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地原住民的劃分這是已經是一個非常久的部分"},{"start":2045.14,"end":2049.085,"text":"原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2063.588,"end":2066.249,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2084.507,"end":2097.899,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提出修正條文。」本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提出修正條文。」"},{"start":2109.329,"end":2131.048,"text":"而每一次主任委員事實上他的時間也沒辦法前面的去每個地方然後所了解的也是有限所以比較常年比較多的就是平地原住民的"},{"start":2131.869,"end":2133.25,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2141.141,"end":2145.203,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":2169.248,"end":2174.878,"text":"有關主任委員即將經過地方民意的"},{"start":2176.477,"end":2200.414,"text":"同意這個部分當初之所以會提這個部分最主要就是蘇貞昌當院長的時候一直強調要分流自治因為《原住民組織法》一直在過去的八年多來唯一沒有提出《原住民組織法》任內的總統就是過去的八年"},{"start":2201.235,"end":2230.481,"text":"那未來恐怕也是很難很難很難送來所以這個部分才會有所謂的分流竟然院長、處院長有所謂的分流自治才會提出這個部分但是因為上次討論的時候大家有有不同的意見所以我就把這個這個部分有有做一個修正動議有修正動議然後我也另外提出了這個另案另行"},{"start":2231.616,"end":2245.908,"text":"提案也把這個部分刪除了所以這個部分目前就我新的提案是沒有包含這個部分就是第三條的第二項是沒有包含那另外就是族群委員的部分了"},{"start":2246.869,"end":2271.018,"text":"主委的部分我上次也講過了因為現在的族群委員的代表性已經沒有這個過去像這個族群委員能夠代表這個族群能夠具有這個族群的一個相當的地位這個基本上就已經沒有這樣的一個功能了所以我才會把它改為無極值那事實上這個"},{"start":2273.57,"end":2276.872,"text":"原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2294.324,"end":2301.307,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":2325.285,"end":2325.785,"text":"請出席黨團代表表示意見"},{"start":2342.11,"end":2366.398,"text":"好 謝謝那我代表民進黨團先發言那針對今天我們司法跟內政併案審查的原住民委員會的組織法關於第三條跟第四條那第三條有講到由山地原住民與平地原住民輪流擔任但是這個輪流擔任這樣的意思就代表說山地原住民做完再換原地"},{"start":2366.818,"end":2388.682,"text":"平地原住民當然首先一開始我是認為說一樣是原住民有必要再去把它區分叫做山地原住民跟平地原住民這個是我一開始我就覺得當然原住民會有不同的族不同的族之間然後要保留各族的文化這個我們是認為支持的但是如果你要把它再化作"},{"start":2389.142,"end":2410.762,"text":"三地跟平地這樣的區分是否是有意義的區分這個是我一開始我心裡就會想不過當然法律上是有去定義三地跟平地那主委的任命由三地跟平地輪流擔任這件事情那萬一如果今天是一個平地原住民那他確實擔任不錯"},{"start":2413.103,"end":2436.093,"text":"確實做得不錯,然後也受到整個原住民民族覺得這個組委真的做得不錯,但是因為整個內閣,如果內閣總辭,內閣總辭後又提名,又要新的重組內閣,那麼就輪流擔任,這個讓覺得做得不錯,就不能再被提名,因為卡到輪流擔任,就一定要換下一個就是由"},{"start":2437.615,"end":2442.241,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":2452.555,"end":2477.327,"text":"所以我覺得這樣輪流擔任就有為責任政治的一個精神那至於副主委的部分如果同時間幾位副主委要有平地原住民同時也應該要有三地原住民就是說兩個不同的同時都要在副主委那我想就可以兼顧到原住民他們會擔心平地跟三地是否會有照顧沒有辦法周全的狀況所以我是覺得我們在第三條的時候我們要用平地跟"},{"start":2482.469,"end":2490.555,"text":"三地來做輪流擔任這個我覺得是沒有必要而且也不符合責任政治那第四條的規定就是要把這個"},{"start":2494.122,"end":2505.247,"text":"這個原住民委員會的委員這一個把它無幾職要把它改成無幾職那我想原住民委員會的組織原住民委員會的委員他是有幾職這個從過去到現在那主要他並不是一個任務性的編組他是等於一個長職而且這一些委員也確實他都會在這一些原鄉裡面然後會"},{"start":2520.013,"end":2543.463,"text":"本院委員會在地方,他可能要去聽取一些地方意見,然後或者是跟原住民互動,然後去整合意見,然後再給整個原住民委員會來做他整個政策上的一個推動。那既然說這一些他是有任務,有常態性任務是由他去做的,那所以我們給他相對應讓他有一些知己,"},{"start":2544.502,"end":2547.084,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":2563.601,"end":2588.879,"text":"國民黨重新執政後,又要把它改成郵寄職,那何必這樣去做呢?因為大家都覺得說,為什麼會有原住民?就是過去,可能在於整個漢人的文化裡面,原住民受到了剝削,所以大家認為說,我們現在台灣是基於尊重原住民文化,然後我們所以有這樣的一個特定的組織,那我們現在既然也覺得說,他們可能要在那裡跑,"},{"start":2591.954,"end":2593.435,"text":"那還有沒有哪一位黨團代表要表示意見?"},{"start":2593.435,"end":2596.538,"text":"那還有沒有哪一位黨團代表要表示意見?"},{"start":2625.999,"end":2636.27,"text":"中委員對不起其實我都尊重國民黨或者民眾黨看要不要先發言那我來講一下我這個這個比較"},{"start":2638.368,"end":2662.194,"text":"不一樣的一個看法啦我們這個原民會的一個組織法第三條裡面本來是我們設置一個主任委員特任原住民來擔任本來是這樣那現在呢你又把它區分說是由山地跟平地原住民輪流擔任我一直在想說其實台灣的原住民也不是只有"},{"start":2663.422,"end":2669.404,"text":"三地原住民也不是只有平地原住民那現在平埔族你叫他怎麼辦"},{"start":2671.513,"end":2694.08,"text":"我們總不能說你們要來尊重我們我們要來尊重我們那我們就跟人家說你那個平埔族不算這樣講就不好了吧基於各個民族的這樣的一個尊重你像比如說我們這個新法政法條文裡面去強調保障原住民族的一個地位但是我們在內政委員會我們討論了多少次"},{"start":2696.021,"end":2710.19,"text":"這111年作成的憲判制第17號判決意旨裡面就是強調這個平埔族也應該具有相同的一個地位那像鄭委員應該我沒有記錯的話是阿美族阿美族的代表阿美族的驕傲對不對所以我們兩個常常會跑來跑去吵來吵去我都覺得"},{"start":2716.203,"end":2718.305,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：請審議"},{"start":2735.427,"end":2752.12,"text":"原住民平地原住民輪流看起來公平但我也覺得不對因為變成說原住民裡面刻意去把它做一個分化這個也沒有必要啦我覺得沒有必要啦我是認為3地原住民有資格來當組委"},{"start":2754.562,"end":2773.465,"text":"平地原住民當然也有資格來當,平埔族他也有資格來當,我這樣認為啦。那如果要這樣分的話,真的要細分的話,那現在這16族裡面,我可以講說好啊,那個鄭天財表現最優秀,阿美族第一個輪流。"},{"start":2774.858,"end":2776.881,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":2792.201,"end":2809.541,"text":"原住民的身份你就可以來當這個組委我覺得這樣會比較好一點因為畢竟不是只有山地跟高山原住民你還有一個評估組除非你認為說那個憲法法庭亂判的沒有人敢這樣講"},{"start":2811.53,"end":2832.288,"text":"你這樣講就沒道理了,你這樣講,那一個判決出來是為了尊重原住民族,所以這個不要基於自己喔,自己主觀上的一個好惡,我覺得也不好啦,我覺得這樣也不好。請教召委的就是說,我們現在一個一個條文來是吧,還是要全部,就先第三條來是吧,如果第三條來我就先講到這個地方。"},{"start":2832.608,"end":2862.088,"text":"我們就直接一起一起一起這樣比較有效率那也可以啦我那我是覺得像譬如說那你如果說講到第四條本來委員這個19到29人各族代表一人依聘用條例來做一個聘用那其他你就認為說全部都是無幾值那我們現在修正條文是19到29人這個部分全部都是無幾值每一個族群都有一個我是有一個代表我覺得正當合法"},{"start":2863.409,"end":2877.678,"text":"也合理啦原民委員本來是有幾職然後各族群的一個代表性來的一定有代表性你搭配著專家學者來肩負這樣的一個專業性我一直認為這個是"},{"start":2879.119,"end":2904.321,"text":"非常兩全其美的一個設計就像我們立法院裡面一樣每一個政黨有區域立委代表整個區域裡面選民的心聲各政黨也有部分區同時也代表的民運代表也各捐具像很多委員也都有他的一個專業性韓國昌委員也好麥委員也好都有他自己的專業性那也可以容納多元的一個聲音"},{"start":2906.431,"end":2930.567,"text":"我是覺得我在我都不想陷入說原民跟原民委員之間的一個競爭但是我比較持平的看就是說再思考一下啦高度再拉高一點思考一下倒也不是說每一個政黨要輪流執政改來改去的一個問題啦過去如果現在這個狀況過去也發生那過去因為我自己執政"},{"start":2935.083,"end":2937.404,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。」 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":2964.438,"end":2969.569,"text":"民主的一個政策、制度、計劃跟相關法規的先期的一個審查。 這個其實是很龐大的。"},{"start":2973.679,"end":2986.984,"text":"有需要用心還有委員會裡面的一個會議的一個重要議案的一個掀起的一個審議甚至與相關機關原住民族事務的掀起協調聯繫主持到參與族群相關的一個會議調查研究協調除非我們發現這個委員你把他推舉出來以後他全部都沒事幹"},{"start":2998.709,"end":3001.45,"text":"不能光一個組織的話我相信你說無幾職也好奇怪也好奇怪所以這些事情我把它看完以後連組織還有出席專案小組的一個會議參加這個族群碎石的一個祭儀民俗文化跟傳統祭儀跟演慶典跟活動還有辦理那個主委交辦事項等正職的這些工作我看過就覺得這些工作"},{"start":3028.7,"end":3050.238,"text":"立法委員除了還要一個跑選區以外我相信這些委員他其實也都肩負著很大的一個責任所以你就全部要把他變成無極職真的我也請我們在場的不同政黨的委員大家再來做一個善施連立法委員你跟他講說你們立法委員全部都是無極職部分區一定跳腳"},{"start":3054.414,"end":3070.451,"text":"部分區一定跟你講說我很專業我不用選舉而已我要勞心我要勞力我的能力都不輸給你們我本身這世界裡面我有兩屆是區域接下來我兩屆是部分區我也不覺得說我到了部分區以後"},{"start":3071.232,"end":3094.209,"text":"我對整個立法院的一個貢獻、心力、投注就會比較少所以區域的如果跟他講說不溫區的全部都不用薪水我會跟你說你回去睡覺吧你乾脆不要選要沒薪水大家都來沒薪水要沒薪水大家都來沒薪水所以你把這個我們是基於整個對原住民族的一個尊重跟他重視讓這些委員本來是有幾職那後來因為這一些小波折我會覺得"},{"start":3099.893,"end":3114.786,"text":"有過的地方啊去改進提名的部分不適合的部分那你怎麼樣一個政黨裡面你要被挨罵本來就是合理但是就是要殺手竟然全部都變成無極職我看到居然講說乾脆立法院全部都無極職算了"},{"start":3115.782,"end":3115.802,"text":"黃委員"},{"start":3143.317,"end":3164.698,"text":"謝謝主席其實每次黨團協商的時候我就希望說大家之前有的論述在討論條文的時候其實我覺得都各自表述過了啦那黨團協商基本上就是一個交換意見跟立場的平台能夠達成共識是很好那沒有辦法達成共識就沒有辦法達成共識嘛要不然"},{"start":3169.696,"end":3188.727,"text":"針對有關原住民族的事務那台灣民眾黨黨團我們會很虛心的去聆聽我們原住民族朋友的心聲跟想法因為自己不是原住民有的時候不要表現得太"},{"start":3190.307,"end":3202.888,"text":"就自己不是就虛心一點多聽人家的聲音跟想法這個是我向來在面對原住民族事務的時候我以一貫的立場跟看法"},{"start":3205.898,"end":3231.844,"text":"針對這件事情的決定上一次在條文討論的時候我想某個程度上我的想法跟立場已經表達得非常清楚了沒有必要今天利用這個機會全部重新再講一次只不過是台灣民眾黨團八位委員因為我看今天要協商有共識基本上是"},{"start":3233.223,"end":3247.8,"text":"看起來難度非常的高啦趨近於不可能但我也不要先預設立場那我們八位委員會虛心的聆聽各界的聲音特別是我們原住民朋友的想法然後做我們最終的決定"},{"start":3251.841,"end":3276.588,"text":"不過剛好利用協商的這個機會今天因為處理到第四條也是我之前在討論的時候關心的議題我有比較深的感觸請園民會的朋友稍微聽一下我比較深的感觸是什麼台灣民眾黨黨團不大只有八名委員"},{"start":3278.308,"end":3303.81,"text":"這八名委員可能在原民會的長官眼中看起來微不足道所以對於我們黨團希望要求你們提供的東西你們大概是用最隨便的態度來應付我為什麼這樣講我第一次請黨團發文給你們原民會結果回我兩張新聞稿"},{"start":3306.479,"end":3335.496,"text":"我如果要拿新聞稿我需要透過黨團發文嗎?我不會Google嗎?我不會上原民會的網站嗎?我為了這個事情我在內政委員會正式提案跟你們要資料我上質詢台的時候我跟你們主委講得很清楚我跟你們所知你們發兩張新聞稿給我搞到我要到委員會去提案去要資料"},{"start":3339.66,"end":3363.056,"text":"讓我覺得很難過,我希望這件事不要再發生了。那天主委在備訓台應該在內政委員會諮詢,跟我說不會,以後絕對不會再發生了。結果,我們在討論第四條的時候,跟你要第四條相關的資料,我也感謝高金委員發文,知道我關心這個議題,有副本給我。"},{"start":3364.369,"end":3392.659,"text":"剛我看到高金委員手上有厚厚一疊資料我看了覺得很奇怪啊怎麼你有我沒有他說我有副本給我我剛去了解是你們只回高金委員沒有回文給我沒有附件所以我覺得感慨很深啊我對原民的朋友在任何的議題上面我們向來是大力支持不懂的事情我就虛心的聽"},{"start":3394.899,"end":3419.111,"text":"虛心的學習希望在立法院行使職權的時候能夠做出對原民的朋友最好的決定但是在原民會的眼中台灣民眾黨可能只是一個小小的黨團沒有幾席立委是用這樣子的態度在面對我們讓我感觸非常非常的深但我也不會因此而改變我們本來應該有的初衷"},{"start":3423.021,"end":3440.647,"text":"在這件事情的決定上我們會很負責任的聽各界的意見做出我們最後投票的決斷但我只希望原民會的朋友在處理一些行政事務的時候請不要差別待遇的這麼嚴重"},{"start":3442.572,"end":3461.165,"text":"請不要差別待遇得這麼嚴重我今天只是剛好利用協商的會場跟協商有關係的基礎資料我看到差別這麼大有感而發其他更深層的問題我不會在協商的現場講提醒主委下一次內政委員會他來備詢的時候我會過去質詢謝謝"},{"start":3472.813,"end":3499.91,"text":"真的有黃國昌委員講的這種事嗎?我想可能有點誤會就是因為我們提供給高金委員的資料就是高金委員在要求的這個相關資料我們都給那副本給黃委員我們一般副本我們就沒有去做處理我們都會針對正版黃國昌委員這樣對你們的指控不要說他啦如果是我我也受不了喔"},{"start":3501.771,"end":3523.258,"text":"哪有什麼兩個委員你說高金委員跟你要資料你給他完整的你給我的是兩張我也會跟你拍桌喔這個話要先講清楚至於黃委員之前要的資料因為我不太清楚他是要什麼資料是不是我們提供的時候這個要的這個資料不明確我們在那個會議在內政委會已經有給黃委員說明了"},{"start":3530.024,"end":3552.196,"text":"因為剛剛那個吳委員有先舉手是還是說我知道我解釋一下因為現在莊委員也在對原民會有一點我還原一下我還原一下吼那的確我們在上一次在這邊協商完畢了之後的當天黃國昌委員有回到內政委員會裡面去質詢了我們的主委"},{"start":3552.896,"end":3571.903,"text":"他不是公文給你們他是直接請別民會主委提供資料給他我是公文給你們主委有在當天的質詢台上回應黃國昌主委說他要回去把所有的資料給他"},{"start":3572.763,"end":3591.816,"text":"這是我看到的所以我必須要講清楚所以莊委員不要生氣我另外的行文給他是他給我的只是他把這個給我的副本再交給黃國昌委員但是事實上在內政委員會的質詢的時候黃國昌委員有質詢一項不是曾竹偉"},{"start":3592.496,"end":3617.411,"text":"曾主委嘴巴上已經答應他說會把推薦的這些族群委員你推薦幾位哪幾位推薦他甚至還說行政院有推薦所以他說能不能把這個資料全部提供出來這是我聽到完整的曾主委的回應為什麼今天黃國昌委員會那麼生氣就是這樣以上我來補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":3620.672,"end":3642.719,"text":"我先回應黃委員剛剛提到新聞稿這個部分黃委員當時要資料是要我們主委到帛琉擔任特使的行程但是因為外交部給我們建議是因為我們當時主委還在帛琉所以我們提他叫我們建議我們就是提供這個擔任特使的新聞稿這是第一個就是在"},{"start":3649.68,"end":3667.685,"text":"主要是因為高金委員他請問根本要資料的時候有把黃委員辦公室掛在副本這裡但是我們一般處理公文我們就直接針對正本所以回應了這個高金委員所以我們給高金委員資料都是高金委員要什麼我們大概都給了那另外一個關於"},{"start":3669.305,"end":3697.538,"text":"黃委員在內政委員會要求主委提供資料我們都提供我們會提供副主委這個再請你們跟黃國昌委員解釋一下然後或者是再把資料補齊給他那這樣好不好你們跟他解釋一下我想他也不是不講理啦就是你們雙方溝通不要誤會就好"},{"start":3699.039,"end":3699.319,"text":"主席吳委員"},{"start":3717.348,"end":3744.027,"text":"協商那我也特別去看了一下這個原民會的組織法是什麼時候公布施行是在10年前103年那因此我也特別去看了當時整個立法的一個過程那我看到的就是說這個部分今天在場的兩位委員鄭天財委員高金委員都有提案版本"},{"start":3745.034,"end":3770.273,"text":"那甚至是有很多的條文都是按照院版按照委員們的版本這樣子通過的所以我今天十年之後回到這個地方我也很想了解是什麼原因要去做這個第三條跟第四條的修法那我就就第三條第四條每一個修正重點我來做一個我的看法"},{"start":3771.875,"end":3793.036,"text":"鄭天財委員他第三條他有三個修正重點那第一個部分就是提到主委要山平原輪流那其實對我來講我不能接受為什麼因為我就一向主張山平原是很錯誤的歷史的殖民遺序分類"},{"start":3794.662,"end":3811.69,"text":"對我們中華民國這個民主憲政國家其實在我們的憲法上面有這樣的一個分類我就已經覺得很丟臉但是很可惜雖然上次的修憲委員有提但是沒有被這樣子認同但是我們會繼續努力"},{"start":3815.091,"end":3818.596,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：請審議"},{"start":3830.934,"end":3853.386,"text":"三元平原到底為什麼要三平原輪流我是覺得說我們倒不如把利器放在真的我們就把這個三平原不當的歷史的分類我們就把它拿掉這是我第一個意見第二個部分修正重點是提到說這個組委要經過原住民的議員相長這個沒有了嗎"},{"start":3859.497,"end":3883.263,"text":"好 這個已經確定沒有了齁對 因為這個真的是我覺得真的是因為有違憲的疑慮嘛齁那我們就不談了齁那任期四年的部分我個人就是如果這個第二沒有所以任期四年也沒有了嗎喔 任期四年也沒有了所以只留下三平原"},{"start":3885.952,"end":3886.893,"text":"原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":3906.631,"end":3933.584,"text":"韓光所以一直以來如果說原民會能夠有所謂的政委然後兼任原民會主委那麼他們就可以去做一個調度統合對我們整個原住民事務的推動我相信是會大大的加分那只是說這個部分會不會也要連動去修行政院的組織法"},{"start":3934.844,"end":3956.397,"text":"這個部分就留給大家討論但是基本上我的立場我是真的覺得說可以這個是我個人的一個意見關於第四條的部分我也要說明一下因為第四條我有特別去翻條文所以我也想聽聽看"},{"start":3959.81,"end":3980.002,"text":"因為當時103年公佈那當時我看到這個第四條現在的條文就是高金素梅委員的版本也就是院版然後鄭天財委員的版本其實是更前進的他希望這些族群委員是"},{"start":3981.455,"end":4002.14,"text":"簡任十三指等比現在的版本十二指等還要更高經過了十年是什麼原因這個部分我就不予置評但是我想要去討論一下因為我很難過我把這個稱作是自我閹割因為我們"},{"start":4007.346,"end":4030.614,"text":"現在像我們跟客委會那些就不一樣他們是諮詢委員然後我不理解然後我最不理解的是說我們到底懂不懂原住民族族群委員真正的意涵委員會真正的意涵我們原住民族在台灣未來可能還超越16族這麼多的族群"},{"start":4033.891,"end":4047.524,"text":"然後由一個單一族群的人擔任主委而且他還不是真正的所謂的一個委員制不是由各族群推派代表再由這些代表推舉主委副主委"},{"start":4049.602,"end":4063.914,"text":"那我們現在這樣的方式一個單一族群的族委他要怎麼樣去做全國原住民族族群的事務所以我們才會跟別人不一樣我們才會有所謂的有幾職的族群委員"},{"start":4064.955,"end":4079.798,"text":"我不理解為什麼要自我閹割一方面說我們要爭取像是禁法補償原住民的權益一方面我們又要去把我們原住民的服務能量把它毀滅掉這個要對歷史負責啊我真的不理解我們前面的人這麼辛苦"},{"start":4088.669,"end":4117.34,"text":"去弄出這樣的一個組織法那今天要自我閹割我是真的不理解那第二個我要特別談聘用委員他們是聘用委員我也去調了資料我看到他們的聘書啊因為我以前也不清楚到底族群委員是是怎麼選出來是在做哪些事他們的工作"},{"start":4118.496,"end":4119.517,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4140.532,"end":4162.625,"text":"所以他們等於是在代替我們整個原住民族委員會來去做各地的一個地方事務工作內容非常的繁雜非常的辛苦那我是希望說主席有沒有可能下一次請族群委員來講話因為我也不知道到底他們覺得如何"},{"start":4164.751,"end":4172.315,"text":"這個我是覺得說這個部分我覺得不應該我其實上一次第一次聽到的時候我心裡很難過我覺得為什麼我們原住民族人做事為政府做事我們只能無幾值嗎我們不配領薪水嗎所以我覺得這個部分我真的完全不能理解"},{"start":4192.591,"end":4210.797,"text":"那再來就是他是一個行政團隊的概念阿我上次也是嚇了一跳說綠油油所以呢我也特別去調了資料我們來看一下阿不是就是這樣嗎新竹市政府的勒"},{"start":4222.472,"end":4230.877,"text":"高鴻安去當了新竹市市長我們也看到所有的民眾黨的團隊也都進去當幕僚團隊阿不是嗎那邊有圖卡那馬英九時期的馬英九時期的族群委員我也特別去調阿阿不就是長這樣嗎所以我不太理解為什麼要這樣子就是"},{"start":4252.523,"end":4254.886,"text":"去自我毀滅自我閹割然後自我矮化自我汙名化我真的是沒有辦法理解所以我今天特別到這個地方來講"},{"start":4265.304,"end":4291.877,"text":"那我相信我們的族群聘用委員他確實有他的存在但是我更重要的我要講的是當他是一個行政團隊的概念的時候我們應該著重的是他的工作態度他的遴選方法還有我們所謂的行政團隊的人才培育所以我覺得這個部分這一次我有感受到受侮辱"},{"start":4295.899,"end":4320.584,"text":"我真的覺得嚴重受侮辱真的然後原住民自己這樣子我真的覺得不可思議自己的版本十年之後要這樣子自我矮化自我嚴格自我污名化真的我不理解所以請大家我們就三思謝謝我會再繼續發言"},{"start":4326.537,"end":4343.952,"text":"中招委首先對於第三條保留鄭天財委員所說的輪流擔任這樣的一個機制或者是其實應該更精確來說是翁曉琳鄭天財委員所提的"},{"start":4345.273,"end":4369.945,"text":"這個原住民委員會的組委由山原或平原的族群身份的輪流擔任其實這樣的一個想法很容易理解其實不要說是山原、平原在各式各樣的族群當中性別各式各樣的很清楚的一個可以分類的團體當中都會出現這樣的一個要求其實在台灣的"},{"start":4371.286,"end":4379.082,"text":"地方選舉的地方自治的傳統當中比如說桃園就有長期以來所謂的閩客"},{"start":4380.222,"end":4381.903,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":4410.162,"end":4411.703,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4426.5,"end":4452.101,"text":"我父親的身份是客家,那麼對於客家委員會也常常有要求南客跟北客要有均衡的對待,所以因此剛剛翁小林委員版跟鄭天財委員版有提到說如果原住民族當中在台灣的確有三原跟平原的分類,所以希望能夠均勻的照顧到單一族群不被"},{"start":4453.373,"end":4462.396,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。"},{"start":4482.683,"end":4510.505,"text":"那麼至於所謂的南克北克那也沒有建築於法律那至於輪流擔任這樣的說法呢會出現一個問題剛剛講到我們講性別的時候他以同一時間總數的比例那如果是輪流因為考慮到台灣目前的設置啊政務官部會首長並沒有明確的任期他可以做一個月也可以做一年"},{"start":4511.57,"end":4520.352,"text":"甚至有人是做了一輩子就是做到他不能再擔任為止那因此所謂的輪流擔任在法律上未來的發展"},{"start":4521.816,"end":4548.125,"text":"還是有可能在時間上呈現出不能夠均勻的照顧到相對應的族群身上所以如果考量到這樣的機制設計呢輪流因為沒有明確任期嘛如果一任兩年或一任四年比如說現場我們在場有民眾黨的朋友聽說民眾黨他們的部分區委員呢是用兩年兩年來做區分如果同一個職缺兩年是誰另外兩年是誰"},{"start":4549.305,"end":4571.287,"text":"這個就不是輪流了,這就是明確的把每個人的兒份明確的定出來那由於原住民主委員會的主委他並沒有任期是四年那如果我們這裡說必須輪流那輪流率是一個人兩年嗎?一個族群是兩年嗎?還是怎麼樣?還是說前面那個做一年後面那個就不能做超過一年"},{"start":4572.288,"end":4586.781,"text":"這才公平啊!所以輪流的概念要達到公平的法律上所要求的均勻、對等的照顧是不容易做到的所以我建議合法大家思考一下因為原住民主委員會目前主委一人"},{"start":4587.722,"end":4606.52,"text":"政務副主委2人常務副主委1人總共是4位都是在檢任時事職等或筆到檢任時事職等或特任的這樣的一個高階的官員若以4位來講若真的要求到均等那或許同一時間與同一時間有4位的話"},{"start":4607.341,"end":4632.342,"text":"那各兩位這樣的法律的一個規範的條文是比較容易落實的我這裡只是以政委員跟翁委員的思維若要均勻的對待山園跟平原不同的族群的都是原住民的朋友或許不是用輪流這樣的不確定的法律概念因為這樣的輪流這樣的概念你要怎麼樣在時間上達到一個公平對待的方式不容易"},{"start":4633.163,"end":4635.605,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":4654.17,"end":4663.207,"text":"行政院長在提名的時候如果有這樣的明確的規定那麼這或許也不妨是一個可以落實的法律規範我強調再強烈一次我覺得"},{"start":4667.472,"end":4687.457,"text":"有兩個應該公平對待的族群應該在制度上被合理的照顧這個我覺得是可支持的但是要怎麼在制度上設計到它可操作而且會達到可公平的效果應該要去慎重考慮所以我這裡請我們原提案人可以思考一下真的要做到公平、可操作"},{"start":4688.317,"end":4690.799,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":4706.388,"end":4720.786,"text":"馬哈迪他的後來他們就有跟另外希望聯盟他們就講好了有人後面兩年輪流擔任但是內閣制的國家任期沒有一個固定的保障所以到底做多久是做完一半"},{"start":4721.772,"end":4740.843,"text":"就很難判斷啊前面一半跟後面一半到底誰先誰後就造成了一個毀棄承諾的問題所以這是提醒兩位提案委員可以思考一下我講的不是原則的問題我講的是如何去落實法律條文的設計可以貫徹你要求的一個平等對待的精神以上說明好 謝謝 那個國民黨這邊有沒有要表示什麼意見或民眾黨這邊有沒有要表示意見或五黨這邊"},{"start":4754.195,"end":4780.585,"text":"高金素梅第一次發言我還記得第一次我們做提案說明的時候或者在這個地方我們有討論過我針對第三條的部分我是尊重也同意鄭天財委員的說法但是第四條剛剛聽到吳委員在這邊這麼樣哽咽的說話其實我都覺得我們自己身為是原住民族的族人"},{"start":4781.445,"end":4801.906,"text":"我們也感到替他難過為什麼因為他講得很激動但是事實上我們都是從部落裡面來的我們也都清楚知道這些族群代表他代表的是誰在部落參加什麼事情我先請大家看一下"},{"start":4803.527,"end":4827.753,"text":"這個原住民族委員會的這個所謂的委員權責他聘用19到29個人那我們都知道有16個族群是有幾隻有給薪資的他的薪資大概一個月8萬多塊錢如果再加上交通費再加上一些他的出差費大概有10萬以上"},{"start":4829.073,"end":4856.193,"text":"我們想想這個10萬以上比部落的文建站要大學畢業的孩子要照顧我們的部落的族人他的工作簡直輕鬆很多啦我們都知道我們到婚喪喜慶裡面看到的都是族群委員在那邊講話那至於講什麼話部落裡面也都有錄影回來那我本來不覺得這件事情非常嚴重自從上一次黃國昌委員他其實非常認真"},{"start":4858.074,"end":4879.522,"text":"雖然這個原民會沒有提供給他完整的資料但是我在這一次請原民會給我提供的資料裡面我先讓大家知道雖然大家不管是莊瑞雄委員也好或吳立華委員也好拿出就是只要哪一個政黨他執政了以後"},{"start":4880.342,"end":4881.322,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":4902.508,"end":4911.414,"text":"審查名單只有一位,然後是誰推薦的,也是吳立華委員推薦的。賽德克組有三位審查名單,然後一位當選,誰推薦的,吳立華委員推薦的。"},{"start":4923.973,"end":4952.391,"text":"布農族有三位審查的名單推薦的人是誰?只有一位當選是吳立華委員推薦的周族有一位審查名單也是吳立華委員的特助吳立華推薦的卡諾卡納夫有五位審查名單他是自建的有一個自建的當選拉哈拉沃族有兩位審查名單"},{"start":4953.632,"end":4974.489,"text":"一位當選無力化委員的推薦少族有兩位審查名單然後呢一位當選成癮委員推薦的然後卑南族呢有七位審查名單他是民族議會推薦的塞夏族有三位審查名單"},{"start":4976.141,"end":4978.383,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":4990.435,"end":4990.875,"text":"吳立華吳立華吳立華吳立華吳立華"},{"start":5015.685,"end":5037.755,"text":"有五位審查名單他以前的身份是成營服務處的處長是成營推薦的台灣族有兩位審查的名單他的曾經的身份是吳麗華競選副總幹事然後也是吳麗華委員推薦的撒基拉雅族有兩位"},{"start":5038.275,"end":5041.841,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":5054.018,"end":5079.315,"text":"現在這個被推薦的這些名單拿上來給我你知道嗎在內政委員會裡面質詢的時候我們主委沒有參加這樣子的一個推薦這個審查然後呢他居然不知道是誰但是在我們的整個審查過程當中主委本來就是要在會議當中所以呢"},{"start":5080.435,"end":5097.124,"text":"這個不是我自編出來的喔這全部從這個你們待會可以回去看一下那就是哪一位委員推薦的然後當選他相關的職務都在上面這是助理整理出來的然後我們來看一下這些人他應該要做些什麼事情那事實上呢19到29位有16位是"},{"start":5100.606,"end":5102.727,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5130.766,"end":5150.501,"text":"佈落就形成一個很大的衝突了為什麼是他不是我為什麼是他不是我然後最後大家就說是不是我們以後這個族群委員既然他要做佈落的事務他要跟佈落很相近而且他要推廣所有的文化我們是不是以佈落的"},{"start":5151.101,"end":5153.244,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":5169.805,"end":5183.645,"text":"對一個部落裡面來的年輕的相對的剝奪感其實是蠻重的那他要做什麼事情呢第一他要出席本會委員的會議然後對委員會議他要提出本會相關的議案"},{"start":5184.687,"end":5187.868,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。"},{"start":5210.932,"end":5225.047,"text":"委員會議要重要的議案要先期審查例如我們可能要審這個土海法原民會還沒有送出來他們可能就要委員請問一下古仲副主委"},{"start":5226.228,"end":5253.901,"text":"現在這些族群委員有參與這樣重要的會議嗎?就我了解這些跟法案有關係的都是這些無幾值沒有領薪水的專家、學者在參加族群委員幾乎是沒有參加的就我了解了再來第二個他要做什麼事情?原住民族的政策、制度、計劃還有方案的先期審查"},{"start":5255.282,"end":5271.07,"text":"有嗎?第三個,原住民族相關法規的先期審查。第四個,相關機關原住民族事務之先期協調還有聯繫。第五個,主持或出席專案小組的會議。"},{"start":5272.611,"end":5298.271,"text":"第六個,要主持或參與與族群相關的會議、調查、研究跟協調。第七個,參加族群遂時祭儀、民俗、文化以及傳統祭儀展演、慶典或活動。第八個,其他交代的事項。我們來看一下,我現在手上也整理了一下,沒有全部整理,大概整理了一下。"},{"start":5300.092,"end":5327.027,"text":"呃 聘用委員叫誰我就不講了齁他參加公祭6個小時然後某個委員出差公祭12個小時某個委員參加公祭8個小時某個委員參加結婚歸零的典禮8個小時某個委員參加撿月香的公祭8個小時某個委員參加結婚典禮8個小時"},{"start":5330.27,"end":5351.139,"text":"某個委員參加某個老夫人的公祭8個小時這我才只是整理了一點點所以我們會看到就是說這些族群委員每個月擬將近10萬塊的薪水然後他還有退職金然後呢他做的事情他的權責"},{"start":5353.103,"end":5381.387,"text":"我在整理的上面我並沒有看到他參加重要議案的先期審查或者是原住民族政策制度計畫的方案的先期審查還有相關法規的先期審查至少原民會現在沒有提供給我說他們有參加這樣子的會議然後最重要的是他們上下班不用打卡然後他們只要填他們去哪裡參加婚宴就可以去當然我知道"},{"start":5381.927,"end":5395.503,"text":"原住民的選區非常的大,如果我要到一個部落去參加一個人的婚喪喜慶的確要花很長的時間,但是那不應該是我們族群委員該做的事情吧?"},{"start":5396.744,"end":5412.111,"text":"委員要做的事情既然你講是跟文化跟族群跟部落裡面的連結那麼重要的話為什麼園民會我們現在在推自治法、屠海法的時候推了這麼久你們都還說部落都還有意見呢?"},{"start":5413.666,"end":5428.508,"text":"如果我們這些族群委員都不把屠海法、自治法跟部落裡面的人討論清楚然後每一次去的時候還要原民會員親自去召開會議那我們要族群委員幹什麼呢?"},{"start":5429.509,"end":5443.323,"text":"族群委員最重要的是他對部落的事物第一要很熟悉第二他對他的文化要很了解第三他要被這個族群給認同所以基本上應該族群委員"},{"start":5445.004,"end":5446.365,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5467.879,"end":5485.36,"text":"在部落裡面的貢獻你還記得原民會113年我就讓你們要要把那個你們領選的辦法要修正嘛你們到現在一直都沒有修正啊所以這也是為什麼我這次提出來說既然我們的族群委員"},{"start":5486.041,"end":5510.175,"text":"造成部落上相對年輕人被剝奪感那麼嚴重而且造成部落裡面內部的紛爭的話你為什麼不要把遴選制度再做得更好一點呢請問一下遴選制度我113年講講到現在你們改了沒有沒有反而更可怕更可怕的是你們給我的這一堆名單裡面"},{"start":5511.937,"end":5522.479,"text":"難怪部落裡面的人紛紛一直在投訴不只投訴我這邊還投訴到不是原住民委員的辦公室所以黃國昌委員會拿到那麼多的資料"},{"start":5523.999,"end":5547.058,"text":"所以我在講今天不是說我們在對個別的委員做一些攻擊我們是就事論事所以以上我希望大家能夠聽到我如果今天園民會你有意要表達你覺得我講的是正確的你們要來修改你們這些遴選制度辦法其實我們也想聽聽看啊"},{"start":5548.539,"end":5566.312,"text":"他是不是他就跟專家學者一樣呢他是榮譽職的呢他有來參加會議我們就給他交通費呢這樣子是不是相對的這個剝奪感會少一點呢是不是113年到現在你們沒有修改啊園民會裡面也是失職啊然後"},{"start":5567.353,"end":5592.083,"text":"原民會主委甚至於就在那個備詢台上很清楚講說只有一張紙在他桌上你回去調資料你回去調資料這個原民會主委在內政委員會裡面的說法你都可以去調資料當時我聽了黃國燙聽了我們都嚇了一大跳只有一張紙在你桌上嗎"},{"start":5593.323,"end":5617.468,"text":"那你整個擬聘的過程你都沒有參加啊他啞口無言啊所以上一次不是您來啊古仲上一次是中副主委啊那到底這個工作是中副主委還是您在您在到底你們兩個是分派這個業務好不好謝謝你你你也可以記待會可以回答一下謝謝謝謝那楊委員好我鄭天才"},{"start":5631.388,"end":5638.63,"text":"我要特別說明族群委員的制度不是103年民國85年行政院原住民委員會"},{"start":5654.72,"end":5675.015,"text":"當初的法例的提案當初行政院的版本它是用組織規程所以也沒有什麼族群委員是民國85年之前我們的前輩蔡中涵立委的提案"},{"start":5677.711,"end":5706.129,"text":"原民會的以前叫組織條例組織條例的提案就是列了族群委員然後103年是做什麼呢是因為所有的組織條例都要改為組織法所以我們提了條文我們才會提條文我們主要的是原民會當初是四個處"},{"start":5707.813,"end":5714.676,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。」案。 本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5731.879,"end":5758.92,"text":"維持局的位局的地位但是沒辦法因為那時候已經限收在70個裡面當初的目的是這樣所以不是103年才開始的所以這個部分是民國85年我們的前輩這幾年呢看了我們的族群委員的在部落"},{"start":5760.151,"end":5786.578,"text":"在延民會我們的前輩也常常去延民會他對我們的族群委員跟以前真的是差之千里他也非常搖頭加上剛才高金委員所陳述的各族群的意見各部落的意見我也接到很多這樣的意見"},{"start":5788.211,"end":5813.596,"text":"所以我上次在司法法制委員會審查的時候你們兩位沒有來了我那時候也說了我們要把它有幾值要變成無幾值我們也是很難過的但是不得不還不如把這些多少的錢一個月八萬多塊"},{"start":5817.759,"end":5843.394,"text":"整個族群委員的整個預算編列一年要一千多萬一千多萬的經費而原民會的職員的人數當初103年的時候我跟高金委員當初提了附帶結議最少要195人"},{"start":5846.718,"end":5852.903,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":5873.922,"end":5898.941,"text":"一百一十四年度的預算已經加上這些基金單位預算還有文件站的經費一百四十五億多了所以我的建議就是把這些族群委員全部的經費改列為可以增加十六家乘以二最起碼三十幾個職員"},{"start":5902.134,"end":5917.462,"text":"現在人民會的職員非常的辛苦增加了這麼多的經費然後人力都沒有增加還維持在我們103年的時候所定的最低的額度當初希望能夠達到280人"},{"start":5923.71,"end":5952.232,"text":"所以這個部分從104年一直到現在預算成長這麼多但是人員職員那麼少危在的質詢人事行政總署就是沒有辦法增加所以我們就是希望族群委員既然已經沒有展現出當初立法的目的我們的前輩當初立法的目的因為"},{"start":5953.447,"end":5956.188,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案。"},{"start":5973.02,"end":5994.189,"text":"這是唯一8年沒有送來的其他的陳水扁總統馬英九總統都有送來啊所以連出委員會的都沒有啊連出委員會提案都沒有提啊這個組織委員就是要有這個責任顯然已經失去了"},{"start":5996.47,"end":6022.159,"text":"我們的鄉親說他怎麼代表竹委去參加婚喪喜慶竹群會員的工作是這些嗎真的是我們一般的鄉親就覺得很納悶所以這部分已經失去了所以這部分我們才會很忍痛的來提案所以這部分是有這樣的一個問題另外三眼跟平眼"},{"start":6023.61,"end":6052.18,"text":"因為已經實施這麼多年你要把它不分了難啊已經很難了無論你已經有經歷過上次你提地方制度法要把它不分結果遇到很多的難處很多的問題問題很多會影響很多所以我還是建議大家能夠支持這個本席還有高金素梅委員的提案以上"},{"start":6057.496,"end":6078.715,"text":"呃因為剛剛那個吳委員先舉手那可能麻煩讓吳委員先好那委員王在好謝謝因為我先及早澄清對下面的對話比較容易齁好呃我剛剛聽完之後呃我旁邊的委員也聽不下去就離開啊因為他們說留給原住民委員自己講話很難看"},{"start":6085.154,"end":6089.237,"text":"在這邊的對談竟然是曝露我一直很納悶為什麼要修不是只有我納悶很多人都納悶為什麼要修結果曝露了原來還是一己之私啊我來說明一下今天我前面聽到那一些話我覺得很不好意思"},{"start":6112.52,"end":6128.283,"text":"我還是要再重申來 我就講 我就講黃國昌上次也給我造謠那個刊版的我再說明一次齁我們作為一個行政團隊大家都是立法委員我們都有推薦的資格但是我一個一個講第一個啦啦族"},{"start":6142.113,"end":6144.456,"text":"我也要來問原民會是怎麼給資料的拉拉族是謝垂耀那個拉拉族的領袖他們開會把名單報給我我轉給你們怎麼就變成是我推薦"},{"start":6168.183,"end":6172.385,"text":"上次爆發那個記者會我去問區長怎麼回事丟臉385個人的族群我真的要講嗎第一個有前科第二個有前科第三個有瑕疵最後一個說搞了老半天他家裡有事不能來報到這樣也累到我頭上"},{"start":6200.265,"end":6209.089,"text":"泰魯格族高維寧那個人是他們經過開會有他們的大佬有前任的委員基羅穆斯他們推舉出來的布農族的委員也是透過地方的議員他們推薦出來的"},{"start":6230.029,"end":6236.351,"text":"更醜的是鄒族的委員是汪章良縣長親自寫推薦函的最後每個都變成是我我們拿出去給你們你們還要篩選啊你們有審查會怎麼會給的資料是我呢鄒司會是平他們這個是平原的平均議會他也都設在你身上"},{"start":6258.956,"end":6261.44,"text":"等一下 主席 怎麼一回事"},{"start":6263.878,"end":6288.836,"text":"我想知道什麼一回事各位報告因為高金文有跟我們調相關的資料那我們提供給高金文這些資料部落自己也可以給啦為什麼一定要透過某委員才能夠給呢如果按照他這麼講的話你們以前沒有推薦過嗎你們沒有推薦過吧我們一定要在這邊讓人看笑話嗎為什麼通通都是你們呢"},{"start":6291.857,"end":6312.993,"text":"如果部落真的有推薦人的話部落不會自己給原民會嗎一定要透過某個委員嗎憲法都有保障我們的主管我們的院長有任命權我們一定要管到這麼細嗎你們不就是有一個審查委員會嗎不就應該要把關嗎先不要生氣吳委員我們先釐清一下趙委員請他說明一下"},{"start":6313.453,"end":6315.334,"text":"主席我強烈要求請邀請這些族群委員"},{"start":6342.013,"end":6364.5,"text":"來這個地方說明我都覺得應該他們願意那族群委員到底做什麼事我們怎麼知道呢天哪來你現在告訴我是哪一位哪一位啊哪一位啊部落說哪一位"},{"start":6367.008,"end":6375.952,"text":"阿是哪一位阿你不能這樣子阿隨便誣衊掉他們的人格搞不好他們很認真阿去翻資料好不好先還一下那個副主委有沒有辦法解釋"},{"start":6383.275,"end":6407.27,"text":"跟各位委員報告有關拼右委員的這個我們臨選的這個大概方式呢就是比較多元有一些是透過民主議會那有一些是各界來推薦那沒有沒有沒有委員沒有我們還有幾個都是部落會議民主議會推薦的剛剛你剛剛委員你念到又念到濱南組織是民主議會通過"},{"start":6408.968,"end":6411.369,"text":"我認為既然有審查的委員制都沒有這一些疑慮了"},{"start":6440.27,"end":6449.568,"text":"那要審查委員幹什麼每天在那邊毀線亂證亂七八糟對啦這些都不是高金委員想要所以他生氣啊"},{"start":6453.615,"end":6464.625,"text":"本院委員黃仁等26人及委員高金素梅等26人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。 〈一〉本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。 〈一〉"},{"start":6476.876,"end":6493.481,"text":"部落房檢災會議出席的就有七位委員另外按照我們的人體研究計畫取得原住民族同意的會議在要點裡面有規範就是由各組的族群委參與這個會議然後由他們來決定同不同意管理原住民人體研究計畫的通過"},{"start":6494.821,"end":6496.982,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":6523.275,"end":6546.435,"text":"主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項主委指示辦理的事項"},{"start":6548.93,"end":6571.723,"text":"謝謝主席對於原住民這邊的話我們是總召已經發言我們是想說不用發言但是呢剛才吳委員點名到我們所以我想說回應你一下所以我們是要修這個法就要促進族群公平的代表希望就是防止"},{"start":6572.583,"end":6596.554,"text":"政治決定就是某一些族群所以保障山地還有平地的原住民的平等權益所以使得我們族委產生過程就是要代表性還有讓我們的原住民山地也好、原地也好就代表族群的發言還有就是權利但是呢剛才你也只有有講"},{"start":6599.451,"end":6626.975,"text":"立由有是沒錯我們講的立由有是因為看到剛才我們高金委員就是講推薦的都是你的名字我們收到的我們收到的資料推薦的都是你的名字所以我們就覺得說我們如果一個市長一個市長一個總統一個行政院長是不是可以用自己的人可以嗎"},{"start":6628.581,"end":6641.313,"text":"就像行政院是不是所有的部會是不是民進黨的人啊我們對我我問你等一下再回答好不好所以呢我當然問啊因為我不瞭解說我們當市長"},{"start":6643.581,"end":6658.305,"text":"我當立法委員我問的就是拿麥克風的人尊重好嗎我講話你尊重好嗎我當立法委員我跟你平起平坐我憑我的本事不是你給的所以呢我現在要聽我講講完就換你講我在講的時候你不要插嘴這個是禮貌連禮貌都不知道"},{"start":6665.547,"end":6667.649,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":6685.499,"end":6704.376,"text":"對,你比例說這個是因為他市長他推薦的人在他的市府裡面很多都是民眾黨的他有權力他覺得這個能力有是我能用的人我就推薦嘛對不對,行政院也是一樣嘛我能用的人我就去推薦嘛今天還有人講說我們"},{"start":6706.678,"end":6708.38,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":6723.713,"end":6751.845,"text":"不同的部落的人不同族群的人當委員我們是認同的我們是覺得很好但是你這樣比例但是我又看到所有都是你的推薦所以我才覺得說你這樣子的比例的話我就覺得說你澄清你不能說市長本來就有這個權利嘛行政院長就有這個權利嘛當然是用自己的黨優先選擇嘛所以說我們希望所以希望的是我們所有的委"},{"start":6752.845,"end":6768.506,"text":"委員現在我們客家委員的委員會的委員也沒有幾職的嘛所以我們現在從頭到尾我們聽的是我們不否認一直以來我們族群委員有薪水但是他的工作"},{"start":6769.227,"end":6783.412,"text":"要到位,這樣子對我們的族群比較有幫助,對他的職責也有貢獻。我覺得我聽起來是希望的是這樣,你們也希望這樣子嘛,對不對?他們也希望這樣子,所以不要說用了。"},{"start":6785.273,"end":6787.115,"text":"沒有選擇就像現在我們新住民的委員會還有我們移民署的委員會所有的推薦各個單位透過民間團體各個委員去推薦我們內政部長要去一一的去甄選去選擇"},{"start":6806.513,"end":6831.804,"text":"不是每個人推薦都有喔所以我們希望的是說大家就是要用的人每一個部落都有人才希望說這個委員會這些人他是貢獻有這個能力的我們希望的是這樣所以我聽起來是這樣我們希望說你不用拿這個比例來去用這樣的話我覺得是有落差啦所以不是說因為我看到"},{"start":6832.384,"end":6842.829,"text":"別人你剛才講的是他們提供的資料有誤差有可能但是我們看到的是這樣啊看到給我們的就是這樣的名單嘛所以我們覺得是說你又比例說這樣所以我覺得說應該你是市長了所以你推薦都上所以你覺得能用的都是你推薦的所以我覺得你比例就等於說你當市長這樣子的推薦的權利了嘛"},{"start":6857.897,"end":6862.401,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案：擬具"},{"start":6879.115,"end":6879.856,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":6895.83,"end":6912.24,"text":"委員但是都是無己職其實是沒有必要要聘成是專任專任職那麼我們這邊當然也肯定就是族群委員那麼他們代表各族群也可能也對於這個各族群也"},{"start":6912.64,"end":6913.761,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6936.307,"end":6937.188,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具"},{"start":6960.45,"end":6974.623,"text":"有這個必要性。那麼再說就是以現階段我們看到整個族群委員他臨聘制度上確實也出了很大的問題不論是從推薦的程序資格的審查專業能力還有"},{"start":6976.451,"end":6998.645,"text":"在種種方面以及它的這個代表性其實都沒有一個適當的規範這個規範就是太寬鬆太粗糙可能只是需要具備原住民的身份然後有一些什麼所謂的專門智能條件熱心公益有生育卓著這樣子就可以來擔任原住民委員會的委員代表"},{"start":7000.526,"end":7020.897,"text":"那麼我認為說從現階段來看他確實領選制度上面不盡合理再加上我們如果再跟其他的委員會相比較來說確實是沒有必要用有幾職聘任的方式來領選這批委員所以我建議就是說在整個行政機關的各個機關的標準應該是一致的"},{"start":7022.458,"end":7030.472,"text":"既然客家委員會的這裡的委員都是採無己職所以原住民委員會的這個族群委員其實也應該要採無己職是合理的謝謝那陳英委員是"},{"start":7042.695,"end":7059.203,"text":"有關於第三條的部分我就簡單補充啦就是有關於這個主任委員那山園跟平原輪流擔任的部分那我就提出一些疑慮因為我想很多來參與協商的委員還有立法院很多的"},{"start":7060.023,"end":7064.146,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘋果委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。"},{"start":7075.613,"end":7077.315,"text":"本院委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":7095.534,"end":7109.729,"text":"裡面其實都有就是大致上是可能是平原或山原但是其中有少數像泰雅族也是一樣大部分是山原但是他們在南庄的泰雅族卻是平地原住民所以今天"},{"start":7110.81,"end":7137.032,"text":"我覺得其實我蠻尊敬佩服鄭天財委員是因為在我們所有原住民的立委當中他是法學素養最深厚的一位那每一次他的這個他的論述還有他的修法一定有他的這個深層的意義未必是大家從這個文字上看得出來所以我第一個要提醒就是這個山園跟平原"},{"start":7137.833,"end":7163.922,"text":"如果今天我們按照這個修法成功這個版本修法成功之後那麼未來呢那如果說好現在曾志勇委員做完了下次我們就是換了這個這個台東的這個平地原住民但是是排灣族的然後之後做完之後又輪回去山原又是排灣族然後再回來然後又是排灣族又是平原"},{"start":7164.542,"end":7186.089,"text":"我們這樣也是合乎我們法規的這些修法的這個要求嘛 對不對但是可能大家就會覺得說這個族群上是不是可以平衡一下所以我覺得就是這樣子的修法它還是有問題嘛因為要回歸擔任原民會的主任委員其實跟各部會首長一樣最重要的是什麼"},{"start":7187.506,"end":7187.926,"text":"本院委員長"},{"start":7212.435,"end":7217.139,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。蘇貞昌委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7241.995,"end":7267.145,"text":"看到黃國昌委員這麼溫柔這麼心平氣和的講話然後我也很感動因為他說他自己不是原住民他就覺得他要多聆聽那我希望他再多聆聽可是可惜他走了啦我也希望說他能夠再聽到我講這段話那我希望呢他在多聆聽的同時也不要偏聽那因為"},{"start":7269.183,"end":7290.284,"text":"因為他講完對講完就走了平常喔有時候我在議場我也想走過去跟他聊兩句好一些因為最近我們也討論禁法補償嘛還有很多原住民的議題但是因為曾經我親眼目睹我們有女同事走去前面也是很客氣跟他講幾句話忽然他就咆哮起來了"},{"start":7291.986,"end":7309.089,"text":"所以我就很怕說我也是想去跟他溝通幾句但是我又很怕他一咆哮起來口水也是會亂噴所以他今天講我就斗膽在這裡就是也回應一下洪國昌委員在"},{"start":7309.85,"end":7336.693,"text":"指詢的時候提到的就是祖學委員的名單一片綠油油這件事情甚至呢在他的powerpoint上面還點名寫上了我的名字說某人是我的服務處的這個處長之類的那我想我今天也藉著這個機會我們就這個問題來好好討論一下首先呢我要講一下"},{"start":7338.414,"end":7361.196,"text":"剛剛跟原民會我第一次看到這個資料就是就這一份啦就是各組啊然後他的那個族群委員候選人吧然後有多少的他的經歷然後推薦人是誰我要跟原民會講你們這份資料其實真的是不精確還真是不精確"},{"start":7362.657,"end":7388.414,"text":"因為我剛剛看到一個很好笑的事情我覺得吳麗華委員你也真倒楣喔賽夏族賽夏族這個他們有民族議會這幾個候選人有民族議會推薦還有之前的這個朱薰委員推薦然後但是我看那個這次聘用的是平地原住民嘛"},{"start":7390.1,"end":7418.157,"text":"然後裡面也有當然提到我推薦的啦當然我就是說這裡面其中一兩個我有推薦沒錯但是呢這個有一些大家可能到處拜託啊那個名單到處飛可能我不知道有沒有去哪個委員那邊可能也去了伍麗華那邊可能也來了我這邊但是我們接到陳情禮貌上一定都就是還要送出去嘛"},{"start":7418.897,"end":7427.552,"text":"好,這個是人之常情啊,但是我想,就是我就剛剛看到那個我就覺得很好,像是吳立法你真倒楣啊,就全部都摔在你頭上齁。"},{"start":7429.079,"end":7457.977,"text":"然後再來我要講一下這個其實能力的問題以前我還真是不知道啦因為以前長期這個國民黨執政的年代呢我那天我先講我自己好了因為我被黃國昌委員點名那麼他點出說有其中有一位擔任過我服務處的處長那我想"},{"start":7459.017,"end":7486.914,"text":"黃國昌委員的這個質詢內容也印證了一件事他不是原住民他真的還不了解這其中的一些細節我要講的是第一個這個那一位被他點名的族群委員呢是族委跟我借將那還真是因為他的經歷是怎麼樣我想一個大家去仔細聽好不好講一下一個族群委員"},{"start":7489.113,"end":7510.039,"text":"他擔任過他在原民會待過三年在縣政府待過九年他也擔任過地方各級民意代表一直到中央從地方議員乃至於審議員還有立法委員的助理"},{"start":7510.919,"end":7530.705,"text":"我想所有的這個主委需要幫忙他當主委那借用借用這一位族群委員的精力我想這個是人之常情因為人才我也是很捨不得但是主委要借降那我就借給他嘛好那再來"},{"start":7532.503,"end":7557.327,"text":"再來就是說我想這些經歷應該是黃國昌委員他沒有好好去掌握的所以他才會講出什麼仇庸啊什麼綠油油啊然後到底到底這個綠油油我倒是要看一下那個我們看一下那個馬英九執政的那個年代好了"},{"start":7558.956,"end":7587.312,"text":"不好意思不好意思那個不好意思陳議員那個因為齁現在有一個比較麻煩的事情就是因為麥委員他說他要離開不是啊我要不是你們這樣打斷我他要離開是他的是今天已經排欸不是你先聽我講完嘛你先聽我講完齁我不是說質疑你不能講我是說因為我們今天是協調嘛齁那因為麥委員離開變成是三黨變成少一個那依照"},{"start":7588.172,"end":7607.404,"text":"先以前的因為依照這個協商因為依照協商之前只要三黨有一個不出席的話那變成是這個協商會議就是不成立了不是那不然這樣好不好你就讓我讓我講完那麻煩你當就是多做幾分鐘我就講因為我要講重點就被打斷了"},{"start":7610.226,"end":7635.658,"text":"我只是跟你提醒一下有這個狀況因為他們如果一離開少一個黨變成是我們今天就不成立了我只是要提醒這件事並不是要不讓你講主席決定我還是把我的意見講完稍微等一下我們讓陳瑜委員說完謝謝麥委員剛剛吳立華委員有秀出這一張我想我直接把它打在PowerPoint上比較清楚"},{"start":7636.718,"end":7656.459,"text":"那我要這個當然這個一秀出來就藍滋滋嘛那剛剛還有秀的是那個新竹市那邊的嘛啊那個叫什麼白滄滄啊對不對都是一樣都是一樣啊都是一樣啊"},{"start":7661.363,"end":7673.056,"text":"不是 你們不要插嘴嘛這樣人家有禮貌你自己卻沒禮貌很奇怪啊你刮別人鬍子之前你先把自己的鬍子刮乾淨麻煩你閉嘴好"},{"start":7675.501,"end":7679.564,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7697.045,"end":7715.79,"text":"哎呀 你們就叫黃國昌委員講嘛對啦 因為 因為齁 我覺得 你要講 你要講 你要講就自己講女生講話 男生擔擔你要講就自己講 不用 不用在這裡好像躲在後面 然後叫別人出頭"},{"start":7718.39,"end":7720.152,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7736.992,"end":7740.053,"text":"鄭天財委員的助理一樣擔任過鄭天財委員助理又不是人家穿著你的背心難怪難道他是他是冒牌的嗎"},{"start":7764.793,"end":7766.794,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7795.214,"end":7799.379,"text":"我對他一點意見都沒有你們全部過去那麼多人"},{"start":7801.906,"end":7817.417,"text":"那麼多人擔任到底是誰推薦的也有口文及委員的那本來就就事論事你們可以點名為什麼我們就不能點名很奇怪耶不是我們現在已經離題了哪有什麼離題就在這邊講啦這兩條有沒有共識是誰先帶頭離題的誰先離題的沒有共識的話就送院長誰先離題的沒有共識"},{"start":7827.845,"end":7830.047,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人分別擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7850.703,"end":7857.228,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文修正草案．審查委員會組織法第三條條文"},{"start":7873.541,"end":7877.362,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議"},{"start":7897.79,"end":7900.832,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提案。」本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．提案。」"},{"start":7926.125,"end":7930.81,"text":"本院委員黃仁等29人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．請審議案。」"},{"start":7941.502,"end":7955.844,"text":"歐委員不一定啦,我們就按照程序啦,那看主委你看怎麼樣?中委員你要擇期的話也必須其他兩黨都同意嘛,那現在就是中委員有這樣的提案,不知道民眾黨跟國民黨這邊是否同意?"},{"start":7957.812,"end":7986.553,"text":"中委員他們不同意,因為要他們兩邊同意,那就看大家的意思。我再補充一件事,不好意思,重要資訊,潘真祥前代表他是您的支持者,我也曾經推薦過他,我們都有這種大度,在民進黨執政的時代,我推薦他,但是他拒絕,因為他說民進黨執政他不要做。"},{"start":7988.252,"end":8015.403,"text":"是這樣子的 有這種事你可以去問他啊這個跟條文沒有直接關係啦不是啊 但是他們提這個法案的時候他們提這個法案的時候那就看照片嘛 大家看那個名單跟照片嘛那名單跟照片就知道嘛不是 我剛講那個是很中性的啦我知道所謂的擇旗也沒有所謂的"},{"start":8016.523,"end":8043.952,"text":"我講一下所謂的擇期沒有誰同不同意的問題啦就是送給院長院長有可能交付你再重新再協商嘛那不一定啊那這樣齁中委員那這樣我們是不是說大家因為今天的討論是沒有共識嘛那大家也都我們都沒有自指誰讓大家充分表達也已經兩個多小時了那是不是說因為各黨團的意見是不一致的啦那我們就到我們這邊一直插謊"},{"start":8046.178,"end":8073.123,"text":"沒有就是到我這邊一直斷掉一直插話很煩那因為我們今天發言的內容都有錄音錄影列入記錄啦那我們還是需要繼續溝通取得共識那是不是說我們就依據立法院執行法第12章的規定辦理好不好對就是讓院長去召開好不好好那就今天這樣不好意思啦因為兩個半小時了大家沒有共識"},{"start":8075.603,"end":8078.752,"text":"對對對好好好那謝謝各位那就散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16234","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db4b47bc6500708d15247fba16bfc1c1c4083084566cc2bdb4333f4088fa2f4b135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員、行政院主計總處首長、勞動部首長、教育部首長、財政部首長就「我國青年低薪成因檢討及因應對策，暨如何促進企業提升青年及基層員工薪資水準」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員就「我國傳統產業及中小企業發展困境探討、因應對策及相關振興方案」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-06T08:30:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-06T14:45:00+08:00","duration":22452,"影片長度":"06:14:12","委員發言時間":"08:30:48 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{"start":2145.185,"end":2151.647,"text":"那麼產業的結構分布呢我國中小企業超過163萬家那麼佔全體企業的98%提供一共有900萬個工作機會屬傳統製造業共有8.53萬家佔整體製造業比重超過9成就業人數20萬8156"},{"start":2170.843,"end":2183.729,"text":"二百零八萬人總產值12.55兆元以化學材料及肥料產值最高而商業服務業約128.94萬家就業人數高達697.4萬人以零售、餐飲、物流、倉儲、生活服務等勞動力密集行業為主"},{"start":2194.039,"end":2216.355,"text":"那麼在製造業面臨的問題及解決的對策上面我們所面臨的問題這個疫情加速製造業數位轉型進展除電子商務外在這個生產、行銷、供應鏈管理等營運發展均需透過數位手段提升營運效率及品質此外,全球"},{"start":2217.723,"end":2241.618,"text":"進行探討推動企業邁向淨零轉型為轉型的過程涉及製程及設備的提升供應鏈管理等多方面的調整進一步增加企業營運的成本傳統製造業具營運及資本規模小的這個特性面對少量多樣的這個趨勢、產品身邊收集等的挑戰"},{"start":2243.593,"end":2267.741,"text":"資金有限且投入研發風險很高那我們的解決對策一、協助企業數位轉型二、引領企業淨零轉型三、推動企業研發升級四、降低企業資金的負擔那麼服務業面臨的問題及解決的對策面臨的問題服務業就業進入門檻較低且資訊科技推升零"},{"start":2268.681,"end":2286.186,"text":"零工經濟發展轉向部分工時零工等型態拉低平均總薪資加以少子化以及勞動者提早退出職場以致於勞動力規模縮小服務業缺工問題日益嚴重此外我國內"},{"start":2287.886,"end":2302.459,"text":"內需市場規模有限且競爭激烈中小型服務業者受其營運規模商機掌握行銷整合能力的限制而缺少統一品牌拓展通路不易"},{"start":2303.36,"end":2320.494,"text":"解決的方法我們有幾種一、協助企業數位轉型二、引領企業淨零轉型三、鼓勵企業僱用中高齡者就業四、發展特色商圈刺激消費五、協助企業拓展通路"},{"start":2321.607,"end":2349.207,"text":"此外,為讓中小企業更容易取得升級轉型所需資金將研議新增30人以下中小微企業優惠貸款對於朝數位轉型、淨零轉型以及通路發展的中小微企業及稅級登記業者提供低利率與高保證陳述的貸款支持該方案除額外提供"},{"start":2350.543,"end":2354.491,"text":"保證額度外對貸款金額在250萬元以內者補貼利息1.5%補貼期限為半年"},{"start":2362.14,"end":2387.949,"text":"經濟部非常重視傳統中小製造業及服務業發展所面臨的問題故已於112年爭取三年約317億元役後特別預算協助產業加速朝向低碳化、智慧化方面轉型製造業提出研發創新提供租稅服務業提出"},{"start":2388.729,"end":2394.683,"text":"通路拓展及資金協助等措施更成立產業競爭力發展中心免負專限"},{"start":2399.66,"end":2421.251,"text":"零八零零零零零二五七以及馬尚辦服務中心擔任輔導面及金融面窗口解決中小企業及傳統產業問題以上報告,敬請各位委員指正視教敬祝各位委員身體健康,諸事順利。謝謝好,部長請回座來,謝謝經濟部部長詳細的報告"},{"start":2427.332,"end":2442.522,"text":"接下來請國家發展委員會劉靜清主委做報告以示合併報告主席、各位委員、先進、大家好"},{"start":2444.636,"end":2454.409,"text":"很高興來到貴會針對青年低薪劑如何促進企業提升青年及基層員工薪資進行報告．並備質詢。敬請不吝視教根據勞動部"},{"start":2461.431,"end":2484.522,"text":"的分析十五歲至二十九歲青年勞工就業調查結果一百一十一年十五至二十九歲青年平均薪資為三點四萬較一百零九年增加了百分之五點四較一百零一年增加了百分之二十四且超過六成青年勞工成餘限職獲得加薪"},{"start":2485.612,"end":2511.515,"text":"另因行政院主計處工業及服務受僱員工全年薪資中位數統計結果,111年25至29歲受僱勞工全年薪資中位數為48.8萬,年增幅約1.86。關於青年低薪的因素探討,青年低薪的因素非常多元,包括出入社會工作年資較淺,"},{"start":2513.575,"end":2513.795,"text":"一、邀請經濟部部長"},{"start":2532.881,"end":2560.331,"text":"政府也積極的去協助這些青年如何改善低薪所以我們也訂定了青年的低薪改善的八大政策那事實上政府從107年就提出10項薪資的改革到了112年提出了投資青年就業方案第二期那今年的10月30我們已提出了八大對策第一個對策是提升產業與企業的能力"},{"start":2560.911,"end":2583.066,"text":"因為明顯的是青年在就業所待的產業跟企業獲利能力會影響到青年的就業薪資那我們希望透過一些政策的推動提升比較多的高薪就業機會讓青年有更多的高薪就業機會取得較高薪資再來是我們提升企業加薪意願對於有能力而"},{"start":2583.906,"end":2605.591,"text":"無意願的企業我們予以比較強力的政策引導第三是教育技能我們協助一些青年能夠去做轉型與教育的提升尤其在教育部的STAND方案中我們積極的在處理另外我們也會提供社會教育協助青年轉型進入薪資較高的領域第五是強化區域均衡"},{"start":2606.531,"end":2628.457,"text":"現在透過園區的推動很明顯的將中南部的薪資開始往上提升追上北部所以整個國家將會進行六大區域的一個均衡規劃第六是創新創業我們透過創新創業讓年輕人有更多自主創業的機會可以獲得更高的薪資第七是由政府帶頭"},{"start":2629.939,"end":2635.214,"text":"第八是我們減少青年人的負擔,譬如說社宅,譬如說租金補貼等等。"},{"start":2638.348,"end":2666.747,"text":"那針對幾個比較大的重點我們先在這邊報告第一個是政府作為加薪的引擎的部分我們會先帶頭由政府去對外承攬進政府工作的這些非政府的基層員工我們的月薪要高於最低工資第二個部分我們對採購的部分我們將會調整希望將來政府採購都要高於最低工資1.1倍再來我們在另外我們在政交法"},{"start":2668.808,"end":2694.084,"text":"政見交易法修正的時候也會由金管會來要求上市會公司明定營餘提撥的比例作為基層員工的調薪與分配另外我們強化薪資的透明勞動部會研議修正就業服務法將薪資介入的門檻提升至5萬同時金管會也會研議薪資門檻最低工資1.3倍的公司才能夠納入上市會公司申請"},{"start":2695.385,"end":2717.633,"text":"同時,我們也對於基層員工的平均數、中位數納入企業永續報告揭露範圍。同時,我們會對於持收資本額超過100億的公司117年起,我們對於申報性別性質的差距也同時會有強力的要求。第三個部分就是我們講的企業賦能,透過經濟部擴大中小型企業的發展。"},{"start":2718.673,"end":2745.789,"text":"也做了一個很大的改善那同時呢我們也透過信保基金去對於企業對員工加薪的部分我們會額外提供融資的協助那也同時政府對於中小企業願意去提高薪資的部分也予以相對優惠稅務的補助基於這幾種方式呢我們希望透過這樣的方式來提升青年的薪資以上報告"},{"start":2746.73,"end":2754.14,"text":"那接著報告我國傳統產業與中小企業發展困境以及因應對策的看法"},{"start":2755.558,"end":2782.685,"text":"二零二三年因為市場存貨過高以及疫後的經濟表現不如預期加上高通膨以及這個地緣政治干擾的影響以及中美之間的紛爭造成全球經濟產生一個動盪的現象也造成了終端需求的疲軟那今年稍微有一點回溫但是因為俄烏戰爭的持續跟以亞的衝突加上中國的內需疲軟"},{"start":2784.451,"end":2810.342,"text":"也讓這個企業還是受到相當一定程度的影響那為了解決這些問題政府的幾個因應措施在這邊做一個說明第一個是促進產業升級的轉型我們深入了解企業大概中小企業分成兩類一類是積極創新型的企業目前表現都相較良好但是呢屬於比較非積極"},{"start":2812.003,"end":2838.585,"text":"創新的部分很明顯現在受到了很大的壓力那過去在這個過程中這些企業多半重視成本的控管重視短期利益、忽視長期的利益因此急需政府的幫忙與協助所以目前本會與經濟部協商之後有幾項推動的做法第一個是由經濟部以大代小輔導個別廠商模式提升產業升級轉型然後朝向這個智慧化與低碳化"},{"start":2839.586,"end":2862.895,"text":"本會也透過國發基金針對這些企業採購設備的部分與融資的協助。同時,經濟部也會對低碳化與智慧化的領域提供更多的輔導與協助。增於這一點,本會也透過國發基金將與環境部合作成立綠色成長基金,也同時已經匡列了100億給速發部透過AI的轉型發展協助企業。"},{"start":2869.363,"end":2889.13,"text":"在中小微的企業部分,除了中小企業政府已經投入110億元協助中小微企業進行面的改善而非僅點的改善那這個部分也是本會也積極的透過幾項基金協助經濟部一個是服務業的轉型基金一個中小企業的轉型基金"},{"start":2889.85,"end":2915.587,"text":"那這幾個基金合計從環境部預計的100億加上AI的速發部的100億經濟部的200億其實共有400億投入這個領域協助企業翻轉第二個部分是均衡產業發展很明顯的傳統產業不論是在我們之前談到的加薪能力或者是在產業轉型上面都遇到很大的挑戰與瓶頸那當前我們看到最大的問題在於是"},{"start":2917.108,"end":2924.027,"text":"大家要進入數位化的階段過程中以及國際化的競爭中明顯遇到資本的劣勢因此"},{"start":2925.875,"end":2953.201,"text":"本會除了積極與國客會、經濟部、速發部推動AI發展協助產業AI化AI產業化之外也同時會協助這個中小企業跟傳統產業進行產業控股的方式加大資本效率透過資本效率凝聚更強的競爭力與發展另外我們也會與外面的基金合作籌設企業再造基金針對"},{"start":2955.137,"end":2979.41,"text":"有能力、有機會在進行再造的企業予以投資與轉型協助企業直接翻轉跟脫困第三個部分,除此之外,協助企業之外我們也會加速新創事業的發展提供青年跟這個企業更有機會發展自己的事業新創事業是中小企業的一環我們也會依循賴總統在未來4年內我們要達到1500億的投資量能作為基礎"},{"start":2984.073,"end":3003.981,"text":"打造創新創業與聯繫、活絡投入投資生態、擴大投資標的以及提升創業成功機率三個角度予以協助與支持以上為本會針對中小企業的翻轉的措施跟振興方案的報告以上謝謝委員"},{"start":3008.396,"end":3033.613,"text":"好,坐請回座,謝謝主委針對兩份報告詳細的說明來,頒行政院主計總署、勞動部、教育部及財政部的書面報告請各位委員自行參閱,我們並刊登公報在委員詢答之前,我很快的介紹今天列席的各部會的官員經濟部由郭字位部長以及中小企業"},{"start":3034.713,"end":3061.763,"text":"署產業發展署、商業發展署三位署長列席。國發會由由諸委及人力發展署、產業發展署、社會發展署、管制考核署、世衛署長列席。另外,國發基金由師傅執行秘書列席。主計總署由國事普查署盤處長列席。勞動部的部分重規師王司長列席。勞動域發展署由吳助長列席。"},{"start":3062.662,"end":3086.49,"text":"教育部的部份請發署陳署長列席另外高教師、資訊科技師、技職師另外財政部的部份由負責署倪副署長列席現在要進行詢答了那針對今天的詢答針對報告事項兩岸我們進行合併的詢答"},{"start":3092.557,"end":3118.744,"text":"那這個委員諮詢之前主席按照往例做以下的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記但是為了要讓這個會議"},{"start":3123.661,"end":3141.852,"text":"進行能夠順利以及兼顧每位委員發言的實踐的公平性以及不要影響到下一位委員發言的權益在每位委員諮詢時間結束後主席會立即請諮詢委員停止諮詢"},{"start":3144.898,"end":3160.009,"text":"若不聽質詢,主席會議以致止。請各位委員能夠盡量配合。感謝。好,現在進行質詢。首先第一位委員,請陳庭威委員質詢。"},{"start":3169.215,"end":3170.721,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":3182.099,"end":3203.406,"text":"部長,我想今天大家都在關注美國的大選,到底是賀錦麟當選還是川普。我想這兩位當選,現在可能對於台灣比較大的影響,大家會比較關注的是川普在選前的那一番發言,所謂的"},{"start":3205.475,"end":3214.108,"text":"臺積電奪走了美國100%的晶片事業所以他認為他要向臺灣臺積電來收保護費這樣的一個議題"},{"start":3219.622,"end":3247.481,"text":"我想你認為這個議題是真的議題還是假的議題還是它就是一個選舉過程的一段話而已在你認為因為你們兩個都是產業界過來的有你們的角度我想先請部長報告委員委員長這個命題我想是在選舉之前所提出來的所以我們"},{"start":3249.991,"end":3272.616,"text":"不能夠在這個期間還沒有確定之前我們只能這個討論就是比較不公開的來討論因應這個命題那如果說你要問我我是不是可以用個人的想法好像不太行用個人的想法來回復你的問題不過以我們在企業界的觀點來看台灣的經濟跟美國的經濟其實是互補的"},{"start":3277.765,"end":3300.365,"text":"就川普他在選前提出這個命令其實他是互補的臺灣是在這個晶片的供應鏈上面非常的強但是對供應鏈的設計設計的部分美國大概佔了全球美國大概佔了全球的這個供應鏈大概七八十個percent所以"},{"start":3302.073,"end":3325.422,"text":"如果這個有這樣的一個現象發生的時候我相信對美國的業者並不見得是一個好事這是第一點第二點我們看到那個台積電在這個亞利桑那他那個廠到現在這個已經完全的這個試產成功了所以下個月他們將會"},{"start":3328.223,"end":3335.633,"text":"有一個很好的訪問要發出那我們再看不管美國新的總統是誰應該都會在"},{"start":3342.232,"end":3369.934,"text":"開創出來這個條件是對台積電最有利的那台積電在這個先進製程我們所謂的先進製程大家都知道這個是7奈米以下的製程幾乎它是一人五零所以你再怎麼限制都沒有辦法限制它的發展因為市場有強烈的需求所以不管誰當選我個人 我的這個在企業上面所聽到的"},{"start":3371.223,"end":3375.792,"text":"跟我所發現的應該是對台灣特別是對台積電"},{"start":3377.84,"end":3399.294,"text":"應該是影響不大包括他所謂的可能會去撤銷晶片法案其實很多人都認為這根本就是假議題因為也不是一黨說了算一個人說了算所以為什麼我們在現在雖然美國大選還沒有正式結果出來我會問這個議題因為在現在這個時間點我們所看到的確實川普"},{"start":3406.258,"end":3419.672,"text":"的一個領先幅度比較高所以我覺得我們還是要讓我們台灣的企業有些穩定軍心就是說不論是誰當選基本上它就是一個政治的議題選舉的議題"},{"start":3422.191,"end":3445.957,"text":"對於在整個晶片產業鏈當中影響不會很大甚至所謂收保護費這個知識體大不是一個總統說我要收保護費就可以收保護費那請問保護費的意義是什麼意涵是什麼就像剛剛部長所說的當你企業有這個需求的時候你要收什麼保護費"},{"start":3447.981,"end":3466.975,"text":"對不對?企業是有需求的阿美國企業有這個需求大家都在排單都在等著我們給單我們還用這樣的所謂晶片護國神山要去打國家隊世界盃所以我覺得這個本來對於我們來講我為什麼要用這個議題來詢問重點我們要穩住軍情"},{"start":3470.798,"end":3496.685,"text":"我現在問國發會主委因為主委也是從企業界轉到我們這個所謂的行政團隊那麼在你的看法呢我先跟委員說明一下如果他收保護費受到傷害的是Apple、NVIDIA、AMD、Intel這些國際大廠所以川普是生意人他不至於去收保護費造成他"},{"start":3497.305,"end":3512.159,"text":"與美國產品受到更高的成本,漲價出來,影響到民意。第二個部分,台積電當年有配合它進到了亞利桑那去生產,所以有三個廠對美國的安定已經存在了。所以我認為這是一個選舉語言,"},{"start":3513.92,"end":3542.387,"text":"因為它要實質實施會比較困難反倒是它會對中國企業開徵60%的稅然後逐年會減少對中國的進口這個反而對台商是一個好的機會第二個部分是它會擴大像類似對華為等等這種公司的禁令這個禁令對台商也是一個比較好的機會所以我比較正向去看這件事然後我們也會鼓勵台商勇於抓住機會去發展更好的未來"},{"start":3543.387,"end":3563.259,"text":"謝謝主委,其實這個就是我們今天的重點了因為我們通常在媒體上都看到所謂的要收保護費可是我們沒有去看到川普在另外一個區塊對於中國企業所做的限制甚至他在一個稅的部分要提高60%"},{"start":3565.08,"end":3588.439,"text":"那麼如果相較之下在於收保護費在我們的評斷這根本就是不可行因為這是一個市場趨勢也就像我們主委所說的不是只有台積電啊要說保護費你可以說我只要說台積電的保護費嗎不可能啊它所涉及的是一些世界大廠"},{"start":3589.5,"end":3615.801,"text":"那麼所影響的層面絕對美國會先受傷所以這知識體大可是對於中國他的標的非常的清楚對於中國的企業他已經說了他要去做一些限制甚至要提高關稅這個部分他講得非常的明確所以我們都認為在今天這個主題當中我們希望"},{"start":3616.943,"end":3628.593,"text":"如何讓我們的產業界更安心尤其今天大家開始關注的都是美國大選到底是誰當選當選之後會不會影響到台灣的一個經濟和中國的經濟"},{"start":3633.863,"end":3654.797,"text":"所以在川普目前大幅領先的狀態我才會用這個議題來詢問我們的部長跟主委因為我們的部長跟主委剛剛好都是從企業界非常非常資深而且在領域當中都非常有成就的轉戰到我們的行政"},{"start":3655.828,"end":3684.02,"text":"所以在這樣的前提之下我們希望藉著你們在企業的經驗跟行政來做結合我們不希望像我們剛剛所提的報告所謂的中小企業他未來的整個青年低薪還有如何做傳產的振興這些如果只有像我們書面他做不了真的是做不了我們必須結合你們兩位在第一線"},{"start":3685.16,"end":3708.994,"text":"在第一線曾經有的經驗結合進來不能再用制式的一些行政理念如果可以的話我們不用每一次都在談論這個議題所以再麻煩我們的部長跟主委麻煩你們了,謝謝好,非常謝謝陳廷輝委員部長跟主委先回座"},{"start":3711.457,"end":3739.546,"text":"您也稍微等一下我們確認一下議事錄我們先確認一下議事錄請問在場委員針對上市會議事錄有錯誤沒有錯誤我們議事錄確定下回質詢請林丹化委員有請部長請郭部長委員長部長本席要針對希望您聚焦在這個"},{"start":3741.107,"end":3765.753,"text":"服務業服務業當中我也聚焦在我高雄我們高雄市的服務業的產值是2.58兆整個高雄市包括工業、農業我的服務業的產值是佔了我們高雄市全產值的46%我服務業的加數是15.5萬家也就是我高雄市的盈利事業當中82%的加數是我服務業"},{"start":3770.094,"end":3793.265,"text":"好那但是我服務業的就業人口呢是我全高雄市就業人口的也佔了六百分之六十一他的營業的這個加數百分之八十二他的服務人口佔了我高雄市百分之六十一但是他的產值也佔了我高雄市百分之四十六點多那相較於全國的數字我們服務業跟產值跟就業人口佔比是六成"},{"start":3794.686,"end":3816.983,"text":"這個數據所呈現的數據是什麼?也就是今天為什麼我要跟你討論高雄市的服務業型態多為小型、家宿多、人力需求大但人均產值是較低的,也就是低薪好,我就針對我們商業服務業在全國來講其實也是有大概這樣的問題全國的服務業有128.94萬家、就業人口697.4萬"},{"start":3822.947,"end":3836.376,"text":"以零售餐飲物流倉儲生活或排除了金融業除了金融業之外全部都是勞動力密集的行業這也都再加上少子化缺工後疫情產業形態改變衝擊"},{"start":3838.798,"end":3863.786,"text":"最大的族群而服務業就業進入門檻低臨時工或零工型態造成產業陷入低薪的惡性循環更加速了勞動力的退場缺工的問題日趨的嚴重所以本席希望能夠經濟部能夠針對壯世代的資源如何結合壯世代的資源能夠成為勞動部跟經濟部思考的關鍵政策"},{"start":3864.486,"end":3886.986,"text":"好 那我們看全國跟我高雄 全國來講的一二三級產業三級產業也佔了整個這個產值46.21% 二級佔了52.76% 那我高雄的就業人口一半的就業人口 我高雄總人口270萬 一半就業人口其中三級也就是服務業 我佔了61%啊"},{"start":3889.523,"end":3914.919,"text":"我剛才在前言的時候我就講二級就工業我才36%而這二級我又聚焦在中油為主的化學材料中鋼為主的基本金屬以及日月光為主的電子零組件我看我三級服務業臺北市的三級服務業因為金融都聚焦在臺北所以他的服務業的產值就服務人口也多佔了他的產值也達到81%"},{"start":3918.261,"end":3944.822,"text":"台中的第三級服務人口也佔了52%但是他有聚焦他的餐飲業好那這個只是一個關鍵高雄服務業當中你看右邊這張圖就好我在這邊的服務業從累積到我今年的第二季運輸倉儲業跟我的不動產業其實是佔大多10%以上零售業跟餐飲業次之佔9%以上"},{"start":3946.663,"end":3961.253,"text":"次之才是金融保險業那這當中有一項就是帶動我住宿的就是演唱會經濟如果有演唱會經濟的話平常我們住房率到58%有演唱會跟會長我的住房率可以到80%到90%好那這個是這張數據當中要去凸顯的好我的問題在哪裡高雄服役的問題"},{"start":3970.619,"end":3991.358,"text":"第一個缺乏人口紅利這是全國也是全世界的問題也好在高雄市有這個演唱會的經濟補助但是相較於臺北、台中我高雄市缺乏常駐型的商業服務業這就是等一下你們要協助輔導提升高雄市的方案在哪裡"},{"start":3992.479,"end":4017.725,"text":"二、市場競爭加劇區域商圈發展出現很大的落差這個商圈我又分為街頭型的商圈跟百貨型的商圈如果是我們高雄街道型的商圈共有31個我們非常的團結但是所呈現的是城鄉發展的差距即使在城市內我北高雄跟南高雄的差別以南高雄以火車"},{"start":4020.706,"end":4048.593,"text":"高雄火車站來做劃分北高雄跟南高雄這在街道型的差別也很大如果說我把大型百貨跟商城視作商圈的話就是相對的對於消費者來說百貨也是一種消費場域的選擇對街道型的商圈當然會有排擠那這個一般傳統型的街道型商圈跟百貨型的商圈都存在的體驗服務品質的"},{"start":4049.193,"end":4050.855,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":4065.393,"end":4086.475,"text":"好 那這個就是我要去凸顯說這個是我爬梳出來的高雄服務業瓶頸的第二項市場競爭加劇區域商圈在街頭型跟這個百貨商圈的這樣彼此的一個落差第三個本席認為有缺忽略的品牌意識也應該要強化包裝跟銷售"},{"start":4089.518,"end":4109.713,"text":"第四、服務業勞動利益短缺及服務人才,所以高雄需要重視的體驗價值的商業服務業往高端方向發展,邁向國際性服務業大層本席有建議,這幾個建議我希望部長您能夠一個月內提出精進方案"},{"start":4110.333,"end":4126.922,"text":"所謂經濟方案要含預算要含期程而且以書面方式來回復本席我希望您的這個經濟方案當中有這幾項品牌化提升我商業競爭力第二個年輕化激發我創新的能量"},{"start":4127.702,"end":4145.938,"text":"第三、智慧化這其實你們有在做但是都是單點的做也就是您的報告當中所提的建立商業模式第四、特色化封入我商業的內涵第七、國際化的拓展商圈當然下面這也是我就整體要帶動"},{"start":4147.319,"end":4170.055,"text":"整個服務業,這個不是你的業務,但是呢,針對內需的消費力,高雄市應該要積極這個國際課員以飛行4小時內的航線為主要的推動對象,如新加坡、馬尼拉、日本、韓國檔等。當然這不是您的業務,但就我剛才所提的這五項的發展方向,提出一個院提出經濟方案,您怎麼看呢?"},{"start":4170.958,"end":4196.394,"text":"報告委員我想謝謝你的這個指教呼應你剛才所指導的這個內容之一到目前為止高雄你看到的就是你的演唱會辦的時候整個高雄就是生氣勃勃所以我會在這個會展這一方面來強化高雄的這個服務業也就是說我們在所有的"},{"start":4197.688,"end":4220.606,"text":"表演、文化的這些大型的這個會展以及三類的大型的會展吸引客人進入到高雄部長,我希望我是整體性的宏觀的來看我高雄的服務業因為既然要提升它的要改善它的低薪如果它的產值沒有大量的產生的時候就不可能有高薪的產生"},{"start":4223.067,"end":4244.343,"text":"我先不講金融業那其他的部分你如果在我整體的從這個問題的爬數部長你好好看一下我這個問題的爬數這是整個高雄市現有基礎上我們應該還要再延續的那我希望你經濟部做什麼在一個月內提出經濟方案可以嗎請你可以交代你的商業司司長在哪裡"},{"start":4247.118,"end":4266.869,"text":"市長可以嗎?一個月提出來,整體高雄的。是針對你的這個議題嘛,是不是?整體我整個高雄的方向。還是你要針對整個高雄的改善?我不只有會展,那個不是我要的而已。是整體。但是我建議啦,你參考我的意見比較有效。"},{"start":4269.344,"end":4298.071,"text":"部長,把你的意見列入,你的意見只是我其中一個,叫做品牌化、年輕化、智慧化、特惠化、國際化、當中國籍,本席是以高雄市的高度,你如果只是會長,部長你如果真的要再繼續跟我討論的話,可以,來,我們來看,那個叫做波段式,只有在會長的時間,演戰會跟會長的時間才達住房率百分之八十到九十,我平常是沒有的,百分之五十八,"},{"start":4298.971,"end":4326.73,"text":"部長你要虛心聽聽民意啊為了做這個是開了多少次的會啊你一個部長你以為你是你是企業經營沒有做但是你當政務官其實是有待觀察的謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林大華委員謝謝謝謝主席部長請回座就是按照林委員的要求就提供說明資料嘛就是他要求一個月之內就其他就不要再"},{"start":4329.687,"end":4334.651,"text":"不要再暢所欲言了。下一位質詢請李玉玲委員"},{"start":4351.075,"end":4356.616,"text":"主委,我們今天是要討論低薪的問題那尤其在我們臺灣的薪資已經停滯了超過20年那勞動部在公布了一些我們2023年年輕人的薪資的整個報告裡面我們看到在職場上有四個大學生裡面有一個就是領基本工資的那尤其是整個低薪的這個困境我們政府一直都沒有妥善的改革的一個方針那尤其現在年輕人看不見"},{"start":4380.401,"end":4380.701,"text":"主任委員及經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":4399.642,"end":4400.503,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":4425.023,"end":4425.063,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":4445.716,"end":4463.964,"text":"這個基本工資的調整是有考慮到這個CPI的狀況這是有的但是委員提到的是薪資的提升是的確要去做的所以您看到的就是為什麼這樣講你調整這個基本的那個工資但是我們看到2022年到這2024年的9月漲幅高達百分之"},{"start":4467.466,"end":4472.428,"text":"十點六的這個CPI的這個成長率的年增率就在我們17項民生物資裡面就佔了10.6%所以你漲的薪資就是整個被這個物價高漲這個給吃掉了"},{"start":4483.973,"end":4508.675,"text":"委員是這樣您這是2022年到2024年所以2022年我們有調整基本工資2023年也調整基本工資可是我們物價還是高漲啊所以你調漲的幅度會不會就在物價上漲的幅度以今年來講核心通膨在1.86那整個CPI非核心含非核心波動型的通膨大概在2.3那所以這次的調整是有考慮到這個數字的"},{"start":4511.154,"end":4537.412,"text":"那您這個數字是連續三年我們連續三年加起來應該也會有達到這個數字啦所以我們必須要扭轉這低薪的問題所以可不可以主委本席的建議就是說你要公布企業薪資整個結構要透明化好不好你不要調整基本工資那這個基本工資我們看到是有些的基本工資他們領的如果三萬塊就超過你基本工資那所以說根本企業就沒有給他們調薪超過三萬領超過三萬三萬二三萬五的他就沒有調啦"},{"start":4540.794,"end":4558.596,"text":"你只調基本工資嘛好不好這個問題你結構上你回去透明處理這個整個結構我們現在是有繼續的調整跟您很快報告三件事第一個勞動部修正就業服務法要提升薪資透明原來是4萬以下的現在要5萬以下的第二個金管會也會開始去"},{"start":4559.938,"end":4570.941,"text":"去設定這個薪資門檻就是也要求最低工資1.3倍你包括這個本席都有看到你的資料都知道現在我們擔心的是企業之間會透過聯合的行為用一樣的低薪的這個薪水去壓榨勞工這就是你要去讓他們企業整個透明的結構要呈現出來我也請經管會協助就是進行那個產業薪資比較表出來看誰高跟低那你多久時間給我們"},{"start":4589.938,"end":4597.13,"text":"我還要再問一下經管會好,一個月好不好?好好,謝謝那諸位請回那現在請郭部長請經濟部郭部長"},{"start":4600.131,"end":4613.981,"text":"國務部長講到低薪這跟企業有關係我們要提高中小企業的加薪的誘因在這邊我們看到的我們中小企業的發展條例裡面特別是說一定的人數在24歲以下65歲以上的話你們就有做一個這個補助這個基本薪資那請教一下那24歲以下的人勒"},{"start":4623.188,"end":4648.64,"text":"他現在讀大學他讀高中那他畢業要去當兵當兵回來的話他剛好就在24到30之間是不是這個部分的話你可以說在這個加薪減稅的這個部分可以在24歲以上30歲以下年輕人讓他們這個企業能夠徵顧一些年輕的勞工的意願可以嗎報告委員這一個那個是說對這個以下的人或者是"},{"start":4649.64,"end":4670.04,"text":"六十五歲以上的這些比較年長的人用的企業給予一些減稅的輔導因為他們初出社會不管當兵回來或大學畢業找工作的時候是非常辛苦的如果說你這個沒有給他一個保障跟鼓勵企業去多請一些年輕人的話所以他們還是會在低薪階段這個部分部長可以調整嗎"},{"start":4671.581,"end":4671.961,"text":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":4700.598,"end":4707.742,"text":"市長,我們勞動部有針對這個產業執行這個職癌的訓練在這訓練當中我們看到我們在這個2020年到2023年產業的產業新尖端這個尖冰的這個計畫裡面我們投入了非常多的資源在辦這個執訓那在這個執訓裡面在這一次執訓裡面總共有兩萬"},{"start":4725.171,"end":4750.285,"text":"三千五百五十五人在投入那我們看到他們出來之後的話將近有百分之二十五點五的年輕人並沒有投入相關的產業這個是不是你們課程的規劃沒有符合產業的需求謝謝委員的追尋這個部分來講因為現在我們還在評估中因為等於說產業新鮮冰基本上他們新入職場的部分然後那本身來講這課程裡面我們也在做隨時的滾動調整"},{"start":4751.946,"end":4777.663,"text":"所以你看這個兩萬三千多人裡面拿到薪水四萬以上的只有四千八百二十九人將近有拿到三萬以下的就有一萬零兩百三十五人所以他們執訓出來沒有拿到他一個水平的薪水還是在三萬以下的低薪這是你們執訓有沒有針對產業的需求你們去產業去調查說他需要什麼人你培訓什麼人為什麼這個有落差沒辦法馬上就業呢"},{"start":4778.303,"end":4798.205,"text":"跟委員報告因為基本上來講因為訓後之後他要經過一段時期而且本身來講在企業內他本身要了解企業等等的運作情形那基本上而且我們其實不只這個部分而已其實我們在就業之後我們還有財產人才的投資方案他隨時可以精進自己的技能我想其實"},{"start":4799.146,"end":4823.696,"text":"職業的訓練的培訓是逐步建立的然後本身來講他進入這場一個基本門檻之後那逐步建立他基本從基本門檻建立他基本的技能之後呢再逐步的按照他所需要市長你要了解因為我們會培訓這些人員的話就是我們要訓練人才產業需要的人才但是產業上這個人力的這個缺口我們要去給他補足讓產業跟我們的這個整個年輕人他們的創業"},{"start":4828.078,"end":4850.53,"text":"共同的能夠符合的話才有雙贏的局面我們勞動部這邊是不是可以提出一些改善的一些方案呢?可以,沒有問題那這個方案你們什麼時候提出來?一個月好不好?好好,謝謝好,謝謝這個李玉琳、趙偉這個非常精確的諮詢好,那個下一位諮詢請謝伊鳳委員好,來,這個"},{"start":4868.02,"end":4872.146,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請郭部長跟劉主委請經濟部郭部長、國發會劉主委"},{"start":4879.417,"end":4908.155,"text":"委員早早這是昨天我為什麼在院會質詢的我想要了解的是今天美國大選什麼時候會出爐你們有沒有掌握我們兩個經濟咒脈都沒掌握美國大選的結果什麼時候會出爐我們估計還要至少四、五天還要四、五天是不是因為他這次通信投票的比例將近一半"},{"start":4910.066,"end":4930.726,"text":"他時間會跟上次一樣拉得很久那因為這次很焦灼也會跟上次一樣要等最後可能要等到最後一個週出來這是高盛證券對於美國大選四個scenario我想要了解我們行政院對於美國大選的scenario是什麼兩位誰可以回答"},{"start":4935.012,"end":4957.681,"text":"國部長你來講報告委員我想你勇敢的講我都會對我們自己負責的範圍做出scenario對那你對你的經紀人對川普呢如果川普當選昨天劉卓偉說了差異會比較大是不是我們看到了他川普他說"},{"start":4960.393,"end":4983.436,"text":"川普他說台灣偷走我們的晶片是不是?為什麼這個是他?你回答你回答報告委員我想這個命題是他的選舉語言你覺得是選舉語言?他會不會對台灣的晶片刻意重稅?會不會?他說的啊,他在Podcast說的"},{"start":4985.192,"end":5010.441,"text":"台灣對美國來講美國這麼多的Design House所有的生產都是在台灣那麼台灣的影響力是非常大美國的Design House占全球你是說台灣對美國晶片的影響力很大還是我們出口到美國的產值對台灣的經濟影響非常重大這兩回事"},{"start":5014.792,"end":5036.013,"text":"這個報告委員我想這個是很清楚的因為你也是經濟學博士所以你非常清楚這樣的一個結果我們基於這個觀察我認為在半導體這一個部分影響應該不大因為它既存的事實台積電在先進製程是一個人的武林"},{"start":5036.96,"end":5062.231,"text":"那麼20奈米以上的這些傳統製程基本上台灣還是非常具有經驗跟這個市場的競爭能力所以美國的廠商美國的設計廠商佔了70%所以這個是很難去改變的一個事實所以我們雖然有這樣的一個製造的技術"},{"start":5063.171,"end":5068.353,"text":"但是美國的商務部對於台灣就是對於美國的晶片法案台灣等大型晶片廠商他們就是還沒付款是不是"},{"start":5093.444,"end":5117.9,"text":"要等到年底嗎?是不是?那個跟委員報告,台積電現在最新的消息就是它在美國那個廠運作的非常的順暢所以下個月12月份他們會有一個Ceremony這個Ceremony的時候我的預計他們可能會再公告他下一個廠建置的時間所以會不會撥款?"},{"start":5119.947,"end":5146.352,"text":"會不會撥款?美國的晶片法案會不會撥款?對,他會跟這個美國請款因為現在美國那個晶片法案的補助阿阿如果川普大選會不會撥款?那個什麼英特爾的老闆都出來講說我到現在投了300億美金但是他的補助都還沒拿到所以我們有可能也沒有辦法拿到是不是?但是那個錢對台積電來講其實太小"},{"start":5147.783,"end":5152.425,"text":"臺積電即將會達到Milestone,然後量產之後Milestone到達,他就會去清還"},{"start":5171.093,"end":5184.363,"text":"因為這個晶片法是法令除非將來在中參議院會重新修訂或是廢掉它的時候才有可能否則它不會改變它是一個法定它必須依法來進行"},{"start":5185.964,"end":5187.085,"text":"我完全贊同劉主委的這個看法"},{"start":5214.451,"end":5240.449,"text":"你贊同他是不是?我給你看我們的數字我們出口的數字是什麼?中國﹐對中國大陸的﹐他弄錯了啦他做PowerPoint做錯我們對中國大陸還有香港怎麼樣?整個比例雖然已經逐年降低還有35%對於美國呢有17%今年提高到20%"},{"start":5241.67,"end":5251.372,"text":"如果兩邊都增加的情況下那對於臺灣的經濟影響是什麼過去主計總處有說如果大陸的經濟下滑1%的時候對臺灣的經濟影響是0.2%那這樣子的情況下如果美國對大陸可以重稅的時候我們會不會對臺灣的經濟造成影響"},{"start":5270.956,"end":5271.416,"text":"怎樣?"},{"start":5271.416,"end":5272.537,"text":"郭部長你說?"},{"start":5272.537,"end":5280.26,"text":"你怎麼樣?報告委員 我的看法還是一樣就是對台灣的影響是正向的正向的?"},{"start":5280.26,"end":5281.5,"text":"是怎麼樣?"},{"start":5281.5,"end":5287.763,"text":"不會有影響我還有下一張喔 不會有影響嗎?為什麼?"},{"start":5287.763,"end":5300.128,"text":"你說啊 你要有論述啊因為美國會對中國加大的稅金那這個中國的 而第二個就是說科技的這個產品它幾乎啊"},{"start":5300.928,"end":5300.968,"text":"主席"},{"start":5321.937,"end":5335.614,"text":"我們現在因為跟美國經濟非常的很大啦所以現在美國都要求我們不能夠這個民主聯盟的國家不能夠把這個產品賣到蘇俄賣到這個中國"},{"start":5338.578,"end":5339.759,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":5356.232,"end":5384.374,"text":"跟委員報告其實原來我們在中國跟香港我們最高的時候會將近到48%左右的出口值現在逐年下滑那你可能不知道最近的內卷中國的內卷其實傷到台灣的企業非常的重包括甚至最近低潤也出現這個現象但是隨著美國對這個禁令的加壓反而有助於形成兩個不同的世界對我們是有幫助的可以堵住中國的內卷造成對我們的傷害"},{"start":5385.715,"end":5386.815,"text":"好的,非常感謝謝宜芬委員"},{"start":5416.584,"end":5417.764,"text":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":5444.11,"end":5463.06,"text":"部長我想今天有幾個問題請教您最近國營事業換人的幅度還蠻大的部長您這個在國營事業換人的這個過程裡面有跟哪些人討論過討論的時間是多久我們這個您剛才在講是國營事業的高層吧對"},{"start":5470.835,"end":5486.333,"text":"國營事業的總市長、總經理現在換人的幅度是很大的嘛是,我想這個部分牽扯到整個有跟誰討論過嗎?討論的時間是多久?我們大概這個部分大概已經我上任以後"},{"start":5487.93,"end":5515.106,"text":"大概就6月份開始討論是這樣嗎?這個是昨天你們的中友董事長跟總經理交接那部長你沒有去嘛你們的內部的同仁說因為您在開會所以你沒有去參加那由經濟部政次去兼交我要請教就是說中友董事長是什麼時候知道自己要被換?大概兩個月前吧"},{"start":5515.725,"end":5516.166,"text":"10月30日發文給他,11月4日生效。"},{"start":5535.205,"end":5539.748,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":5564.978,"end":5587.373,"text":"這是台堂。台船也是一樣,台船董事長一紙公文告訴鄭文榮你下台就換人。台船總經理更可憐,在台船工作了52年,只剩下10天就要退休了,你一紙公文禮拜五下午一紙公文禮拜一叫人換人走人。"},{"start":5590.568,"end":5615.475,"text":"部長您經營過一個公司啊你看到一個52年的老員工一紙公文叫他立刻滾蛋他還對著台船鞠躬的時候你內心不會感到很難過嗎你知道我看到這張照片我眼淚都掉下來了我不知道我們的政府怎麼了我今天身為一個執政黨的立法委員我很久沒有在這裡怒罵執政黨的官員"},{"start":5617.695,"end":5641.872,"text":"這個政府什麼時候變得這麼殘忍這個政府什麼時候變得這麼不人道這個政府什麼時候變得不懂得什麼叫尊重尊重兩個字很難嗎一個做了這麼久的官員你要換誰我都沒有意見但是我覺得對人的起碼的尊重應該要有吧應該要有吧"},{"start":5646.249,"end":5662.91,"text":"不過董事長您同意我的看法嗎?您過去經營過一個公司,你的公司會這樣換人嗎?或許會,因為你是民間公司。你說換就換,你不想要用這個人說fire就fire。可是一個國家的機器,國家可以這樣換人嗎?"},{"start":5666.175,"end":5682.336,"text":"報告委員我想我們的換人都會尊重這個所謂的這個法律的這個規定你尊重法律的規定但是你沒有尊重個人嘛你說你我沒有說你不能換掉他我講的是尊重兩個字"},{"start":5683.988,"end":5698.447,"text":"二十八號給他一個公文他剩下十天要退休了你多等他十天很難嗎?讓他有尊嚴的退休很難嗎?三十號給他一個公文十一月四號交接只有兩個工作天他連打包都來不及啊"},{"start":5700.523,"end":5703.565,"text":"這些人一輩子奉獻在國家"},{"start":5730.303,"end":5757.342,"text":"部長 其實這個不是只有你們的問題啊盧天寧也是這樣 一紙公文叫人家走路蔡黃郎也是這樣 一紙公文叫人家走路不是只有不是只有你國營會啊那國營會 市長您擔任國營會這麼久我不相信你們過去在處理人事是這樣子處理的你們過去處理人事是這樣處理的嗎我可以請國營市市長"},{"start":5759.841,"end":5778.082,"text":"董事長跟委員報告好我們事實上現在處理大概都是我們收到行政院公文以後我們會給公司有一段安排董事會的時間所以絕對不會是當天我們會等到公司已經把董事會的時間確定出來跟董事長報告怎麼安排以後我們再發公文"},{"start":5778.662,"end":5805.092,"text":"這樣才可以確保公司不會沒有董事長而用代理的方式所以看起來雖然公文可能是前兩天拿到但是原來的董事會跟董事長都已經提前知道否則我們不會安排這個時間因為這樣子如果不把董事會安排好他就可能會有七、八天的時間這個公司是沒有董事長的所以我們現在這個處理方式大概是這樣確定你們是這樣處理嗎?是,不會,對,我們都有先跟那個,市長,我如果再問下去齁你們真的會很難堪啊"},{"start":5805.712,"end":5832.6,"text":"我再問下去真的是打執政黨一個大巴掌很多國營事業我講了我對你用什麼人我沒有意見但我對於你不懂得尊重這件事情我非常有意見我們今天要討論這個這個主席安排的議程要討論這個加薪啊要討論這些東西如果說政府部門自己連基本的尊重都做不到"},{"start":5833.991,"end":5861.01,"text":"你不要跟我談說你的施政會多有效果啦明星都不在啦郭董事長您在當董事長的時候應該不會這樣治理公司吧您說你要把你治理公司那一套拿來治理經濟部您治理公司的時候不會這樣子吧這個是讓我覺得最痛心的地方啊接二連三這一個多月來國營事業的人事汰換"},{"start":5862.554,"end":5888.325,"text":"我必須再一次講我覺得你們對於基本的尊重都沒有我真的看到台船總經理這個照片我真的內心非常非常非常的難過在台船工作了52年竟然被你們一紙公文就這樣子掃地出門你叫台船公司的員工如何對這個公司盡心盡力呢"},{"start":5890.049,"end":5916.927,"text":"你叫中油公司的員工如何對這個公司盡心盡力呢只要一紙公文就可以讓人家滾蛋啊你叫這些人如何為公司賣命呢如果你的從業集團你也是這樣子對待員工的話這些人如何為你的公司賣命這麼簡單的道理嗎你今天要講加薪如果待人不能待薪的話"},{"start":5919.561,"end":5941.749,"text":"這個國家的治理是會很有問題的啊我不知道一個治理企業的部長來到了經濟部之後反而是這樣子對待國營事業的董監事、董事長如此處理國營事業的人士我後面的東西我也不想問了謝謝委員 這個部門我們會深刻檢討我覺得你們最尊重這兩個字 完全不懂是 我們會回去檢討"},{"start":5950.452,"end":5966.038,"text":"謝謝邱營委員來,部長跟市長請回座我們待會張家俊委員執行完之後我們休息7分鐘下一位執行請賴樂隆委員,執行時間6加2好,謝謝召委,請國部長經濟部,國部長"},{"start":5983.763,"end":5990.888,"text":"好,部長,我先請教一下,這個揮打說要傳採購綠電100億度,這個後來應該沒有這件事情吧?揮打採購這個100億度綠電的這個計畫是假的命題。所以是假訊息嘛,對不對?是。被炒作了6天。"},{"start":6006.107,"end":6027.411,"text":"就是從10月29號這個有被立委詢問之後到11月4號經濟部11月3號經濟部去確認過之後並沒有這樣計畫而部長還因為這件事情還做了很多的說明是的所以我們只是還是要再一次的去提醒部長那你有什麼看法"},{"start":6029.462,"end":6052.57,"text":"這個我認為提質詢的委員也沒有錯因為這個事實上這個一百億度由輝達採購的這個事情是由某個廠商他為了炒作股票然後他發布的這個訊息所以委員我認為他也沒有錯只是我就這個命題去了解"},{"start":6053.71,"end":6069.33,"text":"我們如果跟輝達之間啊這個大的世界大的這個客戶我們之間都有聯繫的所以所有的世界的大的廠商要來台灣投資水跟電充分的滿足他們的需求是經濟部的責任我要講一下是我認為有問題啦"},{"start":6071.553,"end":6093.357,"text":"第二你剛剛都已經講過有人要炒作嘛有人要炒作股價的時候那這個時候還有立委配合來做這件事情的炒作沒有查證清楚就問這就已經不恰當了啊部長在這個第一時間我都認為你當時的詢答可能都要再更謹慎一點因為有可能你的詢答變成了大家全部都在跟著配合在做炒作我說那幾天可能全部被的炒作那"},{"start":6093.897,"end":6114.175,"text":"等到了經濟部在確認完經過了五天到六天才確認完事實上我建議部長未來遇到這種的不確定性高度敏感的問題的時候其實應該先保留一下啦因為你到底你也不知是真是假那結果被配合了炒作的時候反倒會造成了這個很大的一些影響而導致經濟部在過了五天六天才去查證我認為這個其實並不恰當"},{"start":6117.238,"end":6135.011,"text":"報告委員我想是這個樣子我是非常明確的知道所以我才回答他經濟部的公告是我們為了得到大家可以認可的資料所以我們再一次發文給回答請他正式的回應我們所以才差了五天這樣"},{"start":6136.171,"end":6161.008,"text":"對,所以我的意思說,未來像這樣的事情其實都具有高度的敏感性的問題的時候我認為其實部長可能必須要再更謹慎處理是,謝謝,謝謝委員指導再來另外,我問一下啦齁,前陣子我看這個臺電的鄭董事長有講到要微調民生電價部長你有提到沒有要漲,這個確定嗎?報告委員,我想這個調整電價的部分還是這個電價,這個審議委員在決定啦"},{"start":6164.05,"end":6179.181,"text":"所以這個臺電的董事長也好或者我們在說明都不應該講調整或不調整這個調整電價是這個電價委員、審議委員他們的這個這個我都同意部長這樣一個說法"},{"start":6180.442,"end":6203.213,"text":"我認為電價的調漲與否有很多專業性的考量也有電價的小組那一塊要尊重那一套制度另外是它也會牽動到整個物價的波動嘛電基本上是物價波動所以我認為這個都是一個很知識體大的事情那都不應該輕易的由官員的口中去做出一些我認為這個但海淀董事長有那樣的期待我是沒有講是因為"},{"start":6204.233,"end":6221.814,"text":"有媒體問我我說就環境來講這個還是要這個審議委員他們同意嘛所以我說我覺得部長這樣的答覆是OK的但是臺電董事長有期待這也能理解啦但是我只是說在這樣的處理上面還是要小心回去以後會要求臺電董事長不要輕易發言"},{"start":6222.795,"end":6247.52,"text":"這樣的問題都要敏感、謹慎、小心有可能都會造成一些不必要的困擾再來我問一下啦那接下來的中油的董事長、方董事長上任就說他的油電要漲他的油要漲啦部長你支持嗎這個因為他有一套機制他必須要根據那個機制去運作不能夠私自解釋那個運作的這個方式"},{"start":6248.63,"end":6266.528,"text":"我還是要再次的提醒所有東西都有一套機制在進行一套機制在走那任何的這樣的東西都可能造成到整個光訊息的出來就造成整個市場上的一些波動了每一個我認為所有的不管是從部長到董事長都必須要再更謹言慎行這件事情因為你出來之後"},{"start":6268.77,"end":6296.582,"text":"還要這個帶物價穩定向政院報告沒錯啊當然是要跟物價要整體思考啊過去產生的油電雙漲對於整個人民對整個物價的影響是多麼大如果你有確定要做的也不是用這樣的方式進行嘛那更何況最後可能都不會動但是有可能這些訊息一出來的時候都已經造成了相當大的一些波動所以我還是希望部長包括也跟所有的這些呃國共營事業的董事長要再三的提醒好不好"},{"start":6297.282,"end":6312.723,"text":"政策思考清楚了決定怎麼動再來講,台水也一直很希望漲啊但台水董事長就知道這短期內有困難嘛就是說所有台說的這些事情都還是希望要謹言慎行它對每一個的物價對每一個整個人民的觀感都會有相當大的影響"},{"start":6315.164,"end":6335.069,"text":"再來我請教一下部長,在大寧埔千春安置的計畫書裡面其實有很具體的提到右側這邊寫到對關懷戶延長到12年,一般戶延長到6年這個部分那過去經濟部想要跟內政部來協調,但是有遇到一些困難那既然已經在我們的計畫書裡面已經直接寫明要做了"},{"start":6335.669,"end":6357.646,"text":"部長,如果內政部那邊涉宅它的遊戲規則沒辦法進行的時候,是不是就經濟部自己來自辦,就不要再拖延這整個的時間?這個我們再找這個內政部來討論你們今早內政部討論過了啦,內政部其實有意見啦,內政部認為它涉宅的制度,它照它制度,它延長它認為有困擾是,我們努力跟內政部來溝通"},{"start":6359.364,"end":6376.224,"text":"給我一個時間兩個禮拜內做出一個決定好不好如果內政部沒辦法答應你的條件的話那就請經濟部自辦可以嗎?因為你的計畫書裡面寫得非常清楚你的計畫書都已經寫在上面了如果內政部無法協助你辦理那經濟部就自辦嘛現在開始準備自辦嘛"},{"start":6376.624,"end":6399.439,"text":"我想在法令的許可之內呢,我們會來...兩個禮拜內給我們具體的答案好不好?如果內政部無法辦,經濟部自辦,部長可以嗎?經濟部事辦,這個我要請示我說的是,這個是由行政院經濟部核定的計畫我再跟部長確認一次,如果內政部沒有要配合,經濟部自辦,可以嗎?"},{"start":6400.615,"end":6411.462,"text":"我們來努力看看不是努力看看,你的計畫書上就是這麼要求的但是我們的計畫書上面必須要內政部能夠同意的他希望內政部做,但是內政部做的時候就是經濟部要做嘛這個計畫書上面已經寫了嘛"},{"start":6415.609,"end":6420.391,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":6439.673,"end":6465.651,"text":"目前已經公告了公告對那月底前來進行環評請部長跟環保署這邊再行溝通好不好環保署好不好月底前要來進行環評的說明好嗎月底前我記住這個部長那也請你到大林埔來親自跟鄉親們說明好嗎月底這個環評的說明他明天要求部長到歷任的部長每次都到王美花部長、沈永林部長都到現場部長自己親自來好嗎"},{"start":6467.029,"end":6492.855,"text":"我把時間這個調整一下月底親自來跟鄉親們說明這件事情好嗎報告委員我月底可能有公務行程在國外那就挪你可以的時間來好嗎可以嗎好不好配合你的時間配合環保環保署跟你的時間親自來到現場說明好不好部長等你喔大臨部等你謝謝謝謝賴部長回座謝謝賴任委員這個"},{"start":6495.325,"end":6513.317,"text":"非常精確的質詢下一位質詢請張家俊委員主席我想請經濟部部長請經濟部部長"},{"start":6522.052,"end":6544.778,"text":"早安部長,最近新聞沸沸揚揚有關於中油董事長被吳裕景拔官,請問您事先知道這件事情嗎?不是拔官啦他說他拒絕參加交接啊,因為他沒有被事前通知,他要被拔官啊可能是有啦"},{"start":6546.919,"end":6567.47,"text":"這個人事是您同意的嗎?人事我同意要往上報的啊那中游4日舉行董事長交接典禮部長沒有出席是什麼原因呢?報告委員所有的這個國營事業啊這個董事長或總經理交接過去都是由次長出席"},{"start":6568.55,"end":6576.556,"text":"目前呢,中油工會的理事長就公開批評您是重電輕油請問部長真的有重電輕油嗎?民視中油的大老闆、大股東欸為什麼他們交接沒有配合你的時間呢?那就是你不在意嘛,你也不是很在意嘛"},{"start":6598.383,"end":6603.28,"text":"我想要知道的是為什麼你不想去?是這個董事長的人選你不滿意嗎?"},{"start":6605.697,"end":6630.95,"text":"我對中油的這一些幹部我都包括你看看中油的事情前幾天上一個禮拜上上一個禮拜我到圓山去挖那個地熱井我也是親自出席啊是啊所以我就問你說為什麼中油這個董事長交接這麼重要你不出席呢報告委員那個慣例都是由次長出席"},{"start":6632.41,"end":6632.691,"text":"我沒有草率發言"},{"start":6655.823,"end":6658.364,"text":"請問您最近又提示代表購買綠電的這個計畫已經成熟了嗎?"},{"start":6683.135,"end":6696.625,"text":"報告委員我想這個我們現在在進行這個可行性評估啦在進行可行性評估那這個是一個世界的潮流也就是說綠電的需求這個是世界的一個需求"},{"start":6697.557,"end":6715.207,"text":"那麼每一個這個國家本席特別去查了一下發現您在產業的時候就想去菲律賓發展漁業了現在您當經濟部長心心念念的也是菲律賓本席還蠻想了解是什麼原因讓你對菲律賓這麼感興趣因為你現在彷彿就是臺菲聯合經濟部長欸報告委員我想這個因為我做國際貿易做很久那麼我在國家之間啊"},{"start":6727.028,"end":6746.581,"text":"每一個這個地區它的資源不會是一樣的所以才會形成國際貿易的這些都是有經濟理論的是當然我同意啊我同意我只是好奇說我們周邊的國家還蠻多的特別喜歡菲律賓是為什麼然後它的資源我在講這個要素資源理論這個是"},{"start":6748.541,"end":6768.865,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6769.42,"end":6795.789,"text":"我們現在一直在進行中看起來是非常的樂觀那您說像菲律賓購買綠電超過4元就不買這個是您說的嗎我說的那這個是專家計算的是什麼專家可不可以請部長跟大家分享我今天沒有帶資料來所以你也不知道是什麼專家我當然知道是專家我專家的名字是不能夠公告的不會是雲報專家吧"},{"start":6797.669,"end":6820.407,"text":"雲報我在這裡鄭重的跟這個委員以及所有的在這邊的這個貴賓報告經濟部跟雲報只有一個關係他是經濟部來登記的公司但是他也不是經濟部所屬的公司也不是經濟部這個支持的公司雲報是為了炒股票"},{"start":6821.752,"end":6848.74,"text":"而講了很多不應該講的話所以我本席在問你請問這個四塊是包含哪些成本土地成本有包括嗎?資金成本有包括嗎?建制成本有包括嗎?我跟委員報告如果這個地方夠大建制成本平均的建制成本我們都可以看到一塊半"},{"start":6850.825,"end":6853.207,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":6874.381,"end":6891.331,"text":"所以本席在這裡提醒一下部長您說的這些構想其實是非常可能造成國安危機的更重要的是您有可能被前客騙了您知道嗎我們昨天才處理這個國發基金的不當投資調查委員會因為這個國發會投資如新的時候慘賠了10億然後前國發會主委龔明星他就說了"},{"start":6902.78,"end":6905.113,"text":"他直接了當說他是被騙了"},{"start":6906.617,"end":6935.311,"text":"所以你們不是不會被騙捏你千萬不要一股腦的去執行最後被騙了不可能被騙 被騙被騙菲律賓不是專家我是這方面的專家我不可能被騙還是其實你不是被騙我印象深刻您說您是行政院的經濟部部長也就是有就是說是不是您是受到高層指示辦事這件事是不是有高層指示你一定要去推動菲律賓的綠點"},{"start":6936.471,"end":6963.201,"text":"報告委員 這個齁我是根據我的這個專業第二個我認為啦齁這個是看這件事情啊要專家才有辦法來判斷那怎麼說呢所以我比較好奇的是你是不是被騙了還是被逼的沒有 我不被騙也不被逼這個都是我個人的這個這個理論基礎跟我個人的經驗"},{"start":6964.904,"end":6987.182,"text":"來做出來的這樣的建議部長本席曾聽您說過說可以不要做官所以本席在這裡呼籲你既然有這種guards說可以不要做官但千萬不能被框去背黑鍋我們有選擇要做對的事情對國家社會有意義的事情這一句話我留在這裡希望你要深思啊"},{"start":6987.842,"end":7004.869,"text":"那另外呢您又提起說要把我國的這個低階封裝高耗能的石化這個鋼鐵業移到菲律賓請問一下這個參與呂宋走廊這件事情你有跟其他部會溝通過嗎?有跟石化產業溝通過嗎?"},{"start":7006.989,"end":7019.038,"text":"我們只現在在進行可行性評估可行性可以進行了我們就開始進行產業的這個工作所以你們可行性評估沒有過你們就決定核定投資1062億喔?"},{"start":7022.199,"end":7033.029,"text":"你們在蔡英文總統現任的最後一週通過中油新四星投資案為什麼這麼急?連你都不知道原因吧?合訂了1062億那個是在高雄喔"},{"start":7041.278,"end":7043.42,"text":"現在我們要休息,休息時間有7分鐘,休政層休息10分鐘。"},{"start":7411.613,"end":7413.968,"text":"並備質詢。"},{"start":7511.476,"end":7530.808,"text":"一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員一、"},{"start":7667.847,"end":7682.293,"text":"好,官員請回座。來,請介席官員請回座。下午繼續開會,下午執行請張琦開委員。"},{"start":7708.564,"end":7735.54,"text":"請阿郭智輝、郭部長請經濟部部部長回答回台灣社廠是全民的期待嘛我知道你也很努力啦也很努力 像這個事情媒體報導說它要110度這個綠電我經過兩次的質詢我們的重點是在這邊的我看有某些立委或者某些媒體好像故意在扭曲化作重點了"},{"start":7736.454,"end":7752.774,"text":"只有兩個重點嘛前名希望他回來包括民進黨立委在這邊都拜託你啊要促成去他們的縣市設廠啊對不對是對那我們就盡量去幫他這是政府的責任而且是全民的期待第二個裡面牽扯到力電夠不夠嘛所以只有兩件事情"},{"start":7754.209,"end":7768.1,"text":"我那天就說你去聯絡他他到底需要多少綠電進度到哪裡嘛對不對我們把它做清楚把它問清楚做得好目前都做了嘛對不對是謝謝委員指導對這個是雙贏很好那現在就繼續要幫忙他他現在是要回來設廠對不對是他綠電該買的也買了"},{"start":7770.582,"end":7794.473,"text":"至於剛剛講到什麼銀包去炒股票我看你用很嚴厲的言辭譴責嘛我相信有人在炒股票全民都是譴責的好不好可是請不要有人話錯重點最重要的如果有媒體報導那本來我們就爭取他要回來的他到底有什麼困難有需要綠電本來就把它查清楚我覺得經濟部到目前做得很好謝謝委員我們繼續努力接下來要不要談一個最近非常熱門的"},{"start":7796.51,"end":7821.915,"text":"台研力電的掏空案也是一個很嚴重的一個弊案我要提醒部長的雖然現在國營事業都在換你看剛剛大家問你中友董事長的問題台研力能掏空案這個問題國營事業不要變成掏空連連特別是不要像台研力能變成詐騙集團這個非常要不得部長我先問你一個台研力能啊"},{"start":7823.609,"end":7841.572,"text":"他光是由他兒子去成立這個土地開發然後找了一堆綠油油他自己的廠商去成立了開發公司鴻輝國際跟兆陽開發勾結之後光是這兩家集中的土地開發說起了八億的暴利"},{"start":7842.659,"end":7866.495,"text":"另外,用這個指定廠商的方式,左手換右手,把我們國營事業的錢掏到利優惹的手上去,又是3億台元喔,國營事業喔,損失就11億人民的納稅錢損失11億,我要問你一條這件事情第一個,你們沒做行政處分第二個更重要的,怎麼避免國營事業的錢被掏空你有這上面注意,這是檢討的"},{"start":7869.784,"end":7897.615,"text":"這個回答這個委員的這個問題這個我們有沒有做行政處分我們是我們做調查的也送送檢調這個所以這個這個比行政處分更嚴厲所以跟委員報告這第一題第二題我們如果防止這個光電這個這樣的弊病再度產生的話這個行政院院長有交代我們經濟部、法務部、農業部"},{"start":7899.724,"end":7917.725,"text":"要成立一個平台公開、公正的來跟所有的廠商或者是所有的地主來做一些公開的協商所以任何的人都可以檢舉如果有再發生這個問題"},{"start":7920.516,"end":7947.335,"text":"行政院院長的指示就是絕不放寬、寬容這件事情不允許這個事情再度發生所以不允許再發生,第一個一定要防備嘛因為發生了就要檢討,包括送檢調查證那現在很重要的我這段時間接到很多的陳情我們的農漁民受到很大的傷害還有跟我們國營事業、台研的下包廠商、合作廠商喔"},{"start":7950.572,"end":7974.183,"text":"有些人都幾乎是破產了,那個是幾千萬的錢進去了我跟部長講一下他們陳情的內容第一個,臺原力能去跟我們農漁民還有這一些土地、這個地主一共簽了很多千年,都已經是7年前,很多是7年前或者最近7年以來簽的這個約結果因為臺原力能後來都沒有去開發,很多都沒有開發,或者開發到一半現在出現了兩個很大的問題"},{"start":7976.001,"end":8002.55,"text":"那些地主該拿到的錢也沒有拿到第二、最可憐的其實這兩件事最可憐的就是臺南跟嘉義這些暗場本來它是榮與敏在那邊可能有養殖一頁嘛現在也沒辦法沒辦法連生計都出問題了所以這兩個現在第一個就是這個工程現在看起來好像變成爛尾樓變成爛尾樓所以有兩個部分現在要趕快去幫忙了我請部長、經濟部要趕快去處理就是這個工程一直延宕在那邊"},{"start":8003.732,"end":8023.368,"text":"然後講他剩下的就是詐騙集團他自己跟人家開發完之後開發的一半就留在那邊了那農藝林自己本來以這個為生對不對大家看一下這上個圖來我們跳回去上個圖給部長看一下這就是我家的議席你看這本來是市區的地方喔結果現在你看蓋了一半就丟在那裡了電也沒有發電"},{"start":8024.673,"end":8037.732,"text":"第二個農業移民的生計就受影響了地主也來埋怨你當初跟我這個租去的時候國營事業你要來租我的土地我們高興啊結果要兩公頃才可以開發嘛沒有開發完他也在那邊了那那個工程的做了一半"},{"start":8038.872,"end":8043.695,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":8068.413,"end":8072.857,"text":"現在離岸風電這個開發離岸風電開發現在不只台積電不願意買電喔買太貴嘛 對不對然後現在一度電是6塊錢所以現在政府想到一個辦法"},{"start":8089.67,"end":8115.27,"text":"我們自己要成立一個買電這個平臺現在政府找了中鋼、中華電信就是我們的國營事業這些換工股要去成立一個售電公司你要負責變成買電喔你明明外面一度賣6電就想整個地方買買政府你現在去那只有兩種結果嘛你買過來之後你自己用買6塊就是太貴了這是一個問題對不對第二種你要去賣電嘛"},{"start":8116.701,"end":8118.062,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們是考慮到當初他們在綠電買賣一千要二十年"},{"start":8134.52,"end":8162.402,"text":"二十年而且再買到一定的價格那對一些這個小的用綠電店戶比較不公平他沒有辦法一邊說一定要賣二十年嘛所以我們去成立這樣子的一個公司的目的是在服務那個小的綠電用戶讓他說不會被人家綁住二十年我們成立這個公司你欠多少要多少我就賣你多少第二個價格不可能高"},{"start":8163.861,"end":8188.669,"text":"我們就是比較低的價格來轉售這樣我聽你現在賣不出來就是因為一套賣六塊啊你說你要去買比較便宜你有把握可以買到一定是便宜所以我們先下第一個我們結論第一個不能買太貴的你說一度六塊要去買然後講五塊都已經過高了台積電三塊多台積電就不買啊我們用台積電的標準你如果到時候買不能夠買比台積電去買的貴好不好這是第一個第一台積電因為他是買"},{"start":8189.249,"end":8190.77,"text":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":8206.892,"end":8225.709,"text":"所以你畫一條線,你很清楚跟民眾講,你要去買電,你稅貴要再多少,不能夠比這個高?我們當然是會讓這個,因為其實報告委員,他如果選舉他就不會買啊就不會買,現在就是因為人家沒要買啊,現在政府要買,好第一個,所以我們下一個定論啦"},{"start":8226.489,"end":8246.602,"text":"不能買太貴部長對不對不能買太貴第一個你現在去考慮一下這會不會因為這樣子中鋼的錢中鋼要花比較多的錢這就是一種掏空喔賺到的錢是那些那些廠商對不對所以我們下兩個結論第一個不能買太貴第二個你現在回去檢討就我的了解是中鋼到目前他們都在抗拒嘛"},{"start":8247.142,"end":8250.806,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":8266.924,"end":8287.349,"text":"董事,這是所有人去買股票的,他們如果沒有通過他們通過,董事會通過同意的。抱歉,我再問另外一個問題比較重要,因為這個是牽扯到臺電的緣故,我問一個對嗎事情,因為我們今天,抱歉抱歉,馬上好,馬上好,因為是一個低薪的問題,我馬上好,只有談一個事情,保證我問一下事情,這段時間,欸,主席我問一個,因為訪台聽,我知道,你好,你好,我們幫"},{"start":8290.39,"end":8295.994,"text":"臺電的基層員工在反映一個很重要的事情臺電的員工我們是肯定他們很辛苦很努力的可是他們講了兩個事情有沒有超時工作的問題第二個更重要的你知道嗎"},{"start":8315.094,"end":8325.998,"text":"當縣市長已經宣布說颱風了可是當地的處長喔臺電當地的處長如果沒有宣布他是加班的話他去搶修是沒有颱風天的這個假期你知道他們去爬颱風天去搶修的時候爬電線桿一個小時加多少錢"},{"start":8334.043,"end":8358.861,"text":"謝謝 明天還有議程 明天還可以問才105塊 我跟你講 這個真的太少了又危險 錢又少所以第一個就是以後不要等處長宣布以後 以後只要是颱風天 縣市長宣布就是一個第二個 他們危險加急好不好 不要只有105塊要去幫他們好不好好 部長 謝謝好 部長請回座 其他官員請回座下一位質詢請鄭 鄭前委員"},{"start":8371.373,"end":8372.615,"text":"呃主席好我想請一下郭部長請經濟部部長"},{"start":8378.052,"end":8403.438,"text":"委員好部長好今天我們談的其實是那個低薪的問題不過我想說這跟低薪問題有關係還是跟國營事業這個部分有關那因為大家剛剛都在關心國營事業的一個調度那我剛剛發現你這邊在提到說國營事業部分的時候你提到說其實你知道可是你要往上沉所以我在想說是不是國營事業這當中可能會有很多綠油油的部分其實你可能也管不了"},{"start":8404.958,"end":8420.945,"text":"所以你就只能扮演一個過場的一個角色,就讓該層的往上層,然後所以你也不太想去管這個事情,部長?報告委員,因為我進公門,進來這個政府服務啊,時間比較短,所以我真的沒有辦法在短時間裡面"},{"start":8422.466,"end":8437.074,"text":"理解這個所有的運作那這個國營人士的這個移動這個是一定的制度在運作所以我國營司的司長是他的主管單位部長我在想說其實因為我認為你從"},{"start":8438.075,"end":8454.787,"text":"真的從企業界來在企業界也有一定的表現所以我其實一直很期待就企業界的經驗能夠帶給經濟部不一樣的一個表現那我這邊我想問一個台研的問題因為台研你知道台研持有台研綠人多少的股份你知道嗎?這個60%只有60%嗎?"},{"start":8462.602,"end":8467.126,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":8489.574,"end":8515.198,"text":"我是不是請國營師來回答這個問題?沒關係,其實你可以直接回答,這個部分用檢調去做處理,這個我認同我只是在想說對於這個國營企業單位當中這麼多綠油油的狀態的時候你這邊能夠發揮多少的影響力我希望你針對在原本企業界當中內機內控的一個能力能夠真的在國營企業當中的時候能夠好好地把它發揮下來,好不好?"},{"start":8515.578,"end":8543.927,"text":"好的我會根據這個委員的這個指示來進行OK那我想說因為我們今天在講這部分那其實坦白說我對於你的那個直率發言我都把它認為是一個很企業界的一個方式那事實上比方說坦白說很多委員覺得你的發言當中的時候呢也許在部長這個角色當中可能還不夠的一個謹慎那我對你有期待所以我希望你"},{"start":8544.787,"end":8556.8,"text":"在承諾事情當中的時候不一定要這麼樣的直率包括說你當時承諾大家比方說如果補助台電的錢下來之後如果在"},{"start":8558.223,"end":8558.903,"text":"進行報告：一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":8577.495,"end":8606.782,"text":"你剛剛直接講出來了我直接把它記錄下來是嘛你講了嘛對不對那針對雲報為了炒股講了不是的話你會要求金管會針對雲報的這個不適當的動作去做一些相關的一個監督嗎會會是不是是OK所以你下了我們質詢之後你就會要求金管會這邊針對雲報的不適當的發言去做一些相關的一個監督的動作因為它這個是六月的發言是"},{"start":8607.799,"end":8625.091,"text":"所以所以現在不知道有沒有還有沒有這個這個可以勾結的這個所以你還會再繼續往下去要求金管會去做類似的動作嗎因為你剛剛回答的很具體嘛我沒有認為你是草率的發言我認為你是很直率很企業界的發言是"},{"start":8626.592,"end":8650.95,"text":"那如果這樣的話我們就開始回到我們今天要特別講到低薪的問題因為我看了那個主計處的統計台灣的受僱勞工大概有800多萬人那麼製造業大概300多萬然後那個服務業大概500多萬那其中大概算是比較薪水好一點的製造業裡面大概只有ICT的產業然後大概有100多萬人左右"},{"start":8651.63,"end":8663.897,"text":"那麼在服務業當中的時候金融保險證券、醫療保健、運輸倉儲稍微高一點大概也在100多萬人就表示在台灣當中的時候呢處在就是"},{"start":8665.407,"end":8689.83,"text":"低薪的人非常非常的多我給部長一個簡單的數字在製造業當中有大概200萬製造業勞工平均薪資都在中位數51.8萬元以下部長你知道這個數字嗎?是那麼在整個服務業裡面的時候很多的產業他們的平均薪資只比基本工資高大概1萬元左右你也知道這個數字對不對?是"},{"start":8691.251,"end":8708.992,"text":"那我想問因為我們整個立法院議員中心提到我們國內心只有3D的一個現象第一個是國內生產GDP的分配給受僱人員比例低於每日韓這是第一D第二D的部分就是我們"},{"start":8710.305,"end":8725.554,"text":"低於平均薪資的勞工比例逐年增加這是第二低的部分第三低的部分是加薪的幅度低於通貨膨脹的一個幅度那這三低的部分的時候我想針對第一個部分就是"},{"start":8726.494,"end":8746.049,"text":"就是我們GDP當中分配給就是受僱者的一個比例我們用117年的數字跟107年的數字我們發現它是逐年的一個下降那麼針對這個部分的時候我想問一下部長你這邊有沒有具體的方式可以來逆轉這樣子的一個趨勢"},{"start":8747.31,"end":8764.215,"text":"報告委員 有 我們從兩個一個就是對企業從稅的部分來提高他有這個能力來加薪那這裡面重點就是說我們其實對這些比較小微的公司如果你加薪"},{"start":8764.955,"end":8779.727,"text":"如果你接受我們的輔導而賺錢你必須要加薪OK好那我想問一下因為我們中小企業發展條例36-2條的時候上半年的時候我們有修法執法什麼時候出來你沒有執法你沒有辦法真正去落實啊"},{"start":8781.77,"end":8807.959,"text":"報告委員,執法已經修好了,會在11月底開始11月底會正式實施對不對?11月底11月底嘛對不對?OK喔好,因為我在想說當我們修了中小企業發展條例36之2條之後我們需要讓它落實下來那我想問一下以目前符合我們中小企業發展條例36之2當中的時候我們中小企業163萬家當中有多少家可以適用?多少?"},{"start":8811.96,"end":8836.793,"text":"我講這個執法上面也會有名列部長我簡單跟你講一下因為我們目前有163萬家中小企業大概有30萬家是用查賬申報的方式有133萬家是用書審申報的方式只有用查賬申報的方式可以適用就表示我們有163萬家中小企業當中還有133萬家是沒辦法去適用這個部分的所以我本席希望經濟部這邊的時候針對"},{"start":8839.995,"end":8865.018,"text":"之後如果企業加薪應該要得到更多的一個鼓勵包括說政府的各項補助應該要把企業加薪當作參考的一個項目然後針對有研發創新抵稅的部分還有工業期進駐等等的部分都要把就是加薪當作經濟部在評估當中的一個要件可不可以是可以可以齁"},{"start":8867.299,"end":8879.247,"text":"謝謝部長那我想說針對這個低薪的部分我再問一個狀態中小企業白皮書你簽了這個序沒有?因為每年年底都有中小企業白皮書"},{"start":8880.612,"end":8905.519,"text":"已經同意了那準備要復印了所以你也已經簽了對不對因為中小企業那個按照2023年當中有一個很特殊的一個狀態就是因為他55歲以上的就業人口升高這是好事壯世代的發展這是好事可是對於受僱員工的平均月薪比前一年降低一千元降低一千元也就算了"},{"start":8905.839,"end":8928.164,"text":"重點是他們的工時還多出了3.6個小時針對這個部分我希望經濟部這邊針對這個部分給本席一個詳細的分析報告好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝曾政賢委員部長、列席官員請回座好消費資訊請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":8935.66,"end":8936.42,"text":"經濟部部長郭文貴議員"},{"start":8944.85,"end":8972.708,"text":"是部長好我們今天呢稍微排了這個低薪的議題關注青年跟基層我非常的認同那所以我在這個專訪看到專訪的記錄裡頭當你接上部長的時候你接受專訪你曾經說你看到薪水啊你嚇了一跳你嚇了一跳怎麼那麼少啊是不是少一個零是嗎"},{"start":8974.713,"end":8990.399,"text":"是的是的那所以呢你最能夠了解我們整個低薪的狀態到底要怎麼去做所以本席要跟你討論的是我們台灣現在目前面臨的貧富差距非常的大"},{"start":8990.979,"end":9014.834,"text":"尤其我們一定要支持我們的青年人以及在基層低薪的這個問題政府有責任一定要去好好的把它做規劃因為這個會影響到整個流財的一個穩定性跟勞動力的一個條件那整個社會的公平跟產業競爭力這些的面向都必須由政府來作為整體性的多項因應的這個方案"},{"start":9017.676,"end":9025.281,"text":"說比如說研擬修正就業服務法那將這個薪資的部分來揭露這個門檻由現行的4萬提升到5萬也有將研議將一定的薪資門檻那麼納入在上市櫃的這個公司申請許可核准審核最重要的標準是不是"},{"start":9040.931,"end":9062.147,"text":"是就是說從源頭來做規劃那本席非常的肯定這樣的態度但是我要主張的是更應該要關注到我們基層員工的心情才不會像你拿到的薪水單嚇了一跳是不是少了一個零所以我在這邊要請教針對於公司法第2"},{"start":9065.43,"end":9086.572,"text":"第235條之一的條文要來進行修正你們有沒有這個方向也就是希望能夠達到真正幫助在基層加薪的效果你們有沒有這樣言理我也要請國防會主委也一併上來回答針對於公司法第235條之一的條文有沒有言理請教"},{"start":9088.324,"end":9109.377,"text":"我想我們都會按照這個現行公司法的規定那在這個分派酬勞的時候這是現行但是不足以應對我們的基層所以會不會修公司法的第235條之一的條文真正落實來照顧基層"},{"start":9110.54,"end":9111.421,"text":"的心情,有沒有這個預計?"},{"start":9125.56,"end":9149.049,"text":"本期就開始提案我們也這一屆也會提案再進來但是這委員的版本是不夠的所以我首先要請我謝謝郭部長你願意要將公司法的第235條之一我們要提出來做討論真正的怎麼樣落實在我們的基層的員工薪資那我也請那個國防會主委您的回答呢 您的立場"},{"start":9151.089,"end":9171.798,"text":"公司法是由經濟部的全責啦那基本上我們會支持經濟部的決定支持啊好那我們實質來討論部長你是不是會納入公司應將章程明定呢以當年度獲利狀況的定額或者是比例來分配給員工的酬勞以及調整基層員工的薪資"},{"start":9174.945,"end":9185.843,"text":"不得低於消費者物價指數年增率調整的幅度或者是不得低於同業利潤同業利潤的平均加薪比例會不會認同"},{"start":9187.318,"end":9190.121,"text":"這個我們來考慮一下因為它有點困難每一個行業不一樣啊對 所以本席特別提出啊你不得低於消費者的物價指數年增率調整啊本席只是跟你討論是不是也將這個"},{"start":9206.917,"end":9206.957,"text":"主席"},{"start":9222.39,"end":9250.876,"text":"你的就業人數也將近有913萬2千人中小企業的加數是163萬所以我們沒有理由不照顧他們照顧他們等於就是照顧到我們的基層員工所以剛剛所講的這三項也就是公書法的第236條之一235條之一我們行政部門認為必須要做整體性的去考量其中最重要的也就是員工酬勞以及他"},{"start":9251.656,"end":9270.364,"text":"及公司所得利潤的一個比例那麼我們應該提出來做整體性的一個討論而且不得低於消費者物價指數年增率的一個調整或者是不得低於同月平均加薪的比例這一些都是得到"},{"start":9271.044,"end":9274.567,"text":"經濟部和國防會認同必須拿出來做檢討所以本席請教部長你們檢討多久時間你們可以有方案出來這個我們回去可能主要還是要跟經管會討論你們大概有多久時間可以給我一個方案可以控制的範圍下來做"},{"start":9290.2,"end":9298.023,"text":"我想這個因為跨部門我想要三個月吧好 那麼我們就promise三個月的時間那麼你們將你們的方案提出那麼我們也會提出這個委員版的這個235條之一大家好好實務的來照顧我們真正的這個員工的低薪的問題"},{"start":9310.487,"end":9324.212,"text":"那接下來本期要跟你討論的也就是中小企業我經常跟您說的這個數字告訴你98%企業佔比率那所以我們這些中小企業您更應該要支持他們綠電的獲得是嗎"},{"start":9327.213,"end":9353.884,"text":"你點頭齁,所以因為之前您說過要給回答,我也很支持請說明沒有啦,那個100億度,我剛才已經講過,那是假的命題啦假的命題啦,這就說得清楚了,保證命題來自產業我剛才有跟那個委員齁,我們都有溝通過啦所以這是沒有用的事情,你也說明了齁那個回答也跟我們證明了,就是他沒有要買這麼多的這個那他要買多少?"},{"start":9355.06,"end":9355.38,"text":"因為中小企業的銷售總額超過了28兆"},{"start":9373.442,"end":9378.767,"text":"他的占比超過了五成出口總額3.6兆所以在這種年增率每一年超過7%你看那台灣人我怕病所以政府更有責任也有義務要好好的照顧他們對不對因為他們是台灣經濟最重要的基礎的一個重要基石所以未來我們很重要的就是挑戰"},{"start":9396.525,"end":9422.138,"text":"這一個中小企業政府如何去輔導他們如何去輔導他們這個是非常重要那剛剛我們在前兩次呢本席也跟你討論也跟國防會主委討論過也就是112年去年第四季台電推動的相關適合中小企業他們有一個專案小額的綠電商品那麼他們的申請只有126家得標他的得標量只有643萬這個這個這個這個"},{"start":9427.52,"end":9451.125,"text":"那這樣的條件我們知道量不夠加速也不夠所以本期要請教你要怎麼樣去輔導我們整個中小企業可以獲得綠電那麼或許是結合我們整個中小企業的團體組織來合辦活動來發揮它的作效啊要不然你一年度只有一百二十六家得標那這個這個太少了啦太少了改變形態改變形態那請教部長"},{"start":9454.646,"end":9467.73,"text":"滿足他們那改變形態你的方案要怎麼做方案我們都有討論都有討論什麼時候可以給本席我們要告訴我們的中小企業啊你這個數字拿出來112年拿出來不會看的啊 難看啊年底以前現在11月嘛那就在12月底以前拿出怎麼樣對我們中小企業協助綠電的方式來跟我們來好好的來討論對不對最後一分鐘好不好最後請教喔"},{"start":9482.995,"end":9484.457,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":9502.398,"end":9503.118,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":9531.694,"end":9533.334,"text":"主席首先有請國安會國安會的牛主委"},{"start":9567.138,"end":9590.444,"text":"劉卓偉今天主要是討論青年低薪的一個問題這是很頭痛還是很複雜的問題尤其你是在經營以前顧問公司裡面當最大的都是人家請教你你從民間到政府機關你有沒有發覺這個問題很嚴重這個我有感受到"},{"start":9596.627,"end":9606.56,"text":"還有我有感受到您以前是高高在上都是上司公司來請教你大概都沒有跟你談到基層員工管理各方面的問題"},{"start":9608.514,"end":9631.755,"text":"今天青年低薪的時候為什麼會造成這樣的一個環境?你有沒有仔細稍微研究一下?這個有你告訴我,外營在哪裡?我們其實有去研究它是有幾個部分一個是企業有能力不願意加薪另外一種是"},{"start":9633.436,"end":9656.849,"text":"沒有能力齁,他有意願也沒用,然後呢沒意願也有,那我...然後,這裡面再分出來齁,他所待的產業跟公司賺不賺錢,公司沒賺錢是沒辦法的齁,再來就是,區域也是一個問題啦。現在我分到很多傳染產業怎麼講,那些老一輩啦,我說啊你不能賺錢怎麼賺,我說打平就好。"},{"start":9657.529,"end":9686.581,"text":"那些老員工跟我幾十年了我只要把他阿倫道退休我要把工廠關掉所以大家思想你們常常在說企業高台灣人很有感情的企業高要讓大家賺錢給別人工會越來越好地所以我覺得一些觀念還是要改變其實青年的低薪就是我們政策的錯誤我們政策的錯誤在哪裡?選舉所導致的一個絕望"},{"start":9687.85,"end":9700.263,"text":"我們以前為了名聲,所以說什麼萬般皆下平,唯有獨自高,大家就拚命設立起來,大家都在海上比價,以前在海上救。"},{"start":9701.598,"end":9702.439,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":9730.018,"end":9731.179,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準。"},{"start":9756.821,"end":9784.609,"text":"今天這個小確幸,帶來我們很多整個政策的一個錯誤。在第三點,你起了改過來,我們補充了才知道,台灣人很會抬價小,一比市場台灣太小,一來這邊比較的時候價格就一直殺來殺去,本來有優秀的東西,非常優質的公司抬來抬價小,所以這裡面參加了一種非常多的因素。"},{"start":9785.689,"end":9811.726,"text":"所以我在這,您現在是執政者,您是政治家,應該你們要從頭徹底跟台灣人所有講,包括總統,不要為了選票。其實這個世界很無情的,我相信您站出來,贏則亂,敗則苦。我們一定要改變這樣的觀念,你才有辦法把這低薪的制度弄好。"},{"start":9812.728,"end":9840.183,"text":"現在很多人,你說找人,什麼是有希望的產業,什麼是未來的產業,什麼是傳統產業裡面要怎樣來,現在水電工很強,水電工要做都要幾十萬,十幾萬,現在連電燃工,如果你好了二三十萬,現在都找不到人,因為我們把以前技職、教育、信念的一批的人才全部不見了,"},{"start":9841.584,"end":9844.287,"text":"因應對策．暨如何促進企業提升青年及基層員工薪資水準。"},{"start":9859.648,"end":9862.63,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":9882.441,"end":9908.095,"text":"你本來信任這個基本要素,我們要請外來的移工,他去做領班,薪水才管得起來。所以你沒有討論今天是以實役,大家都在說有的沒的。我真的很難過。我不曉得執委你怎麼想法。部長在校,你一起就出來了,你知道嗎?你剛才是怎麼變的,我是討論。這個沒有根本改造的結果,你沒有辦法改變。"},{"start":9909.156,"end":9929.054,"text":"你要未雨綢繆,你們要有敢說,未來幾個企業裡面,我們可能什麼最忒樂,你就從這樣子下去嘛。混人家人,雖然外來的移工把台灣人做成外來移工的領頭者帶著去,到整個世界都能走遍,這是我的看法。"},{"start":9934.419,"end":9947.812,"text":"其實我們有整理了一個八大策略那其中一個跟您講的是很像的現在狀況是其實你剛剛講焊接工二、三十萬的確我們也看到外面現在資深技術勞工可以到18萬、19萬一個月還請不到人"},{"start":9950.254,"end":9974.667,"text":"但是問題是就有一些人在他的能力上面並不匹配你說的啦,就是高高在讀學歷太高父母不願意小孩子去碰觸這個你一定要跟他們說嘛,我們不能感覺表面好我相信你們都是拿陪伴啊出來,拿到這安若地拚到不想你就為代拚嘛我們的條件不一樣,我們要講出我們自己所面臨環境,我們要接受挑戰"},{"start":9975.868,"end":9999.43,"text":"您說的那樣,黃金生說,現在不是用走的,要用跑的嘛。這時代沒有什麼,你應該好好真正的提示幾個,說我整個行業,我欠人,欠人,說不用怕,把它變成一個領工。要先懂、要先做,再來帶一批人啦。我的看法是怎麼樣,你跟安娜說、提高那些,現在出大家買不去耶。"},{"start":10000.831,"end":10023.142,"text":"我真的講,難怪他們新會議了。你要創造希望,給他創造未來啊。你是資訊顧問,大家要跟你請教。我真的講,要徹底的改造。真的愛台灣是這樣愛的。不是用政治口號愛的。你們起來,我相信你們要講實話。真正的跟總統報告。"},{"start":10024.287,"end":10041.273,"text":"要做大事的人是這樣做的我們兩個看的一樣我找個時間提我那八項我們兩個跟你討論一下我們一起把它再延伸一下你們兩個現在是最熱門人物提出的idea點子最多希望能很踏實"},{"start":10042.373,"end":10061.031,"text":"去啊蓋啊,不踏實做不出程序啊。像我們董事長的從業以前小公司這樣做出來也很不簡單。這是一步一腳印,這是真夠煎熬跟折磨出來的捏。部長您談談您的看法。我真的講啊,沒說這些啦。"},{"start":10061.852,"end":10064.917,"text":"我國青年低薪成因檢討及因應對策．暨如何促進企業提升青年及基層員工"},{"start":10074.093,"end":10074.533,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長："},{"start":10103.7,"end":10119.813,"text":"好,謝謝陳常委員。語重心長的質詢,憂國憂民的精神令人感佩。請部長跟主委先回座。著實令人感動跟感佩。現在休息三分鐘。"},{"start":10134.316,"end":10138.759,"text":"我國青年低薪成因檢討及因應對策，暨如何促進企業提升青年及基層員工資水準。"},{"start":10160.35,"end":10166.357,"text":"我國青年低薪成因檢討及因應對策．暨如何促進企業提升青年及基層員工資水準。"},{"start":10179.552,"end":10181.693,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":10208.429,"end":10211.973,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":10227.64,"end":10229.363,"text":"主任是面對自動化社會的問題。"},{"start":10244.114,"end":10247.597,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":10264.239,"end":10264.62,"text":"對﹐現在﹐現在﹐現在﹐對﹐對﹐對﹐對﹐"},{"start":10288.524,"end":10305.828,"text":"對﹚"},{"start":10343.681,"end":10347.303,"text":"好,列席官員請就座我們繼續開會"},{"start":10349.392,"end":10368.16,"text":"下一位質詢請鄭天才委員主席、各位委員、有請國發會主委、這個勞動部、還有教育部青年發展署"},{"start":10377.779,"end":10402.79,"text":"教育部青發署陳署長各位好這個委員早國發會有人力發展處人力發展處但我先引用這個教育部的青年發展署的組織法這個長理的事項青年發展政策青年生涯發展規劃青年職場體驗很多"},{"start":10406.681,"end":10434.106,"text":"這個如果你們在一部青年發展署或是國發會你們去看這個青年發展署他們的預算的編列或是他們實際的每一年辦的事情運作就會發現跟我們今天的主題跟我們今天的主題是比較欠缺我是從這樣"},{"start":10436.007,"end":10454.922,"text":"當然這個青年發展組成立很久了,102年6月19號這個組織法就通過就開始成立了。那我們看教育部的報告裡面,他提到是勞動部整合了這個相關的部會,包括國發會、經濟部。"},{"start":10459.737,"end":10484.98,"text":"針對這個：而且一直到108年去年發展署102年就成立了102年一到108年當然還是要謝謝勞動部這個就是行政院整合了這些相關的部會投資青年就業方案108開始然後這個1、2又是第二期第二期"},{"start":10486.038,"end":10503.851,"text":"在這樣的一個情形之下我們看我們整個失業率失業率都是在百分之四點多一直往下降現在三點多了現在三點多三點四三點四對不對三點四"},{"start":10506.397,"end":10525.295,"text":"但是我們的青年失業率百分之八這是一百一十二年青年的失業率百分之八這個相關的理由當然我們看薪資也是一樣都很低薪資都很低這個"},{"start":10528.632,"end":10556.089,"text":"教育部的說明：青年低薪成因青年因出入職場工作經驗、年資、技能不足或未充分就業所以這個部分這個因為教育部青年署就在教育部那你怎麼樣去把這些原因然後去跟高教師高教師"},{"start":10557.766,"end":10583.476,"text":"來去協調怎麼樣去協調產業包括各大學這個部分都是要去聯貫、去落實、去推動我今天沒有引用這個國發會的資料最主要就是說國發會基於一個統合的一個"},{"start":10584.741,"end":10602.446,"text":"及經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":10605.109,"end":10622.322,"text":"加強這些相關的無論是科系、大學或是跟產業去一個一個去結合去推動都是需要這個去加強的部分這個主委你認為呢?"},{"start":10625.501,"end":10650.832,"text":"委員提的是對的那我們其實除了這個以外我們也在嘗試協助青年轉型據說文科的可能他如果希望改變我們其實現在也有教育部在推動STAND的方案另外我們之前也跟勞動部長討論了就希望協助一些青年到了職場上還是可以有機會斜槓跟轉型"},{"start":10652.953,"end":10676.514,"text":"另外還有一個區域的問題在成鄉的差距我們也嘗試要縮減所以我們現在透過產業園區的規劃也正在希望平衡成鄉第二個是加速交通的建設讓青年可以比較能夠到移動的比較方便可以找到比較好的就業機會這幾個角度我們其實都在試著去改變它"},{"start":10678.075,"end":10698.105,"text":"另外我們也試著去要求在未來在IPO就是要申請上市的企業他必須要有一定的平均薪資做標準等等我們都在改善那包括我們現在連本會我們都改了我們直接就要比最低工資高像我們已經調到3萬1200塊了我們都有在積極的去做改變第一個當然要先解決失業率"},{"start":10705.89,"end":10707.531,"text":"進行報告：一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":10721.577,"end":10746.426,"text":"四點多將近百分之五所以這個部分是要去首先要去解決的部分然後呢這個低薪的成因知道了怎麼樣去剛我已經講了我就不再重複了勞動部的報告提升最低工資就是基本工資了已經連續九年調升連續九年調升"},{"start":10750.307,"end":10778.915,"text":"總調幅近42.9%這樣的一個基本工資調薪每一次基本工資調薪我就會想到底企業會配合基本工資調薪除了最低薪的職員或是員工之外其他的"},{"start":10780.475,"end":10795.082,"text":"已經高於基本工資的他是不是會跟著調我們現在沒有機制 有機制嗎有沒有只能欠只能呼籲目前好像就只有呼籲這勞動部"},{"start":10800.081,"end":10825.547,"text":"現在只有呼籲希望能夠配合調心勞工的部分因為基本上來講我們現在的基本工資調整來講第一個我們先看整個消費物價指數然後去做一個整理性的考量之後那大概現在可以看得到就是我們的基本工它是照顧到邊際勞工但是我們也希望企業能夠分任給員工所以基本上我們現在開始也跟經管要合作然後包含到以後將來它的"},{"start":10827.307,"end":10849.259,"text":"非主管職的全職員工的薪資變動比然後那男女工資的差別的距離的部分我們都希望能夠在我們的公司治理報告書上面能夠呈現出來那也能夠讓大家看得到我想這是我們在做的問題所以主委包括我們今天沒有請他上來的經濟部或是勞動部"},{"start":10853.537,"end":10874.039,"text":"教育部、勞動部當然最重要怎麼樣在相關的法律有沒有可能就像軍公教對不對條薪的時候不是只有最基層的不是最低薪的條全部都條"},{"start":10875.62,"end":10885.037,"text":"從最低薪的職員、二職等、書記一直到最高的所以這個部分是要去推動甚至可能要立法"},{"start":10885.816,"end":10886.956,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":10915.847,"end":10918.97,"text":"下一位質詢請蔡議員今天上午的質詢到12點截止下午我們2點半再繼續開會好 謝謝"},{"start":10943.666,"end":10960.795,"text":"是不是有請我們經濟部部長經濟部部部長委員好部長這個今年颱風比較多"},{"start":10962.731,"end":10979.506,"text":"那颱風天最重要的,也最辛苦的,就是台電的維修人員,以防台天,我們大家都要怎麼避險,可是他們要去修復電力,所以他們是往危險的地方走。"},{"start":10980.527,"end":10999.056,"text":"那所以可以想像的就是說你在颱風天這些維修人員第一個他們工作辛苦那我想要請教因為我台電也有在旁邊齁如果部長有不清楚你就可以直接回答就是說這些台電的維修人員他們在颱風天出勤他們的薪水有沒有增加"},{"start":11000.716,"end":11024.565,"text":"呃,有加班費,但是實際的狀況我來請這個臺電的部長來跟各位報告因為我知道更實際的狀況比你臺電還要清楚是,我們臺風天出勤有另外有危險增添有危險增添嘛,對不對是,我們危險增添是10月1號,我們國營市才剛調,調了70%那個是指臺電的內部維修人員,但是現在臺電內部維修人員越來越少了,你們現在是不是都外包"},{"start":11025.852,"end":11045.441,"text":"有一半是外包的幾乎啦,依我在嘉義看,超過一半是外包好,你們外包的時候,你們請求外包單位在颱風天出去工作的時候有沒有額外給他們加擠我們是加擠,你給外包公司另外的幾副計算的方式完全不一樣,颱風他是按時間給價"},{"start":11048.942,"end":11063.275,"text":"好,計算方式不一樣。我跟你說,大概一些維修人員的心聲,外包公司的維修人員幾乎都不想在颱風天出來工作。第一,費用。第二,外包公司也沒有額外給他錢啊。"},{"start":11065.56,"end":11082.608,"text":"沒有啊,你們給外包公司颱風天另外記下,他也沒有另外給那些維修人員啊所以對於他們那些維修人員來說,颱風天出來多危險啊所以你知道現在颱風天在於這個地方維修的效率越來越差"},{"start":11084.858,"end":11108.534,"text":"比你們因為最近才開始大放外包以前大概都是台電自己內部的維修嘛現在開始把它轉成一半是外包那你一半外包的時候你們對於外包公司他們對於員工的一些照顧以及在危險危險應該要額外給津貼的時候你們有算給他OK這個是應該要算的但是你們卻沒有進一步的去督促"},{"start":11109.375,"end":11127.764,"text":"他外包公司有沒有把應該要額外算給他的,如實全部給他的員工,出來維修的員工?這個我們要求。你們第一個要求。第二個,如果要要求的話,你們應該要要求這一些出來工作的員工要有編號。"},{"start":11130.397,"end":11152.467,"text":"我們有編號,編號要清楚嘛,那你們台電要做的工作很簡單啊,你就叫人出來選選看這裡的人做行為,就知道這裡的編號有出來,這裡的編號有出來,就這裡的人要給他們錢,這樣第一個避免備用人頭,因為外包公司品質我們怎樣不知道,可是我們要把制度設計好"},{"start":11154.428,"end":11170.061,"text":"這裏真的有來做的,就應該他們有做,就要給人們。是,應該,應該。所以你們這個制度要用好,不然我在颱風天我就背到那些維修人員,因為我們這層頭也要修理,那層頭也要修理,我們也都去那裡說,你們這裡修理好了嗎?我就是怕說,我們這樣一天說下去,我就說,這樣中途來,我們快寬把包還是什麼。當然我們也是希望,他們的卡丘那麼快。"},{"start":11181.59,"end":11199.158,"text":"但是我們不能互相催促啊!但是齁,我在跟他們互動的過程中,我很聽到他們的心聲,讓我覺得很難過。是,感謝委員。這…我們…風太天的待遇和包廂是很好的待遇啦!我知道!你讓包廂這麼好啊!所以包廂我們說風太天出來OK啊!但是他們的人一定不會出來啊!"},{"start":11200.462,"end":11201.983,"text":"一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":11229.881,"end":11235.731,"text":"好,那臺電的可以請先回,那我們再請那個今天產業園區署有來嗎?沒有嗎?產發署,楊署長"},{"start":11240.929,"end":11269.788,"text":"好部長那我再接下去問所以我們現在有很多產業園區事實上我們產業園區我們第一個需要勞動力但是這些勞動力他們現在對於尤其在偏鄉像我們嘉義的產業園區不管是南進或是中埔的這樣的產業園區基本上相對於北部來說對年輕人來說比較偏鄉比較偏鄉基本上生活機能是比較不好的"},{"start":11270.288,"end":11283.602,"text":"所以我跟部長我具體建議啦因為時間沒有剩很多我具體建議說我們產業園區署是不是都有一塊地要整起來變成這個產業園區的這個辦公室每個地方都有嘛"},{"start":11284.997,"end":11309.218,"text":"我們都有服務中心我的具體建議啦我們因為現在國家在蓋社會住宅事實上在找公有地很困難你們為什麼這樣的一個服務中心跟社會住宅不能整併在一起然後讓這一些在產業園區上面的員工他可以就近有便宜的房子可以租那這樣的話對於他們來"},{"start":11312.04,"end":11331.958,"text":"來這個產業園區上班。第一個,我們希望產業園區的企業可以照顧他的員工,薪水要高。如果他又可以就近,有地方可以住,然後他也可以省下他很大的交通費。阿你既然那裡有工地,工地你的服務中心都差不多去一樓、二樓、三樓啦。"},{"start":11332.719,"end":11333.2,"text":"進行報告：一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":11350.063,"end":11365.139,"text":"謝謝委員我想你這個這個意見非常的好那我們會帶回去跟國土署跟國土署可以商量一下跟內政部我想我們充分的來討論快速的討論解決現在目前的問題好我覺得這一點因為現在有一些產業園區還在興建中"},{"start":11368.542,"end":11383.03,"text":"像我們嘉義的南徑、中埔的公館、水商南徑這個財源區還在興建,所以這個服務中心還沒有蓋好,也還沒有開始所以現在去規劃,剛好讓那裡有社會住宅,這樣起來我覺得就是一個很適當的方式好不好好,那這部分就期待部長朝這方向來努力還有剛剛台電那一件事情,我覺得我們要督促好"},{"start":11393.816,"end":11418.973,"text":"讓下一次訪台聽的時候,再來外包公司的工人一樣感受到替國家賣命、替國家來努力是有他的報酬的。好不好?好,謝謝。謝謝蔡議員,時間掌握非常精準,令主席敬佩。請部長回座。"},{"start":11432.022,"end":11433.003,"text":"邀請邱志維委員質詢中油鋼交接"},{"start":11455.936,"end":11481.053,"text":"董總剛交接,但是中油啊,它那個今年大概累計虧損全年大概到600多億,637億這種狀況啊,每年的利息負擔大概100億還用因為政策的關係承受政策的負擔,所以它吸收這些成本所以累計的這個虧損啊,大概已經好幾千億了,大概接近4千億嘛"},{"start":11482.284,"end":11510.781,"text":"那這種情況這個我們中油為了要使民生跟住宅用電能夠不受調漲然後他提出請行政院撥補一千億來彌補這個1.18元的缺口所以讓民生跟住宅用電可以維持、可以動長但當然同樣國營事業中油跟台電都是跟民生相關台電可以由政府來撥補兩千億"},{"start":11512.441,"end":11533.691,"text":"那當然油氣要漲他才能反映成本新的董事長他也提出希望能夠適度合理的調整油氣的價格另外也提出四年3500億的不管是增資或者是由政府來撥補這個部分啊經濟部的立場是如何怎麼是有沒有"},{"start":11534.432,"end":11558.887,"text":"報告委員我想價格的部分必須由價格審議委員會來做決定那董事長我們建議不要輕易的這個來談這個樣的價格的事情他是在就職的時候說出這個而且他提增資或者撥補不是現在才提的提了很久我想各種財務上面的這個考量剛才這個委員就教的非常好我想改善財務的方法當然有很多"},{"start":11559.793,"end":11584.293,"text":"那中油的虧損其實是並不大它是負債 借款很多啦借款大概七、八千億所以它的利息就一百億吧所以它的虧損並不那麼大但是它的財務的確發生困難啦不管你用什麼方式解決撥補或者增資我想行政院或者經濟部要有一定的立場不能拖啦 對 我們跟主計處"},{"start":11587.976,"end":11613.453,"text":"還有國營私來共同討論這個事情如何來解決他的財務問題另外美國總統大選到目前為止的情況好像有一點點明朗但是還沒確定在未來我們當時產生了第10條之二的部分我們針對台灣版所謂的晶片法案提供很多優惠"},{"start":11614.864,"end":11635.354,"text":"如果按照這個如果新的共和黨的眾議院議長加上如果未來如果是川普當選的話對晶片會課稅的話增加我們先進製程的這個成本那這種情況我們當時修了10條12的優惠大概只能適用4家"},{"start":11636.604,"end":11660.883,"text":"未來經濟部有沒有考慮要維持先進製程的競爭力降低它成本有沒有可能在未來再考慮再把門檻再調整我想我們會因時因地而質疑我想經濟部一向就是滾動式的調整來因應整個環境的改變所以委員在提議的這個部分我們會深刻地來考慮"},{"start":11661.964,"end":11686.444,"text":"我擔心說我們的最大優勢是先進製程,先進製程不見得有優勢,先進製程的優勢一定要確保另外請國安會主委主委,所謂低薪如果按照OECD的標準,OECD定義低薪總薪資中位數的三分之二"},{"start":11687.355,"end":11689.476,"text":"那負稅署負稅署那個財政負稅署"},{"start":11718.948,"end":11733.88,"text":"跟委員報告用GDP來看比較根據國外目前累積14年的分析出來的結果GDP的成長對薪資的最高位數跟最低位數會有會有比較大的影響那"},{"start":11735.48,"end":11762.042,"text":"那它為什麼會有很大的影響以最高位數主要是資本利得在GDP成長不高的時候會影響到那低薪的部分分成兩部分一種是以退休的人員來看它會有受到很大的影響因為貨幣政策造成的影響的確這是一個事實這是一個數據我們LVCD國家我們的這個人均GDP的最低工資的比例是最低的"},{"start":11762.682,"end":11791.833,"text":"所以這部分代表說你顯現出的確是有低薪問題而且是青年低薪而且是集中在中小型企業或者服務業的低薪對不對這部分國安會應該整合各部會來協調比如說為什麼請賦稅署來或者怎麼樣用提供這個租稅優惠讓企業提供誘因給企業提供誘因來對員工加薪如果你對企業提供加薪我就對你這個稅賦有相關的這個誘因要想一些方法"},{"start":11792.433,"end":11802.021,"text":"這是很好的方法。這是很好的方法,也許我們看看負稅署願不願意支持。負稅署報告,我們的中小企業發展條約今年剛完成修法,那有提供中小企業加薪減稅的措施。"},{"start":11823.185,"end":11829.263,"text":"這個太籠統了你看一下中小企業借貸的管道中小企業應該是政府要高度扶持"},{"start":11830,"end":11856.304,"text":"因為他相對的他的這個資本他的這個相關籌資管道不夠所以你看他政府提供給中小企業貸款條件限制多條件嚴苛、名額有限、使用時間長這部分也是要國會去協調財政部門去做對,這個部分也在我們這次新公告的方案之一就是如果企業願意去調薪的話我們也會在貸款上面給予支持"},{"start":11856.846,"end":11885.478,"text":"所以這個很多政策啊你們應該要更積極要開放而且力道要強一點下的要某一點而且你要設定一個這個KPI一個目標值你到民國幾年你要達到這個平均薪資要多少錢服務業平均薪資然後中小型企業製造業平均薪資要達到多少錢這個你一定要設定很嚴謹的目標然後按照這個目標你隨時每年度甚至每個月去管控"},{"start":11886.488,"end":11914.349,"text":"所以為什麼產發署要那麼重要為什麼中小企業發展署那麼重要因為經濟部下面所屬的跟中小企業相關的就是產發署就是中小企業署跟這個商發署嘛但相對產業弱勢但是是我們所有市民、百姓、國民、國人同胞在從事的行業都是中小企業為主對不對都是服務業為主但是飽受地心之苦所以這個很多的問題我想"},{"start":11916.107,"end":11916.227,"text":"議員主席議員"},{"start":11942.148,"end":11969.175,"text":"哇!召委以身作則!分秒不差!太厲害了!好!謝謝!我們下一位請侯孟凱委員"},{"start":11976.985,"end":11978.888,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請經濟部長跟國發會主委請國發會留主委跟經濟部國部長"},{"start":11986.313,"end":12012.332,"text":"來,國部長我先請教因為菲律賓買電的這個議題本來以為這只是兩三個禮拜前你提出來那後來這兩天又持續延燒業界認為是說是因為台灣現在缺再生能源恐急所以說才會動到菲律賓去估算認為說你即便是把電纜、儲能跟電網輸送等根本不可能每電低於四塊這樣的一個價格"},{"start":12014.033,"end":12023.319,"text":"不知道部長有沒有看到這樣的一個訊息我先請教一下菲律賓現在光電占他全國的百分之幾報告委員"},{"start":12032.492,"end":12058.294,"text":"菲律賓的光電是不具競爭力的菲律賓現在光電佔他們全國百分之幾?知道嗎?我不知道你不知道?菲律賓光電佔他全國發電的百分之2.4臺灣光電現在佔我們全國發電百分之幾?我們目前大概目標目前2024年今年現在此時此刻也不知道部長"},{"start":12059.824,"end":12079.931,"text":"你不知道菲律賓發電站、光電站他們全國發電百分之幾你也不知道台灣光電站全國發電百分之幾然後結果你現在意想天開認為是說我們可以去跟菲律賓買電報告委員我不是意想天開我今天也講得非常清楚在國際貿易理論裡面有一個非常重要的理論"},{"start":12081.44,"end":12110.087,"text":"有一個非常重要的理論叫做藥術貶負理論企業的競爭力是國際的...我等一下讓你講因為朝委的時間控制很嚴格我沒有辦法讓你講其他的我只要你直接回答問題菲律賓光電在百分之全國2.4那菲律賓光電因為我們台灣目前為止是禁止中國製的光電模組跟電池對不對那菲律賓的光電它大部分都是哪一個國家製作的"},{"start":12111.598,"end":12134.315,"text":"菲律賓大部分應該都是中國的吧中國的對所以我們現在是要去跟菲律賓買電以你的構想跟邏輯要跟菲律賓買電然後菲律賓用的是中國製的光電跟電池哇 這種講法如果說看在我們偉大的民進黨政府抗中保台的立場上你根本就是中共同路人啊你根本就是資匪了你知道嗎"},{"start":12135.629,"end":12164.132,"text":"你會想出這樣的想法菲律賓的光電如同你剛剛說的有80%以上甚至有人講說可能高90%都是大陸製的光電模組跟電池結果我們今天居然想是說我們台灣的本土產業或者是像國發會之前投入了30億投資綠能國家隊我們當初綠能國家隊不管是光電不管是風力發電我們是不是都是有很重要一個使命是要培植本土產業"},{"start":12164.853,"end":12168.655,"text":"希望讓我們臺灣的產業能夠有永續發展的可能性。來,諸位。是嗎?然後結果現在有一個經濟部長講是說我們現在臺灣的本土產業不一定那麼重要。我們到菲律賓去買電。菲律賓買電的光電模組是中國大陸製的。那請教一下,我們是不是把我們的錢"},{"start":12187.881,"end":12210.643,"text":"某種程度上人家還不用出口轉內箱還不用去洗產地他直接在菲律賓裡面就可以用Made in China的光電模組來種電來 主委我再請教因為國發會有能源政策跟相關的2050淨零碳排的路徑請教過去到現在討論能源政策也好或討論淨零碳排路徑有沒有曾經討論過跟國外買電的可能性"},{"start":12213.751,"end":12227.538,"text":"在哪一次?白皮書裡面有沒有?目前是沒有沒有?所以你身後的這位部長過去到現在也沒有跟國發會有提過說我們可以跟國外買電,是不是這樣?你是也是從新聞上看到的?"},{"start":12228.955,"end":12256.743,"text":"是不是從新聞上看到的你直接講這個是未來我們都在找多元理是不是從新聞上看到的第一次是從新聞看到的是 謝謝但是跟委員報告國家發展委員會主委證實了經濟部部長的這個想法沒有跟國家發展委員會討論過並且也是在新聞上看到的他不需要跟我討論因為人員政策稍微也站起來了感謝大家 謝謝人員局的責任所以人員政策是不需要跟我討論的謝謝彭孟海委員時間掌握非常的精準謝謝"},{"start":12259.725,"end":12287.04,"text":"下一位我們今天已經宣告過到12點12點上午的質詢結束那這場徐宇貞委員在我知道啦你不要急嘛我是說他如果發言時間超過10到12點你就要到下午2點半了那我們今天上午是到徐宇貞委員質詢結束接下來質詢請葉元之委員"},{"start":12294.572,"end":12295.673,"text":"麻煩請國防會主委請國防會劉主委"},{"start":12313.635,"end":12340.381,"text":"委員早昨天好,跟你請教一下那個文化部長李遠他說他為了要救台灣影視產業讓台灣的影視產業外銷可以增加所以跟你另外要了一個一百億希望能夠打造台灣的自己的最大的OTT平台有這件事嗎?是有的那你有同意給他一百億的嗎?不是我同意要經過國發這個基金的那個三段式的審議同意那為什麼他說他跟你講了很興奮講出來?"},{"start":12341.994,"end":12363.48,"text":"那個是因為他已經經過了三段式的審議通過了所以通過了我跟主委請教而且他的法源基礎是來自於文創條例主委請教一下你們現在投資100億做這個平台你的目的是什麼是希望投資賺錢還是有其他的目的他主要是依據文創條例主要是要協助振興這個文化產業所以不是完全以賺錢為目的"},{"start":12365.749,"end":12385.959,"text":"呃,不是以賺錢,國化基金的設立本來就是以創新轉型為主所以,呃,虧損也沒關係嘛,但只要能夠達到創新轉型是這個意思嗎?呃,倒不全然喔,我們還是希望你還是希望能夠有點獲利嘛,對吧?因為畢竟,畢竟這個錢也都是人民納稅錢嘛對的,因為我們,好,那主委,那我就要跟你請教一下齁,因為"},{"start":12386.859,"end":12405.549,"text":"我是覺得為了要讓我們這個影視產業提高外銷比例所以創一個OTT平台實際上是一個蠻奇怪的本末倒置的行為那第一你知道迪士尼Plus在已經其實在台灣這個流量都很慘你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":12406.249,"end":12413.56,"text":"你知道迪士尼Plus它近三年虧損多少嗎?你應該不知道啦,我講給你聽啦2021年虧損16億美金就差不多500億左右,台幣2022年虧損22億2023年虧損15億"},{"start":12421.55,"end":12448.638,"text":"那迪士尼Plus內容投資多少呢?2021年投資了80億美元2022年投資100億美元2023年投資了110億的美元換句話說他投資非常多但實際上他還是屬於虧損的狀態那所以我們今天既然要國家經濟要投資100億去做OTD平台你要準備非常多錢在這個上面啊你覺得國家經濟後面還會有這麼多銀彈可以投資在這個OTD上面嗎?"},{"start":12449.557,"end":12460.119,"text":"我們這次的額度是匡列100億,原則上他會用完我們才有可能再去匡列應該很快就用完了啦,我跟你講按照迪士尼PLUS燒錢的速度應該很快就用完了啦"},{"start":12461.075,"end":12479.406,"text":"那人家一般的平台像Netflix他為什麼可以這個做這麼好不是說他在投資在平台是因為他投資在內容嘛當時的時候投資一個紙牌屋用大數據分析的方式去研究說什麼樣的影片是國際上會喜歡看的所以因為紙牌屋一炮而紅帶動平台的發展"},{"start":12480.026,"end":12494.576,"text":"所以我們如果要用平台去帶動內容發展我覺得蠻奇怪的這就好比說是一個小島它要發展觀光然後說要增加航線不是嘛你到最後去行銷那個飛機的然後跟大家講說這個飛機很棒所以請大家坐飛機過來"},{"start":12495.917,"end":12521.617,"text":"你應該是要行銷你自己的觀光內容嘛就像劉德華這次來開演唱會對你們民進黨罵得那麼慘對不對變成一個什麼舔共藝人還是一堆劉德華的華少們啊劉太太啊很多粉絲都去支持他為什麼因為他內容好嘛所以關鍵在這邊啦因為我 我是建議主委啦齁因為李議員當然我覺得那個文化部長他天馬行空啊他現在變成要做平台"},{"start":12522.751,"end":12546.363,"text":"之外會花很多錢在平台上面所以未來你們要行銷內容也要行銷平台因為我覺得如果說你之後還要再把錢投入在上面的話應該要花錢在行銷內容上面畢竟內容才是有一句話叫內容是王啦在影視產業我不知道你知道這個事情那劉康仁為什麼會離開呢他講了一句話他說因為台灣的素材受限嘛"},{"start":12546.903,"end":12569.218,"text":"因為國發基金很多都投資所謂要台灣價值的影片啊所以題材非常受限啊所以導致於說有很多影迷或是一些劇迷就移開了啊因此我認為啦未來還要投錢你就要往內容發展第二個除非你OTT不是要為了娛樂產業你是要做OTT版的公共電視"},{"start":12570.279,"end":12587.072,"text":"那又是另外一回事我覺得這個你們要確定你們投資方向好的我會跟文化部說明委員的寶貴意見好 謝謝主委請回座好 今天早上最後一位質詢請徐宇貞委員"},{"start":12597.778,"end":12601.101,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請劉主委請國安委劉主委劉主委好,今年4月的時候,行政院主計總處有發布了2021年的家庭財富分配統計,前20%的資產淨值是平均每戶5,133萬"},{"start":12622.813,"end":12645.593,"text":"跟最貧窮的20%的資產77萬差距高達66.9倍那這個結果跟30年前公布的16.8倍相比我國的財富差距有非常擴大的這個趨勢那以近兩年的這個高房價來看的話我們也知道這個差距的數字可能是更大那目前我們看到的我們的中產階級已經變成中產階級"},{"start":12649.154,"end":12678.113,"text":"這個非常悲慘的慘甚至有一些專家學者也提出中產階級其實已經慢慢的在消失當中那面對這個部分就是薪水略漲但物價飆漲的現象請問劉主委國發會面對財富分配惡化的情況有沒有具體的政策跟規劃跟委員報告這個這份報告我們針對這個我們做過更細的去了解這份內容是"},{"start":12678.493,"end":12699.098,"text":"當然主計總處的說法是說他30年前的調查方法跟現在的方法比較不一致很難做一對一的比較因為他現在融入的是大數據的分析但是我分析說明一下他其實這裡所講的中產階級是裡面的第三等份跟第四等份但是我們確定了他的"},{"start":12699.939,"end":12716.656,"text":"的數字都增加了就是說第三等份、第四等份他們的那個所得都有大幅的增加那唯一有一個比較幾乎二、三、四、五都有大幅的增加但是一等份是有減少的現象所以我們現在也針對這個部分你有什麼具體的政策規劃"},{"start":12720.771,"end":12734.621,"text":"我們現在呢就是第一個2345財富都有增加那我們想要針對第一等份財富並沒有增加的這個等份我們希望投入一些社會福利去協助這些這個族群"},{"start":12736.222,"end":12754.555,"text":"但投入社會福利要投入多少才能夠解決?而且我們今天講的是青年的低薪的問題那根據民進黨執政這8年來將調升基本工資視為改善低薪的一個重要的政策那勞動部也在112年5月21號表示"},{"start":12758.157,"end":12782.816,"text":"勞動部是要落實這個蔡總統支持青年就業的這個政策也會保障出入職場的青年勞工的薪資的權益但是根據勞動部的統計每四名大學畢業生中就一個人是出入職場就起薪只有領基本工資表示說這個政策並沒有辦法改善青年的薪資結構所以說針對這個部分我們在經濟發展委員會的第一次的顧問會議就指出只調整"},{"start":12783.516,"end":12807.665,"text":"最低工資沒有辦法解決臺灣普遍薪資的問題請問劉主委你認為最低薪資應該要多少?我們勞動部的何部長說3萬億那你覺得合理的期金多少?他的3萬億是用OECD的標準但是我們現在其實第一個我們有做了幾件事情第一個是政府的採購我們現在是會要求要高於這個數字那第二個事情就是說這是您報告提的嗎?是嗎?您報告裡面寫的是嗎?"},{"start":12811.166,"end":12827.501,"text":"對,那第二個部分其實我們現在一樣我們找經管會第一個我們會公告出這個薪資的比較,產業薪資比較第二個在新的IPO要申請上市的公司我們要求到最低公司的1.3倍是遠超過目前這個3萬億的數字那另外一個"},{"start":12831.064,"end":12852.65,"text":"另外我們也會把這些薪資都列入他們的公司評鑑裡面我們希望給你比較大的壓力尤其是中小企業來說的話他如果沒有辦法他的業績就不好你只要加薪他就沒辦法做到所以希望我們這個政策"},{"start":12855.771,"end":12882.491,"text":"對,還是要具體的落實,不要只是空談沒錯,我們就是投入110多億,我們這次是以面為主那希望下一次再請教國家發展委員會主委的時候能夠有一個好的一個具體的政策,好嗎?好的謝謝好,謝謝許委員好,先諸位請回座報案會現在休息,下午兩點半繼續開會"},{"start":12902.14,"end":12904.842,"text":"對教育部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":18416.254,"end":18417.346,"text":"並備質詢。"},{"start":18476.817,"end":18477.295,"text":"並備質詢。"},{"start":20679.991,"end":20680.859,"text":"及其他職業部長及其他職業部長及其他職業部長及其他職業"},{"start":21552.808,"end":21571.864,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會。黃國昌、黃國昌、黃國昌、黃國昌不在?下一位諮詢委員請戴世保委員。謝謝主席及各位親信。有請國發會的劉主委及經濟部的郭部長兩位掌聲請。"},{"start":21577.594,"end":21596.645,"text":"先請教劉主委啦齁這個如你所願啦川普應該會贏的美國大選喔你說對台商是大利多喔你這個講利多是到底是有沒有根據啊根據什麼根據你的guts feeling就是你直覺還是根據哪些報告有沒有"},{"start":21597.708,"end":21603.751,"text":"我跟委員報告他對中國企業徵收60%的稅對台灣的增加10%的稅對,我們相差50%的稅那我們最近企業被中國內捲殺到那他的徵稅有助於我們翻轉第二個部分國部長來,國部長國部長,電子業,你是電子業出身的電子業的平均毛利多少"},{"start":21628.001,"end":21636.713,"text":"要看哪一個業啊?你的行業!電子業這麼長!你的行業!你的行業!YOU!YOU!YOU!你的!你的!你的!你以前的!從業!從業!從業!從業!半導體!我從業是8%嘛!"},{"start":21643.923,"end":21643.983,"text":"主席"},{"start":21662.168,"end":21676.497,"text":"你同意嗎?他說對川普當選現在已經差不多當選了是對台商是大利多嗎?來來來你同意不同意我問你你同意不同意?你同意不同意?我完全同意我完全同意喔再一個多一個川普吶吼"},{"start":21677.838,"end":21680.659,"text":"這個我是不懂這個邏輯怎麼了你賺8%給人家課10%你很高興我請問你委員我賺8%跟課10%完全沒有關係那個是在我進到美國的市場他課10%是美國的客戶買他會加10%來跟我買但是我賺的8%是沒有少我們多半是FOB來這個部長經濟部長"},{"start":21706.714,"end":21735.92,"text":"這是你,你看我看過在立法院這麼多年了企業界出身的部長我發現Renky是非常後面的你大概只有英中才一你比那個第一任的企業界出來的林新立啊差有過多他的數字啊問什麼都清天楚楚你問什麼你都不清楚比如我,我來問你一個啊台電有沒有股票上市?蛤?台電有沒有股票上市?沒有啊蛤?沒有啊以前有沒有?"},{"start":21736.977,"end":21737.238,"text":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":21748.592,"end":21778.592,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":21779.353,"end":21802.571,"text":"五千八百億喔!再加一千就六千八百億喔!是啊!民股的股權又再稀釋的!原來四點多變三點多現在可能第三喔!部長啊!怎麼辦?民股怎麼辦?報告委員那個稀釋民股啊!也要這個就如果我不是真知就不是稀釋民股啊!"},{"start":21803.26,"end":21804.841,"text":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":21826.65,"end":21833.392,"text":"菲律賓他會蓋很多大的光電廠你都不知道啊你講光電光電你剛才委員就吐泥就已經在2.6%再一點點他要蓋個大電廠我們海底電線要1500億蓋個電廠1000億這個叫隨便長講啊部長還是隨便講講部長你的評價很低啦這個部長啊謝謝謝謝賴事長委員來部長請回座"},{"start":21857.58,"end":21868.877,"text":"下一位質詢請陳冠廷委員您好,我們請部長請郭部長"},{"start":21874.252,"end":21903.112,"text":"委員好部長好部長今年9月我們對美國的出口是87.8億美元是歷年來同月最佳那累積1到9月的美國出口是842億增加300多億美元那這個年成長率不斷的在越來越好某種程度是對台灣的出口是肯定的可是在美台貿易美方這個對大幅的赤字早在拜登的時期就有一些"},{"start":21904.053,"end":21905.453,"text":"我想我們臺灣跟美國的貿易都有一些深厚的基礎"},{"start":21933.462,"end":21947.292,"text":"那麼不會因為這個總統候選人哪一位上去就會有一個重大的改變這個是最基本的所以我們認為不管是哪一位候選人他今天出現"},{"start":21948.632,"end":21971.568,"text":"然後會去執行一個天翻地覆的這個政策我想應該是不會啦這個過去的經驗告訴我們部長我擔心確實是不同的總統候選人他確實會有天翻地覆的改變是有的特別是這幾年的變化那擔心不代表說一定會發生就算是"},{"start":21972.881,"end":21998.56,"text":"不管是誰當選他的經濟政策我們都要有一定的對應的方式所以我是想說如果說對於出口上面我國對美國的出口是不斷的增加的同時有沒有可能在國防的這個採購上面或者是經濟跟國防跟科技共同在同一個overlap的地方重疊的部分我們必須要有一個說法讓美國知道說我們對他們的擔憂是有正面的看法就是說"},{"start":21998.92,"end":22024.689,"text":"我們不會因此而說那我們就不增加出口這個果實我們就不要當然還是要只是說我們要怎麼樣frame這樣子的說法確保台灣跟美國的利益同時達到就是不是只有我們台灣本身的利益因為雙方的貿易雙方都得利益也不是說我們出操或者是人家入操就是不好或好所以這個說法部長有沒有想說未來如果遇到這樣子的比如說我現在的質詢你會怎麼樣來去回應"},{"start":22027.394,"end":22050.58,"text":"我們對於未來的各種變化其實都有一些模擬都有一些scenario所以我認為這個部分是因為屬於國家安全的部分所以我們大概也只能在某一個限制之下來跟委員做報告好 謝謝部長那再來有一個就是跟今天的主題比較有關就是跟經濟的果實"},{"start":22051.92,"end":22077.419,"text":"那經濟的果實在主計處在全體受僱人員總薪資的高低足以排序現在中位數是50.6萬可是如果我們從圖表來看的話在左右兩側完全不同的分布左側當然是比較明顯且集中這代表說大概是813萬的半數受僱者是低於此數那我們是想請教在勞動人口比例比較多沒有享受到這個經濟的果實"},{"start":22078.82,"end":22104.444,"text":"是不是有可能來學習說一些我們臺灣很多重要的產業我們要說半導體的產業也好那他們都會有包含員工的配股、員工的購股的補助我們有辦法用政策,比方說用政策的獎勵讓這一個施放股權給基層員工可以用扣低銀索稅等等的方式來去做出這個讓員工跟企業的成長利害一致的做法不知道部長有沒有什麼樣的建議跟看法"},{"start":22105.264,"end":22127.121,"text":"報告委員,我想您所指導的這幾個部分,事實上我們在院內都有在持續的討論,都有持續在討論中。所以這個方向是有可能的。方向是非常正確的。好,謝謝部長。謝謝委員。好,謝謝陳冠廷委員。來,部長請回座。林淳雲,林淳雲,林淳雲不在。謝惠之雲,請扭曲廷委員。"},{"start":22133.184,"end":22160.082,"text":"謝主席、經濟部長有請請郭部長委員好部長你常常心直口快但我還是要提醒你川普現在基本上已經定牌了很可能要領先不過剛剛兩位委員的答詢裡面前面一講說川普要課60%針對中國大陸的關稅然後你們說這對台灣來講是一個大利多你是國發會主委講的然後剛剛回答陳冠廷委員答詢你你又講政策不會有大規模的改變那到底是會改變還是不會改變我們"},{"start":22162.615,"end":22177.179,"text":"會改變跟不會改變我們都有做scenario我是建議你未來在答詢的時候要謹言慎行不要到最後又變草率發言好不好但這不是今天要問的重點今天要討論的題目叫做這個青年低薪的這個問題這是個老問題我就從部長過去的經驗來出發來跟你探討一下這部長過去在從業服務的時候"},{"start":22182.681,"end":22201.261,"text":"在帶領從業集團的時候有沒有響應當初政府每次我們要談論青年低薪的問題有的時候是一些減稅的利多有一些是溫情的喊話有一些是政策的指示不管怎麼樣過去您在擔任董事長前有沒有響應過政府這樣的措施然後幫你這個集團裡面的年輕人加薪"},{"start":22202.731,"end":22226.879,"text":"我是幫年輕人加薪是一定有啦但是不一定響應政府的措施不一定響應政府的措施你這樣讓部長這個接下來的這個任你有多大的把握就是我們的國家能夠有效的導引各樣的企業去帶動年輕人薪水的成長我們大概基本上是透過兩個方向第一個就是幫他轉型走向這個高值化的這個產業"},{"start":22228.567,"end":22254.643,"text":"那麼第二個呢是透過現有的政府的機制一個就是數位化一個就低碳化那麼來輔導他們你講到碳這件事情本席其實就非常有感因為我稍微查了一下從業集團過去你們在這個配合政府配合最多的地方其實是全面配合這個相關的一個減碳的一個措施對不對這一點當然是值得肯定但是當初你在配合政府這樣的一個政策去做了這樣子的努力的時候是不是有給企業帶來額外的成本"},{"start":22255.987,"end":22278.838,"text":"我想這個本來企業轉型就需要一些成本那我以前的公司還能夠承擔這樣的成本我想委員大概關心的就是說有沒有這個企業的政策能夠讓得到員工所有大家的支持本期要跟你講的狀況是你現在來要面對這個未來我們之前也在這個地方也討論過比如說這個碳費、碳稅等等"},{"start":22279.658,"end":22295.056,"text":"這樣子的一些機制其實都在在的會增加企業的成本那本縣擔心的是企業要面對這麼多新的挑戰的同時他其實光是應付這些新的挑戰他就窮於應付、疲於奔命當然就沒有所謂的餘裕可以再來提升勞工的勞動待遇"},{"start":22297.418,"end":22324.19,"text":"政府的很多政策利益都很好但是當企業要配合的時候他就擔負成本這本席在這個地方要表達我們的立場就是說我希望未來的經濟部跟整個行政院的團隊可以導引的其實是政府有些政策可以幫企業節省成本過去我們在總諮詢對答的時候你有講綠電未來增加高額成本要由企業來負擔我是不知道為什麼台電董事長後來又講說可能要調漲民生電價看來又是草率發言但本席其實那時候要提這個概念其實是這樣"},{"start":22324.93,"end":22348.127,"text":"其實你政府的能源政策如果可以有效的降低企業的成本做合理的轉型的時候做合理的修正跟調整的時候你應該是協助企業降低這一部分的成本嘛當你協助他降低這一部分的成本的時候讓他省下來的錢其實讓他去照顧勞工這樣是不是企業也不輸勞工可以贏可是我們目前現在政府的方向顯然經過了幾次的總諮詢之後看起來還是沒有一個像樣的總檢討"},{"start":22349.008,"end":22364.794,"text":"我是希望還可以很快看到有一定的成果把企業這個相關能源的成本政府可以協助可以支持可以把成本降下來相關來講你就刻以企業更多的責任過去我們談企業加薪常常不是小之以理就是動之以情喝咖啡喝半天也不一定有人響應阿"},{"start":22365.894,"end":22388.106,"text":"如果沒有辦法透過政策的導引讓企業在利潤的分配上可以更加合理的話那恐怕經濟部也好、國發會也好到最後也是只有喝咖啡的功能本席不希望這樣部長你對這件事你有沒有什麼具體的做法我們對這個委員你的這個指導非常的重視啦我們也朝這個方向正在進行所以我們在未來形成的新的這個政策的話"},{"start":22388.866,"end":22413.579,"text":"一定就是獎勵企業那由提升企業的競爭力讓企業高值化、低成本化然後把得到的這些利益回饋給員工部長你今天這個政策就當成你的軍令狀這是你的目標啦我們當然還有一些時間時間會給大家證明希望確實能夠如部長所說重點還是要能夠帶動年輕人的加薪解決低薪問題可以嗎是的好謝謝謝謝好謝謝牛協定委員來部長請回座"},{"start":22419.825,"end":22421.365,"text":"登記發言人除不在場者之外,區域均發言完畢。訊號結束。"},{"start":22443.206,"end":22456.382,"text":"由委員羅志祥、劉雪婷、王宏威所提出兵資料列入紀錄,刊登報告。出兵執行及未達部分請將會在一週內以順便討論並赴日本會。本日議程處理完畢,現在散會。"},{"start":22466.773,"end":22470.557,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準。"},{"start":22496.641,"end":22498.787,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":22505.165,"end":22507.466,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":22534.735,"end":22537.157,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":22550.382,"end":22551.263,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":22580.132,"end":22580.973,"text":"這個都錄進去了 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退場潮"},{"start":1807.945,"end":1816.749,"text":"這影響了學生的授教權和教師的工作權所以當中錯綜複雜很多的問題我們必須來討論尤其這當中對於我們即職學校衝擊是非常大的因為從我們在過去停招的學校當中我們可以看得到有大概87%左右是即職的學校也就是高達13所學校那麼教育部自己的統計尤其是在這近五年我們高職的學生也是"},{"start":1834.215,"end":1856.372,"text":"逐年下降,而且這個數字其實越來越可怕那私校公會呢,我們看到也有一些預估的數字出來包括三年內可能有40到50所的實力這個技職高校跟科大可能會準備退場我想這些數據都是有經過大概初算跟一個有所本的概略"},{"start":1856.752,"end":1856.772,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":1872.166,"end":1898.602,"text":"這個私校退場為了要拯救少子化帶來的這個少學生的一個狀態那行政院在今年的5月也提出了這個私校法第62條的修法那這個修法呢大家也非常的重視那這個原來是要鼓勵個人跟一例事業捐助私立學校興學那可是呢我各方還有不同的意見雖然這個私校法第62條很多的委員有版本那麼行政院自己有提出版本"},{"start":1899.142,"end":1900.683,"text":"教育部推出了國際產業人才教育專班以企業需求為導向,順序擴大吸引新南向學生"},{"start":1923.814,"end":1938.079,"text":"教育部在5月提出了新型五專的三加二 這裡面也有一些執行方式跟方法 但是這個方案一出來以後大概各界也有不同的看法"},{"start":1938.479,"end":1939.299,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":1961.866,"end":1962.266,"text":"大專院校公私病"},{"start":1985.151,"end":1985.171,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2002.174,"end":2012.744,"text":"私立大學遵循的是一句私立學號法而且如果今天要合併產生的問題其實非常多不管是董事的捐贈、學校法人的財產移轉、董事會議院、職員工身份的轉換等等我想問題不少"},{"start":2017.768,"end":2018.409,"text":"為了避免技職人才的流失,健全技職教育的發展"},{"start":2038.824,"end":2063.049,"text":"教育部推動新型五專三加二的模式這是一個最新的政策出來但是能不能夠有效的來協助既專學校來拓展聲援那學生了不了解這個是一個第一個那第二個部分呢我們為了要開拓學校的一個聲援還有招攬外國優秀的學生那教育部來辦這個新型專班但是要怎麼去防範避免學校淪為現在大家口中的"},{"start":2065.509,"end":2065.529,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2088.746,"end":2089.366,"text":"私校停辦潮"},{"start":2117.472,"end":2118.132,"text":"全國教育產業總工會理事長 林碩傑理事長"},{"start":2140.504,"end":2168.655,"text":"我們歡迎您第二位是我們年輕代表學生代表臺灣EDU教育協會李瑞林理事長第三位是我們全國教師公會總聯合會政策部的副主任吳張文副主任第四位是我們南台科技大學我們張宏德副教授第五位是晉一大學監察人陳正貴監察人"},{"start":2170.424,"end":2199.275,"text":"第6位是大同大學何明果校長第7位是桃園市家長會長協會榮譽理事長呂朝福理事長第8位是昭陽科技大學鍾任勤教授第9位是全國教師公會總聯合會洪俊良理事長第10位是聖約翰科技大學唐艷博校長"},{"start":2202.227,"end":2202.907,"text":"教育部政務次長葉秉成"},{"start":2218.59,"end":2224.894,"text":"教育部技術及職業教育司﹑楊育惠司長楊子惠﹑謝麗君高教師﹑廖高賢國教署﹑黃靜儀組長負稅署﹑葉惠娟組長"},{"start":2245.708,"end":2251.052,"text":"國有產產署 林秀玲副組長副遂署 周凱璇基和勞動部 勞動力發展署 沈文力組長經濟部 產業發展署 張文裕副組長國發會人力發展處 檢任秘書 張雅玲"},{"start":2272.81,"end":2274.492,"text":"臺灣高等教育產業工會 翟靜怡副理事長"},{"start":2291.069,"end":2317.604,"text":"我跟各位報告那為了要讓大家今天都可以非常順利的來表達您的意見那今天我們做如下的處理我們每一位貴賓我們發言的時間為7分鐘那我們在第6分鐘的時候我們會按鈴來提醒那7分鐘結束的時候就會有一個結束的鈴聲讓大家先知道一下那我們專家學者的發言是以剛才我們簽名的先後順序為準那現場的發言跟書名的資料"},{"start":2320.525,"end":2348.228,"text":"立法院會做成紀錄刊登公報在場委員 因為今天已經有委員登記了待會我們在10點之前如果要發表意見在10點之前我們要來登記待會我們會在這個會議當中來穿插委員來表達他的意見穿插的順序會以在場委員登記發言順序為主現在我想我們首先先有請教育部的葉次長"},{"start":2349.571,"end":2353.449,"text":"我們就現在的狀況來提出說明說明的時間是5分鐘"},{"start":2360.743,"end":2384.471,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好今天本人應邀就這個教育委員會召開這個少子女化加劇私校退場如何挽救?公聽會聆聽各位先進的意見自感榮幸以下就本部相關措施提出報告敬請各位委員及先進指教與支持為了協助私立學校辦學本部推動"},{"start":2385.131,"end":2408.919,"text":"多項擴大聲援政策以下請就新武專計畫還有這個國際產業人才教育專班還有私校法62條以及公私立大學的這個整合資源的幾個議題來說明我想首先我們來談的是技術高中技術型高中科大這個合作3加2這個新武專的這個模式專班我想這個是因應技職的學生這個逐年減少"},{"start":2409.599,"end":2409.619,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2429.125,"end":2444.717,"text":"高中傾斜普高的學生比技高還要多這個時候我們要怎麼樣幫助科大特別是私立科大我們要提醒科大一件事情當技高學生沒有收好的話"},{"start":2445.177,"end":2471.745,"text":"科大未來在5年後他也很難收好所以這個一個非常重要的一件事情就是說從教育部的角度來講我們要做一個更長遠的來解這個問題的話我們必須讓技高跟科大形成命運共同體特別是我們現在看到說當技高要說服國中生這樣的時候沒有那麼容易因為技高的老師對於現在科大還有在整個產業的發展他並沒有到能夠跟得那麼緊"},{"start":2473.345,"end":2496.07,"text":"當新五專把技高跟科大變命運共同體的時候這個時候在跟國中家長說服說你要不要來記職的時候這個其實是科大跟技高一起當科大跟技高一起的時候這個說服力就更大了所以這個新五專模式專班他的一個非常重要的政策精神就是希望讓"},{"start":2496.81,"end":2496.83,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2521.809,"end":2536.634,"text":"這個專注於這個把技術學得更好所以當我們做這新3加2的新5專的模式的時候孩子就能夠很專注的這5年的時間不會被升學這些考試干擾他可以技術可以學得更好"},{"start":2537.234,"end":2552.005,"text":"這對於科大未來要收更有能力的學生其實也是有幫助那另外呢這個新五三加二模式我們也要提為了要讓家長們更願意這個讓孩子來念記職這個三加二是一個非常有彈性的模式就是"},{"start":2552.605,"end":2552.625,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2570.177,"end":2570.577,"text":"三加二新武專模式"},{"start":2601.319,"end":2602.26,"text":"新型專班委員關心新型專班"},{"start":2616.34,"end":2616.44,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2631.827,"end":2659.482,"text":"全世界大概QS排名在前800名的這樣的學校名單的學生他才能夠來申請那這些學校其實都是我舉個例子QS800名大概是在我們在台灣來講也是在私立大學裡面是像私立大學如果以東吳為例的話大概1000名左右所以這些學生都是quality非常好的學生那另外又說怎麼樣讓這個計畫可以更成功我們在新政府上任之後我們也跟經濟部做了很多的討論那目前"},{"start":2660.66,"end":2685.118,"text":"跟經濟部的這個新的模式就是說除了是業者跟這個大學的媒合之外另外我們也是會通過經濟部更有效的跟找這個優質的公司來一起來合作所以剛才提到說會不會有這些比較差的公司這種公司其實它進不來那剛剛第三樣我們提到就是私校法的62條的這個修法"},{"start":2687.179,"end":2688.96,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":2703.829,"end":2728.139,"text":"捐款者大額捐款的意願緩解私校辦校經營的財務壓力但是我們也教育部也認為說這個捐款的使用怎麼更透明化怎麼樣能夠確保他是真的用在教學上面學生上面而不是這個用在其他的用途我們想這件事情也是我們非常重視的所以這個修法我們也期待說他會有一些配套說是讓這個捐款能夠更被透明化的檢視"},{"start":2729.199,"end":2755.171,"text":"最後剛才提到公私病的議題陳儒剛才主席所說的目前尚無公私立大學合併的法源那這個近期推動這個臺科大跟華夏科大的整併他其實是華夏科大醫師校法完成停辦後把校產捐給臺科大那由於公私立大學在法律地位人事財務制度的差異要推動公私病還有很多的挑戰而且涉及跨部門的協調"},{"start":2756.852,"end":2775.631,"text":"本部將持續鼓勵公私立大學先以合作整合資源開始並關注臺科大跟華校科大整病的效益來作為未來公私整病的參考我想最後感謝與會各位委員及專家學者關注高等教育發展議題面對內外部環境的迅速變化"},{"start":2776.252,"end":2792.334,"text":"本部將虛心聆聽各位委員：各界民間團體：專家寫者及學校的建議我們希望能夠一起來協助大專院校解決問題確保辦學品質和永續發展並作為本部未來相關政策評估推動之參考謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":2796.565,"end":2796.585,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":2817.985,"end":2841.782,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好今天貴委員會舉辦少子女化加劇私立學校退場如何挽救的公聽會本部呈要列席緊究私立學校法第62條的修正草案檢要說明為了橫貧公私立學校捐贈的租稅待遇提高個人或營業大額捐款的意願教育部會同本部於今年"},{"start":2843.713,"end":2843.733,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2863.832,"end":2865.993,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員：完整會議"},{"start":2894.354,"end":2894.394,"text":"林秀潔議員"},{"start":2923.38,"end":2939.677,"text":"主席、委員、各位先進大家好有關今天這個文化教育文化委員會這個有關少子女化加劇私校退場這個議題那我們全教廠有一些意見表達如下"},{"start":2941.699,"end":2956.667,"text":"教育部提出的新武專,我們也發現原來舊的武專,他們的課程在五年之內的整體規劃,而且是在相同校區裡面,無縫接軌,學習專業技能。"},{"start":2963.387,"end":2963.887,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":2980.792,"end":3004.71,"text":"我們是覺得說這種架構跟原有的高職畢業生升學到二專的架構並沒有太大的差異所以他的學習成效跟他的流暢或貫通我們覺得可能還要有待考驗這個部分是因為還沒有實現所以這個部分還有待觀察"},{"start":3007.019,"end":3024.346,"text":"新武專是標榜說要減輕高職生的升學壓力也幫助高職的招生而且這裡面強調高職跟科大來合作、共享資源尤其是創造一條職生的管道"},{"start":3025.775,"end":3052.881,"text":"這個部分我們特別要跟大家報告一下就是說要值得跟大家講的就是說其實現在有關高職跟科大的合作尤其是在私資方面的共享資源其實現在就已經在發生了現在就已經是現在進行式了因為我們有發現有部分的私立高職那他們為了要節省這個薪資的支出他們用盡各種的方法"},{"start":3053.854,"end":3054.835,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3070.336,"end":3089.487,"text":"那原來他剩下的這個課怎麼辦呢我們發現這些私立高職他就與這個私立科大合作那透過種種名義讓私立科大的人員入校上課那甚至造成高職他原先正式合格教室的比率低於該有的標準可是地方政府當作沒有事當作沒看到這是令人覺得很訝異的"},{"start":3099.758,"end":3114.91,"text":"未來如果這種做法不受控的話我們認為說嚴重影響這些高職教師的權益而且對於學生的學習我們也無法保證說他們不會受影響如果是這樣繼續下去的"},{"start":3118.478,"end":3123.439,"text":"新五專,如果實施下去大受歡迎,家長會棄舊五專而去讀高職"},{"start":3138.596,"end":3162.092,"text":"整個學生流動分配的版圖有可能會受影響但有人說現在舊五專大部分是偏醫護可是還是有其他的版圖那如果是這樣的話我們發現就是說舊五專老師的工作權是有可能會受影響的那教育部不可不慎以上我們是針對教師的工作權部分來特別來強調"},{"start":3164.488,"end":3185.273,"text":"有關所謂的開拓生源及流產也就是新型專班的部分我們也發現就是說其實從新南向產學合作國際專班、產學攜手合作僑生專班甚至現在的新型專班對科大而言最大的誘因就是補助款幾十萬幾十萬的補助款就這樣"},{"start":3186.738,"end":3186.758,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3198.188,"end":3210.536,"text":"如果說把這些投入來增加新生兒的出生率的政策我們認為是比較長遠有意義因為今天是要來針對少子女化加劇私校退場的議題來公聽我們是認為說少子女化應該優先來解決"},{"start":3219.639,"end":3246.194,"text":"最後就是有關私校法62條的修正我們發現這個行政院版跟至少有7份委員的提案都一面倒支持私校法62條就是捐款改成百分之百抵扣那私校要求私校法62條比照公立學校捐贈可全數作為所得稅的利舉扣折或是費用損失"},{"start":3248.61,"end":3270.541,"text":"這個部分我們是認為說一旦通過的話如果他是善良的他的出發點如果是善良的我們就稱為姑且稱為善良捐款那可能會排擠國立學校公立學校的捐款甚至對於慈善機構的捐款會有所影響但是如果是另有所圖呢"},{"start":3272.069,"end":3272.529,"text":"政府回應期待,放寬抵稅額"},{"start":3289.67,"end":3316.985,"text":"改為所謂的全數可以抵稅的話那卻有可能剛剛好成為這個交叉持股的私校董事們的避稅天堂那這個部分我們覺得可能要慎思教育部強調說他會有監管的說法可是我們發現以往有一些私立高中職的天價的小校舍跟貴而無用之地的教學設備機器"},{"start":3319.458,"end":3345.067,"text":"來耗盡了校務基金或者是任用私人已經讓許多老師失去信心所以這個部分的捐款我們覺得要慎思如果說這樣通過了全教廠主張私校的人事會計也比照公校全部都改為公派輪調比照公校的方式辦理來維護私生的權益以上 謝謝"},{"start":3349.892,"end":3350.673,"text":"臺灣EDU教育協會理事長李瑞琳"},{"start":3364.821,"end":3383.759,"text":"好 主席各位與會的委員各位先進大家好那今天希望能夠帶給大家的其實是從學生使用者的角度去思考然後去展望臺灣的即職教育不過在開始之前我想要藉這個機會特別感謝就是林盈菁委員在這個關係文書針對私校法第39條的修正草案的這個修正然後表達強烈的支持"},{"start":3388.664,"end":3409.45,"text":"其實透過私立學校過度的招生競爭跟不合理的考試篩選去做這樣的一個限制其實可以遏止家長在小學就進行軍備競賽促進學生的身心健康發展把笑容還給學生那回到今天我們所要談到的即職教育我想一個很重要的概念"},{"start":3412.732,"end":3427.945,"text":"社會之所以可以前進,其實最仰賴的是各行各業的中堅力量。他們努力地去撐起台灣這塊土地,帶領台灣前行。而既職教育其實就是培養這些關鍵人才的搖籃,為台灣帶來動力。"},{"start":3430.447,"end":3456.439,"text":"但其實現在臺灣的即職教育 面臨非常多的挑戰那我想第一個重點是 現在的即職教育 面臨的學術化 高中化的現象我們曾經接獲學生的陳情表示學校為了要升學榜單 會將實習 或者是液體課程私自改為統策專業科目的課程自習 或者是加深加廣課程那再來其實高職的學分其實是繁重的 比起高中降至150學分的門檻"},{"start":3458.3,"end":3475.604,"text":"高職生在108課綱後畢業門檻反而調升了學生在專業也就是學術以及實作之間沒有辦法進行兼顧那他們必須要在這兩者之間做出抉擇蠟燭兩頭燒有的學生為了升學他必須要放棄專業的實習那有的可能會因為實作課程繁重他沒有辦法投入足夠的時間在學科考試上面"},{"start":3487.488,"end":3512.617,"text":"學習歷程檔案直接從高中乾坤大挪移到高職並且作為選材的工具沒有考量到技高學生他學習的重點其實偏向實作的技能培養而且學生的學習成果其實通常都在高三一二年級很難去累積他有意義的內容那跟學習歷程檔案這個制度本身的設計就不太相符沒有辦法引起學生的製作意願也讓學生感到不知所措"},{"start":3513.637,"end":3538.094,"text":"此外現在科大開放的高中生學測名額其實是很奇怪的而高中生他其實不具備像高職生這樣的專業能力造成科大他可能會為了要配合高中生而去調整課程設計擠壓了高職生的入學管道這也是一種治標不治本回應技術人才不足的方式教育部應該要重新盤點這些現象回歸技高的本質"},{"start":3543.217,"end":3543.401,"text":"主席"},{"start":3544.386,"end":3544.426,"text":"考招與產業脫節問題"},{"start":3574.506,"end":3597.416,"text":"他比較關心的反而是他有沒有辦法實際操作這些的能力那其實還有很多學校把這個考取證照跟畢業門檻進行掛鉤那有些學生為了要抵免學分他還去考取跟自己專業無關的證照那在這件事情上面我們認為教育部跟勞動部應該要儘速去執行跨部會的合作去通盤檢討證照的實用性確保它符合產業的需求"},{"start":3601.791,"end":3617.277,"text":"第三個部分是針對教育部目前提出的這個3加2的解方那這種前三年在高職後兩年在武專或是科大這種二級部的安排我們認為在文憑主義的盛行下可能會想要讓實用的人其實是沒有那麼多性質缺缺"},{"start":3618.457,"end":3623.863,"text":"所以說其實我們更去同意就是可能過去不少團體或者是校長們其實所倡議的這個3加2加2或許會比3加2來得更好那我們其實有留意到目前有一些群科可能像是商科啊它並沒有3加2可以使用或者是3加2對他們的這個注意其實沒有到那麼大"},{"start":3638.94,"end":3646.371,"text":"所以在接軌產業上面或許更簡單的方式是創造誘因鼓勵更多的業師去進入學校企業開設在校的實習工廠引入業界的實務經驗減少學用落差"},{"start":3654.073,"end":3679.87,"text":"綜合來說在全球化的背景之下補足臺灣的產業競爭需要大量的技術人才少子化的趨勢不可以逆轉而技職教育正是解決這個問題的關鍵而我們也必須要讓學生在國中的階段分流高中跟高職的時候能夠做好生涯探索對自己的人生的未來有選擇權"},{"start":3681.772,"end":3696.605,"text":"好那我想最後一分鐘的時間我其實想要講到一個非常重要的重點也就是現在其實教育部常常提到這個AI教育創新新思維阿對於多數的技職其實也就是台灣一半的學生是根本沒有幫助的"},{"start":3697.305,"end":3709.552,"text":"去創建非常多所謂的這種business model純然用這種企業、新創思維去看待教育更不可能去解決城鄉差距、社會資本、經濟資本、文化資本這些落差等等的結構性問題"},{"start":3713.414,"end":3727.73,"text":"所以教育公共化這個概念如果作為這一次公聽會的核心那也就表示教育作為公共善治這個角色去看待社會的中間力量其實是一個朝野共識"},{"start":3728.931,"end":3741.105,"text":"如果我們相信 如果我們在乎即職教育我想政府要做的第一件事情也就是最重要的事情應該要是彎下腰去聆聽第一線學生家長跟老師的心聲"},{"start":3743.928,"end":3744.028,"text":"以上,謝謝"},{"start":3776.908,"end":3777.269,"text":"范芸委員"},{"start":3787.267,"end":3787.787,"text":"教師公會 教師代表 家長代表 校長 私校協會"},{"start":3806.721,"end":3807.081,"text":"《立法院第11屆第2會議》"},{"start":3832.145,"end":3849.12,"text":"學術型跟技職型的大學資源分配的方式真的可以重新思考那高教師其實可以去思考一下過去用這個一刀切經費一刀切的方式那其實對技職型的學校來講的話就真的資源非常的有限"},{"start":3849.52,"end":3849.54,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3867.148,"end":3888.58,"text":"高跟就是既執行的高中跟大學之間能不能更整合或者直升其實已經有部分的學校有做到這樣那能不能夠鼓勵我想能夠讓我們的年輕人在職涯的規劃下可以更完整不會面臨到再一次的考試跟他原來的既職的教育的想像是不一樣的"},{"start":3890.02,"end":3896.684,"text":"以上是我對計職這個議題的看法再來以下的發言就針對私校的議題賴清德總統的政見已經對高校的地圖做了很大的改變我們現場的校長跟老師們應該都會知道公私校的學費差距現在已經不是高中生他要選哪一所大學的一個關鍵反而是一個私校的品質"},{"start":3918.917,"end":3922.84,"text":"競爭力不夠的公立大學現在面臨很大的壓力學生可能會選一個他覺得更有競爭力的私立大學的學系這個關鍵性的改變也讓我們會去思考再來私校的品質才是關鍵"},{"start":3938.49,"end":3956.983,"text":"學生選擇私校與否：考慮的已經不是學費了：而是他的未來：還有這個學校的品質談到品質問題我也要講我過去是在公立大學教書進入立法院之後才開始瞭解私立大學有非常非常多的問題當然我們在場很多校長不好意思這邊也點到聖約翰因為那個陳情安是我"},{"start":3963.308,"end":3963.328,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3979.691,"end":3989.159,"text":"的私立大學：譬如說我協助過的中州科大的學功案就是把國際學生當作奴工了都上了國際新聞還有聖約翰環球科大欠老師薪水的部分這些亂象"},{"start":3995.024,"end":4014.593,"text":"其實都會影響學生在選擇私立大學的時候會有這個擔憂喔那最近呢又傳出喬生專班的學生被學校沒收護照這個教育部真的喔因為當時潘部長就承諾我說會好好的來管這些事喔可是我們居然還有學生被學校沒收護照"},{"start":4016.074,"end":4039.194,"text":"實習跟移工他到底是個實習生還是一個國際移工界線模糊我想教育部在監管這些情況下的檢核機制不知道是沒有落實還是太放寬那讓私立大學為了要爭取國際學生那他甚至我們要講就是不擇手段"},{"start":4039.614,"end":4039.634,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4055.645,"end":4056.445,"text":"民脂民膏稅收補助"},{"start":4079.737,"end":4080.037,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":4110.078,"end":4110.378,"text":"《私校的財務》"},{"start":4129.977,"end":4146.085,"text":"最後因為時間的緣故只剩一分多我想我們的目標就還是高教公共化就如同今天的一個提綱之一因為我們的私立大學已經拿到了學費補助那教育部也不斷的給支持"},{"start":4148.106,"end":4148.126,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4169.046,"end":4189.246,"text":"私校法其實對私校的財產各方面施生權益的保障都不如我們的退場條例這是一個已經出現的一個漏洞我想我們之前在看到相關的新聞跟接到相關的陳情的時候就非常的遺憾就是我們整體高校公共化的目標並沒有真的完成"},{"start":4192.589,"end":4214.924,"text":"如何一起努力在高校公共化的目標下一方面鼓勵部分優質的私校讓他有更好的支持也讓他願意主動就是財務公開透明然後有更好的特色然後檢討目前的退場規定比如說我剛要講的就是大漢技術學院自行提出退場"},{"start":4215.764,"end":4229.466,"text":"施生權益沒有辦法得到進入所謂的預警加護病房的私校退場條例後的保障我想這個是教育部我想我們次長在這主管技術學院的技術高教師等都在那應該要好好的主動去規劃的我們不能夠等到大量的施生權益不保走上街頭之後我們才頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":4243.809,"end":4244.23,"text":"洪孟楷委員"},{"start":4267.185,"end":4291.805,"text":"主席各位在場先進大家早安大家好感謝主席針對少子女化加劇私校退場如何挽救來召開公聽會但我必須要說如果說我們現在的政府也好或者是我們所有的這個其實最主要還是政府的責任啦如果說政府只是把這個事情當成是教育部或說少數部會的一個責任的話我想再討論30年我們一樣討論一樣的議題為什麼這樣講因為同時間跟各位先進報告"},{"start":4296.849,"end":4320.274,"text":"八樓的未還委員會今天開的是壯世代的這個公聽會一個是高齡化的部分一個是少子女化的部分我們台灣現在面臨以及全世界其實都是面臨一樣的問題壯世代什麼概念2025年再過兩個月不到我們全台灣要進入超高齡化社會每五個人就有一位是65歲以上的人口"},{"start":4320.774,"end":4346.514,"text":"而少子女化什麼樣的概念之前我在衛環委員會在內政委員會都討論過今年是農年去年我們的出生額新的人數創歷史新低13萬5千而今年是農年農年預計今年的出生額的人口數會更低不到13萬人現在已經是一個歷史新低那如果說現在在推"},{"start":4347.674,"end":4347.694,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4366.167,"end":4386.31,"text":"但說實在我到目前為止以一個立法委員的身份我沒有辦法有答案我相信教育部次長長期或者是我們很多相關的一些專家前輩們也關心這個議題但如果說只是從教育的面向來著手而不是更擴大範圍來看的話其實我們都沒有辦法有一個真的"},{"start":4388.268,"end":4388.368,"text":"主席"},{"start":4406.387,"end":4427.885,"text":"現行的高中的學習歷程我還是認為因為過去到現在我們當然希望是學習歷程的改變是把聯考的制度給一個減少然後並且讓更多的高中學子來多元的不管是增進他的生命的經驗或者是說參與社會的一個部分而能夠讓我們大專院校有取得更多元的人才"},{"start":4428.405,"end":4428.545,"text":"學習歷程"},{"start":4449.013,"end":4477.128,"text":"行政部門一直強調是說它是可以存在可是你要怎麼樣能夠改進或怎麼樣減少這個弊端好像每年都還是重複老化一句所以我們真的還是在提出來是說如果不要讓它淪為軍備競賽的話那有什麼樣的方式能夠更好的來去解決這樣的問題那還有我們也不希望是說讓我們的技職教育變成是你沒有辦法進入到高等教育之後而不得不選擇的一個制度"},{"start":4477.848,"end":4495.076,"text":"所以說這一點我就想要提出來我們的教育資源能不能有整合整併跟分配以及民間的力量能不能進來做創新跟合作最主要就是當我們知道說傳統的思維來講高等如果說是一般的大專院校好的大專院校是那幾間"},{"start":4497.181,"end":4497.622,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":4519.808,"end":4538.164,"text":"進入真的是前幾名的大專院校所以你退而求其次第二個選擇我想這是我們可以努力的目標德國也好 歐洲也好其實有很多的大專院校或說有很多的學生他其實他一開始他就覺得說他要進入的是哪幾所 技職學校"},{"start":4538.584,"end":4538.884,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":4566.413,"end":4580.712,"text":"縮士博士生所以這一點也是我們在想說如果說我們真的要推動我們要重新拾回即時教育的部分教育部能不能有這樣的一個目標跟雄心壯志那再者我想拉回來最後還是要強調"},{"start":4581.633,"end":4607.761,"text":"因為今天的這個公聽會裡面有幾個議題其中也有是希望支援計職教育擴大生源跟吸引學生選擇計職教育那其中擴大生源的部分大家也都提到是有目前會有一些外籍生的部分那我們必須一而再再提醒絕對不要在台灣的社會裡面真的再出現所謂外籍生變成是學工的一個醜聞"},{"start":4608.621,"end":4632.943,"text":"或甚至說只要再有出現所謂的僑生專班被沒收護照被限制相關的一些資格的時候其實目前上都是一個很嚴峻的打擊我知道第一線教育工作者或者是正派經營的學校經營者其實都非常希望能夠透過外籍生的一個制度能夠讓所有的願意教學的老師以及願意培養的這個"},{"start":4635.665,"end":4655.772,"text":"教育人員都能夠持續下去但是真的有些時候一顆老鼠死壞了一鍋粥我們努力了好幾年但是只要出現一個學工的醜聞或是只要出現一個對於外籍生不利的醜聞對於我們台灣的國際地位也好對於我們的高等教育也好對於我們的私校也好"},{"start":4656.132,"end":4683.545,"text":"其實都是一個很大的打擊所以這一點也是為什麼提出來是希望源頭管理教育部身為主管機關就要針對這個部分防範於未來我們寧可是多加強集合多加強管理而不要等到事情發生爆發之後而造成社會大眾對於外籍生活對於學校的這樣的一個不信任或者是這樣的一個雙重的一個打擊"},{"start":4684.565,"end":4700.179,"text":"所以幾個部分孟凱提出來我想今天教育文化委員會因為等一下還有其他委員會我可能沒有辦法全都全程在現場但我會請辦公室同仁以及我在辦公室也透過直播來聆聽等一下各位先進的一個意見那麼更希望"},{"start":4701.377,"end":4730.476,"text":"我現在目前為止還沒有答案但是我們面臨到真的是很嚴峻高齡化、少子化以及我們整體的一個經濟的相關發展我們都希望面臨選擇的時候唯有就是大家更群策群力讓我們後續在第一線不管是修法的過程當中一定會聆聽大家的建議我們適時的來改進希望讓我們台灣社會越來越好再次感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":4731.737,"end":4736.121,"text":"謝謝主席還有在場我們有非常多還有我們的次長還有在場我們非常多過去我在私校服務二十幾年所認識的一些夥伴還有很多工會的朋友那我想我今天就因為曾經在私立大學服務過所以我想就一些非常現實的問題還是就教給各位"},{"start":4760.339,"end":4786.652,"text":"首先我們當然知道少子化它對於私校的衝擊不是今年才發生我記得那時候在民國105年的時候我們就說那個是一個少子化衝擊的元年距離現在已經十幾年了所以這不是現在才知道的但是呢我覺得十幾年前大家就已經有預警了可是我們很多對於私校的轉型還有包括我們中央部會對於這一方面的一個協助我說實在的速度是有點慢"},{"start":4787.412,"end":4795.058,"text":"而且呢 所以因為這樣子一連串的下來呢我們預估未來大概會有90所的私立高中職及單專院校都要面臨一個退場那在那個退場裡面所以我相信今天有非常多私校的我們的校長特別來因為他們有非常多現實的問題大家都要充滿的危機感那私校來說的話我在進入我的主題之前我還是要針對我之前所提到的中州這個部分裡面還是要再問一下"},{"start":4814.875,"end":4819.88,"text":"教育部到底在這個過程當中有多少的話語權因為內政部說他是一個偏遠地方他不是一個精華地帶但是臺中的立委黃建浩也曾經提出來了他本來就是規劃要做涉宅那為什麼現在不是所以教育部在這樣的立場還有內政部怎麼樣如何能夠來說服我們我覺得這個部分我還是要強調不要因為"},{"start":4838.897,"end":4865.565,"text":"私校的退場沒有好好的規劃你就喪失了對於實現居住正義這個章舉的這個大旗的這樣一個意志所以我還是希望教育部把你未來這九所學校的評估要退場的評估認為偏遠的地方還是給一份給本席一個報告接下來我還是要提到剛剛這個次長有提到的3加5不管是新五專模式或是類五專的模式不管它名詞是什麼我基本上覺得這利益是相當不錯的"},{"start":4866.305,"end":4866.445,"text":"公聽會議：完整"},{"start":4889.451,"end":4894.154,"text":"因為你喊了很多的時候要調整我們的學制但是你是不是先可以把這些所謂的補助先把它拉齊給我們五專生一個平等的一個條件嘛很具體來講嘛2014的時候呢你補力私立高中職五專都是每學期20349塊2024過了10年還是補助20349"},{"start":4911.363,"end":4911.463,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":4941.563,"end":4946.065,"text":"在這個學費補助上你是不是隱藏的對於我們過去的五專生有那麼一點不公平呢所以要來提出這個部分來說當然我也知道你2014年的時候呢已經是對於私立高中的148萬的門檻你已經取消了我還是強調目前來說呢也很多人提出申請對於五專前三年的學費那教育部呢卻說五專可以調整學費報部為由拒絕調整現在就讀五專前三年的一個補助"},{"start":4968.877,"end":4989.31,"text":"所以這個部分你要說服我們的話請讓我們的學費能夠一致這個是一個很基本的接下來我想很重要的地方就是有關於修私校法的第62條因為我還是強調經費錢都是私校目前最困難的私校裡面大概百分之七八十甚至八九十都是來自於學費那我們現在來說的話"},{"start":4991.171,"end":5013.692,"text":"本來是捐款私校可全額抵免、抵稅但是教育部也說在判文中部長時代也說要修法但是現在據說政府又開始反對了那為什麼要反對呢?我也聽不出一個所以然因為你現行的規定嘛個人或企業要捐款給私立學校只能扣除額是三成五到七成但是國立大學卻是百分之百我個人認為當然"},{"start":5015.513,"end":5015.633,"text":"當初在潘部長隱落"},{"start":5043.283,"end":5043.423,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5074.805,"end":5085.679,"text":"臺灣跟美國不一樣美國有錢都是念私校臺灣基本上面有錢有很好的教育資源全部往國立大學去的私校甚至當學務長在簽署那個急難救助的時候每一個禮拜要簽多少從兩萬到幾萬每一個都是班班血淚啊"},{"start":5090.265,"end":5090.365,"text":"文化委員會"},{"start":5106.713,"end":5106.733,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5123.066,"end":5123.166,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":5140.876,"end":5140.916,"text":"主席"},{"start":5168.31,"end":5168.85,"text":"烏張美副主任"},{"start":5185.528,"end":5204.633,"text":"講到新五專的部分新五專事實上是企圖打破一個升學的方式然後讓他學生可以直升二專然後後面進入就學的一個市場但是我們來看一下即職教育的升學管道我們目前的話即職教育分成技術型高中或是所謂的五專的部分那各位看到的"},{"start":5206.094,"end":5206.374,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":5234.457,"end":5251.963,"text":"國中畢業後直接就讀上去,也不用經過中間的任何升學考試的方式再來第二個,文憑觀念的部分,我們目前基本上就是大學畢業是所謂的基本概念了所以副學士他又不是學士,他就是一個副學士,還是有差別的"},{"start":5252.363,"end":5252.523,"text":"徐清徐清"},{"start":5270.02,"end":5270.481,"text":"新武酸有足夠誘因讓學生願意去就讀?"},{"start":5286.428,"end":5307.264,"text":"我們為什麼當初會提出新五專 我想當初也是因為記職的學生的生源的問題生源減少 所以根源在哪邊 技高因為我們知道說 記職的學生的主體是從技高開始的好 那技高的學生從早期 以前最早是7比3的比例到現在108年死亡交叉之後 現在已經剩下的大概是所謂的4比6的比例"},{"start":5308.044,"end":5308.164,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5329.48,"end":5331.182,"text":"自然而然加劇聲援分散傳統社會觀念氛圍因為即職教育本身就比較不受重視會讓即職成為次選擇問題"},{"start":5344.403,"end":5366.727,"text":"那為什麼會這樣子呢?包括另外有制度面的部分來看我們說升學的制度事實上是對技高學是非常的不利的我們來看這個表格好了如果你今天是就讀普高的學生首先你有32所國立大學可以選擇然後當中國立大學它的名額當中有4成2學生可以上國立大學普高生他可以選6加6個志願什麼叫6加6?他可以填6個普大志願還有6個科大志願"},{"start":5371.288,"end":5371.548,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":5386.995,"end":5387.015,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5402.675,"end":5424.71,"text":"優勝劣敗很明顯再來就是說升學考試的問題我們的我們知道說普高生他考普大的話他最多上限只會採記4科而已這是上限可是技高生呢他採記科目過多國英數專一專二專一每一個專業科目是1科到4科不等所以呢很多群科甚至於他的採記科目高達9科或10科遠遠超過普大"},{"start":5429.313,"end":5452.942,"text":"超過普大又採集的科目部分另外就是說我們專業科目上是比較複雜的就是說你一個專業科目包含很多子科目所以事實上學生的學習負擔是蠻重的再來當然就是缺乏彈性的問題我們知道說現在的學測的採集部分的話事實上它是有上限可是事實上在我們的四級二專部分的話我們第一階段還有登記分發都沒有限制採集的科目數這樣的話事實上並不利於學生的發展"},{"start":5457.165,"end":5459.147,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":5480.472,"end":5497.209,"text":"以招收高中生作為提升招生率的一個解決方式那本會認為說這個方式無疑是引陣止渴只會讓學生越來越不願意就讀技高那技高教育化會危在旦夕因為科大端認為說如此可以提升科大端的招生率可是"},{"start":5498.271,"end":5514.433,"text":"這個說法顯然有矛盾的地方因為以前據直思的說法是說四季二專的申請入學名額是外加名額那外加名額就不會記錄在招生率當中如果要記錄招生率的話那就代表什麼這是屬於原來應該讓技高生升起的名額"},{"start":5515.234,"end":5529.27,"text":"如果招不滿：就應該留用到後續的登記分發：讓技高生於後續的入學管道中使用：否則就與過去技職師所宣稱的：招收普高生系屬外加名額：不會影響技高生的說法是漢格的："},{"start":5530.271,"end":5553.032,"text":"本會認為,要達到成功的計職教育,吸引學生就讀是重中之重但單以高中生大學的管道而言,濟高生顯然受到不公平的待遇對學生而言,濟高教育所受的內容,強度並不亞於普高學生但升學進度的選擇卻明顯地又劣於普高請問一下學生有何理由要選擇辛苦又受限的計職管道來就讀"},{"start":5554.993,"end":5577.263,"text":"如果說四季申請續招如果實施的話短時間內看似可以美化招生率但只是更強化了家長學生對前面所說的普技高學生升學管道的落差印象那就別怪說大家選擇普高就讀因為當最大生源的技高學生也萎縮時試問科大又如何可以置身事外"},{"start":5578.343,"end":5586.032,"text":"致高學生成為了次等公民 如果這樣的話 再多的群去拯救即時教育也是沒有用的 以上好 謝謝全教授 我們吳副主任那接下來我們有請南台科技大學張宏德教授"},{"start":5605.265,"end":5629.952,"text":"主席還有各位先進大家好關於今天討論的這個四個議題第一個新的五專的招生模式那我從個人的這個服務學校的招收五專的經驗來看的話就是說一開始的時候回復來招收五專確實會有一些問題就是一開始招生的情況不是很好"},{"start":5630.672,"end":5655.418,"text":"但是經過幾年的運作以後其實效果是不錯的就是越招越好所以表示這個武專這個制度還是受到國中畢業生的這個青睞那部裡面現在所推的這個新的武專形式其實是也是一個方案因為我們早期在招收武專的時候面對一個問題就是"},{"start":5657.598,"end":5685.917,"text":"你招收武專的學校要進到高職去招生會遇到一些挫折他不會太想讓你進去因為你是跟他一起在競爭這個高職的生源但是現在如果是一個新的3加2的模式的話就是等於是跟高職一起共同的來招收國中的畢業生我覺得這個制度應該可以試著去推動"},{"start":5687.658,"end":5687.859,"text":"新型國際專班"},{"start":5701.692,"end":5722.723,"text":"傳統過去就是招收來進來打工的這種問題應該是比較不會出現因為新型的國際專班就我們學校現在跟這個墨西哥的這個學生招來的這個學生其實他程度是相當不錯的而且又解決了他的經濟問題過去為什麼會有這個打黑工的這個問題就是他的經濟問題沒解決的話"},{"start":5729.326,"end":5729.346,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5753.56,"end":5774.202,"text":"這次的這個新型的國際專班企業是要投入資源的可是呢學生往往都是這樣等到他接受了這個教育畢業了以後他回到他的國家他可能不一定會同意啦就是繼續的在這個產業服務常常就是有高薪吸引他就"},{"start":5775.199,"end":5775.219,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5796.761,"end":5797.241,"text":"第三個問題關於這個就是"},{"start":5811.301,"end":5828.203,"text":"捐助是不是能夠百分之百抵稅的這個問題其實整個私校的核心問題還是生源的問題所以今天看到說如何挽救我其實一開始的心裡想說這是必然不知道要有什麼挽救的方法"},{"start":5829.224,"end":5854.339,"text":"那核心問題是生源的問題所以還有就是私校的辦理就是還有資金的投入所以這個都要去兼顧到那我個人是支持說可以給他就是公私立學校他受到的這個捐助都可以相同的抵稅這個是應該是可以的但是呢怎麼讓私校今天的問題"},{"start":5855.66,"end":5879.725,"text":"就是說怎麼會經營成這個樣子其實是要有好的監管所以如果要同樣要獲得這個完全的抵稅我也是建議說怎麼能夠加強這個監管的機制比如落實公益的董監事的這個派任這個應該也是一個配套的做法"},{"start":5881.159,"end":5908.446,"text":"第四個關於高校公共性的問題其實我個人因為擔任了兩所退場學校的董事長我進入了處理這些問題的過程其實我也是體會到退場的時候師生受到了很大的傷害所以怎麼去避免這件事情或者怎麼讓他好好的退場"},{"start":5909.506,"end":5936.504,"text":"這件事情還是值得去重視的那目前看起來這個臺科大跟華夏的這個案子從目前看到的現況應該是比較好的模式因為至少如果當然剛才有提到還有很多法規要修訂的問題不過"},{"start":5938.277,"end":5961.599,"text":"你可以看到說怎麼讓老師在這個退場的時候他還有一段的時間可以去慢慢的退場老師還可以教在這個學校授課學生還可以在這個學校原校畢業這些制度都比目前直接一年就叫所有的師生"},{"start":5963.241,"end":5980.932,"text":"離開學校雖然老師有退場基金的支持該給他固定的費用是有但是學生端確實也是非常的困擾大部分的學生會就讀這些退場的學校"},{"start":5981.852,"end":6008.017,"text":"基本上他都有這個地域性的問題所以他不是可能說我幫你安置到別的學校他就能夠順利的畢業他多半是離不開那個環境的所以這一點是建議以後這個如果台科大跟華夏的這個模式能夠運作的比較成熟可以定為一種"},{"start":6009.617,"end":6010.298,"text":"鄭義大學監察人陳正貴"},{"start":6036.808,"end":6060.868,"text":"主席：萬委員：各位委員：各位長官：還有我們教育部的長官：各位先進：各位媒體朋友那在回答這個四個問題之前我有兩點在這個地方間做一個說明從各位所提的問題以及我相信待會要發表的意見"},{"start":6062.409,"end":6086.054,"text":"對於少子化來臨以及我們臺灣教育所面臨的問題可以說是非常的眾多而且還很多問題需要解決所以我第一個建議的是不是建議教育部召開第9次的全國教育會議以為因應這個是有一點嚴肅也有一點大也有很多人提"},{"start":6087.254,"end":6111.098,"text":"去看一下第8屆 其實是經過一段時間第7屆或是更早以前 我也有參與都有一段籌備 也配合當時的環境目前的環境真的少子化已經是步步進逼 只剩下4年很多問題需要解決 所以第一個建議第二個問題 我是在今天的公聽會 不願意就個案"},{"start":6113.899,"end":6113.919,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6136.29,"end":6136.89,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6156.46,"end":6179.559,"text":"我相信沒有一個人他在50歲50歲60歲的時候就被迫等於就是說失職他還有一個工作這個問題我們無法解決那這個我再講第二就是我們的就業平台沒有辦法及時獲得或是他們也沒有辦法去取得這樣的一個協助"},{"start":6180.299,"end":6206.841,"text":"第三 退場基金事實上是對疫情專輔退場的學校退場之後才給予的所以我們這個是屬於我要講的就是說我們政府目前是採行私校退場條例以私校法雙軌並行也可以由退場轉型的方式來雙方轉型退場"},{"start":6207.682,"end":6233.296,"text":"我們是採取第二種方式是合法的所以整個合法的這種程序也報到相關我們主管單位之後我們採取借錢所以是不是這一個基金能夠也可以利用到一直沒有想到的自己退場轉型的這樣的學校這是我一點福利那我底下呢針對這四點做一點說明"},{"start":6237.159,"end":6252.672,"text":"我剛才還有一點就是說2013年我們的雙語政策事實上是非常有前瞻性那我自己因為學外文的看到我在記者體系服務了九年高教夫的二十幾年當校長"},{"start":6254.253,"end":6271.518,"text":"看到我們的學生其實是整個的英文程度很差那現在的中理政策他的實質面很廣而且有城鄉落差資源分配策略措施落實的方面還有在努力我們要遭受境外生"},{"start":6272.538,"end":6288.139,"text":"其實是要國際化把國內的這種遭受救援生的環境要具體地把它打實才能夠遭到外籍生而且要避免剛才所說的像烏干達事件這樣的事情的發生"},{"start":6288.74,"end":6288.76,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6304.372,"end":6324.273,"text":"關於3加2類武專這個部分我看了一下這個利益良好讓學校跟科大合作得更緊密這個可以解決高職生的升學壓力如果我有看到我們在報紙上長官們提到了"},{"start":6325.254,"end":6349.511,"text":"加上大學生有系統的可以實習現在是都有在實習普通大學也在實習但是做得並不到位沒有系統化那如果都做到了之後確實可以符合產學的人才需求不過從家長和學生的觀點我也做了一些名利調查在台灣現在要拿個學士學位可以說是非常的容易"},{"start":6350.782,"end":6372.508,"text":"那這個必須要先拿個副學位再加二再拿個學士學位可能國立的要來配合比較容易也順理存章那一般高職生去拿個科大多了一個科大的學歷事實上是有吸引力但我問了有一些科大他們是反應平淡"},{"start":6373.368,"end":6392.881,"text":"不熱烈這個是大概目前的情況那我們在座的長官也可以再做一些調查那在少子化整體生源不增緩解的狀況之下3加2的模式對集中消費的拓展生源的成效有待觀察但對即時一般大學這個兩軌制的並行"},{"start":6395.743,"end":6421.162,"text":"我一直覺得即使是弱勢我們應該給予強力的支持用各種的方式讓它永續經營那這個國際專班的這個部分因為學校學生企業需簽訂合約學校入學條件有規定華語檢定要達到A2級企業也會挑人而且教育部有固定的查房"},{"start":6422.003,"end":6450.179,"text":"基礎所以這一些防範的措施我認為足以避免學校輪迴執訓場所那第三私校法這個大家已經都通過了如果在教育部財政部提高他的管理查核監督密度的天體之下剛才有人講了我是贊成透過薪水基金會指定的這些金款申報這個所得稅當年可以全數列足扣除額"},{"start":6451.3,"end":6451.861,"text":"林倩琦委員"},{"start":6473.643,"end":6495.737,"text":"主席還有我們的召委還有我們的立人同仁還有今天參與的與會專家大家好本席在回國之後就一直在私立大學任教因為我從小就不懂為什麼會有公私立大學在社會觀感上的這種差異所以我自己就希望我能夠到第一線跟我"},{"start":6496.517,"end":6522.372,"text":"一直有的問題的群眾站在一起所以這場公聽會最主要在探討說私校永續怎麼樣更有策略的而且更實際的來幫助私校的一個穩定經營當然我們知道學生數下降少子女化其實在很久之前國家就意識到這樣一個問題但是我們的政策在這幾個節點似乎也沒有真正處理到"},{"start":6523.829,"end":6539.823,"text":"社會各行各界的問題所以這整個的牽動就變成學生的教育選擇跟教職員生計的保障所以這關鍵問題是我們現在的政策是不是能夠真正有效的來處理現在的困境"},{"start":6540.484,"end":6569.015,"text":"所以我希望我們的討論能夠更實際更具體當然在私校的部分我也提出了一些這個政策建議那也提出了一些修法的建議所以這個部分今天因為我們有個主題是在3加2那雖然這個政策的一個利益良好想要讓高職跟科大之間的一個銜接更為緊密但是可能也碰到了一個問題因為這中間許多的制度都一直在動態的變化"},{"start":6570.496,"end":6597.462,"text":"所以高職有的時候也高中化那技職有的時候也高教化所以在這十幾二十年間每一個學校的這個變化非常的大那常常這個政策都趕不上變化所以它變成在這個3加2裡面又有一種情形就是當這個高職開始高中化變成這個普通高中的一個導向目標導向的時候呢那高職就"},{"start":6598.342,"end":6598.362,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6620.209,"end":6647.235,"text":"原本的定位清楚卻因為社會環境的變化那太多的學校也必須因為社會環境的變化而做一些定位上的處理所以大家一直在動態的變化過程當中這就導致政策趕不上變化所以我想今天討論這一點我也先指出來所以都是利益良好但是在執行面都碰到很大的問題那另外是一個我從上個會期就一直很關心的新型專班"},{"start":6648.315,"end":6670.43,"text":"當然這個新型專班是希望能夠吸引更多的國際生來當然我們口號上都希望吸引這個高科技人才但是常常都會落入了這個廉價勞工的前置平台所以這個部分呢雖然聽起來像是在紓解學校這個招生的一些壓力但是事實上內部有一些很多的問題"},{"start":6671.551,"end":6694.66,"text":"所以在過去的新南向已經給我們一些教訓學生學校為了增加收入然後招收了很多外籍生那這個本席也在這過程當中因為擔任老師其實還有老師面的一些問題但是我想今天我們比較先聚焦在學生談這件事情所以有學生剛才其實因為有幾位委員都講而且我也身歷其境"},{"start":6696.04,"end":6696.06,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6725.52,"end":6752.013,"text":"有一個比較清楚的方向但是都各有優劣所以我們到底能夠接受優劣條件的哪一些點我覺得這個部分是一個重點但是我這邊也要談到我們在選擇美國途徑的時候那專班的計畫有的時候會重值不重量但是也有可能出現我們沒有辦法因應的這個狀況所以在學生的這個選拔的標準"},{"start":6753.534,"end":6773.785,"text":"還有在這個部分如果有所謂橋包那個華語能力上的門檻那學生對台灣課程的這個適應這是會關係到老師的問題本席真的在這十幾二十年間在基層或是在這個群體裡面很實際的在教育現場可以點出很多的問題"},{"start":6775.266,"end":6783.997,"text":"所以這個完善的實習跟投訴的機制可以某種程度的減低剛才幾位委員跟專家所討論的"},{"start":6785.749,"end":6807.728,"text":"講到的這個問題所以廉價勞工的情況會出現但是我們如何去處理但是我們是不希望有這樣子的情形發生可是這跟教育部你到底現在是以教育為本位還是這個產業的前置作業我覺得這個可能是教育部自己本身也要很清楚的來做檢討"},{"start":6809.192,"end":6809.212,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6829.278,"end":6829.558,"text":"公聽會議：完整會議"},{"start":6854.818,"end":6871.019,"text":"新學基金的操作和62條修正如果有機會這樣進行的話那怎麼去控管我覺得這個是文工部門很重要的一個課題所以不管是你們提出來多少的幾加級的模式"},{"start":6871.8,"end":6898.2,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6900.741,"end":6903.682,"text":"主席 各位專家學者 校長 前天還看到何校長 還有大家好"},{"start":6924.225,"end":6944.137,"text":"我剛剛是從八樓下來八樓未還委員會正在召開壯士代公聽會然後我們教文在召開少子化公聽會這個就是很有趣一題之兩面所以我今天就在談這個怎麼解因為這個的解方是一套的"},{"start":6945.097,"end":6973.811,"text":"不是分開解一定是無解啦分開解一定是無解那這個10月17號我們的那個國發會拖了兩個月不敢公布的人口數據終於端出來為什麼兩個月一直拖呢我一直在逼他他都一直不敢公布因為變得更嚴重那特別在少子化我們比預估的提早的15年"},{"start":6975.336,"end":7002.025,"text":"本來預估新生委會破10萬預估是2054年結果這次預估是變成2040年提早15年少子化的政策你看現在這個每人也解決下來而且這個還叫樂觀預估我基本上估計在5年就已經破10萬了還不用待到2040年因為他不敢說實話為什麼遲遲不敢就是不敢面對"},{"start":7003.885,"end":7024.991,"text":"大家都不敢面對那教育部也是一樣啊教育部都不看這些數據的你現在為什麼大學一堆人在關門少子化是現在才突然發生的嗎20年前就發生了20年前就知道未來的人口這個國安會推估的人口推估深準了可以推估到2070年台灣人口只剩下1500萬減少將近1000萬"},{"start":7028.632,"end":7053.943,"text":"很蠢的教育部難道不知道嗎然後呢為什麼一直在增加大學這20年來一直在增加然後20 30年教改一直增加然後現在才一直關門這就是這都是我稱為叫做行政單位的慣性原理慣性就是一條路一直直走直走直走速度都一致然後往前都不會踩煞車也不會轉彎"},{"start":7057.155,"end":7072.228,"text":"現在是我們搶救危機的時候這就是國外的人口預估就大學學齡人口數2024年是有87萬人是18到21歲這四個年齡加起來87萬人然後推估到2040年會剩下67萬人到2070年會只剩下31萬人"},{"start":7084.994,"end":7105.437,"text":"各位在做大學的,絕對不要懷疑這一數據,很準耶,只剩下三分之一那請問只剩下三分之一,你的大學的經營,百年素人,你都沒在想這事情,都讀到時候在摸的手,所以呢,到底要怎麼樣?"},{"start":7108.413,"end":7113.636,"text":"你看這個報導,112年學年,大醫學生剩下20萬人一個年級差不多嘛,剛才這四個年級87萬人,2020年然後接下來,知指下到117年剩下15.7萬所以未來五年是私校的生死存亡的關鍵"},{"start":7133.14,"end":7153.217,"text":"然後大家都在搶同一塊萎靡的市場這叫慢性死亡我不知道大家有什麼方法有什麼對策然後呢少子女化這個已經定型了完全不用懷疑因為我們每年花了一千多一千兩百億在解決少子化的問題結果還提早15年"},{"start":7154.588,"end":7180.351,"text":"你就顯然就是無效嘛無效無效就要認清事實不要一直想說啊再拚拚看那樣然後再看看然後永遠不針對問題解決問題一直拖一直拖現在呢就是說這個問題很確定所以呢私校一定那也不是走向這個什麼那個轉型"},{"start":7183.291,"end":7210.319,"text":"那我跟大家報告其實這是大家未來可以看到的場景我剛剛講說從樓上到樓下我看到的就是這兩個圖樓上的八樓會館討論高齡化高齡化我們現在平均臥床超過8年了未來高齡者會佔人口的一半一半的人躺個8年然後就不用討論少子化的問題了因為全部被壓垮了"},{"start":7211.374,"end":7230.344,"text":"也沒有這個問題了啦 那年輕人沒有未來 也就變躺平竹了啦 所以大家躺成一片我沒有看到 這現在政府的就是大撒幣政策這邊國家 老的國家 年輕的國家 看你老的錢很好開啦我們現在社福預算已經今年超過8300億了 你很快就破萬億了啦"},{"start":7234.542,"end":7254.994,"text":"所以就是這些政策我們一定要改選我剛才再跟他講大家講說這個台灣未來最重要的未來30年最重要的事情就是高齡化跟少子化的事情天翻地覆我在樓上談的壯世代壯世代為什麼這個課題很重要現在這個叫扶養筆"},{"start":7260.647,"end":7278.153,"text":"20到64歲當分母這叫工作人口65歲當做分子就是被撫養的但因為高齡化所以分子就越來越大因為少子化所以分母就越來越小所以目前是3.6比1未來2057年就會變成1比1"},{"start":7281.934,"end":7283.175,"text":"教育是一個最重要的功能"},{"start":7292.967,"end":7314.433,"text":"林青霞你知道壯士大最大的遺憾現在60歲上來有600萬人台灣有600萬人平均就是退休了有600萬人那你知道林青霞這個今年就講說她人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學所以你看壯士大大概不到20%啦應該差不多10%左右有進大學所以他們的終身遺憾"},{"start":7315.633,"end":7342.233,"text":"少子化高女我們現在推動的叫第三人生大學為什麼大學只有18歲入大學80歲也可以入大學你應該不要在同一個市場搶你只要開放建立好這個教育的制度當中而且是有學歷不是社區大學、中年大學、老人大學這種休閒娛樂的他是追求夢想你知道有多少人要報名嗎至少300萬人要來報名而且這些人都有錢的不用公衛補助所以喔"},{"start":7342.873,"end":7366.069,"text":"現在教育部當然有開始在進行試辦計畫那現在呢 有各地像空中大學也把發展低產能生物大學當為目標特別是上禮拜我去華漢大學華漢大學已正式還有那個大同的賀校長也有到場我們都在討論這一個開放的 他們現在的大"},{"start":7367.29,"end":7372.735,"text":"教育部應該要大膽的講出來這一個退休讓退休不是進養老院而是進大學好不好教育部可以有這樣子的一個志向"},{"start":7387.108,"end":7387.989,"text":"接下來我們有請大同大學何明果校長"},{"start":7418.905,"end":7443.873,"text":"主席各位委員今天大家都在討論私立大學私立大學好像是過街老鼠本人就是老鼠頭私校協經會理事長我在這邊跟大家講我對於這個題目一直講到私校退場我覺得這個不是私校退場的問題這個是整體國家的問題我們常常講假設今天所有的大學都是台大還是要倒三分之一"},{"start":7444.893,"end":7466.063,"text":"全學校都是台大 還是要找三大 因為是沒有人的問題還有一件事情大家都沒有再注意到就是人口板塊的問題 人口板塊移動的問題因為當人口的數值是有個分佈的 當人少變少的時候大家都往前補滿五的時候 那個學校啊 它本身就要轉型了以前很多的公單 我們常常講唐校長的聖約翰以前是第三名的"},{"start":7467.028,"end":7495.655,"text":"在我們考試的時候是第三志願但後來必須變成要轉成從電機機械資訊要轉到餐飲旅遊為什麼因為當少子化的時候人口板塊在移動學校也跟著移動那這個現象已經開始發生在國立大學如果這次市長有再去注意到的話這國立大學的學生結構已經面對到10年前私立大學所面對到的結構所以這個東西不是就是所謂私立大學退場的問題那在這邊我也在講是說也不是少子化的問題因為"},{"start":7496.775,"end":7505.058,"text":"我們從品質的問題來看的話OECD國家的生死比其實是16比1我們大概是24比1但是我們從105年24萬人變16萬人如果變成24比1變16比1就嘟嘟後年了所以所有學校都可以堅守原來的專業繼續辦學"},{"start":7513.602,"end":7542.048,"text":"當然這個東西都不是今天討論的主題只是跟大家講我們的思維一直講少子化私立大學退場其實不是私立大學退場昨天我們看考選部也要開始要招生因為高考的人數掉下來的數字跟考聯考的數字是一樣的以後我們沒辦法我們可以想像工廠有工人是外國人你可以想像李幹事是外國人嗎所以這個事情是全部問題不用一直focus在私校退場這是第一點第二點就是教育是有成本的"},{"start":7542.968,"end":7563.623,"text":"教育是有成本的當然我們非常感謝賴總統在副總統的時候推動這個3.5萬3.5萬其實是加強了公共化因為學生就學他得到了補助所以他可以去讀大學這個我們要十分的讚揚 非常地讚揚 完全贊成但是私立學校有沒有拿到錢"},{"start":7565.441,"end":7566.061,"text":"教育是有成本的"},{"start":7586.482,"end":7602.648,"text":"就是你去算 因為我從企業來的 我就去算我們這個學校的人事費 其實已經超過學費了很多學校的人事費也是超過學費的那這個人事費怎麼算呢教育部有一個表 可以去算得出來的"},{"start":7603.608,"end":7627.567,"text":"教授多少錢,副教授多少錢生死比是固定的,照生死比去算,可以估得出來這個學生的成本裡面有多少是人事費那三分之一可以用兼任的,這個一把算進去這個其實教育部可以去算,三分之一可以用兼任那兼任的是多少錢,可以估出來人事費再下來,其他錢很難估,但是建物的"},{"start":7629.63,"end":7651.665,"text":"責救是可以估的因為教育部有規定總量有規定文學院的學生10平方米理學院的時候12平方米工學院17平方米碩士班22平方米那建築成本在兩年前我要蓋房子的時候大概是16、7萬一坪現在已經漲到將近30萬一坪了我用16、7萬一坪那你可以去除"},{"start":7653.174,"end":7655.596,"text":"公立學校的財務沒有比私立學校好"},{"start":7681.161,"end":7681.221,"text":"施效龍頭"},{"start":7695.373,"end":7710.885,"text":"發牢騷的話現在變一下我們現在是新學基金會董事長在這邊感謝各位來支持私校法62條這個問題因為其實私立學校只是要求一個"},{"start":7711.866,"end":7738.221,"text":"公平的競爭我們剛才講教育是有成本的只是是誰出的問題是政府出或者是多少比例是學費出那私立學校還有自己去找多少錢來這個是這個可以講這可以討論因為這是公共化的問題如果說你要跟歐洲學校一樣大家都來都政府出那就照政府出如果說這個一部分多少比例是學費出那個這個是可以討論是公共化的議題"},{"start":7740.785,"end":7763.628,"text":"私立學校要在經費的爭取上面除了學費以外很多可能就是捐款捐款的時候私立學校跟公立學校是完全不平等剛剛有一位先進是說私立學校百分之百會影響到公立學校我覺得這不會了這個不可能發生的事情大部分的私立學校的學生可能會"},{"start":7764.773,"end":7792.469,"text":"同時讀大學是私立的研究所讀公立的所以他在捐錢的時候通通捐給公立的因為那個百分之百免稅捐到私立的就很辛苦我可以親自一個真正的例子就是之前我們有個校友我們有個校友他同時捐了一億給某國立大學捐一億給本校國立大學開了一個會一億就可以了就收走了"},{"start":7793.496,"end":7815.374,"text":"本校經過三步六會 又是視訊那時候疫情 視訊找財政部找教育部開了很多會找立法院開了很多會 終於就通過了就說可以捐了 就連那年的鼓勵都沒有領到因為搞了很久 準備了這麼厚一疊的資料所以公司力在捐款上面是非常的不平等的"},{"start":7816.815,"end":7841.871,"text":"所以在這邊我想說私校法如果60號可以修正我是樂觀其成那至於如何監理很多方式董事會的財報的時候可以要求會計師去監理捐款這一塊教育部的經費查核也可以去查這一塊要求查這一塊還有就是如果必要的時候做專案的查核其實也是可以做的這個私校新學基金會謝謝大家的支持 謝謝"},{"start":7845.387,"end":7863.155,"text":"好,謝謝我們的何校長不過我真的要特別重申一下何校長剛剛一開頭太委屈了私校絕對不是這個過街老鼠反而是其實本席認為跟很多人的看法都一樣私校在我們過去我們整個國家的這個教育史上扮演非常重要的角色"},{"start":7863.795,"end":7863.895,"text":"榮譽理事長"},{"start":7883.44,"end":7907.303,"text":"我們主席、外媒委員、各位長官、還有次長、還有所有的教育夥伴、媒體小姐先生大家早安那我首先廣告一下我們桃園市教堂會堂協會都是桃園市公私立國小、國中、高中的會長去組成的那目前我們的理事長也就是我們今天的召集人外媒委員他是從市議員到委員都非常"},{"start":7908.244,"end":7934.295,"text":"重視教育、自治教育、了解教育這一點我非常敬佩他那我稍微廣告一下這去年台灣大地震的時候我們委員召集我們桃園市座李建是總會長3天內我們就大概120幾萬透過委員直接送給花蓮縣政府這個是我們委員召集大家3天內雖然是金額不大120萬但是大家都是掏心掏肺、掏支票你知道嗎都是3千、5千、1萬、2萬非常非常非常非常的了不起"},{"start":7937.836,"end":7965.274,"text":"那首先啦我在我們懷念民國70年大概1981年那個武專時代那時候我是讀桃園市非常出名的天主教的私立學校那我在參加北聯同時考武專同時錄取那我們家人都很掙扎他說高中比較好以後可以讀台交青對不對讀武專好像比較沒有什麼前途但是我爸爸跟我媽媽是寶貝你知道嗎"},{"start":7966.715,"end":7968.996,"text":"武專對我的命比較好所以議員就帶我們去報武專第一屆台北公專、明治公專、新埠公專、明星公專、大同公專都是我們最嚮往的所以我真的講是受益者為什麼呢?"},{"start":7986.167,"end":7996.442,"text":"因為我在讀武專以後我還考上藝官很多台交青的都被我們打敗了可見我們的記憶力不會輸給那些所謂的大學生那我是藝官那我畢業以後"},{"start":7999.611,"end":8023.046,"text":"退役以後馬上考上一個臺灣很出名的一家電機公司而且學到很多豐富的產業知識跟技術我們帶著一顆大腦跟兩隻手打遍天下無敵手還是地帶台商真的帶著大腦到大陸去連供電機都不是我們的對手所以我們臺灣那時候武專非常非常地了不起所以我們不會很自卑"},{"start":8024.046,"end":8044.148,"text":"成幾何時,我們的武專被廢武功,那時候18分可以考上大學,甚至只要是去報名,隨便填一填,一定可以考上,一定可以報一個大學,所以大學就是無庸論,大學是大人進的學校,不是說可以讓你的資格更長進。"},{"start":8046.63,"end":8046.65,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8061.741,"end":8066.702,"text":"桃園很多的家長龍頭還有一些的校長我們在討論著首先我們做一些簡單的一些對我們家長還有學生的一些對3加2所謂的我們的看法我們覺得說這是有助益的因為回復到五專的時代雖然是跟科技大學結友相當不錯的一個建議"},{"start":8086.329,"end":8096.74,"text":"他可以吸引職場導向的學生因為這次可以快速進入學習也可以得到一個學位不管是護學位護學也不錯因為護學總比大學沒有什麼技術還好而且有第二點可以減輕家庭負擔你知道台灣很多的中下階層非常多"},{"start":8108.372,"end":8115.439,"text":"考上大學還有學校大學生很奇怪教授都鼓勵我們繼續讀碩士碩士要讀博士讀博士要讀雙博士好像都要把他的口袋掏空所以我覺得說很不恰當畢業就失業"},{"start":8124.187,"end":8137.071,"text":"所以我覺得說我們若是有三家的這個機會我們最少可以傳統四年大學還有兩年所的學制可以兼到一到三年的時間所以可以讓我們減輕家庭還有家長的負擔第二個我們產學合作可以提升我們的競爭力所以早進入職場那我覺得說我們教育部也要產官學員一起來研究包括我們的比較科技的大佬來研究"},{"start":8153.338,"end":8153.378,"text":"讓我們的產業"},{"start":8155.831,"end":8155.851,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8186.131,"end":8194.202,"text":"好的學生都是獨裁教卿不好孩子都即時教育我們曾經有做過研究台灣大學的學生大部分都是"},{"start":8195.305,"end":8216.94,"text":"高中的來源都是他的家庭病比較好那即使學校大學的那個家長背景都是比較落後的所以這個是我們台灣比較悲哀的部分所以我們要提升我們即使的形象叫我們產業的合作那我們有幾點來給大家建議就是說十幾機會的不足就是說我們希望就是說"},{"start":8218.261,"end":8228.47,"text":"我們在學期之中可能要導向學生來多跟產業來合作第二點可能比較嚴重專業資質不足因為我覺得我們的專業資質本來就不足了但現在要三家的話可能會缺乏產業經驗所以這會造成孩子跟我們產業沒有辦法來結合"},{"start":8243.864,"end":8249.309,"text":"第三點,課程設計要靈活一點課程不一定適合每個孩子希望大家一起跟學校、教育部、專家學來研究課程與市場系統有脫節的風險風險就是說因為計畫趕不上變化你現在學的未來趕不上"},{"start":8264.784,"end":8264.804,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8283.454,"end":8283.474,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8304.301,"end":8305.762,"text":"最後幾張照片給大家參考一下"},{"start":8322.541,"end":8324.022,"text":"前世界沒有那麼大的那種的境界桃園市所有270所學校"},{"start":8348.072,"end":8351.535,"text":"校長、四個主任、家長會長、還有大學端一共1700多人感謝我們的超級人、萬美人、委員感謝我們教育部長還有葉次長來給我們桃園一場教育公會的饗宴最後感謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":8366.769,"end":8367.47,"text":"張楊科技大學 鍾韻琴教授"},{"start":8387.616,"end":8399.207,"text":"主席各位好夥伴叫好夥伴是因為在舊國團15年很習慣沒有什麼長官不長官都是夥伴都是好朋友"},{"start":8401.909,"end":8419.984,"text":"在進行議題報告之前 容我先對教育部的各位同仁表達敬意與謝意我們今天討論的四個議題或者其他的建議 都是以前的制度、法規"},{"start":8421.825,"end":8435.897,"text":"執行者留下來的一些困境在大環境之下造成這種困境結果我們現在的教育部同仁要去承擔他們沒有抱怨"},{"start":8437.196,"end":8441.198,"text":"我記得每一次開會打電話給楊師長就跟他講什麼問題他就講說董事長沒關係沒關係我們坐下來談一談看怎麼解決怎麼幫學校所以我一定要先對我們教育界的同仁表達敬意因為他們的努力才能夠讓我們今天學校能夠有機會往前發展"},{"start":8463.069,"end":8470.796,"text":"教育部推動新型五專3加2模式能不能幫助私校的生源我持肯定的態度因為在來參加開會之前我很怕一個人的意見誤導了"},{"start":8479.705,"end":8505.983,"text":"今天代表所講出來的話所以我邀請了中部地區的一些同仁跟朝陽科技大學的主管我們討論了兩個總統他們對這個模式很贊成為什麼呢第一個過去的五專學制教育部要各私立科技大學技術學院辦朝陽科技大學絕對不辦為什麼呢"},{"start":8507.967,"end":8516.995,"text":"因為這會跟高職搶聲援本來這碗我講的水都已經很少了大家還在那裡你多喝一口我多喝一口資源不足就會競爭就會衝突所以呢我們絕對不辦現在改變態度啦"},{"start":8527.638,"end":8544.838,"text":"現在朝陽科技大學 搶先表達說要辦 為什麼呢 因為新型的五專3加2模式科大跟高職各有聲援不衝突 而且科大端能夠跟特定的高職合作"},{"start":8546.254,"end":8546.454,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":8567.506,"end":8587.828,"text":"他有專業技術,再讀兩年他有副學士,再讀兩年他又有學士,所以我認為3加2模式新型的這一個是可行而且朝陽執行的成果根據鄭校長跟我報告是有成果的"},{"start":8588.991,"end":8591.093,"text":"第二點 國際專班新型專班的問題我想國際專班次長也提過了 不是只限於新南向"},{"start":8600.08,"end":8620.247,"text":"台灣的記子教育在世界是四大名地區,全世界都在學我們,所以我們不要覺得記子不好記子不好我是在國立大學七年,我就到記專校院二十幾年,為什麼呢?因為我覺得這一個才有意義"},{"start":8621.127,"end":8625.631,"text":"好 新型武專的臨選過程相當嚴謹這一點各位放心本來鄭校長叫我不要講但是我還是要講他說我們要求的更多印尼地區報名的也很多但是因為規格太嚴格了"},{"start":8641.166,"end":8658.565,"text":"191個名額到最後通過了只有112個所以我認為我們只要基專校院的學校認真執行憑良心正規辦學這個新型的人才培育專班絕對可以落實但是有一點建議"},{"start":8660.612,"end":8682.242,"text":"我們現在國立大學面對的是大型企業臺灣絕大部分都是中小型企業本來朝陽科技大學合作的一個廠商是中小型他也很缺工而且也是工具類的等等可是老闆要30個名額他一想到"},{"start":8684.063,"end":8696.219,"text":"30個名額一年一個12萬兩年24萬30個名額就是720萬所以對他來講他就很痛苦啦所以到最後"},{"start":8697.529,"end":8713.929,"text":"三十個就故意挑這個故意挑那個只來五個所以我這個建議啦我這個建議能不能多編一點經費但是不要再叫教育部編啦教育部的碗這一碗水就這麼多你編了以後別人就少分啦能不能請國發費啊"},{"start":8715.911,"end":8734.218,"text":"考慮一下多編一點經費每個月一萬元的津貼呢廠商你要人才培育你要有工作者你編三分之二那麼國發會編三分之一那麼代表互補性而且責任共同承擔性"},{"start":8735.939,"end":8757.439,"text":"好 論題是高教公共化的性質大專整併國立大學大專整併我認為可行為什麼呢就是公立學校而言它增加了資源平白無故多了校地多了建築多了設備就私立科大私立基專校園私立大學而言順利"},{"start":8759.361,"end":8762.622,"text":"解決了退場的事件紛爭我跟張宏德董事長 我們都兼兩個學校的董事長每天 不敢說每天啦 每個禮拜都有訴訟案好像我變成前客 送棍一樣"},{"start":8776.028,"end":8801.145,"text":"好問題就是教職員工生的權益都沒有辦法很圓滿的解決那如果是公私病的情形之下以臺灣科大華夏的退場機制就比較圓滿啦最後呢我提兩個建議不知道可不可行第一個新型3加2模式是不是除了理工金融半導體之外能夠考慮社會科學"},{"start":8802.006,"end":8803.106,"text":"謝謝鍾教授接下來我們有請郭育群委員發言"},{"start":8831.581,"end":8853.275,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天其實真的也很開心在這個地方我們聽到就是舉辦這樣子的一個公聽會的一個機會那我想在講到私校經營困難面臨財務危機的這個同時其實我想要先表達的就是退不退場其實真的不是重點啦重點其實是在於這個強化教育的品質"},{"start":8854.416,"end":8882.063,"text":"我覺得這個才是我們長遠的一個目標那我想即時教育其實我覺得它非常有需要在更多的精進的一個就是不管是從學校端或者是老師端或者是我們大家一起來就是來強化這個部分那我以講我自己本身的例子在我的那個年代我的那個年代其實我們有高職跟高中"},{"start":8882.898,"end":8888.87,"text":"我自己本身就是高職生那我當時在高職的時候我念的是服裝科"},{"start":8890.151,"end":8919.697,"text":"我非常的感謝那三年的一個訓練當大家在念普通科的科目的時候其實我們都在逢任教室我在車衣服但也後來造就了我一雙巧手喔就是從高中的時候那我高中前三名高職的都是前三名畢業那最後呢其實我就發現欸我想要在考大學我就得到南陽街去補習然後後來殊途同歸我考上淡江法文系"},{"start":8922.861,"end":8941.58,"text":"技職教育的部分在職業學校以我當初的訓練對我來講我是非常感謝那三年的一個完整的訓練讓我在不管是在服裝化、室內設計甚至於在手工藝或者是在各個方面在縫紉"},{"start":8943.342,"end":8943.502,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":8959.904,"end":8976.935,"text":"那我想這個即時教育的存在其實是有它的必要性那今天其實在跟大家探討這個退不退場我剛剛講這個真的不是重點那我想跟大家來討論一下就是關於台灣即時教育其實在這個聲援減少這已經是不可逆的一個趨勢了那跟產業結構的一個變遷我們可能將來會面臨到的一些所謂的這個學校的一個衝擊"},{"start":8986.382,"end":9000.5,"text":"其實以112年為例啦112年的8月公司立的國中畢業生的人數是195,000多人但是呢112年當年的出生人口數呢一下子降到了13.5萬人"},{"start":9003.223,"end":9003.243,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9028.512,"end":9056.666,"text":"工作業別上的一個需求其實就有一個明顯的不一樣的一個改變那比方說是課程的內容是不是過時那我相信有許多的這個技職的課程仍然停留在傳統的技術上但是現在因為新興的科技比方說是AI或物聯網或者是機械人等等或者是數位行銷是不是能夠有效的納入在課程當中才能夠去讓整個技職教育能夠跟我們的產業"},{"start":9057.887,"end":9084.43,"text":"完整的一個接軌 這個我們要考慮的那第二個部分就是缺乏產業的一個連結傳統的即職教育跟企業之間到底這個合作有沒有無縫接軌這個也是我們必須要考慮的學生是不是真的能夠在畢業之後他能夠有實職或者實務上的一個不管是經驗也好或者是他實習也好讓他可以"},{"start":9084.89,"end":9084.91,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9107.993,"end":9127.358,"text":"跨領域能力需求現代技職專業需要更多不同的跨領域比方說製造業不是只要懂機械操作而已也要了解數位化管理、數據分析等等傳統的技職課程往往會比較難"},{"start":9131.459,"end":9132,"text":"臺灣的半導體和晶片製造"},{"start":9149.72,"end":9170.47,"text":"其實已經是全球非常非常頂尖的那但是呢在年輕人在面對這些所謂的高工時高壓力的一個工作到底這個興趣高不高會不會導致他們其實也不太願意投入自己到這個產業當中那再來就是傳統的製造業更不用講這個工時更長"},{"start":9172.931,"end":9174.532,"text":"會否因為這樣導致將來其實投入在我們的勞動界當中的一個勞動力不足?"},{"start":9193.806,"end":9213.831,"text":"建築業的部分傳統的一些木工水泥工或者是電焊工等等這些需求其實我們是增加的是增加的但問題是我們的人力到底夠不夠那這樣子的一個部分其實對於所謂的即職教育的學生來說他願不願意他在學了這一門的"},{"start":9214.491,"end":9236.869,"text":"一生的功夫之後能不能夠真正投入到我們的一些傳統產業當中那更不用講醫療或長照甚至於服務業還有科技、資訊甚至農業的部分其實我們也都擔心喔那我記得其實在這個歐洲齁其實我常常去法國或者是其他歐洲的一些國家我們都會看到平常我們在台灣都說歐洲"},{"start":9238.55,"end":9240.572,"text":"其實我們大家對於傳統技職的學生是不是在這個不同的觀念剛剛其實我也有特別提到"},{"start":9261.27,"end":9262.011,"text":"謝謝郭育群委員接下來我們有請陳佩玉委員發言"},{"start":9292.612,"end":9309.119,"text":"好 謝謝主席那在場各位先敬大家早安今天這個題目其實我看了很久我很好奇主席的意象到底是什麼但我猜不出來所以我決定用我自己觀察到的現況還有我們收集到非常多現場的故事跟大家請教"},{"start":9309.839,"end":9331.19,"text":"我們知道國發會相關的人口推估報告2070年人口將降為約1500萬人如果少子化的趨勢沒有辦法改變那到時候65歲以上的人口將上升到46.5%那大家可以想見到這個情況我會說少子女化或者是私校退場的困境應該不是未來式應該是現在式"},{"start":9333.491,"end":9333.531,"text":"國教階段"},{"start":9352.58,"end":9371.773,"text":"大專私校的部分我們知道有生源不足的問題或者是各校財務惡化或者是管理不當的問題我想這個是大家都沒有辦法逃避的困境那錢的這個事情先前行政院有提出拉近公私立學校學雜費差距還有配套措施的方案希望相關的費用"},{"start":9372.093,"end":9372.693,"text":"教學品質是什麼?"},{"start":9395.79,"end":9417.025,"text":"資金來源的部分學生來源才是困境小子女化這個議題對於很多家長來說他們可能更關心的是我的孩子去哪裡念書而那個學校可不可以真的帶給我的孩子有長遠的競爭力的可能性至少在家長所能夠想像的大學四年到六年到八年這個階段所以之前"},{"start":9418.145,"end":9434.19,"text":"如果大家有印象在這個會期或是上個會期其實都有相關的國民黨委員或者是民眾黨委員一直在質詢教育部說為什麼這麼多家長把小孩往國教階段的私校送那我就問如果今天又是這個題目我們一邊"},{"start":9435.01,"end":9462.145,"text":"罵家長或是罵教育部你沒有拿出對策讓家長把小孩往私校送可是今天的題目卻看起來好像又是要挽救私校我真的覺得這個邏輯怪怪的所以我們要務實的面對我們如何看待私校跟所謂的消費者也就是學生跟家長的關係而不是今天私校很擠很滿的時候我們就罵私校順便罵一下公校老師而現在有私校來陳情我們又要幫忙私校我們到底"},{"start":9462.645,"end":9488.117,"text":"在做什麼事情我也要拜託現場的先進持續提供給教育文化委員會的委員意見那我們還看到教育部有推出新型五專3加2還有國際產業人才教育專班甚至呢葉司長也在還提出每個大學大家合作來開跨校的AI課程我相信我們都看到教育部有非常非常多的誠意可是在這些誠意底下我們都希望真的可以積極學校透過"},{"start":9489.057,"end":9490.619,"text":"主席的提問提到退場的概念所以我也想要來問一下"},{"start":9505.635,"end":9506.296,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員：完整會議"},{"start":9524.716,"end":9547.203,"text":"也就是說當學校退場之後如果教育部他用一個中央的思維想要解決各地學校特教生轉學後到新的學校安置的問題然後適應的問題跟學生跟同學相處的問題環境需求的問題特教助理員的問題那教育部不能用一個簡單的SOP就想要解決這些特教生的困境而且我們看到"},{"start":9547.563,"end":9549.184,"text":"接下來還有大漢技術學院他們採的不是退場條例,他們採的是私校"},{"start":9573.433,"end":9584.577,"text":"想要離開這個那個升學的軌道離開花蓮可是他們用的方法最近也被監察委員提出糾正了他們正在組織調查研究所以我們要發現到底私校退場什麼方法才是對的才是能夠確保"},{"start":9588.558,"end":9588.738,"text":"退場的機率"},{"start":9605.344,"end":9626.499,"text":"中央要有SOP,那他們跟地方政府的溝通又會是什麼?跟學校的溝通又會是什麼?我隨便舉幾個例子,大家聽聽看,會不會是私校現場現在退場所沒有辦法解決的困境,結果所有的苦果要我們的學生來承擔,要我們的家長來承擔?例如說,學生的安置,就近入學,是安排到相近的學校,相近的科系嗎?"},{"start":9627.659,"end":9646.151,"text":"一旦有特教生進入大專院校他們被轉學特教相關資源尤其是有重度特教的孩子們該怎麼辦還有學校退場之後學生退學率的追蹤我們一直要求教育部必須要勇於面對學生休學到新的學校之後休學率的追蹤這件事情非常的重要"},{"start":9646.471,"end":9647.132,"text":"教育部必須建立規格及機制討論,協助學生,協助新學校,協助新經營管理團隊"},{"start":9665.171,"end":9680.716,"text":"有非常多縣市政府一年1500萬面臨經營一所學校要不要讓他退場中學小學幾乎是1500萬的規格很多人認為反正少子化部落沒了鄉村沒了就把學校關掉就好了但是大家不要忘記了"},{"start":9681.776,"end":9700.094,"text":"在COVID-19的時候有非常多學校他發揮了非常重要的功能在協助地方政府也好在協助疫情的部分協助後續的部分所以我要談的是這個是近年來大家可以想像的例子但是在更久遠以前我們可以知道其實很多學校擔負了地方文化據點這個角色"},{"start":9701.335,"end":9701.355,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9731.015,"end":9733.097,"text":"全教總 侯俊良理事長"},{"start":9763.688,"end":9780.02,"text":"主席還有我們教育部的官員以及我們現場的先進大家早安我想針對這個議題在發言之前我想要特別提一下教育公共化是全校總我想很多的一個團體都一直非常倡議的一個議題"},{"start":9781.261,"end":9792.146,"text":"在這個議題底下我呼應一下剛剛我們的一個學生代表其實目前私校法的修法我們了解說李議員從上一屆跟這一屆都有提出39條跟57條的一個修正我認為在這個部分如果我們真的是注重學權"},{"start":9799.189,"end":9799.349,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9817.389,"end":9817.529,"text":"施肖的少子化"},{"start":9836.102,"end":9850.967,"text":"想用一個趨勢圖讓大家了解其實整個全國的一個出生人數我想很多的一個好夥伴對這個圖都不意外它就是一個往下的一個曲線所以少子化是一個早就知道的一個現象"},{"start":9851.607,"end":9875.98,"text":"那從這邊來看各位可以了解從公立學校跟私立學校的一個曲線圖10年當中其實整個往下滑的部分是私校私校的部分大概現在從最高峰的13萬到現在的一個8萬多大概現在已經快不到六成但是在這樣一個底下我要回應的是這一個題目少子化少子化不見得會讓所有的"},{"start":9882.128,"end":9882.148,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9907.094,"end":9932.866,"text":"有11校是75%以上那就代表在這個過程當中我要強調的是整個過程的一個少子化裡面還是有些私立的大學跟技專他是半學受到肯定的那我覺得某些部分我們要去看這些的一個長處到底怎麼樣來解決這樣一個少子化所產生的一個衝擊是不是因為在同樣的一個過程當中有些的一個不管是私立大專或是技專學校"},{"start":9934.167,"end":9934.287,"text":"財務公開透明"},{"start":9946.608,"end":9973.629,"text":"這是一個很基本的讓大家了解第二個部分就是教師勞動條件的一個確保那才有辦法讓學生的一個受教品質得到肯定那這個東西會累加我講的是這些優質的一個私校的一個部分它的一個伴學甚至有些是直逼公校那另外對於這些故意提供不死招生還有財務資訊的一些私校我覺得應該要去做處理前兩個是我們觀察認為這些優質的學校對"},{"start":9976.391,"end":9994.49,"text":"有這樣的一個特定的一個優勢那後面三個是我們認為說應該要去加強的第四個就是私校董事院引進公益董事其實我們了解很多要退場的他的問題都是來自於一開始整個董事會整個的一個對於校務的一個過度的一個介入"},{"start":9995.932,"end":10012.424,"text":"這個部分如果我們不去改善這些問題以後還是會存在所以我覺得這些問題應該是在先前去做處理那全校總我們一直在提這些問題問題是我們針對我們這些法令的條文針對這些東西有沒有達到一些有效的改善"},{"start":10014.165,"end":10033.981,"text":"主管機關,特別是私校退場條例之後其實也看到蠻多的私校透過這樣方式我覺得這個部分要給教育部肯定在整個退場裡面確實因為有這樣子一個比較公開的一個監督資訊的一個揭露我想大家會緊張然後會在這個部分去做改善我想這個部分是要給"},{"start":10036.556,"end":10051.738,"text":"想給教育部一些肯定那對於私校法62條的一個修正我想大家的關鍵可能會是放在這個條文那我也是針對這個條文來做一些處理首先我還是要回到公捐給公跟捐給私絕對是不一樣"},{"start":10052.239,"end":10076.561,"text":"因為公就是所有的公立學校所以他全額我覺得是合理的但是私的部分以這個條文來講其實經常很多私校在講他沒有接受公家的補助那請問以現狀他的一個可以扣抵這個稅額的部分原本應該是繳進國庫的一個稅額變成支持私校那請問這是不是公的一個資源的一個介入其實是喔"},{"start":10077.594,"end":10077.614,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10100.436,"end":10119.449,"text":"整個董事會的運作是怎麼樣還有這些錢我們是不是可以來要求應該有些優先應該在哪個部分去做處理如果我這個學校接受補助的接受這樣捐款的他本身對老師的勞動權益是不重視的那他不改善這個部分然後拿去做其他的一個用途可以嗎"},{"start":10120.615,"end":10147.692,"text":"我想讓他的一個監督更公開化會有助於更多有心要捐的人其實現在要捐的人應該多只是他也他也要看啊我這個監督的一個機制夠不夠如果夠公開的一個監督我想會吸引更多的這樣子的一個願意捐款的人進入捐款所以我覺得重點是在落實監督這件事情那在這件事情上我們都不去談不去談去談那個開放的一個數額的部分我覺得有點本末倒置啊"},{"start":10148.252,"end":10175.301,"text":"應該回到這個部分去做一些處理所以我想這個部分大概是我們對62條的一些意見那對於公私整併的部分我們當然還是提醒教育部應該要做某些的一個前因前面的一個盤點他的挑戰是什麼大概有這些項目我想這些大家都了解校園文化法令等等還有私生共識特別是老師的一個勞動權益等等的那我們的立場一樣你要去改變你要去"},{"start":10176.121,"end":10202.782,"text":"解決這些問題你要讓他有意願而且讓他不會後續產生很大的問題那我想我提兩個一個是確保教職員生的一個在職跟退休的一個權益還有學生的一個權益這都一定要保障在沒有保障底下你貿然去做這方面的處理我想會引申更大的問題那如果反過來有這些的一個保障我想整個公司合併的部分會是一個比較順暢的部分這大概是我們的一個想法以上 謝謝"},{"start":10205.768,"end":10207.053,"text":"謝謝侯理事長接下來我們請聖約翰大學唐彥博校長"},{"start":10227.049,"end":10227.65,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10246.252,"end":10262.286,"text":"當然今天在場有來自各個不同的屬性每一個表達但是從我個人大概有三種身份一個深圳漢科大今天被兩位委員關注倍感榮幸當然其中另外一個是大漢技術學院"},{"start":10264.488,"end":10287.06,"text":"我目前也是私立教育事業協會理事長為了今天公聽會我們有215個會員從國小、國中、高中到大學我透過群組裡面他也提供了一些意見第三個我也是私立科大的榮譽理事長我實現請教的一些科大的校長另外我也是私立教育"},{"start":10288.61,"end":10308.006,"text":"施行學會教育部的召集人剛前面有委員提到大安技術學院的問題我這邊特別澄清一下我想任何一個民主機制絕對是多元的一個情況我當時當主席的時候我讓所有參與委員都充分的表達最後我們用民主機制投票"},{"start":10308.686,"end":10308.706,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10324.51,"end":10349.902,"text":"這個剛剛範宜芬委員特別提到也有機會敦請他到我們聖約翰來給我指導一下目前聖約翰沒有積欠任何老師的薪水那以我們學校為例大概可以最佳的一個案例我們如何浴火重生我經過五所學校校長今年是第八十八年所以每個私校的經營情況各位可以看到臺灣面臨到很多地震帶"},{"start":10351.102,"end":10379.141,"text":"臺灣的鎮央區各位可以看到14年是在高中子17是在我們大專校院我昨天晚上做簡報做到12點多今天早上5點多再起來做因為我們參加了昨天私立大學校長會議所以私校我們可以看到包剛主席也提到私立學校絕對有存在它的價值它對整個臺灣培育人才貢獻良多所以不管公私立方面我們私校絕對可以"},{"start":10379.901,"end":10399.8,"text":"但是我們一直在談到國家很多的國家對但是我們看不到教育的國家對不管洪文凱、洪委員提到他個人還不曉得未來的解決方案是在哪邊他還提到涉及各個層面所以絕對不是教育部一個部門可以解決的所以面臨這樣挑戰我覺得今天就在解決問題"},{"start":10404.945,"end":10421.002,"text":"私立學校不管從哪一個層級我們面臨到兩大問題一個錢跟人的問題所以今天我們可以看到為之在談到所謂產業有五缺我們私校也有五缺第一個學朝子化第二經費確實不止"},{"start":10422.423,"end":10438.159,"text":"第三,我們可以看到現在很多國高中老師他的合格老師是不足的意願性不高的缺少自主性跟學用落差另外,私立經營裡面面臨到六個困境第一個,生源不足大家都知道但有一些人提到"},{"start":10438.519,"end":10439.579,"text":"教育部新武專"},{"start":10467.646,"end":10483.812,"text":"三價的部分我覺得針對這一塊我們可以得到很多的一些對社會問題的解決第三個各位腳看到我們這幾年的高中出火流血的人數增加的再過來政策不利私校的發展我們知道護國神山"},{"start":10484.452,"end":10485.672,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":10509.48,"end":10509.5,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10531.562,"end":10531.582,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10555.882,"end":10584.121,"text":"他必須由政府去買單所以這裡面就加重的部分所以變成一個惡性循環再過來我們面臨到三轉三失的部分那當然我必須肯定部裡面他為了解決各個學校的退場包括我們剛剛中任秦忠董事長所提的他們真的是看到過程所以我用COVID-19方面去看到我們局需這樣跨部門的整合部分真的欠援我覺得今天就是在一個心力跟防弊"},{"start":10584.961,"end":10608.954,"text":"我們看到絕對不要把私校當作過街老鼠輪的喊打所以今天我是覺得我肯定多以鼓勵跟建議的部分所以最近這幾個面向都是一個正分的部分那這裡面要呼籲的就是當然是立科大成年人行文我們有關新型專班這個部分我們希望A2的部分可以延長因為審核的嚴格進來的時間比較慢所以他可以"},{"start":10611.355,"end":10611.375,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10636.455,"end":10654.643,"text":"這個部分我們希望有兩個面向方面當然這幾個絕對是正面效益的不管從哪個角度我們都希望正面的能夠提供那對各位運動發展條例他可以減稅150但是我們合場不可以上是我個人報告超年輕我也沒希望好 謝謝"},{"start":10659.001,"end":10659.761,"text":"翟靜怡副理事長"},{"start":10679.286,"end":10708.158,"text":"首先非常高興我們今天高教工會放在門口的這個說帖第一個被全部拿光我們看到以後覺得非常的榮幸那也看到很多的先進也都幫我們提出的一些說帖做了很好的summary所以呢我今天的論述可能會非常簡單因為所有的"},{"start":10708.758,"end":10709.879,"text":"我當然希望私立大學可以永續發展"},{"start":10736.313,"end":10755.492,"text":"我當然也歡迎利益良好的企業或財團能夠支持私立大學的成長所以我們是樂見運作良好公開透明的大學能夠得到更多的支持的但是我們在這裡必須要提出我們的憂心"},{"start":10757.573,"end":10772.343,"text":"高教公會作為全力倡議高教公共化的教育團體我們要大聲的疾呼私校法62條目前的修法走向完全會讓有新的財團看到一盤超級好生意成為財團最新的投資方案"},{"start":10781.209,"end":10787.352,"text":"所以我們也可以看到62條的修正如果是照目前的方案通過的話我們可以預見會是一個大型災難的開始"},{"start":10792.978,"end":10794.158,"text":"捐贈私校：免稅：指定捐贈對象"},{"start":10811.763,"end":10822.892,"text":"如果不是的話,我們很難不去想,捐資者除了好心心血可以免稅這個當然的條件之外,他完全沒有任何投資的動機嗎?"},{"start":10827.115,"end":10847.633,"text":"一如在座的朋友們都知道現在的私校治理行政獨裁者大有人在大家很多先進剛才也都談到所謂的懂社會的監督機制難以落實私心處處的所在多有所以高校工會也要強調"},{"start":10849.901,"end":10877.707,"text":"私校的財務報表揭露的程度 遠遠落後於一般的上市公司再加上法規的缺漏之下現在的私校退場可以雙軌制 大家都知道的校方可以自己喊卡停辦改辦這麼大的漏洞我們如何能夠期待在缺乏完整的監管之下私校在得到大筆的捐資之後跟捐資者之間不會有任何的想法嗎"},{"start":10881.088,"end":10902.232,"text":"成上高教公會要再次的強調既然捐助私校要全部比照公校那麼對於私校的監督也要跟上董事會要納入公益董事跟教職員董事我非常希望我有朝一日可以在我服務的學校裡面成為第一位教職員的董事"},{"start":10903.736,"end":10928.844,"text":"並且應該要限制連選連任萬年董事會的狀態所以因此最重要的高教公會提出的修法建議是應該要有所區分如果你要享有全額的免稅那麼捐款請你不要有任何的負條件或者對價關係必須是一種無常的贈與有負條件的sorry不應該享有全額的免稅"},{"start":10930.461,"end":10953.886,"text":"最後我們要強調的是高校公會並不是認為私校不該被扶持而是所有的政策這個要請我們的公部門一定要放在心上所有的政策都要有風險管理的概念跟預判性以及目標管理的有效性在目前私校法62條的"},{"start":10956.967,"end":10957.627,"text":"更重要的是"},{"start":10978.883,"end":11005.351,"text":"我要提問這些做法難道可以解決生源不足的問題嗎我們今天是為了少子化在做一些方案的預備可是我們提出的方法究竟解決了少子化的哪個方向如果你未能解決又帶來巨大危機這種的政策修法高教公會要再次表達強大的憂心跟反對"},{"start":11006.271,"end":11006.992,"text":"雙軌制合法程序大漢技術學院議題"},{"start":11029.383,"end":11054.665,"text":"高教工會在此備註一下大漢技術學院的董事表示都已經給了教師最優渥的一年年至0.5個月的未註金但同樣以私校法退場的道江管理學院是一年一個月最高12個月的未註金請問這是所謂最優渥的安置或未註金嗎而且董事會只派出了一位代表向教職員宣達停辦決議"},{"start":11056.927,"end":11073.042,"text":"並沒有所謂的面對面溝通此外大漢的這種退場的手法將會造成學生被迫轉學錯學而且在學生的說明會中對於學生詢問轉學安置的辦法校長是叫學生自己去找"},{"start":11073.863,"end":11086.957,"text":"自己去問那這種停辦計畫中所謂的將輔導學生轉學原來就是這樣的輔導而已啊當然就是最好的一面鏡子如果有任何需要說明的請跟高教工會聯繫備註2PS2我還有5秒"},{"start":11090.14,"end":11116.096,"text":"我們很希望能夠從企業來的專家學者能夠正式地正視剛才我們提出的風險管理私校的監管不是嘴巴喊一喊就是一塊OKBONG它必須真正表彰在法規的周延配套上高教工會再也不想看到這麼多血淋淋的求助案例是受到私校董事會運作不彰只想掠奪無心辦學所導致的後果謝謝大家"},{"start":11118.984,"end":11119.004,"text":"陳秋瑩"},{"start":11131.653,"end":11151.227,"text":"主席 還有在座教育部的各位長官 還有各位先進大家好我是私校教育產業公會接受會召集人陳秋瑩 我同時目前也服務在中國醫藥大學公衛系其實就今天的這個題目 少子化"},{"start":11152.492,"end":11166.399,"text":"小子女化加劇私校退場如何挽救這個題目我是想要請教其實我覺得如果說我們把命題的方向就是思考錯誤的話也可能會使我們要討論問題的那個焦點失焦那當然也會影響到我們可能要來解決問題的方向"},{"start":11174.764,"end":11202.266,"text":"如果說目前我們花了那麼多時間已經訂定了一個私校退場條例而且呢我們教育部的這些很辛苦的同仁一直就是也很努力的從法案的那個修法到現在已經是在實施了這些符合退場條件不能維護學生社教權跟教師工作權的該退場學校我們為何要挽救呢所以毒化的蘋果為何還要留著吃啊"},{"start":11203.067,"end":11227.791,"text":"我覺得這題目讓我有點小錯愕不過沒關係我們的重點就是說我們要讓這個體系高教體系好嘛所以很重要的是不要把好的蘋果也錯扔了那因為我也知道說在偏鄉有一些很努力辦學的學校他們也受到了那個學校學生啊老師並沒有太多的怨言"},{"start":11228.631,"end":11233.795,"text":"願意共體時間主要還是在生源的問題那等一下再來談辦學品質主要是我還是先想針對我們討論的這個提綱各點去把我們的工會的一些想法表達第一點我先倒過來3加2先等一下講國際產業人才教育專班我們教育部的政策目的我覺得利益是很好的"},{"start":11255.512,"end":11273.539,"text":"他也但是要注意到他絕不該是來挽救應該退場的學校吧他應該是我們當時是希望能夠呢結合我國科技產業人才的需要而去發展的政策啊所以我覺得要分開來思考"},{"start":11274.699,"end":11280.664,"text":"基本上關於退場這件事情教育部跟各位委員們都已經是為我們納稅人跟國民權益把關退場分三部曲從獄警學校專案輔導到退場其實是有一段時間的目前在獄警與專案輔導學校認定輔導監督辦法在去年的7月19日修正完成"},{"start":11296.956,"end":11324.389,"text":"預警的學校是有一段時間被輔導而且免除預警大家可以看到它是有牽涉到說這個辦法裡面的一些相關的條例當然財務上面是一個重點但是我們之後可以再討論這個部分的要點有沒有需要再去考量到辦學品質的指標讓財務上面辦學品質好還是有一個支持"},{"start":11326.03,"end":11340.825,"text":"目前有未符合預警條件的人能好好辦學學校是刻意利用私校法惡意停辦就剛剛提到的大法那這個才是也是我們要防篤的那新型專班這個我們是很支持的只是說"},{"start":11341.886,"end":11367.553,"text":"就是說就如同說我們要國際化那像國外先進國家美國也是有這樣方面的留才的政策那再來就是呢也不要擔心說這個是不是留為業界執訓所我看到我們教育部也相當用心關於說這個產學合作國際專班的申請跟審查作業要點都已經名列在上如果有相關的疑義我是覺得我們應該是要花時間去考再給予"},{"start":11370.734,"end":11398.424,"text":"建設性的建議去思考再給予建設性的建議那再來就是說私校法這個3加2新武裝模式我們很同意我覺得這是一個很好的一個創意的那個措施提供學生多元選擇當然也能夠考量到我國特殊的產業人才的維護例如說水產業質相關學系有些都在相向"},{"start":11399.324,"end":11413.298,"text":"那另外就是他 比較是需要去避免要說那如果是到那個科大那科大如果淪於過於學術那又走向了這個不是在培養我們需要人才的模式所以必須盤點具產業必備的技術人才的師資這些師資與設備是否缺乏"},{"start":11418.763,"end":11419.424,"text":"私校法修法第62條"},{"start":11440.444,"end":11463.615,"text":"就是說對於辦學品質優良但少子化苦苦經營的學校還是有雪中送難協助永續經營的支持的一個方式那這個辦法也符合小女公司資源配置不均的問題不過就是還是要監督避免成為白手套那我們是沒有那麼的擔心只要說能夠有一個監督因為"},{"start":11464.455,"end":11485.951,"text":"條文裏面有提到說基金會監督的機制很重要所以我們支持如果能夠再參考一些在監督上面比較有列明的要點像科委員的版本那政院的版本是可以支持的那辦學品質才是我們的重點剛剛有好幾位上台來發表這樣的一個重點"},{"start":11491.415,"end":11520.229,"text":"建立半學品質的綜合性指標就相當的重要目前大專校院校務資訊公開平台提供學生類、教職類、研究類、校務類、財務類是蠻零散的對大眾而言對學生家長很難從零散數據了解個別學校的半學品質而且目前校務評鑑又比較流於表面我們建議應該要建立一個科學性的數學模式來建立一個綜合性的半學品質指標"},{"start":11522.229,"end":11543.275,"text":"建議加入說關於呈現自身校務發展計畫有關目標是否落實對價值員工薪資福利然後有沒有被檢舉然後後續有改善還有一些社會責任時間結果相關資料數據指標在內那指標雖建立好也是比賽要公平比如說剛剛有提到公私校大家要"},{"start":11543.795,"end":11544.175,"text":"楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":11576.771,"end":11600.221,"text":"謝謝主席 非常感謝主席召開今年的公聽會我也特別要感謝所有的專家、教授、學者跟團體領袖一起來共同的討論因為我們知道從2014年開始到現在我們已經有15所的私立大專院校走向退場那麼兩校都已經合併停辦"},{"start":11601.421,"end":11601.641,"text":"全台103所私校"},{"start":11618.334,"end":11642.6,"text":"但是如果以每一所每一年我們大概統計有17萬7千名的新生那有八成的學生呢也就是12萬人會去選擇公立學校那剩下的5到6萬呢那麼在50所的私立學校正常運作大概這個數額但是我們看到到了2028年的時候我們至少會有40所私校要面臨倒閉"},{"start":11643.72,"end":11657.296,"text":"或者是要轉型的命運因此我們必須要超前部署來拿出解方所以不少的私立學校的大學教授他選擇性到公立或者是到產業或者是其他的途徑"},{"start":11661.921,"end":11662.461,"text":"政府必須提出疑慮"},{"start":11680.666,"end":11700.681,"text":"拿出事後的一個補救不是如此我們應該要積極的去研議它的原因提出預防性的對策這是我特別要提出那麼我們也看到了目前退場學校的體質可以說目前都是以私立學校私立職職院校那麼學生不斷的在揍錢那麼財務危機自然它會浮上台面上來"},{"start":11707.446,"end":11714.533,"text":"如果又被教育部列入專案的輔導名單那等於遭受判死刑了所以目前教育部雖然有提出3加2雖然有提出3加2新5專的模式也就是讓高職跟科技大學來合作"},{"start":11727.504,"end":11750.332,"text":"國中畢業生他前三年在高職來就讀以後的兩年到科大去就讀那學生可以取得到雙連學位來減輕這個招生的壓力但是我們也看到這樣子的執行面向也就是畢業後只能夠取到一個副學士那這樣子在整個幼嬰似乎還是不夠的"},{"start":11752.233,"end":11755.956,"text":"學會取得與未來學校與產業必須接軌這也是我們在嚴厲考慮的時候要怎麼樣將它考量進去教育部要趕快拿出完整的計畫同時落實對於整個公私立學校"},{"start":11769.045,"end":11792.167,"text":"捐贈的抵稅額的衡平改善私立學校募款的困難我們就想你捐給公立學校全額可以去列舉扣除額那為什麼私立不行呢這個邏輯也很奇怪所以本席也提出私立學校第62條條文的修正草案也就是使個人以及營利事業透過薪學基金"},{"start":11793.509,"end":11803.516,"text":"會指定與非指定捐款給學校的法人者 皆得全數作為獵取扣除額或獵為費用或損失希望藉這樣提高捐款的意願 來健全學校的發展"},{"start":11811.261,"end":11822.127,"text":"但是教育部也要有 也要加強這個監管的力道這個也必須要均衡 要橫頻避免出現人模不章的這個狀態就證明現在大專院校裡頭 如果你是單一學區的那你當然就是以你現有學校的人力 可以來做會計 兼任"},{"start":11835.074,"end":11854.289,"text":"但是你如果是多元的兩個以上的這個分校那你就是必須要外聘的會計制度以達到監督的一個公平性所以本席也看到在去年教委委員會裡頭也提出少子化的浪潮那麼怎麼樣協助我們整個私立的大專院校"},{"start":11855.009,"end":11856.911,"text":"推動維護辦學品質﹑保障師生權益一年過去了本期希望施立學校退場的危機是教育"},{"start":11877.409,"end":11878.27,"text":"政府必須全面挽救"},{"start":11903.144,"end":11903.905,"text":"若式的教育產業"},{"start":11919.261,"end":11919.281,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11946.21,"end":11955.675,"text":"對於我從這以來我一直說投資教育希望永遠在尤其我們台中市政府的預算我們一年大概2300億的預算我們100塊就有40塊用在教育所以我們現在教育經濟的編列"},{"start":11961.638,"end":11961.658,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11977.13,"end":11981.053,"text":"請政府務必要提出怎麼樣讓我們的學校可以更加的安心教育我們的孩子快樂成長 謝謝"},{"start":12005.563,"end":12006.747,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瑛委員接下來我們有請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":12020.013,"end":12034.996,"text":"謝謝主席那謝謝現場的這個先進大家好那今天這個題目因為題綱非常的多所以我想今天跟大家討論是我們在引入國際化的人才的時候要如何去確保我們的教育品質與學生的權益那"},{"start":12036.137,"end":12054.763,"text":"台灣的私立學校尤其是即職學校面臨了生存的壓力所以引進了非常多的一個東南亞的僑生來維持運作所以透過3加4的產學攜手合作的僑生專班呢試圖來穩定我們的註冊率來達成國家培育國際人才的目標但是呢現在我想大家也看到最近有非常多的報導"},{"start":12055.703,"end":12082.694,"text":"在講述說許多的記者學校為了提升註冊率過度依賴僑生招生之後與東南亞的仲介公司掛鉤在利益驅動之下甚至來收取人頭費以剝削的手段吸引更多僑生來到台灣使得學生成為學校經營的父母可是這些僑生往往都是來自經濟不佳的家庭他們是懷抱著賺取"},{"start":12084.214,"end":12111.258,"text":"懷抱著學習以及賺取生活費的夢想而來但面對高額的學費以及生活成本逐漸成為了一個剝削的對象所以我們應該要來加強私校與仲介的合作一個監督的機制可以要求我希望教育部可以來要求學校公開仲介資料並且對其定期審查杜絕以高額仲介費來賺取利益的行為那目前呢橋委會其實已經開始了逐步修正政策"},{"start":12111.758,"end":12130.577,"text":"如果發現學校與眾界掛鉤或眾界干涉招生程序的話將會暫停或取消該校的資格那我也建議這樣子的一個規範應該要更加的嚴格那是否教育部可以來研議東南亞來設立直接的招生窗口以免減少這個眾界的一個角色"},{"start":12131.258,"end":12131.598,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":12149.716,"end":12176.395,"text":"也讓這些學生變成了廉價的勞動力而不是學習的一個主體那甚至前陣子報導者的新聞還有講學校扣取了他們的護照限制他們的人身自由所以我希望當我們要讓這些學生來到台灣的時候我們還是要保障他的受教權在學習的實習的過程之中學得專業的技能而不只是廉價的勞動力所以教育部希望可以"},{"start":12176.795,"end":12177.235,"text":"最後一個部分想要跟大家強調"},{"start":12194.93,"end":12218.463,"text":"我過去也曾經是國外的留學生英國的留學生當我們在國外的時候我們可能會面對到語言文化等等非常多的衝擊那如果說這些學生呢來到當我們在那邊的時候其實我們會需要一些協助所以我是希望說我們教育部跟僑委會是不是可以有更多的支持機制來提供僑生生活與心理的輔導並且要求學校設立專責的單位來處理"},{"start":12220.424,"end":12220.504,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":12249.159,"end":12249.519,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":12268.687,"end":12268.847,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12291.078,"end":12313.891,"text":"總結來說,國際產業人才專班的設立本來是應該要幫助私立技職學校在少子化的挑戰中找到生存之道並且為國家找到專業的人才尤其現在專業的人才是國際競爭每個國家都提出了相當好的一個政策跟利多來吸引更多的學生所以我們如果只有放任我們的僑生專班以一種經濟資源的方式來存在追求了短期的效益"},{"start":12314.591,"end":12314.631,"text":"主席"},{"start":12345.095,"end":12345.276,"text":"張雅玲議員"},{"start":12365.13,"end":12388.818,"text":"謝謝主席還有謝謝今天與會的這個許多的專家跟先進提供了這個很多的建議還有這些提出的問題這種都會帶回到教育部再繼續的研議讓這個政策可以做得更好那我想我們也藉這個機會來可能我覺得大概這個很多的這個先進在提的意見我也看到說有一些誤解我想也趁這個機會來跟大家做個說明"},{"start":12392.259,"end":12392.459,"text":"學生護照被扣管"},{"start":12412.569,"end":12430.545,"text":"這件事情我想我們要藉這個機會做一個澄清教育部從在109年的時候就已經規定說我們的大專院校是不能代管任何的證照這個學生的境外生的任何證照所以這件事情在大學在科大是完全沒有發生的"},{"start":12431.546,"end":12445.005,"text":"新闻提到是高中职的乔生专班,这个部份的主管部会是乔委会,就我们的了解,乔委会近年来在这件事情上也都在很积极的在做"},{"start":12447.148,"end":12447.168,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12468.277,"end":12468.497,"text":"學費補助學費補助"},{"start":12488.971,"end":12515.592,"text":"從學生的角度不管是高中職的學生或五專的學生他們的學費都是零因為是政府補助之後他們都是零學費所以看那個金額的差別為什麼說好像說高中職的學費的補助比較高一學期多了五千塊然後這個五專比較少主要的原因是因為高中職的學費因為這十年來因為這個人事成本的提高所以高中職的學費是有提升的是有調學費"},{"start":12516.573,"end":12516.593,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":12551.154,"end":12569.44,"text":"三加二,我父親是科大的教職員,我過去二十幾年的人生都是在科大的宿舍長大,整天在科大到處跑,所以我對技職很有感情"},{"start":12571,"end":12598.703,"text":"這個一進來教育部之後我其實去到處我們去很多的科大去看那我跟各位報告其實我真的覺得我們很多科大真的做得很好而且我覺得就是我覺得我們這個台灣社會有一個一個既定的印象我覺得是很錯誤的就覺得好像說就是公立的最好國立最好其實我們現在看到很多私立科大都做得很好我舉個例子像這個比如像這個龍華科大他這個最近跟這個諸哈隆功大學在簽一些合作這個是泰國"},{"start":12599.884,"end":12599.904,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12617.811,"end":12621.695,"text":"副學士副學士副學士副學士副學士副學士副學士副學士副學士副學士"},{"start":12636.844,"end":12665.941,"text":"三加二只是說三加二其實他是三加二之後他要再加二加二N或是什麼這個其實都是有彈性我們只是覺得我們要給孩子這個這個自由來選擇不是有的孩子他三加二之後他拿到副學士他就想先去工作那我們覺得這也很好我們讓他有一個機會可以出去但是如果他三加二之後他說不要我想要再把學士念完他可以直接加二那或者是說他覺得說我要邊工作"},{"start":12666.601,"end":12667.782,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":12693.601,"end":12694.542,"text":"文化委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12714.455,"end":12714.475,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12729.172,"end":12729.232,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12748.007,"end":12776.713,"text":"與其讓我的孩子在高中花那麼多時間補習準備這個升學考試我寧可讓我的孩子可以更這個適才適性的去做學習那這個是3加2那另外一個呢也提一下因為剛才也很多的這個委員還有這些先進很關心的一件事情就是說這個技高的這個會不會過這個技職會不會太學術化我覺得正是因為這個樣子才我們才要推3加2因為"},{"start":12777.513,"end":12799.747,"text":"過去就是因為高職唸個這個第一年第二年之後就開始準備統測又開始為了準備考試而升學的這個準備考試這個使得我們的技高太學術化所以3加2正式就是要讓他們不要再把這個焦點都放在準備考試這個學術化這件事情才有機會被改變"},{"start":12801.868,"end":12806.252,"text":"科大反映這個產業的變化跟上這個產業的速度是非常非常快的因為他們培養的學生是直接進入到產業反而是技高的老師他相對於科大來講"},{"start":12826.491,"end":12850.598,"text":"沒有那麼直接的面對到產業跟社會的改變所以這也是為什麼3加2我們要讓科大跟高職技高能夠變成要合作變成命運共同體因為科大只有當科大跟高職有更緊密的合作的時候科大看到世界的變化對產業的變化他才能夠更早的帶進來技高讓技高能夠更進一步的跟上世界的變化"},{"start":12851.698,"end":12853.959,"text":"新型專班的經費來源是來自於企業,來自其他國家。教育部沒有任何經費進入到辦公室。"},{"start":12875.39,"end":12875.41,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12896.727,"end":12923.063,"text":"因為業界有些中小企業對他們來講這個補助非常是比較辛苦的所以怎麼樣能夠更大規模招募到好的程度的學生這一塊我們新政府上任之後我們也跟教育部很積極的跟經濟部談了一個新的合作的方案也就是說除了是產業的backup support之外經濟部如果覺得這個學生這個能力很不錯然後跟"},{"start":12923.643,"end":12923.663,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12947.987,"end":12976.793,"text":"更有保障更不會說擔心說這個會不會有一些什麼勞動權益的這個受損的問題最後我想再一次感謝提一下私校法的62條這一部分從教育部的角度我們看到民間其實有非常多的資源民間很多人對教育是關心的所以怎麼樣讓民間有更多的資源願意導入到教育的這個部分這是我們教育部非常"},{"start":12977.173,"end":12978.534,"text":"教育及文化委員會"},{"start":12999.174,"end":13017.16,"text":"這個部分我們會非常重視說跟財政部未來要一起來擬定辦法說怎麼樣來查核監管監督管理我想這個是我們這個教育部非常重視的一件事情所以以上非常謝謝大家我們會把今天大家的意見帶回去教育部研議我想謝謝大家 謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":13018.841,"end":13034.251,"text":"謝謝葉次長的回覆我想主席在這裡最後說一些歸納因為剛才我還在想說葉次長的回覆已經到尾聲了還沒有提到62條私校法62條其實我們有很多版本包括行政院也有提出版本來"},{"start":13036.772,"end":13037.493,"text":"財政部﹚教育部﹚教文委員會﹚"},{"start":13057.359,"end":13080.008,"text":"新型專班新型專班教育部跟勞動部還是要進行一個橫向的會商包含我們司長在這裡這一點我們要去看看過去有一些避病的地方或是有一些未盡之處我們會後也要跟勞動部多會商那最後我想就是新型五專的模式這個模式因為很新應該也是葉司長提出來的"},{"start":13081.209,"end":13109.331,"text":"但今天看起來我覺得大家對於這個3加2再加2這個政策其實大概是有接受度的不過呢我覺得還是要延續本期之前在委員會提出的質詢就是說如果是一個值得適行的政策或是一個好的政策那麼說明很重要就像我們學習歷程檔案上路的時候或者以前我們12年國家上路的時候我們都有輔導團跟說明團但是現在3加2加也好什麼幾加幾 幾加幾 N多的"},{"start":13111.112,"end":13125.369,"text":"所以我覺得是不是要讓我們這個即職教育上的學生老師跟家長他能理解他才知道怎麼去做屬於他最好的選擇所以這裡我還是要必須要求教育部是不是可以趕快去成立即職專案的一個輔導團"},{"start":13126.65,"end":13147.907,"text":"全國走透透,這個輔導團的這個成員競速把它組起來,然後怎麼樣把這個好的政策下去做說明,這個要記得要做所以我想最後就是這麼講,就是說我想任何一個制度在設計的時候,其實我們的原因就是為了要解決問題那但是第一個不能倉促上路,那第二個怎麼落實執行,怎麼去做一個防弊的規範"},{"start":13148.707,"end":13148.908,"text":"公聽會 公聽會 公聽會 公聽會"},{"start":13166.61,"end":13181.579,"text":"一出席者所提供正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考那我們會把各位發言的意見及所有書面的資料"},{"start":13183.82,"end":13204.295,"text":"中和歸納 會編成冊 送交本院全體委員及所有出席的貴賓今天非常感謝大家播出寶貴的時間參與今天的公聽會你們所提的所有寶貴的意見未來我想不管是教育部或是我們在立法院的相關修法都是非常重要的依據謝謝大家今天我們公聽會到這裡結束感謝"},{"start":13212.627,"end":13213.45,"text":"這個我們現在正在辦那個"}]}},{"id":"156529","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156529","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d81bbc207ea3a1294ec98f8113ce54f74a2450328f9194eb48c09dfcc218e895f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"10:01:13 - 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其實這個不是只有你們的問題啊盧天寧也是這樣 一紙公文叫人家走路蔡黃郎也是這樣 一紙公文叫人家走路不是只有不是只有你國營會那國營會 市長您擔任國營會這麼久我不相信你們過去在處理人事是這樣子處理的你們過去處理人事是這樣處理的嗎我可以請國營市長"},{"start":336.448,"end":354.663,"text":"董事長跟委員報告我們事實上現在處理大概都是我們收到行政院公文以後我們會給公司有一段安排董事會的時間所以絕對不會是當天我們會等到公司已經把董事會的時間確定出來跟董事長報告怎麼安排以後我們再發公文"},{"start":355.263,"end":381.696,"text":"這樣才可以確保公司不會沒有董事長而用代理的方式所以看起來雖然公文可能是前兩天拿到但是原來的董事會跟董事長都已經提前知道否則我們不會安排這個時間因為這樣子如果不把董事會安排好他就可能會有七、八天的時間這個公司是沒有董事長的所以我們現在這個處理方式大概是這樣確定你們是這樣處理嗎?不會,對我們都有先跟公司那個市長我如果再問下去齁你們真的會很難堪啊"},{"start":382.316,"end":409.207,"text":"我再問下去真的是打執政黨一個大巴掌很多國營事業我講了我對你用什麼人我沒有意見但我對於你不懂得尊重這件事情我非常有意見我們今天要討論這個這個主席安排的議程要討論這個加薪啊要討論這些東西如果說政府部門自己連基本的尊重都做不到"},{"start":410.575,"end":437.614,"text":"你不要跟我談說你的施政會多有效果啦明星都不在啦郭董事長您在當董事長的時候應該不會這樣治理公司吧您說你要把你治理公司那一套拿來治理經濟部您治理公司的時候不會這樣子吧這個是讓我覺得最痛心的地方啊接二連三這一個多月來國營事業的人事汰換"},{"start":439.158,"end":464.932,"text":"我必須再一次講我覺得你們對於基本的尊重都沒有我真的看到台船總經理這個照片我真的內心非常非常非常的難過在台船工作了52年竟然被你們一紙公文就這樣子掃地出門你叫台船公司的員工如何對這個公司盡心盡力呢"},{"start":466.653,"end":493.531,"text":"你叫中油公司的員工如何對這個公司盡心盡力呢只要一紙公文就可以讓人家滾蛋啊你叫這些人如何為公司賣命呢如果你的從業集團你也是這樣子對待員工的話這些人如何為你的公司賣命這麼簡單的道理嗎你今天要講加薪如果待人不能待薪的話"},{"start":496.165,"end":518.333,"text":"這個國家的治理是會很有問題的啊我不知道一個治理企業的部長來到了經濟部之後反而是這樣子對待國營事業的董監事、董事長如此處理國營事業的人士我後面的東西我也不想問了謝謝委員 這個部門我們會深刻檢討我覺得你們最尊重這兩個字 完全不懂是 我們會回去檢討"},{"start":526.513,"end":526.676,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"156559","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156559","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7de2e33a6653b2d4bdbb32fa75c598af442e72fbbb48a4d1eea913c6d79a6ea1625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:51:19 - 11:56:58","影片長度":"00:05:39","會議時間":"2024-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「少子女化加劇私校退場，如何挽救?」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-06","start_time":"2024-11-06T11:51:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-06T11:56:58+08:00","duration":339,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":69.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.87659375,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.46721875,"end":180.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.76221875000002,"end":212.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.55034375000002,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.89596875,"end":272.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.35096875,"end":328.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.73034375000003,"end":332.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.41346875000005,"end":339.97784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.039,"end":20.105,"text":"謝謝主席 那謝謝現場的這個先進 大家好 那今天這個題目因為題綱非常的多 所以我想今天跟大家討論是我們在引入國際化的人才的時候 要如何去確保我們的教育品質與學生的權益"},{"start":22.146,"end":40.789,"text":"台灣的私立學校尤其是即職學校面臨了生存的壓力所以引進了非常多的一個東南亞的僑生來維持運作所以透過3加4的產學攜手合作的僑生專班呢試圖來穩定我們的註冊率來達成國家培育國際人才的目標但是呢現在我想大家也看到最近有非常多的報導"},{"start":41.71,"end":68.718,"text":"在講述說 許多的暨子學校為了提升註冊率過度的依賴僑生招生之後與東南亞的仲介公司掛鉤在利益驅動之下甚至來收取人頭費以剝削的手段吸引更多的僑生來到台灣使得學生成為學校經營的父母可是這些僑生往往都是來自於經濟不佳的家庭他們是懷抱著賺取"},{"start":70.218,"end":97.26,"text":"懷抱著學習以及賺取生活費的夢想而來但面對高額的學費以及跟生活成本逐漸成為了一個剝削的對象所以我們應該要來加強私校與仲介的合作一個監督的機制可以要求我希望教育部可以來要求學校公開仲介資料並且對其定期審查杜絕以高額仲介費來賺取利益的行為那目前呢橋委會其實已經開始了逐步修正政策"},{"start":97.76,"end":123.339,"text":"如果發現學校與眾界掛鉤或眾界干涉招生程序的話將會暫停或取消該校的資格那我也建議這樣子的一個規範應該要更加的嚴格那是否教育部可以來研議東南亞來設立直接的招生窗口以免減少這個眾界的一個角色那再來就是說其實當這些學生來到台灣之後呢其實我們也沒有有些學校也沒有提供他一個很好的教育資源"},{"start":124.58,"end":124.72,"text":"張雅琳 張雅琳"},{"start":154.66,"end":179.313,"text":"在實習的過程之中學得專業的技能而不只是廉價的勞動力所以教育部希望可以制定更為嚴格的一個實習的原則來規範學習的時間跟實習的內容讓他產學可以真正的結合那這樣子他未來才有可能成為國家未來可以使用的人才那最後一個部分想要來跟大家強調其實"},{"start":180.954,"end":204.487,"text":"我過去也曾經是國外的留學生英國的留學生當我們在國外的時候我們可能會面對到語言文化等等非常多的衝擊那如果說這些學生呢來到當我們在那邊的時候其實我們會需要一些協助所以我是希望說我們教育部跟僑委會是不是可以有更多的支持機制來提供僑生生活與心理的輔導並且要求學校設立專責的單位來處理"},{"start":206.488,"end":207.008,"text":"教育及文化委員會：張雅琳"},{"start":235.229,"end":235.529,"text":"公聽會：張雅琳"},{"start":264.604,"end":272.632,"text":"針對於屢次被檢舉的學校 僑委會應該要果斷取消專班的資格 來達到一個震懾的效果"},{"start":277.084,"end":299.895,"text":"總結來說,國際產業人才專班的設立本來是應該要幫助私立技職學校在少子化的挑戰中找到生存之道並且為國家找到專業的人才尤其現在專業的人才是國際競爭每個國家都提出了相當好的一個政策跟利多來吸引更多的學生所以我們如果只有放任我們的僑生專班以一種經濟資源的方式來存在追求了短期的效益"},{"start":300.635,"end":300.755,"text":"主席"},{"start":331.523,"end":339.538,"text":"好 謝謝張雅琳委員的發言我跟我們今天公聽會大家報告我們所有的專家學者我們的委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"156556","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156556","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7ddabc52e10e0db7c4bb32fa75c598af442e72fbbb48a4d1eec29c834b6071bf875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:43:52 - 11:51:10","影片長度":"00:07:18","會議時間":"2024-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「少子女化加劇私校退場，如何挽救?」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-06","start_time":"2024-11-06T11:43:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-06T11:51:10+08:00","duration":438,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.852218750000002,"end":352.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.65096875,"end":436.80659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.235,"end":33.688,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊瓔發言非常感謝主席召開今年的公聽會我也特別要感謝所有的專家、教授、學者跟團體領袖一起來共同的討論因為我們知道從2014年開始到現在我們已經有15所的私立大專院校走向退場那麼兩校都已經合訂停辦"},{"start":34.888,"end":35.349,"text":"市立公會理事長吳理事長"},{"start":51.781,"end":75.816,"text":"但是如果以每一所每一年我們大概統計有17萬7千名的新生那有八成的學生呢也就是12萬人會去選擇公立學校那剩下的5到6萬呢那麼在50所的私立學校正常運作大概這個數額但是我們看到到了2028年的時候我們至少會有40所私校要面臨倒閉"},{"start":76.817,"end":95.128,"text":"楊瓊瓔議員"},{"start":95.368,"end":95.408,"text":"主席"},{"start":114.133,"end":138.93,"text":"拿出事後的一個補救不是如此我們應該要積極的去研議它的原因提出預防性的對策這是我特別要提出那麼我們也看到了目前退場學校的體質可以說目前都是以私立學校私立學校私立技職院校那麼學生不斷的在奏剪那麼財務危機自然它會浮上台面上來"},{"start":140.911,"end":147.977,"text":"如果又被教育部列入專案的輔導名單那等於遭受判死刑了所以目前教育部雖然有提出3加2雖然有提出3加2新5專的模式也就是讓高職跟科技大學來合作"},{"start":160.968,"end":165.153,"text":"國中畢業生他前三年在高職來就讀以後的兩年到科大去就讀那學生可以取得到雙連學位來減輕這個招生的壓力但是我們也看到這樣子的執行面向"},{"start":176.866,"end":201.969,"text":"也就是畢業後只能夠取到一個副學士那這樣子在整個誘因似乎還是不夠的所以隨後的取得跟未來學校與產業必須要去接軌這也是我們在嚴厲考慮的時候要怎麼樣將它考量進去教育部要趕快的拿出完整的計畫同時落實對於整個公私立學校"},{"start":202.489,"end":206.05,"text":"本席提出私立學校第62條條文的修正草案也就是使個人以及營利事業透過薪學基金"},{"start":226.415,"end":230.961,"text":"會指定與非指定捐款給學校的法人者 皆得全數作為獵取扣除額或獵為費用或損失希望藉這樣提高捐款的意願 來健全學校的發展"},{"start":244.719,"end":266.704,"text":"但是教育部也要有 也要加強這個監管的力道這個也必須要均衡 要橫頻避免出現人模不章的這個狀態就證明現在大專院校裡頭 如果你是單一學區的那你當然就是以你現有學校的人力 可以來做會計 兼任"},{"start":268.504,"end":268.524,"text":"公聽會：楊瓔"},{"start":288.453,"end":290.375,"text":"推動維護辦學品質﹑保障師生權益一年過去了本期希望施立學校退場的危機是教育"},{"start":310.874,"end":335.39,"text":"的非常重要的困境 重要因此 這個我們是必須要去面對所以連帶整個學校你怎麼轉型 教師要怎麼轉業 學生轉校以及學校失能 流浪教師 還有失聯的學生等這些現象都必須要全面性的去做討論 所以我要求政府必須要全面性的挽救"},{"start":336.411,"end":337.172,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":352.585,"end":378.814,"text":"楊瓊瓔"},{"start":379.655,"end":407.096,"text":"對於我從這以來我一直說投資教育希望永遠在尤其我們台中市政府的預算我們一年大概2300億的預算我們100塊就有40塊用在教育所以我們現在教育金融編列的基準法裡頭現在是22.5%為基準我本席也提案希望能夠提升到24%全力的真正的投資教育希望永遠在"},{"start":408.197,"end":436.005,"text":"因為我認為只有教育做好觀念做好倫理做好這個社會就是一個有競爭力而且是一個宜居的這個城市更是一個強而有力的國家所以我非常的希望透過這樣子的公聽會也聽聽專家學者教授大家寶貴的意見我們好好的請政府務必要提出怎麼樣讓我們的學校可以更加的安心教育我們的孩子快樂成長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d96959f3ca4ced94f080dcbcec04735dd2c044381949e2fb0c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:53:31 - 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謝謝主席 楊瓊好局長好 我想請問南北韓緊張情勢升溫那10月15號突然來一個南北韓的經義縣東海縣那連結鐵路、公路引發了南韓實際的一個反制涉及那據聞韓聯社也報導北韓已經有修改憲法正式將南韓列為敵對的國家所以在這樣的情況之下請教局長"},{"start":40.333,"end":63.786,"text":"那麼南北韓如果真打起來,周邊的國家勢必大家都會有牽扯在這樣的情況之下,我們怎麼樣去應對近期緊張的這個局勢,怎麼樣保障我們的安全呢?對,跟委員做個報告跟說明,那現階段我們在評估北韓對外的挑釁,認為是一個威懾的動作還不是要進入正式起戰的階段,還沒有,那他會在這個階段,對,恐嚇、恫嚇"},{"start":69.89,"end":94.01,"text":"主要是因為美國跟日本還有韓國這幾個月的那個安保軍事的合作變得越來越緊密那也進行了非常多的軍事演習那讓北韓有感受到壓力他必須要有一些回擊那二來是因為美國大選那北韓也希望在選前有這些挑釁的動作來累積到他選後跟美國新政府不管是哪一位上台相關溝通跟協商的籌碼對"},{"start":97.212,"end":113.536,"text":"主要是希望能夠透過這些動作讓美國新總統可以正視到北韓的問題那後續也可以在讓北韓在磋商過程當中可以讓美方不要再對北韓進行經濟的制裁那也能夠來承認北韓已經擁有核武跟導彈的一個地位的一個身份"},{"start":114.316,"end":135.56,"text":"本席聽到局長你的說法也就是我方也嚴正以待清楚目前的樣態到底是如何當然你剛才所說的是我方的認知但是我們還是要謹慎以對因為我們國家最重要的就是一定要安全知己知彼百戰百勝好謝謝繼續持續的關注我們會持續跟周邊友好國家針對朝鮮半島的動態"},{"start":143.182,"end":154.535,"text":"對,區域的情勢,我們會交換情質來掌控。對,局長公好,請國人放心。那接下來我要請教,也就是AI隨著Google等這些跨國企業,那麼同時呢,在我們本席要請教,針對於AI技術,"},{"start":158.038,"end":181.276,"text":"這個武器化衍生的新興挑戰我相信國安局你們也強力的跟世界來接軌那同時在AI資源情報作業的能力我們要怎麼樣有效的去防範淺蠢的這些國安的一個資料外洩也好的風險或者是我們的國安的這個威脅呢"},{"start":182.313,"end":194.724,"text":"對,這確實是一個很重要的問題,因為AI技術的運用,它不管在發動資安的攻擊,它會變得越來越快速,甚至是無差別的來攻擊。而且可以透過AI來散發這種爭議的訊息,來擾亂我們的民心。所以對於這種AI技術運用在傳統的戰場上,或是資安,或是爭議訊息的戰場上,我們都有密切的在關注。"},{"start":204.974,"end":208.535,"text":"我們本局又成立相關AI研發的一個團隊那來針對AI的應用用AI來因應AI的威脅那是我們目前在努力的方向因為我們透過AI還是可以去找出網路上你說你們成立這樣子的一個團隊是什麼時候成立的?"},{"start":224.642,"end":229.403,"text":"去年就成立了,而且成立完之後,我們成立的同時,我們還有通過我們內部的發展AI的相關的作業規範。也就是說AI會帶來很多的便利性,但它可能也有一些風險,要小心怎麼竊密。所以北界主體建議,一定要滾動式去討論,有的新的技術怎麼樣圍堵,有的新的技術我們怎麼樣去接軌,這是非常重要的。謝謝委員來提醒我們。"}]}},{"id":"156524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7dbc419874560b1119bb32fa75c598af44c60b9d8b43f1d7f731947d3c5364f5145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:42:06 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歐洲也好其實有很多的大專院校或說有很多的學生他其實他一開始他就覺得說他要進入的是哪幾所 技職學校"},{"start":278.351,"end":278.671,"text":"公聽會：洪孟楷"},{"start":306.191,"end":320.487,"text":"縮士博士生所以這一點也是我們在想說如果說我們真的要推動我們要重新拾回即職教育的部分教育部能不能有這樣的一個目標跟雄心壯志那再者我想拉回來最後還是要強調"},{"start":321.408,"end":347.542,"text":"因為今天的這個公聽會裡面有幾個議題其中也有是希望支援計職教育擴大生源跟吸引學生選擇計職教育那其中擴大生源的部分大家也都提到是有目前會有一些外籍生的部分那我們必須一而再再提醒絕對不要在台灣的社會裡面真的再出現所謂外籍生變成是學工的一個醜聞"},{"start":348.362,"end":348.522,"text":"公聽會議員：洪孟楷"},{"start":375.46,"end":395.551,"text":"教育人員都能夠持續下去但是真的有些時候一顆老鼠死壞了一鍋粥我們努力了好幾年但是只要出現一個學工的醜聞或是只要出現一個對於外籍生不利的醜聞對於我們台灣的國際地位也好對於我們的高等教育也好對於我們的私校也好"},{"start":395.911,"end":420.933,"text":"其實都是一個很大的打擊所以這一點也是為什麼提出來是希望源頭管理教育部身為主管機關就要針對這個部分防範於未來我們寧可是多加強集合多加強管理而不要等到事情發生爆發之後而造成社會大眾對於外籍生活對於學校的這樣的一個不信任或者是這樣的一個"},{"start":422.694,"end":422.915,"text":"公聽會：洪孟楷"},{"start":441.155,"end":470.246,"text":"我現在目前為止還沒有答案但是我們面臨到真的是很嚴峻高齡化、少子化以及我們整體的一個經濟的相關發展我們都希望面臨選擇的時候唯有就是大家更群策群力讓我們後續在第一線不管是修法的過程當中一定會聆聽大家的建議我們適時的來改進希望讓我們台灣社會越來越好再次感謝大家"}]}},{"id":"156526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156526","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d73626c889d998e02bb32fa75c598af44c60b9d8b43f1d7f7617c360b5c5c43e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:50:05 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09:42:00","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2024-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「少子女化加劇私校退場，如何挽救?」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-06","start_time":"2024-11-06T09:34:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-06T09:42:00+08:00","duration":471,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.49471875,"end":104.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.75721875,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.83596875,"end":324.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.89159375,"end":453.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.23846875000004,"end":468.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.25721875000005,"end":470.67471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.8,"end":7.623,"text":"首先謝謝召委辦今天這場跟這個私校的未來有關的公聽會那我想今天現場還有很多學生代表教師公會跟教師代表家長代表還有校長跟私校協會那大家早安謝謝大家遠道而來一起關心私校的未來我想在少子女的影響下我們現在如何維持或提升私校的品質"},{"start":30.136,"end":52.926,"text":"面臨退場的私校又如何化解危機轉型最後不得已的時候如何適當的退場都是我進入立法院之後非常關心的問題今天我們其中有一題是關於技職我其實最近的了解之後我覺得學術型跟技職型的大學資源分配的方式真的可以重新思考"},{"start":53.526,"end":80.635,"text":"那高教師其實可以去思考一下過去用這個一刀切經費一刀切的方式那其實對即職型的學校來講的話就真的資源非常的有限那這是過去傳統的做法那能不能突破這個一刀切個別去看優質的即職學校能不能夠爭取到更多的經費那這我也想請就是我們教育部好好的思考那還有就是我們也接到反應"},{"start":81.015,"end":81.035,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":105.293,"end":111.939,"text":"以上是我對計職這個議題的看法再來以下的發言就針對就是私校的議題我想賴清德總統的政見已經對高校的地圖做了很大的改變我們現場的校長跟老師們應該都會知道公私校的學費差距現在已經不是高中生他要選哪一所大學的一個關鍵反而是一個私校的品質"},{"start":134.056,"end":134.996,"text":"私校的品質才是關鍵"},{"start":153.763,"end":172.24,"text":"學生選擇私校與否：考慮的已經不是學費了：而是他的未來：還有這個學校的品質談到品質問題我也要講我過去是在公立大學教書進入立法院之後才開始瞭解私立大學有非常非常多的問題當然我們在場很多校長不好意思這邊也點到聖約翰因為那個陳情安是我"},{"start":178.166,"end":178.186,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":194.947,"end":204.578,"text":"德斯利大學﹐譬如說我協助過的中州科大的學功案就是把國際學生當作奴工了都上了國際新聞還有聖約翰環球科大欠老師薪水的部分那這些亂象"},{"start":210.265,"end":210.425,"text":"教育部徵得"},{"start":231.349,"end":248.634,"text":"實習跟移工 她到底是個實習生還是一個國際移工界限模糊我想教育部在監管這些情況下的檢核機制不知道是沒有落實還是太放寬讓私立大學為了要爭取國際學生"},{"start":251.215,"end":251.235,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":269.466,"end":293.993,"text":"開放 用這個民脂民膏 就是稅收來補助那所以我想 高校亂象如何解決 我覺得是一個整體的問題就是私校法 大學法 其實都有必要要好好的檢討 在財務跟治理上面那我一直支持 如果能夠給私校更好的財務支持可是目前的這個亂象 包含私立大學 我想私校工會私立老師都知道"},{"start":294.993,"end":295.293,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":325.354,"end":344.09,"text":"私校的財務的部分我也要提到昨天晚上有讀到代表公司立大學老師的高校工會有針對今天的主題只有發表聲明那強烈的反對那裡面提出的隱憂我其實也希望能夠解決那也希望大家可以閱讀一下一起來思考"},{"start":344.67,"end":345.13,"text":"教育部指揮委員"},{"start":363.359,"end":363.399,"text":"公聽會員：范雲"},{"start":384.305,"end":399.75,"text":"私校法對私校的財產各方面施生權益的保障都不如我們的退場條例這是一個已經出現的漏洞我想我們之前在看到相關的新聞跟接到相關的陳情的時候就非常的遺憾"},{"start":402.031,"end":430.183,"text":"整體高校公共化的目標並沒有真的完成那如何一起努力在高校公共化的目標下一方面鼓勵部分優質的私校讓他有更好的支持也讓他願意主動就是財務公開透明然後有更好的特色然後檢討目前的退場規定比如說我剛要講的就是大漢技術學院自行提出退場"},{"start":431.023,"end":457.264,"text":"私生權益就沒有辦法得到就是進入所謂的預警加護病房的私校退場條例後的保障那我想這個是教育部我想我們次長在這主管那個技術學院的技術高教師等都在那應該要好好的主動去規劃的那我們不能夠等到就是說大量的私生權益不保走上街頭之後我們才頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":459.065,"end":459.186,"text":"主席范雲"}]}},{"id":"16231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16231","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e4b47bc6500708d156425655b8120616f083084566cc2bdb45c7c4760a5ce4ff95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」22案：\n一、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員羅廷瑋等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等7案。\n三、本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員陳玉珍等24人、委員鄭正鈐等21人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」等2案。\n五、本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n八、本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n九、本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【11月4日、6日及7日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-06T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-06T09:03:00+08:00","duration":1980,"影片長度":"00:33:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 - 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表修正草案」案。\n（四）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【第（一）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-06T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-06T10:51:00+08:00","duration":8445,"影片長度":"02:20:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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。"},{"start":2294.801,"end":2309.495,"text":"是在法院組織法第一相關的這個條文那麼這一次的重點在十二條三四條跟五十一條以及六十六條之五跟相關的附表那麼"},{"start":2311.107,"end":2316.128,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具《法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具《法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具"},{"start":2337.835,"end":2339.757,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,以應用及約用方式進行,並修訂檢察署原則表。"},{"start":2353.812,"end":2380.523,"text":"那麼另外關於委員所提那個66條之五跟七十跟相關的這個附表部分那麼這部分修正的方向與本院跟行政院的提案修正檢察官助理的方向是一致的那麼我們也敬表贊同另外翁曉玲委員等人所提出關於法案組織法六十七條跟七十三條的附表那麼希望將"},{"start":2381.883,"end":2399.959,"text":"那個臨床那個地檢署跟分署的關乎人士的臨床心理師修正為心理師使心理系的範圍包括了至上心理師那這部分是涉及到檢查機關的這職權運作那麼我們也是尊重法務部的這意見以上簡單報告請各位委員指教好謝謝那下一位我們麻煩法務部徐政次報告"},{"start":2408.257,"end":2431.706,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生那今天奉邀列席貴委員會來併案審查主要的條文是66條之五以及他七十三條附表修正另外一個是六十七條跟七十三條附表修正草案那就66條之五這是有關於檢察官助理法制化的問題"},{"start":2433.255,"end":2458.246,"text":"本部依照行政院及所屬各機關學校臨時人員禁用及運用要點禁用檢察官助理因為法官助理是依據法院組織法十二條聘用我們的法院依據是沒有的為了使檢察官助理法制化常態化我們已充實檢察機關輔助人力合理分配司法資源"},{"start":2459.826,"end":2467.169,"text":"條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條"},{"start":2481.114,"end":2496.241,"text":"條法院設置整體輔助人力預算原額比例我們是採1比0.4的比例配置檢察官助理來輔助檢察官提升整體工作效能那我們助理的禁用方式是含聘用跟月用"},{"start":2497.759,"end":2521.379,"text":"條文,保留地方檢察署用人的彈性與尊爵人事成本。檢察官助理具有律師職業資格的話,在禁用期間年資可以記錄律師職業年資。有關於檢察官助理的遴選訓練業務、管考等事項,由本部訂定相關辦法,使其業務職權均有依據。"},{"start":2522.62,"end":2542.781,"text":"那有關於六十七條這一個部分那建議這個保護管束人除了社會適應以外還有心理、生理、家庭、人際關係等問題為了防止再犯有轉介心理師提供諮商、輔導及心理治療的必要"},{"start":2544.022,"end":2567.811,"text":"那目前法院組織法六十七條只規定地方檢察署跟檢察分署關乎人是設置臨床心理師沒有納入諮商心理師所以用人機關的需求捉襟見肘為了解決這個問題我們修改相關法律可以涵蓋臨床心理師跟諮商心理師"},{"start":2570.434,"end":2575.811,"text":"我們多數委員對於這一方面修正本部競表同意"},{"start":2580.229,"end":2602.799,"text":"為了強化犯罪偵查效能,避免基層人力過勞,我們已經持續補足檢察官、檢察事務官的缺額。本部對於檢察官、檢察事務官、檢察官助理的人力配置、職長分工及工作負擔,也進行全面檢討評估,也具體規劃重要緣額提考期程。"},{"start":2603.619,"end":2627.78,"text":"以通盤檢討檢查能力以後認為有積極推動檢討官助理法制化的必要希望能夠儘速完成修法。最後本部再次對大院費心修法表達敬佩之意以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝好謝謝那現在我們麻煩全序部法規司廖專門委員報告"},{"start":2647.74,"end":2666.936,"text":"三條附表修正草案。」案。議件是查臨床心理師跟諮商心理師是依照各該類科考試及格分別領有不同職稱的醫師職業證照並且分別辦理心理師法第十三條及十四條所定的業務。而且依照醫事人人事條例以及"},{"start":2668.657,"end":2695.472,"text":"各機關適用醫事人員人事條例職務一覽表的規定,臨床心理師及智商心理師是分別獨立辦理醫事業務的,那沒有合稱心理師這個職務,所以關於地方檢察署及檢察分署關乎人事,如果確實是有需要增置智商心理師的話,建議法院組織法第六十七條的條文可以明確把現行的臨床心理師分別修正為臨床心理師頓號智商心理師,"},{"start":2697.873,"end":2697.973,"text":"以上,謝謝。"},{"start":2719.915,"end":2738.891,"text":"今天的議程我們討論事項並中二根至第四案。閱經一一三年六月二十四日第十一屆第一會期本會第三次全體委員會議審查報告及詢討完畢決議令定期審查所以於今日繼續審查"},{"start":2740.312,"end":2751.037,"text":"為了便利審查,請予提出修正動議或附帶決議的委員,請速將書面送交至主席台,列印應發現場進行討論。現在我們進行討論事項,請議事人員宣讀條文,如果有修正動議附帶決議的一併宣讀,宣讀後請進行討論,請宣讀條文。"},{"start":2766.806,"end":2783.474,"text":"法院組織法部分條文修正草案司法院行政院提案第十二條除第二項第三具中依相關法令聘用後面增訂或約用等文字第三項第二具具首的經聘用修正為依前項規定"},{"start":2784.795,"end":2811.977,"text":"第四項首具中凌聘修正為凌用外其餘未修正。第三十四條除第三項第二具中依相關法令聘用後面增定或約用等文字。第五項第二具具首經聘用修正為依第三項規定外其餘未修正。第五十一條除第三項第二具中依相關法令聘用後面增定或約用等文字。"},{"start":2813.018,"end":2836.458,"text":"第五項手續中經聘用修正為依第三項規定外其餘未修正。第六十六條之五地方檢察署得至檢察官助理依相關法令聘用或約用各種專業人員充任之乘檢察官之命辦理案件程序之審查、法律問題之分析、資料之收集等事務、具律師職業資格者"},{"start":2838.444,"end":2867.947,"text":"一前向規定充任檢察官助理期間紀錄其律師職業年資、檢察官助理之零用、訓練業務、管理及考核等相關事項之辦法,由法務部定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第六十六條之五對照司法院、行政院提案,除第一項前段修正為各級檢察屬於必要時得至檢察官助理,依相關法令聘用各種專業人員充任之第二項第二具具首"},{"start":2869.605,"end":2883.834,"text":"一前項規定修正為經聘用第三項手具中零用修正為零聘具末之辦法等文字三除外其餘同司法院行政院提案委員劉建國等提案第六十六條之五同台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":2889.097,"end":2912.916,"text":"條文中臨床心理師均修正為心理室外其餘未修正四（法院行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員翁曉玲等及委員劉建國等提案修正第七十三條附表均如後赴宣讀完畢好條文已經宣讀完畢現在進行討論請問是否需要進行大體討論"},{"start":2915.243,"end":2938.438,"text":"大家認為不需要,那不需要的話我們就直接進入逐條審查那我們現在有收到修正動議我有提案所以就我們先進行修正動議的宣讀請宣讀"},{"start":2942.654,"end":2968.911,"text":"修正動議依法院組織法修正條文修正動議為第六十七條地方檢察署及檢察分署社關護人士至關護人臨床心理師諮商心理師及作例員關護員在二人以上者至主任關護人在六人以上者得分組辦事組長由關護人兼任不令列等"},{"start":2970.168,"end":2982.641,"text":"第二項中段修正為諮商心理師列施三級其餘同線型條文提案人委員吳宗憲等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3006.437,"end":3013.407,"text":"修正等於一、修正附表、臨床心理師後增列諮商心理師等字宣讀完畢。"},{"start":3033.578,"end":3045.717,"text":"主席,剛主席那個修正動議念完以後,我看是不是也請這個大體,因為這一個條文嘛。"},{"start":3047.239,"end":3064.106,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,請他們回答一下會比較快,那進入主條會比較快啦,你像比如說﹖說委員剛那個代行部分已經過了,他們是說都不用,所以現在已經進入到主條。我那個沒有意見,那差不了幾分鐘,我的意思因為你剛本來我沒意見啦,因為又提了一個修正動議嘛,那我的意思就是說,你像比如說,"},{"start":3067.708,"end":3069.188,"text":"三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":3089.707,"end":3093.111,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具"},{"start":3113.331,"end":3113.752,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":3137.287,"end":3160.229,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件 會不會有這樣的問題?其實之前是心理師嘛對心理師就涵蓋臨床跟諮商之前是只有臨床心理師但是因為後來臨床心理師是來跟我們講說這兩種東西是不一樣的不我要請行政部門說明一下就是說本來叫做心理師心理師本來就涵蓋兩個部分"},{"start":3162.298,"end":3167.46,"text":"三條附表修正草案案件事項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,其中一項為三項,"},{"start":3191.817,"end":3197.181,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,其中一項是法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一項是法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項"},{"start":3217.276,"end":3237.734,"text":"主席委員關於這個部分的話心理師法他第13條跟第14條是分別就臨床心理師以及諮商心理師的業務分別定列那工作內容是完全不一樣的所以必須領有不同的專業證照才能執行不同的業務"},{"start":3238.755,"end":3258.465,"text":"四條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條"},{"start":3267.15,"end":3269.732,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項及其中一項事項及其中一項事項及其中一項事項及其中一項"},{"start":3283.74,"end":3303.071,"text":"那我是不是再請教一下你這樣越講我越糊塗了就是說我們心理司法裡面的規定兩者它的業務範圍是不一樣的你臨床心理師他反而是他的業務他的專業應該是更廣的喔比你心理諮商師還要廣喔"},{"start":3304.351,"end":3330.108,"text":"那現在是變成說原來我們現在的一個設計裡面他的範圍是幾乎我現在是臨床心理師是可以去做心理諮商師的對不對因為他的業務範圍涵蓋他喔所以你們現在又弄一部分出來我的意思是說你們說增加這一個部分規範他的目的最主要是要做什麼"},{"start":3332.742,"end":3357.302,"text":"條文修正草案案案件,也要有您需求啊,立法院幫你們忙,沒有很好的事情啊。這個部分的話有關於說資商心理,就是法院組織法裡面要明定是資商心理師或者是臨床心理師,這兩個部分因為是屬於機關業務用人的部分,究竟有沒有這個需要去偵測資商心理師的話,可能要請法務部這邊就用人的需求來做一個說明。"},{"start":3366.192,"end":3367.773,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3382.905,"end":3410.237,"text":"但是就是說他就是臨床他能做的大概就差在臨床跟諮商最大的差別是在於精神病跟腦部心智功能的心理恆見跟心理治療這臨床可以做諮商是不能做的我想他們最大的差別在這裡那剛才委員所垂詢的就是心理師我覺得他只有法令這個法律的名稱是叫心理師可是在竹條裡面這看不出來心理師這三個字"},{"start":3411.878,"end":3425.94,"text":"三條條文及第十四條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條條文及第十八條文及第十八條文及第十八條"},{"start":3427.122,"end":3455.575,"text":"那我們三年下來包括我們有約用諮商心理師我們運作的情形發現兩個心理師對我們來講都幫助很大不管是臨床也好諮商也好對我們的功能性幫助我們都非常非常的大但是我們考慮到如果說法律只有臨床心理師的話他就受限了那我們將來在偏遠地區像澎湖、金門、馬祖他原額只有零到一人"},{"start":3456.255,"end":3472.983,"text":"那如果說限定說他是臨床心理師的話因為他們目前國內臨床跟諮商是一比二他們人數比較少那如果說限定是在臨床心理師的話我們將來偏遠地區會找不到心理師你現在總緣額多少?你現在總有多少人?我們那個臨床是14個然後那個諮商是16個"},{"start":3482.082,"end":3482.782,"text":"條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條"},{"start":3503.274,"end":3528.592,"text":"三條附表修正草案案案案的策略,就是說我們希望就是不管是臨床心理師或者是智商心理師我們放給地檢署讓他依照他的需求所以今天把他其實我們一開始認為說把他納為一個統稱的心理師其實法務部的立場也可以接受因為他會變成包含兩個可是後來因為全區部的意見我們也採納我們認為說好那我們就正視他這兩個名稱我們都把他納進去"},{"start":3532.475,"end":3555.832,"text":"我今天講這一些我是贊成他們的條文的喔我是贊成今天的修正的一個條文的喔可是我的意思是你們凸顯出一個問題我們上次修的時候你反而修出一個臨床心理師啊你現在跟我講說你們是更需要的心理諮商師啊我們電幹不能亂用嗎不是不是那時候還沒有進入所謂的試用這三年來我們運作的情形發現這兩個對我們的幫助都很大好不好是主席"},{"start":3561.227,"end":3575.462,"text":"其實我是怕你們是不是會壓縮啦如果都是外加的話外加的那就還好你像比如說翁委員或者吳宗憲委員他們可能要的就是說你心理諮商是你人數少啦啊我的想法是假設現在15啦"},{"start":3577.588,"end":3585.512,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件的總額是15,因為我現在有臨床心理師,心理師當時我欠,我欠後我就外加進來,如果是這樣的我就贊成啦。總額是15,你就分七個出來,你給我另外一套,你七個要找一堆。所以我的意思是外加進來。機關可以自己彈性運用。他們也有總緣合法限制,也不是他們愛幾個就幾個。"},{"start":3606.34,"end":3606.54,"text":"條文修正草案 案"},{"start":3625.872,"end":3646.296,"text":"我首先要謝謝莊委員他肯定我的修法一開始就是將臨床心理師改為心理師因為我當時的想法是說心理師這個概念是依照心理師法第一條的規定講的就是心理師包括包含臨床心理師及諮商心理師"},{"start":3647.136,"end":3662.75,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八"},{"start":3662.81,"end":3675.858,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一人擬具"},{"start":3690.467,"end":3699.552,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,此法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,此法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,此法院組織法部分條"},{"start":3713.703,"end":3731.58,"text":"不是你們現在就有諮商心理師了是嗎跟委員報告因為醫事人員是條例他針對醫事人員的職稱他是依照那個專業法規他的那個領友執照的名稱來逐一羅列所以他現在的心理師他是臨床心理師跟諮商心理師是分裂的"},{"start":3732.2,"end":3736.041,"text":"三條條文及第七條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條"},{"start":3753.746,"end":3771.118,"text":"因為如果是屬於醫事人員原始條例禁用的人的話他必須對應領證照比方說你叫臨床心理師的你不能領諮商心理師的證照確實啊對這我也同意啊對啊所以可是在我們法院組織法這邊寫心理師是有什麼不對因為因為"},{"start":3773.24,"end":3787.828,"text":"日後禁用的時候變成說我們會不清楚這個他所禁用的人是屬於哪一類的不是因為你們可以看證照你們禁用的時候不是就要檢附證照了嗎怎麼會不清楚因為這個附表是屬於組織編制那組織編制裡面他就要指涉這個職務的職稱所以變成說主席"},{"start":3796.013,"end":3816.323,"text":"我們要比較能夠明白說是禁用哪一種的心理師所以就是說假設我們今天是修的是這個組織附表對然後在心理師下面括號臨床心理師及諮商心理師這樣就可以了嗎依照現行臨時動議的提案這樣子的話是可以的"},{"start":3817.176,"end":3832.136,"text":"所以也就是說我們如果說法條還是要維持心理師但是在附表的時候下面就是誇號諮商心理師和臨床心理師你的意思是這樣不是是依照現在修正動議的這個附表是OK的"},{"start":3832.904,"end":3853.882,"text":"修正動議的附表是怎樣?修正動議的附表他是直接名稱就是直接就是臨床心理師頓號諮商心理師所以你的意思就是我們現在就是說修正條文條文本身不動但是呢修後面的附表附表的話就是兩個並列就是諮商心理師和臨床心理師"},{"start":3855.123,"end":3878.072,"text":"是不是我們請大家好醫事人員把那個醫事人員人事條例第二條秀在螢幕上上面寫得很清楚第二條他說本條例所稱醫事人員指醫法領有專門職業證書之醫師中醫師牙醫師啪啪啪啪啪列到後來就變成是臨床心理師頓浩諮商心理師頓浩呼吸治療師頓浩等等等列了20幾種"},{"start":3879.853,"end":3906.945,"text":"所以我是覺得大概聽懂了啦就是因為目前醫事人員人事條例他所給的法定名稱臨床心理師跟諮商心理師都是專有名詞他並沒有統設在一個心理師的名下那是不是這樣就出了好不好有啦那就第二條嘛跟歐委員報告一下剛剛全區部有說目前沒有心理師這個東西對沒有這個東西所以他在法律上面的名詞是臨床心理師以及諮商心理師"},{"start":3908.733,"end":3919.724,"text":"對可是如果是這樣子的話就會變成說你在條文裡面的看起來就變至關乎人心理師諮商心理師臨床心理師及左里員必須要設四個因為你沒有分號分號集壓"},{"start":3928.84,"end":3931.181,"text":"三條附表修正草案案案件 。"},{"start":3957.947,"end":3959.147,"text":"條文本身還是說只要修復表"},{"start":3988.013,"end":3997.38,"text":"三條條文及第七條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條"},{"start":4005.746,"end":4008.427,"text":"法院組織法部分條文及第七條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條"},{"start":4024.835,"end":4041.432,"text":"我們現在把條文秀出來對我的意思就是我不是糾正你我認為你是口誤因為那個法律就明文了什麼是法律上沒有心理師亂講我講比較籠統那我們現在可以看上面第二條裡面有規範有兩種那剛剛翁委員主要是這樣子"},{"start":4043.661,"end":4066.851,"text":"對因為這是兩個不同的法啦一個是心理師法一個是醫事人員法那所以如果說在本條文裡面我們這裡其實就單純心理師法裡面就涵蓋這兩個不同的心理師但是在附表裡面你可以把它爐裂這個部分的話我認為是可以啊但是如果說是這樣的話你在本條文裡面你就不會出現好像至關護人然後臨床心理師"},{"start":4068.092,"end":4075.719,"text":"段浩在諮詐行李時及卓理員。」這個會概念上會認為我這個關乎人事我就要聘逐四個人欸。"},{"start":4081.356,"end":4099.751,"text":"全序部主席跟各位委員報告一下那因為主要是因為這個組織法律的規定我們是定有這個法院未來他要去制的職稱跟他如果是議事人員他可能就是司級人員如果是列有關的職稱的人員部分他的職稱必須是要明確的"},{"start":4100.572,"end":4128.525,"text":"那未來他們在用人上面的時候才可以依據組織法律的規定去用人所以原則上在我們所有就是所致醫事人員的部分在各機關的組織法規裡面他如果有致醫事人員他的醫事人員職稱的部分他就會照著就醫事職稱的部分去做處理那剛才翁委員的部分心理師剛才我們的意見應該是把心理師取代掉就是有心理師的部分分別有就是臨床心理師跟智障心理師這兩個職稱"},{"start":4133.987,"end":4137.85,"text":"條文及第七條的第一項他說的是臨床心理師第二項說的是智商心理師第三條他說"},{"start":4151.562,"end":4167.987,"text":"本法所稱心理師就是指這兩種所以它在心理司法裡面就整個的心理司法裡面的心理師包含這兩種但是事實上它是區分成兩種心理師但是醫事人員人事條例是對應到我們各機關公務機關"},{"start":4169.167,"end":4174.549,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事項。此外,在法條上清楚地把臨床心理師跟智商心理師寫出來,表示未來這個編制附表裡面的這兩種人都是符合醫事人員人事條例可以任用的。"},{"start":4194.144,"end":4212.846,"text":"這兩種人他們在執行業務的時候受到什麼作用法的拘束呢?受到心理司法的拘束一個是組織的描述這個人的定位跟性質一個是作用這兩種人在心理司法他怎麼樣去執行他的職務那大概是作用跟組織的不同的規範"},{"start":4213.487,"end":4237.205,"text":"那我是覺得目前主管機關的說明相關的要說我理解了因為我們在討論的是組織法所以是引用醫事人員人事條例的方式來定名他這兩種職稱啦那未來在組織編制表的附表上面他兩個是在同一個欄位裡面表示這兩種人機關都可以任用大概是這樣那我們要尊重各個專門職業及紀錄人員醫事人員他們職業分類我想這裡予以尊重以上"},{"start":4238.49,"end":4241.392,"text":"法院組織法部分條文及第七"},{"start":4256.752,"end":4263.636,"text":"我們現有的這個刑法跟刑事訴訟法底下沒有諮商心理師跟跟這種區分就是講心理師所以各位可以看那個刑事訴訟法182條還有刑法更早的一個條文316條他們現行除了一式人員條例以外可能大部分的這個法律而且是很早的法律通通都叫心理師那心理師當然你就下位階你可以去分諮商心理師跟跟那個那個臨床心理師"},{"start":4286.387,"end":4297.239,"text":"如果說所有的法制都必須把信息是區分這兩個的話那麼可能也會聯動到人員條例以外的訴訟法甚至刑法這些都是不是要一併去做檢討這個也請各位委員可以去做斟酌如果說是"},{"start":4302.705,"end":4328.324,"text":"比照刑法及刑事訴訟法他們就是叫心理師那麼在修法的時候因為現在這份條文只有智商心理師那麼如果說是照委員用心理師跟刑訴跟刑法的一致那麼在修法的理由裡面也許可以證明說這邊的心理師當然包含智商心理師跟臨床心理師那麼在將來的人事禁用上面是不是也不會造成困擾然後也可以跟其他訴訟法、法制"},{"start":4329.665,"end":4350.922,"text":"條文修正草案案件一致,那這樣子那是不是還提升一點,然後另外剛才也有講說那是不是說我們在條文裡面並列臨床心理師頓浩諮商心理師這樣子那副表可以用同一個欄位,那這個在可能可能因為如果你前面條文用頓浩並列的時候,恐怕後面那個那一個副表的欄位就要變成兩兩列"},{"start":4352.363,"end":4364.212,"text":"三條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條"},{"start":4365.687,"end":4391.689,"text":"我大概懂意思啦因為這個法律它在不同的年代它在設立的時候它名詞上面像現在是更細分嘛當然我大概了解這個意思啦那看翁委員有沒有什麼要補充的其實我剛剛其實是蠻呼應傑密署長這裡講的就是因為在其他的法條裡面都是講的是心理師其實我們在說法說明裡面講得非常清楚但我看起來就是剛剛只是"},{"start":4393.471,"end":4414.831,"text":"條文修正草案案件純粹針對副表的問題然後循序部在盡用在這個檢視盡用人員資歷上的一個問題這其實問題不大要不然的話就是條文還是保持保留就心理師那你副表你要在心理師在這欄位裡面要拉成兩個兩欄諮商心理師臨床心理師這樣也可以啊"},{"start":4415.692,"end":4416.552,"text":"這又有一個問題了。這又有一個問題了。"},{"start":4435.305,"end":4462.246,"text":"那你像比如說你們在監獄裡面啊監獄裡面各個監獄裡面你們有那個那個整個矯正署啊那監獄的一個編制表那你們編制表裡面我現在我剛去點把它點進去看啊都是談臨床心理師反而這個是修法的問題嘛這個是不是你自己的編制表裡面你們自己部部裡面你們去制定就可以了他有個差價"},{"start":4463.888,"end":4492.709,"text":"也就是說這個本來的法律就夠啦你們如果要的話你們在整個編制表裡面你們去附加就好啦甚至於你們那個怎麼訓練師我看他那個來源喔這典獄長就直接可以去聘了咧還不需要你法務部咧就看你做不做的問題啊怎麼搞到說要修法法本來就有那你附表裡面你自己編制表你沒有去修訂你你假設你今天是監獄你典獄長的話你怎麼弄"},{"start":4497.435,"end":4498.976,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4513.435,"end":4527.367,"text":"現在的現行法就臨床心理師所以有諮商心理師正照的是不能夠去關乎人事所以說你原來喔原來看起來很怪你們為什麼當我們當初為什麼你們放的是臨床心理師"},{"start":4529.841,"end":4556.189,"text":"法院組織法部分條文及第七條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文"},{"start":4558.53,"end":4584.471,"text":"因為我們針對他們中間的差異有關於有精神病的時候他比例是比較低的很低所以我們不需要是受限尤其是工作平等權的問題我們不需要去設限說一定要再臨床心理師其實諮商心理師他也可以完成我們需要賦予他的這個一個工作任務所以我們希望說廣納讓地檢署有更彈性的人力的運用的方向所以我們希望把這個納進來"},{"start":4585.652,"end":4586.752,"text":"條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":4603.897,"end":4608.899,"text":"三條條文修正草案案案件,此法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件,此法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件,此法院組織"},{"start":4630.589,"end":4634.75,"text":"條文修正草案案案件 。我懂你的意思。我們這個修法來增加他們能量是好事。我的意思就是說這個看起來就非常奇怪。"},{"start":4657.335,"end":4657.716,"text":"最需要的你是零"},{"start":4668.376,"end":4693.235,"text":"最需要的是領喔!我們當初怎麼放一個看起來沒有那麼迫切性的那這段期間到底在幹嘛我的意思說如果你把整個編制表裡面你去把它做一個定證不用修法的話你早就可以達到這個目的啦那是不是就是說我們麻煩機關這邊能夠討論出一個可以接受的條文那我們可以先就其他的條文可以繼續先審查"},{"start":4696.93,"end":4721.778,"text":"不知道各位委員有沒有意見就是我們先讓機關先就六十七條的部分去研擬那我們先從第十二條開始討論起好嗎好沒見好那我們就先繼續進行逐條審查那我們先第十二條第十二條有司法院跟行政院所提出來的提案請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":4726.107,"end":4726.667,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":4752.894,"end":4760.98,"text":"和各位委員報告是在第七頁那這個版本是司法院跟行政院的提案那看各位委員有無意見"},{"start":4790.572,"end":4794.384,"text":"三十九條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及"},{"start":4796.684,"end":4797.144,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4822.864,"end":4838.643,"text":"你們的理由是說管道多元然後運用保有適當的一個彈性這當然增加司法的量能這個可以理解啦不夠卡手嘛但是這很怪的就是說我一直認為說你多了一個約用以後"},{"start":4840.03,"end":4858.198,"text":"難道就可以增加聘用這兩個的差別吼第一個先等一下先解釋一下這是我的一個疑問啊啊不然你什麼二十幾年來都用聘用你突然就增加了一個約用說不夠彈性啊是不是最主要我們講核心問題啦是不是你留不住人啊"},{"start":4860.066,"end":4877.578,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第八條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第八條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具"},{"start":4890.246,"end":4891.026,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 。"},{"start":4916.112,"end":4937.44,"text":"他認為那個升遷留任職涯生涯的一個發展最主要是沒有受到重視啦你現在用一個聘用進來啊你是臨時在抓人而已啊多增加人手而已啊這裡是不是請司法院這邊先回應一下麻煩副秘書長"},{"start":4938.978,"end":4962.655,"text":"主席各位委員謝謝莊委員的這個垂詢那麼這一個條文原來聘用然後增加貨約用那其實是在之前的會期大院的會期的時候那麼因為涉及到那個我們司法院的這個總原額已經到了臨界點那時候"},{"start":4963.649,"end":4988.048,"text":"那時候是希望說我們總原額法的我們司法人員的這些高限能夠去調整因為我們所有的占原額的都已經幾乎用完只剩下兩百多個人可以用所以現在我們假設說總原額法的這個總原額無法提高那麼我們只能就現有的司法院的這些人員底下"},{"start":4988.729,"end":5010.892,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,其中一項是否能夠彈性運用的這些空間,那麼這那目前一個相關到給我們建議就是越用這一種方式是可以不佔總原額,像原來的聘用法住是要佔原額的,那麼那個就臨時人員啊就講啊好聽一點來講越用就臨時人員就好啦但是聘用也是一年一年一用他"},{"start":5011.613,"end":5013.675,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案件,並且擬具《法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案案 案件,並且擬具"},{"start":5032.353,"end":5057.799,"text":"條文約用的這種方式我們才有辦法去支應我們的這些人力需求因為這是相應必須去解決我們司法院的緣額已經到了那個高限幾乎沒有任用佔緣額的空間所以我們要繼續用聘用的方式就會有困難如果說像現在今天的聘用法住那如果說將來有流動有離職的話那麼"},{"start":5060.8,"end":5063.003,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,而非法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項。"},{"start":5071.567,"end":5075.488,"text":"條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條"},{"start":5092.054,"end":5116.9,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案件,其中其中一項是否有約用的,那麼我們那些緣額,我們更有一些可能更需要的這些的工作,像法官,像法官,像書記官,那麼這些緣額就可以再用在法官書記官,其實所以最主要的這個給我們彈性應用的這個考量是這樣,這也是在上上上個會期很多的單位給我們建議說"},{"start":5118.789,"end":5147.106,"text":"條文解決我們司法院的緣額上面的這些困境那麼才會嘗試說用這個禁用的這種多元的方式上你們那個聘用現在一年一聘嘛對不對一年一聘你們還是要考試啊會考核是不是續聘如果說表現不佳當然我們就會就要去考核淘汰你們現在自己招考對不對"},{"start":5148.428,"end":5149.33,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5161.169,"end":5165.092,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,其中一項是關於法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件。"},{"start":5185.726,"end":5201.712,"text":"那我們的那個司法院的總員呢已經只剩下兩百多個全司法院一萬五千個我們只剩下兩百多個如果說我們禁用聘用的罰數把我們兩百多個用完我們連要禁用法官都不能用那你這你這些人約用進來他們要做些什麼"},{"start":5202.967,"end":5224.603,"text":"基本上他也是做一些輔助性的輔助性比如說幫法協助法官收集一些資料那收集一些一些法律法那個法學著作那麼去提供法官這些參考資料做的跟目前的聘用法官助理應該我們預設是大致相同"},{"start":5225.003,"end":5234.657,"text":"大致上啊你會心智會一樣嗎?那個心智的部分就是目前我們因為還沒有通過這個法我們沒有但是我們的力氣我們預測是希望跟委員報告我們的"},{"start":5241.187,"end":5265.257,"text":"准備就是盡量讓他一樣因為但是將來他們的那個任用的這些法規不一樣因為聘用的法住他是聘用人員的條例那麼約用的話用的是是勞動基準法勞動基準法那我們盡量讓他的勞動條件是能夠拉到相同不然的話確實會像委員講的將來我們的法院裡面的這個管理跟同仁的這個這個工作情緒會會造成"},{"start":5266.858,"end":5294.475,"text":"條文修正草案案的區別,這個部分我們是有準備只是說我們先要有一個法律上面的這些根據我們目前在準備的那些措施我們才能夠啟動所以我們是希望說大院委員給我們這個是將當初相關的人事總處他們建議我們面臨到這種人力上限已經到了整個瓶頸完全無法增加正式的這些人力的時候"},{"start":5296.581,"end":5319.007,"text":"可以選擇的這一種方式其實是因為這個原來限制的這個問題那我們會注意到說這些禁用的人他的權益不會因此而受到打折扣或者是造成不平等的這些情形這些我們都有準備那莊委員還有沒有其他的意見"},{"start":5320.188,"end":5344.308,"text":"我再問一下林委員我想民主黨對彈性的運用這些人員的任用我想基本上我們是同意但是我現在有一個疑問就是說你現在又增加約用來增加這些法官的助理我就有一個疑問你未來如果聘用人員"},{"start":5345.589,"end":5369.062,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項中的法院組織法部分條文及第七條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文及第八條文"},{"start":5374.105,"end":5390.662,"text":"一千九百多位,那當然因為聘用的這個法柱每年的流動力不低,如果說我們原額是充足,法定總原額是充足的,不像剛才我們報告的,我們現在全市法案還可以在金融只剩下兩百多個。"},{"start":5391.383,"end":5391.583,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5422.243,"end":5437.148,"text":"去選擇的金融約用。」那需不需要我們目前的規劃是因為每一個法院他的人力的困窘情形不一樣所以我們目前是由法院去評估事辦去約用因為約用用的是業務費"},{"start":5438.248,"end":5442.613,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,其中一項是法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一項是法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,其中一項是法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項。"},{"start":5456.528,"end":5469.455,"text":"並沒有這樣子的限制,也就是說我們是由各個法院你現在人力到底的這種情形如果就我們所知目前各個法院如果說他人力是充裕的話他還是會優先用聘用的因為約用的進來確實我們必須先解決他們雙方的權利義務不要讓他們產生太大的落差"},{"start":5478.379,"end":5505.884,"text":"三條附表修正草案案案件,此法院需要去做一些預備的準備動作,所以在法院如果說他的聘用覺得他沒有太大的這些人力上面的困窘,他可能會優先用聘用,但是人力真的已經沒有辦法的所以那個民眾黨你們約用的人員也是沒有這個上線喔?還是各地方法院斟酌他自己法院人力運用的情況自己去做約用?"},{"start":5506.926,"end":5508.708,"text":"三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":5523.322,"end":5524.764,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 。"},{"start":5538.547,"end":5554.969,"text":"五萬二兩五萬兩兩千多博士五萬七千多那將來我們約用的當然我們希望說能夠讓他一次不然的話立刻做的事情大致一次結果產生不一樣這些我們都有一致的準備我不認為你那個會用超過三年"},{"start":5556.684,"end":5557.704,"text":"三條附表修正草案案案件。"},{"start":5580.231,"end":5581.051,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5603.683,"end":5629.554,"text":"就是說我們一直在幫你們解決事情你們不能說因為我少人少人補人沒有問題啊可是你要講清楚你這個是有沒有開對要報告因為這一個他要講清楚不是反對的問題啦這不是贊成反對的問題啊所以說聘用為主、約用為輔你不要以後都是約用人員不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":5631.629,"end":5636.512,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件中的主席陳偉遠,請教一下聽起來約用人員就是實際上就是類似臨時人員了那你雖然薪資調到已經設定到48600這麼高可是如果真的像有一些人他"},{"start":5660.643,"end":5667.885,"text":"條文修正草案案件事項,此法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,此法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,此法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件事項,"},{"start":5683.26,"end":5702.729,"text":"如果涉及到這個保密的這方面的話因為他有可能是法官的助理那這麼重要的職務會不會讓我們在這個保密方面會有所擔憂會不會跟委員報告齁那當然這個保密的這部分將來在"},{"start":5704.502,"end":5714.827,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第八條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第八條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人"},{"start":5731.302,"end":5746.555,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第八條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第八條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第八條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人"},{"start":5757.233,"end":5778.382,"text":"條文修正草案案 案 也還是會離開所以這部分在約用的假設經用約用法住的情形可能跟一樣因為跟委員報告約用這一部分我們雖然是沒有但是法那個法務部的檢察官助理約用檢察官助理已經操作了幾年了那麼我們也是說檢察官助理這幾年的這些操作的這經驗我們可以參考所以我們才才在這一個規定裡面"},{"start":5781.003,"end":5785.545,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七"},{"start":5796.69,"end":5799.911,"text":"所以我們覺得這個以之前的主管機關建議我們這個人員禁用的這個彈性可以考慮那這個我們才覺得說這個是可以參採那至於說委員們所提醒的部分我們一定會去注意那麼對各法院來講目前階段而言確實還是以聘用的為優先將來將來人員真的已經沒有辦法的話那麼還有這個需要"},{"start":5821.579,"end":5834.13,"text":"那會去考慮也有只是說在現在法制上面給我們有這種這種多元禁用的這種可能性解決我們將來的這種困境這是我們司法院希望說能夠得到委員支持的好請問各位委員還有沒有其他的意見要提出黃委員"},{"start":5846.149,"end":5868.85,"text":"其實剛剛委員在提相關的問題的時候我相信副秘書長應該可以完全理解為什麼會提出這樣相關的問題因為對我們來講你在這邊的口頭說明其實不會產生任何法律上面的效力我這樣說應該沒有錯啦你在這裡的任何說明都不會產生法律上面的任何效力"},{"start":5869.878,"end":5897.558,"text":"那這個門一開了以後我們自然而然要去思考這個門開了以後接下來他所會產生的狀況是什麼所以剛剛為什麼會委員問是不是原則上用聘用,例外用約用但你們看起來好像是嘴巴這樣子講你現實上面在條文上你又希望保持你所謂希望有的彈性所以你不希望要做這樣的限制嗎我這樣說有沒有錯"},{"start":5898.951,"end":5901.455,"text":"法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案案"},{"start":5914.614,"end":5938.311,"text":"條文修正草案案的原額是夠的話也對他們來講因為其他不要做法制的改變還是會優先用聘用如果說委員們擔心擔心做通過這個法的時候做成決議要求做成決議要求司法院必須優先用聘用那麼我們也我們也因為跟現狀各法院的反應是一樣的我們也覺得可以只是說將來真的真的沒有"},{"start":5939.331,"end":5967.986,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案件,其他機關建議我們這種一點點彈性的部分那是可以摻海的但是我們也會遵照委員們的這個指示說那麼優先用拼用因為法院的反反應也是如此做成這樣的附帶決議你們會遵守嗎跟委員報告齁因為我們法院也是各法院反應也是希望"},{"start":5969.379,"end":5996.327,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案件,以委員所講這樣的順序。所以我們也是說當然大家希望這樣,只是說將來的緣的真的都沒有辦法的時候,那不得已的時候另外一個。不是啊,我們就法律人就依法論法,不要講一些奇奇怪怪的東西啊。我們做人附帶決議會拘束你們嗎?你們需要遵守嗎?因為說實話,如果我們沒遵守的時候,我們隨時都要跟委員報告,跟大院報告。"},{"start":5998.803,"end":6016.362,"text":"沒有絕對的拘束力但是委員們這個對對司法院的這個拘束力我相信我們不會啦我們這幾個月相處下來其實我們對你們沒有什麼拘束力了我現在比較只有相信法律的拘束力而已啊這附帶決議根本沒有法的拘束力你剛剛自己講的很清楚啦"},{"start":6017.335,"end":6044.947,"text":"那未來我們到時候針對這些問題進行QA的時候你就跟我講個這個只是附帶決議又沒辦法拘束司法院然後我如果再問你說當初司法院的代表在這邊是講什麼話的你只要說一個時空環境背景已經不太一樣了我想這幾個月我們在詢答的過程的內容當中應該我講的都不是我異想天開在這邊講的好沒有關係我們模仿到第二個問題"},{"start":6046.83,"end":6067.633,"text":"當有另外委員在因為當聘用約用開了約用的門了以後你把本來要受到原文法規定聘用的人數去當把那個元額數空出來去用約用的狀況在實際的運作上是完全可以想像那但"},{"start":6069.156,"end":6095.655,"text":"這個是我為什麼剛剛問第一個問題最主要的理由我我我光這樣想就知道了聘用會佔總緣額嗎?約用不會嗎?那我為什麼要用聘用?啊我把緣額空下來啊我用約用就好啦這個是我完全聽得懂剛剛莊瑞雄委員在問相關的問題的時候大家腦袋裡面在想的東西是一樣嘛那我覺得你就當作司法院的代表在這邊回答大家的問題就開誠布公"},{"start":6098.035,"end":6100.816,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6131.977,"end":6160.011,"text":"我應該沒說錯吧報告吼我們剛才跟郭委員報告的絕對沒有任何虛偽因為現在現在我們各法院對我們這個草案目前的情形他們確實是向委員的這一個要求因為他們聘用的法柱運用非常的久沒有關係那我們就講講具體一點你說實際上面運作就是希望符合剛剛例如像莊瑞雄委員所提出來這樣子的要求"},{"start":6160.976,"end":6171.648,"text":"那這樣子的要求你覺得在法規範上面要落實在什麼層次的拘束?是要在法律還是要授權你們用最後一項授權你們訂定的辦法裡?"},{"start":6173.712,"end":6194.377,"text":"委員報告我們本來假如通過我們本來就一定辦法因為各個法院也要求我們必須要給他們規範不然的話就優先用聘用因為這樣法院操作的還比較熟悉沒有辦法的時候所以他們已經要求我們要有相關的這些規範如果這法一過我們當然會訂那大大院的對我們的這個要求我們絕對不敢"},{"start":6194.957,"end":6220.276,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,不敢待乎,所以相關的這些他們的權益將來他們進來他們的權益如何去比照這個聘用的這些法官助理那麼一些的倫理的這些規範其實我們都有覺悟說將來假設要用這個的時候我們必須有這些相關的規範那當然目前那個副理長對不起我打斷一下因為你扯又扯遠了啦"},{"start":6221.036,"end":6236.11,"text":"全體義務是不是一樣,那是另外一回事。我剛剛當成在請教你的只有聘用跟約用兩者之間適用的順序嗎?剛剛你們說你們司法院一定是原則上先聘用,緣和不夠才用約用,這是你嘴巴講的嗎?"},{"start":6237.182,"end":6255.742,"text":"那我說這個你在這邊講的話對於未來的執行不會有任何法的拘束力嗎所以我才請教你說那你們覺得要透過什麼樣的方式來規範是我們現在要提修正動議在法律名定還是要依照最後一項授權給你們的辦法你們在辦法裡面定這個是我的問題"},{"start":6256.8,"end":6277.331,"text":"如果說需要我們在我們是建議授權辦因為我們本來就要訂辦法如果大約有這個要求優先聘用然後再約用那我們當然相關的這些授權執法底下我們就會依照這個委員的這個指示去把它明定第二個問題喔是就約用的名額就沒有沒有沒有上限嗎對不對"},{"start":6279.4,"end":6279.961,"text":"條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":6298.439,"end":6298.839,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6324.652,"end":6330.165,"text":"約用的部分有預計已經編在明年的預算裡了嗎?有還是沒有?"},{"start":6331.408,"end":6331.908,"text":"條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":6359.022,"end":6384.689,"text":"目前還在會診中他們有提報一些的什麼時候會會診完成目前有六個法院去示範示範那目前還沒有五個目前有六個法院每個法院先示範五位的這個助理那如果通過以後我們才會請他們正式的去做斟酌但是跟委員報告"},{"start":6386.004,"end":6412.058,"text":"因為現在現階段還是以聘用為優先所以並沒有說正式說提報明年需要多少位但是有六個法院每一個法院五位那個是現在嘛我是說明年啊明年你們各個法院需要的有邊現在有放在預算裡嗎所以我們接下來馬上要審的預算是在裡面是沒有的"},{"start":6414.338,"end":6432.898,"text":"所以目前沒有的話我們法就算這個會期三度通過你們明年也沒有錢可以約用嗎對不對對目前是用佔那些業務費那用不了幾個人用不了幾個人因為他要吃到別的別的業務所需要這個業務費所以你確定今年編的預算裡面沒有約用的預算嗎"},{"start":6434.245,"end":6444.957,"text":"因為因為組織法也沒有也沒有過這樣我聽完了我就覺得那其實好像也沒有很急著要過嘛過了對你們來講你明年也沒有錢可以約用"},{"start":6446.713,"end":6473.48,"text":"二十六條主委委員報告因為這個是組織法上面給我們有這樣子的這個運用人力的因為這是之前之前因為是啦對啊所以我才以我才分好幾個層次的問題一層一層往下問嘛所以我問到底就是今天其實三讀通過電影門來講好像也沒什麼用啊因為如果你講的是真的啦如果你講的是真的啦那你們明年的預算也沒有編這個錢啊"},{"start":6477.059,"end":6493.961,"text":"但是現在已經有幾個法院示範了幾位約用法助啊。如果說有一個法律的這個組織法的增加。這是你們自己的業務費嗎?你如果說以後這個法律通過的話,約用人員以後是可以增列約用人員的人事費用?"},{"start":6494.932,"end":6495.272,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6515.615,"end":6519.998,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,並非法院組織法部分條文修正草案案案件,並非法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件,並非法院組織法部分條文修正草案案件,並非法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":6542.011,"end":6569.603,"text":"如果今天一個法官助理說那我需要一個可以幫我去做小編的然後寫臉書的公關行銷的人員可不可以聘?跟委員報告如果說今天各個法院他因為要禁用這個約用人假設通過了禁用約用人需要增加業務費的話那麼你相對的那個法柱的人事費因為你是相對簡列那個法柱嘛那法柱的相對人事費就會簡列了"},{"start":6570.532,"end":6570.892,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6589.469,"end":6604.802,"text":"條例看起來沒有什麼差別那第二個問題就是說你在約用各種專業人員未來法院有沒有可能他聘的法官助理他並不是真的是法律專業要去幫法官去處理案件的而是聘一個類似什麼公關行銷然後這個寫臉書小編的助理"},{"start":6608.049,"end":6612.131,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具"},{"start":6633.453,"end":6661.716,"text":"那個主席我是不是建議這個條文討論也夠久了不同黨派的委員好像大家都還是有一些疑慮是不是先保留就我們繼續往下走我為了這個事情沒有辦法有一個清楚的答案這樣子要耗多久那個黃委員這樣齁那如果這個保的話12、3、4、5、1都會受都一樣的問題對那我們是這三條保留嗎還是怎麼樣看大家意思"},{"start":6662.492,"end":6680.973,"text":"可以啊就都保留啊。」因為這三條也都是約用聘用的問題嗎?主席是這樣子啦在場兩位委員三位委員我是認為這樣啦講清楚啦我在想你們可能就是要多增加一個禁用的一個管道"},{"start":6681.934,"end":6682.394,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6700.047,"end":6700.548,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6722.521,"end":6750.038,"text":"本來我要再去延伸是希望你們是多有一些配套出來可是我剛又跟你講說比較不符合人性嘛進去以後我三年五年我如果學歷那麼高我要去學法律我每天想我都要聽你檢察官法官的我看人家快哭過了跟你法官檢察官我現在被你們虐待我換我的虐待別人人性嘛不要說虐待了這個措施也不好了我就說他希望他達到另外一個人生再去進階嘛"},{"start":6751.579,"end":6752.059,"text":"三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":6781.168,"end":6800.004,"text":"這基本上我們都很支持啦就是看複密這邊有沒有辦法解釋清楚一點讓各位委員能夠了解講這個這個如何留住這些的人喔因為目前進來的法律系畢業的一半學畢業的是占絕大多數啦齁那"},{"start":6801.025,"end":6803.707,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具《法院組織法部分條文》案件,並擬具《法院組織法部分條文》案件,並擬具《法院組織法部分條文》"},{"start":6820.478,"end":6841.776,"text":"所以將來讓這些擬用的人進來之後如何能夠留得住人才讓他的這個權利至少跟跟聘用的這個法助不要有有這個明顯的這個落差那盡量能夠留留住這些的的適當的這些的助理協助法官做做更好的這個審判我們一定一定會會去努力因為現在就是說給這個人力運用這些彈性那"},{"start":6844.918,"end":6868.44,"text":"那讓說將來原額到頂的時候那麼還有一個空間可以去用必要的人力這是我們希望說能夠得委員支持那委員在意的東西我想也是我們在意的我們一定會去做更詳細的這些假設給我們要求我們定授權規範我們會去把它定出來這樣齁我有一個想法齁就跟副秘還有跟各位委員報告就是說"},{"start":6870.001,"end":6895.093,"text":"對雖然說這個附帶權益這可能沒什麼意義啊但是我們也很希望說能夠幫忙就是司法院跟這邊那是不是說我不知道那個黃委員如果說我們直接請他們寫一個那個附帶可以啊沒有啦我基本上是我其實覺得複密喔"},{"start":6896.4,"end":6915.953,"text":"完全沒有理解我剛剛丟那些問題給你的苦心啊我一直在做球給你結果你一直球往自己臉上殺殺到我後來怪要沒有選擇了我只能建議說是不是條文先保留但我可以理解啦中憲委員也是希望說這不是什麼爭議太大的問題"},{"start":6917.548,"end":6936.42,"text":"主要我們希望我們基層的法官檢察官都有充足的補充那個輔助人力可以用老實說本本就是說在本意上面並不壞只是你們用嘴巴講的那些規範的模式恐怕在我們現在耳朵聽起來都是"},{"start":6939.053,"end":6959.83,"text":"三條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及第八條條條文及"},{"start":6965.154,"end":6989.151,"text":"就是你們可不可以等一下先擬一個附帶決議然後我們至少給黃委員或給其他委員我們都看一下那大家如果沒有意見那就我想說這個我們就也不要保留我們就趕快讓他通過因為我們一直希望幫大家解決解決這個工作量還有法官、檢察官的工作量過勞的問題所以我們希望說就不要再拖了好 這不是介入個案謝謝主席 謝謝委員"},{"start":6993.507,"end":6993.847,"text":"三條條文及第七"},{"start":7035.35,"end":7060.716,"text":"我們現在先就審查排序四徵定第六十六條之五提案人有司法院及行政院提案還有台灣民眾黨團提案以及委員劉建國等16人提案請問各位委員有意見提出黃委員簡單說明一下台灣民眾黨黨團的這個提案其實出眾非常的簡單"},{"start":7062.233,"end":7068.175,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法部分條文及第七條附表修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具"},{"start":7089.744,"end":7108.035,"text":"我亦不曉得誰看誰啦兩個機關都希望要有最大的彈性所以你們的版本也是寫聘用或約用所以剛剛主席都做了那樣的才是所以法務部是不是覺得法務部沒有比司法院比較小你們也希望保留這樣的空間是不是可以請法務部說明一下"},{"start":7110.945,"end":7116.748,"text":"法院組織法部分條文及第七法院組織法部分條文及第七法院組織法部分條文及第七法院組織法部分條文及第七"},{"start":7139.144,"end":7159.889,"text":"那去年是一百一百一百個那我們跟我委員先報告一下我們明年的預算後年的預算我們的檢察官助理都編了兩百五十個人那這個都編在業務費裡面我們是要用約用目前也是用約用那我們約用的人員控管都在抬高檢"},{"start":7160.589,"end":7180.517,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事項,其中一項是根據地檢署的規模、它的業務量,所以我們分配名額給它,也就是說這個地檢署今年度你可以約用多少的助理,這個都已經框定了,所以不會有這個約用的檢管助理就無上限沒有這種問題,所以我們大概的情形,那之所以會用"},{"start":7181.277,"end":7184.339,"text":"條文修正草案．司法院及法制委員會第11次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":7201.96,"end":7222.774,"text":"我們目前是四萬六千多那再加班費三千塊大概都將近五萬金額大概就差不多差不多對我們在規劃大概是這樣那希望各位委員能夠支持請問還有沒有其他委員沒有意見"},{"start":7231.53,"end":7232.493,"text":"那這個黃委員這樣齁黃委員"},{"start":7240.18,"end":7266.03,"text":"黃委員現在因為那個民眾黨的提案跟司法院提案有一點點不太一樣因為他們是希望是在那個檢方那個檢方是希望在地檢嘛那黃委員的是在各級檢察署沒有剛剛我跟珊珊講過了我們支持他們的提案因為我們基本上一開始的初衷啊我們希望補的是基層真的過勞的啦那最高檢跟高檢"},{"start":7267.423,"end":7295.85,"text":"目前看起來是沒有過牢的問題啦可能基層的檢察官只有認為是不是有過弦的問題啦所以我們支持法務部這樣的案子沒關係其實二省也過了他們都跟我抱怨每個人都在抱怨都過了高檢也是說自己過了那是不是我們就依據這個司法院、行政院所提的提案的版本通過好嗎各位有沒有不同意見"},{"start":7297.199,"end":7309.63,"text":"沒有的話我們就依據這個行政院所提的版本通過那我們現在審查第六十七條第六十七條有再修正動議請宣讀"},{"start":7314.648,"end":7342.108,"text":"修正動議修正本第六十七條對照現行條文第一項臨床心理師後增列或諮商心理師第二項臨床心理師列師三級後增列諮商心理師列師三級第七十三條附表直稱臨床心理師後增列諮商心理師提案人委員吳宗憲、謝龍健、翁曉玲等宣讀完畢"},{"start":7346.352,"end":7368.889,"text":"第六十七條有翁曉玲委員等16人提案以及吳宗憲委員等所提的修正動議請問郭委員有沒有意見要提出沒有那如果都沒有的話我們就照"},{"start":7371.294,"end":7373.136,"text":"法院組織法部分條文及第七條修正草案案"},{"start":7397.177,"end":7412.65,"text":"全序部那個我一個問題請教剛剛翁委員就那個附表的部分他是希望說是那個臨床心理師跟心理智商師他那個貨把他刪掉那不知道全序部有沒有意見沒有好那就沒有問題"},{"start":7415.183,"end":7442.071,"text":"那我們接下來審查第七十三條附表內容是地方檢察署及其檢查分屬原額表提案人有司法院、行政院提案還有民眾黨團提案以及劉政國的16人提案翁曉玲等16人提案還有吳宗憲委員等所提的修正動議那請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":7454.501,"end":7460.387,"text":"司法院跟民眾黨的那個元額數不一樣中委員在第十四頁"},{"start":7471.584,"end":7493.29,"text":"有啦我有看到啦我的意思是說因為有這幾個版本嘛是那那如果說你是表達意見不是說針對這幾個沒有對是看大家有無意間要補充沒有就配合那個條文那個附表的部分我們都支持他們提這個條文那附表的原文就按照他們的規劃就好了好那"},{"start":7495.164,"end":7495.465,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":7514.679,"end":7539.735,"text":"你們的看法呢?再修正的...因為我沒看到再修正的是...就是配合那個臨床心理師...臨床心理師的...沒問題嘛,沒問題就通過啦謝謝,那我們就依據那個司法院、行政院提案以及那個吳宗憲委員所提的再修正東西合併修正通過好,那我們回...請問一下你們那個...那個修正...你們那個...正在你...謝謝...好..."},{"start":7541.621,"end":7542.201,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7562.182,"end":7562.923,"text":"三條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7580.865,"end":7581.985,"text":"三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":7623.621,"end":7625.31,"text":"我們先處理另外一個附帶決議請宣讀"},{"start":7627.461,"end":7654.098,"text":"附帶決議一一心理事法第十三條第十四條臨床心理師與諮商心理師之業務範圍有所差異。關於精神病或腦部心智功能之心理、衡健與心理治療之業務僅臨床心理師方能執行。是各地方檢查署及檢查分署若編制諮商心理師則不得執行上開業務。二（又本次法院組織法第六十七條將原臨床心理師再增列諮商心理師"},{"start":7654.958,"end":7682.235,"text":"系彼立各地方檢察署依需求及地方資源禁用相關人力得因因地制宜保有用人彈性然因臨床心理師與諮商心理師之業務範圍有所差異建請法務部善盡督導職責提案人委員吳宗憲、典屬人委員謝龍介、翁曉玲宣讀完畢請問各位委員有異見那如果沒有意見的話我們就附帶決議就照案通過"},{"start":7688.715,"end":7703.194,"text":"那我們就稍微等一下那個機關把那個寫好之後給我們來討論謝謝主席我們希望說解完整一點謝謝"},{"start":7708.496,"end":7709.277,"text":"條文修正草案案案 。"},{"start":8229.684,"end":8257.162,"text":"好那我們就先處理條文完之後就處理附帶券因為大家沒有沒有什麼爭議了好那我們現在先審查排序一的第12條12條有司法院及行政院所提的所提案那請問各位委員有意見好沒有的話就依據提案通過那第34條有司法院及行政院提案請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":8259.707,"end":8285.973,"text":"第三四條那若各位沒有意見的話我們就依照行政院及司法院行政院所提案通過接下來審查第五十一條有司法院、行政院提案請問各位委員有無意見好那沒有意見的話我們就依據司法院及行政院提案通過那我們現在來"},{"start":8289.253,"end":8316.406,"text":"進行附帶決議那請宣讀附帶決議附帶決議二司法院法務部應分別依法院組織法第十二條第四項第六十六條之五第三項之授權定定應就聘用優先於約用約用法助人數不得超過聘用法助之一定比例並制定相關業務管理保密與考核規定提案人委員莊瑞雄翁曉玲黃國昌宣讀完畢好謝謝"},{"start":8322.52,"end":8339.113,"text":"我剛才仔細看是叫一定比例喔因為我們就是照委員的意思優先都是聘用那他因為現在說一定說三分之一這個會好啦好啦原則上啦不得超過三分之一啦就下個年度要提報啦"},{"start":8342.814,"end":8364.962,"text":"請問各位委員就附帶決議有沒有有意見要提出?有沒有不同意見?沒有的話那我們就這個你們提出來是在這邊你們提出來的還要法務部你們自己寫的所以你們一定要做到這是你們寫的這不是委員寫的所以要麻煩你們"},{"start":8366.223,"end":8367.284,"text":"法院組織法部分條文及第七"},{"start":8396.121,"end":8416.954,"text":"已經處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢你據審查報告提請院會公決請問一下各位委員本案是否需要交由黨團協商還需要協商嗎應該不用了本案就不需交由黨團協商院會"},{"start":8423.091,"end":8448.947,"text":"院會討論時由吳釗偉委員中線出席說明附帶決議二項一併交提報院會處理條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理好那我們這一次議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢那本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"156543","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156543","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d8c43bc1098311604bb32fa75c598af442e72fbbb48a4d1ee6511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:58:04 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禮拜天 或者是他們在下了班之後他們是西裝筆挺的 可以到音樂廳去欣賞歌劇所以其實我們大家對於傳統技職的學生是不是在這個不同的觀念 剛剛其實我也有特別提到"},{"start":442.35,"end":442.45,"text":"郭文貴議員"}]}},{"id":"156537","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156537","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7de9ece286d858e18abb32fa75c598af44a2450328f9194eb4a3ec606ed071d12b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"10:26:27 - 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30年教改一直增加然後現在才一直關門這就是這都是我稱為叫做行政單位的慣性原理慣性就是一條路一直直走直走直走速度都一致然後往前都不會踩煞車也不會轉彎"},{"start":135.261,"end":150.332,"text":"現在是我們搶救危機的時候這就是國外的人口預估就大學學齡人口數2024年是有87萬人是18到21歲這四個年齡加起來87萬人然後推估到2040年會剩下67萬人到2070年會只剩下31萬人"},{"start":163.117,"end":183.524,"text":"各位在做大學的,絕對不要懷疑這一數據,很準耶,只剩下三分之一那請問只剩下三分之一,你的大學的經營,百年素人,你都沒在想這事情,都讀到時候在抹黑手,所以呢,到底要怎麼樣?"},{"start":186.519,"end":191.742,"text":"你看這個報導,112年學年,大醫學生剩下20萬人一個年級差不多嘛,剛才這四個年級87萬人,2020年接下來支持下到117年剩下15.7萬所以未來五年是私校的生死存亡的關鍵"},{"start":211.243,"end":231.323,"text":"然後大家都在搶同一塊萎靡的市場 這叫慢性死亡我不知道大家有什麼方法 有什麼對策然後呢 少子女化 這個已經定型了 完全不用懷疑因為我們每年花了一千多 一千兩百億在解決少子化的問題 結果還提早15年"},{"start":232.691,"end":258.461,"text":"你就顯然就是無效嘛無效無效就要認清事實不要一直想說啊再拚拚看那樣然後再看看然後永遠不針對問題解決問題一直拖一直拖現在呢就是說這個問題很確定所以呢私校一定那也不是走向這個什麼那個轉型"},{"start":261.394,"end":288.422,"text":"那我跟大家報告其實這是大家未來可以看到的行情我剛剛講說從樓上到樓下我看到的就是這兩個圖樓上的八樓會館討論高齡化高齡化我們現在平均臥床超過8年了未來高齡者會佔人口的一半一半的人躺個8年然後就不用討論少子化的問題了因為全部被壓垮了"},{"start":289.36,"end":289.44,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":312.648,"end":333.104,"text":"所以就是這些政策我們一定要改選 跟著我剛才在跟他講大家講說這個台灣未來最重要的 未來30年最重要的事情就是高齡化跟少子化的事情 天翻地覆我在樓上談的壯世代壯世代 為什麼這個課題很重要現在這個叫扶養筆"},{"start":338.753,"end":356.259,"text":"20到64歲當分母這叫工作人口65歲當做分子就是被撫養的但因為高齡化所以分子就越來越大因為少子化所以分母就越來越小所以目前是3.6比1未來2057年就會變成1比1"},{"start":360.04,"end":360.32,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":371.072,"end":392.539,"text":"林青霞你知道壯士大最大的遺憾現在60歲上來有600萬人台灣有600萬人平均就是退休了有600萬人那你知道林青霞這個今年就講說她人生最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學所以你看壯士大大概不到20%啦應該差不多10%左右有進大學所以他們的終身遺憾"},{"start":393.739,"end":420.336,"text":"少子化高女我們現在推動的叫第三人生大學為什麼大學只有18歲入大學80歲也可以入大學你應該不要在同一個市場搶你只要開放建立好這個教育的制度當中而且是有學歷不是社區大學、中年大學、老人大學這種休閒娛樂的他是追求夢想你知道有多少人要報名嗎至少300萬人要來報名而且這些人都有錢的不用公衛補助所以喔"},{"start":420.976,"end":443.985,"text":"現在教育部當然有開始在進行試辦計畫現在有各地像空中大學也把發展低產能生物大學當為目標特別是上禮拜我去華漢大學華漢大學已正式還有大同的何校長也有到場我們都在討論這一個開放的他們現在的"},{"start":445.385,"end":450.807,"text":"教育部應該要大膽的講出來這一個退休讓退休不是進養老院而是進大學好不好教育部可以有這樣子的一個志向"},{"start":465.632,"end":465.732,"text":"吳春城議員"}]}},{"id":"156536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d527f6573f1518dfcbb32fa75c598af44a2450328f9194eb4f4276e10a0b5a9ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:18:56 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謝謝主席那在場各位先敬大家早安今天這個題目其實我看了很久我很好奇主席的意象到底是什麼但我猜不出來所以我決定用我自己觀察到的現況還有我們收集到非常多現場的故事跟大家請教"},{"start":22.6,"end":43.959,"text":"我們知道國發會相關的人口推估報告2070年人口將降為約1500萬人如果少子化的趨勢沒有辦法改變那到時候65歲以上的人口將上升到46.5%那大家可以想見到這個情況我會說少子女化或者是私校退場的困境應該不是未來式應該是現在式"},{"start":46.241,"end":46.281,"text":"國教階段"},{"start":62.329,"end":65.91,"text":"行政院提出拉近公私立學校學雜費差距和配套措施的方案希望相關費用"},{"start":85.055,"end":85.536,"text":"教學品質是什麼?"},{"start":108.539,"end":129.769,"text":"資金來源的部分學生來源才是困境小子女化這個議題對於很多家長來說他們可能更關心的是我的孩子去哪裡念書而那個學校可不可以真的帶給我的孩子有長遠的競爭力的可能性至少在家長所能夠想像的大學四年到六年到八年這個階段所以之前"},{"start":130.889,"end":146.945,"text":"如果大家有印象在這個會期或是上個會期其實都有相關的國民黨委員或者是民眾黨委員一直在質詢教育部說為什麼這麼多家長把小孩往國教階段的私校送那我就問如果今天又是這個題目我們一邊"},{"start":147.746,"end":174.896,"text":"罵家長或是罵教育部你沒有拿出對策讓家長把小孩往私校送可是今天的題目卻看起來好像又是要挽救私校我真的覺得這個邏輯怪怪的所以我們要務實的面對我們如何看待私校跟所謂的消費者也就是學生跟家長的關係而不是今天私校很擠很滿的時候我們就罵私校順便罵一下公校老師而現在有私校來陳情我們又要幫忙私校我們到底"},{"start":175.576,"end":180.559,"text":"教育部推出新型五專三加二﹚國際產業人才教育專班﹚提出每個大學大家合作來開跨校的AI課程我相信我們都看到教育部有非常非常多的誠意可是在這些誠意底下我們都希望真的可以積極學校透過"},{"start":201.793,"end":203.255,"text":"主席的提問提到退場的概念所以我也想要來問一下"},{"start":218.371,"end":218.991,"text":"東方設計大學四所學校安置特教生的議題"},{"start":237.463,"end":239.065,"text":"教育部不能用一個簡單的SOP就想要解決這些特教生的困境而且我們看到"},{"start":260.305,"end":261.946,"text":"接下來還有大漢技術學院他們採的不是退場條例他們採的是私校"},{"start":286.164,"end":286.224,"text":"公聽會：陳培瑜"},{"start":301.477,"end":301.778,"text":"退場的基礎"},{"start":318.101,"end":333.28,"text":"中央要有SOP那他們跟地方政府的溝通又會是什麼跟學校的溝通又會是什麼我隨便舉幾個例子大家聽聽看會不會是私校現場現在退場所沒有辦法解決的困境結果所有的苦果要我們的學生來承擔要我們的家長來承擔"},{"start":334.301,"end":335.603,"text":"學生退場後學生退學率的追蹤"},{"start":352.065,"end":352.325,"text":"公聽會委員：陳培瑜"},{"start":377.921,"end":393.473,"text":"有非常多縣市政府一年1500萬面臨經營一所學校要不要讓他退場中學小學幾乎是1500萬的規格很多人認為反正少子化部落沒了鄉村沒了就把學校關掉就好了但是大家不要忘記了"},{"start":394.394,"end":394.534,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":414.685,"end":415.586,"text":"以上的發言時間到這邊謝謝主席召開今天的公聽會"}]}},{"id":"16232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16232","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854b47bc6500708d15ae17401902c90994083084566cc2bdb469347fd39339086b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「壯世代政策及產業發展」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-06T08:31:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-06T12:12:00+08:00","duration":13242,"影片長度":"03:40:42","委員發言時間":"08:31:18 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王志偉"},{"start":2194.83,"end":2199.632,"text":"交通部觀光署副署長林信任運輸監理師檢任記者王基周"},{"start":2224.502,"end":2232.548,"text":"那我先因為稍微嘛先要講講講參考參這個花言來跟大家報告今天的言語喔"},{"start":2235.58,"end":2260.051,"text":"今天我們齊集討論這個是國安層次的問題臺灣在面對少子化、高齡化的人口轉型社會相關的法規、制度、產業結構都需要因應的審視過去的結構可能奠基在每年有三、四十萬新生兒的報道來思考"},{"start":2260.987,"end":2278.144,"text":"那現階段臺灣生不到一年13萬人過去70年代的時候我們的平均餘命是60幾歲現在已經活到81歲我們一直說臺灣這片土地孕育了2350萬人"},{"start":2281.747,"end":2309.309,"text":"2070可能我們臺灣只能剩下1500萬人而且大多數是在65歲以上的老人2070應該是預估不過我們文化會的預估常常都是錯的我們預估65歲以上跟65歲以下是一半一半不過2070我們全部都死光了"},{"start":2310.543,"end":2327.039,"text":"我們不得不承認,過去政府努力的少子高齡化的因應政策,效果不彰生育率低,高齡就業也低,台灣沒有真正的等骨,等不過,所以現在要怎麼把他送到等骨去過"},{"start":2328.553,"end":2344.662,"text":"台灣在這一波人口轉型的危機上各個產業如果還是在過去人口結構的基礎的思維政策的概念產業結構下恐怕短期危機海嘯就會到來"},{"start":2345.723,"end":2364.415,"text":"目前面對百業都缺工的產業危機尤其是技術人員、教育機、學校、機構陸續倒閉的危機高齡私人照護社會的沉重負擔我們吳春成委員"},{"start":2365.476,"end":2369.745,"text":"他提出來的《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法》草案是在關鍵時刻提出來的"},{"start":2376.845,"end":2405.988,"text":"長期要帖讓行政單位有個法源一致由行政院來組織各部會投入更多的資源制定因應對策積極研發來因應未來的發展改變過去臨時編組的政策推動也推翻社會對55歲以上的人口結果轉型有更積極的看法"},{"start":2407.668,"end":2434.413,"text":"法要周全,要各方的意見來完善也要社會的共識當然正反面都有今天衛行委員會召開這個正式的公聽會也請行政部門一起聽聽專家民間的意見也請在座的專家能提出具體的政策想法不要打高空放炮而已,沒有用各位都在為台灣的未來台灣的前途來貢獻希望大家踴躍的發言謝謝大家"},{"start":2442.005,"end":2443.405,"text":"臺北醫學大學名譽教授韓柏慎"},{"start":2473.872,"end":2476.215,"text":"那我們先請勞動部代表先報告"},{"start":2486.89,"end":2508.98,"text":"好 謝謝主席蘇委員 在座我們陳委員還有吳委員 IT現場所有的學者專家跟各位與會的先進朋友大家早安大家好那今天呢 衛房委員會召開的這個有關於壯世代的這個產業政策發展部分勞動部就以下的幾個問題來做一個報告那第一個部分呢"},{"start":2510.366,"end":2527.364,"text":"關於這個超高齡人口結構變遷下臺灣是否在衛福、勞動、產業、科技、金融、教育、數位、文化等各領域具有改變高齡政策思維的需求的部分我們做以下的說明那第一部分呢根據"},{"start":2528.525,"end":2545.461,"text":"國家發展委員會中華民國人口推估從2024到2070年報告顯示我國的工作年齡人口自104年達到最高峰1737萬以後即開始減少那在113年我們的工作人口預估是1617萬到了159年就會減少為660萬人到750萬人之間"},{"start":2553.368,"end":2564.217,"text":"在113年我們45歲到64歲這部分占工作年齡人口的比例預估是44.8%但是到了159年預計將會上升到49.4%到55.9%中高齡很顯然會成為未來臺灣勞動市場的主力"},{"start":2574.87,"end":2604.09,"text":"第二部分為了因應降低工作人口減少的衝擊活化中高齡及高齡者人力資本提升其勞動參與勞動部近年來重要工作之一就是中高齡及高齡者就業促進法以下簡稱中高齡就業專法我們從109年12月4日開始實施為了積極落實中高齡就業專法提高中高齡勞動參與促進高齡者再就業建構友善環境等等的目標"},{"start":2604.93,"end":2605.271,"text":"政策及產業發展"},{"start":2630.563,"end":2658.209,"text":"去年5月1日 會商10個部會 訂定《中高齡者及高齡者就業促進計畫》這個計畫從2023年到2025年 我們採取分齡分策略並穩定在職者就業 促進失業者重返職場 跟支持退休後再就業等多方面的規劃共同倡議中高齡者及高齡者 繼續留在職場跟再就業"},{"start":2659.529,"end":2679.498,"text":"第4個部分,勞動部也持續關注當前整個勞動情勢,讓我們調整相關法令,配合113年7月31日我們修正公布《中高齡就業專法》的部分條文,將推動部分公司的工作模式以及延緩退休納入就業促進計畫"},{"start":2681.219,"end":2694.819,"text":"並擴大退休者在就業這樣的一個準備措施的適用對象同時我們也結合各部會共同開發中高齡跟高齡者他的產業跟就業機會至於第二個大問題"},{"start":2696.161,"end":2710.436,"text":"也就是原本的高齡政策大部分是屬於衛福領域在新人口結構下的這個政策發展是否會出現瓶頸是否需要其他部會來政策協力呢這部分我們分兩部分來說明那第一個"},{"start":2711.786,"end":2737.541,"text":"我們會整合部會資源共同推動高齡政策那行政院已經在110年的9月27號合併高齡社會的白皮書那同時在111年的11月10日我們正式合併因應超高齡社會的對策方案他是從112年到115年邀集了15個部會共同推動345項的重要工作那總共投入逾1200億的資源"},{"start":2741.737,"end":2760.588,"text":"行政院的社會福利推動委員會成立高齡社會白筆書的專案小組,定期召開會議,就高齡重要議題進行研商,希望透過公私協力,跨域合作,回應高齡者的多元需求,促進整體社會的共榮與永續發展"},{"start":2764.089,"end":2783.961,"text":"各部會也配合前開行政院的方案﹐積極落實推動高齡相關措施﹐從各方面向全面保障高齡者的權益﹐並持續關注跟延伸高齡重要政策﹐廣納社會各界意見與調整各項措施﹐故在政策執行尚無瓶頸或自然難行之處﹐同時﹐"},{"start":2785.882,"end":2803.485,"text":"我們為了強化推動中高齡政策行政院目前正規劃新高齡政策方案整合14個部會辦理76項工作以部會協力的方式打造友善跟引導性的環境以支持中高齡社會中持續貢獻跟回饋那最後一個部分"},{"start":2804.588,"end":2833.462,"text":"第三個大體行政委員目前透過政務委員會來政務委員推動委員會的方式進行壯世代政治的相關協調機制那是否需要進一步強化立法運作呢這部分我跟各位委員報告中高齡就業專法的目的為促進中高齡及高齡者就業以就禁止年齡歧視再職者穩定就業跟促進失業者重返職場以及支持退休後再就業等各個面向予以立定應辦的事項"},{"start":2834.062,"end":2854.808,"text":"同時也結合跨部會推動各項專案計畫我們建議優先落實中高齡就業專法的各項工作持續滾動檢討精進中高齡就業專法法治跟各項的措施同時透過多元的管道加強推廣跟創意協助打造友善中高齡跟高齡者的友善職場環境以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2864.807,"end":2887.725,"text":"好 我們繼續我們原則上是請學者專家優先來講那我們的立法院的委員我們就穿插這樣的話才能上 才有達到這個目的我們立法院委員天天都在講所以呢 意願一定給大家"},{"start":2888.632,"end":2904.988,"text":"那我們學者專家如果要調整發言順序要來這邊跟我們告知那再補介紹我們麥義貞委員我們行政院長很關心你啦行政院長一直在關心你啦好等級會議"},{"start":2912.389,"end":2939.398,"text":"部會及寫者﹑專家首提之相關書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報永久保存張其凱委員也到了好 謝謝林國成委員好 那我們就開始"},{"start":2941.994,"end":2942.476,"text":"開始發言 與會人員發言前"},{"start":2946.571,"end":2973.459,"text":"請我先告第一個寫者專家跟本院的委員發言時間6分鐘請把握時間為警報方便寫者專家發言請自主席台的右側發言原則上由寫者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員主要如果要發言大家簽一下簽一下我用穿插的全部"},{"start":2975.256,"end":2994.168,"text":"人員發言結束後再請行政機關做整體回應我們現在沿著上市10點半左右休息10分鐘我們現在請第一個登記發言的學者專家第一位是東海大學社會學系許甘林教授"},{"start":2997.828,"end":3014.842,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位新晉大家好我是東海社會系許甘霖然後謝謝今天有這個機會來對這個法案發表一點意見兩年前吳春城委員的這本書提出壯世代的概念然後引起很大的迴響我個人也收益博多"},{"start":3015.663,"end":3039.652,"text":"然後那個底下就3點對當這樣的一個概念要變成一個法案它可能涉及的問題提出一點粗淺的看法第一點就是有關於壯世代年齡範圍認定的這個問題吳委員在書中提的因為在不同的MINOR提的年齡不大一樣然後像在很多人在引述的時候像比如說那個就是商業週刊的調查他引述的是45歲以上"},{"start":3040.538,"end":3040.758,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3059.873,"end":3060.213,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3078.73,"end":3089.957,"text":"臺灣經濟發展的過程當中其實他們的生命歷程然後是相當的不一樣的也就是說他們本身的意志性已經是相當大的這是第一個有關於您認定的這個問題"},{"start":3092.048,"end":3117.666,"text":"第2個是有關於壯世代這個異質性的問題即使是同一個世代也因為性別、族群、城鄉或者等等其他的因素而使得每一個人的就是每個人的那個具體的社會處境跟他的具體的需求不大一樣所以那個像就是我們像比如說我們在X世代、Y世代、Z世代你很難就針對這個世代給他一個政策一定是針對"},{"start":3119.007,"end":3147.506,"text":"比較具有具體處境的這個群體給予適當的這個政策然後那個就是所以呢這個壯世代涵蓋太多異質性的群體他們有相當不同的具體的需求應該有相當具體不同的對應的這個政策齁如果說都把它放在一個政策當中當作一個目標對象的話可能也會有一些那個就是實用性的這個問題第三個是有關於蠻重要的是世代正義的問題齁"},{"start":3148.666,"end":3165.038,"text":"吳委員在那個就是書中也提到說這一群人大概掌握了臺灣三分之二以上的財富這是一個相當相當重要的估計這樣子的估計跟中研院社會所那個林宗鴻那個就是研究員跟其他學者合作做出來的結果大概一樣"},{"start":3165.418,"end":3193.953,"text":"也就是說大概現在的55歲以上的這一群他們掌握臺灣太多的財富跟我們的下一個世代稱之為崩世代然後有非常非常明顯的在首德或者各方面相當大的落差我們現在已經有一個世代很明確的標出來叫做崩世代這些人不願意生或者沒有能力生或者也不願意結婚沒有能力結婚他才是造成我們少子化的一個最主要的社會因素那今天"},{"start":3194.713,"end":3221.526,"text":"我們大概也不大容易再升了嘛對不對所以要解決少子化的這個問題其實重點不在我們身上是在現在的崩世代的身上所以我個人認為就是說那個反而應該就是把公共資源挹注在這些崩世代的這個身上我覺得那個就是像各種不同的讓他們願意結婚願意升我覺得這個東西可能才是比較切實一點的話然後那個就是就是"},{"start":3224.007,"end":3244.441,"text":"這個《壯促法》希望用那一種就是壯世代來取代老人、銀髮族等負面字眼但是在我不知道這些字眼有多負面這還要討論但是如果說把資源再挹注在這一些掌握主要財富的這個世代身上我擔心這個世代的對立會更加的明確以後壯世代"},{"start":3245.222,"end":3245.362,"text":"主席"},{"start":3269.176,"end":3276.456,"text":"謝謝許教授那接續我們請淡江大學經濟學系蔡明芳教授發言"},{"start":3287.952,"end":3297.118,"text":"主席還有各位在場委員、各位我們政府體系的這些官員大家好那我想今天非常謝謝有這個主席舉辦這場公聽會,讓我們有機會來這裡對這個壯世代做一個討論"},{"start":3304.002,"end":3321.911,"text":"因為壯世代這件事情一看到的時候,我會覺得跟我有關因為我身體很壯,我以為是壯世代但後來才知道壯世代其實是跟年齡有關那當我們要看這個問題的時候,其實我想剛剛勞動部許次長他也有特別說明過"},{"start":3323.272,"end":3348.345,"text":"因為我在看這個議題的時候我就去google我就去找了一些我們政府在不同的高齡化或超高齡化的社會之下那他所提出來一些政策那現在第一個你可以看到就是剛剛許次長也有提到中高齡及這個高齡者的就業促進法這個大家其實一進去看那就可以知道說他有對中高齡有定義有對高齡者有定義"},{"start":3348.965,"end":3375.977,"text":"那其實大家可以去看看說在壯世代的這個年齡定義上是不是跟這些有 overlap如果他是有重複的話那有沒有必要再去立一個新法或者是說在既有的這個促進法下面去好好的把裡面相關的適合未來的法條好好去把它修改我想這個會是比較好的因為既有的已經在做了嘛那為什麼要再立一部新的特別是現在我們都知道剛剛主席也提到了"},{"start":3376.317,"end":3389.858,"text":"在立法院現在立法是非常不容易的所以我覺得這個是大家好好思考因為你有這樣的想法可不可執行我覺得這個是我們國會那大家好好去思考的那第二個部分"},{"start":3391.389,"end":3408.469,"text":"就金融而言其實大家可能對金管會不是太熟悉但金管會其實在這幾年它也有所謂的金融服務業的公平代課原則或許許多的委員在過去服務選民的時候在前陣子所謂房地產問題的時候也有接到很多的選民服務說可不可以幫他貸款"},{"start":3409.827,"end":3426.366,"text":"那金管會就金融服務業的公平代課原則上面他其實也有提出一些特別對於這個財務弱勢的族群那第一個我們問的是請問壯世代是不是財務弱勢的族群如果他不是財務弱勢的族群"},{"start":3426.846,"end":3446.96,"text":"他是財務強勢的族群為什麼壯世代我們要照顧他我們在場也有非常多的記者朋友那也有可能是面對所謂的財務弱勢但記者朋友剛出社會的時候很年輕只有22歲就出入職場但是他不是壯世代不是因為你身材壯就可以變壯世代那是有年齡定義的"},{"start":3447.921,"end":3471.878,"text":"好 那就經濟部來看的話其實你也可以看到產業方面你只要上網看一下產業人才發展資訊網經濟部裡面他就有整理不同部會他的一些資源讓大家可以進去看那如果這些資源整合不夠其實這是可以討論的但是你說要特別再用一個壯世代是不是適合我覺得這個是大家要思考的好 所以從上面你其實可以看到"},{"start":3472.779,"end":3490.512,"text":"我們在許多的立法或法規上面其實就有提出很多不同年齡層的一些相關的幫助或輔助的這些方案那如果你現在又要再推出一個新的法案是不是我覺得這個就我們可以好好來思考一下"},{"start":3491.152,"end":3519.241,"text":"那如果在這個我裡面寫到的高齡的這個就業來看的話目前政府部門都已經有不同的相對應的政策了那並非僅有在衛福或者因為我拿到的這個提綱是說好像都集中在衛福但是其實不是集中在衛福因為政府本來就是跨部會必須要去服務整個全體的臺灣人民那我覺得在跨部會上面確實你都可以找得到這些相關的這個可以依循的方案"},{"start":3519.941,"end":3539.519,"text":"那壯世代政策這個提綱之一我想主席剛剛有特別提到有沒有進一步立法這個運作的這個方式我覺得是沒有那所以最後一個我想我的這個結論就是我們經濟學常強調資源的投入要有效率資源的投入是要把餅做大"},{"start":3540.877,"end":3563.787,"text":"資源的投入不是只有讀後某一些作品的人所以資源的投入不是疊床加屋如果大家要照顧真正的壯世代不是讓某一個世代的資源變壯而是要讓整個世代真的可以讓台灣可以永續經營的走下去第二個合理性壯世代的工作環境有比較差嗎"},{"start":3564.895,"end":3591.903,"text":"我想在座也有很多年輕的這些朋友那你覺得你們的工作環境比較差還是這個現在這個比較長者的工作環境比較差大家已經在當官的人你覺得過去的人他的工作環境比較差還是我現在面對不要說壯世代我面對爛世代我一天到晚就要被爛就要被交辦任務我的工作環境其實在變差的那為什麼要照顧所謂的壯世代我也可以定義一個爛世代"},{"start":3592.583,"end":3614.883,"text":"所以這個定義定義不完那最後一個我想不能根據所謂的額外定義一個世代然後你就來說這個要拿資源我覺得這個是不合理的因為你這個定義一個世代就可以拿資源那不同的世代大家都可以定義一個世代出來那最後結果就是怎麼樣就是讓某一個世代就會變成領雙薪"},{"start":3616.064,"end":3629.222,"text":"大家都覺得好像領雙新不太好但是你現在定義壯世代讓資源變壯就是在領雙新那第二個就是扭曲資源的配置我想剛剛前面有一位學者也有提到就是創造更多的台灣繃世代為什麼會這樣子"},{"start":3631.425,"end":3647.661,"text":"崩世代的名詞遠比壯世代這個出來已經久很多了當你把資源又投入在更多的一群已經拿到很多資源的身上你只會讓大家更不享生剛剛勞動部許智商也有特別提到"},{"start":3648.342,"end":3665.191,"text":"因為你高齡者這是用比例來定義這個高齡化的社會的問題你讓大家更不敢生那當然後面的這個高齡化的比例就更為嚴重所以我覺得這應該不是政府期待的你去創造一個政策出來讓台灣的高齡社會更為嚴重以上是我的發言謝謝"},{"start":3667.694,"end":3682.204,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝我們蔡英芳教授講得非常好至少我覺得啦 我們現在在稱65歲以上的人叫做高齡什麼長青 什麼老年 什麼長者"},{"start":3683.525,"end":3686.008,"text":"我們接續請世界公民數位治理基金會董事長陳春山教授"},{"start":3718.982,"end":3736.934,"text":"我想今天的議題是在於剛才有在談定義的問題還有沒有資源分配的問題我想我們跟幾位委員還有很多夥伴談的事實上是一個人才跟產業的價值促進的問題"},{"start":3739.575,"end":3759.227,"text":"而不是在過度保護的問題,不在於強勢讓它更強勢的問題所以以下我想從一個像我自己在財經領域我常常知道有更多的人員跟資源跟能力的manpower可以創造更大的價值,我們怎麼來做所以我想從這個角度一起來思維更大的可能性"},{"start":3760.617,"end":3780.703,"text":"過去像我覺得是壯世代我覺得我身體不壯但是我知道我未來一定要在未來30年在離開這個地球之前我一定要讓對這個社會更有貢獻這是我的目標所以談到壯世代我談的是我怎麼樣更有貢獻我怎麼樣更有價值而不是我要更多的資源"},{"start":3781.343,"end":3807.671,"text":"所以如果我們忘記了這個資源的可能性跟最大的一個空間沒有一個前瞻的管理政策這樣的資源其實是整個社會事實上是浪費太多了我們剛才已經談到65歲以上55歲以上他的繳稅跟資產的貢獻對台灣是很大的但是我們看看剛才各位談到幾位的報告的內容他其實是在說你很被騙你很容易被騙或者是說你要更保護"},{"start":3808.271,"end":3823.788,"text":"我們今天談的這個法案不是在更保護更多的資源而是要把這個資源跟人才能夠產生更大的結果這才是我們這個法案所關心的目標而不是在說你這個已經很資源我要再從預算裡面要更多不是這樣的一個思維"},{"start":3824.429,"end":3838.621,"text":"所以我在談壯世代我記得在全世界我看到各國的各國包括哈佛跟史丹佛大學都把這個東西怎麼樣產生更大的資源往更前瞻的科技來發展而不是在談個別更多的保護"},{"start":3839.562,"end":3859.375,"text":"所以當然更多的保護我不反對,我覺得那個照護、長照我都不反對,但今天我們是談的議題不在於更多的保護而在於更多的可能性,更多的創造這些壯世代還有下一個世代將來變回壯世代,怎麼樣產生更多的資源今天是一個發想的議題,而不是一個更多保護的議題,這是我的一個想法"},{"start":3861.397,"end":3883.253,"text":"我覺得在短期我就覺得真的好好來思考一下這樣的一個可能性我常常在大學教書常常把資源給他們他們就自己發想但是這個資源都非常有限的但是他們能夠產生很大的結果所以我個人建議這樣的議題從人才人口的角度應該每10年我們應該剛才國發會已經做了一些很多的預估我們希望每10年"},{"start":3884.093,"end":3898.382,"text":"就怎麼樣這一塊的人才資源還有他們的財富資源產生更大的社會價值甚至我把它叫做世界公民價值我們要定期的檢討然後同時我們要能夠讓他們能夠更多的檢測跟健康促進"},{"start":3899.122,"end":3922.442,"text":"我自己的媽媽就缺乏一個很好的健康招呼跟促進60歲中風然後90歲往生我們都需要讓她能夠享受更好這個東西我們不需要置業我們只需要能夠更好的政策跟法規我們也希望在台灣的未來的國發基金跟更多的這個產業能夠往H Tech走往高齡熱齡產業走事實上我們今天如果做好了我們不只是照顧台灣"},{"start":3923.623,"end":3949.361,"text":"臺灣可以幫助我們基本上就是希望成為我碰到施政榮董事長他常常講我們能夠做世界人因為我們能夠做大家的朋友所以我們今天所談的議題是一個資源的發揮是一個國際影響力的發揮而不在於更多的保護或是資源的措置所以我們希望這樣的想法是讓下一代也覺得說我將來10年之後20年之後我也要成為這樣的人成為壯世代對這個社會跟對這個世界更有貢獻"},{"start":3952.826,"end":3955.081,"text":"這個東西的前瞻管理政策是需要大家來思考"},{"start":3956.072,"end":3985.612,"text":"所以我期待的是這個法案叫壯世代或是任何法都沒有問題叫基本法叫促進法都沒有問題但是我們需要一個10年的政策在5年前我們跟很多的委員跟很多的朋友談這個議題其實所有的立法政策就是保護就是長照而不是一個資產前瞻的一個管理政策我們覺得這樣的議題一定可以成為一個未來人才跟產業的一個更大的可能性能夠把這樣的可能性成為世界之光"},{"start":3986.193,"end":3988.684,"text":"我們也希望這樣的部分能夠幫助更多人"},{"start":3989.915,"end":4015.923,"text":"所以我個人是覺得我們需要一個前瞻一個管理的思維這個法案叫什麼法案我們都覺得OK它的年齡也可以討論但是最重要是我們一起來思維這樣的促進法案我在財經產業已經快30年40年了我們最近訂亞洲資產的管理有多少法案就是對現有的資源能夠產生更大的價值我的目標是這樣的資源如果只是因為我們小小的想法"},{"start":4016.923,"end":4043.774,"text":"說這個東西已經有了這個東西只是因為更多的保護我想這個思維我們可以再來檢討謝謝各位 謝謝每一個教授都能夠提早結束一分鐘太厲害了好的老師就是不準時上課一定要準時下課接下來我們請李寶進教授政治大學社工系"},{"start":4056.083,"end":4072.246,"text":"主席 蘇委員 各位委員 各位政府機關代表 各位女士先生今天很高興受邀來參加這樣的一個公聽會當然也感佩我們立法委員對這個議題 超高齡社會或高齡社會的關心"},{"start":4073.126,"end":4101.356,"text":"那我今天會有提出四個看法我今天講話的標題是能眼看壯世代是否遮蓋了多元自主長輩的存在作為一個臺灣在教授老人福利高齡社會政策的一個學者我想這個題目事實上是讓我們長輩看不見了把名詞拿掉了就看不到長輩那從人類發展的理論來看人的發展本來就分成了"},{"start":4101.696,"end":4123.103,"text":"由兒期、嬰兒期、幼兒期、兒童期、成年期這個老年期那你今天我們這個法案就是年齡要把它是55到64歲跟65歲一直到現在可能85歲的一群人在一起說這個世代叫壯世代那這樣就是讓我們長輩的主體性看不到"},{"start":4123.763,"end":4151.016,"text":"你用臺灣的老人生活狀況調查報告或者用臺灣的中老年人身心狀況追蹤調查報告我們去分析這兩個世代的想法或者需要是不同的我們都認為身體健康很重要我們也擔心我們的健康沒有人照顧我們也擔心老年的生活夠不夠保障但是你細一步去看是有差異的就是我的分析我去做一個報告看起來"},{"start":4153.217,"end":4175.075,"text":"就是55歲與65歲兩個民眾的比照65歲與55歲的人口群在健康在教育在就業跟健康狀況社會參與跟社會關係都不一樣所以我們今天把他們綁在一起把我們老人不見了變成壯世代我們有更好嗎你們沒有看到我們的需求就不會為我們長輩為我們老人去創造創立法案"},{"start":4180.6,"end":4180.74,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4202.143,"end":4228.408,"text":"有為這件事情不是說我們去參與勞動市場做經濟性貢獻才是有貢獻有為這個字如果用英文字叫productive就是有生產力的或者是有創造性的甚至有人現在用generative就是老人能就有創造對他有意義的活動不是去勞動市場工作對他有意義的工作是畫一幅畫或者寫一首詩或者我去安排一個旅行"},{"start":4228.928,"end":4243.901,"text":"所以這一個經濟性的活動才是對社會有貢獻然後希望所有的壯世代人都要去工作那我覺得這件事情是值得我們再去商討的因為有為老年的意思是說這個活動能夠讓長輩覺得我的生命有意義覺得我個人覺得有價值"},{"start":4250.206,"end":4252.53,"text":"也就是回歸有為老年的終極目標是讓我們長輩的生活品質提高讓我們長輩可以覺得有幸福感這是第二個主張就是我的標題是寫說不是勞動生才具社會關鍵"},{"start":4265.59,"end":4284.512,"text":"壯世代不是工作世代來解讀這個有為老年的這個意義第三個看法是說那要提升老人的生活品質有什麼做呢我們都知道嘛在談論福利國家的討論本來就是有政府部門本來就有家庭部門就有社區部門有這個商業部門有非營利組織部門"},{"start":4285.393,"end":4285.533,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4303.271,"end":4303.291,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4331.135,"end":4332.496,"text":"創造一個名字,把它不見了"},{"start":4360.95,"end":4361.13,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4376.675,"end":4403.82,"text":"非常有自主尊重不同選擇讓社會共融 世代永續發展目前政府有沒有作為一個老人福利的倡導者政府有沒有政策在推 有高齡社會對策白皮書就是還有各種法案長期照顧老人福利法跟你看到所有列出來的法案中高齡就業都是我們應該是認真來推動這些法案而不是在另外一個法"},{"start":4405,"end":4405.28,"text":"謝謝周無天教授"},{"start":4430.218,"end":4430.238,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4455.837,"end":4471.395,"text":"我想我是財團法人臺北金融研究發展基金會的周無天今天很榮幸有機會來參與今天這樣的一個公聽會我想我今天能夠來參與應該跟我兩年多前有機會"},{"start":4475.765,"end":4475.785,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4494.232,"end":4512.027,"text":"今天我們的主題是超高齡人口結構的變遷下臺灣是否在衛福、勞動、產業、科技、金融、教育、數位、文化等各個領域既有改變高齡政策思維的需求我的答案是是"},{"start":4513.223,"end":4513.243,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4527.697,"end":4541.776,"text":"目前正透過政務委員督導委員會方式進行壯世代政策的相關協調機制是否有需要進一步立法強化運作方式我認為可以好好的考慮這個議題"},{"start":4544.485,"end":4558.43,"text":"那為什麼這樣子有一句話大家一定非常熟悉科技始終來自於人性這是Nokia的一句話講這一句話的人當時他是多麼strong結果才幾年時間他就不見了"},{"start":4560.53,"end":4573.935,"text":"金融始終來自於生活這是我們臺北金融基金會我們走過30年在整理特刊的時候我們感受到的金融跟生活的關係所提出來一句話"},{"start":4575.555,"end":4593.523,"text":"第三 生活離不開理財及金融服務所以我們從金融的角度來談生活尤其是屬於壯世代這個年齡層的生活所需要的大概是這樣這個是我借用吳理事長所主張的概念"},{"start":4596.306,"end":4602.352,"text":"這一個圖片是新聞稿應該是上禮拜左右的資訊這資訊我要強調的一個點是這邊強調是70歲以上的投資人可以開戶投資期貨"},{"start":4609.884,"end":4635.531,"text":"談的是金融年齡的解讀其他所要表達的兩個意涵它確實對於高齡的歧視是不OK的為什麼因為期貨有一個很重要的一個功能那它就是價格的發現者或者我們所說在現貨波動情況之下的風險幣規避風險的一個很重要的工具"},{"start":4636.411,"end":4658.96,"text":"所以這個是一個很具體的一個概念所以我們同樣的要講一件事情在整個年齡往老年化走少子化的情況之下我們的整個環境是改變的透過這樣一個解除他只是讓他一定要理財的那個年長者他也能夠該有的人權"},{"start":4660.02,"end":4688.494,"text":"而不是說因為你年紀大就懷疑他一定判斷不OK那這樣的一個情況我想大家不能接受我是從這個角度來談所以我覺得各個部份同樣的道理可以來思考以往所設定的年齡到一個階段他一定點點點我覺得可以換一個角度來思考因為你我在座當中有很多都已經接近70的人包括在座我"},{"start":4689.494,"end":4703.214,"text":"我們覺得我們還不能做這些事情嗎如果不是的話那我覺得硬生生的規定我認為它不合理就好像我們的駕照在國外來講它是可以到90歲還可以開那這是另外一個有趣的議題"},{"start":4704.761,"end":4723.722,"text":"再來這個是人口結構的一個概念請記住一件事情在1970年跟2040年我們還有15年的時間整個對照來講整個結構的改變是完全不一樣把這個圖形用三角形再框出來是完全不一樣的概念結果你還用現在的思維去因應去處理"},{"start":4725.283,"end":4742.534,"text":"請注意一件事情 我們當時的老年65歲人口只有2.9%現在到了2040年會高達30% 接近多少 10倍這麼大的轉變當中 結果我們還是抱著這樣的概念來處理思考"},{"start":4743.895,"end":4760.516,"text":"這個一定有盲點 盲點在哪裡 大家可以來思考所以這個是一個結構的問題還有一個很重要的點 從大陸賽的角度來講我們所佔的比重只有3% 跟你佔30%你所要承擔的財務負擔是你付不起"},{"start":4761.537,"end":4780.172,"text":"剛才有專家學者提到說是不是會剝奪,他不會剝奪,他是比擬擴大,我們再看一個數字這個數字裡面我們看到,雖然這個數字是前年的數字,但大的數字不會有什麼太大的改變把整個台灣的資產加起來,如果不考慮房地產,我們有127.2兆"},{"start":4783.347,"end":4804.013,"text":"這兩年股市好的話也許加個5% 10%他可能就130兆到140兆有這個base的情況之下如果能夠增加千分之一我們就1000多億再提撥百分之多少可以來照顧的福利他才有能量所以我們要談的是產業的發展來有助於這個概念"},{"start":4804.773,"end":4825.772,"text":"所以我的決議很簡單就是剛才所提的那個三個定我都肯定yes yes yes至於怎麼定是另外第二層的問題以上謝謝謝謝董事長那接續我們請老人福利推動聯盟的秘書長張淑清秘書長"},{"start":4832.786,"end":4850.306,"text":"主席還有我們各位委員還有我們各位與會的政府官員還有專家學者大家早安首先非常謝謝衛環委員會想到老蒙讓老蒙有機會站在這邊跟各位分享我們的觀點那我想在我的PPT可以嗎請麻煩謝謝"},{"start":4857.34,"end":4875.63,"text":"我先簡單描述一件小事從楊潔剛過大家都以為資源一定要集中在高齡者的政策才是好的政策這是錯誤的"},{"start":4876.81,"end":4904.398,"text":"老盟基本上是一個全國的聯盟型組織我們里堅市大概年齡都是65歲以上那我們曾經為了從養姊進老金要不要全國統一發放我們在里堅市會很認真討論大家的結論是各地方各家子女財政不一我們不應該造成大家的負擔因為為什麼有沒有領到的也有領一萬塊的那為什麼要這樣跟各位提到的是"},{"start":4904.818,"end":4924.029,"text":"高齡者本來就是多樣化那我們為什麼要用一個名詞來代表高齡者呢那我這邊舉的很多的名詞只是告訴各位那不管壯世代不管銀髮族不管亡靈或無靈我想大家都是帶著期望希望這一群人未來是變成是國家的一個資產的"},{"start":4926.511,"end":4941.424,"text":"在聯合國很清楚告訴各位是高齡者所謂的人權是不分年齡的也不分疾病不管他失能與否不管他幾歲他100歲他依然可以很活躍的做社會參與跟生產老化"},{"start":4943.266,"end":4958.394,"text":"所以高齡者他是一般人他是需要平等對待來發展機會的那弱勢的高齡者才需要國家來做扶植的部分那我們這一次老盟的議題很清楚的強調我們的倡議主張一直都在強調一個議題是高齡的議題超高齡社會的來臨高齡者的議題是社會議題並不是只有救濟議題他是一個國家的一個整體性但我們現在所有的法案"},{"start":4971.721,"end":4971.741,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4994.389,"end":5018.117,"text":"所以這個都是很簡單的生活議題但我們回到永續大家都提到永續的發展非常重要聯合國也提到高齡者在這個社會是非常重要的永續發展的目標的定位那我們整個的高齡的一個友善的環境所以我們再次的強調高齡的政策不等於長照政策國家一直認為我有做長照政策就等於已經解決高齡問題我覺得這是一個錯誤的思維"},{"start":5021.198,"end":5049.92,"text":"那近年來老蒙這邊有兩種顏色大家就可以看得很清楚黃色的就是我們倡議到現在還沒成功那剛剛前這幾個專家也提到要成立一個壯世代基本法我們都覺得什麼法都沒有問題我們希望有一部法案可以來做高齡權益平等的概念從人權平等概念來處理但我們首先老蒙這邊是倡議把老福法來做全面修法不要再起新法"},{"start":5050.64,"end":5050.88,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5067.173,"end":5079.847,"text":"高齡 超高齡跟少子化他是一個聯動的關係他絕對不是單一部會他確實需要行政院部分那最重要是要世代永續但很可惜黃色的部分到現在是還沒有一點點的進展好"},{"start":5082.13,"end":5108.429,"text":"那我們主辦單位的公聽會提出三個問題我們做這樣一個回應那當然有些他舉例我想今天講到的是產業高齡者要自由要自主第一個就是他的數位能力要好第二個他要有正確的資訊來源可是我們NCC到現在都沒有聽到高齡者訴求所有的電視都在賣所謂的養生食品然後養生藥但對好像講的是你只要65歲就要開始吃"},{"start":5108.889,"end":5129.122,"text":"所有的博品等死的那一天我覺得這個就是一個國家很不友善高齡者的部分那衛福部這一塊的話像高齡的心理問題老人保護跟獨居議題勞動部這一塊我們建議說未來有沒有可能除了中高齡高齡就業專法的部分有一部分法案要去做鬆綁那當然我們提到的是"},{"start":5130.423,"end":5151.906,"text":"交通、自主可用、文化、金管會、財產安全等都可以再做思考在法案當中我們建議要去盤整所有法案不利於部分我們應該要去全面修高齡權益保障法而且檢視所有的政策要整合再整合"},{"start":5152.586,"end":5152.766,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5174.355,"end":5174.535,"text":"政策及產業發展委員"},{"start":5207.138,"end":5212.664,"text":"謝謝張秘書長那接下來我們請吳春城委員發言你自己提案說給我寫"},{"start":5226.818,"end":5246.637,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝今天出席的所有的專家學者政府官員今天是立法院最有水準的一場公聽會不管是從什麼角度我覺得聽了都非常的開心因為大家都"},{"start":5247.935,"end":5261.184,"text":"正式的這個問題但是首先來思考因為我覺得這個問題真的是很大很大的問題所以當然是百花齊放這很自然不過我們要來思考的一個"},{"start":5262.438,"end":5281.163,"text":"高齡化跟少子化問題是不是更嚴重我們這裡國發會的應該是變得更加嚴重我們少子化每年花了一千多億還提早了15年這一次最近10月17號做的報告我們的高齡化問題"},{"start":5283.16,"end":5311.407,"text":"那所以表示什麼表示我們現在的政策表示我們現在的解放你滿意嗎你滿意嗎有效嗎今天大家站在一個時代的轉捩點轉換口其實立法院每天很吵我覺得我們這一場最重要臺灣未來30年最重要的事情就是高齡化少子化的問題了啦今天問題再不解決好的話"},{"start":5312.389,"end":5339.188,"text":"那人都已經要減少一千萬人了整個的政府整個的立法院有在討論這件事情嗎沒有我告訴大家今天期區議堂就靠了我們各位我們是不是能夠翻轉這個思想這個一個新的時代來臨我們要用新的思維我跟大家講我到立法院我在深刻的感受到大家講了半天你知道除了衛福部之外各個部會對於60歲以上的預算都不到1%"},{"start":5341.616,"end":5367.525,"text":"都不到1% 教育部是多少0.2%文化部是多少這表示什麼 大家講了半天政府為什麼會這樣子因為他覺得60歲以後的沒用了嘛跟我無關嘛為什麼 包括我們的人也是一樣60歲以後包括他自我催眠我們整個的社會在告訴你60歲以後要幹什麼"},{"start":5369.57,"end":5371.556,"text":"對照顧人越來越多這些人"},{"start":5376.081,"end":5398.799,"text":"這個我不要講太激動很重要的所以我們今天要在這裡來開著會我希望我們大家能夠攜手合作明年台灣再55天台灣邁向超高齡社會元年這是一場災難還是一個禮物呢各位覺得長壽是災難還是禮物當然是禮物啊無庸置疑"},{"start":5399.6,"end":5428.556,"text":"我們要把它當作辦喜事來做而不是憂心忡忡所以呢行政院要成立壯世代政策辦公室立法院要通過壯世代政策與產業發展促進法這就是今天兩大訴求這剛才已經有講過天翻地覆人都倒過來了思維不改變用舊方法能夠解決新問題嗎當然是不可能嘛OK為什麼要叫壯世代"},{"start":5430.206,"end":5453.977,"text":"壯世代是一場社會運動這已經從2020年在民間開始已經推動了不是臨時在立法院蹦出來的東西了已經掀起了軒然大波各位去google幾十萬筆在討論壯世代幾十萬筆在討論壯世代這一個不管為什麼以前叫老人叫銀髮叫勒領不管是怎麼樣你的身份你去問"},{"start":5455.523,"end":5478.513,"text":"你用去 大家都是已經被污名化的 沒有人願意承認這些事情以至於他成為一個沒有身份的人 變成一個牽缺方向的世代壯世代就是賦予他的新身份為什麼要改名 都講說有需要什麼名稱的名稱嗎 那為什麼以前三胞要改名叫原住民殘障為什麼要改名叫身障"},{"start":5479.793,"end":5494.049,"text":"一個名詞就代表了一種身份就是一種汙名化那現在高齡者我們給他一個他很喜歡的名詞我已經在民間傳佈了像福音傳福音那樣四年了每一個聽到以後整個精神都會旺起來"},{"start":5494.73,"end":5510.456,"text":"因為我們平常的叫老人老人老人 都叫老人然後我在民間培訓了一千位的壯世代的speaker 到處在宣講所以這是一個社會運動 這不是我們今天關在那個房間裡面閉門造句的東西"},{"start":5514.269,"end":5534.468,"text":"所有的媒體你現在看張州去年用20幾頁封面故事談壯世代今年10月份用30幾頁封面故事談壯世代的百強企業所有的企業都在使用不是一個新名詞下個月要辦的資訊業也創了壯世代董資樂園董資訊的樂園"},{"start":5540.711,"end":5561.113,"text":"如果你用那個大數據雲圖你輸入銀髮高齡老人產生的這個雲圖大概就是老化退化銀髮族失能俱樂部大概都在然後樂火獨居長照大概在討論這議題如果你輸入的是壯世代他就是時尚質感文化參與活動分享你要哪一個"},{"start":5563.4,"end":5585.715,"text":"這就是我們政府行政院去年所提出的超高齡社會對策白皮書的目錄我拿這個目錄問陳建仁院長他72歲我問他說院長這個沒有利用的喔你看了哪幾樣會讓你動心他看一下以後說我都不需要請問誰需要這就是我們政府對高齡社會的想像"},{"start":5587.844,"end":5616.284,"text":"在這個翻轉叫做因法族思維翻轉成為壯世代的思維這改變的是何等的多大我們現在是停留在因法族如果你設定的是因法族你所想像的他就是什麼不是要去醫院就是在醫院的路上他的人生只要求平安他是年輕人的負擔他就是養生養平安如果你是壯世代他有30年的健康餘命他渴望自我貢獻促進世代的循環精彩的第三人生完全不一樣的政策完全不同的產業"},{"start":5619.793,"end":5646.08,"text":"其實這件事情不是突然冒出來其實上一次辦的公聽會有8個部會的部長全程參與了4個小時的公聽會大家有高度的共識包括這一次13個部會所提出來的報告都有所以大家都已經進行半年的不是大家還搞不清楚的問題已經各個部會13個部會已經跟我合作了將近半年了"},{"start":5647.401,"end":5662.654,"text":"但是這個半年當中我們不滿意為什麼大家所提出的64項計畫就像你剛才都是都是熱領活動沒有前瞻性沒有策略性都只是現有政策的會編這就是為什麼要立法的原因"},{"start":5664.986,"end":5668.768,"text":"各式各樣,不是只有一樣,這是一個全面性的修法"},{"start":5680.697,"end":5694.787,"text":"我們透過了整個立法院 成立了各個的系統 這裡是上次都有支撐的來建立這樣子 所以有龐大的專家學者共同在運作 不是我一個人在做的事情"},{"start":5696.105,"end":5722.378,"text":"這是一步促進世代循環 剛才也提這堂的一個權益跟照顧 這個是唯一現在 我們現在說的 大家都是這個國家 那個國家國家沒有辦法養這個一半的人啦 現在壯世代掌握三分之的財富他要創造的這個產業 透露對年輕人最來最大的希望 獲得新創跟長壽機會各個部位所扮演角色 壯世代整個的精神就在這裡"},{"start":5724.66,"end":5739.123,"text":"現在我們是單軌制都是照護性的措施大概只能照顧15%的人未來會有800萬85%如果沒有給他發展性的政策任由自生自滅的話會造成人口土石流連未來要照顧的也照顧不好了"},{"start":5740.612,"end":5767.067,"text":"所以這個三個字接下來這就是扶養比年輕世代的問題我們現在分子就是受照顧的人分母就是工作人口因為高齡化所以分子越來越大因為少子化分母越來越小目前是3.6比13.6個人2040年是2比1兩個人要照顧一個2057年是1比1接下來就是崩潰的社會請問政府有沒有解方沒有聽到任何的解方"},{"start":5767.927,"end":5769.069,"text":"這就是現在哪一個政策比這樣更先進"},{"start":5781.857,"end":5797.927,"text":"翻轉700萬現在55家有700真的4萬人這些人沒有方向感翻轉這些人本來成為國家發展的動力每一個部會他都要重新來定位他的工作角色這是未來一半人口的方向"},{"start":5801.149,"end":5817.493,"text":"政府應該扛起這個責任來這是我們今天共同努力所以一起把銀髮大海嘯變成國家發展的動力這是我們今天聚在這裡共同努力的方向謝謝謝謝謝謝吳委員接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":5830.714,"end":5859.074,"text":"各位親愛的家人大家早安很開心我們村城委員要來提這個法案所以因為事實上有很多都不了解說我們的村城委員要提這個壯世代我們的印象中就是壯世代就是老人就是都一直在停留這樣的一個"},{"start":5859.872,"end":5860.312,"text":"壯世代不僅擁有豐富的人生的經驗還擁有相當經濟"},{"start":5887.21,"end":5887.51,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5909.372,"end":5910.013,"text":"實現共榮社會的目標還有第三"},{"start":5936.394,"end":5938.256,"text":"增強國家的競爭力臺灣作為國際社會的重要成員我們需要積極回應聯合國的提出就是健康高齡化的行動計畫"},{"start":5952.962,"end":5971.009,"text":"並藉由這項法案展現臺灣在面對高超齡社會的思考前瞻的思考還有政策的調整進一步國家的精神整理第四徵締社會福利的負擔通過壯世代積極參與我們可以徵締政府在長期照顧的以社會照顧的負擔並促進"},{"start":5981.793,"end":6005.356,"text":"福利還有制度可以繼續發展我也跟大家請教一下我們要孝順父母是要拿錢給他嗎還是如何才是孝順父母以我的觀念以我們家的傳統的觀念我們就是要傳承"},{"start":6006.816,"end":6034.736,"text":"要傳承要有傳承才真的是孝順不是拿錢給他是孝順所以為什麼現在年輕人有的不敢結婚有的不敢生小孩就是因為怕自己不孝順因為要照顧我們的長輩也要說照顧了小孩也照顧這個家庭照顧家庭就是說好男人"},{"start":6036.257,"end":6062.297,"text":"照顧父母是孝順但是一個人來去照顧四個長輩他應該要照顧家庭還是要照顧長輩所以這個才是我們希望我們要讓我們的壯世代所以我們每一個人大家都說叫老人叫樂齡但是現在很多長輩我們跟他稱為壯世代"},{"start":6065.52,"end":6070.314,"text":"就感覺自己的信心都來了就像我在92年就做協會"},{"start":6073.049,"end":6093.002,"text":"這位是市長帶出來的學生所以我們是現在每一個月都在我們仁愛之家去幫老人家去剪頭髮所以每一個月來幫他們去剪頭髮的時候做義工的時候他們都問我們你什麼時候再來什麼時候再來所以我們感覺是我們的長輩他要的是陪伴"},{"start":6100.687,"end":6104.411,"text":"還有我們下一代的傳承這個才對他來說是最重要的所以他們都希望我們過來跟他陪他所以我常問大家說我們在仁愛之家的長輩他們是病死還是悶死"},{"start":6118.604,"end":6140.243,"text":"大部分都是因為悶死 因為每天都看不到孩子 看不到孫子 每天都在那裡鬱悶年輕的人 現在我們每一個人都是壯世代 每一個人都有自己的領域但是當年紀大的 當自己窩在我們的人愛之家"},{"start":6141.957,"end":6162.051,"text":"大家有看到他們以前的風光嗎沒有人知道所以這個就是尊嚴所以我們希望我們要叫壯世代讓我們長輩他有尊嚴也讓大家可以去發揮所以我也希望未來建議我們的學校學校不是只讓小孩自己讀書我們學校要怎麼樣掙扎我們的小孩"},{"start":6168.255,"end":6195.914,"text":"也要增加空間應用空間讓我們長輩在裡面可以協助學校他是教授以後他在這邊也可以在國小國中成為我們可以創造經濟又創造他的就業的能力也讓這個年輕人小孩跟我們的長輩可以共同在學校學習因為學校不是只為小孩來設立"},{"start":6197.455,"end":6197.475,"text":"謝謝麥委員"},{"start":6222.981,"end":6240.477,"text":"那接下來我們請壯世代政策及產業發展促進會秘書長胡志柔發言你要換一下賴委員可以了可以了"},{"start":6256.618,"end":6280.325,"text":"大家早安那聽了很多學者專家還有剛剛勞動部的報告我想我們還是回歸這個壯世代概念上大家可能意見很多但是中高齡或壯世代在職場的命運其實改變不大所以我今天的側重焦點在於這個如果新立一個法"},{"start":6281.991,"end":6307.486,"text":"那這個法對於整個隱性的歧視可以有更大的一個社會辯論甚至能夠真的消除我相信對於未來台灣的人口有七八百萬這樣的高齡者他的處境以及他自我的認同會有所改變所以我今天就想用這個機會謝謝召委安排讓我們對於這個法案雖然才二十幾條"},{"start":6308.166,"end":6308.306,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6337.441,"end":6364.45,"text":"那我們來看我的論點其實在8月份的這個會議當中公聽會裡面我們也有一些報告那基本上以高齡者或中高齡在職場上的一個處境審計部的報告很清楚就是年齡歧視讓很多的勞參率其實包括工作的機會都是腰斬的所以從45到49我們看到還是可以跟其他國家"},{"start":6365.13,"end":6392.752,"text":"有一定的競爭比較但是到了55歲以上真的是沒有辦法在東亞裡面立足相信大家都知道原因雖然大家說日本用終身僱用制然後日本更早我們20年面臨的人口老化但是他們在高齡就業的部分勞參率還是相當可以去提供社會的整個運作的需求那我今天我們知道有新秉隆老師在這裡他是這方面的專家"},{"start":6394.453,"end":6415.309,"text":"從客觀上來看我們台灣是不是在這個勞動力的不管是運用以及參與的這個問題裡面呢沒有一個上位的思維沒有一個前瞻性的一個眼光所以以至於這20年來55歲左右的老參與一直是不動如山一直沒有辦法突破那我相信我們這個左院長在"},{"start":6416.009,"end":6441.568,"text":"10月底的這個雙就業跟雙照顧政策裡面已經發了一個重要的訊息就是他要在4年內讓這個62萬人重返職場或續留職場那這樣的一個前瞻的一個目標要如何達成各部會今天央行查查的報告裡面你的KPI到底是什麼你每一年要定律定的自己的一個績效用什麼來做一個基礎讓國人理解"},{"start":6443.049,"end":6465.835,"text":"所以我相信這是一個法治上必須要面對的一個客觀的存在那以現在的WHO的規範裡面活躍老化大家都比我更熟悉那今天我聽到老蒙的秘書長也很心心念念的在理解一個健康老化或活躍老化到底要怎麼做但是我想你在職場上如果提早20年就被迫離職你要如何在社會上"},{"start":6467.095,"end":6494.125,"text":"自詡認定你還有資源還有條件還有社會認同呢你是一個在活躍老化裡面的重要積極的人士所以我就相信以就業權來看是一個關鍵核心那在就業權裡面有相當的法規但是在這個上位法裡面目前我們沒有看到一個比較具尊嚴性的一個上位法所以我相信我們在就業權部分部外兩個一個是工作平權一個是年齡歧視的現實必須要去突破它"},{"start":6495.714,"end":6522.953,"text":"那大家看一下勞動法規裡面救福法、中高齡法、大量解雇法、老人福利法都有講到不得用年齡歧視可是越是這樣的規範呢我們發現政府認為我都有做我有預防性、我有監測性、我有督導性、我有救濟性但是它的效果是什麼從剛剛講的數據上以及案例上都可以看到隱性的年齡歧視就存在我們的55歲以上的族群裡面那所以我相信救福法不足的部分"},{"start":6523.974,"end":6543.391,"text":"在於,他在委員會認定之後,他並沒有強制回復工作權的強制力。第二,大量解雇法,即使保證你要能夠回任,但是既沒有法則。第三,更是老人福利法裡面,強調勞工主管機關要幫中高齡好好找工作,避免他就業歧視,可是也沒有法則。"},{"start":6545.411,"end":6572.97,"text":"這個是發生在渣打銀行50幾歲的女性員工30幾年的資歷在最後因為數位化被迫離職的案例那他們今年7月也到勞動部去澄清抗議就是剛剛講的就業的這個騎士審議委員會認定這是一個非法解僱非法資遣但是沒有回復工作權的強制力在法治上我認為也是一個這個遺珠之憾"},{"start":6573.57,"end":6593.326,"text":"那如何讓這件事慢慢的在社會上跟企業界,特別是這些人力資源的專業者理解這些勞動力的豐富性跟尊貴性,而不是只有年輕人比較好用、薪水可能比較低、比較好管"},{"start":6593.926,"end":6619.799,"text":"各種刻板印象讓中高齡的就業機會就此被剝奪所以回歸第一個是經濟社會文化權利公約兩公約我們已經實施了那再來是我們這一次的壯世代政策及產業促進法的草案也很清楚的界定我們對待45到55可能大家覺得我也不老但是55以上到底要不要再一個定義讓他能夠回歸"},{"start":6621.604,"end":6638.713,"text":"政府要積極面對及協助甚至要開創它這個有價值存在的一個新的族群所以壯世代的定義大家很多意見但是我認為在國際上屢見不顯韓國日本早20年前就已經切割出必須要做人力"},{"start":6639.433,"end":6664.065,"text":"資源重新調配的一個國家政策所以我認為壯世代的定義不是問題關鍵在於我們政府要用什麼樣的資源角色來介入那現在的法規裡面我認為五委員以及47位委員聯署的藍綠白委員都有表示這是一個共識那我們的召委更是有前瞻見他希望今天的公聽會後我們有機會看到行政院也有對岸"},{"start":6664.505,"end":6680.495,"text":"行政院除了十三部會一千兩百億之外有沒有這個擔當的為未來二十年我們有七百萬的五十五歲以上的人口他要做的事情所以我的建議是要有強制一點的立法方式來因應"},{"start":6682.113,"end":6711.372,"text":"最後有三個方向希望我們在座的委員跟官員能夠面對第一個當然是雙就業雙照顧要有一個法源有KPI我相信國人會全力支持你們第二個要消除隱性就業歧視企業要動起來企業如果再存在這個年齡隱性歧視的話我相信我們的努力只能達到一半的績效第二個缺工的問題勞動部今天很清楚這些缺工問題除了我們現在希望全世界染財然後移工的這個培訓之外"},{"start":6711.852,"end":6736.644,"text":"中階技術人才在哪裡就在55歲的這些國人裡面但是沒有人給他們第二個鑰匙沒有人給他第二個這個支持他就沒有辦法再續留職場最後希望我們進速在公聽會後有一個專法的討論那不管這個名稱是什麼但起碼他在未來能夠減少國家的財政負擔的同時他個人的收入也會增加因為他會續留在職場延續他的這個"},{"start":6739.085,"end":6743.249,"text":"提供社會及他個人認同的一個重要的力量以上謝謝"},{"start":6766.11,"end":6781.753,"text":"蔣偉今天各位與會的各位官員還有各位朋友還有各位學者大家好我是新東向大聯盟的執行者的執行長陳孝昌今天的話就這個專法我提出了以下我個人的一些觀點下一位"},{"start":6793.514,"end":6814.006,"text":"因為這部分的話是對壯世代整個產業促進法的一個公聽會所以在前幾天我有仔細去研讀過經濟部的一些對應那我自己本身覺得經濟部的對應是非常的對位的以下我做了一些總結提出來給各位學者跟專家做參考"},{"start":6815.787,"end":6839.009,"text":"經濟部是從引導整個壯世代的產業發展來切入那基本上的話有兩個非常大的一個產業可以去發展的一個可能就是醫美健健大健康然後第二個是熱領科技這兩部分的話我覺得是非常正確的然後往下推廣的話它會跟所謂的地方創生來做一個結合"},{"start":6839.85,"end":6854.078,"text":"那相對性的話在所謂的推廣壯世代的休閒活動這塊他也有把自己在經濟部想帶動的產業有推廣出來然後最後做了一個總結的話就是在促進整個壯世代的資產的鏈結"},{"start":6856.653,"end":6879.952,"text":"也列了四項,然後我覺得非常重要的是最後面的兩項第一個是將整個僱用中高齡及就業級所謂促進中高齡就業列入審核的一個重點甚至用點數的方式來做考核另外一個非常重要的話就是提升應用數位工具的能力還有工作效率,協助壯世代來減輕工作的負擔"},{"start":6881.073,"end":6909.292,"text":"所以如果對這個架構的話我覺得在第一個階段的話經濟部推出來的對策從我自己本身來看是非常正確的但是如果整個經濟部這邊對應是這麼的正確的話那剛才吳委員有提過的話要解決壯世代整個問題的話如果大家來看左邊這張圖就是扶養筆要把一些分子把它變成是分母只要分母更多的話"},{"start":6910.874,"end":6921.113,"text":"這個問題可能就會解決的但對應的上一次的公聽會之後剛才吳委員有講過整個在政府各部會所列出來的一些計畫"},{"start":6922.694,"end":6944.677,"text":"一大堆的是零預算一大堆的零預算甚至裡面有幾個是零的比如說文化部、經濟部、國科會這一塊相對性的話現在我來看經濟部是已經有對策了但是怎麼把它編到所謂的預算裡面來推廣來增加壯世代incentive把這個事情做得更好"},{"start":6946.547,"end":6969.564,"text":"好那剛剛有很多的專家學者也在討論了這個是一個跌床教育的一個方式因為已經有很多的法已經有很多法在修了但是今天我們要討論這個公聽會不一樣我們是產業促進跟以前修的那些法的話是不大一樣的既然已經定義什麼是一個產業發展的話"},{"start":6971.789,"end":6997.692,"text":"基本上的話就是有三個方向三個組織一定要建構起來一個是產業的發展產業的發展你就是要去定義所謂的產業的範疇產業的範疇然後有更完善的投資標的第二個它的市場市場性是在哪裡如果市場性它已定義得非常的清楚的時候較對應的下一步的話就是我們的金融政策"},{"start":6998.433,"end":7000.413,"text":"臺灣絕對不是第一個在整個少子化的過程"},{"start":7024.212,"end":7028.987,"text":"在扶養配比的話全世界有兩個國家大概是危機最大的一個是韓國"},{"start":7030.525,"end":7056.944,"text":"一個是台灣那在韓國的話他在2022年的時候已經提出來了整個韓國高齡友善產業發展條例這已定義得非常的清楚他就是從產業產業出發而不是從就業出發就業出發產業出發的話因為只要這個產業夠大的話有很多的壯世代就有可能投入重新回到這個職場"},{"start":7059.085,"end":7078.292,"text":"這個細則的話也就是剛才吳委員提過為什麼我們要立一個法從產業的角度來促進這整個中高齡的產業發展我自己本身在上個星期的話大概也寫了一個論述就是政府怎麼去進行有效的一個引導跟預算的一個編列"},{"start":7079.793,"end":7094.834,"text":"我的訴求也是跟吳委員是一樣的一定要有所謂的專案辦公室因為這是跨部會的事情我們不能再用老的思維來做新的事情做老的思維來做新的事情所以"},{"start":7096.503,"end":7121.619,"text":"這一頁的話大概是我從這兩年來一直在提供的一張圖也就是說壯世代基本法它是一個經濟發展的一個基底一定要從文化的形塑再者從市場的形塑去考慮這兩個議題你考慮到這兩個很重要的東西你立出來一個基本法才有可能會有生命然後無論是壯世代無論是銀髮族的話有人"},{"start":7124.966,"end":7147.202,"text":"有錢有時間的話他就會走向資本的世界有時間有經驗的話他就會走向剛才麥委員講的傳承那如果我們可以從資本從傳承這個基底上面去考慮這個壯世代的基本法的設定的話我覺得這個法律法條才會有他的生命謝謝"},{"start":7152.102,"end":7164.158,"text":"謝謝陳執行長那接續我們請傅崇禧教授發言傅教授講完之後我們休息6分鐘接著時間6分鐘"},{"start":7167.029,"end":7190.712,"text":"主席再度各位先進我是臺灣大學社會工作系副總席今天很榮幸有機會來這邊談一談我自己個人的前見那這個法案看起來是關乎我們今天很多各領域的學者專家跟前輩有兼容的面向就業的面向產業科技等等之類那我個人的背景因為是在社會福利這個領域所以我想說就我這個領域的角度來提一些我個人目前的一些想法"},{"start":7192.474,"end":7208.096,"text":"今天其實主管單位有列了三個,前面有前景有提出來,三個很明確的問題第一個就是說這個觀念思維是不是要改變,我想這個應該是沒有人有什麼疑慮或者說不同意見,大家認為說其實這個觀念一定要做一些翻轉"},{"start":7208.977,"end":7224.939,"text":"那事實上我們可以看到說這個是一個政府文件裡面的一個說明這不可否認的人口高齡化的確對社會發展帶來一些嚴峻的挑戰但也不應該忽視的是它為社會帶來的發展機會那這一段文字是在高齡社會白面書裡面所以過去幾年"},{"start":7225.68,"end":7247.849,"text":"那行政部門很大費周章的,很各個領域的專家學者去做一些演繹、做一些討論,就產生了是這一部高齡社會白皮書。裡面其實就很清楚的去做這個,要把這個觀念的翻轉,當然是未來我們面對高齡化社會一個很重要的一個切入的面向。那所以,意思是說這個是本來我感覺到也蠻,這個樂觀期生也蠻期待、樂觀看待的,政府確實已經開始有這樣的思維。"},{"start":7249.77,"end":7272.875,"text":"那第二個問題也是我們主辦單位之前提供的就是說那是不是要各部會一起來齊心協力這邊提到說原來好像只有衛福部是不是要各部會當然我想這個也沒有人會去質疑它的重要性那事實上同樣的在這一部高聯社的白皮書裡面它列了15個部會的業務在這邊所以說衛福部、原民會等等這些大家覺得"},{"start":7273.215,"end":7273.235,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7297.094,"end":7297.234,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7313.579,"end":7336.766,"text":"這個各部會一共編了一千多億的預算那所以剛剛有一些先例比較說好像有些計畫沒有錢好像有些計畫沒有立法沒有在強制執行我覺得應該會有這確實是也可能會有這樣的一個狀況但是就我們從110年通過高電池百比數我個人是覺得說看到這樣的一個翻轉看到這樣的一個新的一個途徑的策略跟各部會的一個協力我個人覺得是一個蠻好的開始"},{"start":7337.426,"end":7358.033,"text":"這當然只是一個開始,因為就我理解說當初其實各部會在討論的時候,很多部會可能也還沒有很嚴肅的意識到說該不會是跟我有關。那所以當現在開始有這樣的一個機制,有這樣的一個政府很官方的一個計畫,而且很重要的一個各個實現的步驟,跟組協辦單位都很明確的翻譯之下,那我相信這是一個很好的開始。"},{"start":7359.156,"end":7379.685,"text":"那第三個議題總辦單位提出來就是說那需不需要一個特定的立法那這部分我倒是有不一樣的比較保留的想法那我的想法為什麼會這樣子想那我大概提出一些我自己的一些想法第一個就是說壯世代就是說確實是在媒體上面常常會看到但是你說的壯世代跟我說的壯世代是不是一樣"},{"start":7381.894,"end":7395.591,"text":"我們剛剛有人提到說上週有一個壯世代調查各位去Google都很方便上週的壯世代是幾歲?45歲所以你跟一個45歲的講你壯世代你跟一個80歲的講你壯世代大家的想像不太一樣"},{"start":7396.292,"end":7418.479,"text":"過去我們可以看到說,很多的人都想要提出來不同的新的一個名稱,壯世代、XY世代、G世代、銀灰世代那這不是只有臺灣,國會也是一樣,國際上Civic Generation、Third Age,第三階段的人生等等那這個大概都沒有形成共識,所以大概我們沒有看到說這個就變成是好像大家覺得說老這個或是Age的這個名稱,大家都覺得不太理想,沒有錯"},{"start":7419.139,"end":7421.321,"text":"國際上還是一樣我們常常很多資料很多討論跟國際接軌確實是這個分類大概是我們不喜歡這個名稱但是我們沒有說要去推翻65歲"},{"start":7441.94,"end":7471.109,"text":"是一個生涯階段因為我們現在很多的制度都跟65歲結合所以如果我們把這個如果我們不改變這個社會結構是立了一個新的法改了一個新的名稱其實這個很難有一個根本性的改變除非我們把老人福利法整個翻轉把退休制度65歲全部的去翻轉我們65歲當作一個生命界限生涯階段的一個現實的所有的制度所有的法規完全需要翻修那如果用一個新的名稱的話那原來的結構沒有根本性的改變我想這個可能還是相當的有限"},{"start":7473.43,"end":7497.08,"text":"另外就是說 前面有前面你提到說其實65歲以上的人是一個意識性很高的所以我們在常常做高齡研究都會分65歲跟85歲是很不一樣的都要分老老人 中老人 年輕老人如果未來是55歲以上那個意識性更高啦 怎麼去涵蓋的話我想這個挑戰性會更大就是說怎麼去制定一個政策那另外就是說我們現在其實強大是一個年齡整合就是說不要 這個是以前是覺得你什麼"},{"start":7497.88,"end":7510.892,"text":"年齡階段要做什麼?先是整個打破了,所以盡量地用年齡去切割,你再怎麼切,其實都是一個社會的分化。你65歲切,大家一定覺得不太適當,所以把他切到55歲,可能是接觸到一些新的議題。那另外從社會福利角度來看,"},{"start":7513.474,"end":7541.68,"text":"五十五歲以上的人大概也沒有什麼特別讓他們覺得說好像社福要特別介入這個區塊了那另外最後講一個就是說我等一下回去就要面對大學生我回去教書如果我跟大學生講說立法院很關心你們有一個壯世代要提升他們的資源年輕人會覺得有希望嗎年輕人會覺得說對我們有一個學生小孩了嗎我覺得是這個我倒有點覺得懷疑啦所以我們是不是這個思考很好是不是有什麼不同的角度然後可以更多的討論之後有共識再來做一些立法的決定謝謝"},{"start":7546.103,"end":7548.411,"text":"好 謝謝副教授那我們現在休息6分鐘"},{"start":7592.978,"end":7593.18,"text":"主席"},{"start":7978.985,"end":7984.286,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接續我們請胡志柔秘書長發言好 謝謝我想今天所有的專家學者當中應該是屬我最年輕那我衷心的期盼有一天我可以成為壯世代"},{"start":8008.747,"end":8027.908,"text":"感謝給我們發聲的機會這是我們壯促會224位專家學者共同的心願那麼我想在談到底壯促法是不是應該要推動立法我們應該我想先釐清一個問題可不可以在座的人有人可以告訴我什麼東西叫做正義"},{"start":8030.29,"end":8050.984,"text":"1950年代第三世紀的國家仍然都還沒有justice這樣的一個概念但是他們卻不約而同的把justice放入他們的法典當中那代表什麼意思代表的是說就是他們覺得這是我一個可以追求的價值不管 不好意思因為剛跑了有點喘"},{"start":8054.278,"end":8079.106,"text":"不管我今天我到底我們是不是對正義這些事情有歧義但只要我認為它是一個可以追求的價值我就把它放入我的法典裡面去所以我們可以發覺在整個法體系當中凡是越有價值性的定義它越適合作為所謂的促進法基本法而越是屬於管理性的定義它可以作為權力法作用法比如說老人福利法你今天可不可以告訴我"},{"start":8079.566,"end":8106.767,"text":"為什麼65歲一定要叫老人為什麼不是64歲可以叫老人他一樣會有爭議啊憑什麼我今天80歲我生理症候一樣要叫做老人他一樣會有爭議啊但是權益很重要我必須要有一個操作性的定義我才可以確定我把補助發給誰這樣能夠理解吧這叫做權益法作用法可是基本法促進法就不一樣啦我們翻開文化基本法上面沒有任何一條法條告訴我們文化是什麼"},{"start":8107.507,"end":8131.182,"text":"但是他只要告訴我們台灣的文化是要追求多元族群共和這樣就可以了所以這就是文化基本法它存在的價值這樣能夠理解意識而壯促法今天就是一個促進法當然我們必須要強調的是我們重點是壯世代政策以及壯世代產業這兩個名詞的定義才是最重要的"},{"start":8131.802,"end":8159.383,"text":"壯世代正義任何事情其實沒有關係因為它就是一個我們追求的價值有一天我想成為壯世代壯世代政策我只要能夠確定它是要降低社福負擔的壯世代產業它是為了要推動長壽經濟的有如此清楚的定義我們就可以開始立這個法只要它沒有涉及任何的權益在當然我們退一步來說行政院上次蘇處長過來做答詢的時候他曾經清楚地表示到壯世代是55家這是不夠的"},{"start":8160.123,"end":8178.555,"text":"最好是在後面加個但書人具有生產力消費記者我們非常認同啊我們鼓掌歡迎如果行政院願意提出這樣子的一個版本的話我們樂意追隨那麼講到這邊一定會有人繼續追問但是你講了這麼多壯世代這真的是一個值得追求的價值嗎"},{"start":8179.676,"end":8206.54,"text":"我們必須要瞭解到一個特別的時空背景這個時空背景就是2070年臺灣只要再過46年工作人口697萬我們的撫養老年剛好也是697萬天啊這是什麼樣的一個社會啊為了一個社會人設能夠不改變嗎銀髮族九年臥蟲我只要今天被貼上這個標籤以後我好像永遠就是生活在醫院以及要去醫院的路上我人生沒有任何其他希望我是個可憐人"},{"start":8207.481,"end":8227.62,"text":"可是如果我是壯世代法律賦予我這樣子的一個精神地位我就會知道我還有30年的健康餘命我是個正常人我只是壽命比過去的傳統古人要來得高而已我的生活場域應該是要講究的我的資源應該是可以促進世代循環的這才是立這個法最主要的意義所在那它不值得追求嗎"},{"start":8228.22,"end":8246.269,"text":"行政院也在做媒體也在報答代表他是有社會響應基礎的啊所以接下來我們真正要問的問題是那麼你講了那麼多你們是不是想要把整個衛福體系把它砍掉重練抱歉小的不敢這個我們一直主張的是雙打策略"},{"start":8247.746,"end":8272.495,"text":"壯世代促進法作為補位性政策作為發展性政策你只要知道這是未來國家的一個願景我們願意由法令去支撐它政府相關的作為去支撐它一塊去發展就夠了主體持續的安全網政策這是需要的啊中高齡就業促進法依然要存在啊老人福利法依然存在啊這有什麼不對的嗎權益"},{"start":8273.695,"end":8274.616,"text":"總是有不少專家學者最後一定要問我們"},{"start":8291.331,"end":8318.429,"text":"那既然政府都在做了你還要立法嗎那不會跌床架屋嗎我們必須要說你們就設想一下我相信在座很多人他出生就生存在威權時代如果今天政府跟你講好啊明天我台灣就要開始走向民主了但是請你不要立法請問你會回家睡覺嗎不會吧更何況我們退一步說如果今天行政院他已經起了很好的一個頭"},{"start":8320.09,"end":8341.124,"text":"難道今天我喊要民主明天我台灣就民主了嗎不可能吧我一定要有各種法律的配套上來既然行政院今天已經號稱13個部會做了64項計畫做了非常我們鼓掌啊我們覺得你們為台灣萬世萬代立下了一個好的典範立法我們願意督促立法繼續"},{"start":8343.556,"end":8365.464,"text":"立出一個完整的法追隨行政院讓臺灣的永續典範可以確定下來啊更何況啊剛才不只一個來自各界的專家學者還不只是衛福界的學者而已不管是金融領域的產業領域的市場領域的你今天要建立壯世代的這個教育你總該要建立產業你教育文化也要上來"},{"start":8366.124,"end":8366.504,"text":"謝謝胡秘書長 接下來我們請黃門凱委員發言"},{"start":8399.693,"end":8423.964,"text":"主席各位先進我想今天非常感謝主席能夠安排這個壯世代政策跟產業發展的公聽會其實我們也知道在吳孫成委員以及我們很多委員共同提案支持也希望能夠推動壯世代產業及政策的發展促進法最主要根本在於是我們都希望臺灣現在面臨到的一個問題我們一起努力要來解決跟面對"},{"start":8424.884,"end":8452.897,"text":"同時間在一樓教育文化委員會今天開的是少子女化私校退場機制我們今天這棟大樓一個是少子女化了一個是我們要面臨的是壯世代這就是台灣現在面臨的問題不是嗎2025年20%超過65歲以上的人口五分之一五位裡面有一位是65歲以上的人口這是我們台灣即將面臨的問題而少子女化今年是龍年"},{"start":8453.617,"end":8474.274,"text":"去年我們的出生率創下有史以來最低13萬5000人而今年到現在的統計數字直到年底有可能不到13萬人我們今年會是出生人口最少的一年所以現在面臨到問題我們當然就是要去努力在討論"},{"start":8475.595,"end":8492.962,"text":"其實我們先講說私校的部分我都有一個想法如果說現在私校退場的話那能不能轉型讓他變成是一個我們壯世代的族群可以再去從實學業或是能夠再拿學歷的一個"},{"start":8494.019,"end":8494.199,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8513.809,"end":8514.27,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8533.235,"end":8551.883,"text":"壯世代跟我們一般所謂的這個中高齡現在中高齡不管是就業法不管是這個老人福利法當然都應該要留著都應該要保留但壯世代還有另外更不同的是其實兩個先決條件能夠讓壯世代有底氣一個是有錢一個是有健康"},{"start":8552.623,"end":8572.888,"text":"有錢有健康你講話才有底氣嘛因此我想針對為什麼我們一直強調是說並不是要跌床架屋並不是在現在政府在推動的已經有而是為什麼要做的是政策跟產業要把政策跟產業都跨進來這就不會只是單一部會的事情"},{"start":8573.328,"end":8597.062,"text":"不是衛福部在做衛福部的事不是勞動部在做勞動部的事而是要看到整體的一塊餅因為有五分之一的人口就是壯世代的時候我們當然要共同努力來去推動所以怎麼樣能夠讓我們的壯世代有錢以及怎麼樣讓壯世代有健康讓他去持續的變成是我們社會上的一份子跟助力這才是重點"},{"start":8598.365,"end":8618.124,"text":"如果說講有錢的話第一個部分我提到保本很重要為什麼因為現在就是退休金到底我們退休金的制度老保大家要不要去面對如果說現在的政府告訴我們說撥補就有用的話那我請教軍公教之前的年金為什麼不能用撥補的方式"},{"start":8618.888,"end":8641.035,"text":"那如果說撥補只是延後只是把頭埋在沙子裡面當成是看不見就以為這個事情沒有發生那這樣子我們不就是未來的子孫還是要去面對這個事情嗎因為保本讓真的已經退休的壯世代他能夠有一定的退休金無餘的情況他才能夠有錢才能夠持續永續的生活嗎"},{"start":8642.934,"end":8660.662,"text":"2、就業,如果說他沒有辦法足夠的保本的話,我們怎麼樣能推動壯世代的就業,讓他變成是一個整體的產業發展。良好的友善的就業方案,現在衛福部有在,現在勞動部有在推動了,那但是除了勞動部推動以外,其他相關部會是不是能夠一起進來?"},{"start":8661.863,"end":8685.071,"text":"我就講一個現在大家都在講AI啊AI是下指令我們壯世代的朋友其實他就是很有經驗如果說能夠來去做討論是能夠結合某些行業是能夠用AI搭配我們的壯世代壯世代人有經驗他能夠精準的下達相關的指令讓AI去做相關的一些"},{"start":8685.911,"end":8704.75,"text":"城市相關的一些數據的一個分析是不是就能夠創造一些工作經驗工作就業機會而這些就業機會反而是人類不斷的累積跟人類不斷的一個經驗的一個傳承而無可取代性的這個部分有沒有任何的部會現在去討論"},{"start":8705.811,"end":8706.952,"text":"我覺得防炸非常重要"},{"start":8735.029,"end":8751.382,"text":"面對壯世代的朋友如果說他的退休金或是相關的一些資源被詐騙了他突然間從有錢變沒錢的情況他是不是頓時整個生活整個社會就出了問題而到底我們幾個部會"},{"start":8754.037,"end":8777.86,"text":"對於詐騙的一個打擊為什麼一直強調過去到現在詐騙打擊講了那麼久但是中高齡壯世代的詐騙打擊有沒有更能夠具體以及精準的讓詐騙集團不要針對壯世代的部分我就直接講我們有沒有思考過如果說你詐騙集團騙的是退休金的話加重處分"},{"start":8779.636,"end":8794.273,"text":"因為他是一個完全不可逆的狀況而且是對於這個壯世代來講他的最後一筆人生的一個這個不管是保本金也好不管是他的生活必須也好所以"},{"start":8795.205,"end":8820.522,"text":"我今天提出來這幾個部分我想當然很多各界先進的一個意見等一下我也會剛剛在現場以及我也會在辦公室持續的透過直播跟大家繼續的來了解但我更需要的是政府部門一定要正視這樣的一個問題這不是只是單一部會雖然我們今天在衛環委員會但這絕對不是只是衛福部絕對不是勞動部絕對不是只是單一部會的問題"},{"start":8822.003,"end":8829.634,"text":"而是希望是能夠政府一個更宏觀的態度去看我們現在面臨到台灣的人口結構以及我們面臨到怎麼樣能夠讓產業發展"},{"start":8831.425,"end":8831.465,"text":"謝謝孟凱委員"},{"start":8859.059,"end":8862.001,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 各位朋友大家午安"},{"start":8879.594,"end":8906.606,"text":"今天非常榮幸有這個機會再跟各位分享一下我對壯世代這個法案的一些心得看法首先我覺得壯世代這個名詞就是一個顛覆跟一個先進的潮流的一個名詞第二個今天在座的各位我們有沒有想過我們為什麼今天會在這裡都是為了一個壯世代而來"},{"start":8907.904,"end":8924.557,"text":"所以我們在這邊那在座的各位其實我們某一個形式上來講也都是壯世代剛剛聽了那麼多的學者專家委員所論述的我覺得都非常的好非常的有內容也都有非常的有道理"},{"start":8925.925,"end":8946.439,"text":"所以我不想增加太多的我個人的看法有關於論述方面而是從感性方面來跟各位闡述一下我對壯世代的看法所以我講的此時的一個心得就是我們今天要做的是一個觀念的共鳴"},{"start":8947.79,"end":8948.25,"text":"共鳴及情感"},{"start":8975.987,"end":8977.809,"text":"一生當中有怕什麼嗎?怕死嗎?怕老嗎?怕病嗎?怕臥床嗎?怕沒錢嗎?還是怕被歧視?被標籤化?還是怕變成我們孩子的負擔?所以我告訴各位我們人到最後就會發現我很怕臥床"},{"start":9003.834,"end":9003.934,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9021.547,"end":9021.667,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9043.727,"end":9061.875,"text":"在財富上面都能夠有一個更好的一個法案更好的一個策略來完成這些事情所以現在各部份的各行其事所以我們需要有一個更整合性的一個方案來處理這些事情所以我從一個公共衛生的角度來跟各位報告"},{"start":9062.495,"end":9062.655,"text":"社會福利及產業發展"},{"start":9082.558,"end":9090.643,"text":"才有辦法變成一個健康的社會 健康的臺灣這個時候我們才不會怕我們有一天老了我們不會怕我們一天要臥床很久我們才不會怕我們有一天我們錢不夠了所以從這個角度來上我們覺得現在的這個壯世代它是一個年齡的整合它是一個產業的促進它可以創造更大的人生的價值跟貢獻的時候"},{"start":9112.157,"end":9112.377,"text":"壯世代政策及產業發展公聽會"},{"start":9127.054,"end":9127.194,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9149.938,"end":9170.832,"text":"勇敢的一個世代的延續而且這個壯世代我個人覺得他不是單一的年齡的分割而是一個一連串永續的年齡的一個呈現他是永遠的壯下去的永遠的是健康的下去的所以呢我們要做的另外一件事情就是變成一個有為有創造力的世代"},{"start":9171.312,"end":9193.913,"text":"有為有創造力的時代來減少年輕人的負擔剛剛論述了很多年輕人少子化跟年紀大的這個族群我們如何讓兩方都能夠共好都兩方都能夠往中間邁進變成一個強而有力壯大的一個世代一個族群那這樣子的雙方都共盟齊力"},{"start":9194.372,"end":9221.503,"text":"所以透過健康促進保健養生讓我們的生命雖然能夠達到有一天到達了100歲但是我們的年齡我們的年齡是100歲但是我們仍然是如壯年般一般的健康所以我們在公共衛生我們30年前就提出來了一句話一句口號就是我們公共衛生整個臺灣的健康就是要朝向"},{"start":9222.063,"end":9222.463,"text":"拜臨壯年邁進"},{"start":9251.647,"end":9263.111,"text":"好走我相信在座的各位你們還有什麼期待嗎在這邊大聲小聲的最後還是希望好死好走我今天快起死了"},{"start":9263.916,"end":9283.916,"text":"會議員："},{"start":9284.056,"end":9284.397,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9295.418,"end":9295.898,"text":"一念天堂 一念地獄"},{"start":9324.504,"end":9332.71,"text":"謝謝韓教授以重新長接續我們請明道大學前校長林柏文歡迎"},{"start":9339.378,"end":9366.381,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位我們行政院的長官還有各位會的專家學者剛才我們唐老師說人生罷會這是一定會到的時間所以要有一個新的思維那我今天用很短的時間其實我剛從一所退場的大學結束掉我是部里派我去結束明道大學但是相對的"},{"start":9367.202,"end":9387.212,"text":"我覺得最更重要的是怎麼樣讓教育這一塊補上我們未來所提到的百歲人生所以第一個今天公聽會的第一個議題說要不要有新思維當然要但是從教育這一塊終生教育是抗老的最好的解放"},{"start":9388.431,"end":9411.886,"text":"我們可以看到當一個包括現在少子化的浪潮大學在面臨退場包含高中職在退場的時候這是一個迫在眉睫的問題是一個政策的問題所以美國在1971年代就開始思考到如剛才唐老師所說的如何健康的老化活躍的老化所以活化在一個什麼樣的環境裡面"},{"start":9412.446,"end":9435.498,"text":"就是一個學習型的社會學習型的臺灣所以從這個角度上來看美國有提出所謂UBRC就是大學跟退休社區連結的模式所以我提供這樣的一個模式的思考這個思維來去提供我們今天在壯世代在立法過程裡面對中正學習需求可以豐富我們社交"},{"start":9436.218,"end":9459.406,"text":"文化創新還有智慧的傳承那這個概念主要就是在安德魯卡爾他所在2006年提出那時候主要是先從密西根安阿貝爾的校區裡面提造這樣的一個觀念那後來呢陸陸續續的把business model把它架進來之後呢這個目前美國已經有100多所退休的社區是跟大學做連結的"},{"start":9460.807,"end":9467.483,"text":"我自己在基金會的時候我們做了一個分類我抽了48所大學美國的大學去做分類就發現"},{"start":9468.959,"end":9497.042,"text":"在二這個項目上就是退休社區跟學習的連結在產業的規模上是最豐富的那目前持續在增加之中所以從這個角度上來看美國有一個非營利組織叫H2.0他的概念正好符合了今天壯世代提出的一個觀念性思考他把挑戰過去視為現在的機會他把所謂專注在所謂的衛福"},{"start":9497.843,"end":9504.677,"text":"開始提供到不是只有健康而是要活的健康要活的活躍所以要有生活的一個形態"},{"start":9506.173,"end":9529.853,"text":"過去的思維在社福的思維是design for all那現在是應該一個全靈的思考design for all那再來過去是以所謂的社會福利的角度福祉的角度但是我們現在政府的負擔不可能再做大政府所以要based driven的這樣過程那第5個就提到所謂的老化在哪裡不是在機構老化"},{"start":9530.453,"end":9530.753,"text":"社會福利及產業發展公聽會議"},{"start":9559.99,"end":9582.131,"text":"在CCRC過去的觀念裡面會變成CCFC所以從這個角度相信我剛才呂市長也對這部分都非常的一個重視那因此他簡單的主要一個元素這個概念的元素就是把退休社區跟終身學習跟活躍老化充分的結合在一起而形成具有一個產業規模的方式"},{"start":9582.811,"end":9599.886,"text":"University Palace in Western LafayetteBoston College杜克大學也是用這個角度去思考第2個問題是否只有社福領域需不需要其他部會協力"},{"start":9601.667,"end":9615.821,"text":"那我這邊提供兩個案例一個是日本的後生省跟日本的國土交通省的合作第二個是剛才我們提過的在韓國的保健福祉部跟經濟部訂定的高齡友善產業的發展條例這兩個方案"},{"start":9617.963,"end":9634.668,"text":"這兩個方案的概念就是不是單一個部會而必須要透過立法的途徑在日本裡面他是因為後生省的一個借戶保險的壓力太大所以他主動找到國土交通省說你們控制了那麼多的住宅"},{"start":9635.248,"end":9654.158,"text":"能不能把它活化友善老人家友善高齡者能夠租賃所以從94年這種倡議之後一直到2011年政治所謂高齡者住宅法復服務高齡友善住宅成立之後把產業的規模加進來急速的成長那這也可提供給我們未來在社會住宅政策上的一個參考"},{"start":9655.499,"end":9680.334,"text":"第2個所以你看到從1998年我把它整理出來到2011年到修正高齡者安定確保法之後創設副服務高齡者住宅所以我們現在對社會住宅是鎖定在65歲但是那是少部分加上把產業機制拉進來我覺得是更具有把住宅政策跟福祉政策這是日本已經發生並且透過立法才產生的案例那第2個剛才我在把前面的"},{"start":9680.994,"end":9681.655,"text":"高齡友善產業促進法"},{"start":9697.057,"end":9720.025,"text":"包含雖然目前最積極有成效的是有關食品所以從這個角度上來看最後一個問題就是說到底要不要透過立法那我的答案是不管名稱上大家有沒有什麼樣的共識但是就法案本身的性質來講我們在公共政治的分析裡面這個法案具有人口老化的急迫性跟社會發展未來性的公共議題"},{"start":9721.005,"end":9744.575,"text":"所以要透過授權行政立法的方式讓各部門要依法行政有所遵循二 這個法案是非屬權益性法案剛才我們秘書長提到是以公共事務先驅議題的框架採政策倡議所以引領行政立法公司之後必立授權行政機關相互協力解決公共問題"},{"start":9745.555,"end":9770.483,"text":"所以眾上為了統一事權我們也建議這個法案假使能夠有共識立法的時候可以參照行政院社會福利推動委員會設置要點這是在張俊雄張院長的時候他接見臺灣社會福利在民國90年他一聲令下就在行政院開始設立這個委員會所以我們希望能夠在這裡透過專責辦公室來重鑿壯世代各項部會重要政策的研擬跟督導以上報告謝謝"},{"start":9786.811,"end":9795.254,"text":"主席、各位委員、還有各位先進、各位女士先生、大家午安非常高興有這個機會來共同討論有關於這個雙世代立法的議題"},{"start":9799.875,"end":9806.451,"text":"那麼壯世代這個議題提出來當然是一個很好我們社會上應該去注意的概念"},{"start":9808.066,"end":9835.838,"text":"這個什麼世代什麼世代實際上我們都知道像1990年以前1980年中間出生的人我們稱之為Y世代1990年到2000年我們出生的叫Z世代現在大家都用手機我們講手機世代當然對這樣的一個世代議題它都有特殊性我們都必須要去注意"},{"start":9836.578,"end":9837.799,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及產業發展公聽會"},{"start":9866.758,"end":9869.561,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及產業發展"},{"start":9888.478,"end":9912.952,"text":"目前來講有21個條文除了第一條立法的目的跟第二條用詞的名詞之外那麼其他的這18條的條文當中啊大部分是一個遜式的規定比較看不出來它是有什麼樣一個作用那麼這是我看到就是說壯世代要立法的情況之下先天上有這樣的一個存在的問題"},{"start":9914.537,"end":9915.438,"text":"中高齡及高齡者的就業促進法"},{"start":9931.366,"end":9944.744,"text":"這個法律定出來之後它基本上區分成兩大區塊一個是所謂中高齡者也就是45歲以上到65歲以上所謂的中高齡者以及65歲以上的高齡者"},{"start":9945.945,"end":9966.735,"text":"那麼它立法的內容當中非常具體基本上有六個立法的一個政策第一個是禁止年齡的歧視第二個是穩定就業措施第三個是促進失業的一個就業第四個支持退休後再就業以及推動引髮人才的服務以及第六個開發就業機會"},{"start":9969.156,"end":9988.461,"text":"一百零九年十四到一百一十二年的時間短短這幾年我們就促進了這個中高齡的就業率達到百分之六十六點零五我們的平均就業率才不到六十億所以基本上這個立法來講的話推動來講已經達到具體的成效"},{"start":9990.763,"end":10003.056,"text":"高齡者也就是說65歲以上的更突破了9.89也就是說實施這個法律當中每一年都增加了10萬個就業人口這個就業來講的話勞動部在112年到114年再加強這個計畫推動了所謂的就業高齡者跟高齡者就業促進的一個方案"},{"start":10013.786,"end":10037.387,"text":"那麼可見這個方案推動的情況下可以再促進更多的就業所以如果說是只針對45歲到65歲的工作者來講的話我們這個法律跟這個政策來講既具體又有具體的成效所以有沒有必要再去做一個立法定出一個55歲以上的看起來似乎沒有太大必要"},{"start":10038.288,"end":10052.684,"text":"即使我們講55歲以上到65歲以上的這些人他在高齡需要的特別保護那行政院已經訂出了112年到115年因應超高齡社會的一個對策方案"},{"start":10054.212,"end":10078.524,"text":"這個方案內容各位都可以下載在國發會衛福部你們都可以下載這個方案這個方案實際上並不如有些委員講說他沒有具體內容有非常具體的內容各位可以請看不僅15個部會各有執掌而且他們分配的一個預算都寫得非常清楚如何執行還有他執行的KPI的一個檢視都有"},{"start":10080.867,"end":10104.39,"text":"總共花了在4年當中有經費1206億可見這個計畫來講也能夠推動一定的具體成效所以從這些方面來講我們對照了這個雙世代的立法當中第一個立法目的來講的話因為跨不同世代卻沒有針對不同世代當中去研擬具體的內容"},{"start":10105.211,"end":10120.783,"text":"而立法內容都是遜式規定,看不出它有具體的方案跟成效第三個,立法的內容來講的話,很難執行,因為看不出它需要的是什麼所以基本上,雖然立出這個法來講,用意很好"},{"start":10121.403,"end":10135.347,"text":"但是從我們這5、6年的發展來講已經有具體的行政計畫似乎這個立法來講的話在目前來講並不是那麼迫切跟需要這是以上我對於這個立法當中提供的建議以上謝謝"},{"start":10151.991,"end":10157.839,"text":"今天這個議題的公聽會非常重要透過不管是產官、學以及在社會實務工作者大家一起來討論要怎麼樣去解決我們的少子化"},{"start":10169.275,"end":10170.035,"text":"總人口數將會突破20%"},{"start":10198.971,"end":10212.991,"text":"將會突破20%換句話說每五個人當中就有一個人是超過65歲而且我國在45歲以上的人口也將在明年45歲以上的人口我們在明年會突破半數也會達到51%"},{"start":10214.793,"end":10231.825,"text":"如果照這樣子的速度我們再往後去推算到了2028年的時候我們看到15歲到64歲的工作適合工作的目前我們政府所規劃的所統計的適合工作的年齡人口會將從目前總人口數的69%會掉到66.3%這是史上第一次會"},{"start":10241.314,"end":10262.599,"text":"會跌破了三分之二這個數字讓我們看到我們的人口紅利我們的人口紅利的這個時間已經要結束了因為我們史上會衝破三分之二我們社會會沒有充沛的青壯勞力人力的資源會面臨的整個重整"},{"start":10265.62,"end":10288.316,"text":"所以因此我再次強調因為少子化跟因為缺工的問題中高年齡者未來會成為工作職場很重要的主力那壯世代會成為職場上熱門的熱搜關鍵字因此政府你要怎麼樣去協助這些壯世代可以提升我們的勞動參與跟維持產業的一個競爭力這是非常重要的一個關鍵時刻"},{"start":10292.879,"end":10314.091,"text":"那麼是不是可以讓年長的員工慢慢的降低工時這樣子可以讓他們在正式退休之前他可以將他的寶貴的經驗以及身心的準備也可以讓我們職場中年輕人有更多的機會有更多的機會來接手這些工作這個都是要提供給我們政府的思考"},{"start":10314.631,"end":10339.963,"text":"當然政府針對於中高年齡層超高年齡層有所作為但是實際上的數字告訴我們就是剛剛本席所說明的這個數字我們似乎還有很大的一個討論空間跟執行空間所以我要跟著說跟著全球的這個高年化日益的加劇的時候我們我國我們的高年化這個速度已經是"},{"start":10342.904,"end":10351.308,"text":"全球第三塊我們已經是全球第三塊在這樣的情況之下隨著我們的醫療的發達國內平均餘命越來越長所以我給大家一個數字報告從2023年我們看到國內的平均壽命較前年增加0.39歲"},{"start":10361.193,"end":10384.252,"text":"達到平均男女軍訓是80.23%其中男性76.94%女性83.74%所以我請男性要加油但是國內平均愚民有一個重點不健康的愚民也逐漸在升高顯示我們目前的統計不健康的愚民是多少?8.5年"},{"start":10385.973,"end":10401.532,"text":"那顯示活的老但是不見得他是生活的好所以如果壯世代的國民沒有辦法有好的健康狀態那就會成為醫療社會以及社福以及家庭的重大的負擔"},{"start":10402.233,"end":10424.089,"text":"因此我認為政府有必要積極的來作為有所作為讓壯世代的人可以活著健康讓社福負擔可以減少所以因此我們看到壯世代我們依照人口的統計跟社會面向壯世代佔台灣的三分之一人口但是他掌控了他握有了三分之二的財富"},{"start":10424.87,"end":10425.05,"text":"公聽會議的主席"},{"start":10454.77,"end":10455.531,"text":"政府有所作為"},{"start":10470.327,"end":10470.347,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10486.644,"end":10486.664,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10517.092,"end":10518.655,"text":"謝謝楊委員接續我們請社團法人勞動發展協會理事長辛秉隆"},{"start":10533.106,"end":10560.009,"text":"主席還有在座各位先進大家午安那非常高興有這個機會就這樣的一個非常重要的一個議題來參加這樣的公聽會提供我一些個人的意見那在這個公聽會裡面有提了三個討論提綱上前兩個提綱是非常容易回答的那我非常容易回答的原因是基本上第一個是說我們有沒有需要改變高齡政策思維的需求當然有當然有那有沒有需要其他部會協力當然需要"},{"start":10560.709,"end":10586.301,"text":"那問題是大家從剛才有些先進的發言裡面好像可能是為了凸顯自己的立論的依據然後講政府好像都沒有怎麼改變我們的政策思維都沒有怎麼改變其他部位都沒有在協助事實上不會是這樣子的我相信很多的政策思維已經在改變了那很多的政府相關部位的政策已經參與協助了只是說可能做得不夠好做得不夠好那這樣的話我們就會進入到我們第三個提當做得不夠好的情況底下"},{"start":10586.841,"end":10608.049,"text":"需不需要叫立法來強化那首先針對這個議題我更覺得有幾個部分來談第一個你認為不夠好的是什麼那雖然剛才吳委員提出一個洋洋灑災一個投影片可是這些東西到底是真的是不夠好還是怎樣我不曉得那到底哪些地方不夠好那不夠好可不可以透過另一個專法就來解決"},{"start":10608.905,"end":10625.419,"text":"我想這是要去看要不要訂專法的一個非常重要的依據那我個人認為以我所也參與的部分是在就業部分事實上我們的銀髮族不想用銀髮族用壯世代都可以那他的最大的就業障礙就在年齡歧視就是年齡歧視"},{"start":10626.448,"end":10654.899,"text":"那雖然上我們的中高年級高齡者就業專法已經有規定不能有年齡歧視甚至於我們把什麼叫年齡歧視做個非常清楚的界定但是這個法通過了以後年齡歧視的問題還是普遍存在還是普遍存在所以要解決年齡歧視絕對不是我定一個法就可以解決的是要有一些法則是要去落實那在這次的所提出來的這個專法裡面呢針對年齡歧視這部分只是說不能有年齡歧視"},{"start":10655.68,"end":10681.393,"text":"也就是它對於這個如果去防止年齡歧視禁止年齡歧視並沒有更大的琢磨那如果這種情況底下如果這個法通過了好像問題就解決了那這樣反而會把我們目前所看到的年齡歧視的問題還是繼續存在所以我是覺得這個土法不足以自行我非常認同剛才我先進提到的我們要回到以人為本位也就是針對我們要解決的問題用什麼方法來解決它是最有效的"},{"start":10681.813,"end":10697.209,"text":"第1個專法是不是可以解決我是覺得這個我是存保留的那當然對於這個專法本身它的內容剛才那個劉仕豪院長已經提到了我也非常認同這個法案裡面我覺得比較具體的大概就是定義什麼叫壯世代第二個我們要成立一個專案辦公室"},{"start":10698.049,"end":10721.224,"text":"這方面是每年要做些什麼事情然後其他就是一些訓示性的這部分我大概認同剛才劉委員的意見針對剛才所講的第一個定義壯世代事實上壯是一個有個價值排名端的一個名詞我定55歲是壯世代然後上剛才有記者問我說老師那年輕世代要不要定一個專法那他叫什麼世代"},{"start":10722.355,"end":10722.575,"text":"我特別要框起來齁"},{"start":10751.366,"end":10765.663,"text":"勞保條例的第58條第2項第2款及第5款的規定我特別去查了一下這第5款講的是什麼是當你所從事的工作是有危險有問題的話你可以提早退休55歲退休"},{"start":10767.635,"end":10793.04,"text":"這是以提早退休那這個東西跟我們要立法的目的然後用這個立法目的所切割的年齡我不曉得之間的關聯性在哪裡也就是為什麼要用55歲為什麼不是50歲為什麼不是60歲而是55歲因為我還想要強調如果這個法真的要達到政策效果一定有些政策要去提供政策提供的時候你這個法所框的政策對象就是在這個政策裡面的受益者"},{"start":10793.92,"end":10804.563,"text":"那沒有在你這裡面的就不是受益者那在這種情況底下你的年齡怎麼切就一定要有非常強的論述現在大家對這個壯世代沒有在乎他怎麼切割是因為我們還看不到後面的胡蘿蔔當我看到後面的胡蘿蔔的時候很多的廠商很多的調工就想那為什麼我們沒有被框在這裡面"},{"start":10815.666,"end":10831.977,"text":"所以這個時候為什麼用55歲我覺得不能只用個勞保條例第幾條、第幾條、第幾項就這樣一筆帶過我覺得一定要有非常強的論述我想這是第一個第二個是說要不要訂個辦公室我坦白講我覺得齁如果我們現有的整合機制"},{"start":10832.95,"end":10854.837,"text":"不能work 我不認為訂了專案辦公室就能work為什麼 因為人還是一樣的人一樣的人還是用院長來當還是用政務員來當副召集等等之類的好 如果我們認為既有的機制不能work為什麼訂了專案辦公室他就能work我覺得主要還是在於主席試著有沒有把這問題當成一個問題那你說我用立法就強制他"},{"start":10855.643,"end":10878.061,"text":"可是說法院沒有什麼就像剛剛講這訓示多嘛並沒有說你一定要採取什麼樣的作為嘛所以我個人認為這個可能還是達不到他要想達到的一個效果啦齁那在另外就是說我們說第18條裡面有提到說我們要訂個壯世代人口政策白皮書我想那個人口兩個字是可以拿掉的就是壯世代白皮書政策白皮書啦因為好像又回到人口那邊去了"},{"start":10880.246,"end":10885.497,"text":"這個法會給大家有不同的解讀剛才有先進提到這個法是一個產業發展的法為什麼這個法會大家變成一個產業發展法"},{"start":10890.937,"end":10911.394,"text":"也就是說從各位以上以略先進的發言來講就表示大家對這個法真的不是那麼清楚所以未來要來做討論的時候可能需要把這個法的內容做更具體的描述更具體的定位它是不是一個產業發展的政策一個促進法還是個什麼樣的法 可能要講清楚我想以上的發言謝謝"},{"start":10916.047,"end":10928.131,"text":"謝謝新理事長那接續我們請華梵大學AI推廣中心主任柴本橋老師這是我的第三人生新的職位這邊問一下剛才"},{"start":10941.88,"end":10965.823,"text":"老盲秘書長這邊提的意見就是說老人家都是怎麼死的很多是悶死的我舉個例子我太太的舅舅在中崗他65歲要退休可是他退休前就看到了很多他的前輩呢65歲退休整天悶在家裡隱隱沒事然後68歲就走了本來都整天好好的生龍活虎結果退休之後就悶死了"},{"start":10966.463,"end":10980.848,"text":"所以他就很害怕他趕快開始找一些時候所以他現在在退休在烘焙咖啡然後在賣咖啡所以我們真的不是說只要做長照攝服照顧這些失能的老人就好"},{"start":10982.569,"end":11004.844,"text":"政策區分的對象就是年齡是最基本的一個條件但是呢他們接下來生活的意願跟他們的能力我們要區分好這時候會有不同的政策有不同的人來負責所以我很早之前就提出了這張圖就是說我們區分成這四個象限現有的長照政策只是其中一小塊而已"},{"start":11006.192,"end":11024.152,"text":"那我們其他這幾塊要做的事情包括什麼呢?潮澳政府已經是衛福部在做投資理財是金管會在做的像我的岳母她今年75歲了她十幾年前退休的時候終於用了一生的積蓄買了房子可是呢銀行說對不起房貸只能貸到75歲"},{"start":11027.055,"end":11048.856,"text":"他去年就還完房貸了他說現在一棟房子房貸還完了那我接下來除了等我死了以後留個兒子我還能做什麼所以呢我就找了銀行理財專員說你可以做理財貸款然後呢這個錢拿出來你如果不要風險高的話剛才也有提到說老人家不能讓他風險太高嘛你就買債券"},{"start":11050.317,"end":11061.338,"text":"那剛好我們銀行現在可以說拿去買外國政府債券因為臺灣的政府公債利率很低一點多而已可是外國政府公債可以到4、5%"},{"start":11063.257,"end":11085.936,"text":"那你這個貸款呢是2.2%然後這樣中間就有利差而且國外收入呢現在我們政府很有善的提高了免稅額到750萬所以你這個收入免稅然後你付我們銀行的貸款利率又這麼低你這個房子放在這裡就幫你賺錢那剛好彌補你那個18%被砍掉的部分這樣子"},{"start":11088.641,"end":11111.656,"text":"對於說勞動部、經濟部現在在說我們可以讓這些上了年紀的壯士來回到職場事實上很多人也有一些擔憂就是說我們好不容易等到一些冗員年滿65要讓他退休掉了你現在把他放寬讓他可以不退那更麻煩所以我們寧可怎麼樣呢就是退休還是讓他退退完之後我們再把他聘回來"},{"start":11113.097,"end":11134.66,"text":"這個政府都不用擔心民間企業都會想出辦法解決的不需要政府操心重點就是說你不要讓企業增加負擔然後另外給他們一些誘因像前一陣子通過的法律讓他薪資可以抵稅抵更多這些就是很好的方向一毛錢都不要花政府的錢民間企業自然會想出辦法來解決"},{"start":11136.854,"end":11161.755,"text":"那接下來最重要的是教育部今天針對教育部來了可是教育部好像不在這裡不過沒有關係這個slide我相信會傳給他們那壯世代很希望的是一個人生受到肯定很多人過去呢他學非所用就是說或者說不是他的興趣但是為了工作他去念了一個學位出來然後工作了這麼久退休他想換跑道"},{"start":11162.395,"end":11182.532,"text":"所以我們希望能夠給他一個機會再去學新的東西而不是只是一個推廣教育那種社區大學來學一些有的沒有的而是真的是在大學裡面設立等同學士學位以上的這些學程"},{"start":11183.072,"end":11197.951,"text":"那碩士博士我們不用擔心因為有能力本來就可以上所以我們要做的是開放大學部的學位呢讓壯世代他不需要像一般高中畢業生那麼嚴格的入學資格像現在是要高中畢業以上嘛"},{"start":11198.311,"end":11201.872,"text":"國中畢業,現在壯世代差不多都有這個資格了,然後你工作20年以上,你就可以申請大學入學"},{"start":11215.336,"end":11236.624,"text":"然後呢,因為像我上了年紀嘛,念書也念得比較慢,像我現在在臺大法律系上課,一個學期上13個學分我就覺得超累了,所以我們這個休業年限可能要放寬一點,同時呢,這些壯世代人生經驗這麼豐富,我們應該可以讓他抵免一些學分,共同必修你就不要再去難為他了,對不對?"},{"start":11238.663,"end":11267.297,"text":"那最重要就是說在這些課程是真正大學等級的那像推廣教育法第10條說不能用短期密集上課這我們也應該去修改它讓它變成一個常規因為說在老人家也不想說我一個學期那麼長的時間每個禮拜來兩個小時我現在退休你就讓我一次多上一點課嘛早點把它修完同時呢這壯世代學生經驗很豐富他們可以作為對不起喔這個檔案裡面有"},{"start":11267.757,"end":11289.13,"text":"打字錯誤大學部的課程的助教甚至助理教師因為他們這麼豐富的經驗應該要跟大學生分享像我現在在臺大法律系上課就碰到一些小屁孩就是大學就是剛建大學很多事情都不懂不懂得社會人心險惡啊然後還有很多沒沒搞搞這些都是可以跟他們分享的部分"},{"start":11290.567,"end":11316.14,"text":"壯世代學生的優勢呢他們了解現實世界應用需求很多人都說都在責怪大學訓練出來的不符合實用嘛那這個就是壯世代學生可以幫助解決的那同時呢他們比較了解人性很多大學部學生是想的一些專案設計出來的東西其實並不實用他們可以協助學生跟社會真正接軌那剛剛洪孟凱文還提到AI其實"},{"start":11317.901,"end":11346.471,"text":"AI產業現在發展其實碰到一個瓶頸很多人不知道的大家用ChatGPT用得很高興可是呢ChatGPT已經把全世界人類所製造過所有文章全部看完了那下一步要怎麼突破就是有很多這些壯世代還沒有分享出來的人生經驗如果我們在臺灣特別有這個機會把它注入到AI模型學習這些壯世代的經驗這樣我們臺灣做出來的AI會超過世界上其他國家"},{"start":11347.967,"end":11367.677,"text":"那所以我們用這個方法一次解決兩個問題第一個壯世代開創地產商第二個呢大學退場我們樓下正在開會對不對少子化大學要退場很多可是如果我們能夠讓這些大學轉型像現在華梵大學一樣大量的吸收壯世代的學生也可以解決這個問題所以"},{"start":11369.338,"end":11385.487,"text":"我最討厭讓政府多花錢多設辦公室我覺得就是用這些很簡單的放寬法律障礙讓民間企業還有大學能夠放手去做創新的事情這樣子就能夠解決我們社會上很多問題謝謝大家"},{"start":11408.794,"end":11434.622,"text":"歡迎今天各位專家學者的到來還有我們政府部門來分享大家對於這個議題的看法那這個議題我有兩個一個剛剛前面一直在聽壯世代壯世代我也很贊成剛剛前面有專家學者講說那個到底為什麼要55歲那為什麼不要45歲我覺得那到底在學理上可不可以提出一個"},{"start":11436.277,"end":11436.417,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11451.508,"end":11451.768,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":11474.974,"end":11474.994,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11492.645,"end":11521.128,"text":"這個樣的財富靈活回到社會來我認為這個觀點暗藏著對長輩強烈的剝奪感為什麼因為根據近期的經濟學人的報導嬰兒潮跟其他世代比較普遍有累積資產的習慣我們老輩的事實上是這樣而且貧富差距很大所以我不知道說到底現在我們看到的是那一群20%非常有錢的人而以至於要創造這個法還是真的要去"},{"start":11521.97,"end":11542.598,"text":"針對於我們有一群人他事實上是可能凹凹待不因為他有時候不消費不是因為希望把財富傳承給下一代有時候是因為壽命很長他需要留一些錢所以我們應該更關注是不是長輩他們對於維持生活的安定的懷疑跟不安全感所以我們現在今天等一下就來從55歲以上中高齡跟高齡者的觀點來看這件事情"},{"start":11547.93,"end":11575.235,"text":"那在1970年呢事實上還是三角形我們的金字塔那也就是底下的人很多上邊的人很少可是未來走到像今年2024年的時候已經是呈現一個不太一樣底下已經漸漸的少了因為我剛剛去開早產兒基金會的記者會也一面的在提到孩子一直很少的時候我們就很難能夠"},{"start":11578.169,"end":11578.189,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11600.418,"end":11600.438,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11618.618,"end":11620.199,"text":"臺灣社會必須要生活一般一個人"},{"start":11646.008,"end":11672.887,"text":"剪譜的大概是1萬7不要預想到老人他要講長輩他甚至55歲他1萬7的話他55歲他有可能撫養上邊的兩代比如說他自己的爸媽公婆還要養誰阿公阿嬤這就是我現在朋友當中的處境還有他的小孩正值在大學畢業所以到底有沒有更多錢拿來花"},{"start":11674.241,"end":11675.002,"text":"李慧琼議員李慧琼議員"},{"start":11698.686,"end":11723.131,"text":"可能他就很困難如果再要撫養他的長輩的話更困難如果他還有小孩的話那一樣的所以根據這樣子的一個所得來看的話我們認為要能夠拿來投資的真的就只有那個20%超有錢的人所以我們到底是要為這些人去製一部法嗎這個要去考量"},{"start":11723.473,"end":11723.533,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11741.653,"end":11754.174,"text":"聯合國早在1982年就預告 全球高齡化時代會來臨 會經歷一連串的一個倡議所以2002年就已經提出老化的三大目標 叫做長輩要健康參與跟安全"},{"start":11754.918,"end":11770.754,"text":"所以以這樣的角度來看的話具體來說應該是去達到他的生活智力相對的是比較重要的所以反而我們會比較期待是不是提高我們的高勞動的參與率可是目前看起來我們的55歲到59歲勞動參與率是61.97%水年下降65歲以上的話"},{"start":11777.06,"end":11777.08,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11793.649,"end":11810.335,"text":"因為解聘的為什麼因為你是主管你占的薪水比較高那我就請一個年輕的主管我要付出的代價比較低我反而是要去看那個55歲以上到底他們現在呈現的面貌是什麼這也是我在跟勞動部講說是不是應該要去拿出一些數據來看而不是一直在認為說要翻轉翻轉那個促進20%的富裕者來做我們的投資消費我們應該是更關注於這80%55歲以上"},{"start":11823.639,"end":11824.04,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":11847.447,"end":11861.065,"text":"職缺去向長輩招手以外還要去思考我剛剛提的55歲以上的那個勞參的一個問題所以我們期待我們的高齡者不分貧富都應該享有生活輔具跟無障礙"},{"start":11861.872,"end":11861.892,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11879.205,"end":11879.225,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11909.386,"end":11909.526,"text":"黃國昌委員"},{"start":11928.162,"end":11956.154,"text":"謝謝昭偉非常感謝我們的昭偉針對有關於壯世代政策及產業發展召開了今天這場公聽會那非常抱歉因為今天早上在各個委員會都還有蠻多的事情在忙碌的沒有辦法全程的參與但不管怎麼樣今天這場公聽會我希望能夠來發言表達對於我自己也有參與連署的壯世代政策及產業發展促進法這部法律的推動"},{"start":11957.194,"end":11985.107,"text":"今天非常感謝這麼多的專家學者來給我們寶貴的意見要跟大家報告的事情是說這一部《壯世代政策與產業發展促進法》它之所以獲得跨黨派委員的支持是希望在一個專法當中能夠有一個比較完整的架構針對臺灣即將要面臨的超高齡社會在各個層面上能夠由在行政院最高能夠跨部會"},{"start":11986.447,"end":12003.093,"text":"來整個統合相關應該要有的工作當然今天與會非常多的專家學者大家可能所重視可能所認為應該要強調可能是臺灣在接下來的超高齡社會當中我們必須要面臨的各種挑戰"},{"start":12004.013,"end":12026.863,"text":"不管是從照顧不管是從福利不管是從就業不管是從人口結構還是未來勞動力的短缺以及應該要怎麼樣來因應這個超高齡社會在各個不同層面上面我們未來隨著人口結構的改變國家所來所會面臨的重大挑戰我相信"},{"start":12027.783,"end":12047.14,"text":"這些重要寶貴的意見都是我們接下來不管是在法律的制定上面還是政策的推動上面非常非常重要參考的一個基準那壯世代的這個概念我們也非常感謝我們黨團的吳俊成委員從一開始加入立法院以來"},{"start":12048.041,"end":12060.711,"text":"就在各個委員會那積極的不僅僅只是在促進創世代這一個概念或者是名詞被普遍的適用那更重要的事情是說針對我們這一些壯世代"},{"start":12063.573,"end":12077.391,"text":"真的在各個層面上面怎麼能夠在國家的政策上面相關的法規制度上面能夠配合著不管是在社會發展上面的需求就業上面的需求以及未來從"},{"start":12079.654,"end":12094.492,"text":"他們的照顧福利乃至於退休等等對整個國家社會乃至於我們年輕的下一代所會造成的衝擊那當然法案在剛推出的時候可能有各個條文在內容"},{"start":12095.836,"end":12106.246,"text":"或者是在廣度上都有需要值得再檢討再修正再精進的地方這也是為什麼今天非常感謝趙偉特別排了這場公聽會來聆聽各位學者專家"},{"start":12111.01,"end":12136.098,"text":"以及各界的代表大家寶貴的意見我相信今天大家在公聽會上面所提出來的意見我們都會虛心的聆聽作為下一個階段在推動這個法律的時候有修正有補充的必要作為立法者這都是我們在接下來整個法案審議的時候必須要去做到的事情"},{"start":12136.838,"end":12161.897,"text":"再次感謝這麼多的專家學者還有行政機關的代表來這個委員會給我們指導讓我們在下一個階段整個法案的推動上希望在這個會期能夠順利的完成二讀跟三讀之後能夠對我們臺灣的壯世代乃至於整個社會都能夠產生積極正面的注意以上謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":12165.219,"end":12166.4,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員給你們強大的壓力最後我們請陳清惠委員發言"},{"start":12176.851,"end":12197.489,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝召委排這個議程也感謝許多學者專家的出席還有官員們的出席我是陳金輝醫師所以在我的病人族群裡面其實他們有三分之一要面臨壯世代的這個重返職場尤其是婦女會有這樣子的問題常常會跟我討論"},{"start":12198.87,"end":12216.257,"text":"很高興今天我有機會來參加壯世代政策與產業發展的公聽會在高齡化的社會成為常態的今天針對55歲以上我們國民的想像也應該隨著人均餘命的延長而改變那我剛有提到因為我是做婦產科的所以"},{"start":12217.237,"end":12242.389,"text":"現在我們生育的年紀其實也不斷的在往後延真的會有看到40以上45以上50以上才做了父母的這樣子的族群所以我們為了促進國家發展國民的健康生活以及避免年齡歧視我們在衛生福利勞動還有經濟發展等政策上都希望藉由這個機會來重新思考才能面對超高齡社會的來臨"},{"start":12243.59,"end":12258.924,"text":"首先我個人很有興趣是想聊一下壯世代的就業國發會的人口推估報告明年就會步入超高齡的社會也就是說老年人人口的比例將佔全台灣的五分之一"},{"start":12259.625,"end":12286.568,"text":"中研院有發表一個臺灣勞工記刊的研究就指出現在國民也花更多時間就學所以就業的時間更晚50歲以上國民的勞動參與率急速的下降中我們更應該思考要如何促進壯世代的就業尤其我們面對AI互聯網科技勞動環境受到數位科技的改變下高齡者就業的想像又更加的不同了"},{"start":12287.108,"end":12306.781,"text":"先前雖然行政院有推動中高齡者及高齡者就業促進專法以及活力老化的政策可是中高齡高齡者的勞參率改善的效果有限所以面對壯世代的就業我認為政府還應該要做的更多而且更多的調整"},{"start":12308.062,"end":12322.014,"text":"104人力銀行發布過中高齡就業的趨勢報告該報告指出企業多數擔心中高齡勞工薪水要求過高所以不敢徵才但其中也談到壯世代續留職場的因素"},{"start":12322.634,"end":12343.6,"text":"除了經濟需求之外其實大多數考慮的是希望繼續與社會產生連結那維持他的身心健康還有貢獻社會等等事實上他重視的優先是工作地點內容還有工作的氛圍友善再來才是薪資水平而不是一般大家想像的那樣"},{"start":12344.56,"end":12360.056,"text":"主旨高齡者壯世代再就業的不只是薪水政策更是工作環境的氛圍所以我們反過來再來看一下中高齡及高齡者的就業促進政策中對於工作的環境氛圍有很努力要改善的空間"},{"start":12361.637,"end":12379.463,"text":"對 他們的這個禁止年齡歧視的篇章前者收益人數比例偏低補助類型也只在硬體的設備改善後者也沒有辦法真正讓職場來歡迎高齡工作者其實我們想像多數公司的人資部門在看到"},{"start":12380.043,"end":12380.743,"text":"所以綜上所述"},{"start":12405.157,"end":12418.682,"text":"在獎勵補助、禁止招募條件、限制這些行為都沒有用的時候我也希望大家可以一起思考要怎麼樣扭轉這些對壯世代就業的職場迷思有一部很有名的電影叫高年級實習生"},{"start":12424.505,"end":12442.035,"text":"創世代會帶著20年前的大公事包只有帶一支筆跟一個筆記本就上班可是其實現在科技非常的進步普及創世代能夠使用電腦AI等等工具讓他們老化的速度延緩也讓他們有很好的職場的表現"},{"start":12444.097,"end":12457.609,"text":"應對超高齡社會的來臨,職場氛圍只是大眾對年齡歧視的縮影,如何透過整體政策促進大眾與職場對壯世代的接受程度,才能促進壯世代的就業?"},{"start":12465.792,"end":12477.843,"text":"好 寫者專家及委員都已經花言完畢那我們請行政機關做整體回應我請兩個人回應一個是勞動部次長 一個是衛福部次長那我們先請勞動部次長"},{"start":12490.404,"end":12506.652,"text":"好謝謝主席非常感謝今天各位委員跟各位學者專家在這個公聽會給我們勞動部很多的這個指教那我在這裡呢就幾點部分來跟我們各位貴賓做一個報告跟各位委員那第一個呢"},{"start":12507.452,"end":12525.665,"text":"有關於這個很多委員指向說對於這個高齡者就業他在這個成效上面可能目前還沒有很好或者是說在這個職場環境部分我們在加強他的這個剛剛陳委員特別提到工作環境的氛圍、氣氛然後還有這個未來的他這個"},{"start":12529.728,"end":12552.735,"text":"給他們更多的肯定那這個部分綜合而言我想這個是鼓勵跟這個讓中高齡能夠繼續留在職場或者是他已經退休了再能夠回到職場一個很重要的一個設計這部分我們勞動部門會跟其他的這個行政院相關部門我們一起來研究把這個目前的這個中高齡就業專法再做精進"},{"start":12553.755,"end":12578.254,"text":"那這部分我們在勞動部這邊我們有設定幾個工作目標在未來推動這個中高齡就業部分我們希望每年能夠協助12萬名以上的中高齡跟高齡的就業這是我們自己部裡面設定的目標那希望說在117年 距離現在還有4年這樣子的一個期限我們能夠鼓勵"},{"start":12580.175,"end":12597.68,"text":"政府和民間各行各業推動中高齡就業的參與率提高到70%這是第二個部分第三個部分我們希望從114年到117年明年到117年四年的期間我們希望能夠"},{"start":12599.458,"end":12626.378,"text":"協助12萬名以上的高齡者特別是高齡者65歲以上的高齡者就業因為這樣我們在就業協助辦法裡面我們也會做適度的修正目前企業僱用一名65歲以上的高齡者我們是每個月也補助15000塊持續可以一年這部分我們可以再來做一些研議如果這個金額或是期限"},{"start":12627.339,"end":12627.659,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12648.84,"end":12648.9,"text":"主席"},{"start":12678.639,"end":12683.302,"text":"主席以及在座各位委員大家午安大家好非常感謝各位委員今天對於我們整個這一個壯世代政策及產業發展所表示的意見那衛福部在這邊非常感非常感佩但是呢也在這邊提出四個重點"},{"start":12706.136,"end":12731.025,"text":"我們基本上還是持保留態度那有四個理由第一個是內容實質面第二個是有關於現有的施政作為第三是有關於法制面第四最後是組織面第一個就整個內容實質面而言呢壯世代這個名詞呢基本上有一個事實上是不明確的法律概念有三個不明確第一個法律概念上不明確第二個學術定律不明確第三個政策事情上的不明確"},{"start":12732.185,"end":12750.974,"text":"第1個就整個國際勞工組織45歲這是ILO的定義中高齡就65歲以上UN這是聯合國的定義65歲這是退休55歲的那個定義剛剛我想新明隆老師剛剛有提到就是說這基本上只是用目前勞保的一個定義事實上可能甚待商榷"},{"start":12752.415,"end":12770.296,"text":"不符合《世代正義》第一個,剛剛吳漢委員有提到李瑞行委員有提到現在目前的中高齡戰後的嬰兒草基本上都是全世界經濟強勢的一個generation那這裡面甚至還有20跟80的一個區分高齡者事實上自己本身也非常非常多元化"},{"start":12773.659,"end":12789.438,"text":"政府職能應該優先照顧比較弱勢目前比較明確的數據應該是1977年到1988年林宗鴻教授他已經有一個研究今年世代所以這個可能要世代正義的問題必須要嚴肅考慮"},{"start":12791.56,"end":12816.641,"text":"這一個整個現在目前剛剛我想勞動部這邊也提到我們現在目前所推動的基本上是以就業為優先那麼鼓勵中高齡跟女性就業同時呢本部也會積極的推動參與志工那我想兩個數字第一個剛剛我想那個勞動部許次長也提到就是說我們現在目前的經發會已經有提到我們現在目前有一個設定目標我們在中高齡的部分會提高到70%高齡者會勞動參與率會提高到10%"},{"start":12819.824,"end":12848.055,"text":"那麼還有另外我們的志工臺灣裡面我們現在目前全臺灣有志工呢總共有110萬那麼在這裡面65歲以上我們有36萬50到64歲是26.5我們這邊也會提出志工臺灣的方案來回應好 第二個是有關於整個現在目前的這一個施政作為現在現有已經有一個機制就是我們現在目前由政委所推動的各部會通力合作超高齡社會對策方案"},{"start":12848.735,"end":12877.186,"text":"我們預計在這一個112到115會投入1206億那麼結合15個部還有推動345個方案剛剛林博文校長有提到就是說有關University based retired community各位我跟各位報告教育部這裡面事實上就已經在這裡面還有我們的整個我們的這一個社區照顧關懷據點其實這裡面事實上都是推動整個所謂的活力老化的一個相關的方案所以這裡面"},{"start":12878.046,"end":12878.907,"text":"中高齡及高齡者就業促進"},{"start":12908.626,"end":12908.826,"text":"感謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":12936.311,"end":12945.14,"text":"謝謝理事長因為我們葉元之委員也非常關心最後跑來了給你五分鐘最後的話言"},{"start":12950.258,"end":12977.278,"text":"謝謝主席在場所有各位先進今天特別來支持我們吳春辰委員一直在推動這個壯世代因為我之前在新北市議會的時候我也是非常重視關心長輩的各項議題我覺得就是說為什麼要特別有這樣一個基本法最主要就是過去其實大家比如說以地方政府來講對於長輩的業務就是分在兩個局處一個局處就是社會局為什麼要在社會局給他一點福利"},{"start":12979.8,"end":12996.938,"text":"衛生局希望他能夠健康希望你能夠一直健康不要去拖垮我們的財政社會局就是說我們就多給你個福利當然我覺得福利也是非常重要如果有資源的話多給長輩福利我是絕對支持的那當然健康也是非常重要"},{"start":12997.498,"end":13011.125,"text":"但是我覺得我今天要提出來一個概念就是我們不應該把長輩當作是好像都是比較負面的感覺應該是把他們當作資產就是他成為我們整個社會一個不可或缺的一個非常寶貴的資產"},{"start":13012.746,"end":13013.986,"text":"從尊重長輩的角度推廣長輩的業務"},{"start":13032.552,"end":13051.79,"text":"像其實有非常多的研究高齡者的一些理論其實都有提出來像我們有一個概念是第三人生其實很多長輩在第三人生的時候他們在追尋追尋自我的一種人生的實現就是說他要去就是說要去成就他這個人生"},{"start":13052.771,"end":13076.067,"text":"我跟很多長輩聊天過有些長輩說他年輕的時候因為都在帶弟妹家庭經濟比較困難所以都在陪弟妹那好不容易辛苦了一輩子退休了他希望能夠補足他年輕的時候那個缺憾所以對他來講他在完整他這人生的人格我們應該要從這樣的角度去出發"},{"start":13077.108,"end":13092.97,"text":"那當然這個部分的話在在以各個高齡教育就非常重要就是高齡教育實施的目的有沒有站在這樣的角度就是幫助他能夠讓他覺得在他的第三人生是真正可以讓他人格可以完整那從"},{"start":13094.296,"end":13109.38,"text":"我們把長輩從這個把它變成目的之後我覺得我們整個思維都會很不一樣所以因此我覺得吳春城委員提這個壯世代的概念其實我覺得他就是要喚醒大家這樣的一個對長輩的一個思維的轉換"},{"start":13112.361,"end":13139.349,"text":"那基本法的定定也就是要告訴大家長輩是我們這個社會非常重視的資產當然他可以在任何不同的方面去實現這個就是大家可以針對不同的項目去討論可是大方向是一致的嘛那再來就是我覺得推動世代共榮也是非常重要那這個部分也是要落實在教育裡面以前學校都有在推一個東西叫服務學習服務學習有些學生他就是去一些長輩的機構去跟長輩互動那"},{"start":13142.37,"end":13155.163,"text":"他們在服務前跟服務後發現他對長輩的概念完全不一樣有些人有刻板印象覺得長輩就容易生氣啊覺得長輩就是比較兇啊可是當他們跟他們互動之後發現沒有啊其實長輩非常可愛而且長輩很會鼓舞人啊"},{"start":13156.045,"end":13179.373,"text":"讓這些學生在服務的過程當中成長很多不僅是世代共榮同時之間也讓那些學生學習到跟不同年齡的人的溝通然後會反饋到他的家庭裡面他回到家面對他的長輩他覺得我在外面對其他長輩都可以這樣子相處這麼好為什麼回到家裡對我的長輩都總是要生氣呢"},{"start":13180.453,"end":13199.057,"text":"所以推動世代共榮我覺得這也是雖然不是壯世代主題但是相關應該也是我們要發展的一個重點所以以上特別來這邊來支持一下我覺得這樣的概念當然是非常的好那至於說台灣的細節我相信透過大家的討論一定可以更精進的謝謝"},{"start":13204.451,"end":13221.269,"text":"那大家都歡迎王秉豪說以下結論依據立法院職權行使法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院前提委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考"},{"start":13222.332,"end":13242.399,"text":"我們會把各位的寶貴意見及書面資料編輯、陳冊、分送給本院的全體委員以及與會的政務機關代表、學者專家參與今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見本次的公聽會到此結束上位"},{"start":13249.018,"end":13250.419,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":13273.976,"end":13275.337,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"156563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7ddf3626b1be49429fd100730129a277b2d7ca9a8076fb05ad11952e407ee502b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:07:06 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謝謝召委排這個議程也感謝許多學者專家的出席還有官員們的出席我是陳菁徽醫師所以在我的病人族群裡面其實他們有三分之一要面臨壯世代的這個重返職場尤其是婦女會有這樣子的問題常常會跟我討論"},{"start":27.743,"end":45.131,"text":"很高興今天我有機會來參加壯世代政策與產業發展的公聽會在高齡化的社會成為常態的今天針對55歲以上我們國民的想像也應該隨著人均餘命的延長而改變那我剛有提到因為我是做婦產科的所以"},{"start":45.911,"end":46.071,"text":"公聽委員：陳菁徽"},{"start":66.721,"end":87.798,"text":"都希望藉由這個機會來重新思考才能面對超高齡社會的來臨首先我個人很有興趣是想聊一下壯世代的就業國發會的人口推估報告明年就會步入超高齡的社會也就是說老年人人口的比例將佔全台灣的五分之一"},{"start":88.499,"end":115.419,"text":"中研院有發表一個臺灣勞工記刊的研究就指出現在國民也花更多時間就學所以就業的時間更晚50歲以上國民的勞動參與率急速的下降中我們更應該思考要如何促進壯世代的就業尤其我們面對AI互聯網科技勞動環境受到數位科技的改變下高齡者就業的想像又更加的不同了"},{"start":115.979,"end":135.654,"text":"先前雖然行政院有推動中高齡者及高齡者就業促進專法以及活力老化的政策可是中高齡高齡者的勞參率改善的效果有限所以面對壯世代的就業我認為政府還應該要做的更多而且更多的調整"},{"start":136.935,"end":150.895,"text":"104人力銀行發布過中高齡就業的趨勢報告該報告指出企業多數擔心中高齡勞工薪水要求過高所以不敢徵才但其中也談到壯世代續留職場的因素"},{"start":151.516,"end":172.469,"text":"除了經濟需求之外其實大多數考慮的是希望繼續與社會產生連結那維持他的身心健康還有貢獻社會等等事實上他重視的優先是工作地點內容還有工作的氛圍友善再來才是薪資水平而不是一般大家想像的那樣"},{"start":173.65,"end":176.954,"text":"中高齡及高齡者的就業促進政策中對於工作的環境氛圍有很努力要改善的空間"},{"start":190.51,"end":208.342,"text":"對 他們的這個禁止年齡歧視的篇章前者收益人數比例偏低補助類型也只在硬體的設備改善後者也沒有辦法真正讓職場來歡迎高齡工作者其實我們想像多數公司的人資部門在看到"},{"start":208.882,"end":209.622,"text":"所以綜上所述"},{"start":234.034,"end":247.664,"text":"在獎勵補助、禁止招募條件、限制這些行為都沒有用的時候我也希望大家可以一起思考要怎麼樣扭轉這些對壯世代就業的職場迷思有一部很有名的電影叫《高年級實習生》"},{"start":249.005,"end":270.926,"text":"他裡面就會對高齡者就業有偏見想像這個壯世代就業會帶著20年前的大公事包只有帶一支筆跟一個筆記本就上班可是其實現在科技非常的進步普及壯世代能夠使用電腦AI等等工具讓他們老化的速度延緩也讓他們有很好的職場的表現"},{"start":272.968,"end":286.488,"text":"應對超高齡社會的來臨,職場氛圍只是大眾對年齡歧視的縮影,如何透過整體政策促進大眾與職場對壯世代的接受程度,才能促進壯世代的就業?"}]}},{"id":"156557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d3112a551bba3eee0d100730129a277b22e72fbbb48a4d1ee3c75c7788f2af55f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:49:59 - 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這個數字讓我們看到我們的人口紅利 我們的人口紅利的這個時間已經要結束了因為我們史上會衝破三分之二 那我們社會會沒有充沛的這個青壯勞力 那人力的資源會面臨的整個一個重整"},{"start":120.891,"end":142.965,"text":"所以因此我再次強調因為少子化跟因為缺工的問題中高年齡者未來會成為工作職場很重要的主力那壯世代會成為職場上熱門的熱搜關鍵制因此政府你要怎麼樣去協助這些壯世代可以提升我們的勞動參與跟維持產業的一個競爭力這是非常重要的一個關鍵時刻"},{"start":148.769,"end":169.962,"text":"那麼是不是可以讓年長的員工慢慢的降低工時這樣子可以讓他們在正式退休之前他可以將他的寶貴的經驗以及身心的準備也可以讓我們職場中年輕人有更多的機會有更多的機會來接手這些工作這個都是要提供給我們政府的思考"},{"start":170.502,"end":197.554,"text":"當然政府針對於中高年齡層超高年齡層有所作為但是實際上的數字告訴我們就是剛剛本席所說明的這個數字我們似乎還有很大的一個討論空間跟執行空間所以我要跟著說跟著全球的這個高齡化日益的加劇的時候我們我國我們的高齡化這個速度呢已經是"},{"start":198.775,"end":214.821,"text":"全球第三塊我們已經是全球第三塊在這樣的情況之下隨著我們的醫療的發達國人平均餘命越來越長所以我給大家一個數字報告從2023年我們看到國人的平均壽命較前年增加0.39歲"},{"start":216.522,"end":240.002,"text":"那麼達到平均男女軍訓的是多少呢?80.23其中男性76.94女生女性83.74所以我請男性要加油但是呢國內平均愚民有一個重點不健康的不健康的愚民也逐漸在升高那麼顯示我們目前的統計不健康的愚民是多少?8.5年"},{"start":241.863,"end":256.079,"text":"那顯示活的老但是不見得他是生活的好所以如果壯世代的國民沒有辦法有好的健康狀態那就會成為醫療社會以及社福以及家庭"},{"start":256.92,"end":279.959,"text":"重大的負擔因此我認為政府有必要積極的來作為有所作為讓壯世代的人可以活得健康讓社福負擔可以減少所以因此我們看到壯世代我們依照人口的統計跟社會面向壯世代佔台灣的三分之一人口但是他掌控了他握有了三分之二的財富"},{"start":280.78,"end":302.988,"text":"他為了三分之二財富那麼所以高齡化帶來危機同時也帶來新的一個轉機我們除了要長壽之外我們要維持健康所以因此我們希望政府看到所有的社會面向也就是你必須要善用科技發展飲食的管理運動等產業也就是所謂的現在國際間努力在推動的長壽新經濟是未來政府必須要持續的"},{"start":310.23,"end":310.29,"text":"主席"},{"start":326.215,"end":326.255,"text":"主席"},{"start":342.552,"end":342.572,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":372.78,"end":373.044,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"156541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d237640eaf2100d8bd100730129a277b2a2450328f9194eb4af890c8298699f945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:51:09 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集團騙的是退休金的話加重處分"},{"start":390.267,"end":403.619,"text":"因為他是一個完全不可逆的狀況而且是對於這個壯世代來講他的最後一筆人生的一個這個不管是保本金也好不管是他的生活必須也好"},{"start":404.71,"end":431.153,"text":"所以我今天提出來這幾個部分我想當然很多各界先進的一個意見等一下我也會剛剛在現場以及我也會在辦公室持續的透過直播跟大家繼續的來了解但我更需要的是政府部門一定要正式講的一個問題這不是只是單一部會雖然我們今天在衛環委員會但這絕對不是只是衛福部絕對不是勞動部絕對不是只是單一部會的問題"},{"start":432.634,"end":439.99,"text":"而是希望是能夠政府一個更宏觀的態度去看我們現在面臨到台灣的人口結構以及我們面臨到怎麼樣能夠讓產業發展"},{"start":442.076,"end":442.556,"text":"再次感謝大家 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仁愛之家的長輩他們是病死還是悶死"},{"start":297.802,"end":319.438,"text":"大部分都是因為悶死 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大家都是已經被汙名化的 沒有人願意承認這些事情以至於他成為一個沒有身份的人 變成一個欠缺方向的時代壯世代就是賦予他的新身份為什麼要改名 都講說有需要什麼名稱的名稱嗎 那為什麼以前三胞要改名叫原住民殘障為什麼要改名叫身障"},{"start":266.622,"end":280.878,"text":"一個名詞就代表了一種身份就是一種汙名化那現在高齡者我們給他一個他很喜歡的名詞我已經在民間傳佈了像福音傳福音一樣四年了每一個聽到以後整個的精神都很旺起來"},{"start":281.559,"end":285.545,"text":"民間培訓了一千位壯世代的speaker 到處在宣講所以這是一個社會運動 這不是我們今天關在那個房間裡面閉門造句的東西"},{"start":301.078,"end":321.294,"text":"所有的媒體你現在看,上週去年用二十幾頁封面故事談壯世代今年十月份用三十幾頁封面故事談壯世代的百強企業所有的企業都在使用,不是一個新名詞下個月要辦的資訊業也創了壯世代董資樂園,董資訊的樂園"},{"start":327.54,"end":347.939,"text":"如果你用那個大數據雲圖你輸入銀髮高齡老人產生的這個雲圖大概就是老化退化銀髮族失能俱樂部大概都在然後樂火獨居長照大概在討論這議題如果你輸入的是壯世代他就是時尚質感文化參與活動分享你要哪一個"},{"start":350.206,"end":372.538,"text":"這就是我們政府行政院去年所提出的超高齡社會對策白皮書的目錄我拿這個目錄問陳建仁院長他72歲我問他說院長這個沒有利用的喔你看他拿幾樣會讓你動心他看一下以後說我都不需要請問誰需要這就是我們政府對高齡社會的想像"},{"start":374.673,"end":403.111,"text":"在這個翻轉叫做因法族思維翻轉成為壯世代的思維這改變的是何等的多大我們現在是停留在因法族如果你設定的是因法族你所想像的他就是什麼不是要去醫院就是在醫院的路上他的人生只要求平安他是年輕人的負擔他就是養生養平安如果你是壯世代他有30年的健康餘命他渴望自我貢獻促進世代的循環精彩的第三人生完全不一樣的政策完全不同的產業"},{"start":406.621,"end":432.923,"text":"其實這件事情不是突然冒出來其實上一次辦的公聽會有8個部會的部長全程參與了4個小時的公聽會大家有高度的共識包括這一次13個部會所提出來的報告都有所以大家都已經進行半年的不是大家還搞不清楚的問題已經各個部會13個部會已經跟我合作了將近半年了"},{"start":434.226,"end":449.48,"text":"但是這個半年當中我們不滿意為什麼大家所提出的64項計畫就像你剛才都是都是熱領活動沒有前瞻性沒有策略性都只是現有政策的會編這就是為什麼要立法的原因"},{"start":451.812,"end":451.972,"text":"主席"},{"start":467.503,"end":481.624,"text":"我們透過了整個立法院 成立了各個的系統 這裡是上次都有支撐的來建立這樣子 所以有龐大的專家學者共同在運作 不是我一個人在做的事情"},{"start":482.925,"end":509.204,"text":"這是一步促進世代循環 剛才也提這堂的一個權益跟照顧 這個是唯一現在 我們現在說的 大家都是這個國家 那個國家國家沒有辦法養這個一半的人啦 現在壯世代掌握三分之的財富他要創造的這個產業 透露對年輕人最來最大的希望 獲得新創跟長壽機會各個部位所扮演角色 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白潔榮政戰作戰局局長 陳玉玲軍備局局長 林文祥主計局局長 謝祺賢戰略規劃司司長 黃文啟"},{"start":2059.42,"end":2081.507,"text":"支援規劃師師長鄧克雄法律事務師師長沈世偉整合評估師副師長趙建國政務辦公室副主任南靜亭"},{"start":2086.072,"end":2104.147,"text":"人事參謀次長是次長劉佩智情報參謀次長是次長謝日生作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文興後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔"},{"start":2115.319,"end":2131.543,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩年訓練參謀次長是次長張俊志陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長王德陽"},{"start":2149.724,"end":2152.186,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長劉勛興支通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良軍事情報局執行長鄧敦仁電訊發展市執行長許益興"},{"start":2179.591,"end":2203.319,"text":"國家中山科學研究院院長李士強本日會議邀請國安局及國防部報告．北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改選．對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響．並備質詢。．"},{"start":2205.956,"end":2209.398,"text":"首先先請國安局蔡局長上台報告"},{"start":2222.128,"end":2240.462,"text":"好,謝謝主席。主席、各位委員先進、各位女士先生,大家好。那非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行專題報告。那緊就北韓援兵、俄羅斯兩韓身高對立以及日本眾議院改選等等的情勢,向各位委員先進報告如此。第一大部分是有關於情勢分析。"},{"start":2241.868,"end":2262.541,"text":"①北韓兵援俄國牽動歐亞安全的聯動性②北韓的行動引發了國際的譴責。從今年10月開始,俄國開始運送大約有1萬名的北韓士兵到俄國的遠東地區來接受適應的訓練。目前已經有8000名的北韓士兵抵達俄國的庫斯克州。美國跟南韓的"},{"start":2263.041,"end":2281.969,"text":"2加2會議已經強烈的對於北韓的行為展開譴責那另外在北約、歐盟、烏克蘭也提出嚴重的警告認為北韓的參戰會導致俄烏戰爭的升級歐亞安全密不可分二、俄國跟北韓深化戰略同盟的合作關係北韓軍援跟兵援俄國"},{"start":2282.809,"end":2304.005,"text":"換取俄國來提供晶圓還有火箭的技術．那雙方也在今年的6月簽署了全面戰略夥伴關係的條約那北韓的外長更公開的宣誓將會持續的來支持俄國直到戰爭勝利為止並且明確的把俄國放在北韓對外關係的最重要位置顯示北韓有意來降低對於中共的一個依賴"},{"start":2305.356,"end":2329.698,"text":"第二,兩韓升高對立,增添朝鮮半島的變數。括弧一,北韓加大對外的敵對的作為。北韓在上個月進行修憲,把南韓列為是北韓的敵對國家,同時也炸毀了連接兩韓的鐵公路的系統。另外,北韓在10月31日再度的試射洲際彈道飛彈,刻意地在美國大選之前展現北韓的核導國家地位。"},{"start":2331.819,"end":2349.627,"text":"南韓跟美日歐合作應處北韓的挑戰美國、南韓跟日本已經召開三方國安跟外交首長的會議在會議當中三方共同來譴責北韓的挑釁美國重申對於日本還有南韓的延伸性嚇阻的安全承諾同時美日韓也跟法國、英國"},{"start":2350.427,"end":2359.115,"text":"德國、意大利、荷蘭、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭等等11個國家成立了多國監測小組,持續地來監督各國是不是有確實地來執行對於北韓的各項經濟制裁。"},{"start":2362.341,"end":2388.224,"text":"三、日本眾議院改選衝擊日本政局的後續發展。關乎一、自共聯盟喪失了穩定執政的一個基礎。日本在10月27號舉行眾議院的改選,選出465席的眾議員。其中自民黨跟公民黨的執政聯盟各獲得了191席跟24席,總共有215個席次,但這215個席次並沒有過整個眾議院半數也就是233席。"},{"start":2389.665,"end":2399.604,"text":"另外最大戰略黨立憲民主黨獲得了148席日本衛星會獲得38席以及國民民主黨獲得了28席我們可以看到在選舉之後"},{"start":2401.434,"end":2419.75,"text":"日本的在野黨席次大幅增加,執政聯盟跟在野黨的實力差距也逐漸縮小。瓜胡二,抄野激烈的角力來爭取執政的機會,目前日本的政壇並沒有任何的單一政黨可以獲得到眾議院過半的席次,現任首相石破茂已經表示願意跟其他政黨展開合作。"},{"start":2421.351,"end":2450.101,"text":"最大在野黨立憲民主黨也希望能夠透過跟其他政黨的合作爭取支持來推動可能的政黨輪替那日本眾議院已經規劃在這個月的11號到14號來召開特別國會選出新的首相那在整個過程當中可以看到的是各個在野的小黨已經變成了志工執政聯盟以及最大的在野黨立憲民主黨希望來爭取合作對象那可見未來在日本的政局發展過程當中這些關鍵的小黨可以扮演非常重要的一個角色"},{"start":2451.201,"end":2473.982,"text":"第二大部分是有關於影響評估一、北韓所掀起的一個兩韓的一個對立那聯動到的有各個大國之間彼此的戰略角力那北韓積極地來提升跟俄國實質的安全合作關係並且加大跟南韓的對立、軍事挑釁他的目的除了要來凝聚北韓自己內部的向心力以外也希望能夠來累積跟美國的新政府"},{"start":2474.922,"end":2495.38,"text":"後續談判的籌碼：主要的目的也是希望能夠透過這些的接觸來促使美國解除對北韓的經濟制裁以及停止美韓的軍演同時來承認北韓擁有核武的一個地位那在過程當中我們可以看到美國、南韓也開始協同日本、澳洲跟其他的歐洲國家來加強推動援烏、抗俄"},{"start":2496.141,"end":2496.681,"text":"第2日本渴望維持友台路線"},{"start":2511.371,"end":2530.407,"text":"日本眾議院的選舉之後出現嘲笑野大的一個局面那未來不論是哪一個政黨來重組內閣為了爭取民眾的信任穩定執政的基礎應該會把重點聚焦在內政的事務整體的外交跟安保的政策可能會延續既有的基本的一個方針在對台政策的部分自民黨"},{"start":2531.007,"end":2560.209,"text":"立憲民主黨、日本維新會等等的政黨在選舉過程當中分別提出應該要來推進跟我國各個階層領域的實務的合作那同時也去強調台海核穩跟日本關係具有高度的關聯性那也不容許中共來試圖用武力片面改變台海的現狀所以從剛剛所提到日本各個主要政黨對台政策立場我們可以看到日本未來應該還是會持續的關注台海的情勢推動台日之間雙方的交流"},{"start":2560.99,"end":2581.707,"text":"第三,台海的核穩對於印太安全越來越重要。北韓在涉入俄烏戰事以及朝鮮半島的對立聲傲之後,再加上中共擴張對其他國家海洋的威脅,都導致了我們的印太地區安全環境更形得嚴峻、更複雜。在過程當中,台海和平穩定越顯重要。"},{"start":2582.948,"end":2608.293,"text":"歐洲、加拿大以及日本、韓國、澳洲、紐西蘭等等的印太國家已經多次公開的表達對於維持台海和平穩定的一個重視那在今年以來已經有9個國家派遣他們的軍艦執行大約有15次通過台海的任務突顯出國際社會更加重視台海情勢的一個發展第三大部分結語朝鮮半島的情勢升溫跟亞歐安全的聯動已經增添了印太地區的不確定性"},{"start":2609.153,"end":2635.81,"text":"面對安全環境的快速變動本局會持續的來精進戰略預警情資的收研並且來強化跟國際友盟的對話以及情報交流以便來掌握最新的情勢發展即時來提供政府各單位作為決策參考以上報告進行大院各位委員為您指教謝謝大家那我們先確認議事錄我補充介紹一下林柱英委員"},{"start":2640.474,"end":2652.999,"text":"請問在場委員對上一次的會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處?那如果沒有的話我們就是議事錄確定接著我們請國防部博副部長進行報告"},{"start":2672.13,"end":2696.24,"text":"主席、各位委員先進。近期北韓派兵協助俄羅斯作戰、朝鮮半島緊張的關係與日本眾議院改選等重大事件廣受國際的矚目,亦牽動區域安全情勢的變化。此就大院指導完成嚴希如厚。第一,近期的重要事件的概述,北韓派兵加入"},{"start":2697.04,"end":2712.036,"text":"俄烏戰爭．北約秘書長呂特上週．證實朝鮮已派部隊赴俄國參戰．經路透社及南韓媒體報導．北韓士兵找俄羅斯的軍服參戰．"},{"start":2713.41,"end":2735.271,"text":"判北韓為履行俄朝新簽訂的全面戰略夥伴關係條約一國應入侵而進入戰爭狀態另一國應提供軍事援助之規定同時北韓亦可藉此獲得俄國提供的糧食、武器、科技資源與實戰經驗等的利益"},{"start":2736.132,"end":2762.815,"text":"第二,南北韓的衝突方面．北韓外交部指控南海派遣無人機前往檳榔．散發煽動性的謠言和垃圾內容的傳單．將此行為描述為可能導致武裝衝突．發生戰爭的挑釁行為．並炸毀兩韓合作計劃所建的金義縣與東海縣鐵路第三,日本眾議院改選的結果．"},{"start":2763.556,"end":2784.697,"text":"日本第50屆的眾議院選舉上週舉行了投開票自民黨與國民黨組成的執政聯盟未能取得過半席次國會形成嘲笑也大的局面然而日向石破茂仍可能藉由爭取眾議院其他在野黨的支持持續的執政"},{"start":2786.069,"end":2806.884,"text":"第二部分對區域安全的影響第一中共運用安全環境變化增加國際影響力北韓炸毀鐵路後中共及呼籲兩國停止挑釁的行動並避免評論北韓派兵至俄羅斯之舉顯示中共意圖以推動全球安全倡議之框架"},{"start":2807.705,"end":2831.874,"text":"形塑中國特色的國際安全架構運用當前全球衝突不斷的國際局勢塑造中共調停爭議的形象來增加國際的影響力第二美國維持印太戰略與穩定去情勢美國國防部針對北韓加入俄烏戰爭表示"},{"start":2832.779,"end":2860.149,"text":"不對烏克蘭運用美制的武器實施下以限制．為人未同意深入打擊俄國．顯示美國避免升高區域衝突．防止俄烏戰爭以哈衝突等情勢．分散美國處理印太安全議題的能力．美國在印太仍將持續維持有謀以及遏制中共的軍事擴張．"},{"start":2862.557,"end":2877.787,"text":"第3日本區域的政策走向將受國內的政局的掣肘日向石破茂原對外表達支持建立亞洲版的北約未來在外交與安保的政策的"},{"start":2877.947,"end":2881.788,"text":"第4南北韓避免升高緊張局勢並與美日歐合作應處．北韓近期對南韓挑釁的行為．意圖藉此增加與美談判的籌碼．南韓為強烈反應其能降低北韓"},{"start":2908.295,"end":2918.084,"text":"話語權,穩定區域安全形勢,令與11國成立多國監測的小組,持續監督與各國是否確實執行對北韓之各項的制裁。"},{"start":2919.096,"end":2937.685,"text":"就區域環境的變化對臺的影響方面,第一,臺灣的戰略地位不受影響。歐盟與北約在對應俄烏戰爭之際,北約自2022年起連續三年與峰會聲明,維持臺海和平與穩定,自為重要。"},{"start":2938.445,"end":2960.592,"text":"是國際社會安全與環隆不可缺少的要素。南韓與美國召開安全協商會議之聯合聲明,亦強調台海和平穩定的重要性,顯示國際社會不樂見中共成為區域的霸權,重視台灣抗衡中共的第一線戰略地位。"},{"start":2961.701,"end":2987.86,"text":"第二,臺日關係仍會穩定地成長。現任執政黨、自民黨的長期友臺、眾議院第二大黨黨魁也田家彥於今年8月來參加凱德格蘭大道的論壇中,再次地強調臺日共享民主價值在經濟上具有高度互補性。雖然執政聯盟未取得過半的席次,但兩國的"},{"start":2989.261,"end":3008.486,"text":"情誼、深厚、台日關係將持續穩定的友好。中共對我脅迫以認知作戰和灰色地帶的洗腦為主中共對台受到國內外因素的驅動內部包括政權的穩定、民族主義以及經濟發展壓力等促成中共採取"},{"start":3010.456,"end":3025.889,"text":"強硬的立場外交方面美中競爭加劇區域所有的地緣政治的變化亦為中共帶來新的挑戰現階段中共將持續採認知作戰及軍事施壓對台灰色地帶洗腦"},{"start":3027.652,"end":3049.177,"text":"為因應日益快速變動的戰略環境．本部將綿密掌握區域安全情勢的發展．同時強化自我防衛的能力．與勇盟加強合作共同對應．以確保國家安全．並為區域穩定盡一份心力以上報告 敬請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":3055.894,"end":3074.002,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員時駕2分鐘﹚非本會委員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答情形再進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":3085.113,"end":3091.472,"text":"蔡局長謝謝主席、各位委員長"},{"start":3093.312,"end":3093.332,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":3123.952,"end":3148.642,"text":"可是跟俄羅斯有簽署軍事互助協議的不單只有北韓,包含像白俄羅斯、伊朗跟中國都有簽訂在俄羅斯兵力嚴重短缺的狀況之下之前俄羅斯的媒體也曾經點名要求這幾個國家對俄羅斯提供更進一步的協助我想請教"},{"start":3149.943,"end":3149.963,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":3163.232,"end":3179.874,"text":"我想這次北韓參與俄烏戰場那主要原因有北韓的一些戰略的盤算希望透過這樣的一個參戰來得到俄國更多方面的一個支持包括經濟的援助以及火箭技術的提供那可以了解委的關切就是擔心在北韓參戰之後"},{"start":3181.095,"end":3197.605,"text":"那會不會有更多其他俄國的友盟來加入戰局那變成戰事會不斷的擴大變成一種區域的比較廣泛的一個戰事或是升溫的一個跡象那不過跟委員說明的是在現階段來講那因為在俄烏的戰場上那"},{"start":3200.106,"end":3218.875,"text":"吳克蘭跟俄國都開始進入一種所謂的戰時經濟的狀態希望能夠來盡量的來支撐戰局那也在評估是不是在美國大選之後會有一些新的國際運輸的變化來影響整個俄烏戰局的後續發展那現階段看起來還沒有看到有其他的"},{"start":3219.355,"end":3222.538,"text":"北韓是一個很特殊的案例因為他長期以來就遭受到西方國家的經濟制裁所以他在權衡得失之後才會在這個時間點來加入俄烏的戰局"},{"start":3239.696,"end":3267.064,"text":"所以我們國人所擔心的比如說我們也很擔心中國來參戰嘛因為這樣子的話其實可以取得一個實戰的這個經驗我想國人應該也是非常擔心當然我剛才看到國防部也好或者是在國安局也好有提到就其實中國對這個部分基本上他是不想要去做評論也希望能夠保持一個低調的態度那當然我也看過一些報導就說中國可能也希望在這一局裡面能夠扮演一個類似"},{"start":3268.224,"end":3283.44,"text":"合適牢的一個角色提升他在國際上的這個地位所以也就是說目前如果以局長您所看法就是說其實我們所擔心中國會不會參戰其實到目前為止是沒有看到任何的跡象對沒有這樣的跡象OK好了解"},{"start":3285.241,"end":3286.562,"text":"日本在前陣子的眾議院改選當中自民黨跟公民黨執政聯盟沒有辦法取得過半的席次"},{"start":3301.727,"end":3322.602,"text":"不管怎麼樣就算說11月11號舉辦這個國會舉辦這個首相這個選舉時破帽如果真的順利連任的話我想這個日本還是會出現一些不同的一些走向可能還是會出現新的一個證據所以我們比較擔心就是說當然我也看到就是說"},{"start":3323.882,"end":3345.667,"text":"國安局跟國防部的這個報告就是說日本友台的態度基本上是這基調是不變的可是問題是畢竟自民黨過去友台這個方向會不會因為這個潮小野大會面臨不同的局面雖然是友台可是台日之間的關係會不會有一些微妙的這個變化會不會有"},{"start":3349.057,"end":3371.893,"text":"對,就台日關係的發展來講,那剛剛委員也提到我們在口頭報告的時候已經有說明因為主要的政黨包括自民黨以及主要的在野黨包括立憲民主黨以及主要的另外一個重要的在野黨包括日本維新會他們在選舉過程當中對於台日關係都有一些討論跟論述那基本的主軸都還是在於台日安全有緊密的聯動性"},{"start":3372.814,"end":3390.543,"text":"那在這樣的一個基調之下那也許日本的政局因為政黨聯合內閣的組合會有一些不同的新的政黨加入這個團隊但是你去仔細的檢視各個政黨基本的立場還有基調大概對於維持跟台灣的關係都有一個非常長期的一個相關的一個主張"},{"start":3391.443,"end":3419.434,"text":"因為之前像這個他們的這個國家安保戰略裡面有第一次就來定義台日這個關係就是說台灣是日本極重要的友人那對於中國他的定義是日本前所未有之最大戰略挑戰挑戰是一個比較客氣的一個說法那當然像這個這個他這個定義是前陣子才做這個定義會不會因為我們也想說這個因為新政局的這個"},{"start":3420.855,"end":3448.891,"text":"這個產生這個前面所謂的台日之間的關係會不會有所改變那當然我想的改變並不是說他有台這個態度改變而是說會不會說有些合作啊步調會放緩像過去的話我們會覺得說我們之間的關係是非常的close像這會不會因為有些在野黨擔心中國的態度跟台灣之間的關係是有稍微疏離本席想要提的是這個部分"},{"start":3450.711,"end":3478.358,"text":"對基本上去檢視日本政壇的各個政黨的基本立場剛有提到了在對台政策的部分是希望加強跟台灣在各個領域的合作能夠進一步的來深化那也去重視到台海安全可能對於日本自身安全產生的一個影響所以對於台海問題非常的關注這是為什麼日本在很多包括雙邊或多邊的這種安全或高層會談當中都持續的去表述對於台海核穩的重視那這大概是第一部分跟委員說明"},{"start":3479.218,"end":3493.334,"text":"那對於這些日本政黨對於中國的關係會不會影響台日的關係目前看起來倒不至於因為在對中國的關係來看日本是希望能夠穩定穩定跟中國的關係而不是說去加強所謂的"},{"start":3494.535,"end":3515.438,"text":"戰略面或其他領域更深入的合作他們是在做一種戰略的管理所以我們可以預期也許在10天之後的APEC峰會會有中日元首的一個互動那我們所理解到的是討論的議題大概都還是聚焦在他們自己雙邊的議題包括日本的公民在中國大陸的人身安全的問題以及日本的相關的水產進口的問題"},{"start":3516.559,"end":3531.004,"text":"所以我們看到的這種中日議題主要都還是在這種比較技術面或經貿面的一個討論沒有涉及到他們更深入在安保或戰略面的一個合作那假如有那種情形當然會影響到台日關係但目前來看並沒有"},{"start":3534.326,"end":3548.015,"text":"石破茂一直有提到一個構想就是亞洲版北約那亞洲版北約說實在我們所看到就是說美國也好印度也好基本上他們是不支持的美國甚至還說為時過早印太還沒有準備"},{"start":3548.675,"end":3570.031,"text":"甚至我們看到日本的官員態度也是非常的保守他說還需要中長期的規劃應該來先強化美日同盟當然時迫茂他會提亞洲版北約就是因為他認為說近日烏克蘭就是明日東亞他會有這個想法就希望說我們亞洲也必須要有一個軍事防衛的一個聯盟可是看起來這個是"},{"start":3571.432,"end":3593.788,"text":"不可行,我們是覺得種種的客觀的因素,比如說不管是在亞洲地方有主權的爭議或地緣條件等等,好像這個亞洲版北約,我在想要推行真的不太容易,可是基於這個,我們畢竟還是需要,基本上我們以台灣來講的話,我們還是需要有一個類似亞洲的軍事防衛的聯盟,"},{"start":3596.77,"end":3626.117,"text":"局長你怎麼看如果說我們要怎麼來運用這防衛合作的這個架構目前現有的對那就石破首相他確實有提出亞洲版北約的一個構想那也正如委員所提到的因為這個構想還沒有一些細部的規劃所以自民黨內部也成立一個專責的小組希望針對日本對外的安保政策能夠再有一個比較深入跟全面的一個討論那就亞洲版北約後續的發展可能主要的重點還是在於日本怎麼樣來加強跟美國在這一方面強化合作的磋商"},{"start":3626.357,"end":3649.079,"text":"讓美日同盟加N,讓美日同盟可以變成一個加N的機制,有更多的國家來加入相關的安保或相關議題的一個合作那除了美日同盟加N以外,現有的Quad,還有現有的AUKUS,也都是多邊合作的機制那怎麼樣把這些小多邊的合作機制,能夠串成一個區域在安保議題合作的網絡"},{"start":3649.959,"end":3656.624,"text":"臺灣會成為其中的Plus嗎?我們會成為其中的Plus嗎?像Core的話我們一直都很低調有在參與嘛,像是AUKUS之類的,我們有辦法變成他們的另外一個"},{"start":3666.391,"end":3680.924,"text":"也許台灣並不是直接加入這些每日主導的小多邊的機制,不是直接參加,但是還是可以透過各種的管道來針對這些機制所關切的安全議題,海洋安全議題或是相關產業鏈安全的議題來交換意見。"},{"start":3682.839,"end":3701.739,"text":"所以在目前為止,亞洲還是沒有辦法像北約這樣子嗎?就是有一個真正的一個軍事聯盟,因為我們可能也沒有辦法組成一個部隊啊,什麼之類的。對,因為北約它還是有它的歷史背景,在冷戰的對抗氣氛之下,有一個非常緊密的軍事,它是一個軍事同盟的合作。"},{"start":3702.259,"end":3719.635,"text":"再加上文化還有價值理念的一個共同性以及彼此之間沒有那麼多的領土爭議所以讓北約可以幾十年來有一個穩定的防衛機制來應應各種威脅挑戰那亞洲部分目前的條件可能還有一些需要在透過各國來討論來建構合作條件的一個過程"},{"start":3723.141,"end":3733.113,"text":"局長,我剛剛忘了問了一個問題,就是澤倫斯基有提到說北韓的參戰呢,他是世界大戰的第一步的開始,你覺得會有這個趨勢嗎?與你來看。"},{"start":3735.686,"end":3763.347,"text":"我想目前北韓投入的兵力還規模還是在初步的階段這是第一個那第二個他在戰場上的角色也必須要再進一步來討論因為我們所知道的是北韓這次投入的部隊是他的風暴軍團那年紀都比較輕二十幾歲那這個風暴軍團主要都是步兵的士兵那可能從事的是城鎮作戰跟敵後滲透的一個相關的一個活動那所以他們的戰場上的角色大概是處於這個部分"},{"start":3763.767,"end":3766.528,"text":"所以南韓他所擔心的可能會擴大到東亞,可能目前還看不到是什麼?"},{"start":3790.773,"end":3808.541,"text":"對,這個部分確實有這樣的關切,它的關切角度是,假如北韓跟俄國有這樣的一個同盟軍事合作的話,萬一未來北韓要在朝鮮半島新興的話,俄國會不會來支持北韓?那這是大概南韓的國安部門跟情報部門目前關注的主要的重點。"},{"start":3810.882,"end":3830.914,"text":"當然這都是,所以現在世界上非常的動亂,全球都非常的動亂,那台灣處在一個地緣政治上這麼重要的一個位置,所以我們還是要特別的注意,我們比較擔心的是聯動性,這聯動性像剛才我有提到的,像南韓很擔心就是說會擴及到"},{"start":3831.554,"end":3831.914,"text":"謝謝羅美琳委員 局長請回"},{"start":3856.55,"end":3866.32,"text":"接下來陳永康陳永康陳永康委員不在接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":3885.865,"end":3907.365,"text":"好 謝謝主席 林委員早局長早安現在美選美國選舉正在開票當中但是我沒有要問你美選的結果我其實比較關注的就是說2024年即將接近尾聲那麼我們知道其實全球好幾個我們主要的民主夥伴國家正在進行他們權力的改選或者是"},{"start":3907.825,"end":3908.025,"text":"全力結構"},{"start":3928.559,"end":3952.199,"text":"俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結。不知道這樣的訊息,國安局有沒有相關的研擬?那麼對於這篇報導,國安局的看法又是如何?是不是對全球來說,現在所面臨的變成是自由民主的陣營"},{"start":3953.18,"end":3966.715,"text":"跟相對極權而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是兩元的更為極端,局長怎麼看?針對委員所引述的報導先說明一下不是國安局在對外提供的一個觀點"},{"start":3968.137,"end":3992.552,"text":"但是對於各種媒體上的討論我們都非常的注意有在列入我們的參考跟評估那特別要注意到的是在接下來的一個地緣政治的發展那到底有沒有哪些的發展趨勢我們必須要掌握那個脈動那確實正如委員所提到的事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後那國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的這種對立的一個局勢確實慢慢的在開展當中"},{"start":3993.272,"end":4011.405,"text":"那在隨著整個俄烏戰事的戰事長期化那這樣的趨勢越來越明顯那這種趨勢不只是美國有盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的一個支持也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組所以你用這個角度來看的話可以發現到"},{"start":4012.205,"end":4017.267,"text":"如果是這樣的話,我們在安全的部分,不論是跟相關的國防部又或者是情報相關的單位當中,是不是都有做好相關的準備?"},{"start":4038.956,"end":4057.538,"text":"因為在面對比較變動的區域的安全環境那怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資確實非常的重要那就本局來講我們在過去這一年多裡面大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明第二部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位不同的部門那我們會做相關的情資的一個整合"},{"start":4058.338,"end":4073.253,"text":"讓不管是人員情報或科技情報進來之後我們可以有比較完整全面的分析以便能夠掌握情報的即時性跟正確性那第二部分是我們也跟國際有盟不斷的來加強相關的一個情報交流跟合作以便來掌握相關發展的趨勢"},{"start":4074.554,"end":4097.625,"text":"好那麼講到這個情報交流當然還是要回到現在其實大家都在關注的美選可是在美選真的投票出來之前其實很多見縫插針對於台灣的一些不利的消息到底是中國這邊放消息還是在地協力者放消息這個我不確定但是就看到報上開始說了"},{"start":4099.406,"end":4113.316,"text":"對於台灣面對沒選的結果有所謂壓錯寶的壓寶說啊有認為說台灣這個不了解狀況又或者說台灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的這個說法存在那對於這種已經開始"},{"start":4116.82,"end":4123.943,"text":"有因為就爭議訊息的散播來講國安局這邊有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡的查找那委員所提到的是散布的一個網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的他背後有一個很大的一個產業鏈還有工作鏈"},{"start":4144.71,"end":4163.559,"text":"那由中共方面來提供相關的情訊那再透過協力者來進行轉發各位做一個數字上的說明在聯合立見2024A的演習過程當中相關的正義訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化那在2024A我們看到Ttalk的異常帳號才150幾個可是到了2024BTtalk的異常帳號已經到了1800多個"},{"start":4171.863,"end":4199.06,"text":"所以短短只有幾個月對 不斷地在擴散那這是大概第一個趨勢跟委員報告那第二個趨勢除了他的運作網絡以外可以注意到的是他們的議題的操作在中共軍演的期間當時的爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的這些所謂的演習的一個活動那到了現階段因為開始進入了美選的高峰季那也確實向媒體相關的討論跟報導"},{"start":4201.041,"end":4225.8,"text":"有越來越多的證訊是聚焦在所謂質疑那美國會不會持續的對台灣提供堅定的安全承諾以及台灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性以及那些軍品到底對於台海防衛作戰有沒有用處的這些討論那這些正義訊息我們都有持續的來關注那我們會判定他們正義訊息對於社會衝擊的程度來即時通報到各單位來對外說明跟應出"},{"start":4226.34,"end":4245.243,"text":"好,因為面對就是其實我們的民主友邦在進行所謂的整個權力的改組或是選舉的過程當中中國最想的就是見縫插針,製造台灣民心的動盪然後有機會來宣擾一波、干擾一波,我想這個國安局應該都有在準備當中"},{"start":4246.064,"end":4275.344,"text":"但是除了在透過這個民主陣營的選舉或者是權力改組的過程當中所引發的擾動之外其實中國對台灣的滲透是一直都持續的我想請這個局長看一下就是最近媒體都已經報導包括連法國的媒體都在提醒台灣華為用獵人頭的方式來挖角台積電的工程師我們都知道科技對於台灣現在來講是一個非常重要的一環經濟科技但是如果透過"},{"start":4277.705,"end":4297.797,"text":"變身的方式然後進入台灣把台灣的科技人才或關鍵技術蠶食驚吞那麼這個目前是國安局有注意到的一個樣態嗎過去我們看到的是一些關鍵技術被滲透但是如果不只是關鍵技術連台積電的工程師都會被挖角走的時候另外就是媒體也報導了"},{"start":4299.358,"end":4317.57,"text":"就是中共利用繞一圈的方式然後來台灣租AI的算力如果根據平面媒體的報導是目前台灣AI算力並用不到這麼多那麼很顯然就是有人用藉口上市的方式來做AI算力的租借我們都知道"},{"start":4317.97,"end":4328.034,"text":"美國針對中國是要求美國的企業不准投資中國對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除但是如果台灣變成是中國席產地的一環那麼這該怎麼辦?"},{"start":4331.838,"end":4352.938,"text":"對,這部分跟委員說明一下,那國安局針對防範中共對台灣的竊密挖角,我們有成立一個專欄機制那有一些成果也跟委員利用這個機會報告一下,大概從2021年到現在,我們偵辦的案件查查案件已經超過100多件那移送到檢方來起訴的已經有40幾件,那另外還有相關案件還在偵辦當中"},{"start":4354.139,"end":4370.424,"text":"其數四十幾天不代表只有這個數字還會持續的來不斷的調查跟正辦那這大概是第一部分那第二部分是針對這一些所謂的比較高科技的管制那經濟部這邊有所謂的這種出口管制的一個清單那這部分我們也持續的跟"},{"start":4371.844,"end":4372.604,"text":"後續是不是要把AI這部份"},{"start":4398.874,"end":4399.074,"text":"委員會持續與機關交換意見"},{"start":4413.176,"end":4434.782,"text":"因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰事實上它的變形非常的大也非常的廣對於國安局又或者是相關的單位來講好像就像我們過去講打炸這個每個部門都涉入其中現在的我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透也是變成是這樣"},{"start":4436.022,"end":4457.981,"text":"似乎變成是每個部會都必須要做一個緊密的相連那麼有關於到底AI算力要不要算要不要納入又或者是說像華為這樣的一個對於全球美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個所謂擁有後門城市然後侵擾全球安全的部分那麼要不要放入這個恐怕也要請"},{"start":4458.882,"end":4484.747,"text":"國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密的聯繫另外一個其實本席關注的就是美國的參議員都已經發聲了要怎麼樣來協防台灣相關那麼有關於管制協力者那麼我們要從源頭開始那麼現在就是國安局怎麼樣來協助我們台灣的廠商就是避免我們的晶片好像為華為所用那這個部分我們其實有了解嗎?"},{"start":4486.99,"end":4513.713,"text":"對於這個部分我剛也跟委員說明到有一些中國的廠商不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在台灣簽名挖角的我們是有一個專案的機制在進行相關的查查那也有一些起訴的一個進度出來那對於這個問題我們會持續的關注那正如委員所提到的因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於台灣出口管制的機制的更進一步的關切所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商"},{"start":4514.273,"end":4537.927,"text":"讓我們的管制機制更完善也是會來努力的一個重點那還有一點是跟廠商的溝通也就是說廠商自己要有相關的自律的一個機制那你必須要了解假如違反相關出口管制機制的話廠商本身可能也會變成是一個制裁的對象所以這部分跟廠商溝通我想我們會再跟經濟部門來做討論那看怎麼樣來強化這一部分的作為"},{"start":4538.447,"end":4561.835,"text":"好 因為時間有限喔本來我還要問到有關是這個你知道連醫護人才中國都來搶那像這個部分恐怕也要提醒這個國安局可能也要跟衛福部來討論最後的一分鐘喔我想要講的是中國會台的方式其實真的非常的多今天11月6號雙11馬上要來了我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶"},{"start":4563.035,"end":4569.798,"text":"普天蓋地的在台灣打廣告而且呢這到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴因為他現在用免運的方式這就是中國養套殺的一個策略我不知道局長同不同意他都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業等到他拿下這個產業之後他就來個殺無赦隨便讓我來開架"},{"start":4588.827,"end":4605.585,"text":"現在淘寶直接就在台灣打廣告然後就說免疫你所有的東西中國買不用運費這個衝擊到的是台灣的電商跟台灣的產業那麼這個算不算是一種中國的對台灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰或者是產業的入侵跟傷害"},{"start":4606.546,"end":4622.496,"text":"對,這部分我們有在注意,那正如委員所提到的,它涉及到一些電商法規還有相關的一個管理那國安局因為是情報機關,我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟夜管機關來做提醒,請他們要多加注意跟取締好,謝謝好,謝偉謝謝林楚瑩委員,局長請回接下來我們請王定宇、昭偉上台質詢"},{"start":4644.3,"end":4647.448,"text":"首先麻煩主席請博鴻輝副部長請博副部長"},{"start":4655.116,"end":4682.706,"text":"副部長我請教幾個問題這個問題其實遷到納稅人需要透明了解到我們現在進度有一段時間一直提出說我們對美採購重要的軍售裝備岩池、岩蕩當然你們都解釋過理由因為肺炎期間工廠關閉因為烏克蘭戰爭等等等等但最近有一些好消息我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道第一個問題海馬斯是不是已經到台灣了"},{"start":4684.554,"end":4695.524,"text":"這已經到台灣了我印象我們那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯說買了29套所以這一批來到台灣大概有幾套"},{"start":4696.83,"end":4718.147,"text":"11套11套那這11套抵達之後因為我看了美國這個他們那個自己的網頁上有公佈我們送去派訓的這些年輕的官兵們他們好像8月9號就授訓結業了嘛所以現在回來之後現在接裝我們大概多久可以形成戰力"},{"start":4719.969,"end":4748.908,"text":"涉及機敏你可以不回答報告委員我想您剛才問的都是蠻機敏的所以有關於你所做的這樣訓練的這樣子的一個模式我想還是保留一點因為這個欠到我們戰力的這個養成未來海馬斯的運用在國軍的想定它是什麼樣子的運用因為我們對灘頭已經有我們自己的雷霆2000了嘛所以它絕對不是當作這種雷霆2000這種大面積的火箭彈的運用嘛有人說它是指揮官的遠程舉起槍"},{"start":4750.591,"end":4756.951,"text":"在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對我們台灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方"},{"start":4758.24,"end":4780.174,"text":"報告委員我想這都是我們在所有在武器運用上來講一個國防機密的一個屬性我想我不變態細節但是就我們本身來講最後的這個戰力是必須要整合那整合起來它有分為長、中、近這樣子的一個射程的一個標定所以對整個戰術運用上來講"},{"start":4783.396,"end":4807.853,"text":"總長那邊都有一個特別的規劃我想這個請您放心我在這邊尋答這麼多年了基於國家利益保密是必要的但基於納稅人透明知道我們的詢問如果這兩個有漢格以國家利益為優先我再請教一件事情就是在年底前還有哪一些我們對美軍售的重要裝備我想不是一般的零附件的會送到台灣土耳B"},{"start":4809.194,"end":4809.214,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":4839.034,"end":4839.855,"text":"先麻煩請國安局長"},{"start":4866.816,"end":4894.287,"text":"我先問你每一選的問題就是說美國大選當然對我們台灣我們基本的政策是不押寶也不公開預測因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇那對台灣來講民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友而他們對台灣的政策其實都一樣的支持這個是我們的基本架構那因為"},{"start":4895.387,"end":4922.88,"text":"所謂不押寶不預測那代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備喔嗯是這樣沒錯不管A當選或B當選我都要有所準備那對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全的議題我相信我們政府都要有所準備所以我第一個請教是目前我們國安高層對美選因為他的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道對美選的結果你又是外交部出身的"},{"start":4923.8,"end":4947.537,"text":"目前有沒有什麼因應?有,事實上美國因為是台灣在印太地區產期最重要的夥伴之一那對於美國的國內選情我們非常的關注那因為它是一個動態長期的一個過程所以在過去這段時間我們都會整一些相關美國選情發展的一個狀況那以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上台的國安人士的佈局那以及他們對於經貿、對中"},{"start":4949.458,"end":4978.601,"text":"還有台海政策的政策的立場從他們的一些國安幕僚來做一些收研那這部分我們都有一些完成的準備局長你還講到我覺得我要問的這涵蓋到人事嘛他的國安人事、內閣人可能的人事嘛對他的政策選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西這些政策會落實有哪些對於台海也好對周邊的連鎖效應因為這涵蓋到經濟啊對國防啊甚至於外交啦"},{"start":4979.461,"end":5004.34,"text":"還有一些相關的安全議題搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到所以在因應這樣的準備上我們國家是採取什麼層級有用到國安會議來準備嗎事實上在會議當中也都會討論到一些外在的一些狀況包括美國跟日本相關選舉的狀況都有相關的討論所以國安會議有納入這個議題有在討論那也是跨部會在做準備對有"},{"start":5006.172,"end":5028.202,"text":"那到目前為止每選的人選我們是一件事情美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當的分裂我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣子分裂的美國對於政黨他那個party issue太強烈了未來這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的concern"},{"start":5029.377,"end":5055.177,"text":"這部分當然在選舉過程當中不只是美國的選舉各國選舉因為選情的激化難免都會有比較二元化兩極化的一些社會的氛圍存在那但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同聲音在表述之後透過新的行政團隊跟國會行政立法之間還有國會內部不同政黨的討論來針對後續的一個政策對抗提出一些共識出來"},{"start":5056.658,"end":5076.505,"text":"平估美選後,不管誰當選,台美之間的安全合作、地緣政治的多邊組織等等,會不會有變化?基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變。那事實上在拜登的印太戰略的一些布局,有很多也是延續到"},{"start":5077.125,"end":5077.185,"text":"其實我認為我們該"},{"start":5095.958,"end":5121.53,"text":"關心的就是這一塊,大方向那個格局是國際架構,其實要改變,結構性的問題很難改變,比如說中國的擴張主義啊,中國不遵守國際規範啊,或者相關的地緣政治的矛盾衝突,那個架構不會變,所以不管誰當選,在運作這個國際規範上的架構是不一樣的,但是不同的政黨,不同的人,他在處理的方法,"},{"start":5122.31,"end":5142.811,"text":"會不一樣這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分對我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅可能到100那賀錦麗認為這部分可能要再討論"},{"start":5146.094,"end":5158.402,"text":"對還有他認為說假如牽台的話講到200所以我的意思是說我們觀察重點就在這些細節他們的政策方向上大致是一致的也就是至終有台那但是在細節的處理上會不太一樣方向都是要開這個藥有人是吃半顆有人開兩粒"},{"start":5164.426,"end":5179.899,"text":"這個其實對台灣在經貿安全影響是很重大影響對一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了是比如說CPTPP比方說QUAD比方說AUKUS其實兩位的主張是不太一樣的"},{"start":5180.62,"end":5195.065,"text":"那這個不一樣當中對第一島鏈對於我們這邊安全議題其實會構成一定的影響那有人擔心什麼軍售什麼我覺得那一塊反而變化不大在這個部分的話我們目前國安單位準備的方式"},{"start":5196.225,"end":5197.766,"text":"最近發現當共諜背叛國家不管什麼樣的身份該重辦"},{"start":5219.042,"end":5241.612,"text":"但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻或者像德恩都被要求拍一個像解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片國安局有沒有研判為什麼就你已經當間諜我還讓你拍影片"},{"start":5244.153,"end":5269.99,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?當然這點應該是秘密的可以收集破壞台灣了解國安資料還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效衝不抵抗他的目的是什麼?對我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的一個效忠那也許情報工作應該是要低調但他這部分比較屬於的是一種心理戰的操作那一旦台海有任何的事況發生的話可以來散佈這些影片來造成一種氣氛因為好幾件了嘛"},{"start":5272.973,"end":5291.933,"text":"有拍影片有七件那這七件當中我認為除了是要打擊我們的軍方士氣這些老鼠屎最對不起的是自己軍中跑者99.99的人進中職守保護國家你這些老鼠屎"},{"start":5294.024,"end":5310.069,"text":"讓國軍被罵其實那個已經找不到什麼話來罵他們但是還拍這影片除了打擊士氣外加一個作用分化人民跟軍方之間的互信所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶"},{"start":5310.989,"end":5327.029,"text":"對,就以委員剛所提到向德恩的那個案子來講,最後院方是用貪污自對條例來判,才能判到7年我有為了質詢去詢問,他說他們認為很可惡,就發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠"},{"start":5328.37,"end":5346.619,"text":"現在的罰則在一個灰色地帶不容易適用然後查到他有收錢所以用貪汙之類條例辦他他如果有間諜的行為當然就用共諜方式來辦他所以顯示這個行為我相信在場沒有黨派之分都認為不適當但是目前法律有一個漏洞"},{"start":5348.266,"end":5359.637,"text":"這個不是言論自由有人說那是言論自由開什麼玩笑國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠這如果叫言論自由的話國家還在嗎所以法律有個洞嘛所以本席有提一個修法案"},{"start":5362.165,"end":5389.755,"text":"我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形那國安法而且是不只是限定軍人相關單位向中共要武力犯台去表忠表示不抵抗這個行為其實是不僅不足取不僅不道德而且如果是公職人員不管是什麼身份的公職人員哪怕是民意代表這都是違法的行為所以我們應該用法律補上這個弄動我提這個國安法"},{"start":5390.575,"end":5414.869,"text":"相關的修正,國安局應該有看過,你對這個法的態度是什麼?對,我們樂觀其成,那也確實是有處理到目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間這確實是一個洞,這個洞要堵起來因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定去發展組織的,我們現在國安法重罰,從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了,就參與組織的"},{"start":5417.01,"end":5439.39,"text":"變沒事這個不對這個法其實不應該有黨派之分我也希望在我們的立法院也許我們很多事情有重大的分歧甚至於有肢體衝突但對於國家安全我們應該是同一個國家的人應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院的時候"},{"start":5440.469,"end":5440.869,"text":"請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":5479.957,"end":5482.6,"text":"上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵去赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭那邊境上面開始協助作戰那好像是有一萬多人"},{"start":5500.52,"end":5511.96,"text":"看來北韓和俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實時派兵的階段有沒有注意到北韓和俄羅斯在1號的時候雙方的外長進行了會談會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作"},{"start":5514.075,"end":5537.824,"text":"對,這兩個國家的合作因為在6月已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約那俄國國會也在,我沒有記錯的話應該9月份也通過了這個條約那顯示他們的一個合作進入到一個新的階段那包括在軍事技術上的還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的以及這一次士兵的投入到俄烏的戰場那都變成是他們一個合作架構裡面非常重要的具體的行為"},{"start":5538.584,"end":5553.566,"text":"局長他明天有講到說地獄方之一遭到侵略的時候必須互相提供軍事協助這個你也有掌握嗎?有換言之說萬一如果北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助對我剛剛也跟盧美琳委員在討論這件事"},{"start":5557.529,"end":5582.537,"text":"所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞,歐洲不是只有歐洲,伊朗中東也不是只有中東,所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起,我們可以這樣去認知它嗎?對,有高度的聯動性。那這樣子的聯動性的話,我們就必須要評估,未來在台海之間,我們看到俄羅斯,或者是在日本海,或者是在南海,我們看到俄羅斯的存在性,或者是說它的威脅性提高的可能,是不是也是相應的增加?"},{"start":5584.149,"end":5613.429,"text":"對,都是相應的增加嘛那我想要請教說目前北韓跟俄羅斯之間的軍事的這個協同的狀態是什麼樣?對北韓軍隊的表現是怎麼樣?俄羅斯的這個指揮跟這個北韓之間的契合的狀況是怎麼樣?他們是表現的好?表現的像他們在這個閱兵大典一樣好像是都是這個氣勢很強能力很強還是其實是完全我們是在過去媒體高度的強化美化他們的能力"},{"start":5614.269,"end":5640.844,"text":"因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始的那北韓的部隊士兵也才剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作那我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員有在說明因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊都是步兵那擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透那不過在俄烏戰場因為他的屬性比較特殊北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係你要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊雙方混合變組"},{"start":5641.904,"end":5660.909,"text":"來進行一些戰場上的聯合的一個行動這大概是第一點說明那第二點說明是北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙那我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了他們北韓的士兵也必須要學習俄國的軍事用語聽說學習的軍事用語有100個可是在學習的過程當中那個適應跟理解還有兩國部隊的這個聯合訓練的狀況還有一個很大的一個磨合期"},{"start":5670.351,"end":5694.112,"text":"這大概是我們在公開情詞目前掌握的狀況磨合的狀況不佳然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求第三個我要請教有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視歧視目前還沒有相關的資訊因為他們才剛剛開始進行他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練那適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯"},{"start":5694.813,"end":5712.237,"text":"各種外媒都已經有流出當初俄羅斯的士兵在去抨擊北韓軍人的這個語音都有流出來了各種外媒都有所以實質上他們是有受到歧視的換言之北韓跟俄羅斯之間不管是在他們國與國之間是一回事普丁跟金正恩是一回事"},{"start":5712.617,"end":5730.471,"text":"但是在他們這個彼此之間的國家之間的交流其實是相對低的而且之間的這種種族歧視是實質上是存在的我相信我們必須要透過這樣立法院的這樣的質詢要讓所有的不管是在哪一個地區的民眾看到中國地區的民眾也要知道俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往"},{"start":5730.731,"end":5730.751,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":5760.691,"end":5761.372,"text":"北韓軍隊在歐洲戰場表現如何?"},{"start":5777.745,"end":5794.334,"text":"如果是不好的話我們必須要讓民眾知道說不是大家想像的這樣最近有很多退役將你常常在一些我們的這個不同的電視台或者是這個社群平台不斷的強調說這個中國的軍事能力北韓的軍事能力朝鮮的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強"},{"start":5798.436,"end":5819.492,"text":"但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態那甚至說我們看到這個我們前一頁看到說中俄朝還有伊朗他們其實是在聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣比方說這個中國的這個中央的這個相關的這些電視台就會說哇伊朗的防空的防禦現場有多強"},{"start":5820.493,"end":5844.599,"text":"幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來事實上不是嘛但是對於不同文化就我根本看不懂伊朗的這個文字的話或者說我們根本不知道實質上面的狀況他們的地理位置我們沒有可以做依據的點的話我們就會有些人就會信以為真不斷的傳這個假訓行就是說中國的軍事能量多好防空能力多好已經進到伊朗還協助伊朗成功的來抵禦以色列的導彈"},{"start":5845.379,"end":5866.813,"text":"這不是正確的因為事實上幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要的這些設施所以我必須強調說接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰現在就是會說北朝北朝有多強啊俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係但我們要做的就是要讓大家知道說其實不是其實不是這樣子所以中國對於"},{"start":5868.786,"end":5875.242,"text":"被朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作他們現在的態度又是如何?他是非常滿意的嗎?他們是開心的嗎?"},{"start":5876.631,"end":5903.924,"text":"對,這部分我們發現到的是中國的處境是比較尷尬的也就是說一方面他當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制但是另一方面中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入因為深入之後又會降低到北韓對於對於中國的一個戰略上的一個依賴所以中國在這過程當中他處於一個戰略尷尬的一個局面所以"},{"start":5904.964,"end":5927.092,"text":"不是鐵板一塊中國、俄羅斯、俄羅斯、朝鮮、朝鮮、中國、中國、伊朗、伊朗、俄羅斯其實每個國家他們這四個你要說這些威權國家的這些關係不是我們想像中威權所以就會站在一起沒有彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰包含北韓他在永和這個問題上面中國會支持嗎?"},{"start":5927.952,"end":5944.986,"text":"中國不一定是支持的或是反對的他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯來合作所以在輿論上面其實現在對台灣來講是非常友善不然國際社會、歐洲等等但過去不一定是這樣的"},{"start":5945.626,"end":5975.046,"text":"我們過去24年來我們經歷過很長的一段時間台灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一份子比如說談到中國才會談到台灣但現在台灣已經跳出來為什麼我們有足夠的經濟我們有足夠的防衛能量我們可以扮演角色所以接下來我們就要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色我們看到中俄朝在軍事上面的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來浮上檯面還有資源的交換那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本包含美國"},{"start":5975.946,"end":5998.752,"text":"這些資源的交換這些情報的分享這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣?有,事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密那有些因為是情報合作關係沒有辦法公開來討論但基本上在合作的議題上對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊還有複合式的威脅台灣站在第一線"},{"start":5999.572,"end":6000.612,"text":"臺灣累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享"},{"start":6022.879,"end":6023.059,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6053.359,"end":6069.051,"text":"相應來如果照民主的指標來看沒有像台灣是一個強韌的民主那不代表我們不可以跟他合作包含印尼包含南海的各聲索國我們必須要跟他們知道說我們的利害是一致的你要怎麼說服他們說你們的利害是一致的我們要怎麼說服說我們的行動是一致的"},{"start":6069.651,"end":6096.448,"text":"這才是我們必須要釋放出的分享的情報比如說這個中國最近在南海哪一個地方可能是對於我國的這個我們已經實質擁有的主權的這個島的部分他是怎麼樣影響之外甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡有影響到比如說越南有影響到比如說菲律賓我們的敘事框架必須要一致我們的利害必須要一致"},{"start":6097.168,"end":6118.398,"text":"跟我們價值相關的我們繼續推動價值外交沒有問題跟我們價值不一樣的我們用地緣政治的外交去講跟我們價值跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的我們就可以更進一步比方說我們剛剛提到說怎麼樣得到最新式的這個裝備我們一直在講說灰色青老我們能不能跟這個海巡這個裝備能不能快速的有效的應對"},{"start":6119.918,"end":6137.731,"text":"現在去製造的話可能需要5年10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制但如果沒有辦法的話是不是可以討入租借的可能性目前我們記得是這個烏克蘭的租借法後有美藝園在提到台灣的租借法有沒有提到相關的現在的進展是怎麼樣有沒有相關的這樣的情報"},{"start":6138.311,"end":6154.489,"text":"對,我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作那我們當然是廣結善緣不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作那我們自己有我們自己的強項那其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方那透過這樣的一個合作來建立起一種比較互補"},{"start":6155.33,"end":6155.35,"text":"謝謝局長"},{"start":6184.7,"end":6208.378,"text":"這個我必須強調說他們的能力增加的時候我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話那就是快速的跟我們你說理念相近的國家跟我們價值相近國家利害相近國家跟他們不管是用租界或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要那最後我還是要強調一下最近中共的西松東井的戰略最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化那有些人是這個"},{"start":6210.399,"end":6236.765,"text":"就會說這個是表示中共讓步那我個人會比較警惕一點我認為他是想把資源往東部移動是不是有這種可能性對因為中印對因為中印才剛剛簽署他們邊境巡邏的相關的一個協定那看起來是有在控管彼此的雙邊的關係那主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重所以特別在"},{"start":6237.465,"end":6261.418,"text":"這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係所以我是擔心說他把這些相關的這個軍事支援他可能會移到這個東部甚至是台灣這我們來注意這我們來注意那有這樣的消息我們就是盡量來反映給其他的這些部委跟委員說明一下因為中印的邊境的問題他是結構的他現在只是在管理並沒有辦法根本的解決非常好"},{"start":6262.139,"end":6279.039,"text":"這是結構的問題那我必須強調那我們跟印度之間的這個關係更是要重視因為就算他是百分之百中立的狀況也會讓中國有所忌憚那這就是 deterrence 這就是戰略的這個嚇阻因為他們必須還是要把資源"},{"start":6280.04,"end":6305.806,"text":"分布在一部分還是要在西部所以我們跟這個印度之間的交往不管是在你說這個商業上面軍事上面科技上面都還是會給中共施擔一點壓力戰那我們的重點我們所有的不管是情報工作軍事工作的重點就是要讓中國他的計算更加複雜化就是要讓他能夠再想一次當他們要做出任何對台灣擴大衝突的時候"},{"start":6308.021,"end":6329.064,"text":"有沒有可能會完全失敗有沒有可能會部分失敗讓他不斷的在思考這個地方那特別你要想到他的周邊的這個各個國家都是跟他地緣真的是有挑戰的而不是友好的越南也好那最近有看到越南這一個這個在南海捕魚被中國包圍這一些東西我們都必須如果台灣有類似的狀況的話"},{"start":6330.405,"end":6333.406,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員 局長請回接下來我們請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":6368.993,"end":6369.694,"text":"國防部副部長、人事參謀次長"},{"start":6387.908,"end":6410.36,"text":"副部長好我也好那這個呢因為剛剛財政委會發生很多事情那這個副部長應該也知道另外一個副部長也去財政委員會那邊那現在我們討論這些事情的意義會變得已經變得很局限了為什麼呢就是因為剛剛如果按照國民黨硬推的這個財化法通過的話國防部啊最嚴重的狀況可以影響到2900多億的預算"},{"start":6413.802,"end":6438.249,"text":"兩千九百多億的預算就包含作業的維持費軍事的採購這些全部都不用了那我們現在在這邊討論這些事情可能都已經變得沒有意義了國防部直接廢一半了所以我很痛心就是說本來今天是有機會因為我在禮拜一強烈的要求財政委員會一定要讓國防部在場因為國防部很有可能是被砍最多預算的單位藍白在對外媒說明的時候一直在講說他們絕對不會動國防預算"},{"start":6440.553,"end":6462.056,"text":"也說什麼這個前件他們不會去搞結果呢現在直接從才化法把中央的預算直接拿掉國防部現在就可以準備收一收了啦所以我覺得這是一件非常嚴重的事情也希望在接下來這一個月之內會進入朝野協商我們很需要國防部強烈的表達這樣的一個意見"},{"start":6462.837,"end":6486.398,"text":"我們今天不能當散財童子每一個縣市都給100億、200億然後國防部直接少了2900多億這國家現在就不用守護了所以我覺得這件事情真的非常的嚴重那今天部長不在但是副部長我覺得一樣因為畢竟兩位副部長針對這個預算的部分是特別的熟悉所以希望如果財務委員會還能夠正常運作的話希望能夠表達這樣的一個意見"},{"start":6487.58,"end":6514.788,"text":"是委員我想國防預算象徵了我們防衛自主的決心如果說對國防預算的刪減對於我們來講對於尤其國際上的宣示自我防衛決心是不夠的所以我們建議就是說在這樣的情況下應該把國防預算要列入優先考量不應該刪減國防預算因為這個我們曉得每一天中共的灰色地帶的衝突"},{"start":6515.948,"end":6542.64,"text":"維繞著台灣周邊他是非常嚴峻的挑戰那如果說我們在現在的國防預算規模都略選不足的情況下還要再刪減的話那如何應對中共對我們灰色地帶的洗腦和衝突我想這個是我們都應該在未來我們全體國人應該要考量國防預算不能刪減而同時我們如果要展現我們自我防衛決心國防預算應該是要逐漸成長那這樣對我們在"},{"start":6544.941,"end":6569.193,"text":"中共這樣子的一個強大的壓力情況下我們也是一個對他展現一個我們自我防衛決心一個deterrence的一個這樣子的一個戰力的表現我想這個是非常重要的我們也預期在所有的這個採取法的過程當中應該要考量國防的這樣子的一個處境那也希望能夠確保國防預算的能夠保留"},{"start":6569.938,"end":6586.634,"text":"謝謝副部長那也希望接下來能夠這一個呢這個今天這個是財政財委會是長次出席他根本就沒有發言的機會今天連陳其邁市長都來也都沒有發言的機會那但無論如何就是也希望能夠讓"},{"start":6588.055,"end":6608.686,"text":"我們的士兵讓我們的官兵知道這件事因為他們首當其衝啊他們現在不了解這件事情如果今天這件事情真的發生了過了一個月朝野協商之後如果真的暴力通過的話國防真的是首當其衝首當其衝我們剛剛講的作業維持跟軍備不是少是作業維持跟軍備可以完全沒有一毛不剩"},{"start":6609.906,"end":6630.472,"text":"這個對現在國防的一個運作應該是非常大的一個打擊所以一定要有一些對岸這是非常重要的那另外因為今天時間的關係我想問一下就是跟這個國安有關的問題那這個可能就要請這個人事參謀這邊來回答就是說我這邊有兩件事第一個事情就是這個是比較久以前的事情了"},{"start":6631.412,"end":6659.813,"text":"大概幾個月前這件事情是他已經除籍了他已經沒有台灣籍了他其實三歲的時候入籍台灣但之後就在中國長大了在中國長大了但是已經沒有台灣籍了但最後他回到台灣的時候還是去當兵那這個我覺得不是國防部直接決定的事情這應該是內政部、議政司、陸委會等等之類的他們做了這樣的一個決定那這個我覺得OK"},{"start":6660.493,"end":6675.082,"text":"內政部那邊我們會再去詢問他們對這種事情的風險評估是什麼因為畢竟我們不會認為說今天只要是台灣人然後在中國長大其實這個基數滿多的那他們在中國長大不代表他們今天一定會被中國滲透嘛"},{"start":6675.402,"end":6693.235,"text":"他也有可能在那邊長大反而他更了解中國的問題但問題是他一定會有一些風險指標而有這些風險指標的話國防部要怎麼評估就變得非常重要這個就連結到所以這個我不會直接問我要問的是下一個問題就是如果今天他在台灣的會期是沒有除的"},{"start":6694.284,"end":6722.256,"text":"那如果按照內政部現在這樣的一個說法他在台灣的戶籍也還在但是在中國那邊長大那他回來要當兵那這件事情呢因為呢我們有收到相關的公文我不會把公文放在這個上面但是這個時候呢內政部他就會有一些疑問比如說他今天如果是在中國他念的比如說他是西北工業大學哈爾濱工業大學或者南京理工大學就是這一些大學呢被認為跟解放軍的關係是比較密切的"},{"start":6722.896,"end":6749.378,"text":"那在左邊這邊我列的是這一些大學呢他們有些是直接被美國列入實體制裁的清單那現在這個對我們來講就會稍微有點不一樣了雖然他有可能他了解中國的問題但是因為他的家人可能在中國然後再加上呢他念的大學跟解放軍關係密切他回到台灣之後呢內政部醫政司可能就會來問國防部說他念了這一個特殊的這個大學是不是優先應該去空軍"},{"start":6752.44,"end":6778.96,"text":"這個時候呢因為人事就必須要做這個回答嘛那我們看到現在的回答是比較簡單的比較簡略的沒有一個風險評估的指標所以我這邊想問一下就是因為像這樣的事情可能會層出不窮我們也不是說他們不能當兵不是但是那一個指標現在有沒有我們風險要怎麼做評估然後才可以一方面呢他本來就要盡他這個當兵的義務但是呢我們也要守護我們的國家安全我們的機密資料"},{"start":6780.402,"end":6782.184,"text":"人事事現在對這件事情有沒有什麼處理?"},{"start":6798.005,"end":6825.372,"text":"所謂像類似這樣子的一個教育的方式的話是不是回國來擔任這個服兵役的這個要件這在法律上來講我們是必須要支持這樣的兵役的制度你不能說因為我讀了什麼我就不能夠大家都跑去那邊去讀書都不用服兵役了那當然不行但風險指標來管控的話第一個我們在進來的時候我們會對人員的考核也就是說你接觸的方式過去你"},{"start":6826.232,"end":6843.23,"text":"曾經在這個不管是你所謂的七大這個學校裡面在讀書的時候你所接觸到層面是如何這是第一個在風險管控第二個我們會去看你的教育狀況也會去檢查這也是風險的管控和你的聯絡的方式哪些人聯絡的方式"},{"start":6843.931,"end":6865.287,"text":"那最重要的是說第三個我們在派訓的時候呢一定不會派到精品單位那他是屬於一個什麼勤務補充我舉例來講比如說這113年我們有17個這樣子的人出現那事實上來講有6位他是服補充病就是12天的補充病他已經除疫了那事實上我們在這過程當中發現他並沒有異狀那還有11位現在是服4個月的"},{"start":6871.411,"end":6888.486,"text":"七個已經服完兵役了那事實上我們在這過程當中我們也會從旁來觀察這樣子的一個條件的學生加入到我們部隊行列的時候重視他不接觸機敏他有沒有不當的聯繫的關係那我想這些都是我們在軍隊中風險管控應該要做的謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":6891.748,"end":6918.414,"text":"對齁那因為剛剛有講到一些數字啦是那我希望因為這個可能我覺得不要公開但是譬如說過往數字大概多少然後過往的一些決定的標準以及因為這個我們就是滾動式嘛是那我們也不用直接把標準告訴他們不然大家都跑去念直接學校了是是是那所以就是說過往然後從現在開始我們會不會有新列什麼標準大概譬如說人事這邊能不能夠即使是用機密的方式都沒有關係是不是看能夠在多長的時間能夠給一份報告"},{"start":6918.834,"end":6923.996,"text":"好沒問題委員我想我們人事室他本來就已經有做這樣子風險評估我們大概一個月好不好是的沒問題謝謝那接下來是跟這個國安比較相關的請國安局局長謝謝"},{"start":6939.179,"end":6958.592,"text":"委員好局長好這個是我剛好這一陣子在這個經濟委員會的時候所遇到的一個問題就是說因為之前新聞報導說台積電這個AI相關的這個晶片流過去流過去經過了一些白手套那白手套最主要是那個算能科技那算能科技在中國那邊是屬於比特大陸"},{"start":6959.272,"end":6987.791,"text":"那當時算能科技在台灣其實它有另外一家公司但後來當然就是被查了被查了之後看起來重複的人員又跑到算能科技那我們後來才發現不管是華為、比特大陸跟算能科技它完全不在我們目前的實體的這個制裁清單上面它不在經濟部、國、貿屬上面的清單而理由是因為當時我們的清單想跟著美國走結果我們跟著美國走的時候呢因為美國制裁華為非常的早"},{"start":6988.491,"end":7005.366,"text":"我們這邊清單並沒有同步做更新我們在詢問的過程當中他們說他們三個月會更新一次下次會滾動性考量因為到我說真的華為、彼特大陸跟算能科技這個對我們來講絕對是非常嚴重的一望即知但是他們也有說國安單位有一些別的考量"},{"start":7006.087,"end":7028.599,"text":"所以我這邊想問一下就是以現在來說因為他們想要更新這個可能是過往的事情他可能有詢問國安單位那時候是不是局長搞不好都不是但總之那時候國安單位是比較保守的一個態度但現在因為如果經濟部在用這樣的一個理由說這個如果說我們可能還是要問一下國安局還是要問一下陸委會所以在這邊反而是想要問局長對於這件事情的態度大概為何"},{"start":7029.239,"end":7051.702,"text":"對基本上我們對於高科技的管制那當然都會從國安的角度來認為說政府應該要建立起一個完整的清單以及相關的管制機制那目前的一個管制清單主要是包括聯合國跟美國提供的相關的廠商的名單再由業管單位經濟部這邊召開跨部會的會議來進行研討哪些企業該放到這個管制清單上面去"},{"start":7052.182,"end":7064.407,"text":"就國安局的角度來講我們會參與相關的討論當然會重演把關來針對這些管制的一些項目來提供我們的意見我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員在說明事實上從2021年到現在為止我們所啟動查查的相關中共竊密攬財的相關案子已經超過100件那100件當中有42件應該已經都遭到檢方的起訴"},{"start":7076.272,"end":7099.366,"text":"所以我們會持續的來針對中共可能透過各種的空殼公司還有其他的協力公司在台灣進行簽名或攬財也會同時來注意所以一方面加強科技的出口的一個管制那另一方面也必須要來查查不同的個案中共是透過怎麼樣的一個管道來對我們的高科技的人才進行拉攏或是針對一些高科技的產品來進行間接的一個採購"},{"start":7100.626,"end":7125.685,"text":"謝謝局長因為這件事情比如說彼特大陸這個他已經發生了那華為是比較早期的但是基本上他跟中國的關係太深了所以在這邊希望國安單位能夠給精心部好的建議那不然的話他們兩手一攤說有可能有別的建議到時候並沒有把這個放入實體清單也包含像現在淘寶到處在下廣告都可能會有這些竊取個資等等相關的問題希望國安單位一併考量那因為時間到了剩下的我就下次再詢問謝謝局長謝謝委員謝謝主席"},{"start":7132.253,"end":7133.854,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員 局長請回謝謝 那接下來有請林軍委員謝謝主席 有請國安局長趙薇好"},{"start":7160.146,"end":7186.303,"text":"我想先請問一下局長台灣現在跟俄羅斯的關係應該是這幾年來最惡劣的時候吧?對,我們事實上在幾年前已經終止了跟俄國全面的貿易關係那另外在俄烏戰爭之後那也因為台灣基於價值理念提供烏克蘭很多的一個援助包括人道的援助那俄國對這方面的台灣的援助也有一些維持所以也把台灣列為不友好的國家"},{"start":7188.056,"end":7213.305,"text":"從美國彭博社這個禮拜的新聞報導有看到發現今年十月份的台灣石化工業進行創紀錄的俄羅斯的石腦油本席在根據經濟部的統計所以俄羅斯是現在台灣第三大煤炭的進口的來源國也是第六大天然氣進口的來源這說明了我們台灣對俄羅斯其實有一定的人員上面的依賴"},{"start":7214.225,"end":7229.8,"text":"再加上俄羅斯跟中國現在是所謂的全面戰略協作的合夥伴的關係那是不是表示俄羅斯如果配合中國對台灣實施制裁那我們是不是可能會比被中國禁止我們台灣的龍魚"},{"start":7231.241,"end":7233.983,"text":"國安局有沒有分析,那俄羅斯在哪些狀況之下會減少甚至停止對台灣石化原料的供應?那國安局內部的兵推有沒有做過這樣的想定?"},{"start":7247.39,"end":7274.739,"text":"對,我們國安大會是有在提醒相關的公營或國營企業在進行相關的能源採購應該也要考慮到相關地緣政治的問題那不過我們初步的理解是有些契約他可能之前就已經簽訂了那這個部分可能還要有一個契約的相關法律的一個評估那另外一方面就是民間的企業那怎麼樣來約制民間企業可能有這樣的合作行為可能也是另外一個評估的重點"},{"start":7276.566,"end":7280.361,"text":"希望國安局之後的兵推還是要繼續設想這種可能發生的想法"},{"start":7281.974,"end":7306.489,"text":"那接下來我再問一下就是北韓上個禮拜才試射一枚火星19的洲際的飛彈然後11月4號又朝東部的海域發射好幾枚的飛彈那從射程上面來看應該至少是中程彈道的飛彈洲際洲際這一顆是洲際彈道飛彈對那請問一下那局長你認為北韓當局的政治的目的是什麼呢"},{"start":7307.37,"end":7329.288,"text":"對,委員剛有提到,就圖面上所顯示的就10月31號北韓發射的火星19型的洲際彈道飛彈那正如委員所提到的,這一次的飛彈它飛行的高度有到7600公里然後飛行的時間有到85分鐘那這是北韓所有歷史上測試的飛彈飛行的距離跟時間最長的一次那我們認為在這時間點"},{"start":7332.952,"end":7344.124,"text":"主要目的有幾個部分第一個部分當然就是在鞏固北韓內部的一種團結跟內聚力那第二部分就是在對外的部分希望在美國大選期間來展示美國"},{"start":7345.746,"end":7369.643,"text":"美國來知道北韓已經擁有這種核導的地位也就是核武跟導彈的一個能力那同時在新政府美國新政府上台之後可以以這個當籌碼希望美國在美韓聯合軍演應該要更所謂的減少那同時在對於北韓的制裁也應該要放鬆所以北韓是透過這些內外因素的評估那我們認為才會有這個美國大選階段的一個飛彈試射的一個動作"},{"start":7371.235,"end":7396.45,"text":"剛才說到了北韓的飛彈,局長你有沒有發現,就是俄烏戰爭爆發之前,然後北韓有好幾年的時間,其實在長城飛彈上面的技術好像都是遇到了瓶頸,但是過去這一年中,北韓在發射的技術方面,無論是衛星還是長城的飛彈,失敗率好像都是大幅的下降,那是不是會印證俄羅斯可能有提供北韓飛彈技術上面的猜想呢?"},{"start":7396.67,"end":7414.057,"text":"有,這部分確實有這樣的一個關聯性那因為在過去這一年多的時間那經過雙方的一個互動在大概去年11月我們就注意到委員所講的北韓四射的導彈還有衛星火箭它的成功率有提高"},{"start":7414.697,"end":7431.013,"text":"我們相信這背後應該是有俄國在技術上提供的援助那這個過程當中除了北韓接收到俄國提供的火箭技術以外北韓也供應了非常多的砲彈給俄國在俄烏戰場來使用那從公開的資訊來看北韓已經運送大概有13000多個貨櫃"},{"start":7432.975,"end":7451.076,"text":"提供的都是軍需品給俄國,所以他們雙方基於這樣各取所需的情況之下,俄國提供北韓精元跟導彈技術,那北韓提供俄國相關的一個軍需用品跟目前的士兵到俄國去,所以有看到雙方的戰略合作關係似乎越來越緊密。"},{"start":7454.411,"end":7481.289,"text":"俄羅斯用人員出口跟輸出飛彈的技術換取北韓的軍事資源的話那中國的話也是私底下可能會提供俄羅斯資源加上我們觀察到中國這幾年有一個極音速的飛彈發展有一個突飛猛進的趨勢那我們一般會推測中國是不是用軍事資源的交換方面俄羅斯的飛彈的技術呢但是今年初的路透社的報導就是俄羅斯前後"},{"start":7481.949,"end":7483.87,"text":"局長,你認為中國的極音速飛彈這幾年突飛猛進,靠的是跟俄羅斯交換的技術還是中國自己的技術上面的突破呢?"},{"start":7502.517,"end":7503.577,"text":"好,那謝謝局長,那我有請國防部副部長"},{"start":7536.281,"end":7536.464,"text":"召開好"},{"start":7538.32,"end":7565.638,"text":"副部長你知道最近我們台灣的國民都非常關注台灣與美國採購裝備上面的高效能反裝甲的飛彈的交付的進度所以今天本席想要請教一下副部長就是先前我們跟美國買的托式飛彈原本預定是6年前就要開始交貨了但是雖然載台的漢馬車已經完成交貨但為什麼飛彈拖到現在還是一旦未交呢是大約是要拖到什麼時候呢"},{"start":7568.68,"end":7583.35,"text":"王委員：王朝野剛也問過了那因為我們在美方在測試的時候最後出場的時候試射的時候他有很多系統上的瑕疵所以他重新組合了那美方也保證在今年年底之前會把所有的彈都會運送到台灣"},{"start":7585.916,"end":7604.89,"text":"因為我記得顧部長在5個月前他就已經說過說今年年底一定會完成嘛是完成全部的交貨對但是拖到現在我覺得說因為現在已經11月了是還交不出來然後可能又好像現在是11月然後如果真的按承諾如果交是不是有剩下"},{"start":7605.771,"end":7633.405,"text":"你看我們現在總共是要交1700枚嘛然後這樣的話如果是說現在都還沒有交出來還是現在已經交多少枚了呢那真的可以你這樣分析你覺得真的可以順利完成交貨嗎?幫委員這個因為美方的保證我想我也相信他們因為基於我們雙方的默契我這邊不做贅述但是我相信在今年年底我們Toros-2B的這個飛彈會全速運到台灣"},{"start":7634.624,"end":7659.676,"text":"那請國防部就是一定要緊追著我們後續的裝備的交付的進度因為如果裝備的交付有一些拖延的問題的話是不是請國防部要主動的積極的爭取也要主動的揭露因為不要那麼被動因為不要每次都是我們發現然後我們一直在追然後其實主動揭露的話其實對國軍的形象反而是有加分的因為主動揭露的話是不是也表示你國防部對裝備採購這是一個負責任的態度"},{"start":7663.138,"end":7678.741,"text":"那國防部做得到嗎?報委員我想軍售的部分因為牽扯到我們在合約的管理上的問題那有時候揭露這件事情我們有時候在合約上管理上來講還是必須尊重那至於說進度的揭露我們也希望讓透明化讓國人知道因為是公開預算我們當然希望我們主動會告訴國人那我想這個也是提醒美方我相信不只是我們"},{"start":7692.563,"end":7717.594,"text":"委員在美國參訪的時候也了解就是說這個進度他們也想趕上來但是委員去了以後我相信進度會更快為什麼因為督促的管道非常多那包含我們今天在駐美軍事代表團他會時時刻刻定到那個進度那我們國防部的管制他是非常嚴謹的所以委員你去參訪完了以後發現到這一進度事實上有很多的關卡在罷官"},{"start":7718.214,"end":7734.068,"text":"那至於說如何去揭露我想公共訊息的發布我們也會討論未來跟美方在軍售上來講我們去協商如何做不是只有我發布我認為在軍售國來講美方也應該共同跟我來發布這個訊息為什麼他會落後的原因我想原廠"},{"start":7734.949,"end":7750.4,"text":"他也必須要說明這個是對一個國際的軍售的保證我想這個都是我們在未來在委員的提醒之下我們如何去精進我們在這個交受進度上管制上來講如何去跟美方去配合來辦理謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":7750.9,"end":7765.805,"text":"因為這是美國對台灣的軍售延遲交付的狀況真的是蠻嚴重的啦所以我還是想說我們應該持續跟美方要爭取加快交付的進度那再來我再詢問一下副部長就是有關海軍後續艦艇的議題那海軍輕型的巡防艦的防空型前天才開始安放在龍谷還反潛行看來進度好像還蠻順利的"},{"start":7775.908,"end":7794.113,"text":"但是那國防部還有印象是說本席在上個月有曾經質詢的時候有提到一級艦都是普遍都是已經太老舊的問題本席想要請教副部長就是海軍目前有沒有下一代主力的作戰艦的規劃呢而且之前蔡英文總統也提出12項國艦國造的計畫這個會不會完成呢還是政策有沒有調整呢"},{"start":7801.141,"end":7814.758,"text":"這個是我們海軍在既定的新型行防艦新一代行防艦事實上來講它是非常成功的那我們後續也有後續艦的第二批的這個建設那同樣的防空型和反潛型的我們原型艦也在115年會做出來這些都蠻"},{"start":7818.502,"end":7844.233,"text":"這個合乎我們的要求和進度那我相信我們海軍在未來規劃上來講因應這個我們未來的這個敵情的威脅他會持續在建案那這對我們在未來的戰力上來講是有所提升我想這個都是海軍在未來來講他們都很有在系統上規劃我們也核定了他們未來的造艦計畫我想這個是既定的計畫都在依照我們的進度的計畫裡面來執行"},{"start":7846.405,"end":7866.559,"text":"據我了解12項的國建國造的計畫的核心除了潛艦之外最重要的應該就是政海計畫跟下一代的主力艦但是聽說中科院研發的雷達跟作戰的系統似乎又達不到要求所以挪動了整個原預算這樣接去做了輕型的"},{"start":7867.459,"end":7886.772,"text":"那問題是,國防部如果想要用輕型的巡防艦去面對這種高強度的作戰,這樣是不是會有點太勉強了?這是不是等於原本的戰力空缺問題還是存在呢?那請教一下副部長,就是國防部這樣的計畫到底是什麼呢?是放棄了升級海軍作戰艦了嗎?還是放棄了補給線呢?準備讓共軍來封鎖台灣了呢?"},{"start":7893.576,"end":7914.435,"text":"當然不是 我想我們的艦艇的配置重型的一級艦、二級艦、三級艦都是有它的所有計畫管制的其成那輕型巡防艦只是因應我們現代的灰色地帶衝突的洗腦增加了加上海巡的戰力 那我們如何來做搭配 因為輕型巡防艦是要"},{"start":7915.376,"end":7915.836,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":7946.075,"end":7947.557,"text":"徐曉新委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘紅色漢委員"},{"start":7981.297,"end":7984.583,"text":"警官局蔡局長警局長"},{"start":7990.869,"end":8014.497,"text":"謝謝主席 鴻文局長我們今天想要來跟你討論的問題是我們其實有很多政府部會的公務員或者是公部門裡面的約聘顧其實常常每天他們都會開很多會議或做包括做很多會議記錄那這些第一線的公務員其實他們包括個案的訪談或是這些會議記錄、訪談記錄"},{"start":8016.818,"end":8037.675,"text":"這些內容有的時候敏感有時候也不一定敏感但是裡面勢必都會有一些敏感的資訊在我們行政體系裡面所以我們其實我們也看到我們其實有很多公務體系的這個公務員或約聘戶協助做記錄他們常常會去使用這個錄音轉錄的這個文件的電子產品"},{"start":8042.879,"end":8068.139,"text":"那買這個來開會因為其實方便嘛那很快就可以把這個錄音把它轉成主次考或者是即時的翻譯那但是我不知道局長清不清楚其實這些電子產品你如果要去使用的話其實你都需要連線到一個第三方的APP但現在大家發現這些很多第三方的應用程式"},{"start":8070.185,"end":8076.245,"text":"大部分都是中國的資訊業者所以我要問局長第一個問題"},{"start":8077.591,"end":8107.117,"text":"你覺得像我們裡面假如有一些會議裡面有這些敏感的資訊使用這類的產品你覺得有沒有一些國安上面的風險?風險確實是存在喔那事實上我們也利用各種的機會在提醒中制的APP它本身就有存在治安的風險因為依照中共的相關的國安法規各個相關的軟體或企業必須要把他們所擁有的客戶的資訊要提供給相關的國安部門"},{"start":8107.757,"end":8136.058,"text":"所以這個問題的風險性是存在的局長OK我謝謝你很坦誠講這風險是存在其實這類的電子產品其實真的蠻好用的而且它價格很便宜所以我們其實有很多公務體系來說其實對它來講是很吸引人的就是說我買一個我就可以方便我工作很多但我想要跟局長講我們現在看到有一些看起來它可能是歐洲品牌"},{"start":8138.277,"end":8167.256,"text":"但是呢 這個電子設備它本身可能是歐洲品牌 它不是中國品牌喔但是它的第三方APP的公司呢 比方說像這個它是精華電子 深圳的精華電子那它的母公司 就是南京的熊貓電子南京熊貓電子的母公司 再是這個中國的電子信息那這當然是一家中國國務院獨資的公司"},{"start":8169.088,"end":8189.498,"text":"甚至我想這個局長已經清楚其實2020年當時有一個很這個國際上面非常非常大家都了解事件就是關於這個深圳的振華數據的這個事情那透過這個深圳的這一家中國的國有公司那做對很多明星、軍人、商人等等去做相關的監控當時就被發現了這樣的數據的資料"},{"start":8192.899,"end":8217.387,"text":"當然我們發現其實現在包括剛才講的金華數據跟這個振華其實他們的控制者是相同的所以就像我這邊想要說的事情是我自己覺得像我們現在看到的這個狀況我不知道國安局有沒有像我們相關部門在情收上面在情質上面做清楚的提供"},{"start":8218.643,"end":8247.145,"text":"這個部分我們比較關切的是剛跟委員報告的就是針對中置的這些自通訊產品或是APP的資安風險那來提出一些警示那事實上在上一屆立法院也在這個問題上有很多的討論那因為涉及到規範的依據到底有沒有一個規範的依據來讓一般的民眾或公務員在選擇中置的APP有一個所謂的法院的依據"},{"start":8249.168,"end":8262.807,"text":"中資品牌,產品本身不是中國品牌,所以是歐洲品牌,歐洲品牌去用了中國的APP,就像剛剛局長說用了中國的APP有可能資料會上傳會回傳,"},{"start":8266.915,"end":8281.668,"text":"國安局有沒有針對這件事情向速發部或相關部會提出示警?上屆立法院林靜雯有做這樣的提案希望由國安局提醒速發部相關的問題"},{"start":8284.631,"end":8300.757,"text":"在會後後來就請我們的科技副局長跟蘇發副的次長針對這個問題有做相關的一個討論局長當然問題是我們之前當然我們有修了這個所謂各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則對不對對只是這裡面我們的清單沒有公開嘛對不對"},{"start":8302.738,"end":8320.694,"text":"如果我們按照這個使用原則來做管理的話,局長你覺得我們管不管到剛才我們講的這件事情?這可能還有涉及到各個部門之間相關的一個...你覺得管不管得到?管不到啊?對,可能不太容易。"},{"start":8321.943,"end":8347.8,"text":"因為我們在這邊第一個清單沒有公佈所以我們其實是讓這個使用原則他現在用的做法是說讓治安署透過跨部會的協調平台跟各機關溝通其他的內容是什麼我們外界其實也不知道那剛剛在講的這個問題我們其實去了解了一下他可能只是要求針對大陸的品牌中國品牌禁止使用那這明顯就是一個洞啊"},{"start":8349.349,"end":8362.492,"text":"我們剛才講 局長也承認說這可能是有國安上面疑慮的問題精明資料可能會外洩被回傳的問題可是在這個使用原則裡面明顯管不到啊 局長你覺得"},{"start":8364.982,"end":8382.811,"text":"對,這個問題我們來注意,因為依照那個自通安全法管理法,確實是公務機關不能夠使用中國大陸所製的這些自通產品,是有這樣的規範可是委員剛剛特別提醒的是有外國的品牌去使用到中資的產品,那這部分在規範上確實有個模糊空間"},{"start":8383.43,"end":8398.316,"text":"那局長你覺得你會來提醒我們這個數位部因為我當然今天數位部不在可是我自己是覺得說第一個大家會很困惑的點就是說我們現在報告這個清單沒有公開"},{"start":8400.523,"end":8427.945,"text":"到底這裡面喔 比方說他可能我們是聽說裡面對華為華為的產品有限制使用但是你通常你是其他的政府部會你要去詢問他可是到底他的清單裡面有什麼我們也不知道有漏沒漏是不是夠完整是不是夠全面是不是兼顧到各個層次其實坦白說大家都並不知道所以很有可能我們的公務員他去詢問說我採購能不能採購他們說可以啊"},{"start":8431.294,"end":8458.484,"text":"就可以了以後一樣啊回去連線到中國的APP很有可能把這些機密資料全部都回傳給老共所以局長我這邊要講是因為我知道說一步不在可是我覺得你們應該很嚴正的態度我光剛才幾分鐘的時間局長你就知道這邊是一個漏洞了嗎我聽懂意思對這邊就是一個明顯的漏洞嘛我們不是用猜的嘛"},{"start":8459.688,"end":8479.153,"text":"這就是一個明顯漏洞,我覺得應該要來盡快的,是不是可以在兩個禮拜內,請跟這個,包括數位部,召開一個相關的會議,請他們來討論,我請國安局跟數位部來討論,我們到底怎麼把類似這樣的漏洞,其實可以補起來,包括是不是要研修相關的法規,還是修相關的規定,"},{"start":8481.46,"end":8508.482,"text":"讓像這樣子的風險我們有一個具體去解決的時程很可能也不是只是剛才說的這樣子的錄音轉錄筆而已不是只是這樣的東西而已是很多層次我們現在是擔心的事情是說這類型的產品或者是它其實可能是尤其是都是用應用服務包括可能是資訊的平台上面應用服務的、是用中資的我們有沒有可能一個更嚴格來去管理跟禁止使用的做法"},{"start":8510.283,"end":8537.849,"text":"這部分我們謝謝委員的提醒我們會後會立刻來針對這個問題做比較細部的一個研議那也會來找數位部來針對這個問題做一些溝通畢竟數位部他是主管業管機關局長這可能在兩個禮拜內我們又要出兩個禮拜出報告兩個禮拜內請國關局來跟我們辦公室來告訴報告你們跟數位部溝通的狀況還有你們接下來要怎麼去"},{"start":8539.149,"end":8539.55,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":8572.161,"end":8581.706,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部副部長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 馬委員好局長好我想今天可能大家全球都在關注的就是美國的大選那現在雖然結果還沒有出來不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果"},{"start":8601.016,"end":8614.109,"text":"因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選他對我們台灣一定有非常大的影響那就這個部分我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析大概他們兩位當選對我們台海的局勢也好或者整體的這些我們的一個區域安全也好有什麼樣的一個不同"},{"start":8624.863,"end":8638.518,"text":"對,因為跟委員報告就這次的選情真的很焦灼那七個關鍵州的那個民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2那所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果那但正如委員所講的針對不同的總統當選人後續可能在"},{"start":8642.222,"end":8642.662,"text":"對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位?"},{"start":8663.25,"end":8683.459,"text":"兩位的一個相關的政策討論事實上我剛也在進來會場之前跟媒體說明那基本上至終有台這個路線應該不會有太大的改變因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對台政策的一個基本的立場是建立在台灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上所以在基本的"},{"start":8684.059,"end":8684.899,"text":"因為顯然就他們兩位可能過去因為川普也曾經擔任過美國總統"},{"start":8701.107,"end":8705.33,"text":"那對於我們來說還有現在賀錦麗雖然是新的不過因為她還是追隨拜登總統的這樣的路線我想差異也不大那對我們來說我們可能因為顯然川普在競選期間其實他也提到像俄烏戰爭他很快就會讓他停止他會用什麼樣的方式策略手段我們不曉得可是一旦俄烏的那個戰爭"},{"start":8728.303,"end":8728.363,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8746.331,"end":8760.581,"text":"我再請教一個就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯那他對於我們這樣周邊的一個區域安全或者我們像這樣子的一個周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響"},{"start":8761.101,"end":8764.862,"text":"這個倒有的簡單好不好簡單就那個因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢會出現更密切的一個連動那關鍵的重點一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話俄國會不會來協助北韓這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點那第二個是在印太地區"},{"start":8783.687,"end":8806.919,"text":"由北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下那台海安全的重要性那我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視那也在書面報告有提到在今年以來已經有9個國家在台海進行那個海軍船艦的巡航已經有15次之多那表示大家對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高"},{"start":8807.779,"end":8820.567,"text":"我想局長我們可以在這裡探討一下有很多其他國家在這邊巡航其實有很多他們只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的他並不是真的在乎也許台灣的處境當然這個台海的局勢會牽動所有的"},{"start":8825.109,"end":8840.133,"text":"後續的影響可是他們在乎的還是他們自己所以我們現在為什麼特別提到北韓去派兵援助俄羅斯的這個部分因為如果增加這樣子的一個兵力或者像一個軍事的行動的時候可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島"},{"start":8846.014,"end":8866.116,"text":"還有就是歐洲的局勢因為這樣子他們只要一牽動那再加上是不是會對日本造成影響那日本有影響的時候會不會分心或者美國會不會分心這個可能才是我們要比較注意的因為對岸你的看法對岸會採取什麼樣的一個方向對於他們"},{"start":8867.977,"end":8895.454,"text":"對 我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國就北韓派兵去俄羅斯你覺得對岸的那個態度會是比較怎麼樣或者他的策略會有什麼樣的調整角色立場對 就北韓參戰的問題來講我們的分析是認為說中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷地強化那中國也會有點擔心"},{"start":8897.535,"end":8919.86,"text":"北韓對於中國的依賴或關係也會受到一些影響那但另一方面北韓的參戰能不能夠讓俄國在戰場上能夠有因為北韓的兵員的投入能夠不會有遭遇更多的一個一個務軍的反撲那中國在這方面又有點期待所以我們剛剛在講說他有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊"},{"start":8920.814,"end":8950.554,"text":"我想其實他倒不一定是尷尬可是他希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢那如果俄羅斯去協助就是北韓去協助俄羅斯的話未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他的相關技術的支援等等類似這樣那因為你在報告上面有說中國希望可以在這中間可以獲取最大的利益所謂這個利益是什麼"},{"start":8951.915,"end":8968.031,"text":"對在這個過程當中俄國跟北韓的合作對中國來講有一部分的戰略利益是可以對於美日同盟造成一個牽制讓美日同盟在這邊受到了那個俄國跟北韓的一個合作的一個戰略的一個牽制但另一方面來講"},{"start":8969.352,"end":8983.841,"text":"中國在擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的因為俄國在跟北韓合作過程當中開始提供北韓很多的經濟援助那也提供北韓去改善他火箭衛星火箭的技術那這部分又不是中國所樂意看到的"},{"start":8984.414,"end":9002.84,"text":"不過在國際還有很多其他的專家學者或者很多的包括期刊或者很多的論述其實甚至認為北韓還有俄羅斯還有中國還有甚至伊朗其實像他們可能是會串聯在一起的這跟我們的看法又不太一樣"},{"start":9003.5,"end":9016.159,"text":"所以其實在我們的評估上面其實還是有很多的可能性不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位因為其實我們常常看的都只有中共的動向因為包括像最近中日韓就重新再重啟一些相關的談判"},{"start":9019.324,"end":9031.974,"text":"那日本跟中國也是一樣他們有很多還是為了自身很多不管經濟也好未來的國家整體的發展也好其實他們都有很多談判的條件跟空間他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時在調整當中當他們變好的時候我們又應該"},{"start":9038.099,"end":9061.758,"text":"我們一直常常一直講所有什麼理念相近的國家啦民主國家啦什麼都會幫我們可是顯然我們看到很多現在的緊張的局勢不管中東的局勢也好不管俄烏的局勢也好顯然都不是像我們說的這樣這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共要看的是我們整體的周邊還有整體的全球的一些相關局勢的牽動"},{"start":9066.542,"end":9069.145,"text":"民主陣營和威權陣營的對立確實在升高只是也有在管理一些風險"},{"start":9081.22,"end":9083.702,"text":"美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來這個部分我們還是請國安單位比較具體的讓大家知道上一次我有跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們"},{"start":9105.083,"end":9105.263,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9116.274,"end":9118.936,"text":"馬雲好副部長好因為剛剛有提到我們美國大選那其實最重要的國安的平息他的延期其實對我們來說國防部是比較具體的作為那想要請教副部長如果像川普當選的話因為川普擔任總統的時候他出售我們台灣的武器裝備"},{"start":9141.296,"end":9158.875,"text":"軍售的部分比拜登總統其實高出三倍那他甚至揚言說我們的應該要交保護費還要GDP應該要佔10%的這樣的一個比例那國防部的看法怎麼樣會怎麼做"},{"start":9161.155,"end":9180.975,"text":"報告委員我想我們對於美國的選舉我們都很重視了但是重要的是我們部長特別強調今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立那我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防的戰力"},{"start":9181.796,"end":9206.594,"text":"現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的因為川普的時期就已經賣給我們這麼多的武器裝備其實到現在很多我們都還沒拿到那拜登總統的時候也是可是他的金額高出這麼多那他當選以後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出我們國防部的角色我想要知道我們國防部會怎麼做可以怎麼做敢怎麼做"},{"start":9208.695,"end":9237.636,"text":"報告委員事實上來講不管誰當選了我想他們對台的軍售到目前為止我們看沒有什麼變化因為軍售它是國與國之間簽訂的合約的關係你也非常清楚所以那要看未來的發展那我們都會因應也就是說這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上變化上來講但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的那我想這一點在目前來講我們是沒有看到任何變化"},{"start":9238.598,"end":9255.013,"text":"我們看到我們的軍售並沒有如期因為在對外的公開的資訊裡面說我們只剩下兩個稍微有延宕那是錯的因為你們把期程把它延了本來五年的你把它延成十年然後都是最後一年才要繳"},{"start":9255.854,"end":9281.939,"text":"才要通通交起給我們那當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕這是錯的這在玩文字遊戲我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起欸他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了或者我們都可以如期的獲得這是錯的我再提醒一次我們把期程延長"},{"start":9284.039,"end":9299.212,"text":"所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統"},{"start":9301.454,"end":9327.689,"text":"就是川普再一次當選那我們國防部可不可以強勢一點做我們整體你要有決心你的決心要讓人民信任因為如果你買的是我們不是需要的或者不是我們應該要如期如止獲得的這樣大家會對我們的整個我們的國防還有我們的軍事其實是更失望這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度"},{"start":9328.651,"end":9337.041,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這當然是國人關心而且這是重大投資所以在未來來講就如委員所說的敢不敢要跟美方多談判我們的需求當然我們的決心決心是我的防衛需求"},{"start":9346.271,"end":9352.415,"text":"絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我一律是我的需求可是我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷報委員這一點我們在未來來講我們也會在立法院監督情況下能夠跟委員報告我們的所有的防衛需求是依照我的台灣的這樣的特殊環境來做建設我們的戰力絕對不會是因為你今天強推給我也要經過委員會的同意這個東西都是經過監督的我想這一點我們絕對有強烈決心"},{"start":9374.711,"end":9379.932,"text":"經過監督這樣會把責任推給不會不會我現在要說的是因為川普如果當選以後現在不曉得也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統可是如果他們有這樣子的要求我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上絕對是已經要審預算了我看還是有很多的問題可能後續大家還要討論我想要請教一下過去因為今天部長也不在為什麼會做這樣的調整機密的"},{"start":9405.579,"end":9414.629,"text":"暨密的案子,過去都會給我們所有的委員有一本相關的一個參考的資料,今年不給的原因是什麼?再問一次,今年有不給嗎?怎麼樣?"},{"start":9422.425,"end":9450.474,"text":"原因是什麼不好意思主席要借一點點時間我也好我是主席局局長我想告訴我原因就好為什麼過去一直以來都有今年突然沒有因為機密的摘要本它本身內涵還是有機密的資訊我們依據國家經濟保護法有關相關的機密的預算書表按照立法院的來文我想請教一下主任我們都在三年五年一會議事做那個承諾我想請教過去為什麼可以"},{"start":9451.909,"end":9452.47,"text":"為什麼不可以看機密?"},{"start":9468.425,"end":9479.374,"text":"我們在監督審查的時候你本來就可以看啊除非我們洩密嘛從過去到現在你最好把洩密查清楚尤其在去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案應該都要把它查清楚趁這個機會很可惜調查權沒有通過我們希望他可以通過因為洩密是誰洩的是立法委員嗎你有查到嗎今天你在"},{"start":9494.246,"end":9522.511,"text":"副部長是那個空軍出身的在那個案今年的機密案裡面其實他有一個就是我們C136H的提升案對不對媒體早就把他爆出來了包括你的金額包括你的內容寫得詳細非常清楚這個部分他怎麼洩出去的為什麼立法委員不可以看我想請教副部長明年的機密案有幾件"},{"start":9524.347,"end":9545.672,"text":"黃委員這個我們可以檢討因為過去竟然有這樣的事為什麼今年改成這樣我覺得我們主席局還要再思考一下今天委員本來就有監督的這種權利嘛那至於說因為不然下次我就考你們喔就是你要把所有的地方記下來讓我們光是去看一次大家可以記到金額包括你的期程包括你的內容因為你所有的"},{"start":9546.192,"end":9558.823,"text":"都是用你的案名其實都是有另外取名字的所以你叫大家去記我們也可以反過來考你們吧如果你們建案的你都記不清楚或者跟過去有什麼關聯為什麼我覺得你們會怎麼做這樣的調整包括我們現在的委員都是新的"},{"start":9565.308,"end":9589.77,"text":"你的案子其實我們所有的機密案他都不是一年完成他都是延續性的那你突然都不給看大家根本不知道你過去有什麼案子啊那你做的好不好花了多少錢未來是不是還應該要繼續這樣子做大家不知道啊你在掩蓋什麼呢你在掩蓋什麼呢你可以給媒體披露出來你不可以給立法委員應該監督的我們應該看你的錢怎麼花"},{"start":9592.572,"end":9618.959,"text":"你叫大家用背的嗎報告委員 這個我下去再跟我們主席再討論他的觀點從哪裡我再跟委員報告不用跟我報告您讓我們知道說為什麼過去可以現在不行先把現在如果你要這樣子說的話先把現在洩漏出去的所有的洩密案包括你們之前為什麼更改很多的案名全部把它查出來你必須要做一個交代以後你才可以做這樣的調整好不好好 謝謝委員什麼時候可以給我們結果一個禮拜"},{"start":9622.048,"end":9622.248,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員"},{"start":9652.711,"end":9655.873,"text":"接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢。謝謝主席,我們先請國防部副部長。請副部長。"},{"start":9681.749,"end":9695.405,"text":"根據中時新聞網他的一篇新聞裡面談到最近大家看到在新竹湖口陸軍第六軍團裡面有一位義務役的新兵竟然持步槍在營區的廁所內開槍"},{"start":9700.367,"end":9700.767,"text":"我請陸馨來回答請說"},{"start":9720.507,"end":9740.487,"text":"委員好我是陸軍常務長陳建一向委員報告我先簡單說明一下任何實戰化的訓練我們對於訓練跟安全的規範都有明確的律定那這只是一起這個個人他沒有遵守到規範的事件那其實我要明確的說這跟星光部隊沒有關聯"},{"start":9742.077,"end":9757.971,"text":"沒有關聯但是那為什麼他會撿到子彈然後帶到廁所裡面再擠發這個過程可不可以說明一下你們現在的調查結果報委員可以的我們現在在整個訓場上因為我要先講他的場景是在訓場內在訓場內我們這個實戰化的設計那我們現在要求不要因為這個"},{"start":9764.597,"end":9765.197,"text":"所以他撿的地方是在哪?"},{"start":9791.371,"end":9813.707,"text":"是在我們虎口訓場裡面在某高地的鋼棚是在訓練場域那這個同仁他有沒有去了解他為什麼要做這件事做了初步了解那我跟委員報告我們對於這個有兩個面向第一個"},{"start":9814.548,"end":9829.036,"text":"我們不能因為實戰化而鬆懈到訓練的紀律反而更應該要求這個在事前都有加強的要求他如果真的發現有前面部隊所遺落的彈藥沒有被清查到他要立刻的向幹部回報"},{"start":9830.097,"end":9831.618,"text":"他不是在廁所發現的,他在訓練過程看到有遺落的子彈"},{"start":9846.044,"end":9846.865,"text":"目前的行政調查和據證明事關的下市"},{"start":9863.857,"end":9864.558,"text":"接下來我要繼續問另外一個問題"},{"start":9887.18,"end":9892.967,"text":"關於下湖東營的統包工程這件事情,我們要請軍備局局長來,歡迎軍備局局長。"},{"start":9902.043,"end":9925.901,"text":"局長,針對這個海軍的下湖東營區興建統包工程案這個總薪額有9億多施工期間是3年那我們辦公室有收到檢舉這個過程工程的多項缺失所以也了解了一下我想要問局長你有沒有了解這個工程的施工期間有多少次的違法跟違規紀錄"},{"start":9928.723,"end":9946.676,"text":"跟委員報告,他的工程履歷期間,原來是有原訓的,他有違反勞動部的就業服務法,非法的僱用,非法的外籍,有被移民署裁罰了120萬,另外本部依照契約也給他罰了110萬,另外違反規定的相關預期有5項14萬,整個總工期我們都給他罰了244萬,都依規定,"},{"start":9953.601,"end":9958.286,"text":"當然你依規定來實施這個相關的懲罰嘛當然問題是這個工程問題就很大啦你一個9億多的一個新建統包工程案然後我數給你聽喔112年5月17號有5個非法移工移民署他罰了50萬"},{"start":9977.346,"end":9987.114,"text":"113年4月移民署又再去營區抓了6個非法移工罰70萬我就問112年才抓過一次為什麼113年就都還繼續有那請問軍備局對於這個9億多的工程計畫在這個包商他處理這個事情的時候你們難道沒有更嚴謹的要求對方嗎為什麼還會持續連續兩年都發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":10004.998,"end":10026.584,"text":"所以說我們依照合約我們除了移民署罰之外我們根據他第二次啊那他如果第三次也是就罰錢了是他總金額9億他還是很賺啊來其他違反規定的契約的四項五項才罰14萬多的包含是上面我寫的這幾項也一樣嘛所以我就小這個金額比較小我不講"},{"start":10027.304,"end":10034.868,"text":"那這個工程是在10月17、18號做驗收請問局長知道驗收的時候缺失有幾項嗎?各位委員報告,詳細的缺失我不清楚大概是幾百項因為缺失大概在我們的經驗值大概都是幾百項的缺失在改進中缺項總共有258項所以其實真的算蠻多的"},{"start":10055.12,"end":10075.787,"text":"你一個9億的案子我們也給你時間做了然後你有258項在驗收的時候有缺失而且土建179、基建42、文建37按照這個契約要在11月11日完成離現在才差幾天而已局長你有掌握目前的改善進度嗎?"},{"start":10076.721,"end":10090.3,"text":"目前改善的進度我們公營中心都會督管我們按照委員指導的沒有改進就是按照每日計法工程款的千分之一我們一定會依法來計二月的執行那局長這個得標的廠商叫什麼名字?"},{"start":10092.998,"end":10117.259,"text":"緣順網路上的負責人是姓黃叫做黃萬傑根據消息來源他的老闆姓曹是一位民進黨前立委曹來旺的弟弟曹來發他的兒子叫做曹俊傑局長您知道他們這層關係嗎我不清楚你不清楚對不對"},{"start":10118.26,"end":10136.387,"text":"那我要告訴你一件事情在我們向你們國防部、軍備局索取了相關資料之後昨天有一個叫做曹俊傑的人說他跟我們辦公室有約要強行的上來我們辦公室說要跟我"},{"start":10137.327,"end":10156.548,"text":"去談這個事情你覺得這樣子是妥善的嗎這個我不清楚這就是這家營造公司裡面的人然後他們知道了我們我都沒有質詢喔所以你們內部有人有問題有去洩密說我問了什麼資料然後讓這家公司知道然後他們派他們來欺騙"},{"start":10158.991,"end":10171.447,"text":"欺騙樓下的櫃台人員說他跟我有約結果呢我想說我根本不認識這個人為什麼他會說他跟我有約我們一查才知道就是這家廠商相關的關係人"},{"start":10173.669,"end":10175.83,"text":"副部長,你怎麼看這件事?這個是政治問題。副部長,你怎麼看這個情況?你怎麼看這樣的情況?"},{"start":10190.679,"end":10199.303,"text":"我覺得此風不可長,我們所有的督導過程當然是公開透明的副部長我跟你說昨天的情況,我們收到了陳情案,我們只跟軍備局有聯繫,這件事情完全沒有跟任何其他人聯繫,然後呢,我們就是今天預定要表定質詢"},{"start":10211.889,"end":10225.479,"text":"昨天這個統報案的陳蘭商到委員研究室的一樓櫃檯報他公司名稱說要找徐巧欣的辦公室謊稱說他是要上來開會的說跟我有約用騙的"},{"start":10228.411,"end":10246.276,"text":"這樣子的一個營造公司是我們軍備局是我們國防部可以信任的嗎難道以後我向單位所知瞭解事情然後你們有內鬼跟營造廠通風報信今天我們所講的他的缺失你們確實有人罰錢了確實就是做不好確實就是應該要檢討我們立法委員質詢這個問題有錯在哪裡嗎"},{"start":10250.217,"end":10274.094,"text":"我們都是要幫助這個工程變得更好提醒軍備局要去改善在11月11號驗收的時候能夠過關也是保護這個相關工程進度的安全守護大家的納稅錢那怎麼會有一個廠商他囂張到9億多的預算拿到之後只因為不曉得從哪一個管道第一,絕對不是我們第二,我們只跟軍備局聯絡過而已我們沒有跟其他單位聯絡過"},{"start":10276.696,"end":10288.402,"text":"他就知道是我們要質詢然後就用這種欺騙欺瞞的方式說要來找我們開會發生這樣的事情就在昨天我今天要質詢他昨天來"},{"start":10289.764,"end":10305.844,"text":"所以我想要請這個副部長你講一下就是對這個事情你們能不能夠去嚴查到底是誰去透露這些資訊給廠商做出這麼我覺得蠻不適格的行為"},{"start":10307.304,"end":10326.119,"text":"我沒有跟他約他跑上來那如果我真的跟他見到面了那我還不到時候被誣賴說哎呀你跟廠商有見過面啊怎麼樣怎麼樣我哪知道就還好我們是有預警就大剌剌的報公司名稱覺得能夠來跟立委喬事情讓我們不要質詢嗎這樣的廠商你們還能夠信任嗎"},{"start":10329.702,"end":10358.283,"text":"所以第一針對廠商這樣子的行徑可不可以承諾去向他們詢問到底為什麼要這樣做第二因為我們只跟軍備局聯絡所以我們非常合理的懷疑是軍備局裡面的人員當然絕不是局長我是說相關可能的人員向廠商透露可能會被立法委員質詢因為我沒有索取相關資料這件事情可不可以查清楚給我們一個交代"},{"start":10360.141,"end":10378.434,"text":"首先我要謝謝委員在這種工程上給我們的監督這對我們來講是非常好的是有利的那第二個您講的這些事實我想我也必須去了解為什麼廠商會直接用這樣的方式去找到您那我想我們如果說按照您所講的對阿如果我被威脅對如果說是您辦公室看我們那我們自己內部也回去去檢討"},{"start":10384.738,"end":10400.833,"text":"我們也防範這種事情發生是不好的而且非常危險啊今天如果是其他國防的是其他可能軍工產業的那我們是不是我們作為委員我們有人身上面的安全的問題所以這件事情我要問副部長能不能夠送政風調查"},{"start":10403.075,"end":10405.777,"text":"謝謝副部長,那就麻煩把他送到政風處,謝謝"},{"start":10428.793,"end":10447.578,"text":"謝謝徐曉勳委員副部長請回然後我們修正稍早的宣告待會林黛華委員質詢完畢後才休息5分鐘你要跟那個調嗎?可是孟凱要講嗎?"},{"start":10461.68,"end":10462.1,"text":"臨戴華委員上台質詢"},{"start":10477.986,"end":10503.513,"text":"本席針對目前資安、國防、僵化我們應該要有靈活的資安戰略那我就這幾個議題跟您做個爬梳第一個觀念的確認第二個本席認為全軍是缺乏資安概念的保防認知地下第三國軍的資安不是在演習"},{"start":10504.753,"end":10519.711,"text":"第4個現行的國軍資安訓練機制是僵化的第5個本期建議好我們觀念確認副部長您認不認同我這兩個這樣的論點第一個資安就是國安"},{"start":10520.592,"end":10546.557,"text":"而國軍的職安就是國防這是第一個第二個通知電軍是捍衛我國的網路主權的專業軍種這兩個觀念您認同嗎若維完全認同好如果你認同你知道他多重要右邊這是我們國發會在我們現在執政黨當中所要發展的一個產業六大核心產業"},{"start":10550.038,"end":10576.148,"text":"這兩個國軍的資安就是國安我們的通知電軍的網路主權的專業軍種他跨6個核心戰略就佔了3個他有資訊及數位他有資安卓越以及國防及戰略他所要產生對國家的利益是什麼在貢獻全球繁榮與安全的數位基地他對我們貢獻的是世界信賴的資安信託"},{"start":10577.869,"end":10595.04,"text":"這個貢獻的是我們的國防自主及行銷太空國家的品牌,占了一半。好,但是國軍的資安訓練及模擬的工具是反應僵化。我們必須半年前準備演練的腳本,每次的模擬還要三、四千萬的公帑。"},{"start":10596.161,"end":10622.351,"text":"作業成本之高昂且無法及時反應好那以今年10月14號環台軍演中國政府以突擊的方式宣布軍演到展演到演習的時間3小時早上5點宣布說要軍演然後呢就8點開始這樣3小時我們通知電軍要如何模擬這樣的情勢呢有沒有動作沒有好那這個"},{"start":10624.83,"end":10651.898,"text":"在經過一個禮拜右邊我就讓你看了我們就這個新聞你們實在是這個國防部就出槌了從10月14號過了一個禮拜10月21號我們部長、將官、情報員的財產各自外流那你們就只是回應新聞稿說我們後續將檢討書者強化公文作業及管制流程這實在是很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":10653.451,"end":10671.304,"text":"這充分表示什麼我國防部部本部隊粗淺的各自保護的嘗試都會忽略代表我全軍的資安及保防的素養之低下官校時期在受訓的時候我就缺乏資安的養成"},{"start":10672.385,"end":10691.995,"text":"校官升等也沒有資安的回訊本席提這個就是我希望你們沒有做好一定要很嚴肅的、快速度的、全面性的來提升加強國軍資安不是只有在演習為什麼會產生我國軍資安這樣子的一個狀態呢我只能這個領導督察的機制我只能用一個亂字"},{"start":10700.64,"end":10717.496,"text":"我們來看右邊這張圖這個我們爬梳出來我們的第四軍種這號稱第四軍種我們矮化為防衛司令部架構我的領導督察機制之亂從指揮官副指揮官參謀長副參謀長中將少將少將上將好我們的督軍是誰督察是誰監軍是誰陣戰戰效"},{"start":10726.324,"end":10733.19,"text":"政戰組內是一個上校級指揮官督導右邊的資通聯隊跟網路聯隊參謀長督導左下角的政戰人行網通副參謀長督導的是資戰副指揮官幹什麼?沒事做,沒職長,沒明確職長然後我們的監軍"},{"start":10753.378,"end":10773.751,"text":"在軍中是非常所以有這個副指揮官就形同閒職了有指揮官一人掌管資通作業及網路作戰這兩個聯隊軍中的文化是非常重視階級跟倫理的以通知電軍組織來看上校的戰戰主念如何能夠節制督導網路聯隊跟資通聯隊的少將聯隊長"},{"start":10778.274,"end":10802.75,"text":"所以整個領導督察的機制就是一個亂子這是現況好那如果我們國軍相對於資安演訓的機制跟美軍來比本席認為有這五項的缺失第一個缺乏對抗演訓如果例如我們在聯勇演習各軍種的軍友模擬對抗我們通知電軍沒有"},{"start":10803.61,"end":10825.666,"text":"第二,現有的資安訓練機制需具備資通訊高度的背景,我們的訓練機制沒有。訓練系統的演習情境設計是矮板的,模擬情境需耗費數月之久,再者,缺乏與時俱進的外部聯動,無法連結瞬息萬變的資訊作戰實務。"},{"start":10828.513,"end":10845.79,"text":"再者,最後,學員的程度不一,欠缺個性化的演訓模式,沒有訓練進度的管制及完訓證照。這是本期認為的缺失。好,我在這邊有幾項要求。三項,國防資安即刻強化由全軍養成。"},{"start":10848.012,"end":10874.355,"text":"檢討現行的通知電演訓機制運用新科技及資訊工具建立完善的健全的數位戰士這個名字也是你們講的數位戰士所以他的養成的訓練制度跟課程請你們數數的完善健全並比照聯勇演習的對抗概念由政府主管分組對抗落實戰訓合一的目標這是第一個本期的要求第二個"},{"start":10875.736,"end":10892.366,"text":"訓練機制與課程的規劃含全軍、官校、回訓、後備當然是包括點招、叫招回來一天回來兩個禮拜一兩個禮拜後備都要具備這樣的一個資通訊的這樣的回訓的機制"},{"start":10893.807,"end":10920.404,"text":"應用靈活並與時俱進結合外界實務．完訓之後包括測驗跟授證．並可納入個人化的培訓管制．接軌認證同步增加募兵．如果我們有授證．這個我們的軍人退休之後．他就是一技之長．有軍方認證的．第三,鑒於對岸採突擊式的演訓．這種的方式只會與日俱增．"},{"start":10921.985,"end":10945.022,"text":"國軍因最短的時間內改進現有的僵化機制由資安保防的演訓做警以上本席的訴求,國防部能不能一周內提出具體的改正方措施呢?謝謝委員的指教,我想這些都是我們應該要蓄心檢討的,我們會在一周之內提供相關的報告給委員參考我希望是全面性的,我說全軍養成是的,謝謝"},{"start":10948.124,"end":10958.648,"text":"謝謝林大華委員、副部長請回。那我再修正一下宣告,待會賴氏堡委員質詢完畢之後,再休息5分鐘。現在請賴氏堡委員上台質詢。謝謝主席一個先進。有請國安委的蔡局長,還有國防部的副部長。請蔡局長、副部長。"},{"start":10977.786,"end":11004.443,"text":"主席賴委員好兩位長官好現在看起來我現在知道現在美國大選大家很關心在這個時刻是川普是198選舉人票哈里斯賀錦麗爾是112張選票看起來川普大概贏了嘛是吧沒有因為他還在開票計票我們可能不適合做議政查這麼多勒?查這麼多?"},{"start":11006.11,"end":11023.334,"text":"對,不適合臆測,這是外交憤激,請委員可以理解。好,現在不管怎麼樣,我先請教那個部長,這個大家都知道嘛,這個蔡局長要講的話還可以講,就是他原來講了,今年初講說台灣的國防要到5%,然後在選舉Campaign的過程裡面,說要到10%GDP,"},{"start":11030.368,"end":11058.485,"text":"10大批,我們現在大概佔2.4%嘛,對不對?是所以5%的概念是什麼?就是現在6千多億的國防預算就變成1兆2千多億如果是10%那就是2兆6千億左右我們的一年總預算就3兆,所以佔我們的總預算超過8成喔這樣的一個概念國防部有這樣想法嗎?會把它提這麼高嗎?"},{"start":11060.987,"end":11090.06,"text":"報告委員我想國防預算也要看我們國家的財政的狀況那也是全體大家的共識了那我們希望這個當然我們的國防預算是希望逐年成長尤其在現在的軍事環境的威脅情況下我想至於說如何去成長我認為還是看財政狀況未來的共識大家如何來去採取一個國防的共識現在2.5左右要提高到5有沒有可能"},{"start":11091.769,"end":11113.847,"text":"短時間我看大聲講不可能嘛因為其他都不要做了啊對不對那這個話應該讓川普知道啊他現在快當總統了要讓他知道啊結果我們現在都在這裡講然後你川普講的美國人都聽到啊你在這裡講美國人沒聽到"},{"start":11115.894,"end":11133.243,"text":"來 蔡局長講一下有沒有辦法讓我們說短時間不可能到5%這個聲音你不能讓美國知道這尊重業管單位國防部的一些評估跟意見你國安局長也是要國防部的預算是國防部在規劃的那我請問你針對美國大選之後你們國安有沒有開過國安會就是說這個我們如何因應有沒有幾套劇本因應"},{"start":11141.923,"end":11143.563,"text":"是大概什麼時候會召開?召開你一定會到吧?"},{"start":11162.685,"end":11189.539,"text":"對原則上都會到對那現在來講的話這個我們的外交部的次長他裡面的statement裡面講一個concern又講一個worry他就是關心川普會不會當選然後又擔心川普會當選這看起來川普當選世界任何的我看媒體的報導對台灣都是有很大的壓力這句話你同意不同意"},{"start":11190.066,"end":11190.687,"text":"你會覺得他當選是個壓力嗎?"},{"start":11199.772,"end":11227.543,"text":"整體來講因為川普政府也曾經執政過那在川普政府執政期間那台灣方面不管跟國會跟行政部門溝通合作都非常的順暢他最大的一個問題外界認為他最大問題就是美國優先嘛喔原來是MMAG讓美國再次偉大就是他是一個勝利人就是我以美國為主所以國際上的周邊組織盡量能夠"},{"start":11229.224,"end":11241.282,"text":"不要管就不要管,或者我要管就要付錢之類的所以有學者就提到了川普上來之後大概我們要加入CPTPP更困難的,這個你怎麼看?"},{"start":11242.426,"end":11268.195,"text":"對各方面的評估意見我們都有在收集跟參考那也跟委員說明一下我剛有提到在川普政府第一任期之內臺美的合作是非常的發展的非常的順暢那包括也是在川普的任內那四年那美國對台軍售制度化然後我沒有記錯在2020年川普政府時期派美國的軍艦穿越台海是達到13次是歷史新高這都有都有"},{"start":11268.635,"end":11289.976,"text":"不要忘了川普時代比拜登時代川普時代台灣買的像美國買的武器就所謂的軍購是拜登時代的三倍喔三倍之多阿所以大家都認為說川普當選之後阿他說增加台灣的保護費啦Pay for defense這個講保護費對吧"},{"start":11291.164,"end":11314.219,"text":"這是尊重委員的用語英文叫pay for defense 大家知道保護衛嗎保護衛這個意思就只有三條途徑第一個直接付錢像美國、日本、韓國因為有美軍住在該地所以直接付錢第二個那就是軍購我認為軍購一定會再增加"},{"start":11315.896,"end":11328.203,"text":"第三個那就是台積電2.0、3.0多一點的台積電去那裡因為他說了台灣偷了他們的晶片所以呢這個讓台灣的晶片廠多一點去大陸設廠這個看法怎麼樣"},{"start":11330.111,"end":11330.691,"text":"你認為川普不會要我們提高國防軍備嗎?"},{"start":11351.082,"end":11369.128,"text":"這部分可能後續還要再觀察,因為選舉期間的一些用語,確實不一定能夠落實到後續的政策的執行。可是他講MAGA,要讓美國再次偉大,他一定是更加的,或者我們這樣問好了,他上來以後會不會重新重啟了國際間的保護主義,會不會?"},{"start":11372.177,"end":11390.879,"text":"這方面討論很多啦,那我們會持續的來搜研我們有沒有因應?我們有沒有因應請問?我們有在搜研是包括兩個陣營不管誰當選總統,他未來不管是在國安或經貿的人事佈局,那這部分也都會影響後續的政策"},{"start":11392.962,"end":11413.101,"text":"幾套的劇本?沒有幾套啦,就整個人事的布局,政策的走向,那以及後續他們可能在印太政策的主要施政重點在哪裡,那以及對台灣會產生哪些的影響,這大概都是我們讀的重點。以印太來講的話,台灣現在都沒辦法加入耶,IPF,台灣都沒辦法加入,如果川普來的話更不容易。最後一個我請教博副部長。"},{"start":11417.084,"end":11441.613,"text":"這個我們軍購大家預估啦一定會買的更多的美國武器因為他過去已經有這個紀錄了嘛他的任內比川普比那個拜登多了三倍我們當然對台灣的防衛有幫助我們的還領可是我們人員不夠啊我們的報告裡面都寫啊我們的這個預算裡面都提到啊就是就是"},{"start":11443.004,"end":11446.251,"text":"致願意啊!創新!這歷年來新低啊!"},{"start":11448.854,"end":11477.319,"text":"那我昨天問了這個顧部長他說你們正在研議要給志願役加薪有沒有什麼意思有是幅度怎麼樣啊現在還在研議當中因為這個牽扯到我剛才是特別強調就是說如何留住人才那合理的給留住我們志願役的這樣子的人才尤其在專長比例上來講我們在討論什麼專長是我們是非常需要的這樣加薪的比例"},{"start":11477.776,"end":11495.434,"text":"我在想你們要打出一個亮的口號現在志願役我們的少將旅長都還不如美國的一個中士薪水來講真的我們的志願役的薪水一定要大幅提升起薪有沒有可能像現在台積電招年薪百萬起跳"},{"start":11499.958,"end":11514.112,"text":"我們最少你這個這一任賴清德總統協議以前2027年年薪破百萬護國生三我們要護國生兵啊破百萬有可能嗎有可能嗎來部長、副部長你講一下"},{"start":11515.799,"end":11540.824,"text":"報告委員我想調心這件事情我還是必須要強調這還要看我們國家財政狀況來決定那另外一個就是說還有一個全面的共識那我想調心對我們軍人來講本來就是一種鼓舞我想這個是一個朝這樣子的方向來發展現在捷運的起薪多少錢嗎你告訴我捷運起薪依照各種不同的階級的標準都不一樣四萬塊左右啊"},{"start":11541.701,"end":11567.5,"text":"差不多啊,4乘以13.5,50幾萬嘛,對不對?那我說很快的調50%,目標2027破百萬,護國生三病護國生病,這樣子的話跟採集店爭取人才啊,怎麼樣?謝謝委員的關注,謝謝委員的關注,我想委員的關注對我們都是一種鼓舞,謝謝委員應該說樂見其成啊,我做球給你都不敢接"},{"start":11569.449,"end":11596.251,"text":"對嗎?蔡局長對嗎?我這個建議不是很好你同意嗎?你的點頭同意?蔡局長說什麼?沒有,我尊重委員的意見尊重委員的意見要同意啦這個東西這是2027嘛你還找你現在同意做不到也沒有人會給你救責啊對不對但是最少要大幅提升啦不然的話買了這麼多武器沒有好的人來人都不夠啊沒人要來薪水太低嘛就是這樣講啊又有風險有可能"},{"start":11598.072,"end":11598.813,"text":"臺灣有沒有可能引進傭兵制度?"},{"start":11622.578,"end":11629.127,"text":"我們這個都不評論這個東西我問你啊你這個政策有沒有規劃這個我們目前都沒有這樣子規劃是謝謝謝謝賴司保委員局長跟副部長請回那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":12049.554,"end":12062.483,"text":"他開始開會王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在葉元之來了嗎要嗎葉元之 葉元之"},{"start":12078.829,"end":12101.057,"text":"葉元之委員 不在羅志強 羅志強 羅志強委員不在鄭正前 鄭正前 鄭正前委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在"},{"start":12110.202,"end":12127.576,"text":"已經登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員、陳永康委員、劉建國委員、羅志強委員、王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":12135.202,"end":12147.25,"text":"委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者疫情相關單位與書面兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期鎖定。"},{"start":12160.237,"end":12172.081,"text":"現在請在場的委員我們大家先等一下請在場的委員楊瓊英委員然後我們上台質詢時間3分鐘謝謝主席各單位大家辛苦了請局長請局長"},{"start":12189.383,"end":12212.102,"text":"好,謝謝主席,姚委員好局長好,我想請問,南北韓緊張情勢升溫那10月15號呢,突然來一個南北韓的經義縣東海縣,那連結鐵路、公路,引發了南韓實際的一個反制涉及那據聞呢,這個韓聯社也報導,北韓已經有修改憲法"},{"start":12212.662,"end":12232.211,"text":"正式將南韓列為敵對的國家所以在這樣的情況之下請教局長那麼南北韓如果真打起來周邊的國家勢必大家都會有牽扯在這樣的情況之下我們怎麼樣去應對近期緊張的這個局勢怎麼樣保障我的安全呢"},{"start":12232.857,"end":12260.884,"text":"對,跟委員做個報告跟說明那現階段我們在評估北韓對外的挑釁認為是一個威懾的動作還不是要進入正式起戰的階段還沒有那他會在這階段對,恐嚇、恫嚇那會在這階段做這樣的操作主要是因為美國跟日本還有韓國這幾個月的那個安保軍事的合作變得越來越緊密那也進行了非常多的軍事演習那讓北韓有感受到壓力他必須要有一些回擊"},{"start":12263.907,"end":12271.695,"text":"北韓也希望在選前有這些挑釁的動作來累積到他選後跟美國新政府不管是哪一位上台相關溝通跟協商的籌碼"},{"start":12276.561,"end":12292.53,"text":"希望能夠透過這些動作讓美國新總統可以正視到北韓的問題那後續也可以在讓北韓在磋商過程當中可以讓美方不要再對北韓進行經濟的制裁那也能夠來承認北韓已經擁有核武跟導彈的一個地位的一個身份"},{"start":12293.29,"end":12314.568,"text":"本席聽到局長你的說法也就是我方也嚴正以待清楚目前的樣態到底是如何當然你剛才所說的是我方的認知但是我們還是要謹慎以對因為我們國家最重要的就是一定要安全知己知彼百戰百勝我們會持續跟周邊友好國家針對朝鮮半島的動態"},{"start":12322.155,"end":12333.503,"text":"對,區域的情勢我們會交換情質來掌控。對,局長公好,請國人放心。那接下來我要請教,也就是AI隨著Google等這些跨國企業,那麼同時呢,在我們本席要請教,針對於AI技術,"},{"start":12337.006,"end":12359.408,"text":"這個武器化衍生的新興挑戰我相信國安局你們也強力的跟世界來接軌那同時在AI資源情報作業的能力我們要怎麼樣有效的去防範淺蠢的這些國安的一個資料外洩也好的風險或者是我們的國安的這個威脅呢"},{"start":12360.728,"end":12364.111,"text":"對,這確實是一個很重要的問題,因為AI技術的運用,它不管在發動資安的攻擊,它會變得越來越快速,甚至是無差別的來攻擊。而且也可以透過AI來散發這種爭議的訊息,來擾亂我們的民心。所以對於這種AI技術運用在傳統的戰場上,或是資安,或是爭議訊息的戰場上,我們都有密切的在關注。"},{"start":12383.951,"end":12387.512,"text":"我們本局又成立相關AI研發的一個團隊來針對AI的應用用AI來因應AI的威脅那是我們目前在努力的方向因為我們透過AI還是可以去找出網路上你說你們成立這樣子的一個團隊是什麼時候成立的"},{"start":12403.616,"end":12420.819,"text":"去年就成立了而且成立完之後我們成立的同時我們還有通過我們內部的發展AI的相關的作業規範也就是AI當然會帶來很多的便利性但它可能也有一些風險要小心怎麼竊密所以北界主體建議一定要滾動式去討論有的新的技術怎麼樣圍堵有的新的技術我們怎麼樣去接軌這是非常重要的謝謝委員來提醒我們"},{"start":12434.079,"end":12435.883,"text":"謝謝楊瓊怡委員．局長請回本日會議到此結束上會"}]}},{"id":"156567","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d7ca54b6e3adcaeabec98f8113ce54f746385e2ac2d036a8fa5ef969bfb1957e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"14:39:38 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1188,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（14時39分）謝謝主席，經濟部長有請。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你常常心直口快，但我還是要提醒你，川普現在基本上已經聽牌了，很可能要領先。不過剛剛兩位委員的答詢裡面，前面一講就說川普要課60%針對中國大陸的關稅，你們說這對臺灣來講是一個大利多，是國發會主委講的；然後剛剛回答陳冠廷委員的答詢裡面，你又講政策不會有大規模的改變，那到底是會改變還是不會改變？"],["郭部長智輝：會改變跟不會改變，我們都有做scenario。"],["牛委員煦庭：我是建議你未來在答詢的時候要謹言慎行。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：不要到最後又變草率發言，好不好？但這不是今天要問的重點，今天要討論的題目叫做「青年低薪」這個問題，這是個老問題，我就從部長過去的經驗出發來跟你探討一下。部長過去在崇越服務、帶領崇越集團的時候，有沒有響應當初的政府，每次我們要談論青年低薪的問題，有時候是一些減稅的利多，有一些是溫情的喊話，有一些是政策的指示，不管怎麼樣，過去您擔任董事長期間有沒有響應過政府這樣的措施，然後幫你集團裡面的年輕人加薪？"],["郭部長智輝：我幫年輕人加薪是一定有，但是不一定響應政府的措施。"],["牛委員煦庭：不一定響應政府的措施。你當部長接下來的任內，你有多大的把握，我們的國家能夠有效導引各樣企業去帶動年輕人薪水的成長？"],["郭部長智輝：我們基本上是透過兩個方向，第一個就是幫它轉型，走向高值化的產業；第二個是透過現有的政府機制，一個就是數位化，一個是低碳化來輔導他們，然後……"],["牛委員煦庭：你講到碳這件事情，本席其實就非常有感，因為我稍微查了一下崇越集團，過去你們配合政府最多的地方，其實是全面配合相關的減碳措施，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一點當然值得肯定，但當初你配合政府的政策去做了這樣子的努力時，是不是給企業帶來額外的成本？"],["郭部長智輝：我想本來企業轉型就需要一些成本。"],["牛委員煦庭：就會擔負，對不對？那壞帳會不會增加？"],["郭部長智輝：我以前的公司還能夠承擔這樣的成本。我想委員大概關心的是，有沒有企業的政策能夠得到所有員工大家的支持……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，本席要跟你講的狀況是，你現在面對未來，我們之前也在這個地方討論過，比如碳費、碳稅等等的一些機制，其實都在在會增加企業的成本。本席很擔心的是，企業要面對這麼多新的挑戰的同時，其實光是應付這些新的挑戰它就窮於應付、疲於奔命，當然就沒有所謂的餘裕可以再提升勞工的勞動待遇，政府很多政策的立意都很好，但是當企業要配合的時候它就擔負成本。","所以本席在這個地方要表達我們的立場，我希望未來的經濟部跟整個行政院的團隊可以導引的其實是，政府有些政策可以幫企業節省成本，過去我們在總質詢對答的時候，你有講綠電未來增加的高額成本要由企業負擔，我是不知道為什麼台電董事長後來又講可能要調漲民生電價，看來又是草率發言。但本席那時候要提這個概念其實是這樣子，政府的能源政策如果可以有效降低企業成本做合理的轉型、做合理的修正和調整，你應該是協助企業降低這一部分的成本！當你協助它降低這部分成本的時候，把省下來的錢讓它去照顧勞工，這樣是不是企業也不輸、勞工可以贏？可是目前政府的方向，顯然經過了幾次的總質詢之後，看起來還是沒有一個像樣的總檢討。我是希望可以很快看到有一定的成果，對於企業相關能源的成本，政府可以協助、支持，可以把成本降下來。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：相關來講你就課予企業更多的責任，過去我們談企業加薪，常常不是曉之以理就是動之以情，喝咖啡喝半天也不一定有人響應。如果沒有辦法透過政策的導引，讓企業也在利潤分配上可以更加合理的話，那恐怕經濟部也好，國發會也好，到最後也是只有喝咖啡的功能，本席不希望這樣。部長，對這件事你有沒有什麼具體的作法？"],["郭部長智輝：我們對委員的這個指導非常重視，我們也朝這個方向正在進行，所以我們在未來形成新的政策的話，一定就是獎勵企業，提升企業的競爭力，讓企業高值化、低成本化，然後把得到的這些利益回饋給員工。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你今天的這個政策，就當成你的軍令狀，這是你的目標，我們當然還有一些時間，時間會給大家證明。"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望確實能夠如部長所說的，重點還是要能夠帶動年輕人的加薪……"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：解決低薪問題，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。部長請回座。","陳菁徽、陳菁徽，陳菁徽委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","廖偉翔、廖偉翔，廖偉翔委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強，羅智強委員不在。","劉建國、劉建國，劉建國委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","馬文君、馬文君，馬文君委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員羅智強、牛煦庭、王鴻薇所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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feeling就是你直覺還是根據哪些報告有沒有"},{"start":40.216,"end":69.148,"text":"我跟委員報告根據你我時間很短你趕快簡短講根據什麼他對中國企業徵收60%的稅對台灣要增加10%的稅對我們相差50%的稅那我們最近企業被中國內捲殺到那他的徵稅有助於我們搬轉第二個部分國部長來國部長好那你國部長電子業你是電子業出身的電子業的平均毛利多少"},{"start":70.489,"end":79.201,"text":"要看哪一個業啊?你的行業!電子業這麼長!你的行業!你的行業!YOU!YOU!YOU!你的!你的!你以前的!從業!從業!從業!從業!半導體!我從業是8%嘛!"},{"start":86.613,"end":87.134,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":104.674,"end":116.399,"text":"你同意嗎?他說對川普當選現在已經差不多當選了,是對台商是大利多嗎?來來來你同意不同意我問你,你同意不同意?你同意不同意?我完全同意,這是商業規則啊"},{"start":120.32,"end":123.162,"text":"這個我是不懂這個邏輯怎麼了你賺8%給人家課10%你很高興我請問你委員我賺8%跟課10%完全沒有關係那個是在我進到美國的市場他課10%是美國的客戶買他會加10%來跟我買但是我賺的8%是沒有少我們多半是FOB來這個部長經濟部長"},{"start":149.206,"end":178.412,"text":"這是你,你看我看過在立法院這麼多年了企業界出身的部長我發現Ranking是非常後面的你大概只有殷總裁一你比那個第一任的企業界出來的林新立啊差有過多他的數字啊問什麼都清晨出處你問什麼你都不清楚比如我來問你一個啊台電有沒有股票上市?蛤?台電有沒有股票上市?沒有啊蛤?沒有啊以前有沒有?"},{"start":179.465,"end":180.166,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":191.121,"end":217.946,"text":"很少 多少 要備起來 拜託我備這個對我的工作沒幫助啊 委員我的腦袋也有限啊 對不對我管山管海 管那麼多你管油 燉 糖水 你基本資料你要備得很清楚啊你要記得很清楚來 我再問你喔 因為我現在就問你說你現在又要跟我們一樣一千億整支你現在已經五千八百億了 對不對"},{"start":219.566,"end":233.685,"text":"臺電資本額五千八百億歐再加一千就六千八百億歐民股的股權又再稀釋的原來四點多變三點多現在可能第三喔部長啊怎麼辦民股怎麼辦怎麼辦"},{"start":237.529,"end":252.374,"text":"那個稀釋民股啊也要這個就如果我不是增資就不是稀釋民股啊如果你願意補貼你要補貼他就不會稀釋民股啊你沒有補貼啊你這個政府願意補貼這種所謂的這個支出他當然就不會稀釋民股啊你知不知道這個非利"},{"start":262.777,"end":265.199,"text":"你講的菲律賓已經在計畫要蓋大的一個光電廠知不知道菲律賓他會蓋很多大的光電廠你都不知道啊你講光電光電你講剛才委員就吐泥就已經在2.6%在一點點他要蓋一個大電廠"},{"start":281.61,"end":283.011,"text":"二、我們海底電線要1500億蓋個電廠1000粒這個叫隨便長講啊部長還是隨便講講部長你的評價很低啦這個部長啊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1110,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（14時30分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請國發會的劉主委及經濟部的郭部長，兩位長官請。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長。"],["賴委員士葆：先請教劉主委，如你所願，川普應該會贏得美國大選，你說對臺商是大利多，你這個講利多到底是有沒有根據啊？根據什麼？根據你的gut feeling，就是你的直覺，還是根據哪些報告，有沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：因為我的時間很短，你可不可以簡短講根據什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他對中國企業徵收60%的稅……"],["賴委員士葆：對臺灣是增加10%的稅啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們相差50%的稅，我們最近企業被中國內捲殺到，他的徵稅有助於我們翻轉。"],["賴委員士葆：你隨便說說啦。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：好，請教部長，郭部長，你是電子業出身的，電子業的平均毛利多少？"],["郭部長智輝：要看哪一個業啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你的行業。"],["郭部長智輝：電子業這麼長，甚至中下游……"],["賴委員士葆：你的行業，你以前的崇越。"],["郭部長智輝：半導體，我崇越是8%嘛。"],["賴委員士葆：8%，現在我給你課10%，這樣你受得了嗎？我問你，受得了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他又不是只有對我課10%，對別人也是10%啊！所以同業競爭沒有問題啊。"],["賴委員士葆：你賺8%，你給他課了10%，你心裡沒有個準，所以現在劉主委講的話你同意嗎？他說川普當選，現在已經差不多當選了，對臺商是大利多嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，那10%是美國人的公司在付的。"],["賴委員士葆：來啊，你同不同意我問你，你同不同意？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我完全同意。"],["賴委員士葆：完全同意，多一個川粉啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是商業規則啊。"],["賴委員士葆：我是不懂這個邏輯是什麼啦，你賺8%，給人家課10%，你還很高興，被課得很高興！我請問你……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我賺8%跟課10%完全沒有關係喔，那個是我進到美國的市場，他課10%是美國的客戶買，他會加10%來跟我買啊，但是我賺了8%是沒有少啊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們多半是FOB。"],["賴委員士葆：部長啊，經濟部長，我在立法院這麼多年了，企業界出身的部長，我把你rating是非常後面的，你大概只有贏宗才怡，你比那個第一任企業界出來的林信義，差得有夠多！他的數字啊，問什麼都清清楚楚，但問你什麼，你都不清楚！比如我問你一個，台電有沒有股票上市？"],["郭部長智輝：蛤？"],["賴委員士葆：台電有沒有股票上市？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啊。"],["賴委員士葆：蛤？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：以前有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：以前我不清楚啊。"],["賴委員士葆：喔，不清楚，你都不準備，以前有啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我為什麼要清楚以前的事呢？"],["賴委員士葆：當然要，台電！好，那我再請問你，台電有沒有民股？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["賴委員士葆：多少？"],["郭部長智輝：很少。"],["賴委員士葆：多少？要背起來啊，拜託！"],["郭部長智輝：我背這個對我的工作也沒幫助啊，委員。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫沒幫助？你不能這樣……"],["郭部長智輝：我的腦袋也有限啊，對不對？"],["賴委員士葆：這個因為你管油……"],["郭部長智輝：我要管山、管海，管那麼多！"],["賴委員士葆：你管油電糖水，基本資料你要背得很清楚啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對啊，但這個不是基本資料。"],["賴委員士葆：你要記得很清楚！我再問你，你現在又要跟我們要1,000億增資，台電資本額現在已經5,800億了，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊。"],["賴委員士葆：5,800億喔，再加1,000億就6,800億喔。"],["郭部長智輝：是啊。"],["賴委員士葆：民股的股權又再稀釋了，原來四點多變三點多，現在可能低於三喔，部長，怎麼辦，民股怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果我不是增資就不是稀釋民股啊，如果你願意補貼，你補貼它就不會稀釋民股啊。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有補貼啊。"],["郭部長智輝：如果政府願意補貼這種額外的支出，它當然就不會稀釋民股啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你知不知道你講的菲律賓已經在計畫要一個蓋大的光電廠，知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：菲律賓會蓋很多大的光電廠啦。"],["賴委員士葆：你都不知道啊，關於光電，剛才委員就吐你，就已經2.6%再一點點，它要蓋這個大電廠，我們海底電線要1,500億，蓋個電廠要1,000億，這個叫隨便講講啊，部長，還是隨便講講，部長，你的評價很低啦，這個部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴士葆委員，部長請回座。","下一位質詢請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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委員鏡清：我們現在就是，第一個，二、三、四、五的財富都有增加，現在我們想要針對第一等分，財富並沒有增加的這個等分，我們希望投入一些社會福利去協助這個族群。"],["許委員宇甄：對，但投入社會福利要投入多少才能夠解決？而且我們今天講的是青年低薪的問題，根據……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這份是財富的。"],["許委員宇甄：民進黨執政這八年來將調升基本工資視為改善低薪的一個重要政策，勞動部也在112年5月20號表示，勞動部要落實蔡總統支持青年就業的這個政策，也會保障初入職場的青年勞工的薪資權益。但是根據勞動部的統計，每四名大學畢業生中，就有一個人是初入職場的起薪只有領基本工資，表示這個政策並沒有辦法改善青年的薪資結構，所以針對這個部分，經濟發展委員會第一次顧問會議就指出，只調整最低工資沒有辦法解決臺灣普遍薪資的問題。請問劉主委，你認為最低薪資應該要多少？我們勞動部的何部長說3萬1,000元，那您覺得合理的起薪是多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他的3萬1,000元是用OECD的標準，但是現在其實我們有做了幾件事情，第一個是政府的採購，我們現在要求要高於這個數字；第二個事情就是……"],["許委員宇甄：就是您報告中提的，是嗎？你的報告裡面寫的，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，第二個部分，我們現在一樣找金管會，第一個，我們會公告產業薪資比較；第二個，在新的IPO要申請上市的公司，我們要求達最低工資的1.3倍，遠超過目前這個3萬1,000元的數字。另外，我們也會把這些薪資都列入公司評鑑裡面，我們希望給予比較大的壓力。"],["許委員宇甄：你剛剛講的是上市公司，但尤其是以中小企業來說的話，如果它的業績就不好，你要叫它加薪它都沒辦法做到……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，針對中小企業我們也有一百一十多億的投入。"],["許委員宇甄：所以針對這個政策還是要具體的落實，不要只是空談，能夠真正的幫助年輕人，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，我們就是投入一百一十多億，我們這次是以面為主，過去比較以點為主。"],["許委員宇甄：希望下次再請教國發會劉主委的時候能夠有一個好的、具體的政策，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許委員，主委請回座。","報告委員會，現在休息，下午2點30分繼續開會。","休息（12時5分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","黃國昌、黃國昌、黃國昌，黃國昌不在。","下一位質詢委員請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席賴委員好"},{"start":14.617,"end":38.25,"text":"兩位長官好,現在看起來我現在知道現在美國大選大家很關心在這個時刻是川普是198選舉人票,哈里斯、賀錦麗是112張選票,看起來川普大概贏了嘛是吧?沒有,因為他還在開票、計票,我們可能不適合做議政。差這麼多勒?差這麼多?"},{"start":41.161,"end":58.39,"text":"對,不適合臆測,這是外交憤激,請委員可以理解。好,現在不管怎麼樣,我先請教那個部長,這個大家都知道嘛,這個蔡局長要講話還可以講,就是他原來講了,今年初講說台灣的國防要到5%﹖然後在選舉的過程裡面,說要到10% GDP﹖"},{"start":66.44,"end":93.597,"text":"我們現在大概佔2.4%嘛對不對?是所以5%的概念是什麼?就是現在6千多億的國防預算就變成1兆2千多億如果是10%那就是2兆6千億左右我們的一年總預算就3兆所以佔我們的總預算超過八成喔這樣的一個概念國防部有這樣想法嗎?會把它提這麼高嗎?"},{"start":96.198,"end":125.112,"text":"發言委員我想國防預算也要看我們國家的財政狀況那也是全體大家的共識了那我們希望這個當然我們的國防預算是希望逐年成長尤其在現在的軍事環境的威脅情況下我想至於說如何去成長我認為還是看財政狀況未來的共識大家如何來去採取一個國防的共識因為我不懷疑怎麼成長他是要佔GDP現在2.5左右要提高到5有沒有可能"},{"start":126.84,"end":148.269,"text":"短時間之餘,我看...不可能嘛!你要大聲講不可能嘛!因為其他都不要做了啊!對不對?那這個話,應該讓川普知道啊!他現在快當總統了啊!要讓他知道啊!結果我們現在都在這裡講!然後,你川普講的美國人都聽到啊!你在這裡講美國人沒聽到!"},{"start":150.945,"end":168.294,"text":"來 蔡局長 你要不要講一下有沒有辦法讓我們說短時間不可能到5%這個聲音你不能讓美國知道這尊重業管單位國防部的一些評估跟意見你國安局長也是要國防部的預算是國防部在規劃的好 那我請問你喔針對美國大選之後你們國安有沒有開過國安會就是說這個我們如何因應有沒有幾套劇本因應"},{"start":177.414,"end":199.776,"text":"對,因為剛才跟其他委員有說明啦因為美國的選舉是一個動態蠻長的過程那過程當中我們對於相關的發展都有一些討論那正式的國安會還沒有召開因為剛剛總統府已經有對這一部分做說明了是大概什麼時候會召開這要由府方來宣布召開你一定會到吧對原則上都會到嘛對那現在來講的話"},{"start":202.202,"end":206.985,"text":"國際社會大家都在關注美國選情的狀況那台灣方面我們也是有高度的關注"},{"start":231.738,"end":233.023,"text":"你會覺得他當選是個壓力嗎?"},{"start":234.844,"end":262.594,"text":"整體來講因為川普政府也曾經執政過那在川普政府執政期間那台灣方面不管跟國會跟行政部門溝通合作都非常的順暢他最大的一個問題外界認為他最大問題就是美國優先嘛原來是MMAG讓美國再次偉大就是他是個勝利人就是我以美國為主所以國際上的周邊組織盡量能夠"},{"start":264.395,"end":268.679,"text":"川普上來之後大概我們要加入CPTPP更困難的,這個你怎麼看?"},{"start":277.477,"end":303.243,"text":"對各方面的評估意見我們都有在收集跟參考那也跟委員說明一下我剛有提到在川普政府第一任期之內臺美的合作是非常的發展的非常的順暢那包括也是在川普的任內那四年那美國對台軍售制度化然後我沒有記錯在2020年川普政府時期派美國的軍艦穿越台海是達到13次是歷史新高這都有都有"},{"start":303.703,"end":324.586,"text":"不要忘了川普時代比拜登時代川普時代台灣買的像美國買的武器就所謂的軍購是拜登時代的三倍三倍之多所以大家就認為說川普當選之後他說增加台灣的保護費Pay for defense這個講保護費對吧"},{"start":326.415,"end":344.602,"text":"這尊重委員的用語英文是Pay for defense保護衛這意思只有三條途徑第一個直接付錢像美國、日本、韓國因為有美軍住在該地所以直接付錢第二個那就是軍購"},{"start":347.816,"end":363.269,"text":"我認為軍購一定會再增加第三個那就是台積電2.0、3.0多一點的台積電去那裡因為他說了台灣偷了他們的晶片所以呢這個讓台灣的晶片廠多一點去大陸設廠這個看法怎麼樣"},{"start":365.179,"end":365.759,"text":"你認為川普不會要我們提高國防軍備嗎?"},{"start":386.134,"end":404.499,"text":"這部分可能後續還要再觀察,因為選舉期間的一些用語確實不一定能夠落實到後續的政策的執行。可是他講MAGA,要讓美國再次偉大,他一定是更加的,或者我們這樣問好了,他上來以後會不會重新重啟了國際間的保護主義,會不會?"},{"start":407.229,"end":426.935,"text":"這方面討論很多,我們會持續地來搜研。我們有沒有因應?我們有沒有因應請問?我們有在搜研是包括兩個陣營不管誰當選總統,他未來不管是在國安或經貿的人事佈局,那這部分也都會影響後續的政策。我們有其他劇本來因應。"},{"start":427.555,"end":450.694,"text":"有,各方面的有在討論。幾套的劇本?沒有幾套啦,就整個人事的布局,政策的走向,那以及後續他們可能在印太政策的主要施政重點在哪裡,那以及對台灣會產生哪些的影響,這大概都是我們讀的重點。以印太來講的話,台灣現在都沒辦法加入耶,IPF,台灣都沒辦法加入,如果川普來的話更不容易。好,最後一個我請教那個博次長,要博副部長了。是。"},{"start":452.155,"end":476.665,"text":"這個我們軍購大家預估啦一定會買的更多的美國武器因為他過去已經有這個記錄了嘛他的任內比川普比那個拜登多了三倍我們當然對台灣的防衛有幫助我們的還領可是我們人員不夠啊我們的報告裡面都寫啊我們的這個預算裡面都有提到啊就是就是"},{"start":478.075,"end":481.262,"text":"自願意啊!創新!這歷年來新低啊!"},{"start":484.142,"end":512.394,"text":"我昨天問了顧部長,他說你們正在研議要給自願役加薪有沒有什麼意思?有,是。幅度怎麼樣?現在在研議當中,因為這個牽扯到,我剛才是特別強調,就是說如何留住人才,那合理的給留住我們自願役的這樣子的人才,尤其在專長比例上來講,我們在討論,什麼專長是我們是非常需要的這樣加薪的比例?"},{"start":512.827,"end":530.485,"text":"我在想你們要打出一個亮的口號現在志願役我們的少將旅長都還不如美國的一個中士薪水來講真的我們的志願役的薪水一定要大幅提升起薪有沒有可能像現在台積電招年薪百萬起跳"},{"start":535.009,"end":547.199,"text":"我們最少你這個這一任賴清德總統協任以前2027年年薪破百萬護國神山我們要護國神兵啊破百萬有可能嗎有可能嗎來部長、副部長你講一下"},{"start":550.851,"end":575.214,"text":"報告委員我想調薪這件事情我還是必須要強調這還要看我們國家財政狀況來決定那另外一個就是說還有一個全面的共識那我想調薪對我們軍人來講本來就是一種鼓舞我想這個是一個朝這樣子的方向來發展現在捷運的起薪多少錢你告訴我捷運起薪依照各種不同的階級的標準都不一樣4萬塊左右"},{"start":576.772,"end":602.546,"text":"差不多啊,4乘以13.5,50幾萬嘛,對不對?那我說很快的調50%,目標2027破百萬,護國神三病護國神病,這樣子的話跟採集店爭取人才啊,怎麼樣?謝謝委員的關注,謝謝委員的關注,我想委員的關注對我們都是一種鼓舞,謝謝委員應該說樂見其成啊,我做球給你都不敢接"},{"start":604.501,"end":631.294,"text":"對嗎?蔡局長對嗎?我這個建議不是很好你同意嗎?你的點頭同意?蔡局長有說什麼嗎?沒有,我尊重委員的一些意見尊重委員的一些意見要同意啦這個東西這是2027嘛你還找你現在同意做不到也沒有人會給你救責啊對不對但是最少要大幅提升啦不然的話買了這麼多武器沒有好的人來人都不夠啊沒人要來薪水太低嘛就是這樣講啊又有風險有可能"},{"start":633.115,"end":633.876,"text":"臺灣有沒有可能引進傭兵制度?"},{"start":657.649,"end":659.09,"text":"我們這個都不評論這個東西我們目前都沒有這樣子規劃"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時33分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請國安局蔡局長及國防部副部長。"],["主席：請蔡局長及副部長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。現在美國大選大家都很關心，根據我的資料，在這個時刻川普是198張選舉人票，賀錦麗是112張選票，看起來川普大概贏了是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，因為它還在開票、計票，我們可能不適合臆測。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，但是差這麼多耶！"],["蔡局長明彥：不適合臆測啦！這是外交分際，請委員可以理解。"],["賴委員士葆：不管怎麼樣，我先請教副部長，不過蔡局長要講話也可以講，大家都知道，原來今年初說臺灣的國防預算要到5%，然後在選舉的過程裡面說要到GDP的10%，我們現在大概占2.4%，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：所以5%的概念是什麼？就是現在六千多億的國防預算就變成一兆兩千多億；如果是10%，那就是2兆6,000億左右，我們的一年總預算是3兆，所以占我們的總預算超過八成，針對這樣的一個概念，國防部有這樣的想法嗎？會把它提這麼高嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我想國防預算也要看我們國家的財政狀況，這也是全體的共識，當然我們的國防預算是希望逐年成長，尤其是在現在的軍事環境的威脅情況之下，至於如何去成長，我認為還是看財政狀況以及未來的共識，大家如何採取一個國防的共識……"],["賴委員士葆：現在是占GDP2.5%左右，要提高到5%有沒有可能？短時間之內有沒有可能？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：短時間之內我看……"],["賴委員士葆：不可能嘛！你要大聲講不可能嘛，因為其他都不要做了啊，對不對？這個話應該要讓川普知道，他現在快當總統了，要讓他知道啊！結果我們現在都在這裡講，川普講的美國人都聽得到，你在這裡講美國人沒聽到。蔡局長要不要講一下？我們說短時間不可能到5%，這個聲音能不能讓美國知道？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重業管單位國防部的一些評估跟意見。"],["賴委員士葆：你是國安局長，也是要……"],["蔡局長明彥：因為國防部的預算是國防部在規劃的，我們外單位不好置評。"],["賴委員士葆：那我請問你，針對美國大選之後，你們國安單位有沒有開過國安會，就是說我們如何因應，有沒有幾套劇本因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛才也有跟其他委員說明，因為美國的選舉是一個滿長的動態過程，在這個過程當中，我們對於相關的發展都有一些討論，正式的國安會還沒有召開，因為剛剛總統府已經有對這一部分做說明了。"],["賴委員士葆：大概什麼時候會召開？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要由府方來宣布。"],["賴委員士葆：召開的話，你一定會到吧？原則上都會到嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：現在來講的話，我們的外交部次長在他的statement裡面講一個concern，又講一個worry，他就是關心川普會不會當選，然後又擔心川普會當選。如果川普當選，我看世界任何的媒體報導，看起來都是對臺灣有很大的壓力，請問這句話你同不同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：國際社會大家都在關注美國選情的狀況，臺灣方面我們也是高度的關注。"],["賴委員士葆：你會覺得他當選是個壓力嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：整體來講，因為川普政府也曾經執政過，在川普政府執政期間，臺灣方面不管跟國會或行政部門溝通合作都非常的順暢。"],["賴委員士葆：外界認為他最大的問題就是美國優先，原來是MAG，也就是Make America Great，現在加一個Again，讓美國再次偉大，他是一個生意人，就是他以美國為主，國際上的周邊組織儘量能夠不要管就不要管，或者如果要管的話就要付錢之類的，所以有學者就提到川普上來之後，大概我們要加入CPTPP會更困難，這個你怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：各方面的評估意見我們都有在蒐集跟參考，也跟委員說明一下，我剛剛有提到在川普政府第一任期之內，臺美的合作是發展得非常順暢，包括也是在川普任內那四年美國對臺軍售制度化，如果我沒有記錯，在2020年川普政府時期派美國的軍艦穿越臺海達到13次，是歷史新高，所以合作的狀況都有。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，但是你不要忘了，以川普時代和拜登時代相比，川普時代臺灣向美國買的武器（就是所謂的軍購）是拜登時代的三倍之多啊！所以大家就認為川普當選之後，他說要增加臺灣的保護費，pay for defense，這個是講保護費對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個尊重委員的用語。"],["賴委員士葆：英文就是pay for defense，他就講保護費嘛！保護費的意思就只有三條途徑：第一個是直接付錢，像日本、韓國，因為有美軍駐在該地，所以直接付錢。第二個就是軍購，我認為軍購一定會再增加。第三個就是台積電2.0、3.0，多一點的台積電去那裡，因為他說臺灣偷了他們的晶片，所以讓臺灣的晶片廠多一點去那邊設廠，這個你有什麼看法？"],["蔡局長明彥：各種的評估都有，我們尊重委員的一些觀察，但選舉期間難免會有一些政策的說明跟一些政治的處理，不一定在選後會變成政策，所以我們會持續來觀察後續實際政策執行的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：你認為川普不會要我們再提高國防經費嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分可能後續還要再觀察，因為選舉期間的一些用語，確實不一定能夠落實到後續真正政策的執行。"],["賴委員士葆：可是他講MAGA，要讓美國再次偉大，他一定是更加的……或者這樣問好了，他上來以後會不會重新重啟國際間的保護主義，會不會？"],["蔡局長明彥：這方面的討論很多，我們會持續的蒐研，看實際……"],["賴委員士葆：我們有沒有因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且跟委員……"],["賴委員士葆：我們有沒有因應？請問臺灣有沒有因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們有在蒐研兩個陣營，無論誰當選總統，未來不管是在國安或經貿的人事布局，這部分也都會影響後續的政策。"],["賴委員士葆：我們有幾套劇本來因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，各方面有在考慮。"],["賴委員士葆：幾套劇本？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有幾套啦，就整個人事的布局、政策的走向、後續他們印太政策可能的主要施政重點在哪裡，以及對臺灣會產生哪些影響，這大概都是我們評估的重點。"],["賴委員士葆：以印太來講的話，臺灣現在都沒有辦法加入IPEF，如果川普來的話更不容易！","最後一個，我請教柏副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：關於我們的軍購，大家預估一定會買更多的美國武器，因為他過去已經有這個紀錄了嘛，他的任內比拜登多了三倍，對臺灣的防衛有幫助我們當然都歡迎，可是我們人員不夠啊！我們的報告裡面都寫、我們的預算裡面都有提到，就是志願役創歷年來的新低，我昨天問了顧部長，他說你們正在研議要給志願役加薪，有沒有這回事？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：有。"],["賴委員士葆：幅度怎麼樣？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：現在還在研議當中，因為這個牽扯到……我剛才還是特別強調如何留住人才、如何合理的留住志願役這樣子的人才，尤其我們在討論專長比例，什麼專長是我們非常需要的，來決定加薪的比例。"],["賴委員士葆：我在想你們要打出一個亮的口號嘛，現在志願役……以薪水來講，我們的少將、旅長都還不如美國的一個中士，我們志願役的薪水真的一定要大幅提升啦！那起薪有沒有可能像現在台積電招募所稱的年薪百萬起跳？最少這一任賴清德總統卸任以前、2027年年薪破百萬，護國神山！我們要護國神兵啊！破百萬有可能嗎？來，副部長，你說一下。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想調薪這件事情我還是必須……"],["賴委員士葆：確定的？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我還是必須要強調，這還要看我們國家財政狀況來決定。"],["賴委員士葆：財政很好啊、財政很好啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：另外還要有全民的共識，我想調薪對我們軍人來講，本來就是一種鼓舞，目前朝這樣子的方向來發展，我們在研議當中。"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我現在志願役的起薪多少錢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：志願役起薪依照各種不同階級標準都不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：4萬塊左右，差不多啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：差不多，對。"],["賴委員士葆：乘以13.5，五十幾萬嘛，對不對？那我說很快的調50%，目標2027破百萬，護國神山變護國神兵！這樣子跟台積電爭取人才啊，怎麼樣？我給你換個……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員的關注，我想委員的關注對我們都是一種鼓舞，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：應該說樂見其成啊，我做球給你都不敢接，蔡局長，對吧？我這個建議不是很好？你同意嘛，你點頭同意，蔡局長，說一下嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我尊重委員的意見。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：尊重委員的意見。"],["賴委員士葆：要同意啦！這個東西是2027嘛，還早，你現在同意，做不到也沒有人會跟你究責，對不對？但是最少要大幅提升！不然的話，買了這麼多武器沒有好的人來，人都不夠、沒人要來，薪水太低嘛，就是這樣講啊！又有風險，我們的人跑去烏克蘭死了兩個了，請問一下，那位死的是去當傭兵，是不是？我們當然很不願意看到這個結果，請問你是不是傭兵？去烏克蘭死掉的是不是傭兵？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想這是他們個人的志願，我不便評論。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣有沒有可能引進傭兵制度？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們這個都不評論，這個東西……"],["賴委員士葆：不是！我問你啊，你們政策有沒有規劃這個？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們目前都沒有這樣子規劃。"],["賴委員士葆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，局長跟副部長請回。","我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時44分）","繼續開會（11時51分）"],["主席：開始開會。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","已經登記質詢的委員除了不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有黃仁委員、陳永康委員、劉建國委員、羅智強委員、王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d6a5a163c98980915ec98f8113ce54f742e72fbbb48a4d1ee989ff97b2754fa435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:32:49 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謝謝是不是有請我們經濟部部長"},{"start":37.13,"end":59.626,"text":"委員好。部長,這個今年颱風比較多,那颱風天最重要的也最辛苦的就是台電的維修人員,以防台天,我們大家都要怎麼避險,可是他們要去修復電力,所以他們是往危險的地方走。"},{"start":60.627,"end":79.173,"text":"那所以可以想像的就是說你在颱風天這些維修人員第一個他們工作辛苦那我想要請教因為我台電也有在旁邊齁如果部長有不清楚你就可以直接回答就是說這些台電的維修人員他們在颱風天出勤他們的薪水有沒有增加"},{"start":80.853,"end":104.682,"text":"呃,有加班費,但是實際的狀況我來請這個臺電的部長來跟各位報告因為我,我知道更實際的狀況比你臺電還要清楚是,我們臺風天出勤有另外有危險增貼有危險增貼嘛,對不對是,我們危險增貼是10月1號,我們國營市才剛調,調了那個是指臺電的內部維修人員但是現在臺電,臺電內部維修人員越來越少了,你們現在是不是都外包"},{"start":105.972,"end":125.043,"text":"有一半是外包的幾乎啦,依我在嘉義看,超過一半是外包好,你們外包的時候,你們請求外包單位在颱風天出去工作的時候有沒有額外給他們加給我們是加給,你給外包公司另外的幾副計算的方式完全不一樣,颱風是按時間給價"},{"start":129.065,"end":143.374,"text":"好,計算方式不一樣。我跟你說,大概一些維修人員的心聲,外包公司的維修人員幾乎都不想在颱風天出來工作。第一,費用。第二,外包公司也沒有額外給他錢啊。"},{"start":145.68,"end":162.728,"text":"沒有啊,你們給外包公司颱風天另外記下,他也沒有另外給那些維修人員啊所以對於他們那些維修人員來說,颱風天出來多危險啊所以你知道現在颱風天在於這個地方維修的效率越來越差"},{"start":164.96,"end":188.634,"text":"比你們因為最近才開始大放外包以前大概都是台電自己內部的維修嘛現在開始把它轉成一半是外包那你一半外包的時候你們對於外包公司他們對於員工的一些照顧以及在危險危險應該要額外給津貼的時候你們有算給他OK這個是應該要算的但是你們卻沒有進一步的去督促"},{"start":189.474,"end":207.866,"text":"他外包公司有沒有把應該要額外算給他的,如實全部給他的員工,出來維修的員工?這個我們來要求。第一個要求。第二個,如果要要求的話,你們應該要要求這一些出來工作的員工,要有編號。"},{"start":210.501,"end":232.559,"text":"我們有名單,一定有名單那你們台電要做的工作很簡單啊,你就叫人出來選選看這裡的人做什麼,就知道這裡的編號有出來,這裡的編號有出來,就這裡的人要記給他們這樣第一個避免備用人頭,因為外包公司品質我們怎樣不知道,可是我們要把制度設計好"},{"start":234.54,"end":250.168,"text":"這裏真的有來做的,就應該他們有做,就要給人們。是,應該,應該。對吧?所以你們這個制度要用好,不然我在颱風天我就拜託那些維修人員,因為我們這層頭也要修理,那層頭也要修理,我們也都去那裡說,你們這裡修理好嗎?我就是怕說,我們這樣一天說下去,我就說這樣中途來,我們快寬把包還是什麼。當然我們也是希望他們的卡丘那麼快。"},{"start":261.713,"end":277.193,"text":"但是我們不能互相催促啊!但是齁,我要跟他們互動的過程,我很聽到他們的心聲,讓我覺得很難過。是,感謝委員。這這,我們,鳳台鐵的待遇和包廂是很好的待遇啦。我知道,您讓包廂這麼好啊,所以包廂我們說鳳台鐵出來OK啊,但是他的人他調不出來啊。"},{"start":280.582,"end":282.003,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":309.577,"end":312.103,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":321.63,"end":343.543,"text":"好部長那我再接下去問所以我們現在有很多產業園區事實上我們產業園區我們第一個需要勞動力但是這些勞動力他們現在對於尤其在偏鄉像我們嘉義的產業園區不管是南進或是中埔的這樣的產業園區基本上相對於北部來說對年輕人來說比較偏鄉比較偏鄉基本上生活機能是比較不好的"},{"start":350.387,"end":363.724,"text":"所以我跟部長我具體建議啦因為時間也沒有剩很多我具體建議說我們產業園區署是不是都有一塊地要整起來變成這個產業園區的這個辦公室每個地方都有嘛"},{"start":365.117,"end":389.328,"text":"我們都有服務中心阿服務中心對都有服務中心我的具體建議啦我們因為現在國家在蓋社會住宅事實上在找公有地很困難你們為什麼這樣的一個服務中心跟社會住宅不能整併在一起然後讓這一些在產業園區上面的員工他可以就近有便宜的房子可以租那這樣的話對於他們來來這個產業園區上班第一個我們希望產業園區的"},{"start":395.191,"end":404.559,"text":"的企業可以照顧他的員工,薪水要高,如果他又可以就近,有地方可以住,然後他也可以省下他很大的交通費。"},{"start":412.845,"end":413.306,"text":"進行報告：一、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員及基層員工薪資水準"},{"start":430.165,"end":443.46,"text":"謝謝委員,我想你這個意見非常的好那我們會帶回去跟國土署跟國土署可以商量一下跟內政部,我想我們充分的來討論快速的討論解決現在目前的問題"},{"start":444.481,"end":473.215,"text":"我覺得這一點因為現在有些產業園區還在興建中像我們嘉義的南境、中埔的公館水上南境這個產業園區還在興建所以這個服務中心還沒有蓋好也還沒有開始所以現在去規劃阿剛好讓那裡都有社會住宅這樣起來我覺得就是一個很適當的一個方式好不好好那這部分就期待部長朝這方向來努力還有剛剛台電那一件事情我覺得我們要督促好"},{"start":473.915,"end":485.683,"text":"讓下一次訪台聽的時候再來外包公司的工人一樣感受到替國家賣命替國家來努力是有他的報酬的好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":915,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時33分）有請經濟部部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，今年颱風比較多，颱風天最重要也最辛苦的就是台電的維修人員，在颱風天我們大家都在想要怎麼避險，可是他們卻要去修復電力，所以他們是往危險的地方走，可以想像在颱風天這些維修人員工作的辛苦。我想要請教，台電也有在旁邊，如果部長有不清楚的地方，你可以直接回答，這些台電的維修人員在颱風天出勤，他們的薪水有沒有增加？"],["郭部長智輝：有加班費，但是實際的狀況，我請台電副總跟各位報告。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，實際狀況請台電說明，因為我知道更實際的狀況，比台電還要清楚。"],["陳副總經理銘樹：我們颱風天出勤另外有危險津貼。"],["蔡委員易餘：有危險津貼，對不對？"],["陳副總經理銘樹：我們的危險津貼10月1日國營司才剛調，調了……"],["蔡委員易餘：那個是指台電的內部維修人員，但是現在台電內部維修人員越來越少了，你們現在是不是都外包？"],["陳副總經理銘樹：有一半是外包的。"],["蔡委員易餘：幾乎啦！以我在嘉義看，有超過一半是外包。你們請求外包單位在颱風天出去工作的時候有沒有額外給他們另外的給付？"],["陳副總經理銘樹：有，計算方式完全不一樣，颱風是按時間給假。"],["蔡委員易餘：計算方式不一樣。我跟你說那些維修人員的心聲，外包公司的維修人員幾乎都不想在颱風天出來工作，第一個，危險。第二個，外包公司也沒有額外給他錢，沒有啊！你們給外包公司在颱風天另外計價，它也沒有另外給那些維修人員，所以對那些維修人員來說，颱風天出來危險多了。你知道現在颱風天在地方維修的效率越來越差，因為你們最近才開始大放外包，以前大概都是台電自己內部維修，現在開始把它轉成一半是外包，一半外包的時候，外包公司對於員工的照顧以及應該要額外給危險津貼的時候，你們有算給它，OK！這個是應該要算的，但是你們卻沒有進一步去督促外包公司有沒有把應該要額外算給他的，如實全部給出來維修的員工。"],["陳副總經理銘樹：這個我們來要求。"],["蔡委員易餘：第一個，你們要要求。第二個，如果要要求的話，你們應該要求這些出來工作的員工要有編號。"],["陳副總經理銘樹：我們有電腦名單。"],["蔡委員易餘：編號要清楚，台電要做的工作很簡單，你們就叫人出來巡，看看這些人有沒有在工作，就知道這些編號有沒有出來，這些編號的人有出來工作就要多給他們錢，第一個，避免被人頭利用，因為我們不知道外包公司品質怎樣，可是我們要把制度設計好，這些真的有來做的人，他們有做就應該要多給人家，對吧？"],["陳副總經理銘樹：是，應該的。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們這個制度要設計好，我在颱風天有陪那些維修人員，因為我們這個村子也要修理，那個村子也要修理，我也有去那裡問他們，你們這裡修理好了沒有，我也會怕這樣講會給人家壓力，所以我們中午也趕快準備肉包，還是做什麼，當然我們也是希望他們的動作快一點，不過我們不能催人家。我跟他們互動的過程就有聽到他們的心聲，我覺得很難過。"],["陳副總經理銘樹：感謝委員，我們颱風天給包商是很好的待遇，我們會來要求。"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道你們給包商很好，所以包商也認為在颱風天出來OK，不過它的人調不出來，下面的員工不跟它出來。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個我們會回去檢討，以後能夠讓實際出來冒險在工作的人得到他實際應該得到的報酬。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯，他在颱風天冒著這樣的生命危險，替我們在恢復電力。"],["郭部長智輝：也不會讓他超時工作。"],["蔡委員易餘：他應該就是要得到報酬。"],["郭部長智輝：我想各方面的安全、危險都要綜合考量，並做好防範。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，台電可以請回。今天產業園區署有來嗎？"],["主席：請產發署楊署長。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我再接下去問，我們現在有很多產業園區，事實上，第一個，產業園區需要勞動力，但是這些勞動力對於尤其在偏鄉，像嘉義的產業園區，不管是南靖或中埔的產業園區，基本上相對於北部來說，對年輕人來說比較偏鄉，比較偏鄉基本上生活機能是比較不好的，所以我跟部長具體建議，產業園區署是不是都有一塊地要整起來變成這個產業園區的辦公室，每個地方都有嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有服務中心。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，都有服務中心，我的具體建議是，因為現在國家在蓋社會住宅，事實上在找公有地很困難，為什麼這樣的服務中心和社會住宅不能整併在一起，讓這些在產業園區上班的員工可以就近有便宜的房子可以租？這樣的話，對於他們來產業園區上班，第一個，我們希望產業園區的企業可以照顧他的員工，薪水要高，如果他又可以就近有地方住，也可以省下很大的交通費，你們既然在那裡有公有地，而且你們的服務中心都差不多蓋1樓、2樓、3樓，你們可以蓋到9樓、10樓以上，上面做社會住宅使用，又解決了我們現在在尋求社會住宅，社會住宅也要放在適當的地方，有的放在比較偏僻的地方，不好，我覺得最好的就是放在產業園區裡面。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，你這個意見非常好，我們會帶回去跟國土署……"],["蔡委員易餘：可以跟國土署商量一下。"],["郭部長智輝：跟內政部我們充分的來討論、快速的討論，解決目前的問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為現在有一些產業園區還在興建中，像我們嘉義中埔公館、水上南靖產業園區還在興建中，所以服務中心還沒有蓋好，也還沒有開始，所以現在去規劃，剛好讓那裡有社會住宅，這樣規劃起來我覺得就是一個很適當的方式，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：這部分就期待部長朝這個方向來努力，還有剛剛台電那一件事情，我覺得我們要督促好，讓下一次颱風天的時候，外包公司的工人一樣感受到替國家賣命、替國家努力是有其報酬的，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，時間掌握非常精準，令主席敬佩。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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art":335.373,"end":356.962,"text":"所以說我們依照合約我們除了移民署罰之外我們根據他第二次啊那他如果第三次也是就罰錢了是他總金額9億他還是很賺啊來其他違反規定的契約的四項五項才罰14萬多的包含是上面我寫的這幾項也一樣嘛所以我就小這個金額比較小我不講"},{"start":357.682,"end":365.246,"text":"那這個工程是在10月17、18號做驗收請問局長知道驗收的時候缺失有幾項嗎?各位委員報告,詳細的缺失我不清楚大概是幾百項因為缺失大概在我們的經驗值大概都是幾百項的缺失在改進中缺項總共有258項所以其實真的算蠻多的"},{"start":385.498,"end":406.169,"text":"你一個9億的案子我們也給你時間做了然後你有258項在驗收的時候有缺失而且土建179、基建42、文建37按照這個契約要在11月11日完成離現在才差幾天而已局長你有掌握目前的改善進度嗎?"},{"start":407.096,"end":420.677,"text":"目前改善的進度我們公營中心都會督管我們按照委員指導的沒有改進就是按照每日計法工程款的千分之一我們一定會依法來進行徐巧芯那局長這個得標的廠商叫神明子"},{"start":423.373,"end":447.79,"text":"緣順網路上的負責人是姓黃叫做黃萬傑根據消息來源他的老闆姓曹是一位民進黨前立委曹來旺的弟弟曹來發他的兒子叫曹俊傑局長您知道他們這層關係嗎我不清楚你不清楚對不對"},{"start":448.63,"end":466.781,"text":"那我要告訴你一件事情在我們向你們國防部、軍備局索取了相關資料之後昨天有一個叫做曹俊傑的人說他跟我們辦公室有約要強行的上來我們辦公室說要跟我"},{"start":467.682,"end":467.802,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":489.369,"end":502.438,"text":"欺騙樓下的櫃台人員說他跟我有約結果呢我想說我根本不認識這個人為什麼他會說他跟我有約我們一查才知道就是這家廠商相關的關係人"},{"start":504.025,"end":506.486,"text":"副部長,你怎麼看這件事?這個是政治問題。是,所以我才問你啊。副部長,你講一下這個情況,你怎麼看這樣的情況?"},{"start":521.051,"end":529.677,"text":"我覺得此風不可長,我們所有的督導過程當然是公開透明的副部長我跟你說昨天的情況,我們收到了陳情案,我們只跟軍備局有聯繫,這件事情完全沒有跟任何其他人聯繫,然後呢,我們就是今天預定要表定質詢"},{"start":542.265,"end":555.855,"text":"昨天這個捅包案的陳蘭商到委員研究室的一樓櫃檯報他公司名稱說要找徐巧芯的辦公室謊稱說他是要上來開會的說跟我有約用騙的"},{"start":558.787,"end":575.954,"text":"這樣子的一個營造公司是我們軍備局是我們國防部可以信任的嗎難道以後我向單位所知瞭解事情然後你們有內鬼跟營造廠通風報信今天我們所講的他的缺失你們確實有人罰錢了確實就是做不好確實就是應該要檢討"},{"start":577.395,"end":591.91,"text":"我們立法委員質詢這個問題有錯在哪裡嗎?我們都是要幫助這個工程變得更好提醒軍備局要去改善在11月11號驗收的時候能夠過關嘛也是保護這個相關工程進度的安全守護大家的納稅錢嘛"},{"start":593.231,"end":618.792,"text":"那怎麼會有一個廠商他囂張到9億多的預算拿到之後只因為不曉得從哪一個管道第一絕對不是我們第二我們只跟軍備局聯絡過而已我們沒有跟其他單位聯絡過他就知道是我們要質詢然後就用這種欺騙欺瞞的方式說要來找我們開會發生這樣的事情就在昨天我今天要質詢他昨天來"},{"start":620.14,"end":636.22,"text":"所以我想要請這個副部長你講一下就是對這個事情你們能不能夠去嚴查到底是誰去透露這些資訊給廠商做出這麼我覺得蠻不適格的行為"},{"start":637.679,"end":656.494,"text":"我沒有跟他約他跑上來那如果我真的跟他見到面了那我還不到時候被誣賴說哎呀你跟廠商有見過面啊怎麼樣怎麼樣我哪知道就還好我們是有預警就大剌剌的報公司名稱覺得能夠來跟立委喬事情讓我們不要質詢嗎這樣的廠商你們還能夠信任嗎"},{"start":660.077,"end":688.658,"text":"所以第一針對廠商這樣子的行徑可不可以承諾去向他們詢問到底為什麼要這樣做第二因為我們只跟軍備局聯絡所以我們非常合理的懷疑是軍備局裡面的人員當然絕不是局長我是說相關可能的人員向廠商透露可能會被立法委員質詢因為我沒有索取相關資料這件事情可不可以查清楚給我們一個交代"},{"start":690.516,"end":710.81,"text":"首先我要謝謝委員在這種工程上給我們的監督這對我們來講是非常好的是有利的那第二個您講的這些事實我想我也必須去了解為什麼廠商會直接用這樣的方式去找到您那我想我們如果說按照您所講的對阿如果我被威脅對如果說是您辦公室還有我們那我們自己內部也回去去檢討"},{"start":715.113,"end":731.209,"text":"我們也防範這種事情發生是不好的而且非常危險啊今天如果是其他國防的是其他可能軍工產業的那我們是不是我們作為委員我們有人生上面的安全的問題所以這件事情我要問副部長能不能夠送政風調查"},{"start":733.451,"end":733.631,"text":"徐巧芯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時11分）謝謝主席。我們先請國防部副部長。"],["主席：請副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。根據中時新聞網的一篇新聞裡面談到，最近大家看到在新竹湖口陸軍第六軍團裡面，有一位義務役的新兵竟然持步槍在營區的廁所內開槍，這個新聞裡面提到這個士兵剛好看到在基地訓練的星國部隊遺落的一個子彈，然後不明原因帶入廁所擊發，這個也讓星國部隊在臺密訓再度曝光，請問目前我們國防部對此的正式回應是什麼？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我請陸軍來回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：請說。"],["陳參謀長建義：委員好。向委員報告，我先簡單說明一下，任何實戰化的訓練，我們對於訓令跟安全的規範都有明確的律定，這只是一起個人沒有遵守到規範的事件，其實我要明確的說，這跟星光部隊沒有關聯。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有關聯？"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是為什麼他會撿到子彈，然後帶到廁所裡面再擊發？這個過程可不可以說明一下你們現在的調查結果？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，可以的，我們現在在整個訓場上，我要先講它的場景是在訓場內……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道。"],["陳參謀長建義：訓場內，我們實戰化的射擊，我們現在也要求不要因為動作當中彈藥的遺落，立刻去撿拾，因為在戰場上，這也是不允許的，但是我們會在整個射擊完畢之後，依照行進的路線，再去做一次搜索，這是第一個。但是難免還是會有一些彈藥的遺落，這名士兵就是在這樣的一個訓練過程當中，他去撿拾了一枚空包彈。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以他撿的地方是在哪？"],["陳參謀長建義：是在我們湖口訓場裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：裡面的哪裡？"],["陳參謀長建義：在某高地的鋼棚。"],["徐委員巧芯：某高地？所以是訓練的場地裡面撿的？"],["陳參謀長建義：是的，是在訓練場域。"],["徐委員巧芯：有沒有去了解這個同仁他為什麼要做這件事？"],["陳參謀長建義：做了初步了解，我跟委員報告，我們對於這個有兩個面向，第一個，我們不能因為實戰化而鬆懈到訓練的紀律，反而更應該要求。"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！"],["陳參謀長建義：這在事前都有加強的要求，他如果真的發現有前面部隊所遺落的彈藥沒有被清查到，他要立刻的向幹部回報。"],["徐委員巧芯：這是當然。"],["陳參謀長建義：對，這次這個事……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，因為這個我們都清楚嘛，但我要問的是，這個士兵他是刻意撿子彈的吧？"],["陳參謀長建義：他就是在訓練過程……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！因為他不是在廁所發現的。他在訓練過程的時候，他看到有遺落的子彈，他撿起來之後，沒有回報，還帶到廁所去擊發，他的動機到底是什麼呢？你們目前的調查，你總會跟這個士兵去了解跟調查。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，目前的行政調查和據這名士官下士的說明，他是說基於好奇，但是實際上我們也交由憲兵隊去釐清，憲兵隊後面會依據整個需要來函送相關檢調。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這樣我明白了，這個比新聞還要清楚一點，謝謝您。"],["陳參謀長建義：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：接下來，我要繼續問另外一個問題，關於下湖東營區統包工程這件事情，我們要請軍備局局長，換軍備局局長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：請軍備局局長。"],["徐委員巧芯：局長，針對海軍下湖東營區興建統包工程案，總金額有九億多，施工期間是3年，我們辦公室有收到檢舉過程工程多項的缺失，所以也了解了一下，我想要問局長，你有沒有了解這個工程的施工期間，有多少次的違法跟違規紀錄？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，它的工程履約期間，原來是元順，它有違反勞動部的就業服務法，非法僱用非法外籍人士，有被移民署裁罰了120萬，另外本部依照契約，也給它罰了110萬，另外違反規定相關的逾期有5項14萬，整個總工期我們給它罰了244萬，都依規定來實施計罰，我們都有紀錄……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，你依規定來實施相關的懲罰，但問題是這個工程問題就很大，你一個九億多的興建統包工程案，然後我數給你聽，112年5月17日有5個非法移工，移民署罰了50萬；113年4月，移民署又再去營區抓了6個非法移工，罰70萬。我就問112年才抓過一次，為什麼113年都還繼續有？請問軍備局，對於這個九億多的工程計畫，在包商處理這個事情的時候，你們難道沒有更嚴謹地要求對方嗎？為什麼還會持續連續兩年都發生這樣的狀況？"],["林局長文祥：所以我們依照合約，除了移民署罰之外，我們根據他第二次，我們還是再……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果第三次也是就罰錢了事，它總金額9億，它還是很賺啊！其他違反規定的契約事項，5項才罰十四萬多，包含上面我寫的這幾項也一樣嘛！這個金額比較小，我不講。這個工程是在10月17日、18日驗收，請問局長，知道驗收的時候，缺失有幾項嗎？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，詳細的缺失，我不清楚，大概是幾百項，因為在我們的經驗值，大概都是幾百項的缺失在改進中。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，缺項總共有258項，所以其實真的算蠻多的，你一個9億的案子，我們也給你時間做了，然後你有258項在驗收的時候有缺失，而且土建179項、機電42項、文件37項，按照契約要在11月11日完成，離現在才差幾天而已，局長有掌握目前的改善進度嗎？"],["林局長文祥：目前改善的進度，我們工營中心都會督管，我們按照委員指導的，沒有改進就是按照每日計罰工程款的千分之一，我們一定會依合約來進行。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，局長，這個得標的廠商叫什麼名字？"],["林局長文祥：元順。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，網路上的負責人姓黃，叫做黃萬結，根據消息來源，他的老闆姓曹，就是一位民進黨前立委曹來旺的弟弟曹來發，他的兒子叫做曹俊傑。局長，您知道他們這層關係嗎？"],["林局長文祥：我不清楚。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不清楚，對不對？我要告訴你一件事情，在我們向你們國防部軍備局索取了相關資料之後，昨天有一個叫做曹俊傑的人說他跟我們辦公室有約，要強行上來我們辦公室，說要跟我談這個事情，你覺得這樣子是妥善的嗎？"],["林局長文祥：這個我不清楚……"],["徐委員巧芯：這就是這家營造公司裡面的人，然後他們知道了我們……我都沒有質詢喔！所以你們內部有人有問題、有去洩密，說我問了什麼資料，讓這家公司知道，然後他們派他們的人來，欺騙樓下的櫃臺人員，說他跟我有約，結果我根本不認識這個人，為什麼他會說跟我有約？我們一查才知道，就是這家廠商相關的關係人。副部長，你怎麼看這件事？這個是政治問題。"],["林局長文祥：我不清楚廠商去找委員。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這一段我相信我們軍備局也不了解。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以我才問你啊！我才問你嘛！副部長，你怎麼看這樣的情況？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我覺得此風不可長，當然，我們所有督導過程都是公開透明的……"],["徐委員巧芯：副部長，我跟你說昨天的情況，就是我們收到了陳情案，我們只跟軍備局有聯繫，完全沒有跟任何其他人聯繫，然後就是預定、表定今天要質詢。昨天這個統包案的承攬商到委員研究室的一樓櫃檯報公司名稱，說要找徐巧芯辦公室，謊稱跟我有約，是要上來開會的，他是用騙的，這樣一個營造公司，是我們軍備局、國防部可以信任的嗎？難道以後我們向單位索資，了解事情，然後你們就有內鬼跟營造廠通風報信？今天我們所講的他的缺失，確實有人被罰錢了、確實就是做不好、確實就是應該要檢討，我們立法委員質詢這個問題有錯在哪裡嗎？我們是希望幫助讓這個工程變得更好，提醒軍備局要去改善，在11月11號驗收的時候能夠過關，也是保護這個相關工程進度的安全，守護大家的納稅錢，怎麼會有一個廠商囂張到九億多的預算拿到之後，只因為不曉得從哪一個管道獲悉，第一，絕對不是我們；第二，我們只跟軍備局聯絡過而已，沒有跟其他單位聯絡，他就知道是我要質詢，然後用這種欺騙、欺瞞的方式說要來找我開會。就在昨天發生這樣的事情，我今天要質詢，他昨天來，所以我想要請問副部長，對於這個事情，你們能不能嚴查到底是誰透露這些資訊給廠商，讓他們做出這麼蠻不適格的行為？我沒有跟他約，他跑上來，如果我真的跟他見到面，到時候會不會被誣賴說跟廠商見過面怎樣、怎樣的？我哪知道啊！還好我們有預警。他大剌剌的報公司名稱，覺得能夠來跟立委喬事情，讓我們不要質詢嗎？這樣的廠商，你們還能夠信任嗎？所以，第一，針對廠商這樣的行徑，你可不可以承諾向他們詢問，到底為什麼要這樣做？第二，因為我們只有跟軍備局聯絡，所以非常合理懷疑是軍備局裡面的人員透露，當然絕不是局長，我是說可能是相關人員向廠商透露可能會被立法委員質詢，因為我們有索取相關資料，這件事情可不可以查清楚，給我們一個交代？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，首先要謝謝委員在工程上給我們的監督，這個對我們來講是非常好的，是有利的。第二，你講的這些事實，我想我也必須去了解，為什麼廠商會直接用這樣的方式去找到委員，如果按照你所講的……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！如果我被威脅、恐嚇……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：如果說是委員辦公室和我們，那我們自己內部要回去檢討，我們也要防範，發生這種事情是不好的……"],["徐委員巧芯：而且非常危險，今天如果是其他國防的、軍工產業的，是不是我們作為委員可能就有人身安全上的問題？所以針對這件事情，我要請問副部長，能不能夠送政風調查？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，可以的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，可以，你送政風調查，然後給我一個結果，因為這牽涉到所有委員未來在索資的時候，大家的安全性。針對這個事情，我們完全是依公開資料去質詢，完全有理有據，不應該發生這樣的事情。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不應該發生，是。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝副部長，那就麻煩送政風處處理，謝謝。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，副部長請回。","我們修正稍早的宣告：待會林岱樺委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。"],["賴委員士葆：還有我啊！"],["主席：前面還有洪孟楷委員。","好，現在請林岱樺委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156547","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156547","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7dee8b6a4db9abcb6fec98f8113ce54f742e72fbbb48a4d1ee0f6f7234e961ca575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:09:51 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麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部副部長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 馬文好局長好我想今天可能大家全球都在關注的就是美國的大選那現在雖然結果還沒有出來不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果"},{"start":29.455,"end":50.888,"text":"因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選他對我們台灣一定有非常大的影響那就這個部分我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析大概他們兩位當選對我們台海的局勢也好或者整體的這些我們的一個區域安全也好有什麼樣的一個不同"},{"start":53.309,"end":66.956,"text":"對,因為跟委員報告就這次的選情真的很焦灼那七個關鍵州的那個民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2那所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果那但正如委員所講的針對不同的總統當選人後續可能在"},{"start":70.658,"end":71.099,"text":"對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位?"},{"start":91.679,"end":111.889,"text":"兩位的一個相關的政策討論事實上我剛也在進來會場之前跟媒體說明那基本上至終有台這個路線應該不會有太大的改變因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對台政策的一個基本的立場是建立在台灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上所以在基本的"},{"start":112.509,"end":113.349,"text":"因為顯然就他們兩位可能過去因為川普也曾經擔任過美國總統"},{"start":129.534,"end":133.777,"text":"對於我們來說還有現在賀錦麗雖然是新的不過因為她還是追隨拜登總統的這樣的路線我想差異也不大那對我們來說我們可能因為顯然川普在競選期間其實他也提到像俄烏戰爭他很快就會讓他停止他會用什麼樣的方式策略手段我們不曉得可是一旦俄烏的那個戰爭"},{"start":156.77,"end":156.81,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":174.758,"end":189.028,"text":"我再請教一個就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯那他對於我們這樣周邊的一個區域安全或者我們像這樣子的一個周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響"},{"start":190.028,"end":194.15,"text":"這個倒有的,因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢會出現更密切的一個連動那關切的重點一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話俄國會不會來協助北韓這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點那第二個是在印太地區"},{"start":212.119,"end":235.366,"text":"有北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下那台海安全的重要性那我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視那也在書面報告有提到在今年以來已經有9個國家在台海進行那個海軍船艦的巡航已經有15次之多那表示大家對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高"},{"start":236.206,"end":250.777,"text":"我想局長我們可以在這裡探討一下有很多其他國家在這邊巡航其實有很多他們只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的他並不是真的在乎也許台灣的處境當然這個台海的局勢會牽動所有的後續的影響可是他們在乎的還是他們自己所以我們現在為什麼特別提到"},{"start":260.784,"end":269.137,"text":"北韓派兵援助俄羅斯的這個部分因為如果增加這樣子的一個兵力或者像一個軍事的行動的時候可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島還有就是歐洲的局勢"},{"start":276.267,"end":294.54,"text":"因為這樣子他們只要一牽動那再加上是不是會對日本造成影響那日本有影響的時候會不會分心或者美國會不會分心這個可能才是我們要比較注意的因為對岸他你的看法對岸會採取什麼樣的一個方向對於他們"},{"start":296.421,"end":324.024,"text":"對 我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國就北韓 派兵去俄羅斯你覺得對岸的那個態度會是比較怎麼樣或者他的策略會有什麼樣的調整角色立場對 就北韓參戰的問題來講我們的分析是認為說中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷地強化那中國也會有點擔心"},{"start":325.845,"end":326.406,"text":"所以我們剛剛在講說他有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊"},{"start":349.261,"end":378.981,"text":"我想其實他報不一定是尷尬可是他希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢那如果俄羅斯去協助就是北韓去協助俄羅斯的話未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他的相關技術的支援等等類似這樣那因為你在報告上面有說中國希望可以在這中間可以獲取最大的利益所謂這個利益是什麼"},{"start":380.362,"end":396.478,"text":"對,在這過程當中俄國跟北韓的合作對中國來講有一部分的戰略利益是可以對於美日同盟造成一個牽制讓美日同盟在這邊受到了那個俄國跟北韓的一個合作的一個戰略牽制但另一方面來講"},{"start":397.799,"end":412.288,"text":"中國在擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的因為俄國在跟北韓合作過程當中開始提供北韓很多的經濟援助那也提供北韓去改善他火箭衛星火箭的技術那這部分又不是中國所樂意看到的"},{"start":412.861,"end":431.286,"text":"不過在國際還有很多其他的專家學者或者很多的包括期刊或者很多的論述其實甚至認為北韓還有俄羅斯還有中國還有甚至伊朗其實像他們可能是會串聯在一起的這跟我們的看法又不太一樣"},{"start":431.946,"end":444.59,"text":"所以其實在我們的評估上面其實還是有很多的可能性不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位因為其實我們常常看的都只有中共的動向因為包括像最近中日韓就重新再重啟一些相關的談判"},{"start":447.771,"end":460.423,"text":"那日本跟中國也是一樣他們有很多還是為了自身很多不管經濟也好未來的國家整體的發展也好其實他們都有很多談判的條件跟空間他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時在調整當中當他們變好的時候我們又應該"},{"start":466.549,"end":493.03,"text":"我們一直常常一直講所有什麼理念相近的國家啦民主國家啦什麼都會幫我們可是顯然我們看到很多現在的緊張的局勢不管中東的局勢也好不管俄烏的局勢也好顯然都不是像我們說的這樣這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共要看的是我們整體的周邊還有整體的全球的一些相關局勢的牽動"},{"start":494.992,"end":495.832,"text":"民主陣營和威權陣營的對立確實在升高只是也有在管理一些風險"},{"start":509.667,"end":512.148,"text":"美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來這個部分我們還是請國安單位比較具體的讓大家知道上一次我有跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們"},{"start":533.553,"end":533.593,"text":"副部長"},{"start":544.741,"end":559.906,"text":"馬委員好副部長好因為剛剛有提到我們美國大選那其實最重要的國安的平息他的延期其實對我們來說國防部是比較具體的作為那想要請教副部長如果像川普當選的話因為川普擔任總統的時候他出售我們台灣的武器裝備軍售的部分比"},{"start":571.97,"end":587.322,"text":"拜登總統其實高出三倍那他甚至揚言說我們的應該要交保護費還要GDP應該要佔10%的這樣的一個比例那國防部的看法怎麼樣會怎麼做"},{"start":589.605,"end":609.423,"text":"報告委員我想我們對於美國的選舉我們都很重視了但是重要的是我們部長特別強調今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立那我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防的戰力"},{"start":610.223,"end":635.021,"text":"現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的因為川普的時期就已經賣給我們這麼多的武器裝備其實到現在很多我們都還沒拿到那拜登總統的時候也是可是他的金額高出這麼多那他當選以後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出我們國防部的角色我想要知道我們國防部會怎麼做可以怎麼做敢怎麼做"},{"start":637.122,"end":666.085,"text":"報告委員事實上來講不管誰當選了我想他們對台的軍售到目前為止我們看沒有什麼變化因為軍售它是國與國之間簽訂的合約的概念你也非常清楚所以那要看未來的發展那我們都會因應也就是說這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上變化上來講但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的那我想這一點在目前來講我們是沒有看到任何變化"},{"start":667.045,"end":683.823,"text":"我們看到我們的軍售並沒有如期因為在對外的公開的資訊裡面說我們只剩下兩個稍微有延宕那是錯的因為你們把期程把它延了本來五年的你把它延成十年然後都是最後一年才要通通交期給我們那當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕"},{"start":690.089,"end":710.427,"text":"這是錯的,這在玩文字遊戲,我們現在你付錢的時候是一起一起耶,他應該給你到多少的時候我們才付多少,所以不要用文字的這樣子的錯覺,讓我們的人民以為我們已經拿到了,或者我們都可以如期的獲得,這是錯的,我再提醒一次,我們把期程延長"},{"start":712.469,"end":728.743,"text":"所以我剛剛講的就是像魚叉飛彈他突然差進來800多億866億現在有很多如果連其他的再加進來可能超過千億可是他到現在還沒有辦法給我們他延了10年那類似像這樣的情況如果川普總統"},{"start":729.904,"end":740.689,"text":"就是川普再一次當選那我們國防部可不可以強勢一點做我們整體你要有決心你的決心要讓人民信任因為如果你買的是我們不是需要的或者不是我們應該要如期如止獲得的這樣大家會對我們的整個我們的國防還有我們的軍事其實是更失望這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度"},{"start":757.041,"end":765.489,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想這當然是國人關心而且這是重大投資所以在未來來講就如委員所說的敢不敢要跟美方多談判我們的需求當然我們的決心絕對是我的防衛需求"},{"start":774.958,"end":781.679,"text":"絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我一律是我的需求我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷報告委員這一點我們在未來來講我們也會在立法院監督情況下能夠跟委員報告我們的所有的防衛需求是依照我的台灣的這樣的特殊環境來做建設我們的戰力絕對不會是因為你今天強推給我也要經過委員會的同意這個東西都是經過監督的我想這一點我們絕對有強烈決心"},{"start":802.984,"end":808.388,"text":"經過監督這樣是不是會把責任推給反對?我現在要說的是因為川普如果當選以後現在不曉得也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統可是如果他們有這樣子的要求我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上現在已經要審預算了我看還是有很多的問題可能後續大家還要討論我想要請教一下過去因為今天部長也不在為什麼會做這樣的調整機密的"},{"start":832.185,"end":834.668,"text":"再問一次,今年有不給嗎?怎麼樣?"},{"start":850.872,"end":873.097,"text":"原因是什麼不好意思主席要借一點點時間我也好我是主席局局長我想告訴我原因就好為什麼過去一直以來都有今年突然沒有因為機密的摘要本它本身內涵還是有機密的資訊我們依據國家經濟保護法有關相關的機密的預算書表按照立法院的來文我想請教一下主任我想請教過去為什麼可以"},{"start":880.376,"end":881.377,"text":"為什麼不可以看機密?"},{"start":896.875,"end":904.86,"text":"我們在監督審查的時候你本來就可以看啊除非我們洩密嘛從過去到現在你最好把洩密查清楚尤其在去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案應該都要把它查清楚趁這個機會很可惜調查權沒有通過我們希望他可以通過因為洩密是誰洩的是立法委員嗎你有查到嗎今天你在"},{"start":922.697,"end":950.976,"text":"副部長是那個空軍出身的在那個案今年的機密案裡面其實他有一個就是我們C136H的提升案對不對媒體早就把他爆出來了包括你的金額包括你的內容寫得詳細非常清楚這個部分他怎麼洩出去的為什麼立法委員不可以看我想請教副部長明年的機密案有幾件"},{"start":952.795,"end":974.114,"text":"幫委員 這個我們可以檢討因為過去 既然有這樣的事為什麼今年改成這樣我覺得我們主席局還要再思考一下今天委員本來就有監督的這種權利嘛那至於說因為不然下次我就考你們喔就是你要把所有的地方記下來讓我們光是去看一次大家可以記到金額包括你的期程包括你的內容因為你所有的"},{"start":974.634,"end":988.624,"text":"都是用你的案名其實都是有另外取名字的所以你叫大家去記我們也可以反過來考你們吧如果你們建案的你都記不清楚或者跟過去有什麼關聯為什麼我覺得你們會怎麼做這樣的調整包括我們現在的委員都是新的你的案子其實我們所有的機密案他都不是一年完成"},{"start":998.772,"end":999.653,"text":"他的觀點從哪裡?我再跟委員報告"},{"start":1028.168,"end":1028.248,"text":"一個禮拜"},{"start":1050.495,"end":1071.79,"text":"委員這個為什麼要一個禮拜你為什麼做這樣的決定為什麼要一個禮拜我們下去再檢討一下跟委員報告再跟委員報告是禮拜五之前告訴我們然後我們也希望我們很快的可以拿到好沒問題是不然你們所有的我隨便抽查你們就要同時要記住要不然你沒有理由叫立法委員去背這些啊是委員我們下去跟委員報告是"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時53分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局蔡局長還有國防部柏副部長。"],["主席：請蔡局長、副部長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：局長好。今天全球都在關注的就是美國的大選，現在雖然結果還沒有出來，不過我們看到像這樣子的一個結果，因為不管是川普當選或者賀錦麗當選，他對我們臺灣一定有非常大的影響。就這個部分，我們現在有沒有初步的一個分析，大概他們兩位當選，對我們臺海的局勢也好或者我們整體的區域安全也好，有什麼樣的不同？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有，跟委員報告，這次的選情真的很膠著，7個關鍵州民調的差距甚至都是0.1、0.2，所以我們也不方便去臆測選舉的結果。但是正如委員所講的，針對不同的總統當選人，後續可能在國安或外交政策人事布局的部分，我們一直有在關注。再來是他們在選舉過程當中，對於一些政策議題，包括印太的政策、對中的政策、臺海的政策、經貿的政策、科技產業的政策，我們都有一個完整的蒐研。"],["馬委員文君：對我們挑戰比較大的會是哪一位？"],["蔡局長明彥：兩位的相關的政策討論，事實上，剛剛我在進來會場之前也有跟媒體說明，基本上，制中友臺這個路線應該不會有太大的改變，因為這大概是美國兩黨長期以來對臺政策的一個基本立場，是建立在臺灣關係法跟六項保證的承諾上，所以在基本的路線上不會有太大的改變，但是現在要注意的是政策細節的部分，不同的團隊應該會有他們不同重視的一些議題，這部分才是我們關注的重點。"],["馬委員文君：因為顯然就他們兩位，過去川普也曾經擔任過美國總統，對我們來說，現在賀錦麗雖然是新的，不過因為他還是追隨拜登總統這樣的路線，我想差異也不大，對我們來說，因為川普在競選期間也提到，像俄烏戰爭，他很快就會讓它停止，他會用什麼樣的方式、策略、手段我們不曉得，可是一旦俄烏戰爭停止以後，其實我們可能也會產生一些變化，這跟他的過去也許也會有一些不太一樣，這個部分因為我們沒有辦法現在做臆測，可是我們好像也聽不到剛剛局長有特別說明兩個的差異，或者未來我們必須面對的是什麼。我再請教一個問題，就是北韓派兵去援助俄羅斯，對於我們周邊的區域安全，或者周邊國際社會或地緣政治有什麼影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個倒有的……"],["馬委員文君：簡單說明好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。因為北韓的參戰會讓歐洲跟亞洲的安全情勢出現更密切的連動，而關切的重點，一個是在北韓參加俄烏戰爭之後，萬一未來有朝鮮半島情勢升高的話，俄國會不會來協助北韓？這大概是對區域政治第一個要觀察的重點；第二個是在印太地區，有北韓的情勢升溫跟中共在海洋的擴張的這些地緣環境之下，臺海安全的重要性，我們在這一陣子有感受到各國越來越重視，也在書面報告有提到，今年以來已經有9個國家在臺海進行海軍船艦的巡航，已經有15次之多，表示大家對於臺海情勢的關注程度越來越高。"],["馬委員文君：局長，我想我們可以在這裡探討一下，有很多其他國家在這邊巡航，其實有很多只是要確保他們的航線是沒有問題的，他們並不是真的在乎臺灣的處境，當然臺海的局勢會牽動所有後續的影響，可是他們在乎的還是他們自己，所以我們現在為什麼特別提到北韓派兵援助俄羅斯這個部分？因為如果增加這樣的兵力，或者像一個軍事行動的時候，可能會牽動的大概就是朝鮮半島，還有就是歐洲的局勢，因為他們只要一牽動，再加上是不是會對日本造成影響？日本有影響的時候會不會分心？或者美國會不會分心？這個可能才是我們要比較注意的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對、對。"],["馬委員文君：對岸對他們會採取什麼樣的方向？您的看法？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想對岸也是在觀察整個美國……"],["馬委員文君：就北韓派兵去俄羅斯，你覺得對岸的態度會是怎麼樣？或者它的策略會有什麼樣的調整？它的角色、立場？"],["蔡局長明彥：就北韓參戰的問題來講，我們的分析是認為中共有點處在一個尷尬的處境，也就是看到俄國跟北韓的關係不斷的強化，中國也會有點擔心北韓對中國的依賴或關係也會受到一些影響，但另一方面，北韓的參戰能不能夠讓俄國在戰場上因為有北韓兵援的投入，能夠不會有遭遇更多烏軍的反撲？中國在這方面又有點期待，所以我們剛剛在講說它有點尷尬的處境就處在這邊。"],["馬委員文君：我想其實它倒不一定是尷尬，可是它希望可以控制整個東北亞安全的局勢，如果北韓去協助俄羅斯的話，未來是不是在很多武器裝備上面會獲得其他相關技術的支援等等類似這樣……"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有。"],["馬委員文君：因為你在報告上面有說，中國希望在這中間可以獲取最大的利益，這個利益是什麼？你們評估的利益是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：在這個過程當中，俄國跟北韓的合作，對中國來講，有一部分的戰略利益是可以對美日同盟造成一個牽制，讓美日同盟在這邊受到俄國和北韓合作的戰略牽制，但另一方面來講，中國最擔心的也是剛剛委員有稍微提到的，因為俄國在跟北韓合作的過程當中開始提供北韓很多經濟援助，也提供北韓去改善它衛星火箭的技術，這個部分又不是中國所樂意看到的。"],["馬委員文君：不過國際上還有很多其他的專家學者、期刊或論述甚至認為，北韓、俄羅斯、中國、伊朗可能會串連在一起，這跟我們的看法又不太一樣，所以其實在我們的評估上面還有很多可能性。不過我們還是要提醒我們的國安單位，因為我們常常都只看中共的動向，包括像最近中、日、韓就要重啟一些相關的談判，日本跟中國也是一樣，他們為了自身很多不管經濟也好，未來國家整體發展也好，還是都有很多談判的條件跟空間，他們的角色或者他們的關係隨時都在調整當中，當他們變好的時候，我們又應該……","我們一直講什麼所有什麼理念相近的國家啦！民主國家啦！什麼都會幫我們，可是顯然，我們看到很多現在緊張的局勢，不管中東的局勢也好，不管俄烏的局勢也好，顯然都不是像我們說的這樣。這一點我們也要特別提醒國安單位，其實我們在看的時候不要只看中共，要看的是我們整體的周邊，還有整體的全球相關局勢的牽動，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就基本上……"],["馬委員文君：希望可以提供一些更精準的研析。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。基本上，在結構上正如剛剛跟委員報告的，民主陣營跟威權陣營的對立確實在升高，只是也有在管理一些風險，所以才會有一些基於國家利益算計的交往。"],["馬委員文君：沒關係！我們看不出風險的管理，因為我們看到的緊張態勢好像是越來越緊張。美國大選以後可能還是會有一些比較明朗的態勢出來，這個部分還是請國安單位能比較具體地讓大家知道。","上次我跟國安局要的資料好像還沒提供給我們，下去以後……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來瞭解一下。"],["馬委員文君：馬上好不好？這個禮拜就應該給我們了，已經很久了。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來處理。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：局長請回。請副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：副部長好。因為剛剛有提到美國大選，其實最重要的國安評析和研析，對我們來說，國防部是比較具體的作為，想要請教副部長，如果川普當選的話，因為他之前擔任總統的時候，出售給臺灣的武器裝備（軍售的部分）比拜登總統高出三倍，他甚至揚言我們應該要交保護費，國防預算還要占GDP的10%，請問國防部的看法怎麼樣、會怎麼做？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想我們對於美國的選舉都很重視，但是……"],["馬委員文君：我是說……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：重要的是我們部長特別強調，今天國防就是防衛自我的決心要建立，我們先求自己能夠有自己的能力去建立自己的國防戰力，那……"],["馬委員文君：現在他要我們買的如果不是我們要的呢？因為川普之前就已經賣給我們這麼多武器裝備，到現在很多我們都還沒拿到，拜登總統的時候也是，可是川普當初的金額高出那麼多，而他這次當選之後顯然會強烈要求我們必須做這樣的付出，那麼我們國防部的角色呢？我想要知道：我們國防部會怎麼做？可以怎麼做？敢怎麼做？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，事實上來講，不管誰當選，他們對臺軍售到目前為止我們看並沒有什麼變化，因為軍售是國與國之間簽訂合約，你也非常清楚，所以……"],["馬委員文君：他需要你買更多的時候呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：那要看未來的發展。我們都會因應，也就是說，這個也要看我們未來在整個局勢上的變化，但是我們希望我們的軍售是能夠如期來執行的，這一點就目前來講我們並沒有看到任何變化。"],["馬委員文君：我們看到的是我們的軍售並沒有如期獲得，因為在對外的公開資訊裡面說我們只剩下2個稍微有延宕，那是錯的！因為你們把期程延後了，本來5年的，你們把它延成10年，然後都是最後一年才要交齊給我們，當然現在看起來好像沒有延宕，其實這是錯的，這是在玩文字遊戲！你付錢的時候是一期、一期耶，他們應該給到多少的時候，我們才付多少，所以不要用文字的錯覺讓人民以為我們已經拿到了，或者是我們都可以如期獲得，這是錯的！我再提醒一次，是我們把期程延長！像魚叉飛彈，它突然插進來，866億，現在有很多，如果連其他的再加進來，可能超過千億，可是它到現在還沒有辦法給我們！它延了10年！類似這樣的情況，如果川普再次當選，我們國防部可不可以強勢一點？你要有決心！你的決心要讓人民信任！因為如果你買的不是我們需要的，或者是我們無法如期如質獲得的，這樣大家其實會對我們整個的國防和軍事更失望！這一點國防部可以做到什麼程度？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員提醒。這當然是國人關心的事情，而且這是重大投資，所以在未來來講……"],["馬委員文君：敢不敢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：就如委員所說的……"],["馬委員文君：敢不敢跟美方多談判，提出我們的需求？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然！"],["馬委員文君：你的決心要讓大家看得到啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們的決心絕對是我們的防衛需求，絕對不是因為人家強制推銷給我們；一定是我們的需求！"],["馬委員文君：可是我們過去看到的好像都是人家強制推銷的。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這一點在未來來講，我們也會在立法院監督的情況之下跟委員報告，我們所有的防衛需求是依照臺灣的特殊環境來建設我們的戰力，絕對不會是因為人家今天強推給我，而且這也要經過委員會的同意啊！這個東西都是經過監督的，我想這一點我們絕對有強烈的決心！"],["馬委員文君：沒有、沒有，你說「經過監督」，這樣就會把責任推給立法院……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：不會、不會。報告委員，這個我們有計畫……"],["馬委員文君：我現在要說的是，川普如果當選，現在還不曉得，也有可能是賀錦麗當選總統，可是如果他們有這樣子的要求，我們希望我們的錢可以用在刀口上……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：絕對是！絕對是！"],["馬委員文君：現在已經要審預算了，我看還是有很多問題，可能後續大家還要討論。","今天部長也不在，我想要請教一下為什麼會做這樣的調整：機密的案子過去都會給我們所有委員一本相關的參考資料，今年不給的原因是什麼？不好意思，主席，我借一點點時間。"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，我是主計局局長……"],["馬委員文君：告訴我原因就好，為什麼過去、一直以來都有，今年突然沒有？"],["謝局長其賢：因為機密的摘要本它本身還是內含機密的資訊，我們依據國家機密保護法，有關機密的預算書表，都按照立法院的來文，在501會議室做陳列。"],["馬委員文君：那過去為什麼可以？"],["謝局長其賢：過去是因為以往曾經有委員要求說要提供摘要本，讓委員可以看到機密的一些建案的摘要內容，但是它本身還是有機密資訊，因為我們是核密單位……"],["馬委員文君：為什麼不可以看機密？因為我們在監督、審查的時候，本來就可以看啊！除非我們洩密嘛！從過去到現在，你最好把洩密查清楚！尤其是去年講得沸沸揚揚的洩密案，應該都要把它查清楚，趁這個機會！很可惜，調查權沒有通過！我們希望它可以通過，因為洩密是誰洩的？是立法委員嗎？你有查到嗎？副部長是空軍出身的，在今年的機密案裡面有一個C-130H的提升案，對不對？媒體早就把它報導出來了，包括你的金額、包括你的內容，寫得非常詳細、非常清楚，這個部分它怎麼洩出去的？為什麼立法委員不可以看？我想請教副部長，明年的機密案有幾件？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這個我們可以檢討，因為過去既然是那樣，為什麼今年改成這樣，我覺得我們主計局還要再思考一下。今天委員本來就有監督的權利，至於……"],["馬委員文君：不然下次我就考你們喔！就是你要把所有的統統記下來，不然我們光是去看一次，大家都可以記到金額，包括你的期程、包括你的內容，因為所有的資料都是用你們的案名、都是有另外取名字的，所以你叫大家去記，我們也可以反過來考你們吧！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["馬委員文君：如果你們建案的內容，或者是它跟過去有什麼關聯，自己都記不清楚……","我覺得你們為什麼做這樣的調整，包括我們現在的委員都是新的，你的案子，其實我們所有的機密案都不是一年完成，它都是延續性的，你突然都不給看，大家根本不知道你過去有什麼案子啊！你做得好不好、花了多少錢，未來是不是還應該要繼續這樣子做？大家不知道啊！你在掩蓋什麼呢？你可以給媒體披露出來，你不可以給應該監督的立法委員看？我們應該看你的錢怎麼花，你叫大家用背的嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這個部分，我下去再跟我們主計局討論，他的觀點是從哪裡，我再跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：不用跟我報告，你讓我們知道為什麼過去可以，現在不行？如果你要這樣子說的話，先把現在洩漏出去的所有洩密案，包括你們之前為什麼更改很多的案名，全部把它查出來，你必須要做一個交代以後，你才可以做這樣的調整好不好？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以給我們結果？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：一個禮拜。"],["馬委員文君：為什麼要一個禮拜？你為什麼做這樣的決定，為什麼要一個禮拜？我們又不是要……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們下去再檢討一下，再跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：禮拜五之前告訴我們，我們也希望我們很快的可以拿到。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，沒問題。"],["馬委員文君：不然你們所有的案子，我隨便抽查，你們就通通要記住，不然你沒有理由叫立法委員去背這些啊！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是，委員，我們下去跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156544","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156544","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7dbb4a7283b1a7fbcfec98f8113ce54f742e72fbbb48a4d1eec30ece9fadaa79bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:59:38 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會納入考論 支持 不得低於消費者物價指數年增率調整的幅度 或者是不得低於同業利潤同業利潤的平均加薪比例 會不會認同"},{"start":259.4,"end":262.202,"text":"這個我們來考慮一下因為它有點困難每一個行業不一樣啊所以本席特別提出啊你不得定消費者的物價指數年增率調整啊本席只是跟你討論是不是也將這個"},{"start":279.636,"end":292.199,"text":"納入討論的範圍,你是認同的?是是,我們納入討論了。好,那本期要請教,這個我非常感謝,也就是說,大家都知道,我非常的支持我們的中小企業,因為中小企業是佔了我們所有企業的98%,你的就業人數也將近有913萬2千人,中小企業的家屬是163萬,所以我們沒有理由不照顧他們,"},{"start":304.102,"end":310.827,"text":"照顧他們等於就是照顧到我們的基層員工所以剛剛所講的這三項也就是公書法的第235條之一我們行政部門認為必須要做整體性的去考量其中最重要的也就是員工酬勞以及他這個公司"},{"start":324.798,"end":342.446,"text":"所得利潤的一個比例那麼我們應該提出來做整體性的一個討論而且不得低於消費者物價指數年增率的一個調整或者是不得低於同業平均加薪的比例這一些都是得到"},{"start":343.887,"end":356.535,"text":"經濟部和國防會認同必須拿出來做檢討對不對那所以本席請教部長你們檢討多久時間你們可以有方案出來這個我們回去可能主要還是要跟經管會討論對對對沒關係你們大概有多久時間可以給我一個方案可以控制的範圍下來做"},{"start":362.279,"end":372.627,"text":"我想這個因為跨部門我想要三個月吧好 那麼我們就promise三個月的時間那麼你們將你們的方案提出那麼我們也會提出這個委員版的這個235條之一大家好好實務的來照顧我們真正的這個員工的低薪的問題那接下來本期要跟你討論的也就是中小企業我經常跟您說的這個數字告訴你98%"},{"start":390.06,"end":403.837,"text":"及企業佔比率,所以我們這些中小企業您更應該要支持他們綠電的獲得,是嗎?您點頭,所以因為之前您說過要給回答,我也很支持,請說明。"},{"start":405.659,"end":406.24,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":427.162,"end":427.462,"text":"因為中小企業的銷售額總額超過了28兆"},{"start":445.538,"end":450.859,"text":"他的占比超過了五成出口總額3.6兆所以在這種年增率每一年超過7%你看那台灣人我怕病所以政府更有責任也有義務要好好的照顧他們對不對因為他們是台灣經濟最重要的基礎的一個重要基石所以未來我們很重要的就是挑戰"},{"start":468.624,"end":488.296,"text":"這一個中小企業政府如何去輔導他們如何去輔導他們這個是非常重要那剛剛我們在前兩次呢本席也跟你討論也跟國防會主委討論過也就是112年去年第四季台電推動的相關適合中小企業他們有一個專案小額的綠電商品那麼他們的申請只有126家得標他的得標量只有643萬這個這個這個這個"},{"start":499.622,"end":523.207,"text":"那這樣的條件我們知道量不夠加速也不夠所以本期要請教你要怎麼樣去輔導我們整個中小企業可以獲得綠電那麼或許是結合我們整個中小企業的團體組織來合辦活動來發揮它的作效啊要不然你一年度只有126家得標那這個這個太少了啦太少了我們會改變形態改變形態那請教部長"},{"start":526.728,"end":545.852,"text":"滿足他們那改變形態你的方案要怎麼做方案我們都有討論啊都有討論什麼時候可以給本席我們要告訴我們的中小企業啊你這個數字拿出來112年拿出來不會看的啊難看啊我年底進行給你年底以前現在11月嘛那就在12月底以前拿出怎麼樣對我們中小企業協助綠電的方式來跟我們來好好的來討論對不對最後一分鐘好不好最後請教喔"},{"start":556.155,"end":571.694,"text":"臺電增資的問題如果依照以前累計的三千億現在要一千億的追加然後再一千億明年的工務預算等於五千億五千億如果除以兩千三百萬人您所號稱的動漲我們一屆"},{"start":574.457,"end":574.477,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時59分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請郭部長。"],["主席：經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。今天召委排了低薪的議題，關注青年跟基層，我非常的認同。我看到在專訪的紀錄裡頭，當你接任部長的時候你接受專訪，你曾經說你看到薪水嚇了一跳，怎麼那麼少啊！是不是少一個零，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是的喔！所以你最能夠了解我們整個低薪的狀態到底要怎麼去做，所以本席要跟你討論的是，我們臺灣目前面臨的貧富差距非常的大，尤其我們一定要支持我們的青年人，以及基層低薪的這個問題，政府有責任，一定要好好地去把它做規劃，因為這個會影響到整個留才的穩定性跟勞動力的一個條件，整個社會的公平跟產業競爭力這一些的面向，都必須由政府做整體性的多項因應方案，比如說研擬修正就業服務法，將薪資的部分來揭露，這個門檻由現行的4萬提升到5萬，也有研議將一定的薪資門檻納入在上市櫃的公司申請許可、核准、審核最重要的標準，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是說從源頭來做規劃，本席非常肯定這樣的態度，但是我要主張的是，更應該要關注到我們基層員工的心情，才不會像你拿到薪水單嚇了一跳，是不是少了一個零，所以我在這邊要請教，針對公司法第二百三十五條之一的條文要來進行修正，你們有沒有這個方向？也就是希望能夠達到真正幫助基層加薪的效果，你們有沒有這樣研擬？我也要請國發會主委一併上來回答，針對於公司法第二百三十五條之一的條文有沒有研擬？請教。"],["主席：國發會主委。"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們都會按照現行公司法的規定，在分派酬勞的時候來包括基層勞工……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是現行，但是不足以應對我們的基層，所以會不會修公司法第二百三十五條之一的條文，真正落實來照顧基層的心情？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會按照……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有這個預計？"],["郭部長智輝：我想委員的這個指導，我們會回去檢討一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你願意檢討嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我認為這很好，我們非常願意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我非常感謝，因為這個本席從上一屆就開始提案，我們這一屆也會提案再進來，但是只有委員的版本是不夠的，所以謝謝郭部長，你願意將公司法的第二百三十五條之一提出來討論，真正的怎麼樣落實在我們基層員工的薪資。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那我也請國發會主委，您的回答呢？您的立場？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：公司法是經濟部的權責，基本上我們會支持經濟部的決定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：支持？好！那我們實質來討論，部長，你是不是會納入公司應將章程明訂呢？以當年度獲利狀況的定額或者是比例來分配給員工的酬勞，以及調整基層員工的薪資，會納入考慮？"],["郭部長智輝：有，支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。不得低於消費者物價指數年增率調整的幅度，或者是不得低於同業利潤的平均加薪比例，會不會認同、納入考慮？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們來考慮一下，因為它有一點困難啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼困難？"],["郭部長智輝：每一個行業不一樣啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以本席特別提出，你不得低於消費者物價指數年增率調整啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們到底是要取中位數，還是要取下限……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，本席只是跟你討論，是不是也將這個納入討論的範圍？你是認同的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們納入討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那本席要請教，這個我非常感謝，大家都知道我非常支持我們的中小企業，因為中小企業占了我們所有企業的98%，就業人數也將近有913萬2,000人，中小企業的家數是163萬，所以我們沒有理由不照顧他們，照顧他們等於就是照顧到我們的基層員工，所以剛剛所講的這三項，也就是公司法的第二百三十五條之一，我們行政部門認為必須要做整體性的考量，其中最重要的也就是員工酬勞以及公司所得利潤的比例，我們應該提出來做整體性的討論，而且不得低於消費者物價指數年增率的調整，或者是不得低於同業平均加薪的比例，這一些都得到經濟部跟國發會認同，必須拿出來做檢討對不對？所以本席請教部長，你們檢討多久時間可以有方案出來？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們回去可能主要還是要跟金管會討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，沒關係，你們大概多久時間可以給我一個方案？"],["郭部長智輝：可以控制的範圍下來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可控，對。"],["郭部長智輝：我想這個因為是跨部門，我想要3個月。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那麼我們就promise 3個月的時間，你們將你們的方案提出，我們也會提出委員版的第二百三十五條之一，大家好好實務地來照顧我們員工的低薪問題。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要跟你討論的也是中小企業，我經常跟您說的這個數字，98%的企業占比率，所以對於我們這一些中小企業，您更應該支持他們獲得綠電是嗎？你點頭，因為之前您說過要給輝達，我也很支持……請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你搖手了，請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：100億度我剛才已經講過那是假的命題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：假的命題？"],["郭部長智輝：不是真的啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這要講清楚，部長，你是來自產業。"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才有跟那個委員……我們都有溝通過。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這不是真的，你也說明了。"],["郭部長智輝：輝達也跟我們證明了，它沒有要買這麼多的綠電。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那它要買多少？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，它就說講買多少是根據它的需求，但是沒有到100億度。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：根據它的需求，所以沒有到100億度？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以更應該支持我們中小企業的綠電。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：去輔導，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們所有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為中小企業的銷售總額超過了……"],["郭部長智輝：中華民國的企業我們都支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，超過了28兆，它的占比超過了五成，出口總額3.6兆，年增率每一年超過7%，你看我們臺灣人多努力，所以政府更有責任也有義務要好好照顧他們，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為他們是臺灣經濟最重要的基礎，是重要的基石，所以未來我們很重要的挑戰就是政府如何去輔導中小企業，這個是非常重要的。前兩次本席跟你討論過，也跟國發會主委討論過，就是112（去）年第四季台電推動的相關適合中小企業，他們有一個專案是小額的綠電商品，他們的申請只有126家得標，它的得標量只有643萬度綠電，這樣的條件我們知道量不夠、家數也不夠，所以本席要請教，你要怎麼樣去輔導我們整個中小企業可以獲得綠電，或許是結合我們整個中小企業的團體組織來合辦活動來發揮它的綜效，要不然你一年度只有126家得標，這個太少了啦！太少了。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會改變型態。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：改變型態？"],["郭部長智輝：對，要滿足他們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那請教部長，改變型態你的方案要怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：方案我們都有討論了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都有討論？什麼時候可以給本席？我們要告訴我們的中小企業啊！你這個數字拿出來，112年的拿出來不能看啊！難看啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我年底之前給你。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：年底以前？現在11月嘛！那就在12月底以前，拿出怎麼樣對我們中小企業協助綠電的方式來跟我們好好地來討論，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後1分鐘，好不好？最後請教台電增資的問題，如果依照以前累計的3,000億，現在要1,000億的追加，然後再1,000億明年的公務預算，等於是5,000億。5,000億如果除以2,300萬人，您所號稱的凍漲，我們醫界的診所、醫院凍漲，但是我們計算，如果以5,000億來算，2,300萬連嬰兒在內，每一個人要付兩萬多塊錢，所以在這樣的情況之下，本席一直在強調整個台電……部長，台電整個財務要怎麼做？您答應我的3個月內拿出來，我希望在年底可以看到你的方案好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我再次提醒，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，說到就做到，1分鐘就1分鐘，謝謝。列席的官員請回座。","下一位質詢請陳超明，陳超明委員質詢之後，我們再休息3分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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那我想說因為我們今天在講這部分那其實坦白說我對於你的那個直率發言我都把它認為是一個很企業界的一個方式那事實上比方說坦白說很多委員覺得你的發言當中的時候呢也許在部長這個角色當中可能還不夠的一個謹慎那我對你有期待所以我希望你"},{"start":183.436,"end":195.448,"text":"在承諾事情當中的時候不一定要這麼樣的直率包括說你當時承諾大家比方說如果補助台電的錢下來之後如果在"},{"start":197.553,"end":214.966,"text":"長電價你就要辭職下台坦白說大家也都在看你到底能夠撐多久那我想說這個部分我們之後有時間我們再往下走那因為你剛剛也特別提到在回答張家俊委員的時候你還提到說你也提到直接講說雲豹為了炒股講了不適合的話"},{"start":216.067,"end":216.728,"text":"因為他這個是6月的發言"},{"start":246.471,"end":263.742,"text":"所以所以現在不知道有沒有還有沒有這個這個可以勾結的這個所以你還會再繼續往下去要求金管會去做類似的動作嗎因為你剛剛回答的很具體嘛我沒有認為你是草率的發言我認為你是很直率很企業界的發言是"},{"start":267.044,"end":285.422,"text":"我們今天要特別講到低薪的問題因為我看了主計處的統計台灣的受僱勞工大概有800多萬人製造業大概300多萬服務業大概500多萬其中大概算是比較薪水好一點的製造業裡面大概只有ICT的產業"},{"start":286.844,"end":288.005,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":304.076,"end":328.471,"text":"低薪的人非常非常的多我給部長一個簡單的數字在製造業當中有大概200萬製造業勞工平均薪資都在中位數51.8萬元以下部長你知道這個數字嗎?是那麼在整個服務業裡面的時候很多的產業他們的平均薪資只比基本工資高大概1萬元左右你也知道這個數字對不對?是"},{"start":329.031,"end":347.646,"text":"OK那我想問因為我們整個立法院院中心提到我們國內心只有3D的一個現象第一個是國內生產GDP的分配給受僱人員比例低於每日韓這是第一D第二D的部分就是我們"},{"start":348.973,"end":364.222,"text":"低於平均薪資的勞工比例逐年增加這是第二低的部分第三低的部分是加薪的幅度低於通貨膨脹的一個幅度那這三低的部分的時候我想針對第一個部分就是"},{"start":365.143,"end":384.721,"text":"就是我們GDP當中分配給就是受僱者的一個比例我們用117年的數字跟107年的數字我們發現它是逐年的一個下降那麼針對這個部分的時候我想問一下部長你這邊有沒有具體的方式可以來逆轉這樣子的一個趨勢"},{"start":385.962,"end":402.903,"text":"報告委員 有 我們從兩個一個就是對企業從稅的部分來提高他有這個能力來加薪那這裡面重點就是說我們其實對這些比較小微的公司如果你加薪"},{"start":403.604,"end":418.396,"text":"如果你接受我們的輔導而賺錢你必須要加薪OK好那我想問一下因為我們中小企業發展條例36-2條的時候上半年的時候我們有修法執法什麼時候出來你沒有執法你沒有辦法真正去落實啊"},{"start":420.422,"end":446.848,"text":"報告委員,執法已經修好了,會在11月底開始11月底會正式實施,對不對?11月底11月底嘛,對不對?OK好,因為我在想說當我們修了中小企業發展條例36之2條之後我們需要讓它落實下來那我想問一下以目前符合我們中小企業發展條例36之2當中的時候我們中小企業163萬家當中有多少家可以適用?多少?"},{"start":450.631,"end":475.463,"text":"我講這個執法上面也會有名列部長我簡單跟你講一下因為我們目前有163萬家中小企業大概有30萬家是用查賬申報的方式有133萬家是用書審申報的方式只有用查賬申報的方式可以適用就表示我們有163萬家中小企業當中還有133萬家是沒辦法去適用這個部分的所以我本席希望經濟部這邊的時候針對"},{"start":478.644,"end":503.669,"text":"之後如果企業加薪應該要得到更多的一個鼓勵包括說政府的各項補助應該要把企業加薪當作參考的一個項目然後針對有研發創新抵稅的部分還有工業期進駐等等的部分都要把就是加薪當作經濟部在評估當中的一個要件可不可以是可以可以齁"},{"start":505.97,"end":517.917,"text":"謝謝部長那我想說針對這個低薪的部分我再問一個狀態中小企業白皮書你簽了這個續沒有?因為每年年底都有中小企業白皮書"},{"start":519.264,"end":544.188,"text":"已經同意了那準備要復印了所以你也已經簽了對不對因為中小企業那個按照2023年當中有一個很特殊的一個狀態就是因為他55歲以上的就業人口升高這是好事壯世代的發展這是好事可是對於受僱員工的平均月薪比前一年降低一千元降低一千元也就算了"},{"start":544.488,"end":544.688,"text":"政政前委員、部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時50分）主席好，我想請一下郭部長。"],["主席：請經濟部部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天我們談的是低薪的問題，但這跟低薪問題有關還是跟國營事業有關呢？因為大家剛剛都在關心國營事業的調度，我發現你在提到國營事業的時候，其實是你知道的，可是你要往上呈。所以我在想，是不是國營事業當中可能會有很多綠友友，其實你可能也管不了，所以你就只能扮演一個過場的角色，就讓該呈的往上呈，然後你也不太想去管這個事情？請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為我進來政府服務的時間比較短，所以我真的沒有辦法在短時間裡面了解所有的運作。關於國營人事的異動，這是有一定的制度在運作，而國營司的司長是它的主管單位……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，你從企業界來，在企業界也有一定的表現，所以我其實很期待，你在企業界的經驗能夠帶給經濟部一個不一樣的表現，在此我想問一個關於台鹽的問題，你知道台鹽持有台鹽綠能多少的股份？"],["郭部長智輝：60%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：只有60%嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：68%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那經濟部持有台鹽多少比例的股份？"],["郭部長智輝：將近40%。"],["鄭委員正鈐：38.8%。我想問一下，臺鹽綠能這一次被查出來有一個疑似弊案的狀態，前董座已經落跑、被通緝了，請問經濟部會損失多少錢？"],["郭部長智輝：我請國營司來回答這個問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，沒關係，其實你可以直接回答，這個部分就是檢調會去處理，這個我認同。我只是在想，在國營企業單位當中有這麼多綠友友狀態的時候，你這邊能夠發揮多少的影響力？我希望你針對原本企業界當中內稽內控的能力，在面對國營事業的時候，能夠好好的把它發揮出來，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的，我會根據委員的指示來進行。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。坦白說，我對於你的直率發言，我都認為這是一個很企業界的方式，很多委員覺得你的發言當中，也許就部長的角色來說可能還不夠謹慎，我對你有期待，所以我希望你在承諾事情的時候，不一定要這樣的直率，包括你當時承諾大家，補助台電的錢下來之後，如果再漲電價，你就要辭職下臺。坦白說，大家也都在看你到底能夠撐多久，這個部分我們之後有時間再來談。","剛剛你在回答張嘉郡委員時提到，你也直接說雲豹為了炒股，講了不適合的話，這是你剛剛直接講出來的，我直接把它記錄下來，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對！沒錯！這是我的看法。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你講了嘛！對不對？針對雲豹為了炒股，講了不適合的話，你會要求金管會針對雲豹這個不適當的動作去做一些相關的監督嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以在我們質詢之後，下午你就會要求金管會針對雲豹的不適當發言，去做一些相關的監督動作？"],["郭部長智輝：因為這個是6月的發言，所以現在不知道還有沒有可以勾稽的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你還會繼續往下去要求金管會做類似的動作嘛！畢竟你剛剛回答得很具體！"],["郭部長智輝：他們應該要……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我沒有認為你是草率的發言，我認為你是很直率、很企業界的發言。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，如果是這樣的話，我們就回到今天講到的低薪問題。我看了主計總處的統計，臺灣受僱勞工大概有八百多萬人，製造業大概三百多萬；服務業大概五百多萬。其中薪水比較好一點的，製造業裡面大概就只有ICT產業，大概有一百多萬人左右；服務業的部分，金融保險、證券、醫療保健、運輸倉儲就稍微高一點，大概也有一百多萬人，表示臺灣處在低薪的人非常非常的多。","我給部長一個簡單的數字，在製造業當中，有大概200萬製造業勞工，平均薪資都在中位數51.8萬元以下，部長，你知道這個數字嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在整個服務業裡面，很多的產業，他們的平均薪資只比基本工資高大概1萬元左右，你也知道這個數字，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想問的是，立法院預算中心提到我們國內薪資有三低的現象，第一個，國內生產GDP分配給受僱人員比例低於美日韓等國，這是第一低；第二低的部分是低於平均薪資的勞工比例逐年增加；第三低的部分是加薪的幅度低於通貨膨脹的幅度。針對這三低，以第一低有關GDP分配給受僱者的比例來看，111年的數字跟107年的數字比較，發現是逐年下降。針對這個部分，請問部長，你們有沒有具體的方式可以逆轉這樣的趨勢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，有，我們從兩個部分著手，一個是在企業方面，從稅的部分提高讓他們有能力加薪，這裡面重點就是對於一些比較小微的公司，如果你接受我們的輔導而賺錢，那你就必須要加薪。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我想問一下，上半年針對中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二我們有修法，請問子法什麼時候出來？沒有子法，就沒有辦法真正去落實。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，子法已經修好了，會在11月底開始。"],["鄭委員正鈐：11月底會正式實施，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：11月底。"],["鄭委員正鈐：11月底，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，當我們修了中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二後，我們就需要讓它能落實，請問，在我們163萬家中小企業中，有多少家可以適用修正後的中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二？"],["郭部長智輝：我想這個在子法上會明列，抱歉……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，我簡單跟你講一下，我們目前有163萬家中小企業，大概30萬家是用查帳申報方式；有133萬家是用書審申報方式；只有用查帳申報方式的可以適用，這表示163萬家中小企業當中，還有133萬家是沒辦法適用這個部分的。所以本席希望經濟部針對這個部分，之後如果企業有加薪，應該要得到更多的鼓勵，包括政府的各項補助，應該把企業加薪當作參考的項目之一，然後在研發、創新抵稅的部分，還有工業區進駐等等，都要把加薪當作經濟部評估的一個要件，可不可以？"],["郭部長智輝：是，可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以？好，謝謝部長。針對低薪的部分，我再請問一個狀態，因為每年年底都有中小企業白皮書，請問部長，中小企業白皮書你簽了序沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：已經同意了，準備要付印。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你已經簽了，對不對？其實2023年中有一個很特殊的狀態，就是55歲以上的就業人口升高，壯世代的發展，這是好事，可是受僱員工的平均月薪卻比前一年降低1,000元；降低1,000元也就算了，重點是他們的工時還多出了3.6個小時。針對這個部分，希望經濟部能給本席一份詳細的分析報告。"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員，部長請回座。","下一位質詢請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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洪文華局長我們今天想要來跟你討論的問題是我們其實有很多政府部會的公務員或者是公部門裡面的約聘僱其實常常每天他們都會開很多會議或包括做很多會議記錄那這些第一線的公務員其實他們包括個案的訪談或是這些會議記錄、訪談記錄"},{"start":35.862,"end":56.899,"text":"這些內容有的時候敏感有時候也不一定敏感但是裡面勢必都會有一些敏感的資訊在我們行政體系裡面所以我們其實我們也看到我們其實有很多公務體系的這個公務員或約聘戶協助做記錄他們常常會去使用這個錄音轉錄的這個文件的電子產品"},{"start":61.903,"end":87.385,"text":"那買這個來開會因為其實方便嘛那很快就可以把這個錄音把它轉成主持稿或者是即時的翻譯喔那但是我不知道局長清不清楚喔其實這些電子產品喔你如果要去使用的話其實你都需要連線到一個第三方的APP但現在大家發現這些很多第三方的應用程式喔"},{"start":89.229,"end":95.269,"text":"大部分都是中國的資訊業者所以我要問局長第一個問題"},{"start":96.638,"end":126.161,"text":"你覺得像我們裡面假如有一些會議裡面有這些敏感的資訊使用這類的產品你覺得有沒有一些國安上面的風險?風險確實是存在喔那事實上我們也利用各種的機會在提醒中制的APP它本身就存在治安的風險因為依照中共的相關的國安法規各個相關的軟體或企業必須要把他們所擁有的客戶的資訊要提供給相關的國安部門"},{"start":135.187,"end":155.182,"text":"其實這類的電子產品其實真的蠻好用的而且它價格很便宜所以我們其實有很多公務體系來說其實對它來講是很吸引人的就是說我買一個我就可以方便我工作很多但我想要跟局長講我們現在看到有一些看起來它可能是歐洲品牌"},{"start":157.304,"end":186.287,"text":"但是呢 這個電子設備它本身可能是歐洲品牌 它不是中國品牌喔但是它的第三方APP的公司呢 比方說像這個它是精華電子 深圳的精華電子那它的母公司 就是南京的熊貓電子南京熊貓電子的母公司 再是這個中國的電子信息那這當然是一家中國國務院獨資的公司"},{"start":188.112,"end":208.862,"text":"甚至我想這個局長已經清楚其實2020年當時有一個很這個國際上面非常非常大家都了解事件就是關於這個深圳的振華數據的這個事情那透過這個深圳的這一家中國的國有公司那做對很多明星、軍人、商人等等去做相關的監控當時就被發現了這樣的數據的資料"},{"start":211.923,"end":236.432,"text":"當然我們發現其實現在包括剛才講的金華數據跟這個振華其實他們的控制者是相同的所以就像我這邊想要說的事情是我自己覺得像我們現在看到的這個狀況我不知道國安局有沒有向我們相關部門在情收上面在情質上面做清楚的提供"},{"start":237.668,"end":264.58,"text":"這個部分我們比較關切的是剛跟委員報告的就是針對中置的這些自通訊產品或是APP的資安風險那來提出一些警示那事實上在上一屆的立法院也在這個問題上有很多的討論那因為涉及到規範的依據到底有沒有一個規範的依據來讓一般的民眾或公務員在選擇中置的APP有一個所謂的一個"},{"start":265.56,"end":281.833,"text":"法院的依據但是問題來了他是中資的APP可是產品本身不是中國品牌所以是歐洲品牌歐洲品牌去用了中國的APP就像剛才局長說用了中國的APP有可能資料會上傳會回傳"},{"start":285.959,"end":300.71,"text":"國安局有沒有針對這件事情向速發部或相關部會提出示警?上屆立法院林靜雯有做這樣的提案希望由國安局提醒速發部相關的問題"},{"start":303.672,"end":330.458,"text":"在會後後來就請我們的科技副局長跟蘇發部的次長針對這個問題有做相關的一個討論局長當然問題是我們之前當然我們有修了這個所謂各機關對危害國家自動安全產品限制使用原則對不對對只是這裡面我們的清單沒有公開嘛對不對如果我們按照這個使用原則來做管理的話局長你覺得我們管不管到剛才我們講這件事情"},{"start":331.567,"end":355.202,"text":"這可能還有涉及到各個部門之間相關的一個...你覺得管不管得到?不太...對管不到啊?對,可能不太容易因為我們在這邊第一個清單沒有公佈所以我們其實是讓這個使用原則他現在用的做法是說讓治安署透過跨部會的協調平台跟各機關溝通其他的內容是什麼我們外界其實也不知道"},{"start":356.65,"end":381.512,"text":"那剛剛在講的這個問題我們其實去了解了一下他可能只是要求針對大陸的品牌中國品牌禁止使用那這明顯就是一個洞啊我們剛才講局長也承認說這可能是有國安上面疑慮的問題精明資料可能會外洩被回傳的問題可是在這個使用原則裡面明顯管不到啊局長你覺得"},{"start":384.006,"end":401.835,"text":"對,這個問題我們來注意,因為依照那個自動安全法管理法,確實是公務機關不能夠使用中國大陸所製的這些自動產品,是有這樣的規範,可是委員剛剛特別提醒的是有外國的品牌去使用到中資的產品,那這部分在規範上確實有個模糊空間。"},{"start":402.475,"end":417.34,"text":"那局長你覺得你會來提醒我們這個說一步因為我當然今天說一步不在可是我自己是覺得說第一個大家會很困惑的點就是說我們現在報告這個清單沒有公開"},{"start":419.551,"end":447.053,"text":"到底這裡面喔 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像這個事情媒體報導說他要一百億度這個綠電我經過兩次的質詢我們的重點是在這邊的我看有某些立委或者某些媒體好像故意在扭曲化作重點了"},{"start":52.785,"end":69.122,"text":"只有兩個重點嘛前名希望他回來包括民進黨立委在這邊都拜託你啊要促成去他們的縣市設廠啊對不對是對那我們就盡量去幫他這是政府的責任而且是全民的期待第二個裡面牽扯到力電夠不夠嘛所以只有兩件事情"},{"start":70.54,"end":84.151,"text":"我那天就說你去聯絡他,他到底需要多少綠電,進度到哪裡嘛,對不對?我們把它做清楚,把它問清楚,做得好,目前都做了嘛,對不對?是,謝謝委員指導這個是雙贏,很好,那現在就繼續要幫忙他,他現在是要回來設廠,對不對?他綠電該買的也買了"},{"start":86.913,"end":110.778,"text":"至於剛剛講到什麼銀豹去炒股票我看你用很嚴厲的言辭譴責嘛我相信有人在炒股票全民都是譴責的好不好可是請不要有人話錯重點最重要的如果有媒體報導那本來我們就爭取他要回來的他到底有什麼困難有需要綠電本來就要把他查清楚我覺得經濟部到目前做得很好我們繼續努力接下來我要談一個最近非常熱門的"},{"start":112.858,"end":138.249,"text":"台研力電的掏空案也是一個很嚴重的一個弊案我要提醒部長的雖然現在國營事業都在換你看剛剛大家問你中友董事長的問題台研力能掏空案這個問題國營事業不要變成掏空連連特別是不要像台研力能變成詐騙集團這個非常要不得部長我先問你一個台研力能啊"},{"start":139.94,"end":157.89,"text":"他光是由他兒子去成立這個土地開發然後找了一堆綠油油他自己的廠商去成立了開發公司鴻輝國際跟兆陽開發勾結之後光是這兩家集中的土地開發說起了八億的暴利"},{"start":158.991,"end":182.827,"text":"另外,用這個指定廠商的方式,左手換右手,把我們國營事業的錢掏到利優惹的手上去,又是3億台元喔,國營事業喔,損失就11億人民的納稅錢損失11億,我要問你一條這件事情第一個,你們沒做行政處分第二個更重要的,怎麼避免國營事業的錢被掏空你有這上面注意,這是檢討的"},{"start":186.132,"end":213.941,"text":"這個回答這個委員的這個問題這個我們有沒有做行政處分我們是我們做調查的也送減掉了這個所以這個這個比行政處分更嚴厲所以跟委員報告這第一題第二題我們如果防止這個光電這個這樣的弊病再度產生的話這個行政院院長有交代我們經濟部、法務部、農業部"},{"start":216.072,"end":234.068,"text":"要成立一個平台公開、公正的來跟所有的廠商或者是所有的地主來做一些公開的協商所以任何的人都可以檢舉如果有再發生這個問題"},{"start":236.845,"end":263.562,"text":"行政院院長的指示就是絕不放寬、寬容這件事情不允許這個事情再度發生所以不允許再發生,第一個一定要防備嘛因為發生了就要檢討,包括剪掉產品那現在很重要的我這段時間接到很多的陳情我們的農漁民受到很大的傷害還有跟我們國營事業、台研的下包廠商、合作廠商喔"},{"start":266.902,"end":290.533,"text":"有些人都幾乎是破產了,那個是幾千萬的錢進去了我跟部長講一下他們陳情的內容第一個,臺原力能去跟我們農漁民還有這一些土地、這個地主一共簽了很多千年,都已經是7年前,很多是7年前或者最近7年以來簽的這個約結果因為臺原力能後來都沒有去開發,很多都沒有開發,或者開發到一半現在出現了兩個很大的問題"},{"start":292.352,"end":318.884,"text":"那些地主該拿到的錢也沒有拿到。第二個最可憐的,其實這兩件事最可憐的,就是臺南跟嘉義這些暗場,本來它是農漁民在那邊有養殖業嘛,現在也沒辦法,沒辦法,連生計都出問題了。所以這兩個,現在第一個,就是這個工程現在看起來好像變成爛尾樓,變成爛尾樓,所以有兩個部分現在要趕快去幫忙了,我請部長、經濟部要趕快去處理,就是這個工程一直延宕在那邊,"},{"start":320.063,"end":339.725,"text":"然後講他剩下的就是詐騙集團他自己跟人家開發完之後開發的一半就留在那邊了那龍一鳴自己本來以這個為生對不對大家看一下這上個圖來我們跳回去上個圖給部長看一下這就是我家的基地你看這本來是市區的地方喔結果現在你看蓋了一半就丟在那裡了電也沒有發電"},{"start":341.004,"end":354.083,"text":"第二、農業生技受影響地主也來埋怨你當初跟我這個租區的時候國營事業你要來租我的土地我們高興啊結果要兩工程才可以開發嘛沒有開發完他也在那邊了那那個工程的做了一半"},{"start":355.043,"end":357.344,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":384.744,"end":398.176,"text":"中鋼也是你管的?是對不對中鋼最近有一個很重要的案子這個是媒體最近在討論的你看起來現在啊離岸風電這個開發離岸風電開發現在不只台積電不願意買電喔因為太貴嘛對不對然後現在一度電是6塊錢所以現在政府想到一個辦法"},{"start":406.001,"end":431.611,"text":"我們自己要成立一個買電這個平臺現在政府找了中鋼、中華電信就是我們的國營事業這些換工股要去成立一個售電公司你要負責變成買電喔你明明外面一度賣6電就想整個地方買買政府你現在去那只有兩種結果嘛你買過來之後你自己用買6塊就是太貴了這是一個問題對不對第二種你要去賣電嘛"},{"start":433.252,"end":458.103,"text":"這個跟現在台電的狀況不是一樣你去外面買電買太貴回來以後你又有便利賣出去虧損就越來越大你怎麼解決這兩個問題報告委員這個部分我們是考慮到當初他們在綠電買賣一千要二十年二十年而且再買到一定的價格那對一些這個小的用綠電店戶也比較不公平"},{"start":458.863,"end":459.363,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":480.209,"end":489.873,"text":"我們就是比較低的價格來轉售這樣所以我們先下第一個我們結論第一個不能買太貴的你說一度六塊要去買然後講五塊都已經過高了台積電三塊多台積電就不買啊我們用台積電的標準你如果到時候買不能夠買比台積電去買的貴好不好這是第一個第一點台積電因為他是買"},{"start":505.858,"end":507.099,"text":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":523.223,"end":542.856,"text":"所以你畫一條線,你很清楚跟民眾講,你要去買電,你稅貴要再多少,不能夠比這個高我們當然是會讓這個,因為其實報告委員,他如果選舉他就不會買啊就不會買,現在就是因為人沒要買啊,現在政府要買,好第一個,所以我們下一個定論啦,不能買太貴,部長對不對"},{"start":544.557,"end":564.734,"text":"不能買太貴第一個你現在去考慮一下這會不會因為這樣子中鋼的錢中鋼要花比較多的錢這就是一種掏空喔賺到的錢是那些廠商對不對所以我們下兩個結論第一個不能買太貴第二個你現在回去檢討據我的了解是中鋼到目前他們都在抗拒嘛他們不願意嗎?中鋼要買嗎?"},{"start":566.156,"end":566.596,"text":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":583.258,"end":584.92,"text":"董事會通過同意的"},{"start":606.561,"end":612.344,"text":"臺電的基層員工在反映一個很重要的事情臺電的員工我們是肯定他們很辛苦很努力的可是他們講了兩個事情有沒有超時工作的問題第二個更重要的你知道嗎"},{"start":631.425,"end":642.351,"text":"當縣市長已經宣布說颱風了可是當地的處長喔臺電當地的處長如果沒有宣布他是加班的話他去搶休是沒有颱風天的這個假期你知道他們去爬颱風天去搶休的時候爬電線桿一個小時加多少錢"},{"start":650.374,"end":671.899,"text":"謝謝 明天還有議程 明天還可以問才105塊 這個真的太少了 又危險 錢又少所以第一個就是以後不要等處長宣布以後 以後早就採訪新市長宣布這是一個第二個 他們危險加急好不好 不要只有105塊要去幫他們好不好好 部長謝謝好 部長請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時39分）請郭智輝部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，輝達回臺灣設廠是全民的期待，我知道你也很努力，像這個事情，媒體報導說他要100億度綠電，經過我兩次的質詢，我們的重點是在這邊，我看有某些立委或者某些媒體好像故意扭曲、劃錯重點了，只有兩個重點嘛，全民希望他回來，包括民進黨立委在這邊都拜託你促成去他們的縣市設廠，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：對，那就儘量幫忙他們，這是政府的責任，而且是全民的期待；第二個，牽扯到綠電夠不夠嘛，所以只有兩件事情。我那天就說，你去聯絡他，他到底需要多少綠電，進度到哪裡，我們把他問清楚，做得好，目前都做了嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的指導。"],["張委員啓楷：對，這個是雙贏，很好。那現在就要繼續幫忙他，他現在要回來設廠，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：綠電該買的也買了，至於剛剛講到雲豹去炒股票，我看你用很嚴厲的言詞譴責。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["張委員啓楷：有人在炒股票，我相信全民都是譴責的，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：可是請不要劃錯重點。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：最重要的，如果有媒體報導，本來我們就爭取讓他回來，看他到底有什麼困難，需要綠電就把它查清楚，我覺得經濟部到目前做得很好。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：好，繼續努力。接下來我要談一個最近非常熱門的臺鹽綠電掏空案，也是一個很嚴重的弊案。我要提醒部長，雖然國營事業都在換，你看剛剛大家都在問你中油董事長的問題。關於臺鹽綠能掏空案，國營事業不要變成掏空連連，特別是不要像臺鹽綠能變成詐騙集團，這個非常要不得。","部長，我先問你一下，臺鹽綠能光是由他兒子去成立土地開發，然後找了一堆綠友友，他自己的廠商去成立了開發公司，鴻暉國際跟晁陽開發勾結之後，光是這兩家居中以土地開發收取了8億的暴利！另外還用指定廠商的方式，左手換右手，把國營事業逾3億的錢掏到綠友友的手上，臺鹽國營事業損失就11億，人民的納稅錢損失了11億。我要問你兩件事情，第一個，你們有沒有做行政處分？第二個更重要的，怎麼避免國營事業的錢被掏空？你有做什麼檢討？"],["郭部長智輝：我來回答委員這個問題，關於我們有沒有做行政處分，我們做了調查，也送檢調了，這個比行政處分更嚴厲，跟委員報告，這是第一題。第二題，我們如何防止光電這樣的弊病再度產生？行政院院長有交代經濟部、法務部、農業部要成立一個平臺，公開公正的跟所有廠商或者是所有地主公開協商，所以任何人都可以檢舉，如果再發生這個問題，依行政院院長指示絕不寬容，不允許這個事情再度發生。"],["張委員啓楷：不允許再度發生，第一個一定要防弊。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：已經發生了就要檢討，包括送檢調查明。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：現在還有一個很重要的，我這段時間接到很多陳情，農漁民受到很大的傷害，還有國營產業──臺鹽的下包廠商、合作廠商苦不堪言，有些人幾乎是破產了，那個是幾千萬的錢進去了。我跟部長講一下他們陳情的內容，第一個，臺鹽綠能跟農漁民還有一些土地的地主簽了很多契約，很多都已經是7年前簽的，或者是最近7年以來簽的。結果後來臺鹽綠能很多都沒有去開發，或者開發到一半，現在出現兩個很大的問題：那些地主該拿到的錢也沒有拿到；第二個，其實這件事情最可憐的就是臺南跟嘉義這些案場，本來他是農漁民，在那邊可能有養殖漁業，現在也沒辦法做，連生計都出問題了。所以現在這個工程看起來好像變成爛尾樓，現在這兩個部分需要趕快去幫忙的，我請部長、經濟部要趕快去處理。工程一直延宕，老實講，他們算是詐騙集團，他們跟人家開發了之後，開發一半就留在那邊，農漁民本來以這個為生，大家看一下，我跳回到上一個圖給部長看一下，這是我們嘉義義竹，那本來是養魚的地方，結果現在蓋了一半就丟在那裡，電也沒有發電，農漁民的生計就受了影響，地主也埋怨：當初國營事業要來租我的土地，我很高興啊！結果要兩公頃才可以開發，沒有開發完，它也在那邊了，工程做了一半都卡在那邊。有些人三、四千萬就丟在那裡，變成爛尾樓了，請經濟部趕快去幫他們好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，這個部分我們會趕快了解一下，看如何協助他們不遭受到更大的傷害。"],["張委員啓楷：不要讓那些工程變成爛尾樓，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：要去照顧他們。我再提下一個，現在的掏空不是只有臺鹽綠能被掏空喔，最近有一個很重要的事情，會不會變成拿國營事業的錢去補助賴友友？我們來看一下，中鋼也是你在管的，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：中鋼最近有一個很重要的案子，這個是媒體最近在討論的，對於離岸風電的開發，現在不只台積電不願意買電，因為太貴嘛，對不對？現在1度電6塊錢，所以政府想到一個辦法，政府自己成立一個買電的平臺。部長，你看一下，現在政府找了中鋼、中華電信，也就是國營事業這些泛官股要成立一個售電公司，你變成要負責買電喔，明明外面1度電賣6塊錢就太貴了，沒人要買了，政府現在去就只有兩種結果，你買過來之後你自己用，但買6塊太貴了，這是一個問題，對不對？第二種，你要去賣電嘛！這個跟台電現在的狀況不是一樣嗎？你去外面買電買太貴，回來以後你又便宜賣出去，虧損就越來越大，你怎麼解決這兩個問題？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分我們是考慮到當初他們在綠電買賣時，一簽就要20年，而且買到的是一定的價格，這對一些小的綠電用戶就比較不公平，它沒辦法一次就決定要買20年，所以我們成立這樣一個公司的目的，是在服務那個小的綠電用戶，讓它不會被人家綁住20年。","再來，我們成立的這個公司，是你欠多少、要多少，我就賣你多少；第二個，價格不可能高，我們就是用比較低的價格來轉售。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，它現在賣不出去，就是因為一度賣6塊，你說你要去買比較便宜的，你有把握買到的一定是便宜的？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以我們先下第一個結論，就是不能買太貴的，你說1度用6塊去買，老實講5塊都已經過高了，就算是3塊多，像台積電就不買啊！我們就用台積電的標準，到時候你去買的不能夠比台積電買的貴，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：台積電因為是買20年，所以是買了一個價格，那個是過去；現在我們能夠買的是114年以後的電，114年以後的電比110年的電大概貴了至少差不多五成。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你劃出一條線，很清楚的跟民眾講，你要去買電，最貴要在多少以下，不能夠比這個高。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果太貴了它就不會買了。"],["張委員啓楷：現在就是人家不想買，你說政府要去買，所以我們下一個定論，不能買太貴！然後你現在去考慮一下，會不會因為這樣子，中鋼要花比較多的錢？這就是一種掏空！賺到錢的是那些廠商，對不對？所以我們下兩個結論，第一個，不能買太貴；第二個，你現在回去檢討，就我的了解，中鋼到目前他們都在抗拒，他們願意嗎？中鋼要買嗎？第一個，不要買太貴；第二個，不要變成中鋼買到太貴，把我們人民的錢搬出去，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：絕對沒有這個現象，我可以在這個地方跟委員報告，它不可能買太貴……"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，而且中鋼是上市公司，要注意一個點，你要經過董事會同意，對於那些所有去買他們股票的人……"],["郭部長智輝：他們董事會通過同意的。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我再問另外一個問題……"],["主席：謝謝……"],["張委員啓楷：因為這個是牽扯到台電，我問一個重要的事情……"],["主席：張委員……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！抱歉！馬上好！馬上好！因為是一個低薪的問題，我只有談一個事情……"],["主席：一視同仁……"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我問一個問題，馬上好！因為颱風天……"],["主席：我要公正……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，馬上好！我們在颱風、救災的時候……"],["主席：我要對其他同仁公正，一視同仁。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！很多人都有超過一點點啊！我講很快！"],["主席：你超過最多！30秒！"],["張委員啓楷：我馬上問。台電基層員工在反映一個很重要的事情，前幾天颱風天，台電的員工，我們肯定他們是很辛苦、很努力的，可是他們講了兩個事情：第一個，有沒有超時工作的問題？第二個，更重要的，你知道嗎？當縣市長已經宣布放颱風假了，可是台電當地的處長如果沒有宣布他是可以加班的話，若他去搶修是沒有颱風天的加給……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問最簡單的，你知道他們颱風天去搶修的時候，爬電線桿一個小時會加多少錢？"],["主席：謝謝，明天還有議程，明天還可以問。"],["張委員啓楷：才105塊，部長，我跟你說，這個真的太少了，又危險，錢又少，所以第一個，以後不要等處長宣布，以後縣市長宣布就算數；第二個，他們的危險加給不要只有105塊……"],["主席：張委員，發言時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？謝謝部長。"],["主席：部長請回座，其他官員請回座。下一位質詢請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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有請國安局長我想先請問一下局長 台灣現在跟俄羅斯的關係應該是這幾年來最惡劣的時候吧"},{"start":21.088,"end":38.175,"text":"對,我們事實上在幾年前已經終止了跟俄國全面的貿易關係那另外在俄烏戰爭之後那也因為台灣基於價值理念提供烏克蘭很多的一個援助包括人道的援助那俄國對這方面的台灣的援助也有一些維持所以也把台灣列為不友好的國家"},{"start":39.954,"end":65.211,"text":"從美國彭博社這個禮拜的新聞報導有看到發現今年十月份的台灣石化工業進行創紀錄的俄羅斯的石腦油本席在根據經濟部的統計所以俄羅斯是現在台灣第三大煤炭的進口的來源國也是第六大天然氣進口的來源這說明了我們台灣對俄羅斯其實有一定的人員上面的依賴"},{"start":66.111,"end":84.294,"text":"再加上俄羅斯跟中國現在是所謂的全面戰略協作的合夥伴的關係,那是不是表示,俄羅斯如果配合中國對台灣實施制裁,那我們是不是可能會被中國禁止我們台灣的龍魚產品出口到中國?"},{"start":85.095,"end":104.79,"text":"對台灣的影響會更大呢?那國安局有沒有分析那俄羅斯在哪些狀況之下會減少甚至停止對台灣石化原料的供應那國安局內部的兵推有沒有做過這樣的想定呢?對,我們國安單位是有在提醒相關的公營或國營企業在進行相關的能源採購應該也要考慮到相關地緣政治的問題"},{"start":109.754,"end":112.596,"text":"希望國安局之後的兵推還是要繼續設想這種可能發生的想法"},{"start":133.868,"end":158.363,"text":"那接下來我再問一下就是北韓上個禮拜才試射一枚火星19的洲際的飛彈然後11月4號又朝東部的海域發射好幾枚的飛彈那從射程上面來看應該至少是中程彈道的飛彈洲際洲際這是洲際彈道飛彈對那請問一下那局長你認為北韓當局的政治的目的是什麼呢"},{"start":159.263,"end":186.842,"text":"對,委員剛有提到,就圖面上所顯示的就10月31號北韓發射的火星19型的洲際彈道飛彈那正如委員所提到的,這一次的飛彈它飛行的高度有到7600公里然後飛行的時間有到85分鐘那這是北韓所有歷史上測試的飛彈飛行的距離跟時間最長的一次那我們認為在這時間點,會有這個火星19飛彈的試射主要的目的有幾個部分,第一個部分"},{"start":187.022,"end":187.222,"text":"主席"},{"start":206.863,"end":221.537,"text":"希望美國在美韓聯合軍演應該要更所謂的減少那同時在對於北韓的制裁也應該要放鬆所以北韓是透過這些內外因素的評估那我們認為才會有這個美國大選階段的一個飛彈試射的一個動作"},{"start":223.109,"end":248.324,"text":"剛才說到了北韓的飛彈,那局長你有沒有發現,就是俄烏戰爭爆發之前,然後北韓有好幾年的時間,其實在長城飛彈上面的技術好像都是遇到了瓶頸,但是過去這一年中,北韓在發射的技術方面,無論是衛星還是長城的飛彈,失敗率好像都是大幅的下降,那是不是會印證俄羅斯可能有提供北韓飛彈技術上面的猜想呢?"},{"start":248.564,"end":265.951,"text":"有,這部分確實有這樣的一個關聯性那因為在過去這一年多的時間那經過雙方的一個互動在大概去年11月我們就注意到委員所講的北韓四射的導彈還有衛星火箭它的成功率有提高"},{"start":266.591,"end":279.665,"text":"我們相信這背後應該是由俄國在技術上提供的援助那這個過程當中除了北韓接收到俄國提供的火箭技術以外北韓也供應了非常多的砲彈給俄國在俄烏戰場來使用那從公開的資訊來看北韓已經運送大概有13000多個貨櫃"},{"start":284.85,"end":302.967,"text":"提供的都是軍需品給俄國．所以他們雙方基於這樣各取所需的情況之下．俄國提供北韓精元跟導彈技術．那北韓提供俄國相關的一個軍需用品．跟目前的士兵到俄國去．所以有看到雙方的戰略合作關係．似乎越來越緊密"},{"start":303.946,"end":331.641,"text":"如果是說照這樣的推測的話這樣俄羅斯用人員出口跟輸出飛彈的技術換取北韓的軍事的資源的話那中國的話也是私底下可能會提供俄羅斯資源加上我們觀察到中國這幾年有一個極音速的飛彈發展有一個突飛猛進的趨勢那我們一般會推測中國是不是用軍事資源的交換方面俄羅斯的飛彈的技術呢但是今年出的路透社的報導就是"},{"start":332.682,"end":354.131,"text":"俄羅斯前後也逮捕了好幾位極音數飛彈的相關的科學家,罪名大概都是跟洩漏資訊的機密給中國有關。那局長你認為中國的極音數飛彈這幾年突飛猛進,靠的是跟俄羅斯交換的技術還是偷他的技術還是中國自己的技術上面的突破呢?"},{"start":354.411,"end":354.851,"text":"謝謝局長,那我有請國防部副部長"},{"start":388.158,"end":388.361,"text":"早安好"},{"start":390.214,"end":417.431,"text":"副部長你知道最近我們台灣的國民都非常關注台灣與美國採購裝備上面的高效能反裝甲的飛彈的交付的進度所以今天本席想要請教一下副部長就是先前我們跟美國買的托式飛彈原本預定是6年前就要開始交貨了但是雖然載台的漢馬車已經完成交貨但為什麼飛彈拖到現在還是一旦未交呢是大約是要拖到什麼時候呢"},{"start":418.251,"end":436.425,"text":"各位我剛才已經 王委員 王朝偉剛才也問過了那因為我們在 美方在測試的時候最後出場的時候 試射的時候他有很多系統上的瑕疵 所以他重新組合了那美方也保證在今年 年底之前會把所有的彈都運送到台灣"},{"start":437.813,"end":456.767,"text":"因為我記得顧部長在5個月前他就已經說過說今年年底一定會完成嘛是完成全部的交貨對但是拖到現在我覺得說因為現在已經11月了是還交不出來然後可能又好像現在是11月然後如果真的按承諾如果交是不是有剩下"},{"start":457.648,"end":485.299,"text":"你看我們現在總共是要交1700枚嘛然後這樣的話如果是說現在都還沒有交出來還是現在已經交多少枚了呢那真的可以你這樣分析你覺得真的可以順利完成交貨嗎?幫委員這個因為美方的保證我想我也相信他們因為基於我們雙方的默契我這邊不做贅述但是我相信在今年年底我們Toros-2B的這個廢彈會全速運到台灣"},{"start":486.521,"end":511.568,"text":"那請國防部就是一定要緊追著我們後續的裝備的交付的進度因為如果裝備的交付有一些拖延的問題的話是不是請國防部要主動的積極的爭取也要主動的揭露因為不要那麼被動因為不要每次都是我們發現然後我們一直在追然後其實主動揭露的話其實對國軍的形象反而是有加分的因為主動揭露的話是不是也表示你國防部對裝備採購這是一個負責任的態度"},{"start":515.029,"end":530.632,"text":"那國防部做得到嗎?報委員我想軍售的部分因為牽扯到我們在合約的管理上的問題那有時候揭露這件事情我們有時候在合約上管理上來講還是必須尊重那至於說進度的揭露我們也希望讓透明化讓國人知道因為是公開預算我們當然希望我們主動會告訴國人那我想這個也是提醒美方我相信不只是我們"},{"start":544.454,"end":569.489,"text":"委員在美國參訪的時候也了解就是說這個進度他們也想趕上來但是委員去了以後我相信進度會更快為什麼因為督促的管道非常多那包含我們今天在駐美軍事代表團他會時時刻刻定到那個進度那我們國防部的管制他是非常嚴謹的所以委員你去參訪完了以後發現到這一進度事實上有很多的關卡在罷官"},{"start":570.109,"end":591.897,"text":"那至於說如何去揭露我想公共訊息的發布我們也會討論未來跟美方在軍售上來講我們去協商如何做不是只有我發布我認為在軍售國來講美方也應該共同跟我來發布這個訊息為什麼他會落後的原因我想原廠他也必須要說明這個是對一個國際的軍售的保證我想這個都是我們在未來"},{"start":593.377,"end":608.607,"text":"在委員提醒之下我們如何去精進我們在這個交受進度上管制上來講如何去跟美方去配合來辦理謝謝委員提醒因為這是美國對台灣的軍售延遲交付的狀況真的是蠻嚴重的啦所以我還是想說我們應該"},{"start":609.207,"end":609.247,"text":"﹚林憶君﹚"},{"start":624.457,"end":627.037,"text":"海軍目前有沒有下一代主力的作戰艦的規劃呢?而且之前蔡英文總統也提出12項國艦國造的計畫,這個會不會完成呢?還是政策有沒有調整呢?"},{"start":653.035,"end":666.643,"text":"這個是我們海軍在既定的新型型防艦新一代型防艦事實上來講它是非常成功的那我們後續有後續艦的第二批的這個建設那同樣的防空型和反潛型的我們原型艦也在115年會做出來這些都蠻"},{"start":670.785,"end":696.11,"text":"我相信我們海軍在未來規劃上來講因應這個我們未來的這個敵情的威脅他會持續在建案那這對我們在未來的戰力上來講是有所提升我想這個都是海軍在未來來講他們都很有在系統上規劃我們也核定了他們未來的造艦計劃我想這個是既定的計劃都在依照我們的進度的計劃裡面來執行"},{"start":698.299,"end":718.456,"text":"據我了解12項的國建國造的計畫的核心除了潛艦之外最重要的應該就是政海計畫跟下一代的主力艦但是聽說中科院研發的雷達跟作戰的系統似乎又達不到要求所以挪動了整個原預算降階去做了輕型的"},{"start":719.116,"end":721.898,"text":"那請教一下副部長,就是國防部這樣的計畫到底是什麼呢?是放棄了升級海軍作戰艦了嗎?還是放棄了補給線呢?準備讓共軍來封鎖台灣了呢?"},{"start":745.23,"end":766.332,"text":"當然不是。包括我想我們的艦艇的配置,重型的一級艦、二級艦、三級艦,都是有它的所有計畫管制的其成。那輕型巡防艦只是因應我們現代的灰色地帶衝突的洗腦增加了,加上海巡的戰力,那我們如何來做搭配,因為輕型巡防艦是要"},{"start":767.273,"end":767.733,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請國安局局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：召委好。"],["林委員憶君：先請問局長，臺灣現在跟俄羅斯的關係應該是這幾年來最惡劣的時候吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，事實上我們在幾年前已經終止跟俄國全面的貿易關係，另外，在俄烏戰爭之後，也因為臺灣基於價值理念提供烏克蘭很多的援助，包括人道援助，俄國對臺灣這方面的援助也有一些微詞，所以也把臺灣列為不友好的國家。"],["林委員憶君：從美國彭博社這個禮拜的新聞報導看到，今年10月份臺灣石化工業自俄羅斯進口創紀錄的石油腦，本席根據經濟部統計，俄羅斯是現在臺灣第三大煤炭進口來源國，也是第六大天然氣進口來源國，這說明了臺灣對俄羅斯其實有一定能源上面的依賴，再加上俄羅斯跟中國現在是所謂的全面戰略協作夥伴關係，是不是表示俄羅斯如果配合中國對臺灣實施制裁，是不是可能會比被中國禁止臺灣的農漁產品出口到中國，對臺灣的影響會更大呢？國安局有沒有分析？俄羅斯在哪些狀況之下會減少，甚至停止對臺灣石化原料的供應？國安局內部的兵推有沒有做過這樣的想定呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們國安單位是有提醒相關的公營或國營企業在進行相關的能源採購，應該也要考慮到相關地緣政治的問題，不過我們初步的理解是，有一些契約可能之前就已經簽訂了，這個部分可能還有契約相關法律的評估。另外一方面就是民間企業，怎麼樣約制民間企業可能有這樣的合作行為，也是另外一個評估的重點。"],["林委員憶君：那很好，希望國安局之後的兵推還是要繼續設想這種可能發生的想定。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：接下來，北韓上個禮拜才試射一枚火星─19洲際飛彈，11月4日又朝東部海域發射好幾枚飛彈，從射程上面來看，應該至少是中程彈道飛彈。"],["蔡局長明彥：洲際，這一次是洲際彈道飛彈。"],["林委員憶君：請問局長，你認為北韓當局的政治目的是什麼呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員剛剛有提到，圖片上所顯示的就是10月31日北韓發射的火星─19型洲際彈道飛彈，正如委員所提到的，這一次飛彈的飛行高度有到7,600公里，飛行的時間有到85分鐘，這是北韓歷史上所有測試的飛彈飛行距離及時間最長的一次。我們認為在這個時間點會有火星─19飛彈的試射，主要的目的有幾個部分，第一個部分當然就是在鞏固北韓內部的團結跟內聚力。第二部分就是在對外的部分，希望在美國大選期間來展示，讓美國知道北韓已經擁有這種核導的地位，也就是核武跟導彈的能力。同時在美國新政府上臺之後，可以以這個當籌碼，希望美國在美韓聯合軍演應該要更減少，同時在對於北韓的制裁也應該要放鬆，所以北韓是透過這些內外因素的評估，我們認為才會有美國大選階段的飛彈試射動作。"],["林委員憶君：剛才說到了北韓的飛彈，局長，你有沒有發現俄烏戰爭爆發之前，其實北韓有好幾年時間在長程飛彈上面的技術好像都遇到了瓶頸，但是過去這一年中，北韓在發射技術方面，無論是衛星還是長程飛彈，失敗率好像都大幅下降，這是不是印證俄羅斯可能有提供北韓飛彈技術上面的猜想呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分確實有這樣的一個關聯性，因為在過去這一年多的時間，經過雙方的互動，大概在去年10月、11月我們就有注意到委員所講的，北韓試射的導彈及衛星火箭的成功率有提高，我們相信這背後應該是有俄國在技術上提供援助。在這個過程當中，除了北韓接受俄國提供的火箭技術以外，北韓也供應了非常多的砲彈給俄國，在俄烏戰場來使用，而且從公開的資訊來看，北韓已經運送大概一萬三千多個貨櫃，都是提供軍需品給俄國，所以他們雙方基於各取所需的情況之下，俄國提供北韓金援及導彈技術，北韓提供俄國相關的軍需用品和目前的士兵到俄國去，所以有看到雙方的戰略合作關係似乎越來越緊密。"],["林委員憶君：如果按照這樣的推測，俄羅斯用能源出口和輸出飛彈的技術換取北韓的軍事支援，中國私底下可能也會提供俄羅斯支援，加上我們觀察到中國這幾年有極音速飛彈，發展有突飛猛進的趨勢，我們一般會推測中國是不是用軍事支援交換俄羅斯的飛彈技術呢？但是今年初路透社報導，俄羅斯前後也逮捕了好幾位極音速飛彈的相關科學家，罪名大概都是跟洩漏機密資訊給中國有關。局長，你認為中國的極音速飛彈這幾年突飛猛進，靠的是跟俄羅斯交換技術還是偷它的技術，還是中國自己技術上面的突破呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該都有，因為中國對於極音速導彈的發展非常的重視，所以他們跟俄國在軍事合作的部分，也都有提到相關一些科技交換的合作，但是俄國也希望能夠控制比較高度機敏的技術，所以才造成雙方一邊合作，但又彼此有一些猜忌跟提防，出現委員剛剛所描述的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝局長。有請國防部副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：召委好。"],["林委員憶君：副部長，你知道最近我們臺灣的國民都非常關注，臺灣與美國採購裝備上面的高效能反裝甲飛彈的交付進度，所以今天本席想要請教一下副部長，先前我們跟美國買的拖式飛彈，原本預定是6年前就要開始交貨了，雖然載臺的悍馬車已經完成交貨，但為什麼飛彈拖到現在還是一彈未交呢？大約是要拖到什麼時候呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，王召委剛剛也問過了，因為美方在測試的時候、最後出廠的時候、試射的時候，它有很多系統上的瑕疵，所以它重新組合了，美方也保證在今年年底之前會把所有的彈都運送到臺灣。"],["林委員憶君：我記得顧部長在5個月前就已經說過，今年年底一定會完成全部交貨，但是拖到現在，我覺得因為現在已經11月了，還交不出來，如果真的按承諾，是不是有剩下……你看，我們現在總共是要交1,700枚嘛！這樣的話，如果現在都還沒有交出來，還是現在已經交多少枚了呢？這樣分析，你覺得真的可以順利完成交貨嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，因為美方的保證，我想我也相信他們，基於我們雙方的默契，我這邊不做贅述，但是我相信在今年年底，TOW-2B的飛彈會全數運到臺灣。"],["林委員憶君：好，請國防部一定要緊追著後續裝備的交付進度，因為如果裝備的交付有一些拖延的問題的話，是不是請國防或要主動積極的爭取，也要主動的揭露，不要那麼被動，不要每次都是我們發現，然後我們一直在追，其實主動揭露的話，對國軍的形象反而是有加分的，主動揭露的話，是不是也表示國防部對裝備採購是一個負責任的態度，國防部做得到嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想軍售的部分因為牽扯到我們在合約管理上的問題，有時候揭露這件事情，在合約上、管理上來講，還是必須尊重……"],["林委員憶君：對，我說的是進度，因為我們……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：至於說進度的揭露，我們也希望透明化，讓國人知道，因為是公開預算，我們當然希望主動告訴國人，我想這個也是提醒美方，我相信不只是我們，委員在美國參訪的時候也了解，他們也想趕上來這個進度，但是委員去了以後，我相信進度會更快，為什麼？因為督促的管道非常多，包含我們今天駐美軍事代表團，它會時時刻刻盯這個進度，我們國防部的管制是非常嚴謹的，所以委員你去參訪完了以後，會發現到這些進度事實上有很多的關卡在把關。至於說如何去揭露，我想公共訊息的發布，我們也會討論，未來跟美方在軍售上來講，我們去協商如何做……不是只有我發布，我認為在軍售國來講，美方也應該共同跟我發布這個訊息，為什麼它會落後的原因，我想原廠也必須要說明，這個是對國際軍售的保證，我想這個都是在委員的提醒之下，未來我們在交售進度上、管制上來講，如何去精進、如何去跟美方配合來辦理，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員憶君：因為美國對臺灣軍售延遲交付的狀況，真的是蠻嚴重的，所以我才想說我們應該要持續跟美方爭取加快交付的進度。","再來，我再詢問一下副部長，有關海軍後續艦艇的議題，海軍輕型巡防艦防空型還有反潛型前天才開始安放在龍骨，看來進度好像還蠻順利的。但是國防部還有印象，本席在上個月質詢的時候，曾經有提到一級艦普遍都已經太老舊的問題，本席想要請教副部長，海軍目前有沒有下一代主力的作戰艦的規劃呢？而且之前蔡英文總統也提出12項國艦國造的計畫，這個會不會完成，還是政策有沒有調整呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這個是我們海軍既定的新型巡防艦、新一代巡防艦，事實上來講它是非常成功的，我們後續也有後續艦第二批的建設，同樣的防空型和反潛型我們原型艦也在115年會做出來，這些都蠻合乎我們的要求和進度，我相信海軍在未來規劃上來講，因應我們未來敵情的威脅，它會持續在建案，這對我們在未來的戰力上來講，是有所提升的，未來海軍都有在系統上規劃，國防部也核定了他們未來的造艦計畫，我想這個是既定的計畫，都依照我們進度的計畫來執行。"],["林委員憶君：因為據我了解，12項國艦國造計畫的核心，除了潛艦之外，最重要的應該就是震海計畫跟下一代的主力艦，但是聽說中科院研發的雷達跟作戰系統，似乎又達不到要求，所以挪動了整個原預算，降階去做了輕型的巡防艦，問題是國防部如果想要用輕型的巡防艦去面對這種高強度的作戰，這樣是不是會有點太勉強了？是不是等於原本戰力空缺的問題還是存在呢？請教一下副部長，國防部這樣的計畫到底是什麼呢？是放棄了升級海軍作戰艦了嗎？還是放棄了補給線，準備讓共軍來封鎖臺灣了呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：當然不是，報告委員，我想我們艦艇的配置，重型的一級艦、二級艦、三級艦，都是有它的計畫管制期程，那輕型巡防艦只是因應我們現在灰色地帶衝突的襲擾增加了，加上海巡的戰力，我們如何來做搭配，因為輕型巡防艦是要能夠快速機動去對應這樣的灰色地帶衝突，輕型巡防艦有它的必要性，所以在這樣的調配情況下，我們未來所有艦艇的發展是用大型艦，一級艦、二級艦、三級艦來做調配，包含掃獵雷艦或者是佈雷艦，這些都是在整體規劃裡面，所以我們並沒有因為這樣子而忽略了造艦的計畫。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員，副部長請回，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：待會徐巧芯委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","接下來我們請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156535","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156535","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7df70bab6db189b79c080dcbcec04735dda2450328f9194eb47aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:16:43 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不是但是那一個指標現在有沒有我們風險要怎麼做評估然後才可以一方面他本來就要盡他這個當兵的義務但是我們也要守護我們的國家安全我們的機密資料"},{"start":412.053,"end":413.774,"text":"人事事現在對這件事情有沒有什麼處理?"},{"start":429.681,"end":457.063,"text":"所謂像類似這樣子的一個教育的方式的話是不是回國來擔任這個服兵役的這個要件這在法律上來講我們是必須要支持這樣的兵役的制度你不能說因為我讀了什麼我就不能夠大家都跑去那邊去讀書都不用服兵役了那當然不行但風險指標來管控的話第一個我們在進來的時候我們會對人員的考核也就是說你接觸的方式過去你"},{"start":457.904,"end":474.905,"text":"曾經在這個不管是你所謂的七大這個學校裡面在讀書的時候你所接觸到層面是如何這是第一個在風險管控第二個我們會去看你的教育狀況也會去檢查這也是風險的管控和你的聯絡的方式哪些人聯絡的方式"},{"start":475.586,"end":496.962,"text":"那最重要的是說第三個我們在派訓的時候呢一定不會派到機敏單位那他是屬於一個什麼勤務補充我舉例來講比如說這113年我們有17個這樣子的人出現那事實上來講有6位他是服補充兵就是12天的補充兵他已經除役了那事實上我們在這過程當中發現他並沒有異狀那還有11位現在是服4個月的"},{"start":503.367,"end":520.139,"text":"7個已經服完兵役了那事實上我們在這過程當中我們也會從旁來觀察這樣子的一個條件的學生加入到我們部隊行列的時候重視他不接觸機敏他有沒有不當的聯繫的關係那我想這些都是我們在軍隊中風險管控應該要做的謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":523.421,"end":549.026,"text":"對齁那因為剛剛有講到一些數字啦是那我希望因為這個可能我覺得不要公開但是譬如說過往數字大概多少然後過往的一些決定的標準以及因為這個我們就是滾動式嘛是那我們也不用直接把標準告訴他們不然大家都跑去念直接學校了是是是那所以就是說過往然後從現在開始我們會不會有新列什麼標準大概譬如說人事這邊能不能夠即使是用機密的方式都沒有關係是不是看能夠在多長的時間能夠給一份報告"},{"start":550.506,"end":556.388,"text":"好沒問題委員我想我們人事室他本來就已經有做這樣子風險評估我們大概一個月好不好是的沒問題是那接下來是跟這個國安比較相關的請國安局局長謝謝"},{"start":571.813,"end":590.245,"text":"局長好 這個是我剛好這一陣子在這個經濟委員會的時候所遇到的一個問題就是說因為之前新聞報導說台積電這個AI相關的這個晶片流過去流過去經過了一些白手套那白手套最主要是那個算能科技那算能科技在中國那邊是屬於比特大陸"},{"start":591.906,"end":619.463,"text":"當時算能科技在台灣其實它有另外一家公司但後來當然就是被查了被查了之後看起來重複的人員又跑到算能科技那我們後來才發現不管是華為、比特大陸跟算能科技它完全不在我們目前的實體的這個制裁清單上面它不在經濟部、國貿署上面的清單理由是因為當時我們的清單想跟著美國走結果我們跟著美國走的時候呢因為美國制裁華為非常的早"},{"start":620.163,"end":637.018,"text":"我們這邊清單並沒有同步做更新我們在詢問的過程當中他們說他們三個月會更新一次下次會滾動性考量因為到我說真的華為、彼特大陸跟算能科技這個對我們來講絕對是非常嚴重的一望即知但是他們也有說國安單位有一些別的考量"},{"start":637.759,"end":659.972,"text":"所以我這邊想問一下就是以現在來說因為他們想要更新這個可能是過往的事情他可能有詢問國安單位那時候是不是局長搞不好都不是但總之那時候國安單位是比較保守的一個態度但現在因為如果經濟部在用這樣的一個理由說這個如果說我們可能還是要問一下國安局還是要問一下陸委會所以在這邊反而是想要問局長對於這件事情的態度大概為何"},{"start":660.891,"end":683.375,"text":"對基本上我們對於高科技的管制那當然都會從國安的角度來認為說政府應該要建立起一個完整的清單以及相關的管制機制那目前的一個管制清單主要是包括聯合國跟美國提供的相關的廠商的名單再由業管單位經濟部這邊召開跨部會的會議來進行研討哪些企業該放到這個管制清單上面去"},{"start":683.855,"end":706.204,"text":"就國安局的角度來講,我們會參與相關的討論當然會從嚴把關來針對這些管制的一些項目來提供我們的意見我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員在說明事實上從2021年到現在為止我們所啟動查查的相關中共竊密攬財的相關案子已經超過100件那100件當中有42件應該已經都遭到檢方的起訴"},{"start":707.945,"end":731.038,"text":"所以我們會持續的來針對中共可能透過各種的空殼公司還有其他的協力公司在台灣進行簽名或攬財也會同時來注意所以一方面加強科技的出口的一個管制那另一方面也必須要來查查不同的個案中共是透過怎麼樣的一個管道來對我們的高科技的人才進行拉攏或是針對一些高科技的產品來進行間接的一個採購"},{"start":732.278,"end":756.215,"text":"謝謝局長因為這件事情比如說彼特大陸這個他已經發生了那華為是比較早期的但是基本上他跟中國的關係太深了所以在這邊的希望國安單位能夠給經濟不好的建議那不然的話他們兩手一攤說有可能有別的建議到時候並沒有把這個放入實體清單也包含像現在淘寶到處在下廣告都可能會有這些竊取個資等等相關的問題希望國安單位一併考量那因為時間到了剩下的我就下次再詢問謝謝局長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":327,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時16分）謝謝主席，我先請國防部副部長，還有人事參謀次長室的次長。"],["主席：請副部長。"],["沈委員伯洋：副部長好。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為剛剛財政委員會發生很多事情，副部長應該知道另外一位副部長也去財政委員會那邊。現在我們討論這些事情的意義已經變得很侷限了，為什麼呢？就是因為如果按照剛剛國民黨硬推的財劃法通過的話，國防部最嚴重的狀況可以影響到兩千九百多億的預算，這兩千九百多億的預算就包含作業的維持費、軍事的採購，這些全部都不用了，我們現在在這邊討論這些事情可能都已經變得沒有意義，國防部直接廢一半，所以我很痛心。","本來今天是有機會，因為我在禮拜一強烈地要求財政委員會一定要讓國防部在場，理由是國防部很有可能是被砍最多預算的單位。藍白在對外媒說明的時候，一直在講說他們絕對不會動國防預算，也說什麼潛艦他們不會去搞，結果現在直接從財劃法把中央的預算拿掉，國防部其實現在就可以準備收一收了，所以我覺得這是一件非常嚴重的事情，也希望在接下來這一個月之內會進入朝野協商，我們很需要國防部強烈地表達這樣的意見。我們今天不能當散財童子，每一個縣市都給100億、200億，然後國防部直接少了兩千九百多億，這樣國家現在就不用守護了，所以我覺得這件事情真的非常地嚴重。今天部長不在，但是副部長列席，我覺得一樣，因為畢竟兩位副部長針對預算的部分特別地熟悉，所以如果財委會還能夠正常做的話，希望能夠表達這樣的意見。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員，我想國防預算象徵了我們防衛自主的決心，如果對國防預算刪減了，對於我們來講，尤其國際上宣示自我防衛的決心是不夠的，所以我們建議在這樣的情況下，應該把國防預算要列入優先考量，不應該刪減國防預算，因為我們曉得，每一天中共灰色地帶的衝突圍繞著臺灣周邊，是非常嚴峻的挑戰，如果我們在現在的國防預算規模都略顯不足的情況下，還要再刪減的話，要如何應對中共對我們灰色地帶的襲擾和衝突？我想未來我們全體國人都應該要考量，國防預算不能刪減，於此同時，我們如果要展現自我防衛決心，國防預算應該是要逐年成長，這樣對我們在中共這樣子強大的壓力情況之下，這也是我們對它展現自我防衛決心、deterrence的戰力表現，我想這個是非常重要的。我們也籲請在所有財劃法修法的過程當中，應該要考量國防這樣的處境，也希望確保國防預算能夠保留。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝副部長。今天的財委會是常次出席，但他根本就沒有發言的機會，今天連陳其邁市長都來了，也都沒有發言的機會，但無論如何，也希望能夠讓我們的士兵、讓我們的官兵知道這件事，因為他們首當其衝。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：他們現在不了解這件事情，如果今天這件事情真的發生了，過了1個月，朝野協商之後，如果真的暴力通過的話，國防真的是首當其衝。首當其衝的結果是，我們剛剛講的作業維持跟軍備不是少，是作業維持跟軍備可以完全沒有、一毛不剩喔，這個對現在國防的運作應該是非常大的打擊，所以一定要有一些對案，這是非常重要的。","另外，因為今天時間的關係，我想問一下跟國安有關的問題，可能就要請人事參謀來回答。我有兩件事，第一個事情就是，這個是比較久以前的事情了，大概幾個月前，這件事情是他已經除籍，已經沒有臺灣籍了，他其實3歲的時候入籍臺灣，但之後就在中國長大，他在中國長大的，已經沒有臺灣籍了，但最後他回到臺灣的時候還是去當兵，我覺得這個不是國防部直接決定的事情，應該是內政部役政司、陸委會等等之類的做了這樣的決定，這個我覺得OK，內政部那邊我們會再去詢問他們對這種事情的風險評估是什麼，因為畢竟我們不會認為今天只要是臺灣人，然後在中國長大，其實這個基數滿多的，他們在中國長大，不代表他們今天一定會被中國滲透，也有可能他在那邊長大，反而更了解中國的問題，但問題是他一定會有一些風險指標，有這些風險指標的話，國防部要怎麼評估就變得非常重要，這個我不會直接問。","我要問的是下一個問題，就是如果今天他在臺灣的戶籍是沒有除籍的，按照內政部現在這樣的說法，他在臺灣的戶籍也還在，但是在中國那邊長大，他回來，要當兵。針對這件事情，因為我們有收到相關的公文，我不會把公文放在這個上面，但是這個時候，內政部就會有一些疑問，比如他今天如果在中國念的是西北工業大學、哈爾濱工業大學或者南京理工大學，這些被認為跟解放軍的關係是比較密切的大學。在簡報左邊這邊，我列的是這些大學有些是直接被美國列入實體制裁的清單，現在這個對我們來講，就會稍微有點不一樣了。雖然他有可能了解中國的問題，但是因為他的家人可能在中國，再加上他念的大學跟解放軍關係密切，他回到臺灣之後，內政部役政司可能就會來問國防部，他念了這個特殊的大學，是不是優先應該去空軍？這個時候人事就必須要做回答。我們看到現在的回答是比較簡單的、比較簡略的，沒有一個風險評估的指標。所以我想問一下，因為像這樣的事情可能會層出不窮，我們也不是說他們不能當兵，不是，但是那個指標現在有沒有？風險要怎麼做評估？一方面他本來就要盡他當兵的義務，但是我們也要守護我們的國家安全、我們的機密資料，不知道人事參謀次長室現在對這件事情有沒有什麼處理？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我可以回答你。這個問題事實上來講，嚴重來看，它是我們未來風險管控的手段，而且不是只有在中國大陸，如果他接觸到所謂類似這樣子的教育方式的話，是不是要作為回國服兵役的要件考量，在法律上來講，我們必須要支持這樣的兵役制度，不能因為他讀了什麼，就不能夠……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，當兵還是要當。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：這樣大家都跑去那邊讀書，都不用服兵役了，那當然不行。但風險指標來管控的話，第一個，在人員進來的時候，我們會進行對人員的考核，也就是你接觸的方式，過去你曾經在不管是所謂的七大學校讀書，你所接觸到層面是如何，這是第一個風險管控。第二個，我們會去看你的交友狀況，也會去檢查，這也是風險的管控，和你的聯絡的方式、跟哪些人聯絡的方式。最重要的是，第三個，我們在派訓的時候，一定不會派到機敏單位，他是屬於勤務補充，舉例來講，比如113年我們有17個這樣子的人出現，事實上來講有6位是服補充兵，就是12天的補充兵，他已經除役了，我們在這過程當中也發現他並沒有異狀，還有11位現在是服4個月的，其中7個已經服完兵役了。我們在這過程當中也會從旁觀察這樣子條件的學生，加入到我們部隊行列的時候，縱使他不接觸機敏，他有沒有不當的聯繫關係，這些都是我們在軍隊中風險管控應該要做的，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛有講到一些數字，我覺得這個可能不要公開，但是譬如過往數字大概多少，以及過往的一些決定標準，因為我們就是滾動式調整，所以我們也不用直接把標準告訴他們，不然大家都跑去念這些學校了。所以從現在開始我們會不會新增列什麼標準，即使是用機密的方式都沒有關係，人事能夠在多長的時間內提供一份報告？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，沒問題，委員，我們人事室本來就已經有做這樣的風險評估。"],["沈委員伯洋：大概一個月好不好？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，沒問題。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來是跟這個國安比較相關的，請國安局局長，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：局長好。這是我剛好這一陣子在經濟委員會所遇到的問題，因為之前新聞報導台積電AI相關的晶片流過去，流過去經過了一些白手套，白手套最主要是算能科技，算能科技在中國是屬於比特大陸。當時算能科技在臺灣其實有另外一家公司，但後來當然就是被查了，但是被查了之後看起來重複的人員又跑到算能科技，我們後來才發現，不管是華為、比特大陸或算能科技，都完全不在我們目前實體的制裁清單上面，他們不在經濟部國貿署上面的清單，理由是因為當時我們的清單想跟著美國走，結果我們跟著美國走的時候，而美國制裁華為的時間非常早，但是我們這邊的清單並沒有同步更新。我們在詢問的過程當中，他們說3個月會更新一次，下次會滾動性考量，但我說真的華為、比特大陸或算能科技，對我們來講絕對是非常嚴重的，這個一望即知。但是他們也有說國安單位有一些別的考量，所以我想問一下，以現在來說，因為他們想要更新可能是過往的事情，也可能有詢問過國安單位，那時候是不是局長，搞不好都不是，總之那時候國安單位是比較保守的態度，但現在如果經濟部再用這樣的理由來說：我們可能還是要問一下國安局，還是要問一下陸委會。所以我在這邊反而想要問局長，對於這件事情的態度大概為何？"],["蔡局長明彥：基本上，我們對於高科技的管制，當然從國安的角度來講，我們都認為政府應該要建立起一個完整的清單以及相關的管制機制，目前的管制清單主要是包括聯合國及美國提供的相關廠商名單，再由業管單位經濟部這邊召開跨部會的會議來進行研討，哪些企業該放到這個管制的清單上面。就國安局的角度來講，我們會參與相關的討論，當然我們會從嚴把關並針對這些管制的項目提供我們的意見。我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員說明過，事實上，從2021年到現在為止，我們所啟動查察的中共竊密、攬才的相關案子已經超過100件，這100件當中有42件應該已經都遭到檢方起訴，所以我們會持續的針對中共可能透過各種的空殼公司，還有其他的協力公司在臺灣進行竊密或攬才，也會同時注意。一方面加強科技的出口管制，另一方面也必須要查察不同的個案，中共是透過什麼樣的管道來對我們的高科技人才進行拉攏，或是針對一些高科技產品進行間接的採購。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝局長。因為這件事情譬如比特大陸已經發生了，華為是比較早期的，但是基本上，它跟中國的關係太深了，所以希望國安單位能夠給經濟部好的建議，不然他們兩手一攤說有可能有別的建議，到時候並沒有把這個放入實體清單，包含像現在淘寶到處在下廣告，都可能會有這些竊取個資等等相關的問題，我都希望國安單位能一併考量。因為時間到了，剩下的我就下次再詢問，謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來注意，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，局長請回。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋代）：接下來有請林憶君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d2a087c8c84ec02f6ec98f8113ce54f74a2450328f9194eb4b0ca6921d57b82b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:19:12 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這個齁我是根據我的這個專業第二個我認為啦齁這個是看這件事情要專家才有辦法來判斷那怎麼說呢所以我比較好奇的是你是不是被騙了還是被逼的沒有 我不被騙也不被逼這個都是我個人的這個這個理論基礎跟我個人的經驗"},{"start":463.454,"end":485.711,"text":"來做出來的這樣的建議部長本席曾聽您說過說可以不要做官所以本席在這裡呼籲你既然有這種guards說可以不要做官但千萬不能被框去背黑鍋我們有選擇要做對的事情對國家社會有意義的事情這一句話我留在這裡希望你要深思啊"},{"start":486.391,"end":503.542,"text":"那另外呢您又提起說要把我國的這個低階封裝高耗能的石化這個鋼鐵業移到菲律賓請問一下這個參與呂宋走廊這件事情你有跟其他部會溝通過嗎 有跟石化產業溝通過嗎"},{"start":505.538,"end":517.59,"text":"我們現在在進行可行性評估,可行性可以進行了,我們就開始進行產業的...所以你們可行性評估沒有過,你們就決定核定投資1062億喔?"},{"start":520.748,"end":534.032,"text":"你們在蔡英文總統卸任的最後一週通過中油新四清投資案為什麼這麼急?連你都不知道原因吧?合訂了1062億那個是在高雄喔我的資料上面寫說是要去投資呂宋島麻煩你們送詳細的資料給我 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時間6加2好 謝謝召委 請國部長 經濟部 國部長好 部長 我先請教一下 這個輝達說要船採購綠電100億度 這個後來應該沒有這件事情吧"},{"start":31.274,"end":39.445,"text":"回答採購這個一百億度綠電的這個計畫是假的命題所以是假訊息嘛對不對是被炒作了六天"},{"start":41.175,"end":62.479,"text":"就是從10月29號這個有被立委詢問之後到11月4號經濟部11月3號經濟部去確認過之後並沒有這樣計畫而部長還因為這件事情還做了很多的說明是的所以我們只是還是要再一次的去提醒部長那你有什麼看法"},{"start":64.531,"end":87.651,"text":"這個我認為提質詢的委員也沒有錯因為這個事實上這個一百億度由輝達採購的這個事情是由某個廠商他為了炒作股票然後他發布的這個訊息所以委員我認為他也沒有錯只是我就這個命題去了解"},{"start":88.792,"end":104.397,"text":"我們如果跟輝達之間啊這個大的世界大的這個客戶我們之間都有聯繫的所以所有的世界的大的廠商要來台灣投資水跟電充分的滿足他們的需求是經濟部的責任我要講一下是我認為有問題啦"},{"start":106.618,"end":128.405,"text":"第二你剛剛都已經講過有人要炒作嘛有人要炒作股價的時候那這個時候還有立委配合來做這件事情的炒作沒有查證清楚就問這就已經不恰當了啊部長在這個第一時間我都認為你當時的詢答可能都要再更謹慎一點因為有可能你的詢答變成了大家全部都在跟著配合在做炒作我說那幾天可能全部被的炒作那"},{"start":128.985,"end":149.263,"text":"等到了經濟部在確認完經過了五天到六天才確認完事實上我建議部長未來遇到這種的不確定性高度敏感的問題的時候其實應該先保留一下啦因為你到底你也不知是真是假那結果被配合了炒作的時候反倒會造成了這個很大的一些影響而導致經濟部在過了五天六天才去查證我認為這個其實並不恰當"},{"start":152.326,"end":170.079,"text":"報告委員我想是這個樣子我是非常明確的知道所以我才回答他經濟部的公告是我們為了得到大家可以認可的資料所以我們再一次發文給回答請他正式的回應我們所以才差了五天這樣"},{"start":171.239,"end":195.276,"text":"對,所以我的意思說,未來像這樣的事情其實都具有高度的敏感性的問題的時候我認為其實部長可能必須要再更謹慎處理是,謝謝委員知道再來另外,我問一下啦齁,前陣子我看這個臺電的鄭董事長有講到要微調民生電價,部長你有提到沒有要漲,這個確定嗎?報告委員,我想這個調整電價的部分還是這個電價,這個審議委員在決定啦"},{"start":199.138,"end":214.225,"text":"所以這個臺電的董事長也好或者我們在說明都不應該講調整或不調整這個調整電價是這個電價委員、審議委員他們的這個我都同意部長這樣一個說法"},{"start":215.525,"end":238.702,"text":"我認為電價的調漲與否有很多專業性的考量也有電價的小組那一塊要尊重那一套制度另外是它也會牽動到整個物價的波動電基本上是物價波動所以我認為這個都是一個很知識體大的事情那都不應該輕易的由官員的口中去做出一些我認為這個但連董事長有那樣的期待我是沒有講是因為有"},{"start":239.322,"end":256.882,"text":"有媒體問我我說就環境來講這個還是要這個審議委員他們同意嘛所以我說我覺得部長這樣的答覆是OK的但是臺電董事長有期待這也能理解啦但是我只是說在這樣的處理上面還是要小心回去以後會要求臺電董事長不要輕易發言"},{"start":257.883,"end":282.597,"text":"這樣的問題都要敏感、謹慎、小心有可能都會造成一些不必要的困擾再來我問一下啦那接下來的中油的董事長、方董事長上任就說他的油電要漲他的油要漲啦部長你支持嗎這個因為他有一套機制他必須要根據那個機制去運作不能夠私自去解釋那個運作的這個方式"},{"start":283.696,"end":299.414,"text":"我還是要再次的提醒所有東西都有一套機制在進行一套機制在走那任何的這樣的東西都可能造成到整個光訊息的出來就造成整個市場上的一些波動了每一個我認為所有的不管是從部長到董事長"},{"start":299.935,"end":318.642,"text":"都必須要在更謹言慎行這件事情因為你出來之後還要這個帶物價穩定向政院報告沒錯啊當然是要跟物價要整體思考啊過去產生的油電雙漲對於整個人民對整個物價的影響是多麼大如果你有確定要做的也不是用這樣的方式進行嘛"},{"start":318.962,"end":347.789,"text":"那更何況最後可能都不會動但是有可能這些訊息一出來的時候都已經造成了相當大的一些波動所以我還是希望部長包括也跟所有的這些呃國共營事業的董事長要再三的提醒好不好政策思考清楚了決定怎麼動再來講臺水也一直很希望漲啊但臺水董事長就知道這短期內有困難嘛就是說所有台所說的這些事情都還是希望要謹言慎行它對每一個的物價對每一個整個人民的觀感都會有相當大的影響"},{"start":350.249,"end":370.154,"text":"再邀請教一下部長,在大寧埔遷村安置的計畫書裡面其實有很具體的提到右側這邊寫到對關懷戶延長到12年,一般戶延長到6年這個部分那過去經濟部想要跟內政部來協調,但是有遇到一些困難那既然已經在我們的計畫書裡面已經直接寫明要做了"},{"start":370.754,"end":392.711,"text":"部長,如果內政部那邊涉宅他的遊戲規則沒辦法進行的時候,是不是就經濟部自己來自辦,就不要再拖延這整個的時間?這個我們再找內政部來討論。你們今早內政部討論過了啦,內政部其實有意見啦,內政部認為他涉宅的制度,他照他制度,他延長他認為有困擾。是,我們努力跟內政部來溝通。"},{"start":394.428,"end":411.293,"text":"給我一個時間兩個禮拜內做出一個決定好不好如果內政部沒辦法答應你的條件的話那就請經濟部自辦可以嗎?因為你的計畫書裡面寫得非常清楚你的計畫書都已經寫在上面了如果內政部無法協助你辦理那經濟部就自辦嘛現在開始準備自辦嘛"},{"start":411.713,"end":434.505,"text":"我想在法令的許可之內呢,我們會來...兩個禮拜內給我們具體的答案好不好?如果內政部無法辦,經濟部自辦,部長可以嗎?經濟部事辦,這個我要請示我說的是,這個是由行政院經濟部核定的計畫我再跟部長確認一次,如果內政部沒有要配合,經濟部自辦,可以嗎?"},{"start":435.683,"end":446.668,"text":"我們來努力看看不是努力看看,你的計畫書上就是這麼要求的但是我們的計畫書上面必須要內政部能夠同意啦他希望內政部做,但是內政部不做的時候就是經濟部要做嘛這個計畫書上面已經寫了嘛"},{"start":450.794,"end":455.456,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":474.738,"end":500.737,"text":"目前已經公告了公告對那月底前來進行環評請部長跟環保署這邊再行溝通好不好環境部長好不好月底前要來進行環評的說明好嗎月底前我記住這個部長那也請你到大林埔來親自跟鄉親們說明好嗎月底這個環評的說明他明天要求部長到歷任的部長每次都到王美花部長、沈無寧部長都到現場部長自己親自來好嗎"},{"start":502.117,"end":522.387,"text":"我把時間這個調整一下月底親自來跟鄉親們說明這件事情好嗎報告委員我月底可能有公務行程在國外那就挪你可以的時間來好嗎可以嗎好不好配合你的時間配合環保環保署跟你的時間親自來到現場說明好不好部長等你喔大臨部等你謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時10分）謝謝召委。請郭部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我先請教一下，輝達說要在臺採購100億度綠電，後來應該沒有這件事情吧？"],["郭部長智輝：輝達採購100億度綠電這個計畫是假的命題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以是假訊息，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是！"],["賴委員瑞隆：被炒作了6天！從10月29號被立委詢問，到11月3號經濟部去確認過之後，並沒有這樣的計畫。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長還因為這件事情做了很多的說明。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我們還是要再次去提醒，部長，那你有什麼看法？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為提質詢的委員也沒有錯啦，事實上由輝達採購100億度綠電這件事情，是由某個廠商為了炒作股票，然後它發布的訊息。所以我認為委員也沒有錯，只是我就這個命題去瞭解，我們跟輝達、跟世界大的客戶之間都有聯繫，世界所有大的廠商要來臺灣投資，提供水跟電，充分地滿足他們的需求，是經濟部的責任。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我打斷你是因為我要講一下，我認為這有問題，第一個，你剛剛都已經講過了有人要炒作嘛！當有人要炒作股價的時候，還有立委配合來做這件事情的炒作，沒有查證清楚就提問，這就已經不恰當了。部長在第一時間，我都認為你當時的詢答可能都要再更謹慎一點，因為有可能你的詢答變成大家都跟著配合在炒作，我說那幾天可能全部配合炒作，等到經濟部經過了5天到6天才確認完。事實上，我建議部長未來遇到這種不確定性、高度敏感的問題時，其實應該先保留一下，你也不知道是真是假，結果配合炒作之後，反倒會造成很大的影響，而導致經濟部再過了5天、6天才去查證，我認為其實並不恰當。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想是這個樣子，我是非常明確地知道，所以我才回答他。經濟部的公告是我們為了得到大家可以認可的資料，所以我們再一次發文給輝達，請它正式回應我們，所以才差了5天。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，我的意思是未來像這樣的事情，其實都具有高度敏感性的問題，我認為部長可能必須要再更謹慎處理，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外我問一下，前陣子我看台電的曾董事長有講到要微調民生電價。部長，你有提到沒有要漲，這個確定嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我想調整電價的部分，還是由電價審議委員在決定。所以台電的董事長也好，或者我們在說明時，都不應該講調整或不調整，調整電價是由電價審議委員他們處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我都同意部長這樣的說法，我認為電價調漲與否有很多專業性的考量，也有電價小組那一塊，要尊重那一套制度。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，它也會牽動到整個物價波動，電價基本上會影響物價波動，我認為這個都是一個茲事體大的事情，都不應該輕易由官員口中去做出一些說明。當然，台電董事長有那樣的期待……"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有講，是因為有媒體問我，我說就目前來講，這個還是要審議委員他們同意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我說，我覺得部長這樣的答復是OK的，但是台電董事長有期待，這也能理解，我只是說在處理上面還是要小心啦，對於……"],["郭部長智輝：我們回去以後會要求台電董事長不要輕易發言。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這樣的問題都要謹慎、敏感、小心，有可能都會造成一些不必要的困擾。"],["郭部長智輝：是！"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我問一下，接下來的中油方董事長上任就說他的油要漲，部長，你支持嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為這個有一套機制，他必須要根據那個機制去運作，不能夠私自去解釋那個運作的方式。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是要再次地提醒，所有東西都有一套機制在進行，按照那一套機制在走。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：任何這樣的東西都有可能會造成影響，光訊息出來，就會造成整個市場上的波動了。我認為所有的人，不管是從部長到董事長，都必須要再更謹言慎行這件事情。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為你說出來之後，還要待物價穩定，向政院報告，沒錯啊！當然是要跟物價進行整體思考啊！過去的油電雙漲，對於人民及整個物價的影響是多麼大？如果你有確定要做了，也不是用這樣的方式進行！更何況最後可能都不會動，但是有可能這些訊息一出來的時候，都已經造成了相當大的一些波動。所以我還是希望部長，包括也跟所有國公營事業的董事長要再三提醒，好不好？政策思考清楚了，決定怎麼動，再來講。台水也一直很希望漲啊！但台水董事長就知道在短期內有困難。所以我才說這些事情還是希望要謹言慎行，對於每一個物價、對於人民的觀感都會有相當大地影響，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我請教一下啦！部長，在大林蒲遷村安置計畫書裡面，其實有很具體地提到，在右側這邊有寫到了，對於關懷戶延長到12年，一般戶延長到6年。過去經濟部想要跟內政部來協調，但是有遇到一些困難，既然已經在我們的計畫書裡面直接寫明要做了，如果內政部的社宅有其遊戲規則，沒辦法進行的時候，是不是就由經濟部自己來自辦，就不要再拖延整個時間？"],["郭部長智輝：我們再找內政部來討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們已經找內政部討論過了，內政部其實有意見啦！內政部認為要照社宅的制度，它認為延長有困擾。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們努力跟內政部來溝通。"],["賴委員瑞隆：給我一個時間，兩個禮拜內做出決定好不好？如果內政部沒辦法答應你的條件，就請經濟部自辦，可以嗎？因為你的計畫書裡面寫得非常清楚，你的計畫書都已經寫在上面了，如果內政部無法協助你辦理，那經濟部就自辦，現在開始準備自辦！"],["郭部長智輝：我想在法令的許可之內，我們會來……"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩個禮拜內給我們具體的答案好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：兩個禮拜內……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果內政部無法辦，經濟部自辦，部長，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部自辦，這個我要請示。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這是由行政院、經濟部核定的計畫，我再跟部長確認一次，如果內政部沒有要配合，經濟部自辦，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們來努力看看。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不是努力看看，你的計畫書上就是這麼要求。"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們的計畫書上面也必須要內政部能夠同意啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：它希望內政部做，但是內政部不做的時候就是經濟部要做，這個計畫書上面已經寫了！部長可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們還是要行政院許可啦，我想……"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然要行政院許可，但是如果不行的話，我希望部長兩個禮拜給我。如果不行，請經濟部自辦，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我來跟行政院報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。再來，有關大林蒲遷村的整個環評跟都計，環評什麼時候來進行？"],["郭部長智輝：目前已經公告了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：公告，對。月底前要進行環評，請部長跟環境部這邊再行溝通，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：月底前要來進行環評的說明，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，月底前，我記住這個時間。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，那也請你到大林蒲來親自跟鄉親們說明好嗎？月底這個環評的說明，他們要求部長到，歷任的部長每次都到，王美花部長、沈榮津部長都到現場，部長，自己親自來好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我把時間調整一下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：月底親自來跟鄉親們說明這件事情好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我月底可能有公務行程在國外。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那就挪你可以的時間來好嗎？可以嗎？好不好？配合你的時間，配合環保署跟你的時間，親自來到現場說明，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，等你，大林蒲等你。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回座。謝謝賴委員非常精確的質詢。","下一位質詢請張嘉郡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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在台灣已經跳出來為什麼我們有足夠的經濟我們有足夠的防衛能量我們可以扮演角色所以接下來我們就要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色我們看到中俄朝在軍事上面的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來浮上台面還有資源的交換那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本包含美國"},{"start":495.494,"end":518.309,"text":"這些資源的交換這些情報的分享這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣?有,事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密那有些因為是情報合作關係沒有辦法公開來討論但基本上在合作的議題上對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊還有複合式的威脅台灣站在第一線"},{"start":519.129,"end":520.17,"text":"臺灣累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享。"},{"start":542.372,"end":542.452,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":572.913,"end":573.173,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":589.213,"end":616.013,"text":"這才是我們必須要釋放出的分享的情報 比如說這個中國最近在南海哪一個地方可能是對於我國的這個我們已經實質擁有的主權的這個島的部分他是怎麼樣影響之外甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡有影響到比如說越南有影響到比如說菲律賓我們的敘事框架必須要一致我們的利害必須要一致"},{"start":616.713,"end":637.97,"text":"跟我們價值相關的我們繼續推動價值外交沒有問題跟我們價值不一樣的我們用地緣政治的外交去講跟我們價值跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的我們就可以更進一步比方說我們剛剛提到說怎麼樣得到最新式的這個裝備我們一直在講說灰色青老我們能不能跟這個海巡這個裝備能不能快速的有效的應對"},{"start":638.891,"end":657.308,"text":"那現在去製造的話可能需要5年10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制但如果沒有辦法的話是不是可以討論租借的可能性目前我們記得這個烏克蘭的租借法後有美藝園在提到台灣的租借法有沒有提到相關的現在的進展是怎麼樣有沒有相關的這樣的情報"},{"start":657.888,"end":674.043,"text":"對,我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作那我們當然是廣結善緣不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作那我們自己有我們自己的強項那其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方那透過這樣的一個合作來建立起一種比較互補"},{"start":674.884,"end":674.904,"text":"謝謝局長"},{"start":704.253,"end":728.438,"text":"這個我必須強調說他們的能力增加的時候我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話那就是快速的跟我們你說理念相近的國家跟我們價值相近國家利害相近國家跟他們不管是用租界或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要那最後我還是要強調一下最近中共的西松東井的戰略最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化那有些人是這一個"},{"start":729.958,"end":732.2,"text":"主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重所以特別在"},{"start":757.021,"end":780.974,"text":"這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係所以我是擔心說他把這些相關的這個軍事支援他可能會移到這個東部甚至是台灣這我們來注意這我們來注意那有這樣的消息我們就是盡量來反映給其他的這些部委跟委員說明一下中印的邊境的問題他是結構的他現在只是在管理並沒有辦法根本的解決非常好"},{"start":781.694,"end":798.58,"text":"這是結構的問題那我必須強調那我們跟印度之間的這個關係更是要重視因為就算他是百分之百中立的狀況也會讓中國有所忌憚那這就是 deterrence 這就是戰略的這個嚇阻因為他們必須還是要把資源"},{"start":799.54,"end":799.74,"text":"陳冠廷 陳冠廷"},{"start":827.517,"end":827.597,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":849.855,"end":850.055,"text":"我們繼續來努力,謝偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時1分）我們請局長。"],["主席：請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長好。局長，上個月底已經傳出北韓有派兵赴俄羅斯跟烏克蘭邊境開始協助作戰，好像說有一萬多人，在我看來，北韓跟俄羅斯的軍事合作已經到了實質派兵的這個階段，有沒有注意到北韓跟俄羅斯在1號的時候，雙方的外長進行了會談，會談的內容大概涉及什麼樣的軍事合作？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這兩個國家的合作，因為在6月就已經簽署了他們的戰略夥伴關係的條約，我沒有記錯的話，俄國國會應該在9月份也通過了這個條約，顯示他們的合作進入到一個新的階段，包括在軍事技術上的，還有北韓對於俄烏戰場在砲彈的供應上面的，以及這一次士兵投入到俄烏的戰場，都變成是他們合作架構裡面非常重要的具體行為。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，他們裡面有講到，締約方之一遭到侵略的時候，必須互相提供軍事協助，這個您也有掌握嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：換言之，萬一北韓跟南韓之間有衝突的話，俄羅斯也有義務要提出協助。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員在討論這件事。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，所以是有可能嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有可能。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以現在的整個局勢就是東亞不是只有東亞，歐洲不是只有歐洲，伊朗中東也不是只有中東，所有的盤勢全部都結合在一起，我們可以這樣去認知他們嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有高度的連動性。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果有這樣的連動性的話，我們就必須要評估，未來在臺海之間，或者是在日本海，或者是在南海，我們看到俄羅斯的存在性或是威脅性提高的可能，是不是也是相應的增加？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：都是相應的增加嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想要請教的是，目前北韓跟俄羅斯之間的軍事協同狀態是怎麼樣？北韓軍隊的表現是怎麼樣？俄羅斯的指揮跟北韓之間的契合狀況是怎麼樣？他們是表現得好，表現得像他們在閱兵大典時一樣，好像氣勢很強、能力很強，還是其實完全是過去媒體高度強化、美化他們的能力？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為雙方的合作才剛剛開始，北韓的部隊士兵也才剛投入到俄烏戰場上去加入相關的運作，我剛剛也跟羅美玲委員說明，因為北韓派的是他們的風暴軍團的部隊，都是步兵，擅長的是城鎮作戰跟敵後的滲透。不過在俄烏戰場，因為他的屬性比較特殊，北韓士兵可能因為語言的關係，想要進行敵後滲透會比較不容易，所以可能必須要依附在俄軍的部隊，雙方混合編組來進行一些戰場上的聯合行動，這大概是第一點說明。","第二點說明是，北韓跟俄國之間也有一些語文的隔閡跟障礙，我們從南韓情報單位跟國會公開的說明當中就提到了，他們北韓的士兵也必須學習俄國的軍事用語，聽說學習的軍事用語有100個，可是在學習的過程當中那個適應、理解以及兩國部隊聯合訓練的狀況，還有一個很大的磨合期，這大概是我們在公開情資目前掌握的狀況。"],["陳委員冠廷：磨合的狀況不佳，然後派出去的兵種不符合戰場的需求。第三個我要請教，他們有沒有受到俄羅斯方面的歧視？"],["蔡局長明彥：目前還沒有相關的資訊，因為他們才剛剛開始進行，他們一開始是先在俄國的遠東部隊進行適應訓練，適應訓練之後再把北韓士兵投入到庫斯克……"],["陳委員冠廷：各種外媒都已經有當初俄羅斯士兵抨擊北韓軍人的語音流出來了。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：外媒都有，所以實質上他們是有受到歧視的，換言之，北韓跟俄羅斯之間，他們國與國之間是一回事，普丁跟金正恩是一回事，但是在他們彼此之間、國家之間的交流其實是相對低的，而且之間的這種種族歧視實際上是存在的。我相信我們必須透過立法院這樣的質詢，要讓所有不管是在哪個地區的民眾看到，中國地區的民眾也要知道，俄羅斯跟北韓之間的交往不符合他們兩個國家的利益，同時，俄羅斯跟中國之間的交往也是一樣。我們看到俄軍跟中國……他們在批判北韓軍人的時候，通常也都會用種族歧視的話語來去攻擊中國的軍人，就說你們這些中國人等等，所以我們可以知道，不管是北韓還是中國或者是俄羅斯，他們三國之間其實不是大家想像中的是這麼團結的，他們彼此之間的矛盾、衝突，將會在俄烏的戰場上面一一展露出來，他們的協調性、他們的共同作戰能力，也會把這個東西展示出來。所以我必須強調，我們必須把相關的情報、可以釋放的情報，比方說到底北韓軍隊在歐洲這個戰場的表現如何？如果是不好的話，我們必須讓民眾知道不是大家想像的這樣。","最近有很多退役將領常常在一些我們不同的電視臺或者是社群平臺不斷的強調中國的軍事能力、北韓的軍事能力、朝鮮（即北韓）的軍事能力跟俄羅斯的軍事能力有多強，但是其實很多時候沒有反映出真實的狀態。甚至我們看到中、俄、朝、伊朗他們其實是聯合在做一個錯誤資訊的大外宣，比方說，中國中央相關的這些電視臺就會說，伊朗的防空防禦系統有多強，幾乎把所有以色列的導彈全部都擋下來，事實上不是嘛！但是對於不同文化，就是我根本看不懂伊朗的文字的話，或者說我們根本不知道實質上的狀況，他們地理位置，我們沒有可以做依據的點的話，有些人就會信以為真，不斷的傳這個假訊息，就是說中國的軍事能量多好、防空能力多好，已經進到伊朗，還協助伊朗成功抵禦以色列的導彈，這不是正確的，因為事實上，幾乎所有的目標由以色列發出來的都集中在伊朗的重要設施。所以我必須強調，接下來我們要面臨的是強力的輿論戰，現在就是會說北朝有多強、俄羅斯跟中國之間的關係多好，但我們要做的是要讓大家知道其實不是這樣子，所以中國對於朝鮮跟俄羅斯之間的軍事合作，他們現在的態度又是如何？他們是非常滿意的嗎？他們是開心的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我們發現到的是，中國的處境是比較尷尬的，也就是說，一方面它當然看到俄國跟北韓的合作，可以形成對於美國在印太戰略的牽制，但是另一方面，中國也不希望看到俄國跟北韓的合作太過於深入，因為深入之後，又會降低北韓對於中國在戰略上的依賴，所以中國在這個過程當中是處於一個戰略尷尬的局面。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以不是鐵板一塊，中國與俄羅斯、俄羅斯與朝鮮、朝鮮與中國、中國與伊朗、伊朗與俄羅斯，其實他們這4個國家，你要說這些威權國家的關係，不是我們想像中威權就會站在一起。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有！彼此都有自己地緣政治的挑戰。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：包含北韓在擁核這個問題上面，中國會支持嗎？中國不一定是支持的，中國是反對的，他們不希望旁邊有任何一個不受控的政權來去跟他們背後的俄羅斯合作。所以在輿論上面，其實現在對臺灣來講是非常友善，不管是國際社會、歐洲等等，但過去不一定是這樣的，過去24年來，我們經歷過很長的一段時間，臺灣都是在中國敘事模式之下的一分子，也就是說，談到中國才會談到臺灣，但現在臺灣已經跳出來，為什麼？我們有足夠的經濟，我們有足夠的防衛能量，我們可以扮演角色，所以接下來我們就是要針對我們未來要怎麼樣扮演角色，我們看到中俄朝在軍事上的合作聯盟已經不斷的展現出來、浮上檯面，還有資源的交換，那我們未來要怎麼樣跟其他包含日本、美國這些資源的交換、這些情報的分享？這個部分目前的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上我們跟國際的情報合作非常的緊密，有些因為是情報合作的關係，沒有辦法公開來討論，但基本上，在合作的議題上，對於中共整體的區域軍事的活動動態，以及對於中共對外的這種資安的攻擊，還有複合式的威脅，臺灣站在第一線，累積非常多的經驗來跟國際分享。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，局長，我都同意，但是我還是要強調，我為什麼今天要問他們在歐洲的表現是什麼？我們必須讓這個敘事框架是說，像中國，我們看到幾乎所有的短影音，現在在社群平臺談到的，就是說他們有最新的科技、最新的軍種等等一一出來，但實際上他們的表現能力是怎麼樣？這就是可以分享的情報。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：特別是確實就不如理想嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：那這個東西就是要相應的釋放出給有關的政府單位，讓大家知道實際上的狀況，不要被打擊士氣，實際上我們的表現是更好的。除了這個之外，我們講說跟我們價值一致的國家，我們要一起努力什麼的，跟我們價值不一樣的國家，我們一樣必須用地緣政治的關係來跟他們合作，特別是在南海相關的國家，你說越南跟我們的價值觀有一樣嗎？不一樣，但不影響我們的合作，你說菲律賓百分之百跟我們都是完全的民主嗎？如果以民主的指標來看，並沒有像臺灣是一個強韌的民主，那不代表我們不可以跟它合作，包含印尼、包含南海的各聲索國，我們必須讓他們知道說我們的利害是一致的，你要怎麼說服他們說你們的利害是一致的，我們要怎麼說服說我們的行動是一致的，這才是我們必須要釋放出、分享的情報。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：比方說中國最近在南海哪一個地方，可能是對於我國、我們已經實質擁有主權的這個島的部分，它是怎麼樣影響之外，甚至可以分享一些情報說他們現在在哪裡，有影響到比方說越南，有影響到比方說菲律賓，我們的敘事框架必須一致，我們的利害必須一致，跟我們價值相關的，我們繼續推動價值外交，沒有問題；跟我們價值不一樣的，我們用地緣政治的外交去講；跟我們價值、跟我們地緣政治同樣符合的，我們就可以更進一步。比方說，我們剛剛提到怎麼樣得到最新式的裝備，我們一直在講說灰色侵擾，我們海巡的裝備能不能快速的、有效的應對？現在去製造的話，可能需要5年、10年才會有有效的裝備來去反制，但如果沒有辦法的話，是不是可以討論租借的可能性？目前我們記得烏克蘭的租借法後，有美議員在提到臺灣的租借法，有沒有提到相關現在的進展是怎麼樣？有沒有相關這樣的情報？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想跟這些國際的情報或安全的合作，我們當然是廣結善緣，不同的議題可以跟不同的國家來發展相關的合作，我們自己有我們自己的強項，其他國家也有它比較優勢的地方，透過這樣的合作來建立起一種比較互補還有互利的合作關係。因為中共近幾年在周邊的海、空域的擴張非常嚴重，這讓我們有一個很好的背景跟環境來讓相關的國家針對中共擴張的議題交換意見，一起來關注中共跟其他國家，包括委員剛剛在螢幕上提到的中俄的海上聯演，我們都有在注意他們聯演的程度是怎麼樣，包括後勤補給的資源有沒有一起分享，我們都看得非常多細節。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。我必須強調，他們的能力增加的時候，我們要釋放出我們的能力沒有辦法因應的話，那就是快速的跟我們理念相近的國家、跟我們價值相近的國家、利害相近的國家，跟他們不管是用租借或者是武器裝備的取得都很重要。最後我還是要強調一下，最近中共的西鬆東緊戰略，最近跟印度之間的關係好像有比較和緩化，有些人就會說，這個是表示中共讓步，我個人會比較警惕一點，我認為它是先把資源往東部移動，是不是有這種可能性？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為中印才剛剛簽署他們邊境巡邏的相關協定，看起來是有在控管彼此的雙邊關係，主要可能有包括到長期的邊境對峙，已經造成雙方在各方面的負擔都比較重，所以特別在這次的兩國元首會談之前就達成了這個邊境的協議來緩和彼此的關係。"],["陳委員冠廷：我是擔心它可能會把這些相關的軍事資源移到東部，甚至是臺灣海峽這個部分……"],["蔡局長明彥：這個我們來注意。"],["陳委員冠廷：有這樣的消息，我們就是儘量來反映給其他的……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，跟委員說明一下，因為中印邊境的問題是結構的，它現在只是在管理，並沒有辦法根本地解決。"],["陳委員冠廷：非常好，這是結構的問題，我必須強調，我們跟印度之間的關係更是要重視，因為就算它是百分之百中立的狀況，也會讓中國有所忌憚，這就是deterrence、戰略的嚇阻。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為他們必須還是要把資源的一部分分布在西部，所以我們跟印度之間的交往，不管是在你說的商業上面、軍事上面、科技上面，都還是會給中共施加一點壓力。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們所有不管是情報工作、軍事工作的重點，就是要讓中國它的計算更加複雜化，要讓它能夠再想一次，當他們要做出任何對臺灣擴大衝突的時候，有沒有可能會完全失敗？有沒有可能會部分失敗？讓它不斷地在思考這個地方。特別你要想到它周邊的各個國家，都是跟它在地緣上真的是有挑戰的，而不是友好的，不管是越南也好，最近有看到越南民眾在南海捕魚被中國包圍……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有。"],["陳委員冠廷：這些東西我們都必須……如果臺灣有類似狀況的話，跟越南說、跟世界說，這就是共同面臨到的威脅，我們如果未來要在印太地區、在印太戰略上面表現出我們的價值的話，這就是一個方式。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們繼續來努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，局長請回。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d73ee53f5983ad99c080dcbcec04735dda2450328f9194eb4cedbb00e0087671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:48:05 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前我們國安高層對美選因為他的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道對美選的結果你又是外交部出身的"},{"start":273.186,"end":296.839,"text":"目前有沒有什麼因應?有,事實上美國因為是台灣在印太地區產期最重要的夥伴之一那對於美國的國內選情我們非常的關注那因為它是一個動態長期的一個過程所以在過去這段時間我們都有彙整一些相關美國選情發展的一個狀況那以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上台的國安人士的佈局那以及他們對於經貿、對中"},{"start":298.68,"end":298.82,"text":"這涵蓋到人事嗎?"},{"start":309.858,"end":334.593,"text":"他的國安人士、內閣可能的人士﹖對他的政策、選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西這些政策會落實有哪些對於台海也好對周邊的連鎖效應因為這涵蓋到經濟、國防甚至於外交還有一些相關的安全議題搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到所以"},{"start":335.313,"end":353.726,"text":"在因應這樣的準備上,我們國家是採取什麼層級?有用到國安會議來準備嗎?事實上在會議當中也都會討論到一些外在的一些狀況,包括美國跟日本相關選舉的狀況,都有相關的討論。所以國安會議有納入這個議題?有,有在討論。那也是跨部會在做準備?對,有。"},{"start":355.558,"end":377.584,"text":"那到目前為止每選的人選我們是一件事情美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當的分裂我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣子分裂的美國對於政黨他的party issue太強烈了未來這個部分我們有沒有什麼樣的concern"},{"start":378.746,"end":404.563,"text":"這部分當然在選舉過程當中不只是美國的選舉各國選舉因為選情的激化難免都會有比較二元化兩極化的一些社會的氛圍存在那但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同的聲音在表述之後透過新的行政團隊跟國會行政立法之間還有國會內部不同政黨的討論來針對後續的一個政策對抗立足一些共識出來"},{"start":405.984,"end":410.206,"text":"基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變那事實上在拜登的印太戰略的一些布局有很多也是延續到"},{"start":426.516,"end":426.576,"text":"其實我認為我們該"},{"start":445.04,"end":470.916,"text":"我關心的就是這一塊大方向那個格局是國際架構其實要改變但是結構性的問題很難改變比如說中國的擴張主義啊中國不遵守國際規範啊或者相關的地緣政治的矛盾衝突那個架構不會變所以不管誰當選在運作這個國際規範上的架構是不一樣的但是不同的政黨不同的人他在處理的方法"},{"start":471.696,"end":494.199,"text":"會不一樣,這些不一樣有沒有會影響到台灣的部分?對,我們確實注意的重點就在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分以經貿狀況來講,那川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面的脫鉤那就賀錦麗的團隊來講,他可能是比較重視的是去風險那川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅,可能到一百那賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再逃離"},{"start":495.48,"end":524.111,"text":"對,還有他認為說假如牽台的話講到200,所以我的意思是說,我們觀察重點就在這些細節,他們的政策方向上大致是一致的,也就是至終有台,但是在細節的處理上,會不太一樣。那等於就是像醫生在開藥方,方向都是要開這個藥,有人是吃半顆,有人開兩粒,所以這個其實對台灣在經貿安全影響是很重大的影響,關於一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了,比如說CPTPP,比方說Quad,"},{"start":524.611,"end":544.472,"text":"比方說AUKUS其實兩位的主張是不太一樣的那這個不一樣當中對第一島鏈對於我們這邊安全議題其實會構成一定的影響那有人擔心什麼軍售什麼我覺得那一塊反而變化不大在這個部分的話我們目前國安單位準備的方式"},{"start":545.593,"end":547.154,"text":"最近發現當共諜背叛國家不管什麼樣的身份該重辦"},{"start":568.427,"end":575.788,"text":"但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後"},{"start":576.994,"end":602.384,"text":"不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻或者向德恩都被要求拍一個向解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片國安局有沒有研判為什麼就你已經當間諜我還讓你拍影片當間諜應該是秘密的可以收集破壞台灣瞭解國安資料還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效忠不抵抗他的目的是什麼"},{"start":602.924,"end":624.847,"text":"對我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的一個效忠那也許情報工作應該是要低調但它這部分比較屬於的是一種心理戰的操作那一旦台海有任何的事況發生的話可以來散佈這些影片來造成一種氣氛因為好幾件了嘛對七件大概我們掌握有七件有拍影片有七件對有那這七件當中"},{"start":626.625,"end":641.299,"text":"我認為除了是要打擊我們的軍方士氣這些老鼠屎最對不起的是自己軍中跑者99.99%的人盡忠職守保護國家你這些老鼠屎"},{"start":643.411,"end":659.473,"text":"讓國軍被罵其實那個已經找不到什麼話來罵他們但是還拍這影片除了打擊士氣外加一個作用分化人民跟軍方之間的互相所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶"},{"start":660.374,"end":676.414,"text":"對,就以委員剛所提到向德恩的那個案子來講,最後院方是用貪污自對條例來判,才能判到7年。我有為了這件事情去詢問,他說他們認為很可惡,就發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠,"},{"start":677.755,"end":696.008,"text":"現在的罰則在一個灰色地帶不容易適用然後查到他有收錢所以用貪汙之類條例辦他他如果有間諜的行為當然就用共諜方式來辦他所以顯示這個行為我相信在場沒有黨派之分都認為不適當但是目前法律有一個漏洞"},{"start":697.652,"end":709.02,"text":"這個不是言論自由有人說那是言論自由開什麼玩笑國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠這如果叫言論自由的話國家還在嗎所以法律有個洞嘛所以本席有提一個修法案"},{"start":711.53,"end":739.144,"text":"我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形那國安法而且是不只是限定軍人相關單位向中共要武力犯台去表忠表示不抵抗這個行為其實是不僅不足取不僅不道德而且如果是公職人員不管是什麼身份的公職人員哪怕是民意代表這都是違法的行為所以我們應該用法律補上這個溶洞我提這個國安法"},{"start":739.964,"end":764.254,"text":"相關的修正,國安局應該有看過,對這個法的態度是什麼?對,我們樂觀其成,那也確實是有處理到目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間。這確實是一個洞,這個洞要堵起來。對,因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織,對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定。就發展組織的,我們現在國安法重罰,從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了,就參與組織的,"},{"start":768.957,"end":788.753,"text":"這個法其實不應該有黨派之分我也希望在我們的立法院也許我們很多事情有重大的分歧甚至於有肢體衝突但對於國家安全我們應該是同一個國家的人應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院的時候"},{"start":790.235,"end":798.585,"text":"藍綠白可以一起支持我也希望國安單位如果認為這是適當的也應該要善盡遊說的責任好不好好我們樂觀其成那有需要我們來提供意見我們會積極的參與討論謝謝局長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時47分）首先麻煩主席請柏鴻輝副部長。"],["主席：請柏副部長。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：副部長，我請教幾個問題，這個問題其實牽涉到納稅人需要透明了解我們現在進度，有一段時間一直提出我們對美採購重要的軍售裝備延遲、延宕，當然你們都解釋過理由，因為肺炎期間工廠關閉、因為烏克蘭戰爭等等，但最近有些好消息，我覺得在不影響軍事機敏性的狀況下應該要讓國人知道。第一個問題，海馬斯是不是已經到臺灣了？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對，已經到臺灣了。"],["王委員定宇：我的印象那時候因為M109A6改成海馬斯，因此我們買了29套，所以這一批來到臺灣大概有幾套？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：11套。"],["王委員定宇：這11套抵達之後，因為我看了美國Fort Sill他們自己的網頁上有公布我們派訓送去的這些年輕官兵們，他們好像8月9號就受訓結業了，所以回來之後，現在接裝大概多久可以形成戰力？涉及機敏，你可以不回答。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，你剛剛問的都是蠻機敏的，所以有關於你所說訓練這樣的模式，我想還是保留一點，因為這個牽扯到我們戰力的養成。"],["王委員定宇：好，未來海馬斯的運用在國軍的想定它是什麼樣的運用？因為對灘頭已經有我們自己的雷霆2000了，所以它絕對不是當作雷霆2000那種大面積火箭彈的運用，有人說它是指揮官的遠程狙擊槍，在國防部想定這29套的海馬斯對臺灣的安全運用會運用在什麼地方？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這都是在我們所有武器運用上來講是一個國防機密的屬性，我想我不便談細節，但是就我們本身來講，最後的戰力必須要整合，整合起來它有分為長、中、近的射程標的，所以對整個戰術運用上來講，總長那邊都有一個特別的規劃，我想這個請您放心。"],["王委員定宇：我在這邊詢答這麼多年了，基於國家利益，保密是必要的，但基於納稅人透明知道，我們的詢問如果這兩個有扞格，以國家利益為優先。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["王委員定宇：我再請教一件事情就是，在年底前還有哪一些我們對美軍售的重要裝備會送到臺灣？我講的不是一般零附件。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：TOW-2B，在今年……"],["王委員定宇：TOW-2B現在是無線的嘛？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["王委員定宇：以前拖式飛彈常常一條線托著尾巴，遇到海水的時候，它容易失效，所以TOW-2B之前延遲交付，其實是美國他們軍方把關，好像生產品質有問題，所以打掉再重新製造。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：它是在設計、測試的時候發生問題，然後重新組裝、重新做，所以在今年年底會……"],["王委員定宇：所以TOW-2B在今年底以前？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：會完成。"],["王委員定宇：還有沒有其他的重要裝備？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：M1。"],["王委員定宇：對呀，M1人家上火車都被開拍到了。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["王委員定宇：M1A2第一批會到，也是在年底之前。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對。"],["王委員定宇：這些接裝的準備都準備好了嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：都準備好了。"],["王委員定宇：訓場呢？我們常關心坑子口、長安營區。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，這些我們都準備好了。"],["王委員定宇：希望啦！我知道有一些硬體其實還沒有做完，預算也還沒有到位嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["王委員定宇：好，先麻煩請回，我們請國安局長。","局長，我先問你美選的問題，美國大選當然對我們臺灣基本的政策是不押寶，也不公開預測，因為我們對於民主國家的內政是尊重的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：尊重美國選民他們自由民主意志的選擇，對臺灣來講，民主共和都是我們重視的好朋友，而他們對臺灣的政策其實都一樣的支持，這個是我們的基本架構。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：因為不押寶、不預測，代表我們準備的方案就要全部都準備哦！"],["蔡局長明彥：是這樣沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：不管A當選或B當選，都要有所準備，對於政策、人事、地緣政治的連鎖效應、安全議題，我相信我們政府都要有所準備，所以我第一個請教的是，目前國安高層對美選，因為它的結果搞不好要十多天後才知道，對美選的結果，你又是外交部出身的，目前有沒有什麼因應？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，事實上美國因為是臺灣在印太地區長期最重要的夥伴之一，對於美國國內的選情，我們非常的關注，因為它是一個動態、長期的過程，所以在過去這段時間，我們都有彙整一些相關美國選情發展的狀況，以及可能後續不管哪個團隊上臺的國安人事布局，以及他們對於經貿、對中，還有臺海政策的政策立場，從他們的一些國安幕僚來做蒐研，這一部分我們都有一些完整的整備。"],["王委員定宇：局長，你剛才講到就是我要問的，涵蓋到人事嘛！它的國安人事、內閣可能的人事嘛！它的政策、選舉當中的主張未必是將來要執行的東西，這些政策會落實的有哪些？對於臺海也好，對周邊的連鎖效應，因為這涵蓋到經濟、國防，甚至於外交，還有一些相關的安全議題，搞不好連調查局跟FBI都有關聯到。所以在因應這樣的準備上，我們國家是採取什麼層級？有用到國安會議來準備嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上在會議當中也都會討論到外在的一些狀況，包括美國跟日本選舉的狀況都有相關的討論。"],["王委員定宇：所以國安會議有納入這個議題的討論？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，有在討論。"],["王委員定宇：也是跨部會在做準備？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有。"],["王委員定宇：到目前為止，美選的人選是一件事情，美國這一次因為選舉其實是相當分裂，我們國安單位有沒有去評估這樣分裂的美國對於政黨，它的party issue太強烈了，未來這個部分，我們有沒有什麼樣的concern？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分當然在選舉過程當中，不只是美國的選舉，各國的選舉因為選情的激化，難免都會有比較二元化、兩極化的一些社會氛圍存在，但是我想民主國家也有一個很重要的價值，就是可以透過民主的體制讓不同聲音在表述之後，透過新的行政團隊跟國會，行政、立法之間，還有國會內部不同政黨的討論，來針對後續的政策推動釐出一些共識出來。"],["王委員定宇：我們國安層級評估美選後，不管誰當選，臺美之間的安全議題、安全合作及地緣政治的多邊組織等等會不會有變化？"],["蔡局長明彥：基本的架構應該不會有太大的改變，事實上，拜登印太戰略的一些布局也有很多是延續川普總統當時的政策布局，所以長期來看，美國對印太的戰略有它的延續性在。當然，很多策略在處理時的一些細節或管理方式會不盡相同，但是大的基調是一直都在的。"],["王委員定宇：其實我認為我們該關心的就是這一塊，大方向的格局是國際架構，其實要改變沒有……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，那是結構性的。"],["王委員定宇：結構性的問題很難改變，比如中國的擴張主義、中國不遵守國際規範，或者相關地緣政治的矛盾衝突，那個架構不會變，所以不管誰當選……"],["蔡局長明彥：都一樣！"],["王委員定宇：在運作國際規範上的架構是不一樣的，但是不同的政黨、不同的人在處理的方法會不一樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：這些不一樣，有沒有會影響到臺灣的部分？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，確實我們注意的重點就是在委員剛剛所提到的這個部分，以經貿狀況來講，川普團隊比較主張的是跟中國的全面脫鉤，就賀錦麗的團隊來講，他可能比較重視的是去風險；川普希望的是增加對中國的高關稅可能到100%，賀錦麗認為這一部分可能要再考慮。"],["王委員定宇：他講到200%啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他認為假如侵臺的話，講到200%，所以我的意思是說，我們觀察的重點就在這些細節，他們的政策在方向上大致是一致的，也就是制中友臺，但是在細節的處理上會不太一樣。"],["王委員定宇：等於是像醫師在開藥方，方向都是要開這個藥，有人是吃半顆，有人是開2粒，所以這個其實對臺灣在經貿安全議題上是有很重大的影響，光一個多邊主義跟單邊主義就不一樣了，比方說CPTPP，比方說QUAD，比方說AUKUS，其實這兩位的主張是不太一樣的，這個不一樣當中，對第一島鏈、對於我們這邊的安全議題其實會構成一定的影響。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：有人擔心軍售什麼的，我覺得那一塊反而變化不大，在這個部分，我們目前國安單位準備的方式，你只能去研判它嘛，我們跟他們相關的團隊有沒有接觸？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分不好公開說明，但傳統上來講，我們跟不同的政黨或不同的行政部門或國會部門，都有非常熱絡的交往。"],["王委員定宇：好，我回到另外一個問題，最近發現，當然共諜背叛國家，不管什麼樣的身分都該重辦，但是有一些現役軍人可能因為經濟因素或因為什麼樣的因素被吸收之後，不管是最近那一對來自空軍的夫妻，或者向德恩，都被要求拍一個向解放軍效忠不抵抗的影片，國安局有沒有研判為什麼會這樣，都已經當間諜了，還讓他們拍影片，你懂我的意思嗎？當間諜應該是秘密的，可以蒐集破壞臺灣或了解國安的資料，居然還叫他們拍影片向五星旗效忠不抵抗，它的目的是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想主要的目的還是在動搖國軍對於國家的效忠啦，也許情報工作應該是要低調，但他這個部分比較屬於一種心理戰的操作，一旦臺海有任何事況發生的話，可以散布這些影片來造成一種氣氛……"],["王委員定宇：因為好幾件了嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：7件，大概我們掌握的有7件。"],["王委員定宇：對，有拍影片的有7件，這7件當中，我認為除了是要打擊我們軍方的士氣，坦白講，這些老鼠屎最對不起的其實是自己軍中的袍澤。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：99.99%的人盡忠職守、保護國家，這些老鼠屎讓國軍被罵，其實我已經找不到什麼話來罵他們，但是他拍這個影片除了打擊士氣以外，其實還有一個作用就是分化人民跟軍方之間的互信。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個部分目前法律上的罰則好像是一個灰色地帶喔。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，以委員剛剛所提到的向德恩的那個案子來講，最後院方是用貪污治罪條例來辦，才能判到7年。"],["王委員定宇：我有為了這個事情去詢問，他們認為很可惡，但發現現役軍人著軍裝向五星旗效忠，現在的罰則是在一個灰色地帶，不容易適用，然後查到他有收錢，所以用貪污治罪條例辦他，他如果有間諜的行為，當然就用共諜方式來辦他。對於這樣的行為，我相信在場沒有黨派之分，都認為不適當，但是目前法律有一個漏洞，這個不是言論自由，有人說那是言論自由，開什麼玩笑！國軍著軍裝向五星旗效忠，這如果叫言論自由的話，國家還在嗎？所以法律有個洞嘛，所以本席有提一個修法案，我們提的修法案就是針對這樣的情形，而且不只是限定軍人，相關單位，向中共的武力犯臺去表忠、表示不抵抗，這個行為不僅不足取、不僅不道德，而且如果是公職人員，不管是什麼身分的公職人員，哪怕是民意代表，這都是違法的行為，所以我們應該用法律補上這個漏洞。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我提這個國安法相關的修正，國安局應該有看過啦……"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員定宇：你對這個法的態度是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們樂觀其成，也確實是目前法律在處理上的一個模糊空間……"],["王委員定宇：這確實是一個洞，這個洞要堵起來。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為國安法裡面只提到所謂的發展組織，對於參與組織還有其他的這些行為都沒有明確的規定。"],["王委員定宇：對，去發展組織的，我們現在國安法重罰，從2019年修法通過之後其實是重罰了……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：結果參與組織的變成沒事，這個不對，這個法其實不應該有黨派之分，我也希望在我們立法院也許在很多事情上有重大的分歧，甚至於有肢體衝突，但對於國家安全，我們應該是同一個國家的人，應該不分黨派一起把這個洞補起來。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的。"],["王委員定宇：我也希望這個法不管在黨團協商或者大院審議的時候，藍、綠、白可以一起支持，我也希望國安單位如果認為這是適當的，也應該要善盡遊說的責任，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們樂觀其成，有需要我們來提供意見，我們會積極參與討論。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝局長、謝謝主席"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，局長請回。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156527","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156527","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d296f5f6f18f082caec98f8113ce54f74a2450328f9194eb459671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:51:42 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House所有的生產都是在台灣那麼台灣的影響力是非常大美國的Design House佔全球你是說台灣對美國晶片的影響力很大還是我們出口到美國的產值對台灣的經濟影響非常重大這兩回事"},{"start":162.929,"end":184.17,"text":"這個報告委員我想這個是很清楚的因為你也是經濟學博士所以你非常清楚這樣的一個結果我們基於這個觀察我認為在半導體這一個部分影響應該不大因為它既存的事實台積電在先進製程是一個人的武林"},{"start":185.117,"end":210.408,"text":"那麼20奈米以上的這些傳統製程基本上臺灣還是非常具有經驗跟這個市場的競爭能力所以美國的廠商美國的設計廠商佔了70%所以這個是很難去改變的一個事實所以我們雖然有這樣的一個製造的技術"},{"start":211.348,"end":215.931,"text":"但是美國的商務部對於台灣就是對於美國的晶片法案台灣等大型晶片廠商他們就是還沒付款是不是"},{"start":241.618,"end":266.076,"text":"要等到年底嗎?是不是?我金星主委知道那個跟委員報告台積電現在最新的消息就是他在美國那個廠是運作的非常的順暢所以下個月12月份他們會有一個Ceremony這個Ceremony的時候我的預計他們可能會再公告他下一個廠建置的時間所以會不會撥款?"},{"start":268.124,"end":293.805,"text":"會不會撥款?美國的晶片法案會不會撥款?對,他會跟這個美國請款因為現在美國那個晶片法案的補助阿阿如果川普大選會不會撥款?那個什麼英特爾的老闆都出來講說我到現在投了300億美金但是他的補助都還沒拿到所以我們有可能也沒有辦法拿到是不是?但是那個錢對台積電來講其實太小"},{"start":295.938,"end":317.232,"text":"台積電投資一個廠,投資一個廠300多年你沒有看到那個誰?劉主委是不是?他在你旁邊臉色都變了委員是這樣喔,因為當時補助是有一定的Milestone那台積電即將會達到Milestone然後量產之後Milestone到達他就會去清換"},{"start":319.262,"end":332.54,"text":"因為這個晶片法是法令除非將來在中參議院會重新修訂或是廢掉它的時候才有可能否則它不會改變它是一個法定它必須依法來進行"},{"start":334.141,"end":335.241,"text":"我完全贊同劉祖偉的這個看法"},{"start":362.608,"end":388.603,"text":"你贊同他是不是?我給你看我們的數字我們出口的數字是什麼?中國對中國大陸的哎呀他弄錯了啦他做powerpoint做錯我們對中國大陸還有香港怎麼樣?整個比例雖然已經逐年降低還有35%對於美國呢有17%今年提高到20%"},{"start":389.844,"end":399.527,"text":"如果兩邊都增加的情況下那對於臺灣的經濟影響是什麼過去主計總處有說如果大陸的經濟下滑1%的時候對臺灣的經濟影響是0.2%那這樣子的情況下如果美國對大陸可以重稅的時候我們會不會對臺灣的經濟造成影響"},{"start":419.113,"end":419.573,"text":"怎樣?"},{"start":419.573,"end":420.714,"text":"郭部長你說?"},{"start":420.714,"end":428.417,"text":"你怎麼樣?報告委員 我的看法還是一樣就是對臺灣的影響是正向的正向的?"},{"start":428.417,"end":435.36,"text":"是怎麼樣?不會有影響我還有下一張喔不會有影響嗎?"},{"start":435.36,"end":448.305,"text":"為什麼?你說啊 你要有論述啊因為美國會對中國加大的稅金那這個中國的而第二個就是說科技的產品它幾乎啊"},{"start":449.105,"end":449.145,"text":"主席"},{"start":470.091,"end":483.891,"text":"我們現在因為跟美國經濟非常的很大啦所以現在美國都要求我們不能夠這個民主聯盟的國家不能夠把這個產品賣到蘇俄賣到這個中國"},{"start":486.755,"end":487.356,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":504.389,"end":532.531,"text":"跟委員報告其實原來我們在中國跟香港我們最高的時候會將近到48%左右的出口值現在逐年下滑那你可能不知道最近的內卷中國的內卷其實傷到台灣的企業非常的重包括甚至最近低潤也出現這個現象但是隨著美國對這個禁令的加壓反而有助於形成兩個不同的世界對我們是有幫助的可以堵住中國的內卷造成對我們的傷害"},{"start":534.032,"end":534.652,"text":"好的,非常感謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（9時52分）謝謝主席。我想要請郭部長跟劉主委。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長、國發會劉主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：早。這是昨天我為什麼在院會質詢的，我想要了解的是，今天美國大選什麼時候會出爐？你們有沒有掌握？掌握我們經濟命脈的兩位首長都沒掌握？美國大選結果什麼時候會出爐？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們估計還要至少四、五天。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還要四、五天是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為這次通信投票的比例將近一半。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以還沒有……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：時間會跟上次一樣拉得很久，因為這次很膠著，也會跟上次一樣，可能要等到最後一個州出來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是高盛證券對於美國大選四個scenario，我想要了解行政院對於美國大選的scenario是什麼？兩位誰可以回答？郭部長，你來講。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你勇敢的講。"],["郭部長智輝：我都會對我們自己負責的範圍做出scenario。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，那你對你的經濟呢？對川普呢？如果川普當選，昨天劉主委說了，差異會比較大，是不是？我們看到川普說：臺灣偷走我們的晶片！是不是？為什麼這個是他？你回答啊！你回答啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個命題是他的選舉語言。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你覺得是選舉語言？"],["郭部長智輝：對，所以我會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：他會不會對臺灣的晶片課以重稅？會不會？他說的啊！他在Podcast說的。"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣對美國來講，美國這麼多Design House，所有的生產都是在臺灣，臺灣的影響力非常大。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["郭部長智輝：美國的Design House占全球……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你是說臺灣對美國晶片的影響力很大，還是我們出口到美國的產值對臺灣的經濟影響非常重大？這兩個是兩回事！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個是很清楚的，因為你也是經濟學博士，所以你非常清楚這樣的一個結果。我們基於觀察，我認為在半導體這個部分，影響應該不大，因為它既存的事實，台積電在先進製程是一個人的武林，且20奈米以上的傳統製程，基本上臺灣還是非常具有經驗跟市場的競爭能力。美國的設計廠商占了百分之七十，這個是很難去改變的事實，我們有這樣一個製造的技術，它一定要來找我們，能夠影響的就是譬如說剩下的可能去找中國，中國可能占了十幾個percent。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他對中國要課以更重的稅，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！反正以前在中國下單的通通會跑來臺灣啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是美國的商務部對於美國的晶片法案，臺灣等大型晶片廠商，他們就是還沒付款，是不是？要等到年底嘛！是不是？劉鏡清主委知道？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，台積電現在最新的消息，它在美國那個廠運作得非常順暢，所以下個(12)月他們會有一個ceremony，這個ceremony，我的預計，他們可能會再公告下一個廠建置的時間。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以會不會撥款？會不會撥款？美國的晶片法案會不會撥款？"],["郭部長智輝：它會向美國請款，因為現在美國晶片法案的補助……"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果川普當選，會不會撥款？"],["郭部長智輝：Intel的老闆都出來說：我到現在投了300億美金。但是他的補助都還沒拿到！"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以呢？"],["郭部長智輝：所以兩邊都沒拿到啊！"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我們有可能也沒有辦法拿到，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：那個錢對台積電來講其實太小。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不重要是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：台積電投資一個廠300億美金……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我跟你講，你沒有看到劉主委，他在你旁邊臉都變了。"],["郭部長智輝：來，讓他講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，是這樣，因為當時補助有一定的milestone，台積電即將達到milestone，量產之後milestone達到就會去請款。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以下個月？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為晶片法是法令，除非將來在眾參議院重新修訂或廢掉，才有可能，否則它不會改變，它是一個法令，必須依法來進行。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我早上沒注意到您有來，我以為只有郭部長來，所以我特別引用了昨天劉主委的話，他認為美國對中國大陸會增60%的稅，臺灣頂多增10%的稅，但是這個東西對臺灣是利大於弊嗎？我想要問郭部長您的看法是怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我完全贊同劉主委的看法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：您贊同他，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我給你看我們的數字。我們出口的數字是什麼？我們對中國大陸還有香港，整個比例雖然已經逐年降低還有35%；對於美國呢？有17%，今年提高到20%，如果兩邊都增加的情況下，對於臺灣的經濟影響是什麼？","過去主計總處有說，如果大陸的經濟下滑1%的時候，對臺灣的經濟影響是2%，這樣的情況下，如果美國對大陸課以重稅的時候，會不會對臺灣的經濟造成影響？郭部長，您覺得怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我的看法還是一樣，對臺灣的影響是正向的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：正向的。"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為那個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是怎麼樣？不會有影響？我還有下一張喔。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會有影響嗎？為什麼？您要有論述啊！"],["郭部長智輝：因為美國會對中國加大稅金，第二個，科技的產品包含紅色供應鏈，美國都強烈的要求，這些過去可能從中國進口的東西……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是半導體，我們還有傳產啊！是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們傳產不在……"],["謝委員衣鳯：傳產受影響的就業人口數、中小企業，是95%所有的勞工。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在因為跟美國的經濟融合很大，所以現在美國都要求民主聯盟國家，不能夠將產品賣到蘇俄、賣到中國，它是非常強烈的要求，包括伊朗，包括北韓。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。"],["郭部長智輝：所以這些訂單過去是這樣，未來通通會到臺灣企業的身上。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我想要問一下劉主委，所以您還是主張利大於弊嗎？您那句話沒有錯嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，其實原來我們在中國跟香港，最高的時候會到48%左右的出口值，現在逐年下滑。您可能不知道最近中國的內捲，其實傷到臺灣企業非常的重，包括甚至DRAM也出現這樣的現象，但是隨著美國對這禁令的加壓，反而有助於形成兩個不同的世界，對我們是有幫助的，也可以堵住中國內捲對我們造成的傷害。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們必須看到，未來如果整個都加稅的情況下，在臺灣對中國大陸的進口也非常多的情況下，會不會對臺灣的經濟造成重大的影響？我認為和經濟有關最主要的兩個，部長應該要對臺灣的經濟非常非常的重視，您們應該要有各種情境的推演，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["主席：好，非常感謝謝衣鳯委員，部長跟主委請回座，謝謝。","下一位請邱議瑩委員質詢。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝主席，我們請一下郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。部長，我想今天有幾個問題請教您，最近國營事業換人的幅度還蠻大的，部長，您在國營事業換人的過程裡面，有跟哪些人討論過？討論的時間是多久？"],["郭部長智輝：您剛剛講的是國營事業的高層吧？"],["邱委員議瑩：對，國營事業的董事長、總經理，現在換人的幅度是很大的吧？對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我想這個部分牽涉到整個國家……"],["邱委員議瑩：有沒有跟誰討論過了？"],["郭部長智輝：當然有。"],["邱委員議瑩：討論的時間是多久？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分在我上任以後，大概從6月份開始討論……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以從6月份開始討論，是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，這個是昨天你們的中油董事長跟總經理交接。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，您沒有去嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：您們內部的同仁說因為您在開會，所以您沒有去參加。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：由經濟部政次去監交。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：我要請教的是，中油董事是什麼時候知道自己要被換？"],["郭部長智輝：大概兩個月前吧？"],["邱委員議瑩：兩個月前就知道了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：嗯。"],["邱委員議瑩：那什麼時候通知他？3天前？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我不清楚。"],["邱委員議瑩：3天前通知他，您不清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：這是您們的公文，您們的公文喔！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：10月30日發文給他，11月4日生效，兩個工昨天就叫人家滾蛋、走路，這是中油。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想在之前……"],["邱委員議瑩：您之前告訴他，什麼時間告訴他？這我不管，但您有沒有明確的跟他說，大概什麼時候要換人？要準備？即使是要換人，您也要給人家時間交接嘛！","來，這個是台糖，台糖28日簽公文，30日叫人家滾蛋、走路，10月4日交接，這是台糖。台船呢？也是一樣，台船董事長一紙公文，告訴鄭文隆下台就換人，台船總經理更可憐，在台船工作了52年，只剩下10天就要退休了，您禮拜五一紙公文，禮拜一就要換人、走人。","部長，您經營過一間公司啊，您看到一個52年的老員工，一紙公文叫他立刻滾蛋，他還對著台船鞠躬的時候，您內心不會感到很難過嗎？您知道我看到這張照片，我眼淚都掉下來了，我不知道我們政府怎麼了？我今天身為一個執政黨的立法委員，我很久沒有在這裡怒罵執政黨的官員，這個政府什麼時間變得這麼慘忍？這個政府什麼時間變得這麼不人道？這個政府什麼時間變得不懂得什麼是尊重？尊重兩個字很難嗎？一個做了這麼久的官員，您要換誰我都沒有意見，但是我覺得對人起碼的尊重應該要有吧？應該要有吧？"],["郭部長智輝：委員……"],["邱委員議瑩：郭董事長，您同意我的看法嗎？您過去經營一個公司，你的公司會這樣換人嗎？或許會，因為你是民間公司，你說換就換，你不想要用這個人，說fire就fire。可是一個國家的機器，國家可以這樣換人嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想，我們換人都會尊重法律的規定。"],["邱委員議瑩：您尊重法律的規定，但是您沒有尊重個人嘛！我沒有說您不可以換掉他，我講的是「尊重」兩個字。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：28日給他一個公文，他剩下10天要退休了，您多等他10天很難嗎？讓他有尊嚴的退休很難嗎？30日給他一個公文，11月4日交接，只有兩個工作天，他連打包都來不及啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員的指教。"],["邱委員議瑩：這些人一輩子奉獻在國家……"],["郭部長智輝：我想，剛剛委員所指導的「尊重」兩個字，我們回去部內會深刻的檢討，為什麼在程序上面會造成這樣的現象，造成當事人不舒服，這一點我感同身受，所以我們回去會就過去這幾個個案深刻的檢討，希望能夠改善這樣的現象。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，其實這不是只有您們的問題，對盧天麟也是這樣，一紙公文叫人家走人，對蔡煌瑯也是這樣，一紙公文叫人家走人，不是只有國營司，司長，您擔任國營司司長這麼久，我不相信過去您們處理人事是這樣處理的，你們過去處理人事，是這樣處理的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我可以請國營司司長。"],["胡司長文中：跟委員報告，事實上現在處理大概都是我們收到行政院公文以後，我們會給公司有一段時間安排董事會，所以絕對不會是當天。我們會等到公司已經把董事會的時間確定出來，跟董事長報告怎麼安排以後，我們再發公文，這樣才可以確保公司不會沒有董事長而用代理的方式。所以看起來，雖然公文可能是前兩天拿到的，但是原來的董事會跟董事長都已經提前知道，否則我們不會安排這個時間，因為如果不把董事會安排好，可能會有7、8天的時間，這個公司是沒有董事長的，我們現在的處理方式大概是這樣。"],["邱委員議瑩：確定你們是這樣處理的嗎？"],["胡司長文中：對，我們都有先跟公司……"],["邱委員議瑩：司長，我如果再問下去，你們真的會很難堪，我再問下去，真的是打執政黨一個大巴掌。我講了，很多國營事業，我對你用什麼人，我沒有意見；但我對於你不懂得尊重這件事情，我非常有意見！今天主席安排的議程要討論加薪、要討論這些東西，但如果政府部門自己連基本的尊重都做不到，你不要跟我談你的施政會多有效果啦！民心都不在啦！郭董事長，您在當董事長的時候，應該不會這樣治理公司吧？您說你要把治理公司那一套拿來治理經濟部，您治理公司的時候不會這樣子吧？這個是讓我覺得最痛心的地方！接二連三，這一個多月來，國營事業的人事汰換，我必須再一次講，我覺得你們連基本的尊重都沒有！我看到台船總經理這張照片，我內心真的非常非常非常地難過！在台船工作了52年，竟然被你們一紙公文，就這樣子掃地出門？你叫台船公司的員工如何對這個公司盡心盡力呢？你叫中油公司的員工如何對這個公司盡心盡力呢？只要一紙公文就可以讓人家滾蛋啦！你叫這些人如何為公司賣命呢？如果你的崇越集團也是這樣子對待員工的話，這些人如何為你的公司賣命？就這麼簡單的道理嘛！你今天要講加薪，如果帶人不能帶心的話，這個國家的治理是會很有問題的。我不知道一個治理企業的部長來到經濟部之後，反而是這樣子對待國營事業的董監事、董事長，如此處理國營事業的人事。我後面的東西，我也不想問了，我只是……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，這個部分我們會深刻地檢討。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我真的要表達我非常非常地憤怒，我覺得你們對「尊重」這兩個字完全不懂。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會回去檢討。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員，部長跟次長請回座。待會張嘉郡委員質詢完之後，我們休息7分鐘。","下一位質詢請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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萬以下的；第二個，金管會也會開始去設定薪資門檻，要求最低工資1.3倍來做……"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，你報告的這個，本席都有看到你的資料，都知道。現在我們擔心的就是企業之間會透過聯合的行為，用一樣的低薪去壓榨勞工，這就是你要去讓企業整個透明的結構要呈現出來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，我也請金管會協助進行產業薪資比較表出來。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：看誰高、誰低。"],["呂委員玉玲：你多久時間能給我們？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我還要再問一下金管會。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，一個月好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝，主委請回。我們現在請郭部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["呂委員玉玲：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：講到低薪，這跟企業有關係。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們要提高中小企業加薪的誘因，在這邊我們看到中小企業發展條例裡面特別說到一定的人數，就是對於在24歲以下、65歲以上，你們有補助基本薪資。請教一下，24歲以下的人呢？他現在讀大學、他讀高中，他畢了業要去當兵，當兵回來剛好就在24到30歲之間，是不是這個部分的話，你可以說在加薪、減稅的這個部分，可以在24歲以上、30歲以下年輕人，讓企業能夠增僱一些年輕勞工的意願，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那個是對用24歲以下的人，或者是65歲以上比較年長者的企業，給予一些減稅的輔導。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為他們初出社會，不管當兵回來或大學畢業，找工作的時候是非常辛苦的，如果說沒有給他一個保障，跟鼓勵企業去多請一些年輕人的話，他們還是會在低薪階段。這個部分，部長可以調整嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們來協助企業調整。"],["呂委員玉玲：好不好？30歲以下、24歲以上的……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們給它鼓勵，它如果有調整的，我們就會給它一些獎勵。"],["呂委員玉玲：給他們鼓勵。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在少子化也非常嚴重。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個部分你研議要多久時間？一個月好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝部長。接下來請勞動部王司長。"],["主席：請勞動部王司長。"],["呂委員玉玲：司長，勞動部有針對產業執行職涯訓練，在這訓練當中我們看到在2020年到2023年產業新尖兵計畫裡面，我們投入了非常多的資源辦職訓，在這一次職訓裡面總共有2萬3,555人投入，我們看到他們出來之後，將近25.5%的年輕人並沒有投入相關產業，這個是不是你們課程的規劃沒有符合產業的需求？"],["王司長厚誠：謝謝委員的垂詢。這個部分來講，現在我們還在評估中，因為產業新尖兵基本上是他們新入職場的部分，本身來講，課程我們也是隨時滾動調整。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以，你看這兩萬三千多人裡面，拿到薪水4萬以上的只有4,829人。"],["王司長厚誠：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：拿到3萬以下的有10,235人，所以他們職訓出來沒有拿到一個水平的薪水，還是在3萬元以下的低薪，你們的職訓有沒有針對產業的需求？有沒有去產業調查他們需要什麼人、你們培訓什麼人？為什麼這個有落差？沒辦法馬上就業呢？"],["王司長厚誠：跟委員報告，因為基本上來講，訓後還要經過一段實習，而且在企業內他本身也要了解企業整個運作情形，而且我們其實不止這個部分而已，其實在就業之後我們還有產業人才投資方案，他隨時可以精進自己的技能。我想職業訓練的培訓是逐步建立的，然後本身來講，他進入職場一個基本門檻之後，從基本門檻建立他基本的技能之後，再逐步按照他所需要……"],["呂委員玉玲：司長，你要了解，我們會培訓這些人員，就是我們要訓練人才、產業需要的人才。"],["王司長厚誠：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是產業上有這個人力的缺口，我們要去給它補足，產業跟我們年輕人的創業共同能夠符合的話，才有雙贏的局面，勞動部這邊是不是可以提出一些改善方案呢？"],["王司長厚誠：可以，沒問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個方案你們什麼時候提出來？一個月好不好？"],["王司長厚誠：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲召委非常精確的質詢。","下一位質詢請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 林委員長局長早安 現在美選美國選舉正在開票當中但是我沒有要問你美選的結果我其實比較關注的就是說2024年即將接近尾聲那麼我們知道其實全球好幾個我們主要的民主夥伴國家"},{"start":27.336,"end":27.396,"text":"：林楚茵"},{"start":51.716,"end":75.327,"text":"俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結。不知道這樣的訊息,國安局有沒有相關的研擬?那麼對於這篇報導,國安局的看法又是如何?是不是對全球來說,現在所面臨的變成是自由民主的陣營"},{"start":76.327,"end":89.863,"text":"跟相對極權而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是兩元的更為極端,局長怎麼看?針對委員所引述的報導先說明一下不是國安局來對外提供的一個觀點"},{"start":91.284,"end":106.731,"text":"但是對於各種媒體上的討論我們都非常的注意有在列入我們的參考跟評估那特別要注意到的是在接下來的一個地緣政治的發展那到底有沒有哪些的發展趨勢我們必須要掌握那個脈動那確實正如委員所提到的事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後"},{"start":108.712,"end":128.284,"text":"國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的這種對立的一個局勢確實慢慢的在開展當中那在隨著整個俄烏戰事的戰事長期化那這樣的趨勢越來越明顯那這種趨勢不只是美國友盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的一個支持"},{"start":128.664,"end":149.222,"text":"也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組所以你用這個角度來看的話可以發現到確實在民主陣營跟非民主陣營之間在各個方面不管是地緣政治的角力高科技的一個競爭以及在政治理念價值的一個差異性確實有越來越兩極化對立的一個趨勢正如委員所描述的"},{"start":149.542,"end":176.194,"text":"那如果是這樣的話,我們在安全的部分,不論是跟相關的國防部又或者是情報相關的單位當中,是不是都有做好相關的準備?有,對,因為在面對比較變動的區域的安全環境,那怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資確實非常的重要。那就本局來講,我們在過去這一年多裡面大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明。第二部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位,"},{"start":177.375,"end":177.575,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":197.697,"end":220.763,"text":"好 那麼講到這個情報交流當然還是要回到現在其實大家都在關注的美選可是在美選真的投票出來之前其實很多見縫插針對於台灣的一些不利的消息到底是中國這邊放消息還是在地協力者放消息這個我不確定但是就看到報上開始說了"},{"start":222.543,"end":236.468,"text":"對於台灣面對沒選的結果有所謂壓錯寶的壓寶說啊有認為說台灣這個不了解狀況又或者說台灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的這個說法存在那對於這種已經開始"},{"start":239.957,"end":245.722,"text":"有,因為就爭議訊息的散播來講,國安局這邊有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡的查找那委員所提到的是,散播的一個網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的"},{"start":264.62,"end":286.667,"text":"他背後有一個很大的一個產業鏈還有工作鏈由中共方面來提供相關的情訊再透過協力者來進行轉發跟我們做一個數字上的說明在聯合力建2024A的演習過程當中相關的正義訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化在2024A我們看到Ttalk的異常帳號才150幾個"},{"start":289.028,"end":306.204,"text":"可是到了2024B T-talk的異常帳號已經到了1800多個所以你可以看到那個網絡不斷的在擴散那這是大概第一個趨勢跟委員報告那第二個趨勢除了他的運作網絡以外可以注意到的是他們的議題的操作"},{"start":306.704,"end":322.199,"text":"在中共軍演的期間當時的爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的這些所謂的演習的一個活動那到了現階段因為開始進入了美選的高峰季那也確實向媒體相關的討論跟報導"},{"start":324.181,"end":348.94,"text":"有越來越多的證訊是聚焦在所謂質疑那美國會不會持續的對台灣提供堅定的安全承諾以及台灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性以及那些軍品到底對於台海防衛作戰有沒有用處的這些討論那這些正義訊息我們都有持續的來關注那我們會判定他們正義訊息對於社會衝擊的程度來即時通報到各單位來對外說明跟應出"},{"start":349.48,"end":370.141,"text":"好,因為面對就是其實我們的民主友邦在進行所謂的整個權力的改組或是選舉的過程當中,中國最想的就是見縫插針,製造台灣民心的動盪,然後有機會來宣擾一波、干擾一波,我想這個國安局應該都有在準備當中,但是除了在"},{"start":370.501,"end":370.541,"text":"主席"},{"start":400.401,"end":422.415,"text":"﹗"},{"start":422.495,"end":440.732,"text":"就是中共利用繞一圈的方式然後來台灣租AI的算力如果根據平面媒體的報導是目前台灣AI算力並用不到這麼多那麼很顯然就是有人用藉口上市的方式來做AI算力的租借我們都知道"},{"start":441.112,"end":443.996,"text":"美國針對中國是要求美國的企業不准投資中國對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除但是如果台灣變成是中國席產地的一環那麼這該怎麼辦?"},{"start":454.977,"end":476.062,"text":"對,這部分跟委員說明一下,那國安局針對防範中共對台灣的竊密挖角,我們有成立一個專欄機制那有一些成果也跟委員利用這個機會報告一下,大概從2021年到現在,我們偵辦的案件查查案件已經超過100多件那移送到檢方來起訴的已經有40幾件,那另外還有相關案件還在偵辦當中"},{"start":477.282,"end":501.537,"text":"其數十幾件不代表只有這個數字還會持續的來不斷的調查跟正辦那這大概是第一部分那第二部分是針對這一些所謂的比較高科技的管制那經濟部這邊有所謂的這種出口管制的一個清單那這部分我們也持續的跟其他的友好國家來交換意見到底哪一些是屬於比較關鍵敏感的技術應該要列在清單裡面"},{"start":502.538,"end":505.941,"text":"主管國科會公佈一波一波的關鍵技術清單項目和名單,後續是不是要把AI這部分"},{"start":521.954,"end":522.034,"text":"主席"},{"start":536.316,"end":563.012,"text":"因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰事實上它的變形非常的大也非常的廣對於國安局又或者是相關的單位來講好像就像我們過去講打炸這個每個部門都涉入其中現在的我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透也是變成是這樣似乎變成是每個部會都必須要做一個緊密的相連"},{"start":563.832,"end":581.122,"text":"有關於到底AI算力要不要納入又或者是說像華為這樣的一個對於全球美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個所謂擁有後門城市然後侵擾全球安全的部分那麼要不要放入這個恐怕也要請"},{"start":582.142,"end":607.89,"text":"國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密的聯繫另外一個其實本席關注的就是美國的參議員都已經發聲了要怎麼樣來協防台灣相關那麼有關於管制協力者那麼我們要從源頭開始那麼現在就是國安局怎麼樣來協助我們台灣的廠商就是避免我們的晶片好像為華為所用那這個部分我們其實有了解嗎"},{"start":610.349,"end":636.836,"text":"對,對這個部分我剛也跟委員說明到有一些中國的廠商不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在台灣簽名挖角的我們是有一個專案的機制在進行相關的查查那也有一些起訴的一個進度出來那對於這個問題我們會持續的關注那正如委員所提到的因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於台灣出口管制的機制的更進一步的關切所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商"},{"start":637.256,"end":637.376,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":661.587,"end":684.975,"text":"好 因為時間有限喔本來我還要問到有關是這個你知道連醫護人才中國都來搶那像這個部分恐怕也要提醒這個國安局可能也要跟衛福部來討論最後的一分鐘喔我想要講的是中國會台的方式其實真的非常的多今天11月6號雙11馬上要來了我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶"},{"start":686.175,"end":692.938,"text":"普天蓋地的在台灣打廣告而且呢這到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴因為他現在用免運的方式這就是中國養套殺的一個策略我不知道局長同不同意他都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業等到他拿下這個產業之後他就來個殺無赦隨便讓我來開架"},{"start":711.967,"end":728.725,"text":"現在淘寶直接就在台灣打廣告然後就說免疫你所有的東西中國買不用運費這個衝擊到的是台灣的電商跟台灣的產業那麼這個算不算是一種中國的對台灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰或者是產業的入侵跟傷害"},{"start":729.686,"end":745.607,"text":"對這部分我們有在注意那正如委員所提到的他涉及到一些電商法規還有相關的一個管理那國安局因為是情報機關我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟夜管機關來做提醒請他們要多加注意跟取締好謝謝好謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":139,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時35分）謝謝主席，主席有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，林委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：局長早安。現在美國選舉正在開票當中，但我沒有要問你美選的結果，我其實比較關注的是2024年即將接近尾聲，我們知道全球好幾個主要的民主夥伴國家正在進行他們權力的改選，或者是權力結構的重組，包括法國國會、包括美國、包括日本。和我們今天題目比較相關的是，昨天有一個媒體報導指出我們的國安官員認為2024年結束之後，來到2025年，包括中國、俄羅斯、伊朗跟北韓，這幾個被全球民主國家視為威脅的四個主要國家將變得更團結，不知道對這樣的訊息，國安局有沒有相關的研擬？對於這篇報導，國安局的看法又是如何？是不是對全球來說，現在所面臨的是自由民主的陣營跟相對極權，而且威脅自由民主的國家變成是更為極端的二元對立，局長怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，針對委員所引述的報導，先說明一下，這不是國安局對外提供的觀點，但是對於各種媒體上的討論，我們都非常地注意，有列入我們的參考跟評估，特別要注意到的是接下來的地緣政治發展，到底有哪些的發展趨勢，我們必須要掌握那個脈動。確實正如委員所提到的，事實上在俄烏戰爭發生之後，國際社會在戰略面有比較傾向集團化的對立局勢，確實慢慢地在開展當中，隨著整個俄烏戰事的長期化，這樣的趨勢越來越明顯，這種趨勢不只是美國友盟他們在意識形態或價值理念對於烏克蘭的支持，也牽動到很多國際產業供應鏈的合作跟重組，所以你用這個角度來看的話，可以發現到確實在民主陣營跟非民主陣營之間，在各個方面，不管是地緣政治的角力、高科技的競爭以及在政治理念價值的差異性，確實有越來越兩極化對立的趨勢，正如委員所描述的。"],["林委員楚茵：如果是這樣的話，我們在安全的部分，不論是國防部，又或者是情報相關的單位當中，是不是都有做好相關的準備？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，對。因為在面對比較變動的區域安全環境，怎麼樣正確掌握相關的情資，確實非常地重要。就本局來講，我們在過去這一年多裡面，大概有幾個努力跟委員做個說明，第一個部分是我們內部有各個不同的單位、不同的部門，我們會做相關的情資整合，不管是人員情報或科技情報進來之後，我們可以有比較完整、全面地分析，以便能夠掌握情報的即時性跟正確性；第二個部分是我們也跟國際友盟不斷地加強情報交流跟合作，以便掌握相關發展的趨勢。"],["林委員楚茵：講到這個情報交流，當然還是要回到現在大家都在關注的美選。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["林委員楚茵：可是在美選真的投票出來之前，對於臺灣很多見縫插針的一些不利消息，到底是中國這邊放消息，還是在地協力者放消息？這個我不確定，但是就看到報上開始說了，對於臺灣面對美選的結果，有所謂押錯寶的押寶說，有認為說臺灣不瞭解狀況，又或者臺灣是棄子說等等各式各樣的說法存在，對於這種已經開始見縫插針，甚至於危害臺灣跟美國之間關係的說法已經傳出來的時候，國安局是不是也有把它視為一個監控情資，在做準備？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，因為就爭議訊息的散播來講，國安局有一個機制在做相關爭議訊息散播的網絡查找，委員所提到的是散播的網絡來源到底是怎麼運作的，其背後有一個很大的產業鏈及工作鏈，由中共方面來提供相關的情訊，再透過協力者來進行轉發。跟委員做一個數字上的說明，在聯合利劍─2024A的演習過程當中，相關爭議訊息的散播慢慢變成是數位化跟影音化，在2024A，我們看到TikTok的異常帳號才一百五十幾個，可是到了2024B，TikTok的異常帳號已經到了一千八百多個，所以你可以看到網絡……"],["林委員楚茵：所以短短只有幾個月？"],["蔡局長明彥：對！不斷地在擴散，這大概是第一個趨勢，跟委員報告。第二個趨勢，除了他的運作網絡以外，可以注意到的是他們議題的操作，在中共軍演期間，當時爭議訊息的操作主要是在疑軍，就是懷疑國軍或是我們的海巡沒有能力來應處中共的演習活動；到了現階段，因為開始進入了美選的高峰季，也確實像媒體相關的討論跟報導，有越來越多的爭議訊息是聚焦在質疑美國會不會持續地對臺灣提供堅定的安全承諾、臺灣對美國來採購軍品的必要性，以及那些軍品到底對於臺海防衛作戰有沒有用處的討論，我們都有持續地來關注這些爭議訊息，我們會判定爭議訊息對於社會衝擊的程度，即時通報到各單位，來對外說明跟應處。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為面對我們的民主友邦在進行整個權力的改組或者選舉的過程當中，中國最想的就是見縫插針，製造臺灣民心的動盪，有機會來喧擾一波、干擾一波，我想國安局應該都有在準備當中。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我們會。"],["林委員楚茵：除了透過民主陣營的選舉，或者是權力改組的過程當中所引發的擾動之外，其實中國對臺灣的滲透是一直在持續的。我想請局長看一下，最近媒體都已經報導，包括連法國媒體都在提醒臺灣，華為用獵人頭的方式來挖角台積電工程師。對於臺灣現在來講，我們都知道科技是非常重要的一環，即經濟科技，但是如果透過變身的方式，然後進入臺灣，把臺灣的科技人才或關鍵技術蠶食鯨吞，目前這個是國安局有注意到的樣態嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["林委員楚茵：過去我們看到的是一些關鍵技術被滲透，但是如果不只是關鍵技術，連台積電工程師都會被挖角走的時候，另外媒體也報導了，中共利用繞一圈的方式來臺灣租AI的算力，如果根據平面媒體的報導，目前臺灣AI算力用不到這麼多，那麼很顯然就是有人用借殼上市的方式來做AI算力的租借。我們都知道美國針對中國是要求美國企業不准投資中國，對於這些重要的高科技也予以摒除，但如果臺灣變成是中國洗產地的一環，那麼這該怎麼辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。這部分跟委員說明一下，國安局針對防範中共對臺灣的竊密挖角，我們有成立一個專案機制，有一些成果也利用這個機會跟委員報告一下，大概從2021年到現在，我們偵辦、查察的案件已經超過一百多件，移送檢方起訴的已經有四十幾件，另外相關的案件還在偵辦當中，所以起訴四十幾件，不代表只有這個數字，還會持續不斷地調查跟偵辦，這大概是第一部分。第二部分，針對這一些比較高科技的管制，經濟部有所謂的出口管制清單，這部分我們也持續跟其他的友好國家來交換意見，到底哪一些是屬於比較關鍵、敏感的技術，應該要列在清單裡面，讓我們跟國際友盟在這方面的管制能夠同步。","至於委員也有提到AI算力的部分，這一部分當然主管的是國科會，有公布一波一波的關鍵技術清單的項目跟名單，後續是不是要把AI這部分納進來，我們會持續跟業管機關來交換意見，尤其業管機關現在也正在盤點，是不是要進行AI基本法的修法，這個部分有沒有必要透過法律來進一步管制，我們有跟國科會在交換意見。"],["林委員楚茵：因為現在面對中國灰色地帶的騷擾、侵擾或者是作戰，事實上它的變形非常地大，也非常地廣，對於國安局，又或者是相關的單位來講，就好像我們過去講打詐，每個部門都涉入其中，現在我們防中國的入侵或者是防中國的滲透，也變成是這樣，似乎變成是每個部會都必須要緊密地相連。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["林委員楚茵：到底AI算力要不要納入，又或者是像華為，對於全球、美國都已經把它視為中國非常重要的一個擁有後門程式，侵擾全球安全的部分，那麼要不要放入，這恐怕也要請國安局跟其他各個部會來做緊密地聯繫。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["林委員楚茵：另外一個其實本席關注的就是，美國的參議員都已經發聲要怎麼樣協防臺灣，有關於管制協力者，我們要從源頭開始，現在國安局怎麼樣來協助臺灣廠商避免我們的晶片為華為所用，這個部分你們有了解嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於這個部分，我剛才也跟委員說明到，有一些中國的廠商，不管是透過人頭公司或代理公司在臺灣竊密挖角的，我們是有一個專案機制在進行相關的查察，也有一些起訴的進度出來，對於這個問題我們會持續的關注，正如委員所提到的，因為這一次的事件可能會影響到美國對於臺灣出口管制機制更進一步的關切，所以未來怎麼樣再跟美方在這部分有更進一步的磋商，讓我們的管制機制更完善，也是未來會努力的重點。還有一點是跟廠商的溝通，也就是廠商自己要有相關的自律機制，也必須要了解假如違反相關出口管制機制的話，廠商本身可能也會變成制裁的對象，所以跟廠商的溝通，我們會再跟經濟部門來做討論，看怎麼樣來強化這部分的作為。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為時間有限，本來我還要問到有關連醫護人才，中國都來搶，像這個部分恐怕也要提醒國安局，可能也要跟衛福部來討論。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["林委員楚茵：最後的1分鐘，我想要講的是中國惠臺方式真的非常多，今天11月6號，雙11馬上要來了，我不知道局長有沒有注意到淘寶鋪天蓋地的在臺灣打廣告，而且這到底是撿到便宜，還是免費的最貴，因為它現在用免運的方式，這就是中國養套殺的策略，我不知道局長同不同意？它都是用補貼的方式先侵害你在國內所應該要有的產業，等到他們拿下這個產業之後就來個殺無赦，就來隨便開價，現在淘寶直接就在臺灣打廣告，然後就說免運，你所有的東西中國買不用運費，這個衝擊到的是臺灣的電商跟臺灣的產業，那麼這個算不算是中國對臺灣產業的另外一種灰色作戰，或者是產業的入侵及傷害？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我們有在注意，正如委員所提到的，它涉及到一些電商、法規，還有相關的管理，國安局因為是情報機關，我們會把這些相關中共運作網路上電商的樣態來跟業管機關提醒，請他們要多加注意及取締。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，局長請回。","接下來我們請王定宇召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156522","url":"https://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那我們看全國跟我高雄全國來講的一二三級產業三級產業也佔了整個這個產值46.21%二級佔了52.76%那我高雄的就業人口一半的就業人口我高雄總人口270萬一半就業人口其中三級也就是服務業我佔了61%啊"},{"start":165.84,"end":191.231,"text":"我剛才在前言的時候我就講二級就工業我才36%而這二級我又聚焦在中油為主的化學材料中鋼為主的基本金屬以及日月光為主的電子零組件我看我三級服務業臺北市的三級服務業因為金融都聚焦在臺北所以他的服務業的產值就服務人口也多佔了他的產值也達到81%"},{"start":194.572,"end":221.153,"text":"台中的就業人口,第三級服務人口也佔了52%但是他有聚焦他的餐飲業好,那這個只是一個關鍵高雄服務業當中,你看右邊這張圖就好我在這邊的服務業從累積到我今年的第二季運輸倉儲業跟我的不動產業其實是佔大多10%以上零售業跟餐飲業次之佔9%以上"},{"start":222.974,"end":232.862,"text":"次之才是金融保險業那這當中有一項就是帶動我住宿的就是演唱會經濟如果有演唱會經濟的話平常我們住房率到58%有演唱會跟會長我的住房率可以到80%到90%好那這個是這張數據當中要去凸顯的好我的問題在哪裡高雄服役的問題"},{"start":246.933,"end":267.669,"text":"第一個缺乏人口紅利這是全國也是全世界的問題也好在高雄市有這個演唱會的經濟補助但是相較於臺北、台中我高雄市缺乏常駐型的商業服務業這就是等一下你們要協助輔導提升高雄市的方案在哪裡"},{"start":268.37,"end":296.015,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":296.015,"end":324.907,"text":"以高雄火車站來做劃分北高雄跟南高雄這在街道型的差別也很大如果說我把大型百貨跟商城視作商圈的話就是相對的對於消費者來說百貨也是一種消費場域的選擇對街道型的商圈當然會有排擠那這個一般傳統型的街道型商圈跟百貨型的商圈都存在著體驗服務品質的"},{"start":325.507,"end":327.17,"text":"二、邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員"},{"start":341.71,"end":362.14,"text":"好,那這個就是我要去凸顯說這個是我爬梳出來的高雄服務業瓶頸的第二項市場競爭家具區域商圈在街頭型跟這個百貨商圈的這樣彼此的一個落差第三個本席認為有缺忽略的品牌意識也應該要強化包裝跟銷售"},{"start":365.822,"end":380.734,"text":"第四、服務業勞動利益短缺及服務人才所以高雄需要重視的體驗價值的商業服務業往高端的方向去發展邁向國際性服務業的大層本席有建議這幾個建議我希望部長您能夠一個月內提出精進方案"},{"start":386.659,"end":399.191,"text":"所謂經濟方案要含預算要含期程而且以書面方式來回復本席我希望您的這個經濟方案當中有這幾項品牌化提升我商業競爭力第二個年輕化激發我創新的能量"},{"start":404.016,"end":422.252,"text":"第三、智慧化這其實你們有在做但是都是單點的做也就是您的報告當中所提的建立商業模式第四、特色化封入我商業的內涵第七、國際化的拓展商圈當然下面這也是我就整體要帶動"},{"start":423.633,"end":446.375,"text":"整個服務業,這個不是你的業務,但是呢,針對內需的消費力,高雄市應該要積極這個國際課員以飛行4小時內的航線為主要的推動對象,如新加坡、馬尼拉、日本、韓國檔等。當然這不是您的業務,但就我剛才所提的這五項的發展方向,提出一個院提出經濟方案,您怎麼看呢?"},{"start":447.272,"end":472.7,"text":"報告委員我想謝謝你的這個指教呼應你剛才所指導的這個內容之一到目前為止高雄你看到的就是你的演唱會辦的時候整個高雄就是生氣勃勃所以我會在這個會展這一方面來強化高雄的這個服務業也就是說我們在所有的"},{"start":473.999,"end":496.922,"text":"表演、文化的這些大型的這個會展以及商業的大型的會展吸引客人進入到高雄部長,我希望我是整體性的宏觀的來看我高雄的服務業因為既然要提升它的要改善它的低薪如果它的產值沒有大量的產生的時候就不可能有高薪的產生"},{"start":499.384,"end":520.657,"text":"我先不講金融業那其他的部分你如果在我整體的從這個問題的爬書部長您好好看一下我這個問題的爬書這是整個高雄市現有基礎上我們應該還要再延續的那我希望你經濟部做什麼在一個月內提出經濟方案可以嗎請你可以交代你的商業司司長在哪裡"},{"start":523.312,"end":543.186,"text":"市長可以嗎?一個月提出來,整體高雄的。是針對你的這個議題嘛,是不是?整體我整個高雄的方向。還是你要針對整個高雄的改善?我不只有會展,那個不是我要的而已。是整體。但是我建議啦,你參考我的意見比較有效。"},{"start":545.655,"end":574.402,"text":"部長,把你的意見列入,你的意見只是我其中一個,叫做品牌化、年輕化、智慧化、特惠化、國際化、當中國籍本席是以高雄市的高度,你如果只是會長,部長你如果真的要再繼續跟我討論的話,可以,來,我們來看那個叫做波段式,只有在會長的時間,演戰會跟會長的時間才達住防禦百分之八十到九十我平常是沒有的,百分之五十八"},{"start":575.422,"end":575.742,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝林大花委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時33分）有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，本席希望您聚焦在服務業；而服務業當中我聚焦在我們高雄。我們高雄市的服務業產值是2.58兆，整個高雄市包括工業、農業，服務業產值占了高雄市全產值的46%，而服務業的家數是15.5萬家，也就是高雄市的營利事業當中，有82%的家數是服務業。但是服務業的就業人口是全高雄市就業人口的61%，營業家數是82%，服務人口占高雄市61%，但是產值也占高雄市百分之四十六點多，相較於全國的數字，我們服務業及產值及就業人口占比是六成，這個數據所呈現的是什麼？也就是今天為什麼我要跟你討論高雄市的服務業型態多為小型、家數多、人力需求大，但人均產值是較低的，也就是低薪。","接下來針對商業服務業的部分，商業服務業在全國來講其實也是有這樣的問題，全國的服務業有128.94萬家，就業人口697.4萬，以零售、餐飲、物流、倉儲、生活服務為主，排除金融業。除了金融業之外，全部都是勞動力密集的行業，再加上少子化缺工，後疫情產業型態改變，是衝擊最大的族群。而服務業就業進入門檻低，臨時工或零工型態造成產業陷入低薪的惡性循環，更加速了勞動力的退場，缺工的問題也日趨嚴重，所以本席希望經濟部能夠針對壯世代的資源，如何結合壯世代的資源，能夠成為勞動部跟經濟部思考的關鍵政策。","我們來看全國跟我們高雄，全國來講的一、二、三級產業，三級產業也占整個產值46.21%，二級占52.76%；高雄總人口270萬，一半就業人口，其中三級也就是服務業占了61%。我剛才在前言的時候我就講，二級也就是工業才36%，而這二級我又聚焦在以中油為主的化學材料、中鋼為主的基本金屬，以及日月光為主的電子零組件。三級有服務業，臺北市的三級服務業，因為金融都聚焦在臺北，所以它的服務人口也多，產值也占了81%；臺中第三級的服務人口也占了52%，但是它有聚焦，也就是餐飲業。","這只是一個關鍵，在高雄的服務業當中，您看右邊這張圖就好。服務業累積到今年第二季，運輸及倉儲業跟不動產業其實是占10%以上，零售業跟餐飲業次之，占9%以上，再次之才是金融保險業，這當中有一項帶動我們的住宿，就是演唱會經濟，如果有演唱會經濟的話，平常住房率是58%，有演唱會跟會展的話，住房率可以到80%到90%，這是這張數據當中所要凸顯的。我的問題在哪裡？高雄服務業的問題，第一個，缺乏人口紅利，這是全國、也是全世界的問題。好在高雄市有演唱會的經濟補助，但是相較於臺北、臺中，高雄市缺乏常駐型的商業服務業，這就是等一下……你們要協助、輔導、提升高雄市的方案在哪裡？","第二個，市場競爭加劇，區域商圈發展出現很大的落差，這個商圈我又分為街頭型的商圈跟百貨型的商圈。我們高雄街道型的商圈共有31個，我們非常的團結，但是所呈現的是城鄉發展的差距，即使在城市內，北高雄跟南高雄的差別……以高雄火車站劃分北高雄跟南高雄，在街道型的部分差別也很大；如果我把大型百貨跟商城視作商圈的話，相對於消費者來說，百貨也是一種消費場域的選擇，對街道型的商圈當然會有排擠，一般傳統的街道型商圈跟百貨型的商圈都存在服務品質的落差。這邊要提醒的是，我的商圈數量竟然有31個；但是高雄現有的大型百貨商城有13間，未來兩年內，2025到2026還會加開5間的百貨！這個就是我要去突顯出我爬梳出來的高雄服務業瓶頸第二項，市場競爭加劇，區域商圈在街道型跟百貨商圈之間彼此的落差。","第三個，本席認為忽略了品牌意識，也應該要強化包裝跟銷售；第四個是服務業的勞動力短缺跟服務人才流失。所以高雄需要重視「體驗價值」的商業服務業，往高端的方向發展，邁向國際性的服務業大城！","本席有建議，這幾個建議我希望部長能夠一個月內提出精進方案，所謂精進方案要含預算、要含期程，而且以書面方式來回復本席，我希望您的精進方案當中有這幾項：第1，品牌化，提升我商業競爭力；第2，年輕化，激發我創新的能量；第3，智慧化，這其實你們有在做，但都是單點的做，也就是您的報告當中所提的建立商業模式；第4，特色化，豐富我商業的內涵；第5是國際化拓展商業。而下面的內容是我就整體要帶動整個服務業所做建議，這個不是你的業務，但是針對內需的消費力，高雄市應該要積極爭取國際客源，以飛行4小時內的航線為主要推動對象，如新加坡、馬尼拉、日本、韓國等，當然這不是您的業務，但就我剛才所提的這五項發展方向於一個月提出精進方案，您怎麼看呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，謝謝你的指教。呼應你剛才所指導的內容之一，到目前為止，我們看到辦演唱會的時候整個高雄生氣勃勃，所以我會在會展這一方面來強化高雄的服務業，也就是說，我們在所有的這些表演文化大型會展以及商業大型會展……"],["林委員岱樺：那個叫做波動式的經濟。"],["郭部長智輝：吸引客人進入高雄……"],["林委員岱樺：部長，我希望我是整體性地、宏觀地來看高雄的服務業。既然要提升改善他的低薪，如果它的產值沒有大量產生就不可能有高薪產生，我今天先不講金融業，關於其他的部分，部長，您好好看一下我整體問題的爬梳，這是整個高雄市在現有基礎上我們應該還要再延續的。那我希望經濟部做什麼？在一個月內提出精進方案可以嗎？你可以交代你的商業司，司長在哪裡？司長，可以嗎？一個月提出整體高雄的？好，謝謝，以上。"],["郭部長智輝：針對你的這個議題嘛，是不是？"],["林委員岱樺：整個高雄的方向。"],["郭部長智輝：還是你要針對整個高雄的改善？"],["林委員岱樺：不只有會展而已，那個不是我要的，是整體，部長，你可能要……"],["郭部長智輝：我建議你參考我的意見比較有效。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，把你的意見列入，你的意見只是我的其中一個，也就是品牌化、年輕化、智慧化、特色化、國際化當中的國際，本席是以高雄市的高度……"],["郭部長智輝：我們就針對委員的要求一個月以內提出來。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，你如果真的要再繼續跟我討論的話，可以，來！那個叫做波段式，只有在演唱會跟會展的時間住房率才達到百分之八十到九十，平常是沒有的，只有58%！"],["主席：好，林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羅委員長"},{"start":5.292,"end":33.593,"text":"局長長,在上個禮拜美國、烏克蘭跟北約其實都先後證實了這個朝鮮的已經派遣部隊到俄羅斯去做這個參戰那當然原判是北韓是為了要履行他跟這個俄羅斯剛剛簽訂的這個全面戰略夥伴關係條約也就是說一個國一國的如果因為入侵進入戰爭的這個狀態的話另一個國家就必須要提供這個軍事這個這個協助那當然北韓也得到他想要比如說糧食、武器等等"},{"start":34.893,"end":59.581,"text":"可是跟俄羅斯有簽署軍事互助協議的不單單只有北韓包含像白俄羅斯、伊朗跟中國都有簽訂在俄羅斯兵力嚴重短缺的狀況之下之前俄羅斯的媒體曾經點名要求這幾個國家對俄羅斯提供更進一步的協助我想請教"},{"start":60.881,"end":67.223,"text":"主要原因有北韓的一些戰略的盤算希望透過這樣的一個參戰來得到俄國更多方面的一個支持包括經濟的援助以及火箭技術的提供那可以了解"},{"start":88.911,"end":108.443,"text":"委員的關切就是擔心在北韓參戰之後那會不會有更多其他俄國的友盟來加入戰局那變成戰事會不斷的擴大變成一種區域的比較廣泛的一個戰事或是升溫的一個跡象那不過跟委員說明的是在現階段來講那因為在俄烏的戰場上"},{"start":111.045,"end":129.829,"text":"烏克蘭跟俄國都開始進入一種所謂的戰時經濟的狀態希望能夠來盡量的來支撐戰局那也在評估是不是在美國大選之後會有一些新的國際運輸的變化來影響整個俄烏戰局的後續發展那現階段看起來還沒有看到有其他的"},{"start":130.31,"end":133.492,"text":"北韓是一個很特殊的案例因為他長期以來就遭受到西方國家的經濟制裁所以他在權衡得失之後才會在這個時間點來加入俄烏的戰局"},{"start":150.635,"end":178.002,"text":"所以我們國人所擔心的比如說我們也很擔心中國來參戰嘛因為這樣子的話其實可以取得一個實戰的這個經驗我想國人應該也是非常擔心當然我剛才看到國防部也好或者是在國安局也好有提到就其實中國對這個部分基本上他是不想要去做評論也希望能夠保持一個低調的態度那當然我也看過一些報導就說中國可能也希望在這一局裡面能夠扮演一個類似"},{"start":179.162,"end":179.563,"text":"對,沒有這樣的跡象。"},{"start":196.176,"end":197.537,"text":"日本在前陣子的眾議院改選當中自民黨跟公民黨執政聯盟沒有辦法取得過半的席次"},{"start":212.665,"end":215.989,"text":"不管怎麼樣就算說11月11號舉辦這個國會舉辦這個首相這個選舉時破帽如果真的順利連任的話我想這個日本還是會出現一些不同的一些走向可能還是會出現新的一個證據所以我們比較擔心就是說當然我也看到就是說"},{"start":234.808,"end":256.864,"text":"國安局跟國防部的這個報告就是說日本友台的態度基本上是這基調是不變的可是問題是畢竟自民黨過去友台這個方向會不會因為這個潮小野大會面臨不同的局面雖然是友台可是台日之間的關係會不會有一些微妙的這個變化會不會有"},{"start":259.996,"end":282.411,"text":"對,就台日關係的發展來講,那剛剛委員也提到我們在口頭報告的時候已經有說明因為主要的政黨包括自民黨以及主要的在野黨包括立憲民主黨以及主要的另外一個重要的在野黨包括日本維新會他們在選舉過程當中對於台日關係都有一些討論跟論述那基本的主軸都還是在於台日安全有緊密的聯動性"},{"start":283.752,"end":301.484,"text":"那在這樣的一個基調之下那也許日本的政局因為政黨聯合內閣的組合會有一些不同的新的政黨加入這個團隊但是你去仔細的檢視各個政黨基本的立場還有基調大概對於維持跟台灣的關係都有一個非常長期的一個相關的一個主張"},{"start":302.604,"end":317.011,"text":"指向他們的國家安保戰略裡面第一次就來定義台日這個關係就是說台灣是日本極重要的友人那對於中國他的定義是日本前所未有之最大戰略挑戰"},{"start":318.972,"end":338.266,"text":"是一個比較客氣的一個說法那當然像這個他這個定義是全政治才做這個定義會不會因為我們也想說這個因為新政局的這個產生這個前面所謂的台日之間的關係會不會有所改變那當然我想的改變並不是說他友台這個態度改變"},{"start":341.869,"end":361.408,"text":"對．"},{"start":361.668,"end":389.297,"text":"對,基本上去檢視日本政壇的各個政黨的一個基本立場剛有提到了在對台政策的部分是希望加強跟台灣在各個領域的合作能夠進一步的來深化那也去重視到台海安全可能對於日本自身安全產生的一個影響所以對於台海問題非常的關注這是為什麼日本在很多包括雙邊或多邊的這種安全或高層會談當中都持續的去表述對於台海核穩的重視那這大概是第一部分跟委員說明"},{"start":390.157,"end":409.328,"text":"那對於這些日本政黨對於中國的關係會不會影響台日的關係目前看起來倒不至於因為在對中國的關係來看日本是希望能夠穩定穩定跟中國的關係而不是說去加強所謂的戰略面或其他領域更深入的合作他們是在做一種戰略的管理"},{"start":409.688,"end":438.339,"text":"所以我們可以預期也許在10天之後的APEC峰會會有中日元首的一個互動那我們所理解到的是討論的議題大概都還是聚焦在他們自己雙邊的議題包括日本的公民在中國大陸的人身安全的問題以及日本的相關的水產進口的問題所以我們看到的這種中日議題主要都還是在這種比較技術面或經貿面的一個討論沒有涉及到他們更深入在安保或戰略面的一個合作"},{"start":439.72,"end":458.954,"text":"石破茂一直有提到一個構想就是亞洲版北約那亞洲版北約說實在我們所看到美國也好印度也好基本上他們是不支持的美國甚至還說為時過早印太還沒有準備"},{"start":459.614,"end":480.959,"text":"甚至我們看到日本的官員態度也是非常的保守他說還需要中長期的規劃應該來先強化美日同盟當然時破茂他會提亞洲版北約就是因為他認為說近日烏克蘭就是明日東亞他會有這個想法就希望說我們亞洲也必須要有一個軍事防衛的一個聯盟可是看起來這個是"},{"start":482.379,"end":505.485,"text":"不可行,我們是覺得種種的客觀的因素,比如說不管是在亞洲地方有主權的爭議或地緣條件等等,好像這個亞洲版北約我想要推行真的不太容易。那可是基於這個,我們畢竟還是需要,基本上我們以台灣來講的話,我們還是需要有一個類似亞洲的軍事防衛的聯盟。"},{"start":507.725,"end":537.058,"text":"局長你怎麼看,如果說我們要怎麼來運用這防衛合作的這個架構目前現有的?對,那就石破首相他確實有提出亞洲版北約的一個構想那也正如委員所提到的,因為這個構想還沒有一些細部的規劃所以自民黨內部也成立一個專責的小組希望針對日本對外的安保政策能夠再有一個比較深入跟全面的一個討論那就亞洲版北約後續的發展可能主要的重點還是在於日本怎麼樣來加強跟美國在這一方面強化合作的磋商"},{"start":537.958,"end":560.018,"text":"讓美日同盟加N,讓美日同盟可以變成一個加N的機制,有更多的國家來加入相關的安保或相關議題的一個合作那除了美日同盟加N以外,現有的Quad還有現有的AUKUS也都是多邊合作的機制那怎麼樣把這些小多邊的合作機制能夠串成一個區域在安保議題合作的網絡"},{"start":560.638,"end":560.658,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":576.496,"end":602.157,"text":"也許台灣並不是直接加入這些每日主導的小多邊的機制,不是直接參加,但是還是可以透過各種的管道來針對這些機制所關切的安全議題,海洋安全議題或是相關產業鏈安全的議題來交換意見。所以在目前為止亞洲還是沒有辦法像北約這樣子,就是有一個真正的一個軍事聯盟,因為我們可能也沒有辦法組成一個"},{"start":605.08,"end":630.299,"text":"北約還是有它的歷史背景在冷戰的對抗氣氛之下有一個非常緊密的軍事它是一個軍事同盟的合作那再加上文化還有價值理念的一個共同性那以及彼此之間沒有那麼多的領土爭議所以讓北約可以幾十年來有一個穩定的防衛機制來因應各種威脅挑戰那亞洲部分目前的條件可能還有一些需要在透過各國來討論來建構"},{"start":631.88,"end":632.341,"text":"北韓投入的兵力規模"},{"start":650.401,"end":654.904,"text":"北韓這次投入的部隊是它的風暴軍團,年紀都比較輕,二十幾歲。這個風暴軍團主要都是步兵的士兵,可能從事的是城鎮作戰跟敵後滲透的相關活動。所以他們的戰場上的角色大概是處於這個部分。"},{"start":674.497,"end":677.099,"text":"北韓是比較沒有那麼多經驗沒有那麼熟悉的所以對於北韓的戰場角色可能還要在後續來觀察"},{"start":695.669,"end":719.486,"text":"所以南韓他所擔心的可能會擴大到東亞,可能目前還看不到是不是?對,這個部分確實有這樣的關切,他的關切角度是,假如北韓跟俄國有這樣的一個同盟軍事合作的話,萬一未來北韓要在朝鮮半島新興的話,俄國會不會來支持北韓?那這是大概南韓的國安部門跟情報部門目前關注的主要的重點。"},{"start":721.808,"end":741.853,"text":"當然這都是,所以現在世界上非常的動亂,全球都非常的動亂,那台灣處在一個地緣政治上這麼重要的一個位置,所以我們還是要特別的注意,我們比較擔心的是聯動性,這聯動性像剛才我有提到的,像南韓很擔心就是說會擴及到"},{"start":742.493,"end":742.714,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":96,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時22分）謝謝主席。有請國安局蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。羅委員早。"],["羅委員美玲：局長早。局長，在上禮拜美國、烏克蘭跟北約其實都先後證實了朝鮮已經派遣部隊到俄羅斯去參戰，當然研判北韓是為了要履行他跟俄羅斯剛剛簽訂的全面戰略夥伴關係條約，也就是一國如果因為入侵，進入戰爭的狀態，另外一個國家就必須要提供軍事協助，當然北韓也得到他想要的，比如糧食、武器等等。可是跟俄羅斯有簽署軍事互助協議的不單單只有北韓，包含像白俄羅斯、伊朗跟中國都有簽訂，在俄羅斯兵力嚴重短缺的狀況之下，之前俄羅斯的媒體也曾經點名要求這幾個國家對俄羅斯來提供更進一步的協助。我想請教局長，未來會不會這樣子逐漸就形成一個軍事聯盟的趨勢？像白俄羅斯、伊朗跟中國會不會也會類似像北韓這樣子來參與軍事活動？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我想這次北韓參與俄烏戰場，主要原因有北韓的一些戰略的盤算，希望透過這樣的一個參戰來得到俄國更多方面的支持，包括經濟的援助以及火箭技術的提供。我可以了解委員的關切，就是擔心在北韓參戰之後，會不會有更多其他俄國的友盟來加入戰局，戰事會不斷地擴大，變成一種區域比較廣泛的戰事，或是升溫的一個跡象。不過跟委員說明的是，在現階段來講，因為在俄烏的戰場上，烏克蘭跟俄國都開始進入一種所謂的戰時經濟的狀態，希望能夠儘量地來支撐戰局，也在評估是不是在美國大選之後，會有一些新的國際因素的變化來影響整個俄烏戰局的後續發展。現階段看起來還沒有看到有其他俄國支持的國家、友好的國家要加入戰局，因為一旦加入戰局之後，第一個會面臨到的問題就是來自於歐美西方國家非常強力的經濟制裁，北韓是一個很特殊的案例，因為它長期以來就遭受到西方國家的經濟制裁，所以它在權衡得失之後，才會在這個時間點來加入俄烏的戰局。"],["羅委員美玲：我們國人所擔心的是，我們也很擔心中國參戰，因為這樣子其實可以取得實戰的經驗，我想國人應該也是非常擔心，當然我剛才看到國防部也好，或者是國安局也好，有提到其實中國對這個部分，基本上他是不想要去做評論，也希望能夠保持一個低調的態度，當然我也看過一些報導，就是中國可能也希望在這一局裡面能夠扮演一個類似和事佬的角色，提升他在國際上的地位。所以目前如果以局長的看法，我們所擔心中國會不會參戰，其實到目前為止，是沒有看到任何的跡象就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，沒有這樣的跡象。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好，瞭解。再來要提到的就是日本，日本前陣子眾議院改選，自民黨跟公明黨執政聯盟沒有辦法取得過半的席次，所以不管怎麼樣，就算是11月11號國會舉辦首相選舉，石破茂如果真的順利連任的話，日本還是會出現一些不同的走向和新的政局。我們比較擔心的是……當然我也看到國安局跟國防部的報告，日本友臺的態度，這個基調是不變的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員美玲：可是問題是，畢竟自民黨過去友臺的這個方向會不會因為朝小野大而面臨到不同的局面？雖然是友臺，但是臺日之間的關係會不會有一些微妙的變化？會不會有？"],["蔡局長明彥：就臺日關係的發展來講，剛剛委員也提到，我們在口頭報告的時候已經說明了，因為主要的政黨，包括自民黨，以及主要的在野黨，包括立憲民主黨，以及另外一個重要的在野黨，包括日本維新會，他們在選舉過程當中，對於臺日關係都有一些討論跟論述，基本的主軸都還是在臺日安全有緊密的連動性，在這樣的一個基調之下，也許日本的政局因為政黨聯合內閣的組合會有一些不同的、新的政黨加入這個團隊。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["蔡局長明彥：但是你去仔細地檢視各個政黨基本的立場還有基調，大概對於維持跟臺灣的關係都有一個非常長期的相關主張。"],["羅委員美玲：之前在他們國家安保戰略裡面，這是他們第一次定義臺日關係，指出臺灣是日本「極重要的友人」，對於中國的定義是，日本「前所未有的最大戰略挑戰」，「挑戰」是一個比較客氣的說法。當然，這是它前陣子才作出的定義，新政局的產生對前面所謂臺日之間的關係會不會有所改變？當然，我講的「改變」並不是說它友臺的這個態度改變，而是有些合作的步調會不會放緩？像過去我們覺得彼此之間的關係是非常close，這點會不會因為有些在野黨擔心中國的態度跟臺灣之間的關係而稍微疏離？本席想要提的是這個部分。"],["蔡局長明彥：基本上，去檢視日本政壇各個政黨的基本立場，剛剛有提到在對臺政策的部分是希望加強跟臺灣在各個領域的合作能進一步地深化，也重視到臺海安全可能對日本自身安全所產生的影響，所以對於臺海問題非常關注，這也是為什麼日本在很多，包括雙邊或多邊這種安全或高層會談當中都持續去表述對於臺海和穩的重視，這大概是第一部分要跟委員說明的。","這些日本政黨對中國的關係會不會影響臺日的關係，目前看起來倒不至於，因為在對中國的關係來看，日本是希望能夠穩定跟中國的關係，而不是去加強所謂戰略面或其他領域更深入的合作，他們是在做一種戰略的管理，所以我們可以預期，也許10天之後的APEC峰會會有中日元首的互動，我們所理解到的是，討論的議題大概都還是聚焦在他們自己雙邊的議題，包括日本公民在中國大陸的人身安全問題，以及日本相關水產進口的問題，所以我們看到的中日議題主要都還是在這種比較技術面或經貿面的討論，沒有涉及到他們更深入在安保或戰略面的合作。假如有那種情形，當然會影響到臺日關係，但是目前來看並沒有。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，瞭解。再來就是石破茂一直有提到一個構想，就是亞洲版北約。對於亞洲版北約，說實在的我們所看到的就是，不管是美國也好、印度也好，基本上他們是不支持的，美國甚至還說為時過早，印太還沒有準備好。甚至我們看到日本官員的態度也是非常保守，說是還須要中長期的規劃，應該先強化美日同盟。","當然，石破茂會提亞洲版北約就是他認為今日烏克蘭就是明日東亞，他會有這個想法，就是希望我們亞洲也必須要有一個軍事防衛的聯盟。可是看起來，這是不可行的，我們是覺得，衡諸種種客觀因素，譬如說不管是在主權，亞洲地方有主權的爭議，或是地緣條件等等，像這個亞洲版北約要推行，我在想真的是不太容易。可是基於這個……我們畢竟還是需要……基本上以我們臺灣來講，我們還是需要一個類似亞洲的軍事防衛聯盟，對此局長怎麼看？如果說……我們要怎麼運用目前現有的這個防衛合作架構？"],["蔡局長明彥：石破首長確實有提出亞洲版北約的構想，也正如委員所提到的，因為這個構想還沒有一些細部的規劃，所以自民黨內部也成立一個專責的小組，希望針對日本對外的安保政策能再有一個比較深入跟全面的討論。就亞洲版北約後續的發展，可能主要的重點還是在於日本怎麼加強跟美國在這方面強化合作的磋商。"],["羅委員美玲：就是美日同盟。"],["蔡局長明彥：讓美日同盟可以變成一個加N的機制，有更多國家加入相關的安保或相關議題的合作。除了美日同盟加N以外，現有的Quad還有AUKUS也都是多邊合作的機制，怎麼樣把這些小多邊的合作機制串成一個區域在安保議題上合作的網絡或許是未來可以思考或討論的方向。不過，整個過程當中，美日同盟還是……"],["羅委員美玲：那臺灣會成為其中的plus嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：就……"],["羅委員美玲：像Quad，我們一直都在很低調地參與，像AUKUS這類的，我們有辦法變成他們的另外一個plus嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：也許臺灣並不是直接加入這些美日主導的小多邊機制，但是還是可以透過各種管道針對這些機制所關切的安全議題、海洋安全議題，或是相關產業鏈的安全議題來交換意見。"],["羅委員美玲：所以到目前為止，亞洲還是沒有辦法像北約這樣，就是有一個真正的軍事聯盟，我們可能也沒有辦法組成一個部隊之類的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。北約還是有它的歷史背景，在冷戰的對抗氣氛之下，它有一個非常緊密的軍事同盟的合作，再加上文化、價值理念的共同性，以及彼此之間沒有那邊多的領土爭議，讓北約可以幾十年來有一個穩定的防衛機制，以因應各種威脅挑戰。亞洲部分目前的條件可能還有一些須要再透過各國來討論、來建構合作條件的過程。"],["羅委員美玲：局長，我剛才忘了問一個問題，就是澤倫斯基有提到北韓的參戰是世界大戰第一步的開始，依您來看，你覺得會有這個趨勢嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想目前北韓投入的兵力規模還是在初步的階段，這是第一個；第二個，它在戰場上的角色也必須再進一步討論，因為我們所知道的是，北韓這次投入的部隊是它的風暴軍團，年紀都比較輕，就是二十幾歲，這個風暴軍團主要是步兵的士兵，可能從事的是城鎮作戰跟敵後滲透的相關活動，所以他們在戰場上的角色大概是處於這個部分。不過，也因為語言的隔閡，讓北韓的士兵未來在俄烏戰場上到底能夠發揮多大的功能，這部分還要再繼續關注。尤其是俄烏戰爭現在有一些高科技的發展趨勢，包括無人機的運用，這一塊北韓是比較沒有那麼多經驗、沒有那麼熟悉的，所以北韓在戰場上的角色可能後續還要再觀察。"],["羅委員美玲：南韓擔心可能會擴大到東亞，目前可能還看不到，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個部分確實有這樣的關切，它的關切角度是，假如北韓跟俄國有這樣一個同盟的軍事合作，萬一未來北韓要在朝鮮半島興釁的話，俄國會不會支持北韓，這是南韓國安部門跟情報部門目前關注的主要重點。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。當然這都是……現在世界上非常動亂，全球都非常動亂。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員美玲：臺灣處在一個地緣政治上這麼重要的位置，我們還是要特別注意，我們比較擔心的是連動性。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員美玲：這個連動性就像剛才我所提到的，像南韓很擔心會擴及到東亞，東亞有事臺灣當然一樣會有事。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員美玲：不是臺灣有事，然後全世界有事，而是烏克蘭有事，也許全世界都會有事，我們比較擔心的是擴散的這個，這個可能是大家要特別注意的部分。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們後續會密注相關地緣政治的發展，謝謝委員提醒。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員，局長請回。","接下來陳永康、陳永康，陳永康委員不在。","接下來我們請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-10","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","馬文君","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林岱樺","黃仁","陳永康","劉建國","羅智強","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-11-06"],"gazette_id":"1139301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、國防部部長報告「北韓派兵加入俄烏戰爭、南北韓衝突及日本眾議院改\n選，對台灣在地緣戰略地位之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139301_00005"}}},{"id":"156519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b367300d5b4eae7d654fa50054efaf5dec98f8113ce54f74c60b9d8b43f1d7f7b919a22b82dabb035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:23:27 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我的這個在企業上面所聽到的"},{"start":213.083,"end":213.263,"text":"邀請經濟部部長．"},{"start":235.79,"end":261.547,"text":"在現在雖然美國大選還沒有正式結果出來我會問這個議題因為在現在這個時間點我們所看到的確實川普的一個領先幅度比較高所以我覺得我們還是要讓我們台灣的企業有些穩定軍心就是說不論是誰當選基本上它就是一個政治的議題選舉的議題"},{"start":264.051,"end":287.817,"text":"對於在整個晶片產業鏈當中影響不會很大甚至所謂收保護費這個知識體大不是一個總統說我要收保護費就可以收保護費那請問保護費的意義是什麼意涵是什麼就像剛剛部長所說的當你企業有這個需求的時候你要收什麼保護費"},{"start":289.721,"end":308.837,"text":"對不對?企業是有需求的阿美國企業有這個需求大家都在排單都在等著我們給單我們還用這樣的所謂晶片護國神山要去打國家隊世界盃所以我覺得這個本來對於我們來講我為什麼要用這個議題來詢問重點我們要穩住軍情"},{"start":312.66,"end":338.551,"text":"我現在問國發會主委因為主委也是從企業界轉到我們這個所謂的行政團隊那麼在你的看法呢我先跟委員說明一下如果他收保護費受到傷害的是Apple、NVIDIA、AMD、Intel這些國際大廠所以川普是生意人他不至於去收保護費造成他"},{"start":339.171,"end":354.016,"text":"與美國產品受到更高的成本,漲價出來,影響到民意。第二個部分,台積電當年有配合它進到了亞利桑那去生產,所以有三個廠對美國的安定已經存在了。所以我認為這是一個選舉語言,"},{"start":355.797,"end":384.244,"text":"因為他要實質實施會比較困難反倒是他會對中國企業開徵60%的稅然後逐年會減少對中國的進口這個反而對台商是一個好的機會第二個部分是他會擴大像類似對華為等等這種公司的禁令這個禁令對台商也是一個比較好的機會所以我比較正向去看這件事然後我們也會鼓勵台商勇於抓住機會去發展更好的未來"},{"start":385.264,"end":405.136,"text":"謝謝主委,其實這個就是我們今天的重點了因為我們通常在媒體上都看到所謂的要收保護費可是我們沒有去看到川普在另外一個區塊對於中國企業所做的限制甚至他在一個稅的部分要提高60%"},{"start":406.957,"end":430.316,"text":"那麼如果相較之下在於收保護費在我們的評斷這根本就是不可行因為這是一個市場趨勢也就像我們主委所說的不是只有台積電啊要說保護費你可以說我只要說台積電的保護費嗎不可能啊它所涉及的是一些世界大廠"},{"start":431.377,"end":457.678,"text":"那麼所影響的層面絕對美國會先受傷所以這知識體大可是對於中國他的標的非常的清楚對於中國的企業他已經說了他要去做一些限制甚至要提高關稅這個部分他講得非常的明確所以我們都認為在今天這個主題當中我們希望"},{"start":458.803,"end":470.457,"text":"如何讓我們的產業界更安心尤其今天大家開始關注的都是美國大選到底是誰當選當選之後會不會影響到台灣的一個經濟和中國的經濟"},{"start":475.723,"end":496.66,"text":"所以在川普目前大幅領先的狀態我才會用這個議題來詢問我們的部長跟主委因為我們的部長跟主委剛剛好都是從企業界非常非常資深而且在領域當中都非常有成就的轉戰到我們的行政"},{"start":497.685,"end":525.879,"text":"所以在這樣的前提之下我們希望藉著你們在企業的經驗跟行政來做結合我們不希望像我們剛剛所提的報告所謂的中小企業他未來的整個青年低薪還有如何做傳產的振興這些如果只有像我們書面他做不了真的是做不了我們必須結合你們兩位在第一線"},{"start":527.02,"end":546.859,"text":"在第一線曾經有的經驗結合進來不能再用制式的一些行政理念如果可以的話我們不用每一次都在談論這個議題好 謝謝好 所以再麻煩我們的部長跟主委麻煩你們了 謝謝好 非常謝謝陳廷輝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時23分）謝謝召委，請部長還有主委。"],["主席：請郭部長跟劉主委。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，今天大家都在關注美國大選，到底是賀錦麗當選還是川普？我想這兩位當選，現在可能對於臺灣比較大的影響，大家會比較關注的是川普在選前的那一番發言，所謂的台積電奪走了美國百分之一百的晶片事業，所以他認為要向臺灣、台積電來收保護費這樣的議題。你認為這個議題是真的議題還是假的議題，還是它就是一個選舉過程的一段話而已？因為你們兩個都是產業界過來的，由你們的角度來回答。我想先請部長回答。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。這個命題是在選舉之間所提出來的，在這個期間、還沒有確定之前，我們只能討論，就是比較不公開的來討論，以因應這個命題。如果你要問我，我是不是可以用個人的想法？好像不太行用個人想法來回復你的問題。不過以我們在企業界的觀點來看，臺灣的經濟跟美國的經濟其實是互補的，就川普在選前提出的這個命題，其實它是互補的，臺灣在晶片供應鏈上非常的強，但是對供應鏈設計的部分，美國大概占全球供應鏈的7、80%。所以，如果有這樣的現象發生的時候，我相信對美國的業者並不見得是一件好事，這是第一點。","第二點，我們看到台積電在Arizona設廠，那個廠到現在已經完全試產成功了，所以下個月他們將會有一個很好的ceremony要發出。我們在看，不管美國的新總統是誰，應該都會開出對台積電最有利的條件，畢竟台積電在先進製程上，所謂的先進製程，大家都知道是7奈米以下的製程，幾乎是它一人的武林，所以你再怎麼限制，都沒有辦法限制它的發展，因為市場有強烈的需求。所以不管誰當選，我在企業上所聽到的跟我所發現的，對臺灣應該……特別是對台積電應該影響不大。"],["陳委員亭妃：影響不大？包括他所謂的可能會撤銷晶片法案，其實很多人都認為這根本就是假議題，因為也不是一黨說了算、一個人說了算。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：為什麼現在美國大選還沒有正式結果出來，我會問這個議題？因為在現在這個時間點，我們看到確實川普的領先幅度比較高，所以我覺得我們還是要讓臺灣企業穩定軍心。也就是不論是誰當選，基本上就是一個政治的議題、選舉的議題，對於整個晶片產業鏈，影響不會很大，甚至所謂的收保護費，這是茲事體大，不是一個總統說我要收保護費就可以收保護費，請問保護費的意義是什麼、意涵是什麼？就像剛剛部長所說的，當企業有這個需求的時候，你要收什麼保護費？對不對？企業是有需求的啊！美國企業有這個需求，大家都在排單，都在等著我們給單，我們還用這樣的晶片護國神山要去打國家隊世界杯，我為什麼要用這個議題來詢問？重點是我們要穩住軍心。","我現在問國發會主委，因為主委也是從企業界轉到行政團隊，那麼你的看法呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：先跟委員說明一下。如果他收保護費，受到傷害的是Apple、NVIDIA、AMD、Intel這些國際大廠，川普是生意人，他不至於去收保護費，造成美國產品受到更高的成本而漲價，影響到民意。第二個部分，台積電當年有配合他進到亞利桑那去生產，有三個廠，對美國的安定已經存在了。所以我認為這是一個選舉語言，因為他要實質實施會比較困難；反倒是他會對中國企業開徵60%的稅，然後會逐年減少對中國的進口，這反而對臺商是一個好的機會。第三個部分是他會擴大類似像對華為等等這種公司的禁令，這個禁令對臺商也是一個比較好的機會，所以我比較正向去看這件事，我們也會鼓勵臺商勇於抓住機會，去發展更好的未來。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝主委，其實這就是我們今天的重點，因為我們在媒體上都看到所謂的要收保護費，可是我們沒有看到川普在另外一個區塊對於中國企業所做的限制，甚至在稅的部分他要提高至60%。相較之下，收保護費這件事在我們的評斷，這根本就是不可行，因為這是一個市場趨勢，就像主委所說的，不是只有台積電，要收保護費，你可以說我只要收台積電的保護費嗎？不可能啊！它所涉及的是一些世界大廠，所影響的層面，美國絕對會先受傷，所以這是茲事體大。可是對於中國，他的標的非常清楚，對於中國的企業，他已經說了，他要去做一些限制，甚至要提高關稅，這個部分他講得非常地明確。","所以在今天這個主題當中，我們都希望讓我們的產業界更安心，尤其今天大家關注的都是美國大選到底是誰當選？當選之後會不會影響到臺灣的經濟和中國的經濟？在川普目前大幅領先的狀態，我才會用這個議題來詢問部長跟主委，因為部長跟主委剛好都是在企業界非常、非常資深，而且在領域當中都非常有成就，轉戰到行政團隊。在這樣的前提之下，我們希望藉由你們在企業的經驗跟行政來結合，我們不希望像剛剛所提的報告，中小企業的未來、整個青年低薪問題，還有如何做傳產的振興，這些如果只有像書面所提到的，他做不了，真的是做不了，必須結合你們兩位在第一線曾經有的經驗，不能再用制式的行政理念。如果可以的話，我們不用每一次都在談論這個議題，所以再麻煩部長跟主委，麻煩你們了，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝陳亭妃委員，部長跟主委請先回座。林委員稍微等一下，我們確定一下議事錄。","我們先確定議事錄。請問在場委員，針對上次會議議事錄，有無錯誤？（無）沒有錯誤，議事錄確定。","下一位請林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-10","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","林岱樺","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","鄭天財Sra 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