下主委，這次大選的選務有沒有疏失？"],["李主任委員進勇：個別的疏失當然是有，沒有辦法……"],["黃委員國昌：人民按照那個疏失提出質疑有沒有錯？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有做過說明的、做過澄清的，有些甚至於是無中生有的，都有這種狀況。"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，中選會代表上面是怎麼講的，你們的告訴代理人偵訊的時候表示選務人員確實有未依照作業規定進行開票作業之情形，這個是你們的告訴代理人講的，這不是我說的。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個跟他的不起訴處分、跟這個行為人他所為的言論是不是有對接、有關係，看不出來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我就直接跟你講，來、來、來……"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有否認，我沒有否認，選務會有瑕疵……"],["黃委員國昌：請主委看一下，我剛唸的那個文字全部都是不起訴處分書上面寫的，結果你今天在臺上跟我講說跟不起訴有沒有關係，主委，白紙黑字耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們提告的……"],["黃委員國昌：你要不要再看一次？"],["李主任委員進勇：我知道、我知道，我不是這邊才來看，我之前就看了，就是說那個還必須要做清楚的界定，是不是可以接起來？"],["黃委員國昌：所以中選會要不要提再議？你要不要聲請再議？"],["李主任委員進勇：我目前並沒有準備要提再議，我想透過這樣子事件，大家共同檢討反省，有助於整個事件、有助於民主往良性發展。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦！當你的選務出現疏失，連你們的告訴代理人都承認，你把21個人民推到檢察官那邊，歷經了司法程序，他們所受的痛苦、他們歷經了勞力、時間、費用的浪費，結果今天中選會主委對這些人沒有什麼話要講，你的意思是說……"],["李主任委員進勇：我有話要講……"],["黃委員國昌：你們21個人被我中選會移送，剛好而已啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：我要講的話剛剛已經講過了，就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就說嘛！你今天的立場是不是21個人被我中選會移送剛好而已嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：對於違反國家社會重大法益的事項應該要負更高的注意義務。"],["黃委員國昌：所以，你的立場是不是21個人被我移送剛好而已嘛？就算檢察官不起訴處分，這21個公民過去這段時間所承受的精神壓力、所承受的痛苦，從中選會的立場來講剛好而已，是不是這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：「剛好而已」我是不會用，因為我不知道他的意思是怎麼樣，我是覺得大家都必須要去面對這樣子的行為對於整個國家社會所產生的負面影響。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，我再說一次，中選會的告訴代理人承認確實有未依規定開票之情形，這是客觀的事實，這是你們自己講的哦！第二個……"],["李主任委員進勇：跟我們移送的行為是不是有對接的關係，這個非常重要。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，那你就勇敢地挑戰，說這個檢察官不起訴處分亂寫，跟我移送行為沒有對接關係……"],["李主任委員進勇：遺憾，我們覺得遺憾。"],["黃委員國昌：竟然在不起訴處分書裡面這樣記載，這個檢察官亂寫，法務部要澈底地檢討，那你就勇敢講這句話嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：我不會這樣子講啦，委員可以這樣子講，我做中選會的主委不可以這樣講。"],["黃委員國昌：他們所質疑的影帶有偽造、變造嗎？他們所在質疑的影帶有偽造、變造嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：有些是做過度的延伸。"],["黃委員國昌：請你回答問題，他的影帶有偽造、變造嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有每一件都看。"],["黃委員國昌：來，請你自己看，我白紙黑字也貼在上面，這是不起訴處分書上面寫的，被告是轉貼網路流傳的影片做出評論，沒有變造或剪輯影片的行為。"],["李主任委員進勇：不是轉貼就完全可以撇清責任，你要轉貼，你就知道有很多人可以去聽、可以去看，對整個事件的真相是不是有所模糊。"],["黃委員國昌：所以重點是那個影帶是不是有被變造、是不是有被偽造，今天如果有人偽造、變造影帶去誣衊我們的選務同仁，我跟主委報告，我們大家一定共同譴責，太過分了！但問題是什麼？問題今天調查的結果出來，那些影帶完全沒有偽造、變造，完全沒有偽造、變造啊，然後你們中選會自己的告訴代理人都承認了，選務的確有問題，最後做出了不起訴處分，您作為中選會的主委，連跟這21個人說不好意思，讓你們經歷了這麼痛苦的司法程序，你連這個格局都沒有。"],["李主任委員進勇：對於國家社會重大法益所受到的侵害，大家應該要共同地面對，問題不在於我要不要表示歉意，而是對整個社會、對民主的重大傷害。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問你嘛！選務有沒有缺失嘛，有還是沒有？有還是沒有？"],["李主任委員進勇：我從來沒有說沒有啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：但是有沒有因果關係……"],["黃委員國昌：當選務有缺失的時候，人家提出質疑……"],["李主任委員進勇：你不能咬著這句話……"],["黃委員國昌：你中選會的作法是把人家移送法辦，現在不起訴處分做出來了，你一樣在那邊拗！"],["李主任委員進勇：要共同面對這樣的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所謂的共同面對是什麼？你們坐在辦公室裡面吹冷氣，人家去接受檢察官的拷問，這個叫共同面對喔？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們沒有在吹冷氣，我們還是在辦選務。"],["黃委員國昌：3月自己就承認選務有瑕疵了，上一次在這邊問的時候，你自己就承認了，對這21個公民一句sorry都沒有，一句sorry都沒有！"],["李主任委員進勇：一句有瑕疵咬死中選會也不公平。"],["黃委員國昌：所以人家提出他的評論跟質疑啊，這不是當代法治國家公民受憲法所保障的基本權利嗎？中選會選務有瑕疵，公民不能質疑，你敢質疑，我把你移送法辦！"],["李主任委員進勇：這樣子論述太簡單了。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊，我靜候你精彩的論述……"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是一個國會議員的簡單論述。"],["黃委員國昌：我靜候你精彩的論述啦，我靜候你精彩的論述啊！你們澈底地被打臉了，今天還站在這邊硬拗喔？"],["李主任委員進勇：維護國家社會的法益，這是中選會的責任。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，所以這21個公民受憲法所保障的權利就活該嘛！就活該嘛，被你們中選會移送，活該而已啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：這樣子的講法無助於大家共同來維護選務的尊嚴，沒有幫助，根本沒有幫助。"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛，那你就把選務做好就好了嘛，請你把選務做好，你選務沒有做好，人民提出質疑，結果接下來的下場是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：大家都是共同期待。"],["黃委員國昌：被你移送法辦喔？這是我們中選會在幹的事情喔？"],["主席：接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","請陳菁徽委員、陳菁徽委員，陳菁徽委員不在。","請何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請陳素月委員、陳素月委員，陳素月委員不在。","請林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員，林俊憲委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請沈伯洋委員、沈伯洋委員，沈伯洋委員不在。","請陳秀寳委員、陳秀寳委員，陳秀寳委員不在。","請廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員，廖先翔委員不在。","請徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員，徐富癸委員不在。","請謝龍介委員、謝龍介委員，謝龍介委員不在。","請羅美玲委員、羅美玲委員，羅美玲委員不在。","請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員不在。","請賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員，賴瑞隆委員不在。","請林思銘委員、林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員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service就是出一張嘴、動一動，如果它真的有做到的話，今天不會有這麼多……"],["陳部長世凱：一定是有召回，但沒解決問題啦！"],["黃委員國昌：是，不會有這麼多憤怒的車主嘛！我相信當初很有氣魄做這個承諾的陳文瑞司長，他一定會給你更多背景跟資訊，我們今天第一次、我針對馬自達這件事情，我跟部長報告，我幫這一些可憐的車主陳情，因為其實有很多是年輕人跟中產階級，年輕人跟中產階級花一百多萬去買一台車，大概有很多可能都超過他的年薪了。"],["陳部長世凱：對，還要貸款。"],["黃委員國昌：大家要省吃儉用，甚至分期付款，結果買到一台車，沒有辦法解決行的問題，對他們生活所造成的困擾、障礙跟影響，到現在沒有辦法解決，一個車主跟一個大車商如同小蝦米對大鯨魚，兩者之間在各方面的條件完全沒有辦法相比，所以這些車主為什麼會希望我們交通部要出來主持公道？特別是什麼？特別是我們還有車安中心，在車安中心裡面的計畫裡，召回改正的監督、安全性的分析、瑕疵的調查，在跟立法院要預算的時候，白紙黑字都這樣寫，但你不可以白紙黑字跟立法院要預算說這些我都要做，結果實際都沒有做，當你實際都沒有做的時候，這些可憐無辜受害的車主就會來問我們立法委員，說你們預算在審什麼東西，你給它預算說要做這些事情，結果通通都沒有做，搞到現在這些車主欲哭無淚，因為第一次把這個問題搬到檯面上，麻煩部長回去了解一下這件事情的狀況，接下來要怎麼解決，一個禮拜之內書面回復我，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內，這次沒有問題了嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員、謝謝部長。","陳菁徽、陳菁徽、陳菁徽，陳菁徽委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","李柏毅、李柏毅、李柏毅，李柏毅委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及答詢完畢。二、委員林倩綺、黃健豪所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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這個部分齁 我們民航局其實有一定的了解我是不是請民航局講好 謝謝跟委員報告齁 因為臺映的航權就是我們目前是分配給長榮跟華航那長榮是沒有直飛他是透過co-share的方式來執行那華航的部分目前是沒有計畫在做處理那所以有關航權的部分或者是鼓勵業者的部分我們目前我們會鼓勵他然後也會盡快來看看這個航權的運用怎麼做充分的運用"},{"start":107.661,"end":131.961,"text":"謝謝局長我必須要提醒就是雙邊的關係是越來越弱弱那特別是在這幾年印度的這個經濟成長路還有跟我國的包含學生他的這個學生的成長幅度也很快那現在已經有在臺的印度學生也好或是未來可能開放的這些技術的高科技人員也好我們去的或者是他們來的都會有很明顯幅度的成長"},{"start":133.562,"end":161.499,"text":"其實應方也有多次來跟我們表示說希望有這樣的機會來加強兩國的人員之間的這樣的交流那航線特別是有直飛的話是最方便最快速的方式所以當然一切都是必須以經濟考量為主但是經濟考量不應單一指應單一航線而是必須想到兩國的經貿夥伴關係那這個部分是希望說可以來討論一下那特別提醒今年"},{"start":162.479,"end":183.332,"text":"應該是說去年2023年到現在有相繼的幾個在印度成立的新的辦事處在孟買的辦事處也成立了所以我認為這是一個很好的契機外交部的辦事處也對在駐印的辦事處所以這個部分還是希望說有機會的話可以跟我國的這個航空業者稍微溝通一下這樣子去討論一下"},{"start":184.172,"end":185.193,"text":"高空局局長"},{"start":206.348,"end":227.928,"text":"局長我在10月14日的時候質詢說在我們國道3號我們嘉義縣市現在有4個交通道偵測番路出口告示的規劃那我這邊先肯定一下就是上週已經有回復到那會在我們國道3號中埔交通南向北向的出口那邊來去偵測這個直立型的番路的地名的這個指示標誌"},{"start":228.689,"end":243.841,"text":"那今年年底就會完成對今年年底可以那我們其實不僅僅是翻入鄉是整個山區的鄉長都非常感謝因為在這近三四年來自從疫情結束之後那我們整個大阿里山地區那經過翻入"},{"start":244.601,"end":252.565,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":272.173,"end":298.713,"text":"就是在於我們整體的這個標示上面他們還是會搞混那超車道跟這一個內車道的這樣子他可能是在同一個方向但是他們誤以為在不同方向那這個部分當然是有回復說有的是說擔心是颱風之吹落有的是說不熟悉路線之用路人這樣子的方式會指引錯誤的資訊這個部分我還是認為說大致同意啦"},{"start":299.193,"end":312.536,"text":"但是我們還是認為不要把地名標誌在超車道上面這不是單一個案就是各個縣市偶爾也會有這樣子的狀況那我還是希望說以專業的意見來去檢討一下看怎麼樣更好"},{"start":313.041,"end":341.839,"text":"是 跟委員報告好那因為在擺這個是主要是方向性的一個部分啦那是按次序來就交流道的位置的次序這樣擺的那不是說對應的說你要走哪一個車道才能到哪一個地方對 我的意思是說像比方說我們在梅山竹崎就是有民眾來反映說他們會誤以為超車道就是在那一個出口那我是說有沒有可能在視覺設置上面來再去做改進所以我們後續依照你們的專業意見為準然後是把民眾的反應來跟大家說明一下我們了解 是"},{"start":342.14,"end":342.421,"text":"這個應該要檢討一下"},{"start":346.514,"end":372.656,"text":"謝謝找來那最後是跟台鐵相關那台鐵時刻資訊那我想請董事長來簡單的來回應一下那這個主題我們今天的主題是優化國旅的體驗但是現在台北之戰樂台今年更新的台鐵的系統資訊叫做這個Train Information Display System那很多民眾他們在講到這個視覺效果比方說這個閱讀不易它的中文的字眼只給16x16的燈泡"},{"start":374.798,"end":375.883,"text":"這是一個部分對於這些"},{"start":377.659,"end":404.177,"text":"對於眼睛比較不好的民眾他們可能很難去看清楚說為什麼有襯現的字體又在這麼小的這個顯示區域裡面他的這個視覺的方面可能我們是希望說未來台鐵可以再檢討一下調整是不是調整版面調整字體大小或者是用不同的顏色加注那特別是不開放站票的圖示是不是也要來標誌上去這個部分是有很多民眾在反映我們是希望說有機會的話來去檢討一下這個顯示器的狀況"},{"start":408.521,"end":416.478,"text":"好 這個跟委員報告我們有在持續在檢討 我們會來做改進好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1237,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時28分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：好，麻煩陳部長。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。上禮拜五在總預算質詢的時候，我們有質詢外交部次長關於台印之間的直航因為疫情中斷，目前有沒有在跟外交部來討論復航的相關計畫？"],["陳部長世凱：目前……"],["陳委員冠廷：外交部吳次長有說會儘快跟交通部討論，做一些背景資料嘛！印度是第五大經濟體，台印雙邊的貿易額從2006年的20億美元增加到2022年的109億美元，所以它的貿易額也好或者是產業，包含我們有一些重要企業去印度投資，我相信它成長的速度是非常快的，在這樣的成長速度下，因為疫情而暫時停歇的這個航線，未來的狀況是怎麼樣，是不是可以請部長簡單的跟我們回應一下？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們民航局其實有一定的瞭解，我是不是請民航局長？"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，因為台印的航權，我們目前是分配給長榮跟華航，長榮沒有直飛，它是透過codeshare的方式來執行；華航的部分，目前沒有計畫在處理，所以，有關航權或者是鼓勵業者的部分，我們目前會鼓勵它，也會儘快來看看這個航權怎麼充分的運用。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，我必須要提醒雙邊的關係是越來越熱絡，特別是在這幾年，印度的經濟成長率還有跟我國……包含學生，它學生的成長幅度也很快，現在已經在台的印度學生也好，或是未來可能開放的這些技術的高科技人員也好，我們去的或者是他們來的，都會有很明顯幅度的成長。其實印方也有多次來跟我們表示，希望有這樣的機會，來加強兩國人員之間的交流，航線特別是有直飛的話，是最方便、最快速的方式，當然一切都必須以經濟考量為主，但是經濟考量不應單一只應單一航線，而是必須想到兩國的經貿夥伴關係，這個部分希望可以來討論一下。特別提醒，應該是去（2023）年到現在，相繼有幾個在印度成立的新辦事處，在孟買的辦事處也成立了，所以我認為這是一個很好的契機。"],["陳部長世凱：外交部的辦事處……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，駐印的辦事處。所以這個部分希望有機會的話，還是可以跟我國的航空業者稍微溝通一下，去討論一下。"],["何局長淑萍：好，委員，我再補充一點，除了我國籍的部分以外，其實我們跟外交部與相關單位也在講，印度籍的業者其實我們也非常歡迎來這邊。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好，雙向，這個我們都鼓勵。第二個部分，要請高公局局長。局長，我在10月14日的時候質詢，在我們國道3號，嘉義縣市現在有四個交流道增設番路出口告示的規劃，我這邊先肯定一下，上週你們已經有回復，會在我們國道3號中埔交流南向、北向的出口那邊去增設直立型番路地名的指示標誌，並且今年年底就會完成……"],["趙局長興華：對，今年年底可以。"],["陳委員冠廷：其實不僅僅是番路鄉，整個山區的鄉親都非常感謝，因為在這近3、4年來，自從疫情結束之後，我們整個大阿里山地區……經過番路的不管是各種節慶或活動，確實是需要這樣子適當的標示，有這樣的標示，會讓用路人，特別是從外縣市來的人，能夠更快速地找到他們想要去的地點，所以這個部分，對於高公局的快速反應，我們是非常肯定的。但是有關內側車道標示地名的部分，我們還是想要來表示一下，有一些其他縣市來的用路人，在我們整體的標示上面，他們還是會搞混，超車道跟內側道可能是在同一個方向，但是他們誤以為在不同方向。這個部分當然是有回復，有的是說擔心颱風吹落，有的是說對於不熟悉路線之用路人，怕這樣子的方式會指引錯誤的資訊，這部分我是大致同意啦！但是，我們還是認為不要把地名標誌設在超車道上面，這不是單一個案，各個縣市偶爾也會有這樣子的狀況，我還是希望以專業的意見去檢討一下，看怎麼樣更好。"],["趙局長興華：是，跟委員報告，因為擺這個主要是考量方向性的部分，那是按次序來，就交流道的位置次序這樣擺的，它不是對應說你要走哪個車道才能到哪一個地方。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我的意思是說，比方我們在梅山、竹崎，就是有民眾來反映，他們會誤以為超車道就是在那一個出口，我是說有沒有可能在視覺設置上面再去改進？"],["趙局長興華：是，我們後續再檢討……"],["陳委員冠廷：依照你們的專業意見為準，我只是把民眾的反映來跟大家說明一下。"],["趙局長興華：好，我們瞭解。"],["陳部長世凱：這個應該要檢討一下。"],["陳委員冠廷：召委，是不是可以再一分鐘？最後一個問題，好，謝謝召委。最後是跟臺鐵相關，臺鐵時刻資訊我想請董事長簡單的來回應一下，我們今天的主題是優化國旅的體驗，但是臺北車站月台，今年更新的臺鐵系統資訊就要做train infornmation display system，很多民眾講到視覺效果，比方說閱讀不易，它中文的字元只給16乘以16的燈泡，這是一個部分，對於眼睛比較不好的民眾，他們可能很難去看清楚，有襯線的字體，又在這麼小的這個顯示區域裡面，這個視覺的方面，我們是希望未來臺鐵可以再檢討一下來調整，是不是調整版面、調整字體大小，或者是用不同的顏色加註？特別是不開放站票的圖示，是不是也要標誌上去？這個部分是有很多民眾在反映，我們是希望有機會的話，去檢討一下顯示器的狀況。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個我們有持續在檢討，會來改進。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，謝謝部長。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","下一位蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","黃珊珊委員、黃珊珊委員，黃珊珊委員不在。","洪申翰委員、洪申翰委員，洪申翰委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員，王美惠委員不在。","賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員，賴瑞隆委員不在。","我們接下來請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩有請部長委員好部長好我們整個護理同仁很辛苦勞動條件很差所以流失率很高我相信這個"},{"start":27.116,"end":29.057,"text":"在今年1月的時候我們的衛福部有公告為了要留任護理人員所以有啟動夜班護理人員的獎勵"},{"start":56.672,"end":80.301,"text":"這個部長應該很熟啦然後呢公告的時候當初是這個是我們的衛福部護理及健康照護師對外公告的內容上面我特別框起來包括了專科護理師包括專科護理師但我最近接到很多專科護理師的陳情"},{"start":82.8,"end":105.732,"text":"說當初公告他們明明在裡面當初公告他們明明在裡面結果拖到什麼時候拖到今年8月才開始納入獎勵方案那專科護理師他們心裡啊都不平我相信部長應該可以感同身受啦當初公告有我們啊一直拖拖到8月才給錢大家的心裡是說啊我是比較小害羞"},{"start":107.128,"end":124.286,"text":"我前幾個月做的是白做嗎一般的護理師可以拿到我專科護理師拿不到重點是衛福部一開始公告的專案就包括專科護理師啊為什麼到8月才發之前該給人家沒有給的部長一不應該補回去"},{"start":125.575,"end":144.825,"text":"報告委員我們這個來瞭解如果當時是有有啦有啦部長我跟你講我執行絕對不會做偽造變造的圖卡瞭解瞭解請你放心我不是側翼網軍我絕對不會做偽造變造的圖卡那就是你們衛福部公告的內容甚至來我再給部長看一下是"},{"start":145.365,"end":158.58,"text":"公文113年度全民健康保險強化住院護理照護量能方案這個是衛福部發的公文嘛全民健保會啦來你看一下實施日期113年1月1號到113年12月31號嘛"},{"start":162.25,"end":189.038,"text":"左手邊的公文衛福部的函專科護理師也放在裡面不過就是他有講一個輪子夜班的啦是啦當然是一樣的條件嘛阿現在人就是沒拿到錢嘛所以人夜班的專科醫師沒有拿到錢沒有啊那這個當然就你要補嘛今天承諾囉不要跟我講我會回去研究了一下說沒有錢發不出來"},{"start":196.38,"end":198.661,"text":"我今天只要一個承諾該給人家的給人家有沒有問題"},{"start":219.326,"end":243.758,"text":"當然該給人家 這個當然要這樣做我接下來就看 部長你回去了解完了以後這件事情要怎麼處理可不可以一個禮拜之內 給我書面回覆我覺得公平性是很重要的對啦 因為這些專科護理師加起來有一萬多個人嘛大家心裡都不平啦 想說我們是比較小人還是我晚上都沒有在做 我做了別人有領 我沒有 現在是什麼狀況"},{"start":245.526,"end":259.287,"text":"部長我這樣講你聽得懂啦齁完全聽得懂好第二個齁就是說現在齁護理界在反映的齁就是說三班護病比阿專科護理師的護病比要不要有一些規劃"},{"start":265.484,"end":279.745,"text":"因為我們先回到最基本的觀念啦所謂護病比就是說我們要照顧護理師跟病患兩者之間的權益嘛所以會有護病比這個概念嘛那這個概念在專科護理師不適用嗎"},{"start":281.111,"end":300.918,"text":"專科護理師應該是更 比一般的護理師更 更專 更細膩啊 更 更..其實你說的都沒有錯 就六個大科嘛就六大科 啊 六大科的專科護理師互批評要不要有關話因為當時 當時在補這個夜班 所以他如果上夜班 他在上夜班的方式"},{"start":302.218,"end":324.433,"text":"部長對不起齁,你要跟上問題。夜班今天齁,我們已經game over了。現在再放到第二個問題。第二個問題是專科護理師的戶定比要不要有所規範?專科護理師他的工作性質齁,跟第一線的護理師其實是不太一樣。所以他到底要不要算護理的人力?"},{"start":325.861,"end":350.032,"text":"所以我才回去跟部長講最根本的問題就是說一個人一般的護理師有他的工作職長這個我了解專科護理師有他的工作職長這個我也了解我們從保護醫護他們的權益保護病人權益角度的觀點你從專科護理師工作的性質"},{"start":351.333,"end":359.952,"text":"護病比要不要有一定的規範這個是他們的問題還是說因為他們是專科護理師這件事情就不要規範完全不需要有管制"},{"start":361.289,"end":383.845,"text":"現在這個是他們跟我陳情的問題啦他們沒有機會直接請教部長所以我來這邊請教你放心專科護理師協會是我跟我也幫忙有幫忙有到啦那個都是阿成立的時候你有去嗎?有去沒去我是不會去的啦那是久的事但是他在成立這邊你如果有去你要回去了啦專科護理師"},{"start":385.729,"end":411.064,"text":"有 你在醫院就是常常看到專科護理師對啦 對對對對我相信部長啦 一定對我們專科護理師不會大小眼啦該給的照顧要照顧嘛不可能啦 因為我當時的第一線的護理師現在大概都是變成專科護理師了所以請你針對問題回答專科護理師的護病要不要有規劃你繞了半天以後 你可以這麼簡單的問題你也再寫這樣回去沒辦法"},{"start":413.508,"end":421.752,"text":"我只要一個答案第一個要不要如果不要理由是什麼阿第三個怎麼保障他們的權益一樣因為我時間的關係我也不要"},{"start":437.998,"end":438.679,"text":"我之前就會給委員報告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1310,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時22分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，護理同仁很辛苦，勞動條件很差，所以流失率很高，我相信這個已經是共識了，也是客觀的事實，我們都不用再爭論了，就從這個基礎往上談，現在已經實施的一些措施……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：針對未來要實施的一些措施，要怎麼樣有效的保障醫護人員的權益。來，我先給部長看，在今年1月的時候，衛福部有公告，為了要留任護理人員，啟動夜班護理人員的獎勵，這個部長應該很熟啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是、是。"],["黃委員國昌：當初是衛福部護理及健康照護司對外公告的內容，上面我特別框起來，包括專科護理師，但我最近接到很多專科護理師的陳情，當初公告時，他們明明在裡面，結果拖到什麼時候？拖到今年8月才開始納入獎勵方案。專科護理師他們心理的不平，我相信部長應該可以感同身受。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：當初公告有他們，一直拖到8月才給錢，大家的心裡想說：啊！我是比較「細漢」嗎？我前幾個月做的是是白做嗎？一般的護理師可以拿到，專科護理師卻拿不到？重點是衛福部一開始公告的專案就包括專科護理師啊，為什麼到8月才發？之前該給人家卻沒有給的，部長，應不應該補回去？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們來了解，如果當時是有，應該……"],["黃委員國昌：有啦、有啦。部長，我跟你講，我質詢絕對不會做偽造變造的圖卡。"],["邱部長泰源：了解、了解。"],["黃委員國昌：請你放心，我不是側翼網軍，我絕對不會做偽造變造的圖卡，這就是你們衛福部公告的內容。甚至我再給部長看一下公文……"],["邱部長泰源：好，是。"],["黃委員國昌：113年度全民健康保險強化住院護理照護量能方案，這個是衛福部發的公文，全民健保會……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：來，你看一下實施日期113年1月1號到113年12月31號，左手邊的公文、衛福部的函，專科護理師也放在裡面，部長你有看到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不過，它有講到輪值夜班的啦。"],["黃委員國昌：是啦，當然是一樣的條件嘛，現在人家就是沒拿到錢嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：所以輪夜班的專科護理師沒有拿到錢？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊。"],["邱部長泰源：那這個當然就要……"],["黃委員國昌：你要補嘛，今天承諾囉，不要跟我講，你們回去研究了一下說：沒有錢，發不出來。他們8月才開始領啦，你說他們現在有沒有領，我負責任的跟部長講，有。"],["邱部長泰源：如果值夜班應該都會在裡面……"],["黃委員國昌：我就跟你說沒有嘛，1月到7月都沒有，你回去了解一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我今天只要一個承諾，該給人家的給人家，有沒有問題？"],["邱部長泰源：該給人家的給人家，這個當然要這樣做。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我接下來就看部長你回去了解完以後要怎麼處理這件事情，可不可以一個禮拜之內給我書面回復？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，我覺得公平性是很重要的。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦，因為這些專科護理師加起來有一萬多個人，大家心裡都不平，想說：我們是比較「細漢」，還是我晚上都沒有在做？我做了，別人有領，我卻沒有，現在是什麼狀況？部長，我這樣講你聽得懂？"],["邱部長泰源：完全聽得懂。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個，現在護理界在反映的是三班護病比，專科護理師的護病比要不要有一些規劃？"],["邱部長泰源：現在……"],["黃委員國昌：我們先回到最基本的觀念，所謂護病比就是要照顧護理師跟病患兩者之間的權益，所以會有護病比這個概念，那這個概念在專科護理師不適用嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：專科護理師應該是比一般的護理師更細膩……"],["黃委員國昌：你說的都沒有錯，就六大科嘛，六大科的專科護理師的護病比要不要有規劃？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們當時在補夜班，所以他如果上夜班的方式……"],["黃委員國昌：好啦，部長對不起，你要跟上問題，夜班津貼已經game over了，現在講到第二個問題。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個問題是專科護理師的護病比要不要有所規範？"],["邱部長泰源：專科護理師的工作性質跟第一線護理師其實不太一樣，所以他們到底要不要算護理人力，這個的確是要考量，因為他們一定比較……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才跟部長講最根本的問題嘛，一般的護理師有他的工作職掌，這個我了解。"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["黃委員國昌：專科護理師有他的工作職掌，這個我也了解，我們從保護醫護的權益、保護病人權益的角度觀點，從專科護理師工作的性質，護病比要不要有一定的規範？這個是他們的問題，還是因為他們是專科護理師，這件事情就不要規範，完全不需要有管制？現在這個是他們跟我陳情的問題，他們沒有機會直接請教部長，所以我來這邊請教。"],["邱部長泰源：你放心，專科護理師協會我有幫忙到，那個都是……"],["黃委員國昌：成立的時候你有去嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有去沒去我忘記了，那很久以前的事情，但是他們成立這個……"],["黃委員國昌：你如果有去，你要記得啦！"],["邱部長泰源：你在醫院就常常看到專科護理師……"],["黃委員國昌：對啦，對、對、對。我相信部長一定對專科護理師不會大小眼，該給的照顧要照顧嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：不可能啦，因為我當時的第一線護理師，現在大概都變成專科護理師了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以請你針對問題回答，專科護理師的護病比要不要有規劃？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能……"],["黃委員國昌：你繞了半天，這麼簡單的問題你也可以繞到這麼遠。"],["邱部長泰源：沒辦法算，因為這有一定的制度，我真的要去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你要不要定？"],["邱部長泰源：但是專科護理師應該要有的權益，我們會顧。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我跟你講啦……"],["邱部長泰源：但是他要不要算這個人力……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有人要聽空話啦，我只要一個答案，第一個，要不要？如果不要，理由是什麼？第三個，怎麼保障他們的權益？一樣，因為時間的關係，我也不要讓主席不好意思，這麼多議事人員聽我在上面跟你逼一個答案出來，這麼的痛苦、這麼的花時間……"],["邱部長泰源：不是，它有一定的制度，不是我……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，一個禮拜之內，你用書面回復我。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我去了解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：那你要回去準備好喔，下一次我再來的時候，我的問題就會更直接喔，希望那時候部長對問題的掌握會更清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：我之前就會給委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員，謝謝部長。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員盧縣一所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","議程　邀請衛福部就「社區精神病患照顧優化」專題報告。","請問：","為改善原鄉健康不平等，推動《原住民族健康法》立法完成，使原住民族健康權的實踐從「計畫層次」提升為「法律位階」。且衛福部自107年推動「原鄉健康不平等改善策略行動計畫」，有3大目標，10項行動計畫，以精進原鄉醫療照護模式，請簡述以下計畫目前達成進度：","(一)建構健康的部落","■公費生培育計畫","■部落健康營造計畫","■偏鄉離島醫療資源提升計畫","■原鄉論人計酬試辦計畫","(二)建構健康的家庭","■周產期高風險孕產婦（兒）追蹤關懷計畫","(三)培養健康的個人","■菸酒檳榔防制試辦計畫","■原鄉事故傷害防制試辦計畫","■原鄉三高防治試辦計畫","■原鄉消化系癌症防治試辦計畫","■山地原鄉結核病主動發現計畫"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（13時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156448","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156448","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca40825a9c3c3c7c1c19a570a598ce3c5a9464ce663faeb1c4e2e52fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:10:52 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泰源：不是，不是醫學中心，是教學醫院，南桃園沒有教學醫院。"],["陳委員瑩：不好意思，是醫學中心。"],["邱部長泰源：南桃園當然沒有，因為以桃園來講，就是只有林口長庚醫院是醫學中心。"],["陳委員瑩：對，好，你們剛剛講說打退堂鼓只是單純的合約不清，還有其他原因嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們中央沒有問題，就是……"],["陳委員瑩：不是，等一下，我是請教高醫打退堂鼓到底是什麼原因，因為你講說合約不清，我想知道是什麼比較具體的原因，醫事司幫忙一下，因為部長不是很清楚，你直接回答就好了，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：因為兩造還沒有找到我們醫事司這邊。"],["陳委員瑩：你這樣講就好啦，這樣我們才知道這個問題接下來的步驟應該是什麼。"],["邱部長泰源：可能是他們自己彼此的問題，有時候外面傳出來的，不一定是實際的狀況，但是至少我們醫事司還沒有處理到這個問題。"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以醫事司剛剛回答的是外面傳出來的消息？"],["邱部長泰源：他們的合約有問題這樣？"],["陳委員瑩：對，這是外面傳出來的消息，你們聽到的是這樣子嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：外面傳的消息，它沒有請我們介入。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，我想是這樣子，其實這個合作原本是個好事，我們暫且不論你們核定了多少醫學中心的點值問題，我在這裡先不討論，但是就整個桃園來講，它那個分布，我這樣攤開來看，其實供需上是失衡的。現在桃園市政府，我剛剛有說張市長撂下狠話，然後他們提出兩個方案，第一個，他有提到，要嘛清大來跟市府合作，一起蓋市立醫院，但這個當然是醫學中心等級的一個市立醫院。我是想請教，第一個，因為副市長有做這樣子的公開發表，他們的這個要求可不可行？因為整體的醫療人力要從哪裡來？市府有沒有能力處理這個事情？醫學院、醫師、護理師，這些都是問題，不是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是這樣，最重要的是真的要去評估當地的醫療資源，不是說要看它是不是區域醫院，有區域醫院、有地區醫院……"],["陳委員瑩：部長，是這樣子的，其實我有很多選民在大溪，也很南邊了，當然這個區域、地區醫院……為什麼又要討論醫學中心？就是說大醫院急重症、難症可以往……"],["邱部長泰源：這個在區域醫院就可以完成。"],["陳委員瑩：現在全部都可以完成？"],["邱部長泰源：你看，我們所有的部立醫院都是區域醫院或者是地區醫院。"],["陳委員瑩：所以其實那個都……"],["邱部長泰源：但是他們也肩負起當地……"],["陳委員瑩：那你們都不用再繼續核定了啊！"],["邱部長泰源：他們也都可以肩負起急重症，如果南桃園的部分……"],["陳委員瑩：部長，我剛剛第一個問題就是說他們這樣子，我們有很多的擔憂，市府有沒有能力去統籌、整理這些，看起來其實是有一點天方夜譚。第二個，市府提的方案就是說要清華大學另外找尋合作的對象，清華大學在前天也有表示，他們將會採取BOT的方式招標，然後在桃園青埔新建醫院的這件事情。我是想說，衛福部這裡，既然本席在這裡提出來了，是不是可以請你們主動去多加關心，看看有沒有什麼可以協助的地方？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定去關心，因為所有地區的醫療資源均衡對民眾是適當的，如何協助增加醫療資源都是我們應該要去關心的。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊，而且……"],["邱部長泰源：既然委員提出這個問題，我們會請醫事司馬上去了解，了解了以後再隨時跟委員報告狀況。"],["陳委員瑩：對嘛，如果是按照部長的講法，根本也都完全不需要啊，到時候又會產生很多問題，那這個到底需不需要？但這不是我質詢的重點，只是因為……"],["邱部長泰源：需要……"],["陳委員瑩：你說區域醫院、地區醫院全部都可以處理了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：所以他們現在的訴求是醫學中心，因為醫學中心在那裡也要競爭，要競爭部桃……"],["陳委員瑩：其實……"],["邱部長泰源：那個區域這次部桃就輸給臺大新竹分院。"],["陳委員瑩：因為他們整個園區其實還有醫學教育研發的功能，所以部長先了解他們整個區域的規劃之後，你們再好好的去評估，因為我想有需求，大家才敢去推這個這麼大的計畫嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員瑩：但我覺得是好事情，也要請你們同步關心一下人口的移動，因為那個區域最近真的是超級無敵大爆滿了。"],["邱部長泰源：了解、了解。"],["陳委員瑩：OK，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定要給他們最好的醫療照顧，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156447","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156447","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408dceb6543ef80688dd5d11c4821fdba7d4ce663faeb1c4e2e4cbb1eeebf50ae7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"13:14:53 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謝謝主席那我想針對那個T-PASS通行月票還有這個觀光旅宿的相關議題做質詢我想請部長跟相關部位的首長好 就部長、署長還有司長嘛好 部長、署長、局長、吳安我想請教一下針對我們T-PASS通行月票的部分"},{"start":32.179,"end":47.67,"text":"那交通部目前研擬一套不超過14天的定期票那也預計在今年的12月來試辦那我想請教就針對這種短期票券的規劃及上路的期程相關內容為何?"},{"start":49.011,"end":73.254,"text":"目前短天期宜蘭縣是有提出一個三天期的嘛有提出三天期的已經給我們交通部那我們也審查也有一些修正的意見給他們了那目前這個進度是不是請你跟委員報告就是宜蘭縣他提出是三天的這一個就是包括北部要到宜蘭這邊的包括鐵路跟國道科運還有當地的一些交通的一個整合的一個方案那我們已經審查過了"},{"start":74.275,"end":89.625,"text":"那宜蘭縣政府剛把就是說這個審查意見的這一個修正報告回覆到我們這邊我們是希望能夠協助宜蘭縣政府將配套措施把它做好希望能夠在年底能夠推出來好 所以宜蘭縣政府所送的審查這個申請案件應該是沒問題了"},{"start":90.686,"end":105.985,"text":"原則上應該是可以目前是三天期的那我想再請教一下我們在整合觀光旅宿要來帶動整個國旅的振興那我們要如何來推銷我們這個給國際的觀光客"},{"start":109.329,"end":125.272,"text":"我們剛剛講的這個配套的這個票券我們現在有台灣PASS嘛對我們那是叫做台灣PASS那我們希望剛剛部長也在講希望能夠北北基先做北北基以這個部分看有沒有機會跟TPASS做整合"},{"start":126.013,"end":141.522,"text":"那這邊涉及到這個兩個部分一個是技術面的這個部分就是有關於他的後端的這個都不一樣的系統那第二個就是清分其實TPAS能夠成功其實要有人去清分那個帳"},{"start":142.883,"end":170.132,"text":"臺灣PASS是比較單純所以我們做裝我們希望把T-PASS變成臺灣PASS的部分我們後端的部分會再找我們叫優柯卡公司因為他主要還是清分T-PASS也是如此我們希望能夠一起整合這樣的話對觀光來講是非常方便的我們在機場、在港口、在網路上會不會有相對應的配套的行銷方式"},{"start":170.92,"end":191.077,"text":"行銷的部分我們就是因為它是兩套系統那我們台灣PASS是在國際就有在通路有在行銷那T-PASS的部分我們也可以在入境的部分來做推廣那這個部分如果這個T-PASS的2.0能夠確定上路的話那我們這個部分的國際行銷就同步上路"},{"start":191.417,"end":206.327,"text":"好另外那針對宜蘭縣的這個我們的觀光旅宿迎寒冬的部分那因為宜蘭縣富有非常豐富的這個平原還有山林及龜山島海域的這個溫泉共19處那"},{"start":208.547,"end":223.463,"text":"我希望說我們政府應該積極的來協助結合我們17處的休閒農業區來建置一個跨部會的溫泉發展平台一起來打造宜蘭縣成為溫泉大縣有沒有可能"},{"start":224.592,"end":253.332,"text":"那個部長非常重視了那所以東山河這個部分有些相關的我們也有合訂了這次競爭型計畫有將近3億元的部分我覺得應該可以打造一個很新的亮點那礁溪蘇澳這邊有很多甚至叫冷泉那我們覺得溫泉跟冷泉的行銷可以做一些鏈接那我們是有補助一些國際行銷費用但是我們覺得還是需要可以加大力道了"},{"start":254.092,"end":279.005,"text":"那我們是滾動式檢討剛剛署長您說的這個東山河在上個月我們也啟動了可是在園區裡面我們只看到規劃兩間這個攤屋分別是這個12坪跟16坪的攤屋那未來有沒有可能規劃擴展的空間的計畫您的建議我們會把它納入就是說未來再做擴展那我們現在"},{"start":279.725,"end":308.985,"text":"已經有補助接近3億元那這個部分我們先來做那把這個擴大的部分拉進來討論看可以做到什麼樣的程度那對於這個台灣好湯台灣好湯的這個溫泉美食嘉年華這是宜蘭縣算是冬季的一個行銷的一個重點那再加上其他我們地方型的這種小型的活動那有沒有可能我們為了來振興這個旅宿優惠補助的方面我們有沒有辦法來加碼"},{"start":310.666,"end":329.607,"text":"我們可以秋冬的部分研究看看有沒有溫泉的套票那最近ITF在推廣的時候有很多旅宿他們也在推套票然後也看到溫泉業者他們也很努力我想應該這個部分應該透過這樣的一個旅展應該效益應該還可以看得到"},{"start":330.208,"end":353.729,"text":"好,我還是期待啦期待因為剛剛講的我們宜蘭縣除了有豐富的這個水資源齁我們不管是溫泉、冷泉那還有17處的休閒農業區啦我希望說我們跨部會一起來建置一個平台共同來行銷讓宜蘭縣不管是寒冬或是一年四季我們的這個觀光旅宿都能夠蓬勃發展好,謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝局長好,謝謝陳君宇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1194,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（13時14分）謝謝主席。我想針對TPASS通勤月票還有觀光旅宿的相關議題質詢，請部長跟相關部會的首長。"],["主席：好，請部長、署長還有司長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長、署長、局長午安。我想請教一下，針對TPASS通勤月票的部分，交通部目前研擬一套不超過14天的定期票，也預計在今年12月來試辦，我想請教針對這種短期票券的規劃及上路的期程相關內容為何？"],["陳部長世凱：關於短天期，目前宜蘭縣有提出一個3天期的，已經有提出3天期的給交通部，我們也審查了，也有一些修正的意見給他們了，目前這個進度是不是請局長說明？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，宜蘭縣提出3天的票券，包括北部要到宜蘭這邊的，包括鐵路跟國道客運還有當地一些交通的整合方案，我們已經審查過了，宜蘭縣政府剛把審查意見的修正報告回復到我們這邊，我們希望能夠協助宜蘭縣政府將配套措施做好，希望能夠在年底推出來。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，所以宜蘭縣政府所送的申請案件應該是沒問題了？修正之後就沒問題了？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，原則上應該是可以……"],["陳委員俊宇：目前是3天期的？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我想再請教一下，我們在整合觀光旅宿，要來帶動整個國旅的振興，我們要如何推銷剛剛講的配套票券給國際觀光客？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在有Taiwan PASS，對不對？"],["周署長永暉：對，我們這個叫Taiwan PASS，剛剛部長也在講，希望北北基先做，看北北基這個部分有沒有機會跟TPASS整合，這邊涉及到兩個部分，一個是技術面的部分，就是有關於它後端的這個，都是不一樣的系統；第二個就是清分，其實TPASS要能夠成功，要有人去清分那個帳，而Taiwan PASS比較單純，所以我們做莊，我們希望把TPASS變成Taiwan PASS，我們後端的部分會再找悠遊卡公司，因為它主要還是清分，TPASS也是如此，我們希望能夠一起整合，這樣對觀光來講非常方便。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那我們在機場、在港口、在網路上會不會有相對應的配套行銷方式？"],["周署長永暉：關於行銷的部分，因為它是兩套系統，Taiwan PASS在國際通路有在行銷，那TPASS的部分我們也可以在入境時來做推廣，關於這個部分，如果TPASS 2.0能夠確定上路的話，那國際行銷的部分就會同步上路。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外針對宜蘭縣觀光旅宿迎寒冬的部分，因為宜蘭縣富有非常豐富的平原、山林及龜山島海域的溫泉，共19處，我希望政府應該積極的來協助，結合17處的休閒農業區，來建置一個跨部會的溫泉發展平台，一起打造宜蘭縣成為溫泉大縣，有沒有可能？"],["周署長永暉：部長非常重視，所以冬山河這個部分有些相關的，我們也有核定了，這次競爭型計畫將近3億元，我覺得應該可以打造一個很新的亮點，至於礁溪、蘇澳這邊有很多溫泉，甚至叫冷泉，我們覺得溫泉跟冷泉的行銷可以做一些鏈結，我們是有補助一些國際行銷費用，但是我們覺得還是可以加大力道，我們會滾動式檢討。"],["陳委員俊宇：剛剛署長說的冬山河，在上個月我們也啟動了，可是在園區裡面我們只看到規劃了2間湯屋，分別是12坪跟16坪的湯屋，未來有沒有可能規劃擴展空間的計畫？"],["陳部長世凱：未來在擴展時我們會納入委員的建議，我們現在已經有補助接近3億元，這個部分我們先來做，把這個擴大的部分拉進來討論，看可以做到什麼樣的程度。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，台灣好湯─溫泉美食嘉年華，這算是宜蘭縣冬季行銷的一個重點，再加上其他地方型的小型活動，為了振興旅宿，優惠補助的方面，我們有沒有辦法來加碼？"],["周署長永暉：秋冬的部分我們可以研究看看有沒有溫泉的套票，最近ITF在推廣的時候，有很多旅宿也在推套票，我也看到溫泉業者很努力，我想這個部分透過這樣的旅展，應該還可以看得到效益。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我還是期待，因為剛剛講的我們宜蘭縣除了有豐富的水資源，不管是溫泉、冷泉，還有17處的休閒農業區，我希望我們跨部會一起來建置一個平台，共同來行銷，讓宜蘭縣不管是寒冬或是一年四季，我們的觀光旅宿都能夠蓬勃發展。謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝局長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員。接下來我們請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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完全發言 邀請部長我要特別感謝林委員跟我換次序 謝謝麻煩陳委員 陳部長 Sorry"},{"start":10.373,"end":36.889,"text":"部長我們針對於10月25號交通部公布上一週交通事故的死亡資料整體的死亡人數再創7月份的最高單週最高交通部也表示桃園連續4個月死亡人數上升台中市近期大型的事故多所以這個月必須要附中央的檔案匯報來做專案報告"},{"start":39.451,"end":56.633,"text":"那這個也是創下了首次首長要這個這個交通部首次要求縣市來報告改善作為這個都好但是呢我們來討論一個計價的這個計算的方式計算的方式那麼交通部的數據"},{"start":58.555,"end":64.88,"text":"沒有依照內政部內政部的方式是以10萬人為計算基礎導致道路交通事故的結果它會掩蓋掉我們不分哪一個政黨"},{"start":74.847,"end":92.237,"text":"掩蓋掉其中有限市其實如果以內政部的10萬人為基礎呢他是以民進黨執政的臺南他才是真正的六都當中交通死亡的第一情況所以本席要在這邊請教部長"},{"start":93.738,"end":108.473,"text":"也就是我們不希望任何一個縣市有升高也有這樣的現象而且這不分藍綠但是很明顯的我們看出我們深怕的如果以你目前的計算方式跟內政部的計算方式我們怕會有漏網之魚"},{"start":111.156,"end":139.89,"text":"會有落網之魚也就是如果以內政部10萬人為基準的計算方式那台南市會是最嚴肅的那所以本席要強調的就是說這個不分藍綠但是我深怕會跑掉了落網之魚的一個改善期所以本席具體建議是不是全國統一制內政部的方式是以10萬人為基準那請教部長是不是"},{"start":140.39,"end":166.716,"text":"可以去研討我們目前那個交通部所公布的數字是兩個都有您在說的交通部的數字也有那您在說的這個10萬人的數字也有我們是兩邊綜合評估而且我們這兩個數字其實都一樣上網公告在網路上面的公告這兩個數字都有都一樣都會公告所以本期要跟你討論的也就是說如果以10萬人為基礎來做計算那麼台中市它不是最嚴肅的"},{"start":167.856,"end":169.177,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":187.533,"end":211.35,"text":"所以我們用的數字會比較側重在行人、道安的部分哪一個方式都是我們重要的所以本席要具體給你建議你是不是應該你交通部跟內政部你們的計算方式你不要讓人民去模糊不一樣你的計算方式是之一那人家內政部公布的方式跟你公布的方式是不一那人民會無所謂所以我具體給你建議你們是不是去討論"},{"start":215.453,"end":226.526,"text":"你們是不是依照像你現在已經在用那麼是不是依照內政部的方式去檢討或許你還有更佳的方式藉著這個機會好好的專案去研討好不好好不好多久時間告訴本席"},{"start":231.782,"end":235.705,"text":"我們一個月以內來討論因為有提出這樣子的意見我們必須要去檢討制度面最重要好不好一個月內來研討本期跟你討論觀光的問題我們截至8月份我們只有496.9萬國際觀光客來臺"},{"start":251.898,"end":280.277,"text":"但是國人出境的是1138.8萬人次所以你的差距是將近2.3倍2.3倍那大家你們也提出觀光署也提出一個什麼呢臺灣觀光100亮點100亮點你的目標是什麼觀光署長你自己講你的目標是什麼你自己講我們就是希望能夠活絡你多少人次你的目標我們的多少人次當然我們國旅的部分是1.9億人次"},{"start":283.039,"end":288.543,"text":"1.9億就將近2億人次你希望創造國際旅客創造出多少的觀光產值"},{"start":290.143,"end":318.197,"text":"是 我們希望透過你希望創造多少 你的KPI對 我們的產值是當時的設定方式是大概記得是700億人次700億你加計光國際旅客部長你聽創造出要8000億以上的觀光產值我已經給你open book了你自己都講不清楚不好意思 我以為你在提什麼不好意思"},{"start":318.757,"end":346.695,"text":"百大亮點的部分部長啊你這個是苦笑啊我告訴你你現在你現在你現在要怎麼樣脫困因為我們國內有一句話說我出來國外比較兇你怎麼協助我們國內的產業你怎麼協助這是嚴肅的議題啊你自己設定的KPI落差那麼大出國跟來我們台灣玩的差了2.3倍那是怎麼辦"},{"start":347.899,"end":366.817,"text":"差距那麼多這個目標還是持續在走啊因為產值的部分是有包括兩個部分一個是旅行業、旅館業跟遊樂區業當然第二個部分才是相關產業包括我們石塑油構型的相關產業包括航空業你當任一級主管你要針對你的結果論去討論現在面對的問題"},{"start":372.668,"end":392.922,"text":"國內他的經濟高所以要怎麼樣去協助國內我們的觀光產業這才是我們今天討論的重點所以部長你聽到了資料哩哩喇喇方案我希望要精進所以請你去整體研討2.3倍你要怎麼樣去研討"},{"start":393.943,"end":413.136,"text":"你怎麼樣去精進方案好不好你怎麼樣協助我們國內的這個觀光旅遊業因為你國內好人家才會進來嘛對不對甚至連我們的都走掉啦那你兩邊落空啊那我們國內的這些觀光業怎麼辦呢你多久時間把方案給本席你去討論你去討論精進方案"},{"start":415.518,"end":437.786,"text":"多久時間已經有方案我們把方案再提供給委員部長你現在在做的就是我告訴你的這個數字是不滿意的你去精進好不好好多久時間告訴本席我們已經有方案但是我還會再跟他們提供精進方案你去精進多久時間告訴本席我明年會有一個新的方案提出來給委員好不好那換句話說兩個月嘛對不對現在11月嘛對不對你兩個月內去檢討"},{"start":441.988,"end":445.379,"text":"依照你目前的方案你怎麼去精進給本期怎麼樣協助國內的產業好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時7分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長，我要特別感謝林委員跟我換次序，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，10月25號交通部公布上一週交通事故的死亡資料，整體的死亡人數再創7月份的單週最高，交通部也表示，桃園連續4個月死亡人數上升，臺中市近期大型的事故多，所以這個月必須要赴中央的道安會報來做專案報告。"],["陳部長世凱：是，臺中跟桃園。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個也是創下了交通部首次要求縣市來報告改善作為，這個都好，但是我們來討論計算的方式。交通部的數據沒有依照內政部的方式，內政部的方式是以10萬人為計算基礎，導致道路交通事故的結果會被掩蓋掉！我們不分哪一個政黨，其中有縣市會被掩蓋掉，其實如果以內政部的10萬人為基礎，民進黨執政的臺南才是真正在六都當中交通死亡情況的第一！","所以本席要在這邊請教部長，我們不希望任何一個縣市有升高、有這樣現象，而且這不分藍綠，但是我們很明顯的看出，我們深怕的是，如果以你目前的計算方式跟內政部的計算方式，我們怕會有漏網之魚！如果以內政部10萬人為基準的計算方式，那臺南市會是最嚴重的。所以本席要強調的就是，這個不分藍綠，但是我深怕會錯失漏網之魚的改善期！所以本席具體建議，是不是全國統一制度？內政部的方式是以10萬人為基準，請教部長，是不是可以去研討？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前交通部公布的數字是兩個都有，您在說的交通部的數字也有，那您在說的這個10萬人的數字也有，我們是兩邊綜合評估，而且我們這兩個數字其實都一樣有上網公告，在網路上面的公告這兩個數字都有，都一樣、都會公告出來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要跟你討論的是，如果以10萬人為基礎來計算，那麼中市不是最嚴重的，甚至是在六都裡頭的第三低……"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們不是說要比較哪一個縣市，我們是說你的制度方面，你要怎麼樣去討論，讓它有一個一致性。"],["陳部長世凱：是，關於道路安全目前大家比較關注的是行人的道安，所以我們用的數字會比較側重在行人道安的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哪一個方式對我們都是重要的，所以本席要具體跟你建議……"],["陳部長世凱：這個數字我們也一樣有公布……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們交通部是不是應該跟內政部討論？你們的計算方式不要讓人民去模糊……"],["陳部長世凱：其實都一樣，這個也是我們的計算方式之一，都一樣啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不一樣！你的計算方式是之一，內政部公布的方式跟你公布的方式不一，人民會「霧煞煞」，所以我具體跟你建議你們是不是去討論一下？像你現在已經在用，那麼是不是依照內政部的方式去檢討，或許你還有更佳的方式，藉著這個機會好好的去專案研討，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來研討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間可以告訴本席？"],["陳部長世凱：我們一個月以內來討論這件事，好不好？但我還是要再跟委員報告，這個數字我們都有在使用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月以內？因為有提出這樣的意見，我們必須要去檢討，制度面最重要，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個數字我們都有在使用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月內來研討。好，接下來本席跟你討論觀光的問題，截至8月份，我們只有496.9萬國際觀光客來台，但是國人出境卻是1,138.8萬人次，差距將近2.3倍，觀光署提出了什麼呢？台灣觀光100亮點，你的目標是什麼？觀光署署長，你自己講，你的目標是什麼？你自己講，多少人次？你的目標？多少人次？"],["周署長永暉：我們希望能夠活絡國旅，當然我們國旅的部分是1.9億人次。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1.9億，將近2億人次。"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你希望國際旅客創造出多少的觀光產值？你希望創造多少？你自己講你的KPI。"],["周署長永暉：對，我們產值當時的設定方式我記得大概是700億人次，700億……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你加計國際旅客……部長你聽！創造8,000億以上的觀光產值！"],["周署長永暉：對不起，委員我沒有聽懂你的意思，你是說整體是嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我已經給你open book了，你自己都講不清楚，！"],["周署長永暉：不好意思，我以為你在提百大亮點的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼不好意思！部長，你這個是苦笑，我告訴你，你現在……"],["陳部長世凱：總產值希望可以達到8,000億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在要怎麼樣脫困？因為國內有一句話說去國外玩比較便宜，你怎麼協助我們國內的產業？你怎麼協助？這是嚴肅的議題，你自己設定的KPI落差那麼大，出國跟來我們台灣玩的差了2.3倍，這怎麼辦？差距那麼多。"],["周署長永暉：這個目標還是持續在走，因為產值的部分有包括兩個部分，一個是旅行業、旅館業跟遊樂區業……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然。"],["周署長永暉：第二個部分才是相關產業，包括食、宿、遊、購、行的相關產業，包括航空業……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長，你擔任一級主管，你要針對你的結果去討論，現在面對的問題是國內的經濟高，要怎麼樣去協助國內的觀光產業，這才是我們今天討論的重點，部長你聽到了，資料零零落落，我希望方案要精進，所以請你去整體研討，差了2.3倍，你看怎麼樣去研討，怎麼樣去精進方案，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼樣協助我們國內的觀光旅遊業？因為國內好，人家才會進來嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：甚至連我們的都走掉了，那你兩邊落空啊！那我們國內的這些觀光業要怎麼辦呢？你多久時間把方案給本席？你去討論，你去討論精進方案，多久時間？"],["陳部長世凱：其實我們已經有方案，是不是跟委員報告一下？"],["周署長永暉：我們再把方案提供給委員，有一套完整的方案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在在做的就是我告訴你的這個數字，是不滿意的，你去精進，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間告訴本席？"],["陳部長世凱：我們已經有方案，但是我還會再跟他們討論精進方案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你精進方案後多久時間會告訴本席？"],["陳部長世凱：我明年會有一個新的方案提出來給委員，好不好？現在的方案……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說要2個月嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：現在的方案可以先給委員看。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在11月嘛，對不對？你2個月內去檢討，依照你目前的方案，你怎麼去精進、怎麼樣協助國內的產業，再給本席，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（廖委員先翔代）：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。接著請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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我們請交通部陳部長有請陳部長"},{"start":12.028,"end":31.487,"text":"部長我先前在擔任市議員的時候是松山區跟新義區的市議員當然在選區劃分上面到立法委員的時期北松山也就是松山機場這一塊劃分出來當然我們還是很關心在整個臺北市裡面包含我過去的選區的問題"},{"start":33.929,"end":52.376,"text":"所以像松山機場的部分其實就有很多噪音就造成包含是周邊的居民他們影響非常的大我想要請教一下為了讓機場周遭的住戶能夠減少影響我們其實在機場周邊是有噪音補償金的這個補償金是總共有93,300戶可以領取並且分為一到三級那三級的影響是最大的"},{"start":63.28,"end":64.02,"text":"我想問的是從民國87年到現在113年已經過了26年請問我們目前補助了多少戶還有幾戶沒有補助到"},{"start":76.345,"end":98.745,"text":"目前是7300戶可是我看委員這邊是總共有九萬三千戶總共有九萬三千戶要補助沒有錯嘛但我要問的是說我們總共補助了多少戶這次九萬三千戶裡面我們到底就是他應該要補助的是九萬三千戶沒有錯我給你看的數字很清楚了但是呢我們目前針對這個26年來喔到底補助了幾戶"},{"start":102.749,"end":106.351,"text":"現在補助到第2級的67分配所以是總共應該有11100戶那目前補助的是總共是7300萬戶所以大概還有8萬戶左右是還沒有拿到補助的對不對"},{"start":123.834,"end":142.007,"text":"而且啊我知道光是在二級的部分也就是65分貝以上以及未達75分貝二級噪音的這個區域裡面還有9603戶沒有辦法被得到他的補償金那部長我要跟您澄清的事情是這是從民國87年到113年我們應該要提撥給他們的補助竟然還有這麼多是沒有補助完成的"},{"start":149.793,"end":161.992,"text":"那當然我們知道原因可是如果要把這個補償金發完的話我們算過這個速度以這個速度來講每年你只通知450戶二級的還要21年一級的還要163年總共你要"},{"start":165.077,"end":172.762,"text":"你要把它補助完畢需要184年我都不知道死幾次了所以我想要問一下就是說這個補助進度到底要怎麼樣才能讓它盡快的讓居民得到補償否則你設立了這個補助金那民眾呢看得到吃不到然後補助的速度這麼慢這麼慢的情況下大家當然會有所不滿對周邊的住戶來說也相當不公平"},{"start":191.275,"end":214.602,"text":"所以想要問的部長是說能不能幫助我們這個東山機場周邊的居民能夠來加快這個補償速度有沒有一些具體的作為跟做法是 報告委員我看這個數字我也覺得不太合理如果我是住在那邊的居民我會覺得到184年才能夠拿得到那個真的是太久了是啊 我都死兩三次"},{"start":215.862,"end":242.177,"text":"不過它很像裡面的那個計算的那個補償金的那個規劃的部分有它的一定的公式所以速度才會這麼慢是不是請局長先回答說這個不用回答我已經給你看公式了我們公式我們都知道但我們現在要的是檢討就是說你現在是用17塊乘以最大起重量然後加95塊乘以起飛量減7載這我是知道的但我們希望得到的是一個檢討"},{"start":243.137,"end":253.264,"text":"就是說既然已經有補助金然後告訴大家了那就不能用這麼慢的補助方式補助給大家這是我們交通部應該需要檢討的那是不是能夠給我們一個具體的方案來解決這個問題部長能不能夠承諾"},{"start":258.448,"end":277.075,"text":"報告委員他目前是針對這個航班的部分航班多班次多他的收取的費用就多然後發給居民的速度就快但是現在航班不是說能夠增加就增加不過計算的公式或許我們可以來檢討一下我們來檢討說計算的公式怎麼樣可以讓他速度再更快一些這個部分我們來討論一下"},{"start":277.895,"end":296.137,"text":"好那最後我要問一下這個臺中國際機場的部分那其實像現在剛才很多人都在關心說臺灣的這個旅客數那其實如果說像是臺中國際機場能夠有更多固定的班次跟航班不是用包機的情況的話那或許呢可以提升很多中部的觀光"},{"start":296.858,"end":323.358,"text":"像是我對於這個清淨農場非常的在意因為那是我們在國防部這個退伏費的土地那呢南投他們清淨農場在疫情之後他的整個觀光旅客數下降很多所以台中離南投相對近如果能夠有持續的這個包機不是用包機的方式是用定期的定期航班的方式的話可能就可以增加一些旅客尤其我們其實像去年好了我們在國外的這個展覽就有推廣清淨農場"},{"start":324.659,"end":329.981,"text":"可是有沒有推廣清淨農場之後他從桃園機場下來要到清淨農場其實老實說對於這一些旅客來說是非常麻煩的所以成效不彰我在國防外交委員會有問過同樣的問題所以我想要拜託因為時間不夠的關係我也想要拜託說未來在這個振興整個台中相關中南部的經濟上面台中機場的航線如果能夠增加更多定期的這個"},{"start":350.669,"end":351.89,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（13時1分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，我先前擔任市議員的時候是松山區跟信義區的市議員，在選區劃分上面到了立法委員的時期，北松山──也就是松山機場這一塊劃分出來的，當然我還是很關心整個臺北市，包含我過去選區的問題。","像松山機場的部分其實就有很多噪音造成周邊居民非常大的影響，我想要請教一下，為了讓機場周遭的住戶能夠減少影響，其實在機場周邊有噪音補償金，總共有9萬3,300戶可以領取，並且分為一到三級，而三級的影響是最大的。我想問的是，從民國87年到現在113年已經過了26年，請問我們目前補助了多少戶？還有幾戶沒有補助到？"],["陳部長世凱：目前是7,300戶，可是我看委員這邊總共有9萬3,000戶……"],["徐委員巧芯：總共有9萬3,000戶要補助，沒有錯嘛！但我要問的是，我們總共補助了多少戶？這次9萬3,000戶裡面我們到底……應該要補助的是9萬3,000戶，沒有錯，我給你看的數字很清楚了，但是我們目前這26年來到底補助了幾戶？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是請民航局來回答？"],["徐委員巧芯：可以，沒有問題，任何人幫忙回答都可以。"],["何局長淑萍：現在補助到第二級的67分貝，所以總共應該有1萬1,100戶，目前補助的總共是7,300戶……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以大概還有8萬戶左右還沒有拿到補助，對不對？而且……"],["何局長淑萍：有分……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，光是在二級的部分，也就是65分貝以上以及未達75分貝的二級噪音區域裡面，還有9,603戶沒有辦法得到他的補償金。","部長，我要跟您陳情的事情是，這是從民國87年到113年我們應該要提撥給他們的補助，竟然還有這麼多沒有補助完成，當然我們知道原因，如果要把這個補償金發完的話，我們算過這個速度，以這個速度來講，每年你只通知450戶，二級的還要21年、一級的還要163年，你要把他補助完畢總共需要184年，我都不知道死幾次了！所以我想要問一下，這個補助進度到底要怎麼樣才能儘快地讓居民得到補償？否則你設立了這個補助金，民眾看得到、吃不到，然後在補助速度這麼慢、這麼慢的情況下，大家當然會有所不滿，對周邊的住戶來說也相當不公平！所以我想要問部長，能不能幫助松山機場周邊的居民加快補償速度？有沒有一些具體的作為跟作法？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我看這個數字也覺得不太合理，如果我是住在那邊的居民，會覺得184年才能夠拿得到真的是太久了。"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊，我都死兩、三次了。"],["陳部長世凱：對，不過其中計算補償金的規劃部分有其一定的公式，所以速度才會這麼慢，是不是局長先回答……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個不用回答，我已經給你看公式了，公式我們都知道，但我們現在要的是檢討，你現在是用17塊乘以最大起飛重量，然後加95塊乘以起飛音量減73，這我是知道的，但我們希望得到的是一個檢討，既然已經有補助金，也告訴大家了，那就不能用這麼慢的補助方式補助給大家！這是交通部需要檢討的，是不是能夠給我們一個具體的方案來解決這個問題？部長能不能夠承諾？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前是針對航班的部分，航班多、班次多、收取的費用就多，然後發給居民的速度就快，但現在航班不是說增加就能夠增加，不過計算的公式或許可以來檢討一下，我們來檢討看看計算的公式怎麼樣可以讓這個速度再更快一些，這個部分我們來討論一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後，我要問一下臺中國際機場的部分，剛才很多人都在關心台灣的旅客數，如果臺中國際機場能夠有更多固定的班次跟航班，而不是用包機的話，或許可以提升很多中部的觀光。","像是我對於清境農場非常在意，因為那是我們退輔會的土地，南投清境農場在疫情之後整體觀光旅客數下降很多，臺中離南投相對近，如果能夠有持續的包機，不是用包機的方式，而是用定期的、定期航班方式的話，可能就可以增加一些旅客。其實像去年，我們在國外的展覽就有推廣清境農場，可是在我們有推廣清境農場之後，他從桃園機場下來要到清境農場，老實說，對於這一些旅客來說是非常麻煩的，因此成效不彰，我在外交及國防委員會有問過同樣的問題。因為時間不夠的關係，我想要拜託，未來在振興臺中、中南部的經濟上面，臺中機場的航線如果能夠增加更多定期機次、航班的話，那對於整個中台灣以南，可以增加更多觀光旅客的收入，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這我們來努力。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員。","再來有請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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病應該要朝向社區化的照護發展為目標。那當然這個其中裡面有很多的問題必須要去克服。那我先問一下,就是說根據統計"},{"start":33.439,"end":34.76,"text":"請問一下部長就是使用者不高的主因是什麼?"},{"start":63.439,"end":88.364,"text":"好,謝謝委員,這隨行因為把精神病患引導向測序化的照護這個是一個很好的目標當然我剛才也說了會引申很多的問題那不過我們還是要既然這是目標還是要有越多人使用越好那"},{"start":91.343,"end":101.559,"text":"使用這個社區式服務的人數不高的主因是什麼?謝謝委員只是這個我們努力的方向那是不是請那個新鮮師跟我們報告"},{"start":103.664,"end":124.632,"text":"報告委員不管是心理健康師或是社家屬其實我們對於這個精神病人的社區支持資源的部件我們都非常的努力那委員剛剛有提到就是說目前看起來使用這個服務的人數並不多比例太低了那我想應該是有兩個因素第一個因素就是說我們目前資源還在佈建的路上"},{"start":124.872,"end":125.172,"text":"主席"},{"start":142.022,"end":160.862,"text":"﹗"},{"start":161.022,"end":163.064,"text":"所以你剛剛講的就是你們接下來要怎麼增進然後落實這個政策的方法對不對?是好那這就有一個問題是"},{"start":186.96,"end":210.878,"text":"你們在辦理精神病人社會關懷照護計畫的時候呢他大概是由公衛護理師然後社區的關懷員來做以面試的方式做的建構出來的通報系統對不對那社區訪視員"},{"start":216.071,"end":229.001,"text":"我這邊有的資料是全國社區訪視員的人力包括督導我連督導都算進去大概就只有600人這個人力夠嗎?"},{"start":233.082,"end":255.615,"text":"五百九十二人。五百九十二人,對。這個人力夠嗎?沒有夠,不夠的。這個就一直,問題就一直停在這裡,就是我們長期以來明明就是社政這一方面的人力,從照護員、訪視員、社工的人力都很不足。"},{"start":261.06,"end":278.619,"text":"我發現我在這邊質詢這個好像就是一直質詢一個無解的問題啊你知道我國社區訪視員負擔個案的案件量跟日本相比日本是1比10"},{"start":280.731,"end":289.938,"text":"我們目前社區訪視員一個人平均負責訪視的案量大概就有50人是日本的10倍沒有要讓你們說啊這個怎麼解決啊我覺得不應該只是一直在委員會說要增加人力啦增加人力必須要拿出具體的辦法出來而且必須要提高誘因啦"},{"start":311.57,"end":326.701,"text":"是,這也是跟護理師、網絡護理師一樣面對要從多元化來解決今天早上我們已經討論那麼久如果我只是回答說我們在努力我想也不具體啦就是我會認為從剛剛那個連江縣體那個特別的訓練那個也特別的計畫這個也是一個"},{"start":341.281,"end":363.132,"text":"這個我就提一下就是說你整體的社會你薪資待遇跟社會地位不強化公費生也沒有用因為我們澎湖就離島也有護理系的保送生都沒有人報考"},{"start":368.001,"end":377.543,"text":"你整體的還是必須要從整體的結構上來做使力才有效果啦是是是"},{"start":378.59,"end":407.529,"text":"所以怎麼樣讓在提他的工作環境好,其實社工是我們在醫療團隊裡面一直都是非常重要的,像你在醫院也一樣,醫生做醫生,護士做護士,什麼不做的幾乎都是社工來做的。從社工到照服員都一樣,就是整個社政系統裡面。而且到社區以後都是更需要很龐大的這些人力,那怎麼樣讓這些人力他們因為"},{"start":408.757,"end":433.509,"text":"就是因為他們做這個專業也是很有專業的使命感尊榮感對嘛所以才說國家有多餘稅收的時候不能發現金嘛應該要用來提高某一些人的薪資待遇或者是用來補勞健保嘛這個就是我一直的主張嘛"},{"start":434.704,"end":443.761,"text":"我最後花一點時間跟部長討論一下部長我大概從我在這個委員會第4屆了"},{"start":446.206,"end":472.611,"text":"我大概討論醫學中心因為像剛剛陳雪生委員在這邊講的臺灣的醫療資源分佈太不平均了所以我就是知道醫學中心每增加一家就會把點值稀釋掉一部分所以大概在這邊一直要求"},{"start":474.964,"end":499.949,"text":"醫學中心就是必須要定額只有你們一次評鑑增加了三家把整個除了民眾看病的致富額以外典值整個也吸制那執政黨呢用評鑑送醫院大禮"},{"start":501.598,"end":515.712,"text":"那在野檔就要保障點子多少錢?阿你如果繼續警告我就支持點子保障阿,要報就大家報到阿。不只我講阿,我現在講的是監察院對你們的糾正阿。"},{"start":524.195,"end":548.554,"text":"沒有那種既定的應該有既定的政策就是我就常講我來自離島很深刻的瞭解資源的分布有多不平均你們現在都會區全國還有14個縣市沒有醫學中心不是只有南北差距而已"},{"start":551.769,"end":568.887,"text":"你們真的不要再用憑鑒來送大禮用憑鑒來送醫院大禮我就支持點子保障一口不夠保障1.2部長你有要講一下嗎?還是要聽我講?"},{"start":576.876,"end":577.557,"text":"是,這個真的是那個分級醫療"},{"start":597.14,"end":597.16,"text":"對阿"},{"start":626.753,"end":641.782,"text":"但是你現在就是特管期,你也很了解特管期一定要藝術中心嘛我現在不是說應該要特管期,我說你們應該要,就是定額20家的話,就是要有升有降,大家有競爭都有壓力嘛你現在不在講,就一直在講我現在主張有升有降啊,這也是醫學中心必須要納入評鑑"},{"start":653.092,"end":653.112,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1198,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時59分）謝謝主席。請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好，世衛組織有提出精神疾病應該要朝向社區化的照護發展為目標，當然其中有很多的問題必須要去克服。我先問一下，根據統計，在112年領有慢性精神病障礙手冊的大概有超過13萬，但是這一些人使用社區式服務的人數其實大概只有5,000人，不到一成，請問一下部長，使用者不高的主因是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的垂詢……"],["楊委員曜：因為把精神病患引導向社區化的照護是一個很好的目標，當然我剛才也說了，會衍生很多的問題，不過既然這是目標，還是要有越多人使用越好，使用社區式服務人數不高的主因是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員指出我們努力的方向，是不是請心健司跟我們報告呢？"],["楊委員曜：好。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：報告委員，不管是心理健康司或者是社家署，其實我們對於精神病人的社區支持、資源布建都非常地努力。委員剛剛有提到，目前看起來使用這個服務的人數並不多……"],["楊委員曜：比例太低了。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：對，我想應該是有兩個因素，第一個因素，我們目前資源還在布建的路上，所以有提供這個服務的民間機構是比較少的，這個部分其實我們已經有爭取到資源，希望能夠逐年把補助的機構數跟補助的經費都可以提升，基本上讓我們在服務提供的部分可以更加充足。第二個因素，可能是病人沒有來使用我們的服務方案，所以這個部分我們會加強跟地方政府的一個連結，就是在社區裡面的個案，也會透過我們的關懷訪視員來連結個案跟我們的服務方案之間，希望能夠鼓勵他們出來參加我們的方案，我想大概是這兩個因素。"],["楊委員曜：所以你剛剛講的就是你們接下來要怎麼精進及落實這個政策的方法，對不對？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是。"],["楊委員曜：好，可是這就有一個問題，你們在辦理精神病人社會關懷照顧計畫的時候，大概是由公衛護理師，然後社區的關懷員來做面試，以面試方式所建構出來的通報系統，對不對？社區訪視員的人力，我這邊有的資料是全國社區訪視員的人力，我連督導都算進去，包括督導大概就只有600人，這個人力夠嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：592人。"],["楊委員曜：592人，這個人力夠嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是不夠的。"],["楊委員曜：問題就一直停在這裡，長期以來，明明社政這一方面的人力，從照服員、訪視員到社工的人力都很不足，我發現我在這邊質詢這個好像就是一直質詢一個無解的問題啊！你知道我國社區訪視員負擔個案的案件量跟日本相比，日本是1比10，我們呢？目前社區訪視員一個人平均負責訪視的案量大概就有50人，是日本的5倍。我要讓你們說啊，這個怎麼解決？我覺得不應該只是一直在委員會說要增加人力啦！增加人力必須要拿出具體的辦法出來，而且必須要提高誘因啊！"],["邱部長泰源：這也是跟網羅護理師一樣，要從多元化來解決，今天早上我們已經討論那麼久，如果我只是回答說我們再努力，我想也不具體啦！就是我會認為從……剛剛連江縣那個特別的計畫也是一個制度，怎麼樣留……"],["楊委員曜：這個我就提一下，整體的薪資待遇跟社會地位不強化，公費生也沒有用啦！因為離島也有護理系的保送生，都沒有人報考啊！你還是必須要從整體的結構上來使力才有效果啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是，所以怎麼樣讓他的工作環境好，其實社工在我們醫療團隊裡面一直都是非常重要的，像在醫院也一樣……"],["楊委員曜：對，是從……"],["邱部長泰源：醫生做醫生的、護士做護士的……"],["楊委員曜：就從社工……"],["邱部長泰源：什麼不做的幾乎都是社工在做。"],["楊委員曜：從社工到照服員都一樣，就是整個社政系統裡面的……"],["邱部長泰源：而且到社區以後，就更需要很龐大的人力，怎麼樣讓這些人力……因為他們做這個也是很有專業的使命感、尊榮感……"],["楊委員曜：對嘛！所以才說……"],["邱部長泰源：當然還有……"],["楊委員曜：才說國家有多餘稅收的時候不能發現金，應該要用來提高某一些人的薪資待遇，或者是用來補勞健保，這個就是我一直的主張嘛！","我最後花一點時間跟部長討論一下，部長，我在這個委員會第4屆了，我大概討論醫學中心，因為像剛剛陳雪生委員在這邊講的，臺灣的醫療資源分布太不平均了，所以我就是知道醫學中心每增加一家就會把點值稀釋掉一部分，因此在這邊一直要求醫學中心必須要定額，結果你們一次評鑑增加了三家，除了民眾看病的自負額以外，把點值整個也稀釋。執政黨用評鑑送醫院大禮，在野黨就要保障點值多少錢，你們如果再繼續增加，我就支持點值保障，要搞就大家搞到倒啊！不只我講，我現在講的是監察院對你們的糾正，沒有那一種應該要有的既定政策，我就常講，我來自離島，很深刻了解資源分布有多不平均，現在都會區，全國還有14個縣市沒有醫學中心，不是只有南北差距而已，你們真的不要再用評鑑來送大禮，用評鑑來送醫院大禮，我就支持點值保障，1塊不夠，保障1.2。部長，你有要講一下嗎？還是只有要聽我說？"],["邱部長泰源：我只是非常……"],["楊委員曜：我這裡只是跟部長報告，不是只有我講，是只要有關心到這個議題的，現在監察院的糾正出來了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是，這個真的是分級醫療沒有落實，然後偏鄉醫療的困難，種種相當複雜的問題，只是說醫學中心到底是什麼角色，它要不要跟健保不要那麼密切，稍微脫鉤，也許大家就不會說……而且一結合又增加民眾的負擔……"],["楊委員曜：對啊！"],["邱部長泰源：它看的比較多錢嘛！"],["楊委員曜：對啊！"],["邱部長泰源：但是你也很了解，現在就是各縣市也一直要醫學中心嘛！"],["楊委員曜：不是，我現在不是說應該要各縣市都有。"],["邱部長泰源：我知道、我知道，我的意思是……"],["楊委員曜：我是說你們要定額20家的話，就是要有升有降，大家有競爭才有壓力嘛，你們現在不曾降，只是一直在增加。"],["邱部長泰源：對啦，你說有升有降這個部分……"],["楊委員曜：我向來主張有升有降，這也是醫學中心必須要納入評鑑的理由，假如都不用降，我就主張不用評鑑了啊，讓他們浪費那麼多時間幹嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：當然，要評鑑才能維護品質。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我知道這不是在你任內發生的事。"],["邱部長泰源：對，但是我們真的很關心這個問題。"],["楊委員曜：不過以後不能再發生這種事，哪有在用這個當禮物送的。好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員、謝謝部長。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接續我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156443","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca40890fcfeddb5f6e94e570a598ce3c5a9464ce663faeb1c4e2e9c42b40381f6ac9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:53:42 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身上 我剛剛不太確定 沒關係上來說明一下就好"},{"start":111.188,"end":138.026,"text":"各位報告,他這個如果說經過身心障礙鑑定的話,他如果符合資格他是可以在用身心障礙的部分,他是拿進來列管的當然是有列管所謂的身心障礙的這個名額嘛,但我的意思是說列管之後他的管理是什麼?比如說我只是提供一項生活輔助或什麼之類的,或者說他可以請領相關補助,這是大家普遍的了解嘛可是針對特殊個案的這些行為或什麼,他現在有特別的規矩嗎?或者是有特別的規制嗎?"},{"start":139.484,"end":164.782,"text":"生意障礙的部分的話他是用各管的方式也就是說他可以想做相關的福利服務跟現在都還是從福利的角度出發所以現在問題就在這個地方就是說他沒有在沒有特殊行為之前他當然就不屬於要特定的開案列管就規範行為的一個模式嘛對不對那不列管的情況之下所以其實就等於是在行為方面是沒有列管那不列管的情況之下我們是不是只能期待就是說當事人的家庭給予合適的照顧跟支持"},{"start":165.834,"end":190.035,"text":"對不對現行的狀況是不是就是這樣好那這個案子因為他已經變成全國矚目他上了全國新聞剛剛還有影片放出來真的是慘不忍睹對不對那我想了解一下你們現在中央各部會有沒有去了解這個個案的狀況請問這個個案的狀況是他的家庭照護是屬於百密一疏平常很好但是發生這樣的事情還是說平常就疏於照顧等於家庭在支持系統方面是不合格的請問是屬於哪一種你沒有了解嗎"},{"start":192.092,"end":192.112,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":208.192,"end":228.631,"text":"現在大家都做了把被害人做心理輔導這是本來就應該做的事情嘛然後你盡量去撫平他的傷痛這本身就沒有問題了但現在問題就是這樣就是說現在這個加害者這個個案是他家庭是屬於長期失能的狀況還是他其實是正常但就是漏了那個第一個這個事情要先做先做釐清第二個我要講的也結合剛剛很多委員在問的就是說如果因為發生一次這樣的事情"},{"start":229.031,"end":244.557,"text":"然後我們就說全面列管然後又增加社工的工作負擔恐怕不見得從政策的方面能夠有效執行但是但是是不是針對類似的狀況可以做一個檢討那讓先至少讓政府去了解他的家庭狀況我用家庭狀況來區分嘛"},{"start":246.778,"end":275.667,"text":"如果這個人是有身心障礙的不管是智能也好精神也好然後他的家庭是足以支持的那我們應該想辦法鼓勵或加強家庭管理的力道這樣去減低你們社政的負擔如果你經過了盤查跟調查之後發現很多個案的家庭狀況是不OK的他很有可能就是特別的他可能就是隱形的炸彈我雖然這樣講有一點點有一點點無名化的意思但事實發生在這個地方所以我至少希望要求中央政府部委針對這個案子去做一個盤查身心障礙者可能行為"},{"start":276.767,"end":293.011,"text":"你不能等事情發生之後再列管我是覺得就來不及了事前先了解他們的家庭支持狀況你這樣才有辦法大家可以有效的去跟社會做溝通比如說守望相助或什麼也透過把家庭的環節拉進來你才能減低你社工跟相關行政人員的負擔嘛"},{"start":293.351,"end":311.218,"text":"我想這個才是解決這個個案長遠之道那我不希望說今天質詢的時候只是說我對個案還不是很瞭解既然都上了新聞是矚目公安今天都還排了專案報告那就要對個案要有深刻的瞭解啦好不好這是後續處理就針對加害人的這一部分後續的處理希望競速啊跟本席答覆可以嗎"},{"start":312.822,"end":329.259,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這個部分我們希望一個事件就能夠做系統性的一個系統性的就是把家庭拉進來用家庭為單位來做能夠因為這樣改善好不好本期的建議是這樣希望衛福部可以來執行好不好我們會把這個部分的一個報告再給委員好謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1164,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時53分）謝謝主席，有請部長跟社會救助及社工司司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。大家今天都談龜山這件事，因為發生在本席選區，這個非常煎熬。剛剛劉建國委員講得很清楚，像這樣的案例非常特殊，如果說要加強列管等等，它其實某些層面來講可能會造成社工更進一步的負擔。但這事就發生了嘛，這事發生的時候選區的治安是在極度恐慌的狀態，我是很為難啊！我當然不希望是智能障礙或者是精神障礙被污名化，可是它確實造成社區的恐慌，然後當大家都講要把他關起來或什麼的時候，其實本席非常為難，所以我們今天一定要花一點時間討論這件事情。剛剛本席講得非常清楚，這一案的狀況非常特殊，他一開始並不屬於精神障礙對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：他只是中度智能障礙而已，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我想請問以現行的制度，不屬於精神障礙的情況下有沒有開案列管？相關的官員可以做補充。"],["邱部長泰源：好……"],["牛委員煦庭：制度規定上要不要開案列管？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：報告委員，我們全國的精神病人這邊來收案做關懷訪視，不是因為他有沒有領有手冊，而是針對病情比較嚴重的一些診斷或者……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我現在講這個案例，他之所以特別就是因為他一開始不是所謂精神疾病的狀況，他是智能障礙的情況，那智能障礙有沒有列管？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：在精神衛生這邊是沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：是沒有列管。那社政方面有沒有列管？現在的制度是什麼？身障？我剛剛不太確定，沒關係，請上來說明一下。"],["周代理署長道君：跟委員報告，他如果是經過身心障礙鑑定又符合資格，他是可以用身心障礙的部分納進來列管。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然是有列管身心障礙的名額嘛，但我的意思是說，列管之後它的管理是什麼？比如說只是提供生活扶助或什麼之類的，或是可以請領相關補助，這是大家普遍了解，可是針對特殊個案的行為，現在有特別的規矩嗎？或是有特別的規制嗎？"],["周代理署長道君：身心障礙的部分是用個管的方式，也就是說他享受相關的福利服務跟一些輔助。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！現在都還是從福利的角度出發，所以現在問題就在這個地方，就是說他在沒有特殊行為之前，當然就不屬於特定開案列管要去規範行為的一個模式，那不列管的情況之下，其實就等於是在行為方面沒有列管。那不列管的情況之下，我們是不是只能期待當事人的家庭給予合適的照顧跟支持，現行的狀況是不是就是這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個案子因為他已經變成全國矚目，他上了全國新聞，剛剛還有影片放出來，真的是慘不忍睹。我想了解一下，現在中央各部會有沒有去了解這個個案的狀況，請問這個個案的狀況是他的家庭照護屬於百密一疏，平常很好但是發生這樣的事情，還是平常就疏於照顧，等於家庭在支持系統方面是不合格的，請問是屬於哪一種？你們有了解嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：委員其實分析的很好，不曉得我們在這個部分有沒有去了解……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有！現在看起來暫時回答不出來。沒關係，請你用最快的速度，你也跟桃園社會局聯繫一下嘛。"],["張司長秀鴛：是。被害人部分我們有掌握，行為人的部分我們還……"],["牛委員煦庭：現在大家的做法都是讓被害人做心理輔導，這本來就是應該做的事情，你要儘量去撫平他的傷痛，這本身沒有問題。但現在問題就是這個加害者個案，他家庭是屬於長期失能的狀況？還是他其實是正常，但就是漏了那一個……第一個，這件事要先做釐清。","第二個，我要講的也結合剛剛很多委員在問的，如果因為發生一次這樣的事情，然後我們就全面列管又增加社工的工作負擔，恐怕不見得從政策的方面能夠有效執行。但是，是不是可以針對類似的狀況做一個檢討，至少先讓社工師去了解他的家庭狀況？我用家庭狀況來區分，如果這個人是有身心障礙的，不管是智能也好精神也好，只要他的家庭是足以支持的，那我們應該想辦法鼓勵或加強家庭管理力道，這樣也減低你們社政的負擔；但如果你經過盤查跟調查後發現個案的家庭狀況是不OK的，他很有可能就是特別的……可能他就是隱形的炸彈，雖然這樣講有一點點污名化的意思，但事實就發生在這個地方。","所以我要求中央部會至少針對這個案子做一個盤查，去了解身心障礙者可能行為……你不能等事情發生之後再列管，我覺得就來不及了，事先了解他們的家庭支持狀況，這樣才有辦法可以有效的去跟社會做溝通，比如說守望相助或什麼，也透過把家庭的環節拉進來，你才能減低社工跟相關行政人員的負擔，我想這個才是解決這個個案的長遠之道。","我不希望說今天質詢的時候你只是說對個案還不是很了解，既然都上了新聞，就是眾所矚目，今天還排了專案報告，那就要對個案有深刻的了解啦，好不好？這是後續處理，就針對加害人的這一部分，後續的處遇希望儘速給本席答復可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。謝謝委員提醒這個部分，我們希望一個事件就能夠做系統性的一個檢討……"],["牛委員煦庭：系統性的把家庭拉進來……"],["邱部長泰源：然後整個制度能夠因為這樣而改善……"],["牛委員煦庭：用家庭為單位來做，本席的建議是這樣，希望衛福部可以來支持，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把這個部分的報告再給委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員，謝謝部長。","接續請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156442","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156442","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408b45e1feab3b48b00cdd5a1250ef41c284ce663faeb1c4e2e3f1c478c5b52ad615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:50:50 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置沒有做好，就要辭職。中選會能不能認定個別個案的權責機關？我們考你一下，譬如公投綁大選的公投，請問這個權責機關是中選會、行政院，還是立法院？這一題權責機關是誰，能不能告訴我？"],["李主任委員進勇：就法律的主管機關是中選會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法律的機關，所以如果這個提案通過了，沒有做，就中選會下臺？或者2004年強化國防公投，你認為它的權責機關是國防部、行政院，還是總統？"],["李主任委員進勇：都有牽涉到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都牽涉到。所以如果我們要比照剛剛的案子，權責機關首長是誰，搞都搞不清楚。怎麼樣我才滿意？我請你炒一個番茄炒蛋，沒有番茄、沒有蛋，你炒給我，你做得出來嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：做不出來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：做不出來呀，所以你沒有做出我要的番茄炒蛋，你就要辭職。我們來看一下，2008重返聯合國的公投，要申請重返聯合國、加入其他國際組織，如果在3個月內提出，做不到，是誰要下臺？按照他們的版本的話，你覺得是立法院要下臺，還是行政院長要下臺，還是總統要下臺？"],["李主任委員進勇：會混淆。"],["鍾委員佳濱：會混淆。"],["李主任委員進勇：權責會混淆。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們有沒有機制來撤換閣揆？有沒有？"],["李主任委員進勇：那是另外的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，另外一個機制。有沒有機制撤換總統？"],["李主任委員進勇：當然有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，我們可以罷免或彈劾總統，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們也可以對行政院長提出不信任案、倒閣，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果認為行政院長該負責，可不可以發動不信任投票？可以嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果你認為這個是該總統負責的，出來彈劾或罷免總統，可不可以？可以提嘛，會不會過是其次。所以如果對一個重要的政策不滿意，不管政府有沒有做，要究責的對象，針對行政院長有沒有機制？有嘛。針對總統有沒有機制？有嘛，那為什麼沒辦法跟公投綁在一起呢？你覺得為什麼在野黨提出這個說法呢？為什麼要用公投的決定來綁一個首長的去留，你覺得是什麼原因？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個是無法執行的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不只無法執行，是要逃避責任。如果國會多數對閣揆提出倒閣案、不信任案過了，閣揆要不要下臺？不信任案通過了，可以倒閣嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：相對地，國會要不要解散？可能會被解散啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是憲法的機制嘛。又想要閣揆負責下臺，又不想要國會被解散，這是什麼心態？就是只要追究別人的責任，卻逃避自己接受民意的監督嘛。所以說到後來，我們認為今天如果再提出新的公投法，要公投綁大選，這是明明白白違背了3年前全民的民意。如果公投的結果要作成對於總統或行政院長的去留決定，我覺得這樣的提案者是逃避自己的政治責任、迴避民意的監督，你可以接受嗎？你同意嗎？我這樣的說法，你可以接受嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我尊重委員的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","請高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","請陳俊宇委員，請陳俊宇委員，陳俊宇委員不在。","請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-7","speakers":["徐欣瑩","羅智強","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張宏陸","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","吳琪銘","丁學忠","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","翁曉玲","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分\n條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 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能是說我們在努力中在研議中就是在這樣中目標在哪裡"},{"start":204.824,"end":231.24,"text":"我們目前正在落實國外的這個宣傳的部分其實觀光署也相當的努力有拍了幾支不錯的影片那我們目前在國際的通路上面包含BBC、CNN這些媒體上面其實都有幫我們做曝光那另外針對這個社群通路的部分我們也正在努力當中這個部分其實都有落實在做不過以長遠來講的話我們如果希望觀光能夠做起來我認為臺灣的景點也就是亮點"},{"start":231.92,"end":256.434,"text":"台灣觀光的亮點要更多而且必須要讓國外的人看到不要只有靠過去大家所熟悉的那些亮點我們應該要開發新的亮點讓大家更願意來台灣玩那台灣的亮點我們在跟各縣市也有配合說有100個亮點這個部分100個當然對國外的人來講太多了但對國內的國旅來講是有幫助的我們每個縣市都盤點出一些亮點讓國人可以在國旅的部分可以下去"},{"start":257.434,"end":276.87,"text":"很重要希望就是說我們的亮點要讓大家就是來了就印象深刻別人在幫我們推廣這個更好所以但是呢現在目前我們今天大家都在想要太討論的就是說我們的燈會"},{"start":278.872,"end":285.957,"text":"我們燈會也是觀光的一個亮點希望更多人進來但是呢我們的停車位從2016年的2.5萬減少了現在是8000位這樣子的話每年吸引10萬人潮但是呢交通的問題不變這樣的話也會影響大家想要來"},{"start":305.754,"end":317.373,"text":"出門了就是要影響這個部分所以要呼應我們的觀光署就是要怎麼樣讓具體的措施要分流、要封路"},{"start":318.464,"end":347.515,"text":"除了就是要讓大家來參加我們的燈會也不要影響地方的居民的抱怨這雙方的所以希望這個部分的話我們的交通部還有觀光署這邊增加更多的人來觀光不只考量在日本而已所以在台中四處都是越南的觀光來的我們要這樣這個部分我們一定要重視"},{"start":348.795,"end":369.443,"text":"所以要希望我們觀光、觀光署還有我們交通部就是要注重就是人、文、地還有我們的產業、美食還有我們的景色還有我們必須要讓大家想要來的地方這個才是我們重點的理由謝謝好 謝謝委員 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委員好交通部去年底定下了1200萬人次來臺觀光的目標嘛 對不對是然後而且承諾說不管有沒有入客都要達標 對不對"},{"start":27.659,"end":54.208,"text":"這個其實算很有氣魄的一個承諾有沒有入客都要達標可是今年3月就先下修了一次這氣魄就變小了一點下修到一千萬嘛 對不對今年3月的時候然後觀光局的計程車來說一千萬是底線了這個我們還是有氣魄說再修也是底線可是好像不是耶今年到8月來臺旅客請問有多少人"},{"start":55.58,"end":71.314,"text":"今年到八月八月的部分還不到五百對啊到現在是差不多六百二十萬對然後因此看起來一千萬是不可能的事了嘛對不對今年也就快結束啦十一月十二月兩個月都不到對不對"},{"start":72.054,"end":100.245,"text":"所以下修到750萬人次那不是下修目標還是一樣1000萬我當時的詢答的過程當中我的回答是說我們比較務實能夠達到的是750萬那目前看起來數字又更樂觀一點就超過750萬或許有機會達到800萬部長目標沒有變這是我欣賞你的地方目標沒有變只是達不到就這個概念"},{"start":101.167,"end":112.716,"text":"我前線還在努力我不可能跟前線的同仁說那我們今年就不要比當然當然我懂了領導學我懂了領導學我懂了但我只是要說一直在往下修其實也蠻打擊士氣的"},{"start":114.161,"end":131.207,"text":"那如果是照這個750萬那你說可能應該可以到800萬可以到800萬那當然還希望是1000萬剩兩個月我是不知道這個底氣哪裡來這剩下兩個月怎麼拼到1000萬那我想問一下部長一再瞎修原因是什麼那總要原因找出來吧"},{"start":132.317,"end":151.574,"text":"是 但是我們講的原因大家也不一定能夠接受啦對 但是不能接受的原因也至少讓我們知道4月3號的這個地震那造成很多的觀光客認為說臺灣地震相當嚴重再來就是太魯閣確實是臺灣一個相當重要的觀光資源那它的受損對於整體觀光的影響就非常非常大"},{"start":152.094,"end":177.37,"text":"那再來就是匯率的問題因為我們的主要的觀光的來源國就是我們客人來源的比較多的是日本那目前匯率的部分日本人比較不願意出國去玩因為他們的匯率是跌的我們的匯率維持的還比較好一點那所以這種狀況底下日客來的就相對少一些再來就是我們最近確實颱風也蠻多的那整體都有影響不過我覺得還是我們內部自己要檢討我們是不是亮點不足"},{"start":178.03,"end":197.209,"text":"是不是宣傳不夠那這兩個地方我們目前正在檢討跟做修正我覺得基本上因為事實上我們的在我在總統府的時候馬總統把我們的觀光人士衝到一千萬就首次破一千萬是在馬總統任內所以這個目標坦白講得之不易"},{"start":197.91,"end":213.039,"text":"所以我真的希望我們交通部能夠把這個目標挺住但是你說國內有一些因素國外有一些因素當然因素很多但是真的歸納起來還是有一個重點就是說入客的問題也是原因之一"},{"start":214.56,"end":232.759,"text":"另外我有看到說觀光署曾經說要先前說要鎖定印度市場的企業獎勵旅遊來衝高來臺的旅遊人次但疫情前很特別疫情前我們華航有直飛印度的德里那疫情後卻一直都沒有復航"},{"start":234.381,"end":256.728,"text":"政府要推動新南向又訂出這個所謂的要拼印度的人來台灣旅遊可是你的直飛沒拼成我不知道你要怎麼去拼這個印度來台的旅遊呢是 這個民航的航線來講是非常重要的如果要讓旅客來的話這個部分我們正在努力那華航是不是也還在溝通當中是不是請民航局長可以"},{"start":260.703,"end":286.425,"text":"有關印度航線的部分因為它有一個航權的限制嘛那基本上之前是分配給長榮那長榮是由飛夢買那不過後來也是用透過中轉的方式來連接那直飛的部分是德里那這個部分之前是分配給華航那現在我們也在鼓勵業者來申請這條航線那整個恢復的情形大概會看他們機隊的安排我們希望他們可以來及早來恢復這條航線來符合期待"},{"start":288.564,"end":311.199,"text":"因為觀光其實觀光客很強調便利性如果說你今天要轉機的話當然就會降低他們來的那個意願所以因此如果說你在任何地方你要再拓展觀光那路客這條路如果現在有受到障礙的話你要廣開其他的一些國際的旅客的話那有一些交通上的東西我覺得要更便利的去推動那就麻煩交通部再繼續努力是 我們來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1061,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時49分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。交通部去年底訂下1,200萬人次來臺觀光的目標，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["羅委員智強：而且承諾不管有沒有陸客都要達標，對不對？這個其實算很有氣魄的一個承諾，有沒有陸客都要達標，可是今年3月就先下修了一次，氣魄就變小了一點，下修到1,000萬嘛，對不對？今年3月的時候，我記得那時候觀光局還說1,000萬是底線了，你們還是很有氣魄地說，再修也是底線，可是好像不是耶！今年到8月來臺旅客，請問有多少人？"],["周署長永暉：8月的部分，還不到500萬人。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["陳部長世凱：到現在是差不多620萬。"],["羅委員智強：對，因此看起來1,000萬是不可能的事了，對不對？今年也就快結束啦！剩11月、12月，兩個月都不到，對不對？所以又下修到750萬人次。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那不是下修，目標一樣還是1,000萬，我當時詢答的過程當中，我的回答是說我們比較務實能夠達到的是750萬，目前看起來數字又更樂觀一點，就是超過750萬，或許有機會達到800萬。"],["羅委員智強：部長……"],["陳部長世凱：目標沒有變，目標沒有變。"],["羅委員智強：這是我欣賞你的地方，目標沒有變，只是達不到，就這個概念，不是嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：前線還在努力，我不可能跟前線的同仁說：那我們今年就不要……我希望他們繼續努力。"],["羅委員智強：當然、當然，我懂啦！領導學我懂啦！我只是要說一直在往下修，其實也滿打擊士氣的，如果是照750萬，剛剛你說應該可以到800萬，當然還希望是1,000萬，剩兩個月了，我是不知道你這個底氣哪裡來的，剩下兩個月怎麼拚到1,000萬。我想問一下部長，一再下修的原因是什麼？原因總要找出來吧？"],["陳部長世凱：但是我們講的原因，大家也不一定能夠接受啦！觀光署其實有提出一些原因……"],["羅委員智強：對、對！但是不能接受的原因，也至少讓我們知道……"],["陳部長世凱：尤其是4月3號的這個地震，造成很多的觀光客認為臺灣地震相當嚴重；再來，太魯閣確實是臺灣一個相當重要的觀光資源，它的受損對於整體觀光的影響就非常、非常大。"],["羅委員智強：對！"],["陳部長世凱：再來就是匯率的問題，因為我們主要的觀光來源國，就是我們客人來源比較多的是日本，目前匯率的部分，日本人比較不願意出國去玩，因為他們的匯率是跌的，我們匯率維持得還比較好一點，所以在這種狀況底下，日客來得就相對少一些；再來，我們最近確實颱風也滿多的，整體都有影響。不過，我覺得我們內部還是自己要檢討，我們是不是亮點不足、是不是宣傳不夠，對這兩個部分，我們目前正在檢討跟修正。"],["羅委員智強：對，事實上我在總統府的時候，那時候馬總統把我們的觀光人次衝到1,000萬，首次破1,000萬是在馬總統任內，坦白講，這個目標得之不易，所以我真的希望交通部能夠把這個目標挺住。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，我們朝這個目標努力。"],["羅委員智強：你說國內有一些因素、國外有些因素，當然因素很多，但是真的歸納起來，還是有一個重點，陸客的問題也是原因之一，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：這個是原因之一，沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：另外，我也有看到觀光署先前說要鎖定印度市場的企業獎勵旅遊，來衝高來臺的旅遊人次，但在疫情前很特別，我們華航有直飛印度的德里，疫情後卻一直都沒有復航，政府要推動新南向，又訂出所謂的要拚印度人來臺灣旅遊，可是你的直飛沒拚成，我不知道你要怎麼去拚印度來臺的旅遊呢？"],["陳部長世凱：是，以民航的航線來講，是非常重要的，如果要讓旅客來的話，這個部分我們正在努力，華航是不是也還在溝通當中，是不是請民航局長可以回答？"],["何局長淑萍：有關印度航線的部分，因為它有一個航權的限制，基本上之前是分配給長榮，長榮是有飛孟買，不過後來也是透過中轉的方式來連接；直飛的部分是德里，這個部分之前是分配給華航，現在我們也在鼓勵業者來申請這條航線。整個恢復的情形大概會看他們機隊的安排，我們希望他們可以及早恢復這條航線，來符合期待。"],["羅委員智強：因為其實觀光客很強調便利性，如果你今天要轉機的話，當然就會降低他們來的意願，因此，如果對任何地方，你要再拓展觀光，當然陸客這一條路，現在如果有受到障礙的話，你要廣開其他的一些國際旅客，有些交通上的東西，我覺得要更便利地去推動，就麻煩交通部再繼續努力。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","再來有請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1024,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時42分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。今天你的報告特別提到，惟4月起受天災、地緣政治、主力客源國的一些因素，所以影響了來臺觀光的人次，4月起是不是指0403地震？"],["陳部長世凱：0403的地震對臺灣的觀光衝擊非常大。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是只有花蓮嗎？還是包含其他地方？"],["陳部長世凱：當然花蓮是一個指標的觀光地區，所以太魯閣受損之後，其實國際相當關注，國際上其實以為整體臺灣地震都很嚴重，因為他們看到的新聞是太魯閣，也就是他們所熟悉的那個地方，他們就以為整個臺灣都很嚴重，所以影響觀光非常嚴重。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你也提到地緣政治，地緣政治就臺灣而言，一直以來，從8年來甚至9年來就是這樣的狀況，為什麼這次會不一樣？"],["陳部長世凱：在地震之後，在5月份有一次……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我講的是地緣政治。"],["陳部長世凱：對，地震是4月，5月份的時候對岸其實有一個滿大型的軍演，所以那個時候確實國際上很多人很關注。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分請部長有機會跟賴總統提的時候，一定要特別提到兩岸和平最重要。我們看從100年到112年甚至到今年，我們曾經都有1,000萬觀光人數，甚至是1,100、1,300萬，你看今年都在一半以下，所以各項需要檢討的部分都必須要去做，就如同剛才你的報告裡面所提的，要一併去評估，尤其是政治因素怎麼樣能夠減少，這個是最重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有關「加速擴大團客──花蓮加碼」部分，也要謝謝交通部觀光署，但是這個方案怎麼樣繼續或加強，是需要繼續努力的地方。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們繼續做。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有關「落實花東振興方案」部分，雖然你們也做了延長，現在延長到11月30日，但是在延長的部分，又發生了康芮颱風，所以這個部分你們要不要再考慮延長？"],["陳部長世凱：我們已經有延長到12月20日，我們有3.0plus的措施。"],["鄭天財Sra 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白委員是不是我們請針對這個問題跟你報告一下謝謝委員關切我們新衛社工的工作負擔那我的確沒有錯委員這邊提呃這個呈現出來是我們新衛社工的人數是291人是在112年的時候那這個服務呢是指我去仿試的次數不是仿試的人數仿試的次數對因為每一個人可能會仿好幾次所以他不是人數是次數"},{"start":226.551,"end":227.792,"text":"所以因為這樣區分起來壓力就不一樣了壓力就落差很大"},{"start":232.478,"end":256.389,"text":"是這樣嗎?你要打呼我是這樣嗎?你現在是要緩博我嗎?是不是?不是。不然你這個想法我聽起來就有點怪怪的啊。這邊是。他的人次就是2169,216嘛對不對?21萬多嘛對不對?216349,你講,沒關係你再講一次。這個是服務量。我們提供了這麼多訪視的次數。那就更糟糕了。你這些人要做這麼多的事情。"},{"start":258.753,"end":278.174,"text":"跟委員報告如果是以這個個案的負擔的那個案量比來講的話我們一個新衛社工在去年平均下來大概是1比28也就是說我一個新衛社工我大概服務28個這個合併有保護案件的這個精神病人所以你現在答問我是說1比28是合理的一個比例"},{"start":282.096,"end":309.248,"text":"這個離我們的目標還是要再加油因為我們希望說我們希望能夠把這個比例降到1比25左右1比25喔對你這麼講好像好像不是這麼嚴重的感覺齁1比28是現狀那你們要加油到可以調可以來調到1比25所以應該這些心理社公司基本上壓力都沒有這麼大是這樣嗎這個都有現場轉播的喔"},{"start":310.669,"end":314.931,"text":"你先講合理的負擔的比例是多少你要達成的目標明年要達成目標1比25這是另外一件事情正常的情況之下參照先進的國家"},{"start":336.002,"end":359.682,"text":"這個心理施工師應該要比例是多少?一比多少?是正常的?我們有參考國外的資料一比二十的是比較常見所以我們現在就是說當然我們目前國內的人力還是相對不足但是也沒有辦法一步到位所以我們是逐年的來禁用我們心衛社工的人力"},{"start":361.484,"end":371.716,"text":"對,所以1比28到1比20你明年要到1比25對不對那你什麼時候可以到1比20才是一個參考國外的這樣的一個經驗是比較合理的"},{"start":375.879,"end":405.879,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":407.14,"end":409.463,"text":"社安網二期計畫是到明年底結束,所以新的一期會在1、15年開始?"},{"start":428.772,"end":452.574,"text":"所以現在,所以我們1月5年就可以達到1比20,是不是這樣?明年是1比25嗎?希望,希望我們會努力,因為這個人員的禁用,不是說我們要...可是妳是行政機關,妳不能跟我講做希望,妳跟我講希望我就覺得沒有希望了。因為我們不可能說要,就是說我們要禁用的人數,然後為地方政府馬上就可以禁用到,他們還是有實務的這個禁用的一個期程,所以不可能說我們一下子補..."},{"start":455.215,"end":482.134,"text":"我讓部長知道有這個事情啦好不好我覺得我們一定努力因為部長你現在是社公司的社公司的大家長你現在身份嘛對不對跟以前不一樣我要講你們講說有機會才有機會這個寫的這個報導出來的嘛有機會好好去處理每一個個案的狀況是要降到1比20嘛那等於緩資嘛對不對現在跟明年"},{"start":483.399,"end":487.041,"text":"甚至於未來的後年115年都沒有機會好好去處理每一個個案。我這樣講你應該沒有辦法反駁我吧?"},{"start":496.089,"end":496.609,"text":"我可以這麼講嗎?對不對?"},{"start":519.747,"end":544.906,"text":"一下子剛剛市長這邊報告一下子要達到這個目標恐怕的確困難那的確這是事實好好如果要降到1.2才能好好去處理這是每一個個案這也是我們工作同仁的因為我們強化這個社會安全網明年明年是到第二期有各種管道來幫助這些個案讓我們的某一個譬如說心理社會這一個"},{"start":546.187,"end":573.399,"text":"負擔不要那麼重,多元化大家互相來支持。現在都是講這個團隊作戰的啦。沒有啦,柏中,我時間在管的啦。我告訴你,因為我講好好的處理每一個個案,我現在講兩件好好的沒有辦法處理每一個個案。第一個,就突然發生這個事件嘛。就傳出生產者在這邊的社工直接詢問受害者家屬要不要去和解啦。其實做法上是非常粗糙嘛,引起社會嘩然,但是我不忍苛責。"},{"start":575.09,"end":591.055,"text":"社區精神病患照護優化 被起訴過失致死,業務登載不實。其中過失致死的理由,社區精神病患照護優化 被起訴過失致死,業務登載不實。社區精神病患照護優化 被起訴過失致死,業務登載不實。社區精神病患照護優化 被起訴過失致死,業務登載不實。社區精神病患照護優化 被起訴過失致死,業務登載不實。社區精神病患照護優化 被起訴過失致死,業務登載不實。社區精神病患照護優化 被起訴過失致死,業務登載不實。社區精"},{"start":600.848,"end":610.312,"text":"那這個社工未能因應或用即時來因應受傷狀況增加訪視頻率或進行不定期的訪視以發掘這個虐待情勢故認為這個社工社工社患過失致死罪這個是多麼沉重的指控我不曉得你現在是社工社大家長你的感受是什麼你看喔"},{"start":628.351,"end":654.465,"text":"當這個社工被靠上所靠的那一剎那我相信衛生部很多同仁應該心有戚戚焉吧怎麼會這樣我再講一個數據 2020年有兩成的社工在執行業務時遭受人身的危害每五名就有一個社工遭受安全危害每三天就有一位社工受到這個威脅"},{"start":657.288,"end":680.318,"text":"這個時候這個數據都沒有應該不誇張嘛對不對反正就是社區精神病患照護優化這缺點是長期以來這個問題那我們當然希望換了新的部長就有不一樣針對這個部分有更積極的應應作為嘛但是這樣的數據你必須要去盤整起來部長非常的清楚去掌握嘛然後北市喔臺北市社會局統計去年113年社工總人數是563人但是就有94人離職"},{"start":684.127,"end":706.781,"text":"李子麗有20% 19.3%左右然後這是太多了替問我的地方就對了連新北市都有36個人離職持續這樣下去我們不只有人才斷層也有經驗的斷層這會接不上來這會出大問題所以你們要降到1比5你還是有辦法招到那些人"},{"start":707.759,"end":723.677,"text":"阿姨有辦法要做下去,不然你的1比25,我怕都很難達成,不要講到1比20。我今天要這樣垂詢你們的意思,因為時間有限,但是大致上就講了幾個重點,也給部長能夠理解。"},{"start":724.638,"end":746.283,"text":"我這邊最後一個具體的建議其實我們在這個有對這個連江縣社會工作人力培訓期獎勵計畫是109年到115年這個離老人力當然離老的社工人力當然會比這個本島更難培養但是如果透過公會的方式為離老來培養這個社工人力我覺得"},{"start":747.216,"end":767.148,"text":"我覺得有某種程度的效益存在那今年首屆的國衛生有3人在6月畢業之後7月會返鄉來到這個連江縣託入服務這個計畫已經執行4年的啦要不要去擴大嘛該不該擴大有沒有原理擴大你的2.0裡面有沒有含帶這一項"},{"start":769.656,"end":788.875,"text":"我想這個是有意義的一個工作啦齁那就是看需求需求面方面我們來規劃嘛不曉得社會福利部有沒有規劃是跟委員報告齁就是這一次今年我到連江去看這些學生跟縣府交換意見那他們縣府也提出就是說"},{"start":789.535,"end":813.416,"text":"在這一期結束後他們會再評估提出第二期再繼續讓中央來支持所以因此我們在等他的報告來之後我們會再報給行政委員來做這個就是林江縣他提出了嘛全國要不要一體適用嘛你的能力才有辦法短期內去補足嘛你的1比25才有辦法達標嘛為了1比20才有機會有辦法去實現嘛就這樣而已嘛"},{"start":814.468,"end":829.797,"text":"一個月給我們報告跟政府溝通一下好不好?部長可以嗎?好,謝謝!謝謝!謝謝劉委員!不過我的社工師我建議你們在聚會的時候還是說在做年度的時候請外商科的醫師來幫你們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1087,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時39分）謝謝主席，也謝謝召委今天排這個有關社區思覺失調症病患的照護，我覺得我們應該用這樣的名稱比較正確，提醒一下主席。來！有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好、部長辛苦了！不到百廢待舉，不過事情真的很多，今天召委排這個思覺失調症病患的照護優化，確實也是非常重要的一件事情……"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["劉委員建國：我想到立院還是要面對所有事實，有些數據可能我們要小心，也不要去美化。部長可以看這個資料，很清楚，就是在強化社會安全網第二期計畫中，分年補助地方政府布建社區心理衛生中心及充實心衛中心人力。至113年10月底，就是今年10月底，全國社區心理衛生中心已累計52處，每一縣市均已至少設有1處，預計114年將布建到71處；另外補助進用心理師、職能治療師、護理師、心理輔導員、心理衛生社工及關懷訪視員等心理衛生人力，110年計有594位，到113年10月已經增加到1,450位，然後到114年將增加到2,489位。總共有6個類別的專業人士，在這個報告裡，你把他們全部混在一塊，我不曉得這是什麼意思，然後我們也很難去精算，到底心理輔導員要增進多少，心理衛生社工師要增加多少，我們看不出來，但是如果我以明年來平均，每一個職業別基本上會增加到414人，對不對？他們要來照顧全國的心理衛生問題，這樣夠不夠？以以往的件數來看每一個人能承擔、負擔的量，即便已經增加到這樣了，夠不夠？因為你寫這樣，我只能籠統的跟你請教，因為我不曉得職能治療師要負責多少、護理師要負責多少，然後心理輔導員負責多少，對不對？","再給部長看第二個資料，一樣是在強化社會安全網第二期計畫裡面，112年衛福部直接補助地方政府進用心理衛生社工（含督導）291人，提供精神疾病與自殺防治合併多重議題個案的服務人次來到了21萬6,349人次。簡單講，平均一個社工要處理743人次，這樣承受得起來嗎？這承受得起來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，是不是請司長來報告？"],["劉委員建國：來！針對這個問題。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：謝謝委員關切我們心衛社工的工作負擔，的確沒有錯，委員這邊呈現出來我們心衛社工的人數在112年的時候是291人，這個服務是指我去訪視的次數，不是訪視的人數，所以因為每一個……"],["劉委員建國：訪視的次數？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：對，因為每一個人可能會訪好幾次，所以它不是人數是次數，對，就是說我們兩百……"],["劉委員建國：所以因為這樣區分起來壓力就不一樣了，壓力就落差很大，是這樣嗎？你要答復我是這樣嗎？你現在是要反駁我嘛！是不是？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：不是。"],["劉委員建國：不然你這個想法我聽起來就有點怪怪的。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：這邊是……"],["劉委員建國：它的人次就二十一萬多嘛！對不對？216,349，沒關係你再講一次。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：這個是服務量，我們提供了這麼多訪視的次數。"],["劉委員建國：那就更糟糕了，你這些人要做這麼多的事情。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告，如果是以個案的負擔案量比來講的話，我們一個心衛社工在去年平均下來大概是1比28，也就是說一個心衛社工大概服務28個合併有保護案件的精神病人。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！所以你現在答復我是說1比28是合理的一個比例？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：這個離我們的目標還是要再加油，因為我們希望說……"],["劉委員建國：好，要怎麼加油？要加油到什麼程度？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：我們希望能夠把這個比例降到1比25左右。"],["劉委員建國：1比25喔？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：對。"],["劉委員建國：你這麼講好像不是這麼嚴重的感覺，1比28是現狀，那你們要加油到可以調到1比25，所以應該這些心理社工師基本上壓力都沒有這麼大，是這樣嗎？其實這個都有現場轉播的，你小心答復。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：其實不是這個意思，因為我們是希望說……"],["劉委員建國：聽你答復就是這個意思啊！"],["鄭代理司長淑心：每一個社工要有一個合理的負擔案量……"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！"],["鄭代理司長淑心：目前我們是把目標設在明年要達到……"],["劉委員建國：不，你先講合理的負擔比例是多少，你明年要達成的目標1比25，這是另外一件事情，正常的情況之下，參照先進的國家，心理社工師應該要的比例是多少，1比多少是正常的？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：我們有參考國外的資料，1比20的是比較常見，所以我們現在……"],["劉委員建國：你講出真話。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：所以我們現在就是說……當然我們目前國內的人力還是相對不足，但是也沒有辦法一步到位，所以我們是逐年地來進用心衛社工的人力。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以1比25到1比20，你明年要到1比25對不對？那你什麼時候可以到1比20，才是一個參考國外經驗比較合理的，這個期程到什麼時候？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：謝謝委員關切，因為我們社安網是到114年會結束這一期，我們現在已經在研議2.0了，所以說有關於委員建議的這個，到底怎麼樣才是一個合理的案量，我們會把它放進來做研議。"],["劉委員建國：我沒有建議你，是你參考國外的比例嘛！對不對？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是。"],["劉委員建國：你覺得這比較合理，沒有錯吧？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：我們會逐步地來檢討，然後……"],["劉委員建國：不，我是請教你有沒有覺得國外的是值得你們參考的嗎？這樣的比例……"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是可以參考的。"],["劉委員建國：對，是可以參考，你們要多久可以達到這樣的比例？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：我們會把它放進2.0來做一併的檢討。"],["劉委員建國：你的2.0什麼時候可以研擬完成？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：115年開始，社安網二期計畫是到明年底結束……"],["劉委員建國：對啦！明年底。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：新的一期會在115年開始。"],["劉委員建國：所以我們115年就可以達到1比20，是不是這樣？明年是1比25嘛！"],["鄭代理司長淑心：希望，我們會努力，因為人員的進用不是說我們要……"],["劉委員建國：你是行政機關，你不能跟我講希望……"],["鄭代理司長淑心：因為我們不可能說要……"],["劉委員建國：你跟我講希望我就覺得沒有希望了。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：就是說我們要進用的人數，然後地方政府馬上就可以進用到，他們還是有實務的進用期程，所以不可能說我們一下子補人力下去就可以進用到……"],["劉委員建國：好啦！我讓部長知道有這個事情，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，了解、了解，我們一定努力。"],["劉委員建國：對，因為部長你現在是社工師的大家長，你現在的身分跟以前不一樣，我要講，你們講說有機會、才有機會，這個報導出來的，有機會好好去處理每一個個案的狀況是要降到1比20，那等於反之嘛！對不對？現在跟明年，甚至於未來的後年（115年）都沒有機會好好去處理每一個個案，我這樣講，你應該沒有辦法反駁我吧！對不對？如果照1比28、明年的1比25，到了後年年1比20的人力還沒有補充到位，那基本上就沒有辦法好好地處理每一個個案，那這樣的事件就會層出不窮，那你們的強化社會安全網第二期計畫等於就是白搭啦！我可以這麼講嘛！對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想剛剛司長這邊報告，一下子要達到這個目標恐怕的確困難……"],["劉委員建國：部長……"],["邱部長泰源：這是事實，如果要降到1比20才能好好去處理每一個個案，這也是我們工作同仁的……"],["劉委員建國：因為我們強化社會安全網明年是到第二期……"],["邱部長泰源：所以是不是有各種管道來幫助這些個案，讓我們的某一個，譬如說心理社工的負擔不要那麼重，多元化、大家互相來支持，現在都是講團隊作戰的啦！"],["劉委員建國：沒有啦！部長，我時間的關係，我跟你說，因為我講要好好地處理每一個個案，但我現在講兩件沒有辦法好好地處理的個案，第一個就桃園發生的事件，就傳出身障者……這邊的社工直接詢問受害者家屬要不要去和解，其實作法上是非常粗糙，引起社會嘩然，但是我不忍苛責；然後第二個剴剴案也是這樣，這個社工被起訴過失致死，業務登載不實，其中過失致死的理由，部長應該還記憶猶新吧！這個社工都有親自到現場去訪視，但未能及時發覺到這一個保母所羅織的謊言，不只如此，也未能辨識這個傷勢係受虐所致，進而去做兒虐的通報，這個社工未能及時因應受傷的狀況增加訪視頻率或進行不定期的訪視以發覺虐待情勢，故認為這個社工涉犯過失致死罪，這個是多麼沉重的指控。你現在是社工師的大家長，我不曉得你的感受是什麼？你看，當這個社工被銬上手銬的那一剎那，我相信衛福部很多同仁應該心有戚戚焉吧！怎麼會這樣？","我再講一個數據，召委再讓我講一下，不好意思。2020年有兩成的社工在執行業務時遭受人身的危害，每5名就有一個社工遭受安全危害，每3天就有一位社工受到威脅，這個數據應該不誇張嘛！對不對？反正社工師缺人是長期以來的問題，那我們當然希望換了新的部長就有不一樣，針對這個部分有更積極的因應作為，但是這樣的數據你必須要去盤整起來，部長非常清楚去掌握嘛！然後臺北市社會局統計，去年112年社工總人數是563人，但是就有94人離職，離職率20%，19.3%左右，這是首都耶！鐵飯碗的地方就對了，連新北市都有36個人離職，持續這樣下去，我們不只有人才斷層，也有經驗的斷層，這會接不上來，這會出大問題！所以你們要降到1比25，你還是要有辦法招到那些人，也有辦法要做下去，不然你的1比25我怕都很難達成，不要講到1比20。我今天要這樣垂詢你們的意思就是如此，因為時間有限，但是大致上就講了幾個重點，也給部長能夠理解。","我這邊最後一個具體的建議，其實我們有一個「連江縣社會工作人力培育獎勵計畫」是109年到115年，當然離島的社工人力會比本島更難培養，但是如果透過公費的方式為離島來培養社工人力，我覺得有某種程度的效益存在，今年首屆的公費生有3人，在6月畢業之後，7月會返鄉來到連江縣投入服務，這個計畫已經執行4年了，要不要去擴大？該不該擴大？有沒有研擬擴大？你的2.0裡面有沒有涵蓋這一項？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個是有意義的工作，就是看需求，需求面方面我們來規劃，不曉得社工司有沒有規劃？"],["蘇司長昭如：是，跟委員報告，今年我到連江去看這些學生、跟縣府交換意見，他們縣府也提出在這一期結束後，他們會再評估提出第二期，再繼續讓中央來支持，因此等他們報告來之後，我們會再報給行政院做核定。"],["劉委員建國：好，這個就是連江縣提出了嘛！全國要不要一體適用？你的人力才有辦法短期內去補足，你的1：25才有辦法達標，未來的1：20才有機會、有辦法去實現，就這樣而已嘛！在一個月內給我們報告，去跟教育部溝通一下好不好，部長可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝劉委員。","不過蘇司長我對社工師有個建議，你們在聚會的時候還是在做年度的時候，要請外傷科的醫師來幫你們上課，因為針對一些外觀，它可以判斷這是暴力的還自摔的，這一塊要去補強，我覺得他們這一塊的能力還是不足。部長，這個我有去參加過所以我知道，好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接續請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156437","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156437","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408065996dd76460717cdd5a1250ef41c283f5630ed0db254576e20a296e7f2f0315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:39:07 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18人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文"},{"start":141.215,"end":145.699,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":169.497,"end":182.906,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":192.81,"end":198.012,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":212.95,"end":223.613,"text":"跟投票率六成哪一個比這樣能夠展現民意基礎?請教主委你來自民意的洗禮投票率四成跟投票率六成的結果是要跟議題的設定有很緊密的關係"},{"start":231.775,"end":250.489,"text":"有關於投票率影響到公投的結果,這一點我個人是比較無法理解。其實對公投的一個投票跟對選舉的投票意思大家都一樣一樣。我今天出來選舉,選不到的人就在說投票率太低了,所以我選不到,這個是不能夠得到支持的。"},{"start":251.445,"end":271.479,"text":"主委你這個羅智你來自司法界你來自民意代表洗禮你現在擔任我們中選會的主委你這麼說我再給你一個數字2021年12月18四大公投的投票投票率只有4乘1只有4乘12022年的時候11月26日18歲的公民權的這個附決那麼投票率59%將近6成"},{"start":279.802,"end":281.336,"text":"所有的縣市首長"},{"start":283.56,"end":311.425,"text":"選舉幾乎平均值不管是直小是線小是平均值六成以上所以本席再一次的請教投票率四成跟投票率六成哪一個可以展現民意的基礎在我的看法不管是四成五成六成它是否成案是否通過都是根據法律的規定它的效果在我中選會看起來都是一樣的"},{"start":315.593,"end":327.372,"text":"我們今天在討論這個議案我們也會提出修法我們希望讓全民一起來參與真正的展現民意的基礎真正的展現民意基礎內政部"},{"start":328.677,"end":338.58,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三"},{"start":354.244,"end":383.486,"text":"今天你是中選委的主委,如果你說我們可以好好的來討論,讓更多的民意基礎更堅固,這才是一個民主堅固法。我們現在就是在討論啊。我們現在就在討論啊。所以我再一次請問,第三次請問,四成的投票跟六成的投票率,哪一個可以展現民意?在我的看法都是一樣的,按照法律的規定來定他的結果跟他的效力。"},{"start":386.536,"end":394.766,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":404.98,"end":415.504,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":431.972,"end":432.833,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"},{"start":451.046,"end":473.817,"text":"這個四個字沒有人有辦法接受你在整個的過程當中你要怎麼樣去動作你要怎麼樣去制度這是人民要的不能因為選務紛亂而導致你要走回頭路我往前走啊現在是要回去綁在一起是走回頭路啊你再說一次你再說一次你再說一次說公國綁大選這兩個是走回頭路你再說一次是走回頭路吳姐"},{"start":480.578,"end":493.761,"text":"三、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員吳秉叡"},{"start":510.836,"end":513.146,"text":"最新通過法律案 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Pass你知道嗎日本的觀光客有多少比例用新幹線或者說在日本搭乘新幹線的乘客當中外國觀光客佔多少有沒有概念日本的我不曉得來周署長你們有沒有去過比較"},{"start":57.52,"end":75.328,"text":"台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署署署長、外交部國家公園署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署長、外交部國家公園署署"},{"start":77.782,"end":98.629,"text":"還是你們的高鐵的乘客當中有多少是外國觀光客有沒有做過統計高鐵目前銷售的話我們的外國觀光客48萬人次好往下看你不是問你多少比例告訴你日本2023年的日本觀光客超過2500萬5兆的日元消費大概大成新幹線的日本觀光客佔他們總體新幹線的用量的兩成"},{"start":100.046,"end":126.057,"text":"那在我們疫情前大家高鐵的旅客當中外國的旅客只佔3.5%部長你看了有什麼感覺是當然比例上來看我們是比較低啦為什麼因為日本對國外的旅客來講可能使用台灣的這個高鐵的票可能沒有那麼方便或者是沒有那麼容易很多種可能我要說的是說因為當觀光客到日本搭新幹線非常划算"},{"start":126.957,"end":153.5,"text":"所以我們去日本觀光很喜歡自由行往下看但是我今天要問的是另外一個問題高鐵的運量從2007年1555萬的人次到去年是7308萬我們的搭車的人數啊我們搭乘的人數一直在成長最近這10年你看一下我們的運能人數在成長了50%以上可是發車的班次只有增加10%你知道這意味著什麼嗎"},{"start":155.131,"end":182.097,"text":"班次增加的少可是人載的人增加很多是表示每一班車都載更多的人都要到什麼程度你知道嗎請看下一張高鐵的營運過後趕不上去的成長啊34組列車每組12個車廂可以提供將近1000個座位去年以來從班次從1016班增加到1060班成長的多車班成長的少所以旅客就要坐在廁所外面了"},{"start":182.95,"end":197.303,"text":"那請問要怎麼解決這個問題 有沒有辦法再增加更多的班次 可不可以必須要增加列車組才有辦法再增加更多是的 要增加列車組才能增加班次嘛 對不對請問你這12組的列車是太舊換新 還是34加12 以後有46組在服務應該是34加12那這34的舊的有沒有要太舊換新時間還沒到時間還沒到 什麼時候會到"},{"start":210.131,"end":230.946,"text":"來往下看35年嘛可以使用35年所以我希望你們呢好好的高鐵啊去要求他一下新採購的列出是什麼算出來的你這12組怎麼算出來的是按照我們的運量的需求成長算出來的嗎我先問一下有沒有聽過路線容量跟利用率台鐵該不會告訴我台鐵的路線容量跟利用率是多少說得出來吧杜總長有沒有"},{"start":234.033,"end":252.97,"text":"什麼是路線容量你解釋給大家聽是我們各路線的路線容量跟利用率不太一樣不過平均起來我們現在的路線容量有到達85%以上那利用率呢利用率大概超過6成7好你能告訴大家什麼是路線容量跟利用率嗎"},{"start":253.989,"end":281.681,"text":"呃 可以啊你請簡短的說路線容量就是我們在每一個路段我們所能開行的這個列次對那利用率就是用它多少利用率就是就是這個這些班次上面客人搭乘的一個情形高鐵有沒有高鐵能不能告訴大家你的路線容量是多少你的利用率多少說得出來嗎我們現在的承載率我們分平日跟假日沒有我是問你路線容量跟利用率你有沒有告訴我台鐵說得出來你說得出來嗎"},{"start":283.069,"end":301.031,"text":"你說不出來嘛 因為我公文去要 看下一張啊我去鐵道局要啊 要不到啊如果一個軌道的運輸業者搞不清楚自己的路線容量搞不清楚自己的利用率你告訴我現在可以跑30組列車你告訴我未來可以跑46組列車基礎在哪裡 部長知道原因了喔再看下一頁"},{"start":302.506,"end":315.53,"text":"今天我們要談臺灣的高鐵各站的停站量停站班次對不對你看到了沒有我們大概都60、61是不是這樣子這六都嘛你覺得台南46會不會太多還是太少不曉得那你覺得屏東多少才恰當停車班次跟彰化雲林一樣多好不好可不可以"},{"start":328.598,"end":339.811,"text":"我屏東也不敢太大野心我不敢要求要跟左營一樣60班次啦你要是給我跟彰化和雲林有17個班次就夠了請問如果要滿足屏東的需求你要多採購幾輛列車"},{"start":343.391,"end":361.94,"text":"這就是問題我們都一直以為屏東設站在考慮路線其實你要考慮到屏東縣州縣長說得好你的路線A案B案他說不管能夠趕快訂案就是好案按照運量來決定你停靠的次一個班次容量我們往下看有沒有聽過驗鈔方案驗鈔方案跟其他的左營案跟高雄案最大不同是什麼"},{"start":367.433,"end":393.471,"text":"縣巢方案到了縣巢往兩邊岔會去高雄左營的就不會來屏東會到屏東的就不會來高雄左營那表示什麼表示如果你是走高雄段或新左營岸或高雄岸高雄有60班屏東就有60班需要嗎屏東只要17、18班就可以了所以縣巢案的優點在哪裡你只要考慮屏東需要的運能運量同不同意"},{"start":396.24,"end":417.653,"text":"了解了沒有部長了解了沒有我最後要結束了因為主席站起來了因為他那個有主橋要改變有工程上面的問題我是說路線的部分要考慮到你未來的人客乘客的市場規模我們屏東不是南港會到台北的都會到南港但是不需要會到左營的都會來屏東"},{"start":418.593,"end":446.986,"text":"只要能夠服務就好往下看最後一個你知道臺北的那個日本的新幹線從1960年代到2020年代60年代間他們的車廂的列車的進化是這樣子的他的路線從開開始500公里到現在3000公里所以拜託部長高鐵要永續發展請看下一張我們要從軌道的長度跟車廂的進化列車的進化同步考量所以三個結論燕超案本來就有請交通部回顧可以嗎"},{"start":448.487,"end":472.659,"text":"路線規劃除了考慮工程之外要考慮營運可以嗎可以所以臺鐵跟臺灣永不有同步永續發展這是唯一的考量最後的這幾個問題你倒回去為了你們新站點的設置計劃為了你們採購列車的太舊歡欣的騎乘規劃為了你們攀勢成長的調度計劃以及你們延伸軌道服務的區域計劃還有後勤人力的招募計劃可不可以上去那裡給個答案可以可以可以委員沒問題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時34分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請交通部陳部長，還有觀光署周署長以及鐵道局的楊局長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外請臺鐵的杜董事長和高鐵的顏資深副總在旁邊協助。部長好、署長好、局長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我請教你一下，你有沒有去過日本？"],["陳部長世凱：去過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你去日本是當觀光客，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是，當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你會不會去搭他的新幹線？"],["陳部長世凱：會，搭過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我當觀光客每次去日本，我一定買他的JR Pass。你知道嗎？日本的觀光客有多少比例用新幹線，或者在日本搭乘新幹線的乘客當中，外國觀光客占多少？有沒有概念？"],["陳部長世凱：日本的我不曉得。"],["鍾委員佳濱：周署長，你們有沒有比較過？"],["周署長永暉：他的JR Pass裡面占的比例很高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很高？"],["周署長永暉：不僅如此，他還有三大系統，除了JR系統之外，還有大私鐵系統、軌道系統。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問一下台灣高鐵顏資深副總，請問一下，你知道外國來臺灣的觀光客有多少使用高鐵嗎？還是高鐵的乘客當中，有多少是外國觀光客？有沒有做過統計？"],["顏資深副總經理昭立：高鐵目前外國觀光客的銷售量是48萬人次。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你多少比例？告訴你，日本2023年觀光客超過2,500萬人次，創造5兆日圓的消費，搭乘新幹線的觀光客占日本總體新幹線用量的兩成。那在疫情前搭高鐵的旅客當中，外國旅客只占3.5%。部長，你看了什麼感覺？為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：當然從比例上來看，我們是比較低。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼？因為日本……"],["陳部長世凱：對國外的旅客來講，使用台灣高鐵的票可能沒有那麼方便，或者是沒有那麼容易。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有很多種可能，我要說的是，因為當觀光客到日本搭新幹線非常划算，所以我們去日本觀光很喜歡自由行。但我今天要問的是另外一個問題，高鐵的運量從2007年1,555萬人次，到去年是7,308萬，搭乘的人數一直在成長，你看一下，最近這10年運能人數成長50%以上，可是發車的班次只有增加10%，你知道這意味著什麼嗎？班次增加的少，可是載的人增加很多，是不是表示每一班車都載更多的人？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多到什麼程度，你知道嗎？高鐵的營運規劃趕不上需求的成長，34組列車、每組12個車廂，可以提供將近1,000個座位，去年以來班次從1,016班增加到1,060班，人次成長得多，車班成長得少，所以旅客就要坐在廁所外面，請問要怎麼解決這個問題？有沒有辦法再增加更多的班次？可不可以？"],["陳部長世凱：必須要增加列車組，才有辦法再增加更多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要增加列車組，才能增加班次，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問這12組列車是汰舊換新，還是34加12，以後有46組在服務？"],["陳部長世凱：應該是34加12。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這34組舊的有沒有要汰舊換新？"],["陳部長世凱：時間還沒到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候會到？"],["陳部長世凱：可以使用35年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我希望你們好好要求一下高鐵，新採購的列車數是怎麼算出來的？這12組怎麼算出來的？是按照運量的需求成長算出來的嗎？我先問一下，有沒有聽過路線容量跟利用率？臺鐵可不可以告訴我，臺鐵的路線容量跟利用率是多少？杜董事長，說得出來吧？有沒有？你解釋路線容量給大家聽。"],["杜董事長微：各路線的路線容量跟利用率不太一樣，不過平均起來，我們現在的路線容量到達85%以上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：利用率呢？"],["杜董事長微：利用率超過六成七。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你能告訴大家，什麼是路線容量跟利用率嗎？"],["杜董事長微：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請簡短的說。"],["杜董事長微：路線容量就是我們在每一個路段所能開行的列次。"],["鍾委員佳濱：利用率就是用了多少。"],["杜董事長微：利用率就是這些班次客人搭乘的情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高鐵有沒有？高鐵能不能告訴大家，你的路線容量是多少？你的利用率多少？說得出來嗎？"],["顏資深副總經理昭立：我們現在的乘載率分平日跟假日……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，我只問路線容量跟利用率，你能不能告訴我？臺鐵說得出來，你說得出來嗎？你說不出來嘛！因為我發公文去跟鐵道局要，卻要不到，如果一個軌道的運輸業者搞不清楚自己的路線容量、搞不清楚利用率，你告訴我現在可以跑34組列車、未來可以跑46組列車，基礎在哪裡？部長知道原因了吧！"],["陳部長世凱：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天我們要談臺灣的高鐵各站停站量、停站班次，對不對？你看到了沒有，大概都60、61，是不是這樣子？這六都嘛！你覺得臺南46會不會太多，還是太少？不曉得！你覺得屏東停的班次多少才恰當？跟彰化、雲林一樣多，好不好？可不可以？屏東不敢有太大野心，我不敢要求要跟左營一樣60班次，你要是給我跟彰化、雲林一樣，有17個班次就夠了。請問如果要滿足屏東的需求，你要多採購幾輛列車？這就是問題，我們都一直以為屏東設站在考慮路線，其實你要考慮到……屏東縣周縣長說得好，你的路線A案、B案，他說：不管，能夠趕快定案就是好案。按照運量來決定停靠的班次容量。有沒有聽過燕巢方案？燕巢方案跟其他的左營案、高雄案最大不同是什麼？燕巢方案是到了燕巢會往兩邊岔，會去高雄左營的就不會來屏東，會到屏東的就不會來高雄左營，表示如果你是走高雄段的新左營案或高雄案，高雄有60班，屏東就有60班，需要嗎？屏東只要17、18班就可以了，所以燕巢案的優點在哪裡？你只要考慮屏東需要的運能、運量，同不同意？瞭解了沒有？部長，瞭解了沒有？最後我要結束了，因為主席站起來了。"],["陳部長世凱：因為它有主橋要改變，有工程上面的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說路線的部分要考慮到未來的人客、乘客的市場規模，屏東不是南港，會到臺北的都會到南港，但是不需要會到左營的都會來屏東，只要能夠服務就好。最後，你知道日本的新幹線從1960年代到2020年代，60年代間他們的車廂列車進化是這樣子的，它的路線從剛開始500公里到現在3,000公里。所以拜託部長，高鐵要永續發展，我們要從軌道的長度及車廂的進化、列車的進化同步考量。最後三個結論，燕巢案本來就有，請交通部回顧，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：路線規劃除了考慮工程之外，也要考慮營運，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高鐵與臺灣同步永續發展，這是唯一的考量。最後的這幾個問題你帶回去，未來新站點的設置計畫、未來採購列車汰舊換新的期程規劃、未來班次成長的調度計畫以及延伸軌道服務的區域計畫，還有後勤人力的招募計畫，可不可以三個月內給個答案？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，可以提供給委員，沒問題，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","再來有請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我請我們交通部長還有民航局局長請陳部長跟民航局局長好 部長好 局長好"},{"start":18.904,"end":46.245,"text":"從今年以來波音737、800的飛安的問題不斷事實上在世界各國從馬來西亞航空、全日空到韓國的廉價航空、美國航空、瑞安航空那麼日本航空一連串的都出現了一些飛安上的問題那在全球的民航裡面大家也熱烈討論我想請問部長"},{"start":49.147,"end":64.679,"text":"您知道臺灣的航空公司有沒有採用波音738滑航那麼在這麼多的非安的問題傳出之後我不曉得交通部或者民航局有沒有針對這個我們"},{"start":69.015,"end":80.352,"text":"國航所採用的波音737、800裡面有做盤點還有做什麼相關的因應措施目前民航局有做過盤點那因應的措施是不是請局長"},{"start":81.528,"end":104.384,"text":"好請局長來大力回應一下有關737、800這個就是說各國發生的一些狀況那我們民航局有進行盤點在臺灣有沒有發生過目前來講是沒有類似的情形那基本上因為我們是只有華航有10架737、800那FAA之前有發布一個公告那它大概是針對737機型的"},{"start":106.485,"end":112.207,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":132.093,"end":141.158,"text":"部長 剛才您特別講事實上我們的觀光目標人數今年本來1200萬然後現在降到1000萬一度講到750萬但是我剛才看你 你又講到800萬"},{"start":147.722,"end":154.026,"text":"那我覺得這個目標變得非常浮動目標還是在一千萬沒有變過好那我請問一下你剛才講那一千萬如果沒有達到的話因為你當時到了年底你這個部長的時間也當很久了不會像之前你剛當部長我們給你一點這個學習的時間喔那麼如果在今年年底沒有達到一千萬的話請問一下部長你如何自處"},{"start":175.657,"end":186.163,"text":"報告委員第4屆我們的狀況會好一些那當然之前所定下來的目標我們全力在衝刺本來就該衝刺啊所以部長或者署長沒有達1000萬你們該怎麼辦我要講的是現在觀光業苦哈哈"},{"start":193.487,"end":200.209,"text":"你們這個目標自己隨便定隨便調到不到沒有辦法達到就把它變成一千萬然後又變七百五十萬現在好一點把它放到八百萬所以我要問的是你今天如果你在民間的公司你有KPI啊如果好那我問你年底達不到一千萬你自己或者是觀光署署長要不要費負政治責任嗎我們當然要檢討我們當然要檢討你們檢討是怎麼檢討法"},{"start":220.458,"end":235.447,"text":"哪裡做不好就檢討哪裡我要講的是像以前瞻前瞻有很多的觀光計畫的預算我們來看一到四期就是執行到今年年年底"},{"start":236.243,"end":248.635,"text":"你們的執行率都很高喔執行率都很高所以錢都花完了到整個10年到114年度前瞻觀光的建設計費65億以上所以"},{"start":251.858,"end":255.581,"text":"你今天不能告訴我觀光預算花光光然後旅客不來心慌慌啊現在不是我們官員也心慌慌這個數字條來條去然後我們所有的觀光業者心慌慌啊旅客到底在哪裡我只是講務實能達到的狀況我要跟大家報告真實的狀況"},{"start":272.856,"end":276.237,"text":"因為當你喊出1200萬的時候部長啊所以你今天是怪你前面的部長啊訂了1200萬太高了嗎政府當你訂1200萬的時候民間的觀光業者會認為你會全力達到所以不管我的投資不管我的設備甚至我用人"},{"start":295.104,"end":310.352,"text":"結果呢 一下變成750萬 我算一算 變成少4成欸然後說現在啊 年底再把它衝一下我要講的就是 不要變成錢出去人不來我們現在的觀光部就變這樣嗎 錢出去人不來我們要的是 人出去錢進來啊 對不對"},{"start":319.492,"end":340.912,"text":"現在你這樣的一個整個觀光產業現在要死不活你坐在這邊你可能辛苦的是回答我們這個民意代表的質詢可是很多觀光業者他是生死存亡之戰他可能年底他就要決定他今天要不要結束營業了"},{"start":342.413,"end":364.839,"text":"所以當你的這個目標數字是一再浮動然後沒有任何人可以被檢討啊那我另外請問你們對觀光業者本來來臺灣一個人補助五千塊這個錢是不是已經花光了因為有人已經已經有觀光業者在問我是不是花完了這不是補助五千塊它是一個活動"},{"start":365.839,"end":390.81,"text":"那麼這個預算也是到114年現在是113年還在執行嗎還在執行中而這個所謂的前瞻計畫其實超過80%是硬體設施就像房子舊了老了你要更新就是需要用這個前瞻計畫來做所以啊政府也給你錢立法院也給你錢我剛剛講嘛錢全部都下去了執行階加進百分之百結果呢人不來"},{"start":392.151,"end":394.434,"text":"我要特別提到我們現在臺灣真的應該變成觀光大國我們過去也以觀光為非常非常主要的這麼多的服務業產業是來自於觀光我剛才特別講的現在的觀光產業真的太慘了"},{"start":409.551,"end":433.178,"text":"如果你們可以苦民所苦的話今天就不是在玩這樣的數字遊戲啦好不好所以呢我們會盯到年底喔部長請讓你們大家皮繃緊一點喔大家都在努力對不要以為說答不成算了齁那我們都努力過了不行我覺得如果答不成的話一定要有人負政治責任好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時26分）謝謝主席。我請交通部長還有民航局局長。"],["主席：請陳部長跟民航局局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好、局長好。從今年以來，波音737-800的飛安問題不斷，事實上在世界各國，從馬來西亞航空、全日空到韓國的廉價航空、美國航空、瑞安航空、日本航空，一連串地都出現一些飛安上的問題，在全球的民航裡面，大家也熱烈討論。我想請問部長，您知道臺灣的航空公司有沒有採用波音737-800的？"],["陳部長世凱：華航。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，在這麼多的飛安問題傳出之後，我不曉得交通部或者民航局有沒有針對國航所採用的波音737-800做盤點或是做什麼相關的因應措施？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前民航局有做過盤點，因應的措施是不是請局長來說明？"],["王委員鴻薇：好，請局長大略回應一下。"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，有關737-800各國發生的一些狀況，民航局有進行盤點，目前……"],["王委員鴻薇：在臺灣有沒有發生過？"],["何局長淑萍：目前來講沒有類似的情形，基本上只有華航有10架737-800，FAA之前有發布一個公告，它大概是針對737機型的部分，就是針對MAX或是NG，這個部分，因為華航737-800……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在這10架都照飛嘛？"],["何局長淑萍：對，目前來講，就照華航的維護計畫及相關的檢修計畫在執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，因為飛航安全是最重要的，所以我要特別提醒交通部有關於飛航安全的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：民航局長先請回，我請觀光署署長。部長，剛才您特別講，本來我們今年的觀光目標人數是1,200萬，現在降到1,000萬，一度講到750萬，但是我剛才看你又講到800萬，我覺得這個目標變得非常浮動……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目標還是在1,000萬，沒有變過。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我請問一下，你剛才講那1,000萬如果沒有達到的話，因為到了年底，你當部長的時間也很久了，不會像之前你剛當部長的時候，我們還給你一點學習的時間，如果在今年年底沒有達到1,000萬的話，請問部長如何自處？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，第四季我們的狀況會好一些，當然之前所定下來的目標我們全力在衝刺……"],["王委員鴻薇：本來就該衝刺啊！"],["陳部長世凱：有在衝刺。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以部長或者署長，如果沒有達到1,000萬，你們該怎麼辦？我要講的是，現在觀光業苦哈哈，你們這個目標自己隨便訂、隨便調，沒有辦法達到就把它變成1,000萬，然後又變750萬，現在好一點把它放到800萬，所以我要問的是，今天如果是民間的公司……"],["陳部長世凱：不是這個樣子，目標還是1,000萬。"],["王委員鴻薇：你有KPI啊！我問你，年底達不到1,000萬，你自己或者是觀光署署長要不要負政治責任？要不要？"],["陳部長世凱：我們當然要檢討。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們檢討是怎麼檢討法？"],["陳部長世凱：哪裡做不好就檢討哪裡，哪裡做不好就改進哪裡。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的是，像前瞻有很多觀光計畫的預算，我們來看1到4期，就是執行到今年年底，你們的執行率都很高，所以錢都花完了。110年到114年度前瞻觀光的建設經費有65億以上，所以你今天不能告訴我，觀光預算花光光，旅客不來心慌慌，現在是官員也心慌慌。這個數字調來調去，讓所有的觀光業者心慌慌，旅客到底在哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：數字沒有調來調去，我只是講務實能達到的狀況，我要跟大家報告真實的狀況，目標還是一樣，是1,000萬，1,000萬不是我訂的，已經訂出來，我沒有改變過。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為當你喊出1,200萬的時候……部長，所以你今天是怪前面的部長，訂了1,200萬太高了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：當然不是，這個目標我們繼續在努力當中。"],["王委員鴻薇：當政府訂1,200萬的時候，民間的觀光業者會認為你會全力達到，所以不管投資、設備，甚至用人都投入，結果一下變成750萬，我算一算變成少四成，現在才說年底再把它衝一下。我要講的就是不要變成錢出去、人不來，現在的觀光署就變這樣，錢出去、人不來，我們要的是人出去、錢進來，對不對？現在整個觀光產業要死不活，你坐在這邊，你辛苦的可能是回答我們這些民意代表的質詢，可是很多觀光業者是面臨生死存亡之戰，他可能年底就要決定要不要結束營業了。當你的目標數字一再浮動，卻沒有任何人可以被檢討。","我另外請問，你們本來對來臺灣觀光者一個人補助5,000塊，這個錢是不是已經花光了？因為已經有觀光業者在問我，是不是花完了？"],["周署長永暉：這不是補助5,000塊，它是一個活動，那麼這個預算也是到114年，現在是113年……"],["王委員鴻薇：還在執行嗎？"],["周署長永暉：還在執行中，而所謂的前瞻計畫其實超過百分之八十是硬體設施，就像房子舊了、老了要更新，就需要用前瞻計畫來做。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以政府給你錢，立法院也給你錢，我剛剛講錢全部都下去了，執行率將近百分之百，結果人不來。我要特別提到，臺灣真的應該變成觀光大國，我們過去也以觀光為非常、非常主要的產業，這麼多的服務業都是在觀光業，我剛才特別講，現在觀光產業真的太慘了，如果你們可以苦民所苦，今天就不是在玩這樣的數字遊戲，好不好？我會盯到年底。部長，請你讓大家皮繃緊一點。"],["陳部長世凱：大家都在努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：不要以為達不成就算了、我們都努力過就是不行。我覺得如果達不成的話，一定要有人負政治責任。好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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是我們高雄臺中甚至現在都還沒有臺南也沒有"},{"start":478.451,"end":505.769,"text":"所以要怎麼樣去配套我說這是一個比較新的觀念但是如果我們有這樣子做思考我們才會把這個廣度再加廣這個除了日本之外他們還有什麼送小禮物啦什麼之類的有很多打折等等的所以你看日本、韓國這裡日本的大牌周遊券有90項免費景點或優惠那首爾它的轉轉卡有75項"},{"start":507.489,"end":532.078,"text":"我們高雄航空卡是21項啦那北北七是35項那當然北北七這裡最貴他可能包括101要450元可能包括故宮要350元那是他算算了他就配合年輕人現在很會算他差幾百塊幾十塊他就去算那要怎麼設計比較配合那這個東西如果沒有我們先把它規劃一個配套的話"},{"start":533.098,"end":558.32,"text":"一去自由行就是靠自己去搜尋現在高雄市跟北北區這個做法都是城市地方自己處理那有沒有機會我們觀光署跟公路局跟交通部來做一個整體的思考比如說我在高雄我要去客公館他就要另外領域,這是國立的嘛比如說你在台南要去國立你是保護館"},{"start":559.78,"end":572.334,"text":"這是國立的可能他就因為他這個有點複雜啦需要由中央來協助要把這個串聯會比較容易所以我其實今天這個最大的目的就是說我們"},{"start":573.544,"end":600.342,"text":"的TPAS 2.0其實我以前就有質詢過在部長還沒來的時候其實我已經好幾個部長我都有質詢過是不是可以把這個規劃進來這個對於有利於推動觀光尤其是自由行年輕人的觀光絕對有蠻大的幫助那不管是國大、國內或國外的旅遊也都會有幫助那是不是部長跟觀光署跟公路局我們確實的把這個部分思考進去"},{"start":605.005,"end":625.276,"text":"是 如果觀光跟通勤可以結合在一起的話當然對大家來講都會比較方便目前比較成熟的是高雄跟北北京這兩個都市的部分我們先來協助看有沒有辦法整合在一起不過因為技術面在通勤的月票的卡它後台的一些編碼的技術面的問題可能還要再克服這個我們來努力一下"},{"start":626.226,"end":649.42,"text":"那明年我們看得到進步的因為好玩卡的英文名字叫做Taiwan Pass明年我們可以做得出至少做得出一部分成長的成績給我們看"},{"start":650.356,"end":653.858,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":673.476,"end":700.489,"text":"把全世界到日本去參加萬國博覽會的這些人口一部分帶到台灣來旅遊也會增加我們的觀光客所以這個部分事實上也是希望說觀光署跟交通部可以一起思考他國有這樣子一個活動順便來台灣正好那這個都希望說所以總而言之我希望說好玩卡TPAS可以結合那我們希望明年可以看得到成績這樣好不好我們來努力好謝謝"},{"start":706.465,"end":706.87,"text":"好 謝謝許議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":872,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時14分）主席、大家好。我們先請部長跟鐵道局長。"],["主席：有請陳部長跟鐵道局局長。"],["許委員智傑：請教一下部長跟局長，現在高雄高鐵已經做決定了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前還沒有，目前還是兩個案，一個是左營案，一個是進入高雄市區的案子，所以是兩個案子。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在還沒做決定？"],["陳部長世凱：對，還沒做最後決定。"],["許委員智傑：我們先假設如果是左營案，那就是照原來的案子了嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：如果是高雄案，它會到高雄車站，然後再到屏東車站？"],["陳部長世凱：屏東……"],["許委員智傑：但是我鳳山車站好像沒有規劃進去，我知道有很多工程的困難度，因為我初步了解，它要鑽地下上來要12層樓，它要拆掉1棟22層樓的大廈。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：但是其實我們地方的反映是，可不可以閃得過？可不可以閃得過就是你規劃的大小範圍不見得要那麼一板一眼嘛！如果閃得過，是不是有機會，如果是高雄案要到高雄車站，再到屏東車站，是不是要把我鳳山車站考慮進去？"],["陳部長世凱：在工程面向上，確實目前評估起來是有困難，委員在講的閃不閃得過這個問題，我們也請鐵道局來研究看看有沒有那個機會，如果閃得過，當然是可以啦，但是工程面向這部分，我不敢在這邊跟委員承諾，這個要做完研究之後，如果可行，當然就照委員所建議的……"],["許委員智傑：我希望部長跟局長能夠盡全力去思考啦！因為我知道那棟22層樓的大廈其實離鳳山車站還有一段距離，只是它要上去的時候，範圍需要比較大，如果以工程技術來講，我覺得那裡已經算是尾端了，如果閃得過，應該有機會可以閃得過去，所以我希望既然要從高雄車站來了，如果又到屏東車站，卻跳過我們鳳山，其實這個情何以堪？所以我希望部長跟局長，關於這個部分是不是可以做再一次的評估，把原來計畫評估的那棟22層樓的大樓把它閃過去？"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，這個我們認真來做細節上面的確認跟評估。"],["許委員智傑：我是覺得有調整的空間啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：那個地方其實就我了解，真的是邊陲，離車站還有一段距離，你要四四方方，如果少一個角，不見得要四四方方，因為那個遠的地方，可以做一下調整。所以坦白講，高雄車站如果沒有經過我們鳳山車站，我們壓力也的確是很大，所以我希望能夠排除萬難，把它完成，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們朝這個方向努力，來討論技術面看怎麼克服。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。我們換觀光署。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長上一次有提到我們觀光人次從1,200萬調整到1,000萬嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：這是之前的部長說的。"],["許委員智傑：對，那現在部長跟署長有沒有討論大概到年底可以到達多少？"],["陳部長世凱：我們的目標一樣是1,000萬，我強調過好多次，前線的同仁還在努力爭取國外的旅客能夠進來台灣，所以這個目標我並沒有要下修，但之前有提到實際上大概能夠達到多少，比較有把握的是750萬，我目前聽觀光署給我的數字，已經超過620萬了，看起來再努力一下，有機會可以到達800萬，在今天的數字。"],["許委員智傑：好，明年大概也是估計1,000萬，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我是認為如果今年設定的目標沒有達成，明年就要達成今年該達成的目標；如果達成了，我們再往上拉。"],["許委員智傑：應該要再放遠一點啦！","TPASS其實從一開始111年北北基開始實施，然後是我們高雄，陸陸續續現在反應也不錯，所以當時我也有質詢過，台灣好玩卡是不是可以跟TPASS結合？今年部長也決定要做TPASS 2.0的方案，對不對？這個TPASS 2.0方案有沒有包括好玩卡的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，高雄市有提出短天期TPASS的方案……"],["陳部長世凱：它短天期的有提出來。"],["陳局長文瑞：對、對。"],["陳部長世凱：我們有提供修正的建議給他們，目前他們還沒有回來。"],["許委員智傑：好，我希望讓部長、署長跟局長稍微了解一下，你們先看大阪這一張，其實他山之石，可以攻錯，我簡單再講一下，現在全世界好玩卡做得最好的應該是大阪，臺灣做得最好的是我們高雄，要怎麼樣去吸引觀光客？我想部長、署長、局長跟我的年紀差不多，我們可能都是屬於比較團遊、團體旅遊，如果是年輕人那個自由行，我不知道你們有沒有觀念？比如說，今天去日本、去大版自由行的會怎麼玩？他一般都會買好玩卡，包括在歐洲，像布魯塞爾、哥本哈根、維也納等等的城市都有好玩卡，所以歐洲在州內不同的國度玩，其實年輕人去玩就是買個好玩卡就到處玩了。","我再講一下日本，你看它的好玩卡設計得多細，你看這張圖，上面有不同國家的語言，他們把景點列在上面，包括日期，哪一天哪個景點是休息的、不開放的，他們都會在這個地方列得很清楚，這樣年輕人要去玩的時候，就可以規劃他哪一天要到哪裡，這個地方有沒有開放，他都可以看得很清楚，然後又找偶像一起去做行銷、代言等等的，甚至他們還有什麼地方有扭蛋之類的附贈品，部長知不知道扭蛋機？"],["陳部長世凱：知道，我們家小朋友時常會花錢去扭。"],["許委員智傑：因為有些人可能太久沒有玩小朋友玩的東西了。簡單來講，像這樣子的方式，自由行的非常多，我們如果要吸引其他國家的觀光客來，我們這部分的基本配套不夠，不要說國外旅遊，說國內旅遊就好，我今天從臺北、臺中、高雄來，如果有這個好玩卡的話，目前只有北北基有做，再來就是我們高雄，臺中甚至現在都還沒有，臺南也沒有，所以要怎麼樣去配套？我說這是一個比較新的觀念，但是我們要這樣子去思考，才會把這個廣度再加廣。像日本還有什麼送小禮物、打折之類的，有很多，所以你看日本、韓國這裡，日本的大阪周遊券有90項免費景點或優惠，首爾轉轉卡有75項，我們高雄好玩卡是21項，北北基是35項，當然北北基這裡最貴的可能包括101要450元，包括故宮要350元，如果他算一算覺得划算，年輕人現在很會算，差個幾百元、幾十元，他就會去算看要怎麼玩會比較划算，這個東西如果我們沒有先把它規劃成一個配套的話，自由行就只能靠自己去搜尋而已。","現在高雄市跟北北基這個作法都是城市地方自己處理，有沒有機會觀光署、公路局跟交通部來做一個整體的思考？比如說我在高雄，我要去科工館，就要另外繳錢，這是國立的；比如說你在臺南，你要去國立歷史博物館，這是國立的。因為它這個有點複雜，需要由中央來協助，要把這個串聯會比較容易。所以我今天最大的目的就是想問，是不是可以把這個部分規劃進TPASS2.0？其實我以前就有質詢過，在部長還沒來之前，已經好幾個部長我都有質詢過，這個有利於推動觀光，尤其是對自由行年輕人的觀光絕對有滿大的幫助，不管是國內或國外來旅遊，也都會有幫助。部長跟觀光署跟公路局是不是可以確實地把這個部分思考進去？這樣800萬有可能就變成1,000萬了。"],["陳部長世凱：如果觀光跟通勤可以結合在一起的話，當然對大家來講都會比較方便，目前比較成熟的是高雄跟北北基，這兩個都市的部分我們先來協助，看有沒有辦法整合在一起。不過因為技術面，就是通勤月票那個卡的後臺一些編碼的技術面問題可能還要再克服，這個我們來努力一下。"],["周署長永暉：這個還包括清分，所以我們跟悠遊卡公司還有一卡通都有保持聯繫，部長已經有指示了，我們後續會把這兩個當作一個很好的案例……"],["許委員智傑：明年我們看得到進步的……"],["周署長永暉：因為好玩卡的英文名字就是Taiwan PASS。"],["許委員智傑：好，那明年，你明年至少做出一部分成長的成績給我們看嘛！因為觀念是不錯，大家都覺得觀念不錯，但不是觀念不錯說一說就算了。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來推行。"],["許委員智傑：明年我希望可以看得到成果，包括明年日本的世界博覽會，他們稱為萬國博覽會，全世界的人到亞洲、到日本去，那是不是比如說你來臺灣，我就送你一張TPASS好玩卡，把全世界到日本去參加萬國博覽會的人口一部分帶到臺灣來旅遊，也會增加我們的觀光客。這個部分事實上也是希望觀光署跟交通部可以一起來思考，他國有這樣子的活動，順便來臺灣正好啊！總而言之，我希望好玩卡和TPASS可以結合，我們希望明年可以看得到成績，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。","再來請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":829,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時3分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長和觀光署周署長。"],["主席（林委員沛祥代）：請陳部長和周署長。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好、署長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：首先謝謝部長，上個禮拜一我們交通委員會到屏東來考察，從考察結束那個時候開始，我就接到很多鄉親的電話說：屏東的交通問題到底是不是有解了？","交通委員會也看了好幾次，關於所謂的路線問題，包含高鐵也好、高捷也好，還有我們的屏南快速道路，甚至是一些觀光的方案也好，經過一個禮拜之後，部長個人有沒有信心可以處理我們這樣的一個交通、觀光的困境？"],["陳部長世凱：我想交通部跟委員一起在努力啦！包含屏東縣政府也非常努力，所有我們在爭取的交通建設的案子都在推進當中，目前都有進度，而且都在推進當中，所以這個當然是有信心的。"],["徐委員富癸：我在這邊真的要很誠懇地拜託部長，就是我們鄉親的期待，因為屏東不是只要解決交通的問題，它還牽扯到觀光的層面、產業的層面，還有文化、教育諸多層面，交通不解決，這些東西都無法到位，這個我想部長最清楚，所以我們很期待每個階段都要有它的進展，每個階段也要有它的結果，讓鄉親覺得屏東不再是「站尾包衰」。這點我們大家一起來努力。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，從早上9點開始質詢，我就發現周署長的臉上漸漸失去了微笑曲線，微笑曲線是署長最喜歡講的。","署長，以出國人數和國內旅遊對比，真的是有很強烈的落差，從出國人次的一千多萬，到現在我們入境才六百多萬，觀光署這邊對整個策略的思考到底有沒有出現什麼樣的問題？可不可以請部長和署長做個答復？"],["周署長永暉：跟委員簡單報告一下，目前我們都是一個年度、一個年度在做整體檢討，今年度大概分成兩個部分，一個是可控的因素，一個是不可控的因素，因為在檢討的時候本來就是需要這樣子說明，有些我們還是可以繼續努力的部分，原則上在海外的部分還是五路齊發，因為我們覺得推廣會和旅展的參與，還有這些重要景點或是重要轉運站的行銷、廣告還是很重要，然後再加上社群。另外一個部分就是國旅方面，確實在疫情解封之後，國人比較熱愛旅遊的都是往國外走，尤其是匯率差，或者是有些特定的，譬如說越南富國島等等的團價都比較便宜，所以反而鼓勵了國人往外旅遊的意願。但是我們國內的部分還是可以強化的，就是說我們發現22個縣市政府，尤其是六都的部分其實也開始搭配重要的活動，像高雄在演唱會方面就可以看到它的成效，當然還有米其林，在臺中的米其林其實也帶動了臺中的美食旅遊，我們覺得從這些還是可以看到大家努力的成果。但是住宿這個部分，我們確實一直希望還是能夠留客，現在國旅留宿的部分還是一樣，就是一日遊的比例太高，所以我們還是希望能夠留宿。"],["徐委員富癸：署長，這個部分我還是要替民宿業者發聲，憑良心講，我們有很多優質的民宿，可是觀光署在觀光推展方面往往還是以星級旅館、飯店為主，其實我們很多優質民宿是值得他們前往的，尤其很多年輕人願意去投資，然後把一些創意發想在裡面，包含吃喝玩樂，他們都有一些很棒的套裝行程，但是觀光署針對民宿業的輔導措施似乎沒有一個對等的看待，這部分是不是可以強化一下？"],["周署長永暉：我想我們國際旅展也可以把一些優質民宿一起帶到國外去。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我覺得民宿比較能夠克服現在國旅不振的狀況，因為我們現在交通方便，常常都是一日遊，但是民宿的部分會有很多跟一般飯店不太一樣的住宿體驗，我看他們在網路上面的宣傳，甚至我有鼓勵我們的觀光署要去學習民宿的網路宣傳，網路宣傳的部分他們本身做得不錯，看看觀光署能不能協助他們，在宣傳面向上面怎麼去把他們的特色拿出來。"],["徐委員富癸：他們很靈活啦！"],["陳部長世凱：他們非常靈活。"],["徐委員富癸：而且他們可以跟在地的小農、青農合作，做一些不一樣的深度體驗。"],["陳部長世凱：對！"],["徐委員富癸：包含未來我們要結合社區做一些深度體驗，這部分都是我們需要努力的方向。"],["陳部長世凱：今年觀光署也有選定103家的金質獎得獎民宿，這個部分我們會大力來推廣。"],["徐委員富癸：另外就是我有在跟幾位南部的委員討論一個問題，其實我們很多東南亞的遊客，他們往往因為班機的問題必須飛到桃園，他們沒辦法直接到小港機場，因為這樣的誘因不足，造成他們要來南臺灣旅遊的意願會降低，而且消費會增加，這部分有沒有辦法請民航局再協調一下，增加我們小港機場的航班？"],["陳部長世凱：好，有關這個部分，今年它的航點已經比過去疫情期間更多了，這個部分我們還會持續來爭取，我們希望未來小港機場可以作為臺灣非常重要的一個機場，所以不管是航點、航線、航班，我們都希望能夠成長跟增加，這個部分我們來爭取。"],["徐委員富癸：這個部分我們還是繼續來努力啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我們觀光署國際的宣傳費用從111年開始，一年都要花十幾億，我想這個花的錢不在少數，但是花了這個錢之後，看起來並沒有增加國外旅客到臺灣旅遊的誘因，我們國內的景點大概還是停留在故宮、九份，甚至墾丁這邊，也是固定那幾個景點，我們沒有開發新的景點，很遺憾的是，就我們來看，像最近的佳樂水，以前是我們的記憶，國小畢業旅行一定要去玩，甚至很多國外遊客一定要來墾丁國家公園玩，但是因為卡到我們有觀光署、有墾丁國家公園管理處，這些疊床架屋之後，佳樂水在這次颱風之後，沒人要管啦！很可憐啦！未來要怎麼去處理建設的問題？有沒有辦法整合？"],["陳部長世凱：是，那個部分我們了解過，當然它是屬於國家公園裡面，如果交通部這邊能夠做的、能夠協助的，包含觀光宣傳的部分，我們當然可以努力，不過硬體的部分，似乎我們之前有想辦法要做，可是被監察院糾正過，所以這個部分……"],["徐委員富癸：今天國家公園署的代理署長也有來，我也想請他一起，到時候大家來討論一下，怎麼樣來協助佳樂水再現風華，因為我想上次、上個禮拜一，部長，我們一起在談恆春建城150週年，當然我覺得有一個很有意義的就是我們要跨部會整合，包含整個恆春古城的建設、包含墾丁國家公園的發展，我想這部分都必須要花很多的心力來跨部會整合，不要大家都是在推責任而已，都不要扛責任，這樣是不對啦！明年恆春建城150週年，這邊也特別拜託部長跟署長全力支持，我們恆春建城150週年，是一個很有意義的歷史活動，我們有這樣的場域……"],["陳部長世凱：目前有三個活動，我們會儘量來協助，三個活動都儘量來協助，另外我們有成立一個恆春建城150週年的專案小組，我們大鵬灣的風景管理處會作為窗口，大家一起來研商，看要怎麼協助。"],["徐委員富癸：好，最後我有一個問題，剛剛有提到貨輪擱淺的問題，葉局長，先前凱米颱風，東港這邊還有一艘蒙古籍的巴西亞貨輪，到現在都還沒有拖走，前幾天的颱風，我看位置又偏了，更危險。"],["葉局長協隆：有，跟委員報告，我們持續都有專人監控它的狀況，一個是船體的位置，另外一個是海面有沒有油污，持續每一天都有，另外，空拍允許的情況之下，我們也都會空拍，也會送給海保署，另外……"],["徐委員富癸：現在是決定就地解體嗎？還是要拖走？"],["葉局長協隆：因為它的狀況可能就地解體的機會較大，大概沒有辦法拖帶離開，所以應該可能是就地解體，不過現在因為保險公司沒有出面處理，我們依照商港法介入處理，現在公開招標之後，廠商會提出船體圖計畫，我們會來做審查，如果有機會拖出去，我們當然是希望能夠拖出去。"],["徐委員富癸：局長，這個要拜託加快，因為我真的發現那個變成一個網紅景點。部長，很多人都在那裡拍照。"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，我看到有這種……"],["徐委員富癸：都走得很靠近，我都很怕他們被海浪打到，真的很危險。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["徐委員富癸：已經快三個月了，再拜託局長趕快處理，好不好？"],["葉局長協隆：是，我們現在就是儘快公開招標，然後找廠商來做處理，另外圍籬的部分，我們會把它圍設得完整。"],["徐委員富癸：也應該做一個安全的防護措施，避免真的發生危險。好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","再來有請許智傑委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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通通都清完畢了沒想到現在蘇丹紅食安風暴又再起而且又是同一家公司寄生公司請問你們查到目前為止你們查到的真相到底是什麼為什麼現在咖哩粉裡面又有蘇丹紅又爆發出來了"},{"start":63.18,"end":80.104,"text":"我先解釋一下,這個我們當時就阻絕於境外。對,逐批查驗。阻絕境外怎麼還會流進來?據我了解是因為原來在阻絕之前的原料。是不是我們請副署長。好,來副署長。跟委員報告,這一次"},{"start":87.662,"end":94.877,"text":"就是我們食藥署跟地方衛生局持續在後市場都沒有停的在查核那查核的"},{"start":96.272,"end":117.415,"text":"結果這一次是寄生的特調咖哩粉那他做的產品5000多盒現在回收了1700多盒那基本上原物料目前都在我們食藥署的國家實驗室做再次的確認那初步懷疑是他的其中一個原料"},{"start":118.436,"end":119.056,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":137.088,"end":137.368,"text":"以上報告。"},{"start":154.565,"end":182.15,"text":"好那薑黃粉的話現在國內其實運用的蠻普遍的喔特別是在咖哩那咖哩的那個產品又非常的多你們現在發現的是從印度進來的這一批那請問我們薑黃粉有沒有從其他國家進口的只有印度嗎會不會又有漏網之魚因為之前你們查辣椒粉的時候逐批檢驗是對岸中國大陸那現在又出來薑黃粉"},{"start":183.85,"end":200.28,"text":"有蘇丹紅是從印度但是只有印度這個國家嗎那你們現在採取的措施是要逐批檢驗嗎來自印度的那其他國家會不會有別的薑黃粉流入你們現在掌握到的從其他國家進來的薑黃粉還有哪些國家"},{"start":202.162,"end":202.662,"text":"所以表示有漏網之魚流入市場嗎?對不對?"},{"start":227.839,"end":236.609,"text":"到底我問你一個問題蘇丹紅他可以衍生的添加的到底有哪一些的調味粉之前說是辣椒粉現在連薑黃粉也可以到底還有什麼種類"},{"start":240.575,"end":269.217,"text":"各位委員報告目前國際警訊上面有的我們都已經設了包括辣椒粉、咖哩粉這些都有我們是把過去10年國際上曾經有檢出疑似有蘇丹色素違規的項目在邊境都設立查驗那當然一開始是百分之百那驗了大概半年多以後結果都沒有發現有的我們就會回歸到風險的管理那這一次"},{"start":269.957,"end":298.266,"text":"印度確實是當時在年初的時候因為國內都沒發現國際也沒有所以我們是沒有拉到最高的百分之百那這一次在後市場發現我們回饋到邊境從明天開始就會百分之百明天開始百分之百的抽驗那我問你現在已經在市場上面的你還有繼續去抽樣嗎我高度懷疑的是之前流進來的因為之前沒有百分之百嘛"},{"start":298.706,"end":299.006,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":315.831,"end":331.084,"text":"各位報告只要確定是薑黃粉的話我們就會比照今年年初的做法會去全面清查只要是在後市場還在校期內的我們就會去清查會比照年初的做法你們多久會完成這項工作"},{"start":332.789,"end":351.619,"text":"跟我們報告其實蘇丹社是今年發生以來我們邊境是由食藥署負責後市場跟衛生局都沒有停都是持續在查持續在查對都沒有停所以才會發現有這一批但是但是代表說也沒有斷就是說你們的查算沒有停你們當時信誓旦旦是說"},{"start":352.719,"end":376.05,"text":"整個市場都很乾淨了然後外面也阻絕於境外結果就是破工現在看起來就不是這麼回事所以我要求這個食藥署在這件事情上面你們查緝的力道其實還是要很強的包括你們抽菸的比例其實還要增加因為這關乎食安要不然你們的保證大家就沒有信心了你們上半年信誓旦旦的保證現在又爆出而且這個數量還是蠻龐大的你說五千多件"},{"start":380.852,"end":382.473,"text":"我們今年的主結是應該是完全主結的那就是可能"},{"start":409.232,"end":409.932,"text":"接下來我問是今天的有關於"},{"start":426.48,"end":426.62,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":448.21,"end":476.193,"text":"兩千七百一十八人服務率只有兩趴多那像嘉義縣這種資源比較高度匱乏的地方他連一家在地的協會都沒有還是靠嘉義市的那這樣子的一個情況底下你說你所有的服務要回歸社區然後要做得很好怎麼做你你基本的服務量能就完全不夠啊而且你還有這個縣市資源落差的問題像嘉義縣這樣的一個地方連協會都沒有啊"},{"start":476.974,"end":500.791,"text":"那請問要怎麼提供服務謝謝委員關切就是說我們社區的這個精神病人服務的資源相對不足這一帶那其實我們除了我們爭取經費來補助民間團體可以來增加精神病人社區支持資源之外其實我們也在關切能夠提供這樣的服務的團體並不多"},{"start":502.332,"end":525.347,"text":"所以我們透過公財回饋這邊我們有一個團體的一個培力計畫我們希望能夠有一些團體目前沒有在提供精神病人的社區支持服務我們希望能夠來培力他可以提供這種服務所以我們是同步在進行一方面那你們目前響應的有多少人你們有沒有針對資源匱乏就像我講的嘉義縣連一家都沒有有在你們重點的培養嗎"},{"start":526.668,"end":544.564,"text":"有的,因為我們目前...他目前培養出幾家嘉義縣?嘉義縣目前有兩家,一個是...都是嘉義市康復自由協會,但是是提供兩個方案,但是我們會持續的來做其他...這樣的量能是顯然不夠的啊,嘉義縣就有超過萬名的精神病友耶。是,是。"},{"start":545.885,"end":571.334,"text":"那這樣子極度匱乏的區域我要知道是說那你們的強化措施是什麼要不然這個其實縣市資源充足的比如說首都這麼多的團體這麼多的資源那他會得到很好的照顧那像嘉義縣資源這麼匱乏的地方那他就顯得他可能有需求但是沒有人可以來服務啊你們要怎麼去平衡那個城鄉的落差這個可能是重點嗎"},{"start":572.034,"end":595.926,"text":"是沒有錯齁其實我們做團體的一個賠利齁我們並不是說只有補助給團體請他們來做這件事情我們有一個專門的團隊去輔導我們的團體因為時間的關係喔部長我要求齁這個衛福部必須去盤點我今天已經具體指出來了像嘉義縣它就是嚴重資源匱乏的地方連一家的服務的協會都沒有你們要去盤點那你們如果說有輔導的計畫"},{"start":601.129,"end":601.189,"text":"王育敏"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1038,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（12時29分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，蘇丹紅食安風暴再起，到目前為止有查清楚是什麼原因了嗎？我這邊有列出來，當時上半年的時候發生蘇丹紅事件，你們在3月13號時已經宣布邊境管制的措施而且要阻絕於境外，之前你們也說後市場通通都清乾淨了、通通都清完畢了，沒想到現在蘇丹紅食安風暴又再起，而且又是同一家公司──濟生公司，請問到目前為止，你們查到的真相到底是什麼？為什麼現在咖哩粉裡面又有蘇丹紅爆發出來？"],["邱部長泰源：我先解釋一下，我們當時就阻絕於境外……"],["王委員育敏：對，逐批查驗，阻絕境外怎麼還會流進來？"],["邱部長泰源：據我了解，是因為原來、在阻絕之前的原料啦！"],["王委員育敏：就流進來了？"],["邱部長泰源：是不是我們請副署長……"],["王委員育敏：好，來，副署長。"],["林副署長金富：委員好。跟委員報告，這一次就是我們食藥署跟地方衛生局在後市場沒有停的持續查核，而這一次查核的結果是濟生的特調咖哩粉，它做的產品五千多盒，現在回收了一千七百多盒，基本上原物料目前都在我們食藥署國家實驗室做再次確認，初步懷疑是它其中一個原料薑黃粉疑似有遭受蘇丹色素的污染，如果確定以後，這個產品是從印度進來的，我們會針對印度整個國家輸入的咖哩粉，目前印度的咖哩粉有設了，但是薑黃粉沒有，我們會立即把它調整為百分之百逐批查驗，但先前在邊境做的大部分都是針對辣椒粉、辣椒乾、還有咖哩粉，這一次新發現的是薑黃粉，以上報告。"],["王委員育敏：好，薑黃粉現在國內其實運用蠻普遍的，特別是在咖哩，咖哩的產品又非常多，你們現在發現的是從印度進來的這一批，請問我們的薑黃粉有沒有從其他國家進口的？只有印度嗎？會不會又有漏網之魚？因為之前你們查辣椒粉的時候，逐批檢驗是對岸中國大陸，現在又爆出薑黃粉有蘇丹紅，是從印度，但是只有印度這個國家嗎？關於你們現在採取的措施，來自印度的是要逐批檢驗嗎？會不會有別的其他國家的薑黃粉流入？你們現在掌握到從其他國家進來的薑黃粉，還有哪些國家？"],["林副署長金富：跟委員報告，這一次查獲疑似的案件，我剛剛報告，已經在確認中，大概明天會有結果，今天查獲印度疑似的這一批是去年進來的，今年設的都已經設了，只是說之前設的沒有達到百分之百逐批……"],["王委員育敏：所以表示有漏網之魚流入市場，對不對？"],["林副署長金富：有可能，因為那一批是去年進來，不是今年……"],["王委員育敏：我問你一個問題，蘇丹紅可以衍生的、添加的到底有哪一些的調味粉？之前說是辣椒粉，現在連薑黃粉也可以，到底還有什麼種類？"],["林副署長金富：跟委員報告，目前國際警訊上面有的我們都已經設了，包括辣椒粉、咖哩粉這些都有，我們是把過去10年國際上曾經檢出疑似有蘇丹色素違規的項目在邊境都設立查驗。當然一開始是百分之百查驗，驗了大概半年多以後，結果都沒有發現有的案例，我們就回歸到風險管理。至於這一次，印度確實在當時年初的時候，國內沒有發現，國際也沒有，所以我們是沒有拉到最高的百分之百，這一次在後市場發現，我們就回饋到邊境，從明天開始就會百分之百檢驗。"],["王委員育敏：明天開始百分之百抽驗，那我問你，現在已經在市場上的你還有繼續抽樣嗎？我高度懷疑這是之前流進來的，因為之前沒有百分之百，而流進來的會不會不只濟生這一家？其實薑黃粉非常多，如果有別的廠商陸續進口，你們要怎麼清查？上次你們清辣椒粉的時候，是針對每一批去回溯，那這次薑黃粉部分，你們的作法是什麼？"],["林副署長金富：跟委員報告，只要一確定是薑黃粉的話，我們就會比照今年年初的作法全面清查，只要後市場還在效期內的我們都會去清查，比照年初的作法。"],["王委員育敏：你們多久會完成這項工作？"],["林副署長金富：其實蘇丹色素在今年發生以來，邊境是由食藥署負責，而後市場部分，衛生局都沒有停、持續在查。"],["王委員育敏：持續在查？"],["林副署長金富：對，沒有停，所以才會發現這一批……"],["王委員育敏：但這也代表說沒有斷，就是你們的查驗雖然沒有停，但你們當時信誓旦旦表示整個市場都很乾淨了，外面的部分也阻絕於境外，結果卻破功，現在看起來就不是這麼回事。所以我要求食藥署在這件事情上，查緝的力道還是要加強，包括抽驗的比率要再增加，因為這關乎食安，要不然你們的保證大家就沒有信心，你們上半年信誓旦旦保證，現在又爆出，而且數量還蠻龐大的，你說五千多件，現在只下架一千多件，很多可能都已經流入市場，所以在食安部分，雖然部長你剛上任，但我希望食安問題你要等同重視……"],["邱部長泰源：當然，當然。"],["王委員育敏：這個事情，我覺得它在整個市場是沒有真正斷掉，所以你們的敏感度應該要更高。"],["邱部長泰源：今年應該是完全阻絕了，那就是可能……"],["林副署長金富：邊境都百分之百有阻絕住，沒有進來，這一批是去年進來的。"],["王委員育敏：漏網之魚嘛！代表你們說市場要清空，其實是沒有完全清空，這是食安問題，這個部分我要求你們要好好徹查，好不好？","接下來我要問的是有關於精神病患相關資源量能的問題。部長你看一下，現在領有精障手冊者總共有11萬餘人，你們說要讓病友回歸社區，這很好，但是看看整體服務量能，你們現在才服務了2,718人，服務率只有2%多，像嘉義縣這種資源高度匱乏的地方，連一家在地協會都沒有，還要靠嘉義市協助，在這樣的情況下，你說所有的服務要回歸社區，然後要做得很好，請問怎麼做？你們基本的服務量能完全不夠，而且還有縣市資源落差的問題，像嘉義縣這樣地方連協會都沒有，請問要怎麼提供服務？"],["邱部長泰源：請司長回答。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：謝謝委員關切，有關社區精神病人服務資源相對不足這一塊，其實我們除了爭取經費補助民間團體，以增加精神病人社區支持資源之外，也關切到能夠提供這樣服務的團體並不多，所以透過公彩回饋金，我們有一個團體培力計畫，針對一些目前沒有提供精神病人社區支持服務的團體，希望藉由我們的培力，讓他們也可以提供這種服務，所以我們是同步在進行，一方面培力……"],["王委員育敏：目前響應的有多少人？你們有沒有針對資源匱乏區，像我舉例的連一家都沒有的嘉義縣，你們有重點培養嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：有的，因為我們目前……"],["王委員育敏：嘉義縣目前培養出幾家？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：嘉義縣目前有兩家，都是嘉義市康復之友協會提供的兩個方案，但是我們會持續來做其他的……"],["王委員育敏：這樣的量能顯然是不夠的，嘉義縣就有超過萬名的精神病友。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是，是，的確是不夠。"],["王委員育敏：針對這種極度匱乏的區域，我要知道你們的強化措施是什麼？其實有一些資源充足的縣市，譬如首都就有很多團體、很多資源，他們就可以得到很好的照顧；但像嘉義縣資源這麼匱乏的地方，顯然就是有需求，但卻沒有人可以來服務，你們要怎麼去平衡這樣的城鄉落差？這個可能是重點。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是，沒有錯，其實我們做團體培力並不是只是補助經費給團體、請他們來做這件事情，我們有一個專門的團隊去輔導這些團體來做這樣的服務。"],["王委員育敏：好，因為時間的關係，部長，我要求衛福部必須去盤點，我今天已經把問題具體指出來了，像嘉義縣就是嚴重資源匱乏的地方，連一家服務的協會都沒有……"],["邱部長泰源：是，這的確是要加強，要加強。"],["王委員育敏：對，你們要去盤點，你說你們有輔導計畫，我要求要看到輔導的成效，而且服務的量能要有效的成長跟提供，要不然我覺得對於在嘉義縣的這些精神病友而言，是非常不公平的，你們計畫寫得很好看，但他們卻得不到資源，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：瞭解。"],["王委員育敏：一個月之後，可不可以把你們具體想要改善的計畫給本席，好不好？怎麼樣去提升？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["王委員育敏：可以？好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","繼續我們請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156431","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408b0e8ecdb87967524cdd5a1250ef41c283f5630ed0db2545756c4274c4566c6a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"12:27:46 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案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":195.699,"end":210.827,"text":"根委員報告,我們中選會是辦理選務的一個獨立機關我們各種投票的辦理都是依照不管是選罷法或者是公投法所規定的程序還有規定來做進行"},{"start":211.445,"end":230.98,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等"},{"start":236.607,"end":241.271,"text":"委員你好,謝謝你的提供。委員長,我看你都很小心。主委,我們現在來討論一下,我這段時間在地方上,經常聽到的事情。其實,把我歡迎的人,這些人過去你們在訓練做館長的時候,這些人也是行李都不錯,大家都接受得不錯。因為這個選舉法修正這個排黑條款,"},{"start":264.231,"end":267.294,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":280.106,"end":292.832,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修正�"},{"start":302.557,"end":304.698,"text":"不清楚自己是否具有參選資格的問題,可說是全國性的一個通案。反而大多數人想參選的人都不是很硬的。有一些人說:「我以前我小時候沒有換衣服,那時候我會換的衣服有可能卡到我們的選舉條款,但是我現在新年了,"},{"start":326.684,"end":337.571,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文�"},{"start":353.661,"end":355.742,"text":"三、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":375.633,"end":376.975,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":391.461,"end":391.922,"text":"三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具"},{"start":410.177,"end":416.019,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":436.828,"end":437.269,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":456.809,"end":457.229,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":478.012,"end":480.213,"text":"案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":501.638,"end":503.899,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員"},{"start":525.009,"end":534.093,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條條文修"},{"start":554.881,"end":556.97,"text":"或是說人過去所犯的錯就已經"},{"start":559.591,"end":562.593,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":589.711,"end":590.352,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":610.874,"end":620.437,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":638.363,"end":651.526,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":666.894,"end":667.215,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1136,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（12時27分）感謝主席，我請謝主任秘書。"],["主席：請主任秘書。"],["丁委員學忠：讓主委休息一下，喝個茶。"],["謝主任秘書美玲：委員好！"],["丁委員學忠：主秘，你聽了一個早上，針對這個公投修正草案，剛才有委員提到，我們公民投票應該在成立後1個月到6個月內舉行投票，且應該與大選同時舉行，就是恢復到以前公投綁大選的部分，恢復到以前貴黨說的要還權於民，請問主秘有什麼看法？"],["謝主任秘書美玲：跟委員報告，在今天我們的這個審查報告裡面有提到，中選會是認為公投是對事的投票，選舉是對人的投票，基於避免民眾的混淆，我們還是認為公投和選舉應該合併來辦理……分開來辦理。"],["丁委員學忠：你有說合併了。"],["謝主任秘書美玲：分開來辦理。"],["丁委員學忠：我相信你第一次說的話。我們臺灣的民主制度是一件很值得驕傲的事情，我們看到在我們民主發展當中，過去大大小小的選舉都讓全國大眾認為是不方便的，且浪費資源，所以後來修改成現行2年1次大選的機制，而公投也很重要，這是人民的權利之一，但是在我們內政部的回應中，好像把公投和大選脫鉤認為是在保障人民權利的行為，這個看法我比較不瞭解，主秘對這個看法怎樣？"],["謝主任秘書美玲：我們中選會還是再重申，基於辦理選務的立場，我們還是認為公投跟選舉應該分別舉行，主要的原因還是在於選務有我們的量能，我們認為分開舉行的話，包括選舉跟公投都比較能夠順遂辦理，而且能夠真實地反映民眾投票的意願跟意志。"],["丁委員學忠：其實分開舉行投票意願會比較低，這是事實，我們都說事實面的東西，當然，貴黨之前在做在野黨的時候，那時候就沒有經費，由於資源的限制就希望公投要綁大選來進行，但是現在執政之後把公投跟大選分開，在分開之後，以公投那麼低的投票率，投出來的結果，通過的法案難道不會被人認為代表性比較不足嗎？"],["謝主任秘書美玲：跟委員報告，我們中選會是辦理選務的一個獨立機關，我們各種投票的辦理都是依照選罷法或者是公投法所規定的程序還有規定來進行，法律這樣子定，中選會就依照這樣子來執行。"],["丁委員學忠：好，沒關係，我知道主秘講得很制式啦！請主秘休息，我請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["丁委員學忠：剛才有沒有喝茶？"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。謝謝你的體諒。"],["丁委員學忠：有喝茶吧！我看你聲音都啞了，主委，我們現在來討論一下這段時間我在地方上常常聽到的一件事情，其實跟我反映的人，過去你在雲林當縣長的時候，這些人也是都跟你接觸得不錯。他們說選罷法修正排黑條款，擴大不能參選的範圍，甚至參選的範圍已經不是以一般法律知識就有辦法了解他們是否有辦法參選。去年這個選罷法的修法，大家都知道比較倉促，所以這一屆的立委選舉，在臺南、屏東、苗栗等等的地方就都有候選人登記、繳完保證金之後，被中選會判定資格不符，不能參選。不清楚自己是不是具有參選資格的這個問題可以說是全國性的一個通案，範圍大到讓連想要參選的人都不是很確定，有一些人說，以前他在未成年時犯的案子有可能去卡到排黑條款，但是他現在成年了，那個案子不知道有沒有銷掉，不知道可不可以選，很多人有這些疑慮。","在這裡我還是要拜託主委，以我們現行的制度，登記為候選人完成之後才由選委會確定，如果登記參選的人最後被中選會刪除資格，地方的選舉有很多的首長，譬如里長、鄉鎮長這類的，有可能是兩個人一對一的參選而已，他們不知道他們有沒有符合參選的資格，但是等中選會審查的時候是要登記完、繳完保證金之後，才會通知他可不可以參選、有沒有符合，造成地方的困擾。突然說你不能選，那剛好一個選，還是兩個都不能選，這樣要怎麼辦？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會審查候選人的資格有一定的程序，而且是根據三讀通過的選罷法相關規定，所以我們是按照法律、按照程序來做審查。剛才委員所提的，等到我們審查完了，跟他說結果，你就不行，造成一個人參選，所以我們覺得可能要在登記之前，因為法律已經公告了，清清楚楚在那個地方，有心要參選的人必須要弄清楚法律相關的規定。"],["丁委員學忠：我有一個建議跟主委建議一下，既然我們的法律已經定了，大家都要去遵守，剛才我所說的那個參選資格的模糊空間，如果在登記完成之後才確認參選資格，可能會讓參選人的權利受損，是否可以由中選會設置一個網站，把是否可以參選的資格，或是這個排黑條款裡面規定不能參選的資格，列在那個網站，讓人自行去查詢，查詢之後就知道他有沒有辦法參選。否則，我們前縣長、主委，你也在基層走過，你也知道，很多過去年輕的時候個性比較放蕩，有犯什麼案子，剛好符合這個排黑條款，但是他是在小時候犯案，也受到法律的制裁，他都受到該負的司法責任，但是他長大成年之後對社會服務公益有興趣，而且對於藉選舉來服務人民也有興趣，但是剛好因為卡到這個排黑條款，造成他不能參選。所以我們認為，我們在地方很多長輩在說，那些人也都跟主委很好，這些長輩說真的有比較硬一點啦！這個不是說我們說這樣就是這樣，可能也是要透過中選會內部自己去評估，上一次修選舉法排黑條款列下去之後，是不是認為這樣有適用，還是說人家過去所犯的錯，司法責任都已經負了，我們是不是要還給他們參政的權利？這是我一個建議。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員，對法律的規定、資訊的公開，我們提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頻繁啦所以感謝您對馬祖人民的我也感佩啦真的是對馬祖人民部長以前跟我在立法院是我們是鄰居啦我們感情非常好沒有因為黨派的問題嘛部長我也拜託好不好這個640間一定要幫我完成任務第一個第二個長照師的床位啊病床啊"},{"start":562.632,"end":568.896,"text":"臨床的坪數還有經費,最近要審查了再看。我們會盡量來溝通來爭取。部長,祝你身體健康、精神愉快。謝謝。謝謝委員。好,謝謝主席。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":949,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時19分）謝謝主席，是不是請部長？"],["主席：部長，請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長好。「你是我的兄弟」這首歌你會不會唱？「你是我的兄弟」我講這句話是希望部長把我們馬祖的每一個鄉親都當作你的親人。"],["邱部長泰源：我一向都是這種情懷。"],["陳委員雪生：因為早上林淑芬委員質詢到急診室的狀況，我也非常感慨，我弟弟的小孩肺發炎去臺灣醫院，暫留了多少天你知道嗎？7天，7天才進入病房。"],["邱部長泰源：小孩子……"],["陳委員雪生：因為你當部長，我不好意思再麻煩你，所以我們也不想用特權嘛！另外我要請問部長，790切的斷層掃描你做過沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：640切。"],["陳委員雪生：640啊？你知道為什麼我跟你講790嗎？你看馬祖是落後地區嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：什麼？"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖是不是落後地區？"],["邱部長泰源：馬祖絕對不是落後地區。"],["陳委員雪生：不是嘛！我們做完150切的電腦斷層，然後拿過來給醫生看，模糊不清、不清楚，再做一次，做了多少？做640切，兩個加起來不是790切嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是這樣子啊！"],["陳委員雪生：我們做X光，照一次那個輻射就已經不得了了，你看做多少次？所以部長，我想之前跟你討論過。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員雪生：640切的電腦斷層給我們一部，好不好？你看所有臺灣的部立醫院有150切的嗎？你家人去買東西都是買最好的電器用品嘛！怎麼會去買最爛的呢？現在臺灣醫學已經發達到這種地步了，是不是？所以我昨天詢問我們衛生局，他說委員會在討論。你告訴你的委員會，還要討論什麼，我不知道。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們已經收到醫院這邊的文，我們會用……"],["陳委員雪生：收到文沒有用啊！你要答應我啊！好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：醫發基金怎麼處理？"],["郭專門委員威中：因為我們通常……跟委員報告，要動用醫發基金的話，我們有一個醫發基金審議委員會，我們目前已經在排委員的可出席時間，預計在11月底。"],["陳委員雪生：您是司長嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：我是專門委員。"],["陳委員雪生：我們去跟你們什麼委員會討論事情，太遙遠了啦！你知道嗎？我也不曉得你們成員是誰……"],["邱部長泰源：因為它必須要有一個預算的來源啊！"],["陳委員雪生：我問我的兄弟，邱部長比較快啦！你知道嗎？預算來源……全國的部立醫院有150切的嗎？你講給我聽！為什麼我們要……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們最近才去落成澎湖醫院，它是128切。"],["陳委員雪生：128？該淘汰了！"],["邱部長泰源：新的喔！"],["陳委員雪生：我找楊曜委員來質詢你喔！"],["邱部長泰源：楊曜委員去那邊很高興，因為它配合AI，所以其實是非常地清楚，然後效果也非常好。是新的喔！它已經換掉原來是64切的嘛！因為它的價錢其實是……"],["陳委員雪生：沒關係，我改天找楊曜委員質詢你，他一定也會要一個640切的，你放心。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題、沒問題，因為他去看了以後覺得很滿意。"],["陳委員雪生：很滿意噢？"],["邱部長泰源：就是……"],["陳委員雪生：你改天看病跑到馬祖來看，我保證你做790切的，我跟你講。"],["邱部長泰源：那個……馬祖現在的是幾切？"],["陳委員雪生：150切！"],["邱部長泰源：150切看幾年……"],["陳委員雪生：已經十幾年了。"],["邱部長泰源：第六期，那個……"],["主席：我插個嘴，一般是64切再來是128切。"],["陳委員雪生：我不跟你辯，你640切要給我，好不好？"],["主席：部長，你就答應他，拍胸脯，OK！這樣就好了。"],["陳委員雪生：不然我講你是我兄弟幹什麼？我們兩個也像啊！你的命比較好當部長……"],["邱部長泰源：如果640切要164切的兩倍多，要8,000萬……"],["陳委員雪生：不要、不要，就要640切，你也答應我了……"],["邱部長泰源：我不曉得各個醫院有沒有，即使在臺灣的醫院恐怕也……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我再跟你講，賴總統到金門去，他說我們對離島居民的醫療一定要提升，我們有緊急後送，金門現在有部立醫院，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員雪生：它緊急醫療後送的人員差不多是我們的十倍，送得更多，我們用直昇機送，它用運輸機C-130送，整個裡面都是，所以部立醫院有部立醫院的水準。民進黨的連江縣黨部提出來說要部立醫院，部長，你的看法怎樣？要不要給我們一個部立醫院？"],["邱部長泰源：這個問題以前討論過，後來縣政府方面也不放掉，它還是要縣立醫院……"],["陳委員雪生：誰不放掉？"],["邱部長泰源：縣政府那邊……"],["陳委員雪生：不會啊！如果給我部立醫院，給我30億、50億，多一個神經內科、神經外科、心臟內科、心臟外科，多10個醫生……"],["邱部長泰源：你是說額外，還是把金門醫院改制成部立醫院嗎？還是另外？"],["陳委員雪生：金門早就部立啦，澎湖也部立啊……"],["邱部長泰源：我說錯了，是連江啦……"],["陳委員雪生：我們馬祖是縣立啊！"],["邱部長泰源：縣立啦！"],["陳委員雪生：你要改部立嗎？我跟你評估，至少30億跑不掉，你要蓋病床、病房設備，然後神經內科、神經外科、心臟內科、心臟外科這些通通都要配備，當然我們人數很少啦，一個月可能一、兩個人吧，這些醫生平常也可以給他一點福利，去釣魚啊，他可以去釣魚，是不是這樣？事實上就如此嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：我到馬祖去巡迴醫療都順便打網球，馬祖的地方還可以打網球……"],["陳委員雪生：對啊，所以是不是達到需要成立部立醫院是值得討論的，部長，你重視這個問題，有機會部裡面去討論一下，好不好？如果成立部立醫院，我雙手雙腳贊成，我怎麼會不要呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我跟委員報告，部立醫院所有的醫療人員都是我的好朋友啦！"],["陳委員雪生：對啊。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們都很清楚他們的努力，有時候還要到其他的島去做很多的公共衛生、各方面的醫療，真的令人非常感佩。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，馬祖既然那麼落後，你稍微提升一下醫療的等級嘛，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們一定遵守當時我們一起在討論……"],["陳委員雪生：今天長照司有沒有來？我不知道。"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，今天的主題剛好……"],["陳委員雪生：沒關係，我們要蓋4,900坪的土地，你們答應給我們100床，我們的造價跟臺灣的建築費用……醫院算特殊建築，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["陳委員雪生：我們一坪要27萬，臺灣只要十幾萬，一坪27萬還沒有人要蓋。在臺灣這邊還有黑道的回扣、白道的回扣，我們連回扣都沒有，縣長還要去跪求他們來蓋，沒有人要來蓋呀，缺工、缺料，延遲完成驗收的風險太大、太大了，所以他們商人要精打細算，一坪要27萬，你們現在講說一坪多少錢？你們說一坪十幾萬，給我們100間，只給我們4億，關於100床的面積，我們的需求是一個床要38坪，你們長照司提出來說一床27坪，這個差距很大耶，部長，是不是請你特別重視一下？因為時間的關係……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們一定把你所有的需求……相關的團隊再度針對你現在提出來的好好地來研究……"],["陳委員雪生：我們的交情，我不會擔心啦，我是擔心什麼呢？你回去以後就把我忘了。"],["邱部長泰源：永遠不會忘記、永遠不會忘記，我當了你的鄰居八年，沒有聞到你的體味，聞到你的煙味，是不是……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有、沒有，這裡也不能講這個吧！我最近都在適當的場所……"],["邱部長泰源：對啦，就是說其實我們接觸得非常頻繁，所以感謝您對馬祖人民的照顧，我也感佩啦，真的是對馬祖人民很照顧。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，嚴格來說，在立法院我們是鄰居啦，我們感情非常好，沒有因為黨派的問題嘛，部長，我也拜託，好不好？640切，一定要幫我完成任務，這是第一個；第二個，長照司的床位、病床，病床的坪數還有經費，最近要審查了，大概……"],["邱部長泰源：我們會儘量來溝通、來爭取。"],["陳委員雪生：請你再提醒他們一下，好不好？部長，我祝你身體健康、精神愉快，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳雪生委員，真的，馬祖真的是很需要啦，我有去過好幾次，那邊真的是條件不好。部長，你就答應他就好了，你是在？"],["邱部長泰源：我不知道有沒有錢，有錢當然沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：不要把我忘了。"],["主席：好，我們繼續請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156429","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156429","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4088663c0a22df7cb32cdd5a1250ef41c283f5630ed0db254575dc74b8a2e1778a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:09:33 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"人跟事絕對不能混淆,你們這些人在亂,就你們這些人在亂,人跟事怎麼可以混淆?但我在2020我大民進黨說人跟事可以混在一起,就可以混在一起啊!然後呢,公投並大選,公投並大選是不能到洪水猛瘦的啊,一定要支持的啊,陳其邁名言啊!結果民進黨2018輸了,公投就跟大選拆開來了。"},{"start":888.058,"end":889.761,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員吳秉叡等19人擬具"},{"start":899.383,"end":922.212,"text":"把公投的一隻腳砍斷公投倒了2021年因為投票率過低沒有一樣公投過得了今天就有一個民進黨的官員在跟你講說哈哈哈哈跟你講嘛腳斷一隻站不起來你看嘛躺在那個地方躺不起來變成說今天拿這個藉口來跟我講說我們不可以再把公投併回大選更重要是什麼很抱歉啦人民沒有站在你們這一邊"},{"start":926.26,"end":954.481,"text":"今天昨天新國會智庫委託趨勢民調公司做出來民調非常清楚66%的選民是主張公投並大選我想主委對你很好因為我們那個新國會還做了一個民調喔因為你一直講說是公投並大選造成選務的問題嘛所以就兩個選項開放讓民眾回答到底是中選會賴清德講的今天中選會做不好還是說今天是一個公投並大選"},{"start":955.482,"end":969.708,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":983.677,"end":989.079,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條"},{"start":1011.004,"end":1012.525,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":902,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時9分）有請主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主委，你剛剛在詢答時說公投不能併大選，其中原因之一是事跟人不可以混在一起投。"],["李主任委員進勇：會模糊焦點。"],["羅委員智強：所以你反對事跟人在一起投。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["羅委員智強：你再講一遍，你反對事跟人在一起投。"],["李主任委員進勇：我已經講清楚了。"],["羅委員智強：講清楚了？"],["李主任委員進勇：對啊！不必再講一遍。"],["羅委員智強：非常感謝你啊！請教您，2022年18歲公民投票權的修憲案，是事還是人？"],["李主任委員進勇：那個程序跟一般的公投案……"],["羅委員智強：是事還是人？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟一般的公投案是不一樣的。"],["羅委員智強：就是事。"],["李主任委員進勇：是事沒有錯，那是根據憲法……"],["羅委員智強：請問選臺北市長、選臺中市長、選桃園市長，選的是事還是人？"],["李主任委員進勇：選舉的攻防……"],["羅委員智強：選的是事還是人？"],["李主任委員進勇：非常非常地複雜。"],["羅委員智強：選的是事還是人？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是併同公投的話，會發生議題重疊或模糊……"],["羅委員智強：有些問題簡單到你不敢回答，叫心虛！選的叫人。"],["李主任委員進勇：我光明正大站在這個地方，無所謂的心虛問題。"],["羅委員智強：我現在想請問你下一個問題，當初提出18歲公民修憲要求併大選的，就是民進黨吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：我不知道是哪一個黨……"],["羅委員智強：就是民進黨啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我要按照憲法的規定、按照公民投票法的規定……"],["羅委員智強：哈哈哈……"],["李主任委員進勇：也根據立法院的程序……"],["羅委員智強：你再拗吧！你再拗吧！你再自己打臉自己吧！民進黨在2019年就是用你的論點說事怎麼可以跟人混淆，然後就把公投、大選拆開了。"],["李主任委員進勇：那不是大院通過的法律嗎？"],["羅委員智強：然後等到2022年……"],["李主任委員進勇：那是大院通過的法律。"],["羅委員智強：這是民進黨多數暴力通過的法律！"],["李主任委員進勇：對啊！對啊！"],["羅委員智強：對，沒錯啊！我跟你講邏輯問題，你邏輯死啊！今天到了2022年，民進黨又突然復活了，哎呀！修憲公投這是事，為了提高投票率，然後我要跟所謂的地方選舉綁在一起。又可以了！今天可以，明天不可以；今天不可以，明天可以！就是今天中選會李進勇主委你在這邊示範的反反覆覆！"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，我可不可以說明一下？"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦！我告訴你……"],["李主任委員進勇：一般的公投跟……"],["羅委員智強：你不要再區分一般公投，一般公投就不叫事……"],["李主任委員進勇：跟憲法的公投……"],["羅委員智強：憲法的公投就不叫事……"],["李主任委員進勇：憲法的公投，它的程序跟一般的公投完全不一樣。所以……"],["羅委員智強：你少來這一套！"],["李主任委員進勇：脫鉤跟一般的……"],["羅委員智強：所以照你的標準，就是不可以事跟人混淆。","我問你第二題，到現在為止我聽了一肚子火，你們中選會就推諉！"],["李主任委員進勇：請息怒、請息怒。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講……"],["李主任委員進勇：比較能講得清楚。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴主委，沒辦法，你真的是很激怒人。我跟你講，明明就是中選會事前沒有規劃好，事中……"],["李主任委員進勇：不只是我激怒……"],["羅委員智強：你聽我講完。"],["李主任委員進勇：因為經常委員……"],["羅委員智強：你先聽我把問題問完。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["羅委員智強：好好聽。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員經常都是講很大聲的。"],["羅委員智強：很重要、很重要，請你好好聽。明明就是中選會你事前沒有規劃好，然後在事中發現狀況也沒辦法有效因應排除，結果你推給公投綁大選，合理嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們……"],["羅委員智強：是不是中選會沒有做好規劃，也沒有做好因應？"],["李主任委員進勇：你怪罪我們在2018沒有做好規劃，沒有做好因應，我都承認。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我都承認。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：事後我們有深入地檢討，包括大院通過的法律修正案……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你當然要承認。"],["李主任委員進勇：都是檢討之後所提出來具體而有效的方案。"],["羅委員智強：李主委，你當然要承認、你當然要承認。"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有推……"],["羅委員智強：這是賴清德總統賞你的耳光啦！你能不承認嗎？這句話不是羅智強講的。中選會事前未能規劃周延，事後未能有效因應並予排除，造成國人不便。"],["李主任委員進勇：事後……"],["羅委員智強：「陳英鈐主委雖已請辭負責」，請中選會記取教訓，「聽取社會各界意見，就此次選務工作的執行面與法規面，徹底檢討……儘速修法。」、「中選會研提未來公投採『電子投票』，並非網路投票的可能性，也請國發會與相關部會協助」。我跟你講，我最佩服中選會的是什麼？賴清德就跟你講，你事前規劃得不好，你事中發生狀況無能因應，然後要你檢討。結果中選會檢討出來的，我看到了，超快的，2019年直接把公投併大選幹掉最快！你們的檢討就是把公投併大選幹掉！"],["李主任委員進勇：2019年公投法的修改不是大院通過的嗎？"],["羅委員智強：你民進黨多數，也要推給大院！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是大院通過的嗎？"],["羅委員智強：國民黨是反對的！"],["李主任委員進勇：那一樣，是立法院的一個決議，不是嗎？"],["羅委員智強：那現在立法院就是要修啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：修，大家可以辯論、大家可以辯論。"],["羅委員智強：你少來講這些，你剛才講的所有理由都是在打臉以前的民進黨。沒關係，我再講下一個，我要跟你講……"],["李主任委員進勇：是有關係，還是要講清楚，不是沒關係。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦！照你的邏輯啦……"],["李主任委員進勇：要講清楚。"],["羅委員智強：照你的邏輯……我知道啦！你們辛苦啦！很辛苦。"],["李主任委員進勇：講清楚，不辛苦……"],["羅委員智強：主委很辛苦。"],["李主任委員進勇：辛苦應該的。"],["羅委員智強：辦總統大選也非常辛苦，早上投票投到下午！開票開到晚上耶！很辛苦哇！這麼辛苦的事情，這樣子啦！我給你建議，總統大選廢掉，或者40年辦一次，讓賴清德一直當下去，好不好啊？要不要給我掌聲鼓勵一下？我擁戴賴清德大總統當40年總統，因為辦選舉太麻煩了啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是憲法的問題嗎？"],["羅委員智強：太麻煩！"],["李主任委員進勇：這是憲法的……"],["羅委員智強：照你的邏輯啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：憲法的問題要在修憲提出……"],["羅委員智強：選務，你今天跟我講的是公投的選務，你的理由，我不是跟你講立法，立法是大家討論，我講的是你剛剛的理由荒腔走板到無法接受！"],["李主任委員進勇：你又不讓我講。"],["羅委員智強：中選會事前未能規劃周延，事中未能有效因應加以排除。"],["李主任委員進勇：那個承認了，我剛剛承認了，已經第三次了。"],["羅委員智強：這是賴清德總統賞給你李進勇的耳光，你承認也沒有用！"],["李主任委員進勇：對我們選務的指教批評……"],["羅委員智強：結果你的臉不痛……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們都應該虛心地檢討、接受。"],["羅委員智強：你臉不痛啊？你臉痛不痛？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有做深入的檢討跟改進，所以才會……"],["羅委員智強：你的檢討改進我看到啦！就把公投幹掉啊……"],["李主任委員進勇：所以才會從2020年開始選務非常地順利。"],["羅委員智強：下一個問題，我看到一個標題：「提公投綁大選  李進勇：不可！2021年公投已否決此提議」。是不是你講的？"],["李主任委員進勇：我有講。"],["羅委員智強：你講的喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：我講的，是。"],["羅委員智強：2021年公投沒有通過，最重要的原因就是投票率過低，投同意票，以公投綁大選來講，投同意票是百分之多少？20%，沒錯吧？請問現在門檻是多少？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果把公投沒有過完全歸罪於所謂的投票率過低的話，那這個提議的人都沒有盡到責任啊！"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫提議人沒盡到責任？"],["李主任委員進勇：提議人，就是議題設定的問題。"],["羅委員智強：公投跟大選併在一起，投票率就會提高，公投法第二十九條規定，公投沒有通過，就是因為有一個門檻叫25%門檻，沒錯吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：同樣選舉，沒有選上就怪投票率低，這也是不對的……"],["羅委員智強：主委，我問你是非問題喔！到現在為止你就跟我東扯西扯。法律規定是25%的門檻，是不是嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：那是……"],["羅委員智強：不是，那你告訴我啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：是、是。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：是的、是的。"],["羅委員智強：好，那我想請教，因為它沒有達到25%門檻，這就是民進黨修惡公投法帶來的結果，這個惡果導致2023年公投年，你這個惡果導致什麼？第一個，投票率下降……"],["李主任委員進勇：為什麼不可能是民眾不認同？"],["羅委員智強：所以沒有一個公投通過。"],["李主任委員進勇：為什麼不可能是民眾不認同？"],["羅委員智強：我問題問完……"],["李主任委員進勇：這有可能啊！"],["羅委員智強：你不要在我講話、在問問題的時候插嘴，好不好？我先把我的問題問完，你聽完再回答。"],["李主任委員進勇：希望能夠給我時間……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，這就是民進黨修惡公投法，導致今天2021年的公投投票率下降，沒有辦法達到25%門檻。不要忘了，當年民進黨主張公投併大選，是因為認為公投大選拆開之後投票率過低，就沒有公投會過了。而後面導致更嚴重的後果，因為大家知道投票率會太低，公投不會過，請問你2023年剩下多少件公投提案通過？你告訴我啊！你是中選會主委，你會不知道！"],["李主任委員進勇：到現在為止沒有。"],["羅委員智強：零啦！零啦！公投從此被你們封殺、閹割！就是因為公投投票率低……"],["李主任委員進勇：那是提案沒有……"],["羅委員智強：提案？你剛剛怪罪了提案人。"],["李主任委員進勇：不符合公投法的規定。提案不符合公投法的規定，當然它就不可能成立。"],["羅委員智強：提案人今天就是預言到你今天會把責任推給他……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，你不能夠因為他提案不符合規定，就怪罪公投法的修改……"],["羅委員智強：我要講，我來講問題！我跟你講，提案人今天就預言……"],["李主任委員進勇：因果不是這樣扯的。"],["羅委員智強：等我講話好不好啊？你不要一直插嘴，當然我知道大法官在護你們嘛！你們反質詢、插嘴沒關係，也沒責任！"],["李主任委員進勇：你又不讓我講話，沒有講話的餘地就不能夠有交集。"],["羅委員智強：今天提案人就是預言到，偉大的李進勇在這邊會把責任推給提案人……"],["李主任委員進勇：我很卑微……"],["羅委員智強：接下來發現提案也不會過，就沒有人提案啦！這就是民進黨的陽謀，民進黨就用這種方式把公投閹割掉。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，我都看不出因果……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，李進勇你的邏輯很簡單……"],["李主任委員進勇：我一點都看不出因果。"],["羅委員智強：我直接講給你聽，你的邏輯很簡單，你的邏輯是什麼？今天有個人，我們要有一個測試，必須這個人要有兩隻腳，看他能站多久。結果中選會過來砍掉他一隻腳，接下來跟我笑說：你看他站不起來。我對了吧！他站不起來啦！當你公投、大選把公投砍掉一隻腳，你回頭跟我講：你看嘛！2021你也沒過嘛！他是腳被砍斷才站不起來的。"],["李主任委員進勇：所有的手術……"],["羅委員智強：他在2018年跟以前不同，如果兩隻腳都還在的時候，他是站得起來的。"],["李主任委員進勇：所有的手術都是立法院開的刀。"],["羅委員智強：你不要再插我的話，謝謝你、感謝！拜託你，我知道你官威很大，你了不起！"],["李主任委員進勇：我不敢、不敢！"],["羅委員智強：沒有，你敢得很！"],["李主任委員進勇：我要接受質詢的。"],["羅委員智強：你敢得很！第二個更重要的。我剛剛已經反駁你第一個，什麼叫做2021年公投沒通過？你斷了它的腳，它當然沒通過。我再講第二個，第二個更可惡、更厲害……"],["李主任委員進勇：我可以講一句話嗎？"],["羅委員智強：是我……"],["李主任委員進勇：公投法的修改不是我去動的，是立法院動的。"],["羅委員智強：你又推給民進黨的立委啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：是立法院。"],["羅委員智強：你又推給民進黨的立委啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院。"],["羅委員智強：你又推給民進黨的立委啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院。"],["羅委員智強：立法院誰多數？"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院通過的。"],["羅委員智強：立法院誰多數？"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院通過的。"],["羅委員智強：立法院誰多數？"],["李主任委員進勇：我不管誰通過、誰多數。"],["羅委員智強：你不管誰通過、誰多數，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院通過的法律。"],["羅委員智強：睜眼說瞎話的能力，李進勇，你第一名！立法院民進黨多數暴力通過，幹掉蔡同榮一輩子的理想，今天你站在這邊，我告訴你，我很佩服你，我佩服你啊……"],["李主任委員進勇：我按照立法院通過的法律來執行。"],["羅委員智強：我佩服你啊！今天你對得起蔡同榮我佩服你！","我講第二個更重要的，更重要的是什麼？你官威好大啊！你現在跟我講不可以提，因為2021年這個腳斷的公投沒通過，所以今天不可以提，你官威真的很大耶！我問你，公投法第三十二條第一項的規定是什麼？我唸給你聽：主管機關公告公民投票之結果起2年內，不得就同一事項重行提出。到現在過3年了，我先不講，第一個，我不知道你到底是法盲還是數學盲，我先講法盲，公投不通過，當時的設計是認為它沒有到一個程度，所以它的法律效果是不能就同一事項重提公投，沒錯吧！","不會吧！中選會主委，你法盲到這種程度！"],["李主任委員進勇：我可以講了，是嗎？我不知道你什麼時候讓我講……"],["羅委員智強：你頓了5秒鐘，我以為你答不出來，對不起！對不起！對不起！原來你答得出來。"],["李主任委員進勇：2年以內不能夠重提。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！你還要頓5秒，這是你主管的法耶！它是公投不能再提出不是修法不能提出……"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有說修法不能提出……"],["羅委員智強：這是法律一，第二個，我要告訴……"],["李主任委員進勇：我並沒有這樣子講，委員。"],["羅委員智強：那你還講不可？"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有講不可啊！"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛前面講你又要反……"],["李主任委員進勇：66%可以做參考，2021年的公投結果也可以做參考。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你不當法律盲，你也不要當數學盲啊！明明寫2年，你現在跟我講不可什麼意思？明明寫2年，現在已經三年多了啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有說不可啊！"],["羅委員智強：我跟你溝通好累喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：是喔！我……"],["羅委員智強：你把你前面的東西全部否定掉，我到底要相信哪一個李進勇啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：所以我們對焦……"],["羅委員智強：人跟事，你現在也跟我翻，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：不好意思，我們對焦比較對不攏。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係。我要跟主委說，今天你們民進黨真的是我也是佩服啦！公投併大選，你也是民進黨的一員，曾經是，你也是民進黨重要的大老，對不對？沒錯吧！"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有那麼老。"],["羅委員智強：什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有那麼老。"],["羅委員智強：對，你很年輕，希望你年輕有智慧。我要跟你說一句話，今天公投併大選最早提出來的是哪個政黨，你總不會不知道吧！"],["李主任委員進勇：我站在這個位置上，我是超出黨派以外。"],["羅委員智強：在這個位置上就是可以把自己過去記憶全部斷光光的，欣賞！"],["李主任委員進勇：委員難道不希望我是獨立超出黨派以外嗎？"],["羅委員智強：我要跟你講的是過去……"],["李主任委員進勇：所以就不應該用那種笑的態度啊！"],["羅委員智強：不是，你就算是今天獨立超出黨派，也不等於今天你跟你的過去就是斷開的，你過去做了什麼事情，主張過什麼事情，我在這裡不能講啊！立法院現在連這個都不能講，我好怕喔！我就說你官威大嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：我今天是以中選會主委的身分被邀請來的，所以我就必須要站穩這個立場。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你也曾經是民進黨的重要成員……"],["李主任委員進勇：那過去的……"],["羅委員智強：民進黨過去曾經有過什麼主張，你不會不知道……"],["李主任委員進勇：今天不必在這邊講過去的故事。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我告訴你，主委，我做一個簡單的歸納。"],["李主任委員進勇：好。"],["羅委員智強：人跟事絕對不能混淆，你們這些人在亂，就你們這些人在亂，人跟事怎麼可以混淆！但在2022年民進黨大，說人跟事可以混在一起，就可以混在一起；還有公投併大選，公投併大選是不能當洪水猛獸的，一定要支持的，這是陳其邁的名言，結果民進黨2018年選輸了，公投就跟大選拆開來了，公投跟大選併在一起，人民的公投權可以行使，投票率可以增加，議案可以通過，但是中選會、民進黨多數的立法院把公投的一隻腳砍斷，公投倒了，2021年因為投票率過低，沒有一樣公投過得了，今天就有一個民進黨的官員在跟你講，哈哈哈，跟你講腳斷一隻站不起來，你看，躺在那個地方站不起來。今天變成拿這個藉口來跟我講，我們不可以再把公投併回大選，更重要的是什麼？很抱歉！人民沒有站在你們這一邊，昨天新國會智庫委託趨勢民調公司做出來的民調非常清楚，66%的選民是主張公投併大選。主委，我們對你很好，因為我們新國會之後還做了一個民調，因為你一直講是公投併大選造成選務的問題，所以就兩個選項開放讓民眾回答，到底是賴清德講的，今天中選會做不好，還是今天是因為公投併大選，很抱歉！43%的人認為是中選會的問題，即便37%的人認為公投綁大選是有關聯的，這37%裡面也有高達63%的民眾是支持公投併大選。","所以我跟主委講一件事情，你講的所有技術問題就像今天有個速食店賣雞塊非常搶手、非常熱門，結果大排長龍，這個速食店的老闆想天啊！怎麼可以大排長龍，他從此停賣雞塊，不賣了，正常腦袋、正常的店就多開櫃臺，讓大家可以去買，怎麼會出一個政府跟我們講，今天因為選務繁雜，因為開票到凌晨3點，所以要把我們的公投砍斷手腳，要讓公投跟大選拆開，來降低投票率，讓公投斷一隻腳，讓公投過不了，這就是今天的民進黨！謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：要不要聽我講兩句話？"],["羅委員智強：請。"],["李主任委員進勇：最近有一個民調的討論，好像在講這次總統大選候選人排名的問題，結果很多人回頭一看，當初這個民調可能並不是那麼正確，我想民調我們做參考，但是民調不是唯一的標準……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！對啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：我不是否定你的66%……"],["羅委員智強：沒有、沒有，我告訴你，主委，民調……"],["李主任委員進勇：我也作為參考，另外，我提到2021年的公投結果也可以作為一個參考，我沒有否定2年時間已經過了，但是它是一個曾經存在的事實，可以作為一個參考，這一點也提供給委員。"],["羅委員智強：到結束的時候，謝謝主委，贏得我一點尊敬，最後結束這一句話好好講，不然，媒體直接寫你一個標題，說因為上次公投沒有通過，所以就不可以了……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有、沒有、沒有，我從來沒有講這個話。"],["羅委員智強：對，澄清清楚就好，沒關係，澄清清楚就好，但是仍然改變不了前面幾個重點……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員現在可以相信我說的話。"],["羅委員智強：好，這點我相信你，以上，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請丁學忠委員。","我們宣告：中午不休息，繼續開會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-7","speakers":["徐欣瑩","羅智強","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張宏陸","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","吳琪銘","丁學忠","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","翁曉玲","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分\n條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 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我們請部長部長好 從早上到現在委員都非常的關心就是有關我們社區精神病患的照護優化的狀況我們在這幾年當中我們也修了一個精神衛生法強化了社會安全網"},{"start":29.747,"end":30.327,"text":"首先我們非常感謝我們"},{"start":56.252,"end":56.572,"text":"市長簡單簡要報告"},{"start":75.666,"end":86.711,"text":"各位委員報告我們目前社區心理衛生中心全國設置合計是52點那我們的心衛中心會禁用各類的人力包含我們的心衛社工關懷訪視員還有這個心理師職能治療師跟護理師到目前為止52個點裡面我們禁用的專業人力大概1400多人"},{"start":95.655,"end":120.137,"text":"我們預計到明年年底能夠補就是增加到2400多人所以大概還有1000人左右的差距那據點呢?據點52個據點其實根本是不夠的是,我們明年希望能夠增加到71點是,那你們現在有是各縣市就是由各縣市這邊還是由我們這個衛福部各縣市政府各縣市政府這邊自己提出來"},{"start":121.158,"end":121.558,"text":"有沒有?"},{"start":150.669,"end":173.738,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們社區心衛中心其實他是我們服務的對象不是只有精神病人其實他是一般民眾也有服務所以說我們是我們跟地方政府這邊我們是把我們的社區心衛中心當作類似像我們心理的衛生所的概念就是希望說民眾他可以就是走進去不會有任何的心理上面的一個負擔"},{"start":174.138,"end":174.178,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":189.978,"end":190.158,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":219.958,"end":245.603,"text":"所以剛剛有委員提到就是說我們這個青少年自殺或者是自殺率逐年在這個攀升當中或者是我們可能有一些這個像前陣子桃園的一個案例就是說這個在路上把一個女童這樣抓住的這種類似這樣的一個狀況也許她可能是一個這個精神疾病的患者或是其他的狀況那像這樣子的話"},{"start":246.323,"end":246.443,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":267.543,"end":288.959,"text":"一方面可能我們衛福部也要去討論一下為什麼這幾年的這個自殺率是這樣子逐年在攀升的那另外一方面可能我們每一次碰到事情之後可能這個在捷運上的殺人事件啊或者是在馬路上就可能被這個無緣無故就被殺或被刺啊類似這樣的一個狀況那怎麼樣做預防"},{"start":291.681,"end":309.957,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":310.517,"end":334.044,"text":"前陣子那個桃園龜山那個強拉幼童的這個事件那我沒有聽到我也沒有看到就是衛福部針對這個事件後續我們要怎麼去做預防或者是你們有什麼樣的回應我是在網路上在媒體上我是完全沒有看到衛福部針對這件事情有做什麼樣的回應我是不是可以先請那個部長先做簡單的回答"},{"start":335.253,"end":356.842,"text":"因為第一個我們很小心在精神病的汙名化這件事情其實媒體有時候或警方所提出來的那個並不是實際上他的病況他應該不是屬於精神病他是和中度智能"},{"start":358.78,"end":372.808,"text":"所以我們也是擔心就會變成一個障礙的歧視所以我們就是很小心按照法律來處理當然我們一定是去請地方政府馬上啟動社工"},{"start":375.829,"end":375.95,"text":"其實我"},{"start":391.047,"end":409.161,"text":"每次這個事件發生之後比如是在立法院或在媒體上面我們看到會有一些很多的一個檢討的聲音那有時候立法院會因為一件事情發生之後就覺得說哪一個法還不完備然後就是又要啟動修法當然我們會認為就是說可能預防會更重要那其實"},{"start":415.626,"end":437.419,"text":"法律的在完整在完備其實還是有它一些不足的地方或者是隨時要發生事情也是沒辦法去就是有時候是很難去預防那當然就是我們要怎麼從這個預防的角度或者是從這個家庭教育的這個角度然後去切入我覺得有時候我們看到這個發生事情"},{"start":439.053,"end":439.133,"text":"黃秀芳"},{"start":458.064,"end":483.801,"text":"我更認為就是說也許在這個家庭教育或者是在這個教育上面可能也是要著重蠻多的所以我也希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分可能也還需要結合我們這個地方政府結合這個教育單位大家一起來努力什麼讓這個事情不要發生或者是萬一如果不幸發生之後那後續要怎麼去做檢討怎麼去做"},{"start":485.902,"end":486.203,"text":"是,了解。我們"},{"start":514.059,"end":527.832,"text":"本部將會同教育部從學校跟社會教育層面那個強化心理的健康提升民眾的心理韌性這個在健康台灣裡面也會列為一個很重要的SEL的一個"},{"start":529.602,"end":529.662,"text":"黃秀芳"},{"start":559.851,"end":560.052,"text":"謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時9分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，從早上到現在，委員都非常關心我們社區精神病患的照護優化狀況。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：在這幾年當中，我們也修了一個精神衛生法，強化了社會安全網，其中有一個部分，就是布建了社區的一些據點──社區心理衛生中心，那我想請教部長，我們這個社區的心理衛生中心布建之後，目前有幾個據點，整個人力的布建狀況到底是怎樣，我是不是可以先請部長簡單說明？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。首先我也非常感謝委員過去在精神衛生法修法當中的幫忙，也做了很多的努力，那我想我們今年12月14號就會來實行。在心理衛生方面的據點也一直在努力，包括人力的部分，請司長簡單、簡要報告一下。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告，我們目前社區心理衛生中心全國設置合計是52點，我們的心衛中心會進用各類的人力，包含我們的心衛社工、關懷訪視員，還有心理師、職能治療師跟護理師，到目前為止52個點裡面，我們進用的專業人力大概一千四百多人，我們預計到明年年底能夠增加到二千四百多人，所以大概還有1,000人左右的差距。"],["黃委員秀芳：那據點呢？52個據點其實根本是不夠的。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是，我們明年希望能夠增加到71點。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，那你們現在是由各縣市這邊，還是由我們衛福部……"],["鄭代理司長淑心：各縣市。"],["邱部長泰源：各縣市都有，至少有一個。"],["黃委員秀芳：各縣市政府這邊自己提出來？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：那我想請教，其實對於地方的社區心理衛生中心有一些民眾他們也會擔心，就是心理衛生中心設置之後，那有的人會擔心這個地方是不是也會成為一個……住在附近居民擔心的一個據點，你們目前有碰到這樣的狀況嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告，因為我們社區心衛中心其實它是……我們服務的對象不是只有精神病人，其實它是一般民眾也有服務，所以我們跟地方政府這邊，我們是把社區心衛中心當作類似像心理的衛生所的概念，就是希望民眾走進去不會有任何心理上面的負擔。"],["黃委員秀芳：那你們設完之後，目前的狀況你們是覺得很好、有達到預期的效果，或者是還有需要改進的地方？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是，謝謝委員。因為目前我們心衛中心的布建，如果是以每33萬人口設一處的話，其實應該是要設到71處左右，這是我們明年的目標，那目前當然還在布建的路上，所以以整體的量能來講，在數量上面當然還是須要持續加油，人力的進用也是一樣的，至於整個心衛中心所提供的服務內容當然也會跟它進用的人力有關，人力到位了其服務也才能到位，這個是我們現在要加強努力的部分。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以剛剛有委員提到，青少年自殺或者是自殺率逐年在攀升當中，或者是我們可能有一些……像前陣子有個桃園的案例，在路上就把一個女童抓住，類似這樣的一個狀況，也許他可能是一名精神疾病的患者，或是有其他的狀況，像這樣子的話，我們也希望未來心衛中心設置之後確實能夠發揮它的功效，而不是據點設了很多，對於原本預期達到的效果卻沒有達到，我覺得這樣是非常可惜的，所以我希望能夠……一方面衛福部可能也要去討論一下，為什麼這幾年的自殺率是逐年在攀升的；另一方面，可能我們每一次碰到事情之後，像在捷運上的殺人事件，或是在馬路上無緣無故被殺、被刺，類似這樣的狀況要怎麼預防，或者是發生之後我們要怎麼去做心理輔導？我覺得這個可能也需要衛福部跟所有相關單位做一個討論。","接下來我想請教一下，前陣子桃園龜山強拉幼童的事件，我沒有聽到也沒有看到衛福部針對這個事件後續要怎麼去預防，或者是你們有什麼樣的回應，我在網路上、媒體上完全沒看到衛福部針對這件事情有做怎樣的回應，是不是可以先請部長做簡單地回答？"],["邱部長泰源：因為第一個，我們很小心地在精神病污名化這件事情上，其實媒體有時候或警方所提出來的並不是他實際上的病況。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：他應該不是屬於精神病，而是中度智能障礙……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我們也擔心就會變成對障礙的歧視。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們就是很小心地按照法律來處理，當然我們一定會去請地方政府馬上啟動社工去關懷，這個實際上會有動作去做，至於說……因為它牽涉到媒體或公告、做什麼聲明的話，我想這個部分我們的確是比較謹慎一點。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實每次有這種事件發生之後，不論是在立法院或是在媒體上面，會看到很多檢討的聲音，有時候立法院會因為一件事情發生之後就覺得哪個法還不完備，然後就又要啟動修法。當然，我們會認為可能預防會更重要，其實法律再完整、再完備也還是有其不足的地方，或者是隨時要發生事情，也是沒有辦法去……有時候是很難去預防的。當然，我們要怎麼從預防的角度，或者是從家庭教育的角度切入，我覺得有時候我們看到這個發生的事情，不論是兩個家庭的家長，應該都是非常傷心的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然，我們碰到這種事情，怎麼樣去做預防，預防後續怎麼樣去檢討？我覺得除了中央跟地方要一起合作之外，其實我更認為，也許在家庭教育或者是在教育上面也是要著重滿多的，所以我也希望衛福部針對這部分可能還需要結合地方政府、結合教育單位，大家一起來努力，怎麼樣讓這種事情不要發生，或者是萬一不幸發生之後，後續要怎麼做檢討、怎麼去做……不要再讓這種事情再生了啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我希望部長，因為你也是長期在關心，不論是你在當醫師的時候，還是你在當立法委員的時候，你本身也非常關心這樣的一個案件，我希望你今天在這個位置上，你應該要發揮你的影響力，讓這樣的事情真的不要再發生了，這個應該是我們最期待的。"],["邱部長泰源：是，瞭解。本部將會會同教育部從學校跟社會教育層面強化心理的健康，提升民眾的心理韌性。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，我……"],["邱部長泰源：這個在健康台灣裡面也會列為一個很重要的……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：的一個學習。"],["黃委員秀芳：對。"],["邱部長泰源：這個應該……"],["黃委員秀芳：我們看到這個事情發生之後，這個加害人可能就被判刑或被收押，判刑、收押完之後呢？他如果又回到社區，怎麼樣去做處置？我覺得這個應該是後續……"],["邱部長泰源：當然這個會好好地銜接。"],["黃委員秀芳：後續應該是最重要的。"],["邱部長泰源：對，我們會把它銜接得很好。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca408f3b6ac4bc609624a570a598ce3c5a9463f5630ed0db2545711aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:03:13 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有請邱部長有關於今天的題目我看了一個資料請你看一下"},{"start":36.174,"end":46.817,"text":"106年到112年各年齡層自殺的死亡率針對女生你可以看到這裡面15歲到24歲15歲到24歲一路攀升了一路攀升了你看這個紅色這一塊一路攀升了"},{"start":60.86,"end":68.827,"text":"而且全國的自殺死亡的人數也是一路攀升了但這個土地你怎麼看法沒有"},{"start":70.253,"end":95.228,"text":"我只是心理衛生師要...我先跟委員報告齁我們真的很重視因為跟委員報告因為你也你也長久也一直關心醫療也很蠻了解我的啦齁因為我這十幾年來也參與自殺防治中心的工作齁那在我在台北市的醫師公會也非常推推這個部分所以有一陣子好好的推的確下來在"},{"start":96.049,"end":96.149,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":123.587,"end":124.067,"text":"所以你同意?"},{"start":141.518,"end":144.001,"text":"社區的心理衛生中心是不是一個重要的一個單位"},{"start":166.528,"end":183.041,"text":"社區的心理中心那也是另外一個體系那自殺防治中心他可能會比較著重在政策的一個那個時候我們在上一屆通過了自殺防治法所以我們真的很努力在處理這個問題"},{"start":185.563,"end":206.796,"text":"其實這樣看齁這個現在大家爭取了長照機構療養機構都是電價凍漲但是這個單位沒有就是社區心理衛生中心沒有你們要不要這個部長這個沒有多少錢你要不要在這裡承諾這個社區心理衛生中心它的電價漲得未無不法的稀少所以你承諾啊你承諾你這個電價不要給它漲啊"},{"start":212.339,"end":222.568,"text":"就這個啊!我就這個意思啊!地方政府的嘛齁所以我們現在長照法裡面是不是有公益的啦齁公益性質的那個如果有"},{"start":225.001,"end":251.815,"text":"這個沒有動長是不是?動長啦!療養機構的動長不是嗎?跟委員報告還沒有?那根本應該動長喔這個我們社區心理衛生中心依法是由地方政府來設置所以說他們通常都是會找一些公用的建物本身就是公用的建物來設置個心理衛生中心我講店家店家店家是是他們本身就是公家單位所以沒有所謂的說要去可是漲價啊店家還是漲啊"},{"start":254.136,"end":273.79,"text":"這不是屬於政府的公交單位的機構建築物裡面去設立那這個部分好像應該就算政府請問你好請問你好你現在長照機構電價你有沒有吸收讓他動作有沒有只有公益性質的才有私立的不行"},{"start":275.059,"end":277.044,"text":"這個部長啊這個那個沒有多少天啊這個你們要cover啦"},{"start":284.44,"end":306.349,"text":"我這三個單位都應該cover不管是公立、私立的當然私立一定要一定的規矩、一定的標準超過那個標準都要給他要照顧啦這個東西對於精神的避疹我們對於強盜機構能夠照顧我們的老人真的我們真的很感佩啦因為他也是跟醫療機構一樣的辛苦所以這個部分我們"},{"start":308.109,"end":330.301,"text":"可以嗎?可以嗎?問題是長照法現在是寫這樣子,要公益性質,所以我們是不是,這個意思我們非常關心的是公益性質不在講公家機關啊,民間就是公益啊,基本上都是公益的啊盈利的就不在這裡面啦,私人的盈利的,那這個部分如果委員或者大家覺得說有這個部分你其實是在服務我們"},{"start":331.261,"end":360.12,"text":"請你們請你們這三個啦一個療養機構、草造機構、心理衛生中心啦好不好這個你們有沒有算過這個定價多少啊這個漲價要漲多少啊有沒有算過有沒有算過對有沒有算過新聞中心是沒算過沒有算過新聞中心是沒算過長照可能要欸長照長照事務來吧今天長照事務沒了沒有多少錢啦你們有這麼大的預算對不對"},{"start":361.334,"end":364.317,"text":"這幾個cover一下你這個好我們回去評估感謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":856,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時3分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。有關於今天的題目，我看了一個資料，請你看一下105年到112年各年齡層自殺的死亡率，針對女生你可以看到，這裡面15歲到24歲一路攀升，你看紅色這一塊一路攀升了，而且全國自殺死亡的人數也是一路攀升了，對這個圖你有什麼看法？或者是心理衛生司要……"],["邱部長泰源：我先跟委員報告，我們真的很重視，因為你長久也一直關心醫療，也滿了解我的啦！我這十幾年來也參與自殺防治中心的工作，我在台北市的醫師公會也非常推這個部分，所以有一陣子在好好推動下的確有下來，跑出了十大死因之一，那後來當然……自殺的原因可能比較複雜，我們也會來……"],["賴委員士葆：最近什麼原因又上來？特別是15歲到24歲的女生，每10萬人死4.8一路攀到10.7，你有沒有看到？"],["邱部長泰源：看到青少年的自殺，真的讓我們都很痛心。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！"],["邱部長泰源：所以我想不管是教育部或者是衛福部，我們會用專業來研究看看其原因，那我們也增加SEL的教學，就是讓他自制，社會情緒能夠學習，從小就能夠學習，面對挑戰的時候能夠調適。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛剛說你長期做這個事情，那你是用什麼平臺來做？你在還沒當部長之前、還沒當立委之前。"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部有自殺防治中心，那以前是李教授在指導，真的非常積極，不管是用……"],["賴委員士葆：社區的心理衛生中心是不是一個重要的單位？"],["邱部長泰源：社區的心理中心也是另外一個體系。自殺防治中心可能會比較著重在政策的一個……那我們在上一屆也通過了自殺防治法，所以我們真的很努力在處理這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：其實這樣看，現在大家爭取了長照機構、療養機構都電價凍漲，但是這個單位沒有，就是社區心理衛生中心沒有，部長，這個沒有多少錢，你要不要在這裡承諾，社區心理衛生中心電價漲的部分衛福部把它吸收。"],["邱部長泰源：社區心理中心是政府單位耶！"],["賴委員士葆：所以你承諾啊！你承諾電價不要給它漲啊！我就是這個意思啊！"],["邱部長泰源：是地方政府的，我們現在長照法裡面是不是有公益性質的那個，如果有……這個沒有凍漲是不是？"],["賴委員士葆：凍漲啦！療養機構也凍漲不是嗎？"],["鄭代理司長淑心：跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：還沒有？那更應該凍漲。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：我們社區心理衛生中心依法是由地方政府來設置，所以他們通常都是會找一些公用的建物，本身就是公用的建物來設置心衛中心。"],["賴委員士葆：我講電價、電價。"],["鄭代理司長淑心：是，他們本身就是公家單位，所以沒有所謂的說要去……"],["賴委員士葆：漲價啊！電價還是漲啊！怎麼不是呢？當然是啊！"],["邱部長泰源：這部分屬於政府、公家單位的機構建築物裡面去設立，那這個部分好像應該就算政府……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，現在長照機構的電價你有沒有吸收，讓它凍漲，有沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：只有公益性質的才有。"],["賴委員士葆：私立的不行？"],["邱部長泰源：營利性質的現在沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：療養機構也沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：我們問過好幾次。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，那個沒有多少錢，這個你們要cover啦！這三個單位都應該要cover，不管是公立、私立的……"],["邱部長泰源：其實長照機構……"],["賴委員士葆：它有一定的規矩、一定的標準，超過那個標準都要給它照顧啦！這個東西對於基層、底層的……"],["邱部長泰源：我們也對長照機構能夠照顧我們的老人，我們真的很感佩啦！因為它也是跟醫療機構一樣的辛苦，所以這個部分我們……"],["賴委員士葆：可以吧？可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：但問題是長照法現在是寫這樣子，要公益性質，所以我們是不是……這個是我們非常關心的。"],["賴委員士葆：公益性質不代表公家機關啊！民間也是有公益啊！基本上也都是公益啊！"],["邱部長泰源：營利的就不在這裡面，私人的、營利的，那這個部分如果委員或者大家覺得這個部分也其實是在服務我們……"],["賴委員士葆：請你們這三個啦！療養機構、長照機構、心理衛生中心，好不好？你們有沒有算過這個電價多少，漲價會漲多少？有沒有算過？"],["邱部長泰源：有沒有算過？"],["賴委員士葆：對，有沒有算過？"],["邱部長泰源：心衛中心是沒算過，長照可能要……今天長照司有來嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：沒有多少錢啦！你們衛福部這麼大的預算，對不對？這幾個cover一下，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們回去評估，感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員、謝謝部長。","繼續我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-7","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林國成","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","賴士葆","黃秀芳","陳雪生","王育敏","劉建國","牛煦庭","楊曜","陳瑩","黃國昌","盧縣一"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案1案；二、邀\n請衛生福利部部長針對「社區精神病患照護優化」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00003"}}},{"id":"156426","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156426","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4be73137691ca4081bccb9d54d36cfc3cdd5a1250ef41c283f5630ed0db25457c30ece9fadaa79bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:00:25 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01}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":3.691,"text":"李主委有請我們等一下投影片請李主委你好主委你剛剛講到天下無難事喔比登天還難這是你自己發明的金句喔我也是有感而發你有感而發喔好我們一件一件事情來把它講清楚喔這個喔"},{"start":23.851,"end":41.492,"text":"我先針對你那個報告有一件事情我們要把話講清楚你說公投綁大選除了選務很複雜之外你還認為說公投是跟選舉選人不應該混在一起對不對?是怎麼會不能混在一起呢?我怕這個私交今天我們討論一個制度的修正一個法令的改變到最後執行的單位是誰?"},{"start":43.083,"end":44.825,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":57.199,"end":76.01,"text":"透過公投綁大選讓事情跟人一起投票一起決定不只是這件事情會因為變成選舉的議題主軸大家要把話講清楚他反而會產生更強的拘束力我舉一個例子2018年大部分人討論的是同溫公投討論的是以和養綠可是中間有非常重要的公投叫反空污公投"},{"start":76.87,"end":99.124,"text":"反空公投高票通過,給了當初同時選舉的台中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣,所以她到現在為止都非常非常堅持這個中火的退場。這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處,不只是在一件事情的態度上民意做得清楚的指示,同時透過選舉的時候給所有政治人物很強的拘束力,這才叫民主不是嗎?"},{"start":100.277,"end":122.806,"text":"我們是希望在選舉的時候,投票的時候,選民對於他要投票的事項,他的選擇的對象,都有很清楚的認知。如果人跟事同時來做決定的話,會失焦。這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係。反空公投大家做了明確的表示,後來你獨立舉行,大家也做了明確的表示。所以你這個邏輯是不通的。人跟事同時討論,跟議題有沒有釐清。"},{"start":124.867,"end":131.55,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":151.92,"end":166.696,"text":"所以我這第一個觀念錯誤我是希望中央會主委三思而後行當然是合併舉行它的效力比較強不只是事情有明確的結果對於這些操作的政治人員因為同時的選舉它有更強的拘束力所以這從民主的意義來講選舉那種非常複雜的攻防我想議員委員都應該都是親身體會的"},{"start":172.048,"end":200.129,"text":"就是因為攻防很複雜才要把話講清楚我告訴你現在的狀況這幾屆的選舉投票率四大公投的投票率很低是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論啊過不了啦單獨舉行投票率很低啦只有無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞啊該表態的題目我不表態啊反正它是獨立選舉大家要投埋在土裡過一下就算了我們不希望這樣的事發生啊既然要有重大議題要公投就跟選舉一起通通表態這才是民主吧"},{"start":200.902,"end":219.593,"text":"主委這是我講的是民主的精神我們公投的結果有沒有辦法會順利的執行很多時候加上選舉的掛鉤它的強度才會高民意的執行才會落實這第一個第二個你剛剛談選務我們就好好來談一談選務這個在2018年的投票亂象之後中選會你剛剛也講了很多嘛對不對你做了很多的調整包含檢討會議包含"},{"start":221.134,"end":243.999,"text":"調整每一投票數的選舉人數,也就是所謂的偵測投票所,對不對?你還改善了流程,還加強了教育訓練,這些事你都有做,對不對?是。你也講成效斐然,對不對?舉世讚美,對不對?沒有錯。沒有錯,對不對?好啊,在這六項啊,當初啊,2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面,它是有強度的分別的。前五項叫技術問題,第六項叫不得已而為之啊。"},{"start":244.739,"end":270.336,"text":"如果我的技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候我才來去思考說我要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流可是你到最後值錢的結果是什麼你吃自助餐啦前面宣示說你都做得很好然後我還是要脫鉤那不是很奇怪嗎你如果前五項都做得很好我們願意給中學會肯定但既然前五項做得很好誰跟你講不能綁大選搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊不是嗎要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效對不對"},{"start":271.676,"end":292.006,"text":"脫鉤是分流的諸多方式裡面很重要的一環。他是諸多方式之一我不否認可是他應該是所有可以窮盡的手段都窮盡完還沒有辦法解決問題的時候我才用最終手段不是嗎因為從民主的意義來看脫鉤就造成了直接民主的打壓嘛就變相的剝奪了大家決定的權利降低了投票的強度不是嗎"},{"start":292.707,"end":301.569,"text":"所以他應該是你不得已而為之的選項。二、一、一、八是十案的公投難保哪一次的這個公投如果合併的話他會更增加"},{"start":302.233,"end":325.169,"text":"你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事嗎?這些事情難道不能用技術的方式來解決嗎?可以嗎?你沒有看到?對啊你前面做了若干的改善之後明明就應該再試一次如果再試一次還是有狀況那你講我們真的非得脫鉤大家也比較了解你現在是試都沒有試啊你就脫鉤那我去講你包藏禍西嗎?"},{"start":328.251,"end":330.173,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":347.49,"end":371.562,"text":"修正這些之前投票率只要超過七成基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮但主委2020的投票率空前的高2024的投票率其實也不低對不對有沒有排隊其實沒有嘛所以表示你前五項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能那誰跟你講不能綁大選綁了大選搞不好還不排隊啊我們如果在同意基準上有一個比較的時候那還有話說可是沒有啊"},{"start":372.102,"end":384.506,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具:「公民投票法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員羅智強等"},{"start":400.012,"end":404.733,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法》案。四、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具《公民投票法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":427.046,"end":427.867,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":443.45,"end":443.73,"text":"三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":464.622,"end":488.254,"text":"我還有一個補充說明就是從2021年這個選舉這個投票的結果出來之後到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的一個改變你講這個話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用啊門檻很高他也不執行啊我告訴你當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候"},{"start":488.914,"end":489.815,"text":"第三十條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員羅智強等19人擬具"},{"start":508.838,"end":530.273,"text":"這個今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候你就用技術去克服嘛你要增加再增加人力再增加設備或者是開票分流都可以討論但你沒有窮盡這些做法之前你不要講說要脫鉤嘛沒有道理的事情啦好不好反正待會到時候法條還會再審查啦希望主委到時候做好準備不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應了謝謝好謝謝梁徐廷委員我們接下來請羅智強委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時）謝謝主席，有請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，你剛剛說天下無難事，比登天還難，這是你自己發明的金句喔？"],["李主任委員進勇：我也是有感而發。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們一件一件事情來把它講清楚。我先針對你那個報告，有一件事情要講清楚，你說公投綁大選，除了選務很複雜之外，你還認為公投事跟選舉選人不應該混在一起，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：怎麼會不能混在一起？請問……"],["李主任委員進勇：因為它會失焦。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天我們討論一個制度的修正、一個法令的改變，到最後執行單位是誰？是不是政府？是不是政治人物？"],["李主任委員進勇：選務的部分權責機關在中選會。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是你，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天任何的事情公投決定之後，執行的人就是政治人物嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這件事情同一時間討論，怎麼會不行呢？透過公投綁大選，讓事情跟人一起投票、一起決定，不只是這件事情會因為它變成選舉的議題主軸，大家要把話講清楚，它反而會產生更強的拘束力。我舉一個例子，2018年大部分人討論的是同婚公投、討論的是以核養綠，可是中間有非常重要的一案叫反空污公投，這反空污公投高票通過，給了當初同時選舉的臺中市長盧秀燕絕對的勇氣，所以他到現在為止都非常非常堅持中火的退場，對不對？這就是事情跟人一起投票的好處，不只是在一件事情的態度上，民意做了清楚的指示，同時透過選舉給所有政治人物很強的拘束力，這才叫民主，不是嗎？主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是希望在選舉的時候、投票的時候，選民對於他要投票的事項、選擇的對象都有很清楚的認知，有人跟事同時來決定的話，會失焦。"],["牛委員煦庭：這跟選舉有沒有合併沒有關係，反空污公投大家做了明確的表示，後來你獨立舉人，大家也做了明確的表示，所以你這個邏輯是不通的，人跟事同時討論跟議題有沒有釐清沒有直接的關係。我反而認為……"],["李主任委員進勇：實證上是發生過。"],["牛委員煦庭：我反而認為事情跟人的選舉一起進行，大家會把話講得更清楚，因為它會是選舉的主軸，你不能因為民進黨到最後公投的結果你都不處理，然後你就推定這個東西混在一起，不要吃自助餐耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：這跟民進黨無關，我是就我選務上所碰到的問題，回答委員的質詢。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們該執行的東西都有執行，是你民進黨沒有執行，當然有關係，所以第一個觀念錯誤，我是希望中選會主委三思而後行，當然是合併舉行，它的效力比較強，不只是事情有明確的結果，對於這些操作的政治人物，因為同時的選舉，會有更強的拘束力，這從民主的意義來講當然是一件好事。"],["李主任委員進勇：選舉那種非常複雜的攻防，我想委員都應該是親身體會。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是因為攻防很複雜，才要把話講清楚，我告訴你，現在的狀況，這幾屆的選舉投票率，四大公投的投票率很低，是因為很多人在宣傳公投無用論，過不了，單獨舉行投票率很低，所以無形間讓很多政治人物可以有機會鑽漏洞，該表態的題目我不表態，反正是獨立選舉，大家頭埋在土裡過一下就算了，我們不希望這樣的事發生，既然有重大議題要公投，就跟選舉一起，通通表態，這才是民主，主委，我講的是民主的精神。我們公投的結果有沒有辦法順利的執行，很多時候加上選舉的掛勾，它的強度才會高，民意的執行才會落實，這是第一個。第二個，你剛剛談選務，我們就好好來談一談選務。2018年的投票亂象之後，你剛剛也講了很多，你做了很多的調整，包含檢討會議，包含調整每一投票所的選舉人數，也就是所謂的增設投票所，你還改善了流程，還加強了教育訓練，這些事情你都有做，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你還講成效斐然，舉世讚美，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：在這6項2018年之後行政院的裁示裡面，它是有強度的分別，前5項叫技術問題，第6項叫不得已而為之，如果技術問題沒有辦法克服的時候，才要去思考要不要用脫鉤的方式來做分流，可是你到最後執行的結果是什麼？你吃自助餐哪！前面宣示你都做得很好，然後還是要脫鉤，那不是很奇怪嗎？如果前5項你都做得很好，我們願意給中選會肯定，但既然前5項做得很好，誰跟你講不能綁大選？搞不好再綁一次大選也不會排隊，不是嗎？要不然我們怎麼檢證說這事有沒有成效？"],["李主任委員進勇：脫鉤是分流的諸多方式裡面很重要的一環。"],["牛委員煦庭：它是諸多方式之一，我不否認，可是它應該是所有可以窮盡的手段都窮盡完還沒有辦法解決問題的時候，才用的最終手段，不是嗎？因為從民主的意義來看，脫鉤就造成了直接民主的打壓，就變相的剝奪大家決定的權利，降低了投票的強度，不是嗎？所以它應該是你不得已而為之的選項，為什麼一併處理了？"],["李主任委員進勇：2018年是10案的公投，難保哪一次的公投合併的話，它會更增加。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不能用一個難保或一個極端的狀況就否定這件事。"],["李主任委員進勇：世界上各國的立法例就有這樣的一種防範。"],["牛委員煦庭：這些事情難道不能用技術方式來解決嗎？可以。"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有看到。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有看到，對啊，你前面做了若干的改善之後，明明就應該再試一次，如果再試一次還是有狀況，那你講我們真的非得脫鉤，大家也比較了解，你現在是試都沒有試，你就脫鉤，那我就講你包藏禍心。"],["李主任委員進勇：人民不會允許我們再出一次的大差錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：你開什麼玩笑？過去這段時間，大大小小的選務爭議也都有，大家也不會否定投票的正當性，對不對？所以你不要自己選擇性的在處理這一件事情，天下無難事後面是只怕有心人，不是比當天還難，何況你這些都做了。以前在修正這些之前，投票率只要超過七成，基本上投票所都會出現若干的排隊人潮，但主委2020年的投票率空前的高，2024的投票率其實也不低，有沒有排隊？其實沒有嘛，所以表示你前5項的工作已經發揮了分流的功能，誰跟你講不能綁大選？綁了大選搞不好還不排隊啊。我們如果在同一基準上有一個比較的時候，那還有話說，可是沒有，那你現在就是還沒有做實驗，還沒有真正去完成這件事，沒有檢證這5項的強度的時候，你就直接否定了這件事情，難道不會有失比例原則嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：其實根據這個東西，我們委託過民間來做深入的研究，這個問題是絕對無法避免的，就是選務的量達到一定的程度，是已經超過我們選務機關所能夠承載的，這個問題要去面對。"],["牛委員煦庭：你每次都找一小撮人，然後就說我們經過了審慎的研究，它說不行，這個沒有說服力的。"],["李主任委員進勇：不是一小撮人，我們這個有包括研究。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問你要用什麼樣的心態來面對有六成六的民意調查，認為應該要公投綁大選？請問你要用什麼的心態來面對？我們是民意代表，我當然覺得要表達民意。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們也不能夠無視2021年公投綁大選被否決這個不爭的事實。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講得真好，我正想跟你講這件事情，你們民進黨最喜歡吃自助餐，請問公投的效力是幾年？"],["李主任委員進勇：2年。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年是幾年？"],["李主任委員進勇：現在有人提議要4年。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，如果你想要繼續講這個，那請大家都支持，以後把公投效力延長。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想這個不爭事實擺在那個地方，總是可以作為參考，包括委員所提到的66%，這個都可以作為參考。"],["牛委員煦庭：又變可以參考了，你今天整天的答詢都一直吃自助餐，對你有利的時候，你就講說你看公投的結果擺在這邊，然後我現在講的時候、我打臉之後，你又講說現在只是參考，不是很奇怪嗎？我當然希望公投效力可以延長，但是以前的事就按照現行的法規來解釋，該翻篇了，不要再拿這個數字出來洗地了，沒有這個問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我還有一個補充說明，就是2021年這個投票的結果出來之後，到現在客觀的環境條件並沒有什麼大幅度的改變。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講這話我是聽不太懂你想要表達什麼，我們知道的事情是當初2021年在發動選舉的時候，一大堆的耳語就說公投沒有用，門檻很高，他也不執行。我告訴你，當我們的政治淪落成這樣的時候，有再好的制度也沒有用，不是嗎？我們要做的事情是讓這些制度可以符合當初立法的精神。什麼叫公投的精神？希望讓人民有更多的參與、有更多的討論、有更多的表達，這才是精神，主委，你不要拿技術的枝節來否定法案的精神，這是我要提醒你的事情。今天你講的實務上的問題是技術可以克服的時候，你就用技術去克服，你要再增加人力、再增加設備，或者是開票分流都可以討論，但在你沒有窮盡這些作法之前，你不要說要脫鉤，這是沒有道理的事情。反正待會法條還會再審查，希望主委到時候做好準備，不要再拿這些洗地的言論來回應，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-7","speakers":["徐欣瑩","羅智強","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張宏陸","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","吳琪銘","丁學忠","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","翁曉玲","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「公民投票法第三十條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「公民投票法部分\n條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅智強等 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謝謝委員那我的新聞齁那第一個就是說我們相關的事件發生以後我們當然就啟動了補典你直接回答就好了到底有問題還幾經啦你那發言沒有為什麼要談這個呢你知道嗎你們從10月9號我補典你也當請聽話你們從10月9號我質詢問你到現在你們連回答都沒回答"},{"start":132.757,"end":136.179,"text":"將近一個月了,連書面的資料都沒有。你們當我們立法院是啥?我們都在這裡問你,你沒說。結束了質詢,也沒有任何書面資料提供給我們。所以你們現在是裝睡的人叫不行嗎?還是說直接就不予理會,立法院立委的質詢直接忽略?"},{"start":154.81,"end":172.236,"text":"所以今天在這裡我再問你一次你到底能不能告訴我有哪幾一共有多少的醫院有病安有公安醫律而你的補強作為是什麼你們到底盤點了沒你不要扯東扯西你告訴我到底有多少"},{"start":173.584,"end":184.692,"text":"因為這個事務應該是要地方政府跟消防局方面阿你以為在這裡諮詢過你們,你們都沒有去盤點,沒有跟地方聯絡,你們醫政會都沒有去看一下所以在這裡告別人才會公認就沒有了嗎?你不是也質詢在這裡當一回事嗎?"},{"start":193.629,"end":200.994,"text":"你告訴我這個答案是什麼?立委從10月9號問你到現在將近一個月了,你們現在還是回答不出來?保證你是說什麼?還是沒有掌握?有類似病安或公安疑慮的,有管線問題有疏散動線問題這種公安疑慮的"},{"start":221.394,"end":224.536,"text":"我們當然很關心117家有幾家我們很關心醫院的一個保定你答非所問不要在這裡胡說八道我現在問你是一共有幾家有公安的疑慮啦這個恐怕要再調查一下10月9號問你到現在還在恐怕要調查10月9號諮詢過一次了勒所以這個是不曉得你們是"},{"start":250.953,"end":256.057,"text":"我們會去調查各個地方政府還有消防局他們所調查的結果對啦,什麼時候可以給答案一個月之內好了"},{"start":273.251,"end":280.354,"text":"好就再給你一個月希望在一個月裡面大家都平安那我現在不是要繼續談這個我現在要談的是說你們從去年7月1號去年衛福部調整了部分負擔的心智針對門診藥品部分負擔還有急診的部分負擔進行調整"},{"start":293.28,"end":315.094,"text":"你們的目的是說要落實分級醫療、珍惜健保資源事實上你們就是希望我們解決急診擁捨還有你們希望大家要分級醫療到地區醫院不要全部擠到這個教學醫院裡面來你們的目的啊就希望大家珍惜醫療資源期待就醫分流解決急診人馬為患的這個狀況然後讓穩定的慢性的病人鼓勵他們到急診診所"},{"start":321.138,"end":328.926,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面我來看一下這個部長實施一年以後已經一年了成效如何?成效如何?"},{"start":334.939,"end":363.012,"text":"實施了以後基層門診的就診案件的戰力從多了有多了不多啦0.22%那慢性病以及診所就醫率從大概增加了4.61%這個也是比較正面的一個成果的確是有改有進步第二個就是改善急診的用篩降幅大概有到達2.27到6.43那當然慢性病處方"},{"start":363.872,"end":369.755,"text":"來來部長我替你回答啦因為你現在照稿念嘛因為你們健保署發布新聞稿有五個觀察有初步的成效第一個促進了分級醫療啦第二個改善了急診擁捨啦第三個避免藥品的浪費啦第四改善付費公平性及健保財務啦第五持續保障弱勢啦這個是你們健保署的"},{"start":388.345,"end":401.569,"text":"新聞稿你們的新聞稿其實是來自於健保會第113年第9次的委員會會議資料就是第一案新制部分負擔監測指標的監測結果及成效檢討報告的內容部長你自己有看過嗎"},{"start":406.09,"end":417.414,"text":"新制的部分負擔你這樣子從你當立委到當部長這樣子一路走來這是一個大的政策因為就是長這個部分負擔嘛那你自己有沒有看過這麼重要的這麼重大的政策上的調整一年的有效還是沒有效你自己有看過這個報告嗎?"},{"start":429.582,"end":430.823,"text":"所以你們有改善來急診勇赦嗎?"},{"start":441.854,"end":467.808,"text":"一統計的數字是有進步來我就跟你分享這一些來來來來來來我自己在7月1號就質詢時就跟你分享有我的朋友的家人在急診區等很久一直遲遲等不到病床結果在急診的急診區直接進行插管治療而且除了我以外王正旭委員今年的"},{"start":468.368,"end":473.832,"text":"也特別提到好多急診量能滿載王委員很客氣然後國民黨的委員也講了那部長當時也有回答說如果你聽台大吳明顯院長講這個急診的時候後床是日常的事情那我們都知道說民眾要問的不是這樣子民眾要問的是要等多久"},{"start":495.146,"end":514.939,"text":"你們認為有改善急診的這個候診時間急診的泳色有改善那為什麼這一年來等待的時間卻越來越長然後呢調整部分負擔叫大家都不要去然後就說"},{"start":516.62,"end":530.011,"text":"一定會改善,而且你們報告說已經有改善,但事實真的那樣子嗎?這個根據健保署的報告,實施條長部分負擔以後,每個人負擔的金額比2022年,這個第一張"},{"start":539.502,"end":565.232,"text":"比2022年來比增加了149人價格調漲了沒有錯這一張來但是呢急診的平均每人就醫次數來到2019年來的歷史新高大概幾道急診裡面的次數創下歷史新高反而是負擔金額最低的2022年的平均每人就醫次數是相對低的"},{"start":566.152,"end":566.292,"text":"林淑芬議員"},{"start":581.049,"end":607.466,"text":"平均國人每人就醫到急診就醫的次數創歷史新高你漲了部分負擔了可是就醫的次數創新高那你們說要以價值量的這個政策手段你說是有效啦這個是有效嗎等待的時間增加錢付的更多品質更下降這個政策就是你們說的急診永設有改善嗎"},{"start":614.292,"end":634.35,"text":"謝謝委員指教我了解那個因為會有這樣的趨勢大幅上升阿你們說有效阿他的原因真的是要多元化來分析阿對多元化分析可以好這樣講阿所以你現在又有原因因為可能不是只有一個原因而且這個是不是說我們這樣我們過去也常常在談嘛你到底"},{"start":635.171,"end":640.433,"text":"你講得很好欸可是你們當時告訴人家我就是要以價製量啊我要給你漲部分負擔啊要以價製量一定可以控制急診勇社啊可以導引人民到正確的路上去分級醫療啊你們當時就這樣錢都漲了結果你們的政策目的是什麼漲價是手段欸"},{"start":661.539,"end":685.554,"text":"你是要大家解決急診涌射的狀況要分級醫療的政策能夠落實結果你的目的是這兩個政策有達到嗎?你的新聞稿說你們達到了所以我問你有達到嗎?你現在要說淡書了我想我們多年來一直在推展分級醫療改善體系我想...我原來...我不要說這個數據就好他提出這個...五年提出這個方法並不是我..."},{"start":693.119,"end":696.722,"text":"你不要為那個政策買單的意思?那你要調整嗎?不是,我應該是要改善加強基層..."},{"start":707.149,"end":710.211,"text":"我希望民眾真的要相信我們基層醫師基層醫師的能力基層醫療的可靠性然後信任感是叫人民相信就相信的嗎"},{"start":723.686,"end":752.38,"text":"你用什麼有效的手段然後再講下一張醫學中心的急診申報件數從疫情以來都是有增無減調整部分負擔以後急診申報件數也是創新高而相對的地區醫院從疫情以來的戰略卻來到新低所以你們自己說我們解決了其實你比較的年度是比較最差的你說你看綠色的地區醫院成長了你怎麼不比109年"},{"start":753.681,"end":768.943,"text":"你怎麼不比這個112年112年的去年沒有那個COVID-19的疫情啦他還是下降啊對地區醫院基層醫院他的就診率下降欸"},{"start":769.964,"end":783.864,"text":"所以你就要去醫學中心的、急診的、門診的部分負擔但是沒有人民沒有跑到這個急診醫院去反而你來看他粉紅色的醫學中心跟去年比還屢創新高"},{"start":786.698,"end":805.394,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面難怪有這種民間團體在質疑啊你漲部分負擔只是為了填補這個健保財務空洞可是呢醫療品質沒有提升急診的等待時間越來越長越來越長所以你剛剛講不是漲價可以解決的漲價的手段你不能把它當成目的啊"},{"start":815.523,"end":817.664,"text":"沒有下降啊好再下一張那你們在講說急診減傷戰略你們講說你們有效解決你們剛才那個還報告說健保署還說你們已經解決了這個急診擁捨的狀況我們就來看一般急診我們在減傷一級跟二級我們就看他戰流時間"},{"start":841.345,"end":863.032,"text":"一級跟二級就是要命的啦 最急的可是它暫留的時間越來越長而你們自己都知道2019到2024醫學中心急診的相關指標就是減傷一級的急診病人要轉入病房要小於8小時減傷一級要幾分鐘以內馬上立即處理 來 沒錯 減傷一級是多嚴重"},{"start":869.097,"end":889.396,"text":"要立即處理他們要轉入病房內能夠在8個小時裡面轉入不管家戶病房還是什麼病房是時間停留時間他們可以8小時裡面就轉到病房的比例越來越少所以他們都暫留暫留的時間越來越多"},{"start":890.217,"end":895.32,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面急診暫留時間上升然後減傷一級在2024年上半年比2023年的下半年還要多出一個小時來到平均要15.43小時已經是你們建議的8小時的健保品質的兩倍的時間所以上不去所以才有我說的直接在急診區直接插管"},{"start":922.498,"end":939.141,"text":"這像話嗎?像話嗎?以前八小時裡面就轉到病房去然後馬上處理的以前至少五成而且是作五忘六你看作五忘六急診插管是在救命所以是常見的啊當然即使要上病床也要插管最好是沒有感染的風險啦等一下一堆人走到人來人往可以直接好啦沒關係啦你不要跟我說插管的轉移焦點啦"},{"start":947.583,"end":947.863,"text":"林淑芬議員"},{"start":977.723,"end":977.883,"text":"林淑芬"},{"start":997.028,"end":1012.763,"text":"那只是部分的一個策略而已,整體的策略才是重要的。好,下一張,來我們再看喔。所以我們來講一下啦齁,你們在這種狀況裡面部分負擔漲了、漲了、漲了,然後再下一張,不是這一張。"},{"start":1016.104,"end":1036.92,"text":"好,沒關係,我自己講結論好了啦在這種狀況裡面,調整部分募單的政策要以佳質量沒有發生那對分級醫療來講也沒有效,地區醫院、基層醫院看診的、就診的人數越來越少所以沒有發生啊,錢有啊,錢啊"},{"start":1038.661,"end":1038.721,"text":"林淑芬議員"},{"start":1058.364,"end":1058.924,"text":"我為了救我的親人我再沒錢我再窮"},{"start":1085.675,"end":1087.437,"text":"報告委員醫療界如果對於要增加人民負擔我們真的也都不忍心"},{"start":1112.739,"end":1132.049,"text":"所以大家講說部分負擔叫做殭屍理論啦長部分負擔就被人家稱之為是殭屍理論第二個最後講一個對分級醫療也無效我們剛剛已經講了就是說基層這個在基層門診的就醫建樹占有率在今年"},{"start":1133.029,"end":1156.988,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1157.288,"end":1173.313,"text":"聽了這篇新聞稿,調整了參考的年度,然後講了最有利自己的叉子抹粉的政策的有效性。那其實就是要去突顯說你們是有效的假象。這不是保險人應該有的這個應該有應有之局啊。所以部長你剛才講說這個手段恐怕是有問題的。"},{"start":1180.535,"end":1196.859,"text":"那如果有問題的話,你的檢討政策,你的手段跟結果之間的落差,那你要怎麼調整呢?報告委員,我不是說有問題,我是說在整體的各種策略裡面,它也是一個策略。我剛剛講已經告訴你沒有效啦。那我們都會檢討。我就跟你講,剛剛這些數據我們告訴你沒有效。"},{"start":1205.097,"end":1231.208,"text":"阿你只是讓人民的荷包變得更扁因為要改善醫療體系不是那麼一個簡單的對 非常複雜那你要拿出一個比較有效的手段而不是在那裡讓我們等了更久非常願意來拿出手段那這個要考慮阿你的手段是什麼考慮醫政考慮政府對啦你的手段可能我們在這裡聽一下我們可能的手段會是什麼錢都讓你漲了除了漲錢以外"},{"start":1232.108,"end":1258.825,"text":"你還有什麼有效的手段我們第一個一定要維護那個病人的品質第二個也要有醫療人員醫療人員也要好的工作環境啊他不是醫療人員也需要薪水也需要好的一個環境第三個醫療院所要你講的這個都是我們的理想你不用講這不是你的政策這個不是政策啦才會來一個一個來看怎麼去達到"},{"start":1261.207,"end":1266.111,"text":"我們部分負擔在急診從450讓你漲到750內,然後我們這個讓你漲到750,漲這麼多,啊你現在拿不出手段來,你就要趕快宣誓信再念一遍。"},{"start":1278.443,"end":1295.38,"text":"這不是在這裡虛偽行李如意的在那裡呼嚨立委嗎?好啦我們陳學生立委一直在趕了啦你都書面交一篇書面報告啦還有那個有公安疑慮的那些醫院的資料一個月內提供好沒問題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":748,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時41分）謝謝主席。是不是請邱部長？"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，10月9日我在這裡質詢你，衛福部有沒有盤點目前有公安問題醫院有幾家？我當時就說，根據醫測會網站資料顯示，106年到112年醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑合格名單共有417家，而醫院評鑑效期在今年12月31日到期，要重新做評鑑的醫院有117家。換言之，有四分之一的家數將在今年年底做評鑑，甚至有的已經開始做了。如同我們之前所講的，失火的醫院都已經做了，所以你們到底有沒有掌握這117家醫院有沒有跟屏東失火的醫院一樣，有管線、疏散動線這種公安問題存在？如果有的話，已經有前車之鑑。我在10月9日談了一次，現在又談一次，那我要問你的是，到底有問題的有幾家？我沒有問你是哪幾家，我問的是一共有幾家，而評鑑結果出來以前，如果有一些問題，那你要如何處置？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的詢問。第一個，在相關的事件發生以後，我們當然就啟動了……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你直接回答即可，到底有問題的有幾家？你們有沒有發現？為什麼要談這個你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有問題的有幾家……"],["林委員淑芬：你們從10月9日……"],["邱部長泰源：那是地方政府跟……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，請先聽我講。從10月9日我質詢你到現在，你們連回答都沒回答，將近1個月了，連書面的資料都沒有，你們當我們立法院是啥？我們在這裡問你，你沒有說，結束了質詢也沒有任何書面資料提供給我們，所以你們現在是裝睡的人叫不醒呢？還是說直接就不予理會，立法院立委的質詢直接忽略？所以今天在這裡我再問你一次，你到底能不能告訴我，一共有多少醫院有病安、有公安疑慮？而你的補強作為是什麼？你們到底盤點了沒？你不要扯東扯西，你告訴我到底有多少。"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個數目應該是地方政府跟消防局方面……"],["林委員淑芬：立委在這裡質詢過你們，你們都沒有去盤點？沒有跟地方聯絡？你們醫策會都沒有去看一下？所以在這裡連狗吠火車的功能都沒有嗎？立委在這裡的質詢你不當一回事？"],["邱部長泰源：我們的確也有啟動在醫策會……"],["林委員淑芬：你告訴我這個答案是什麼。"],["邱部長泰源：因為……"],["林委員淑芬：立委從10月9號問你，到現在將近一個月了，你們現在還是回答不出來！部長，你是說不出來？還是沒有掌握？有類似病安或公安疑慮的、有管線問題、有疏散動線問題，這種公安疑慮的……"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然很關心……"],["林委員淑芬：117家裡面有幾家？"],["邱部長泰源：我們很關心醫院的一個……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你答非所問！不要在這裡胡說八道！我現在問你的是一共有幾家有公安的疑慮。"],["邱部長泰源：這個恐怕要再調查一下，再跟委員……"],["林委員淑芬：10月9號問你到現在還在說恐怕要調查？10月9號質詢過一次了耶！所以不曉得你們是沒聽到還是繼續裝睡，那你告訴我，你什麼時候可以給我答案？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會去調查各地方政府還有消防局他們所調查的結果。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，什麼時候可以給答案？"],["邱部長泰源：收集起來，然後再跟您報告。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，什麼時候？大概要多久？"],["邱部長泰源：一個月之內好了。"],["林委員淑芬：好，就再給你一個月，希望這一個月裡面大家都平安。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在不是要繼續談這個，我現在要談的是，你們從去年7月1號，去年衛福部調整了部分負擔的新制，針對門診藥品的部分負擔還有急診的部分負擔來進行調整，你們的目的是說要落實分級醫療，珍惜健保資源。事實上，你們就是希望解決急診壅塞，還有你們希望大家要分級醫療，到地區醫院，不要全部擠到教學醫院，你們的目的就是希望大家珍惜醫療資源，期待就醫分流，解決急診人滿為患的狀況，然後讓穩定的慢性的病人，鼓勵他們到基層診所。在這種狀況裡面，我來看一下，部長，實施一年以後，已經一年了，成效如何？"],["邱部長泰源：我們實施了以後，基層門診就診案件的占率多了不多，增加0.22%；慢性病人於基層診所就醫率大概增加了4.61%，這個也是比較正面的成果，的確是有進步；第二個就是改善急診的壅塞，降幅自2.27%到6.43%，當然慢性病處方箋的藥費也從……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我來替你回答啦！因為你現在是照稿念嘛，你們健保署發布了新聞稿，觀察有5個初步的成效，第一個，促進分級醫療；第二個，改善急診壅塞；第三個，避免藥品浪費；第四，改善付費公平性及健保財務；第五，持續保障弱勢。這個是你們健保署的新聞稿，OK？你們的新聞稿其實是來自於健保會113年第9次的委員會會議資料，就是第一案，新制部分負擔監測指標的監測結果及成效檢討報告的內容。部長，你自己有看過嗎？新制的部分負擔，從你當立委到當部長，這樣子一路走來，這是一個大的政策，因為就是漲部分負擔嘛，那你自己有沒有看過這麼重要的、這麼重大的政策上的調整，已經一年了，到底有效還是沒效？你自己有看過這份報告嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：由這些初步的成效來看，我認為是有改善啦，委員也知道我們……"],["林委員淑芬：所以你們有改善了急診壅塞嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：依統計的數字是有進步。"],["林委員淑芬：依統計的數字是有進步，來，我就跟你分享這些，來、來、來……"],["邱部長泰源：這個應該也是健保署客觀的數字。"],["林委員淑芬：我自己在7月1號質詢時就跟你分享，有我的朋友的家人在急診區等很久，一直遲遲等不到病床，結果在急診的急診區直接進行插管治療，而且除了我以外，王正旭委員今年也特別提到好多急診量能滿載，王委員很客氣，然後國民黨的委員也講了，部長當時也回答說，如果你聽臺大吳明賢院長講，急診候床是日常的事情。我們都知道民眾要問的不是這樣子，民眾要問的是要等多久？你們認為有改善急診的候診時間，急診的壅塞有改善，那為什麼這一年來，等待的時間卻越來越長？然後調整部分負擔，叫大家都不要去，然後就說一定會改善，而且你們的報告說已經有改善，但事實真的是那樣子嗎？","根據健保署的報告，調漲部分負擔以後，每個人負擔的金額比2022年增加了149元，價格調漲了沒有錯，但是急診的平均每人就醫次數來到2019年以來的歷史新高，大家擠到急診裡面的次數創下歷史新高，反而是負擔金額最低的2022年的平均每人就醫次數是相對低的，111年是1.46次，到今年次數創新高，是1.56次。然後有漲價啦，我們看得出來漲價啦，部長，漲價了是事實，但是平均國人每人就醫、到急診就醫的次數創歷史新高，你漲了部分負擔，可是就醫的次數創新高，你們說要以價制量的這個政策手段，你說是有效啦，這個是有效嗎？等待的時間增加、錢付得更多、品質更下降！這個政策就是你們說的急診壅塞有改善嗎？這張圖你自己看！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員指教，我了解，因為會有這樣的趨勢……"],["林委員淑芬：大幅上升啊，你們說有效啊！"],["邱部長泰源：它的原因真的是要多元化來分析。"],["林委員淑芬：對，多元化分析，可以，好，這樣講，所以你現在又有原因……"],["邱部長泰源：因為可能不是只有一個原因，而且我們過去也常常在談以價來制量到底有沒有效？"],["林委員淑芬：你講得很好，可是你們當時告訴人家你們就是要以價制量，要漲部分負擔啊！要以價制量，一定可以控制急診壅塞，可以導引人民到正確的路上去分級醫療，你們當時就這樣做，錢都漲了，結果你們的政策目的是什麼？漲價是手段，你是要解決急診壅塞的狀況，要分級醫療的政策能夠落實，結果你的目的是這兩個政策，有達到嗎？你的新聞稿說你們達到了，所以我問你，有達到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，那是初步的成效。"],["林委員淑芬：你現在又說但書了。"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們多年來一直在推展分級醫療、改善體系，我想委員很清楚……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，我不要說這個數據就好……"],["邱部長泰源：去年提出這個方法並不是我……"],["林委員淑芬：好、好、好……"],["邱部長泰源：但是我覺得只要有幫助……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要為那個政策買單的意思？"],["邱部長泰源：不是，我說只要……"],["林委員淑芬：那你要調整嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：那只是其中的一部分。"],["林委員淑芬：那你要調整嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不是，我應該是要改善，加強基層……"],["林委員淑芬：錢都被你們漲了，我們花的錢都花更多了啦！"],["邱部長泰源：所以就是……"],["林委員淑芬：現在說沒有用、不是一個有效的手段？"],["邱部長泰源：那我也希望民眾真的要相信我們基層醫師，我們基層醫師都是很……"],["林委員淑芬：基層醫師的能力、基層醫療的可靠性，然後信任感，是叫人民相信就相信的嗎？你用什麼有效的手段？","好，我再講，醫學中心的急診申報件數從疫情以來都是有增無減，調整部分負擔以後，急診申報件數也是創新高，而相對的地區醫院從疫情以來的占率卻來到新低，所以你們自己說，我們解決了，其實你比較的年度是比較最差的，你看綠色的地區醫院成長了，你怎麼不比109年？你怎麼不比112年？112（去）年沒有COVID-19的疫情了，但它還是下降，地區醫院、基層醫院的就診率下降，所以你就要漲醫學中心急診、門診的部分負擔，但是人民沒有跑到基層醫院去，反而你來看粉紅色的醫學中心，跟去年比還屢創新高！所以在這種狀況裡面，難怪有民間團體在質疑，你漲部分負擔只是為了填補健保財務空洞，可是醫療品質沒有提升，急診的等待時間越來越長。所以你剛剛講不是漲價可以解決的，漲價的手段你不能把它當成目的，沒有下降啊！","你們在說急診檢傷占率，你們說你們有效解決，剛才健保署還說你們已經解決了急診壅塞的狀況，我們就來看一般急診在檢傷一級跟二級，我們就看他暫留時間，一級跟二級就是要命的啦！最急的！可是他暫留的時間越來越長，而你們自己都知道，2019到2024醫學中心急診的相關指標，就是檢傷一級的急診病人轉入病房要小於8小時，減傷一級要幾分鐘以內馬上立即處理？來，部長，檢傷一級是多嚴重？"],["邱部長泰源：檢傷一級要立即處理。"],["林委員淑芬：要立即處理，他們要能夠在8個小時以內轉入病房，不管加護病房還是什麼病房，他們可以8小時以內就轉到病房的比例越來越少，所以他們都暫留，暫留的時間越來越多。因此這種狀況底下急診暫留時間上升，然後檢傷一級在2024年上半年比2023年下半年還要多出1個小時，平均要15.43小時，已經是你們建議8小時健保品質的兩倍時間，所以上不去！所以才有我說的直接在急診區插管，這像話嗎？像話嗎？以前8小時以內就轉到病房去，然後馬上處理的，以前至少5成……"],[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那油抽完了之後接下來呢"},{"start":58.211,"end":83.863,"text":"應該會在原地做拆解的動作是不是請局長各位報告我們現在最優先的就是把油抽完應該要化解這個污染的風險那第二個就是船貨的移除那我們會設法盡量除了這個限地拆解這個方案之外我們通常會設法讓它所謂的撫養的移除讓它能夠拖帶那個離開這個擱淺的位置"},{"start":87.644,"end":108.612,"text":"現在是貨接下來油處理完了再來處理貨船跟貨船你要就地拆解掉嗎沒有我們會要求保險公司提出對環境影響最小的方案希望以拖走為優先但如果拖不走就必須要就地拆解局長國際上處理擱淺大家都怎麼處理"},{"start":115.228,"end":138.935,"text":"我們現在以這個案子來講這個都是國際上知名的保險公司保險公司是一個問題保險公司那是事後等到事情到了結論之後該怎麼賠那保險公司要出面賠嘛那我的意思是說國際面對我舉個例子第一個船擱淺它可能漏油"},{"start":139.875,"end":148.949,"text":"那我看我們能做的就是七早八早就把燃油省先弄出來嘛第二個如果貨上面載的是危險物品"},{"start":150.131,"end":172.22,"text":"那這個可能問題更嚴重嘛因為他可能會有其他的污染甚至爆炸甚至我anyway不知道什麼問題啦反正上面的貨如果還是危險物品所以呢國際上的處理方式是跟我們一樣就是等著穩定之後先抽油再解決貨然後再處理影響最小的船看要怎麼處理"},{"start":173.724,"end":192.979,"text":"國際都是這樣子嗎那國際有救援船臺灣臺灣到今天為止連一艘救援船都沒有嘛對我們派海巡去只是把人載走嘛對對於那一艘船怎麼處置我們其實是臺灣其實是無能為力的就簡單講他如果漏油我們就讓他漏漏完再來索賠嘛"},{"start":194.777,"end":212.149,"text":"對 包委 這個部分就是現在我們比較欠缺的是拖船的能量對對對不管把它推到更外海或者拉進來我們都沒有嘛那現在國內的這個拖船都是港內型的對對對 我們沒有那麼大的這個救援船嘛"},{"start":212.589,"end":226.79,"text":"那根本就是說現在也在行政院的支持下在江部的支持下今年行政院已經核定了我們明明要來推動一艘大型的拖救船好那這個大型拖救船的營運是在"},{"start":229.19,"end":253.358,"text":"港務公司嗎我們會招商那會有一家專業的廠商他會來負責這個好所以就明年開始我們開始打造第一艘臺灣的救援船是這樣的意思嗎下半年明年下半年是這樣的意思沒有錯是的第一艘好這個我的重點在這裡就是說我希望明年真的要落實這個事情臺灣對四面環海"},{"start":256.192,"end":279.504,"text":"那每一年現在只是剛好我在關心這個問題的時候剛好有這個在野柳外海事實上之前7月10月我看陸續你們這個通報的這個事件裡面幾乎這個每一年都很多條船擱淺那我其實很不同意這種所謂我其實不同意這種事後大家再來看要怎麼處理"},{"start":280.504,"end":303.973,"text":"就是他把臺灣譬如說在野柳外海甚至有一些更是海洋生態豐富的地方他把他汙染了然後我們汙染之後再開始人家說你要賠我錢我們應該是想辦法阻止他不要讓他汙染嘛所以我看國際的救援上面譬如說日本來講他可能是大型的救援船把那個擱淺的船推出去"},{"start":304.893,"end":311.059,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":329.689,"end":357.548,"text":"已經事情發生了我們在講事後那個賠償我認為這個做法上消極委員所說的過去確實沒有這個拖船的設施這個確實只能消極處理那未來如果有拖船我們就可以積極處理所以部長這個一定要督促讓明年不管你們營運的方式是政府來經營或者政府跟民間合作或者你們直接要招標委託給民間經營不是都贊成但是重點就是說我們要趕快積極"},{"start":360.073,"end":388.033,"text":"這個實在是說實在話今天講這個有稍微漏氣這個那麼久的時間然後我們四面環每一年都這種案例都那麼多但我們卻都是無能為力的方式在處理消極的方式在處理我覺得這個不妥所以這一次要來做這個事情本席是很支持的但我很擔心說搞就要做搞不要明年又來跟講說來立法院講說又遇到什麼問題又不能做明年下半年大概這艘船就能到了明年下半年就能到了"},{"start":388.732,"end":394.673,"text":"好謝謝那請三位請回那接下來我請那個那個觀光署那個周署長委員好署長好署長我想齁這個本席八年的時間沒有待在交通委員會齁這個十年前我就在這個台上齁很非常關心那個旅館的那個星級認證那當時我就已經預測齁這個星級認證齁"},{"start":420.852,"end":444.559,"text":"這個越來越糟糕業者第一個業者業者參與的程度越來越低有參與的人就算觀光署去鼓勵去鼓勵去拜託或者他自己有需求可是這個得到這個星期認證在消費者心目當中他已經是他已經不算一個事了啦就是現在的消費者對於"},{"start":446.175,"end":460.236,"text":"我們這個交通部觀光署所做的這些星級認證大家已經不再是作為一個我住宿的指標所以長期下來這種叫惡性循環就我得獎也沒什麼"},{"start":461.547,"end":474.494,"text":"那我參加了我要繳費然後我得到這個獎所以我就不參加啊不參加你看那個數目啊你看星期旅館那個那個認證的那個加數啊104年606到了113年這逐年一直下來嘛剩下100多"},{"start":482.21,"end":498.636,"text":"我認為如果我們不理他就讓他繼續留在那裡不施任何的改進或者乾脆你把他廢掉嘛或者說你要把他留著很好我也不會反對那你要怎麼做讓他可以起死回生這個早晚就是歸零嘛"},{"start":499.156,"end":505.2,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":515.046,"end":516.707,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署"},{"start":531.377,"end":556.595,"text":"所以我們也用澳洲的標準所以我們有一個五星Outstanding應該俗稱的六星級飯店所以這一次已經有兩家六星級的飯店那這個星級的部分我們也重新調配也就是它的KPI會不一樣所以現在就是說先整備的部分盤整的部分已經完成了那再來的話我們怎麼樣是"},{"start":557.756,"end":558.477,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園"},{"start":582.377,"end":602.325,"text":"臺灣觀光協會臺灣觀光協會有很多新級旅館在裡面所以我們也希望透過臺灣觀光協會跟我們的新級旅館的這個協會做一些串接我們希望做一些鼓勵性的飲客那確實大家對新因為現在我們修法還在做也就是我們現在旅館有三種"},{"start":603.405,"end":627.238,"text":"一個叫做國際觀光旅館一個叫做一般觀光旅館一個叫一般旅館可是我們這種分級其實不好旅館要國際化它一定是通盤往國際化走所以我們初步的話就把觀光旅館跟旅館分兩類然後就是走品牌所以這個新級的旅館確實要重新打造那我們希望"},{"start":628.279,"end":642.776,"text":"真的需要一點時間然後我們會跟旅宿業一起合作市長其實這種分類在你們內部管理上這個也是10年前就討論的議題就10年前去定義什麼叫觀光旅館、一般旅館其實10年前大家就挑戰了"},{"start":643.937,"end":670.455,"text":"這都是老生殘疾十年後我站在這裡我還是在跟你講這個事情你還是在跟本席報告這個事情所以這個已經沒有什麼拖不拖就是第一個叫你們怎麼管理啦你們內部對於這種分類有沒有意義譬如說你這個分類是有意義的因為我的標準要求不同那我的權利義務也不同那這樣當然有意義嘛就像你不會說我們蓋房子我們來分幾千萬以上叫豪宅豪宅的管理有豪宅的管理沒有它叫公寓大廈"},{"start":672.145,"end":699.745,"text":"就你長那個樣子有樓梯有什麼他就供一大下不會再分豪宅的歸豪宅沒有嘛你就是那因為是為什麼因為他權利義務責任什麼都差不多啦而且地方政府在管一般觀光旅館跟旅館對對阿但是問題是修法在立法院嘛是你們行政單位怎麼去修法立法院來審查所以重點還是你們對於整個台灣的旅館業怎麼管理嘛是那第二個我再請教我們星級旅館一年我們編多少預算來做"},{"start":700.923,"end":725.16,"text":"預算確實不多但是品牌沒關係不多是多少千萬還是百萬我們原則上大概就一千萬左右一千萬左右好那我再請教一下我看這個米其林他現在在做那個叫星藥就他的米其林一星二星三星這個米其林推薦這個是飲食餐飲那米其林現在對旅館他做這個藥食星藥"},{"start":729.438,"end":751.043,"text":"這是另外一個系統對是另外一個系統跟飲食不一樣所以他用鑰匙一個用星星一個用鑰匙不一樣好那這個台灣我看公布裡面沒有台灣嗎我們目前並沒有跟他合作對那有沒有打算乾脆跟他合作我們要評估一下他的制度對就是很簡單因為我們的旅館的我們現在邏輯是這樣我不是說"},{"start":752.545,"end":766.82,"text":"我對米其林我沒有什麼特別覺得他就一定好啦對我來講他就是不踩雷的代表啦就至少米其林推薦給你的不會是地雷啦但是你說好不好吃那個個人見仁見智好"},{"start":767.781,"end":787.044,"text":"現在我要跟你討論為什麼我們的新籍旅館評鑑會一直下來是因為消費者從來沒有對新籍台灣的這個品牌叫做台灣觀光署發的新籍旅館評鑑它有任何象徵的意義特別是10年前我認為多少還有一點點10年後的今天我認為它毫無意義"},{"start":787.845,"end":816.311,"text":"所以我的意思就是說花一千萬要打造這個品牌我認為難度很高就是你要打造到讓台灣的消費者國際消費者讓台灣認為星級旅館就是他的目標我覺得這個難所以你的第一個方法就是你要嘛你要做這些星級旅館你就不要弄那個什麼一千萬的啦外傳那個媒體寫的說跟米其林合作我們都花了六千萬在飲食的部分啦當然觀光局否認嘛我不去追究這個但重點是說"},{"start":817.54,"end":842.462,"text":"我們要打造品牌你就要真的花心思去打造讓這個品牌國際觀光客、台灣觀光客認為這個是絕對是保證至少對我來講他不踩雷嘛是保證然後你最好能做到大家以這個為追求的指標譬如說很多人為什麼米其林我們台灣要做是因為很多米其林的愛好者他為了追星他專程坐飛機來台灣吃米其林啊所以米其林對台灣的光光義義在這裡嘛"},{"start":844.312,"end":869.828,"text":"那回過頭來一樣的道理我們政府等於說我們在餐飲我們相信米其林可是我們在旅館上我們自己要搞一個旅館評鑑我們自己要搞一個星期旅館評鑑那你就要保證這個旅館評鑑你要搞得有聲有色讓大家至少他不要說贏米其林也不要說跟米其林一樣至少很接近大家也覺得喔這讚這個是有公信力這個是有價值的那旅館他花這個錢他才會來嗎"},{"start":871.705,"end":888.794,"text":"主席已經站很久我不忍心讓他站太久了我只把我的想法先告訴部長跟局長跟署長一定要這樣做嘛不然你就二選一你就乾脆不要花這個錢你乾脆就找米其林來合作嘛或者你還有其他的這個評鑑單位也是全球公信力所有的"},{"start":889.494,"end":894.478,"text":"有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司董事長、外交部國家公園署有限公司"},{"start":917.694,"end":918.14,"text":"好,謝謝蔡委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":756,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時48分）謝謝主席，請陳部長、航政司韓司長跟航港局葉局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、航港局葉局長跟司長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長、司長、局長，大家好。首先我先請教一下，擱淺在野柳外海的中國籍貨輪，現在的狀況怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：今天早上我們的抽油船終於可以靠過去了，前幾天其實每一天都有派抽油船過來，但因為海象不允許，它的海浪大概都到4米，要2米以下才可以作業，今天已經靠過去，作業人員也都已經上去難船上了，已經開始在做前置作業了。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。那油抽完了之後接下來呢？"],["陳部長世凱：應該會在原地做拆解的動作，是不是請局長說明？"],["蔡委員其昌：來，局長。"],["葉局長協隆：跟委員報告，我們現在最優先的任務就是把油抽完，因為要化解污染的風險。第二個就是船貨的移除，我們會設法儘量，除了現地拆解這個方案之外，我們通常會設法以浮揚方式移除，讓它能夠被拖帶離開這個擱淺的位置。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你現在先處理油，接下來油處理完了，再來處理貨？"],["葉局長協隆：船跟貨。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，那船你要就地拆解掉嗎？"],["葉局長協隆：沒有，我們會要求保險公司提出對環境影響最小的方案。"],["陳部長世凱：希望以拖走為優先，但是如果拖不走，就必須要就地拆解。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，局長，在國際上處理擱淺，大家都是怎麼處理？"],["葉局長協隆：報告委員，以這個案子來講，這個都是國際上知名的保險公司，所以……"],["蔡委員其昌：保險公司是一個問題，保險公司那是事後等到事情有了結論之後看該怎麼賠，那保險公司要出面賠嘛！"],["葉局長協隆：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是說國際面對……我舉一個例子，第一個，船擱淺後可能會漏油，我看我們能做的就是七早八早就把攔油繩先弄出來。"],["葉局長協隆：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個，如果貨輪上面載的是危險物品，那可能問題更嚴重，因為可能會有其他的污染，甚至爆炸，anyway，反正上面的貨如果是危險物品，不知道會有什麼問題，所以國際上的處理方式是跟我們一樣，就是等到穩定之後，先抽油再解決貨，然後再處理，看要怎麼處理對船的影響最小，在國際上都是這樣子嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那國際有救援船，臺灣到今天為止連一艘救援船都沒有，我們派海巡去只是把人載走，對於那一艘船怎麼處置我們臺灣其實是無能為力的，簡單講，它如果漏油，我們就讓它漏，等漏完再來索賠嘛！"],["葉局長協隆：對，報告委員，這個部分現在我們比較欠缺的是拖船的能量。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，不管是把它推到更外海或者拉進來，我們都沒有嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["葉局長協隆：現在國內的拖船都是港內型的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我們沒有那麼大的救援船。"],["葉局長協隆：跟委員報告，在行政院的支持下、在交通部的支持下，今年行政院已經核定我們明年要來推動一艘大型的拖救船。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那這個大型拖救船的營運是在港務公司嗎？"],["葉局長協隆：沒有，我們會招商，會有一家專業的廠商來負責操作。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以從明年我們開始打造第一艘臺灣的救援船，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：明年下半年。"],["葉局長協隆：是的，是第一艘。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我的重點就是我希望明年真的要落實這個事情。"],["陳部長世凱：是，明年下半年會招商。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為臺灣四面環海，我在關心這個問題的時候剛好在野柳外海有這個事件，事實上，之前在7月、10月你們陸續通報的事件……"],["陳部長世凱：是，已經好幾艘了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，幾乎每一年都有很多條船擱淺，我其實很不同意在事後大家再來看要怎麼處理，在臺灣譬如說野柳外海，甚至有一些更是海洋生態豐富的地方，它污染了這些地方，然後我們在污染之後再開始跟人家說你要賠我錢，我們應該是想辦法阻止，不要讓它污染嘛！我看國際的救援，譬如說以日本來講，可能是用大型的救援船把那個擱淺的船推出去，或者如果可以拉進來處理的，就把它拉進來，不管是往外推、往內拉，人家都有積極作為的方法，可是我們的方法就是沒有作為，反正我就給它爛，爛了之後我們再來講你要賠我多少，可是我們都知道，對海洋的污染、對於生態，我們現在談SDGs、談ESG，那事情都已經發生了，我們才在事後講那個賠償，我認為這個作法上消極。"],["陳部長世凱：對，就像委員所說的，過去沒有這個拖船的設施，確實只能消極處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯。"],["陳部長世凱：未來如果有拖船，我們就可以積極處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，部長，這個一定要督促，明年不管你們營運的方式是政府來經營，或者是政府跟民間合作，或者你們直接招標、委託給民間經營，本席都贊成，但是重點就是我們要趕快積極來做，說實在話，臺灣在今天講的這個方面有一點漏氣，已經那麼久的時間，然後我們四面環海，每一年這種案例都那麼多，但我們卻都是以無能為力的方式在處理，以消極的方式在處理，我覺得這個不妥。所以你們這一次要來做這個事情，本席是很支持，但是我會很擔心，說到就要做到，不要等明年來立法院的時候說又遇到什麼問題。"],["陳部長世凱：在明年下半年大概這艘船就能到了。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，謝謝，三位請回。接下來我請觀光署署長。"],["主席：請周署長。"],["周署長永暉：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：署長好。署長，本席已經8年時間沒有待在交通委員會，在10年前我就在這個臺上非常關心旅館的星級認證，在當時我就已經預測這個星級認證會越來越糟糕，第一個，業者參與的程度越來越低，有參與的人，就算觀光署去鼓勵、去拜託，或者他自己有需求，可是得到星級認證在消費者心目當中已經不算一個事了，現在消費者對於交通部觀光署所做的星級認證已經不再作為一個住宿的指標，所以長期下來這種就叫惡性循環，就是我得獎也沒什麼，我參加了就要繳費，然後我得到這個獎我也沒有好處，所以我就不參加，因為都不參加，你看星級旅館那個認證的家數，在104年是606家，逐年一直下降，到了113年剩下一百多家。我認為如果我們不理它，就讓它繼續留在那裡，不思任何的改進，或者你乾脆把它廢掉，或者你要把它留著，很好！我也不會反對，但是你就要看怎麼做來讓它可以起死回生，否則這個早晚就是歸零，就會越來越少，到了一個懸崖邊，它就會直接快速下降，比如說到最後剩下三、五十家，那三、五十家可能隔年就歸零了，因為就是沒用，做這個要幹嘛呢？所以第一個我想要讓署長來重視這個問題。"],["周署長永暉：是，跟委員報告一下，星級旅館還是非常重要的，在疫情之後星級旅館確實是急速的下降，也利用這個機會跟委員報告一下，其實我們有做了兩件事，第一個，我們跟國際接軌，我們也用澳洲的標準，所以我們有一個五星outstanding的，應該是俗稱的六星級飯店，這一次已經有兩家六星級的飯店，對這個星級的部分我們也重新調配，也就是它的KPI會不一樣，所以現在就是整備的部分、盤整的部分已經完成了。再來是我們怎麼樣做到double，就是我們怎麼樣把星級旅館變成一個重要的品牌，在這個部分，我們第二階段希望星級旅館跟我們的旅宿網……因為旅宿網還推了類似平價的旅館，它都是合法的，而且是對大家有保障的。剛剛正好召委也是關心台灣觀光協會，那台灣觀光協會也有很多星級旅館在裡面，所以我們也希望透過台灣觀光協會跟我們星級旅館的協會做一些串接，我們希望做一些鼓勵性的引客，現在我們還在做修法，我們現在有三種旅館，一個叫做國際觀光旅館，一個叫做一般觀光旅館，一個叫一般旅館，可是我們這種分級其實不好，因為旅館要國際化，它一定是通盤往國際化走，所以我們初步就把觀光旅館跟旅館分兩類，然後就是走品牌，所以這個星級的旅館確實要重新打造，我們真的需要一點時間，我們會跟旅宿業一起合作。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，署長，其實這種分類在你們內部管理上，這個也是10年前就在討論的議題，就是10年前去定義什麼叫觀光旅館、一般旅館，其實在10年前大家就挑戰了，這都是老生常談，可是10年後我站在這裡，我還是在跟你講這個事情，你還是在跟本席報告這個事情，所以這個已經沒有什麼拖不拖，第一個就是你們怎麼管理，你們內部對於這種分類有沒有意義，譬如說你這個分類是有意義的，因為我的標準、要求不同，我的權利義務也不同，這樣當然有意義嘛！就像我們蓋房子，你不會說我們來分幾千萬以上叫豪宅，然後對豪宅有不同的管理，沒有！它叫公寓大廈，就是長那個樣子，有樓梯、有什麼，它就是公寓大廈，不會再去分它是不是豪宅，沒有嘛！為什麼？因為它的權利義務、責任什麼都差不多啦！"],["周署長永暉：而且是地方政府在管一般觀光旅館跟旅館。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，但是問題是修法在立法院，看你們行政單位怎麼去修法，由立法院來審查，所以重點還是你們對於整個台灣的旅館業怎麼管理嘛！"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個我再請教，我們星級旅館一年編多少預算來做？"],["周署長永暉：預算確實不多，但是品牌……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，不多是多少？千萬還是百萬？"],["周署長永暉：原則上大概就1,000萬左右。"],["蔡委員其昌：1,000萬左右？"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那我再請教一下，我看這個米其林現在在做「星鑰」，米其林一星、二星、三星及米其林推薦是針對餐飲，針對旅館則是星鑰。"],["周署長永暉：這是另外一個系統。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，是另外一個系統，跟飲食不一樣，它用鑰匙。一個用星星，一個用鑰匙，不一樣。我看他們公布的資料裡面沒有臺灣嘛！"],["周署長永暉：我們目前並沒有跟它合作。"],["蔡委員其昌：有沒有打算乾脆跟它合作？"],["周署長永暉：我們要評估一下它的制度。"],["蔡委員其昌：很簡單嘛……"],["周署長永暉：因為我們旅館的……"],["蔡委員其昌：署長，我們現在的邏輯是這樣，我對米其林並沒有特別覺得它就一定好，對我來講，它就是不踩雷的代表，至少米其林推薦的不會是地雷，但是你說好不好吃？那就看個人、見仁見智。好，現在我要跟你討論，為什麼我們的星級旅館評鑑家數會一直減少？是因為消費者從來沒有認為台灣品牌，也就是他們不認為台灣觀光署發布的星級旅館評鑑有任何象徵的意義，十年前我認為多少還有一點點，十年後的今天，我認為它毫無意義。所以我的意思就是說，花1,000萬要打造這個品牌，我認為難度很高，因為你要打造到讓台灣的消費者和國際消費者來到台灣，認為星級旅館就是他的目標，我覺得這個很難。所以你的第一個方法，就是要做星級旅館評鑑的話，就不要弄那個什麼1,000萬的啦！媒體寫的，外傳我們跟米其林合作花了6,000萬，這是在飲食的部分，當然觀光署否認，我也不去追究這個，但重點是說，我們要打造品牌就要真的花心思去打造，讓這個品牌被國際觀光客、台灣觀光客認為絕對是有保證的，至少對我來講，它不踩雷、是有保證的，然後你最好能做到大家以這個為追求的指標。","譬如說，為什麼我們台灣要做米其林？因為很多米其林的愛好者為了追星，會專程坐飛機來台灣吃米其林啊！所以米其林對台灣的觀光意義在這裡。回過頭來也是一樣的道理，等於餐飲方面我們相信米其林，可是在旅館方面，我們自己要搞一個星級旅館評鑑，那你就要保證這個旅館評鑑要搞得有聲有色，不要說贏米其林，也不要說跟米其林一樣，可是讓它至少很接近，這樣大家也會覺得這個讚！它是有公信力、有價值的，旅館花了這個錢，觀光客才會來嘛！","主席已經站很久了，我不忍心讓他站太久啦！我只是把我的想法告訴部長跟署長，一定要這樣做嘛！不然你就二選一，乾脆不要花這個錢，就找米其林來合作嘛！或者還有其他的評鑑單位也在全球具有公信力，所有的旅宿業者或者是所有的旅客都會因為是它推薦的品牌而想去住一下，這個就是觀光啊！當旅客人數不夠多的時候，大家為什麼要在餐飲方面跟米其林合作，以及在旅館方面跟星鑰合作？就是因為經過它認證，就會有誘因讓人家為此而來。OK，參考一下，好不好？時間到了，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","接下來有請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-8","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林沛祥","林國成","何欣純","游顥","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","蔡其昌","徐富癸","許智傑","王鴻薇","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","麥玉珍","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","陳俊宇","林月琴","陳冠廷","黃國昌","林倩綺","黃健豪"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2024-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部觀光署署長、交通部民用航空局局長、交通部航港局局長、\n國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長、桃園國際機場股份有限\n公司董事長、臺灣港務股份有限公司董事長、外交部、內政部國家公園署、農業部林業及自然保\n育署及行政院消費者保護處就「如何提升國外旅客來台觀光人數暨優化國旅體驗及降低旅遊消費\n爭議」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部觀光署署長、交通部公路局局長、交通部高速\n公路局局長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長及桃園國際\n機場股份有限公司董事長就「2025台灣燈會辦理情形暨交通疏運方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}