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那個我們現在就宣告我們現在開始開會那我們就是謝謝所有的我們立法院的同仁還有我們行政機關的代表教育部同仁辛苦了今天真的是非常長的一天然後呢 謝謝部長"},{"start":1703.243,"end":1708.805,"text":"那我們現在就是來進行黨團協商那我們的主題就是我們教育及文化委員會報告併案審查委員范雲等17人擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案等30案還有經院會進覆二讀與相關提案併案協商的行政院函請審議等5案的黨團協商那我想我們因為現在還有直播嘛所以我們還是要介紹在場的委員跟行政機關的列席的一個代表"},{"start":1732.773,"end":1741.199,"text":"委員范雲等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員陳培鈺等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭玉琴等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭玉琴等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員張雅琳等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭玉琴等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員郭�"},{"start":1762.876,"end":1763.637,"text":"法務部內政部專委主席總署主席總署"},{"start":1776.338,"end":1801.132,"text":"好 謝謝還有衛福部新建司的衛福部新建司好 非常感謝還有衛福部的社家屬好不好好 謝謝大家那我們現在大家就開始來進行我們今天的協商我們希望今天真的是能有一個結果我想學生輔導法能夠順利如果在我們這一次的會期當中通過是全民之福了那我們先來宣讀我們現在協商的我們現在先來討論一下"},{"start":1806.836,"end":1807.756,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商委員"},{"start":1822.284,"end":1841.048,"text":"好 那我們現在說法的進度當中我們現在是不是我們來幫大家回憶一下我們在7月4號跟8號已經完成足條審查那我們部分的條文是保留送協商然後呢我們另外在7月11號就在今天之前我們有個黨團協議的我們的結論幫大家複習一下第4條跟第5條我們是修正通過那我們等一下我們第4條跟第5條是修正通過那我們基本上面是7-1 10"},{"start":1852.13,"end":1869.043,"text":"等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七條及增定第十條之一等19人擬具第十一、十二及第十七"},{"start":1881.035,"end":1881.936,"text":"第四條附帶決議有關薪資的部分是重中之重"},{"start":1904.19,"end":1904.31,"text":"7-1增订的7-1"},{"start":1924.974,"end":1926.876,"text":"7-1大家翻過來好不好先走一下7-1好我們范雲委員跟陳培宇委員我們現場還有萬美雲林委員也到場了來7-1我們先討論7-1好來我想"},{"start":1940.086,"end":1941.527,"text":"教育部的教育部長"},{"start":1955.498,"end":1956.279,"text":"主張的不是說會讓家屬遺族覺得很悲痛"},{"start":1978.118,"end":1978.298,"text":"董事長董事長"},{"start":1993.365,"end":1994.447,"text":"等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":2009.127,"end":2018.91,"text":"而且我們那個部長也是相關的領域出身的覺得他一定會來做所以我就不堅持一定要放在條文裡面那我這邊有個附帶決議那就是我剛所講的就是希望參考國際經驗然後針對學生身心健康不利的系統性因素所以不是要做過去衛福部的那種個案回溯然後覺得無法執行的部分那我也希望教育部是獨立做"},{"start":2037.656,"end":2061.793,"text":"為服務做好的可是我們是在國教環境也許學校升學壓力各方面就是都有一些不利的因素那當然這次學輔法增加了就是專業輔導的人力的話也許我們可以慢慢改善我想這種系統性的研究做了之後我們未來相關的學輔資源那如何總不能一直增加這個部分然後不改善"},{"start":2062.233,"end":2062.413,"text":"陳佩玉委員"},{"start":2085.438,"end":2106.52,"text":"好 謝謝主席教育部應該知道七之一我非常非常的堅持但是剛剛主席已經提醒了沒有條文但是後續的附帶決議我們可以討論我還是要再次強調我的堅持其來有自除了認同范雲委員剛說的系統性的調查在我自己的版本裡面我寫的也是系統性的因素"},{"start":2107.381,"end":2134.275,"text":"那因為這一次我知道其實一併調整了人力調整了薪資也就是說我們期待在現場的資源更充足的情況下我們的想像可能是輔導的量能可以提升可以讓學生相關的複雜的負面的因素可以降低但我們還是要面對一個困境其實在前一個版本的學復法裡面一直到現在人員都還沒有到位"},{"start":2135.015,"end":2146.831,"text":"但現在這個版本的學輔法修完到底我們多久可以到位其實我們並不真的知道我相信教育部雖然有想像、有規劃、有承諾但來自另外一個困境其實是人從哪裡來"},{"start":2148.482,"end":2157.129,"text":"光是現場的正式教師、代理老師、特教老師、特教助理都已經有困難更何況輔導老師但是因為孩子們的自殘的行為越來越多而且樣態越來越複雜那家長的狀況也越來越多所以我才主張我們可不可以有系統性的死因回溯調查我當然知道有非常多的困難"},{"start":2170.12,"end":2193.748,"text":"可是我不認為我們台灣的學術研究團隊或者是台灣的專業團隊沒有辦法支持支撐起這個相關的專業研究跟調查我認為是有能量的我相信范雲委員來自學界也一定相信台灣的學術界絕對有這個能量不然衛福部現在不會做0到6歲但如果這一次真的不能入法我必須要再次拜託附帶決議我認為我們要認真面對這件事情悲傷的例子已經很多我就不再說"},{"start":2199.79,"end":2220.825,"text":"但是我想要舉一個近期的案例其實連我自己都非常的震撼我自己的小孩的學校最近也又出事了而我們身為家長第一時間收到這個訊息我們當然得花很多力氣跟我們自己的孩子溝通我也個人以家長的名義去跟學校確保學校的輔資資源是夠的但是我要談的是"},{"start":2222.206,"end":2248.728,"text":"這個孩子他在斷考前後出了這個事情我們並不知道是不是因為考試我們可以猜想這個孩子在決定離開人世之前他可能還遭遇了別的事情而那個事情會不會跟整個整體的教學現場的環境原生家庭的環境甚至當孩子進入學校之後他還有在社團在其他的人際關係在網路上實體的跟網路上都會有這些困境如果國家不願意用有系統的態度去面對我認為這個問題只會越來越嚴重"},{"start":2251.27,"end":2269.176,"text":"這次我還是可以接受教育部的說法你們不想入法可以但是我認為附帶決議那我的附帶決議的版本呢是希望在本法修正後通過六個月內辦理學生自殺嚴重自我傷害事件分析研究並且研究分析重視要重視質與量"},{"start":2270.856,"end":2294.781,"text":"再把這個研究結果提供相關建議來精心校園防治工作推展提出規劃報告送交教育文化委員會那也要拜託教育部在附帶決議上更積極地有所作為協助現場的老師、孩子還有家長一起去面對到底我們的孩子面臨的困境到底是什麼以上 謝謝主席好 不過我提醒一下我這邊有看到范雲對這件事情的附帶決議我們看到裴育偉的附帶決議"},{"start":2297.051,"end":2311.077,"text":"但是他有六個月你這邊沒有特別提出這個部分所以你那個附帶決議是不是教育部有嗎因為剛剛陳佩玉委員因為我剛剛看到的只是重新印發的是范雲委員的他的陳佩玉委員好 是不是給我們所有的委員一下那在利用這個時間點我們是不是請那個岳勤委員 好不好"},{"start":2321.724,"end":2323.446,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2346.369,"end":2360.866,"text":"教育部應該要正視這個問題因為我們的15歲 甚至10歲就已經自殺的狀態已經躍升到第三名 15歲已經躍升到第二名我覺得這是不可避免的至於要每一年"},{"start":2362.708,"end":2374.807,"text":"在美國的話他們大概就是四年會去做這樣的一個回溯性的調查研究如果台灣要跟經濟會同意可是不可能是說這法條拿掉之後沒有任何的積極作為我也同意在附帶決議以上 謝謝"},{"start":2380.291,"end":2400.486,"text":"親愛的同事們都很好可以發表但是我們的重中之重是在第四條的附帶決議跟十一跟十一跟十二好不好各位好這個如果大家已經有溝通了好不好趕快簡短發言謝謝可愛的雅琳委員好謝謝那因為其實我們也是有提版本啦就是希望可以針對這個不利處境的幫助研究跟探討這樣子那"},{"start":2401.627,"end":2417.883,"text":"基本上我是認同就是我們現在先不拔發文字裡面那我的想法是跟范雲委員一樣就是我們用社會學的方法做一個系統性的調查這部分還是非常需要的謝謝好 感謝教育部可不可以幫我們做個綜合回應有關范雲委員還有其他委員所提出來的"},{"start":2419.524,"end":2446.071,"text":"我們對這個議題同樣很關注我們也希望找到原因從源頭去改變環境改變系統性的因素把它比例降低下來然後我們已經有承諾後面會委託學術團體來做這個質跟量兼顧的一個系統性的研究那范委員所提案跟大家連署還有陳培宇的提案跟大家連署的這兩個負債券我們原則上都會配合辦理 以上報告"},{"start":2449.349,"end":2462.64,"text":"我們現在目前做成的決議就是我們七之一是不入法的但是我們就根據剛剛委員所提出的附帶決議我們就教育部這個部分上原則上就會遵照辦理好不好感謝來接下來第十條終於又進一步了很好來第十條"},{"start":2467.444,"end":2484.951,"text":"第十條的部分我們是不是先請教育部先做一個說明好不好你們在條文上面我們上一次討論完之後你們也回去做了一些的修正我們大家一起來看一下這個大本的第十條應該是第25頁開始好不好教育部你是會統一先做一個說明然後大家再發根據教育部的說明大家再看一下這條也是非常重要的來"},{"start":2487.552,"end":2506.982,"text":"這條第十條是有關於高中以下學校的專任輔導老師那在先前教育部的版本第十條是不修正的不過後來行政院院會討論依目前中小學學生的問題日益複雜人力確實有所不足所以行政院主同協調教育部及人總組總"},{"start":2508.423,"end":2531.211,"text":"還是提了第四條的修正案那院版已經在7月4號通過已經送立法院那通過主要在哪裡在國小原本是24班以下設議人他現在只要20班就設議人那他那個本來是24為一個級距就縮短成20個級距所以人力會因為這樣就增加那增加的人數呢我們有統計過國小會增加313個"},{"start":2535.369,"end":2557.936,"text":"金費會增加2億5千多萬國小會增加313人會增加2億5千萬國中的部分原本是15班以下設1個現在也縮小了只要12班以下就會設1個所以每12班設1個國中會增加290個人"},{"start":2564.104,"end":2564.224,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":2580.977,"end":2595.049,"text":"懇請委員支持因為這個部分是行政院主動提出來希望增加的因為我們過去在國小輔老師培育上就速度比較慢需要比較慢到位可是行政院覺得這次修法是很難得的機會希望利用這個機會就來做調整"},{"start":2599.059,"end":2622.231,"text":"大家會有一些意見不過你可以看一下這邊有個爭議點就是專任輔導老師去擔任這個主任或組長的工作那你這樣的一個人力其實目前為止也是非常多現場這個做行政職的老師的部分他去做了他就少了一個輔導的人力了那這樣有沒有辦法解決這樣的一個問題這個教育部等一下也一併來做一個說明那接下來還有誰有意見范雲委員跟陳培宇委員好 大家來看一下現在就表達嗎可以表達表達表達好"},{"start":2628.567,"end":2648.886,"text":"那個我想他就分兩個部分第一個人數的部分就是我原本的版本是18班以下嘛國小然後國中15班那教育部現在的版本是國小20班國中12班然後高中的我的部分是12班那就這邊也比較相近那但是這個部分我想已經協商了很久了"},{"start":2649.286,"end":2670.874,"text":"就是說教育部已經努力了那這部分我就不再堅持另外一個就是剛剛那個昭薇講的兼任行政時應補足應聘員額的部分這部分其實也是蠻多人跟我澄清跟反映的那主要上次我們都講過了其實在高中的輔導主管那一定是主任輔導教師而且會吃掉12班"},{"start":2673.675,"end":2698.861,"text":"一人的這個負擔那可是教育部又提到說你們的種種的困難所以我想這個部分就是說如果我們今天大家我當然還是希望說能夠爭取是不是還有空間我想今天我們之前能努力的都努力了如果不行的話那也是一樣就是我的附帶決議那我是附帶決議裡面主要就是希望教育部要妥善研議並監督"},{"start":2700.902,"end":2704.064,"text":"等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":2731.521,"end":2755.257,"text":"這個部分就是用這個附帶決議通過這個替代方案就是希望還是由專府人員協助教師擔任輔導主管時留下的介入性輔導工作這是你們教育部提的解方可是如何不會過度擴張他的協助工作那這部分教育部要嚴寧怎麼監督地方政府確實執行以上我就說明到這"},{"start":2756.397,"end":2785.217,"text":"好這是范雲委員你今天是才新提的一個附帶決議對不對對好范雲委員剛剛所提出一個新的對我知道我知道你就根據這個提的你今天新的大家有看到那個都有看到那接下來他們還沒發他們有發了嗎還沒發今天在這裡面一本那個范雲委員今天所提出來的附帶決議有定成一本大家先看一下報告教育部報告教育部你們看的最重要了好不好如果你們覺得可行的話你們就就那個好那接下來是陳培宇委員"},{"start":2790.899,"end":2818.742,"text":"沒有 這個我拿到的是那個范雲委員的啊對啊 第十條啊 我拿到的是他的那一個是上次柏惡是培育委員你上一次有提一個你上一次有提了一個對 我就是要講一下 謝謝主席就是關於人力培育的部分其實剛剛司長自己也不小心講出來了就算到了現在小學都還是很大的困難但是我必須要先說感謝行政院主動提及要把這個"},{"start":2820.363,"end":2842.199,"text":"一直沒有碰到的第十條在這一次教育部提出來的版本降了國小、國中確實可以期待但是我的問題也許教育部可以一併回答當然我有附帶決議就是在師資培育的部分師資培育的部分如何可以滿足質跟量的情況下讓教育現場真的有覺得獲得"},{"start":2843.8,"end":2844.02,"text":"等19人擬具"},{"start":2862.865,"end":2888.738,"text":"這一點我就忍不住要發言我自己在施肢培育我說實在輔導人員他們就是他即使有教師證他如果要拿到這個輔導的證照我說實在連現在連培育的機構可能都出了問題以前還有非常多學校現在就只能各縣市只能靠台北台北應該是國北市還是國北市國北市嘛其實很多學生在像高雄很多人他在高雄都找不到要修輔導學分的他可能到要到"},{"start":2889.98,"end":2911.256,"text":"我忘記到台南還是到台南去賞你看所以說這個人力上面跟你們所向這個理想事實上還是有一段的一個落差了然後目前為止很顯然像我之前也是提到說要把它降到15班以下然後呢然後這個東西比現行的條文大概多增加了一千多人八億多但是也是同樣面臨"},{"start":2912.737,"end":2942.2,"text":"你可能找不到這麼多失智的問題啊所以我們其實很多的委員到目前為止都有一點的妥協緣故是因為考慮到一個失智的因素所以分別透過這個附帶決定的方法來處理好 剛剛彭于委員那個部分裡面你有沒有辦法考慮到這個失智的部分有沒有辦法加一條是用逐年的方式還是用什麼方法可以來完成這個部分因為我告訴你這個學生輔導法今年修過之後再修已經又是三五年後的事情了是不是一次在這個不管是在條文法規上面或在附帶決定上面可以一次到位"},{"start":2942.6,"end":2962.796,"text":"所以教育部對於這兩位委員所提出來的這個負債決議有沒有其他的說明或如何來 部長 部長來麥克風麥克風謝謝主席范雲委員所提的我想我們配合辦理我們遵照辦理那另外陳培宇這個部分是不是請吳市長補充說明一下"},{"start":2968.306,"end":2993.46,"text":"原本確實培育量就受到四支培育機構的那個每年固定的量那原本規劃國小是到120年會全部到位國中到114年全部到位國小的部分在上次今年年初我們部裡頭有研議因為要增加學校的輔導人力所以曾經研議討論要提早到116到位那是現行法喔"},{"start":2998.182,"end":3016.791,"text":"國小、國中都分別加碼了,國中可能不是太大的問題,但國小這一塊加碼之後,剛才提到要增加300多個碼本來缺口是2088,再加300多,那這一塊是不是...我們私底下自己在這邊跟主席還有委員報告,非常感謝委員都很關注我們這個"},{"start":3020.993,"end":3039.217,"text":"提醒量跟值的並進所以目前增量的部分除了用公費培育的方式已經可以加入培育偏遠跟特殊地區的專輔老師我們也要求獅子培育大學相關培育系所要外加獅子生的名額"},{"start":3040.137,"end":3066.056,"text":"我們也持續地在開設在職老師家住專長學分班雖然這幾個模式都投入我們甚至署的部分也一起來努力我們在現場其實大概還有700多名的現職老師他其實已經有取得家住專長證但是沒有實質去擔任署這邊也一起來做努力研擬一些措施吸引他們來擔任"},{"start":3067.597,"end":3067.617,"text":"蔣麗芳議員"},{"start":3098.017,"end":3121.612,"text":"文字116年提前聘足這一段有一些教育部原先預定於民國120年到這個116年提前聘足這一段是不是可以協助我們刪除那我們會穩定的在這個量跟值的部分來把它多元培育的方式把它補足以上報告"},{"start":3125.057,"end":3148.944,"text":"所以你是告訴我們120跟120年跟116年這樣的一個數字這個年限不要把它框在裡面需要有更多的這個複代決議可以這個116如果要把院版的這個數字完全達成是會突增那這些人如果姑且論拼不拼得到到時候這些"},{"start":3149.824,"end":3174.692,"text":"人一次退休其實對教學現場也是不穩定的因素其實我告訴你我對教學現場了解根本非常的困難為什麼因為你現在光是大學裡面要來念獅子培育班的人數就已經完全不足了你從之前我自己當過獅培的老師我太清楚現在太少誘因了你知道嗎額外還要再去修這個部分所以我覺得這個是一個非常大的問題我覺得你反而在源頭前面你如何能夠讓更多的人"},{"start":3176.513,"end":3176.713,"text":"佩玉老師"},{"start":3191.26,"end":3214.438,"text":"好 培語老師說我先說我們這個負債決議的寫法如果您還記得的話其實是因為之前第十條沒有修嘛那我們只是把教育部一剛開始自己所宣稱的寫法放上來所以你現在要我拿掉其實就是你們教育部這些東西要先公開的承認是有困難的"},{"start":3215.379,"end":3235.646,"text":"所以我原則上可以拿掉沒有問題因為說了原本第十條沒有修但是如同剛剛您所說的一個是學試後還有現在已經加注第二專長的人願不願意投入真的去做專輔工作再加上你們還有公費生去特偏跟偏遠的部分"},{"start":3236.946,"end":3256.684,"text":"我覺得聽起來我不知道我如果現在問你你不一定會有數次但是我們都知道的困境是公費生逃離現場的比例應該不低於三分之一但如果你現在要在輔導的方面還要加開公費生還要把他派去偏鄉然後他又要做的是專輔工作"},{"start":3257.782,"end":3283.949,"text":"如果沒有額外的配套很難留住學生現場的老師他遠離了自己的原生家庭的故鄉的環境他到了一個生活機能不好人生地不熟但是他面臨的是最困難的專輔工作那如果這樣我們附帶決議可不可以再你要我拿兩條嗎那我再加一條就是後續的所有的配套措施請一併考量否則就會如同主席說的我們想像的所有的配套其實都"},{"start":3285.029,"end":3285.43,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3308.052,"end":3327.542,"text":"所以我現在目前手上這一個教育部建議的刪掉120、116然後呢把這個一個月變成三個月那很顯然佩玉委員還有一些的想法所以你這個附帶決議請陳佩玉委員你來跟你先自己寫那我們是不是利用這個時間我們先來看看第十條的條文各位很顯然大家就是用附帶決議方法來解決那第十條條文我們是不是可以看一下"},{"start":3330.703,"end":3338.104,"text":"根據我們教育部所提出來的紅字部分我要念一次是不是各位看清楚最後機會了不要再回來了"},{"start":3339.798,"end":3358.587,"text":"一、高級中等以下學校專任輔導教師員額編制如下一、國民小學20班以下制一人21班以上者每20班增制一人二、國民中學12班以下制一人13班以上每12班增制一人"},{"start":3362.389,"end":3381.763,"text":"13班以上者每12班增至1人高級中等學校12班以下者至1人13班以上者每12班增至1人學校屬跨學制者其專任輔導教師之緣額編制應依各學制規定分別設置這樣子嗎這樣子沒錯各位條文很重要有沒有意見"},{"start":3393.993,"end":3407.419,"text":"行政院版的?對OK 好 大家沒意見 那我們第十條條文就這樣子通過好不好謝謝 然後呢附帶決議就麻煩范雲委員跟教育部再來做一個說明范雲委員的附帶決議第十條教育部看過了嗎OK"},{"start":3409.926,"end":3432.893,"text":"可以嗎我補充一下就是那個一年內要把那個怎麼樣讓嚴寧協助學校針對前開狀況之具體方案以協助學校介入性輔導工作之推動可以嗎尊照辦理好尊照辦理部長說尊照辦理可以來我們看第十一條也非常的重要"},{"start":3435.953,"end":3449.903,"text":"第十一條目前來說第十一條各位來我們先翻到第十一條教育部要不要先對於你們所做的修正因為上次我們委員討論的非常多教育部要不要針對你們所做的修正先來報告一下第十一條條文"},{"start":3452.475,"end":3469.956,"text":"主要是高級中等以下學校及學校主管機關設置專業輔導人員的設置基準那原本是學校的部分是可以設專業輔導人員的但是必須是達到班級數55班以上就可以"},{"start":3470.697,"end":3473.499,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具"},{"start":3493.45,"end":3522.049,"text":"第三項就有講了主管機關是可以適時要統籌調派但實務運作上很困難所以這一次的修正就是修改這個重點把55班以上設專輔人的條文文字就把它刪除掉了那將來學校就只剩下專任輔導老師那至於專業輔導人員就統籌設在主管機關的學生輔導智商中心不過在一、二、三"},{"start":3523.77,"end":3549.702,"text":"第三項也有講不一定設在主管機關的內部它也可以設在學校裡面或者委由所設學生輔助中心所在的學校或責定之學校聘用之所以對於學生人數規模比較大的這些專輔人員主管機關還是可以把它派在學校裡面就近這個學校跟鄰近學校的服務這是一個重點第二個重點就是"},{"start":3550.796,"end":3550.956,"text":"主席"},{"start":3566.508,"end":3567.889,"text":"董事長董事長董事長"},{"start":3595.402,"end":3605.688,"text":"各縣市的學校輔導案量、地區區域等特殊情況會在這6%去增加配置人力實務上的人數因為增加"},{"start":3610.06,"end":3610.621,"text":"委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":3627.296,"end":3629.198,"text":"若依照4,500色役人加6%會變成192所需數字金費約1億6到1億1"},{"start":3645.996,"end":3658.613,"text":"增加的人數其實已經比以現行的基準增加30%左右所以其實有增加了那我們是希望大家可以支持這一個部分以上報告"},{"start":3660.458,"end":3685.523,"text":"我可以先問一下你這個百分之六到底是根據什麼來你到底把資訊放在哪裡就是你的工作地點你的任務到底是什麼你寫一個百分之六這個很含糊耶然後你要把它放哪裡你給我放在放在我的行政單位你也是啊你要把它放在不是放在我的真的很專注的地方也是啊它的任務要做什麼這是第一個我需要回應的需要等一下司長講的還有一個就是你四千到五千這個範圍很大耶你的基準點是從哪裡來"},{"start":3689.344,"end":3690.425,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3711.801,"end":3735.865,"text":"還有15校的部分,對不起我特別要講一下你剛剛算了我半天,我剛也算了半天我當初寫15校,那是因為你像我們高雄幅員這麼大交通這麼不方便而且我剛剛算過了你20校你現在20校,你如果說15校的話真的比你原本的20校只多出了死長58個人而已好不好你是不是可以考量到一些比較是幅員廣大的地方"},{"start":3736.425,"end":3751.707,"text":"你從20校改完15校其實就是258就是比院板子多了58人你這樣都不能這個是CP值最高的而且真的是你真的必須要思考一下好不好來我們先請其他的這個部分先請那個郭育秦委員"},{"start":3756.373,"end":3782.631,"text":"主席,我剛剛也是看到6%這個部分因為上次其實我有特別提過就是這個偏鄉的部分如果這個額外6%的一個考量不管是他的這個輔導的案量還是地理的區域那整體的一個配套是不是應該要有一個比較具體明確的一個規範因為你如果沒有一個具體的一個規範你其實真的光是不公平的一些案量的分配這個對偏鄉來講其實還是會非常辛苦"},{"start":3786.194,"end":3791.872,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以有一個比較具體的一個說明給我謝謝好沒問題來我們還有沒有"},{"start":3795.219,"end":3822.444,"text":"還有我剛忘了我們的部長你以前是從局長出來的對不對我們高雄的教育局長你應該呼應一下我的說法好不好安格雄這樣你服務員這麼大還差五十八人好不好部長你是不是也可以根據你過去的親身經驗裡面來發表一下真的是那些服務員那麼大光是舟車老頓別人可以跑五個學校他光是跑兩個學校他就已經一整天就過去我覺得這個還是有區域的差別啦好我先特別指明我們的"},{"start":3823.885,"end":3824.725,"text":"政局長范雲"},{"start":3834.418,"end":3856.113,"text":"我想這一個各縣市地理環境確實是有差異這一個花蓮那個台東可能要更狹長屏東我想包括台中原來的這個縣市的合併大概也都有同樣的一些困境所以我們這裡邊事實上這一個整個從經費因為"},{"start":3857.974,"end":3886.476,"text":"確實有利用這個機會感謝我們主席還有所有的委員我們從失智的培育我們在多元我們同時希望考慮他的服務品質所以有很多的政策我們我想部裡邊跟委員的方向那個理想性都是一樣的可是相對的我們怎麼樣去有一個階段性的一個逐步的去達到我們的所設定的那個理想目標這我想我們把那個方向我們不會打折扣"},{"start":3887.677,"end":3911.616,"text":"那這樣一個是來自於施施的一個培餘一個是來自於經會的投入再考慮到區域上的一些差異性所以我們才會有這一個從驗版裡邊的這一個裡邊衍生出來我們大概去估計了我們現場在施施在區域跟所有人力上的一些需求那我也"},{"start":3913.317,"end":3927.309,"text":"某種程度我們也看到確實主席剛才提到說我們這中央主管機關介於4500到5000的基數這裡邊他確實有一個我們是期待有一個Range因為"},{"start":3929.27,"end":3957.353,"text":"當然我其實有問過我們這吳司長之前我說為什麼我們就不直接4500就好要一個他說部長我們還是用一個這個Range那不然那4499那差一個人那怎麼辦所以大概當時所以我大概就沒有特別的去堅持因為我覺得你從部裡面的立場我們就一個"},{"start":3958.314,"end":3976.543,"text":"一個態度就是說一個比較明確的一個人數來增加但這些所有的人力也跟委員們報告就是說我們希望他是留在各地方縣市政府的等於說那個學生輔導諮商中心"},{"start":3978.644,"end":3979.044,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3998.231,"end":4012.54,"text":"大概做這樣一個補充,所有的想法就是誠如委員所提的,它確實有差異,那差異我們如果定一個單一的辦法的時候,有時候難免很難全面關照,所以才把這個地方的這樣一個"},{"start":4014.961,"end":4033.671,"text":"科與地方應該有這個更大的一個責任應該去協助統籌這個專業輔導人力去協助各縣市的這個各個區域上不同的一些專業人力上的一些服務所以啊我說你的基數是你穩定設在4500以下這也是啊這也是一個彈性啊為什麼要4500到5000呢4500以下也是一個非常穩定的一個基數啊"},{"start":4046.802,"end":4054.929,"text":"我剛只是說4500到5000那任局太大你說一定要有一個保持彈性我覺得你的彈性放在4500以下吧4500當作是一個點啊或者說我們用4500為原則這個當然都很會走對啊 類似的而且我說實在我還是要提醒一下剛剛我們所講的都不包含偏鄉條例額外設置的212位的專府人員是不是 司長還有次長"},{"start":4069.222,"end":4090.988,"text":"我剛所講的都完全我要百分之百確定完全是包含偏鄉條例裡面給我們的只要百分之百確定就好好來我們先請那個誰那個雅琳委員那部長請教一下跟司長請教一下因為這個4500到5000是一個非常大的數字那到底各縣市政府他們如何決定他要用哪一個數字去來計算呢"},{"start":4096.656,"end":4121.728,"text":"委員跟范雲委員因為那個實際的人數跟校數跟基數我想要請司長幫我確定一下我現在的算法是不是對的如果我們用校數15校基數4500跟6%的彈性我認為有機會我們其實是有機會的當然還有跟行政院討論因為這個部分是由中央支付對吧是嗎對部分"},{"start":4127.074,"end":4140.826,"text":"中央出的比較多所以我們還是要來請行政院考慮一下所以如果我們降低校數到15個學校大概就會是258個人比你們教育部現在的版本就增加了58個人我的算法到目前為止是對的嗎"},{"start":4142.506,"end":4142.646,"text":"秘書穩定困境"},{"start":4160.37,"end":4160.47,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4181.926,"end":4182.126,"text":"副副委員"},{"start":4204.74,"end":4228.18,"text":"當然大家都會說在偏鄉怎麼會不開車但有時候你就不知道他為什麼他就是沒有開車可能是他剛好連身體不舒服沒有開車或是他剛好車壞掉了種種原因他就是沒有開車那我們還是可以期待他有所謂的客運記得到偏鄉叫做客運不叫公車那這個情況下就是一個小時一班所以部長您來自高雄高雄的偏鄉也很多"},{"start":4228.84,"end":4246.71,"text":"我剛只是用我最熟悉的花蓮來舉例當然我知道這次行政院很大的財務上的支出當然地方也要有所承擔可是在這個部分我們還是很希望不只是幫偏鄉的老師爭取其實也是在幫偏鄉的孩子跟家長爭取因為偏鄉這幾年的困境其實相對複雜尤其是非常多數位時代的小孩他們其實是被3C養大的那他們所遇到的困境"},{"start":4257.301,"end":4277.667,"text":"我不會全部說都是家長的責任我之前在質詢的時候也跟部長討論過家庭教育的問題所以有機會的話我想我還是希望可以在15班的情況下或是基數固定在4500人15校 sorry15校的部分然後4500人然後額外的6%"},{"start":4278.587,"end":4291.202,"text":"那當然還是要感謝你們原本所保留的偏鄉條例額外有212個這個部分所以這樣聽起來我們的行政院版本應該會更完整的照顧到每一個鄉鎮市的需求謝謝"},{"start":4292.944,"end":4309.878,"text":"好 部長剛剛舉手的時候他要先回應一下謝謝委員的關心其實這也就是我們剛才在提說怎麼樣讓地方政府有因地制宜因為就我們現在所知道地方裡邊的那個學生支付中心它不會就只有一個"},{"start":4310.879,"end":4334.111,"text":"各個縣市它會針對它的地形環境它可能會有的比如說都會的它就是北中南或者東西南北各設一個那有一些轄場的它也可能會有因地制宜不會說讓一個人從北跑到南這就是我們所期待的一個等於說地方你不能"},{"start":4335.453,"end":4335.833,"text":"委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":4365.117,"end":4365.337,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4383.282,"end":4400.249,"text":"鄉村型的這個縣市剛才特別提到花蓮、台東、屏東等等苗栗南投我們現在已經各縣市不會只是設一個它有一個組但是它有一個分辦在不同的地區那我覺得這就是我們所期待的它能夠就近去關照"},{"start":4401.089,"end":4401.289,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4420.267,"end":4420.788,"text":"主管機關專業輔導人員15校"},{"start":4439.19,"end":4440.311,"text":"教育部刪除40班教育部刪除40班"},{"start":4455.367,"end":4455.768,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4478.806,"end":4503.176,"text":"大校駐校專輔人員非常地重要因為它的功能然後它才能更深入了解學校的體系也更能夠深度地服務學生個案也比較能夠促進校內輔導資源的整合研究也指出這是有成效所以我想我還是不希望刪除這個部分但是我想因為今天我們能夠協商的時間也不多那我現在"},{"start":4504.096,"end":4527.21,"text":"先提的話就是說如果教育部一定要堅持你原來的條文的話那我至少希望你們的說明文字來因為你讓這個地方給你等於是讓地方教育局處那個輔導中心去協調嘛可是你要有很明確的文字就是說他必須要就是讓大校、助校、輔導、專輔人員等於是一定要優先能夠有"},{"start":4528.571,"end":4530.792,"text":"主管機關統籌調派專業輔導人員時,已優先派駐至大型學校"},{"start":4546.861,"end":4552.567,"text":"因為我想大型學校要有專輔人員我還是希望維持這個立場那你們因為說各縣市情況不一樣那你希望能夠讓他有這個彈性在那可是你至少因為地方局處我不知道大家的信任度如何啊"},{"start":4562.498,"end":4578.386,"text":"因為我們有受監督也會遇到地方局處不太理會中央那你至少在條文說明裡面的話地方縣市議員或是我們立委未來在監督的時候他就不能夠忽略這個原則那這是我的一個堅持以上"},{"start":4582.974,"end":4606.054,"text":"等一下市長要回應剛剛部長有提到您在高雄市教育局當局長的時候你做了一個很重要的事情我要先謝謝你你說你在整個大高雄有設立據點分別的據點就是修復之中心這個部分好 一個部長 我跟你報告如果我沒有記錯全台灣好像只有兩個"},{"start":4608.36,"end":4608.76,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":4626.73,"end":4653.359,"text":"但是您剛剛說的那個做法如果以您現在身為部長也許你們可以透過你們是這些縣市政府的主管機關的角色請他們必須要更積極的去想像自己所在的縣市他們如何參考您過往在高雄的做法去廣設這些所謂分站也好分點也好然後不要讓工作人員過度的移動然後讓需要被服務的學生可以用最快的方法禁用這些資源"},{"start":4654.639,"end":4673.064,"text":"可不可以請那個司長想想一下幫部長想一下可以怎麼做務實上謝謝還有剛剛雅琳委員的這個說法還有她的4500你的基點4500到5000這個部分我剛剛說已經任職非常大了有沒有可能變4500以下或者是其他的因素還有郭育群委員"},{"start":4674.827,"end":4694.871,"text":"我補充一下就是說這些在協助偏鄉的這些輔導人員其實他們基本上都是自己在開車啦那我想這個部分其實對他們來講其實都是自行在負擔這樣子的一個交通的部分其實對他們來講也是非常辛苦我覺得這個部分可能還是要就是也回應剛剛裴玉委員所說的這些好 市長"},{"start":4699.811,"end":4725.017,"text":"首先說明第十一條這個所謂的每20校設一個以及4500到5000學生設一個以及再加6%這個統籌的這個設算基準以及合併給各地方政府部門我剛剛講了因為中央可能負擔其中最大一塊經費那少部分由地方自籌所以其實這個合併的權利是由中方主管機關來合併的所以到是5000還是4900還是4800應該是主管機關來做決定那"},{"start":4729.198,"end":4752.038,"text":"我説明是當初為什麽會定中央主管機關決定那為什麽會定4千5到5千就剛才講的因為他確實考慮到這幾年的那個少子化的變動因素對於還是不穩定的狀態所以定一個Range是希望合定之後各地的人力是可以穩定的不會因為學生上去下來就會要增加人或者要減少人的問題"},{"start":4752.819,"end":4773.047,"text":"所以4500跟5500是當時經過仔細推算決的可以處理的方式那第三個要說明的是說確實是我們現在把55班以上住校的通通收回到地方來了那當然如同剛才部長所說的其實地方實務運作上他也會考慮到因為我人數多了之後我即是要做責任區域劃分的那其實"},{"start":4774.648,"end":4797.733,"text":"滿多縣市其實可能只有一個中心但它會有分北區南區會有不同的辦公地點那個地方就是要就近服務啦那我想將來這個情況學校地方在主管機關在統統分配一定會考慮這個問題那如同剛才那個范委員還有柯委員之前也提到提過一個附帶決議就是對於學生輔助比較多的大型學校將來要派駐的時候是不是請主管機關優先派駐"},{"start":4800.254,"end":4817.752,"text":"柯委員是用附帶決議范委員是說用立法說明我覺得我們都可以接受立法說明可以接受那更好啦精神上都是優先派駐那個人員嘛那最後談一個問題就是剛才那個郭育群委員很關心的6%告訴我到底怎麼做分配"},{"start":4818.172,"end":4845.388,"text":"先說立法說明裡頭其實有講我們在立法說明有提到說如果學校所屬的學校因為學區的社經條件或者鄰近安置機構等特殊情況這種情況的負擔就會比較重那另外也提到說有部分縣市因為地理服務員狹長或者離島等因素人口分散這種情況的負擔因為很多時間花在交通上面所以這種情況確實是要加注配注人力的"},{"start":4845.788,"end":4850.169,"text":"請教育部會同各地方政府嚴定依區域學校學生樣態及輔導需求,配置並分派專業輔導人的機制"},{"start":4876.843,"end":4886.613,"text":"部長剛剛的建議很重要就是現在如果我沒有記錯的話好像只有高雄跟雲林有設所謂的不同工作站的概念"},{"start":4889.591,"end":4914.904,"text":"我們桃園也有分南桃園北桃園假設你們不願意改20到15我們可不可以多增加一個附帶決議因為就像剛剛主席也講修復法在修已經不知道是什麼時候了我們增加一個附帶決議好不好我們討論一下就是現在我們都不確定到底誰有誰沒有的情況下或者是盤點各縣市的需求當然主管機關有角色去監督地方政府但地方政府白亂不做就是不做嘛"},{"start":4917.287,"end":4932.167,"text":"我們可不可以有一個附帶決議要求你們協助地方政府積極的確保每一個地方應該要有依實際需求設分點、據點的概念強度可以怎麼增加如果20校沒有辦法調15校的話"},{"start":4934.301,"end":4945.757,"text":"一個的部分當然我跟同仁在了解到目前到底是各縣市政府22個縣市政府那個輔資中心到底是大概多少個不過以我以前服務過的新北市的話新北市設了四個區台北市"},{"start":4951.425,"end":4955.127,"text":"現行的規定是設在學校裡面主管機關的部分是20人以上的部分是設一人所以基本上設在主管機關的人數本來就是不多"},{"start":4982.225,"end":5010.042,"text":"20班以下每20個學校增加1人加上還有4,500到5,000人還是增加人還有6%的增加人所以總統的部分就會在各主管機關裡面去做一個人數所以第一個人數會增加所以它相對於以前來講會有更多的人數的部分它可以去做分區的配置這是第一個因為法規已經改了人數增加了"},{"start":5010.282,"end":5010.622,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":5037.529,"end":5039.292,"text":"好,那就這一步年底,不過我還是認為15校"},{"start":5042.74,"end":5062.989,"text":"僅差那58個就不行嗎?對不對?次長二十校到十五校就差那58個你看這麼多委員都提出來包括很多偏遠地區你就可以不用為了這件事情你讓他們每天在這邊奔波只剩下58個你可以解決這麼樣多的問題58人我還是強調不要說20到15算過了就是只有58人這有沒有解方?"},{"start":5070.168,"end":5088.07,"text":"我們可以同意剛剛你們說的這個部分用附帶決議的方式我覺得好可是我還是覺得20到15就差那58又不是差到580 58人所有的委員都贊成這樣一個部分這個部分有沒有修改的空間有的話我現在要唸條文了趕快第十一條就可以唸過了"},{"start":5090.738,"end":5105.407,"text":"我先說明因為行政院當初在看第十條第十一條的時候是整體考慮的對他放在為什麼在第十條去加碼很考慮的原因就是因為輔導老師就住在學校裡面我就可以就近服務我的學生"},{"start":5106.608,"end":5134.8,"text":"這種情況之下當然在第十一條相對來講它就會比較支持教育部原本的版本所以這個地方如果再加就會變成雙重都加了那因為先說大家應該有印象之前行政院這個院版條文為什麼在行政院院會排了幾次都沒排進去很大一個原因就在第十條第十條去斟酌可能需要人力配置跟經費然後行政院內部去做溝通所以我相信這個方案在人總組總在態度上都是支持的啦所以如果要再做調整這恐怕就需要重飛"},{"start":5135.64,"end":5138.261,"text":"董事長現行規定的部分只有20班以下的部分是配置相關人數新修法修正以後有三種配置方式"},{"start":5163.695,"end":5170.961,"text":"等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具"},{"start":5188.976,"end":5190.317,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5213.225,"end":5230.079,"text":"剛剛我比較希望確保大校有專訪人員那個要納入你們的說明文字剛剛主席也支持嘛沒有問題那當然就是說那個協調會不會好我們就是要看結果了啦那當然我也支持就是說有一個附帶決議把剛剛講那個分區中心能夠納入這樣所以大家都可以接受嗎"},{"start":5236.035,"end":5243.145,"text":"你們都可以接受那我先問一下部長"},{"start":5249.109,"end":5276.098,"text":"謝謝那個次長的說明就是我們把10跟11加起來看但是我們還是有表達我們對於現場的指導所以我們提出這個困境那如果真的就行政院有困難我覺得附帶決議的功能我們還是希望教育部承擔起協助地方政府在增加這麼多人力之後他必須要把大家各自的困境盤點起來整理需求但因為我不知道主席能不能接受"},{"start":5277.694,"end":5303.343,"text":"我覺得我們就是卡這麼久就是希望在這邊有所突破那可是這個突破點顯然是不如我們大家所預期的啦對啊大家都還是希望能夠真的大家期待很高啊就是希望這次修法這麼多的學生輔導人力的這些的問題我們當然希望真的有給人家更大的突破我肯定教育部非常的努力在做溝通協調啦那到底這個問題出在哪裡是誰家身上"},{"start":5309.472,"end":5338.115,"text":"人總嗎?還是...對啊,這到底出在什麼身上?因為你們顯然都很贊成我們說的說法啊那問題就是到底...然後等一下那個教育部先把那個條文剛剛范雲委員所說的那個入法的條文是不是誰先...先...不是,你要...因為我等一下要宣讀啊你要入到入法你要在那個條文上面先...要寫在哪裡?你是在立法說明是不是?那你...那你要...到時候也要給我們看一下好不好?"},{"start":5338.973,"end":5352.346,"text":"白紙黑紙這年頭什麼都不信真的是白紙黑紙都可能翻盤你這個說了就回去會不會回去之後我們現在說定了就不會再做任何的變動是這樣子嗎"},{"start":5357.853,"end":5377.902,"text":"如果能夠照這樣我們剛才的院版事實上也都有討論過的那我想剛才吳市長也提到人種各採取單位他們也樂意來支持那所以我陳儒我剛才也跟主席還有委員報告過我們有一個遠大的一個理想在那裡"},{"start":5379.141,"end":5397.814,"text":"我們不會打折扣但是在整個施施培育在整個經會在整個效益服務品質上我們只要透過中央跟地方的合作我們逐步的來達成那個附帶決議先寫一下我們再看看有沒有辦法去做這樣的一個處理好不好所以我先第十一條欸你們這樣就OK啦你們這樣就OK囉"},{"start":5412.376,"end":5437.531,"text":"對阿我覺得我回應一下主席主席覺得突然是不是覺得有點孤單有點寂寞這樣我是覺得大家應該是好好再繼續做一些的爭取的那主席這樣好不好因為我剛有聽懂次長的誠意就是說十跟十一其實共同都一定調整還是這邊你先放走我們等一下回來繼續聊我們先回到第四條因為如果把錢拉進來一起看會不會"},{"start":5438.888,"end":5440.209,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5461.997,"end":5464,"text":"先談第四條你覺得這樣會比較單純一點嗎我們大家都不覺得啊對不對"},{"start":5473.791,"end":5495.839,"text":"而且就我們現在理解來說你剛剛說學生中有幾個點應該只有高雄跟新北有啦其他地方沒有啦高雄、新北你說還有桃園22個縣市有13個縣市都有分區的分區點對而且我最主要是因為少子化就是一個必然的趨勢吧所以你把這個校數降低是因為人少啊不會輕易改變校數而是改變班數啊不是嗎"},{"start":5496.519,"end":5519.526,"text":"所以說我才想說十五校特別的重要是因為它可以幫各縣市統籌的人員再多增加一些啊我們都是在幫他們講話是幫他們考慮很多啊我覺得最主要是是希望大家能夠考慮是源於這個因素嘛那主席可不可以請學特斯你們都有算過嘛那個百分之六然後這個四千五百五千這個就告訴大家譬如各縣市是增加多少這種"},{"start":5520.506,"end":5521.387,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5546.808,"end":5560.998,"text":"我說明一下剛剛講的二十校4500人或5000人以及外加6%二十校這個數據那就相對於以前是一樣二十校那就200人二十校的部分是200人4500到5000人這樣4500的時候是5300"},{"start":5569.198,"end":5571.022,"text":"530人擬具5,000人擬具5,000人擬具477人擬具6%擬具"},{"start":5579.983,"end":5580.203,"text":"併案審查委員"},{"start":5605.063,"end":5634.475,"text":"像一般在那個新北市大概約略占全國的大部分的數據的百分之二十到六分之一百分之十六十六到二十間所以我以我來以一個縣市為例桃園會增加十四到十六人類似這樣子"},{"start":5636.732,"end":5636.952,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":5658.787,"end":5679.357,"text":"會在外加,那是外加喔我知道是外加,可是你的記憶板又很少,你的人數很少啊這是學復法要修的主要的目的啊你不要告訴我修了半天你只給我增加14到16,桃園欸那我另外待會跟委員報查一下,那次好小喔第二個要跟委員報,剛才其實貴委員也有問到偏鄉跑來跑去"},{"start":5680.305,"end":5699.406,"text":"剛才大家其實對偏鄉有一個222人的那個想像有點漏看沒有我說我們剛才談的全部沒含偏鄉我們剛才已經確定剛剛市長都已經確定沒有含偏鄉我說想像它的運作所以運作的時候不能夠漏掉那222人"},{"start":5702.646,"end":5731.227,"text":"我們剛才講的773人是不含那222人絕對不能含阿對阿所以220人一起212他是用當年度的國中偏鄉學他年度間會不一樣他看當年度的國中偏鄉所以他會浮動再來就是剛才各位委員問他有交通費有補助交通費所以剛剛解決的幾個問題如果把今天大家談的"},{"start":5732.088,"end":5760.467,"text":"他的20沒有變然後我們把另外兩個指標讓他衝大了到192是達原來的33%增加量為33%再加上偏鄉222人以及他有交通費再加上今天的附帶決議已經放到我們的條文說明會多點各縣市我們要去要求他多點以及就是分區中心還有大校儀優先那個我覺得這整套齁"},{"start":5762.134,"end":5784.628,"text":"這個增加量 我也跟大家報告一個數字現行它的應聘率跟實聘率才從79%升到84%而已所以還有16%是整個現場的人才以下外交方面我也怕各位委員所擔心的我們要顧慮這是幾年幾年就會檢討這幾年後還是會檢討這沒幾年沒幾年還是會檢討所以現行這樣的一個運作"},{"start":5791.272,"end":5792.633,"text":"已經增加達33%然後透過委員今天講的幾個Flight決議讓它實踐不要讓原來"},{"start":5800.333,"end":5800.613,"text":"併案審查委員"},{"start":5831.897,"end":5854.484,"text":"我記得因為之前我們也一直在上次協商後繼續爭取那你們當時說沒有辦法一下增加那麼多的一個理由還有說就是擔心一時之間聘不到這麼多專業的人那我自己是覺得要不然一個方式就是說這條保留繼續爭取另外一個方式就是說附帶決議再增加一個就是三年內就滾動式檢討"},{"start":5856.084,"end":5856.144,"text":"主席"},{"start":5873.516,"end":5873.576,"text":"等19人擬具"},{"start":5894.21,"end":5922.233,"text":"我只是提出那個建議的傅太俊先寫一下我知道大家都很想這個部分保留在目前為止不太可能有我們做了這麼多的努力不太可能有機會變成我剛剛所提到的這個層面有的話就是大家就繼續耗著然後再繼續請再回去行政院大家再協商然後回來告訴我們不太可能都是這個如此嗎"},{"start":5923.505,"end":5942.536,"text":"主席我可以再問一下嗎可以再說一下謝謝主席剛剛署長的說明我們可以了解然後所以我剛剛也才提議嘛我們是回頭看第四條把錢跟人的事情合在一起看因為司長剛剛再度提醒有族種、有人種的關係但我想問您剛剛署長說時聘率只有70幾83點多好"},{"start":5947.279,"end":5969.398,"text":"有可能有一些困境是這樣如果我的想像沒有錯來自實務的經驗其實可能過往有一部分是因為薪資太低嘛對,所以我們還是要回到第四條嘛我的意思是說我的想像如果是跟這個有關確實它跟薪資有關我們很務實來看薪資那至於剛剛范委員已經說要保留嘛如果我們都沒有辦法接受"},{"start":5973.471,"end":5995.939,"text":"我只是說我剛剛只是想要確定那個八十級的這件事情其實真的是跟薪資有關啦我們收到票說絕對是的啦對所以我就回來看第四條新點的部分應該也是很重要的這樣好黃木凱委員是啊我們討論那麼久不就是卡在這邊嗎其實如果說這一件事情好解決的話其實上個會期也就到最後也是通過嘛"},{"start":5996.619,"end":6024.505,"text":"那當然我們又多了三個月的時間來討論其實一樣啊薪資一定沒有辦法讓所有人滿意那但是我們要怎麼樣能夠在這個會期我們有所突破跟進展我覺得這也是重要啊所以比較起來我反而會比較建議因為如果說我們再說要保留然後再研議然後即便是我們委員會協商沒有成然後之後再朝野協商之後再院長協商我覺得還是一樣的問題點"},{"start":6026.461,"end":6047.142,"text":"所以有沒有可能一個方式是附帶決議但是三年內要求檢討甚至兩年內來做這樣子的一個比較積極的一個方向但是我覺得我們的目標都是希望能夠先補足現有的一個不足好不好 謝謝好 那就附帶決議好啦 司長"},{"start":6048.863,"end":6062.819,"text":"學生輔導法第22條本來就該規定就是每5年檢討一次其實我們這次的修法是111年就已經檢討提出建議了只是修法程序很緩慢審查過程那其實我們下一次檢討就是116就是要檢討了啦剛好就是3年"},{"start":6065.071,"end":6091.077,"text":"所以大家不用擔心這條好像很久才不會的我們每五年法令規定每五年就要檢討一次那你這樣讓我們更傷心你們檢五年檢討一次害我們在這邊還是幫這些人講的話都一樣所以你表示你那個檢討沒有用表示之前我在檢討什麼讓我們更傷心就是我們已經晚兩年檢討了如果你這樣講每五年檢討一次我們現在是在補兩年前的破網有點這樣的概念對啊你在那邊檢討老半天所以我心思還這麼低沒有辦法吸引人"},{"start":6093.087,"end":6104.007,"text":"還是沒有辦法吸引人好 我們用附帶局的方法竟然在場的委員都認為其實這樣委員都希望能夠幫我們這些人員真的是我們的學府人員能夠增加更多的一個待遇上面的一個誘因不過"},{"start":6105.322,"end":6124.758,"text":"不過我還是覺得因為我知道這個過程我說實在的教育部也做了一些的努力也很有誠意大家有感受到但是礙於財務的關係所以我認為是好啦我們就是在附帶決議裡面把剛委員所考試的問題全部來處理我們先來看第十一條的條文這是什麼這是附帶決議是吧立法說明好不好看一下"},{"start":6135.64,"end":6139.682,"text":"各高級中等以下學校主管機關應依下列規定致專任專業輔導人員並得適實際需要致兼任專業輔導人員若干人依各高級中等以下學校主管機關"},{"start":6161.69,"end":6186.285,"text":"所主管高級中等以下學校總數合計20校以下者至1人21校至40校者至2人41校以上者以此類推第二就是各高級中等以下學校主管機關所主管高級中等以下學校學生總數除以中央主管機關公告介於4500至5000之基數中央主管機關"},{"start":6187.285,"end":6200.136,"text":"得考量各高級、中等以下學校主管機關所主管高級、中等以下學校之輔導案量、地理區域等特殊情況在不超過前項各款加總計算之全國專任專業輔導人員總數6%範圍內"},{"start":6207.122,"end":6212.249,"text":"依其需求和與特定高級中等以下學校主管機關外加專任專業輔導人員額數不受前項規定"},{"start":6220.316,"end":6243.492,"text":"然後素額不好意思謝謝不受前項規定之限制然後接下來依前兩項規定所至專任專業輔導人員應由高級中等以下學校主管機關統籌調派並得委由所設學生輔導諮商中心所在學校或則定之學校並用之然後這個如果一樣的話我就"},{"start":6249.127,"end":6274.799,"text":"我跳過專科以上學生900以下者應至專任專業輔導人員至少一人超過900人者每滿900人增至專任專業輔導人員一人未滿900人而逾速達450人以上者得試業務需求增至一人但空中大學及宗教研修學院不在此限後面就是我們之前所熟悉的條文大家有沒有意見"},{"start":6277.182,"end":6303.782,"text":"好 那附帶決議這條文我們就通過那附帶局的部分對我們之前要不要先處理之前的委員的部分我們目前附帶決議第十一條附帶決議的部分有范雲委員的這是上一次還有這一次的有三案都是范雲委員的今天有"},{"start":6307.162,"end":6314.523,"text":"好了那個來那個教育部回應一下附帶決議根據委員所提出來的"},{"start":6317.54,"end":6339.26,"text":"教育部在找的時候我先簡單說明我有另外一個新增加的一個是專科以上學校專輔人力相關的附帶決議大家可以看一下有沒有找到我的附帶決議就考量專科以上學校專輔人員的薪資跟輔資中心差不多所以意思就是說很有提升的必要"},{"start":6340.181,"end":6351.707,"text":"請教育部以修正補助要點增訂專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升專科以上學校提升"},{"start":6363.353,"end":6365.115,"text":"這是針對專科以上學校專輔人力的薪資應該要比照然後有相關的要點"},{"start":6380.055,"end":6389.14,"text":"實驗教育學生的家長與學生反映雖然適用學輔法,但不了解相關資源希望教育部研議如何加強實驗教育學生需要使用學輔法資源能夠增強讓他們了解其實他們是可以使用學生輔導資源"},{"start":6408.149,"end":6412.052,"text":"那這個宣傳的部分以上就這兩個我先說明一下"},{"start":6424.028,"end":6448.906,"text":"那我的上次的第十一條附帶決議可以嗎?就是專業督導對於心理師社公司專業能力養成、服務品質的把關所以在相關的專業輔導人員設置辦法裡面我希望,因為各地落實的狀況不一樣我希望對於品質的把關這件事情可以訂定有關專輔人員督導的設置規定督導各縣市政府落實相關的規範這部分可以?可以齁?好,謝謝"},{"start":6455.475,"end":6459.896,"text":"還有柯珍委員的你們那時候叫我把較多之大型學校應優先派駐專任輔導人員你們希望把那個應改成宜"},{"start":6486.234,"end":6495.508,"text":"請問音有什麼問題?所以我認為很重要,所以應該用音啊,不是嗎?不能用音嗎?"},{"start":6498.376,"end":6514.61,"text":"這是非常合理的各位你聽聽看助校模式對於學校專業輔導工作具有正面的效益不僅能提供深度……所以針對學生人數較多之大型學校應優先派助專任專業輔導人員並能維持大型學校輔導人力很合理吧"},{"start":6522.125,"end":6526.209,"text":"主席,您的負責決定在哪裡?我說明一下啦來給彭孟凱委員有一疊"},{"start":6538.103,"end":6556.441,"text":"如果我們對於學生人數較多的大型學校有很清楚的定義這個因下的後面就會有執行的強制力那如果因為你沒有定那個因那個到底是在哪裡還是會有衡量的問題所以你要去定義大型學校所以我要給你大型學校的定義嗎你就可以把我放成因嗎那個"},{"start":6558.88,"end":6558.9,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":6579.324,"end":6606.254,"text":"邵官所出來的他不一定在特定的那種大規模的學校中型或是你如果沒有給縣市一個是真正的情形來處理的話那下了陰字他有一些定到那裡會讓他的彈性實時調節您是說中型學校反而是沒有辦法做這樣的處理對他有些要彈性的時候是不是要給地方政府他真實的情形他最清楚那我們給他尊重這也是他們表達的可以可以"},{"start":6607.634,"end":6618.82,"text":"反正這個附帶決議好本席同意來不是你們這樣太多還有沒有有關其他委員的附帶決議第十一條的附帶決議非常多就一步"},{"start":6619.912,"end":6646.529,"text":"的態度?委員所提的附帶決議我們都是遵照辦理另外就剛才講一個就是分區設置還有就是三年內要重新檢討人力費值這塊我們正在研擬文字當中主席我可以最後一個補充嗎我本來還想講的如果都要用附帶決議因為現在的學輔資中心就是這個就是地方主管機關這個他們的考選制度不一樣所以導致於我們之前一直跟你們談的"},{"start":6647.529,"end":6674.869,"text":"相關人員的品質那可不可以你們在這一次修法的時候一樣放附帶決議就好了不用入法相關的考選不管是筆試啊、面試啊什麼對著空氣模擬啊這種你們可不可以跟各縣市政府討論有一個比較rough的版本讓他們知道有所本而不是自己決定愛怎麼考就怎麼考這樣可以嗎那我們才能夠確保進行學輔資中心的品質因為學輔資中心處理的是最困難狀況的孩子嘛"},{"start":6675.569,"end":6675.589,"text":"負擔決議"},{"start":6698.44,"end":6710.27,"text":"資格上是全國一致但是您剛才講到後續有些辦理那個考選的方法大家商量一下有一個比較對有一個最大公約數好不好可不可以你們附帶決議附帶決議寫一下你們進行專輔教師的部分好不好可以嗎專輔教師的部分可以嗎剛剛講是十一條委員剛才講的那個整個資格可能我們沒有辦法用協商的因為資格是怎麼樣就絕對要那樣但是他的考法啦"},{"start":6727.683,"end":6746.344,"text":"今天委員目前所提的是他甄選的程序啦甄選程序而不是我們不涉及到資格因為資格會有些在法規裡面有寫的所以附帶決議的部分我們就我們先條文的部分如果大家沒有問題范雲委員條文部分"},{"start":6747.66,"end":6747.9,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6775.081,"end":6790.853,"text":"來 那就給陳培育委員看一下吧 修正的好 第十條的就第十條的這個附帶決議培育委員OK好不好 那我們就通過好 來 各位第四條 喔 真假立法一直來 來 看一下看一下沒有沒有沒有 第十二條第十二條應該沒什麼問題來 我們看一下各位大家仔細看一下好不好"},{"start":6803.945,"end":6814.189,"text":"以以設置分區學生輔導諮商中心彈性方式配置輔導人員以便就近調派及時提供鄰近區域學校輔導資源服務對於人數較多之大型學校優先派駐專業輔導人員以維持大型學校學生輔導工作穩定的發展"},{"start":6832.536,"end":6833.556,"text":"十二條"},{"start":6856.115,"end":6882.875,"text":"我說明一下12條各位可以看一下原本12條的敘述在學校因為有55班以上的專業輔導人員在文字敘述上都是把學校的輔導人員跟任輔導老師的職責就敘寫在一起但是我們現在已經確定了就是住校的那一塊已經拿掉全部都是由地方的輔助中心統統調派所以文字上做了配合調整那這一條會有保留是因為剛才那個住校那個要等11條確認那現在"},{"start":6884.696,"end":6908.307,"text":"已經確定了十二條我這樣可以吧合法吧把紅字念一遍就好因為前面我們都熟了吧條改就是學校主管機關所致專業輔導人員負責執行儲遇性輔導並協助發展性及介入性輔導之推動OK 好吧我們就修正通過好 謝謝來 我們現在是17條來 司長"},{"start":6914.463,"end":6931.311,"text":"17條原本有兩項第一項是談到學生輔導相關工作人員要對於學生的這個涉及到各自的部分要予以保密避免外洩啦除非是緊急危難的情況不再實現那第二條講的就是這些"},{"start":6932.071,"end":6932.291,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":6947.193,"end":6963.902,"text":"增列成第17條之一那同時針對那個專業倫理準則是不是由中央主管機關訂定以及將來如果違反專業倫理規定的話調查處理懲戒的規定大概是有委員有做提案啦那這個部分我們經過內部的討論是"},{"start":6966.463,"end":6989.93,"text":"同意第十七條的第二項予以刪除以列到第十七條之一的第一項大家可以看到黑字的部分那個是從原本第七十一條之二移過來的那增加第二項就是前項所稱的專業倫理是指前項學生輔導工作相關理念按其身分別或專業別依教師法、心理師法及社工司法相關規定所應遵守的倫理規範換句話說"},{"start":6992.071,"end":7016.716,"text":"教師法、心理師法、社共司法對於教師、心理師、社共司其實都已經有很嚴謹的規範了啦理論上應該回到這些相關法令的規範去做處理我先做以上的說明 謝謝同意啊 布版可以啊這樣看起來比現行的條文更加的完整啦"},{"start":7023.425,"end":7050.507,"text":"黃孟楷委員謝謝還有沒有我這邊我先講很快講完和你講我是覺得好像增訂沒有比較好因為本來就不同身份別就會有應該遵守他自己的專業規定我反而覺得就是說如果沒有依照因為本來我們就說有的條款的話那應該就是用個附帶決議教育部應該要去把就是說跟教師相關的"},{"start":7053.35,"end":7070.144,"text":"教師進行輔導工作的時候其實也會涉及到專業倫理而且學校的空間跟一般的專業諮商的環境不大一樣這個首密的部分就要一步應該要去參考民間專業倫理守則廣泛收集意見溝通確保教師進行輔導工作時也有專業倫理的守則就是可以確保"},{"start":7076.27,"end":7092.565,"text":"因為這樣就回到我們原本要跟你們遊說我們的條文的時候你們就說讓他們回去遵守原來的那本來就應該遵守原來的這是基本的所以這裡應該如果不要依照原本我跟陳培偉的版本的話那應該是要一個附帶決議你們去"},{"start":7095.307,"end":7109.273,"text":"參考民間專業倫理的譬如說輔資學會也定有學生輔導公共倫理守則然後他各個剛剛講相關的社工的話那去修訂你們原本的東西啊譬如說教師的部分是不是增訂在這裡面我覺得應該是這樣才對吧"},{"start":7116.294,"end":7144.999,"text":"因為我們原本是叫你們要訂一個學生輔導工作專業倫理規範嘛那你們的理由就是說這樣跌床駕屋就各專業團體都依照社工依照什麼身份那如果這樣社工依照什麼身份他考證教各方的時候專業本來就有了那我們現在講的是說校園的範圍比較廣比如說有教師沒有這樣的身份可是進行輔導工作的時候那其實都應該要有一個專業倫理的守則規範可以依選所以請教育部副代主委請教育部去參考"},{"start":7149.138,"end":7166.658,"text":"謝謝主席我要講的題目可能有一點大但是我想請教育部應該懂我的意思把整套學生輔導法打開來看我們這一次想要強調的除了大家在意的新點然後班級人數的調整之外其實我們希望這一次修法讓大家更看見三級輔導機制的連貫性"},{"start":7169.121,"end":7169.281,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":7193.123,"end":7195.164,"text":"等19人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":7222.613,"end":7248.434,"text":"確保這些人有沒有謹守專業倫理我還是會擔心當然我知道你們說的心理師、社工師、教師都已經有相關的專業倫理規範這個我沒有問題但如果我們自己不要忘記三級輔導機制是未來我們要落實努力的目標並且我們會有大量的教育宣導、政策對話讓學校裡面的每一個人都知道他必須承擔這個工作那我們就必須要有專業倫理"},{"start":7249.855,"end":7249.875,"text":"佈局長"},{"start":7277.497,"end":7292.828,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我覺得在這個規範裡邊這個確實在學生的權益在處理邊不會是只有老師、心理師或社工師學校的校安人員或行政同仁有可能甚至"},{"start":7293.769,"end":7318.583,"text":"自公、幹事等有可能有經手參與初級預防的過程上是有可能接觸到這個個案許多相對的隱私權利等等的那怎麼樣去維護確保我是具體建議是不是也是一樣用附帶決議把"},{"start":7320.066,"end":7341.656,"text":"併定教育相關人員如校安人員、幹事、志工等對於輔導工作的保密指引那這裡邊的保密指引也在併定的時候也請跟這個相關的老師、心理師、社工室的一些團體能夠大家一起來研擬一個相對的一些怎麼樣去落實這個專業倫理的規範"},{"start":7344.654,"end":7353.062,"text":"所以目前為止你說這邊第17條還要再用一個附帶決議的方法來處理未竟事宜是不是是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7359.884,"end":7360.024,"text":"執行局局長"},{"start":7386.264,"end":7414.273,"text":"對 主席這一點我也是想請教我們教育部你現在的法條其實我看完之後我覺得你們這樣子的修正其實是合乎邏輯的那其實說實在不管是教師、心理師或是輔導人員他也本來就已經有這些倫理的規範那我們只是說他跟社會跟學生輔導法是說他的對象是學生但他不因為說他對象是學生或說他對象是一般人他就有不同的倫理啊"},{"start":7414.733,"end":7432.689,"text":"是阿,所以你有沒有必要在這一條這個完全不是為什麼會我們對反而是好像才會讓大家覺得是有跌床駕屋的狀況阿當然我們有委員提出來我覺得也是很嚴謹沒有錯但是重點是其實這個有沒有必要這樣做"},{"start":7435.28,"end":7460.413,"text":"跟委員報告就是說本來我們也相信老師、心理師、社工師他們都有專業倫理的法條在規範這沒有問題但是我剛才要補充的委員所提的就是說你在參與的過程不會是只有老師有時候可能校安人員校安人員他不一定是老師所以變成是教育人員裡邊我們在法條上的規範可能利用"},{"start":7461.013,"end":7461.073,"text":"董事長"},{"start":7469.634,"end":7496.679,"text":"沒有受教師法、心理師法跟社工師法規範規範的之外的人假設他也有剛好參與或是知道這個訊息怎麼樣去...部長,洪委員的意思就是他跟我的意見是說其實所有這些專業人員本身就會受到這些法條的約制而且他們本身就具有非常的專業上部分所以不需要在17之一的這個層面裡面額外還要再去提出來不需要在學生輔導法最後"},{"start":7497.619,"end":7497.939,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7520.239,"end":7547.695,"text":"我是覺得不用增訂但是要有個附帶決定那個相關的人員跟機制當然當然在附帶決定裡面決定的不用在17之一告訴我們大家應盡的一個責任好像我是小朋友我已經知道我要幹嘛了你又給我一條我覺得這對我來說對啊這是天經地義的事情好不好OK好17之一3然後就用附帶決定裡面額外再去做一個處理這樣子好不好好感謝"},{"start":7548.695,"end":7576.653,"text":"那主席我確定一下因為我當時就有提出附帶決議意思就是學生輔導工作相關人員如學校老師、學務創新、相關人員職員、教練、社團教師、志工等對於學生輔導的職業、花壺如保密等有關違反專業倫理之專業輔導教師、心理師、社工事因應相關辦法處理所以也請教育部確定這個附帶決議是否可以主席主席抱歉抱歉另外你說現在17之一是要拿掉那這樣我建議這一條就不要修啦"},{"start":7578.075,"end":7578.915,"text":"維持線型條文維持線型條文維持線型條文"},{"start":7599.474,"end":7627.659,"text":"所以你還是有修文字要確認文字要確認你看你的現行條文是前向人員並應遵守相關嘛是不是現行法對啊現行法是前向人員嘛可是你現在的文字是學生輔導工作相關人員所以要就是這一條就不修但是你用附帶決議要就是要改病因"},{"start":7629.861,"end":7655.028,"text":"警守專業倫理這就是原有條文所以我們就不修正維持現行條文好不好然後其他剛剛大家所考試的請用附帶決議來做一個處理那附帶決議請到時候給我們看一下17條的附帶決議教育部有看過范雲委員沒有沒有沒有17條有范雲委員的這個部分教育部的意見陳佩瑜委員這剛剛"},{"start":7660.532,"end":7680.68,"text":"對 對 對所以他把17之一的那個附帶決議把它拿回來好 我先跟大家討論一下我們現在3點45分我們第四條的附帶決議很重要各位要繼續還是我們擇旗尊重大家意見就擇旗你不要以為我們都很閒的樣子我們很忙欸"},{"start":7686.202,"end":7711.451,"text":"第四條我們現在只剩下第四條負債決議我覺得第四條負債決議剛剛那個其實還是有一些的想法啦我不覺得還沒討論但是我的意思是說我們現在已經3點43分部長我要把這弄完我可以但是部長從早到現在他們我可以對我們只我們把這邊處理完只剩下第四條的負債決議"},{"start":7715.828,"end":7729.296,"text":"條文修正草案就是附帶決議的新點有問題第四條條文沒有問題附帶決議裡面對於薪資的部分大家非常的有好沒問題來"},{"start":7741.792,"end":7753.987,"text":"好,好,那就可以啊就如果說大家還是繼續把它完整我是,我是就OK,好哎負擔決議啊,停一下,停一下,快點"},{"start":7756.145,"end":7756.706,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7777.219,"end":7778.94,"text":"第十一條還有兩個附帶決定"},{"start":7807.211,"end":7807.712,"text":"教育部的意見"},{"start":7828.646,"end":7853.32,"text":"好 附帶決議 教育部若沒有意見的話我們就附帶決議就通過那第十一 第十七條之一我還要唸嗎還是大家已經OK了可以嗎附帶決議啊附帶決議啊螢幕上是對啊 附帶決議啊我們剛剛已經討論過啦通案嘛 對不對通案 把17條刪掉"},{"start":7857.361,"end":7876.304,"text":"有關學生輔導工作相關人員的這個部分三個月內研議並提出規劃報告然後我們要訂立學生輔導工作相關人員就下面這些人對於學生輔導之指引如保密等第二是有關違反專業倫理規範之專任輔導教師、心理師、社會工作師因依教師法鬥點吧心理頓浩心理師法及社會工作師法之規範處理OK"},{"start":7890.51,"end":7907.384,"text":"第十條第十一,您的負擔權可以這樣兩個這樣去寫嗎?所以呢?好,OK,就把它放在一起就對了,OK,好,來回到第四條"},{"start":7909.096,"end":7935.054,"text":"所以我們第十七條就這樣子照行政院版本的通過嘛好不好然後第四條第四條條文我們是通過的我們現在是在附帶決議的部分來 司長維持現行版本維持現行版本現行條文是維持現行條文還沒有我們還沒有結束啊還沒有結束第四條要怎麼樣我們要現在開始討論啊"},{"start":7937.304,"end":7957.759,"text":"第四條我們第四條要討論一下就是最重要的第四條主要是因為在委員會完成審查之後在朝野協商的過程當中我們也希望爭取時間趕快來及早研議啦所以謝謝我們部裡頭林長賜幫忙召集也邀了行政院人事總署、組織總署、衛福部還有"},{"start":7961.783,"end":7962.003,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":7979.071,"end":7994.365,"text":"學士學位或者碩士學位目前的薪水是差一階那這個部分希望從差一階調整為差兩階所以普遍心理師的待遇一個月應該會增加兩千塊左右這是第一個重點"},{"start":7995.306,"end":8019.807,"text":"第二是專輔人員擔任督導的部分因為我們目前定有條件跟資格的督導必須是學士畢業要服務滿四年碩士畢業要服務滿兩年才具有資格擔任督導而且督導的職責確實是比較重的所以我們經過討論的時候是建議專輔人員擔任督導的時候他的薪水可以在原來的薪水進兩階"},{"start":8022.509,"end":8048.225,"text":"進兩階那這個部分就是當如果他有一定他不當督導了回任專業輔導人員的部分他可能會受到輔導人員天花板的限制但是他這段期間擔任督導的年資是一樣適同輔導人員的年資是可以被採任的那這個大概目前調整的方向是這樣所以督導人員的薪水天花板我們也配合提高調整到跟保護性社工的督導的天花板是一樣的"},{"start":8048.985,"end":8049.145,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":8068.729,"end":8093.882,"text":"僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅僅"},{"start":8093.882,"end":8094.082,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":8103.783,"end":8126.957,"text":"一般的心理師可以多兩千如果擔任督導可以再多四千塊因為近兩千嘛大概方向是這樣至於其他的部分因為我們也有跟衛福部建議因為我們這樣調整之後對於社安網的一般性社工其實是有某種程度的衝擊的所以也有請衛福部幫忙就是社安網的第二期計畫到明年底截止可能整個計畫也要重新做思考調整"},{"start":8127.597,"end":8149.905,"text":"那希望衛福部在這個後續也有所因應以避免社安網一般新社工往學校這邊大量移動造成那個排擠跟衝擊以上說明所以你那個社安網的那個部分要請衛福部責成他們的薪資說實在我們每次都環環相扣他們的薪資每次都考慮到所以他們應該是努力把他們的薪資也往上提升因為他們真的是非常的辛苦啊不是嗎"},{"start":8150.485,"end":8159.347,"text":"我們前面五次會議那個衛夫每次都有來他們基本上過程充分參與他也尊重我們目前的規劃他們也知道將來聯動那邊要去進行下一波檢討"},{"start":8172.045,"end":8185.4,"text":"你一定要跟著調整啦不過我是說社工師應該就是要讓他們更調高一點啦每一次我們也是怕的因為有這樣子所謂的剝奪性的概念啦剛剛說會往我們這邊來擬但問題就是他們那邊的薪資你永遠不調整我們這邊說實在也考慮到彼此好像在幹嘛彼此在牽托欸"},{"start":8193.469,"end":8203.76,"text":"這個東西是不對的啦所以我個人認為說衛福部這個層面上也要為社工師的這個新點的這個部分也是要多多爭取他們的權益啊各位委員附帶決議有沒有意見"},{"start":8208.49,"end":8227.126,"text":"我先說明因為委員對於那個第四條的附帶提了好幾個那我們有考慮過因為有一些條文我們經過討論是做不到的譬如說主管加擠、職務加擠、專業證照加擠你把那個附帶決議給各位委員來看一下好不好我們有發送就是有一個三點的"},{"start":8229.927,"end":8231.588,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8259.687,"end":8260.027,"text":"等19人擬具"},{"start":8281.596,"end":8302.892,"text":"副代決議有兩個一個是專府人員的一個是主任督導的就是內容那當然就是說現在還有一個問題就是那個專業證照加擠的部分那我的版本原本是專府人員持有國家專技高考專業證照者應合理給予職業執照加擠並不應低於保護性設公司職業執照加擠32星點"},{"start":8308.917,"end":8333.989,"text":"那就是這一點那教育部這邊還有好像是衛福部嘛很堅持就是保護性社工那是多少?一、四、二點那個部分是更高的那這個部分就是不知道還有沒有空間啦那其他的部分我已經很盡力的爭取那教育部也一直幫忙爭取這也要肯定教育部的調整那現在的版本我還覺得"},{"start":8335.209,"end":8335.65,"text":"主持人 主席"},{"start":8355.475,"end":8373.201,"text":"我可以先一併問嗎?主席?好,我先一併問好了所以我們確定一下目前大家一起努力爭取的就是參考衛福部相關規定的保護性社工蓄心規定,對嗎?那蓄心規定的算法就會是比照保護性社工蓄心的地板跟天花板143.9星點"},{"start":8375.362,"end":8402.414,"text":"那這個新點的部分等一下請你們做回應當然我知道司長剛有說工作的專業性質還有那個危險性高度也不一樣這個等一下也會再請司長說明那督導會希望以圓心及淨點兩階取代督導加擠這個部分也想請問教育部的看法接下來就是督導會任專輔人員會採記年資這個部分我覺得已經長年來都沒有改變希望這一次有機會改變"},{"start":8403.735,"end":8430.933,"text":"那還有就是採集過去專業工作年資從地板算起像是專輔人員從A縣市的學輔資中心到B縣市的學輔資中心年資過去到底有沒有加上去那未來修法後可不可以加上去再來就是心理師從七等二階起薪那因為心理師他們每一個只要是國家考試合格的心理師都是具有碩士學位這件事情我覺得他們必須要被考慮到七等二階"},{"start":8431.753,"end":8448.445,"text":"那目前在職的專輔人員跟著調高薪等這個部分我們也很好奇有沒有機會做到好 以上 謝謝好 最後一步"},{"start":8449.645,"end":8475.905,"text":"還有教育部根據剛剛委員的說法大家都極力要爭取然後呢我知道這是大家經過非常多的這樣子有沒有機會再可以給予更完善根據委員所提出的各副的決議當中因為我們現在目的決議總共有九份那我們希望不用一一來做一個處理希望能夠納為一個大家最完整的一個版本然後呢做這樣的一個處理否則處理不完"},{"start":8478.668,"end":8488.944,"text":"培育委員跟范育委員的想法 司長首先說明委員對於專輔人員跟督導的續期起點跟天花板"},{"start":8490.783,"end":8509.601,"text":"還有督導的起點跟天花板我們現在幾乎是做的方向是跟大家的提議是一致的而且我們幾乎都已經對應到保護性社工的狀況了但我們不太可能再超過它這是第一個先說明的第二個剛剛提到的關於那個32新點的問題"},{"start":8512.143,"end":8512.845,"text":"民間團體承攬社會福利工作"},{"start":8524.42,"end":8525.14,"text":"副主席"},{"start":8545.971,"end":8563.084,"text":"四千塊 但還是說清楚那個是衛福部給民間團體希望他們不要只聘社工員而能夠提供到社工師所補助給民間團體希望減輕民間團體的負擔而願意聘有證照的人那個四千塊並不是直接幫他"},{"start":8564.705,"end":8585.845,"text":"並不當作幫他們加薪的概念那因為我們的這個學校的專業輔導員從頭到尾就是一定要具有專業證照的這個情況之下其實沒有那個空間再去加那四千塊啦因為討論過程上這個部分有跟人種、族種、未婦反覆討論這個部分是完全沒有人贊同的所以這個是有困難的"},{"start":8588.786,"end":8601.427,"text":"我們唯一還沒處理的真的我們能努力的還沒有處理的就是折扣率那一塊也是大家還有不同意見其實也折扣率本來就可以採記他當督導回來之後督導年資也算專府人員督導"},{"start":8603.457,"end":8627.831,"text":"還是一句話啦那個什麼司長、次長還有部長等一下我真的還是覺得我們今天為什麼這時候是重中之重呢因為我們如果這次還是一句話了我們沒有辦法讓專府人員有感那這個薪資其實是個非常現實中不能叫他每次都去做功德我知道大家很努力的啦但是呢就是因為我們剛開始就是因為有人認為要法治化現在我們大家退縮覺得法治化可能不太能有"},{"start":8629.012,"end":8655.188,"text":"法治法可能在薪資的部分你完全沒有辦法來做一個迴避但是我還是要強調我真的還是要強調這個以七等二很多人都強調以七等二階來做起薪然後進敘清點的最高是到八等七階這很多委員特別會去提到然後呢專府的人員原因為什麼我們要特別提到因為現在心理師及有碩士學位的社工師都用六點四階來聘真的是非常"},{"start":8655.708,"end":8656.008,"text":"委員黃秀芳"},{"start":8671.826,"end":8674.669,"text":"等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》、委員黃秀芳"},{"start":8697.731,"end":8719.953,"text":"我真的是每次講到這個地方我們現在目前為止因為不管是怎麼樣大家已經做了這麼多的努力了但是我還是要強調這是給這些過去長期給大家這麼辛苦在第一線工作者一個最基本的一個交代千萬不要認為說我們這樣的爭取好像為他們做多少的什麼事情過去真的是太低了所以呢大家看看這講到這邊就非常的感慨"},{"start":8721.354,"end":8745.682,"text":"第四條的附帶決議的部分因為我也覺得如果我們再堅持下去然後包括你們剛剛所提到的這個如果是我們的人種我們都沒有辦法各方面大家能夠在這個經費上面能夠做這個層面就會卡關在這個地那教育部剛剛也特別提出了這樣就是我們所提的附帶決議各位委員最後的時間你們就稍微看一下如果覺得可以"},{"start":8746.587,"end":8758.199,"text":"那我們就在這個部分以目前來說就是用這個方式來然後期望在未來當中能夠讓他們可以持續的在做更合理的一個調整各位委員覺得我是非常不滿意啦"},{"start":8764.397,"end":8765.138,"text":"主席我們可以休息五分鐘再繼續一下"},{"start":8779.838,"end":8779.978,"text":"主席"},{"start":8797.541,"end":8806.807,"text":"那個偏鄉交通補助那個其實教育部本來有補助但是它是一年一萬二到現在加一桶油光95的時候我一個月"},{"start":8827.688,"end":8853.594,"text":"我覺得你那針對我講的我是說你那個一千塊錢、一千二那個平均下來一個月補一千欸沒有啦!你剛剛前面就是講我們本來就有補助然後我其實本來就跟我想他講我是打你的所以你講的啊!對啊!那你的補助是一年一千一年才一萬二然後最多最多你劃三個劃三個才一千"},{"start":8856.495,"end":8875.19,"text":"是說是7.2G?7.2G就已經現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊 現在才7.1啊?對啊"},{"start":8879.533,"end":8880.353,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8900.079,"end":8900.839,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8930.948,"end":8934.873,"text":"那只是他要去比對一下跟原來的提案跟原來的提案是一樣的"},{"start":8944.226,"end":8947.068,"text":"而且有在運動很容易餓 我很怕同仁起來我會覺得為什麼這個市長一直在吃東西"},{"start":8961.517,"end":8969.759,"text":"你每天都有去補嗎?沒有,因為到年底要比賽,校園開的里程現在聽著,上班前幾點要出門?高中門是140.3現在是下雨的地點雨前還是在報?"},{"start":8983.843,"end":9002.496,"text":"有幾次我到國北要出門想說我到底要不要出門還是在家跑跑步騎可是我家跑步騎比較舊我跑得很不習慣我就決定走到國北去看看有沒有人也在跑每次都有人有更豐富有人在跑我就趕著跑下雨的時候在學校操場"},{"start":9007.999,"end":9008.019,"text":"蔣麗芳議員"},{"start":9030.271,"end":9034.057,"text":"因為我家人都在台北,所以我根本沒有什麼回家、回鄉過年這種事情"},{"start":9046.734,"end":9053.479,"text":"所以說我跟我太太都是台北人嗎?也沒有說你要保留信息?目前都是OK的年假比較多"},{"start":9067.749,"end":9073.552,"text":"沒有啦我剛剛其實看到我上次的我剛剛主任剛剛在看負債決議當中負債決議當中其實大家還是認為那個這個新點的折合率應該到143.9"},{"start":9081.718,"end":9107.206,"text":"折合率這塊143.9你算上去還是1500然後加上你剛剛所提到第二項2000、3500我說實在才有感我們講務實一點督導還提了兩階4000沒有兩階督導督導你也要專業到一個程度才有辦法當督導沒有啦我個人覺得說當初我們所提出來的東西還是在這個折合率希望能夠提高到143.9"},{"start":9109.428,"end":9116.7,"text":"我覺得這個東西沒有辦法再努力嘛我們也是花這麼久的學...我們還要花這麼久的時間啊143.9啊143.9啊你這樣才可以到1500嘛"},{"start":9123.186,"end":9142.921,"text":"第三,沒有,你那個部分最主要是你做合理的調整但是你並沒有很明確,像第二條非常明確的告訴我們說你現在是做這樣的處理,只是說未來做合理的調整這只要做未來合理的調整,然後這個部分我說實在的,這個很快就會廢話起,你知道嗎對"},{"start":9147.256,"end":9169.743,"text":"所以有沒有辦法在這個143.9的部分請教育部再多做努力一下我知道你剛才講的很明白嘛督導就多四千嘛我們一般的輔導是兩千嘛但是你第三個這個新點的折合率如果能夠到143.9的話你每個月可以有一千五嘛你可以一千五所以就變成四千這樣三千五欸三千五一個月三千五我覺得一個月三千五問題在哪裡我們現在是要找誰"},{"start":9177.736,"end":9199.785,"text":"這個之前我們大概都跟人總、族總大家都討論過而且跟衛福部包含那個什麼那個保護性社工基本上他的個案的部分是相對來講是比較工作性質還是有差異還是要工作性質相近職責相當所以基本上還是有些差異是啊所以我們把那個什麼那個地板跟天花板的部分都大家"},{"start":9200.7,"end":9201.842,"text":"我們再休息五分鐘"},{"start":9240.517,"end":9257.982,"text":"143.9把他明確標示出來這樣我們才比較會有保障嘛不行,但是我們就覺得有數字在那個地方就像你的那個還是比較更明確一點嘛"},{"start":9311.121,"end":9311.461,"text":"委員黃秀芳委員"},{"start":9335.291,"end":9335.951,"text":"委員黃秀芳委員"},{"start":9364.878,"end":9383.525,"text":"那我剛剛說另外一個那個專業的那個證照加擠的部分就是沒有辦法是吧就是保護禁制就是跟保護性社工的那個職業執照加擠32星點那個部分現在就討論這件事因為二都沒有問題現在就二的部分嘛我們現在討論二的部分嘛"},{"start":9390.68,"end":9405.03,"text":"剛剛司長跟次長有特別提到這個保護金社工明年一月會...根本是所有的啦明年本來就配合軍公教條先調3%所以他基本上折額率就會跟著調啊如果是以現在是143.9乘以1.03啊你說現在是多少143.9"},{"start":9425.623,"end":9432.568,"text":"我覺得我是被那個言義合理調整那個言義兩個字有點卡住我只要看到言義兩個字我就覺得"},{"start":9434.267,"end":9457.845,"text":"這個薪資的調整的部分不是教一部直接單讀就可以做決定這個就是我剛特別看到的嘛我可以同意你說這個綜合律不要寫143.9因為就是配合這個可是言義合理調整當你寫言義的時候表示你只是在言啊你在義啊但是你可能不執行啊可不可以給我一個更好的動詞"},{"start":9462.512,"end":9466.036,"text":"各位 我們正在同一條線上 三位同仁到最後了"},{"start":9487.318,"end":9487.939,"text":"作合理調整"},{"start":9501.96,"end":9502.42,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9525.413,"end":9546.026,"text":"因應《少年事件處理法》修法後之曝險與偏差行為、校園暴力事件行為行為人輔導之挑戰性、專輔人員之新典折合率因考量其工作職責、參佐社會安全網保護性社工之新典折合率做合理調整意思就是說我講白話一點每個月還可以多一個1500塊"},{"start":9555.015,"end":9574.593,"text":"雖然是文字上這樣調整我們會同意這樣文字上調整但是它實際上的調整我們還是要循那個程序還是要把跟因為最後的那個調整的部分的話還是要報到行政院所以之前的部分教育部會跟相關部會包含人總跟組總去做討論討論完以後我們報到行政院那由行政院他們再去做一個審酌"},{"start":9575.794,"end":9576.094,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9596.282,"end":9622.23,"text":"但是當初談的時候認為那個保護性社工他的工作職責的部分跟我們學校的部分還是有些差距所以這一點即使我做文字的調整但是真正會不會落實到這個部分還是要去做爭取我知道好"},{"start":9624.213,"end":9650.36,"text":"那我們現在是不是只能賦予教育部好好的是啊因為現在我們做任何的這個部分裡面也還是要到人總還要到我們的組計組總那邊去做任何的一個處理後面的部門還必須要走行政程序那我不會處理老半天到時候程序告訴我說因為經費考量不予通過至少剛剛講那個第二段是我已經目前談的結果是基本上是有共識的"},{"start":9652.216,"end":9675.416,"text":"第二點做演繹嘛意思就是說如果他們同意的話他就是2000塊再加1500塊因為143.9算起來就差不多是1500塊就是差不多是3500塊的一個月大概是這樣我們講白話一點應該就是這樣子的處理但是這個部分就是教育部認為這一塊他們是可以目前為止他們可以爭取到最大但是最後的拍板定案還是要回到我們行政院的一些流程程序嘛好不好那可以的齁"},{"start":9679.888,"end":9700.356,"text":"主要就是現在聘任率只有84%離職的人又非常多所以我們當然還是希望爭取到更高包含就是說我剛剛講到就是跟保護性社工這個部分那當然你們的理由就是說其實風險不大一樣然後就涉及到這個政府整體的規劃"},{"start":9701.556,"end":9720.815,"text":"那我們現在也沒有辦法去幫保健社工爭取更多錢嘛因為那是衛福部的部分所以我想就是看大家覺得是要現在這樣先往前走還是要繼續爭取這樣繼續爭取我們精神跟高危同在而且已經一直溝通跟爭取了看起來非常多智慧"},{"start":9721.615,"end":9750.521,"text":"因為我們大家做到這個部分我們即使爭取再多然後條文寫了這麼多到最後它還是根據行政院一些程序嘛所以我們搞不好講得很嗨到最後全部告訴我們說都沒辦法所以我們來一個最合理的一個方式啦那是不是可以坑清委員所有你們的附帶決議我們就以第四第四條的附帶決議就以這張為基準點其他的九項就不用了好不好這樣會比較單純一點因為這差不多折衷啦大家就簽在那上面啦但教育部不是"},{"start":9751.161,"end":9752.021,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9776.067,"end":9787.651,"text":"非常謝謝來我們最後各位我們還剛剛我們的議事人員提醒我了我們議會有做一些修正所以大家看第三條第三條因為跟第四條是連動的好不好各位看一下第三條是連動最後一個少年"},{"start":9789.963,"end":9791.465,"text":"各位我還有一個附帶決議跟學生賠禮比較有關的跟薪水無關的"},{"start":9811.866,"end":9817.07,"text":"主要就是希望教育部三個月內嚴敏加強向學生求助及轉介資訊的宣傳能夠同儕培力、陪伴者培力等等"},{"start":9839.709,"end":9863.124,"text":"因為現在學生的心理健康問題真的越來越嚴重那包含學生的同儕還有重要他人比如說伴侶尤其是大學生這些那對於相關輔導資源有特別需求可能會因為不是本人就沒有受協助或是不了解如何引導有需要的學生尋求協助或是如何陪伴那這次學生團體就是來跟我澄清的希望"},{"start":9864.085,"end":9867.709,"text":"教育部加強宣傳學生求助及轉介資訊"},{"start":9883.625,"end":9889.767,"text":"來請等一下把那個封面找出來大家照個相很重要來協商的結論就是原審查會通過第3條第4條第5條第12條修正通過然後第10條第11條軍照行政院提案通過第17條維持現行的條文然後我們增進第7條之一及增進第17條之一不予徵定"},{"start":9906.873,"end":9920.899,"text":"擬具通過附帶決議17項擬具其餘軍造審查會審查結果通過擬具檢附立法說明一份擬具然後呢擬具各位擬具我們就簽字擬具然後謝謝各位擬具謝謝大家擬具我們學生輔導法就是協商完畢擬具謝謝大家"},{"start":9928.606,"end":9928.626,"text":"副長來"},{"start":9949.396,"end":9952.778,"text":"總算了總算了辛苦了辛苦了辛苦了謝謝謝謝謝謝市長"},{"start":9973.948,"end":9978.391,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":9994.025,"end":9997.607,"text":"學生輔導法修法完成學生輔導法修法完成"},{"start":10025.651,"end":10026.472,"text":"學生輔導法修法完成"}]}},{"id":"16240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16240","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc53a1fc3a982fb612ad9f551ce5fa921f083084566cc2bdb4d6c56ae7a41aa15b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：繼續併案審查\n（一）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（三）委員林月琴等17人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（四）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（五）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（六）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「揭弊者保護法草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「公益揭弊者保護法草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-07T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-07T16:16:00+08:00","duration":27945,"影片長度":"07:45:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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本是第15個草案是送到行政院做審查"},{"start":2127.762,"end":2144.6,"text":"那麼在7月8號的部分我們這個昭緯這邊也有辦過公聽會那我們目前的一個進度立法政策的部分是採取公部門先行、私部門服以行政指導逐步的再去推廣到私部門的一個整體"},{"start":2145.641,"end":2173.897,"text":"為什麼在一開始從103年開始其實一開始就是先公部門的一個先行到後頭來採公司部門的合併到後來又變成說我們的一個這個公司合併的上市上櫃那到今年的一個部分再改成說我們現在的一個公部門就是為主然後司部門的部分用行政指導的原因主要是因為說在立法上面因為也有很多不同的聲音所以為求慎重"},{"start":2174.697,"end":2175.597,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2202.326,"end":2223.265,"text":"就是像林智傑老師、劉邦秀主任、陳永正主任跟李聖傑副教授都是上一次7月8號的時候在我們的公聽會中認為說在10部門這邊要特別的慎重這樣的一個情況那麼再來業界的裡面在這個王毅會理事長的這個全球永續公益聯盟的組織"},{"start":2224.486,"end":2249.319,"text":"案 及全國工業總會及萬國事務所都會有這樣的聲音。在之前的部分的一些我們了解的一些像是中小企業還有中華民國工業協定會及一些律師意見其實都對於說司部門的這一塊是有一些聲音在當然我們是希望能夠"},{"start":2251.159,"end":2270.525,"text":"證証因為我們現在目前的部分就是說司部門也不是說我們就就是說我們該採用行政指導的方式希望說能夠在我們的目前的進度是公部門這邊然後司部門是盡量用行政指導讓環境成就以後希望說我們在這個求先求有求好的這個狀況以上好謝謝主席那也謝謝那馮署長清楚的說明"},{"start":2278.103,"end":2301.795,"text":"那其實我就希望說透過馮處長幫我們彙整這段時間以來政府部門主管機關辦的公聽會包括我們本委員會辦的公聽會各界的聲音是怎麼樣那我是不是可以這樣的做一個歸納看看大家的意見聽聽大家的回應似乎沒有人反對要定揭弊者保護法我想這應該是一個很清楚的社會的共識是不是這樣子部長你是不是認為這樣子這個的確是這樣"},{"start":2304.676,"end":2327.706,"text":"但是看起來公聽會大家對於說要制定揭弊者保護法但是因為目前行政院的版本自從上次送過又回去重修到目前我們還沒有可以看到行政院的明確是希望怎麼去進行但是從今天我們各個委員有七個版本包括我們的主席吳釗偉在內這個版本各黨派都有"},{"start":2328.286,"end":2338.291,"text":"那這當中呢也似乎他們的共同特色就是並不是只是從公部門先行而是公私並進是不是這樣子"},{"start":2339.281,"end":2364.238,"text":"那在公司併進的部分聽起來其他的多數意見對於施部門要如何再跟公部門同步併進這個部分是有保留那有提到說尤其談到了幾個重點就是民間的公司企業就是私企業的部分他們對於有沒有能力去承擔這樣的揭弊者保護法在這幾個公司併進的架構之下施部門、私人企業有沒有能力"},{"start":2366.88,"end":2391.691,"text":"我請教一下有沒有與會的這些公聽會的發言者他們認為現階段已經是可以在四部門可以同時跟公部門公司並進的有沒有就馮所長您剛剛所描述的那些意見內容當中第一沒有人反對要定揭弊者保護法那有沒有哪個部門支持四部門在這個過程當中同時跟公部門公司並進的有沒有"},{"start":2394.557,"end":2421.828,"text":"在目前的一個情況之下齁其實各種聲音都有啦那事實上在公部門的這一個部分上的部分的聲音的共識比較大那公司部門這一塊當然也有呃也有外國的議法力有這樣子採而且限制是多數只是說在我們台灣目前的一個情況之中有一些中小企業對這一個事情的聲音確實是比較大所以我們也採比較慎重的部分啦"},{"start":2422.8,"end":2438.613,"text":"因為你只是描述一個大方向比較大的這個他們考量的問題那麼我們是不是可以在這裡面來討論那我這邊就直接深入我的觀察那目前台灣九成以上是中小企業那中小企業的僱用人員呢"},{"start":2439.013,"end":2443.756,"text":"案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":2457.245,"end":2458.466,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2483.806,"end":2485.166,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2511.834,"end":2512.674,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2534.58,"end":2549.424,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第"},{"start":2563.368,"end":2577.728,"text":"案件中,尼古丁跟焦油是造成煙草危害公眾健康最主要的殺手,焦油造成對肺部的一個傷害,尼古丁造成使用者上癮,但是在這樣的報告當中,大型的煙草商就要把它遮蔽,"},{"start":2578.669,"end":2605.804,"text":"案件都不向對外透露,以至於公眾長年暴露在這樣的一個不良的商品的健康危害之下,直到他們內部的人揭發了這樣的一個調查研究報告之後,才慢慢的讓很多的反菸害團體,很多消費者的保護團體能夠起來對菸草商進行相關的司法訴訟,那也導出了後面對於一些菸害防治的一個立法運動。"},{"start":2606.744,"end":2625.246,"text":"那我是覺得因為這樣的大型企業在其他國家早有先例因此我們國內引令揭弊者保護法是有必要但是目前是以臺灣來講當我們適用這些大型企業會對我們公眾生活造成極大影響的揭弊者保護法的同時那麼法是一體適用的"},{"start":2625.586,"end":2634.032,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第"},{"start":2651.463,"end":2651.823,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":2674.909,"end":2696.349,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那就我們今天要討論的這個議題我想因為我們臺灣五人以下的這種中小企業應該是有超過150萬家以上那在這種小規模小企業當中如果說我們去實施這個所謂的揭弊的這種規則的話"},{"start":2699.432,"end":2701.613,"text":"案件,為何會造成企業間公司在營運的過程會不會是因為同性質的企業"},{"start":2714.841,"end":2718.326,"text":"案件中的競爭引發不必要的檢舉方式,導致揭弊的情況不能像"},{"start":2730.162,"end":2755.863,"text":"保護法草案案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案件事宜等21人擬具、「揭弊者保護法"},{"start":2759.963,"end":2779.44,"text":"交通規則違規的這種檢舉的這種案例來看其實已經造成人與人之間的一個不信任我不曉得他們這種檢舉的情形那個有時候他們到底他們的那個出發點是什麼"},{"start":2781.533,"end":2802.478,"text":"反而造成我們一般民眾之間一種猜忌的情況所以我希望說我們對於這一次這個揭弊者的這個我們要實施的話應該是要審慎評估要有一個比較好的一個配套然後我還是主張就是公司要分開來看"},{"start":2805.661,"end":2823.885,"text":"因為這樣子才不會導致我們這個利益良善我們要去制定這個法又導致中小企業私人企業之間他們這種小公司小規模的這種企業會不會造成另外一波的一個這種不必要的一個紛擾以上好謝謝那我們請莊委員莊委員"},{"start":2833.382,"end":2860.608,"text":"謝謝,謝謝召委我想剛前面的委員也提到了就是在提整個揭弊者保護的部分是談可能大家擔憂的就是說這個承擔能力的問題揭弊者保護我認為是非常有必要的就是說這個範圍到底要到什麼地方我這陣子我非常冷靜的去做一個思考那剛剛我聆聽了幾位委員的講法以後我想大致"},{"start":2861.368,"end":2862.448,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2885.736,"end":2914.273,"text":"最常看到的比較大型的國營事業不管是台鐵或者說任何的一個企業遭到指控收受不當的資金民眾還照樣我該搭高鐵的我還是搭高鐵我該搭台鐵的還是搭台鐵你最後調查沒有結果其實公部門對他沒有怎麼樣影響民眾並不會因為你這樣的一個弊端來受到這樣的影響可是就在民間裡面可能"},{"start":2915.213,"end":2931.023,"text":"這個部分是不是就再來做一個考慮就是說怎麼樣做一個安排這個是我比較擔心的你公部門的受理揭弊的機關其實是非常明確那我去看現在的各個版本來看的話受理單位到最後都會"},{"start":2931.323,"end":2938.088,"text":"案案件事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律"},{"start":2950.737,"end":2979.756,"text":"因此如果本法施行以後應該更能夠去體現它的一個適用的一個效果這個是公部門先行的一個部分可是這個就是大家在談大體討論的時候可能難免就會去比較個別的一個版本你像比如說吳宗憲召委你的版本其實我也拜讀了你那個像比如說你那個第五條那個部分你的公部門大家談公部門跟私部門很多地方你就範圍又跟人家不一樣你就不包括"},{"start":2981.078,"end":2982.963,"text":"證務官吳保瓜明代（"},{"start":2986.442,"end":3001.185,"text":"保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事"},{"start":3016.311,"end":3016.671,"text":"判決判決判決判決"},{"start":3032.701,"end":3033.802,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":3047.114,"end":3047.434,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3074.324,"end":3075.164,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3102.904,"end":3118.198,"text":"也有可能是不了了之那像這種情況的話確實會衝擊到營運這個也是不得不去做一個思考的地方那其實也就是說在惡性競爭底下外部第三者他的介入的空間競爭對手"},{"start":3120.06,"end":3121.562,"text":"案（一）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。"},{"start":3138.197,"end":3157.914,"text":"我們通過了那萬一這種情況發生怎麼辦所有的版本幾乎都會碰到這樣的一個情況這個是我們在立法的時候我們必須要去思考的一個地方所以揭弊者保護我比較不會站在說政黨誰提出來誰不提出來我是從頭到尾我一直在思考這個問題就是說像這種情況我們怎麼辦"},{"start":3160.168,"end":3160.749,"text":"案案案案案"},{"start":3178.557,"end":3200.571,"text":"也不是只有台灣如果真的通過的話也不是只有台灣啊別的國家人家也會這樣做一個區分我是說以台灣目前的現況我們現況確實是幾個人的這種小企業最多那另外呢我反而我反而有在思考一個問題啊就是大家對揭弊的一個範圍的我認為不要用市場喊價的方式啊"},{"start":3205.148,"end":3232.967,"text":"不管是你從貪汙到黑金黑槍毒到食品勞動安全的部分這看起來都很有魄力可是你那個結果裡面我們又如果再放進去一個概括授權你說通過了那範圍你主管機關你自己去公告這也漏氣了馬上就漏氣了我都覺得有太過於空白授權"},{"start":3234.426,"end":3256.177,"text":"讓你們自己去定要嘛我就立法院我們就是要規範那個範圍是大家再來想一下不要說就只有就全部的我如果今天你有法務部我做你部長這部分我都通過你要很窮那範圍到你室內在等的你這樣還對我這個大家我提出來讓大家做一個思考一下好不好謝謝那現在我們請省委員薄洋發言"},{"start":3263.583,"end":3263.924,"text":"法律部長"},{"start":3279.173,"end":3286.34,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司"},{"start":3295.289,"end":3312.508,"text":"這跟我們那時候在討論那一個新住民的基本法有點類似我們其實在很多地方都有鄉住民相關的一些行政措施然後行政指導命令等等之類的但是當時可能是很多人認為不足所以說要訂一個母法所以新住民基本法把它包起來"},{"start":3313.269,"end":3331.731,"text":"但其實說真的就算沒有這個基本法我們原本對於新住民的措施也都持續那證人保護其實也是很類似但最大的差別當然就是我們現行的證人保護法比較多都還是在追溯以後不是在追溯以前那如果我們今天用這樣的一個立法目的來看我們現在訂的這一個追溯者保護法"},{"start":3332.492,"end":3332.512,"text":"案 。"},{"start":3351.539,"end":3376.515,"text":"那白領犯罪我的博士論文就是寫白領犯罪這是我個人的專長那白領犯罪在犯罪學裡面最好的方式不是揭弊最好的方式一直以來都是透明化也就是說你越透明你就越能夠讓公部門去做相關的追訴所以譬如說你看像我們這邊公費助理的這個樣貌你要不要揭露你今天政黨內部的這個運作要不要透明"},{"start":3376.715,"end":3376.735,"text":"案 。"},{"start":3393.061,"end":3393.642,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":3421.318,"end":3437.612,"text":"當他找我簽的時候我還是跟他講我對於這個私人的部分畢竟還是沒有那麼贊成就是因為公部門當然應該先引領先先行但即使就算在公部門的部分都會有陷入我剛剛那個苛究就是我們現在針對透明的法制是不完善的"},{"start":3438.152,"end":3464.309,"text":"然後我們這個透明的法制不完善所以追訴的部分不完善我相信這邊很多的委員在這個質詢的時候也會常常抱怨說啊這個公務機密啊什麼等等之類的這個也是透明的一部分嘛如果這些事情比如說我們改文書的處理規則把透明的機制做得更好我們其實不需要像這樣的一個方式所以即使在公部門都有這樣的一個疑慮的話那我會認為至少私部門的部分應該先暫緩這是第一個"},{"start":3467.331,"end":3467.751,"text":"二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":3484.111,"end":3503.528,"text":"有些證據就是沒有辦法取得就只有在內部的那個人知道所以這又是另外一個比較堅強的一個理由說好雖然我剛講前面那個理由是不充分但第二個理由我個人認為是充分但如果把這個第二個理由放進來的話就會形成一個狀況其實除了貪污就是收賄這件事情以外很容易無法取得"},{"start":3504.709,"end":3520.246,"text":"這個所謂相關證據的其實就是國安案件那如果是這個樣子的話照理說如果用這樣的立法目的來出發我們一開始在範圍的定定應該是要把國安放進來才對但我們國安並沒有在這個裡面不過我就大家看了這個所有的版本國安其實不在裡面"},{"start":3520.786,"end":3547.836,"text":"那為什麼當時沒有把國安放在裡面很重要的一個考量就是假設你現在設計的這個制度結果這個社會往前進然後尤其台灣是一個非常注重國安的國家我們畢竟有一個敵國的威脅所以可能開始就有人說是不是要把國安放進去但是把國安一旦放進去之後因為這個法如果今天公司部門並行的話它所造成的氛圍是什麼就是揭弊者就在你身邊這一句話其實不是我講的"},{"start":3548.576,"end":3568.189,"text":"這句話是當時這一個布版的時候那時候一起幫忙做的那一個徐恆達老師這他寫在他的期刊論文裡面的這個當然並不是什麼很大的問題但如果今天把國安放進來的話就會變成匪諜就在你身邊了而台灣就會進入到那樣的一個模式所以這也是為什麼就是說就整體的這一個基礎文化面"},{"start":3568.729,"end":3586.432,"text":"我們絕對是肯定今天揭弊者需要被保護證人需要被保護這是一定的事情但問題是如果按照這一個方式就是公司一起並行走下去的話再把我們講的不容易取得證據的案件不斷的增加因為有些甚至會有一些概括授權"},{"start":3587.313,"end":3613.483,"text":"那這個高高授權一進來的話它的範圍它的過道會變成一種全景的這種監視社會那這種監視社會的副作用可能是我們必須要考量的所以基於這樣的一個理由不管是剛剛講的前面我們剛剛講的因為我們基於前面需要取得一些利的等等的這些理由我認為這個是不夠充分一直到後面的我們說過今天要取得這些情報的這個理由後面這個我覺得是比較充分的"},{"start":3613.843,"end":3637.536,"text":"所以會基於這兩個理由等一下在主條的時候我們我譬如說以我個人我比較會有意見的都會是第一個是司部門的一個加入然後再來是範圍的問題但接下來進入了譬如說我們公園內部的啦到底要不要獨立的委員會然後然後呢這個中間的那一個這個什麼他的不利益的措施應該要怎麼去防止通報的程序我反而覺得這一個應該就是"},{"start":3638.717,"end":3640.818,"text":"草案案件事務委員黃偉源謝謝主席今天終於進入了《揭弊者保護法》的排審"},{"start":3656.754,"end":3678.729,"text":"這是一個延宕非常久的法案在過去這幾年當中各式各樣的討論都有今天列席的法務部部長上次有機會跟你討論吹哨者保護法是您在當連政署署長的時候也就是在第九屆國會的時候那個時候你連政署署長的身份有列席司法法制委員會"},{"start":3679.895,"end":3697.471,"text":"那時候很多委員在兩次的審查當中我們在主條針對每一個條文其實都有經過深入的交換意見那時候你也有代表法務部表達你的看法我相信相關的會議記錄在立法院公報裡面通通都有"},{"start":3699.225,"end":3712.289,"text":"剛剛委員所提出來的意見我都尊重台灣本來就是一個多元的社會有人認為公部門先行有人認為公司部門要合併這樣子的討論其實在過去這幾年來不斷在發生當中"},{"start":3719.661,"end":3741.232,"text":"討論都很健康都非常的好但我不認為這應該成為阻礙整個立法程序往前邁進的理由所以我很期待就是說大家對於有關於吹哨者保護法的主體範圍客體範圍大家有不同的看法都可以提出邱振東一來"},{"start":3742.443,"end":3768.336,"text":"因為我們在法律談法律的時候就不要空泛的談啊空泛的談就好像我也不曉得該怎麼加以形容你認為主體範圍要限制在哪裡你認為客體範圍要限制在哪裡那就像提案的委員一樣就把版本拿出來那我們在組條的時候好好的看可不可以凝聚共識那如果沒有辦法凝聚共識啊也沒有辦法"},{"start":3769.617,"end":3794.485,"text":"我自己為什麼會採取有關於公司部門合併這樣子的態度我們在2017年思改國事會議的時候所達到的結論就是這個樣子就公司部門合併的部分要研擬吹哨者保護、揭弊者保護法第二個部分在我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告當中"},{"start":3796.127,"end":3801.298,"text":"有好幾次包括國外委員大家也都是做這樣子的建議當然"},{"start":3803.971,"end":3830.059,"text":"法務部的立場似乎後來有所改變那按照我的瞭解其實也不是法務部的立場有所改變是法務部的版本送到行政院裡面的時候負責審查的政務委員他有一個比較強烈的一些看法那這個我相信在過去這幾年我非常密切的在觀察揭弄者保護法推動或者是被阻礙的過程當中"},{"start":3831.28,"end":3859.403,"text":"各式各樣的力量或者是不同的看法參與其中這也都無可厚非反映了臺灣多元社會的本質我只是希望說今天在審法案的時候大家有不同的看法都很好也都很健康等到具體條文的時候我們一條一條來go over要不然的話我們如果到2024年的今天如果還是為了說公部門"},{"start":3860.524,"end":3885.115,"text":"先走還是公部門合併大家沒有共識這件事情本來我老實講本來就有不一樣的看法要有共識是非常非常的困難還繼續卡在這個地方造成法案沒有辦法繼續往前邁進的阻力我覺得這可能也不是我國把國際反貪腐公約我們把它"},{"start":3887.333,"end":3912.44,"text":"成為我國法律規範的一部分或者是說我們還花了不少錢請了國際的專家學者來針對我們所抵觸的國家報告加以審查甚至國際的學者在之前的審查當中其實話還講得蠻重的對於我們在致病吹哨者保護法上面的延宕"},{"start":3914.871,"end":3939.085,"text":"多有所指責。」我相信這個歷程有參加會議的法務部的官員我相信都聽得非常非常的清楚那最後對於私部門對於私部門在中小企業組那邊到底會負擔什麼樣子所謂的責任義務我覺得恐怕還是要回到摧殊者保護法他的本質"},{"start":3940.626,"end":3957.674,"text":"他的本質,基本上他就是不要因為他的揭弊行為而遭受到不利益的處分。至於說所謂的揭弊行為到底是揭弊還是我們比較傳統文化概念當中的撂杯仔撂者之間這本來就是"},{"start":3960.852,"end":3986.091,"text":"這個是文化跟觀念上面討論的問題這個不會去牽涉到有關於主體範圍跟客體範圍的爭議我為什麼會這樣講因為目前三件在各個不同的法規當中包括勞動基準法包括環境保護包括食品安全在勞動基準法的脈絡當中"},{"start":3988.314,"end":4003.406,"text":"會不會有所謂廖伯亞的事情?有啊!那就要看你怎麼看他嘛!我的老闆沒有遵守勞動基準法這個員工去舉發老闆那我們到底要把他稱為揭弊還是要把他稱為廖伯亞?問題是在我們的勞動基準法裡面就已經規定了僱主不可以因為受僱人他去檢舉"},{"start":4015.7,"end":4039.634,"text":"而對他做不利益的處分。」那我們在勞動基準法的脈絡裡面有因為擔心他是撂北仔還是吹哨在勞動基準法的範圍當中這對不可以因為他檢舉僱主違反勞動法規而做不利益的處分有因為受僱者"},{"start":4041.374,"end":4066.4,"text":"或者是有關於僱主他們規模的大小而做任何的區別對待嗎?沒有啊理由很簡單啊他的核心內容就是你不能因為他做他檢舉的行為而有任何不利的處分"},{"start":4067.817,"end":4093.457,"text":"至於說揭弊者保護法施行以後到底對僱主會造成什麼樣子的負擔那個法尊的成本所謂的法尊的成本會不會太高到底呈現在條文裡面設計的第幾條要僱主去做什麼樣的行為那跟我們現行散件在各個不同的單行法規當中不可以因為檢舉人他的檢舉"},{"start":4095.41,"end":4121.817,"text":"而有不利益的處分有不利益的對待彼此之間的差別在哪裡是不是有因為這樣的差別而有正當化去做區別對待的理由我相信相關的討論在台灣不是第一天才發生這也不是什麼新穎的法律當然我也可以理解也有一些學者"},{"start":4122.915,"end":4148.526,"text":"可能在我們上一次處理揭弊者保護法的時候所採取的態度跟這一次在處理揭弊者保護法的時候除其立法院的公聽會自己的看法都有所改變那這個我也都尊重那但是我們從2017年世改國是會議一路走到現在現在已經2024年了"},{"start":4150.985,"end":4176.384,"text":"如果2017年施改國事會議也不是說什麼絕對牢不可破既然是施改國事會議我們就要把它奉承金科玉律絕對不可破要改變也不是不能改變但是那段歷史沒有辦法被抹掉在施改國事會議裡面多少人參與大家都參與大家都討論也有共識"},{"start":4180.031,"end":4193.122,"text":"我們針對聯合國反貪腐公約所舉行的會議找國際專家來所做的評論這些都有很具體文獻上面的記錄那話雖然是這樣講我對於接下來在規範上"},{"start":4198.737,"end":4224.031,"text":"接下來在規範上我很清楚的表達我的看法是說我贊成公司部門合併我的立場是我贊成公司部門合併那但是我也會尊重多數委員的看法也就是說如果今天立法院多數大家的看法是說公部門先行"},{"start":4225.595,"end":4249.116,"text":"公部門先行我在表達了我的看法以後最後我的版本表決輸掉我都會接受因為我覺得這件事情一定要往前走這件事情一定要往前走只有先公部門的先走如果最後法案到23讀以後的結果是這個樣子"},{"start":4251.943,"end":4256.276,"text":"我覺得也沒有關係這反映出了台灣的民主社會我們國會"},{"start":4257.932,"end":4285.623,"text":"代表人民所做出來的法案政策跟價值的選擇在民主原則之下我當然要接受那只是說我從第九屆的國會積極的推動吹哨者保護法那時候委員會的審查全程參與到最後很遺憾有一些外部的主力所謂有一些外部的主力就打開偏裝數量化"},{"start":4287.028,"end":4315.13,"text":"就是老闆不希望被規範就沒有排上院會嘛那好不容易我們到這一屆的國會又有這樣子的機遇又有這樣子的機會我的立場還是一樣公司部門合併的來加以規範那但是如果多數的意見是公部門先行我也不會因為這樣子而阻擋這個法案往前走"},{"start":4316.147,"end":4337.906,"text":"會不會遺憾當然會遺憾那但是這是選擇的結果那我們大家都要接受那還是要採取所謂的第三種規範的模式所謂第三種規範的模式基本上還是公司部門合併還是公司部門合併那但是為了要去排除為了要去排除"},{"start":4339.506,"end":4362.229,"text":"可能有一些委員希望要幫中小企業組發聲這樣子的美意我也都可以理解那你如果要排除中小企業組排除中小企業組他們可能有過多的負擔雖然在法案裡面那個負擔就所何止指的到底是什麼可能到主條的時候我們看會更清楚"},{"start":4363.67,"end":4381.689,"text":"你要先把中華企業組排除先處理上市櫃公司或是公發公司這個是第三種可能的模式那我覺得這個法案是這個社會期待已久的法案也是我們在過去這幾年"},{"start":4383.03,"end":4393.33,"text":"不管是斯卡國式會議還是我國在推動國際反貪腐公約當中裡面我們應該要去負的國家義務"},{"start":4396.468,"end":4425.135,"text":"這都已經討論了非常久那要採取我剛講的公司部門合併只有公部門或是公司部門合併那我們只限於上市櫃或公發公司的大公司把中小企業組排除那我覺得在整個法案審議討論的過程當中大家都可以討論那只不過說現在我們在檯面上面有的版本目前啦在檯面上面有的版本大概就是"},{"start":4426.431,"end":4443.857,"text":"我看起來都是公司部門合併我沒有看到有一個版本是只有公部門的那就法務部的立場來講上一次上一次我們在進行法案"},{"start":4445.094,"end":4447.356,"text":"法務部提出建議條文嗎?有還是沒有?"},{"start":4474.935,"end":4500.961,"text":"目前那個法案還在行政院審查中對啊我這樣講好了齁如果今天行政院只審查半年或只審查一年立法院這邊沒有等你們是給你們太重的責任但整部法案在立法院待了在行政院待了多久了非常久的一段的時間好幾年的時間"},{"start":4502.812,"end":4522.097,"text":"我們在審法案的時候我不可能等了這麼多年了以後單純的因為行政院沒有提出他們的版本讓整個法案的審查延宕所以今天如果法務部的立場是你們只想處理公部門的"},{"start":4522.984,"end":4550.375,"text":"那也沒有關係那你們就把你們建議的條文拿出來嘛那我相信在場有很多委員剛剛發言內容我聽起來似乎是比較贊成公部門先行私部門先不要處理那你法務部如果有提一個條文出來的話那也可以去容納這些委員寶貴的意見啊說啊那我們最起碼在檯面上有一個版本是只有公部門的"},{"start":4551.516,"end":4579.844,"text":"那如果檯面上有個版本是只有公部門的話這樣我們也才比較有討論的依據嘛因為到時候不管是委員會處理完進入黨團協商或者是進入院會的時候不管是AB兩個版本的對立還是ABC三個版本我們終究最後要做出一個政策選擇出來嘛所以我再確認一次法務部今天是沒有打算要提出任何建議條文出來是嗎"},{"start":4583.26,"end":4609.479,"text":"目前是沒有好 那就 那就沒有辦法了嘛那我們現在就只能按照在檯面上有的幾個版本來作為討論的基礎那其他委員如果認為現在在檯面上跨黨派的委員所提出來的版本台灣民眾黨 台灣民眾黨團的版本但我可以跟大家講我們開放心胸不會堅持自己的版本譬如說第一條的部分"},{"start":4610.259,"end":4631.54,"text":"第一條的部分我會覺得像是民進黨的林月琴委員等17人提案跟廖偉翔等18人委員提案分別是民進黨的委員跟中國國民黨的委員這兩個委員就第一條所做的提案我看了內容"},{"start":4632.897,"end":4658.086,"text":"那個內容就是按照我們在第九屆國會的時候第九屆國會的時候所通過的第一條一模一樣那我覺得也非常的好第一條的條文我台灣民眾黨黨團也不會要堅持用我自己的版本就按照廖偉翔委員跟林月琴委員等人他們的提案因為跟第九屆那個時候法務部"},{"start":4659.594,"end":4670.765,"text":"法務部,我還記得次長陳明堂,廉政署署長鄭明謙第一條喔,光第一條,我們每一個字大家共同討論共同參與所凝聚的共識"},{"start":4672.405,"end":4696.022,"text":"那個時候在第9屆第一條所擬具的共識但我們現在這一屆有民主進步黨的委員也有中國國民黨的委員都提案覺得那個時候說你的這個條文很不錯那我也會願意表達支持那我想就大體討論的部分就大的架構的部分跟審這個法案的基本態度先做說明 謝謝好 謝謝國昌委員"},{"start":4699.264,"end":4723.337,"text":"那個黃委員我自己今天就我的版本的部分我會提一個修正東西因為大家的版本都非常的類似那反而是讓選擇的範圍變小了那我自己去這段時間我有思考還有思考到那個法務部上一次我總質詢說他們給我的一些想法還有我去思考到目前我國還有一個東西叫政人保護法所以我們在權衡之下我覺得"},{"start":4724.522,"end":4748.268,"text":"我會有做一些修正所以這我之後會再提這樣我會讓版本可以多幾個大家可以多做選擇這樣那我們還是就依法論法我們不講其他的想法在裡面好那下一位剛剛是那個省委員先主席各位同仁我想這個剛才大家在大體討論過程中大家的發言"},{"start":4750.609,"end":4775.023,"text":"以及我們接下來如果要進入主條很快的到第三條我們就必須面對目前大家包括剛剛前面大力討論所所討論的焦點就是說這個揭弊者保護法究竟是要公司合併處理或者是公部門先行這樣子的選擇這部分如果說"},{"start":4777.011,"end":4806.293,"text":"一個方式是大家等一下就是竹條的時候到這一條大家就來討論爭執到底是要公部門先行還是要還是要這個公司合併處理這是一種選擇另外一種選擇就是大家在進入竹條之前大家就這個部分大家是不是能夠先有一些共識那我想這個一定是等一下討論的關鍵因為它法條它就是第三條馬上就碰到竹條進入竹條馬上就碰到"},{"start":4807.757,"end":4822.538,"text":"他也是整個這一部揭弊者保護法接下來後面所有法條他的整個法律效果究竟基於哪一些部門他最關鍵的一個問題所以我個人是建議說是不是大家就這個"},{"start":4824.195,"end":4847.967,"text":"我們要今天這裡沒有法務部的版本沒有行政院的版本那我們就七個委員我看到有七個委員或黨團的提案大家來進行討論在這樣的討論基礎之下大家是不是能夠就這個部分先有一些公示我們才進入主條否則的話等一下進入主條馬上又是同樣的問題這是我個人的第一個建議"},{"start":4849.585,"end":4874.357,"text":"那這個揭弊者保護法的版本這個問題其實也就這個剛剛黃委員所講的其實它也就凸顯了這個就揭弊者保護法它所集於的這個範圍究竟是要不要包括四部門這個部分確實在社會上有極高度的爭議我想這個所有我們提案委員也知道就是說這個"},{"start":4877.375,"end":4900.526,"text":"如果說我們今天的法案大部分法案都是公部門先行我想今天這個揭弊者保護法可能他會已經早就順利的通過了那這個公司分離處理這個也不是說哪一個黨或者是誰大家站在企業主的立場也不是其實"},{"start":4902.304,"end":4931.272,"text":"其實許多的這個這個剛剛大家發言所講的這些中小企業組大家的心聲啦齁對於說現在目前的的這樣子我們《揭弊者保護法草案》是法案我現在目前七個版本全部都是公司公司整個合併公司合併處理這七個版本全部都是啦齁那這個剛才也有委員質疑說那法務部今天會不會提出法務部的建議條文建議版本事實上"},{"start":4932.898,"end":4956.05,"text":"法務部不是沒有心中的想法部長也不是沒有心中的想法但是行政一體你今天法案送到行政院行政院沒有通過這個法案你今天法務部就不可能自己提出來說那我法務部主張什麼那你置行政院於何地或者說今天行政院沒有通過這個法案那你說那政部長你過去當連任署署長的時候你所講的條文你今天拿出來"},{"start":4957.355,"end":4977.815,"text":"建議看看這個不行嘛這個這個審查法案法務部或者法務部長個人他們的立場都不能夠在今天的會議上面提出建議條文這個是行政一體的大原則他不能說行政院沒有通過那我來提我今天在委員會審查的時候我來來講我的建議版本這個就行政論理上他就是不行的所以"},{"start":4979.011,"end":5007.179,"text":"今天整個討論如果等下進入主條就顯然我們這個行政這個法務部他就沒有辦法提出他的建議條文這個是不是部長不行也不是說部長不願意而是確實確實基於行政議題法務部沒有辦法提出在這裡跳過行政院提出他們個別的建議條文這是沒有辦法的那這個剛才在各位委員的發言裡面大家都提到了其實大家也都知道"},{"start":5009.17,"end":5018.601,"text":"剛發言內容也都講有各式各樣的力量本來就有不同的看法這個就是一個現在就揭弊者保護法的討論過程中的一個事實這個"},{"start":5021.749,"end":5045.347,"text":"有關這些上市規公司有上市規公司他們的想法和看法這些中小企業組有中小企業組的看法這個就是現在的一個現實所以我想我們做立法委員大家作為民意代表作為民意的代表包括提案委員、洪孟楷委員他在選區裡面他也要面對各種各式各樣不同的企業大家都一樣所以"},{"start":5047.426,"end":5065.704,"text":"所以這個我們做立法委員在這裡討論今天要在這裡討論要在這裡立法我們就必須必須要把各方各式各樣的力量大家全部納進來一起討論這個才是我們這個立法上面這個負責的做法那這個"},{"start":5068.547,"end":5096.314,"text":"我們揭弊者保護法的立法是當年在司法施改國事會議上面大家的公示這部分剛剛黃委員有以再闡明那事實上他開始進入立法程序之後他確實就引起了尤其是以台灣最廣大的中小企業主最大的擔心跟聲音這個部分也是不爭的事實那過去"},{"start":5097.864,"end":5126.862,"text":"我記得過去在這個相關的交通法規立法的時候大家對於這個交通法規立法的時候提出的這個這個這個民眾檢舉齁我們也設立了相當完善的制度但是真正實施下去之後事實上社會對於這個所謂檢舉達人這樣子的現象這個這個在民間後來也造成了很大很大的這個這個民意的的力量我想所有民意代表大家都知道那"},{"start":5128.696,"end":5154.655,"text":"這是我所舉的一端另外就在就在這個一個禮拜一個多禮拜之前我們桃園市政府桃園市政府就提了這個有關桃園食安檢舉腐爛你取消吹哨獎金吹哨獎金在10月這個這個上個月10月22號這個桃園市政府所發的新聞稿清楚地講說因為這個食安檢舉腐爛你取消"},{"start":5157.887,"end":5158.554,"text":"這個這個吹嘲者獎金"},{"start":5159.947,"end":5183.995,"text":"這樣子的所有的這些的未來我們今天通過立法之後所可能發生的事情我們在今天作為立法者我們都必須要預見所以大家在討論過程中是還是回到剛才大家每一個委員所講的究竟要公部門先行還是公私合併處理這部分先達成公私否則接下來的法案很難很難再往下繼續討論我認為這個部分我是做這樣的建議"},{"start":5188.632,"end":5204.263,"text":"那這個其實剛才各位委員在發言中也都講到了就是包括黃委員剛剛也提到就是像勞基法舉勞基剛舉勞基法為例現在目前揭弊者保護法本身沒有通過的情況之下並不是台灣就沒有"},{"start":5207.808,"end":5226.895,"text":"案案 實質的揭弊者保護制度,並不是沒有,事實上剛剛所舉的例子裡面,包括牢記法,包括閃見目前的所有這些有關這個揭弊者的這些相關權益的保障,保障這些揭弊者不受這個他在不受他這個這個揭弊行為之後,不受這個不利益的處分的這些相關法令,閃見在"},{"start":5228.336,"end":5228.716,"text":"案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5250.548,"end":5276.538,"text":"合併處理要處理到什麼程度是剛剛所講的例如說由委員所舉例的上市歸公司或者是要整個擴及到中小企業這個東西我想這個是等一下進入主條之後一定在馬上第三條裡面大家就最大的爭論所以這部分我是建議說我們是不是在進入主條之前大家就這個部分大家先"},{"start":5278.318,"end":5299.205,"text":"來討論,看是不是有一些共識,以上。那個洪委員先主席,謝謝。司法及法制委員會因為今天我是提案委員之一,也因此我特別過來也希望說能夠趕快進行到主條審查。"},{"start":5300.305,"end":5320.222,"text":"那剛剛我的原則一向都是我不點名別人別人也不需要點名我我們就是就法論法但既然剛剛有委員點名到我我也就特別一定要回應司法法制委員會的所謂揭弊者保護法到目前為止沒有行政院版本到底是誰的責任"},{"start":5323.017,"end":5333.907,"text":"2017年8月12號司改國是會議完了之後到現在將近3000天了3000個日子過去了還沒有接受者保護法"},{"start":5334.96,"end":5353.298,"text":"那那個時候行政院你們到現在放在官網上面還有你們107年108年提出來的政院版那時候寫的有多好聽基於愛護防護保護的精神推動揭弊者保護法"},{"start":5354.119,"end":5371.888,"text":"因為公部門的弊端跟私企業不法行為界限難以一分為二而揭弊者跟被揭弊者的身份關係亦非單一法律關係可以涵蓋故避免產生公司部門揭弊者權益之落差以以專法一併審酌併定"},{"start":5374.742,"end":5393.127,"text":"這不是我寫的字眼這是你法務部交給行政院到最後送出來的版本公告的總說明字眼公告完畢之後 各方的意見完了退縮了 丟了 收回去了"},{"start":5394.468,"end":5415.79,"text":"第9屆落幕了到第10屆我們四個黨團的委員都有吹哨者保護法相關的版本出來就遲遲等不到行政院的版本民進黨也配合演出啊反正我就不排啊第10屆我人數比較多啊你奈我何所以第10屆就這樣四年一事無成就過啦"},{"start":5417.281,"end":5443.223,"text":"那我真的很感謝現在吳宗憲委員能夠把吹哨者保護法再排入啊因為之前我們就講是說這是所謂還權於民啊真的是保護人民的狀況所以這也是為什麼我從第10屆一進來立法院到現在快五年的時間我真的心的念的都認為說吹哨者保護法應該要立法應該要讓它通過"},{"start":5444.636,"end":5463.741,"text":"那剛剛有委員講啊我們要先取得共識再來進主條那我請教現在共識是什麼我看不出來欸七個委員的版本跟一個黨團的版本全都一致的時候然後你跟我講沒有共識拿出版本啊啊你們的版本在哪裡"},{"start":5466.394,"end":5495.534,"text":"有民進黨的委員林月琴有國民黨的委員有民眾黨黨團七個委員的版本跟一個黨團版本方向都一致你跟我講沒有共識是我的邏輯的問題還是你們有問題那如果說你認為說有哪裡不妥的地方提出版本啊行政院沒有版本那剛剛講說要有共識的人也沒有版本還是我們召委最好心啊"},{"start":5496.499,"end":5523.352,"text":"兆美說還要再提修正動議讓大家有討論我也開宗明義強調修法的過程我是理想主義啊但是我也知道現實啊我也知道說很多事情我們來共同努力推動取得一個國人可以接受最大平衡點所以能夠說服能夠提出你的條文能夠提出你的說法我可以傾聽"},{"start":5524.898,"end":5543.608,"text":"有道理的我也可以接受但是不是這樣子今天來什麼東西都沒有白紙一張我還在找奇怪我想說今天那行政院相關的版本至少你主條你的說明你的反對你的贊成在哪裡也沒有那我們等一下主條要怎麼主條然後現在一直跟我們講沒有共識不覺得很可笑嗎"},{"start":5551.175,"end":5552.797,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":5578.075,"end":5595.918,"text":"除了質詢以外我也都希望能夠跟大家共同討論那我真的拜託各位委員如果說真的要回歸到一開始開宗明義行政院那個時候2017年司改會議或是行政院那個時候提出來的初衷"},{"start":5598.348,"end":5616.318,"text":"法治聯名透明以善意對具合理事證的檢舉人提供必要保護的適當措施,避免遭受不公正的待遇。台灣要進步,吹哨者保護法真的應該要在我們這個會期讓它三度通過。謝謝。"},{"start":5621.443,"end":5632.371,"text":"引述的剛剛的討論基本上我是非常贊成洪孟楷委員他所表達的看法就是說我們今天在討論法案要有討論的標的"},{"start":5634.777,"end":5660.263,"text":"我剛剛第一輪發言我也說了不同的委員有不同的看法有委員認為說先放在公部門也OK那就請把修正動議拿出來要不然我們不知道在討論什麼剛剛有委員說要先有共識才能夠進入竹條但不可能有共識嘛在國會裡面的運作規則從來不是有共識才能往前進"},{"start":5661.55,"end":5684.765,"text":"有不同的看法那你就把你希望你覺得最好你你希望過的法案拿出來放在檯面上才有討論的基礎啊那否則的話以現在討論放在檯面上七個版本可以作為我們逐條討論的標的的七個版本全部都是公司部門合併啊"},{"start":5686.36,"end":5686.38,"text":"案 。"},{"start":5709.76,"end":5733.46,"text":"那剛剛也有委員阿很體貼幫法務部說那個行政院沒有沒有版本所以法務部不宜自己提出來不會阿我之前在司法法制委員會一直到現在經常阿看到法務部提出自己的建議版本出來阿那我們今天的法務部他選擇不提出來我老實說我也尊重因為我給你們機會嘛"},{"start":5737.557,"end":5765.187,"text":"我再說一次今天離我這個法案今天離我這個法案是剛蹦出來的議題要等行政部門我們都願意等但問題是什麼我們的法務部跟司法院演繹了幾年啊這一屆新的國會我第一次質詢陳建仁院長的時候我就問他說你們《揭弊者保護法》的版本在哪裡"},{"start":5766.748,"end":5794.402,"text":"還在研議啊很快就會提出來啊還在研議很快就會提出來啊研議到現在十一月咧十一月咧等待的時間夠久了等待的時間夠久了那當然高院委員提到2017年思改國是會議的決議我也同意思改國是會議的決議啊不用是鐵板一塊"},{"start":5795.863,"end":5821.621,"text":"現在有不同的看法可以變更我再說一次司改國是會議的決議不用是鐵板一塊現在的政府有不一樣的看法也可以變更不同的委員有不一樣的看法也可以提出來都沒有問題但我們要有討論的標的嘛你如果認為要現在公部門司部門都不要那就請你拿討論的版本出來"},{"start":5823.075,"end":5845.538,"text":"否則的話我們目前就只能按照檯面上面的版本下去繼續審查從我們一開始詢答召委排公聽會到今天我想期間應該夠長了嘛那都沒有提出來也沒有關係今天要提修正動議也很好"},{"start":5846.874,"end":5874.121,"text":"那到底最起碼要有一個不一樣的東西來當作討論的標的嗎?譬如說公部門跟私部門那你要提一個版本把私部門全部都刪掉那也OK啊那你就提一個把私部門全部都刪掉的版本啊你不用等到第三條啦第一條你馬上就會碰到這樣的那沒有問題啊你可以有你的立場認為說我只要公部門那就提一個修正動力出來只有公部門"},{"start":5875.455,"end":5898.074,"text":"那現在的七個版本都是公私部門合併那沒有辦法有共識那沒有辦法有共識沒有關係啊那我們就按照民主程序來決定因為公說公有理婆說婆有理沒有一個人敢說我說我公私部門合併最有理想性那其他現實的考慮都不用考慮"},{"start":5900.109,"end":5923.828,"text":"公部門提的是說我這個公部門的部分雖然私部門沒有含礦但是我是基於現實上面的考慮不要讓企業主有太大的反彈公部門先行你有你的考慮這個在民主國家當中是一個很正常的現象那我們各自為各自的政策立場負責任這樣就好啦"},{"start":5925.378,"end":5951.326,"text":"所以我是不是歉意啦就是大體討論的部分公司部門的部分大家有的意見我相信大概都已經完了那是不是讓有不同意見的委員他們可以從法案的名稱到第一條第二條第三條提出他們的修正動議然後現在我們就繼續往下走這個是我的建議給主席參考"},{"start":5954.432,"end":5969.549,"text":"因為我這邊我自己也是提案人之一所以我這邊也會進行大體討論跟大家報告一下我的想法那我這邊先報告一下我的想法是我原本的提案的範圍是就大家從提案資料上面應該看得出來"},{"start":5970.43,"end":5989.1,"text":"那我其實一直希望就是把這個揭弊者保護法在這個會期把它推動過去這是我一直以來的希望所以在之前總諮詢的時候我也一直詢問院長以及部長到底有沒有要推這個揭弊者保護法的版本出來"},{"start":5990.04,"end":5995.124,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期"},{"start":6020.003,"end":6034.764,"text":"案案件,我認為這個東西在立法院不能等,再等下去就對不起國家了,所以這一次我就認為說這一定要排進去。但是我也不是說一個很極端的人,那我自己以前的實務經驗也告訴我,"},{"start":6038.366,"end":6061.771,"text":"案件,甚至在公司合併或彼此產業競爭的時候他會玩這種小招數所以我完全認同部長之前在總諮詢的時候跟我說的司部門你們還有所顧忌這個我是我這段時間我的思考我是認同以及剛才民進黨的幾位委員所提的我也蠻認同這個點的所以有關這個部分因為"},{"start":6062.791,"end":6078.172,"text":"行政院竟然沒有考量要送版本出來那我們也用心的去聆聽法務部行政院的想法以及其他不同委員的想法所以今天我就我自己的版本有一些修正"},{"start":6079.233,"end":6084.257,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6107.56,"end":6131.32,"text":"在不同的規模的私人公司我們如果一律要他就我們所謂的立法的目的是三保就是身份保障、人身安全保障以及工作權的保障是不是有辦法在各種規模的民間企業我都能做到這個點確實我自己還是打一個問號"},{"start":6132.901,"end":6133.822,"text":"法務部部長"},{"start":6155.715,"end":6157.756,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6182.148,"end":6182.168,"text":"國營企業"},{"start":6206.333,"end":6227.473,"text":"事務部門的部分我也不是說完全不要我也支持最終我們還是要走向連司部門都要有這個揭弊者的保護所以我今天我也會提一個那個附帶決議我會要求說當我們如果今天依照我的版本過那我會要求說在"},{"start":6228.274,"end":6244.456,"text":"案 施行後三年後開始檢討這個法案擴及到施部門的那個可能性然後再朝向修法去走我想說這樣子是一個橫憑風險以及利益之下我自己的考量"},{"start":6246.567,"end":6246.907,"text":"判決判決判決判決"},{"start":6265.467,"end":6292.039,"text":"律委同仁會對不起這個國家所以我覺得我會這樣子推動啦那施部門的話也不是說我們反對施部門施工施人公司的員工不要檢舉公司的違法我們也會鼓勵他因為我們目前還有一個正能保護法我們可以先用正能保護法在這三年的這空窗期間內我們先去填補這個問題那等到三年到了我們去發現"},{"start":6293.462,"end":6310.579,"text":"我們的那個揭弊者保護法在公部門施行之後的利弊我們再去修正成一個更適合這個國家社會尤其是私人公司的這個法案之後我們再來用心的把它修法通過這是我目前想法因為我跟各位報告一個點就是"},{"start":6312.25,"end":6330.969,"text":"我以前辦案的經驗當兩間公司在企業在競爭的時候甚至說企業併購的時候他都希望對方的股價暴跌那這時候他的玩法他就叫一個人去那家公司去應徵然後就在那家公司裡面去搞一些檢舉搞一些什麼等檢察官查了6個月"},{"start":6332.19,"end":6349.646,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司"},{"start":6351.207,"end":6355.889,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":6379.66,"end":6405.595,"text":"我本人對於這個這次的揭弊者保護法我個人就大體討論的部分我的發言好謝謝各位好那個中委員謝謝主席太好了我們召委排這個案果然是有備而來也很開心的看到一個修正動議這樣完整的提出那我再先做一個先是聲明我是希望有比較多的時間來研究召委主席所提出來的修正的版本那在這個之前"},{"start":6406.596,"end":6428.271,"text":"之前我對我們今天的法案審查推進的進度我表達一下大家可以思考的一件事情最近法務部做一件事情引起軒然大波後來法務部不得不撤回哪一個法案的預告就是關於墮胎罪的刑責刑罰提高的問題"},{"start":6429.386,"end":6429.546,"text":"案（二）委員"},{"start":6448.018,"end":6471.264,"text":"但是法務部他基於整體的他們的這個法則的一個未接的擴充啊他就把這樣的修法呢也納進來做公告所以我相信包括召委在內我想包括部長在內我今天特別提這個就是說其實呢社會上對於自己切身相關的法律他的修改其實他需要一點時間去理解跟反應的"},{"start":6472.558,"end":6488.046,"text":"其實法務部並沒有針對要對墮胎的刑責加重加大,並沒有。他只因應著整體的刑法的梯度的調整,他就一併把他納入公告。結果造成的結果呢,因為公告越覽嘛。"},{"start":6488.746,"end":6504.772,"text":"案 當他一定要預告的時候啊馬上觀音這個議題的公民團體馬上就在網路上開始串聯開始發聲那麼呢很多委員都受到了他們的詢問說這個法務部這個案子是怎麼跑出來的你們在立法院有沒有討論過"},{"start":6506.392,"end":6528.227,"text":"我們也是去跟法務部說了解才知道這個原來不是針對性的修法是一個整體性的調整並無意對這個其實實務上已經甚少援引處刑的法條與刑法的加大我舉這個例子就是說其實今天揭弊者保護法討論很久"},{"start":6529.708,"end":6557.178,"text":"但是整個社會上我們看到了為什麼我說一開始我就問公聽會在這個公聽會當中我們發現還是以一些比較具規模的企業團體舉例來講它雖然有一個叫做中華民國全國中小企業總會但是他們說有150萬家的中小企業我就很疑惑說來參加我們的立法研討會5月28號研討會這一位理事"},{"start":6557.978,"end":6574.904,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司"},{"start":6581.414,"end":6602.602,"text":"工程技術顧問這些商業同業工會他們都有講還有工業總會那單單從我看到在107年當時這5月28號的一個揭弊者保護法的草案的研修會現在是113年了113年這是6年前的那到現在我們回顧6年前這個事情提出來之後"},{"start":6603.601,"end":6623.842,"text":"到我們在113年7月8號就是我們主席召委呢排定的公聽會上呢我們再度去看被應邀來的學界業界的代表大概的意見呢也很接近只是說大家對於公部門先行或公司分流是越來越明確那這反映的什麼"},{"start":6624.483,"end":6653.621,"text":"反映經過這6年7年來大家對於施部門如何去落實或是去履行揭弊者保護這樣的一套法制度還是有所保留甚至在我們5月16號其實由召委安排的併案審查會當時有包括了我們在場的專委員跟審法委員其實不在場的謝榮介委員跟林思明委員基本上我看起來大家都是談公私分流"},{"start":6654.481,"end":6677.031,"text":"希望能夠公部門先行。」那如果在之前的併案審查我們本委員會的委員包括我們公聽會外界的聲音我覺得有兩個部分大家是有共識的公部門先行那公部門是不是可以用我們昭和為目前主席所提出的版本我覺得很值得我們來花時間研究我覺得這已經提出了一個方向"},{"start":6677.898,"end":6696.949,"text":"第二就是司部門的擔心到底目前是不是相關的企業他們都民間團體或者是這些小店家他們都了解到這個法之後到底對他有影響或沒有影響那其實也感謝剛剛主席有提到的像正能保護法這樣的思考"},{"start":6697.589,"end":6721.096,"text":"那其實在之前的委員的答覆當中其實過去我們所擔心的這98%以上的中小企業他們會不會因為這個揭弊者保護法因為一下子就適用到私部門那會造什麼衝擊他們有瞭解了嗎那麼有提到說什麼就有提到說現在的勞資正義調處過去我在地方政府任職的時候我們也經常發現勞資正義調處現在對於勞工跟僱主的權益關係的約束"},{"start":6725.157,"end":6750.371,"text":"案件,此事已經對於勞僱雙方他們在勞資爭議的時候有時候我們會看到是屬於內部的比如說受僱者因為勞資爭議他因為在內部他也舉發了僱主的其他的比如環保啦消防啦這些相關的這個法規上的他可能沒有落實執行那其實原本是一個就"},{"start":6753.006,"end":6774.574,"text":"案 發動來講他是一個勞資爭議但是呢他會變成是用檢舉的方式到公部門去形成類似這樣的一個作為那這還是只是說中小企業喔這些微型企業喔還不包括剛剛主席趙惠所說的大型的企業要併購啊他們會有這樣的一種商業上的攻防的行為這還不論所以呢到底揭弊檢舉"},{"start":6777.117,"end":6801.884,"text":"證人這些法的競合上是不是有充分的時間讓這些中小企業主這些勞僱雙方都有充分的方式去理解不至於就像我們剛剛說的墮胎的刑責加重的這樣的一個預告造成了各界一個突然的不要說驚慌或惶恐就是驚訝不知道怎麼因應那我是覺得以這樣的例子來說"},{"start":6803.024,"end":6824.242,"text":"我們同時可以看到過去這五六年來其實剛剛有委員也提到其實檢舉這樣的一個行為在台灣社會他其實必須他開始執行的時候大家感受到我在家門口的違規停車之前好像左鄰右舍相安無事現在就變成左鄰右舍互相報復的一種方法"},{"start":6824.682,"end":6852.892,"text":"那造成執法人員的一個困擾其實這裡面也反映出剛剛審判會委員所提到的揭弊者的保護法它其實的另外一個前面就是一個公部門的一個透明化或是公司企業的透明化如果這個透明化能夠達到適當的揭露其實單單是包括私人企業的營運的透明化就足以讓營運者不要侵存僥倖去想要去從事一些對公眾利益有傷害的行為"},{"start":6853.652,"end":6865.073,"text":"我再強調一次剛剛省委員所提到的一個透明的接入的制度大概就會涵蓋去預防防範不管是公司部門尤其是私部門因為"},{"start":6867.13,"end":6883.746,"text":"引力不公開所造成的大眾的一個監督的不知確如而造成他去有意呢去侵害公共利益我的意思說並不是透明公開由公眾來監督不是這個意思透明公開還不用公眾來檢舉"},{"start":6886.258,"end":6913.623,"text":"這些從事人員就應該有所忌憚而不敢去碰觸那原來這樣的一個透明公開的想法到了我們現在所說的檢舉達人是變成用人民來取代公權力的不足要去做這樣的耳目來對於並不完全公開但是只有少數的民眾他知道的行為去進行舉發的時候我們看到造成的結果就是大量的摩擦"},{"start":6914.423,"end":6936.884,"text":"案件,因為呢其實民間的檢舉啊跟公權力的判斷他的法定的要件是否足夠檢舉人未必能夠掌握所以我們看到很多檢舉就兩種情況一個是檢舉呢是徒勞無功的但是呢造成執法者的疲於奔命另外一種這個檢舉呢欸其實是缺乏一個全面性執法的關照的很多的交通違規其實我問過很多交通"},{"start":6938.605,"end":6956.58,"text":"案案 實施經驗﹚如果是駕駛人的這種行為他們考量到當下的情況雖然有可能是違規但是不至於對其他的用路人造人妨礙的時候基本上他們是不予舉發的但是如果只有照片或一個很短處的影片"},{"start":6957.541,"end":6986.508,"text":"案 當這樣的一個檢舉呢到交通司法機關的時候往往呢這些員警啊交通的裁罰呢他就必須開出去開出去的時候就變成被檢舉者啊還要到交通法庭上呢去做陳述去做說明去做反證我講的這些所謂的檢舉達人在過去這幾年來我們身為區議選出來的地方的民意代表我們受理到很多民眾的民怨其實他們未必不能理解說立法上"},{"start":6987.168,"end":7011.766,"text":"案 提供民眾檢舉的確是能有效嚇阻一些不法的行為但是如果制度的設計上沒有給民眾充分的去適應那相關的了解那就造成大量的摩擦的民怨那今天呢很樂於看到主席用修正動議的方式提出了一個以公部門跟國營事業為主的版本那麼是否呢可以容我們委員"},{"start":7012.346,"end":7039.823,"text":"簽名等19人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件事宜和部門相關的部門去做個瞭解然後我也覺得像這樣的一個揭弊者保護法很重要那麼事實上今天的討論如果能夠讓更多未來受到揭弊者保護法影響的相關人員包括人民或團體他能夠理解的話我相信對這個法令在推動的時候就不會造成了一些不必要的摩擦跟恐慌那最後回應剛剛委員提到的其實我們今天的立法途徑"},{"start":7040.543,"end":7041.243,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7064.656,"end":7072.282,"text":"有些路是我們可能走起來很崎嶇有些路可能是走起來走不通的那是不是這些地圖集我們還要一張一張的來"},{"start":7074.69,"end":7075.05,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7104.586,"end":7105.467,"text":"條文名稱及條稱的內容,我相信是值得我們支持肯定的。」"},{"start":7134.766,"end":7138.37,"text":"罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行罪行"},{"start":7160.558,"end":7189.717,"text":"案 當時沒有沒有我的意思我們一起在這邊一個條文一個條文弄然後我們主張公部門先行然後這個部分大家還要這邊反對這個意義就不大我就意義不大你們什麼時候可以針對公部門的部分大家現在的擔憂是對於很多中小企業或者說你公司部門並行產生的衝擊但是如果採取現在是"},{"start":7190.918,"end":7216.684,"text":"案案案單軌先行公佈門的部分。」您怎麼有一個態度啊?或者說以現在吳宗憲委員的版本,你們認為哪一些地方他有自在難行的地方,你們也應該要用你們的看法提出來討論啊?這是現實嗎?要不然買了你,買了你通過的條文,這特地保留了一個保留了一個,是救命啊,跟大家"},{"start":7217.657,"end":7243.25,"text":"那個版本搞不好會讓你們覺得更知愛難行啊那是不是你們也可以有比較成熟的看法來逐公大家來做一個討論會好一點這個我說實在話啦這個是以前幾年了我問幾屆了這個應該是第9第8屆還是第9第9因為真的有啊"},{"start":7248.342,"end":7273.331,"text":"那不是說那個時候提出來就是一定要跟著走也都未必社會上還是要最大的共識可是今天這樣的討論完我發現公部門先行是有共識的兩邊都有共識的因為擔心的只是衝擊到事部門的部分是不是你們也可以考量一下我講的比較委婉你們應該要有你們的版本"},{"start":7275.271,"end":7280.436,"text":"考慮看看部長你看看因為大家講完這個意思就很清楚了"},{"start":7282.85,"end":7286.093,"text":"案（二）委員楊瓊瓊等22人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7310.236,"end":7329.664,"text":"那這部分其實在行政委員就充分的一個討論因為這個意見還是很難整合很難整合我們要參索各方的意見我想法律的可行性必須要大家有一個共識那我們是把這個共識部分我們就可以就先退這個我都贊成這個意見"},{"start":7331.482,"end":7331.502,"text":"案 。"},{"start":7356.292,"end":7364.343,"text":"刑政的版本我想我們可以再去做一個討論我想這部分既然我們有有這樣可以再聚焦"},{"start":7365.58,"end":7366.98,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":7398.833,"end":7424.674,"text":"行政院有提版本嗎?我補充一個點就是說因為已經拖很久了從第九屆到現在那其實相關的問題既然法務部已經有15個版本那表示法務部內部應該是有非常多的溝通嘛那因為剛剛那個中委員是希望說再給那個行政機關回去再去思考"},{"start":7425.214,"end":7425.234,"text":"案 。"},{"start":7432.662,"end":7434.663,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7462.602,"end":7463.463,"text":"案件,此外,此外,此外,此外。"},{"start":7487.027,"end":7506.329,"text":"公部門以及國營企業基本上他是沒有什麼競爭者的在沒有什麼競爭者的情況下如果都造成社會大亂你如果貿然的用到民間企業的話那會很恐怖會有非常多的中小企業甚至上市上位公司莫名其妙就爆發一個大事情股價暴跌"},{"start":7506.929,"end":7513.193,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":7536.388,"end":7547.225,"text":"我們要鼓勵說有問題還是他們的員工還是要出來檢舉但是就是在這段時間短時間的這幾年內我覺得可以利用正能保護法去填補這個"},{"start":7548.72,"end":7567.455,"text":"保護法草案案案件事宜﹚立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委"},{"start":7578.164,"end":7598.321,"text":"郭昌我再說明一次我們等行政院等法務部等得夠久了等得非常久一而再再而三的催促你們拿出你們的版本來就是說還在討論"},{"start":7599.844,"end":7625.124,"text":"那沒關係啊你們行政院就慢慢討論吧繼續不斷的演繹啊不斷的演繹啊演繹到看行政院到底什麼時候要有立場啊立法機關在等了這麼久以後絕對不可能啊因為行政院不斷的演繹啊持續的演繹啊一直演繹啊法案就不往前推啊"},{"start":7627.054,"end":7639.039,"text":"真正高明在阻擋立法的方式不是說反對是說知識體大要再多考慮從2017年斯卡爾國際會議到現在7年了7年了7年了還考慮不出來7年還想不出來還要再7年嗎還是再14年再21年"},{"start":7657.543,"end":7685.478,"text":"我自己留在反貪腐公寓開國際審查會議花納稅人的錢搞大拜拜找這麼多國際專家學者講的話自己都不會臉紅我前面發言我老實說我是希望比較和緩一點大家有不同的意見都好就往前進就往前進但我沒有辦法容忍配合行政部門繼續再拖"},{"start":7689.13,"end":7717.282,"text":"這件事情我沒有辦法容忍,配合行政部門繼續再拖。昭偉本與立法委員的職權,你綜合各方面的考慮,提出一個修正版本,我也尊重。我未必完全贊成,但我知道你怎麼想,我也尊重。那其他委員有不一樣的想法,歡迎提出修正動議來。那要不然的話,我們就一直在這邊打轉。"},{"start":7721.295,"end":7744.442,"text":"所以我是不是建議我們就繼續往下走你也不一樣的看法請容我再說明一次我們非常歡迎你按照你的看法提你的修正動議來你如果連昭緯的國營事業你都不贊成那你就提一個第一條的修正動議只有公部門阿私部門就把它完全刪除這也是一種立場但我們不可能"},{"start":7748.359,"end":7775.59,"text":"按照一個虛無縹緲完全不知道在哪裡的版本進行法案的討論跟審議啊今天中憲、昭偉跟其他委員連署提出了一個修正的版本我說我未必贊成但我會尊重因為我們最起碼還是負責任的在審法案繼續往前推嘛那要不然提這個7月版本出來的委員提的時間夠久啦"},{"start":7777.779,"end":7802.375,"text":"也巡打啦也開公聽會啦那是現在是只要有人說要等就一定要等嗎今天好不容易我真的等了很久了今天好不容易終於終於排審了今天我講的比較極端一點在政策立場上大家覺得說"},{"start":7804.406,"end":7833.385,"text":"你那個範圍沒有定下面條文錯綜複雜沒有辦法繼續往下走那沒有關係啊我們第一條就先表決啊各自為各自的政策立場負責嘛第一條表決完了確定是公部門還是昭緯的公部門加國營事業那還是其他委員提的公司部門你第一條定了以後我們接下來就往下走啦就按照那個方向就往前進啦"},{"start":7835.509,"end":7856.387,"text":"就不要說好像大家都覺得說啊你這樣子搞不弄這樣子弄沒有沒有很清楚的路徑然後很多條文都導致要保留這樣不好啊不希望委員會保留這麼多條文那沒有關係啊我們每一個人為自己的政策立場負責任確定了"},{"start":7859.585,"end":7866.329,"text":"我們就往下走不能一直在原地打轉啊拖太久了啊真的先那個翁委員"},{"start":7874.178,"end":7874.358,"text":"法務部提案"},{"start":7904.478,"end":7921.423,"text":"提案的方向是一致的基本上就是公司部門全部都涵蓋在內雖然說剛剛主席吳宗慶委員他有提了修正動議但是我認為無論如何我們就可以繼續往前進了就不要再拖時間這個時間已經拖太久了我們也知道現在台灣的弊案重申"},{"start":7926.784,"end":7927.765,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7952.605,"end":7954.786,"text":"主席提出修正動議事實上往前進了一步"},{"start":7974.69,"end":7985.336,"text":"那也就是我剛才我在大體討論的時候我所提的究竟是這個公司並行還是說公部門先行的部分"},{"start":7986.931,"end":8013.227,"text":"這個主席所提的修正同意基本上就是以公部門先行為主那這部分我們也覺得說這個可以這樣子我們就討論的基礎而且我們希望說能夠就這個版本我們能夠接下來往後再來看這個版本的這些相關內容但是剛才大家所提的齁其實我們回過頭來想"},{"start":8015.851,"end":8044.86,"text":"剛才委員大家一直說啊拖太久了我們等太久了但是我們今天回過頭來想看到昭偉的這樣子的修正動議我們是不是會覺得說還好那時候有拖還好有這個過程讓各方表達意見也讓我們的昭偉能夠思考到他原本所提的版本這個公司部門合併施行的這種版本的可能發生的問題"},{"start":8046.681,"end":8070.174,"text":"如果沒有這段時間大家的這個留下這個時間讓大家各方意見如果說在幾個月前大家就開會就表決就這樣子過了那可能今天連昭和也會非常扼腕的後悔那時候為什麼這樣子通過那所以今天我們有這樣的版本我覺得"},{"start":8071.038,"end":8096.173,"text":"不能說是原地踏步有提出這樣的修正動議我覺得今天就是有進展我認為說這個揭弊者保護法在經過這麼長時間大家對於公司部門是不是要合併實行這件部分好像看起來至少至少我們跟國民黨達成了一個共識民眾黨有不同的意見那我覺得這個就是進展啊這個不是原地踏步我覺得這就是進展那"},{"start":8097.802,"end":8115.12,"text":"所以我覺得是可以以這個主席所提的修正動議作為基礎但是畢竟這個是一個修正動議我們所看到今天議程上面的七個版本全部都是公司合併施行但是新的這個修正動議是公部門跟國營事業先行"},{"start":8117.895,"end":8139.541,"text":"那我們今天所要立的法是不是就以修正就我們就用修正動議的方式我們在今天大家要大家在這會議裡面就修正動議大家來來來來來研議就就直接的來討論通過然後再通過一個附帶決議說我們有適形意味的的附帶決議說我們先試今天先通過然後三年之後要檢討這個我覺得"},{"start":8143.272,"end":8167.737,"text":"這個我覺得與其我們今天通過這樣子的一個用修正動議提出來的一個法案再讓我們今天所有的委員我們今天才看到的這個法案我們今天再通過然後再用附帶決議再來說三年之後試行三年之後再來檢討那為什麼不好比如說再三個禮拜或再三個禮拜的時間讓大家就這個修正動議的內容"},{"start":8169.281,"end":8169.301,"text":"案 。"},{"start":8180.942,"end":8208.672,"text":"是不是應該有一個時間讓大家就今天主召委所提出來修正動議的內容讓大家回去研究一下這裡面有沒有問題而不是今天說我們今天提一個修正動議大家今天就照這個修正動議過然後再提一個附帶決議說我們事情先棄跨埋呀我們今天司法法制委員通過一個法案來棄跨埋呀棄殺你然後三年後我們再來檢討我覺得是不是我們"},{"start":8211.104,"end":8220.752,"text":"我們要大家就有一個想法就是說今天這樣不是我們沒有原地踏步我們確實是進展了一步讓大家有一些共識"},{"start":8221.804,"end":8248.014,"text":"就是因為過去有這樣的時間留下這樣的時間讓大家思考之後大家才會有今天的共識所以我是希望說我們委員會今天是不是大家能夠就這個修正動議再讓委員會一點時間也許回去召委可能再過幾天可能又有不同的想法這個誰知道還好之前有拖要不然今天不會有這樣子的修正動議出來對不對以上"},{"start":8251.684,"end":8260.095,"text":"我們依序就是有紅委員然後在中委員然後那個中委員還有那個楊委員我試著不帶情緒但是"},{"start":8269.384,"end":8294.557,"text":"剛有委員完美的示範什麼叫做站著說話不腰疼這句話含義其實我覺得趙偉您今天比法務部長更像法務部長因為你很負責任的把國家面臨到的問題以及我們食物經驗的問題還有有可能發生的問題並且解決的問題全部都提出來你很負責任"},{"start":8297.772,"end":8317.804,"text":"說實在話這個修正動議或者是吹哨者保護法我們只有討論幾個月嗎?錯了討論了7年了2017年開始之後第9屆就有吹哨者保護法討論行政院有版本到了2020年第10屆的時候我們也有提過吹哨者保護法"},{"start":8318.735,"end":8345.167,"text":"每年我們都要求法務部要提出相關版本質詢都質詢不知道幾次了到了2024年第11屆的時候才能夠真的再坐下來有大體討論跟要主條所以不是幾個月不是幾年是至少7年時間7年時間這中間發生了多少弊案這中間發生了多少不管是"},{"start":8346.363,"end":8367.179,"text":"疫苗採購快篩採購還是雞蛋採購還是所有爭議的弊案如果說有吹哨者的制度能夠駕馭保護的話是不是這些弊案有可能可以提早發生的一天不知道提早發現的一天不知道因為我們沒有這個法案保護"},{"start":8368.41,"end":8386.362,"text":"所以很簡單嘛我們還要犧牲國人生活權益多久我們才要真正認真的討論揭弊者保護法主條我認為是勢在必行因為今天我們七個委員的版本並且有黨團的版本本來就已經攤開來各黨團助理"},{"start":8390.069,"end":8416.579,"text":"行政部門也都已經研究這相關的條文而今天的這個修正動議其實只是範圍的一個部分條文內容沒有大幅度的一個改變也因此當然可以針對主條的討論來去做意見的一個彙整跟交流但我必須更要講啊我到目前其實還是沒有看到共識啊有委員一直講說有共識了有共識了沒有啊"},{"start":8417.924,"end":8437.202,"text":"七個委員的版本跟一個黨團的版本是公私合併我們提出的修正動議現在是吳宗憲委員召委並且謝榮介委員、羅志強委員跟洪孟楷委員的簽名啊充其量這個是吳宗憲委員提出來的修正動議啊這哪有共識"},{"start":8439.588,"end":8468.822,"text":"所以不用站著說話不腰疼然後現在貼上來哇趕快如果說有拿出版本負責任的白紙黑字的寫出來不要說想要通過什麼扭扭捏捏裝模作樣還不敢留下自己的名字這不是一個負責任的做法以上謝謝好那下一位我們請中委員"},{"start":8471.822,"end":8497.138,"text":"謝謝這是一個新創法揭弊者保護法是一個新創法它不是原來既有條文的條文部分修正就連部分條文的修正以剛剛我說的墮胎刑罰加強請問法務部你們要公告多久是不是先請部長回答一下原來那個部分你們是預定公告多久兩個禮拜要公告兩個禮拜那是行政院通過了"},{"start":8500.99,"end":8502.47,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8529.758,"end":8554.804,"text":"那麼我們既在說揭弊者保護法多少年多少年了那麼我在這裡容我這樣說修正動議這四個字啊在我們立法院委員會是很常見的但是大家記憶猶生的是在今年的五月的時候我們有一些稱為國會擴權的法案它的版本也是很多版本"},{"start":8555.782,"end":8582.015,"text":"到後來呢是在最後一刻院會的時候啊要進行二讀討論之前就一個修正動議的綜合版橫空伸出啊從天而降啊包括提案的兩個黨團多數的委員都不曉得他是怎麼跑出來的只有部分委員說這是經過一個晚上的及時廣益絞盡腦汁就跑出一個修正動議出來"},{"start":8583.68,"end":8583.86,"text":"案（二）委員"},{"start":8602.011,"end":8602.171,"text":"案（二）委員"},{"start":8618.629,"end":8639.3,"text":"案件中﹑一）委員吳宗憲遭毀的版本有17條,你的修正動議有7條,這個體力跟原來7個版本完全不同。從公私並行到公部門為主,或者說公部門加上國營事業,這個不可不為是一個相當大的轉變。"},{"start":8640.481,"end":8644.543,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":8662.697,"end":8663.858,"text":"判決動議判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":8690.663,"end":8716.068,"text":"那麼我還是要提出剛剛召委所提出的兩個附帶決議這個其實就是我們國民法官法當時在推的時候所遇到的情況國民法官法在4年前我相信也是上一屆國會在司法法制委員會甚至各黨團的重中之重包括民間已經討論很久到底是陪審制還是參審制"},{"start":8718.959,"end":8742.238,"text":"這還是一個影響到要有相當法學素養的民眾才能參與的議題但是仍然有許多的公民團體人權團體真的到各黨團去進行遊說進行說明那縱使如此在最後通過的國民法官法的版本當中也留了一個類似這樣子六年後來檢討"},{"start":8744.71,"end":8756.407,"text":"引進一個新的制度像國民法官這個制度現在進行到第三年了我們也看到了這幾年來台灣社會在適用國生法 國民法 國法法案呢"},{"start":8757.483,"end":8762.645,"text":"案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":8778.193,"end":8788.461,"text":"從7個版本全部是公司並行,到現在召委的版本要改成以公為主,擴及到穩贏事業。這個方向我覺得有呼應了這段時間部分團體的討論所揭發出來的一個問題,一個盲點。"},{"start":8794.065,"end":8794.505,"text":"案件,此外,此外,此外。"},{"start":8817.137,"end":8830.753,"text":"我們是有版本的今天這七個版本好歹說這七個委員的版本都是在我們的立法的公報資料上各個團體可以看得到的那麼目前的修正動議是看不到的"},{"start":8831.658,"end":8832.058,"text":"案 〈揭弊者保護法草案〉案"},{"start":8847.722,"end":8870.83,"text":"這個內容是不是根本的改變了原來七個版本公司並行的結構我想不言可喻所以我在這裡也是慎重的呼籲主席既然是一個體力上跟原來七個版本有相當大幅度的一個調整稱之為修正動議太小看了這是一個新的版本"},{"start":8871.95,"end":8896.463,"text":"這個版本避免重套五月份我們國會擴權法案在院會的審查期間倉促提出七零八落後來還遭到憲判整個予以大部分宣告為違憲那麼沒有違憲的條文其實也造成了調適程序上許多需要調整的部分"},{"start":8897.128,"end":8898.43,"text":"法律法律法律法律"},{"start":8913.812,"end":8928.544,"text":"案（一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及"},{"start":8938.251,"end":8955.81,"text":"我們對於任何重大的法案我們都希望召開公聽會有時候不同黨團像昭緯崇善如流有召開公聽會那有的時候呢是我們共同去推動像我們談到的上個本星期談到的稅務事件稅務事件審理法"},{"start":8956.479,"end":8978.857,"text":"那這個稅務稅審法在下週我就已經發出通知了我們要召開公聽會了那我也希望主席秉持這樣的精神我們共同的對這樣全新的版本也來徵詢社會各界的意見以上建議我們一位一位來就是那個剛是楊委員你是跟那個羅委員要換嗎?"},{"start":8981.602,"end":8986.665,"text":"楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案案 》案。"},{"start":9005.595,"end":9034.353,"text":"會不會行政版本?行政版本會不會提出?現在在行政院審理中法務部行政院在審理中行政院在審查中行政院在審查中我們那個法務部的版本行政院在審查還要多久?這個還在審查所以未知嘛未知嘛好那這個案子呢因為社會面向非常的需要我們面對到很多的問題必須要有法去執行之"},{"start":9035.88,"end":9036.401,"text":"判決判決判決判決"},{"start":9058.718,"end":9081.453,"text":"在這一些各個委員本來就應當提出你各自的論點大家來大體討論大體討論我覺得今天主要的重點大家有沒有認為這個法是必須要來討論的這個法是必須要通過的這個法是必須要能夠讓揭弊者得到保護我想這三點的原則大家沒有人會反對"},{"start":9082.489,"end":9083.029,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":9105.276,"end":9106.077,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":9133.559,"end":9157.476,"text":"但我們的確要面對到什麼呢我們的社會面向他的需求他的需求這一點我相信我們大家身為民意代表都必須要去好好的審慎討論之這是以上我的建言所以我非常希望大體討論之後怎麼樣實際的主條來討論這才是我們立法必要的一個流程以上建言"},{"start":9158.646,"end":9176.725,"text":"下一位請莊委員欸那個跟委員是不是說因為時間的關係大家盡量就發一次就好就不要我很快的我很快的我很快的我很快的朝偉謝謝我是覺得啦立法院大家不要吹牛啦齁大家講這個空話沒有意義啦這部法律要怎麼樣弄齁"},{"start":9177.952,"end":9204.352,"text":"我相信大家都心有定見我自己也有我自己的看法但是我還是要再來救教就是說今天沒有辦法進入的一個原因就比如說不管是吳釗偉提的或者說台灣民眾黨所提的第三條所講的弊案如果說到最後你把它定性成說我們所謂的弊案是在講說針對以下"},{"start":9207.734,"end":9215.357,"text":"犯罪行為條例中指涉的公共利益及清潔重大者等以外其他叫法務部去定涉及到刑法跟處罰的部分叫法務部來定這個會不會給他們權限太大這是我從頭到尾我第一個我完全針對這個在講的另外第二個其實談到現在來看的話那"},{"start":9236.58,"end":9257.065,"text":"幾乎現在變成說是雙軌然後公部門先行這個部分大概有共識那既然是有共識的話常常是涉及到的公益事業非常多阿不然很簡單嘛 趙委很簡單嘛那已經大家走到這邊有共識不然在另一邊的公益事業不能說他們在修法的時候沒辦法的人在這裡嘛 也很奇怪"},{"start":9258.191,"end":9258.211,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9282.378,"end":9304.534,"text":"那你既然要涉及到公部門,不然你就召委你再領著,你就衝我比較老的啊,衝我比較大型的啊,再用水甲讓我來啊。這個是我這兩點的看法。第三點的看法是說,我對召委您的版本我也不滿啊。就是說我覺得這個部分像比如說既然是公部門啊,那政務部門、民代"},{"start":9306.024,"end":9330.036,"text":"案件,是不是可以再做考慮?這是好事啊。啊不然我們總是要說我們禮拜年都要製作給別人試的,我們自己就都沒有。啊這也好奇怪,就沒有一個說理啊,沒有一個說理啊。所以如果你條文,一個條文一個條文仔細去看,而不是來這邊要講場面化的,你就可以抓到整個問題的核心嘛。我認為今天就是一個進步啊。但是要先講好啊,科與法務部你要有責任啊。"},{"start":9333.712,"end":9336.233,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。"},{"start":9357.247,"end":9384.24,"text":"第9屆確實就是法案出來是因為社會沒共識這個講得最大聲的就是黃國昌委員你說那是不對嗎那也不是不對只是說社會的衝擊面但是整個條文裡面的一個設計裡面我還是認為我有疑慮的一個地方以上幾點請趙偉來做一個參考當然就是說中委員如果說對於是不是要急於民待什麼那中委員也是可以提"},{"start":9384.98,"end":9390.423,"text":"公益揭弊者保護法草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":9411.576,"end":9412.577,"text":"案 等22人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 等22人擬具"},{"start":9428.874,"end":9445.857,"text":"主席剛剛鍾嘉賓委員非常好心有提醒我們今天如果說我們不放慢今天的修法腳步的話有可能又發生今天大法官把國會改革宣判違憲這個情形但是好心提醒大家了"},{"start":9446.798,"end":9468.383,"text":"案。但是我覺得中委員的好心大可以放心。剛好提這個例子就顯現什麼?反正大法官都已經可以封殺民進黨主張20年的國會改革。然後呢還確保說民進黨主張20年的國會改革是違憲的。還公開的確保了今天官員在這個國會說謊"},{"start":9471.444,"end":9474.868,"text":"法律委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9489.665,"end":9515.488,"text":"我覺得大法官應該也會非常先進的就率全世界民主國家之先來宣布保護揭弊者的權益應該也是違憲的侵犯憲政權利所以剛好我覺得鍾嘉賓委員的好心就顯現出這件事你們可以放心另外我要特別講左七年右七年拖了七年再七年"},{"start":9516.343,"end":9537.167,"text":"今天如果說我們今天的揭弊者保護法是從今天從石頭裡蹦出來的石猴子那你要請如來佛出來叫他說就都媽的一下我覺得還可以說得過去已經蹦了7年啦你的所謂的司法的國事會議當中就這個結論你民進黨執政了這麼多年"},{"start":9541.468,"end":9560.356,"text":"真的嗎?然後另外我也必須說我們的主席吳宗憲主席他是今天是真的是把所有的意見喊納出來所以他提出了他的修正建議修正動議那我覺得基本上我的看法很簡單"},{"start":9561.836,"end":9589.733,"text":"實際上周縣主席跟我討論這修正東西的時候我也講出我的意見我說第一個有兩個東西應該是社會高度共識因為這兩個部門是需要我們一起來努力的監督來去防弊同時保障今天揭弊者的這個所謂的權益就是跟公部門有關因為我們現在因為有大法官做為所謂那個很少千秋的後盾我覺得現在監督政府力量真的越來越薄弱了"},{"start":9590.812,"end":9617.779,"text":"實際上不落到說連人民的力量都要把它抑止的話我覺得這對台灣民主是不利的所以對於兩個跟公家有關的部門公部門本身國營事業這兩個部門我覺得揭弊者應該是個是我們大家的共識就是要受到保護所以保護不只是保護人民的所謂的權利其實也是我們國家重要的防腐機制"},{"start":9618.559,"end":9636.652,"text":"不要因為今天我們的保這個揭弊機制不夠對不對國會已經被斷手斷腳了阿現在人民這邊你是要讓人民也有一個可以來監督來去揭弊然後去促使國家清廉的機制這一點已經講了7年啦這應該是故事"},{"start":9637.692,"end":9665.405,"text":"吳宗憲主席講的是司部門一般民間的部門那是不是在揭弊的部分應該要有所區隔那是不是可以有不同的一些方式來處理我覺得這是一個所謂的先把公約帶提出來的一個好方式不等於說司部門今天就不需要有所謂的揭弊的相關保護但是公部門先行這個概念我是可以接受的所以我也我簽了我們主席的這個修正的動議"},{"start":9666.986,"end":9692.424,"text":"但在這邊我也要必須講主席這個出發點結果我發現我們的民進黨的委員齁就說哎呀你看嘛對不對你看嘛這個思考不周延嘛那現在要修改嘛欸我要跟大家講話不能這樣講吧那如果到這種程度我今天必須說啊我說部長法務部真的這樣子造成我們主席的困擾也不好吧"},{"start":9692.944,"end":9708.499,"text":"案件主席兼代法務部長整合一些意見你今天到現在為七年你行政院沒版本你法務部沒版本你連民進黨今天要提出一個像我們吳宗憲委員這樣的版本也都提不出來"},{"start":9709.7,"end":9727.458,"text":"到現在來好像是把吳宗憲委員的這樣的一個所謂的周圓的思考當作今天延宕今天我們這個所謂的審查的一個理由抱歉這一點我覺得我為吳宗憲主席抱屈了所以最後我要講什麼其實至少在公部門"},{"start":9728.559,"end":9756.137,"text":"在政府機關在國營事業這部分的揭秘者保護我認為已經是非常成熟了已經有高度共識那這一部分既然如此我們就送草也協商針對這一部分我們來細緻化那針對其他私部門部分也還是可以討論但是至少不要再左七年右七年拖了七年再七年這樣下去永遠遙遙無期嘛所以拜託我覺得今天就是努力讓我們法案能夠送出去"},{"start":9757.692,"end":9760.673,"text":"復活社會大眾對於揭弊者保護的期待 以上謝謝"},{"start":9788.853,"end":9788.873,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9815.307,"end":9817.988,"text":"案 〈揭弊者保護法草案〉案"},{"start":9845.401,"end":9845.421,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9876.311,"end":9876.331,"text":"案 。"},{"start":10155.083,"end":10156.384,"text":"我之前這個案件的過程我請教廉政書長有沒有來"},{"start":10183.351,"end":10207.965,"text":"首先我請教你,我們就實務來看這個揭弊者保護有重要嗎?我說郭文哲他這個競合性這個案,是由北檢有機會你們廉政署去辦嗎?有嗎?他去搜查那天應該是八月三十,去搜查你們的人去"},{"start":10213.381,"end":10240.912,"text":"有誰去參加這個活動?搜索嗎?搜索。基本上就是檢察官處隊。林鄭樹的林鄭官。你們靠後的進步應該不是檢察官先退去,是你們先退去。靠後的進步啦。有我們這邊先。你們先來,如果最後再上去北檢。還是你們一集就上去北檢?"},{"start":10243.106,"end":10243.266,"text":"事務局局長"},{"start":10260.407,"end":10289.263,"text":"案案,您提到這個政府是不是要先去做粗暴的分析?對不對?所以粗暴的分析,你不可以去問被告說這個規定是怎樣怎樣?好來,如果這樣後問後你不可以去檢查說我報告,我粗暴的金分起來,這個規定是怎樣怎樣?是不是這樣?這裡都沒有不對啦齁?所以廉政公在處理這個案件"},{"start":10291.998,"end":10317.669,"text":"會否向你或副署長報告?我們這個案件是由北調組來負責,然後基本上是由我們的副署長在其中當這個整個團隊的副署長。副署長。這樣關問題的USB裡面有沒有寫1500?這個部分我們基本上是跟甲官這邊做報告,我這邊並不會去問這個問題。你若檢查公安報告,"},{"start":10320.226,"end":10337.871,"text":"局主那些暈斷就對了,有去給你們報告嗎?那些硬碟?這部分都是我們都會跟甲官這邊做報告的。你有沒有直接跟檢察官報告?所以參與這班的檢察的檢控跟檢診室以外,除了你們這兩個單位以外,還有什麼人會知道?"},{"start":10343.106,"end":10361.508,"text":"經華城的這個案件裡面,如果委員問的是偵查不公開的話,其實參與的部分其實也蠻多法律相關的成員人員會知道。阿還有人?除了你跟檢察官以外,阿還有?過程中接觸到整個卷證的一些,不是只有檢察官跟連證官。"},{"start":10363.82,"end":10364.441,"text":"法律委員楊瓊瓊等22人擬具"},{"start":10382.22,"end":10405.955,"text":"判斷判斷判斷判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断判断"},{"start":10411.687,"end":10440.924,"text":"但是在開記者庭的時候我跟妳說 手記USB 跟行事曆阿伯那些保護人發光室阿伯 所以酒館補這個我的意思是說還停留在檢察官跟妳廉政署啦 我不是說妳廉政署一定有問題啦 我現在在說這個規定這樣下來 辦案 如果今天有這個揭弊者保護法 有監視者的 當然妳下去保 廉政官在分析"},{"start":10443.483,"end":10460.488,"text":"你現在說去搜索的人有什麼,搜索的人他也沒看到這些東西,真正的擔保是因為東西給你解讀出來之後分析出來之後,酒缸在洗臉的時候叫洗到有殼有臭,我們現在在擔心的是說我們的公信是否這樣會受損嘛,第二再來"},{"start":10465.762,"end":10481.355,"text":"人們說這條線路我已經有經營7年了這對包括國會議員包括國防這都很害怕包括國家的公司我們也都很害怕哪有說我們是中華民國的心水還是我們在奉經營的你們裡面自己的檢察官也看不下去我說你們的檢察官裡面也有人看不下去這是好像"},{"start":10496.326,"end":10499.087,"text":"檢聯高層跟媒體一種共生的新生態。」"},{"start":10524.008,"end":10538.638,"text":"案．二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案．二．委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":10550.771,"end":10550.791,"text":"案。"},{"start":10562.63,"end":10576.38,"text":"委員跟您報告其實我們的辦案團隊我們其實就是聽甲官的一個指示下辦案那事實上來講就是說連我本身也不會去接觸到卷證對阿所以我剛才有問你嘛是你或是副書長或是誰你說副書長專案嘛好我不是執政令啦我是說你要對這個規定裡面去哄"},{"start":10587.407,"end":10604.975,"text":"案件,封堵說他要你辦人和案件,不能再像這樣了,不然比如說你去搜索林志廟這個事情,那時候應該不是你,你還在裡面的嘛,那時候你也在裡面嘛,181年那時候嘛,這麼久嘛,結果一般的搜索了,我還沒說欸,新聞委員不好意思啊,"},{"start":10606.459,"end":10612.582,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":10631.089,"end":10636.131,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10661.041,"end":10664.023,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第12期司法及法制委員會第12期司法及法制委員會第12期"},{"start":10691.155,"end":10691.455,"text":"判決判決判決"},{"start":10717.913,"end":10717.933,"text":"案。"},{"start":10736.494,"end":10737.195,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10773.872,"end":10790.821,"text":"謝謝主席首先我要先講一下這個揭弊者保護法那他現在從過去到現在有7年的時間那第一個行政院在這7年時間為什麼都沒有提出版本來原因是什麼"},{"start":10792.421,"end":10792.861,"text":"判決判決判決判決"},{"start":10808.908,"end":10831.877,"text":"因為呢大家已經等了7年了不可能讓你們拖延時間然後又到第8年又到第9年永遠都在等著你的院板所以我的態度是如果在我們要準備審查主條之前院板出不來我們立法委員沒有要等待行政院的必要性因為這是所有全民都在等待的"},{"start":10832.657,"end":10847.242,"text":"那剛才好像是中嘉賓委員吧我看直播的時候有談到就是說你比喻了這個交通檢舉達人造成的社會問題跟缺效者去比較那這點我是完全不能同意的喔因為今天"},{"start":10848.062,"end":10864.995,"text":"案 公部門他們如果發生違規那裡面的吹哨者他沒有辦法檢舉沒有法律保護的情況這跟那些已經自己違規然後被檢舉的交通罰單我覺得這是完全沒有類比的可行性"},{"start":10865.936,"end":10889.561,"text":"那我要特別談到的是我自己是國防外交委員會的委員所以我有非常多的包含是公部門也好私人企業也好發現了很多在國防外交包含是軍品不管是綁標也好或者是做一些違法的事項也好那要提供我們相關的資訊"},{"start":10891.161,"end":10902.939,"text":"可是我們在沒有揭弊者保護法的情形之下他們總是告訴我們這個要遮這個要掩因為呢不然萬一被發現是我們的話那就完蛋了"},{"start":10904.341,"end":10921.719,"text":"所以很多願意把真相講出來來幫忙一起檢討政府改進施政的人因為他沒有揭弊者保護法所以他很多事情不敢講這就是現況我再舉一個例子過去我在台北市擔任議員的時候"},{"start":10924.236,"end":10952.642,"text":"有一次就有公務人員向我們提出說有一個案子我具體不講反正他們就提出一個認為政府做在選舉期間利用公帑行選舉之時的一個案子那那個是確切有其事我也拿到了相關的資料但當我公佈了以後我們的行政院相關部門所做的事情是什麼"},{"start":10953.749,"end":10979.961,"text":"我後來知道行政院部門到處在找到底是誰提供資料這就是沒有揭弊者保護法之後會發生的事情你明知道他們做這件事情是不對的但是呢你講出來以後制止了這件事情發生對公民社會來說是一件好事但我們的國家卻沒有任何的立場跟法源來保護這個人"},{"start":10981.929,"end":11002.127,"text":"所以我們等了7年不能再等下去就像羅志強委員剛剛提到的如果這是一個今天才拋出來的案子我們大可以公聽會啊什麼啊什麼啊大家發言啊都可以講很久可是7年欸這是多少人的光陰多少人的等待"},{"start":11002.828,"end":11028.58,"text":"多少人在這個過程當中他想作為一個吹哨者他可能被發現了他明明是為國為民去發聲行一些讓不公不義的事情被揭露出來結果他的下場是什麼是被我們的行政機關也好或是其他那變成是公審甚至他就沒有官座了降職考基達很差"},{"start":11030.086,"end":11058.751,"text":"所以我認為這個法在公部門這個部分是不能再等了所以我希望知道說所謂的如果今天有院板一起納進來討論我完全不會反對有院板進來討論當然是好事啊可是如果你們遲遲不提出院板每次都在說哎呀我們現在還在核定沒有給我們一個期限那不好意思我們沒有義務要再等行政院"},{"start":11059.531,"end":11062.796,"text":"所以我這邊來建議主席就是說呢剛才因為行政院他們有特別講說他們有在審議版本嘛那是不是可以向主席確認說他們在什麼時間之前要提出願版"},{"start":11075.234,"end":11098.997,"text":"那如果來協商一下那如果超過這個時間我們沒有在做任何等待的必要性那在那此之前我們也可以針對我們的委員的法案進行審查然後等這個行政院的版本送入之後那再一併進入主條但如果你要告訴我說你的合訂是要等到明年的話那不好意思我們也沒有辦法接受以上"},{"start":11100.823,"end":11119.504,"text":"謝謝那個薛委員因為剛剛那個部長來的時候是有跟我們提說就是今天沒有要提啦那因為他們如果提的話他們要送去行政院行政院什麼時候會核定沒有人知道啊行政院今天也沒有人來我們那個法務部的版本目前都已經提到行政院生意了我們知道我們知道已經15版了嘛"},{"start":11120.485,"end":11138.459,"text":"案 已經15個版本,那現在因為這個東西不是部長能夠決定的那我們可能在這邊問部長他也沒有辦法給我們一個答案所以我還是尊重其他每個委員都已經那接下來就是條文審查的那個進度那還有五委員請五委員發言"},{"start":11142.114,"end":11157.968,"text":"案。我個人對於這個法案的立場當然私部門在沒有社會共識之前當然不宜列入我想這個是高度的一個共識那過去7年或是倡議更久要立法的"},{"start":11158.462,"end":11159.343,"text":"犯罪者保護法草案案案 。"},{"start":11179.378,"end":11180.258,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":11199.125,"end":11220.037,"text":"反而我們應當去反思為什麼這麼多年的努力跟倡議還沒有辦法匯聚高度的共識以至於行政部門的版本還沒有辦法很周延的提到國會來我認為站在立法要非常的審慎的角度我覺得這個切入點大家應當思考"},{"start":11220.797,"end":11246.174,"text":"那第二個如果大家初步有共識今天提出來的七個版本當中大家願意先限縮在公部門的版本那就條文論條文我第一個還是希望要有行政院的版本才能夠參採畢竟對象是公部門的話只有公部門更了解公部門的整個執行最起碼也是要有院版可以參採"},{"start":11247.17,"end":11247.37,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":11276.079,"end":11281.043,"text":"案 雖然你在第4條你從你的原始19個條文現在調整為就是有7個條文你限縮在公部門的部分可是你看看你認為你在第4條的秀揭弊的這個對象機關限縮為公部門你認為你只秀第4條就好把4部門拿掉可是錯了你在你原始條文的第3條的弊案範圍裡頭"},{"start":11301.34,"end":11327.914,"text":"法律審查委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。adequate to the first section of Article 3, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7, Article 7,"},{"start":11329.955,"end":11346.508,"text":"案 刊出的線縮在公部門的版本其實都應當還要再審慎回去看包括你第三條的閉案範圍還是把涉及司部門的保留了無緣無緣不要亂帶風向齁我是公部門跟國營事業你在講什麼東西啊好沒關係我在發言你在講什麼東西我在發言嘛那我發言完你在評論好嗎我在跟你理性我沒有在帶風向我是在討論"},{"start":11358.678,"end":11364.08,"text":"條文,我在請教您的這些,你這些第一期,欸這是怎麼討論下去啊,如果在討論條文不能就彼此的重點,如果不能就彼此的重點討論,叫什麼討論,如果不能就彼此的條文討論,這叫什麼討論,所以我只要解釋,我要說的是,您剛剛發下來的,請讓我發言好嗎?"},{"start":11388.598,"end":11392.861,"text":"主席主席請坐下主席這是我的發言時間誰沒有水準吳宗憲的表現就是沒有水準"},{"start":11418.752,"end":11440.276,"text":"我繼續講我的條文您剛剛拋出來的修正動議我是檢視說就條文的本身第三條你原始條文的閉案範圍裡頭應當也要再去檢視會不會還保有跟司部門相關的部分就如此而已誰在帶風向誰在沒水準誰在沒風度"},{"start":11449.749,"end":11475.407,"text":"舊條文論條文整部的剛剛每個委員的版本不管是公司或公司並行其實吹哨者有兩種我們都把他聚焦在我們也傾向去相信都是善意的吹哨者黃國昌委員別人在發言的時候我覺得您的表情控管可能要注意一下"},{"start":11477.628,"end":11492.105,"text":"然後呢我們都把他界定為每一個揭弊者他應當都是善意的他勇敢針對不公不義來予以揭發但是也有一種他可能是基於個人的不滿報復"},{"start":11493.925,"end":11514.838,"text":"所進行可能涉及誣告的行為。」所以針對整全部法律我們固然保護檢舉人甚至在法案當中個別委員的版本都提供了誘因是進一步在保護之外還給予誘因鼓勵大家挺身而出來勇敢揭弊"},{"start":11515.891,"end":11534.516,"text":"但是呢你沒有辦法去排除有一種他可能基於個人在職務工作上的不滿報復造成的檢舉達人檢舉狂人檢舉魔人換到揭弊者他就變成吹哨的某種個人目的的一種"},{"start":11535.896,"end":11562.076,"text":"案件不符合真實的揭弊所以在過去例次的公聽會裡頭也有學者專家法律界提出固然保護檢舉人要嚴懲被檢舉人的報復行為但是對於我們這種惡意檢舉惡意吹哨它本身不是基於事實它也應當有同等的課則"},{"start":11563.817,"end":11583.43,"text":"他必須有同等的課則我舊條文論條文我看了全部的委員的提案我發現徐巧欣委員的版本18條是唯一一個有針對惡意檢舉的人有提出課則的條款我唯一看到這是巧欣委員有的他在第18條裡頭是說如果針對這種"},{"start":11587.732,"end":11614.706,"text":"揭弊者所揭露之內容若為明顯的虛偽不實或意圖栽贓毀謗他人變造證據隱瞞事實者依行為事實與情節將以應當去走誣告偽證罪交由檢調機關調查後依法起訴這是所有的版本裡面唯一一個針對惡意的檢舉者吹哨者擁有的克責的條款我基本上要肯定"},{"start":11616.067,"end":11619.668,"text":"這就是我說的舊條文論條文每一個委員的條文我看到的質疑我可以提出來就是我在提我對吳宗憲委員的條文有質疑我可以提出來這不是什麼帶風向這是理性的討論我同樣在看到第18條徐小新委員他是唯一所有的版本有針對被檢舉者的就是檢舉者的惡意行為有苛責我予以肯定"},{"start":11640.069,"end":11656.011,"text":"但是這樣子的一個課則條款是回到司法去評斷因為公務人員如果整部法四部門的人如果你是惡意你可以請他離開但是公部門的同仁他有我們的職務保障"},{"start":11656.852,"end":11677.104,"text":"案件,只能夠去走司法一條嗎?或者是說本身在公務機關裡面你也可以用你的身屆這些東西的這些行政的處分去懲治、克責這種惡意的吹哨非善意者。所以舊法論法我們要很理性的就保障"},{"start":11678.405,"end":11699.842,"text":"善意的吹哨者跟對於惡意的檢舉人本身他也應當要有相對應的克責的規範但目前的所有條文真的都沒有只有徐曉欣委員有但是只能夠去走對於司法部分的救濟或者是在公部門裡面就要享有這種"},{"start":11701.601,"end":11716.802,"text":"犯罪在公部門可以用的行政工具裡頭。我覺得這同樣要去思考的所以我們希望看問題有一題兩面當我們立了吹哨者保護法保護吹哨者鼓勵大家面對不公不義站出來"},{"start":11717.523,"end":11742.917,"text":"但我們立法要嚴謹我們也要去思考到我們不樂見因為這種提供了檢舉的獎金提供了吹哨的獎金然後去鼓動了一些人他基於他在公務機關他個人的升遷受阻或是他長期跟同事之間有不滿發生有一些不愉快的情事他就去進行了這種黑函文化胡亂的去檢舉爆料"},{"start":11745.638,"end":11761.895,"text":"而且未基於事實,這也是可能會發生的。所以我認為在整個法部保護的一部分跟苛責的一部分要對等武器要對等這彼此是一種check and balance所以這個部分所有的條文"},{"start":11762.574,"end":11765.435,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":11788.513,"end":11788.533,"text":"案。"},{"start":11803.857,"end":11804.238,"text":"案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":11823.94,"end":11844.38,"text":"也請大家不要再就這個事情難免討論當中會有火花可是我的本意就是就條文論條文所以我希望我還是期待既然要限縮在公部門就必須要有公部門對於這個法案的立場跟態度那不要為快而快為休而休那我不知道給予行政部門多長的時間他們會做出更嚴謹的一個法案的對岸"},{"start":11848.176,"end":11873.301,"text":"這個我尊重因為我的態度真的不是為極而極為快而快那如果要在後續探討我希望大家在這個武器均等的這個均衡上保護之外的課則也要均等去思考這是我非常關切的部分不要讓台灣成為一個黑函文化爆料文化而且是不基於事實僅止於報復這種行為這不利於我們良善的社會風氣謝謝"},{"start":11876.345,"end":11903.279,"text":"那個謝謝吳委員吼因為剛剛我以為吳委員是在問我問題啦所以我就我就回應他那吳委員如果剛剛不是在問我問題那不好意思我剛剛不應該插嘴吼那那個給給給我幾秒鐘那吳委員剛剛有提到那個吼我不知道一個淺見的建議啦其實吳委員剛剛提到那個其實回歸到我國刑法的誣告跟誹謗罪其實都有相關規定那如果說對就是說我們這個這個特別法如果沒有或這個專法沒有的話其實都是回歸到刑法"},{"start":11904.992,"end":11911.462,"text":"對對對就是說刑法其實都有相關規定就剛剛我也所提到那我這個僭建公餐而已好那我們下一位請徐委員"},{"start":11913.009,"end":11940.672,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝吳思耀吳委員剛剛有針對我的提案裡面有提到就是說當然我們也知道這個吹哨者保護法是要保護吹哨者但是如果有一些人他利用了這個吹哨者保護法那他去行一些黑函或是不正確的這個資訊那也會使得包含是我們立法委員受到傷害過去也曾經有過這個立法委員接到爆料"},{"start":11941.232,"end":11954.401,"text":"保護法草案 案 報出來之後其實是錯誤的那這對於所謂的揭弊者來說也是很大的傷害所以在但是在因為大家到時候法案是併審嘛在我的第10其實有兩條我的第16條跟第18條裡面都有那我簡單念一下這個條文第16條裡面的是揭弊者依本法所受之保護不應下列情形而喪失就是所揭露之內容無法證實"},{"start":11971.032,"end":11994.246,"text":"案案案件事宜,若你的揭露內容無法證實的話,他還是受到保護,但若明顯虛偽不實,檢舉行為經誣告為證罪判決有罪,並提供閉案相關資深真實資訊,出於獲利或損害他人之不當目的者不在此現。也就是說,如果你是以上我們講的這一類型,就是剛才吳思瑤委員講到的,對不起,"},{"start":11996.667,"end":12008.273,"text":"無私要委員講到的就是說這一些所謂的可能黑函啊然後故意刻意的檢舉傷害對方啊這種是不受揭弊者保護法的保護這是在第16條那在第18條的部分寫得更清楚了"},{"start":12012.355,"end":12019.056,"text":"案。」就是說揭露的內容如果明顯虛偽不實意圖栽贓毀謗變造證據隱瞞部分事實者依其行為事實及情節誣告偽證罪交由檢調機關調查後依法起訴也就是說我們在這個版本裡面當然立法院沒有去介入司法機關的這個權利所以我們還是把這個交到檢察官這邊然後請他們去調查之後看他們是否起訴"},{"start":12041.061,"end":12041.621,"text":"判決判決判決判決"},{"start":12068.535,"end":12074.177,"text":"我們先做一個會議的宣告上個會議會進行到12點半然後休息到一點再繼續開會還有剛哪一位有舉手要發表意見嗎?"},{"start":12100.967,"end":12100.987,"text":"案。"},{"start":12120.211,"end":12148,"text":"對照委員吳仲憲等19人提案。第一條第一項修正為為維護公共利益有效發現防止追究重大不法行為保障公部門及國營事業揭弊者之權益特制定本法。第四條第一項第一款分列第一款第二款為一公部門之政府機關構主管首長或其指定單位人員二國營事業之主管負責人或其指定單位人員。"},{"start":12149.48,"end":12167.038,"text":"案 第二項第一款中第二款或第五款之受理揭弊機關修正為第三款或第六款之受理揭弊機關。第五條第一項第二款修正為二國營事業揭弊者只接受國營事業制派任僱用定做"},{"start":12167.799,"end":12187.738,"text":"委員派遣承攬、特約或其他契約關係而提供勞務或致報酬之相對人及其員工有事實合理相信任職或提供勞務對向之國營事業或其員工。涉有第三條第五款、第七款或第八款之弊案。據明項前條第一項之受理揭弊機關提出檢舉者。"},{"start":12189.502,"end":12201.392,"text":"案 第4項本法所稱國營事業指國營事業管理法第3條所規定的事業。第7條第一項手具序文中法人團體修正為國營事業。"},{"start":12204.605,"end":12231.451,"text":"第六項首句中定為有違反前條修正為推定為有違反前條第二句中法人團體修正為國營事業第七項中法人或團體修正為國營事業第九條第八項中法人或團體修正為國營事業第十條第一項第二款中法人團體者修正為國營事業"},{"start":12234.093,"end":12246.905,"text":"第17條第二項中司部門修正為國營事業第三項中法人團體或僱主修正為國營事業提案人委員吳宗憲翁曉林謝龍介羅志強洪孟楷宣讀完畢"},{"start":12281.86,"end":12282.14,"text":"公益會已經開過"},{"start":12303.334,"end":12305.035,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":12328.165,"end":12342.294,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天在場委員大家都很關心也希望本案能夠周延的去推動那因為針對今天公益揭弊者保護法草案這是用我們召委的提案的版本的條草案文字"},{"start":12343.114,"end":12344.394,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12367.659,"end":12368.199,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":12394.882,"end":12421.454,"text":"國營事業公營事業等問字問題造成偏差。第二個就是這裡面涉及到包含剛剛有提到的其實主席提到包括現有的政人保護法包括委員所關心的避免檢舉達人的過去的副作用這樣的一些情況再次發生因此我們希望能夠有公聽會更完整的來就這些的意見"},{"start":12421.874,"end":12427.696,"text":"案案件收集,大概是這樣的關係,那就是希望我們可以來就自我召開公聽會來進行討論。好,那個那請問一下大家的意見。"},{"start":12437.472,"end":12440.795,"text":"案件已經討論了很多次了而且過去7年來這樣子的案子陸陸續續都有提出我想我們今天不需要因為吳宗憲提出的修正動議還要再召開公聽會這個部分我們待會就可以直接進入到主條來進行討論在那個時候再來好好討論"},{"start":12461.091,"end":12477.04,"text":"而更何況這個吳宗憲委員所提的修正動議也不見得會被大家接受因為我們看到今天七個案子裡面大家都認為揭弊者保護法是應該涵蓋公部門跟私部門的而我個人基本上也支持所以呢不如就直接進入到逐條討論那我不懂的民進黨委員要在舉辦公聽會"},{"start":12481.823,"end":12483.565,"text":"案案的目的是什麼?難道還是想要繼續的去包庇去護航民進黨政府現在裡面內藏的種種弊端嗎?對你們繼續拖下去只會讓民眾認為說你們其實就是不想讓這些弊端這個揭發出來。"},{"start":12500.163,"end":12509.309,"text":"這沒有意義啊所以呢不如就是大家好好的進入竹條去討論那麼不管是待會如果說認為真的要將私部門先暫時排除在外然後只留國營事業公營事業那我們還是可以在這個地方進行妥善的討論沒有必要一直在程序上面然後開了公聽會又開公聽會一次不足兩次不足更何況這7年來已經開了多少次的公聽會"},{"start":12529.261,"end":12553.971,"text":"真的沒有必要再繼續拖延下去如果我們要等行政院的版本等法務部的版本那麼事實上也不可能他們也不會這個在短時間內就能提出來若是真的那麼有決心的話上個會期或這個會期一開始支出就可以提出來了也不用拖那麼久對在這樣的一個前提之下今天這剛提出來的這個動議說在召開公聽會"},{"start":12560.137,"end":12560.818,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12576.214,"end":12589.801,"text":"謝謝召委如果是有心要讓這部法律通過的話就不會講這麼多政治口水啦我剛提到的幾個問題還是沒有辦法解除我的疑慮啦所以呢你像比如說我剛提到的範圍的問題然後提到明代的問題"},{"start":12592.162,"end":12594.724,"text":"案件,其他不解決的話,我一定每一條都必須要去做一個保留。但是我倒提出一個建議,今天討論到這裡的話,各個政黨都無所遁形,拖延也幾乎沒有拖延的那種藉口了。"},{"start":12610.134,"end":12612.255,"text":"公益揭弊者保護法草案案案。"},{"start":12634.604,"end":12635.304,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":12662.901,"end":12664.323,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案 案》案。"},{"start":12683.985,"end":12685.786,"text":"案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12704.855,"end":12705.015,"text":"案案案案案案"},{"start":12730.466,"end":12747.151,"text":"我認為主席是想要逐條但是既然有一個提案就是大家先處理就看有過沒過也不一定會過因為民進黨團立場是召開因為今天才看到的新的修正動議那在則其召開公聽會再繼續在續行審查"},{"start":12749.292,"end":12752.573,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":12773.641,"end":12790.44,"text":"我們都是希望把法修好而不是把法搞爛那如果為了求周延多討論民主就是這樣嘛共識就是在不斷的討論之下匯聚的嘛那動不動就委員說你今天不審就是拖延我覺得這種說法我真的覺得不好"},{"start":12791.221,"end":12807.831,"text":"然後呢我也覺得國民黨的委員應該也都有雄心壯志你們不會說永遠是在野嘛對不對大家我們要訂定一個不論誰執政都能夠穩定職場文化的一個好的制度不管是保護吹哨者"},{"start":12808.231,"end":12834.862,"text":"或者是對於惡意的吹哨者擁有一個克法克責的機制。」所以剛剛溫委員講到說你們民進黨不審就是要包庇你們執政下的弊案我覺得這種講法真的是不對因為這個制度不是只針對民進黨執政的政府未來不管誰執政都要面對這個體制的建立是好是壞所以我只是覺得大家在這個發言上應當都要"},{"start":12835.342,"end":12854.014,"text":"彼此尊重。」那我再次建議這個一個提案反正就循程去處理一下嘛啊如果沒有過就就就您要主條就就當然尊重只是說既然有提案一程序就是該處理好不好謝謝主席好那個就這個提案的部分還有接下來黃委員要表示意見嗎"},{"start":12857.65,"end":12882.305,"text":"謝謝主席其實今天一開始的時候我覺得討論的氣氛當然大家立場都不太一樣但也不至於有什麼劍拔弩張但是我必須要非常持平的講吹哨者保護法制在我國推動的過程當中它不是一個新的法案"},{"start":12883.795,"end":12908.04,"text":"是2016年的時候蔡英文前總統競選的時候重要的政見也正是因為如此2017年召開了全國司法改革會議那個時候的司改國是會議有分小組有非常多的專家學者在針對這個議題進行討論的時候"},{"start":12912.27,"end":12932.912,"text":"在剖析到底是在保護吹哨者還是有所謂的廖伯亞有惡意檢舉的這種惡意檢舉的到底要怎麼處理相關的議題有非常多的討論相關的文獻也非常非常的多"},{"start":12936.981,"end":12954.877,"text":"所以我只是要帶大家回顧一下揭造者保護法的法制在討論的過程當中不斷的在整個台灣社會裡面大家反覆的辯證行政院"},{"start":12956.414,"end":12984.397,"text":"有沒有預告過法案有啊行政院也有預告過法案當初2019年的時候進到委員會審的就是我們行政院經過完整的立法成完整的法案程序法務部提出來提到行政院法務部公告法務部那時候也有預告啊所有的法案作業程序都一樣啦法務部提出來預告到行政院行政院提出了法案送到立法院"},{"start":12985.711,"end":13008.709,"text":"那那個時候我們所在審查的就是行政院的版本嘛那那個也是我們司改國是會議的結論啊也是我們在聯合反貪腐公約下面所負的國家義務啊這些事情其實一路走來在歷史上每一個足跡啊留的都非常非常清楚啊"},{"start":13009.622,"end":13034.177,"text":"我剛提到說我們的反貪腐公約國家報告在進行審查的時候我們花了那麼多錢找國際的學者來給我們的反貪腐公約國家報告進行指教我相信國際的學者對我們沒有辦法完成吹哨者保護法的立法所表達的強烈意見強烈意見"},{"start":13039.707,"end":13067.03,"text":"法務部的官員我相信部長前聯政署的署長所有在法務部內很辛苦持續推動這個法案的同仁大家都聽到現在也白紙黑字的在我們聯合國反貪腐公約的國際審查報告裡面都已經呈現出來了新聞媒體"},{"start":13068.925,"end":13090.781,"text":"也都披露過了那今天我們在討論總共有七個版本這七個版本也不是今天提出來或是上個禮拜提出來其實上個會期就提出來上個會期中線委員針對這件事情我也很感謝他召開了巡達我們也召開了公聽會"},{"start":13098.189,"end":13118.607,"text":"公聽會有很多企業界的代表或者企業界的代表他們所聘請的訴訟代理人的代表他們的聲音我們大家都聽到了那也正是因為這個樣子我們才會走到今天好不容易能夠開始來進行所謂的豬條審查"},{"start":13126.039,"end":13154.252,"text":"那剛剛莊惠雄委員特別提到就是說因為剛剛莊委員您的發言你說其實大家的想法是什麼其實今天都現行出來了我其實有時候聽莊委員講話我就覺得非常有道理所以剛剛您在講的時候我一直點頭稱是因為其實大家在這個法案上面各自在想的想法考慮的因素是什麼沒有正面負面"},{"start":13155.256,"end":13166.808,"text":"大家的考慮是什麼?比如陳俊宇委員提到你很關心中小企業我可以理解我不會因為說你關心中小企業就可以冠上你說你要一個保護財團這樣的大帽子"},{"start":13169.349,"end":13197.172,"text":"沒有我今天一開始在進行整個發言討論的時候我都說了就是大家有不同的立場看法都OK但我覺得這個不能再繼續拖延下去不能再繼續延宕下去七年的時間真的夠久了那也是因為這樣子我從今天早上一開始就講有想法的委員那就請你把你的立場"},{"start":13199.087,"end":13213.507,"text":"保護法草案 提出來。要不然我根本沒有討論的課題跟標的啊。現在在檯面上面在吳宗憲召委提出他的修正動議以前7個版本的標的全部都是公司部門合併的吹哨者保護法"},{"start":13214.961,"end":13243.132,"text":"我剛提到莊委員提到第三條的部分我簡單的說明一下就好了我要跟莊委員說的是第三條的部分現在目前絕大多數的版本所採取的立法體力跟2019年行政院的版本已經不一樣了因為2019年行政院的版本他是用副表列舉的方式他用副表列舉的方式有一個嚴重的缺點就是會掛一漏萬"},{"start":13244.415,"end":13266.687,"text":"就是會掛一落萬所以那個時候在2019年委員會我們進行非常漫長的討論的時候法務部的代表是次長陳明堂他那個時候就代表法務部行政院的版本說沒有錯我們當初對於用副表列舉的方式會掛一落萬我們的考慮是對的"},{"start":13268.618,"end":13290.49,"text":"所以即使是法務部當初的代表那時候陳明堂次長然後我們現在已經高升為部長的鄭明謙那時候是署長人都在現場我們那個時候大家討論的共識是什麼就是採取所謂的大塊原則嘛所謂大塊原則就是針對一些特定類型的犯罪來予以列舉"},{"start":13294.239,"end":13294.259,"text":"案。"},{"start":13305.031,"end":13333.745,"text":"第三條的部分。至於莊委員對於說你覺得後面有個概括條款覺得在授權給法務部去訂這些東西你有疑慮那我覺得很好等他討論到第三條的時候你主張要把那個授權給法務部的把它刪除我覺得這也是一個很好的意見那只不過說我跟莊委員稍微說明一下為什麼會最後有一個那個授權的條款那個是當年"},{"start":13334.545,"end":13351.177,"text":"那個是當年法務部的代表在司法法制委員會審查的時候不斷地強調希望說我們的立法者能夠保留這樣子一個條款讓他們的法務部未來可以用公告的方式把它補充進去"},{"start":13351.917,"end":13379.316,"text":"等於是說專委委員今天的疑慮是當年法務部的要求那那個時候我們大家也都崇善如流怕那個時候即使是用大塊原則可能還是有該處理沒有處理到的地方我們也都很尊重法務部的意見把那樣子的一個授權的條款給留下來但沒有關係如果今天討論多數委員的意見是給法務部這樣子的授權實在是不好"},{"start":13380.177,"end":13382.419,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":13405.673,"end":13423.633,"text":"請問還有人要有意見對動議的部分那剛剛應該大家都有拿到這個影印板那請問一下就那個未完備程序我們請議事人員先宣讀動議的內容然後宣讀完畢之後就處理"},{"start":13425.418,"end":13451.36,"text":"針對公益揭弊者保護法草案在本委員會之審查應有大幅度修正意見有必要就其內容召開公聽會原請委員會決議如下本案延期討論令則其召開公聽會再續行審查提議人委員中嘉賓審發會陳俊宇張瑞雄吳思瑤宣讀完畢主席那個公聽會最後要少一個會字漏字了花錢補上去加一下"},{"start":13453.599,"end":13478.624,"text":"那請問一下各位委員對於中委員所提的動議請問在場委員有異議有異議那有異議的話那我們就進行表決用舉手表決的方式那表決前請先清點在場人數10人好那現在請贊成中委員所提的動議者請舉手"},{"start":13483.008,"end":13483.39,"text":"反對者請舉手"},{"start":13498.311,"end":13519.402,"text":"案。總共出席委員是10位。贊成5位,反對5位。贊成反對者同訴。依照規定,可否同訴時,取決於主席。主席現在...你不同意開公聽會?不是不同意,不要亂講。"},{"start":13526.369,"end":13548.402,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司"},{"start":13552.862,"end":13580.447,"text":"那我們現在就先進行到主條那一樣剛剛會議的宣告已經有提到那個休息時間那我們現在先進到主條那請問一下就法案名稱的部分法案名稱的部分請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":13587.837,"end":13597.832,"text":"合意見喔這樣好了那還是說你們是希望說親愛的先休息嗎好黃委員怎麼樣"},{"start":13598.93,"end":13624.782,"text":"我們最喜歡把法案名稱先處理完現在只有兩種名稱嘛一個叫揭弊者保護法一個叫做公益揭弊者保護法我們就幾分鐘吧對 大家把法案名稱先處理完吧OK 我覺得這樣更好還是大家有提議邱彥東有第三種法律名稱嗎沒有沒有好 那這樣齁 請問有意見就是就名稱 法規名稱而已大家有沒有意見"},{"start":13630.441,"end":13658.724,"text":"就是揭弊者保護法嗎?是不是?我建議啦我個人先說明一下一般通常是說揭弊者保護法但為了要去彰顯他是為了公益的目的做的所以後來大部分的版本都用公益揭弊者保護法那個時候"},{"start":13660.714,"end":13682.429,"text":"不只啦連林月琴委員連林月琴委員等17人提案民進黨委員自己的提案都是公益揭弊者保護法嘛當初我們當年在提的時候加公益那個部分法務部也是競表贊成的嘛是不是先請那個部長"},{"start":13683.86,"end":13703.932,"text":"我們尊重一下部長的意見法務部認為揭弊者保護法好還是公益揭弊者保護法好聽聽部長的意見嘛政府長就這部分有什麼意見我們是尊重委員的一個決定那這部分我們沒有但是因為我們都是寫揭弊者保護法"},{"start":13707.674,"end":13708.055,"text":"保護法草案。"},{"start":13729.032,"end":13740.947,"text":"講清楚一點大家沒有那麼模糊不清如果說加公益因為本席也簽了我們朝委的修正動議所以朝委的修正動議是公益揭弊者保護法"},{"start":13741.533,"end":13768.299,"text":"我也覺得是可以因為最主要是在第一條我們就是維護公眾利益公共利益所以如果是以公共利益簡稱公益公益揭弊者保護法但是這個公益指的是維護公共利益本席是可以同意的但我覺得說行政部門不能這樣子模擬兩可吧如果說行政部門要這樣模擬兩可那這樣我們真的每一條都沒完沒了囉以上謝謝"},{"start":13770.966,"end":13795.784,"text":"黃委員你剛有舉手嗎?那既然就尊重委員會決定我提議啦就公益揭弊者保護法那看其他委員有沒有其他的告見那請問那個各位委員有沒有不同的想法就是我們名稱用公益揭弊者保護法再想想保留再想想名稱要保留再想想"},{"start":13797.455,"end":13820.065,"text":"因為我也是要看政院最後的版本是怎樣所以保留好嗎?法規的法條名稱的部分就先保留那這樣我們就先休息讓大家休息一下然後我們一點的時候繼續就休息不夠嗎?所以你們要12點50分嗎?的意思嗎?一點啦趕快審啦"},{"start":13828.85,"end":13828.87,"text":"案 。"},{"start":13870.796,"end":13894.253,"text":"很慎重就不會想說要因為我們剛有宣告說到1點啦那是我們就到1點就回來麻煩你們有事情我們也不是說強迫你一定要來阿這樣你每次都會去翻轉別人的講法"},{"start":16204.497,"end":16205.62,"text":"現在開始開會繼續進行逐條討論第一條請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":16216.281,"end":16244.897,"text":"那個各個版本我大概看了一下第一條有幾個版本大家共識其實是蠻高的所以我是不是建議就按照最有共識的版本通過這樣子最有共識的版本是哪一個最有共識的版本是哪一個那個沒有關係竟然有委員提出垂詢了那就請委員翻開我們的條文對照表"},{"start":16251.414,"end":16276.895,"text":"目前我今天早上發言的時候我說過了大概包括民主進步黨林月琴委員等17人的提案跟廖偉翔等18人的提案基本上文字的內容是完全都一樣的完全都一樣那這個條文文字會完全都一樣也不是出於巧合因為我們上一次"},{"start":16278.116,"end":16304.327,"text":"在第9屆的時候在我們的法務部的次長陳明堂以及當初當廉政署的署長鄭明謙充分參與討論的時候過了條文大概就是這個樣子那所以我建議我們第一條的條文是不是就按照林月琴委員等17人提案跟廖偉翔等人等18人提案的文字通過以上因為你的修正都已經保留了"},{"start":16304.994,"end":16307.019,"text":"案 請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":16316.187,"end":16339.761,"text":"第二條我說明一下我們還是希望說在裡面設揭弊者保護委員會因為揭弊者保護委員會裡面就裡面相關的委員有專業素養的人那也都是由主管機關來聘的嘛他會執行揭弊者保護委員會我們在後面的條文所承擔的各項的功能"},{"start":16340.501,"end":16361.367,"text":"那我覺得在這個法上錄的時候不是只有單純的不是只有單純的說針對揭弊者他身份上面的保護然後不可以有不當的處置行為包括揭弊者相關政策的倡議他的保護的事項政策的執行那由這個在法務部下面所設的專業委員會"},{"start":16363.568,"end":16377.183,"text":"來加以推動。」這個是臺灣民眾黨第二條之所以設揭弊者保護委員會我們認為一個最重要的功能跟各位委員說明也請各位委員可以支持"},{"start":16382.689,"end":16408.786,"text":"第二條其實多數委員就是直接設由法務部那有爭議的話有主管機關我們比較傾向多數委員的意見多數版本的意見所以本條大家有意見嗎那是不是先保留好不好第二條的部分我們也予以保留那接下來審查第三條請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":16413.752,"end":16436.336,"text":"第三條的部分因為其實大部分的委員所提案的大概都是按照上一次在委員會處理法務部所提出來的所謂大塊的原則所以大概都是以刑法特定的罪章或貪污自罪條例來當作一個處罰上面的標的那我是不是建議就按照台灣民眾黨黨團的提案通過那請問中高委"},{"start":16441.483,"end":16463.205,"text":"其實我們看到這個條文其實明列出各種法條很重要所以以這個召委的版本第三條你列出了其實民眾黨版本是列出了13款那您的條文當中列了雖然是列了8項但是你其中的第7項又列了"},{"start":16464.497,"end":16485.435,"text":"實務 實務 實務 實務"},{"start":16491.249,"end":16491.269,"text":"案 。"},{"start":16510.868,"end":16533.616,"text":"藉由《揭弊者保護法》來做一些內部防腐的動作但是有關於法官倫理規範的部分它是一個比較空泛的包括道德性的跟植物以外行為的一些法官的品性在外言行的形象的一些維持那這部分跟公務可能跟公務跟公益上並沒有直接的必然關係因為我們版本是提違反法官法的規定"},{"start":16540.879,"end":16563.728,"text":"那個不是倫理啊所以你現在在講的是哪一個版本啊法官法第30條的部分是違反法官倫理規範情節重大者這是部分委員的條文另外有各案評鑑的部分是啊所以他針對的法律效果是附著在法官法上面要一復各案評鑑啊比如說我講最具體的例子"},{"start":16565.409,"end":16588.506,"text":"現在接受關說我們關說司法現在沒有罪啊我之前問法務部問了半天現在關說司法沒有罪啊那你最後能夠處理的連結唯一有法的效果的就是透過法官法送個案評鑑最強最強最強也不過是如此啊那如果今天有人發現"},{"start":16590.382,"end":16615.696,"text":"立法委員有人跑去關說司法進行吹哨的動作然後他不受保護欸這個實際的例子一發生啊今天坐在這邊你講這個話要負責欸那或者是有人發現說有某個地院的法官竟然超越了那個分際強要求年輕的女法官陪他去山上夜遊"},{"start":16618.633,"end":16622.982,"text":"結果他揭發了這種錯不可聞的事然後沒有受到這個保護"},{"start":16625.7,"end":16649.753,"text":"司法院的代表你覺得這樣對嗎這部分我跟委員說明一下我們並不是反對所有的個案評鑑的所有的款項都不列入弊案的範圍之內因為個案評鑑部分包括他其中我們現在個案評鑑部分有包括一般的指揮行為跟例如說辦案遲言或辦案違背程序這個部分他也會列入個案評鑑"},{"start":16650.794,"end":16652.956,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":16666.849,"end":16688.286,"text":"所謂的個人的品性或在外的形象或者是辦案期間的愉悅這些是不是適合把他當成一個弊案來處理正是說他進行個案評決的時候他就是一個當然一個弊案那這部分我們可以建議請委員再思考一下是不是要做適當的限縮或是更具體的就像委員這邊講的他有關說這部分我們當然這個由內部來揭弊我們非常的贊同"},{"start":16693.03,"end":16708.489,"text":"不好意思我再插一下話他所連結的就是在法官法要移送個案評鑑的事由我必須要老實講把法官移送個案評鑑這件事情之本身會構成要移個案評鑑已經夠嚴重的了"},{"start":16711.766,"end":16738.545,"text":"已經夠嚴重了啦那你如果認為說法官被疑個案評鑑你認為還不夠嚴重還要再限縮那就請司法院的代表具體的講你們現在針對有關於違反法官法30條第二項或89條第4項之應付個案評鑑行為你們認為還要做如何的限縮請司法院的代表具體的提出文字的修正意見"},{"start":16739.178,"end":16765.805,"text":"那我跟委員報告一下我們目前有曾經統計過目前的個案評鑑主要都是案件遲延違反辦案程序跟開庭態度不佳至於說其他的說包括性騷擾或者是剛剛委員所提到相關案例這個部分畢竟是少數所以人把這個很具體化這些個案的很不當非常不當我們也不認同的行為當成個弊案來處理內部的揭弊者"},{"start":16766.745,"end":16789.67,"text":"來做一些揭發的動作我們非常的贊同只是說要相當的具體要把一個層次上要有點區別一下所以嘛我說奇怪我剛剛不是講中文應該理解沒那麼困難嗎法官法30條第二項應付個案評鑑事由你們如果覺得範圍太廣那具體你覺得要如何限縮那挺齊出你的建議"},{"start":16790.49,"end":16806.232,"text":"我們基本上從委員版本裡面像徐小新委員的版本或是洪孟楷委員的版本這個部分就是說他也認為說造成司法公正造成具體危害的行為這個部分我們覺得這個版本可以概括的來適用以上"},{"start":16808.556,"end":16830.032,"text":"就這個部分我贊成司法院所提出來的意見就按照洪孟楷委員的那個版本按照那個版本針對有關於法官法他要一復個案平線的自由再進一步的語現說這個我尊重我尊重司法因為你們這樣子來參加法案的討論有具體的條文"},{"start":16833.787,"end":16858.722,"text":"這個才是一個負責任的看法比如說這麼多的版本裡面你覺得有一個法官法30條第二項你覺得太broad希望先說用洪孟楷委員的版本就這樣具體的講這樣我們才有助於整個法案的聚焦要不然我們審法案的時候不要讓大家覺得我們好像在傾談這樣子不好謝謝就第三條部分"},{"start":16860.339,"end":16887.172,"text":"主席因為本席很關注您的修正動議的第四條但是我這邊要提出那既然有修正動議在場其實這個第四條跟第三條會有連動因為主席報告在討論您的版本可以就是麻煩主席您稍微留意一下因為您待會我們可能會進入到第四條的時候會處理到您把這個揭弊者限縮在國營事業的人員跟政府部門人員"},{"start":16888.012,"end":16906.769,"text":"案 但是呢因為會這樣限縮主要是考量到我們揭弊的目的是針對政府部門或涉及公共利益極大的國營事業但是你前面的這些行為的法條我舉例來講以你的版本的第三條的第七項"},{"start":16908.05,"end":16915.654,"text":"法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":16931.943,"end":16933.944,"text":"案 等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 等21人擬具"},{"start":16945.674,"end":16945.694,"text":"案 。"},{"start":16967.348,"end":16990.865,"text":"內容是他們國營事業宿舍隔壁鄰居在倒灰污水這個就跟我們原來在第四條限縮他這些人員的範圍就有所不同所以我是覺得呢第三條可能要並同第四條一併考量所以我是覺得再評估一下再評估一下第三條好那個剛那個什麼工程會那有意見是不是好你說明一下"},{"start":16996.759,"end":17019.785,"text":"主席各位委員還有與會先進公共工程委員會代表緊究這個第三條的這個部分提供工程會的一些看法因為這些條文委員的版本裡面都有提到政府採購法那工程會認為這個揭弊者保護法主要是為反貪腐的一個重要的機制那我們會建議這個揭弊者的這個弊端的是"},{"start":17020.145,"end":17022.105,"text":"案案件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件件"},{"start":17049.412,"end":17049.592,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":17072.213,"end":17073.394,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":17089.651,"end":17093.133,"text":"案（二）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案）一）委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具《公益揭弊者保護法草案》案。"},{"start":17116.176,"end":17140.407,"text":"法務委員我請教一下那個工程會的代表我完全了解你在說什麼但我要換另外一個角度請你思考一下就是說政府採購法裡面最重要的立法目的是維持政府採購程序的公正連結但目前在政府採購法裡面會沉醉的"},{"start":17141.067,"end":17154.191,"text":"案件中）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":17163.234,"end":17187.964,"text":"刊登政府採購公報的行為可能有很多你剛擔心的事情就會排除在外那為什麼我會認為說要有限於比如說刊登政府採刊登政府就是刊登政府公報事實上也就是我們一般所在講停權的行為是因為包括我自己所接到吹哨或檢舉的案子"},{"start":17189.275,"end":17189.295,"text":"案 。"},{"start":17208.747,"end":17228.317,"text":"結果在發現說那個廠商所提供的防彈背心明明是錄製的中國那邊製造的來坑殺沒保護到我們這邊阿兵哥他們生命上面的安全"},{"start":17230.07,"end":17257.062,"text":"這個很嚴重的事但他不會去犯政府採購法的罪但他絕對會構成什麼他絕對會構成平權的事由那當國防部裡面有人冒著風險願意揭發這件事這個明明就入製的明明就中國製的結果裡面的人他左看右看怎麼大家都在包庇"},{"start":17258.377,"end":17282.114,"text":"因為跟廠商之間的往來很熱絡所以大家都裝作沒看見然後他出來揭弊結果國防部發現說啊你這個廖伯啊破壞我們軍中的和諧啊絕對要給你好看因為我實際上面啊"},{"start":17284.741,"end":17299.717,"text":"我上一屆立委啊就有一個國防部的弟兄啊他真的這樣被整欸跑來找我投訴啊我後來為了這個事情我跑去國防部好幾次啊"},{"start":17302.84,"end":17318.492,"text":"這很重要但它不會構成你說講的就違反政府採購法的罪所以如果把它規範限縮在刊登政府採購公報是所謂我們停權的事項的話那這樣工程會認為還會有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":17322.195,"end":17344.209,"text":"可以回應嗎 是感謝委員的這個指正那這邊我也提出看法就是說委員剛剛有提到的這個問題如果說是公務人員有這個貪污土利的話其實會被其他的條文吸收就是我們在目前的這個揭弊法裡面的其他條文會被其他的條文吸收所以我們會覺得"},{"start":17345.009,"end":17368.417,"text":"案件,如果涉及到公務人員的這些違法的這些部分在其他條文其實已經可以規範到那我們是建議在採購法的部分是做一些限縮以上那個貪污自罪條例的犯罪太陽你要再去看一下我們目前貪污自罪條例的犯罪太陽跟我剛剛所描述的那個狀況在行為太陽上面是沒有辦法構成要件完全合制的"},{"start":17368.917,"end":17380.951,"text":"但我還是要進一步去問我如果只限說在有攤登政府採購公報的行為對你們來講還會有自然難行嗎是這邊我們在進一步的研究感謝委員的指正"},{"start":17382.25,"end":17382.71,"text":"案件 。"},{"start":17401.818,"end":17427.02,"text":"我簡單說一下因為剛剛有提到我的版本的部分第三條沒有錯在於是我們把它列出來說有可能有什麼樣的情況是需要吹哨者來去做一個揭發的一個部分那過去到現在其實很多人也講不管是疫苗的採購快篩的採購雞蛋的採購有沒有有可能的一個弊案的部分那我們吹哨者保護法不就是應該要針對因為我們現在是"},{"start":17429.562,"end":17454.649,"text":"在剛剛主席的修正動議裡面有提到是說就是公部門跟國營事業那其實公部門有很大的一個狀況就是在於是政府採購法你要發包你要做相關的一些採購的部分那這一些資訊很多時候即便是我們是立法委員我們來跟新政部門所知也沒有辦法完全了解說它真實的一個情況"},{"start":17455.789,"end":17476.922,"text":"工程會你雖然說是政府採購的商會機關但是你們也沒有辦法去了解說各部會的採購一個狀況所以我們才會希望是說在這個裡面放進來是針對這樣的一個太陽有可能會變成是說可以讓吹哨者保護法的一個範圍裡面所以既然如此的話我不知道說"},{"start":17478.51,"end":17504.333,"text":"工程會這樣表示意見是要把它全部拿掉嗎還是你有什麼樣的一個條文的一個修正或是文字的一個比較精簡是不是也要給我們建議否則就如同我們剛剛一開始大體討論為什麼討論30小時一樣嗎因為你沒有版本所以你現在針對我們的條文的部分那你覺得有意見你覺得有自在難行的地方可是你又說不出哪裡有可以怎麼樣調整那這樣子我們沒有辦法有進展啊"},{"start":17505.444,"end":17524.321,"text":"所以我是不是也拜託昭偉是不是能夠裁示如果說我們各部會我也很尊重因為就法論法我們要定一個法令是可以實用的那是不是各部會如果說有相關的意見的時候你條要怎麼修但是要保留立法精神我們的立法精神就是我們希望防範於未來"},{"start":17525.58,"end":17552.793,"text":"公部門如果未來有政府採購的時候我相信百分之九十的公務人員百分之九十五的公務人員都是依法行政但是少數的害群之馬危害國家利益危害公眾利益的時候就要有吹哨者出來來去做揭弊以上謝謝好謝謝那還就是說那這樣那他們這樣就是說提出說希望保留好不好"},{"start":17554.133,"end":17554.514,"text":"判決判決判決"},{"start":17568.325,"end":17585.281,"text":"案件,為什麽呢?因為這個版本跟其他七個版本的最大差別他是純粹是政府公部門,頂多加上國營事業其他的都是公私併進那公私併進的架構要把它改成修正動議的這一個以公部門為主的版本"},{"start":17586.178,"end":17600.343,"text":"就不是修正動議那幾個條文的問題而已我們來看一下第三條現在如果公司併進第三條講的是什麼叫閉案第四條講的什麼叫做受理機關第五條什麼叫做揭弊者"},{"start":17601.403,"end":17623.9,"text":"案．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第"},{"start":17629.158,"end":17653.212,"text":"案件,但若是在公司併進的時候,那麼我舉例來講,如果他是做什麼?以打著動產租賃業,當然我不要說是典當業,就是很多動產租賃啦,借錢的啦,他們事實上就是一個犯罪集團。那這個時候他因為假用這個動產租賃的方式,或者典當的方式,他從事犯罪行為,那如果是裡面的小弟要揭弊,"},{"start":17654.929,"end":17671.097,"text":"案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案件,其中一人"},{"start":17679.157,"end":17703.894,"text":"案。當然我們有國營事業,金融控股有沒有國營事業想想看,就是有但是呢多數的是民間的金控公司那這樣的一個規範的犯罪主體呢如果把公司並進納進來你這個金控公司內部有人要揭弊那你是以金控的範圍的犯罪行為內部來揭弊三條四條五條就扣在一起了但是你把私部門拿走了"},{"start":17704.861,"end":17732.282,"text":"那糟糕了那我們現在就是要辦誰?所以我的意思是說我當然沒有反對我們的林委員就是說我們如果說真的要公私併進改成以公為主的話那就不是看到現在的修正動議的版本修第四條第五條反過來連第三條的這些所說的弊案的這些紫色的範圍可能都要做一個審視我剛剛只是說在這麼短的時間內"},{"start":17733.677,"end":17736.758,"text":"法條前後銜接的問題,所以我們才會說要招一個公聽會,也讓相關的部門來提出他們的意見,就是這樣而已。那如果說林委員說保留我們也同意啊。好,那就請黃委員。"},{"start":17753.064,"end":17778.769,"text":"其實我剛剛對於那個鍾嘉賓委員的發言非常的佩服因為鍾委員剛剛整個論述的過程所舉的例子就充分的凸顯出來為什麼我到現在我還是認為公司部門都要納入規範我對召委沒不敬的意思啦召委的苦心我都肯定但肯定歸肯定彼此有不同的立場大家相互尊重"},{"start":17779.329,"end":17806.501,"text":"所以在我的心裡可能跟中委員不一樣中委員認為是以昭緯的版本為主要你所關心的對象但我現在在看的恐怕就不是只有昭緯的版本我現在在看的整個腦袋的架構還是跟當初我們在2019年司法法制委員會一樣是在這個會議室從早上一路搞到下午出委員會那天我是全程在場"},{"start":17807.722,"end":17835.501,"text":"全身在場每一個條文我全部都有參與我的想法跟當年還是一模一樣所以剛中國委員所講的那個例子就就很棒啊監控如果是關鼓過半吹哨者受保護那如果是那種私人的監控特別有不肖的事情那甚至都已經被判刑判到八年九年了"},{"start":17837.842,"end":17861.788,"text":"代表人家當初吹哨者吹哨是真的吧對啊都已經被判8年9年啊現在只剩下最高法院駁回上訴就確定啊那你我們到時候要面對很多人啊其他監控的人跑來問立法委員啊說那你們現在是大小眼喔政府控制的監控吹哨者受保護"},{"start":17863.331,"end":17890.373,"text":"非政府控制的監控追掃者不受保護請大委員們幫我說明一下差別對待的理由到底在哪裡每一個委員他在劃主體範圍跟客體範圍的時候一定都會面臨到這樣的問題我再強調一次針對這個法律我有我的信念"},{"start":17892.523,"end":17921.162,"text":"也有希望貫徹的價值但我不會說那個信念跟價值是絕對唯一至高無上別人的考慮都不會我不會這樣講但我在這個立法的過程當中我會把它說清楚那最後我還是會按照我們國會裡面民主審議的原則按照多數的意見有一個最後的共識所以我還是建議就是說在主體客體的部分"},{"start":17922.003,"end":17948.998,"text":"我們還是就是個別來處理就是個別來加以處理因為違反特定法律的客觀範圍的部分違反的主體他可能有三種人一個是什麼一個是政府一個是國營事業一個是非國營事業的私部門剛剛所講的客體範圍的那些法律我認真的講事實上"},{"start":17950.922,"end":17952.323,"text":"兼具兼具兼具兼具兼具"},{"start":17969.793,"end":17990.42,"text":"案件,如果是公部門的受保護,如果是私部門的不受保護,到時候我們有很多解釋要做。所以就這個部分我想第三條的部分剛剛中委員有表達他的看法我也尊重,那既然這樣我們第三條是不是就先保留。"},{"start":17992.284,"end":18019.182,"text":"那第三條我們就保留那謝謝黃委員因為我的立場也是這樣啦就我只是希望很務實的面對現在社會的需要因為我們有時候定法律喔定一個太高標的理想就用到社會反而是很卡因為我實務我是我等於是適用法律出身的嘛那我不是立法者出身我會覺得一個法律的真正有它的價值是在這個社會能夠順利使用所以我後來才會做一些修正"},{"start":18021.07,"end":18025.113,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。"},{"start":18046.766,"end":18048.407,"text":"我只是說以我的立場跟過去的生活經驗我覺得需要有一點修正其實你們也不完全反對我的修正啊"},{"start":18067.23,"end":18088.963,"text":"我們還希望說能夠順利第三條予以保留我們現在審第四條請問一下對第四條的部分各位委員有無意見這是很明顯就兩種軌道一個是公司併進一個是公部門為主所以這個第四條就明顯的落落剛剛黃總召所說的這個部分"},{"start":18093.342,"end":18110.817,"text":"因為我齁這樣講好了啦齁其實也沒那麼複雜啦真正會涉及到的也只有第四條第一項的第一款啦第四條第一項的第二款檢察機關司法機關目的事業主管機關監察院政風機構全部都是"},{"start":18112.133,"end":18128.658,"text":"公部門受檢舉的機構,但只是說公部門受檢舉的機構這一件事情公部門受檢舉機構這件事情他沒有限定檢舉人是誰他沒有限定檢舉人是誰這個觀念上面要把它釐清是非常重要的事情"},{"start":18129.369,"end":18148.235,"text":"那唯一擔心的事情是什麼?唯一擔心的事情就是第四條第一項的第一款嘛說那如果是包括私部門的公益揭弊的話我們要不要讓那個僱主有機會讓他成為受理的機關就我先給僱主第一線的機會"},{"start":18149.955,"end":18176.976,"text":"我先給僱主第一線的機會大家冷靜想一想喔對僱主不是壞事欸因為這個層級化規範的方式第一層第二層當初在設計的時候我們就有已經預想到說不要讓人家去亂爆料亂搞你要先按照一定的程序按照一定的程序走完了以後沒有獲得妥適的處理你才能跑到第二線"},{"start":18178.197,"end":18198.176,"text":"你才能跑到第二線所以如果企業主冷靜想一想如果企業主冷靜想一想是說把私閉門拉進來好像給他負擔但你要從另外一個角度去思考是我給你機會所謂給你機會是說欸我要求這個人喔你要先跟你老闆講一下"},{"start":18199.724,"end":18204.81,"text":"判斷判斷判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判判"},{"start":18218.154,"end":18230.344,"text":"有的時候跟他們一些正確的觀念的宣導我給你這個機會你要不要啊你如果真的不要到時候大家的決議是司部門要把它劃出來的話那我老實跟大家講"},{"start":18231.434,"end":18247.312,"text":"你覺得回到今天的狀態今天的狀態是什麼今天的狀態是沒有揭弊者保護法今天的狀態沒有揭弊者保護法我今天早上在大體討論的時候我為了讓其他的委員暢所欲言我盡量都不講話我靜靜的聆聽各位委員的告見"},{"start":18248.53,"end":18274.196,"text":"但是大家冷靜想一想今天沒有揭弊者保護法所謂啦在公司經營權爭奪的情況下面互相搞來搞去各聘公關公司公關公司在往外延找立法委員來助政然後找媒體來助政這種事情還會少嗎看非常的多人沒有揭弊者保護法的今天right now此時此刻"},{"start":18275.868,"end":18292.438,"text":"早上在講的那個現象現在早就活生生的在台灣社會所上演那所以那不過其他委員認為這個部分有不一樣的看法我都尊重沒有說今天一定要強行過誰的版本所以第四條的部分是不是就保留"},{"start":18294.558,"end":18320.756,"text":"謝謝國常委員也先跟國安委員報告一下就是說雖然我們想法是立場不一樣但是你也了解我為什麼會這個思考的邏輯對 因為我也是有我的邏輯存在所以我的橫頻的做法就是我做一個附帶決議我希望實行了三年一到就評估用到私部門並不是說我認為私部門的揭弊是不重要好 這個再跟各位報告一下"},{"start":18321.596,"end":18328.148,"text":"案。第四條的部分我們就予以保留我們現在就是進行審查第五條請問各位委員有意見要提出"},{"start":18332.885,"end":18353.424,"text":"第五條的部分其實一開始主席的修正動議我們就趕快的去研究這個本來公部門之外再擴及到國營事業跟以先工後師就是以工為主但是我們再加上一個國營事業這樣的一個折衷比公司併進當然緩和了一些衝擊"},{"start":18354.724,"end":18376.257,"text":"那我要講到就是說揭弊者當然如果能夠有達到剛剛幾位委員說的好處當然是一體適用全面就實施啊就是因為考慮到在私部門有很多很大的個別差異比如剛剛講到金控公司欸可能大家覺得哇金控公司呢不分公營是民營啊都應該納入來重大弊案的管制對象"},{"start":18377.037,"end":18381.518,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":18405.526,"end":18411.572,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11"},{"start":18429.608,"end":18434.514,"text":"案件,或許在我們社區周邊那些用實際上在經營地下錢莊這些用動產租賃動不動就來騙年輕人的血汗錢的這些可惡的可能是組織犯罪集團我們當然希望都納入"},{"start":18444.565,"end":18445.426,"text":"判決判決判決判決"},{"start":18465.236,"end":18479.808,"text":"刑政法人財專法人有些政府設立的他的涉及公共力的部分甚至是超過國營事業或者有些以專門承接比如說我們所謂的全民健保為主的醫療機構"},{"start":18481.611,"end":18486.193,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期"},{"start":18507.023,"end":18534.799,"text":"負掛上國營事業,那這樣的範圍跟我剛剛講到那幾個部門哪一個孰輕孰重就有所排比所以才會不斷的提出說這些部門是不是應該納入我們去更廣泛的去聽聽社會大眾的意見所以我還是覺得第五條的部分如果是以政府部門以這個召委的修正版本政府部門為主外擴到國營事業是否有其他商榷的餘地我是持比較保留的意見"},{"start":18541.306,"end":18545.01,"text":"其實一個是課題範圍"},{"start":18547.628,"end":18573.701,"text":"一個是主體範圍一個放在第三條一個第四條規範的範圍在那邊做了限定了以後主體跟客體兩個都要落入那個範圍才會有所適用這個觀念上先建立清楚建立了這個觀念以後為什麼台灣民眾黨黨團的提案第五條會寫成這個樣子"},{"start":18575.815,"end":18601.281,"text":"就是沒有必要再重複繁複的去做所謂揭弊者再重新按照公司部門再重新寫一次沒有意義沒有意義請容我再說明一次主體範圍、客體範圍是前面第三條跟第四條兩個不同的法條他們各自有承載規範的功能"},{"start":18603.735,"end":18625.741,"text":"跟能量,在那邊就處理了。所以為什麼我第五條會直接把它寫成說是有事實合理相信存在第三條所定的弊案。第一個先排除掉大家早上所關心的胡亂爆料根本沒有事實的根據大家欽猜亂共"},{"start":18628.052,"end":18655.811,"text":"但第二個我們也要做成平衡是說那你也不能給揭弊者的義務強到說你最後揭弊的內容一定要有罪判決確定你才算揭弊者這個標準太高了啦連我們檢察官起訴恐怕都沒有百分之百嘛那警察在偵辦移送給檢察機關起訴那移送案件的起訴率也沒有百分之百嘛"},{"start":18657.29,"end":18683.526,"text":"所以我們為什麼把所謂者揭弊者只有事實合理相信第三條所定的弊案第二個是重點是具名具名你要受這個法的保護喔那你就要具名當有這兩個要件存在的時候會排除掉很多今天早上大家所擔心的亂講不負責任"},{"start":18687.008,"end":18713.814,"text":"因為這個人進入吹哨者保護法請大家不要有一個迷思啊就好像吹哨者保護法那種胡亂爆料的不負責任的因為有這個法好像穿了金鐘罩鐵布衫亂搞的事情牽涉到不管是民事的損害賠償責任還是刑事的處罰通通都免於任何法律責任就不是這個樣子嘛這個法律在設計的概念就不是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":18715.214,"end":18715.694,"text":"案（二）委員"},{"start":18733.171,"end":18745.011,"text":"真的會笑出來因為目前七個黨團的版本包括台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的版本我們在最後的法律效果其實是很minor的"},{"start":18747.215,"end":18774.717,"text":"很輕微你跟國外的法律比較非常輕微我也講個最簡單的例子我們的金管會店到晚在那邊吹噓說我們那個做得非常好有檢舉獎金送了多少出去你把台灣的data實際的狀況跟美國SEC人家怎麼在保護吹哨者那個檢舉獎金有多少"},{"start":18776.214,"end":18804.497,"text":"違反對吹哨者保護對他做不利處置的那個處罰有多重你真的拿美國法來跟現在的台灣法做對比你你會相信是我們一開始在立這個法的時候是跨出很謹慎的一步後面的法律效果那個時候我們在定的時候定到都有點不好意思這樣子真的有辦法保護嗎但沒有辦法我們也理解剛開始台灣社會"},{"start":18805.538,"end":18805.558,"text":"案 。"},{"start":18820.848,"end":18838.439,"text":"所以我們在後面的法律效果上面相對而言才會弄得比較緩和因此就有關於第五條的部分我先跟大家說明一下我們為什麼第一項沒有再重複的重複的針對公司部門的揭弊者另外"},{"start":18839.079,"end":18868.004,"text":"在作身份上面的區別因為在法條的規範上面我思考完了以後發現當你有第三條第四條主觀要件客觀要件交錯的限制了以後到第五條法文上就法條的文字上重複的再寫一次毫無意義毫無意義你應該是針對抓準所謂揭弊者他要滿足要件的核心要件第一個是包括他有事實合理的相信第二個他要具名"},{"start":18870.176,"end":18896.831,"text":"事由說適用範圍的部分就回到第三條跟第四條這個是我們在針對第五條設計的時候至於說跟揭弊者有密切關係是因為我們針對除了一定的人有一定關係的人在往外擴縮他親屬範圍的擅見在我國不同的法律當中老實講有不一樣的規範政人保護法有一套"},{"start":18897.931,"end":18915.103,"text":"其他有特定吹哨者保護規定的散件的個別的特定的法令他們針對有一定關係的人其實跟那個政人保護法他彼此之間的主觀範圍有一些"},{"start":18917.344,"end":18941.374,"text":"不一樣的落差但是我覺得回來我們如果說就基本上就還是先以正人保護法因為正人保護法相對而言可能是相對於其他散見在不同的法規當中所謂有密切關係的人在那個主體範圍的限制上也就是說他的配偶直系血親三親等內旁系血親兩親等內姻親家長家屬"},{"start":18943.795,"end":18972.15,"text":"對有婚約關係的人跟正能保護法在第二項的部分跟正能保護法做相同規範我會覺得是一個比較適當的部分好 莊委員謝謝主席主席提的這個修正案我想我再一次第四次提出來了我們19年的一個法案裡面你這個第五條第一項"},{"start":18973.63,"end":18973.897,"text":"案。第二項"},{"start":18976.735,"end":19005.625,"text":"那個部分本來在19年的時候我們在第二項是說前項第一款所稱揭弊的公務員是指政務官及各級民意代表以外適用國家賠償法之公務人員當初我們的19年的版本是這樣那當然所稱政府機關包括中央跟地方政府機關行政法人、公立學校、公立醫療院所、公營事業跟公務建築制裁論法人那今天你提出來這個版本裡面"},{"start":19006.525,"end":19007.486,"text":"案案案案案案案案"},{"start":19036.519,"end":19063.568,"text":"那你去再把它看第二項你又講說前項第一款所稱公務員指政務官及各級民意代表以外這個我就兩款齁我看起來就有一點衝突的地方啊這個是不是因為是昭緯的一個修正案那你剛好這一段裡面啊在立法裡面立法理由裡面沒有去提到是不是可以來就叫我們吳昭緯你的高見"},{"start":19066.076,"end":19088.312,"text":"這部分如果說希望我就那個修正理由那邊是希望我再把它補充一下是不是不是兩個矛盾我認為啦我個人的潛見是認為第一項的第一款裡面啊你講國營事業揭弊者裡面是只接受國營事業的一個派任嘛你像比如說你今天是次長你當某一個國營事業的董事長"},{"start":19089.153,"end":19096.598,"text":"有可能也是被派去當董事長啊可是你在第二項裡面你又去講說這個政務官跟各級民意代表是除外的"},{"start":19100.794,"end":19124.221,"text":"案 兩人會打架為什麼會打架你不覺得這樣會打架嗎我覺得不會啊一個是接受派任一個是原來的職務啊那這個我不知道哪裡不一樣因為我個人啦我個人淺見認為這這沒有什麼問題啦因為一個是派任嘛另外一個是他原本的職務以上那還是周委員有什麼高見也請周委員指教這條我都不太怕電欸"},{"start":19129.98,"end":19132.342,"text":"案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件》案。"},{"start":19157.346,"end":19157.846,"text":"案。第6條是在處理程序的問題。"},{"start":19184.182,"end":19207.617,"text":"也就是我剛剛所講的揭弊者你必須什麼第一個像受理揭弊機關揭弊沒有經在20天內沒有經過處理就是說我先科你一個義務你要先向第一層的機關去做處理人家不處理你才可以到什麼才可以到下面像"},{"start":19209.352,"end":19234.353,"text":"哪一些其他不是受理揭弊的機關比如像我們中央或地方民意代表第二個具公司登記的媒體業者第三個具法人登記的民間公益團體大家會發現今天不管我們在線的是公部門還是私部門對於通報的程序要先走第一層"},{"start":19236.107,"end":19236.467,"text":"判決判決判決"},{"start":19267.247,"end":19267.367,"text":"案（三）委員"},{"start":19290.882,"end":19318.922,"text":"我剛提到那個兩個那個意見喔確實是趙委員你真的在思考一下我再思考一下謝謝謝謝總委員那我們第五條已經保留了那我們現在在討論第六條對第六條那請問第六條大家還有什麼意見要補充其實第六條齁大家有沒有想過其實用意是好的剛剛黃委員說的嘛揭弊者他先有義務先向他體制內我們設定了一個受理揭弊的機關去進行揭弊"},{"start":19320.1,"end":19342.965,"text":"案件,若沒有回應,他當然被迫只能往其他原來非受理機關的這三個,中央或地方民代,媒體,公司登記的還不能夠是公民記者,然後法人登記的民間公益團體,像我們在我們地方上常有那些做慈善的慈善功德會的,那個都不算,因為那個慈善功德會有時候是"},{"start":19344.125,"end":19344.645,"text":"案案案案案案"},{"start":19367.851,"end":19380.476,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司"},{"start":19387.649,"end":19388.59,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":19413.806,"end":19437.737,"text":"也不至於因為大家的愛心還是持續的會找媒體找公益社團還是找民意代表去表達但是揭弊就不同了揭弊不是說我愛心做錯了反正只是額外的給那些不是真的很需要的人但是我們也不會因此呢以後呢我就不做愛心了但是揭弊呢他本身啊揭弊者"},{"start":19439.178,"end":19460.835,"text":"有可能對於為什麼要求揭弊者剛剛的法案當中到有一定的事實根據有一定的公共利害的危害我們才讓他成立但是呢一旦跑到了這三個裡面最大的一個困擾是什麼民意機關民意代表啊尤其中華民代言論免責權啊所以呢有時候閉案"},{"start":19461.894,"end":19487.936,"text":"交給了民意機關民意代表來進行舉發的時候反而他的約制的機制就沒有了今天民意代表我們講錯了弊案弄錯了言論免責權當然我相信絕大多數的民意代表愛惜羽毛不會這樣做但是社會上會擔心什麼只有少數的濫用言論免責權的方式他來進行爆料"},{"start":19488.942,"end":19510.516,"text":"本來我們要保障的是揭弊者但是卻讓引進了這個機制讓民意代表去受理揭弊的時候忽略了因為他有一個言論免責權的保障在對事情的查證上可能就不是像機關受揭弊機關的那麼的一個調查而且其實老實說"},{"start":19512.543,"end":19529.133,"text":"這三個單位都沒有什麼調查權的能力啦民意代表或許好一點但是正因為他有一點點調查能力但是又沒有相對制約他做嚴格要求查證的這個義務所以呢放了這個中央民意機關或民意代表的時候啊"},{"start":19529.873,"end":19544.641,"text":"或許會讓我們整個保障揭弊者的兩方美意反而讓民眾會擔心說如果我有個死對頭其實就要找我麻煩的那他是揭弊者他跑去跟民意代表講一講結果開記者會就公佈了"},{"start":19546.872,"end":19571.746,"text":"案 到底誰受到保護呢到底會不會有一些其他的利益受到妨礙呢所以我是覺得第六條反而雖然主席的版本當中第六條你沒有修訂那個我們政府部門或者是國營事業並沒有直接的關係我們是另外在受理揭弊機關以外拉出三個對象那我獨獨的是對當中的中央民意代表這個部分我深深的覺得有需要"},{"start":19572.586,"end":19587.719,"text":"有需要再多瞭解徵詢社會大眾的意見我們才這樣做不然的話這一條看起來很合理正當啊很合理正當嘛欸這些社會上的一些可憐的人需要公益幫忙的人不都這三個單位嗎民意代表啊為民喉舌啊"},{"start":19588.399,"end":19604.372,"text":"媒體發覺社會的陰暗面需要照顧關懷的還是說公益團體在照顧弱勢者看起來他們都跟揭弊者有同樣的促進社會公益的樣貌但是時任上的運作其實反而因為中央民代這樣的一個環節"},{"start":19606.233,"end":19629.707,"text":"案 恐怕會對揭弊的過程的嚴謹的查證失去了一個把關的依據因為他在問責上他缺乏一個問責的一個約制以至於呢揭弊本來是好事可能會變成變成被人家剛剛主席在早上說的被人家胡亂運用打擊特定公司類似這樣的一個工具這個呢可能要三思我是傾向保留黃委員"},{"start":19633.252,"end":19656.591,"text":"我覺得在討論法條的時候這個法條到底在做什麼可能我們要先搞清楚否則說發言的內容會造成社會上面的誤會揭弊者保護法是在保護揭弊者不是在保護中央民意代表中央民意代表要不要言論美哲權或者是把言論美哲權廢止這個都可以討論"},{"start":19658.819,"end":19666.919,"text":"這個都可以討論絕對不要言論免責權要推動修法這個都OK但是跟這個揭弊者保護法一點關係都沒有"},{"start":19668.592,"end":19695.675,"text":"一點關係都沒有因為為什麼這樣講到第二層次的部分為什麼範圍去做這樣子的限縮我相信市長還有署長很清楚本來在第二層的時候在第二層的時候早期在倡議的時候有很多人提出像剛剛鍾嘉斌委員所講的那為什麼媒體業者要限具公司登記"},{"start":19697.243,"end":19724.024,"text":"有很多很優秀的公民記者阿也應該要把他納進來阿那或者是說明謙公益團體阿為什麼一定要法人登記也有很多非法人團體阿在社會上面也有很多現實存在的非法人團體阿人家在做公益也是做得有稱有色阿之前在討論揭弊者保護法的時候這些聲音全部都有出來但今天為什麼第六條會長成這個樣子理由很簡單阿"},{"start":19726.755,"end":19734.917,"text":"因為2019年的時候我們的行政院所提出的版本這個就是你們當初行政院提出的版本"},{"start":19736.667,"end":19761.632,"text":"大家都被行政院說服說第二層不要開這麼大媒體業者還是要去公司登記比較好民間公益團體還是要去法人登記比較好這都是當初2019年我們的行政院行政院所提出來的版本長的就是這個樣子所以到這一屆國會的時候為什麼看這麼多的版本到第二層的時候可以"},{"start":19764.793,"end":19783.609,"text":"你 要求一個揭弊者說你今天投訴不成投訴不成那我可以再找誰把這件事情講出去其實第六條後面的那三款是為了要讓他得到保護去限縮他第二層可以講的主體範圍"},{"start":19785.698,"end":19810.074,"text":"如果說今天委員覺得為了要讓他說他保護限縮他可以講的範圍這個東西定得太窄了我們要再包括寬一點比如說為什麼媒體業者要有公司登記公民記者為什麼不行那也可以啊那就請大家提出修正動議嘛看你覺得要再加哪些東西嘛你要怎麼樣去描述嘛"},{"start":19811.134,"end":19839.717,"text":"這個在2019年的時候經過很熱烈的討論大家也都有不太一樣的看法但為什麼在今天2024年在討論的時候有這麼多的版本會寫成這樣就是因為當初行政院基於很多考慮拜託大家說剛開始的時候是不是不要放得那麼寬我們第二層的部分稍微限縮一下所以今天法條才會長成這個樣子做一下說明"},{"start":19844.34,"end":19851.273,"text":"中委可能剛剛表達那因為在吃午餐便當講的可能不夠清楚"},{"start":19853.904,"end":19880.136,"text":"這條至關重要的是什麼他是在第一項我們用台灣民眾黨提案第一項的倒數第二行至其向原受理機關揭弊時期受本法之保護所謂的第二層就是說原機關他在受理揭弊者的時候他認為如果查無實據或不夠重大他可能不構成就像憲法法庭在受理事件案的時候他可能認為不構成他就不受理"},{"start":19881.316,"end":19907.785,"text":"這時候第二層去找這三個機關這三個團體其實他們目的是什麼要讓揭弊者的保護取得一個依據那揭弊者為什麼他在原受理揭弊機關受理機關會審慎的嚴格的去審視是不是到達是重大的弊案違反社會公義那麼有一定事實的依據所以才有決定來受理機關本身"},{"start":19909.304,"end":19910.565,"text":"案 等21人擬具"},{"start":19939.584,"end":19939.845,"text":"案（二）委員"},{"start":19957.142,"end":19957.662,"text":"案案案案案案案案"},{"start":19985.285,"end":19986.286,"text":"事實基礎所存在本身的動機等等等"},{"start":20005.216,"end":20022.013,"text":"他的考量可能因為這我們也必須要老實說很多時候呢這些民意代表的問政可能有很多是要博取聲量的要開直播的有個日文議題就可以拿來講常常發生講了半天發現講錯了"},{"start":20023.908,"end":20040.126,"text":"如果說今天這種情況不會發生的話我想大家不會疑慮這種情況常常發生所以我才認為第六條當中所謂的第二層給予了有言論免責權的中央民代可以來提供給揭弊者的一個身份保護的一個依託"},{"start":20041.367,"end":20062.734,"text":"這個要審慎因為另外兩個公司的媒體或者是法人登記的公益團體或許本身有足夠的社會問責的一個機制避免它過於腐爛但是中央民大因為受言論免責權的保障可能過去我們一向以來社會的印象就是比較不放心這一條還是再度的說明建議是保留"},{"start":20067.45,"end":20093.639,"text":"我還是再講一次啊那法條的道理啊要把它講清楚啦現這三個啊現這三個啊他們揭弊者最後受不受保護跟那三款到底是誰有沒有言論別人的哲學一點關係都沒有為什麼一點關係都沒有因為呢如果受理揭弊機關他不處理"},{"start":20094.773,"end":20119.525,"text":"你要轉向什麼?別人去處理的話最後的法條的要件是什麼?最後法條要件要經過起訴、緩起訴、裁定交付、審判、懲戒、懲處、懲罰、彈劾、糾正你必須要滿足最後一項的要件才會受到保護啊你今天第二層你找中央民大也好找媒體也好找公益團體也好你不管找誰啊"},{"start":20123.717,"end":20143.334,"text":"我們這個法條的規範不是那三種人受不受到保護啊是吹哨者受不受到保護啊吹哨者要受到保護還有最後一項的節制啦跟中央民意代表到底有沒有言論免責權一點關係都沒有啊最後要處理的是什麼最後要處理的是最後那一項啦"},{"start":20144.229,"end":20164.998,"text":"你的吹哨到底有沒有實據嘛你如果沒有實據到第二項的時候吹哨者一樣不會受到保護啊這跟中央民意代表有沒有言論免責權有什麼關係更何況中央民意代表言論免責權也只有在委員會裡面啊我們大部分在講的時候是什麼有魄力的啊都不會只在委員會裡面講啊"},{"start":20166.462,"end":20191.212,"text":"就直接在記者會講啊開直播講啊因為那沒有言論免責權的保護啊就是要跳脫言論免責權的保護才會這樣做嘛所以回到這邊就不要去扯中央民意代表言論免責權 irrelevant一點關係都沒有你如果覺得中央民意代表在委員會裡面所講的不應該有言論免責權那就很好啊"},{"start":20192.659,"end":20208.693,"text":"就推動把他廢止嘛不要把他跟吹哨者保護法扯在一起嘛因為我講的再直接一點我希望保持和諧啦有時候話我都不要講得太尖銳一點關係也沒有嘛你最後取決還是最後一項嘛"},{"start":20210.043,"end":20224.634,"text":"那你說好啦那如果要找一些理由把這個條文給保留我也沒什麼其他意見只是我覺得在法條討論的過程當中法條的結構每一個項次他的安排他發揮的規範功能還是要把他講清楚黃委員是啊我說實在聽到那麼久我是很同意剛剛黃國昌委員的講法"},{"start":20235.213,"end":20250.818,"text":"因為大家真的回去看一下行政院在107年推出來的吹哨者保護法的揭弊者保護法的條文裡面的第6條就跟現在我們各委員以及黨團出來的版本是一模一樣幾乎一模一樣"},{"start":20251.909,"end":20271.328,"text":"尤其這三個中央民意中央跟地方民意代表據公司登記的媒體業者跟法人登記的民間公益團體這就是你們行政院的版本嗎你法務部那時候給行政院行政院之後送出來的版本啊而且你後面的立法理由也寫得很清楚啊你們寫了五大點"},{"start":20272.56,"end":20287.81,"text":"有沒有先向媒體媒體或是公益團體爆料預防減少國家社會損失但是這一些機關沒有行政犯罪權所以才希望變成是第二層的受理揭弊對象"},{"start":20288.971,"end":20300.643,"text":"那再者剛剛也提到了就是說這樣子的一個保護的一個狀況其實重點在於是第二項明定以案件由起訴裁定交付審判懲戒懲處懲罰彈劾糾正等相關具體客觀不法或違規情勢受本法保護之"},{"start":20309.295,"end":20332.523,"text":"第五點你也有提到所謂相關言論免責所以真的不用滾回一談不過我說實在話我相信即便這一條行政院現在還沒有所謂的院版版本出來但是法務部講說他已經修正了15次15次報行政院我們讓法務部來表達你的立場你可能也跟我們現在講的這個方向不會差距太遠"},{"start":20334.335,"end":20334.815,"text":"事務局副委員"},{"start":20355.538,"end":20355.758,"text":"案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":20379.847,"end":20408.541,"text":"我講的超級有道理你們都是在訓練口才而已你們那個條文你們根本就沒有去看阿法務部法務部的版本之前的版本跟現在的版本是一樣我們來我們來拗你這個就錯了你講的不是法律你知道嗎你講的叫公職語言我們審了多久了你這跳進來你只是為了揭露一下你有發言而已啊整部法律你知道我現在在講什麼嗎你才是故意在挑逗我從第10屆的時候我就提出來版本要不要看一下"},{"start":20409.622,"end":20412.003,"text":"刘仲敬等21人擬具刘仲敬等22人擬具刘仲敬等22人擬具刘仲敬等22人擬具刘仲敬等22人擬具"},{"start":20437.799,"end":20437.939,"text":"判斷判斷"},{"start":20459.694,"end":20467.9,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":20487.079,"end":20487.339,"text":"判決判決判決"},{"start":20510.39,"end":20510.71,"text":"判決判決判決"},{"start":20795.96,"end":20821.295,"text":"我們繼續開會所以第六條的部分我想說大家意見都很不一致那我們是不是就予以保留我沒有反對主席的保留在繼續下來之前我們在這個會議室當中我希望大家不要就討論內容後就給人家戴帽子說我會反對我會保留我會保留"},{"start":20822.976,"end":20850.269,"text":"過去我們立法院職權刑事法就在這個會議室就是召委主持的55條通通沒有討論就通通保留那個時候大家也是按照立法院的程序我們進入到院會去進行處理所以這個都是歷歷在目啊這個立法院發生的事情都是我記錄的還沒有很久欸不到半年前欸所以我們在審法案的時候陶冶協商或者委員會討論"},{"start":20851.96,"end":20868.474,"text":"大家除條除條來論理就像剛剛黃總召所說的互相尊重不見得說誰說的就是絕對的對那我們尋民主的機制那民主的機制包括有不同意見我們保留送院會這也是一個本院的一個議事程序的成立"},{"start":20869.595,"end":20869.615,"text":"案。"},{"start":20886.656,"end":20913.674,"text":"作無謂的人身公己給人家戴帽子我們都很誠懇的就法條來進行討論容若彼此之間表達不足或是理解上有限制不能彼此體會對方主張的意旨的內容這個我們都有機會在互相的在溝通但是一下子呢就討論的時候就給人家說啊你是為了反對而反對會保留保留這樣不是我們委員會進行主條審查的本意我想這裡面呢都是立法院的議事都是有公開"},{"start":20915.035,"end":20916.455,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":20942.734,"end":20951.519,"text":"主席我剛剛說第二條要發言我剛剛本來有舉手後來被他們兩個人吵架打斷我還是就是說這一條保留的理由就是"},{"start":20959.946,"end":20973.458,"text":"我們不能講說這個剛剛中央民意委員他在質疑就是說有關這個中央民意代表中央或地方民意代表他是這個受理受理這個第二層的這個"},{"start":20975.254,"end":21003.162,"text":"結筆對象 提出質疑不能說沒有道理你不能說他不是要件他還是要件之一你說結果他必須要受審判懲戒懲處這個也是嘛但是他第二層他必須必須像這個中央民意代表或具合法登記媒體業者像這個有做法人登記的這些團體"},{"start":21006.217,"end":21033.679,"text":"他為什麼向演藝人員申訴不行啊他就不受揭弊者保護了嘛對不對那為什麼神父、僧侶、牧師沒有列在上面沒有嘛所以我們列這個就是因為認為我們上面所各個版本提出來的對於針對這三個具這三種身份的團體跟個人他們有具有這個社會的一定的公信力嘛那所以"},{"start":21034.79,"end":21062.31,"text":"大家在在討論這一條的時候針對這三個團體跟身份提出不同的看法我認為這個很正常這個這個這個這個在這樣的討論過程中有必要這樣子扣帽子說你們就是為為保留而保留嗎所以我是我是同意宗家兵的結論我們這個東西我們還這一條我們還是保留針對這個中央跟地方民意代表的部分我們還是有點疑議"},{"start":21065.046,"end":21085.564,"text":"好 謝謝 那就第6條嗎?沒有沒有 我要第7條 因為我以為你宣布第6條對對 他包括我一直講第6條那就第6條予以保留那我們接下來審查第7條也就是楊瓊瓔所提案的第4條好 那請問郭委員有無意見要提出好 黃委員"},{"start":21088.117,"end":21115.529,"text":"第七條的條文基本上它在規範的結構跟目的上面是在處理有關於是你對於吹哨者不可以有什麼樣子的不利處分對於吹哨者不可以有什麼樣子的不利處分那因此這個條文本身就這個規範目的程式來講跟前面的條文沒有太具體的但問題是什麼但問題是說"},{"start":21118.069,"end":21118.09,"text":"因為"},{"start":21120.012,"end":21147.274,"text":"受規範的主體範圍不可以對吹哨者有哪些不利的行為他會直接牽涉到這個法案前面牽涉到有關於公司部門規範主體的問題因為不好意思我們現在是排序7對第67頁也就是林月琴委員提案的第7條以及楊瓊瓔委員"},{"start":21148.795,"end":21154.198,"text":"提案的第4條所以現在是要看哪一個Current第67頁您剛剛說的是69頁那個不太一樣再麻煩您一下"},{"start":21173.319,"end":21173.339,"text":"案 。"},{"start":21193.086,"end":21221.063,"text":"林月琴委員所提的案子看起來是是很有道理我們是不是就支持林月琴委員提出來的案子對啊我覺得林委員提的非常的道理只不過說林委員所提的案子我倒是注意到我們的主管機關好像有不太一樣的看法因為林委員所提的案子是包括了說他委任律師去做這件事"},{"start":21222.183,"end":21239.343,"text":"但你覺得你們的意見好像是說你們法務部的意見我都有拜讀我很認真的有拜讀你們法務部好像對這個委任律師去這件事情要受到保護你們好像有一些不太一樣的看法是不是先請法務部的說明一下麻煩法務部這邊說明"},{"start":21247.495,"end":21251.949,"text":"你們該不會連你們第一次提到本委員會的書面都沒看過就來開會吧?"},{"start":21254.053,"end":21275.357,"text":"案 您要不要請同仁趕快把你們上次提來的給你稍微看一下我們這邊來補充一下就是說關於這一個部分在損害賠償的部分我們這邊是認為說如果包含了這個期待利益跟律師的酬金這一部分會欠缺比較明確的不好意思我們剛剛才在說請你翻一下67頁"},{"start":21278.779,"end":21293.957,"text":"我們現在你剛剛主席宣告了以後可能署長沒有跟上主席宣告的PASS現在我們在處理67頁楊瓊瓔委員21人提案以及林月琴委員等17人提案那個署長你看到條文了嗎"},{"start":21294.958,"end":21320.595,"text":"來我唸給你聽:「揭弊者的被妥相關事證與書面電池記錄或延遲之方式具名像受理揭弊機關揭弊亦得委任律師代為之。揭弊者以延遲方式通報得獨自或經由委任之律師陪同至主管機關進行陳述,再由主管機關作成記錄並經揭弊者簽名確認。」署長您跟上進度了嗎?"},{"start":21325.513,"end":21325.853,"text":"律師律師律師"},{"start":21350.198,"end":21361.424,"text":"公益揭弊者保護法草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法"},{"start":21386.088,"end":21386.108,"text":"案。"},{"start":21391.243,"end":21418.793,"text":"本來我對那個第67頁林月琴委員的提案第7條或者是楊瓊瓔委員的提案第4條這兩個是有些不同那我先講那個我比較保留的態度的是原來我就看到這個楊委員的部分他裡面第二項說媒體為前項之行為那其實這裡特別把媒體放進來那這個意義就是說這個媒體"},{"start":21420.313,"end":21448.635,"text":"案。為什麼我剛剛對於前條保留的部分我認為這個登記的公司的媒體因為他本身有一定的規模可以對社會負責或者說可以去問責就是基本上的當可以問責的機構或個人呢我們把他納入讓他來受理揭弊者因為呢受理揭弊者本身他的身份初期我們是一定要保密的"},{"start":21449.655,"end":21467.383,"text":"有一個媒體一個公司大公司的媒體他說我這個是有評有據有揭弊者跟我檢舉那我因此經過了解之後有一定的事證有對公益有很大的妨礙是一定的弊案所以我拿出來報導其實某個程度上我們是信賴媒體"},{"start":21468.827,"end":21497.528,"text":"所以在這裡面可是這裡的楊委員的部分他這裡的媒體就沒有像在前面第6條的部分做這樣要明確的規範所以就有點可惜那至於林委員的部分我本來是認為沒什麼問題因為看到是說受理揭弊機關亦得委任律師代刑之案那因為揭弊者當然他很擔心身份曝光但是某個程度上"},{"start":21498.496,"end":21499.358,"text":"案件,並且擬併案案件,並且擬併案案件,並且"},{"start":21510.452,"end":21511.453,"text":"報復法草案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":21530.286,"end":21557.487,"text":"刑一些不必要的或者不應當的一些爆料呢來擾亂社會公眾的認知所以當這裡提到委任律師的時候的確相較於律師本身做一個事務所或者事務所的職業律師跟一個公司登記的媒體我覺得一個公司登記的媒體是比較可以接受問責的而相對律師的部分可能我知道"},{"start":21558.638,"end":21559.818,"text":"案案案案案案案案"},{"start":21587.845,"end":21615.841,"text":"一定具有一定受社會信賴而且可被問責那麼才不會呢造成揭弊者可以躲在這樣的機構後面或個人後面去濫行不必要的違反我們揭弊者保護法的一些爆料行為以上說明黃委員那我覺得這一條很好我覺得大家終於在這條有共識嘛就是楊委員的第四條跟林委員的第七條那我們就不予採納嘛"},{"start":21618.744,"end":21618.764,"text":"案 。"},{"start":21639.761,"end":21641.622,"text":"案案案案案案案案"},{"start":21665.899,"end":21690.327,"text":"桑委員你還堅持要...不會不會我只是希望順著走因為難得坐在這邊我看終於有共識我覺得這兩條港中委員也充分表他的看法覺得不適宜不妥那我也覺得他講的很有道理我們終於有共識了所以我才建議說那是不是就不予採納那現在大家多數的意見認為要保留那沒關係那我們就保留"},{"start":21693.245,"end":21706.555,"text":"案案第4條以及林月琴委員提案第7條部分予以保留那我們現在審查林月琴委員提案第8條請問各位委員有意見黃委員"},{"start":21710.444,"end":21735.801,"text":"我覺得林月琴委員這個提案第8條的部分雖然在其他的版本比較沒有看到但我覺得他這個條文利益非常的良善利益非常的良善所以對於林月琴委員等17人提案第8條條文的內容我競表同意所以各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":21737.065,"end":21756.218,"text":"那沒有的話是不是第8條就通過是不是大家難得有共識可以好那我們就第8條通過好業績嗎好那我們現在審查好楊瓊瓔委員提案第5條及林月琴等17人提案第9條請問各位委員有意見提出"},{"start":21759.929,"end":21777.582,"text":"沒有因為現在第五條跟第九條的部分受理揭弊機關不處理他的那個那個消極要件的部分兩個版本規範的不太一樣那就我尊重昭緯的決定因為"},{"start":21778.883,"end":21806.107,"text":"以前委員會是提案的委員如果沒有來就是自己沒有來自己顧自己的法案我們通常就就處理掉了啦那但是我們也可以用另外一種比較有溫暖的做法可能有其他的公務行程今天沒辦法來那要按照剛剛前例因為兩個條文規範不一樣要宣告保留也都可以我都尊重那看請召委才是"},{"start":21809.101,"end":21825.258,"text":"就這部分看看各位委員有沒有不同的意見所以是予以保留嗎還是還是怎麼樣"},{"start":21827.708,"end":21828.348,"text":"判決委員吳宗健"},{"start":21855.635,"end":21878.593,"text":"我們回到第69頁就是其他的版本大概對的比較一致第7條的部分那我剛剛其實前面已經前一輪發言的時候我已經講過了因為第7條的部分雖然在規範的要件上面主要是對於你不可以對他採行什麼樣子的不利措施"},{"start":21880.034,"end":21905.934,"text":"來進行規範,把不利措施的太陽把它給清楚的弄出來。只是說因為他的第一句話的那個主詞誰不可以採行不利措施會直接牽涉到有關於公事部門範圍的問題。既然是這個樣子前面就保留。因此這一條在邏輯上面就勢必要保留所以我建議第七條保留。"},{"start":21909.731,"end":21935.404,"text":"請問郭委員有沒有不同的意見?請問這保留到哪裡?因為這個很多條喔,你要一保留從69頁的吳宗憲委員的版本的第7條,林月琴委員的第15條,那一直到哪裡?要不要請議事人員幫我們主席整理一下?我這邊手上有啦,那還是怎麼樣麻煩你們唸一下。在這邊啦,你要來看一下嗎?"},{"start":21937.932,"end":21954.638,"text":"主席是你主席不是我主席那還是你們看一下69頁就是那一欄對照過去他有很多很多版本嘛那因為你們應該都有吧69頁69到77頁"},{"start":21970.811,"end":21971.031,"text":"案 與保留"},{"start":21987.387,"end":22004.945,"text":"第7條的部分予以保留另外我先再宣告一下說保留條文的修正動議也是一併保留這個我想說宣告一下這樣子我們現在審查第8條第8條的部分請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":22006.96,"end":22024.639,"text":"第8條的部分我先簡單的說明一下第8條主要在處理的是有關於消滅時效的問題那消滅時效的問題就以這條最核心的規範條文上面來講的話大概都是以6個月"},{"start":22025.78,"end":22027.141,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":22051.124,"end":22075.673,"text":"划繁為儉的方式,透過比較划繁為儉的方式來加以處理不過因為他這一條裡面的規定他在條次上面會牽涉到前面會牽涉到前面已經被保留的第第七第七條嘛"},{"start":22079.561,"end":22106.896,"text":"對,它會牽涉到前面已經被保留第7條的條文所以雖然在核心的規範事項上大家都是消滅時效與知悉時後算6個月的核心的規範內容但是因為牽涉到前面被保留的條文所以在邏輯上面恐怕要一併的被保留好,那請問還有沒有其他意見要補充"},{"start":22112.017,"end":22135.83,"text":"案。第8條的部分就予以保留。我們現在審查第9條。第9條我們看到第99頁。請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出。不好意思。這個第9條的部分他會牽涉到的是說當受"},{"start":22143.061,"end":22159.975,"text":"法律上規範具有保護義務的主體我現在先用比較抽象的法律名詞來形容因為在法律上面依照本法附有保護義務的主體這個來涵蓋可能是公可能是私可能是公私這樣講應該大家會比較清楚"},{"start":22162.646,"end":22182.856,"text":"受有保護義務的主體他違反這一件事情的時候他所基本上接下來對於受保護的吹哨者他基本上面他所要針對有關於他所提供的勞務"},{"start":22185.885,"end":22203.721,"text":"要透過什麼樣子的方式給他賠償或者是補償的規定那在這裡因為受保護的主體的吹哨者跟受規範的主體同時都會牽涉到有關於是不是公司部門並行的問題"},{"start":22205.525,"end":22232.886,"text":"同時都會牽涉到有關於公司部門並行的問題那核心上面的規範大概跟之前行政院所提出來的版本其實核心的內容是一樣因為大概就是除了不管是退休金或者是資遣費基本上是給相當於6個月工資補償金的總額如果他要終止掉他們彼此之間的勞僱關係的話"},{"start":22237.87,"end":22257.61,"text":"所以因為他會牽涉到有關於被規範的主體跟受保護的主體兩者之間是不是兼包含公職部門所以實質上恐怕第九條的條文也要予以保留以上是我的建議請問其他委員有意見"},{"start":22260.375,"end":22277.328,"text":"這涉及到我們召委版本的修正動議版本的一個基本的結構所以其實前面保留後面沒有理由不保留是好謝謝那第9條予以保留好那我們現在審查第10條第111頁請問各位委員有沒有不同的有沒有意見要提出"},{"start":22280.863,"end":22309.578,"text":"第11條的部分就是111頁有人是10有人是18有人是11我直接用頁字來講可能會比較精準一點就是如果是不管是五委員的提案或者是林月琴委員的提案或者是台灣民眾黨黨團的提案我們基本上面的提案因為這三個不同黨派的委員一開始的提案基本上都是以公司部門並"},{"start":22312.994,"end":22340.05,"text":"一併規範來幫助主要的規範結構所以針對公務員的部分大概就是依照公務員懲戒法跟考級法相關的規定來予以懲戒或者是懲處那如果說是就司部門的部分是由目的事業主管機關來給他科處一定的罰環那罰環的金額當然每一個版本不太一樣有的是五萬到五百萬"},{"start":22341.03,"end":22341.17,"text":"刑罰刑罰刑罰"},{"start":22362.794,"end":22378.649,"text":"法環上彈性的範圍所以因為這個也會牽涉到是不是會對司部門加以處罰所以我會建議這條條文予以保留那只不過說在做這個保留的同時我只想要請問一下主管機關一個簡單的問題就是說"},{"start":22383.663,"end":22409.461,"text":"我們接下來除非啦把私部門完全都割除在外如果沒有把私部門完全割除在外的話那接下來有關於就法環的訂定法環的訂定我們勢必要去面臨到很小的企業跟很大的企業兩者之間的差別那傷痛的問題其實也發生在"},{"start":22410.832,"end":22425.83,"text":"勞基法 當初在處理勞基法有關的法環的時候其實勞工界或勞工團體界一直有一個很強的倡議你必須要依照企業規模size大小的不同給他不同級距的處罰"},{"start":22427.284,"end":22453.306,"text":"那這樣子的話不同的企業他到底落在哪一個範圍哪一個級距當中比較有一個那個清楚的依據也可以符合現實上面不同的需求那另外一種規範的方式就是說我先沒有直接沒有在法律當中做這樣的區分但我在法環的額度上"},{"start":22454.167,"end":22457.269,"text":"案 等22人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 等22人擬具"},{"start":22481.61,"end":22490.932,"text":"案 採取Type A直接在法律裡面針對企業分歧還是Type B我們在法環的Range在法條的文字上拉得比較寬"},{"start":22492.165,"end":22518.881,"text":"但是接下來讓你們在具體個案裁罰基準的時候另外用行政命令定這個是第二種規範模式因為這個條文一旦保留了以後我相信各個不同的提案委員或者是黨團各自都還要再回去針對所提出來的條文看一看徵詢一下你們主管機關的意見是不是可以請我們的主管機關表示一下看法"},{"start":22521.315,"end":22548.895,"text":"報告主席、報告委員原則上我們是採B啦希望B嘛就不要立法者把集聚先定時嘛那你如果要採Type B的話那你現在就要開始思考一件事喔因為你如果要採Type B的話那個罰環的Range勢必要拉得很大在法律裡面喔您懂我的意思喔所以因為你們一開始所提出來針對我們黨團的版本你有一個"},{"start":22550.665,"end":22577.477,"text":"建議你們所提出來的建議我都有看你們的建議是說我們一下從20萬到2億Range會不會拉得太大這個我懂但是我為什麼這樣做是我在保留你們接下來才Type 2有一個裁量基準比較符合操作的空間那個不然你說"},{"start":22581.007,"end":22605.868,"text":"不管是二十萬到兩億五萬到五百萬以下是不是從小的到大的都可以滿足這樣的需求恐怕會有問題我只是先請教一下主管機關的意見這樣子的話我們在下一個階段在擬相關文字上面的調整方向上面會比較清楚反正因為會牽涉到我剛剛所講的問題所以我是不是也建議這個條文就先保留因為可能有一些委員"},{"start":22607.169,"end":22632.62,"text":"對於放私部門進來這個事情大家會有一些不太一樣的看法那如果說是要把他放到國營事業的話那恐怕我們處罰的方式要再重新思考要不然罰國營事業那個不曉得在罰什麼就罰國營事業那你不就在罰納稅人嗎真的要負責任的人根本沒有真的要負責任的人恐怕沒有真的被罰到"},{"start":22636.268,"end":22643.397,"text":"請問其他委員有沒有意見那沒有的話那就本條予以保留我們現在審查第11條第117頁請問各位委員有意見黃委員"},{"start":22653.703,"end":22676.62,"text":"那個因為到這一條就真的跟主體範圍、客體範圍一點關係都沒有了就真的跟主體範圍、客體範圍一點關係都沒有他現在在處理的是什麼他在處理的是說我依照規定向受理揭弊的機關陳述的內容如果牽涉到國家機密營業秘密或依法應保密的事項就不附"},{"start":22677.961,"end":22702.758,"text":"寫密的責任。」那你如果進一步的往外延伸那你如果向律師去徵詢法律意見的話那他本來也都是屬於應該要祕密的事項也不會牽涉到什麼也不會牽涉到說有關於懲戒上面的責任那所以我覺得這一條看其他委員的高點我是覺得走到這裡"},{"start":22704.588,"end":22719.704,"text":"我們也過了一條林月琴委員的版本大家也都覺得非常的好我們有一點進展這一條跟剛剛莊委員關心的事情或者是跟莊委員的關心的事情其實上面沒有什麼實際上面的差別"},{"start":22720.512,"end":22745.184,"text":"那我看了這些條文了以後我覺得那個吳宗憲委員的條文寫的那個樣子我個人是可以就是說就是沒有支持台灣民眾黨黨團自己本來的條文因為我覺得你本來後來寫的那個方式也不錯那我是不是建議就按照吳宗憲委員等19人的提案通過好那那個我當然是同我當然是很支持那不反對"},{"start":22746.365,"end":22755.309,"text":"第11條就依據吳宗憲委員所提的版本通過我們現在審查第12條請問各位委員有沒有意見?121頁"},{"start":22807.054,"end":22818.466,"text":"其他委員在看條文的同時我就簡單說明一下啦就基本上這個會牽涉到的是揭弊者他揭弊的內容如果揭弊者本身有涉及犯罪的話"},{"start":22819.517,"end":22834.97,"text":"那這個大家就會很關心嘛當你揭弊你自己本來也是在這個犯罪集團其中的一份子的話那給你一個什麼樣的處遇所以現在在條文的規範上面我們並沒有單純的因為揭弊者保護法"},{"start":22835.791,"end":22840.433,"text":"案案件事宜及法律責任案件事宜及法律責任案件事宜及法律責任"},{"start":22853.76,"end":22881.562,"text":"那也正是因為這個樣子所以才會在上面加說符合正人保護法第三條及第十四條第一項的要件這個時候才可以考慮可以依照同法十四條第一項與減輕或免除期刑那規範上面我覺得給那個法院在具體個案的裁量上是得"},{"start":22882.763,"end":22902.423,"text":"得依照同法的規定予以減刑或免除激刑。」因為有得這個字就讓法院在具體個案的裁量空間上面不會遭受到任何的限制或者是說不當的剝奪他也可以按照符合具體個案的狀況來予以處理"},{"start":22906.847,"end":22935.029,"text":"以這個角度上面來看的話吳宗憲委員的提案、廖偉翔委員的提案跟那個林月琴委員以及洪孟楷委員等人的提案基本上內容上面都一致大家仔細看一下發現內容都一致那既然各個版本的條文內容都這麼一致又沒有牽涉到公司部門的部分那是不是這一條我是不是建議就可以召喚通過"},{"start":22939.268,"end":22953.666,"text":"其實這一條到122頁有一個楊瓊瓔委員的版本我們今天其實都經過討論之後不管是不是有所保留都讓大家彼此的溝通能夠更為了解那其實這麼多的版本"},{"start":22954.087,"end":22983.462,"text":"案。姑然前面所說的那六個版本包括台灣民主黨版本呢是條文文字上精神體力上都是一致的但是那楊瓊瓊委員的部分他是用什麼呢得減輕或免除其刑他用減輕或免除這裡面的就多了一個跟完全這個前面好強烈的那些精神啊是不是在在用字上是不太一樣想請教一下法務部這個部分他的最後的結果會不會不太一樣"},{"start":22987.531,"end":22988.011,"text":"意思就是說"},{"start":23016.753,"end":23029.969,"text":"也贊成前面,聽到嗎?你是不是要讓我過去?你真的要讓我過去嗎?不是叫我做派人喔?要讓我過去就讓我過去喔?就是這一個條文的部分"},{"start":23033.509,"end":23051.077,"text":"其實我就是要請行政機關表示其實這七個版本當中有六個版本沒有提及到行政責任所以我要表示說其實今天我們的討論呢很多地方不是只有因為公司部門併進還是只以公部門先行這個角度來思考我們主張保留"},{"start":23051.517,"end":23051.537,"text":"案 。"},{"start":23070.302,"end":23086.336,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司"},{"start":23093.3,"end":23094.562,"text":"刑事責任刑事責任刑事責任"},{"start":23112.153,"end":23137.93,"text":"我到鍾佳濱委員這個講法我是接受啦。因為我們心目中沒有幾條。趙委員你應該也都看得出來啦。不是說七個版本一次大家都有共識。那就七個版本大家互相抄來抄去。那些什麼版本提出來以後連來討論都不討論。我們在幫他們討論我就已經心裡都已經很那個了你知道嗎?剛剛為什麼被我轟出去你懂我意思吧?"},{"start":23138.73,"end":23142.875,"text":"所以你是抱怨責林月琴委員嗎?不不不,我們都很頓頓的跟委司採納林月琴委員的提案啊,對不對?林月琴那是跟我慢慢地想出來的,你就知道後面那個六個怎麼來的齁?"},{"start":23152.878,"end":23156.1,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第2會期"},{"start":23175.953,"end":23178.754,"text":"案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具 «公益揭弊者保護法草案案 案 》案"},{"start":23195.151,"end":23209.998,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判決判"},{"start":23226.065,"end":23249.948,"text":"第13條的部分主要是針對有關於揭弊者他在符合政人保護法第3條的要件下他本人跟本人有密切關係的人可以去申請有關於人身安全的保護措施跟安置措施他比較重要的意義是說可能在看這個條文的時候有一些朋友會"},{"start":23251.169,"end":23277.2,"text":"犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":23280.001,"end":23302.571,"text":"在這邊針對於吹哨者在符合一定要件的情況之下人身安全限制的必要性第一項的部分是這個樣子那第二項的部分是說你如果為了要妨礙或報復揭弊者揭弊那對他或他有密切關係的來實施犯罪行為的話那這個時候"},{"start":23305.387,"end":23312.073,"text":"刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為刑事犯罪行為"},{"start":23331.569,"end":23349.463,"text":"除了楊瓊瓔委員之外其他的規範的方式基本上也都是採取比較一致的看法所以也尊重昭委還有其他委員的意見我是覺得這個不牽涉到公司部門的部分所以是不是就可以通過"},{"start":23356.797,"end":23383.337,"text":"謝謝主席因為經過我們莊委員的提點之後我才知道原來大家文字都一致也可以說英雄所見略同也就是說互相參考彼此的意見那麼因為這一題顯然的大概在彼此參考的過程當中有些細微的差別主要是說關於關心密切者要不要前面特別去強調包括配偶、直系血親等等這個是文字上會有不同"},{"start":23383.677,"end":23399.322,"text":"案案案件事宜等19人擬具、「揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭弊者保護法草案案件事宜等19人擬具、「公益揭"},{"start":23407.965,"end":23436.267,"text":"案件,對於揭弊者或其關係人在當身體或生命予有受害之餘者,那麼有關機關應該要採取必要的保護措施。」有時候看起來這樣的文字說起來比較原則性,但是事實上賦予相關機關的義務可能更為寬廣。那其他的具體的指明說,什麼意圖,要如何處刑,這當然也是一個非常具有剛性的一個保護效果。但我覺得這兩者都可以參採。"},{"start":23437.108,"end":23465.966,"text":"事不說我們也是保留兩者呢有機會到我們草野協商的時候都有機會來爭取另外一方的同意或支持中委的意思是希望本條予以保留嘛那黃委員的意見呢那都已經走到這裡了話都講成這樣了那就只能保留我只是希望啦是說"},{"start":23474.393,"end":23497.911,"text":"我簡單講啦就是說在這個法案內部有一些大家根本上面態度的不同這個我都尊重那有一些在旁邊跟這個法案相關核心的配套措施他不會因為公司部門而有所差別那我覺得如果不會牽涉到一些核心上面的差別能夠讓法案往前進是好事啦"},{"start":23499.059,"end":23512.405,"text":"那至於說規範的文字上面因為牽涉到前後條之文字構成的不同要先保留這個我都尊重好那本條就予以保留好謝謝各位那接下來審查第14條132頁請各位委員有意見提出黃委員"},{"start":23529.754,"end":23553.522,"text":"第一這條的規定是基本上是對於揭弊者身份資料保密相關的規定那這個也是一樣這也沒有牽涉到什麼公事部門的問題在體力上不管是公部門還是事部門要納進來對於他身份的保密義務的這件事情"},{"start":23555.002,"end":23574.989,"text":"就是要做的這不會有任何的影響那唯一要考慮的事情這個是不是等一下請主管接官發表以下看法唯一要考慮的事情是說當我們在法律把它列為是附有保密義務的事項的時候"},{"start":23576.671,"end":23598.579,"text":"違反這件事情違反這件事情你們是希望回到普通刑法去處理還是針對為了要強化對揭弊者的保護因為他跟一般普通刑法的洩密罪考慮就不完全一致了他本來就依法應該"},{"start":23600.168,"end":23619.558,"text":"我們這個法定下去它就是依法應保密的事項依法應保密的事項它違反的時候它所引發的刑事處罰這件事情我想聽一下主管機關的意見是說你們是希望回到普通刑法按照普通刑法的洩密罪來處理就好了還是我們必須要去呼應"},{"start":23620.678,"end":23648.515,"text":"對於揭弊者保護這樣子的一個立法意旨所以在揭弊者保護法裡面針對刑法的規定在特別的有一些加重的規範跟委員報告我們還是希望回歸到一般刑法的洩密罪來處罰就可以了因為我想要件事相當的這個我意見就不一樣我就跟你們保護部不一樣你說從"},{"start":23651.741,"end":23669.444,"text":"個人法律的部分你說從309妨礙名譽到妨礙信用的部分甚至於你從315條你到318那個部分就有妨礙秘密的問題你這個揭弊者本來是"},{"start":23670.445,"end":23670.965,"text":"保護法草案案。"},{"start":23687.045,"end":23689.045,"text":"公益揭弊者保護法草案案案。"},{"start":23717.91,"end":23723.632,"text":"案 三）委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案 三）委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案 案"},{"start":23743.995,"end":23744.236,"text":"判決判決判決"},{"start":23768.191,"end":23772.053,"text":"公益揭弊者保護法草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員吳智耀委員"},{"start":23797.24,"end":23816.197,"text":"第14條的部分予以保留我們現在審查第15條137頁請問各位委員有意見這個牽涉到的是說你在針對揭弊者的個資他可以請求用代號的方式來做"},{"start":23818.389,"end":23843.568,"text":"請求用代表方式來做期司各個版本基本上我覺得應該跟之前行政院所曾經公開表示過的態度都是一樣所以這個部分是不是看看啦尊重其他委員的意見我覺得這個部分是不是可以考慮就不要保留當然大家如果覺得想保留要保留我也都尊重"},{"start":23850.636,"end":23865.581,"text":"主席可不可以請教一下你的版本你說保密措施揭弊者得放棄之案好像你的版本有的有的沒有很好奇欸這個原因的考量是什麼就是您的版本"},{"start":23866.639,"end":23870.762,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":23895.742,"end":23896.923,"text":"法條上沒有寫就是表示要強行保密"},{"start":23911.704,"end":23933.501,"text":"法條上如果說得放棄嘛對不對如果你沒有寫的話是不是個保密就是變成是接受揭秘機關的一個義務就是說他對於因為我們都知道齁是不是不利益這個很難我們幫他做判斷當事人當然可以做判斷但是法律有時候會對於當事人的判斷也有限制譬如我就認為你就是要保密到底"},{"start":23934.221,"end":23934.241,"text":"案 。"},{"start":23949.352,"end":23950.012,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":23969.858,"end":23969.878,"text":"案 。"},{"start":23993.652,"end":24021.726,"text":"那我就剛剛所說的啦我的考量就是這樣因為這個部分是讓揭弊者他可以自己自由決定那這個部分當然是沒有問題但是剛剛當然中召委考量的也不是說一定沒有道理嘛但是有時候我覺得揭弊者他在揭弊的時候他出來說了一些什麼事情啦那當然他也不可以去侵害到別人隱秘密的事項嘛"},{"start":24022.566,"end":24022.586,"text":"案 。"},{"start":24053.57,"end":24078.209,"text":"我其實立場跟你一樣不是只有你的版本這樣寫好那請問一下沒有意見嗎所以這一條怎麼樣所以說這一條要沒有辦法我滿以為這一條會通過那黃委員有沒有意見"},{"start":24080.147,"end":24105.454,"text":"其他委員都說要保留了講破沒有用啦算了沒有關係啦大家有意見要保留就保留反正把這條規範的紙去大家都看完心裡自己有個底這樣就好了啦因為這個跟正人保護法裡面的規範基本上是平行的啦沒有什麼太高的爭議啦你說在這個過程當中你一定要我去什麼變身要偽裝"},{"start":24107.678,"end":24107.878,"text":"判決判決"},{"start":24119.847,"end":24119.987,"text":"案件 第15條"},{"start":24138.487,"end":24162.959,"text":"因為有時候一個弊案可以透過一個單一揭秘者的身份的蛛絲馬跡可以牽連到潛在的其他跟這個揭秘者相關立場或協同者這個其實在很多的一個現實案例上都存在我講的比較隱晦一點如果這個揭秘者我知道他是個水果管他是蘋果香蕉我可以推論還有其他的芭樂跟蓮霧"},{"start":24165.541,"end":24185.421,"text":"此時,其他具有類似身份潛在的揭弊者協同人或許會因此而受到牽連。所以我強調說,不是有些屬於揭弊者本身的權利只限於他本身而可以讓他願意放棄,就放棄的。我只要強調這一點而已。"},{"start":24190.904,"end":24208.268,"text":"大部分的版本其實也都有這個放棄的記載第15條的部分我們就以大家的意見保留我們現在審查第8條楊瓊瓊委員等21人提案的第8條在第141頁請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":24217.972,"end":24217.992,"text":"案。"},{"start":24223.764,"end":24247.658,"text":"那各委員的意見是希望本條一一保留是不是?保留啦 讓他們來喔 保留 保留都是好事啊往前走 讓那個提案的人有機會再來發表一下他的高見 又沒有人反對他們他今天應該來捍衛他自己的版本是啊 所以你的同事來或不會來 什麼保留跟著未反對或反對 那個基本的ABC都不懂"},{"start":24249.711,"end":24267.801,"text":"案 第8條與保留我們現在審查林月琴委員的第13條在第141頁請問各位委員有沒有意見我也要保留對國民黨的標準對民進黨的標準我也一樣啊都讓他們自己來吧好不好"},{"start":24270.543,"end":24289.94,"text":"當然因為也認同我們專委員的說法其實我要提一下剛剛保留的第15條其實平行的第137頁林月琴委員的第11條雖然他本人不在現場可能主席有忽略他的版本裡面剛剛那一條他就沒有放棄的啦我還是要補充一下不是說所有的版本都放棄啦"},{"start":24290.58,"end":24292.781,"text":"案 。第13條與保留我們現在審查第14條林月琴委員提案的第14條請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":24323.746,"end":24325.006,"text":"桑委員我們現在在審查林月琴的第14條"},{"start":24353.677,"end":24354.978,"text":"法務部有想要涉揭弊者保護官嗎?"},{"start":24384.403,"end":24413.376,"text":"保護也沒有。好,那就大家的意見就是本條予以保留,是不是?好,好,OK,謝謝。好,那我們現在審查楊瓊瓔委員等人提案第12條請問各位委員有意見"},{"start":24416.076,"end":24431.709,"text":"這一定要保留因為他只是併案的時候沒有把他併到因為他基本上跟人身保護的那個條文基本上應該是平行的規定只是說他這邊多一個所謂保護署的程序那可能就是"},{"start":24433.37,"end":24458.204,"text":"法治人員在相關作業上面的時候在條文並列的平行上面沒有把它跟前面的把它放在同一個欄位上但實際上面的規範的目的是一樣那既然前面那個條文保留這個就勢必要保留請問各位委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話本條予以保留那我們現在審查第16條就第143頁請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":24507.824,"end":24508.965,"text":"法務部主席和委員我們尊重委員的意見這個部分我們沒有意見"},{"start":24538.601,"end":24539.001,"text":"判決判決案例"},{"start":24561.348,"end":24573.7,"text":"一個是有罪者一個是有罪確定者我也是覺得說這個版本當中要確定跟有罪者在實務的操作上會有造成哪些差異嗎?第143頁"},{"start":24580.749,"end":24606.187,"text":"以林月琴的版本委員的版本跟臺灣民眾黨的版本一個是有罪確定者一個是判決有罪者一個是判決有罪確定者就是這個確定確定與否我們聽聽看啦聽聽不好意思我直接說明一下啦那只是法條呈現文字的不同即使沒有寫確定兩個字的委員"},{"start":24607.369,"end":24631.12,"text":"他心裡面在寫這個條文的時候一定是確定稍微想一下就知道了因為你到後面你要以他曾經被怎麼樣違準的話那顯然就是什麼你顯然不能夠你要把他排除在外你不能夠只是因為說他前面有一個"},{"start":24633.421,"end":24653.059,"text":"經過歷經一個刑事訴訟程序你最後還是要什麼你一定要有罪確定才可以把他排除在外因為這個一定是沒有問題一定是有罪確定沒有確定之前都是無罪確定對我的是有罪確定對那其他委員的那個意思其實也是有罪確定的意思啦"},{"start":24654.812,"end":24674.804,"text":"判斷否則依照目前無罪推定的話那不可能是做這樣的解釋那看各位委員有沒有其他的意見所以第16條大的意見是與保留是嗎我是覺得都剛剛討論完了花了這麼珍貴的時間討論大家都有共識了嘛對不對"},{"start":24677.864,"end":24695.293,"text":"其實我就是因為如此我覺得也不保留與否其實就是留待後續有不同意見者的討論空間這是剛剛莊委員在說的我們其實經過討論後就是往前推進不管最後的結論因為有這麼多的版本有些為了差異那我們讓他有討論的機會 謝謝這樣喔可是其實這一條不是共識度很高嗎"},{"start":24704.946,"end":24705.586,"text":"判決判決判決判決判決"},{"start":24732.038,"end":24750.39,"text":"這個主席17條各位委員看一下啦他這講的是被揭弊行為得給予獎金這個部分我突然有一個想法是不是大家及時廣益再想一下這個講的是揭弊嘛那如果是惡意揭弊這個部分是不是也要去做特別的考量法務部你們這邊覺得要不要有特別的考量不然我這總覺得怪怪的不夠橫平"},{"start":24766.695,"end":24784.745,"text":"我先跟你報告的是你現在在上面看的版本都沒有包括惡意揭弊真的寫法不一樣譬如說你看中線的版本他前面第一句的起手式他的起手式就是依相關法令公部門可以給獎金"},{"start":24786.474,"end":24800.312,"text":"所以他的那個法源的基礎不是只有單純的在這裡的揭弊者保護法他還要扣合一個其他的法令所以其他法令沒有在給惡意的錢"},{"start":24802.615,"end":24803.255,"text":"犯罪案案。"},{"start":24832.975,"end":24857.408,"text":"或相關稅務事件或食安事件等散落在不同的法規當中就有關於檢舉獎金的部分都有規定而且也給行政機關透過法律授權的方式去制定行政命令甚至有一些因為現在的體系太混亂了甚至有一些是屬於"},{"start":24858.909,"end":24863.552,"text":"案件,未必有法律明確授權的行政命令,是屬於內部規則的方式。」"},{"start":24889.11,"end":24891.813,"text":"其實這個給揭弊者一定必要的一個獎勵是大家都認同的"},{"start":24905.913,"end":24906.153,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":24924.366,"end":24924.626,"text":"判決判決判決判決"},{"start":24942.714,"end":24950.46,"text":"案 下限不得低於總額百分之十。不得低於因為違反法令者因為揭弊所受的罰款、罰金、沒收的財物或財產上的利益或追增價額還有財產抵償"},{"start":24965.211,"end":24966.453,"text":"案件 被揭發後遭受到的處罰,而這個處罰的一成是要"},{"start":24980.267,"end":24985.51,"text":"公益揭弊者保護法草案案 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件 案件"},{"start":25010.458,"end":25026.452,"text":"案 揭弊對象他那個人因此受到政府所處罰的我可以拿到一成來做這個獎金這個好像會造成像目前我們過去的這個所謂的檢舉違規那現在慢慢有些檢舉違規呢行政機關也發現恐怕造成腐爛後我不是說這兩者是一致的只是說有經過一段時間之後發現這個金額啊"},{"start":25037.008,"end":25038.528,"text":"案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":25057.054,"end":25069.441,"text":"因為我是很想辦公廳會所以我覺得這個部分也讓我們來跟社會各界徵詢意見要不要對於揭弊者給予的獎金要有對價式的一定的比例以上那這以上我的看法好 謝謝黃委員中委員的問題簡單回應一下"},{"start":25077.992,"end":25089.665,"text":"針對有關於不法行為之揭弊因為不法行為之揭弊所取得相關的罰款給他一定比例的回饋這個在立法例上"},{"start":25091.015,"end":25110.18,"text":"案件,這在立法律上一點,一點都不特別。第二個部分,就最低比例,現在還只是最低比例,你甚至在稅務案件當中,他的綱性規則寫得更清楚,因為你去檢舉他逃稅的案子,然後因為"},{"start":25111.5,"end":25134.569,"text":"所追徵到的稅額以及罰款在我們現在的稅務獎金裡面定的更清楚當然我必須要講清楚那不是給公務員的公務員依照他自己職務上的行為那是他本來就該做的事情那個是給外部的人士那甚至為了怕公務員跟外部人士做串接中間還有一些其他上面的設計"},{"start":25136.13,"end":25149.37,"text":"不過就這個條文本身因為給獎的方式以及規範的內容各個版本上的確有一些差異存在所以我贊成就跟前面的條文一樣就保留"},{"start":25153,"end":25168.795,"text":"我看這樣子大家的意見就是趨向本條予以保留第17條的部分就予以保留我們現在審查楊瓊瓔提案第17條在第153頁請問各位委員有意見提出"},{"start":25173.963,"end":25181.929,"text":"法務委員這直接動作比較快一點講就是說現在大家再看一下153頁用頁數看現在比較會清楚這樣比較不會混亂153頁楊瓊瓔等21人提案他是因為前面他已經有規範的保護令"},{"start":25193.188,"end":25195.152,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":25204.298,"end":25223.197,"text":"那這一條就可以刪除但是剛剛大家似乎委員的看法是說也不要因為提案的委員沒有來就這樣子沒有把他納入考慮所以前面保護令的部分既然保留了這一條勢必要保留要不然前面那個保護令就毫無意義這個是第一個"},{"start":25224.238,"end":25226.319,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":25241.664,"end":25267.777,"text":"那相同的邏輯也出現在153頁台灣民眾黨黨團的提案我們認為說要設揭弊者保護委員會那前面在第二條的部分已經被保留了所以在邏輯上我們第18條的部分也就是大家153頁所看到的楊瓊瓔委員的第17條林月琴委員第24條以及台灣民眾黨黨團提案的第18條三個部分基本上都要保留"},{"start":25270.835,"end":25293.991,"text":"我們還是一樣一條一條第17條就是153頁的部分請問還有沒有委員有意見要提出本條予以保留林月琴委員所提的第24條這跟前面13、14那個其實應該都是要用保留看看各位有沒有不同意見就本條予以保留"},{"start":25295.829,"end":25311.546,"text":"案 。接下來是台灣民眾黨提案的第18條在第153頁請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出是不是也是保留"},{"start":25314.827,"end":25325.652,"text":"那就一樣就是都保留好那徐巧欣我們在接下來審查徐巧欣等19人提案第18條請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出"},{"start":25344.685,"end":25356.894,"text":"請教主管機關這個有沒有列會不會影響到後面所謂的誣告未證罪交檢調機關調查及法起訴的效果?這條算很有創意的看起來又像盲腸"},{"start":25373.52,"end":25373.54,"text":"案。"},{"start":25393.462,"end":25417.065,"text":"我覺得這一條其實是不用規範可是問題是提案的人沒有來闡釋他自己他放進去他的要加強或意義在什麼地方看起來是一個提醒作用而已啊可是法律條文涉及到刑法的部分應該很少去用提醒的這樣的來當理由的吧所以我尊重提案人的"},{"start":25417.965,"end":25436.672,"text":"對啦,就把他留著啦因為其實你有時候寫這些處請注意性的規定會讓一些對揭弊者保護法可能有一些擔心或是覺得有一些覺得你亂爆料怎樣怎樣你沒有用法條的文字寫是上去"},{"start":25437.512,"end":25464.893,"text":"案件,其他人可能比較不知道說你亂搞本來就有其他的罪名可以去追溯你所以雖然是一個注意性的規定那對於《揭弊者保護法》本身並沒有要保護這些亂七八糟的內容也有一些澄清的效果不過大家都決定要保留那是不是就見請召委就把它保留下來好謝謝那我們就第18條的部分就於保"},{"start":25469.264,"end":25481.799,"text":"需小心等19人提案第18條的部分予以保留。好那我們現在審查第18條就是第155頁那請問各位委員有意見。好黃委員。這個應該有共識了吧。這個應該有共識了吧。"},{"start":25490.193,"end":25514.768,"text":"這個本法的施行細則由行政院會同司法院考試院定製,這個大家還有不同的看法嗎?有,其實我也在想說,這樣夠還不夠?是,我是在想說有沒有道理啦?有沒有道理啦?監察院放,因為各個機關都會有碰到這樣的一個問題啊。"},{"start":25519.855,"end":25537.6,"text":"我來請教這個法務部門這邊你們的高深的法律見解看看因為我是覺得監察院放進來監察院是受理機關不過我們還是尊重委員的意見沒有應該是有可能有弊案"},{"start":25539.585,"end":25540.025,"text":"判決委員楊瓊瓊等21人擬具"},{"start":25558.03,"end":25558.91,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":25587.321,"end":25587.341,"text":"案 。"},{"start":25606.036,"end":25627.604,"text":"案,當然這樣說有點玩笑話啦,但事實上呢當我們再處理到這個事情細節的時候,行政院會同司法院,那麼後面的考試院也好或監察院也好,到底需不需要納入,因為我剛剛再說一次,這個基本上的一個憲政體制啊,多數意見都認為考試院跟監察院都不用保留了,那我們本條文要不要保留?"},{"start":25629.369,"end":25632.01,"text":"法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":25657.554,"end":25680.552,"text":"公部門的部分把他納入因為對公務員所為的不利處遇他基本上跟哪一個院最有關係考試院會跟保訓會那邊會跟全訓那邊直接做連結所以為什麼把考試院拿進來那不是亂下的啦絕對有他的理由在裡面"},{"start":25683.629,"end":25710.977,"text":"對所以我就跟你解釋說那當然你如果問我的話我向來啦我認為臺灣未來應該要走向三權分立啊現在就國不離三中嘛你也知道修憲就推不動嘛你也沒機器啊對不對我我我沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦不要我先不要我我老實跟大家講齁我今天坐在這邊"},{"start":25713.001,"end":25738.449,"text":"我就是希望把這個法案在委員會的程序我一定要從頭到尾參與到滿所以莊委員你應該可以聽得出來我今天是很有誠意通通都沒有在吵我跟你解釋跟你解釋說為什麼裡面有考試院是因為你看裡面具體的條文公部門不立處分的部分"},{"start":25739.891,"end":25746.296,"text":"現在在我們的憲政體制下誰在管就考試院嘛所以為什麼一定要把考試院拿進來的理由在這裡"},{"start":25771.132,"end":25777.498,"text":"因為他像盲腸所以放進來,可是問題是他現在事實上存在,人家一個人權委員會。我先問你們的意見,看你們感覺怎麼樣?這次能夠來?你們的看法如何?你們有來嗎?我要講一句,表演一下,不然你們坐在那裡。"},{"start":25794.943,"end":25818.398,"text":"檢察院報告委員會我們內部有討論過那既然檢察院是受理機關之一連國家機密的部分也是受理機關所以有關於施行細則的訂定的時候是建議能夠把檢察院也放進去以上報告這樣保留大家集思廣益"},{"start":25822.15,"end":25845.301,"text":"案。第18條就予以保留。我們現在開始審查第19條第156頁。請各位有意見的可以提出來。主席"},{"start":25848.498,"end":25868.087,"text":"我特別注意到你的版本沒有特別意思啦你的版本是說世新日期有行政院定資我特別注意到您的意見是這樣所以對啊"},{"start":25877.579,"end":25879.32,"text":"案案案案案"},{"start":25908.137,"end":25908.157,"text":"案。"},{"start":25914.891,"end":25940.562,"text":"請以宣讀。父代決議已有鑒於現代社會經濟與政治間的互動頻繁,許多公部門的貪腐,其噪音便使於私部門基於不法利益的謀取,甚至關說賄賂所致,因此一方面私部門本身含瓜領域對社會大眾權益的影響重大,二方面藉由肅清公私部門間共同違法等面向,使得保障人民法益,而法制上需考量"},{"start":25941.002,"end":25958.073,"text":"犯罪犯罪所具備的隱匿性與共犯結構性,不論公司部門,對於組織機關的外部人來說,內部的資訊是相當隱晦而難以得知的。若能鼓勵內部人主動提供相關資訊,除了可以及時取得事證,有效打擊犯罪外,"},{"start":25958.653,"end":25974.043,"text":"案）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司"},{"start":25982.068,"end":25999.521,"text":"揭露不法侵害公共利益的揭弊者以有效打擊政府機關與民間企業之貪腐弊端推動公私合併之揭弊者保護法案提供安心吹哨的保護措施並期於推動過程中形塑揭弊者正面形象之價值觀"},{"start":26000.922,"end":26021.124,"text":"竟而建構對貪汙零容忍之社會氛圍原建勤法務部於揭弊者保護法生效施行後三年內提出司部門推行公益揭弊者保護法之可行性評估專案報告提案人委員吳宗憲聯署人謝龍介羅志強洪孟楷附帶決議二"},{"start":26023.24,"end":26033.29,"text":"以國內以中小及微型企業為經濟主幹,依照經濟部2023年中小企業白皮書,2022年已超過163.3萬家,占全體企業達98.9%,又依據2022年行政院主計總署微型企業瓜胡及5人以下公司。"},{"start":26044.921,"end":26054.209,"text":"案）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第"},{"start":26064.537,"end":26084.997,"text":"三（三者是否均一己施用仍有諸多爭議不宜貿然同步增定二（原進行法務部會同相關單位與揭弊者保護法生效施行後三（個月內提出各目的事業主管機關之行政指導原則毗例相關產業得以依循提案人委員吳宗憲聯署人謝龍介羅志強洪孟楷宣讀完畢"},{"start":26087.185,"end":26095.273,"text":"主席,那個在處理我們的意識上,因為附帶決議保留是沒有意義的啦,我是覺得因為我們的案子保留是要到院會去做決定到底是公私併進"},{"start":26108.547,"end":26118.275,"text":"案案件事項．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第12屆"},{"start":26124.841,"end":26125.261,"text":"判決判決 判決判決"},{"start":26141.833,"end":26169.742,"text":"實用了這麼多的充足的時間來做充分的討論並沒有達成這樣的一個目標那雖然對主席提出修正動議的版本內容上很欽佩但是呢那就附帶就無所複利嘛是不是我們就好謝謝謝謝鍾昭緯我沒有跟那個議事人員討論過他們是認為說既然我們他所原本所屬的條文已經是保留了那這附帶決議就是一併保留然後送交院會處理"},{"start":26172.584,"end":26196.145,"text":"對我們剛剛有跟那個不是啦第一個啦我講個理由啦就是不是請議事人員講一下我們請議事人員解釋一下好不好沒有意義啊你到院會的時候你要做什麼附帶決議我們都沒意見啊你這裡就不會通過而且我們今天是這個公益揭弊先行的你這邊做的附帶決議又弄一個中小企業的進來"},{"start":26198.069,"end":26201.339,"text":"我是覺得比較奇怪我好意跟你提醒"},{"start":26203.923,"end":26229.71,"text":"楊瓊瓊指示向委員會報告附帶決議的部分實務上面是有附帶決議被保留但是這裡還是尊重委員會的合意是啦我懂你的意思啦但是我這個意義沒有意義嘛我們今天很好不容易把它審完啦意見是保留的嘛那保留的你像比如說你到院會的時候你要去做出什麼附帶決議那再來做嘛黃委員"},{"start":26233.166,"end":26262.397,"text":"是我覺得大家還是思考一下啦就如同剛剛委員有講就是說其實我剛我剛在審學生輔導法可我也在思考你剛講是說保留也是一種進步啦本來就是啊大家都保留啊某種程度上所以你就來了你就你就別人在那裡說什麼來煽惡別人賣你我不能收你我沒煽惡別人賣你不要這樣我現在我已經很和緩了所以魏雄委員先把你的麥克風關掉吧現在我講好不好講你的我沒講的就好我講啦好啦你先關掉啦"},{"start":26262.737,"end":26263.057,"text":"行政部門的態度"},{"start":26281.152,"end":26286.493,"text":"兼具:「公益揭弊者保護法草案案案件事宜之事宜之事宜之事宜之事宜之事"},{"start":26311.078,"end":26339.234,"text":"那我們也看到了現在有兩個版本來討論那一個月或是一個多月的時間到底行政部門能不能拿出你們的版本來一併討論我覺得我們已經退到這樣的一個程度大家都希望往前走那今天也都逐條討論大體發言三個小時逐條討論兩個小時那總是現在我們要更精確的不要到最後變成是說我們都是要去表決嘛"},{"start":26340.831,"end":26365.857,"text":"那行政部門到底現在掌握的狀況怎麼樣我們還是要尊重行政院的決定沒有被授權對我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":26367.52,"end":26371.462,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":26396.494,"end":26412.345,"text":"沒有辦法滿足人民對於揭弊的需求、打貪的需求、防堵的需求。總委員主席我想接下來的議學的程序的討論我大概跟大家請"},{"start":26414.226,"end":26437.138,"text":"案 。事實上根據我們議事討論的規則委員會是呈院會之命去進行院會交付的法案的審理像本案因為在院會一讀後交付本委員會進行審查所以到時候審查完畢我們要有一個審查報告但是今天我們的審查內容並沒有能夠對院會做出任何明確的建議"},{"start":26438.058,"end":26457.326,"text":"也就是說我們的每個條文除了少數在通通都是保留所以我們能做的審查報告就是包括今天最核心的分歧就是到底要公私併進還是以公部門先行這個基本的差異我們沒有辦法跟院會說明說我們採取哪一個版本哪一個立場"},{"start":26458.406,"end":26458.426,"text":"案 。"},{"start":26471.206,"end":26488.44,"text":"那什麼是附帶決議呢?附帶決議並不是附帶要院會來執行我們要求的事情。這個附帶決議是希望在場的行政機關能夠提供我們進行法案推進所必要的一些協助。"},{"start":26489.512,"end":26518.484,"text":"其實委員會做成的附帶決議其實對於行政機關來講從我們這次憲判一一三憲判九我們就很清楚其實整個行政機關行政立法互動是以院會院跟院之間去進行互動那委員會做成的附帶決議過去以上以來都是敦請行政機關為了協助委員會進行院會交付的預算案的審查法案的審查等等人事同源的審查我們希望他配合提供資料"},{"start":26519.204,"end":26519.224,"text":"案 。"},{"start":26527.748,"end":26552.463,"text":"內容是說假設是個假設不是假設是假定已經設定我們通過的版本是公部門先行那再請行政機關去研議評估三年內要怎麼樣推到私部門去又或者說這個揭弊者法案的生效後的三個月要如何如何如何這些事情在委員會都還沒有發生"},{"start":26553.234,"end":26553.754,"text":"行政機關等21人擬具"},{"start":26574.847,"end":26575.487,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":26597.955,"end":26598.275,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":26628.395,"end":26630.396,"text":"我反對這個決議是有附帶決議是有他的道理的啦你像比如說我們第一條是保留啦我們第一條我們把那個邏輯方向一致大家就可以往前走啦就是說你第一條"},{"start":26656.877,"end":26657.417,"text":"案．一．委員"},{"start":26679.718,"end":26704.005,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司"},{"start":26708.726,"end":26729.152,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期司法及法制委員會第7會期司法及法制委員會第8會期司法及法制委員會第9會期司法及法制委員會第10會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第11會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司"},{"start":26736.206,"end":26736.386,"text":"案（二）委員"},{"start":26763.767,"end":26764.087,"text":"案（二）委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":26780.555,"end":26781.575,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":26805.322,"end":26822.234,"text":"桑董透偉是誰想收割大家看得很清楚沒有版本一直在那邊講話我真的搞不懂為什麼我們沒有人要把你們收割這個我們只是跟你說這個衝擊太大而已誰要收割你們如果要享有那個成果你就好好來討論就這麼簡單我這樣講條文保留表示委員會沒有特定的立場"},{"start":26831.921,"end":26832.482,"text":"案案復代決議復代決議復代決議"},{"start":26848.852,"end":26850.034,"text":"案件,此外,此外,此外。"},{"start":26864.614,"end":26890.333,"text":"案 。此附帶決議是因為我們在審查過程當中因著我們有個審查決定我們覺得要做這個附帶決議而且這個附帶決議也不需要回到院會去做成了附帶決議之後就請行政機關請他們協助所以院會沒有義務去處理我們委員會所保留的這個附帶決議除非這個附帶決議跟未來院會再受理再重新啊院會再"},{"start":26891.494,"end":26894.515,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第12期司法及法制委員會第12期司法及法制委員會第12期司法及法制委員會第12期司法及法制委員會第12期"},{"start":26910.287,"end":26925.313,"text":"案 委員會只是向大院會負責受院會之委託進行審查後交一個報告給院會委員會那再做出一個附帶決議是居宿院會我們的附帶決議向來就不是居宿院會我們的附帶決議向來就是提醒行政機關參著參採能夠給予我們立法或者審查預算的一個協助"},{"start":26931.835,"end":26932.516,"text":"判決者保護法草案案。"},{"start":26947.967,"end":26968.551,"text":"實在是不曉得這個互代決議的效力對象是誰啊所以才說這個是醫學上的問題所以我才請主席明察我們委員會做的互代決議的效力是向行政機關延期如果說保留的意思大概是指說這個事情我們就放在委員會下次有機會我們再來做討論不是交到院會去啦"},{"start":26970.858,"end":26997.855,"text":"因為我們剛有問過議事人員他說以前也有這樣子做那當然為什麼會提這個附帶決議那因為是前面修正東西說真的啦我今天就是不希望說我們法案整個卡死在那裡那我也參照了大家的想法然後公聽會的想法以及行政機關的想法所以我才會做私部門那個領域的限縮那當然這個我說真的啦我這樣做"},{"start":26999.011,"end":27016.004,"text":"判決判決定判決判決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定判決決定"},{"start":27023.81,"end":27048.381,"text":"負貸決議,這就是一個平衡我們今天限縮私部門的這個部分,我們今天要求行政機關三年到了就來檢討,我不是說三年到就一定要把規劃進去,而是三年到了就來檢討是不是要擴及私部門。來,趙偉,我不是跟你說你這個不好啦,我不是跟你說你這個一跟二不好,我不是這個意思。"},{"start":27049.588,"end":27070.481,"text":"你那個去考慮到最後一般民間企業要去揭弊你先去做一個訂出一些行政指導來我都沒意見未來搞不好真的會走到這一步都不一定我現在的講法是說你第一條都還保留我們是在講議事程序的問題不是說你吳宗憲這個附帶決議一跟二不好不是這個意思嘛我是阿條阿條你自己在搞什麼"},{"start":27079.428,"end":27080.849,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會議．立法院第12次全體委員會議．立法院第12次全體委員會議"},{"start":27111.089,"end":27111.109,"text":"案 。"},{"start":27127.62,"end":27127.64,"text":"案 。"},{"start":27147.039,"end":27159.726,"text":"案件,由院會交給我們的七個版本,包括主席的版本,都在本委員會進行審查。在審查的時候,有召委在對自己的版本提出修正動議。這個修正動議我們在委員會也沒有做成處理。"},{"start":27160.908,"end":27160.928,"text":"案 。"},{"start":27191.849,"end":27192.549,"text":"判決議案 判決議案判決議案"},{"start":27220.643,"end":27246.36,"text":"案 內容上我們剛剛專委也說了我們不是在對內容有意見 而是說你把這個負債決議保留了也不是決議喔 沒有決議喔 因為現在的情況當然也不宜做成決議我們也覺得內容上也沒有必要去給他否決 但是保留這樣的一個處理程序就像剛剛說的這個盲腸 你把這個盲腸再送回去給月會月會交給你的時候沒有這個東西啊 現在交回來這個東西要怎麼處理"},{"start":27247.961,"end":27261.961,"text":"法律提案（立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12屆第3會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法律提案．立法院第12會期司法及法�"},{"start":27263.322,"end":27290.723,"text":"交流意見而已啦齁那主席怎麼決定我我覺得嚴禁於此啦嚴禁於此我再說服一下我再來說服一下就是就是說沒有沒有我再來說服趙偉一下趙偉你問你這邊的議事人員就是說你這個不用在這裡處理我們不要回這個我們今天好不容易我們今天大家有進展了你是你在二讀會的時候草野協商的時候你要把這個做出來我就不反對啦"},{"start":27292.694,"end":27292.954,"text":"負貸決議等21人擬具"},{"start":27308.561,"end":27332.285,"text":"我再講一次喔稍微我不是說你的附帶決議不好我也不是說你的惡不安都不是我的意思就是說不是放在這邊應該是你到草野協商的時候在二讀會的時候你們再把這個附帶決議做出來我們委員會深化進來什麼我們這算往已經好不容易把它推進了我們它僵在這個地方你不可能因為這個去表決吧不然我要來照啊"},{"start":27335.97,"end":27352.25,"text":"那我不是因為這個慣例很多那我剛也查我剛也查了一下我們那個113年7月5號我們在302會議是那個外行委員會他也是一樣的做法就是附帶決議也是保留啊呃我看一下吼而113年7月5號對"},{"start":27356.881,"end":27383.171,"text":"結果我剛問了祖密祖密說過去這個例子很多這個例子很多因為我這邊查到是這個啦所以然後再加上那個剛剛議事人員說其實過往也有這樣的例子嘛那事實上我覺得我覺得這個不會有影響啊對不對不會有影響嘛那如果說今天這個東西會影響當然說真的欸"},{"start":27385.998,"end":27386.238,"text":"法律局局長"},{"start":27404.096,"end":27404.216,"text":"案（二）委員"},{"start":27422.672,"end":27424.553,"text":"案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":27448.345,"end":27448.425,"text":"判斷判斷"},{"start":27454.778,"end":27480.641,"text":"我不是不跟你說道理啊,我是跟你說道理的。今天我也是當主席啦,否決我們的公聽會提案啊。是嘛。而且這個東西不是...我說真的今天我今天提出這修正動議,其實我跟你講行政機關更喜歡啦。不然你說堅持原本的那個...錯!錯!錯!錯!錯!錯!錯!錯!不是只有他們喜歡,我也喜歡。放錯地方。"},{"start":27482.242,"end":27482.402,"text":"判決判決"},{"start":27507.745,"end":27529.514,"text":"你不是要表決?我不知道啊,因為剛剛你不是說要表決?過去例子很多啦沒有必要這樣子堅持啦就沒有必要堅持啊"},{"start":27535.347,"end":27535.948,"text":"莊瑞雄委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具"},{"start":27582.999,"end":27601.181,"text":"因為我跟你講這個例子很多,那如果我們說這樣錯,那不是以前所有人都錯了嗎?就是請你收回成名就好了,對不對,也不為難啦,我們沒有勉強,會議到這裡就結束了。好啦,那這樣啦齁,就是,好,那個,這樣啦齁。"},{"start":27602.594,"end":27625.678,"text":"所以眾委員是蠻堅持的沒關係啦,那這樣好了啦,我想說既然如果說大家堅持這樣,那我就順...大家...因為這個只是多簽一次名的動作因為我剛剛其實很簡單,因為這個網歷非常多,意識人員說也沒問題就是附帶決議併的保留嘛,那我就想說那就併保留讓大家一起看嘛"},{"start":27627.193,"end":27628.934,"text":"案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":27656.874,"end":27657.134,"text":"判決判決案件"},{"start":27674.841,"end":27674.861,"text":"案。"},{"start":27698.094,"end":27723.714,"text":"案。我們本案諸條審查已經處理完畢,我們做以下的宣告。本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提請院會公決。本案須交由黨團協商。院會討論的時候,由吳昭吉委員中線出席說明。條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理。議程"},{"start":27727.398,"end":27727.418,"text":"案 。"},{"start":27809.002,"end":27809.514,"text":"案）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"}]}},{"id":"156626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0543415fd2149113f5f97a8e48596ca3d6d49abb098bcc0bca97d6d5c14b1ef24585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"13:12:05 - 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Google關鍵字查得到啊Google需要花你多少時間需要多少多少回答啊"},{"start":196.26,"end":221.89,"text":"我想網站查你當然很快啦對啊那為什麼你們會查不到那你們如果說查不到你請事務發布透過一些程式方式屏蔽可不可以可不可以根本也不好這兩部分你剛才講的這部分也許我們我們必須有在立案偵查因為是個案的方式我這個不是很清楚但是如果說個案當然你不清楚嘛我現在講的是說隨便都搜得到嘛我覺得我光跟事務發布光跟檢討講話我就覺得難怪這個毒品會這麼氾濫的嘛"},{"start":225.911,"end":235.9,"text":"一個書發布說不管我的事你們連透過你們的網路技術去防避你都覺得跟你無關另外警政署說哎呀我們今天很辛苦了啦然後自己又承認說啊Google當然很容易啊"},{"start":236.84,"end":251.726,"text":"你們兩個機關到底知道你們在講什麼嗎?你們到底知道在講什麼嗎?好 繼續 我們繼續來看我們其實實際上是編了很多的防毒的預算總共分三期第一期編了100億第二期150億我們現在正要編第三期150億這是你們的預算分配啦其中我們的"},{"start":259.366,"end":275.28,"text":"防毒的預算大概超過一半都是用在戒毒那在驗毒的部分大概只編了7.69而已啊只編了7.69那最誇張是什麼呢請問一下警政署你們現在有沒有在買脫民衣紙的快篩試劑有沒有"},{"start":276.688,"end":301.595,"text":"目前我們已經有配花九千七百七九千七嘛對不對對然後你覺得夠嗎當然這個後期我們會你覺得夠嗎你覺得夠嗎目前在數量上當然還有在不足但是對好那請教一下現在不夠的原因是因為你你覺得太貴沒有經費還是你買不到跟委員報告因為一脫名職累生也是進來的事那第一期所以是買不到是不是不是買不到因為還是沒有經費"},{"start":303.479,"end":328.866,"text":"在第一章 本來這個驗毒的經費都地方在編列啦地方編列所以又退給地方那地方經費夠不夠你有去問嗎因為這是新增的業務啊事實上我們在今年啦我們在年底我們最近也剛撥了一筆經費給地方要他們來購買這一些相關的那所以會跟你們警政署無關的是地方的事沒有沒有 這個我們已經警政署編列一下才資源給地方我跟您報告喔九千七根本就不夠啦"},{"start":330.165,"end":357.3,"text":"很多地方的派出所只分到一支啦那一支他不敢用啦因為只有一支啦政局之寶啦不敢用啦我們總共有一千六百多個派出所你如果加偵查隊加上各個寶大你覺得夠嗎一個地方可能就分到三四支一個晚上就用完了啦他不敢用啦所以你們告訴我們說你們要棄毒連這個四季都不夠你棄什麼毒啦這個要怎麼去解決"},{"start":361.184,"end":389.212,"text":"報告委員、警政署這邊補充報告剛剛陳委員這邊垂詢我們現在目前針對已經採購9000多劑的部分我們在追加現在目前採購一萬多一萬兩千一萬兩千還是不夠嘛我剛剛就跟你講嘛九千七百劑的狀況之下有的派出所只有一劑啦那我們現在變兩劑我們現在有一萬六千四百劑也追加兩百三十幾萬還是不夠啦你現在是沒有錢還是買不到嘛我們有經費也有給有經費也買得到是不是那你不願意買是為什麼"},{"start":390.953,"end":400.448,"text":"請你們去補足好不好請你們去補足請你們去補足好 謝謝那另外這跟再不有關因為像是國教聯盟也有特別有提到有針對我剛剛講那個議題"},{"start":403.462,"end":425.934,"text":"就有提到就是說這個網路的監控力道根本不足法律雖然禁止網路的販售但是根本沒有嚴格的查緝機制因為今天在場所有官員部長你的位階最高只有你可能平常會跟行政院長開會請你把剛剛各單位他們回答我的問題的回答方式跟院長講一下好不好他們就是偷推來推去也不認為這是一件事"},{"start":427.205,"end":450.513,"text":"但是實際上今天來教育文化委員會是因為大家非常擔心校園會發生這個狀況可是各單位就是那個樣子你有看到嗎?所以請部長跟院長報告這個事情可以嗎?可以嗎?可以嗎?可以好 數八部說網路監控跟他無關警政署的事警政署說他已經很累了這些狀況跟他講喔第二個校園檢測跟執行也很困難傳統的檢測方法對電子煙也無效所以這個問題要怎麼解決?"},{"start":457.95,"end":484.266,"text":"我想我們確實現在目前在做就是比較就是一個從宣導到尿特殊學生的這個尿液篩檢然後到春葵莊就是說檢驗方式很困因為我的了解現在的校園就是針對傳統的菸的方式去檢測嘛我們在這個部我們我們對學生的一個人權有一定的因為教育單位我們必須要對每個學生的一個人權"},{"start":485.707,"end":503.321,"text":"所以這個部我們會跟這個衛福部還有這個警政署、法務部裡面我們會合作怎麼做嗎?怎麼做啊?這個怎麼做啊?這個國教行動聯盟意見也可能也不會只給我們嘛網路上看到應該也會給你們你們要怎麼做嗎?"},{"start":507.526,"end":534.292,"text":"我們為什麼受這個檢測就是說懷疑所裡面檢測然後剛才委員所提的有許多的那些檢測的試劑我們現在大概並沒有針對好你等一下去思考一下好不好看起來是沒準備啦檢測試劑如果你們能夠購買的話買一些啦好再來還有一個議題可能剛剛有些委員有問到就是移民署有通函給"},{"start":535.012,"end":557.998,"text":"外交部、勞動部、教育部所有一個美國的有性犯罪的前科的一個人已經入境了那就我的了解教育部好像也有發文給一些學校教育局透過教育局發文給一些學校幼兒園也有就是希望他們能夠知道有這個狀況然後如果要聘外師的話這個是高風險族群對吧你沒有做這個事吧但是我現在不解的也是一件事情"},{"start":559.598,"end":587.188,"text":"針對國外的這樣有性犯罪前科的人我們教育部可以做這個動作可是為什麼針對我們國內有性犯罪前科的人卻不能做這個動作舉例來講齁前一段時間有爆發一個幼兒園有一個毛性的這個老師性侵害了39個兒童嘛我特別去問了一些幼兒園的園長我說教育部有沒有通知你們說這個人有問題請你們以後不要有機會的話也要特別小心"},{"start":589.653,"end":602.604,"text":"你們總會撤交他的執照嗎?撤交執照讓他沒有辦法...讓他不能這樣做,但是有沒有只要一有類似的狀況就立刻同意?做任何的防避機制有沒有?"},{"start":603.621,"end":623.602,"text":"事實上如果有這個違反這個兒少或是性侵這些的案例我們事實上都會通報會通報是不是會通報會通報可是我問就沒有啊我問我問委員我就說他就我問他說欸那國外的有通報國內有通報嗎他說沒有啦國外的有啦所以國外的比較嚴重國內的比較不嚴重"},{"start":625.445,"end":643.795,"text":"這個問題我覺得非常奇怪第二個問題因為這個事情被媒體報導之後後來移民署就有接到很多記者的查證記者後來就直接公布了這個美國人他的長相、他的基本資料全部把它公布出來所以現在全台灣都知道他是誰了可是為什麼每一次只要是國內有發生這個狀況媒體都不敢報導"},{"start":647.076,"end":661.728,"text":"比如就要說某某幼兒園然後或者是某某毛姓老師甚至於什麼姓都不敢講為什麼台灣的媒體碰到這A4事件的時候都不能夠公布為什麼是因為被衛福部保護師恐嚇過還是怎樣衛福有來嗎為什麼為什麼國外的可以國內的不行"},{"start":670.25,"end":687.63,"text":"各位委員報告我是衛福部保護服務司那有關於那個兒犬法是有規定69條是有規定是針對兒少的個資是不能公佈的所以可以負向的行為是就是如果兒童的行為可以但為什麼上一次所有媒體都不敢公佈那位狼屍的資料為什麼"},{"start":689.5,"end":712.297,"text":"可能是媒體比較擔心沒有媒體講說都不敢啊因為私下你們都會跟他說不行啊你們公開講都說可以但是他們私下接受的訊息都是不可以所以他們不敢公布啊那你現在公開呼籲說以後大家所有的媒體都可以比照好不好只要有發生類似事件不管是國外國內有媒體查證我們一律可以公布他的全部的資料給國人警惕這樣可以嗎"},{"start":713.058,"end":742.258,"text":"各位委員報告因為這件事情後來我們其實有做了一個跟媒體的單位有做一些討論那我們未來會做一個媒體的會編提供給媒體因為我們最主要是之前最主要在法裡面是規定不能公告的是兒少的個資但是可能在公告兒少個資的時候可能會影射去可能在這個公告這個加害人的時候可能會影射到這個兒少那為了讓大家在報導上可以比較周全所以我們未來會做一個會議"},{"start":743.118,"end":743.599,"text":"葉元之委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1181,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時59分）麻煩請教育部、衛福部、法務部、警政署和數發部。"],["主席：以上5位，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我們今天討論電子煙，剛剛也有很多委員提到，現在很多毒品透過電子煙的形式，讓大家可以用這個方式來吸毒，特別是一個叫依托咪酯的新興毒品，這個毒品現在大家都非常關注。為什麼呢？因為光是三個月內，就有兩位警察因為他人毒駕的關係而不幸殉職，大家都非常難過，但我們發現針對這個新興的毒品，現在政府的管制還是非常的遲緩，這個毒非常的恐怖，為什麼它叫做喪屍煙彈或喪屍毒呢？是因為吸了之後就會跟殭屍一樣，會失去知覺，這麼恐怖！照道理來講，我們政府單位應該要想辦法針對這個毒品的販售全面來防避嘛！可是你知道它有多氾濫嗎？我給各位在場所有官員看一下，我們隨便在網路上都找得到耶！這是在臉書，你只要隨便google關鍵字比如它的學名或者是中文「依托咪酯」，就會看到有人在賣；這樣就算了，還有社團！有一個公開社團專門在討論這個依托咪酯，甚至討論怎麼交易。他們用什麼方式交易呢？我跟你講多誇張好不好？這是另外在臉書上查到的，你如果去跟他對話，我的助理去跟他對話，問他要怎麼買，他問在哪個地區，回說在臺北市，問「可以面交嗎？」回答是「可以啊」！我們現在的臺北市──首都居然可以面交去買毒品！我先問數發部，數發部是司長列席是不是？你們對於網路的控管到底是怎麼樣？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，這涉及刑事案件，是警政署在處理。"],["葉委員元之：所以不關你們數發部的事？"],["牛司長信仁：不是，因為這是……"],["葉委員元之：這是網路耶！大家對於數發部的期待，都是希望針對網路上的……尤其是犯罪行為，數發部能用你們的網路技術來防避，結果你居然說這是警政署的事！好，謝謝數發部，我知道你們的態度了。那就請問警政署，數發部說是你們的事，是你們辦事不力，所以網路社團才出現這個狀況。這個你可以接受嗎？"],["陳副局長炯旭：報告委員，在網路查緝這塊，我們也是投了很多心力，我們也有人專門在網路巡查，如果這部分有這些信息，我們都會立案。"],["葉委員元之：Google關鍵字查得到耶！google一下需要花你多少時間？需要多少時間？回答啊！"],["陳副局長炯旭：我想網站查詢當然很快。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！那為什麼你們會查不到？你們如果查不到，請數發部透過一些程式方式去屏蔽，可不可以？"],["陳副局長炯旭：跟委員報告，這是兩部分，你剛才講的這部分也許我們地區有在立案偵查，因為是個案，我不是很清楚，但是如果有查到……"],["葉委員元之：個案你當然不清楚，我現在講的是說網上隨便都搜得到嘛！我光跟數發部、跟警政署講話，就覺得難怪這個毒品會這麼氾濫了嘛！數發部說不關我的事，你們連透過你們的網路技術防避你都覺得跟你無關；警政署則說：「唉呦！我們已經很辛苦了啦」，然後自己又承認說google一下當然很容易啊！你們兩個機關到底知道你們在講什麼嗎？你們到底知道在講什麼嗎？我們繼續來看，我們實際上編了很多的防毒預算，總共分三期，第一期編了100億元，第二期編150億元，我們現在正要編第三期的150億元，這是你們的預算分配，防毒預算中大概超過一半都是用在戒毒，在驗毒的部分大概只編了7.69%而已，最誇張的是什麼呢？請問一下警政署，你們現在有沒有在買依托咪酯的快篩試劑？有沒有？"],["陳副局長炯旭：目前我們已經有配發9,700劑。"],["葉委員元之：9,700嘛，對不對？你覺得夠嗎？"],["陳副局長炯旭：當然這個後續我們會……"],["葉委員元之：你覺得夠嗎？"],["陳副局長炯旭：目前在數量上當然還有些不足，但是我們實際的……"],["葉委員元之：請教一下，現在不夠的原因是因為覺得太貴、沒有經費，還是買不到？"],["陳副局長炯旭：跟委員報告，因為依托咪指列為三級是近來的事，那……"],["葉委員元之：所以是買不到是不是？"],["陳副局長炯旭：不是買不到。"],["葉委員元之：還是沒有經費？"],["陳副局長炯旭：這個驗毒的經費都是地方在編列……"],["葉委員元之：地方編列？所以又推給地方？地方的經費夠不夠你有去問嗎？因為這是新增的業務啊！"],["陳副局長炯旭：事實上我們在今年年底就是最近也剛撥了一筆經費給地方，要他們來購買這些相關的試劑。"],["葉委員元之：所以跟你們警政署無關了，是地方的事？"],["陳副局長炯旭：我們警政署已經編列預算來支援地方。"],["葉委員元之：我跟你報告，9,700劑根本就不夠，很多地方的派出所只分到一支，那一支他還不敢用，因為只有一支，鎮局之寶啊！所以不敢用。我們總共有一千六百多個派出所，如果加上偵查隊再加上各個保大，你覺得夠嗎？一個地方可能就分到三、四支，一個晚上就用完了，他都不敢用啊！所以你們告訴我們說你們要緝毒，連試劑都不夠，你緝什麼毒啦！這個要怎麼去解決？"],["劉副大隊長貞汝：報告委員，警政署這邊補充報告。誠如委員垂詢，針對目前已經採購九千多劑的部分，我們現在再追加，目前採購1萬2,000劑。"],["葉委員元之：1萬2,000劑還是不夠嘛！我剛剛跟你講了，採購9,700劑的狀況之下，有的派出所只有一劑啦！現在是變兩劑。"],["劉副大隊長貞汝：我們現在有1萬6,400劑，也追加二百三十幾萬。"],["葉委員元之：還是不夠啦！你們現在是沒有錢還是買不到？"],["劉副大隊長貞汝：我們有經費也有給地方……"],["葉委員元之：有經費也買得到，是不是？那你不願意買是為什麼？"],["劉副大隊長貞汝：不是，地方這邊……"],["葉委員元之：請你們去補足好不好？"],["劉副大隊長貞汝：是，這個有補助。"],["葉委員元之：請你們去補足。謝謝！"],["劉副大隊長貞汝：是！是！是！"],["葉委員元之：另外一點跟教育部有關，針對我剛剛講的那個議題，國教聯盟也特別提到，網路的監控力道根本不足，法律雖然禁止網路的販售，但是根本沒有嚴格的查緝機制。因為部長是今天在場所有官員中位階最高的，只有你平常可能會跟行政院長開會，所以請你把剛剛各單位針對我所提問題的回答方式跟院長講一下，好不好？他們就是推來推去，也不認為這是一件事啦！但是實際上我們今天來教育及文化委員會是因為大家非常擔心校園會發生這個狀況，可是各單位就是那個樣子，你有看到嘛！所以請部長跟院長報告這個事情，可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["葉委員元之：數發部說網路監控跟他無關，是警政署的事；警政署說他已經很累了。以上這些狀況要跟他講喔！","國教聯盟的第二個意見是校園檢測跟執行也很困難，傳統的檢測方法對電子煙也無效，所以這個問題要怎麼解決？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實我們目前比較在做的，就是從宣導到特殊學生的尿液篩檢然後到春暉專案……"],["葉委員元之：就是檢驗方式很困難嘛！因為據我的瞭解，現在校園就是針對傳統菸的方式去檢測嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：在這個部分，因為是教育單位，我們必須要對每個學生的人權有一定的尊重，所以對這個部分，我們會跟衛福部還有警政署、法務部合作。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼做嘛？到底這個要怎麼做啊？國教行動聯盟的意見不會只給我們嘛！網路上看得到，應該也會給你們，你們要怎麼做嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在看到的這個檢測，就是說環醫所裡邊的檢測，剛才委員所提的有許多檢測的試劑，我們現在大概並沒有針對特別……"],["葉委員元之：好，OK，你再去思考一下好不好？看起來是沒準備啦！檢驗試劑如果你們能夠購買的話也買一些啦。","再來還有一個議題，可能剛剛有些委員有問到，就是移民署有通函給外交部、勞動部、教育部說有一個有性犯罪前科的美國人已經入境了，據我的瞭解，教育部好像也有發文給教育局，透過教育局發文給一些學校、幼兒園，希望他們能夠知道有這個狀況，如果要聘外師的話，這個是高風險族群，對吧？你們有做這個事吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：我現在不解的一件事是針對國外這樣有性犯罪前科的人，我們教育部可以做這個動作，可是為什麼針對我們國內有性犯罪前科的人卻不能做這個動作？舉例來講，前一段時間爆發了一家幼兒園有一個毛姓老師性侵害了39個兒童的事件，我特別去問了一些幼兒園的園長，問他們教育部有沒有通知你們說這個人有問題，請你們以後有機會的話也要特別小心。你們可能會撤銷他的執照，讓他沒有辦法這樣做，但是有沒有只要一有類似的狀況就立刻通報，有沒有做任何的防弊機制？"],["鄭部長英耀：如果有違反兒少或是性侵這些案例，我們事實上都會通報。"],["葉委員元之：會通報是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：會通報。"],["葉委員元之：可是我問了就沒有啊！我問幼兒園說國外的有通報，那國內的有通報嗎，他說：沒有啦！國外的有啦！所以是國外的比較嚴重，國內的比較不嚴重？這個問題我覺得非常奇怪。第二個問題，因為這個事情被媒體報導出來，之後移民署就接到很多記者的查證，記者後來就直接公布了這個美國人的長相、基本資料等，全部把它公布出來，所以現在全臺灣都知道他是誰了。可是為什麼每一次只要是國內有發生這個狀況，媒體都不敢報導？就要說「某某幼兒園」或者是「某某毛姓老師」，甚至於什麼姓都不敢講，為什麼臺灣的媒體碰到類似事件的時候都不能夠公布？為什麼？是因為被衛福部保護司恐嚇過還是怎樣？衛福部有人列席嗎？為什麼國外的可以國內的不行？"],["黃科長瑞雯：跟委員報告，我是衛福部保護服務司科長，兒權法第六十九條有規定針對兒少的個資是不能公布的，負向的行為是……"],["葉委員元之：所以負向行為可以？但上一次所有媒體都不敢公布那位狼師的資料，為什麼？"],["黃科長瑞雯：可能是媒體比較擔心……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，媒體說都不敢，因為你們私下都會跟他說不行啊！你們公開講都說可以，但是他們私下接到的訊息都是不可以，所以他們不敢公布，那你現在公開呼籲說以後所有的媒體都可以比照，好不好？只要有發生類似事件，不管是國外國內，有媒體查證，一律可以公布他的全部資料給國人警惕，這樣可以嗎？"],["黃科長瑞雯：跟委員報告，因為這件事情後來我們其實也有跟媒體的單位做了一些討論，我們未來會做一個媒體的彙編提供給媒體，最主要是因為依法規定是不能公告兒少的個資，但是在公告這個加害人的時候可能會影射到這個兒少，為了讓大家在報導上可以比較周全，所以我們未來會做一個彙編。"],["葉委員元之：會彙編是不是？什麼時候會出來？"],["黃科長瑞雯：下個月應該會出來。"],["葉委員元之：下個月？這個事情都發生多久了！"],["黃科長瑞雯：因為我們是找媒體單位還有相關的兒少代表來一起討論。"],["葉委員元之：OK！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","接下來我們有請莊瑞雄委員質詢，時間4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0542f9482533749645197a8e48596ca3d6dfaa9d9f880c8c938062fd125beb3cbaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:52:52 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來國憲署請教一下電子煙透過網路銷售你們報告說網路上看到的所謂的電子糖果也可能是假冒的電子煙上次業態也是如此那目前在網路平台上所查售查獲的銷售的違禁品你們是裁罰平台裁罰賣家還是都罰都罰"},{"start":86.4,"end":90.264,"text":"賣家草目前我們確實比較困難但是跟委員報告賣家我們現在採除了115件來我們看看跟你講一個過程來很快的"},{"start":105.646,"end":130.943,"text":"通常呢,賣違禁品他找到人頭在電商平台,被抓到就裁罰平台但是呢,如果這個人頭也被裁罰的話呢他就再換個人頭,就有無限的循環其實呢,最困難的是什麼你裁罰平台,可能但是你要裁罰到人頭因為有的人是持售出借或者他宣稱被盜用,我們可能看下一頁其實呢,上市有沒有可能循這個方式銷售呃,陳副局長,刑事警察局有沒有可能會不會用這個電商平台銷售"},{"start":136.409,"end":163.377,"text":"我想他包裝的形式很多,這個我們也不太清楚那請問一下檢法務部司長出借平台帳號販售違禁煙品有沒有什麼法律責任到目前為止可能幫助犯的部分還可以用得上那這個可能要個案來...OK,出借平台其實遇到的法律制裁相對的風險低往下看所以我們看一下電商平台,請問牛司長是不是要落實KYC"},{"start":164.469,"end":190.438,"text":"這部分我們素產署正在處理當中那我等一下請素產署好來我繼續講目前我們素產署第三方支付的時候它可以自願加入能量登錄但是如果你不加入你就沒辦法用洗防法來約束它因此如果它加入你可以落實KYCKYC說你出現人頭你就不能推脫但是它如果不加入你不能確定它是被盜用所以被抓到的話它都宣稱說我是被盜用署長副署長是不是這樣子"},{"start":194.248,"end":197.122,"text":"目前是要求都是要用實名的方式。謝謝。"},{"start":198.194,"end":218.867,"text":"目前要求對阿拉伯能量登錄事實上差很多往下看什麼意思呢詐騙券他有三種方法他不用進入你的三方支付比如說我在7月4號就問過了他用條碼現金掃條碼去換什麼虛擬貨幣或他用外國信用卡我在10月26號問過財政委員會或者說他透過直播主他去買點數他用遊戲點數來充當賣給直播主其實這個過程都查不到您知道嗎"},{"start":225.52,"end":252.201,"text":"你都查不到嗎?你查不到路徑嗎?那請問司長,那個法務部的司長,查不到路徑你能夠罰嗎?因為我們個案上找不到真正的被告,那就...是的,所以找不到嘛,所以就遏止不了往下看。所以呢,我在10月7號的時候問過我們部長,部長說,欸,我們在平台上無法追蹤的這個教育用洗髮法納管,你支持點數也要納管嗎?你問司長,那時候部長是不是都支持?"},{"start":253.381,"end":253.521,"text":"副主長"},{"start":275.496,"end":292.771,"text":"因為時間的關係你講不出來我告訴你今天為什麼我的重點要讓部長知道讓正部長知道因為現在透過很多網路上下一頁我們用遊戲點數用其他的方式主管機關如果不能要求電商平台達到所有的都要納管KYC金流的部分"},{"start":293.291,"end":319.799,"text":"平台沒有讓你管KYC你就是在家中裁罰平台這些人頭還是很容易找到啦他也不用去繳交犯罪所得所以 最後一頁好 我們往下看齁 最後一頁齁所以呢 電商平台販售的這個鼻息棒政務長最後一題問你齁你知道有個鼻息棒嗎現在學生可以去買鼻息棒喔它是電子煙的替代品有沒有聽過沒有聽過署長彭署長 你有沒有聽過鼻息棒"},{"start":321.951,"end":329.855,"text":"請教育部要嚴防學生現在如果沒有電子煙他們就用這個方式取代最後我的結論主席站起來了是不是請我們在座包括我們的政部長包括我們的訴發署"},{"start":343.503,"end":354.29,"text":"法務部透過人頭於網路平台上洗錢及電商平台販售違禁品有效溯源去溯源犯罪者以點數教育者一同用這個方案提出出面報告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1143,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時53分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請鄭部長、法務部郭司長、數發部牛司長、國健署賈副署長，以及刑事警察局的陳副局長。"],["主席：好，謝謝，以上5位。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。不好意思！因為今天你的部分比較少，我就簡單地說，今天我們在講電子煙，你知道喪屍煙彈就是所謂的依托咪酯，事實上，它是放在電子煙裡面吸食的，這個你大概知道吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那請問國健署副署長，如果我們把喪屍煙彈從三級毒品改為二級毒品，你是否支持？什麼叫做二級毒品？二級毒品就是安非他命、大麻和搖頭丸；三級毒品是K他命。你覺得喪屍煙彈有沒有到二級毒品那麼嚴重？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們尊重法務部的決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，法務部覺得呢？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，我們將在下個禮拜的11月14日召開審議委員會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果通過就會改列？"],["郭司長永發：通過後就變成二級。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。部長，謝謝您！待會你看螢幕就可以了，我繼續問其他人。國健署，請教一下，電子煙透過網路銷售，你們的報告說網路上看到的電子糖果也可能是假冒的電子煙，喪屍煙彈也是如此，目前網路平臺上所查獲到銷售的違禁品，你們是裁罰平臺？還是賣家？還是都罰？"],["賈副署長淑麗：都罰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都罰，那賣家找得到嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：目前要找到賣家確實比較困難，但是跟委員報告，賣家的部分我們目前裁處了155件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。繼續請牛司長，我們看看，我跟你講一個過程，來，很快的。通常賣違禁品的會先找人頭，在電商平臺被抓到就裁罰平臺，但是如果這個人頭也被裁罰的話，他就再換個人頭，然後就能無限地循環。其實最困難的是什麼？你可能可以裁罰到平臺，但是你要裁罰到人頭，因為有的人是售出或出借帳號，或是他宣稱是被盜用。其實喪屍煙彈有沒有可能循著這個方式銷售？刑事警察局陳副局長，有沒有可能？他們會不會用電商平臺來銷售？"],["陳副局長炯旭：它包裝的形式很多，這個我們也不敢說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能嘛！那請問一下，請問法務部司長，出借平臺帳號販售違禁菸品有沒有什麼法律責任？"],["郭司長永發：到目前為止，幫助犯的部分可能還用得上，這個可能要視個案來審酌。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK！出借平臺遇到的法律制裁相對風險較低，所以我們看一下，請問牛司長，電商平臺是不是要落實KYC？"],["牛司長信仁：這部分我們數產署正在處理當中，我等一下請數產署。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我繼續講。目前數產署的第三方支付可以自願加入能量登錄，但是他如果不加入，你就不能用洗防法來約束他，如果他加入，你可以落實KYC。KYC就是如果出借人頭，就不能推脫。但是如果他不加入，你不確定他是不是被盜用，所以他被抓到後，他都宣稱他是被盜用，副署長是不是這樣子？"],["陳副署長慧敏：目前我們都要求要用實名的方式，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前都要求要用實名登錄，事實上這差很多，往下看，什麼意思呢？詐騙集團有3種方法不用進入你們的三方支付，譬如我在7月4日就問過了，它可以用條碼，用現金掃條碼去換虛擬貨幣；或是它用外國信用卡，這個我10月26日在財政委員會問過；或是它透過直播主去買點數，它用遊戲點數來充當賣給直播主。其實這個過程都查不到，你知道嗎？這都查不到嘛！你查不到路徑嘛！那請問法務部司長，查不到路徑你能夠罰嗎？"],["郭司長永發：因為個案上找不到真正的被告，那就沒辦法處罰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，找不到，所以就遏止不了。所以我10月7日的時候問過部長，部長說我們在平臺上無法追蹤到這個交易，所以無法用洗防法來納管，我問他你支持點數也要納管嗎？牛司長，部長那時候是不是都支持？"],["牛司長信仁：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那現在呢？現在說不需要，你們不願意用洗防法來納管。7月4日我在司法及法制委員會再次問了一下，請數發部將電商業者涉及洗錢的固有風險納入洗防法來納管，結果你們的結論是不是說不要納管？是不是？副署長。","因為時間的關係，你講不出來，我告訴你，今天我的重要是要讓鄭部長知道，因為現在有很多是透過網路的遊戲點數或是其他的方式，如果主管機關不能要求電商平臺所有的金流都要納管KYC，平臺沒有納管KYC，就算是加重裁罰平臺，這些人頭還是很容易找到，他也不用繳交犯罪所得。所以電商平臺販售的鼻吸棒，鄭部長，最後一題問你，你知道鼻吸棒嗎？現在學生可以去買鼻吸棒，它是電子煙的替代品，你有沒有聽過？沒有聽過？署長？彭署長，你有沒有聽過鼻吸棒？鼻吸棒是能量棒。"],["彭署長富源：抱歉！它有不同的形式，這個用詞我不曉得，不好意思。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實這有很多都是中國製，沒有標示成分，它裡面有沒有含有害物質？請教育部要嚴防學生施用，如果現在沒有電子煙，他們就用這個方式來取代。","我最後的結論，主席站起來了，是不是請在座，包括鄭部長、數發部、法務部，研議「透過人頭於網路平臺上洗錢及電商平臺販售違禁品得有效溯源犯罪者，以點數交易者亦同」之方案，請1個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？數發部？可以。好，法務部司長？"],["郭司長永發：我們可以協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以協助。教育部你們要認真的看這一本，看這一本就可以知道現在學生都是怎麼樣弄。"],["主席：鍾委員，因為時間到了，不好意思。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。謝謝主席和各位。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，各位請回座，不好意思，我們2點還有一個法案協商，不好意思。","接下來有請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來有請葉元之委員質詢，時間8加2。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156623","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054dee0029b579ad4da97a8e48596ca3d6dfaa9d9f880c8c938dd4df15546ecd50f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:47:54 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對不對"},{"start":66.091,"end":94.043,"text":"可是今天呢我們看教育部的報告就會發現其實你們行之有年的計畫裡面的都是要各校訂定煙防計畫擬定流程那包含這裡面都是說怎麼樣增能老師對不對怎麼樣輔導老師甚至希望他們去發展教材所以我在想說在教師已經過勞行政工作過量的情況下那再加給他們這麼多的工作會不會繼續"},{"start":95.484,"end":96.085,"text":"校園危害防制實施計畫分工表"},{"start":112.867,"end":126.188,"text":"那教育部指示有以下任務需要完成前面包含就是擬定煙害防制政策後面戒煙教育策略主辦單位部長應該很了解都是各級學校"},{"start":127.366,"end":145.164,"text":"那如果都是各級學校學校又去叫老師教育部又鼓勵老師開發教材然後怎麼樣的話那會不會只是加重老師的負擔然後老師的負擔然後收到教育部的各種指示已經非常多了那其實就沒有辦法效果很好"},{"start":146.325,"end":162.721,"text":"那我想我這邊這個PPT好像有點狀況那我這邊準備了一個教育部防制學生的毒物濫用的實施計畫我比照了一下發現非常的不一樣在那個計畫裡面一個是教育部統籌協調學校只要負責執行跟通報"},{"start":166.064,"end":180.32,"text":"那另外一個呢那也就是說是地方教育局處會協助不是學校自己要全權主辦那另外一個就是你們的毒物濫用的防制實施計畫裡面會清楚的指出哪個單位要做什麼"},{"start":181.021,"end":181.621,"text":"可否參考校園防毒嚴寧你們的校園煙防計畫的2.0"},{"start":207.214,"end":218.934,"text":"就是重新去思考那個分工然後考量老師已經過勞行政工作已經無法減量的情況下有一個新的據說評估新的可能性"},{"start":220.805,"end":239.122,"text":"謝謝委員提醒確實我們也一直在努力我們希望老師不要再做太多的一些非等於說跟他教學專業無關的事情也希望能夠在行政能夠減量這都是我們在努力的那剛才跟委員報告我們這裡邊的許多的課程教材"},{"start":239.862,"end":256.179,"text":"煙毒的一些防制包括電子煙事實上國建署已經有開發不同教育階段的這些的教材我們本來也就都可以來鼓勵老師在這一個裡面現有的來使用那當然有部分的學校裡面"},{"start":256.9,"end":278.502,"text":"因地制宜 包含也不是每一個科目的老師他都要去開發這個教材我們譬如說輔導老師專任他的一個這個輔導的課程班級輔導的一些課程或者生涯發展的課程他怎麼樣去協助學生有更多的的這些陰害防制的這些我想這我們並不是每一個科目的老師都要去教"},{"start":278.962,"end":307.434,"text":"但是我們有義務讓老師知道我們面臨的教學上的挑戰的一些許多電子煙的各式各樣的因為時間的緣故沒有辦法讓你再繼續講那我想做的事情就是教育部可以承諾一下去評估有沒有可能就是讓分工然後不要由學校再來主辦這個校園防制計畫然後是能夠由教育部主辦然後能夠讓地方教育局處的角色也更清楚呢"},{"start":307.694,"end":319.76,"text":"我想謝謝委員提醒我們怎麼樣在行政減量我們去規範沿著跟地方來合作看怎麼樣來讓這一個煙毒的防制能夠真正的落實而不增加老師"},{"start":322.722,"end":324.063,"text":"高檢署公佈毒品的情況尤其是所謂的彩虹煙"},{"start":345.552,"end":345.772,"text":"執行部長"},{"start":372.024,"end":379.013,"text":"您打算怎麼回應這個毒品使用年輕化的趨勢呢?年輕化其實就是在國教的範圍內部長有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":389.929,"end":412.001,"text":"我想加強先導這是一定要的那第二個就是我們在源頭裡面怎麼樣去跨部會來阻斷那第三個當然我們老師其實我們現場老師也都累積很多的經驗他會看到學生的學習的這些行為然後怎麼樣去做適度的一些協助那你認為這個源頭是什麼就是這個校園毒品的源頭在哪裡"},{"start":421.499,"end":432.127,"text":"我想這個來自於這個一般就是有利可圖﹖一定有人有利可圖﹖他們是怎麼樣讓圖品可以進入校園的"},{"start":436.6,"end":458.348,"text":"我相信這也是我們看到這一個行政院最近在努力在打詐、防詐、防毒、嚴毒等等的這些系列性的我相信這一個從這一個不良幫派的那一些系統當然也是一個進入校園的一個可能的因素那不良幫派已經事實上是教育部已經沒有辦法處理了對不對"},{"start":458.948,"end":458.968,"text":"打詐資訊"},{"start":489.449,"end":500.259,"text":"為什麼找中離生因為他們不受學校特定人員的驗尿之拘束那因此比較不容易發生中離生作為媒介讀品才能進校園為什麼中離生有那個網絡他會認識學校的同學"},{"start":505.443,"end":530.618,"text":"所以如果你直接認為曝險學生是毒品來源那可是這個部分就是說我們要更精確的是哪些學生那中離生至少是我們在相關的研究中看到的第一個的所謂的源頭外界有利可圖當然是大家找誰是中離生那另外就是他找了中離生之後校園中根據警察大學的教授的研究"},{"start":531.178,"end":548.858,"text":"他其實是找就是個案在校生活適應不良的學生因為他是屬於低自我控制的特徵他才基本上對毒品的一個抗拒力比較低而且毒品可能能夠去讓他去麻痹他生活中的不舒服"},{"start":549.278,"end":549.298,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":579.801,"end":601.876,"text":"教育部能否重新評估分工表,思考研議校園煙防計畫2.0,讓主辦不要繼續是學校,完善中離生、暴險學生追蹤系統,找出有效協助,校園吸毒,青少年的方式才能防範未然。"},{"start":609.461,"end":631.814,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒,確實中離生或者部選學生他可能是一個中介,但是他不必然,我也不希望把他變成一個刻板印象,但是從那個源頭去追,這是我們一定要來努力的。至少有嚴謹的學術研究,在我們有更好的答案前,我們應該要更了解,好不好?那部長多久內可以給我這個報告呢?"},{"start":634.343,"end":634.403,"text":"范雲昭偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1094,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時37分）感謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長早安。我想今天主要除了想跟您討論為什麼菸害防制到現在都沒有成功，另外還有關於曝險少年為什麼會接觸毒品的問題。","之前我其實就有開過記者會，記者會上有談到有五大原因，包含我這邊所講的加給過低，最重要的就是教學兼行政導致過勞的問題。過勞問題其實我上次是跟教師工會或是代理教師工會一起討論的，結果過勞的問題教育部也非常了解，你們正在行政部分上怎麼樣支持他們，對不對？可是今天我們看教育部的報告就會發現，其實你們行之有年的計畫裡面都是要各校訂定菸防計畫、擬定流程，包含這裡面都是說怎麼樣增能老師，對不對？怎麼樣輔導老師、甚至希望他們去發展教材。在教師已經過勞、行政工作過量的情況下再加給他們這麼多的工作，會不會繼續效果不彰？有沒有可能比照就是……我們先來看一下教育部的計畫，我們把你們的計畫拿來看的話會發現，你看我這邊呈現的，這是教育部去年發布的校園菸害防制實施計畫分工表，教育部指示有以下任務需要完成，前面包含擬定菸害防制政策、後面戒菸教育策略，主辦單位部長應該很了解都是各級學校，如果都是各級學校，學校又去叫老師做，而教育部又鼓勵老師開發教材怎麼樣的話，那會不會只是加重老師的負擔？老師收到教育部各種指示的負擔已經非常多了，其實就沒辦法效果很好。","我這邊這個PPT好像有點狀況，我準備了一個教育部防制學生毒物濫用實施計畫，我比照一下發現非常不一樣，在那個計畫裡面，一個是教育部統籌協調，學校只要負責執行跟通報；另外一個是地方教育局處會協助，不是學校自己要全權主辦。另外一個就是你們的毒物濫用防制實施計畫裡面清楚地指出哪個單位要做什麼、單位跟單位之間如何互動。有沒有可能這個菸害防制計畫，包含電子煙及今天講到裡面甚至有毒品這個部分，可以由教育部來擬定政策，各校只要施行就好？我今天第一個建議就是請教育部回去評估一下，可不可以參考校園防毒，研擬你們的校園菸防計畫2.0？就是重新去思考那個分工，然後考量老師已經過勞、行政工作已經無法減量的情況下，能評估一個新的可能性？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，確實我們也一直在努力，希望老師不要再做太多跟他教學專業無關的事情，也希望行政能夠減量，這都是我們在努力的。剛才跟委員報告，這裡面有許多課程、教材都有菸（煙）毒相關的防制，包括電子煙，事實上，國健署已經有開發不同教育階段的教材，我們本來就有鼓勵老師可以使用現有的教材。當然，有部分的學校要因地制宜，包含也不是每一個科目的老師都要去開發這個教材，譬如專任輔導老師輔導的課程、班級，或是生涯發展的課程要怎麼樣去協助學生有菸害防制的觀念，這並不是每一個科目的老師都要去教，但是我們有義務讓老師知道我們所面臨的教學挑戰和電子煙各式各樣的樣態。"],["范委員雲：因為時間的緣故，我沒有辦法讓你再繼續講，我想做的事情是，教育部可以承諾一下會去評估可能的分工，不要再由學校來主辦這個校園防制計畫，能夠由教育部主辦，然後讓地方教育局處的角色也能更清楚。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，我們要怎麼樣在行政減量下來規範原則，和地方的合作，讓菸（煙）毒的防制能夠真正的落實，而不增加老師額外的負擔。"],["范委員雲：好，請你們去評估這個改善的可能性。因為我的PTT有一點狀況，我就直接用講的。再來我想跟部長討論毒品使用者年輕化的問題，根據公視的報導，其實我們在媒體中也常看到，高檢署公布毒品的情況，尤其是所謂的「彩虹菸」，事實上，這有向下的趨勢，現在學生施用新興毒品的年紀小到連國中生都有接獲相關的通報，而且警方研判有施用的黑數，特別是三級毒品彩虹菸合成卡西酮類的毒品，其實這個致死率滿高的。部長，你打算怎麼回應毒品使用年輕化的趨勢？年輕化就是在國教的範圍內，部長有沒有什麼想法？"],["鄭部長英耀：第一個，我想加強宣導是一定要的。第二個，源頭的部分我們要怎麼樣跨部會來阻斷？第三個，其實現場的老師都累積了很多經驗，他會視學生的學習行為來看要怎麼樣做適度的協助。"],["范委員雲：好，剛剛部長講得很好，那你認為這個源頭是什麼？校園毒品的源頭在哪裡？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這個來自有利可圖，就是外界廠商有利可圖。"],["范委員雲：一定有人有利有圖，可是他們是怎麼樣讓毒品進入校園的？"],["鄭部長英耀：我相信這也是行政院最近努力在打詐、防詐、防制菸（煙）毒等等系列性的作為，我相信從不良幫派系統進入校園也是可能的一個因素。"],["范委員雲：事實上，不良幫派教育部已經沒有辦法處理了，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：如果是打詐的資訊，你剛剛講到可以再增加宣導或老師，但事實上，如果我們不夠瞭解源頭的話，就找不到正確的解方。我的辦公室有做相關的研究和閱讀，我們覺得有些部分很需要跟教育部討論。根據中正大學犯罪所的研究發現，其實他們吸收販賣毒品的方式是找中離生，為什麼找中離生？因為他們不受學校特定人員驗尿之拘束，因此比較不容易被發現。他們以中離生為媒介，所以毒品才能夠進入校園，為什麼中離生有那個網絡？因為他認識學校的同學。如果你認為曝險學生是毒品的來源，這部分我們就要更精確地說是哪些學生，至少中離生是我們在相關研究裡所看到的第一個源頭。外界有利可圖當然是，但是他們是找誰？是中離生。","另外，他們找了中離生之後，根據警察大學教授的研究，其實他們在校園中是找個案在校生活適應不良的學生，因為他們擁有低自我控制的特徵。基本上，他們對毒品的抗拒力比較低，而且毒品可能可以麻痺他們生活中的不舒服、適應不良跟各種沒有辦法處理的壓力。如果這2個研究……我不知道教育部有沒有看過更切深的研究，我們現在的工作應該是要完善中離生跟曝險學生追蹤系統，從這2群人中找出有效的協助方式，這樣才能防患未然。","因為時間已經差不多，針對今天「煙」跟「毒」的問題，我有2個要求，第一個，教育部能不能夠重新評估這個分工表？思考、研議校園菸防計畫2.0，讓主辦不要再繼續是學校。第二個，完善中離生、曝險學生追蹤系統，找出有效協助校園吸毒青少年的方式，這樣才能防患未然，好不好？部長，這2個要求多久時間內可以給我報告呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實，中離生或是曝險學生可能是中介，但他們不必然是，我也不希望把它變成刻板印象。"],["范委員雲：當然是。"],["鄭部長英耀：但是從源頭去追，這是我們一定要來努力的。"],["范委員雲：好，至少要有嚴謹的學術研究，在我們有更好的答案前，我們應該要更瞭解，好不好？部長多久內可以給我這個報告呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們是不是可以在1個月內給委員一個方向？"],["范委員雲：可以，我想這個需要一點時間，就1個月，這2個都各給我一份報告，好不好？謝謝部長，一起加油！"],["主席：謝謝范雲召委。","接下來有請翁曉玲委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"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rx":[{"start":0.653,"end":1.297,"text":"昨天我們請部長謝謝有請林部長"},{"start":11.158,"end":30.051,"text":"部長今天國防外交委員會排這個主題當然就是因應美國選舉之後對台灣甚至兩岸的一個影響我們希望聽到是最真實的聲音而不是一直粉飾太平剛剛部長講說川普當選對台的關係完全不會有影響為什麼呢?因為你剛剛講說美國再次偉大不能沒有台灣這是你講的嘛"},{"start":36.835,"end":57.762,"text":"就是說美國如果沒有台灣的話就不能再次偉大那有了台灣才能再次偉大所以我們的角色非常重要但我不知道部長講這個話是根據什麼我這邊也有看了一些外媒報導紐約時報他就說川普重新回到白宮開啟了一個非常不確定的時代"},{"start":58.782,"end":79.36,"text":"就像他們都稍微有點懷疑說川普回去白宮之後對於整個國際局勢有什麼影響但是部長覺得沒什麼影響然後前兩天紐約時報沒有什麼影響你剛講了嘛不能沒有台灣嘛然後第二個紐約時報也提到了就是說其實中國大陸那邊非常歡迎川普重返"},{"start":80.04,"end":97.487,"text":"白宮,兩個原因,第一個原因就是因為拜登之前都是在中國大陸附近的鄰國去結盟,所以讓他們感到很大的圍堵的壓力。第二個原因是,美威時報講的,說川普對於保護台灣其實沒有太大的興趣,而這一點中共是非常歡迎的。"},{"start":98.087,"end":99.99,"text":"其實從更高的層次來講就是說他抗中的力道更強啊"},{"start":116.567,"end":142.689,"text":"所以你只看對我們心安的部分我覺得這個大家都應該要料敵為重那如果說大家都粉飾太平的話那其實我們就通通大家都過太平日子也不需要來這邊報告如果講的都是不能夠這樣所以請問一下外交部針對我剛剛講的一些外媒的分析做了哪些因應的對策呢"},{"start":144.586,"end":170.522,"text":"對策喔?第一個就是說我們當然密切關注他的主張跟人事的佈局那因為他重視的議題啊我們的怎麼樣去跟他取得交集比如說他很重視投資美國創造就業然後他會用關稅的手段作為外交談判那這個時候他比較採取啊我是說針對可能會有風險的部分有做出哪些對策"},{"start":172.501,"end":173.882,"text":"川普官邪的議題我們要注釋。"},{"start":196.14,"end":196.9,"text":"為什麼突然間我們又不想要跟川普通電話是為什麼?"},{"start":219.525,"end":224.748,"text":"提前的我不清楚因為我那時候不是外交部長那為什麼現在就不想我沒有去投入說要去怎麼樣去安排這些啊但是川普總統最後怎麼樣做我們還是要一切觀察"},{"start":234.994,"end":235.134,"text":"就像委員講的"},{"start":254.539,"end":283.342,"text":"您說他不可預測性他上次用通電話這次會用什麼通電話是他要不要接是一回事因為上次是部長部長部長所以你認為不要重複做同一件事是不是這是雙方面那是我目前做外交部長但是問題是之前是我們的外交部運作去跟川普通電話我現在問的是外交部的立場這次為什麼沒有覺得要去運作這個事情為什麼你剛剛講說因為重複的事不想再做"},{"start":283.962,"end":291.205,"text":"蔡總統做的事情賴總統不需要再做你的意思是這樣嗎?不是我覺得台美單親有很多要做的事而且可以做的好當然很多事情都要做那通電話這個事情為什麼不做嘛我的問題這麼簡單為什麼都沒辦法回答勒?"},{"start":300.94,"end":302.201,"text":"最後問一下,川普明年就職的時候我們會派慶賀團過去嗎?"},{"start":324.355,"end":346.742,"text":"會,那大概成績是什麼?因為以前好像都是立法院長,好像有一次部長也有陪董嗎?對,2016年目前的規劃是怎樣?我們目前就是有幾種,就是說因為他現在才剛選完啦,那我們有在籌備所以我昨天也跟這個包括總統也報告過,我們現在這個未來會來籌備這個親和團"},{"start":349.804,"end":360.154,"text":"反正美國不管是川普當選或賀錦麗當選都會有一個美國總統當選嗎?你不需要等到誰當選之後才來籌備嗎?還是你會因人而異?你大概會派誰?是立法院長嗎?是會派立法院長代表區嗎?"},{"start":366.738,"end":382.172,"text":"因為之前有一次是由院長嘛所以這一次是韓國瑜院長會去嗎我們還在籌備當中那有沒有可能等確定再跟委員報告目前還沒有確定沒有確定因為是韓院長關係所以就比較難確定嘛不是不是跟院長是誰無關就對了無關無關好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1025,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時39分）主席好，麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好，今天外交及國防委員會排這個主題，當然就是因應美國選舉之後對臺灣甚至兩岸的影響，我們希望聽到的是最真實的聲音，而不是一直粉飾太平。剛剛部長講川普當選對臺的關係完全不會有影響，為什麼呢？"],["林部長佳龍：No，我沒有講完全不會有影響，我的報告怎麼會這樣寫？"],["葉委員元之：因為你剛剛講美國再次偉大，不能沒有臺灣，這是你講的嘛！就是說美國如果沒有臺灣的話，就不能再次偉大，有了臺灣才能再次偉大，所以我們的角色非常重要，但我不知道部長講這個話是根據什麼，我這邊也有看了一些外媒報導，紐約時報說川普重新回到白宮，開啟了一個非常不確定的時代，他們都稍微有點懷疑川普回去白宮之後，對於整個國際形勢有什麼影響，但是部長覺得沒什麼影響。然後前兩天紐約時報……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，我沒有說沒什麼影響。"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛講了嘛！不能沒有臺灣嘛！然後第二個，紐約時報也提到了，其實中國大陸那邊非常歡迎川普重返白宮，兩個原因，第一個原因，因為拜登之前都是在中國大陸附近的鄰國結盟，讓他們感到很大圍堵的壓力。","第二個原因，這是紐約時報講的，川普對於保護臺灣其實沒有太大的興趣，而這一點中共是非常歡迎的，所以我覺得像這樣一個局勢，我們……"],["林部長佳龍：剛剛梁文傑副主委有談到不是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，部長，請教一下，紐約時報這樣的分析您認同嗎？紐約時報這樣分析您認同嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：看你從哪個角度看啦！"],["葉委員元之：你認同嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，其實從更高的層次來講，就是他抗中的力道更強啊！這個對臺灣的安全，我們的重要性就更大了。"],["葉委員元之：所以你只看對我們心安的部分？我覺得大家都應該要料敵為重，如果大家都粉飾太平的話，其實我們就統統過太平日子，也不需要來這邊報告嘛！如果講的都是……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，不能夠這樣。"],["葉委員元之：所以請問一下外交部，針對我剛剛講的一些外媒的分析，做了哪些因應的對策呢？"],["林部長佳龍：對策喔！"],["葉委員元之：對啊！"],["林部長佳龍：第一個就是我們當然密切關注他的主張跟人事布局，因為他重視的議題，我們怎麼樣去跟他取得交集，比如他很重視投資美國、創造就業，然後他會用關稅的手段做為外交談判，這個時候他比較採取……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我是說針對可能會有風險的部分，有做出哪些對策？"],["林部長佳龍：風險？我覺得有風險也有機會啊！"],["葉委員元之：我在問風險嘛！機會就不用講了嘛！現在大家在監督，當然是希望你針對風險部分，所以完全沒有對策，好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：有啦！你不要這樣，你不要硬拗啦！"],["葉委員元之：那是什麼？那是什麼？那為什麼講不出來？"],["林部長佳龍：委員，你要給我幾分鐘，我就講幾分鐘。"],["葉委員元之：我們質詢時間很有限啦！真的沒辦法從盤古開天、女媧補天開始講啦！我的問題都很清楚……"],["林部長佳龍：對於川普關切的議題，我們都要注意，都要因應。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，沒關係，部長……什麼做法講不出來嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟他合作的空間……"],["葉委員元之：第二個，剛剛很多委員也都有問，因為蔡總統之前曾經有跟川普通過電話，當時說什麼透過川普的女婿，發揮很大的影響力，達到了不起的成就，現在為什麼忽然間我們又不想要跟川普通電話，是為什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：以前的我不清楚，因為我那時候不是外交部長……"],["葉委員元之：對，我知道，但為什麼現在就不想……"],["林部長佳龍：對我來講，我覺得臺美關係是要從整體來看，我沒有投入要去怎麼樣安排這些，而川普總統最後怎麼做，我們還是要密切觀察。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，那並不是川普打電話給蔡總統好不好？是臺灣的外交部去運作嘛！讓蔡總統去跟川普通電話嘛！我的問題是為什麼之前把這個通電話視為重大外交成就，但是現在卻不認為做這個事情很重要，為什麼？為什麼有這樣的轉變？"],["林部長佳龍：就像委員講的，你說他不可預測性，他上次用通電話，這次會用什麼，我們也是……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，通電話他要不要接是一回事，上次是……"],["林部長佳龍：因為第二次就是重複啦！"],["葉委員元之：部長，所以你認為不要重複做同一件事，是不是？你剛剛的意思是不是……"],["林部長佳龍：這是雙方面，我目前做外交部長，我沒有在做這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：好，但問題是之前是我們外交部運作去跟川普通電話，我現在問的是就外交部的立場，這次為什麼沒有覺得要去運作這個事情，為什麼？你剛剛講因為重複的事不想再做嘛！蔡總統做的事情，賴總統不需要再做，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是。"],["葉委員元之：那你在繞圈圈……"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得臺美關係很多要做的事，而且可以做得好，我覺得在這個方面……"],["葉委員元之：當然很多事情都要做，通電話這個事情為什麼不做，我的問題這麼簡單，為什麼都沒辦法回答呢？"],["林部長佳龍：不是，我已經回答你了嘛！"],["葉委員元之：你沒有回答，你是說還可以做別的事情。"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得媒體要操作成我們好像有求於人，結果不成或怎麼樣，我不想讓這個問題變成疑美論、疑賴論……"],["葉委員元之：不是媒體啦！我現在不管媒體啦！我現在不管媒體啦！部長，你不要閃避問題啦！你不要閃避問題好不好？最後問一下，川普明年就職的時候，我們會派慶賀團過去嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：會。"],["葉委員元之：大概層級是什麼？因為以前好像都是立法院長，好像有一次部長也有陪同嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對，2016年。"],["葉委員元之：請問這一次目前的規劃是怎樣？"],["林部長佳龍：我們目前就是有幾種，因為他現在才剛選完，我們有在籌備，所以我昨天包括也跟總統報告過，我們未來會來籌備這個慶賀團。"],["葉委員元之：反正美國不管是川普當選或賀錦麗當選，都會有一個美國總統當選，你不需要等到誰當選之後才來籌備，還是你會因人而異？川普當選，你大概會派誰？是立法院長嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：從選前到選後交接期間，我們都做好……"],["葉委員元之：是會派立法院長代表去嗎？因為之前好像有一次是游院長嘛！所以這一次是韓國瑜院長會去嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們還在籌備當中。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有可能？"],["林部長佳龍：等確定了再跟委員報告，目前還沒有確定。"],["葉委員元之：沒有確定，因為是韓院長的關係，所以就比較難確定嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不是。"],["葉委員元之：跟院長是誰無關就對了？"],["林部長佳龍：無關。"],["葉委員元之：無關，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，部長請回。","已登記質詢的委員，除了不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有陳永康委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054f188a7511a6e1eb6be9b0bd4ecc214d5faa9d9f880c8c93874ad0faf363c552f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:31:34 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怎麼做我只是勉勵您而已啦因為你們有一個邏輯上的問題啦那第二個我覺得就是很嚴肅的問題啦我們川普在競選總統的時候有一個很重要的政見跟台灣有關就是我們要交保護費吧"},{"start":155.834,"end":180.817,"text":"你知道吧他當選總統說要叫我們交保護費他那個詳細的文字不是說交保護費要GDP到10%啦那個時候有沒有講這個數字啊是在選舉的時候因為受訪的時候他又提到了因為那個數字也變來變去欸數字變來變去至少他今天提了這個數字嘛我看到就是新聞外媒報導說假的"},{"start":182.13,"end":191.872,"text":"那我就要問你啦那你一看到數據是多少?那黑幫都要收保護費啊那台灣當然也要交保護費啊"},{"start":192.742,"end":220.369,"text":"不是嗎因為他的副總統也有一些奏訪也有一些講話總統重要還是副總統重要都很重要都很重要總統說的為準那我想請問你要不要我跟你講部長因為川普講話這個調調我也不會把這個是責任全部放你身上可是我覺得外交部總有個責任跟川普新政府溝通一下你知道GDP百分之十四多少嗎部長你知道嗎那"},{"start":224.531,"end":243.545,"text":"在我們中央政府總預算是84%我們基本上如果真正照川普講的這個編到GDP10%的話政府大概就可以幾乎沒有事可以做啦所以這個地方抱歉我覺得就是外交部的責任啦溝通是你外交部的責任沒錯吧"},{"start":244.145,"end":257.337,"text":"對阿 我們會去溝通阿 因為事實上 第一個我們是在增加嘛 從過去到未來我要的你只有這句話嘛 這個坦白講我直接講你認為以這個數字來講是合理要求嗎不要講說啦齁 就是說這個數字是可以會說話嘛以這個數字是不是合理要求嘛"},{"start":266.872,"end":273.22,"text":"因為他講百分之幾其實這是一個期許但是百分之十如果要看你怎麼計算"},{"start":274.482,"end":275.943,"text":"那我跟委員講比如說灰色地帶的作戰海巡署"},{"start":305.083,"end":327.271,"text":"中共是海警船 它就是國防啊 那我們海巡署的預算也是國防啊部長我跟你講 你就算把這都算進去 你要到10% 你天差地遠我這樣說不過分吧 你把海巡署全部都算進去你把國安會什麼什麼全部都算進去 我告訴你 也一樣天差地遠把你外交部算進去都天差地遠 你相不相信"},{"start":328.22,"end":348.77,"text":"我跟委員報告,他的副總統最重要的,他們的幕僚也談過是5,所以這個數字變來變去所以你接受5%沒有啦,我的意思是說5也好10也好,這就是要增加,要展現我們自我防衛的決心,然後跟國防的能力基本上,因為我也在政府工作過"},{"start":349.909,"end":364.938,"text":"臺北關係我當然知道重要經營也困難所以你也發現我質詢你有沒有很為難你對不對可是我要講過去其實我們有跟美國有一些意見不合的時候至少我在政府服務的時候不要說太平島美國的意見跟我們中華民國立場就有點不一樣對不對沒錯吧"},{"start":368.602,"end":395.772,"text":"對,跟馬政府之後馬政府時候不一樣當時至少政府就用很勇敢的講出來說抱歉我跟你不一樣但是並不會今天你要站在一個尊嚴的基礎上跟隨美國溝通我同意當然嘛所以不合理的要講就像前面有最後講一點啦我覺得那個態度部長還是可以修正一下林玉婷的部分你不能跟洪某凱講說你問我我才講啊"},{"start":396.837,"end":399.498,"text":"沒有指名道姓,又沒有指名道姓的回應,不是嗎?就是要回應"},{"start":419.172,"end":435.788,"text":"所以我說你積極性差了一點點你如果說外交部可以主動回應那我告訴你那就是很能夠守住政府立場總而言之我今天的質詢只是跟部長講川普上來很多要溝通所以請外交部再好好加油努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":939,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時31分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：2016年川普第一次當選美國總統，蔡英文總統在12月2日跟川普越洋通話。當時我記得民進黨非常雀躍，說這是外交史上重大的突破。沒錯吧？"],["林部長佳龍：當時，對。"],["羅委員智強：當時，對嘛！還說「川蔡夠辣」，對不對？很多的溢美之詞不一一列舉。但是我聽到剛剛牛煦庭委員在質詢你的時候，問到會不會有川賴熱線，你看起來好像沒什麼把握，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：這是要由「川」來決定的。"],["羅委員智強：當然，照你的邏輯，你也可以講川蔡……"],["林部長佳龍：但是我們沒有要去促成……"],["羅委員智強：不是，我要講的是……"],["林部長佳龍：因為媒體有報導了，我就做點澄清。"],["羅委員智強：對，很好。"],["林部長佳龍：避免誤會。"],["羅委員智強：沒有，我跟你講，我不認為你要避免誤會，這個事情我覺得……當然你現在不能講我也可以體會，因為外交有些工作要低調，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：嗯。"],["羅委員智強：但是你不能一副好像無所謂的樣子。基本上，我是鼓勵你能夠比照蔡英文的時候去促成川賴熱線，這個鼓勵應該不為過吧？"],["林部長佳龍：其實外交關係的呈現有各種方式，我們不要限制在……"],["羅委員智強：部長，你這樣子講有一個很嚴……"],["林部長佳龍：尤其是媒體這樣子設定的時候，也容易變成引導到另外一個方向去。"],["羅委員智強：你會有一個很嚴重的邏輯問題，如果照你這樣講，川賴熱線沒那麼重要的話，當初川蔡熱線，那民進黨不就犯了一個邏輯上很大的問題嗎？你把它捧成好像是一個外交上的重大突破。我跟你講，抱歉喔！我會站在前面的民進黨那邊，所以這一點我是肯定蔡英文。對於蔡英文的肯定，我希望賴清德能夠做得到的，起碼做得跟蔡英文一樣嘛！這樣的一個期勉，外交部不能夠當作是有這個、沒這個都無所謂的感覺，我覺得這個態度不是辦外交的態度，可以吧？"],["林部長佳龍：當時是第一次，就已經發生過了。"],["羅委員智強：就沒有後來了，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這個說實在……"],["羅委員智強：而且又是同一個川普，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：他怎麼做，我們也不要去替他決定。"],["羅委員智強：好啦！部長，我只是勉勵您而已，因為你們有一個邏輯上的問題。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：第二個，我覺得這就是很嚴肅的問題了，川普在競選總統的時候有一個很重要的政見跟臺灣有關，就是要我們交保護費，你知道吧？他當選總統後，說要叫我們交保護費。"],["林部長佳龍：他那個詳細的文字不是說交保護費，就是翻譯……"],["羅委員智強：要到GDP的10%，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：那個時候也沒有講這個數字。是在選舉的時候，受訪的時候他又提到了。"],["羅委員智強：你看的新聞跟我看的新聞不太一樣，你是看龍的新聞吧？"],["林部長佳龍：因為那個數字也變來變去。"],["羅委員智強：數字變來變去？至少他今天提了這個數字嘛！我看到就是新聞……外媒報導都假的？那我就要問你……"],["林部長佳龍：我是覺得他的那個……"],["羅委員智強：那請問你看到的數據是多少？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，他的也有提到……"],["羅委員智強：很多黑幫都要收保護費啊！臺灣當然也要交保護費，不是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他的副總統有一些受訪，也有一些講話。"],["羅委員智強：總統重要還是副總統重要？"],["林部長佳龍：都很重要。"],["羅委員智強：都很重要？總統說的為準嘛！我跟你講，部長，因為川普講話的調調，我也不會把這個責任全部放你身上，可是我覺得外交部總有個責任跟川普的新政府溝通一下，你知道GDP 10%是多少嗎？部長，你知道嗎？你有沒有數字啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們24兆的10%。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，占我們中央政府總預算是84%，基本上如果真照川普講的編到GDP10%的話，政府大概就幾乎沒有事可以做啦！所以這個地方，抱歉，我覺得就是外交部的責任，溝通是你外交部的責任沒錯吧！"],["林部長佳龍：對啊！我們會去溝通，因為事實上……"],["羅委員智強：會去溝通喔！"],["林部長佳龍：第一個，我們是在增加嘛！從過去到未來嘛！"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我要的就你這句話嘛！我坦白直接講，你認為以這個數字來講，是合理要求嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不要講說這個數字是可以、會說話嘛！"],["羅委員智強：不是，以這個數字來講，是不是合理要求？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他講百分之幾，其實這是一個期許啦！"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你講，我……"],["林部長佳龍：但是10%，要看你怎麼計算啦！"],["羅委員智強：GDP 10%有什麼計算方式？"],["林部長佳龍：我們臺灣其實很多東西都跟國防有關，像除了國防部有退輔會，我們在全世界韌性的很多……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，不管你怎麼算，今天部長你要跟我說什麼天下所有事全部皆國防這種算法，那我也佩服你啦！你可以跟我講GDP 100%跟國防有關……"],["林部長佳龍：這個在談判的時候，委員啊！"],["羅委員智強：每一分錢，臺灣越壯大，我們國防越壯大啊！你不能這樣子……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員講，比如像灰色地帶的作戰，中共是海警船……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你就算把這些都算進去……"],["林部長佳龍：它就是國防啊！我們海巡署的預算也是國防啊！"],["羅委員智強：不是啦！好啦！部長，我跟你講喔！你就算把這都算進去，你要到10%也天差地遠，我這樣說不過分吧！你把海巡署全部都算進去，把國安會什麼的全部都算進去，我告訴你也一樣天差地遠，把你外交部算進去，都天差地遠，你相不相信？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，他的副總統最重要的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我跟你講，沒關係，你前面講那句話……"],["林部長佳龍：他們的幕僚也談過是5%，所以這個數字是變來變去。"],["羅委員智強：所以你接受5%？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有啦！我意思是說5%也好，10%也好，這就是要展現我們自我防衛的決心跟國防的能力。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你喔！基本上因為我也在政府工作過，臺美關係我當然知道重要，經營也困難，所以你也發現我質詢你沒有很為難你，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：可是我要講，過去其實我們有跟美國有一些意見不合的時候，至少我在政府服務的時候，比方太平島，美國的意見跟我們中華民國的立場就有點不一樣，對不對？沒錯吧！這應該……"],["林部長佳龍：對啊！跟馬政府時候……"],["羅委員智強：對，跟馬政府時候不一樣，當時至少政府就很勇敢的講出來說，抱歉，我跟你不一樣，但是並不會……","今天如果你要站在一個尊嚴的基礎上跟所謂美國溝通，其實我們……"],["林部長佳龍：我同意耶！"],["羅委員智強：當然嘛！所以不合理的要講，就像前面有委員講的，我覺得部長的態度還是可以修正一下，林郁婷的部分，你不能跟洪孟楷講你問我我才講啊！對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他沒有指名道姓，你要對號入座嗎？我的態度就是很一致，我相信奧運獎牌的得到都是公平競爭，那個公信力比任何一個政治人物講得都強。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，部長，我也當過政府發言人，沒有指名道姓也有沒有指名道姓的回應，不是嗎？就是要回應，不是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我就在這裡回應啦！"],["羅委員智強：對，所以我說你積極性差了一點點，如果說外交部可以主動回應，我告訴你，就很能夠守住政府立場。總而言之，我今天的質詢只是跟部長講，川普上來很多要溝通的，所以請外交部再好好加油努力啦！"],["林部長佳龍：是，好，我們會全力以赴，謝謝委員的勉勵，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員，部長請回。","接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156619","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054ea03b4cf694f7abc97a8e48596ca3d6dfaa9d9f880c8c938bbbba23be64eeb1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:31:04 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林部長有請請林部長"},{"start":11.525,"end":30.118,"text":"部長午安我們就話不多說直接進入主題這個川普當選在2016年當選的時候有這個川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話當初在這個被解讀成為巨大的外交突破那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎這川普他怎麼決定因為你知道他"},{"start":38.404,"end":40.186,"text":"如果沒有通話算不算外交倒退?"},{"start":47.742,"end":47.882,"text":"他的特質喔"},{"start":74.184,"end":97.046,"text":"當然有一些人是說他有這個所謂交易式的領導風格啦交易式的領導風格那他喜歡贏啦想要贏所以呢就是說我想在我們過去四年他執政的時候我們相處的所以說是台美關係啊奠定現在的基礎啦這個我倒是就是在我的報告裡面有提到其實你的報告我等一下再跟你算清楚來齁"},{"start":97.927,"end":116.304,"text":"普遍上不管是國際關係的學者專家也好或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員共同對川普的憂慮也好或者是客觀的分析也好叫做這個人有高度的unpredictable叫做不可預測性部長這個你總知道吧看你怎麼看還是你反對這樣子你贊不贊成這樣的說法"},{"start":120.981,"end":140.702,"text":"他有高度的不可預測性川普我是在一個範圍內但是你如果擴大來看他有可預測性欸你看你在這個剛剛從一開始的答詢到現在你就自打臉我剛剛為什麼跟你講我不會跟你計較說川普跟賴清德總統有沒有同化他是談判的做法有一些你不可預測但是他的價值觀跟政策方向還蠻可預測的"},{"start":141.863,"end":164.381,"text":"就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話我也不會認為是外交倒退你要處變不驚的原因就是因為你要了解他本身具有高度的不可預測性今天我看你外交部的報告通篇在維穩沒事沒事一切都會照常舉行一切都會這個"},{"start":166.142,"end":166.403,"text":"堅若磐石"},{"start":191.85,"end":212.803,"text":"對,那我就舉具體的例子來問啦,烏俄戰爭,對不對,拜登是不是帶領了民主黨政府,帶領了美國,領導了這個民主集團,他們對俄羅斯啊,這對烏克蘭有沒有軍援,有對不對,賣武器等等,提供各式各樣的協助,有沒有?有吧,有,有對不對,他們有沒有聯合世界各個民主國家的集團跟聯盟制裁俄羅斯?"},{"start":214.202,"end":214.362,"text":"川普會不會?"},{"start":229.08,"end":244.72,"text":"因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者,是作風不一樣啦!我再跟你講俄羅斯,你跟我講中國幹嘛?俄羅斯也是一樣啦!部長,我不知道你有沒有注意到,這哲倫司機昨天在推特上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文,你知道下面留言長什麼樣子嗎?"},{"start":246.482,"end":264.503,"text":"我沒有去看他的留言,我有看到媒體報導他的公告川粉大補習版大家在下面寫說你趕快投降喔你早就應該跟普丁談判了你就不要富於頑抗啦美國人不會再給你錢啦都是川普的支持者那請問川普上台跟拜登會一樣嗎?部長"},{"start":266.553,"end":293.409,"text":"就這個對於二五這個戰爭的做法他有不一樣他也講過那我想這個那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講說這路線會一樣沒有 我在不同的層次啦他的作風不太一樣不代表說他其實他對於這個今天去講到包括說這個所謂的中或二其實他有他一套那一套跟"},{"start":295.135,"end":297.136,"text":"其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先的作風不太一樣"},{"start":321.101,"end":322.342,"text":"我覺得我們應該要沉著,然後因應這個情勢,我們做好準備。"},{"start":345.204,"end":363.019,"text":"不是一次就把所有的這個我們的做法都拋出來嗎因為這還在發展中他還要組織政府還要提出很多政策剛剛在答詢的過程中其實已經非常清楚我們從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性"},{"start":363.479,"end":377.852,"text":"我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告明明知道它是個不確定性有不可預測性的風險但在這裡面只字未提通篇維穩不要用中央廚房市的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒"},{"start":378.553,"end":394.108,"text":"我跟委員分享國際政治的結構面也不是個人風格它有一些特色跟談判的技巧但不代表它的一些結構性的就是說對於現在美國外交政策會做改變以及對台灣的政策會有一些不一樣"},{"start":395.048,"end":421.804,"text":"我剛講一個政策你剛講不會改變我舉的烏俄戰爭我認為還是不同層次我是結構性的我認為沒有改變但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣大部分他的重點當然會放在經貿但我們今天談的是國防外交我們在這委員會所以我們今天沒有多談但是他有可能會改變是一個大家都公認的事實我跟委員分享齁比如說你先聽我講完嘛面對這樣子的變局不管是外交部也好或者是陸委會也好你的工作負擔都會增加因為局面複雜"},{"start":422.825,"end":438.572,"text":"我要你在面對這樣問題的呈現,如實的跟人民報告這樣的挑戰,而不是明明有可能有變數,你要蒙著眼睛講說一切都如常,這態度是不正確的,給了背離的外交專業啦!"},{"start":439.966,"end":455.979,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說其實台美關係的突破其實這8年來大部分都是在那個川普總統的那個前4年包括對台的很多的架構性的安排我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭是不是沒有可是你看比如說美中的貿易戰"},{"start":457.841,"end":485.316,"text":"到現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片那個去紅供應鏈我剛剛不是跟你講我們現在國防外交委員會嗎我如果今天要問貿易戰的我會下去經濟委員會問政啊對不對你今天也不是經濟部長我現在要你處理好處理好未來的變局我希望我們的政府就是要有這樣子的心理準備有可能你明明有但你不敢寫啊你不敢講啊不用敢講他有可預知性大家就面對這個問題就好了"},{"start":487.677,"end":488.337,"text":"我們會更加努力,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時22分）謝謝主席，林部長有請。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們就話不多說，直接進入主題。川普在2016年當選的時候，有川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話，當初被解讀成是巨大的外交突破，那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎？會嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：川普他怎麼決定……你知道他有他自己的決定嘛！我們沒有辦法去替他決定。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有辦法替他決定，好，如果沒有通話，算不算外交倒退？"],["林部長佳龍：當然不算。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，今天我們不在這裡做政治的攻防，因為不管有打電話或沒打電話，我們都應該處變不驚，這個才是外交的態度。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實部長剛剛的答詢已經透露一件事情，基本上也應該是全世界各地國際關係的專家學者共同認知的一件事，部長，川普的特質是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：關於他的特質，當然有一些人說他有所謂交易式的領導風格。"],["牛委員煦庭：交易式的領導風格？"],["林部長佳龍：對，他喜歡贏啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：想要贏。"],["林部長佳龍：我想在過去4年他執政的時候，我們的相處可以說是奠定現在臺美關係的基礎。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["林部長佳龍：這個我在我的報告裡面有提到，其實……"],["牛委員煦庭：對你的報告，我等一下再跟你算清楚。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：普遍來說，不管是國際關係的學者專家也好，或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員，他們共同對川普的憂慮也好，或者是客觀的分析也好，就是這個人有高度的unpredictable，就是不可預測性，部長，這個你總知道吧？還是你反對這樣的說法？"],["林部長佳龍：看你怎麼看，其實……"],["牛委員煦庭：你贊不贊成川普有高度的不可預測性這樣的說法？"],["林部長佳龍：我是在一個範圍內，但是你如果擴大來看，他也有可預測性。"],["牛委員煦庭：你看！你從剛剛一開始的答詢到現在，你就自己打臉了！我剛剛為什麼跟你講不會計較川普跟賴清德總統有沒有通話？就是因為大家都知道……"],["林部長佳龍：他是談判的作法有一些你不可預測，但是他的價值觀跟政策方向還蠻可預測的。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性，所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破；如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話，我也不會認為是外交倒退。你要處變不驚的原因，就是因為你要瞭解他本身具有高度的不可預測性。今天我看外交部的報告通篇在維穩，表示沒事、沒事，一切都會照常舉行、一切都會堅若磐石。當然從政治的角度解釋，本席是可以諒解你這樣寫，但這樣寫是外交真正的狀況嗎？","我舉個例子，包含稍早陸委會主委報告的時候、前面你在答詢時都有講，美國一樣會領導全世界的民主聯盟遏止威權集團擴張。你們剛剛答詢都有講了這樣的話，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我就舉具體的例子問，烏俄戰爭，拜登是不是帶領了民主黨政府、帶領美國、領導民主集團，他們對烏克蘭有沒有軍援？有，對不對？賣武器等等提供各式各樣的協助，有沒有？有吧？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：有，對不對？他們有沒有聯合世界上各個民主國家的集團和聯盟制裁俄羅斯？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：有，對不對？好。他們有沒有積極在阻止威權集團的擴張，在拜登政府執政和領導的時代，有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：有，對不對？川普會不會？"],["林部長佳龍：他也會啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：他也會嗎？部長……"],["林部長佳龍：因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者耶！只是作風不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：我在跟你講俄羅斯，你跟我講中國幹嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：俄羅斯也是一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：我不知道你有沒有注意到，澤倫斯基昨天在Twitter上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文，你知道下面的留言長什麼樣子嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我沒有去看留言，我有看到媒體報導他的恭賀……"],["牛委員煦庭：川粉大幅洗版，大家在下面寫：你趕快投降喔！你早就應該跟普丁談判了，你就不要負隅頑抗了，美國人不會再給你錢啦！都是川普的支持者。那請問川普上臺跟拜登會一樣嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：就對俄烏戰爭的作法，他有不一樣，他也講過，我想這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講這些路線會一樣？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，我在不同的層次……"],["牛委員煦庭：邏輯跳來跳去，我不是很瞭解。"],["林部長佳龍：他的作風不太一樣，不代表他……其實他對於……今天講到包括所謂的中或俄，其實他有他的一套，那一套跟現在的拜登總統不一樣，但是不代表他維護美國國家利益以及希望去遏制威權擴張，他是有不一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：他會維護美國的國家利益，這個大家都很清楚。你剛剛講有限的可預測性裡面，大概唯一大家可以公認、可預測的，就是他一定會以美國的利益為優先。但這件事情回到臺灣外交發展的角度來講，我希望今天……"],["林部長佳龍：其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先，只是作風不太一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天的報告主題是對於國際局勢發展之影響，外交部對未來的變局，應該要做充分準備，但我在這個報告裡面通篇沒有看到針對川普不可預測性的這件事情，臺灣有任何的因應措施，你甚至完全沒有提到這一件事，我覺得這這份報告非常不專業！"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得我們應該要沉著，然後因應這個情勢，我們做好準備，不是一次就把我們所有的作法拋出來，因為這還在發展中，他還要組織政府、還要提出很多政策。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛在答詢過程中也非常清楚，從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面，其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性。我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告，明明知道他是個不確定性的、有不可預測性的風險，但在這裡面隻字未提、通篇維穩！不要用中央廚房式的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題，這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員分享……"],["牛委員煦庭：外交部也好，陸委會也好，你未來的挑戰……"],["林部長佳龍：國際政治有它的的結構面，也不是個人風格，他有一些特色和談判的技巧，但不代表他的一些結構性的，就是對於現在的美國外交政策會做改變，以及對臺灣的政策會有一些不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛講一個政策，你剛剛講不會改變，我舉了烏俄戰爭的例子……"],["林部長佳龍：我在談的是不同層次，我說結構性的……"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有辦法回答。"],["林部長佳龍：我認為沒有改變，但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：大部分他的重點當然會放在經貿，而我們今天談的是國防、外交，我們在這個委員會，所以今天沒有多談，但他有可能會改變，是大家都公認的一個事實。面對這樣子的變局……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員分享，比如……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，你先聽我講完。面對這樣子的變局，不管是外交部也好，或者陸委會也好，你的工作負擔都會增加，因為局面複雜。"],["林部長佳龍：這個同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要你在面對這樣的問題呈現時，如實跟人民報告這樣的挑戰，而不是明明可能有變數，你要矇著眼睛講一切都如常……"],["林部長佳龍：不會、不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個態度是不正確的。"],["林部長佳龍：有不一樣，變與不變。"],["牛委員煦庭：也悖離了外交專業，未來還有很多……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，臺美關係的突破，其實這8年來，大部分都是在川普總統的那前4年，包括對臺很多架構性的安排……"],["牛委員煦庭：我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭，是不是沒有？所以當初大家都有一個……"],["林部長佳龍：可是你看，比如美中貿易戰，現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片、去紅供應鏈……"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛不是跟你講，我們現在是在外交及國防委員會，今天我如果要問貿易戰，我會去經濟委員會問政，對不對？你今天也不是經濟部部長。"],["林部長佳龍：其實經濟、外交……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在要你就是處理好未來的變局，我希望我們的政府要有這樣子的心理準備。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：有可能明明有，但你不敢寫、你不敢講。"],["林部長佳龍：沒有錯……"],["牛委員煦庭：不用不敢講。"],["林部長佳龍：委員說的對，有些我們的準備……"],["牛委員煦庭：他有不可預測性，大家面對這個問題就好了，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：不能現在還沒發生就在講，要做好準備。"],["牛委員煦庭：做好準備，好，未來有很多變數、很多挑戰，希望不要再用中央廚房的方式，不要再用一切穩定、用維穩的方式，這沒有意義！坦誠面對問題，這樣才是正確的態度，好不好？希望部長……"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：接下來還有很多機會討論，希望部長加油，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會更加努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，部長請回。","鄭天財、鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來我們請羅智強委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0541c4aecb45c2cbd3a97a8e48596ca3d6dfaa9d9f880c8c938855b1c4d5317d4a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:18:42 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開完會以後就會確認多久會開一次會?"},{"start":124.195,"end":147.161,"text":"我們在1月的時候會召開這個事項好所以12月看1月去召開委員會通過委員會的話就可以改是嗎是沒有錯那我們希望過年前會有好的消息我想公司力大家一起來努力因為畢竟我們現在對於整個醫院缺醫檢師護理師剛剛有說過我們都希望能夠趕快補足這些人力那也這個部分希望教育部能夠重視"},{"start":148.041,"end":168.816,"text":"好那今天的專報呢名稱叫做電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制的一個檢討其實我覺得更應該深入的講我們都知道現在台灣的電子煙害防治法規定類是類煙品是被全面禁止是不能使用但現在每天新聞我們都可以看到依託名字也就是俗稱的殭屍煙我想今天大家都在討論這件事情"},{"start":170.797,"end":192.599,"text":"那大家都說它是電子煙但嚴格來說這個藉由電子煙的載具將毒液裝在煙袋裡面於木混珠也就是說我們今天在討論的不僅是涉及到煙害也涉及到毒害教育部在這個方面責任我覺得是非常的重大首先電子煙的外型多樣且與傳統的香煙來相比"},{"start":195.501,"end":223.171,"text":"煙霧相對不易察覺聞也聞不出個所以然所以學校在日常的管理中難以及時發現學生使用電子煙的行為例如學生使用電子煙通常不可能在教室比較常出現的可能在廁所走廊不易發現的一個地方教育部有沒有針對這樣的狀況提供學校一個具體的應對方法讓學校有更有效的去面對來做規範而不是只是告訴學校宣導要多加注意"},{"start":224.284,"end":251.496,"text":"有沒有什麼具體的規範因為我們確實校園裡邊他是會有不定期我們的這個學校創新以及校安人員我們的學務我們的老師事實上他會不定期對學校剛才委員所提的廁所啦或者一些所謂的一些可能的學生的對那個基本都要做的那些我們都有基本都有但是我還是回到剛剛的電子煙察覺不易我記得以前我們在國中的時候都還看過"},{"start":253.197,"end":267.233,"text":"老師啊去聞那個學生的手指因為抽煙會有那個煙味在手指上可是電子煙不一定有這樣的狀況所以我們在發現說在這樣子的一個查學過程會相當不易"},{"start":268.174,"end":268.434,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":290.103,"end":309.001,"text":"實際面在校園將私煙就是將毒液裝在煙彈裡面老師怎麼有辦法去辨別這是電子煙還是有毒的煙彈聞也聞不出來啊對不對那所以這個這樣的不當成分當中我們有沒有相關的檢測設備可以讓學校第一線來做處理"},{"start":310.885,"end":339.704,"text":"我們目前檢測的設備還是是沒有的我們大概就從學生的行為跟看到有具體的一個事證那我們會把這樣的一個他這個稀釋的這些證據這個送給這個法醫所裡面去做進一步的這個證據的一個部長就部裡面的資料電子煙現在的數量在校園裡面你們有統計嗎"},{"start":340.885,"end":369.054,"text":"校園裡邊我們目前通報是電子煙是有38件大概就是說量是不高但是陳如委員事實上也很清楚你覺得有沒有黑數應該是說在校園裡邊的上課時間老師跟學員互動大概學生在這個部分相對是比較少的但是他離開校園裡邊在社區同樣的青年同才他們可能來自於好奇來自於"},{"start":369.734,"end":398.914,"text":"其他的可能的因素他們會稀釋的一個比例我想會在社區會在校園外抽這樣子的不僅是吸引我相信這也會有陰影所以在外面會抽在校園內也無可避免38起我個人認為調查不一定夠紮實所以有沒有黑數我相信一定有那38起裡面或者是教育部的資料裡面有沒有依託名指的出現在校園裡面"},{"start":400.315,"end":415.335,"text":"目前沒有但是我們希望不要有但我們擔心會有所以我希望在這樣子的一個違禁品當中我們大家都知道現階段校園的一些無奈學生很聰明那老師很難查"},{"start":415.996,"end":417.618,"text":"目前他確實是學校在校規上他是有一些規範的"},{"start":436.856,"end":437.456,"text":"國建署副署長"},{"start":467.838,"end":483.781,"text":"煙害防制法明定未滿20歲不得吸煙也就是台灣的禁煙年齡是20歲請問法修完了嗎?已經去年3月22號公布實施成效如何?有沒有具體的落實?校園就此安寧了嗎?你覺得呢?"},{"start":486.135,"end":510.48,"text":"剛剛說這個教育部的資料有38件其實跟委員報告當然教育部的內部的資料38件那因為在兩個禮拜前未完委員會有要求所以我們有跟縣市溝通目前縣市回報回來的透過校外跟警政校內跟學校的這個合作大概有上千件那現在正進行過濾跟查處中"},{"start":511.46,"end":533.067,"text":"校外跟警政有上千件對 這個加起來我們在稽查的過程你會發現違規使用電子煙的上千件所以鄭部長剛剛我說的38件跟上千件這是中間的一個差距我們沒有要怪罪教育部但是我相信這個查緝的確困難但是實際面的確有就我所了解電子煙是非常盛行的"},{"start":533.607,"end":544.975,"text":"所以在這個部分上一定要特別小心注意前天11月5號有一則新聞高中生一時好玩上網貼電子煙的照片遭南投衛生局重罰20萬部長你知道為什麼他要被罰20萬嗎?部長你知道嗎?因為我們報告他就是張貼這一個電子煙的一個訊息"},{"start":554.019,"end":556.601,"text":"這還是最重要的一個關鍵現在反而變成學生在當菸頭"},{"start":583.539,"end":604.418,"text":"原頭的不斷在提升根本就沒有做好所以教育部跟衛福部怎麼互相合作加強這個因應措施從青少年的部分來處理副署長衛福部在源頭斷根上不要放水就阿彌陀佛了但是據傳網路平台業者FBIGD卡有去找衛福部開會希望不要抓得那麼嚴有沒有這一回事"},{"start":605.058,"end":628.385,"text":"其實我們從去年3月22號執行新法之後到目前為止我們是定期跟業者來做溝通的對那業者有沒有反應不要抓這麼嚴我們依法行政勿往勿中那其實我先問你他們有沒有反應這種事嗎一定是依法行政我跟您報告是我們都在溝通我相信你會依法行政但我要了解平台有沒有在反應這些事情"},{"start":629.97,"end":653.308,"text":"我相信大家都覺得執法上面不管是那個小朋友犯煙或者是平台業者大家都覺得我們這個法煙害防治法本身就是一個比較嚴肅的法律比較嚴格的法律我希望這個是嚴肅以待認真看待依法行政而且是一定要非常的嚴格去執行如果都沒有這一回事怎麼可能網路上一直都有賣電子煙的廣告跟管道"},{"start":654.188,"end":674.03,"text":"電子煙變成許多平台的大宗買廣告的一個業者所以如果都沒有接受到業者關心請你告訴全國大眾針對網路平台的裁罰狀況目前是多少目前我們裁罰的件數到10月底的是3萬多件目前正在積極做裁處的動作"},{"start":675.572,"end":697.535,"text":"我希望能夠再提升這方面的查緝甚至是裁罰能夠標準能夠再將這些件數持續的穩定提高所以衛福部110年青少年吸煙行為調查報告全國7.9萬青少年吸食電子煙1.6萬吸食加熱煙因為政府在源頭上管理有放水電子煙取得容易這是不爭的事實"},{"start":698.075,"end":724.074,"text":"大家都知道所以才會有7.9萬的青少年吸食加熱煙當煙頭校園的電子煙問題就會日漸的嚴重所以我想政府要不要做我們都看得很清楚實際拿出作為讓我們這些家長安心實際拿出這個作為讓整個社會安心而不是我們看到某些部會在放水而某些部會一直在努力的想要辦法在中間亡羊補牢在中間插屁股"},{"start":724.654,"end":724.674,"text":"羅廷瑋議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":994,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時18分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。部長，慢慢來。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長今天看起來有比較累喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好，謝謝委員的體諒。"],["羅委員廷瑋：辛苦了！辛苦了！要坐著嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不用，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不要客氣喔！進入主題之前，我先請問一下部長幾個問題，有關馬偕醫院欲改制為馬偕醫學大學的進度，這幾年馬偕醫院的招生，因為學校科系的屬性關係，他們所有的科系招生非常亮眼，科系跟畢業後的工作是可以連結的，比如國內的醫院缺醫師、護理師，馬偕有護理、醫檢相關科系，國內社會對驗光師有需求，馬偕醫院最近幾年也在教育部的同意之下設視光學系。請問部長，馬偕醫學院也有向教育部提出改制為馬偕醫學大學申請案，請問目前辦理的進度，改制有沒有遇到什麼困難？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有的。跟委員報告，我們一切按照專科以上學校的變更或者升格等等的辦法，我們是按照程序來做。所以我們接著是要去馬偕做學校實地訪查。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以你剛剛說「沒有」的意思，是說沒有遇到困難，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們按照程序，對，所以基本上，我說在程序上沒有任何問題，我們會按照……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，幾月要去實地勘查？什麼時候要去實地勘查？可不可以給我一個明確的時間？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們12月的時候會……事實上，我們在10月底已經函復學校書面審查的意見，目前排是在12月的時候會去學校實地勘查。"],["羅委員廷瑋：一切如果順利，都沒有什麼問題的話，預計幾月會辦理完成？"],["鄭部長英耀：接著就是還有一個程序，就是私校的諮詢委員會會開會，開完會以後就會確認。"],["羅委員廷瑋：多久會開一次會？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在1月的時候會召開這個私校諮詢委員會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，所以12月看、1月召開委員會，委員會通過的話就可改，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們希望過年前會有好消息，我想公、私立大家一起來努力，畢竟現在整個醫院缺醫檢師、護理師，剛剛有說過，我們都希望趕快補足這些人力，這部分希望教育部能夠重視。","今天的專報名稱叫「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」，其實我覺得應該更深入的講，我們都知道現在臺灣的菸害防制法規定類菸品是被全面禁止、不能使用的，但現在每天新聞我們都可以看到依托咪酯也就是俗稱的殭屍煙。我想今天大家都在討論這件事情，大家都說它是電子煙，但嚴格來說這個藉由電子煙的載具將毒液裝在煙彈裡面魚目混珠，也就是我們今天討論的不僅涉及到菸害，也涉及到毒害，教育部在這方面的責任我覺得非常地重大。","首先，電子煙的外型多樣，而且與傳統的香菸相比，煙霧相對不易察覺，聞也聞不出個所以然，所以學校在日常的管理中難以及時發現學生使用電子煙的行為。例如學生使用電子煙通常不可能在教室，比較常出現的可能是在廁所、走廊等不易被發現的地方，教育部有沒有針對這樣的狀況提供學校一個具體的應對方法，讓學校更有效地去面對來做規範，而不是只是告訴學校要宣導、要多加注意，有沒有什麼具體的規範？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們校園裡邊確實會有不定期創新與校安人員、我們的學務、我們的老師，事實上會不定期對學校中剛才委員所提的廁所或那些所謂一些學生可能……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，那個基本都要做。"],["鄭部長英耀：那些我們基本都有在做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我還是回到剛剛的電子煙察覺不易，我記得以前我們在國中的時候都還看過老師去聞學生的手指，因為抽菸會有那個菸味在手指上，可是電子煙不一定有這樣的狀況。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們發現這樣子察覺的過程會相當不易，這個部分有沒有具體的一些方法來協助各個學校校園，而不是只是宣導說學校要多加注意。","再來，我們要知道，我們在衛環委員會一直不斷地提議對依托咪酯或是相關的這些要更有效地去管制，甚至要把它列為毒品升級，才能夠更有效，可是問題現在我們回到實際面，在校園殭屍煙就是將毒液裝在煙彈裡面，老師怎麼有辦法去辨別這是電子煙還是有毒的煙彈？聞也聞不出來啊，對不對？這樣的不當成分我們有沒有相關的檢測設備可以讓學校第一線來處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前檢測的設備是沒有的，我們大概就從學生的行為跟看到的具體事證，會把他吸食的證據送給法醫所，去做進一步的證據的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，就部裡面的資料，電子煙現在在校園裡面的數量你們有統計嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：校園裡面我們目前的通報電子煙有38件，大概量是不高，但是誠如委員事實上也很清楚……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你覺得有沒有黑數？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該是說在校園裡面上課時間老師跟學生互動，大概學生在這一個部分相對是比較少的，但是他離開校園在社區同樣的青年同儕可能來自於好奇、來自於其他可能的因素，他們吸食被發現的比例確實是比較高的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想會在社區、會在校園外抽這樣子的不僅是吸引，我相信這也會有菸癮，所以在外面會抽，在校園內也無可避免。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：38起我個人認為調查不一定夠扎實，所以有沒有黑數？我相信一定有，那38起裡面或者是教育部的資料裡面有沒有依托咪酯的出現？在校園裡面。"],["鄭部長英耀：目前沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，目前沒有，我們希望不要有，但我們擔心會有，所以我希望在這樣子的違禁品當中，我們大家都知道現階段校園的一些無奈，學生很聰明，老師很難查，老師也很難有實際的作為去查緝這樣子的違禁品，因為有時候受限於查緝過程遇到的一些困難。所以本席想問教育部是否有制訂一個處罰的基準，讓學校能夠在處理上更有利？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前學校在校規上是有一些規範的，違反就……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然就是記過嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：對，就記過，目前是這樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，我想有一些規範，從我剛剛所說的吸食的地點到查緝的困難，這部分還是需要大家一起集思廣益，看能不能去做更具體的作為，讓學校能夠從源頭或者是從管制上幫忙協助處理。","好，我要先請國健署副署長。"],["賈副署長淑麗：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：菸害防制法明定未滿20歲不得吸菸，也就是臺灣的禁菸年齡是20歲。"],["賈副署長淑麗：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：請問法修完了嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：去年3月22日已經公布實施。"],["羅委員廷瑋：成效如何？有沒有具體的落實？校園有就此安寧了嗎？你覺得呢？剛剛說教育部的資料有38件青少年……"],["賈副署長淑麗：其實跟委員報告，當然教育部的內部資料是38件，因為在兩個禮拜前衛環委員會有要求，所以我們有跟縣市溝通，目前縣市回報回來的，透過校外跟警政、校內跟學校的合作大概有上千件，現在正進行過濾跟查處中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：校外跟警政有上千件？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，這個加起來我們在稽查的過程裡面發現違規使用電子煙的有上千件。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以鄭部長，剛剛我說的，38件跟上千件這中間的一個差距，我們沒有要怪罪教育部，我相信查緝這個的確困難，但是實際面的確就我所了解電子煙是非常盛行的，所以在這個部分一定要特別小心注意。前天11月5日有一則新聞，高中生一時好玩上網貼電子煙的照片，遭南投縣衛生局重罰20萬，部長知道為什麼他被罰20萬嗎？部長你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，他就是張貼電子煙的訊息。"],["羅委員廷瑋：販賣的訊息！他不會只是在抽電子煙就被罰20萬，還有販賣。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對吧？副署長。"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，這個學生違反的是第十五條第二項的規定，他是除了……他是販賣的，所以我們是用第四十條的裁罰處理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以菸害防制的重點是從源頭切掉，溯源就能斷根，這才是最重要的一個關鍵，現在反而變成學生在當煙頭，源頭不斷在提升，根本就沒有做好，所以教育部跟衛福部要怎麼互相合作加強這個因應措施，從青少年的部分來處理。副署長，衛福部在源頭斷根上不要放水就阿彌陀佛了，但是據傳網路平台業者FB、IG、Dcard有去找衛福部開會，希望不要抓得那麼嚴，有沒有這一回事？"],["賈副署長淑麗：其實我們從去年3月22日執行新法之後，到目前為止我們是定期跟業者來做溝通的，所以有4次的會議。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，那業者有沒有反映不要抓這麼嚴？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們依法行政，勿枉勿縱。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，我先問你他們有沒有反映這種事嘛？"],["賈副署長淑麗：一定是依法行政，我跟您報告我們都在溝通。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我相信你會依法行政，但我要了解平台有沒有在反映這些事情。"],["賈副署長淑麗：我相信大家都覺得執法上面不管是小朋友販煙或者是平台業者，大家都覺得菸害防制法本身就是一個比較嚴肅的法律、比較嚴格的法律。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望這個是嚴肅以待、認真看待、依法行政。"],["賈副署長淑麗：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：而且一定要非常嚴格去執行，如果都沒有這一回事，怎麼可能網路上一直都有賣電子煙的廣告跟管道？電子煙變成許多平台大宗買廣告的業者。"],["賈副署長淑麗：了解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以如果都沒有接收到業者關心，請你告訴全國大眾，針對網路平台的裁罰狀況目前是多少？"],["賈副署長淑麗：目前我們裁罰的件數到10月底是三萬多件。"],["羅委員廷瑋：三萬多件？"],["鄭部長英耀：對，然後正在積極做裁處的動作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望能夠再提升這方面的查緝，甚至是裁罰的標準，能夠再將這些件數持續的穩定提高。衛福部110年青少年吸菸行為調查報告顯示，全國7.9萬青少年吸食電子煙，1.6萬吸食加熱菸，因為政府在源頭管理上有放水，電子煙取得容易，這是不爭的事實，大家都知道，所以才會有7.9萬的青少年吸食加熱菸、當菸（煙）頭，校園的電子煙問題就會日漸嚴重。所以我想政府要不要做我們都看得很清楚，要實際拿出作為讓我們這些家長安心、實際拿出作為讓整個社會安心，而不是我們看到某些部會在放水，而某些部會一直努力想辦法在中間亡羊補牢、在中間擦屁股，所以我希望這是一個各部會要一起互相合作的問題，我們一起來努力，好嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。","接下來有請林月琴委員，質詢時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156616","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054154e3856298796cabe9b0bd4ecc214d5faa9d9f880c8c9386a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:14:29 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像這樣的情況其實是還蠻普遍的那所以我們在第一時間我們駐美代表處有向這個川普團隊來恭喜對 就是有總統巨寒的賀文那對於這個賀錦麗勒"},{"start":445.891,"end":468.471,"text":"總統自己在臉書上的貼文也有表達感謝拜登總統跟賀錦麗副總統這次的總統候選人他們對台灣的支持那美台關係的一個貢獻那這個部分就是都有就如您看到的在新聞稿上也有在貼文也有"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時14分）謝謝主席，請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長辛苦了。川普當選第47任的美國總統，昨天美國的股市大漲了1,500點左右，我上來之前看了一下，今天的臺灣股市也漲了兩百多點，台積電也有漲，因為股市能夠反映一些政治、經濟的情況，所以想請問一下部長怎麼看美股漲、臺股也漲這件事？"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得政治如果穩定了之後，其實對投資者都是一個好的消息，在美國大選期間大家真的都很緊張，那也已經定了，其實對企業界來講，他就知道要怎麼去因應。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["林部長佳龍：因為這一次川普的勝選，該黨得票跟席次也算是比外界──尤其是民調原來所預測的更多，在這種情況之下，賀錦麗陣營表達接受敗選之外，也會協助交接，所以我覺得這個不確定性的因素就沒了，這個對投資者也是一個很重要的因素。"],["李委員坤城：尤其像台積電也漲了，因為外界在質疑如果川普當選，對於台積電可能會有一些關稅上面的影響，我看今天台積電也漲了，表示我們臺灣投資者對於台積電是相當有信心的。"],["林部長佳龍：要相信台積電，它對全球供應鏈的變化都是有充分的準備，所以不會因為選舉結果就真的受到衝擊而沒辦法去因應。"],["李委員坤城：好，賴總統在昨天下午有召開一個國安高層會議，部長也有參加，我想請教一下部長，會中有沒有討論到在川普明年1月就職之前，政權交接的過渡時期，中國的政治意圖跟軍事動態可能對臺灣會有什麼樣的影響？"],["林部長佳龍：在我們外交部的報告裡面確實也有提到，要嚴防中共在美國政府交接期對臺灣有一些壓迫的作為，在這個期間我們必須做好因應，因為政府交接，原政府進入看守期，而新政府還沒有上任，也許會有一種可能情境，不過並不是一定就會這樣，就是中共對臺的一些軍演，有可能會有一些挑釁，來測試未來美國川普政府的回應，這個是不能排除的，我們也做好了一些應變的計畫。"],["李委員坤城：所以在昨天的國安高層會議裡面有提到這個部分？"],["林部長佳龍：所謂的國安會議本來就是例行性召開，對於這個選舉結果，其實我們都在第一時間掌握，也都有相應要做的準備工作，比如說，不管是發賀函，或者是對未來他的就職典禮我們要組團，還有他一些相關人事布局可能涉及到的政策方向，其實我們外交部配合國安會都做好了整體的準備工作，就是對選後不同選舉結果的因應。"],["李委員坤城：好，那再就教部長，今天彭博新聞社有一個消息，不過這個消息已經證實為假，就是說川普在贏得大選之後，賴清德考慮要試圖致電給川普，目前不知道川普是否會接電話。總統府已經有駁斥了，部長也說跟川普的外交幕僚有聯繫的管道，但是沒有任何關於電話的討論。那我在想中國接下來也會繼續再來操作，就是賴政府跟川普政府沒有聯絡管道、不知道怎麼聯絡的這些假訊息，請問外交部怎麼去因應？還有外交部目前跟川普團隊的聯繫管道如何？"],["林部長佳龍：有一個媒體的報導好像我們要去聯繫、去打電話，這個也沒有經過查實，就是讓府方有一些回應，所以沒有平衡報導，在經過溝通之後，他們也做了一些修正，因為我們不希望把這個操作成一種好像要打電話、不打電話的問題。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！或者是說想打電話卻不知道找誰打電話，就是他想要企圖去營造我們好像跟川普團隊沒有一個聯繫的管道。"],["林部長佳龍：所以我舉一個例子，就像他們的前國安顧問O'Brien，他就推了我們賴總統在「X」平台上面的恭賀文，這個也是一個很好的顯示，像我們駐美的代表處也是在第一時間就有轉達總統的賀函。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們現在跟川普的團隊在外交上面有聯繫嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：應該說他的團隊還在形成中，我們對於他這個政府的組成，可能會入閣、會擔任各個職務的，我們是有一些幕僚的分析跟研判，但是這也要隨著他組織政府的程序，在他1月20號就職之前我們會針對這個部分，其實人事的布局也會影響未來政策的輕重緩急。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！剛剛部長有提到歐布萊恩，他是美國的前國家安全顧問，因為總統有先貼了一個文，然後他有轉貼，也tag賴清德總統，部長是怎麼看？當然賴總統有去恭賀，因為歐布萊恩對於川普的團隊也相當的重要，部長怎麼看這個轉貼的政治意涵？"],["林部長佳龍：這個當然就是一個很友善的行動，也不是說就只有這個，我們駐美代表處在第一時間都有跟可能現在或未來會參與政府政策的相關人士聯繫或恭賀，或表達對於我們未來一些合作的期待，所以這只是其一而已，像這樣的情況其實是還蠻普遍的。"],["李委員坤城：OK，所以駐美代表處在第一時間有向川普團隊恭喜？"],["林部長佳龍：對，就是由總統具函的賀文。"],["李委員坤城：對於賀錦麗呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我們總統自己在臉書上的貼文也有對拜登總統跟賀錦麗副總統，也就是這次的總統候選人表達感謝，包括他們對臺灣的支持、對美臺關係的貢獻，這個部分都有，就如您所看到的。"],["李委員坤城：就是兩邊的團隊都有就對了。"],["林部長佳龍：對，在新聞稿上也有，在貼文也有。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員，部長請回。","接下來請牛煦庭委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156615","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054db5631403ba71df697a8e48596ca3d6dfaa9d9f880c8c938cd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:12:39 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of foreign affairs啊!你!在講人家!對不對!請問你啦,你現在,還是以前問的問題,他現在當選的,你有沒有安排賴清德總統,過去美國,有沒有?去我們的中南美的邦交國啊,過去美國。"},{"start":216.345,"end":221.011,"text":"我想這個總統出訪會由總統府阿他們如果有確定的時間、地點跟對象或對外宣布我們當然都會做好幕僚作業阿"},{"start":235.498,"end":240.282,"text":"因為那種操作可能會引起一些誤會,所以我要澄清。因為沒有的事沒有在運作,結果有人這樣報導,我們只好去把它澄清。"},{"start":263.339,"end":291.237,"text":"我正在猜喔是不是我們這個這個上一次操作成功啊這一次來講的話大概是怎樣人家不願意喔不不這樣子喔這個東西所以快點澄清人家都還沒講要去澄清很奇怪這樣東西現在好吧這個我回到另外今天想問的問題了是前幾天總執行問你喔吼你30秒說沒有這個是"},{"start":293.854,"end":322.252,"text":"我叫拉北市長來講來來來,你們就已經請問你,來來來請問你,你不聽不懂我講,市長講市長我們有沒有1.3億去投入Orange Hill聖文森的Orange Hill有沒有那個是一個蔬菜這個種苗的研發計畫但是跟大麻一點關係都沒有來來來,不要緊張喔所以是有這個事,不是沒有只是部長你一定要果然"},{"start":323.554,"end":348.164,"text":"我們有投入這個錢來那個計劃是公開資訊啊在我們國外基金的網頁上都查得到我跟你講喔所以部長你別講要講太快喔來來來來來我跟委員保我有到那個Orange Hill勒我覺得他那個齁包括鳳梨啊還有這個馬鈴薯還有相關的這個育苗做得很成功啊但是沒有大麻啦而且不要急不要急喔來2023年的Nature"},{"start":353.615,"end":355.635,"text":"這不是喔,這不是我們的報告喔,這兩個不一樣的喔。我知道,很大的地點。"},{"start":376.301,"end":376.661,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":391.997,"end":404.68,"text":"我真的有問阿!你講這不是笑話啦!不是笑話的笑話!Orange Hill是當地附近最大的大麻的研發產製中心啦!你知道嗎?這是個地名啦!我們是在地名裡面有一個我們的這個國人會的這個技術團在協助他們怎麼樣增加農業的生產力啦!"},{"start":415.382,"end":415.522,"text":"2019 聖文聖官方獎"},{"start":436.496,"end":450.109,"text":"緣發實驗室緣發大門這跟我們無關啊你不可以在地上就把它倒到我們的計畫啊這不一樣的東西啊這裡面你就是orange here上面是我們外交部下面這個不是喔"},{"start":451.448,"end":452.248,"text":"11萬人口11萬人口11萬人口11萬人口11萬人口11萬人口"},{"start":481.182,"end":482.663,"text":"委員提醒我們一定會嚴加注意"},{"start":510.401,"end":511.941,"text":"因為我一直強烈主張大麻不可以合法化"},{"start":539.96,"end":561.796,"text":"然後你這樣的一個舉動,讓外界錯覺民進黨新任的賴金的政府,要把它合法化,因為你們去支持他嘛。因為委員的質詢我們說明之後就有澄清的機會,還要是感謝,不然人家可能會誤會。不是誤會,因為他很小,你說土地是我們的百分之一是吧?"},{"start":562.594,"end":565.815,"text":"你再查一下喔,他們還輸出很多魚肉用的大麻"},{"start":586.082,"end":601.801,"text":"這才可怕在這裡就是現在交易委員會就在討論這個我們怎麼樣防止青少年服用大碼等等的2018年的預算報告你看娛樂用大碼出口到鄰國我都查認清楚了我就是不斷地講就是不斷地要提醒你"},{"start":602.862,"end":627.768,"text":"不要助紂為虐不要為了一點點的那個外交的利益傷害了中華民國在世界上的一個名譽的時候我們在助長大馬不好對啦 這個要把它說清楚不然萬一誤會也不好就我們的援助計畫沒有跟大馬任何的關係這個要做大法我不知道你可能不知道底下的人騙你喔"},{"start":630.075,"end":631.196,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們會多加注意"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時3分）謝謝主席、各位先進。有請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：順著剛才洪委員的一個題目，川普選舉過程當中，今年初到這一次最近的選舉，講了兩次，說臺灣偷了美國的晶片產業，然後最近他在Commonwealth of Pennsylvania搖擺州的時候又講，說我們又偷走了他們的獎牌，就變性人的問題。言下之意，臺灣是小偷，小偷國家啊，偷晶片、偷獎牌，你在這裡說半天、說很大聲，問題是川普現在當選美國總統了，他講話美國人都聽見了，都聽進去了，喔！臺灣是小偷，專門偷美國的晶片業；臺灣是小偷，偷世界的獎牌，結果我們都沒有去澄清。你只有在這講沒人聽到啊！我們沒辦法，我們是小國，沒人聽到啊！他那裡是大國，聽到的人這麼多，美國人就這樣聽進去了啊，臺灣是小偷，這件事外交部責任非常重大，你們都這樣怕死，遇到美國就怕死了，不敢發聲一下，或者是請問你，要不要去登個廣告，說我們不是小偷，我們是你很重要的盟友？怎麼會這樣子講我們是小偷呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，美國各大媒體都不同意川普總統的講法，很多都講出我們的主張，包括晶片的事情，也包括奧運獎牌的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：只有你在講不同意，那麼奇怪，只有你講不同意，對不對？你要發聲啊，最少你要出個聲音，登個廣告也好，在Washington Post、在什麼地方也登個廣告，可以嗎？登個廣告澄清我們不是小偷，我們是你們重要的盟友。"],["林部長佳龍：我想美國人沒有說就接受這種說法……"],["賴委員士葆：哪那麼奇怪，你又不是美國人，你在臺灣啊！"],["林部長佳龍：因為晶片業者，還有這些美國的媒體都已經講得很清楚……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你啦，你要不要登廣告澄清一下？"],["林部長佳龍：這個供應鏈裡面是分工的關係。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有登廣告，也沒有去跟他們澄清，這種東西根深柢固，人家美國人就聽進去了，我們多少美國的親友都說：欸呦，你們臺灣小偷咧，偷我們的晶片業，偷國際的獎牌咧！"],["林部長佳龍：沒有啦，我們幫他賺錢啦，我們賺一塊他賺三塊啊。"],["賴委員士葆：對，你要講啊！"],["林部長佳龍：就算台積電，也是外資占多數股權。"],["賴委員士葆：你要講給他聽啊！對不對？廣告也不登……"],["林部長佳龍：有啦，有機會我都在講，他們來的訪問團，或我們的駐處都有在講。"],["賴委員士葆：你要主動講，主動登個廣告，可以嗎？登個廣告可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們講，媒體就會報導我們的講法了。"],["賴委員士葆：你要正式的announce，對不對？你要用Minister of Foreign Affairs Lin來講，對不對？請問你，還是以前問的問題，他現在當選了，你有沒有安排賴清德總統過境美國去我們中南美的邦交國，過境美國，有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：我想總統出訪由總統府負責，他們如果有確定的時間、地點跟對象，會對外宣布。"],["賴委員士葆：也需要你們外交部來安排，不是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然都會做好幕僚作業。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，現在都沒有聽到風聲？"],["林部長佳龍：時機成熟了，就跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：這個也是一個很重要的指標，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：這個由總統府統一發言。"],["賴委員士葆：你們今天還怕得要死，說我們賴總統沒有期待跟川普打電話，沒有期待啊？"],["林部長佳龍：因為那一種操作可能會引起一些誤會，所以我要澄清，就這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：事實上這個東西……"],["林部長佳龍：因為沒有的事，沒有在運作，結果有人這樣報導，我們只好去澄清。"],["賴委員士葆：我都在猜，是不是我們上一次操作成功，這一次來講的話，大概是怎樣，錢談不攏，人家不願意，會不會這樣子？所以趕快澄清這個東西，人家都還沒有講，你就澄清，我覺得很奇怪，這種東西現在……好吧，我回到另外今天想問的問題，前幾天總質詢問你的，你30秒鐘就說沒有這個事……"],["林部長佳龍：來，我叫拉美司長來講。"],["賴委員士葆：來、來、來，部長你不知道，讓司長講，我們有沒有拿1.3億去投入Orange Hill，聖文森的Orange Hill，有沒有？"],["鄭司長力城：那是一個蔬菜種苗的研發計畫，但是跟大麻一點關係都沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：對，有。來、來、來，不要緊張，所以是有這個事，不是沒有，只是部長你一直否認……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有啦！"],["賴委員士葆：有，我們有投入這個錢啦！"],["鄭司長力城：那個計畫是公開資訊，在我們國合基金的網頁上都查得到。"],["賴委員士葆：對，就是公開資訊，我才查得到啊！來，我跟你講，所以部長，你之前講太快了喔，你……"],["林部長佳龍：不會、不會，我有……"],["賴委員士葆：來、來、來……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，我有到那個Orange Hill，我覺得包括它的鳳梨、馬鈴薯還有相關的育苗做得很成功，但是沒有大麻，而且……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦，部長，來，部長，不要急、不要急喔。2023年的Nature期刊裡面就講，培育大麻，cannabis就是大麻，這個東西很清楚的啊！這個……"],["林部長佳龍：這個不是，這個不是我們的報告，這是兩個不一樣的喔。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，人家Nature說的就是在這裡，這個地方就是聖文森的Orange Hill，你這裡寫的……"],["林部長佳龍：Orange Hill是一個很大的地點呢！"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，很大的地點，好，那我再給你……"],["林部長佳龍：包括他們的副總理來臺灣，我這次還見到他，那是一個地名，很大的一個地方。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我知道，很大，對。"],["林部長佳龍：我還問他說為什麼叫Orange Hill，但沒有產orange？他說：對，我們這裡沒有橘子，我們這裡是其他的水果。我真的有問啦。"],["賴委員士葆：來，你說這個是不是笑話的笑話。Orange Hill是當地附近最大的大麻研發產製中心，你知道嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，這是個地名啦！我們是在當地有一個國合會的技術團，協助他們怎麼樣增加農業的生產力啦！"],["賴委員士葆：Orange Hill……"],["林部長佳龍：而且還不只這個，還有豬，還有羊，還有很多的水果，我還在那邊摘了一顆楊桃，對不對？我的臉書上有啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你不要緊張，你這樣轉移焦點，來，2019年聖文森的官方講，Orange Hill研發實驗室研發大麻……"],["林部長佳龍：這跟我們無關啦！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼跟你無關！"],["林部長佳龍：你不能因為一個地名，就把它倒到我們的計畫，這是不一樣的東西。"],["賴委員士葆：來看下一頁，這裡面就是Orange Hill……"],["林部長佳龍：上面是我們外交部，下面這個不是喔。"],["賴委員士葆：Orange Hill Biotechnology Center，你就是Orange Hill這裡面的……大麻的……"],["林部長佳龍：Orange Hill是一個地名，委員，很大，我有到現地去啦，好大一片都是叫Orange Hill，但是就是沒產orange。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你聖文森的人口有多少？"],["林部長佳龍：11萬。"],["賴委員士葆：11萬，那有多大？11萬人口，你把它說得好像會飛天，那是多大的國家……"],["林部長佳龍：很多島就是了。"],["賴委員士葆：11萬人口，請問它的土地多大？"],["林部長佳龍：腹地喔？"],["賴委員士葆：土地多大，土地面積多大？說來聽聽……"],["林部長佳龍：它是島國，有很多很多的島，比臺灣小很多啦……"],["賴委員士葆：來來來，是嘛。"],["林部長佳龍：你也知道加勒比海的國家都小小的。"],["賴委員士葆：它是中南美加勒比海很重要的大麻產製中心，外界一直擔心的是，你們的錢丟進去幫助大麻的研發跟產製，這是我們所擔心的，你一直跟我們說Orange Hill沒有……"],["林部長佳龍：委員的提醒，我們一定會嚴加注意。它的土地差不多我們的百分之一……"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛，小小的一個……"],["林部長佳龍：有很多的島分散，海域是蠻廣的，但是土地是比較小的。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣已經有夠小了，那麼小的一個地方，我們丟給他，當然，我今天要來找你的時候，我仔細找了好多資料，那個地方就是當地腹地都種大麻……"],["林部長佳龍：委員研究大麻這麼深入。"],["賴委員士葆：因為我一直強烈主張，大麻不可以合法化，然後你這樣的舉動讓外界錯覺，民進黨新任的賴清德政府要把它合法化，因為你們去支持大麻……"],["林部長佳龍：經過委員的質詢，我們說明之後就有澄清的機會，還是要感謝委員，真的，不然人家可能會誤會。"],["賴委員士葆：不是誤會，因為它很小，你說土地是我們的百分之一，是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：380多平方公里。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛，這麼小一個地方，整個地方又是當地附近的大麻研發產製中心，怎麼不擔心呢？當然擔心啊！我們是擔心這個。"],["林部長佳龍：他們也許有一些是藥用，但是我是說我們沒有在幫忙生產這個。"],["賴委員士葆：不是藥用，你再查一下喔，他們還輸出很多很多娛樂用的大麻，這才是可怕之處，現在教育委員會正在討論這個，我們怎麼樣防止青少年服用大麻等等的，2018年的預算報告，你看，娛樂用大麻出口到鄰國，我都查得很清楚，我不斷的講，就是不斷要提醒你，不要助紂為虐，不要為了一點點的外交利益，傷害了中華民國在世界上的名譽，說我們在助長大麻，不好啦。"],["林部長佳龍：對啦，這個要把它說清楚，不然萬一誤會也不好，所以我們的援助計畫跟大麻沒有任何的關係。"],["賴委員士葆：這個要做到喔，我不知道……你可能不知道底下的人騙你喔，你只知道他們沒有產橘子，他有產大麻，跟你們講，這個東西，底下的司長騙你的，我跟你講。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員的提醒，我們會多加注意。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員，部長請回。","接下來請李坤城委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054c210a2ea1ac4c1d197a8e48596ca3d6dfaa9d9f880c8c938f7e81291b4dfc0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:06:42 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謝謝主席我們先請教育部部長鄭部長那我們另外請這個衛福部的代表來另外請速發部的這個司長好 我們教育部然後國建署速發部"},{"start":24.983,"end":36.308,"text":"委員好好部長好那個一開始我現在針對今天是電子煙但是呢一開始我先討論一下這國人啊我們在這個所謂的紙煙的部分最近有一個國建省有一個調查"},{"start":38.164,"end":44.769,"text":"販售指煙給未成年人的通路業者的比例從近3年來,包含今年110、121、112這3年來大概都有3成的比例是違規賣給未成年人這是國有影子組的統計所以今天要討論電子煙之前,我們先講"},{"start":55.396,"end":55.836,"text":"是否能夠清楚?"},{"start":79.469,"end":104.661,"text":"跟委員報告這喬裝測試是我們從104年開始就跟消基會積極合作那從去年新法實施之後呢我們在喬裝測試裡面含電子煙跟所有的煙瓶都放成喬裝測試的部分但是因為市面上買不到電子煙所以未來就待會討論先講紫煙的部分對紫煙的部分就是用喬裝測試看到的結果就是這樣子那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":107.938,"end":114.542,"text":"其實如果在校園等於這三年來應該說我們講我們列出來我先不管104年啦我先講這近三年110、110、110這三年來等於這個三成的比例是沒有動的所以你的稽查稽查完做什麼事情跟委員報告這分校內校外校內我們的喬裝測試是瞭解它整個淹害的環境那根據我們也是這個調查報告就是2.4%的校園它是OK的"},{"start":134.753,"end":163.408,"text":"但是確實有17個校園就是我們最近兩波次的這個調查是需要改善的另外一個是在校園之外的店家泛煙的部分這我們也是積極查緝的一個重點來這樣喔因為校內當然是校規來處理這是教育部的事情但是校外我想很多問題都在校外啦我覺得老師教官都已經夠辛苦了你說這個他們的權利也有限那你要叫他們不能抽煙或是怎麼樣去抓一定的困難那我就想說在法律上面來講"},{"start":163.988,"end":185.05,"text":"除了稽查之外既然看到這個稽查的成果每年的成果數字沒有變動的情況下表示不管目前學校內或學校外做的工作是有限的嘛沒有什麼成效啊所以希望說是在法律上面第一個通路上面如果他繼續販賣未成年人我們在懲處上面禁止他販賣這機會有沒有可行性啊"},{"start":185.63,"end":188.692,"text":"通路上是不能販賣紫煙的是確定是不能販賣的所以他一定是在您提的這個PPT上面的這些商店來做實體販賣所以呢我們怎麼樣防範他放煙給未滿20歲的話這是我們查詢的重點"},{"start":202.52,"end":214.568,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來再來談到這個電子煙的問題這個依據你們今天的報告有沒有去目前今年目前為止52萬件電子煙查緝只有開罰1370件成案率只有0.26%我要問一下你們查緝52萬件這個查緝的作為你們怎麼查緝去哪裡查緝查出52萬件"},{"start":225.274,"end":245.165,"text":"其實其中的47萬是實體查查實體查查就是我們的縣市在聯合計查的時候會進到所有的商家來了解那3萬5千多件是網路查查這個剛好部長也了解一下這個國建署這邊也要了解一下既然這個電子煙目前最大的通路其實就不是實體通路"},{"start":245.865,"end":262.541,"text":"所以你們花了47萬件如果在實體通路上我想這個稽查我不能說無效但是我覺得方向有點錯誤最實際的做法應該是後面那位數位部剛剛所有委員都提到了目前我們在網路上面能夠買到這個電子煙我想前面很多委員也提到這件事情"},{"start":262.941,"end":275.523,"text":"包含昨天最新的這個新聞說你們針對高中生裁罰20萬那這實體的問題就是通路嘛剛委員提到啦那你們對於通路這種電子通路你們要怎麼去禁網你們要禁網嗎你們可以去禁嗎"},{"start":276.811,"end":293.99,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員的追詢那網路上的事情大概基本上就回到實體世界那有關ENK的部分大概是國建署的這個權責那我們現在協助大概有幾個地方第一個就是網路平台的限制瀏覽或移除這部分的話會建綠色通道"},{"start":295.411,"end":314.538,"text":"來 沒關係 因為我時間到了 我要先講之前這個創意司法的時候不管是數位部也好 衛福部也好 大家也是推來推去說因為法源怎麼樣怎麼樣 所以不能進但是輿論關心之後 馬上就能夠進了那今天我想問一下我們衛福部啊 我也問一下教育部電子煙是合法還是非法的"},{"start":316.016,"end":344.315,"text":"電子煙是非法他是非法的嘛既然他是非法的我想數位部你就應該可以直接把它禁掉啊不用等什麼公文不用等什麼執行啊報告委員那個基本上現在所有中華民國法律有談到所謂的停止解析的部分包含兒少性侵防治條例家暴防治法性侵害防治法還有所謂的現在最剛過的打詐犯罪不管我說那這個是以電子煙為例你們能不能直接去禁嘛所以衛福部不管禁外禁內"},{"start":345.296,"end":345.657,"text":"黃健豪主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":892,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時）謝謝主席。我們先請教育部鄭部長，另外請衛福部代表、數發部司長。"],["主席：好，我們請教育部、國健署、數發部。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。今天是針對電子煙，但是一開始我先討論一下國人在所謂的紙菸的部分，最近國健署有個調查是關於販售紙菸給未成年人的通路業者的比例，從近三年來，包含今年，110、111跟112這三年來，大概都有3成的比例違規賣給未成年人，這是國健署做的統計。所以今天要討論電子煙之前，我們先講，光是紙菸的管理，有明確通路的管理都變成這樣子，那我想問一下，後續教育部跟國健署到底要怎麼配合？過去每年都有3成的比例的紙菸被抽查出來，這個比例是長這樣子，那教育部有沒有掌握這個數字？這個數字到學校端是怎麼處理？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是能夠請……"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，喬裝測試是我們從104年開始就跟消基會積極合作，從去年新法實施之後，我們在喬裝測試裡面是含電子煙跟所有的菸品，都放成喬裝測試的部分，但是因為市面上買不到電子煙，所以未來……"],["黃委員健豪：這個待會會討論，先講紙菸的部分。"],["賈副署長淑麗：紙菸的部分就是用喬裝測試，看到的結果就是這樣子。"],["黃委員健豪：那怎麼辦呢？"],["賈副署長淑麗：其實如果在校園……"],["黃委員健豪：等於這三年來，應該說我們列出來……先不管104年，我先講近三年（110、111、112年），這三年來，等於這個3成的比例是沒有動的，所以你們稽查完做什麼事情？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，這分校內、校外，校內我們的喬裝測試是了解整個菸害的環境，根據我們這個調查報告，92.4%的校園是OK的，但是確實我們最近兩波次的調查顯示，有17個校園是需要改善的，另外一個是在校園之外的店家販菸的部分，這個也是我們積極查緝的重點。"],["黃委員健豪：校內的部分當然是以校規來處理，這是教育部的事情，但是校外的部分，我想很多問題都在校外，我覺得老師、教官都已經夠辛苦了，他們的權力也有限，你要叫他們不能抽菸，或是怎麼樣去抓，也有一定的困難。在法律上面來講，除了稽查之外，既然看到這個稽查的成果，每年的成果數字沒有變動的情況下，表示不管目前學校內或學校外做的工作是有限的嘛，沒有什麼成效啊！所以我希望在法律上面，第一個，通路上如果他繼續販賣給未成年人，我們在懲處上禁止他販賣，有沒有這個可行性？"],["賈副署長淑麗：通路上是不能販賣紙菸的，確定是不能販賣的，所以他一定是在您的PPT上面的這些商店來做實體販賣，所以我們怎麼樣防範他販菸給未滿20歲的人，這是我們查緝的重點。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。接下來再來談到電子煙的問題，依據你們今天的報告，從去年到目前為止，你們查緝電子煙52萬件，只有開罰1,370件，成案率只有0.26%。我要問一下，你們查緝52萬件，這個查緝的作為，你們是怎麼查緝？去哪裡查緝查出52萬件，怎麼做的？"],["賈副署長淑麗：其實其中的47萬件是實體查察，實體查察就是我們的縣市在聯合稽查的時候會進到所有的商家來了解，三萬五千多件是網路查察。"],["黃委員健豪：我想部長也了解一下，國健署這邊也要了解一下，電子煙目前最大的通路其實就不是實體通路。"],["賈副署長淑麗：是。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你們查了47萬件，如果是在實體通路上，我想這個稽查我不能說無效，但是我覺得方向有點錯誤，最實際的作法應該是由後面的那位數位部……剛剛所有委員都提到了，目前我們在網路上面能夠買到電子煙，我想前面很多委員也提到這件事情，包含昨天最新的新聞提到，你們針對高中生裁罰20萬，最實體的問題就是通路嘛，剛剛委員也提到了，那你們對於通路、這種電子通路，你們要怎麼去禁網？你們要禁網嗎？你們可以去禁嗎？"],["牛司長信仁：謝謝委員的垂詢。報告委員，網路上的事情，大概基本上都回到實體世界，有關菸害的部分，當然是國健署的權責，我們現在協助的大概有幾個地方，第一個就是網路平臺的限制瀏覽或移除，這部分的話會建立綠色通道。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，因為我的時間到了，我要先講，像之前的創意私房案，不管是數位部也好，衛福部也好，大家也是推來推去，說因為法源怎麼樣、怎麼樣，所以不能禁，但是輿論關心之後馬上就能夠禁了。今天我想問一下我們衛福部，也問一下教育部，電子煙是合法的還是非法的？"],["賈副署長淑麗：電子煙是非法。"],["黃委員健豪：它是非法的嘛。"],["賈副署長淑麗：是非法。"],["黃委員健豪：既然是非法，我想數位部就應該可以直接把它禁掉，不用等什麼公文、不用等什麼執行啊！"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，基本上，現在所有中華民國法律有談到所謂的停止解析，包含兒少性剝削防制條例、家暴防治法、性侵害防治法，還有現在剛通過的打詐犯罪……"],["黃委員健豪：不管，就以電子煙為例，你們能不能直接去禁？"],["牛司長信仁：所以衛福部……"],["黃委員健豪：不管境外、境內，像當初的創意私房，你也說是境外，所以沒辦法處理……"],["主席：黃健豪委員，因為時間到了，你們是不是會後再提供資料給黃健豪委員？"],["牛司長信仁：是。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們接下來有請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef05418fd79eef1cc6286be9b0bd4ecc214d5faa9d9f880c8c9387439805f15628b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:53:18 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38.662,"text":"有評估過嗎?因為任何的可能性不管是賀錦麗當選或是川普重返白宮都有評估過所以我想應該不至於說會有發生像上一次押寶明顯而導致於要修復關係的一個狀況但是現在大家也都很多委員大家都關心嘛現在"},{"start":39.833,"end":61.49,"text":"川普在上任之後他的所作所為跟四年前他第一任的時候可能也會有點不同因為畢竟世界環境也都在變但有些核心價值我想我們還是要堅守啊因為川普他之前當總統候選人選舉的期間啊其實不只一次公開發言攻擊我們台灣的奧運選手講說變性的疑雲啊"},{"start":65.182,"end":67.083,"text":"部長有沒有看到這樣的一個訊息?"},{"start":80.137,"end":106.707,"text":"奧運是全世界公認這是一個最高的一個運動競技的我們的林玉婷選手她拿到金牌奧運的資格也審查沒有問題了她是貨真價實的金牌選手嘛對不對那但是川普他在過去選舉的時候或甚至說選前造勢的時候都一而再再而三去提到這件事情我們沒有看到我們外交部有任何反應"},{"start":108.803,"end":125.257,"text":"我們就像我剛剛講的當然我們就是相信奧運的一個就是競賽的規則所得到的機會即便他是現在自由世界最高領導人即便他現在當選了但是他能夠用這樣似是而非的言論去攻擊我們的選手嗎"},{"start":126.536,"end":147.764,"text":"其實他沒有指名,但是因為他講的當然先前有一些脈絡,所以像路洪委員講的,我們就是捍衛我們這個台灣的奧運的這個選手,他們得到的獎牌啊。是,部長,所以捍衛我們的選手,如果說任何國家任何人講出是是非言論攻擊我們的選手,我們都應該要跳出來?"},{"start":149.906,"end":169.719,"text":"主張表達我們的立場是吧對就像委員現在問我我就是這樣表達是但是那川普現在講這樣的一個部分我們怎麼沒有看我們的駐美代表駐美辦事處有任何的一個回應因為他沒有就最近這次選舉他在那個場合我們要像經濟部長之前被問到的時候一樣經濟部長在被選友講是說要什麼台灣要付費經濟部長回應是說啊川普又沒有直接來問我"},{"start":179.304,"end":198.383,"text":"所以我不用回答他?可是他現在就是公開的在媒體上造勢是!是!那有任何人如果說他這樣子持續的攻擊我們難道不用去嚴正的立場表達嗎?所以川普沒有直接問你你就不用回應川普的話?"},{"start":199.159,"end":205.342,"text":"在選舉期間我每件事情我都要去回應嗎?他指到我們啊!如果你講最近這一次你要去詳細看他的文字"},{"start":210.725,"end":238.594,"text":"不會我的立場都很自然我們的選手我們新北的選手不管台灣的選手新北的選手都好他就是貨真價實的奧運金牌選手那為什麼會持續我們外交部過去到現在沒有任何溝通的部分嗎我們有沒有試著跟共和黨溝通試著跟川普陣營溝通就是說你影射的其實真的不是事實奧運也已經證明了"},{"start":239.554,"end":261.523,"text":"能不能不要再拿這樣的例子了?你要怎麼樣競選,那是你的競選的方式,我們尊重。因為我們本來也沒有辦法說服他們的選舉嘛。沒有沒有,他如果講不對的事情,我們也不能夠說就什麼尊重啊。我是說委員問我的表態是跟你一樣的啊。為什麼我們沒有任何的溝通管道去捍衛我們的主張呢?我們過去到現在有沒有試著跟共和黨溝通過?有沒有試著跟川普陣營溝通過?"},{"start":264.568,"end":286.807,"text":"沒有進行溝通,但是我們的態度很一致,很清楚,就是部長證實了,今天這個人如果說他是美國老大哥當選人,他講什麼東西似是而非即便是侮辱到我們的選手了,即便是影射到我們的選手了,我們沒有溝通"},{"start":288.064,"end":298.907,"text":"因為那個發言的脈絡請委員再去了解因為他沒有指明啦但是我也不是說沒有指明我們就不能夠表示我們的態度像委員問我我就是表示啊跟你一樣的態度啊部長我們今天站在同一個立場今天是我們任何一個選手選手沒有黨派"},{"start":309.366,"end":309.406,"text":"立陶宛"},{"start":333.865,"end":352.681,"text":"這個前兩天委員也有質詢也有請教到你你也說要極力的一個爭取因為說立陶宛現在可能會助立陶宛台灣代表處的這個名稱說要改變這是他們可能現在的新任的總統他們新任的總理來去做表示的那我們現在溝通的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":356.513,"end":358.554,"text":"有多少信心認為我們不會被改名?還是說有可能會被改名?"},{"start":386.823,"end":410.24,"text":"任何的改變都需要經過雙方的討論想要請教你說你們跟對方溝通現在他們的態度非常強硬他12月17號大選完還在籌組政府現在縣的政府是看守政府所以其實還沒有跟新的政府溝通他還沒有重申新的政府那你這樣子你在那邊一直我們住處都有跟他們這個跨黨的都有溝通那什麼時候會溝通"},{"start":415.505,"end":416.291,"text":"因為看起來這件事情是他們想要做"},{"start":419.423,"end":444.559,"text":"是所以什麼時候我們會溝通那你有多少把握認為是說這個名字不會被改掉還是說其實看起來新任政府上任了擋不住了因為我們可能跟過去的政府關係好一點所以現在新任政府上任之後我們沒有辦法沒有把握各位報告他現在政府還在籌組中他這個聯合政府會找哪一個政黨來加入也要等到確定是嗎部長這個是國安不能講還是說你現在還沒有掌握"},{"start":449.48,"end":450.4,"text":"但是重點是說到底我們有多少把握"},{"start":478.591,"end":497.719,"text":"總統待會我都強調一件事情對外交來講我多一分的寬容因為所有的第一線的外交人員在外面就是代表中華民國我們都是中華民國一份子沒有黨派之分但是重點是我們現在面臨到什麼樣的情況不要報喜不報憂不要每一次狀況發生了然後我們對國內都講說大內宣沒事沒事好像所有"},{"start":503.681,"end":532.984,"text":"全世界大家現在都很支持台灣獨立實際上沒有啊你們只是在偷渡你們政治意識形態啊那現在到底國際社會的現實怎麼樣你總是要讓我們國內大家了解啊所以這才是我現在問就是說你到底有多少把握還是三個月後、兩個月後等他們新任政府上任立陶宛這邊第一個當初2021年民進黨政府大內宣拍拍手駐台灣代表處駐立陶宛台灣代表處突然間換一個招牌"},{"start":533.724,"end":533.744,"text":"部長"},{"start":559.455,"end":560.056,"text":"部長,加油"},{"start":582.585,"end":582.805,"text":"謝謝你的支持"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":628,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時53分）謝謝主席，麻煩請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：林部長，我想賴清德政府對於川普重返白宮應該是有評估過，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：評估過嘛！因為任何的可能性，不管是賀錦麗當選或是川普重返白宮，都有評估過，所以我想應該不至於會發生像上一次押寶明顯而導致於要修復關係的狀況，但是現在很多委員大家都關心，川普在上任之後，他的所作所為跟4年前第一任的時候，可能也會有點不同，因為畢竟世界環境也都在變，但有些核心價值，我想我們還是要堅守。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為川普他之前當總統候選人選舉的期間，其實不只一次公開發言攻擊我們臺灣的奧運選手，說變性的疑雲，過去甚至在選舉前最後一天，在賓州搖擺州投票造勢的時候，他又再一次暗示講到奧運的資格可能是有問題，部長有沒有看到這樣的訊息？"],["林部長佳龍：奧運是全世界公認最高的運動競技……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們的林郁婷選手拿到金牌，奧運的資格審查也沒有問題，他是貨真價實的金牌選手嘛！對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是川普在過去選舉的時候，甚至選前造勢的時候，都一而再、再而三去提到這件事情，我們沒有看到外交部有任何反應耶！"],["林部長佳龍：就像我剛剛講的，當然我們就是相信奧運的一個競賽規則所得到的金牌啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！即便他是現在自由世界最高的領導人，他現在當選了，但是他能夠用這樣似是而非的言論去攻擊我們的選手嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為他沒有指名，但是因為他講的先前有一些脈絡，所以如洪委員講的，我們就是捍衛臺灣奧運的選手……"],["洪委員孟楷：我不知道……"],["林部長佳龍：他們得到的獎牌啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是，部長，所以捍衛我們的選手，如果說有任何國家、任何人講出似是而非的言論攻擊我們的選手，我們都應該要跳出來，澄清、主張、表達我們的立場，是吧？"],["林部長佳龍：對，就像委員現在問我，我就是這樣表達。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是川普現在講這樣的部分，我們怎麼沒有看到我們的駐美代表、駐美辦事處有任何的回應？任何的澄清？"],["林部長佳龍：就最近這次選舉，他在那個場合，他沒有講到……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們要像經濟部長之前被問到的時候一樣，經濟部長在備詢時被問到臺灣要付費的問題，經濟部長回應說：川普又沒有直接來問我，所以我不用回答他。"],["林部長佳龍：我們的立場很一致而且很清楚……"],["洪委員孟楷：可是他現在就是公開的在媒體上造勢……"],["林部長佳龍：我們的是貨真價實的奧運金牌選手。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，如果任何人這樣子持續攻擊，我們難道不去表達嚴正的立場嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：如果委員問我，我就在這裡表達啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以川普沒有直接問你，你就不用回應川普的話？"],["林部長佳龍：在選舉期間，每件事情我都要去回應嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：他指到我們啊！重點是他指到我們。"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，如果你講最近這一次，你要去詳細看他的文字……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你不覺得這樣子是唾面自乾嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：人家都已經說到我們的選手……"],["林部長佳龍：我的立場都很一致啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：我們新北的選手，不管臺灣的選手、新北選手都好，他就是貨真價實的奧運金牌選手嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對啊，我們雙十國慶還請他們到總統府……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們外交部過去到現在沒有任何溝通的部分嗎？我們有沒有試著跟共和黨溝通？試著跟川普陣營溝通？就說你影射的其實真的不是事實，奧運也已經證明了，能不能不要再拿這樣的例子了？你要怎麼樣競選，那是你的競選的方式，我們尊重，因為我們本來也沒有辦法涉入他們的選舉嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，沒有，他們如果講不對的事情，我們也不能夠說就什麼尊重，我是說如果委員問我對它的表態，我是跟你一樣的啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！但是為什麼我們沒有任何的溝通管道去捍衛我們的主張呢？我們過去到現在，有沒有試著跟共和黨溝通過？有沒有試著跟川普陣營溝通過？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有就這件事情溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有溝通！"],["林部長佳龍：但是我們的態度很一致、很清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有溝通！這就是部長證實了……"],["林部長佳龍：我們相信奧運，也捍衛我們的金牌……"],["洪委員孟楷：今天這個人如果他是美國老大哥、當選人，他講什麼東西似是而非，即便是侮辱到我們的選手了，即便是影射到我們選手了，我們沒有溝通，這樣對嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：那個發言的脈絡，請委員再去瞭解，因為他沒有指名啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣對嗎？這樣對嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：但是我也不是說沒有指名，我們就不能夠表示我們的態度，像委員問我，我就是表示啊！跟你一樣的態度啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們今天站在同一個立場，今天我們任何一個選手，選手沒有黨派，都是我們中華民國的選手，今天有任何一個選手真的這樣子被攻擊了，我真的呼籲外交部不要因為攻擊的人是美國，我們自己就矮一半，膝蓋就軟一半，腰桿就軟一半。"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！我們都勇敢做自己啊，走向全世界啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我再請教立陶宛，前兩天委員質詢也有請教到你，你也說要極力爭取，因為現在駐立陶宛臺灣代表處的這個名稱說要改變，這是他們現在新任的總統……"],["林部長佳龍：總理。"],["洪委員孟楷：新任的總理表示的。"],["林部長佳龍：他現在內閣還在籌組中，還沒有定啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：對，我們現在溝通的狀況怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：溝通狀況？"],["洪委員孟楷：我們掌握的狀況怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這是當時臺立雙方的共識……"],["洪委員孟楷：有多少信心？2021年……"],["林部長佳龍：如果有不同的想法或怎麼樣，我們當然要去溝通啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，你講了嘛，2021年我們雙方的共識，所以說有第一個駐立陶宛臺灣代表處，而不是用臺北代表處，對不對？我現在想請教的是，你經過這一段時間的溝通，現在掌握的狀況，有多少信心認為我們不會被改名？還是說有可能會被改名？"],["林部長佳龍：任何的改變都需要經過雙方的討論，因為這先前是我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，所以我想要請教你，你們跟對方溝通，現在他們的態度是非常強硬還是有得溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：因為現在10月27號大選完，還在籌組政府，現在的政府是看守政府，交接期……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以其實還沒有跟新的政府溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：還沒有產生新的政府。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！這樣子，你在那邊一直講有溝通……"],["林部長佳龍：我們的駐處跟他們跨黨的都有溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們持續……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為看起來這件事情是他們想要做喔！"],["林部長佳龍：對啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以什麼時候我們會溝通？你有多少把握認為這個名字不會被改掉？還是其實看起來新任政府上任了，擋不住了，因為我們可能跟過去的政府關係好一點，所以現在新的政府上任之後，我們沒有辦法、沒有把握會被改名？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，現在政府還在籌組中，這個聯合政府會找哪一個政黨來加入，也要等到確定……"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！部長，這個是……"],["林部長佳龍：因為找不同的政黨加入後會有不同的方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這個是國安不能講，還是你現在還沒有掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：有，都有掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實本席問的事情都很中肯，而且也是社會大眾、臺灣所有民眾都關心的議題，身為外交部長在這邊，我不知道你每一次實問都虛答……"],["林部長佳龍：不會喔，你問我，我很實的在答，委員也不是第一次問我，對不對？"],["洪委員孟楷：我不是第一次問你，從交通問到外交啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我當交通部長，你關心很多議題，我都有具體，我當外交部長也是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重點是到底我們有多少把握？從頭到尾我都強調一件事情，對外交來講，我多一分的寬容。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為所有第一線的外交人員，在外面就是代表中華民國，我們都是中華民國一分子，沒有黨派之分。但重點是我們現在面臨到什麼樣的情況，不要報喜不報憂，不要每一次狀況發生了，然後我們對國內都大內宣：沒事，沒事！好像全世界大家現在都很支持臺灣獨立，實際上沒有啊！你們只是在偷渡你們的政治意識形態，現在到底國際社會的現實怎麼樣，你總是要讓我們國內大家瞭解啊！所以我現在問你到底有多少把握？還是三個月後、兩個月後，等他們新任政府上任，立陶宛這邊，第一個，當初2021年民進黨政府大內宣，然後拍拍手，駐立陶宛臺灣代表處突然間換一個招牌，又換回來了！"],["林部長佳龍：因為這是臺立雙方透過政府所達成的共識，才有設處的名稱嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在沒有把握維持不變？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然是要維持不變啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：那有多少把握？"],["林部長佳龍：我們相信透過雙邊溝通，希望能夠不受任何的影響。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你真的是實問虛答！"],["林部長佳龍：你問我假設性的問題，我當然是要假設……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，這不是假設的問題，多少把握這哪裡假設？多少把握只存在在你心裡，多少把握只存在在我們現在掌握的情報……"],["林部長佳龍：沒有啦，多少把握就變成好像有模糊空間……"],["洪委員孟楷：多少把握只存在在我們現在的國際現實到底是怎麼樣，這不是假設問題，部長，加油！中華民國靠各位外交同仁，但是絕對不是拿外交出口轉內銷，我們不要自我麻痺，政治意識形態真的可以放一邊，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝你的支持。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，部長請回。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054933516aa50fe257e97a8e48596ca3d6dfaa9d9f880c8c938ccd2a6181ac5a76e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:57:10 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總質詢的時候就針對電子煙還有伊脫米子相關的危害有做出了質詢那我先請教一下國建署按照110年的資料國內你們推估大概有超過7.9萬名的青少年使用電子煙7.9萬這是110年那有沒有最新的資料"},{"start":42.026,"end":58.163,"text":"跟委員報告最新的資料我們會在11月底12月初公佈那目前看起來這個人數有增加嗎目前我初步看到的這個資料跟上一步的調查的資料趨勢是一樣的趨勢就是增加嗎"},{"start":66.181,"end":85.314,"text":"電子煙使用率愈來愈加、愈增加最主要就是它在網絡上真的很容易取得我們看一下我在網絡上打電子煙其實第一個出來是國民健康署的電子煙防治專區可是接下來都是說電子煙怎麼買、官網在哪裡我請一下要抒發布"},{"start":90.478,"end":97.545,"text":"這個其實打電子音你們都知道嘛那這個看到這個網站這個如入無人之境那到底我們有沒有在管理啊"},{"start":98.6,"end":124.205,"text":"報告委員有關於電子煙的查處的工作是國建署的業務那我們現在也積極在協助這個接觸上是你們在做處理的嘛你們有分這個境內跟境外的嘛對不對報告委員有關於點TW的部分我們目前為了配合這個國建署已經有移送了178件的案件那境外的部分呢境外的部分的話那如果國建署因為我們跟衛福部有參與那你先跟我講好了我現在看到這個齁"},{"start":125.265,"end":127.886,"text":"點TW是國建署5月的時候召開會議要求台灣NIC6月7月兩次會議之後呢在8月份台灣NIC點TW全數下架88件"},{"start":153.692,"end":170.885,"text":"我先說明那現在網路上出現的這些都是境外的都是境外網域境外網域的部分最近上次未完委員會之後我們拜訪點TW我們大概會積極朝向限制解析的方式來做一些處理那我們會在這個更有結論的時候來跟委員做說明"},{"start":172.946,"end":198.179,"text":"現在上次有提到說一些網路平台像Google或是Meta甚至像TikTok他們其實在11月1號他們都已經有設立法人代表了對不對這是書發部的書發部對不對報委員這部分我大概請我們素產署的副署長回答一下他馬上就這應該有確定因為你們電耐是10月31號嘛因為是他的業務我不是非常清楚"},{"start":200.898,"end":227.679,"text":"來來來說明一下是不是在10月31號都有完成這個指定法律的代表登記報告是的有嗎有有有對啊所以說如果說這個他們在這個網路平台上面那有這個違法的話我們找得到法律代表嘛對不對是好啊那這個國建署這部分呢其實我們已經開始進行這些相關違規的這些裁處了對啊那現在就是說"},{"start":228.973,"end":253.682,"text":"因為你已經有涉法律代表了那其實你去找說這個究責對象其實會更明確啦那可是呢就按照這個剛剛訴發部所講的齁如果我們要這個境外網站要封網的條件呢一個是經法院的判決跟裁定第二個是要經過行政機關的處分嘛對不對那現在法院判決又曠日飛時那行政機關的處分的話是不是能夠再加快勒"},{"start":254.162,"end":273.182,"text":"是 沒錯 跟委員報告我們也跟22個縣市在討論現在已經有行政處分的話能不能盡速依行政法第36條移送給塔巴尼克做停滯解析的動作那大概那個時間咧我們大概一個月內一定會有一個具體的報告再跟委員做說明"},{"start":274.007,"end":295.892,"text":"對,我是希望說,第一個,境外的這些網路平台,他們都是用這些網路平台在賣嘛,那所以在臺灣已經適合法律代表了,那所以說在責任上面我覺得要加重,那第二個就是說,這個我們如果要封網,那當然有一定的法律程序,在行政機關處分這方面,那它的速度是不是真的加快,程序是不是能夠縮短,"},{"start":296.832,"end":305.828,"text":"那如果這樣子的話是不是在這個11月底能夠有一個更清楚的一個這個程序跟他的做法再讓本席知道?是的,謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時51分）謝謝主席。我們請教育部長、國健署副署長，還有數發部代表。"],["主席：請以上三位。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝部長，辛苦了。其實我在總質詢的時候針對電子煙，還有依托咪酯的相關危害提出質詢。我先請教國健署，按照110年的資料，你們推估國內大概有超過7.9萬名的青少年使用電子煙……"],["賈副署長淑麗：7.9萬。"],["李委員坤城：這是110年的，有沒有最新的資料？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，最新資料我們會在11月底、12月初公布。"],["李委員坤城：目前看起來人數有增加嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：目前我初步看到的資料，跟上一波調查資料的趨勢是一樣的。"],["李委員坤城：趨勢？趨勢是增加嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：大概的比率差不多。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就等著看11月的報告了。"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，11月報告才會出來。"],["李委員坤城：電子煙的使用率越來越增加，最主要原因在於很容易在網路上取得。我們看一下，我在網路搜尋打上「電子煙」，其實第一個跑出的是國民健康署的電子煙防制專區，但接下來的卻都是電子煙要怎麼買，官網在哪裡。我請問數發部，對電子煙、對這些網站如入無人之境，到底有沒有在管理？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，有關電子煙的查處工作是國健署業務，我們現在也積極在協助……"],["李委員坤城：但技術上是你們在處理的，你們有分境內跟境外的，對不對？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，有關於「.tw」的部分，我們為了配合國健署，已經移送了178件案件……"],["李委員坤城：境外部分呢？"],["牛司長信仁：境外部分的話，如果國健署……因為我們跟衛福部有長期合作……"],["李委員坤城：你先跟我講，我現在在網路上看到的這些網站要怎麼處理？"],["牛司長信仁：對這些網站要怎麼處理，可能還是要問國健署如何處理，我們在數發部……"],["李委員坤城：副署長，怎麼處理？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，有關「.tw」，國健署在5月召開會議，要求TWNIC於6月、7月兩次會議之後，TWNIC在8月份下架「.tw」88件。我先說明……"],["李委員坤城：像現在網路上出現的這些都是境外的？"],["賈副署長淑麗：都是境外網域。針對境外網域部分，上次衛環委員會之後，我們拜訪「.tw」，我們會積極朝限制解析的方式來做一些處理，待更有結論時再來跟委員做說明。"],["李委員坤城：上次有提到，這些網路平台像Google或Meta，甚至像TikTok，他們其實從11月1日起都已經設立法律代表了，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：這是數發部的業務。"],["李委員坤城：數發部，對不對？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，這部分問題我請數產署副署長回答。他馬上就……"],["李委員坤城：這一定要確定，因為你們的deadline是10月31日？"],["牛司長信仁：這部分是他的業務，我不是非常清楚。"],["李委員坤城：好，來說明一下是不是在10月31日都完成指定的法律代表登記？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是的。"],["李委員坤城：有？"],["陳副署長慧敏：有、有。"],["李委員坤城：如果他們在網路平台上違法的話，我們就找得到法律代表，對不對？"],["陳副署長慧敏：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以國健署呢？"],["賈副署長淑麗：其實我們已經開始針對相關的違規情形進行裁處了。"],["李委員坤城：既然已經設法律代表，所以要找究責對象會更明確……"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：按照剛剛數發部所講的，如果我們要把境外網站封網，條件是經法院的判決跟裁定，再來就是要經過行政機關的處分，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：可是法院判決曠日廢時，所以行政機關的處分是不是能夠再加快？"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒錯，跟委員報告，我們也跟22縣市在討論，現在已經有行政處分的話，能不能儘速依行政法第三十六條移送給TWNIC做停止解析。"],["李委員坤城：大概的時間呢？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們大概一個月內一定會有具體報告出來，屆時再跟委員說明。"],["李委員坤城：我希望：第一個，他們都是用這些境外的網路平台販賣，既然在臺灣已經設有法律代表了，所以在責任上我覺得要加重。"],["賈副署長淑麗：裁罰一定會。"],["李委員坤城：第二個，如果要封網，當然要有一定的法律程序，因此行政機關處分的速度是不是能加快？程序是不是能縮短？"],["賈副署長淑麗：可以。"],["李委員坤城：這樣子在11月底是不是能有更清楚的……"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒問題。"],["李委員坤城：程序跟作法，屆時再讓本席知道。"],["賈副署長淑麗：是的。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","接下來我們有請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0546c66fad7ef77a14213be6769c271087bdf3ad428b0eec556d5f0a589f4d4aac65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:51:51 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各位先進有請經貿辦的副總代表、延副總代表還有經濟部的郭部長還有農業部的杜次長、國安會的副組委好不好 幾位掌管理長"},{"start":30.233,"end":43.167,"text":"我先請教經貿辦的這個現在CPTPP我們每天在講甚至於在上一次這個萊豬的公投的時候還有我們的外交部的長官"},{"start":46.951,"end":68.009,"text":"還說吃了萊豬可以加入CPTPP吃了日本核食可以加入CPTPP結果都吃了 都喝了 結果什麼都沒有你們跟我們講現在進度怎麼樣 有沒有工作小組請問你 有沒有工作小組好 到目前為止我們接觸的結果應該是還沒有任何應該是所有的新成員國最樂觀什麼時候"},{"start":72.779,"end":79.201,"text":"為什麼英國跟我們同時間申請?英國已經加入啦!阿台灣咕咕咕阿,什麼都沒有阿!說BGP!這個講起來是很讓人生氣阿!阿現在來說也是說CPTPP多重要就多重要!阿結果什麼進度都沒有!"},{"start":100.96,"end":129.412,"text":"前面的兩年實際上CPTPP的成員都在處理英國的入會案啊對英國為什麼就可以呢我們同時間送件的呢請問你是不是中國大陸的代啊 有嗎現在這些成員他們只是在用三個原則在判斷所以都沒有嘛那川普當選以後大家都知道啦那更困難啦因為他原來TPP的時候他說要退出啦我們都很清楚啊來我請教部長啊"},{"start":131.298,"end":156.036,"text":"請教部長先請教副總代表加入CPTPP我們的整個關稅可以省多少?關稅可以省多少?如果加入的話我們的關稅?對,到會員國、其他國家關稅可以省多少?"},{"start":157.659,"end":183.425,"text":"你也不知道,來這裡都沒準備好不好,請這部長來,先你才知道,審理人關稅可以省多少關稅應該不是這個最主要的目的當然是主要目的啊,怎麼不是呢如果是CPTPP應該就是最惠國的關稅嘛對啊,就是最惠國關稅,別人先省啊我就很具體的問你一個東西啦請問你現在,我們的進口車的關稅有多少,幾%請問,部長,國務長"},{"start":188.264,"end":214.962,"text":"進口車的關稅多少?我們大概CPTPP的國家現在有15%的產品需要繳納關稅目前大概都是在石化、鋼鐵、金屬、紡織等產業那這些大部分都是在越南、日本跟墨西哥的市場我時間因為馬上被主席控制了你跟我講一個東西現在的進口車的關稅多少?"},{"start":216.798,"end":225.48,"text":"進口車的關稅是17%日本零關稅美國2.5%我就問部長為了要我們這個能夠來拖一把加入CPTPP請問加入CPTPP是好的嗎對不對好不好我沒有這方面的專業"},{"start":246.786,"end":249.335,"text":"好吧這個經濟部長這樣那我就問你"},{"start":251.24,"end":278.459,"text":"你要不要主張我們降進口車的關稅來幫忙幫一把可以讓我們國家比較順利的加入CPTPP可以這樣講嗎任何幫助國家加入CPTPP的產業我們都盡全力來協助就包括進口車的降關稅所有的產業只要能夠讓我們加入CPTPP我們都盡全力來扶持"},{"start":279.059,"end":280.264,"text":"主席站起來我不要浪費時間謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時46分）謝謝主席、各位先進，有請經貿辦的顏副總代表。"],["主席：經貿辦顏副總代表。"],["賴委員士葆：還有經濟部的郭部長。"],["主席：經濟部郭部長。"],["賴委員士葆：還有農業部的次長。"],["主席：杜次長。"],["賴委員士葆：國發會的副主委，幾位長官一起。"],["主席：高副主委。"],["賴委員士葆：我先請教經貿辦，現在CPTPP每天在講，甚至上一次萊豬公投的時候，外交部的長官還說吃了萊豬可以加入CPTPP，吃了日本核食可以加入CPTPP，結果都吃了、都喝了，卻什麼都沒有，你們跟我們講，現在進度怎麼樣？有沒有工作小組？請問你們有沒有工作小組？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：好，到目前為止……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們接觸的結果，應該是還沒有任何……"],["賴委員士葆：還沒有？最快什麼時候？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：應該所有的新成員國都還沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：最樂觀是什麼時候？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為它是共識決的決定，我們現在還沒有聽到任何的新申請國……"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼英國跟我們同時間申請，英國已經加入了，臺灣「咕咕咕」啊！什麼都沒有啊！講了老半天，這個講起來很令人生氣啊！現在也說CPTPP多重要又重要，結果什麼進度都沒有？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：實際上前面兩年，CPTPP的成員都在處理英國的入會。"],["賴委員士葆：對，英國為什麼可以呢？我們同時間送件的耶！請問你是不是受中國大陸的打壓，有嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：現在這些成員，他們只是在用三個原則在判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：所以都沒有嘛，川普當選以後大家都知道更困難啦！因為原來TPP的時候都要退出了，我們都很清楚啊！來，我請教部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，您是說中國的問題？"],["賴委員士葆：先請教副總代表好了，加入CPTPP，我們整個關稅可以省多少？關稅可以省多少？如果加入的話。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們的關稅？"],["賴委員士葆：不是，會員國、其他國家的關稅可以省多少？你不知道？來這裡都沒有準備啊！那我請教部長，生意人比較知道，來！生意人，關稅可以省多少？"],["郭部長智輝：關稅應該不是最主要的目的。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是主要目的啊，怎麼不是呢？"],["郭部長智輝：如果是CPTPP，應該就是最惠國的關稅嘛。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，就是最惠國關稅，彼此之間省啊，我很具體的問你一個東西，請問一下，我們進口車的關稅多少，是百分之幾？請問郭部長，進口車的關稅多少？"],["郭部長智輝：CPTPP的國家，現在15%的產品需要繳納關稅。"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["郭部長智輝：目前大概都是在石化、鋼鐵、金屬、紡織等產業，這些大部分都是在越南、日本及墨西哥的市場。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，因為我的時間馬上被主席控制了，你跟我講一個東西，現在進口車的關稅多少？進口車。"],["郭部長智輝：進口車的關稅是17%。"],["賴委員士葆：17.5%。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：日本0關稅，美國2.5%，我就問部長，為了要能夠推一把加入CPTPP，請問加入CPTPP是好的，對不對？好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有這方面的專業。"],["賴委員士葆：這個經濟部長這樣……我就問你，你要不要主張我們降進口車的關稅，來幫一把讓我們國家比較順利的加入CPTPP？可以這樣講嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：任何幫助國家加入CPTPP的產業，我們都盡全力來協助。"],["賴委員士葆：包括進口車的降關稅？"],["郭部長智輝：所有的產業，只要能夠讓我們加入CPTPP，我們都盡全力來扶持。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，主席站起來了，我不要浪費他時間。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員精準的發言，謝謝，官員請回座。我自己一直認為遵守會議發言時間是國會議員基本的素養，主持會議的公正也是主席該做的事情，我一向貫徹，我也希望各位同仁能夠尊重主席，尊重其他發言委員的權益，也讓會議能夠順利來進行。好，我們繼續質詢。","李坤城，李坤城，李坤城不在。","下一位質詢請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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以往美方過去重申我們的是臺灣關係法、美中三公"},{"start":36.556,"end":36.576,"text":"請說明"},{"start":58.532,"end":72.853,"text":"跟委員說明我想美台關係在過去制定台灣關係法之後也歷經很多次他們政黨輪替我們可以發現他的一致性跟延續性所以在這個基礎上那當然行政立法兩個部門"},{"start":74.535,"end":74.555,"text":"美國總統楊瓊瓔"},{"start":99.187,"end":117.548,"text":"多邊主義可能比較保守會強調就是以美國為中心的雙邊這個主義當然是不是能夠到有一些是單邊的主義這涉及到對於特定的議題我想川普總統他的"},{"start":118.609,"end":139.582,"text":"楊瓊瓔"},{"start":139.902,"end":152.379,"text":"並不是只有抗中因為美台關係其實互相之間要去協調我想在這個方面我們的外交空間可以因應新的變局"},{"start":156.284,"end":172.756,"text":"還是我對美台關係的一個發展是建立在這樣一個一致性跟延續性的一個判斷上那我們要因應他新總統的這個領導作風跟他的政策的重點要做一些因應的調整"},{"start":174.039,"end":200.426,"text":"本席之所以給部長充分的時間來說明但是本席還是要提醒部長因為川普的外交政策就正如你剛才說的他是偏向在美國的孤立而且他是保護主義者非常強烈反中自中的氛圍當然是一貫性但是我要提醒的是反中不代表他就是有台你可以"},{"start":202.012,"end":218.088,"text":"認同這句話嗎?對,這個不等同。不等同。好,我們理念一致的時候,我首先要請問你,川普在這個競選的時候拋出一個台灣保護會,他說軍費要增加到GPT的10%的這個說法,你認為呢?你認為呢?我想這個怎麼去解讀,是。"},{"start":225.046,"end":227.707,"text":"本期用實際的數字告訴你2025年明年的預算我們增加了7.7%"},{"start":249.331,"end":277.37,"text":"6千多億在國防預算在這個那佔我們的總比GBT的2.45%如果說陳禄他說的要10%GDP的10%等於26兆的2.6兆那我方怎麼應對請教也就是他希望我們再增加我們告訴他我們過去有增加未來也會再增加未來會增加那至於說因為我們增加的這一個之後我們一定會增加"},{"start":278.51,"end":290.141,"text":"我想除了中共的這個中共的這個軍事威脅越來越大我們當然相對在國防的預算的支出也會增加嘛這是為了我們自己啊我們好好討論也就是說"},{"start":294.005,"end":320.723,"text":"川普上任之後他之前所說的發表的言論那我們很緊張如果說要達到GPT的10%等於2.6兆那絕對會排擠到我們的社福啊我們的經濟啊等等對不對你認同那所以您剛才的說法就是說川普上任之後那麼我們的國防預算應該會增加是不是如此我們就持續在增加所以會增加嘛是不是"},{"start":321.543,"end":338.964,"text":"明年的預算就增加,後面的趨勢也是如此所以我要注意的就是說,我們不要排擠到,如果真的一直持續的增加當然這個是總統的職權,那麼一直在增加的時候,如果真的達到他的10%,你認為會不會?"},{"start":341.101,"end":341.421,"text":"他提出了10%我方會接受嗎?"},{"start":356.448,"end":383.453,"text":"沒有,他不是正式的提出,那個是一個方向啦好,就這個方向我請部長你也相識的去看川普時代那麼我們台美關係我們會怎麼樣的走向當然你身為部長這個是非常重要的工作所以本期要請教那麼在昨天你們是不是外交部有政府跟總統有所建議在川普時代呢那麼你們討論到台美關係有沒有提醒"},{"start":384.293,"end":412.734,"text":"建議總統,我們必須方向是如何呢?有沒有?昨天有沒有討論?有,我們本來週三也都有一些固定的會議也有討論那其中有沒有建議總統說川普上任了他的方向跟之前的政府是不太一樣的而且對台灣目前川普的團隊裡頭以及現在的團隊大概一定是不一樣的那有沒有建議總統要關注在哪一個部分呢?請教部長"},{"start":413.973,"end":428.962,"text":"新美台的關係一方面我想他重視選舉期間的一些訴求投資美國昨天你們有告訴總統建議總統我們必須要關注我們有報告也有在書面的報告上面當然總統也對外有發表"},{"start":434.568,"end":440.415,"text":"對川普總統的恭賀以外對美台關係的一個方向的宣示"},{"start":444.574,"end":447.675,"text":"2016年12月2日到2017年1月20日,川普在競選上一任時,蔡英文總統跟他打了電話。這次在外交部會不會安排賴總統跟準總統通電話?"},{"start":468.985,"end":470.246,"text":"深化雙邊的經濟貿易關係在我們的整個臺美21世紀的貿易倡議當中非常重要"},{"start":485.553,"end":512.007,"text":"這個倡議當中總共有11項包括辯解法規、農業、反貪污等等11項那麼臺美在去年6月份的時候華虎簽署了首批的協定那麼有望在今年年底要生效是不是啊對就是那個First Agreement今年底會生效那請問川普上台之後你們掌控的情資會不會有所影響會不會"},{"start":513.417,"end":519.201,"text":"第二階段因為已經談判到一個階段了後面的二三階段我們必須因應他的對貿易的主張"},{"start":529.724,"end":546.982,"text":"在做一些談判這個部分目前第二階段大部分的項目也已經有了公示那你認為目前談判以及川普當選那會不會影響到我們年底要生效"},{"start":548.104,"end":564.686,"text":"年底的生效是已經確定的啦就是美方我想在拜登政府還任內嘛還沒有到新政府上任那就是這有分階段所以我們在第二階段"},{"start":565.697,"end":589.842,"text":"很多共識也已經有了但是能不能把它完成我們還要再跟新政府來談部長我想這個是你負責任的一個談法所以本席剛開始也希望我們好不容易在去年6月份所簽訂那今年年底呢一定務必要達陣成功因為接下來所面臨的挑戰跟現在的政府有很多的方向似乎有所不同"},{"start":590.842,"end":607.213,"text":"對,我們要鞏固一些美台關係在拜登總統任內已經有共識的項目那另外除了美台21世紀貿易商業就是避免雙重瞌睡那我們也期待說在美國大選完之後到這個交接期間他們國會也是會開議能夠把它順利的完成"},{"start":611.175,"end":631.59,"text":"所以我要給你一句話也就是說我希望的我們當然我們要鞏固我們的安全但是我們也不能讓人家予取予求作為一個交易的籌碼這個變化就請部長要說一定是我們以國家的安全跟這個人民的利益為依據"},{"start":632.771,"end":634.353,"text":"主席我最後邀請一下我們陸委會"},{"start":663.982,"end":681.401,"text":"我剛剛在經濟委員會特別提出川普時代老一齡出口的國家是壓力很大因為他是高關稅這樣的一個情況之下對台目前他宣示60%對其他的國家10到20%"},{"start":682.742,"end":709.765,"text":"那我請教我們我國目前的狀態我們所會受影響的那麼我們的郭部長直接回答本席說臺商影響最大臺商影響最大你認為郭部長回答的這一句話高關稅對大陸川普政府他目前規劃的是60%你認為郭部長說的對臺商的影響最大這一句話你的解讀呢"},{"start":711.291,"end":728.79,"text":"我沒有仔細看郭部長的講話但是如果假設美國真的對大陸的商品提高到60%的話那因為我們台灣有很多高科技廠商是在大陸生產然後出口到美國的所以確實會對台灣的"},{"start":731.612,"end":747.797,"text":"在大陸投資的這些廠商會有影響那這也會影響到說這些廠商會不會繼續留在大陸繼續生產的問題所以他可能會留到印度、越南或是回到台灣都有可能"},{"start":748.217,"end":751.54,"text":"因為郭部長有講了一句話我再請外交部長回答我一句話因為郭部長說什麼呢說因應這個方向有一個他的方法就是境外"},{"start":775.828,"end":777.369,"text":"有關委員這個政策我們現在佈局基本上就是"},{"start":796.883,"end":811.898,"text":"我們怎麼樣去把我們的領先優勢確保,然後去布局全球。所以半導體來講,我們現在也有一個晶片戰略啊,就技術深耕台灣,產線布局全球。我們不是被迫什麼China plus one,台灣 plus one,我們要台灣plus n。"},{"start":814.64,"end":830.17,"text":"郭部長已經說了境外轉產的概念所以在這種情況之下因為你是外交部長我要告訴你這個訊息本席告訴你這個訊息到時候我們的廠商要到世界各國去的時候外交部要發揮你的能力"},{"start":832.551,"end":835.333,"text":"臺灣政府也扮演一個角色,類似這個例子,日本也是,美國也同樣,大概以這樣的方式,我們不要把這個供應鏈的重組當威脅,要當作一個我們佈局全球的職位"},{"start":854.005,"end":855.889,"text":"至於說布局全球,台商都已經在布局全球了。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":544,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時32分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。邀請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們首先來討論昨天川普當選了，臺美關係會如何，指標又是為何。我們看到臺美關係的走向，以往美方重申我們的是臺灣關係法、美中三公報以及美國對我們有6項保證為基本的一中政策的說法，所以首先請教部長，在他當選之後、就任之後會不會有所改變？我們的看法，在指標方面，以什麼為指標來看他的變動？請說明。"],["林部長佳龍：是，跟委員說明，我想美臺關係在過去制定臺灣關係法之後，也歷經很多次他們政黨輪替，我們可以發現它有它的一致性跟延續性，所以在這個基礎上，當然行政、立法兩個部門，我們就是怎麼樣來鞏固甚至拓展美臺的關係。至於新政府的作法，外界大概都有所報導，就是更強調美國優先，然後會用一些經濟工具作為外交的手段；然後在國際政治上，就是對於多邊主義可能比較保守，會強調以美國為中心的雙邊主義，當然，有一些是單邊主義，這涉及到對於特定的議題，我想川普總統的政策主張，我們大概有通盤地針對他的外交政策，因為基本上我覺得他關注還是對中國，一個體制挑戰者，抗中這個方向甚至會有過之而不及，可是在美臺關係上，並不是只有抗中，也有美臺關係，其實互相之間要去協調，我想在這個方面，我們的外交空間可以因應新的變局，我對美臺關係的發展是建立在這樣一致性跟延續性的判斷上，我們要因應新總統的領導作風跟他的政策重點，要做一些因應的調整。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席給部長充分的時間說明，但是本席還是要提醒部長，因為川普的外交政策就誠如你剛才說的，他是偏向在美國的孤立，而且他是保護主義者，非常強烈，反中、制中的氛圍當然是一貫性，但是我要提醒的是，反中不代表他就是友臺，你可以認同這句話嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，這個不等同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不等同，好，我們理念一致的時候，我首先要請問你，川普在競選的時候拋出一個臺灣保護費，他說軍費要增加到GDP的10%的這個說法，你認為呢？我方怎麼應對？"],["林部長佳龍：我想這個怎麼去解讀……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，請說。"],["林部長佳龍：好，就是所謂的保護費，他也不是用這個字啦，就是臺灣也要為自己的國防安全付費，我們也說我們也是有付費，因為臺灣跟美日的情況不一樣……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的付費到目前為止，部長……"],["林部長佳龍：不是駐軍，不是說花它的預算。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席用實際的數字告訴你，2025年、明年的預算，我們增加了7.7%，六千多億。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國防預算，占我們的總體GDP的2.45%，如果誠如他說的要GDP的10%，等於26兆的2.6兆，那我方怎麼應對？請教。"],["林部長佳龍：好，也就是他希望我們再增加，我們也告訴他，我們過去有增加，未來也會再增加。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：未來還會增加？"],["林部長佳龍：至於說因為我們增加的這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認為川普上任了之後我們一定會增加？"],["林部長佳龍：我想隨著中共的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：至於增加的比例……"],["林部長佳龍：中共的軍事威脅越來越大，我們當然相對在國防的預算支出也會增加嘛！這是為了我們自己啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我再確認一件事情，部長，我們好好討論，也就是說川普上任之後，他之前所發表的言論，我們很緊張，如果說要達到GDP的10%，等於2.6兆，那絕對會排擠到我們的社福、我們的經濟等等，對不對？你認同，所以你剛才的說法就是川普上任之後，我們的國防預算應該會增加，是不是如此？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就持續在增加中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：持續在增加，所以會增加嘛！是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：對啊！明年的預算就增加，後面的趨勢也是如此。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年的預算增加7%嘛！後年的趨勢也是一直增加？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以我要注意的就是說，我們不要排擠到，如果真的一直持續、一直持續地增加，當然這個是總統的職權，一直在增加的時候，如果真的達到10%，你認為會不會？"],["林部長佳龍：我想他的方向是希望增加，不是5%、10%的問題，其實川普包括他的副總統J.D. Vance，還有包括一些國安的幕僚……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他提出了10%，我方會接受嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，他不是正式地提出來，那個是一個方向啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就這個方向，我請部長你也詳實地去看川普時代臺美關係會怎麼樣的走向，當然你身為部長，這個是非常重要的工作，所以本席要請教，昨天外交部是不是有進府跟總統建議，在川普時代，你們討論到臺美關係，有沒有建議總統我們的方向必須是如何呢？有沒有？昨天有沒有討論？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們本來週三也都有一些固定的會議，也有討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那其中有沒有建議總統說川普上任了，他的方向跟之前的政府是不太一樣的，而且對臺灣，目前川普的團隊裡頭以及現在的團隊，一定是不一樣的，有沒有建議總統要關注在哪一個部分呢？請教部長。"],["林部長佳龍：其實美臺的關係，一方面我想他重視選舉期間的一些訴求啦！投資美國……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席請教，昨天你有沒有告訴總統、建議總統，我們必須要關注……"],["林部長佳龍：我們有報告，也有在書面的報告上面……當然，總統也對外發表對川普總統的恭賀以外，對美臺關係的方向，他也有宣示嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，也有宣示。請教2016年12月2日到2017年1月20日，川普在上一任的時候，我們蔡英文總統跟他打了電話、通了電話，這一次外交部會不會安排賴總統也跟川普準總統通電話？"],["林部長佳龍：我們目前並沒有這樣的安排。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。接下來本席要請問的是，深化雙邊的經濟貿易關係，在整個臺美21世紀的貿易倡議當中非常的重要，這個倡議總共有11項，包括貿易便捷化、法規制定、農業、反貪污等等11項，臺美去年6月份的時候在華府簽署了首批的協定，有望在今年年底要生效，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：對，first agreement今年底會生效。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問川普上臺之後，你們掌控的情資會不會有所影響，會不會？"],["林部長佳龍：第二階段因為已經談判到一個階段了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們預計到年底要生效嘛！因為川普當選了，會不會有所影響？你們的掌控。"],["林部長佳龍：後面的二、三階段，我們必須因應他對貿易的主張，再做一些談判，目前第二階段大部分項目也已經有了共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在外交部的立場，你認為在年底生效……是，就11項嘛！那你認為照目前談判以及川普當選，會不會影響到我們年底要生效的時間點？"],["林部長佳龍：年底生效是已經確定的啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是確定的，不會生變？"],["林部長佳龍：我想還在拜登政府任內，還沒有到新政府上任，這有分階段，我們在第二階段很多共識也已經有了，但是能不能把它完成，我們還要再跟新政府來談。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我想這個是你負責任的談法，所以本席剛開始也希望我們好不容易在去年6月份所簽訂，今年年底一定務必要達陣成功，因為接下來所面臨的挑戰，跟現在的政府有很多的方向，似乎有所不同，所以我們必須……"],["林部長佳龍：我們要鞏固一些美臺關係在拜登總統任內已經有共識的項目，另外，美臺21世紀貿易倡議就是避免雙重課稅，我們也期待在美國大選完之後到交接期間，他們國會也是會開議，能夠把它順利的完成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我要給你一句話，也就是說，當然我們要鞏固我們的安全，但是也不能讓人家予取予求、作為交易的籌碼，這個變化就請部長要隨時……"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們一定是以國家的安全跟人民的利益為依據啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就這一句話，要照顧好我們中華民國。"],["林部長佳龍：有關於國防預算，除了盡我們該盡的自我防衛的決心……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛剛已經回答、告訴人民了，就是逐年會增加，我已經聽到了。"],["林部長佳龍：當然美國也要加速對我們軍購項目能夠如期交付。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，請你掌控任何的狀態。","主席，我最後邀請一下陸委會好嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長您請回，謝謝。副主委，我最後跟你討論一件事，我剛才在經濟委員會特別提出，我說川普時代來臨，出口的國家壓力很大，因為它是高關稅，這樣的情況之下，目前他宣示對大陸60%，對其他的國家10%到20%，請教我國目前的狀態、我們所會受影響的，郭部長直接回答本席說：對臺商影響最大。川普政府對大陸高關稅目前規劃是60%，你認為郭部長說的「對臺商影響最大」這一句話，你的解讀呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我沒有仔細看郭部長講的話，但是假設美國真的對大陸的商品提高到60%的話，因為我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，他宣示了嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們臺灣有很多高科技廠商是在大陸生產，然後出口到美國的，所以確實對臺灣在大陸投資的這些廠商會有影響，也會影響到這些廠商會不會繼續留在大陸生產的問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以陸委會……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以他可能會到印度、越南或是回到臺灣，都有可能。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不了解狀態是如何，但是身為陸委會，請你也務必看這個面向，怎麼樣協助我們的臺商。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為臺商在外也非常的辛苦，我們要怎麼樣協助他，郭部長有講了一句話，我再請外交部長回答我，好嗎？郭部長說什麼呢？他說因應這個方向，有一個方法，就是轉境外，比如說你在日本，因為它對大陸要課高關稅，所以請這些廠商回到大陸去，就沒有關稅的這個問題，我在這邊……"],["林部長佳龍：委員，有關這個政策，我們現在布局基本上就是怎麼樣去確保我們的領先優勢，然後布局全球，以半導體來講，我們現在也有一個晶片戰略啊！就是技術深耕臺灣，產線布局全球，我們不是被迫什麼China Plus One、Taiwan Plus 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謝謝"},{"start":71.067,"end":76.672,"text":"報告委員我們現在這個無人機的部分嘛是不是對無人機的部分大概是分…園區、嘉義園區就是我們現在有變我們現在有一個部分要買地然後還有包括廠房什麼這些的經費有編了一筆68億多因為就國防部他們給我們的資訊是說有國發會出的錢那剛剛顯然國發會也不知道這個部分那這一筆錢是哪裡出的這一筆錢是因為我們在這個嘉義啊"},{"start":100.931,"end":125.603,"text":"要設置兩個我知道我知道部長我說的是誰出的錢可能是公建的預算公共建設的預算公共建設由哪裡出來就是公共建設的部分出的錢我們經濟部跟國科會吧一起出的錢68億多這個我還要再瞭解一下好那麻煩確認以後再給本席相關的資料那我接下來請部長請教部長因為您來自業界"},{"start":128.664,"end":145.509,"text":"就我們台灣整體的包括產業園區、科學園區或者其他發展的各種園區有沒有哪一個部分這些園區是由政府出錢買地、出錢蓋廠房、出錢蓋廠棚甚至出錢蓋測試的廠房還有出錢去買測試的儀器跟裝備台灣目前有沒有哪一個產業園區是這樣子就我所了解的"},{"start":158.686,"end":182.222,"text":"科學園區就是地不能賣就是政府的地對那是租的有些啦廠房標準廠房也是政府蓋的哪裡標準的廠房哪裡比如說哪一個新竹科學園所有的廠房所有的廠房不是所有的廠房標準廠房所以你現在這一個是所有的都是政府要把它蓋好喔"},{"start":182.822,"end":185.383,"text":"我先講的是說有沒有哪一個是所有都是政府出錢幫他買地蓋廠房有沒有沒有沒有嘛好那因為就這個部分嘉義無人機本席要在這裡強調其實非常認同我們這一次可以藉由去紅色供應鏈可以參與這個包括美國或者其他世界國家的接軌去發展無人機的產業鏈本席非常認同可是"},{"start":211.676,"end":227.099,"text":"我們很擔心在這個過程當中我們的做法會是要秒助長或者就是他已經奠定了未來可能不太會成功的一個這樣子的因子所以我特別提出來因為你來自業界如果用這樣的方法時間的關係像我舉一個今天農業部也在場農業部過去曾經為了要讓我們的青農可以有發展的機會"},{"start":237.401,"end":249.152,"text":"他在整個台塘的園區租了大概將近百公頃的土地那時候種植香蕉請了專業的人士有很多的植物醫生也好很多專業的人去教他們種香蕉那時候每個月還給他薪資"},{"start":254.036,"end":258.057,"text":"賺的錢是歸他們可是賠錢就太農發去吸收到最後不但血本無歸而且賠了很多錢甚至還毀了我們的整個農業包括那幾年香蕉的收入還有它的產值都非常非常的差因為它不用承擔責任今天如果我們台灣要發展這樣子的一個無人機的產業"},{"start":277.822,"end":298.396,"text":"部長您是來自業界我相信您大概也知道說我們會擔心的是什麼我們贊成可是你不要用政府的錢讓大家這些對象會是誰所有人都可以來參與嗎那這樣子會不會對我們的這個整個產業造成影響這個部分部長你有什麼看法我們會記取那個委員垂詢的這個經驗"},{"start":300.277,"end":319.807,"text":"就這個部分因為包括那時候香蕉很多它大概都是變成甚至是垃圾它不是當飼料而已所以我們希望它要成功的話可以讓它有機會可以做到最好的程度就這個部分是不是部長可以提供給本席一個相關的資料"},{"start":322.708,"end":336.287,"text":"主席讓我講完好不好主席你別讓我講完我請他提供資料而已部長麻煩你提供相關的資料給本席就你們的分析為什麼這樣做是可行的還有他的利弊得失好不好好謝謝好請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時40分）謝謝主席，麻煩請經濟部郭部長，還有國發會副主委。"],["主席：郭部長、國發會高副主委。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。首先我是不是先請教國發會副主委？在嘉義無人機園區要購地還有相關經費編了六十八億多，我在國防預算上面有看到，這部分是不是由國發會出的錢，然後給軍備局，再交給中科院執行，是嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：是嗎？回答就好。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：無人機這個案子是由經濟部來主責，有分軍用的跟那個……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，你告訴我現在六十八億多是不是由國發會出的錢？就這個部分。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上它要不是公建就是科技預算，不會由國發會來出，看預算的來源……"],["馬委員文君：是有什麼預算？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不好意思，我不知道，因為是經濟部主責的事情。"],["馬委員文君：那不然請部長好了。好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在是指無人機的部分，是不是？"],["馬委員文君：對，嘉義園區，現在有一個部分要買地，包括廠房什麼的，這些經費有編了一筆六十八億多，因為國防部給我們的資訊是由國發會出的錢，剛剛顯然國發會也不知道這個部分，那這一筆錢是哪裡出的？"],["郭部長智輝：這一筆錢是因為我們在嘉義要設置兩個……"],["馬委員文君：我知道。部長，我說是誰出的錢？"],["郭部長智輝：可能是公建的預算。"],["馬委員文君：啊？"],["郭部長智輝：公共建設。"],["馬委員文君：公共建設由哪裡出來？是公共建設的部分出的錢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部跟國科會吧。"],["馬委員文君：一起出的錢？六十八億多。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我還要再了解一下。"],["馬委員文君：好，麻煩確認以後再給本席相關的資料。我接下來要請教部長，因為您來自業界，我們臺灣整體包括產業園區、科學園區或者其他發展的各種園區，有沒有哪一個園區是由政府出錢買地、出錢蓋廠房、出錢蓋廠棚，甚至出錢蓋測試的廠房，還有出錢去買測試的儀器跟裝備？臺灣目前有沒有哪一個產業園區是這樣子的？"],["郭部長智輝：就我所了解的，科學園區的地不能夠賣，是政府的地。"],["馬委員文君：對，那是租的，有些啦。"],["郭部長智輝：標準廠房也是政府蓋的。"],["馬委員文君：哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：標準的廠房。"],["馬委員文君：哪裡？比如說哪一個？"],["郭部長智輝：新竹科學園區。"],["馬委員文君：新竹科學園區所有的廠房……"],["郭部長智輝：不是所有的廠房，是標準廠房。"],["馬委員文君：對，所以現在所有的都是政府要把它蓋好喔？"],["郭部長智輝：我們講的……"],["馬委員文君：我現在講的是，有沒有哪一個是政府出錢幫他們買地、蓋廠房，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["馬委員文君：沒有嘛。好，因為這個嘉義無人機，本席要在這裡強調，其實本席非常認同這次可以藉由去紅色供應鏈參與，包括美國或者其他世界國家的接軌，發展無人機的產業鏈，本席非常認同，可是我很擔心在這個過程當中，我們的作法會揠苗助長，或者它已經奠定了未來可能不太會成功的因子，所以我特別提出來。因為你們來自業界，如果用這樣的方法……時間的關係，我舉一個例子，今天農業部也在場，農業部過去曾經為了要讓青農可以有發展的機會，在台糖園區租了大概將近百公頃的土地，那時候種植香蕉，請了專業的人士，有很多的植物醫生，有很多專業的人去教他們種香蕉，那時候每個月還給他們薪資，賺的錢歸他們，賠錢就由台農吸收，到最後不但血本無歸，而且賠了很多錢，甚至還毀了我們整個農業，那幾年香蕉的收入還有產值都非常非常的差，因為它不用承擔責任。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：今天如果臺灣要發展這樣子的無人機產業，部長您是來自業界，我相信您大概也知道我們擔心的是什麼……"],["主席：好，謝謝馬委員，發言時間到。"],["馬委員文君：我們贊成，可是你不要用政府的錢讓大家……這些對象會是誰，所有人都可以來參與嗎？這樣會不會對我們整個產業造成影響，這個部分部長有什麼看法？"],["主席：謝謝，發言時間到。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會記取委員所垂詢的經驗。"],["主席：好，謝謝馬委員，發言時間到。"],["馬委員文君：就這個部分，因為那時候香蕉很多，它甚至變成垃圾，不是當飼料而已，所以我們希望它要成功，可以讓它有機會做到最好的程度。"],["主席：馬委員，發言時間到，請尊重主席。"],["馬委員文君：就這個部分，部長是不是可以提供本席一個相關資料？主席，讓我講完好不好？主席你讓我講完，我請他提供資料而已，部長麻煩你提供相關資料給本席，就你們的分析，為什麼這樣做是可行的，還有它的利弊得失好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請回座。本席主持會議一向公正，一視同仁。"],["馬委員文君：關於納稅人的錢，請主席給一點時間。"],["主席：請你尊重主席，尊重本委員會。"],["馬委員文君：差那30秒？"],["主席：下一位委員應當會很準時，賴委員是非常模範的。","請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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現在IG對話、LINE群組，往往都會跑出來這樣子的狀況，我不曉得教育部知不知道這件事？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這確實是現在校園裡面我們從一些統計數字看到的現象。"],["郭委員昱晴：我唸一下目前教育部針對青少年吸菸問題所採取的措施，包含校園禁菸環境的維護、提供師生戒菸資源以及設立違規事件反映管道。聽起來好像都有面面俱到，但目前為止具體的成效或具體的作為到底是什麼？真的有對這三部分做嚴格的控管，還是只交給地方，可能就沒辦法掌握了？這個部分有對症下藥嗎？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員回報兩點，第一點，是否對症下藥？剛剛委員已經講出我們的三個面向，事實上也還有更基礎的在必修課程，也不一定是必修課程，有關健體的部分，從縱向第一階段到第五階段都有；最後講到成效的部分，這部分歷來我們會跟地方政府藉由定期的會報來處置，在今天質詢之後，這樣的處置密度會更強，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想菸害防制法距離上次的修法已經是16年前了，但是對電子煙的規範，我們在去年1月有一些更嚴格管制的部分，但是目前我們看到電子煙在市面當中流竄，感覺上我們的控管好像很嚴格，因為這些規定出來之後，但問題是又好像無法可管，我覺得這個不能只有推給學校校方的老師來做這件事情，因為他們的行政量能或者是教學量能其實真的已經不堪負荷了，在這個部分，我覺得要更加地宣導，因為我們知道在電子煙的部分，包含我們把年紀提高到未滿20歲是禁止吸菸，對不對？","另外，我們在菸品容器上，標示的面積要增加50%，但問題是現在電子煙多樣化，這些部分我們真的完全無法可管。我們來看一下，現在青少年因為好奇心，光是高中生、光是國中生，就都占了50%以上，接著下來比較讓人擔心的是，他們看到別人吸，有同儕的壓力，他也就跟著吸，再來，因為它沒有傳統菸品那樣的臭味，他就會覺得是一個fancy、是一種時尚，還有紓解壓力。","再來，剛剛提到不能只推給校園，其實家庭的環境，爸媽、親戚朋友也在吸電子煙，我想這個部分，我們的宣導量能可能真的還是比較不足，接著下來我們來看一下，衛福部其實有特別做統計調查，但是這個統計調查是兩年才一次，對不對？請衛福部的人員上來，是兩年才一次，對嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，青少年吸菸是兩年一次，國人吸菸也是兩年，所以它是交互的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我個人真的認為這兩年當中的變化會很大，不要講一般的青少年朋友，我們光看電子煙，很多人以為它是一個戒菸的工具、是一個替代品。"],["賈副署長淑麗：這是錯誤的。"],["郭委員昱晴：這是完全錯誤的，我手上拿的這份報告講的其實就是電子煙對於青少年以及對於人體肺部的危害……"],["賈副署長淑麗：危害是一樣的。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為電子煙而死亡的最小年紀是16歲，所以剛剛我提到的兩年一次會不會不夠？我們是不是應該要逐年來做這樣子的調查報告，才知道光是一年當中，那個數據的攀升是會讓人覺得非常驚恐，可以改嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們會積極研議。"],["郭委員昱晴：可以改嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：積極研議。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有研議的結果再跟我們報告。"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。再來我想要問一下，現在我只要在網路上隨便打上「電子煙」三個字，前面兩個，第一個是電子煙防制專區，第二個是電子煙的維基百科，第三、第四、第五全部都是電子煙的販售平臺，這個部分我們怎麼管？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，事實上從去年3月22號開始執行修法之後，到今年我們在網路平臺查緝違規案件大概有三萬多件，目前已經裁罰出去的是74件，確實……"],["郭委員昱晴：三萬多件裡，裁罰才74件而已？"],["賈副署長淑麗：所以我們需要再加強裁罰的力道跟速度……"],["郭委員昱晴：是因為我們的人力量能不夠嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：這是一個原因，但是另外最重要的原因是它需要調詢個資、要約詢，這個行政程序是比較繁瑣、複雜的，所以我們兩個禮拜前在衛環委員會召開了相關類似的會議，這個過程中，我們跟22個縣市跟網路平臺都有積極的開會，希望可以壓縮這個速度，讓裁處速度快一點。"],["郭委員昱晴：是不是因為很多網路平臺沒有「tw」這兩個字，都設在境外，所以這個部分有點難管？"],["賈副署長淑麗：「.tw」是完全都已經下架了，至於境外的部分我們正在研議如何進行停止解析的動作。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，回到我剛剛最一開始所說的，現在很多年輕人是透過LINE群組、透過IG的對話群組，他們在做這樣向下……我們說是往下在影響青少年的族群，但是很多來源，包含煙油的來源是來自於中國，我們都知道從中國過來的東西，對人體其實有非常、非常大的危害，這個部分麻煩加快速度，可以嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：可以。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。另外是我們剛剛提到，如果我真的在網路上看到這些平臺，甚至連去提貨都不用本人，因為本人一定要看年紀，如果他沒有把這個包裝寫在上面，關於這個部分，我如果真的知道我的孩子或者我孩子的同學或者是我的鄰居去買了這個，因為這是違法的，我要怎麼檢舉？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，其實追本溯源，在網路平臺這一些不法的刊載跟廣告還是我們查緝的重點。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，你們查緝的重點都講出來了，但是查緝的結果跟查緝的速度跟最後能夠真正查緝出來的件數，真的是……"],["賈副署長淑麗：要加強，我知道。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，什麼時候可以更快地加強？"],["賈副署長淑麗：因為今天一整天委員一直在提醒我們，我們會儘快在時間內提供相關的資料……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，包含在校園的推廣、包含在校園菸害的告知，我覺得這個部分教育部可能要再加強……"],["賈副署長淑麗：關於校園的部分，我們跟教育部會再多一點合作……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為吸電子煙不是替代品，是完全錯誤的，因為它有可能會危害到我們的身體健康，導致青少年的肺部有更多的問題，甚至死亡，我覺得這個部分是令大家覺得很恐慌的一個問題，拜託教育部還有所有相關的部會，拜託！真的很多家長都非常地擔心，可以嗎？謝謝。"],["賈副署長淑麗：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","現在我們先來處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案計3案，請宣讀。","一、","本次康芮颱風登陸，造成全台嚴重災情，尤其風勢強悍，更是各地路樹、建築破損，校園安全更需要國人共同重視。據新北市政府統計，本次計有261所學校有大小不一的災情，其中嚴重者包括明德高中其體育館屋頂被吹破兩大洞，雨勢直接進入室內，嚴重影響學生上課受教權利。急需緊急修復，避免發生危險。","故建請教育部身為中央教育主管機關，應掌握全台校園遭受風災襲擊狀況，並且盤點嚴重影響受損程度，盤點現有資源，優先協調縣市政府維修需求，給予支持，以維護學生受教權益。要求教育部一個月內彙整全台學校受颱風影響的損害情況，提出協助計畫，必要時向行政院申請第二預備金予以因應。","提案人：洪孟楷　　萬美玲　　柯志恩　　黃健豪","二、","案由：有鑑於菸害防制法已明令禁止電子煙，但因政府各部會分工各行其事，導致查緝效果不彰，使青少年容易接觸取得，進而大舉入侵校園，而電子煙更被當作使用毒品之載具，戕害青少年身心健康甚鉅。為杜絕電子煙氾濫，爰要求教育部、衛福部、法務部、數發部、財政部關務署、內政部警政署等相關部門，應跨部會成立電子煙防制查緝平台，加強宣導與查緝，避免電子煙及毒品繼續侵害校園。","提案人：萬美玲　　洪孟楷　　柯志恩　　葛如鈞　　黃健豪","三、","案由：鑒於近日，美國國土安全調查辦公室示警，指出美籍人士Levi Forrest Wallace涉嫌在美國俄勒岡州對未成年人進行猥褻，並經判刑後列管，但該名人士於本年10月2日持觀光簽證入境臺灣，目前已行蹤不明超過35天。美國國土安全調查辦公室擔心該人在臺期間可能違反臺灣法律或善良風俗，故請求移民署協尋以維護公共安全。","鑑於此事已引發家長恐慌，提請教育部立即全面徹查全臺各縣市的學校、補習班及課後照顧中心，確認目前或過去是否曾聘用或運用該人士之服務，並於今(7)日下午5時前公布查核結果。此外，為強化校園安全，對於新聘任之外籍人員暫時採取更嚴格之審查機制，要求學校及教育機構確實查驗所有外籍工作人員的工作證及居留許可，並確認其身份合法性。除教職外，亦應嚴格審查其他校園職位（如廚工、清潔人員等）之聘任條件，以確保校園環境的安全無虞。","提案人：張雅琳　　陳培瑜　　陳秀寳　　吳沛憶　　葛如鈞"],["主席：我們先一案、一案來處理，先處理今天臨時提案第一案，關於第一案的部分，提案的委員不在，我們請部長先說明一下，有沒有需要補充或是說明的地方？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝主席。洪委員提案要求我們在一個月內提出所有颱風的災情情形跟協助計畫，我們教育部可以來做，這沒問題，至於「必要時向行政院申請第二預備金」是不是能夠在文字上略微修正為……因為工程會本身就有這一個專案，只要颱風，它馬上就會有一個……所以文字是不是能夠調整為「向工程會申請專案補助予以因應」？"],["主席：好，我們就要修正這邊嘛？我想這沒有問題，就是「必要時向工程會申請專案補助予以因應」這樣。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["主席：好，OK，這一案文字修正後沒有問題，我們就照案通過。","接下來處理第2案。第2案是本席所提的，其實這個就是今天大家在質詢時所講的，因為今天跨了非常多的部會去處理電子煙相關的防制、稽查，所以本席希望，不好意思，我要在臨時提案加幾個字，就是「相關部門，應跨部會成立電子煙防制查緝平台」的前面加上「一個月」，我想一個月的時間其實很足夠，本來本席是想提一個禮拜，為什麼呢？因為事實上現在大家就在做，除非你們告訴我現在並沒有在做，既然大家都有在做，我們就把這個平台整合起來，對於主責的衛福部、影響我們最大的教育部來說，把這個平台整合起來以後，對整個電子煙的稽查防制，應該會非常有效果。所以部長或衛福部要不要說明一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟主席報告，因為菸害防制主政還是在衛福部，所以是不是還是由衛福部主政，我們教育部會全力支持，我們不會逃避責任。"],["主席：沒問題，因為這也是要來解決我們教育現場的問題。所以文字有要調整嗎？請衛福部。"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒有，我們會跟教育部一起合作來辦理。"],["主席：要擺前面嗎？但他們說沒有問題，這樣需要調嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：文字上是衛福部主政……"],["主席：部長要講嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起……"],["主席：我們把文字調整一下，就是修正為「……爰要求衛福部、教育部、法務部、數發部、關務署、警政署等相關部門……」，我們把「衛福部」跟「教育部」對調一下，然後後面接「一個月內應跨部會成立電子煙防制查緝平台」，把「一個月」加上去，文字上的修正沒有問題？衛福部？"],["賈副署長淑麗：可以。"],["主席：OK，好，我們照案通過。","第3案是張雅琳委員等提案，有沒有需要補充說明？"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，我想要補充一下，就是剛質詢的時候有要求加入幼兒園，所以在文字上面是不是可以加入幼兒園的部分？"],["主席：哪個地方？"],["張委員雅琳：就是第2段第1行修正為「……徹查全臺各縣市的學校、補習班、課後照顧中心及幼兒園……」。"],["主席：OK，就是「……全臺各縣市的學校、補習班、課後照顧中心及幼兒園」，所以後面加上「及幼兒園」；「補習班」後面的「及」字取消，把它改成「、」，就是「徹查全臺各縣市學校、補習班、課後照顧中心及幼兒園」，是這樣嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯。"],["主席：好……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟主席報告，因為目前幼兒園有七千多所，所以我們在整個調查裡面，明天下午的話確實可能會有一點……"],["張委員雅琳：我們可不可以先公布現在學校等等的狀況，我們分階段來做好不好？那文字上可以怎麼修改？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是學校、補習班還有課後照顧中心的部分，我們努力在明天下午提出……"],["張委員雅琳：那幼兒園的部分，可以訂在什麼時候呢？"],["彭署長富源：幼兒園可不可以在下禮拜一中午前？"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我們把它放在文字裡面，就是幼兒園於下禮拜一，那是幾號？"],["彭署長富源：下禮拜一中午前……"],["主席：是不是請教育部把文字調整一下，我們再把調整後的文字正確地唸完？所以看起來前面應該還是維持一樣，就是「……徹查全臺各縣市的學校、補習班及課後照顧中心，確認目前或過去是否曾聘用或運用該人士之服務，並於8日下午5時公布查核結果」，後面再加……"],["彭署長富源：至幼兒園部分，於11月11號（下週一）中午前。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["主席：我們來確定一下文字，所以是「……並於8日下午5時前公布查核結果，至幼兒園部分，於11月11日中午12時前公布查核結果」，雅琳委員，這樣可以嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：沒問題。"],["主席：好，OK，沒有其他的問題的話，第3案我們也照案通過。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝主席，謝謝各位委員。"],["主席：各提案如果還有委員要補簽的，可以請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄。","接下來我們要繼續進行質詢，因為教育及文化委員會下午兩點還有學生輔導法的法案要協商，所以後續外委員會4分鐘發言的時間，就請大家掌握跟把握時間。","接下來繼續進行質詢，我們請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156601","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156601","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef05438576e2685c6ffd313be6769c271087bdf3ad428b0eec55634c366ed1daa38bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:30:40 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謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時30分）謝謝主席，有請經貿談判辦公室還有經濟部，還有外交部。"],["主席：經貿辦副總談判代表、經濟部郭部長、外交部吳次長。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長好。我們就先開始好了，我想部長今天很多人都問你了，因為美國選舉結束了，我覺得非常多的言論跟非常多的擔心正在發酵當中，剛剛所有委員的詢問，我看到其實各部會都有積極在準備跟因應當中，我希望透過你們的努力，可以讓我們相關產業界的朋友們不要那麼害怕跟擔心。我們知道其實CPTPP這件事情可能有另外一個變數是來自於中國想要更積極地加入CPTPP，就你們目前掌握到的訊息跟資訊是如何。"],["郭部長智輝：我想中國加入CPTPP應該是不會很快，因為這裡面有三大原則，在三大原則裡面有兩個原則，如是不是符合高標準等等，這些他們應該都沒有一致的看法，所以我判斷他是沒有那麼快。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你講這一段，我覺得大家會比較有信心，因為你剛剛的表情非常有信心，而且您來自業界，所以我們目前先相信你的判斷。可是因為在野黨的委員都一直說，我們不能只有靠近美國、不能只有跟美國友好，好像提醒我們，雞蛋不要都放在同一個籃子裡，這個論述我相信來自產業界的你也可以理解。我們回過來看，因為川普的當選，大家的擔心我想我就不再多說，時間有限，可是我們看到，如果期盼英國加入CPTPP之後可以有更具體的行動支持臺灣，你怎麼看？部長你剛剛點評了關於中國的部分，那你怎麼看英國的部分，讓我們臺灣的產業界相信自己會有另外的好朋友繼續支持我們。"],["郭部長智輝：我相信英國應該會繼續支持我們臺灣……"],["陳委員培瑜：你也很有信心。"],["郭部長智輝：畢竟歐洲的思維，剛才吳次長大概也有講到……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯。"],["郭部長智輝：所以他們應該會支持臺灣。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以你一樣充滿了信心，然後會以這個信心帶領臺灣的產業界往這裡走去？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定增強我們臺灣產業的競爭力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我相信有非常多人需要部長您這樣的承諾，把這樣的承諾轉換在政策作為上，我相信會讓國人更有信心，因為不是只有老闆們要擔心，所有領薪水的員工們其實更擔心，我相信部長你一定非常地清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。我們來看一下CPTPP這個協定，如果我們回到馬來西亞來看，關於我們臺灣跟東南亞的合作，目前我們看到你們相關的報告裡面談到教育服務業、健康相關服務業、視聽服務業，還有電子商務服務業等等方面的發展，這幾項服務業目前都跟馬來西亞還有汶萊的市場准入有關，先不管臺灣什麼時候可以順利加入CPTPP，目前我們在這幾項服務上，跟東南亞國家推動的投資保障方面，您認為有沒有可以更多加強合作的力道或者是方法？我們想要聽聽看部長您的意見。"],["郭部長智輝：我看了這四個項目，我想對臺灣來講都是非常有能力來協助進入馬來西亞的領域，譬如教育服務業，臺灣的教育服務是做得非常好，臺灣有一百六十幾家大學，所以我們都歡迎世界的人到臺灣來念大學，包括馬來西亞等這些僑外生都來臺灣念大學。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長您剛剛這個舉例非常貼切，而且可能也可以協助臺灣的公私立大學解決少子女化的困境，經濟部的角色這樣的承諾很棒，但有沒有機會經濟部更主動地跟教育部展開跨部會的溝通來協助這些部分？"],["郭部長智輝：有，跟委員報告，我們經濟部有一個2加4計畫，也就是說來臺灣念兩年的書，在臺灣工作四年，念兩年的書是不用錢的，是由國家給學雜費，但是他的生活費是由經濟部給的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們聽到部長相關的承諾，我們辦公室也會針對相關教育或者是我今天舉的這些例子，積極地再跟經濟部討論，也希望後續可以看到更多協助國內產業發展的部分，突破這個困境。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員精準掌握發言時間，非常感謝。部長請回座。","下一位請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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剛剛也有一些縣市提到針對農一農二的差異性的問題這個部分事實上都還有很多的民眾有疑慮尤其特別是農民所以大家也都收到很多的澄清案件而國土計畫法上路之後每五年才能做通盤的檢討農民的權益受到嚴重的損害所以農業部需配合的這個修正的執法目前還沒全部完成那補償的機制也還沒有下文所以"},{"start":219.249,"end":243.438,"text":"目前全國99%的農會也反對國土計畫法倉促上路那農業的發展地區的農地幾乎都劃設在中南部的縣市農業縣市也要負擔出全國的糧食安全的重擔所以特別的犧牲應給予特別的補償不管是在我們憲法第15條或是市制第440條都特別指出"},{"start":244.358,"end":271.361,"text":"特別的犧牲應該要有特別的補償但是目前為止還沒有看到相關的配套錯法跟補償的措施所以農民對於即將上路的國土計畫法都感到憂慮因此本席在國土計畫法第45條的這個修正案有提案要求希望能夠施行的日期能夠展延兩年讓中央政府可以利用這兩年的時間制定完整的配套措施"},{"start":271.801,"end":272.421,"text":"許宇甄委員：許宇甄委員"}]}},{"id":"156586","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156586","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054287744d28dfffff908683965f71045ce1cbb87bdf8ddece33d6cc5b51f0f3cef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:23:38 - 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劉永健非政府組織國際事務會執行長 陳剛毅台灣日本關係協會秘書長 范正國台灣美國事務委員會秘書長 邱高偉理事事務局局長 何振環"},{"start":2119.908,"end":2141.434,"text":"國際合作發展基金會副秘書長石立軍民主基金會副執行長盧彥忠陸委會副主任委員梁文傑陸委會綜合規劃處處長魯仲寧"},{"start":2149.554,"end":2162.483,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部及陸委會報告美國總統大選後．對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展的影響．並備質詢首先請外交部林部長上台報告"},{"start":2174.219,"end":2197.276,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安。承蒙貴委員會邀請外交部前來就美國總統大選後對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展之影響進行專題報告。以下僅提出本部的說明,敬請主席及各位委員不吝指教。"},{"start":2199.623,"end":2210.091,"text":"首先美國於美東時間11月5日舉行第60屆總統選舉共和黨候選人川普前總統所獲選舉人數已經超過當選門檻270票並宣布勝選在海美強健的夥伴關係基礎上"},{"start":2222.045,"end":2240.893,"text":"美國跨黨派對台支持以及對台灣的安全承諾都將延續我國將持續與美現任政府穩健推進雙方合作也期待與川普政府繼續深化台美關係首先川普首次執政時包括開啟對台軍售常態化"},{"start":2243.354,"end":2264.261,"text":"建置經濟繁榮夥伴對話等機制．高層訪台．宣布放寬臺美交往限制等．造就臺美關係顯著正向發展．我幫省盛努力推動．川普新政府延續首次執政．對台政策的正面立場．持續強化臺美關係臺美關係長期"},{"start":2271.281,"end":2288.762,"text":"溝通順暢,而且我們持續將深化在政治、安全及經濟各領域的雙邊及多邊合作夥伴關係。臺美間針對各項議題的對話及討論也已建制化,包括與川普總統首任成立的臺美"},{"start":2290.384,"end":2317.622,"text":"就是經濟繁榮夥伴對話以及上月舉行第5屆會議雙方也在會前完成EPPD合作備忘錄續約5年強化臺美經濟對話機制此外臺美在區域民主治理、教育、海巡、公共衛生、國際發展援助、糧食安全等多項領域也都已經建立了合作機制雙方應該會在這個基礎上持續的深化"},{"start":2318.562,"end":2334.744,"text":"在安全方面美國跨黨派、跨政府多次重申《恪守台灣關係法》及六項保證對台承諾除延續對台軍售常態化美國政府及國會也積極以各種政策工具助我強化嚇阻"},{"start":2335.905,"end":2354.359,"text":"這包括透過總統提用權及外國軍事融資 等創意方式提供軍援,助我提升國防能力,在臺美共同努力下,臺海和平穩定的重要性更已成為國際的共識,這形成了對中國的重要嚇阻。"},{"start":2355.748,"end":2376.329,"text":"而美方也持續深化與我經貿合作並共同提升國際供應鏈韌性在臺美積極提倡下國際社會已認知臺海和平穩定是全球安全及繁榮不可或缺的要素我將與新任政府持續強化民主國家因應經濟脅迫及提升經濟安全之合作"},{"start":2377.21,"end":2403.917,"text":"而除了行政部門之外國會參眾兩院跨黨派也展現強勁對台支持國會議員訪台層級及人數均屢創新高並持續以立法作為公開直言及聯名函等具體方式以行動展現對台灣的跨黨派支持我國與美國地方層級的互動交流也更加蓬勃發展包括美國各州在台設立辦事處的數量"},{"start":2407.212,"end":2425.791,"text":"從3年前人為個會數字﹐迄今已成長到23州及關島﹐共24個在台辦事處﹐另外各州州長訪台的頻率﹐也較以往更進一步提升﹐這些都展現我持續紮根於美國地方政府關係的一個進展"},{"start":2426.684,"end":2453.57,"text":"那麼在美中競爭格局以及美國跨黨派對台支持呢這個均將延續我想不會因為美國大選結果而有所改變那麼因為是跨黨派而且從這個聯邦到地方行政部門到國會都支持繼續推進各項美台關係"},{"start":2455.182,"end":2470.377,"text":"的發展,而且展現了具體的成果。美國對台灣的支持立場具有高度的延續性。臺美間的安全、經濟等跨領域各項合作也都已經一一建制化。當不受政府跟"},{"start":2471.478,"end":2500.109,"text":"換之影響,尤其,臺美關係是奠基在共享的民主自由及法治等普世價值與共同利益,使其長期以來受到美國跨黨派、跨政府的高度支持,立任美國政府不論由何黨執政均恪守《臺灣關係法》及六項保證,確保臺灣具備自我防衛能力,並積極深化臺美各領域合作,我們有充分信心,美國未來也將維持強勁的跨黨派"},{"start":2501.129,"end":2516.999,"text":"提台的力道。那麼在美中關係方面．美方將中國定位是最重要的地緣政治挑戰．雙方在軍事、經濟、科技等各領域的戰略競爭關係．一發白熱化．雖然就如何因應或有不同的觀點．"},{"start":2517.859,"end":2540.575,"text":"但美國行政部門及國會跨黨派已形成抗中的氣憤並提出許多抗中的政策工具及建議尤其中共近來持續擴大滲透及軍事擴張的野心並企圖改變以規則為基礎的國際秩序嚴重迫害區域和平穩定當非美國等民主夥伴所樂見而美中之間已形成的結構性競爭格局預期美國大選後"},{"start":2543.537,"end":2562.724,"text":"雙方競爭關係仍將持續但會避免衝突升高預期也將持續透過溝通來管控風險那麼臺美作為關鍵的安全與經濟夥伴將持續強化臺灣自我防衛能力及深化臺美安全合作並推動互惠互利的經貿關係"},{"start":2564.81,"end":2592.984,"text":"我政府並堅信和平靠實力的原則在美國持續落實對我安全承諾的同時我國政府也將持續致力提升台灣的自我防衛能力並深化與美國及其他理念相近國家的安全合作共同捍衛台海及區域的和平及穩定現狀來提升社會與人民的繁榮福祉那麼我政府審慎因應美國大選後中方可能採取的行動以及"},{"start":2594.247,"end":2614.663,"text":"對美、對台政策的可能方向簡述如下首先,中國政府目前以處理內政難題為優先,包括經濟低迷、房市崩盤、通縮壓頂、失業高漲、財政困難等因此現階段或將設法穩定美中關係,持續維持與美國鬥而不破的對立態勢"},{"start":2616.243,"end":2625.163,"text":"但也不排除中方刻意在選後交接其與區域擴大以灰色地帶策略測試美國新任總統的政策底線"},{"start":2626.24,"end":2653.058,"text":"那麼除非中國內部出現重大的政經情勢變化．或國際情勢出現重大的轉變．研判北京對台政策至少短期內．能較可能持續維持兩手策略．即2022年中共二十大定調的．反獨、反外力干涉、觸統、觸容．對台政策的基調、軟硬兩手．再是美國新政府的對中、對台政策發展．來彈性調整對台的戰術．"},{"start":2656.58,"end":2682.986,"text":"那麼針對中方可能加大灰色地帶的攻勢我方研判其相關做法不僅限於軍演也可能伴隨著網攻及認知作戰意圖削弱台灣內部的穩定與團結我政府當做好因應準備外交部也將與美方等理念相近國家保持密切協調並與區域盟友、夥伴深化安全及經濟合作共同強化對中的嚇阻"},{"start":2684.788,"end":2705.494,"text":"美國大選後的國際局勢發展及我國因應作為首先美國大選後的國際局勢．對全國民主國家．仍是十分的嚴峻、充滿挑戰．包括歐洲及中東戰火未歇．以及中國、北韓、俄羅斯、伊朗等威權集團．勢力相互協作．企圖挑戰與規則為基礎的國際秩序"},{"start":2708.715,"end":2725.238,"text":"意圖片面改變現狀．然而印太地區仍將持續是美國的關注焦點．其安全與穩定符合美國國家利益．這是川普首任美方提出的印太戰略．加強美國在印太地區的影響力．"},{"start":2726.359,"end":2751.672,"text":"並對中國在全國擴張影響力保持高度警戒。我們也看到﹐美方不僅持續強化在印太地區的軍事部署﹐也以建置各式相互交織重疊的雙邊﹐小型多邊及多邊的夥伴聯盟﹐強化與印太盟邦夥伴的合作與協調﹐這樣的一個制度化的作為﹐將更有助於盟邦夥伴之間的合作﹐較不易因政府的根力﹐"},{"start":2755.452,"end":2781.59,"text":"我政府也將持續密切關注新任政府上任後﹐美方與相關盟邦夥伴的互動。我國作為印太區域負責任的成員﹐除致力提升自我防衛能力﹐也將持續強化與美國等盟友夥伴的安全合作﹐除展現自我防衛決心﹐我方刻推動的經濟外交﹐也符合川普首任在EPPD架構下與我簽署的基礎﹐"},{"start":2782.35,"end":2795.763,"text":"建設融資及市場建立合作架構以及乾淨網路合作因此我將競速與美方就各項融幫及互幫的工作嚴提具體的合作項目最後,臺美關係以《臺灣關係法》及六項保證為基礎"},{"start":2799.086,"end":2825.596,"text":"長期以來獲得美國跨黨派及跨政府大力的支持相信在美國新任川普政府上任之後美國對台灣的支持也將延續本部也將持續在此基礎上深化臺美全方位夥伴關係與美國的盟友及理念相近的國家共同來守護臺海及印太區域的和平、穩定與繁榮以上報告謝謝主席與各位委員敬請"},{"start":2826.736,"end":2831.643,"text":"大院委員不吝指教,持續給予本部大力的支持。謝謝。接下來我們請陸委會梁副主委進行報告。"},{"start":2852.382,"end":2878.054,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生因為我們陸委會的報告是在兩天前就送來了所以我們手上大家拿到的還是舊版的那我們是根據昨天的狀況我們有一份新的但是我現在就是簡短的向大家報告首先共和黨候選人川普已經順利贏得美國總統大選"},{"start":2879.434,"end":2899.492,"text":"那共和黨與參眾兩院的選舉也取得多數的優勢那以下是本會的初步評估第一因為勝負狀態比較明顯所以美國的政局應該可以保持穩定短期內台海局勢不會因為出現空窗期而有變數"},{"start":2902.608,"end":2921.644,"text":"第二,鑒於美國新政府的外交與全球安全政策可能產生變化,那我們會密切關注以下的幾個議題,即時妥勝因應。第一,美國政府對俄烏戰爭及中東戰爭的政策立場,是不是會有所調整?"},{"start":2923.186,"end":2938.202,"text":"第二,美國的對中圍堵機制以及應他集體安全體系是不是會有所調整?第三,美國是否延續拜登政府目前對中經貿關稅及科技管制措施?"},{"start":2944.673,"end":2968.195,"text":"但是經過橫著整體情勢,美國選舉結果對全球民主陣營共同抵禦威權擴張以及美中與兩岸關係的發展,我們認為不會產生大幅的變化。第一,全球民主國家深化合作共同抗衡威權主義擴張,美中長期競爭態勢不會因為美國大選結果而改變。"},{"start":2969.807,"end":2998.601,"text":"第二我們認為中共內部治理問題擊中難反為挽救經濟確保政治安全及需維繫穩定的外部環境預料將繼續與美國透過溝通管控分歧第三研判美國選後中共仍將延續處容、處統、反獨、反介入的政策基調對台施行複合性的施壓第四"},{"start":2999.878,"end":3023.232,"text":"政府的兩岸政策是一貫的,致力維護台海和平穩定,積極落實和平四大支柱行動方案。未來政府也將持續關切觀察美中關係及兩岸情勢的變化,省慎應處,深化與包括美國在內的民主國家的合作,共同守護台海及區域和平穩定。以上報告,敬請指教。"},{"start":3030.058,"end":3031.419,"text":"我們補充介紹黃仁委員確認議事錄請問在場委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏、錯誤或需要更正之處議事錄確定"},{"start":3048.13,"end":3064.946,"text":"現在開始尋答本會委員8加2分鐘．非本會委員4加2分鐘10點半發言登記截止．如有臨時提案．請於10點半前提出11點左右是尋答情形進行處理現在請王定與昭偉上台質詢"},{"start":3078.311,"end":3105.703,"text":"委員長 今天有相當多的事情要請教外交部首先在11月份左右我們有四個重要的朋友的選舉那這四個選舉其實蠻有代表性的剛好代表我們外交很重要的四個樣態"},{"start":3106.983,"end":3131.891,"text":"第一個是在美國他是我們的重要的外交盟友那總統大選昨天完成了那川普再度進到白宮然後並且在參眾兩院全部都過半可以說是完全執政另外一個是我們的鄰國重要的地緣政治的鄰國也是我們經貿安全重要的隔壁鄰居日本"},{"start":3132.651,"end":3148.784,"text":"日本大選完了在11月11號連續4天要進行內閣總理大臣的推舉而且他們現在目前沒有一個政黨過半必須採取多黨聯盟或者少數政府另外一個是我們的正式邦交國這個是在"},{"start":3150.145,"end":3151.486,"text":"中歐、北歐非常重要的"},{"start":3166.478,"end":3182.432,"text":"這幾年在歐洲外交關係突破的你可以叫他攤頭堡你也可以叫他成為重要的朋友也是一個新型態的模式以台灣代表處開啟了在歐洲進駐的一個方式那立陶宛大選其實立陶宛的執政黨很少連任的啦"},{"start":3182.952,"end":3207.322,"text":"立法院大選每一次都會輪這一次是反對黨成為國會最大黨即將接任總理的帕魯克斯有對跟台灣的關係做出一些講法大概這四個我們先從美國總統大選川普再度回到白宮國會過半完全執政對於我們外交部來講因應一個格局我們雖然不押寶"},{"start":3208.402,"end":3233.061,"text":"民主共和都是我們的好朋友但是我相信每一種可能性每一種scenario我們都要做好準備外交部有沒有預判川普可能的重要人事布局特別是在國務卿、國安層級以及貿易談判代表這三個會影響到台灣的安全、國防以及我們的經貿的談判你們目前研判怎麼樣"},{"start":3234.085,"end":3258.4,"text":"是,我們自從兩黨總統候選人在初選期間提名的時候我們就已經有整理他們重要的這些人事佈局可能的名單那你預估,我們當然不能講誰是誰的位子因為川普自己都還沒定有哪些名字浮在我們的預判裡面"},{"start":3260.515,"end":3276.332,"text":"其實在川普第一任總統任內有一些可能會回任那也有一些新的參與他這一次這個MEGA就是相關的政見擬定的人這些我們都有根據他們可能的一個"},{"start":3279.315,"end":3281.395,"text":"談判代表其實我提醒你們要注意一下"},{"start":3306.88,"end":3328.297,"text":"不管做TIFA或者未來我們兩邊的BTA現在叫做那個21世紀貿易什麼倡議談判代表其實很重要那因為他現在是一個強勢政權國會過半總統普選票也贏代表票也贏所以川普的政策他其實就有去"},{"start":3329.698,"end":3351.203,"text":"執行的壓力包含關稅100%、200%這件事情我覺得對中國來講關稅可能是一件大事情就是經貿關稅、區域安全他在昨天長達40幾分鐘的等於勝選演說裡面其實對外關係講的不多他大概只提到一次說我們擁有比中國更多的東西"},{"start":3351.863,"end":3371.855,"text":"我不是來start War我不會來開啟戰爭我要來Stop我要來終止戰爭大概提到這一塊所以就外交部目前看起來川普對台有沒有什麼政策是值得我們要注意的如常的沒有問題的我們都知道大概大方向都不變有沒有需要注意的部分"},{"start":3372.912,"end":3391.379,"text":"我想他當然是以就是剛講內政為主在經濟跟移民問題上那其實在地緣政治上他也有一些主張所以這方面會對我們的影響以及如何因應我們也是都有所準備"},{"start":3392.079,"end":3394.742,"text":"當時川普在第一任總統任內有關印太戰略架構在2018年提早解密還透過澳洲的媒體解密那個架構把第一島鏈"},{"start":3412.213,"end":3439.388,"text":"第二島鏈第一島鏈要嚇阻中國對第一島鏈的威脅第二島鏈要成為完全能夠採摘就美國跟盟友要能夠完全控制第二島鏈他那個印太戰略架構是他上一次要連任之前揭露出來的東西這個會不會延續對我們影響很重要第二個他在國際經貿他甚至於他上次TPP就要退出的"},{"start":3440.268,"end":3449.442,"text":"所以對於這種多邊的經貿組織他才採取什麼態度他的人事跟政策會影響到他對於區域安全是讓你自己負責還是會積極介入"},{"start":3454.164,"end":3479.61,"text":"讓你自己負責是你要什麼我給你這個都會影響這個我建議要多研究因為這個還在演變成說未來我也許跟林玉清召委我們還會等他們人事佈局更穩定一點我們甚至於要到華府一趟或者我們可能這個台美國會聯誼會因為我們很多這個台灣Caucus的成員都連任其實國會是很重要的不分民主共和有台的"},{"start":3480.69,"end":3500.368,"text":"台灣連線的國會議員連任率很高目前還是國會最大的力量這個是我們要掌握住的我跟委員回應一下確實如你所言其實美台關係的架構主要是在川普他在第一任總統任內其實設定包括印太戰略包括對台軍售的常態化"},{"start":3501.248,"end":3517.284,"text":"包括呢,EPPD,就是這個所謂1加1等於3,就是經濟繁榮夥伴對話架構,以及呢,高層的互訪,層次很高,到次卿的層次到台灣,衛生部長。另外一期啊,我覺得一個非常重要的是,"},{"start":3518.485,"end":3536.412,"text":"就是說對台灣來講我想這些架構性的東西我們應該是會做基礎他有沒有用一些人事或政策去推翻自己上一任的架構我剛才提醒是這件事情他如果推翻上一任的架構我們就要"},{"start":3538.297,"end":3566.979,"text":"用什麼字呢?Be cautious我們要小心你懂意思嗎?因為這一任的川普跟下一任的川普我們不能假設是一樣的那我接下來要請教的就是你剛才提到歐布萊恩歐布萊恩他有去轉發並且加了一些文字去我們賴清德總統對川普的賀文在X上面那X的老闆X的老闆馬斯克也是川普他昨天也花了好長時間在俄羅馬斯克所以"},{"start":3568.059,"end":3590.535,"text":"這個文他有轉發那一般有人預計說奧布萊恩可能是國安顧問或者國務卿我們不要去預測因為預測搞不好害了他本來有會變沒有所以我的意思是說除了奧布萊恩以外我們目前外交部或我們的國安高層有沒有跟川普總統重要的幕僚直接的接觸有或沒有"},{"start":3592.211,"end":3592.971,"text":"接觸的成績是誰?"},{"start":3617.642,"end":3645.533,"text":"有提到賴清德總統當然在AXE上面這是一個非正式的恭賀我相信外交體系應該有把正式的賀文透過駐美代表處轉給對已經這個致函已經我提醒我們對美經營是所以對於拜登總統在過去四年對台灣的協助我們要百發感謝我們對於川普總統的集戰就任表示恭賀那"},{"start":3646.454,"end":3670.062,"text":"上一次川普總統就任沒多久跟小英總統有直接通上電話有經過一些穿梭聯繫那目前我們外交部也好國安高層也好跟賴清德總統這一邊有沒有跟川普的幕僚直接通上話然後未來有沒有直接見到面或聯絡的安排或努力有還是沒有"},{"start":3671.002,"end":3689.794,"text":"我們有聯繫的管道,但是並沒有就像如說電話這方面有任何的討論我再把問題講一遍,你跟他重要的幕僚要有直接的溝通管道,這個很重要"},{"start":3690.655,"end":3705.328,"text":"然後這溝通管道我們有些努力要達成的目標但是如果能夠促成兩位元首見面當好事但困難度很高嘛那雙方能不能不管是願意公開的通商化或者是"},{"start":3706.249,"end":3724.088,"text":"不願公開的通商化這個其實也很重要這是一個我問的是外交部有沒有把這個列為努力的方向不沒有因為有一家媒體有錯誤的報導關於說是不是有在聯繫通電的事情我可以很明確跟你講我們目前並沒有這樣的聯繫那未來會不會嘗試"},{"start":3727.831,"end":3744.638,"text":"我想隨著他選舉結果都抵定人事的佈局我想這個溝通的管道是有的我最後一分鐘提醒外交部外交是整體的國力經濟是外交國防是外交"},{"start":3745.838,"end":3761.077,"text":"這個是部長你提過的所以當川普選擇內閣就任他看到亞洲看到印太他不喜歡說亞太他喜歡說印太對他看到印太的時候看到中國問題的時候他一定要思考台灣的角色這跟安全跟國防有關"},{"start":3761.818,"end":3782.811,"text":"他看到國內就業機會的時候避免雙重割稅這個我們跟美國遊說很久美國民主共和兩黨都承諾選後要來處理這個避免雙重割稅可以讓我們的企業從墨西哥北部的邊境往北移到美國境內創造就業機會而這個對話過程如果讓民間去努力外交部跟我們政府角色就不見了"},{"start":3783.852,"end":3793.559,"text":"政府要有角色去統合我們經濟的力量不管是集體電路公司或者是傳統製造公司當美國要MEGA"},{"start":3794.164,"end":3822.243,"text":"要把工作帶回美國的時候他要跟盟友來溝通這個時候溝通的管道就有溝通的議題對台美來講會有實質的部分所以基本上我們當然恭喜川普總統當選總統他當選之後我覺得最頭痛的應該是中國但台灣還是要小心跟新的行政團隊的磨合侵殺我們國家利益我們希望我們下一次再有這樣專報的時候能夠更具體好不好好"},{"start":3822.783,"end":3830.505,"text":"另外三個選舉的相關細節我們再來溝通。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝王定宇召委。林部長請回。接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。你好,我們請部長。請林部長。"},{"start":3860.046,"end":3877.734,"text":"部長好委員好部長這一次的總統大選之後我看到我們很多部門像昨天我在諮詢經濟部長的時候我問他說那台美關係還有會不會有變化那他是說不會有變化那就是堅若磐石跟過去一樣部長你覺得這樣的說法"},{"start":3879.995,"end":3906.283,"text":"其實民主國家選舉競爭跟政黨人體是常態也都有變與不變那有一些不管是法律或政策會延續但是也有一些人士可能因為新的政見主張那基本上臺美關係除了總統選舉以外其實國會是一個觀察指標我跟委員可以報告一下因為您很關心在國會友台的力量"},{"start":3907.523,"end":3916.886,"text":"這部分我們到目前為止以這個參議院這一次我們有30幾位我們友台小組的成員9位是這一次面臨的改選目前知道的有6位已經公佈的都是連任所以相當穩定那在眾議院方面"},{"start":3927.53,"end":3933.615,"text":"四位共同主席也都順利連任所以更為增強對台灣在國會上面的支持的力量部長講得很好有變與不變所以當我們說這個完全沒有改變這是錯誤的訊息"},{"start":3946.932,"end":3965.325,"text":"我們美台之間的夥伴關係不會改變但是美國的領導層的變化跟他們的未來任用的內閣當然會有不同的政治的意識形態當然有不同的外交政策只是說我們要怎麼樣因應這樣的情勢這才是重點"},{"start":3965.885,"end":3986.313,"text":"首先要了解狀況,不是說全部都一樣堅若磐石,但是卻沒有因應說川普政權接下來的這種貿易上面、經濟上面、外交上面、安全保障上面的政策的改變。所以我必須要特別來強調,我們要怎麼樣把我們的論述完整化,才不會被"},{"start":3987.659,"end":4006.669,"text":"中國方面可能會用以美論來趁機來介入這就是重點比方說我想要請教一下在經貿的部分川普是非常注重要把企業留在美國要把工作機會留在美國要把科技業留在美國那甚至有可能會對其他國家我就"},{"start":4007.369,"end":4014.214,"text":"確實我們要了解對方現在新政府的政策方向比如說像投資美國創造就業機會那這個是我們正在做而且很明顯可以看到包括台積電還有各方面的投資"},{"start":4036.129,"end":4056.815,"text":"另外一個其實我們現在在推的經濟外交在美國方面就是川普總統我想他任內啟動的包括乾淨網路就是這一些都是去紅色供應鏈包括電信跟5G以及EPPD這最重要"},{"start":4057.635,"end":4058.396,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":4077.108,"end":4094.542,"text":"在台灣生產這個高科技的晶片是有效率的經濟有效率上面所以要說服或者是用我們的論述比如說強調鞏固台灣對美國的經濟整體的發展是更有效率那第二部分有人會問說那我們的這個台灣的這個晶片會不會受到影響"},{"start":4099.929,"end":4110.725,"text":"臺灣不一定有這麼多的土地來去建設廠房分散一部分的投資在美國把最高製程的留在臺灣這確實是也符合臺美之間的利益再來就是會有"},{"start":4111.306,"end":4135.727,"text":"一些論述說這樣子這個美國不斷的要求台灣來增加我們的這個國防預算這也符合台灣利益跟美國利益啊當我們現在粗糙美國的時候代表說台灣跟美國之間的貿易是增長的這就是經濟上面的互助既榮邦那又能夠把我們的貿易往上一層但是滿足我自己的國防需求是以符合台灣的利益啊所以哪有什麼有一些人會說什麼繳保護費什麼時候"},{"start":4138.169,"end":4156.75,"text":"公布自己的國家的國防必然要繳保護費這種說法我們必須第一時間就要把這個錯誤的論述把它打破除此之外我們不僅跟美國的貿易是這8年來是最好的狀況之外同時我們有多出來的這些如果要確保說貿易是平衡的貿易是對等的"},{"start":4157.711,"end":4184.952,"text":"跟美國來去採購最先進的防衛的系統防衛的服務這有什麼不對這當然是可以增加我國的防衛能量有人說川普說要提到10%但是我們另外一方面也要跟他們強調一點就是說我們當然願意緩慢的把我們的應該說是在暗部就班的把我們國防預算提高但是在暗部就班的把國防預算提高的時候也要確保美國的生產量能夠跟上我國的採購需求"},{"start":4185.732,"end":4213.558,"text":"所以這是一連串的論述當我們達成這個論述的時候相關的以美論自然而然的就可以把它去這個化名掉你覺得這個看法怎麼樣我覺得以美論是沒有必要啦因為其實美國跟台灣的一個關係不只是說分享共同的理念而且是互利的關係而且在美台的經濟整合啊可以說是相當的深我簡單來講就是說"},{"start":4216.679,"end":4232.068,"text":"讓美國再次偉大不能沒有台灣如果沒有了台灣跟美國的這種夥伴關係那美國也很難再次偉大因為像台積電這樣的投資他是一個很國際化的公司外資佔了將近七成"},{"start":4235.33,"end":4250.847,"text":"所以我們要了解說在美國的投資這個是互惠的那因為他本身也要發展晶片產業所以有人講說是不是什麼台灣plusone要去把台灣的供應鏈從台灣移出其實我們從另外一個角度來講是台灣plusone"},{"start":4252.709,"end":4271.155,"text":"這台灣的全球布局隨著這個供應鏈的重組我們更有韌性這個因應未來的國際振興的變化所以我覺得美台關係沒有必要去分化我想中共在這方面不斷在操作所謂的以美論我認為是錯的而且沒有必要"},{"start":4272.475,"end":4299.048,"text":"並且呢不會成功謝謝部長那再來就是說關於這個他對盟邦或者是安全保障的做法那一定跟拜登是不太一樣的那可能風格不一樣風格不一樣那我相信基本的一個民主國家他的政策法令還有一些關係是延續的對那我必須強調說那這樣的他的政策方針不一樣的話我們要相應的去調整嘛比方說他可能"},{"start":4300.129,"end":4303.151,"text":"印太戰略本來就是一個區域乃至全球的戰略它是超越雙邊的那同樣在第一島鏈我想川普總統就是"},{"start":4326.793,"end":4341.924,"text":"讓美國真正重返亞洲甚至從太平洋到印度洋連結那因為國際政治它是有互相聯動所以在歐洲的一個情況包括俄烏戰爭的發展我們要密切關注因為這個也代表新的政府他可能的作風"},{"start":4344.566,"end":4366.435,"text":"我們可能要立刻就是主動接洽多邊跟我們國家比較有這個利害相關的國家其實我跟委員報告其實因應美國選舉其實像包括在歐洲我們理念相近的國家他們也都開始在調整這個是必然的對對這個時候我們可能就是要更加注重地緣政治那可能"},{"start":4367.355,"end":4384.32,"text":"部長上台之後價值外交的這個他的順位他也必須要相應調整對於川普來講所謂的價值外交我們要這樣子的跟他的這樣的接觸的方式跟縮帖也一定要調整因為對他來講"},{"start":4385.936,"end":4400.715,"text":"地緣政治的挑戰他放在比較前面那對於美國的貿易跟美國的這個產業他的重心會放得更重要那所以說這是從他們的這個美國大選的政策就可以看出明顯的不同"},{"start":4402.056,"end":4428.962,"text":"針對這個不同當然要調整我們的所有縮帖所以我當然是認同價值外交我當然是覺得說這個我們台灣跟許多歐洲的民主國家一樣在倡導這個民主、自由、人權但是現在的美國他們重視的是國家利益那這個部分我們也必須因應新的政府來做出新的調整我想這個是非常重要的但第二點我們也要擔心的包含這個"},{"start":4430.542,"end":4454.31,"text":"馬斯克在這幾天我記得是新鏈的部分可能一些這個生產鏈都說因為地緣政治的挑戰可能會轉移我想這方面也必須要找到相應的人員來去說服說在台灣生產是有效率的在台灣生產是符合美國利益跟美國戰略的這些鞏固台灣的這些做法"},{"start":4454.89,"end":4479.598,"text":"我們也必須要跟他們一一的來去了解甚至他們是在商言商所以針對一些特殊的這些租稅或者是相關的這些經濟的措施可能都變成必須要我們要連串去思考就不可以說這是經濟部的事情外交部就變成要統合這一切就包含今天如何加入CPTPP在經濟委員會外交部也有書面報告所以大家要串起來因為現在"},{"start":4481.36,"end":4486.135,"text":"不比過去四年完全不同的方針施政的方式必須要因應"},{"start":4487.321,"end":4512.388,"text":"我是覺得提升臺灣的一個就是競爭的優勢那技術生跟臺灣產線佈局全球其實供應的重組有它的趨勢那臺灣在這裡面怎麼應用這個趨勢來佈局所以並不是說好像供應要從臺灣移出其實這也是一個我們國力的擴張嘛延伸嘛所以我想說剛剛講到比如說以這個新鏈它的這個供應鏈那臺灣的優勢"},{"start":4514.969,"end":4537.286,"text":"不能沒有台灣,因為這個很清楚,我們在資通訊上面,在晶片這個產業上,但是在佈局上怎麼樣做,有它一定的經濟的一個邏輯,配合地盤政治的變化,我們確實要時間已經到,最後再補充一點就好,不好意思招惹,就是我們剛剛提到的晶片相關的法案對不對,那我們希望說我們的在這個駐美的辦事處來去強調"},{"start":4539.147,"end":4539.668,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4561.269,"end":4567.532,"text":"我認為這是一個重中之重的麻煩以晶片跟半導體產業來講,臺美關係是分工合作是互補的關係,所以它不會傷害自己所以臺灣的重要性已經跟美國的晶片發展是融為一體"},{"start":4590.101,"end":4608.208,"text":"布局什麼樣的策略 業者也有相當的準備跟意義我們的擔憂是因為之前的共和黨的眾議院議長有提到所以我們必須在他提到之後 立刻要有我們的縮帖 立刻去反映這是我們執行的目的有這個問題 所以我們要解釋說 這不是問題"},{"start":4616.351,"end":4616.531,"text":"台灣美賺一塊錢"},{"start":4631.368,"end":4631.548,"text":"這部長你剛才"},{"start":4655.639,"end":4656.32,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員 部長請回"},{"start":4686.977,"end":4688.578,"text":"接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢有請我們外交部長請您部長好 部長委員好"},{"start":4715.461,"end":4733.819,"text":"首先我們先恭喜我們川普能夠當選是不是帶來全球裡面的安定我們一代後面的演變是如何但是我們不得不相信你們也要重新的調整跟思考"},{"start":4736.758,"end":4757.623,"text":"未來對台灣的利益跟美國的利益有怎麼樣的一個互惠跟互動跟未來怎麼樣的合作台灣有它的獨立性不是因為新的政府美國然後造成了我們台灣的壓力今天我們要講的"},{"start":4761.055,"end":4779.826,"text":"我們過去從拜登政府這幾年推動的全球民主信賴夥伴關係我相信這一定會有不同改變的一個角度不同改變的角度因為我們當然希望我們的信賴這個夥伴關係能夠存在"},{"start":4782.421,"end":4803.346,"text":"那當然以拜登上任之後可能會有所的改變因為我們可以了解拜登川普在選舉之前都已經對世界對我們台灣都已經表達了他們將要採取什麼樣的策略跟政策你來回答一下"},{"start":4805.435,"end":4806.836,"text":"現在我講的是川普現在未來對台灣實施什麼樣的手段"},{"start":4826.926,"end":4843.621,"text":"就是包括像台灣關係法、六項保證還有有關於國會通過的這些法案這些都是會延續的這第一層第二層就是他的政策我剛剛提過其實在川普第一任總統的時候其實現在後來拜登"},{"start":4844.802,"end":4846.904,"text":"本席在觀察川普執政的特色如下"},{"start":4858.325,"end":4884.701,"text":"第一個,美國優先以美國為仇星的單邊主義減少美國的安潛責任交易主義以及關稅自擺病等這些特色都容易引起其他國家的不滿甚至造成其他國家的利益直接受損川普過去不是只對中國大陸採取不友善策略"},{"start":4886.182,"end":4914.564,"text":"對北約、歐盟也是如此可見他的想法是想把世界欺風為美國跟非美國只在乎美國是否能夠獲得利己的利益所以這就是我們現在要思考的問題台灣未來是不是他要重新的調整提高保護費用為什麼因為有兩項的問題你先回答我剛剛前面的問題"},{"start":4915.58,"end":4935.318,"text":"就是說對川普的路線有各種的名詞我不太用這些名詞是因為對美國優先其實任何總統執政都是美國優先只是說他的作風跟怎麼樣去形成一個在國際穩定的力量他做法不盡相同現在問題對台灣來講台灣的重要性問題現在我只針對對台灣未來採取什麼樣的手段第一個"},{"start":4942.163,"end":4949.713,"text":"他已經對外說要對台灣要收集保護費這保護費項目是什麼是提高經費的經購的這些預算還是要從整個總預算的1.2兆"},{"start":4959.546,"end":4960.727,"text":"現在是美國沒有在台灣駐軍所以這個所謂保護會這種講法是後來媒體把他可能簡略或可能有一點誤導"},{"start":4975.999,"end":4989.103,"text":"我們本來就在臺海的安全就是臺灣自己我們要盡一份責任那我們的盟邦他有基於臺灣關係法六項保證還有這些軍售我現在問的是未來我們現在我們要去面對我們要針對我們國內國人的關心第一個臺灣半頭體美國說強美國說強我們的這個"},{"start":5003.067,"end":5023.974,"text":"美國說搶我們的生意,搶我們台灣報導體搶美國的生意,要向台灣收保護費,這要對美國所有的進口的產品都要加徵百分之十的關稅,這就是問題所在,百分之十有多少?"},{"start":5025.503,"end":5054.792,"text":"各位委員他這個用關稅作為他這個美國優先的一個手段這不是只針對台灣他對中國甚至要苛徵六成的增加的一個關稅我們不講別的我們講台灣就好了所以現在國人要擔心的是什麼川普當選之後對全球甚至對台灣我們現在是台灣最關心的議題就是未來我們是不是要提高我們的"},{"start":5056.873,"end":5067.878,"text":"這個軍購的這個預算還是要從他的整個總預算裡面要收齊保護費用我跟委員報告我們比如說我們跟對方溝通我會呈現說比如過去八年來我們的國防預算從每一年這個3300億已經增加到6400多億我們的增加率八成以上而且未來還會持續增加"},{"start":5080.023,"end":5102.124,"text":"而且呢,我們對美國的一個,他們我們的軍購啊,就是他有兩百多億美金啊,還沒有遞交這一些我們的這個軍購嘛,就是他軍售的這一些武器嘛,所以我們都透過一定的溝通啊,我們要不卑不亢啊。"},{"start":5102.925,"end":5107.33,"text":"本來我們就要持續因為隨著我們基金比、國民我們的預算的增加我們的比例跟總額也會增加因為時間因素你再說一個書面的給我報告好不好這個我們有縮帖我們把給美國的縮帖要給委員這個我請同仁"},{"start":5119.083,"end":5143.08,"text":"這是有關於大家關心的一個是經費另外一個就是所謂軍費這兩個我們的撥貼要提供給委員我們現在是以台立外交身邊就是我們的立陶宛10月底立陶宛在國會大選後由社民黨成為國會的最大黨並組成聯合政府日前準總統這個帕魯克斯表示"},{"start":5144.56,"end":5168.913,"text":"將尋求以中國大陸前面恢復正常外交關係．並稱立陶宛以諾台灣開設以台灣為名稱的代表處．為對外記者說是外交錯誤。．這個台立關係申辯的第一個警訊．是社民黨在今年的5月份"},{"start":5170.273,"end":5194.472,"text":"總統大選的時候而連任的納塞達總統也曾經表示過要把以台灣名義設立的代表處改為台北那以穩定與中國大陸的關係時而當時的前任的吳釗燮部長當時也說信誓旦旦的說名稱不會改變短短半年即是又申辯了發生這樣的狀況部長"},{"start":5197.074,"end":5205.856,"text":"在你心上任你有什麼樣應對這樣的一個問題將會生變如何應應首先我國駐立陶宛代表處的名稱是臺灣跟立陶宛雙方政府當時達致的共識跟決定我們當然會努力去維護它我想任何變更也需要經過雙方面的一個程序至於說他們的這個"},{"start":5226.562,"end":5236.477,"text":"大選完之後新政府的組成未來的在這個政策上我們並不反對立法院跟中國關係正常化這個設大使館可是這不"},{"start":5237.932,"end":5240.194,"text":"現在已經提示了外交錯誤已經他們是對國際媒體表達了外交錯誤並希望我們以台灣改立為台北這個就是一個警訊了"},{"start":5261.969,"end":5278.103,"text":"我覺得委員你可能要稍微他後半段他也有提到說其實立陶宛是一個主權他這個國家啦其實也不是說在外力下壓迫他就一定就會改變那我們當然要去努力怎麼樣去實質的增進台力關係"},{"start":5279.204,"end":5280.865,"text":"外交錯誤是我們的台灣設立在立陶宛就是一個外交錯誤這就是一個警訊"},{"start":5303.504,"end":5304.525,"text":"我們就是溝通來說明其實"},{"start":5315.837,"end":5340.453,"text":"立、台、中三邊的關係不是零和的那立陶宛也開創了一個新的模式我想如果中國願意回來跟立陶宛發展正常的關係不要再制裁他們經貿或者是說自己這個撤出大使館這個我們基本上我們都不反對所以立、中跟立、台關係是兩件事情是可以同步來發展創造多贏"},{"start":5342.08,"end":5363.261,"text":"我們會去溝通,但是委員提到,沒有錯,這個要值得我們要注意,因為這些都代表著說我們外交上未來的挑戰。我跟部長講,我們建立在一個,跟立法院建立的關係,主要的關係,就是一個新冠疫情和二屋戰爭兩個事件上,其實利益極點並不穩固。"},{"start":5365.063,"end":5385.39,"text":"尤其在新冠疫情結束後．立即點消失的前提下．台立關係動搖的可能性大增所以這就是一個主因那我們也特別請外交部加強．來跟立陶宛再做雙邊的關係．再做一個好好的來"},{"start":5388.011,"end":5388.131,"text":"謝謝華倫委員部長請回"},{"start":5418.22,"end":5418.36,"text":"馬文君議員"},{"start":5439.537,"end":5440.518,"text":"美國總統大選明朗化,川普會再度入主白宮。過去我們也曾經跟川普總統有"},{"start":5458.654,"end":5484.042,"text":"在他上一任的時候其實大概都很多的不管政策面或者他在各方面的一些領導風格大概我們都有交手過那他現在再度入主白宮這一次他可以當選雖然大家覺得他非常的狂妄自大然後可能有一些做法也是跟一般人不太一樣可是他還是順利的當選而且不是微服"},{"start":5486.823,"end":5502.128,"text":"不像在剛開始的時候﹖很多的評論﹖或者媒體的﹖不管民調也好﹖他們不是差距很小﹖甚至差距還蠻大的那這個部分很重要的因素﹖是因為他在選舉的過程當中﹖他要繁榮經濟的這樣的承諾﹖其實是受到很多民眾的﹖可能接受或願意相信他"},{"start":5513.632,"end":5513.652,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":5518.297,"end":5518.317,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":5549.498,"end":5569.111,"text":"兩岸可能還有其他其他的一個因素的情況之下才會有這樣的狀況所以我那請問部長就這個部分因為剛剛我是非常認同你提到的就我們過去在國防武器上面至少有200億美元以上的金額他的武器裝備是還沒有"},{"start":5570.892,"end":5587.284,"text":"提供給我們如期提供給我們所以就這個部分外交部也認同應該要據理力爭不可以矮化我們自己這一點本席非常認同我也希望未來是朝這個方向尤其外交部應該可以著力更多跟國防部可以聯合起來為我們的國防安全還有我們的防衛的力量可以"},{"start":5594.79,"end":5594.95,"text":"特斯拉執行長"},{"start":5612.194,"end":5626.543,"text":"馬斯克對台灣也不是很有善所以今天如果他們兩個湊在一起的時候我們先來回想他們在上一任因為中國電信公司可能成為間諜跟網路攻擊載體所以他對華為跟中興通訊實施了出口管制"},{"start":5634.548,"end":5662.627,"text":"可是後來因為要求大陸購買美國的農業跟能源的商品以後他就取消了中心通訊的這個管制他一向都是把這個利益放在首位那對我們也是川普在接受媒體訪問就在選舉過程當中他談到如果解放軍對台灣展開武統的時候美國他不是派出第七艦隊來到台灣海峽"},{"start":5665.888,"end":5691.916,"text":"來解除我們的封鎖然後也不是拿導彈瞄準中國的軍事要塞或重要的基建他是要宣布對中國加關稅所以其實從他很多的做法跟他的言談之間其實很明顯的利益還有他的生意其實都是放在第一位這個部分我們外交部還有沒有什麼比較積極的一個應對的做法"},{"start":5693.587,"end":5722.967,"text":"是跟委員報告美國是一個民主國家那川普總統得到很大的民意的支持我們要當一回事我們要認真地來去理解他政策背後的民意基礎那確實比如你剛剛提到的幾項比如說你剛剛提到的他這個我們採購200多億美金他還沒有交付這個武器那現在美國又通過國防這個工業這個戰略的法案那是不是可以有案外包"},{"start":5723.507,"end":5726.55,"text":"讓臺灣也可以參與這些國防產業這個就是一個可以多贏的局面如果他之前他沒有辦法交給我們是因為俄烏戰爭還有疫情的關係所以他的產業鏈沒有辦法及時供應如果我們現在把他的外包的這個部分放在重點未來"},{"start":5744.745,"end":5749.907,"text":"有可能他把他做不來的現在推到我們台灣來幫他做代工然後回去以後又再高價再賣回台灣這是我們非常擔心的所以這一點先在這裡提醒所以這個不是我們認為其實是可行的他應該要交給我們不管他用什麼樣的方式可是我們在明年的預算上面已經看到他不斷的在加價囉所以我們在這裡再一次提醒因為他還沒有就任可是他未來的做法是以"},{"start":5772.857,"end":5772.997,"text":"什麼方向?"},{"start":5800.725,"end":5805.05,"text":"經濟外交跟融幫計畫所以我們跟美國之間的外交也必須建立在共同的經濟基礎上所以除了投資創造就業我們的採購比如說我們台灣的很多採購也可以增加對美國的採購啊這個才很重視包括國會議員"},{"start":5817.906,"end":5827.895,"text":"你講的我們過去就是一直這樣做可是我們採購了很多我們要的結果都沒有這是我們要提醒的所以我們就要把這個說清楚嘛也讓外界了解你之前說得不夠清楚嗎之前說得不夠清楚嗎我們現在要說的是他現在再度入主他的做法可能會更強烈因為他必須面對選民的交代他已經78歲了所以在這裡你過去如果講得不夠清楚那你未來我相信也不會很清楚因為他的態度會比你更強烈"},{"start":5846.75,"end":5849.794,"text":"不是你跟他一樣而是他贊助了所有全球的主導地位所以我們能不能抗衡能不能不卑不亢就像剛剛部長講的我們要不卑不亢這是我們在這裡他還沒就職之前我們先提的未來還有機會那另外還要談到的就是因為部長"},{"start":5864.953,"end":5876.856,"text":"上來以後當然你要接續外交的這個工作不是那麼容易可是像之前南非要求我們撤出首都我們的代表處要撤出首都的部分現在還有立陶宛這樣子的一個狀況那我想要請教一下因為過去我們的2021年的時候外交部宣布要在波羅的海立陶宛的首都設立駐立陶宛台灣代表處雖然我們後來英文改成台灣"},{"start":5893.241,"end":5913.971,"text":"台灣跟台灣人其實是不一樣的可是我們也說服自己說這是一樣而且是一個重大的突破不管這會不會對我們有所矮化或者是我們自我安慰可是當時蔡前總統在臉書還特別指出這是重要的外交突破然後是別具意義的重要外交的一個成果當時"},{"start":5916.414,"end":5945.009,"text":"政府還由台三投資管理顧問公司大概有2億歐元的中東歐投資基金去投資立陶宛三家新創公司包括雷射公司、生技醫療公司還有一個金融科技公司那其中像雷射公司由台三協助跟台灣的企業建立合作的關係而且透過委託公研院成立的"},{"start":5946.533,"end":5963.225,"text":"《超快雷射研發創新中心》有6個合作案政府還鼓勵台灣的半導體供應鏈業者採用立陶宛的雷射技術我想要請教就是說還有金融科技公司我們投資案是中東歐"},{"start":5964.326,"end":5965.226,"text":"政府投資立陶宛已經花費在中東歐投資基金有多少經費?"},{"start":5984.765,"end":6013.607,"text":"剛剛委員提到不管是雷射、生技、金融這些投融資有它的程序那事實上金額也不大啦但是具有代表性意義比如說我們以雷射這個雷射世界上最好的雷射這個飛鳥雷射是立陶宛的國寶欸能夠跟我們合作把它發揚光大對我們的部長部長那個多好你可以用書面到時候再提供給委員會我現在要問的是政府投資立陶宛花費的中東歐投資基金有多少經費"},{"start":6014.918,"end":6022,"text":"像你剛講的那個數位金融那大概是千萬美金那以雷射這個我們跟公園院的合作我們是合資那這些都在我想總共大概在兩千萬美金這個數字我跟妳講投融資是經過嚴格的審查這是商業行為護理雙贏我們要看到我們的護理跟雙贏在哪裡請把立法院的部份的移動相關資料"},{"start":6044.045,"end":6063.767,"text":"提供相關的資料就是投資基金有多少的經費然後你說的共榮雙贏的這個部分也把結果在一個禮拜之內提供給我們相關的資料好不好好那就這個部分抱歉跟主席借一點點時間我們在之前就是外交部以二屋戰爭中"},{"start":6065.64,"end":6069.743,"text":"吳東地區醫院招砲火摧毀然後我們用公務預算我們大概編了3000萬美金的這樣的經費是要提供給烏克蘭居民在初級醫療照護設備的這個部分我們那時候簽的備忘錄我想請教一下我們在裡面我們要的資料比如說我們因為有要求要台灣"},{"start":6090.88,"end":6091,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6112.247,"end":6113.808,"text":"我們同仁會請他準備資料我們希望要有數量還要有他的種類因為他是要提供這是救命的我們已經給錢給一段時間了如果"},{"start":6128.882,"end":6129.382,"text":"我跟委員報告這裏面有5家主要的廠商跟他的數量產品"},{"start":6149.512,"end":6158.789,"text":"這是在台灣買的還是在歐洲買的?包括像明基、山峰、加碩生意、伊洋科技、宇星生意、重鼎股份有限公司有數量嗎?有,後面有數量"},{"start":6161.873,"end":6184.458,"text":"請教一下這是在臺灣採購還是在歐洲買的在歐洲這是我們雙方的合作案那我們是他在歐洲買所以你常念的剛剛部長念的這些公司在歐洲都有他的場上都有他的據點然後都有現貨是嗎你的意思是這樣嗎講清楚"},{"start":6187.578,"end":6196.256,"text":"是不是從歐洲有現貨我現在不太清楚但是他確實是台商供應的然後由捷克的這個協會去採購的"},{"start":6197.867,"end":6201.85,"text":"我在這裡先提醒一下,裡面有一家加碩生醫,這個部分也是我們臺商的新創公司,也是臺灣的新創公司,他做的愛普定免疫定量分析儀,他做的是發言指數用的,這個部分我們不曉得一個新創公司傑克為什麼會知道,因為他買的是要烏克蘭戰場上需要的,聽我講完,因為時間的關係,不好意思。"},{"start":6224.305,"end":6233.132,"text":"這個部分如果在台灣他根本沒有在歐洲有這樣子的一個現貨我不知道為什麼他要去買這個東西再加上發言指數是在特別比如說我們在醫療上面要測說你為什麼發言要找出問題點可是你在戰場上面不是被炸斷手腳不然就是有很嚴重的傷害一看那就是有發言還要做這樣的發言指數的測試嗎我們到底為什麼是買這些東西我現在只是先提供一個"},{"start":6252.728,"end":6258.21,"text":"他可能還有其他的問題我們需要的是數量因為你既然花了我們國人的納稅錢而且這是救命錢你有沒有用到位我剛剛說的這個加速聲音他過去有什麼樣的記錄在我們買快篩的時候他曾經代表國家隊他花了我們4億多的錢跟韓國進口結果他是不合格的"},{"start":6277.881,"end":6278.921,"text":"馬文君委員馬文君委員"},{"start":6315.931,"end":6319.333,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請林佳龍部長請林部長部長早安委員長因為這個美國總統昨天揭曉確定由川普再度回來白宮擔任美國的總統所以今天當然我們就會來關注的是有關於接下來台灣跟美國之間的關係"},{"start":6341.625,"end":6345.37,"text":"但是事實上昨天在同樣外交委員會的時候我已經針對我們的國安局蔡明彥蔡局長有問過了那麼當時蔡局長很明確的說就是不論是民主黨或共和黨那麼過去其實民進黨的執政現在來到了第九年"},{"start":6357.904,"end":6375.651,"text":"那麼我們其實同樣的都有面對過共和黨的總統就是川普我們也面對過現任的拜登的民主黨的總統所以說不論是誰上台或是哪一個政黨來執政這個所謂的至終然後挺台或友台的政策其實是不會改變的"},{"start":6376.511,"end":6388.374,"text":"不過我們看到其實這是中央社所整理的川普對於臺灣的政策他曾經說過如果中國進入臺灣那當然他是用進入這個字眼他會對中國課徵15%到20%的關稅對中的政策他則是認為反正中國的商品要進來我就要拉高關稅至少60%"},{"start":6399.756,"end":6421.323,"text":"那麼在關稅政策當中呢他是認為其實所有的商品進入到美國都要有20%的統一稅率對中國當然就會拉到60%到100%那麼大家外界都認為說川普就是所謂的孤立主義喔所以這整體來看起來確實符合昨天蔡局長所說的不過"},{"start":6422.779,"end":6445.246,"text":"就外交專業來看的話這個面向可以感覺上是川普的手段似乎會更凌厲那麼他有提到的部分其實我們關注的當然除了中國之外他特別提到的是在有關於進口關稅到美國的部分那麼這個部分外交部跟經濟的相關單位有沒有做一些了解是不是真的會如他所言"},{"start":6445.666,"end":6466.983,"text":"因為當然昨天我聽到吳志忠政次他在接受訪問的時候也說了選舉的時候難免有一些選舉語言那麼對於外交部來說現在這個川普確定上任之後有沒有好好的去研析川普的這些言論到底是選舉語言還是未來可能他的外交政策的執行方向"},{"start":6467.728,"end":6491.061,"text":"跟委員報告其實當他當選之後這就不只是選舉語言我們要很認真的看待因為政見他也是對選民的承諾他可能會落實為政策但是我認為用孤立主義去形容川普的路線是不太精確啦他比較是屬於在保護主義啦那他其實也是需要藉由全球的力量來幫助美國偉大"},{"start":6492.762,"end":6516.027,"text":"台灣就是可以幫助美國偉大的嘛所以我們這是一種夥伴關係我覺得這個是最深層最根本的以前是從地緣政治台灣是不是人家棋子現在不是台灣本身有主體性大家也知道第二台灣是一個民主國家跟他們的美國政府包括行政跟立法尤其是國會我們的這個價值觀是一致再來我們現在怎麼讓經濟利益一致啦"},{"start":6516.947,"end":6526.638,"text":"這個就是我們要跟著他的政策方向我們要做一點調整他有些他的政策方向是全球性的對台灣來講這個是不只是威脅他更是機會台灣要沉著應變我們要把這個挑戰轉化成我們"},{"start":6535.988,"end":6538.209,"text":"所以部長的言下之意就是接下來在經貿上面的交流包括您剛剛特別提到的榮邦計畫是非常重要的"},{"start":6556.314,"end":6573.83,"text":"但是除了臺美之間的關係之外因為本席也特別關注就是我們現在跟歐洲盟邦的部分我知道前面剛剛幾位委員都特別提到了有關於中東歐不論是投資或是融資的部分但是在這個質詢之前我想先舉一個例子"},{"start":6574.471,"end":6592.782,"text":"就是過去有一個非常有趣的這個故事的形容是說商人到非洲去看到非洲的朋友之前呢都沒有穿鞋子比較樂觀的商人就會說哇這個是充滿了機會啊因為大家都需要一雙鞋子但是呢悲觀主義者就會說不得了了他們都不穿鞋我們不用賣了"},{"start":6594.123,"end":6618.403,"text":"這個當然是一個過去台商在行走江湖的時候很喜歡講的故事但是我想要問的就是目前川普上台之後對於歐洲的變化跟關心包括我們怎麼來看那麼接下來在中東歐的部分我想舉一個我整理出來的數據這個是跟經濟部國貿署所要到的在2016年我們跟歐洲還有中東歐這些國家的貿易數字"},{"start":6619.864,"end":6623.067,"text":"所以顯然其實我們在經貿上面是拉升的這個也跟部長希望要做的一樣但是有沒有特別去了解就是說川普上來對我們的歐洲友邦或盟邦或者是我們在經營歐洲關係上面會不會有什麼樣的改變"},{"start":6644.905,"end":6658.059,"text":"其實G7他們有一些包括美國跟歐洲英法德意等國家其實我們跟G7這些年來我想對他們對台海和平穩定的關心包括自由航行權"},{"start":6660.301,"end":6677.048,"text":"這個是因為現在整個全球化雖然有一點倒退到區域主義或者比較屬於雙邊主義但基本上台海的一個和平穩定是符合包括美國跟歐洲的國家的共同利益那我們現在在歐洲因為空間是非常大"},{"start":6678.296,"end":6698.006,"text":"所以你看到這個成長因為為什麼?因為俄烏戰爭發生之後其實即使俄烏戰爭未來就是說結束了其實俄羅斯的威脅還在那他們更能夠體會到中國對台灣的威脅所以這個是在印太戰略裡面的兩端現在已經結為一體這個做基礎然後我們跟他經貿有很多互補"},{"start":6698.826,"end":6705.248,"text":"所以這個就是我們現在的開拓的空間比如說這個中東歐的計畫我們現在進步要擴展到波蘭因為波蘭未來在烏克蘭的重建裡面可能扮演很重要的角色那比如蔡英文前總統這次到法國我們的企業界去法國會覺得說那我們台積電投資在德國希望也投資在法國法國的高科技包括航太包括非常多的這個其實跟台灣也是可以合作的"},{"start":6726.016,"end":6743.338,"text":"所以我覺得歐洲的這個不只是地緣政治上未來跟我們是聯動的而且在經貿利益上還有很大的空間所以我在講說總和外交就是如果價值外交是愛情啦理念相近嘛那經濟外交就是麵包啊"},{"start":6745.048,"end":6747.37,"text":"要吃得飽所以我們現在總和外交不能夠只是講說價值怎麼樣也要講這一個經濟上的利益的關係那跟川普我很聽懂他的語言因為我做過民選的"},{"start":6760.041,"end":6766.204,"text":"立法委員：市長：所以我很能夠體會我現在蠻欣賞他的講話要順這個趨勢來布局啦所以我覺得這自助人助我們台灣的重要性我們不要小看"},{"start":6778.049,"end":6783.896,"text":"我們也不要把威脅極大化,用到什麼以美論、依賴論、依軍論,我們要自信的,勇敢自信世界同行,走向新的偉大的美國,那台灣也能夠偉大,我現在應該去找出這個交集"},{"start":6796.15,"end":6819.316,"text":"因為本席有特別找出來就是說目前以我們輸出日銀行因為我上一屆是在財政委員會那麼我們輸出日銀行有一個中東歐的融資基金那麼目前的這個融資基金當然它的方案就是立陶宛、匈牙利、斯洛伐克、捷克還有剛剛部長提到的波蘭這個我們馬上會有波蘭的大使要即將到位那麼我對他當然也不以期望我有先跟你報告對"},{"start":6821.437,"end":6838.925,"text":"那個劉大使即將要即將赴任對 那麼我的意思是其實政府也有給資源包括這個輸出銀行那麼奧地利、斯洛伐克那但是目前只有立陶宛、捷克跟斯洛伐克我也期許我們現在在過去已經有這樣的一個配套方案在這裡的時候也希望這個外交單位跟經濟單位能夠一起攜手那麼就像是部長您所說的"},{"start":6847.389,"end":6859.93,"text":"那麼另外當然國發會還有就是中東歐的投資基金所以其實我們是有兩大支柱來往前那麼目前到底除了波蘭之外另外的這些中東歐國家是不是也可以有更多的規劃"},{"start":6861.109,"end":6890.41,"text":"是 其實在以波蘭跟所謂的捷克、斯洛伐克、立陶宛等波羅的海國家有將近6千萬那在未來我想俄烏戰爭總是會結束啦我們未來其實這個地方對於我們來說是處女地那現在的一個經營之後開發結果我們跟捷克的關係很明顯其實最重要的是他們過去也受蘇聯的統治跟現在俄羅斯的威脅所以雖然說麵包很重要"},{"start":6891.531,"end":6911.25,"text":"愛情也是很重要的啦所以在這個方面總和外交的路線那整個中東歐不只是這個投資投融資工具我認為怎麼樣讓我們的科技啊跟他們合作的時候去共創合作在一些可以雙贏的產業項目上這個他們每個國家都有自己在當時啊前蘇聯時代"},{"start":6912.651,"end":6912.691,"text":"主席"},{"start":6932.825,"end":6951.23,"text":"是很好的那麼這個部分呢外交部或是相關的經濟單位其實也要拿出實證不然的話常常就會因為比如說什麼住管改名啦又或者是說相關的事情就會影響到兩邊的合作因為實質的合作其實是對雙邊國家都有利益的同意謝謝謝謝林楚瑩委員部長請回接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":6969.513,"end":6970.76,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請林部長"},{"start":6979.553,"end":7001.846,"text":"部長好今天大家都關心美國選舉的結果那川普這個人呢他的個性被大家外界普遍都認為他是比較不充滿確定性的以美國利益為至上的所以他的競選口號在第一任的時候才會叫第二任的時候才會叫做這個Make American Great Again"},{"start":7002.606,"end":7017.836,"text":"所以,他雖然充滿不確定性,但是,從另外,美國的台灣通普瑞哲曾經說過,川普是世界美國近代史上對防衛台灣最不以為然的總統。"},{"start":7018.877,"end":7034.423,"text":"川普談價格不談價值講利益不重道義那我目前跟美國的關係剛好不是這樣子很多都是感情牌那請問政府認為在這個部分當川普以講求利益為主"},{"start":7034.943,"end":7053.483,"text":"那感情微腐的狀況之下．你覺得臺美的關係．在川普跟拜登上來這個交接之後．會有哪一些差別．請注意喔我沒有說美國會不支持臺灣．我要問的是會有哪一些的差別．是外交部現在所評估的"},{"start":7055.105,"end":7073.436,"text":"其實在川普當總統的時候很多對台灣政策的創新跟突破那是過去沒有我剛剛講因為他充滿不確定性所以2016年的川普跟2024年的川普未必一樣他的發言也經過這幾年來說上上下下上串下跳"},{"start":7074.326,"end":7097.478,"text":"他2016年的說法版本跟他現在的說法版本是不一樣的所以我們要怎麼樣去因應這樣子的一個不確定性的危機這是我要請教你的問題我想經濟對他來講是目的也是一個手段所以他會用關稅然後當然一定的保護主義可是這個當然對方方會有影響他其實是來做一個"},{"start":7098.618,"end":7100.038,"text":"這也是為什麼美國這次選給川普的主要原因之一"},{"start":7125.405,"end":7142.501,"text":"但是他在這次選舉期間的政見有好幾樣跟台灣是有關的他在競選時期曾說過要求台灣的國防預算要提升至5到10%的GDP的這個部分那國防部昨天已經有表態說不可能了"},{"start":7143.641,"end":7158.168,"text":"這是美國特朗普總統的政見我們又知道他是一個非常強悍的人也不知道他當選之後會不會有這樣子的一個強迫當然我們看一下這張同影片"},{"start":7158.948,"end":7160.83,"text":"我們從107年開始我們的國防預算是1.95%那到了114年度變成2.45%增加了2885億元增幅已經高達80.47%如果明年115年增加GDP到"},{"start":7184.168,"end":7190.551,"text":"到這個10%的話要再增加7.55的GDP會直接直接往上飆升成這個模樣那請問另外一部分我會問國防部但我今天要問外交部的是請問這方面要怎麼幫國防部去跟美方來溝通說我們沒有辦法提供10%的國防預算因為這個圖太可怕了"},{"start":7212.578,"end":7231.113,"text":"這是我試算出來的是幾兆是2.96兆2.6兆的數字所以我們本來才多少我們又已經這個政府預算就很多了民主黨他們要求我們是希望提高到3%所以離2.45%左右是差了一點點"},{"start":7232.734,"end":7248.921,"text":"可是現在他們的標準達到5到10%．如果真的上到10%的話．會變成2.6兆的國防預算．所以我相信部長的角色．配合國防部昨天說不可能．一定勢必要去跟美方溝通．請問我們有什麼條件．什麼方式．什麼方向來跟美國溝通"},{"start":7255.093,"end":7279.67,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我就會跟他這樣溝通啦我們過去8年來這個國防預算持續增加將近未來也會繼續增加那這個未來的部分因為我們其實計算國防預算我們要去說明其實台灣現在退補會台灣現在全社會任性台灣現在兵役從4個月恢復到1年其實這個都是國防預算啦"},{"start":7280.29,"end":7282.811,"text":"部長您這樣講就不對了因為在川普他的這個政策裡面是分成軍購費用跟保護費用這件事您知道嗎?"},{"start":7297.725,"end":7300.147,"text":"部長,他把軍購跟保護,也就是服務費用分成兩筆,這是不同的"},{"start":7316.098,"end":7335.496,"text":"在他的論述裏面如果您有仔細看的話他沒有駐軍啦我們自己在支持我們龐大的這個軍力嘛現在這個服役又提早一年我意思是說這個計算的基礎以及他的項目因為我覺得大方向我們跟他並沒有不一樣只是說"},{"start":7336.757,"end":7354.451,"text":"這個所謂5%或10%他講的這個數字這個是一個趨勢嘛那我們的趨勢本來就持續在增加中所以我會用這種方式溝通說我不是 我不同意你的主張我們的主張有一致的方向但是怎麼做也要有執行力嘛比如說我們採購了200億的美金的這個軍購案啊他都還沒有辦法給我們啊他也有點理虧啊"},{"start":7360.956,"end":7365.519,"text":"所以我是覺得國際談判上這個沒錯這一點我支持林佳龍部長他們欠我們的武器他們要給我們我們才能去跟他購買新的武器不能很多武器都延遲交付然後你叫我給你10%的GDP暴增成如此這個大家台灣民眾能如何接受呢我們台灣的財政也無法負擔所以麻煩我們部長朝這個方向去跟美方做溝通"},{"start":7388.672,"end":7418.101,"text":"我剛談到的是保護費的概念不要講保護費啦服務費好不好這樣講比較好聽不然好像被人家黑到收什麼為事錢就是說他是分成服務的費用也就是說要不要來出兵來協助台灣等等或駐軍等等的費用跟軍事採購的費用我想請教的是這一筆服務費從外交部的角度來說你們會跟他溝通要付還是不付我們並沒有付給他啦我們付給自己啦"},{"start":7418.831,"end":7419.051,"text":"美國叫我們做的"},{"start":7435.305,"end":7437.067,"text":"川普上任後對於烏克蘭的自由協助可能會停止因為川普對於烏克蘭的戰爭一直是不以為然的"},{"start":7456.608,"end":7473.491,"text":"但是川普他又是一個我不要講他視錢如命啦但是他對美國的利益至上這件事情是無從置諱的但拜登政府任內提供了包含是PDA以及台灣的相關的軍購的融資的服務"},{"start":7474.372,"end":7494.732,"text":"那所以呢基本上在這個部分FMF可能在共和黨上任之後會停止這一部分的援助那請問如果拜登政府提供給我們的免費軍援也就是PDA跟FMF停止的時候我們要怎麼協助國防部跟共和黨溝通請他們繼續免費的提供台灣"},{"start":7499.603,"end":7518.966,"text":"軍援其實美國在通過國會的法案它是有約束力的那姑且不講這個PTA跟FNF它的NDA、NDIS這有具體的一些撥款或者是一些項目不過不一定只是來自於就是所謂的Predential Jordan Authority這樣的一個機制那都可以改啊"},{"start":7520.339,"end":7523.823,"text":"我認為國會選舉我們有持續觀察共和黨的國會議員挺台的力道挺台的力道高對高挺台的力道高對歸高但是問題是要給錢的時候那又是另外一回事我們自己如果採購武器自己付錢是很自然的"},{"start":7540.1,"end":7564.059,"text":"但是PDA跟EMF都是美國免費提供軍援給台灣這是拜登上任以後才有的政策所以我們是在講如果川普他們去改了這個政策變成不提供了那我們外交部有沒有管到或是我們會不會向美方來針對這個部分做抗議不會"},{"start":7565.22,"end":7568.242,"text":"主席借我一分鐘我問最後一個問題喔川普呢他在競選期間他說台灣搶走美國的半導體部長您同意他說的這句話嗎"},{"start":7595.133,"end":7612.691,"text":"這句話是有問題的啊但是就是所謂因為其實半導體產業我其實計算過台灣現在整個在所有的供應鏈我們占不到兩成啊對啊我們的這個主要是製造這個端嘛所以我們台灣賺一塊美國是賺三塊"},{"start":7614.172,"end":7618.073,"text":"不只是台積電外資佔的六七成喔連他的這個整個供應鏈裡面部長 這個道理我都懂所以我才替台灣人報不平所以我們都做到這樣了川普總統還說台灣搶了美國的晶片所以他未來會不會在這方面課重稅或對台灣下重手這是外交部要強力去關注的您同意嗎對 我們都密切注意當中"},{"start":7643.683,"end":7668.472,"text":"那如果有任何的變動是他真的按照他過去的說法因為我也坦白跟部長說他可能過去說他未來不一定會做這也是有可能的我並沒有要給外交部過大的壓力但如果你們觀察到真的他繼續針對台灣的半導體要求我們提供任何的不合理的服務項目或者是關稅或者是金錢、經濟等等的話"},{"start":7670.413,"end":7673.495,"text":"外交部會向美方嚴正提出抗議嗎?"},{"start":7684.258,"end":7684.978,"text":"其實我跟委員報告美國的這些半導體的專家、業者還有媒體都已經替我們說了"},{"start":7703.148,"end":7704.149,"text":"他替我們說不如我們自己說如果別人都幫我們說但我們卻不幫自己說的話我們一定要幫自己說"},{"start":7718.426,"end":7731.81,"text":"對,所以請部長喔,如果川普總統他當選以後繼續維持選舉期間的選舉口號跟步調沒有改變的話請外交部一定要嚴正的提出譴責保護台灣的半導體產業,可以嗎?"},{"start":7734.926,"end":7748.254,"text":"我覺得他是個法治國家就要看他提的法案具體的內容啦沒有我就說假使發生這種狀況嘛因為這是有可能發生的狀況嘛沒有當然最好我們都樂得開心啊但假使國會也通過了美國總統也這麼做了那"},{"start":7750.755,"end":7759.401,"text":"我們是不是就要發表嚴正的抗議並且要實質上的去做溝通你是不是要承諾有這件事情而不是說我們一定會去溝通的其他人有幫我們講話我們就算了我們要為自己發聲保留台灣的半導體這是我們的經濟命脈從國民黨早期執政的時候一個豆漿會然後呢想出我們要做半導體一路一路一路到現在我們在大樹之下乘涼"},{"start":7778.194,"end":7778.234,"text":"謝謝時間到了謝謝"},{"start":7806.495,"end":7835.194,"text":"謝謝徐巧欣委員部長請回待會兒洪森漢委員質詢完畢之後休息5分鐘好那我們有請這個下一位是林益君委員上台發言"},{"start":7836.852,"end":7838.178,"text":"謝謝主席 有請林部長"},{"start":7850.326,"end":7851.427,"text":"我沒有想過這個問題"},{"start":7872.344,"end":7884.689,"text":"你知道為什麼我要這樣問嗎?因為本席very concerned very very worried部長你知道本席問這樣有沒有不妥啊?你知道我是在關心你還是在憂心啊?你知道為什麼你覺得你對本席這個說法應該是有點熟悉吧?我覺得應該說"},{"start":7892.432,"end":7909.1,"text":"其實民主國家選舉競爭跟政黨的問題是常態所以我們要用歡喜心來迎接美國的民意產生的新總統我們跟他是一個夥伴關係所以不用憂心的就是說要關心不要憂心"},{"start":7909.6,"end":7933.159,"text":"對,但是不然你可能不知道,因為你們的吳次長對這次美國大選說了這些話,那到底是關心還是憂心?那你認為吳次長這樣的說法有沒有過多嗎?他已經澄清了,因為那個不是訪問,結果他那個後來有更正,那個,那個是...但是媒體應該不可能,因為他沒有講的這個字而有這樣...有有有,他真的去更正了耶,那家媒體因為他不是訪問,然後他自己也誤解了,所以他就澄清了"},{"start":7933.86,"end":7936.562,"text":"我們請同仁拿給委員參考我們也知道身為外交人員對於美國這麼重要的選舉其實不應該有這樣的字眼所以以後可能要注意一下然後我剛才因為徐曉勳委員有詢問了但是我還是想要再詢問一下就是"},{"start":7952.156,"end":7953.617,"text":"部長你應該很有印象就是選前川普曾經說過我們台灣的國防經費應該提高到GDP的10%但是以台灣現在114年的預估GDP26.4兆的10%來計算就是2.64兆"},{"start":7969.563,"end":7990.738,"text":"那這樣佔總稅出的84%那也就是說我們目前國防預算的將近要5倍那這是無論如何都是我們不可能做得到的事情那請問部長你覺得川普就任後會不會強硬的要求台灣要提高國防預算其實不管5%或40%這是一個期許啦就是我們要有自衛防衛的決心也要透過我們的能力來呈現就這一點"},{"start":7996.127,"end":8019.274,"text":"百分之十是非常高欸我說這個是一個期許的方向要增加我就告訴他說我們也在增加過去半年已經被增那我們未來也會持續在被增啦因為部長你也知道川普過去的作為啦你認為他是不是屬於那種比較難預測的領導人呢我倒不會欸我覺得其實民主本來就充滿了各種可能性"},{"start":8021.215,"end":8024.718,"text":"那你們有沒有針對明年川普要上台之後可能的台美互動做一些兵推呢還是說如果他們真的強硬我們要要求那麼提高這樣的國防預算外交部要如何因應呢這個有沒有做過內部的推演有"},{"start":8040.689,"end":8057.429,"text":"如果你們有做過了這樣推演,你們是打算如何的因應呢?我們事先其實就採取一些溝通,然後事後當然也要因應。所以就這個部分,我們,他現在人事的安排,我們又更清楚會知道他政策的內容,跟輕重環節。"},{"start":8058.61,"end":8077.438,"text":"所以我們會一步一步的來隨著他的這個交接期間他的組織政府也要經過國會同意一般來講這些像國務卿等等這個都要經過大概到明年3月國會正式這個開議之後我們這個交接期就是一個很好去溝通"},{"start":8078.238,"end":8093.483,"text":"事實上他執政過4年的時間川普政府下面的不管是過去的官員或現在的這些參與決策的幕僚我們都有在聯繫也有很溝通的管道"},{"start":8094.403,"end":8121.582,"text":"這次的美國總統大選的話美國國內有一些社會撕裂的情況是非常嚴重的對於彼此的各種的攻擊所以選舉期間也發現過好多的激烈的行為就是川普兩次差點被暗殺然後選舉前兩天投票率好像也有一些炸彈恐嚇的案件那各地的投票所也陸續加裝了防彈的玻璃那部長你認為選後會再次出現美國這種大規模的暴動的可能性有多高呢?"},{"start":8123.016,"end":8136.706,"text":"應該沒有吧?因為他的一個勝選是還蠻清楚的,不是說少數的票啦,或者是說這個計算的問題啦。那賀錦麗副總統,總統候選他會表達恭賀,而且就是說會協助他政權順利的交接。所以我想這次選舉應該不會有什麼後續這種大的這種社會的這種分老啦。"},{"start":8152.52,"end":8153.601,"text":"報告委員 瓜地馬拉、貝里斯、聖露西亞、聖文森、聖克里斯多普五個國家"},{"start":8172.33,"end":8188.009,"text":"台灣在加勒比海有拉丁美洲有大概有7個邦加國那你巴拉圭和海地這些兩個國家有去嗎海地在南美洲比較遠未來會去那海地因為現在的狀況這兩個國家就是這一次沒有去嗎對不對對會找機會去"},{"start":8189.651,"end":8204.105,"text":"那是不是邦交關係不穩定還是因為有個別原因呢今年沒有去的國家會不會跟我們斷交啊因為你都去了五個國家這兩個國家沒去會不會他們就會會不會會有這種斷交的危險啊那部長你外交部有沒有掌握"},{"start":8205.471,"end":8205.752,"text":"外交部部長"},{"start":8236.732,"end":8257.706,"text":"原首外交尤其是出訪當然對國家很重要我們這個外交部主要是協助總統府做好幕僚的作業跟第一線的這些行政工作有關相關出訪的地點時間會由總統府他如果有這樣的安排的話他會對外公布"},{"start":8258.79,"end":8272.996,"text":"現在剛好遇到美國大選剛好有結果年底將會是美國政府的一個過渡時期所以這個時間如果安排出訪過境美國這樣你覺得會恰當嗎?你覺得呢?還是覺得明年上任的時候外交部才做這樣的安排呢?"},{"start":8274.236,"end":8296.946,"text":"就是目前並沒有這樣的一個就是說規劃有的話會跟委員報告我希望外交部站在專業評估的立場上國際情勢還有兩岸的情況要如實呈報作為總統出訪安全的依歸不要讓台灣人民在短時間又受到了驚擾這樣好謝謝部長然後部長請回謝謝"},{"start":8302.745,"end":8305.669,"text":"陸委會副主委陸委會選前有沒有做過兩套劇本的兵推?"},{"start":8322.613,"end":8344.109,"text":"我們沒有做過嚴格的兵推但是每一種情況我們大概都預想過那我們也知道兩岸關係現在相牽在美中的關係上面陸委會預判明年川普就任之後兩岸關係會出現怎樣的變動呢那副主委你對兩岸關係未來幾年的發展你是樂觀還是悲觀看待呢"},{"start":8347.165,"end":8365.028,"text":"因為這一次的勝負狀態很明顯我們本來預期說它會是很膠著的狀況甚至可能有點像2020年的狀況但是昨天看起來勝負狀態很明顯所以短期之內台海局勢不會因為有空窗期然後出現變數"},{"start":8366.601,"end":8387.416,"text":"那未來的話,我覺得現在可能很多也,大家都媒體上看到了,大陸可能比我們更頭痛,所以其實不只台灣跟大陸,跟全世界各國都在看說美國政府,新政府的政策方向跟走向,所以"},{"start":8388.797,"end":8409.029,"text":"目前來說的話沒有人能夠說出一個很明確的方向不過我個人覺得說美國的兩黨他在對台灣跟對中國的這個政策基本上態度跟立場都還蠻一致的所以短期之內應該不會有什麼特別的變化"},{"start":8409.329,"end":8409.849,"text":"其實委員所提到的大陸的學者或者是一些媒體"},{"start":8437.557,"end":8460.584,"text":"正反意見都有啦,正反意見都有那大陸的高層或是他們的政府決策高層他們是不會透露他們的意向的那會透露會講的通常都在政策上面沒有實質的影響力所以我們在媒體上面所看到或是這些學者所講的我們只是作為一個參考但是他們的作用到底在哪裡我們還是會觀察"},{"start":8463.525,"end":8467.649,"text":"主席再給我一點時間接著本席想要請問有關共軍山東號的航空母艦前幾天有估計上個週末會通過台灣南端跟呂宋島之間的巴林塘海峽會進入西太平洋那據說跟著山東號一起出港的還有綜合補給艦還有054A的巡防艦跟052D的驅逐艦這是一個很完整的艦隊的規模"},{"start":8488.766,"end":8492.548,"text":"那針對中國解放軍這樣的動態就有學者會分析這是針對河南眾議院訪問台灣在進行恫嚇嗎?那主委你認為這可能性有多大呢?還有那中國會不會趁著這一次的航空母艦的編隊遠航在美國大選之後又再次舉行聯合歷艦2024期的軍演?那主委你判斷有沒有這種可能性?這種可能性有多大?"},{"start":8514.88,"end":8534.392,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告我們本來會擔心說美國的選舉的這個勝負局勢如果他太接近的話那可能會有一些力量他會覺得說可以趁著這個空窗期來做一些挑釁的動作"},{"start":8535.613,"end":8559.697,"text":"但是昨天這樣看起來的話勝負很明確所以我相信這些變數不太會產生那如果說現在中共的不管是他們山東建也好或其他建也好現在正是這個中共例行演訓的一段期間所以他們各類的演訓都有那我們認為說這個不是特別針對這個美國總統選舉是"},{"start":8565.317,"end":8572.325,"text":"希望陸委會對於兩岸的未來還是要多多的對話和交流,千萬不要讓國人再次的陷入恐慌跟恐懼。"},{"start":8592.967,"end":8596.091,"text":"接下來我們請羅美琳委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請林部長有請林部長"},{"start":8615.107,"end":8625.376,"text":"特朗普即將要重訪白宮,那部長早上你有提到就是說在臺美這個強健的夥伴關係基礎上面美國跨黨派對臺灣的支持跟對臺灣的安全承諾都會延續那我也很認同那剛剛部長更是提到說我們要勇敢自信美國偉大我們會跟著偉大"},{"start":8639.327,"end":8658.455,"text":"川普並非拜登,所以拜登對台政策,川普不可能全面跟隨。本期在上個月有看到華府智庫布魯金斯研究所資深研究員普瑞澤和何瑞恩提到,川普當選對台灣的態度會"},{"start":8661.076,"end":8677.759,"text":"向他對其他的外交議題一樣難以預測與其他會交易的心態來處理台灣的議題甚至會要求他認為說會為美國提供更多的利益比如說增加軍購還有投資等等那這種"},{"start":8678.8,"end":8685.206,"text":"教育的這個方式,部長你會不會擔心會讓台灣成為美中談判中的這個籌碼,他這個心態,我不曉得部長你有沒有這個想法那這跟拜登時代,川普這個跟拜登時代他對台灣採取這個深化經濟關係加強安全合作還有提升台灣的國際地位的做法是有很大的不同"},{"start":8701.903,"end":8702.023,"text":"主席"},{"start":8719.958,"end":8721.259,"text":"跟委員報告有關21世紀臺美貿易倡議第一階段"},{"start":8739.469,"end":8764.087,"text":"的談判已經確定了,年底前會宣布完成所有的程序至於第二階段也在談判中也相當有進展當然因為原來12個項目裡面也還有第三階段所以我們會循序漸進先確保第一階段如期通過第二階段的談判現在也是順利在進行中"},{"start":8764.847,"end":8786.472,"text":"所以這個21世紀這個貿易的倡議他是一個就是分階段的那後面那因為川普的一個他的這個對於貿易的看法我們也必須要納入考慮那另外一個是避免雙重瞌睡這個是比較跨黨派"},{"start":8787.712,"end":8814.26,"text":"因應很多要投資美國其實像基斯蘭很多國家跟台灣都有簽所以這方面我們會持續努力看起來也是會獲得一定的支持其他的有關投資美國因為因應著未來可能就是晶片法案的執行新的可能性的發展我們也密切注意我們也會增加對美國的投資跟採購"},{"start":8815.8,"end":8837.001,"text":"我覺得都要因應他新總統有新的名義嘛那台美關係要好啊一定是要做相應的我們來加強那至於說每個總統有他的領導風格我倒不認為說這裡面會涉及難以預測大家都可以預測得到啊因為他的他的Mega他的讓美國再次偉大的主張很"},{"start":8838.211,"end":8839.973,"text":"其實部長對川普好像還蠻了解的喔早上的質詢我看你還蠻自信的應該說這是一個可能的變局但是有挑戰有機會那到底我們結果會怎麼樣也取決於我們自己的作為這個不是已經決定結果的"},{"start":8857.051,"end":8857.592,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":8873.871,"end":8899.477,"text":"市長我想請教就是說我剛有提到畢竟是兩個不同的一個政黨領導人也都不一樣不可能做法會跟我們像拜登時代是一模一樣他全面接收他的這個對台政策那我剛一起提到就是說像我們在21世紀貿易的這個協議這個倡議的話本席有提到說為什麼會問這一題其實跟他過去的態度有關因為川普不是第一次當總統"},{"start":8900.777,"end":8922.203,"text":"之前就當總統那之前他對台灣的這個貿易談判是怎麼樣的狀況的我們所知道就是說美國跟台灣的這個貿易談判在川普期間是完全是被擱置的部長你應該這個可以理解然後不管是在這個任何形式投資的協議或是自由貿易協定或是要把台灣納入任何更廣泛的貿易架構等等其實我們是沒有任何進展的"},{"start":8922.623,"end":8940.389,"text":"在上一次他當總統的時候為什麼本席會問說那我們跟拜登政府在簽訂的這些倡議這些協定會不會因為新政府上來呢然後有所改變那是因為對應回去他過去在當總統的時候對台灣的一些貿易談判的一些態度"},{"start":8941.641,"end":8969.269,"text":"所以我想對於就是說所謂的簽訂自由貿易協定這個當然是一個大的挑戰不過臺美關係像避免雙重瞌睡這個是互利也很重要要投資美國的配套那至於說臺美21世紀貿易創意這樣的一個機制已經進行第一階段First Agreement已經通過了現在只是把最後行政權益完成我們很有信心所以你很有信心說會有所發展但是未來的還沒有"},{"start":8971.055,"end":8973.538,"text":"今天早上有很多委員提到所謂的晶片法"},{"start":8989.176,"end":9012.293,"text":"因為川普在10月底接受這個Podcast的節目訪問的時候他有再次的質疑這個晶片法對於這個外國公司的一些補助甚至有學者在推論就是說川普當選之後可能會推翻拜登政府呢他依這個晶片法提供給台積電比如說在亞利桑那州鳳凰鎮他有設廠嘛他有提供66億美元的這個補助部長你認為這個事情會發生嗎"},{"start":9017.336,"end":9036.443,"text":"因為他會吸引他去投資嘛因為這對美國有利那我想未來是不是就是說在金面法案未來會有新的法我們當然密切注意那另外一個就是免稅這兩個是他當時去吸引包括台積電事實上去美國投資的一個誘因那"},{"start":9038.044,"end":9063.973,"text":"因為最重要是說這個成果對美國來講他已經某種程度達到投資美國所以後續怎麼去處理我在談的就是說不要把它變成一個零和的那好他如果沒有去給予這個未來更這個未來進一步的補助那當然這個供應鏈就不是那麼容易在美國嘛他是為他自己的利益補助的啊"},{"start":9064.993,"end":9087.729,"text":"不是只是為了說台積電去補助所以這個是我覺得現在隨著就是選舉過後很多事情會沉澱下來那大家很務實的來面對找出共同的基礎我覺得台美關係我很有信心不只是理念相近我們是厲害與共"},{"start":9088.63,"end":9103.185,"text":"那在這種情形之下台灣要有信心不要再像最近有人操作以美論、以賴論、以軍論一大堆以啦台灣要有自信我們要做我們自己該做要展現決心跟能力來保護我們自己"},{"start":9103.926,"end":9105.687,"text":"這一點我跟委員報告就是說國人可以要關心"},{"start":9118.837,"end":9121.22,"text":"我們希望說,我們現在是面對一個不同情境的一個狀況所以外交部應該因應不同的這個情境來做一個政策的一些因應這是我們給予外交部一個提醒"},{"start":9138.82,"end":9138.88,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9159.113,"end":9160.334,"text":"臺灣會變成一個美中談判的籌碼或是臺灣會不會被邊緣化這是我們所擔心的這個問題"},{"start":9181.562,"end":9208.742,"text":"當然也跟川普的對外關係有很大的關係因為他畢竟覺得說這個盟友關係、夥伴關係不是那麼重要這是他從上一屆的時候我們就有看到所以不同的政府、不同的一些政策、不同的態度當然我們希望外交部能夠神聖以對樂觀當然是要樂觀可是我們如何去應變這整個政策的改變我想這是應該外交部要跟各部會去做通盤的來做討論跟合作的部分"},{"start":9209.102,"end":9219.318,"text":"尤其我們的這個軟實力我們的供應力如此強如何維持維持繼續維持我們的這競爭優勢我在想這一點是外交部跟各部會應該要來審慎來處理的部分"},{"start":9221.943,"end":9244.842,"text":"我同意委員,臺美關係歷經很多的階段在現在為止,我想川普總統他形成的政府他的主張我們要很重視他現在的人事任命我們也密切關注後續行政跟立法,特別是總統跟國會的關係其實他共同形成了一些政策"},{"start":9245.402,"end":9267.134,"text":"美國是一個多元政治一個民主國家所以我們要了解它的一個運作的機制那我想外交部尤其是我們駐美代表處我們其實在選前我們的各種的對情勢的評估我們都有納入今天這種選舉結果所以我們也在第一時間都按照我們原來的規劃在推展中所以我要講的就是說"},{"start":9269.536,"end":9283.977,"text":"選舉競爭跟政黨輪替是民主國家的常態那他有很長的名義會增加川普未來對外交更大的一個籌碼這個是事實那他也想不佔了屈人之兵所以他現在講一句話全世界都要聽啊"},{"start":9285.491,"end":9311.883,"text":"我們對岸的中國也是很注意所以我是覺得我們不要好像是限縮在台灣好像是針對台灣全世界都在看我們要沉著的應處我想說這個是有一些挑戰但是也充滿機會因為這個在變局中台灣的角色怎麼樣能夠自助人助怎麼樣能夠確保我們自己國家的安全"},{"start":9312.683,"end":9313.524,"text":"謝謝龍美林委員 林部長請回"},{"start":9340.801,"end":9342.062,"text":"請沈博洋委員上台質詢"},{"start":9367.393,"end":9382.618,"text":"部長好、副主委好那因為有些問題剛好兩個都有所以我就想說先一次性的那第一個還是要覺得趙偉真的很厲害因為我們昨天最擔心的事情就是大選結果沒有出來結果出來了所以我們今天反而可以問這個問題那這個最近因為因應美國的選舉結果已經出來了"},{"start":9391.681,"end":9408.497,"text":"那不管是美國還是日本對於現在的這一個經濟安全的這一個保障是越來越多了那我在別的這個不管是在經濟部跟國防部都有特別提到這個所謂供應鏈的問題那因為有紅色供應鏈啊非紅色供應鏈啊等等之類的那這個是這個"},{"start":9409.858,"end":9425.476,"text":"最近因為有台積電這個流出的問題那我已經問了經濟部我昨天也有問國安局那其實裡面最重要的事情就是我在第三點這邊寫的那三家華為、比特大陸跟算能科技那我為什麼要問這個是因為他們是白手套"},{"start":9427.117,"end":9448.435,"text":"算能科技是白手套,它屬於比特大陸他們作為白手套把先進的AI晶片留到華為那這件事情經濟部當時我在問的時候他們說這個華為並沒有在他們的這個清單裡面那當時是因為說第一個是因為他們沒有及時的更新美國的清單因為美國的清單太早了"},{"start":9448.635,"end":9450.076,"text":"因為外交部跟陸委會都在戰略性高科技貨品出口實體管理名單的小組"},{"start":9467.784,"end":9483.294,"text":"所以我想問一下兩位關於這件事情的意見因為我是不太希望就是說到最後經濟部又說因為其他的部會有一些別的想法所以他們不覺得這個東西應該放在這個清單裡所以想問一下外交部跟陸委會對這件事情的意見"},{"start":9486.135,"end":9513.186,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為對於晶片是就是戰略性的產業所以它的出口管制我想有個國際的規範之外其實美國也透過FED4就是美、台、日、韓在形成一個管制的一個規範所以我們基本上就是要配合這個方面至於個案的發生我想就是"},{"start":9515.693,"end":9533.926,"text":"臺積電也對外做說明這個部分也會未來做檢討所以大的方向是在整個出國管制上的國際合作臺灣會參加我們也必須要配合因為中國還是一個最大的競爭對手對美國對臺灣都是如此"},{"start":9538.929,"end":9555.126,"text":"謝謝部長,因為華為一直都不在清單裡面我自己是覺得有點不太理想不管怎樣華為在中國是非常具有代表性的一家公司那它如果沒有在清單裡面剩下就算這些彼特大陸跟算能科技在中間運作我們都沒有辦法去做一些相關的處置那副主委不知道有...謝謝"},{"start":9557.716,"end":9579.296,"text":"陸委會確實在這個小組裡面但是這個小組最近確實在review一些還要新增一些名單新增一些名單那目前是還沒有確定目前還沒有確定那根據最近的一些個案的發生等等我想這個小組都會"},{"start":9581.118,"end":9608.651,"text":"都會加以考慮謝謝副主委因為大概在兩個多我應該是大概在兩個多又要再review一次那我那時候會再做一次的追蹤那接下來就是說這一個剛剛前面這個美林委員也有提到這全球供應鏈現在是中國跟非中國所以呢這一個部分我覺得對我們的風險評估真的是非常的重要那但是就是說因為現在供應鏈分化其實台商他都會有這些風險的評估那不知道陸委會現在對於台商這方面的一些"},{"start":9610.131,"end":9637.127,"text":"一些建議或者說風險評估現在進行的狀況是如何?我覺得台商其實分成他們的類型不太一樣有一些是上市貴公司的這種台商有一種是我們傳統的台商那很多台商是去了三十幾年的那這些每一類台商他們所面對的這個風險跟機會都不太相同"},{"start":9638.527,"end":9664.267,"text":"那但是其實全部的台商面對到同一個最大的問題就是說第一個就是中國的相關的所謂的國安法或是反間諜法等等就是人身安全的問題這個陸委會都有在警告嗎?這個我們都有在警告那但是個別的台商他們所面對的狀況不太一樣譬如說現在因為中國大陸的經濟問題"},{"start":9666.311,"end":9692.402,"text":"那麼他們過去對於這些中小企業的台商可能想要騰龍換鳥或是想要有一點不是很重視但是現在又開始拿政策拿很多獎勵出來希望他們留下來所以大家所面對的狀況是不太一樣那有些人他有辦法離開有些人他有辦法轉到其他國家"},{"start":9692.722,"end":9707.24,"text":"但是有些人他可能就乾脆停止經營這個狀況不翼而逐但是我覺得總的來看的話臺灣對中國的投資是逐年下降的那這個是我們可以看到的趨勢是很明顯的"},{"start":9708.621,"end":9730.428,"text":"謝謝,那是希望因為經濟部某種程度當然是要去一些輔導但經濟部現在對於不管是這一個非紅供應鏈的這件事情又或者說制裁清單看起來還沒有完全跟上那其實他這方面的知識還是需要仰賴陸委會所以希望陸委會能夠給經濟部多一些這方面的協助那接下來這一件事情部長可能可以先休息一下因為這個完全是陸委會的業務"},{"start":9733.35,"end":9747.198,"text":"這個我先跳過因為這個我昨天問過國防部我想先問這一件事情因為現在時間的關係就是說呢因為最近有在講說就是假設他今天是這個中國人"},{"start":9749.059,"end":9771.619,"text":"那他要在台灣參選等等之類的這些我們本來就已經有相對應的一些規範但有時候會有另外一種情形就是說譬如說他今天是他是台灣但是他在其他的地方有取得中國的護照那很多時候時其實在台商身上因為我們自己在家裡做生意我們也知道其實中國在某一段時間其實在海外是常常在發中國護照的"},{"start":9772.719,"end":9794.791,"text":"現在有兩件事情一個就是剛剛前面這個事情就是說這個其實不是我們官方的所以是無關但是他是無戶籍的國民他有中華人民共和國的一個護照那在這樣的一個情形裡面他在台灣的投票權應該是如何這是第一個問題第二個問題就是最近新聞剛好有在傳就是某辦公室的這個助理那他是這個中國籍"},{"start":9797.772,"end":9823.379,"text":"中國籍之後他現在來到台灣來到台灣之後因為他也是在這一個不分區的名單上面我知道陸委會之前有做過相關的解釋是用國際法第20條但因為國際法第20條它是中華民國兼具外國國籍者我們是因為把它放在中華民國國民嗎所以做一個擴張的解釋不知道陸委會對這件事情有沒有一個新的解釋因為這有可能是我們最近就可能會遇到的一個問題所以就這兩點想問一下陸委會的一個見解"},{"start":9829.372,"end":9832.797,"text":"我先從後面這個問題回答回來"},{"start":9835.342,"end":9861.609,"text":"我們的兩岸條例跟國籍法它其實規定了不同的樣態我們的兩岸條例是說你入籍就是說大陸人民取得中華民國的身份證之後差不多10年你可以有參政權但是我們的國籍法是規定你要擔任公職你必須你不能有雙重國籍"},{"start":9863.39,"end":9886.988,"text":"那所以這兩套法律他在解釋上面會產生一個衝突那所以如果說真的要把這個問題解決我們陸委會到目前為止我們從去年到現在我們對這個問題的看法是一貫的也就是說兩岸人民關係條例只保障你的參政權但是你真的要認公職的時候你要根據國際法就回到國際法"},{"start":9888.168,"end":9891.03,"text":"國際法的主管單位是內政部,內政部可能要有比較明確的解釋"},{"start":9903.716,"end":9932.065,"text":"所以這個部分我們到陸委會到目前的態度都是這樣好那因為這件事情我那個韓國的那個我們可以先暫緩就是說這件事情我們知道陸委會他有一個基本的解釋那我們可能會把這個解釋再去問內政部先確保因為我覺得這個是一定要在很早的時候就先確認那到底是要在他就任之前就要先申請然後過了一年之後再怎樣我覺得這種事情一定要先確認好我覺得規則要先說好那講到規則我就想問最後一個問題就是這次劉德華來台灣演唱"},{"start":9933.125,"end":9960.591,"text":"當然這邊還是要跟大家說明一下就是很多人說他是政協那他其實不是啦他並至少在官方的資料裡面我們看不到他是政協委員那他只是這一個那個電影什麼XX什麼協會的一個什麼副主席但是我在這邊並不是要問劉德華本身我想是問的是說因為陸委會當時有出了一個這個結論就是說沒有傷害台灣的言論所以同意演出"},{"start":9961.591,"end":9978.83,"text":"我對這個沒有意見我想問的就是因為那個紅線現在看起來就是有沒有傷害台灣言論但有沒有傷害台灣言論有點抽象那因為以後一定會有更多的事情那以後這個紅線大概是劃在哪裡如果會不會有一個比較精準對於傷害台灣言論的一個解釋"},{"start":9981.039,"end":9990.55,"text":"我們對於傷害台灣的言論解釋就是說你不可以貶低台灣的地位做一個國家的地位那這個是我們最基本的要求"},{"start":9996.136,"end":10014.907,"text":"至於劉德華這個事情我們的立場是一貫的因為很多人說他是什麼政協或是什麼但是我們查過了他並沒有政協的官方資料而且說實在政協在中國的黨政體制裡面是一個比較邊緣的位置"},{"start":10016.488,"end":10030.073,"text":"我們陸委會在審查的時候不會以有沒有當政協來作為標準如果說現化在政協的話可能很多的中國的這個"},{"start":10032.148,"end":10048.459,"text":"官方的人士或是什麼黨政軍的人士都沒有辦法來對啦 如果政協諮詢委員還包含進去那就更多了對 對 對 對所以我們的線就是這樣就是說你要來可以那我們的基本要求就是你不能夠貶低台灣的地位"},{"start":10049.42,"end":10073.149,"text":"那如果有發生這樣的情況我們會請你離境那就像前一陣子有這個在西門町有發生搶旗子的那件事情我們也是立刻請他離境那這是我們的最基本的標準那當然其他的官方人士來的話我們可能還有別的特殊考慮那個就是個案處理case by case"},{"start":10073.769,"end":10074.87,"text":"謝謝沈博洋委員,副主委請回"},{"start":10105.066,"end":10107.267,"text":"接下來我們請洪森漢委員上台質詢稍早的修正待會楊從英委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘謝謝主席那個請林部長跟請林部長還有副主委"},{"start":10135.252,"end":10150.023,"text":"兩位不好意思我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件還是受傷的狀況但我還是想要請問因為大家都講到當然美國大選的結果現在出來那我們知道"},{"start":10151.304,"end":10166.813,"text":"臺灣政府其實一直以來我們跟共和黨民主黨的關係都很緊密我想這部分大家不會多做質疑但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面還是有一些地方會是有不同"},{"start":10168.274,"end":10187.913,"text":"那尤其是我想剛才前面有幾位委員都問到了尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰也包括在科技管制上面的做法目前判斷起來是有可能會比這個拜登政府來的更去強硬跟嚴格"},{"start":10191.236,"end":10216.51,"text":"這幾天尤其是這段時間我們的先進晶片流入到華為的這個事情坦白說很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常的關切我想先問一下部長跟副主委你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方部長"},{"start":10220.688,"end":10242.831,"text":"當然瓦森納協定這個國際的規範因為我們沒辦法參加但我們是依這個做基礎可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範那美國當然也透過FF4所謂的這個四個主要的我們非紅供應鏈就是美、台、日、韓我就只問說你覺得台灣我們的政府"},{"start":10243.551,"end":10254.942,"text":"對於這些科技跟經濟安全的管制的工作有沒有值得再強化跟加強的地方?有,我們還有需要再加強的地方不然你覺得哪些地方需要加強?"},{"start":10256.121,"end":10272.683,"text":"我想就是因為這個科技的發展日新月異有關於半導體這個部分整個供應鏈因為中國是一個很多民主國家認定的戰略競爭者所以對他的管制是比較嚴同樣的我想問副主委"},{"start":10276.152,"end":10276.612,"text":"臺灣有很多東西還要做"},{"start":10293.807,"end":10309.193,"text":"我舉個例子,現在我們通過了所謂的關鍵技術的管制,但是因為受限於種種因素,那些關鍵技術的管制它的範圍是不是足夠?"},{"start":10310.333,"end":10313.436,"text":"我這邊想要也跟兩位說我今天踩在一個執政黨立法委員的角度"},{"start":10330.402,"end":10353.539,"text":"兩位都會是我們整體國安團隊的成員對於現在尤其是川普總統上台以後當國際上面對於科技管制尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視甚至要求越來越具體的時候我自己確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的"},{"start":10355.154,"end":10367.921,"text":"我希望兩位也可以向我們整體的國安團隊也包括我們的財經部會應該要明確的反映這已經是攸關台灣整體利益的事情了"},{"start":10368.988,"end":10386.808,"text":"我們如果沒有做好,比方說像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情不管它是在哪一個環節上面流到華為這很有可能會重傷國際對於台灣的信任我們都還不講說這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面"},{"start":10388.991,"end":10414.366,"text":"但這會重傷對台灣的信任所以當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈韌性的供應鏈安全的供應鏈的時候這對台灣來說是相當不利的事情尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候我不去還是要想要表達從一個執政黨的委員非常非常關切這件事情希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他包括國安團隊來傳達這件事情這是第一個"},{"start":10417.427,"end":10423.51,"text":"第2個我想請教因為這幾天我們看到印度市長級的官員其實也來到台灣來談關於MOU移工引進MOU的問題"},{"start":10429.462,"end":10456.777,"text":"部長,我想你應該也認識我們其實在過去在台印關係的處理上面有一位陳牧民老師陳牧民老師在今年6月的時候他寫了一篇投書我念一下這篇投書的內容他是這樣寫的他說印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益直接接洽台灣的各政府部門甚至直接談判"},{"start":10458.138,"end":10480.227,"text":"由於台灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制這就給印度政府各個急迫的機會他的意思很簡單是當印度政府他們很靈活的來跟台灣的各個部會自行來做"},{"start":10481.294,"end":10481.494,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10497.116,"end":10498.377,"text":"同意,我跟委員也報告,確實啊"},{"start":10518.851,"end":10546.289,"text":"因為很多國家的外交部會是負責包括對外的經貿的談判可是台灣的情形因為過去外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯我們現在進來在行政院成立了經濟外交工作小組我們會加強這方面跨部會的協調那特別是通報制度所以行政院也已經通函各部會"},{"start":10547.19,"end":10570.453,"text":"未來一些就是說外國駐台的這個代表或者是大使這個所有跟我們的交涉是要通報就是包括外交部在內通報制度的建立是第一個我們才掌握資訊第二個不要被各個擊破甚至有一些地方我們發現陳木曉是提醒的事情有些地方"},{"start":10571.437,"end":10593.694,"text":"甚至他們透過一些企業來繞過我們政府的部門這個就是我們也要跟產業界來溝通因為如果沒有政府做後盾或最後像這些不管是立法或相關的行政的配合這個是我們總和外交的一部分"},{"start":10596.309,"end":10619.64,"text":"我不要指特定國家我們慢慢要把這一個經濟外交的機制檢討除了在行政面城市跨部會的小組之外我們外交部我們會跟各部會來協作通報制度的建立之外未來的對外的涉外事務比如說我們有外管也有很多的部會有派人我們也需要做一個總和團"},{"start":10620.12,"end":10620.4,"text":"外交部長"},{"start":10637.952,"end":10666.463,"text":"他的談判或者是溝通協調甚至各種利益上面的討論都可以強化我們的這個掌控的狀況我這部分還是要跟部長說最後一個我想問部長部長你知道其實我們有這個所謂南向政策裡面其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少但是其實在印度的內部其實台灣還有一群我覺得蠻重要的盟友他們和台灣一樣其實信奉自由民主的價值也很了解印度"},{"start":10668.324,"end":10686.865,"text":"有助於增進台灣跟印度的關係,部長你知道這群盟友會是誰?就是包括藏人,我想他們是很重要的。部長,我們在跟這個印度的交流裡面,其實我自己認為有一個非常非常重要的一群,就是達艾拉馬帶領這個流亡藏人的社群。"},{"start":10689.227,"end":10713.284,"text":"這個社群他們在某個部分他們跟中國之間他們在在我不能講對抗但是他們也是在面對中國的各種的入侵跟侵害這部分其實跟台灣的利益是一樣的都在抵禦中國的侵擾那在他們一樣在扎根在印度扎根了65年所以他們對印度非常的熟悉包括印度的制度、語言、文化他們非常非常熟悉我只是想問部長部長你覺得"},{"start":10715.265,"end":10744.115,"text":"可不可以將這群印度的流氓藏人的社群納入臺灣的南向政策裡面的重要的夥伴你覺得我同意委員應該是要把他納入那尤其是在台印關係當中這個藏人他們可以作為一個很好的橋樑那隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加我們也很需要人才部長如果你在這邊說這些藏人的社群其實是臺灣在台印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴的話"},{"start":10744.835,"end":10765.545,"text":"那我覺得我們就要面對一件事情其實坦白說現在台灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人其實相對不友善的地方他們可能想要來台灣交流或者來台灣求學來台灣學中文目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙"},{"start":10767.352,"end":10786.048,"text":"我的意思是很簡單因為我們過去面對這些藏人社群我們都把他們當作你們就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人我們之前一直會這樣認定但如果今天如部長說的我們把它視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話"},{"start":10786.949,"end":10809.014,"text":"那可能就可以有一些特別的政策不只是把他們視為無國籍的人的這樣子對待的可能性了部長你覺得我們有沒有可能在這個方向來朝向真的把他們當作是臺灣在台印關係裡面甚至是南向政策裡面的重要夥伴"},{"start":10814.981,"end":10828.196,"text":"政策方向上我是支持委員剛剛的主張那在具體做法我就請我們包括外交部跟跨部會我們來進行一些檢討那最近也因為我去政策的定位"},{"start":10829.498,"end":10830.279,"text":"法令檢討及修改"},{"start":10846.019,"end":10849.563,"text":"市長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的,你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴,不是只是一般的無國籍的人"},{"start":10864.741,"end":10891.621,"text":"這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情在這個認定跟認知上面我們才有可以再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間所以我非常非常支持剛剛部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴那我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部甚至這個來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們權益上面可以做更多真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴部長應該同意吧"},{"start":10892.381,"end":10892.581,"text":"謝謝紅山漢委員"},{"start":10922.657,"end":10922.677,"text":"楊瓊英議員"},{"start":10951.614,"end":10969.647,"text":"會長,我們首先來討論昨天川普當選了臺美關係會如何指標又是為何所以我們看到這個臺美關係的走向以往美方過去重申我們的是臺灣關係法、美中三公"},{"start":10971.047,"end":10989.441,"text":"以及美國對我們有六項保證為基本的一中政策的說法。首先請教部長,在他當選之後,就任之後,會不會有所改變?我們的看法在指標方面,以什麼為指標來看他的變動?請說明。"},{"start":10992.421,"end":11006.848,"text":"跟委員說明我想美台關係在過去制定台灣關係法之後也歷經很多次他們政黨輪替我們可以發現他的一致性跟延續性是在這個基礎上那當然行政立法兩個部門"},{"start":11008.409,"end":11031.62,"text":"我們就是怎麼樣來去鞏固甚至拓展美台的關係那至於說新的政府他的做法外界大概都有所報導就是更強調美國優先然後會用一些經濟工具做外交的手段然後在國際政治上就是對於"},{"start":11033.061,"end":11046.276,"text":"多邊主義可能比較保守會強調就是以美國為中心的雙邊這個主義那當然是不是能夠到有一些是單邊的主義這涉及到對於特定的議題我想川普總統他的"},{"start":11053.183,"end":11053.203,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":11073.773,"end":11086.264,"text":"並不是只有抗中因為美台關係其實互相之間要去協調我想在這個方面我們的外交空間可以因應新的變局"},{"start":11090.168,"end":11107.17,"text":"還是我對美台關係的一個發展是建立在這樣一個一致性跟延續性的一個判斷上那我們要因應他新總統的這個領導作風跟他的政策的重點要做一些因應的調整"},{"start":11107.93,"end":11134.301,"text":"本席之所以給部長充分的時間來說明但是本席還是要提醒部長因為川普的外交政策就正如你剛才說的他是偏向在美國的孤立而且他是保護主義者非常強烈反中、自中的氛圍當然是一貫性但是我要提醒的是反中不代表他就是有台你可以"},{"start":11135.881,"end":11151.965,"text":"認同這句話嗎?對,這個不等同。不等同。好,我們理念一致的時候,我首先要請問你,川普在這個競選的時候拋出一個台灣保護會,他說軍費要增加到GBT的10%的這個說法,你認為呢?你認為呢?我想這個怎麼去解讀齁?是。"},{"start":11158.886,"end":11160.547,"text":"2025年明年的預算我們增加了7.7%"},{"start":11183.222,"end":11211.264,"text":"6千多億的國防預算在這個那佔我們的總比GBT的2.45%如果說陳如他說的要10%GDP的10%等於26兆的2.6兆那我方怎麼應對請教好也就是他希望我們再增加我們告訴他我們過去有增加未來也會再增加未來會增加對那至於說因為我們增加的這一個之後我們一定會增加"},{"start":11212.403,"end":11224.131,"text":"我想除了中共的這個中共的這個軍事威脅越來越大我們當然相對在國防的預算的支出也會增加嘛這是為了我們自己啊我們好好討論也就是說"},{"start":11227.873,"end":11254.614,"text":"川普上任之後他之前所說的發表的言論那我們很緊張如果說要達到GPT的10%等於2.6兆那絕對會排擠到我們的社福啊我們的經濟啊等等對不對你認同那所以你剛才的說法就是說川普上任之後那麼我們的國防預算應該會增加是不是如此我們就持續在增加所以會增加嘛是不是"},{"start":11255.414,"end":11272.855,"text":"明年的預算就增加後面的趨勢也是如此所以我要注意的就是說我們不要排擠到如果真的一直持續的增加當然這個是總統的職權那麼一直在增加的時候如果真的達到他的10%你認為會不會"},{"start":11275.031,"end":11285.341,"text":"委員這個是一個所謂的一個他的方向是希望增加不是說5%10%的問題其實川普的這一些包括他的副總統這個J.D."},{"start":11285.341,"end":11289.485,"text":"Vance還有包括他一些國安的幕僚他提出了10%我方會接受嗎"},{"start":11290.319,"end":11310.966,"text":"沒有,他不是正式的提出,那個是一個方向啦好,就這個方向我請部長你也相識的去看川普時代那麼我們台美關係我們會怎麼樣的走向當然你身為部長這個是非常重要的工作所以本期要請教那麼在昨天你們是不是外交部有政府跟總統"},{"start":11311.766,"end":11314.448,"text":"昨天有沒有討論?有,我們本來週三也都有一些固定的會議也有討論"},{"start":11328.66,"end":11328.8,"text":"請教部長"},{"start":11347.847,"end":11362.739,"text":"新美台的關係一方面我想他重視選舉期間的一些訴求投資美國昨天你有沒有告訴總統建議總統我們必須要關注我們有報告也有在書面的報告上面當然總統也對外有發表"},{"start":11368.445,"end":11374.292,"text":"對川普總統的恭賀以外對美台關係的一個方向的宣示"},{"start":11378.464,"end":11382.705,"text":"也有宣示,請教2016年12月2日到2017年1月20日,就是川普在競選上一任的時候,我們蔡英文總統跟他打了電話,通了電話這一次在外交部會不會安排,我們的賴總統也跟準總統通電話"},{"start":11402.779,"end":11404.92,"text":"我們目前並沒有這樣的安排接下來本席要請問的就是說深化雙邊的經濟貿易關係在我們的整個臺美21世紀的貿易倡議當中非常重要"},{"start":11419.424,"end":11445.877,"text":"這個參議當中總共有11項包括辯解法規、農業、反貪污等等11項那麼臺美在去年6月份的時候華虎簽署了首批的協定那麼有望在今年年底要生效,是不是啊?對,就是那個First Agreement今年底會生效那請問川普上台之後你們掌控的情質會不會有所影響?會不會?"},{"start":11447.29,"end":11453.072,"text":"第二階段因為已經談判到一個階段了後面的二三階段我們必須因應他的對貿易的主張"},{"start":11463.558,"end":11464.058,"text":"會不會影響到我們年底要生效?"},{"start":11481.995,"end":11498.557,"text":"年底的生效是已經確定的啦就是美方我想在拜登政府還任內嘛還沒有到新政府上任那就是這有分階段所以我們在第二階段"},{"start":11499.571,"end":11523.755,"text":"很多共識也已經有了但是能不能把它完成我們還要再跟新政府來談部長我想這個是你負責任的一個談法所以本席剛開始也希望我們好不容易在去年6月份所簽訂那今年年底呢一定務必要達陣成功因為接下來所面臨的挑戰跟現在的政府有很多的方向似乎有所不同"},{"start":11524.715,"end":11541.168,"text":"我們要鞏固一些美台關係在拜登總統任內已經有共識的項目那另外除了美台21世紀貿易商業就是避免雙重瞌睡那我們也期待說在美國大選完之後到這個交接期間他們國會也是會開議能夠把它順利的完成"},{"start":11545.051,"end":11570.383,"text":"所以我要給你一句話也就是說我希望的我們當然我們要鞏固我們的安全但是我們也不能讓人家予取予求作為一個交易的籌碼這個變化就請部長對 一定是我們以國家的安全跟這個人民的利益為依據啦這個有關於這個國防預算也必須除了我們盡我們該盡的這個"},{"start":11573.584,"end":11574.644,"text":"主席我最後邀請一下我們陸委會"},{"start":11597.876,"end":11615.275,"text":"我剛剛在經濟委員會特別提出川普時代老一齡出口的國家是壓力很大因為他是高關稅這樣的一個情況之下對台目前宣示60%對其他的國家10到20%"},{"start":11616.616,"end":11643.619,"text":"那我請教我們我國目前的狀態我們所會受影響的那麼我們的國部長直接回答本席說臺商影響最大臺商影響最大你認為國部長回答的這一句話高關稅對大陸川普政府他目前規劃的是60%你認為國部長說的對臺商的影響最大這一句話你的解讀呢"},{"start":11645.164,"end":11668.264,"text":"我沒有仔細看過部長的講話但是如果假設美國真的對大陸的商品提高到60%的話因為我們台灣有很多高科技廠商是在大陸生產然後出口到美國的所以確實會對台灣的在大陸投資的這些廠商會有影響"},{"start":11669.586,"end":11684.304,"text":"這也會影響到說這些廠商會不會繼續留在大陸繼續生產的問題所以他可能會留到印度、越南或是回到台灣都有可能不瞭解狀態是如何但是身為陸委會"},{"start":11685.465,"end":11708.651,"text":"請你也務必看這個面向,怎麼樣協助我們的台商,因為台商在外也非常的辛苦,我們要怎麼樣協助他。因為郭部長有講了一句話,我再請外交部長回答我一句話。因為郭部長說什麼呢?說因應這個方向,有一個他的方法,就是境外。"},{"start":11709.761,"end":11711.642,"text":"有關委員這個政策我們現在布局基本上就是"},{"start":11730.768,"end":11747.673,"text":"我們怎麼樣去把我們的領先優勢確保然後去佈局全球所以半導體來講我們現在也有一個晶片戰略就技術深耕台灣產線佈局全球我們不是被迫什麼China plus one台灣 plus one我們要台灣 plus n你們回答本席的議題"},{"start":11748.513,"end":11748.993,"text":"有請一個例子跟委員分享"},{"start":11766.479,"end":11786.812,"text":"譬如說台建投資德國那個供應鏈我們就希望說能夠這歐洲國家能夠建立更韌性我們台灣政府也扮演一個角色類似這個例子日本也是那美國也同樣大概以這樣的方式我們不要把這個供應鏈的重組當威脅要當作一個我們佈局全球的職位"},{"start":11787.893,"end":11788.213,"text":"先休息五分鐘"},{"start":12152.079,"end":12153.82,"text":"賴清的政府對於川普重返白宮應該是有評估過"},{"start":12182.51,"end":12203.787,"text":"抱歉,有什麼?有沒有評估過?有!有評估過嗎?因為任何的可能性不管是賀錦麗當選或是川普重返白宮都有評估過所以我想應該不至於說會有發生像上一次押寶明顯而導致於要修復關係的一個狀況但是現在很多委員大家都關心嘛,現在"},{"start":12204.952,"end":12226.588,"text":"川普在上任之後他的所作所為跟四年前他第一任的時候可能也會有點不同因為畢竟世界環境也都在變但有些核心價值我想我們還是要堅守啊因為川普他之前當總統候選人選舉的期間啊其實不只一次公開發言攻擊我們台灣的奧運選手講說變性的疑雲啊"},{"start":12230.302,"end":12243.621,"text":"那過去他甚至在選舉前最後一天在賓州搖擺州的這個投票招式的時候他又再一次暗示講到就是說奧運的這個資格可能是有問題部長有沒有看到這樣的一個訊息"},{"start":12245.256,"end":12271.826,"text":"奧運是全世界公認這是一個最高的一個運動競技的我們的林玉婷選手她拿到金牌奧運的資格也審查沒有問題了她是貨真價實的金牌選手嘛對不對那但是川普他在過去選舉的時候或甚至說選前造勢的時候都一而再再而三去提到這件事情我們沒有看到我們外交部有任何反應"},{"start":12273.922,"end":12290.356,"text":"我們就像我剛剛講的當然我們就是相信奧運的一個就是競賽的規則所得到的機會即便他是現在自由世界最高領導人即便他現在當選了但是他能夠用這樣似是而非的言論去攻擊我們的選手嗎"},{"start":12291.656,"end":12312.89,"text":"因為他沒有指名,但是因為他講的當然先前有一些脈絡,所以像路宏委員講的,我們就是捍衛我們這個台灣的奧運的這個選手,他們得到的獎牌啊。是,部長,所以捍衛我們的選手,如果說任何國家任何人講出是適合非言論攻擊我們的選手,我們都應該要跳出來?"},{"start":12314.167,"end":12326.424,"text":"澄清、主張、表達我們的立場,是吧?對,就像委員現在問我,我就是這樣表達。是,但是那川普現在講這樣的一個部分,我們怎麼沒有看我們的駐美代表駐美辦事處有任何的一個回應?"},{"start":12327.827,"end":12330.31,"text":"我們要像經濟部長之前被問到的時候一樣經濟部長在被選友講是說台灣要付費經濟部長回應是說川普又沒有直接來問我"},{"start":12344.403,"end":12363.505,"text":"所以我不用回答他?可是他現在就是公開的在媒體上造勢是!是!那有任何人如果說他這樣子持續的攻擊我們難道不用去嚴正的立場表達嗎?所以川普沒有直接問你你就不用回應川普的話?"},{"start":12364.059,"end":12372.004,"text":"我要選舉期間我每一件事情我都要去回應嗎?他指到我們啊?重點是他指到我們?部長,你要這樣子,這樣你不覺得這樣子是唾棉自乾嗎?"},{"start":12379.367,"end":12403.72,"text":"我們的選手不管台灣的選手、新北的選手都好他就是貨真價實的奧運金牌選手為什麼會持續我們外交部過去到現在沒有任何溝通的部分嗎我們有沒有試著跟共和黨溝通試著跟川普陣營溝通就是說你影射的其實真的不是事實奧運也已經證明了"},{"start":12404.68,"end":12426.626,"text":"能不能不要再拿這樣的例子了?你要怎麼樣競選,那是你的競選的方式,我們尊重。因為我們本來也沒有辦法守護他們的選情啊。沒有沒有,他如果講不對的事情,我們也不能夠說就什麼尊重啊。我是說如果委員問我們的表態,是跟你一樣的啊。為什麼我們沒有任何的溝通管道去捍衛我們的主張呢?我們過去到現在有沒有試著跟共和黨溝通過?有沒有試著跟川普陣營溝通過?"},{"start":12429.69,"end":12451.903,"text":"沒有這個事情溝通但是我們的態度很一致很清楚這就是部長證實了就是部長證實了今天這個人如果說他是美國老大哥當選人他講什麼東西似是而非即便是侮辱到我們的選手了即便是影射到我們的選手了我們沒有溝通"},{"start":12453.423,"end":12465.407,"text":"因為那個發言的脈絡請委員再去了解因為他沒有指明啦但是我也不是說沒有指明我們就不能夠表示我們的態度像委員問我我就是表示啊跟你一樣的態度啊部長我們今天站在同一個立場今天是我們任何一個選手選手沒有黨派"},{"start":12474.468,"end":12474.528,"text":"立陶宛"},{"start":12498.967,"end":12517.56,"text":"這個前兩天委員有質詢又請教到你你也說要極力的一個爭取因為說立陶宛現在可能會助立陶宛台灣代表處的這個名稱說要改變這是他們可能現在的新任的總統他們新任的總理來去做表示的那我們現在溝通的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":12521.636,"end":12524.337,"text":"有多少信心認為我們不會被改名?還是說有可能會被改名?"},{"start":12551.943,"end":12575.199,"text":"任何的改變都需要經過雙方的討論想要請教你說你們跟對方溝通現在他們的態度非常強硬他12月27號大選完還在籌組政府現在現在政府是看守政府所以其實還沒有跟新的政府溝通還沒有重新新的政府那你這樣子你在那邊一直我們住處都有跟他們這個跨黨的都有溝通那什麼時候會溝通"},{"start":12580.643,"end":12583.092,"text":"因為看起來這件事情是他們想要做是"},{"start":12585.629,"end":12609.657,"text":"所以什麼時候我們會溝通那你有多少把握認為是說這個名字不會被改掉還是說其實看起來新任政府上任了擋不住了因為我們可能跟過去的政府關係好一點所以現在新任政府上任之後我們沒有辦法沒有把握會改變各位我來報告齁他現在政府還在籌組中他這個聯合政府會找哪一個政黨來加入齁也要等到確定是嗎部長這個是這個是國安不能講還是說你現在還沒有掌握"},{"start":12614.599,"end":12615.519,"text":"但是重點是說到底我們有多少把握"},{"start":12643.57,"end":12667.683,"text":"總統大委我都強調一件事情對外交來講我多一分的寬容因為所有的第一線的外交人員在外面就是代表中華民國我們都是中華民國一份子沒有黨派之分但是重點是我們現在面臨到什麼樣的情況不要報喜不報憂不要每一次狀況發生了然後我們對國內都講說啊大內宣沒事沒事好像所有"},{"start":12668.803,"end":12693.025,"text":"全世界大家現在都很支持台灣獨立實際上沒有啊你們只是在偷渡你們政治意識形態啊那現在到底國際社會的現實怎麼樣你總是要讓我們國內大家了解啊所以這才是我現在問是說你到底有多少把握還是三個月後、兩個月後等他們先任政府上任立陶宛這邊第一個當初2021年民進黨政府大內宣拍拍手"},{"start":12693.786,"end":12719.885,"text":"祝台灣代表處祝立陶宛台灣代表處突然間換一個招牌又回來了因為這是台立雙方透過政府那麼所達成的共識才有設處的名稱所以你現在沒有把握維持不變我們當然是要維持不變那有多少把握我們相信就是說透過溝通雙邊我們希望能夠不受任何的影響"},{"start":12724.476,"end":12724.636,"text":"加油!"},{"start":12747.765,"end":12763.391,"text":"中華民國靠各位外交同仁但是絕對不是拿外交出口轉內銷我們不要自我麻痹政治意識形態真的可以放一邊謝謝謝謝你的支持謝謝洪孟楷委員部長請回接下來我們請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":12782.055,"end":12785.878,"text":"謝謝主席各位先進有請林部長請林部長部長你好委員好順著剛才紅委員的一個題目這個川普今天選舉過程當中今年初到"},{"start":12811.283,"end":12837.169,"text":"這個這次的最近的選舉講了兩次喔說台灣偷了這個美國的晶片產業然後最近又講他在campaign這個在搖擺中的時候又講了說我們又偷走了他們的獎牌就變性能的問題言下之意啊他就變台灣是小偷小偷國家偷晶片"},{"start":12838.319,"end":12839,"text":"臺灣是小偷,偷世界的獎牌"},{"start":12856.733,"end":12861.976,"text":"結果我們都沒有去澄清你沒有去什麼的阿你跟我說沒人聽到阿我們沒辦法我們是小國沒人聽到阿阿他那裡大國聽到的人這麼多阿美國人就這樣聽進去了阿喔台灣是小偷這件事外交部責任非常重大勒你都這樣嚇死這樣剛才美國嚇死不如我嚇一下或者是請問你要不要去登個廣告"},{"start":12882.79,"end":12884.411,"text":"我跟委員報告美國各大媒體都不同意川普總統的講法很多都講出我們的主張包括晶片的事情包括奧運獎牌的事情"},{"start":12904.181,"end":12922.176,"text":"阿你要發聲阿 最少你要出個聲音阿 登個廣告也好阿 在華盛頓Post在什麼地方也登個廣告 要三禮拜登個廣告澄清一下說 我們不是小偷阿 我們不是你的朋友阿我想美國人沒有說就接受這種說法阿你又不是美國人 你是台灣阿"},{"start":12924.898,"end":12934.167,"text":"晶片業者還有這些美國的媒體都已經講得很清楚我們這個供應鏈裡面是分工的關係阿你不要跟他們澄清這東西根深蒂固人家美國人就收進去阿我們多少的美國的親友都說你台灣小偷勒偷我們的晶片業勒偷國際的獎牌勒"},{"start":12949.281,"end":12954.903,"text":"沒有啦!我們幫他賺錢啦!我們賺一塊他賺三塊啊!我們這個就算台積電也是外資占多數啊!這股啊!有啦!我有機會我都在講他們來的訪問團啊!或我們的住處都有在講!主動登個廣告可以登廣告的什麼?我們講齁!媒體就會有在報導我們的講法了啊!你要正式的announce啊!"},{"start":12977.779,"end":12997.166,"text":"對不對?你用minister of foreign affairs啊!你!在講人家!對不對?請問你啦!你現在!還是以前問的問題?台下黨選的你有沒有安排賴清德總統?過去美國有沒有?去我們的中南美的邦交國啊!過去美國!"},{"start":12998.066,"end":13002.751,"text":"我想這個總統出訪會由總統府阿他們如果有確定的這個時間、地點跟對象會對外宣布我們當然都會做好幕僚作業阿"},{"start":13018.163,"end":13026.629,"text":"時機成熟的就跟委員報告這個由總統府同意來發言因為那種操作可能會引起一些誤會所以我要澄清就這樣因為沒有的事沒有在運作結果有人這樣報導我們只好去把它澄清"},{"start":13045.06,"end":13072.297,"text":"我正在猜喔是不是我們這個這個上一次操作成功啊這一次來講的話大概是怎樣人家不願意喔不不這樣子喔這個東西所以快點澄清人家都還沒講要澄清很奇怪的東西現在好吧這個我我回到另外今天想問的問題了是前幾天總質詢問你喔吼你30秒說沒有這個是"},{"start":13075.598,"end":13103.637,"text":"我叫拉北市長來講來來來,你們就已經請問你,來來來請問你,你不懂得怎麼說,市長說市長我們有沒有1.3億去投入Orange Hill聖文森的Orange Hill,有沒有那個是一個蔬菜這個種苗的研發計畫但是跟大麻一點關係都沒有來來來,不要緊張喔所以是有這個事,不是沒有,只是部長你一定要承認"},{"start":13105.294,"end":13129.142,"text":"我們有投入這個錢那個計畫是公開資訊在我們國外基金的網頁上都查得到我跟你講所以部長你別講太快來來來我跟委員報告我有到那個Orange Hill我覺得他那個包括鳳梨還有這個馬鈴薯還有相關的這個育苗做得很成功但是沒有大麻啦而且不要急來2023年的Nature"},{"start":13135.359,"end":13135.979,"text":"這是一個很大的地點耶"},{"start":13158.375,"end":13184.05,"text":"包括他們那個副總理啊來台灣的我這次還見到他那是一個地名啦很大的啦我還問他說為什麼叫Orange Hill沒有採Orange他說對齁我們這裡沒有橘子欸我們這裡是其他的水果我真的有問啦你說這不是笑話啦不是笑話的笑話Orange Hill是當地附近最大的大麻的研發產生中心啦你知道嗎這是個地名啦"},{"start":13185.382,"end":13185.822,"text":"2019 年聖文森的官方獎"},{"start":13216.143,"end":13218.484,"text":"這是我們外交部,下面這個不是喔"},{"start":13233.049,"end":13235.311,"text":"請問你聖文森的人口多少?11萬人口11萬人口,你跟我說個白天說個白天好像多大的國家11萬人口請問他的土地多大?"},{"start":13262.911,"end":13264.412,"text":"委員提醒我們一定會嚴加注意"},{"start":13292.142,"end":13295.022,"text":"因為我一直強烈主張大麻不可以合法化"},{"start":13321.701,"end":13343.534,"text":"然後你這樣的一個舉動讓外界錯覺民進黨新任的賴金的政府要把它合法化因為你們去支持他嘛經過委員的質詢我們說明之後就有澄清的機會還要是感謝不然人家可能會誤會因為他很小你說土地是我們的百分之一是吧"},{"start":13344.318,"end":13346.939,"text":"就是現在交易委員會就在討論這個"},{"start":13371.764,"end":13398.159,"text":"我們怎麼樣防止青少年服用大碼等等的2018年的預算報告你看娛樂用大碼出口到鄰國我都查認清楚我就是不斷的講就是不斷要提醒你不要助紂為虐不要為了一點點的那個外交的利益傷害了中華民國在世界上的一個名譽的時候我們在助長大碼不好"},{"start":13398.769,"end":13399.469,"text":"接下來我們請李坤城委員上台質詢"},{"start":13435.947,"end":13436.247,"text":"謝謝處席,我們請林部長"},{"start":13448.909,"end":13476.526,"text":"部長好部長辛苦了這個川普當選這個第47任的這個美國的總統那昨天的這個美國的股市是大漲1500點左右啦那我上來之前我看一下今天的這個台灣股市也漲了200多點那台積電也有漲那因為經濟能夠反映一些政治經濟的情況嘛股市那想請問一下這個部長怎麼看這個美股漲台股也漲"},{"start":13478.561,"end":13500.074,"text":"我覺得政治如果穩定的時候其實對投資者都是一個好的消息那因為美國的大選期間大家真的也都很緊張那也已經定了那定了其實就是對企業界來講他就知道怎麼去因應那因為這一次川普的這個勝選也算是比外界尤其是民調原來預測的"},{"start":13502.355,"end":13518.776,"text":"更多的票跟席次所以在這種情況之下賀錦麗陣營也表達拜選之外也會協助交接所以我覺得這個不確定性的因素就沒了這也是我想對投資者很重要的一個因素"},{"start":13519.116,"end":13533.648,"text":"那尤其像台積電也對那因為大家在外界的質疑說如果這個政府當選之後對於台積電可能會有一些關稅上面的一些影響那我看今天台積電也長嘛那表示說我們台灣投資者對於台積電是相當有信心的"},{"start":13534.104,"end":13538.345,"text":"請教一下部長賴總統在昨天下午有召開一個國安高層會議部長也有參加我想請教一下部長"},{"start":13562.873,"end":13586.873,"text":"那有沒有討論到就是說在川普在明年1月就職之前政權交接的過渡時期那中國的政治意圖跟軍事動態可能對台灣會有什麼樣的影響我們外交部的報告裡面確實有提到因為要嚴防中共在這個美國政府交接期有一些對台灣的一些比較就是說一些"},{"start":13589.076,"end":13596.609,"text":"的作為因為這個期間有可能我們必須做好因應"},{"start":13598.055,"end":13620.224,"text":"因為政府交接嘛那原政府進入看守期而新政府還沒有上任那也許一種可能的情境不是說一定就這樣就是中共對台的這個一些軍演那有可能就是會有一些挑釁來測試就是未來的美國這個川普政府"},{"start":13621.284,"end":13621.324,"text":"國安高層會議"},{"start":13645.172,"end":13646.133,"text":"外交部部長、大陸委員會報告"},{"start":13669.43,"end":13675.772,"text":"今天有一個蓬勃的新聞社有一個消息不是消息證實為假他說川普贏了大選之後賴清德考慮要試圖致電給川普目前不知道川普是否會接電話總統府已經有駁斥了"},{"start":13685.635,"end":13707.544,"text":"那部長也說這個有跟川普的外交幕僚有聯繫的管道但是沒有任何有電話的這個討論那我在想就是說中國接下來也會再繼續再來操作這個賴政府跟川普政府沒有聯絡管道不知道怎麼聯絡這些假訊息那請問一下外交部怎麼去因應還有外交部目前跟川普的團隊的聯繫管道如何"},{"start":13708.956,"end":13733.162,"text":"就有關於有一個媒體的報導說好像我們要去聯繫去打電話這個也沒有經過這個查實就是說也讓府方有一些回應所以沒有平衡報導所以經過溝通之後他們也做了一些修正因為我們不希望說把這個操作成一種好像這個要打電話不打電話的問題"},{"start":13734.762,"end":13758.443,"text":"或是說想打電話不知道找誰打電話或是說他想要企圖去營造說我們好像跟川普團隊沒有一個聯繫的管道所以我舉個例子就像是前他們的國安顧問奧布蘭他就推了我們賴總統在X上面的這個恭賀文這個也是一個很好的顯示我覺得"},{"start":13759.704,"end":13787.209,"text":"國人要就是在這個關天天我們駐美的代表處也是第一時間就有轉達總統的賀函那所以我們現在跟川普的團隊有外交上面有聯繫過應該說他的團隊還在行程中我們對於他的這個政府的組成可能會入閣的會擔任各個職務我們是有一些幕僚的就是說分析跟研判"},{"start":13788.309,"end":13805.263,"text":"但這也要隨著他的這個組織政府的程序因為他從1月20號之前我們會針對這個部分因為其實人事的布局也會影響未來政策的輕重環境"},{"start":13806.184,"end":13832.832,"text":"那剛剛部長有提到這一個歐布萊恩這個美國的這個前國家安全顧問他因為總統有先貼了一個文然後他有這個轉貼然後也貼個這個賴清德總統然後呢這個部長怎麼看就是說當然這個賴總統他有去恭賀然後這一個因為歐布萊恩對於這個川普的團隊也相當的重要啦那部長怎麼看這個轉貼他的政治意涵"},{"start":13834.176,"end":13860.72,"text":"這個是當然就是很友善的一個行動那也不是說只有這個啦我們駐美代表處都就是第一時間都有跟相關的可能現在或未來會參與政府政策的這些人士有第一時間去聯繫或恭賀或表達對於一些我們未來合作的期待"},{"start":13861.34,"end":13877.907,"text":"所以這只是其一而已啊,像這樣的情況其實是還蠻普遍的那所以我們在第一時間我們駐美代表處有向這個川普團隊來恭喜對,就是有總統巨寒的賀文那對於這個賀錦麗呢?"},{"start":13882.29,"end":13905.098,"text":"總統自己在臉書上的貼文有表達感謝拜登總統和賀錦麗副總統這次的總統候選人他們對台灣的支持那美台關係的一個貢獻那這個部分就是都有就如您看到的在新聞稿上也有在貼文也有好 謝謝"},{"start":13909.253,"end":13915.938,"text":"謝謝李昆城委員部長請回接下來我們請劉許廷委員上台質詢謝謝主席林部長有請請林部長"},{"start":13934.426,"end":13952.48,"text":"部長午安,我們就話不多說直接進入主題,川普當選,在2016年當選的時候有川普跟蔡英文前總統的通話,當初在被解讀成為巨大的外交突破,那麼川普會跟賴總統通話嗎?"},{"start":13955.964,"end":13956.645,"text":"如果沒有通話,算不算外交倒退?"},{"start":13970.643,"end":13970.783,"text":"他的特質喔"},{"start":13997.065,"end":14019.927,"text":"當然有一些人是說他有這個所謂交易式的領導風格啦交易式的領導風格那他喜歡贏啦想要贏所以呢就是說我想在我們過去四年他執政的時候我們相處的所以說是台美關係啊奠定現在的基礎啦這個我倒是就是在我的報告裡面有提到其實你的報告我等一下再跟你算清楚來"},{"start":14020.828,"end":14039.205,"text":"普遍上不管是國際關係的學者專家也好或者是長期研究國際關係的資深記者跟評論員共同對川普的憂慮也好或者是客觀的分析也好叫做這個人有高度的unpredictable叫做不可預測性部長這個你總知道吧看你怎麼看還是你反對這樣子你贊不贊成這樣的說法"},{"start":14043.865,"end":14045.787,"text":"他有高度的不可預測性,川普。"},{"start":14064.747,"end":14087.282,"text":"就是因為大家都知道他具有高度的不可預測性所以本席不會認為他當初打電話給蔡英文前總統叫做什麼外交突破如果他這一屆沒有跟賴清德總統通話我也不會認為是外交倒退你要處變不驚的原因就是因為你要了解他本身具有高度的不可預測性今天我看你外交部的報告通篇在維穩沒事沒事一切都會照常舉行一切都會這個"},{"start":14089.043,"end":14089.303,"text":"堅若磐石"},{"start":14114.751,"end":14144.151,"text":"對那我就舉具體的例子來問吳俄戰爭對不對拜登是不是帶領的民主黨政府帶領的美國領導的這個民主集團他們對俄羅斯啊這對烏克蘭有沒有軍援有對不對賣武器等等提供各式各樣的協助有沒有有吧有有對不對他們有沒有聯合世界各個民主國家的集團跟聯盟制裁俄羅斯有有對不對好他們有沒有積極的在阻止威權集團的擴張在拜登政府執政的時代跟領導的時代有沒有"},{"start":14145.356,"end":14167.405,"text":"有有對不對川普會不會他也會啊他也會啊因為因為川普是把中國界定為戰略的挑戰者是說風不一樣啊我在跟你講俄羅斯你跟我講中國幹嘛俄羅斯也是一樣啊部長我不知道你有沒有注意到啊這哲倫司機昨天在推特上面發了一篇恭賀川普當選的文你知道下面留言長什麼樣子嗎"},{"start":14169.383,"end":14187.371,"text":"我沒有去看他留言我有看到媒體報導川粉大幅洗版大家在下面寫說你趕快投降喔你早就應該跟普丁談判啦你就不要負隅頑抗啦美國人不會再給你錢啦都是川普的支持者那請問川普上台跟拜登會一樣嗎?部長"},{"start":14189.377,"end":14191.821,"text":"那你為什麼之前答詢的時候都講說這些路線會一樣?"},{"start":14202.512,"end":14226.713,"text":"有在不同的層次啦他的作風不太一樣不代表說他其實他對於這個今天去講到包括說這個所謂的中或二齁其實他有他一套那一套跟這個現在的拜登總統不一樣但是不代表他維護美國國家利益以及希望說去二制啊威權擴張他是有不一樣的"},{"start":14227.113,"end":14244.544,"text":"他會維護美國的國家利益這個大家都很清楚這個是大概你剛剛講的有限的可預測性裡面大概唯一大家可以公認這可預測的就是他一定會以美國的利益為優先但這件事情回到台灣外交發展的角度來講其實拜登也是以美國利益為優先的狀況不太一樣是對於國際局勢發展的影響應該是你外交部"},{"start":14248.406,"end":14261.869,"text":"對未來的變局啊你應該做充分的準備但我在這報告裡面我通篇沒有看到針對川普不可預測性這件事情你台灣有任何的因應措施你甚至完全沒有提到這件事我覺得我們應該要沉著啊然後因應這個情勢我們做好準備不是一次就把所有的這個我們的做法都拋出來嗎因為這還在發展中他還要組織政府還要提出很多政策"},{"start":14277.593,"end":14300.773,"text":"剛剛在答詢的過程中其實已經非常清楚我們從實際上答詢的過程跟我舉出的例證裡面其實就驗證了川普本身有高度的不確定性我不希望看到我們外交部提出來的報告明明知道它是個不確定性有不可預測性的風險但在這裡面只字未提通篇維穩不要用中央廚房式的固定答案來面對外交的嚴肅問題這是我今天要給外交部的嚴肅提醒"},{"start":14301.454,"end":14317.014,"text":"我跟委員分享,國際政治的結構面也不是個人風格,它有一些特色跟談判的技巧,但不代表它的一些結構性的,就是說對於現在美國外交政策會做改變,以及對台灣的政策會有一些不一樣。"},{"start":14317.435,"end":14344.689,"text":"你剛剛講 我剛剛講一個政策你剛剛講不會改變我舉的烏鵝戰爭我認為還是不同層次你沒有辦法回答我認為沒有改變但個人的領導風格有一些不一樣大部分它的重點當然會放在經貿但我們今天談的是國防外交我們在這委員會所以我們今天沒有多談但是它有可能會改變是一個大家都公認的事實我跟委員分享齁比如說你先聽我講完嘛面對這樣子的變局不管是外交部也好或者是陸委會也好你的工作負擔都會增加因為局面複雜"},{"start":14345.729,"end":14361.402,"text":"我要你在面對這樣問題的呈現如實的跟人民報告這樣的挑戰而不是明明有可能有變數你要蒙著眼睛講說一切都如常態度是不正確的也要背離外交專業"},{"start":14363.23,"end":14378.741,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說其實台美關係的突破其實這8年來大部分都是在那個川普總統的那個前4年包括對台的很多的架構性的安排我就問你前4年有沒有烏俄戰爭是不是沒有可是你看比如說美中的貿易戰"},{"start":14380.742,"end":14408.179,"text":"到現在加強到不只是從華為這種乾淨5G到晶片這個去紅供應鏈我剛剛不是跟你講我們現在國防外交委員會嗎我如果今天要問貿易戰的我會下去經濟委員會問證啊對不對你今天也不是經濟部長我現在要你處理好處理好未來的變局我希望我們的政府就是要有這樣子的心理準備有可能你明明有但你不敢寫啊你不敢講啊不用敢講他有可預設性大家就面對這個問題就好了"},{"start":14410.56,"end":14410.84,"text":"謝謝劉許廷委員 部長請回"},{"start":14438.351,"end":14453.481,"text":"鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在接下來我們請羅志強委員上台質詢主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":14473.931,"end":14488.46,"text":" 2016年川普第一次當選美國總統,當時蔡英文總統在12月2日跟川普越洋通話。當時我記得民進黨非常雀躍,說這是外交史上重大的突破,沒錯吧?"},{"start":14492.713,"end":14509.664,"text":"當時 還說川菜夠辣 很多的義美之詞 不一一列舉 但是我剛剛聽到 剛剛我們劉許廷委員在質詢你的時候 問到會不會有川瀨熱線 你看起來好像沒什麼把握 對不對"},{"start":14512.455,"end":14533.117,"text":"這是要由川來決定的當然 照你的邏輯你也可以講川蔡的事但是我們不能要去促成因為媒體有報導了我就做點澄清避免誤會我跟你講我不認為你要避免誤會這事情我覺得當然你要先不能講我也可以體會因為外交有些工作要低調"},{"start":14534.378,"end":14558.201,"text":"但是你不能一副好像無所謂的樣子我覺得基本上我是鼓勵你能夠比照蔡英文的時候去促成穿賴熱線這個鼓勵應該不為過吧其實外交關係的呈現有各種方式我們不要去限制在而且尤其是媒體他那樣子設定的話容易變成引導到另外一個方向去你會有一個很嚴重的邏輯問題"},{"start":14559.622,"end":14571.569,"text":"如果照你這樣講的話穿菜熱線沒那麼重要的話當初穿菜熱線那民進黨不就犯了一個邏輯上很大的問題嗎你把他捧得好像一個外交重大突破我想抱歉我會站在前面的民進黨"},{"start":14572.665,"end":14589.494,"text":"所以這一點我是肯定來請那個蔡英文的啊所以對於蔡英文的肯定我希望你耐心的能夠做到起碼跟做的跟蔡英文一樣嘛那這樣的一個奇妙我覺得外交部不能夠當作說啊這個有這個有這個沒這個無所謂的感覺我覺得這個態度不是辦外交的態度啦"},{"start":14590.716,"end":14616.177,"text":"當時是第一次嘛就已經發生過了啊就沒有後來 對不對而且又是同一個川普 對不對好啦 我只是勉勵您而已啦因為你們有一個邏輯上的問題啦那第二個我覺得就是很嚴肅的問題啦我們川普在競選總統的時候有一個很重要的政見跟台灣有關就是要我們要交保護費吧你知道吧"},{"start":14618.916,"end":14647.336,"text":"他當選總統說要叫我們交保護費他那個詳細的文字不是說交保護費要GDP到百分之十啦那個時候有沒有講這個數字啊是在選舉的時候因為受訪的時候他又提到了因為那個數字也變來變去欸數字變來變去至少他今天提的這個數字嘛我看到就是新聞外媒報導說假的那我就要問你啦我是覺得他的那個那你一看到數據是多少"},{"start":14648.393,"end":14649.154,"text":"黑幫都要收保護費啊 台灣當然也要交保護費啊"},{"start":14654.175,"end":14681.815,"text":"不是嗎?因為他的副總統也有一些奏訪也有一些講話總統重要還是副總統重要啊?都很重要啊都很重要?總統說的為準嘛那我想請問你要不要我跟你講部長因為川普講話這個調調我也不會把這個是責任全部放你身上可是我覺得外交部總有個責任跟川普的新政府溝通一下你知道GDP百分之十四多少嗎?部長你知道嗎?那"},{"start":14685.277,"end":14704.978,"text":"23兆4兆的這個10%我告訴你在我們中央政府總共預算是84%我們基本上如果真正照川普講的這個編到GDP10%的話政府大概就可以幾乎沒有事可以做啦所以這個地方抱歉我覺得就是外交部的責任啦溝通是你外交部的責任沒錯吧"},{"start":14705.698,"end":14718.793,"text":"我們會去溝通,因為事實上我們是在增加嘛,從過去到未來我要的你只有這句話嘛,這個坦白講我直接講,你認為以這個數字來講是合理要求嗎?不要講說啦,就是說這個數字是可以會說話嘛以這個數字是不是合理要求嘛?"},{"start":14728.305,"end":14734.651,"text":"因為他講百分之幾其實這是一個期許但是百分之十要看你怎麼計算"},{"start":14735.919,"end":14737.379,"text":"那我跟委員講比如說灰色地帶的作戰海巡署"},{"start":14766.533,"end":14788.707,"text":"中共是海警船 它就是國防啊 那我們海巡署的預算也是國防啊部長我跟你講 你就算把這都算進去 你要到10% 你天差地遠我這樣說不過分吧 你把海巡署全部都算進去你把國安會什麼什麼全部都算進去 我告訴你也一樣天差地遠把你外交部算進去都天差地遠 你相不相信"},{"start":14789.653,"end":14810.211,"text":"我跟委員報告,他的副總統最重要的,他們的幕僚也談過是5,所以這個數字變來變去所以你接受5%沒有啦,我意思是說5也好10也好,這就是要增加,要展現我們自我防衛的決心,然後跟國防的能力基本上,因為我也在政府工作過"},{"start":14811.343,"end":14826.371,"text":"臺北關係我當然知道重要啊經營也困難所以你也發現我質詢你有沒有很為難你對不對可是我要講啊過去其實我們有跟美國有一些意見不合的時候至少我在政府服務的時候不要說太平島美國的意見跟我們中華民國立場就有點不一樣對不對沒錯吧"},{"start":14830.035,"end":14857.222,"text":"跟馬政府之後馬政府時候不一樣當時至少政府就用很勇敢的講出來說抱歉我跟你不一樣但是並不會今天你要站在一個尊嚴的基礎上跟隨美國溝通我同意當然嘛所以不合理的要講就像前面有最後講一點啦我覺得那個態度部長還是可以修正一下林玉婷的部分你不能跟洪某凱講說你問我我才講啊"},{"start":14858.291,"end":14860.932,"text":"沒有指名道姓又沒有指名道姓的回應不是嗎?就是要回應"},{"start":14877.762,"end":14878.142,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員 部長請回"},{"start":14906.701,"end":14908.983,"text":"接下來我們請葉元芝委員上台質詢有請林部長"},{"start":14928.841,"end":14946.905,"text":"今天國防外交委員會排這個主題當然就是因為因應美國選舉之後對台灣甚至兩岸的一個影響我們希望聽到是最真實的聲音而不是一直粉飾太平剛剛部長講說川普當選對台的關係完全不會有影響為什麼呢?因為你剛剛講說美國再次偉大不能沒有台灣這是你講的嘛"},{"start":14953.686,"end":14974.622,"text":"就是說美國如果沒有台灣的話就不能再次偉大那有了台灣才能再次偉大所以我們的角色非常重要但我不知道部長講這個話是根據什麼我這邊也有看了一些外媒報導紐約時報他就說川普重新回到白宮開啟了一個非常不確定的時代"},{"start":14975.642,"end":14996.222,"text":"就像他們都稍微有點懷疑說川普回去白宮之後對於整個國際局勢有什麼影響但是部長覺得沒什麼影響然後前兩天紐約時報沒有什麼影響你剛剛講了嘛不能沒有台灣嘛然後第二個紐約時報也提到了就是說其實中國大陸那邊非常歡迎川普重返"},{"start":14996.903,"end":15014.361,"text":"白宮兩個原因第一個原因就是因為拜登之前都是在中國大陸附近的鄰國去結盟所以讓他們感到很大的圍堵的壓力第二個原因是美威時報講的說川普對於保護台灣其實沒有太大的興趣而這一點中共是非常歡迎的"},{"start":15014.941,"end":15020.766,"text":"所以我覺得像這樣的局勢８文傑剛剛８沒有部長請教一下紐約時報這樣的分析您認同嗎?紐約時報這樣的分析您認同嗎?看你從哪個角度看啊對,您認同嗎?沒有其實從更高的層次來講就是說他抗中的力道更強啊"},{"start":15033.427,"end":15059.549,"text":"所以你只看對我們心安的部分我覺得這個大家都應該要料敵為重那如果說大家都粉飾太平的話那其實我們就通通大家都過太平日子也不需要來這邊報告如果講的都是不能夠這樣所以請問一下外交部針對我剛剛講的一些外媒的分析做了哪些因應的對策呢"},{"start":15061.446,"end":15087.374,"text":"對策喔?第一個就是說我們當然密切關注他的主張跟人事的佈局那因為他重視的議題啊我們的怎麼樣去跟他取得交集比如說他很重視投資美國創造就業然後他會用關稅的手段作為外交談判那這個時候他比較採取啊我是說針對可能會有風險的部分有做出哪些對策"},{"start":15089.404,"end":15090.905,"text":"邀請外交部長．對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展之影響"},{"start":15113.423,"end":15114.644,"text":"為什麼忽然間我們又不想要跟川普通電話?"},{"start":15136.365,"end":15141.612,"text":"起前的我不清楚,因為我那時候不是外交部部長,那為什麼現在就不想...我沒有去投入說要去怎麼樣去安排這些啊但是川普總統最後怎麼樣做,我們還是要...那並不是川普打電話給蔡總統好不好"},{"start":15154.688,"end":15154.808,"text":"委員講了"},{"start":15171.402,"end":15200.182,"text":"您說他不可預測性他上次用通電話這次會用什麼通電話是他要不要揭示一回事因為上次是部長部長部長所以你認為不要重複做同一件事是不是這是雙方面但是我目前做外交部長但是問題是之前是我們的外交部運作去跟川普通電話我現在問的是就外交部的立場這次為什麼沒有覺得要去運作這個事情為什麼你剛剛講說因為重複的事不想再做"},{"start":15200.822,"end":15212.399,"text":"蔡總統做的事情賴總統不需要再做你的意思是這樣嗎不是我覺得台美單親有很多要做的事而且可以做的好當然很多事情都要做那通電話這個事情為什麼不做嘛我的問題這麼簡單為什麼都沒辦法回答勒"},{"start":15217.797,"end":15219.057,"text":"最後問一下,川普明年就職的時候我們會派慶賀團過去嗎?"},{"start":15241.215,"end":15263.6,"text":"會,那大概成績是什麼?因為以前好像都是立法院長,好像有一次部長也有陪同嗎?對,2016年目前的規劃是怎樣?我們目前就是有幾種,就是說因為他現在才剛選完啦,那我們有在籌備所以我昨天也跟這個包括總統也報告過,我們現在這個未來會來籌備這個親和團"},{"start":15266.661,"end":15276.953,"text":"反正美國不管是川普當選或賀錦麗當選都會有一個美國總統當選嗎?你不需要等到誰當選之後才來籌備嗎?還是你會因人而異?你大概會派誰?是立法院長嗎?是會派立法院長代表區嗎?"},{"start":15283.598,"end":15299.283,"text":"因為之前我們有一次是由院長嘛所以這一次是韓國瑜院長會去嗎?我們還在籌備當中那有沒有可能?等確定再跟委員報告目前還沒有確定沒有確定因為是韓院長關係所以就比較難確定嘛不是不是跟院長是誰無關就對了無關無關好謝謝謝謝謝謝葉仁芝委員部長請回"},{"start":15311.687,"end":15321.681,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":15327.97,"end":15343.204,"text":"委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束散會"},{"start":15360.23,"end":15363.183,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":15383.338,"end":15384.679,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15405.79,"end":15406.41,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"16239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16239","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db53a1fc3a982fb6122042dc10dca82677083084566cc2bdb46d718dd7b0d5877c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、農業部部長、行政院經貿談判辦公室首長、外交部首長、大陸委員會首長就「我國當前經貿情勢分析及如何有效拓展國際經貿空間戰略規劃之相關政策作為，暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明、成員國立場分析與跨部會推動機制」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-07T08:31:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-07T11:58:00+08:00","duration":12418,"影片長度":"03:26:58","委員發言時間":"08:31:02 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宣讀完畢"},{"start":1919.167,"end":1945.004,"text":"今天的專案報有兩項第一項是針對我國當前經貿情勢的分析以及如何有效拓展國際經貿空間的戰略規劃以相關政策作為第二項是申請加入CPTPP的相關進度的說明及CPTPP成員國目前立場的分析以及行政院跨部會的推動機制這兩項做報告並備諮詢"},{"start":1949.382,"end":1962.809,"text":"在今天列席的部會很多在請部會在做報告之前我很快的介紹今天列席的各部會國外會的部會由高先貴副主委跟經發處跟人發處、重規處、產發處、設發處相關處長列席"},{"start":1972.395,"end":1998.942,"text":"國發基金是師傅執行秘書經濟部由郭部長親自出席謝謝郭部長以及國貿署、商發署、產業園區管理局局長出席農業部的部分由杜文貞次長列席謝謝還有國際事務司跟畜牧師、林保署、房檢署、農糧署、漁業署相關的同仁"},{"start":1999.861,"end":2018.345,"text":"另外,行政院經貿談判辦公室由副總談判代表嚴慧欣副總談判代表列席外交部由吳志忠次長列席謝謝還有國經司的副次長陸委會也有列席陸委會有李立貞副主委列席謝謝另外還有經濟處好那"},{"start":2024.476,"end":2037.304,"text":"現在先進行這個報告首先先請國發會由高先貴副主委來做報告請折要"},{"start":2040.152,"end":2054.031,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進、大家早安今天邀請委員會所提的議題進行報告本會請就業管的部分針對當前經濟情勢分析及政府政策作為說明無下"},{"start":2055.012,"end":2069.655,"text":"那其實全球經濟在今年兩年都渴望溫和的成長那國內景氣在AI的新興科技的帶動之下我們出口、生產跟投資都會相當的創旺根據國內外經濟機構的預測我國2024年經濟成長率都可以達到3.5%以上主力總數估計到3.9那國際貨幣基金IMF估計今年兩年全球經濟成長也可以達到3.2%"},{"start":2083.198,"end":2110.452,"text":"那主要是全球通貨已經明顯下降那商品貿易由衰退轉成擴張那各國的央行也陸續調整它的利益政策可是各國的經濟表現不一我想美國在薪資成長跟財富的支應之下它可以維持2.8的強勁成長但是歐元跟日本則相對疲弱那新興市場表現也相當分歧然後中國持續低迷印度則持續扮演新興市場成長動力的來源"},{"start":2112.633,"end":2135.006,"text":"雖然國際的景氣持續的溫和成長全球通膨也是呈現回落的局面但是國際風險因素淺存包括在中東地區以色列跟巴基斯坦跟伊朗的緊張情勢仍然衝擊原油市場二部戰爭也持續進行近期的北韓加入俄羅斯的陣營戰爭的格局持續的複雜化對於全球經濟穩定成長帶來更多的挑戰"},{"start":2140.269,"end":2159.702,"text":"此外,美中的角力也會加大地緣政治的風險各國基於經濟安全的目標分辨推動產業回流、有岸外包而且採取各種保護政策來提升本土產業的競爭力美國大選更是大家最重視的經濟風險我想現在選舉結果已經出來了勢必美國的經貿政策會轉向"},{"start":2165.526,"end":2188.161,"text":"的確一定會升高貿易保護的風險加劇全球經濟的零碎化天動全球供應鏈版圖的加速重整我想這不利於全球中長期的經濟成長的動人我想中國大陸內需不振、持續低迷加上美中的對峙加深以後我想中國大陸產能過剩透過貿易來對全球產生的連鎖衝擊應該會持續的擴大"},{"start":2193.704,"end":2212.35,"text":"那面對鬼訣多變的國際經貿情勢跟地緣政治風險我想政府必須因勢力導才可以續保我們的優勢那第一個我們想我們的做法就是協助企業可以立足臺灣佈局全球跟行銷全世界也就是說政府將積極的發展五大信賴產業推動臺灣成為人工智慧之島"},{"start":2215.331,"end":2219.915,"text":"藉由AI產業化、產業AA化帶動百工百業的創新發展強化國內產業競爭優勢政府除了持續希望引導境外資金及台商回流以外我們也會結合外交、產業經貿政策及科技創新等積極推動雙邊及多邊合作來擴展我國的國際經貿發展空間"},{"start":2241.913,"end":2263.553,"text":"第二、我們會鏈結理念相同的國家打造具有韌性的國際供應鏈我們會持續跟民主陣營深化合作包括拱部、友邦還有臺美、臺歐、臺日等關係而且擴大西南向國家的交流合作我們希望扮演民主供應鏈的關鍵角色在策略方面"},{"start":2267.336,"end":2272.859,"text":"經貿夥伴國與理念相同的國家依照產業優勢與供應鏈上下游的關係採取運用跨部會的政策工具創造與這些國家雙邊供應鏈的優勢與韌性包括半導體、5G、綠能等關鍵產業"},{"start":2286.787,"end":2300.242,"text":"的歐等國家會持續深化科技交流跟人才合作推動牆牆協作那中東歐等領域相同的國家我們也會依據產業工業上下游合作的利基關係達到互利共贏的縱向"},{"start":2301.724,"end":2320.41,"text":"最後我們再次重申臺灣是全球供應鏈很重要的一環然後本會將持續會跟外交部、經濟部、國科會還有經貿談判辦公室等密切合作然後積極的擴展臺灣的國際空間打造臺灣具有韌性的供應鏈來確保國家臺灣的經濟安全然後維持臺灣產業的競爭優勢以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝國安會高副主委報告"},{"start":2331.235,"end":2355.837,"text":"今天報告的單位很多我們下一個報告請經濟部郭部長報告主席、各位委員大家好今天承蒙貴委員會邀請就這個主題來做一個進行報告進行各位委員不吝示教"},{"start":2357.095,"end":2368.645,"text":"儘管全球經濟面臨俄烏戰爭、中東地緣政治緊張以及歐美對中國採取關稅措施等挑戰不過今年以來經濟情勢延續正向趨勢國際機構S&P Global預測"},{"start":2372.848,"end":2381.613,"text":"今年全球經濟成長率為2.7%OECD上修經濟成長預測到3.2%經貿付出動能非常平穩今年臺灣半導體以及資訊供應鏈的成熟發展科技大廠加大投資資金、技術研發持續帶動我供應鏈出口的動能主力總數最新預測經濟成長會高達3.9%"},{"start":2398.982,"end":2411.584,"text":"另一方面：美中衝突加劇以及各國保護意識抬頭使企業更重視經營環境穩定和安全國際新變局凸顯找尋可信賴夥伴的重要性"},{"start":2413.223,"end":2429.179,"text":"在拓展國際經貿空間經濟部運用既有的交流管道與歐美及新南向國家強化關鍵供應鏈連結產業交流合作更提出境外關內與境內關外創新經濟模式進一步突破經貿格局"},{"start":2430.66,"end":2457.692,"text":"那麼在境外關內的策略做法經濟部協助企業海外佈局延伸我國產業實力並融入全球供應鏈其中包括以大帶小的模式協助中小企業海外佈局以爭取租稅優惠營造有利於台商的經營環境在行商方面我們以共同品牌方式協助企業進行海外行銷例如今年8月在馬來西亞超市設置"},{"start":2459.053,"end":2479.468,"text":"臺灣CELEC專區展示來自臺灣超過150項特色產品臺灣CELEC接下來有規劃在美國、加拿大推廣以提高我國食品餐飲國際能見度以及市場接受推動加入CPTPP的作為以及進展"},{"start":2480.799,"end":2493.15,"text":"那麼報告如下推動的進度我國於114年9月22日正式遞出申請加入CPTPP相關入會推動方案即由行政院經貿談判辦公室統籌規劃經濟部及相關部會積極的配合辦理"},{"start":2499.153,"end":2518.062,"text":"CPTPP部長及執委會於去年聲明將以奧克蘭原則審視申請案有意加入CPTPP組織的經濟體必須符合協定高標準具備遵守貿易承諾的良好紀錄並由全體成員依據共識決作出決定"},{"start":2519.142,"end":2545.169,"text":"今年5月CPTPP部長聯合聲明再次強調將根據奧克蘭原則討論入會申請案為符合CPTPP高標準規範我政府已全面完成相關修法並且經過多方管道對外進行遊說目前CPTPP成員相當清楚我經貿體制現況及加入CPTPP的決心"},{"start":2547.006,"end":2572.459,"text":"對成員國的立場、臺灣高標準的經貿體制及遵守國際承諾或世界肯定CPTPP成員國明確表示歡迎符合高標準的經濟體加入我國將持續透過各種管道爭取CPTPP成員國的支持盼盡速成立我國入會工作小組經濟部的推案做法經濟部在國際多邊場域透過經貿對話管道"},{"start":2576.061,"end":2583.928,"text":"例如出席APEC、WTO等會議向CPTPP成員國說明我國之準備情況並爭取認同經濟部強化駐外單位專業能量"},{"start":2589.857,"end":2596.461,"text":"協助邀訪CPTPP成員國意見領袖、經貿團體來臺在國際雙邊場域深化CPTPP會員雙邊關係藉互訪機會加強雙方在經貿投資及產業技術合作、人員交流等實質往來"},{"start":2609.725,"end":2624.395,"text":"繼我國成為WTO成員之後加入CPTPP將是再一次提升我經貿體制與高標準國際規範接軌的契機目前我政府與主要的貿易夥伴之各項經貿談判包含美國臺美21世紀貿易倡議以及臺美經濟繁榮夥伴對話"},{"start":2631.581,"end":2659.779,"text":"EPPT對話平台與加拿大投資促進與保障協議以及英國的提升貿易夥伴關係協議等均展現我簽訂高水準經貿協定的能力行政、立法攜手共同努力匯聚我國推換能量在爭取各國認同的過程中立法部門的國際遊說也扮演了相當重要的角色"},{"start":2661.175,"end":2683.696,"text":"建於我國特殊環境．立法院組成推動臺灣加入CPTPP測定會協助推動我國入會藉國會外交之力當可開啟與部會會員國更多的互動經濟部也將持續深化與成員合作關係營造有利環境配合OTN共同推案"},{"start":2685.493,"end":2702.45,"text":"雖然現今國際經貿局勢複雜但臺灣產業有充分信心走向全球市場經濟部將持續努力與各國建立多項經貿對話機制深化交流合作並爭取加入區域經濟整合強化對外貿易關係"},{"start":2704.147,"end":2733.187,"text":"加入CPTPP是繼我國成為WTO成員國再一次提升我經貿體制與高標準國際規範接軌的契機經濟部履歷配合OTN統籌規劃深化與成員合作關係營造對我岸有利之環境同時協助國內產業調整及轉型促進產業持續發展以上報告進行指教最後祝各位委員身體健康萬事主義謝謝"},{"start":2735.56,"end":2738.242,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生、大家早安"},{"start":2755.592,"end":2776.989,"text":"感謝貴委員會邀請本部就我國經貿情勢分析及如何有效拓展國際經貿空間戰略規劃之相關政策作為：暨申請加入跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定CPTPP進度說明、成員國立場分析與跨部會推動機制進行報告並"},{"start":2779.753,"end":2805.712,"text":"並備詢以下僅提出本部的說明進行指教今年來因為地緣政治變化等因素歐美等國家開始強調供應鏈多元化再加上威權國家企圖以經濟脅迫來達到其政治目的已經損害到以規則為基礎之全球經貿秩序更使建構經濟安全及"},{"start":2807.458,"end":2835.18,"text":"任性、衛違、G7等理念相近國家當前政策的重心之一在全球供應鏈重組局勢之下為增加臺灣在全球供應鏈的重要性外交部的重要工作之一便在於與政府各部會配合、積極與理念相近國家共同打造安全、信任、具任性的供應鏈體系使臺灣成為民主陣營不可或缺的合作夥伴"},{"start":2836.26,"end":2855.843,"text":"本部因此將透過行政院經濟外交工作小組作為跨部會協作平台並透過臺灣優勢領域的知識服務智慧解決方案釋出加入CPTPP協助我國產業佈局全球"},{"start":2857.728,"end":2880.638,"text":"目前CPTPP成員國均已了解我國作為入會所做的準備也認為臺灣符合CPTPP高標準並願意完全遵守協定義務日本對我表示歡迎其餘各國也均表示歡迎符合協定高標準的國家入會"},{"start":2881.704,"end":2906.36,"text":"本部一向配合行政院經貿談判辦公室統籌、指揮相關駐外管處並與經濟部共同推案再次感謝貴委員會及各位委員對本部的支持與鼓勵也請各位委員繼續指教及協助謝謝來謝謝外交部吳市長報告現在請農業部由杜文貞常務市長報告"},{"start":2914.438,"end":2934.986,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生本人今天很榮幸代表農業部列席就大願今天這個專題進行報告那以下就加入CPTPP農業部門準備的情形報告如下一、我國跟CPTPP各國的農產貿易的關係那在跟12個CPTPP成員國裡面"},{"start":2937.047,"end":2943.932,"text":"國家的農產品出口至這12個國家的金額在2023年是16.3億美元那佔我國出口農產品總額的33.3%那我國從這12個CPTPP成員國2023年進口的農產品總共有57.8億美元"},{"start":2957.64,"end":2983.692,"text":"所有農產品進口總額的30.6%所以表示我國跟這12個會員國其實是非常重要的農業貿易夥伴那其中最大的3個外銷的主要的貿易國是日本、越南跟澳大利亞那主要的品項請各位自行參閱那我們從這12個CPTPP的夥伴國進口最主要的3大國家是日本、紐西蘭跟澳大利亞"},{"start":2984.432,"end":3013.207,"text":"那主要的品項也如列如報告請各位自行參閱那加入CPTPP對農業部門當然有一些注意也有一些挑戰那就效益的部分一共主要有三個那就像剛剛講的其實在12個CPTPP的成員國裡面他們的總農產品進口貿易額是2800億美元而我國出口到那些國家的只有16.3所以表示這當中其實還有很大的空間是可以讓我國農產品可以去"},{"start":3014.387,"end":3042.902,"text":"出口到那些國家去的那其中如果加入CPTPP特別是在關稅裡面有一些減讓的時候我相信這對我們的優良農產品的出口確實是有幫助的那第二個效益是在於說在加入之後其實有很多原料的進口的多樣化也對於我國農產品的加工確實是有可以有一些幫助因為臺灣的農產品加工確實有獨特之處那另外第三個就是加入CPTPP之後其實不我們跟成員國的部分農產品有互補"},{"start":3043.602,"end":3065.495,"text":"也有一些那個互相可以補充的效應﹐比方說像進口的中旅遊大豆小麥這些牛肉其實是我們國家相對是需要但是自己生產不足的﹐所以可以從這些國家以較好的價格跟品質進來那對於臺灣比較強項的﹐比方說這代水果、漁產品跟花卉也是我們是可以出口去到這些CPTPP成員國的一些品項"},{"start":3066.275,"end":3080.442,"text":"所以以上一共有三個效益但是也有三個挑戰那最大挑戰其實是在於關稅的部分那因為CPTPP他們這些成員國加入之後他們的關稅有大量的自由化其中的整個平均大概是96.2%"},{"start":3082.583,"end":3083.123,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":3104.471,"end":3128.425,"text":"關稅配額跟特別防衛措施的品項有20項請各位委員參閱所以我想加入CPTPP對農業部來講其實希望能夠在談判過程當中可以爭取到有特別一些敏感品項能夠排除降稅如果是爭取比較長的降稅期以避免對我國農業造成的影響所以我想在接下來的過程當中不管是基於談判"},{"start":3129.406,"end":3145.621,"text":"互相友好或是在科學透明的原則之下我想這都是我們在加入CPTPP的過程當中其實要努力來爭取的那農業部門的因應呢?農業部門其實是針對不管是有沒有加入CPTPP對於農業的永續經營對於農產品的穩定對於我國農業農民的收入或是對於整體的"},{"start":3153.208,"end":3168.203,"text":"產業來講其實都是長期要做的那因應加入CPTPP的農業的重要政策一共有7項那第一個就是希望我們的農業是一個進攻型的而不是只是守在我們自己的國內市場對於能夠多元加工對於能夠突破防疫檢疫障礙對於我們能夠"},{"start":3170.585,"end":3189.137,"text":"建立國家品牌形象對主動出擊的這個在歷年來都有很好的成績我想主動開發國際市場這是我們第一個策略第二個策略是推動地產地銷做市場區隔臺灣農產品是非常好的我們也希望透過我們各項的措施讓國人或是到臺灣旅遊人知道說臺灣的農產品的好"},{"start":3191.138,"end":3205.188,"text":"臺灣農產品的優良跟美所以我想推動地產地消這是我們第二個策略第三個是建構完整的冷鏈不管是從國內的生產從到過程的運輸到國外這個冷鏈要不中斷才能讓我們的產品能夠"},{"start":3206.409,"end":3223.084,"text":"到達對方的消費市場能夠保持一定的良好品質所以在建構冷鏈還有供應鏈的穩定這塊是我們第三個策略第四個是發展的六級產業提高農業的加值型所以不是只有生產在加工、在行銷在到當地的休閒旅遊"},{"start":3224.325,"end":3239.043,"text":"這整串的作為都是在農業希望能夠提高本身的農業價值跟增進農業對於貼近我們國人生活或是貼近整個文化的一些價值那第五個策略是加強這個綠色環境的給付"},{"start":3241.608,"end":3266.773,"text":"以把這個整個生產的結構鏈做調整那農業不只是生產農業還有許多的對於環境對於永續對於整體經營的一些需要在持續發展的所以在這綠色幾乎這塊我們會持續加強來做那第6項的策略是加強檢疫跟檢驗維持農業的生產環境那不論是國內疾病的清除或是在邊境防疫的檢疫那對於能夠維持我們國內生產環境的安全"},{"start":3268.735,"end":3283.434,"text":"提供健康的產品我想還可以突破我們的外銷檢疫障礙這是我們第6個策略第7個策略是加強農業保險維持我們的農業收入那我想積極拓展農產品的外銷新興市場這幾年一直有新的"},{"start":3284.255,"end":3304.625,"text":"成果出來請大家自行參與這過去幾年的成果那我想這樣的成果應該是所有的農民跟所有的行政部門大家一起的努力我們會繼續來做那結語就是CPTPP其實是重要的區域貿易夥伴那為了加入CPTPP我想農業部門會持續提升我們的轉型跟競爭力以上報告請各位進行指教謝謝"},{"start":3310.029,"end":3332.717,"text":"好,謝謝農業部杜文貞市長報告最後請行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表嚴慧琴報告主席主席、各位委員大家好"},{"start":3334.087,"end":3356.217,"text":"稱謀貴委員會的這個邀請就讓本辦公室可以來就今天的主題來進行說明那以下二要的這個說明敬請各位委員不吝指教首先我們在現在臺灣所面對的國際情勢上面當然看到全球經貿的情勢面對了這些地緣政治的影響不論從5218戰爭到美中的這些戰略性的"},{"start":3357.364,"end":3372.632,"text":"這個競爭都衝擊到了全球化以及供應鏈那特別是中國的產能過剩、經濟脅迫都影響了市場的公平也傷害到了這個多邊的貿易體系所以各國將經濟安全跟供應鏈的韌性列為優先的政策"},{"start":3373.392,"end":3401.378,"text":"對於我們這個全球的分工確實造成一些衝擊但是此外我們也觀察到氣候變遷以及科技發展實際上又促進了各國必須要做跨國合作的這個需求這些國際經貿的情勢使得現在的整個國際經貿體系產生的區域化集團化的一個發展理念相近的國家紛紛以區域貿易協定來強化夥伴之間的關係但是也對區域外的國家形成了壓力"},{"start":3402.398,"end":3409.884,"text":"所以在面對這樣的一個情勢之下我們的國際經貿的這個策略推動上面政府除了持續推動多邊來參與這個新的規範的制定"},{"start":3413.908,"end":3441.392,"text":"捍衛以及保護我們的經貿利益之外我們也透過新南向政策來深化我們跟東南亞國家的全方面的交流此外我們當然透過積極加入CPTPP以及與主要的貿易國家例如美國、英國、加拿大以及東南亞國家來洽結雙邊協定或投資協定來深化台灣跟這些國家的雙邊夥伴的關係至於在我們推動"},{"start":3442.652,"end":3470.158,"text":"加入CPTPP的面向上面CPTPP對我國來強化區域經濟體系的地位跟拓展國際經貿空間的意義非常重大所以目前我們確認了CPTPP的成員會依據奧克蘭三原則來處理新會員的加入也就是新會員必須要符合協定高標準、專守貿易承諾以及由全體成員以共識來決定"},{"start":3471.738,"end":3484.986,"text":"我國已經全面修法符合了CPTPP的規範而且我們向來都遵守國際貿易的承諾目前為止CPTPP的成員都沒有異議但是有特別請我們要加強"},{"start":3485.834,"end":3504.464,"text":"跟這些區域個別火彈之間的溝通以力達成共識政府各機關也全力合作持續透過各種的官方管道來洽請CPTPP的成員支持也擴大跟CPTPP的各個國內的各界"},{"start":3505.264,"end":3524.158,"text":"來形塑正面的輿論我們同時也藉由去推動洽簽雙邊協定來強化我們跟這些CPTPP國家的實質關係希望能夠打造我們加入CPTPP的一個有利讓我國的入會案可以取得共識的條件"},{"start":3525.441,"end":3536.685,"text":"未來政府各機關會持續各項工作希望可以爭取成員早日達到展開我國入會程序的共識以上報告 敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3557.046,"end":3571.704,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生承蒙各位委員會的邀請就今天的主題來做報告僅就本會設計本會業務的部分來向各位委員說明請各位委員指教那"},{"start":3573.285,"end":3595.537,"text":"近年兩岸的經貿情勢受到地緣政治、美中貿易及科技衝突、歐美等對大陸去風險化還有中國大陸經濟下行、投資環境惡化以及中共對台灣的經濟脅迫等影響當前的兩岸經貿交流已經出現了結構性的改變"},{"start":3596.879,"end":3602.879,"text":"這個改變包括了,第一個,臺灣對中國大陸的貿易依賴在降低當中"},{"start":3604.144,"end":3623.721,"text":"今年的1到9月我們對大陸的貿易金額佔我們對外貿易總額的比重已經下降到26.3%這是從2006年以來最低對大陸的出口比重今年的1到9月也下滑至20.3%"},{"start":3626.704,"end":3645.569,"text":"第2個改變是我們臺灣赴中國大陸的投資也在遞減當中2020年開始就開始在往下下降赴陸的投資從2010年最高峰的83.8%到今年1到9月只剩下7.4%"},{"start":3649.209,"end":3668.303,"text":"因應整個區域情勢與兩岸經貿關係的變化我想陸委會是協同經濟部還有剛剛這個各單位等政府機關已經持續的來做一些因應那包括了我們協助台商多元佈局也妥善因應中共對我們的經濟脅迫跟統戰作為"},{"start":3671.525,"end":3687.327,"text":"那這些還有包括中共對我們的一些所謂兩手策略對臺灣有所謂的兩岸融合發展措施吸引我們的企業、人才還有資金到大陸去發展那整個這個因應的作為我們"},{"start":3688.949,"end":3703.719,"text":"相關單位已經成立一個專案小職來做處理此外在拓展國際經貿空間部分各相關單位剛剛已經有做了很多說明那落會的資料就順便提供給各位委員來做參考"},{"start":3705.32,"end":3716.324,"text":"後續政府將持續關注中國大陸以及國際經貿發展的情勢妥善因應中國對於台灣經濟脅迫和統戰融合的作為最主要我們會在維護台灣經濟安全的前提下並持對等互利的原則持續推動兩岸經貿、健康有序的交流"},{"start":3727.248,"end":3755.515,"text":"也要積極協助臺商多元佈局提升臺灣的經濟自主性、安全和韌性以上報告敬請各委員指教謝謝謝謝陸委會李副主委報告好,我們要進行了詢問委員主席原例做以下的宣告每日委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必須延長2分鐘對本會委員4分鐘上午10點即時發言登記"},{"start":3757.065,"end":3785.918,"text":"那也還是要跟大家說明一下為了讓會議能夠順利進行以及讓每位委員發言時間的公平性能夠兼顧也不要影響到下一位委員發言的權益在委員諮詢時間到之後結束之後主席會立即請諮詢委員聽諮詢請各位諮詢委員能夠配合感謝好那先確定一下議事錄請問在場委員對上次會議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":3787.83,"end":3803.369,"text":"沒有,我們就確定,上次已釋入確定好,第一位諮詢請林黛華委員有請經濟部部長跟經貿談判辦公室談判辦公室嚴副總談判代表"},{"start":3812.438,"end":3828.221,"text":"第一個本席想了解現在政府的看分析跟因應美國川普總統當選之後對產業有哪些影響你們的觀察跟因應是什麼來部長跟經貿辦公室各自回答我不知道對不起你剛才講川普總統當選之後對產業有什麼可能的影響"},{"start":3840.637,"end":3854.173,"text":"跟委員報告對產業的影響是這樣子因為川普總統主張一向主張美國優先的單邊主義所以對全球的自由貿易的發展將會有影響"},{"start":3855.489,"end":3874.405,"text":"那主要他想他對中國的產品加徵60%的關稅那麼對台灣或者是其他的國家大概就是10%到20%的這個關稅所以我認為應該是對我們在中國的台商影響會比較大"},{"start":3876.345,"end":3891.665,"text":"那其他的國家呢應該大家都一樣因為所有要賣到美國的東西啊課的稅金如果是一樣的話其實是不會太大的影響那部長您的這個觀察相對應我們國的產業政策上是不是應該還有哪些重點的加強呢"},{"start":3892.833,"end":3921.17,"text":"我們在產業上我們當時扶植主要是這個出口的產業我們要讓它趁著這個機會趁這個機會這個市場上面的改變我們要強化它的競爭力好 那經貿辦公室您的看法我們跟美國之間在長年以來已經建立了很多很良好的經貿互動的基礎所以包括我們台灣跟美國的21世紀倡議的談判"},{"start":3923.101,"end":3949.841,"text":"還有包括了我們的TTIC跟EPPD這些雙邊的合作平臺那我們接下來會持續的跟川普新政府希望可以維持這些在新這些平臺既有平臺上面的互動這個副總談判代表您剛才講到臺美21世紀貿易倡議你這個會本席很高興你有提到這一點因為這個是被視為臺美的自由貿易協定"},{"start":3952.723,"end":3974.476,"text":"今天的主題都是講多邊但是這個臺美四季貿易倡議談判其實在我們本國來講是認為我們跟臺美的自由貿易協定所以你認為會不會有受影響以及你們與你的因應對策那本席最在意的在去年6月簽署之後那執行的效果又是如何謝謝委員的詮詢"},{"start":3977.099,"end":3988.651,"text":"那就這個議題呢我們就是會持續跟現在的在川普上任川普政府上任之後的新的經貿團隊持續維持聯繫來確認他們接下來的這個經貿談判的這個策略那當然我們會盡可能的努力去朝向繼續維持在臺美倡議之下那我們有請國部長"},{"start":3999.963,"end":4018.702,"text":"部長剛才你兩項分析啊那美國對中國課60%所以迫使供應鏈一定重整產品更會重視供應鏈的去紅化所以本期就是要講到說好我們國內的所有產業政策您所督導的這個技術過往的技術現在技術師那還有產發署"},{"start":4023.787,"end":4039.597,"text":"那還有工業區等在整個去紅化我們的相關的預算跟的補助跟這個政策的導向上那就是應該要更聚焦了這是本席的一個呼應你也希望政策上能夠聚焦在此去紅化"},{"start":4041.459,"end":4064.833,"text":"其他國家課證10%和20%的關稅美國製造也就一定會成為趨勢了所以臺積電到半導體等半導體廠繼續在美投資這也勢必勢必的趨勢好本席關心的在川普的選舉過程當中他講保付費這三個字他對關稅他對晶片補助很有意見"},{"start":4070.316,"end":4073.259,"text":"尤其臺灣對美國的順差是這麼的大昨天臺積電ADR的月盤跌1.3%川普對於晶片政策顯示一定會帶來衝擊所以臺灣既有的晶片設廠計畫尤其我高雄廠"},{"start":4090.72,"end":4110.457,"text":"是否會受到影響?而且這個台積電確定也一定會至少在他任內一定會深耕美國我的就業機會、我的人才會不會因為而流失?全球供應業也因為川普的當選我相信又有一波的重整潮"},{"start":4111.258,"end":4134.873,"text":"所以我們經濟部又做了哪些準備所以因為順差大會不會取消我們的關稅跟晶片的補助部長你怎麼因應以及我高雄廠的晶片設廠會不會受到影響第三全球供應的再次重整經濟部如何因應報告委員這個台積電他赴美投資我想這個是從川普政府開始"},{"start":4136.241,"end":4139.526,"text":"臺積電赴美投資社長加上供應商將為美國帶來數以萬計的工作機會美國政府對臺積電的重視與支持應該不會改變"},{"start":4150.836,"end":4168.598,"text":"那麼因為他有很多的是法令晶片法是法令所以他也不會那麼那他會取消這個晶片的補助啊這是他所謂的保護費啊他會取消臺灣對一些相關的關稅啊這個部分我們都有一些因應的辦法"},{"start":4169.417,"end":4188.874,"text":"那本席最在意的是我高雄廠的社長會被影響那沒關係部長我做一個提點我們意向就是希望他上任之後至少他內閣團隊也我相信還有一段時間的就職那我想我們要積極的因應好那另外一個議題就是針對我國要加入國際經貿合作"},{"start":4190.475,"end":4218.36,"text":"本席就一直很認為是要務實所以我對現在外交部的工作我非常非常的肯認他把臺灣的經濟的軟實力如何來加惠我們的邦交國甚至潛力的非邦交國他們的做法那當然我也知道我們經濟部也參與其中所以這個部分我非常非常肯定所以在另外一個議題就是如何讓高雄成為南進呂宋島經濟難帶的基地"},{"start":4220.02,"end":4244.261,"text":"好 那這個每日非三國領袖在今年4月的時候聯合聲明了這個全球基建夥伴的投資夥伴關係這也就是我們俗稱的這個呃呃呂宋島的經濟那因為時間的關係我聚焦石化產業經濟部是否現在還在評估石化業參與呂宋島經濟走廊的合作範疇"},{"start":4248.565,"end":4273.525,"text":"現在行政院已經核定的新市經是否還要繼續執行?部長您回答這兩個問題報告委員我想這個區域經濟的發展是近期在國際上不斷地在討論的那麼全球自由化已經滅亡這個我想前幾天張忠謀董事長也有在呼應這個命題所以我們關心鄰近的區域的國家的發展"},{"start":4274.417,"end":4299.467,"text":"那麼至於您剛剛所關心的石油化是不是外移我想這一個應該不是在我們討論的這個面子之內好 非常好那我想這個整我至少我高雄整個石化業全台灣40萬的從業人口我想因為你這句話他們放120個心好 那現在核定的新事情要不要繼續進行呢因為行政院核定之後中油馬上第一件工作就是環評環評在國內沒有一年以上它不叫環評"},{"start":4304.309,"end":4314.229,"text":"所以他需要時間他馬上是要核定的那現在董事長、總經理也都在經濟部核定之下上任了所以新事情要不要如期的進行了"},{"start":4315.712,"end":4342.508,"text":"這個我想要這個院裡面來做決定那院已經合訂了部長這是上次在陳建仁院長的時候他合訂的那現在已經合訂之後到你到你這個經濟部了那經濟部下中遊也接到指令了所以部長新世青是不是按照我們既定的既然石化會沒有外移就當然就是照既定的計畫去執行啊部長那你支不支持新世青現在馬上繼續按計畫執行呢"},{"start":4344.853,"end":4346.765,"text":"這個我想我們還需要跟高雄市政府來討論"},{"start":4348.16,"end":4372.181,"text":"市政府當然我們已經行政院合併的事情部長我們是不是讓新市經繼續因為這個跟市政府沒有關係了環評當然會有這相關的環保相關的這個流程需要市政府的環保局提供意見需要經發局相關的提供意見當然他們一定得提供意見那部長是不是您要支持新市經繼續按計畫執行呢"},{"start":4375.851,"end":4378.386,"text":"我這個回去跟經濟部的同仁討論"},{"start":4379.892,"end":4406.093,"text":"好 部長好 那你就繼續討論我還會繼續問你這個沒有進入狀況喔 部長好 新世青這個是已經爭取了多久然後呢 這個合併了那因為你的一句話好 那我們說要外移大家這個簡直就是炸鍋了然後現在新世青是有關我的環保、公安、智慧管理導入我的這個石化產業整個高質化的全面提升啦"},{"start":4406.613,"end":4435.007,"text":"部長我再問一次新市經是不是按照行政院合併的計畫去執行現在趕快進入到環評的程序好謝謝謝謝委員這個我們就是執行單位嘛已經通過的我們當然會進行好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝林大華委員部長請回座相關列席官請回座好謝謝消費資金請邱毅英委員"},{"start":4443.018,"end":4453.267,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請一下這個外交部次長請外交部副次長次長很難得到經濟委員會來那個經貿辦經貿辦嚴副總裁是不是也準備一下"},{"start":4466.566,"end":4490.487,"text":"市長早市長我想這個從昨天到現在大概全球都在關注美國的大選那川普先生再度當選美國的總統而他的參眾兩院看起來目前看起來也會是共和黨來掌握所以他應該是久違了所謂的全面執政"},{"start":4491.548,"end":4517.666,"text":"那全球關注川普的當選我想台灣當然也不能置身事外我比較想聽一下到底外交部的分析就是說現在這樣的一個新的局面對於台灣的具體影響是什麼你們外交部現在能不能分析到或者是掌握到川普當選之後在台美關係的進展上面包括我們過去在談的幾項經貿協議上面"},{"start":4522.008,"end":4534.134,"text":"會不會有更進一步的發展還是說會停滯不前?我想聽一下外交部的意見報告委員我想美國是我們最重要的盟邦那外交部"},{"start":4535.038,"end":4560.305,"text":"及我們政府重要工作就是與新當選的美國政府來進行最密切的合作所以現在川普政府新當選我想外交部以及我們政府現在已經積極開始跟川普總統的團隊在進行溝通然後看未來如何合作我基本上以外交部的立場來看"},{"start":4562.267,"end":4568.903,"text":"一個民主、繁榮、擁有高科技半導體科技的台灣"},{"start":4570.869,"end":4595.382,"text":"我剛才講說民主繁榮、自由和平這個絕對是美國兩黨的重大的國家利益我想這個是一個非常清楚的那臺灣也是世界根據各項的指示十大科技國之一美國現在世界上各國都是在爭取作為科技領導國像AI所以我想一個"},{"start":4596.623,"end":4625.248,"text":"願意跟美國合作一個穩定、一個民主、一個自由的台灣絕對是新的美國政府的重大利益所以我簡單請教一下您認為未來台美關係會不會更好我認為基本上可是說這樣子問會速度太快但是您如果我換個角度問你啦您對於未來台美關係是抱持什麼樣的態度是樂觀呢還是悲觀呢還是"},{"start":4626.141,"end":4648.479,"text":"我基本上是對於不僅僅是臺美、臺歐關係我是持樂觀的態度就是我們現在看整體的地緣政治環境的變遷所以你認為未來的臺灣在這個國際的這個戰略地位上面其實我相當樂觀就根據我在六年在法國擔任大使我看到是這樣的一個趨勢好 社長謝謝來我請一下那個經貿辦"},{"start":4653.362,"end":4660.808,"text":"如果說剛剛外交部的整體評估包括次長的認為未來的這個關係是樂觀的臺美關係是樂觀的我想進一步請教經貿辦在我們臺美21世紀的這個貿易倡議協定裡頭在8月的時候其實這個"},{"start":4672.857,"end":4697.99,"text":"在8月的時候美國政府已經把它放進去要進一步來核定了包括戴琪也在進一步的這個發展請一下經貿辦現在的進度到哪裡就是說我們第一批可以什麼時候可以真正開始落實真的開始可以開始執行好謝謝委員的追尋針對我們臺美的21世紀貿易倡議首先要先說明的是這個倡議本身的推動"},{"start":4698.755,"end":4727.582,"text":"以及美國必須制定一個國內法的相應執行法這都是美國跨黨派的共識現在未來他如果是完全執政的話你們推估這個進度會不會加速到底什麼時候可以完成第一批首先第一批協定我們也持續跟現在的貿易團隊在進行溝通他們的基本上給我們的是一個非常樂觀看待的一個進展"},{"start":4728.072,"end":4755.049,"text":"那現在基本上已經在跟國會溝通的過程當中首批協議國會沒有其他的意見那所以接下來可能只剩下行政程序就是我們雙方原來說的行政程序大概是60天完成所以原來推估大概是11月可以完成這些行政程序但可能美國大選時程上是會有一些delay這個部分我是不是也要請經貿辦你們可能還需要確實去掌握一下包括21世紀的貿易倡議協議"},{"start":4756.79,"end":4773.305,"text":"第一批執行的日期跟第二批持續後續的談判的日期接下來是這個全面的租稅協議的部分這個可能也都是經貿辦很重要的一個工作所以這一些進度上面的掌握包括未來跟新政府之間的溝通"},{"start":4775.147,"end":4789.957,"text":"這個可能也要請經貿辦多花一點心思可以嗎?那接下來要請教跟這個今天這個我們主席排定的主題是比較有相關的對於CPTPP我想主責單位也是在經貿辦那台灣其實在過去的幾年我們把"},{"start":4795.382,"end":4808.375,"text":"相關的法令都把它修改了因為我們已經準備好要加入CPTPP但是我想請問經貿辦到底我們現在在推動的進展如何"},{"start":4810,"end":4827.651,"text":"我看這個這個會員國啊CPTPP的會員國在去年他們有一個所謂的奧克蘭三原則就是說要有高標準要有遵守貿易承諾然後呢是要共識絕對於新加入的會員國是要有所謂的這個所謂的奧克蘭三標準"},{"start":4829.972,"end":4850.132,"text":"那看起來包括澳洲的貿易部跟日本多次都是表達中國可能是沒有達到CPTPP的標準那我不知道就你們的掌握台灣有沒有那台灣在這個布局上面在這個推動的時程上面台灣還缺了什麼東西"},{"start":4852.278,"end":4864.515,"text":"謝謝委員的吹薰確實現在的CPTPP針對新申請國確實按照奧克蘭三原則也就是要符合高標準要有過去有良好的貿易承諾的紀錄以及共識訣我們現在已經透過任何各種的"},{"start":4868.721,"end":4883.687,"text":"多邊雙邊的這些架構跟CPTPP的成員國做過接觸那我們所得到的訊息是這些國家對於臺灣的高標準以及符合貿易承諾這些良好紀錄完全沒有任何的意見他們覺得臺灣都可以達到"},{"start":4884.383,"end":4909.608,"text":"那當然他們有請我們共識覺這一個是大家需要共同努力的所以還有特別請我們辦公室以及請我們臺灣要所以你們有沒有進行過任何的遊說包括這個很快的在27號可能會在加拿大要開的所謂的執行委員會包括明年在澳洲那我不知道經貿辦你們有沒有在這個過程裡頭或者是在這個期間去進行任何的遊說"},{"start":4910.788,"end":4919.676,"text":"我國當前經貿情勢分析及如何有效拓展國際經貿空間戰略規劃之相關政策作為：暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明、成員國立場分析與跨部會主任委員會首長、農業部部長、經濟部部長、行政院經貿分析與跨部會主任委員會首長、農業部長、行政院經貿分析與跨部會主任委員會首長、農業部長、行政院經貿分析與跨部會主任委員會首長、農業部長、行政院經貿分析與跨部會主任委員會首長、農業部長、行政院經貿分析與跨部會主任委員"},{"start":4930.905,"end":4957.499,"text":"這些會員國一直不敢對於台灣的入會審查表達任何的意見主要的壓力來源會在哪裡如果照您剛剛講的包括我們這幾個會員國對於台灣都是高度肯定的那我們一直沒有辦法得到首肯入會您覺得壓力來源會是在哪裡會是在中國嗎會不會是中國的施壓所以讓這些會員國不敢在這個時候或者是不敢這麼貿然的表態來支持台灣加入CPTPP"},{"start":4958.559,"end":4983.907,"text":"我覺得CPTPP因為他們尊重他們的共識覺的過程所以基本上他們希望是透過內部已經有達到一致性的一個看法他們才會對外去表示他們的意見OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員委員來 請官員請回座先為質詢請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":4994.359,"end":4998.635,"text":"謝謝主席 本席邀請我們郭部長請經濟部郭部長"},{"start":5006.618,"end":5034.873,"text":"委員長部長好昨天大家非常關注全球2024年美國大選結果是川普當選第47屆那大家都很清楚川普的經濟政策他的核心是要創造就業那所以我們也看到在今年的這個7月份的時候呢他接受了彭博商業週刊的訪問當中他也提出了首次提出主張"},{"start":5035.834,"end":5058.911,"text":"他說臺灣已經從美國搶走了幾乎百分之一百晶片的產業那我們可以預見也就是川普政府他會要求臺積電更多的生產線拉回美國讓美國有更多的就業機會那我們也看到了我們的臺晶院預測中心的舜敏德主任"},{"start":5060.631,"end":5074.497,"text":"他也預測他說2奈米會提前赴美那在這樣的一個情況之下想請教部長如果是這種情況的時候他不只是影響到臺積電工程師跟相關供應的產業的這個廠商的人才會被美國這個奪走那也會造成我國就業機會"},{"start":5085.902,"end":5102.615,"text":"的一個剝奪在這樣的一個情況之下尤其我們記得在前年那台積電要赴美的時候就有用專機載了我國人這些的工程人才過去所以在這樣的背景之下請教部長如果這些都屬實我們怎麼應對"},{"start":5107.213,"end":5135.351,"text":"報告委員我想這個川普先前宣稱將這個台積電偷走美國半導體的工作機會是我想這個是他可能還是有一些誤解那對他是誤解我認為他是誤解是那事實上也有很多的專家學者都在談論這個議題是就是說臺美雙方在經濟特別是這個半導體供應鏈上面其實是互補的"},{"start":5136.633,"end":5160.74,"text":"那麼沒有台積電美國的大型科技無法取得這個具有價格競爭力的先進半導體晶片所以他想要說2奈米提早進行這個是一個趨勢是一個趨勢但是會提早什麼時候進行是這個必須要美國的這個客戶他們的需求因為什麼"},{"start":5161.567,"end":5178.533,"text":"因為臺灣做製造的然後送到美國就10%的稅金所以這個只是增加他們的成本但是在美國製造它也只有降10%"},{"start":5179.893,"end":5198.705,"text":"所以對這個高科技的東西動輒像這個幾個大型的這個公司他們的獲利不是說幾十%是幾倍的所以他們是沒差,他們是要穩的在台灣製造是比較穩,良率比較高本來就是有這樣的條件"},{"start":5200.726,"end":5218.399,"text":"是那如果照剛剛部長您所說的也就是我們還是樂觀以對但是部長因為換了總統他的作為不是我們可以預估當然我們有我們自己觀察的一個管道跟我們的方向但是我還是要建議我們務必要怎麼樣讓我國的就業率"},{"start":5222.782,"end":5239.654,"text":"可以得到保障同時也讓協助我們的廠商可以讓臺灣這個產業界能夠來穩定我想這個是我們現在所必須要去謹慎的去觀察之而且必須要有超前部署的應對方式"},{"start":5241.332,"end":5268.686,"text":"謝謝委員的這個指教我在上任以後我有提出這個境外關內的這個做法也就是說碰到像川普總統這樣的一個作為的話那麼我們在供應鏈上面就會移動到這個美國去那幫助他們我們這個商務組會幫助他們來談更優惠的這個條件因為是落實他的這個讓美國更偉大的這樣的一個策略"},{"start":5268.746,"end":5288.223,"text":"我們要達到雙贏的這個政策嗎?對,我們是朝這個方向在努力朝什麼方向?朝雙贏的方向雙贏的方向嗎?好,我們繼續努力那接下來本校要請教,他曾經說了,川普先生也說了說你台灣要保護可以啊,你叫保護會啊那你應該要找更多的保護會啊甚至他提出必須要我們GDP的10%"},{"start":5290.285,"end":5302.137,"text":"那如果依照我們2025年的這個預算來看呢我們的國防預算是6470億那等於是增加比2024年增加的7.7%那等於是佔我們GDP的2.45%那如果陳路達所說的要增加到10%那等於是要多少是要2.6兆請教部長可能嗎我方可能會如此嗎"},{"start":5315.261,"end":5337.889,"text":"我想這個是國防部跟外交部他們可以一起努力的部分部長你這麼回答我給你應許也讚許就是說你朝著你的本位也就是他們未來會怎麼樣但是重點在這裡會不會衝擊到我們對經濟的一個發展的影響這個是我們必須要努力"},{"start":5338.729,"end":5355.741,"text":"去站在我們經濟的角度好好的去保護我們的這個產業對不對是朝這個方向嘛那接下來本席要請教也就是說川普先生呢他主要他就是低稅率低利率以及高關稅的這個情況"},{"start":5357.782,"end":5385.8,"text":"他也說囉他說呢這個大家都把便宜的東西呢傾銷到他們那邊去所以在這種情況之下他的一個決策也就是增高關稅增高關稅呢所以我們是以出國為傾向喔那對於出國為導向的國家那勢必會有所影響如果美元貶台幣升那在這樣的情況之下我首先要請教請教主委請教部長"},{"start":5386.801,"end":5414.477,"text":"我們要怎麼樣去保護我們的產業你所當其中的會有哪些產業請教我們大概現在蘇美的這個部分蘇美國的部分因為他是科技國家所以大概科技商品會比較多那我們盡量把這個我剛才有跟委員報告我這個境外關內的這個措施協助我們台灣的這個產業移到"},{"start":5420.791,"end":5439.687,"text":"移到美國去生產但是這個也會衝擊到我國國內的就業率應該是不會因為我們那些產業基本上都在不在國內生產都已經在海外其他的國家上你把我國境外的產業移到美國去生產異地去生產就解除了它的高關稅是"},{"start":5440.928,"end":5455.04,"text":"你是不是如此但是方向是這樣方向是這樣但是部長我要告訴你臺灣的中小企業占了98%如果你競爭優勢強的當然如你所說的你的政策它可以安穩過關"},{"start":5456.221,"end":5473.602,"text":"但是如果它的競爭力弱它也走不了的那這些產業佔我國國內非常重大的一個比例那怎麼辦呢?這個部分我們大概會透過數位化跟低碳化的兩個措施來協助"},{"start":5474.603,"end":5488.954,"text":"這一些比較艱苦的傳統產業讓它能夠升級讓它具有低成本然後可以有高值化的這個這樣的努力我想這樣來協助他們讓他可以堅強自己的這個腳步啊這個方向是對"},{"start":5492.156,"end":5517.495,"text":"但是委員跟你討論的就是說這個腳步你一定要加強是的你的預算也要增加因為我們已經可以預測到我們如果比較競爭力弱而且它是整個它要轉換成本低的它有困難的我們必須要去協助它這是政府非常重要的一個角色扮演務必要達成成功是請委員支持這個預算當中 對不對"},{"start":5518.997,"end":5529.506,"text":"這一定要好好努力好不好謝謝謝謝楊瓊怡委員部長請回座楊委員事先掌握諸位楷模謝謝謝偉智欣請陳廷飛委員謝謝張偉我們是不是請部長請經濟部郭部長"},{"start":5550.495,"end":5578.724,"text":"委員長部長我昨天已經針對所謂的要課保護稅這個部分因為現在已經確定了川普當選那課保護費的部分昨天部長你們講很清楚跟國發會主委說你們不認為這會發生因為這後面所影響的層面太大了因為又有在整個市場面的問題然後甚至是在未來的所有晶片產業的發展"},{"start":5580.504,"end":5597.195,"text":"保護費這個部分可能是一個選舉時候的語言所以我相信很清楚但是現在我們想要了解的是川普當選之後在經貿情勢的改變你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":5598.857,"end":5627.318,"text":"是有的有掌握掌握的程度如何報告委員這個川普主張的是美國優先對那這個單邊主義我想他上任以後會有底下幾個影響我跟委員報告第一個對全球自由貿易的發展將會有一些影響那麼台美產業供應鏈關係因為是屬於互補互利那麼預期雙方仍將會維持穩定的貿易關係那麼川普也曾經"},{"start":5628.539,"end":5648.897,"text":"表示將對中國的產品加徵60%的關稅所以這個我國的業者因應全球供應鏈的移轉已經降低對中國貿易的依賴以及投資那麼我們對美出口的中間財提升美國的生產效率對美國的投資可以創造美國就業的這個機會那麼強化臺美供應鏈的體系"},{"start":5653.962,"end":5682.433,"text":"那如果說他加徵了10%的關稅我沒有什麼影響這個他可能會墊高美國的進口成本美國的經濟受負面的影響導致美國的消費需求下降那麼會影響全球產品對美的出口那經濟部會做什麼事情第一持續的推動境外關內透過以大帶小的方式協助臺灣產業供應鏈到美國拓展商機"},{"start":5683.996,"end":5712.916,"text":"建立強韌供應鏈及擴大合作二、持續與川普政府溝通讓美國瞭解臺灣是美國最重要的夥伴第三、我們會密切關注川普就任後的經貿政策以上報告部長我從這裡面你所講的我想臺美之間從現在已經在協談的這些穩定的經貿關係我想不會改變"},{"start":5714.057,"end":5735.555,"text":"因為川普從過去擔任總統的時候跟台灣基本上就是友好那當然美國優先他們會以美國優先的利益考量但是因為台灣是一個很重要的一個貿易夥伴所以在這個貿易夥伴的潛力之下他也不可能隨意去放棄"},{"start":5736.596,"end":5759.855,"text":"所以這個部分穩定的狀態我覺得我不擔心但是現在大家所擔心的就是說他可能對於全球去課徵這所謂的10%的一個關稅那這個部分我們部長剛剛有說我們會來協助可是如果依照全面性的一個思考也就是說"},{"start":5761.757,"end":5784.328,"text":"如果要課徵這10%他其實還有很多的關卡沒錯現在在整個眾議院的一個結果參眾的部分好像也是川普會佔的比較優勢所以在這樣的前提他提出來有可能參眾這個部分會比較容易通過但是這是事關體大"},{"start":5786.395,"end":5799.447,"text":"這並不是他們決定的他們必須面對他們國內的產業而且關稅提高未必對美國是有利的所以當然要對全球關稅提高10%我相信這一個壓力會出現"},{"start":5805.816,"end":5828.268,"text":"不會是這麼容易但是另外一個區塊是在中國產業加徵60%我反而覺得這個部分依照川普過去的態度擔任總統那四年的態度這是極有可能馬上會發生的那這極有可能馬上發生那這些產業"},{"start":5830.257,"end":5837.024,"text":"這些產業部長你們有去掌控他要加徵60%的關稅的這些產業跟臺灣的關係我們可不可以利用這個區塊這個空窗去增加我們廠商的競爭力"},{"start":5846.914,"end":5866.799,"text":"謝謝委員指教我這部分我們會趕快回去就這個命題就做深入的研究然後我們應該會很快的提出一些協助我們臺商如何轉移他的生產基地如何讓他不會說因為他是made in China所以造成60%的關稅的需要"},{"start":5870.373,"end":5883.624,"text":"而且部長今天吃了兩個區塊一個當然我們要保護可能因為在中國生產而美國在中國產業增加60%關稅而受到影響這是一個區塊第二個區塊是我們台灣的產業怎麼乘勝追擊"},{"start":5892.811,"end":5895.839,"text":"也就是因為它對中國產業增加了60%關稅之後我們怎麼協助我們台灣的產業趕快搶攻這個區塊"},{"start":5902.165,"end":5929.674,"text":"我認為我們應該是要將臺灣的產業高質化沒錯避開中國的這個競爭我們現在就在做啦是我們現在其實因為我們慢慢的已經希望臺灣產業是脫離中國的陰影嘛我們過去是綁在一起的還好我們從蔡英文政府上任之後我們慢慢在做一個切割的動作我們也提醒我們的產業"},{"start":5931.374,"end":5952.265,"text":"也就是事實度依照整個全球的一個氛圍已經不再是一個依賴中國的時代了而是我們要走出自己的一條路所以在這段時間確實我們所有的產業已經都慢慢轉型可是轉型的沒有那麼快那我們甚至可以利用這個區段"},{"start":5954.366,"end":5982.649,"text":"我們趕快把所謂轉型的一個量能提高是量能提高之後讓他們能夠進入到這一個增加所謂的訂單的區塊美國訂單的區塊因為你中國產業增加60%一定會有一個空窗期出現嘛是那我們怎麼去抓住這個時機點這個很重要所以我們要拜託部長是不是可以幫我們盤整到底"},{"start":5983.51,"end":5985.718,"text":"美國有可能在第一波"},{"start":5987.157,"end":6008.643,"text":"對中國產業課徵增加60%關稅的產業是哪些?」現在他沒講嘛現在川普並沒有講沒有講是哪些產業他只有說我會對中國的產業增加課徵60%關稅那麼我們要密切去注意到底哪些那我們要針對這些產業怎麼跟台灣來做一個相對應"},{"start":6014.978,"end":6029.628,"text":"不論是它的量能提高、它的轉型然後進而去搶得這個訂單部長這多久可以把它稍微把這個區塊能夠有一些樣化"},{"start":6030.885,"end":6046.622,"text":"我們會觀察然後我們的智庫會再快速的收集資料然後來整理我認為一個月之內應該可以得到這個部長一個月一個月我們希望這一個月把這些資料很完整的提供給"},{"start":6047.683,"end":6060.216,"text":"本辦公室,然後讓我們如何來協助我們的相關產業搶得這一波可能川普上任之後所面臨的整個經貿的改變。」"},{"start":6070.785,"end":6084.799,"text":"部長請回座不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢不敢"},{"start":6099.22,"end":6127.997,"text":"請郭部長叫外交部的吳次長謝謝經濟部的郭部長、外交部的吳次長委員長保定你先休息一下,我先請教吳次長委員好川普動算當然要先恭喜啦先恭喜,希望台美關係也是越來越好你講話一向也是很精準不過最近有引起一個風暴我們來今天把它講清楚好不好我們今天來講個情緒"},{"start":6130.109,"end":6157.903,"text":"你後來有解釋好像不是接受媒體訪問可是當初的這個媒體是這樣講等於說你接受美國這個國會三報的這個訪問的時候提到兩個然後講引起爭議是兩個你說對美國這個選情選舉這個一方面在觀察嘛一方面非常的擔心very very early 對不對這個引起一個討論這是一個點那我今天要跟你進一步討論更重要的這個報導裡面講到說吳志忠說要是川普放棄台灣"},{"start":6159.417,"end":6161.499,"text":"那我很納悶他還能怎樣讓美國再次偉大因為他將在亞太失去友邦對美國的支持跟威信"},{"start":6176.482,"end":6205.865,"text":"一個一個來這次對你提出主意的是共和黨前亞太主席國際政治貫徹汪耿應該也熟嘛對不對他很有代表性他說你這個講話非常失禮不恰當你怎麼解釋好 那個委員你可以再回到The Hill那個報紙你可以看到他已經把那個拿掉了他已經把它拿掉了下架了是吧你說把他拿掉了是吧不是我 我沒有辦法拿掉是他把那個拿掉就是說"},{"start":6206.803,"end":6220.751,"text":"他代表他承認他聽錯了我在講那是一個禮拜就是在11月2號前一個在10月底的時候我們外交部國傳司通常會請各國記者大概有20個然後我們說我們來閒聊一下"},{"start":6222.096,"end":6249.917,"text":"那個接受訪問跟閒聊是兩個不一樣的事情接受訪問我用字當然會很精準不是接受訪問是聊天有十幾個國家的記者在嗎記者對閒聊而且有那個錄音記錄我們在撥給阿丁他自己承認他聽錯了所以你可以看到那些不存在那至於委員講的方案格律他是根據一個錯誤的報導做出一個這樣的回應所以我就不曉得怎麼去說因為這一句話是不存在的嘛"},{"start":6250.856,"end":6260.087,"text":"市長所以你有沒有講你對這個美國這個選舉是非常非常擔心這個事業有沒有講有吧是有講不是正式嗎不是我是對就是說"},{"start":6261.061,"end":6283.309,"text":"我是對於那個uncertainty very very worried那這個而且我講的是怎麼樣我剛才講提到說我是講歐洲人是因為我回答我當然知道他要問我是台灣的概念對不對那我就跟他講你可以把原文再找回來我說我剛從歐洲回來所以我可以跟那個記者說明說其實歐洲國家是比我們更加擔心的所以我們有擔心"},{"start":6283.829,"end":6311.49,"text":"歐洲比我們更擔心,是不是?那我相信,如果說那個意思在我想每一個國家尤其是美國是我們最重要的盟邦我們當然會對於他們的一個選舉的發展我們會關心,應該是關心不是憂心我是基於我的國家利益我大概要回答出我們非常關心這樣的一個選舉結果對,所以是關心不是憂心,對不對?第二個更重要要問你那句話,你有講說"},{"start":6312.432,"end":6315.468,"text":"要是川普放棄台灣嗎?應該他不至於放棄台灣吧?"},{"start":6316.601,"end":6343.702,"text":"那時候應該是在聊天談到某些狀況對不對放棄台灣是記者提的然後我把他句子再repeat一次對 因為我基本上認為我剛才其實前面我有被接受剛才是回答諮詢我基本上認為一個民主自由擁有高科技台灣是被認為世界上第七大高科技國這樣的國家中華民國穩定存在是符合美國的利益所以他的提問我不認為會成立的"},{"start":6345.26,"end":6352.624,"text":"所以第一個是關心不是憂心第二個你不認為川普會放棄臺灣我們就兩個定論好不好我們請部長來我們來談產業的發展川普動算對臺灣的經濟影響至少有這幾個層面"},{"start":6362.466,"end":6390.453,"text":"這個剛剛有在談了他說進口的商品關稅要提高18%以上大部分是10%到20%是他還要施壓貿易夥伴貨幣要升值美元是要貶值的另外施壓貿易夥伴要提高環保跟勞工的待遇我們的臺美21世紀貿易倡議就是三大面向農業、環保跟勞工待遇這個影響也會很大事實上那影響最大的會是什麼這是我現在要跟你談的"},{"start":6392.553,"end":6413.328,"text":"調查對美貿易順差擴大的國家我另外講一個重要的事情我們去年對美國出口762億美元美國現在是我們最大的前三季今年的前三季美國也是我們單一最大的出口國了我們賺人家的錢去年就賺美國355億美元然後他現在"},{"start":6418.817,"end":6445.983,"text":"他的政見裡面很重要就是要去追查這個嘛然後追查以後他的連帶就是要調高關稅嘛那你怎麼因應我們對委員報告在之前我們想我們過去到美國去輸出到美國去大概是高科技產品比較多啦那這個另一個就是因為台積電到美國去投資所以那個相對的會變成金額會比較高"},{"start":6447.13,"end":6452.656,"text":"那麼在未來我想臺積電會持續在美國再擴大他的投資這個也是一個趨勢"},{"start":6454.588,"end":6476.68,"text":"那我們要讓美國的這一些能夠了解這個是過去我們粗糙到美國是幫助美國建立他的這個產業基礎所以並不是說我賺他很多錢而是去幫助美國建立他的產業基礎所以我想這個要多溝通啦現在最明顯的影響是這樣"},{"start":6479.414,"end":6488.58,"text":"他對大陸要、中國大陸要60%嘛對不對對我們應該是10到20嘛對不對然後事實上大家沒有注意到更嚴重的是更重要的是什麼美國他就沒有關稅問題他是0嘛"},{"start":6490.02,"end":6514.525,"text":"所以剛剛講我們的台商如果是在大陸的他一定從60%那邊他可能就往美國跑或者是回來這是一個點嘛 對不對那第二個對我們來講對我們台灣的台商來講一方面是在中國大陸的一方面如果在台灣的關稅要提高那這個我們要趕快注意好不好所以你剛剛有答應你一個月一個月內你把哪些產業會受到影響更重要的更重要的要怎麼幫他們一個月內要提出來好不好因為現在民眾最關心的我要講是台積電"},{"start":6516.994,"end":6534.389,"text":"台積...因為他已經講說你搶了他的...我們搶了他的台積...那個晶片的生意嘛你也應該很清楚嘛這...這...不是我們搶他的...我們是替他...替美國人心善的啦這會賺錢啦對啦對啦 但是他...事實上川普的美國優先裡面可能是他就是希望...他就是希望美國有製造業"},{"start":6535.029,"end":6552.98,"text":"他們能夠工廠 有工廠能夠重新再開工 讓他們的人民有工作嘛所以這個我老講我們是要小心啦他說的提高關稅的最終目的應該是車啦 美國人有工作機會所以我們第一個人才會不會流過去應該是車啦 車的問題會比較大 電動車啦因為這部分中國去輸出的嘛所以美國應該是都汽車的王國啊"},{"start":6558.723,"end":6559.804,"text":"我昨天問你臺電的這個員工非常辛苦"},{"start":6576.377,"end":6604.962,"text":"他們大台一封天然後去搶修為了我們人民去搶修這個停電那昨天我特別要求特別要求說有兩個事情你們後來做的回覆我們今天把它定下來好不好第一個昨天有提到危險津貼的事情我今天很明確跟葛珀丁說你知道嗎他們冒著生命危險冒著生命危險他們的危險津貼一個小時只有105塊好不好你回去研究把它提高好不好這是第一個第二個有超時工作的問題"},{"start":6606.089,"end":6624.022,"text":"有超時工作的問題有員工跟我講有些超時工作不是就兩天從7-11早上7點到晚上11點有些人連續工作4天這太危險了好不好所以這部分超時工作問題也同時來處理好不好好主席已經站起來了我不要再講話了謝謝委員謝謝張新凱委員部長請回座"},{"start":6631.767,"end":6651.934,"text":"待會鄭正前委員執行之後我們會休息下一位執行請鄭正前委員主席好我想先請一下經濟部郭智輝郭部長經濟部郭部長"},{"start":6653.886,"end":6663.818,"text":"還有我們行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表嚴惠欣嚴副總談判代表然後還有我們陸委會的副主委陸委會副主委"},{"start":6665.543,"end":6679.451,"text":"委員長部長好那個很感謝主席今天特別安排了就是CPTPP相關的一個主題的議題那我想說經濟部在9月份的時候公布了一個狀態就是說我們9月份的外銷訂單高達538億美元那年增率4.6%"},{"start":6684.133,"end":6710.548,"text":"那基本上是熱的連續7個月都正成長那國發會在9月底也發布了經濟景氣燈號是紅燈表示台灣目前的經濟熱度其實是很好的可是我們在這裡面也看到了幾個點就是說在整個資通訊產業當中ICT其實都很不錯可是在傳產的部分的時候感覺就不是這麼一回事像包括那個化學品的部分負8.5%相較於去年"},{"start":6713.47,"end":6732.164,"text":"的同時間然後那個整個塑膠橡膠製品也負1.1%那我們如果看到整個那個整個傳統工業的部分的時候我們中國的傳產指標基本金屬工業基本金屬的部分相較於2021年基期的時候只剩下74.9%"},{"start":6734.125,"end":6760.805,"text":"那化學材料及肥料只有佔74.6那機械設備是86.9汽車及零件到89.4那我為什麼講這個部分就是說除了ICT高科技產業當中的時候一支獨秀其他傳產部分其實坦白說我覺得是衰退感覺有一點明顯那為什麼提到這個部分是因為以目前來說因為我們的整個高科技產業的部分的時候因為有資訊科技協定"},{"start":6762.586,"end":6786.513,"text":"所以它讓臺灣在相關的高科技產業當中的走遍全球大概都還算是可以的雖然川普說要科增大陸關稅60%可能會影響到臺灣相關的產業可是對高科技來說可能還是相當比較穩健的部分那傳產部分可能就會比較吃力那因為今天我們特別提到CPTPP這部分的時候它對於整個傳產的部分我們希望它能夠有一些比較"},{"start":6787.273,"end":6810.768,"text":"更大的一個保障所以我們很希望知道說整個這CPTPP目前整個的進度到底是怎麼一回事那我想說針對這經濟部因為經濟部這件報告裡面很直接講說針對CPTPP的一個統籌的單位是經貿談判辦公室那我們經濟部對於CPTPP這個部分的時候目前有沒有做一個怎麼樣的努力然後有沒有什麼一個分析報告出來"},{"start":6812.897,"end":6838.399,"text":"這個部分我能不能夠請我的國貿署署長跟您報告可以謝謝謝謝委員首先我們有做國內法規的相關的檢視為了要符合CPTPP的高標準所以目前國內的法規都已經符合這個高標準的要求你們覺得現在台灣要加入CPTPP最大的阻力在什麼地方"},{"start":6839.791,"end":6868.041,"text":"因為奧克蘭原則有三大有三個要求第一個就是要我們要符合這個良好的貿易的這個承諾這個部分我們確實都有做到而且最大的困難點在哪裡我想我們要積極的去尋求所有成員對於我們的支持如果而且呢必須來儘速的來成立我們入會的工作OK來這個部分最大的困難點在什麼地方你們經濟部這邊有沒有評估"},{"start":6870.047,"end":6895.219,"text":"有些國家他有他自己的考量所以我們也特別針對這些國家去強化跟他們的互動甚至有做相關的邀訪我想問一下經貿談判辦公室因為我看經貿談判辦公室當中的一個書面資料當中直接表示因為奧克蘭三原則當中的時候針對我們的高標準還有一個表述貿易承諾的部分"},{"start":6895.959,"end":6910.38,"text":"你直接提到的字眼其實是就是所有的那個與會的國家大概都均無一役表示台灣做得很好那既然是這樣的情況之下的時候你覺得我們現在台灣要加入CPTPP最大的阻力在哪裡"},{"start":6911.869,"end":6939.029,"text":"好 謝謝委員的推詢針對這個我們在透過各種方式去接觸的過程確實大家對於我們符合高標準以及有良好的貿易記錄沒有任何的異議沒有任何的異議嗎沒有任何的問題那當然那我們應該走得很順可是我們從2021年申請9月到現在已經進入第4個年頭了因為前半段他們都是在處理英國的入會問題直到今年他們才開始有時間去處理新的成員國"},{"start":6939.87,"end":6960.392,"text":"那新的成員國他們就是在針對這用奧克蘭三原則來做審視那我們結束的過程呢他們特別提到共識絕這個是希望臺灣要特別去努力的部分理解喔因為我在想說臺灣其實也不是第一次加入國際組織包括APEC、WTO都有加入可是當時的時候很多學者專家都覺得當時有一個很大的"},{"start":6962.148,"end":6968.96,"text":"必須要被考慮的點就在中國大陸的一個態度跟角色在CPTPP當中的時候我們是不是也面臨這樣的問題"},{"start":6971.016,"end":6995.997,"text":"我們在接觸的過程當中並沒有任何一個國家特別跟我們提到這樣子的一個概念沒有任何一個國家提到中國大陸的因素是我們現在還進不來的原因是這個樣子嗎因為他們現在也不是成員國阿對就是因為他們不是成員國所以確實沒有國家跟我們提到這個原因而且他們特別還是集中在就是要符合三原則而希望我們特別在共識局這邊加以努力"},{"start":6996.477,"end":7025.004,"text":"可是當然就我們的瞭解當然有些國家跟中國的經貿往來上面確實是互動比較密切可是這些國家不會單純只有因為這個因素在評估這些新成員的入會因為我在想說從過去APEC跟WTO的經驗過程當中的時候大陸的態度確實是影響到我們是不是能夠順利進去的一個很重要的一個點就是副代表對這部分有沒有什麼反對的看法"},{"start":7026.723,"end":7043.591,"text":"我們必須要講說中國確實是現在第二大的世界經濟體所以它跟很多國家有緊密的互動往來但是畢竟現在的國際形勢的狀況是跟以前是不同的所以我們現在所接觸的往來跟這些CPTPP國家"},{"start":7044.711,"end":7072.534,"text":"告訴我們的反應就是希望我們可以透過各種的方式包括我們的實質的經貿交流展現臺灣可以對CPTPP國家的供應鏈上面的貢獻因為你們現在是整個我們在要加入CPTPP當中的一個統籌的一個單位那很多的單位其實都要參與在這當中對於陸委會這邊你有沒有什麼特別的期待就陸委會應該要怎麼去做能夠會有助於我們加入CPTPP"},{"start":7074.518,"end":7098.841,"text":"因為我們現在都是個別在申請的新成員國所以我們基本上新申請國不會去跟其他國家做進一步的溝通這個是大家基本上面的運作規則所以入委會我們當然基本上不會特別去請入委會來協助但是我們當然在過程的專業意見我們也會遵行入委會的意見"},{"start":7099.58,"end":7114.451,"text":"所以你們沒有特別請陸委會在這個部分就兩岸溝通當中的時候能夠有更積極的一個做法基本上是沒有的目前我們沒有特別請陸委會來針對CPTPP的案件來表示意見"},{"start":7115.25,"end":7144.77,"text":"OK 那我會這邊有沒有要特別做一個說明因為我看到我們所有的書面報告當中的時候對於這部分著墨也都很少那副主委這邊可以稍微講一下謝謝委員關注到這個議題那其實我們的立場很明確因為我們一直都是參與國際經貿組織已經有好幾次像剛剛委員講到APEC跟WTO在這個過程當中我們就是看每一個人的條件"},{"start":7145.29,"end":7161.821,"text":"符合條件的話就應該是可以參與那對於中國如果對這個部分有些政治框架的話我們是要表示要據理力爭的OK 那個我這邊特別補充一下就是經貿談判辦公室這邊因為我們要加入CPTPP這個過程當中因為我們在WTO當中其實是雙軌性的一個方式在做處理比方說我們對大陸這邊的一個貿易的一個條件跟其他國家有一些差異"},{"start":7173.288,"end":7197.641,"text":"我們見到CPTPP可能必須要一致化去處理所以對於這樣的問題我們要怎麼去因應請麥唐先生這邊之後再給我一個很詳細的資料然後對於我們過去這幾年我們做了哪些努力也請給我一個書面的資料好 謝謝好 謝謝政經經濟委員請立行官員請回座現在休息6分鐘必要時延長1分鐘"},{"start":7212.639,"end":7214.1,"text":"我國當前經貿情勢分析與跨部會"},{"start":7235.399,"end":7262.101,"text":"不是中華經濟研究院,是國外領域研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是兩界研究院,是"},{"start":7262.261,"end":7276.493,"text":"對,對,對,對,對"},{"start":7280.346,"end":7298.406,"text":"就是你現在所採訪的有限公司的經濟規劃之相關政策作為．暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明、成員國立場分析與跨部會的經濟規劃之相關政策作為．暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明、成員國立場分析與跨部會的經濟規劃之相關政策作為．暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明、成員國立場分析與跨部會的經濟規劃之相關政策"},{"start":7299.307,"end":7308.854,"text":"我國當前經貿情勢分析及如何有效拓展國際經貿空間戰略規劃之相關政策作為．暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明．暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明．暨申請加入CPTPP進度"},{"start":7324.825,"end":7330.988,"text":"就是透過那些政策這樣做的這個默想實施的規劃對,所以對,那但是我們國際的規劃就是它已經所謂的一種規劃了現在的國際經貿分析"},{"start":7342.672,"end":7354.406,"text":"所以接下來就只有完成項目﹚所以現在還沒有報告﹚就是USK要完成一個純粹的認證﹚動作﹚國內法的認證程序﹚那這些動作﹚這一個數據顯示就不剩下"},{"start":7359.452,"end":7368.274,"text":"也就是他可能會在農藥災後上會設一些這個營養的陣容上就是這個程序去發展他對雙邊的問題目前目前還不確定"},{"start":7381.358,"end":7394.644,"text":"我國當前經貿情勢分析及如何有效拓展國際經貿空間戰略規劃之相關政策作為．暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明．暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明．暨申請加入CPTPP進度說明"},{"start":7402.488,"end":7430.734,"text":"有一些管道是在穿梭之路的事實所傾縱的那我們就是希望這些多餘的管道都能實現因為我們經濟CPTPP的規定實際上是在穿梭當地人的中華和社所前面的雙邊的其他兩個是拜登政府的其他的是在拜登政府的但是我們覺得他們的政策上雖然是很順暢的但是他們對於海外土的態度不太一樣要增強更多的雙邊的"},{"start":7431.914,"end":7459.849,"text":"例如農業部我覺得這個營養應該看起來是有高度的供補性所以我們就是會持續透過這些多元的管道希望維持跟傳統的行政院的協議那CPTPP的步驟呢就是你剛剛提到的進步程度部分那我們整立公務小組的這個部分好像是有意義的就是說現在CEP的時間沒有人有人開始整立公務小組嗎"},{"start":7461.77,"end":7482.221,"text":"我們到目前接觸的資訊是好像還沒有提到他們有三個原則他們對每一個新成員都是用這三個原則來審視所以當然每一個國家可能有犧牲經過可能有一些不一而出的這些條件都沒有辦法滿足"},{"start":7482.381,"end":7487.825,"text":"所以我們到目前為止是還沒想像到有哪一個國家已經完全滿足這三個規定"},{"start":7513.302,"end":7528.039,"text":"所以他們會看這些那幾個事情我們有些台商是不是能夠在這三個領域去的他出口大家的貨幣他出口的CPTPP他不是每一個單獨的財源它是他標準的貨幣通常的管理全部都要這樣"},{"start":7625.461,"end":7648.829,"text":"好,請列席官就座好,我們繼續開會,下位執行請鄭天才委員主席、各位委員有請"},{"start":7650.543,"end":7673.57,"text":"我們經濟部部長請經濟部部長還有國發會國發會高副主委部長好那今天這對加入CPTPP這個外交部的報告裡面提到2021年"},{"start":7675.289,"end":7698.244,"text":"9月22號就提出了加入CPTPP的申請已經好幾年了這裡面也提到臺灣必須要符合CPTPP高標準相關的這些規定但是如果我們從這個"},{"start":7704.013,"end":7733.05,"text":"如果我們從這個現行已經在CPTPP主要成員國裡面這些國家我們這樣看的話我不願意念我就不念哪些國家但是那些高標準難道我們不如他們嗎所以這個絕對不是外交部這樣的一個輕描淡寫的"},{"start":7734.489,"end":7759.314,"text":"的一個說法所以這是一個另外一個一定有政治的問題當然這個到底CPTPP我們加入到底對我們有效是好絕對最好的利益還是什麼也有什麼不利的地方以美國川普總統昨天當選的"},{"start":7762.329,"end":7786.444,"text":"他當初就退出啊對不對他有他的考量他有他的一個企業的的一個出身的這個部長你也是企業出身的所以這個我們都必須要去有了這個議題就應該要審慎的去考量當然也許是最好的我不知道好"},{"start":7787.899,"end":7816.71,"text":"國外會的報告裡面提到面對軌跡多變的國際經貿前景及地緣政治風險持續提升確實是應該要去考量然後經濟部的報告裡面也提到這個全球面臨這個惡霧戰爭、中東地緣政治歐美對中國採取關稅措施等挑戰當然你提的是我們沒有不利都很好"},{"start":7818.183,"end":7846.834,"text":"但是因為今天昨天川普當選了這個當你們在寫報告的時候還不知道誰當選也不好寫這個是難免的所以川普在這個選舉期間在7月份提到台灣要付保護費除了現在已經在充夠還要再增加的意思"},{"start":7848.627,"end":7874.917,"text":"他在任內四年他當過總統那年四年我們就美元兩百多億的美元比那個馬政府的八年還多多一倍是這樣的一個四年就兩百多億的美元所以這樣的一個也會造成我們的整個台灣在整個"},{"start":7877.326,"end":7901.825,"text":"有限的這個稅出還要做一些更多的一個調整都會影響都會影響尤其是他在這個訪談裡面特別在專訪裡面還提到晶片還提到晶片部長是不是這樣是的所以這個部分在這樣的一個情勢之下"},{"start":7904.69,"end":7924.363,"text":"因為這是昨天他切實當選了,我們是需要面對這樣的一個問題部長還有國發會都必須要有因應的這些怎麼樣去做一個更宏觀的而且更細緻的去檢討去因應當然了"},{"start":7931.695,"end":7951.94,"text":"最主要的其實就是要兩岸和平兩岸和平的話自然保護會的理由就會減少這是必然的所以部長有時候要勇於"},{"start":7954.946,"end":7983.289,"text":"跟這個決策者當然不是你可以決策的有機會見到賴總統的時候還是要提醒他兩岸的和平所以這個部分部長你的意見如何報告委員這個川普上台以後會不會影響台灣這個申請加入CPTPP沒有沒有不是要問這個不是這個他自己都退出了"},{"start":7984.209,"end":7984.99,"text":"美國對台灣的支持是跨黨派的共識"},{"start":8013.803,"end":8041.595,"text":"美國對台灣的支持支持有很多方式、很多方法但是支持是有沒有這個交換的多還是交換的少這個是一個我們會去努力啦我們會去努力對現有的政府跟未來他川普新組成的這個政府我們會跟他們多溝通部長這很難只有我們"},{"start":8043.027,"end":8064.397,"text":"只有我們怎麼樣去促進兩岸和平他自然那個保護會的時候自然就會就沒有籌碼去講這些所以這個部分這個還是要我們一向是主張兩岸和平我想我們賴總統大概也沒有講說兩岸要去對抗這個"},{"start":8066.53,"end":8086.322,"text":"主張兩岸和平一項就是總統他的這個主張我們也一直在落實這樣子的一個做法這個目前沒有這個方向了這個用詞有時候他的用詞很重要所以這個部分是要去請你去簽的是好這個部長你就還有副主委請回座那個農業部農業部部長這個次長"},{"start":8094.342,"end":8120.088,"text":"這個你的報告裡面也提到這個加入這個CPTPP的話也會有一些影響現在沒有加入就以目前的狀況你也做了分析嘛做了分析而切實加入之後可能將對部分農產品造成影響所以這個部分你也必須要跟把怎麼樣的影響到底多嚴重"},{"start":8121.755,"end":8147.353,"text":"也要跟這個外交部跟相關的部門提到像行政院也要做做這一審詳細的一個說明所以這個部分是一個那川普他都不要加入他已經退出主動退出一定他有他的考量到底是怎麼樣當然不一定跟他一樣我們要以我們自己這個尤其是農業我們畢竟是以農為主"},{"start":8150.615,"end":8176.985,"text":"那另外就是最後主席已經站起來了就是農業部謝謝農業部公告成功長濱漁港後來東和鄉還有這邊的那個花蓮的也公告了漁港的部分但是這個經費那個經費真的是因為整個你們可能還是用以前的那個數額啦能不能再檢討因為現在地方都在反映太少啦"},{"start":8178.289,"end":8192.694,"text":"太少了 趕快檢討好不好是不是能夠再調整好 謝謝委員支持我想所有的農業的議題都謝謝有委員支持那救助的部分我們每年都會來檢討我們會來保持這次就要檢討了我們會納入檢討 謝謝還沒有發嘛 還可以檢討我們會納入檢討 謝謝好 謝謝政經財委員 官員請回座下一位質詢請謝一鳳委員"},{"start":8218.636,"end":8231.403,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請我們經貿辦公室的顏慧欣顏副總在那邊還有我們郭部長經濟部郭部長主席好郭部長你認不認識你旁邊這個美女我今天看到我們經委會來了一個新的美女"},{"start":8249.887,"end":8260,"text":"嚴副總代表我不太認識你不太認識我相信大家都不認識所以特別請他來副總代表我想請問一下現在"},{"start":8267.372,"end":8290.731,"text":"川普總統已經當選了所以這已經不是scenario這是一個事實而川普總統他所說的就是他反對在拜登總統時候所建立的這個印太經濟的架構那如果印太經濟架構未來會不會廢除你覺得有沒有這樣可能性好 謝謝委員的推訊"},{"start":8294.152,"end":8316.537,"text":"就印太經濟架構我們確實有看到川普總統在競選的時候有提到印太經濟架構可能不是他當初所設想的一個政策方向那所以呢如果要依據過去川普總統在第一任的這個經驗他上任之後因為他就對於TPP他確實他就退出了TPP的這樣子的一個"},{"start":8317.436,"end":8340.838,"text":"做法的話當然可能對於印太經濟架構我們不排除或許他會再評估那這個是我們所看到的但是我也要補充的就是實際上印太框架就是Quad這個活動是在川普第一任當總統的時候把它提升到總統層級所以也代表川普總統他是一樣對於印太的這個合作"},{"start":8341.198,"end":8351.048,"text":"是相當重視的所以我相信他對於印太區域的推動不論透過哪一個方面的面向的強化所以你認為他不會廢除這個嗎他當初說要廢除對就是說印太經濟架構本身的內容或許他會再做進一步的檢討那WTO呢他會不會廢除"},{"start":8361.75,"end":8372.039,"text":"就WTO的部分我必須要講的實際上川普總統在第一任的時候也是批評WTO非常多但是WTO他實際上涉及到的現在的會員已經有166個會員所以對美國來說如果他要去"},{"start":8377.123,"end":8395.973,"text":"所謂的對川普總統的意思他要廢除應該他只是在指的是美國是不是要評估退出WTO但是說實在的如果美國退出WTO的話反而是讓其他剩下的其他國家對美國本身是不用遵守WTO承諾未必對美國是最好的一個方向"},{"start":8396.753,"end":8424.582,"text":"所以如果川普他不支持WTO那對於藉由WTO所形成的這個ITA的相關的這樣子的協定會不會有影響經濟部長這就是你的議題了對不對ITA對啊會不會有影響我們請我想是這樣子就是說其實這個全球自由貿易啊"},{"start":8425.427,"end":8441.854,"text":"以此這個是張忠謀董事長在前幾天所講的那是之前就已經倡議這樣事實上我們看到當這個川普上來以後因為他的政策就是讓美國更偉大所以過去的一些思維應該確實是會改變但是國際的狀況我想未來會趨於區域經濟化"},{"start":8450.635,"end":8470.814,"text":"所以區域經濟化我們可以看到像過去幾個地方我們可以明顯的看到歐盟可以看到東南亞國協這些都是屬於區域經濟的部分我個人認為就我所學的我認為未來會走向區域經濟更能夠代替這個所謂的全球自由貿易化"},{"start":8471.656,"end":8497.834,"text":"目前我們出口到美國的現在佔的比重是22%那有很多的部分是在高科技的部分那這個部分未來在川普總統上任之後會不會對於相關的關稅會有所改變這個關稅應該是都會改變但是我們的對策就我剛才也報告過就是說我們的對策其實是利用"},{"start":8498.891,"end":8524.977,"text":"境外、關內這樣子的一個措施我把臺灣的一部分的供應鏈帶到美國去落地生產因為供應鏈集中落地生產它有一個優勢就是說它在logistics上面的cost完全降低彼此供應鏈之間的資源可以快速所以對我們在美國的廠商有非常重大的優勢"},{"start":8526.457,"end":8542.99,"text":"所以是不是未來臺灣的半導體的供應鏈必須變成你整條都要帶到美國去生產是不是也不是說只有必須到美國因為市場在哪裡我們的供應鏈就應該到哪裡去美國、去歐洲"},{"start":8544.582,"end":8569.345,"text":"就要走出去是不是因為這個全球已經沒有辦法因為這個已經打破那個因為這個區域的經濟共盟這個一定會形成的那因為這個地緣政治的關係嘛那包括這個極端氣候的影響所以這個市場已經完全改變所以張忠謀董事長非常的厲害他有先見之明他可以推論到說這個自由貿易已經死了"},{"start":8570.171,"end":8598.697,"text":"所以我個人是遵從這樣的所以臺積電必須要出走這個是市場在哪裡我們就接近市場所以這樣的一個做法我個人認為是正確的所以如果臺積電出走那剛才也有委員問到的就是兩奈米的會不會移到美國去我們有國內有一些科技的管制兩奈米要去的時候最起碼我們1.4奈米要在國內已經是落地生產"},{"start":8599.946,"end":8626.998,"text":"那我們現在1.4奈米有沒有辦法現在還在那個所以沒辦法2奈米我們都還沒生產啊所以2奈米是沒有辦法去不是現在不是現在那Eventually一定會去嘛當然啦那要等到1.4奈米出來的時候才會去這個是我們國家的規定不會去那未來會我要再問一下那個副總代表"},{"start":8632.247,"end":8649.314,"text":"我想要請問喔如果就是說川普上來了他重視的是就是雙邊的這個貿易的這個談判嘛是不是那有沒有可能臺美的FTA有沒有辦法啟動我們會看到確實川普政府比較喜歡走雙邊的路線那目前我們臺灣跟美國之間已經有啟動很多的雙邊的其實這幾年來都已經建立"},{"start":8661.417,"end":8678.186,"text":"所以包括我們的臺美的21世紀倡議EPPD到TTIC都是我們運作良好的雙邊管道那我們會在這個既有的基礎之下希望尋求可以跟川普新政府有更多的往來互動的空間當然我們也不排除有機會如果"},{"start":8681.516,"end":8698.124,"text":"如果我們要重啓FTA的時候他會不會要求台積電的2奈米必須要到美國去生產他可以藉由這個框架是不是在FTA的這個談判的時候會不會有這樣的可能性"},{"start":8699.355,"end":8722.97,"text":"通常如果談FTA的話只會談到關稅、投資保護類這樣的一個概念那所以對於這些產業要如何去移動然後或者要分散他們的布局這個不一定會是在既有的FTA架構之下去談論的意義所以也不會要求台灣改變我們既原有的法令是不是"},{"start":8724.264,"end":8749.598,"text":"改變法令這個當然是雙邊如果有共識的標準之下那會去改變法令但是不必然一定會去改變我們在科技方面的這個法令的要求所以他不一定會但是有可能會去改變是不是就如果是我們雙方講好的特別是按照國際標準所應該要遵循的國內法規的話這個部分當然就會討論是會有檢討的空間好 謝謝"},{"start":8763.186,"end":8763.927,"text":"請李玉玲委員"},{"start":8783.744,"end":8792.191,"text":"謝謝主席請郭部長跟經貿談判代表的嚴副總請嚴副總代表副總談判代表委員好部長我們臺灣是出口導向的這個貿易的這個經濟的模式尤其是我們的GDP有6成都是來自於出口貿易所以我們現在要談的"},{"start":8813.753,"end":8837.368,"text":"這個CPTPP就是非常的重要尤其是我們看到我們妥協了很多的他們的要求像美國我們開放了萊豬的進口也解禁了日本福島的食品就是希望我們的CPTPP能夠更進一步但是現在我們看到了我們提出了申請現在已經幾年了 部長"},{"start":8840.81,"end":8850.101,"text":"應該是三年三年了還沒有正式的進入也沒辦法做一個工作小組那這個原因你知道嗎"},{"start":8851.311,"end":8876.297,"text":"因為他們之前都在審議這個因素審議了3年啦對部長12個會員國我們是屬於共識決的嘛對不對他要不要共識12個會員國都要同意啦那現在的話我們看到3年過去了我們還是沒有那但是我們是出國導向的經濟模式那現在我們碰到了瓶頸就是未來我們要如何去解決我們這個經濟全球經濟的這個模式呢"},{"start":8880.441,"end":8885.287,"text":"我們能積極地我想再努力談判辦公室主導這一個"},{"start":8887.917,"end":8913.189,"text":"這件任務那其他的包括我們經濟部包括其他相關部門外交部等等都很努力在跟這個所謂的會員國因為是共識決所以我們都跟會員國在利用各種國際的這個場域那大家彼此在能夠是部長你講的我們都做了我們經貿代表在那邊我們都做了做了三年了"},{"start":8913.971,"end":8928.407,"text":"哪裏不足哪個國家反對沒有只要聽你講話大家都非常歡迎我們進入在非常歡迎沒有阻礙沒有困難的情況之下三年又過去了你有看到我們的前途光景嗎"},{"start":8929.588,"end":8954.308,"text":"未來大概什麼時候會被審核正式進入呢?至少讓我們可以工作小組有的話工作小組就會組成啊還是沒有那尤其日本你看我們開放了那個福島核災的食品進來了我們也都都已經妥協了讓國人的健康的疑慮我們也都做到了這些我們都吃了"},{"start":8955.561,"end":8983.251,"text":"國人不該吃的也都吃了這種情況之下難道美國沒有幫我們背書一下嗎?像日本也可以幫我們背書一下嗎?都沒有嗎?雖然說我們當時的這個TPP是美國它現在不是CPTPP的會員國但是有美國的背書也就不一樣啦所以你看來自於進口啦我們還要怎麼做才能夠順利進入報告委員這個可能跟美國沒有關係因為美國已經退出了"},{"start":8984.091,"end":8992.739,"text":"推出拜登的時候他也沒有加入現在又是川普上來我想美國會進入CPTPP應該是"},{"start":8996.96,"end":9019.893,"text":"不會了啦 因為他退出的他是我們全球的大國他有跟很多國家有一些貿易的協議嘛所以他如果跟我們背書對我們是有幫助的 對不對那好 那部長沒關係 我就請我們原副總他以為他退出的國家幫我們背書這個在邏輯上面可能會有一點比較勉強啦多多幫我們疏通啦 把我們的障礙給移除掉他都退出了 他不可以幫我們疏通對 也給我們幫忙啊"},{"start":9023.015,"end":9025.619,"text":"我們是不是我們12國叫我們都尋求幫忙阿那好那我請教一下那日本為什麼還沒有跟我們這個非正式的幫我們簽訂這個談這個貿易協定的協商呢"},{"start":9036.431,"end":9053.569,"text":"日本我們都有在努力啦那為什麼還沒有日本是一個比較韓他跟我們關係不是很好嗎為什麼還沒有因為我們通過就像剛才委員你所垂詢的這個福島的這個海產我們也是最近才開放的"},{"start":9054.742,"end":9074.648,"text":"開放很久了沒有今年喔今年開放 今天已經11月了但是我們三年過程都沒有過日本跟我們非常友好嘛所以我們是不是要準備跟他來做這個貿易的協商我們跟日本的貿易也是非常穩健的在進行有進行有談嗎我們的副總代表"},{"start":9083.088,"end":9102.7,"text":"謝謝委員我們實際上跟所有的CPTPP的國家都有透過多邊、雙邊我請問日本有沒有進行非正式的貿易協商我們要講的所謂的非正式貿易協商對日本有沒有我們當然有有那現在為什麼還沒進行"},{"start":9106.465,"end":9132.141,"text":"我們有進行跟他們做在其他的管道上面的一個...為什麼其他管道?不能正式嗎?非正式嗎?的貿易協商?所有的現代的接觸都是非正式的所以跟日本有談?談好了嗎?我們跟所有的CPTPP國家...日本有沒有?你不要...我在問你日本日本是CPTPP國家其中一位,對所以有非正式的貿易協商了?談好了?有接觸過那談了怎麼樣?"},{"start":9134.74,"end":9156.625,"text":"基本上這個就是在增進他們對我們的瞭解然後確保我們確實有我跟日本人這麼友好這麼熟了這個他們的福島核災食品我們也吃了那還有什麼沒有做到的還要怎麼樣還有什麼困難你談的結果有什麼困難在這一點有什麼困難還要我們做什麼還要我們妥協什麼"},{"start":9158.802,"end":9184.054,"text":"跟委員報告就是這些議題基本上日本他完全認為我們是符合高標準也是有良好記錄的都符合對都符合了現在有什麼困難我想我們的唯一的挑戰只是共識決這個部分他請我們要去努力跟各個會員國溝通所以我的意思說要先進行非正式貿易協商嘛對不對所以好部長"},{"start":9185.273,"end":9210.926,"text":"我們現在看到的就是我們都做了一些努力那但是大家都想目前我們跟大陸的關係不太好那所有當然會員國對大陸有所忌憚所以這個雙邊關係之下就沒有辦法來支持我們台灣但是只要一個會員國反對我們就沒辦法進入那我們跟大陸一起申請這個CPTPP是差不多的時間"},{"start":9214.066,"end":9219.491,"text":"如果說大陸這邊還一直有打壓的情況之下我們就會很困難是不是應該是這樣的吧"},{"start":9223.201,"end":9246.743,"text":"應該就如同委員所垂詢的這個狀況是 如果是這種狀況的話我們為了要讓經濟的體制跟我們這個整個市場開放的這個挑戰我們自己要有開創我們的新的經濟貿易的這條路嘛那所以說這個雙邊的FTA我們就必須要積極的來談論是的那這方面我們有努力哪些國家嗎我們都一直在努力哪些國家已經在做的"},{"start":9247.56,"end":9261.601,"text":"我們現在這個在進行的部分那個委員這個部分我在這裡不太好發表了我們是不是簽一個這個MDA然後再來跟你報告對 可以到辦公室報告是嗎"},{"start":9262.335,"end":9280.988,"text":"我可以到辦公室跟你報告那還是要我們抬機密報告如果牽扯到國安的部分就是要機密報告我們部長有慢慢進入狀況了可是我們看到現在連加拿大我們的全鄰的牛肉我們都進口了"},{"start":9281.548,"end":9305.534,"text":"所以加拿大也是我們都可以去談所以本席在這邊希望我們很多的顧忌跟我們的困難點我們必須要想辦法去突破尤其是FTA我們要去努力讓我們在大陸的打壓情況下又沒辦法進入CPTPP的情況之下我們在區域經濟當中的整合部分我們就要找出一個突破點"},{"start":9306.334,"end":9312.536,"text":"不要讓我們成為經濟的一個孤立好不好謝謝 謝謝委員追尋 我們會努力謝謝林議員委員部長 請回座來 下一位質詢請陳昌明委員"},{"start":9343.373,"end":9368.402,"text":"謝謝主席首先有請我們經濟部的郭部長還有我們那個經貿談判公室委員副總委員副總委員好部長好那過去針對台灣加入CPTPP這個議題"},{"start":9370.322,"end":9394.709,"text":"我一共總執行問過5次在委會執行問過14次那加入CPTPP及掐尖之語貿易協定對臺灣尤其傳統產業的影響非常大所有非常關心那本期在108年剛好再有一個聚會"},{"start":9396.667,"end":9418.488,"text":"得到一個消息日本邀請中國大陸加入CPTPP但是那時候跟執政黨也就是民進黨執政的政府報告他們言者沉沉、聽者渺渺我發覺行政部門都沒有放在心上"},{"start":9419.745,"end":9439.852,"text":"結果真的在110年9月16日中國大陸提出申請假日CPTPP我們臺灣在9月20日才馬上更進提出申請我還要特別說一下"},{"start":9442.045,"end":9460.766,"text":"因為我是非常關注CPTPP,但是我是收貸戶。這個情形是怎樣?當時新加坡有人來請託一件事情,剛好裡面有一個成員是新加坡貿易談判的副代表"},{"start":9462.025,"end":9481.818,"text":"他來選我的話是關於收購案、公司法我那個第幾條條我從來沒有噴出來請我開委員會的公聽會我也記者了但是我記者該跟他聊天的話那一年剛好是新加坡當輪值時期我就問他"},{"start":9483.849,"end":9497.083,"text":"說我們台灣加入CPTPP到底怎麼樣他說日本在邀請中國大陸來參加我說沒有邀請台灣他跟我講你們台灣是不是要武力"},{"start":9498.444,"end":9515.593,"text":"我就是因為欠了這個人情我打了一次來拜託一個公聽會我只打三分鐘給部長沒接也沒聽我打給你們府會、國會聯絡組一下我就覺得是這樣的事情結果我被關了45"},{"start":9518.755,"end":9538.408,"text":"四個班內所以這個司法制度完全亂人我都不認識所以我是真的是受災戶所以我今天為什麼對CPTPP我大概都能了解這樣但是我剛剛看到你們在執行的回答的時候那個人"},{"start":9540.666,"end":9562.258,"text":"那個副總談判代表你口才很好邏輯也非常好但是我發覺你地位很顯赫外交部臺灣美國事務委員會的執政委員喔這很大捏是行政院經貿談判的代表但是我覺得你在講話沒實在"},{"start":9564.494,"end":9581.883,"text":"如果我們要加入CPTPP第一個要有公司權才能進入它那個工作小組但是你台灣有成立工作小組有沒有幾個單位有沒有常常開會你告訴我我就知道有沒有"},{"start":9584.841,"end":9607.536,"text":"我現在跟你講那裏面好幾個國家你要去分析我是不要別人啦我看你在說的吞吞吐吐我看你的眼神我有跟他們聯絡就有聯絡連日本說盤肉堅實的友邦我們就沒辦法人說新加坡你也沒辦法人說澳洲也沒辦法人說馬來西亞你也沒辦法人說"},{"start":9609.947,"end":9624.388,"text":"那個比較那邊的國家我就不講了所以你們要他進來不進來我實在講你們一鼓起人會進來遙遙無期因為這裡面有很多政治的角力你們都不敢講"},{"start":9626.489,"end":9649.589,"text":"愛跟義中的政策都有關心你們真的是官員的話有擔當把這個困難講出來讓大家曉得嗎大家在某某乎乎我曉得你們這樣的態度我就不要那麼激進我也不會被關也不會被起訴真的是無妄自在連網我先跟你們提了這一點第二點關於川普當選"},{"start":9652.765,"end":9669.419,"text":"你要記得張忠謀在他運動大會講了兩句一句話自由貿易已死自由貿易已死地緣政治很重要那現在官貿帝國的川普商業要全部加稅我覺得對台灣我們實在應該處變不清"},{"start":9673.649,"end":9692.667,"text":"兵來將擋,誰來處冤?在於那裡但是你要發覺到現在的選舉有兩派的實力跟臺灣高科技有關係一個是比爾蓋茲的勢力一個是馬斯克的實力我不知道你怎麼看,稍去研究一下那整個策略戰法"},{"start":9693.948,"end":9714.882,"text":"我是覺得臺灣有它本身的條件羊毛吃在羊身上只要我們實力夠堅強我們的高科技裡面沒有關係你要怎麼來怎麼來但是那個那個元夫啊我們部長有一個他常常在講的政內關外關外政內你解釋一下"},{"start":9719.127,"end":9740.63,"text":"你要瞭解臺灣的經濟政策你才能講出來不是我看他有瞭解你嗎他的將內將外你跟我解釋一下你不懂好那個謝謝委員的問題我試著來說明我的理解試著不是馬上就解釋"},{"start":9743.425,"end":9768.273,"text":"經內關外我們就是希望我們可以把我們就是前幾百大的這些產業可以拉進來台灣那基本上我們不會去限定他一定要有特別的關稅區而是希望這些強大的投資的產業會進到台灣來跟台灣互相的交流部長我覺得你的idea理想很豐滿現實很骨感"},{"start":9771.107,"end":9782.762,"text":"你要知道你經濟部投資臺灣方案什麼回來方案三大方案裡面南臺灣、臺灣在裡面那我剛剛聽了一個質詢我覺得很重要勢必要講"},{"start":9787.108,"end":9807.126,"text":"我以為你是把臺灣這些關於高科技企業產業放在台積電的附近你要把它工廠過去任何一個產品我跟你講你有拉了整個台積電還有KOWAS的封裝跟測試其他的產業你要拉過去"},{"start":9808.206,"end":9824.89,"text":"那生產的效率沒有?你把台灣的產業拉過去,台灣這邊空這樣我這邊要台灣開一家工廠,日本要開一家工廠,歐洲要開一家工廠,美國要開一家工廠不能這樣招臺、臺灣的,這要企業、工廠企業出來,我想說你這個倉庫,原來你要開工廠"},{"start":9832.469,"end":9859.202,"text":"不要這樣,我告訴你生產規模要大才有競爭力啦到時開工廠到時虧錢啦到國外沒有保障的啦報告委員,你所這個指導的是非常正確我們企不會一下就開工廠沒有經濟規模絕對不會出我們的企業、企業料資我告訴你你有經濟規模我出處理的都一定會參與你如果開了台灣的"},{"start":9861.697,"end":9888.887,"text":"IG產業、電子產業整個帶過去的話我跟你講是一個風險地緣政治我保護我保護澳門誰來保護我們台灣變成什麼人家餐桌上的菜單我跟你說我發覺台灣一點自主能力沒有怎麼不會搖擺一下等一下我靠大陸等一下我靠美國你台灣就有對話我不曉得這個政治這個樣子的話"},{"start":9893.118,"end":9913.332,"text":"實在很感嘆,不要把臺灣玩完,臺灣人真的很努力,有情務的精神。而關於川普當選,免驚免驚,反正肚臟都膝蓋一樣的情形,我們只要存走應對就好,就看你了。"},{"start":9915.939,"end":9944.313,"text":"我覺得多邊貿易很難了啦你要雙邊貿易趕快去完成啦尤其在東南亞我們只要的主力在這個地方啦好不好謝謝謝謝委員來 官員請回座謝謝陳昌明委員語重心長發人 我要跟你語重心長發人深省令人敬佩現在為質詢"},{"start":9949.321,"end":9955.631,"text":"請賴瑞榮委員好謝謝主席先請國部長請經濟部國部長"},{"start":9963.527,"end":9985.81,"text":"部長辛苦了部長我首先先請教一個問題其實綠電是我們未來的重要的一個方向對不對這個經濟部絕對是全力的發展綠電這也是未來的趨勢對不對是我看到最近有一篇報導其實也是跟我這幾年的感觸相當的就是說在發展綠電過程中的時候其實國家的政策"},{"start":9986.571,"end":10014.733,"text":"鼓勵的政策包括甚至短購費率政策其實這個都是正確的在那邊加速但是也很多投入進來可是到了地方執行的時候遇到了很多的問題我看到現在很多的弊案都是幾乎是在地方執行上出了問題甚至遇到很多的綠店的蟑螂他要你就是你要取得土地你要取得所有這些的時候地方政府甚至有說地方的一些議會甚至有一些的黑道人士就介入部長這樣的問題要怎麼做解決"},{"start":10016.909,"end":10034.583,"text":"報告委員我們在這個應該是在10月份的時候這個院長我們行政院院長那就針對這個議題他直接到我們台南那在台南對這個所有的這個媒體都宣布"},{"start":10036.119,"end":10056.209,"text":"未來對綠電的問題他絕不會允許任何的綠電蟑螂或者這些不法的廠商在臺灣再做下去所以他帶著經濟部、法務部、農業部直接到臺南去就這個命題公開的講"},{"start":10058.47,"end":10082.375,"text":"不允許任何不法的行徑再繼續進行下去所以我們建立了一個平台經濟部、法務部跟地方政府我們希望大家可以在這個平台上面任何的不法都請檢舉任何在溝通上的困難透過這個平台大家來解決所以"},{"start":10083.789,"end":10104.121,"text":"也許現在這個外商控訴臺灣發電這個困境我講是昨天的這個媒體在這個報導經濟部也有提出一個非常完整的這個說明這個是所以部長經濟部知道這件事情嘛對不對這樣的狀況在地方上在發生你知道嘛對不對但是我們"},{"start":10106.3,"end":10120.629,"text":"認為只要有不法我們絕對嚴懲我要講的是這個裡面有許多部分確實是現在遇到的一些問題當然有些弊案也已經被抓出來那我希望經濟部站在前端就是應該在制度面上怎麼去做好"},{"start":10121.129,"end":10137.681,"text":"不要讓那個弊端持續的發生因為一來是傷害到了臺灣的綠電的形象國家的整體形象政府的整體形象二方面也是讓這些不孝的人在地方上不斷地用這樣的方式他提到了什麼機關說卡就卡"},{"start":10138.722,"end":10166.128,"text":"講到了什麼毫無道理的所求這是不是事實在我地方上我聽到有許多確實有這樣的狀況每個地方的狀況不一樣但是我認為其實經濟部跟法務部要找到一套制度面去做這個解決把這些阻斷掉之後你才能夠讓有心來推動綠電的這些業者能夠持續的投入在台灣不然往往最後會變成是劣幣組良幣而且往往會讓整個綠電的發展將來遇到很大的一個困境"},{"start":10166.713,"end":10184.595,"text":"是的 謝謝委員的垂詢這一部分我們都在討論那已經設置的辦法我們在這個綠電平台上面都有一些辦法讓業者可以這個非常穩健部長 什麼樣的辦法也不知道再講得更具體一點那我是不是可以請市長跟你報告"},{"start":10186.065,"end":10213.338,"text":"各位報告第一個就是剛提到的所有的程序讓它公開透明化所以要把所有的這些標準定出來所以行政院也要求經濟部跟農業部相關訂定這第一個第二個所有的大型的投資個案我們經濟部成立單一窗口來受理有任何的遇到任何投資的障礙或是投資的困難由我們單一窗口來受理第三個就是打擊綠能蟑螂的犯罪由經濟部跟法務部任何的這些情資我們就送到這個平台裡面去做相關的一個"},{"start":10214.218,"end":10234.987,"text":"偵查、調查、偵查跟處理如果所有的業者的部分在投入這些裡面的他們所遇到的一些困難的時候我認為其實經濟部跟法務部要去介入去了解他們遇到的困難是什麼樣的問題如果他們遇到的困難是遇到這種綠電的蟑螂刻意的惡意去阻撓甚至於恐嚇甚至於去這種威脅的方式的話"},{"start":10237.248,"end":10256.148,"text":"這個經濟部門法務就應該要採取行動我們認為應該主動因為所有有信號投資要做的其實你們也都清楚也都掌握到應該用這種單一窗口方式直接去協助才能夠嚇阻掉這些當這樣的方式更強力嚇阻這些人就不會去利用這個去賺取這些非法的利益這樣才有辦法讓"},{"start":10257.289,"end":10279.771,"text":"整個投資恢復信心同時間讓所有願意來投資這個綠電的人有信心好不好希望部長跟署長持綠我也希望每個月你們的執行狀況也一份報告給我這邊知道好嗎我也希望在綠電上面我們是持續有所進展來讓全世界知道台灣在支持在推動綠電上的一個決心的好不好部長每個月把你們的推行狀況給我一份報告"},{"start":10281.064,"end":10288.743,"text":"是的我們會把這些這個管制考核的這個部分送給這個再來我上不小心先請教一下江署長好不好"},{"start":10293.085,"end":10317.604,"text":"來部長你先休息了謝謝首長我先請教其實我知道因為你過去長期也在美國待了一段時間包括加拿大然後長期在國貿我想問一下這一次的川普的當選對台灣真理上會不會有什麼樣的影響是謝謝委員的垂詢首先因為川普他是比較主張單邊的這個主義所以在貿易的部分應該會對全球都會有受影響"},{"start":10318.445,"end":10330.814,"text":"那另外呢因為他有說之前在競選的期間有表達可能會對全世界的出口到美國的產品會加徵關稅10%的關稅所以如果萬一他實現了他的這個競選的這個這個政見的話其實會對全球出口"},{"start":10341.209,"end":10348.171,"text":"美國都會有受到影響自然也會影響到美國境內相關產品的售價第三點因為他有表達說可能會對中國的產品課徵60%的關稅這個部分我們也在密切的關切當中我們認為說因為現在川普他才宣布當選"},{"start":10365.58,"end":10385.974,"text":"那據這個他實際上任的時候還有一段時間所以我們會利用這個時間積極的來密切的注意川普他新政府他所採取的相關的經貿的政策那台灣有沒有什麼因應之道在面對他過去提出來的這些他的那個萬一他落實了他的那些想法的時候"},{"start":10386.363,"end":10406.418,"text":"我想很重要的話是我們必須強化對美的貿易論述讓美國知道台灣是美國非常重要的供應鏈來源而且台灣跟美國在經貿部分其實在供應鏈部分是互補互利的"},{"start":10406.818,"end":10418.388,"text":"尤其我們出口美國的大部分產品其實都是中間材這些中間材也是給美國的客戶來使用來運用來繼續的製造相關的這個終端產品所以我們必須積極的來強化我們相關的論述首長那這樣"},{"start":10426.474,"end":10448.509,"text":"臺美貿易倡議的部分協定的簽訂的話有沒有辦法在年底前來做生效我們首批協定已經完成在國內的部分我們的法律程序已經完成現在最主要是要看美國的部分對 那美國的部分會在年底前簽署嗎還是會等到美國他必須要提出一個向國會提出報告"},{"start":10449.349,"end":10476.997,"text":"那我們預計在提出報告之後必須要有一段時間來生效所以有可能會到明年嗎這個部分可能要看美國他國內的情形好我們希望持續努力好不好是請持續再努力好謝謝好謝謝代理人委員請回座代理人委員難得那麼準時啊好下位執行請林楚瑩委員"},{"start":10487.134,"end":10490.779,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請經濟部郭部長以及我們陸委會的李副主委"},{"start":10499.127,"end":10522.663,"text":"委員好部長早安你們看午安了好我今天要問的題目因為時間有限我先快速的講完之後再請經濟部跟陸委會來做回應今天是11月7號那麼中國的淘寶以雙11為名義其實在台灣可以說是鋪天蓋地的灑下了廣告那就是淘寶免運但是昨天我在外交委員會之"},{"start":10524.445,"end":10543.463,"text":"質詢國安局的時候就已經講了其實這可能是另外一個會台政策而且是一個養套殺國安局說他會跟經濟部跟相關單位來做聯繫但是我希望在這裡好好的跟經濟部還有陸委會來做一個瞭解到底是撿到便宜還是免費的最貴中國現在因為產能過剩包括他們的經濟下行"},{"start":10547.867,"end":10566.592,"text":"所以很多東西都用補貼的方式送到國外去包括我相信部長非常清楚電動車的議題但是這種養是不是把淘寶的消費者養大然後用降價的策略的方式其實是要打擊國內的其他電商"},{"start":10567.532,"end":10591.741,"text":"淘寶現在在台灣有落地嗎?我們在管理上面經濟部有沒有注意到?那為什麼說是套?因為他可以要我們的個資要我們的交易的所有的資訊還有就是包括我們的信用的相關的付款的資訊所以這是套出我們的個資再加上中國的商品如果一旦進來台灣之後如果有一些爭議沒有落地的話"},{"start":10592.421,"end":10606.002,"text":"到底要如何來保護真正的臺灣消費者的權益最後一個是殺我希望部長還有陸委會注意看現在淘寶按照它的流量來講臺灣是淘寶的第二大市場"},{"start":10607.792,"end":10632.623,"text":"過去中國最喜歡用的方式就是先補貼把所有他們的競爭對手殺光之後再把價格往上拉抬這就是中國慣用的伎倆養套殺而在台灣如果面對中國一直用這種方式做商品的傾銷然後用這種所謂給予恩惠的方式先把台灣"},{"start":10634.939,"end":10649.807,"text":"進內的這些電商打趴之後未來你就變成什麼東西都要仰賴中國所以我們的中小企業有沒有受到影響中小電商有沒有受到影響我希望經濟部跟陸委會能夠研究這個問題好嗎部長報告委員我想您的這個槌尋非常的正確"},{"start":10656.038,"end":10671.877,"text":"那對於這個部分我想這個電商的部分是屬於這個我們會跟這個數位部來合作針對這個命題我想數位部也在強化我國的這個電商的能力了"},{"start":10672.558,"end":10699.164,"text":"那對於這個我們會有什麼樣的影響我想中國東西大概都是價格因為您剛才在講他有補助所以價格上面會相對的低我們當然是幫助台灣的這個廠商提升他的競爭優勢第二個我們來看他有沒有違反我們的這個商業的這個規範如果有的話我們就禁止他在台灣做這個promotion"},{"start":10699.304,"end":10714.639,"text":"包括他在現在的捷運啊在公車站啊或者是其他的這種交通大叔運輸工具上面的廣告那這個部分到底這種跨境電商沒有落地台灣可不可以這樣打廣告我也希望經濟部跟陸委會去查好嗎然後給我一份報告因為"},{"start":10717.682,"end":10734.063,"text":"外委會的委員時間比較有限那我也不期待說部長現在馬上但是我希望這樣的問題能夠成為包括拓寶要不然你就落地阿他為什麼不能落地因為他有中資的成分在裡面嘛因為他有黨政軍在裡面嘛對不對來陸委會"},{"start":10737.386,"end":10754.978,"text":"委員我們也有注意到這個問題那這個也涉及到我們對陸資的管理那我們會會同相關單位來積極處理這件事情好可不可以給我一個時間點主席是不是可以請就是他們給我一個報告好請提供報告看委員需要多久時間你們多久時間可以出來"},{"start":10756.854,"end":10757.554,"text":"下位執行請陳培宇委員"},{"start":10782.756,"end":10795.271,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請經貿談判辦公室還有經濟部經貿辦經濟部還有外交部經濟部來郭部長外交部吳次長好謝謝主席"},{"start":10800.458,"end":10800.698,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10819.278,"end":10831.657,"text":"可以讓我們相關產業界的朋友們不要那麼害怕跟擔心那我們知道其實CPTPP這件事情可能有另外一個變數是來自於中國想要更積極的加入CPTPP就你們目前掌握到的訊息跟資訊"},{"start":10834.008,"end":10855.801,"text":"中國加入這個CPTPP我想他應該是不會很快因為這裡面有一些有三大原則在那三大原則裡面大概他有兩個原則是不是符合高標準這些他都應該沒有一致的看法所以我判斷他是沒有那麼快"},{"start":10856.201,"end":10878.556,"text":"部長你講這一段我覺得大家會比較有信心因為你剛剛的表情非常有信心而且你來自業界所以我們目前就先相信你的判斷可是我覺得因為其實在野黨的委員都一直說我們不能只有靠近美國不能只有跟美國友好好像提醒我們雞蛋不要都放在同一個籃子裡這個論述我相信來自產業界的你也可以理解那我們回過來看"},{"start":10879.937,"end":10901.405,"text":"因為川普的當選對大家的那個擔心我想我就不再多說時間有限可是我們看到因為英國如果期盼英國完成加入CPTPP之後可以有更具體的行動支持台灣那你怎麼看你剛剛點評了關於中國的部分那部長你怎麼看英國的部分讓我們台灣的產業界會相信自己會有另外的好朋友繼續支持我們"},{"start":10902.318,"end":10929.265,"text":"我相信英國應該會繼續支持我們臺灣你也很有信心因為歐洲的這個他們的思維剛才我想那個吳次長他也有說過沒錯沒錯所以他們應該會支持臺灣所以你一樣充滿了信心然後會以這個信心帶領臺灣的產業界往這裡走去我們一定增強我們臺灣這個產業的競爭力我相信有非常多人需要部長您這樣的承諾"},{"start":10930.365,"end":10953.912,"text":"把這樣的承諾轉換在政策作為上我相信會讓國人更有信心因為不是只有老闆們要擔心所有領薪水的員工們其實更擔心我相信部長你一定非常的清楚謝謝委員是我們來看一下最後CPTPP這個協定如果我們回到馬來西亞來看關於我們台灣跟東南亞的合作目前我們看到你們相關的報告裡面談到教育服務業、健康相關服務業"},{"start":10955.513,"end":10979.335,"text":"視聽服務業還有電子商務服務業上面這個發展這幾項服務業目前都跟馬來西亞還有文萊的市場准入有關那先不管臺灣什麼時候可以順入加入CPTPP目前我們在這幾項服務上跟東南亞國家推動的投資保障方面目前有沒有您認為可以更多加強合作的力道或者是方法我們想要聽聽看部長您的意見"},{"start":10981.396,"end":10997.523,"text":"我看了這個四個項目我想這個對台灣來講都是非常有能力來協助然後進入這個馬來西亞的這個領域畢竟這個譬如說教育服務業台灣的教育服務是做得非常好台灣有160幾家大學"},{"start":10998.183,"end":11022.554,"text":"所以我們都歡迎世界的人到臺灣來念這個大學包括馬來西亞的僑外生都來臺灣念大學部長您剛這個舉例非常的貼切而且可能也可以幫忙協助臺灣的公私立大學解決少子女化的困境但是經濟部的角色這樣的承諾很棒但有沒有機會經濟部更主動的跟教育部展開跨部會的溝通協助這些"},{"start":11023.815,"end":11034.61,"text":"我們跟那個委員報告我們經濟部有一個二加四計畫也就是說來台灣念兩年的書在台灣工作四年念兩年的書是不用錢的這個是由國家給這個學雜費但是他的這個生活費是由經濟部給的"},{"start":11039.517,"end":11062.905,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們聽到部長相關的承諾我們辦公室也會針對相關教育或者是我今天舉的這些例子積極再跟經濟部討論也希望後續可以看到更多協助國內產業發展突破這個困境好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝陳培文議員精準掌握發言時間謝謝主席謝謝 非常感謝好 部長請回座下一位質詢請黃仁委員"},{"start":11074.437,"end":11075.579,"text":"有請經濟部部長及農業部次長"},{"start":11086.464,"end":11109.534,"text":"委員好你好錫光三人要三把火要新的政策新的改革那這一次我們康瑞這個強力的颱風造成了我們花東地區第一個受害者就是臺東長濱因為他的颱風眼剛好就在那個地方那造成了農漁船、農漁業"},{"start":11113.456,"end":11137.803,"text":"的災害那我第一時間也有打電話跟農業部那第一時間農業部也馬上行文到了我們這個東海岸能夠趕快搶救補助那這個方案當然是好事這個讓他們安定也放心所以你們從11月5號到11月13號這麼短的時間的申請案"},{"start":11143.103,"end":11166.415,"text":"那第二個所申請的補助你們引用了舊法所以造成我們很多的農損包含漁船的損害我們應該先改革制定一個新的方案第一個如果辦損要如何的給他們給予他們的一些損害的賠償這個補助第二個全損"},{"start":11167.768,"end":11188.789,"text":"所以現在你們引用舊法所以也造成我們移民對政府的憤怒為什麼?物價指數都上漲了物價指數上漲結果卻沒有給他們予以調整補助的方案造成民怨第二個我們講一個台電"},{"start":11190.856,"end":11201.363,"text":"臺電我們動用了430名全力投入搶修有關於在全臺裡面臺電統計截至12月2號的下午全臺呈停電負有95萬點7其中92.9萬戶已修復但修復亦9乘7當然剩下的2.7萬尚未復電"},{"start":11217.812,"end":11238.209,"text":"是主要集中在花林、花東地區的這個部分縣市山區本席感謝我們臺電在第一線搶修的作業人員的辛勞但請問為什麼花東地區及部分山區這麼久都無法復的原因所以根據在"},{"start":11239.47,"end":11256.875,"text":"十二月二號下午三點造成全台停電負由九四五萬七千零六十一負其中九四二萬九千兩百八十負已修復但修復九成七兩萬另外兩萬七千負尚未負電是在"},{"start":11257.845,"end":11283.67,"text":"前幾天的事情不是現在的數據是在前三天以前的數據主要集中就在花蓮、臺東這個地方但是為什麼臺電在搶修的過程裡面是否考慮結合民間的力量一起搶修這樣的話才會負電力才會提高這是一個本席的建議那第二個我們農業部"},{"start":11285.55,"end":11304.74,"text":"你們過去引用的這一些補助的辦法造成我們很多現在的農損的農民包含漁船的漁民對你們農業部的不滿而且經過了幾年你們的舊法到現在都還沒有做一個修正"},{"start":11306.676,"end":11334.691,"text":"請問一下經濟部還有我們農業部你們有什麼改進的方法、方案報告委員你剛才講那個臺電的事情我們臺電大概這一次因為花蓮臺東在山區的部分因為那個道路那個我們的那個車上不去那有一些樹倒塌了所以我們的救災人員沒有辦法馬上很快的時間到達不過我們所有山區的這個電都在48小時裡面"},{"start":11336.272,"end":11360.484,"text":"主席給我一分鐘最後我請農業部農業部發農業部的部分我跟委員報告我跟總統一起去勘栽總統有講這些都要改進好謝謝希望盡速改進以能夠讓我們的農人得到更多的這樣的一個保障讓他們的損失降低到最低好不好這是最明確的好謝謝謝謝黃總委員謝謝"},{"start":11363.746,"end":11368.811,"text":"謝謝黃委員,我是一視同仁好,請官員請回座下一位執行請馬文君委員謝謝主席,麻煩請經濟部國部長還有國發會副主委國發會高副主委"},{"start":11394.444,"end":11416.522,"text":"首先我是不是先請教國發會副主委我們在嘉義無人機園區的部分我們大概要購地還有包括相關的經費有編了68億多因為我們在國防的預算上面有看到那這個部分是不是由國發會出的錢然後給軍備局然後再交給中科院執行是嗎"},{"start":11417.442,"end":11440.747,"text":"對 我跟委員報告是嗎 回答這個這個案子是由經濟部來主責那有分軍用的跟那個沒關係 你告訴我現在68億多是不是由國發會出的錢應該是 基本上它要不是公建就是科技預算不會由國發會來出看有什麼預算是有什麼預算不好意思 我不知道因為是經濟部好 那不然請部長好了好 謝謝"},{"start":11443.408,"end":11448.992,"text":"報告委員我們現在這個無人機的部分嘛是不是對無人機的部分大概是分…園區、嘉義園區就是我們現在有變我們現在有一個部分要買地然後還有包括廠房什麼這些的經費有編了一筆68億多因為就國防部他們給我們的資訊是說有國發會出的錢那剛剛顯然國發會也不知道這個部分那這一筆錢是哪裡出的這一筆錢是因為我們在這個嘉義啊"},{"start":11473.251,"end":11482.311,"text":"要設置兩個我知道我知道部長我說的是誰出的錢可能是公建的預算公共建設的預算公共建設由哪裡出來"},{"start":11483.632,"end":11499.321,"text":"就是公共建設的部分出的錢我們經濟部跟國科會吧一起出的錢68億多這個我還要再了解一下那麻煩確認以後再給本席相關的資料那我接下來請部長請教部長因為您來自業界就我們臺灣整體的包括產業園區、科學園區或者其他發展的各種園區"},{"start":11508.687,"end":11516.274,"text":"有沒有哪一個部分這些園區是由政府出錢買地、出錢蓋廠房、出錢蓋廠棚甚至出錢蓋測試的廠房還有出錢去買測試的儀器跟裝備台灣目前有沒有哪一個產業園區是這樣子就我所了解的科學園區"},{"start":11533.757,"end":11554.543,"text":"就是地不能賣就是政府的地對那是租的有些啦廠房標準廠房也是政府蓋的哪裡標準的廠房哪裡比如說哪一個新竹科學院新竹科學院所有的廠房所有的廠房不是所有的廠房標準廠房所以你現在這一個是所有的都是政府要把它蓋好喔"},{"start":11555.143,"end":11557.704,"text":"我現在講的是說有沒有哪一個是所有都是政府出錢幫他買地蓋廠房有沒有沒有沒有嘛好那因為就這個部分嘉義無人機本席要在這裡強調其實非常認同我們這一次可以藉由去紅色供應鏈可以參與這個包括美國或者其他世界國家的接軌去發展無人機的產業鏈本席非常認同可是"},{"start":11583.993,"end":11601.719,"text":"我們很擔心在這個過程當中我們的做法會是亞苗助長或者就是他已經奠定了未來可能不太會成功的一個這樣子的因子所以我特別提出來因為你來自業界如果用這樣的方法時間的關係像我舉一個今天農業部也在場農業部過去曾經為了要讓我們的青農可以有發展的機會"},{"start":11609.741,"end":11621.492,"text":"他在整個台塘的園區租了大概將近百公頃的土地那時候種植香蕉請了專業的人士有很多的植物醫生也好很多專業的人去教他們種香蕉那時候每個月還給他薪資"},{"start":11626.357,"end":11630.178,"text":"賺的錢是歸他們可是賠錢就太農發去吸收到最後不但血本無歸而且賠了很多錢甚至還毀了我們的整個農業包括那幾年香蕉的收入還有它的產值都非常非常的差因為它不用承擔責任今天如果我們台灣要發展這樣子的一個無人機的產業"},{"start":11650.163,"end":11669.213,"text":"部長您是來自業界我相信您大概也知道說我們會擔心的是什麼我們贊成可是你不要用政府的錢讓大家這些對象會是誰所有人都可以來參與嗎那這樣子會不會對我們的這個整個產業造成影響這個部分部長你有什麼看法我們會記取那個委員槌尋的這個經驗"},{"start":11672.615,"end":11692.207,"text":"就這個部分因為包括那時候香蕉很多它大概都是變成甚至是垃圾它不是當飼料而已所以我們希望它要成功的話可以讓它有機會可以做到最好的程度就這個部分是不是部長可以提供給本席一個相關的資料"},{"start":11695.029,"end":11710.942,"text":"主席讓我講完好不好主席你讓我講完我請他提供資料而已部長麻煩你提供相關的資料給本席就你們的分析為什麼這樣做是可行的還有他的利弊得失好不好好謝謝好請回座本席主持會一向公正一視同仁而且請你尊重主席尊重本委會"},{"start":11730.981,"end":11751.879,"text":"來 現位委員應當是會很準時的這位委員是非常模範的來 請戴思寶委員謝謝主席 各位先進有請經貿辦的副總代表閻副總代表還有經濟部的郭部長還有農業部的杜次長國會的副組委好不好 幾位掌管理層"},{"start":11760.916,"end":11761.679,"text":"我先請教經貿辦的了"},{"start":11764.738,"end":11792.055,"text":"這個現在CPTPP啊我們每天在講甚至於在上一次這個萊豬的公投的時候還有我們的外交部的長官啊還說啊加入CPTPP這個吃了萊豬可以加入CPTPP啊這個吃了日本核食可以加入CPTPP啊結果都吃了都喝了結果什麼都沒有你們跟我們講現在進度怎麼樣有沒有工作小組請問你有沒有工作小組"},{"start":11793.587,"end":11798.55,"text":"為什麼英國跟我們同時間申請英國已經加入啦阿台灣咕咕咕阿 什麼都沒有阿 公批幾波"},{"start":11821.418,"end":11842.133,"text":"這個講起來是很讓人生氣阿阿現在來說也是說CPTPP多重要就多重要阿結果什麼進度都沒有前面的兩年實際上CPTPP的成員都在處理英國的入會阿對英國為什麼就可以呢我們同時間送件的呢請問你是不是中國大陸的台阿 有嗎"},{"start":11844.07,"end":11860.228,"text":"現在這些成員他們只是在用三個原則在判斷所以都沒有嘛那川普當選以後大家都知道啦那更困難啦因為他原來TPP的時候他說要退出啦我們都很清楚啊來我請教部長啊請教部長啊是"},{"start":11865.72,"end":11894.691,"text":"你是說中國的問題?先請教那個副總代表好了加入CPTPP我們的整個關稅可以省多少?關稅可以省多少?如果加入的話我們的關稅?對,不是到會員國、其他國家關稅可以省多少?你也不知道,來這裡都沒準備好不好請這部長來,先你才知道,省力人"},{"start":11897.078,"end":11913.89,"text":"關稅可以省多少?關稅應該不是這個最主要的目的啦當然是主要目的阿 怎麼不是呢?如果是CPTPP應該就是最惠國的關稅嘛對阿 就是最惠國關稅 彼此之間省阿我就很具體的問你一個東西啦請問你現在我們的進口車的關稅多少?幾%?請問 部長 國務部長進口車的關稅多少?"},{"start":11921.297,"end":11944.74,"text":"我們大概CPTPP的國家現在有15%的產品需要繳納關稅目前大概都是在石化、鋼鐵、金屬、紡織等產業那這些大部分都是在越南、日本跟墨西哥的市場我時間因為馬上被主席控制了你跟我講一個東西現在的進口車的關稅多少"},{"start":11947.484,"end":11956.166,"text":"進口車的關稅是17%日本零關稅美國2.5%我就問部長為了要我們這個能夠來拖一把加入CPTPP請問加入CPTPP是好的嗎對不對好不好我沒有這方面的專業"},{"start":11977.469,"end":12000.296,"text":"好不好這個經濟部長這樣那我就問你你要不要主張我們降進口車的關稅來幫忙幫一把可以讓我們國家比較順利的加入CPTPP可以這樣講嗎任何幫助國家加入CPTPP的產業我們都盡全力來協助"},{"start":12001.676,"end":12029.686,"text":"就包括進口車的所有的產業只要能夠讓我們加入CPTPP我們都盡全力來扶持好啦主席站起來我不要浪費他時間謝謝委員謝謝大使法委員精準的發言謝謝啊那官員請回座所以我自己一直認為啊遵守會議發言時間是國會議員基本的素養主持會議公正也是主席該做的事情"},{"start":12030.97,"end":12046.104,"text":"我一向貫徹我希望說各位同仁能夠尊重主席尊重其他八月委員的權益也讓會議能夠順利來進行好 我們繼續質詢李昆辰李昆辰李昆辰不在現在會質詢請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":12064.319,"end":12089.421,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長請郭部長委員好部長好再請教部長一下現在我們新住民跟移工也是成為我們臺灣經濟的一部分所以說是無法"},{"start":12091.487,"end":12116.888,"text":"缺失的知識請問部長新住民移工的族群合作發展還有就是具有外國的特色還有就是結合在地發展的產業還有經濟所以有沒有什麼經費或者補助或者協助這樣子的增加地方的產業的規劃嗎"},{"start":12119.721,"end":12134.473,"text":"報告委員我們現在經濟部有推動很多的計畫在幫助這個地方的產業包括中小微的企業那我們在推動的過程裡面包括我們推動數位化"},{"start":12136.57,"end":12150.724,"text":"推動AI、推動低碳化這些都是有經費在輔助這些中小微的企業那麼對於這個您所垂詢的這個新住民的這部分我們都是一視同仁"},{"start":12151.618,"end":12170.776,"text":"那另外一個就是說我們協助這個是文化上面的這個溝通跟差異的時候經濟部現在因為在推動剛才所講的這個AI的人員的訓練所以我們現在引進在所有世界上所有的橋外生"},{"start":12171.94,"end":12192.575,"text":"就是新住民將來的新住民的這些來頭橋外生來台灣讀書兩年工作四年那麼讀書的這個兩年呢這個費用由國家來支出這包括學費雜費生活的費用生活的費用由經濟部來承攬"},{"start":12194.865,"end":12214.241,"text":"經濟部來承攬所以他來讀書其實是不用花自己的錢這個是我們部長就講的是進階的啦但是針對就是在地創生在地創生的話我們也希望說沒有限任何的族群不會"},{"start":12215.182,"end":12226.273,"text":"但是你知道我們台灣在就是不要說其他國家東南亞在台灣不管是新住民或者投資移民有多少人嗎"},{"start":12229.685,"end":12246.774,"text":"這一部分我沒有研究對 所以這個部分的話我們有沒有要重視剛才你說中小企業輔導但是中小企業輔導有沒有包含就是新住民在台灣登記營業的輔導目前為止是沒有"},{"start":12251.676,"end":12256.299,"text":"針對就是在這邊的他們有登記營業他們有在台灣已經創業的輔導這個部分我們希望我們經濟部這邊是不是可以建立一個新住民中小企業的輔導針對他們在台灣創業不容易所以我們希望說經濟部這邊是不是有一個方案"},{"start":12274.588,"end":12300.996,"text":"有一個團隊針對就是新住民或來台灣就是他們來去創業因為現在以前是有身份證他們才能登記營業但是現在呢只要拿到台灣居留證他們都可以去登記營業因為在疫情過後我們政府很有善希望他們是合法合規所以針對這一塊的話"},{"start":12303.138,"end":12313.61,"text":"以臺中來說就有超過300多家但是呢創業不容易但是經營更難所以我們希望我們經濟部這邊是不是有一個團隊有一個規劃有一筆經費為了他們來去輔導對新住民在臺灣創業更有幫助"},{"start":12322.52,"end":12349.291,"text":"好的 我們回去會參考 謝謝部長希望部長往這個方面就幫助到跟不同族群的人 好的謝謝麥玉珍委員精準的諮詢 謝謝好 請官員請回座離會議還有三分多鐘啊我左判右判 一判再判還判不到人但會議還是要走到12點"},{"start":12352.062,"end":12379.019,"text":"忠孝斌、忠孝斌、忠孝斌不在洪洪海、洪洪海、洪洪海不在邱志偉在蔡宇、蔡宇、蔡宇不在蘇曉慧、蘇曉慧、蘇曉慧不在林大甫、林大甫、林大甫不在陳冠霖、陳冠霖、陳冠霖不在賴慧媛、賴慧媛、賴慧媛不在黃建斌、黃建斌、黃建斌不在"},{"start":12381.089,"end":12409.412,"text":"岳英之岳英之不在林倩琦林倩琦林倩琦不在主席在但是沒有人當主席也沒辦法質詢啊這個部長我這個一堆資料各位歷史官不用了我準備了一大堆資料想要質詢但是按於一次規則你沒有主席啊我不能上來質詢所以今天質詢改為素面"},{"start":12412.591,"end":12435.644,"text":"任期發言委員除不在場之外,區域發言完畢,訓導結束委員張家俊、林德福以及主席所提書面質詢我們列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及位及答案部分請相關單位一周內以書面答案並複製本位本日議程處理完畢,現在上位"},{"start":12445.402,"end":12446.522,"text":"需要跟上尉討論我一直在問你說"},{"start":12469.873,"end":12474.076,"text":"所以他是侯孟楷後面嗎?我聽到侯孟楷我就一直懷疑他"},{"start":12501.701,"end":12504.87,"text":"本期視頻到此為止,感謝收看。"}]}},{"id":"16238","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16238","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d53a1fc3a982fb612ae17401902c90994083084566cc2bdb40c8bf49db0f492cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-07T08:31:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-07T13:17:00+08:00","duration":17142,"影片長度":"04:45:42","委員發言時間":"08:31:18 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應用。第4在強化校園管制本部與督導各級學校前面設置明顯禁儀標示並透過跨處式合作以主動"},{"start":2154.137,"end":2174.597,"text":"尋查、抽查、欠阻校園違規需疑行為其次請學校訂定校園禁於管理規範將電子煙納入管理禁止教職員工攜帶使用且每學年實地到校輔導督導學校落實危害防制工作令對於"},{"start":2175.738,"end":2197.128,"text":"稀疑者積極辦理介於教育提供介於資源與輔導避免其再繼續使用電子煙防止入侵校園本部已含請各級學校與查獲學生攜帶或使用電子煙或發現校園周圍有販售情形時應儘速通報衛生機關查處如懷疑電子煙"},{"start":2202.55,"end":2220.492,"text":"應由含有毒品除應至校安中心網站通報外．並應啟動防制學生藥物濫用三局預防策略及加強警政聯繫以防制毒品利用電子煙進入學校危害教職員工身的健康安全"},{"start":2222.371,"end":2237.647,"text":"在經濟方面．以發展分離與創新之教學支援．我們持續鼓勵老師發展危害防制分離教材教案．針對不同教育階段．學生發展適當的一個"},{"start":2239.543,"end":2262.113,"text":"陰害防制的一個教材教案．辦理創新教學方案的選拔跟獎勵．提高學生學習動機．令收集學校實務上常見問題．以相關宣導資源．並邀請學者專家提出具體做法．滾動修正危害防制工作指引．提供學校具實行"},{"start":2265.141,"end":2286.934,"text":"實施多元教育宣導本部將持續督導學校透過教學、衛生教育、介於教育、人員培訓等活動連結校內行政、教學單位、學生社團等單位共同合作並加強應用新媒體進行宣導以支持無陰害校園"},{"start":2290.881,"end":2314.699,"text":"3.強化校園管制政策及支持計劃,督導學校制定適當懲處規定,加強巡查及裝置科技監控設備,設立匿名舉報機制,辦理介於服務及提供心理輔導與支持等,以維護師生之健康安全。4.結合社區"},{"start":2315.72,"end":2324.712,"text":"家庭及學學資源、加強年節家長會、校園周圍之社區團體、志工、商家及"},{"start":2325.97,"end":2349.492,"text":"林里長等社區及家庭資源協助欠儲及查詢工作實現無疑校園、無疑社區及無疑人行道令持續了解各級學校落實校園進一環境維護工作之執行情形與困難以提升危害防制實施輔導效益五、跨部會共同協力合作"},{"start":2351.104,"end":2362.542,"text":"本部將邀請相關部會合作加強電子煙之查緝及電子煙廣告之稽查並建構叫警合作安全網絡,減少電子煙進入校園的機會。最後"},{"start":2367.526,"end":2384.505,"text":"學校是培養學生建立距離緩於失能態度與行為的重要場所本部將持續推動校園危害防制工作積極強化各級學校防制措施適時學請衛生單位入校稽查"},{"start":2386.047,"end":2411.874,"text":"學校、師長與家長、中央與地方、政府與民間通力合作、跨部會、連結查處源頭從家庭、學校到社區共同阻絕遺害營造校園無疑的健康環境、奠定師生健康基礎及提升生活品質以上報告,敬請各位委員指教。謝謝好,謝謝鄭部長的口頭報告"},{"start":2414.246,"end":2417.85,"text":"接下來我們有請衛福部國建署賈副署長進行報告報告時間4分鐘"},{"start":2422.975,"end":2433.301,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生們大家早安衛生福利部國民健康署就今天的電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討計畫提出專題報告也請各位委員不吝指教我稍微說明一下我們的背景為強化保護我們各階段的兒少健康所以我們煙害防治法已於112年3月22"},{"start":2447.409,"end":2455.772,"text":"二號已經修正實施在法裡面的依法第15條第一項第二款規定是任何人不得製造、輸入、販賣、供應或展示或廣告類煙瓶及其組合原件並在第15條第二項規定任何人不得使用類煙瓶這個意思就是全面禁用電子煙的類煙瓶我們期望透過跨部會的合作來避免我們青少年使用我們的電子煙"},{"start":2477.419,"end":2489.269,"text":"所以在電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制策略可以從四個方向來跟委員做說明第一個是強化跨部會的合作首先我們配合教育部的校園煙害防制實施計畫嚴禁教職員生攜帶及使用煙品"},{"start":2494.814,"end":2503.216,"text":"電子煙跟加熱煙如果有學生使用電子煙就會轉請我們縣市地方衛生局入校進行查處那另外一個也是配合教育部跟警政單位加強稽查校園周邊違法泛煙的狀況那輔導學校周邊的商家禁止販售煙品給未滿20歲的我們的國人"},{"start":2520.06,"end":2528.702,"text":"那我們也委託了這個消基會執行專家實地考核跟委員報告．最近兩次的實地訪查．172間學校．有12間學校發現有淹地．其實它的合格率有92.4．所以我們會繼續跟校園來合作．怎麼樣在我們的校園來做全面無淹校園的推動"},{"start":2541.805,"end":2548.629,"text":"在提升青少年危害防制勢能的部分,國民健康署也委託各式素材來提供教育部在進行校園的這些危害防制上作為推廣的教學資源"},{"start":2563.115,"end":2580.311,"text":"那這些素材跟更多的素材在我們國民健康署的健康99網站官方網站隨時可以取得期望透過更多的這些素材來幫忙我們青少年危害防制的勢能的提升第三個叫多元的戒煙服務根據國際實證青少年使用這個臨床"},{"start":2584.274,"end":2589.896,"text":"臨床接驗用藥還缺更多的實證來支撐所以青少年的接驗需要透過接驗衛教、諮商跟接驗班來幫助他所以我們全國有近3000多家的合約醫事機構可以協助我們的青少年來做接驗那我們也提供了0800 6363的服務專線來幫忙"},{"start":2605.501,"end":2618.49,"text":"最後一個是我們的監測跟調查這大家很關心的我們的指煙的吸食率110年的調查結果是從97年的7.8降至110年的2.2那高中職生是96年的14.8降至110年的7.2那但是電子煙的使用在國中生是有107年的1.9%上升到110年的3.9高中職使用電子煙則是從3.4%上升到8.8"},{"start":2636.361,"end":2646.784,"text":"以上是供給各委員來做參考我們也期待大院跟各委員會的指導跟監督我們表示我們至高的熱忱也期待跨部會合作跟委員的指導謝謝"},{"start":2675.458,"end":2689.44,"text":"就電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討．代表本部列席報告．並備質詢．除書面報告之外．要口頭報告如下．請各位委員指教"},{"start":2691.27,"end":2705.881,"text":"本部就電子煙參入毒品的防制作為在查緝面。第一個,跨境、跨機關合作,建立通報機制,強化校園要求的查緝,避免販毒組織及網絡入侵校園以維護校園的純淨。第二個,"},{"start":2711.465,"end":2738.337,"text":"深化安基企圖專案落實溯源斷根的目標本部就所屬的臺高前屬統籌六大企圖系統通力合作從斷絕供給抑制需求兩方面壓制毒品的犯罪以防禦電子煙參入新興毒品入侵校園及延伸社會的危害事件第三運用科技辦案掃蕩"},{"start":2740.058,"end":2760.393,"text":"網路毒品交易第4強力查緝權力阻斷供應管道第5加強邊境的防堵深化、跨境情資交流而在法制面則修改特定營業場所執行毒品防制措施辦法本辦法將電子遊戲產業及"},{"start":2764.216,"end":2787.837,"text":"資訊休閒業納入規範,要求特定營業場所落實毒品防治相關措施及通報的義務。第二,就近期參入電子煙適用延伸社會危害事件的依托密集類毒品嚴厲從三級毒品提升到第二級毒品,而在宣導面獎勵或結合地方政府、民間團體"},{"start":2789.298,"end":2794.543,"text":"但以反堵宣導提升民眾藥物濫用及劇毒防堵的資本"},{"start":2797.039,"end":2820.017,"text":"持續製作反讀宣導導影片．在各式的透過平台及廣告通路播放．強化反讀宣導的效益整合政府部門反讀的資源．建置本部反讀大本營網站．以本部會持續的則有臺高檢署強力要求各企圖單位加強查緝"},{"start":2821.838,"end":2843.094,"text":"另外加強校園及社區宣導與防渡此類新興毒品侵入校園社區維護校園的純淨、國人健康、建立無毒的家園以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝郭司長的口頭報告那接下來我們有請財政部關務署陳副署長進行報告報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":2855.746,"end":2868.018,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好我是財政部關務署陳世豐今天貴委員會安排就電子煙侵入校園危害青少年防制檢討進行專案報告"},{"start":2871.261,"end":2893.812,"text":"現在就我們本署執掌的一個主要事項報告如下第一個邊境的一個所謂的邊境安全這個部分是海關的一個工作的一個重點海關就運用高科技的這個智慧查緝工具還有我們協同我們邊境的主管機關衛福部這邊的一個同仁還有其他查緝機關積極在邊境來嚴格查緝這個走私的這些電子煙品"},{"start":2898.214,"end":2926.388,"text":"那第二就是海關對於這個我們的那個煙害防治法那個施行前後的一個邊境的一個防護的一個管理作為如下第一個煙害防治法施行前海關查獲在這個所謂的這個電子煙油煙彈還有這個如果是含有尼古丁的這個部分的話那個施行前就是是違反那個要事法的一個規定我們海關會依那個要事法82條這邊移送這個"},{"start":2928.389,"end":2952.275,"text":"那個地方那個刑事主管機關去做偵辦那如果是這些煙油、煙彈沒有含尼古丁的部分那經過這個地方主管機關為那個國建署這邊認為這個是屬於違反這個《煙害防制法》的一個相關輸入規定的這個物品的話我們海關這邊會議這個《煙害防制法》30條以送地方政府來做裁處"},{"start":2953.51,"end":2971.798,"text":"那另外就是對於煙害防治法通過之後海關發現這些煙油、煙彈甚至他的這個所謂必要的這個組元件那不論有沒有含這個所謂尼古丁這些等等這些都是一例移送給我們的這個國建署這邊地方政府來做一個偵辦"},{"start":2973.419,"end":2988.94,"text":"那來做處理那如果是說這個電子煙有這個有宣稱治療療效的這個部分的話那我想藥事法這個部分我們是已給這個藥事法的移送然後用那個刑事案件來做一個偵辦"},{"start":2989.801,"end":2999.645,"text":"那海關對於這個煙害防治法實施以後查緝的成果大概就是說我們113年10月31號為止總共查獲電子煙這個案件有1230案總共有10萬4千餘隻這個部分我們會繼續加強查緝那另外就是對於測鏡作為方面我們持續來優化我們的一個查緝工具譬如說S光的一個檢查儀"},{"start":3014.932,"end":3033.98,"text":"更新陸續更新來投入我們的一個邊境的一個查緝來輔助官員的一個查緝那另外就是說我們的一個風險管理方面我們會加強風險管理的一個分析還有檢討對過去的案例或是高風險的一個這個地方的一個情質等等我們都會做一個鎖定然後來做一個"},{"start":3034.48,"end":3055.269,"text":"我們的一個加強查緝,另外就是深化我們的情緒交流,就是跟我們國內外的主管機關,還有這些所謂的我們的邊境這些機關來做合作,作為我們來打擊這個煙瓶。那另外提升官員的一個查緝的一個經驗還有技巧,辦理這些各種教育的講習,或是教育的這個所謂的一個訓練,能夠提升我們的查緝技巧。"},{"start":3055.669,"end":3074.963,"text":"那總結這個部分就是根據我們這邊的一個海關的一個邊境查緝不管是我們的情資交流、官員剛剛講的加強風險的管理還有深挖情資合作這些等等我們都會持續來加強來共同防制我們這個走私煙品的好,謝謝陳副處長的口頭報告"},{"start":3083.663,"end":3091.276,"text":"我們現在在場的委員已經達三人了我們先來確定我們的議事錄那所以上次的這個議事錄有沒有錯誤或者遺漏之處"},{"start":3092.947,"end":3103.235,"text":"好沒有那我們就意思不確定那現在我們開始進行詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員郭育晴質詢結束後"},{"start":3116.425,"end":3126.784,"text":"及進行處理．處理提案時．如果提案委員及聯署委員均不在場．原例不予處理首先我們就先請發言登記第一位．侯孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":3137.594,"end":3162.953,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請剛剛有報告的長官都一起上來好不好好,請剛剛以上我們有做口頭報告的這個各部會官員直接上這個備詢台我想主席在這邊先暫時先宣告一下因為今天那個鄭部長他大概腳傷那有點不舒服如果他待會有個人需求的話可能會有一張被的椅子還是要不要先拿出來吧椅子要不要就先拿出來"},{"start":3163.373,"end":3164.516,"text":"有不舒服就坐一下好不好"},{"start":3174.086,"end":3190.672,"text":"來 部長 因為教育文化委員會嘛 教育部嘛那本期剛剛聆聽了四個部會的簡報喔大家都講得非常的漂亮喔又是跨部會合作 又是源頭管理 又是加強取締 又是打擊犯罪那我想請教部長 部長你認為現在電子煙的狀況 氾氾濫嚴不嚴重"},{"start":3197.049,"end":3205.232,"text":"根據剛才衛福部的統計數字以國中來講從1點幾到3點8、3點9這個數字確實是讓我有一點訝異很訝異是不是你覺得太高還是太低我覺得就國中生來講他確實不管他基於什麼樣的一個動機但是怎麼會去接觸這樣的一個接觸的"},{"start":3228.463,"end":3242.617,"text":"電子煙到目前為止我們台灣是規定20歲以下是吸紙煙嘛 對不對那電子煙到目前為止也是不合法嘛 對不對不合法所以說任何人都不能買嘛那部長你知不知道如果所以國中生來講的話要講什麼樣的暗號還是要什麼樣的管道才能夠去購買到電子煙"},{"start":3249.746,"end":3275.484,"text":"對不起,這一個我確實是不清楚本席告訴你啊,不需要啊不需要任何的暗號啊不需要任何的管道啊我說我去便利商店要買紫煙國中生要買紫煙便利商店的店員都來看一下身份證啊但是買電子煙一點身份認證都沒有啊來,我們來看一下我就說剛剛上來前我Google啊下一張我們先到最後一張"},{"start":3279.175,"end":3303.922,"text":"我Google打電子煙三個字兩個禮拜前我已經在未還委員會講過一次了很多委員也都提過說現在電子煙氾濫的程度是你們沒有辦法想像的結果Google電子煙我還不用打任何關鍵字我不用很聰明我不用打暗語電子煙三個字打了之後第一個搜尋是什麼衛福部下面四個是什麼"},{"start":3306.4,"end":3320.933,"text":"全都是電子煙的販賣官網他不是拍賣平台他不是小賣家他不是跟你隱晦他直接做官網給你看來我們再看上幾張看到上面有沒有長鮮、驚喜、滿千送百電子煙可以跟你來做促銷"},{"start":3334.761,"end":3361.532,"text":"部長,要不要猜一下現在電子煙有多少口味?國中生嘛,好奇嘛,蠻多嘛對,我們日常生活所有的水果、咖啡各方面的這個飲料的口味大概都有喔,部長你也算了解喔,來我們來看一下葡萄、荔枝、薄荷、哈密瓜、蜜桃、百香果全部應有盡有直接叫你加購物車"},{"start":3362.898,"end":3388.819,"text":"部長你再看一下那個價錢喔420塊國中生拿不拿得出來420塊我想現在以一般的家庭一個禮拜的零用錢可能幾百塊應該有他直接可以購買那為什麼我講說沒有身份認證因為這個上這個平台不用任何的身份不用任何的年齡限制他直接搜尋就搜尋得到再下一張免運費"},{"start":3390.373,"end":3412.214,"text":"可以說幫你送到72個小時3天的時間今天下訂3點後幫你送到全台灣任何一個便利商店學校附近有沒有便利商店有嗎有所以你們剛剛一直在講說我查緝學校附近的專賣店不用啊我上網之後我送到便利商店最後一張他很貼心啊"},{"start":3413.12,"end":3426.939,"text":"告訴你保障隱私所以提供隱秘的包裝服務不會註明內容物跟店家意思是什麼我今天去拿這個貨的時候我只要給錢他就直接給我不會查你的身份證件"},{"start":3429.52,"end":3456.995,"text":"如果說源頭不管理源頭如此的泛濫源頭如此的方便取得我今天教育部在一直講說我要給老師我要給第一線的教官我要給老師什麼樣的一個稽查你覺得查得完嗎是的我們把我們的所有責任沒有源頭管理然後我們把所有責任都給第一線的老師老師看到電子煙你要稽查你要取締但是學生有人權又不能收書包"},{"start":3458.527,"end":3477.032,"text":"然後結果沒想到這個買賣紫煙、酒類能不能在網路上購買能不能獲到付款不行耶連合法的紫煙跟酒類都不能在網路上獲到付款結果反而非法的電子煙那麼方便部長還有剛剛這幾位我們的長官們你們的每一個報告我都聽了我都看了"},{"start":3489.11,"end":3493.974,"text":"說稽查科技執法跨部會結果Google沒有人會用Google嗎大家稽查稽查什麼東西我想請教你們好意思在剛剛20分鐘前每一個人講說你們的報告在稽查結果Google一出來是這樣子的大方精美部長"},{"start":3517.677,"end":3533.438,"text":"你剛剛最後講到跨部會合作共同防制所以加強電子煙的查緝跟電子煙廣告的稽查建構較緊合作安全網路減少電子煙進入校園的機會本席"},{"start":3535.097,"end":3563.373,"text":"很希望你可以說到做到啊你要怎麼做跟委員報告這就是我進來520以後我事實上跟我們這個部會裡邊所以你從520到現在已經放任他四個多月又再放任他四個多月了我一直希望說校園不管霸凌或者陰害防制一定要整個從社區從包括警政的一個比較生態性的整體陳主委員剛才所提所以部長你覺得這是誰的問題學校的老師他真的力有未待對就是說"},{"start":3564.654,"end":3565.634,"text":"部長,學生現在能不能帶手機?"},{"start":3594.079,"end":3617.623,"text":"是的,是的,可以學生可能他今天正在聽你這樣講的時候他可能他拿出手機來上網然後訂購,三天後就可以在便利商店拿好貨了我們事實上已經跟這些傳播業者、電信業者都已經在合作部長,跟誰在合作我們跟這個電信業者我們已經在談看怎麼樣去防制一些﹐這個問題多久了來我們再到最後一頁"},{"start":3622.588,"end":3651.841,"text":"不覺得很諷刺嗎?其實本行...我說實在話台灣現在最大的問題是非法的東西比合法的東西好買不作為是政府官員的怠惰跟台灣最大的悲哀啊因為你不覺得看到這個狀況非常諷刺嗎?搜尋第一個是衛福部衛福部來我們請衛福部今天是副署長啊說實在話"},{"start":3653.39,"end":3678.98,"text":"我覺得非常難過是因為我兩個禮拜前直接跟著部長講部長也講說他要處理就過去兩個禮拜沒有耶感覺甚至變本加厲你看到這個情況你不覺得很諷刺嗎就是說我們衛福部的官網居然是跟其他販賣電子煙的擺在一起而且還比你多比你漂亮比你好看比你吸引人"},{"start":3680.896,"end":3683.977,"text":"是,所以我看到了這兩天有一個新聞叫做南投衛生局一個學生貼電子煙的圖片罰20萬對不對"},{"start":3709.272,"end":3719.98,"text":"是的有嗎有這個新聞一個學生貼一張電子煙的圖片罰20萬結果今天Google隨便查有一堆官網你們連下架能力都沒有"},{"start":3721.24,"end":3721.64,"text":"那是誰的問題 誰的問題"},{"start":3750.596,"end":3767.262,"text":"他還可以留在然後可以持續這是誰的問題這裡面其實需要看的是境內境外的我們在努力讓境內只要點TW的境內網站全部都封網了那境外網站我們需要來那個法務部還有今天數發部是不是有來來我再請教喔真的大家是覺得說這已經是麻木不仁到氾濫程度到那麼嚴重"},{"start":3778.496,"end":3803.868,"text":"我們就講說半年前性私密影像剛出來的時候全國大家都在關心有個論壇可以散發未成年的少年的照片媒體群起激憤報導可能會傷到我們民進黨政府的民調不到一天裡面數發部、衛福部、教育部、相關部會"},{"start":3805.698,"end":3830.397,"text":"從你推我我推你到就讓那個官網就沒有辦法連結啦那現在電子煙的問題是不夠嚴重沒有人員傷亡還是因為它不夠有名還是它已經是氾濫到你管都不能管的程度所以說你讓它持續的在這邊我就說了剛剛副署長也承認了嘛兩個禮拜前我在衛環委員會部長也知道啊"},{"start":3831.291,"end":3859.809,"text":"很多委員也關心啊我今天開第一炮我講的是我把它直接點出來因為我真的覺得說這樣的一個氾濫的程度背後到底有多少利益利益大到五個部會在這邊沒有一個人敢動他們沒有人敢動欸我都還沒有追查說財政部到底他的貨從哪裡來很多人講說Made in China海關偷渡來的啊"},{"start":3861.148,"end":3872.474,"text":"貨倉一個禮拜來一次啊但是今天五個部會站在這邊結果放任這樣的狀況沒有辦法處理沒有辦法負責沒有辦法下架沒有辦法遮蔽持續可以點部長我最後主席站起來了我今天整理真的很多很多質詢想要跟你討論啊但這個問題非常嚴重"},{"start":3886.653,"end":3895.622,"text":"我只想請教你今天自己講的第4頁跨部會合作共同防制什麼時候召開會議來討論要把這樣的問題給解決"},{"start":3902.712,"end":3931.457,"text":"委員報告事實上卓院長在下個禮拜一也會有一個治安的一個彙報所以要推給卓院長部長你針對問題好不好你要推給卓院長我的意思是說我們本來內部就有一些然後我也跟事實上劉部長也提到說我們怎麼樣共同來建置一個像警務現在有一個APP的一個這樣一個APP它就可以用來防制校園的洗桌霸凌或者陰害防制的通報"},{"start":3931.937,"end":3953.511,"text":"部長你到底知不知道我現在的問題是什麼?我跟你談Google搜尋隨便搜尋的到你跟我講警務App真的很麻木欸我說這樣子真的很麻木如果說我們連最基本的源頭管理都沒有防制的話那這樣子我們怎麼樣能夠阻止說電子煙進入到校園"},{"start":3955.392,"end":3962.655,"text":"連校園的老師的責任都沒有辦法部長幫他們負責部長如果你要繼續講我就給紅委員再一次10分鐘你OK了嗎?"},{"start":3984.461,"end":3988.584,"text":"最後一句話在臺灣非法的東西比合法的東西好買這是官員的怠惰跟不作為是我們國家最大的問題跟悲哀"},{"start":4017.242,"end":4018.903,"text":"接下来有請柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":4040.165,"end":4048.633,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我想我們今天會聚焦來這個地方來部長你認為電子煙或加熱煙在我們校園的問題嚴不嚴重"},{"start":4051.111,"end":4052.252,"text":"目前看起來在各年年齡階段裏邊國中是增加的"},{"start":4074.554,"end":4076.415,"text":"7.9萬青少年使用今年有多少?教育部有沒有掌握?"},{"start":4096.804,"end":4097.144,"text":"7.9萬使用電子煙 超過1.6萬使用加熱煙"},{"start":4113.16,"end":4116.582,"text":"這都是黑數合計9.5萬青少年使用新興煙品這是黑數我還是要強調光是黑數兩年前就這麼多你更不要說現在到底有多少這就是為什麼今天我們的召委特別排長的一個議題因為是非常非常的嚴重我們問個最基本的問題好了"},{"start":4133.709,"end":4133.749,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":4146.403,"end":4157.566,"text":"校規怎麼處理兩大過留下查看還是如何剛剛衛福部裡面也特別提到啊你會如果說你有發現有被檢舉的話你可以責成你們這邊的資料裡面寫出來如果發現使用電子煙轉請縣市地方衛生局查處並且配合警政單位加強來對於學校周邊商品我請問在校園裡面書包裡面萬一可以搜到電子煙的話它的校規處理是什麼"},{"start":4176.01,"end":4179.233,"text":"你怎麼查處還有我要問查處了多少屆我告訴部長昨天就有一個家長非常生氣告訴我們他的女兒為什麼別人買的網路上買的這個電子煙之後加價賣給他還告訴大家大家可以一起來買大家可以一起來抽女兒買到的是加價後的420塊加個100塊賣他520塊到處賣你怎麼辦"},{"start":4203.374,"end":4208.641,"text":"部長我只問個最單純的問題學生在校內發生這條問題的話他的校規是存儲什麼樣的成分基礎點在哪裡部長你回答我這麼簡單問題就好學校問題就好了以學校的一個校規來講他違反持有持有違反他違反校規是要記過處分的記過對就是我說嘛最重可以記到什麼程度"},{"start":4224.346,"end":4226.968,"text":"我們更重要的是對學生有吸食電子煙這裡邊怎麼樣去提供他這個行為上的一些輔導跟規範這個改善"},{"start":4245.922,"end":4256.134,"text":"Diction成癮的這個問題輔導這都是教育部官方我們很知道這個問題非常的嚴重我也同意源頭不管你的話又把學校丟給學校然後學校的老師你認為他敢搜書包嗎搜比不搜"},{"start":4261.42,"end":4267.024,"text":"更麻煩所以你到底可不可以給我們一個行為準則讓我們這些老師有個依據你剛剛講的萬一發現也不過就是記過學生不會怕、不會怕啦然後呢衛福部告訴我說你們就會責成地方單位來查處到底查處的多少屆不要講這些東西問題是沒有解決你部長你試圖要跟洪孟凱委員解釋很多你做的什麼數據告訴你沒有用"},{"start":4288.419,"end":4289.901,"text":"然後這都是家中學校說我只問你到底可以給老師什麼樣的行為準則來做依據不要讓老師限於他要不要來懲處你像目前為止也就不過是記過的處分而已嘛不是嗎"},{"start":4302.246,"end":4326.201,"text":"對學生的行為確實是記過但是我們更重要的是他行為的一個改變跟改善你行為那麼容易改變的話就就就就好了這一個來源源頭我們會這一個源頭對好的部長可以那沒關係你的源頭到底怎麼來處理我們是不是在請法務部跟其他數發部過來這是我們所看到的網路賣電子煙到底是哪個部會管誰可以告訴我網路電子煙是哪個部會管的哪一個部會管這件事哪一個部會"},{"start":4332.011,"end":4337.212,"text":"法務部來告訴我這是你們管的嗎電子煙管理是衛福部衛福部這是你們管的嗎電子煙是我管的面臨這麼多問題在網路上這麼多問題電子煙是你管所以我等一下問你成分問題這麼多網路的部分是你管嗎"},{"start":4357.403,"end":4358.224,"text":"報告委員只要它是跟電子煙有關的就是我管"},{"start":4385.445,"end":4407.384,"text":"包括在網路上散佈的部分所以我們現在是積極的在加強網路的查緝從去年到現在我們大概有三萬五千多件對網路的搜尋我告訴你你們現在目前為止所搜尋的結果怎麼樣來我們看後面目前為止明朗滿目衛福部法務部你說都是跨部會但是衛福部為主責但是我們再往下過來看"},{"start":4409.773,"end":4410.494,"text":"我們只能從網路的部分網路平台去找到犯淹者"},{"start":4424.031,"end":4426.572,"text":"有查到犯煙者是誰目前犯煙者在網路上開我們賣那個採儲那個賣煙的人是115件115件來我告訴你來我們來看一下採儲的部分一年多來檢舉裡面就有50萬件大街小巷都可以看到電子煙"},{"start":4446.318,"end":4456.381,"text":"50萬件都是民眾檢舉但是開罰率有多低?非常非常的低到底開罰率有多低?現在開罰的件數到10月底是1370件0.24%0.24%"},{"start":4461.383,"end":4463.964,"text":"報告委員電子煙的這個煙害防制它的這個裁法需要經過一些行政程序所以我們在10月30號跟縣市高溝通要求加強裁法的速度跟力道"},{"start":4481.269,"end":4499.425,"text":"這已經非常久了,我不忍苛責你,因為我知道你們的人力各方面都不夠,需要跨部會,我完全同意,但是你把電子煙攬在你們衛福部的這個部分裡面,cover率又這麼低,所以為什麼今天大家這麼生氣,你們講了很多,但是數據會說話,數據會說話,現在所有的家長都那麼擔心,特別是我要問一下,部長你現在可以暫時先請回座一下。"},{"start":4505.811,"end":4525.844,"text":"然後呢 你看0.24的開罰率沒人在怕啦然後我們再往下來看加味煙為什麼我今天要特別提到今天大家很多人有提到加味煙你們當時候上一任的人大家認為加味煙應該是全面來做一個禁止的但是呢 你們現在只是怎麼樣有27種成分你們禁止然後呢 你們有4種口約你們也禁止"},{"start":4528.726,"end":4544.529,"text":"但是呢對於煙潮口味以外你們都是禁止但是呢對不起目前氾濫還是非常非常的嚴重我們再往下來看一個對於這個部分裡面啊說它是全面應該禁止的可是讓現在目前有很多的家長認為你們還是有開一點點小門因為目前為止你們只禁止了27種的成分但是現在夯不浪蕩加在一起有1200多種你們要你們要花多少時間才可以把這些成分一一一把"},{"start":4557.111,"end":4577.443,"text":"我跟委員報告這27種的加味煙目前是完成預告的程序現在已經超過這個比數了全世界大概有1200種吧但是我們禁用的這27種大概cover 74%所有的煙瓶所以我們會繼續滾動式的增加我告訴你現在包括口味什麼你哈默的價錢已經超過1200種"},{"start":4578.524,"end":4579.744,"text":"加味煙確實需要積極的去處理目前我們是完成預告緊接著我們就會開會是不是一定是27種"},{"start":4604.19,"end":4618.019,"text":"你們永遠趕不上現在所有煙傷所多我剛剛說現在目前為止已經有1200個不同的成分不同的口味的一個組合已經不是27種這樣的一個成分可以了你現在抽取27種"},{"start":4619.66,"end":4625.383,"text":"趕不上這樣的一個速度這是我們最擔心的問題所以衛福部目前真正的問題是什麼你們如果需要人力的話我也贊同啊剛剛部長講的你要找卓院長你找卓院長把所有的木粉全部給他開出來嘛需要什麼樣的人力需要什麼你們很顯然目前的跨部會是沒有辦法達到這樣的一個成果的嘛不是嗎"},{"start":4637.848,"end":4658.204,"text":"完全沒有辦法光是在校園裡面就只能直記過然後呢老師又還要人家檢舉然後呢又沒有人敢進入校園這個問題就是無解而且最重要的是體積非常的小攜帶非常的方便所以目前為止到這個地方我真的奉勸因為我才是第二個質詢我相信往後有所有的委員都會質詢這個問題你們真的應該好好來給一個公開的一個說法更積極性的做法否則我保證一路到底"},{"start":4666.01,"end":4666.69,"text":"時間到了 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝柯志恩委員"},{"start":4694.38,"end":4711.249,"text":"好 我們現在請萬美玲委員好 謝謝主席我們有請今天有來的各部會我想都請一個今天的代表好 那我們就請教育部、衛福部、法務部、數位發展部、警政署警政署好 謝謝都上來了嗎"},{"start":4721.874,"end":4721.894,"text":"黃毓民議員"},{"start":4736.834,"end":4740.477,"text":"兩個禮拜前我們在衛福部才討論過這個問題兩個禮拜我們沒有看到在這個衛福委員會所提出來的這些問題點這些質疑點在這兩個禮拜當中在我們各部會有什麼樣進一步的去處理或解決所以也就是說委員會如果每一次開會完了以後我們還是原地踏步請問一下不管今天質詢也好拍專報也好意義在哪裡那今天我想"},{"start":4764.218,"end":4775.841,"text":"特別來在這個我們教育部這裡也要讓部長去除了闡述一下您所遇到的困難我們各部會、跨部會到底應該要怎麼做這是今天最重要的議題我想部長剛剛特別有在聽到您的這個口頭報告當中您有提到說在校園的部分呢您如果查獲學生攜帶如果查獲學生攜帶你就會轉這個衛生單位"},{"start":4788.604,"end":4806.442,"text":"那這個源頭呢聽起來好像在學校裡面你又說了如果查獲會給適當的這個處置那剛剛我聽這個柯州委員在質詢的時候您也沒有說出來現在到底要怎麼查怎麼罰那難道源頭就是學校責任都是老師嗎部長簡要的回答一下我想我確實"},{"start":4808.824,"end":4816.308,"text":"謝謝委員關心學校的整個一個學習更友善的一個校園環境更安全的校園環境他確實以我們現在的一個生態來講老師他的一個專業在一個教學的專業但是我們又希望青少年學童有一個更好的一個成長發展的空間那外面的許多的這些誘因確實也很大所以我才會一直希望說所以嘛部長請問一下嘛我現在請教您嘛老師怎麼查"},{"start":4838.168,"end":4862.03,"text":"老師基本上我們就會從過去在校園裡邊有學生有抽煙或者有一些異常的一些行為你的意思是說我們先做一個調查表問問看大家有沒有抽煙然後針對有抽煙的人我們再來查所以我請教您一下老師該怎麼查老師基本上是從他日常教學裡邊去觀察到學生的一個行為所以老師就是用觀察的對嗎"},{"start":4864.656,"end":4881.683,"text":"譬如說我們有一些除了這個教室的觀察當然還有一些廁所或者學校有一些好在不同的地方我們來進行觀察是這樣嗎可能譬如說有一些他就會有一些丟棄煙蒂啊或者一些茶餐的一些不同部長我想喔其實喔我們要面對這個問題啦我就問您啦老師在去查這個電子煙的時候你覺得他有這個權力有這個能力嗎有沒有"},{"start":4891.226,"end":4893.568,"text":"在校園裡面查到有電子煙的就你知道有多少件在今年這一整年當中"},{"start":4908.803,"end":4928.435,"text":"目前有38件有通報的總共就從校園裡面查到老師查出來有38件是這樣嗎好 我們來看一下喔我們你剛剛說查到有38件喔但是呢根據衛福部今天的資料看起來喔我們就講喔這個三年前的舊資料啦三年前的舊資料電子煙啦喔電子煙大概有7萬9千人有7萬9千人有這個吸食杯查緝喔7萬9這是舊資料喔"},{"start":4937.961,"end":4941.104,"text":"我相信黑書恐怕是這個好幾倍喔你看我們在校園查38件這是成比例嗎這是一個喔我想 我就 我質詢如果是各部會的可以來自己答喔那麼這個剛剛講到是舊資料但我今天在這邊還要特別講一件事"},{"start":4953.115,"end":4956.678,"text":"現在加熱煙是中央主管機關公告的指定煙品不管是輸入製造等等都要經過健康風險評估我請教衛福部現在加熱煙的部分我們有沒有哪一件來申請而且是通過審查"},{"start":4976.915,"end":4993.53,"text":"沒有對但是事實上加熱煙也要氾濫所以今天本席要在這裡也講清楚加熱煙目前為止也都是違法的好那我們來看電子煙加熱煙加起來我們青少年啊將近10萬人就是舊資料3年前的舊資料將近10萬人去碰觸稀釋啊所以喔現在的資料"},{"start":4996.232,"end":5000.354,"text":"拿出來看我相信會讓所有的師長更痛心啦但我們校園查緝38件為什麼有困難嘛怎麼查你把這樣的責任丟給老師我跟你講這些老師這個是不可承受之重所以今天校園裡面發生這樣的事情電子煙的氾濫有的在校園裡面有的在校園周邊那誰的責任"},{"start":5018.601,"end":5018.781,"text":"主管機關是衛福部"},{"start":5048.761,"end":5053.465,"text":"我問一下部長以及大家這個什麼叫電子維他命棒啊部長 什麼叫電子維他命棒來 以上都有知道什麼叫電子維他命棒的舉手好 那什麼叫蒸汽果汁"},{"start":5069.912,"end":5089.453,"text":"知道的舉手來 威伯伯告訴我什麼叫蒸汽果汁因為電子煙本身就是它的煙彈本身所以電子煙的一種嘛 是不是電子煙的一種嘛可見喔 我今天要講啦大家都說在查緝 大家都說要防制啦可是呢 我必須要說啦有一些人"},{"start":5089.913,"end":5100.327,"text":"傻傻的連電子煙加熱煙第一個還分不清楚法律的規範還不了解那麼有時候看到了學校老師看到甚至於還不知道那些電子煙部長有沒有這種可能"},{"start":5102.488,"end":5124.693,"text":"當然是存在的如果你一看到你知道嗎跟委員報告確實是這幾天部長如果啦你從孩子書包看到一樣東西其實它是電子煙可是它有不同的這個表現的狀態你能夠辨識出來那個就是電子煙嗎目前目前我手邊的資料確實如果按圖來比照我是可以的"},{"start":5125.293,"end":5153.632,"text":"暗圖來比較是可以食品拿來你可以嗎我目前沒有接受到食品所以我想部長這個我要講今天就是說雖然我們今天在教育部裡面排這個我們要知道打擊電子煙非法的這個不可法這些電子煙以及我們要維護我們青少年的健康我們都知道電子煙真的可以造成這個青少年不管他將來去吸食煙或者是很多的危害我們都很清楚了但是大家跨部會怎麼做嗎"},{"start":5154.893,"end":5159.756,"text":"對不對 這才是重點啊所以我想今天關務署也在現場 關務署啊 沒上來啊市長 積極一點好不好積極一點好不好我想這幾年我們看到海關在查緝這個電子煙110年的時候有12.7萬隻但113年有4.2萬那我想請教一下這是查緝有成還是什麼原因 為什麼會下降"},{"start":5185.766,"end":5211.608,"text":"報告委員 這個部分大概我們有分析過為什麼就是說 講重點第一個 這個大部分電子煙來源地大概都是中國大陸那邊比較多那中國大陸近年來也都積極對這個電子煙加強他們的一個管理措施所以說這個部分可能電子煙進到台灣來這個部分所以你現在的意思是說我們查緝有成是因為對岸管理的好"},{"start":5212.649,"end":5236.363,"text":"他因為就是說電子煙這個部分跟我們剛剛講的那個加熱煙這個部分可能有互相取代的關係我想這樣子講今天我們在這個境外的部分加強去查緝這當然是非常重要的一個重點不過我想一樣回到這個衛福部來看你看衛福部自己的國建署統計的資料今年的1月到10月我們查獲非法使用154件對嗎?國建署"},{"start":5241.209,"end":5265.261,"text":"今年的1月到10月您的資料154件但是我們看到光舊資料這新時的少年就高達了將近8萬人這是舊資料現在搞不好超過10萬但你看你查到的只能有154件剛剛校園裡面只有38件這多麼可怕的一件事情所以今天大家的口頭報告簡直就是浪費大家的時間講來講去都在講查緝防制結果是什麼過去做不好"},{"start":5270.023,"end":5273.806,"text":"上次未還委員會兩個禮拜開完會以後到現在網路上一樣看到啊對但是我要跟委員說明兩個禮拜前的未還委員會之後我們做了相當多的事情包括跟縣市合作剛才部長提到的是38件是他們的統計我跟委員報告這一個禮拜不到兩個禮拜的時間我們的縣市查處"},{"start":5292.543,"end":5298.529,"text":"包括跟警政合作跟校園合作大概有1000件以上但是因為他那個真正採儲的量數還在統計是不是容我一個禮拜內提供採儲的具體的資料給您所以呢意思是說校園裡面查處38件但是我們各方這個合力查處有超過1000件"},{"start":5312.203,"end":5334.913,"text":"在校園周邊跟警政署合作的部分所以我一個禮拜內會把這些統計的資料交給你我想當然我們這個38件跟1000件我們感覺好像成績更好一點點但是呢我們來看稀釋的人口超過10萬的青少年我想這個成績還是慘不忍睹啊所以呢我想今天在這裡本席等一下也是有這個臨時提案我們希望我們要這個衛福部主責"},{"start":5339.375,"end":5359.91,"text":"那但是呢 我們跨部會是不是要有一個這個激查防制的平台上次在外防委員會結束之後你們沒有做那現在本期要具體要求你們到底的這個橫向的聯繫那大家的合作怎麼做嘛從境外的這個查緝這個境內的不管是警政署、衛福部再來數發部在哪裡"},{"start":5363.548,"end":5380.084,"text":"蘇發布就是更誇張了蘇發布難道都不會上網去看一下嗎這都跟你們沒有關係嗎不然蘇發布平常在幹嘛蘇發布都在做什麼這麼嚴重的事情對不對危害下一代的這個健康而且這是完全違法的你蘇發布都視而不見嗎"},{"start":5381.616,"end":5409.764,"text":"報告委員 針對這個淹害的部分的話基本上全職單位是衛福部那我們協助了一些事情比如說像我們希望他能夠藉行用平台的方式通知那個相關平台業者能夠向下而且我們建立了所謂的Meta Google這種大型平台的綠色通道也可以協助衛福部那另外在提到所以數位發布你現在的想法就是說你是協助衛福部嘛 對不對報告委員 因為基本上警政署"},{"start":5413.359,"end":5439.77,"text":"你也是協助衛福部是不是各位很報告你也協助衛福部嗎這部份當然是大家要兩個部門都要跨機關來合作所以你會不會主動出擊那基本上我想我們針對電子煙部我們還是在主軸還是在他有毒品的部份來做一個專責的查緝啦是所以呢如果你不知道他有沒有毒品你就不查緝是這樣子講法嗎"},{"start":5441.722,"end":5446.366,"text":"今天在教育部排定但是我覺得如果我們把所有的茶器通通放在校園當源頭我們把所有的責任都給老師我跟你講 將來很多人已經不想再當老師了"},{"start":5465.823,"end":5465.843,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":5499.953,"end":5500.113,"text":"委員好"},{"start":5523.891,"end":5552.012,"text":"部長我想今天真的很感謝我們的召委安排這樣的議題我想所有的官員也應該都是把我們的學員、學童都當成我們自己的孩子在關照但是近期真的有很多事件是需要我們關心首先本席昨天接獲家長陳情與一名涉案的未成年兒少性猥褻前科的人士違法入境來台那移民署接獲了這個AIT的通知緊急發函"},{"start":5553.573,"end":5569.222,"text":"那這個據網傳的一個公文那當然密件公文是不要外傳的但是就網路又開始傳出去了那11月24號的時候教育部好像有發函說要請各級學校補習班要來清查"},{"start":5569.722,"end":5591.069,"text":"是不是曾經聘任或運用該名人是這個字還用得很特別聘任或運用請教一下部長目前全國各級學校補習班是不是已經清查完畢有沒有縣市教育局清查的結果還有學校補習班的回報有沒有性侵性猥褻前科的外籍人士被聘用的記錄"},{"start":5592.029,"end":5600.222,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們確實有發這個通知要他們提醒我們所有的學校提醒很棒有沒有完成清查這是"},{"start":5602.677,"end":5626.925,"text":"報告委員因為外籍人士要聘用進來的話必須要提供那個類似良民證這樣的一個申請對啊我們知道啊所以為什麼需要發這個東西呢你們應該知道沒有啊你為什麼還要發但是我們還是會去提醒所以說是通知提醒各位所以就不用清查嗎那現在清查結果通知完了清查結果回來了沒啊因為你們也覺得可能有漏洞有黑數嘛"},{"start":5628.485,"end":5654.754,"text":"發委員因為是通知那因為是在系統上在申請的時候就會擋掉那有些是因為部分縣市政府他們比較擔心自己會進行清查那所以到底我們能不能確保他沒有被運用沒有被聘任教育部能不能在此確保不行嘛從機制上是應該會擋掉因為他不應該去違法聘任那能不能確保嘛對嘛你不能嘛那有沒有什麼時候會完成清查有沒有訂一個deadline"},{"start":5656.761,"end":5681.415,"text":"如果委員覺得我們需要我們也可以請各縣市政府來清查但是只是說會不會每一次因為有一位進來然後我們就每次都起到各縣市政府現在這一位因為有這個密件的這個問題家長非常憂心那是不是三日內可以協助我覺得不是把這個責任就丟到地方那教育部是不是已經清查過內部沒有這個聘用紀錄了你們自己內部清查過了嗎"},{"start":5682.987,"end":5708.648,"text":"警察完了嗎我們是系統上面是沒有沒有這個人對所以你們自己已經完成自己的清查是不是縣市政府聘任的原因是在縣市政府聘任所以如果有需要必須要請縣市政府來協助好這個還是希望你們三日內要確認他是不是有受雇於任何學校或補習班我覺得從你們內部的資料去確認當然外部的有回顧有交出資料的你們就進行統整好不好三日內部長可不可以允諾"},{"start":5710.846,"end":5725.919,"text":"謝謝委員關心我想這是沒有問題因為我們從系統從地方大家合作再進一步的確認你提到系統兩個字我覺得未來這樣的事件我覺得這次要稍微檢討一下就是說未來有沒有一個更快速的清查機制這個我們未來再來討論接下來我們討論今天電子煙的這個議題"},{"start":5730.003,"end":5751.765,"text":"部長我想這個校園電子煙犯案的議題很多一線教師家長都非常擔心煙害防治法明令禁止電子煙已經一年多了但是呢電子煙顯然沒有絕跡甚至還有昨天媒體報導一名未前年高中生在IG上面貼了一張圖片然後說你要什麼牌子口味的文字呢就被認定有販售意圖被開罰20萬"},{"start":5754.187,"end":5780.269,"text":"那當然如果他確定有這樣的意圖他甚至有這樣的行為當然不應該要開罰但是也許會不會有一些年輕人搞不清楚這個玩笑的界線等等我想確認一下這個教育部有沒有這個掌握20歲以下因為這些不理解還是亂搞誤觸了這個法網有沒有相關的人員數額金額被罰款多少有沒有這樣的一個掌握啊"},{"start":5781.15,"end":5805.318,"text":"這未成年啊他這個搞不清楚狀況啊我同意委員剛才所提的確實有一些青少年他自己同才就是開玩笑對有那有沒有掌握20歲以下處罰人數這個部分我們確實目前是我沒有沒有這個資料掌握一下一週內提出好不好因為我覺得學生在成長當中啦教育部的責任就是要協助他們成長那所以我們應該要掌握他們的這個狀況可以嗎一週內提出20歲以下好"},{"start":5808.499,"end":5812.421,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長"},{"start":5833.059,"end":5852.991,"text":"說自己有吸食電子煙,你知道這個比例嗎?我們都知道人數啦,8萬人10萬人,你知道是多少嗎?比例是多少嗎?大概,跟委員報告,校園內裡邊確實我們學生是比較少的110年就是8.8%了,今年很可能就已經破10%了,照這樣計算起來,10個人可能有1個人"},{"start":5853.911,"end":5869.646,"text":"如果我數字有錯可以更正好不好因為後面有人搖了歪了一下頭但是大家要掌握這件事不要看這八萬十萬你可能不理解這件事情的嚴重性那為什麼會發生這個你說這個外面有八八十八八萬十萬只有38件"},{"start":5871.467,"end":5900.286,"text":"這個當然我還是要非常感謝第一線教育人員有警覺心而不是零件嘛他們還是找到一些但是這很顯然是通報機制的問題我想請教一下部長今天可不可以允諾啦因為其實呢使用電子煙並不是明定的校安通報項目這個通報稽查的這個整個過程也非常模糊不清楚我想請問一下部長今天可不可以當場允諾對高中以下的校園吸煙的案件包含使用電子煙的案件"},{"start":5900.746,"end":5921.221,"text":"無論是透過現有的校安機制或其他方式可不可以明定一個明確的處理機制通報流程SOP畢竟教育現場的通報是不是能夠啟動後續轉弦機制通報是最重要的關鍵這個可不可以允諾啊不然我們弦線的人員家長搞不清楚啊"},{"start":5921.781,"end":5941.068,"text":"跟委員報告我們確實在許多校園的一些陰害或者相關的一些暴力的一個是有SOP的那這個有沒有我們現在是電子煙專報電子煙這個部分我想我們都是在陰害防制裡面的一個系統有沒有通報稽查的流程那是不是校安通報的項目"},{"start":5942.108,"end":5963.617,"text":"就是校園當然也都是屬於煙害防制裡面的一個項目第10我在這裡問喔雖然我們國會改革法案這個遇到一些挑戰喔我們還是不我們是不認為官員可以說謊的使用電子煙到底是不是明定的校安通報項目我講這句話的時候你們後面的同仁是搖頭說不是你剛剛跟我說是到底是還是不是差了21002100倍的數字"},{"start":5970.162,"end":5974.624,"text":"是跟委員報告目前通報的部分是針對學生的人身安全的部分對嘛所以沒有電子煙部長所以這塊可不可以允諾"},{"start":5994.98,"end":6020.608,"text":"要有完整通報機制可以嗎回去好的我想他既然是法令上禁止的對嘛要有嘛謝謝啦我們要灌注學員再來速發部麻煩剛剛你們的報告還有今天專報內容都有提到您剛剛也很就是很榮幸的也很用心的啦說你們會跟Meta Google大型平台去建立這些相關的準則規範那結果勒現在"},{"start":6024.69,"end":6052.145,"text":"在搜尋引擎上面你隨便打電子煙販售的網站一搜一大把啦齁各種品牌各種口味各種廣告的標語不曉得副署長您自己有沒有上網搜尋看看這就是你們所謂源頭主角的成效嗎到底這些商家有沒有把國家的法規放在眼裡這是怎麼回事你們有沒有通報機制你們到底怎麼跟這些業者平台來配合"},{"start":6053.208,"end":6073.956,"text":"報告委員,針對這個有關我們跟Google他們協助的部分其實我們是協助這個就是衛福部這邊然後我們有綠色通道的部分就是說各部會它其實基本上它只要有法源的部分我們這邊都會幫忙那如果沒有法源的部分我們其實就是幫忙協助電子煙有法源嗎?"},{"start":6075.307,"end":6097.066,"text":"有嘛,後面,對嗎?我們今天整個活動都是在講有法源他要被禁止,結果禁止的不好嘛?境外的部分目前沒有法源我現在講的,喔,您說他把網站,欸我們今天找到一個問題喔,所以您現在,那您要,您都有確定這些主機都在國外嗎?我待會回去就稽查喔,那在國內的你們要不要處理?"},{"start":6098.047,"end":6123.115,"text":"主機在國內要不要處理?要不要配合?而且你剛剛的意思是說你們跟衛福部配合嗎?你們只是幫忙衛福部聯繫MetaGoogle,是這樣嗎?這就是你們能做的嗎?報告委員,我們還有另外做一件事,就是有關點TW域名的部分我們也做了處理那經過衛福部查,查總會有一百...所以是用域名來算境外,還是用主機?基本上...副署長,這個您是專家,您要了解喔,搞清楚喔"},{"start":6124.99,"end":6143.818,"text":"難道域名是TW主機就在台灣嗎?不見得 但是因為點TW域名可以在台灣可以由TW來處理我這 副市長您能不能針對現在這個狀況一週之內提出一個現在的你們的這個現在查緝的方式跟衛福部配合的方式啊?報告委員副市長"},{"start":6145.202,"end":6159.728,"text":"不好意思我是副署長這是我們部裡的司長我臉忙抱歉因為就是域名的部分是我們部裡面在處理那我們就是署裡面的部分我們協助的部分是針對就是說跟Google他們就是說打聲招呼"},{"start":6165.812,"end":6178.528,"text":"其實有時候打招呼也是不容易的還有我們有幫忙的部分是那個C2C的那些業者然後我們也是會督促他們副組長我理解我相信你用心良苦但是我提醒您"},{"start":6180.014,"end":6206.037,"text":"谷歌公司的董事總經理目前是賴清德總統府轄下的委員會的其中一位委員喔所以你們各個部會不要再用聯絡這些廠商打招呼都很困難這種方式來回應但我了解你很用心這個回去處理一下因為這還不是唯一一個年輕人遇到的問題我都不放這些廣告放這些廣告是違法這也不是廣告"},{"start":6206.557,"end":6233.169,"text":"這就是年輕人會遇到在網路上看到的東西再來還有更離譜的是當然教育部有這個AI的準則我們年輕人也很會用AI但是結果啦現在在這些AI的平台上面你竟然只要問一個問題AI幫你整理出所有的電子煙的網站啦這樣子的一個狀況請教一下教育部、衛福部、數發部跟法務部的官員到底哪一個部會來主責啊AI幫他推薦電子煙哪一個部會主責"},{"start":6245.165,"end":6250.951,"text":"我本來說主席謝謝時間暫停但已經停了對不起再給我一點時間所以教育部長站出來了"},{"start":6251.906,"end":6257.291,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長"},{"start":6277.23,"end":6290.52,"text":"各部會的代表是不是可以承諾啊協同教育部去建立一個緊密的校園厭害防治的機制包含介治後續的通路剛剛其實有 委員有提到啦這個現在是誰主責就厭害跟委員報告厭害防治當然目前是衛福部但我想包含剛才委員所關心的"},{"start":6303.757,"end":6328.143,"text":"所關心的這個電子煙因為我們有毒品一定要通報所以我們會把這個納入SOP的通報後續研議情形這個跨部會的機制希望一個月內可以書面回覆我們好不好那我還有一個緊急的狀況緊急事態要提醒教育部長還有速發部長其他單位同仁可以回去那各位再30秒好不好"},{"start":6329.568,"end":6352.186,"text":"好 我們現在看到一個很嚴重的問題啦速發部通茶網有個案外案出現了就是我們這一次發現速發部的這個通茶網不小心變成詐騙集團的廣告平台變成關鍵字的累積但是我們現在發現各級大專院校包含私立跟國立都變成了詐騙集團連結的跳板"},{"start":6354.207,"end":6367.318,"text":"你隨便一搜一大堆的學校我不想唸出來待會你們自己回去搜尋我們連結都會附上這些東西點下去呢直接跳過去就會變成什麼變成詐騙集團的我不想唸出來啦超差部署社團啦"},{"start":6374.624,"end":6398.125,"text":"直接都是從校園裡面連過去全部的東西都是配息、高配息連高雄市教育局都進去了國立大學到今天連台灣大學都進去了這是速發部的這個通查網的一個案外案部長我們現在這種寄生上流2.0詐騙集團的連結寄生到不只是我們的速發部的連結連大專院校"},{"start":6400.507,"end":6401.488,"text":"謝謝主席緊急事態大家一起來幫忙謝謝"},{"start":6426.067,"end":6449.177,"text":"好 謝謝葛如君委員等一下我們在陳佩玉委員質詢完畢以後我們休息五分鐘那現在我們有請張雅琳委員質詢謝謝主席 我們有請部長好 有請鄭部長委員好"},{"start":6455.919,"end":6479.215,"text":"部長好,因為其實剛剛葛委員他也有去關心這個有關於美國通知我們有個性犯罪前科的美國籍人士的這個事件嘛那我剛剛有聽到部長說目前已經清查完畢了嘛所以是指說全台灣各縣市的教育局都已經清查完畢包含了學校、幼兒園、補習班、課後照顧中心全部清查完畢了嗎?"},{"start":6479.915,"end":6497.131,"text":"跟委員報告我們系統上是沒有所以這個因為他要任用有一定的規範然後包含良民證所以系統上他是沒有這個人的名字但是我們也邀請這一個要求這個各地方政府現在全面在清查"},{"start":6497.671,"end":6518,"text":"所以現在是各縣市政府還在清查中嗎?是所以因為這個議題其實是一些教長會長告訴我的啦所以大家非常關心這個題目所以我希望因為其實我記得一個臨時提案我希望教育部今天下午5點之前可以去公佈我們現在清查的一個進度好嗎?讓大家知道各縣市現在的狀態"},{"start":6519.181,"end":6540.395,"text":"可以嗎?是不是可以因為他各地方政府在清查需要一些時間是不是在明天下午明天下午前好明天下午前那我們知道各縣市是不是已經有查到幼兒園小學、國中、高中對還有這些補習班、課後照顧包含除了教室之外還有一些可能除工、清潔員等等的沒錯我想我們會列入重點"},{"start":6544.217,"end":6568.612,"text":"這部分真的要拜託部長一定要來詳盡的為我們所有的家長為我們所有的小孩來努力然後最後我也想要再請教部長我們是不是還有什麼方法可以更積極的來做呢例如我們是不是可以更加強的去宣導一定要聘用有工作簽證的人才可以部長那是我們首要的目的首要的目標"},{"start":6569.572,"end":6580.425,"text":"這個部分請加強宣導拜託拜託拜託部長那接下來就是我們要來談一下有關於今天的主題就是有關於電子煙的部分那待會請國健副署長可不可以也一起上來謝謝"},{"start":6588.279,"end":6609.537,"text":"根據世界衛生組織在2008年的報告指出即使並沒有任何的科學證據電子煙能有效幫忙戒煙其實在2019年WHO的全球煙潮報告也已經明確指出電子煙是對健康有傷害的2004年的報告發現在歐洲、中亞及加拿大15歲青少年有25%曾經抽煙30%曾經使用過電子煙"},{"start":6616.103,"end":6640.262,"text":"20%在過去30天內使用過電子煙所以我想這個數據清楚的告訴我們電子煙對全球所有的青少年是有非常嚴重的危害也是公共衛生非常重要的一環那我想請問部長您知道根據衛福部的調查目前大概有多少名的青少年正在使用這個電子煙嗎有多少人使用過電子煙"},{"start":6643.584,"end":6660.676,"text":"我所了解按比例來看國中大概有1萬9千人左右那其他的比例對不起我忘掉了好沒關係我跟部長講一下好了啦我們使用率從104年的1.9%現在已經達到了這個3.9%整體來說看那條黑色線那高中職的部分呢也已經來到了8.8%怎麼跳掉了"},{"start":6673.564,"end":6700.202,"text":"也來到了8.8那2021年的實際數字就是7.9萬人其實我們的數字也是一直不停的在上升非常的可觀那部長我相信您也知道就是說您肯定會對我們的青少年帶來嚴重的危害包含這個成癮性的問題啊青少年的大腦發展甚至也有可能會造成潛在的癌症甚至是肺部的一個疾病"},{"start":6701.063,"end":6705.796,"text":"那這邊再跟部長分享一份報告就是說韓國就是他們有一份研究報告是在"},{"start":6707.085,"end":6733.414,"text":"指出有3萬名的高中生使用電子煙罹患氣喘的人是不曾使用電子煙的兩倍以上所以電子煙可能也是一個嚴重的影響氣喘的一個重要因子但是就像剛剛葛委員其實有提到我們明明是禁止販售電子煙的而是大家只要拿出你的手機Google一查這就是頁面"},{"start":6734.474,"end":6747.083,"text":"就是有這麼多的違法的廣告衝刺在我們的網路上面讓我們的小孩可以輕易的取得所以我請教副署長我們現在其實有做查緝嘛 對不對"},{"start":6748.7,"end":6773.61,"text":"那我看的資料2024年我們衛生局網路稽查的商品件次跟實體稽查的電次、電價次高達279,521次這是今年的對今年的沒錯但是呢裁罰的件數也就是指違法行徑已經完成行政程序並且開提處分數的喔只有637件我想了解一下這個原因是什麼為什麼落差這麼大"},{"start":6774.09,"end":6777.212,"text":"跟委員報告這個52萬次的稽查次數、裁罰次數其實有包括了違反第15條中勘載、販售、使用等等我們目前截至10月30號為止我們的裁罰件數是1370件"},{"start":6792.483,"end":6794.404,"text":"這是從去年的3月22號到今年的10月30號那裁罰的金額到目前是9千萬不過因為現在的社會氛圍讓我們必須要更加緊我們的裁罰力道跟裁罰的速度所以跟委員報告我們大概在10月30號有邀集各縣市"},{"start":6810.588,"end":6818.831,"text":"致力溝通怎麼進行加速採取的速度與力道至於網路的部分違法案件數大概有3萬多目前都正在積極進行採取具體採取的件數到10月30日是74件金額是3290萬"},{"start":6829.855,"end":6832.296,"text":"因為剛才有這麼多委員在提醒所以我們會再跟教育部跟相關的部會來溝通怎麼樣在這件事情上做到更好的一些指責跟效果"},{"start":6857.379,"end":6884.486,"text":"我想具體的了解因為之前是有回到說我們的煙害防制組組長羅素英組長他是有講卡在行政程序就算我們今天邀集的各個部會我們邀集的地方縣市政府一起來會不會最後又卡在行政程序呢我們正在解套這個行政程序這個行政程序到底原因是什麼因為他需要約談然後需要做一些遞送的一些責任所以我們在建立一個更快速的SOP讓這個約談的速度加快"},{"start":6886.587,"end":6907.382,"text":"那這大概預計什麼時候會完成呢?我們一個月內給委員做報告好 謝謝那再來就是說因為其實我們民間也有反應希望可以編列更多的預算還有更多的稽查人力所以我想了解目前的一個進度是什麼?我們每一年給縣市的稽查人力的逐年都在上升以112年跟113年今年為例我們大概多了2500萬那明年114年如果預算能夠順利通過我們會多4000多萬給地方來做查處的動作"},{"start":6916.058,"end":6939.978,"text":"那人力的部分 含在裡面也含在裡面那這樣看起來跟總預算非常有關係那總預算跟我們的孩子的健康也息息相關啦所以還是希望就是在野黨的委員們可以一起來支持我們的總預算讓他可以儘速通關那再來就是說最後一個部分也想要請教一下部長跟副署長就是說針對我們目前這個新型態的煙品防制之前有說我們會做更多的宣導"},{"start":6941.519,"end":6967.772,"text":"那我想了解就是說目前的宣導的一個方案是不是有請我們的兒少相關的委員一起來討論呢有沒有這部分有沒有做我們的宣導包括是幼兒跟國小跟國中都有相關的這個專家來那上到國中之後會有兒少代表進來上到國中之後會有兒少代表就是國中的這個宣導素材兒少代表會進來那幼兒的部分會有家長以及相關的幼兒專職教師會過來媽媽"},{"start":6969.713,"end":6985.406,"text":"好那我想問一下那教育部的部分呢在校園的宣導跟委員報告我們在課程教材教學這方面事實上會按照這個不同的這一些年齡教育程度裡邊分別有一些鼓勵老師發展許多的這些宣導的一些教材跟課程"},{"start":6986.107,"end":6986.427,"text":"所以我們內部再來檢討"},{"start":7015.24,"end":7042.971,"text":"我希望就是說我們要確實的檢討啦不然我們用同樣過去的那個模式持續的進行我想我們人數還是會持續上升這個宣導等於有跟沒有是一樣的所以我要求因為我知道教育部也有兒少的代表好不好我們接下來我們應該會有新的宣導資料嘛對不對我想宣導資料我們一定會精進的邀請兒少專家一起進來來研商但是還真的是在源頭裡邊的一個阻斷我想那是一個非常重要的"},{"start":7043.171,"end":7063.607,"text":"我想我認同啦我們剛剛在做非常多的討論更專業的一個教學的一個工作我想因為青少年他們為什麼會抽電子煙常常都是因為同儕關係啦同儕的一些流行所以我們必須要讓他清楚的知道那個後果到底是什麼如果他不知道這個後果會對他的健康造成嚴重的影響的時候"},{"start":7064.668,"end":7090.413,"text":"他可能就會覺得啊好玩嘛很帥啊很酷啊我們試試看沒有關係所以這個部分一定要找青少年一起來討論這部分請部長跟署長、副署長一定要承諾我這件事情可以嗎沒有問題這一定好那相關的如果有一些宣導的措施跟宣導品的規劃的一個時程的話如果有的話也希望在一個月內之後送到一個月內送到我辦公室好不好謝謝"},{"start":7095.148,"end":7100.071,"text":"好,謝謝張雅琳委員謝謝部長接下來我們有請陳秀寶委員質詢謝謝主席有請鄭部長好,有請鄭部長"},{"start":7120.219,"end":7148.223,"text":"委員好部長早安那在進入今天的主題之前呢因為剛才雅琳委員有關心同樣的一個問題就是有一個有性犯罪前科的美籍人士露台那這個讓家長及教師們都非常非常的憂心那剛才部長您有回覆就是說我們有要求各縣市政府的教育局處來做這個清查的這個狀況那意思是說明天才會有清查的結果嗎"},{"start":7149.415,"end":7176.684,"text":"跟委員報告確實我們現在通令從系統上來講要聘用如果有系統上他一定會阻隔掉因為他是不符合資格的但是至於有一些他不必然是立案可能社區或者小型的這些許多的這些兒童的相關的一些補習班或者這個才藝的這些班那我們也希望這一個地方政府特別對兒少的這一個區塊一定要確實"},{"start":7179.065,"end":7179.986,"text":"中央跟地方合作希望明天下午的時候地方能夠"},{"start":7194.324,"end":7194.684,"text":"我們有請郭司長"},{"start":7225.591,"end":7239.665,"text":"市長好在10月底的時候本期這邊有跟吳啟明委員跟李坤城委員共同來舉行這個關於喪屍煙彈管制這個記者會那這個也呼籲相關的部會呢我們要重視一透明紙濫用這個問題"},{"start":7240.766,"end":7240.866,"text":"這個部份．"},{"start":7261.421,"end":7286.537,"text":"我們會請這個教育部也能夠加入這個我們平台所以下一次你們預警平台開會的時候就會邀請教育部了對會邀請後面會邀請他們其實因為我們整個防制毒品的這個安全網我們不能獨缺教育部我們應該更全面的跟每個部會都有訊息的交流所以司長這邊有承諾就是說我們下一次開會的時候教育部就會來參與"},{"start":7287.878,"end":7290.241,"text":"那因為教育部的這個校安通報呢他們有統計學生濫用藥物的這個情況如果有新興藥物在校園裡面流傳呢教育部也會將他們實際掌握的情形啊校園裡面的情況來供給各部會來參考"},{"start":7302.895,"end":7324.614,"text":"同時當然他們也會需要有第一手掌握新興毒品的這些訊息來提供學校端來注意所以說這個部分我們各部會就是在這個整個的這個平台的互動跟訊息交流是非常非常的重要所以希望說這個部分除了說你們邀請教育部進來之外我也希望說你們這個開會的這個"},{"start":7327.176,"end":7328.837,"text":"高監署是一個督導緝毒的小組,各地監署有一個緝毒執行小組,每3個月開一次。"},{"start":7343.925,"end":7362.223,"text":"每3月開一次我們除了邀執法機關之外都有邀教育局、當地縣市政府的教育局派員來參加請少年法庭委派庭長、候法官來參加在那個會議上就有關於讀請的分析、查詢的狀況我們都分析給來參與的教育局的人員"},{"start":7368.249,"end":7385.319,"text":"希望他們在查辦上能夠多加的協助因為進入校園這一塊其實蠻敏感的有些學校蠻抗拒的那這一部分其實在各地檢署這個每三個月就會開一次因為我待過新竹、台中、雲林我們每三個月就開一次會邀這些單位來"},{"start":7387.58,"end":7413.813,"text":"好 謝謝施展尤其現在依托米紙的替代品替代攤名在中國很流行那我們要預防說未來是不是在台灣也會氾濫所以這個跨部會這個橫向的聯繫是非常的重要也希望說法務部這邊跟教育部要緊密的合作好 那您請回另外我也希望說警政署在查獲依托米紙中的稀有或持"},{"start":7415.194,"end":7426.044,"text":"持有或吸食的人數裡面你們要去做統計年齡、教育程度、職業那將這個資料能夠交給教育部跟國建署作為反讀宣導的依據那接下來呢部長您"},{"start":7436.84,"end":7443.564,"text":"部長,今天的主題,專報的主題就是本席在總質詢的時候的題目本席在總質詢的時候有說過我們是很擔憂有毒品的這個煙油透過電子煙進入校園那我們先來看一下國建署這邊調查的資料從107年到110年,國高中生使用電子煙的比例其實是節節攀升的國中生從107年的1.9%到110年的3.9%"},{"start":7462.574,"end":7486.05,"text":"那高中學生又從107年的3.4%到110年的8.8%這樣的狀況其實是真的讓人家很憂心再來看一下關於大專院校學生使用電子煙的狀況教育部在112年前各校查填違法使用的這個情況調查的結果人數只有1536人使用部長您覺得這個數字是有確實的反映事實嗎?"},{"start":7488.585,"end":7508.824,"text":"我想如果以衛福部的數據跟教育部內部的當然它有一定的一些落差那本來就是說在調查、問卷調查裡面當然難免會有一定的誤差會有一定的落差的原因是什麼?那個部長您有想過嗎?其實本期這邊要跟教育部"},{"start":7510.205,"end":7511.426,"text":"根據國建署的調查的統計跟教育部這個來比對差這麼多部長您覺得是什麼原因"},{"start":7537.606,"end":7564.952,"text":"跟委員報告有比較我直接的看這個數據我認為青少年他在抽煙電子煙可能發生在校外的比例是比較高的因為學校裡邊他主要上課讀上課嘛時間排的比較緊湊然後他放學以後可能在社區在其他的地方學校的老師終究在這個部分他還是會關心青少年的一個發展所以"},{"start":7565.532,"end":7566.293,"text":"部長您的意思是說在校園內發生跟校園外發生這樣子的跟事實數據落差還是有關係的那這邊齁"},{"start":7581.194,"end":7602.077,"text":"我也要跟部長您提醒其實這個數字反映出來就是說現場教學現場的老師他們要做這個電子煙的查查其實是有困難的那困難的原因就是說其實我們教育部以及我們衛生主管單位有沒有針對校園內的查緝做一個一套的一致性的規範讓學校可以遵循"},{"start":7602.817,"end":7622.526,"text":"本席在總質詢的時候有建議過教育部我們應該連合橫向的連合社政警政衛政這個系統我們做一個一套可以是一致性的這個可以遵循的規範讓學校有這樣的依據那但是教育部這邊目前是不是沒有一個這樣子的機制可以依循"},{"start":7624.022,"end":7624.042,"text":"部長"},{"start":7636.724,"end":7644.527,"text":"本席要求的是我們教育部這邊針對校園電子煙處理的流程跟機制而不是對外的所以在這邊我要建議第一個我們應該針對學生使用電子煙查緝通報裁罰有個流程是明確一致的流程第二個是希望說我們來明確規範是不是通報家長我們在什麼時候通報家長第一次查到的時候還是第二次查到的時候還是在什麼時候通知家長是最適當的"},{"start":7663.174,"end":7691.935,"text":"第三個是不是同步的通報地方衛生單位我們也要一致的標準我們是抓到了查到了就通報還是在怎樣的情況下會通報我想委員所提醒的我們都會在校園的陰害防治裡邊我們把它納入然後在實施辦法裡邊來進行這個部分我要求教育部你們要盡快的把這個相關的這樣的流程這樣的規範訂出來有個依據學校的老師他開採一個有這樣子的SOP可以依循"},{"start":7692.375,"end":7692.715,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":7722.775,"end":7725.157,"text":"我完全同意委員的說法希望是有互動式的而且讓學生有意見可以反饋是"},{"start":7750.653,"end":7754.816,"text":"現在部長那接下來給我一點時間我想請國建署我們請國建署委員好國建署今天是假副署長那請問署長呢署長這個因公出國那在上兩個禮拜前的專報他也出國是的"},{"start":7777.079,"end":7779.242,"text":"因為也是會有家長們覺得說這麼重要的專報為什麼"},{"start":7793.602,"end":7795.843,"text":"反映說為什麼署長都沒有到場是不是覺得說他不夠積極還是不夠關心沒有署長在這個出國之前有跟我們充分的討論那這邊因為我只接了一點點時間我想針對國建署這邊我還是要提醒你們在報告裡面其實有寫說針對這個網路販售的這個稽查"},{"start":7810.97,"end":7830.66,"text":"但是因為現在真的電子煙取得是非常非常的容易在學生之間會流傳很輕易取得的這個管道而且真的隨便上網搜尋就可以查到這個購買的網站喔那所以這邊要提醒喔國建署這邊要更積極的研議你們稽查的方式那如果你們有進一步的這樣子的措施我也希望說你可以供給我辦公室查考"},{"start":7836.53,"end":7840.572,"text":"好,我們謝謝陳秀寶委員。接下來我們有請陳培鈺委員質詢。謝謝主席。有請教育部、衛福部、法務部、書發部、內政部、警政署。謝謝。好,以上麻煩列席。委員好。"},{"start":7863.154,"end":7880.84,"text":"好部長好所有人都關心志工但是大家都忽略一件事情我已經跟體育署溝通過很多次了我們台灣其實有社區運動俱樂部而且絕對超過千個在足球籃球棒球各式各樣的球類如果今天這個"},{"start":7881.9,"end":7910.772,"text":"信騷疑似犯他進入任何社區運動俱樂部是在部長您剛剛回答所有委員的平台上是查不到的也是收不到你們公文的因為你們收到你們公文的會是學校、補習班、課後班你們所有有立案的團體都收得到但是社區運動部是沒有立案的所以部長我只是要告訴你會有這個很大的漏洞如果這個人又擅長於運動如果剛好有社區運動俱樂部的人剛好要爭教練"},{"start":7911.852,"end":7928.478,"text":"全各式各樣成人的指導員在旁邊然後剛好社區運動部主責的人又沒有看到新聞他就會進入社區運動俱樂部我只是舉其中一個例子之前我一直在跟體育署溝通為什麼社區運動俱樂部應該在你們的政策視野當中現在這個人可能就會是因為過往不在你們的政策視野當中你們認為那個是全民運動你們認為那是不應該納管的甚至這些大人不應該被你們"},{"start":7938.661,"end":7960.749,"text":"立有所謂的兒少工作證所以他就有機會進入不在所有您剛剛回覆委員的平台中他可能就因著運動教育在社區俱樂部裡頭殘害我們的學生部長我知道這題您沒有辦法回答我只是要用我在立法院問證這一年半的經驗告訴你有太多的現場的漏洞正在"},{"start":7961.289,"end":7981.537,"text":"您的幕僚可能沒有跟您報告或是在過往您不熟悉的業務範圍當中他可能就殘害到我們的孩子以上這個部分我就先簡單說明到這邊但是我還是要感謝部長你們積極的動作跟回應確實可以給家長一個交代但是我剛說的漏洞沒有人注意到要拜託部長有沒有辦法我們亡羊補牢部長您覺得呢"},{"start":7983.424,"end":8005.441,"text":"我想如何讓這個兒少有一個更好的一個成長環境部長我時間有限我時間有限你覺得我剛內體怎麼辦再來看怎麼樣來精進這畫面的一個防制至少在這個個案上我不確定我們時間來不來得及但是未來運動不要升格那現在體育署一定相關很多事情會跟你們討論那拜託部長"},{"start":8007.443,"end":8034.671,"text":"全民運動這件事情社區運動俱樂部這件事情務必要放入未來的政策視野當中還有相關的人員的法規範相關的證照制度以確保我們兒少的安全這件事情非常非常的重要由這個個案再度凸顯那也就是為什麼我今天額外還要花時間提醒大家這件事情所有的平台我要再次強調教育部跟衛福部兒少法49條你們現在所有的平台還有幼少法的平台都找不到這個人"},{"start":8035.811,"end":8064.294,"text":"因為他不用跑去任何要立案的單位他就可以接觸到我們的小孩這是現在最可怕的事情而且他可能就發生了也拜託委員會後能夠把這個名單給我部長我沒有名單我的意思是說那沒關係體育署絕對可以給您關於社區俱樂部的各式各樣的困境那有沒有辦法要嘛是透過"},{"start":8065.815,"end":8092.342,"text":"體育署現在已經有的跟很多協會或者是很多社區運動俱樂部聯繫的管道你們趕快發公文甚至用你們原有的人際網絡趕快把相關的資訊帶給社區運動俱樂部因為我相信是有一些聯絡的可能性但是部長我真的很感謝你已經提到了平台所以確實教育部有掌握到困境但我說的更大的漏洞是不在平台裡面的社區運動俱樂部"},{"start":8093.766,"end":8112.936,"text":"我們來做我想我們會在運動部的一個成立之前所有的相關的法令規章我們希望能夠更周延那今天這個個案我們再一起來想辦法我只是提醒部長這個漏洞很大那很多委員都講了我就先快速切到一個問題這個買得很快然後很好買孩子們人際網路會分享實體網路實體或者是網路都很好買但是我現在有發現一個很大的困境跟部長討論"},{"start":8123.722,"end":8149.921,"text":"記出重罰這看起來沒有用那我只是想問假設有一天有家長發現了有這個孩子們已經在買了然後家長想要進行對這些網站進行檢舉身為一個家長部長你會建議我要打電話給誰或者是後面相關部會你們可不可以告訴我我身為一個家長我在一個網站上看到了這個非常fancy的畫面然後只有小小的字提醒我們的孩子有尼古丁那我身為家長我可以如何檢舉"},{"start":8151.659,"end":8166.022,"text":"報告委員,這件事情如果家長有發現有做截圖的動作可以敬送我各縣市的衛生單位所以請家長找衛生單位這是一條路這是一條路怎麼做"},{"start":8167.023,"end":8182.375,"text":"他打電話我在台北市我是台北市民所以我打給台北市1999不只1999還有各他們的社區健康中心把圖片或者用email的方式或者用LINE的方式提供給我們的衛生單位我們就會進行實體的約詢跟裁罰所以家長能夠做的是這個事情那請問警政單位呢"},{"start":8190.509,"end":8210.494,"text":"指正單位可以教我們家長什麼方法嗎?如果我看到我的孩子的電腦上出現這個,我很擔心,我跟孩子也溝通了,我身為家長,我想要盡社會責任,身為一個公民,我想要盡社會責任,我可以做什麼事情?我想這些部分,電子煙部分還是要行業管這些部分,但如果說他有要"},{"start":8211.491,"end":8235.954,"text":"提到這個問題是他檢舉管道很多啦他如果有跟我們110來講我想我們也會協助他到鄉地的相關的主管機關來做立案謝謝長官你講這樣一般這樣聽不懂啦你剛剛整句話都沒有告訴他他可以去哪裡檢舉跟報案剛剛衛福部講得很清楚嘛1999然後相關的衛生單位就會收到檢舉那就法務部的立場呢或是警政署的立場呢你們怎麼看"},{"start":8237.014,"end":8245.729,"text":"我身為一般家長我到底可以怎麼做這個才是現在最大的問題啊我知道我們相關煙害防治法也修了我都知道衛福部也在討論加熱煙品這個評審會議我都知道現在我就問我是家長我該怎麼做"},{"start":8254.11,"end":8268.023,"text":"我至少要檢舉嘛 對不對所以我們只有衛福部那個管道就只有衛福部那個部分好 所以我們可以這樣對外向家長呼籲就現行的法規我們只能走衛福部那條路徑是 確定喔"},{"start":8274.406,"end":8293.755,"text":"確定?好那我們就這樣說可是我還是覺得這個有很大的問題不過沒關係我們會後再來討論另外一個從這個題目長出來另外一個小題目部長你一定不知道在教育部呢大專院校厭害防制工作參考指引問答集裡面在113年6月18號修訂你們會在新生健檢的時候實行"},{"start":8297.637,"end":8321.298,"text":"一氧化碳檢測其實這個事情呢為什麼是113年6月18你們才頒布呢其實在過往你們其實曾經就想要對大專院校學生做這個事情可是當時被發現沒有相關法規範然後你們是不是就做了這個事情就是要學生就是對著那個偵測器土器這件事情部長你覺得這個做法目前有沒有相關的問題這有法律授權嗎"},{"start":8328.376,"end":8328.636,"text":"新北市市長"},{"start":8358.436,"end":8359.457,"text":"請教育部主席"},{"start":8378.395,"end":8392.067,"text":"運動部這件事情從煙害防制我想要談我們如何讓我們的年輕人看見我們的主管機關對於煙害防制真的是有作為有價值觀有核心價值我們來看"},{"start":8393.268,"end":8411.082,"text":"今年的日本奧運體操國手宮田生子因為被發現未成年吸煙他可是一定會得金牌的人結果他就被踢出日本代表隊因此日本果然有在體操就沒有得到金牌我看到日本人在想的是把教育跟法律放在奪牌之前"},{"start":8411.522,"end":8437.663,"text":"不是只是為了徵金奪銀還是讓這個放任這個選手出去比賽因為我再強調一次他是一個未成年的奪牌選手但是反觀我們臺灣足協在5月16號呢針對U17三名選手帶酒精回宿舍營用當時足協在5月16公布懲處退訓那當時還有教練團集訓期間外出跟廠商喝酒只有書面警告部長請您記得一下"},{"start":8439.005,"end":8457.27,"text":"部長你聽我說5月16竹協這樣公告下一張10月22號竹協緊急在自己的網站上放了一個公文說為了備戰10月份的U17男子亞洲盃會外賽教練團認為戰力上急需兩位選手加入就是我剛剛說的"},{"start":8458.63,"end":8482.316,"text":"五月被退訓的那三個選手帶酒精飲料回宿舍的那三個選手其中有兩個又被撈回國家代表隊說是因為戰力需求我覺得非常荒謬的是我們所有的立法院委員在意孩子未成年吸菸喝酒的相關法規範相關政策相關教育宣導相關部會今天還為了這個議題"},{"start":8488.418,"end":8514.015,"text":"這麼多行政院的官員坐在這邊但是我們的足協由體育署是主管機關的足協卻可以說因為戰力需求再把這兩個未成年喝酒的球員拉入球隊部長我跟你報告5月他公佈把這兩個小孩退訓10月他又公佈拉回來比賽但是足協其實早在8月就開了相關的會議"},{"start":8516.252,"end":8530.06,"text":"5月、8月、10月這到底發生了什麼事情而且這個事情為什麼我今天一定要花時間在這裡講當我們在講菸酒防制的時候我們在花這麼多力氣的時候部長啊,你的足鞋在扯你後腿部長我講到這裡你有什麼感想我要講的是為什麼我一定要拿日本那個國手他是可以拿奧運金牌的"},{"start":8539.488,"end":8551.837,"text":"但是日本決定因為未成年吸菸喝酒他們決定站在教育端站在法律合法端我們不要為了爭經奪義讓這個選手代表日本出去比賽但我們台灣的足協卻做這樣的事情"},{"start":8552.918,"end":8553.618,"text":"我想日本的一個做法值得我們來學習"},{"start":8577.529,"end":8581.511,"text":"主席這題你怎麼辦已經過了其實比賽已經過了但我還是要提出來講明確的來要求各單項協會一定要例行這樣的一些規範"},{"start":8589.465,"end":8608.793,"text":"部長你一定不知道這件事情對不對不清楚對但是我剛講的邏輯部長你一定認同我們大園在這邊辛辛苦苦做煙害防制的教育啊、宣導啊、立法法規範大家有非常多的討論不要說衝突大家有非常多討論大家有非常多的價值跟信念但是你的足協在扯你後腿而且他就是未成年的球員"},{"start":8610.558,"end":8639.481,"text":"但反觀日本那我們未來升格為運動部之後我們一定可以做得更好更多讓我們的隊員、球員們、未成年球員相信你們大人真的說一套做一套這件事情不要再發生了然後也讓我們球員家長相信我們是公正公平的我們是有一定的法規範在限制這些事情不能再只是為了戰力需求這件事情而且竟然是有足協發出這樣的公文我完全沒有辦法接受更不要講跟他同隊的隊員我不知道體育署你可不可以接受"},{"start":8640.356,"end":8645.973,"text":"提議署長你可以接受嗎?報告委員這一點我們已經要求主席絕對不可以再犯這其實我們也不能接受的"},{"start":8647.393,"end":8675.913,"text":"謝謝署長的回應你也不能接受對不對所以我相信你們可以更積極你們其實有非常多行政手段可以跟主協好好溝通但是我認為主協一直以來之所以這麼囂張我必須用囂張這兩個字我真的覺得我們體育署的管制力道真的還要再加強或者是溝通哪裡出了問題要拜託不然從今天題目談下來我真的覺得如果今天有小孩球隊小孩看到我們今天所有委員會的質詢真的會覺得你們大人說一套做一套啊"},{"start":8676.753,"end":8677.013,"text":"謝謝陳培鈺委員接下來我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":8726.977,"end":8727.137,"text":"主席"},{"start":8743.067,"end":8743.247,"text":"本會議會主席"},{"start":8762.624,"end":8765.125,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8790.243,"end":8790.644,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":8812.643,"end":8812.743,"text":"主席"},{"start":8838.971,"end":8839.311,"text":"主席"},{"start":8850.669,"end":8850.989,"text":"主席"},{"start":8874.234,"end":8874.274,"text":"主席"},{"start":8904.309,"end":8904.97,"text":"致詢議員致詢議員"},{"start":8921.633,"end":8922.153,"text":"這個應該是裡面要搜的"},{"start":8951.428,"end":8952.669,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8975.282,"end":9001.988,"text":"臨時會議臨時會議"},{"start":9014.766,"end":9015.127,"text":"吳佩儀委員"},{"start":9036.634,"end":9038.376,"text":"法務部警政署速發部"},{"start":9050.486,"end":9075.238,"text":"今天我們的專案報告是電子煙入侵校園危害青少年我們防制相關作為的檢討涉及到很多的部會那剛剛前面的質詢很多都提到了電子煙目前青少年使用是相當的氾濫那根據我們的法規電子煙它是屬於類煙品這個屬於危害防制法目前我們是行政法則但是其中我特別關注的"},{"start":9075.618,"end":9080.941,"text":"就是電子煙含毒品電子煙油參入毒品這個就是屬於毒品危害防制條例那主管機關也就是我們的法務部我想這是我們目前非常重要一個新興毒品器材的重點"},{"start":9093.288,"end":9109.184,"text":"那面對這種新興毒品我們汽茶呢一個你向上要溯源嘛向下你要斷根嘛對不對那我尤其是前陣子我看到在我們甚至有我們在協助汽茶的這個員警"},{"start":9110.365,"end":9114.569,"text":"因為有民眾使用了這一個我們剛剛講的喪屍煙彈也就是宜托米紙這個目前是列管為三級毒品那有毒後駕駛我們有員警在器材當中不幸殉職也有民眾是因為其他人"},{"start":9129.662,"end":9135.005,"text":"獨厚駕駛而被撞死的所以我覺得這對我們社會危害性相當之高那我看我們警政署在這個月在10月的衛環委員會也有過專案報告想請問一下目前你們針對這個喪屍煙彈棄查的情形有沒有一個初步的結果"},{"start":9155.68,"end":9172.086,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們上次煙彈我們事實上在它還沒有列為三級毒品的時候我們就開始做一個查緝動作了是那我們從7月1號到10月14號我們查獲的上次煙毒案有1828件這是查獲的對 是查獲的案件 是那"},{"start":9177.813,"end":9182.815,"text":"有沒有人次的數字人次是2207人對 這數字光是這105天之內就這麼的高我幫你換算一下平均一天等於是17件所以你不能只有專案期間10月14號之後我們目前還有沒有持續在統計"},{"start":9194.68,"end":9218.05,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們現在是我們一個查緝的重點我們除了專門查緝現在在安基專我們也是列為一個重點的一個查緝工作好你們這個查緝的情形還是要持續來統計數字我們才會知道說他是攀升還是我們的查緝作為是有效在減緩的但我看到一個案件8月的時候也是我們警政署破獲的"},{"start":9219.37,"end":9222.533,"text":"他是集團式的在販售上市煙彈光是這一案你們查獲的數量高達了15000顆黑市的價格高達了3000萬所以這個明顯的就是集團式的在販毒然後賣到怎麼樣呢賣到有自己的商標跟品牌"},{"start":9239.588,"end":9239.908,"text":"這個案子最主要我想"},{"start":9258.021,"end":9274.373,"text":"我們在整個企圖的工作上網路刑查還是我們一個很重要的工作那這次這個案子是我們同仁在網路刑查上發現網路上找到的對然後我們就進行了相對的一個偵查所以他有自己的網站嗎他的網站我們是網站當時有沒有去封網"},{"start":9275.322,"end":9283.306,"text":"有去從這個偵查程序上去做偵查當中就先封網了嗎?因為這個網後查出來這個是在大陸那要這個網易要斷解目前我們在行這個司法程序來辦理所以當時查器當中有沒有封網?來書發部可不可以回答"},{"start":9300.523,"end":9306.267,"text":"我剛講的8月這一案喔已經移送的這一案喔當時有沒有封網請用麥克風"},{"start":9311.025,"end":9336.984,"text":"到目前為止我們沒有接到這部分的封網不過基本上這部分它可能有涉及到幾個問題可以去協助處理的第一個就是各平台有社群守則這不是平台這個是網站有的是網站我現在講的就是這一個單獨網站基本上這個還是要回到法律程序他們現在已經進行法律程序去處理了以上報告"},{"start":9337.825,"end":9347.874,"text":"好 這個呢 如果是按照我們的兒少性剝削的也是一樣 跟平台、速發部你們有一個流程嘛在查緝辦案當中 因為他已經違法這是三級毒品啊 署長 辦案當中就應該要封網所以如果說我現在請教速發部 如果法務部寫一個文給你們 你們可不可以封網"},{"start":9358.523,"end":9371.13,"text":"報告委員是這樣子﹖目前所有﹖你們可以請網路資訊中心來處理嗎?基本上現在所有﹖你先凍結他的網域嗎?可不可以?基本上我沒辦法凍結他的網域﹖因為TW應該只能處理點TW份那至於您提的﹖對,我講的就是點TW﹖這個不是點TW﹖假設是的話﹖假設是的話"},{"start":9375.452,"end":9377.434,"text":"現在這個署長我告訴你剛剛我講了這個8月的案件他的網站到現在為止還在網路上"},{"start":9398.803,"end":9404.448,"text":"而且他強調說人家賣到有品牌了強調說他才是正版的千萬不能去買其他品牌的然後他強調什麼呢24小時之內我就給你送達所以啊這個一定要去封網你封網你們現在還需要研擬什麼樣的機制來跟我們討論你們剛剛講到了嘛署長新興這個我們講的這個新興毒品不只是三級我們有沒有在研擬來把它提升成二級"},{"start":9426.581,"end":9452.65,"text":"他已經太放爛了嘛上司煙彈這一個我們有在研擬從三級提到二級有沒有在研擬誰可以回答跟委員報告這個毒品的審議在法務部是8月份行政院公告你的麥克風請靠近一點8月份行政院公告伊托米子為三級毒品但是我們發現社會的這個泛濫性危害性蠻大的所以我們在10月21號就發供應給各機關在收集資料是"},{"start":9456.231,"end":9479.969,"text":"11月14號我們將會召開獨省審議委員會準備來這個審議這個伊東米子要不要把它列為二級獨品那除了伊東米子之外因為它有周邊的類似的獨品就是美東米子跟伊東帕子也會同時在11月14號就下禮拜會做一個全面性檢討要不要把它升級為"},{"start":9480.869,"end":9496.103,"text":"多病的管制從三級升到二級三級的最低程度是七年以上二級是十年以上你要評估不是隨便評估嘛一定是你們發現它有所影響主要指標社會安全危害性以及它的氾濫性"},{"start":9497.728,"end":9501.27,"text":"倘若這個問題確實是我們現在這麼嚴重的社會問題的話封網啊你這個網站民眾隨手可得隨時可以買更不用說我們的青少年剛剛討論那麼多你這個溯源沒有處理沒有辦法來根本的斷絕所以我希望法務部、警政署、速發部趕快我們來討論出一個流程一旦我們警政署我們的這個情勢警察局發現有這樣的網站的時候趕快去封網啊"},{"start":9526.944,"end":9527.165,"text":"請教育部部長"},{"start":9548.564,"end":9551.966,"text":"部長我想要跟您關心的是10月的時候有個報導指出我們臺北醫學大學有一名消性的教師他是性騷擾的慣伴並且也經過學校的性評的調查也確實屬實那這個教師目前是已經被解聘了不過我們去回顧他的流程因為這個老師呢不只是在學校任職他同時也是我們國科會研究計畫的主持人及共同主持人"},{"start":9575.179,"end":9576.202,"text":"這個案件是在去年12月的時候北一的性評會就已經調查確認有性評案件了"},{"start":9584.491,"end":9610.417,"text":"所以按照我們目前國科會的法規有性平違反性平法規的人就不得擔任國科會的計畫主持人可是呢這個老師去年學校已經調查出有性平案件結果他同樣繼續去年國科會的計畫還繼續的主持不只是去年主持到今年7月還在主持然後呢今年學校還讓他去申請新的國科會研究計畫"},{"start":9612.62,"end":9616.05,"text":"部長有沒有瞭解過這個案件我看到了報導"},{"start":9618.447,"end":9623.008,"text":"這個不能只有看到報道我認為這個問題相當的嚴重因為我們確實已經調查有性平案件了那你解聘需要一定的程序我們也要給老師他既有的這個權益是要的你這個程序一定是需要時間可是他應該在調查屬實的當下就應該要立即通報國科會去解除他國科會研究計畫主持人的身份是不是這個樣子"},{"start":9646.252,"end":9649.994,"text":"是嘛 有點頭但是當時學校卻沒有做學校沒有通報國科會還讓老師又去申請新的計畫計畫主持人有計畫研究助理有相關的團隊因為這個性平安禁它不是一案而已它是多個人來檢舉喔所以你們讓他在這麼長的時間裡面有這麼多有更多的機會可以來接觸對 所以我請教育部"},{"start":9671.127,"end":9689.21,"text":"來去了解整個時間序列按照我對法官的了解應當是在去年的12月北一的性平案件調查組織出來的時候就立刻要解除他國科會主持人的身份而且不可能讓他再去申請新的案件請教育部來進行了解並且把這個過程讓我知道好不好我們來了解然後這個我們要責成這個學校一定要務必要檢討改進"},{"start":9697.572,"end":9707.119,"text":"是 這個國科會是負責計畫的審查但是教育部是我們學校裡面性平安全的守護者要請你們嚴格來把關好 謝謝好 謝謝吳佩奕委員接下來我們有請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":9728.045,"end":9746.833,"text":"謝謝主席我今天會請教教育部、國界署、數發部、體育署、交政署教育部、衛福部、數發部、證證署"},{"start":9754.753,"end":9756.234,"text":"衛福部、教育部、速發部"},{"start":9771.876,"end":9785.416,"text":"委員好謝謝部長我們也很感謝昭緯設定今天這樣一個題目把它排進議程讓我們對於提供學校良好的環境這個是我們學習的一個基礎這件事情我們要鍥而不捨的來做一個處理"},{"start":9789.14,"end":9813.952,"text":"這個部分其實是我對永續性的這個發展很重視的所以在一開始就是這個電子煙進入校園今天在前面幾位委員就各個層面也都跟大家做一些請教跟建議那我這邊提到的是當然這個電子煙其實一般人也感受不到在校園裡面最直接像教安人員、學務主任、輔導主任都可以在很短的時間內知道尤其是在偏鄉也是"},{"start":9815.372,"end":9829.846,"text":"非都會的學校現在已經都蠻嚴重的但是我們從國建署110年青少年吸菸的行為調查顯示目前使用率已經上升到3.9%很高國中是3.9% 高中值是8.8%"},{"start":9833.709,"end":9857.959,"text":"早上有很多人都提到那已經將近七八萬名甚至已經快到九萬的這個青少年使用電子煙所以這個問題很嚴重但是呢我們就算罰還的部分很高一萬元但是這個三部政策我想請教一下部長不嘗試、不購買、不推薦那在你們那個宣導跟施行防制後整個電子煙的使用率是不是有降低"},{"start":9860.066,"end":9874.771,"text":"我們從學校的一個通報裡邊它事實上有微乎的增加但是相當大概就是有微乎的增加所以你們還要再努力接下來在世衛組織WHO提出來的104個戒煙的理由當中指出當然我們都知道煙對其他人有影響但是電子煙對於孩子腦部的影響也非常的大對一般人應該也有一個常態性的影響"},{"start":9888.795,"end":9912.528,"text":"所以,凝固煙的成癮風險非常高,大概有九成研究指出,電子煙不比吸食煙的族群肺部疾病來得少發生率好像有高出4.36倍電子煙是很重要的一個影響身體健康的原因所以在這個整個校園危害防制的實施計畫"},{"start":9914.009,"end":9914.65,"text":"世界衛生組織及國際實證對於青少年使用臨床藥物戒菸這件事還沒有實證"},{"start":9936.463,"end":9945.192,"text":"所以大部分的研究都是指出要透過戒菸輔導、心理諮商跟戒菸教育來協助他離開菸品所以我們除了跟我們的戒菸專線裡面來跟更多的合作用結構式的方式來協助"},{"start":9957.145,"end":9982.282,"text":"如果尋求戒煙服務的這個小朋友們怎麼樣有結構式來戒煙另外您剛提到的全國現在有將近3000多個醫療院所有提供戒煙服務我們可以做戒煙衛教但是小朋友對藥物的部分還需要更多實證所以3000多所的這個醫療機構是可以協助我們的青少年在戒煙的服務上面的戒煙衛教可以一起來做的"},{"start":9983.1,"end":9997.494,"text":"好的謝謝您這邊的回應所以這樣聽起來我們在實證還沒有確定之前也有一些沒有依循的困難對不對但是已經雖然沒有藥物的部分但是衛教或者心理輔導的部分我們是持續在做"},{"start":9998.51,"end":10001.491,"text":"好的謝謝您這邊的回應所以這其實也點出我待會要講的一個問題那接下來就是在這個國建署和您辦理的這個吸煙調查裡面您其實剛才有講到那個壓力的疏解就心理的這個部分是很大的一個原因"},{"start":10014.977,"end":10034.495,"text":"這個部分其實也點出教育部我們在這個心理輔導老師的不足這個其實這個議題在我們委員會裡面也一直提到第一個是這個心輔教師的這個不足還有輔導相關專業的人數的這個不足其次是就是這個專業要對應的人太多的那比例太高了"},{"start":10034.795,"end":10038.837,"text":"這件事情的很重要一個根本就是大家很多的比例是為了紓解壓力"},{"start":10056.145,"end":10072.223,"text":"書籍壓力的情況下這個其實教育部門要去檢討一下整體的政策為什麼大家的好心都讓整個社會包括老師包括學生壓力都很大那其次是那其次的解決就是那需要有人來幫助嘛結果心服老師或者是輔導相關的專業也不夠所以在這邊我提出幾個數據你們思考一下啦"},{"start":10078.009,"end":10086.833,"text":"42%的學生沒有心腹還有這個議題的這個相關宣導活動就你今天講的這個電子煙的議題然後再來35.7%曾經在輔導課上談過相關的議題那27.7%的學生有聽過專人的演講再來不到20%只有19.1%的學生有導師在班上宣傳所以這個數據也提供你們一個參考"},{"start":10102.142,"end":10102.202,"text":"主席"},{"start":10132.562,"end":10135.223,"text":"教育部或衛福部有要針對這個部分做一些回應嗎?我想確實這一個看起來我們這一個老師因為社會在進步科技快速的在精進我們老師其實許多的教學包括我們臺灣的教育普及"},{"start":10154.172,"end":10157.154,"text":"對老師的教學品質確實他會有一個更高的一些更多的一些期待應該在高校或者是所有的教育體系你應該都非常清楚"},{"start":10175.768,"end":10197.616,"text":"所以本席這邊點出來了壓力是這整件事情的來源然後其次是紓解壓力的人或處理壓力的人也不夠這個是教育部還有體建署也是相關的單位沒有關係 這個部分請你們好好的研議好不好要不然我們會一天到晚一直在處理這些問題所以系統性的問題請你們注意好嗎"},{"start":10202.038,"end":10207.943,"text":"接下來我很快的講一下這跟速發不有關但我不知道有沒有時間讓你來回應其實剛才有幾位委員針對速發的部分給你們提出了一些建言那這個網路時代我們國人平均使用網路的時間是7.14小時那高於全球的6.37小時那這個跟今天有關的是"},{"start":10224.918,"end":10246.229,"text":"五成二接受調查的孩童跟青少年比較喜歡透過螢幕來閱讀三成二喜歡用傳統的紙本來閱讀這就代表目前我們是沒有辦法逃離這樣一個狀況所以跟今天有關的就是在你們怎麼去處理這個嚴格把關的議題除了網路監測平台以外那是不是還有更積極的配套措施"},{"start":10252.349,"end":10269.53,"text":"報告委員有關於教育部的自動安全部分應該會在部裡頭再處理所以我想我們一定會跟教育部一起同理合作把學生的自動安全的部分能夠處理到希望能夠更進步以上那還是希望你們抓住重點來處理解決系統性的問題"},{"start":10270.811,"end":10295.887,"text":"那接下來是校園暴力我很快的講一下那2023年其實整年度高中值的暴力事件已經26442件那高於2022年的1萬件那平均每天有71件暴力那事實上目前在政策預防層面其實好像很少這個系統性的政策與指引那分析處理好像也不太完整所以我在提醒面對暴力事件去年的12月25號的校園暴力那應該"},{"start":10299.61,"end":10313.319,"text":"其實這個問題的終結就是你們不應該全數讓老師去對應這整個暴力事件的這個它成為這裡面最重要的一個第一現場所以很多因素是不利於老師的那我不知道你們這個部分"},{"start":10315.24,"end":10341.034,"text":"我沒太多時間讓你們回答但是我講一個啦就是說偏差行為的少年離開了少年關護所或矯正學校請問誰要來承接那處罰的少年離開關護所1到3月那很多處罰的少年認為關進去也沒關係啊那請問對於那個遵守規則的學生怎麼去處理呢他們怎麼去因應呢這就好像 有人有問題嘛反正他有問題沒有問題"},{"start":10342.615,"end":10362.661,"text":"所以我是不是可以製造問題?會變成這種心態?部長跟委員報告有一些這個暴力這個違反法令規範的我們事實上是各縣市都現在有建立了一個過渡性的一個教育機構也就是說有一些相關的一些課程在做介入的"},{"start":10362.841,"end":10363.321,"text":"法務部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長"},{"start":10380.409,"end":10393.543,"text":"體育署本賢想請教在電子煙的防治你們有什麼作為?我不知道你會不會覺得很遠但是應該很多像研究都顯示出透過運動可以保持身體健康也能夠讓心理健康"},{"start":10395.865,"end":10424.134,"text":"那當然這有一些生理性的直接影響是有被調查出來的所以本席剛才講到紓解壓力其實體育署這個部分可以再跟積極的作為在電子煙這個部分也好校園暴力也好那你們怎麼樣有積極的具體的作為讓全民運動也某種程度的來負擔跟解除這樣子的一個問題體育署 嗯報告委員您剛剛已經把答案講出來了其實這個就是我們現在在努力規劃的方向"},{"start":10424.645,"end":10448.457,"text":"是是是,但是不要只跟本席說那個運動部要成立了齁然後那個就能夠解決一些問題成立了之後呢你們的責任越大如果這些問題在過程當中都沒有好好討論跟實際的作為去檢視相關的問題那個問題還是會層出不窮而且可能還更大好最後就本席做一個進度請問那個金融國家羽球中心齁人家奧運得完了之後呢接下來你們的後續"},{"start":10450.12,"end":10450.62,"text":"接下來我們有請郭育琴委員"},{"start":10478.558,"end":10481.299,"text":"我想在進入今天這個電子煙入侵校園的一個主題之前我們先來看一下最近其實在包含我兒子的學校其實也非常的擔心"},{"start":10504.023,"end":10530.285,"text":"就是有一位這個外籍的人士那他目前是在臺灣行蹤沉迷已經超過了大概三十幾天了那大家比較擔心的是這個外籍的人士呢有傳聞說他可能會進入所謂的這個不管是短期的補習班或者是課後班或者是這個其他的一些美育補習班甚至有可能會進入校園目前教育部掌握的"},{"start":10531.55,"end":10532.41,"text":"外籍老師的任用必須有良民證"},{"start":10554.699,"end":10577.096,"text":"那我目前的一個系統上並沒有這一個人有擔任任何的一個教職但是誠如委員所提的因為沒有立案的或者社區的那些小型的或者客戶這是我們也擔心的所以有關兒少特別兒少的那一個區塊我們也請各地方縣市政府裡面能夠積極的去查"},{"start":10578.938,"end":10592.854,"text":"進行了解明天下午就會回報一定要快因為其實已經有傳聞說他本來是在中南部是屏東的南部的地區但是後來已經有傳聞說他已經北上移到了桃園但目前這個都還是"},{"start":10593.695,"end":10595.195,"text":"我們會跟地方來合作然後盡速的來瞭解前面的一個狀況"},{"start":10620.501,"end":10644.335,"text":"接下來我們來看一下這個新型電子煙我想這個電子煙入侵校園在這個短短的大概是七年間的一個時間不管是進入偏鄉、非山非市或者是都會區的一個學校短短七年的時間已經蔓延得非常的嚴重了我們收到的是一線的在教育現場的一個老師他跟我們來反映是說"},{"start":10646.345,"end":10666.977,"text":"同材之間因為電子煙的香味它有各式各樣不同的一個變化甚至於煙器的本身它就變成是一個年輕人流行時尚的一個炫耀的一個手上的一些商品所以其實你就會發現它在學生之間的"},{"start":10667.958,"end":10683.492,"text":"接受度很高受歡迎度也很高但接著下來其實真的問題很大了因為我們發現有很多的這個不管是大學生也好或高中生也好甚至往下到國中生也好大學生批貨"},{"start":10684.673,"end":10684.913,"text":"是我"},{"start":10706.637,"end":10730.013,"text":"我想這確實是我們現在在校園裡邊我們從一些統計數字也看到的一些現象那目前其實針對我們的這個教育部青少年在吸煙的一個問題我們所採取的措施我念一下包括校園的禁煙環境的維護提供師生戒煙的資源以及設立違規事件反應的管道"},{"start":10730.914,"end":10747.485,"text":"感覺聽起來好像都有面面俱到但目前為止具體的成效或具體的作為到底是什麼真的有對這三樣的部分做嚴格的控管還是只交給地方我可能就沒辦法掌握了這個部分呢有對症下藥嗎"},{"start":10751.769,"end":10776.643,"text":"跟委員回報了兩點第一點是否對症下藥剛剛委員已經講出我們的三個面向事實上也還有更基礎的在必修課程不定必修課程有關健體的部分那麼從縱向第一階段到第五階段都有那剛剛最後講到成效的部分這個歷來我們會跟地方政府藉由定期的匯報來做處置以今天質詢之後這樣處置的密度會更強謝謝"},{"start":10779.585,"end":10795.967,"text":"好,我想呢,距離這個煙害防治法上次的一個修法已經是16年前了啦然後但是呢,這對電子煙的這個規範其實我們是在去年的1月其實我們就有一些比較更嚴格的一個管制的部分啦但是目前我們看到電子煙在市面當中的流竄"},{"start":10797.368,"end":10820.974,"text":"感覺上我們的控管好像很嚴格因為這些規定出來之後但問題是又好像無法可管我覺得這個不能只有推給學校校方的老師來做這件事情因為他們的行政的量能或者是教學的量能其實真的是已經不堪負荷了那在這個部分其實我覺得要更加的宣導啦因為我們知道在這個電子煙的部分包含我們把這個年紀提高到未滿20歲是禁止吸煙的"},{"start":10827.876,"end":10854.782,"text":"另外就是說我們在這個煙品的容器標示上面的面積要增加50%但問題是現在電子煙多樣化這些部分我們真的完全無法可管我們來看一下其實現在青少年他們因為好奇心光是高中生光是國中生他們都佔了50%以上接著下來比較讓人擔心的就是他們看到別人吸同儕的壓力我也就跟著吸"},{"start":10855.342,"end":10879.057,"text":"再來因為他沒有傳統的煙品的那樣子的一個臭味他就會覺得他是一個fancy是一種時尚還有紓解壓力再來剛剛提到不能只推給校園其實家庭的環境爸媽親戚朋友也在吸電子煙我想這個部分我們的宣導可能真的還是比較量能是不足的那接著下來我們來看一下"},{"start":10880.798,"end":10896.706,"text":"衛福部其實有特別做統計調查但是這個統計調查是兩年才一次對不對請衛福部的人員上來一下是兩年才一次對嗎對青少年吸煙是兩年一次那活人吸煙也是兩年所以它是交互的"},{"start":10897.426,"end":10921.127,"text":"我個人真的認為這兩年當中的變化會很大不要講一般的青少年朋友我們光看電子煙很多人以為說它是一個戒煙的工具是一個替代品這是完全錯誤的我手上拿的這份報告其實真的就在講的是電子煙對於青少年以及對於人體肺部的危害"},{"start":10921.988,"end":10922.108,"text":"我們會積極研議"},{"start":10944.471,"end":10944.711,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":10972.176,"end":10993.433,"text":"事實上從去年的這個3月22號開始執行修法之後到今年我們大概在網路平台查緝違規案件大概3萬多件那目前已經裁法出去的是74件確實3萬多件的74件而已所以這個我們需要再加強我們裁法的力道跟速度是因為我們的人力量能不夠嗎"},{"start":10994.814,"end":11004.901,"text":"這是一個原因但是另外最重要的原因是他需要去要調尋各自要約尋他這個行政程序是比較繁瑣的比較複雜的所以我們在這個兩個禮拜前在未完委員會召開了這個相關類似的會議之後呢這個過程中我們跟22個縣市跟網路平台都有積極的開會希望可以壓縮這個速度讓採取速度快一點"},{"start":11018.63,"end":11022.091,"text":"回到我剛剛最一開始所說的因為現在有很多的年輕人是透過LINE群組是透過IG的對話群組他們在做這樣子的一個向下"},{"start":11042.935,"end":11068.452,"text":"我們說這是往下在影響我們的青少年的族群但是很多的來源包含它的煙油的來源是來自於中國那我們都知道其實從中國過來的東西其實是對人體當中是非常非常有大的一個危害這個部分麻煩加快速度可以嗎可以好那另外呢就是我們剛剛提到如果我真的在網路上看到這些平台"},{"start":11069.172,"end":11071.393,"text":"跟委員報告其實追本溯源還是在網路平台的這些不法的刊載跟廣告是我們查緝的重點"},{"start":11099.349,"end":11127.364,"text":"好 你們查緝的重點都講出來了但是查緝的結果跟查緝的速度跟最後的這個能夠真正查緝的建樹真的是要加強 我知道好 什麼時候可以更快的加強我們大概因為一直今天一整天的委員一直在提醒我們說我們會盡快在時間內提供我們的包括在校園的推廣包括在校園的 淹害的"},{"start":11129.645,"end":11130.005,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":11159.155,"end":11159.255,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":11173.971,"end":11193.941,"text":"第一案本次堪瑞颱風登陸造成全台嚴重災情尤其風勢強悍更是各地露宿建築破損向源泉更需要國人共同重視要求教育部一個月內彙整全台學校受颱風影響的損害情況提出協助計劃必要時向行政院申請第二日備金與營業"},{"start":11195.061,"end":11216.295,"text":"提案人﹐洪孟楷﹐萬美玲﹑柯志恩﹑黃建豪﹑第二有鑒於煙害防治法以明令禁止電子煙﹐但因政府各部會分工各行其事﹐導致查緝效果不彰﹐使青少年容易接觸取得﹐進而大舉入侵校園﹐而電子煙更被當作使用毒品之載具﹐強害青少年身心健康勝據﹐"},{"start":11217.376,"end":11239.313,"text":"為杜絕電子煙氾濫,也要求教育部、衛福部、法務部、數發部、財政部、關務署、內政部警政署等相關部門應跨部會成立電子煙防制查緝平台,加強宣導與查緝,避免電子煙及毒品繼續侵害校園。提案人衛美玲、洪孟凱、柯之恩、葛如君、黃建豪"},{"start":11239.853,"end":11260.904,"text":"第三案,鑒於近日美國國土安全調查辦公室事起﹐指出美籍人士Levi Forest Wallace涉嫌在美國鄂勒岡州對未成年人進行猥褻﹐並經判刑後劣化﹐但該名人士於本年12日持觀光簽證入境台灣﹐目前已行蹤不明超過35天﹐"},{"start":11262.285,"end":11282.827,"text":"建議此事以引發家長恐慌．提請教育部立即全面徹查全台各縣市的學校補習班及課後照顧中心．並於今日下午5時前公布查核結果此外．對於新聘任之外籍人員暫時採取更嚴格之審查機制"},{"start":11284.828,"end":11311.274,"text":"應應嚴格審查其他校園職務如除公、勤儉人員等之批認條件以確保校園環境的安全無虞提案人張雅玲、陳培育、陳秀寶、吳佩玉、葛儒均宣布完畢好 那我們先來一案一案處理我們先處理今天臨時提案第一案那第一案的部分要不要提案的委員不在我們請部長先說明一下"},{"start":11312.452,"end":11339.288,"text":"有沒有需要補充的地方或是說明的地方?謝謝主席我想這一個這個洪委員的提案我們基本上在一個院內所有的受災這個颱風的這個災損情形跟協助計畫我想我們可以來這個我們這一個教育部是可以來來做的這沒問題那至於必要的時候向行政院申請第二一倍金這個是不是能夠在文字上略為修正為"},{"start":11340.188,"end":11368.849,"text":"因為工程會本身它就有這一個專案只要颱風它馬上就會有一個所以是不是能夠這一個文字調整為向工程會申請專案補助予以因應好 我們這個要修正這邊嘛那我想這沒有問題就是必要時向工程會申請專案補助予以因應這樣是好 那OK那這樣文字修正後面沒有問題那我們就照樣通過"},{"start":11370.267,"end":11395.029,"text":"那接下來我們第二案,第二案是這個本席所提的其實這個就是今天我們大家在質詢的時候所講的嘛因為今天跨了非常多的部會去處理這個電子煙相關的防制稽查那所以本席希望這邊可能不好意思我要在臨時停下加一個字就是說我們先把就是相關部門然後呢英化部會成立電子煙防制查緝平台前面一個月"},{"start":11396.109,"end":11423.035,"text":"我想一個月的時間其實很足夠其實本期本來是想要提一個禮拜為什麼呢因為事實上大家現在就在做除非你們告訴我說現在是沒有在做那既然大家都有在做我們就把這平台把它整合起來那我想對於主責部分的衛福部影響我們最大的教育部來講把這個平台整合起來以後對整個電子煙的這個稽查防制應該是會非常有效果那這個是不是請部長請看我們鄭部長跟衛福部這邊"},{"start":11424.995,"end":11426.735,"text":"文字有要調整嗎?衛福部?沒有,我們會跟教育部一起合作來辦理"},{"start":11449.026,"end":11475.776,"text":"要擺前面嗎?但他們說沒有問題啊,這樣需要調嗎?文字是不是衛福部主政?對嘛,所以部長要講啊?對不起來,那我們把文字調整一下原要求衛福部、教育部、法務部、數發部、這個關務署還有警政署等相關部門我們把衛福部跟教育部對調一下那一個月,一個月內英跨部會成立電子煙防制查緝平台這個部分把它加上去,文字上的修正沒有問題齁?"},{"start":11477.489,"end":11479.111,"text":"第三案是張雅琳委員有沒有需要補充說明"},{"start":11492.574,"end":11494.817,"text":"策查全台各縣市的學校、補習班及課科中心及幼兒園"},{"start":11510.91,"end":11521.734,"text":"第二段的第二行全台各縣市的學校、補習班、課後照顧中心及幼兒園中心後面加上及幼兒園"},{"start":11529.906,"end":11536.092,"text":"補習班後面的集字取消改成頓號徹查全台各縣市學校頓號、補習班頓號、課後照顧中心及幼兒園"},{"start":11545.305,"end":11572.584,"text":"跟主席報告因為幼兒園目前有7000多所所以我們在整個調查裡邊明天下午可能他確實會有一點那不然這樣我們可不可以就是說先公佈現在的這個學校部我們分階段好不好那我們文字上可以怎麼修改我們是不是可以就是譬如前面這段我們現在努力的就是學校補習班還有科後照顧這邊我們努力在明天下午對"},{"start":11574.125,"end":11596.525,"text":"那幼兒園的部分呢?我們可以訂在什麼時候呢?幼兒園可不可以下禮拜一中午前好 那我們把它放在文字裡面好不好那幼兒園於下禮拜一是幾號?下禮拜一中午前那那個是不是請教育部你把文字調整一下我們現在可以把這個調整後的文字正確的把它唸完來"},{"start":11600.287,"end":11608.095,"text":"所以看起來前面應該還是一樣就是到徹查全台各縣市的學校、頓化、補習班及課後照顧中心"},{"start":11611.745,"end":11637.883,"text":"確認目前或過去是否曾聘用或運用該人士之服務並於這個時間點我們是不是改了8日下午5點時公佈查核結果應該在這個結果後面加至於的自由委員部分於下週一11月1號下週一中午前好沒問題謝謝所以我們在那個就是查核結果後面再加"},{"start":11641.448,"end":11646.697,"text":"文字給我,我們唸一次好不好,確定的文字"},{"start":11659.285,"end":11681.786,"text":"並於8日下午5點前公布查核結果至幼兒園部分於11月11日中午12點前公布查核結果好不好那雅琳委員這樣可以嗎?好OK那我們沒有其他的問題的話第三案我們也照案通過謝謝主席謝謝各位委員"},{"start":11687.59,"end":11712.72,"text":"好接下來那這個提案各提案如果還有委員我們要補簽的可以請議事人員詳細登載在這個議事錄好那接下來我們要繼續進行質詢那我想我們因為這個教育文化委員會下午2點我們還有一個學生輔導法的這個法案要協商所以我們後續外委員會4分鐘的時間就請大家掌握跟把握時間那接下來繼續進行質詢我們請羅志強委員委員質詢"},{"start":11724.668,"end":11737.077,"text":"主席有請教育部長、衛福部、數位部跟警政署以上四個部會委員好"},{"start":11738.171,"end":11759.845,"text":"部長我看到您的有關於電子煙入侵校園的一個防制檢討的報告那我有一種深刻的感覺我覺得現在電子煙都已經賣到外太空去了我感覺我們相關部會還在殺豬公的那種感覺那現在電子煙在校園裡面的問題越來越嚴重對不對"},{"start":11760.706,"end":11781.897,"text":"那我看到您的就是包括一些執行的做法實施課程教學、加長教育宣導、提供防制資源、強化校園管制、防止入侵校園其實我覺得這些都很重要啦但是說實在話要讓教育部獨扛大折我覺得也是很困難"},{"start":11782.757,"end":11797.959,"text":"因為這個東西真的因為電子煙的整個的販售甚至它的所謂的一個使用的環境說真的也不是純粹只在校園裡面嘛如果校園的以外的環境的狀況使用的狀況越來越多"},{"start":11798.84,"end":11817.218,"text":"那當然對校園裡面就會產生的影響就會越來越大沒錯吧 對不對所以那我想請教因為我看到你們的精進作有一個跨部會的合作共同防制你覺得目前為止我們跨部會的作為你覺得夠嗎對於防制我們現在的電子煙在校園裡面的一個狀況"},{"start":11818.639,"end":11834.365,"text":"我想跟委員報告以我們目前來講我們雖然有合作但是他確實還是可以再精進的因為我們看到一些係數那個學生的這個比例那個人數好像他似乎在增加"},{"start":11835.766,"end":11860.604,"text":"必須要有一個更積極的就誠如跟委員報告感謝委員的一個理解因為它確實有許多的是原因在這個社區在家庭或者販賣的系統但是它會發生在這個學校裡邊那也對學校裡邊確實產生更大的一些挑戰我想我們會來更積極的在來努力研擬這樣的一個對策"},{"start":11862.305,"end":11887.986,"text":"其實我剛剛看到前面的委員也都有問到說實際上不管是成年人、未成年人其實不用特別去找你知道在搜尋引擎去打電子煙、煙油你就很輕鬆的買到各種商品商家也會很貼心會寫說最受歡迎的電子煙油口味快來看看你上了沒有所以說真的到目前為止我舉個例子我想請教一下目前網路的稽查跟打擊到底是由誰來執行"},{"start":11890.575,"end":11917.53,"text":"有沒有部會可以說的你是誰來執行報告委員：如果是電子煙的網路稽查是由衛福部國建署來主責對好那我想請教一下就是說依照目前的煙害防治法我們有發現民眾在吸食電子煙是怎麼做目前如果使用電子煙的話非法煙品的話我們都會做採取目前會上前那個開單還是說"},{"start":11920.049,"end":11948.455,"text":"沒有什麼作為這個就是我們執法上在行政法上的困擾對啊事實上實務上就我所知不管是員警還是地方衛生局、稽查員通常大部分都睜一隻眼閉一隻眼除非他們在室內抽菸沒有我們會請他留下一些證據那因為後續要做約尋的動作所以他的後續你剛前面也講其實很多東西是不足的啦對不對那現行規定的話送衛生局開罰嘛警察走了之後就可以繼續抽嘛對不對"},{"start":11949.918,"end":11973.669,"text":"是吧我們會以開罰為原則那就走了以後可以繼續抽啊就這個意思嘛 對不對當然我們會送戒煙教育啦或做戒煙的一些指導師一定也會我沒有要責怪你的意思啦對因為有些東西法規法治環境確實就會出現一些那請問教育部啊如果學校在抓到就是看到學生抽電子煙會怎麼辦會沒收煙瓶嗎"},{"start":11979.781,"end":12000.584,"text":"我們目前是沒收然後按照這個校規會懲處我要這樣講啦就是說事實上這我也是最近在推動一個修法就是說法令上應該還是要新增沒收這個效果因為既然都視為他是違禁品但讓你們有一個依法授權的一個處理空間那當然其實不只這一面啦包括說"},{"start":12001.665,"end":12025.154,"text":"實際上現在電子煙又跟毒品結合在一起它其實危害是越來越大如果說今天我們的我剛剛講過如果我們還在殺豬公的話說真的我非常擔心我們的學子你根本根不上今天電子煙這種所謂賣到外太空的這種氾濫的趨勢那請教育部還有各部會真的跨部會合作緊密一點該修的法規拜託要再重新檢討該修就要修好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":12028.163,"end":12032.305,"text":"謝謝羅智強委員接下來我們有請李坤城委員質詢謝謝主席我們請教育部長、國建署副署長還有速發部的代表好 以上三位"},{"start":12051.243,"end":12075.2,"text":"委員好謝謝部長辛苦了那其實我在總質詢的時候就針對這個電子煙還有這一個伊脫米子這個相關的這個危害有做出了這個質詢那我先請教一下這個國建署按照這個110年的這個資料這個國內這個你們推估大概有這個超過7.9萬名的青少年使用電子煙7.9萬這是110年那有沒有最新的資料"},{"start":12076.019,"end":12092.151,"text":"跟委員報告最新的資料我們會在11月底12月初公佈那目前看起來這個人數有增加嗎目前我初步看到的這個資料跟上一步的調查的資料趨勢是一樣的趨勢就是增加嗎"},{"start":12094.027,"end":12122.827,"text":"大概的比率差不多好 那就看你這一個11月的報告了對 11月的報告會出來那這個電子煙這個使用率越來越佳 越增加最主要就是它在網路上真的很容易取得那我們看一下這個我在網路上打這個電子煙那其實第一個出來的是這個國民健康署的電子煙防治專區可是接下來呢 都是說這個電子煙要怎麼買啊那官網在哪裡啊那我請一下一下書法部好了"},{"start":12124.488,"end":12131.555,"text":"這個其實打電子音你們都知道嘛那這個看到這個網站這個如入無人之境那到底我們有沒有在管理啊"},{"start":12132.59,"end":12158.218,"text":"報告委員有關於電子煙的查處的工作是國建署的業務那我們現在也積極在協助這接觸上是你們在做處理的嘛你們有分這個境內跟境外的嘛對不對報告委員有關於點TW的部分我們目前為了配合這個國建署已經有移送了178件的案件那境外的部分勒境外的部分的話那如果國建署因為我們跟衛福部有參與那你先跟我講好了我現在看到這個齁"},{"start":12159.958,"end":12168.862,"text":"這個網路上就是啊就是這些網站那這些網站怎麼處理這些網站怎麼處理還是要問國建署要如何處理當然那個副署長怎麼處理跟委員報告點TW是國建署五月的時候召開會議要求台灣NIC六月七月兩次會議之後呢在八月份台灣NIC點TW全數下架八十八件"},{"start":12187.691,"end":12205.279,"text":"我先說明那現在網路上出現的這些都是境外的都是境外網域境外網域的部分最近上次未完委員會之後我們拜訪點TW我們大概會積極朝向限制解析的方式來做一些處理那我們會在這個更有結論的時候來跟委員做說明"},{"start":12206.939,"end":12232.19,"text":"現在上次有提到說一些網路平台像Google或是Meta甚至像TikTok他們其實在11月1號他們都已經有設立這個法人代表了對不對這是書發部的書發部對不對報委員這部分我大概請我們素產署的副署長回答一下他馬上就這應該有確定因為你們電耐是10月31號吧因為是他的業務我不是非常清楚"},{"start":12234.911,"end":12261.669,"text":"來來來說明一下是不是在10月31號都有完成這個指定法律的代表登記報告是的有嗎有有有對啊所以說如果說這個他們在這個網路平台上面那有這個違法的話我們找到法律代表嘛對不對是好那這個國建署這部分呢其實我們已經開始進行這些相關違規的這些裁處了對啊那現在就是說"},{"start":12262.967,"end":12287.692,"text":"因為你已經有涉法律代表了那其實你去找說這個究責對象其實會更明確啦那可是呢就按照這個剛剛訴發部所講的齁如果我們要這個境外網站要封網的條件呢一個是經法院的判決跟裁定那第二個是要經過行政機關的處分嘛對不對那現在那法院判決又曠日飛時那行政機關的處分的話是不是能夠再加快勒"},{"start":12288.172,"end":12307.175,"text":"是 沒錯 跟委員報告我們也跟22個縣市在討論現在已經有行政處分的話能不能盡速依行政法第36條移送給塔巴尼克做停滯解析的動作那大概那個時間咧我們大概一個月內一定會有一個具體的報告再跟委員做說明"},{"start":12308,"end":12329.901,"text":"對 我是希望說第一個 境外的這些網路平台 他們都是用這些網路平台在賣嘛那所以在臺灣已經設法律代表了 那所以說在責任上面我覺得要加重財塔一定會 對那第二個就是說 這個我們如果要封網 那當然有一定的法律程序在行政機關處分這方面 那它的速度是不是真的加快程序是不是能夠縮短"},{"start":12330.822,"end":12358.111,"text":"那如果這樣子的話是不是在這個11月底能夠有一個更清楚的一個這個程序跟他的做法再讓本席知道是的OK好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝李昆城委員接下來我們有請沈博洋委員質詢好謝謝主席那有請這個教育部長跟那個書發部的副署長謝謝"},{"start":12359.5,"end":12360.369,"text":"好 有請鄭部長還有我們訴法部"},{"start":12365.287,"end":12389.783,"text":"委員好你好那因為時間有限我想說趕快問因為我知道這個教文下午還要發案那我今天趁這個機會因為剛好書發跟教育部都在所以我想問一個就只有一個問題而已就是Trunk ClassTrunk Class是現在大學大部分都用的這一個課程的點名什麼系統我想教育部應該很清楚那你看各大學其實都有在使用那因為他也會拿到定位資訊所以說真的他能夠拿到的個資也算多"},{"start":12390.623,"end":12410.288,"text":"那我發現就是在這一個之前還在治安處的那一個時候那個時候有說到底他是不是中國廠商那個時候說沒有他應該是台灣但我們後來去看了之後發現在這個董監事的資料裡面可以很清楚的看到他目前是港資啦那我知道那個時候認定港資跟現在認定港資標準不太一樣"},{"start":12411.108,"end":12429.951,"text":"所以現在我們比較有疑慮的地方是因為他有港資那接下來可以看到他在西安這個智源軟件名字一模一樣他的軟體有沒有可能在中國研發因為他這邊有他的這個硬他按照中國的用語硬體跟軟體他寫硬件軟件然後他的開發是不是有可能是在中國"},{"start":12430.792,"end":12458.343,"text":"這個對我們來講會有疑慮嗎?因為學生都在使用這樣的一個系統然後呢根據新北地方法院的一個地方判決也可以看到他有自己提到他是跟另外一家公司有價格上的爭議他有中國的子公司所以呢我們這邊並不是說港資完全不能用喔我們這邊最主要只是要先盤點那個風險因為他在中國有子公司他的軟體開發也可能在那一邊中國的工程師能不能拿到台灣的資料"},{"start":12459.143,"end":12479.278,"text":"為什麼會有這樣的疑慮就是因為之前在這一個資安的回報裡面就已經有人回報說他能夠遠端攻擊的漏洞他有被回報過一次而且是在2023年2月蠻近的時候然後再來就是我們能夠在哔哩哔哩就中國的平台裡面看到還有人教學怎麼去破解這個Trump Class所以他會有一些資安的疑慮"},{"start":12479.818,"end":12507.235,"text":"那有資安的疑慮對我們來講並不是說什麼我們現在就不要用這些系統不是而是希望教育部看能不能有機會跟事務發布一起稍微盤點一下這家公司有沒有可能相關的風險以及如果之後類似像這種要簽約的廠商等等之類可能要有一個SOP就是說因為這都是現在新型態的威脅那舊時代的可能有一些認定的方式可能比較不同所以在這邊稍微問一下事務發布跟教育部就這樣子而已"},{"start":12508.095,"end":12533.585,"text":"那是不是看能不能簡短說明因為我怕時間謝謝委員的一個提醒我想我們跟書發部一起來合作如果有這一個我們講說有這些風險存在委員所提的風險跟遠端的監控這些我們一定會來禁止好對齁然後因為這是因為他現在他是港資嘛齁那他就是兩邊都有公司那他資料能不能夠確保說欸台灣的資料是不能不能夠被中國的工程師拿走又或者說他軟體如果在中國開發的話在這邊有沒有後門"},{"start":12535.706,"end":12536.066,"text":"接下來我們有請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":12561.803,"end":12575.865,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們先請教育部部長鄭部長那我們另外請這個衛福部的代表來另外請數法部的這個司長好 我們教育部然後國建署數法部"},{"start":12580.495,"end":12591.837,"text":"委員好好部長好那個一開始我現在針對今天是電子煙但是呢一開始我先討論一下這國人啊我們在這個所謂的紙煙的部分最近有一個國建署有一個調查"},{"start":12593.676,"end":12601.86,"text":"販售指煙給未成年人的通路業者的比例從近3年來,包含今年110、121、112這3年來,大概都有3成的比例是違規賣給未成年人這是國有影子組的統計所以今天要討論電子煙之前,我們先講"},{"start":12610.845,"end":12611.345,"text":"是否能夠清楚?"},{"start":12634.978,"end":12660.173,"text":"跟委員報告這喬裝測試是我們從104年開始就跟消基會積極合作那從去年新法實施之後呢我們在喬裝測試裡面含電子煙跟所有的煙瓶都放成喬裝測試的部分但是因為市面上買不到電子煙所以未來就待會討論先講止煙的部分對止煙的部分就是用喬裝測試看到的結果就是這樣子那怎麼辦呢"},{"start":12663.45,"end":12679.579,"text":"其實如果在校園等於這三年來應該說我們講我們列出來我先不管104年啦我先講這近三年110、110、110這三年來等於這個三成的比例是沒有動的所以你的稽查稽查完做什麼事情跟委員報告這分校內校外校內我們的喬裝測試是瞭解它整個淹害的環境那根據我們也是這個調查報告就是2.4%的校園它是OK的"},{"start":12690.265,"end":12718.917,"text":"但是確實有17個校園就是我們最近兩波次的這個調查是需要改善的另外一個是在校園之外的店家泛煙的部分這我們也是積極查緝的一個重點來這樣喔因為校內當然是校規來處理這是教育部的事情但是校外我想很多問題都在校外啦我覺得老師教官都已經夠辛苦了你說這個他們的權利也有限那你要叫他們不能抽煙或是怎麼樣去抓一定的困難那我就想說在法律上面來講"},{"start":12719.517,"end":12740.542,"text":"除了稽查之外既然看到這個稽查的成果每年的成果數字沒有變動的情況下表示不管目前學校內或學校外做的工作是有限的嘛沒有什麼成效啊所以希望說是在法律上面第一個通路上面如果他繼續販賣未成年人我們在懲處上面禁止他販賣這機會有沒有可行性啊"},{"start":12741.142,"end":12744.204,"text":"通路上是不能販賣紫煙的是確定是不能販賣的所以他一定是在您提的這個PPT上面的這些商店來做實體販賣所以呢我們怎麼樣防範他放煙給未滿20歲的話這是我們查詢的重點"},{"start":12758.032,"end":12770.101,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來再來談到這個電子煙的問題這個依據你們今天的報告有沒有去目前今年目前為止52萬件電子煙查緝只有開罰1370件成案率只有0.26%我要問一下你們查緝52萬件這個查緝的作為你們怎麼查緝去哪裡查緝查出52萬件"},{"start":12780.789,"end":12800.68,"text":"其實其中的47萬是實體查查實體查查就是我們的縣市在聯合計查的時候會進到所有的商家來了解那3萬5千多件是網路查查這個剛好部長也了解一下這個國建署這邊也要了解一下既然這個電子煙目前最大的通路其實就不是實體通路"},{"start":12801.38,"end":12818.056,"text":"所以你們花了47萬件如果在實體通路上我想這個稽查我不能說無效但是我覺得方向有點錯誤最實際的做法應該是後面那位數位部剛剛所有委員都提到了目前我們在網路上面能夠買到這個電子煙我想前面很多委員也提到這件事情"},{"start":12818.456,"end":12831.035,"text":"包含昨天最新的這個新聞說你們針對高中生裁罰20萬那這實體的問題就是通路嘛剛委員提到啦那你們對於通路這種電子通路你們要怎麼去禁網你們要禁網嗎你們可以去禁嗎"},{"start":12832.32,"end":12849.499,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員的追詢那網路上的事情大概基本上就回到實體世界那有關ENK的部分大概是國建署的這個權責那我們現在協助大概有幾個地方第一個就是網路平台的限制瀏覽或移除這部分的話會建綠色通道"},{"start":12850.92,"end":12870.047,"text":"來沒關係也有時間到了我要先講之前這個創意司法的時候不管是數位部也好衛福部也好大家也是推來推去說因為法源怎麼樣怎麼樣所以不能進但是輿論關心之後馬上就能夠進了那今天我想問一下我們衛福部啊我也問一下教育部電子煙是合法還是非法的"},{"start":12871.528,"end":12899.827,"text":"電子煙是非法他是非法的嘛既然他是非法我想數位部你就應該可以直接把它禁掉啊不用等什麼公文不用等什麼執行啊報告委員那個基本上現在所有中華民國法律有談到所謂的停止解析的部分包含兒少性侵防治條例家暴防治法性侵害防治法還有所謂的現在最剛過的打詐犯罪不管我說那這個是以電子煙為例你們能不能直接去禁嘛所以衛福部不管禁外禁內"},{"start":12900.948,"end":12903.089,"text":"謝謝主席我們接下來有請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席本席邀請部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":12926.442,"end":12931.424,"text":"委員好部長好我想根據國建署110年的調查我們全台超過7.9萬名青少年在使用電子煙那這個是顯性的數字隱性的數字我相信還增加很多"},{"start":12953.591,"end":12978.259,"text":"這個驚人的數字我們非常的清楚電子煙目前在台灣是非法的 對不對但是它已經這麼普遍而且電子煙的載具已經成為毒品吸食的工具這個讓我們真的很憂心上司煙彈藉由這樣子來滲透我們所有青少年的生活"},{"start":12979.039,"end":13003.956,"text":"原本早期的尼古丁現在變成了這個是非常號稱非常飛行的而且他的這個又很淡而且還有香味導致我們很多的孩子也不知道這個是這麼的危險所以這個議題是大家都非常的關心所以本期要請教部長在我們的校園裡頭我們有沒有這個檢測跟管理的方案"},{"start":13009.159,"end":13032.148,"text":"尤其我們的老師甚至我們的老師他很單純他也不知道這個危險性那怎麼樣去防範呢尤其我們一再強調水手在網路上面都可以賣都可以賣在這樣子公開的訊息明明他是違法的我們政府的橫向聯繫怎麼做呢所以本期要請教部長"},{"start":13036.004,"end":13043.135,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們這個校園一個更友善這個安全的一個學習環境那我們老師"},{"start":13044.895,"end":13069.033,"text":"我們事實上老師當然本身他不是這個煙毒的專家但是我們會透過研習然後有研習嗎有有我們事實上我們煙害環制法裡邊我們有還有這一個所謂的這一個重點中心學校我們也都透過在許多老師的許多的課程教材的一個發展讓老師也理解到這一些"},{"start":13071.294,"end":13097.647,"text":"辨識到這些煙毒包含電子煙你認為目前所做成效OK嗎我想應該是說外面的這些挑戰越來越大那對老師的挑戰當然也在增加所以部長我們討論到現在本席也就希望你們還要精進方案怎麼樣的方式讓老師更加了解因為老師很辛苦他有的甚至不知道這個嚴肅性到這種嚴重性"},{"start":13099.648,"end":13118.892,"text":"但是我們希望老師能夠更放心的安心的教學所以我們才會希望說我們在社區家長跟一些民間的團體商家大家一起來努力那甚至我們也不排斥就是說如果當發現學生有這樣攜帶的時候他的一個來源我們一定會清查清楚"},{"start":13119.232,"end":13136.217,"text":"一定要清查清楚所以有民間團體建議政府應該設立全國統一的校園懲戒標準有它的明確的處理流程因為現在你沒有大家不知道怎麼處理所以目前的社會面向是很嚴峻的"},{"start":13136.957,"end":13154.707,"text":"是很嚴重的而且它的比例數字是一直在上升所以我們很緊張那怎麼辦呢有這個民間團體有人這樣建議部長你的看法呢要不要去一個專案去研討我們到底要怎麼懲戒我們整個SOP流程要怎麼做"},{"start":13156.478,"end":13180.681,"text":"我想怎麼樣精進我們就陳儒剛才也有委員特別提到說怎麼樣讓年輕人他們表達為什麼他們會吸引因為從過去的一個調查各項的方式當然多元的面向你們做一個專案去研討好不好去研討針對於要怎麼管理要怎麼處理應該要有一個研討的方案是"},{"start":13181.221,"end":13187.194,"text":"是不是我想這些怎樣精進我們一定會研究的你們多久時間可以研究出來你給我們一個時間因為每個家長都好緊張"},{"start":13191.892,"end":13218.219,"text":"那是不是我們給委員一個月後一個月的時間對一個方向請全國的家長放心我們教育部會在一個月後提出怎麼樣去應對那特別在數位部的部分他明明是違法他怎麼可以上那你數位部就應該要撤除啊你應該要移除啊有沒有這麼做"},{"start":13220.192,"end":13244.381,"text":"這就是我們期待這個跨部會能夠合作能夠積極地面對這個問題所以我剛剛說一個月內你就把跨部會找來政府橫向必須要做數位部違法的你們是不是主動像這危害到我們孩子的健康是不是主動移除來數位部回答一下是 報委員這份是國建署的在查詢的工作國建署"},{"start":13247.25,"end":13247.43,"text":"接下來我們有請"},{"start":13277.239,"end":13277.759,"text":"麥玉珍委員質詢麥玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":13304.181,"end":13328.774,"text":"想要請教一下因為我們的煙害防治法已經上路就是一年多了但是呢我們想要請教一下當前的防範措施與校園的宣導有夠力嗎還是說有確保我們的青少年還有我們的家長有充分了解說這個電子煙"},{"start":13331.815,"end":13334.418,"text":"衛生福利部國民健康署配合教育部的校園陰害防治計畫有將電子煙的危害"},{"start":13354.356,"end":13381.983,"text":"包括幼兒園、國小、國中都有做成教學包跟數位教材提供教育部在現場教學的時候可以告訴學生對,但是為什麼還會有那麼多8萬多人還在稀釋所以你們宣傳的效果如何?對,跟教育部的合作我們會持續來做進行但對於整個大眾的宣導我們確實要再繼續加強"},{"start":13384.295,"end":13406.119,"text":"因為每次質詢每個部會都說努力中砸搶中但是不知道到什麼才是中所以聽到都長繭了所以我們希望說針對青少年的電子煙它就是成為一個上癮的問題所以我們的煙酒公司是民營還是私營還公營民營還是公營財政部"},{"start":13413.1,"end":13430.475,"text":"這個煙酒公司是財政部管轄對管轄下就是最大的毒品公司所以說連這個部分都沒有辦法去阻止的話我們的孩子我們孩子在學校誰來保護還有就是我們如何讓我們的小孩去戒菸所以這一進一步的怎麼杜絕怎麼讓"},{"start":13440.142,"end":13468.252,"text":"這個電子煙不要進入學校還有禁止我們的青少年去使用這個部分有沒有具體的措施不要在研議中或者討論中還有說是哪一個部會是要來負責的因為剛才我們楊委員也是問說誰負責的誰要來去提出具體的合作的方案"},{"start":13470.031,"end":13496.421,"text":"我覺得電子煙它的主政單位是衛福部沒有問題但是電子煙施行在各個場域下面比如包括校園或者其他的部分確實需要其他主政單位來一起負責對 剛才因為我聽質詢的時候就是說我們已經網路要下架但是我們就是還是在網路還可以看到"},{"start":13497.421,"end":13515.242,"text":"因為我們在聽你們 聽其他委員質詢的時候 你們說已經下架了 已經禁止了但是呢 這個是誰在管理 誰在讓這些電子煙還有就是這個販售網路 不管是網路 或者是走私 或者是實體"},{"start":13516.583,"end":13518.645,"text":"電子煙的這個網路販售的過程我剛剛已經說明跟委員再次報告如果是境內的部分經過國建署跟這個臺灣臺網中心的合作境內只要點TW已經全部下架全部封網"},{"start":13544.582,"end":13545.182,"text":"我們其實非常"},{"start":13566.354,"end":13590.49,"text":"你覺得說這個電子煙不只影響到我們小孩子的健康還有影響他的學習還有他的生活這個是很大的大家都是去關心的所以也是如果是因為這樣子沒有去管理或者各個部會沒有橫向沒有共同來去協助的話引發"},{"start":13592.791,"end":13617.74,"text":"後面才會產生說我們有那個依托彌子的在進入校園所以我們就是希望我們各部會要跨部會的去合作有個具體的計畫才能真正的解決這個問題我也是希望說我本來是要求說一個禮拜但是剛才楊委員說要一個月我希望說有一個具體的"},{"start":13618.8,"end":13619.08,"text":"有請部長"},{"start":13648.336,"end":13649.598,"text":"有請鄭部長,部長慢慢來部長今天看起來有比較累喔委員好,謝謝委員的提要要坐著嗎?不用謝謝不要客氣喔"},{"start":13661.923,"end":13685.009,"text":"好那進入主題之前我先請問一下部長幾個問題馬街醫院呢欲改制為馬街醫學大學的一個進度這幾年馬街醫院的招生因為學校科系的屬性關係他們所有的科系招生非常的亮眼那科系跟畢業後的工作是可以連結的比如國內的醫院缺醫師護理師馬街有護理醫檢相關科系"},{"start":13685.729,"end":13703.529,"text":"所以國內社會對這個驗光師有需求馬街醫院最近幾年也在教育部的同意之下設視光學系請問部長馬街醫學院也有向教育部提出改制為馬街醫學大學申請案請問目前辦理的進度改制有沒有遇到什麼困難"},{"start":13704.911,"end":13728.76,"text":"沒有的,跟委員報告,我們按照一切這個專科以上學校的這些這個變更啊,或者要這個升格等等的這些的辦法,我們是按照程序來做。所以他,我們在,我們接著是要去馬街去做這個學校實地的訪查。對對對,所以你剛剛說沒有的意思是說,沒有遇到困難,是嗎?"},{"start":13729.6,"end":13735.331,"text":"我們按照程序對所以沒有沒有基本上我說在程序上沒有任何問題我們會幾月要去實地勘察是幾月"},{"start":13739.781,"end":13763.421,"text":"什麼時候要去實地勘查?可不可以給我一個明確的時機?我們12月的時候會我們事實上在10月底已經含糊學校這個書面審查的意見那目前排是在12月的時候會去學校實地勘查一切如果順利都沒有什麼問題的話預計幾月會有辦理完成那接著就是還有一個程序就是私校的一個諮詢委員會會開會 開完會以後就會確認多久會開一次會?"},{"start":13767.799,"end":13790.77,"text":"我們在1月的時候會召開這個事項好所以12月看1月去召開委員會通過委員會的話就可以改是嗎是沒有錯那我們希望過年前會有好的消息我想公私力大家一起來努力因為畢竟我們現在對於整個醫院缺醫檢師護理師剛剛有說過我們都希望能夠趕快補足這些人力那也這個部分希望教育部能夠重視"},{"start":13791.63,"end":13813.638,"text":"好那今天的專報呢名稱叫做電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制的一個檢討其實我覺得更應該深入的講我們都知道現在台灣的電子煙害防治法規定類是類煙品是被全面禁止是不能使用但現在每天新聞我們都可以看到依託名字也就是俗稱的殭屍煙我想今天大家都在討論這件事情"},{"start":13814.398,"end":13836.183,"text":"那大家都說它是電子煙但嚴格來說這個藉由電子煙的載具將毒液裝在煙袋裡面於木混珠也就是說我們今天在討論的不僅是涉及到煙害也涉及到毒害教育部在這個方面責任我覺得是非常的重大首先電子煙的外型多樣且與傳統的香煙來相比"},{"start":13839.104,"end":13866.774,"text":"煙霧相對不易察覺聞也聞不出個所以然所以學校在日常的管理中難以及時發現學生使用電子煙的行為例如學生使用電子煙通常不可能在教室比較常出現的可能在廁所走廊不易發現的一個地方教育部有沒有針對這樣的狀況提供學校一個具體的應對方法讓學校有更有效的去面對來做規範而不是只是告訴學校宣導要多加注意"},{"start":13867.884,"end":13895.097,"text":"有沒有什麼具體的規範因為我們確實校園裡邊他是會有不定期我們的這個學校創新以及校安人員我們的學務我們的老師事實上他會不定期對學校剛才委員所提的廁所啦或者一些所謂的一些可能的學生的對那個基本都要做的那些我們都有基本都有那我還是回到剛剛的電子煙察覺不易我記得以前我們在國中的時候都還看過"},{"start":13896.698,"end":13898.8,"text":"請教育部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀"},{"start":13911.715,"end":13937.327,"text":"我們希望說這個部分有沒有具體的一些方法來協助各個學校、校園而不是只是宣導說學校要多加注意那再來我們要知道我們在這個衛黃委員會一直不斷的提議一坨米子或是相關這些要更有效的去管制甚至要把它列為毒品升級才能夠更有效可是問題現在我們回到實際面在校園將私菸就是將毒液裝在煙袋裡"},{"start":13937.987,"end":13938.287,"text":"主席"},{"start":13954.485,"end":13983.305,"text":"我們目前檢測的設備還是是沒有的我們大概就從學生的行為跟看到有具體的一個事證那我們會把這樣的一個他這個稀釋的這些證據送給這個法醫所裡面去做進一步的這個證據的一個部長就部裡面的資料電子煙現在的數量在校園裡面你們有統計嗎"},{"start":13984.486,"end":14012.652,"text":"校園裡邊我們目前通報是電子煙是有38件大概就是說量是不高但是成為委員事實上也很清楚你覺得有沒有黑數應該是說在校園裡邊的上課時間老師跟學員互動大概學生在這個部分相對是比較少的但是他離開校園裡邊在社區同樣的青年同才他們可能來自於好奇來自於"},{"start":14013.332,"end":14042.512,"text":"其他的可能的因素他們會稀釋的一個比例我想會在社區會在校園外抽這樣子的不僅是吸引我相信這也會有陰影所以在外面會抽在校園內也無可避免38起我個人認為調查不一定夠紮實所以有沒有黑數我相信一定有那38起裡面或者是教育部的資料裡面有沒有依託名指的出現在校園裡面"},{"start":14043.912,"end":14058.94,"text":"目前沒有好目前沒有但是我們希望不要有但我們擔心會有所以我希望在這樣子的一個違禁品當中我們大家都知道現階段校園的一些無奈學生很聰明那老師很難查"},{"start":14059.6,"end":14061.222,"text":"目前他確實是學校在校規上他是有一些規範的"},{"start":14080.657,"end":14081.337,"text":"我先請國建署副署長"},{"start":14111.439,"end":14127.382,"text":"煙害防制法明定未滿20歲不得吸煙也就是台灣的禁煙年齡是20歲請問法修完了嗎?已經去年3月22號公布實施成效如何?有沒有具體的落實?校園就此安寧了嗎?你覺得呢?"},{"start":14129.737,"end":14154.089,"text":"剛剛說這個教育部的資料有38件其實跟委員報告當然教育部的內部的資料38件那因為在兩個禮拜前未完委員會有要求所以我們有跟縣市溝通目前縣市回報回來的透過校外跟警政校內跟學校的這個合作大概有上千件那現在正進行過濾跟查處中"},{"start":14155.049,"end":14171.865,"text":"校外跟警政有上千件對 這個加起來我們在稽查的過程你會發現違規使用電子煙的上千件所以政部長剛剛我說的38件跟上千件這中間的一個差距我們沒有要怪罪教育部但是我相信這個查緝的確困難"},{"start":14172.586,"end":14188.572,"text":"但是實際面的確有對就我所了解電子煙是非常盛行的所以在這個部分上一定要特別小心注意前天11月5號有一則新聞高中生一時好玩上網貼電子煙的照片遭南投衛生局重罰20萬部長你知道為什麼他要被罰20萬嗎?部長你知道嗎?因為我們報告他就是張貼這一個電子煙的一個訊息"},{"start":14197.619,"end":14200.201,"text":"這還是最重要的一個關鍵現在反而變成學生在當菸頭"},{"start":14227.139,"end":14248.019,"text":"原頭的不斷在提升根本就沒有做好所以教育部跟衛福部怎麼互相合作加強這個因應措施從青少年的部分來處理副署長衛福部在源頭斷根上不要放水就阿彌陀佛了但是據傳網路平台業者FBIGD卡有去找衛福部開會希望不要抓得那麼嚴有沒有這一回事"},{"start":14248.659,"end":14271.986,"text":"其實我們從去年3月22號執行新法之後到目前為止我們是定期跟業者來做溝通的對那業者有沒有反應不要抓這麼嚴我們依法行政勿往勿中那其實我先問你他們有沒有反應這種事嗎一定是依法行政我跟您報告是我們都在溝通我相信你會依法行政但我要了解平台有沒有在反應這些事情"},{"start":14273.57,"end":14300.06,"text":"我相信大家都覺得執法上面不管是那個小朋友犯煙或者是平台業者大家都覺得我們這個法煙害防治法本身就是一個比較嚴肅的法律我希望這個是嚴肅以待認真看待依法行政而且是一定要非常的嚴格去執行如果都沒有這一回事怎麼可能網路上一直都有賣電子煙的廣告跟管道電子煙變成許多平台的大宗"},{"start":14300.7,"end":14317.612,"text":"瞭解買廣告的一個業者所以如果都沒有接受到業者關心請你告訴全國大眾針對網路平台的裁罰狀況目前是多少目前我們裁罰的件數到10月底的是3萬多件3萬多件對然後目前正在積極做裁處的動作"},{"start":14319.173,"end":14341.116,"text":"我希望能夠再提升這方面的查緝甚至是裁罰能夠標準能夠再將這些件數持續的穩定提高所以衛福部110年青少年吸煙行為調查報告全國7.9萬青少年吸食電子煙1.6萬吸食加熱煙因為政府在源頭上管理有放水電子煙取得容易這是不爭的事實"},{"start":14341.676,"end":14367.671,"text":"大家都知道所以才會有7.9萬的青少年吸食加熱煙當煙頭校園的電子煙問題就會日漸的嚴重所以我想政府要不要做我們都看得很清楚實際拿出作為讓我們這些家長安心實際拿出這個作為讓整個社會安心而不是我們看到某些部會在放水而某些部會一直在努力的想要辦法在中間亡羊補牢在中間插屁股"},{"start":14368.271,"end":14373.996,"text":"所以我希望這是一個各部會要一起互相合作的問題我們一起來努力,好嗎?謝謝委員,謝謝委員好,我們謝謝羅廷薇委員接下來我們有請林月琴委員,諮詢時間4分鐘"},{"start":14395.098,"end":14398.241,"text":"請教育部、數法部、警政署"},{"start":14418.707,"end":14436.196,"text":"從我們的衛福部國民健康署110年的健康促進的統計年報可以看到高中職的學生在抽所謂的紫煙的那個比例事實上是下降的反而事實上是電子煙事實上是呈現上升的那2018年到2020年"},{"start":14439.238,"end":14452.504,"text":"從3.4成長到8.8那雙倍增長那今天事實上想因為我們在去年3月22號我們的《煙害防制法》的部分條文已經修正通過然後是全面禁止電子煙"},{"start":14454.626,"end":14468.264,"text":"主題是希望大家一起來關切怎麼防範青少年去遠離偽裝成電子煙的新型毒品所以想問部長到底目前為什麼因為你的煙"},{"start":14470.226,"end":14485.497,"text":"是會去通報給衛生局如果是毒的話會通報給警政所以想問第一個在整個校園回報的電子煙當中當中有多少的是毒品偽裝成煙品的有掌握數據嗎"},{"start":14488.018,"end":14508.465,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛有報告過38件那38件我們送驗目前是還沒有但是額外我們有發現有16件在別的管道通報下有一坨米子大概有這樣子的情形謝謝"},{"start":14509.625,"end":14510.226,"text":"衛生局或警政?"},{"start":14525.982,"end":14549.006,"text":"所以學校因為國家行動聯盟才在講說政府事實上缺乏我們的檢測手段所以我覺得不知道你們現在用什麼樣方式因為桃園也有議員是捐試劑給我們的警察局所以我不知道現在教育部有沒有什麼方法手段對於這樣的檢測到底是菸還是裡面含有毒"},{"start":14551.932,"end":14575.034,"text":"像這樣子比較特別新興的我們都會跟法務部毒品研究中心合作那我們也有一些委託關係透過比較好的八五合一的試劑這一些持續的更新這些都跟警政單位學習最新的新興毒品所以現在有拿到試劑事實上在學校裡邊事實上只要電子煙就先驗這樣子嗎"},{"start":14576.155,"end":14577.736,"text":"不管販毒者自行成立網站"},{"start":14593.763,"end":14616.636,"text":"左手邊的照片可以知道來自我們的社群平台在這樣的狀況底下青少年要透過避開家長他事實上很容易在網路上買到所以想問警政單位我們的副局長是不是知道你現在在查獲的案件當中有哪些管道是可以讓我們的青少年可以購買到這樣的一個電子煙跟新興毒品"},{"start":14618.523,"end":14645.893,"text":"謝謝委員我想在網路企圖這部分也是我們警政工作的一個重點那當然網路它有很多引以那我們查緝研警會從這一些引以還有他周遭這一部分來做一個只要有發現有販毒的這個嫌疑的話我們就會立案來做一件偵查你現在目前就你知道的目前大概就是從我們這個社群廣告它有一些會刊登一些廣告出來"},{"start":14648.074,"end":14657.501,"text":"報告委員就是我們目前就是說只要知道這些訊息我們就會立刻就是通知這些社群的平台還有那個無電面的一些工協會跟這些C2C的這些電商平台"},{"start":14677.535,"end":14680.239,"text":"請教育部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長"},{"start":14696.57,"end":14698.912,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀教育部長鄭英耀教育部長鄭英耀"},{"start":14714.105,"end":14714.725,"text":"致詢發言委員"},{"start":14747.639,"end":14749.406,"text":"好 感謝昭緯 有請部長好 有請鄭部長"},{"start":14754.992,"end":14762.697,"text":"部長早安我想今天主要就是除了想跟您討論為什麼陰害防制到現在都沒有成功另外還有關於暴險少年為什麼會接觸毒品的問題那我想那個之前我其實就有開過記者會那記者會上其實有談到就是有五大原因那包含我這邊所講的"},{"start":14781.789,"end":14806.615,"text":"就是加緊過低然後最重要的就是教學兼行政導致過勞的問題那那個過勞的問題呢我想其實我上次是跟教師公會或是代理教師公會一起討論的那結果呢就是過勞的問題教育部也非常了解嘛你們正在在行政的部分上怎麼樣支持他們對不對"},{"start":14807.795,"end":14835.769,"text":"可是今天呢我們看教育部的報告就會發現其實你們行之有您的計畫裡面的都是要各校訂定煙防計畫擬定流程那包含這裡面都是說怎麼樣增能老師對不對怎麼樣輔導老師甚至希望他們去發展教材所以我在想說在教師已經過勞行政工作過量的情況下那再加給他們這麼多的工作會不會繼續"},{"start":14837.17,"end":14838.652,"text":"這次教育部去年發布的校園危害防制實施計畫分工表"},{"start":14854.571,"end":14867.879,"text":"那教育部指示有以下任務需要完成前面包含就是擬定煙害防制政策後面戒煙教育策略主辦單位部長應該很了解都是各級學校"},{"start":14869.07,"end":14886.89,"text":"那如果都是各級學校學校又去叫老師教育部又鼓勵老師開發教材然後怎麼樣的話那會不會只是加重老師的負擔然後老師的負擔然後收到教育部的各種指示已經非常多了那其實就沒有辦法效果很好"},{"start":14888.031,"end":14904.443,"text":"那我想我這邊這個PPT好像有點狀況那我這邊準備了一個教育部防制學生的毒物濫用的實施計畫我比照了一下發現非常的不一樣在那個計畫裡面一個是教育部統籌協調學校只要負責執行跟通報"},{"start":14907.785,"end":14922.021,"text":"那另外一個呢那也就是說是地方教育局處會協助不是學校自己要全權主辦那另外一個就是你們的毒物濫用的防制實施計畫裡面會清楚的指出哪個單位要做什麼"},{"start":14922.822,"end":14923.683,"text":"可不可以參考校園防毒嚴擬你們的校園煙防計劃的2.0"},{"start":14948.938,"end":14960.64,"text":"就是重新去思考那個分工然後考量老師已經過勞行政工作已經無法減量的情況下有一個新的據說評估新的可能性"},{"start":14962.512,"end":14980.831,"text":"謝謝委員提醒確實我們也一直在努力我們希望老師不要再做太多的一些非等於說跟他教學專業無關的事情也希望能夠在行政能夠減量這都是我們在努力的那剛才跟委員報告我們這裡邊的許多的課程教材"},{"start":14982.092,"end":14997.763,"text":"的一些防制包括電子煙事實上國建署已經有開發不同教育階段的這些的教材我們本來也就都可以來鼓勵老師在這一個裡面現有的來使用那當然有部分的學校裡面"},{"start":14998.624,"end":15020.206,"text":"因地制宜 包含也不是每一個科目的老師他都要去開發這個教材我們譬如說輔導老師專任他的一個這個輔導的課程班級輔導的一些課程或者生涯發展的課程他怎麼樣去協助學生有更多的的這些陰害防制的這些我想這我們並不是每一個科目的老師都要去教"},{"start":15020.666,"end":15049.14,"text":"但是我們有義務讓老師知道我們面臨的教學上的挑戰的一些許多電子煙的各式各樣的因為時間的緣故沒有辦法讓你再繼續講那我想做的事情就是教育部可以承諾一下去評估有沒有可能就是讓分工然後不要由學校再來主辦這個校園防制計畫然後是能夠由教育部主辦然後能夠讓地方教育局處的角色也更清楚呢"},{"start":15049.4,"end":15063.585,"text":"我想謝謝委員提醒我們怎麼樣在行政減量我們去規範沿著跟地方來合作看怎麼樣來讓這一個煙毒的防制能夠真正的落實而不增加老師額外的一些"},{"start":15064.445,"end":15065.666,"text":"高檢署公佈毒品的情況,尤其是所謂的彩虹菸"},{"start":15087.799,"end":15116.247,"text":"實際上就是有向下的趨勢現在就是國中生現在出來了學生施用新興毒品年紀小到國中生都有接獲相關的通報而且警方研判有就是施用的黑數特別是這個新聞是跟三級毒品彩虹煙合成卡西銅類的毒品致死率其實增加是蠻高的那部長您怎麼打算怎麼回應這個毒品使用"},{"start":15116.647,"end":15120.61,"text":"年輕化的趨勢呢?年輕化其實就是在國教的範圍內部長有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":15131.633,"end":15157.93,"text":"我想加強先導這是一定要的那第二個就是我們在源頭裡面怎麼樣去跨部會來阻斷那第三個當然我們老師其實我們老師現場老師也都累積很多的經驗他會看到學生的學習的這些行為然後怎麼樣去做適度的一些那剛剛部長講得很好那你認為這個源頭是什麼就是這個校園毒品的源頭在哪裡"},{"start":15163.202,"end":15176.577,"text":"我想這個來自於這個一般就是有利可圖外界的一定有人有利可圖他們是怎麼樣讓圖品可以進入校園的"},{"start":15178.306,"end":15200.075,"text":"我相信這也是我們看到這一個行政院最近在努力在打詐、防詐、防毒、煙毒等等的這些系列性的我相信這一個從這一個不良幫派的那一些系統當然也是一個進入校園的一個可能的因素那不良幫派已經事實上是教育部已經沒有辦法處理了對不對"},{"start":15200.835,"end":15200.855,"text":"打詐資訊"},{"start":15231.155,"end":15241.963,"text":"為什麼找中離生因為他們不受學校特定人員的驗尿之拘束那因此比較不容易發生中離生作為媒介毒品才能進校園為什麼中離生有那個網絡他會認識學校的同學"},{"start":15247.166,"end":15272.321,"text":"所以如果你直接認為曝險學生是毒品來源那可是這個部分就是說我們要更精確的是哪些學生那中離生至少是我們在相關的研究中看到的第一個的所謂的源頭外界有利可圖當然是大家找誰是中離生那另外就是他找了中離生之後校園中根據警察大學的教授的研究"},{"start":15272.901,"end":15290.596,"text":"他其實是找就是個案在校生活適應不良的學生因為他是屬於低自我控制的特徵他才基本上對毒品的一個抗拒力比較低而且毒品可能能夠去讓他去麻痹他生活中的不舒服"},{"start":15290.896,"end":15291.016,"text":"我就是兩個﹗"},{"start":15320.366,"end":15323.648,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利"},{"start":15351.167,"end":15352.167,"text":"部長多久內可以給我這個報告呢"},{"start":15376.067,"end":15378.628,"text":"接下來我們有請翁曉琳委員質詢,時間4分鐘有請部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":15410.171,"end":15430.61,"text":"委員好部長好今天針對電子煙入侵校園這件事情很多委員很關心也是很多家長非常關心的一件事情我想請教部長您認為吸煙的問題跟吸毒的嚴重程度是不是相當"},{"start":15432.796,"end":15450.701,"text":"我想吸菸當然有很多的研究確實它可以紓解壓力當然也有一些原因是來自青少年的一些好奇心但是菸毒的這個毒品它當然對身心這個發展的影響是更明確更具體的"},{"start":15451.961,"end":15480.99,"text":"是,可是事實上已經蠻多的研究也認為說其實吸菸跟吸毒對於身心的還有生理健康的危害程度基本上是差不多相當的了因為毒品有是分等級嘛所以呢本期現在要強調的是說如果說現在校園裡面吸毒的這個吸毒的學生是要通報的那麼為什麼對於吸菸的學生現在教育部這裡有要求學校建立一套通報制度嗎"},{"start":15482.794,"end":15503.014,"text":"我們當然是還是有一套的一個通報機制但是學生的這個我們還是根據學生的一些行為他會有怎麼樣去規勸怎麼樣去協助他我先這樣講好了就是你們現在到底有沒有掌握到現在國中小的這個學生就是高中以下的學生有多少人有吸電子煙你們有實際的數據嗎"},{"start":15509.489,"end":15528.009,"text":"每個學校裡面他們有沒有做統計分析他們到底有多少學生有吸電子煙吸電子煙的部分目前通報是38件只有38件那請問一下為什麼只有38件明明我看到整個的報告裡面就是吸電子煙的學生的比例是逐年的提高可是呢你們通報卻只有38件"},{"start":15529.397,"end":15552.672,"text":"跟委員報告因為學生因為以我們我想委員非常清楚我們現在中小學的上課的方式他們其實是課程還蠻緊湊的所以比較多的一個反應他合理的一個推測在校外放學以後立假日同儕的一個或者基於好奇心他確實因為如果他"},{"start":15554.313,"end":15567.642,"text":"謝謝部長您的說明因為我剛剛聽在前面我原有這樣問我現在想問一下在校園內在校園內如果學生有吸電子煙到底學校有沒有可能發現老師有沒有這個權利去檢查學生的書包您認為有權利去檢查學生的書包嗎"},{"start":15570.56,"end":15581.224,"text":"我們基本上我們在並不會去做普遍的這一些普查我們會針對老師來自於他的生活的經驗教學的累積的經驗他今天有了生活的經驗他也發現這個學生確實是有帶電子煙然後可能也有吸電子煙他可以去檢查書包嗎?"},{"start":15594.458,"end":15619.325,"text":"我告訴部長依照您這邊所訂定的學校訂定的教師輔導與管教學生辦法注意事項裡面的規定對於校園安全的檢查進行的方式裡面規定的很清楚啊坦白說學校真的要去搜查學生的書包要去了解這學生有沒有吸電子煙有沒有攜帶電子煙他程序非常的複雜以本席看來基本上不太可能做得到"},{"start":15625.291,"end":15650.003,"text":"這個問題其實就反映在過去學生攜帶危險物品進入校園的道理是一樣的現在教育部將這個學生輔導將管教學生的注意事項定定的極為嚴格嚴格到是根本老師也無能為力也不想去承擔那個之後被家長提告的相關的責任他不會要去檢查書包的"},{"start":15655.074,"end":15680.765,"text":"簡單來說本席認為要防範要這個防止電子煙入侵校園最好的方式就是你們要重新去檢討這個注意事項要去釐清到底電子煙、煙品跟毒品如果說在學校有犯案的狀況的話怎麼樣能夠讓老師有更有這個權利可以去檢查學生所攜帶的物品這才是根本解決之道否則的話我認為其他都是妄談好 謝謝"},{"start":15684.636,"end":15712.971,"text":"好謝謝翁曉琳委員接下來我們有請鍾嘉斌委員質詢時間一樣4分鐘主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關社長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請政部長還有法務部的郭司長、數發部的牛司長國建署的賈副署長以及行政警察局的陳副局長好謝謝以上五位"},{"start":15719.386,"end":15737.295,"text":"委員好部長不好意思因為今天你的部分比較少我就簡單的說今天我們在講電子煙你知道所謂的喪屍煙彈就是所謂的伊托米子它事實上放在電子煙吸食的你大概知道吧請問國建署的副署長那如果我們把這個喪屍煙彈改三級改二級你是否支持"},{"start":15738.413,"end":15748.85,"text":"什麼叫二級毒品?二級毒品叫什麼?安非他命、大麻、搖頭丸、三乙是K他命你覺得喪屍煙案有沒有到二級的程度那麼嚴重?我們尊重法務部的決定法務部決定呢?"},{"start":15750.623,"end":15776.32,"text":"本委員報告我們將在下個禮拜的11月14號要召開審議委員會如果通過了就會改列部長謝謝您 待會您看螢幕就可以了我問這句問其他人好 來 國縣署請教一下電子煙透過網路銷售你們報告說網路上看到的所謂的電子糖果也可能是假冒的電子煙上四月份也是如此那目前在網路平台上所查售查獲的銷售的違禁品你們是財閥平台財閥賣家還是都罰都罰"},{"start":15779.763,"end":15797.139,"text":"都罰 都罰 那麥家草都到嗎麥家目前我們採 確實比較困難但是跟委員報告麥家我們現在採除了115件好 麥家草來往前 繼續我們那個牛司長還有 來我們看看 跟你講一個過程來 很快的"},{"start":15798.308,"end":15823.605,"text":"通常呢,賣違禁品他找到人頭在電商平台,被抓到就裁罰平台但是呢,如果這個人頭也被裁罰的話呢他就再換個人頭,就有無限的循環其實呢,最困難的是什麼你裁罰平台,可能但是你要裁罰到人頭因為有的人是持售出借或者他宣稱被盜用,我們可能看下一頁其實呢,上市有沒有可能循這個方式銷售呃,陳副局長,刑事警察局有沒有可能會不會用這個電商平台銷售"},{"start":15829.072,"end":15856.042,"text":"我想他包裝的形式很多,這個我們也不太清楚那請問一下檢法務部司長出借平台帳號販售違禁煙品有沒有什麼法律責任到目前為止可能幫助犯的部分還可以用得上那這個可能要個案來OK,出借平台其實遇到的法律制裁相對的風險低往下看所以我們看一下電商平台,請問牛司長是不是要落實KYC"},{"start":15857.148,"end":15882.92,"text":"這部分我們素產署正在處理當中那我等一下請素產署好來我繼續講目前我們素產署第三方置戶的時候他可以自願加入能量登錄但是如果你不加入你就沒辦法用洗防法來約束他因此如果他加入你可以落實KYCKYC說你出現人頭你就不能推脫但是他如果不加入你不能確定他是被盜用所以被抓到的話他都宣稱說我是被盜用署長副署長是不是這樣子"},{"start":15886.927,"end":15889.781,"text":"目前是要求都是要用實名的方式。謝謝"},{"start":15890.854,"end":15916.792,"text":"目前要求對阿德福能量登錄事實上差很多往下看什麼意思呢詐騙去哪有三種方法他不用進入你的三方支付比如說我在7月4號就問過了他用條碼現金掃條碼去換什麼虛擬貨幣或他用外國信用卡我在10月26號問過財政委員會或者說他透過直播主他去買點數他用遊戲點數來充當賣給直播主其實這個過程都查不到您知道嗎"},{"start":15918.203,"end":15945.006,"text":"都查不到嗎?你查不到路徑嗎?那請問司長那個法務部的司長查不到路徑你能夠罰嗎?因為我們個案上找不到真正的被告是的,所以找不到嘛所以就遏止不了往下看所以呢我在10月7號的時候呢問過我們部長部長說欸我們在平台上無法追征的這個教育用洗髮法納管你支持點數也要納管嗎?牛司長那時候部長是不是都支持?是"},{"start":15946.046,"end":15946.186,"text":"副主長"},{"start":15968.155,"end":15985.453,"text":"因為時間的關係你講不出來我告訴你今天為什麼我的重點要讓部長知道讓政務部長知道因為現在透過很多網路上下一頁我們用遊戲點數用其他的方式主管機關如果不能要求電商平台達到所有的都要納管KYC金流的部分"},{"start":15985.953,"end":16012.478,"text":"平台沒有鬧管KYC你就是在家中裁罰平台這些人頭還是很容易找到啦他也不用去繳交犯罪所得所以 最後一頁好 我們往下看齁 最後一頁齁所以呢 電商平台販售的這個鼻息棒政務長 最後一題問你齁你知道有著鼻息棒嗎現在學生可以去買鼻息棒喔它是電子煙的替代品有沒有聽過沒有聽過署長彭署長 你有沒有聽過鼻息棒"},{"start":16014.613,"end":16020.416,"text":"請教育部要嚴防學生現在如果沒有電子煙他們就用這個方式取代最後我的結論主席站起來了是不是請我們在座包括我們的政部長包括我們的訴發署"},{"start":16036.165,"end":16047.475,"text":"法務部,透過人頭於網路平台上洗錢及電商平台販售違禁品,有效溯源去溯源犯罪者,以點數交易者異同,用這個方案提出了一個出面報告。"},{"start":16052.967,"end":16079.345,"text":"可以協助教育部你們要認真看這一本這本就知道現在的學生怎麼樣去弄了謝謝謝謝主席謝謝各位謝謝鍾嘉斌委員各位請回座因為不好意思真的我們兩點還有一個法案協商所以不好意思那接下來我們有請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員不在接下來我們有請葉元芝委員質詢時間8加2"},{"start":16089.52,"end":16097.972,"text":"麻煩請教育部、衛福部、法務部、警政署、事務發布以上五位,謝謝委員好A4部長好"},{"start":16106.792,"end":16133.44,"text":"我們今天討論電子煙那剛剛也有很多人提到現在很多毒品透過電子煙的形式讓大家可以用這個方式來吸毒特別是有一個新興毒品叫伊托蜜酯這個毒品現在大家大家都非常關注為什麼呢光是三個月內就有兩個警察因為跟就是這些毒價的關係有人毒價關係所以上升不幸的殉職大家都非常難過"},{"start":16134.758,"end":16156.724,"text":"但我們發現說針對這一個新興的毒品我們現在政府的管制還是非常的遲緩這個毒非常的恐怖為什麼它叫做上司煙彈或上司毒是因為吸了之後就會跟殭屍一樣它會沒有失去知覺這麼恐怖"},{"start":16159.105,"end":16178.933,"text":"那照道理來講我們政府單位應該要想辦法全面的防避讓這個毒品來販售嘛可是你知道它有多氾濫嗎我給各位在場的所有官員看一下我們隨便在網路上都找得到耶這是在臉書隨便你只要Google關鍵字它的學名或者是中文依托咪子就有人在賣"},{"start":16180.527,"end":16196.955,"text":"除了這樣就算了還有社團有一個公開社團專門在討論這個依託彌子然後甚至於在討論怎麼交易用什麼方式交易呢我跟你講多誇張好不好這是另外在臉書上查到的啦"},{"start":16197.895,"end":16218.76,"text":"那你如果去跟他對話我的助理去跟他對話問他要怎麼買他說你哪個地區臺北市可以面交嗎可以啊我們現在的臺北市首都居然可以面交去買毒品欸我先問我先問那個蘇阿布蘇阿布是師長是不是你們對於網路的控管到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":16225.014,"end":16243.663,"text":"報告委員這涉及刑事案件是警政署在處理所以不關你們書發部的事啊不是因為這是網路欸大家對於書發部的期待都是希望能夠針對網路有些犯罪行為書發部要用你們的網路技術來做防弊嘛結果你居然說這是警政署的事好謝謝書發部我知道你們態度了那警政署書發部說是你們的事啊是你們辦事不利啦所以網路社團才出現這個狀況你可以接受嗎"},{"start":16254.175,"end":16269.582,"text":"報告委員 我想我們網路查緝這一塊我們也是投了很多心力啦但是我們也有網路 專門在網路刑查如果這部分有這些信息我們都會立案欸 Google關鍵字查得到啊Google需要花你多少時間需要多少多少回答啊"},{"start":16276.294,"end":16301.944,"text":"我想網站查你當然很快對啊那為什麼你們會查不到那你們如果說查不到你請書發部透過一些程式方式屏蔽可不可以可不可以根委員報告這兩部分你剛才講的這部分也許我們地區有在立案偵查因為是個案的方式我這個不是很清楚但是如果說個案當然你不清楚嘛我現在講的是說隨便都搜得到嘛我覺得我光跟書發部光跟檢討講話我就覺得難怪這個毒品會這麼氾濫的嘛"},{"start":16305.945,"end":16319.061,"text":"一個書發布說不管我的事你們連透過你們的網路技術去防避你都覺得跟你無關另外警政署說哎呀我們今天很辛苦了啦然後自己又承認說啊Google當然很容易啊你們兩個機關到底知道你們在講什麼嗎"},{"start":16320.307,"end":16337.942,"text":"好 你們到底知道在講什麼嗎好 繼續 我們繼續來看喔我們其實實際上是編了很多的防毒的預算嘛總共分三期第一期編了100億好 第二期150億我們現在正要編第三期150億這是你們的預算分配啦其中我們的"},{"start":16339.417,"end":16354.991,"text":"防毒的預算大概超過一半都是用在戒毒那在驗毒的部分大概只編了7.69而已啊只編了7.69那最誇張是什麼呢請問一下警政署你們現在有沒有在買脫民衣紙的快篩試劑有沒有"},{"start":16356.719,"end":16384.105,"text":"目前我們已經有配花九千七百七九千七嘛對不對對然後你覺得夠嗎當然這個後期我們會你覺得夠嗎你覺得夠嗎目前在數量上當然還有在不足但是對好那請教一下現在不夠的原因是因為你你覺得太貴沒有經費還是你買不到跟委員報告因為一脫名職六月三十幾是進來的事那第七所以是買不到是不是不是買不到因為還是沒有經費在第一章本來這個"},{"start":16385.576,"end":16414.015,"text":"願賭的經費都地方在編列啦地方編列所以又退給地方那地方經費夠不夠你有去問嗎因為都新增了業務啊事實上我們在今年啦我們在年底我們最近也剛撥了一筆經費給地方要他們來購買這一些相關的東西那所以會跟你們警政署無關了是地方的事我們已經警政署編列一整排資源給地方我跟您報告喔九千七根本就不夠啦很多地方的派出所只分到一支啦那一支他不敢用啦"},{"start":16415.066,"end":16437.332,"text":"因為只有一支啦,政局一支寶啦,不敢用啦。我們總共有一千六百多個派出所,你如果加偵查隊,加上各個寶大,你覺得夠嗎?一個地方可能就分到三四支,一個晚上就用完了啦,大家不敢用啦。所以你們告訴我們說你們要棄毒,連這個四季都不夠你棄什麼毒啦?這個要怎麼去解決?"},{"start":16441.218,"end":16469.266,"text":"報告委員、警政署這邊補充報告剛剛陳委員這邊垂詢我們現在目前針對已經採購9000多劑的部分我們在追加現在目前採購一萬多一萬兩千一萬兩千還是不夠嘛我剛剛就跟你講嘛九千七百劑的狀況之下有的派出所只有一劑啦那你派出所變兩劑我們現在有一萬六千四百劑也追加兩百三十幾萬還是不夠啦你現在是沒有錢還是買不到嘛我們有經費也有給有經費也買得到是不是那你不願意買是為什麼"},{"start":16470.486,"end":16473.692,"text":"請你們去補足好不好請你們去補足請你們去補足好 謝謝那另外這跟再不有關因為像是國教聯盟也有特別有提到有針對我剛剛講那個議題"},{"start":16483.496,"end":16505.989,"text":"就有提到就是說這個網路的監控力道根本不足法律雖然禁止網路的販售但是根本沒有嚴格的查緝機制因為今天在場所有官員部長你的位階最高只有你可能平常會跟行政院長開會請你把剛剛各單位他們回答我的問題的回答方式跟院長講一下好不好他們就是偷推來推去也不認為這是一件事"},{"start":16507.256,"end":16529.526,"text":"但是實際上今天來教育文化委員會是因為大家非常擔心校園會發生這個狀況可是各單位就是那個樣子你有看到嗎?所以請部長跟院長報告這個事情可以嗎?可以嗎?可以嗎?可以好 蘇巴布說網路監控跟他無關警政署的事警政署說他已經很累了這些狀況跟他講喔第二個校園檢測跟執行也很困難傳統的檢測方法對電子煙也無效所以這個問題要怎麼解決?"},{"start":16537.981,"end":16564.298,"text":"我講我們確實現在目前在做就是比較就是一個從宣導到尿特殊學生的這個尿液篩檢然後到春葵莊就是說檢驗方式很困因為我的了解現在的校園就是針對傳統的菸的方式去檢測嘛我們在這個部我們我們對學生的一個人權有一定的因為教育單位我們必須要對每個學生的一個人權"},{"start":16565.739,"end":16584.093,"text":"所以這個部我們會跟這個衛福部還有這個警政署、法務部裡邊我們會合作怎麼做嗎?怎麼做啊?這個怎麼做啊?這個國教行動聯盟意見也可能也不會給我們嘛網路上看到應該也會給你們你們要怎麼做嗎?"},{"start":16587.563,"end":16606.911,"text":"我們為什麼受這一個檢測就是說懷疑所裡面檢測然後剛才委員所提的有許多的那些檢測的試劑我們現在大概並沒有針對好你等一下去思考一下好不好看起來是沒準備啦檢測試劑如果你們能夠購買的話買一些啦"},{"start":16609.432,"end":16628.246,"text":"好再來還有一個議題可能剛剛有些委員有問到就是移民署有通函給外交部、勞動部、教育部所有一個美國的有性犯罪的前科的一個人已經入境了那就我的了解教育部好像也有發文給一些學校教育局通過教育局發文給一些學校幼兒園也有"},{"start":16628.826,"end":16655.233,"text":"就是希望他們能夠知道有這個狀況然後如果要聘外師的話這個是高風險族群對吧你沒有做這個事吧但是我現在不解的是一件事情針對國外的這樣有性犯罪前科的人我們教育部可以做這個動作可是為什麼針對我們國內有性犯罪前科的人卻不能做這個動作舉例來講前一段時間有爆發一個幼兒園有一個毛性的老師性侵害了39個兒童"},{"start":16657.489,"end":16682.639,"text":"我特別去問了一些幼兒園的園長我說教育部有沒有通知你們說這個人有問題請你們以後不要有機會的話也要特別小心你們可能會撤交他的執照嘛撤交執照讓他沒有辦法讓他不能這樣做但是有沒有只要一有類似的狀況就立刻同意做任何的防避機制有沒有"},{"start":16683.675,"end":16703.636,"text":"事實上如果有這個違反這個兒少或是性侵這些的案例我們事實上都會通報會通報是不是會通報會通報可是我問就沒有啊我問我問委員我就說他就我問他說欸那國外的有通報國內有通報嗎他說沒有啦國外的有啦所以國外的比較嚴重國內的比較不嚴重"},{"start":16705.499,"end":16723.829,"text":"這個問題我覺得非常奇怪第二個問題因為這個事情被媒體報導之後後來移民署就有接到很多記者的查證記者後來就直接公布了這個美國人他的長相、他的基本資料全部把它公布出來所以現在全台灣都知道他是誰了可是為什麼每一次只要是國內有發生這個狀況媒體都不敢報導"},{"start":16727.11,"end":16741.762,"text":"比如就要說某某幼兒園然後或者是某某毛信老師甚至於什麼信都不敢講為什麼台灣的媒體碰到A4事件的時候都不能夠公佈為什麼是因為被衛福部保護師恐嚇過還是怎樣衛福有來嗎為什麼為什麼國外的可以國內的不行"},{"start":16750.365,"end":16767.481,"text":"國務委員報告我是衛福部保護服務司那有關於那個兒犬法是有規定69條是有規定是針對兒少的個資是不能公佈的所以可以負向的行為是就是如果兒童可以待但為什麼上一次所有媒體都不敢公佈那位狼屍的資料為什麼"},{"start":16769.534,"end":16792.329,"text":"可能是媒體比較擔心沒有媒體講說都不敢啊因為私下你們都會跟他說不行啊你們公開講都說可以但是他們私下接受的訊息都是不可以所以他們不敢公布啊那你現在公開呼籲說以後大家所有的媒體都可以比照好不好只要有發生類似事件不管是國外國內有媒體查證我們一律可以公布他的全部的資料給國人警惕這樣可以嗎"},{"start":16793.209,"end":16793.289,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":16823.069,"end":16824.93,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們教育部正部長還有我們體育署署長"},{"start":16853.936,"end":16857.139,"text":"中華隊下下禮拜就要在和平籃球館打亞洲盃的一個資格賽。但有一件事情,第一天過去,我們國家隊參賽的一個協議,"},{"start":16875.526,"end":16890.646,"text":"在今年年初的時候我去質詢整個選手保險的事情那個時候最根究底其實是書上很清楚啦球員公會跟協會沒有簽署參賽的一個協議那你們後來也都要求去研議出一個公版的一個團體協約可是呢"},{"start":16891.187,"end":16912.982,"text":"我後來在委員會再三跟部長跟署長有確認過當前我們最需要的是參賽的一個協議而不是團體的一個協約本來大家都講得很好聽說在今年的窮世悲之前就可以完成可是呢半年又過去了那我想先請問部長跟署長就是說這尤其是體育署深圍攔血的主管機關這參賽協議你們最終你們到底什麼時候可以做一個橋樑"},{"start":16921.267,"end":16946.999,"text":"報告委員那藍協的跟球員公會在上一次的協商的過程當中出現了蠻大的意見的歧見所以當時有雙方不歡而散的終止這個部分那我們一直在建立這樣的橋樑但是在這一次的集訓我們有強力要求不管是不是有簽訂協商的內容但是他的要求一定要先做到那預期是這一次的短期集訓結束之後馬上再"},{"start":16947.919,"end":16948.9,"text":"請教育部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利"},{"start":16962.836,"end":16984.773,"text":"我要來就教的就是說我們這個整個國家隊的一個後勤這些問題就這一次中華男男去參加亞洲盃的一個資格賽那藍鞋這個地方也公布15個人的一個名單新聞稿裡面去強調說這一次體育署的一個支持中華隊後勤人力也增加了物理治療師跟心理諮商師為我們選手提供更專業的一個資源聽到這個我們都給你們拍手了一定給你們拍拖但是"},{"start":16988.516,"end":17011.405,"text":"我長期其實在對於這一些我們國家隊的一個候請資源這個部分也都給你們建議我們部裡面也都大力這樣一個支持可是你們特別注意一下我這一次我也接到了投訴就目前你們這個心理諮商師在衛福部醫事人員查詢職業登記裡面沒有相關的一個資料"},{"start":17012.185,"end":17040.258,"text":"那就是說這一位專業人員我們本來就為了只怕避免說只有配置一位防護員嘛還要承擔十幾個人這樣防護的一個工作所以國家後勤隊的編制去補上了以後可是這個資格的問題署長要特別去注意就是說我們在心理師法第5條裡面就規範非領有臨床心理師跟諮商心理師的證書你不得使用臨床心理師跟諮商的一個名稱"},{"start":17041.559,"end":17068.989,"text":"您有掌握這個訊息嗎報告委員這部分我們昨天有先掌握訊息那我想第一件事情是籃球協會對於心理諮商這件事情有很大的誤解所以我就擔心這個他需要是Performance是一個運動表現是心理諮商老師運動心理諮商老師而不是心理諮商師所以這部分所以協會這樣誤解我們這樣部裡面署裡面去給他支持那你弄這個到最後人家爆料我們這邊那一個處理之後我們"},{"start":17071.09,"end":17079.6,"text":"出一集讓他們煮完了變成我們又違法這個我認為是協會真的是誤解了啦那這個部分體育署這個地方應該馬上這個部分要去弄一個指引出來這樣可能會比較好啦因為以後還是會碰到這樣的一個問題那"},{"start":17089.23,"end":17111.04,"text":"其實我們可能在整個運動心理方面專長的人員我們怎麼樣去讓他更符合運動員實際上的一個需求我們國民體育法第10條規定的很清楚中央主管機關本來應該建立體育專業人員的進修跟檢定的一個資格尤其像是防護員的一個部分那現在呢"},{"start":17112.438,"end":17135.055,"text":"有這樣的一個事情本席這樣建議啦我們既然一直在走進步的路那現在所謂的體育專業的部分也不只只有防護員而已是不是啊部裡面或署裡面可以研議建立更多領域的專業人員的進修跟檢定這樣的一個制度這一條路你是必要走的請問署長報告委員那我前一陣子的確有把運動心理諮商老師的團隊跟諮商心理師的工會"},{"start":17139.839,"end":17143.462,"text":"鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員不在吳春城委員、吳春城委員、吳春城委員不在賴世保委員、賴世保委員、賴世保委員不在"},{"start":17170.37,"end":17197.37,"text":"好,今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢那我們另有林怡瑾、林倩琦、吳春成、翁曉琳四位委員提出書面質詢關於今天的會議我們做成如下的決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":17198.352,"end":17201.464,"text":"報告委員會今天的議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":17228.148,"end":17232.91,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17294.608,"end":17295.33,"text":"就幫忙一下這樣"}]}},{"id":"16241","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16241","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea53a1fc3a982fb6120f9a65472a0a5ac3083084566cc2bdb4a0b70f801bba37e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"「國土計畫法修正草案」第一次初步審查會議（事由：「國土計畫法修正草案」第一次初步審查會議）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-07T08:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-07T11:46:00+08:00","duration":11714,"影片長度":"03:15:14","委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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我們請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會 出席委員八人已足法定人數好 現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀今日議程國土計畫法修正草案第一次初步審查會議 宣讀完畢好 針對國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":1951.048,"end":1972.492,"text":"繼由本院委員丁學忠委員等人提出的19個版本提案有鑒於國土計畫將於明年5月正式啟動它的相關影響效應以及紛擾漸次顯現所以本席除了在113年10月24日舉辦公聽會之外"},{"start":1976.633,"end":1977.374,"text":"第二次初步審查會議．"},{"start":2007.153,"end":2008.574,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":2035.786,"end":2037.367,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":2060.125,"end":2086.628,"text":"現在本席來介紹在場的委員以及列席的官員我們在場的委員有王美惠委員黃婕委員還有張志倫委員我們列席的官員有我們的內政部長 劉世芳部長"},{"start":2089.475,"end":2112.402,"text":"還有原住民委員會的政務副主任委員杜章梅莊副主任委員農業部的部長陳俊濟部長還有經濟部產業園區管理局的副局長曾淑芬曾副局長財政部國有財產署專門委員張潔祐專委"},{"start":2118.076,"end":2122.417,"text":"法務部參事 廖江縣 廖參事國土署署長 吳興修署長國土管理署的國土計畫組組長 蘇崇哲組長"},{"start":2145.336,"end":2169.857,"text":"原民會的土地管理處處長 謝雅潔處長農業部資源永續利用司司長 莊老達莊司長農糧署副署長 黃昭新副組長農村發展及水土保持署的組長 蔡秀婉組長在後面 謝謝"},{"start":2171.479,"end":2174.241,"text":"經濟部綜合規劃司專門委員 劉玉蘭經濟部產業發展署工商輔導中心副主任 張維聖經濟部能源局檢任"},{"start":2191.122,"end":2215.497,"text":"計政嚴維旭檢任計政經濟部水利署檢任政工程師鄭清涵政工程師以及經濟部地質調查及礦業管理中心檢任計政李俊彰好 檢任計政財政部國庫署專門委員何惠麗何專委好 謝謝"},{"start":2221.495,"end":2243.272,"text":"以上是我們相關列席的行政官員接著我們今天出席的我們今天邀請各直轄市及各縣市政府的"},{"start":2245.074,"end":2249.076,"text":"臺北市政府督發局綜合企劃科科長江中信科長新北市政府城鄉發展局主任秘書謝登武"},{"start":2269.448,"end":2296.431,"text":"桃園市政府督發局國土計畫科科長湯靜雯湯科長臺中市政府督發局局長李政委李局長臺南市政府督發局副總工程師楊嘉明副總工程師高雄市政府督發局副總工程師薛淵仁副總工程師"},{"start":2298.403,"end":2314.7,"text":"新竹縣政府地政處地用科科長周怡銘周科長苗栗縣政府工商發展處產業科科長蘇英麗蘇科長南投縣政府地政處副處長陳錫慶副處長"},{"start":2321.648,"end":2330.453,"text":"南投縣政府建設處副處長陳錫慶陳副處長地政處張惠瓊副處長張化縣政府建設處副處長陳明南副處長雲林縣政府副縣長謝淑雅 謝副縣長"},{"start":2346.601,"end":2351.327,"text":"嘉義縣政府經濟發展處國土計畫科科長鄭新儀科長平東縣政府地政處副處長林浩存副處長宜蘭縣政府建設處處長潘亮宇副處長"},{"start":2366.614,"end":2374.718,"text":"花蓮縣政府地政處地用科科長 劉鴻邦科長臺東縣政府建設處都市計畫科科長 陳鼎榮科長金門縣政府參議 張瑞欣張參議連江縣政府秘書長 張榮德張秘書長"},{"start":2392.027,"end":2400.713,"text":"基隆市政府國土計畫科科長林嘉斌新竹市政府參議陳永元嘉義市政府都市發展處處長許淮群"},{"start":2425.567,"end":2439.551,"text":"本日會議的程序宣告如下我們會先請部會簡短報告之後再請各直轄市及縣市政府的代表依出席簽到的順序為原則我們每位發言的時間6分鐘"},{"start":2446.367,"end":2475.136,"text":"還有需要再發言的我們可以有第二輪還可以有第二輪那本院委員要發言的請至主席台登記我們會在兩位各直轄市及縣市代表發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言時間是五分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明但是本席因為看今天各縣市各直轄市的"},{"start":2475.796,"end":2475.836,"text":"主席"},{"start":2506.036,"end":2510.159,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言時間結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言時間結束則按鈴兩聲現在我們請部會報告首先請內政部長劉部長釋放報告"},{"start":2537.218,"end":2539.2,"text":"主席,我有一個問題沒有沒有,你誤會了,因為...我的意思是,剛才聽你這樣,我很高興的,覺得說你長輩子的職位,還那麼名利"},{"start":2567.858,"end":2585.49,"text":"對對,不要誤會我知道你的意思啦我剛才的意思就是說,我們自己的立場搞亂了啦"},{"start":2592.588,"end":2601.639,"text":"因為我剛才聽主席說的時候 我覺得很命令的 讓地方做不夠的 還是要怎麼補充的 但是聽到外面的人說是地方所有管制 都要來接受這個官員 這樣就不對了"},{"start":2610.089,"end":2633.819,"text":"你誤會了啦沒問題李博義委員也先發言完我再統一回應我會議詢問一下首先我先肯定主席今天有這麼多的縣市的督發局甚至有副縣長來到這裡比起昨天的財委會陳其邁市長本人來到財委會連講話的機會都沒有我覺得先肯定主席"},{"start":2636.543,"end":2645.913,"text":"主席在接下來的安排裏面 包含讓縣市出席的人這這麼難得的機會 有機會可以表示一下意見之後"},{"start":2647.125,"end":2669.066,"text":"那感覺你要內政部回應這很奇怪啦我來說明好不好我來建議主席一下我們是不是可以做一個交流因為我知道國土署跟縣市政府也都有很多的交流那我們是不是透過今天的交流有更進一步的這種對話而不是去質詢內政部我覺得這個主席還是要做一下才是"},{"start":2669.346,"end":2695.484,"text":"好 對 謝謝王美惠委員：李柏毅委員的憂心但你們誤會了因為我們在之前的公聽會也好包含今天的我們讓中央跟地方可以有互相對話而且讓我們中央瞭解地方的疑慮跟困境的時候我們有發現同樣一個問題每一個人都上來講"},{"start":2698.926,"end":2717.278,"text":"假設同樣的問題有七八個縣市 他們都有類似的問題因為沒有得到解答 所以他們可能 譬如說三個講完以後 第四個第五個他還是會講一樣的問題我們只是想讓整個的會議時間更有效率 所以不是質詢"},{"start":2719.679,"end":2721.061,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":2737.961,"end":2739.141,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":2756.986,"end":2761.368,"text":"中央很快的釋疑,後面有類似的問題其實就可以略過,你可以談其他的問題我不知道這樣的說明委員們是不是還是有疑慮"},{"start":2778.996,"end":2780.017,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整"},{"start":2794.854,"end":2795.334,"text":"會議員：完整會議"},{"start":2817.501,"end":2820.882,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":2848.872,"end":2854.536,"text":"首先對於各位委員對內政部國土計畫業務推動的關注跟指導表示有種感謝今天內政委員會召開國土計畫法修正草案第一次初步審查會議內政部應邀列席報告深感榮幸"},{"start":2870.988,"end":2894.506,"text":"緊究國土計畫法法定工作的辦理情形以及地方政府關切議題的處理情形依序說明如下第一因為在98年莫拉克颱風也就是我們所說的八八風災以及歷年颱風的侵襲造成國土崩塌土石流等複合性的災難喚醒國人對於國土保育的重視為了因應氣候變遷確保國土安全促進資源與產業的合理配置"},{"start":2899.009,"end":2922.8,"text":"本法也就是國土計畫法經過大院三讀通過以及總統公佈以後從105年5月1日開始施行其後按照行政院核定的全國國土計畫指示為了給予地方政府合理作業期程嚴提國土計畫法部分條文修正草案並且也是經過大院三讀通過以後在109年4月21日由總統公佈施行"},{"start":2926.201,"end":2954.255,"text":"就《國土計畫法》法定的工作辦理情形的部分截至今日為止已經有14個地方政府提交國土功能分區圖到內政部本部已經完成包括連江縣在內的四個縣市的審議作業其餘縣市也持續由本部國土署陸續檢核並且召開本部的國審會專案小組會議審查那這個進度的部分也爐列在給各位委員的這個"},{"start":2955.376,"end":2961.04,"text":"本法相關執法本部已發布15項,其中外界最關切的國土計畫土地使用管制規則的草案也經過本部法規會完成審議,其餘執法也將陸續在113年底 完成"},{"start":2978.032,"end":2987.358,"text":"內政部已經協助盤點需要配合修正的目的事業法律由各部會依業務需求評估優先修正順序提報行政院"},{"start":2993.422,"end":3013.776,"text":"此外,內政部也透過各項行政作為﹐並且利用國土永續發展基金編列經費﹐積極協助地方政府﹐也積極參與地方政府相關會議﹐並且拜會地方首長溝通﹐在8月、9月分別舉辦政策說明會﹐說明政策方向﹐並且澄清各界的疑慮"},{"start":3014.597,"end":3041.582,"text":"透過國土計畫的實施﹐將可解決過去數十年﹐非都市土地全國一致的管制標準﹐沒有主動檢討機制的發展課題﹐包括賦予地方政府規劃權及主導權﹐透過縣市國土計畫及鄉村地區整體規劃﹐來務實回應地方的需求﹐同時得訂定計畫﹐來處理長年外界所關心向原住民住宅﹐"},{"start":3042.122,"end":3042.682,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":3062.073,"end":3063.234,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":3079.429,"end":3099.549,"text":"二、地方政府如有產業或者聚落發展的需求應該依照本法規定在國土計畫上路後即時啟動通盤檢討或者是辦理鄉村地區整體規劃完成法定程序以後具以調整國土功能分區劃設情形以及另訂適宜的土地管制規定"},{"start":3100.39,"end":3101.17,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":3122.159,"end":3122.88,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":3147.122,"end":3147.282,"text":"主席"},{"start":3177.282,"end":3202.69,"text":"最後,針對外界關切違規查處及檢舉獎勵部分國土計畫對於一般小面積違規的法則與現行規定相同大型開發案件造成國土的重大破壞才會是違規情節適用較高法則至於檢舉獎勵機制配合近年相關精進作為也配合各位委員的建議已經取消小面積違規檢舉案件的獎勵機制"},{"start":3205.091,"end":3222.117,"text":"只有重大違規檢舉案件才會發給獎勵金截於目前大院已經有22個提案修正版本對於第45條國土功能分區圖公告期限因為各委員提案修正版本及延長的期限方式各有不同"},{"start":3222.677,"end":3239.386,"text":"本部原則仍然以現行條文所定其成﹐積極推動﹐並且尊重大院審查決議至於委員提案所涉及其他條文﹐包括第七條﹐二十三條﹐三十五條﹐四十條條文部分﹐也將與大院進行條文審查時配合說明"},{"start":3240.982,"end":3260.004,"text":"綜合上面的報告內政部將根據辦理及協助地方政府完成法定的工作事項並且持續跟地方政府有關部會及各界以及委員互相溝通協調以利國土計畫制度如期上路進一步可以促進國家永續發展以上說明請各位委員多多指教謝謝"},{"start":3264.124,"end":3271.081,"text":"好,謝謝劉部長接下來請原民會的政務副主委杜璋梅莊副主委"},{"start":3279.205,"end":3306.999,"text":"主席各位委員以及參與本次審查會議的中央機關代表跟地方政府的代表大家好大家平安今天本會應邀到委員會列席就國土計畫法草案第一次初步審查會議進行報告承蒙各委員對此議題的關心敬請各位委員先進會議指導我們知道區計畫法公布的時候有26萬多公頃的原住民保護地有將近七成都變為聯業用地"},{"start":3308.133,"end":3318.099,"text":"導致部落族人面臨土地受限的問題也造成今天部落的建地不足、耕地不足跟公共設施不足等問題也間接的造成"},{"start":3318.752,"end":3342.241,"text":"文化傳承經濟產業發展生技受影響等困境國土計畫法議定在明年的5月1號全面上路本會在內政部研擬的國土計畫法時的階段有積極的爭取應納入尊重及保障原住民族土地相關條文因此才有後來國土計畫法第23條明定由內政部會同本會共同訂定原住民族土地使用規則並因依"},{"start":3344.673,"end":3369.78,"text":"原住民族基本法第21條規定法令涉及限制原住民族利用原住民族土地及自然資源時應與部落諮商說明聽取族人的意見又因國土計畫法土地使用管制規則的指導原則國土規劃應尊重原住民族傳統慣習及土地利用方式滿足原住民族部落生活社會經濟的需求建立和諧"},{"start":3370.816,"end":3394.744,"text":"的土地使用管制以原住民族傳統慣習為目標等面向本會自109年9月開始有已經送了五次的版本原住民族土地使用規則的草案送到內政部那最後一次是在今年的8月14號那內政部也在今年的10月7號、22號召開了原住民族土地使用規則機關的演商會議後續本會將持續配合"},{"start":3398.917,"end":3418.85,"text":"相關單位的這個機關研商會議的進行那接下來針對這次委員提的各項的提案,裡面有涉及到本會全者的部分,做一個簡要的說明第一個部分是有關鄭天才委員：所提出的《國土計畫法修正草案》第七條第四項及第23條,涉及部落及部落周邊一定範圍"},{"start":3420.396,"end":3447.537,"text":"這個部分本會有研擬原住民族土地使用規則適用土地的範圍為原住民族土地法令適用範圍皆以涵蓋部落及部落周邊一定範圍的土地第二部分是原住民基本法第21條第一項規定政府或私人與原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內置公有土地從事土地開發、資源利用、生態保育以學術研究應諮詢並取得原住民族或部落同意或參與"},{"start":3448.632,"end":3472.488,"text":"原住民得分享相關利益,該條之規範主體與名列部落及其周邊一定範圍中上本會建議本草案第七條第四項的文字,前兩項審議事項涉及原住民族土地部落及部落周邊一定範圍者應有原住民族代表一人建議能夠修正成前兩項審議事項涉及原住民族土地應有原住民族代表一人"},{"start":3473.066,"end":3498.095,"text":"第二十三條第三項的文字前項規則中涉及原住民族土地海域部落及部落周邊一定範圍之管制者應維持現行的條文規定第二個部分是由政委員施拉卡趙所提出草案第三十五條即新增國土富裕出境地區之規劃涉及原住民族土地及部落者應經中央原住民族主管機關同意時的劃定"},{"start":3499.38,"end":3522.893,"text":"本會的意見是查國土計畫法第36條第一項業以明定國土復育促進地區經劃定者應以保育和禁止開發行為設施及設置為原則並由劃定機關擬定復育計畫報請中央目的事業主管機關核定後實施如涉及原住民族土地劃定機關應邀請原住民族部落參與計畫之擬定執行與管理"},{"start":3526.317,"end":3555.698,"text":"所以建議本草案第35條新增第4項應參照原住民基本法第21條第二項的文字內容及適用對象文字修正委第一項國土復議促進地區之劃定涉及原住民族土地應經部落同意時的劃定最後一個部分是有各委員有提到草案第45條涉及公告國土功能分區土質日期要展現這個部分本會尊重大院的審查結果並配合辦理"},{"start":3556.553,"end":3558.34,"text":"最後國土計畫"},{"start":3559.737,"end":3587.346,"text":"將有助於輔導原住民族土地使用取得合法對原住民是一個轉變的契機本會業已完成研擬原住民族土地使用規則草案將與內政部如期共同會嫌公告完成法制作業本會將持續依循國土計畫法第23條規定及全國國土計畫原住民族土地使用指導原則以尊重及保存原住民族傳統文化"},{"start":3588.183,"end":3590.044,"text":"好,謝謝園民會的報告接著我們請農業部陳部長竣記報告"},{"start":3614.286,"end":3630.877,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家好那今天封邀到大院內政委員會就國土計畫法修正草案第一次初步審查會議進行報告那以下緊究農業部門的一個部分做一個說明請各位委員不定指教"},{"start":3632.649,"end":3652.264,"text":"國土計畫就成如剛才內政部所說的國土計畫在一百零五年的一月六號制定公佈五月一號施行以後那歷經了一次一百零九年四月二十一號有進行一次修正公告那目前是進到國土功能分區的第三的階段那有關國土計畫與農業部門有關的是農業發展區相關的這些"},{"start":3658.148,"end":3658.388,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3684.943,"end":3703.233,"text":"農業部後續部門的空間規劃,農村發展政策以及協調國土計畫下﹐有關於農地農取使用的項目規定﹐並推動各類的農業空間部件﹐並同時配合農田水利相關的建設管理﹐穩固農業生產區域的基盤整備﹐來促進農地資源永續利用與發展"},{"start":3713.589,"end":3731.18,"text":"農地劃入農業發展區,最主要是保障農民既有的權利,不會增加額外管制。農業發展區將充分提供經營土地的農民所需,不會增加農業使用管制及犧牲農民權益。"},{"start":3732.941,"end":3733.141,"text":"第三個部分："},{"start":3756.806,"end":3776.458,"text":"有關於農地資源的投入﹐其實是立基於﹐農民對於農業的一個經營﹐並維護農業環境來思考的本部將持續研議各種獎勵的措施所有的獎勵措施﹐基本上﹐是針對農民的一個耕作模式"},{"start":3777.278,"end":3777.358,"text":"主席"},{"start":3799.754,"end":3801.955,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":3824.437,"end":3825.137,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":3853.857,"end":3872.183,"text":"基本上他不會因為國土計畫是不是如其實施而改變換句話說國土計畫的實施跟我們農業的一些相關的政策的推動他並沒有一個直接的一個關聯性那我們整個農業部事實上"},{"start":3873.203,"end":3900.242,"text":"我們在農業發展區的一個推動未來的農業發展區不只是一個農業生產的基地那它更是在配合我們國家希望工程之下我們希望說透過整體的一個鄉村發展的一個規劃未來將會打造成一個以農村為發展中心的一個永續農業的一個發展體系那在這樣的一個思維之下"},{"start":3901.838,"end":3929.873,"text":"我們將和地方政府未來一定會持續努力共同建構穩定的農業生產永續的農業生態以及幸福的農村生活的一個整個農業的一個大願景那第五個部分在這邊要特別去強調在整個因應國土計畫在114年4月30日全面實施我們相關的部內的相關的一個法律包括區域計畫停止試用以後那本部"},{"start":3930.493,"end":3944.547,"text":"客針對農業用地、耕地還有林地的範圍及農業使用的認定以及涉及區域計畫法相關的規範進行法制作業的一個調整那最後我要跟各位委員說明國土計畫所帶來的影響"},{"start":3945.868,"end":3946.348,"text":"二次初步審查會議"},{"start":3966.861,"end":3967.462,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":3991.278,"end":4000.443,"text":"既有的農民的合法耕作的權益並加強推動友善的耕作措施以上報告 敬請各位委員執照"},{"start":4004.684,"end":4005.004,"text":"有在："},{"start":4033.297,"end":4033.878,"text":"主席"},{"start":4046.157,"end":4056.608,"text":"各位委員女士先生以及參與本次審查會議的中央機關代表還有各地方政府首長及代表大家好今天我們南投縣政府"},{"start":4065.794,"end":4066.034,"text":"國土計畫法草案修正草案"},{"start":4090.194,"end":4093.657,"text":"大會這邊在我們的公聽會的報告裡面從245頁到264頁都有詳細的說明那這次我們最主要是說我們本縣本府的一個疑慮跟困境那在我們本縣辦理國土功能分區畫社作業期程那在畫社的我們也開了52場次的公聽會在有諮詢會專案小組等大小會議"},{"start":4117.873,"end":4145.741,"text":"在一一三年一月十八號完成國土功能分區草案的審議在辦理國土分區功能化社中還有兩百多個人的陳情議會也在要求中央為就我們本府所提出的一億解明妥適的方案處理方案前暫不報送我們的國土功能分區土草案給予中央這部分是我們議會有這樣的決議"},{"start":4147.862,"end":4151.823,"text":"我們的疑慮就是說我們在國土功能分區草案暫緩報佈實施作業的相關原因在我們113年8月16號的時候內政部董政次也有率隊到我們本府訪談時我們也有充分跟他說明但我們仍有相關的問題我們稍微在會長跟大會報告"},{"start":4176.209,"end":4194.455,"text":"有關國土保育區內的農業使用土地應改化農業發展區的第三類之訴求國土署僅表示國土保育區第二類範圍的農牧用地如農業主管機關提供不影響國土保安、水源保護的必要之農業專營區"},{"start":4197.456,"end":4199.197,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":4223.59,"end":4223.71,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":4244.187,"end":4263.919,"text":"國土署已經持續更新相關圖資﹐違對圖資的主管機關﹐圖資的公告程序﹐更新的頻率﹐還有坐標系統與進度之要求仍未統一規範第六個是我們國土保育地域區地類上屬公有森林區﹐"},{"start":4265,"end":4265.58,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":4283.303,"end":4303.817,"text":"再來就是我們鄉村地區整體規劃作業遭遇的疑議：國土署僅表示仍需累積足夠後事實研議訂定相關的一個規範再來相關執法仍未完成訂定或修訂因涉及民眾的權益甚懼我們地方政府面對民眾的一個諮詢時"},{"start":4306.178,"end":4306.539,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":4329.581,"end":4330.422,"text":"第一次初步審查會議．"},{"start":4349.641,"end":4349.681,"text":"主席"},{"start":4367.148,"end":4368.789,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":4389.681,"end":4392.162,"text":"藍投縣議會同意後：暫行報佈辦理審議作業藍投縣做以上的報告謝謝張副處長接下來請嘉義縣政府經發處國土計畫科科長鄭新儀政科長"},{"start":4418.212,"end":4432.284,"text":"主席各位委員各位部會的主管以及各位縣市的代表大家早安那有關於今天的會議涉及國土計畫法修正法草案裡面所修正的事項的條文之中那其中有關於第7條第23條第35條的部分我們憲補的部分就是配合修正來辦理那有關於第45條涉及到"},{"start":4440.311,"end":4442.254,"text":"國土功能分區的其成部分目前嘉義縣政府的國土三階已經在今年的9月11日報到內政部來做審議縣府是尊重立法院審議的結果"},{"start":4456.075,"end":4456.536,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4478.837,"end":4484.224,"text":"好 謝謝鄭科長接下來我們請新竹市政府參議陳永元陳參議"},{"start":4492.641,"end":4517.296,"text":"主席還有各位委員女士先生還有中央部會的首長以及各縣市的代表大家早安那新竹市我想是比較目前有四個縣市已經通過了我們國土公文分區的一個審議所以我們的意見比較單純以下就有兩個意見來提出我們的說法第一個就是有關於我們提案有關於原住民族土地"},{"start":4517.978,"end":4518.058,"text":"主席"},{"start":4545.404,"end":4572.739,"text":"第二點就是有關提案修法涉及國土功能分區公告實施時間延後的議題那因為新竹市的國土功能分區已經在今年的113年的9月24號召開內政部的國土計畫審議會第31次的會議審議通過了那因為我們的人民團體的陳情意見較為單純而且沒有涉及重要的敏感議題"},{"start":4573.82,"end":4593.167,"text":"所以針對委員提案修正內容我們尊重那我們新竹市也後續將依照中央所定的時程來配合辦理以上是新竹市的意見 謝謝好 謝謝陳參議我們接著請臺南市政府督發局副總工程師楊副總工程師"},{"start":4600.466,"end":4627.441,"text":"主席各位先進大家好那臺南市政府在國土功能分區土的部分已經在今年的一百八月份已經報報布來進行審議那當然市政府這邊還是希望中央能加快審議的程序那後續會配合中央的政策方向依規定辦理那這一次有關立院部分立委提出國土法修正的部分臺南市政府沒有特別意見以上補充謝謝"},{"start":4630.856,"end":4638.863,"text":"謝謝楊副總工程師 接著請新北市政府城鄉發展局的主任秘書謝登武 謝祖密"},{"start":4641.229,"end":4662.781,"text":"主席、立委、中央各位長官、縣市政府、自家市政府、同仁、大家好、新北市政府、城鄉區、代表、報告我們的意見可能是全台灣意見最多,大概1300多件澄清案現在我們當然盡量處理,目前我已經開過一次大會,八次小組,接著還預備再開兩次"},{"start":4665.464,"end":4666.485,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":4691.82,"end":4692.781,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":4709.037,"end":4725.494,"text":"十月份已經完成了部內的法制手續那那個內涉的內容跟四月二十六號預告的材料好像又有點不一樣所以我們同一天在講的時候可能有一點會比較保守一點那希望這一步能夠趕快確定還有一些其他相關的執法"},{"start":4726.115,"end":4744.602,"text":"第二就是現在非都市開發許可案的轉軌機制按照國土計畫法的規定國土公能分局公布實施之後一切就按照新的法規已經在程序中的申請案到底要怎麼處理第二個問題就是說"},{"start":4747.318,"end":4766.189,"text":"因為規定是七一計畫法不再適用而非直接失效就在法制上名詞上好像我們撫念有些單位有些意義他不是用廢紙他說失效那我們到底能不能用一個不再適用這樣的字眼就駁回人民的深情愛有這樣子的問"},{"start":4767.09,"end":4767.71,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":4783.393,"end":4795.954,"text":"最大的就是很多人稱案件：絕大多數都針對國土功能分區化學原則稱有異議簡單講沒有人願意劃入國土保育地區所以原則可能還是要確定一點以後我們說明會比較"},{"start":4799.69,"end":4800.751,"text":"《國土計畫法修正草案》"},{"start":4814.409,"end":4814.91,"text":"國土計畫科科長林嘉賓林科長"},{"start":4850.716,"end":4858.624,"text":"那接下來請高雄市政府督發局的副總工程師 薛淵仁"},{"start":4863.526,"end":4880.747,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有各位與會的先進 剛是政府這邊來做一個說明那因為依據國土計畫法45條的一個規定那直轄市縣市國土計畫公告實施之後四年內必須依照這個中央主管機關指定的日期 並來公告這個"},{"start":4882.489,"end":4883.35,"text":"第二次初步審查"},{"start":4896.977,"end":4916.788,"text":"公能分區圖是不是要修法展援這個部分 高雄市政府支持然後配合這個中央主管機關內政部他目前規劃的這個政策方向跟他的期程這第一點那第二點就是說因為目前國土計畫法缺乏國土公能分區變更開發負擔回饋的機制以及整體開發的一個原則"},{"start":4918.829,"end":4929.677,"text":"因為後續各個地方政府都會去辦國土計畫的通盤檢討跟鄉郡地區的整體規劃後續如果說有一些農業發展區變更為城鄉發展區或是說農業發展區的第二類他要調整為農業發展區的第四類如果沒有這個變更負擔回饋的一個機制跟整體開發的一些法源依據的話"},{"start":4945.009,"end":4946.369,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":4973.278,"end":4974.86,"text":"謝謝薛副總工程師我們接著請金門縣政府參議張芮欣張參議"},{"start":5007.856,"end":5024.375,"text":"主席、各位委員、理事先生還有我們部會所長跟各縣市縣進大家早安、大家好本縣針對這次國土計畫法的修正因為我們也已經完成國土計畫功能分析圖的一個"},{"start":5025.756,"end":5043.67,"text":"報佈 而且審議通過在這裡我們表示支持部裡的決議我們會依照中央發布的期程來配合辦理那對於本次的一個我們答應的一個修法我們表示尊重 沒有其他意見 謝謝"},{"start":5046.128,"end":5048.532,"text":"苗栗縣政府工商發展處產發科科長蘇英麗蘇科長"},{"start":5059.334,"end":5084.223,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有與會單位大家好本縣的國土計畫三級二審查的會議已經完畢我們現在是正在修正的階段我們有提出一些突破畫社原則的調整在這邊我們是希望國土署可以依照它每一次下鄉跟我們長官承諾的各縣市政府都可以有一些因地制宜或者是市人民需求需要的一些調整"},{"start":5085.603,"end":5086.204,"text":"李政委 李局長"},{"start":5112.372,"end":5137.882,"text":"主席各位委員還有今天與會的各位縣市代表還有中央的部長還有署長我們感謝部長這邊跟署長下鄉做很多公聽會跟說明會也獲得很多指導跟授意那不曉得可不可以我們有一個主要檢要大綱大家一頁左右可不可以先要發下去因為我們分成兩部分第一部分是屬於臺中市政府是屬於針對法令的部分然後的修正意見"},{"start":5138.582,"end":5139.503,"text":"有關中央相關國土計畫法執法尚未完備"},{"start":5157.814,"end":5159.535,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":5180.285,"end":5206.386,"text":"所以明年直接上路的時候我遇到公告發佈實施之後地方的知識條例還沒完成修訂相關辦法沒有時間修訂我想這是第一個問題第二個 中央相關的執法上會定義我們部會的定位 業務的定位也影響地方全職的分工我以前是我都發局堆的是國土署然後那個地政局堆的是地政司可是他分工之後有些部分他流到國土署去了"},{"start":5206.906,"end":5207.787,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":5227.892,"end":5230.836,"text":"第三個,農業發展地區經過清查盤點之後,農地的總量管制雖然有各縣市確定,可是農一農二的權責分工,造成各縣市的混淆"},{"start":5247.236,"end":5247.877,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議："},{"start":5269.031,"end":5269.191,"text":"第三點議定"},{"start":5285.453,"end":5309.41,"text":"第四個意見,剛才也有提到,我非都市土地開發許可轉軌國土制的時候,要有明確使用彈性,以利先接因為我非都的開發許可裡面,牽涉到很多由新辦事業階段、小組審查階段、工展階段、工廳會階段還有甚至是大會審查修正階段,明年世界審查國土計畫的公告發布時是它的展延期限到世界審查就終止了"},{"start":5309.83,"end":5310.01,"text":"第四點意見"},{"start":5329.119,"end":5330.2,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":5352.617,"end":5354.278,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":5375.825,"end":5376.426,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":5400.569,"end":5419.021,"text":"產業用地需求會受到農地總量管制的部分如同我剛才所報告,產業用地的需求先需有這兩個部分地方發展產業區、科學園區的需求用地如果在明年之前還沒有完成相關的法令的部分的話是會變成農業區,那這個部分就影響地方發展甚至我們有產業區還是屬於未來的工廠的登記用地"},{"start":5423.464,"end":5426.728,"text":"第八點有關原住民基本法的部落範圍跟國土計畫公民分區的花色原則有產生競合"},{"start":5441.247,"end":5465.753,"text":"中央原住民委員會應該加速協調相關的原民部落跟原住民保留地的認定跟地方的一個相關實際發展的部分我們目前在圖資套會過程中原民部落跟原住民保留地還有實際發展的部分就發生圖資無法重疊跟相關的競合情形以至於一定沒辦法去整合跟重疊造成我們在分區跟用地劃定的時候沒辦法符合地方發展需求或實際發展需要"},{"start":5467.193,"end":5490.341,"text":"第二,原住民地區的土地﹐時常會有原旱增地的問題﹐這原旱增地的問題﹐使用情形混雜﹐這部分也會造成﹐農山跟﹐國保號的爭議﹐我想這是第八點意見第九,有部分是﹐原區域計畫費都市﹐土地轉化為國土計畫公民分區﹐資訊化商務完整必須跟委員會報告一下﹐國土計畫成鄉的發展﹐第一計畫是在﹐"},{"start":5492.682,"end":5494.084,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":5509.753,"end":5510.233,"text":"李玉璇議員"},{"start":5540.213,"end":5542.274,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":5566.988,"end":5567.148,"text":"許懷群 許處長"},{"start":5578.545,"end":5590.317,"text":"主席 各位委員以及各位議會代表加一市政府這邊報告加一市的國土功能分區我們已經在今年的10月15號報布內政部也在定於這個月11月12號來召開國土計畫會來審議我們目前在一日進度來執行也尊重立法院這邊審議的結果 謝謝"},{"start":5602.966,"end":5610.032,"text":"好,謝謝徐處長接著請花蓮縣政府地政處地用科科長劉鴻邦劉科長"},{"start":5621.846,"end":5649.454,"text":"主席各位與會代表大家好花蓮縣政府報告花蓮縣政府去年12月已經辦理花蓮縣的那個國土工能分區的審議那2月的時候已經今年2月已經報部然後來送審那今年9月跟新竹市一樣在31次會議的時候已經審議完成那目前花蓮縣政府正在積極辦理那個鄉村地區整理規劃那因為花蓮縣的太八郎部落"},{"start":5652.235,"end":5678.063,"text":"全台示範部落所以我們針對這個105年5月1號如果國土功能分區沒有辦法在4月30號5月1號真實實施的話那將來後續的一些我們的那些那個城鄉鄉村規劃的部分是不是會造成我們的那個分區沒有辦法確定那造成我們將來在做規劃的時候有一些"},{"start":5678.803,"end":5679.804,"text":"請張化縣政府建設處副處長陳明楠陳副處長"},{"start":5713.657,"end":5733.287,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位縣長 大家早安那 彰化縣政府兩點發言第一個就是我們配合明年的國土計畫法上路目前累積的審議的陳情案件有319件那正在積極的安排縣的專案小組審議那預計在年底 年底會將國土功能分區報佈"},{"start":5734.813,"end":5738.938,"text":"第二次初步審查會議．〈國土計畫法修正草案〉第二次初步審查會議．〈國土計畫法修正草案〉第三次初步審查會議．〈國土計畫法修正草案〉"},{"start":5758.591,"end":5782.151,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有議會的各位長官還有先進那屏東縣政府報告屏東縣政府的公共分析3G的部分已經在今年的7月報到部裡面排審了那有關這一次就是大院接受就是一些民眾曾經希望能夠展延延期整個公告實施日期的話那屏東縣是予以尊重那我也會配合修法的結果來辦理以上"},{"start":5785.01,"end":5790.115,"text":"主席、各位委員﹚各位與委的長官、貴賓大家好"},{"start":5804.837,"end":5814.94,"text":"新竹縣代表發言新竹縣政府在10月17日已經經過內政部國審會專案小組會議已經審議合併目前進度上,原則上我們是配合法定規定來做相關的配套"},{"start":5828.684,"end":5829.585,"text":"委員：完整會議"},{"start":5847.637,"end":5847.917,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":5864.255,"end":5864.335,"text":"主席"},{"start":5887.964,"end":5888.865,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":5908.291,"end":5908.932,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":5929.429,"end":5929.789,"text":"主席"},{"start":5951.745,"end":5976.614,"text":"說法是說是為了要保障民眾的權利但是民眾的質疑就是說我既然是在農業發展區域裡面那我蓋農舍是跟農業發展不可分離的一部分那你又限縮說在原來區域計畫法裡面的編定類別才可以蓋那這樣的話那為什麼要廢止區域計畫法那為什麼要推國土計畫法那這個部分是我們比較沒有辦法回答的"},{"start":5978.004,"end":5978.104,"text":"主席"},{"start":5994.847,"end":5995.067,"text":"主席"},{"start":6010.031,"end":6015.533,"text":"新竹縣有科學園區、工業區、零散工業用地這些分區目前的制度是保留擴廠機制目前看到未來國土計畫上線後"},{"start":6031.238,"end":6031.418,"text":"二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6060.267,"end":6073.257,"text":"我做工廠可以享有這個 我不做工廠就會退到變成可能類似只有30到90所以我沒有辦法往前進 也沒有辦法擴展 退沒有利益可圖"},{"start":6074.241,"end":6074.501,"text":"新竹縣委員"},{"start":6092.022,"end":6093.583,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":6122.897,"end":6128.264,"text":"好謝謝周科長接著請臺中縣政府建設處都市計畫科科長陳鼎榮陳科長"},{"start":6144.029,"end":6153.136,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位長官臺東縣政府報告臺東縣政府和國土署共同推動國土計畫那我們在113年10月9號第10次和第11次臺東縣國委會已經將國土三階的課題跟人民陳情全部討論完畢"},{"start":6163.106,"end":6166.27,"text":"那預計在113年11月29號第12次臺東縣國委會會將功能分區圖做全案確認然後就會準備做報佈的作業"},{"start":6178.547,"end":6202.594,"text":"那考量國土計畫事關重大會影響臺東縣的民眾和原住民族權益比較大所以臺東縣是希望中央盡快協助完成相關配套執法比如說國土計畫的土地使用管制規則跟原住民族土地使用管制規則以利本府向民眾第一線做說明以及後續執行遂行以上報告"},{"start":6205.059,"end":6206.28,"text":"休息五分鐘,讓大家用洗手間"},{"start":6222.688,"end":6223.488,"text":"二次初步審查"},{"start":6240.937,"end":6242.078,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6265.566,"end":6267.426,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":6292.133,"end":6294.736,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":6307.78,"end":6309.342,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6331.543,"end":6332.084,"text":"剛剛那個新竹現燈"},{"start":6353.904,"end":6357.948,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":6378.685,"end":6380.547,"text":"二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6390.669,"end":6392.891,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":6418.929,"end":6420.67,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6439.264,"end":6440.045,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6461.822,"end":6462.843,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6481.89,"end":6484.772,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":6502.563,"end":6504.124,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":6531.195,"end":6532.196,"text":"第二次初步審查"},{"start":6549.109,"end":6550.77,"text":"二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6576.916,"end":6578.719,"text":"第二次初步審查"},{"start":6591.715,"end":6592.535,"text":"因為我是覺得說"},{"start":6621.412,"end":6622.113,"text":"第一次初步審查會議"},{"start":6651.175,"end":6652.556,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6681.958,"end":6684.481,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":6703.217,"end":6723.909,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會接著我們請臺北市政府﹐都發局綜合企劃科科長﹐江中信﹐江科長是,主席﹐各位先進,大家早安臺北市由於全市都是都市土地﹐所以在跨社或公共分區上面的作業相對比較單純那臺北﹐"},{"start":6731.531,"end":6756.803,"text":"臺北市的國土計畫法修正草案已在今年的8月15日提請內政部審議也承蒙內政部在很快的排了下個禮拜二我們會跟嘉義市一起做審議如果如今內政部審議通過應該可以配合指定時程來辦理公告作業對於修法的部分本市沒有意見 謝謝"},{"start":6760.065,"end":6763.96,"text":"好,謝謝江科長接下來我們請﹐立法委員﹐楊瓊英,楊委員"},{"start":6775.049,"end":6775.81,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6795.203,"end":6795.724,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":6823.064,"end":6849.337,"text":"整個國家大家團結一致台灣最重要的就是我們的土地這是非常的重要沒有土地就連國家都不成立了所以這個是國家必要的三大元素之一所以我以下要說明的我也敬請行政部門以及議會的各位人士大家一起來參酌我們的目標就是真正的要配套完成能夠好好的來落實"},{"start":6850.157,"end":6850.297,"text":"委員會審查委員會審查"},{"start":6870.993,"end":6891.017,"text":"打明年4月30號要倉促上路完全沒有配套的希望要等行政部門將配套做好我們一起好好的來努力來落實這是我要希望得到我們院會裡頭不分藍綠黨派藍綠白的委員大家一起來支持真正的照顧我們的民眾跟我們的保護我們的土地"},{"start":6894.278,"end":6897.302,"text":"所以我就針對幾項我要特別說明第一項我們在整個國土計畫法裡頭的指向根本沒有完整我們也非常清楚以我臺中市直轄市來講我們有自治條例那你的自治條例不是你中央政府一指令下"},{"start":6913.502,"end":6927.41,"text":"就得以去執行還要經過我臺中市議會的一個審查三讀通過送警市政府辦理所以在我們的自治條例不只臺中市所有22個縣市都必須要這麼做那這個時間點請問內政部相關單位你的時間點是要放在哪裡這個第一個沒有指向根本沒有辦法去落實第二個我特別要說中央部會自己本身"},{"start":6943.138,"end":6943.999,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":6966.172,"end":6992.937,"text":"第三個我要特別說的在農地的方面農一農二特農這一些的條件每一個區塊的形態不依我台中市我們有什麼我們有這個清泉崗機場國際機場我們更有什麼我們更有台中港國際港口我們的地形地物通通都不一樣非常的豐盛比如說我大安區紅湖五九"},{"start":6995.137,"end":6995.517,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7015.895,"end":7017.195,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":7033.94,"end":7045.697,"text":"所以必須要好好地審視之接下來這個是在我們整個分區的定位接下來我還會討論的目前所謂的你的都市計畫你開發的許可你的轉軌機制要怎麼轉"},{"start":7050.023,"end":7050.624,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":7065.1,"end":7091.512,"text":"我們可以跟世界來接軌可以跟世界來競爭在這樣的一個條件之下你的接軌機制要怎麼做呢我在這邊說明一、我們台中目前我們的豐洲工業區的二期那現在它已經在執行審議中如果說到明年的4月30沒有答案的時候那你要回歸於原分區那這個台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":7094.193,"end":7098.196,"text":"那你所有22個縣市你們預計要發展的整個縣市的發展全部受到影響這一個我要勿請中央黨委請你勿必勿必去探討清楚"},{"start":7110.646,"end":7132.913,"text":"比如說一個殯葬業者人家已經給你申請申請你在執行中是你政府的速度還沒審議完畢到了明年4月30如果到你的法通過之後4月30全部回歸委員使用分區這怎麼辦沒有政府這麼沒有誠信的不可以如此的所以我特別來提出這一點接下來我要說的"},{"start":7134.634,"end":7134.894,"text":"接下來我還要跟要說的"},{"start":7158.454,"end":7165.239,"text":"你中央來設一個獎勵金在條文裡頭我記得本期在這個內政委員會跟部長 我也感謝部長當時我說 你說這個獎勵最高上限五百萬捲舉的最高上限五百萬當時我提出的時候 本期提出部長也非常的瞭解我們的民情我說你這樣子會鼓勵大家不要工作"},{"start":7184.353,"end":7185.214,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":7212.056,"end":7212.777,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7223.308,"end":7223.788,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":7247.802,"end":7249.064,"text":"第二次初步審查會議．"},{"start":7264.707,"end":7290.354,"text":"你既然地方政府都沒有資料你怎麼審啊?高雄你怎麼審啊?金融你怎麼審啊?台中你怎麼審啊?你怎麼審?你怎麼審?你完全根本連資料都沒有你怎麼審?不可能的所以這些的配套到時候是中央來審還是地方來審?不知道不知道如果依照目前行政部門所提出的是由地方政府必須要去賦權者是審查"},{"start":7292.455,"end":7292.795,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7306.578,"end":7306.898,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7333.883,"end":7334.644,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7360.746,"end":7361.267,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7375.643,"end":7376.524,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7396.502,"end":7417.442,"text":"所以我們台中有我們的和平當民國一百年我們升格為直轄市的時候我們的本來是鄉鎮公所要選鄉鎮長要選鄉民代表但是剛好本席在擔任書記長的時候有一個原住民的朋友告訴了我一句話我很感動"},{"start":7418.462,"end":7421.385,"text":"我聽到這一句話我真的要流淚一個民主國家國家的資源竟然對接對不上來所以我開始提案直轄市的區長"},{"start":7439.222,"end":7467.117,"text":"還是有選的而且直轄市的區長是由原住民鄉原鄉就區長的身份必須是原住民那既然用選的我們就要有代表會那有代表會就有代表就要產生主席所以我們另外原漢合一也就是代表會的主席不需要是有原住民的身份就可以這個成為代表會主席"},{"start":7467.897,"end":7495.837,"text":"這個是我們整個國家原案合一所以我要請問我們的中央黨委到底到目前為止我們一直在推動的這樣的一個方向那我要請問我們原住民的部落還有原住民的保留地還有原案合一之後原住民的保留地也有一些我們和就是大家進入大家一起合作去發展我們這些的重要文化資產以及我們的土地好好的去保護"},{"start":7496.477,"end":7496.897,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":7520.794,"end":7521.274,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":7549.975,"end":7550.455,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7572.551,"end":7593.735,"text":"誰決定那要怎麼樣去管控你的SOP流程：你的制度到底要怎麼樣所以以上我所做的說明我真的仍舊非常非常的希望依照目前現行的法規裡頭地方政府必須要依照國土計畫使用許可公開展覽與公聽會跟陳述意見的處理辦法那麼跟我們的民眾來溝通再次召開公聽會但是這一些的相關你沒有做"},{"start":7601.897,"end":7628.535,"text":"但是分歧非常的大你不僅讓地方政府無所適從沒有辦法如期的去完成它的土地這個功能的分區的這個劃分到目前為止還有人什麼農一農二特農還沒有辦法定出來因為民眾的抗議聲太大了不是地方政府不做而是民眾的抗議聲太大了所以因此我們現在看到國土計畫法面臨到不少的困難"},{"start":7630.316,"end":7631.317,"text":"第二次初步審查會議．"},{"start":7650.826,"end":7665.244,"text":"內容就是將現行四年內公告國土功能分區圖來期限延長至六年也就是緩衝兩年你相關的配套你趕快去做因為我們最終的目標"},{"start":7665.925,"end":7690.474,"text":"需要執行實現土地資源的合理運用以及我們非常願意的永續發展以上是我的建議雖然這個激動了一點因為我們服務處每一天接到的電話真的是打爆了所以我願意將這一些的資料以及面向提供給與會的人士來做參考拜託請支持延長六年謝謝是四年延長至六年謝謝"},{"start":7700.792,"end":7724.468,"text":"謝謝楊瓊怡委員非常詳細的來做了很多的說明跟提問本席在這裡要請我們的行政單位是不是在行政單位等一下最後統一回應之前能夠先把目前國土計畫法相關的執法你們預計要提出來的執法的這個"},{"start":7726.149,"end":7727.049,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":7754.582,"end":7755.102,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":7782.418,"end":7785.5,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝委員還有議會各位先進,大家好那雲林縣政府的話我們有三項意見那第一個的話就是針對我們的農業權那第二個的話就是針對農業權的話我們希望可以成立我們這個特別的基金那第三個的話是針對我們鄉村地區的整體規劃應該入法"},{"start":7806.195,"end":7808.717,"text":"國土計畫法對於特別犧牲的農民應該給予特別的補償為了保障我們農民的權利尤其雲林縣有50%是農友雲林縣政府其實早在110年我們發布的雲林縣奪土計畫中就已經提出農業權的主張從進城"},{"start":7832.256,"end":7832.436,"text":"二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7847.415,"end":7850.018,"text":"中央對國土計畫法提出 農業權的完整配套措施還是沒有所以我們還是希望中央的話"},{"start":7863.852,"end":7864.112,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":7892.625,"end":7892.945,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":7912.978,"end":7913.038,"text":"主席"},{"start":7928.922,"end":7929.322,"text":"第二次初步審查會議．"},{"start":7958.2,"end":7958.6,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":7978.803,"end":7979.063,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":7998.775,"end":7999.255,"text":"二次初步審查會議"},{"start":8016.783,"end":8017.123,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8039.102,"end":8039.362,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":8055.273,"end":8055.693,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":8078.712,"end":8078.932,"text":"第二次初步審查會議．"},{"start":8098.351,"end":8099.732,"text":"第三個的話就剛剛提到了我們鄉村地區就整體規劃應該明定不管是在國土計畫法或者是相關的這些執法當中應該續明這個法令的未接還有應該辦理的這個內容"},{"start":8114.565,"end":8116.827,"text":"因為其實從一百零九年我們頒布的這個國土計畫法裡面那鄉村地區整體規劃並沒有相關的條文那在一百零八年的時候那個那時候有修訂一個施行細則那其中第六條他有說對於縣轄市直轄市或者是縣市這個空間發展計畫應明載就說直轄市"},{"start":8140.009,"end":8149.152,"text":"先是城鄉空間發展過程及鄉村地區的整體規劃全國國土計畫法也要採明要求我們的直轄市我們的縣市政府應該辦理鄉村地區的整體規劃來改善我們公共空間設施或者是建築土地的不足甚至我們農村環境的破壞等等課題但是這些法規都是要求事項"},{"start":8169.738,"end":8170.479,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整"},{"start":8190.748,"end":8191.889,"text":"非常感謝 謝副縣長親自出席"},{"start":8220.325,"end":8226.056,"text":"那我們接下來請桃園市政府督發局國土計畫科科長湯靜雯湯科長"},{"start":8231.348,"end":8260.686,"text":"主席、各部會長官及相關與會單位大家好桃園市府在這邊要鄭重地表示我們從來沒有反對國土計畫制度的實施桃園市府到現在還沒有交國土功能分區圖是因為我們發現原本110年公告的縣市國土計畫已經不符合現在桃園的發展而新制度的實施是會書和圖一起發生效力的包含去年新竹客管局要推動的龍客廓以及今年9月行政院國客會核定的桃竹苗大紀股"},{"start":8261.346,"end":8282.943,"text":"都不在我們一百一十年桃園市國土計畫流射的產業儲備用地區位我們今年下半年已經啟動了專案通盤檢討：初步的成果已經完成十一月我們將啟動專家學者及各機關的研商會議十二月開始我們會啟動十三區的公聽會待通檢成果完成後：我們會聯同桃園市的第三階段國土功能分區圖：一併報送內政部"},{"start":8285.265,"end":8312.688,"text":"我們現在遇到民眾最擔心的問題是因為現在國土功能分區分類扣除都市計畫土地、海域、國家公園只剩十種的國土功能分區分類而現行區域計畫陸域是十種分區十八種用地現在的國土功能分區分類沒有辦法對接現行區域計畫陸域的十八種邊定每一種功能分區分類中都可能有十八種用地民眾擔憂自己的土地不知道要怎麼使用"},{"start":8313.308,"end":8324.556,"text":"法令政策的不確定跟一再的變動﹐讓我們地方政府﹐下鄉溝通困難﹐雖然內政部不斷強調既有權益的保障﹐但大家可以看看現在最新國土計畫的圖管草案﹐"},{"start":8326.058,"end":8331.663,"text":"在國土計畫：國土保育地區：跟農業發展地區裡面原區域計畫的假建是不可以做停車場的我想就叫大家合理嗎甚至未來政府機關想要新設據點在農業發展地區內也只能找假建一件丙建油漆特務不像現在政府機關有需要還可以辦理開發許可或是小面積的變更編訂"},{"start":8346.698,"end":8347.139,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":8361.997,"end":8362.858,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":8379.033,"end":8394.67,"text":"而這些所有送進來的案件都沒有在我們110年國土限制國土計畫的未來發展地區一個新制度的推動卻沒有辦法阻止舊日兔的爆量案件這真的是我們想要的嗎最後我想跟大家說我們可不可以不要只是討論要不要延期"},{"start":8396.332,"end":8397.232,"text":"好 謝謝湯科長接下來請連江縣政府秘書長 張榮德 張秘書長"},{"start":8428.008,"end":8452.526,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會貴賓因為連江縣是全國土地面積最小那我們因為島嶼的脆弱性高所以我們很多在幾十年前我們就已經公告全縣都是都市計畫區而沒有非都的問題所以我們在國土分區圖我們很早應該是全國第一個送內政部審議而且去年9月25號已經通過了那對於這一次的修法我們也沒有意見 謝謝"},{"start":8455.162,"end":8456.288,"text":"好,謝謝張秘書長接下來請徐宇貞委員發言"},{"start":8468.441,"end":8486.313,"text":"謝謝主席我想剛剛聽完我們各縣市的這個代表來發表的有關國土計畫法目前的這個進度跟看法那我們可以聽到就是說其實還有很多的大家共同的一些問題跟一些相關的執法"},{"start":8486.693,"end":8486.893,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8507.819,"end":8524.702,"text":"我相信大家也都很希望能夠好好的來推動國土計畫法但是因為在國土計畫法現有的這個限制之下未來這些農地沒有辦法隨意的變更損害農民的權益甚至當然也影響到直轄市縣市的未來的發展"},{"start":8525.683,"end":8554.221,"text":"所以從全國的公平負擔的觀點來看國土計畫法制定時有所疏漏關於農業權的這個概念的保障農民農地農用特別犧牲的補償還有鄉村地區整體規劃的作業規範跟相關的執法序名跟它的法令未接以及相關的配套措施其實都還沒有完善所以到現在為止我相信各縣市政府也都收到很多民眾的這個陳情"},{"start":8555.422,"end":8582.827,"text":"大家都還有很多的疑慮跟反對的聲音所以國土計畫法即將在明年要正式上路但是到目前為止大概還有八個縣市沒有辦法提報功能分區圖其實之所以無法提報跟中央政府現在還沒能制定完整的配套措施以及民眾對於國土分區的權益都還有疑問所以這些縣市政府才不敢貿然的提報"},{"start":8583.647,"end":8584.749,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":8601.63,"end":8601.91,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8617.845,"end":8618.385,"text":"二次初步審查會議"},{"start":8639.631,"end":8640.291,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":8653.626,"end":8653.906,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8675.262,"end":8684.814,"text":"農業不需配合的這個修正的執法目前還沒全部完成那補償的機制也還沒有下文所以目前全國有99%的農會也反對國土計畫法倉促上路"},{"start":8690.08,"end":8690.32,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":8707.808,"end":8734.785,"text":"特別的犧牲應該要有特別的補償但是目前為止還沒有看到相關的配套錯法跟補償的措施所以農民對於即將上路的國土計畫法都感到憂慮因此本席在國土計畫法第45條的這個修正案有提案要求希望能夠施行的日期能夠展延兩年讓中央政府可以利用這兩年的時間制定完整的配套措施"},{"start":8735.245,"end":8736.506,"text":"謝謝徐宜貞委員接著我們請宜蘭縣政府建設處處長潘亮宇潘處長"},{"start":8770.829,"end":8798.672,"text":"主席各位與會先進大家好今天針對國土計畫法修正草案我們宜蘭縣政府有兩點意見第一個針對我們中央機關國土功能分區的這個劃設的標準那我們希望要有一致性跟公平性因為這個劃設標準在110年其實就已經提出來所以我們宜蘭縣政府針對農一農二的劃設標準我們都是依照中央的標準來做劃設的"},{"start":8799.733,"end":8800.814,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":8820.891,"end":8821.711,"text":"二次初步審查會議"},{"start":8841.16,"end":8857.306,"text":"民眾跟議員也跟我們反映目前能夠調整的時機就是五年的通盤檢討但是大家也知道目前現在都市計畫的通盤檢討三到五年就要檢討一次但是其實通盤檢討的時間都花費非常長的一個時間"},{"start":8861.087,"end":8861.387,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8885.967,"end":8886.928,"text":"首先我們請國土署吳署長"},{"start":8918.307,"end":8945.457,"text":"感謝趙吉仁還有各縣市政府我們的工作夥伴其實我們各縣市的同仁其實在陪著國土署在過去這六年其實都大家一起在努力那也一起在協調這一些相關的事務所以我們才能走到目前有14個縣市政府都已經有提交那我們也在審查當中那"},{"start":8946.357,"end":8947.438,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":8965.831,"end":8967.772,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":8985.405,"end":9012.131,"text":"所以在土地使用管制的部分都有做一些彈性的調整那也跟單位來報告就是說我們在目前23項執法裡面目前已經都有完成的有15項那在不法規會審訊的也有6項那現在有部會協商的還有3項我們預計在今年年底之前全部都可以來發布但是在這過程當中"},{"start":9014.83,"end":9037.127,"text":"各縣政府其實都有提供一些修正的一些建議所以就這個部分那我們在這個過程當中都有參採大家的建議做一些修正那第二個呢在中央部會的部分我們跟農業部跟園民會其實都保持非常順暢的溝通那至於所謂在過去的國土計畫的部門跟地政部門的"},{"start":9038.027,"end":9038.888,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":9057.436,"end":9058.136,"text":"第二次初步審查"},{"start":9083.123,"end":9106.608,"text":"全縣 因為國土計畫在地方政府也是屬於縣市政府而不是單一的局處那所以這個部分呢 員長是尊重縣市政府在這個內部的全責分工的一個部分那在這個非都市土地的使用的一個轉軌其實我想我們都有找各縣市政府都有開過會因為各縣市政府的受理期"},{"start":9107.248,"end":9108.509,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":9134.434,"end":9144.851,"text":"如果在明年4月30號：國土法實施之後：該與國土工農分區的時候：如果你已取得開發許可的案件：那當然"},{"start":9146.038,"end":9146.058,"text":"衆議院議員"},{"start":9174.625,"end":9190.37,"text":"大家在會比較多的這一個部分就是說會有另外一個比較尷尬的部分就是說就過去在地方政府也有提出新辦事業已經核准使用地尚未變更還稍微完成變更那經過申請人提出應經申請"},{"start":9191.65,"end":9216.158,"text":"同意或準的話還是依照原有的計畫內容在使用所以這一點是變成說你不需要一定最後要走完國土計畫的程序但是你原有已經新辦事業計畫核准的項目的部分還是可以繼續沿用所以這一點都是盡可能在過程當中協助大家在轉軌的部分減少這樣的疑慮那也讓申請人在這過程當中能夠有充分獲得保障"},{"start":9216.778,"end":9231.643,"text":"但是我們也理解在過去的做法當中有些縣市政府因為受理了比較大型的案件或是本來條件比較特殊可能很難以成就的這些案件都有可能在這過程當中還是持續的在提"},{"start":9232.463,"end":9249.377,"text":"那這些其實也相對應證一下他在趨跡的時代本來就可能不會過的他當然還是希望提出來但是相對有一些環境敏感條件或是在需求上並未達成這樣的條件的部分呢我想不管他在趨跡的時代在國土計畫的時代"},{"start":9251.158,"end":9251.318,"text":"委員：完整"},{"start":9268.695,"end":9269.035,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":9296.551,"end":9319.516,"text":"有比較情節重大未依許可來進行使用或是符合國土功能區分類而且屬應經申請使用但是沒有申請甚至是屬於完全沒有申請就進行破壞的大規模的開發或是大型的土地破壞農地破壞或污染的事件的時候就會提高罰款"},{"start":9320.996,"end":9321.877,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":9343.619,"end":9370.311,"text":"其實本來在海洋資源的部分都各自有各自的法規這一點我們只是重新做一個統整那其實在地方政府它也本身對於海洋資源包含野保法的部分都有一些相關自己的法規這部分我們一樣沒有動因為國土審查的機關它本身是一個匯總做最後查核的一個機關並不是屬於最後把所有權限一把抓的一個機關所以這個部分"},{"start":9370.951,"end":9371.111,"text":"主席"},{"start":9387.14,"end":9387.16,"text":"衆議院議員"},{"start":9403.267,"end":9428.583,"text":"這幾年的一個產業變化需求特別大但是所以我們是鼓勵他競速我們把第一版完成以後我們同時開始受理他的通盤檢討的一個這樣的一個申請那也加速在這個產業用地上面的一個整合我想這都可以給各縣市做一個很好的一個參考其實我們對於通盤檢討這件事情我們確實是保持非常開放而且鼓勵的一個做法希望能夠讓這個通盤檢討的作業那能夠來加速進行"},{"start":9432.825,"end":9461.135,"text":"那這部分我們會再來努力因為是110年縣市版的國土計畫就已經發布實施所以115年造法規約115年他這就可以再提出但是115年以前他是可以準備通盤檢討作業的包含進行相關的規劃跟意見的收集他是都可以進行的所以這個部分呢如果縣市政府有覺得有通盤檢討因應產業的一個變化有通盤檢討的需要這個部分呢我們一樣會來"},{"start":9462.815,"end":9463.915,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":9482.185,"end":9500.777,"text":"如果未來還有一些行政制度或是整合的方式有需要我們再來協助的話我想我們會再來做一個充分的溝通跟努力至於有關農民跟原住民的部分我想待會我們就請兩位部會的長官再來做這樣的一個補充以上報告"},{"start":9511.462,"end":9511.482,"text":"謝謝吳署長"},{"start":9527.833,"end":9557.139,"text":"好 那但是在原民會跟農業部回應之前你們兩個單位的那個相關執法的部分你們有準備嗎因為內政部的好像在報告裡面就有列所以剛剛有疑慮的我們可以參照可以參考一下如果還有疑慮等一下第二輪發言你們可以把你們的疑慮再提出來那我不知道這個原民會跟農業部如果有那有印好了嗎"},{"start":9559.036,"end":9560.377,"text":"謝謝各位委員跟先進的指導針對今天"},{"start":9585.763,"end":9607.135,"text":"楊瓊瑛委員、新竹縣、南投縣、臺中市、臺東縣代表有提到原住民土地使用的問題這裡做一個說明剛剛主席也特別強調執法的部分在國土計畫法23條是有明定要原民會跟內政部會選來發布原住民土地使用的規則"},{"start":9608.716,"end":9637.976,"text":"目前這個進度,我們預計是在12月底以前會跟內政部來彙弦公告就是預告這個法令的內容讓我們的全國民眾、原住民族來參考、來審視會提供相關的意見那如果這個法制作業完成以後接下來我們是會按照我們既定的期程一定要在明年的4月30號以前會彙弦內政部來公布、來實施"},{"start":9638.736,"end":9664.259,"text":"所以在法案的部分 事實上目前都按照進度來進行那很多的有爭議的部分 事實上也都跟內政部 國土署有達成相關的這個共識第二個部分是有提到這個原住民族土地適用的範圍 它不是很明確我想這邊要說明說部落及其周邊範圍那大家一直講說這個公有土地 那它不太明確那實際上在原基法裡面的"},{"start":9665.26,"end":9688.897,"text":"對於原住民族土地的定義是原住民的傳統領域土地跟原住民保留地那原住民保留地有非常明確地級的介質那傳統領域土地事實上在原民會從民國九十一年就開始做調查那有相關的圖資在我們的網站就是這官網有特別的去做公告其實這個剛剛有提到那些什麼部落範圍"},{"start":9690.678,"end":9715.744,"text":"周遭的一定範圍內之公有土地其實它都在原住民族土地的範圍以內所以這個範圍的這個界定事實上在相關的土地跟會裡面所做的一些調查事實上都有所以這個範圍是不會說是不明確一定是可以如果有需要的話也可以我們也可以提供給各個縣市政府來參考這個範圍到底到哪個界值大概到哪裡"},{"start":9716.929,"end":9733.042,"text":"另外就是提到原住民保護地很多都劃進去國保一跟國保二的問題我想這個部分可能我們跟內政部國土署在針對國土使用的規則草案裡面針對這個部分都有做處理"},{"start":9734.479,"end":9749.511,"text":"新竹又提到泰雅族散居的問題其實這些都已經在我們在去年底到一直到今年都不斷的在做協調那在這個我們的使用管制的這個草案裡面事實上都有做處理就是"},{"start":9749.991,"end":9750.492,"text":"《國土計畫法修正草案》"},{"start":9771.227,"end":9789.272,"text":"另外就是針對非原住民在原住民的土地範圍內也有一些使用的問題我想會裡面近期也會提出一個原住民保留地管理條例目前也在進行法制的作業我們是希望說"},{"start":9790.092,"end":9790.953,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":9809.076,"end":9832.24,"text":"那地用的問題事實上只要是合法的成豬使用原住民保育地其實他的權益是不會被剝奪的那我想這是國土計畫法很大的一個主要的這個宗旨就是既有權力的保障是不會去被限制的所以一樣在原保地上非原住民使用的土地的部分只要是合法的權益我們都會保障"},{"start":9832.66,"end":9847.168,"text":"那它土地利用上﹐它會回歸到我們這個﹐通案的這個﹐土地使用規範﹐就是國土所定的規範﹐裡面去處理當然原民會也會﹐針對原保地的部分﹐給予適當的協助最後還是要強調是說﹐可能在很多的訊息上"},{"start":9848.288,"end":9868.141,"text":"因為原民會在這個當中已經做了很多的這個說明會跟相關部會的這個討論還有我們這個地方政府的這些研商會議我們已經開了非常多的這樣的場次我上一次有報告說光是這個部落的說明已經應該是將近1500場那其他的什麼教育訓練啊專家學者的討論的"},{"start":9869.322,"end":9871.023,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":9885.891,"end":9907.643,"text":"所以有時候你們在講的問題事實上我們之前都已經有去處理也去協調那事實上在很多的配套措施上面有做了一些一些跟國土署有做達成一些協議也謝謝內政部的支持那我希望說這個使用管制的這個草案能夠依照我們剛剛所訂的那樣的期程來進行來完成以上報告"},{"start":9911.876,"end":9926.993,"text":"謝謝副主委但是您的回應有一點本席蠻疑惑的您說都溝通了但是他們還是不知道那這是有溝沒有通不是 是因為我們在溝通的那個系統都是地方的原住民的單位"},{"start":9927.433,"end":9935.301,"text":"原民處或是原民相關單位還是有意見上來才會代為反映我們再持續請原民單位跟他們反映已經有一些草案條件很明確了那些餘曆事實上當時都有處理我們會請他們再持續溝通"},{"start":9950.896,"end":9965.041,"text":"所以應該很大的問題就是我們中央的很多的情況已經有做或已經有什麼可是地方不清楚這個部分是不是可以再加強溝通謝謝主席的指導好謝謝好那我們接著請農業部長那那個要列印給大家的是不是已經發下來了"},{"start":9977.148,"end":10001.136,"text":"我想針對那個法條的部分因為法條的內容我們剛好正在行政院審議不用內容那我這邊先說明一下就是說我們現在農業部因應國土計畫法他必須要修正的大概有六個條例第一個就是農發條例的部分那農發條例最重要的就是他會針對你要說的這六個有沒有書面"},{"start":10004.09,"end":10028.777,"text":"包括名稱,包括目前的進度,有沒有?有,有...沒關係,如果現在沒有,三天內好不好,送來這個內政委員會我順便回應,就是剛才那個也非常謝謝我們的委員還有我們各地方政府的一些建議跟疑慮那我在這邊做一併的一個說明那首先針對剛才有提到就是說,到底"},{"start":10030.107,"end":10056.435,"text":"農業部門針對國土計畫它要配套修的這些執法那執法裡面有六條那其中最重要的一條就是農發條例那其他的包括森林法包括水保法包括山坡地保育法跟漁港法還有農產品市場交易法都是配合區域計畫法不適用以後的一個修正相對單純那農發條例最重要就是"},{"start":10057.415,"end":10058.075,"text":"《國土計畫法修正草案》"},{"start":10075.983,"end":10100.472,"text":"以前的地幕不見了,所以農民會有一些擔心所以我們在農發條例裡面會重新去界定農地的範圍、耕地的範圍相貴的就是說,你如果說農地非農業使用的時候回饋金的繳交還有一些非農業使用你原來在從事的時候你還是享有一些賦稅的優惠那這個部分我們都會去保障"},{"start":10101.152,"end":10113.648,"text":"都會援引原來的區議計畫法的部分所以這個部分我想請大家都放心那我們這個法已經送到行政院了能夠盡快的經過審議以後會送到立法院來那第二個部分就是"},{"start":10115.384,"end":10115.544,"text":"國土政務委員"},{"start":10132.228,"end":10157.294,"text":"因為地方的發展開始在做這個區域之間的移動的時候那移動的時候在農業發展區是不是可能會變少那這個部分會不會有總量管制的範圍我在這邊跟各位報告其實我們就農業部門來講我們針對糧食安全所必需的這些農地大概74到81萬公頃那這個部分是有一個範圍的"},{"start":10158.374,"end":10187.404,"text":"然後這個部分也是針對糧食安全必要的部分那相對的我們的農地的本身的這些相關的還有一些剝地的果樹的部分都並沒有納到74到81的部分所以它有一定的彈性總量的部分然後地方政府其實你現在在畫農一到農五的時候你們累計出來的也有一個總量的概念在那邊有一個總量的概念在那邊那未來在調整的時候我想"},{"start":10187.824,"end":10188.144,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":10213.911,"end":10236.036,"text":"一旦劃入農一到農五就一輩子都不能動它還是有它的彈性是可以調整的部分那我們還是會透過總量大概74到81這個範圍之內然後各縣市在做一些未來因應重大的建設計畫去做產業園區或其他園區也好去做調整所以這個部分我們會這樣的一個處理"},{"start":10238.336,"end":10261.672,"text":"相對的就是剛剛還有提到農舍也是大家非常關心的農舍的部分我在這邊很明確的跟各位說明農舍的興建一定是從事農業使用那現在目前農業使用所界定的就是在農業發展區然後同樣的農舍有他農舍的興建辦法去做規範他不會因為國土計畫而改變"},{"start":10262.612,"end":10262.752,"text":"主席"},{"start":10279.212,"end":10299.941,"text":"因為農舍的部分在國土計畫的從事農業的那個地幕不見了所以這個部分未來在農業發展區裡面的農地的範圍耕地的範圍他一旦界定了以後我相信農民這邊就會比較清楚了也比較知道說後續的一個該怎麼做那第三個部分是"},{"start":10301.121,"end":10304.124,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案 國土計畫法修正草案 國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10318.359,"end":10333.761,"text":"國保二畫的比較多,農山畫的比較少其實在那個時間點,農業部其實已經主動的跟內政部協調把原來縣市政府畫在國保二的部分可以畫在農山的部分,我們就把它移出來"},{"start":10334.902,"end":10360.159,"text":"所以我們已經有做這個動作了那相對的這個部分如果說在國保二還有縣市還有一些覺得說他可以調動農產的部分我想我們一定會跟縣市政府來討論一下看是什麼樣的方式是最好的這個是我想我們持續在做的部分然後同樣的很多縣市政府也提到就是說因為國保區裡面有原來的農牧用地"},{"start":10360.916,"end":10361.716,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10385.725,"end":10386.946,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10405.818,"end":10431.17,"text":"這個部分我想整個農業資源是有限的以現在目前農業部來講我們的農業資源都是主要是投入在農業的發展區但是我們也不會說針對現在在國保區或者是在城鄉發展區原來的農牧用地持續做農業的使用的這些農民我們也不會說以後就不管他我們還是會從事持續的一個輔導"},{"start":10432.45,"end":10433.131,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10460.245,"end":10461.086,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":10480.56,"end":10480.961,"text":"二次初步審查"},{"start":10503.22,"end":10503.881,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":10520.355,"end":10547.149,"text":"目前有些縣市有做一些調整有些縣市好像沒有就是針對中央的指引直接畫上去了我在這邊再次強調農醫跟農二本身畫設除了中央指引以外它可以依據地方政府對於整個用地的這些發展的規劃還有它的地形地貌去做一些調整我舉個例子你如果純粹靠中央的指引的時候農醫有一個部分它可能是紅頭水貝"},{"start":10548.85,"end":10573.927,"text":"紅毫GPS可能對於耕作可能不是那麼好對於農醫的時候那相關的它可能可以化為農惡那這個部分我們都會尊重所以未來農醫跟農惡大家不要太過於拘謹在唯一的一個畫色指引因為我還是強調它只是一個畫色的原則跟指引而已它不是一個一致性的統一絕對的標準"},{"start":10575.887,"end":10590.554,"text":"如果是絕對標準的話,地方政府就別畫畫了我們在圖裡面畫完就結束了所以也請各個地方政府根據你們地方的發展去做適度的這些調整那在調整的過程中,農業部願意來跟地方政府來協助來討論怎麼樣畫設是比較好"},{"start":10593.675,"end":10621.356,"text":"那未來在農一農二唯一的一個差異就是我後續的政府資源的投入會有一些差別因為農一本身它的集中度會比較高那集中度會比較高的時候我們的很多農水路的設施會比較優先去做處理那相對的農二的部分它比較沒有那麼集中的時候它還是會去處理但是它的優先次序會有一些差異性但是對農民來講"},{"start":10623.237,"end":10624.498,"text":"第二次初步審查"},{"start":10650.342,"end":10665.055,"text":"我也可能要花一點點的時間去談農業權的問題我想農業權本身它是一個概念式的名詞農業權的本身在不同的國家可能它的概念是不太一樣的"},{"start":10666.937,"end":10666.997,"text":"主席"},{"start":10684.619,"end":10684.719,"text":"《國土計畫法》"},{"start":10704.732,"end":10729.544,"text":"會去抗議要你搬遷但是他們的農業權就基本上他准許農業在這裡做的時候避免了對於其他周遭土地的一個抗爭的一個行為這是在美國通用的農業權是處理農地跟周遭土地用地有紛爭的時候一個處理那第二個觀念就是農地本身的土地的開發權"},{"start":10732.245,"end":10755.315,"text":"開發權就誠如剛才委員還有我們縣市政府有提到的所謂的土地他是一個私人財產但是我想要跟各位提到的就是其實全台灣的土地的一個開發他是隨著經濟發展而慢慢的形成相關的聚落以我小時候在台北市其實台北市一大部分都是農地"},{"start":10756.235,"end":10780.84,"text":"但是因為你的經濟的開發慢慢的成為一個都會區慢慢的逐步的一個形成所以臺灣各地從南到北也絕對不是說臺北市北部地區又一定是都會區南部地區就一定是鄉村區或是農業區它會隨著人口的聚集隨著土地的經濟的發展而調整所以相對的私人財沒有錯土地是一個私人財產"},{"start":10781.98,"end":10809.009,"text":"但是全世界沒有一個國家包括我們國內不是說私人財產的時候你想要做什麼就做什麼你這塊地你想要蓋房子百分之百蓋房子你就可以蓋房子你想要做什麼都沒有我們還是有一定的法律的規範當你要去蓋房子的時候你可能有相關的容積率的限制當你要蓋農舍的時候我們有農舍的規範那個部分就是要確保整個的一個土地的最大的利用價值以農業部來講"},{"start":10810.569,"end":10826.968,"text":"就農地來講我們關心的是當你去守護這片農地當你用這片農地做經營的時候那我們用什麼樣的方式去支持這是第三種農業權的概念那相關的我想各位都知道"},{"start":10827.609,"end":10827.989,"text":"一種是是"},{"start":10854.051,"end":10855.273,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":10871.584,"end":10873.286,"text":"第三種是所謂的土地的開發權"},{"start":10890.964,"end":10892.004,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":10919.196,"end":10943.221,"text":"國土計畫各件事不管有的交了有的沒交有的審完了有的沒審完了農業部都願意來跟地方政府去做一些討論跟一些協助特別是你們有疑慮的部分有一些是可能法規命令不是那麼了解那有一部分是因為執法我們還沒有公佈可能造成大家疑慮那這個部分我想我們很抱歉我們會盡快的"},{"start":10945.708,"end":10946.288,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":10964.346,"end":10992.64,"text":"以現在的農地的管制跟未來國土計畫的管制對農業的使用來講是一模一樣的不會有任何的改變絕對不會有任何的改變那這個部分我想也請各位放心我想我們大家都是有一次的目標希望我們重新國土規劃以後能夠讓我們的農業永續經營能夠讓我們的農地的資源能夠被確保這是我想我們非常重要的一個想法謝謝各位"},{"start":10993.679,"end":11019.551,"text":"部長請留步一下您的回應裡面特別您剛農業權講了很多就本席這樣聽公聽會到今天各縣市政府的回應我們發現大家的農業權的概念大概就是您講的第三項有關對農民的補償因為我想我們有很大一部分是糧食安全"},{"start":11020.331,"end":11039.486,"text":"糧食安全是國家要一起來承擔的,不是丟給農民現在在整個國土計畫法上路之後,農民有很多的擔憂跟疑慮這個部分好像有關相關的配套補償,我們還是沒有聽到您的回應"},{"start":11040.734,"end":11060.008,"text":"我跟召委報告其實就農業部來講我們關注的是你用這片農地去從事農業的經營然後我們做資源的投入那剛才有不同包括委員包括一些縣市在提到的他是屬於土地的開發權"},{"start":11061.771,"end":11085.69,"text":"土地的開發權我剛才提到的就是土地的開發權 農業部門是沒辦法去處理的除了土地的開發權跟農業部有關的是他們覺得你照這樣現行國土計畫法這樣劃設下去之後對農民有沒有更多的補償的措施因為我們這樣多次聽下來應該你們沒有聽到還是你們也正在研議"},{"start":11086.511,"end":11094.883,"text":"我剛才特別提到的就是其實我們農業的資源的設計跟規劃還有最後的投入他不會因為國土計畫"},{"start":11097.356,"end":11125.281,"text":"的實施與否而改變這是我們一貫的政策所以換句話說農業資源的投入包括我們的給付跟補那個獎勵的措施它跟國土計畫不是對家關係不是說我一定要做什麼樣的設計以後國土計畫才能做因為我剛才說的現在的農業的土地的管制跟未來國土計畫土地管制對農業的經營來講是完全沒有影響的那我們只會有更多的"},{"start":11126.491,"end":11134.866,"text":"為了確保我們這邊土地的永續經營所以我們在所謂的對立式給付裡面我們強化了非常多的生態給付"},{"start":11135.936,"end":11163.292,"text":"那特別是過去在國保區裡面他沒有所謂的生態給付因為過去的生態給付可能都是針對保育類的動物而已那我們很多生態給付包括友善的一個環境的耕作模式包括你的節水的模式然後不會影響周遭的生態環境的給付所以未來在國保區反而會有機會拿到比較多的生態給付所以我們用不同的給付的概念"},{"start":11163.792,"end":11171.148,"text":"我還是強調我們的給付概念是一個獎勵就是我鼓勵你做這樣的農業的行為而給你獎勵而不是一個補償"},{"start":11173.233,"end":11198.24,"text":"部長,是不是北中南區﹐我們很多的農民﹐他們仍然有的疑慮﹐我們還是持續的溝通﹐把這些疑慮﹐想辦法來化解,好不好?這個沒問題他們的需求﹐還是他們的需求﹐您詳細去了解,好不好?了解﹐我跟你們稍微報告﹐就是我們的﹐我在一開始報告也講了﹐我們的對雷氏脊腑﹐它可能是一個簡單的名詞而已﹐但裡面有一些內涵﹐這個內涵在內部﹐我們已經規劃好了﹐"},{"start":11200.981,"end":11201.121,"text":"主席"},{"start":11220.976,"end":11222.457,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":11244.392,"end":11259.565,"text":"好 所以可見堆疊式擠附這個﹐大多數的農民還是不清楚﹐或是地方政府其實農民大部分都知道啦他們都很清楚了嗎大部分都知道只是我們的支持性的﹐包括我剛才說的﹐我們有金融性的﹐金融的支持﹐這個金融支持我們還會優化"},{"start":11260.566,"end":11260.726,"text":"設置設備補助支持"},{"start":11276.794,"end":11300.991,"text":"大多數的農民都能夠知道我們會努力部長還有我們農業部加油辛苦了我們請農業部三天內將相關配套修訂執法的名稱以及預定的進度能夠行文給內政委員會的所有委員還有複支內政委員會接著我們請經濟部來回應"},{"start":11310.236,"end":11330.653,"text":"主席 各位委員 先進 大家好經濟部代表說明為配合國內我們這次土地使用管制大幅度的調整本部除了我們全面來盤點跟評估產用地需求之外其實我們也持續在跟國土部門在做延伸溝通以降低整個產業部門因為制度轉換而所受到的影響"},{"start":11332.095,"end":11341.291,"text":"本部已經盤點了需要配合修正的法律條文目前都在研修中預計在年底前可以送到行政院"},{"start":11348.901,"end":11363.607,"text":"那你們那個法﹖是不是經濟部也是相關的法條﹖還有異地進度﹖也可以﹖能夠行文﹖給我們內政委員會﹖的委員﹖還有副本﹖給內政委員會﹖好 謝謝好"},{"start":11366.365,"end":11384.431,"text":"最後請內政部 劉部長來做最後的整體會議謝謝各位委員還有感謝地方政府派代表來出席今天由內政委員會所召集的會議我要非常謝謝我跟縣市地方代表"},{"start":11385.111,"end":11385.451,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":11406.981,"end":11410.443,"text":"現在是第三階段的國土計畫的功能分區圖現在已經完成到爆破的部分有三分之二個縣市那有另外三分之一的縣市確實會有一些困擾"},{"start":11431.374,"end":11431.894,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":11458.097,"end":11458.397,"text":"國土計畫法修正草案"},{"start":11475.979,"end":11493.291,"text":"十三年上個月底的時候已經完成十五項那另外的這個八項的部分呢剛剛我在報告的時候有跟大院的委員說在今年年底之前一定會完成發布那這個部分呢請這個召委可以放心那同時呢各個部會啊"},{"start":11494.011,"end":11512.265,"text":"包括內政部、交通部、教育部、環境部、通傳會、財政部、經濟部、農業部﹐他們的法律名稱的修正都已經完成有關於農業部所提到的六部要修法的部分﹐其他的四個部﹐漁港法、農產品、市場交易法、水土保持法跟山坡地保育利用條例﹐"},{"start":11512.765,"end":11537.504,"text":"早就已經完成這個抱怨沒有問題但剛剛陳部長有特別提到農業發展條例跟森林法由行政院在審查當中其實我們所了解其實進度也是相當的快部長也跟各位委員回應有關於農業權的這個部分我們也會再協調溝通有必須要我們再去幫忙說明土地開發或者是土地利用的部分"},{"start":11538.024,"end":11538.084,"text":"《國土計畫法》"},{"start":11554.818,"end":11554.858,"text":"《國土計畫法》"},{"start":11578.874,"end":11579.094,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":11603.482,"end":11604.062,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整"},{"start":11633.229,"end":11633.349,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":11658.36,"end":11678.934,"text":"好,謝謝劉部長接下來真的要辛苦您跨部會協調還有我們中央跟地方能夠有更多的溝通跟協調解決疑慮是非常重要的接著我們想請問各直轄市及縣市政府代表有沒有要第二輪發言的有沒有有沒有"},{"start":11685.714,"end":11686.315,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":11700.12,"end":11706.921,"text":"第二次初步審查會議．〈國土計畫法修正草案〉第一次初步審查會議．〈國土計畫法修正草案〉"},{"start":11725.607,"end":11734.867,"text":"沒有異議通過再次感謝各位的參與今天中午有準備便當謝謝大家今天的會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"156600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0541a59d75f44f0d766be9b0bd4ecc214d5df3ad428b0eec556b919a22b82dabb035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:19:14 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這件事情這是第一個"},{"start":292.947,"end":318.001,"text":"第2個我想請教因為這幾天我們看到印度次長級的官員其實也來到台灣來談關於MOU移工引進的MOU的問題部長我想你應該也認識我們其實在過去在台印關係的處理上面有一位陳慕明老師陳慕明老師在"},{"start":321.058,"end":350.037,"text":"今年6月的時候他寫了一篇投書我念一下這篇投書的內容他是這樣寫的他說印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益直接接洽台灣的各政府部門甚至直接談判由於台灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制這就給印度政府各個擊破的機會"},{"start":351.799,"end":369.03,"text":"他的意思很簡單是當印度政府他們很靈活的來跟台灣的各個部會自行來做溝通談判的時候他認為外交部在這裡面統籌掌握籌碼的空間就降低了所以也許我們可以來利用"},{"start":370.657,"end":371.558,"text":"同意,我跟委員也報告,確實啊"},{"start":396.755,"end":424.171,"text":"因為很多國家的外交部會是負責其實包括對外的經貿的談判可是臺灣的情形因為過去比較外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯那我們現在進來在行政院成立的經濟外交工作小組我們會加強這方面跨部會的這個協調那特別是通報制度所以行政院也已經通函各部會"},{"start":425.091,"end":448.354,"text":"未來一些就是說外國駐台的這個代表或者是大使這個所有跟我們的交涉是要通報就是包括外交部在內通報制度的建立是第一個我們才掌握資訊第二個不要被各個擊破甚至有一些地方我們發現陳木曉是提醒的事情有些地方"},{"start":449.321,"end":471.578,"text":"甚至他們透過一些企業來繞過我們政府的部門這個就是我們也要跟產業界來溝通因為如果沒有政府做後盾或最後像這些不管是立法或相關的行政的配合這個是我們總和外交的一部分"},{"start":474.194,"end":498.352,"text":"我不要指特定國家我們慢慢要把經濟外交的機制檢討除了在行政面城市跨部會的小組之外我們外交部我們會跟各部會來協作通報制度的建立之外未來的對外的涉外事務比如說我們有外管也有很多的部會有派人我們也需要做一個總和外交的團隊"},{"start":498.852,"end":514.883,"text":"部長,因為我時間有限,我覺得可以相信部長有改善這件事情的誠意,可是還是想要在外交委員會來表達我們對這件事情的關切。也希望外交部接下來對於重整或者是統籌,我們各部會相關"},{"start":515.843,"end":544.366,"text":"他的談判或者是溝通協調甚至各種利益上面的討論都可以強化我們的這個掌控的狀況我這部分還是要跟部長說最後一個我想問部長部長你知道其實我們有這個所謂南向政策裡面其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少但是其實在印度的內部其實台灣還有一群我覺得蠻重要的盟友他們和台灣一樣其實信奉自由民主的價值也很了解印度"},{"start":545.387,"end":564.746,"text":"那也有助於增進臺灣跟印度的關係,部長你知道這群盟友會是誰?就是包括藏人,我想他們是很重要的。部長,我們在跟這個印度的交流裡面,其實我自己認為有一個非常非常重要的一群,就是達爾喇嘛帶領這個流亡藏人的社群。"},{"start":566.828,"end":591.285,"text":"這是社群他們在某個部分他們跟中國之間他們在在我不能講對抗但是他們也是在面對中國的各種的入侵跟侵害這部分其實跟台灣的利益是一樣的都在抵禦中國的侵擾那在他們一樣在扎根在印度扎根了65年所以他們對印度非常的熟悉包括印度的制度語言文化他們非常非常熟悉我只是想問部長部長你覺得"},{"start":593.166,"end":621.997,"text":"可不可以將這一群印度的流亡藏人的社群納入臺灣的南向政策裡面的重要的夥伴你覺得我同意委員應該是要把它納入那尤其是在台印關係當中這個藏人他們可以作為一個很好的橋樑那隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加我們也很需要人才部長如果你在這邊說這些藏人的社群其實是臺灣在臺印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴的話"},{"start":622.857,"end":643.454,"text":"我覺得我們就要面對一件事情其實坦白說現在台灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人其實相對不友善的地方他們可能想要來台灣交流或者來台灣求學來台灣學中文目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙"},{"start":645.236,"end":663.959,"text":"我的意思是很簡單因為我們過去面對這些藏人社群我們都把他們當作你們就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人我們之前一直會這樣認定但如果今天如部長說的我們把它視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話"},{"start":664.84,"end":669.921,"text":"部長,你覺得我們有沒有可能在這個方向來,朝向真的把他們當作是台灣在台印"},{"start":684.105,"end":688.368,"text":"在政策方向上我是支持委員剛剛的主張在具體做法我就請我們包括外交部跟跨部會我們來進行一些檢討那最近也因為我去政策的定位"},{"start":706.801,"end":707.142,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":723.903,"end":727.324,"text":"部長,我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴不是只是一般的無國籍的人"},{"start":742.645,"end":769.522,"text":"這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情在這個認定跟認知上面我們才有可以再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間所以我非常非常支持剛才部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴那我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部甚至這個來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們權益上面可以做更多真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴部長應該同意吧"},{"start":770.322,"end":795.271,"text":"是,就是說當然公務員依法行政嘛,那我們就是做政策性的檢討,那必要時候修改法令,那在法令的解釋範圍內,我們可以鬆綁。我是說政策的方向如果定了,我們就是這些行政措施啊,怎麼樣能夠來對應。我想是委員關心的是在這個行政面也是要有一些配合。部長所以我們接下來會來跟外交部來討論,也希望部長可以全力支持,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時19分）謝謝主席，請林部長跟梁副主委。"],["主席：請林部長還有副主委。"],["洪委員申翰：兩位，不好意思，我的聲音因為這幾天在立法院的事件有受傷的狀況，但我還是要請問，因為大家都講到美國大選的結果現在出來了，我們知道臺灣政府其實一直以來跟共和黨、民主黨的關係都很緊密，我想這個部分大家不會多作質疑。但確實在民主黨跟共和黨的政策上面，還是會有一些地方不同。剛才前面有幾位委員也都問到了，尤其是我們看到川普總統可能接下來在貿易戰，也包括在科技管制上面的作法，目前判斷起來是有可能會比拜登政府來得更趨強硬及嚴格。尤其是這段時間，我們的先進晶片流入到華為的事情，坦白說，很多的國際友人都跟我們表達對這件事情非常關切，先請問部長和副主委，你們覺得我們在科技管制上面的管制作為有沒有需要加強的地方？請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：因為瓦聖納協定這個國際規範我們沒辦法參加，但我們是以這個作為基礎，可是在晶片上面的管制有很多新的規範，美國也透過Fab 4所謂的4個主要的非紅供應鏈，就是美、臺、日、韓……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我就直問，你覺得臺灣政府對於這些科技和經濟安全的管制工作有沒有值得再強化和加強的地方？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們還有需要再加強的地方。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得哪些地方需要加強？"],["林部長佳龍：因為科技的發展日新月異，有關於整個半導體供應鏈的部分，因為中國是一個很多民主國家認定的戰略競爭者，所以對它的管制是比較嚴。"],["洪委員申翰：同樣的，我想問副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得臺灣有很多東西還要做。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天特別針對的是科技管制，尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制，兩位有沒有覺得需要再加強的地方？我想問副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：譬如我舉個例子，現在我們通過的所謂關鍵技術管制，但是因為受限於種種因素，那些關鍵技術管制的範圍是不是足夠、是不是夠廣、是不是真正管到該管的，類似這樣，我覺得這些都是還有很多可以加強的地方。"],["洪委員申翰：我這邊想要跟兩位說，我今天踩在一個執政黨立法委員的角度，兩位都是我們整體國安團隊的成員，對於現在尤其是川普總統上臺以後，當國際上面對於科技管制，尤其是經濟安全下的科技管制越來越重視，甚至要求越來越具體的時候，我確實認為我們的經濟安全科技管制是不足夠的。我希望兩位也可以向整體的國安團隊，包括財金部會，應該要明確的反映，這已經是攸關臺灣整體利益的事情，我們如果沒有做好，比方像現在先進晶片流到華為這件事情，不管是在哪一個環節上面流到華為，這很有可能會重傷國際對於臺灣的信任，我們都還不講這個晶片有沒有流到對岸的武器上面，但這會重傷對臺灣的信任。當現在大家談到信任的供應鏈、韌性的供應鏈、安全的供應鏈的時候，這對臺灣來說是相當不利的事情，尤其是在現在川普總統上任的時候。我必須還是要表達，身為一個執政黨的委員非常關切這件事情，也希望兩位可以如實的向我們其他的國安團隊來傳達這件事情，這是第一個。","第二個我想請教，這幾天我們看到印度次長級官員來到臺灣，來談關於移工引進的MOU問題，部長，你應該也認識過去在臺印關係處理上面有一位陳牧民老師。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["洪委員申翰：陳牧民老師在今年6月的時候寫了一篇投書，我唸一下這篇投書的內容，他是這樣寫的，他說：印度政府很容易根據他們自己的利益，直接接洽臺灣的各政府部門，甚至直接談判，由於臺灣政府各部會在新南向政策上都有自己的優先事項，但彼此間沒有建立完整的跨部會協調機制，這就給印度政府各個擊破的機會。他的意思很簡單，當印度政府很靈活的來跟臺灣各個部會自行溝通、談判的時候，他認為外交部在這裡面統籌掌握籌碼的空間就降低了。所以也許我們可以利用印度政府希望我們引進印度移工的機會來提升臺印關係，成為提升臺印關係的籌碼時，這時候外交部掌控的籌碼就不夠了，請問部長，陳牧民老師的這個說法，你同不同意？"],["林部長佳龍：同意，我也跟委員報告，確實，因為很多國家的外交部是負責包括對外的經貿談判，可是臺灣的情形，因為過去外交部的角色比較沒有那麼明顯，現在既然在行政院成立了經濟外交工作小組，我們會加強這方面跨部會的協調，特別是通報制度，所以行政院也已經通函各部會，未來外國駐臺的代表或者是大使，所有跟我們的交涉都是要通報，包括外交部在內，通報制度的建立是第一個，我們才能掌握資訊。第二個，不要被各個擊破，甚至有一些地方，我們發現……"],["洪委員申翰：就是陳牧民老師提醒的事情，"],["林部長佳龍：有些地方甚至是透過一些企業來繞過我們的政府部門，所以我們也要跟產業界溝通，因為如果沒有政府作為後盾，像這些不管是立法或相關的行政配合，這個是我們總和外交的一部分。我不要指特定國家，我們慢慢要把經濟外交的機制檢討好，除了在行政院層次的跨部會小組之外，外交部會跟各部會協作，通報制度的建立之外，未來的對外涉外事務，比如我們有外館，也有很多的部會有派員，我們也需要做一個總和外交的團隊。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，因為我時間有限，當然在這裡我相信部長有改善這件事情誠意，可是還是想要在外交委員會來表達我們對這件事情的關切，也希望外交部接下來對於綜整或是統籌各部會相關的談判或溝通協調，甚至各種利益上面的討論，都可以強化掌控的狀況，這部分還是要跟部長說。","最後，我想問部長，你知不知道我們有所謂南向政策理念？其實南向政策我們這幾年做了不少，但是在印度內部，我覺得臺灣還有一群滿重要的盟友，他們和臺灣一樣信奉自由民主價值，也很瞭解印度，也有助於增進臺灣與印度的關係。部長，你知不知道這群盟友會是誰？"],["林部長佳龍：就是包括藏人，我想他們是很重要的。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們在跟印度的交流裡面，其實我認為有非常非常重要的一群就是達賴喇嘛帶領的流亡藏人社群，這個社群在某個部分，他們跟中國之間，我不能講對抗，但是他們也是在面對中國的各種入侵跟侵害，這部分其實跟臺灣的利益是一樣的，都要抵禦中國的侵擾。但他們一樣在印度扎根了65年，所以他們對印度非常熟悉，包括印度的制度、語言、文化，他們都非常熟悉，我只是想問部長，你覺得可不可以將這群印度的流亡藏人社群納入臺灣南向政策裡面的重要夥伴？"],["林部長佳龍：我同意委員應該是要把他納入，尤其是在臺印關係當中，藏人可以作為一個很好的橋梁，隨著臺灣到印度的投資增加，我們也很需要人才。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，如果你在這邊說這些藏人社群其實是臺灣在臺印關係上或南向政策上非常重要的夥伴，那我覺得我們就要面對一件事情，坦白說，現在臺灣的簽證制度還有很多對於這些印度的藏人相對不友善的地方，他們可能想要來臺灣交流或者來臺灣求學、來臺灣學中文，目前都還面對我們在整體簽證制度上面不少的阻礙。我的意思是很簡單，因為過去面對這些藏人社群，我們都把他們當作就是拿印度IC的無國籍的人，我們之前一直會這樣認定，但如果今天如部長說的，我們把他視為我們在南向政策裡面的重要夥伴的話，那可能就可以有一些特別的政策，不只是把他們視為無國籍的人這樣子對待的可能性，部長你覺得我們有沒有可能朝這個方向，真的把他們當作是臺灣在臺印關係裡面，甚至是南向政策裡面的重要夥伴？那我們就要處理他們相對應的這些權利的問題，部長，你覺得？"],["林部長佳龍：在政策方向上，我是支持委員剛剛的主張，在具體作法我就請包括外交部跟跨部會，我們來進行一些檢討，最近也因為……我覺得政策的定位來做法令的檢討跟必要的修改，就是說以鬆綁的方向，但是循序地來進行，我想不管是流亡印度的藏人，或者是他們可以作為……我想本身跟臺灣的關係以外，就是可以跟印度做一個很好的橋梁。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我覺得最重要的事情就是你剛才說的，你也同意他們是我們的重要夥伴，不是只是一般的無國籍的人，這個認知跟這個認定是至關重要的事情，在這個認定跟認知上面，我們才有再往前在政策上面做出更好處理的空間，所以我非常非常支持剛才部長也覺得可以把他們當作重要夥伴，我覺得我們當然很願意來跟包括外交部，甚至這個……來討論我們怎麼在幫助他們的權益上面可以做更多，真正把他們當作是我們重要夥伴，部長應該同意吧？"],["林部長佳龍：是，就是說當然公務員依法行政嘛！我們就是做政策性的檢討，必要的時候修改法令，在法令的解釋範圍內，我們可以鬆綁，我是說政策的方向如果定了，就是這些行政措施怎麼樣能夠來對應，我想委員關心的是在行政面也是要有一些配合啦！"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，所以我們接下來會跟外交部討論，也希望部長可以全力支持，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，部長請回。","接下來，我們請楊瓊瓔委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054237c358f2b65c14e13be6769c271087bdf3ad428b0eec556e3ae72de851352f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:25:42 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謝謝林處理委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時25分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長及陸委會的李副主委。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長，陸委會李副主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早安，已經快午安了。我今天要問的題目因為時間有限，我先快速的講完之後，再請經濟部跟陸委會來做回應。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員楚茵：今天是11月7號，中國淘寶以雙11為名義在臺灣可以說是鋪天蓋地的撒下了廣告，就是淘寶免運，但是昨天我在外交委員會質詢國安局的時候就已經講了，其實這可能是另外一個惠臺政策，而且是一個養套殺，國安局說他會跟經濟部及相關單位聯繫，但是我希望在這裡好好的跟經濟部，還有陸委會來做了解，到底是撿到便宜，還是免費的最貴？","中國現在因為產能過剩，他們的經濟下行，所以很多東西都用補貼的方式送到國外去，我相信部長非常清楚電動車的議題，但是這種「養」是不是把淘寶的消費者養大？然後用降價的策略方式，其實是要打擊國內其他電商，淘寶現在在臺灣有落地嗎？在管理上面，經濟部有沒有注意到？為什麼說是「套」？因為它可以要我們的個資、要我們交易的所有資訊，還有就是包括我們的信用相關的付款資訊，所以這是套出我們的個資，再加上中國商品一旦進來臺灣之後，如果有一些爭議，沒有落地的話，到底要如何保護真正臺灣消費者的權益？最後一個是「殺」，我希望部長還有陸委會注意看，現在淘寶按照它的流量來講，臺灣是淘寶的第二大市場，過去中國最喜歡用的方式就是先補貼，把所有它們的競爭對手殺光之後，再把價格往上拉抬，這就是中國慣用的伎倆──養套殺。而在臺灣，如果面對中國一直用這種方式做商品傾銷，然後用這種所謂給予恩惠的方式先把臺灣境內的這些電商打趴之後，未來你就變成什麼東西都要仰賴中國，所以我們的中小企業有沒有受到影響？中小電商有沒有受到影響？我希望經濟部跟陸委會能夠研究這個問題，好嗎？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您的垂詢非常正確，對於這個部分，電商的部分我們會跟數位部合作，針對這個命題，我想數位部也在強化我國電商的能力了，對於我們會有什麼樣的影響？中國的東西大概都是價格，因為您剛才在講它有補助，所以價格上面會相對的低，我們當然是幫助臺灣廠商提升它的競爭優勢。第二個，我們來看它有沒有違反我們的商業規範，如果有的話，我們就禁止它在臺灣做promotion。"],["林委員楚茵：包括它現在在捷運、公車站，或者是其他大眾交通運輸工具上面的廣告，到底這種跨境電商沒有落地臺灣可不可以這樣打廣告，我也希望經濟部跟陸委會去查，好嗎？然後給我一份報告。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["林委員楚茵：因為外委會的委員時間比較有限，我也不期待部長現在馬上，但是我希望這樣的問題，包括淘寶要不然就落地，它為什麼不能落地？因為有中資的成分在裡面嘛！它有黨政軍在裡面嘛，對不對？陸委會。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員，我們也有注意到這個問題，這個也涉及到我們對陸資的管理，我們會會同相關單位來積極處理這件事情。"],["林委員楚茵：好，可不可以給我一個時間點？主席，是不是可以請他們給我一個報告？"],["主席：好，請提供報告。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：OK，看委員需要多久時間，我們……"],["林委員楚茵：你們多久時間可以出來？"],["主席：兩週啦。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們要會同相關部會，因為陸資的部分還是經濟部的主管。"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["主席：一個月好了。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長，一個月，謝謝。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。","下一位質詢請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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這個電子煙進入校園今天在前面幾位委員就各個層面也都跟大家做一些請教跟建議那我這邊提到的是當然這個電子煙其實一般人也感受不到在校園裡面最直接像教安人員、學務主任、輔導主任都可以在很短的時間內知道尤其是在偏鄉也是"},{"start":99.709,"end":115.902,"text":"非都會的學校現在已經都蠻嚴重的但是我們從那個國建署110年青少年吸菸的行為調查顯示目前使用率已經上升到3.9%很高那高中值,國中是3.9%那高中值是8.8%"},{"start":118.044,"end":142.297,"text":"早上有很多人都提到那已經將近七八萬名甚至已經快到九萬的這個青少年使用電子煙所以這個問題很嚴重但是呢我們就算罰還的部分很高一萬元但是這個三部政策我想請教一下部長不嘗試、不購買、不推薦那在你們那個宣導跟施行防制後整個電子煙的使用率是不是有降低"},{"start":144.401,"end":159.112,"text":"我們從學校的一個通報裡邊它事實上有微乎的增加但是相當大概就是有微乎的增加所以你們還要再努力接下來在世衛組織WHO提出來的104個戒煙的理由當中指出當然我們都知道煙對其他人有影響但是電子煙對於孩子腦部的影響也非常的大對一般人應該有一個常態性的影響"},{"start":173.143,"end":196.848,"text":"所以,凝固煙的成癮風險非常高,大概有九成研究指出,電子煙不比吸食煙的族群肺部疾病來得少發生率好像有高出4.36倍電子煙是很重要的一個影響身體健康的原因所以在這個整個校園危害防制的實施計畫"},{"start":198.348,"end":199.089,"text":"世界衛生組織也好,國際實證對於青少年使用臨床藥物戒菸這件事還沒有實證"},{"start":220.808,"end":229.53,"text":"所以大部分的研究都是指出要透過戒菸輔導、心理諮商跟戒菸教育來協助他離開菸品所以我們除了跟我們的戒菸專線裡面來跟更多的合作用結構式的方式來協助如果尋求戒菸服務的小朋友們"},{"start":244.594,"end":244.634,"text":"主席"},{"start":267.438,"end":281.829,"text":"好的謝謝您這邊的回應所以這樣聽起來我們在實證還沒有確定之前也有一些沒有依循的困難對不對但是已經雖然沒有藥物的部分但是衛教或者心理輔導的部分我們是持續在做"},{"start":282.861,"end":307.775,"text":"好的謝謝您這邊的回應所以這其實也點出我待會要講的一個問題那接下來就是在這個國建署和您辦理的這個吸煙調查裡面您其實剛才有講到那個壓力的疏解就心理的這個部分是很大的一個原因這個部分其實也點出教育部我們在這個心理輔導老師的不足這個其實這個議題在我們委員會裡面也一直提到第一個是"},{"start":308.696,"end":336.398,"text":"新府教師的不足還有輔導相關專業的人數的不足其次是就是這個專業要對應的人太多的比例太高了一要比一千二如果我們這個調查室這邊資訊顯示是比較公允的話那真的是負擔太大那不管是醫療院所或者是學校我覺得對於這樣子的負擔可能都必須要再做一個處理所以這件事情的很重要一個根本就是大家"},{"start":337.099,"end":360.661,"text":"很多的比例是為了紓解壓力紓解壓力的情況下這個其實教育部門要去檢討一下整體的政策為什麼大家的好心都讓整個社會包括老師包括學生壓力都很大其次的解決就是需要有人來幫助結果心服老師或者是輔導相關的專業也不夠所以在這邊我提出幾個數據你們思考一下"},{"start":362.343,"end":371.167,"text":"42%的學生沒有心腹還有這個議題的這個相關宣導活動就你今天講的這個電子煙的議題然後再來35.7%曾經在輔導課上談過相關的議題那27.7%的學生有聽過專人的演講再來不到20%只有19.1%的學生有導師在班上宣傳所以這個數據也提供你們一個參考"},{"start":386.476,"end":386.536,"text":"林倩綺議員"},{"start":416.896,"end":419.558,"text":"教育部或衛福部有要針對這個部分做一些回應嗎?我想確實這一個看起來我們這一個老師因為社會在進步科技快速的在精進我們老師其實許多的教學包括我們臺灣的教育普及"},{"start":438.473,"end":439.714,"text":"對老師的教學品質,確實他會有一個更高的一些、更多的期待。"},{"start":460.103,"end":482.291,"text":"所以本席這邊點出來了壓力是這整件事情的來源然後其次是紓解壓力的人或處理壓力的人也不夠這個是教育部還有體建署也是相關的單位沒有關係 這個部分請你們好好的研議好不好要不然我們會一天到晚一直在處理這些問題所以系統性的問題請你們注意好嗎"},{"start":486.152,"end":488.534,"text":"網路時代我們國人平均使用網路的時間是7.14小時那高於全球的6.37小時那這個跟今天有關的是"},{"start":509.252,"end":516.796,"text":"五成二接受調查的孩童跟青少年比較喜歡透過螢幕來閱讀三成二喜歡用傳統的紙本來閱讀這就代表目前我們是沒有辦法逃離這樣一個狀況所以跟今天有關的就是在你們怎麼去處理這個嚴格把關的議題除了網路監測平台以外那是不是還有更積極的配套措施"},{"start":536.684,"end":553.862,"text":"報告委員有關於教育部的自動安全部分應該會在部裡頭再處理所以我想我們一定會跟教育部一起同理合作把學生的自動安全的部分能夠處理到希望能夠更進步以上那還是希望你們抓出重點來處理解決系統性的問題"},{"start":555.143,"end":580.498,"text":"那接下來是校園暴力我很快的講一下2023年其實整年度高中值的暴力事件已經26442件那高於2022年的1萬件那平均每天有71件暴力那事實上目前在政策預防層面其實好像很少這個系統性的政策與指引那分析處理好像也不太完整所以我在提醒面對暴力事件去年的12月25號的校園暴力那應該"},{"start":583.941,"end":597.533,"text":"其實這個問題的終結就是你們不應該全數讓老師去對應這整個暴力事件的這個它成為這裡面最重要的一個第一現場所以很多因素是不利於老師的那我不知道你們這個部分"},{"start":599.574,"end":625.368,"text":"我沒太多時間讓你們回答但是我講一個啦就是說偏差行為的少年離開了少年關護所或矯正學校請問誰要來承接那處罰的少年離開關護所一到三月那很多處罰的少年認為關進去也沒關係啊那請問對於那個遵守規則的學生怎麼去處理呢他們怎麼去因應呢這就好像 有人有問題嘛反正他有問題沒有問題"},{"start":626.949,"end":646.999,"text":"所以我是不是可以製造問題?會變成這種心態啊?部長跟委員報告有一些這個暴力這個違反法令規範的我們事實上是各縣市都現在有建立了一個過渡性的一個教育機構也就是說有一些相關的一些課程在做介入的"},{"start":647.159,"end":648.381,"text":"教育部的防制方向和政策方向要做很大的檢討和翻轉"},{"start":663.399,"end":666.943,"text":"體育署本賢想請教在電子煙的防治你們有什麼作為我不知道你會不會覺得很遠但是應該很多像研究都顯示出透過運動可以保持身體健康也能夠讓心理健康"},{"start":680.199,"end":708.468,"text":"那當然這有一些生理性的直接影響是有被調查出來的所以本席剛才講到紓解壓力其實體育署這個部分可以再跟積極的作為在電子煙這個部分也好校園暴力也好那你們怎麼樣有積極的具體的作為讓全民運動也某種程度的來負擔跟解除這樣子的一個問題體育署 嗯報告委員您剛剛已經把答案講出來了其實這個就是我們現在在努力規劃的方向"},{"start":708.988,"end":732.785,"text":"是是是,但是不要只跟本席說那個運動部要成立了齁然後那個就能夠解決一些問題成立了之後呢你們的責任越大如果這些問題在過程當中都沒有好好討論跟實際的作為去檢視相關的問題那個問題還是會層出不窮而且可能還更大好最後就本席做一個進度請問那個金融國家羽球中心齁人家奧運得完了之後呢接下來你們的後續"},{"start":734.394,"end":735.355,"text":"謝謝署長,我們也樂見全民運動也能幫我們今天討論的議題來解決部分的問題。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時13分）謝謝主席。我待會兒再請好了。"],["主席：你想請誰？"],["林委員倩綺：我今天會請教教育部、國健署、數發部、體育署跟矯正署。"],["主席：好，那就教育部、衛福部，然後數發部，對不對？"],["林委員倩綺：對。"],["主席：還有呢？警政署？"],["林委員倩綺：體育署跟矯正署。但是待會兒會依序，感謝召委，謝謝。"],["主席：這樣吧，如果等一下倩綺委員有質詢到的議題，你們再主動上來，好不好？現在先這些。"],["林委員倩綺：對，應該是教育部部長先。"],["主席：衛福部、教育部，然後數發部。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長。我也很感謝召委設定今天這樣的題目，把它排進議程，提供學校良好的環境是學習的基礎，對於這件事情，我們要鍥而不捨地來處理。這個部分其實是我對於永續性發展很重視的，所以一開始就是電子煙進入校園，今天前面幾位委員就各個層面，也都跟大家做一些請教跟建議。其實一般人感受不到電子煙，但在校園裡面最直接，像教安人員、學務主任、輔導主任都可以在很短的時間內知道，尤其在偏鄉也是。不論非都會、都會的學校，現在已經都蠻嚴重的，但是國健署110年青少年吸菸的行為調查顯示，目前使用率已經上升到3.9%，很高！國中是3.9%，高中職是8.8%。早上有很多委員都提到，將近七、八萬名，甚至已經快到9萬的青少年在使用電子煙，所以這個問題很嚴重，就算罰鍰1萬元很高。針對三不政策，我想請教一下部長，不嘗試、不購買、不推薦在你們的宣導跟施行防制後，整體電子煙的使用率是不是有降低？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上，從學校的通報可知，有微幅增加，但是大概都……"],["林委員倩綺：有微幅的增加，所以你們還要再努力。接下來，世衛組織WHO提出104個戒菸的理由當中指出，當然我們都知道菸對其他人有影響，但是電子煙對於孩子腦部的影響也非常大，對一般人應該也有常態性的影響，所以尼古丁的成癮風險非常高，大概有九成。研究指出抽電子煙不比吸食菸的族群肺部疾病來得少，發生率好像高出了有4.36倍，電子煙是影響身體健康很重要的一個原因，而校園菸害防制的實施計畫是針對傳統菸。我想請教一下國健署，你們在醫療院所的相關配套措施跟現在的成效，可以跟本席報告嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：因為世界衛生組織或國際，對於青少年使用臨床藥物戒菸這件事還沒有實證，所以大部分的研究都指出，要透過戒菸輔導、心理諮商跟戒菸教育來協助他們離開菸品，所以我們除了跟戒菸專線有更多的合作，用結構式的方式來協助尋求戒菸服務的小朋友們，怎麼樣透過結構式來戒菸。","另外，您剛剛提到的，全國現在有將近三千多個醫療院所提供戒菸服務，我們可以做戒菸衛教，但是小朋友對藥物的部分還需要更多實證，所以三千多所的醫療機構是可以協助青少年在戒菸服務上的戒菸衛教、可以一起來做的。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝您的回應，所以這樣聽起來，我們在實證還沒有確定之前，有一些沒有依循的困難，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，雖然沒有藥物的部分，但是衛教或者心理輔導的部分，我們持續在做。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝您的回應，所以這也點出我待會兒要講的一個問題。接下來就是國健署辦理的吸菸調查，其實您剛才有講到壓力的紓解，就是心理的部分是很大的一個原因，這個部分也點出教育部的心理輔導老師不足，其實這個議題在我們委員會裡面也一直提到。第一個是心輔教師不足，還有輔導相關專業的人數不足。其次是這個專業要對應的人太多、比例太高，1要比1,200，如果這個調查資訊顯示是比較公允的話，真的是負擔太大，不管是醫療院所或者學校，對於這樣的負擔可能都必須要再處理。這件事情很重要的一個根本就是，大家很多的比例是為了紓解壓力，在紓解壓力的情況下，教育部要檢討一下整體政策，為什麼讓整個社會壓力都很大，包括老師、學生？其次的解決就是需要有人來幫助，結果心輔老師或者是輔導相關的專業人數也不夠，所以我在這邊提出幾個數據，你們思考一下。42%的學生沒有心輔，還有這個議題的相關宣導活動，就是我們今天講的電子煙議題。再來，35.7%曾經在輔導課上談過相關議題，27.7%的學生有聽過專人演講，不到20%、只有19.1%的學生有導師在班上宣傳，所以這個數據也提供你們參考。","不過最終的重點就是，為什麼大家現在在校園裡面壓力都那麼大，包括老師、學生？所以就有輔導專業的需求，學輔法上路了10年，三級輔導也實施很多年，結果大家的壓力越來越大，這也是導致電子煙入侵的關鍵。抽菸、飲酒，甚至出入不良場所，這些都是壓力所造成，我覺得我們應該做很系統性的處理跟整理。請問教育部或衛福部有要針對這個部分做一些回應嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實看起來因為社會在進步，科技快速地在精進，包括老師許多的教學、臺灣的教育普及家長對小孩子的教育，也都非常關心。資訊的公開、家長的教育普及，包括少子化過程，對老師教學的品質確實會有更高、更多的一些期待，我想對老師確實……"],["林委員倩綺：對於高教或者所有教育體系，你應該都非常清楚，所以本席這邊點出來，壓力是這整件事情的來源，其次是紓解壓力或處理壓力的人也不夠，這個是教育部……還有體育署也是相關的單位，沒有關係，這個部分請你們好好地研議，好不好？要不然我們會一天到晚、一直在處理這些問題，所以系統性的問題請你們注意，好嗎？","接下來我很快地講一下，這跟數發部有關，但我不知道有沒有時間讓你們回應，剛才也有幾位委員針對數發的部分提出了一些建言。在網路時代，我們國人平均使用網路的時間是7.14小時，高於全球的6.37小時，這個跟今天有關的是，五成二接受調查的孩童跟青少年比較喜歡透過螢幕來閱讀，三成二喜歡用傳統的紙本來閱讀，這就代表目前我們沒有辦法逃離這樣一個狀況。所以跟今天有關的就是，你們要怎麼去處理嚴格把關的議題？除了網路監測平臺以外，是不是還有更積極的配套措施？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，關於教育部資通安全的部分應該會在部裡頭處理，我想我們一定會跟教育部一起通力合作，把學生資通安全的部分處理到……希望能夠更進步，以上。"],["林委員倩綺：還是希望你們抓出重點來處理、解決系統性的問題。","接下來是關於校園暴力，我很快地講一下，2023年整年度的高中職暴力事件已經達2萬6,442件，高於2022年的1萬件，平均每天有71件暴力。事實上，目前在政策預防層面好像很少系統性的政策與指引，分析處理好像也不太完整，所以我再提醒關於面對暴力事件，例如去年12月25號的校園暴力，其實這個問題的癥結就是你們不應該全數讓老師去對應這整個暴力事件、讓他成為這裡面最重要的第一現場，所以很多因素是不利於老師的。","我不知道你們這個部分……我也沒太多時間讓你們回答，但是我講一個就是，偏差行為的少年離開了少年觀護所或矯正學校，請問誰要來承接？那觸法的少年1到3月就能離開觀護所，很多觸法少年認為關進去也沒關係，請問對於遵守規則的學生怎麼去處理呢？他們怎麼去因應呢？這就好像有人有問題，反正他有問題就沒有問題，所以我是不是可以製造問題？會變成這種心態啊！部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，對於一些違反法令規範的暴力，事實上，各縣市現在都有建立了一個過渡性的教育機構，也就是說，有一些相關的課程介入……"],["林委員倩綺：部長，就請你把相關的資料給本席，好嗎？至少本席要知道你在這方面是怎麼處理的？但是我也提醒一下，現在教育部在很多的防制方向或政策方向上真的要做很大的檢討跟翻轉！","最後關於體育署，本席想請教在電子煙防制上你們有什麼作為？我不知道你會不會覺得很遠，但應該有很多研究都顯示出，透過運動可以保持身體健康、也能夠讓心理健康，當然一些生理性的直接影響是有被調查出來的，所以本席剛才講到紓解壓力，其實體育署這個部分可以再更積極的作為，在電子煙這個部分也好、校園暴力也好，你們怎麼樣有積極的、具體的作為，讓全民運動某種程度來負擔跟解除這樣子的問題，體育署？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，您剛剛已經把答案講出來了，其實這個就是我們現在在努力規劃的方向。"],["林委員倩綺：是！但是不要只跟本席說運動部要成立了，然後就能夠解決一些問題，成立之後你們的責任越大，如果這些問題在過程當中都沒有好好討論或以實際的作為去檢視相關問題，那個問題還是會層出不窮，而且可能還更大！","最後，本席追一個進度，請問金融國家羽球中心在人家奧運得完了之後，接下來你們的後續、目前的進度？"],["鄭署長世忠：這案下星期我會親自到行政院做最後的報告，我想近期會有結果，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝署長，我們也樂見全民運動能夠幫我們今天討論的議題解決部分的問題，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。","接下來有請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef05467589ef84433e7d813be6769c271087bdf3ad428b0eec556cd1a9f1aef5a6a3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:16:51 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是要看美國的部分美國的部分會在年底前簽署嗎?美國必須要提出一個向國會提出報告"},{"start":502.421,"end":518.316,"text":"那我們預計在提出報告之後必須要有一段時間來生效所以有可能會到明年嗎這個部分可能要看美國他國內的情形好 我們希望持續努力請持續再努力好 謝謝好 謝謝代理人委員請回座代理人委員難得那麼準時"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時17分）謝謝主席，先請郭部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長辛苦了。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我先請教一個問題，其實綠電是我們未來重要的一個方向，經濟部絕對是全力發展綠電，這也是未來的趨勢，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我看到最近有一篇報導，其實也是跟我這幾年的感觸相當，在發展綠電過程中，其實國家鼓勵的政策，甚至躉購費率政策，都是正確的，才能加速發展，也有很多投入進來，可是到了地方執行之後遇到了很多的問題，我看到現在很多的弊案幾乎都是在地方執行上出了問題，甚至遇到很多的綠電蟑螂，就是你要取得土地，你要取得所有這些的時候，地方政府，甚至有時候地方的一些議會，甚至有一些黑道人士就介入。部長，這樣的問題要怎麼解決？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們在10月份的時候，行政院院長就針對這個議題直接到臺南，在臺南對所有的媒體宣布，未來針對綠電的問題，他絕不會允許任何的綠電蟑螂，或者這些不法的廠商在臺灣再做下去，所以他帶著經濟部、法務部、農業部直接到臺南去，就這個命題公開的宣布，不允許任何的不法行徑再繼續進行下去。所以我們建立了一個平臺，經濟部、法務部跟地方政府，我們希望大家可以在這個平臺上面，任何的不法都請檢舉，任何在溝通上的困難，透過這個平臺大家來解決。所以也許現在外商控訴臺灣發電的這個困境，對於昨天媒體的報導，經濟部也有提出一個非常完整的說明。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，經濟部知道這件事情，這樣的狀況在地方上在發生，你知道嘛！對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為只要有不法，我們絕對嚴懲。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，這個裡面有許多部分確實是現在遇到的一些問題，當然有些弊案也已經被抓出來，我希望經濟部站在前端，應該在制度面上思考怎麼去做好，不要讓弊端持續的發生，因為一來是傷害到臺灣在綠電方面國家的整體形象、政府的整體形象，二方面也是讓這些不肖的人在地方上不斷的用這樣的方式，他提到什麼機關說卡就卡，講到什麼毫無道理的索求，這是不是事實？在地方上，我聽到確實有許多這樣的狀況，每個地方的狀況不一樣，但是我認為其實經濟部及法務部要找到一套制度面去解決，把這些阻斷掉之後，你才能夠讓有心來推動綠電的這些業者持續投入臺灣，不然往往最後會變成劣幣驅逐良幣，而且往往會讓將來整個綠電發展遇到很大的困境。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝委員的垂詢。這一部分我們都在討論，也已經設置辦法，我們在綠電平台上面都有一些辦法讓業者可以非常穩健……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，什麼樣的辦法？你要不要再講得更具體一點？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是可以請能源署署長跟你報告？"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，可以，請署長。"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，第一個，剛剛提到的所有程序讓它公開透明化，所以要把所有這些標準訂出來，行政院也要求經濟部及農業部訂定，這是第一個。第二個，所有大型的投資個案，我們經濟部成立單一窗口來受理，有遇到任何投資障礙或是投資困難由我們單一窗口來受理。第三個，打擊綠能蟑螂的犯罪由經濟部及法務部……任何的情資我們就送到這個平台裡面去做相關的調查、偵查及處理。大概這三個方向。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果所有業者在投入時遇到一些困難的時候，我認為其實經濟部跟法務部要去介入了解他們遇到的困難是什麼樣的問題……"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果他們的困難是遇到這種綠電蟑螂刻意的惡意阻撓，甚至於恐嚇或威脅方式的話，經濟部跟法務部就應該要採取行動，我認為應該要主動，因為所有有心要投資、要做的，其實你們也都清楚，也都掌握到，應該用這種單一窗口的方式直接去協助，才能夠嚇阻掉這些，當這樣用更強力嚇阻的方式，這些人就不會利用這個去賺取這些非法利益，這樣才有辦法讓整個投資恢復信心，同時讓所有願意投資綠電的人有信心，好不好？希望部長跟署長持續，將你們每個月的執行狀況送一份報告給我這邊知道好嗎？我也希望在綠電上面我們是持續有所進展，讓全世界知道臺灣在支持、推動綠電上的決心，好不好？"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，每個月把你們的推行狀況給我一份報告。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們會把這些管制考核的部分送給委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我請教一下江署長。部長，你先休息。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：署長，我先請教，其實我知道因為你過去在美國也待了一段時間，包括加拿大，包括長期在國貿，我想問一下這一次川普當選對台灣整體上會有什麼樣的影響？"],["江署長文若：謝謝委員的垂詢。首先因為川普他是比較主張單邊主義，所以在貿易的部分應該全球都會受影響，另外，因為之前他在競選期間也有表達可能會對全世界出口到美國的產品加徵10%的關稅，萬一他實現了這個競選政見的話，其實全球出口美國都會受到影響，自然也會影響到美國境內相關產品的售價。第三點，因為他也有表達可能會對中國的產品課徵60%的關稅，這個部分的話，我們也在密切的關切當中。我們認為因為現在川普才宣布當選，據他實際上任還有一段時間，所以我們會利用這個時間積極密切的注意川普新政府所採取相關的經貿政策，"],["賴委員瑞隆：在面對他過去提出來的這些，萬一他落實了他那些想法的時候，臺灣有沒有什麼因應之道？"],["江署長文若：我想很重要的是，我們必須強化對美貿易的論述，讓美國知道臺灣是美國非常重要的一個供應鏈來源，而且臺灣跟美國在經貿部分其實在供應鏈是互補互利的，尤其我們出口美國大部分的產品其實都是中間材，這些中間材也是給美國客戶使用、應用、繼續製造相關的終端產品，所以我們必須積極強化我們相關的論述。"],["賴委員瑞隆：署長，這樣臺美貿易倡議的部分，協定的簽訂有沒有辦法在年底前生效？"],["江署長文若：我們首批協定已經完成，在國內的部分，我們的法律程序已經完成，現在最主要是要看美國的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，美國的部分會在年底前簽署嗎？還是會等到……"],["江署長文若：美國必須要向國會提出報告，我們預計在提出報告之後必須要有一段時間生效，所以我們還在……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以有可能會到明年嗎？"],["江署長文若：這個部分可能要看美國國內的情形。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們希望持續努力啦！"],["江署長文若：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請持續再努力，好，謝謝。"],["江署長文若：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員，請回座，賴委員，難得那麼準時。","下一位質詢請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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第一個是因為他們沒有及時的更新美國的清單因為美國的清單太早了 2019就已經發生了那我們開始有清單是比較晚的事情但他們也有提到就是說 國安單位啊 其他單位啊 也有一些concern所以他們在做這個決定的時候也有諮詢那因為外交部跟陸委會都在這一個戰略性高科技貨品出口實體管理名單的那個小組"},{"start":113.464,"end":128.977,"text":"所以我想問一下兩位關於這件事情的意見因為我是不太希望就是說到最後經濟部又說因為其他的部會有一些別的想法所以他們不覺得這個東西應該放在這個清單裡所以想問一下外交部跟陸委會對這件事情的意見"},{"start":131.82,"end":158.863,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為對於晶片是就是戰略性的產業所以它的出口管制我想有個國際的規範之外其實美國也透過FED4就是美、台、日、韓在形成一個管制的一個規範所以我們基本上就是要配合這個方面那至於個案的發生我想就是"},{"start":161.375,"end":179.606,"text":"臺積電也對外做說明這個部分也會未來做檢討所以大的方向是在整個出國管制上的國際合作臺灣會參加我們也必須要配合因為中國還是一個最大的競爭對手對美國對臺灣都是如此"},{"start":184.609,"end":200.798,"text":"謝謝部長,因為華為一直都不在清單裡面我自己是覺得有點不太理想不管怎樣華為在中國是非常具有代表性的一家公司那它如果沒有在清單裡面剩下就算這些彼特大陸跟算能科技在中間運作我們都沒有辦法去做一些相關的處置那副主委不知道有...謝謝"},{"start":203.415,"end":224.961,"text":"陸委會確實在這個小組裡面但是這個小組最近確實在review一些還要新增一些名單新增一些名單那目前是還沒有確定目前還沒有確定那根據最近的一些個案的發生等等我想這個小組都會"},{"start":226.801,"end":254.334,"text":"都會加以考慮謝謝副主委因為大概在兩個多我應該是大概在兩個多又要再review一次那我那時候會再做一次的追蹤那接下來就是說這一個剛剛前面這個美林委員也有提到這全球供應鏈現在是中國跟非中國所以呢這一個部分我覺得對我們的風險評估真的是非常的重要那但是就是說因為現在供應鏈分化其實台商他都會有這些風險的評估那不知道陸委會現在對於台商這方面的一些"},{"start":255.794,"end":282.81,"text":"一些建議或者說風險評估現在進行的狀況是如何?我覺得台商其實分成他們的類型不太一樣有一些是上市貴公司的這種台商有一種是我們傳統的台商那很多台商是去了三十幾年的那這些每一類台商他們所面對的這個風險跟機會都不太相同"},{"start":284.532,"end":309.931,"text":"但是其實全部的台商面對到同一個最大的問題就是說第一個就是中國的相關的所謂的國安法或是反間諜法等等就是人身安全的問題有 這個陸委會都有在警告嗎對 這個我們都有在警告那但是個別的台商他們所面對的狀況不太一樣譬如說現在因為中國大陸的經濟問題"},{"start":311.994,"end":338.087,"text":"那麼他們過去對於這些中小企業的台商可能想要騰龍換鳥或是想要有一點不是很重視但是現在又開始拿政策拿很多獎勵出來希望他們留下來所以大家所面對的狀況是不太一樣那有些人他有辦法離開有些人他有辦法轉到其他國家"},{"start":338.407,"end":352.899,"text":"但是有些人他可能就乾脆停止經營這個狀況不翼而逐但是我覺得總的來看的話台灣對中國的投資是逐年下降的那這個是我們可以看到的趨勢是很明顯的"},{"start":355.041,"end":376.12,"text":"因為經濟部某種程度當然是要去一些輔導但經濟部現在對於不管是這一個非紅供應鏈的這件事情又或者說制裁清單看起來還沒有完全跟上那其實他這方面的知識還是需要仰賴陸委會所以希望陸委會能夠給經濟部多一些這方面的協助那接下來這一件事情部長可能可以先休息一下因為這個完全是陸委會的業務"},{"start":379.123,"end":392.897,"text":"這個我先跳過因為這個我昨天問過國防部我想先問這一件事情因為現在時間的關係就是說呢因為最近有在講說就是假設他今天是這個中國人"},{"start":394.739,"end":417.284,"text":"那他要在台灣參選等等之類的這些我們本來就已經有相對應的一些規範但有時候會有另外一種情形就是說譬如說他今天是他是台灣但是他在其他的地方有取得中國的護照那很多時候時其實在台商身上因為我們自己在家裡做生意我們也知道其實中國在某一段時間其實在海外是常常在發中國護照的"},{"start":418.404,"end":440.47,"text":"現在有兩件事情一個就是剛剛前面這個事情就是說這個其實不是我們官方的所以是無關但是他是無戶籍的國民他有中華人民共和國的一個護照那在這樣的一個情形裡面他在台灣的投票權應該是如何這是第一個問題第二個問題就是最近新聞剛好有在傳就是某辦公室的這個助理那他是這個中國籍"},{"start":443.451,"end":469.627,"text":"中國籍之後他現在來到台灣那來到台灣之後呢因為他也是在這一個不分區的這個名單上面嘛我知道陸委會之前有做過相關的解釋是用國際法第20條但因為國際法第20條它是中華民國兼具外國國籍者那我們是因為把它放在中華民國國民嗎所以做一個擴張的解釋不知道陸委會對這件事情有沒有一個新的解釋因為這有可能是我們最近就可能會遇到的一個問題所以就這兩點想問一下陸委會的一個這個見解"},{"start":475.056,"end":475.516,"text":"我先從後面這個問題回答回來"},{"start":481.007,"end":507.295,"text":"我們的兩岸條例跟國籍法它其實規定了不同的樣態我們的兩岸條例是說你入籍就是說大陸人民取得中華民國的身份證之後差不多10年你可以有參政權但是我們的國籍法是規定你要擔任公職你必須你不能有雙重國籍"},{"start":509.236,"end":531.83,"text":"所以這兩套法律在解釋上面會產生一個衝突所以如果說真的要把這個問題解決我們入委會到目前為止我們從去年到現在我們對這個問題的看法是一貫的也就是說兩岸人民關係條例只保障你的參政權但是你真的要任公職的時候你要根據國際法"},{"start":533.831,"end":536.713,"text":"國際法的主管單位是內政部,內政部可能要有比較明確的解釋"},{"start":549.379,"end":575.226,"text":"所以這個部分我們到陸委會到目前的態度都是這樣好那因為這件事情我那個韓國的那個我們可以先暫緩就是說這件事情我們知道陸委會他有一個基本的解釋那我們可能會把這個解釋再去問內政部先確保因為我覺得這個是一定要在很早的時候就先確認那到底是要在他就任之前就要先申請然後過了一年之後再怎樣我覺得這種事情一定要先確認好我覺得規則要先說好那講到規則我就想問最後一個問題就是這次劉德華來台灣演唱"},{"start":578.787,"end":606.294,"text":"當然這邊還是要跟大家說明一下就是很多人說他是政協那他其實不是啦他並至少在官方的資料裡面我們看不到他是政協委員那他只是這一個電影XX什麼協會的一個副主席但是我在這邊並不是要問劉德華本身我想問的是說因為陸委會當時有出了一個結論就是說沒有傷害台灣的言論所以同意演出"},{"start":607.274,"end":624.487,"text":"我對這個沒有意見我想問的就是因為那個紅線現在看起來就是有沒有傷害台灣言論但有沒有傷害台灣言論有點抽象那因為以後一定會有更多的事情那以後這個紅線大概是畫在哪裡如果會不會有一個比較精準對於傷害台灣言論的一個解釋"},{"start":626.722,"end":654.177,"text":"我們對於傷害台灣的言論的解釋就是說你不可以貶低台灣的地位做一個國家的地位那這個是我們最基本的要求那至於劉德華這個事情呢我們的立場是一貫的因為很多人說他是什麼政協或是什麼但是我們查過了他並沒有他的沒有政協的官方資料而且"},{"start":655.497,"end":675.772,"text":"說實在政協在中國的黨政體制裡面是一個比較邊緣的位置那我們陸委會在審查的時候不會以有沒有當政協來作為標準那如果說現化在政協的話可能很多的中國的這個"},{"start":677.79,"end":695.043,"text":"對﹖對﹖對﹖"},{"start":695.103,"end":718.652,"text":"那如果有發生這樣的情況我們會請你離境那就像前一陣子有這個在西門町有發生搶旗子的那件事情我們也是立刻請他離境那這是我們的最基本的標準那當然其他的官方人士來的話我們可能還有別的特殊考慮那個就是個案處理case by case"},{"start":720.212,"end":743.263,"text":"謝謝副主委,因為之後一定會有一些比較灰色地帶的,比如說他可能不直接傷害台灣的國格,但他是確實,比如說像香港的東突厥斯坦的事情,那像這種比較民主價值的我們到底該怎麼認定,這一定會遇到,但我們可能就是慢慢的,至少我們能夠在之前能夠先討論出一個標準,有可能也會比較好對公眾有一個交代,那因為時間到了就很不好意思,謝謝副主委,謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時6分）謝謝主席。有請部長還有副主委。"],["主席：請林部長還有副主委。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好、副主委好。因為有些問題剛好是兩個都有，所以我就想先一次性的詢問，第一個問題，還是覺得召委真的很厲害，因為我們昨天最擔心的事情就是大選結果沒有出來，結果出來了，所以我們今天反而可以問這個問題。因為現在美國的選舉結果也已經出來了，不管是美國還是日本，對於現在經濟安全的保障是越來越多了，我在別的部會不管是在經濟部跟國防部，都有特別提到所謂供應鏈的問題，因為有紅色供應鏈、非紅色供應鏈等等之類的，最近因為有台積電流出的問題，我已經問了經濟部，我昨天也問國安局，其實裡面最重要的事情，就是我在第三點這邊寫的那三家，華為、比特大陸跟算能科技，我為什麼要問這個？是因為他們是白手套，算能科技是白手套，它屬於比特大陸，他們作為白手套，把先進的AI晶片流到華為。這件事情當時我在問的時候，經濟部說華為並沒有在他們的清單裡面，第一個，當時因為他們沒有即時更新美國的清單，因為美國清單太早了，2019年就已經發生了，我們開始有清單是比較晚的事情，他們也有提到國安單位、其他單位也有一些concern，所以他們在做這個決定的時候也有諮詢，因為外交部跟陸委會都在戰略性高科技貨品出口實體管理名單的小組，所以我想問一下兩位關於這件事情的意見，因為我是不太希望到最後經濟部又說因為其他的部會也有一些別的想法，所以他們不覺得這個東西應該放在清單裡，所以想問一下外交部跟陸委會對這件事情的意見。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，因為晶片就是戰略性的產業，所以它的出口管制，我想除了有個國際的規範之外，其實美國也透過Fab 4，就是美、臺、日、韓形成管制的一個規範，所以我們基本上就是要配合這個方面，至於個案的發生，我想台積電也對外說明，這個部分未來也會檢討，所以大的方向是在整個出口管制上的國際合作，臺灣會參加，我們也必須要配合，因為中國還是一個最大的競爭對手，對美國、對臺灣都是如此。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，因為華為一直都不在清單裡面，我自己是覺得有點不太理想，不管怎樣，華為在中國是非常具有代表性的一家公司，如果它沒有在清單裡面，剩下就算比特大陸跟算能科技在中間運作，我們都沒有辦法去做一些相關的處置。","副主委，不知道有何看法？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：陸委會確實在這個小組裡面，但是這個小組最近確實在review一些……還要新增一些名單，目前是還沒有確定，根據最近發生的個案等等，我想這個小組都會加以考慮。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝副主委，因為大概再兩個多月我要再review一次，那時候會再做一次追蹤。接下來，剛剛前面美玲委員也有提到，現在的全球供應鏈是「中國」和「非中國」，所以這個部分對我們的風險評估來說真的是非常重要。但是，因為現在供應鏈分化，其實臺商都會有這些風險評估，包括陸委會現在對於臺商這方面的一些建議，或是風險評估現在進行的狀況是如何？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得臺商其實分成……他們的類型不太一樣，有一些是上市櫃公司的臺商，有一種是傳統的臺商，很多臺商是去了三十幾年，每一類臺商所面對的風險跟機會都不太相同，但是全部的臺商要面對同一個最大的問題，第一個就是中國相關的國安法或反間諜法等等之類人身安全的問題。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個陸委會都有在警告，我們都有看到。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這些我們都有警示，但是個別臺商所面對的狀況不太一樣，譬如現在因為中國大陸的經濟問題，他們過去對於這些中小企業的臺商可能會想騰籠換鳥甚或想要有一點……不是很重視，但是現在又開始拿政策、拿很多獎勵出來希望他們留下來，所以大家所面對的狀況是不太一樣的。有些人有辦法離開，有些人有辦法轉到其他國家，但是有些人干脆就停止經營了，這個狀況不一而足，但是我覺得總的來看，臺灣對中國的投資是逐年下降的，這是我們可以看得到的趨勢，確實很明顯。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。因為經濟部某種程度當然要去輔導，但是經濟部現在對於不管是非紅供應鏈的這件事情，又或者是制裁清單，看起來還沒有完全跟上，其實他這方面的知識還是需要仰賴陸委會，所以希望陸委會能夠給經濟部多一些這方面的協助。","接下來這件事情，部長可能可以先休息一下，因為這個完全是陸委會的業務。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個我先跳過，因為這個我昨天問過國防部。我想先問這件事情，因為受限於時間的關係。就是最近有在講，假設他今天是中國人，他要在臺灣參選等等之類的，這些我們本來就已經有相對應的規範，但有時候會有另外一種情形，譬如說他今天是臺灣人，但是他在其他地方有取得中國護照，很多時候這種情形會發生在臺商身上，因為我們家裡自己在做生意我們也知道，中國在某一段時間在海外其實是常常在發中國護照的。","現在有兩件事情，一個就是剛剛前面的這個事情，這個其實不是我們官方的，所以是無關，但是他是無戶籍的國民，他有中華人民共和國的護照，在這樣的情形裡面，他在臺灣的投票權應該是如何？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，最近新聞剛好有在傳，某辦公室的助理是中國籍的，現在來到臺灣，來到臺灣之後，因為他也是在不分區的名單上面，我知道陸委會之前有用國籍法第二十條做過相關的解釋，但是國籍法第二十條是「中華民國兼具外國國籍者」，我們是因為把他放在中華民國國民，所以幫他做了擴張的解釋，不知道陸委會對這件事情有沒有一個新的解釋？因為這有可能是我們最近就會遇到的問題，所以就這兩點想問一下陸委會的見解。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我先從後面這個問題回答回來。"],["沈委員伯洋：可以。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們的兩岸條例跟國籍法其實規定了不同的樣態，兩岸條例是你入籍……大陸人民取得中華民國的身分證之後……"],["沈委員伯洋：有特定的年限。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：10年後就可以有參政權。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是我們的國籍法是規定，你要擔任公職就不能有雙重國籍，所以這兩套法律在解釋上會產生一個衝突。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以如果真的要把這個問題解決，我們陸委會從去年到目前為止，我們對這個問題的看法是一貫的，也就是說兩岸人民關係條例只保障你的參政權，但你真的要任公職的時候，就要根據國籍法……"],["沈委員伯洋：就回到國籍法了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為國籍法的主管單位是內政部，所以……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是陸委會當時先出了一個解釋……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，那內政部可能要有比較明確的解釋，所以這個部分我們陸委會到目前的態度都是這樣。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。因為這件事情……韓國的那個我們可以先暫緩，就是說，這件事情我們知道陸委會有一個基本的解釋，我們可能會把這個解釋再去問內政部，先確保……因為我覺得這個事一定要在很早的時候就先確認，到底是他在就任之前就要先申請，然後過了一年之後再怎樣，我覺得這種事情一定要先確認好。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：我覺得規則要先說好。講到規則，我就想問最後一個問題，就是這次劉德華來臺灣演唱，當然這邊還是要跟大家說明一下，很多人說他是政協，但他其實不是，至少在官方的資料裡面，我們看不到他是政協委員，他只是電影XX協會的副主席。我在這邊並不是要問劉德華本身，我想問的是，因為陸委會當時有出了一個結論，就是沒有傷害臺灣的言論，所以同意演出。我對這個沒有意見，我想問的就是，因為那個紅線現在看起來是「有沒有傷害臺灣的言論」，但「有沒有傷害臺灣的言論」有點抽象。因為以後一定會有更多的事情，以後這個紅線大概是畫在哪裡？陸委會對於「傷害臺灣言論」有沒有一個比較精準的解釋？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們對於「傷害臺灣的言論」的解釋就是，你不可以貶低臺灣的地位，然後……"],["沈委員伯洋：作為一個國家的地位。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：作為一個國家的地位。這個是我們最基本的要求，至於劉德華這件事情，我們的立場是一貫的，因為很多人說他是政協或是什麼，但是我們查過了……"],["沈委員伯洋：目前查不出來。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他目前並沒有政協的官方資料，而且說實在的，政協在中國的黨政體制裡面是一個比較邊緣的位子，我們陸委會在審查的時候，不會以有沒有當政協來作為標準。如果說線畫在政協的話，可能很多中國官方人士或是黨政軍的人士都沒有辦法來。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，如果有把政協諮詢委員包含進去的話，那就更多人了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。所以我們的線就是這樣，你要來可以，我們的基本要求就是你不能夠貶低臺灣的地位，如果有發生這樣的情況，我們會請你離境。就像前一陣子在西門町有發生……"],["沈委員伯洋：搶旗子的……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：搶旗子的那件事情，我們也是立刻請他離境，這是我們最基本的標準。當然，其他官方人士來的話，我們可能還有別的特殊考慮，那個就是個案處理，case by case。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，謝謝副主委，因為之後一定會有一些比較灰色地帶的，譬如說他可能不直接傷害臺灣的國格，但他卻是……譬如說香港東突厥斯坦的事情，像這種民主價值的，我們到底該怎麼認定？這一定會遇到，但我們可能就是慢慢地，至少我們能夠在之前先討論出一個標準，有可能會比較好對公眾有個交代。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為時間到了，我覺得很不好意思，謝謝副主委、謝謝主席。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，副主委請回。","接下來我們請洪申翰委員上台質詢。修正稍早的公告：待會楊瓊瓔委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0548a8b44e7c628fbb2be9b0bd4ecc214d5df3ad428b0eec5568cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:53:56 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有請林部長有請林部長"},{"start":11.54,"end":37.472,"text":"特朗普即將要重訪白宮那部長早上你有提到就是說在臺美這個強健的夥伴關係基礎上面美國跨黨派對臺灣的支持跟對臺灣的安全承諾都會延續那我也很認同那剛剛部長各自提到說我們要勇敢自信美國偉大我們會跟著偉大那可是呢特朗普畢竟不是拜登"},{"start":38.112,"end":64.173,"text":"所以拜登對台的政策,川普不可能全面跟隨。本期在上個月有看到華府智庫布魯金斯研究所之聲研究員普瑞澤跟何瑞恩有提到,川普當選對台灣的態度會像他對其他的外交議題一樣難以預測,預期他會以交易的心態來處理台灣的議題。"},{"start":65.774,"end":66.794,"text":"委員會提供更多利益,例如增加軍購及投資等。"},{"start":85.319,"end":89.28,"text":"川普對台灣採取深化經濟關係加強安全合作還有提升台灣的國際地位的做法是有很大的不同那再來我要請教部長就是說像去年2023年6月美台雙方呢敲定了美台21世紀貿易倡議的第一份協議那第二份的這個協議呢我們還在談判"},{"start":110.886,"end":111.727,"text":"會不會因為新政府的上台而產生變故?"},{"start":130.458,"end":146.171,"text":"跟委員報告有關21世紀臺美貿易倡議第一階段的談判已經確定了年底前會宣布完成所有的程序至於第二階段也在談判中也相當有進展"},{"start":147.792,"end":163.083,"text":"當然因為原來12個項目裡面也還有第三階段所以我們會循序漸進先確保第一階段如期通過第二階段的談判現在也是順利在進行中所以這個21世紀貿易的倡議它是一個"},{"start":169.787,"end":169.947,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":198.656,"end":219.892,"text":"有關投資美國因為因應著未來可能就是晶片法案的執行那新的可能性的發展我也密切注意那我們也會增加對美國的投資跟採購我覺得都要因應他新總統有新的名義那台美關係要好一定是要做相應的我們來加強那至於說每個總統有他的領導風格我倒不認為說這裡面會涉及難以預測"},{"start":227.617,"end":233.339,"text":"大家都可以預測得到,因為他的Mega,他的讓美國再次偉大的主張很清楚,很具體的應該說這是一個可能的變局,但是有挑戰有機會,那到底我們結果會怎麼樣也取決於我們自己的作為,這個不是已經決定結果的"},{"start":254.205,"end":261.235,"text":"確實我想各方都開始很重視川普的一言一行這個是我們台灣當然不可能置外其聲可是不代表說我們一定要去用以美論這種方式去談他們民主選出的新總統"},{"start":270.587,"end":295.929,"text":"我想請教就是說我剛才有提到畢竟是兩個不同的一個政黨領導人也都不一樣不可能做法會跟我們像拜登時代是一模一樣他全面接受他的這個對台政策那我剛才提到就是說像我們在21世紀貿易的這個協議這個倡議的話本席有提到說為什麼會問這一題其實跟他過去的態度有關因為川普不是第一次當總統"},{"start":297.21,"end":297.33,"text":"﹚羅美玲議員﹚"},{"start":319.071,"end":336.84,"text":"在上一次他當總統的時候為什麼本席會問說那我們跟拜登政府在簽訂的這些倡議這些協定會不會因為新政府上來了然後有所改變那是因為對應回去他過去在當總統的時候對台灣的一些貿易談判的一些態度"},{"start":338.075,"end":365.701,"text":"是我想對於就是說所謂的簽訂自由貿易協定這個當然是一個大的挑戰不過臺美關係像避免雙重瞌睡這個是互利也很重要要投資美國的配套那據說臺美21世紀貿易創意這樣的一個機制已經進行第一階段First Agreement已經通過了現在只是把最後行政權益完成我們很有信心所以你很有信心說會有所發展但是未來的還沒有"},{"start":367.501,"end":369.962,"text":"今天早上有很多委員提到所謂的晶片法"},{"start":385.606,"end":408.745,"text":"因為川普在10月底接受這個Podcast的節目訪問的時候他有再次的質疑這個晶片法對於這個外國公司的一些補助甚至有學者在推論就是說川普當選之後可能會推翻拜登政府呢他依這個晶片法提供給台積電比如說在亞利桑那州鳳凰鎮他有設廠嘛他有提供66億美元的這個補助部長你認為這個事情會發生嗎"},{"start":413.789,"end":432.876,"text":"因為他會吸引他去投資嘛因為這對美國有利那我想未來是不是就是說在晶片法案未來會有新的法我們當然密切注意那另外一個就是免稅這兩個是他當時去吸引包括台積電事實上去美國投資的一個誘因那"},{"start":434.497,"end":457.717,"text":"因為最重要是說這個成果對美國來講他已經某種程度達到投資美國所以後續怎麼去處理我在談的就是說不要把它變成一個零和的那好他如果沒有去給予這個未來更這個未來進一步的補助那當然這個供應鏈就不是那麼容易在美國嘛"},{"start":458.697,"end":484.159,"text":"他是為他自己的利益補助的不是只是為了說台積電去補助所以這個是我覺得現在隨著就是選舉過後很多事情會沉澱下來那大家很務實的來面對找出共同的基礎我覺得台美關係我很有信心不只是理念相近我們是厲害與共"},{"start":485.08,"end":499.638,"text":"那在這種情形之下台灣要有信心不要再像最近有人操作以美論、以賴論、以軍論一大堆以啦台灣要有自信我們要做我們自己該做要展現決心跟能力來保護我們自己"},{"start":500.239,"end":500.279,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":515.771,"end":517.673,"text":"外交部應該因應不同的情境來做一個政策的一些因應這是我們給予一個外交部一個提醒"},{"start":535.914,"end":554.208,"text":"樂觀當然我們是樂觀當然我們也看到說像川普他過去對於這個安全夥伴關係也好或是盟友這種關係他其實不是那麼的在意跟拜登的這個態度是很差很多那我們可以看到就是說像我們其實有很多一些核心的一些供應鏈這個核心的一些關鍵的技術"},{"start":558.672,"end":566.839,"text":"其實我們很多也是透過這種多邊或雙邊的合作我們站上這個世界的這個舞台甚至拜登政府甚至也有給台灣這個機會那我們剛才一開始我有提到所謂的台灣會變成一個美中這個談判的籌碼或是台灣會不會被邊緣化這是我們所擔心的這個問題"},{"start":577.447,"end":603.032,"text":"因為當然也跟川普的對外關係有很大的這個關係因為他畢竟覺得說這盟友關係、夥伴關係不是那麼重要這他從上一屆的時候我們就有看到所以不同的政府、不同的一些政策、不同的態度那當然我們希望外交部能夠神聖以對樂觀當然是要樂觀可是我們如何去應變這整個政策的這個改變我想這是應該外交部要跟各部會去做通盤的來做討論跟合作的部分"},{"start":605.552,"end":615.746,"text":"尤其我們的這個軟實力我們的供應力如此強如何維持維持繼續維持我們的這競爭優勢我在想這一點是外交部跟各部會應該要來審慎來處理的部分"},{"start":618.397,"end":641.296,"text":"我同意委員,臺美關係歷經很多的階段在現在為止我想川普總統他形成的政府他的主張我們要很重視然後他現在的人事任命我們也密切關注那後續行政跟立法特別是總統跟國會的關係其實他共同形成了一些政策"},{"start":641.716,"end":667.839,"text":"所以美國是一個多元政治一個民主國家所以我們要了解它的一個運作的機制那我想外交部尤其是我們駐美代表處我們其實在選前我們的各種的對情勢的評估我們都有納入今天這種選舉結果所以我們也在第一時間都按照我們原來的規劃在推展中所以我要講的就是說選舉今天跟政黨輪替是民主國家的常態"},{"start":669.461,"end":680.416,"text":"他有很長的名義會增加川普未來對外交更大的一個籌碼這個是事實那他也想不佔了屈人之兵所以他現在講一句話全世界都要聽啊"},{"start":681.941,"end":708.333,"text":"我們對岸的中國也是很注意所以我是覺得我們不要好像是限縮在台灣好像是針對台灣全世界都在看我們要沉著的應處我想說這個是有一些挑戰但是也充滿機會因為這個在變局中台灣的角色怎麼樣能夠自助人助怎麼樣能夠確保我們自己國家的安全"},{"start":708.973,"end":709.133,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":439,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（10時53分）謝謝主席，有請林部長。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，川普即將要重返白宮，部長早上提到，在臺美強健的夥伴關係基礎上面，美國跨黨派對臺灣的支持跟對臺灣的安全承諾都會延續，我也很認同，剛剛部長更是提到，我們要勇敢自信，美國偉大，我們會跟著偉大，可是川普畢竟不是拜登，拜登對臺的政策，川普不可能全面跟隨，對不對？本席在上個月有看到華府智庫布魯金斯研究所資深研究員卜睿哲跟何瑞恩提到，川普當選後，對臺灣的態度會像他對其他的外交議題一樣，難以預測，預期他會以交易的心態來處理臺灣的議題，甚至會要求為美國提供更多的利益，比如增加軍購還有投資等等，這種交易的方式，部長會不會擔心會讓臺灣成為美中談判中的籌碼，他這個心態？我不曉得部長有沒有想法，川普這個部分跟拜登時代對臺灣採取深化經濟關係、加強安全合作，還有提升臺灣國際地位的作法是有很大的不同了。再來我要請教部長，像去年2023年6月，美臺雙方敲定了美臺21世紀貿易倡議的第一份協議，第二份的協議，我們還在談判當中，正在進行當中，那雙方也透過TTIC來支持美國及臺灣企業在5G、電動車、能源、AI，還有半導體等等雙方的貿易。我想請問部長，像這些合作的架構會不會因為新政府的上台而產生變故？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，有關21世紀臺美貿易倡議，第一階段的談判已經確定了，年底前會宣布，完成所有的程序，至於第二階段也在談判中，也相當有進展，當然，因為原來十二個項目裡面，也還有第三階段，所以我們會循序漸進，先確保第一階段如期通過，第二階段的談判，現在也是順利在進行中，21世紀貿易的倡議是分階段的，後面因為川普對於貿易的看法，我們也必須要納入考慮。另外一個是避免雙重課稅，這是比較跨黨派，因應很多要投資美國，其實像G7很多國家跟臺灣都有簽，所以這方面我們會持續努力，看起來也是會獲得一定的支持。其他有關投資美國，因為因應著未來可能晶片法案的執行，新的可能性的發展，我們也密切注意，我們也會增加對美國的投資跟採購，我覺得都要因應，新總統有新的民意，臺美關係要好，一定是要做相應的因應，我們來加強。至於每個總統有他的領導風格，我倒不認為這裡面會涉及難以預測，大家都可以預測得到，因為他讓美國再次偉大的主張很清楚、很具體……"],["羅委員美玲：聽起來部長對川普好像還蠻了解的，我聽早上的質詢，我看你還蠻自信的，你會覺得……"],["林部長佳龍：應該說這是一個可能的變局，但是有挑戰有機會……"],["羅委員美玲：可是可預測？"],["林部長佳龍：到底我們結果會怎麼樣，也取決於我們自己的作為，這個不是已經決定結果的，確實我想各方都開始很重視川普的一言一行，我們臺灣當然不可能置外其身，可是不代表我們一定要去用疑美論這種方式去談他們民主選出的新總統。"],["羅委員美玲：當然，部長，我想請教的就是，我剛才有提到，畢竟這是兩個不同的政黨，領導人也都不一樣，不可能作法會跟上一屆拜登時代是一模一樣，他全面接受他的對臺政策，我剛才提到像我們現在21世紀貿易的這個倡議，本席為什麼會問這一題，其實跟他過去的態度有關，因為川普不是第一次當總統，之前就當總統，最近他對臺灣的這個貿易談判是怎麼樣的狀況？我們所知道美國跟臺灣的貿易談判，在川普期間是完全是被擱置的，部長應該可以理解，然後不管是在任何形式投資的協議，或是自由貿易協定，或是要把臺灣納入任何更廣泛的貿易架構等等，其實我們是沒有任何進展的，在上一次他當總統的時候。為什麼本席會問我們跟拜登政府在簽訂的這些倡議、這些協定會不會因為新政府上來而有所改變？那是因為對應回去他過去在當總統的時候，對臺灣一些貿易談判的態度。"],["林部長佳龍：是，我想對於所謂的簽訂自由貿易協定，當然是一個大的挑戰，不過臺美關係像避免雙重課稅，這個是互利，也是很重要要投資美國的配套，至於臺美21世紀貿易倡議這樣的一個機制，已經進行第一階段，first agreement已經通過了，現在只是把最後行政程序完成，我們很有信心。"],["羅委員美玲：所以你很有信心會有所……"],["林部長佳龍：但是未來還沒有……因為這是雙方面簽署，我們當然要很努力啊！不然的話，確實川普總統在這方面是比較保守的。"],["羅委員美玲：是。還有一點，今天早上也很多委員提到所謂的晶片法，因為川普在10月底接受Podcast節目訪問的時候，他有再次的質疑晶片法對於外國公司的一些補助，甚至有學者推論，川普當選之後，可能會推翻拜登政府依晶片法提供給台積電，比如在亞利桑那州鳳凰城有設廠，他有提供66億美元的補助。部長，你認為這個事情會發生嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這會吸引他去投資，因為這對美國有利，我想是不是晶片法案未來會有新的法，我們當然密切注意，另外一個就是免稅，這兩個是他當時吸引包括台積電去美國投資的誘因，最重要的是這個成果對美國來講，它已經某種程度達到投資美國，所以後續怎麼去處理？我在談的就是不要把它變成一個零和的……"],["羅委員美玲：可是他對補助可能很有意見？"],["林部長佳龍：他如果沒有給予未來進一步的補助，當然這個供應鏈就不是那麼容易在美國嘛！他是為他自己的利益補助的，不是只是為了台積電去補助，所以我覺得現在隨著選舉過後，很多事情會沉澱下來，大家很務實的來面對，找出共同的基礎。我覺得臺美關係我很有信心，不只是理念相近，我們是利害與共，在這種情形之下，臺灣要有信心，不要再像最近有人操作疑美論、疑賴論、疑軍論，一大堆疑啦！臺灣要有自信，我們要做我們自己該做的，要展現決心跟能力來保護我們自己，這個時候他們的目的，就是他看到不管是臺灣這方面，我們是做一個夥伴，那就是要真正是一個夥伴的關係，這一點我跟委員報告，國人要關心，但不必過於擔心。"],["羅委員美玲：是，我們要有自信，部長也一直在喊話，當然我們希望的是，像我們現在是面對一個不同情境的狀況，所以外交部應該針對不同的情境來做政策的一些因應，這是我們給予外交部的提醒。樂觀，當然我們是樂觀，但我們也看到像川普過去對於安全夥伴關係也好，或者是盟友這種關係，他其實不是那麼的在意，跟拜登的態度是差很多，我們可以看到像我們其實有很多核心的供應鏈、核心的一些關鍵的技術，其實我們很多也是透過這種多邊或雙邊的合作，站上世界的舞臺，甚至拜登政府也有給臺灣這個機會。剛才一開始我有提到臺灣會變成美中談判的一個籌碼，或是臺灣會不會被邊緣化，這是我們所擔心的問題，當然也跟川普的對外關係有很大的關係，因為他畢竟覺得盟友關係、夥伴關係不是那麼重要，這是他從上一屆的時候，我們就有看到。所以不同的政府、不同的一些政策、不同的態度，當然我們希望外交部能夠審慎以對。樂觀，當然是要樂觀，可是我們如何去應變，因應這整個政策的改變，我想這應該是外交部要跟各部會通盤的來做討論跟合作的部分，尤其我們的軟實力、我們的供應鏈如此強，如何繼續維持我們的競爭優勢？我想這一點是外交部跟各部會應該要審慎處理的。"],["林部長佳龍：是，我同意委員，臺美關係歷經很多的階段，在現在為止，我想川普總統形成的政府，他的主張我們要很重視，他現在的人事任命，我們也密切關注，後續行政跟立法，特別是總統跟國會的關係，其實共同形成了一些政策，所以美國是一個多元政治的民主國家，我們要了解他運作的機制，我想外交部，尤其是我們駐美代表處，其實在選前，我們各種對情勢的評估，都有納入今天這種選舉結果，所以我們也在第一時間都按照我們原來的規劃在推展中。所以我要講的是，選舉競爭跟政黨輪替是民主國家的常態，他有很強的民意會增加川普未來對外交更大的一個籌碼，這個是事實，他也想不戰而屈人之兵，所以他現在講一句話，全世界都要聽，我們對岸的中國也是很注意，所以我是覺得我們不要好像只限縮在臺灣，好像是針對臺灣，不是！"],["羅委員美玲：是，沒錯！全世界都在看，這個也是沒錯……"],["林部長佳龍：我們應該沉著應處，我想這個是有一些挑戰，但是也充滿機會，因為在這個變局中，臺灣的角色怎麼樣能夠自助人助？怎麼樣能夠確保我們自己國家的安全跟利益，在一個未來可能更變動的局勢當中能夠處理好對美的關係？外交部在這方面，一定會做非常審慎的評估跟應處，確保我們臺灣最大的利益。"],["羅委員美玲：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員，林部長請回。","接下來我們請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054f9fc7b366c79685713be6769c271087bdf3ad428b0eec556ec2d40718126b8875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:06:36 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顯赫外交部臺灣美國事務委員會的執政委員喔這太大了這行政院經貿談判的代表但是我覺得你在講話沒實在"},{"start":233.214,"end":250.603,"text":"如果我們要加入CPTPP第一個要有公司權才能進入它那個工作小組但是你台灣有成立工作小組有沒有幾個單位有沒有常常開會你告訴我我就知道有沒有"},{"start":253.561,"end":276.359,"text":"我現在跟你講那裏面好幾個國家你要去分析我是不要別人啦我看你在說的吞吞吐吐我看你的眼神我有跟他們聯絡就有聯絡連日本說盤肉堅實的友邦我們就沒辦法人說新加坡你也沒辦法人說澳洲也沒辦法人說馬來西亞你也沒辦法人說"},{"start":278.667,"end":293.092,"text":"那個比較那邊的國家我就不講了所以你們要他進來不進來我實在講你們一鼓起人會進來遙遙無期因為這裡面有很多政治的角力你們都不敢講"},{"start":294.892,"end":318.304,"text":"也跟議中的政策都有關心你們真的是官員的話有擔當把這個困難講出來讓大家曉得嗎大家在某某乎乎我曉得你們這樣的態度我就不要那麼激情我也不會被關也不會被起訴真的是無妄自在很憐慌我先跟你們提了這一點第二點關於川普當選"},{"start":321.488,"end":338.142,"text":"你要記得張忠謀在他運動大會講了兩句一句話自由貿易已死自由貿易已死地緣政治很重要那現在官貿帝國的川普商業要全部加稅我覺得對台灣我們實在應該處變不清"},{"start":342.366,"end":361.647,"text":"兵來將擋,誰來處冤?在於那裡但是你要發掘到現在的選舉有兩派的實力跟臺灣高科技有關係一個是比爾蓋茲的勢力一個是馬斯克的實力我不知道你怎麼看先去研究一下那整個策略戰法"},{"start":362.668,"end":383.603,"text":"我是覺得臺灣有它本身的條件羊毛吃在羊身上只要我們實力夠堅強我們的高科技裡面沒有關係你要怎麼來怎麼來但是那個那個元夫啊我們部長有一個他常常在講的政內關外關外政內你解釋一下"},{"start":387.847,"end":409.348,"text":"你要瞭解臺灣的經濟政策你才能講出來不是我看他有瞭解你嗎他的將內將外你跟我解釋一下你不懂好那個謝謝委員的問題我試著來說明我的理解試著不是馬上就解釋"},{"start":412.146,"end":436.996,"text":"經內關外我們就是希望我們可以把我們就是前幾百大的這些產業可以拉進來台灣那基本上我們不會去限定他一定要有特別的關稅區而是希望這些強大的投資的產業會進到台灣來跟台灣互相的交流部長我覺得你的idea理想很豐滿現實很骨感"},{"start":439.827,"end":451.482,"text":"你要知道你經濟部投資臺灣方案什麼回來方案三大方案裡面南臺灣、臺灣在裡面那我剛剛聽了一個質詢我覺得很重要勢必要講"},{"start":455.828,"end":475.84,"text":"我以為你是把臺灣這些關於高科技企業產業放在台積電的附近你要把它工廠過去任何一個產品我跟你講你有拉了整個台積電還有KOWAS的封裝跟測試其他的產業你要拉過去"},{"start":476.929,"end":495.242,"text":"那生產的效力沒有啊你把台灣的產業拉過去台灣這邊空這樣我這邊要開台灣開一家工廠日本要開一家工廠歐洲要開一家工廠美國要開一家工廠不能這樣早才我們台灣的這要起了架了你那個企業出來我想說你這個倉庫的原來你要開工廠"},{"start":501.189,"end":527.925,"text":"不要這樣,我告訴你生產規模要大才有競爭力啦到時開工廠到時虧錢啦到國外沒有保障的啦報告委員,你所這個指導的是非常正確我們企不會一下就開工廠沒有經濟規模絕對不會出我們的企業、企業料資我告訴你你有經濟規模我出處理的都一定會參與你如果開了台灣的"},{"start":530.417,"end":557.613,"text":"IG產業、電子產業整個帶過去的話我跟你講是一個風險地緣政治我保護我保護澳門誰來保護我們台灣變成什麼人家餐桌上的菜單我跟你說我發覺台灣一點自主能力沒有怎麼不會搖擺一下等一下我靠大陸等一下我靠美國你台灣就有對話我不曉得這個政治這個樣子的話"},{"start":561.841,"end":582.06,"text":"實在很感嘆,不要把臺灣玩完了,臺灣人真的很努力,有情務的精神。關於川普當選,免驚免驚,反正肚臟都斜蓋一樣的情形,我們只要成走應對就好,就看你了。"},{"start":584.642,"end":594.26,"text":"我覺得多邊貿易很難了你要雙邊貿易趕快去完成尤其在中南亞我們只要的主力在這個地方好不好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時6分）謝謝主席，首先有請經濟部郭部長及經貿談判辦公室顏副總。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長及顏副總談判代表。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好！"],["陳委員超明：部長好！針對臺灣加入CPTPP這個議題，過去我總質詢一共問過5次，在委員會的質詢問過14次，加入CPTPP及洽簽自由貿易協定，對臺灣尤其傳統產業的影響非常大，所以我非常關注。","本席在108年剛好有一個機會得到一個消息──日本邀請中國大陸加入CPTPP，但是那時候我跟執政黨（也就是民進黨）執政的政府報告，卻是言者諄諄、聽者藐藐，我發覺行政部門都沒有放在心上，結果在110年9月16日中國大陸真的提出申請加入CPTPP，我們臺灣在9月20日才馬上跟進提出申請，我為什麼要特別說這個？因為我非常關注CPTPP，但是我是受災戶，這個情形是怎樣？當初新加坡有人來請託一件事情，剛好裡面有一個成員是新加坡貿易談判副代表，他來請託我的是關於SOGO案，那個公司法第九條，我從來沒有碰觸，他來請我開委員會的公聽會，我也拒絕了，但是我在拒絕他、跟他聊天的時候，那一年剛好是新加坡當輪值主席，我就問他，我們臺灣加入CPTPP到底怎麼樣？他說日本在邀請中國大陸來參加，我說沒有邀請臺灣？他跟我講，我們臺灣自己要努力。就是因為欠了這個人情，我打了一次電話拜託一個公聽會，我只打給部長3分鐘，他沒接也沒聽，我打給你們國會聯絡組一下，就結束這樣的事情，結果我被關了4個半月，這個司法制度完全亂了，人我都不認識，我真的是受災戶！所以我今天為什麼對CPTPP大概都能瞭解。但是我剛剛看到你們在回答質詢的時候，顏副總談判代表，你口才很好，邏輯也非常好，我發覺你的地位很顯赫，外交部臺灣美國事務委員會的主任委員，這很大耶，又是行政院經貿談判的代表，但是我覺得你講話不實在。如果我們要加入CPTPP，第一個要有共識決，才能進入它的工作小組，但是臺灣有成立工作小組嗎？有沒有？幾個單位？有沒有常常開會？你跟我說一下我就知道有沒有。那裡面好幾個國家，你要去分析，我是不想逼你們，我看你講話時吞吞吐吐，我看你的眼神，說有跟他們聯絡就有聯絡，連日本是我們堅若磐石的友邦，我們都沒辦法跟他們講，新加坡你也沒辦法跟他講，澳洲也沒辦法跟他講，馬來西亞你也沒辦法跟他講，比較那邊的國家我就不講，所以你們要不要它進來？你們預估幾年會進來？遙遙無期，因為這裡面有很多政治的角力，你們都不敢講，跟一中的政策都有關係，你們當官員有擔當的話，把這個困難講出來讓大家曉得嘛！大家在模模糊糊，如果我曉得你們這樣的態度，我就不要那麼積極，我也不會被關，也不會被歧視，真的是無妄之災，我先跟你們提到這一點。","第二點，關於川普當選，你要記得張忠謀在運動大會上講了一句話，自由貿易已死，地緣政治很重要。現在關貿帝國的川普上任要全部加稅，我覺得臺灣應該處變不驚，兵來將擋，水來土掩，就隨他去，但是你要發覺到現在的選舉有兩派勢力跟臺灣高科技有關係，一個是比爾蓋茲的勢力，一個是馬斯克的勢力，我不知道你們怎麼看，稍微去研究一下。整個策略戰法，我是覺得臺灣有本身的條件，羊毛出在羊身上，只要我們實力夠堅強，對我們的高科技來說，沒有關係，你要怎麼來就怎麼來。但是顏副，有一個部長常常在講的「境內關外」、「關內境外」，你解釋一下，你要了解臺灣的經濟政策你才能講出來。部長，我看他有沒有了解你。部長說的「境內關外」、「關內境外」，你跟我解釋一下。你不懂？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員的問題，我試著來說明我的理解，「境內關外」就是希望我們可以把前幾百大的這些產業拉進來臺灣，基本上我們不會去限定它一定要有特別的關稅區，而是希望這一些強大的投資產業會進到臺灣來，跟臺灣互相的交流。"],["陳委員超明：部長，我覺得你的理想很豐滿，現實很骨感，你要知道，經濟部的投資臺灣方案、臺商回臺方案等三大方案，臺灣花了多少錢在其中，我剛剛聽了一個質詢，我覺得很重要，勢必要講，我以為你是把臺灣這些關於高科技的產業放在台積電的附近，你要把那些工廠拉過去，你拉了台積電還有CoWoS的封裝跟測試，但是其他的產業你要拉過去，那裡沒有生產的效率，你把臺灣的產業拉過去，臺灣這邊空了，他們要在臺灣這邊開一家工廠，日本要開一家工廠，歐洲要開一家工廠，美國要開一家工廠，不要這樣糟蹋我們臺灣的這些企業家，你是業界出身，我以為你是要開倉庫，原來你要開工廠，不要這樣，我跟你講，生產規模要大才有競爭力，到處開工廠到處虧錢，到國外沒有保障的啦！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你所指導的非常正確，我們去不會一下就開工廠，沒有經濟規模絕對不會帶我們的企業去那邊賠錢，我帶出去的都一定會賺錢。"],["陳委員超明：你把臺灣IC產業、電子產業整個帶過去的話是一個風險，他們對於地緣政治風險要求保護，那誰來保護我們？我們臺灣變成人家餐桌上的菜單，我發覺臺灣一點自主能力都沒有，怎麼不會搖擺一下，一下我靠大陸，一下我靠美國，如此臺灣就有地位，我不曉得政治這個樣子的話，實在很感嘆，不要把臺灣玩完了，臺灣人真的很努力，有勤奮的精神。","關於川普當選，不用怕，反正全世界都遇到一樣的情形，我們只要沉著應對就好，就看你們，但是我覺得多邊貿易很難了，你要雙邊貿易趕快去完成，尤其在東南亞，我們主要的主力在這個地方，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員語重心長，發人深省，令人敬佩。","下一位質詢請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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是查獲的案件 是那"},{"start":157.83,"end":165.26,"text":"有沒有人次的數字人次是2207人對 這數字光是這105天之內就這麼的高我幫你換算一下平均一天等於是17件所以你不能只有專案期間10月14號之後我們目前還有沒有持續在統計"},{"start":174.697,"end":198.187,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們現在是我們一個查緝的重點我們除了專門查緝現在在安基專我們也是列為一個重點的一個查緝工作好你們這個查緝的情形還是要持續來統計數字我們才會知道說他是攀升還是我們的查緝作為是有效在減緩的但我看到一個案件8月的時候也是我們警政署破獲的"},{"start":199.387,"end":199.407,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":219.605,"end":219.925,"text":"這個案子最主要我想"},{"start":238.038,"end":239.339,"text":"所以他有自己的網站嗎?當時有沒有去封網?"},{"start":255.342,"end":272.969,"text":"有去從這個偵查的程序上去做,然後在藍組...偵查當中就先封網了嗎?因為這個網後查出來這個是在大陸那要這個網易要斷解,目前我們在行這個司法程序來辦理那這個案子我們能夠查留三個...所以當時查器當中有沒有封網?封網要有一定的...來,書發部可不可以回答?"},{"start":280.54,"end":286.288,"text":"我剛講的8月這一案喔已經移送的這一案喔當時有沒有封網請用麥克風"},{"start":291.042,"end":317.004,"text":"到目前為止我們沒有接到這部分的封網不過基本上這部分它可能有涉及到幾個問題可以去協助處理的第一個就是各平台有社群守則這不是平台這個是網站對 有的是網站我現在講的就是這一個單獨網站基本上這個還是要回到法律的程序他們現在已經進行法律程序去處理了以上報告"},{"start":317.845,"end":327.914,"text":"好 這個呢 如果是按照我們的兒照性剝削的也是一樣 跟平台、速發部你們有一個流程嘛在查緝辦案當中 因為他已經違法這是三級毒品啊 署長 辦案當中就應該要封網所以如果說我現在請教速發部 如果法務部寫一個文給你們 你們可不可以封網"},{"start":338.523,"end":355.736,"text":"報告委員是這樣子﹖目前所有﹖你們可以請網路資訊中心來處理嗎?基本上現在所有﹖你先凍結他的網域嗎?可不可以?基本上我沒辦法凍結他的網域﹖因為TW應該只能處理點TW份那至於您提的﹖對我講的就是點TW﹖這個不是點TW﹖假設是的話﹖假設是的話我們其實可以立刻"},{"start":355.776,"end":357.657,"text":"現在這個署長我告訴你剛剛我講了這個8月的案件他的網站到現在為止還在網路上"},{"start":378.82,"end":384.465,"text":"而且他強調說人家賣到有品牌了強調說他才是正版的千萬不能去買其他品牌的然後他強調什麼呢24小時之內我就給你送達所以啊這個一定要去封網你封網你們現在還需要研擬什麼樣的機制來跟我們討論你們剛剛講到了嘛署長新興這個我們講的這個新興毒品不只是三級我們有沒有在研擬來把它提升成二級"},{"start":406.598,"end":435.128,"text":"他已經太放爛了嘛上司煙彈這一個我們有在研擬從三級提到二級有沒有在研擬誰可以回答跟委員報告這個毒品的審議在法務部是8月份行政院公告你的麥克風請靠近一點8月份行政院公告伊托米子為三級毒品但是我們發現社會的這個泛濫性危害性蠻大的所以我們在10月21號就發公允給各機關再收集資料是"},{"start":436.248,"end":459.98,"text":"11月14號我們將會召開獨省審議委員會準備來這個審議這個伊東米子要不要把它列為二級獨品那除了伊東米子之外因為它有周邊的類似的獨品就是美東米子跟伊東帕子也會同時在11月14號就下禮拜會做一個全面性檢討要不要把它升級為"},{"start":460.88,"end":476.107,"text":"多病的管制從三級升到二級三級的最低程度是七年以上二級是十年以上你要評估不是隨便評估嘛一定是你們發現它有所影響主要指標社會安全危害性以及它的氾濫性"},{"start":477.725,"end":481.287,"text":"倘若這個問題確實是我們現在這麼嚴重的社會問題的話封網啊你這個網站民眾隨手可得隨時可以買更不用說我們的青少年剛剛討論那麼多你這個溯源沒有處理沒有辦法來根本的斷絕所以我希望法務部、警政署、速發部趕快我們來討論出一個流程一旦我們警政署我們的這個情勢警察局發現有這樣的網站的時候趕快去封網啊"},{"start":506.961,"end":507.182,"text":"請教育部部長"},{"start":528.581,"end":531.983,"text":"部長我想要跟您關心的是10月的時候有個報導指出我們臺北醫學大學有一名消性的教師他是性騷擾的慣伴並且也經過學校的性評的調查也確實屬實那這個教師目前是已經被解聘了不過我們去回顧他的流程因為這個老師呢不只是在學校任職他同時也是我們國科會研究計畫的主持人及共同主持人"},{"start":555.276,"end":556.219,"text":"這個案件是在去年12月的時候北一的性評會就已經調查確認有性評案件了"},{"start":564.508,"end":590.45,"text":"所以按照我們目前國科會的法規有性平違反性平法規的人就不得擔任國科會的計畫主持人可是呢這個老師去年學校已經調查出有性平案件結果他同樣繼續去年國科會的計畫還繼續的主持不只是去年主持到今年7月還在主持然後呢今年學校還讓他去申請新的國科會研究計畫"},{"start":592.637,"end":596.067,"text":"部長有沒有了解過這個案件?我看到了報導"},{"start":598.464,"end":603.025,"text":"這個不能只有看到報導我認為這個問題相當的嚴重因為我們確實已經調查有性平案件了那你解聘需要一定的程序我們也要給老師他既有的這個權益是要的你這個程序一定是需要時間可是他應該在調查屬實的當下就應該要立即通報國科會去解除他國科會研究計畫主持人的身份是不是這個樣子"},{"start":626.269,"end":630.011,"text":"是嘛 有點頭但是當時學校卻沒有做學校沒有通報國科會還讓老師又去申請新的計畫計畫主持人有計畫研究助理有相關的團隊因為這個性平安禁他不是一案而已他是多個人來檢舉喔所以你們讓他在這麼長的時間裡面有這麼多有更多的機會可以來接觸對 所以我請教育部"},{"start":651.144,"end":669.307,"text":"來去了解整個時間序列按照我對法官的了解應當是在去年的12月北一的性平案件調查組織出來的時候就立刻要解除他國科會主持人的身份而且不可能讓他再去申請新的案件請教育部來進行了解並且把這個過程讓我知道好不好我們來了解然後這個我們要責成這個學校一定要務必要檢討改進"},{"start":677.589,"end":685.158,"text":"是 這個國科會是負責計畫的審查但是教育部是我們學校裡面性平安全的守護者要請你們嚴格來把關好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時1分）謝謝主席，我請法務部、警政署、數發部。"],["主席：好，法務部、警政署、數發部。"],["郭司長永發：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：今天我們的專案報告是電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制相關作為的檢討，涉及到很多的部會，剛剛前面的質詢很多都提到了，目前青少年使用電子煙的情形相當地氾濫，根據我們的法規，電子煙是屬於類菸品，屬於菸害防制法，目前是行政罰則，但是其中我特別關注的就是電子煙含毒品、電子煙油摻入毒品，這個就是屬於毒品危害防制條例，主管機關也就是法務部，我想這是目前一個非常重要的新興毒品緝查的重點。面對這種新興毒品的緝查，一個是要向上溯源，一個是要向下斷根，對不對？"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：尤其是前陣子，我看到甚至有在協助緝查的員警，因為有民眾使用了我們剛剛講的喪屍煙彈，也就是依托咪酯，目前是列管為三級毒品，又毒後駕駛，導致員警在緝查當中不幸殉職，也有民眾是因為其他人毒後駕駛而被撞死，所以我覺得這對我們社會危害性相當之高。我看警政署10月在衛環委員會也有做過專案報告，想請問一下，目前你們針對喪屍煙彈的緝查情形有沒有一個初步的結果？"],["陳副局長炯旭：謝謝委員，事實上在喪屍煙彈還沒被列為三級毒品的時候，我們就開始做查緝了，從7月1日到10月14日，我們查獲的喪屍煙毒案有1,828件。"],["吳委員沛憶：這是查獲的？"],["陳副局長炯旭：對，是查獲的案件。"],["吳委員沛憶：有沒有人次的數字？"],["陳副局長炯旭：人次是2,207人。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，光是這105天之內數字就這麼高，我幫你換算一下，平均一天等於是17件，所以你不能只有專案期間，10月14日之後你們還有沒有持續在統計？"],["陳副局長炯旭：跟委員報告，事實上這個現在是我們一個查緝的重點，我們除了專案查緝外，現在的安居專案，我們也是列為一個重點的查緝工作。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，你們這個查緝的情形還是要持續來統計數字，我們才會知道它是攀升，還是我們的查緝作為是有效讓它減緩的。"],["陳副局長炯旭：會。"],["吳委員沛憶：我看到一個案件，8月的時候，也是警政署破獲的，他是集團式地在販售喪屍煙彈，光是這一案，你們查獲的數量高達1萬5,000顆，黑市的價格高達3,000萬，所以這個明顯地就是集團式地在販毒，然後賣到怎麼樣呢？賣到有自己的商標跟品牌。當時他販售的重要管道就是他們自己的網站，等於是違法的販毒網站，這個案件有沒有人可以說明一下？你們破獲這個集團式的經營，結果你們移送了幾個人？"],["陳副局長炯旭：這個案子最主要的是，我們在整個緝毒的工作上，網路巡查還是我們一個很重要的工作，這個案子是我們同仁在網路巡查上發現……"],["吳委員沛憶：網路上找到的？"],["陳副局長炯旭：對，然後我們就進行了相對的偵查。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以他有自己的網站嗎？"],["陳副局長炯旭：有他的網站，我們是從網站……"],["吳委員沛憶：當時有沒有去封網？"],["陳副局長炯旭：有從偵查程序上去做，然後再攔截到……"],["吳委員沛憶：偵查當中就先封網了，不需要等到判決結果，對不對？"],["陳副局長炯旭：因為這個網站後來查出來是在大陸，這個網域要斷絕，目前我們在循司法程序來辦理，這個案子我們……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以當時查緝當中有沒有封網？"],["陳副局長炯旭：封網要有一定的……"],["吳委員沛憶：來，數發部可不可以回答？就是我剛剛講的8月這一案、已經移送的這一案喔！當時有沒有封網？"],["牛司長信仁：到目前為止我們沒有接到這部分封網的請求，不過基本上這部分它可能有涉及到幾個問題可以去協助處理的，第一個大概就是各平臺有社群守則，可以用社群守則……"],["吳委員沛憶：這不是平臺，這個是網站。"],["牛司長信仁：對，有的是網站，有的是……"],["吳委員沛憶：我現在講的就是這一個販毒網站。"],["牛司長信仁：第二個，基本上這個還是要回到剛剛副局長談到的，還是要回到法律的程序，他們現在已經進行法律程序去處理，以上報告。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個如果是按照兒少性剝削的，也是一樣跟平臺，數發部你們有一個流程，在查緝辦案當中，因為他已經違法了，這個是三級毒品，辦案當中就應該要封網。所以我現在請教數發部，如果法務部行一個文給你們，你們可不可以封網？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，目前……"],["吳委員沛憶：你們可以請網路資訊中心來處理嘛？你先凍結它的網域嘛！可不可以？"],["牛司長信仁：基本上我沒辦法凍結它的網域，因為tw的只能處理「.tw」部分，至於您提的……"],["吳委員沛憶：對，我講的就是「.tw」這個網址。"],["牛司長信仁：它這個不是「.tw」。"],["吳委員沛憶：假設是的話。"],["牛司長信仁：假設是的話，我們其實可以立刻處理，但是如果不是「.tw」的部分，那就回到RPZ的機制，RPZ的機制目前比如說兒童及少年性剝削防制條例，這些都已經有訂所謂的停止解析的條文在裡頭，以上。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，副局長，我告訴你，剛剛我講的這個8月的案件，它的網站到現在為止還在網路上，而且還賣到有品牌了，還強調說它才是正版的，千萬不能去買其他品牌的，然後它還強調什麼？強調24小時之內就可以送達。所以一定要去封網，你現在封網還需要研擬什麼樣的機制，來跟我們討論。你們剛剛講到了，我們講的這個新興毒品不只是三級，你們有沒有在研擬把它提升成二級？它已經太氾濫了嘛！針對喪失煙彈，你們有沒有在研擬從三級提到二級？誰可以回答？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，毒品的審議在法務部，8月份行政院公告依托咪酯為三級毒品，但是我們發現社會的氾濫性及危害性滿大的，所以我們在10月21日就發公文給各機關在蒐集資料，11月14日我們將會召開毒品審議委員會，準備來審議要不要把依托咪酯列為二級毒品。除了依托咪酯之外，因為它有周邊類似的毒品，就是美托咪酯和異丙帕酯，也會同時在11月14日下禮拜做一個全面性的檢討，看要不要把它升級為二級毒品。"],["吳委員沛憶：毒品的管制從三級升到二級，三級的最低刑度是七年以上，二級是十年以上，你要評估不是隨便評估嘛！一定是你們發現它有所影響，主要的指標是社會安全危害性以及它的氾濫性，倘若這個問題確實是現在這麼嚴重的社會問題的話，就封網嘛！這個網站民眾隨手可得，隨時可以買，更不用說我們的青少年，剛剛討論了那麼多，你這個溯源沒有處理，沒有辦法來根本地斷絕。所以我希望法務部、警政署、數發部趕快來討論出一個流程，一旦警政署刑事警察局發現有這樣的網站，就趕快去封網，趕快封再說！否則等你列為要升級了，沒有用，網站還在，都買得到，而且24小時內就送達了。所以這個問題請趕快來處理，後續再跟你們進行討論。","各位請回，接下來我請教育部。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，我想要跟您關心的是，10月的時候有個報導指出，臺北醫學大學有一名蕭姓教師，他是性騷擾的慣犯，並且也經過學校的性平調查，也確實屬實，這個教師目前是已經被解聘了，不過我們去回顧他的流程，因為這個老師不只是在學校任職，他同時也是國科會研究計畫的主持人及共同主持人。這個案件是在去年12月北醫的性評會就已經調查，確認有性平案件了。按照目前國科會的法規，有違反性平法規的人就不得擔任國科會的計畫主持人，可是去年學校已經調查出這個老師有性平案件，結果去年國科會的計畫，他還同樣繼續主持，不只是去年主持，到今年7月還在主持，今年學校還讓他申請新的國科會研究計畫。部長有沒有了解過這個案件？"],["鄭部長英耀：我看到了報導。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個不能只有看到報導，我認為這個問題相當嚴重，因為調查確實已經有性平案件了，雖然解聘需要一定的程序，也要給老師既有的權益，這個程序一定需要時間，可是應該在調查屬實的當下，就要立即通報國科會，解除他國科會研究計畫主持人的身分，是不是這個樣子？是嘛！有點頭。當時學校卻沒有通報國科會，還讓老師又去申請新的計畫，計畫主持人有計畫研究助理、有相關的團隊，因為這個性平案件不是一案而已，而是多個人來檢舉，所以你們讓他在這麼長的時間裡面有更多的機會可以來接觸……"],["鄭部長英耀：學校已經做了處分。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，所以我請教育部去了解整個時間序列。按照我對法規的了解，應當在去年12月北醫的性平案件調查屬實的時候，就要立刻解除他國科會主持人的身分，而且不可能讓他再去申請新的案件。請教育部進行了解，並且把這個過程讓我知道，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：針對行政上的一些疏漏，我們來了解，我們要責成這個學校務必檢討改進。"],["吳委員沛憶：國科會負責計畫的審查，但教育部是學校裡面性平安全的守護者，要請你們嚴格來把關。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳沛憶委員。","接下來有請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054084ce747a52dfb4f13be6769c271087bdf3ad428b0eec5565e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:57:17 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部長"},{"start":68.08,"end":77.367,"text":"應該是三年三年了還沒有正式的進入也沒辦法做一個工作小組那這個原因你知道嗎"},{"start":78.584,"end":106.148,"text":"因為他們之前都在審議這個因素審議了3年部長12個會員國我們是屬於共識決的嘛對不對他要不要共識12個會員國都要同意那現在的話我們看到3年過去了我們還是沒有那但是我們是出國導向的經濟模式那現在我們碰到的瓶頸就是未來我們要如何去解決我們這個經濟全球經濟的這個模式呢"},{"start":107.711,"end":112.562,"text":"我們能積極地,我想再努力的談判辦公室主導這一個"},{"start":115.186,"end":140.454,"text":"這件任務那其他的包括我們經濟部包括其他相關部門外交部等等都很努力在跟這個所謂的會員國因為是共識決所以我們都跟會員國在利用各種國際的這個場域那大家彼此在能夠是部長你講的我們都做了我們經貿代表在那邊我們都做了做了三年了"},{"start":141.257,"end":155.674,"text":"哪裏不足?哪個國家反對?沒有!早要聽你講話大家都非常歡迎我們進入在非常歡迎、沒有阻礙、沒有困難的情況之下三年又過去了你有看到我們的前途光景嗎?"},{"start":156.855,"end":181.574,"text":"未來大概什麼時候會被審核正式進入呢?至少讓我們可以工作小組有的話工作小組就會組成啊還是沒有那尤其日本你看我們開放了那個福島核災的食品進來了我們也都都已經妥協了讓國人的健康的疑慮我們也都做到了這些我們都吃了"},{"start":182.831,"end":210.526,"text":"國人不該吃的也就吃了這種情況之下難道美國沒有幫我們背書一下嗎?像日本也可以幫我們背書一下嗎?都沒有嗎?雖然說我們當時的這個TPP是美國它現在不是CPTPP的會員國但是有美國的背書也就不一樣啦所以你看來自於進口啦我們還要怎麼做才能夠順利進入報告委員這個可能跟美國沒有關係因為美國已經退出了"},{"start":211.365,"end":220.009,"text":"推出拜登的時候他也沒有加入現在又是川普上來我想美國會進入CPTPP應該是"},{"start":224.226,"end":247.165,"text":"不會了啦,因為他是退出的他是我們全球的大國他有跟很多國家有一些貿易的協議嘛所以他如果跟我們背書對我們是有幫助的對不對那好,那部長沒關係,我就請我們原副總他因為他退出的國家幫我們背書這個在邏輯上面可能會有一點比較勉強啦多多幫我們疏通啦,把我們的障礙給移除掉他都退出了,他要幫我們疏通也給我們幫忙啊"},{"start":250.288,"end":252.871,"text":"我們是不是我們12國叫我們都尋求幫忙阿那我請教一下那日本為什麼還沒有跟我們這個非正式的幫我們簽訂這個談這個貿易協定的協商呢"},{"start":263.7,"end":280.835,"text":"日本我們都有在努力啦那為什麼還沒有日本是一個比較韓他跟我們關係不是很好嗎為什麼還沒有因為我們通過就像剛才委員你所垂詢的這個福島的這個海產我們也是最近才開放的"},{"start":282.017,"end":302.253,"text":"開放很久了沒有今年喔今年開放 今年已經11月了但是我們三年過程都沒有過所以我們也跟他日本跟我們非常友好嘛所以我們是不是要準備跟他來做這個貿易的協商我們跟日本的貿易也是非常穩健的在進行有進行有談嗎我們的副總代表"},{"start":310.357,"end":329.969,"text":"謝謝委員我們實際上跟所有的這個CPTPP的國家都有透過多邊、雙邊包括iPad我請問日本有沒有進行非正式的貿易協商我們要講的所謂的非正式貿易協商對日本有沒有我們當然有有那現在為什麼還沒進行"},{"start":333.735,"end":359.411,"text":"我們有進行跟他們做在其他的管道上面的一個...為什麼其他管道?不能正式嗎?非正式嗎?的貿易協商?所有的現代的接觸都是非正式的所以跟日本有談?談好了嗎?我們跟所有的CPTPP國家...日本有沒有?你不要...我在問你日本日本是CPTPP國家其中一位,對所以有非正式的貿易協商了?談好了?有接觸過那談了怎麼樣?"},{"start":362.009,"end":383.911,"text":"基本上這個就是在增進他們對我們的瞭解然後確保我們確實有我跟日本人這麼友好這麼熟了這個他們的福島核災食品我們也吃了那還有什麼沒有做到的還要怎麼樣還有什麼困難你談的結果有什麼困難在這一點有什麼困難還要我們做什麼還要我們妥協什麼"},{"start":386.071,"end":411.318,"text":"跟委員報告就是這些議題基本上日本他完全認為我們是符合高標準也是有良好記錄的都符合對都符合了現在有什麼困難我想我們的唯一的挑戰只是共識決這個部分他請我們要去努力跟各個會員國溝通所以我的意思說要先進行非正式貿易協商嘛對不對所以好部長"},{"start":412.54,"end":438.185,"text":"我們現在看到的就是我們都做了一些努力那但是大家都想目前我們跟大陸的關係不太好那所有當然會員國對大陸有所忌憚所以這個雙邊關係之下就沒有辦法來支持我們台灣但是只要一個會員國反對我們就沒辦法進入那我們跟大陸一起申請這個CPTPP是差不多的時間"},{"start":441.335,"end":446.759,"text":"如果說大陸這邊還一直有打壓的情況之下我們就會很困難是不是應該是這樣的吧"},{"start":450.473,"end":474.009,"text":"應該就如同委員所垂詢的這個狀況是 如果是這種狀況的話我們為了要讓經濟的體制跟我們這個整個市場開放的這個挑戰我們自己要有開創我們的新的經濟貿易的這條路嘛那所以說這個雙邊的FTA我們就必須要積極的來談了是的那這方面我們有努力哪些國家我們都一直在努力哪些國家已經在做的"},{"start":474.81,"end":486.649,"text":"我們現在這個在進行的部分那個委員這個部分我在這裡不太好發表了我們是不是簽一個這個MDA然後再來跟你報告"},{"start":487.746,"end":508.257,"text":"對 可以到辦公室報告是嗎我可以到辦公室跟你報告好 那還是要我們抬機密報告但我們也會抬一個機密報告是不是如果牽扯到國安的部分就是要機密報告好 那我們部長有慢慢進入狀況了可是我們看到現在連那個加拿大我們的全鄰的這個牛肉我們都進口了"},{"start":508.817,"end":532.804,"text":"所以加拿大也是我們都可以去談所以本席在這邊希望我們很多的顧忌跟我們的困難點我們必須要想辦法去突破尤其是FTA我們要去努力讓我們在大陸的打壓情況下又沒辦法進入CPTPP的情況之下我們在區域經濟當中的整合部分我們就要找出一個突破點"},{"start":533.604,"end":538.18,"text":"不要讓我們成為經濟的一個孤立好不好謝謝 謝謝委員垂詢我們會努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時57分）謝謝主席，請郭部長和經貿談判代表的顏副總。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長、顏副總談判代表。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，臺灣是出口導向貿易的經濟模式，尤其我們的GDP有六成都來自於出口貿易，所以我們現在要談的CPTPP就非常重要，我們妥協了很多他們的要求，像是對美國我們開放了萊豬進口，也解禁了日本福島食品，就是希望我們的CPTPP能夠更進一步。但是現在我們看到，我們提出了申請，現在已經幾年了，部長？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是3年。"],["呂委員玉玲：3年了，還沒有正式進入，也沒辦法做一個工作小組，這個原因你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為他們之前都在審議英國。"],["呂委員玉玲：審議了3年？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：12個會員國，我們是屬於共識決的，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：共識決。"],["呂委員玉玲：他們要有共識，12個會員國……"],["郭部長智輝：共識決是其中……"],["呂委員玉玲：都要同意。3年過去了還是沒有，但我們是出口導向的經濟模式，現在我們碰到的瓶頸就是，未來要如何解決我們這個全球經濟的模式呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我想在努力的，談判辦公室主導這這一件任務，其他的包括經濟部，包括其他相關部門、外交部等等，都很努力在跟所謂的會員國，因為是共識決，所以我們都跟會員國之間利用各種國際場域，大家彼此能夠交流……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，部長講的我們都做了，經貿代表也在那邊，我們都做了，做了3年，哪裡不足？哪個國家反對？沒有，只要聽你講話，大家都非常歡迎我們進入。在非常歡迎、沒有阻礙、沒有困難的情況之下，3年又過去了，你有看到我們的前途光景嗎？未來大概什麼時候會被審核正式進入呢？至少讓我們可以有工作小組，有的話，工作小組就會組成，還是沒有！尤其日本，我們開放福島核災的食品進來了，我們都已經妥協了，對國人健康的疑慮，我們也都處理了，這些我們都吃了，國人不該吃的也都吃了，這種情況之下，難道美國沒有幫我們背書一下嗎？日本也可以幫我們背書一下，都沒有嗎？雖然美國當時是TPP，他現在不是CPTPP的會員國，但是有美國的背書也就不一樣，所以萊豬也進口了，我們還要怎麼做，才能夠順利進入？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個可能跟美國沒有關係，因為美國已經退出了，拜登在任的時候，美國也沒有加入，現在又是川普上來，我想美國應該是不會進入CPTPP了，因為他退出了……"],["呂委員玉玲：他是全球的大國……"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是……"],["呂委員玉玲：他跟很多國家有一些貿易的協議，所以他如果給我們背書對我們是有幫助的，對不對？好，部長，沒關係，我就請顏副總……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，他是退出的國家，幫我們背書，在邏輯上面可能會有一點比較勉強啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：多多幫我們疏通，把我們的障礙一併除掉……"],["郭部長智輝：他都退出了，他怎麼幫我們疏通？"],["呂委員玉玲：他可以幫忙我們，我們是不是12個國家都要尋求幫忙？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，他會講他都退出了，要怎麼幫忙我們？"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那我請教一下，日本為什麼還沒有跟我們談這個貿易協定的非正式協商呢？"],["郭部長智輝：日本？"],["呂委員玉玲：對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：日本我們都有在努力……"],["呂委員玉玲：那為什麼還沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：日本是一個比較……"],["呂委員玉玲：他跟我們的關係不是很好嗎……"],["郭部長智輝：他是一個很……"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼還沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：因為就像剛才委員所垂詢的福島海產，我們也是最近才開放的……"],["呂委員玉玲：開放很久了，部長。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，今年。"],["呂委員玉玲：今年開放，現在已經11月了……"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們這三年的過程都沒有過，所以我們也很難……"],["呂委員玉玲：日本跟我們非常友好，所以我們是不是要準備跟他做這個貿易的協商？"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟日本的貿易也是非常穩……"],["呂委員玉玲：有做了嗎？有去談嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：非常穩健的在進行……"],["呂委員玉玲：有進行，有談嗎？副總代表。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員，我們實際上跟所有CPTPP的國家都有透過多邊、雙邊，包括APEC、WTO，在進行……"],["呂委員玉玲：請問我們跟日本有沒有進行非正式的貿易協商？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們要講的，所謂的非……"],["呂委員玉玲：有沒有？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：非正式貿易協商在成立工作小組……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們跟日本有沒有？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們當然有，我們在雙邊的……"],["呂委員玉玲：有，那現在為什麼還沒進行？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們有進行跟他們在其他管道上面的協商……"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼要其他管道，不能非正式的貿易協商嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：現在所有的接觸都是非正式的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以跟日本有談，談好了嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們跟所有CPTPP的國家都有接觸……"],["呂委員玉玲：日本有沒有？你不要……"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：日本當然是……"],["呂委員玉玲：我在問你日本。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：日本是CPTPP的國家其中一位，我們有接觸……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以有非正式的貿易協商了，談好了？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：有接觸過……"],["呂委員玉玲：那談得怎麼樣？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：基本上，這個就是在增進他們對我們的瞭解，然後確保我們確實有……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們跟日本這麼友好、這麼熟了，他們的福島核災食品我們也吃了，還有什麼沒有做到的？還要怎麼樣？還有什麼困難？你去談的結果有什麼困難？在這點有什麼困難？還要我們做什麼？還要我們妥協什麼？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，這一些議題，基本上，日本完全認為我們是符合高標準，也是有良好紀錄的……"],["呂委員玉玲：對，都符合了，現在有什麼困難？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想我們唯一的挑戰只是共識決這個部分，他請我們要去努力跟各個會員國溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我的意思是要先進行非正式的貿易協商，對不對？好。","部長，我們現在看到的就是我們都已經做了一些努力，但是大家都想，目前我們跟大陸的關係不太好，當然會員國會對大陸有所忌憚，這個雙邊關係之下，就沒有辦法來支持我們臺灣，只要有一個會員國反對，我們就沒辦法進入，我們跟大陸一起申請進入CPTPP是差不多的時間，如果大陸還一直有打壓的情況之下，我們就會很困難，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是這樣子吧！應該就如同委員所垂詢的這個狀況。"],["呂委員玉玲：如果是這種狀況的話，為了要讓我們的經濟體制因應整個市場開放的挑戰，我們自己要開創新的經濟貿易這條路，所以雙邊的FTA我們就必須要積極來談了。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：那這方面我們有努力哪些國家嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都一直在努力。"],["呂委員玉玲：哪些國家已經在做的？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在在進行的部分，委員，我在這裡不太好發表，我們是不是簽一個NDA，再來跟你報告？"],["呂委員玉玲：可以到辦公室報告，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我可以到辦公室跟你報告。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，還是要我們排機密報告，在我們委員會排一個機密報告，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：如果牽扯到國安的部分，就是要機密報告。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，部長有慢慢進入狀況了。另外，我們看到現在連加拿大全齡的牛肉我們都進口了，所以加拿大也是，我們都可以去談。本席在這邊希望我們很多的顧忌及困難點必須要想辦法去突破，尤其是FTA，我們要去努力，讓我們在大陸的打壓又沒辦法進入CPTPP的情況之下，在區域經濟整合的部分，找出一個突破點，不要讓我們經濟孤立，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝，謝謝委員垂詢，我們會努力。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員，部長請回座。","下一位質詢請陳超明委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員的推訊"},{"start":90.008,"end":112.365,"text":"就印太經濟架構我們確實有看到川普總統在競選的時候有提到印太經濟架構可能不是他當初所設想的一個政策方向那所以如果要依據過去川普總統在第一任的這個經驗他上任之後因為他就對於TPP他確實他就退出了TPP的這樣子的一個"},{"start":113.272,"end":136.672,"text":"做法的話當然可能對於印太經濟架構我們不排除或許他會再評估那這個是我們所看到的但是我也要補充的就是實際上印太框架就是Quad這個活動是在川普第一任當總統的時候把它提升到總統層級所以也代表川普總統他是一樣對於印太的這個合作"},{"start":137.032,"end":146.882,"text":"是相當重視的所以我相信他對於印太區域的推動不論透過哪一個方面的面向的強化所以他你認為他不會廢除這個嗎他當初說要廢除對就是說印太經濟架構本身的內容或許他會再做進一步的檢討那WTO呢他會不會廢除"},{"start":157.586,"end":167.935,"text":"就WTO的部分我必須要講的實際上川普總統在第一任的時候也是批評WTO非常多但是WTO他實際上涉及到的現在的會員已經有166個會員所以對美國來說如果他要去"},{"start":172.959,"end":191.826,"text":"所謂的對川普總統的意思他要廢除應該他只是在指的是美國是不是要評估退出WTO但是說實在的如果美國退出WTO的話反而是讓其他剩下的其他國家對美國本身是不用遵守WTO承諾未必對美國是最好的一個方向"},{"start":192.606,"end":207.252,"text":"所以如果川普他不支持WTO那對於藉由WTO所形成的這個ITA的相關的這樣子的協定會不會有影響?經濟部長這就是你的議題了對不對?ITA對啊會不會有影響?我們請我想是這樣子就是說其實這個全球自由貿易啊"},{"start":221.28,"end":237.69,"text":"以此這個是張忠謀董事長在前幾天所講的之前也已經倡議這樣事實上我們看到當這個川普上來以後因為他的政策就是讓美國更偉大所以過去的一些思維應該確實是會改變但是國際的狀況我想未來會趨於區域經濟化"},{"start":246.489,"end":266.67,"text":"所以區域經濟化我們可以看到像過去幾個地方我們可以明顯的看到歐盟可以看到東南亞國協這些都是屬於區域經濟的部分我個人認為就我所學的我認為未來會走向區域經濟更能夠代替這個所謂的全球自由貿易化"},{"start":267.13,"end":293.667,"text":"那目前我們出口到美國的現在佔的比重是22%那有很多的部分是在高科技的部分那這個部分未來在川普總統上任之後會不會對於相關的關稅會有所改變這個關稅應該是都會改變但是我們的對策就我剛才有報告過就是說我們的對策其實是利用"},{"start":294.727,"end":303.494,"text":"境外、關內這樣子的一個措施我把臺灣的一部分的供應鏈帶到美國去落地生產"},{"start":304.468,"end":330.524,"text":"那因為供應鏈集中落地生產它有個優勢就是說它在這個logistics上面的cost完全降低那彼此供應鏈之間的這個資源可以快速所以對我們在美國的這個廠商有非常重大的這個優勢所以是不是未來台灣的半導體的供應鏈必須變成你整條都要帶到美國去生產"},{"start":331.084,"end":338.839,"text":"是不是?也不是說只有必須到美國因為市場在哪裡我們的供應鏈就應該到哪裡去美國、去歐洲"},{"start":341.395,"end":365.184,"text":"因為這個全球已經沒有辦法因為這個已經打破那個因為這個區域的經濟共盟這個一定會形成的那因為這個地緣政治的關係嘛那包括這個極端氣候的影響所以這個市場已經完全改變所以張忠謀董事長非常的厲害他有先見之明他可以推論到說這個自由貿易已經死了"},{"start":366.024,"end":394.542,"text":"所以我個人是遵從這樣的所以臺積電必須要出走這個是市場在哪裡我們就是接近市場所以這樣的一個做法我個人認為是正確的所以如果臺積電出走那剛才也有委員問到的就是兩奈米的會不會移到美國去我們有國內有一些科技的管制兩奈米要去的時候最起碼我們1.4奈米要在國內已經是落地生產"},{"start":395.799,"end":422.828,"text":"那我們現在1.4奈米有沒有辦法現在還在那個所以沒辦法2奈米我們都還沒生產啊所以2奈米是沒有辦法去不是現在不是現在那Eventually一定會去嘛當然啦那要等到1.4奈米出來的時候才會去這個是我們國家的規定不會去那未來會我要再問一下那個副總代表"},{"start":428.083,"end":445.19,"text":"我想要請問喔如果就是說川普上來了他重視的是就是雙邊的這個貿易的這個談判嘛是不是那有沒有可能臺美的FTA有沒有辦法啟動我們會看到確實川普政府比較喜歡走雙邊的路線那目前我們臺灣跟美國之間已經有啟動很多的雙邊的其實這幾年來都已經建立"},{"start":457.27,"end":476.165,"text":"所以包括我們的臺美的21世紀倡議EPPD到TTIC都是我們運作良好的雙邊管道那我們會在這個既有的基礎之下希望尋求可以跟川普新政府有更多的往來互動的空間當然我們也不排除有機會如果"},{"start":477.352,"end":493.975,"text":"如果我們要重啓FTA的時候他會不會要求台積電的2奈米必須要到美國去生產他可以藉由這個框架是不是在FTA的這個談判的時候會不會有這樣的可能性"},{"start":495.209,"end":518.826,"text":"通常如果談FTA的話只會談到關稅、投資保護類這樣的一個概念那所以對於這些產業要如何去移動然後或者要分散他們的布局這個不一定會是在既有的FTA架構之下去談論的意義所以也不會要求台灣改變我們既原有的法令是不是"},{"start":520.117,"end":545.434,"text":"改變法令這個當然是雙邊如果有共識的標準之下那會去改變法令但是不必然一定會去改變我們在科技方面的這個法令的要求所以它不一定會但是有可能會去改變是不是就如果是我們雙方講好的特別是按照國際標準所應該要遵循的國內法規的話這個部分當然就會討論是會有檢討的空間好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":481,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時48分）謝謝主席，我想請經貿辦公室的顏慧欣。"],["主席：請顏副總談判代表。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，還有郭部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：郭部長，你認不認識你旁邊這個美女？我今天看到我們經委會來了一個新的美女──顏副總代表。"],["郭部長智輝：我不太認識。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不太認識？"],["郭部長智輝：第一次……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我相信大家都不認識，所以特別請他來。","副總代表，我想請問一下，現在川普總統已經當選了，所以這已經不是scenario，這是一個事實，而川普總統所說的，就是他反對在拜登總統時候所建立的印太經濟架構。印太經濟架構未來會不會廢除，你覺得有沒有這樣的可能性？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員的垂詢，就印太經濟架構，我們確實看到川普總統在競選的時候有提到，印太經濟架構可能不是他當初所設想的一個政策方向。所以如果依據過去川普總統在第一任的經驗，他上任之後，因為對於TPP，確實他就退出了TPP這樣子的一個作法的話，當然可能對於印太經濟架構，我們不排除或許他會再評估，這個是我們所看到的。但我也要補充的就是，實際上印太框架，就是Quad這個活動，是在川普第一任當總統的時候把它提升到總統層級，也代表川普總統實際上對於印太的這個合作是相當重視的。所以我相信他對於印太區域的推動，不論透過哪一個面向的強化，他會持續推動。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你認為他不會廢除這個嗎？他當初說要廢除。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，就是印太經濟架構本身的內容，或許他會再做進一步檢討。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那WTO呢？他會不會廢除？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：就WTO的部分，我必須要講，實際上川普總統在第一任的時候也是批評WTO非常多，但是WTO實際上涉及到的，現在已經有166個會員，所以對美國來說，所謂川普總統的意思，他要廢除，應該他只是在指美國是不是要評估退出WTO？但是說實在的，如果美國退出WTO的話，反而是讓剩下的其他國家對美國本身是不用遵守WTO承諾，未必對美國是最好的一個方向。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果川普不支持WTO，對於藉由WTO所形成ITA相關的協定會不會有影響？經濟部長，這就是你的議題了，對不對？ITA，會不會有影響？"],["郭部長智輝：我想是這樣子，全球自由貿易已死，這個是張忠謀董事長在前幾天所講的，其實之前就已經這樣倡議。事實上我們看到，當川普上來以後，因為他的政策就是「讓美國更偉大」，所以過去的一些思維應該確實是會改變。但是國際的狀況，我想未來會趨於區域經濟化，所以區域經濟化我們可以看得到，像過去幾個地方，我們可以明顯地看到歐盟，可以看到東南亞國協，這些都是屬於區域經濟的部分。我個人認為，就我所學的，我認為未來會走向區域經濟，更能夠代替所謂的全球自由貿易化。"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前我們出口到美國的，現在占的比重是22%，有很多是在高科技的部分。這個部分未來在川普總統上任之後，會不會對於相關的關稅會有所改變，你的評估呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個關稅應該是都會改變，我剛才也報告過，我們的對策其實是利用「境外關內」這樣子的措施，我把臺灣一部分的供應鏈帶到美國去落地生產。因為供應鏈集中落地生產，它有個優勢就是，它在logistic上面的cost完全降低，彼此供應鏈之間的資源可以快速，所以對我們在美國的廠商有非常重大的優勢，應該可以減少……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以是不是未來臺灣半導體的供應鏈必須變成整條都要帶到美國去生產，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：也不是說只有必須到美國，因為市場在哪裡，我們的供應鏈就應該到那裡。"],["謝委員衣鳯：去美國、去歐洲，就要走出去，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：因為全球已經沒有辦法，已經打破那個，區域的經濟共盟，這個一定會形成。因為地緣政治的關係，包括極端氣候的影響，所以這個市場已經完全改變。張忠謀董事長非常厲害，他有先見之明，他可以推論到自由貿易已經死了，所以我個人是遵從這樣的看法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以台積電必須要出走了？"],["郭部長智輝：市場在哪裡，我們現在是接近市場嘛！所以這樣的一個作法，我個人認為是正確的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果台積電出走，剛才也有委員問到，2奈米的會不會移到美國去？"],["郭部長智輝：我們國內有一些科技的管制，2奈米要去的時候，最起碼我們1.4奈米要在國內已經是落地生產。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那我們現在1.4奈米有沒有辦法？"],["郭部長智輝：現在還在那個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以沒辦法？"],["郭部長智輝：2奈米我們都還沒生產。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以2奈米是沒有辦法去？"],["郭部長智輝：不是現在。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是現在？"],["郭部長智輝：eventually一定會去。"],["謝委員衣鳯：當然，那要等到1.4奈米出來的時候才會去嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們國家的規定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以現在2奈米的不會去，那未來……"],["郭部長智輝：會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我要再問一下副總代表。我想要請問，川普上來了的話，他重視的就是雙邊的貿易談判，是不是？那有沒有可能，臺美的FTA有沒有辦法啟動？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們會看到確實川普政府比較喜歡走雙邊的路線，目前臺灣跟美國之間已經有啟動很多的雙邊機制，這幾年來都已經建立，包括臺美21世紀貿易倡議、EPPD到TTIC，都是我們運作良好的雙邊管道。我們會在這個既有的基礎之下，希望尋求可以跟川普新政府有更多往來互動的空間。當然我們也不排除有機會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：「如果」我們要重啟FTA的時候，他會不會要求台積電的2奈米必須要到美國去生產？他可以藉由這個框架，是不是？在FTA談判的時候，會不會有這樣的可能性？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：通常如果談FTA的話，只會談到關稅、投資保護這樣的一個概念，所以對於這些產業要如何移動，或者要分散他們的布局，這個不一定會是在既有的FTA架構之下去談論的議題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以也不會要求臺灣改變我們原有的法令，是不是？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：改變法令，這個當然是雙邊如果有共識的標準之下，那會去改變法令，但是不必然一定會去改變我們在科技方面的這個法令的要求。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以他不一定會，但是有可能會去改變，是不是？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：如果是我們雙方講好的，特別是按照國際標準所應該要遵循的國內法規的話，這個部分當然就會討論，是會有檢討的空間。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。下一位質詢請呂玉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"},{"start":379.577,"end":407.443,"text":"長官,你講這樣一般家長聽不懂啦你剛剛整句話都沒有告訴他他可以去哪裡檢舉跟報案剛剛衛福部講得很清楚嘛1999然後相關的衛生單位就會收到檢舉那救法務部的立場呢?或是警政署的立場呢?你們怎麼看?我身為一般家長我到底可以怎麼做?這個才是現在最大的問題啊我知道我們相關煙害防治法也修了我都知道衛福部也在討論加熱煙品這個評審會議我都知道現在我就問我是家長我該怎麼做?"},{"start":411.294,"end":417.019,"text":"所以我們只有衛福部那個管道?就只有衛福部那個部分?好,所以我們可以這樣對外向家長呼籲就現行的法規我們只能走衛福部那條路徑?是,確定喔?"},{"start":431.591,"end":448.56,"text":"確定?好,那我們就這樣說可是我還是覺得這個有很大的問題不過沒關係,我們會後再來討論另外一個,從這個題目長出來另外一個小題目部長你一定不知道在教育部呢大專院校厭害防制工作參考指引問答集裡面在113年6月18號修訂"},{"start":452.182,"end":478.482,"text":"你們會在新生健檢的時候實行一氧化碳檢測其實這個事情呢為什麼是113年6月18你們才頒布呢其實在過往你們其實曾經就想要對大專院校學生做這個事情可是當時被發現沒有相關法規範然後你們是不是就做了這個事情就是要學生就是對著那個偵測器土器這件事情部長你覺得這個做法目前有沒有相關的問題這有法律授權嗎"},{"start":485.558,"end":485.598,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":502.159,"end":502.5,"text":"教育部注意"},{"start":523.476,"end":547.651,"text":"好嗎 那不管是行政指引還是相關法規範我們辦公室會再跟教育部討論好 你們的幕僚一直在旁邊點頭所以你們自己知道出了什麼事情我們就不再多說接下來我想要問喔運動部這件事情從淹害防制我想要談我們如何讓我們的年輕人看見我們的主管機關對於淹害防制真的是有作為有價值觀 有核心價值我們來看"},{"start":550.453,"end":568.283,"text":"今年的日本奧運體操國手宮田生子因為被發現未成年吸煙他可是一定會得金牌的人結果他就被踢出日本代表隊因此日本果然有在體操就沒有得到金牌我看到日本人在想的是把教育跟法律放在奪牌之前"},{"start":568.703,"end":594.844,"text":"不是只是為了徵金奪銀還是放任這個選手出去比賽因為我再強調一次他是一個未成年的奪牌選手但是反觀我們台灣足協在5月16號針對U17三名選手帶酒精回宿舍營用當時足協在5月16公布懲處退訓那當時還有教練團集訓期間外出跟廠商喝酒只有書面警告部長請您記得一下"},{"start":596.189,"end":614.47,"text":"部長你聽我說5月16竹協這樣公告下一張10月22號竹協緊急在自己的網站上放了一個公文說為了備戰10月份的U17男子亞洲盃會外賽教練團認為戰力上急需兩位選手加入就是我剛剛說的"},{"start":615.811,"end":640.258,"text":"五月被退訓的那三個選手帶酒精飲料回宿舍的那三個選手其中有兩個又被撈回國家代表隊說是因為戰力需求我覺得非常荒謬的是我們所有的立法院委員在意孩子未成年吸菸喝酒的相關法規範相關政策相關教育宣導相關部會今天還為了這個議題"},{"start":645.599,"end":671.219,"text":"這麼多行政院的官員坐在這邊但是我們的足協由體育署是主管機關的足協卻可以說因為戰力需求再把這兩個未成年喝酒的球員拉入球隊部長我跟你報告5月他公佈把這兩個小孩退訓10月他又公佈拉回來比賽但是足協其實早在8月就開了相關的會議"},{"start":673.437,"end":687.248,"text":"5月、8月、10月這到底發生了什麼事情而且這個事情為什麼我今天一定要花時間在這裡講當我們在講菸酒防制的時候我們在花這麼多力氣的時候部長啊你的足鞋在扯你後腿部長我講到這裡你有什麼感想我要講的是為什麼我一定要拿日本那個國手他是可以拿奧運金牌的"},{"start":696.67,"end":709.023,"text":"但是日本決定因為未成年吸菸喝酒他們決定站在教育端站在法律合法端我們不要為了爭經奪義讓這個選手代表日本出去比賽但我們台灣的足協卻做這樣的事情"},{"start":710.103,"end":710.803,"text":"我想日本的一個做法值得我們來學習"},{"start":734.714,"end":738.701,"text":"主席這題你怎麼辦已經過了其實比賽已經過了但我還是要提出來講明確的來要求各單項協會一定要例行這樣的一些規範"},{"start":746.65,"end":765.991,"text":"部長你一定不知道這件事情對不對不清楚對但是我剛講的邏輯部長你一定認同我們大人在這邊辛辛苦苦做煙害防制的教育啊、宣導啊、立法法規範大家有非常多的討論不要說衝突大家有非常多討論大家有非常多的價值跟信念但是你的足協在扯你後腿而且他就是未成年的球員"},{"start":767.762,"end":796.681,"text":"但反觀日本那我們未來升格為運動部之後我們一定可以做得更好更多讓我們的隊員球員們為這年的球員相信你們大人真的說一套做一套這件事情不要再發生了然後也讓我們球員家長相信我們是公正公平的我們是有一定的法規範在限制這些事情不能再只是為了戰力需求這件事情而且竟然是有足協發出這樣的公文我完全沒有辦法接受更不要講跟他同隊的隊員我不知道體育署你可不可以接受"},{"start":797.54,"end":803.155,"text":"提議署長你可以接受嗎?報告委員這一點我們已經要求主席絕對不可以再犯這其實我們也不能接受的"},{"start":804.575,"end":833.094,"text":"謝謝署長的回應你也不能接受對不對所以我相信你們可以更積極你們其實有非常多行政手段可以跟主協好好溝通但是我認為主協一直以來之所以這麼囂張我必須用囂張這兩個字我真的覺得我們體育署的管制力道真的還要再加強或者是溝通哪裡出了問題要拜託不然從今天題目談下來我真的覺得如果今天有小孩球隊小孩看到我們今天所有委員會的質詢真的會覺得你們大人說一套做一套啊"},{"start":833.934,"end":834.034,"text":"陳培瑜委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時42分）謝謝主席，有請教育部、衛福部、法務部、數發部、內政部警政署，謝謝。"],["主席：好，以上麻煩列席。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長好。所有人都關心志工，但是大家都忽略了一件事情，我已經跟體育署溝通過很多次了，我們臺灣其實有社區運動俱樂部，而且絕對超過千個，有足球、籃球、棒球等各式各樣的球類，如果今天這個性騷疑似犯進入任何社區運動俱樂部，在部長您剛剛回答所有委員的平臺上是查不到的，也是收不到你們公文的，因為會收到你們公文的是學校、補習班、課後班，你們所有有立案的團體都收得到，但是社區運動部是沒有立案的。部長，我只是要告訴你會有這個很大的漏洞，如果這個人擅長運動，如果剛好有社區運動俱樂部的人要徵教練，徵各式各樣的成人指導員在旁邊，然後剛好社區運動部主責的人又沒有看到新聞，他就會進入社區運動俱樂部，我只是舉其中一個例子。","之前我一直在跟體育署溝通，為什麼社區運動俱樂部應該在你們的政策視野當中，現在這個人可能就會因為過往不在你們的政策視野當中，你們認為那個是全民運動，你們認為那是不應該納管的，甚至這些大人不應該被你們列有所謂的兒少工作證，所以他就有機會進入不在所有您剛剛回復委員的平臺中，他可能就因著運動教育在社區俱樂部裡頭殘害我們的學生。部長，我知道這一題您沒有辦法回答，我只是要用我在立法院問政這一年半的經驗告訴你，有太多現場的漏洞，可是您的幕僚可能沒有跟您報告，或是在過往您不熟悉的業務範圍當中，他可能就殘害到我們的孩子。好，以上這個部分我就先簡單說明到這邊，但是我還是要感謝部長，你們積極的動作跟回應確實可以給家長一個交代，但是我剛剛說的漏洞沒有人注意到，所以要拜託部長看有沒有辦法亡羊補牢，部長，您覺得呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想如何讓兒少有一個更好的成長環境，保障他們是應該的……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我的時間有限，你覺得我剛剛問的那一題怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們內部再來看怎麼樣來精進這方面的防制。"],["陳委員培瑜：至少在這個個案上，我不確定我們時間來不來得及，但是未來運動部要升格，現在體育署一定會跟你們討論很多相關的事情，所以拜託部長，全民運動、社區運動俱樂部這件事情務必要放入未來的政策視野當中，還有相關人員的法規範、相關的證照制度，以確保我們兒少的安全，這件事情非常非常的重要，由這個個案再度凸顯，這也就是為什麼我今天還要額外花時間提醒大家這件事情。我要再次強調，現在教育部跟衛福部兒少法第四十九條還有幼照法所有的平臺上都找不到這個人，因為他不用跑去任何要立案的單位就可以接觸到我們的小孩，這是現在最可怕的事情，而且它可能就發生了！"],["鄭部長英耀：也拜託委員會後能夠把這個名單給我，我想我們內部來……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我沒有名單，我的意思是說……沒關係，體育署絕對可以給您關於社區俱樂部各式各樣的困境，有沒有辦法透過體育署現在已經有的，跟很多協會或很多社區運動俱樂部聯繫的管道？你們趕快發公文，甚至用你們原有的人際網絡，趕快把相關的資訊帶給社區運動俱樂部，因為我相信有一些聯絡的可能性。部長，我真的很感謝你已經提到了平臺，所以教育部確實有掌握到困境，但是我所說更大的漏洞不在平臺裡面的社區運動俱樂部。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來做，我想在運動部成立之前，我們希望所有相關的法令規章能夠更周延。"],["陳委員培瑜：對今天這個個案我們再一起來想辦法。"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我只是提醒部長這個漏洞很大。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，很多委員都講了，我就先快速切到一個問題，這個買得很快，然後很好買，孩子們會透過人際網絡分享，在實體或者是網路都很好買。但是我現在有發現一個很大的困境，要跟部長討論，祭出重罰看起來沒有用，我只是想問，假設有一天有家長發現了孩子們已經在買了，然後家長想要對這些網站進行檢舉，我身為一個家長，部長會建議我要打電話給誰？或者是站在後面的相關部會人員可不可以告訴我，我身為一個家長，我在一個網站上看到了這個非常fancy的畫面，然後只有小小的字提醒我們的孩子有尼古丁，那我身為家長，我可以如何檢舉？"],["賈副署長淑麗：報告委員，關於這件事情，如果家長發現以後有做截圖的動作，可以逕送我各縣市的衛生單位。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以請家長找衛生單位？"],["賈副署長淑麗：這是一條路。"],["陳委員培瑜：這一條路怎麼做？我在臺北市，我是臺北市民，所以我打給臺北市1999？"],["賈副署長淑麗：不只1999，還有他們的社區健康中心，把圖片用e-mail或者LINE的方式提供給我們的衛生單位，我們就會進行實體的約詢跟裁罰。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以家長能夠做的是這個事情，那請問警政單位呢？警政單位可以教我們家長什麼方法嗎？如果我看到在我孩子的電腦上出現這個，我很擔心，我跟孩子也溝通了，我身為家長，我想要盡社會責任，身為一個公民，我想要盡社會責任，我可以做什麼事情？"],["陳副局長炯旭：我想這個電子煙部分還是要請業管單位，但是如果他有這個問題，現在檢舉管道很多，他如果有跟我們110來講，我想我們也會協助他到相關的主管機關來做立案，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：長官，你講這樣，一般家長聽不懂啦！你剛剛整句話都沒有告訴他可以去哪裡檢舉跟報案，剛剛衛福部講得很清楚，打1999然後相關的衛生單位就會收到檢舉，那就法務部的立場或是警政署的立場呢？你們怎麼看？我身為一般家長，我到底可以怎麼做？這個才是現在最大的問題啊！我知道我們相關菸害防制法也修了，我知道衛福部也在討論加熱菸品，這個評審會議我都知道，我現在就是問我是家長，我該怎麼做？我至少要檢舉嘛！對不對？"],["陳副局長炯旭：對，這部分剛剛衛福部也提到，因為這是屬於行政法……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們只有衛福部那個管道？"],["陳副局長炯旭：對，這是行政法。"],["陳委員培瑜：就只有衛福部那個部分，好，所以我們可以這樣對外向家長呼籲，就現行的法規，我們只能走衛福部那條路徑？確定喔？確定，好，那我們就這樣說。可是我還是覺得這個有很大的問題，不過沒關係，我們會後再來討論。另外，從這個題目長出另外一個小題目，部長，你一定不知道，教育部的大專校院菸害防制工作參考指引問答集是在113年6月18號修訂，你們會在新生健檢的時候實施一氧化碳檢測，這個事情為什麼是到113年6月18號才頒布呢？其實在過往你們就曾經想要對大專院校學生做這個事情，可是當時被發現沒有相關法規範，然後你們是不是就做了這個事情？就是要學生對著偵測器吐氣這件事情，部長，你覺得這個做法目前有沒有相關的問題？這有法律授權嗎？這個會不會有人權的問題？而且10年前當時林騰蛟次長您在新北市的時候，其實也發生過相關的事情，你們要叫學生吐氣偵測他有沒有一氧化碳，要確定他有沒有抽菸，當時就爆發了衝突事件，民間團體就有收到陳情，有一個老師要小孩吹氣，小孩不吹，然後那個老師就拿保溫瓶打破小孩的頭，後來上了新聞，結果教官在那個小孩要被送醫的時候，還追著小孩叫他吹氣、吹氣、吹氣。我想要提醒教育部，現在對這件事情相關的法規範依據其實是沒有的，要請教育部注意，好嗎？不管是行政執行還是相關法規範，我們辦公室會再跟教育部討論，你們的幕僚一直在旁邊點頭，所以你們自己知道出了什麼事情，我們就不再多說。","接下來我想要問運動部這件事情，從菸害防制我想要談如何讓我們的年輕人看見主管機關對於菸害防制真的是有作為、有價值觀、有核心價值。今年的日本奧運體操國手宮田笙子因為被發現未成年吸菸，他可是一定會得金牌的人喔！結果他就被踢出日本代表隊，因此日本在體操項目果然就沒有得到金牌。我看到日本人在想的是把教育跟法律放在奪牌之前，而不是只為了爭金奪銀就放任這個選手出去比賽。我再強調一次，他是一個未成年的奪牌選手。反觀臺灣，足協針對U17三名選手帶酒精回宿舍飲用，足協在5月16號公布懲處退訓，當時還有教練團在集訓期間外出跟廠商喝酒，結果只有書面警告，部長請您記一下，5月16號足協是這樣公告。10月22號足協緊急在自己的網站上放了一個公文，說為了備戰10月份的U17男子亞洲盃會外賽，教練團認為戰力上亟需兩位選手加入，就是我剛剛說的5月被退訓的那三個選手、帶酒精飲料回宿舍的那三個選手，其中有兩個又被撈回國家代表隊，說是因為戰力需求。我覺得非常荒謬的是，所有立法院委員在意孩子未成年吸菸、喝酒的相關法規範、相關政策、相關教育宣導，相關部會今天還為了這個議題，這麼多行政院的官員坐在這邊，但是由體育署主管的足協卻可以說因為戰力需求，再把這兩個未成年喝酒的球員拉入球隊。部長，我跟您報告，5月它公布把這兩個小孩退訓，10月它又公布拉回來比賽，但其實足協早在8月就開了相關的會議，5月、8月、10月這到底發生了什麼事情？為什麼我今天一定要花時間在這裡講這件事情？當我們在講菸酒防制的時候，我們在花這麼多力氣的時候，部長，你的足協在扯你後腿。部長，我講到這裡，你有什麼感想？我要講的是，為什麼我一定要拿日本那個國手為例，他是可以拿奧運金牌的，但是因為他未成年吸菸喝酒，日本決定站在教育端、站在法律合法端，他們不要為了爭金奪銀，讓這個選手代表日本出去比賽，但我們臺灣的足協卻做這樣的事情！先不要管比賽的規模是奧運還是所謂的亞洲盃，但是我們在孩子面前做的是這樣的示範。請問部長，如果你跟這群孩子是同隊的隊員，你心裡作何感想？如果你又是這些同隊隊員的家長，你心裡作何感想？但我們今天卻在這裡討論菸害防制，我覺得非常的諷刺。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想日本的作法值得我們學習。"],["陳委員培瑜：那足協這一題你怎麼辦？其實比賽已經過了，但我還是要提出來講……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想未來我們會更明確的要求各單項協會，一定要力行這一些規範。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你一定不知道這件事情對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：不清楚。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我剛剛講的邏輯，部長你一定認同。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們大人在這邊辛辛苦苦做菸害防制的教育、宣導、立法規範，大家有非常多的討論，不要說衝突，大家有非常多的討論，大家有非常多的價值跟信念，但是你的足協在扯你後腿，而且他就是未成年的球員，反觀日本又是怎麼做的？未來升格為運動部之後，我們一定可以做得更好、更多，讓我們未成年的球員相信你們大人說一套、做一套這件事情真的不會再發生了，然後也讓我們的球員家長相信我們是公正、公平的，我們是有一定的法規範在限制這些事情，不能再只是為了戰力需求這件事情，而且竟然是由足協發出這樣的公文，我完全沒有辦法接受，更不要講跟他同隊的隊員，我不知道體育署可不可以接受？體育署長你可以接受嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這一點我們已經要求足協絕對不可以再犯，這個我們的確也不能接受。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝署長的回應，你也不能接受對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信你們可以更積極，你們其實有非常多行政手段可以跟足協好好溝通，但是我認為足協一直以來之所以這麼囂張……我必須要用「囂張」這兩個字，我真的覺得體育署的管制力道還要再加強，或者是溝通哪裡出了問題？要拜託署長，不然從今天的題目談下來，我真的覺得如果有球隊的小孩看到我們今天所有委員會的質詢，真的會覺得你們大人說一套、做一套啊！因為你們放任跟我們同隊的同學他們去喝酒，然後被踢出球隊，但是因為戰力需求，現在把他們拉回來打球。我們大人真的要這樣做嗎？部長，我語重心長，謝謝。謝謝主席，謝謝部長，謝謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來有請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156588","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156588","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054866d1c13ec946fdcbe9b0bd4ecc214d51cbb87bdf8ddece3844353fb8ddf334f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:41:10 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concerned very very worried部長你知道本席問這樣有沒有不妥啊?你知道我是在關心你還是在憂心啊?你知道為什麼你覺得你對本席這個說法應該是有點熟悉吧?我覺得應該說"},{"start":55.64,"end":72.311,"text":"其實民主國家選舉競爭跟政黨的問題是常態的所以我們要用歡喜心來迎接美國的民意產生的新總統我們跟他是一個夥伴關係所以不用憂心的就是說要關心不要憂心"},{"start":72.611,"end":96.531,"text":"對,但是不然你可能不知道,因為你們的吳次長對這次美國大選說了這些話,那到底是關心還是憂心,那你認為吳次長這樣的說法有沒有過多呢?他已經澄清了,因為那個不是訪問,結果他那個後來有更正,那個,那個是…但是媒體應該不可能,因為他們兩個這個字…有有有,他真的去更正了耶,那家媒體因為他不是訪問,然後他自己也誤解了,所以他就澄清了。"},{"start":97.071,"end":102.233,"text":"我們請同仁拿給委員參考我們也知道身為外交人員對於美國這麼重要的選舉其實不應該有這樣的字眼所以以後可能要注意一下然後我剛才因為徐曉勳委員有詢問了但是我還是想要再詢問一下就是部長你應該很有意向就是選前川普曾經說過我們台灣的國防經費應該要提高到GDP的10%"},{"start":123.539,"end":129.222,"text":"但是以臺灣現在114年的預估GDP26.4兆的10%來計算就是2.64兆那這樣佔總稅出的84%那也就是說我們目前國防預算的將近要5倍那這是無論如何都是我們不可能做得到的事情那請問部長你覺得川普就任後會不會強硬的要求臺灣要提高國防預算"},{"start":149.292,"end":175.987,"text":"其實不管百分之五或百分之十這是一個期許啦就是我們要自我防衛的決心也要透過我們的能力來呈現就這一點百分之十是非常高欸我說這個是一個期許的方向要增加我就告訴他說我們也在增加過去半年已經被增那我們未來也會持續在被增啦因為部長你也知道川普過去的作為啦你認為他是不是屬於那種比較難預測的領導人呢"},{"start":178.368,"end":202.557,"text":"我倒不會 我覺得其實民主本來就充滿了各種可能性我們去講的話不可預測可是我們大家認為說他會關稅提高你們有沒有針對明年川普要上台之後可能的台美互動做一些兵推呢還是說如果他們真的強硬我們要要求那麼提高這樣的國防預算外交部要如何因應呢這個有沒有做過內部的推演有"},{"start":203.897,"end":220.637,"text":"如果你們有做過了這樣推演,你們是打算如何的因應呢?我們事先其實就採取一些溝通,然後事後當然也要因應。所以,就這個部分,我們,他現在人事的安排,我們就更清楚會知道他政策的內容,跟輕重環節。"},{"start":221.798,"end":240.629,"text":"所以我們會一步一步的來隨著他的這個交接期間他的組織政府也要經過國會同意啊一般來講這些像國務卿等等這個都要經過大概到明年3月國會正式這個開議之後我們這個交接期就是一個很好去溝通"},{"start":241.449,"end":256.691,"text":"事實上他執政過四年的時間,川普政府下面的不管是過去的官員或現在的這些參與決策的幕僚,我們都有在聯繫,也有很溝通的管道。"},{"start":257.591,"end":284.762,"text":"這次的美國總統大選的話美國國內有一些社會撕裂的情況是非常嚴重的對於彼此的各種的攻擊所以選舉期間也發現過好多的激烈的行為就是川普兩次差點被暗殺然後選舉前兩天投票率好像也有一些炸彈恐嚇的案件那各地的投票所也陸續加裝了防彈的玻璃那部長你認為選後會再次出現美國這種大規模的暴動的可能性有多高呢?"},{"start":286.224,"end":299.494,"text":"應該沒有吧?因為他的一個勝選是還蠻清楚的,不是說少數的票啦,或者是說這個計算的問題啦。那賀錦麗副總統,總統候選他會表達恭賀,而且就是說會協助他政權順利的交接。所以我想這次選舉應該不會有什麼後續這種大的這種社會的這種分老啦。"},{"start":315.728,"end":316.789,"text":"報告委員 瓜地馬拉、貝里斯、聖露西亞、聖文森、聖克里斯多普五個國家"},{"start":335.539,"end":351.124,"text":"台灣在加勒比海有拉丁美洲有大概有7個邦交國那你巴拉圭和海地這些兩個國家有去嗎海地在南美洲比較遠未來會去那海地因為現在的狀況這兩個國家就是這一次沒有去嗎對不對對會找機會去"},{"start":353.666,"end":367.293,"text":"是不是邦交關係不穩定還是因為有個別原因呢今年沒有去的國家會不會跟我們斷交啊因為你都去了五個國家這兩個國家沒去會不會他們就會會不會有這種斷交的危險啊那部長你外交部有沒有掌握"},{"start":368.68,"end":368.961,"text":"外交部部長"},{"start":399.941,"end":420.694,"text":"原所外交尤其是出訪當然對國家很重要我們這個外交部主要是協助總統府做好幕僚的作業跟第一線的這些行政工作有關相關出訪的地點時間會由總統府他如果有這樣的安排的話他會對外公佈"},{"start":421.721,"end":436.209,"text":"所以現在剛好遇到美國大選剛好有結果年底將會是美國政府的一個過渡時期所以這個時間如果安排出訪過境美國這樣你覺得會恰當嗎你覺得呢還是覺得明年上任的時候外交部才做這樣的安排呢"},{"start":438.622,"end":459.634,"text":"目前並沒有這樣的一個規劃有的話會跟委員報告我希望外交部站在專業評估的立場上國際情勢還有兩岸的情況要如實呈報作為總統出訪安全的依歸不要讓台灣人民在短時間又受到了驚擾謝謝部長"},{"start":465.954,"end":468.878,"text":"陸委會副主委陸委會選前有沒有做過兩套劇本的兵推?"},{"start":485.825,"end":507.32,"text":"我們沒有做過嚴格的兵推但是每一種情況我們大概都預想過那我們也知道兩岸關係現在相牽在美中的關係上面陸委會預判明年川普就任之後兩岸關係會出現怎樣的變動呢那副主委你對兩岸關係未來幾年的發展你是樂觀還是悲觀看待呢"},{"start":510.373,"end":528.236,"text":"因為這一次的勝負狀態很明顯我們本來預期說它會是很膠著的狀況甚至可能有點像2020年的狀況但是昨天看起來勝負狀態很明顯所以短期之內台海局勢不會因為有空窗期然後出現變數"},{"start":529.81,"end":550.628,"text":"那未來的話,我覺得現在可能很多也,大家都媒體上看到了,大陸可能比我們更頭痛,所以其實不只台灣跟大陸,跟全世界各國都在看說美國政府,新政府的政策方向跟走向,所以"},{"start":552.009,"end":572.237,"text":"目前來說的話沒有人能夠說出一個很明確的方向不過我個人覺得說美國的兩黨他在對台灣跟對中國的這個政策基本上態度跟立場都還蠻一致的所以短期之內應該不會有什麼特別的變化"},{"start":572.657,"end":574.538,"text":"其實委員所提到的大陸的學者或者是一些媒體他的"},{"start":600.768,"end":623.415,"text":"正反意見都有啦,正反意見都有那大陸的高層或是他們的政府決策高層他們是不會透露他們的意向的那會透露會講的通常都在政策上面沒有實質的影響力所以我們在媒體上面所看到或是這些學者所講的我們只是作為一個參考但是他們的作用到底在哪裡我們還是會觀察"},{"start":626.716,"end":630.86,"text":"主席再給我一點時間接著本席想要請問有關共軍山東號的航空母艦前幾天有估計上個週末會通過台灣南端跟呂宋島之間的巴林塘海峽會進入西太平洋那據說跟著山東號一起出港的還有綜合補給艦還有054A的巡防艦跟052D的驅逐艦這是一個很完整的艦隊的規模"},{"start":651.96,"end":661.629,"text":"那針對中國解放軍這樣的動態就有學者會分析這是針對河南眾議院訪問台灣在進行恫嚇嗎?那主委你認為這可能性有多大呢?還有那中國會不會趁著這一次的航空母艦的編隊遠航在美國大選之後又再次舉行聯合歷屆2024期的軍演?那主委你判斷有沒有這種可能性?這種可能性有多大?"},{"start":678.088,"end":697.583,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告我們本來會擔心說美國的選舉的這個勝負局勢如果他太接近的話那可能會有一些力量他會覺得說可以趁著這個空窗期來做一些挑釁的動作"},{"start":698.824,"end":722.723,"text":"但是昨天這樣看起來的話勝負很明確所以我相信這些變數不太會產生那如果說現在中共的不管是他們山東建也好或其他建也好現在正是這個中共例行演訓的一段期間所以他們各類的演訓都有那我們認為說這個不是特別針對這個美國總統選舉"},{"start":728.547,"end":735.522,"text":"希望陸委會對於兩岸的未來還是要多多的對話和交流,千萬不要讓國人再次的陷入恐慌跟恐懼。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":373,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時41分）謝謝主席。有請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：昨天美國大選結果已經大致底定，針對這次美國大選結果，在深入了解外交部立場之前，本席想先代表人民關心一下內閣到底會不會因此而異動？部長，你會不會擔心外交部長的位置不保？"],["林部長佳龍：我沒有想過這個問題。"],["林委員憶君：你知道為什麼我要這樣問嗎？因為本席very concerned，very very worry！部長，本席這樣問有沒有不妥？你知道我是在關心你，還是在憂心？為什麼？你對這說法應該有點熟悉吧？"],["林部長佳龍：民主國家的選舉競爭與政黨輪替是常態，所以我們要用歡喜心來迎接美國民意所產生的新總統。我們跟他是夥伴關係，所以不用憂心，也就是要關心，不要憂心。"],["林委員憶君：但部長你可能不知道，因為你們吳次長對這次美國大選說了這些話，那到底是關心還是憂心？你認為吳次長這樣的說法有沒有不妥？"],["林部長佳龍：他已經澄清了，因為那並不是訪問，所以後來有更正。"],["林委員憶君：但媒體應該不可能因為他講了……"],["林部長佳龍：有，他真的去更正了。因為他不是接受那家媒體訪問，然後他自己也誤解了，所以他就澄清了，我請同仁拿給委員參考。"],["林委員憶君：我們也知道，身為外交人員，對於美國這麼重要的選舉，其實不應該有這樣的字眼出現，所以以後可能要注意一下。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["林委員憶君：雖然剛才徐巧芯委員有詢問了，但我還是想要再詢問一下。部長，你應該很有印象，選前川普曾經說過臺灣國防經費應該要提高到GDP的10%。以現在114年來預估，GDP 26.4兆的10%來計算，就是2.64兆，占總歲出的84%，將近目前國防預算的五倍，這是無論如何都不可能做到的事！請問部長，你覺得川普就任後會不會強硬要求臺灣提高國防預算？"],["林部長佳龍：其實不管5%或10%，這是一個期許，就是我們要有自我防衛的決心，也要透過我們的能力來呈現……"],["林委員憶君：可是10%非常高！"],["林部長佳龍：就這一點……"],["林委員憶君：10%非常高！"],["林部長佳龍：這是期許我們要增加的方向，所以我就告訴他，我們也在增加，過去半年已經倍增，未來也會持續倍增。"],["林委員憶君：部長，你也知道川普過去的作為，你認為他是不是屬於那種比較難預測的領導人？"],["林部長佳龍：我倒不會！我覺得民主本來就充滿了各種可能性，我們講他不可預測……"],["林委員憶君：你們有沒有針對……"],["林部長佳龍：大家認為他會提高關稅……"],["林委員憶君：你們有沒有針對明年川普上任、上臺之後，可能的臺美互動做一些兵推？還是說，如果他們真的態度強硬，要求我們把國防預算提到那麼高，外交部如何因應？這個有沒有做過內部的推演？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["林委員憶君：如果你們有做過了這樣推演，你們打算如何因應呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我們事先其實就採取了一些溝通，事後當然也要因應。所以就這個部分……隨著人事的安排，我們會更清楚知道他政策的內容跟輕重緩急，所以我們會一步一步隨著交接期間，他的組織政府……也要經過國會同意。一般來講，像國務卿等等都要經過，大概到明年3月國會正式開議之後，這個交接期就是一個很好去溝通的時間，事實上他執政過四年的時間，川普政府不管是過去的官員或現在參與決策的幕僚，我們都有在聯繫，也有溝通的管道。"],["林委員憶君：這次美國總統大選，美國國內有一些社會撕裂的情況是非常嚴重的，對於彼此的各種的攻擊，所以選舉期間也發生過好多激烈的行為，就是川普兩次差點被暗殺，然後選舉前兩天、投票日好像也有一些炸彈恐嚇的案件，各地的投票所也陸續加裝了防彈玻璃，部長，你認為選後會美國再次出現大規模暴動的可能性有多高呢？"],["林部長佳龍：應該沒有吧，因為他的勝選是還蠻清楚的，不是少數的票或者是計算的問題。"],["林委員憶君：所以部長，你認為不可能會有這樣大規模的暴動就對了？"],["林部長佳龍：賀錦麗副總統也表達恭賀，而且也表達會協助政權順利的交接，所以我想這次選舉後續應該不會有什麼這種大的社會紛擾。"],["林委員憶君：接下來我想請教一下部長你出訪友邦的問題，你剛結束了拉丁美洲跟加勒比海友邦的訪問，你這次去了哪些國家呢？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，瓜地馬拉、貝里斯、聖路西亞、聖文森，還有聖克里斯多福及尼維斯，共5個國家。"],["林委員憶君：臺灣在加勒比海及拉丁美洲大概有7個邦交國，巴拉圭和海地這兩個國家，你有去嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：海地在南美洲，比較遠，我未來會去，海地因為現在的狀況……"],["林委員憶君：這兩個國家就是這一次沒有去，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對，會找機會去。"],["林委員憶君：那是不是邦交關係不穩定？還是因為有個別原因呢？"],["林部長佳龍：不會。"],["林委員憶君：今年沒有去的國家會不會跟我們斷交？因為你都去了5個國家，這兩個國家沒去，會不會有這種斷交的危險？部長，外交部有沒有掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：不會有斷交的危險，我們都跟他們很密切的在合作，很多項目都順利在推動中。"],["林委員憶君：因為我們現在也沒有剩幾個邦交國了，外交部真的千萬不要再讓其他國家跟我們斷交了啦。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["林委員憶君：我想要再繼續請問一下，520總統就任之後，賴總統至今還沒有安排出國的訪問，有一個傳聞就是說賴總統今年出訪中南美洲國家可能會順便過境美國，這個消息屬實嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：元首外交尤其是出訪當然對國家很重要，我們外交部主要就是協助總統府做好幕僚的作業跟第一線的行政工作，有關出訪的地點、時間，如果總統府有這樣的安排的話，會對外公布。"],["林委員憶君：好，現在剛好美國大選有結果，年底將會是美國政府的一個過渡時期，如果在這個時間安排出訪過境美國，你覺得恰當嗎？還是覺得明年上任的時候，外交部才會做這樣的安排？"],["林部長佳龍：目前並沒有這樣一個規劃。"],["林委員憶君：到目前為止還沒有這個規劃就對了？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["林委員憶君：我希望外交部站在專業評估的立場上，國際情勢還有兩岸的情況要如實陳報，作為總統出訪安全的依歸，不要讓臺灣人民在短時間又受到了驚擾。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝部長，部長請回。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：接下來有請陸委會副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：副主委好。針對美國大選的結果，陸委會選前有沒有做過兩套劇本的兵推呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們沒有做過嚴格的兵推，但是每一種情況我們大概都預想過。"],["林委員憶君：我們也知道，兩岸關係現在鑲嵌在美中的關係上面，陸委會預判明年川普就任之後，兩岸關係會出現怎樣的變動呢？副主委，你對兩岸關係未來幾年的發展，你是樂觀還是悲觀看待呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為這一次的勝負狀態很明顯，我們本來預期它會是很膠著的狀況，甚至可能有點像2020年的狀況，但是昨天看起來勝負狀態很明顯，所以短期之內，臺海局勢不會因為有空窗期而出現變數，未來的話，大家也從媒體上看到了，大陸可能比我們更頭痛，其實不只臺灣跟大陸，全世界各國都在看美國政府新政府的政策方向，所以目前來說，沒有人能夠說出一個很明確的方向。不過，我個人覺得，美國的兩黨在對臺灣跟對中國的政策，基本上態度跟立場都還蠻一致的，所以短期之內，應該不會有什麼特別的變化。"],["林委員憶君：但是我們觀察到的情況好像不是這樣，美國大選前，中國大陸學者的討論，似乎對川普當選是比較樂觀其成，主委，你認為現在的原因是什麼？因為川普的商人個性，對任何事情包含臺灣安全，都有可能會是交易的籌碼，這也是我們所擔心的，還是你覺得有其他主要的原因呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：其實委員所提到的大陸的學者或者一些媒體，正反意見都有，大陸的高層或他們的政府決策高層，是不會透露他們的意向的，會透露、會講的通常都在政策上沒有實質的影響力，所以，我們在媒體上面所看到或是這些學者所講的，只是作為一個參考，但是他們的作用到底在哪裡，我們還是會觀察。"],["林委員憶君：主席再給我一點時間，接著本席想要請問，有關共軍山東號的航空母艦前幾天有估計上個周末會通過臺灣南端跟呂宋島之間的巴林坦海峽，進入西太平洋，據說跟著山東號一起出港的還有綜合補給艦、054A的巡防艦跟052D的驅逐艦，這是一個很完整的艦隊規模，針對中國解放軍這樣的動態，就有學者分析，這是針對荷蘭眾議院訪問臺灣在進行恫嚇嗎？主委，你認為這可能性有多大呢？還有中國會不會趁著這一次航空母艦的編隊遠航，在美國大選之後，再次舉行聯合利劍2024C的軍演？主委，你判斷有沒有這種可能性？這種可能性有多大？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：剛剛跟委員報告，我們本來會擔心美國選舉的勝負局勢如果太接近的話，可能會有一些力量會覺得說可以趁著這個空窗期來做一些挑釁的動作，但是昨天這樣看起來，勝負很明確，所以我相信這些變數不太會產生。中共不管是他們山東艦也好或其他艦也好，現在正是中共例行演訓的一段期間，所以他們各類的演訓都有，我們認為這個不是特別針對美國總統選舉。"],["林委員憶君：好，那希望陸委會對於兩岸的未來，還是要多多的對話和交流，千萬不要讓國人再次陷入恐慌跟恐懼，謝謝。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君召委。"],["主席（林委員憶君）：接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156587","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156587","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0545f99440f65d956bb13be6769c271087b1cbb87bdf8ddece37676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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謝謝施展尤其現在依托米紙的替代品替代攤名在中國很流行那我們要預防說未來是不是在台灣也會氾濫所以這個跨部會這個橫向的聯繫是非常的重要也希望說法務部這邊跟教育部要緊密的合作好 那您請回另外我也希望說警政署在查獲依托米紙中的稀有或持"},{"start":316.147,"end":326.998,"text":"此有或稀釋的人數裡面你們要去做統計年齡、教育程度、職業那將這個資料能夠交給教育部跟國建署作為反讀宣導的依據那接下來呢部長您"},{"start":337.799,"end":345.441,"text":"部長 今天的主題 專報的主題就是在本席在總質詢的時候的題目本席在總質詢的時候有說過我們是很擔憂有毒品的這個煙油透過電子煙進入校園那我們先來看一下國建署這邊調查的資料從107年到110年國高中生使用電子煙的比例其實是節節攀升的國中生從107年的1.9%到110年的3.9%"},{"start":363.527,"end":370.273,"text":"那高中學生又從107年的3.4%到110年的8.8%這樣的狀況其實是真的讓人家很憂心再來看一下關於大專院校學生使用電子煙的狀況教育部在112年前各校查填違法使用的這個情況調查的結果人數只有1536人使用部長您覺得這個數字是有確實的反映事實嗎"},{"start":389.541,"end":409.777,"text":"我想如果以衛福部的數據跟教育部內部的當然它有一定的一些落差那本來就是說在調查、問卷調查裡面當然難免會有一定的誤差會有一定的落差的原因是什麼?那個部長您有想過嗎?其實本期這邊要跟教育部"},{"start":411.198,"end":437.922,"text":"在討論這個問題喔我有跟你們要的資料齁就是近3年高中以下學校通報電子煙的這個件數110年是20件112年是32件到113年在目前為止只有38件這個件數很明顯的跟事實是有很大的落差那根據國建署的調查的統計跟教育部這個來比對差這麼多部長您覺得是什麼原因"},{"start":438.562,"end":465.888,"text":"跟委員報告有比較我直接的看這個數據我認為青少年他在抽煙電子煙可能發生在校外的比例是比較高的因為學校裡邊他主要上課讀上課嘛時間排的比較緊湊然後他放學以後可能在社區在其他的地方學校的老師終究在這個部分他還是會關心青少年的一個發展所以"},{"start":466.488,"end":466.508,"text":"那這邊齁"},{"start":482.149,"end":509.345,"text":"我也要跟部長您提醒其實這個數字反映出來就是說現場教學現場的老師他們要做這個電子煙的查查其實是有困難的那困難的原因就是說其實我們教育部以及我們衛生主管單位有沒有針對校園內的查緝做一個一套的一致性的規範讓學校可以遵循本席在總質詢的時候有建議過教育部我們應該聯合橫向的聯合社政警政衛政這個系統"},{"start":510.706,"end":511.766,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀"},{"start":537.679,"end":545.481,"text":"本席要求的是我們教育部這邊針對校園電子煙處理的流程跟機制而不是對外的所以在這邊我要建議第一個我們應該針對學生使用電子煙查緝通報裁罰有個流程是明確一致的流程第二個是希望說我們來明確規範是不是通報家長我們在什麼時候通報家長第一次查到的時候還是第二次查到的時候還是在什麼時候通知家長是最適當的"},{"start":564.147,"end":592.651,"text":"第三個是不是同步的通報地方衛生單位我們也要一致的標準我們是抓到了查到了就通報還是在怎樣的情況下會通報我想委員所提醒的我們都會在校園的陰害防治裡邊我們把它納入然後在實施辦法裡邊來進行這個部分我要求教育部你們要盡快的把這個相關的這樣的流程這樣的規範訂出來有個依據學校的老師他開採一個有這樣子的SOP可依選"},{"start":593.331,"end":593.671,"text":"陳秀寳教育部長"},{"start":623.334,"end":624.815,"text":"我完全同意委員的說法希望是有互動式的﹗是"},{"start":651.229,"end":655.773,"text":"好,謝謝部長那接下來給我一點時間我想請國建署我們請國建署委員好國建署今天是假副署長那請問署長呢?署長這個因公出國那在上...兩個禮拜前的專報他也出國?是的"},{"start":678.035,"end":679.938,"text":"因為也是會有家長們覺得說這麼重要的專報"},{"start":694.557,"end":696.799,"text":"反映說為什麼署長都沒有到場是不是覺得說他不夠積極還是不夠關心沒有 署長在這個出國之前有跟我們充分的討論那這邊因為我只接了一點點時間我想針對國建署這邊我還是要提醒你們在報告裡面其實有寫說針對這個網路販售的這個稽查"},{"start":711.852,"end":711.952,"text":"主席主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":496,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安。在進入今天的主題之前，因為剛才雅琳委員也有關心同樣一個問題，就是有一個有性犯罪前科的美籍人士入臺，此事讓家長及教師們都非常非常的憂心，剛才部長您回復說，已要求各縣市政府的教育局處來清查狀況，那意思是說明天才會有清查的結果嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實我們現在通令，從系統上來講要聘用，如果有性侵前科，系統上一定會阻隔掉，因為他是不符合資格的，至於有一些不必然是立案，可能是社區或者許多小型的兒童補習班或者才藝班，我們也希望地方政府，特別是針對兒少這個區塊，一定要確實去普查。要普查之後再回報，確實需要一些時間，所以，是不是容許我們在明天下午的時候，中央跟地方合作，希望明天下午的時候，地方能夠回報清查的……"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長。本席要求，此事攸關校園的安全，千萬不能怠惰，在教育部掌握了最確切的消息之後，本席也要求教育部一定要公布調查的結果，讓家長跟民眾都可以放心。"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，我想這是我們的責任。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長，您可以先休息一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來請法務部郭司長。"],["主席：我們有請郭司長。"],["郭司長永發：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：司長好。在10月底的時候，本席跟吳琪銘委員、李坤城委員共同舉行關於喪屍煙彈管制的記者會，也呼籲相關的部會要重視依托咪酯濫用的問題，當時本席有提到，去年高檢署去年11月底成立的毒品先驅原料預警平臺，當時教育部是沒有參與的，就這個部分，我會要求法務部應該要邀請教育部與會。請問司長，這個部分你們有跟部長討論過嗎？"],["郭司長永發：這個部分，我們會請教育部也能夠加入這個平臺……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以下一次你們預警平臺開會的時候，就會邀請教育部了？"],["郭司長永發：對，會邀請，後面會邀請……"],["陳委員秀寳：因為整個防制毒品的安全網不能獨缺教育部，我們應該更全面的跟每個部會都有訊息的交流，所以司長這邊有承諾，下一次開會的時候教育就會來參與？"],["郭司長永發：是。會。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為教育部的校安通報有統計學生濫用藥物的情況，如果有新興藥物在校園裡面流竄，教育部也會將他們實際掌握的情形，包括校園裡面的情況提供給各部會參考，同時，當然他們也需要掌握新興毒品的第一手訊息，來提供學校端注意，所以就這個部分，我們各部會在這整個平臺的互動跟訊息交流是非常非常的重要，希望就這個部分，你們除了邀請教育部進來之外，我也希望你們開會的……你們之前是多久開一次會？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，高檢署這邊是一個督導緝毒的小組，各地檢署有一個緝毒執行小組，每三個月開一次……"],["陳委員秀寳：三個月？"],["郭司長永發：每三個月開一次，我們除了邀執法機關之外，都有邀當地縣市政府的教育局派員來參加，也請少年法庭委派庭長或法官來參加，在那個會議上就有關於毒品的分析、查緝的狀況，我們都分析給來參與的教育局人員，希望他們在查辦上能夠多加協助。因為進入校園這一塊其實蠻敏感的，有些學校蠻抗拒的，這一部分其實在各地檢署每三個月就會開一次會，因為我待過新竹、臺中、雲林，我們每三個月就開一次會邀這些單位來。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝司長。尤其現在依托咪酯的替代品替來他明在中國很流行，我們要預防未來是不是也會在臺灣氾濫，所以跨部會的橫向聯繫非常重要，也希望法務部跟教育部要緊密合作。好，您請回。"],["郭司長永發：謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：另外，我也希望警政署要就查獲持有或吸食依托咪酯的人進行統計，包括年齡、教育程度、職業等，能夠將這個資料交給教育部跟國健署作為反毒宣導的依據。","接下來要請教部長。部長，今天專報的主題就是本席總質詢時的題目，本席在總質詢的時候有說過，我們很擔憂有毒品的煙油透過電子煙進入校園。我們先看一下國健署這邊調查的資料，從107年到110年，國高中生使用電子煙的比例節節攀升，國中生從107年的1.9%到110年的3.9%，高中學生也從107年的3.4%到110年的8.8%，這樣的狀況真的讓人很憂心。再來看一下大專院校學生使用電子煙的狀況，教育部在112年請各校查填違法使用的情況，調查的結果只有1,536人使用，部長，您覺得這個數字有確實的反映事實嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想如果以衛福部跟教育部內部的數據相比，當然它會有一定的落差，本來就問卷調查而言，當然難免會有一定的誤差……"],["陳委員秀寳：會有一定落差的原因是什麼，部長，您有想過嗎？本席要跟教育部再討論這個問題，我有跟你們要資料，就是近三年高中以下學校通報電子煙的件數，111年是20件，112年是32件，113年到目前為止只有38件，通報的件數很明顯的跟事實有很大的落差。就國健署的調查統計跟教育部的通報件數比對之後相差這麼多，部長，您覺得是什麼原因？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我直接看這個數據，我認為可能青少年抽電子煙發生在校外的比例是比較高的，因為在學校裡面他要上課，上課的時間排得比較緊湊，然後他放學以後，可能在社區或在其他的地方，學校的老師終究在這個部分，他還是會關心青少年的發展，所以有比較大的落差，我相信學生在問卷調查時有1,000多位承認說自己有抽，但是他不是在校內裡面抽……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，您的意思是說，在校園內發生跟校園外發生這樣的事實跟數據落差還是有關係的。這邊我也要跟部長您提醒，其實這個數字反映出來的就是，教學現場的老師要查察電子煙其實是有困難的，困難的原因就是我們教育部以及衛生主管單位，有沒有針對校園內的查緝，做一套一致性的規範讓學校可以遵循。本席在總質詢的時候有建議過教育部，應該橫向地來聯合社政、警政、衛政系統，做一套一致性可以遵循的規範，讓學校有所依據，但是教育部這邊目前是不是沒有一個這樣的機制可以依循？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想確實電子煙的問題一定要許多單位共同合作，教育部這邊我們也絕對會勇於承擔。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，本席要求的是教育部這邊要建立校園電子煙處理的流程跟機制，而不是對外的，所以在這邊我要建議，第一個，教育部應該針對學生使用電子煙查緝通報裁罰有一套明確一致的流程；第二個，希望教育部明確規範是不是通報家長以及什麼時候通報家長，是第一次查到的時候還是第二次查到的時候，還是在什麼時候通知家長是最適當的；第三個，是不是同步地通報地方衛生單位，也要有一致的標準，我們是抓到了查到就通報，還是在怎樣的情況下會通報？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想委員所提醒的，我們都會將它納入校園菸害防制實施辦法裡面來執行……"],["陳委員秀寳：針對這部分，我要求教育部要儘快的把相關的流程規範訂出來，有個依據，學校的老師才有SOP可以依循，他在做校園查緝的時候，才可以照這樣的規範……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想我們願意來做。"],["陳委員秀寳：另外，我真的要提醒我們教育部對於防毒……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會把現有的辦法做一些精進。"],["陳委員秀寳：學生防毒的宣導跟教學，我覺得真的是太消極了。教育部不要覺得教育學生就是在教學上而已，其實學生種種的認知，學生種種的技能，這個也是學校教育的一環，教育的一部分。我們如何教導學生保護自己，然後可以辨識，然後有自制力去抗拒毒品的誘惑，這也是教育中很重要的一環。"],["鄭部長英耀：我完全同意委員的說法。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以教育部不能覺得說我們只負責教學，在毒品的防制方面，我們在宣導上必須要非常的用心，不能像之前那樣一直很單向的、很單調的，讓學生覺得又是這樣子，都千篇一律……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們學校老師的教學都是朝這個目標在努力。"],["陳委員秀寳：希望是有互動式的，而且讓學生如果有意見也可以反饋。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長。接下來給我一點時間，我想要請國健署。"],["主席：我們請國健署。"],["賈副署長淑麗：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：國健署今天是賈副署長來，那請問署長呢？"],["賈副署長淑麗：署長因公出國。"],["陳委員秀寳：那在上兩個禮拜前進行專報時他也出國嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是的。"],["陳委員秀寳：是有怎樣的要務或者是……"],["賈副署長淑麗：大家都知道，因為年底到了，有相當多的國際年會還有一些重要的國際會議都是在年底。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為有家長反映像這麼重要的專報，為什麼署長都沒有到場，他是不是不夠積極還是不夠關心？"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒有，署長在出國之前有跟我們充分的討論。"],["陳委員秀寳：我只借了一點點時間，我想提醒國健署，你們在報告裡面其實有寫針對網路販售的稽查，但是現在電子煙的取得真的是非常非常的容易，在學生之間會流傳很輕易取得的這個管道，而且真的隨便上網搜尋就可以查到購買的網站。所以我在這邊提醒國健署要更積極地研議你們稽查的方式。"],["賈副署長淑麗：是的，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果你們有進一步的措施，我也希望能提供給我辦公室參考。"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們會提供，沒問題，謝謝委員提醒。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝副署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳秀寳委員。","接下來有請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156584","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054b74ed89407830892be9b0bd4ecc214d51cbb87bdf8ddece306b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:26:41 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American Great Again"},{"start":34.691,"end":47.76,"text":"所以他雖然充滿不確定性但是呢從另外台灣的這個美國的台灣通普瑞哲曾經說過川普是世界美國近代史上對防衛台灣最不以為然的總統"},{"start":50.962,"end":66.488,"text":"川普談價格不談價值講利益不重道義那我目前跟美國的關係剛好不是這樣子很多都是感情牌那請問政府認為在這個部分當川普以講求利益為主"},{"start":67.008,"end":85.545,"text":"那感情微腐的狀況之下．你覺得臺美的關係．在川普跟拜登上來這個交接之後．會有哪一些差別．請注意喔我沒有說美國會不支持臺灣我要問的是會有哪一些的差別．是外交部現在所評估的"},{"start":87.167,"end":94.871,"text":"其實在川普當總統的時候﹐很多對台灣政策的創新﹐那是過去﹐因為他充滿不確定性﹐所以2016年的川普﹐跟2024年的川普未必一樣﹐他的發言也經過這幾年來說﹐上上下下、上串下跳﹐"},{"start":106.411,"end":129.543,"text":"他2016年的說法版本跟他現在的說法版本是不一樣的所以我們要怎麼樣去因應這樣子的一個不確定性的危機這是我要請教你的問題我想經濟對他來講是目的也是一個手段所以他會用關稅然後等等一定的保護主義可是這個當然對方方會有影響他其實是來做一個"},{"start":130.7,"end":132.041,"text":"這也是為什麼美國這次選給川普的主要原因之一"},{"start":157.472,"end":174.586,"text":"但是他在這次選舉期間的政見有好幾樣跟台灣是有關的他在競選時期曾說過要求台灣的國防預算要提升至5到10%的GDP的這個部分那國防部昨天已經有表態說不可能了"},{"start":175.706,"end":191.478,"text":"這是美國特朗普總統的政見我們又知道他是一個非常強悍的人也不知道他當選之後會不會有這樣子的一個強迫但我們看一下這張同影片我們從107年開始我們的國防預算是1.95%"},{"start":198.383,"end":201.686,"text":"那到了114年度變成2.45% 增加了2885億元 增幅已經高達80.47% 如果明年115年增加GDP到"},{"start":215.756,"end":217.056,"text":"我今天要問外交部的是請問這方面要怎麼幫國防部去跟美方來溝通說我們沒有辦法提供10%的國防預算因為這個圖太可怕了"},{"start":244.643,"end":263.074,"text":"這是我試算出來的,是幾兆啊?是2.96兆,2.6兆的數字喔所以我們本來才多少,我們又已經這個政府預算就很多了民主黨他們要求我們是希望提高到3%所以離2.45%左右呢是差了一點點"},{"start":264.795,"end":285.165,"text":"可是現在他們的標準達到5到10%．如果真的上到10%的話．會變成2.6兆的國防預算．所以我相信部長的角色．配合國防部昨天說不可能．一定勢必要去跟美方溝通．請問我們有什麼條件．什麼方式．什麼方向來跟美國溝通"},{"start":287.157,"end":311.732,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我就跟他這樣溝通啦我們過去8年來這個國防預算持續增加將近未來也會繼續增加那這個未來的部分因為我們其實計算國防預算我們要去說明其實台灣現在退補會台灣現在全社會任性台灣現在兵役從4個月恢復到1年其實這個都是國防預算啦"},{"start":312.372,"end":314.373,"text":"部長您這樣講就不對了因為在川普他的這個政策裡面是分成軍購費用跟保護費用這件事您知道嗎?"},{"start":329.79,"end":332.212,"text":"部長,他把軍購跟保護,也就是服務費用分成兩筆,這是不同的。"},{"start":348.166,"end":367.561,"text":"在他的論述裡面如果您有仔細看的話他沒有駐軍啦我們自己在支持我們龐大的這個軍力嘛現在這個服役又提早了一年我意思是說這個計算的基礎以及他的項目因為我覺得大方向我們跟他並沒有不一樣只是說"},{"start":368.822,"end":386.646,"text":"這個所謂5%或10%他講的這個數字這個是一個趨勢嘛那我們的趨勢本來就持續在增加中所以我會用這種方式溝通說我不是 我不同意你的主張我們的主張有一致的方向但是怎麼做也要有執行力嘛比如說我們採購了200億的美金的這個軍購案啊他都還沒有辦法給我們啊他也有點理虧啊"},{"start":392.987,"end":397.028,"text":"這一點我支持林佳龍部長他們欠我們的武器他們要給我們我們才能去跟他購買新的武器啊不能很多武器都延遲交付然後你叫我給你10%的GDP暴增成如此這個大家台灣民眾能如何接受呢我們台灣的財政也無法負擔啊所以麻煩我們部長朝這個方向去跟美方做溝通"},{"start":420.754,"end":421.514,"text":"我們並沒有付給他啦,我們付給自己啦"},{"start":450.896,"end":451.116,"text":"美國叫我們做的"},{"start":467.369,"end":469.13,"text":"川普上任後對於烏克蘭的自由協助可能會停止因為川普對於烏克蘭的戰爭一直是不以為然的"},{"start":488.676,"end":505.556,"text":"但是川普他又是一個我不要講他視錢如命啦但是他對美國的利益至上這件事情是無從置諱的但拜登政府任內提供了包含是PDA以及台灣的相關的軍購的融資的服務"},{"start":506.437,"end":526.794,"text":"那所以呢基本上在這個部分FMF可能在共和黨上任之後會停止這一部分的援助那請問如果拜登政府提供給我們的免費軍援也就是PDA跟FMF停止的時候我們要怎麼協助國防部跟共和黨溝通請他們繼續免費的提供台灣"},{"start":531.408,"end":531.688,"text":"那都可以改啊?"},{"start":552.401,"end":557.687,"text":"我認為國會選舉我們有持續觀察共和黨的國會議員挺台的力道是非常大挺台的力道高對高挺台的力道高歸高但是問題是要給錢的時候那又是另外一回事我們自己如果採購武器自己付錢是很自然的"},{"start":572.165,"end":593.609,"text":"但是PDA跟EMF都是美國免費提供軍援給台灣這是拜登上任以後才有的政策所以我們是在講如果川普他們去改了這個政策變成不提供了那我們外交部有沒有管到或是我們會不會向美方來針對這個部分做抗議"},{"start":596.67,"end":599.531,"text":"主席借我一分鐘我問最後一個問題喔川普呢他在競選期間他說台灣搶走美國的半導體部長您同意他說的這句話嗎"},{"start":627.195,"end":637.168,"text":"這句話是有問題的但是就是所謂因為其實半導體產業我其實計算過台灣現在整個在所有的供應鏈我們在佔不到兩成"},{"start":638.595,"end":640.235,"text":"部長,這個道理我都懂所以我才替台灣人報不平所以我們都做到這樣了川普總統還說台灣搶了美國的晶片"},{"start":664.801,"end":681.311,"text":"所以他未來會不會在這方面克重稅或對台灣下重手這是外交部要強力去關注的您同意嗎?對,我們都密切注意當中那如果有任何的變動是他真的按照他過去的說法因為"},{"start":682.111,"end":705.573,"text":"我也坦白跟部長說他可能過去說他未來不一定會做這也是有可能的並沒有要給外交部過大的壓力但如果你們觀察到真的他繼續針對台灣的半導體要求我們提供任何的不合理的服務項目或者是關稅或者是金錢、經濟等等的話外交部會向美方嚴正的提出抗議嗎?"},{"start":707.827,"end":711.93,"text":"其實我跟委員報告美國的這些半導體的專家、業者還有媒體都已經替我們說了"},{"start":735.247,"end":736.008,"text":"他替我們說不如我們自己說如果別人都幫我們說但我們卻不幫自己說的話"},{"start":750.505,"end":763.894,"text":"所以請部長,如果川普總統他當選以後繼續維持選舉期間的選舉口號跟步調沒有改變的話請外交部一定要嚴正的提出譴責保護台灣的半導體產業,可以嗎?"},{"start":767.131,"end":780.858,"text":"我覺得他是個法治國家就要看他提的法案具體的內容啦沒有我就說假使發生這種狀況嘛因為這是有可能發生的狀況嘛沒有當然最好我們都樂得開心啊但假使國會也通過了美國總統也這麼做了那"},{"start":782.819,"end":791.464,"text":"我們是不是就要發表嚴正的抗議並且要實質上的去做溝通你是不是要承諾有這件事情而不是說我們一定會去溝通的其他人有幫我們講話我們就算了我們要為自己發聲保留台灣的半導體這是我們的經濟命脈從國民黨早期執政的時候一個豆漿會然後呢想出我們要做半導體一路一路一路到現在我們在大樹之下乘涼"},{"start":810.276,"end":810.416,"text":"徐巧芯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":295,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時26分）謝謝主席，我們有請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天大家都很關心美國選舉的結果，川普這個人的個性，外界普遍都認為他是比較不充滿確定性的、以美國利益為至上的，所以他在第二任的競選口號才會叫「Make America Great Again」，雖然他充滿不確定性，但是美國的臺灣通卜睿哲曾經說過，川普是美國近代史上對防衛臺灣最不以為然的總統，川普談價格不談價值，講利益不重道義，我們目前跟美國的關係剛好不是這樣子，很多都是感情牌。請問政府認為，在這個部分，當川普以講求利益為主、感情為輔的狀況之下，你覺得臺美的關係在川普跟拜登交接之後，會有哪一些差別？請注意喔！我沒有說美國會不支持臺灣，我要問的是，會有哪一些的差別是外交部現在所評估的？"],["林部長佳龍：其實在川普當總統的時候，有很多對臺灣政策的創新……"],["徐委員巧芯：那是過去，我剛剛講，因為他充滿不確定性，所以2016年的川普跟2024年的川普未必一樣，他的發言經過這幾年來也是上上下下、上竄下跳，他2016年的說法版本跟他現在的說法版本是不一樣的，所以我們要怎麼樣去因應這樣一個不確定性的危機，這是我要請教你的問題。"],["林部長佳龍：我想經濟對他來講是目的也是一個手段，所以他會用關稅當作一定的保護主義，這個當然對雙方會有影響，他其實是來做一個就是leverage，他想用經濟，尤其是關稅來提高他外交的利益。"],["徐委員巧芯：制裁一些國家，以創造美國的經濟利益，讓美國人能夠賺錢，讓美國的股市能夠變好，這也是為什麼這次川普……"],["林部長佳龍：讓美國的人民能夠就業，製造業能夠重返美國。"],["徐委員巧芯：這也是為什麼美國這次會選給川普的主要原因之一，但是他在這次選舉期間的政見，有好幾樣跟臺灣是有關的，他在競選時期曾說過，要求臺灣的國防預算要提升至5%到10%GDP的這個部分，國防部昨天已經有表態說不可能了，但這是美國川普總統的政見，我們又知道他是一個非常tough、非常強悍的人，也不知道他當選之後，會不會有這樣子的一個強迫。我們看一下這張投影片，從107年開始我們的國防預算是1.95%；到了114年度變成2.45%，增加了2,885億元，增幅已經高達80.47%；如果明（115）年增加到GDP的10%，要再增加7.55%GDP，會直接往上飆升成這個模樣。","另外一部分我會問國防部，但我今天要問外交部的是，請問這方面要怎麼幫國防部去跟美方溝通，說我們沒有辦法提供10%的國防預算，因為這個圖太可怕了，我試算出來後，是2.6兆的數字，本來的國防預算才多少，而且這已經占政府預算比例很多了，民主黨他們要求、希望我們提高到3%，所以離2.45%是差了一點點，可是現在他們的標準是希望達到5%到10%，如果真的上到10%的話，會變成2.6兆的國防預算，所以我相信部長的角色，配合國防部昨天說的不可能，勢必要跟美方溝通，請問我們有什麼條件、什麼方式、什麼方向來跟美國溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：簡單跟委員報告，我會跟他這樣來溝通，過去8年來，我們國防預算持續增加，將近倍增，未來也會繼續增加。在計算國防預算上，我們要去說明，其實臺灣現在的退輔會、臺灣現在的全社會防衛韌性、臺灣現在的兵役從4個月恢復到1年，其實這個都是國防預算，表示我們的計算標準不一定一樣，所以我們重新計算一下，而且這也包括未來增加的趨勢，畢竟我們本來就要增加了。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，您這樣講就不對了，因為在川普的政策裡面，是分成軍購費用跟保護費用，這件事您知道嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有講「保護費用」這個字！"],["徐委員巧芯：有啊！他有講保護費啊！"],["林部長佳龍：他講到付費，我們本來就在付費，因為我們那麼多的國防預算……"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，他把軍購跟保護，也就是服務費用分成兩筆，在他的論述裡面，這是不同的，如果您有仔細看的話。"],["林部長佳龍：這裡他沒有駐軍，是我們自己在支持我們龐大的軍力，現在服役又提高到一年，我的意思是說，這個計算的基礎以及他的項目，我覺得大方向上我們跟他並沒有不一樣，只是他講的所謂5%或10%這個數字，這是一個趨勢，我們的趨勢本來就在持續增加中，所以我會用這種方式來溝通，而不是我不同意你的主張，我們的主張有一致的方向，但是怎麼做也要有執行力，比如說，我們採購了200億美金的軍購案，他都還沒有辦法給我們，他也有點理虧，所以我是覺得國際談判上也是要儘量去溝通。"],["徐委員巧芯：我懂你的意思，這個沒錯，我支持林佳龍部長，他們欠我們的武器，他們要給我們，我們才能去跟他購買新的武器，不然很多武器都延遲交付，然後你叫我增加10%的GDP、暴增成如此，這個臺灣民眾如何能接受！而且我們臺灣的財政也無法負擔，所以麻煩我們部長朝這個方向去跟美方做溝通。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["徐委員巧芯：但我剛剛談到的是保護費的概念，不要講保護費，講服務費好了，這樣講比較好聽，不然好像被人家黑道說這是什麼圍事錢，就是他是分成服務的費用，也就是說要不要出兵來協助臺灣等等或駐軍等等的費用，跟軍事採購的費用，我想請教的是，這一筆服務費，從外交部的角度來說，你們會跟他溝通要付還是不付？"],["林部長佳龍：我們並沒有付給他，我們是付給自己。"],["徐委員巧芯：付給自己是什麼意思？"],["林部長佳龍：就是增加我們的國防預算，包括我們怎麼去計算，現在單單所謂國防安全的全社會防禦韌性，這個也是美國叫我們做的……"],["徐委員巧芯：這是美國叫我們做的？"],["林部長佳龍：是啊！美國希望強化我們的社會防禦韌性……"],["徐委員巧芯：好！那我知道了！"],["林部長佳龍：因為像俄烏戰爭之後；像芬蘭、立陶宛等等都是。"],["徐委員巧芯：你這樣講，我非常清楚了。","再來，我想要問一個問題，川普上任以後，對於烏克蘭的巨額協助可能會停止。因為川普對於烏克蘭的戰爭一直是不以為然的，但是川普又是一個……我不要講他嗜錢如命，但是他對美國的利益至上這件事情是無從置喙的，但拜登政府任內提供了包含PDA以及給臺灣的軍購融資，基本上，在共和黨上任之後，可能會停止FMF的援助。請問，當拜登政府提供給我們的免費軍援，也就是PDA跟FMF停止時，外交部要怎麼協助國防部與共和黨溝通，請他們繼續免費提供臺灣軍援？"],["林部長佳龍：其實美國國會所通過的法案是有約束力的，姑且不講PDA和FMF，像NDAA、NDIS是有具體的撥款或項目，不過不一定只來自所謂Presidential Drawdown Authority這樣的機制。"],["徐委員巧芯：那都是可以改的！"],["林部長佳龍：對於國會選舉我們有仔細觀察，其實共和黨國會議員挺臺的力道非常大……"],["徐委員巧芯：挺臺力道高歸高，但要給錢時又是另外一回事！"],["林部長佳龍：我們自己採購武器，自己付錢是很自然的，我們要增加自我防衛，一定要……"],["徐委員巧芯：但PDA跟FMF都是他們提供的……部長，PDA跟FMF都是美國免費提供軍援給臺灣，這是拜登上任以後才有的政策。所以我要的講是，如果川普改了這項政策，變成不提供了，外交部有沒有管道或我們會不會針對這部分向美方抗議？"],["林部長佳龍：不會。"],["徐委員巧芯：不會？沒關係，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有很多管道，譬如我剛剛講的NDAA、NDIS，非常多。"],["徐委員巧芯：知道了……"],["林部長佳龍：美國國會通過的法案跟撥款……"],["徐委員巧芯：PDA和FMF的金額有多高，我建議部長回去再了解一下。主席，借我一分鐘，我問最後一個問題。川普在競選期間說，臺灣搶走美國的半導體，部長，您同意他說的這句話嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這句話是有問題的！我計算過半導體產業，其實現在整個供應鏈臺灣大概占不到兩成……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊。"],["林部長佳龍：我們主要是在製造端，所以我們臺灣賺一塊，美國賺三塊……"],["徐委員巧芯：連這個他都說我們搶。"],["林部長佳龍：而且台積電的外資占了六、七成，這整個供應鏈裡，我們要幫他做……"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，道理我都懂，所以才替臺灣人抱不平！我們都做到這樣了，川普總統還說臺灣搶了美國的晶片！他未來會不會在這方面課重稅或對臺灣下重手，這是外交部要強力關注的，您同意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們都密切注意當中。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果有任何變動，也就是他真的按照他過去的說法……我坦白跟部長說，他過去說的未來不一定會做，這也是有可能，我並沒有要給外交部過大的壓力。但如果你們觀察到他真的繼續針對臺灣半導體，要求我們提供任何不合理的服務項目或關稅或金錢、經濟等等的話，外交部會向美方嚴正的提出抗議嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：如果有法令的修改，基本上要經過國會……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我說通過之後。"],["林部長佳龍：要看到項目，我不能這樣概括而論。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我說，川普繼續說臺灣搶走美國半導體，就算他只是說說，但全世界的人都聽到了，外交部要做何反應呢？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，美國的半導體專家、業者還有媒體，都已經替我們說了，我們只要把他們的說法好好……"],["徐委員巧芯：他替我們說……"],["林部長佳龍：繼續溝通，因為選舉過去後會有一段沉澱期……"],["徐委員巧芯：知道。"],["林部長佳龍：大家回到問題裡來看怎麼解決……"],["徐委員巧芯：他替我們說，不如我們自己說。如果別人都幫我們說，但我們卻不幫自己說的話……"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定要幫自己說。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以請部長注意，川普總統當選後，如果繼續維持選舉期間的選舉口號和步調沒有改變的話，請外交部一定要嚴正提出譴責，保護臺灣的半導體產業，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：它是個法治國家，所以要看他提的法案具體與內容。"],["徐委員巧芯：我是說假使發生這種狀況！因為這是有可能發生的狀況，沒有當然最好，我們都樂得開心啊！但假使國會通過了，美國總統也這麼做了，我們是不是要發表嚴正抗議，並做實質上的溝通？你是不是要承諾這件事情，而不是說……"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定會去溝通的。"],["徐委員巧芯：其他人有幫我們講話，我們就算了。但我們要為自己發聲，保留臺灣的半導體，這是我們的經濟命脈。從國民黨早期執政時的豆漿會，想出我們要做半導體，這一路、一路走來到現在！我們在大樹之下乘涼，怎麼能讓別人拿大刀把樹砍倒呢？"],["林部長佳龍：不會的。"],["徐委員巧芯：拜託，我們的……"],["林部長佳龍：因為樹上長的果子美國摘收的最多，所以他沒有必要砍掉這棵樹啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是！果子我們要吃啊！這個人如果把所有的果子都摘掉，全部獨吞了，我們要吃什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：樹可能就死了。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，所以這部分要拜託部長！"],["林部長佳龍：對這部分我們會跟他溝通。"],["徐委員巧芯：時間到了，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員，部長請回。待會洪申翰委員質詢完畢之後休息5分鐘。"],["主席（徐委員巧芯代）：我們有請下一位林憶君委員上臺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156583","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156583","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054dfdfd6f02d9895f813be6769c271087b1cbb87bdf8ddece3b530526dddbaabce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:21:41 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謝謝委員的推詢針對這個我們在透過各種方式去接觸的過程確實大家對於我們符合高標準以及有良好的貿易記錄沒有任何的異議沒有任何的異議嗎沒有任何的問題那當然那我們應該走得很順可是我們從2021年申請9月到現在已經進入第4個年頭了因為前半段他們都是在處理英國的入會問題直到今年他們才開始有時間去處理新的成員國"},{"start":303.451,"end":323.765,"text":"新的成員國他們就是在針對這用奧克蘭三原則來做審視我們結束的過程他們特別提到共識絕這個是希望臺灣要特別去努力的部分理解因為我在想說臺灣其實也不是第一次加入國際組織包括APEC、WTO都有加入可是當時的時候很多學者專家都覺得當時有一個很大的"},{"start":325.526,"end":332.339,"text":"必須要被考慮的點就在中國大陸的一個態度跟角色在CPTPP當中的時候我們是不是也面臨這樣的問題"},{"start":334.395,"end":359.368,"text":"我們在接觸的過程當中並沒有任何一個國家特別跟我們提到這樣子的一個概念沒有任何一個國家提到中國大陸的因素是我們現在還進不來的原因是這個樣子嗎因為他們現在也不是成員國阿對就是因為他們不是成員國所以確實沒有國家跟我們提到這個原因而且他們特別還是集中在就是要符合三原則而希望我們特別在共識局這邊加以努力"},{"start":359.848,"end":388.386,"text":"可是當然就我們的了解當然有些國家跟中國的經貿往來上面確實是互動比較密切可是這些國家不會單純只有因為這個因素在評估這些新成員的入會因為我在想說從過去APEC跟WTO的經驗過程當中的時候大陸的態度確實是影響到我們是不是能夠順利進去的一個很重要的一個點就是副代表對這部分有沒有什麼反對的看法"},{"start":390.101,"end":407.655,"text":"我們必須要講說中國確實是現在第二大的世界經濟體所以它跟很多國家有緊密的互動往來但是畢竟現在的國際形勢的狀況是跟以前是不同的所以我們現在所接觸的往來跟這些CPTPP國家"},{"start":408.095,"end":435.893,"text":"告訴我們的反應就是希望我們可以透過各種的方式包括我們的實質的經貿交流展現臺灣可以對CPTPP國家的供應鏈上面的貢獻因為你們現在是整個我們在要加入CPTPP當中的一個統籌的一個單位那很多的單位其實都要參與在這當中對於陸委會這邊你有沒有什麼特別的期待就陸委會應該要怎麼去做能夠會有助於我們加入CPTPP"},{"start":437.897,"end":462.202,"text":"因為我們現在都是個別在申請的新成員國所以我們基本上新申請國不會去跟其他國家做進一步的溝通這個是大家基本上面的運作規則所以入委會我們當然基本上不會特別去請入委會來協助但是我們當然在過程的專業意見我們也會遵行入委會的意見"},{"start":463.178,"end":477.827,"text":"選舉委員沒有特別請陸委會在這個部分就兩岸溝通當中的時候能夠有更積極的一個做法基本上是沒有的目前我們沒有特別請陸委會來針對CPTPP的案件來表示意見"},{"start":478.629,"end":508.149,"text":"OK 那我會這邊有沒有要特別做一個說明因為我看到我們所有的書面報告當中的時候對於這部分著墨也都很少那副主委這邊可以稍微講一下謝謝委員關注到這個議題那其實我們的立場很明確因為我們一直都是參與國際經貿組織已經有好幾次像剛剛委員講到APEC跟WTO在這個過程當中我們就是看每一個人的條件"},{"start":508.649,"end":525.293,"text":"符合條件的話就應該是可以參與那對於中國如果對這個部分有些政治框架的話我們是要表示要據理力爭的OK 那個我這邊特別補充一下就是經貿談判辦公室這邊因為我們要加入CPTPP這個過程當中因為我們在WTO當中其實是雙軌性的一個方式在做處理比方說我們對大陸這邊的一個貿易的一個條件跟其他國家有一些差異"},{"start":536.656,"end":550.414,"text":"我們進到CPTPP可能必須要一致化去處理所以對於這樣的問題我們要怎麼去因應請邁達邦這邊之後再給我一個很詳細的資料然後對於我們過去這幾年我們做了哪些努力也請給我一個書面的資料謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時21分）主席好，我想先請經濟部郭智輝部長、行政院經貿談判辦公室顏慧欣副總談判代表及陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長、顏副總談判代表及陸委會副主委。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。很感謝主席今天特別安排CPTPP相關主題的議題啦，經濟部之前公布的資料顯示，我們9月份的外銷訂單高達538億美元，年增率4.6%，基本上是熱的，連續7個月都正成長；國發會在9月底也發布了經濟景氣燈號是紅燈，表示臺灣目前的經濟熱度其實是很好的。可是我們在這裡面也看到了幾個點，在整個資通訊（ICT）產業當中其實都很不錯，可是在傳產的部分感覺就不是這麼一回事，像化學品的部分相較於去年同期是負8.5%，然後塑膠橡膠製品也負1.1%。如果看整個傳統工業的部分，我們重要的傳產指標，基本金屬的部分，相較於2021年（基期）只剩下74.9%，化學材料及肥料只有占74.6%，機械設備是86.9%，汽車及零件到89.4%。我為什麼講這個部分？就是說除了ICT高科技產業一枝獨秀外，其他傳產的部分，其實坦白說，我覺得衰退的感覺有點明顯。為什麼提到這個部分？是因為以目前來說，我們整個高科技產業的部分因為有資訊科技協定，所以讓臺灣相關的高科技產業走遍全球大概都還算是可以的，雖然川普說要課徵大陸關稅60%可能會影響到臺灣相關的產業，可是對高科技來說可能還是比較穩健，傳產部分可能就會比較吃力。因為今天我們特別提到CPTPP這個部分的時候，對於整個傳產的部分，我們希望它能夠有更大的保障，所以我們很希望知道整個CPTPP目前的進度到底是怎麼一回事？我想針對經濟部，因為經濟部在今天的報告裡面很直接講說，針對CPTPP的統籌單位是經貿談判辦公室，請問經濟部對於CPTPP這個部分目前有沒有做什麼樣的努力？有沒有什麼樣的分析報告出來？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我能不能夠請國貿署署長跟你報告？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["江署長文若：謝謝委員。首先我們有做國內法規的相關檢視，為了要符合CPTPP的高標準，所以目前國內的法規都已經符合這個高標準的要求。另外……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，你們覺得現在臺灣要加入CPTPP的最大阻力在什麼地方？"],["江署長文若：因為奧克蘭原則有三個要求，第一個就是我們要符合良好的貿易承諾，這個部分我們確實都有做到，還有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，最大的困難點在哪裡？"],["江署長文若：我想我們要積極地去尋求所有成員對於我們的支持，而且必須儘速地來成立我們入會的工作小組。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分的最大困難點在什麼地方，經濟部這邊有沒有評估？"],["江署長文若：有些國家有他們自己的考量，所以我們也特別針對這些國家去強化跟他們的互動，然後甚至有做相關的邀訪，邀請他們……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我想問一下經貿談判辦公室，因為我看經貿談判辦公室的書面資料當中直接表示，奧克蘭三原則當中，針對我們的高標準，還有一個比方說貿易承諾的部分，你直接提到的字眼就是所有與會國家均無異議，表示臺灣做得很好，既然是這樣的情況，你覺得現在臺灣要加入CPTPP的最大阻力在哪裡？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員的垂詢，針對這個部分，我們透過各種方式去接觸的過程中，確實大家對於我們符合高標準以及有良好的貿易紀錄沒有任何的疑義……"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有任何的疑義嘛！"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，沒有任何的問題，當然主要……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那我們應該就走得很順啊，可是我們從2021年9月申請到現在已經進入第四個年頭了。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為前半段他們都是在處理英國的入會問題，直到今年他們才開始有時間去處理新的成員國，對於新的成員國，他們就是用奧克蘭三原則來做審視，在我們接觸的過程中，他們特別提到共識決這個是希望臺灣要特別去努力的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，因為我在想說臺灣其實也不是第一次加入國際組織，包括APEC、包括WTO都有加入，可是當時很多學者專家都覺得有一個很大必須要被考慮的點就是中國大陸的態度跟角色，在申請加入CPTPP的過程當中，我們是不是也面臨這樣的問題？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們在接觸的過程當中並沒有任何一個國家特別跟我們提到這樣的一個概念。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有任何一個國家提到中國大陸的因素是我們現在還進不來的原因，是這個樣子嗎？因為他們現在也不是成員國啊！"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，就是因為他們不是成員國，所以確實沒有國家跟我們提到這個原因，而且他們特別還是集中在就是要符合三原則，希望我們特別在共識決這邊加以努力，可是就我們的了解，當然有些國家跟中國的經貿往來確實是互動比較密切，可是這些國家不會單純只因為這個因素在評估這些新成員的入會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為我在想說，從過去APEC跟WTO的經驗來看，大陸的態度確實是影響到我們是不是能夠順利進去的一個很重要的點，副代表對於這部分有沒有什麼反對的看法？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們必須要講的是，中國確實是現在第二大的世界經濟體，所以他跟很多國家有緊密的互動往來，但是畢竟現在國際情勢的狀況跟以前是不同的，所以我們現在所接觸往來的這些CPTPP國家告訴我們的反映就是希望我們可以透過各種的方式，包括我們的實質經貿交流，展現臺灣可以對CPTPP國家供應鏈上的貢獻，以取得我們的共識決。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為你們現在是我們要加入CPTPP的一個統籌單位，很多的單位其實都要參與在這當中，對於陸委會這邊，你有沒有什麼特別的期待？就是陸委員應該要怎麼做才能夠有助於我們加入CPTPP？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：因為我們現在都是個別申請的新成員國，基本上新申請國不會去跟其他國家做進一步的溝通，這個是大家基本上的運作規則，所以就陸委會，我們基本上不會特別去請陸委會來協助，但是在過程中的專業意見方面，我們也會徵詢陸委會的意見。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你們沒有特別請陸委會在這個部分，就兩岸溝通的時候能夠有更積極的一個作法？基本上是沒有的？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：目前我們沒有特別請陸委會針對CPTPP的案件來表示意見。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，陸委會這邊有沒有要特別做說明的？因為我看到你們提出的書面報告對於這部分的著墨也都很少，副主委這邊可不可以稍微講一下？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：謝謝委員關注到這個議題，其實我們的立場很明確，因為我們參與國際經貿組織已經有好幾次，像剛剛委員講到的APEC跟WTO，在這個過程當中，我們就是看每一個人的條件，符合條件的話就應該是可以參與，對於中國如果對這個部分有些政治框架的話，我們是會表示要據理力爭的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我這邊特別補充一下，就是經貿談判辦公室這邊，在我們要加入CPTPP這個過程當中，因為我們在WTO其實是以雙軌性的方式在做處理，比方說我們對大陸這邊的貿易條件跟其他國家有一些差異，我們進到CPTPP裡面可能必須要一致化的去處理，所以對於這樣的問題我們要怎麼去因應，請經貿談判辦公室這邊之後再給我一個很詳細的資料，然後對於我們過去這幾年做了哪些努力，也請給我一個書面的資料。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：好，沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員，列席官員請回座。","現在休息6分鐘，必要時延長1分鐘。","休息（10時31分）","繼續開會（10時38分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。下一位質詢請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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對不對"},{"start":312.318,"end":337.208,"text":"那我看的資料2024年我們衛生局網路稽查的商品件次跟實體稽查電次、電家次高達279,521次這是今年的對 今年的沒錯但是呢裁罰的件數也就是指違法行徑已經完成行政程序並且開提處分數的喔只有637件我想了解一下這個原因是什麼為什麼落差這麼大"},{"start":337.708,"end":340.809,"text":"跟委員報告這個52萬次的稽查次數、裁罰次數其實有包括了違反第15條中勘載、販售、使用等等我們目前截至10月30號為止我們的裁罰件數是1370件"},{"start":356.015,"end":358.016,"text":"這就是從去年的3月22號到今年的10月30號那裁罰的金額到目前是9千萬不過因為現在的社會氛圍讓我們必須要更加緊我們的裁罰力道跟裁罰的速度所以跟委員報告我們大概在10月30號有邀集各縣市"},{"start":373.96,"end":374,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":394.651,"end":420.345,"text":"但是這還是顯示一個很大的落差那個落差是除了地方政府進來之後我們就可以彌平這個落差呢還是我們還有哪些做法應該要來彌平因為我之前也有看到新聞報導是講說卡在行政程序上面所以我們的裁罰件數才落差這麼大因為剛才有這麼多委員在提醒所以我們會再跟教育部跟相關的部會來溝通怎麼樣在這件事情上做到更好的一些指責跟效果"},{"start":421.005,"end":447.786,"text":"我想具體的了解啦因為之前是有回到說我們的煙害防制組組長羅素英組長他是有講卡在行政程序嘛就算我們今天邀集的各個部會我們邀集的地方縣市政府一起來會不會最後又卡在行政程序呢我們正在解套這個行政程序能夠加速這個行政程序到底原因是什麼因為他需要約談然後需要做一些遞送的一些責任所以我們在建立一個更快速的SOP讓這個約談的速度加快"},{"start":450.208,"end":471.961,"text":"那這大概預計什麼時候會完成呢?我們一個月內給委員做報告好 謝謝那再來就是說因為其實我們民間也有反應希望可以編列更多的預算還有更多的稽查人力所以我想了解目前的一個進度是什麼?我們每一年給縣市的稽查人力的逐年都在上升以112年跟113年今年為例我們大概多了2500萬那明年114年如果預算能夠順利通過我們會多4000多萬給地方來做查處的動作"},{"start":479.659,"end":503.599,"text":"那人力的部分 含在裡面也含在裡面那這樣看起來跟總預算非常有關係那總預算跟我們的孩子的健康也息息相關啦所以還是希望就是在野黨的委員們可以一起來支持我們的總預算讓他可以儘速通關那再來就是說最後一個部分也想要請教一下部長跟副署長就是說針對我們目前這個新型態的煙品防制之前有說我們會做更多的宣導"},{"start":507.142,"end":523.277,"text":"目前宣導的一個方案是不是有請我們的兒少相關的委員一起來討論呢?這部分有沒有做?我們的宣導包括幼兒、國小、國中都有相關的專家來上到國中之後會有兒少代表進來"},{"start":524.418,"end":549.004,"text":"上到國中之後國中的這個宣導素材兒少代表會進來那幼兒的部分會有家長以及相關的幼兒專職教師會過來媽媽好那我想問一下那教育部的部分呢在校園那個宣導跟委員報告我們在課程教材教育這方面事實上會按照這個不同的這一些年齡教育程度裡邊分別有一些鼓勵老師發展許多的這些宣導的一些教材跟課程"},{"start":549.684,"end":549.804,"text":"所以我們內部的再來檢討"},{"start":578.857,"end":606.669,"text":"我希望就是說我們要確實的檢討啦不然我們用同樣過去的那個模式持續的進行我想我們人數還是會持續上升這個宣導等於有跟沒有是一樣的所以我要求因為我知道教育部也有兒少的代表好不好我們接下來我們應該會有新的宣導資料嘛對不對我想宣導資料我們一定會精進也邀請兒少專家一起進來來研商但是還真的是在源頭裡邊的一個阻斷我想那是一個非常重要的"},{"start":606.789,"end":627.219,"text":"讓我們老師能夠回到更專業的一個教學的一個工作我想因為青少年他們為什麼會抽電子煙常常都是因為同儕關係同儕的一些流行所以我們必須要讓他清楚的知道那個後果到底是什麼如果他不知道這個後果會對他的健康造成嚴重的影響的時候"},{"start":628.28,"end":629.74,"text":"請教育部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":431,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時18分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。因為剛剛葛委員也有關心有關於美國通知我們有一位性犯罪前科的美國籍人士的這個事件，我剛剛有聽到部長說目前已經清查完畢了，所以是指全臺灣各縣市的教育局都已經清查完畢，包含了學校、幼兒園、補習班、課後照顧中心，全部清查完畢了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們系統上是沒有，因為他要被任用有一定的規範，包含良民證，所以系統上是沒有這一個人的名字，但是我們也要求各地方政府現在全面清查。"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在是各縣市政府還在清查中嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["張委員雅琳：因為這個議題其實是一些家長會長告訴我的，大家非常關心這個題目，其實我有一個臨時提案，我希望教育部今天下午5點之前可以公布現在清查的進度，好嗎？讓大家知道各縣市現在的狀態，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為各地方政府清查需要一些時間，是不是明天下午？"],["張委員雅琳：明天下午前？"],["鄭部長英耀：對，明天下午。"],["張委員雅琳：好，明天下午前，讓我們知道各縣市是不是已經有查到幼兒園、小學、國中、高中……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會提醒。"],["張委員雅琳：還有這些補習班課後照顧，除了教室之外，還有一些可能廚工、清潔人員等等的。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，特別是兒童美語部分。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會列入重點。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分真的要拜託，部長一定要詳盡為所有家長、所有小孩來努力。","最後，我也想要再請教部長，是不是還有什麼方法可以更積極地來做呢？例如是不是可以更加強地去宣導一定要聘用有工作簽證的人才可以，這部分是不是可以……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想那是我們首要的目的、首要的目標。"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分請加強宣導，拜託、拜託、拜託部長。","接下來，我們要來談一下有關於今天的主題，也就是有關於電子煙的部分，待會請國健署副署長也一起上來，謝謝。根據世界衛生組織在2008年的報告指出，其實並沒有任何的科學證據電子煙能有效幫忙戒菸；其實在2019年WHO的全球菸草報告也已經明確指出電子煙是對健康有傷害的。2004年的報告就發現在歐洲、中亞及加拿大15歲青少年有25%曾經抽過菸，30%曾經使用過電子煙，20%在過去30天內使用過電子煙，所以我想這個數據清楚地告訴我們，電子煙對全球所有的青少年是有非常嚴重的危害，也是公共衛生非常重要的一環。我想請問部長，您知道根據衛福部的調查，目前大概有多少名的青少年正在使用電子煙嗎？有多少人使用過電子煙？"],["鄭部長英耀：就我所了解，按比例來看，國中大概有1萬9,000人左右，至於其他的比例，對不起，我忘掉了。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，我跟部長講一下好了，我們使用率從104年的1.9%到現在已經達到3.9%，整體來說是看那條黑色線，高中職的部分也已經來到……"],["賈副署長淑麗：8.8%。"],["張委員雅琳：也來到8.8%，2021年的實際數字是7.9萬人，其實我們的數字也是一直不停的在上升，非常的可觀。部長，我相信您也知道，就是尼古丁會對我們的青少年帶來嚴重的危害，包含成癮性的問題、青少年的大腦發展，甚至也有可能會造成潛在的癌症，甚至是肺部的疾病。這邊再跟部長分享一份報告，韓國有一份研究報告指出，有3萬名高中生使用電子煙，其罹患氣喘的機率是不曾使用電子煙的兩倍以上，所以電子煙可能也是一個嚴重影響氣喘的重要因子。但是就像剛剛葛委員提到的，我們明明是禁止販售電子煙的，可是大家只要拿出你的手機google一查，這就是頁面，就是有這麼多違法的廣告充斥在網路上面，讓我們的小孩可以輕易地取得。所以我請教副署長，我們現在其實有做查緝，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我看了資料，2024年衛生局網路稽查的商品件次跟實體稽查店家次高達27萬9,521次……"],["賈副署長淑麗：這是今年的。"],["張委員雅琳：對，今年的，沒錯。但是裁罰的件數，也就是指違法行徑已經完成行政程序並且開立處分書的只有637件，我想了解一下這原因是什麼？為什麼落差這麼大？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，這個52萬次的稽查次數、裁罰次數其實有包括了違反第十五條中刊載、販售、使用等等，目前截至10月30號為止，我們的裁罰件數是1,370件，這是從去年的3月22號到今年的10月30號，裁罰金額到目前是9,000萬。不過因為現在的社會氛圍，讓我們必須要更加緊我們的裁罰力道跟裁罰速度，所以跟委員報告，我們大概在10月30號有邀集各縣市積極來溝通怎麼進行加快裁處的一些速度跟裁處的力道。至於網路的部分，違法的案件數大概有三萬多，目前都正在積極地進行裁處，具體裁處件數到10月30號是74件，金額是3,290萬。"],["張委員雅琳：但是這還是顯示一個很大的落差嘛！"],["賈副署長淑麗：是，沒錯。"],["張委員雅琳：地方政府進來之後就可以弭平這個落差呢？還是我們還有哪些作法應該要來弭平？因為我之前也有看到新聞報導，是講說什麼卡在行政程序上面，所以裁罰件數才落差這麼大。"],["賈副署長淑麗：因為剛才有這麼多委員在提醒，所以我們會再跟教育部、相關的部會來溝通怎麼樣在這件事情上做到更好的一些職責跟效果。"],["張委員雅琳：我想具體地了解啦！因為之前菸害防制組羅素英組長有講卡在行政程序嘛！就算我們今天邀集了各個部會、邀集了地方縣市政府一起來，會不會最後又卡在行政程序呢？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們正在解套這個行政程序能夠加速。"],["張委員雅琳：這行政程序到底原因是什麼？"],["賈副署長淑麗：因為他需要約談，然後需要做一些遞送的責任，所以我們在建立一個更快速的SOP，讓約談的速度加快。"],["張委員雅琳：這大概預計什麼時候會完成呢？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們一個月內給委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。再來，因為其實民間也有反映，希望可以編列更多預算還有更多的稽查人力，所以我想了解目前的進度是什麼。"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們每一年給縣市的稽查人力都逐年在上升，以112年跟113年（今年）為例，我們大概多了2,500萬，明年（114年）如果預算能夠順利通過，我們會多四千多萬給地方來做查處的動作。"],["張委員雅琳：那人力的部分？"],["賈副署長淑麗：含在裡面，在四千多萬中。"],["張委員雅琳：也含在裡面，好，這樣看起來跟總預算非常有關係，總預算跟我們孩子的健康也息息相關，所以還是希望在野黨的委員們可以一起來支持我們的總預算，讓它可以儘速通關。","最後一個部分也想要請教一下部長跟副署長，針對目前新型態的菸品防制，之前有說會做更多的宣導，我想了解目前的宣導方案是不是有請兒少相關的委員一起來討論呢？這部分有沒有做？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們的宣導包括幼兒、國小、國中都有相關的專家來，上到國中之後會有兒少代表進來。"],["張委員雅琳：上到國中之後會有兒少代表？"],["賈副署長淑麗：就是國中的宣導素材會有兒少代表進來，至於幼兒的部分，會有家長以及相關的幼兒專職教師過來幫忙。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想問一下教育部的部分呢？在校園的宣導。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們在課程教材、教學方面，事實上會按照不同的年齡、教育程度分別有一些鼓勵老師發展許多宣導的教材跟課程。"],["張委員雅琳：我想部長，我們教材的宣導，其實我在學校裡，我真的是每個學期初都有看，但我自己會認為我們現在這個問題，電子煙的人數急遽上升，在急遽上升的狀況之下，我們現在宣導有沒有效？我們的宣導品是不是真的能夠打中我們的青少年、打中我們孩子的心？這是一個很大的問題耶！到底有沒有效？這件事情你們有評估嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：這我們內部再來檢討。"],["張委員雅琳：我希望你們要確實檢討，不然用過去同樣的模式持續進行，我想人數還是會持續上升，這個宣導等於有跟沒有是一樣的。所以我要求，因為我知道教育部也有兒少的代表，好不好？接下來我們應該會有新的宣導資料，對不對？我們會有嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想宣導資料我們一定會精進，也邀請兒少專家一起進來研商，但是在源頭裡面的阻斷，我想那是非常重要的。"],["張委員雅琳：我認同啦！我們剛剛在做非常多的討論……"],["鄭部長英耀：讓老師能夠回到更專業的教學工作。"],["張委員雅琳：青少年他們為什麼會抽電子煙？常常都是因為同儕關係啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["張委員雅琳：同儕的一些流行，所以我們必須要讓他清楚知道那個後果到底是什麼，如果他不知道這個後果，會對他的健康造成嚴重影響的時候，他可能就會覺得好玩嘛！很帥啊！很酷啊！我們試試看沒有關係。所以這個部分一定要找青少年一起來討論，這部分請部長跟署長、副署長一定要承諾我這件事情，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有問題，這一定。"],["張委員雅琳：好，相關一些宣導的措施跟宣導品的規劃時程，如果有的話，也希望在一個月內送到我辦公室，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員、謝謝部長。","接下來有請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":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那麼我的意思是其實政府也有給資源包括這個輸出銀行那麼奧地利、斯洛伐克那但是目前只有立陶宛、捷克跟斯洛伐克我也期許我們現在在過去已經有這樣的一個配套方案在這裡的時候也希望這個外交單位跟經濟單位能夠一起攜手那麼就像是部長您所說的"},{"start":531.109,"end":543.627,"text":"那麼另外當然國發會還有就是中東歐的投資基金所以其實我們是有兩大支柱來往前那麼目前到底除了波蘭之外另外的這些中東歐國家是不是也可以有更多的規劃"},{"start":544.813,"end":574.11,"text":"是 其實在以波蘭跟所謂的捷克、斯洛伐克、立陶宛等波羅的海國家有將近6千萬那在未來我想俄烏戰爭總是會結束啦那我們未來其實這個地方對區國民是處女地那現在的一個經營之後開發結果我們跟捷克的關係很明顯其實最重要的是他們過去也受蘇聯的統治跟現在俄羅斯的威脅所以雖然說麵包很重要"},{"start":575.25,"end":602.117,"text":"愛情也是很重要的啦所以在這個方面總和外交的路線那整個中東歐不只是這個投資投融資工具我認為怎麼樣讓我們的科技跟他們合作的時候去共創合作在一些可以雙贏的產業項目上這個他們每個國家都有自己在當時前蘇聯時代特別的在他的這個最好的科技我們台灣的科技跟他互補合作"},{"start":602.577,"end":604.96,"text":"所以我覺得從這個角度來講我們空間很大呼應這個就是最後3秒鐘啦呼應這個部長所講的其實從數據上面就可以看得出來其實投資歐洲或中東歐整個這個表現上面是很好的"},{"start":617.534,"end":617.594,"text":"同意,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":275,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時15分）謝謝主席，請林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：因為美國總統昨天揭曉，確定由川普再度回白宮擔任美國總統，所以今天當然我們就會來關注有關於接下來臺灣跟美國之間的關係。事實上，昨天同樣在外交委員會的時候我已經問過國安局蔡明彥局長了，當時蔡局長很明確的說，不論是民主黨或共和黨，民進黨的執政現在來到了第九年，我們同樣的有面對過共和黨的總統，就是川普，我們也面對過現任的民主黨的總統──拜登，所以不論是誰上臺，或是哪一個政黨來執政，所謂的制中、挺臺或友臺的政策其實是不會改變的。","我們看到這是中央社所整理的，川普對於臺灣的政策，他曾經說過，如果中國進入臺灣，當然他是用進入這個字眼，他會對中國課徵150%到200%的關稅；對中的政策，他則是認為反正中國的商品要進來，我就要拉高關稅至少60%；在關稅政策當中，他是認為所有的商品進入到美國都要有20%的統一稅率，對中國當然就會拉到60%到100%；外界也都認為川普就是所謂的孤立主義。所以這整體來看起來確實符合昨天蔡局長所說的，不過就外交專業來看，這個面向感覺上川普的手段似乎會更凌厲，針對他有提到的部分，其實我們關注的除了中國之外，他特別提到的是有關於進口到美國的關稅部分，這個部分外交部跟經濟的相關單位有沒有做一些了解，是不是真的會如他所言？因為昨天我聽到吳志中政次在接受訪問的時候也說，選舉的時候難免有一些選舉語言。對於外交部來說，現在川普確定上任之後，有沒有好好的去研析川普的這些言論到底是選舉語言，還是未來可能他的外交政策的執行方向？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，當他當選之後，這就不只是選舉語言，我們要很認真的看待，因為政見也是他對選民的承諾，他可能會落實為政策。但是我認為用孤立主義去形容川普的路線是不太精確，他比較是屬於保護主義，他其實也是需要藉全球的力量來幫助美國偉大，臺灣就是可以幫助美國偉大的，所以我們是一種夥伴關係，我覺得這個是最深層、最根本的。以前是從地緣政治、臺灣是不是人家棋子，現在不是，臺灣本身有主體性，大家都也知道。","第二，臺灣是一個民主國家，跟美國政府，包括行政跟立法，尤其是國會，我們的價值觀是一致的，再來我們現在怎麼樣讓經濟利益一致，這個就是我們要跟著他的政策方向要做一點調整，他的政策方向是全球性的，對臺灣來講，這個不只是威脅，更是機會，臺灣要沉著應變，我們要把這一個挑戰轉化成，未來美國偉大，那臺灣也很偉大，我覺得要讓臺美關係利益一致，所以我覺得用孤立主義去形容美國川普總統的路線是不太精確的。"],["林委員楚茵：部長的言下之意就是接下來在經貿上面的交流，包括你剛剛特別提到的榮邦計畫是非常重要的，但是除了臺美之間的關係之外，本席也特別關注現在我們跟歐洲盟邦的部分，我知道剛剛前面幾位委員都特別提到了有關於中東歐，不論是投資或是融資的部分，但是在這個質詢之前，我想先舉一個例子，過去有一個非常有趣的故事是說，商人到非洲去，看到非洲的朋友之前都沒有穿鞋子，比較樂觀的商人就會說，哇！這個是充滿了機會，因為大家都需要一雙鞋子，但是悲觀主義者就會說，不得了了，他們都不穿鞋，我們不用賣了。這個當然是一個過去臺商在行走江湖的時候很喜歡講的故事，但是我想要問的就是，目前川普上臺之後，對於歐洲的變化跟關心，以及我們怎麼來看接下來在中東歐的部分？","我想舉出一個我整理出來的數據，這個是跟經濟部國貿署所要到的，與2016年相比，我們跟歐洲還有中東歐這些國家的貿易數字，到2024年歐洲是成長55%，在中東歐的部分成長98%，顯然我們在經貿上面是拉升的，這個也跟部長希望要做的一樣。但是你們有沒有特別去了解，川普上來對我們的歐洲友邦、盟邦，或者是我們在經營歐洲關係上面，會不會有什麼樣的改變？"],["林部長佳龍：G7包括美國跟歐洲的英、法、德、義等國家，我們跟G7這些年來，我想他們對臺海和平穩定的關心，包括自由航行權，現在整個全球化雖然有一點倒退到區域主義或者比較屬於雙邊主義，但基本上，臺海的和平穩定是符合包括美國跟歐洲國家的共同利益。我們現在在歐洲因為空間非常大，所以你看到這個成長，俄烏戰爭發生之後，即使俄烏戰爭未來結束了，其實俄羅斯的威脅還在，那他們更能夠體會到中國對臺灣的威脅，所以這個是在印太戰略裡面的兩端現在已經結為一體，以這個做基礎，然後我們跟他們的經貿有很多互補，所以這個就是我們現在開拓的空間。比如說中東歐的計畫，我們現在進一步要擴展到波蘭，因為波蘭未來在烏克蘭的重建裡面可能扮演很重要的角色。比如蔡英文前總統這次到法國，我們很多企業界去，法國會覺得我們台積電投資在德國Dresden，希望也投資在法國，法國的高科技，包括航太等等，其實有非常多跟臺灣也是可以合作的，所以我覺得歐洲不只是地緣政治上未來跟我們是連動的，而且在經貿利益上還有很大的空間。","所以我在講說總和外交，就是如果價值外交是愛情、理念相近，那經濟外交就是麵包，要吃得飽，所以我們現在總和外交不能夠只是講說價值怎麼樣，也要講經濟上的利益關係。跟川普，我很聽得懂他的語言，因為我做過民選的立法委員、市長，所以我很能夠體會，我有時候蠻欣賞他的講話，要順這個趨勢來布局，所以我覺得自助人助，我們不要小看我們臺灣的重要性，我們也不要把威脅極大化，用到什麼疑美論、疑賴論、疑軍論，我們要自信一點，勇敢自信世界同行，走向新的偉大的美國，那臺灣也能夠偉大，應該去找出這個交集。"],["林委員楚茵：本席有特別找出來，因為我上一屆是在財政委員會，我們輸出入銀行有一個中東歐的融資基金，目前這個融資基金的方案就是立陶宛、匈牙利、斯洛伐克、捷克，還有剛剛部長提到的波蘭，我們馬上會有波蘭的大使即將到任，我對他當然也賦予期望。"],["林部長佳龍：對，公布了，我有先跟你報告。"],["林委員楚茵：劉大使即將復任，我的意思是，其實政府也有給資源，包括輸出入銀行，但是目前只有立陶宛、捷克跟斯洛伐克，我也期許，我們在過去已經有這樣的一個配套方案在這裡的時候，也希望外交單位跟經濟單位能夠一起攜手，就像是部長您所說的，另外還有國發會中東歐的投資基金，所以其實我們是有兩大支柱來往前。目前除了波蘭之外，對於其他的中東歐國家是不是也可以有更多的規劃？"],["林部長佳龍：是，波蘭跟捷克、斯洛伐克、立陶宛等波羅的海國家有將近六千萬，未來我想俄烏戰爭總是會結束，而這些地方過去對我們來說是處女地，在經營之後現在開花結果，像我們跟捷克的關係就很明顯，其實最重要的是他們過去也受到蘇聯的統治，現在也受到俄羅斯的威脅，雖然麵包很重要，愛情也是很重要的，所以在這個方案、總和外交的路線上，整個中東歐不只是投融資工具，我認為怎麼樣讓我們的科技跟他們來做合作、共創，在一些可以雙贏的產業項目上，畢竟他們每個國家當時在前蘇聯時代都有自己特別的、最好的科技，我們臺灣的科技可以跟他們互補合作，所以我覺得從這個角度來講，我們的空間很大。"],["林委員楚茵：最後3秒鐘，呼應部長所講的，其實從數據上面就可以看得出來，投資歐洲或中東歐在整個表現上是很好的，這個部分外交部或者相關經濟單位其實也要拿出實證，不然的話，常常就會因為比如說什麼駐館改名，又或者發生了相關的事情，就會影響到兩邊的合作。總之，實質的合作其實是對雙邊國家都是有利益的。謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：同意，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，部長請回。接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0544899ac24bf4e846013be6769c271087b1cbb87bdf8ddece352fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:12:24 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那個委員你可以再回到The Hill那個報紙你可以看到他已經把那個拿掉了他已經把它拿掉了下架了是吧你說把他拿掉了是吧不是我 我沒有辦法拿掉是他把那個拿掉就是說"},{"start":126.769,"end":140.694,"text":"他代表他承認他聽錯了我在講那是一個禮拜就是在11月2號前一個在10月底的時候我們外交部國傳司通常會請各國記者大概有20個然後我們說我們來閒聊一下"},{"start":142.065,"end":169.857,"text":"那個接受訪問跟閒聊是兩個不一樣的事情接受訪問我用字當然會很精準所以不是接受訪問是聊天有十幾個國家的記者在嗎記者對閒聊而且有那個就是有錄音記錄我們在撥給阿丁他自己承認他聽錯了所以你可以看到那些不存在那至於委員講的發案格率他是根據一個錯誤的報導做出一個這樣的回應所以我就不曉得怎麼去說因為這一句話是不存在的嘛"},{"start":170.805,"end":180.051,"text":"市長所以你有沒有講你對這個美國這個選舉是非常非常擔心這個事業有沒有講有吧是有講不是正式嗎不是我是對就是說"},{"start":181.027,"end":203.275,"text":"我是對於那個uncertainty very very worried那這個而且我講的是怎麼樣我剛才講提到說我是講歐洲人是因為我回答我當然知道他要問我是台灣的概念對不對那我就跟他講你可以把原文再找回來我說我剛從歐洲回來所以我可以跟那個記者說明說其實歐洲國家是比我們更加擔心的所以我們有擔心"},{"start":203.795,"end":231.442,"text":"歐洲比我們更擔心那我相信如果說那個意思在我想每一個國家尤其是美國是我們最重要的盟邦我們當然會對於他們的一個選舉的發展我們會關心應該是關心不是憂心我是基於我的國家利益我大概要回答出我們非常關心這樣的一個選舉結果所以是關心不是憂心第二個更重要要問你那句話你有講說"},{"start":232.383,"end":235.434,"text":"要是川普放棄台灣嗎?應該他不至於放棄台灣吧?"},{"start":236.547,"end":263.665,"text":"那時候應該是在聊天談到某些狀況對不對放棄台灣是記者提的然後我把他句子再repeat一次對 因為我基本上認為我剛才其實前面我有被接受剛才是回答諮詢齁我基本上認為一個民主自由擁有高科技台灣是被認為世界上第七大高科技國這樣的國家中華民國穩定存在是符合美國的利益所以我他的提問我不認為會成立的"},{"start":264.949,"end":266.551,"text":"川普動算對台灣的經濟影響至少有這幾個層面"},{"start":282.416,"end":310.436,"text":"這個剛剛有在談了他說進口的商品關稅要提高18%以上大部分是10%到20%是他還要施壓貿易夥伴貨幣要升值美元是要貶值的另外施壓貿易夥伴要提高環保跟勞工的待遇我們的臺美21世紀貿易倡議就是三大面向農業、環保跟勞工待遇這個影響也會很大事實上那影響最大的會是什麼這是我現在要跟你談的"},{"start":312.519,"end":333.292,"text":"調查對美貿易順差擴大的國家我另外講一個重要的事情我們去年對美國出口762億美元美國現在是我們最大的前三季今年的前三季美國也是我們單一最大的出口國了我們賺人家的錢去年就賺了美國355億美元然後他現在"},{"start":338.786,"end":365.957,"text":"他的證件裡面很重要就是要去追查這個嘛然後追查以後他的連帶就是要調高關稅嘛那你怎麼因應我們對委員報告在之前我們想我們過去到美國去輸出到美國去大概是高科技產品比較多啦那這個另一個就是因為台積電到美國去投資所以那個相對的會變成金額會比較高"},{"start":367.096,"end":372.622,"text":"那麼在未來我想臺積電會持續在美國再擴大他的投資這個也是一個趨勢"},{"start":374.554,"end":396.667,"text":"那我們要讓美國的這一些能夠了解這個是過去我們出超到美國是幫助美國建立他的這個產業基礎所以並不是說我賺他很多錢而是去幫助美國建立他的產業基礎所以我想這個要多溝通啦現在最明顯的影響是這樣"},{"start":399.38,"end":408.546,"text":"他對大陸要、中國大陸要60%嘛對不對對我們應該是10到20嘛對不對然後事實上大家沒有注意到更嚴重的更重要的是什麼美國他就沒有關稅問題他是0嘛"},{"start":409.986,"end":434.501,"text":"所以剛講我們的台商如果是在大陸的他一定從60%那邊他可能就往美國跑或者是回來這是一個點嘛 對不對那第二個對我們來講對我們台灣的台商來講一方面是在中國大陸的一方面如果在台灣的關稅要提高那這個我們要趕快注意好不好所以你剛有答應你一個月一個月內你把哪些產業會受到影響更重要的更重要的要怎麼幫他們一個月內要提出來好不好因為現在民眾最關心的老講是台積電"},{"start":436.94,"end":453.234,"text":"台積...因為他已經講說你搶了他的...我們搶了他的台積...那個晶片的生意嘛你也應該很清楚嘛這...這...不是我們搶他的...我們是替他...替美國人心善的啦這會賺錢啦對啦對啦 但是他...事實上川普的美國優先裡面可能是...他就是希望美國有製造業"},{"start":454.975,"end":471.445,"text":"他們能夠工廠 有工廠能夠重新再開工 讓他們的人民有工作嘛所以這個老實講我們是要小心啦他所謂的提高關稅的最終目的應該是車啦美國人有工作機會所以我們第一個人才會不會流過去應該是車啦 車的問題會比較大 電動車啦因為這部分中國可以輸出的嘛所以美國應該是都汽車的王國啊"},{"start":478.689,"end":479.771,"text":"我昨天問你臺電的這個員工非常辛苦"},{"start":496.343,"end":524.936,"text":"他們大抬風天然後去搶修為了我們人民去搶修這個停電那昨天我特別要求特別要求說有兩個事情你們後來做的回覆我們今天把它定下來好不好第一個昨天有提到危險津貼的事情我今天很明確跟葛珀丁說你知道嗎他們冒著生命危險冒著生命危險他們的危險津貼一個小時只有105塊好不好你回去研究把它提高好不好這是第一個第二個有超時工作的問題"},{"start":526.058,"end":543.297,"text":"有超時工作的問題有員工跟我講有些超時工作不是只有兩天從7-11早上7點到晚上11點有些人連續工作四天這太危險了好不好所以這部分超時工作問題也同時來處理好不好好主席已經站起來了我不要再講話了謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":338,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時12分）請郭部長及外交部吳次長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長、外交部吳次長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：早。部長，你先休息一下，我先請教吳次長。"],["吳次長志中：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：川普當選，當然我們都要先恭喜，希望臺美關係也是越來越好。你講話一向也是很精準，不過最近有引起一個風暴，我們今天把它講清楚，好不好？我們今天來講清楚。你後來有解釋，好像不是接受媒體訪問，可是當初媒體這樣講，就是你接受美國國會山報訪問的時候提到，老實講，引起爭議是兩個，你說對美國選舉，一方面在觀察，一方面非常的擔心（very,very worried），對不對？這個引起討論，這是一個點。我今天要跟你進一步討論更重要的，這個報導裡面講到，吳志中說要是川普放棄臺灣，那你很納悶。你看一下，上面有字幕。那你很納悶，他還能怎樣讓美國再次偉大。這就是川普常常在說的話。因為他將在亞太失去友邦對美國的支持跟威信。我們一個一個來。這次對你提出質疑的是共和黨前亞太主席、國際政治觀察家方恩格，方恩格你應該熟，對不對？他很有代表性。"],["吳次長志中：我不認識他。"],["張委員啓楷：不熟？"],["吳次長志中：對。"],["張委員啓楷：他很有代表性，他說你這個談話非常失禮、不恰當，你怎麼解釋？"],["吳次長志中：委員可以再回到The Hill那個報紙，你可以看到他已經把那個拿掉了……"],["張委員啓楷：有下架了，是不是？你說把它拿掉了，是不是？"],["吳次長志中：不是我，我沒有辦法拿掉，是他把那個拿掉，就代表他承認他聽錯了。我再講一次，那是一個禮拜前，就是在11月2號。前一次在10月底，外交部國傳司通常會請各國記者大概有20個，然後我們說來閒聊一下，接受訪問跟閒聊是兩件不一樣的事情。接受訪問，我的用字當然會很精準……"],["張委員啓楷：所以不是接受訪問，是聊天？有十幾個國家的記者在嘛！"],["吳次長志中：對，閒聊而且有錄音紀錄，我們再播給他聽，他自己承認他聽錯了，這是第一件事，所以你可以看到那些不存在了。至於委員講的方恩格律師，他是根據一個錯誤的報導，做出這樣的回應，所以我就不曉得要怎麼去說。因為這一句話是不存在的。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，所以你有沒有講，你對美國選舉是「非常、非常擔心」這個字眼？有沒有講？有吧？是有講，但不是正式嘛！"],["吳次長志中：不是。我是對於uncertainty very very worrried，而且我講的是怎麼樣？我當然知道他要問的我是臺灣的概念，我就跟他講。我們可以把原文再找出來。我說我剛從歐洲回來，所以我可以跟那個記者說明，其實歐洲國家是比我們更加擔心的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們有擔心，歐洲比我們更擔心，是不是這樣？"],["吳次長志中：我想每一個國家，尤其美國是我們最重要的盟邦，我們當然對於他們選舉的發展，總會關心，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：我們會關心，應該是關心，不是憂心。"],["吳次長志中：我是基於國家利益，我當然要回答我們非常關心這樣的選舉結果。"],["張委員啓楷：所以是關心，不是憂心，對不對？"],["吳次長志中：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要，要問你那句話，你有說要是川普放棄臺灣，他應該不至於放棄臺灣吧？那時候應該是在聊天，談到某些狀況，對不對？他問你……"],["吳次長志中：放棄臺灣是記者提的，我把他的句子再repeat一次。我剛才也有回答質詢，基本上，我認為一個民主自由、擁有高科技的國家，臺灣被認為是世界上第七大高科技國，這樣的國家──中華民國穩定存在符合美國的利益，所以我不認為他的提問會成立。"],["張委員啓楷：所以第一個是關心，不是憂心。"],["吳次長志中：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你不認為川普會放棄臺灣，我們下兩個定論，好不好？"],["吳次長志中：對。"],["張委員啓楷：請部長來。"],["吳次長志中：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：我們來談產業的發展，川普當選對臺灣經濟的影響，至少有這幾個層面，這個剛剛有在談了。他說進口的商品關稅要提高10%以上，大部分是10%到20%，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：他還要施壓貿易夥伴貨幣升值，美元是要貶值的。另外，施壓貿易夥伴要提高環保跟勞工的待遇，臺美21世紀貿易倡議就是三大面向，農業、環保跟勞工待遇，這個影響也會很大。事實上，影響最大的會是什麼？這是我現在要跟你談的，調查對美貿易順差擴大的國家。部長，我跟你說一件重要的事情，我們去年對美國出口762億美元，今年的前3季，美國已經是我們最大單一出口國了。我們賺人家的錢，去年就賺了美國355億美元，現在他的政見裡面很重要的就是要去追查這個，追查以後連帶就是要調高關稅，你怎麼因應？"],["郭部長智輝：我們過去輸出到美國的大概是高科技產品比較多，另一個就是因為台積電到美國去投資，所以相對的變成金額會比較高，那麼在未來台積電會持續在美國再擴大他的投資，這也是一個趨勢。我們要讓美國能夠了解這一些，過去我們出超到美國是幫助美國建立產業基礎，並不是我賺他很多錢，而是去幫助美國建立產業基礎，所以我想這個要多溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：多溝通。"],["郭部長智輝：多溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：現在最明顯的影響是，他對中國大陸要60%，對不對？對我們應該是10%到20%，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：事實上，大家沒有注意到更嚴重的，更重要的是什麼？美國沒有關稅問題，他是零，所以剛剛講臺商如果是在大陸的，他一定從60%那邊，可能就往美國跑或者回來，這是一個點，對不對?"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，對我們來講、對臺灣的臺商來講，一方面是在中國大陸的，另一方面如果在臺灣的，關稅要提高，這個我們要趕快注意，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你剛剛有答應一個月內整理出哪些產業會受到影響，更重要的是要怎麼幫他們。一個月內要提出來，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：因為現在民眾最關心的，老實講是台積電，他已經說我們台積電搶了他的晶片生意嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：你也應該很清楚，這不是我們搶他的，我們是替美國人生產的。"],["張委員啓楷：一起賺錢。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["張委員啓楷：事實上，在川普的美國優先裡面……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要去……"],["張委員啓楷：他就希望美國有製造業，他們的工廠能夠重新再開工，讓他們的人民有工作嘛，所以老實講我們是要小心啦，他所有提高關稅的最終目的是什麼……"],["郭部長智輝：最重要的應該是車啦！"],["張委員啓楷：美國人有工作機會，所以第一個，我們的人才會不會流過去？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是車啦，車的問題會比較大，電動車啦，那都是中國在輸出的嘛！美國以前是汽車王國啊，現在他們想要拉回來，所以他們的稅金會加很多。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你說大陸那邊的影響比較大啦，我們雖然影響比較少但也還是要注意啦。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，特別是人才，半導體的人才不要被搶走，這個要注意。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：我昨天問你，台電的員工非常辛苦，颱風天剛過嘛，他們在大颱風天要去搶修，為了我們人民去搶修停電，昨天我特別要求兩個事情，你們後來做了回復，我們今天把它定下來，好不好？第一個，昨天有提到危險津貼的事情，我今天很明確跟部長說，你知道嗎，他們冒著生命危險，但他們的危險津貼一個小時只有105塊，請你回去研究把它提高，好不好？這是第一個。"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，台電有超時工作的問題，有員工跟我講，有些超時工作不是只有2天喔，就像7-11，從早上7點到晚上11點，有些人是連續工作4天，這太危險了，好不好？所以這部分的超時工作問題也同時來處理，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：主席已經站起來，我不要再講話了。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，部長請回座。","待會鄭正鈐委員質詢之後，我們會休息。下一位質詢請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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目前通報的部分是針對學生的人身安全的部分對嘛 所以沒有電子煙部長 所以這塊可不可以允諾"},{"start":492.523,"end":492.743,"text":"那結果勒?現在?"},{"start":522.233,"end":549.691,"text":"在搜尋引擎上面你隨便打電子煙販售的網站一搜一大把啦齁各種品牌各種口味各種廣告的標語不曉得副署長您自己有沒有上網搜尋看看這就是你們所謂源頭主角的成效嗎到底這些商家有沒有把國家的法規放在眼裡這是怎麼回事你們有沒有通報機制你們到底怎麼跟這些業者平台來配合"},{"start":550.75,"end":571.499,"text":"報告委員,針對這個有關我們跟Google他們協助的部分其實我們是協助這個就是衛福部這邊然後我們有綠色通道的部分就是說各部會它其實基本上它只要有法源的部分我們這邊都會幫忙那如果沒有法源的部分我們其實就是幫忙協助電子煙有法源嗎?"},{"start":572.847,"end":594.788,"text":"有嘛,後面,對嘛,我們今天整個活動都是在講有法源他要被禁止,結果禁止得不好嘛。呃,境外的部分目前沒有法源。我現在講的,喔,您說他把網站,欸我們今天找到一個問題喔,所以您現在,那您要,您都有確定這些主機都在國外嗎?我待會回去就稽查喔,那在國內的你們要不要處理?"},{"start":595.589,"end":620.658,"text":"主機在國內要不要處理?要不要配合?而且你剛剛的意思是說你們跟衛福部配合嘛你們只是幫忙衛福部聯繫MetaGoogle,是這樣嗎?這就是你們能做的嗎?報告委員,我們還有另外做一件事,就是有關點TW域名的部分我們也做了處理那經過衛福部查,查總會有一百...所以是用域名來算境外,還是用主機?基本上...副署長,這個您是專家,您要了解喔,搞清楚喔"},{"start":622.532,"end":641.19,"text":"難道育民是TW主機就在台灣嗎?不見得 但是因為點TW育民可以在台灣可以由TW來處理我這 副市長您能不能針對現在這個狀況一週之內提出一個現在的你們的這個現在查緝的方式跟衛福部配合的方式啊?報告委員 副市長"},{"start":642.745,"end":657.271,"text":"不好意思,我是副署長,這是我們部裡的司長,抱歉,因為就是域名的部分是我們部裡面在處理,那我們就是署裡面的部分,我們協助的部分是針對就是說跟Google他們就是打聲招呼"},{"start":663.334,"end":676.071,"text":"其實有時候打招呼也是不容易的還有我們有幫忙的部分是那個C2C的那些業者然後我們也是會督促他們副組長我理解我相信你用心良苦但是我提醒您"},{"start":677.517,"end":684.924,"text":"所以你們各個部會不要再用聯絡這些廠商打招呼都很困難這種方式來回應但我了解你很用心這個回去處理一下"},{"start":697.717,"end":720.654,"text":"因為這還不是唯一一個年輕人遇到的問題我都不放這些廣告放這些廣告是違法這也不是廣告這就是年輕人會遇到在網路上看到的東西再來還有更離譜的是當然教育部有這個AI的準則我們年輕人也很會用AI但是結果啦現在在這些AI的平台上面你竟然只要問一個問題AI幫你整理出所有的電子煙的網站"},{"start":722.695,"end":731.001,"text":"這樣子的一個狀況請教一下教育部、衛福部、數發部跟法務部的官員到底哪一個部會來主責啊AI幫他推薦電子煙哪一個部會主責我本來要說主席謝謝時間暫停但已經停了對不起再給我一點時間所以教育部長站出來了"},{"start":749.448,"end":754.829,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長"},{"start":774.773,"end":788.06,"text":"各部會的代表是不是可以承諾協同教育部去建立一個緊密的校園淹害防治的機制包含介治後續的通路剛剛其實有 委員有提到這個現在是誰主責就淹害跟委員報告淹害防治當然目前是衛福部但我想包含剛才委員所關心的"},{"start":801.3,"end":802.221,"text":"各位再30秒好不好"},{"start":827.093,"end":849.729,"text":"好 我們現在看到一個很嚴重的問題啦速發部通茶網有個案外案出現了就是我們這一次發現速發部的這個通茶網不小心變成詐騙集團的廣告平台變成關鍵字的累積但是我們現在發現各級大專院校包含私立跟國立都變成了詐騙集團連結的跳板"},{"start":851.75,"end":864.856,"text":"你隨便一搜一大堆的學校我不想唸出來待會你們自己回去搜尋我們連結都會附上這些東西點下去呢直接跳過去就會變成什麼變成詐騙集團的我不想唸出來啦超差部署社團啦"},{"start":872.159,"end":895.669,"text":"直接都是從校園裡面連過去全部的東西都是配息高配息連高雄市教育局都進去了國立大學到今天連台灣大學都進去了這是速發部的這個通查網的一個案外案部長我們現在這種寄生上流2.0詐騙集團的連結寄生到不只是我們的速發部的連結連大專院校"},{"start":898.811,"end":922.827,"text":"臺灣大學都中招直接變成詐騙集團的詐騙王子古海明燈教育部長是不是跟速發部要一起聯手來處理一下這個問題兩週內處理成果可不可以提供出來這個部分我們請會後教育部、速發部跟葛委員再詳細的報告跟說明謝謝主席緊急事態大家一起來幫忙"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":352,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時3分）謝謝主席。有請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好。今天真的很感謝我們的召委安排這樣的議題，我想所有官員也應該都是把我們的學員、學童都當成我們自己的孩子在關照，但是近期真的有很多事件需要我們關心。首先，本席昨天接獲家長陳情，有一名涉犯未成年兒少性猥褻案的前科人士違法入境來臺，移民署接獲AIT通知緊急發函，據網傳的公文，當然密件公文是不能外傳的，但是網路就開始傳出去了，10月24號的時候教育部好像有發函要請各級學校、補習班清查，是不是曾經聘任或運用該名人士？這個字還用得很特別──「聘任」或「運用」。請教一下部長，目前全國各級學校、補習班是不是已經清查完畢？有沒有縣市教育局清查的結果？還有學校、補習班的回報？有沒有這個性猥褻前科的外籍人士被聘用的紀錄？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們確實有發這個通知，要提醒我們所有學校跟補習班。"],["葛委員如鈞：提醒很棒，我說有沒有完成清查？"],["梁司長學政：報告委員，因為外籍人士要聘用進來的話，必須要提供類似良民證這樣的申請。"],["葛委員如鈞：對啊！我們知道啊！"],["梁司長學政：所以系統在申請的時候就……"],["葛委員如鈞：為什麼需要發這個東西呢？你們應該知道沒有啊！你為什麼還要發？"],["梁司長學政：是，但是我們還是會去提醒，所以說是「通知」，提醒各位……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以就不用清查嗎？現在通知完了，清查結果回來了沒？因為你們也覺得可能有漏洞、有黑數嘛！"],["梁司長學政：報告委員，因為是通知，而在系統上、在申請的時候就會擋掉，有些是因為部分縣市政府他們比較擔心，自己會進行清查。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以到底我們能不能確保他沒有被運用、沒有被聘任？教育部能不能在此確保？"],["梁司長學政：如果從我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：不行嘛！"],["梁司長學政：從機制上應該是會擋掉，因為不應該違法聘任。"],["葛委員如鈞：那能不能確保嘛？對嘛！你不能嘛！什麼時候會完成清查？有沒有訂一個deadline？"],["梁司長學政：如果委員覺得我們需要，我們也可以請各縣市政府來清查，但只是說會不會每一次有一位進來，我們就每次都要啟動各縣市清查。"],["葛委員如鈞：不是，現在這一位因為有密件的問題，家長非常憂心，是不是三日內可以協助？我覺得不是把這個責任就丟到地方，教育部是不是已經清查過內部沒有這個聘用紀錄了？你們自己內部清查過了嗎？清查完了嗎？"],["梁司長學政：我們系統上面是沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有這個人？"],["梁司長學政：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以你們自己已經完成自己的清查？是各縣市政府？"],["梁司長學政：聘任因為是在縣市政府聘任，所以如果有需要，必須要請縣市政府來協助。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，還是希望你們三日內要確認他是不是有受僱於任何學校或補習班，我覺得從你們內部的資料去確認，當然外部的有交出資料的，你們就進行統整好不好？三日內，部長可不可以允諾？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，我想這是沒有問題，因為我們從系統、從地方大家合作，再進一步的確認。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，你提到系統兩個字，我覺得這次要稍微檢討一下，就是說未來這樣的事件有沒有一個更快速的清查機制？這個我們未來再來討論。","接下來我們討論今天電子煙的這個議題，部長，我想校園電子煙氾濫的議題，很多一線教師、家長都非常擔心，菸害防制法明令禁止電子煙已經一年多了，但是電子煙顯然沒有絕跡，甚至昨天還有媒體報導，一名未成年高中生在IG上面貼了一張圖片，然後說你要什麼牌子、口味的文字，就被認定有販售意圖，被開罰20萬，當然如果他確定有這樣的意圖、他甚至有這樣的行為，當然不應該，要開罰！但是也許會不會有一些年輕人搞不清楚這個玩笑的界限等等，我想確認一下教育部有沒有掌握20歲以下因為不理解還是亂搞而誤觸了法網？有沒有相關的人員、數額、金額被罰款多少？有沒有這樣的一個掌握？他未成年，搞不清楚狀況。"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意委員剛才所提的，確實有一些青少年與同儕開玩笑……"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！有。那有沒有掌握20歲以下觸法人數？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個部分，目前我們確實是沒有這個資料。"],["葛委員如鈞：掌握一下，一週內提出好不好？因為我覺得學生在成長當中，教育部的責任就是要協助他們成長，所以我們應該要掌握他們的狀況，可以嗎？一週內提出，20歲以下，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：有需要跨部會配合的再配合一下。另外我想剛剛非常多委員都提到了，這個件數真的是遠低於我們所了解的電子煙的現況，不然我們就不用有今天的專報，但是教育部長，你真的了解現在這個情況的嚴重程度嗎？高中職以下學生，你知道多少人裡面就有一個人說自己有吸食電子煙？你知道這個比例嗎？我們都知道人數，什麼8萬人、10萬人，但你知道比例是多少嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，校園內確實我們學生是比較少的，但是……"],["葛委員如鈞：110年就是8.8%了，今年很可能就已經破10%了，照這樣計算起來，10個人很可能就有1個人，如果我數字有錯，可以更正好不好？因為後面有人歪了一下頭。但是大家要掌握這件事，不要看8萬、10萬，你可能不理解這件事情的嚴重性，為什麼會發生這個？你說外面有8%、10%，8萬、10萬，只有38件，這個當然我還是要非常感謝第一線教育人員有警覺心，而不是零件，他們還是找到了一些，但是這很顯然是通報機制的問題。我想請教一下部長，今天可不可以允諾，其實使用電子煙並不是明定的校安通報項目，這個通報稽查的整個過程也非常模糊不清楚，我想請問一下部長，今天可不可以當場允諾──對高中以下校園吸菸的案件，包含使用電子煙的案件，無論是透過現有的校安機制或其他方式，可不可以明定一個明確的處理機制、通報流程SOP？畢竟教育現場的通報是不是能夠啟動後續轉銜機制，通報是最重要的關鍵，這個可不可以允諾？不然我們前線的人員、家長搞不清楚啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，在許多校園的一些菸害或者相關的一些暴力，我們確實是有一個SOP的……"],["葛委員如鈞：那這個有沒有？我們現在是電子煙專報。"],["鄭部長英耀：電子煙這個部分，我想我們都是在菸害防制裡面的一個……"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有通報、稽查的流程？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們本來就有……"],["葛委員如鈞：那是不是校安通報的項目？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是校安，因為都是屬於菸害防制裡面的一個項目……"],["葛委員如鈞：我在這裡問，雖然我們國會改革法案遇到一些挑戰，我們還是不認為官員可以說謊，使用電子煙到底是不是明定的校安通報項目？我講這句話的時候，你們後面的同仁搖頭說不是，但你剛剛跟我說是，到底是還是不是？差了2,100倍的數字，到底是還是不是？顯然就是通報有問題嘛！十分之一的人，一班10個人裡面有1個人有電子煙，還不算黑數，你只有38件，是不是通報出了問題？是不是沒有包入校安通報的機制？是還是不是？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，目前通報的部分是針對學生人身安全的部分。"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！所以沒有電子煙，部長這塊可不可以允諾？要有完整的通報機制，可以嗎？回去……"],["鄭部長英耀：好的，我想它既然是法令上禁止的……"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！要有嘛！謝謝啦！我們要關注學員。","再來麻煩數發部。剛剛你們的報告還有今天專報內容都有提到，您剛剛也很榮幸的、也很用心的說你們會跟Meta、Google大型平臺去建立這些相關的準則規範，結果現在在搜尋引擎上面，你隨便打電子煙販售的網站，一搜一大把啦！各種品牌、各種口味、各種廣告標語，不曉得副署長自己有沒有上網搜尋看看，這就是你們所謂源頭阻絕的成效嗎？到底這些商家有沒有把國家的法規放在眼裡？這是怎麼回事？你們有沒有通報機制？你們到底怎麼跟這些業者平臺配合？"],["陳副署長慧敏：報告委員，有關我們跟Google協作的部分，其實我們是協助衛福部這邊，然後我們有綠色通道的部分，就是各部會基本上只要有法源的部分，我們這邊都會幫忙，如果沒有法源的部分，我們其實就是幫忙協助……"],["葛委員如鈞：電子煙有法源嗎？有嘛！後面……"],["陳副署長慧敏：境外的部分……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們今天整個活動都是在講有法源，它要被禁止，結果禁止的不好嘛！"],["陳副署長慧敏：境外的部分目前沒有法源。"],["葛委員如鈞：我現在講的……你是說他把網站……我們今天找到一個問題囉！所以您都有確定這些主機都在國外嗎？我待會回去就稽查喔，那在國內的你們要不要處理？主機在國內的要不要處理？要不要配合？而且你剛剛的意思是說你們跟衛福部配合嘛，你們只是幫忙衛福部聯繫Meta、Google，是這樣嗎？這就是你們能做的嗎？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，我們還有另外做一件事，就是有關於「.tw」域名的部分，我們也做了處理，經過衛福部查察，總共有一百……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以是用域名來算境外，還是用主機？副署長，這個您是專家，您要了解喔，搞清楚喔，難道域名是tw，主機就在臺灣嗎？"],["牛司長信仁：不見得，但是因為「.tw」域名在臺灣可以由TWNIC來處理。"],["葛委員如鈞：副署長，你能不能針對現在這個狀況，一週之內提出一個你們現在查緝的方式、跟衛福部配合的方式？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員……"],["陳副署長慧敏：不好意思，我是副署長，這是我們部裡的司長……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，我臉盲，抱歉。"],["陳副署長慧敏：因為域名的部分是由我們部裡面在處理，而署裡面、我們協助的部分是針對跟Google他們打……"],["葛委員如鈞：打聲招呼？"],["陳副署長慧敏：其實有時候打招呼也是不容易的，我們還有幫忙的部分是C2C的那些業者，我們也是會督促他們。"],["葛委員如鈞：副署長，我理解、也相信你用心良苦，但是我提醒您，Google公司的董事、總經理目前是賴清德總統府轄下的委員會的其中一位委員喔！所以你們各個部會不要再用聯絡這些廠商，打招呼都很困難這種方式來回應，但我了解你很用心，這個回去處理一下，因為這還不是唯一一個年輕人遇到的問題，我都不放這些廣告，放這些廣告是違法，這也不是廣告，這就是年輕人會遇到、在網路上會看到的東西。","再來，還有更離譜的事，當然教育部有AI的準則，我們年輕人也很會用AI，但是現在在這些AI平臺上，你只要問一個問題，AI幫你整理出所有電子煙的網站，這樣子的一個狀況，請教一下教育部、衛福部、數發部跟法務部的官員，到底哪一個部會來主責？AI幫他推薦電子煙，是哪一個部會主責？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跟委員報告美國是一個民主國家那川普總統得到很大的民意的支持我們要當一回事我們要認真地來去理解他政策背後的民意基礎那確實比如你剛剛提到的幾項比如說你剛剛提到的我們採購了兩百多億美金他還沒有交付武器嘛那現在美國又通過國防這個工業這個戰略的法案那是不是可以有案外包"},{"start":294.224,"end":297.127,"text":"這也是我們擔心的,如果他之前他沒有辦法交給我們是因為俄烏戰爭還有疫情的關係所以他的產業鏈沒有辦法及時供應,如果我們現在把他的外包的這個部分放在重點,未來"},{"start":315.328,"end":320.633,"text":"有可能他把他做不來的現在推到我們台灣來幫他做代工然後回去以後又再高價再賣回台灣這是我們非常擔心的所以這一點先在這裡提醒所以這個不是我們認為其實是可行的他應該要交給我們不管他用什麼樣的方式可是我們在明年的預算上面已經看到他不斷的在加價囉所以我們在這裡再一次提醒因為他還沒有就任可是他未來的做法是以"},{"start":343.451,"end":343.591,"text":"什麼方向?"},{"start":371.345,"end":371.545,"text":"經濟外交及融幫計劃"},{"start":388.486,"end":398.614,"text":"你講的我們過去就是一直這樣做可是我們採購了很多我們要的結果都沒有這是我們要提醒的所以我們就要把這個說清楚嘛也讓外界了解你之前說得不夠清楚嗎之前說得不夠清楚嗎我們現在要說的是他現在再度入主他的做法可能會更強烈因為他必須面對選民的交代他已經78歲了所以在這裡你過去如果講得不夠清楚那你未來我相信也不會很清楚因為他的態度會比你更強烈"},{"start":417.307,"end":417.367,"text":"美國總統馬文君"},{"start":435.55,"end":447.415,"text":"上來以後當然你要接續外交的這個工作不是那麼容易可是像之前南非要求我們撤出首都我們的代表處要撤出首都的部分現在還有立陶宛這樣子的一個狀況那我想要請教一下因為過去我們的2021年的時候外交部宣布要在波羅的海立陶宛的首都設立駐立陶宛台灣代表處雖然我們後來英文改成台灣"},{"start":463.822,"end":484.547,"text":"台灣跟台灣人其實是不一樣的可是我們也說服自己說這是一樣而且是一個重大的突破不管這會不會對我們有所矮化或者是我們自我安慰可是當時蔡前總統在臉書還特別指出這是重要的外交突破然後是別具意義的重要外交的一個成果當時"},{"start":487.014,"end":515.589,"text":"政府還由臺山投資管理顧問公司﹐大概有2億歐元的中東歐投資基金﹐去投資立陶宛三家新創公司﹐包括雷射公司、生技醫療公司﹐還有一個金融科技公司﹐那其中﹐像雷射公司由臺山﹐協助跟臺灣的企業建立合作的關係﹐而且透過委託公研院成立的﹐"},{"start":517.13,"end":517.27,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":535.026,"end":535.826,"text":"政府投資立陶宛已經花費在中東歐投資基金有多少經費"},{"start":555.343,"end":584.189,"text":"剛剛委員提到不管是雷射、生技、金融這些頭籠只有它的程序那事實上金額也不大啦但是具有代表性意義比如說我們以雷射這個雷射世界上最好的雷射這個飛鳥雷射是立陶宛的國寶欸能夠跟我們合作把它發揚光大對我們的部長部長那個多好你可以用書面到時候再提供給委員會我現在要問的是政府投資立陶宛花費的中東歐投資基金有多少經費"},{"start":585.498,"end":588.44,"text":"像你剛講的那個數位金融那大概是千萬美金啦那以雷射這個我們跟公園院的合作我們是合資啦那這些都在我想總共大概在兩千萬美金啦這個數字我跟妳講投融資是經過嚴格的審查這是商業行為護理雙贏啦我們要看到我們的護理跟雙贏在哪裡請把立法院的部份的移工相關資料"},{"start":614.637,"end":634.164,"text":"提供相關的資料就是投資基金有多少經費然後你說的共榮雙贏的這個部分也把結果在一個禮拜之內提供給我們相關的資料好不好好那就這個部分抱歉跟主席借一點點時間我們在之前就是外交部以俄烏戰爭中"},{"start":636.22,"end":639.623,"text":"吳東地區醫院遭炮火摧毀,然後我們用公務預算,我們大概編了3000萬美金的這樣的經費,是要提供給烏克蘭居民在初級醫療照護設備的這個部分。我們那時候簽的備忘錄,我想請教一下,我們在裡面我們要的資料,比如說我們因為有要求要台灣"},{"start":661.461,"end":661.501,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":682.847,"end":685.729,"text":"我們同仁會請他準備資料我們希望要有數量還要有他的種類因為他是要提供這是救命的我們已經給錢給一段時間了如果當烏克蘭他們在暫時需要這些醫療的這些不管是什麼樣的用品裝備我們到現在都還沒有辦法提供相關的資料我不知道我們是給了什麼"},{"start":711.724,"end":712.225,"text":"有數量嗎?有,後面有數量"},{"start":732.45,"end":755.166,"text":"請教一下這是在台灣採購還是在歐洲買的?在歐洲這是我們雙方的合作案那我們是他在歐洲買所以你以上念的剛剛部長念的這些公司在歐洲都有他的場上都有他的據點然後都有現貨是嗎?你的意思是這樣嗎?講清楚喔"},{"start":758.158,"end":766.733,"text":"是不是從歐洲有現貨我現在不太清楚但是他確實是台商供應的然後由捷克的這個協會去採購的"},{"start":768.447,"end":772.43,"text":"我在這裡先提醒一下,裡面有一家加碩生醫,這個部分也是我們臺商的新創公司,也是臺灣的新創公司,他做的艾普定免疫定量分析儀,他做的是發言指數用的,這個部分我們不曉得一個新創公司傑克為什麼會知道,因為他買的是要烏克蘭戰場上需要的,聽我講完,因為時間關係,不好意思。"},{"start":794.902,"end":803.704,"text":"這個部分如果在台灣他根本沒有在歐洲有這樣子的一個現貨我不知道為什麼他要去買這個東西再加上發言指數是在特別比如說我們在醫療上面要測說你為什麼發言要找出問題點可是你在戰場上面不是被炸斷手腳不然就是有很嚴重的傷害一看那就是有發言還要做這樣的發言指數的測試嗎我們到底為什麼是買這些東西我現在只是先提供一個"},{"start":823.328,"end":828.79,"text":"他可能還有其他的問題我們需要的是數量因為你既然花了我們國人的納稅錢而且這是救命錢你有沒有用到位我剛剛說的這個加速聲音他過去有什麼樣的記錄在我們買快篩的時候他曾經代表國家隊他花了我們4億多的錢跟韓國進口結果他是不合格的"},{"start":848.439,"end":848.499,"text":"馬文君"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時1分），謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早安。剛剛有聽到部長特別提到，因為現在美國總統大選已經明朗化，川普也會再度入主白宮，過去我們也曾經跟川普總統有過，在他上一任的時候，不管政策面或者在各方面的一些領導風格，大概我們都有交手過，他現在又再度入主白宮了。這一次他可以當選，雖然大家覺得他非常的狂妄自大，可能有一些作法也是跟一般人不太一樣，可是他還是順利地當選了，而且不是微幅，不像剛開始的時候很多評論或者媒體或民調，他們不是差距很小，甚至差距還滿大的，這個部分很重要的因素是因為在選舉過程當中他表示要繁榮經濟的承諾其實是受到很多民眾的接受，或是願意相信他，所以再次讓他當選。我想這個部分對我們來說，我們可能要面對的，就是他過去的作法，還有他在競選過程當中也說了很多的話，大概就是要我們付更多的錢，所以對於川普總統未來對臺灣的態度，我想方法也不困難啦，只要他提出來的，他要的錢我們能夠給，他大概也不會太為難我們，除非兩岸還有其他因素的情況之下才會有不同的狀況。","部長，就這個部分，剛剛我是非常認同你所提到的，過去在國防武器上面，他們至少有200億美元以上金額的武器裝備還沒有如期提供給我們，所以就這個部分，外交部也認同應該要據理力爭，不可以矮化我們自己，這一點本席非常認同，我也希望未來是朝這個方向，尤其外交部應該可以著力更多，跟國防部可以聯合起來，為我們的國防安全及我們的防衛力量，可以精準的到位，我想這個才是對我們有利的。可是在這個過程當中，像他這一次可以順利當選，他非常推崇一個人，就是特斯拉的執行長馬斯克，可是馬斯克對臺灣也不是很友善，所以今天如果他們兩個湊在一起的時候，我們先來回想他們在上一任的作為，當初因為中國電信公司可能成為間諜跟網路攻擊的載台、載體，所以他對華為跟中芯通訊實施了出口管制，可是後來因為要求大陸購買美國的農業跟能源的商品以後，他就取消了中芯通訊的管制，他一向都是把利益放在首位，對我們也是如此，川普在選舉過程當中接受媒體訪問時有談到，如果解放軍對臺灣展開武統的時候，美國不是派出第七艦隊到臺灣海峽來解除我們的封鎖，然後也不是拿導彈瞄準中國的軍事要塞或重要基建，它是要宣布對中國加關稅，所以從它很多的作法及它的言談之間，很明顯的，利益還有它的生意其實都是放在第一位，這個部分我們外交部還有沒有什麼比較積極的應對作法？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，美國是一個民主國家，川普總統得到很大的民意支持，我們要當一回事，我們要認真的去理解他政策背後的民意基礎，確實，比如您剛剛提到的……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為時間的關係，我們是不是就剛剛的……"],["林部長佳龍：比如您剛剛提到的……"],["馬委員文君：對，我們要怎麼做？"],["林部長佳龍：我們採購了二百多億美金，它還沒有交付武器。那現在美國也有通過國防工業戰略的法案，是不是可以友岸外包，讓臺灣也可以參與這些國防產業，這個就是一個可以多贏的局面……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這個也是我們擔心的，如果他之前沒有辦法交給我們是因為俄烏戰爭還有疫情的關係，他的產業鏈沒有辦法即時供應，如果我們現在把他的外包這個部分放在重點，未來有可能它把它做不來的推到我們臺灣來幫它做代工，回去以後，再高價又賣回臺灣，這是我們非常擔心的，這一點先在這裡提醒，所以這個不是我們認為其實是可行的，它應該要交給我們，不管它用什麼樣的方式，可是我們在明年的預算上面已經看到它不斷的在加價了，所以我們在這裡再次提醒，雖然他還沒有就任，可是他未來的作法是以商業利益或者他們美國的利益為優先的時候，我們希望外交部一定要站得住腳……"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["馬委員文君：今天人要有人格，國要有國格，我們希望我們外交部，尤其在第一線面對國外這些相關國家的時候，應該是這樣的態度，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我跟委員報告，其實我在推的經濟外交與榮邦計畫跟川普總統是同一個政策方向，所以我相信會對接得很好……"],["馬委員文君：什麼方向？"],["林部長佳龍：經濟外交與榮邦計畫，其實……"],["馬委員文君：這可以做什麼？你跟他……"],["林部長佳龍：我們和美國之間的外交也必須建立在共同的經濟基礎上，所以除了投資、創造就業、採購……"],["馬委員文君：部長……"],["林部長佳龍：比如我們臺灣有很多採購，也可以增加對美國的採購，這個他很重視，包括國會議員……"],["馬委員文君：部長，你講的，我們過去就是一直這樣做，可是我們採購了很多我們要的，結果都沒有，這是我們要提醒的，所以……"],["林部長佳龍：所以我們就要把這個說清楚，也讓外界瞭解……"],["馬委員文君：你之前說得不夠清楚嗎……"],["林部長佳龍：不是我們單方面的問題。"],["馬委員文君：之前說得不夠清楚嗎？我們現在要說的是他現在再度入主，他的作法可能會更強烈，因為他必須面對選民的交代，他已經78歲了，所以過去你如果講得不夠清楚，未來我相信也不會很清楚，因為他的態度會比你更強烈，不是你跟他一樣……"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["馬委員文君：而是他占住了全球的所有主導地位，所以我們能不能抗衡、能不能不卑不亢，就像剛剛部長講的，我們要不卑不亢，這是在這裡，他還沒就職之前，我們先提的，未來還有機會。","另外還要談到的就是部長上來以後，當然你要接續外交這個工作不是那麼容易，可是像之前南非要求我們的代表處要撤出首都的部分，現在還有立陶宛這樣子的狀況，我想要請教一下，過去在2021年的時候外交部宣布要在波羅的海立陶宛的首都設立駐立陶宛臺灣代表處，雖然後來英文改成「Taiwanese」，「Taiwan」與「Taiwanese」其實是不一樣的，可是我們也說服自己，說這是一樣的，而且是一個重大的突破，不管這個會不會對我們有所矮化，或者是我們自我安慰，當時蔡前總統在臉書還特別指出這是重要的外交突破，是一個別具意義的重要外交成果。當時政府還由台杉投資管理顧問公司用大概2億歐元的中東歐投資基金去投資立陶宛三家新創公司，包括雷射公司、生技醫療公司，還有金融科技公司，其中雷射公司由台杉協助跟臺灣的企業建立合作關係，而且透過委託工研院成立的超快雷射研發創新中心，有6個合作案，政府還鼓勵臺灣的半導體供應鏈業者採用立陶宛的雷射技術，還有金融科技公司，我們這個投資案是中東歐投資基金歷來投資金額最高的……"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["馬委員文君：那都是在政府的協助之下，未來它有可能成為歐洲大型晶圓製造公司，這是當時政府所說的話。我想要請教一下，政府投資立陶宛已經花費中東歐投資基金有多少經費？"],["林部長佳龍：剛剛委員提到，不管是雷射、生技、金融，這些投融資有它的程序，事實上，金額也不大，但是具有代表性意義……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，有多少？到目前為止政府投資立陶宛……"],["林部長佳龍：比如我們以雷射為例，世界上最好的雷射……"],["馬委員文君：經費就好……"],["林部長佳龍：飛秒雷射是立陶宛的國寶，我們能夠合作，把它發揚光大，對我們的不管是工業……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，部長，那個多好，到時候你可以用書面再提供給委員會，我現在要問的是政府投資立陶宛花費的中東歐投資基金有多少經費？"],["林部長佳龍：以你剛剛講的那個數位金融，大概是千萬美金，以雷射，我們跟工研院的合作是合資，這些總共大概在2,000萬美金這個數字……"],["馬委員文君：2,000萬美金……"],["林部長佳龍：我剛剛講，投融資是經過嚴格的審查，這是商業行為……"],["馬委員文君：部長，沒關係，過程……"],["林部長佳龍：這個互利雙贏啊！"],["馬委員文君：我們要看到我們的互利和雙贏在哪裡，請把這個部分……"],["林部長佳龍：我們如果能夠把立陶宛的飛秒雷射發揚光大對我們很好……"],["馬委員文君：提供相關的資料，就是花費投資基金有多少經費，還有你說的共榮雙贏這個部分，也在一個禮拜之內把結果提供給我們相關的資料，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：好。抱歉！跟主席借一點點時間。","之前外交部以俄烏戰爭中烏東地區醫院遭炮火摧毀，我們大概用公務預算編了3,000萬美金這樣的經費，是要提供給烏克蘭居民在初級醫療照護設備這個部分，關於我們那時候簽的備忘錄，對於我們要到的資料我想請教一下，因為裡面有要求要臺灣的設備，其中三分之一的經費，大概就1,000萬美金，將近有3億臺幣，這個部分是要跟臺灣的廠商採購，我記得上一次回答是這是在歐洲直接採購，是不是？到底是在歐洲採購，還是在臺灣？"],["林部長佳龍：我有請我們同仁準備資料，那當然是向我們的廠商……"],["馬委員文君：我們一直沒有拿到，我們一直沒有拿到……"],["林部長佳龍：我有請他要趕快跟委員報告。"],["馬委員文君：我們希望要有數量，還要有它的種類……"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["馬委員文君：因為這是救命的，我們已經給錢給一段時間了……"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["馬委員文君：如果烏克蘭在戰時需要這些醫療，不管是什麼樣的用品、裝備，我們到現在都還沒有辦法提供相關的資料，我不知道我們是給了什麼，或者到底錢是怎麼花的，這個部分……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，這裡面有5家主要的廠商，以及它的數量、產品……"],["馬委員文君：這是在臺灣買的，還是在歐洲買的？"],["林部長佳龍：包括像明基三豐、嘉碩生醫、醫揚科技、宇心生醫、鼎眾股份有限公司……"],["馬委員文君：部長，這個部分我有看到，有數量嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有，後面有數量。"],["馬委員文君：好，請教一下，這是在臺灣採購還是在歐洲買的？"],["林部長佳龍：在歐洲。"],["黃司長鈞耀：它是在歐洲，這是我們雙方的合作案，我們是……"],["馬委員文君：它在歐洲買，所以你以上唸的……"],["黃司長鈞耀：對，它在歐洲……"],["馬委員文君：剛剛部長唸的這些公司在歐洲都有據點，且都有現貨，是嗎？你的意思是這樣嗎？講清楚喔！"],["黃司長鈞耀：是不是歐洲有現貨，我現在不太清楚，但是它確實是臺商供應的，由捷克的這個協會去採購的。"],["馬委員文君：我在這裡先提醒一下，裡面有一家嘉碩生醫，也是臺灣的新創公司，它做的艾普定免疫定量分析儀是測發炎指數用的，我們不曉得一個新創公司捷克為什麼會知道，因為它買的是要烏克蘭戰場上需要的……","聽我講完，因為時間上關係，不好意思！這個部分如果在歐洲根本沒有現貨，我不知道為什麼它要去買這個東西，再加上測發炎指數是比如我們在醫療上面要測你為什麼發炎，要找出問題點，可是在戰場上面不是被炸斷手腳，不然，就是有很嚴重的傷害，一看，就是有發炎，還要做這樣發炎指數的測試嗎？我們到底為什麼是買這些東西？我現在只是先提供一個，它可能還有其他的問題。","我們需要的是數量，因為你既然花了我們國人的納稅錢，而且這是救命錢，我們要知道，你有沒有用到位，我剛剛說的這個嘉碩生醫，它過去有什麼樣的紀錄？在我們買快篩的時候，它曾經代表國家隊，它花了我們四億多的錢跟韓國進口，結果它是不合格的，就是嘉碩生醫，現在它也在這裡出現，我們希望外交部應該要給一個明確的答案，還有儘快提供它的數量，謝謝。"],["黃司長鈞耀：謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，請外交部儘快提供資料給馬文君委員辦公室。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054afffb1d4464ab1e413be6769c271087b1cbb87bdf8ddece31053e709b707af575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:03:17 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in China所以造成60%的關稅的需要"},{"start":336.857,"end":350.088,"text":"而且部長今天吃了兩個區塊一個當然我們要保護可能因為在中國生產而美國在中國產業增加60%關稅而受到影響這是一個區塊第二個區塊是我們台灣的產業怎麼乘勝追擊"},{"start":359.275,"end":362.323,"text":"也就是因為它對中國產業增加了60%關稅之後我們怎麼協助我們台灣的產業趕快搶攻這個區塊"},{"start":368.652,"end":396.379,"text":"我認為我們應該是要將台灣的產業高質化沒錯避開中國的這個競爭我們現在就在做啦是我們現在其實因為我們慢慢的已經希望台灣產業是脫離中國的陰影嘛我們過去是綁在一起的還好我們從蔡英文政府上任之後我們慢慢在做一個切割的動作我們也提醒我們的產業"},{"start":397.859,"end":418.73,"text":"也就是事實度依照整個全球的一個氛圍已經不再是一個依賴中國的時代了而是我們要走出自己的一條路所以在這段時間確實我們所有的產業已經都慢慢轉型可是轉型的沒有那麼快那我們甚至可以利用這個區段"},{"start":420.831,"end":449.134,"text":"我們趕快把所謂轉型的一個量能提高是量能提高之後讓他們能夠進入到這一個增加所謂的訂單的區塊美國訂單的區塊因為你中國產業增加60%一定會有一個空窗期出現嘛是那我們怎麼去抓住這個時機點這個很重要所以我們要拜託部長是不是可以幫我們盤整到底"},{"start":449.975,"end":460.728,"text":"美國有可能在第一波對中國產業課徵增加60%關稅的產業是哪些現在他沒講嘛現在川普並沒有講沒有講是哪些產業他只有說我會對中國的產業增加課徵60%關稅"},{"start":470.546,"end":496.096,"text":"那麼我們要密切去注意到底哪些那我們要針對這些產業怎麼跟台灣來做一個相對應不論是它的量能提高、它的轉型然後進而去搶的這個訂單部長這多久可以把它稍微把這個區塊能夠有一些樣化"},{"start":497.349,"end":513.104,"text":"我們會觀察然後我們的智庫會再快速的收集資料然後來整理我認為一個月之內應該可以得到這個好 部長一個月一個月我們希望這一個月把這些資料很完整的提供給"},{"start":514.145,"end":526.678,"text":"本辦公室,然後讓我們如何來協助我們的相關產業搶得這一波可能川普上任之後所面臨的整個經貿的改變。」"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":305,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時3分）謝謝召委，是不是請部長？"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我昨天已經針對要課保護稅的部分質詢過你，因為現在已經確定是川普當選，課保護費的部分，昨天部長和國發會主委講得很清楚，你們說你們不認為這會發生，因為這後面所影響的層面太大，因為又有整個市場面的問題，甚至是在未來所有晶片產業的發展，保護費這個部分可能是一個選舉時候的語言，所以我相信很清楚。但是現在我們想要了解的是，川普當選之後經貿情勢的改變，你們有掌握嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是有的。"],["陳委員亭妃：有掌握？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：掌握的程度如何？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，川普主張的是美國優先，至於單邊主義，我想他上任以後會有底下幾個影響：第一個，對全球自由貿易的發展將會有一些影響，因為臺美產業供應鏈的關係是屬於互補互利，預期雙方仍將會維持穩定的貿易關係。川普也曾經表示，將對中國的產品加徵60%的關稅，所以我國業者因應全球供應鏈的移轉，已經降低對中國貿易的依賴以及投資，那麼我們對美出口的中間財，提升美國的生產效率，對美國的投資可以創造美國就業的機會，強化臺美供應鏈的體系。如果他加徵了10%的關稅，我們又有什麼影響呢？他可能會墊高美國的進口成本，美國的經濟受負面影響，導致美國的消費需求下降，會影響全球產品對美的出口。而經濟部會做什麼事情呢？第一、持續地推動境外關內，透過以大帶小的方式，協助臺灣產業供應鏈到美國拓展商機，建立強韌供應鏈及擴大合作。第二、持續與川普政府溝通，讓美國了解臺灣是美國最重要的夥伴。第三，我們會密切關注川普就任後的經貿政策。以上報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我從你所講的，臺美之間從現在已經在協談的這些穩定的經貿關係，我想不會改變，因為川普從過去擔任總統的時候，跟臺灣基本上就是友好的。當然，美國優先，他們會以美國優先的利益考量，但是因為臺灣是一個很重要的貿易夥伴，所以在這個貿易夥伴的前提之下，他不可能隨意去放棄，所以這個部分穩定的狀態我覺得我不擔心。但是現在大家所擔心的就是，他可能會對全球去課徵這所謂的10%關稅，這個部分，部長剛剛有說，我們會來協助，可是如果依照全面性的思考，也就是說，如果要課徵這百分之十，他其實還有很多的關卡，沒錯！現在在整個參、眾議院的結果好像也是川普會占比較優勢，在這樣的前提下，他提出來，有可能參眾這個部分會比較容易通過。但是這事事關重大，這並不是他們決定了就好，他們必須面對他們國內的產業，而且關稅提高未必對美國是有利的，所以當他要對全球關稅提高百分之十時，我相信這個壓力會出現，不會是這麼容易的。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是另外一個區塊是在中國產業加徵百分之六十，我反而覺得這個部分，依照川普過去的態度、擔任總統那四年的態度，這是極有可能馬上會發生的。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，這極有可能馬上發生，對於這些產業，部長，你們有去掌控他要加徵60%關稅的這些產業跟臺灣的關係嗎？我們可不可以利用這個區塊、這個空窗去增加我們廠商的競爭力？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指教，這部分我們會回去趕快就這個命題做深入的研究，我們應該會很快地提出一些協助臺商如何轉移他的生產基地，如何讓他不會因為他是made in China，而造成60%關稅的需要。"],["陳委員亭妃：而且部長，今天是兩個區塊，一個當然我們要保護可能是在中國生產，卻因美國在中國產業增加百分之六十關稅而受到影響的，這是一個區塊。第二個區塊是，我們臺灣的產業怎麼乘勝追擊？也就是他對中國產業增加了百分之六十的關稅之後，我們怎麼協助我們臺灣的產業趕快搶攻這個區塊？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為我們應該是要將臺灣的產業高值化。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯。"],["郭部長智輝：避開中國的競爭。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們現在就在做啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在其實因為我們已經慢慢地希望臺灣產業能脫離中國的陰影，我們過去是綁在一起的，還好從蔡英文政府上任之後，我們慢慢在做一個切割的動作，我們也提醒我們的產業，也就是審時度勢，依照全球的氛圍，已經不再是一個依賴中國的時代了，而是我們要走出自己的一條路，所以在這段時間，確實我們所有的產業已經都慢慢轉型，可是轉型的沒有那麼快，我們甚至可以利用這個區段，趕快把所謂轉型的量能提高，量能提高之後，讓他們能夠進入到增加美國訂單的區塊。因為中國產業增加百分之六十關稅，一定會有一個空窗期出現，我們怎麼去抓住這個時機點很重要！我要拜託部長，是不是可以幫我們盤整？到底美國有可能在第一波對中國產業增加課徵百分之六十關稅的產業是哪些？現在川普並沒有講是哪些產業，他只有說會對中國的產業增加課徵百分之六十的關稅，那麼我們要密切注意到底是哪些？我們要針對這些產業怎麼跟臺灣來相對應，無論是透過量能提高、轉型，進而搶得這個訂單？部長，多久可以稍微讓這個區塊有一些樣化？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會觀察，我們的智庫會快速地蒐集資料，然後來整理，我認為一個月之內應該可以得到……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，一個月，我們希望這一個月把這些資料很完整地提供給本辦公室，看我們如何來協助相關產業搶得這一波川普上任之後所面臨可能的經貿改變。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員發言掌握非常精準，感謝。部長，請回座。"],["陳委員亭妃：我怕被主席罵。"],["主席：不敢！"],["陳委員亭妃：我怕被主席關麥克風。"],["主席：不敢！","下一位請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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了的那這些產業佔我國國內非常重大的一個比例那怎麼辦呢?這個部分我們大概會透過數位化跟低碳化的兩個措施來協助"},{"start":490.627,"end":504.978,"text":"這一些比較艱苦的傳統產業讓它能夠升級讓它具有低成本然後可以有高值化的這個這樣的努力我想這樣來協助他們讓他可以堅強自己的這個腳步啊這個方向是對"},{"start":508.18,"end":532.599,"text":"但是委員跟你討論的就是說這個腳步你一定要加強你的預算也要增加因為我們已經可以預測到我們如果比較競爭力弱而且它是整個它要轉換成本低的它有困難的我們必須要去協助它這是政府非常重要的一個角色扮演務必要達成成功請委員支持這個預算"},{"start":535.043,"end":536.288,"text":"這一定要好好努力好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時54分）謝謝主席，本席邀請我們郭部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。昨天全球大家非常關注2024年美國大選，結果是川普當選第47屆總統，那大家都很清楚，川普經濟政策的核心是要創造就業，我們也看到，在今年7月的時候他接受了彭博商業周刊的訪問，在訪問當中他也首次提出一個主張，他說臺灣已經從美國搶走了幾乎百分之百的晶片產業，那我們可以預見川普政府會要求台積電把更多的生產線拉回美國，讓美國有更多的就業機會。那我們也看到台經院景氣預測中心孫明德主任的預測，他說2奈米會提前赴美，在這樣的情況之下，想請教部長，如果真的有這種情況，不只是影響到台積電工程師跟相關供應產業廠商的人才會被美國奪走，也會造成我國就業機會被剝奪，尤其我們記得在前年台積電要赴美的時候，就有用專機載了我國的這些工程人才過去。所以在這樣的背景之下，請教部長，如果這些都屬實，我們要怎麼應對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，川普在先前宣稱台積電偷走美國半導體的工作機會，我想這個是他可能還是有一些誤解……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他是誤解？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為他是誤解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["郭部長智輝：事實上，也有很多的專家學者都在談論這個議題，就是臺美雙方在經濟──特別是半導體供應鏈上面其實是互補的，那麼如果沒有台積電，美國的大型科技無法取得具有價格競爭力的先進半導體晶片，所以他想要說2奈米提早進行，這是一個趨勢……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，是一個趨勢。"],["郭部長智輝：但是會提早到什麼時候進行，這個必須要看美國客戶他們的需求，為什麼？因為在臺灣製造，然後送到美國就是要10%的稅金，這個只是增加他們的成本，但是在美國製造，也是只有降10%，對這幾個大型的公司來講，他們的獲利不是說百分之幾十，而是幾倍的，所以他們是沒有差，他們是要穩的，就是在臺灣製造是比較穩、良率比較高……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們臺灣本來就是有這樣子的條件。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果照剛剛部長所說的，也就是我們還是樂觀以對，但是因為換了總統，他的作為不是我們可以預估的，當然我們有我們自己觀察的一個管道跟我們的方向，但是我還是要建議，我們務必要思考怎麼樣讓我國的就業率可以得到保障，同時也協助我們的廠商，讓臺灣的產業界能夠穩定，我想這個是我們現在所必須要謹慎地去觀察，而且必須要有超前部署的應對方式。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教，我在上任以後，我有提出這個境外關內的作法，也就是說，碰到像川普總統這樣的作為，那麼我們在供應鏈上面就會移動到美國去，我們的商務組會幫助他們來談更優惠的條件，因為這是落實他讓美國更偉大這樣的策略。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：希望達到雙贏的這個政策，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們是有朝這個方向在努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：朝什麼方向？"],["郭部長智輝：朝雙贏的方向。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：雙贏的方向嘛！好，我們繼續努力。接下來本席要請教，川普先生也曾經說了，你臺灣要保護可以，你繳保護費啊！那你應該要繳更多的保護費，甚至他提出必須要我們GDP的10%，如果依照我們2025年的預算來看，我們的國防預算是6,470億，等於是比2024年增加了7.7%，那等於是占我們GDP的2.45%，如果真的如他所說的要增加到10%，就等於是要多少？就是要2.6兆，請教部長，可能嗎？我方可能會如此嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想這個是國防部跟外交部他們可以一起努力的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長，你這麼回答，我給你讚許，就是說你朝著你的本位，也就是他們未來會怎麼樣，但是重點在這裡，會不會衝擊到我們經濟的發展？我們必須要努力站在我們經濟的角度，好好地去保護我們的產業，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：朝這個方向嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教，川普先生主要主張的就是低稅率、低利率以及高關稅，他也說了，大家都把便宜的東西傾銷到他們那邊去，在這種情況之下，他的決策就是增高關稅，而我們是以出口為傾向，對於以出口為導向的國家勢必會有所影響，如果美元貶、臺幣升，在這樣的情況之下，我首先要請教部長，我們要怎麼樣保護我們的產業？首當其衝的會有哪些產業？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在輸美國的部分，因為他是科技國家，所以大概科技商品會比較多，我剛才有跟委員報告境外關內的措施，我們會協助臺灣的產業移到美國……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：境外？"],["郭部長智輝：境外去生產。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：移到美國去生產？但是這個也會衝擊到我國國內的就業率啊！"],["郭部長智輝：應該是不會，因為我們那些產業基本上都不在國內生產，都已經在海外其他國家生產了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把我國境外的產業移到美國去生產、異地去生產，就解除了他的高關稅，你是不是如此？"],["郭部長智輝：方向是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是部長，我要告訴你，臺灣的中小企業占了98%，如果是競爭優勢、強的，當然如你所說的，你的政策他可以安穩過關；但如果是競爭力弱也走不了的，這些產業占我國國內非常重大的比例，那怎麼辦呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分，我們大概會透過數位化跟低碳化這兩個措施來協助這些比較艱苦的傳統產業，讓他能夠升級，讓他具有低成本，然後可以有高值化的努力，我想這樣來協助他們，讓他們可以堅強自己的能耐。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，這個方向是對的，但是我們要跟你討論的就是，這個腳步你一定要加強，你的預算也要增加，因為我們已經可以預測到，對於競爭力比較弱，而且他要轉換成本低有困難的，我們必須要去協助他，這是政府非常重要的一個角色扮演，務必要達陣成功，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：請委員支持這個預算通過。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對不對？這一定要好好努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，部長請回座，楊委員時間掌握足為楷模，謝謝。","下一位質詢請陳亭妃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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排專報也好意義在哪裡"},{"start":67.304,"end":80.073,"text":"那今天我想特別來在這個我們教育部這裡也要讓部長去除了闡述一下您所遇到的困難我們各部會、跨部會到底應該要怎麼做這是今天最重要的議題我想部長剛剛特別有在聽到您的這個口頭報告當中您有提到說在校園的部分呢您如果查獲學生攜帶"},{"start":89.259,"end":89.439,"text":"我想我確實"},{"start":113.162,"end":120.625,"text":"謝謝委員關心學校的整個一個學習更友善的一個校園環境更安全的校園環境他確實以我們現在的一個生態來講老師他的一個專業在一個教學的專業但是我們又希望青少年學童有一個更好的一個成長發展的空間那外面的許多的這些誘因確實也很大所以我才會一直希望說所以嘛部長請問一下嘛我現在請教您嘛老師怎麼查"},{"start":142.483,"end":157.456,"text":"老師基本上我們就會從過去在校園裡邊有學生有抽煙或者有一些異常的一些行為您的意思是說我們先做一個調查表問問看大家有沒有抽煙然後針對有抽煙的人我們再來查所以我請教您一下老師該怎麼查老師基本上是從他日常教學裡邊去觀察到學生的一個行為所以老師就是用觀察的對嗎"},{"start":168.971,"end":185.679,"text":"例如說我們有一些除了這個教室的觀察當然還有一些廁所或者學校有一些好在不同的地方我們來進行觀察是這樣嗎可能例如說有一些他就會有一些丟棄煙蒂阿或者一些差別的一些部長阿我想喔其實喔我們要面對這個問題啦我就問您啦老師在去查這個電子煙的時候你覺得他有這個權力有這個能力嗎有沒有"},{"start":195.56,"end":197.903,"text":"在校園裡面查到有電子煙的就你知道有多少件在今年這一整年當中"},{"start":213.117,"end":232.752,"text":"目前有38件有通報的總共就從校園裡面查到老師查出來有38件是這樣嗎好 我們來看一下你剛剛說查到有38件但是呢根據衛福部今天的資料看起來我們就講這個三年前的舊資料啦三年前的舊資料電子煙啦電子煙大概有7萬9千人有7萬9千人有這個吸食杯查緝7萬9這是舊資料喔"},{"start":242.279,"end":264.31,"text":"我相信黑書恐怕是這個好幾倍喔你看我們在校園查38件這是成比例嘛這是一個我想 我就 我質詢如果是各部會的可以來自己答喔那麼這個剛剛講到是舊資料但我今天在這邊還要特別講一件事電子煙我們大家都知道現在你不管是吸食啊 製造什麼的通通都是違法的我們都知道但是今天還要講一個喔加熱煙大家不要以為加熱煙就是合法的喔"},{"start":267.532,"end":275.601,"text":"加熱煙現在其實是中央主管機關公告的指定煙品不管是輸入製造等等都要經過健康風險評估我請教衛福部現在加熱煙的部分我們有沒有哪一件來申請而且是通過審查沒有 對"},{"start":282.509,"end":283.971,"text":"電子煙加熱煙加起來青少年將近10萬人去碰觸稀釋所以現在的資料"},{"start":300.549,"end":304.67,"text":"拿出來看我相信會讓所有的師長更痛心啦但我們校園查緝38件為什麼有困難嘛怎麼查你把這樣的責任丟給老師我跟你講這些老師這個是不可承受之重所以今天校園裡面發生這樣的事情電子煙的氾濫有的在校園裡面有的在校園周邊那誰的責任"},{"start":322.935,"end":323.115,"text":"主管機關說是衛福部"},{"start":353.095,"end":357.416,"text":"我問一下部長以及大家這個什麼叫電子維他命棒啊部長 什麼叫電子維他命棒來 以上都有知道什麼叫電子維他命棒的舉手好 那什麼叫蒸汽果汁知道的舉手"},{"start":376.361,"end":404.382,"text":"來 威福部告訴我什麼叫爭氣果汁因為電子煙本身就是它的煙彈本身所以電子煙的一種嘛 是不是電子煙的一種嘛可見喔 我今天要講啦大家都說在查緝 大家都說要防制啦可是呢 我必須要說啦有一些人傻傻的連電子煙加熱煙第一個還分不清楚法律的規範還不了解那麼有時候看到了學校老師看到甚至於還不知道那是電子煙部長有沒有這種可能"},{"start":406.643,"end":409.764,"text":"目前我手邊的資料確實如果按圖來比照我是可以的"},{"start":429.611,"end":458.122,"text":"暗圖來比較是可以食品拿來你可以嗎我目前沒有接受到食品所以我講部長這個我要講今天就是說雖然我們今天在教育部裡面排這個我們要知道打擊電子煙非法的這個不合法這些電子煙以及我們要維護我們青少年的健康我們都知道電子煙真的可以造成這個青少年不管他將來去吸食煙或者是很多的危害我們都很清楚了但是大家跨部會怎麼做嗎"},{"start":459.212,"end":464.235,"text":"對不對 這才是重點啊所以我想今天關務署也在現場關務署啊 沒上來啊算了 積極一點好不好積極一點好不好我想這幾年我們看到海關在查緝這個電子煙110年的時候有12.7萬隻但113年有4.2萬那我想請教一下這是查緝有成還是什麼原因為什麼會下降"},{"start":490.101,"end":515.945,"text":"報告委員 這個部分大概我們有分析過為什麼就是說 電子煙 講重點第一個 這個大部分電子煙來源地大概都是中國大陸那邊比較多那中國大陸近年來也都積極對這個電子煙加強他們的一個管理措施所以說這個部分 可能電子煙進到台灣來 這個部分所以你現在的意思是說 我們查緝有成是因為對岸管理的好"},{"start":516.969,"end":540.681,"text":"他因為就是說電子煙這個部分跟我們剛剛講的那個加熱煙這個部分可能有互相取代的關係我想這樣子講今天我們在這個境外的部分加強去查緝這當然是非常重要的一個重點不過我想一樣回到這個衛福部來看你看衛福部自己的國建署統計的資料今年的1月到10月我們查獲非法使用154件對嗎?國建署"},{"start":545.543,"end":569.578,"text":"今年的1月到10月您的資料154件但是我們看到光舊資料這新時的少年就高達了將近8萬人這是舊資料現在搞不好超過10萬但你看你查到的只能有154件剛剛校園裡面只有38件這多麼可怕的一件事情所以今天大家的口頭報告簡直就是浪費大家的時間講來講去都在講查緝防制結果是什麼過去做不好"},{"start":574.361,"end":578.142,"text":"上次衛環委員會兩個禮拜開完會以後到現在網路上一樣看到啊對但是我要跟委員說明兩個禮拜前的衛環委員會之後我們做了相當多的事情包括跟縣市合作剛才部長提到的是38件是他們的統計我跟委員報告這一個禮拜不到兩個禮拜的時間我們的縣市查處"},{"start":596.866,"end":603.891,"text":"包括跟警政合作跟校園合作大概有1000件以上但是因為他那個真正採取的量數還在統計是不是容我一個禮拜內提供採取的具體的資料給您所以呢意思是說校園裡面查處38件但是我們各方這個合力查處有超過1000件"},{"start":616.538,"end":639.247,"text":"在校園周邊跟警政署合作的部分所以我一個禮拜內會把這些統計的資料交給你我想當然我們這個38件跟1000件我們感覺好像成績更好一點點但是呢我們來看稀釋的人口超過10萬的青少年我想這個成績還是慘不忍睹所以呢我想今天在這裡本席等一下也是有這個臨時提案我們希望我們要這個衛福部主責"},{"start":643.709,"end":664.224,"text":"那但是呢我們跨部會是不是要有一個這個稽查防制的平台上次在外防委員會結束之後你們沒有做那現在本席要具體要求你們到底的這個橫向的聯繫那大家的合作怎麼做嘛從境外的這個查緝這個境內的不管是警政署、衛福部再來數發部在哪裡"},{"start":667.866,"end":684.419,"text":"蘇發布就是更誇張了蘇發布難道都不會上網去看一下嗎這都跟你們沒有關係嗎不然蘇發布平常在幹嘛蘇發布都在做什麼這麼嚴重的事情對不對危害下一代的這個健康而且這是完全違法的你蘇發布都視而不見嗎"},{"start":685.934,"end":714.118,"text":"報告委員 針對這個淹害的部分的話基本上全職單位是衛福部那我們協助了一些事情比如說像我們希望他能夠藉行用平台的方式通知相關平台業者能夠向下而且我們建立了所謂的MetaGoogle這種大型平台的綠色通道也可以協助衛福部那另外在提到所以書發部你現在的想法就是說你是協助衛福部嘛對不對報告委員 因為基本上警政署"},{"start":717.677,"end":744.088,"text":"你也是協助衛福部是不是?跟委員報告你也協助衛福部嗎?這部分當然是大家要兩個部門都要跨機關來合作所以你會不會主動出擊?那基本上我想我們針對電子煙部我們還是在主軸還是在他有毒品的部分來做一個專責的查緝啦是,所以呢如果你不知道他有沒有毒品你就不查緝是這樣子講法嗎?"},{"start":745.894,"end":765.709,"text":"我們當然不是說他這個毒品要看看他整個情質來源我們做綜合考量來做好就看起來你也是在協助的角色好那我想我下一個結論今天在教育部排定但是我覺得這個如果我們把所有的茶器通通放在校園當源頭我們把所有的責任都給老師我跟你講將來很多人已經不想再當老師了給他很多的這個壓力但是你沒有給他權利給他很多的責任但是我覺得法規都不清晰"},{"start":775.916,"end":776.136,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":285,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時49分）謝謝主席，今天有來的各部會，我想都請一個代表。"],["主席：我們就請教育部、衛福部、法務部、數發部及警政署都上來，好不好？謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：都上來了嗎？好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，您現在這樣站著還可以吧？好，那我們來問一下。我想不管是我們洪孟楷委員、柯志恩委員今天所問的，其實是今天大家所關心的，我不免今天要在這裡講，兩個禮拜前我們在衛福部才討論過這個問題，而衛環委員會所提出來的這些問題點、這些質疑點，在這兩個禮拜當中，我們沒有看到我們各部會有什麼樣進一步的處理或解決，也就是說，委員會如果每次開完會以後，我們還是原地踏步，請問一下，不管今天是質詢也好，排專報也好，意義在哪裡？今天我想特別我們教育部在這裡，也要讓部長除了闡述一下你所遇到的困難，我們各部會跨部會到底應該要怎麼做，這是今天最重要的議題。","部長，剛剛聽到您的口頭報告當中有提到，在校園的部分，如果查獲學生攜帶，你就會轉衛生單位，這個源頭聽起來好像在學校裡面，你又說，如果查獲會給予適當的處置。剛剛我聽柯志恩委員在質詢的時候，您也沒有說出來現在到底要怎麼查、怎麼罰，難道源頭都是學校，責任都是老師嗎？請部長簡要的回答一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心學校的整個學習、更友善的一個校園環境、更安全的校園環境。確實以我們現在的生態來講，老師的專業是在教學的專業，但是我們又希望青少年學童有一個更好的成長發展的空間，外面許多的誘因確實也很大，所以我才會一直希望說……"],["萬委員美玲：所以部長，請問一下，我現在請教您，老師要怎麼查？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，我們就會從過去在校園裡面，有學生抽菸或者一些異常的行為……"],["萬委員美玲：您的意思是說，我們先做一個調查表，問問看大家有沒有抽菸，然後針對有抽菸的人，我們再來查？所以我請教您一下，老師該怎麼查？"],["鄭部長英耀：老師基本上是從他日常教學裡面去觀察學生的行為。"],["萬委員美玲：所以老師就是用觀察的，對嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：譬如說，我們有一些除了教室的觀察，當然還有一些廁所或者學校有一些……"],["萬委員美玲：在不同的地方我們來進行觀察，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：譬如說會有一些丟棄菸蒂或者一些……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我想我們要面對這個問題，我就問您，老師去查電子煙的時候，你覺得他有這個權力、有這個能力嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：就我們學生的受教權跟……"],["萬委員美玲：有沒有困難？我問你有沒有困難？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然是有挑戰、有困難的。"],["萬委員美玲：有困難、有困難嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：執行率高不高？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實我們基本上……"],["萬委員美玲：現在校園裡面查到有電子煙的，就你知道有多少件？在今年這一整年當中。"],["鄭部長英耀：目前有通報的有38件。"],["萬委員美玲：從校園裡面查到、老師查出來的總共有38件，是這樣嗎？好，我們來看一下，你剛剛說查到有38件，但是根據衛福部今天的資料看起來，我們就講三年前的舊資料，電子煙大概有7萬9,000人，有7萬9,000人有吸食被查緝，這是舊資料哦！我相信黑數恐怕是這個的好幾倍，你看我們在校園查到38件，這成比例嗎？這是一個，如果我的質詢是關於各部會的，可以自己來回答。剛剛講到的是舊資料，但我今天在這邊還要特別講一件事，電子煙，我們大家都知道，現在不管是吸食、製造什麼等等，統統都是違法的，我們都知道，但是今天還要講一個加熱菸，大家不要以為加熱菸就是合法的，加熱菸現在其實是中央主管機關公告的指定菸品，不管是輸入、製造等等，都要經過健康風險評估。我請教衛福部，現在加熱菸的部分，我們有沒有哪一件來申請而且是通過審查的？"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒有，目前沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有，對，但是事實上加熱菸一樣氾濫，所以今天本席要在這裡講清楚，到目前為止，加熱菸也都是違法的。好，那我們來看，電子煙、加熱菸兩者加起來，我們青少年將近有十萬人，這是舊資料、三年前的舊資料，有將近十萬人去碰觸、吸食，所以現在的資料拿出來看，我相信會讓所有的師長更痛心，但我們的校園查緝是38件，為什麼？有困難嘛！怎麼查？你把這樣的責任丟給老師，我跟你講，對於這些老師這是不可承受之重！所以今天校園裡面發生這樣的事情，電子煙的氾濫，有的在校園裡面，有的在校園周邊，那是誰的責任？誰應該去做？今天不是你推我、我推他，主管機關今天說是衛福部，那請問一下，我想國健署是主管機關，但你做了什麼？第一個，校園裡面的查緝，你還是要由校園裡面的老師來做？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是。"],["萬委員美玲：你衛福部能做什麼？今天我們又看到了，在網路上面隨便google出來就這麼多、這麼多，我想剛剛洪孟楷委員google出來的，你也可以查一下，今天早上本席看了一下以後多得不得了，真的多得不得了。我問一下部長以及大家，什麼叫做電子維他命棒？部長，什麼叫做電子維他命棒？以上都有，知道什麼叫做電子維他命棒的舉手。好，那什麼叫做蒸氣果汁？知道的舉手。來，衛福部告訴我什麼叫蒸氣果汁。"],["賈副署長淑麗：因為電子煙本身就是它的煙彈本身……"],["萬委員美玲：所以是電子煙的一種嘛，是不是？電子煙的一種嘛？我今天要講，大家都說在查緝，大家都說要防制，可是我必須要說，有一些人傻傻的，連電子煙、加熱菸還分不清楚，法律的規範還不了解，有時候學校老師看到了，甚至還不知道那是電子煙，部長，有沒有這種可能？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然是存在的。"],["萬委員美玲：如果你看到你會知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實這幾天我們同仁有拿……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，如果你從孩子的書包看到一樣東西，其實它是電子煙，可是它有不同的表現狀態，你能夠辨識出那個就是電子煙嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前我手邊的資料，確實如果按圖來比照，我是可以的。"],["萬委員美玲：按圖來比照是可以，那實品拿來你可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我目前沒有接受到實品。"],["萬委員美玲：所以部長，這個我要講，雖然我們今天在教育部裡面排這個，我們要知道，打擊電子煙、非法的、不合法的這些電子煙，以及我們要維護我們青少年的健康，我們都知道，電子煙真的可以造成青少年不管他將來去吸食菸，或者是很多的危害，這些我們都很清楚了，但是大家跨部會怎麼做，這才是重點啊！","今天關務署也在現場，關務署沒上來？署長，積極一點好不好？積極一點好不好？這幾年我們看到海關在查緝電子煙，110年的時候有12.7萬支，113年有4.2萬支，我想請教一下，這是查緝有成還是什麼原因，為什麼會下降？"],["陳副署長世鋒：報告委員，這個部分我們有分析過了，為什麼電子煙……"],["萬委員美玲：講重點！"],["陳副署長世鋒：第一個，大部分電子煙來源地大概都是中國大陸那邊比較多，中國大陸近年來也都積極對電子煙加強他們的管理措施，所以可能電子煙進到臺灣來這部分……"],["萬委員美玲：所以你現在的意思是說，我們查緝有成是因為對岸管理得好？"],["陳副署長世鋒：不是，因為就是說電子煙這個部分跟我們剛剛講的那個加熱菸這個部分，可能有互相取代的關係。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想這樣子講啦，今天我們在境外的部分加強去查緝，這當然是非常重要的一個重點，不過，我想一樣回到衛福部來看，你看衛福部國健署自己統計的資料，今年的1月到10月，我們查獲非法使用有154件，對嗎？國健署，今年的1月到10月，您的資料是154件。"],["賈副署長淑麗：對。"],["萬委員美玲：但是我們看到舊資料，吸食的少年就高達將近八萬人，這是舊資料哦！現在搞不好超過十萬，但是你看，你查到的只有154件，剛剛校園裡面只有38件，這是多麼可怕的一件事情啊！所以今天大家的口頭報告，簡直就是浪費大家的時間，講來講去都在講查緝、防制、查緝、防制，結果是什麼？過去做不好，上次衛環委員會兩個禮拜開完會以後，到現在網路上一樣看到啊！"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，但是我要跟委員說明，兩個禮拜前的衛環委員會之後，我們做了相當多的事情，包括跟縣市合作，剛才部長提到的38件是他們的統計，我跟委員報告，這一個禮拜、不到兩個禮拜的時間，我們的縣市查處，包括跟警政合作、跟校園合作，大概有一千件以上，但是因為真正裁處的量數還在統計，是不是容我一個禮拜內提供裁處的具體資料給您？"],["萬委員美玲：所以你的意思是說，校園裡面查處38件，但是我們各方合力查處的超過一千件，是這樣嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，包括在校園周邊，跟警政署合作的部分，所以我一個禮拜內會把這些統計的資料交給您。"],["萬委員美玲：我想，這個38件跟1,000件，我們感覺好像成績更好一點點，但是我們來看吸食人口超過10萬的青少年，我想這個成績還是慘不忍睹。所以今天本席等一下也是有臨時提案，我們希望，這是衛福部主責，但是跨部會是不是要有一個稽查防制的平臺？上次在衛環委員會結束之後你們沒有做，現在本席要具體要求，你們到底橫向的聯繫、大家的合作，怎麼做嘛？從境外的查緝，還有境內的不管是警政署、衛福部，再來數發部在哪裡？數發部就更誇張了，數發部難道都不會上網去看一下嗎？這都跟你們沒有關係嗎？不然數發部平常在幹嘛？數發部都在做什麼？這麼嚴重的事情！對不對？危害下一代的健康，而且這完全是違法的，你數發部都視而不見嗎？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員，針對菸害的部分，基本上權責單位是衛福部，我們協助了一些事情，比如說，我們希望它能夠用平臺的方式通知相關平臺業者下架，而且我們建立了所謂的Meta、Google這種大型平臺的綠色通道，也可以協助衛福部。另外在TW……"],["萬委員美玲：所以數發部你現在的想法就是，你是協助衛福部嘛，對不對？"],["牛司長信仁：報告委員……"],["萬委員美玲：警政署，你也是協助衛福部，是不是？"],["陳副局長炯旭：跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：你也協助衛福部嗎？"],["陳副局長炯旭：這部分當然是兩個部門要跨機關合作。"],["萬委員美玲：所以你會不會主動出擊？"],["陳副局長炯旭：基本上，我想針對電子煙部分，主軸還是在它有毒品的部分來做一個專責的查緝。"],["萬委員美玲：是，所以，如果你不知道他有沒有毒品，你就不查緝！是這樣子講法嗎？"],["陳副局長炯旭：有沒有毒品要看整個情資來源，我們做綜合考量。"],["萬委員美玲：看起來你也是協助的角色嘛！好，我想我下一個結論，今天在教育部排定，但是我覺得如果我們把所有的查緝通通放在校園當源頭，我們把所有的責任都給老師，我跟你講，將來很多人已經不想再當老師了，給他很多的壓力，但是你沒有給他權力，給他很多的責任，但是我覺得法規都不清楚，所以我希望各部會一起來協助教育部，會後一定要成立一個跨部會的查緝防制平臺小組，等一下在我的臨時提案當中，我們來做一個決議，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["賈副署長淑麗：謝謝委員。"],["主席（萬委員美玲）：接下來有請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef0542b951f2c2c22fd96be9b0bd4ecc214d51cbb87bdf8ddece39be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:48:49 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完之後新政府的組成未來的在這個政策上我們並不反對立法院跟中國關係正常化這個設大使館可是這不矛盾嘛立法院跟台灣發展正常的外交關係"},{"start":546.562,"end":552.428,"text":"現在已經提示了外交錯誤已經他們是對國際媒體表達了外交錯誤並希望我們以台灣改立為台北這個就是一個警訊了"},{"start":566.303,"end":582.421,"text":"我覺得委員你可能要稍微他後半段他也有提到說其實立陶宛是一個主權他這個國家啦其實也不是說在外力下壓迫他就一定就會改變那我們當然要去努力怎麼樣去實質的增進台力關係"},{"start":583.542,"end":585.023,"text":"外交錯誤是我們的台灣設立在立陶宛就是一個外交錯誤這是一個警訊"},{"start":608.503,"end":614.274,"text":"他們沒有共識我們再怎麼要求他們也沒有他們也不接受我們的共識的話那怎麼辦現在問題就在這裡"},{"start":616.431,"end":645.251,"text":"我們就是溝通來說明其實立、台、中三邊的關係不是零和的那立陶宛也開創了一個新的模式我想如果中國願意回來跟立陶宛發展正常的關係不要再制裁他們經貿或者是說自己這個撤出大使館這個我們基本上我們都不反對所以立、中跟立、台關係是兩件事情是可以同步來發展創造多贏"},{"start":646.394,"end":667.58,"text":"我們會去溝通,但是委員提到,沒有錯,這個要值得我們要注意,因為這些都代表著說我們外交上未來的挑戰。我跟部長講,我們建立在一個,跟立法院建立的關係,主要的關係,就是一個新冠疫情和俄烏戰爭兩個事件上,其實利益極點並不穩固。"},{"start":669.381,"end":689.707,"text":"尤其在新冠疫情結束後．立即點消失的前提下．台立關係動搖的可能性大增．所以這就是一個主因．那我們也特別請外交部加強．來跟立陶宛再做雙邊的關係．再做一個好好的來．"},{"start":692.148,"end":692.348,"text":"好,謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時48分）有請外交部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長，首先我們先恭喜川普能夠當選，是不是能帶來全球的安定，我們以待後面的演變是如何，但是我們不得不相信，你們也要重新的調整跟思考未來臺灣的利益跟美國的利益要怎麼樣的互惠跟互動，以及未來要怎麼樣的合作，臺灣有它的獨立性，不是因為美國的新政府造成了我們臺灣的壓力。今天我們講的，過去拜登政府這幾年推動的全球民主信賴夥伴關係，我相信這個一定會有不同改變的角度，我們當然希望我們的信賴夥伴關係能夠存在，當然拜登上任之後，可能會有所的改變，因為我們可以了解拜登……"],["林部長佳龍：川普。"],["黃委員仁：對，川普，在選舉之前，都已經對世界、對我們臺灣都表達了他們將要採取什麼樣的策略跟政策，你來回答一下。"],["林部長佳龍：其實對美國的國家政策，尤其在國際關係上有各種的路線，不過基本上它是民主國家，它在全球裡面對理念相近國家的同盟關係是會持續的……"],["黃委員仁：現在我講的是川普未來對臺灣會實施什麼樣的手段？"],["林部長佳龍：就是包括像臺灣關係法、六項保證，還有有關於國會通過的這些法案，這些都是會延續的，這是第一層。第二層，就是他的政策，我剛剛提過，其實在川普第一任總統的時候，後來拜登是把他的政策延續、擴大，所以這8年來是有其一致性跟發展性。"],["黃委員仁：部長，你還是在規避我的問題，現在我們講一個，本席觀察到川普執政的特色如下：第一個，美國優先，以美國為軸心的單邊主義，減少美國的安全責任，交易主義以及關稅治百病等這些特色，都容易引起其他國家的不滿，甚至造成其他國家的利益直接受損。川普過去不是只對中國大陸採取不友善策略，對北約、歐盟也是如此，可見他的想法是想把世界區分為美國跟非美國，只在乎美國是否能夠獲得立即的利益，所以這就是我們現在要思考的問題，對於臺灣，未來他是不是要重新調整提高保護費用，為什麼？因為有兩項的問題，你先回答我剛剛前面的問題。"],["林部長佳龍：就是說，對川普的路線有各種的名詞，我不太用這些名詞是因為，所謂美國優先，其實任何總統執政都是美國優先，只是說他的作風跟怎麼樣去形成一個在國際穩定的力量，作法不盡相同。"],["黃委員仁：現在問題……"],["林部長佳龍：對臺灣來講，臺灣的重要性……"],["黃委員仁：我只針對他對臺灣未來會採取什麼樣的手段，第一個，他已經對外說要對臺灣收取保護費，這保護費項目是什麼？是提高軍備的軍購預算，還是要從整個總預算的1.2兆，現在你要回答這個問題嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：是啦，我跟委員講，臺灣為了自己的國防安全，都一直有付費，我們都有編預算，現在因為美國沒有在臺灣駐軍，所以所謂保護費的這種講法是後來媒體將它簡略或可能有一點誤導啦。本來對於臺海的安全就是臺灣自己要盡一份責任，我們的盟邦也基於臺灣關係法、六項保證，還有這些軍售來跟我們合作……"],["黃委員仁：我知道啦，部長，我現在問的是未來，我們現在要去面對，針對國內國人的關心，第一個，臺灣半導體，美國說我們臺灣半導體搶美國的生意，要向臺灣收保護費，對所有進口美國的產品都要加徵10%的關稅，這就是問題所在，10%有多少？"],["林部長佳龍：委員，他用關稅作為美國優先的一個手段，這不是只針對臺灣，他對中國甚至要增加課徵六成的關稅嘛……"],["黃委員仁：我們不講別的，我們講臺灣就好了，現在國人擔心的是什麼，川普當選之後，對全球甚至對臺灣，現在臺灣最關心的議題就是未來我們是不是要提高軍購預算，還是要從整個總預算裡面來收取保護費用，這就是兩個……"],["林部長佳龍：是，我跟委員報告，我們跟對方溝通時，我會呈現的是，比如過去八年來，我們的國防預算從每一年3,300億已經增加到六千四百多億，我們的增加率八成以上，而且未來還會持續增加，我們對美國的……"],["黃委員仁：如果他不接受呢……"],["林部長佳龍：我們的軍購，它還有二百多億美金的軍售武器還沒有遞交，所以我們都透過一定的溝通，我們要不卑不亢，本來我們就要持續，因為隨著我們GDP及預算的增加，我們的比例跟總額也會增加。"],["黃委員仁：部長，因為時間因素，你再提供一個書面的報告給我，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，這個我們有說帖，我們把給美國的說帖也給委員，我請同仁準備，大家關心的一個是晶片，另外一個就是軍費，這兩個說帖我們會提供給委員。"],["黃委員仁：好。另外，現在我們臺立外交生變，就是10月底立陶宛國會大選後由社民黨成為國會最大黨，並組成聯合政府，日前準總理帕魯克斯表示，將尋求與中國大陸全面恢復正常外交關係，並稱立陶宛允諾臺灣開設以「臺灣」為名稱的代表處為外交錯誤，他對外向記者表示是外交錯誤。臺立關係生變的第一個警訊是社民黨在今年5月份總統大選的時候，連任的瑙塞達總統也曾經表示過，要把以「臺灣」名義設立的代表處改為「臺北」，以穩定與中國大陸的關係，當時前外交部吳釗燮部長也信誓旦旦的說名稱不會改變，短短半年又生變了，又發生這樣的狀況，部長，你新上任，你會怎麼樣來應對這樣的問題？對於將會生變這個部分如何因應？"],["林部長佳龍：首先，我國駐立陶宛代表處的名稱是臺灣跟立陶宛雙方政府當時達致的共識跟決定，我們當然會努力去維護，我想任何變更也需要經過雙方面的程序。至於他們大選完後新政府組成，未來對於這個政策，我們並不反對立陶宛跟中國關係正常化、設大使館，這不矛盾嘛，立陶宛跟臺灣發展正常的外交關係，這個不一定要去受制於中國嘛……"],["黃委員仁：現在已經提示了說這是外交錯誤，他們對國際媒體表達那是外交錯誤，並希望我們將「臺灣」改為「臺北」，這個就是一個警訊了。另外就是……"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得委員可能要稍微，他在後半段也有提到其實立陶宛是一個主權國家，也不是在外力的壓迫下就一定會改變，我們當然要去努力，怎麼樣去實質的增進臺立關係，除了理念相近之外，我們跟他們的經貿及各方面合作也很重要……"],["黃委員仁：立陶宛是主權國家，他已經跟我們臺灣是本來邦交的國家裡面，好，它現在已經要跟大陸進行雙邊關係或是直接關係，它已經對外講了是外交錯誤，說以「臺灣」為名在立陶宛設代表處是一個外交錯誤，這就是一個警訊，現在他們沒有共識，我們再怎麼要求他們也不接受我們的共識的話怎麼辦？現在問題就在這裡。"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是會去溝通、說明，其實立臺中三邊的關係不是零和的，立陶宛也開創了一個新的模式，我想如果中國願意回來跟立陶宛發展正常的關係，不要再制裁他們的經貿，或者是自己撤出大使館，我們基本上都不反對，所以立中跟立臺關係是兩件事情，是可以同步來發展，創造多贏，我們會去溝通，但是委員提的沒有錯，這個值得我們去注意，因為這些都代表我們外交上未來的挑戰。"],["黃委員仁：我跟部長講，我們跟立陶宛建立關係，主要就是在新冠疫情和俄烏戰爭兩個事件上，其實立基點並不穩固，尤其在新冠疫情結束後，立基點消失的前提下，臺立關係動搖的可能性大增，這就是一個主因。我們也特別請外交部加強跟立陶宛的雙邊關係，好好的把我們的理念告訴他們，我們希望能夠穩住穩定我們的邦交國，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：我們朝委員剛剛提示的方向來努力，確實如你所說，怎麼去穩固雙邊的關係，讓它更紮實，不會因為中國是不是跟立陶宛恢復設置大使館而受到影響。"],["黃委員仁：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員，部長請回。","接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054c7a0a4311416eea513be6769c271087b703e17d4a2046a8d3c75c7788f2af55f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:44:58 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已經有達到一致性的一個看法他們才會對外去表示他們的意見OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝邱議員委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時45分）謝謝主席，我要請一下外交部次長，次長很難得到經濟委員會來，還有經貿辦顏副主任是不是也準備一下？"],["主席：請外交部吳次長，經貿辦顏副總談判代表。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長早。"],["吳次長志中：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長，從昨天到現在大概全球都在關注美國的大選，川普先生再度當選美國的總統，而參眾兩院目前看起來也會是共和黨來掌握，所以他應該是久違的所謂全面執政。全球關注川普的當選，我想臺灣當然也不能置身事外，我比較想聽一下外交部的分析，現在這樣一個新的局面，對於臺灣的具體影響是什麼？你們外交部現在能不能分析或者掌握到，川普當選之後在臺美關係的進展上面，包括我們過去在談的幾項經貿協議上會不會有更進一步的發展，還是會停滯不前，我想聽一下外交部的意見。"],["吳次長志中：報告委員，美國是我們最重要的盟邦，外交部以及我們政府的重要工作，就是與新當選的美國政府進行最密切的合作，現在川普政府新當選，我想外交部以及我們政府現在已經積極開始跟川普總統的團隊在進行溝通，然後看未來如何合作。基本上以外交部的立場來看，一個民主、繁榮、擁有高科技、半導體科技的臺灣，我剛才講民主、繁榮、自由、和平，這個絕對是美國兩黨重大的國家利益，我想這是非常清楚的，根據各項指標，臺灣也是世界十大科技國之一，現在世界各國都在爭取作為科技領導國，像AI，所以我想，一個願意跟美國合作而且穩定、民主、自由的臺灣，絕對是新的美國政府的重大利益……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我簡單請教一下，您認為未來臺美關係會不會更好？"],["吳次長志中：我認為基本上……"],["邱委員議瑩：或者是說這樣子問會速度太快，我換個角度問你，你對於未來臺美關係是抱持什麼樣的態度，是樂觀呢？還是悲觀呢？還是？"],["吳次長志中：我基本上對於不僅僅是臺美、臺歐關係，我是持樂觀的態度，就是我們現在看整體的地緣政治環境的變遷，讓我……"],["邱委員議瑩：好。所以你認為未來的臺灣，在國際戰略地位上面其實是更形重要？"],["吳次長志中：我相當樂觀，就根據我在法國擔任大使6年，我看到的是這樣的趨勢。"],["邱委員議瑩：OK，好，次長，謝謝。","我請一下經貿辦。如果說剛剛外交部的整體評估，包括次長認為未來的臺美關係是樂觀的，我想進一步請教經貿辦，在臺美21世紀貿易倡議協定裡頭，其實在8月的時候，美國政府已經把它放進去要進一步來核定了，包括戴琪，也在進一步的發展，請問一下經貿辦，現在的進度到哪裡？就是說我們第一批什麼時候可以真正地開始落實，真的可以開始執行？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員的垂詢。針對臺美21世紀貿易倡議，首先要先說明的是，這一個倡議本身的推動以及美國他必須要相應的制定一個國內的執行法，這個都是美國跨黨派的共識……"],["邱委員議瑩：是，所以未來他如果是完全執政的話，你們推估這個進度會不會加速？到底什麼時候可以完成第一批？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：首先，這個第一批協定，我們也持續跟現在的貿易團隊在進行溝通，他們基本上給我們的是一個非常樂觀看待的進展，那現在基本上已經在跟國會溝通的過程當中，對首批協議國會沒有其他的意見，所以接下來可能只剩下行政程序，就是我們雙方……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，原來說的行政程序大概是60天完成，所以原來推估大概是11月可以完成這些行政程序，但是可能因為美國大選在時程上會有一些delay，這個部分經貿辦你們可能還需要確實去掌握一下，包括臺美21世紀貿易倡議協議第一批執行的日期跟第二批後續談判的日期，接下來是全面租稅協議的部分，這個可能也都是經貿辦很重要的工作，所以這些進度上面的掌握，包括未來跟新政府之間的溝通，這個可能也要請經貿辦多花一點心思，可以嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，接下來要請教跟今天我們主席排定的主題比較有相關的問題，對於CPTPP，我想主責單位也是在經貿辦，那臺灣其實在過去的幾年把相關的法令都修改了，因為我們已經準備好要加入CPTPP，但是我想請問經貿辦，到底我們現在推動的進展如何？我看CPTPP的會員國在去年他們有一個所謂的奧克蘭三原則，就是說要有高標準，要有遵守貿易承諾，然後是要共識決，對於新加入的會員國要有這個所謂的奧克蘭三標準。看起來包括澳洲的貿易部跟日本都多次表達中國可能沒有達到CPTPP的標準，我不知道就你們的掌握臺灣有沒有達到，那臺灣在這個布局上面、在這個推動的時程上面還缺了什麼東西？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員的垂詢，現在的CPTPP針對新申請國確實是按照奧克蘭三原則，也就是要符合高標準、要在過去有良好的貿易承諾紀錄以及共識決。我們現在已經透過各種多邊、雙邊的架構跟CPTPP成員國做過接觸，那我們所得到的訊息是，這些國家對於臺灣的高標準以及符合貿易承諾這些良好紀錄完全沒有任何的意見，他們覺得臺灣都可以達到，當然他們有說我們共識決這一個是大家需要共同努力的，所以特別請我們辦公室以及請我們臺灣要針對這個部分努力。"],["邱委員議瑩：你們有沒有進行過任何的遊說？包括很快在27號會在加拿大召開執行委員會，還有明年在澳洲，我不知道經貿辦有沒有在這個過程裡頭或者是在這個期間去進行任何的遊說。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們始終一直在進行遊說，如同我剛剛講的，我們透過雙邊以及多邊的場合，我們在APEC、WTO都始終一直努力去安排跟這些國家的雙邊會談，當然包括我們的外交部跟經濟部也都持續透過他們的管道來協助我們去做這些遊說的工作。"],["邱委員議瑩：那你覺得為什麼到目前為止這些會員國一直不敢對於臺灣的入會審查表達任何的意見？主要的壓力來源會在哪裡？如果照您剛剛講的，包括這幾個會員國對於臺灣都是高度肯定的，那我們一直沒有辦法得到首肯入會，您覺得壓力來源會是在哪裡，會是在中國嗎？會不會是中國的施壓，所以讓這些會員國不敢在這個時候或者是不敢這麼貿然的表態來支持臺灣加入CPTPP？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我覺得CPTPP他們尊重他們共識決的過程，所以基本上他們希望是透過內部已經有達到一致性的看法，他們才會對外去表示他們的意見。"],["邱委員議瑩：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員，請官員回座。下一位質詢請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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如果校園裡面有沒有辦法真的來管理你如果學生被調查到他擁有電子煙的話學校的校規是怎麼來處理部長"},{"start":128.416,"end":139.619,"text":"校規怎麼處理兩大過留下查看還是如何剛剛衛福部裡面也特別提到啊你會如果說你有發現有被檢舉的話你可以責成你們這邊的資料裡面寫出來如果發現使用電子煙轉請縣市地方衛生局查處並且配合警政單位加強來對於學校周邊商品我請問在校園裡面書包裡面萬一可以搜到電子煙的話它的校規處理是什麼"},{"start":158.004,"end":161.365,"text":"你怎麼查處還有我要問查處了多少屆我告訴部長昨天就有一個家長非常生氣告訴我們他的女兒為什麼別人買的網路上買的這個電子煙之後加價賣給他還告訴大家大家可以一起來買大家可以一起來抽女兒買到的是加價後的420塊加個100塊賣他520塊到處賣你怎麼辦"},{"start":185.37,"end":189.234,"text":"部長我只問個最單純的問題學生在校內發生這條問題的話他的校規是存儲什麼樣的成分基礎點在哪裡部長你回答我這麼簡單問題就好學校問題就好了以學校的一個校規來講他違反持有持有違反他違反校規是要記過處分的記過對就是我說嘛最重可以記到什麼程度"},{"start":206.36,"end":207.64,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部長"},{"start":228.907,"end":239.652,"text":"誠意你的這個問題輔導這都是教育部官方我們很知道這個問題非常的嚴重我也同意源頭不管你的話又把學校丟給學校然後學校的老師你認為他敢搜書包嗎搜比不搜"},{"start":243.434,"end":249.039,"text":"更麻煩所以你到底可不可以給我們一個行為準則讓我們這些老師有個依據你剛講的萬一發現也不過就是記過學生不會怕、不會怕啦然後呢衛福部告訴我說你們就會責成地方單位來查處到底查處的多少屆不要講這些東西問題是沒有解決你部長你試圖要跟洪孟凱委員解釋很多你做的什麼數據告訴你沒有用"},{"start":270.416,"end":271.898,"text":"然後這都是家中學校說我只問你到底可以給老師什麼樣的行為準則來做依據不要讓老師限於他要不要來懲處你像目前為止也就不過是記過的處分而已嘛不是嗎"},{"start":284.239,"end":308.214,"text":"對學生的行為確實是記過但是我們更重要的是他行為的一個改變跟改善你行為那麼容易改變的話就就就就好了那包含這一個來源源頭我們會這一個源頭對好的部長可以那沒關係你的源頭到底怎麼來處理我們是不是得請法務部跟其他數發部過來這是我們所看到的網路賣電子煙到底是哪個部會管誰可以告訴我網路電子煙是哪個部會管的哪一個部會管這件事哪一個部會"},{"start":314.028,"end":326.891,"text":"部長你不要說自己是教育部好不好?這不是教育部啊?為什麼?我們就是移送這個法務部跟...法務部嗎?來法務部來告訴我這是你們管的嗎?這個電子煙管理是衛福部衛福部來了衛福部這是你們管的嗎?電子煙是我管的是你們管的那面臨這麼多問題在網路上這麼多問題電子煙是你管所以我等一下問你成分問題這麼多網路的部分是你管嗎?"},{"start":339.417,"end":340.237,"text":"報告委員只要它是跟電子煙有關的就是我管"},{"start":367.444,"end":389.377,"text":"包括在網路上散佈的部分所以我們現在是積極地在加強網路的查緝從去年到現在我們大概有三萬五千多件對網路的搜尋我告訴你你們現在目前為止所搜尋的結果怎麼樣來我們看後面目前為止明朗滿目衛福部、法務部你說都是跨部會但是衛福部為主責但是我們再往下過來看"},{"start":391.769,"end":392.49,"text":"我們只能從網路的部分網路平台去找到犯淹者"},{"start":406.027,"end":408.588,"text":"有查到犯煙者是誰目前犯煙者在網路上開我們賣那個採儲那個賣煙的人是115件115件來我告訴你來我們來看一下採儲的部分一年多來檢舉裡面就有50萬件大街小巷都可以看到電子煙"},{"start":428.314,"end":438.378,"text":"50萬件都是民眾檢舉但是開罰率有多低?非常非常的低到底開罰率有多低?現在開罰的件數到10月底是1370件0.24%0.24%"},{"start":443.38,"end":445.961,"text":"報告委員電子煙的這個煙害防制它的這個裁法需要經過一些行政程序所以我們在10月30號跟縣市高溝通要求加強裁法的速度跟力道"},{"start":463.266,"end":478.059,"text":"這已經非常久了,我不忍苛責你,因為我知道你們的人力各方面都不夠,需要跨部會,我完全同意,但是你把電子煙攬在你們衛福部的這個部分裡面,cover率又這麼低,所以為什麼今天大家這麼生氣,你們講了很多,但是數據會說話,數據會說話,像所有的家長多麼擔心,特別是我要問一下,部長你現在可以暫時先請回座一下。"},{"start":487.808,"end":504.799,"text":"然後呢你看0.24的開罰率沒人在怕啦然後我們再往下來看加位煙為什麼我今天要特別提到今天大家很多人有提到加位煙你們當時候上一任的人大家認為加位煙應該是全面來做一個禁止的但是呢你們現在只是怎麼樣有27種成分你們禁止然後呢你們有4種口約你們也禁止"},{"start":510.723,"end":526.552,"text":"但是呢對於煙潮口味以外你們都是禁止但是呢對不起目前氾濫還是非常非常的嚴重我們再往下來看一個對於這個部分裡面啊說它是全面應該禁止的可是讓現在目前有很多的家長認為你們還是有開一點點小門因為目前為止你們只禁止了27種的成分但是現在夯不浪蕩加在一起有1200多種你們要你們要花多少時間才可以把這些成分一一一一把"},{"start":538.939,"end":544.361,"text":"我跟委員報告這27種的加味煙目前是完成預告的程序現在已經超過這個比數了全世界大概有1200種吧但是我們禁用的這27種大概cover 74%所有的煙瓶所以我們會繼續滾動式的增加我告訴你現在包括口味什麼你哈姆頓加起來已經超過1200種為什麼我特別重視加味煙因為你看到吧"},{"start":563.686,"end":577.63,"text":"今天討論到校園的問題青少年當中有4個人就是用加味煙他比其他的煙種更被青少年來做實驗而且女生所使用的比率高於男生這些你都知道所以加味煙這件事確實需要積極的去處理目前我們是完成預告緊接著我們就會開會把這27是不是一定是27種"},{"start":586.192,"end":600.017,"text":"你們永遠趕不上現在所有煙傷所多我剛剛說現在目前為止已經有1200個不同的成分不同的口味的一個組合已經不是27種這樣的一個成分可以了你現在抽取27種"},{"start":601.677,"end":607.405,"text":"趕不上這樣的一個速度這是我們最擔心的問題所以衛福部目前真正的問題是什麼你們如果需要人力的話我也贊同啊剛剛部長講的你要找卓院長你找卓院長把所有的木粉全部給他開出來嘛需要什麼樣的人力需要什麼你們很顯然目前的跨部會是沒有辦法達到這樣的一個成果的嘛不是嗎"},{"start":619.841,"end":640.205,"text":"完全沒有辦法光是在校園裡面就只能直記過然後呢老師又還要人家檢舉然後呢又沒有人敢進入校園這個問題就是無解而且最重要的是體積非常的小攜帶非常的方便所以目前為止到這個地方我真的奉勸因為我才是第二個質詢我相信往後有所有的委員都會質詢這個問題你們真的應該好好來給一個公開的一個說法更積極性的做法否則我保證一路到底"},{"start":648.007,"end":648.027,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時38分）謝謝主席。洪孟楷委員沒質詢完的事情，我來繼續好了，我們請教育部長還有衛福部的代表，謝謝。"],["主席：兩位就可以了，是不是？"],["柯委員志恩：對，先兩位。"],["主席：我們就請教育部和衛福部。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝部長，我想我們今天會聚焦來這個地方，你認為電子煙或加熱菸在校園的問題嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實我看到衛福部的統計數字是嚇一跳。"],["柯委員志恩：非常的嚴重，你也特別提到去年菸害防制法修法之後，你認為在校園當中，電子煙跟加熱菸使用的人數是增加還是減少？因為法修了之後，就是希望它能夠減少，你認為現在目前是多還是少？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前看起來在各年齡階段裡面，國中是增加的。"],["柯委員志恩：所以表示這個修法還是有未盡之處嘛！對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["柯委員志恩：好，這是剛剛孟楷委員用的，還有你剛剛所講的，都是兩年前的資料，2022年那時候，這是國健署的調查嘛！我們全臺大概就是7.9萬青少年使用，那今年有多少，教育部有沒有掌握？教育部顯然沒有掌握嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：以國中來看，大概將近兩萬人。"],["柯委員志恩：來，我們來看一下，這都是兩年的資料，目前為止2024……因為兩年調查一次嘛！7.9萬人使用電子煙，超過1.6萬人使用加熱菸，這都是黑數，合計9.5萬青少年使用新興菸品，這是黑數，我還是要強調，光是黑數兩年前就這麼多，更不要說現在到底有多少，這就是為什麼今天我們的召委特別排這樣的一個議題，因為是非常非常的嚴重。我們問個最基本的問題好了，部長，校園裡面有沒有辦法真的來管理？如果學生被調查到擁有電子煙的話，學校的校規是怎麼來處理？部長，校規怎麼處理？兩大過、留校察看，還是如何？剛剛衛福部裡面也特別提到，如果有發現、有被檢舉的話，你們這邊的資料裡面寫了，如果發現使用電子煙，可以責成、轉請縣市地方衛生局查處，並且配合警政單位加強對於學校周邊商品……我請問，在校園，萬一在書包裡面搜到電子煙的話，它的校規處理是什麼？你怎麼查處？還有我要問，查處了多少件？我告訴部長，昨天就有一個家長非常生氣告訴我們，別人網路上買了電子煙之後，加價賣給他的女兒，還告訴大家可以一起來買、可以一起來抽，女兒買到的是加價後的，420塊加個100塊，賣他520塊，到處賣，你怎麼辦？部長，我只問個最單純的問題，學生在校內發生這樣問題的話，校規是怎麼懲處？基準點在哪裡？部長，你回答我這麼簡單問題，學校問題就好了。"],["鄭部長英耀：以學校的校規來講，他持有、違反校規是要記過處分的。"],["柯委員志恩：對，記過。就是我說嘛，最重可以記到什麼程度？兩個大過、留校察看，或是兩個小過，然後他再一次的持有電子煙，怎麼辦？兩個小過換一個大過，怎麼辦？這是校園裡面老師所問到的嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們更重要的是對學生有吸食電子煙，這裡怎麼樣去提供他這一個行為上的一些輔導跟規勸改善……"],["柯委員志恩：addiction，對成癮的這個問題進行輔導，這都是教育部官方的作法，我們知道這個問題非常的嚴重，我也同意源頭不管理的話，又丟回給學校，你認為學校的老師敢搜書包嗎？搜比不搜更麻煩。所以到底可不可以給我們一個行為準則，讓這些老師有個依據，你剛剛講的，萬一發現也不過就是記過，學生不會怕，不會怕啦！然後衛福部告訴我，你們就會責成地方單位來查處，到底查處了多少件？不要講這些東西，問題沒有解決，部長，你試圖要跟洪孟楷委員解釋很多你做了什麼，數據告訴你沒效、沒有用，然後這個東西是加重學校……我只問你，到底可以給老師什麼樣的一個行為準則來做依據，不要讓老師陷於他要不要來懲處？你知道目前為止，也就不過是記過的處分而已嘛，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：對學生的行為確實是記過，但是我們更重要的是他行為的一個改變跟改善，後端……"],["柯委員志恩：行為有那麼容易改變的話就好了。"],["鄭部長英耀：包含這一個來源、源頭，我們會……"],["柯委員志恩：源頭！對，好，部長沒關係，你的源頭到底怎麼來處理？我們是不是可以請法務部跟數發部過來，這是我們所看到的啊！網路賣電子煙到底是哪個部會管，誰可以告訴我網路賣電子煙是哪個部會管的？哪一個部會管這件事？哪一個部會？部長，你不要自己說是教育部，不是喔！這不是教育部！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，沒有，沒有。"],["柯委員志恩：是什麼部？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們是移送法務部跟……"],["柯委員志恩：法務部嗎？來，法務部告訴我，這是你們管的嗎？"],["郭司長永發：電子煙管理是衛福部。"],["柯委員志恩：喔！衛福部！來，來，衛福部，這是你們管的嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：電子煙是我管的。"],["柯委員志恩：好，是你們管的，在網路上面臨這麼多問題，電子煙是你管，所以我等一下問你成分問題，這麼多網路的部分是你管嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：確實要跨部會。"],["柯委員志恩：喔！跨部會，所以主責不是衛福部就對了？跨哪個部會？不是後面那個部會嗎？法務部跟數發部不都是跨部會，你們都在這個部分裡，但你們只告訴我目前為止可以懲處這些違法販賣的是罰20到100萬，到底主責在哪裡？跨部會，你知道任何時候只要跨部會就變成沒人要管，所以主要的部分是哪裡？"],["賈副署長淑麗：報告委員，只要它是跟電子煙有關的，就是我管。"],["柯委員志恩：好，包括在網路上散播的部分，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：所以我們現在是積極地在加強網路的查緝，從去年到現在，我們大概有三萬五千多件對網路的搜尋，我們有……"],["柯委員志恩：來，我告訴你，你們現在所搜尋的結果怎麼樣，我們看後面，目前為止琳瑯滿目，跨部會衛福部、法務部，以衛福部為主責，但是我們再往下看，這個部分大家認為源頭很重要，請問衛福部有查到源頭嗎？你們有辦法查到源頭嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們只能從網路平臺去找到販菸者，有查到販菸者是誰……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你目前為止查到幾件了？"],["賈副署長淑麗：目前販菸者在網路上，我們裁處賣菸的人是115件。"],["柯委員志恩：115件，來，我告訴你，我們來看一下，裁處的部分，你們一年多檢舉就有50萬件……"],["賈副署長淑麗：52萬……"],["柯委員志恩：大街小巷都可以看到電子煙，50萬件都是民眾檢舉，但是開罰率有多低？非常非常的低，到底開罰率有有多低？"],["賈副署長淑麗：現在開罰的件數，到10月底是1,370件。"],["柯委員志恩：0.24%，0.24%，連1%都不到！如果連1%都不到的話，你告訴我們，你們跨部執法有辦法嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：報告委員，電子煙菸害防制它的裁罰需要經過一些行政程序，所以我們在10月30號跟縣市溝通，要求加強裁罰的速度跟力道……"],["柯委員志恩：這已經非常久了，我不忍苛責你，因為我知道你們的人力、各方面都不夠，需要跨部會，我完全同意，但是你把電子煙攬在你們衛福部的權責，開罰率又這麼低，為什麼今天大家這麼生氣？你們講了很多，但是數據會說話，數據會說話……"],["賈副署長淑麗：瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：現在所有的家長多麼擔心！特別是我要問一下，部長，你可以暫時先請回座一下。你看0.24%的開罰率，沒人在怕的啦！我們再往下看加味菸，為什麼我今天要特別提到？今天當然很多人提到加味菸，你們當時上一任的人，大家認為加味菸應該是全面來做一個禁止的，但是你們現在只是禁止27種成分，然後有4種口味也禁止，對於菸草口味以外你們都是禁止，但是對不起，目前還是非常非常的嚴重氾濫。","我們再往下來看，這個部分它是全面應該禁止的，可是現在有很多的家長認為你們還是有開一點小門，因為目前為止，你們只禁止了27種的成分，但是現在加在一起夯不啷噹有一千兩百多種，你們要花多少時間，才可以把這些成分一一把它條列下來啊？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我跟委員報告，這27種的加味菸，目前是完成預告的程序……"],["柯委員志恩：現在已經超過這個筆數了。"],["賈副署長淑麗：對，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：全世界大概有一千兩百種吧？"],["賈副署長淑麗：但是我們禁用的這27種，大概cover 74%所有的菸品，所以我們會繼續滾動式的增加……"],["柯委員志恩：我告訴你，現在包括口味什麼，夯不啷噹加起來已經超過一千兩百種，為什麼我特別重視加味菸？因為你看到，今天討論到校園的問題，青少年當中，每10個吸菸者就有4個人用加味菸，它比其他的菸種更被青少年來做使用……"],["賈副署長淑麗：我知道。"],["柯委員志恩：而且女生使用的比率甚至高於男生，這些你都知道……"],["賈副署長淑麗：知道，對，所以加味菸這件事確實需要積極地去處理，目前我們是完成預告，緊接著我們就會開會把這27種，是不是一定是這27種或是……"],["柯委員志恩：你們永遠趕不上現在所有菸商所做的，我剛剛說目前為止，已經有一千兩百個不同的成分、不同口味的組合，已經不是27種的成分可以包括了，你現在列了27種，趕不上這樣的一個速度，這是我們最擔心的問題。所以衛福部目前真正的問題是什麼？你們如果需要人力的話，我也贊同啊！剛剛部長講的，你要找卓院長把所有的需求全部開出來嘛，需要什麼樣的人力，很需要什麼？很顯然目前的跨部會是沒有辦法達到這樣的一個成果的嘛，不是嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：謝謝委員。"],["柯委員志恩：完全沒有辦法，光是在校園裡面就只能記過，然後老師還要人家檢舉，又沒有人敢進入校園，這個問題就是無解，而且最重要的是體積非常的小、攜帶非常的方便，所以我真的奉勸，因為我才是第二個質詢，我相信往後所有的委員都會質詢這個問題，你們真的應該好好來給一個公開的說法、更積極性的作法。否則，我保證一路到底，你們這樣的一個回應還是沒有辦法，真的浪費掉召委今天排這件事情的苦心。光是「跨部會」這三個字，只是代表行政能力的怠惰，沒有辦法解決我們現在的問題，時間到了，謝謝。"],["賈副署長淑麗：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員。"],["主席（柯委員志恩代）：現在請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156571","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156571","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef05467f9fd10ed776081be9b0bd4ecc214d5703e17d4a2046a8deb84b7fcc79dab935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"09:34:40 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我們請部長請您部長"},{"start":13.22,"end":30.922,"text":"部長好委員好部長這一次的總統大選之後我看到我們很多部門像昨天我在諮詢經濟部長的時候我問他說那台美關係還有會不會有變化那他是說不會有變化那就是堅若磐石跟過去一樣部長你覺得這樣的說法"},{"start":33.18,"end":59.477,"text":"其實民主國家選舉競爭跟政黨人力是常態也都有變與不變那有一些不管是法律或政策會延續但是也有一些人士可能因為新的政見主張那基本上台美關係除了總統的選舉以外其實國會是一個觀察指標我跟委員也可以報告一下因為您很關心在國會友台的力量"},{"start":60.698,"end":70.069,"text":"這部分我們到目前為止以這個參議院這一次我們有30幾位我們友台小組的成員9位是這一次面臨的改選目前知道的有6位已經公佈的都是連任所以相當穩定那在眾議院方面"},{"start":80.701,"end":86.847,"text":"四位共同主席也都順利連任所以更為增強對台灣在國會上面的支持的力量那部長講得很好有變與不變所以當我們說這個完全沒有改變這是錯誤的訊息"},{"start":100.126,"end":121.897,"text":"我們美台之間的夥伴關係不會改變但是美國的領導層的變化跟他們的未來任用的內閣當然會有不同的政治的意識形態當然有不同的外交政策只是說我們要怎麼樣因應這樣的情勢這才是重點首先要了解狀況不能說全部都一樣堅若磐石"},{"start":122.757,"end":139.509,"text":"但是卻沒有因應說川普政權接下來的這種貿易上面經濟上面外交上面安全保障上面的政策的改變所以我必須要來特別來強調我們要怎麼樣把我們的論述完整化才不會被"},{"start":140.834,"end":159.849,"text":"中國方面可能會用以美論來趁機來介入這就是重點比方說我想要請教一下在經貿的部分川普是非常注重要把企業留在美國要把工作機會留在美國要把科技業留在美國那甚至有可能會對其他國家我就"},{"start":160.549,"end":167.39,"text":"確實我們要了解對方現在新政府的政策方向比如說像投資美國創造就業機會那這個是我們正在做而且很明顯可以看到包括台積電還有各方面的投資"},{"start":189.316,"end":209.994,"text":"另外一個其實我們現在在推的經濟外交在美國方面就是川普總統我想他任內啟動的包括乾淨網路就是這一些都是去紅色供應鏈包括電信跟5G以及EPPD這最重要"},{"start":210.555,"end":210.955,"text":"首先我們是可以不斷地跟他們強調"},{"start":230.299,"end":255.555,"text":"在台灣生產這個高科技的晶片是有效率的經濟有效率上面所以要說服或者是用我們的論述比如說強調鞏固台灣對美國的經濟整體的發展是更有效率那第二部分有人會問說那我們的這個台灣的這個晶片會不會受到影響那我們當然會說會有影響可是他的影響也可以是正面的台灣不一定有這麼多的土地來去建設廠房"},{"start":256.636,"end":276.625,"text":"分散一部分的投資在美國把最高製程的留在台灣這確實是也符合台美之間的利益再來就是會有一些論述說這樣子這個美國不斷的要求台灣來增加我們的這個國防預算這也符合台灣利益跟美國利益啊當我們現在粗糙美國的時候代表說台灣跟美國之間的貿易是增長的"},{"start":277.325,"end":298.185,"text":"這就是經濟上面的互助既榮邦那又能夠把我們的貿易往上一層但是滿足我自己的國防需求是以符合台灣的利益啊所以哪有什麼有一些人會說什麼繳保護費什麼時候鞏固自己的國家的國防變成繳保護費這種說法我們必須第一時間就要把這個錯誤的論述把它打破是"},{"start":298.826,"end":309.919,"text":"除此之外我們不僅跟美國的貿易是這8年來是最好的狀況之外同時我們有多出來的這些如果要確保說貿易是平衡的貿易是對等的"},{"start":310.902,"end":338.112,"text":"跟美國來去採購最先進的防衛的系統防衛的服務這有什麼不對這當然是可以增加我國的防衛能量有人說川普說要提到10%但是我們另外一方面也要跟他們強調一點就是說我們當然願意緩慢的把我們的應該說是在暗部就班的把我們國防預算提高但是在暗部就班的把國防預算提高的時候也要確保美國的生產量能夠跟上我國的採購需求"},{"start":338.892,"end":339.112,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":369.853,"end":385.26,"text":"讓美國再次偉大不能沒有台灣如果沒有了台灣跟美國的這種夥伴關係那美國也很難再次偉大因為像台積電這樣的投資他是一個很國際化的公司外資佔了將近七成"},{"start":388.502,"end":403.961,"text":"所以我們要了解說在美國的投資這個是互惠的那因為他本身也要發展晶片產業所以有人講說是不是什麼台灣plusone要去把台灣的供應鏈從台灣移出其實我們從另外一個角度來講是台灣plusn"},{"start":405.883,"end":422.828,"text":"這台灣的全球布局隨著這個供應鏈的重組我們更有韌性這個因應未來的國際政經的變化所以我覺得美台關係沒有必要去分化我想中共在這方面不斷在操作所謂的以美論我認為是錯的而且沒有必要"},{"start":425.649,"end":452.242,"text":"並且不會成功謝謝部長那再來就是說關於這個他對盟邦或者是安全保障的做法那一定跟拜登是不太一樣的那可能風格不一樣風格不一樣那我相信基本的一個民主國家他的政策法令還有一些關係是延續的對那我必須強調說那這樣的他的政策方針不一樣的話我們要相應的去調整嘛比方說他可能"},{"start":452.842,"end":456.325,"text":"印太戰略本來就是一個區域乃至全球的戰略它是超越雙邊的同樣在第一島鏈我想川普總統就是"},{"start":479.346,"end":479.506,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":497.757,"end":519.629,"text":"我們可能要立刻主動接洽多邊跟我們國家比較有利害相關的國家其實我跟委員報告因為美國選舉其實像包括在歐洲我們理念相近的國家他們也都開始在調整這個是必然的對 這個時候我們可能就是要更加注重地緣政治那可能"},{"start":520.529,"end":537.79,"text":"部長上台之後價值外交的這個他的順位他也必須要相應調整對於川普來講所謂的價值外交我們要這樣子的跟他的這樣的接觸的方式跟縮帖也一定要調整因為對他來講"},{"start":539.11,"end":540.051,"text":"美國大選政策明顯不同"},{"start":555.23,"end":582.492,"text":"針對這個不同當然要調整我們的所有縮帖所以我當然是認同價值外交我當然是覺得說這個我們台灣跟許多歐洲的民主國家一樣子在倡導這個民主自由人權但是現在的美國他們重視的是國家利益那這個部分我們也必須因應新的政府來做出新的調整我想這個是非常重要但第二點我們也要擔心的齁包含這一個"},{"start":583.713,"end":607.481,"text":"馬斯克在這幾天我記得是新鏈的部分可能一些這個生產鏈都說因為地緣政治的挑戰可能會轉移我想這方面也必須要找到相應的人員來去說服說在台灣生產是有效率的在台灣生產是符合美國利益跟美國戰略的這些鞏固台灣的這些做法"},{"start":608.081,"end":632.749,"text":"我們也必須要跟他們一一的來去了解甚至他們是在商言商所以針對一些特殊的這些租稅或者是相關的這些經濟的措施可能都變成必須要我們要連串去思考就不可以說這是經濟部的事情外交部就變成要統合這一切就包含今天如何加入CPTPP在經濟委員會外交部也有書面報告所以大家要串起來因為現在"},{"start":634.534,"end":639.299,"text":"不比這過去四年完全不同的方針施政的方式必須要因應"},{"start":640.492,"end":665.562,"text":"我是覺得提升臺灣的一個就是競爭的優勢那技術深耕臺灣產線佈局全球其實供應的重組有它的趨勢那臺灣在這裡面怎麼應用這個趨勢來佈局所以並不是說好像供應要從臺灣移出其實這個也是一個我們國力的擴張嘛延伸嘛所以我想說剛剛講到比如說以這個新鏈它的這個供應鏈那臺灣的優勢"},{"start":668.123,"end":670.345,"text":"時間已經到,最後再補充一點就是我們剛剛提到的晶片相關的法案我們希望說我們在駐美的辦事處來去強調"},{"start":692.761,"end":692.842,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":714.443,"end":718.285,"text":"以晶片與半導體產業來講,臺美關係是分工合作,是互補的關係,所以它不會傷害自己,因為臺灣的重要性已經跟美國的晶片發展是融為一體。"},{"start":743.135,"end":764.261,"text":"他佈局什麼樣的策略我想業者也有相當的準備跟意義因為主要我們會談這個的我們的擔憂是因為之前的共和黨的眾議院議長有提到所以我們必須在他提到之後立刻要有我們的縮帖立刻去反映這是我們執行的目的他說清楚有些誤解的地方確實要呈現正確的資訊給對方參考有這個問題所以我們要解釋說這不是問題"},{"start":769.662,"end":769.702,"text":"臺灣每賺一塊錢"},{"start":784.54,"end":784.74,"text":"這部長你剛才"},{"start":808.813,"end":832.523,"text":"信守連台就把這些數字都已經有講到那如果方便的話相關的縮帖也給我們特別是針對晶片的我們希望說我們國會議員如果去訪美的時候必須有有所本現在已經有所本了有所準備我請那個港外議員我們同格拿給委員跟其他國家的國會議員交流的時候必須要有立刻的方式去把這樣的輿論來把它做起來好不好好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":123,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（9時34分）你好，請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。部長，這一次的總統大選之後，我看到我們很多部門……像昨天我在質詢經濟部長的時候問他說，臺美關係會不會有變化？他是說：不會有變化，堅如磐石、跟過去一樣。部長，你同不同意這樣的說法？"],["林部長佳龍：其實民主國家的選舉競爭跟政黨輪替是常態，也都有變與不變，不管是法律或政策會延續，但是也有一些人事可能會有新的政見、主張。基本上，臺美關係除了總統選舉以外，其實國會是一個觀察指標，我跟委員也可以報告一下，因為你很關心在國會友臺的力量，這部分到目前為止，以參議院這一次來說，我們有三十幾位友臺小組的成員，9位面臨這次的改選，目前據我們知道的，已經公布6位都是連任，所以相當穩定，在眾議院方面，4位共同主席也都順利連任……"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長……"],["林部長佳龍：所以更為增強在國會上面支持臺灣的力量……"],["陳委員冠廷：通知我們……在國會上面，很快速地給我們這樣子的盤點，部長講得很好，有變與不變，所以當我們說完全沒有改變，這是錯誤的訊息，我們美臺之間的夥伴關係不會改變，但是美國領導層的變化跟他們未來任用的內閣當然會有不同的政治意識形態，當然有不同的外交政策，只是說我們要怎麼樣因應這樣的情勢，這才是重點。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：首先要了解狀況，不會說全部都一樣，堅如磐石，但是卻沒有因應川普政權接下來在貿易、經濟、外交、安全保障的政策的改變，所以我必須要特別強調，我們要怎麼樣把我們的論述完整化，才不會被……因為中國方面可能會用疑美論來趁機揭露，這就是重點。我想要請教一下在經貿的部分，川普非常注重，要把企業留在美國、要把工作機會留在美國、要把科技業留在美國，甚至有可能會對其他國家包含臺灣，晶片可能會徵稅，或者是說過去晶片法案給臺灣也好，或者是其他鼓勵設廠的這些補助也有可能會減少，我們要怎麼因應這樣的說法？"],["林部長佳龍：確實我們要了解對方現在新政府的政策方向，比如說像投資美國創造就業機會，這個我們正在做，而且很明顯可以看到包括台積電還有各方面的投資；另外一個我們現在在推的經濟外交，在美國方面就是川普總統，我想他任內啟動的包括乾淨網路這一些都是，包括去紅色供應鏈，包括電信跟5G以及EPPD，這最重要，也就是美臺之間經濟繁榮夥伴架構，就是美臺合作到第三國或第三地去合作，能夠強化對我們邦交國，這就跟固邦到榮邦的關係概念是一樣的……"],["陳委員冠廷：第一點，就是我們剛才提到的晶片法案，首先我們可以不斷地跟他們強調，第一個，在臺灣生產高科技晶片是有效率的，經濟是有效率的，所以要說服或者是用我們的論述，比如說強調鞏固臺灣對美國整體經濟的發展是更有效率，第二個部分，有人會問臺灣的晶片會不會受到影響，我們當然會說有所影響，可是它的影響也可以是正面的，臺灣不一定有這麼多的土地來建設廠房，分散一部分的投資在美國，把最高製程的留在臺灣，這確實也符合臺美之間的利益，再來就是會有一些論述，說美國不斷地要求臺灣增加國防預算，這也符合臺灣利益跟美國利益，當我們現在出超美國的時候，代表臺灣跟美國之間的貿易是增長的，這就是經濟上面的互助，既榮邦又能夠把我們的貿易往上一層，並且滿足我國自己的國防需求，這是符合臺灣的利益，所以哪有什麼……有一些人會說什麼繳保護費，什麼時候鞏固自己國家的國防變成要繳保護費這種說法？我們必須第一時間就要把這個錯誤的論述給打破。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：除此之外，我們跟美國的貿易狀況不僅是這8年來最好的之外，同時我們有多出來的這些，如果要確保貿易是平衡的、對等的，跟美國採購最先進的防衛系統、防衛的服務，這有什麼不對？這當然可以增加我國的防衛能量，有人說川普說要提到10%，但是我們另外一方面也要跟他們強調一點，我們當然願意緩慢地把我們的……應該說是在按部就班地提高我們的國防預算，但是在按部就班地把國防預算提高的時候，也要確保美國的生產量能夠跟上我國的採購需求，所以這是一連串的論述，當我們達成這個論述的時候，相關的疑美論自然而然的就可以把它給化解掉，你覺得這個看法怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得疑美論是沒有必要啦！因為美國跟臺灣的關係不只是分享共同的理念，還是互利的關係，而且美臺的經濟整合可以說是相當的深，簡單來講就是讓美國再次偉大不能沒有臺灣，如果沒有臺灣跟美國這種夥伴關係，那美國也很難再次偉大，因為像台積電這樣的投資，它是一個很國際化的公司，外資占了將近七成，所以我們要了解在美國的投資是互惠的，因為它本身也要發展晶片產業，所以有人講說是不是Taiwan plus one，要把臺灣的供應鏈從臺灣移出，其實我們從另外一個角度來講是Taiwan plus n，臺灣的全球布局隨著供應鏈的重組，我們更有韌性，這個是因應未來國際政經的變化。","所以我覺得美臺關係沒有必要去分化，我想中共在這方面不斷在操作所謂的疑美論，我認為是錯的，而且沒有必要，並且不會成功。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。再來是關於他對盟邦或者是安全保障的作法，一定跟拜登不太一樣，可能……"],["林部長佳龍：對，風格不一樣。"],["陳委員冠廷：風格不一樣，我相信……"],["林部長佳龍：但是基本的民主國家的政策法令還有一些關係是延續的。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，但我必須強調，他的政策方針如果不一樣，我們要相應的去調整，比方說，過去拜登跟北約之間的關係是很密切的，跟歐洲盟邦關係很密切，對美、日、韓的關係是非常密切的，現在可能更注重雙邊，在這個情況下，你覺得我們的外交作為該如何？"],["林部長佳龍：我想印太戰略本來就是區域乃至全球的戰略，它是超越雙邊的，同樣在第一島鏈，我想川普總統讓美國真正重返亞洲，甚至到太平洋到印度洋連結，因為國際政治有互相連動，所以在歐洲的一個情況，包括俄烏戰爭的發展，我們要密切關注，因為這也代表新政府可能的作風……"],["陳委員冠廷：我想我們可能要立刻主動接洽多邊跟我們國家比較有利害相關的國家。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，因應美國選舉，其實包括歐洲跟我們理念相近的國家，他們也都開始在調整，這個是必然的。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，這個時候我們可能就是要更加注重地緣政治，部長上臺之後，價值外交的順位也必須要相應調整。對於川普來講，所謂的價值外交，我們跟他接觸的方式跟說帖也一定要調整，因為對他來講，地緣政治的挑戰他放在比較前面，他對於美國的貿易跟美國的產業，他的重心會放得更重要，所以說這次從美國大選的政策就可以看出明顯的不同，針對這個不同，我們當然要調整所有的說帖，我當然是認同價值外交，我當然是覺得臺灣跟許多歐洲的民主國家一樣在倡導民主、自由、人權，但是現在的美國重視的是國家利益，這個部分我們也必須因應新的政府來做出新的調整，我想這個是非常重要。","但第二點，我們也要擔心，包含馬斯克在這幾天，我記得是星鏈SpaceX的部分，可能一些生產鏈會因為地緣政治的挑戰，可能會轉移，我想這方面也必須要找到相應的人員來去說服在臺灣生產是有效率的，在臺灣生產是符合美國利益跟美國戰略的，這些鞏固臺灣的作法，我們也必須要跟他們一一地來去了解，甚至他們是在商言商，所以，針對一些特殊的租稅，或者是相關的經濟措施，可能變成必須要……我們要連串去思考，不可以說這是經濟部的事情，外交部就變成要統合這一切，就像今天經濟委員會安排了包括如何加入CPTPP的相關議程，外交部也有提書面報告嘛，所以大家要串起來，因為現在不比過去四年，完全不同的方針、施政的方式必須要因應。"],["林部長佳龍：我是覺得提升臺灣的競爭優勢，技術深耕臺灣、產線布局全球，其實供應鏈的重組有它的趨勢，臺灣在這裡面怎麼因應這個趨勢來布局，並不是說好像供應鏈要從臺灣移出，其實這個也是我們國力的擴張、延伸，所以委員剛剛講到的，比如以星鏈的供應鏈來說，臺灣的優勢是不能沒有臺灣，因為這個很清楚，我們在資通訊上、在晶片產業上，但是在布局上怎麼樣做有其一定的經濟邏輯，配合地緣政治的變化，我們確實要……"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，因為時間已經到，我最後再補充一點就好，不好意思，召委，就是我剛剛提到晶片相關的法案，我們希望駐美辦事處應該要去強調，用鼓勵的政策，不要用類似提高關稅的政策來懲罰像我們這些重要的盟邦，這是很重要的，必須要說服他們，鼓勵晶片，透過租稅的獎勵或者是其他財政的方式讓這些公司接受輔助，有助於美國跟包含臺灣的各個國家的利益，但是如果只是用單純的提高關稅，然後進口晶片要課稅的話，是既傷害到美國的利益，也傷害到支持美國的盟邦，所以我認為這是一個重中之重。"],["林部長佳龍：對，以晶片跟半導體產業來講，臺美關係是分工合作、互補的關係，所以它不會傷害自己啦，臺灣的重要性已經跟美國的晶片發展融為一體……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們當然希望不要傷害自己，畢竟共和黨籍的眾議院議長是有……"],["林部長佳龍：至於布局什麼樣的策略，我想業者也有相當的準備跟因應。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們會談這個，我們會擔憂，主要是因為之前共和黨的眾議院議長有提到嘛，所以必須在他提到之後立刻要有我們的說帖，立刻去反映，這就是我們質詢的目的……"],["林部長佳龍：對，要說清楚，有一些誤解的地方……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們不是說這個沒有問題，都沒有問題……"],["林部長佳龍：確實要呈現正確的資訊給對方參考。"],["陳委員冠廷：有這個問題，所以我們要解釋說這不是問題嘛，這樣是符合臺灣利益的。"],["林部長佳龍：所以我講說，比如以晶片來講，臺灣跟美國的關係，最重要的是在供應鏈裡面還是占最大的一個產值，臺灣每賺1塊錢它會賺3塊錢，我們是做苦工，在做晶片製造，它在設計還有相關的設備上，跟著我們的包括半導體大廠的發展，它也會得利，所以我想說，讓彼此利益一致的關係就是外交最重要的，所以感謝委員對這方面的提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，你剛才信手拈來就把這些數字都講到了，如果方便的話，相關的說帖也給我們，特別是針對晶片的部分，我們希望我們國會議員如果去訪美的時候必須有所本，特別是……"],["林部長佳龍：現在已經有所本了，有所準備，我請同仁趕快拿給委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們跟其他國家的國會議員交流時，必須要有立刻的方式去把這樣的輿論做起來，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員，部長請回。","接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}},{"id":"156570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054c9d6f05b17acd61013be6769c271087b703e17d4a2046a8de3cd4a860c83e6025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:34:16 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那經貿辦公室您的看法我們跟美國之間在長年以來已經建立了很多很良好的經貿互動的基礎所以包括我們台灣跟美國的21世紀倡議的談判"},{"start":130.336,"end":156.274,"text":"還有包括了我們的TTIC跟EPPD這些雙邊的合作平臺那我們接下來會持續的跟川普新政府希望可以維持這些在新這些平臺既有平臺上面的互動這個副總談判代表您剛才講到臺美21世紀貿易倡議你這個會本席很高興你有提到這一點因為這個是被視為臺美的自由貿易協定"},{"start":159.956,"end":181.713,"text":"今天的主題都是講多邊但是這個臺美世紀貿易倡議談判其實在我們本國來講是認為我們跟臺美的自由貿易協定所以你認為會不會有受影響以及你們與你的因應對策那本席最在意的在去年6月簽署之後那執行的效果又是如何謝謝委員的追尋那就這個議題呢我們就是會持續跟現在的"},{"start":188.334,"end":195.898,"text":"在川普政府上任之後的新的經貿團隊持續維持聯繫來確認他們接下來的經貿談判的策略當然我們會盡可能的努力去朝向繼續維持在臺美倡議之下好 那我們有請國部長"},{"start":207.199,"end":225.885,"text":"部長剛才你兩項分析啊那美國對中國課60%所以迫使供應鏈一定重整產品更會重視供應鏈的去紅化所以本期就是要講到說好我們國內的所有產業政策您所督導的這個技術過往的技術現在技術師那還有產發署"},{"start":231.027,"end":246.846,"text":"那還有工業區等在整個去紅化我們的相關的預算跟的補助跟這個政策的導向上那就是應該要更聚焦了這是本席的一個呼應你也希望政策上能夠聚焦在此去紅化"},{"start":247.887,"end":276.632,"text":"那第二個其他國家課政10%跟20%的關稅美國製造也就一定會成為趨勢了所以台積電到這個半導體等半導體廠繼續在美投資這也勢必勢必的趨勢好本席關心的在川普的選舉過程當中他講保付費這三個字他對關稅他對晶片補助很有意見"},{"start":277.552,"end":280.334,"text":"尤其臺灣對美國的順差是這麼的大昨天臺積電ADR的液盤跌1.3%川普對於晶片政策顯示一定會帶來衝擊所以臺灣既有的晶片設廠計畫尤其我高雄廠"},{"start":297.955,"end":317.695,"text":"是否會受到影響?而且這個台積電確定也一定會至少在他任內一定會深耕美國我的就業機會、我的人才會不會因為而流失?全球供應業也因為川普的當選我相信又有一波的重整潮"},{"start":318.496,"end":342.109,"text":"所以我們經濟部又做了哪些準備所以因為順差大會不會取消我們的關稅跟晶片的補助部長你怎麼因應以及我高雄廠的晶片設廠會不會受到影響第三全球供應的再次重整經濟部如何因應報告委員這個台積電他赴美投資我想這個是從川普政府開始"},{"start":343.476,"end":347.382,"text":"臺積電赴美投資社長加上供應商將為美國帶來數以萬計的工作機會美國政府對臺積電的重視跟支持應該不會改變"},{"start":358.072,"end":375.503,"text":"那麼因為他有很多的是法令晶片法是法令所以他也不會那麼那他會取消這個晶片的補助啊這是他所謂的保護費啊他會取消臺灣對一些相關的關稅啊這個部分我們都有一些因應的辦法"},{"start":376.653,"end":396.11,"text":"那本席最在意的是我高雄廠的社長會被影響那沒關係部長我做一個提點我們意向就是希望他上任之後至少他內閣團隊也我相信還有一段時間的就職那我想我們要積極的因應好那另外一個議題就是針對我國要加入國際經貿合作"},{"start":397.711,"end":424.576,"text":"本席就一直很認為是要務實所以我對現在外交部的工作我非常非常的肯認他把臺灣的經濟的軟實力如何來加惠我們的邦交國甚至潛力的非邦交國他們的做法那當然我也知道我們經濟部也參與其中所以這個部分我非常非常肯定所以在另外一個議題就是如何讓高雄成為南進呂宋島經濟難帶的基地"},{"start":427.276,"end":451.481,"text":"好 那這個每日非三國領袖在今年4月的時候聯合聲明了這個全球基建夥伴的投資夥伴關係這也就是我們俗稱的這個呃呃呂宋島的經濟那因為時間的關係我聚焦石化產業經濟部是否現在還在評估石化業參與呂宋島經濟走廊的合作範疇"},{"start":455.802,"end":480.748,"text":"現在行政院已經核定的新市經是否還要繼續執行?部長您回答這兩個問題報告委員我想這個區域經濟的發展是近期在國際上不斷地在討論的那麼全球自由化已經滅亡這個我想前幾天張忠謀董事長也有在呼應這個命題所以我們關心鄰近的區域的國家的發展"},{"start":481.653,"end":506.721,"text":"那麼至於您剛剛所關心的石油化是不是外移我想這一個應該不是在我們討論的這個面子之內好 非常好那我想這個整我至少我高雄整個石化業全台灣40萬的從業人口我想因為你這句話他們放120個心好 那現在核定的新事情要不要繼續進行呢因為行政院核定之後中油馬上第一件工作就是環評環評在國內沒有一年以上它不叫環評"},{"start":511.542,"end":521.465,"text":"所以他需要時間他馬上是要核定的那現在董事長、總經理也都在經濟部核定之下上任了所以新事情要不要如期的進行了"},{"start":522.948,"end":549.741,"text":"這個我想要這個院裡面來做決定那院已經核定了部長這是上次在陳建仁院長的時候他核定的那現在已經核定之後到你到你這個經濟部了那經濟部下中遊也接到指令了所以部長新世青是不是按照我們既定的既然石化會沒有外移就當然就是照既定的計畫去執行啊部長那你支不支持新世青現在馬上繼續按計畫執行呢"},{"start":552.086,"end":554,"text":"這個我想我們還需要跟高雄市政府來討論"},{"start":555.416,"end":579.41,"text":"市政府當然我們已經行政院合併的事情部長我們是不是讓新市經繼續因為這個跟市政府沒有關係了環評當然會有這相關的環保相關的這個流程需要市政府的環保局提供意見需要經發局相關的提供意見當然他們一定得提供意見那部長是不是您要支持新市經繼續按計畫執行呢"},{"start":583.086,"end":585.619,"text":"我這個回去跟經濟部的同仁討論"},{"start":587.128,"end":592.673,"text":"好 部長好 那你就繼續討論我還會繼續問你這個沒有進入狀況喔 部長好 新世青這個是已經爭取了多久然後呢 這個合併了那因為你的一句話好 那我們說要外移大家這個簡直就是炸鍋了然後現在新世青是有關我的環保、公安、智慧管理導入我的這個石化產業整個高質化的全面提升啦"},{"start":613.832,"end":631.873,"text":"部長我再問一次新市經是不是按照行政院合併的計劃去執行現在趕快進入到環評的程序好 謝謝謝謝委員 這個我們就是執行單位嘛已經通過的我們當然會進行好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝林代化委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":199,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時34分）有請經濟部部長跟經貿談判辦公室。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長、談判辦公室顏副總談判代表。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：第一個，本席想了解現在政府的分析跟因應。美國川普總統當選之後，對產業有哪些影響？你們的觀察跟因應是什麼？請部長跟經貿辦公室各自回答。"],["郭部長智輝：對不起，委員，你剛才講的是？"],["林委員岱樺：川普總統當選之後對產業有什麼可能的影響？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，對產業的影響是這樣子，因為川普總統一向主張美國優先的單邊主義，所以對全球自由貿易的發展將會有影響，主要是他要對中國的產品加徵60%的關稅，那麼對臺灣或者是其他的國家，大概就是10%到20%的關稅，所以我認為應該是對我們在中國的臺商影響會比較大，其他的國家應該都一樣，因為所有要賣到美國的東西被課的稅金如果是一樣的話，其實是不會有太大的影響。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，您的這個觀察對應到我國的產業政策，應該還有哪些重點要加強呢？"],["郭部長智輝：在產業上，我們扶植的主要是出口的產業，我們要讓它趁著這個機會，因應市場上面的改變，我們要強化它的競爭力。"],["林委員岱樺：好，經貿辦公室，您的看法？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我們跟美國之間長年以來已經建立了很多很良好的經貿互動基礎，所以包括我們臺灣跟美國的21世紀貿易倡議的談判，還有包括了我們的TTIC跟EPPD的這一些雙邊合作平臺，我們接下來會持續地跟川普新政府互動，希望可以維持在這一些既有平臺上面的互動。"],["林委員岱樺：好，副總談判代表，您剛才講到臺美21世紀貿易倡議，本席很高興你有提到這一點，因為這個是被視為臺美的自由貿易協定，今天的主題都是講多邊，但是這個臺美21世紀貿易倡議談判，其實在本國來講，被認為是臺美的自由貿易協定，所以你認為會不會受影響，以及你們預擬的因應對策為何？本席最在意的是，在去年6月簽署之後，執行的效果又是如何？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員的垂詢，就這個議題，我們會持續跟川普政府上任之後的新經貿團隊維持聯繫，來確認他們接下來的經貿談判策略。當然，我們會儘可能地努力去朝向繼續維持在臺美倡議之下……"],["林委員岱樺：好，有請郭部長。部長，剛才你的兩項分析，美國若對中國課60%的關稅，一定會迫使供應鏈重整，產品更會重視供應鏈的去紅化，所以本席就是要講到，我們國內的所有產業政策，您所督導的技術，過往的技術，現在的技術司、產發署，還有工業區等等，在整個去紅化的部分，我們相關的預算、補助跟政策的導向上，應該是要更聚焦了，這是本席對你的一個呼應，也希望政策上能夠聚焦在此──去紅化。","第二個，其他國家課徵10%跟20%的關稅，美國製造也就一定會成為趨勢了，所以台積電的半導體廠繼續在美投資，這也是必然的趨勢。本席關心川普在選舉過程當中講了「保護費」這三個字，他對關稅、晶片的補助很有意見，尤其臺灣對美國的順差是這麼地大。昨天台積電ADR的夜盤跌1.3%，顯示川普的晶片政策一定會帶來衝擊，所以臺灣既有的晶片設廠計畫，尤其高雄廠是否會受到影響？而且台積電確定、至少在他任內一定會深耕美國，我的就業機會、我的人才會不會因此而流失？全球供應鏈因為川普的當選，我相信又會有一波的重整潮，經濟部又做了哪些準備？因為順差大，會不會取消我們的關稅跟晶片補助？部長，你怎麼因應？以及高雄廠的晶片設廠會不會受到影響？第三，全球供應鏈的再次重整，經濟部要如何因應？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，台積電赴美投資是從川普政府時代開始，台積電赴美投資設廠，加上供應商，將為美國帶來數以萬計的工作機會，美國政府對台積電的重視跟支持，應該是不會改變，因為其中有很多是法令，比如晶片法是法令，所以它也不會那麼……"],["林委員岱樺：但他會取消晶片的補助。"],["郭部長智輝：晶片的補助……"],["林委員岱樺：還是在他所謂的保護費，他會取消對臺灣晶圓相關的一些關稅優惠。"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我們都有一些因應的辦法。"],["林委員岱樺：本席最在意的是我們高雄廠的設廠，會不會受到影響。那沒關係，部長，我是做一個提點，我們希望他上任之後，至少他的內閣團隊要就職，我相信還有一段時間嘛，我想我們要積極的因應。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員岱樺：另外一個議題就是，針對我國加入國際經貿合作組織，本席一直認為我們要務實，所以對於現在外交部的工作，我非常非常的肯認他們的作法，他把臺灣經濟的軟實力如何來嘉惠我們的邦交國，甚至具有潛力的非邦交國，當然我也知道，我們經濟部也參與其中，這個部分我非常非常的肯定。另外一個議題就是，如何讓高雄成為南進呂宋島經濟廊帶的基地。美日菲三國領袖在今年4月聯合聲明「全球基建投資夥伴關係」，也就是我們俗稱的呂宋島經濟走廊，因為時間的關係，我聚焦在石化產業，現在經濟部是否還在評估石化業參與呂宋島經濟走廊的合作範疇？第二個，現在行政院已經核定的新四輕，是否還要繼續執行？部長，您回答這兩個問題。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，區域經濟的發展是近期國際上不斷的在討論的，全球自由化已經滅亡，前幾天張忠謀董事長也有在呼應這個命題，所以我們關心鄰近的區域國家的發展，至於您剛才所關心的石化產業是不是外移，我想這個應該不在我們討論的命題之內。"],["林委員岱樺：好，非常好，至少我高雄整個石化業，全臺灣40萬的從業人口，因為你這句話，我想他們可以放一百二十個心。那現在核定的新四輕要不要繼續進行？因為行政院核定之後，中油馬上第一件工作就是環評，環評在國內沒有一年以上不叫環評，所以它需要時間，它馬上是要核定的，現在董事長、總經理也都在經濟部核定之下上任了，所以新四輕要不要如期的進行了？"],["郭部長智輝：我想這個要院裡面來做決定。"],["林委員岱樺：院已經核定了，部長，這是上次在陳建仁院長的時候核定的，核定之後現在已經到你經濟部了，現在中油也接到指令了，所以部長，新四輕是不是按照我們既定的計畫，既然石化業沒有外移，當然就是照既定的計畫去執行，部長，那你支不支持新四輕現在馬上繼續按計畫執行呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我想我們還需要跟高雄市政府來討論。"],["林委員岱樺：市政府？這個已經是行政院核定的事情耶！部長，我們是不是讓新四輕繼續，因為這個跟市政府沒有關係了，當然在環評的流程中會需要市政府的環保局提供意見，也需要相關的經發局提供意見，當然他們一定得提供意見。部長，是不是您要支持新四輕繼續按計畫執行呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我回去跟經濟部的同仁討論。"],["林委員岱樺：好，部長，那你就繼續討論，我還會繼續問，你真的沒有進入狀況，部長，新四輕案已經爭取了多久，然後也核定了，因為你的一句話說我們要外移，大家簡直真的就是炸鍋了，現在新四輕是攸關環保、公安、智慧管理導入石化產業，涉及整個石化產業高值化的全面提升。部長，我再問一次，新四輕是不是按照行政院核定的計畫去執行，現在趕快進入到環評的程序？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，這個我們就是執行單位嘛，已經通過的我們當然會進行。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員，部長請回座，相關的列席官員請回座，謝謝。","下一位請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-11","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩請剛剛有報告的長官都一起上來好不好好 請剛剛以上我們有做口頭報告的這個各部會官員直接上這個備詢台我想主席在這邊先暫時先宣告一下因為今天那個鄭部長他大概腳傷那有點不舒服如果他待會有個人需求的話可能會有一張被的椅子還是要不要先拿出來吧椅子要不要就先拿出來"},{"start":35.267,"end":35.808,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":45.98,"end":62.566,"text":"來 部長 因為教育文化委員會嘛 教育部嘛那本期剛剛聆聽了四個部會的簡報大家都講得非常的漂亮又是跨部會合作 又是源頭管理 又是加強取締 又是打擊犯罪那我想請教部長 部長你認為現在電子煙的狀況 氾氾濫嚴不嚴重"},{"start":68.94,"end":77.124,"text":"根據剛才衛福部的統計數字以國中來講從1點幾到3點8、3點9這個數字確實是讓我有一點訝異很訝異是不是你覺得太高還是太低我覺得就國中生來講他確實不管他基於什麼樣的一個動機但是怎麼會去接觸這樣的一個接觸的"},{"start":100.334,"end":114.218,"text":"電子煙到目前為止我們台灣是規定20歲以下是吸紙煙嘛 對不對那電子煙到目前為止也是不合法嘛 對不對不合法所以說任何人都不能買嘛那部長你知不知道如果所以國中生來講的話要講什麼樣的暗號還是要什麼樣的管道才能夠去購買到電子煙"},{"start":121.64,"end":147.376,"text":"對不起,這一個我確實是不清楚本席告訴你啊,不需要啊不需要任何的暗號啊不需要任何的管道啊我說我去便利商店要買紫煙國中生要買紫煙便利商店的店員都來看一下身份證啊但是買電子煙一點身份認證都沒有啊來,我們來看一下我就說剛剛上來前我Google啊下一張我們先到最後一張"},{"start":151.069,"end":175.814,"text":"我Google打電子煙三個字兩個禮拜前我已經在未還委員會講過一次了很多委員也都提過說現在電子煙氾濫的程度是你們沒有辦法想像的結果Google電子煙我還不用打任何關鍵字我不用很聰明我不用打暗語電子煙三個字打了之後第一個搜尋是什麼衛福部下面四個是什麼"},{"start":178.291,"end":192.78,"text":"全都是電子煙的販賣官網耶他不是拍賣平台他不是小賣家他不是跟你隱晦他直接做官網給你看來我們再看上幾張看到上面有沒有長先驚喜滿千送百電子煙可以跟你來做促銷"},{"start":206.656,"end":233.446,"text":"部長,要不要猜一下現在電子煙有多少口味?國中生嘛,好奇嘛,蠻多嘛對,我們日常生活所有的水果、咖啡各方面的這個飲料的口味大概都有喔,部長你也算了解喔來,我們來看一下葡萄、荔枝、薄荷、哈密瓜、蜜桃、百香果全部應有盡有直接叫你加購物車"},{"start":234.793,"end":260.708,"text":"部長你再看一下那個價錢喔420塊國中生拿不拿得出來420塊我想現在以一般的家庭一個禮拜的零用錢可能幾百塊應該有他直接可以購買那為什麼我講說沒有身份認證因為這個上這個平台不用任何的身份不用任何的年齡限制他直接搜尋就搜尋得到再下一張免運費"},{"start":262.287,"end":284.103,"text":"可以說幫你送到72個小時3天的時間今天下訂3點後幫你送到全台灣任何一個便利商店學校附近有沒有便利商店有嗎有所以你們剛剛一直在講說我查緝學校附近的專賣店不用啊我上網之後我送到便利商店最後一張他很貼心啊"},{"start":285.014,"end":298.83,"text":"告訴你保障隱私所以提供隱秘的包裝服務不會註明內容物跟店家意思是什麼我今天去拿這個貨的時候我只要給錢他就直接給我不會查你的身份證件"},{"start":301.431,"end":328.886,"text":"如果說源頭不管理源頭如此的泛濫源頭如此的方便取得我今天教育部在一直講我要給老師我要給第一線的教官我要給老師什麼樣的一個稽查你覺得查得完嗎?是的我們把我們的所有責任沒有源頭管理然後我們把所有責任都給第一線的老師老師看到電子煙你要稽查你要取締但是學生有人權又不能收書包"},{"start":330.421,"end":348.928,"text":"然後結果沒想到這個買賣紫煙、酒類能不能在網路上購買能不能獲到付款不行耶連合法的紫煙跟酒類都不能在網路上獲到付款結果反而非法的電子煙那麼方便部長還有剛剛這幾位我們的長官們你們的每一個報告我都聽了我都看了"},{"start":361.004,"end":365.866,"text":"說稽查科技執法跨部會結果Google沒有人會用Google嗎大家稽查稽查什麼東西我想請教你們好意思在剛剛20分鐘前每一個人講說你們的報告在稽查結果Google一出來是這樣子的大方精美部長"},{"start":389.588,"end":405.334,"text":"你剛剛最後講到跨部會合作共同防制所以加強電子煙的查緝跟電子煙廣告的稽查建構較緊合作安全網路減少電子煙進入校園的機會分析"},{"start":406.991,"end":432.128,"text":"很希望你可以說到做到啊你要怎麼做跟委員報告這就是我進來520以後我事實上跟我們這個部會裡邊所以你從520到現在已經放任他四個多月又再放任他四個多月了我一直希望說校園不管霸凌或者陰害防制一定要整個從社區從包括警政的一個比較生態性的整體陳主委員剛才所提所以部長你覺得這是誰的問題學校的老師他真的力有未待對就是說"},{"start":436.551,"end":437.552,"text":"部長,學生現在能不能帶手機?"},{"start":465.971,"end":489.553,"text":"是的手機能不能5G上網可以學生可能他今天正在聽你這樣講的時候他可能他拿出手機來上網然後訂購三天後就可以在便利商店拿到貨文我們事實上已經跟這些傳播業者電信業者都已經在合作部長是跟誰在合作我們跟這個電信業者我們已經在談看怎麼樣去防制一些包括這個問題多久了來我們再到最後一頁"},{"start":494.502,"end":522.694,"text":"不覺得很諷刺嗎?其實本行...我說實在話台灣現在最大的問題是非法的東西比合法的東西好買不作為是政府官員的怠惰跟台灣最大的悲哀啊因為你不覺得看到這個狀況非常諷刺嗎?搜尋第一個是衛福部衛福部來我們請衛福部今天是副署長說實在話"},{"start":525.302,"end":550.874,"text":"我覺得非常難過是因為我兩個禮拜前直接跟著部長講部長也講說他要處理就過去兩個禮拜沒有耶感覺甚至變本加厲你看到這個情況你不覺得很諷刺嗎就是說我們衛福部的官網居然是跟其他販賣電子煙的擺在一起而且還比你多比你漂亮比你好看比你吸引人"},{"start":552.79,"end":555.871,"text":"所以我看到了這兩天有一個新聞叫做南投衛生局一個學生貼電子煙的圖片罰20萬對不對"},{"start":581.187,"end":591.872,"text":"是的有嗎有這個新聞一個學生貼一張電子煙的圖片罰20萬結果今天Google隨便查有一堆官網你們連下架能力都沒有"},{"start":593.134,"end":593.294,"text":"那是誰的問題 誰的問題"},{"start":622.488,"end":639.173,"text":"他還可以留在然後可以持續這是誰的問題這裡面其實需要看的是境內境外的我們在努力讓境內只要點TW的境內網站全部都封網了那境外網站會需要那個法務部還有今天數發部是不是有來來我再請教喔真的大家是覺得說這已經是麻木不仁到氾濫程度到那麼嚴重"},{"start":650.39,"end":675.772,"text":"我們就講說半年前性私密影像剛出來的時候全國大家都在關心有個論壇可以散發未成年的少年的照片媒體群起激憤報導可能會傷到我們民進黨政府的民調不到一天裡面訴發部、衛福部、教育部、相關部會"},{"start":677.592,"end":702.289,"text":"從你推我我推你到就讓那個官網就沒有辦法連結啦那現在電子煙的問題是不夠嚴重沒有人員傷亡還是因為它不夠有名還是它已經是氾濫到你管都不能管的程度所以說你讓它持續的在這邊我就說了剛剛副署長也承認了嘛兩個禮拜前我在外環委員會部長也知道啊"},{"start":703.186,"end":731.701,"text":"很多委員也關心啊我今天開第一炮我講的是我把它直接點出來因為我真的覺得說這樣的一個氾濫的程度背後到底有多少利益利益大到五個部會在這邊沒有一個人敢動他們沒有人敢動欸我都還沒有追查說財政部到底他的貨從哪裡來很多人講說Made in China海關偷渡來的啊"},{"start":733.059,"end":744.388,"text":"貨倉一個禮拜來一次啊但是今天五個部會站在這邊結果放任這樣的狀況沒有辦法處理沒有辦法負責沒有辦法下架沒有辦法遮蔽持續可以點部長我最後主席站起來了我其實整理真的很多很多質詢想要跟你討論啊但這個問題非常嚴重"},{"start":758.544,"end":767.515,"text":"我只想請教你今天自己講的第4頁跨部會合作共同防制什麼時候召開會議來討論要把這樣的問題給解決"},{"start":772.95,"end":795.906,"text":"也跟委員報告事實上卓院長在下個禮拜一也會有一個治安的一個匯報所以要推給卓院長部長你針對問題好不好你要推給卓院長我的意思是說我們本來內部就有一些然後我也跟事實上劉部長也提到說我們怎麼共同來建置一個像警務現在有一個APP的一個這樣一個"},{"start":798.308,"end":802.77,"text":"部長你到底知不知道我現在的問題是什麼?我跟你談Google搜尋隨便搜尋的到你跟我講警務App真的很麻木欸"},{"start":814.794,"end":830.98,"text":"我說這樣子真的很麻木 如果說我們連最基本的源頭管理都沒有防制的話那這樣子我們怎麼樣能夠阻止說電子煙進入到校園連校園的老師的責任都沒有辦法部長幫他們負責"},{"start":834.401,"end":834.541,"text":"你OK了嗎?"},{"start":856.215,"end":856.395,"text":"最後一句話"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":144,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時23分）主席謝謝，麻煩請剛剛有報告的長官都一起上來。"],["主席：請剛剛有做口頭報告的各部會官員直接上備詢臺。","主席在這邊暫時先宣告一下：今天鄭部長因為腳傷有點不舒服，如果他待會有個人需求的話，會有一張備的椅子讓他坐著。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是椅子要不要先拿出來？鄭部長腳受傷，是不是？"],["主席：沒關係，椅子就放在那裡，如果他有需求的話可能就會先坐下，所以主席先宣告一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：鄭部長自便，有不舒服你就坐一下。部長，因為教育及文化委員會、教育部，本席剛剛聆聽了四個部會的簡報，大家都講得非常漂亮，又是跨部會合作、又是源頭管理、又是加強取締、又是打擊犯罪，我想請教部長，你認為現在電子煙的狀況氾不氾濫、嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長英耀：根據剛才衛福部的統計數字，以國中來講，從百分之一點幾到3.8%、3.9%，這個數字確實是讓我有一點訝異。"],["洪委員孟楷：很訝異，是不是？你覺得太高還是太低？"],["鄭部長英耀：我覺得就國中生來講，不管他基於什麼樣的動機，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼會去接觸，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：這樣的接觸比例確實是有一點偏高，我們不希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣規定20歲以下是吸紙菸，電子煙到目前為止也是不合法，所以任何人都不能買，部長，你知不知道以國中生來講，要講什麼樣的暗號，還是要什麼樣的管道才能夠購買到電子煙？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，這個我確實是不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席告訴你不需要，不需要任何的暗號，不需要任何的管道，國中生去便利商店要買紙菸，便利商店的店員都還會看一下身分證，但是買電子煙卻一點身分認證都沒有。我們來看一下，我剛剛上來前用Google打「電子煙」3個字，兩個禮拜前我已經在衛環委員會講過一次了，很多委員也都有提過，現在電子煙氾濫的程度是你們沒有辦法想像的，我還不用打任何關鍵字，我不用很聰明，我不用打暗語，Google上打了「電子煙」3個字之後，第一個搜尋結果是什麼？衛福部，下面四個是什麼？全都是電子煙的販賣官網，它不是拍賣平臺，它不是小賣家，它不是跟你隱晦，它是直接做官網給你看。我們還看到這幾張圖片上面有「嘗鮮、驚喜、滿千送百」，電子煙可以來做促銷！部長要不要猜一下現在電子煙有多少口味？國中生好奇……"],["鄭部長英耀：還滿多的，我們日常生活所有的水果、咖啡、各方面的飲料口味大概都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你也算瞭解。我們來看一下，有葡萄、荔枝、薄荷、哈密瓜、蜜桃、百香果，全部應有盡有，直接叫你加購物車，部長，你再看一下那個價錢是420塊，國中生拿不拿得出420塊？現在以一般家庭一個禮拜的零用錢可能幾百塊應該有，他直接可以購買。為什麼我講沒有身分認證？因為上這個平臺不用任何的身分，不用任何的年齡限制，直接搜尋就搜尋得到。再來是免運費，72小時3天的時間可以到貨，今天下訂3天後幫你送到全臺灣任何一個便利商店，學校附近有沒有便利商店？"],["鄭部長英耀：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嘛！所以你們剛剛一直在講查緝學校附近的專賣店，不用啊！我可以上網購買之後再送到便利商店。最後，它很貼心，它告訴你為了保障隱私，所以提供隱密的包裝服務，不會註明內容物及店家，意思是什麼？我今天去拿這個貨的時候只要給錢，他就直接給我，不會查你的身分證件。如果源頭不管理，源頭如此的氾濫，源頭如此的方便取得，今天教育部一直在講要老師、第一線的教官怎麼樣稽查，你覺得查得完嗎？沒有源頭管理，我們把所有責任都丟給第一線的老師，老師看到電子煙要稽查、取締，但是學生有人權又不能搜書包，結果沒想到能夠這樣買賣。紙菸、酒類能不能在網路上購買？能不能貨到付款？不行！連合法的紙菸、酒類都不能在網路上購買後貨到付款，結果反而非法的電子煙那麼方便。","部長還有剛剛這幾位長官們，你們的每一個報告我都聽了、我都看了，你們說要稽查、科技執法、跨部會，結果沒有人會用Google嗎？我想請教大家稽查了什麼東西？你們好意思在剛剛20分鐘前，每一個人的報告都講你們在稽查，結果Google一出來是這樣子大方、精美！部長，你剛剛最後講到跨部會合作共同防制，會加強電子煙的查緝跟電子煙廣告的稽查，建構教警合作安全網絡，減少電子煙進入校園的機會，本席很希望你可以說到做到，你要怎麼做？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，跟委員報告，這就是我520進來以後，事實上跟我們部會裡……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你從520到現在已經放任它四個多月，又再放任它四個多月了？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我一直希望校園不管霸凌或者菸害防制，一定要整個從社區，包括警政，比較生態系的整體，誠如委員剛才所提……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你覺得這是誰的問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：學校的老師真的力有未逮，我們臺灣……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，就是學校第一線的教師都跟我們說，如果源頭不管理的話，我們再怎麼查、再怎麼管，學生非常容易買到，這才是臺灣現在的問題嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們臺灣學術網路已經阻斷所有這些不當訊息，在學校他是沒有辦法透過網路去取得相關的訊息，所以我們也希望家長、社區，包括商家，整個學校共同……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，學生現在能不能帶手機？手機能不能5G上網？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：學生今天正在聽你這樣講的時候，可能他拿出手機來上網訂購，3天後就可以在便利商店拿到貨了。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們事實上跟這些電信業者都已經在合作……"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以請教一下，部長，跟誰在合作？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們跟電信業者已經在談，看怎麼樣去防制一些包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個問題多久了？來，我們再到最後一頁，不覺得很諷刺嗎？我說實在話，臺灣現在最大的問題是非法的東西比合法的東西好買，不作為是政府官員的怠惰跟臺灣最大的悲哀啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在努力……"],["洪委員孟楷：你不覺得看到這個狀況非常諷刺嗎？搜尋第一個是衛福部，來，我們請衛福部，今天是副署長，說實在話，我覺得非常難過，因為我兩個禮拜前直接跟部長講，部長也講說他要處理，結果過去兩個禮拜，沒有耶！感覺甚至變本加厲耶！"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：看到這個情況，你不覺得很諷刺嗎？我們衛福部的官網居然是跟其他販賣電子煙的擺在一起，而且還比你多、比你漂亮、比你好看、比你吸引人！我們是化外之地是不是？"],["賈副署長淑麗：跟委員報告，兩個禮拜前的衛環委員會質詢之後，我們已經更積極地跟地方共同來做一些查處，另外在……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以我看到了這兩天有一個新聞，一個學生貼電子煙的圖片被南投衛生局罰20萬，對不對？"],["賈副署長淑麗：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嘛！"],["賈副署長淑麗：有這個新聞。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個學生貼一張電子煙的圖片罰20萬，結果今天Google隨便查，有一堆官網，你們連下架能力都沒有，你們只敢打學生，我們衛福部的大砲只敢針對一個國中生，結果這一些人……"],["賈副署長淑麗：委員，不是這樣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我都不知道這些人的背景到底有多硬、利益有多大……"],["賈副署長淑麗：沒有，我們其實……"],["洪委員孟楷：不然為什麼他們可以持續在這邊，留在這邊一天，就是對我們中華民國政府的諷刺多一天，也就是嘲笑我們官員怠惰跟無能多一天，不覺得嗎？"],["賈副署長淑麗：我們其實有跟所有的網路公司、網路平臺進行積極的開會……"],["洪委員孟楷：那是誰的問題？它還可以留著，然後可以持續……這是誰的問題？"],["賈副署長淑麗：這裡面其實需要看的是境內、境外，我們的努力讓只要是「.tw」的境內網站全部都封網；境外網站我們需要……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，法務部，還有今天數發部是不是也有來？我再請教，大家真的覺得這已經是麻木不仁，氾濫程度到那麼嚴重，我們就講半年前性私密影像剛出來的時候，全國大家都在關心，有個論壇可以散發未成年少年的照片，媒體群起激憤報導，可能會傷到民進黨政府的民調，不到一天，數發部、衛福部、教育部等相關部會，從你推我、我推你，到可以讓那個官網沒有辦法連結了。現在電子煙的問題是不夠嚴重，沒有人員傷亡，還是因為它不夠有名，還是它已經是氾濫到你管都不能管的程度，所以你讓它持續的在這邊？我就說了，剛剛副署長也承認了，兩個禮拜前我在衛環委員會，部長也知道，很多委員也關心，我今天開第一砲，我把它直接點出來，是因為我真的覺得這樣的氾濫程度，背後到底有多大的利益，利益大到五個部會在這邊沒有一個人敢動他們，沒有人敢動耶！我都還沒有追查財政部到底它的貨從哪裡來？很多人講說Made in China，海關偷渡來的，貨艙一個禮拜來一次。但是今天五個部會站在這邊，結果放任這樣的狀況，沒有辦法處理、沒有辦法負責、沒有辦法下架、沒有辦法遮蔽，持續可以點。","最後，部長，主席站起來了，我其實真的整理很多質詢想要跟你討論，這個問題非常嚴重，我只是想請教，你今天自己講的，第4頁跨部會合作共同防制，什麼時候召開會議來討論，要把這樣的問題給解決？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上卓院長在下個禮拜一也會有一個治安的會報……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以要推給卓院長？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們在那邊也都會……"],["主席：部長，你針對問題好不好？回答一下什麼時候就好。"],["洪委員孟楷：你要推給卓院長？"],["鄭部長英耀：不是，我的意思是說我們本來內部就有一些，然後劉部長也提到我們怎麼樣共同來建置，像警務現在有這樣的app，它就可以用來防制校園的霸凌或者菸害防制的通報……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你到底知不知道我現在問題是什麼？我跟你談Google隨便都搜尋得到，你跟我講警務app？真的很麻木耶！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，跟委員報告，我們真的有在努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子真的很麻木，如果我們連最基本的源頭管理都沒有防制的話，那我們怎麼樣能夠阻止電子煙進入到校園？"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是容我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：連校園老師的責任都沒有辦法由部長來幫他們分擔、部長來幫他們負責。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來跨部會，我們來邀請像今天的部會來研擬，然後會後再來跟委員報告。"],["主席：洪委員，因為時間已經超過很多了，會後請部長再跟洪委員仔細報告一下，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們一定會來邀集今天報告的這些相關官員，確實從源頭，包括數位……"],["主席：部長，時間到了，如果你要繼續講，我就給洪委員再一次10分鐘。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝，主席抱歉。"],["主席：你OK了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：OK。"],["主席：我想這樣好不好？我們今天也是要打開耳朵去聽一下委員質詢在講什麼，如果一直搶著話講，我們沒有辦法去解決問題，所以請各部會官員稍微注意一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：我最後一句話，在臺灣非法的東西比合法的東西好買，這是官員的怠惰跟不作為，是我們國家最大的問題跟悲哀。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來有請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":74,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-7","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","張雅琳","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","郭昱晴","羅智強","李坤城","沈伯洋","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","羅廷瑋","林月琴","范雲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","林倩綺","吳春城"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部、法務部、數位發展部、內政部警政署、財政部關務署列席\n就「電子煙入侵校園危害青少年防制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139601_00001"}}},{"id":"156568","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156568","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41b35824aa7ef054a8ab22a898c85c14be9b0bd4ecc214d5703e17d4a2046a8db70c920121590e455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:21:50 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War我不會來開啟戰爭我要來Stop我要來終止戰爭大概提到這一塊所以就外交部目前看起來川普對台有沒有什麼政策是值得我們要注意的如常的沒有問題的我們都知道大概大方向都不變有沒有需要注意的部分"},{"start":295.882,"end":314.349,"text":"我想他當然是以就是剛講內政為主在經濟跟移民問題上那其實在地緣政治上他也有一些主張所以這方面會對我們的影響以及如何因應我們也是都有所準備"},{"start":315.049,"end":318.253,"text":"當時川普在第一任總統任內有關印太戰略架構在2018年提早解密還透過澳洲的媒體解密那個架構把第一島鏈"},{"start":335.185,"end":362.357,"text":"第二島鏈第一島鏈要嚇阻中國對第一島鏈的威脅第二島鏈要成為完全能夠採摘就美國跟盟友要能夠完全控制第二島鏈他那個印太戰略架構是他上一次要連任之前揭露出來的東西這個會不會延續對我們影響很重要第二個他在國際經貿他甚至於他上次TPP就要退出的"},{"start":363.237,"end":372.411,"text":"所以對於這種多邊的經貿組織他才採取什麼態度他的人事跟政策會影響到他對於區域安全是讓你自己負責還是會積極介入"},{"start":377.134,"end":402.579,"text":"讓你自己負責是你要什麼我給你這個都會影響這個我建議要多研究因為這個還在演變成說未來我也許跟林玉清召委我們還會等他們人事佈局更穩定一點我們甚至於要到華府一趟或者我們可能這個台美國會聯誼會因為我們很多這個台灣Caucus的成員都連任其實國會是很重要的不分民主共和有台的"},{"start":404.26,"end":423.337,"text":"臺灣連線的國會議員連任率很高目前還是國會最大的力量這個是我們要掌握住的我跟委員回應一下確實如你所言其實美台關係的架構主要是在川普他在第一任總統任內其實設定包括印太戰略包括對台軍售的常態化"},{"start":424.217,"end":440.253,"text":"包括呢EPPD就是這個所謂1加1等於3就是經濟繁榮夥伴對話架構以及呢高層的互訪層次很高到次卿的層次到臺灣衛生部長另外一期我覺得一個非常重要的是"},{"start":441.454,"end":459.397,"text":"就是說對台灣來講我想這些架構性的東西我們應該是會做基礎他有沒有用一些人事或政策去推翻自己上一任的架構我剛剛提醒是這件事情他如果推翻上一任的架構我們就要"},{"start":461.263,"end":489.949,"text":"用什麼字呢?Be cautious我們要小心你懂意思嗎?因為這一任的川普跟下一任的川普我們不能假設是一樣的那我接下來要請教的就是你剛才提到歐布萊恩歐布萊恩他有去轉發並且加了一些文字去我們賴清德總統對川普的賀文在X上面那X的老闆X的老闆馬斯克也是川普他昨天也花了好長時間在俄羅馬斯克所以"},{"start":491.049,"end":513.496,"text":"這個文他有轉發那一般有人預計說歐布萊恩可能是國安顧問或者國務卿我們不要去預測因為預測搞不好害了他本來有會變沒有所以我的意思是說除了歐布萊恩以外我們目前外交部或我們的國安高層有沒有跟川普總統重要的幕僚直接的接觸有或沒有"},{"start":515.179,"end":515.94,"text":"接觸的成績是誰?"},{"start":540.609,"end":562.527,"text":"有提到賴清德總統當然在X上面這是一個非正式的恭賀我相信外交體系應該有把正式的賀文透過駐美代表處轉給對已經這個致函已經我提醒我們對美經營是所以對於拜登總統在過去四年對台灣的協助我們要百發感謝"},{"start":564.161,"end":593.031,"text":"我們對於川普總統的即將就任表示恭賀那上一次川普總統就任沒多久跟小英總統有直接通上電話有經過一些穿梭聯繫那目前我們外交部也好國安高層也好跟賴清德總統這一邊有沒有跟川普的幕僚直接通上話然後未來有沒有直接見到面或聯絡的安排或努力有還是沒有"},{"start":593.971,"end":612.789,"text":"我們有聯繫的管道,但是並沒有就像如說電話這方面有任何的討論我再把問題講一遍,你跟他重要的幕僚要有直接的溝通管道,這個很重要"},{"start":613.63,"end":628.298,"text":"然後這溝通管道我們有一些努力要達成的目標但是如果能夠促成兩位元首見面當好事但困難度很高嘛那雙方能不能不管是願意公開的通商化或者是"},{"start":629.138,"end":629.258,"text":"那未來會不會嘗試?"},{"start":650.798,"end":652.659,"text":"我最後一分鐘提醒外交部,外交是整體的國力,經濟是外交,國防是外交"},{"start":668.81,"end":684.026,"text":"這個是部長你提過的所以當川普選擇內閣就任他看到亞洲看到印太他不喜歡說亞太他喜歡說印太對他看到印太的時候看到中國問題的時候他一定要思考台灣的角色這跟安全跟國防有關"},{"start":684.787,"end":705.78,"text":"他看到國內就業機會的時候避免雙重割稅這個我們跟美國遊說很久美國民主共和兩黨都承諾選後要來處理這個避免雙重割稅可以讓我們的企業從墨西哥北部的邊境往北移到美國境內創造就業機會而這個對話過程如果讓民間去努力外交部跟我們政府角色就不見了"},{"start":706.821,"end":721.729,"text":"政府要有角色去統合我們經濟的力量不管是集體電路公司或者是傳統製造公司當美國要MEGA要把工作帶回美國的時候他要跟盟友來溝通這個時候"},{"start":723.37,"end":723.39,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":75,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時21分）謝謝召委。麻煩林佳龍部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：今天有相當多的事情要請教外交部，首先在11月份左右，我們有四個重要朋友要選舉，這四個選舉其實蠻有代表性的，剛好代表我們外交很重要的四個樣態，第一個是在美國，它是我們重要的外交盟友，總統大選昨天完成了，川普再度進到白宮，並且在參眾兩院全部都過半，可以說是完全執政。另外一個是我們的鄰國，重要的地緣政治的鄰國，也是我們經貿安全重要的隔壁鄰居──日本。日本大選完了，在11月11號連續四天要進行內閣總理大臣的推舉，而且他們目前沒有一個政黨過半，必須採取多黨聯盟或者少數政府。另外一個是我們的正式邦交國，這個是在南太，我們剛才有美洲、有印太，這個是在南太平洋的帛琉總統大選，11月5號完成，11月12號計票結束，公布結果。另外一個是在中歐、北歐，可以說是對我們非常重要，這幾年在歐洲外交關係有突破的，你可以叫它灘頭堡，你也可以跟它成為重要的朋友，也是一個新型態的模式，以臺灣代表處開啟了在歐洲進駐的一個方式。有關立陶宛大選，其實立陶宛的執政黨很少連任，立陶宛大選每一次都會輪，這一次是反對黨成為國會最大黨，即將接任總理的帕魯克斯有針對跟臺灣的關係做出一些講法，大概這四個。","我們先從美國總統大選川普再度回到白宮、國會過半完全執政，對於我們外交部來講，因應一個格局，我們雖然不押寶，民主、共和都是我們的好朋友，但是我相信每一種可能性、每一種scenario，我們都要做好準備。外交部有沒有預判川普可能的重要人事布局？特別是在國務卿、國安層級以及貿易談判代表這三個會影響到臺灣的安全、國防，以及我們的經貿談判，你們目前研判怎麼樣？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們自從兩黨總統候選人在初選期間提名的時候就已經有整理他們這些重要人事布局可能的名單。"],["王委員定宇：你預估，我們當然不能講誰是誰的位置，因為川普自己都還沒定，有哪些名字浮在我們的預判裡面？"],["林部長佳龍：其實在川普第一任總統任內，有一些可能會回任，也有一些新的參與他這一次的MAGA，就是相關的政見擬定的人，這些我們都有根據他們可能……"],["王委員定宇：給我一個名字，舉個例子……"],["林部長佳龍：總統貼文恭賀川普總統跟范斯副總統的同時，O'Brien就馬上幫忙回應推文，這也是其中一個例子。"],["王委員定宇：談判代表，其實我提醒要注意一下，不管做TIFA或者未來我們兩邊的BTA，現在叫做21世紀貿易倡議，談判代表其實很重要。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為它現在是一個強勢政權，國會過半，總統普選票也贏，代表票也贏，所以川普的政策其實就有去執行的壓力，包含關稅100%、200%這件事情，我覺得對中國來講，關稅可能是一件大事情，就是經貿關稅、區域安全，他在昨天長達四十幾分鐘等於勝選演說裡面，其實對外關係講的不多，他大概只提到一次說我們擁有比中國更多的東西，我不是來start war，我不會來開啟戰爭，我要來stop，我要來終止戰爭，大概提到這一塊，所以就外交部目前看起來，川普對臺有沒有什麼政策是值得我們注意的？如常的、沒有問題的我們都知道，大概大方向不變，有沒有需要注意的部分？"],["林部長佳龍：我想他當然是以剛剛講的內政為主，在經濟跟移民問題上；其他在地緣政治上，他也有一些主張，所以這方面對我們的影響以及如何因應，我們也都有所準備。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我知道現在剛開始，因為他們人事還沒有定案，有些東西不能講得太具體。所以我要提醒的就是，當時川普在第一任總統任內，有關印太戰略架構在2018年提早解密，還透過澳洲的媒體解密，那一個架構把第一島鏈、第二島鏈……第一島鏈部分要嚇阻中國對第一島鏈的威脅，第二島鏈要成為完全能夠宰制……就是美國跟盟友要能夠完全控制第二島鏈，那個印太戰略架構是他上一次要連任之前揭露出來的東西，這個會不會延續對我們的影響很重要。","第二個，在國際經貿方面，上次TPP就是他退出的，所以他對於這種多邊的經貿組織採取什麼態度？他的人事跟政策會影響到；他對於區域安全是讓你自己負責還是會積極介入？對於讓你自己負責，是你要什麼我給你？這個都會影響，這部分我建議要多研究。","最後有關美國，因為這還在演變當中，未來我也許跟林憶君召委還會……等他們人事布局更穩定一點，我們甚至於要到華府一趟，或者我們臺美國會聯誼會……因為很多Taiwan Caucus的成員都連任，其實國會是很重要的，不分民主、共和，友臺的臺灣連線國會議員連任率很高，目前還是國會最大的力量，這個是我們要掌握住的，所以……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員回應一下，確實如你所言，其實美臺關係的架構主要是川普在第一任總統任內設定，包括印太戰略、包括對臺軍售的常態化、包括EPPD──就是所謂一加一等於三、經濟繁榮夥伴對話架構，以及高層的互訪，層次很高，以次卿的層次到臺灣，還有衛生部長。另外，我覺得一個非常重要的是，對臺灣來講，我想這些架構性的東西我們應該是會做基礎……"],["王委員定宇：我再提醒就是，他有沒有用一些人事或政策去推翻自己上一任的架構？我剛才要提醒的是這件事情，他如果推翻上一次架構，我們就要……用什麼字呢？be cautious，我們要小心。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：你懂我意思嗎？因為我們不能假設這一任的川普跟上一任的川普是一樣的。","我接下來要請教的就是，你剛才提到O'Brien，O'Brien在X上面有轉發賴清德總統對川普的賀文並且加了一些文字，那X的老闆馬斯克也是川普……他昨天也花了好長時間在稱讚馬斯克，關於這個文他有轉發，有人預計O'Brien可能是國安顧問或者國務卿，我們不要去預測，因為預測搞不好害了他，本來有會變沒有。所以我的意思是說，除了O'Brien以外，目前我們的外交部或國安高層有沒有跟川普總統重要的幕僚直接接觸，有或沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：都有。"],["王委員定宇：有？"],["林部長佳龍：對，長期的，不管是彼此對一些政策交換意見……"],["王委員定宇：這個我不公開要求，你們接觸的名單讓我們知道一下，那等他公布內閣名單，我就可以對起來，看你們是神算、妙算還是失算？"],["林部長佳龍：我們北美司長都有很完整的整理。"],["王委員定宇：接觸的層級是誰？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：最後，賴清德總統在X上面當然是一個非正式的恭賀，我相信外交體系應該有把正式的賀文透過駐美代表處轉給……"],["林部長佳龍：對，已經致函祝賀。"],["王委員定宇：我提醒我們對美經營是bipartisan，所以對於拜登總統在過去四年對臺灣的協助，我們要表達感謝；我們對於川普總統的即將就任表示恭賀。而上一次川普總統就任沒多久跟小英總統有直接通上電話、有經過一些穿梭聯繫，目前我們外交部也好、國安高層也好，賴清德總統這一邊有沒有跟川普的幕僚直接通上話？未來有沒有直接見到面或聯絡的安排及努力，有還是沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有聯繫的管道，但是並沒有像你說的就電話這方面有任何的討論。"],["王委員定宇：我再把剛才的問題講一遍，你跟他重要的幕僚要有直接的溝通管道，這個很重要，然後關於溝通管道，我們有些努力要達成的目標，如果能夠促成兩位元首見面當好事，但困難度很高嘛，那雙方能不能……不管是願意公開的通上話或者是不願意公開的通上話，這個其實也很重要！我問的是，外交部有沒有把這個列為努力的方向？"],["林部長佳龍：並沒有，因為有一家媒體有錯誤的報導，關於說是不是有在聯繫通電的事情，我可以很明確跟你講，我們目前並沒有這樣的聯繫。"],["王委員定宇：那未來會不會嘗試？"],["林部長佳龍：我想除了他的選舉結果都抵定，這個人事的布局……我想這個溝通管道是有的。"],["王委員定宇：我最後一分鐘提醒外交部，外交是整體的國力，經濟是外交、國防是外交，這個是部長你提過的，所以當川普選擇內閣就任，他看到亞洲、看到印太，他不喜歡說亞太、他喜歡說印太。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：他看到印太的時候、看到中國問題的時候，他一定要思考臺灣的角色，這跟安全、跟國防有關；他看到國內就業機會的時候，關於避免雙重課稅，這個我們跟美國遊說很久，美國民主、共和兩黨都承諾選後要來處理這個，避免雙重課稅可以讓我們的企業從墨西哥北部邊境往北移到美國境內，創造就業機會，而這個對話過程，如果讓民間去努力，外交部跟我們政府角色就不見了，政府要有角色去統合我們經濟的力量，不管是積體電路公司或者是傳統製造公司，當美國要MAGA、要把工作帶回美國的時候，他要跟盟友來溝通，這個時候溝通的管道就有溝通的議題，對臺美來講會有實質的部分。","基本上，我們當然恭喜川普當選總統，他當選之後我覺得最頭痛的應該是中國，但臺灣還是要小心地跟新的行政團隊磨合，這牽涉到我們的國家利益，希望我們下一次再有這樣專報的時候能夠更具體，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：另外三個選舉的相關細節我們再來溝通，好，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇召委，林部長請回。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-11","speakers":["林憶君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","羅美玲","沈伯洋","洪申翰","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","賴士葆","李坤城","牛煦庭","羅智強","葉元之","陳永康"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-11-07"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、大陸委員會報告「美國總統大選後，對於美中台三邊關係及未來國際局勢發展\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1139501_00018"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}