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及討論事項和並詢答委員羅志強、臺灣民眾黨黨團代表委員賴玉珍、委員賴世寶、說明提案要旨。中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇報告,"},{"start":2022.518,"end":2041.753,"text":"委員蘇巧慧等17人提出質詢。由中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇暨相關人員答覆說明。決定,依登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束。委員高清素梅翁小林所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答覆部分其相關機關一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":2043.714,"end":2067.846,"text":"討論事項一、審查委員賴世保等19人擬拒公民投票法第30條條文修正草案二、審查委員吳秉瑞等21人擬拒公民投票法部分條文修正草案三、審查委員羅志強等18人擬拒公民投票法第23條條文修正草案四、審查臺灣民眾黨黨團擬拒公民投票法第21條及第43條條文修正草案決議以上個案本次會議僅辦理詢答及宣讀條文"},{"start":2068.906,"end":2087.35,"text":"四、二場公聽會召開,輪值順序為下週由張召集委員紅錄,下下週由徐召集委員新迎,各辦一場公聽會後,均另定期繼續審查。宣讀完畢好,請問各位同仁,上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?沒有好,議事錄確定那繼續進行報告事項和討論事項,請宣讀"},{"start":2090.834,"end":2113.897,"text":"報告四項：邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。討論事項一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金、原住民族綜合發展基金。"},{"start":2114.477,"end":2129.923,"text":"三、審查原住民族委員會含重財團法人、原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人、原住民族語言研究發展基金會114年度預算書案。四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會單位預算。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2134.474,"end":2150.825,"text":"本日議程所列報告事項和討論事項我們合併詢答我們首先介紹在場委員及列席官員我們現在在場的有王美惠委員黃婕委員李柏毅委員"},{"start":2159.465,"end":2185.263,"text":"好,那我們是原住民族委員會我們的主委曾志勇採訪法人原住民族文化事業基金會的董事長馬拉歐斯採訪法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長馬耀古木"},{"start":2189.984,"end":2199.941,"text":"不當黨產處理委員會主任委員林鋒正行政院主計總署公務預算處專門委員張嘉瑜"},{"start":2205.708,"end":2214.222,"text":"好,那我們現在進行報告我們請原住民族委員會曾志勇主任委員報告請業務報告與預算案一併進行我們時間5分鐘"},{"start":2233.171,"end":2250.826,"text":"大家早安首先要謝謝立法院長期以來對原民會業務的支持以下針對本會今年5月20日起的各項政策的推動以及114年度預算的編列則要進行報告第一"},{"start":2251.426,"end":2278.598,"text":"制定法案保障平埔族群的權益。憲法法庭111年宪判制第17號判決保障平埔族的身份權本會辦理了9場次的意見徵詢會議並且已經將法律草案函報行政院來審查將配合行政院的審查的期程通過行政院議會後我們會函送大宴審議敬請各位委員支持。第二"},{"start":2280.663,"end":2287.685,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":2308.467,"end":2332.365,"text":"此外十頁山頭爾颱風清洗、原住民族的聯絡道路還有部落內的公共設施災後復建我們提報23件經費共一億兩千多萬目前也正在辦理現勘審查中。第三、原家中心納入社會安全網配合行政院強化社會安全網第二期計畫"},{"start":2334.056,"end":2358.608,"text":"本會將原住民族家庭服務中心納入政府整體的社會安全網以進一步強化對原住民族脆弱的家庭的支持跟服務。四、我們繼續地推動族語的保存還有教育文化知識體系原住民族語言發展持續突破包括族語的AI翻譯還有語音辨識技術"},{"start":2360.109,"end":2384.682,"text":"等創新的應用並持續推動族語的托育還有沉浸式族語的幼兒園以及獎勵族語教會我們前面營造族語生態的環境同時本會也建構原住民族教育文化知識體系作為雙軌制的教育教材未來將進一步應用於全民研教中。五、"},{"start":2385.578,"end":2393.269,"text":"保障土地的權益、落實土地正義本會跟內政部共同訂定原住民族土地使用規則"},{"start":2395.198,"end":2422.158,"text":"來解決部落的違建還有傳統祭典設施合法化等長期的問題。草案條文已有初步的共識本會將配合內政部的立法規劃期程以確保如期完成這個法規的公告本會另外針對原住民保留地正在擬定草案將開花管理辦法提升至法例的位階進一步落實土地的正義。第六"},{"start":2425.117,"end":2446.882,"text":"一百一十四年度預算編列的概況本會跟所屬一百一十四年度單位的預算稅入預算編列六千六百一十二萬兩千包括本會三千七百零四萬元以及文化發展中心兩千九百零八萬兩千元以一百一十三年度同"},{"start":2447.662,"end":2450.088,"text":"本會即所屬114年度稅出預算編列123億8325萬7千元"},{"start":2457.83,"end":2482.78,"text":"包括本會的一百二十二億六千七百零九萬七千元文化發展中心一億一千六百一十六萬元比一百一十三年度稅出的預算編列增加了十三億一千八百四十一萬六千元大概增加百分之十一點九二本會主管的原住民族綜合發展基金一百一十四年度"},{"start":2484.521,"end":2490.345,"text":"編列總收入36億2,568萬、總支出38億4,669萬4千元、總收支相抵後預計短處數2億2,101萬1千元以113年度來比較,減少短處2,062萬1千元。以上報告,敬請各位委員、理事、先生指教。謝謝大家。"},{"start":2517.163,"end":2528.934,"text":"我們請不當黨產處理委員會林峰正主任委員報告主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生大家早"},{"start":2530.256,"end":2557.262,"text":"今天應邀請來報告不當擋產處理委員會114年度施政計畫及稅出稅入預算案請先代表本會向各位委員表達感謝之意本會為了落實政黨間的公平競爭保障各政黨在平等的基礎上從事政治活動的權利以健全並深化我國的民主法治依據擋產條例進行政黨附屬組織及其受託管理人不當取得財產的調查、返還"},{"start":2559.142,"end":2582.865,"text":"追增及權力回覆等工作。本會114年度的單位預算是依據中央政府總預算編制作業相關規定還有業務計畫實際需要何時來編列。以下僅就113年度預算執行的情形還有114年度預算編列的重點及預期的績效請要來報告。敬請各位委員與指教。"},{"start":2584.764,"end":2605.272,"text":"首先113年度的預算執行情形稅入的部分本會113年度稅入預算是一萬元目前收入是一共八千元稅出的部分呢本會113年度稅出預算編列是五千零六十萬截至十月底止我們的執行率是84.72%"},{"start":2609.144,"end":2622.435,"text":"接下來要報告一下114年度預算編列的重點本會114年度稅務預算一樣編列1萬元主要是受理檔案閱覽、抄錄、複製等資料的使用費收入"},{"start":2623.979,"end":2626.32,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":2641.545,"end":2663.005,"text":"二、黨產處理業務編列1173萬3千元．主要是辦理政黨附屬組織及其受多管理人不當取得財產之調查業務．包括繼續處理財產申報跟界定．實施獎勵措施以獲取可供調查的資訊．進行調查處理不當取得的財產．辦理公開的聽證會．維護專屬網站並公布各項調查事件"},{"start":2667.849,"end":2675.373,"text":"辦理調查人員的專精訓練舉辦各類政黨政治與民主深化業務的研討會另外編列第一預備金40萬元"},{"start":2677.952,"end":2698.984,"text":"最後,有關於預期的施政績效有6點。1、界定政黨附屬組織及其受託管理人的財產範圍。2、實施獎勵措施鼓勵民眾舉發並提供資訊。3、辦理政黨附屬組織及其受託管理人等不當取得財產的處理工作,並執行相關法制程序。4、維護專屬網站對外公告調查事項。"},{"start":2701.966,"end":2723.203,"text":"第五、辦理調查人員的專精訓練第六、辦理各類政黨政治與民主深化之業務研討以上是本會114年度施政計畫的重點及預算編列的主要內容至於有關各項業務計畫詳細的比較前行請參閱所附的資料以上懇請各位委員予以支持。謝謝"},{"start":2728.178,"end":2755.322,"text":"其他單位報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報我們現在進行詢答委員諮詢前原例做幾點宣告一、本會及原住民委員發言時間6分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員發言時間5分鐘上午10時30分截止發言登記本次會議不處理臨時提案請問各位會同仁有沒有意見"},{"start":2756.664,"end":2779.256,"text":"好 那我們現在進行詢問請登記第一位的麥玉珍委員發言謝謝主席 有請主委好 請哪一個主委我們顏明慧好 請鄭主委委員好"},{"start":2786.963,"end":2813.908,"text":"主委好請教一下因為我們看到資料根據98年度的調查原住民族失業率雖然是有下降的趨勢但到了110年12月仍有超過一成原住民的勞工月薪不到兩萬元面對這樣的低薪困境主委有任何的準備怎麼資料才"},{"start":2815.888,"end":2820.29,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":2831.138,"end":2847.814,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教我想我們會結合我們其他部會來合作推動這個強化原住民族促進就業的方案第一期從111年到114年來配合各部會來把原住民的這個就業能夠弄得更好"},{"start":2849.659,"end":2854.605,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":2871.058,"end":2892.07,"text":"提升這個他們的專業技能還有就是說希望訓練他們之後取得更多的這個這個他的技能能夠更好就取得更多的證照然後我們來訓練他讓他在就業的時候會有更好的待遇所以像職業訓練班我們都在做"},{"start":2893.749,"end":2897.991,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":2907.439,"end":2912.92,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":2933.784,"end":2937.145,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2950.209,"end":2953.151,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":2970.68,"end":2973.501,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3000.967,"end":3005.869,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3022.375,"end":3025.698,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3043.977,"end":3045.298,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3063.866,"end":3065.489,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3076.892,"end":3091.296,"text":"家庭的經濟還有如何讓他們就是除了就是他們的就業以外他們的在保險啊或者是他們的租金或者是就業還有就面臨很多很多的這些問題我們要有沒有什麼的計劃有什麼脫貧的措施或者是讓他們學以致用真真的讓他們可以在創業或者就業才能自己幫助到自己"},{"start":3107.145,"end":3109.486,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3122.193,"end":3126.558,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3137.731,"end":3139.112,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3156.866,"end":3159.73,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3176.67,"end":3179.752,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3196.463,"end":3197.844,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3214.793,"end":3215.774,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3234.969,"end":3241.591,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3261.668,"end":3266.794,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3285.531,"end":3294.574,"text":"主委要給我一個完整的規劃還有資料好不好謝謝主委好我們請王美惠委員主委好請鄭主委"},{"start":3319.961,"end":3331.008,"text":"委員好主委老趙主委在這裡本事先幫你探討一些最近發生的問題因為你知道不是跟原住民一樣全台灣的少子化所以我們都勿忘我們的經理是誰可以生孩子結果在這幾個月當中尤其我們的原住民要去保證報告的時候"},{"start":3349.042,"end":3350.684,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3364.127,"end":3386.642,"text":"我知,在法院這件事,就是說你父母親有一方是原住民,他也可以登記原住民的名字,但是他也是用漢名在前面,後面是原住民的名字。你知不知,他去抱他孩子的父母的時候,受我們政府所謂的侮辱,你知不知這件事?我知,"},{"start":3390.825,"end":3391.765,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3410.371,"end":3414.918,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3425.707,"end":3452.116,"text":"委員報告,我們第一時間就跟那個負責事務所說你不可以這樣,你必須要先徵詢這是不是八位發生的?是是是那你怎麼處理?主委現在我們已經有一個命名的導演已經走出來就是說可以送我負責事務所這場課那花蓮那個負責事務所他做的不對我們也特別要他跟我們原住民的朋友要道歉啦"},{"start":3452.836,"end":3456.38,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3475.956,"end":3485.421,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3487.688,"end":3491.129,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3516.331,"end":3529.297,"text":"我跟委員報告喔,事實是副政事務所不是完全了解原住民的這個命要怎麼做啦為甚麼你們有這些有原住民的所在,你們應該也要去輔導、愛人到三天,沒到三天,又退後了,又說那種為人傷害"},{"start":3543.083,"end":3548.166,"text":"另外你聽起來,你會感覺到嗎?主委你審查大多數是這是大部分應該你知道嗎?我們有透過內政部跟主要是一些在北地的這個負責事務所比較不太清楚啦那如果在原住民的鄉負責事務所當然就比較清楚主委,我跟你說的地方的負責事務所大部分都有原住民跟住所是"},{"start":3572.995,"end":3575.658,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3594.036,"end":3596.598,"text":"要讓原住民可以開會、他可以生、可以命的地方,我們是尊重的,再來實施這個。要不然所作所為,覺得一種傷害不好,所以你們要加強,趕緊去處理每一間市的負債。"},{"start":3614.868,"end":3623.551,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會"},{"start":3642.198,"end":3650.863,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3656.752,"end":3662.797,"text":"委員,報告,你說那是專案的主委推動中心?對啦!還沒審,假期期也沒有,婚禮也沒有,像你這個每年有這個遺申,但是在當局這幾天,我說得不好的時候,你這個遺申出來,你臨位假期期,會誰來回答一下?"},{"start":3685.129,"end":3688.512,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3705.868,"end":3708.99,"text":"主委,在這我要來提供意見,你若是派請或是派助理的時候,是不是我們可以因此而下足,因為有空間可以自己好,空間去"},{"start":3724.144,"end":3730.665,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3746.329,"end":3761.84,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3775.117,"end":3779.342,"text":"主委,在這,我認為我們的功能就是,若不動産的財産、不宜的財産投回來,投回來給我們的政府。最主要的就是這個訴訟的問題。"},{"start":3792.518,"end":3807.487,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":3817.652,"end":3824.276,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3839.984,"end":3843.567,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":3856.195,"end":3882.595,"text":"主委,在本席跟你談到這個問題的時候,我是覺得說,有多少人你來的專業,一定對你的訴訟,一定有幫助的。我本席的意思不是說,你不可以委託多少人,不可以什麼,只是我們有公職的律師,我們要好好去用所有的單位,你們這個單位,最主要協助以上。"},{"start":3884.396,"end":3900.129,"text":"我再補充一下,因為我們這個單位沒有編制,我們沒有常任的編制,所以目前要營業就這樣。我知道你們就是沒有編制,因為公職律師是有編制的。對,我認為有需要你們去提議,因為說起來你們這個單位始終有辦法來討出不同的財產回來,以上。"},{"start":3916.73,"end":3939.739,"text":"我們請黃建斌委員。謝謝主席。我們有請葉明慧主委。好,請曾主委。委員好。主委好,一位加快。"},{"start":3942.014,"end":3966.529,"text":"所以我想你應該沒有想過有一天原委會會成為延宕總預算審查的一個主因我想最重要的原因還是因為對於立法三讀通過的建法補償每工錢6萬元而且經過總統公佈那中央既然沒有依法來編組我想這是漠視原住民的權益而且也因為執政黨的傲慢無視原住民無視於立法"},{"start":3967.597,"end":3989.98,"text":"三讀通過的法律因此國民黨必須站出來集體的捍衛原住民的權益也要捍衛立法院的尊嚴我想因為沒有人知道如果今天政府犧牲的是原住民你下一次要犧牲誰那對於本席來說臺東其實有很多很多原住民的鄉親本身也有很多原住民的親朋好友因此對於捍衛原住民的權益本席絕對不會退讓"},{"start":3991.786,"end":4012.484,"text":"那我想接下來的預算審查我相信原民會的預算一定會被仔細的來檢驗我印象大家很納悶的就是說既然民進黨那麼多的理由不願意編組金髮補償不願意維護原住民朋友該有的權益那到底我們是把錢花到哪裡去"},{"start":4014.514,"end":4042.79,"text":"以下本期就舉原住民、我們移民會、武漢編列預算的兩大現象跟主委來討論第一個就是我們媒體相關的費用的暴增依據我們立法院預算中心的報告我們原住民族委員會114年度原住民族教育推展之媒體政策及業務宣導預算相較於112年度的決算增加了大概是八成光是這一點我相信很多原住民朋友都難以接受"},{"start":4043.47,"end":4050.653,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4067.273,"end":4072.874,"text":"第二、水電費報徵三倍113年度原民會辦公大樓水電費111萬元疫情前108年原民會辦公大樓水電預算93萬元114年水電費358.7萬元報徵超過3倍除了你們的鄰居文化部114年的水電費只有比113年多14萬"},{"start":4097.435,"end":4121.348,"text":"原住民會的水電費硬是增加了248萬元行政院不是說各部會要減減碳嗎原住民會增加水電費實在讓人匪夷所思納稅人的錢不能這樣用所以我想其實也針對以上的兩點提交一份預算增加的報告到本席的辦公室也讓民眾知道我們原住民會到底是怎麼花錢究竟把錢花在什麼地方"},{"start":4122.469,"end":4131.52,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":4141.232,"end":4144.673,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4163.3,"end":4185.134,"text":"根據我們審計部的報告,原住民會1月到6月113年度的移居部落計劃執行率只有7乘5。這其中的一個問題是什麼?主委,你知道嗎?就是沒有人去標啦,沒有人去投標啦。原鄉的工程在執行上很困難的原因就是,即便規劃好了預算到位的時候,也不見得會有廠商去投標啦。"},{"start":4186.725,"end":4211.705,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年"},{"start":4218.874,"end":4245.155,"text":"那這兩個部分主委您有沒有什麼要補充的首先我要跟委員報告一開始所講的那個淨化補償我想這個要謝謝我們卓院長也謝謝韓院長全力來協助這個事情謝謝各位委員的幫忙跟協助讓原住民可以這樣起的這個淨化補償那我想我也呼籲主任要更愛護我們自己的土地更保護我們的土地"},{"start":4245.575,"end":4253.297,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4274.244,"end":4279.929,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":4300.185,"end":4312.86,"text":"那當然不能跟文化部跟那個還有客戶出來比主委你再事後再把資料送到本市辦公室我再用練練練練時間我想要請教一下我們那個不亂黨參委會林主委謝謝主委請林主委"},{"start":4318.616,"end":4322.778,"text":"主委根據黨產會114年的預算案黨產茶盒業務裡面編列了1173萬元相較於你去年度是編列1144萬增加了29萬2但是我們黨產茶盒業務在112年的執行率卻低於八成"},{"start":4337.125,"end":4362.59,"text":"截至113年8月底執行率未達到六成今年你的達成率沒有增加可是你今年預算要增加另外你114年的媒體政策及義務宣傳費也相較於上半年度增加約兩成還有114年的預算的出國計劃有四十二萬五千相較於上年度都是增加但仔細看我們考察計劃卻跟上年度的那種差不多"},{"start":4363.47,"end":4371.552,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":4388.176,"end":4395.521,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":4412.951,"end":4417.073,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4437.715,"end":4446.659,"text":"好謝謝主委主委還是在預算上在編列上謝謝更為仔細節省我們人民的那個納稅錢去他們公帑謝謝主委好謝謝謝謝主席好我們請黃介委員好謝謝主席我們請原民會主委好請正主委"},{"start":4473.806,"end":4484.659,"text":"委員好主委早 剛剛其實有委員提到說這個禁法補償是不是請你再明確說明一下其實在我們原本預算的編列裡就是打算編6萬對嗎"},{"start":4487.672,"end":4508.549,"text":"這個有關淨化補償因為歷年來都是預算跟我們的基金對列就是預算編一半我們的基金編一半然後來基金來運作所以歷年來都是這樣所以如果不用其他的經費我們一樣可以用我們的預算跟基金來來花放這個淨化補償"},{"start":4510.7,"end":4535.346,"text":"所以我覺得在這邊還是要再次澄清啦原本我們就是打算要編6萬是公務預算加上這個基金的部分總共加起來就是6萬所以沒有說前後有數字差異的問題而是要從哪一個裁員來撥用的問題是那我希望這個主委一定要再次的澄清我們是一直以來都是這樣子的立場並且非常的照顧原住民族這個立場絕對不會變的對嗎是"},{"start":4538.206,"end":4550.431,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":4561.596,"end":4562.216,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4580.168,"end":4583.17,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4600.519,"end":4623.765,"text":"那我就要來請教一下了因為其實從當初合定到現在看了一下你們113年度到8月底的預算質詢率只有5.91%那是不是可以先請教一下這個預算質詢率的部分是出了什麼問題會不會延宕到未來我們成立的進度因為我們預計是在2032年就要來啟用對嗎是"},{"start":4628.596,"end":4634,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4648.575,"end":4653.697,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4664.441,"end":4667.443,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4694.481,"end":4700.267,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4718.523,"end":4736.07,"text":"對 這個就是我希望主委真的有注意到這件事情因為這個就是我最擔心的你們沒有在事前包括未來的人力的安排因為其實這個調查報告裡面有講到說你們對於人力的安排等等都是不充足的那甚至是當初也沒有預想到未來需要增列這麼多預算是嗎"},{"start":4737.29,"end":4742.714,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4768.131,"end":4778.238,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4798.709,"end":4824.326,"text":"好林主委好因為最近大家有討論到說你們出國考察的這個費用是不是有一些問題那我在這邊還是希望我們當場會再次的明確說明因為這個去歐洲考察其實對我們來促進轉型正義非常非常的重要那包括其實有非歐洲非常多的國家都已經是非常成熟的一些運作那從威權轉型包括說有一些是直接威權的正體"},{"start":4826.187,"end":4829.23,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4847.37,"end":4852.033,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4876.307,"end":4878.11,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4892.307,"end":4896.449,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4921.621,"end":4926.385,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":4937.594,"end":4945.337,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":4964.565,"end":4967.469,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":4983.507,"end":4986.708,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5013.885,"end":5026.612,"text":"好 我們請劉旭廷委員好 謝謝主席 原民會主委有請好 請曾主委"},{"start":5033.171,"end":5049.945,"text":"委員好主委早安今天我們開始進入預算的審查的階段預算的答詢我們當然就就預算的事情來做一下討論第一個是原住民族委員傳播大樓的進度這個計畫的總經費是多少錢我就聽到下面這幫你打pass了17億啦17億啊17億對不對對對那目前執行的多少錢救援大隊來了"},{"start":5064.38,"end":5090.446,"text":"沒有關係,把話講清楚,本席非常同意的,沒有關係,不用擔心到今年執行了多少?大概5億5億?不止啦,8億3千萬,答案都在上面了,對不對?可是問題是什麼?一個17億的計畫,然後到現在為止只執行了8億你當然會講說這是一個分年編列的計畫,這本席是了解的但是問題是你的報告裡面也寫,你的預計的完工時間是114年的6月"},{"start":5092.819,"end":5114.841,"text":"換言之你按照現在這樣的一個狀況我們先不去追究為什麼前幾年執行率那麼差的問題我們要問的是114年的6月要完工是不是離現在差不多只剩7個多月你7個多月然後17億的計劃經費現在用了8億你要在接下來的7個月時間花掉8億元到9億元的預算有可能嗎是不是說明一下可是委員報告"},{"start":5116.179,"end":5137.693,"text":"我們原辦這個議員傳播大樓是不可能在今年就會能夠完工甚至以他的這個進度連明年我們都因為現在切工切料切的工程的施作非常非常的慢所以我們希望就是說我們預期是這樣但是我想應該是達不到"},{"start":5138.453,"end":5143.379,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":5158.917,"end":5163.16,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5177.645,"end":5183.852,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5194.684,"end":5201.467,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5222.406,"end":5245.664,"text":"剩下3億多啦。3億多?含室內嗎?裝修?沒有含室內裝修。所以你現在8億多,主體工人做完11億,你要花6億多做室內裝修?沒有沒有,那是設備。設備?跟攝影棚、燈光。我跟你講,既然現在的狀況顯然又跟你給預算中心的報告不一樣,那你就重新寫份報告吧。到底接下來的那個期程跟相關的開支是什麼?"},{"start":5246.184,"end":5252.866,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5265.211,"end":5269.495,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":5280.666,"end":5286.689,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5310.359,"end":5318.982,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5340.066,"end":5358.075,"text":"講一下文化基金會原住民文化基金會這個你們在這個原民會編列給捐助給原文會的項目嘛因為基金會你當然有預算從公務預算來做提撥嘛對不對那你捐助的項目裡面這個今年明年的預算跟今年比起來"},{"start":5359.176,"end":5383.732,"text":"你的這個促進原住民族文化傳播跟教育權利的經費啊這個明年的預算是3300多萬比起今年是增加了1426萬嘛對不對你既然編在促進原住民文化傳播跟教育權利裡面那是不是這一筆錢就應該要用來做文化傳播跟教育權利提升的相關業務是是嘛對啊你們有這樣編嗎"},{"start":5387.436,"end":5395.818,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":5414.723,"end":5416.904,"text":"節目業務的業務費6700變6700沒變製作工程的業務費3300變3300沒變文化行銷的業務4600變4500還變少一點點更可怕的是廣播業務人事費增加2000萬業務費減少1000多萬"},{"start":5429.332,"end":5432.875,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5449.215,"end":5452.938,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":5479.295,"end":5493.959,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5509.241,"end":5511.524,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":5519.636,"end":5543.715,"text":"感謝委員對我們的人事費的需求的支持那一千多萬的費用大部分都是人事費用來增加廣播的人員的費用那整個過去委員會沒有加薪所以在這一次8%的加薪確實讓員工比較安心我已經說了我不會反對你調整人事費我也不會反對你加薪只要事情可以做好"},{"start":5544.255,"end":5570.762,"text":"但是你這邊講說業務支出要增加的時候相應來講你文化傳播基金會的業務沒有增加這是不對的事情嘛那你要我們怎麼處理這筆預算呢這不是很奇怪嗎我們在做改進在做改進我不知道啦反正我們預算審查的時候還可以在那個但是我不希望這種粉飾太平的事情再次發生該是什麼就是什麼哪一項名目寫哪一項名目把寫清楚把話講清楚就好了好不好這個請人民會要多加油啦謝謝謝謝牛曲廷委員"},{"start":5575.339,"end":5602.604,"text":"我們請張宏祿召委進行詢答謝謝我先請曾主委跟馬耀谷穆董事長來請曾主委跟董事長啊主委"},{"start":5605.387,"end":5629.022,"text":"這個剛剛有委員質詢有提到就是我們原住民族的姓氏常常在婦人事務所或什麼這個打不出來字或什麼很多原因造成我們這個姓氏的登記出了一些問題是不是是那有沒有想到有什麼辦法解決"},{"start":5631.069,"end":5633.931,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5655.627,"end":5673.474,"text":"我們原住民族語言研究發展基金會我們花了錢我們有做了原住民族語輸入法跟建制原住民族姓氏資料庫馬耀董事長是不是有這件事"},{"start":5674.645,"end":5702.464,"text":"跟委員說明是我們已經有研發完成研發完成對我再請教一下你說研發完成研究我們有處理這一塊對研發完成可以上線了沒有上線有提供在線上有做這種的服務來那鄭主委那有這一套系統我們有沒有去跟戶政事務所說我們有這套系統我們大家一起來看怎麼去使用"},{"start":5703.72,"end":5721.452,"text":"有,有,我們跟內政部都有一起來辦訓練什麼時候開始?從去年就已經開始在希望不是啊,什麼時候開始?然後有沒有跟復甄事務所大家說這套怎麼去使用?有沒有?"},{"start":5722.773,"end":5727.554,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5739.918,"end":5742.479,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5758.766,"end":5764.169,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5781.004,"end":5804.238,"text":"不是啊,我現在問曾主委,你們有沒有跟護證事務所開過會?你剛跟我說有啊有,跟護證人員的教育訓練有做過教育訓練那是,我說有沒有很正式的跟護證事務所,跟護證師齁這個還沒有還沒有嘛,對嘛,你剛跟我回答以後我嚇一跳啊,因為我手頭上的資料就還沒有啊,對不對"},{"start":5805.342,"end":5820.468,"text":"我要說的是你這套系統花了這麼多錢了應該要很正式的跟內政部我們有這套系統不然我互征是互索的同仁我怎麼知道我怎麼去使用我怎麼知道有這一套我覺得花了錢就要去用啊好不好"},{"start":5821.368,"end":5826.532,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5845.026,"end":5847.429,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":5863.983,"end":5884.835,"text":"這個我們這個國立的原住民族這一個博物館然後跟我們的文化發展中心這個我們跟地方的全國29個原住民的博物館我們未來有沒有什麼合作或什麼互相提升的計畫"},{"start":5886.544,"end":5891.808,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5915.526,"end":5943.218,"text":"我手頭上的你們自己的資料你們文化文化發展中心給地方的文化館一年補助11616萬一年補助這麼多那未來我們這個國立的博物館我們應該是要有一個架構一個最高然後地方的我們有那麼多不同的族群不同的族如何發展特色對不對我覺得"},{"start":5944.417,"end":5949.88,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5964.07,"end":5967.713,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":5975.609,"end":5981.152,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6002.745,"end":6008.311,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6024.858,"end":6032.4,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6047.185,"end":6052.347,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6068.835,"end":6089.753,"text":"曾主委您留下那個林主委你們也去歐洲也去什麼考察過很多啦但一樣的在台灣我們原住民他們從整個文化這樣過來他們其實也受了很多不公不義的事情啊有沒有因為本會主要是不當擔責不是啦我不是要問你了有沒有"},{"start":6090.533,"end":6092.574,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6112.702,"end":6116.663,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6145.939,"end":6173.847,"text":"我們請李博義委員謝謝請曾主委好請曾主委委員好主委在今天來到內政委員會以前其實你沒有正式的對於原住民進法補償條例正式的在內政委員會來做一個說明"},{"start":6176.121,"end":6197.672,"text":"我們是在6月5號立法院三讀通過原住民進罰補償條例每年進罰補償金由每公頃3萬元提高到6萬元主委你什麼時候上任5月20號16天內立法院通過這個條文也就是說"},{"start":6199.161,"end":6203.367,"text":"必須要增加現有的補償金25.99億、26億也就是說原本在114年稅出的概算的125億裡面有高達52億"},{"start":6214.929,"end":6229.597,"text":"必須要來做競發補償如果沒有做這個行政院沒有相關在這最近這一段時間做的預算調整裡面你的原民會的預算會有41.6%來做競發補償的發放是不是對"},{"start":6234.6,"end":6238.581,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6255.128,"end":6281.285,"text":"2032年要開源的這個原民會博物館有可能因為被排擠每年被排擠原本要蓋8年可能要蓋16年有沒有這個可能有可能包含原文會、原語會你說的原本今年度要好但是室內裝修還沒有好有沒有可能被排擠連明年都不會好也有可能也有可能因為預算的排擠是"},{"start":6282.691,"end":6302.932,"text":"那預算的排擠拿來做這個進法補償我相信民進黨政府跟原民會後來做的溝通的內容到底是怎樣?主委你有沒有跟院長爭取這6萬元一定要如期發放那院長的態度是怎樣?"},{"start":6304.349,"end":6309.832,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6320.519,"end":6324.222,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":6345.879,"end":6353.041,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6369.326,"end":6398.419,"text":"管園區的這些相關的預算包含現在原委會還在推動的很多包含保留原住民語言包含這個地方創生包含我很重視一個東西我覺得這個我們也會繼續追蹤就是強化偏鄉寬頻環境數位轉型3600多萬可以做到什麼程度這個我們也很關心讓偏鄉原民的小朋友跟都會一樣有網路可以使用"},{"start":6399.445,"end":6414.277,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6431.673,"end":6442.181,"text":"主委最近官司好像不太順利有幾件官司原因是什麼但是我們都上訴了原因是這樣子我們是不讓檔案處理條例我講一個案子我們講這個"},{"start":6446.923,"end":6474.652,"text":"大廈大樓我大概看了一下我們這個黨參委員會不當黨參委員會這邊齁這個是在民國72年的時候中國國民黨主席蔣經國主席去函給台北市國宅處說你這個賣給我本來要買兩個要買兩層那後來全部買那經過當時官派的台北市長同意是不是"},{"start":6475.353,"end":6481.939,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6498.453,"end":6500.475,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6518.997,"end":6542.297,"text":"我剛說我們是作為黨產條例的主管機關我們對於黨產追徵的範圍收的範圍我們有我們的解讀可是現在法院現在他卻表示出一個見解當然也有其他法官不同意見其中有一派的法官說一定要是當初買的時候買便宜的或者沒有買是用送的這種黨產才可以出現我現在就是要講給你聽"},{"start":6544.098,"end":6572.444,"text":"做國民黨主席來跟官派的臺北市長、臺北市的國債處來說要買這個價錢怎麼會合理他當時當然要計算的基礎因為那是40年前的事情我們現在要如何去還原到40年前說我說你這個要買便宜這個我們是不好說的因為我們沒有很明確的證據很難這樣子去說但是他現在法院卻保持這樣的見解他說你要去證明說他買便宜了"},{"start":6572.944,"end":6575.666,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":6597.279,"end":6618.029,"text":"其實我曾經跟高雄市政府那個時候應該是跟高雄市政府去過這個西班牙那西班牙也有一個轉型正義的一個遺址那其實我對於黨場不當黨場委員會出國考察的事情我是必須要在這裡表達支持"},{"start":6618.749,"end":6645.635,"text":"你沒有去到這些國家你沒有辦法想像這些國家歷經的過去的這些威權的時代面對所有的問題現在搞不好台灣還是非常落後那沒有讓我們的基層文官或者是我們當場委員會實際在處理的這些同仁們實際看到國外的這些狀況的話也很難放手去做所以在這邊表達支持以外"},{"start":6646.175,"end":6654.121,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6680.939,"end":6703.067,"text":"主席有請主委好請曾主委主委好委員好好久不見好久不見今天拿了你這個就是我們的內政委員會的這個報告我一看的時候非常高興是你是用盧凱宇那我想考你一下盧凱宇就是這個你會不會念"},{"start":6705.461,"end":6709.124,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6726.477,"end":6730.44,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6742.742,"end":6752.567,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6768.795,"end":6772.958,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6792.591,"end":6796.196,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6806.926,"end":6814.528,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6834.572,"end":6837.654,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6860.386,"end":6864.811,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6878.905,"end":6889.158,"text":"現在這個影片大概也超過好幾十萬人在看了"},{"start":6897.208,"end":6899.949,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6924.662,"end":6928.244,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6954.782,"end":6963.056,"text":"我們就講到長照好了長照我最近收到一個公文就是衛福部因為曾經我有提案過說希望在原住民地區佈建住宿式的長照機構"},{"start":6966.305,"end":6969.808,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":6988.425,"end":6993.689,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7018.61,"end":7032.962,"text":"根委員報告在這個會議當中大概會有幾個結論因為他現在就是說住宿型機構他大概要有一個小時路程就還是要一個小時以那個醫院的路程為主但是在那會議當中有特別奠定有一個"},{"start":7033.602,"end":7037.783,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7062.13,"end":7064.692,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7091.89,"end":7093.051,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7107.691,"end":7111.773,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7129.724,"end":7133.007,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7152.625,"end":7159.688,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7187.386,"end":7200.448,"text":"好,我們請高金素美委員好,請主委好,請曾主委"},{"start":7201.943,"end":7226.633,"text":"在主委回答之前呢高金素美本席代表召委我上一次的召委在這裡要謝謝內政委員會包括啟祿召委你們都非常支持進法補償雖然到了最後呢我們的卓榮泰院長有一點意見但是也終於在七七四十九天也完成了我們立法院交付的三讀的任務"},{"start":7227.441,"end":7231.062,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7254.634,"end":7258.136,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":7270.785,"end":7292.354,"text":"禁法補償將以追加預算的方式辦理這是最適宜的解決方法對不對?所謂的追加預算就是不管是114年度或是115年度或是以後全部都在公務預算裡面編一公頃六萬塊你要不要謝謝大家"},{"start":7292.814,"end":7314.307,"text":"當然這個要謝謝我們所有原住民的立委還有平地的立委也謝謝委員一直以來對這個事情的關心那麼後來這個事情是要謝謝卓院長更要謝謝韓院長三檔來做一個最後做一個協商那做成這樣大家都能夠"},{"start":7315.327,"end":7319.41,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7339.143,"end":7358.963,"text":"雖然我們的要求很簡單就是要求行政院依法行政所以他也提懂了為什麼立法委員要堅守我們的立場因為是在立法院三讀通過的法律案這當中有非常多的辯論就不用在今天提了因為今天呢我們是要來看你們的預算"},{"start":7359.904,"end":7364.668,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7383.081,"end":7385.622,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7403.109,"end":7406.973,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7427.071,"end":7442.717,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7456.584,"end":7457.464,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7476.311,"end":7477.893,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7493.82,"end":7498.183,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7510.322,"end":7513.044,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7532.301,"end":7536.424,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7552.637,"end":7556.499,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7583.86,"end":7590.044,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7604.935,"end":7606.357,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7623.593,"end":7637.739,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7652.036,"end":7674.37,"text":"主委你看到了沒有這就是你要領導的你的團隊啊再來看一下44頁傳統領域的調查從陳水扁時代96年就開始了也是本席我在這個地方到現在已經多少年了23年了我們每年要花800萬辦理傳統領域調查工作做完了沒有"},{"start":7676.304,"end":7680.768,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7700.138,"end":7703.619,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7724.406,"end":7728.989,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":7750.728,"end":7764.335,"text":"你們看到我剛剛怎麼樣來質詢主委了吧我剛剛聽到好多的委員在這邊講你們好像是個體戶耶 各做各的耶你們的預算是來自於原民會編給你們兩位基金會是不是如此與法會做了很多事情是不是"},{"start":7769.028,"end":7790.144,"text":"你們的名字也已經建構在網路上面了為什麼沒有跟原民會講好?原民會為什麼沒有跟內政部講好?新民條例終於在立法院三讀通過了早就告訴你們要銜接好跟內政部銜接好為什麼還會發生我們的族人到地方去了以後被人家羞辱一番?你們覺得你們在幹什麼?"},{"start":7794.523,"end":7802.889,"text":"主委你們是不是應該跟族人道歉該給你們的預算給你們了該要求你們做的政策做了為什麼還是如此你們是不是要檢討你們的預算我們真的要讓你通過嗎"},{"start":7810.094,"end":7813.236,"text":"所以今天不是不讓你們通過我僅僅的要求你們比照農業不一樣一筆一筆的細算告訴我們你們要做什麼什麼時候達到預期的目標是什麼這次為什麼不是你們做然後做不好的原因在哪裡你們這樣子才能夠滾動式的檢討嘛不是每一年來這邊你們給我們的預算書都是一模一樣我看了23年啦"},{"start":7836.614,"end":7848.122,"text":"記住我今年會好好的審你們的預算看你們的制度跟預算還有立法委員在這邊努力要求你們做的通過的一些法案你們有沒有真正銜接好因為今天時間真的有限這個原基會還有羽發會你們兩個要努力"},{"start":7855.467,"end":7858.929,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7877.168,"end":7885.113,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":7906.167,"end":7920.897,"text":"到時候讓全國的族人、全國的老百姓看清楚我們的納稅錢你們有沒有花在刀口上不要以為今年就很好過你們今年會非常的不好過因為我把我全力的精神會放在原民會的預算上面好嗎?謝謝丁薛忠、丁薛忠、丁薛忠委員不在我們請徐欣盈委員"},{"start":7942.14,"end":7945.545,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席請曾主委好 請曾主委"},{"start":7951.513,"end":7977.624,"text":"主委好主委好主委首先想就我們原住民族工作權的部分來跟您就教您應該了解原住民族工作權保障法12條規定是不是沒有使用就是政府採購法的廠商沒有使用一定人數的原住民要繳納代金是不是是是嗎那根據大法官釋字第810號"},{"start":7979.745,"end":7998.476,"text":"計算所因繳納的貸金金額超過採購金額可能造成個案過於嚴苛的情況。有關的機關應該自持於本解釋公佈之日起兩年內,也就是112年10月27日依本解釋意旨修正。"},{"start":8000.038,"end":8005.003,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8018.919,"end":8023.321,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8039.42,"end":8042.202,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8058.703,"end":8085.963,"text":"已經送到行政院了?好,儘快好不好,行政院通過進來,儘快送到立法院那再來就是臺北市促進原住民族就業自治條例法規在111年修正那為什麼到113年才突然說違憲?已經實施兩年的法案突然說違憲請問我們地方如何能夠安心?"},{"start":8087.602,"end":8095.41,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8105.06,"end":8114.986,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8120.709,"end":8142.987,"text":"立法的目的是應該為了保障族人的生計所以保留了原住民傳統領域土地是不是是是嘛那請問沒有原住民身份的人可以買原住民的土地嗎不能不能嘛既然您知道不能的話有沒有聽說這個不是原住民但是借原住民的名義來土地登記"},{"start":8144.042,"end":8151.065,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8174.634,"end":8184.26,"text":"四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分"},{"start":8200.384,"end":8208.27,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8230.696,"end":8254.097,"text":"跟委員報告,其實這個是有關於委員講說這個是有人頭的問題當然我們知道,但是實際上現在還是在原住民的民意登記的所有權還是原住民只是他是走一個脫法的行為在做這個處理,我們也知道那我們的管理條例也在立法要未來要阻止這個事情的發生"},{"start":8254.497,"end":8257.279,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":8284.757,"end":8290.825,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8303.15,"end":8309.576,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8330.031,"end":8334.113,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8350.427,"end":8353.068,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8369.548,"end":8373.15,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8387.148,"end":8393.492,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8411.044,"end":8413.225,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8433.223,"end":8433.963,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8453.204,"end":8470.216,"text":"包委員這353主要是補助地方政府推動建構住宅的業務費因為他需要一些業務費來推動那KBI1000的確我們寫比較保守事實上比這個多啦那事實上多少事實上多少我們會後統計完再提供委員絕對比這個高很多"},{"start":8471.4,"end":8485.633,"text":"還有會後統計,然後再來你地方政府你怎麼給?你這350萬怎麼給?我們放在補助款裡面是按照它核定戶數的比例去射算它業務費給的比例這樣子好,你們這一個一定要交代好,謝謝好,我們請蘇喬惠委員"},{"start":8501.874,"end":8504.78,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請曾主委好 請曾主委"},{"start":8510.924,"end":8536.025,"text":"主委好主委我們今天要做的是原民會的業務報告那也是對您的預算做一點討論那我要再次說啦其實每次在看原民會真的很辛苦因為他等於是把所有原住民的事務都放在原民會裡面要能夠來處理所以包山包海就像一個小的行政院一樣我這樣講你同意啦同意同意啦真的大家都辛苦了"},{"start":8536.425,"end":8540.106,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8564.131,"end":8585.229,"text":"大自然文化對原住民來講應該是非常非常重要的狀況嘛非常重要的一個資產您是排灣族山對您很重要我是阿美族媳婦海對我們很重要主委我想跟您請教您在今天這一次的業務報告當中也就是您這個明年度的原民會的計劃當中跟海有相關的計劃有哪一些"},{"start":8590.319,"end":8594.802,"text":"我們很多的產業產業都在我們這個花蓮台東的這個理論上要有嘛有還有原住民的這個機會所我們也蓋了很多會有特色在海岸海岸這個部分都有"},{"start":8607.29,"end":8614.696,"text":"四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8632.071,"end":8634.352,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8647.947,"end":8648.767,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8669.833,"end":8676.339,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分"},{"start":8690.461,"end":8692.362,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8711.229,"end":8738.703,"text":"你這個主委你都知道嗎知道你都知道那我相信今天在場的我相信有一半以上是不知道的狀況啊我跟我小孩講的時候他還以為這個凱達格蘭豬這不是那個迪士尼卡通裡面那個海洋奇緣他以為是別人的了根本就不是台灣的啊不是我們的啦所以你要讓原住民的文化能夠普及到社會大家能夠認同其實可以做的事情是非常非常多的"},{"start":8739.443,"end":8742.205,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8760.134,"end":8766.458,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8789.915,"end":8792.276,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8815.322,"end":8827.933,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8843.221,"end":8848.403,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8871.952,"end":8884.339,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8898.396,"end":8914.432,"text":"其實是在你們原文會下面有一個很大的計畫啦你們在原文會下面有一個很大的計畫而且他要跨部會去爭取因為造州計畫其實很清楚啊造州涵蓋了記憶、性別、生態知識、經濟、記憶、族群認同、航海的路線要怎麼規劃"},{"start":8917.955,"end":8922.182,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":8933.158,"end":8935.199,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8952.266,"end":8959.593,"text":"應該是要讓更多的人可以知道大家都來參與你的好計畫他們參與了你他們可以得分我覺得這樣大家才會看重原民會這是我們對原民會的態度那另外這個實驗小學的部分其實也是同樣的狀況因為我最近去烏來的德拉南小學主委你是從屏東來的嘛屏東有最多的原住民的實驗小學對不對對"},{"start":8976.427,"end":8979.209,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":8990.543,"end":8993.464,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":9014.432,"end":9036.184,"text":"我們現在確實是看到了我們的實驗教育裡面它其實有很多的困境包括了預算的部分那尤其最難的是在課程製作的部分課程製作才是整個民族實驗學校最難的部分所以一樣回到剛剛的那個部分就是你跟教育部的連結有多少"},{"start":9036.744,"end":9038.645,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":9062.995,"end":9066.377,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":9094.105,"end":9121.997,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請曾主委。好,請曾主委。委員好。在上次5月30號,本席特別質詢曾主委,爭取原錢,跨業政黨,永不放棄。這次的進法補償就是這樣,爭取原錢,永不放棄。"},{"start":9124.867,"end":9132.392,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":9143.376,"end":9153.764,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":9169.422,"end":9176.939,"text":"總質詢的時候就說要用追加預算就是要追加預算我們的權益就是要這樣爭取永不放棄"},{"start":9178.953,"end":9200.11,"text":"本席在5月30號也質詢曾主委應該依法提報原住民族自治法的草案土海法的草案應該依法來訂定發布公法人的設置辦法應該依法都是依法新建原住民族社會住宅依法加速公告傳統禮儀依法"},{"start":9204.861,"end":9226.762,"text":"提報原住民族學校法的草案今天你的報告都沒有提到這些業務報告都沒有提到希望你能夠補充到底你的時程是如何時程最起碼定出個時程好我們看這個原住民族自治原住民族自治"},{"start":9229.007,"end":9250.054,"text":"從105年這8年來一直到114年就是明年度的預算總共編列了4000萬但是過去8年來是唯一唯一的總統從延期法通過之後陳水扁總統有送原住民族自治法的草案"},{"start":9251.004,"end":9265.754,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":9278.274,"end":9289.22,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":9295.404,"end":9308.166,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員"},{"start":9324.793,"end":9337.256,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":9356.122,"end":9362.087,"text":"主委,什麼時候可以增加公告?目前有在進行傳統領域的公告復興區還有殲死鄉最近還要再審兩個部落"},{"start":9374.229,"end":9385.287,"text":"那這些程序完備以後我想可能在一兩個月左右會有一些新的公告為什麼都是山地鄉的有沒有平地原住民的"},{"start":9386.649,"end":9406.242,"text":"有一個部分是泰瑪里鄉的這個加速因為這個經費早就調查完畢了陳水扁總統時代就調查完畢了你們還繼續花那麼多錢很簡單的要跟行政院講以復興期以烏來期來講公告了沒有怎麼樣啊"},{"start":9407.352,"end":9412.115,"text":"一百零三年一月十四號立法院三途通過原住民委員會的組織法當時我們特別"},{"start":9436.414,"end":9454.045,"text":"列附帶結議。實際預算額不含所屬機關不得少於195人。未來並視業務成長情形,予以何時增加至280人。我們看103年附帶結議是103年1月通過的那時候預算額都已經出來了"},{"start":9461.857,"end":9489.782,"text":"一百零三年那時候一百四十七人的預算額一百零四年就按照立法院的附帶決議到一百九十五人復合但是我們看這個病逝業務成長情形何時增加到兩百八十人但是這段時間只有增加三個人本席一再的要求你們要去提報"},{"start":9491.038,"end":9492.319,"text":"你看104年當時的預算經費基金加預算77億8千多萬"},{"start":9498.615,"end":9527.91,"text":"一百一十四年度明年的預算基金加公務預算加文件站因為那時候一百零四年還沒有文件站的經費從那個長照基金從一百零六之後開始有長照基金撥到延命會沒有撥到延命會直接你們去請款的所以不在預算不在你們的預算數裡面總共已經多少一百四十五億成長了一倍但是你們的人"},{"start":9529.312,"end":9540.919,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":9558.291,"end":9575.374,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":9587.591,"end":9616.879,"text":"你人民特考考上的時候啊人民會會辦這個研習嘛對不對對當時你是在哪裡參加研習東埔東埔嘛對不對在巖鄉嘛對不對過去台灣省政府一直照這個人民會成立之後啊尤其是有哈尼主委時代啊我們都是到巖鄉啊現在都是到哪裡啊都是到巖山大飯店啊"},{"start":9618.582,"end":9629.272,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":9643.464,"end":9648.428,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":9672.574,"end":9690.273,"text":"好 我們請黃國昌委員謝謝主席 歡迎有請原民會主委好 請鄭主委"},{"start":9695.851,"end":9715.956,"text":"委員好主任好接下來要審啊 移民會的預算啊當我在看移民會的預算書的時候啊我陷入啊一個極度的困惑跟參考我要怎麼說啊陷入一個極度的困惑跟參考我先帶主委看一下移民會稅出計劃分支計劃"},{"start":9719.534,"end":9732.113,"text":"概況表大概長這個樣子大概長這個樣子當然我們要負責任的審查預算那我就要看嘛看你這個業務在下面你要做什麼事情"},{"start":9733.154,"end":9739.237,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":9757.325,"end":9761.97,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9780.103,"end":9802.934,"text":"本會施政方針施政計畫及業務工作匯報5萬偷動原住民族政策及法規4萬辦理原住民族人口基礎資料庫規劃及建制研究100萬每一個計畫我們都要好好的去看你要做什麼事需要多少錢我要請教主委的第一個問題是"},{"start":9805.421,"end":9813.467,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":9833.826,"end":9846.695,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":9863.786,"end":9891.618,"text":"本會施政方針五萬五萬全部拿去出專刊推動原住民族政策法規四萬四萬全部拿去做專刊這叫做有按照計畫內容執行喔這叫做有按照計畫內容執行喔錢太多是不是錢可以這樣花喔我看完你們錢怎麼花了以後啊我大驚失色啊"},{"start":9892.677,"end":9918.997,"text":"立委審預算不要太認真因為原民會裡面預算書都清猜瞎瞎的嘛不同的內容全部放在一起幫組委出一本個人專刊來再往下看辦理原住民族人口基礎資料庫規劃期建制研究"},{"start":9921.439,"end":9946.386,"text":"連辦原住民的人口基礎資料庫規劃及建制研究100萬都可以拿38萬4千元去出日本專刊前面三個大象喔百分之百拿去給他出專刊還不夠還要從原住民族人口基礎資料庫規劃及建制研究用雲芝當作藉口雲芝38萬4千元"},{"start":9949.824,"end":9972.076,"text":"主委不對啊你剛說都會按照計畫內容去執行我看沒有啊完全沒有啊全部拿來出專刊啊不夠連原住民族的人口基礎資料庫規劃及建制研究都可以挖出來去幫主委出個人成果專刊主委這樣對嗎"},{"start":9973.806,"end":9980.89,"text":"我們這個部分我們會做檢討這個是檢討兩個字就可以解決的嗎以後絕對不會再這樣子做了預算可以這樣花嗎預算可以這樣花嗎這樣子花有沒有違反預算法這個部分跟委員報告我想我們一定會來檢討這樣的一個過程我們以後不會再發生這樣的事情了"},{"start":10003.578,"end":10028.513,"text":"我老實講啦我看了以後我沒有辦法相信你的承諾我們按照這個項目給你的這個錢對你接下來要做什麼樣的運用完全沒有控管檢核的機制嘛所以我才問你嘛預算這樣花有沒有違反預算法這樣核銷可以核銷得過有沒有違反預算法"},{"start":10033.922,"end":10063.101,"text":"主委你認為有沒有違反預算法我們會受那個審計單位的這個檢討如果有缺失我們要改進沒有關係啦我上面秀給你看啊主計重注怎麼講的預算經費的使用要符合計劃內容我對於原民會會員自己檢討這件事情我老實跟您報告期待可能性大概是零啦我會請審計部做專案審計接下來下一個問題"},{"start":10065.407,"end":10082.555,"text":"我們原民會啊派人出去原住民政策代表團啊代表台灣出去啊這應該是台灣的光榮嘛代表我們出去澳洲原住民政策代表團這很重要啊派出去的人是誰選的來請教諸位派出去的人是誰選的"},{"start":10092.605,"end":10109.017,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":10121.311,"end":10138.327,"text":"總共去了四個人嘛啊你說主辦單位指定兩個那另外兩個從哪裡來的他們邀請的喔是他們邀請的沒有關係你會後用書面回覆我因為我對於啊你在備詢台上面所講的話上一次講的時候"},{"start":10140.128,"end":10147.254,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10169.475,"end":10178.638,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10201.84,"end":10208.103,"text":"原民會錢很多是不是?可以這樣幹喔?原民會錢很多是不是?錢多到花不完啊!"},{"start":10232.346,"end":10242.269,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10258.342,"end":10271.765,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10283.635,"end":10301.323,"text":"原民會錢太多了啦這個會期我審預算喔我一定遵照卓榮泰院長的指示啊不可以浪費公帑啊好好處理你的原民會的預算啊謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌委員的執行那下一位請張志仁委員嘿 謝謝"},{"start":10311.599,"end":10316.271,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位官員大家早是不是有請不當黨參委員會林主委"},{"start":10325.597,"end":10352.979,"text":"主委早我們不當黨產主理委員會已經成立滿8年了那調查案件逐漸落幕訴訟也在收尾當中但大家都知道這個黨產會今年較去年的預算還增加189萬總共編列5250萬那我請教一下主委就是說你怎麼解釋大家都很關心的業務量逐漸減少可是預算卻每年在增加"},{"start":10353.717,"end":10370.964,"text":"我想我們的預算的總額並不高大概都5000萬左右那今年多了100多萬主要是待遇調整人事費用固定維持的費用我要跟主委報告在黨產會在112年的決算的這個預算是4190萬跟你今天114年預編的預算相差1100多萬這個金額相對來講就非常的大"},{"start":10380.968,"end":10389.936,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":10406.249,"end":10409.83,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10423.41,"end":10426.411,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10442.435,"end":10447.839,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10466.852,"end":10471.496,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10493.493,"end":10513.39,"text":"主委好本期第一個先來請教主委就是有關於民眾的居住情形因為我本期覺得如果連這個居住的問題都沒辦法解決的話很難說要振興經濟那原民會在110年擬定了原住民住宅4年2期計畫到今年113年剛好期滿"},{"start":10515.652,"end":10524.816,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10543.184,"end":10546.128,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":10554.094,"end":10565.858,"text":"有關於原住民部分在都會區我們大概提供了幾項的住宅的協助包括建構修繕那內政部有住宅的一個補貼從106年到112年我們總共提供了71994戶數的一個提供住宅的一個協助那至於說這個"},{"start":10578.806,"end":10604.558,"text":"有關於這個社會住宅,您講了9年,應該是講的是新北山陰的龍恩浦原住民國宅那一部分。那它那一部分呢,的確它目前因為它租金很便宜,所以流動率很低。那只要有流動,那我知道說它只要有流動,只要有人就是退租,它馬上就會辦理招租。那的確,的確是等很久,因為它流動率很低,是的。"},{"start":10605.449,"end":10623.925,"text":"我希望說就是我們現在原住民的住宅經費每年是編列一億三千多萬元那113年跟114年編列的預算一模一樣內容也一模一樣那本席就會比較納悶是不是你們沒有在檢討這個原住民未來的居住問題所以剛剛"},{"start":10625.626,"end":10628.747,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10646.835,"end":10655.783,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":10666.4,"end":10669.841,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10690.646,"end":10695.348,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10719.838,"end":10729.927,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":10735.899,"end":10753.586,"text":"那也要請教主委這些事情不是第一次發生在2013年的時候那時候這個臺大巴西交流團他們有一個也是表演的當地原住民的一個舞蹈也是因為服裝的關係而引起這些這是第二次我這邊的資料就有第二次發生這樣的情形"},{"start":10754.994,"end":10761.457,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10782.574,"end":10797.053,"text":"那你剛剛有特別講每年5億多這個委員會的文化事業基金會的預算有4836萬也是在文化行銷的預算那是不是主委這邊要怎麼來做一個改進你知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":10797.594,"end":10813.296,"text":"我知道未來我們會全力協助相關這樣的事情就是來幫他們借原住民的各就是各族的這個衣服但是有一些族的衣服比較少啦就是當然我們還是要克服啦希望未來不要再發生這樣的憾事"},{"start":10814.037,"end":10817.479,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10829.451,"end":10853.217,"text":"大家最關心這個最近那個原住民淨法補償的部分那這個行政院最後用追加預算的方式把這個淨法補償從3萬塊提高到6萬塊那其實我們本黨的我們這個五黨級的高金委員也說其實在104年三讀通過的原住民保留地淨法補償及照齡回饋條例草案裡面有提了一個附帶決議"},{"start":10854.577,"end":10861.401,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10882.523,"end":10887.126,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":10916.489,"end":10925.222,"text":"謝謝主委還有我們立委員同仁行政單位的相關夥伴們大家早安大家好那我是不是先請主委或者是我們還有我們基金會的董事長也一起好不好"},{"start":10929.505,"end":10947.631,"text":"主委很快 因為剛才我聽到志倫委員這邊有提到不同族的衣服的問題那我也常常在不同的地方聽到不同族群的歌那常常阿美族的歌會被不同族群來傳唱所以到底哪一些曲子是哪一些族的歌曲我想今天也藉這個機會跟您提醒一下看你們怎麼樣讓這些東西傳統的是傳統的"},{"start":10953.793,"end":10965.857,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":10983.933,"end":10991.539,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11013.917,"end":11028.077,"text":"所以我在這邊今天一開始我要跟你談這個教育文化在那個會裡面也有一些推動我想你們做了很久的這個原住民族知識體系的建構但是在原住民族知識體系的應用"},{"start":11029.278,"end":11031.28,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11044.469,"end":11048.99,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11070.738,"end":11073.442,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11090.987,"end":11097.653,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11116.388,"end":11121.594,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11137.642,"end":11142.624,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11165.051,"end":11172.481,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":11176.852,"end":11184.655,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11204.941,"end":11224.572,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年"},{"start":11234.477,"end":11246.742,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11262.835,"end":11270.06,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11286.451,"end":11289.274,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11307.674,"end":11313.341,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11327.21,"end":11332.115,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11351.906,"end":11362.376,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11381.81,"end":11388.391,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11410.869,"end":11414.731,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11432.958,"end":11446.068,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11460.678,"end":11468.982,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11480.288,"end":11483.429,"text":"三千多萬,那三千多萬你做起來應該也不會說很完善吧?"},{"start":11501.513,"end":11509.595,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11531.201,"end":11539.925,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11552.41,"end":11556.673,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11572.565,"end":11589.053,"text":"我記得在幾年前我還特別的要求我們捷運站一定要我們原住民的圖騰以及我們原住民的意向那現在明年就要通車了現在新北市跟我們山陰縣我們有幾個站有這個圖騰還有這個意向"},{"start":11595.163,"end":11604.387,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11624.258,"end":11627.181,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11639.834,"end":11667.592,"text":"好你來做說明你給他清楚吧主要是當他規劃的時候他們的站當初如果他設計有原住民文化設計的話他後面就會失作那也許現在你剛剛提的那條線他原來規劃設計裡面沒有把他做作為站的主題啦那這一部分的話就會變成沒有失作可能是這樣子因為他們是在捷運工程裡面還有規劃設置每個站他要呈現的外觀跟主題"},{"start":11668.953,"end":11670.154,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11685.194,"end":11708.57,"text":"委員講得很道理,的確這兩個縣我們會給新北市政府建議啦那如果說希望當地原住民族人住了很多那也如果說有這樣的元素我覺得也是車站的特色這個我們跟新北市來建議因為山陵部落那邊齁在新北市來講的話應該山陵部落這邊的人數應該是原住民人數應該是非常的多吧"},{"start":11709.633,"end":11716.298,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11744.661,"end":11748.085,"text":"愈演之愈演之愈演之委員不在我們請伍麗花委員謝謝主席有請原民會主委好請鄭主委"},{"start":11771.293,"end":11790.001,"text":"主委好,我其實每一次原民會來內政委員會做備詢做業務報告我其實是蠻開心的因為我們原住民的立委就有一個特權可以好好的問到底"},{"start":11791.061,"end":11803.351,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11817.475,"end":11826.458,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11836.598,"end":11843.623,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11861.897,"end":11869.519,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11889.384,"end":11896.991,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":11915.619,"end":11939.996,"text":"八、委員因為自從住宅法公布事情之後已經沒有國宅政策只有社會住宅所以現在推的都是社會住宅處長這樣子我要怎麼交代我諮詢過好幾次你們都跟我說會來研議這個是預算會期我就沒看到啊八、委員研議結果的確現在沒有國宅這個政策那你們不能夠用新興計畫嗎"},{"start":11941.317,"end":11945.919,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":11976.713,"end":11979.757,"text":"那是原理這個是我們族人講了十幾年非常在意的一個議題"},{"start":11990.217,"end":11994.421,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12013.581,"end":12021.17,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12034.434,"end":12035.195,"text":"五年一次的世界博覽會是全球大事"},{"start":12047.961,"end":12068.778,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員"},{"start":12076.866,"end":12086.755,"text":"有沒有原住民的展覽內容啊?有沒有原住民的商品展售啊?有沒有原住民的這一些我們的歌舞的這個演出?沒有餒。後來我有協調會議記錄了。我不曉得你們有沒有遵照這個外貿協會有沒有來跟你們談。"},{"start":12100.79,"end":12120.149,"text":"有,不過我們現在得到的答案是外貿協會說他們的場地不適合做樂舞的表演說他們的場地非常的小我們那個協調會的時候說在外面對,就是在外面,就是在外面的場地都非常小原民會不能妥協"},{"start":12121.09,"end":12131.059,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12147.691,"end":12154.413,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12169.622,"end":12178.426,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12194.853,"end":12200.575,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12212.179,"end":12214.08,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12230.484,"end":12233.526,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12253.343,"end":12261.569,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12274.082,"end":12276.123,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12294.668,"end":12308.657,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12324.833,"end":12340.906,"text":"對我來講最重要的就是原保條例但是很可惜原民會、行政院主動想推始終打假球大家天天都想要新政話編、土地分配結果真正要解決根本的原保條例不處理我希望原民會你們要拿出決心"},{"start":12352.827,"end":12356.008,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12378.089,"end":12399.735,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12408.482,"end":12410.304,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12429.385,"end":12432.548,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12450.182,"end":12457.687,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12472.236,"end":12478.282,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12494.932,"end":12503.758,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12526.567,"end":12529.208,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12551.445,"end":12553.726,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12579.264,"end":12584.265,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12607.981,"end":12620.429,"text":"我希望你們要好好的想一想整個荒腔走板你們明明有聘用委員、派監委員、聘監委員這些聘用委員拿掉變成無幾職之後他還叫兼任委員嗎?然後他的工作內容要調整嗎?你們還讓人家給的資料唸出來說他們只會參加婚喪喜慶"},{"start":12632.213,"end":12637.68,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12650.996,"end":12655.257,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12679.02,"end":12684.843,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12706.025,"end":12724.821,"text":"其實我的質詢本來沒有想要講這一題的但是吳麗華委員特別提到這個原民會組織法有兩位委員原住民的委員破天荒的提案要刪除族群委員的薪水的這件事情我想我也發表一些意見"},{"start":12728.084,"end":12736.953,"text":"確實在這個所知的部分還有推薦人的部分那確實你們的資料我後來去看了還真的是非常的不精確"},{"start":12738.48,"end":12743.664,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12759.757,"end":12768.239,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12785.623,"end":12790.588,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12807.446,"end":12815.031,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12833.382,"end":12838.469,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12850.006,"end":12875.693,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12878.809,"end":12886.993,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12900.839,"end":12904.003,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":12914.147,"end":12924.395,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12944.104,"end":12947.91,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12959.848,"end":12964.452,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":12987.068,"end":12995.672,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13014.861,"end":13036.216,"text":"在9月21號的時候呢我在院會的總諮詢有提出因為不論是巷弄長照站或者是文件站那這些照服員的薪資已經有5年沒有調整了當時我有要求行政院明年一定要為照服員加薪那長照的經費呢是在衛福部我也知道呢這個原民會要去跟衛福部談這個照服員加薪的事情"},{"start":13036.616,"end":13038.317,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13055.166,"end":13064.815,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13073.482,"end":13079.326,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13097.398,"end":13103.982,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13125.795,"end":13132.802,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":13152.186,"end":13156.309,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13166.828,"end":13189.525,"text":"這個就是因為5月在這邊已經有說了我主張就是10%還比較客氣一點講10%而已因為後來7月行政院又加了3%的情況那原民會這個原文會原語會應該要提早因應就是要跟著一起調整那送來的預算書其實加加減減你要跟上腳步其實就是13%"},{"start":13191.246,"end":13207.175,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年"},{"start":13219.246,"end":13222.647,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們在後續年度來規劃主年來把它補齊可以嗎?"},{"start":13223.339,"end":13234.304,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":13252.449,"end":13256.172,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":13271.715,"end":13272.496,"text":"主委可以列入重要事項辦理"},{"start":13287.072,"end":13303.645,"text":"包委員我個人9月份到交通局報告之後已經跟原委會做了這樣的提醒就是說雖然民營度的預算沒有編列加薪預算可是因為我們給他人是非是夠的所以我可以請他們在民營度的預算裡面也一樣比照加薪的標準來調整他們的薪水"},{"start":13304.185,"end":13318.487,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年"},{"start":13333.45,"end":13348.744,"text":"提供原住民族企業的補助將近統計了有9億元那我們有沒有去檢討一下過去我們扶植的這些原住民的企業還有目前的經營的情況我知道那個文斌在這個在經發處"},{"start":13351.69,"end":13359.218,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13375.094,"end":13383.958,"text":"有些是經營不善導電關門的我覺得就是說因為我們投入了這些資源其實應該要去追蹤他們的經營狀況那有沒有做過盤點或統計"},{"start":13388.373,"end":13394.539,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13410.501,"end":13412.483,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13429.557,"end":13458.36,"text":"那我想是這樣子因為時間不夠然後我只是就是說最近這你們盤點可能只是最近8年的那我希望把過去的所有的都整理出來那我想這樣子分析也去盤點檢查一下看看裡面分析那個原因不是只有數字而已幾家幾家那個雖然很重要但是我想原因是更重要那你要去看一下裡面有沒有做了又倒倒了又做"},{"start":13458.74,"end":13459.601,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":13474.677,"end":13486.864,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":13501.707,"end":13527.825,"text":"我們會這樣,我們會跟照委的意見來做好,那至於最後那個少編兩萬齁,剛剛說禁法補償,有委員說少編兩萬這個很容易讓族人誤解,大家都焦慮了很久,然後也一直罵執政黨我們並沒有因為這個公務域上的編列而讓大家少領兩萬元,主委你這個要講清楚你九月我就說六萬就是六萬"},{"start":13528.846,"end":13536.047,"text":"至於怎麼編的我想這個是大家在這裡意見不同領到的就是6萬元嘛不要這樣嚇唬人家嘛"},{"start":13538.427,"end":13564.354,"text":"所以主委你要在這邊讓你這個30秒重新講一次就是預算是4萬那也可以從基金公務預算是4萬然後基金可以補2萬那就是加起來就是6萬以前就是循這樣的例來做那麼卓院長更有誠意的就是說跟立法院院長還有各位委員協調結果是"},{"start":13565.794,"end":13572.016,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13596.809,"end":13596.97,"text":"主席"},{"start":13605.991,"end":13629.836,"text":"主委好我想請教一下主委因為過往政府的這個宣傳的經費都偏重於這個特定的媒體那已經引起大家注意所以卓院長在9月16號接受媒體訪問的時候他有說如果真的有集中在一些標案這個其中在一些廠商的這個問題上他會特別的重視那他也曾經提到他說如果"},{"start":13630.256,"end":13633.819,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":13656.038,"end":13659.74,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13676.488,"end":13679.069,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13695.815,"end":13699.279,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":13710.572,"end":13713.933,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13727.716,"end":13740.884,"text":"針對這個部分,剛剛卓院長也特別提到,所以請主委要特別重視這個問題,不要陷卓院長於不義。另外,我再請教您一下,就是有關黨產會在113年度編列了425,000元的預算進行出國考察歐洲國家處理不當的黨產。"},{"start":13749.309,"end":13752.751,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13765.538,"end":13767.22,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13783.431,"end":13788.173,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13800.659,"end":13827.184,"text":"剛剛主委您特別提到說這幾個歐洲國家都有這樣的一個經驗可是我們看了一下行程很多都是參訪當地的遺址那這個跟黨產的這個相關的業務有什麼關係處理黨產沒有辦法跟轉型正義割裂這個黨產處理它的緣由就是因為要做轉型正義你不了解轉型正義的背景、內涵你沒有辦法處理所以你要去參觀遺址就是這個當地的民生遺址轉型正義裡面的一部分"},{"start":13828.524,"end":13833.686,"text":"請問一下,針對這個轉型移植部分,從107年到112年已經參訪這麼多國家,請問你們有接近到什麼有關這個轉型正義啊,或者是不當的黨產的,有什麼具體的結果嗎?"},{"start":13846.61,"end":13848.652,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13867.645,"end":13872.667,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13884.033,"end":13887.654,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13904.64,"end":13909.904,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13921.721,"end":13925.564,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13946.557,"end":13956.763,"text":"政局委我也想跟您請教有關這個族群委員的問題剛剛很多委員都有提到那因為113年度有編列2167萬114年度又編列2247萬總共有16位的族群委員那平均每一位可以領多少錢"},{"start":13966.042,"end":13970.285,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":13985.976,"end":13989.839,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":14013.575,"end":14017.78,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":14037.688,"end":14040.369,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":14057.093,"end":14081.63,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員"},{"start":14086.544,"end":14089.245,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":14105.202,"end":14127.183,"text":"我跟委員講齁,這個橄欖木這個組的這個族群委員,後來他沒有來報導,因為他自己家裡有一些事情,他沒有辦法來報導對,他沒有來報導是因為他家裡有些事情,並不是你們叫他不要來報導的是嗎?對對對好,那既然這樣,他當時為什麼會獲選?他是屏東醫院的護理助理"},{"start":14128.124,"end":14136.247,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":14157.073,"end":14160.874,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":14177.998,"end":14200.711,"text":"他下鄉再回到會裡算那請把相關的資料提供給他他到底下鄉去哪裡了因為你們族群委員有可能根本不住在這個你們跟你們原民會所在的地方所以他只要來開會是不是就可以出差這相關的資料然後另外再請教您就是有關這個族群委員的健康檢查如果要做健康檢查應該是要請什麼假"},{"start":14205.402,"end":14217.425,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":14232.461,"end":14247.068,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":14266.262,"end":14274.848,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":14287.196,"end":14301.641,"text":"相關提案請於113年11月18日星期一下午5點前送至內政委員會。本日議程處理完畢,現在散會。"},{"start":14350.486,"end":14350.913,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"}]}},{"id":"156638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156638","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69fddfdd51e2444ce8bee6d8cd9fc431773fa6d04c6c4783344277aaf2a4e3413f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"09:26:32 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財化法25年沒有修所以我們大家都希望好好的將22個版本逐條的來審查但是我們卻落入了欲速則不達的窘境上週陳玉珍、趙偉排了三天要來審查"},{"start":29.918,"end":57.935,"text":"星期一大家不斷的做會議詢問程序發言一直弄到凌晨12點星期三我們一開始從主席宣布現在繼續開會到宣告散會總共3分鐘我一個字一個字數這個逐字稿有608個字"},{"start":60.762,"end":89.648,"text":"我想說的是這個當中很可惜因為我們真的想要好好的逐條審查22個版本找到對中央地方最適切、橫平的裁劃法但是就因為三分鐘608個字處處的瑕疵就像前面許多委員所提到的"},{"start":90.575,"end":109.748,"text":"我們看到22個版本有18個版本被丟包我們看到我們在沒有停止討論動議之下結果盡致的來做條文處理剝奪了我們一直在等待期待的實質討論"},{"start":112.403,"end":139.05,"text":"在這裡對復議案的處理我們也看到我們出席的14位委員在唱名的時候也只有唱名6人所以像這樣的一個議事結果我相信大家都很清楚我們是覺得應不予確定所以我們有在這邊提案我想說的是剛才有委員提到"},{"start":140.225,"end":167.898,"text":"邱毅英委員對我們聽到了但是請大家回去查邱毅英委員他有補正程序他有重新審查所以我們在這邊也鄭重的呼籲難道我們陳一貞照有做不到嗎所以在這邊再一次跟主席來做這樣的訴求這一次的"},{"start":168.993,"end":190.405,"text":"整個會議審查結果應屬無效我們非常的期待能夠交付由院長做黨團協商我們來補正這個結果這個程序讓25年的財化法能夠忙得有結果謝謝好接著請耐斯堡委員花言"}]}},{"id":"156634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f66de86f1c4b251e6ee6d8cd9fc431773fa6d04c6c4783344f8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:14:34 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沒有一道尖道的名簿來暢明而且依規定點名表決可否不掛半數提案應不予通過"},{"start":252.603,"end":263.357,"text":"但主席僅有在6個人支持不到半數的狀況下結果不成立卻為嚴重的違反議事規則所以我們認為這個復議案的處理是無效的"},{"start":265.186,"end":292.127,"text":"縱上喔就是說上次的會議開會完全沒有照規則來所以我們今天的提案認為上次的會議明顯無效不應該確認上一次的這個議事規則這是我們的主張另外不要用假借審預算為名啦今天只有尋答今天沒有預算處理你看清楚議事討論所以在那邊亂講說我們在擋預算在審查是你們已經擋走預算復回兩個月啦不要這樣安眠"},{"start":295.578,"end":296.439,"text":"故意在那邊亂講一氣啦齁好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156635","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f505c897d29a8c3a7ee6d8cd9fc431773fa6d04c6c47833444b664da36d5803b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"09:19:45 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院長好謝謝剛剛雅玲委員幫忙開了頭關於兒童科普日喔院長應該每次看到我就會想到我是在立法院第一個要求我們的open house要針對孩子們的設計喔那孩子們的定義呢現在在聯合國定義是0到18歲那今年我也再次去參加了兒童科普日喔我印象非常深刻"},{"start":38.257,"end":44.449,"text":"在我們玩完某一個站點之後到了某一個站玩了完全忘記某一個站但我記得那個站的老師說"},{"start":46.263,"end":47.464,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":70.448,"end":84.358,"text":"參與這個活動的老師們還有研究室還有他們的研究助理甚至我們還看到現場非常多的高中志工大學志工因為這確實不在原本中研院的業務當中但是老師們助理們還有志工願意用假日的時間"},{"start":85.679,"end":108.559,"text":"先用上班的時間設計課程內容然後再用其他額外的時間參與了活動所以我要再次感謝所有中研院的老師但我也想要問我從去年5月18提出那院長你們很快在去年的10月14號就有兒童科普日那中研院南部院區的部分的open house現在活動也舉辦完然後看起來回應非常的好"},{"start":109.179,"end":126.935,"text":"如果我再進一步許願有機會我們在人力可行經費可及的情況下有沒有機會在南院也推行兒童科普日機會是有但是我個人目前的想法是先從這個分零標示同一天"},{"start":127.756,"end":146.903,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":147.303,"end":156.493,"text":"然後還有國小的弟弟妹妹．有高中國小的在一起那就沒辦法一起來所以我們目前的想法是這樣子我覺得院長的回應非常的務實也就是說我看起來院長您在辦了兩年的兒童科普日之後發現其實分離是有需求的"},{"start":163.3,"end":185.889,"text":"二、分離去設計活動、安排動線甚至設計相關的對話其實非常的重要我發現非常多的立法委員都會關注關於中研院科普的事情所以我們往下來看其實還有出版品的部分感謝中研院把顏值有物作為相關的出版媒材然後持續跟民眾溝通這個應該也算是中研院的科普活動內容之一對嗎是的"},{"start":186.929,"end":211.497,"text":"好那如果有這個部分的活動我再往下看其實中研院還有人文講座今天也有委員提到不管是過去只有今年只有一場在苗栗或者是後續還有其他的規劃如果把我剛剛講的這麼多科普活動我們再複習一下有所謂的open house後來在我去年提出增加了兒童科普日之後我們還有兒童科普日接下來還有南院的open house"},{"start":211.937,"end":227.705,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":227.945,"end":250.454,"text":"這些工作流程當中我想問一下目前的預算當然立法院不能主動增加預算但是我真的很好奇目前的人力配置或者是預算的配置在這麼多委員都強烈要求科普跟民眾對話的情況下目前的狀況是很辛苦還是很有餘裕還是說其實你們還有更多的想像但是需要立法院更多的支持"},{"start":251.634,"end":273.639,"text":"我們很辛苦,因為這些工作不在我們法定任務裡面。所以我們原來的預算是不會編很多在這邊,必須要想辦法。那假如說這方面要加強的話,可能我們明年的經費要編列的時候需要考量這方面。"},{"start":274.184,"end":303.516,"text":"所以院長我想問一下你目前送進立法院的預算有把這麼多的科普的預算都編足編好編滿嗎?我們請秘書處長回答。好,謝謝。是的,謝謝委員。我們目前的沒有特別把這一項特別的增加。那我們明年會在神聖的評估是否要在這一塊增加。那特別是在人力的部分。因為隨著活動量的增加那自然這個人力的需求也會提升。好。"},{"start":304.116,"end":333.425,"text":"我非常樂意聽到這個非常務實的回答也就是說當有更多的民眾的需求被看見當有更多立法委員對於科普的要求的品質更高數量更多的時候如果都丟有秘書處好像只是一檔一檔一檔活動策劃沒有整體的視野沒有整體的預算規劃其實我相信對秘書處或是公關處應該都相對辛苦所以這個部分要拜託院長了明年也就是說你們現在送進立法院的明年的預算沒有辦法"},{"start":334.045,"end":352.364,"text":"但是明年在編後年的預算的時候你們會謹慎的考慮把相關的預算編足編好編滿讓更多的科普活動的需求可以被滿足我可以這樣說嗎?好,我們會朝著方向努力好,謝謝喔所以包含我再一次跟院長您強調就是open house的部分還有出版品"},{"start":352.964,"end":381.796,"text":"零到十八歲的可能性因為目前這些書當然都很好看我自己讀起來可能都還是有一些門檻當然我自己會努力這是我們當然自己要做的努力但是有沒有機會跟相關的專家學者做成更適合小孩閱讀因為現在108課綱裡面強調非常多素養而閱讀的能力或者是學科以外的知識生活中可以用的這些普及性其實也很需要相關的專家學者來協助還有關於人文講座的部分這個就要持續拜託中研院"},{"start":382.556,"end":400.125,"text":"最後我想要談一下就是關於博士生獎助金調生的方案一樣在你們的預算書當中你們提到預算增列2.02億我想要知道一下目前是不是全部都用於博士生獎助金的調生那院長您運估會有多少人受惠"},{"start":401.766,"end":419.736,"text":"這個數字我請國際處長來回答。好,謝謝。報告委員,現在2.2億是我們總共的預算。那裡面有8千萬,所以在今年有8千萬是用來,專門是放在這個獎學金調升方案上面。那所以這個8千萬已經受惠在700多位的博士生。"},{"start":420.316,"end":448.929,"text":"好,700多位我覺得這已經是我們目前還蠻覺得還蠻可以接受的一個數字不過我們希望如果有機會它當然可以更好讓更多的有學術潛力的博士生願意投入研究的行列可是我們也想要知道相關的預算調升方案有沒有機會帶動其他大專院校調升當然我知道大專院校有他們自己的預算規劃但是中研院作為很重要的政策領頭羊院長你在這個部分有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":449.409,"end":470.311,"text":"我想我們最主要目的正如委員講的我們是要帶動全國的這個博士生的獎助金提升所以我們的這個實行這個政策之後國科會跟教育部都也推出各自的計畫那我想各校也都有自己這個提升獎助金的計畫"},{"start":472.28,"end":500.238,"text":"但是我覺得這個獎助金的計畫當然確實希望可以幫助到更多人投入研究的場域當中然後提升台灣的研究實力不過我認為如果有機會透過跨部會的討論就是由中研院這邊去跟國科會跟教育部就是如同院長您剛說的他們也都提出相關計畫但是各部會之間的跨平台對話或者是你們在執行當中所遇到的一些可能性的問題或者是好的經驗作為彼此分享"},{"start":500.578,"end":500.918,"text":"adequation."},{"start":519.944,"end":540.158,"text":"則是科普的部分要請中研院多多幫忙相關的預算也請積極的編入來年的預算當中讓更多的科普教育可以面對更多的民眾不管是大人還是小孩那出版品的部分也是我希望後續有機會可以跟中研院討論這麼好看的顏值有物有沒有機會透過跟專家學者的合作或是出版專業的團體轉換成0到18歲的孩子也可以讀的內容然後"},{"start":544.121,"end":572.961,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"}]}},{"id":"156684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f03aebba8beae0dcebd36f72287d07ce1a02e3bc7edb1fcc3f0e74eb070a3a03c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:40:22 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：對啊！所以原民會還是要很積極地去爭取，那樣可以顯現原住民整個文化啊！"],["劉處長維哲：委員講得很有道理，的確，針對這兩條線，我們會給新北市政府建議，因為住在當地的原住民族人很多，如果有這樣的元素，我覺得也會是車站的特色，這個我們會跟新北市政府建議。"],["吳委員琪銘：對新北市來講，三鶯部落那邊原住民的人數應該是非常多吧？"],["劉處長維哲：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：光是樹林、光是土城、光是三峽，我們原住民的聚落是非常多的。既然當初新北市都有答應，明年就要通車了，是不是要加快腳步跟他們做聯繫？好不好？"],["劉處長維哲：我們來聯繫。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","我們請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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的文健站相較於其他年齡的人都還非常的硬朗，而且非常的活潑，所以我們在文健站課程內容的部分，還有對於我們文健站長者的定位，原民會要重新做思考，應該在內容上要讓他們更符合他現有的狀況，也就是讓他們看起來比一般的人還年輕。所以我們在內容，不要把它變成跟我們一般社會所謂長照體系一樣的概念。我最近也一直跟其他委員在推動所謂的壯世代，我想你我都是這裡面的一員，很多文健站的長者，縱使比我們長一點，但是他們在整個生活體系上還是非常積極的，好嗎？內容的部分，請原民會來做一個好好的思考。","接下來，可不可以請一下基金會？我接下來是談族語體系的部分，我很快的講。族語體系，我知道我們現在用的是羅馬拼音，我先講，我希望你們給我一個書面的東西，我們目前使用的數據跟推動的效果，我希望有一個數據比較清楚。但是族語的系統，請原民會思考一下，我們雖然現在用羅馬拼音，我知道這是一個很大的課題，可是像本席學的世界語言，也有不同的拼音方式，你們怎麼樣契合包括在文獻上，在一些書籍上，這個東西怎麼去處理？這是很大的議題，我雖然在這邊很快的講過。"],["馬耀．古木董事長：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：最後因為時間的關係，本席非常注重的重點，在預算上，本席絕對是非常的投入的，來，我跟你們講，我們知道在奧運之後，雖然很高興我們的成績很好，相關經費也在未來會有一些投入，可是本席要提醒原民會，細部計畫我要很快看到，你們細部計畫來之前我要提醒，在奧運的項目，我們都記得楊傳廣吧？他讓我們最驕傲的那是奧運權重、加權很重的田徑項目，我們什麼時候能再看到像楊傳廣這樣子的人出現？第二個，就是我們持續的在目前奧運項目上的優勢，怎麼協助讓現在的成績更好？第三個，不好意思，我阿美族來講一下話，請問我們的海域活動應該是我們的強項，但是在我們奧運的內容上，不是只有原住民喔！可能全臺灣在水域的資格賽，拿起來都還是很付之闕如的，所以原民會在整個運動方面的推動，要注意本席講的這幾個項目，不要懵懵懂懂的，不是很專業的就又把那些錢不小心、不知道如何的花掉了，這個是我在預算上絕對會堅持的。","最後，在預算上我要提醒的是你們目前已經有的國家樂舞團，請記得我的提醒，國家樂舞團是國家的層次，它拿出去是讓全世界看到的，所以以你們現在的編制跟未來的走向，你們要好好的思考喔！本席建議你們，我已經看到你們簡要的一個報告，但是本席對這個部分不滿意，因為它沒有到一個國家的層次，而且在這個國家的層次裡面，有太多我們原住民的菁英或者是原住民的人才在這個區塊，你們怎麼樣讓這些人透過國家樂舞團有一個表演的平臺，這點是重要的，這也是我在預算上會堅持的，我先跟主委做這樣子的溝通，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：言簡意賅，但是你們真的一定要把它當一件事，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：好，我們請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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art":565.253,"end":569.856,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":598.598,"end":599.665,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1252,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時22分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，大家早，是不是有請不當黨產委員會林主委？"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委早。我們不當黨產處理委員會已經成立滿8年了，調查案件逐漸落幕，訴訟也在收尾當中，但大家都知道黨產會今年較去年的預算還增加189萬，總共編列5,250萬，我請教一下主委，你怎麼解釋大家都很關心的，業務量逐漸減少，可是預算卻每年在增加？"],["林主任委員峯正：我想我們預算的總額並不高，大概都5,000萬左右，今年多了一百多萬，主要是待遇調整、人事費用，固定的維持費用。"],["張委員智倫：我要跟主委報告，黨產會112年的決算是4,190萬，跟你114年預編的預算相差一千一百多萬，這個金額相對來講就非常的大。我主要要跟主委說，你們就是預算執行不佳，黨產會真的現在也沒有那麼多的業務要做，過去主委也說希望黨產會可以提早關門，我想請教一下，有沒有打算什麼時候把不當黨產委員會解編，將相關業務移交行政院？我在這邊請問主委願不願意成為讓黨產會圓滿順利交接給行政院的歷史人物？"],["林主任委員峯正：既然委員這麼關心這件事情，我想也在這邊公開呼籲法院能夠動作快一點，我們有八十幾個案子，現在真正確定的只有兩個，而且其中有一個還沒有完全確定，我們也一直希望……我們這些人力、同仁的年紀都很輕，能不能趕快到別的地方去工作，這個我想我的願望跟委員是一樣的，但是我們的主要業務現在沒辦法完成，全部卡在法院，像最近有一個案子要宣判已經卡了7年第一審……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委，我記得在你們黨產會的報告中提到，如果黨產會結束，相關的法律訴訟其實是可以交由行政院來繼續接手，所以主委可以回去看看你們的報告，看是不是可以採用。我也建議可以比照促轉會的部分，將業務跟人事權像轉型正義的方式來處理，可以將業務轉到其他部會，讓不當黨產委員會能夠完美的謝幕，好不好？這個跟主委報告。"],["林主任委員峯正：好，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝主委。接下來我們請原委會曾智勇曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。第一個先來請教主委有關於民眾的居住情形，因為本席覺得如果連居住的問題都沒辦法解決的話，很難說要振興經濟，原民會在110年擬定的原住民住宅四年二期計畫，到今（113）年剛好期滿，我請教一下主委，這個計畫快要結束了，主委有沒有針對原住民的住宅議題舉辦過公聽會？你們過去是用什麼樣的方式來蒐集原住民現在的居住狀況？就本席得到的消息，新北市有原住民為了等待社宅，已經等了9年，主委現在有沒有統計，到底我們所有的原住民好朋友有多少是候補不到社會住宅的家庭，針對這個狀況，原民會有沒有做統計？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是讓我們處長來……"],["張委員智倫：好，請說。"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，有關於原住民的部分，在都會區我們大概提供了幾項的住宅協助，包括建構修繕，內政部有住宅的補貼，從106年到112年，我們總共提供了7萬1,994戶數的住宅協助。至於有關於社會住宅，您講的9年，應該是新北三鶯的隆恩埔原住民國宅那一部分，的確目前因為它租金很便宜，所以流動率很低，我知道只要有人退租，它馬上就會辦理招租，的確是等很久，因為它流動率很低。"],["張委員智倫：好，我們現在原住民的住宅經費，每年是編列一億三千多萬元，113年跟114年編列的預算一模一樣，內容也一模一樣，本席就會比較納悶，是不是你們沒有在檢討原住民未來的居住問題？剛剛主委跟處長這邊還是沒有回答我，到底有多少人數現在還沒有辦法排到社宅？所以本席要建議，你們是不是要開公聽會，是不是要再注重我們原住民好朋友住的權益？","本席也要特別提醒原委會，114年的媒體宣傳費編了3,696萬，比今年的法定預算2,585萬還多了一千多萬，本席是建議原委會在有關住宅業務經費的預算應該要提升，而不是在媒體宣傳費來做提升，我覺得這樣對所有原住民好朋友才是一個更好的事情，本席也會嚴格來把關，你們今年新編的這一千多萬的業務費到底要用在哪裡。","接下來，我也要請教大家比較重視的，本席有接到臺北市公立高中生的陳情，他們今年暑假代表學校去馬來西亞出國交流，因為交流活動所需，他們要表演自己國家的文化，討論完他們決定要表演原住民邵族的舞蹈，可是他們四處去租借，都租借不到邵族的服裝，不得已只好在租戲服的公司租了阿美族的服裝，結果回來以後，這個照片被po在網路上公審，引發非議。主委，我這邊要幫學生們來喊冤，其實他們有跟原民會以及臺北市原民會聯繫，是沒有任何的單位有資源可以來幫他們租借服裝。也要請教主委，這件事情不是第一次發生，在2013年的時候，臺大巴西交流團他們也是表演當地原住民的舞蹈，也是因為服裝的關係引起爭議，我這邊的資料就有第二次發生這樣的情形。而且我再跟主委報告，其實這一次發生的事情，外交部、僑委會也跟原民會請求協助，結果你們的回答就是沒有資源，所以請教主委這樣的事情，學生到國際之間交流推廣原民的文化，其實是比你用很多媒體宣傳費去辦……這意義非常的重大。你們剛剛有特別講，每年五億多，原委會文化事業基金會的預算有4,836萬，也是在文化行銷的預算，主委，這邊要怎麼來做一個改進？你知道這件事情嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道，未來我們會全力協助相關這樣的事情，幫他們借原住民各族的衣服，但是有一些族的衣服比較少，當然我們還是要克服，希望未來不要再發生這樣的憾事。"],["張委員智倫：好，主委，我剛剛講了，人民的納稅錢有撥了大概好幾千萬來做一些文化行銷，所以你是不是能保證未來可以不要發生這樣的情形？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望不要再發生這樣的事情了。"],["張委員智倫：好。最後，大家最關心最近原住民禁伐補償的部分，行政院最後用追加預算的方式，把禁伐補償從3萬塊提高到6萬塊，其實無黨籍的高金委員也說，其實在104年三讀通過的原住民保留地禁伐補償及造林回饋條例，裡面有提了一個附帶決議，就是要提高禁伐補償的金額，應該由開徵碳稅來支應。現在碳稅從明年就會開始開徵，主委還有我們原民會，是不是應該主動提出爭取碳稅來捍衛原住民的權益，有沒有這樣的打算？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會，未來我們會主動來爭取。"],["張委員智倫：要怎麼樣來爭取，你們有研議了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為開始爭取應該是在環境部，跟環境部來……"],["張委員智倫：所以有開始研議，還是已經有開始爭取，有跟環境部來做討論了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們開始研議了，也會請教環境部看怎麼來爭取。"],["張委員智倫：好，希望會後，你們研議的狀況也可以用書面的方式，讓我們本委會的委員知道，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝我們張智倫委員的質詢。","下一位我們林倩綺委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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會請審計部做專案審計。","接下來，下一個問題，原民會派人出去，原住民政策代表團代表臺灣出去，這應該是臺灣的光榮，代表我們去澳洲，原住民政策代表團這很重要，派出去的人是誰選的？來，請教主委，派出去的人是誰選的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有的時候是那邊的主辦單位有指定人，但是有的時候是我們這邊派人……"],["黃委員國昌：好，以今年的這個計畫來講是誰選的？不要含糊啦！講清楚啦！是誰選的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：主辦單位他們直接來指定是我們莎韻科長跟李康寧專委。"],["黃委員國昌：那原民會推薦的有幾個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們沒有推薦。"],["黃委員國昌：總共去了4個人嘛！你說主辦單位指定兩個，那另外兩個從哪裡來的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：他們邀請的哦！是他們邀請的。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你會後用書面回復我。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我對於你在備詢臺上面所講的話，上一次講的時候就跟內容有出入了啦！所以你們會後趕快發一個新聞稿說那個族群委員都是你挑的啦！不是卓榮泰挑的啦！跟你備詢講的內容完全不一樣，但我看了就覺得很誇張耶！原民會很多錢嗎？公務員要提升英文程度，我一點意見都沒有，公務員要提升英文程度，我一點意見都沒有，但要公平嘛！你幫一個特定的人舉辦一對一英文會話，幫他請老師耶！一次2,500塊，幫他搞了8次，花了4萬塊，原民會是錢太多是不是？全中華民國每一個公務員都有這種待遇嗎？一對一的英文會話課，一堂課2,500，搞了8堂，花4萬塊，原民會錢很多是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：可以這樣幹喔？可以這樣幹喔？原民會錢很多是不是？錢多到花不完，全中華民國的公務員大家看了都很羨慕，一對一耶！英文課一堂2,500，錢就這樣砸下去，來，我請教一下現場原民會的長官，有上過這種一對一英文會話課的請舉手，有上過這種一對一英文會話課的請舉手，都沒有？只有他有？錢可以這樣花喔？沒關係，主委，這件事情回去查清楚，一個禮拜書面回復，誰點頭的，錢可以這樣花喔？原民會錢太多了啦！這個會期我審預算，我一定遵照卓榮泰院長的指示，不可以浪費公帑，好好處理你們原民會的預算。謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘代）：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","下一位請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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,{"start":109.775,"end":131.69,"text":"提報原住民族學校法的草案今天你的報告都沒有提到這些業務報告都沒有提到希望你補充到底你的時程是如何時程最起碼定出個時程好我們看這個原住民族自治原住民族自治"},{"start":133.919,"end":154.998,"text":"從105年這8年來一直到114年就是明年度的預算總共編列了4000萬但是過去8年來是唯一唯一的總統從延期法通過之後陳水扁總統有送原住民族自治法的草案"},{"start":155.936,"end":170.686,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":183.206,"end":193.19,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":209.207,"end":213.489,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":229.904,"end":240.568,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":261.034,"end":268.94,"text":"主委,什麼時候可以增加公告?目前有在進行傳統領域的公告復興區和殲食箱最近還要再審兩個部落"},{"start":279.141,"end":293.141,"text":"那這些程序完備以後我想可能在一兩個月左右會有一些新的公告為什麼都是山地鄉的有沒有平地原住民的有一個部分是太馬里鄉的"},{"start":294.246,"end":299.988,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":312.267,"end":317.05,"text":"一百零三年一月十四號立法院三途通過原住民委員會的組織法當時我們特別"},{"start":341.345,"end":358.961,"text":"列附帶結議。實際預算額不含所屬機關不得少於195人。未來並視業務成長情形,予以何時增加至280人。我們看103年附帶結議是103年1月通過的那時候預算額都已經出來了"},{"start":366.789,"end":394.716,"text":"一百零三年那時候一百四十七人的預算額一百零四年就按照立法院的附帶決議到一百九十五人,符合但是我們看這個病逝業務成長情形何時增加到兩百八十人但是這段時間只有增加三個人本席一再的要求你們要去提報"},{"start":395.973,"end":397.257,"text":"你看104年當時的預算經費基金加預算77億8千多萬"},{"start":403.53,"end":432.822,"text":"一百一十四年度明年的預算基金加公務預算加文件站因為那時候一百零四年還沒有文件站的經費從那個長照基金從一百零六之後開始有長照基金撥到延命會沒有撥到延命會直接你們去請款的所以不在預算不在你們的預算數裡面總共已經多少一百四十五億成長了一倍但是你們的人"},{"start":434.224,"end":445.831,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":463.223,"end":480.297,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":492.483,"end":504.226,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":523.694,"end":534.203,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":548.376,"end":553.341,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":577.51,"end":578.175,"text":"好,我們請黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1179,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時2分）主席、各位委員，有請曾主委。"],["主席：好，請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：malimali masalu。"],["曾主任委員智勇：malimali aray。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：在上次5月30號，本席特別質詢曾主委，爭取原權、跨越政黨、永不放棄，這一次的禁伐補償就是這樣，爭取原權、永不放棄，我們看原住民禁伐補償的經費，從105年開始公務跟基金，但是105年度沒有用到基金，經過本席多次的質詢，一直到113年就全部都用公務預算，114年就只有公務預算，所以不足，這個要很誠實地跟我們的委員說，今天你的答詢就有錯誤，確實不足，所以才會繼續來爭取，非常謝謝卓院長終於按照我10月4號總質詢的時候就說要用追加預算，就是要追加預算，我們的權益就是要這樣爭取，永不放棄。本席在5月30號也質詢曾主委，應該依法提報原住民族自治法的草案、土海法的草案，應該依法來訂定發布公法人的設置辦法，應該依法，都是依法喔，興建原住民族社會住宅，應依法加速公告傳統領域，應依法提報原住民族學校法的草案，今天你的報告都沒有提到這些，業務報告都沒有提到，希望你能夠補充，到底你的時程是如何，最起碼要訂出個時程。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我們看原住民族自治，原住民族自治從105年，這8年來一直到114年，就是明年度的預算，總共編列了4,000萬，但是過去8年來唯一的總統，從原基法通過之後，陳水扁總統有送原住民族自治法的草案，馬英九總統也有送原住民族自治法的草案，唯獨承諾會很快送原住民自治法到立法院的蔡總統，這過去的8年，連從原民會提報到行政院都沒有，連從原民會出門都沒有，所以這個錢還要編列嗎？關於這個部分，希望你能夠在下一次審預算的時候提出原住民族自治法的時程，我們才能夠決定到底這個預算還要不要編列，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：幾天可以提出時程？"],["曾主任委員智勇：大概兩個禮拜好不好？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，兩個禮拜，差不多，恐怕如果下一次看……我的建議就是，下一次如果我們召委在審原民會預算的時候要提出來，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，傳統領域，我當副主委的時候就開始調查了，也就是陳水扁總統的時代就全部調查完畢了，然後原住民族基本法也規定，也定了劃設辦法，雖然原住民族傳統領域的劃設辦法我們不滿意，但是還是要做，過去8年花了多少的經費，加上過去的8年、十幾年，你看看我們的傳統領域，現在才一個，本來公告兩個，被撤銷一個，所以主委，什麼時候可以增加公告？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是請副主委？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。"],["杜張副主任委員梅莊：跟委員報告，目前有在進行，像那個……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：進行什麼？"],["杜張副主任委員梅莊：傳統領域的公告，像復興區還有尖石鄉，最近還要再審兩個部落，這些程序完備以後，我想可能在一、兩個月左右會有一些新的公告。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：為什麼都是山地鄉的？有沒有平地原住民的？"],["杜張副主任委員梅莊：有一個部分是太麻里鄉的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個加速，因為這個經費早就調查完畢了，陳水扁總統時代就調查完畢了，你們還繼續花那麼多錢，很簡單地，要跟行政院講，以烏來區來講，公告了沒有怎麼樣啊！不要擔心啊！對不對？好不好？"],["杜張副主任委員梅莊：跟委員報告，因為有程序的問題，跟委員報告，因為後來立法有……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：程序很簡單。"],["杜張副主任委員梅莊：委員，有新增加了要定這些辦法，所以我們按照程序來走，以前就是因為程序有瑕疵……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：法規都很明確了。"],["杜張副主任委員梅莊：才會退回來。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：法規都很明確。好，103年1月14號，立法院三讀通過原住民委員會的組織法，當時我們特別列了附帶決議，實際預算員額（不含所屬機關）不得少於195人，未來並視業務成長情形，予以核實增加至280人。我們看，附帶決議是103年1月通過的，那時候預算員額都已經出來了，103年那時候147人的預算員額，104年就按照立法院的附帶決議到195人了，是符合的，但是我們看「並視業務成長情形，予以核實增加至280人」，但是這段時間只有增加3個人，本席一再地要求你們要去提報，你看看104年當時的預算經費，基金加預算七十七億八千多萬，114（明）年度的預算，基金加公務預算加文健站，因為那時候104年還沒有文健站的經費從長照基金撥入，從106之後開始有長照基金撥到原民會，沒有撥到原民會，你們直接去請款的，所以不在你們的預算數裡面，總共已經多少？145億，成長了一倍，但是你們的人……原民會的職員、公務員非常地辛苦，所以人事室主任要提報，我質詢過人事行政總處的人事長，他說原民會沒有提報啊！"],["陳主任榮宏：報告委員，我們有跟人總那邊去爭取員額。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：按照立法院的決議，原民會你們自己的報告，原文會跟公共電視的薪資落差差距之大，這個有沒有解決？處長，有沒有增加？明年會不會增加？"],["陳處長坤昇：跟委員報告，明年度原文會這邊有編列8%的調薪。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：已經很多年沒有調嘛！對不對？非常非常多年，所以這個部分要趕快落實。","主委，你原民特考考上的時候，原民會會辦研習嘛！對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當時你是在哪裡參加研習？"],["曾主任委員智勇：東埔。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：東埔嘛！在原鄉嘛！對不對？過去臺灣省政府一直到原民會成立之後，尤其是尤哈尼主委時代，我們都是到原鄉，現在都是到哪裡？都是到圓山大飯店，都是到圓山大飯店，都是圓山大飯店，要到原鄉東埔活動中心對不對？有時候會在技藝研習中心對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有時候會到花蓮、到臺東、到屏東文化園區，過去都在那邊辦。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：很多活動都在那邊辦，現在都是到圓山大飯店。中華民國所有部會最常在圓山大飯店辦活動的就是原民會，連客委會從來都沒有在那邊辦過，所以這個部分要請主委，原民會辦活動就到原鄉原住民族地區好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：我們請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張智倫","林倩綺","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","許宇甄","黃仁","丁學忠"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分；三、審查 114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金─原住民族綜合發展基金；\n四、審查原住民族委員會函送財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發\n展基金會114年度預算書案；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會單位預\n算","agenda_id":"1139601_00003"}}},{"id":"156673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69fd8cee245d0096c09bd36f72287d07ce1a02e3bc7edb1fcc33f1c478c5b52ad615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:52:20 - 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我也認為應該要很多才對啊產業都在我們這個花蓮台東的這個理論上要有嘛有還有原住民的這個機會所我們也蓋了很多會有特色在海岸海岸這個部分"},{"start":97.006,"end":105.734,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":121.627,"end":123.908,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":137.486,"end":138.306,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":159.372,"end":165.879,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分"},{"start":179.997,"end":182.178,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":200.768,"end":228.245,"text":"你這個主委你都知道嗎知道你都知道那我相信今天在場的我相信有一半以上是不知道的狀況啊我跟我小孩講的時候他還以為這個凱達格蘭豬這不是那個迪士尼卡通裡面那個海洋奇緣他以為是別人的了根本就不是台灣的啊不是我們的啦所以你要讓原住民的文化能夠普及到社會大家能夠認同其實可以做的事情是非常非常多的"},{"start":228.985,"end":230.646,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":254.082,"end":256.603,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":279.451,"end":282.974,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":298.846,"end":304.089,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":327.543,"end":331.159,"text":"有喔?可是這裡面跟原民會完全沒有關聯性啊?"},{"start":332.757,"end":337.94,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":361.531,"end":373.876,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":387.935,"end":406.534,"text":"其實是在你們原文會下面有一個很大的計畫啦你們在原文會下面有一個很大的計畫而且他要跨部會去爭取因為造州計畫其實很清楚啊造州涵蓋了記憶、性別、生態知識、經濟、記憶、族群認同、航海的路線要怎麼規劃"},{"start":407.495,"end":411.718,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":422.705,"end":424.607,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":441.805,"end":464.308,"text":"應該是要讓更多的人可以知道大家都來參與你的好計畫他們參與了你他們可以得分我覺得這樣大家才會看重原民會這是我們對原民會的態度那另外這個實驗小學的部分其實也是同樣的狀況因為我最近去烏來的德拉南小學主委你是從屏東來的嘛屏東有最多的原住民的實驗小學對不對對"},{"start":465.969,"end":468.75,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":480.103,"end":482.005,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":503.985,"end":525.726,"text":"我們現在確實是看到了我們的實驗教育裡面它其實有很多的困境包括了預算的部分那尤其最難的是在課程製作的部分課程製作才是整個民族實驗學校最難的部分所以一樣回到剛剛的那個部分就是你跟教育部的連結有多少"},{"start":526.266,"end":528.187,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":552.535,"end":555.916,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1123,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時52分）謝謝主席，請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。我們今天要進行的是原民會的業務報告，同時也要針對您的預算做一點討論。我要再次說，每次看原民會真的很辛苦，因為它等於是把所有原住民的事務都放在原民會裡面來處理，所以包山包海，就像一個小的行政院一樣，我這樣講你應該同意啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：真的大家都辛苦了！但正因為是包山包海，所以我認為原民會跟其他中央各部會應該要有很強力的連結，才能夠把這麼多的事情做好，主委，我這個觀點你同不同意？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：應該要跟各部會做一個更好的連結嘛！這樣子的話，我今天就從這個方向來跟你就教。主委，大自然文化對原住民來講應該是非常非常重要的資產，你是排灣族，山對你很重要；我是阿美族媳婦，海對我們很重要。主委，我想跟你請教，你在今天這一次的業務報告當中，也就是在明年度原民會的計畫當中，跟海相關的計畫有哪一些？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們很多的產業……"],["蘇委員巧慧：很多？我也認為應該要很多才對啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，產業都在花蓮、臺東的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：理論上要有嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，還有原住民的聚會所我們也蓋了很多，很有特色，在海岸這個部分都有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，所以我覺得海是一個很重要的資產，海我們也需要去維護它，可是光是從文字的描述來看，這個文字其實也蠻重要，這個文字代表了你們原民會的態度和想法嘛，這本裡面其實沒有任何海的相關文字。我去找預算書，跟海唯一有直接相關聯性的是什麼？是南島民族論壇六年計畫，只有這個計畫是明白地看起來跟海有關係，好，那我們用這個計畫來看的話，剛剛好幾位委員也已經討論過了，這個計畫你們的KPI是什麼？效益是什麼？你們這個計畫的KPI是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們希望就是跟南島這幾個國家，不管是語言，不管是文化，我們都要去做連結。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，我也是這樣希望，我希望能夠實質達到目的，可是KPI是什麼？KPI就是用來檢視這個計畫到底執行的方向對不對，可是我看到你們的KPI都是這種單件式的，會議開了幾場、多少人來參加等等，事實上到底對文化的復振能夠有什麼樣的效果，我其實真的看不太出來。我再舉一個例子來看，我們剛剛講到海，跟海最有關聯性的是什麼？其實是船嘛，因為要有船，才能夠出去到海上，除了個人下海之外，就是船才能讓你在海上走得更遠，我們看看原住民的文化，噶瑪蘭族有獨木舟，雅美族有拼板舟，凱達格蘭族有邊架艇，阿美族有竹帆筏，這些主委都知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：知道。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你都知道，我相信今天在場的有一半以上是不知道的狀況，我跟我小孩講的時候，他還以為凱達格蘭族的邊架艇是迪士尼卡通海洋奇緣裡面的，他以為是別人的，根本就不是臺灣的了，不是我們的了啊！所以你要讓原住民的文化能夠普及到社會大眾能夠認同，其實可以做的事情是非常、非常多的。不是說只做這件喔，我是用這個舟來舉例，用舟來舉例我們的海洋文化到底反映在你的哪一些計畫當中可以看得出來？比如你剛剛說的聚會所，聚會所裡面有用海洋文化來建構主旨的嗎？有這樣開嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果有的話，我們是不是加碼補助，或是怎麼樣去設計，即要符合什麼條件才可以來領補助，如果你這個計畫是這樣開、你這樣寫的話，其實大家就知道現在原民會有這樣的概念，所以走山的、走海的都要能夠呈現這個部分，我看處長在後面一直點頭，這樣可能是報告寫得不夠清楚啦。所以我是建議，在為你們自己爭取預算的時候，不要只寫這種單件式的KPI，如開會開幾場、做了什麼，這個真的是很難打動人心，很難說服委員把錢發給你們，可以理解我今天質詢的重點嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那你看這樣子的狀況，你自己的計畫沒有寫出要怎麼提振讓社會知道這個部分？我去看別的部會，剛剛你也同意要跟別的部會有更多的連結，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我在海委會的部分就有看到，海委會有復振航海文化力的計畫，做得很大啊，它還邀請臺東縣原住民族傳統竹筏人才培訓啟航等等，然後下面也是跟原住民族有關的，這兩則新聞，主委你有看過嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有喔？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有、有、有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是這裡面跟原民會完全沒有關聯性啊，你的會在裡面完全沒有被提到，你是有參與、有投入資金，他沒給你寫嗎？那你怎麼能夠放過海委會呢？有嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有參與。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你沒有參與，人家做成這樣你都沒有參與，這樣不是白白浪費了這個資源跟原民會嗎？所以不管你從哪個角度，你看這就是你跟其他各部會的連結，我覺得相當有狀況嘛！所以今天我是用這個計畫第一個先跟原民會特別討論的部分，你自己的計畫到底有沒有辦法呈現是要復振原住民族文化的這個部分？你知道原民會的相關預算當中其實是有造舟計畫的，你知道嗎？主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有一個造舟計畫。"],["蘇委員巧慧：哪一個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是在達悟族的一個拼板舟的造舟計畫。"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實是在你們原文會下面有一個很大的計畫啦，你們在原文會下面有一個很大的計畫，而且它要跨部會去爭取，因為造舟計畫其實很清楚，造舟涵蓋了祭儀、性別、生態知識、經濟、記憶、族群認同、航海的路線要怎麼規劃、船上要吃什麼、怎麼辨別方位，全部都是傳統智慧啊，你們原文會就有這樣的計畫，它要跟各部會去要，要跟外交部要，要跟文化部要，你們原民會知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們知道。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你有幫忙嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊，我們現在教文處這裡已經在協助了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，這就是我希望的，你把大計畫開出來，讓各部會都能夠來參與，這樣原民會才有機會可以做大，不然人家都覺得你們就自己玩自己的，我覺得這樣是很可惜的狀況，原民會其實是臺灣國家的寶貝，應該是要讓更多的人可以知道，大家都來參與你的好計畫，他們參與了，他們可以得分，我覺得這樣大家才會看重原民會，這是我們對原民會的態度。另外，實驗小學的部分其實也是同樣的狀況，因為我最近去烏來的德拉楠小學，主委，你是從屏東來的嘛！屏東有最多的原住民實驗小學對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：地磨兒超級有名嘛！屏東有6間，你過去在民族實驗學校的時候有遇到什麼樣的困難嗎？當時的原民會有給你什麼樣的補助、支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：其實當時我還在當原民處處長的時候，很多年以前都是縣裡面自己就現有的預算先做，原民會補助的實在比較少啦！"],["蘇委員巧慧：當時的你想不想要原民會給你更多的補助？"],["曾主任委員智勇：想啊！"],["蘇委員巧慧：你現在是原民會主委了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我就會主動去協助這些……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你說的喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：會。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這句要把我錄下來、截錄下來喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我們現在確實是看到了我們的實驗教育裡面，它其實有很多的困境，包括了預算，尤其最難的是在課程製作的部分，課程製作才是整個民族實驗學校最難的。所以一樣回到剛剛的那個部分，就是你跟教育部的連結有多少，你不能把這件事情全部都放給教育部，對啦！我們沒有那麼多的人力沒有錯，但是我們至少要確保教育部做的跟我們想要的是一樣的啊！所以今天用這兩個部分跟主委這邊就教，我是非常希望看到原民會未來是可以跟其他的各個部會多做連結，預算一起做、計畫一起開，這樣是比較符合理想的狀況，主委，可以齁？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果你已經有相關的資料，我今天質詢的不夠清楚的，麻煩你有的，你統統送過來，這樣我下一次就可以知道你其實做了很多。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：羅智強、羅智強，羅智強委員不在。","我們請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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8.817,"end":191.073,"text":"立法的目的是應該為了保障族人的生計,所以保留了原住民傳統領域土地,是不是?是。是嗎?那請問沒有原住民身份的人可以買原住民的土地嗎?不能。不能嗎?既然您知道不能的話,有沒有聽說這個不是原住民,但是借原住民的名義來土地登記?"},{"start":192.688,"end":201.072,"text":"原住民保留地來使用原住民保留地的情況您是否瞭解?我知道有這樣的狀況很多吧?那怎麼辦?我們這個保留地開發管理辦法就是為了保障原住民族的生計結果現在卻遭到用高額抵押權的方式借民登記讓原住民保留地不斷的流失"},{"start":221.681,"end":227.305,"text":"四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分。五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分。"},{"start":248.473,"end":256.359,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":278.784,"end":302.177,"text":"跟委員報告,其實這個是有關於委員講說這個是有人頭的問題當然我們知道,但是實際上現在還是在原住民的民意就是登記的所有權還是原住民只是他是走一個脫法的行為在做這個處理,我們也知道那我們的管理條例也在立法要未來要阻止這個事情的發生"},{"start":302.517,"end":305.359,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":333.217,"end":339.059,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":351.242,"end":357.006,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":378.12,"end":382.205,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":398.513,"end":401.155,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":417.637,"end":420.898,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":435.236,"end":439.619,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":459.133,"end":461.314,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":481.311,"end":482.032,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":501.293,"end":518.302,"text":"包委員這353主要是補助地方政府推動建構住宅的業務費因為他需要一些業務費來推動那KBI1000的確我們寫比較保守事實上比這個多啦那事實上多少事實上多少我們會後統計完再提供委員絕對比這個高很多"},{"start":520.953,"end":533.743,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1054,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時42分）謝謝主席，本席請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。主委，首先想就我們原住民族工作權的部分跟您就教，您應該瞭解原住民族工作權保障法第十二條規定，政府採購法的廠商沒有使用一定人數的原住民是不是要繳納代金？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！根據大法官釋字第810號解釋「計算所應繳納之代金金額超過採購金額，可能造成個案顯然過荷之情狀……有關機關應至遲於本解釋公布之日起2年內（112年10月27日）依本解釋意旨修正之」。現在就是用少聘的人數乘上基本工資，或者不超過採購金額的部分，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！所以這些處罰的目的是為了收罰款，還是為了保障原住民的工作權？"],["曾主任委員智勇：最主要是保障原住民。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，最主要是保障嘛！立法的目的是為了保障原住民的工作權，但現在這樣子也沒有辦法保障工作權，那你們現在怎麼辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：針對這個狀況，我們也有開過幾個會，希望針對這個狀況看能不能……"],["徐委員欣瑩：大法官解釋的結果並沒有辦法真正保障到工作權，你們有沒有打算送案？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們目前正在修法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼時候要送出來？"],["曾主任委員智勇：已經送了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經送到行政院了？儘快好不好？行政院通過之後，儘快送到立法院。","再來，臺北市促進原住民族就業自治條例法規在111年修正，為什麼到113年才突然說違憲？已經實施兩年的法案突然說違憲，請問地方如何能夠安心？"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告，因為過去我們在臺北市有一個浩然的案例在，我們等到它判決之後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：才發現？"],["羅處長赫踛：對，確定浩然那邊是敗訴，所以我們在後面……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望原住民族委員會的主委和整個團隊要有效率，讓原住民族能夠安心好不好？","第二個，原住民保留地立法的目的應該是為了保障族人的生計，所以保留了原住民傳統領域土地，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！請問沒有原住民身分的人可以買原住民的土地嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不能。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不能嘛！既然您知道不能的話，有沒有聽說不是原住民，但是借原住民的名義來土地登記原住民保留地、來使用原住民保留地的情況？您是否了解？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道有這樣的狀況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很多吧！那怎麼辦？保留地開發管理辦法就是為了保障原住民族的生計，結果現在卻遭到用高額抵押權的方式借名登記，讓原住民保留地不斷的流失，有沒有什麼預防性的政策跟做法？"],["謝處長亞杰：跟委員報告，針對委員關切有關於借名登記或者是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不用再重複我的問題，趕快答。"],["謝處長亞杰：我們在原住民保留地權利回復及管理利用條例已經有訂定私有原保地不能設定抵押權給非原住民的規定，這個部分我們已經……"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經設定的怎麼辦？就算了嗎？少掉一半了！"],["謝處長亞杰：這個部分我們有統計。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就本席手上的資料，大概快要50%了！我們才剛通過原住民保留地禁伐補償，對不對？會不會又有很多非原住民運用相同方式取得禁伐補償？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：跟委員報告，關於委員所講的這是有人頭的問題，當然我們知道，但是實際上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們沒辦法、沒作為？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：實際上現在還是原住民的名義，就是登記的所有權還是原住民，只是它是走一個脫法的行為在處理，這個我們也知道，我們的管理條例也在立法，未來要阻止這個事情的發生。另外，有關禁伐補償有沒有人頭的部分，事實上，我們目前也在清查，我們在了解一些大面積的部分是不是有這樣的情形，我們目前在調相關資料，因為這涉及到個資法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們還在調？我們都知道有一半都被拿去抵押了。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：委員，抵押的部分我們這邊都有資料。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們看到上個月原民會好像有預告訂定原住民保留地權利回復及管理利用條例的草案，對不對？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這裡面是不是已經把借名登記的部分納入了此次修法？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：我們針對剛剛委員所說高額抵押的這個部分有做一些處理，就是未來原住民保留地的抵押只能夠在公營行庫，一般私人的不行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，大部分都到私人……"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：因為從私人的部分就會看到這個大概都有一些其他的內幕在裡面，可能透過這樣的流程變成實質上的流失。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，請你們儘快改善好不好？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接下來是剛剛高金委員有問到的，本席也要特別詢問，就是在114年度你們的預算裡面有南島民族論壇總部維運費440萬，其中的工作項目包括協助帛琉語的字詞典編纂，我們不太知道這個為什麼要由你們編？這是第一個問題。南島民族論壇這個部分剛剛高金委員也詢問過，接著還有一項，你們辦理原住民住宅業務及多元居住協助相關經費，你們上面寫的績效指標是要宣傳1,000人，編了350萬，為了宣傳1,000人編了350萬！本席告訴你，如果要宣傳1,000人，你找10個人，一個人一天給他2,000塊或2,500塊，一天找10個人去宣傳，難道沒有1,000人嗎？就1,000人，我2萬5,000元解決，你卻要花350萬？以上這些問題請主委回答一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：第一個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們為什麼要去幫帛琉語的字詞典編纂？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們南島民族論壇……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就算要的話，再怎麼樣也是外交的費用，為什麼是原住民呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：南島民族論壇的總部在帛琉，因為帛琉他們一直希望我們來挹注這樣的經費，因為我們需要它來做一個總部，來跟南島的一些國家，包括馬紹爾還有帛琉等等，希望所有的南島國家都能夠連結，我們很需要帛琉這邊的工作人員來協助，所以他們希望我們協助他們自己國家的詞典編纂，我們也願意來幫忙，好讓這個工作能夠更順利的推展。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你們有什麼成果？你們每年都在編。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們有啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：總部維運就是要這樣進行就對了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們現在跟南島國家的友誼，因為南島國家其實就是我們自己家裡人一樣，我們不是在做外交，我們是在做自己家裡人的連結……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那你接著說明有關宣傳的部分，宣傳1,000人要350萬！"],["劉處長哲維：報告委員，這350萬主要是補助地方政府推動建構住宅的業務費，因為它需要一些業務費來推動。至於KPI 1,000，的確我們寫得比較保守，事實上比這個多啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：那事實上是多少？"],["劉處長哲維：我們會後統計再將資料提供給委員，絕對比這個高很多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有會後統計？再來，地方政府你怎麼給？你這350萬要怎麼給？"],["劉處長哲維：我們放在補助款裡面，是按照它核定戶數的比例去設算業務費給的比例。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們這一個一定要交代。"],["劉處長哲維：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["劉處長哲維：謝謝。"],["主席：請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張智倫","林倩綺","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","許宇甄","黃仁","丁學忠"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分；三、審查 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各做各的耶你們的預算是來自於原民會編給你們兩位基金會是不是如此與法會做了很多事情是不是"},{"start":564.847,"end":568.45,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":590.219,"end":598.709,"text":"主委你們是不是應該跟族人道歉該給你們的預算給你們了該要求你們做的政策做了為什麼還是如此你們是不是要檢討你們的預算我們真的要讓你通過嗎"},{"start":605.911,"end":609.813,"text":"所以今天不是不讓你們通過我僅僅的要求你們比照農業不一樣一筆一筆的細算告訴我們你們要做什麼什麼時候達到預期的目標是什麼這次為什麼不是你們做然後做不好的原因在哪裡你們這樣子才能夠滾動式的檢討嘛不是每一年來這邊你們給我們的預算書都是一模一樣我看到23年啦"},{"start":632.433,"end":643.941,"text":"記住我今年會好好的審你們的預算看你們的制度跟預算還有立法委員在這邊努力要求你們做的通過的一些法案你們有沒有真正銜接好因為今天時間真的有限這個原基會還有與發會你們兩個要努力"},{"start":651.286,"end":654.748,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":673.004,"end":683.451,"text":"至少兩個月一次那為什麼連女方會已經產生出我們的姓名條例各族的這樣我們還會發生這種離譜的事情我們會檢討檢討好不好還有我們的屏東的文化發展中心你們三個聽好我今天要求原民會的本預算公務預算要做好每一個細部每一筆錢要做什麼事情你們回去的時候也給我比照辦理我相信趙薇馬上就會排審你們的預算"},{"start":702.003,"end":716.735,"text":"到時候讓全國的族人、全國的老百姓看清楚我們的納稅錢你們有沒有花在刀口上不要以為今年就很好過你們今年會非常的不好過因為我把我全力的精神會放在原民會的預算上面好嗎?謝謝丁薛忠、丁薛忠、丁薛忠委員不在我們請徐欣怡委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":982,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時30分）請主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["高金委員素梅：在主委回答之前，高金素梅本席代表召委，我是上一次的召委，在這裡要謝謝內政委員會，包括宏陸召委，你們都非常支持禁伐補償，雖然到了最後我們的卓榮泰院長有一點意見，但是也終於在七七49天完成了我們立法院交付的三讀任務，所以也代表原住民的族人在這裡再一次……雖然在場現在只有召委在，但是我要代表我的族人謝謝內政委員會的委員們，在我們初期審禁伐補償的時候大家的支持，非常感謝，謝謝。","主委，我都感謝了，不分黨派都謝謝了我們內政委員會的委員們，你要不要謝謝一下在野黨？在野黨在堅持了49天……"],["曾主任委員智勇：當然、當然。"],["高金委員素梅：終於我們行政院同意依法編列禁伐補償少編的2萬塊，然後你在11月8號，你的新聞稿也特別指出禁伐補償將以追加預算的方式辦理，這是最適宜的解決方法，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：所謂的追加預算，就是不管是114年度或是115年或者是以後，全部都在公務預算裡面編1公頃6萬塊，你要不要謝謝大家？"],["曾主任委員智勇：當然，這個要謝謝我們所有原住民的立委，還有平地的立委，也謝謝委員一直以來對這個事情的關心，後來這個事情要謝謝卓院長，更要謝謝韓院長，三黨最後來做一個協商，大家都能夠在氣氛很好的氛圍下把這個事情完成，我想我也會呼籲我們自己的族人，今後要更愛惜我們自己的土地，要更守護我們的土地，讓我們的土地能夠發揮水土保持還有國土涵養的作用，要謝謝政府，謝謝我們民意代表，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：我讓你花很多時間講，你要謝謝大家。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：雖然我們的要求很簡單，就是要求行政院依法行政，所以他也聽懂了為什麼立法委員要堅守我們的立場，因為是在立法院三讀通過的法律案，這當中有非常多的辯論就不用在今天提了，因為今天我們是要來看你們的預算，而且時間很短，我要很快地請你快速來說明一下，你還記得嗎？我當時在這邊有跟你提出來，我們原住民的人口大概是占全臺灣2.59%的人口比例，照理講我們應該有811億的預算，可是原民會你們給的預算總是被行政院大砍，今年原民會的預算是122億，好啦！我們就按照這122億來好好的監督你們114年度到底要做什麼，上個會期的時候，我有請你們按照農業部來制定相關預算科目細部計畫的說明表，你還記得嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：記得。"],["高金委員素梅：這裡面是要確保我們的預算能夠名實相符，可是坦白說，我仔細看完之後，我很失望，我今天就拿出幾個來跟你討論一下。第一個，我們來看一下農業部的範例。農業部的你看一下，450萬他們要做農學會報，然後這個農學會報要做兩份期刊，還有辦理相關的研討會，連幾場都寫得很清楚，預期的效益也寫得很清楚。還有往年相同或類似計畫的具體績效、補助委辦的原因、指定補助或者是委辦對象的理由，寫得很清楚喔！你看，密密麻麻，它只有450萬喔！","來看原民會的，第2頁，花500萬要辦理原住民日會慶活動，你只有3句話就要跟人民拿500萬，你覺得怎麼樣啊？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個部分，我們寫得太簡單了。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！請問原民日辦了只為自己爽嗎？還是原民日在舉辦這個相同活動的時候，要讓整個臺灣的大社會明白為什麼會有原住民日。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：然後是不是要辦活動的同時，也要讓大社會消除對原住民的歧視，讓全臺灣人對這個所謂的全民原教是很清楚的，這樣我們花500萬才會有用嘛，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：但是你沒有啊！好，我們再來看第20頁，118萬要辦南島民族論壇，請問一下，南島民族論壇是要做什麼事情？我們為什麼要做南島民族論壇？你看，你也是沒有寫什麼東西啊！好，南島論壇辦完了，我們是不是要交流？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：交流完畢以後，我們是不是要把我們的經濟產業提升？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：有嗎？我們辦幾年的南島論壇了啊？這些人有到部落裡去消費嗎？這些人有靠我們的網站，然後買我們原住民的農特產品、買我們原住民的服飾？你看，我今天的衣服多漂亮？是不是？有透過這些網站，部落裡面都已經教它會的這些技藝啊，但是你們一直不斷地要做什麼民族論壇、民族論壇，可是它的效益是什麼，你也沒有告訴我。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告。"],["高金委員素梅：再來看，因為時間有限，今天只有8分鐘。再看一下第36頁，增劃編的工作是從省府時代就有的計畫，我到了立法院裡面，我跟其他原住民立法委員非常努力，增劃編的工作才變成常態化，然後1,900萬要做補辦增劃編工作，不是不行啦，可是我們都已經做好調查了，請問這是誰的業務？土管處對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：土管處。"],["高金委員素梅：土管處，你們做多久了？我剛剛說了，從省府時代你就開始在做了。"],["謝處長亞杰：是。"],["高金委員素梅：劃好了沒有？"],["謝處長亞杰：我們持續在做。"],["高金委員素梅：劃好了沒有？"],["謝處長亞杰：跟委員報告，其實那個……"],["高金委員素梅：從省府時代到現在劃好了沒有？每年給你1,900萬耶！劃好了沒有？"],["謝處長亞杰：我們都有進度持續在……"],["高金委員素梅：劃好了沒有？劃到哪裡了？你不要浪費我的時間。召委，時間請暫停，我不希望原民會這樣，今天召委請你們來做專案報告，我們只有8分鐘的時間，問你什麼事情你都沒有辦法，都說持續在做。我剛剛已經告訴你，從省府時代做到現在……"],["謝處長亞杰：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：我在立法院都已經23年了。"],["謝處長亞杰：跟委員報告，我們有持續在跟縣府、跟公所的部分持續精進……"],["高金委員素梅：所以就請你直接回答問題在哪裡。"],["謝處長亞杰：是。"],["高金委員素梅：問題在哪裡？你們已經劃好了，對不對？"],["謝處長亞杰：對，我們有部分已經劃好了。"],["高金委員素梅：有收到增劃編補編的族人有多少位？你們具體的績效在哪裡？"],["謝處長亞杰：我們可以把具體績效的部分會後提供給委員參考。"],["高金委員素梅：你們有提供給我嗎？幾年了？謝謝，請你回座。主委，你看到了沒有？這就是你要領導的團隊啊！","再來看一下第44頁，傳統領域的調查。從陳水扁時代96年就開始了，也是本席我在這個地方，到現在已經多少年了？23年了。我們每年要花800萬辦理傳統領域調查工作，做完了沒有？"],["謝處長亞杰：跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：傳統領域調查完了沒有？"],["謝處長亞杰：我們今年的部分已經要做13個部落的調查，明年的部分……"],["高金委員素梅：早就調查完了，我告訴你，陳水扁時代就在這邊調查，你們的副主委現在坐在下面，以前他是處長。"],["謝處長亞杰：是。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道你現在做到這個位置會非常地辛苦，請問一下主委，分管這個業務的副主委是誰？是不是也是杜張處長？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，杜張……"],["高金委員素梅：他現在已經是副主委了對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：請問從陳水扁時代一直到現在，我們每年花了這麼多錢，到底問題在哪裡，傳統領域已經劃好了我知道，公告了沒有？如果不能夠公告，問題在哪裡？我們人民還要每年給你花800萬，然後連一個公告都沒有嗎？我跟您說，花錢誰都會，對不對主委？122億雖然還不足我們人口的預算，但也是不少錢了嘛！122億是不是應該花在刀口上？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好。因為真的時間不夠。來，兩位基金會還有屏東的中心上台一下，謝謝。你們看到我剛剛怎麼質詢主委了吧！我剛剛聽到好多委員在這邊講，你們好像是個體戶各做各的耶！你們的預算是來自於原民會編給你們的，兩位基金會是不是如此？語發會做了很多事情是不是？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：報告委員，是。"],["高金委員素梅：你們的名字也已經建構在網路上面了，為什麼沒有跟原民會講好？原民會為什麼沒有跟內政部講好？姓名條例終於在立法院三讀通過了，早就告訴你們要跟內政部銜接好，為什麼還會發生我們的族人到地方去以後被人家羞辱一番？你們覺得自己在幹什麼啊！主委，你們是不是應該跟族人道歉？該給你們的預算給你們了，該要求你們做的政策做了，為什麼還是如此？你們是不是要檢討？你們的預算我們真的要讓你們通過嗎？所以今天不是不讓你們通過，我僅僅要求你們比照農業部一樣，把一筆一筆的細算告訴我們，你們要做什麼、什麼時候達到、預期的目標是什麼、這次為什麼不是你們做，然後做不好的原因在哪裡，這樣子你們才能夠滾動式檢討嘛！不是每一年來這邊，你們給我們的預算書都是一模一樣，我看23年了啊！記住，我今年會好好地審你們的預算，看你們的制度跟預算，還有立法委員在這邊努力要求你們做的，通過的一些法案你們有沒有真正銜接好。","因為今天時間真的有限，原基會還有語發會，你們兩個要努力，兩位董事長，你們不要以為脫離了原民會就有什麼自主權，並沒有！你們成立的目的也是在我們原民會或是教文處所有的法規裡面，所以不是各做各的。請問一下主委，你有沒有經常找他們兩個開會？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有找啊！"],["高金委員素梅：多久開一次會？"],["曾主任委員智勇：至少兩個月一次。"],["高金委員素梅：連我們都已經產生出姓名條例了，語發會，為什麼各族的這樣……還會發生這麼離譜的事情？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會檢討。"],["高金委員素梅：檢討，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：還有我們屏東的文化發展中心，你們3個聽好，我今天要求原民會的公務預算要做好每一個細部、每一筆錢要做什麼事情，你們回去的時候也給我比照辦理，我相信召委馬上就會排審你們的預算，到時候讓全國的族人、全國的老百姓看清楚你們有沒有把我們的納稅錢花在刀口上。不要以為今年會很好過，你們今天會非常地不好過，因為我會把我全部的精神放在原民會的預算上面，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：丁學忠、丁學忠、丁學忠委員不在。","我們請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張智倫","林倩綺","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","許宇甄","黃仁","丁學忠"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分；三、審查 114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金─原住民族綜合發展基金；\n四、審查原住民族委員會函送財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發\n展基金會114年度預算書案；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會單位預\n算","agenda_id":"1139601_00003"}}},{"id":"156666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69fb178958ddcc6fc3abd36f72287d07ce1a12e40efa9c24bd3b237660b68eba81e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:21:59 - 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text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":145.886,"end":149.168,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":171.717,"end":176.142,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":190.035,"end":205.042,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展中心部分關於原住民族文化發展"},{"start":219.068,"end":222.41,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":235.979,"end":238.261,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":266.099,"end":275.772,"text":"我們就講到長照好了長照我最近收到一個公文就是衛福部因為曾經我有提案過說希望在原住民地區佈建住宿式的長照機構"},{"start":277.619,"end":281.121,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":299.753,"end":309.255,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":329.925,"end":344.306,"text":"跟委員報告那在這個會議當中大概會有幾個結論因為他現在就是說住宿型機構啊他大概要有一個小時路程就還是要一個小時以那個醫院的路程為主那但是在那會議當中有特別奠定有一個"},{"start":344.927,"end":349.109,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":373.441,"end":375.623,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":403.221,"end":404.382,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":419.022,"end":423.105,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":441.018,"end":444.34,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":463.956,"end":471.9,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":498.717,"end":500.104,"text":"好,我們請高金素美委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":929,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時21分）主席，有請主委。"],["主席：好，請曾主委。"],["盧委員縣一：主委好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：好久不見。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好久不見。"],["盧委員縣一：我今天拿了你給我們內政委員會的這個報告，我看的時候非常高興，因為你的標題是用魯凱語，那我想考你一下魯凱語，你會不會唸這個？它是羅馬拼音。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我是排灣族，所以我不太會唸。"],["盧委員縣一：來，你跟我唸一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：114 ka cayli ku kikake ku akaungane si apelaelane ku arakaiyane ku paisu。"],["曾主任委員智勇：114 ka cayli ku kikake ku akaungane si apelaelane ku arakaiyane ku paisu。"],["盧委員縣一：我希望你寫了這個標題，你還是要去唸一下，說不定所有的族群會問你。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：那我們回到我們的重點，就是族群委員的問題，因為之前紛紛擾擾，那你可以告訴我你希望的族群委員的定義是什麼嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，原民會從85年成立以來就有所謂的族群委員，各個族群都有一個族群委員，那麼這個族群委員，我們從以前……"],["盧委員縣一：我想問你的是你希望他是呈現……你用一兩句話來說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我希望這個族群委員是我們跟部落的橋梁，希望他了解他自己族群的問題。"],["盧委員縣一：我希望他是一個族群的外交官，代表我們整個族群。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，然後不管……"],["盧委員縣一：可是現在我們在看的時候就沒有具有代表性，那為什麼會產生這樣的問題？大家吵來吵去最主要的根源就是在上一屆，我們講第10屆好了，那時候民進黨是絕對多數，我們無從置喙，這次是我們相對稍微多了一點，你們有沒有徵詢我們所有7位原住民立委說你能不能提出一些推薦的人選，你們都沒有問，第一個，你們沒有問嘛！所以全部都變成民進黨委員的一個……類似他推薦的一個過程。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們有很多是他可以自薦，也可以地方的民族議會來推薦，很多方式可以推薦。"],["盧委員縣一：這些我都知道，可是我覺得公平、公正、公開這個部分就沒有做到，因為我們當初在講，其實我私底下也有給你我希望……因為我自己也覺得自己很渺小，我自己是推薦比較小的族群，因為我覺得你們是執政黨，我給你們大一點的，我拿小的，我推薦小的族群，結果你們還是沒所謂公開、公平、公正的原則，所以才會吵到現在這麼大的問題出來。我們當然不希望他們無給職，可是我們希望他們具有代表性，我一直說他是一個族群的外交官那個位階，而不是說現在你拿出來了以後，他們是去做地方的會勘，不然就去做一些什麼代替你出席一些會議，我覺得這個根本就跟他原來的工作性質完全是背道而馳。"],["曾主任委員智勇：他們也有做陳情案的處理，跟委員報告。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，當然是啦！因為你是主管，你有相當的權限可以指派他的工作，可是就他族群委員這個名稱來說，應該是相對多數要站在他的族群立場在工作。我們先聽看看上一次大家都瘋狂的影片。","（播放影片）"],["盧委員縣一：現在這個影片大概也超過好幾十萬人在看，所以大家也都對族群委員有一個相當的了解，可是我們再看103年到現在你所謂的遴選，都是有什麼熱心族群服務或者是熱心原住民族公益，這些都是非常籠統的東西，所以我是希望它還是回歸到公平、公正、公開的原則來做，這樣你下一屆或者說未來產生族群委員的時候，你就不會那麼傷腦筋。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，謝謝委員，我想我們可以來修正我們的遴選要點，就是將來怎麼樣遴選，什麼樣的人適合做這樣的工作，但我想要讓我們的族群委員變成無給職，委員你也知道非常辛苦，這不可能，因為我們的幅員這麼樣的遼闊。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我的認知是這樣子，所以我希望它能夠按照這個原則，然後真的是代表這個族群，我們就願意讓他成為我們的族群委員，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：為什麼這一屆會有這麼大的問題，你要去思考，去改變它。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：再來講到長照，我最近收到一個衛福部的公文，因為曾經我有提案過，希望在原住民地區布建住宿式的長照機構，然後這個會議也開完了，10月25號開完了，我看到他們的會議紀錄還是只有給我跟伍麗華，沒有給你們，他們開他們的，你們做你們的，你們永遠沒有機會再聊這些未來住宿型的長照機構。比方來說，我們上次陳情的是屏東的住宿型長照機構，他是原住民的經營者，結果一談發現屏東縣已經是超出它所謂的資源，它超出的床數大概二千多床，所以屏東縣根本就沒有機會來做原住民長照的住宿型機構，那這樣我們就要擺在那邊嗎？這些事情就不要解決嗎？所以衛福部開這種會你們沒有列席，這樣不是很奇怪嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊！我們的處長有去參加這個會議。"],["盧委員縣一：有去嗎？好，那處長你告訴我你的想法。"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告，在這會議當中大概有幾個結論，因為現在的住宿型機構，它大概要一個小時的路程，就還是要離醫院一個小時的路程為主，但是在那會議當中，有特別訂定花蓮瑞穗衛生所那邊會先做一個試辦，試辦成功之後才會推廣到屏東縣，但是我們也希望建議他將來在開這種住宿型的機構，主管機關……"],["盧委員縣一：我們講屏東，因為主委非常清楚屏東，我們屏東想要申請的這家機構是在瑪家鄉，瑪家鄉相鄰的屏東市、長治跟內埔都是相對醫療資源多的地方，可是我們今天不是在看醫療資源，是看這個長照機構是我們原住民需要的，比如說他是有文化敏感度的，他是我們原住民的一些長照人才，可是如果你要用到……希望把什麼內埔鄉、長治鄉的稍微改變一下就變成原住民的長照機構，裡面可能一些空間給他們，但這個就不是我們需求的，所以可能你們在討論這些長照住宿型機構的時候，應該要強烈的要求要有我們原住民式的長照機構，好不好？"],["羅處長赫踛：我們會協助。"],["盧委員縣一：好，因為時間的關係，我再講我們的語推人才一直都補不到人，目前還是缺30幾個，也就是說我們希望……這邊是寫152員，然後現在都還是在119，你覺得問題出在哪裡？已經5年過去了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，都會地區確實是很難找，因為他們都有固定的工作，但是現在我們在想教國小的其實通過中高級的族語認證就可以來當老師了，這樣的話，慢慢來解決這個問題。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你的條件，比如待遇或者是他的遴選條件或者是說這些能不能再檢討……"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們放寬。"],["盧委員縣一：再放寬？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在都會區再放寬。"],["盧委員縣一：最後一個問題就是名字的問題，這是我們排灣族的，我相信你應該理解，那你希望是哪一個？1？2？3？1.saljeng lja tjuleng？2.saljeng tjuleng？3.ti saljeng a lja tjuleng？"],["曾主任委員智勇：第二個比較簡單，也比較順。"],["盧委員縣一：好，這個有所謂文化關係的意見要徵詢，結果我們沒有被徵詢到，那到底是誰參加這個會議？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們主要是邀請語推的老師，還有耆老，沒有邀請到民意代表，這點很抱歉，我想我們會再……"],["盧委員縣一：我是希望能夠發文到辦公室，我們可以派我們的專業人才參加，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：你跟我的意見一樣是第二個，好不好？謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張智倫","林倩綺","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","許宇甄","黃仁","丁學忠"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分；三、審查 114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金─原住民族綜合發展基金；\n四、審查原住民族委員會函送財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發\n展基金會114年度預算書案；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會單位預\n算","agenda_id":"1139601_00003"}}},{"id":"156662","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69fcd9ec77852b0365ebd36f72287d07ce1a12e40efa9c24bd319376995a466ca645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:13:13 - 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要買。它要買。它怎麼買?它後來用一個標案的方式,是用讓售,是用標售。那定價怎麼定?它綁成要全國性的社團,那全國性社團他們當初是用了民眾服務社。"},{"start":336.317,"end":338.358,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":354.869,"end":380.164,"text":"輸的問題現在這樣子我剛說我們是作為黨產條例的主管機關我們對於黨產追徵的範圍收的範圍我們有我們的解讀可是現在法院現在他卻表示出一個見解當然也有其他法官不同意見其中有一派的法官說一定要是當初買的時候買便宜的或者沒有買是用送的這種黨產才可以出現在就是要講給你聽"},{"start":381.965,"end":410.311,"text":"做國國人黨主席來跟官派的臺北市長、臺北市的國債處來說要買喔!這個價錢怎麼會合理?他當時要有計算的基礎因為那是40年前的事情我們現在要如何去還原到40年前說我說你這個要買便宜這個我們是不好說的因為我們沒有很明確的證據很難這樣子去說但是他現在法院卻保持這樣的見解他說你要去證明說他買便宜了"},{"start":410.811,"end":415.854,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":435.146,"end":455.893,"text":"其實我曾經跟高雄市政府那個時候應該是跟高雄市政府去過這個西班牙那西班牙也有一個轉型正義的一個遺址那其實我對於黨場不當黨場委員會出國考察的事情我是必須要在這裡表達支持"},{"start":456.613,"end":459.336,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":476.315,"end":482.217,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":509.498,"end":509.62,"text":"我們請盧縣議委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":869,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時13分）謝謝，請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：主委在今天來到內政委員會以前，其實你沒有對於原住民禁伐補償條例正式的在內政委員會做一個說明。6月5號立法院三讀通過原住民禁伐補償條例，每年禁伐補償金由每公頃3萬元提高到6萬元。主委，你什麼時候上任？"],["曾主任委員智勇：5月20號。"],["李委員柏毅：你上任後16天內，立法院通過這個條文，也就是說必須要增加現有的補償金25.99億，將近26億，也就是說，原本在114年歲出概算的125億裡面有高達52億必須要來做禁伐補償，如果行政院沒有在最近這一段時間做預算的調整，你們原民會的預算會有41.6%要來做禁伐補償的發放，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["李委員柏毅：好，在這兩個月我們在擔心什麼？在這兩個月我們就在擔心設址在高雄的原住民博物館明年度業務費的編列，包含這個籌備中心編列的1億9,000萬會不會少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會被排擠到。"],["李委員柏毅：一定會被排擠。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：在2032年要開園的原民會博物館有可能被排擠，每年被排擠，原本要蓋8年，可能變成要蓋16年，有沒有這個可能？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有可能。"],["李委員柏毅：包含原文會、原語會，你說的原本今年度要好，但是室內裝修還沒有好，有沒有可能被排擠，連明年都不會好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也有可能。"],["李委員柏毅：也有可能，因為預算的排擠嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：那造成預算的排擠，把錢拿來做禁伐補償，民進黨政府跟原民會後來所做溝通的內容到底是怎麼樣？主委，你有沒有跟院長爭取這6萬元一定要如期發放，院長的態度是怎麼樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我有跟院長爭取，希望能夠發放給原住民，當然我有跟他講，但是因為後來卓院長跟韓院長他們黨團協商時說就是用很多方式，可以用追加減的方式，也可以用二備金的方式，也可以按照以前原民會以預算跟基金對等的方式來發放，那麼最後院長很有誠意，跟韓院長還有黨團協調後是用追加減預算的方式來辦理。"],["李委員柏毅：也就是說，民進黨政府、卓榮泰院長跟原民會這邊討論完，我們要來支持禁伐補償的預算，但是我們必須要用其他方式來編列，才不會去排擠到其他部分，現在原委會其實還有在做很多其他的業務，包含我們很重視、我們一直在追的高雄這個原民會的原民博物館園區，需要這些相關的預算。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：現在原委會還有推動很多業務，包含保留原住民語言，包含地方創生，包含我很重視的一個部分，我對這個也會繼續追蹤，就是強化偏鄉寬頻環境數位轉型，用三千六百多萬可以做到什麼程度，對這個我們也很關心，要讓偏鄉原民的小朋友跟都會地區一樣有網路可以使用，這可以做到多少普及的程度，在所有原民聚會所的普及率可以達到什麼程度，我想這個我們後續都會持續來追蹤，今天聽到曾主委很清楚地表達，我也表示肯定。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：來，我請不當黨產處理委員會的林主委。"],["主席：好，請林主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，最近官司好像不太順利。"],["林主任委員峯正：有幾件官司，但是我們都上訴了。"],["李委員柏毅：原因是什麼？"],["林主任委員峯正：原因是這樣子，我們是不當黨產處理條例……"],["李委員柏毅：我講一個案子好不好？"],["林主任委員峯正：好。"],["李委員柏毅：我們講這個大孝大樓。"],["林主任委員峯正：是。"],["李委員柏毅：關於大孝大樓，我大概看了一下不當黨產委員會這邊的資料，這是在民國72年的時候中國國民黨主席蔣經國主席去函臺北市國宅處說：你這個賣給我，本來是要買兩層，後來全部買了，經過當時官派的臺北市長同意，是不是？"],["林主任委員峯正：對，它原來是一個國宅的用地，本來是要蓋國宅……"],["李委員柏毅：所以應該是要蓋國宅？"],["林主任委員峯正：是，原來是國宅計畫。"],["李委員柏毅：但是後來被國民黨買走了。"],["林主任委員峯正：國民黨要買。"],["李委員柏毅：國民黨是怎麼買？"],["林主任委員峯正：後來是用一個標案的方式，就是用標售……"],["李委員柏毅：那定價怎麼定？"],["林主任委員峯正：就是綁成要全國性的社團，他們當初是用民眾服務社當……"],["李委員柏毅：全國性社團？民眾服務社就是中國國民黨的民眾服務社？"],["林主任委員峯正：對，是用民眾服務社的名字去標，那就標到了，後來他們就把這個房地過給國民黨。"],["李委員柏毅：那很清楚啊！就是臺北市的國宅變成中國國民黨的嘛！"],["林主任委員峯正：是，變成黨產。"],["李委員柏毅：那到底輸在哪裡？到底他們上訴之後輸在哪裡？"],["林主任委員峯正：關於輸的問題，現在是這樣子，我剛剛說我們是作為黨產條例的主管機關，我們對於黨產追徵的範圍、收的範圍，我們有我們的解讀，可是現在法院卻表示出一個見解，當然也有其他法官持不同意見，其中有一派的法官說，一定要是當初買的時候買便宜了，或者沒有買、是用送的，像這種黨產才可以處理。"],["李委員柏毅：我現在就是要講給你聽哪！"],["林主任委員峯正：那現在這種用人頭的不行……"],["李委員柏毅：中國國民黨主席來跟官派的臺北市長、臺北市的國宅處說要買，那這個價錢怎麼會合理？"],["林主任委員峯正：在當時當然有計算的基礎，因為那是在40年前的事情，我們現在要如何去還原到40年前說這個地方是買便宜了，這個我們是不好說，如果沒有很明確的證據，很難這樣子去說，但是現在法院卻跑出這樣的見解，說你要去證明他買便宜了，如果你沒有辦法證明他買便宜了，這種就不算。"],["李委員柏毅：所以在這邊要建議不當黨產委員會對相關的這些土地估價、歷史等等的，還是要趕快積極地去找出這一些可以支持你的理由，在未來上訴的過程裡面可以為所有臺灣人民的財產做一些正當的防衛。"],["林主任委員峯正：謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：接下來其實有一個很重要的部分，就是我曾經跟高雄市政府去過西班牙，那西班牙也有一個轉型正義的遺址，那我對於不當黨產委員會出國考察的事情必須要在這裡表達支持，因為你沒有去到這些國家，你沒有辦法想像這些國家歷經過去這些威權的時代所面對的所有問題，現在搞不好臺灣還是非常落後，如果沒有讓我們的基層文官或者是不當黨產委員會負責處理的這些同仁們實際看到國外的這些狀況，他們也很難放手去做，所以除了在這邊表達支持以外，也希望不管是各委員會，包含不當黨產等等，包含我剛剛講的原民會，在做這些國外考察交流的時候，其實也都是在讓國際看到臺灣，希望黨產會要持續的去做這些相關的取經。"],["林主任委員峯正：好，謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請盧縣一委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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主委這個阿剛剛有委員質詢有提到啦就是我們原住民族的姓氏常常在婦人事務所或什麼阿這個阿打不出來字阿或什麼很多原因阿造成我們這個姓氏的登記出了一些問題是不是是那有沒有想到有什麼辦法解決"},{"start":32.486,"end":41.752,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":57.027,"end":71.706,"text":"我們原住民族語言研究發展基金會我們花了錢我們有做了原住民族語輸入法跟建制原住民族姓氏資料庫馬耀董事長是不是有這件事"},{"start":76.045,"end":103.858,"text":"跟委員說明是我們已經有研發完成研發完成對我再請教一下你說研發完成我們有處理這一塊對研發完成可以上線了沒有上線有提供在線上有做這種的服務來那鄭主委那有這一套系統我們有沒有去跟戶政事務所說我們有這套系統我們大家一起來看怎麼去使用"},{"start":105.137,"end":122.848,"text":"有,有,我們跟內政部都有一起來辦訓練什麼時候開始?從去年就已經開始在希望不是,什麼時候開始?然後有沒有跟復甄事務所大家說這套怎麼去使用?有沒有?"},{"start":124.87,"end":133.56,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":141.329,"end":144.131,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":160.2,"end":165.584,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":182.421,"end":205.65,"text":"不是啊,我現在問曾主委,你們有沒有跟護證事務所開過會?你剛跟我說有啊有,跟護證人員的教育訓練有做過教育訓練那是,我說有沒有很正式的跟護證事務所,跟護證師齁這個還沒有,這個還沒有還沒有對嘛,你剛跟我回答以後我嚇一跳啊,因為我手頭上的資料就還沒有啊對不對"},{"start":206.77,"end":222.044,"text":"我要說的是你這套系統花了這麼多錢了應該要很正式的跟內政部我們有這套系統不然我忠實無所的同仁我怎麼知道我怎麼去使用我怎麼知道有這一套我覺得花了錢就要去用啦好不好"},{"start":222.785,"end":227.949,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":246.403,"end":248.985,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":265.4,"end":286.254,"text":"這個我們這個國立的原住民族這一個博物館然後跟我們的文化發展中心這個我們跟地方的全國29個原住民的博物館我們未來有沒有什麼合作或什麼互相提升的計畫"},{"start":287.981,"end":313.999,"text":"因為這個博物館我想跟我們地方29座的地方文化館還有我們文化園區的這個園區當然我們要有能夠合作因為未來的博物館它即便是策展即便是很多的這個展覽也必須要借助地方文化館跟原住民文化園區的文物還有人員所以我們已經在做一個希望未來怎麼樣來合作"},{"start":315.395,"end":342.803,"text":"我覺得啦我手頭上的你們自己的資料你們文化文化發展中心給地方的文化館一年補助一億一千六百一十六萬一年補助這麼多那未來我們這個國立的博物館我們應該是要一個架構一個最高然後地方的我們有那麼多不同的族群不同的族如何發展特色"},{"start":343.868,"end":355.351,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":365.486,"end":372.73,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":389.5,"end":396.067,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":404.955,"end":409.717,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":426.277,"end":433.824,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":448.598,"end":453.762,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":470.254,"end":487.013,"text":"曾主委您留下那個民主委你們也去歐洲也去什麼考察過很多啦但一樣的在台灣我們原住民他們從整個文化這樣這樣過來他們其實也受了很多不公不義的事情啊有沒有"},{"start":487.834,"end":513.419,"text":"因為本會主要是不當當場不是啦我不是要問你了有沒有當然有啊有嘛那你們去國外有考察過很多博物館是那裡面有很多這一些有你們可不可以把資料給他們參考一下我是要問你這個啦我們可以順便注意一下這是OK的啦這是OK吧你們去考察那麼多我覺得錢都花了這些資料應該共享吧可以可以可以嘛齁曾主委是"},{"start":514.119,"end":516.621,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時3分）我先請曾主委跟馬耀．谷木董事長。"],["主席：請曾主委跟董事長。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，剛剛有委員質詢時也有提到，我們原住民族的姓氏常常在戶政事務所打不出字來，或有什麼很多原因，造成姓氏的登記出了一些問題，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：有沒有想到有什麼辦法解決？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們現在已經把怎麼樣命名的手冊，希望能夠很快地讓各戶政事務所第一線的同仁知道，因為這個確實有時候不是故意的，是一種誤會，是誤會了啦，因為原住民的命名，各族有其一定的方式，所以造成誤會，真的也是很抱歉啦。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得原住民族語言研究發展基金會花了錢，做了原住民族語輸入法跟建置原住民族姓氏資料庫，馬耀董事長，是不是有這件事？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員說明，是，我們已經研發完成。"],["張委員宏陸：研發完成？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：對，就是在……"],["張委員宏陸：我再請教一下，你說研發完成……"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：就是我們的研究有處理這一塊，前階段前面的……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，對，研發完成，可以上線了沒？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：有，有上線，有提供在線上做這種服務。"],["張委員宏陸：來，曾主委，有這一套系統，我們有沒有去跟戶政事務所說有這套系統，大家一起來看怎麼去使用？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們跟內政部都有一起辦訓練。"],["張委員宏陸：有？什麼時候開始？"],["曾主任委員智勇：從去年就已經開始希望……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，什麼時候開始？然後有沒有跟戶政事務所說這一套怎麼去使用，有沒有？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員說明，因為這個是在防範歧視……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，你就先回答我的問題嘛，有沒有跟戶政事務所他們……"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：我們有做改正版（精進版），就是年底會做一個更完整的、借重過去的……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，回答我的重點嘛！有沒有跟戶政事務所共同開過幾次會，告知他們有這套系統，大家一起共享，然後跟戶政事務所的同仁講這一套該怎麼使用，有沒有跟戶政事務所開過幾次會？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，他們的這個系統，我們還沒有用到。"],["張委員宏陸：你剛剛不是說「有」？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們有跟內政部戶政事務所開會，也希望他們能夠……因為發生那兩件事情之後，我們希望……"],["張委員宏陸：不不，我現在要問的重點是，你跟他開過幾次會？有沒有？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員報告，我們是跟原民會這邊……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我現在問曾主委，你們有沒有跟戶政事務所開過會，你剛剛跟我說「有」啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，跟戶政人員的教育訓練有做過。"],["張委員宏陸：教育訓練那是另一回事，我是問有沒有很正式的跟戶政事務所、跟戶政司……"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個還沒有。"],["張委員宏陸：還沒有嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！你剛剛跟我回答「有」，我嚇一跳，因為我手頭上的資料就還沒有，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有。"],["張委員宏陸：我要說的是，你這一套系統花了這麼多錢了，應該要很正式的跟內政部說，我們有這套系統，不然我戶政事務所的同仁怎麼知道如何去使用，我怎麼知道有這一套？我覺得花了錢就要去用啦，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。好。"],["張委員宏陸：你如果說還在測試階段，要到年底還是什麼時候的話，那你現在去規劃要怎麼跟戶政事務所去處理，這個可以解決很多問題嘛，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：戶政事務所的同仁也不是故意的，對不對？就是對文化，然後可能他對一些字也拼不出來或什麼的，我覺得你們花了這麼多錢，就正式的跟戶政事務所講，這樣以後就沒有這個問題了，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["張委員宏陸：好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你們就去跟他講，正式的開會，正式的協調，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["張委員宏陸：錢都花了。再來，國立原住民族博物館跟原住民文化發展中心以及全國29座地方原住民博物館，未來有沒有什麼合作或互相提升的計畫？"],["曾主任委員智勇：國立原住民族博物館跟我們29座地方文化館，還有我們的文化園區，當然我們要能夠合作，因為未來的博物館，即便是策展，即便是很多的展覽，也必須要藉助地方文化館跟原住民文化園區的文物還有人員，所以我們已經在做一個規劃，希望未來怎麼樣來合作。"],["張委員宏陸：就我手頭上你們自己提供的資料，你們文化發展中心給地方的文化館一年補助1億1,616萬……"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：一年補助這麼多，未來我們這個國立博物館，應該要有一個最高的架構，然後地方的，我們有那麼多不同的族群（不同的族）要思考如何發展特色，對不對？我覺得要以做生意的角度，你如果是以開博物館的心態，我都不管它，反正虧錢是政府虧，對不對？我覺得不對。要思考如何吸引人家去，我要強調一件事，所有原住民的文化都是活的，它不是考古的，是可以讓人民去體驗的，民眾體驗過，有興趣的會再去，我覺得這部分要有一套啊。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。跟委員報告，你剛剛講的一億多，我們最主要是用在地方文化館的策展人員，就是人的薪水，還有園區在做博物館服務的這些人員的訓練等等，剛剛委員講的就是希望未來怎麼樣來合作，我們會儘早，其實現在我們已經在討論未來要怎麼樣分工，是不是參考外國的博物館都有……"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，不要一天到晚說什麼這些，實際上就是有補助，有補助就應該要求，大家是一個共同體，我覺得你要有一個角度去處理事情，對不對？這樣子才是對的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。對。"],["張委員宏陸：然後平埔族，雖然現在有一些事情大家在討論，但平埔族的文化、平埔族的祭典，我不知道主委你熟不熟？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我參加過幾場平埔族的文化祭典，不一樣，因為一樣在屏東、在高雄也有平埔族，都一樣……"],["張委員宏陸：我的意思是說，都不一樣啦，不一樣，這種文化要不要留存？"],["曾主任委員智勇：要。"],["張委員宏陸：要嘛，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以，我才說你的地方原民館要有特色，要每個不一樣，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。是。對。"],["張委員宏陸：主席，我再請一下不當黨產的林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["張委員宏陸：你不要走，不要走，我沒有叫你走。"],["主席：曾主委請留下。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：林主委，你們也去歐洲很多地方考察過很多，但一樣的在臺灣我們原住民整個文化這樣過來，他們其實也遭受了很多不公不義的事情，有沒有？"],["林主任委員峯正：因為本會主要是不當黨產……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我不是要問黨產會的事。有沒有？"],["林主任委員峯正：當然有。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛。你們去國外有考察過很多博物館，那裡面有很多這一些？"],["林主任委員峯正：是。有。"],["張委員宏陸：你們可不可以把資料給他們參考一下。我只要問你這個啦。"],["林主任委員峯正：我們可以順便注意一下，這是OK的。"],["張委員宏陸：這是OK的吧，你們去考察那麼多，我覺得錢都花了，這些資料應該共享吧？"],["林主任委員峯正：OK，可以、可以。"],["張委員宏陸：可以嘛。","曾主委，要跟林主委要這一些，他花那麼多錢去歐洲考察，你們不用考察就可以拿那麼多資料啦。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["張委員宏陸：可以作為你們的博物館的營運或其他方面的參考，好不好？可以齁？謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。可以。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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剛剛主委提到的嘛可能主要的都是會刊的工作或者是一些應該是要提出有關原民會的政策相關的問題嘛那您剛剛提到我想很多委員都有提到事實上這些族群委員很多都在討婚傷喜慶啊那尤其剛剛您提到的這族群委員的推薦人有委員在請教你推薦人結果你說是物質的表示這份名單當中推薦人您看一下有哪些是物質的哪些不是"},{"start":424.206,"end":426.407,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":451.479,"end":472.671,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員"},{"start":480.964,"end":483.666,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":499.882,"end":501.204,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":522.544,"end":532.507,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":551.993,"end":562.476,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":572.418,"end":593.99,"text":"他下鄉再回到會裡算那請把相關的資料提供給他到底下鄉去哪裡了因為你們族群委員有可能根本不住在這個你們跟你們原民會所在的地方所以他只要來開會是不是就可以出差這相關的資料然後另外再請教您就是有關這個族群委員的健康檢查如果要做健康檢查應該是要請什麼假"},{"start":599.822,"end":612.126,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":626.863,"end":637.329,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":660.343,"end":663.509,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1468,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（12時17分）謝謝主席，請黨產會林峯正主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委好。我想請教一下主委，因為過往政府宣傳的經費都偏重於特定媒體，已經引起大家注意，所以卓院長在9月16號接受媒體訪問的時候有說，如果真的有標案集中在一些廠商的問題，他會特別的重視。他也曾經提到，如果真的過度集中在某幾個廠商，那不是廠商的問題，那是政府的問題，未來也不允許這樣的情況發生。可是本席看了一下不當黨產委員會歷年來有關媒體宣傳費的狀況，發現到110年奇妙時光電影有限公司以臺幣95萬元標得不當黨產系列影展及在地導覽的勞務採購案，111年同樣又是奇妙時光，以新臺幣74萬元標得111年度不當黨產之和解影展及在地導覽的勞務採購案，112年第2季又拿到不當黨產宣傳影片的製作，第3季又再獲得貴會的青睞。黨產會的宣傳影片這幾年大多數都是由奇妙時光電影公司得標，或者是指定由他們執行，請問會不會過於集中？全臺灣只有這家公司可以做得好嗎？為什麼要一而再、再而三的委託給他們？"],["林主任委員峯正：其實黨產的內容有一定的門檻，所以一般廠商要來標的意願沒有很高。當然委員有注意到，在今年就下降了非常多，你看今年我們就剩下11萬跟3萬。"],["許委員宇甄：下降非常多的原因是什麼？"],["林主任委員峯正：我們也覺得不要太集中，可以分散就分散。"],["許委員宇甄：表示之前確實有太集中的問題。"],["林主任委員峯正：我們盡量把它分散，但是這個議題確實門檻有點高，所以一般廠商……"],["許委員宇甄：是不是可以請主委提供這幾年執行成果的報告給本委員會參考？好嗎？"],["林主任委員峯正：可以，沒有問題。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，剛剛主委特別提到，卓院長也特別提到，所以請主委要特別重視這個問題，不要陷卓院長於不義。","另外，我再請教你一下，黨產會在113年度編列了42萬5,000元的預算，進行出國考察歐洲國家處理不當黨產，因為計畫中只有寫到歐洲國家，對具體考察跟學習的內容都沒有提到，完全如同公費旅遊的藉口。主委，歐洲有哪些國家像我國有處理黨產的經驗？"],["林主任委員峯正：我們主要考察的對象其實是中、東歐的國家。"],["許委員宇甄：哪幾個國家？"],["林主任委員峯正：我們最早的黨產處理模型其實是以德國為模型，但是受過共產黨統治相關經驗的，有這種處理經驗的有波蘭、捷克、匈牙利，西班牙有部分……"],["許委員宇甄：請問你們有去過帛琉嗎？"],["林主任委員峯正：我們去帛琉是為了要許可國民黨處分中投公司子公司的資產，因為國民黨申請，我們要審查，它要賣掉帛琉大飯店，所以我們得去看，那是幾年前……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛主委你特別提到這幾個歐洲國家都有這樣的經驗，可是我們看了一下行程，很多都是參訪當地的遺址，這個跟黨產會相關業務有什麼關係？"],["林主任委員峯正：處理黨產沒有辦法跟轉型正義割裂，黨產處理的緣由就是因為要做轉型正義，你不了解轉型正義的背景內涵，你沒有辦法處理……"],["許委員宇甄：所以要去參觀遺址，就是在當地的名勝遺址？"],["林主任委員峯正：這個是轉型正義裡面的一部分。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下針對轉型遺址的部分，你們從107年到112年已經參訪這麼多國家，請問你們有借鏡到什麼有關轉型正義或者是不當黨產有什麼具體結果嗎？"],["林主任委員峯正：譬如說，西班牙的佛朗哥好了，我們就會去看它的遺址，佛朗哥可能在街道上有很多的銅像，然後西班牙政府它們就立法處理這些雕像或者他的墳墓這類的東西，進一步它會牽涉到財產的使用問題。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，這跟不當黨產有什麼關係？聽起來好像就是旅遊行程，我如果去西班牙，我也會去看那些地方啊！"],["林主任委員峯正：我們的出國報告全部都在網站上面。"],["許委員宇甄：請主委是不是也提供相關的報告？"],["林主任委員峯正：好，全部的連結都沒有問題。"],["許委員宇甄：好。另外就是立法院在去年都已經提出嚴正的批評，各國的轉型正義模式差異極大，如果沒有具體的研究方向，這樣的考察是毫無意義，但今年度就完全繼續編列相關的預算？"],["林主任委員峯正：正因為各國的狀況差異極大，我剛剛有說，讀萬卷書行萬里路，在家看網站跟書籍，它的資料跟現在現地的狀況其實是有落差的，因為各國的狀況不一樣，所以必須要去看；如果各國都一樣，那就看一國就好。"],["許委員宇甄：我不是說不能去看，我的意思是說要怎麼樣是跟不當黨產有關、跟轉型正義有關……"],["林主任委員峯正：我剛剛已經說明過了。"],["許委員宇甄：這個跟黨產會的應辦業務差異太大，所以相關預算的話，我們也會進行檢討，謝謝。"],["林主任委員峯正：謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：接下來請原民會曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：曾主委，我很想跟您請教有關族群委員的問題，剛剛很多委員都有提到，因為113年度有編列2,167萬，114年度又編列2,247萬，總共有16位族群委員，平均每一位可以領多少錢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：你說一年嗎？135萬。"],["許委員宇甄：好，135萬，就是一個族群委員可以領的薪水。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，一個族群委員一年。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我們可以看得到這些族群委員的工作，請問是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：主要是我們派出去做外部的會議，第一個。第二個，有一些工程還有土地的會勘，還有就是參加各種活動，尤其是有一些縣跟鄉拜託我們要去做協調的部分，他們也可以做這樣的……"],["許委員宇甄：對，剛剛主委提到的，可能主要都是會勘的工作，或者是一些……應該是要提出有關於原民會政策相關的問題，那您剛剛提到，我想很多委員都有提到，事實上這些族群委員很多都在跑婚喪喜慶，尤其剛剛您提到這些族群委員的推薦人，有委員請教你推薦人，結果你說是誤植的，表示這份名單當中的推薦人，您看一下有哪些是誤植的？哪些不是？這個資料是你們提供的喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：伍麗華委員的部分有一些確實是誤植。"],["許委員宇甄：那剛剛伍麗華委員罵你，你就說是誤植的；那陳瑩委員現在不在，陳瑩委員現在在這邊，那陳瑩委員如果沒有講，陳瑩委員的就是正確的嗎？沒有誤植嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：我第一天協商就有說誤植了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：他沒有……"],["許委員宇甄：對啊！是誤植嘛！對不對？所以……"],["陳委員瑩：我是說協商的時候就有講……"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個資料是你們提供的嗎？那既然是你們提供的話，這個部分到底哪些是誤植的，你是不是要讓我們清楚？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們來修正好不好？"],["許委員宇甄：最重要的是，這些族群委員你們是怎麼聘任的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，這個名單可以是自薦，也可以是民族議會推薦，也可以透過委員來推薦。"],["許委員宇甄：中間有一個是自薦的，您看一下鄭廷萱，本席看了這一次族群委員的名單，獲聘者大部分都是黨政背景雄厚，要不然就是民族議會推薦，唯有卡那卡那富族的鄭廷萱是自我推薦，他現職是護理助理，請問一下為什麼他會獲選？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員講，卡那卡那富族的族群委員後來沒有來報到。"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為他自己家裡有一些事情，他沒有辦法來報到。"],["許委員宇甄：對，他沒有來報到是因為他家裡有些事情，並不是你們叫他不要來報到的，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對、對、對。"],["許委員宇甄：好，既然這樣，他當時為什麼會獲選？他是屏東醫院的護理助理，所以表示說你們在遴選這些族群委員確實有很大的爭議，為什麼有那麼多的委員會提到這筆預算，其實我們現在已經出委員會了，就是要把他改為無給職的，當然為什麼要把他改為無給職，就覺得他沒有功能嘛！甚至我還看到之前族群委員的一些相關資料……"],["曾主任委員智勇：他有功能哦！委員。"],["許委員宇甄：我想請教一下，族群委員到本會開會算出差嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不算。"],["許委員宇甄：不算，這個是你們提供的資料寫出差，到本會開會寫出差喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：不算，下鄉才算。"],["許委員宇甄：不算？但是你們的資料是族群委員到你們自己本會開會，你都寫出差。"],["陳主任榮宏：報告委員，那個是因為他那一週是下鄉，然後他再回到會裡面來開會。"],["許委員宇甄：他下鄉再回到會裡算，請把他到底下鄉去哪裡的相關資料提供。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["許委員宇甄：因為你們族群委員有可能根本不住在你們原民會所在的地方，所以他只要來開會是不是就可以算出差等相關的資料。"],["陳主任榮宏：不是。"],["許委員宇甄：然後另外再請教您有關族群委員如果要做健康檢查應該是要請什麼假？"],["陳主任榮宏：基本上的話要可以請公假，就是……"],["許委員宇甄：做健康檢查可以請公假？"],["陳主任榮宏：就是公務員的部分，他就是有每年……就是要看他的歲數，滿40歲的話就可以請公假1天。"],["許委員宇甄：所以族群委員做健康檢查可以請公假？是不是能夠把相關的法令提供給本席？"],["陳主任榮宏：OK。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["許委員宇甄：所以在這個部分要麻煩主委，因為族群委員一年你們編列兩千多億的預算，如果他沒有辦法真正達到功能的話……"],["曾主任委員智勇：兩千多萬，不是兩千多億。"],["許委員宇甄：兩千多萬。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["許委員宇甄：如果他沒有真正的達到功能的話，本席也是建議這個部分一定要幫國家節省公帑，絕對不能做這樣的浪費，以上，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員黃仁、高金素梅、丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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2.728,"end":689.311,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":704.835,"end":706.817,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":723.897,"end":752.695,"text":"那我想是這樣子因為時間不夠然後我只是就是說最近這你們盤點可能只是最近8年的那我希望把過去的所有的都整理出來那我想這樣子分析也去盤點檢查一下看看裡面分析那個原因不是只有數字而已幾家幾家那個雖然很重要但是我想原因是更重要那你要去看一下裡面有沒有做了又倒倒了又做"},{"start":753.095,"end":754.597,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":768.131,"end":781.219,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":796.641,"end":821.259,"text":"我們會這樣,我們會跟照委的意見來做好,那至於最後那個少編2萬齁,剛剛說禁法補償,有委員說少編2萬這個很容易讓族人誤解,大家都焦慮了很久,然後也一直罵執政黨我們並沒有因為這個公務預算的編列而讓大家少領2萬元主委你這個要講清楚,你9月我就說6萬就是6萬"},{"start":823.18,"end":830.401,"text":"至於怎麼編的我想這個是大家在這裡意見不同領到的就是6萬元嘛不要這樣嚇唬人家嘛"},{"start":832.779,"end":858.706,"text":"所以主委你要在這邊讓你這個30秒重新講一次就是預算是4萬那也可以從基金公務預算是4萬然後基金可以補2萬那就是加起來就是6萬以前就是循這樣的例來做那麼卓院長更有誠意的就是說跟立法院院長還有各位委員協調結果是"},{"start":860.146,"end":866.368,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":890.606,"end":890.93,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1419,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時2分）謝謝主席，麻煩請主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["陳委員瑩：其實我的質詢本來沒有想要講這一題，但是伍麗華委員特別提到原民會組織法，有兩位原住民委員破天荒的提案要刪除族群委員薪水的這件事情，我想我也發表一些意見。確實在索資的部分以及推薦人的部分，我後來去看了你們的資料，還真的是非常的不精確，但是有寫對的地方，也有寫不對的地方，我又回頭仔細的去看了一下，因為上次我們在協商的時候，有委員對於有族群委員曾經擔任過誰誰誰的服務處助理的資歷很有意見，結果我認真一看，我就看到了，也有擔任過委員的助理或是擔任過議員的人去做了族群委員，但是那個年代，我們都沒有提案去刪掉族群委員的薪水，因為我也認識這一位前族群委員、這位老議員，他人很好，所以我對他沒有意見。","再來，我又認真的再看了一下，我還看到這次族群委員的推薦名單，推薦人鄭天財委員，他也有推薦，但是很奇怪的，高金委員在唸推薦人的時候，卻省略了鄭天財委員的名字不唸，只唸到他看到的人，可能看到伍麗華的名字他就會跳起來。所以這個部分，我只是覺得委員的權力不是拿來這樣濫用的，我們今天可以針對制度來做檢討，但是如果因為不是你們自己的人馬或者不是你理想的推薦人選，你就要大刀一揮的把人家的薪水砍掉，我想你砍掉的不是只有薪水而已，而是砍掉了整個原住民的尊嚴，也侮辱了你自己手上的權力，所以我必須要在這裡提出這些意見。","當然，過去也有族群委員大剌剌的去歡迎陳雲林到臺灣來，這些奇奇怪怪的事情，為什麼他們自己都不講？只不過是因為這一屆的族群委員不是他們心目中的理想人選，可能這些族群委員不會拿著布條去歡迎中國的官員來到臺灣，難道只是這樣嗎？","而且上次在協商的發言，大家去提了一些奇奇怪怪的案例，像是去參加婚喪喜慶，我想如果主委分身乏術，偶爾指派別人去參加婚喪喜慶，應該也是情有可原，就像我們的助理會代表我們去參加婚喪喜慶一樣，但一定不是每天這樣。這一次的族群委員我有認識幾位，他們都相當的優秀，把那些奇奇怪怪的案例拿出來，我覺得對他們而言是很嚴重的侮辱耶！主委，你應該要站出來替他們講話，從提名到現在才多久時間？一個多月？"],["曾主任委員智勇：一個多月。"],["陳委員瑩：他們參加上百場的會議了，不是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["陳委員瑩：做了很多的事情，這些你都要拿出來告訴大家啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：他們的表現也都很好，目前還不到一個月，不管是陳情案也好，不管是到外部去開會也好，還有去現場的工程會勘也好，統統都表現得還不錯。我們在來之前，9月我們有先跟他們做行前教育，我覺得有一些本來就經驗很豐富，可能本來就是某某議員，他當過縣議員，也當過鄉民代表，他本來就可以獨當一面，所以我們覺得他們來幫了我們很多、很多的忙。"],["陳委員瑩：而且有些也擔任過記者，也接受過非常高的教育，學歷也很高，經驗也很豐富，我想很多的指控對這些人來說都是侮辱！我再次呼籲，立法委員的權力不是這樣用的。","接下來進入一些重要的問題。我要特別再請社福處，9月21日的時候，我在院會的總質詢有提出，因為不論是巷弄長照站或者是文健站，這些照服員的薪資已經5年沒有調整了，當時我有要求行政院明年一定要為照服員加薪。長照的經費是在衛福部，我也知道原民會要去跟衛福部談照服員加薪的事情，有時候溝通上是很困難的，所以10月9日我在衛環委員會也有特別替你們去要求衛福部，應該要主動來找原民會討論明年所有照服員加薪3%的事情，他們有沒有去找你們？"],["羅處長赫踛：有，10月16日。"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以你們這一次談的結果如何？3%可不可行？"],["羅處長赫踛：最近大概跟長照司司長有談過，他們目前是比以前鬆動一點，但是現在在簽核中，有結果之後會再通知委員。"],["陳委員瑩：簽核中，看起來機率是大的，因為已經在簽核中了，那我們就靜待這個好消息。","我另外也要請教文處、原文會跟原語會。上個會期我也有在這裡跟原文會討論到原文會薪資結構的問題，當時我有提到，軍公教已經調薪14%了，而原文會從開始到現在，只有在2022年的時候調薪4%而已，所以我就主張原文會應該要補齊不足的10%。當時你們只有說明年可能調薪8%，所以5月份在這邊討論之後，行政院在7月有公布明年軍公教將調薪3%，換句話說，依照本席之前的主張，10%再加上明年的3%，原文會明年應該要調薪13%才對。原文會裡面大部分都是我們的族人，我也希望原文會對於族人不要那麼吝嗇，大器一點，原文會的薪資水準確實低於你們的同業很多，所以你們今年的預算裡面，調薪的部分到底是怎麼編列的？"],["陳處長坤昇：報告委員，有關原文會的部分，在明年度已經有編列8%調薪的預算，至於原語會的部分，我們也委請他們在明年度我們捐助的人事費裡面用8%來做調整，至於委員……"],["陳委員瑩：因為5月在這邊已經有說了，我主張就是10%，還比較客氣一點講10%而已，因為後來7月行政院又加了3%，原民會、原文會及原語會應該要提早因應，就是要跟著一起調整。送來的預算書加加減減，你要跟上腳步，其實就是13%，現在你們只有編8%，原文會也是又少了5%，我不曉得該怎麼辦！因為我記得那時候我們在質詢是鍾興華副主委在這裡備詢，他代表主委敬表同意調薪，他都很樂觀，禁伐補償，他也是說樂觀其成，果然我們有達成目標，所以這個部分現在少5%，你們怎麼辦？"],["陳處長坤昇：這個部分我們在後續年度來規劃，逐年把它補齊，可以嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：就是追上腳步的意思？"],["陳處長坤昇：是。"],["陳委員瑩：不是不行，只是這個牽扯到年終，對不對？"],["陳處長坤昇：是。"],["陳委員瑩：累積前面少的部分，你如果願意一併計算進去，我也願意、同意後面慢慢追上，所以這個部分要一併列入考慮。"],["陳處長坤昇：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：原文會的部分也是相同。剛剛講原文會了，我要替原語會講話了，董事長，你們是完全沒有加薪，對不對？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：是，跟委員說明，我們有……"],["陳委員瑩：那怎麼辦？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：有積極跟指導機關原民會表達我們的意願。"],["陳委員瑩：不是你們的意願，而是要強烈表達你們的差距，好不好？不是你們的意願，每個人都想加薪，但是你們確實嚴重落後，這個部分主委是不是可以列入重要的事項辦理？"],["陳處長坤昇：我個人9月份到教文處報告，已經跟原語會做了這樣的提醒，雖然明年度沒有編列加薪預算，可是我們給他的人事費是夠的，所以請他們可以在明年度的預算裡面，也一樣比照加薪的標準來調整他們的薪水。"],["陳委員瑩：這個是好的方向，也希望後面都可以追上腳步。請回座。","另外，我要請主委跟經發處。原民會長期是以U-start原漾計畫，還有創新研發計畫、百萬創業計畫等方式，補助、扶助原住民的企業，希望協助企業在創業初期提高企業競爭力，創造企業經營實力。但是我想要請教處長，這8年來提供原住民族企業的補助統計有將近9億元，你們有沒有檢討一下過去扶植的這些原住民企業目前經營的情況？我知道文斌在經發處有待很久的時間，你應該也很了解。有哪些原住民的企業是經過原民會協助之後，經營狀況非常好的？有哪些企業沒有做出成績？或者有一些狀況就是穩定打平？有些則是經營不善倒店關門的？因為我們投入了這些資源，應該要追蹤他們的經營狀況，有沒有做過盤點或統計？"],["王處長瑞盈：以百萬創業為例，104年到113年補助了199家，目前存活的是177家，存活率是百分之八十八點多……"],["陳委員瑩：你滿意這個存活率嗎？"],["王處長瑞盈：一般來講，在臺灣的中小企業存活年限大概8年到10年之間，所以這一個數字看起來是還可以的。另外，績效經營良好在補助創新研發部分，彪騰虎公司去年的營業額有到達3,750萬，績效算是還可以。"],["陳委員瑩：你們盤點的可能只是最近8年，我希望把過去所有的都整理出來，也去盤點、檢查一下並分析原因，不是只有數字而已，幾家、幾家雖然很重要，但是我想原因更重要。你也要去看一下，裡面有沒有做了又倒、倒了又做，又來申請的單位或申請人，這些原因再麻煩你們盤點。","最後要提醒，因為綜合發展基金過去都是用補助的方式，在企業種子發展時期提供資金的協助，但是綜合發展基金不會因為一直去補助而獲利，所以我希望未來原住民的綜合發展基金應該加入投資的方式。我希望這個部分，你們可以慎重考慮，因為這樣的話，未來我們在分潤的時候也可以有收入，不知道主委意見如何？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們會照委員的意見來做。"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛有委員說禁伐補償少編兩萬，這個很容易讓族人誤解，大家都焦慮了很久，也一直罵執政黨，我們並沒有因為公務預算的編列而讓大家少領兩萬元。主委，這個要講清楚！9月我就說6萬就是6萬，至於怎麼編的，我想是大家在這裡意見不同，領到的就是6萬元，不要這樣嚇唬人家。主委在這邊，給你30秒重新講一次。"],["曾主任委員智勇：預算是4萬，也可以從基金再擴充。"],["陳委員瑩：公務預算是4萬！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，公務預算是4萬，然後基金可以補2萬，加起來就是6萬。以前就是循這樣的例來做，那麼卓院長更有誠意的跟立法院院長還有各位委員協調，結果是願意用追加減預算，全部編列在預算裡面。"],["陳委員瑩：所以不管怎麼編，各位符合資格的人，戶頭領到了就是6萬元，從這6萬元裡面，你也看不出來多少錢是基金、多少錢是公務預算，反正你就是領6萬就對了！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe委員：（11時46分）謝謝主席，有請原民會主委。"],["主席：好，請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好，dliavadiavay。每一次原民會來內政委員會備詢或是做業務報告，我其實都滿開心的，因為我們原住民的立委有一個特權，就是可以好好地問到底。所以我今天也準備了很多過去我關心並且想要瞭解後續進度如何的問題，因為每一項其實都攸關我們原住民族的權益。","首先我想要瞭解一下，因為這次的院會總質詢我有特別問卓榮泰院長，國土計畫法即將在明年上路，我們會遇到一個很重大的問題，那就是許多過去用地不合法的，經過國土計畫法，土地合法了之後，他們就要去縣市政府申請合法建物的登記，但是很多人會面臨到：原來我的房子要合法要花這麼多錢！甚至有的都一百多萬。非常謝謝，會後卓院長有裁示，原民會也提供了一個不錯的方法給國土署，就是讓這些既有的建物可以借用保存登記的概念去做舊有房屋的申請。我在這邊說：謝謝！但是新的問題又來了，這個要請原民會來處理。我以前也質詢過好幾次，一直沒有回應、沒有結果。那就是我們好多族人跟我講說：委員，可不可以質詢原民會？以前的原住民國宅很好耶！為什麼沒有了？","我去查，原來是曾經發生過一些訴訟，原民會要背這個責任，說實在也很辛苦，但我們總是要向前看啊！因為這攸關族人的權益，所以這個部分我想要瞭解，到底有沒有進度？很多人常常問我。哪一位可以回答我？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，自從住宅法公布施行之後，已經沒有國宅政策，只有社會住宅，所以現在推的都是社會住宅。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：處長，這樣子我要怎麼交代？我質詢過好幾次，你們都跟我說會來研議，現在是預算會期，我就沒看到啊！"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，研議結果的確現在沒有國宅這個政策。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那你們不能用新興計畫嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：法令上已經沒有國宅這個政策了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那你用其他的名稱、新興計畫不行嗎？不能幫助我們的族人像以前一樣採用零利率嗎？不行嗎？我們不是一直在吵基金嗎？大家不是一直說凡經付出仍可收回，一直在講基金只能夠辦貸款！"],["劉處長維哲：委員講的基金應該是另外有關於……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以那些人解讀錯誤嘛！"],["劉處長維哲：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那可以做嗎？"],["王處長瑞盈：報告委員，綜發基金裡面是有列住宅貸款這個項目。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那去研議、研擬，這是我們族人講了十幾年非常在意的一個議題，我們就要想辦法好不好？這是我們原民會存在的價值好不好？又不是免費，只是恢復像以前一樣，協助他嘛！剛開始的幾年，不是信用保證作業要點也告訴我，在我多年的催生之下，不是年底也要公告了嗎？所以能不能夠幫助這些上路？我在財政委員會，原保地未來也可以去貸款了，因為你們原民會的信用保證作業要點、因為內政部所謂的鑑價系統，還有金管給銀行的ESG誘因，明年可以上路了，那麼這個部分可不可以來做？"],["王處長瑞盈：報告委員，我們會研議來處理這一塊。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，因為我問過很多次了，我希望我下一次問的時候真的有動好不好？謝謝。","第二個，我也想了解一下，5年一次的世界博覽會是全球大事，明年4月13日到10月13日為期半年，在日本大阪要上路了，我特別為了這件事，我把經濟部的國貿署還有外貿協會這個受委託單位，他們編了20億元要去日本大阪世博會做一個展覽館，但是我很關心有沒有原住民的展覽內容、有沒有原住民的商品展售、有沒有原住民的歌舞演出？沒有。後來我有協調，有會議紀錄了，我不曉得你們有沒有遵照？外貿協會有沒有來跟你們談？"],["陳處長坤昇：報告委員，有。不過我們現在的得到的答案，外貿協會說他們的場地不適合做樂舞的表演，說他們場地非常的小，我們現在還在跟……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們協調會的時候說是在外面。"],["陳處長坤昇：對，就是在外面，就是即便是在外面的場地都非常小。他說……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原民會不能妥協。"],["陳處長坤昇：我們沒有辦法妥協，可是現在就是在場地上，如果他們沒有辦法克服，我們沒有辦法去……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：外面。"],["陳處長坤昇：我們會再跟他協調，看他的場地怎麼做調整。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我覺得原民會存在的價值就是要捍衛原住民族的權益，我希望這個部分要堅持好不好？"],["陳處長坤昇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有問題再跟我說。","再來，我一直很關心的，疫情一開始爆發的時候，所有原住民部落不約而同，每一個部落在部落的門口都設立一個自主檢疫站，那是志工型的，所以我特別開了一個線上記者會，謝謝勞動部，他們立刻給我們開出叫做安心上工，每一個禮拜20個小時，用時薪，疫情期間幫助了很多的部落安心上工，疫情結束，有時候這個政策也會延續，但是我質詢過兩次，我認為為了促進我們原住民的地方就業、地方創生、人才回流，我有提過，部落那些洗腎的病患非常多，你們都比我清楚，他們每個禮拜洗腎3次，根本沒有辦法工作，也找不到工作，但是他們不是沒有能力工作，多少的青年，我們政府的政策叫他們回來種咖啡，叫他們回來做露營區，結果發現根本養不活太太、小孩，不久又回到都市地區。所以我常說我們應該要在部落開設一些像安心上工這種每個禮拜20小時，開給誰呢？部落可以去上文化課，我們的社區可以做彩繪，很多的工作可以幫助我們的部落變得更好，也讓這些人可以留在部落，我不曉得計畫名稱要叫什麼，都可以！我只是想要知道到底有沒有動靜？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，目前這個計畫，我們已經在研擬當中，而且它現在暫定的名稱叫做原地即時就業計畫。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以有？有編列經費嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以今年的預算書看得到嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們願意來爭取。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。","再來，我在第1會期院會總質詢，我有跟卓院長提到我們賴清德總統的政見，我希望原住民族學校法，至少要有一個原住民族學校的試辦計畫；我也提到部落公法人，在原住民自治法沒有完成之前，至少部落公法人也要趕快試辦上路。我也想問一下，有進度嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們明年至少要有一個地方來試辦。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：經費有編列嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。詳細的情形，因為時間的關係，我就不多問了。","再來，請教一下，我也很關心原保條例，我要再講一次，如果我當召委、如果我是黨團幹部，原住民的權益法案對我來講，最重要的就是原保條例，但是很可惜，原民會，行政院主動想推，始終打假球，大家天天都想要新增劃編土地分配，結果真正要解決根本的原保條例卻不處理，我希望原民會要拿出決心，現在禁伐補償過了，6萬元版本也是我提的，但是我其實想先處理原保條例，你們從上個屆期沒有成功，原保條例很重要啊！我要唸給大家聽，如果有在聽質詢的，要不然大家不知道它的重要。萬年租約可以解決，那些林保署很多非原住民的租約可以解決，借名登記可以解決，我們很多的教會、宗教團體取得土地登記可以解決，部落未來可以有公有的原保地做為部落公法人原住民自治推動的基礎啊！我們永久屋的基地、這些舊部落，我們都可以拿回來做增劃編，多麼重要的一部法啊！結果只想著趕快新增劃編，你前面根源都沒有準備好，我們後面在幹什麼，我們的土地一筆一筆在流失，已經流失一百年了，沒有多少土地，就像現在不到十分之一的人可以領禁伐補償，其中二分之一的人也不知道是誰，所以原民會要拿出決心。"],["杜張副主任委員梅莊：跟委員報告，原保條例我們預計在年底前會送到行政院……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，年底前喔！我們來看誰打假球。","主席，不好意思！我最後一題，跟我個人有關，所以我還是要講一下。其實我要問一下原民會，司法委員會已經把你們原民會的組織法審竣，也在上週三協商，雖然破局，要送院長黨團協商。我現在想要問，隔天我把你們叫到我辦公室，不得了啊！我說我也要索資，我要從第1屆華加志主委到夷將主委的，我也要索資，結果你們很誠實的告訴我拿不出來，因為以前的主委都是只有直接給決定的名單報行政院。曾智勇Ljaucu主委，你知不知道你是第一個真的在做審查的人啊？"],["曾主任委員智勇：知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你知道？那你知不知道你給出來的資料亂七八糟？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這點我們會檢討，我們提出來的這些資料有一些誤植了，對不起。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我講一下，我們以前也沒有人對這個有意見，就像網友看不下去，也幫我找，你看人家的委員，莫拉克風災他們還可以跟立委到中國見胡錦濤，而你們在搶災，我們如果要挖……但是沒有人會在意這個，因為這是主委的權利，我們只在意你們的遴選作業辦法、那些族群委員的工作內容，結果你看你們提供的資料，嚇死我了！竟然有阿美族──我根本不認識的人，他的推薦人寫伍麗華，這是有人要整我嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對不起，這是誤植了，跟委員抱歉，這個是誤植，我們內部會檢討。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我就跟你就事論事，審查機制沒有推薦人，連大法官自薦、推薦都還要跟他們切結，而且按照法律，蒐集個資的特定目的消失、已做完審查時，你要停止使用資料，結果你們還可以給出去，真的，你們的螺絲非常的鬆！我不知道該怎麼講，但是我要講一個重點，你們的1,700萬要準備被刪了，你們要把16個族群的主體性，有人要毀了，原民會要拿出態度、拿出決心，我們不要把個人的事情加諸在族群的尊嚴跟主體上，我希望你們要好好的想一想，整個荒腔走板，你們明明有聘用委員、派兼委員、聘兼委員，這一些聘用委員拿掉變成無給職之後，他還叫兼任委員嗎？然後他的工作內容要調整嗎？你們還讓人家給的資料唸出來，說他們只會參加婚喪喜慶！你們要好好做說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們以後改以車馬費、出席費支應，在協商以前，到我的辦公室提供，幫我算一下他們要完成那些工作內容要支應多少車馬費、出席費，麻煩算一下，我要知道每個人一個月要花多少錢。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果要改成裁掉你們的編制員額，法定是198人，現在只有166人，還沒有足額進用，如果你要派計畫型人力、約聘僱人員，也麻煩提報用人計畫，我說如果真的三讀通過被刪掉，這是歷史要記錄的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我想不要刪掉，因為這個是很重要，因為……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那你們要想辦法啊！想辦法啊！你們要去協商、要去談啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是、是、是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我言盡於此。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們會盡全力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，辛苦主委，謝謝主席。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：請陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張智倫","林倩綺","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","許宇甄","黃仁","丁學忠"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分；三、審查 114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金─原住民族綜合發展基金；\n四、審查原住民族委員會函送財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發\n展基金會114年度預算書案；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會單位預\n算","agenda_id":"1139601_00003"}}},{"id":"156655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69fce9be0177a2e1519bd36f72287d07ce1a12e40efa9c24bd3e7bc962e133d59975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:54:19 - 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月的時間會進行室內裝修的進度，再接下來我們就會採購電視廣播的設備……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你的意思是說，明年初的時候主體工程就會完工？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以主體工程還要花多少錢？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：應該剩下三億多。"],["牛委員煦庭：三億多，含室內裝修嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：沒有，沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有含室內裝修，所以你現在八億多，主體工程做完11億，你要花六億多做室內裝修喔？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：沒有，沒有，那是設備，電視跟攝影棚、燈光……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，既然現在的狀況顯然又跟你給預算中心的報告不一樣，那你就重新寫份報告吧！到底接下來的期程跟相關的開支是什麼，這一份就坦白從寬啦，誠實的寫，這樣大家……免得每一年你都被抓，你的預算執行數，你看上面第一年12%；然後第二年還比較合理98%；第三年又變10%；今年到現在為止36%，整個下來的執行率未達八成。如果執行有狀況的時候，你該重新編、該重新講清楚就要重新講清楚，這第一個。第二個，你相關的住宅配套，之前講你們董事有一些意見，當然從你們的工作來講，就要去妥善的溝通嘛！溝通完了沒？上次講離職可能會有兩成、三成，現在照這樣子搬到桃園之後，預計要離職人數有沒有降下來？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：據我們瞭解，整個我們在桃園的新會址、員工的福利配套，工會跟我們的討論是非常順暢，在上個月我們又再召開一次，總共召開了12次，員工全部移往桃園的意願是高的，是順利的。"],["牛委員煦庭：高是指多少？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們還要再做更細的問卷。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為最早的時候就是有兩成多，對不對？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：對，那個很少。"],["牛委員煦庭：接近三成，現在是多少？未來你的目標是多少？最好是一個都不要走嘛，對不對？難得的人才要留著嘛！"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：對，而且我們現在也正在培訓更多專業人才進來。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，會後一樣給本席一個報告，你的指標就是有沒有辦法達成嘛，方法是可以設計沒有錯，但是指標就是能不能走嘛，好不好？我們會繼續盯著。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：好的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，再來講一下原住民文化基金會，你們原民會編列捐助給原文會的項目，因為基金會你當然有預算，從公務預算來做提撥嘛，對不對？你捐助的項目裡面，明年的預算跟今年比起來，促進原住民族文化傳播跟教育權利的經費，明年的預算是三千三百多萬，比起今年是增加了一千四百二十六萬，你既然編在促進原住民文化傳播跟教育權利裡面，是不是這筆錢就應該要用來做文化傳播跟教育權利提升的相關業務？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：是嘛！你們有這樣編嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：有嗎？來，你看一下預算書，你從原民會支出撥給基金會，你的支出增加是不是多了一千多萬？我們現在來看原住民族文化事業基金會的支出項目的總表，你看，業務支出裡面行政管理支出，人事費多了一千多萬；業務費1億2,800變1億2,900；新聞業務的業務費3,600沒變；節目業務的業務費6,700沒變；製作工程業務費3,300沒變；文化行銷的業務費4,600變4,500還變少一點點，更可怕的是廣播業務，人事費增加2,000萬；業務費減少一千多萬快兩千萬。原民會給文化基金會的經費增加了一千四百多萬，講說要做文化傳播跟教育權利，結果看你的原民會文化事業的相關支出，所有的業務只減不增，然後人事費增加，這個名目是不是寫錯了，要不要說明一下？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：報告委員，我們廣播增加16個員額，主要原因是一開始開臺的時候沒有編足，現在原民會這邊要求我們能夠編足這些人事跟員額，所以才會出現這個部分的預算差異。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，前面你有來說明啦，就是不管是因應物價要加薪，或者是你要編足員額，這本席不是不能理解，但你科目要寫對啊！如果是人事費，它就應該是人事費，不是嗎？原民會的捐助，你也有單純捐助的項目嘛，或者你要講因應人事調整或保障勞工權益，你去這樣寫編進來，然後編人事費增加，大家沒話講嘛！可是你為什麼要寫在促進文化傳播跟教育權益的業務項目裡面呢？你這樣難道不會給人家感覺，表面上好像原民會增加了這部分的支出，結果實際上在貼補人事的缺額，你是在粉飾太平嗎？為什麼不做修正呢，你要不要說明一下？這是怎樣，你們財主單位會盯你們？監察院會看你們？所以你要這樣子乾坤大挪移，這樣好嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：感謝委員對於我們的人事費需求的支持，一千多萬的費用大部分都是人事費用，用來增加廣播人員的費用，因為過去原文會沒有加薪，所以在這一次8%的加薪，確實讓員工比較安心。"],["牛委員煦庭：我已經說了，我不會反對你調整人事費，我也不會反對你加薪，只要事情可以做好，但是你這邊講業務支出要增加的時候，相應來講文化傳播基金會業務沒有增加，這是不對的事情嘛！那你要我們怎麼處理這筆預算呢？這不是很奇怪嗎？"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：是，我們再做改進，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：再做改進？我不知道，反正我們預算審查時還可以討論，但是我不希望這種粉飾太平的事情再次發生，該是什麼就是什麼，哪一項名目就寫哪一項名目，把它寫清楚，把話講清楚就好了，好不好？請原民會要多加油，謝謝。"],["主席（李委員柏毅代）：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","我們請張宏陸召委進行詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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剛剛其實有委員提到說這個禁法補償是不是請你再明確說明一下其實在我們原本預算的編列裡就是打算編6萬對嗎"},{"start":20.215,"end":41.091,"text":"這個有關淨化補償因為歷年來都是預算跟我們的基金對列就是預算編一半我們的基金編一半然後來基金來運作所以歷年來都是這樣所以如果不用其他的經費我們一樣可以用我們的預算跟基金來來花放這個淨化補償"},{"start":43.243,"end":68.093,"text":"所以我覺得在這邊還是要再次澄清原本我們就是打算要編6萬是公務預算加上這個基金的部分總共加起來就是6萬所以沒有說前後有數字差異的問題而是要從哪一個裁員來撥用的問題是那我希望這個主委一定要再次的澄清我們是一直以來都是這樣子的立場並且非常的照顧原住民族這個立場絕對不會變得對嗎是"},{"start":70.114,"end":80.745,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":94.158,"end":97.74,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":118.493,"end":121.035,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":138.87,"end":156.303,"text":"看了一下你們113年度到8月底的預算質詢率只有5.91%那是不是可以先請教一下這個預算質詢率的部分是出了什麼問題會不會延宕到未來我們成立的進度因為我們預計是在2032年就要來啟用對嗎是"},{"start":161.035,"end":166.539,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":181.375,"end":187.358,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":197.004,"end":198.625,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":226.984,"end":229.947,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":250.126,"end":253.967,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":269.853,"end":275.257,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":300.714,"end":308.918,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":330.609,"end":357.826,"text":"委員好好林主委好因為最近大家有討論到說你們出國考察的這個費用是不是有一些問題那我在這邊還是希望我們當場會再次的明確說明因為這個去歐洲考察其實對我們來促進轉型正義非常非常的重要那包括其實有歐洲非常多的國家都已經是非常成熟的一些運作那從威權轉型包括說有一些是直接威權的政體"},{"start":358.946,"end":361.709,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":379.91,"end":383.613,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":408.85,"end":410.653,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":424.83,"end":427.451,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":451.141,"end":453.324,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":470.143,"end":474.447,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":497.125,"end":500.009,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":516.07,"end":519.251,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":546.428,"end":547.129,"text":"好,我們請劉許廷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":697,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（9時44分）謝謝主席，請原民會曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委早。剛剛有委員提到禁伐補償，是不是請你再明確說明一下，其實在我們原本預算的編列裡就是打算編6萬，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有關禁伐補償，因為歷年來都是預算跟我們的基金對列，就是預算編一半、我們的基金編一半，然後由基金來運作，歷年來都是這樣，所以如果不用其他的經費，我們一樣可以用我們的預算跟基金來發放禁伐補償。"],["黃委員捷：所以我覺得在這邊還是要再次澄清，原本我們就是打算要編6萬，是以公務預算加上基金的部分，總共加起來就是6萬，因此沒有前後有數字差異的問題，而是要從哪一個財源來撥用的問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：我希望主委一定要再次澄清，我們一直以來都是這樣子的立場，並且非常照顧原住民族，這個立場絕對不會變的，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：再來，我請教一下高雄的部分，因為高雄最近關於原民會有一個非常重要的預算，就是原住民族的博物館，其實上一次在業務詢答的時候我也問過主委，但是主委對於高雄這個博物館的預算使用以及接下來要如何去運作，不知道現在是不是夠了解了呢？我先講一下，因為這個計畫其實高雄市政府爭取很久，從前前市長，陳菊市長的時候就努力爭取，好不容易在選址的時候把這個國家型甚至是全球南島文化非常重要的據點放在高雄，我相信高雄也有我們的利基，是因為高雄16族都有，所以我們對於這樣子的未來建構是非常期待的。可是接下來原民會的角色就非常重要，因為你們不只是統籌規劃設計，然後接下來的興建甚至到最後的營運都是你們來負責，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["黃委員捷：那我就要來請教一下，因為其實從當初核定到現在，我看了一下你們113年度到8月底的預算執行率只有5.91%，是不是可以先請教一下，預算執行率的部分是出了什麼問題，會不會延宕到未來成立的進度？因為預計是在2032年就要啟用，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，跟委員報告，原住民博物館是在今年的9月11號核定，我們目前正在成立籌備處的辦公室還有辦公室的裝修，預定最慢在明年4月正式運作，以推動各項相關的籌備工作，我們希望再快，儘量趕進度，看能不能在6年內就把博物館蓋起來。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委。我在這邊還是再次的叮嚀也督促，就是你們對於博物館興建的進度，然後接下來人力的安排還有未來如何營運的計畫，你們現在心裡要先有一個雛形，而不是事情到了什麼階段才做什麼事，到時候真的緩不濟急，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["黃委員捷：因為我看到，對於你們執行率過低，然後速度比較慢，其實監察院也有提出調查報告，希望你們檢討相關的程序。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，跟委員報告，相關人員的培訓還有未來博物館的運作，因為我們有一個原住民族文化發展中心在屏東……"],["黃委員捷：是，沒錯。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們所有將來的博物館人才、人員已經在那邊訓練，已經訓練5、6年，所以將來會無縫接軌到這個原住民博物館，這部分我們也會特別注意。"],["黃委員捷：好，對，我希望主委真的有注意到這件事情，因為這個就是我最擔心的，你們沒有在事前包括未來的人力安排，因為其實這個調查報告裡面也有提到你們對於人力的安排等等都是不充足的，甚至當初也沒有預想到未來需要增列這麼多預算，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：那是前面，因為後面我們已經有計畫在循序漸進，把博物館一步一步地完成，也請各位委員指教，我想我們做到多少都會跟委員報告。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個進度務必要讓所有的高雄委員知道，因為大家都非常關心這個重大的計畫，接下來就在澄清湖園區裡面，我也看過設計圖還有大概的預覽，這個是非常重要的計畫，不希望到時候事與願違，做出來的成果跟我們想像的落差很大。其實裡面有幾點意見，也就是我剛剛講的，包括要成立籌備小組，甚至在這先前的籌備期間，有一些行銷策略就要先去想了，然後培養潛在的客群，這部分你們都要先準備，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委。","最後一點時間，我們請黨產會的林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：林主委好。因為最近大家有討論到你們出國考察的費用是不是有一些問題，我在這邊還是希望黨產會再次地明確說明，因為去歐洲考察，其實對我們促進轉型正義非常、非常地重要，歐洲非常多的國家都已經是非常成熟的一些運作，從威權轉型，包括有一些是直接從威權的政體瓦解垮臺的，他們有興建非常多硬體、軟體上面的運作，我不知道這個是不是我們現在應該非常正視的？"],["林主任委員峯正：對，所以我想，做這些事情都不是我們憑空想像的，我們剛開始處理黨產其實也是一個模型，就是德國的黨產處理模式，除了這個以外，其實歐洲各國有不同的歷史背景，譬如有波蘭、有捷克、有匈牙利、有西班牙，包括我上個月剛去了波羅的海的3個國家，這3個國家跟其他國家又完全都不一樣……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["林主任委員峯正：因為這3個國家從帝俄時代一直到蘇聯解體，他們一共被奴役了將近三百年，所以他們對於現在的俄羅斯跟中國的態度，相較於中東歐其他國家就不太一樣，像匈牙利，它看起來是跟中國非常友好，因此他們就是不一樣。這些事情你沒有辦法在網站或者看一些書籍就看到，你要到當地之後多去接觸，包括官方、包括NGO、包括研究單位，去面對面跟他們接觸、跟他們談的時候，他們才會慢慢地告訴你，若在家裡看書或者看網站，其實大概都是基本的資訊，而比較新的發展就會抓不到，這是因此為什麼我們要跑那麼遠。","其實還有一個，就是我們寫歐洲國家有另外一個問題是我們外交處境的問題，我曾經去某一個國家，都跟他約好了，他只是政府外圍的一個智庫，到了門口他跟我說今天他們有事情，也曾經發生這樣的事情。所以我們在編預算的時候，在這個部分就寫得比較模糊，我們是希望不要因此而發生任何的阻礙，這個都是我們不樂見的，因此在技術上會稍微模糊一點，是有這樣不得已的苦衷，不是我們不願意接受監督，所以委員如果對我們出國考察有稍微看過的話，上網看公務出國網，我們全部的出國報告都清清楚楚、非常詳盡，像各國什麼樣子、我們去了幾次，然後哪一天去見了誰、看到裡面有什麼資料，我想都非常清楚，大家都可以上網去看我們出國的報告，我相信這個應該是禁得起考驗的。"],["黃委員捷：是，好，謝謝主委的說明，我相信這些都是非常公開透明的資訊，就是這些預算到底如何使用、這些轉型正義的經驗如何在臺灣能夠被實踐，我相信都是我們共同期待的目標。我最後也給一點小意見，我希望之後不只是不當黨產委員會自己出國考察，其實也可以找其他的部會，因為包括文化部也有在做不義遺址的保存，他們是硬體上的，甚至是有一些活動的舉辦；又甚至是法務部這邊，包括他們的加害者辨識還有一些人事的除垢，這些其實也都可以找他們一起來交流，我也希望未來考察的經驗可以更豐富。"],["林主任委員峯正：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委。"],["主席：我們請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","張智倫","林倩綺","吳琪銘","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","許宇甄","黃仁","丁學忠"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會、原住民族文化發展中心部分；三、審查 114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金─原住民族綜合發展基金；\n四、審查原住民族委員會函送財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發\n展基金會114年度預算書案；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於不當黨產處理委員會單位預\n算","agenda_id":"1139601_00003"}}},{"id":"156646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f5f231ed082a6f880bd36f72287d07ce1fa6d04c6c47833443d6cc5b51f0f3cef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:36:07 - 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81.718,"end":385.881,"text":"主委根據黨產會114年的預算案黨產茶盒業務裡面編列了1173萬元相較於你去年度是編列1144萬增加了29萬2但是我們黨產茶盒業務在112年的執行率卻低於八成"},{"start":400.231,"end":425.696,"text":"截至113年8月底執行率未達到六成今年你的達成率沒有增加可是你今年預算要增加另外你114年的媒體政策及義務宣傳費也相較於上半年度增加約兩成還有114年的預算的出國計劃有四十二萬五千相較於上年度都是增加但仔細看我們考察計劃卻跟上年度的那種差不多"},{"start":426.576,"end":435.038,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":450.942,"end":465.689,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":476.054,"end":480.177,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":500.721,"end":504.366,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":673,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（9時35分）謝謝主席，有請原民會主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委好，djavadjavai。"],["曾主任委員智勇：djavadjavai！"],["黃委員建賓：主委，你應該沒有想過有一天原民會會成為延宕總預算審查的一個主因啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員建賓：我想最重要的原因還是因為對於立法三讀通過的禁伐補償每公頃6萬元，而且經過總統公布，中央竟然沒有依法編足，我想這是漠視原住民的權益。也因為執政黨的傲慢，無視原住民，無視立法三讀通過的法律，因此國民黨必須站出來，集體捍衛原住民的權益，同時也要捍衛立法院的尊嚴。沒有人知道如果今天政府犧牲的是原住民，下一次又要犧牲誰？對於本席來說，臺東有很多原住民鄉親，我本身也有很多原住民親朋好友，因此對於捍衛原住民的權益，本席絕對不會退讓。針對接下來的預算審查，我相信原民會的預算一定會被仔細檢驗，大家很納悶的是，既然民進黨有那麼多的理由不願意編足禁伐補償，不願意維護原住民朋友該有的權益，那到底是把錢花到哪裡去？","以下本席就舉原民會浮濫編列預算的兩大現象來跟主委討論：第一個就是媒體相關費用暴增，依據立法院預算中心的報告，原住民族委員會114年度「原住民族教育推展」之媒體政策及業務宣導預算，相較於112年度的決算大概增加了八成，光是這一點，我相信很多原住民朋友都難以接受，為什麼你們的宣傳費用可以翻漲將近兩倍，結果禁伐補償卻腰斬？到底是補償重要，還是幫忙做宣傳重要？你的教育推廣是推廣在什麼地方？你們把錢花在什麼地方？這樣是不是要花全國納稅人的錢來大內宣、大外宣？還是偷偷的養網軍？第二個就是水電費暴增三倍，主委你待會兒再回答。113年度原民會辦公大樓的水電費只有編列111萬，疫情前108年原民會辦公大樓的水電預算是編93萬，但是你們114年的水電費竟然編了358.7萬，暴增超過三倍。主委，你們的鄰居文化部114年的水電費只有只有比113年多14萬，原民會的水電費硬是增加248萬，行政院不是說各部會要節能減碳嗎？原民會增加水電費實在讓人匪夷所思，納稅人的錢不能這樣用。針對以上兩點，請主委提交一份預算增加的報告到本席辦公室，也讓民眾知道原民會到底怎麼花錢，究竟把錢花在什麼地方。","我想預算不是胡亂編列，該執行的都要執行，結果你們也沒有好好執行，其中宜居部落的預算執行率只有七成五，當時是為了改善部落的居住安全以及提升部落的居住環境，所以進行整體性的規劃，實施這個計畫本席覺得很好，本席在擔任鄉長的時候也有申請過這個計畫，我記得當時原民會長官提出的說法非常棒，就是我們從根本去解決部落的問題，而不是腳痛醫腳、手痛醫手，我覺得這個東西應該要推廣，可是你們在執行上卻只有七成五。根據審計部的報告，原民會113年度1月到6月宜居部落計畫執行率只有七成五，這其中的一個問題是什麼？主委你知道嗎？就是沒有人去投標啦！原鄉的工程在執行上很困難的原因就是即便規劃好了、預算到位了之後，也不見得會有廠商去投標，我相信主委應該很了解原鄉要推動的困難處，在人力跟物力缺乏的情況之下，中央必須要給予協助，讓我們的族人能夠安居樂業。像本席之前擔任鄉長的時候，也提報過愛國蒲橋梁，就是遇到這樣的問題，我還記得那時候流標六次，我接手之前已經流標六次，就是因為預算一直不夠。針對這兩個部分，主委你有沒有什麼要補充的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：首先我要跟委員報告一開始所講的禁伐補償，我想這個要謝謝卓院長，也謝謝韓院長全力來協助這個事情，謝謝各位委員的幫忙跟協助，讓原住民可以取得禁伐補償，我也呼籲族人要更愛護我們自己的土地、更保護我們土地，讓我們的土地真正來做水土的保持、水土的涵養，這個部分我先做一個說明。","第二個就是有關工程的部分，我知道在原住民鄉很多的工程都是越偏鄉的地方工程越難做，因為缺工、缺料又缺人，缺得很嚴重，針對比較有問題的、好幾次流標的，我們都會主動去協助，看看到底有什麼地方有狀況，是不是設計需要稍微再改呢？還是經費不夠呢？我們都會主動去協助。","至於剛剛講的水費、電費，我們會有一個更明確的說明，因為這個以前是編在我們的業務費裡面，後來我們有增編一些預算，所以才這樣子把它列出來，是這樣子的。當然不能跟文化部還有……"],["黃委員建賓：沒關係，主委你會後再把資料送到本席辦公室。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員建賓：我再利用一點點時間，我想要請教一下不當黨產處理委員會的林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委，根據黨產會114年的預算案，黨產查核業務裡面編列了1,173萬元，相較於去年度編列的1,144萬元，加了29萬2,000元，但是黨產查核業務在112年的執行率卻低於八成，截至113年8月底，執行率未達到六成，你們的達成率沒有增加，可是今年的預算卻要增加。另外，你們114年的媒體政策及業務宣傳費相較於上年度增加約兩成，還有114年的出國計畫預算有42萬5,000元，相較於上年度都是增加，但仔細看你們的考察計畫卻跟上年度的內容差不多，都是考察歐洲各國處理不當黨產問題，我想請黨產會能夠好好來檢討預算的編列是不是有浮編的情況。"],["林主任委員峯正：我們一項一項來說明，政宣費應該是跟去年一樣，就是42萬5,000元；有關於黨產查核那個項目，那是8月底的數字，到10月底已經在八成了，因為本會的預算總額其實很小，所以一、二項業務、幾十萬元的業務如果有delay的話，就會影響執行率，雖然8月的時候是六成，現在到了10月底是已經到八成了。至於出國的部分，因為歐洲其實非常多國家，尤其是中東歐以前受過共產黨統治的國家很多，但是各國的狀況都不一樣，包括黨產處理的狀況也都不一樣，所以沒有辦法A國跟B國就是完全一樣，因此我們在網路上看看就好，因而我說讀萬卷書還是要行萬里路，為什麼要行萬里路？就是有些事情尤其是一些細節要當面去跟他們確認或者當面提問才有辦法，你在網站上看的都是基本資料。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝主委，主委還是在預算編列上能夠更為仔細，節省我們人民的納稅錢並減少公帑，謝謝主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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覺得你這樣的做法，可以讓任何原住民到戶政事務所報戶口時受到尊重嗎？你覺得這樣有改進嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有改進啦！"],["王委員美惠：有改進嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，有，有。"],["王委員美惠：主委，實在很悲哀，也很痛心！再來，過了一個月，9月再度發生這樣的事情。爸爸跟媽媽都是原住民，要去報戶口的時候，也遇到同樣的狀況，說什麼因為原住民的族人名譜裡沒有這個名字，所以沒辦法取這個名字。主委，這件事情你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我也知道。"],["王委員美惠：你也知道喔，8月發生時，你說可以改進，為什麼9月又再度發生呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，確實是戶政事務所還不完全了解原住民的名字要怎麼取……"],["王委員美惠：為什麼？有原住民的地方，你們應該要去輔導、幫忙他們，沒幫忙就很糟糕了，還說那種話傷人，主委，你聽起來會難過嗎？主委，你是不是他們的大家長？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：這是大不應該，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，我們有透過內政部溝通，主要是一些平地的戶政事務所比較不清楚，如果是原住民鄉鎮的戶政事務所，他們就比較清楚……"],["王委員美惠：主委，我說的這些戶政機關所在地大部分都有原住民，而且是多數，對於這樣的狀況，你有辦法承諾下次不會再發生嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們很不希望發生這樣的事情，我們會配合內政部，再一次通報給戶政事務所。"],["王委員美惠：主委，我們是好意讓原住民可以改為原住民的姓、名，是因為尊重他們，才實施這個政策……"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：不過現在的所作所為，卻變成是一種傷害，這樣不好，對此，你們要加強宣導，趕快跟每一縣市的戶政事務所說明清楚，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["王委員美惠：另外，114年度你們編列了設置族語推動人員實施計畫預算1億200萬元，但是目前在22個縣市中，只有7個縣市有設置，而且缺額33個，主委，別的縣市我們先不談，就以我的故鄉嘉義市為例，從去年說到現在，什麼時候嘉義市會設置相關人員？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，你說的那7個，是專案的族語推動中心……"],["王委員美惠：對啦！到目前嘉義市沒有，雲林也沒有，但你們明年還是有這個預算，針對多年來我提到的一些沒有設置的縣市，這樣的預算出來後，你認為嘉義市會設置嗎？來！回答一下，嘉義市的原住民人口數有1,318人，不要說已經是一千三百多人，光是300人，你們都應該要服務……"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，是。"],["王委員美惠：更何況你現在有這些預算，你要去做啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會把原住民人口數的標準再降低，就是原住民200個、300個……"],["王委員美惠：主委，在此提供我的意見，如果人員不好找或不好聘請，是不是雲嘉嘉可以一起合作，讓他們可以去嘉義也好、去雲林也好？這是一個方法，你們要去研議，不能擺爛說沒有就算了，這樣很不好，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得預算要過，但也要實施，要做好啦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：說實在的，原住民的語言很好聽，不要讓原住民覺得到哪裡辦事或做什麼，連一個來協助的人都沒有，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["王委員美惠：主委，本席今天跟你說這個，是希望未來能有所改進，而不要擺爛！請主委回座。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：接下來請不當黨產委員會林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員早。"],["王委員美惠：主委，不當黨產處理委員會的功能，就是將不當黨產、不義財產討回來還給政府，當然，其中最主要的就是訴訟的問題。今年5月的時候，我們設有一個公職律師，但總的來看，卻沒有看到不當黨產處理委員會這個單位有去申請任何的協助，這是為什麼？是因為你們不需要公職律師，還是你們覺得你們已經很厲害，不需要別人來幫忙了，是不是這樣？請主委回答一下。"],["林主任委員峯正：跟委員說明一下，我們內部原來就有很多具法律背景的同仁，所以我們在調查的時候，包括做處分的時候，都是我們自己處理的，但是案件如果移送到法院去的時候，那個量不可能由我們自己來處理，必須要有出庭的律師、訴訟的律師來幫忙，所以原則上移送去法院之後……目前我們在法院有八十幾個案件，所以我們就委託外面的律師來處理，但是委託報酬的金額其實都很低。"],["王委員美惠：主委，本席之所以跟你探討這個問題，主要是因為我覺得有多一點專業的人進來，對你們的訴訟一定有幫助，本席的意思不是說你們不要委託外面的人，只是既然有公職律師，你們就應該好好利用，在所有單位當中，你們這個單位最需要協助。"],["林主任委員峯正：我跟委員補充一下，因為我們這個單位沒有常任的編制，所以目前要用……"],["王委員美惠：主委，我知道你們就是沒有編制，但是在這裡面……"],["林主任委員峯正：公職律師是有編制的。"],["王委員美惠：對，但我覺得你們有必要去提議，這樣你們這個單位在訴訟時才有辦法把不當的財產要回來啊！以上，謝謝。"],["林主任委員峯正：感謝。"],["主席：請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員的指教我想我們會結合我們其他部會來合作推動這個強化原住民族促進就業的方案第一期從111年到114年來配合各部會來把原住民的這個就業能夠弄得更好"},{"start":72.918,"end":77.86,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":94.498,"end":100.982,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":117.008,"end":121.25,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":130.699,"end":140.987,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":157.04,"end":158.842,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於原住民族委員會主管作業基金"},{"start":174.56,"end":176.682,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":193.919,"end":196.519,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":224.224,"end":229.127,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":245.635,"end":248.958,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":267.056,"end":270.578,"text":"還有銷售量有沒有這樣的數據這樣的比例有沒有因為我去到很多的部落他們都說他們做很多但是呢他們花很多時間但是這個價錢就是手工的要賣出去的話變成沒辦法達成他們的生活的支出所以這個部分才真真的沒辦法說去解決"},{"start":291.031,"end":293.215,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":300.151,"end":329.717,"text":"家庭的經濟還有如何讓他們就是除了就是他們的就業以外他們的在保險啊或者是他們的租金或者是就業還有就面臨很多很多的這些問題我們要有沒有什麼的計劃有什麼脫貧的措施或者是讓他們學以致用真真的讓他們可以在創業或者就業才能自己幫助到自己"},{"start":330.404,"end":332.745,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":345.629,"end":353.992,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":375.399,"end":378.321,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":399.932,"end":403.075,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":419.733,"end":426.921,"text":"我們的原住民委員會要領薪水因為很多部落他們就覺得說這個委員是來幫助他們來協助他們但是他的功能就失去了所以很多部落的因為我的同學很多都是都是原住民的朋友在靜怡大學大部分"},{"start":438.052,"end":440.354,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":458.228,"end":464.853,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":484.928,"end":490.053,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金"},{"start":508.61,"end":509.951,"text":"王美惠委員請正主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":581,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時16分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請哪一個主委？"],["麥委員玉珍：原民會。"],["主席：好，請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。請教一下，因為我們看到資料，根據98年度的調查，原住民族失業率雖然是有下降的趨勢，但到了110年12月，仍有超過一成原住民的勞工月薪不到2萬元，面對這樣的低薪困境，主委有何準備？怎麼資料只有110年？現在是113年，我們看到這樣子的狀況，你如何去改善？還有最近的資料我們怎麼沒有看到，而是看到那麼久的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員的指教，我想我們會結合其他部會來合作推動強化原住民族促進就業的方案，第一期從111年到114年，配合各部會來把原住民的就業能夠弄得更好。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！但是我們看到的是勞工的月薪不到2萬元，對於這樣的低薪要如何去改善，你有沒有什麼措施或是協助的方案？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們的措施就是希望把這個差距再把它縮短、再把它縮短。"],["麥委員玉珍：如何縮短？"],["曾主任委員智勇：提升他們的專業技能，還有希望訓練他們之後讓他的技能能夠更好，取得更多的證照，然後我們訓練他，讓他在就業的時候會有更好的待遇，像職業訓練班我們都有在做。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，職業訓練班都有在做，希望他們增加就業，解決家庭的經濟。我也有去當過原住民課程的講師，但是我要問的重點是就業，我們要讓他學習技能去就業，但是問題有很多，我們的部落去辦了課程，但是學習後你有沒有幫忙他們去行銷？這個才能真正的解決就業，還有讓他們的東西可以銷售到全臺灣、全世界，而不是一直在培訓、培訓，變成永遠的學生，這樣子的話沒辦法解決他們的家庭經濟還有就業率，他們的東西可以真正的在市面上去銷售，這個才是真正的解決他們的經濟，不是只是我們辦很多課程，讓他們培訓、讓他們學習，這樣不是解決問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，很多經濟產業的發展，像部落的旅遊我們也直接訓練他們，希望說不管是從風味餐，不管是帶到部落裡面去做更深度的旅遊，我們有訓練導覽的人，也有烹飪的人，我們希望能更多元，不是只有做一項工作。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但是更多元……現在關於我們的部落，有很多婦女在部落學習到很多，就是傳承編織技能，但是如何銷售？他們的賣點在哪裡？銷售才能達成我們培訓的職能，但是他們做的東西要賣給誰？哪裡可以讓他們去賣，還要有人可以買，這個才是真正的解決問題啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，跟委員報告我們現在在做的，我們也創造很多在都會區的平臺，比如像宜蘭，我們有一個文創的園地，各個地方都有原住民百貨公司，希望把原住民的東西拿到都會區來，讓更多我們都會區的……"],["麥委員玉珍：生產的量還有銷售量，有沒有這樣子的數據？這樣的比例有沒有？因為我去很多的部落，他們都說他們做很多，他們花很多時間，但是這個價錢就是手工的，要賣出去的話，變成沒辦法達成他們生活的支出，這個部分如果沒辦法解決，變成大家永遠是專業學生，這個才是我們希望主委這邊來去解決的，就是我們家庭的經濟，還有如何讓他們就是……除了他們的就業以外，他們在保險或者是他們的租金或者是就業，面臨很多很多的問題，我們有沒有什麼計畫或是脫貧的措施，或者是讓他們學以致用，真正的讓他們可以創業或者就業，才能自己幫助到自己。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們在各縣市，我們都有做原住民整個產業的平臺，希望除了這些我們自己的手工藝品以外，還有更多的創新產品拿出來平地賣，有的做得很好，但是有的我們還需要繼續再加強，我想只有把原住民的東西拿出來在平地賣，有平地的朋友願意買，這樣我們才會賺到錢。"],["麥委員玉珍：講得很好、講得很好，大家都知道有這個目的，但是我希望主委要有具體的計畫，真正的幫助到我們的原住民，學習後、製作後才有地方去銷售，我希望主委要有一個明確的計畫。還有，你要去調查製作的人還有銷售的人，看他們的銷售有沒有達成這個比例，可不可以給我們完整的數據，這樣對我們原住民朋友才是真正的幫助，不只是一直在辦課程。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，我們做的這些，我們會整理一個資料給委員，好不好？因為各縣市我們都有……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，希望你要把這個放在心裡，也要有真正的計畫，才能幫助到我們的原住民。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：還有，為什麼大家一直在反對我們的原住民委員要領薪水？因為很多部落他們覺得說，這個委員是來幫助他們、來協助他們，但是他的功能就失去了。因為我在靜宜大學的同學有很多是原住民朋友，很多人跟我反映關於這一塊，希望委員在遴選的時候，各族委員要有其專業性，就是不只代表這一族，還要有專業，就像我們新住民的委員一樣，要有一大堆專業，這樣他們才能在各部會的領域協助我們，但是在原住民委員的遴選部分，我們沒有看到專業，你們只是遴選不同族群而已，針對這個部分，我希望主委對於擔任委員的資格，以及遴選的過程，要給我們一個完整的報告，這樣對我們原住民朋友才是真的有幫助。因為學以致用，每個人的學習都有很多經驗、很多能力，但如果只要有人推選就可以當選委員，其他的努力都沒有希望，這樣對我們原住民是很不公平的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，我們會按照這個遴選機制來跟……"],["麥委員玉珍：這部分希望主委給我一個完整的規劃，還有資料，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-8","speakers":["張宏陸","麥玉珍","王美惠","黃建賓","黃捷","牛煦庭","李柏毅","盧縣一","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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審個財化法打陳玉珍 打陳永康 打議事人員連吳思瑤都不放過一起打這民進黨厲害啊我們佩服他"},{"start":31.991,"end":55.266,"text":"我跟大家講我告訴大家這就是民進黨厲害的地方對不對打陳玉珍然後跟大家講民進黨打陳玉珍跟大家講國民黨不民主民進黨打陳永康然後跟大家講國民黨不民主民進黨打了議事人員跟大家講國民黨不民主連吳秉瑞去打吳思瑤都是國民黨不民主啊"},{"start":56.607,"end":83.901,"text":"還罵我政治癡漢你怎麼不講說今天無比那暴力難呢雙標嘛我都跟我們卓院長說好好關心你的傷勢了民進黨這樣打人是不對的一天到晚示範什麼叫做暴力然後在這邊背一個我們財化法的意思我要告訴大家今天財化法不就是導正過去中央集權又集權賴清德的名言吶"},{"start":85.612,"end":107.844,"text":"我們在這裡是貫徹賴清德總統的理念啊信念啊你們這一群民進黨的叛徒你們對得起賴清德總統嗎賴清德總統心心念念要修改財化法欸中央集權又集錢欸對不對你民進黨這多年來光提案修正財化法有30件"},{"start":109.065,"end":131.407,"text":"我們的賴清德提案連續4次、蕭美琴11次、鄭麗君8次你們今天民進黨到底在這邊幹什麼啊?要不然回去先打個電話問問賴清德啊請示一下賴清德總統你明明下令中央集權又集權要去修正這個已經25年沒有修正的財化法"},{"start":132.068,"end":141.126,"text":"那現在你民進黨到底在亂什麼呢?所以我跟各位說今天說實在的話就像剛剛王育民委員講的在這邊有很多區域的立委"},{"start":142.349,"end":166.242,"text":"以前中央跟地方的這個財源分配中央是六成地方是四成現在中央變75%地方只剩2乘5你們都沒有覺得有一點點怪怪的不合理嗎今天達成的結果是什麼很多縣市越來越窮啊越完全仰望今天中央"},{"start":167.422,"end":189.809,"text":"地方就越來越窮那中央有錢幹嘛就亂花嘛最近大家看到沒有光電國家這個臺電的那個所謂的那個所有的掏空還有包括今天很多預算亂花今天就是因為中央沒有好好把錢管好因為他把地方該有錢拿走拜託趕快表決啦今天讓我們的議事務通過謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f1cd45b2e7a8c10bfee6d8cd9fc431773fa6d04c6c478334400665548fbcbefd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:54:50 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謝謝主席我想上禮拜的財化法的一個修法那我們陳玉珍主席在主持開會那我從一開始就跟陳玉珍講說基本上會議的進行因為相對單位基本上來的是不夠的邀請的也不足比方說在中央的部會你衛福部就沒有來你怎麼去討論到"},{"start":33.126,"end":45.435,"text":"未來關於健保費這個地方的負擔跟中央的一個分別在哪邊那還有地方政府我們都說地方政府應該要給他來溝通結果陳玉珍一手然後告訴我說好地方政府會邀請那邀請就是在禮拜三那結果禮拜三來到了這邊他卻在"},{"start":59.758,"end":83.303,"text":"九點開始開會到九點零三分就結束了會議然後就把整個財化法送出委員會所以才會有所謂三分鐘所以三分鐘的委員會在主條根本沒有辦法討論我們把地方政府邀請到了這邊你有辦法讓任何一個地方政府讓我們在場的每一個委員有辦法詢問嗎一個都沒有"},{"start":86.064,"end":111.19,"text":"一個都沒辦法詢問所以我們還是具體建議國民黨應該要去思考程序的一個重要性你們一直在講說過去在處理前餐預算的時候委員會也有這個程序不足你們在講剛剛郭國文委員在處理會計法的時候也有程序不足我要告訴國民黨這兩個法案的審查最後都退回程序委員會"},{"start":111.83,"end":127.367,"text":"退回我們財政委員會重新審查不管是前瞻或者是會計法都是後來在朝野協商的時候就直接退回到了我們財政委員會再補足程序所以國民黨勒你們應該"},{"start":128.808,"end":154.175,"text":"在具體的應該我們接下來就由韓國瑜院長來協商那我認為財化法竟然涉及到了整個地方政府的一個財化的一個分配那我們應該愛好每個地方政府要充分的表示意見像最近大家都有說嘛那為什麼財化法只能用人口來做計算土地面積不重要嗎"},{"start":154.955,"end":174.562,"text":"阿像有這個賴瑞榮的版本欸他用所謂的一個汙染的一個這個過去重工業然後汙染的一個狀況那既然都有這樣的一個情況存在我們不能漠視不見啊為什麼還要用過去那一套平行分配的方式造成地方的不公呢"},{"start":175.282,"end":197.136,"text":"您知道嗎?您這次處理到了垂直分配,你們就會把中央的預算都給我,然後地方政府之間大家要怎麼分?大家要怎麼分才是公平的、才是安全的?並不是說地方只要增加預算,這樣就是公平的。你看明明說臺北市有首都的3%"},{"start":198.838,"end":221.779,"text":"其他的地方政府就沒有這3%那這樣來說起來是公平嗎這個3%一定要保留的必要性在哪裡有說明嗎 沒有說明啊那同樣的預算到的地方如果土地面積比較大的他遇到天然災害遇到颱風遇到地震的時候他需要更多的預算來做災害的復原"},{"start":224.361,"end":230.384,"text":"那這樣的話有辦法在我們這一部的財化法展現因為土地面積他要負擔的負擔的是不一樣的嗎"},{"start":234.176,"end":259.055,"text":"啊這些東西都沒討論那我們就要把他送出委員會所以禮拜三的時候在上禮拜三逐條討論我們就是希望這一些狀況是可以被討論的我有版本啊我的版本你們有討論嗎我的版本說要做農地的一個比例對我的版本你們在這裡都沒有被討論到啊我自己有版本啊賴克榮有版本國民黨這麼多委員都有版本"},{"start":262.133,"end":288.181,"text":"然後我要再講一個重點欸事實上當天除了國民黨的版本之外我跟賴慧榮、吳立法有版本民眾黨也有版本欸但是你們最後你們最後把他送出去的你們卻沒有講到民眾黨的版本你們國民黨還有那麼多委員有版本這些版本欸未來又怎樣未來他是怎樣啊他是一併送出去"},{"start":289.586,"end":317.135,"text":"一併送出去要討論還是他們要保留未來再審理你都沒說對 你都沒說啊民眾黨的版本你就這樣給它跳過去了那你們只是意思意思把我跟賴瑞榮的版本把它送到送到朝野協商事實上它就是沒有討論啊我在朝野協商的時候沒有辦法去確認到我的版本它如果換算在22個縣市的時候它的比例是多少嗎"},{"start":318.581,"end":336.223,"text":"有辦法嗎?沒辦法啊!內容說如果用污染做一個指標的話他換算到了所有22個縣市的時候每一個縣市應該要作為多少的指標有辦法知道嗎?這個都要在主條討論的時候大家要講清楚"},{"start":338.066,"end":353.197,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政委員會第11屆第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委"},{"start":359.581,"end":382.243,"text":"後來你禮拜四你那天完全沒有做任何的會議了啊禮拜四就可以處理為什麼你不要在禮拜三的時候給大家充分討論我剛剛說了那麼多的指標這些指標要回到22縣市它所佔的分配應該要佔多少分配這個都很重要"},{"start":384.108,"end":400.153,"text":"結果你們這些東西都人過了所以我還是具體建議啦我們既然程序上有這些問題過去遇到這個在委員會沒有充分討論的時候還是會退回到了就會退回我們民進黨當時也是主動退的啊那有啦"},{"start":406.198,"end":412.485,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會"},{"start":430.38,"end":449.041,"text":"紅衛給那個育吟繼續講啦好啦斯敏好啦所以反正我們就是建議嘛你們過去的時候也有這樣過去前瞻的時候前瞻的時候你們對邱育吟處理你們認為有瑕疵當時也是退回財政委員會啊"},{"start":450.658,"end":471.371,"text":"也是退回委員會審查嘛對啊所以我是覺得國民黨你們不要把法案搞到有瑕疵那換我們就好好處理嘛該好好討論每個人都可以有充分的討論嘛每個地方政府有他的堅持啊你們國民黨還是有很多"},{"start":480.629,"end":494.218,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政委員會第11屆第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會"}]}},{"id":"156665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156665","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f0b8fa1659ad03e8eee6d8cd9fc431773a12e40efa9c24bd34ac9ba3278b278f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:24:55 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謝謝主席我想今天我們每一個人的三分鐘如果以陳玉珍過法案的速度我們今天可以過多少法案就是說今天上來這三分鐘的時間我大概要花非常多的時間在闢謠因為其實剛剛國民黨的委員造了非常非常多的謠例如他們說什麼現在不要杯葛預算黨預算都不管了嗎大家都不管民生的救命錢了嗎要以民生為念種種的這些說法"},{"start":33.514,"end":43.318,"text":"坦白說過去兩個多月到底是誰在擋救命錢誰在擋民生優先的預算就是國民黨"},{"start":45.049,"end":70.766,"text":"再說一次誰在擋民生優先的錢誰在擋國家的總預算就是國民黨再來剛剛還有一直不停的提到就是說財化法25年沒有修了還不趕快修民進黨也有委員題版本民政黨也有委員題版本但是有被好好討論嗎同時這過去25年馬英九政府沒有執政嗎他沒有執政嗎"},{"start":75.987,"end":86.177,"text":"那他有修嗎?不要全部都甩鍋到民進黨身上再來整個過程之中一直不停地去強調說我們有造議事的程序"},{"start":87.762,"end":114.578,"text":"我想這其實就是國會擴權法案再現啦就是走一個流程但是並沒有進行所有的實質討論因為整個在議事錄上面呈現的就是三分鐘過法案而且呢而且呢而且這個過程之中呢並沒有依照職權行使法第九條第二項來依規定逐條依序提附討論再來也沒有依規定來讓委員逐條發言"},{"start":118.052,"end":143.76,"text":"沒有讓在場的委員發言之外也沒有徵詢停止討論下就直接進行處理條文違反議事規則也違反委員實質討論的空間再來也沒有依照規定來進行表決程序睜眼說瞎話從頭到尾點名表決只有點國民黨的委員出席委員總共14人卻只有唱名反對者的6人"},{"start":145.24,"end":150.987,"text":"沒有依照簽到簿進行暢明也沒有依照規定點名表決可否均不過半數"},{"start":153.359,"end":175.654,"text":"所以我想因為剛剛國民黨的委員一直不停地說要口口聲聲說要幫執政黨非常在乎賴清德總統的想法然後我想那既然助人工作者有一個最基本的概念我來教一下國民黨的委員們就是你要依據被幫助的人的想法來執行"},{"start":176.915,"end":187.005,"text":"所以國民黨委員口口聲聲說要來幫助執政黨所以口口聲聲說要遵循賴清德的總統的想法那我想大家應該有共識我們就依據職權行使法第68條有重大爭議時我們就請韓院長來召開朝野協商那這週的議事錄就無效也無法確定這個議事錄謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16246","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e8be0a0888e7d71049b5fa2f296a93534edb79b8bfb08e799434705d458d248bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關主計總處暨審計部、審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部桃園市審計處、審計部臺中市審計處、審計部臺南市審計處、審計部高雄市審計處部分。（僅詢答）\n三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關直轄市及縣市政府。調整軍公教人員待遇準備。災害準備金。第二預備金。（僅詢答））","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-11T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-11T17:30:00+08:00","duration":32401,"影片長度":"09:00:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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75,"text":"點名表決的提議之前沒有進行點名表決方式的決定表決的狀況下禁止宣告才點名表決而且出席委員總共有14人僅暢明反對者就是否定方的6個人也沒有一道尖道的名簿來暢明而且依規定點名表決可否不掛半數提案應不予通過"},{"start":2926.255,"end":2937.009,"text":"但主席僅有在6個人支持不到半數的狀況下結果不成立卻為嚴重的違反議事規則所以我們認為這個復議案的處理是無效的"},{"start":2938.838,"end":2965.816,"text":"眾上喔就是說上次的會議開會完全沒有照規則來所以我們今天的提案認為上次的會議明顯無效不應該確認上一次的這個議事規則這是我們的主張另外不要用假借審預算為名啦今天只有尋答今天沒有預算處理你看清楚議事討論所以在那邊亂講說我們在擋預算的審查是你們已經擋走預算復回兩個月啦"},{"start":2969.246,"end":2976.186,"text":"故意在那邊亂講一氣啦齁好謝謝好接著我們請李坤澄委員花言"},{"start":2987.355,"end":3000.607,"text":"謝謝主席這個是誰在擋總預算是國民黨在擋總預算兩個月前總預算就應該負為審查了結果兩個月之後我們才排定總預算今天的這個請主計處、審計處來做詢答所以到底是誰在擋總預算是國民黨"},{"start":3006.613,"end":3031.81,"text":"在黨總預算是國民黨在黨總預算是國民黨在黨總預算我們上個禮拜陳玉珍他擔任召委整個會議審財務法短短的3分鐘的時間就讓他過了我們看一下這個我們整理一下上一次3分鐘的他的逐字稿"},{"start":3032.915,"end":3060.125,"text":"他是跳著念的啊九分鐘就開始說我們要進行逐條討論有進行逐條討論嗎沒有念了第三條跳到第八條跳到第十二條跳到第三十條念了四條全部都跳過去只念條次沒有條文根本不知道在審什麼內容然後呢念完之後問說有沒有復議"},{"start":3061.545,"end":3073.711,"text":"有沒有復議?結果呢只唸了財委會我們有14個委員只唸了國民黨6個委員6個委員問完之後呢就說好復議不成立然後呢最後是講什麼啊黃珊珊沒有了沒有黃珊珊黃珊珊有舉手嗎啊沒看到啊沒關係最後呢唸了一句好唸完了好宣告散會"},{"start":3088.138,"end":3105.334,"text":"你是在唸什麼東西啊陳玉珍你是在唸什麼東西啊我們看一下這個會議記錄今天本來要確認這個議事錄議事錄裡面寫了什麼東西議事錄根本沒有把"},{"start":3106.673,"end":3128.266,"text":"我們這一次上市開會的所有的決議還有呢因為有表決也沒有把記載表決的方法完全把它寫出來根本就違反了議事規則違反了立法院的職權行使法我們看一下最後呢"},{"start":3130.245,"end":3145.212,"text":"決議短短的兩點根本就沒有把這一次上一次的會議到底審了什麼條文大家對於表決的意見有沒有意義完全都沒有寫出來"},{"start":3146.312,"end":3166.345,"text":"所以我們認為呢上個禮拜對於這個財劃法的審查根本違反了議事的相關的規定上次的審查結果無效而且呢本市的會議的這個議事錄呢也沒有按照規定來記載不應該予以確認好 謝謝坤城委員接著請陳一貞委員發言"},{"start":3177.74,"end":3195.968,"text":"現在所有在說現在所有在說審查時間只有3分鐘了就是沒有注意看我們上個會議開會的會議通知我們上個禮拜開會是禮拜一、禮拜三、禮拜四是一次會換句話說從禮拜一開始就已經開始在審查財化法"},{"start":3196.728,"end":3219.743,"text":"禮拜一整天已經通過了經過了五輪的發言我讓大家暢所欲言暢所欲言到沒有人願意登記發言為止禮拜一就已經開始進入財化法的討論在上個禮拜是廣泛討論禮拜一就開始進入討論禮拜三只是休息之後的開會禮拜一就已經進入討論而且大家看到有五十幾位的民進黨委員上來發言"},{"start":3221.244,"end":3239.338,"text":"在場當中所有每一個人都上來發言好多次針對查法的內容哪一個條文不適合都有上來發言所以說沒有討論這個根本就是胡說八道如果外面人不懂得開會的程序自己身為立法委員也不懂那就是太丟臉了134是一次會一次會就從禮拜一開始開禮拜三是繼續開會把禮拜一還沒有開完的從"},{"start":3245.163,"end":3257.567,"text":"休息後開始所以我們不是重新開會你會看到大家禮拜三就沒有確定議事錄也沒有再介紹官員就是因為我們是繼續開會從禮拜一一直開到晚上10點半以後的繼續開會這個是第一點第二點剛剛會說什麼念3、4、8、12、16之一什麼等等的人說跳著念是因為沒有注意聽開會的內容原來版本有22個版本這次討論的因為其他的委員國民黨的委員都說"},{"start":3273.032,"end":3300.174,"text":"自己的版本可以不用討論了都已經向本行出面表示意見然後呢全部以國民黨版本為討論依據然後接著那是參與吳立華還有賴銳仁的版本我們一樣有進行討論所以後來討論的是四個版本那四個版本只有這幾條其他的條文沒有民進黨團也是依據國民黨團的版本討論這有時候已經溝通好了你們不知道的話就不要胡說八道另外一個"},{"start":3301.752,"end":3316.75,"text":"有關這個確認因素﹖所以本席是有針對說這一你說的修正動議方面李燕秀、高金美、宋明文針對他們的修正動議都表示徹案不再討論這個我在一開始就有講了你們都沒有再注意聽是因為郭國文開始帶頭作亂讓整個議場亂哼哼所以我講的話你們都沒有聽到"},{"start":3322.195,"end":3345.781,"text":"除了你以外還有其他的委員所以根據議事規則立法院議事規則第54條第2項的規定議事的確認除了有錯誤或是遺漏的時候應以書面提出由主席進行處理意思就是說議事錄只有在內容發生錯誤遺漏才能要求處理這個議事錄的記載非常的詳實這是送出去的版本"},{"start":3346.721,"end":3358.668,"text":"民進黨有三個摘餘奈瑞隆、吳立華的版本國民黨團只有一個我們送出了三個民進黨版本一個國民黨版本所以是非常的尊重民進黨所以請主席趕快確認議事錄謝謝"},{"start":3361.557,"end":3383.544,"text":"好 謝謝陳一貞委員這個不得不佩服陳一貞召委啊這個連續三分鐘都可以隨便亂講話那這個抖音式的一分鐘讓大家花言竟然還可以講的這麼精準啊所以實在是令人家感到非常的奇怪接著請李燕秀委員花言"},{"start":3391.004,"end":3417.282,"text":"民進黨長期人家都說當家不鬧事民進黨既要總預算覆違然後呢又打臉過去無論是商美當家不鬧事但是民進黨從這個會期來送總預算一直不斷地說國民黨在杯葛但是到最後你看又找韓院長要喝咖啡又朝野各黨派喝咖啡又說要吃飯"},{"start":3418.303,"end":3433.052,"text":"到最後其實讓整個立法院空轉了兩個多月的時間我們非常的遺憾包括財化法的處理其實剛才吳秉瑞委員的提案我要再提一次根據議事規則54條之二"},{"start":3437.348,"end":3460.056,"text":"主席委員如果認為上一次的會議紀錄除非是有遺漏或錯誤錯誤的時候才可以書面提出跟程序一點問題都沒有我要再一次提醒民進黨今天我們審查的部分是中央的災害準備金跟公務人員的調薪的部分跟整個我們預算的處理"},{"start":3460.916,"end":3463.518,"text":"這些預算每一條今天官員這麼多人都在要審查預算的不是民進黨嗎怎麼今天又丟出來一個案子來杯葛今天開會的程序所有審預算的也是民進黨杯葛的也是民進黨當家鬧事惹事的還是民進黨財化法"},{"start":3487.557,"end":3494.261,"text":"已經25年沒休了賴清德、吳運當、台南市市長、行政院院長包括我們現在蕭美琴副總統、鄭麗君副院長都提出來要審財化法都提出財化法是一個不公不義的版本但是我們非常遺憾的是到現在民進黨執政第9年了行政部門留一個財化法的版本"},{"start":3515.592,"end":3518.153,"text":"都拿不出來這不是可恥嗎過去提說這是不公不義的版本怎麼現在會變成是一個最好的版本這不是過去的現在的賴總統現在的行政院長打臉過去賴清德市長嗎難道現在不是蕭美琴副總統打臉過去的賴清德市長嗎"},{"start":3542.066,"end":3560.431,"text":"這就是民進黨矛盾的地方又要審預算又不開會又要杯葛所以按照今天的議事程序我們還是提醒主席看一看我們的議事規則第54條之二今天除非有文字上的錯誤否則就應該確認會議記錄我們要開會我們要趕快審二倍預算我們要開始趕快審災害準備期請民進黨當家不鬧事我們立即做"},{"start":3570.415,"end":3575.108,"text":"會議紀錄的確認趕快開始審查預算謝謝好接著請林德虎委員質詢"},{"start":3585.368,"end":3586.31,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3600.468,"end":3600.708,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3617.933,"end":3644.284,"text":"是有錯誤或遺漏為由並須以書面提出來這個到底有沒有委員來提出裡面到底整個議事錄裡面有沒有問題來確認要是沒有提出說裡面有一些這個文字上的問題提出來那我相信整個財劃法的版本"},{"start":3645.832,"end":3658.344,"text":"這次修訂為什麼一定要修因為25年沒有修訂而且現在中央佔72%比地方只有28%那這次的調整我們希望能夠維持60%、40%尤其在過去現在的賴總統他在"},{"start":3672.337,"end":3694.593,"text":"這個過去擔任市長的期間也連署過在擔任立委的時候連署過4次那副總統蕭美琴多達提案跟連署11次那包括行政院的副院長鄭麗君有8次那我相信包括這一次這個"},{"start":3697.386,"end":3709.591,"text":"高雄市市長陳其邁他也希望行政院能夠提出版本來能夠統合中央跟地方的意見再來一起討論時空環境其實25年到現在"},{"start":3714.022,"end":3732.287,"text":"二十八跟七十二七十二是中央二十八是地方那現在要是調整到百分之六十是中央百分之四十是地方讓地方啊能夠多一點自主性我認為這是非常合理但是啊"},{"start":3733.027,"end":3744.935,"text":"中央就是透過我們民進黨現在所有的委員他們現在是把行政院當成我們立法院民進黨就是他們的立法局"},{"start":3746.769,"end":3773.865,"text":"他的思維就是跟過去一樣認為可以為所欲為但是今天你要認清事實我們希望要能夠好好的探討怎麼讓預算能夠順利的通過能夠湖國立民我相信這是大家共同的目標那我希望今天確認議事錄能夠很順利以上接著請吳思堯委員花園"},{"start":3790.979,"end":3792.063,"text":"立法院誰當家?國民黨"},{"start":3796.298,"end":3808.569,"text":"國民黨應當是當家不鬧事的那一方今天我們要提出三分鐘通過才化法三分鐘通過6612億形同每一秒通過的37億四大瑕疵第一沒有逐條討論第二"},{"start":3820.8,"end":3824.102,"text":"未停止討論就直接處理條文進行處理第三、表決違規第四、議事錄的登載也違反規定首先我們回到11月4號星期一"},{"start":3840.951,"end":3850.514,"text":"主席說有讓大家充分討論請問一分鐘討論五、六千億一分鐘怎麼討論國民黨的委員是拍抖音上癮了嗎這種抖音式的問政品質是我們審議國家珍貴預算應當有的程序嗎"},{"start":3867.279,"end":3883.329,"text":"主席在週一財事星期三會邀集地方首長來進行財劃法的意見表述但是星期三就上演了三分鐘通過6612億的版本剛剛國民黨的委員說全文有22個版本國民黨的委員"},{"start":3893.636,"end":3916.582,"text":"同意他們的版本被丟包各位公民朋友財化法經過程序正式交付委員會審查有22版但是有18個版本被丟包國民黨的說法是他們的個別委員同意自我閹割自己的提案"},{"start":3917.122,"end":3920.063,"text":"同意被丟包那我要問請問民眾黨的版本有同意被你們丟包嗎請問民眾黨的版本如果有同意被你們丟包為什麼黃珊珊委員還要在周三的鬧劇之後來對媒體說話她批判這是粗糙的審查"},{"start":3943.652,"end":3947.177,"text":"說到表決上個會期擴全法案讓立法院回到30年前的舉手表決"},{"start":3954.255,"end":3957.717,"text":"上週陳玉珍主持的財化法大家看看財政委員會總共有14位委員可是當天針對快速通過的版本進行複製的表決的時候只有6位國民黨的委員被暢明請問14個委員出席過半通過是多少啊"},{"start":3981.527,"end":3982.687,"text":"這是簡單的數學問題只有六位委員表達唱名不附議請問這是什麼表決而今天的議事錄針對表決的結果"},{"start":3998.334,"end":4002.437,"text":"針對逐條討論是否進行針對當天有沒有停職討論來進行審議完全付之缺乳所以我們主張請依據立法院職權行使法68條當立法院遇有重大爭議事件委員會的處理遇有重大瑕疵事件"},{"start":4028.133,"end":4051.375,"text":"應由韓國瑜院長來召集朝野協商國民黨的委員請對韓國瑜院長有信心才劃法的重大瑕疵應交付朝野協商民進黨主張今天的議事錄不予確立今天的議事錄"},{"start":4052.176,"end":4078.833,"text":"不以確立賴會員委員、財政委員會的委員居然這樣子來包圍其他委員的發言財政委員會的委員不應當成要擔擾的發言請主席財政經濟的意識度不以確立不如還願珍重花園的委員協商請陳玉璇跳麥克風"},{"start":4082.412,"end":4084.335,"text":"請為期報告陳貞昌委好接著請羅明財委員花言"},{"start":4097.74,"end":4124.658,"text":"主席大家好其實剛剛有聽到一個說三分鐘就通過什麼什麼其實不止三分鐘因為過去從上個會期我們已經多次在審查大家都記憶猶新從5月20號開始審查財政收支審法14案這是本人在當召委的時候來主持的6月3號也繼續審查財化法"},{"start":4127.813,"end":4144.967,"text":"六月五號召開財政收支辦法公聽會專家、學者來的二十幾個人都有發言另外在六月五號繼續邀請各地方政府財政局發表意見很多都來了,副縣長都來了"},{"start":4145.808,"end":4166.721,"text":"包括上個禮拜陳其邁、陳市長也來了6月19號也繼續在審查我們最後還通過了決議財政部必須在下個會期就是這個會期開議之前必須要把財政部的版本拿出來10月7號"},{"start":4169.83,"end":4179.953,"text":"陳玉珍召委繼續召開公聽會那與會的委員專家大概20個人都有相繼的發言11月21號陳玉珍委員又繼續來審查20個案"},{"start":4185.835,"end":4212.374,"text":"11月23號繼續審查上次這個案11月4號程序發言總共有59個人發言11月6號繼續審查所以我們可以看到11月7號也都有會所以我們可以看到總共財化法有208個人次發言其實有沒有充分討論"},{"start":4213.695,"end":4224.701,"text":"在整個過去的法律的討論當中大家記憶猶新的是邱毅英、邱偉仁所召集的"},{"start":4225.731,"end":4243.819,"text":"他是在前瞻計畫出審的時候邱毅宜當召委一分鐘宣讀通過所以你一直在笑陳玉珍你不去講那個一分鐘的陳毅宜你一直在講陳玉……邱毅宜你一直在講陳玉珍"},{"start":4244.819,"end":4263.752,"text":"所以事實上最重要的精神是25年沒休了地方都嗷嗷待哺甚至我們現在是在支持賴清德賴總統他當初我們的堅持的確地方需要要有錢要有權"},{"start":4264.693,"end":4284.219,"text":"希望中央的資源可以下放還包括民進黨很多人都提案了所以這次上個禮拜通過的法案不是只有國民黨一個版本一共還有民進黨三個版本都已經通過了所以我們希望各位委員大家冷靜"},{"start":4285.279,"end":4300.788,"text":"因為決戰場不是在財委會充分討論的時間還可以到院會朝野協商大家好好來談一下嘛特別今天很重要今天都是救命錢都是救命錢喔"},{"start":4302.969,"end":4330.18,"text":"114年度直轄市及縣市一般性補助款災害準備金、第二預備金及調整軍公教人員待遇準備預算編列的情況我們希望站在人民的立場好好思考這個監錄再停擺下去停一天、停兩天、停三天真正嗷嗷待哺受傷的是所有的百姓拜託各位委員冷靜的思考謝謝"},{"start":4339.09,"end":4340.192,"text":"主席、媒體朋友"},{"start":4353.568,"end":4371.961,"text":"財務法修法的背景從今審後財政大權都向中央傾斜今審前中央跟地方是6比4但是到如今中央75%地方25%那從今審時代的兩個直轄市23個縣市到現在6個直轄市22個縣市情況已經"},{"start":4382.219,"end":4407.601,"text":"大有改變那地方政府不斷的告窮完全要靠中央垂青我們都有很多委員都有提過財法法的修正在這麼多的提案當中擔任立委的賴清德總統參與提案連署超過4次擔任副總統的蕭美琴"},{"start":4409.459,"end":4429.889,"text":"現在的蕭敏琴擔任立委的時候多達11次行政院副院長也有8次在民國90年賴總統擔任這個當時他也連署了國民黨的主席朱立倫當時擔任立委所提這個修法的草案"},{"start":4431.212,"end":4444.325,"text":"即使在蔡政府跟賴政府的時代民進黨立委也有12次提案提案的內容不外乎就是要說明現在的財化法"},{"start":4445.56,"end":4473.198,"text":"必須要修正賴清德總統他說現行的財劃法是不公不義但是行政院主委院長卻說現在的財劃法是最好的版本那是不是院長打臉總統我想過今天我們剛剛很多委員都有提到對於上個禮拜三議事運作、議事程序"},{"start":4474.758,"end":4496.004,"text":"完全合乎規定在星期一的時候我們總共星期一、星期三的一次會208人次的討論加上所有在5月、6月、10月份、11月份所召開的這些會議當中都經過充分的討論過去"},{"start":4499.557,"end":4519.12,"text":"就連立法院各黨團各立委在財劃法提案的案數多達80件國民黨36件民進黨也有30件親民黨、臺聯、無盟、新黨、實力還有民眾黨等都有各自提案沒有任何政黨缺席"},{"start":4520.578,"end":4530.195,"text":"典政府時代也在91年、96年和97年三度提案馬英九、馬政府也在民國99年101年兩度提案修法"},{"start":4533.55,"end":4561.534,"text":"所以我們現在是在支持賴清德政府賴總統的政見我們是要求來修正我們的財劃法讓我們的地方政府能夠更有效率的來執行各項的業務把中央集權跟集錢的這樣子的印象打破我們是在幫助執政黨請執政黨的立委不要在這邊來干涉議事的運作"},{"start":4564.872,"end":4564.892,"text":"吳立華議員"},{"start":4579.961,"end":4600.52,"text":"財化法25年沒有修所以我們大家都希望好好地將22個版本逐條地來審查但是我們卻落入了欲速則不達的窘境上週陳玉珍、趙偉排了三天要來審查"},{"start":4602.441,"end":4630.478,"text":"星期一大家不斷的做會議詢問程序發言一直弄到凌晨12點星期三我們一開始從主席宣布現在繼續開會到宣告散會總共三分鐘我一個字一個字數這個逐字稿有608個字"},{"start":4633.308,"end":4662.174,"text":"我想說的是這個當中很可惜因為我們真的想要好好的逐條審查22個版本找到對中央地方最適切、橫貧的才化法但是就因為3分鐘608個字處處的瑕疵就像前面許多委員所提到的"},{"start":4663.12,"end":4682.285,"text":"我們看到22個版本有18個版本被丟包我們看到我們在沒有停止討論動議之下結果盡致的來做條文處理剝奪了我們一直在等待期待的實質討論"},{"start":4684.946,"end":4711.592,"text":"在這裡對復議案的處理我們也看到我們出席的14位委員在唱名的時候也只有唱名6人所以像這樣的一個議事結果我相信大家都很清楚我們是覺得應不予確定所以我們有在這邊提案我想說的是剛才有委員提到"},{"start":4712.748,"end":4740.435,"text":"秋毅委員對我們聽到了但是請大家回去查秋毅委員他有補正程序他有重新審查所以我們在這邊也鄭重的呼籲難道我們陳一貞照有做不到嗎所以在這邊再一次跟主席來做這樣的訴求這一次的"},{"start":4741.516,"end":4762.95,"text":"整個會議審查結果應屬無效我們非常的期待能夠交付由院長做黨團協商我們來補正這個結果這個程序讓25年的財化法能夠忙得有結果謝謝好接著請耐斯堡委員花言"},{"start":4771.549,"end":4787.654,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進我剛才仔細聆聽民進黨的委員先進們叫做一派胡言我們來看總共這個案子討論了38個小時將近40個小時"},{"start":4790.595,"end":4805.467,"text":"他們一直在講說要主條沒有主條沒有主條沒有主條笑死人禮拜一晚上我看得非常清楚議事人員要宣讀主條有委員提出了修正動議馬上就搶了施啊下息下請啊國內議員施我們議事人員的在念的那個手上的稿子這是真實情況啊"},{"start":4819.261,"end":4838.516,"text":"民進黨團沒有版本了財政部沒有版本了行政院沒有版本了所以民進黨只會亂才華娃就是一個字叫亂因為他們不要修因為他們做官當皇帝收了錢全部在這裡各位我們在爭什麼啊60、40、75、25就爭15%的決定權"},{"start":4848.571,"end":4873.613,"text":"錢沒有淘空啊但這個決定錢給地方政府我們再做好幾回要選地方首長哦2026年哦你們的態度怎麼樣啊難道你們不希望你們萬一你選上呢你希望你的地方財源多一點嗎我們就在爭一個決定權我們希望25年前的"},{"start":4875.882,"end":4889.85,"text":"六市能夠重審就這麼簡單的事情今天很遺憾的看到啊執政黨他們不斷說哎呀國會多數是律師是國民黨好笑欸請問這個錢誰用啊這個錢都是民進黨在用欸民進黨執政黨欸你們執政黨的錢都是你們在用欸不是我們在用欸"},{"start":4900.717,"end":4929.506,"text":"怎麼會講這樣子離譜的事情呢沒有常識的事情現在執政黨是民進黨行政的執政權這麼很清楚本來上個禮拜好不容易總預算互為了大家氣氛這麼好結果今天擺出來一副就是要幹架的樣子怎麼會你們要當家鬧事呢一直拖一直拖拖我們就陪你啊主席拜託你主席啊你也是地方民代這麼久出來的"},{"start":4931.739,"end":4953.261,"text":"趕快要處理啊 要是那講一堆 當然提案提出來就表決要處理啊你現在 因為你們人少 表決不過 你就來表決大家拖累拖累沒關係 繼續拖 我們就陪你拖怎麼會說今天沒有關係 今天很有關係喔沒有巡查就沒有審查預算了 怎麼會沒有關係"},{"start":4955.1,"end":4974.295,"text":"都很清楚啊今天是什麼錢奧備金、災害準備金、災害妨礙金、防治金以及第二預備金以及軍公教條薪這個都救命錢啊我們不要這樣拖啊真的擺脫這執政黨的立委們啊"},{"start":4975.635,"end":4992.885,"text":"老國臺灣的百姓吧已經立委行銷已經有過不好了啦啊好不容易三個禮拜好水好水啊怎麼這個禮拜開始要來亂的看咧不給過沒關係喔我們就陪你們喔我們待會有我們的底線喔"},{"start":4993.991,"end":5018.329,"text":"我們是以民生為念我們希望趕快審這個預算但是如果沒有的話我們也不容許破壞議事規則議事錄的確定什麼叫議事錄上一次開會的結果把它做成記錄下來有沒有遺漏有沒有錯誤就這樣子而已啊結果還講一些五四三講一堆這個就是啊"},{"start":5020.239,"end":5040.17,"text":"什麼亂啊就找一些理由來亂啊這個老百姓都看得非常的清楚民進黨沒有版本民進黨沒有版本民進黨一直阻撓連念修正道義都不給念大家都看得非常清楚就是一個字亂"},{"start":5041.84,"end":5057.521,"text":"因為他要當皇帝因為他不會把這個權力下放15%的錢給地方政府這才是老百姓很不平的地方最後我再呼籲主席"},{"start":5058.755,"end":5072.866,"text":"你也是地方出來的齁真的地方的財源非常重要快點處理啦齁這個東西有提案我們尊重但是呢大家就來表決啦看看到底怎麼樣嘛好不好"},{"start":5074.586,"end":5088.189,"text":"好 謝謝賴思寶委員在這裡跟賴氏我們這個賴氏中心賴思寶委員提醒一下立法院當家是國民黨是韓國瑜院長好 接著請王毅民委員發言各位委員今天列席的官員各位媒體大家好"},{"start":5098.54,"end":5110.054,"text":"當家不鬧事今天民進黨改寫了當家不鬧事的定義請問現在的執政黨是哪一黨是國民黨嗎還是民進黨執政黨就是民進黨請問當今的總統是不是民進黨的賴清德總統"},{"start":5119.494,"end":5137.739,"text":"所以當家執政不鬧事這麼簡單清楚的道理今天在發言的時候連主席還要這樣子凹一點意義都沒有難道你要否認今天賴清德總統當家的事實嗎?不承認他嗎?"},{"start":5139.179,"end":5153.623,"text":"所以大家看得非常清楚之前財劃法是從今年上半年5月20號的下午就開始啟動整個的討論的程序這當中從5月20號的詢答開始中間還歷經了6次的審查會"},{"start":5161.986,"end":5172.914,"text":"也有21個縣市的代表來到了財委會發表他的意見更是舉辦過兩次的公聽會總共發言的人數有超過158人次開會的時間有37小時又35分鐘民進黨斷章取義說什麼3分鐘這完全是媚於事實的發言"},{"start":5190.988,"end":5213.346,"text":"所以才化法包括這麼多的區域委員我現在在嘉義縣擔任國民黨嘉義縣黨部的主委也任養嘉義縣我們參與委員也是嘉義縣的區域委員難道不覺得嘉義縣的財政非常的困窘中央集權又集權不需要再下放一些預算給地方嗎"},{"start":5215.548,"end":5242.549,"text":"網美會委員是來自嘉義市我相信嘉義市黃明輝市長也一直希望這個中央可以有更多的錢預算分配給我們嘉義市所以我相信很多在地的區域的委員大家都希望財化法中央必須下放更多的預算跟資源給地方的縣市這樣才符合真正地方自治的精神"},{"start":5243.396,"end":5266.438,"text":"所以這件事情還有朝野協商剛剛說沒收了其他這個黨團的版本也通通都是謊話大家在朝野協商就怕民進黨不想端出版本只要有版本大家都可以討論陳玉珍委員也一再的強調所以不用再抹黑不用再扭曲這件事情就應該要讓他繼續往前走"},{"start":5268.14,"end":5276.851,"text":"待會就應該要確認上次的會議議事錄而且今天的總預算涉及到的是救命錢、軍公教的調薪我們更應該要支持讓今天的會議順利的上路開始開會謝謝接著請羅志強委員、花妍"},{"start":5298.871,"end":5321.959,"text":"民進黨封起來連自己人都打民進黨封起來連自己人都打現在是網路上最紅的一句話民進黨要不要去看一看對不對財化法 審個財化法打陳玉珍 打陳永康 打議事人員連吳思瑤都不放過一起打這民進黨厲害啊我們佩服他"},{"start":5324.226,"end":5347.505,"text":"我跟大家講我告訴大家這就是民進黨厲害的地方對不對打陳玉珍然後跟大家講民進黨打陳玉珍跟大家講國民黨不民主民進黨打陳永康然後跟大家講國民黨不民主民進黨打了議事人員跟大家講國民黨不民主連吳秉內去打吳思瑤都是國民黨不民主啊"},{"start":5348.85,"end":5376.139,"text":"還罵我政治癡漢你怎麼不講說今天無比那暴力難呢雙標嘛我都跟我們卓院長說好好關心你的傷勢了民進黨這樣打人是不對的一天到晚示範什麼叫做暴力然後在這邊背一個我們財化法的意思我要告訴大家今天財化法不就是導正過去中央集權又集權賴清德的名言吶"},{"start":5377.847,"end":5399.557,"text":"我們在這裡是貫徹賴清德總統的理念啊信念啊你們這一群民進黨的叛徒你們對得起賴清德總統嗎賴清德總統心心念念要修改財化法欸中央集權又集錢欸對不對你民進黨這多年來光提案修正財化法有30件"},{"start":5401.297,"end":5423.624,"text":"我們的賴清德提案連續4次、蕭美琴11次、鄭麗君8次你們今天民進黨到底在這邊幹什麼啊?要不然回去先打個電話問問賴清德啊請示一下賴清德總統你明明下令中央集權又集錢要去修正這個已經25年沒有修正的財化法"},{"start":5424.304,"end":5433.381,"text":"那現在你民進黨到底在亂什麼呢?所以我跟各位說今天說實在的話就像剛剛王育民委員講的在這邊有很多區域的立委"},{"start":5434.585,"end":5458.478,"text":"以前中央跟地方的這個財源分配中央是6成地方是4成現在中央變75%地方只剩2成5你們都沒有覺得有一點點怪怪的不合理嗎今天達成的結果是什麼很多縣市越來越窮啊越完全仰望今天中央"},{"start":5459.678,"end":5482.056,"text":"地方就越來越窮那中央有錢幹嘛就亂花嘛最近大家看到沒有光電國家這個臺電的那個所謂的那個所有的掏空還有包括今天很多預算亂花今天就是因為中央沒有好好把錢管好因為他把地方該有錢拿走拜託趕快表決啦今天讓我們的議事務通過謝謝"},{"start":5485.057,"end":5486.758,"text":"翁小玲委員不在郭國文委員"},{"start":5503.126,"end":5530.088,"text":"主席剛剛聆聽幾位國民黨的委員其實患了這個失憶症造成了胡言亂語顛倒是非確實從上個會期開始到這個會期我們對財務法有公聽會過沒有錯而這個會期陳俊生當天招委的時候一、三、五確實是一次會但是從來沒有進入實質的討論都是在屬於程序的發言或者是會議的詢問"},{"start":5532.089,"end":5558.852,"text":"為什麼我們抱持這種態度我必須跟大家說明因為財化法本身就知識體大不是那麼容易修改各位或許有所不知其實啊財化法是在1951年的時候訂定他第一次把統籌分配款放進去的時候是在1954年一直到1981年的時候相隔27年之久才有一些正式的修法"},{"start":5560.314,"end":5585.409,"text":"這次的修法當中把中央跟省的部分納進去那後來一直1981到1999相隔18年之久才又會有財法法的重新修法而那一次的修法是為了什麼為了動省所造成的結果所以簡單的講兩次中央的修法不是將近20年就是27年為什麼這段時間不容易修法原因是知識體大"},{"start":5587.433,"end":5606.36,"text":"剛剛也有提到說所謂的中央集權集權臺灣本來是屬於單一體制它並不是聯邦制所以它需要中央政府來做調控來配置來平衡地方的發展根本是這一步伐根本的意義之所在但是國民黨一再的扭曲"},{"start":5607.776,"end":5629.775,"text":"更何況呢從剛剛來說國民黨在討論的這個提案當中內容說如果有問題我們可以提出來可是問題那是內容可是我們今天討論的是程序所有的過程當中我們看到程序出現很多很多的瑕疵包括有22個提案4個修正單位當中只送個4個提案為什麼因為民眾黨被丟包"},{"start":5631.656,"end":5641.626,"text":"民眾黨被丟包的面容當中在今天的會議的這個記錄當中寫得非常清楚藝術錄當中寫得非常清楚後面就沒有民眾黨的提案"},{"start":5643.07,"end":5670.153,"text":"為什麼我們剛剛一直說為什麼只有3分鐘很清楚這個會議記錄當中也寫得很清楚就是90到90零3分這是會議的時間所以說所有內容當中都標示在實質的裡頭但是國民黨混淆視聽的最大的原因是他把那個會議啊定位成所有所謂的黨團的會議並不是真正的財政委員會的會議"},{"start":5672.216,"end":5676.409,"text":"如果是財政委員會議哪個會議議案要怎麼處理都要經過這個主條的討論"},{"start":5679.471,"end":5701.611,"text":"即便職權行司法的法案過程當中我們只有一次性的發言還有逐條討論的空間但是在這個財政收支法問法在委員會當中以委員會中心主義的情況底下我們居然完全沒有討論的空間這就是會議過程當中最大的瑕疵"},{"start":5702.951,"end":5713.78,"text":"會議的瑕疵當然會導致這個結論的有效性這個事情在本委員會當中也曾經出現過本席擔任招委的時候在處理會計法的時候國民黨也提出質疑提出質疑的結果"},{"start":5718.855,"end":5733.672,"text":"我們整個最後決議主動國民黨把那個會議視為無效後來又重新開會這就是民進黨基本尊重程序的態度我們也希望國民黨學學民進黨把這次的會議視為審查無效接著請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":5746.337,"end":5768.645,"text":"主席還有各位委員其實在上個星期五大家都可以看到在行政院退讓然後做出一個合理的預算安排之後在野黨釋出最大的善意在上個星期五大家一致的來讓總預算負為審查但是非常遺憾而且可惜的"},{"start":5775.273,"end":5803.986,"text":"星期五的總預算剛剛付為審查而今天在我們財委會所審查的最重要的最重要的就是救命錢大家可以看到包含災害準備金、二倍金以及調整軍公教人員待遇還有對地方的補助今天就是我們主席所安排的議程"},{"start":5805.322,"end":5806.243,"text":"可是今天你可以看到民進黨突然卯起來來背個議事然後說我們的議事錄是無效的"},{"start":5816.192,"end":5820.393,"text":"確認議事錄其實是所有我們的議事應該的進行而根據立法院議事規則第54條第二項規定議事錄只有在出現錯誤跟遺漏的時候才能要求處理今天民進黨講了一堆程序問題通通不在立法院議事規則議事錄處理的範圍之內"},{"start":5845.197,"end":5850.681,"text":"請問一下我們為什麼要花這麼多的時間來阻擋我們來討論明年我們的救命錢呢民進黨在說要審查預算的時候說要苦民所苦啊急如心火啊結果現在民進黨急如心火的是在這邊搶錢然後在這邊阻擋財化法"},{"start":5873.735,"end":5880.901,"text":"另外剛才也說呀質疑國民黨的程序的問題我在這邊提出在美國111年的時候才委會處理會計法當時為了陳水扁的特別費"},{"start":5892.602,"end":5904.084,"text":"當時民進黨要求議事審查停止審查立即進行處理、立即進行表決然後呢也一樣對當天的會議討論事項立刻停止討論、全案保留、送院會處理民進黨當時為的是什麼為了陳水扁的特別費啊"},{"start":5917.674,"end":5924.725,"text":"那今天國民黨的是為了我們所有地方宣誓我們所有人民的權利啊所以我再一次的懇請民進黨"},{"start":5930.434,"end":5937.497,"text":"苦民所苦啊不要再繼續浪費時間不要繼續做根本違反規定的議事杯葛趕快讓我們進入預算程序的處理因為我們要處理的是救命錢請大家請民進黨不要說一套做一套"},{"start":5957.677,"end":5960.112,"text":"好接著請陳培益委員花言"},{"start":5972.131,"end":5991.293,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請在場的國民黨委員還有消失的民眾黨委員請你們仔細回想一下上個禮拜到底發生了什麼事情如果你們老師會失憶我想要提醒你們國會直播頻道有非常多的影片可以讓你們回去好好的"},{"start":5992.433,"end":6016.745,"text":"上個禮拜不過花了三分鐘的時間你們先是霸佔主席臺包圍陳玉珍主席不知道是要救駕還是要保護她違規的念出這些條文然後所有委員的異議完全不予處理那我們來看一下議事陸上所表現的樣態請陳玉珍委員也是召委喔您可以自己看看到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":6017.265,"end":6021.228,"text":"此外我要說剛剛有委員提到民進黨談財化法你們不斷的提到賴清德總統還有副總統還有行政院但是我想要問一下你們的財化法目前除了想要灌注北部肥厚白藍地方之外你們到底還想做什麼事情當你們喊著中央把錢都拿走了要不要看一看這幾年民進黨"},{"start":6041.485,"end":6066.28,"text":"在非常多地方不分藍綠的執政縣市只要有需要提出需求就會審核過關例如苗栗的財政支援非常非常多的例子如果國民黨民眾黨的委員有失意的可能性非常多的新聞資料庫你們都可以去查一查所以我想要問一下當初國民黨執政的時候對於綠營的執政縣市大小眼"},{"start":6066.94,"end":6095.558,"text":"有重大意外的時候還不積極的協助而如今你們再次提出挖錢法案請問你們居心何在今天本黨有提出有郭國文委員、賴慧雲委員、李坤成委員、吳秉苑委員還有吳立華委員都提出認為上次的會議易事錄應屬無效那我們想要請問你們在我們的提案當中你們有沒有看到自己不動違法的部分"},{"start":6096.478,"end":6099.941,"text":"剛剛本黨有委員提出必須要請韓國瑜院長召開協商針對上一個禮拜三的狀況提出來討論跟協商我想請問國民黨委員你們自己的觀點又是什麼呢而且根據立法院議事規則第53條議事錄應該記載的事項可是我們看到你們只記載了局部"},{"start":6118.155,"end":6135.177,"text":"沒有記載所有議案的決議而且沒有記載表決的方法還有可否之訴嚴重的違反議事規則第53條規定如果你們對於我的說法有任何的質疑我就想要問在場的所有國民黨還有沒有再度缺席的民眾黨委員"},{"start":6136.258,"end":6154.016,"text":"你們可不可以說出到底當天哪些人是贊成的而哪些人又是否定的而針對這些贊成跟否定你們是不是有提出討論完全沒有就快速散會陳玉珍主席就只想快速離開現場我要再次譴責陳玉珍主席這個行為謝謝"},{"start":6159.351,"end":6169.376,"text":"好 謝謝接著我們請葛如君委員花言葛如君葛如君葛如君委員不在蔡宇宜委員花言好 謝謝主席"},{"start":6182.816,"end":6204.202,"text":"我想上禮拜的財劃法的一個修法那我們陳玉珍主席在主持開會那我從一開始就跟陳玉珍講說基本上會議的進行因為相對單位基本上來的是不夠的邀請的也不足比方說在中央的部會你衛福部就沒有來你怎麼去討論到未來關於健保費"},{"start":6209.003,"end":6209.523,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6231.929,"end":6255.453,"text":"九點開始開會到九點零三分就結束了會議然後就把整個財化法送出委員會所以才會有所謂三分鐘所以三分鐘的委員會在主條根本沒有辦法討論我們把地方政府邀請到了這邊你有辦法讓任何一個地方政府讓我們在場的每一個委員有辦法詢問嗎一個都沒有"},{"start":6258.234,"end":6278.274,"text":"一個都沒辦法詢問所以我們還是具體建議國民黨應該要去思考程序的一個重要性你們一直在講說過去在處理前瞻預算的時候委員會也有這個程序不足你們在講剛剛郭國文委員在處理會計法的時候也有程序不足我要告訴國民黨"},{"start":6279.936,"end":6299.008,"text":"這兩個法案的審查最後都退回我們財政委員會重新審查不管是前瞻或者是會計法都是後來在草野協商的時候就直接退回到了我們財政委員會在補足程序所以國民黨勒你們應該在具體的"},{"start":6303.551,"end":6326.345,"text":"應該我們接下來就由韓國瑜院長來協商那我認為財化法既然涉及到了整個地方政府的一個財化的一個分配那我們應該愛好每個地方政府要充分的表示意見像最近大家都有說嘛那為什麼財化法只能用人口來做計算土地面積不重要嗎"},{"start":6327.105,"end":6346.732,"text":"阿像有這個賴瑞榮的版本捏他用所謂的一個汙染的一個這個過去重工業然後汙染的一個狀況那既然都有這樣的一個情況存在我們不能漠視不見阿為什麼還要用過去那一套平行分配的方式造成地方的不公呢"},{"start":6347.432,"end":6369.286,"text":"你知不知道你們這次處理到了垂直分配你們就把中央的預算都給我然後地方政府之間大家要怎麼分大家要怎麼分才是公平的才是安全的並不是說地方只要增加預算這樣就是公平的你看明明說臺北市有首都的3%"},{"start":6370.987,"end":6395.725,"text":"其他的地方政府就沒有這3%那這樣來說起來是公平嗎這個3%一定要保留的必要性在哪裡有說明嗎 沒有說明啊那同樣的預算到的地方如果土地面積比較大的他遇到天然災害遇到颱風遇到地震的時候他需要更多的預算來做災害的復原"},{"start":6396.525,"end":6402.533,"text":"那這樣的話有辦法在我們這一部的財化法展現因為土地面積他要負擔的負擔的是不一樣的嗎"},{"start":6406.346,"end":6427.874,"text":"阿這東西都沒討論那我們就要把他送出委員會所以禮拜三的時候在上禮拜三逐條討論我們就是希望這一些狀況是可以被討論的我有版本阿我的版本你們有討論嗎我的版本說要做農地的一個比例對我的版本你們在這裡都沒有被討論到阿"},{"start":6429.321,"end":6455.802,"text":"我自己有版本啊賴瑞榮有版本國民黨這麼多委員都有版本然後我要再講一個重點欸事實上當天除了國民黨的版本之外我跟賴瑞榮、吳立法有版本民眾黨也有版本欸但是你們最後你們最後把他送出去的你們卻沒有講到民眾黨的版本你們國民黨還有那麼多委員有版本這些版本欸未來又怎樣"},{"start":6457.827,"end":6460.312,"text":"未來他是怎樣啊他是一併送出去"},{"start":6461.736,"end":6489.291,"text":"一併送出去要討論還是他們要保留未來再審理?你都沒說!對!你都沒說!阿民眾黨的版本你就這樣大家跳過去了那你們只是意思意思把我跟賴瑞隆的版本把它送到送到朝野協商事實上他就是沒有討論阿我在朝野協商的時候沒有辦法去確認到我的版本他如果換算在22個縣市的時候他的比例是多少嗎?"},{"start":6490.751,"end":6508.37,"text":"有辦法嗎?沒辦法啊那一類人說如果用污染做一個指標的話他換算到了所有22個縣市的時候每一個縣市應該要作為多少的指標有辦法知道嗎?這個都要在主條討論的時候大家要講清楚"},{"start":6510.336,"end":6529.83,"text":"結果你們就不討論一隻肚子都要攔過攔過、跳過而且用騙的捏用騙的捏你們都說禮拜三事實上在程序上在程序上捏你禮拜三如果給大家討論的話如果禮拜四你還有一整天的時間捏"},{"start":6531.571,"end":6554.383,"text":"後來你禮拜四你那天完全沒有做任何的會議了啊禮拜四就可以處理為什麼你不要在禮拜三的時候給大家充分討論我剛剛說了那麼多的指標這些指標要回到22縣市它所佔的分配應該要佔多少分配這個都很重要"},{"start":6556.258,"end":6572.312,"text":"結果你們這些東西都人過了所以我還是具體建議啦我們既然程序上有這些問題過去遇到這個在委員會沒有充分討論的時候還是會退回到了就會退回我們民進黨當時也是主動退的啊那有啦"},{"start":6578.348,"end":6582.17,"text":"我們還是具體建議啦就是退到了財委會啦你們把這個退到財委會啦"},{"start":6602.547,"end":6621.205,"text":"黃衛給那個育嬰繼續講啦好啦,思敏好啦,所以反正我們就是建議嘛你們過去的時候也有這樣過去前瞻的時候前瞻的時候你們對邱育嬰處理你們認為有瑕疵當時也是退回財政委員會啊"},{"start":6622.828,"end":6643.512,"text":"也是退回委員會審查嘛對啊所以我是覺得國民黨你們不要把法案搞到有瑕疵那換我們就好好處理嘛該好好討論每個人都會有充分的討論嘛每個地方政府有他的堅持啊你們國民黨還是有很多"},{"start":6652.779,"end":6668.968,"text":"好啦是吧那個謝謝啦我想因為那個議議委員他是幹部所以他感受特別深啦特別深那謝謝謝謝蔡議委員接著請張雅琳委員花言"},{"start":6681.786,"end":6711.206,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天我們每一個人的三分鐘如果以陳玉珍過法案的速度我們今天可以過多少法案就是說今天上來這三分鐘的時間我大概要花非常多的時間在闢謠因為其實剛剛國民黨的委員造了非常非常多的謠例如他們說什麼現在不要杯葛預算黨預算都不管了嗎大家都不管民生的救命錢了嗎要以民生為念種種的這些說法"},{"start":6712.166,"end":6721.97,"text":"坦白說過去兩個多月到底是誰在擋救命錢誰在擋民生優先的預算就是國民黨"},{"start":6723.7,"end":6749.41,"text":"再說一次誰在擋民生優先的錢誰在擋國家的總預算就是國民黨再來剛剛還有一直不停的提到就是說財化法25年沒有修了還不趕快修民進黨也有委員題版本民政黨也有委員題版本但是有被好好討論嗎同時這過去25年馬英九政府沒有執政嗎他沒有執政嗎"},{"start":6754.639,"end":6764.832,"text":"那他有修嗎?不要全部都甩鍋到民進黨身上再來整個過程之中一直不停地去強調說我們有造議事的程序"},{"start":6766.414,"end":6793.233,"text":"我想這其實就是國會擴權法案再現啦就是走一個流程但是並沒有進行所有的實質討論因為整個在議事錄上面呈現的就是三分鐘過法案而且呢而且呢而且這個過程之中呢並沒有依照職權行使法第九條第二項來依規定逐條依序提附討論再來也沒有依規定來讓委員逐條發言"},{"start":6796.704,"end":6822.412,"text":"沒有讓在場的委員發言之外也沒有徵詢停止討論下就直接進行處理條文違反議事規則也違反委員實質討論的空間再來也沒有依照規定來進行表決程序睜眼說瞎話從頭到尾點名表決只有點國民黨的委員出席委員總共14人卻只有唱名反對者的6人"},{"start":6823.892,"end":6829.644,"text":"沒有依照簽到簿進行暢明也沒有依照規定點名表決可否均不過半數"},{"start":6832.011,"end":6854.289,"text":"所以我想因為剛剛國民黨的委員一直不停地說要口口聲聲說要幫執政黨非常在乎賴清德總統的想法然後我想那既然助人工作者有一個最基本的概念我來教一下國民黨的委員們就是你要依據被幫助的人的想法來執行"},{"start":6855.57,"end":6869.201,"text":"所以國民黨委員口口聲聲說要來幫助執政黨所屬口口聲聲說要遵循賴清德的總統的想法那我想大家應該有共識我們就依據職權行使法第68條有重大爭議時我們就請韓院長來召開朝野協商那這週的議事錄就無效也無法確定這個議事錄謝謝接著請郭益勤委員花言"},{"start":6882.172,"end":6888.437,"text":"國務卿委員、國務卿委員、國務卿委員不到那接著請陳慶威委員發言"},{"start":6898.724,"end":6922.897,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安這個板子比較大一點但是剛因為聽到許許多多人在講述沒有討論很少討論所以剛剛花一點時間去把這個表格整理出來那這個表格就是我來幫各位委員一起回憶我們從上一個會期就開始關於第11屆的財政收支劃分法修正案的審議概況"},{"start":6924.398,"end":6929.121,"text":"審議概況致敬已經召開了審查會6次、公聽會2次並且安排了一次考察參與審查會公聽會的委員發言次數總共達158人次相關會議起經含37小時又35分鐘我們現在當然又不斷的在延續中會議性質審查會6次有113年5月20號的下午總共有13位委員"},{"start":6954.537,"end":6960.345,"text":"從下午的2點31分一直發表到下午的4點37分113年6月3日有17位委員發言總共從早上的9點03分一直到12點28分113年6月5號"},{"start":6970.899,"end":6982.268,"text":"第一次初步審查會議地方政府總共有21位代表出席充分的表達他們地方政府的需求從早上9點04分一直到10點09分113年6月19日總共有13位委員繼續審查從早上的9點01分一直到11點44分113年"},{"start":6994.838,"end":7013.984,"text":"10月21日以及23日是兩天一次會總共有39人次含會議、詢問、程序發言、繼續審查從早上9點到下午的5點44分113年11月4日、6日、7日三天一次會總共有59人次會議、詢問、程序發言、繼續審查第一天從9點一直到晚上的10點31分公聽會議我們舉辦了兩次"},{"start":7023.507,"end":7043.235,"text":"是113年6月5日總共有11位委員發言還有專家學者9位出席從早上的10點18分一直到下午的1點17分還有113年10月7日總共有6位委員發言公聽會專家學者9位出席從早上的9點一直到11點48分"},{"start":7045.416,"end":7068.226,"text":"考察一次當這個就職典禮的時候財委會還是不忘要工作所以5月20日上午我們考察了財政部近10年中央統籌分配稅款分配各地方政府的情形所以這樣子的討論我想是非常的充分的這個25年沒有休其實我們來回想一下"},{"start":7070.609,"end":7084.097,"text":"二零零一年有一個非常跨黨派的高貴的合作也就是當時賴總統身為賴立委跟朱立倫主席同樣是立議院的同事所以朱立倫主席提出了草案當時還有賴總統時任賴委員來簽署但現在卻翻臉不認人"},{"start":7089.861,"end":7116.579,"text":"所以我們細數下來的話其實賴總統時任賴立委就簽署了4次蕭副總統簽署了11次鄭麗君副院長簽署了8次這個深深的關憂他們在國際形象的問題畢竟這也是他們以前心心念念的法案還有他們的誠信問題我希望在這邊大家一致的去支持蕭副總統以及鄭副院長的法案還可以念出之前蔡政府"},{"start":7118.32,"end":7142.313,"text":"當選以後林全院長講過許多非常有名的金句他說財化法如果不改國家是沒有希望的這就是邁向中央財政正軌的最初步加減法還有地方表面自治但是財政權揉握在中央的手上所以希望大家可以念之蒼生為了我們地方政府的老人家以及小朋友的教育問題一起來努力謝謝"},{"start":7144.794,"end":7165.461,"text":"接著我們請王美惠委員花言王美惠、王美惠、王美惠委員不在今天我們就是剛才的程序花言已經經過這麼長的一個時間那其實有很多不同的意見是不是我們休息討論一下"},{"start":7176.42,"end":7190.907,"text":"休息、休息、協商號、休息、協商會、會給大家開會、休息、協商號今天審的是國家的預備金、跟詐騙大家不鬧事、又喊全城一聲、又喊全城一聲、又喊全城一聲、"},{"start":7224.605,"end":7236.021,"text":"我們現在休息那協商進駐協商各位同仁我們現在休息進駐協商一定要開會一定要開會"},{"start":7263.386,"end":7271.074,"text":"各位同仁我們現在進入協商休息一下休息"},{"start":7638.387,"end":7646.132,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第1屆第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委"},{"start":7665.353,"end":7690.983,"text":"好來各位同仁我們準備開會哈國民黨非常投入也一直要開會哈這個我跟陳一貞不一樣哈那個把官員邀請來了我們就是充分的讓他們去那個做報告那接著我們開始就是請議事人員先讀今日的議程那我先來介紹在場的委員"},{"start":7697.875,"end":7708.084,"text":"進入開會程序尊重委員尊重主席尊重主席尊重主席"},{"start":7714.199,"end":7721.661,"text":"來,請藝術人員先讀今日的議程好不好,請藝術人員。邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計處、審計部長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告。"},{"start":7730.729,"end":7751.196,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第1屆第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20會"},{"start":7752.696,"end":7761.339,"text":"委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席"},{"start":7779.471,"end":7799.847,"text":"請議事人員先讀話會助理、會助理、會助理現在處理體驗請主席現在處理體驗不要違反議事程序來現在議事錄"},{"start":7804.537,"end":7813.787,"text":"確認議事錄請主席確認議事錄請主席確認議事錄請主席確認議事錄請主席確認議事錄請主席確認議事錄請主席確認議事錄請主席確認議事錄"},{"start":7833.395,"end":7852.9,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第1屆第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委"},{"start":7859.042,"end":7873.708,"text":"來各位同仁我們確認議事錄請確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄"},{"start":7881.971,"end":7898.876,"text":"行政院常務副秘書長李國興議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄主席要確認議事錄在程序開會李毅君處長"},{"start":7903.701,"end":7905.422,"text":"主席要確認議事錄!確認議事錄!確認議事錄!確認議事錄!確認議事錄!"},{"start":7929.79,"end":7937.632,"text":"協議院議事陸、協議院議事陸、中央統計處、協議院議事陸、協議院議事陸、中央統計處、協議院議事陸、中央統計處、協議院議事陸、中央統計處、協議院議事陸、中央統計處、協議院議事陸、中央統計處、協議院議事陸、中央統計處、"},{"start":7952.836,"end":7973.583,"text":"律師處喜文壽部長審訊開會律師處楊滿娥主任鄭方氏陳美倫主任我們的主計處詹主任接著介紹審計部審計長陳瑞敏審計長我們的副審計長李順寶"},{"start":7982.15,"end":7988.919,"text":"我們的第一廳廳長、林廳長、第二廳廳長、陳正陽廳長、第三廳廳長、趙成熙客人、總行業全員議事長、王春熙廳長"},{"start":8000.894,"end":8006.64,"text":"第5廳廳長林建智、林建長第6廳廳長葉映晨廳長、葉映晨廳長、葉映晨廳長、王主幹"},{"start":8018.15,"end":8027.252,"text":"確認審計業務研究會執行秘書或執行秘書主席這個程序開會請主席宣派張執行邁書已經列完提案了,怎麼沒有宣傳員嗎?關鍵審計議題發展委員會您執行秘書、執行處、邱處長確認議事錄"},{"start":8043.186,"end":8044.027,"text":"請主席照程序開會"},{"start":8060.498,"end":8081.576,"text":"新區藍安人事室我們的黃主任、協議院議事會會計是我們的王雪林黃主任、政風室我們的李主任、教育農林審計處李香梅處長、商用建設審計處李立新處長、臺北市審查處張處長"},{"start":8088.86,"end":8099.902,"text":"新北市審計處張處長、桃園市審計處張處長臺中市審計處吳處長臺南市審計處陳處長高雄市審計處林處長基隆市審計處朱主任宜蘭市審計處陸主任"},{"start":8120.805,"end":8132.452,"text":"新竹縣審計處黃主任、新竹市審計處劉主任、苗栗縣審計處、審計室郭主任"},{"start":8138.4,"end":8155.707,"text":"張華縣審計室我們的謝主任南投縣審計室我們的楊主任雲林縣審計室我們的王主任嘉義縣審計室我們的陳主任嘉義市審計處我們的魏主任"},{"start":8156.907,"end":8171.475,"text":"屏東縣審計室李主任花蓮縣審計室劉主任屏東縣審計室邱主任澎湖縣審計室莊主任金門縣審計室楊主任好接著我們來介紹財政部國庫署署長陳署長"},{"start":8183.925,"end":8193.865,"text":"那我們行政院人事總處我們的人事長蘇人事長好 謝謝那接著"},{"start":8196.618,"end":8223.588,"text":"那我來介紹在現場的委員那首先我們介紹林德福委員、吳秉岳委員賴世保委員、郭國文委員、黃鴻威委員黃珊珊委員、李坤臣、李燕秀、顏寬涵、羅明才、陳益臻、賴慧妍、吳立華、王世堅"},{"start":8225.589,"end":8250.836,"text":"黃國昌、洪孟凱委員再來還有謝龍介委員在哪裡還有哪些委員沒有交到的還有哪些委員沒有交到的還有吳宗憲委員"},{"start":8254.332,"end":8278.959,"text":"還有吳宗憲委員林思敏林思敏委員郭益勤委員張雅琳委員蔡易宇委員翁曉琳委員還有吳思堯委員"},{"start":8288.838,"end":8294.163,"text":"二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院主計總處、審計部跟所屬單位"},{"start":8308.397,"end":8328.613,"text":"直轄市及縣市政府調整軍公教待役準備金還有災害準備金第二億備金預算案今日請行答那我們先請行政院常務副秘書長李國興報告預算案的內容謝謝請副秘書長上台"},{"start":8338.922,"end":8357.42,"text":"立法委員請讓副秘書長上臺花言好嗎會會處理提案會處理提案我們先讓副秘書長報告預算案的內容好不好"},{"start":8362.71,"end":8369.668,"text":"為什麼不讓官員報告?國民黨委員不是要開會嗎?國民黨委員不是要開會嗎?"},{"start":8372.245,"end":8378.829,"text":"處理提案會處理先讓官員先讓官員進行業務報告先讓官員進行業務報告來 國民黨委員請讓官員進行業務報告不是要開會嗎"},{"start":8394.479,"end":8398.942,"text":"按照意識規則要開會請讓我們的副秘書長進行業務報告按照意識規則會會會處理會處理哈請按照意識規則按照意識規則國民黨按照按照"},{"start":8422.308,"end":8434.397,"text":"來,國民黨委員請那副秘書長來發言好不好,業務報告及內容請尊重主席,議事程序是主席決定的好不好"},{"start":8436.424,"end":8452.547,"text":"議事程序是主席決定的會處理會處理提案要處理提案要處理主席按照議事規則確認議事規則確認議事規則確認議事規則來進行業務報告請按照議事規則請按照議事規則"},{"start":8468.056,"end":8472.499,"text":"請按這個議事規則提案要處理了國民黨委員不是要開會嗎?我們先讓國花會副秘書長進行業務報告"},{"start":8493.728,"end":8501.335,"text":"請各位尊重主席的才色好不好請福利體驗剛剛已經發言完畢了你放尊重一點陳毓正那是背巡台"},{"start":8511.977,"end":8530.351,"text":"你又不是內閣官員你下來啦陳昕臻陳昕臻你下來不要杯葛人家報告啦陳昕臻你不要再干擾自己了啦陳昕臻陳昕臻你不要佔領備詢台啦不要佔領備詢台陳昕臻不要佔領備詢台陳昕臻不要佔領備詢台陳昕臻陳昕臻不要佔領備詢台陳昕臻陳昕臻不要佔領備詢台陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳昕臻陳�"},{"start":8539.918,"end":8561.312,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市"},{"start":8566.595,"end":8581.305,"text":"提案都馬上在後面處理提案哪有在開會就馬上處理提案都馬上在後面再處理中午再處理提案的然後一開始再處理提案的財政委員會同學一開始再處理提案的財政委員會同學一開始再處理提案的"},{"start":8584.307,"end":8599.458,"text":"國民黨財政委員會都在一開始要處理提案了財政委員會都在中午的時候在處理提案了好不好不要亂了好不好 國民黨回去坐好啦 要開會了啦讓官員備詢 讓官員備詢 讓官員備詢陳一貞你不是官員你下來陳一貞下來 陳一貞下來 陳一貞下來陳一貞滾蛋 陳一貞滾蛋 陳一貞滾蛋陳一貞不要霸位置 陳一貞滾蛋"},{"start":8611.638,"end":8621.506,"text":"陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋不要霸佔位置!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳一貞滾蛋!陳"},{"start":8635.716,"end":8644.046,"text":"該吃藥了趕快趕快回去吃藥陳昕正回去吃藥陳昕正回去吃藥回去吃藥回去吃藥去裝牙齒趕快裝牙齒無恥之徒趕快裝牙齒趕快確認意識錄按照意識規則"},{"start":8650.833,"end":8666.946,"text":"陳審牙醫在找你了陳審趕快去看醫生陳審去看醫生陳審牙齒沒有看醫生趕快補牙無恥之徒陳審趕快看醫生陳審無恥之徒趕快看醫生陳審看醫生了時間到了時間到了陳審不要在那邊站位置趕快吃藥了趕快吃藥了趕快吃藥了看醫生陳審看醫生吃藥陳審趕快看醫生趕快吃藥陳審"},{"start":8680.176,"end":8696.704,"text":"趕快!趕快!陳玉珍無恥自圖本席在這裡宣布國民黨委員不讓官員來做報告我們現在先休息先休息休息!"},{"start":8708.482,"end":8715.613,"text":"你喊休息了!你喊休息了!你喊休息了!你喊休息了!你喊休息了!"},{"start":8726.71,"end":8749.24,"text":"人家喊休息了你幹嘛衝上來啊隨便喊休息主席當然可以喊休息啊主席的權利啊我們禮拜一的時候不是也喊休息嗎我們禮拜二、禮拜一你不是也不解決嗎陳昱正禮拜一你不是也不休息嗎我們禮拜一禮拜一你也不休息嗎"},{"start":8761.789,"end":8764.571,"text":"先開會啦!先開會!他不是說要開會!要開會嘛你!"},{"start":8792.508,"end":8801.515,"text":"審碼定!貴碼定!市長你怎麼會這樣?你怎麼會這樣?你怎麼會這樣?你怎麼會這樣?你怎麼會這樣?你怎麼會這樣?"},{"start":8822.709,"end":8836.779,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政委員會第11屆第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會"},{"start":8850.47,"end":8854.412,"text":"違反議事規則 違反議事規則 違反議事規則 違反議事規則"},{"start":8867.318,"end":8868.881,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":8902.082,"end":8916.008,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部北市審計處、審計部北市審計處、審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市審計部北市"},{"start":8920.492,"end":8943.284,"text":"二、審查中華民國第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會"},{"start":8944.644,"end":8963.396,"text":"二、審查中華民國第1屆第2會期財政委員會第1屆第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政"},{"start":8968.66,"end":8987.836,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8996.29,"end":9000.151,"text":"審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部"},{"start":9025.939,"end":9026.7,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11473.551,"end":11473.571,"text":"審議事錄"},{"start":11487.631,"end":11508.464,"text":"來主席確認議事錄主席宣布現在開會了我們中央跟地方很多觀眾都來了所以我們現在要開始開會那我們現在先請確認議事錄讀法會副秘書長上台來我處理提案請先確認議事錄"},{"start":11515.393,"end":11522.379,"text":"國民黨的同仁,既然要開會我們就照程序來進行啊!照程序來進行!國民黨到底要不要開會?國民黨到底要不要開會?國民黨到底要不要開會?"},{"start":11554.984,"end":11575.832,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":11581.331,"end":11602.21,"text":"來我們現在讓國華會副秘書長來報告國民黨國民黨的委員請不要黨開會你們口口聲聲說要開會中央跟地方的官員都來了主席"},{"start":11605.826,"end":11608.09,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":11624.786,"end":11647.964,"text":"來國民黨、國民黨的同仁我們請行政院、行政院常務、副秘書長李國勛、李副秘書長花妍、針對人業務報告、行政院、行政院副秘書長、行政院副秘書長不要動官員!請不要動官員!"},{"start":11652.535,"end":11655.136,"text":"賴世保越來打官員賴世保越來打官員"},{"start":11682.106,"end":11698.284,"text":"賴思寶限制官員人身自由國民黨不要打官員啦你們只是要開會我們也要開會啊大家一起坐下來開會國民黨的委員不要打官員不要打官員賴思寶打官員剛剛看到一個"},{"start":11702.128,"end":11728.024,"text":"讓官員開會干擾議程賴世寶打官員干擾議程賴世寶打官員賴世寶打官員讓官員報告賴世寶不要打官員啦不要打官員報告你不要建置官員的人身自由你不要創下惡例建置官員人身自由創下惡例創下惡例無恥之徒賴世寶委員不要打官員啦"},{"start":11730.548,"end":11731.511,"text":"財政部委員會去報告"},{"start":11736.094,"end":11755.019,"text":"請尊重主席啊要讓官員報告啊居然要搶官員麥克風還限制人家人身自由限制人家自由要開會要開會賴世寶李燕笑李燕笑請坐下馬上要開會賴世寶打官員賴世寶打官員搶麥克風打官員搶麥克風打官員"},{"start":11761.701,"end":11784.715,"text":"搶麥克風打官員搶麥克風、賴世寶搶官員搶麥克風打官員賴世寶搶麥克風打官員而且限制官員發言限制官員發言不讓官員報告不想開會不想開會不想開會"},{"start":11787.697,"end":11802.603,"text":"不想開會不想開會又要搶麥克風了你看暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針暴力針"},{"start":11811.147,"end":11815.191,"text":"瑞士堡打官員瑞士堡打官員"},{"start":11827.402,"end":11837.733,"text":"國民黨不想開會陳毓民說你不要配我陳毓民說你不要配我陳毓民說你不要配我陳毓民說你不要配我"},{"start":11847.644,"end":11855.713,"text":"國民黨李燕瀉、黨軍公教嘉欣國民黨李燕瀉、黨軍公教嘉欣國民黨李燕瀉、黨軍公教嘉欣"},{"start":11862.36,"end":11877.986,"text":"民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨民進黨、暴力黨"},{"start":11889.41,"end":11897.401,"text":"民進黨委員、國民黨委員、國民黨委員、國民黨委員、國民黨委員、國民黨委員、國民黨委員、國民黨委員、國民黨委員"},{"start":11904.591,"end":11910.615,"text":"做程序開會啦!賴世寶打官員!賴世寶打官員!賴世寶打官員!"},{"start":11922.642,"end":11933.69,"text":"陳毓珍別暴力陳毓珍別暴力做程序開會做程序開會做程序開會你們做程序開會"},{"start":11938.513,"end":11967.796,"text":"負程序開會負程序開會負程序開會負程序開會負程序開會負程序開會負程序開會請尊重主席請尊重主席尊重主席尊重主席啊安靜一下安靜一下請尊重主席安靜一下"},{"start":11969.909,"end":11983.694,"text":"安靜一下安靜一下請尊重主席請尊重主席安靜啦安靜啦國民黨安靜一下啦本席本席非常的遺憾國民黨委員確立意思錄不給官員上台確立意思錄這個程序非常遺憾國民黨委員確立意思錄"},{"start":11994.698,"end":12022.17,"text":"在程序開會確認,等會討論到一半的剛剛討論的確認意思錄剛剛已經開到一半了國民黨文常會主委要解釋一下國民黨剛剛已經這是議會的跟法定的你自己帶來的你自己帶來的你自己帶來的你自己帶來的你自己帶來的你自己帶來的你自己帶來的按照程序你自己帶來的按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序按照程序"},{"start":12023.99,"end":12045.855,"text":"院校委員按照程序開會請確認議事錄按照程序請先確認議事錄院校委員按照在麥克風啊院校委員陳述才對主席在這裡做報告國民黨委員按照程序開會不給官員上台不給官員上台"},{"start":12053.718,"end":12072.066,"text":"來主席在這裡宣布國民黨委員不給官員上的牌那現在現在確認議事錄我比陳一貞來的還公正所以確認議事錄確認議事錄"},{"start":12077.308,"end":12089.236,"text":"請你們給官員上臺,如果不給官員上臺的話,會產生疑問。讓我們簽證,簽證休息。一位官員,我們通知你們回來看來。確認議事錄!確認議事錄!確認議事錄!確認議事錄!確認議事錄!"},{"start":12104.844,"end":12105.684,"text":"民進黨不開會!民進黨不開會!"},{"start":12126.093,"end":12127.654,"text":"民進黨不開會!民進黨不開會!"},{"start":12154.883,"end":12161.748,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":12174.453,"end":12194.066,"text":"國民黨非法攜帶武器啊國民黨非法攜帶麥克風國民黨非法攜帶麥克風國民黨非法攜帶麥克風這些人非法的麥克風差異於要把它拿掉拿掉這些非法的麥克風國民黨國民黨違法國民黨違法國民黨"},{"start":12197.868,"end":12205.152,"text":"蔡易餘擋住你是不是?蔡易餘打住你蔡易餘打住你蔡易餘打住你"},{"start":12213.351,"end":12214.912,"text":"在議場怎麼可以用私人的麥克風呢?"},{"start":12228.559,"end":12228.699,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12243.519,"end":12245.521,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部"},{"start":12266.722,"end":12266.922,"text":"臺北市審計局長"},{"start":12281.896,"end":12284.238,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":12300.769,"end":12310.935,"text":"我要把會議那個斷掉!不應該用案子!會議程序不應該用!別動麥克風!這個韓國瑜院長都有講過!韓國瑜院長都有講過的!沒有啊!我現在在用啊!我現在在用啊!不要!我現在在用啊!不要用這個麥克風!不要用這個麥克風!"},{"start":12326.704,"end":12331.025,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市"},{"start":12350.41,"end":12358.498,"text":"我們少數我們也沒有在用麥克風啊,而且你們有啊,我們就跟你說你們人多數,為什麼要用麥克風?你就不給官員發言啊,對啊你們要尊重整個會議程序啊,你要尊重程序啊"},{"start":12373.813,"end":12378.497,"text":"這個是財委會的啊陳一貞拿這個是什麼陳一貞拿的是什麼來陳一貞拿的是什麼來二代"},{"start":12395.689,"end":12404.535,"text":"為什麼都要用私人的麥克風?尖叫機大家帶著麥克風會干擾到別人啊干擾到誰?啊這裡沒有啊現勤換啦,他是現勤換啦麥克風為什麼要用私人的?"},{"start":12414.542,"end":12423.025,"text":"對不對?國民黨在怎樣?我們上禮拜沒有發言,我們有準備麥克風嗎?上禮拜沒有,就是沒有才會有今天的正義啊上禮拜那是程序發言,主調討論的時候有發言嗎?完全沒有!完全沒有!"},{"start":12439.977,"end":12442.178,"text":"為什麼不可以關掉?為什麼不可以關掉?為什麼啊?"},{"start":12467.993,"end":12487.123,"text":"末生違法外交法還是現行犯還任長要求的就是現行犯末生違法外交法還是現行犯末生違法外交法還是現行犯末生違法外交法還是現行犯末生違法外交法還是現行犯末生違法外交法還是現行犯末生違法外交法還是現行犯"},{"start":12490.807,"end":12493.109,"text":"國民黨自己帶麥克風進場啊!"},{"start":12517.07,"end":12519.477,"text":"你們才在干擾啊!自己帶麥克風進來干擾啊!"},{"start":12524.717,"end":12544.795,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":12550.063,"end":12578.258,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市"},{"start":12581.247,"end":12588.851,"text":"民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、民進黨、"},{"start":12607.379,"end":12608.9,"text":"審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部"},{"start":12620.184,"end":12640.892,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會"},{"start":12643.979,"end":12658.041,"text":"陳玉珍拿違法麥克風陳玉珍拿違法麥克風陳玉珍拿違法麥克風陳玉珍拿違法麥克風陳玉珍拿違法麥克風陳玉珍拿違法麥克風陳玉珍拿違法麥克風陳玉珍拿違法麥克風"},{"start":12673.705,"end":12674.125,"text":"公民黨開個記者會"},{"start":12678.956,"end":12707.164,"text":"來來來來來來我們五分鐘之後開記者會用我們的麥克風開記者會來來各位媒體五分鐘之後國民黨要用自己的麥克風開記者會來再過五分鐘四分鐘國民黨要開記者會用自己的麥克風開記者會來國民黨的集合我們用自己的麥克風開記者會"},{"start":12721.995,"end":12727.056,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15044.151,"end":15045.603,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22080.077,"end":22092.79,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":22096.92,"end":22119.581,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14"},{"start":22130.401,"end":22130.803,"text":"委員會議員委員會議員"},{"start":22159.701,"end":22161.568,"text":"、審計部新北市審計處、審計部"},{"start":22185.657,"end":22201.32,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14"},{"start":22231.971,"end":22252.804,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":22291.459,"end":22315.518,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市"},{"start":22320.913,"end":22325.742,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":22346.254,"end":22370.207,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第1屆第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委"},{"start":22374.224,"end":22390.279,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":22401.988,"end":22418.009,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":22442.52,"end":22443.111,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22468.848,"end":22481.061,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北"},{"start":22502.398,"end":22517.579,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":22546.613,"end":22562.599,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13"},{"start":22575.828,"end":22593.023,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":22612.176,"end":22626.596,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":22635.333,"end":22660.912,"text":"二、審查中華民國新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市"},{"start":22661.613,"end":22680.449,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14"},{"start":22689.79,"end":22705.425,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15"},{"start":22720.265,"end":22725.247,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":22747.108,"end":22770.603,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14"},{"start":22776.305,"end":22801.558,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":22802.142,"end":22809.309,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":22855.742,"end":22858.431,"text":"委員會議員委員會議員委員會議員委員會議員"},{"start":22895.89,"end":22916.295,"text":"審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、審計部、"},{"start":22917.775,"end":22943.421,"text":"都不敢離開立法院都還在等嗎?按照這件事﹖所有的地方都還在審計上﹖主計長、審計部、審計在位都在立法院不敢離開我們協議現在會員主席總算回來了主席總算回來了主席總算回來了主席總算回來了"},{"start":22960.359,"end":22962.081,"text":"今天是審計費金的來不回啊"},{"start":22981.952,"end":23002.089,"text":"今天就審單位主管列席業務會議員、單位主管列席業務會議員、單位主管列席業務會議員、單位主管列席業務會議員、單位主管列席業務會議員、單位主管列席業務會議員、單位主管列席業務會議員"},{"start":23012.312,"end":23029.565,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":23033.456,"end":23045.845,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23058.439,"end":23082.358,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":23085.043,"end":23113.644,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":23114.889,"end":23140.766,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第1屆第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委"},{"start":23149.667,"end":23168.023,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":23170.282,"end":23192.709,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14"},{"start":23194.838,"end":23214.208,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":23218.217,"end":23243.637,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":23253.08,"end":23275.422,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":23280.089,"end":23305.721,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14"},{"start":23311.408,"end":23322.329,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23332.705,"end":23356.026,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15"},{"start":23360.845,"end":23389.114,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":23392.585,"end":23415.493,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":23429.172,"end":23441.932,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部"},{"start":23471.681,"end":23492.108,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23512.261,"end":23535.139,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":23554.497,"end":23571.817,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":23580.52,"end":23592.517,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23609.531,"end":23618.268,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":23618.677,"end":23645.978,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":23652.329,"end":23678.138,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":23681.493,"end":23705.021,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":23715.094,"end":23715.215,"text":"委員會議員委員會議員委員會議員"},{"start":23755.964,"end":23781.146,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":23794.468,"end":23804.577,"text":"、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部"},{"start":23809.701,"end":23831.763,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":23832.644,"end":23847.323,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12"},{"start":23854.497,"end":23873.468,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":23892.995,"end":23915.705,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":23917.227,"end":23936.217,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":23943.916,"end":23959.804,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":23970.589,"end":23990.351,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15"},{"start":23993.968,"end":24007.261,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":24012.927,"end":24027.432,"text":"二、審查中華民國10年度中華民國10年度中華民國10年度中華民國10年度中華民國10年度"},{"start":24029.326,"end":24058.416,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":24060.265,"end":24072.142,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24075.64,"end":24101.504,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會"},{"start":24114.07,"end":24131.583,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會議第2會議第3會議第4會議第5會議第6會議"},{"start":24154.292,"end":24174.606,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":24181.493,"end":24206.948,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市"},{"start":24216.51,"end":24244.63,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":24267.793,"end":24268.857,"text":"、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計"},{"start":24291.447,"end":24313.675,"text":"二、審查中華民國10年度中華民國10年度中華民國10年度中華民國10年度中華民國"},{"start":24321.251,"end":24344.508,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":24345.998,"end":24363.78,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24363.78,"end":24384.331,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":24385.572,"end":24405.023,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":24405.043,"end":24420.791,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":24424.673,"end":24449.924,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市�"},{"start":24450.684,"end":24466.854,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":24473.285,"end":24483.259,"text":"審計部臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處"},{"start":24484.053,"end":24509.717,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19"},{"start":24511.51,"end":24533.706,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":24534.275,"end":24552.449,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24552.722,"end":24574.94,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24605.504,"end":24607.886,"text":"喂喂喂聲音很小對不對"},{"start":24632.366,"end":24632.646,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":24645.896,"end":24662.073,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24663.653,"end":24687.82,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":24693.763,"end":24716.766,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24718.319,"end":24746.422,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":24748.319,"end":24773.016,"text":"審計部委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":24779.735,"end":24805.978,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":24812.485,"end":24835.296,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":24842.892,"end":24868.146,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":24871.51,"end":24875.513,"text":"、審計部北市審計處、審計部北市審計處、審計部北市審計"},{"start":24912.261,"end":24927.91,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":24933.285,"end":24959.391,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16會期財政委員會第17會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第18會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第19會期財政委員會第20"},{"start":24965.412,"end":24982.708,"text":"二、審查中華民國11屆第1會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會第4會期財政委員會第5會期財政委員會第6會期財政委員會第7會期財政委員會第8會期財政委員會第9會期財政委員會第10會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第11會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第12會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第13會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第14會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第15會期財政委員會第16"},{"start":25022.162,"end":25032.568,"text":"臺北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計處、審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北市審計部新北"},{"star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永發．數位發展部資源管理司司長劉信源．"},{"start":1806.196,"end":1833.082,"text":"內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長陳瓊旭財政部關務署副署長陳世峰主席萬昭級委員美玲報導事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定二、教育部部長鄭英耀衛生福利部防疫部數位發展部內政部警政署財政部關務署列席就電子煙霧侵校園危害青少年防治檢討進行專題報告並備質詢本次議程由委員洪文凱等二三人提出質詢"},{"start":1834.442,"end":1852.357,"text":"軍醫教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部郭明、健康署副署長賈淑麗、法務部檢察司司長郭永發、數位發展部資源管理司司長劉信仁、內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長陳永旭、財政部官務署副署長陳世豐及相關人員及喜達夫說明。"},{"start":1852.837,"end":1867.604,"text":"六、委員另一届等4委員提出書面諮詢．決定一、報告及詢討完畢．二、委員所提書面諮詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報．三、隊委員諮詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．且相關精神技術與書面答覆．通過臨時提案三項．訓導完畢。"},{"start":1871.742,"end":1874.344,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":1894.204,"end":1900.788,"text":"二年度中央政府總預算決議檢証第二幕一般學術研究及評議預算繼續凍結一百萬元書面報告請查照案"},{"start":1916.823,"end":1941.732,"text":"第五、審查中央研究院函．為113年度中央政府總預算決議．自然及人文社會科學研究．預算凍結100萬元書面報告．請查照案第二案及第三案僅進行詢答首先我們介紹在場委員目前沒有委員在場其次我們介紹與會官員"},{"start":1944.953,"end":1963.717,"text":"中央研究院廖俊智院長歡迎院長副院長周美銀副院長唐唐副院長彭信坤這邊好幾位都是新上任的歡迎秘書長陳軍浩副秘書長林怡君執行秘書邱繼輝"},{"start":1972.792,"end":1999.254,"text":"副執行秘書張典顯副執行秘書兼主任副執行秘書兼關鍵議題研究中心主任李超黃學術諮詢總會副執行秘書呂妙芬數學研究所所長李元斌物理研究所研究員李尚帆化學研究所所長吳台偉"},{"start":2001.755,"end":2030.612,"text":"地球科學研究所所長鍾孫玲資訊科學研究所所長廖鴻元統計科學研究所副所長黃信成原子與分子科學研究所所長魏晶明天文及天文物理研究所所長彭威理應用科學研究中心主任魏培昆"},{"start":2032.928,"end":2035.373,"text":"環境變遷研究中心主任陳於高。"},{"start":2038.36,"end":2045.203,"text":"新聞科技創新研究中心主任．植物及維生物研究所所長吳素心．細胞與個體生物學研究所所長李齊鴻．"},{"start":2063.371,"end":2086.072,"text":"生物化學研究所所長呂同瑞生物醫學科學研究所所長陳怡莊生物醫學科學研究所研究員烏哲元基因體研究中心主任李志浩分子生物研究所所長陳懷榮"},{"start":2093.966,"end":2106.256,"text":"農業生物科技研究中心副主任葉信宏生物多樣性研究中心主任陳國清生醫轉譯研究中心執行長楊瑞兵"},{"start":2107.797,"end":2120.011,"text":"台灣人體生物資料庫代表人楊淮一﹑歷史語言研究所所長李貞德﹑近代史研究所所長雷祥林﹑"},{"start":2122.093,"end":2148.49,"text":"經濟研究所副所長楊淑君﹖你好。歐美研究所副所長王志明﹖你好。我待過的社會學研究所所長陳志柔﹖你好。中國文哲研究所副所長何建興﹖你好。臺灣史研究所副所長林文凱﹖你好。語言學研究所所長林若旺﹖你好。"},{"start":2149.81,"end":2173.34,"text":"政治學研究所所長吳崇禮法律學研究所所長李建良人文社會科學研究中心副主任詹大謙數位文化中心召集人陳希遠院本部秘書處處長曾國祥院本部總務處兼男院服務處處長兼代處長張剛偉"},{"start":2177.625,"end":2198.394,"text":"院本部法治處處長劉秉興。你好。院本部學術及儀器事務處處長陳建章。你好。院本部國際事務處處長孟子清。你好。院本部資訊服務處處長陳林志。你好。院本部制裁計轉處處長邱文聰。你好。"},{"start":2201.855,"end":2216.234,"text":"院本部主計室主任羅友聰,您好。院本部人事室主任周佩芳,您好。院本部政風室主任洪信志,您好。行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員李培元。"},{"start":2221.26,"end":2223.563,"text":"行政院主計總處基金預算處專門委員黃厚吉現在請廖院長進行報告,院長有10分鐘請"},{"start":2243.975,"end":2256.333,"text":"感謝大院邀請我們來這邊做業務報告並解凍預算及預算報告下一頁我們針就我們簡單的願務運作跟大家做個報告詳細內容請參照書面報告"},{"start":2259.557,"end":2284.578,"text":"我們在今年7月舉辦了第35次院士會議那這是在新冠疫情後再次以全體全實體方式召開共有近200位院士參與其中我們選出了第34屆院士暨名譽院士新科院士26名人數為有史以來最高名譽院士2名下一頁"},{"start":2286.158,"end":2313.917,"text":"我們最近也成立AI推動辦公室推動跨域創新整合其中包括幾個大項AI for PI、AI for全部的中央醫院的同仁我們進行多場研討會近期重要的成果包括緣分所利用短波紅外螢光開發了次世代用於螢光標定細胞的分析技術"},{"start":2315.339,"end":2333.126,"text":"地球科學所與德國地球科學研究中心合作研究了蛇紋石的非均向性影響中層地震之分布應科中心與輔仁大學國泰醫院等團隊合作"},{"start":2334.175,"end":2336.096,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":2355.686,"end":2375.538,"text":"生物多樣性中心與國立臺灣大學國立成功大學法國國家科學研究中心組成的跨域研究團隊首創山區氣候變化速度計算的模式破解了氣候的一個很重要的問題生物化學研究所"},{"start":2377.447,"end":2393.897,"text":"結合低溫電極顯微鏡直譜小角度X光散射提供關鍵的實驗找出了Clio Shield一個方法來量化、來描述蛋白質糖一的遮蔽效應與生物的意義。"},{"start":2397.121,"end":2413.521,"text":"分子生物研究所首度發現活性氧化物所造成的鐵死亡觸發波解密了大規模細胞死亡之謎找到了胚胎發育的新線索。在人文組方面"},{"start":2414.534,"end":2425.767,"text":"民主所副研究員郭佩瑜、鄭偉寧兩人出版了《邁向治理與世界構作的人類學,比較難導觀點的專書》。"},{"start":2429.701,"end":2456.152,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":2458.666,"end":2467.956,"text":"在原住民研究方面我們極力推動原住民族研究培訓計畫培育具原住民身份之學術研究人才"},{"start":2469.062,"end":2490.453,"text":"今年在講注4名博碩生中已經有2名碩士生為原住民籍此外我們也持續推動部落工作策展透過特展與部落齊老部落工作者進行文物資訊之刊物補充及利用特殊工法文物修復讓珍貴的歷史文物得以再現"},{"start":2498.021,"end":2523.018,"text":"我們的很多同仁也得到重要的學術獎項比如說王德威院士及人設中心的陳祖維特聘研究員雙雙獲得英國國家學術院的國際院士的榮賢生醫所謝清河特聘研究員榮獲永信李天德醫藥科技獎緣分所謝家龍副研究員"},{"start":2524.295,"end":2528.557,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":2541.141,"end":2555.128,"text":"也推出博士生獎勵調生方案。繼1至112年起辦理博一至博二生現在平均4萬元每個月4萬元博三至博五的研究生平均5萬元。"},{"start":2556.55,"end":2578.844,"text":"我們也開辦了TIGBX來延攬國際的研究生及研究人員並且推動國際合作經過幾個月的努力我們已經有來自美國、英國、日本、法國、波蘭等國的26位優秀博士生來院進行研究"},{"start":2581.638,"end":2596.725,"text":"此外我們也推出人文社會科學博士菁英獎學金在12年推出113年實行今年選出了得獎共16名包括臺灣大學政治大學臺灣師範大學及台南藝術大學的博士生"},{"start":2599.127,"end":2618.187,"text":"我們也推出中研學者計畫在國內大學副教授以上55歲以下中生代優秀學者可以給予穩定充沛的經費在原單位執行具有原創性的研究計畫執行期間以中研學者名義合併至本院與本院展開合作"},{"start":2621.209,"end":2645.947,"text":"我們持續與大學合作學分學程栽培科技人才這包括辦理國際研究生學程包括開設國內博士班學位學程及在人文社會科學領域我們有與國立清華大學合作推出的中國研究學程與台灣大學、政治大學、清華大學合作推動的公共議題與社會學的學程"},{"start":2650.424,"end":2666.614,"text":"我們人文講座也舉辦了10年至2014年起陸續與國內生醫專業為組織大專院校合作基金已有10年替這些以生醫專業的大專院校開設人文講座"},{"start":2667.608,"end":2678.385,"text":"我們也舉辦暑期研習營實習活動在各研究所中心每年舉辦暑期研究營提供全國大專院校學生學習與參與學術研究的機會"},{"start":2684.467,"end":2699.777,"text":"兩部院區也在幾個禮拜前正式開幕那因應是社會科學及世界的快速變遷與各項難題我們期待從基礎研究開始整合"},{"start":2700.658,"end":2713.788,"text":"各研究所中心的能量有重要的突破。我們已經選定數個關鍵議題並且期待以科學到行動的精神把研究落實到社會的應用。"},{"start":2719.079,"end":2740.789,"text":"此外我們也建置了南部院區的人文社會研究基地設立數位圖書檔案室共享本院學術及研究資源那有了這個檔案室在南台灣的相關研究團隊就能夠到南部院區不需要舟車勞頓到北部院區來查看我們的檔案"},{"start":2742.441,"end":2751.435,"text":"台思索也舉辦了南方島嶼人文的檔案特展在南部院區已經盛大展開"},{"start":2754.412,"end":2772.068,"text":"國家申請研究委員區持續舉辦兩屆的Pitch Day及Demo Day聚焦以科技驅動的精準醫療應用與照護並且打造新創生醫生態系與學術研發成果的這兩個創主題"},{"start":2776.445,"end":2803.664,"text":"我們持續進行跨國合作的學術研究比如說我們參與巨型麥哲倫望遠鏡的計畫與比利時列日大學演化與移動多樣性實驗室合作並且參與德國波洪魯爾大學跨國研究我們也積極推展國際交流前瞻全球學術動態出訪了很多國家下一頁"},{"start":2805.75,"end":2833.83,"text":"除息了中座科學院的全體大會下一頁那我們也在研究之餘期待能夠替社會解決關鍵議題下一頁我們也多方傳播科普知識譬如說我們連續五年響應國際博物館日開放博物館而且中研講堂今年於苗栗高中舉辦"},{"start":2836.628,"end":2851.065,"text":"閱區開放連續27年吸引了很多觀眾今年特別又在南部院區舉辦這個院區開放在上個禮拜五盛大舉行最後我們簡單報告預算編列的行情"},{"start":2854.938,"end":2881.394,"text":"本年、今年的預算143億元左右預算重點在量子科技、AI與各領域的研究近鄰科技研發、資安整備及危老建築整修。下一頁本面科研基金預算收入主要為勞務收入及政府撥補。下一頁支出部分主要為研發能量提升計劃及科研環境領航計劃。"},{"start":2883.269,"end":2903.787,"text":"解凍預算暨兩案．包括一般學術研究及評議繼續凍結100萬．及自然及人文社會科學研究凍結100萬．兩案書面報告資料已依規定函送大院。謝謝。好,謝謝院長精彩的報告。院長請回。好,OK。"},{"start":2909.883,"end":2916.468,"text":"現在我們進行綜合詢答每位初席委員質詢7分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘如果沒有異議的話那我們發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分"},{"start":2929.979,"end":2950.229,"text":"委員如有臨時提案,請於上午10點30分前提出,並於本會委員范雲質詢結束後進行解凍案及臨時提案處理。處理提案時,若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場,原例不予處理。首先,我們請發言登記第一位洪孟楷委員質詢。"},{"start":2958.393,"end":2961.497,"text":"主席謝謝阿芬請廖院長好有請院長"},{"start":2966.668,"end":2987.568,"text":"院長好,院長是這個會期第一次見到您,台灣最強大腦都在這邊,非常好。我想院長我們還是就較相對專業的問題,因為我認為是說中研院就是本於科學本於專業來去做一些判斷。那最近國際很關心剛當選的美國總統川普,"},{"start":2989.83,"end":3014.159,"text":"他其實在競選期間有可能都一直強調是所謂淨零碳排等等的相關議題他有他自己的獨特的見解包括說明年1月就任之後他可能又要再退出巴黎氣候協定那院長您認為現在大家都關心2050淨零碳排以及我們相關的這一些方向川普的上任會不會對於全球的這個淨零碳排的一些政策有什麼樣的一個影響"},{"start":3015.457,"end":3038.617,"text":"我想這個這全世界非常關注的問題假如依川普所言他要再度退出巴黎協定的話那確實會對2050年這個敬禮的目標有一些衝擊那國際上也必須為這樣的一個狀況做出相對的反應那這是全世界所有學研界包括政治界人物都在"},{"start":3039.958,"end":3043.101,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":3060.197,"end":3085.428,"text":"甚至有沒有可能連帶的我們台灣自己的一些能源政策也有受到一些波及尤其是美國在10月15號的時候他們曾經又在講到是說其實他們也對於針對淨零碳排有針對蠻多的努力包括說他們要重啟關閉的核電廠因為要因應電力需求快速成長並且減少碳排放那來院長您自己怎麼看"},{"start":3086.377,"end":3108.533,"text":"我覺得這是美國多方面想解決這個淨零碳排的問題但是以川普的角度他又不希望說影響美國的經濟他們所做的努力所以經濟也好或者是碳排的能源提供也好其實都是一個人類需求要尋求一個平衡點對不對是的好"},{"start":3109.353,"end":3126.774,"text":"現在國內我們在兩個禮拜前也有看到就像中火的一個事件中火二期的環評案民進黨過去是承諾說要關一個燃煤廠增加一個燃氣廠但是現在說增加燃氣廠可是燃煤廠還沒有要廢除"},{"start":3130.037,"end":3156.775,"text":"直到卓龍泰院長現在才承諾講說2032年等四部燃氣廠機組完成之後才來檢討燃煤廠要不要存廢。那麼某種程度上燃煤也好燃氣也好其實都是火力發電。院長我覺得能源議題是沒有任何政治立場而是都是需求因為大家都要用電。那我們現在核三廠二號機稅休的情況全台現在已經實質進入非核家園。"},{"start":3157.515,"end":3175.871,"text":"而看到數據來講日常的時間火力發電高達八成以上因為我們現在在這裡面還沒有20%嘛而如果說到夜晚期間太陽能沒有發電風力又減弱的時候更是有高達九成甚至九成五都是火力發電火力全開"},{"start":3177.63,"end":3205.868,"text":"您之前2022年中研院也有提供相關的淨零碳排的一個資料我們講說全台的碳排有80%、90%來自能源部門也就是所謂的火力發電那你這樣子台灣不就是在跟世界潮流走倒退路嗎我們這樣子怎麼有辦法能夠說2050越來越近每過一天就離2050更近一天我們希望淨零碳排但實際上我們的能源政策卻是背道而馳"},{"start":3207.21,"end":3230.698,"text":"我解釋一下,這個火力發電燃煤燃氣雖然都排碳可是燃煤的排碳量比燃氣高出兩倍,約兩倍所以在現階段把燃煤轉成燃氣仍然是全世界各國盡力努力的一個目標就像我們在大海中航行沒有辦法"},{"start":3231.118,"end":3258.643,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":3259.532,"end":3275.706,"text":"院長你突然搖身一變變航海專家了本席我以為我們在討論的是能源政策不過院長本席就想要好奇的請教就連賴總統都召開國家氣候變遷對策火源會並且說第一波也要把中研院納入所謂的節電指標是的"},{"start":3277.227,"end":3279.728,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":3297.489,"end":3312.647,"text":"那我想請教現在氣候變遷對策委員會也已經快一個月了嘛那中研院這邊有收到指示我們明年的KPI還是明年的指標到底中研院我們給的具體是要節電多少"},{"start":3315.929,"end":3334.058,"text":"我們是沒有受到具體的指標不過我們已經主動在做了兩三年了我們每年都有節電比賽沒錯 院長你講到重點啊節電是大家過去五年十年都一直宣傳隨手關店隨手關店根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的台灣最強大腦"},{"start":3341.012,"end":3367.552,"text":"總統根本不需要做這件事情你已經承認了過去兩三年大家都在做那為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事總統主持所有部會首長一次排開到最後得出的結論不是減少火力發電不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗的排碳來源而是大家在節點電啊隨手關燈啊不要浪費能源啊"},{"start":3368.837,"end":3392.149,"text":"會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情沒有對症下藥我想這應該是先從這個全民意志開始然後漸漸的就會觸及到一些所以您覺得過去到現在我們還沒有全民意志大家都還不知道節電的重要性倒不是就是說還有加強的空間我這樣質詢其實凸顯什麼我想您是聰明人"},{"start":3395.302,"end":3403.005,"text":"通顯科學方法做實驗也好或是任何你沒有看到問題不去解決問題面對問題你只想著旁支錯節我沒有說這兩個是衝突的喔減碳不要火力發電減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇"},{"start":3417.31,"end":3435.137,"text":"而核能絕對不是取代再生能源核能是要取代火力發電讓排碳大的降低一點再生能源持續成長所以發展核能也好或是美國現在重啓核能跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電是吧是的"},{"start":3438.379,"end":3465.677,"text":"您是院長,我期待的是最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷。如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷,只是死抱政治意識形態的話,我覺得台灣會很危險。跟委員報告,這些都在委員會裡面就開始陸續討論。我也分了七組,現在這個分組開始討論。院長,因為我時間有限,我再另外一個問題。"},{"start":3466.798,"end":3493.734,"text":"今天我看到是說我們的院士到目前為止有298位那研究員的部分就是就我的資料是1015位但是其中研究人員過去到現在大家一直強調是說研究人員好像沒有法制化會讓大家覺得不夠透明為什麼這樣講呢?因為研究員有分副研究員、研究員、特聘研究員"},{"start":3494.494,"end":3508.07,"text":"那請教到目前為止1015研究人員裡面我們特聘研究員的人數有幾位?請人事主任回答。我們特聘研究員有九十幾位。九十幾位。九十幾位是幾位?"},{"start":3509.512,"end":3536.103,"text":"連主任來都沒有辦法精確的回答是99位好 院長本時候怎麼突然問這個問題從過去立法院在105年106年都有曾經關心過就是因為我們當然人才要馬而好一定要馬而吃草這個我完全同意我們一定要尊重人才的招聘我們也希望給更好的待遇那但是你們在給我們的這個人事費用裡面"},{"start":3536.883,"end":3562.475,"text":"你只有人事維持的人事費總共一大筆28億27億28億的經費連同你另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億你光中研院一年100多億的預算你有一半都是用在人才相關我覺得人才相關沒有問題但重點在於是人才的給予有沒有一致的公平性以及法制化以及標準"},{"start":3563.295,"end":3591.244,"text":"我們院裡面的深等考核都有非常完整的一個制度在各級都有很嚴格的審查所以這個我們已經行之有年了是但是到目前為止外界之前因為有一些比較眾所矚目的人才去變成是我們的特聘研究員的時候大家就會懷疑說他的月薪是不是一個月50萬60萬等等的那我們大家外界就會好奇啊"},{"start":3592.109,"end":3609.075,"text":"我們院裡面的所有的這個升等考核陳若剛才講的所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎?不是是啊本期現在在講就是說99位的特聘研究員裡面待遇有高有低而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到"},{"start":3609.815,"end":3633.766,"text":"那這樣子會不會就讓外界因為過去其實不是我第一次講我相信之前105年106年就已經有委員在教育委員會裡面有提相關的提案認為是說應該要透明化法治化那這是有一定的標準這是誠如剛才這個委員講的就是人才我們要跟國際競爭那國際上這個高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣"},{"start":3634.286,"end":3651.3,"text":"不可能說所有的大學教授都一樣的金稅。但是我的意思是說還是要有標準啊,否則的話這樣子我們怎麼能夠認定是說到底你今天,你看剛剛99位特聘研究員裡面,你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣。"},{"start":3652.2,"end":3669.996,"text":"到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的一個薪資特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資你的標準還是沒有啊這也是過去讓外界還是持續覺得說沒有透明的主要原因啊院長過去有提過說希望能夠法治化這有沒有可能法治化"},{"start":3676.562,"end":3677.123,"text":"二、審查114年度中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":3693.645,"end":3717.896,"text":"人種的專業家計表9的規定單位。沒關係你相關的資料可以給本席我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法治化的部分以及讓外界覺得是說你一筆28億人事費用一千多人但是他到底的一個這個薪資大約是怎麼樣這一定要釐清好不好謝謝洪孟凱委員的質詢院長請回好謝謝"},{"start":3722.223,"end":3733.834,"text":"我們現在有現場有三位委員,我們確定一下上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處。沒有。沒有,那議事錄確定。我們現在請柯智恩委員質詢。謝謝莊委,我們是不是請院長。好,有請院長。"},{"start":3744.751,"end":3759.556,"text":"科學院長早 院長早我想我延續洪孟凱委員的一個能源的問題因為你目前是國家氣候變遷對策委員會那大家都其實非常期望這個我們全國學術的良心其實在能源的政策上面是應該給我們當權者一些最"},{"start":3762.617,"end":3764.418,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案。��"},{"start":3781.727,"end":3783.769,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案"},{"start":3803.667,"end":3807.389,"text":"但是呢不管是怎麼樣你看這將以天然氣為原料勢必我們未來要更仰賴我們的天然氣但是呢我們增加更多的天然氣我們就要問了我們還有更多的空間可以來新建天然氣接收站跟儲存槽嗎這會不會跟我們減碳的這樣的目標會有所抵觸呢"},{"start":3822.355,"end":3822.575,"text":"二、審查11"},{"start":3843.697,"end":3844.677,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":3870.689,"end":3871.029,"text":"adequation to"},{"start":3901.21,"end":3907.954,"text":"但是其中大部分是用來購置5M的發電設備。購置設備,它不是用來研發技術,它的設備只是用來做一個demo。"},{"start":3920.724,"end":3942.537,"text":"但是你特別也特別提到的你還是目前還是很希望說這樣的一個投資技術跟未來我們的這樣整個能源的趨勢是可以吻合的那你也希望有更加的民間的投資能夠進來那目前民間的投資的進步狀況到底是如何那這個10億跟委員報告裡面只有這個不到一半甚至不到4成3成是用來做研發"},{"start":3943.678,"end":3944.378,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":3964.648,"end":3980.514,"text":"如果有這麼好的興趣的話為什麼到目前為止都還沒有人有進一步的投資的一個動作如果這是未來的一個趨勢表示目前為止問題還是非常的多院長這是我說的這個務實比理想還要更重要特別是我們的資源我們的經費而且你看到時候你們還要建制時間越過可能要到3到4年的時間了你看比那更長"},{"start":3986.636,"end":3987.997,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央科學研究基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":4009.888,"end":4010.969,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4034.804,"end":4050.213,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":4050.353,"end":4067.672,"text":"事必要考慮核能未來可能佔據新科技的一個核能可是我要問的就是請問當局者到底聽進去的多少同董事長他覺得是有點受挫這個廖院長你身為在一個重要的一個角色你對於目前的"},{"start":4068.453,"end":4072.594,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。netesi,您也秀出來,我們目前用電量是2800億度。目前假如說核二、核三再重啟的話,發電最多300億度,離2800億度很大的距離。除此之外,我們再生能源也"},{"start":4091.141,"end":4092.522,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4112.811,"end":4127.967,"text":"新的核能的問題他連討論在問到裡面前後都是非常的不一致所以我們才是希望你們這些的建言用科學的證據能夠來說服我們現在的職長你像魏徵一樣你是像魏徵對不對這個技術面的討論事實上已經開始了那這個我們的角色這中央研究院的角色是提供技術科學層面的建言"},{"start":4136.536,"end":4142.617,"text":"但是那院長你會看到執行的成本你會發現你的建言很顯然是被當成耳邊風而且我還要特別提出來好吧那我們就看看下次我看到你的時候那個討論到底到了個什麼樣的程度就譯入我上次問你的時候你告訴我民間的單位可能也會想要來投入我們這個巨蛋燃金的這個部分但是"},{"start":4162.981,"end":4170.883,"text":"但是還是有很大的距離我還是要因為時間的關係我們還是要問一下這是跟中研院有關聯的因為有關於對不起我們看一下就是你們特別提到的這個風電的部分為什麼要特別提出這個問題呢因為你們在這個有個非常著名的natural portfolio裡面特別提到風電會帶這是在一個非常好的一個一個所謂的科學研究的期刊裡面特別提到我們的風電是對我們的人體會造成非常大的一個影響嘛那目前為止即使有這麼好的研究出來"},{"start":4191.73,"end":4211.625,"text":"可是很顯然我們到目前為止只是研究發現但是我們在我們整個環境的改造上面並沒有做出任何的一個改善這是我覺得最遺憾的地方中研院不缺所謂的研究成果但是研究成果已經告知了我們的政府之後其實並沒有被好好的採用好我們先來看看下面一個有關AI的浪潮這個中研院也釋出這個AI的一個模型但是過去呢曾經有點出錯因為你們用了太多的database裡面都是來自於中國的"},{"start":4221.613,"end":4224.274,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究基金附屬單位預算案"},{"start":4240.643,"end":4245.546,"text":"有了我們再看一下因為時間只剩下我現在我們主席非常重視時間你看因為我個人覺得啦我們應該這也都可以同意來回答我們應該來建造更多的這個中文資料這個database我們都認為比這個模型彼此之間不互相違背但是這個database如果不進入的話你看看全球最大的語言模型的bloom裡面中文訓練資料比繁體中文只佔0.05欸簡體中文佔16%欸"},{"start":4269.739,"end":4270.54,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":4291.603,"end":4304.836,"text":"三萬這個部分如果你只是在發展這個語言的模型跟優化的話我覺得對於所謂的資料的一個建構如果沒有同等量的來去做的話你看目前為止只有0.05這樣如何能夠讓全世界能夠再一輸進去即使有這麼好的一個模型輸進去的話你呈現出來的沒有足夠的我們台灣的這個的語言這是一個非常遺憾的事情"},{"start":4315.606,"end":4316.407,"text":"elcome to the"},{"start":4333.106,"end":4333.566,"text":"院長請回,謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢。我們再來請葉元之委員質詢。"},{"start":4364.573,"end":4364.695,"text":"麻煩請院長謝謝。"},{"start":4371.044,"end":4392.338,"text":"院長好,我們先來看一下中研院最近編的那個國外的旅費有發現就是它有大幅的成長,譬如說你看明年的預算跟今年的就成長非常多今年是9969萬,明年是已經到了算是1億6697萬,這麼多啦請問一下這個預算為什麼會膨脹到這麼多"},{"start":4400.395,"end":4421.228,"text":"這個有很多理由那主要我們分兩部分一部分是研究人員的需要由於疫情結束所以全世界這個很多研究人員都必須要到世界各地去跟合作夥伴繼續進行研究那彌補過去4年來的研究的空缺另外一方面國際間對跟台灣"},{"start":4423.71,"end":4450.374,"text":"科學研究的合作興趣也大為提高所以這兩個因素加起來我們的國外旅費的需求就增加我們請主記來講一下跟委員報告一下就是在編列的時候114是參考12年的執行情況那12的時候是剛好因為111的時候疫情結束12就恢復到正常的水準所以在編列的時候就參照1、2的執行數來做編列以上"},{"start":4451.696,"end":4465.717,"text":"好,所以你講說膨脹那麼多是因為國外研究的需求是不是,然後跟去國外的交流嘛,但是這個部分你看那個大陸的旅費就很少,你去大陸大概是450萬左右,這個比率非常低啊?"},{"start":4466.516,"end":4489.641,"text":"那現在到底是因為什麼原因?是大陸比較沒有什麼學術的?倒不是倒不是那還是說兩岸的氛圍不好還是抗中的原因怎樣?這些我們的經費編列都是由下而上根據研究人員研究的需求所以可見就是說你們現在對於研究大陸兩岸的這部分其實是沒有什麼興趣的"},{"start":4490.481,"end":4491.983,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4509.591,"end":4511.754,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":4530.821,"end":4549.435,"text":"業委員好,那個寫的是我們最初簽約的時間,所以其實我們一直都還有在簽約。就沒有簽新的約了嘛。最近還跟北京大學的那個歷史系序約,還沒有寫上去,剛剛已經簽訂了。我們了解好像2018年還有一個跟法國的有簽約,也沒有寫上去。"},{"start":4550.155,"end":4567.357,"text":"所以這個網站是內部參考還是不好意思我們應該要跟著你的但不管怎麼樣啦就算把2018年那個法國寫上去或者是您剛講跟北京簽約但我們看起來就是從2016年之後新簽約的就是比較少嘛"},{"start":4567.797,"end":4586.163,"text":"還有新的都沒放上去日本的中央文庫也剛剛清理了都沒有放上去很抱歉我覺得因為大家都知道中研院的近代史研究所其實在研究中國近代史還包括像228清代史其實都非常有名而且是很有成就"},{"start":4586.903,"end":4613.885,"text":"那我是其實希望說可以增加這方面的研究啦特別是可以兩岸多一點交流像剛剛那個旅費450萬其實就太少了對不對應該多交流嘛因為現在當然也不用怕政治性的干擾啦因為我們的總統已經宣誓了嘛中華民國就是113年嘛這跟過去民進黨比較認為中華民國只有75年的歷史關係不一樣那既然已經113年我們應該要把失去的那40幾年把它補回來到底這40幾年"},{"start":4615.126,"end":4633.545,"text":"到底發生什麼事中央院也可以透過研究去告訴大家我們也要建立我們中華民國的正統否則的話現在中華民國前40幾年的權勢權全部在中國大陸那邊那萬一他的權勢權他去跟國外做研究講說都是他們在對日抗戰然後都是他們"},{"start":4634.229,"end":4658.156,"text":"的表現怎樣怎樣怎樣其實對台灣對我們中華民國也不利嗎委員我非常贊成您說您說的非常的好其實也是他們有點不願意跟我們交流的原因他不希望這個近代史史觀受到我們研究的影響是啦那你也可以那你也可以研究完之後你也可以研究完之後去跟他們以外的國家去做交流嘛讓其他國家知道說完全同意委員說的謝謝您說的"},{"start":4660.517,"end":4689.016,"text":"為什麼說你看到說我們加強對國際的合作的這個的原因很大一部分就是這個但是問題是問題是你們你們現在我不知道你們研究在這一塊還有沒有深入啦有沒有去對國外做交流不知道啦非常深入的研究所曾經我剛才講的最近幾年國際上特別是跟台灣在文史方面特別近代史這一塊跟台灣的合作興趣是非常高就像剛剛雷首長講的"},{"start":4690.377,"end":4711.956,"text":"我覺得因為之前大家都好像講到中國大陸好像就很害怕啦那既然賴總統已經講中華民國113年我覺得你們就放手去研究去告訴人家過去40幾年對不對我們對抗戰或我們做了多少這個對世界有貢獻的事情嘛宣揚中華民國的價值這塊可以多做啦然後再來齁"},{"start":4713.577,"end":4728.264,"text":"因為中央研究院生育卓著所以經常被冒名像這個新聞就是有人冒用中央研究院的名號就是說治療糖尿病新發現然後就說這個是中央研究院研究的然後讓大家去買他的藥那這個"},{"start":4730.285,"end":4758.362,"text":"其實是個詐騙可是你看喔這臉書上這個詐騙它的效果宣傳效果非常好幾乎都比那個台灣plus貼文多非常多了像這個按讚數有7745個讚然後分享有1195個分享這種詐騙但是效果這麼好我不知道說中研院看到類似這種詐騙你們的處置方式是怎樣好我們有這個請法治處跟這個制裁處做這個很完整的處理請市長說明"},{"start":4762.99,"end":4778.775,"text":"是委員好我是治療局處長那針對這一類型的詐騙會有的處理方式除了直接到我們零件派出所做通報之外我們也在我們自己的網站上做公告希望能夠讓受害有可能潛在受害的民眾知道說這是一種詐騙但這種情況確實是這個層出不窮"},{"start":4784.158,"end":4806.921,"text":"大概平均一個月會幾件?倒沒有到一個月幾件我講了因為中央有很多新的技術他都有可能變成是有一年幾件?一年我們大概會遇到3、4、5件那除了報案之外還只會在網站上公告?那我就請問一下像這個案子後來處理的方式是怎樣?"},{"start":4807.481,"end":4826.46,"text":"我們的方式是在我們...報警之後因為被害人並不是中研院是被害人是這個民眾所以我們也有跟民眾聯繫請他們提供詳細的被詐騙的資料因為被詐騙資料並不在中研院的手中研院是當然啦你中研院沒被詐騙是說中研院沒有去買這個藥啦"},{"start":4827.461,"end":4855.979,"text":"但是中央研究院的名號、商標被冒用當然也是受害者啊是,這部分我們就有處理包括我們會跟公平會來做這個舉發就是他有可能會產生這個不是我告的問題因為像類似這種案子只會越來越多啦其實我是建議法治這邊應該要擬定一個SOP的啊然後看怎麼樣至少要你們也應該要對外宣傳除了放在網站上之外"},{"start":4857.32,"end":4885.032,"text":"你們的網站可能看人不多啦然後也會疏漏嘛剛剛那個近代史就是這樣所以是不是可以用更積極的方式讓大家不要受騙我們一收到民眾的來電來詢問我覺得你再研究一下啦因為有些會先來詢問我們然後我們都會做非常第一時間就告訴說這可能是詐騙提醒他們謝謝委員長然後上次你來的時候我有問你那個陳建仁院長嘛現在在中研院他還開心嗎最近"},{"start":4887.434,"end":4893.249,"text":"因為我最近看到他本來要去ECFA當特使後來又不能去有沒有?心情有受影響嗎?"},{"start":4894.582,"end":4920.57,"text":"我相信有遇到他嗎?這個偶爾在院裡面會看到他的背影,他通常都很忙,這個跑來跑去,所以我想他應該是生活非常愉快,就做研究,因為研究是他最想要做的工作,他這個也一直再三重生,他是一個研究員。那那個ECFA沒辦法去有沒有心情受到影響?那我不清楚了。你沒問他喔?沒有。OK好好謝謝。"},{"start":4924.905,"end":4938.412,"text":"謝謝...欸?結束了齁?還沒...你還沒嗎?欸你今天怎麼對我那麼好?我一向都對大家很一致喔謝謝葉元智委員的質詢,院長請回再來我們請陳秀寶委員質詢謝謝主席請廖院長,有請廖院長"},{"start":4954.555,"end":4960.66,"text":"陳委員早院長早安院長我這邊請教您中研院南部院區在10月15日舉行開幕儀式賴總統在致辭的時候表示說希望未來更能夠發揮平衡南北均衡台灣發展這個成效當然南部的院區是從2012年開始籌備以台南高鐵特定區為基地規劃的是農業生性量子科技技能永續人文社會等這些特色的領域研究"},{"start":4982.999,"end":5011.736,"text":"這個部分我想請教院長我們有沒有規劃在2027年南部院區全部完工之後我們會不會可以考慮來設立中章頭的中部院區這個是一個很好的主意我們目前確實沒有想到到中部院區這個議題不過委員建議我們可以因為除了南北均衡發展之外其實我們中部也很需要就有這樣子的量能來我們希望全台灣遍地都能夠"},{"start":5012.196,"end":5012.296,"text":"二、審查11"},{"start":5034.515,"end":5040.638,"text":"這邊再請教南部院區最後的第三個階段是量子科技實驗大樓這個部分110年合定的總經費是17.88億在112年的時候增調了2.73億在今年的4月又增調5.22億總計已經累計增加7.95億來到了25.83億"},{"start":5058.067,"end":5074.484,"text":"但是呢公期要往後延一年這個部分是因為執行力不好還是說我們有去檢討是什麼原因造成的好這原因非常複雜請總務處長解釋委員好因為是整個南部的工程的量能"},{"start":5075.145,"end":5078.806,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":5104.151,"end":5130.96,"text":"是的,決表已經公告了在11月21號按照契約就會開工所以今年年底是真的確定可以開工是的,11月21號有沒有把握可以如期如值而且不會再追加預算的把這個工程來完成目前我們的預算爭取的部分在安排上面已經有一些準備金未來這個環境如果變化的時候我們覺得應該是可以在這個預算裡面順利的執行"},{"start":5131.36,"end":5158.827,"text":"好謝謝是希望說一切可以很順利因為我們在等中部院區所以南部這邊要趕快做一個段落可以如期如止的完工好那接下來我想請教院長您在報告中有提到113年度有編列預算協助政府來辦理台灣人體生物資料庫的這個計畫總經費是兩億兩千多萬那請問院長到九月底我們執行數是多少執行率有多少請那個生物資料庫執行長"},{"start":5160.532,"end":5177.172,"text":"是,報告委員我是臺灣人體生物資料庫的這個代表人楊懷一那目前為止很不好意思我沒有辦法很確切跟委員報告說這個到目前為止的資金率是有多少但是我可以回去跟同仁們把"},{"start":5177.612,"end":5199.213,"text":"資料調清楚之後給你報告那你會後把資料送到我辦公室喔我們台灣人體生物資料庫的計畫每年會進行兩次的這個退出個案檢體及資料銷毀作業那今年是在5月及9月喔那因為你現在可能也沒有數據對不對我要問你說今年退出的個案檢體的資料及銷毀資料的這個數幾件數你也不知道那請你這邊你掌握了這個數據之後再給我"},{"start":5202.476,"end":5209.959,"text":"其實你們在網站上面有一些資料顯示了在10月31號受案數是203,026那完成第一輪最終的是73,640第二輪最終的是6535但是去年的量去年有20萬人那今年到目前只增加了3000多3026案那你們自己覺得說你們在這個募集的成效"},{"start":5225.704,"end":5249.212,"text":"我講我們現在主要的工作並不是在增加收案數而是在追蹤訪問這部分也請楊懷毅來解釋是,呃,誠如剛剛院長所解釋的齁我們這個網站的資料可能我們還要再去看一下就我所知我們每一年的追蹤個案數會達到3萬人以上所以這個事後我也會跟在請同仁準備好確切的資料跟委員報告"},{"start":5250.232,"end":5269.566,"text":"這個對於每個個案的你們持續追蹤應該大部分都是2到4年不等的這個追蹤的時間。但是講到這個我特別要分享一下我個人的經驗。我也是去做健檢的時候護理師問我說願不願意多抽兩管血來參加一個這樣子長期追蹤研究的一個專案。我覺得說這應該是很重要我就答應了。"},{"start":5270.287,"end":5297.69,"text":"那我在抽的時候抽血的時候我有問護理師我說那這樣子抽血之後有沒有什麼影響他看一看我的血管說你這條血管有比較細那你抽了之後你抽多抽這兩管之後你的血管可能水不夠的話會扁掉我嚇了一跳我心裡想好我鼓足勇氣我已經答應你要抽我就抽了結果我抽到第二管的時候我抽到第二管就是多增加了這兩管我已經抽了一管抽第二管的時候護理師跟我說啊你的血不太夠那我看你不要參加好了"},{"start":5297.91,"end":5317.5,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":5317.58,"end":5339.619,"text":"但是如果是護理師是這樣的態度來對這些民眾對病人他在收集的時候這種態度我會覺得說這給他推廣有點難吧因為我自己遇到了這樣的狀況我就覺得你第一個已經被你嚇過一次他跟我說血管會扁掉當然是會恢復啦但是你說當下你就覺得說欸是有被嚇到然後抽了一管之後他跟我說血不夠那我們不要抽了是你放棄不是我放棄欸"},{"start":5340.646,"end":5369.148,"text":"我覺得這樣子的態度對我們的推廣而且對民眾對這些研究個案的認知我覺得是很不利的所以我們針對我這樣的經驗分享您覺得可以怎樣來加強是,謝謝委員首先要謝謝委員願意參加這樣子非常重要的一個這個抽血的活動那不曉得委員是不是參加台灣報告會但是我們一定會去檢討就我所知我們的委員在我們的這個同仁在收案是有非常嚴謹的標準的包括他們事先要去簽這個所謂的"},{"start":5371.149,"end":5375.113,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":5393.848,"end":5394.488,"text":"我希望可以提供一個檢討的方向。"},{"start":5421.085,"end":5442.023,"text":"好 謝謝院長再請教報道者是在1月訪問中研院的研究團隊的時候有說中研院跟合作醫院來做台灣精準醫療計畫TPMI聯盟有預計在2024年會發表4篇的主論文到國際期刊那我們是把目標放在自然系列的期刊"},{"start":5443.684,"end":5467.98,"text":"我們的研究團隊是希望說能夠努力的讓世界看到臺灣對精準醫療這個研究的成果那我想請教說到目前為止我們發表哪些論文到國際期刊據我了解已經神秘出去4篇那現在正在審查當中那結果會怎麼樣我們現在還不得而知但是期待會有這個令人振奮的消息所以已經照我們原來的計畫我們已經發表了4篇不是發表"},{"start":5471.823,"end":5473.444,"text":"兩邊不同的方式希望能夠整合學術處處長陳建昌"},{"start":5497.944,"end":5515.384,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5515.704,"end":5534.461,"text":"現在在等到衛福部的修法如果通過中央研究院也在努力想辦法要把這個TPMI的資料可能所以是可以來合作一起合作的現在在往這個方向努力因為我時間到了我快速的講一下我們的學術研究與人才培育向下我們也有聘僱助理人員211人其實我們這些薪資相關以及勞健保合計我們的經費是2億13萬"},{"start":5541.087,"end":5544.109,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":5567.092,"end":5584.412,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢,院長請回再來我們請葛如君委員質詢好,謝謝主席,有請中研院廖院長辯詢有請廖院長"},{"start":5587.706,"end":5603.014,"text":"各位委員早好早啊院長好我想今天我們是做非常學術的討論我們也非常感謝立院這個教文委員會多了一幅美麗的話我想希望可以為我們的委員會增添一點理直氣和的氛圍"},{"start":5605.451,"end":5621.214,"text":"我想有一個地方想要先詢問一下院長中央醫院歐美研究所2021年發起美國肖像的研究計畫一共調查10年2024年5月23號到28號用四話手機抽樣電訪了1200多位中華民國成年的民眾要探討對於美國的印象其中有一題很微妙這一題"},{"start":5631.556,"end":5644.376,"text":"他是要問說假設川普於2024年勝選成為美國總統且中國大陸攻打台灣您認為美國出兵幫助台灣的可能性是減少還增加?請教一下院長知道調查結果嗎?"},{"start":5646.982,"end":5664.14,"text":"我看過這個報告那詳細的數字我現在這個不記得好我先提醒院長7月多的時候呢其實美國選舉已經開跑很長時間而且在非常炙熱的狀態告訴院長答案貴院今年在7月18號高調公布調查結果說川普勝選總統呢"},{"start":5666.463,"end":5688.303,"text":"會對臺灣安全的連結造成一些影響．37.5%的受訪者相信川普當選總統會提升美國出兵幫助臺灣的可能性但是46.2%認為會減少。針對川普院最新的調查結果近半數的民眾認為他可能幫助臺灣的可能性降低院長認同這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":5689.911,"end":5711.29,"text":"這個是非常專業的問題那也非常複雜並不是簡單說這個會不會出兵而且這個的前提是中國大陸會攻打台灣那這個也是一個很這個假設性的問題所以在這個問題這個假設存在下那他的回答那就每一個人的依據就不一樣所以這個要怎麼解讀變得說要很"},{"start":5713.472,"end":5722.515,"text":"閱長的回答有院長的高度真的很好但是呢這個研究也應該要有中研院跟院長一樣的高度嘛那為什麼我們會有這樣偏頗的提問呢這個問題其實是非常複雜的媒體呢不斷就報導中研院7月高調公布的這個新聞稿"},{"start":5732.159,"end":5734.32,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案"},{"start":5757.376,"end":5782.346,"text":"或者拜登沒有問到民主黨為什麼會有這種情況呢?同時又去問這種很明確很可能有這種影響疑義的事情還高調發布現在賴政府跟中研院壓作保壓作鞭中研院是不是應該要秉持著不只是行政中立啊也應該要是學術中立是不是要重新做一些相關研究去給賴總統一些新的建議啊?"},{"start":5783.627,"end":5804.297,"text":"我想這個中委員一向是尊重學術自由這個調查是研究人員這個由下而上的一個訪問那我們一切尊重當然委員的提醒我們也會交給研究人員去做參考那這個歐北省的副所長是不是也可以這個稍微解釋一下"},{"start":5805.675,"end":5805.775,"text":"第二點"},{"start":5831.98,"end":5856.873,"text":"然後第二個就是說在這個關於所有的調查這個設定來講我想從這個學術的這個角度我們是在探討各種的可能性那麼是不是有偏頗我想這個可以有謝謝我們尊重學術自由但也請尊重行政中立跟學術中立各種各樣的研究都要有才能夠提供給我們的政府一個相關的參考跟依循希望院長回去了解一下這個研究或者相類似的研究"},{"start":5857.273,"end":5885.688,"text":"能不能平衡一下會有需要重新依據選舉的結果做研究也希望能夠提供學者作為參考再來我想和院長討論另外一個也是非常重要的問題每天都應該關注就是我們的能源問題中研院2022年提出淨零科技研發政策建議書建議使用包含前兩名就是去碳燃氫跟地熱能但是呢過了幾年我們到現在還在光電還在這個相關的這個這等同於是跟你們的想法跟建議是不一樣的"},{"start":5886.568,"end":5892.011,"text":"除碳燃氫是用非常先進的技術讓它燃燒的時候不會產生二氧化碳對環境永續是比較有幫助的對於台灣現在都是用氣發電減碳是極有幫助的中央院在去年2023年11月14號跟台電共同發布除碳燃氫的技術的一個小型商用的發電基礎這個當然是給予鼓勵"},{"start":5910.882,"end":5912.043,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":5928.456,"end":5952.818,"text":"我前兩天在週末的時間參訪了新加坡他們已經在做30%了甚至呢德國公司、日本公司、美國公司都先後表態2025年就可以做到100%的氫能發電的機組我們的速度為什麼這麼的慢我們能不能再更提升一些我們能不能再更快一些中央院有沒有在做更多這方面的研究去響應你們自己的建議啊"},{"start":5953.519,"end":5981.941,"text":"好跟委員這個說明一下首先您說我們剛才提的那五項緊迅推動並不是表示說只推動這五項其他都不做了而是說這五項在目前社會上政府是推動比較少那我們希望說政府能夠推動這些那其他我們也支持譬如說剛才您看到我們也是擴大推動加速推動等等的並不是說這些其他都不做了因為我們檢探需要但是我們的速度太慢了"},{"start":5982.301,"end":5988.565,"text":"別人都已經到20%、30%2025要100%了我們不能只是為了10%就很高興嗎?跟委員報告所謂10%、20%那是生產機組的公司並不是他們實際用來發電的這不一樣喔譬如說這個西門子他說它有50%他說有30%或是100%日本也有號稱100%那是他們生產的機組他們可以提供給客戶台電是一個客戶"},{"start":6011.379,"end":6038.685,"text":"所以這兩者是不一樣的那我們的學術量能不用跟上別人商業的技術嗎?所以說我們積極要發展去氮燃氫因為到目前為止國際上仍然是用電解水來產氫那這個在綠電充足的國家是可行在台灣綠電缺乏用電解水產氫是比較困難所以我們積極要發展其他的方法所以我們的18是用其他的方法?是的"},{"start":6040.845,"end":6067.264,"text":"我們一起來了解一下希望能夠拔得頭籌用新的技術也要繼續領先那地熱能的部分也其實很重要因為地熱能也是一個非常有用的做法但是我們現在10月21號跟中油合作在宜蘭開採了這個所謂的深層地熱探測井那未來有沒有可能申請相關的執照直接在當地建立電廠中原業有沒有"},{"start":6068.184,"end":6089.094,"text":"這方面的資訊這個警目前是定位為研究警那還有很多法規的的變更法規的調適才能夠在那邊開發地熱那這部分我們也這個密集的跟經濟部行政院商量那假如我們真的探測到下一步要怎麼做那目前為止是這個研究警"},{"start":6089.454,"end":6091.596,"text":"保持聯繫喔那您在受訪的時候也表示2026上半年希望可以有更多的報告那因為我們明年很可能要這個進入這個新的能源的時代不管怎麼樣的一個情況啦應該有確熱遞熱的話我們應該要盡速的發展"},{"start":6107.153,"end":6119.547,"text":"另外有沒有其他的地方可以再多做?中央有沒有一些相關的研究?也許不只是宜蘭嘛。因為日本菲律賓已經大量佈建許久。甚至呢菲律賓跟我們的這個比例有100倍。那為什麼我們最近10月才開採第一座?我們是什麼樣的原因delay這麼久?"},{"start":6126.135,"end":6140.764,"text":"二、跟委員報告這個我們這這這一次並不是第一座這臺灣也有開展很多地熱但是都淺沉 中研院的第一座嗎這個不是不是中研院跟中油的這是深層地熱中研院事實上跟地熱是沒有相關的只是我們有"},{"start":6141.584,"end":6143.825,"text":"公里半的部分打到地熱,這個在台灣過去是沒有做的。"},{"start":6159.735,"end":6186.493,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":6186.593,"end":6215.367,"text":"希望中央院作為這個能源探勘或能源研究的領頭羊啦能夠替台灣找到更多可以用的電啦否則的話我們現在的這個光電其實日本已經做出警告有非常多的廢棄物因為太陽能板每20年就要做廢棄會有很多廢料的問題那地熱其實台灣非常淺沉非常有機會可以來做發電的這個條件那我想不管是政治的研究還是能源的研究"},{"start":6216.087,"end":6239.738,"text":"希望中央院都可以發揮學者的風骨,包括我們剛剛提到的雙重中立,持續地來作為這個領頭羊,來帶領或者是讓我們看見未來發展的各種可能性,並且落實下來。謝謝。好,謝謝。院長請回,謝謝葛如君委員的質詢。再來我們請林一金委員質詢,然後郭育晴委員質詢完,我們會休息五分鐘。"},{"start":6246.039,"end":6248.522,"text":"謝主席有請院長林委員早院長早"},{"start":6254.966,"end":6282.118,"text":"中央研究院南部院區在上個月正式開幕那在上週六南部院區也有舉辦院區開放日那身為台南的立委大大的肯定這樣的一個舉辦那當然之前台北舉辦的活動也可以在南部舉行真的是讓南部的民眾不用在大老遠跑到台北那可以同樣可以這個探訪最高學術殿堂的機會"},{"start":6283.319,"end":6302.756,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":6302.756,"end":6320.418,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6320.418,"end":6346.647,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":6346.827,"end":6369.284,"text":"至少在這個院區開放日這個比較軟性的細節開始我們是不是可以用這個來作為一些連結這個拉近南北差距然後隨著這個南部院區的運行也更上軌道我們是不是在南部院區這種開放日有更多更多的活動能追上北部院區的腳步"},{"start":6370.365,"end":6371.306,"text":"議員議員的誇獎我們確實是希望說在南部能夠打造一個"},{"start":6392.419,"end":6395.36,"text":"議員提醒,南部院區的腹地是北部的四分之一,我們沒有辦法容納這麼多場次。"},{"start":6417.253,"end":6425.096,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案。netesi,您的想法是說,倒不一定是要分開,而是分開哪一些場次,我們標注是給兒童的,哪一些是給高中以上的學生。"},{"start":6439.821,"end":6441.803,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":6457.074,"end":6483.161,"text":"台南是臺灣最早開發的地區所以我們因為府城的經貿發達所以我們其實發展出很多的人文特色本席要很肯定我們在南部縣區我們有設置人文社會的研究基地所以要帶動南臺灣的人文研究風氣本席認為說南部的縣區現在可以以南方島嶼人文的展覽為基礎"},{"start":6485.402,"end":6502.758,"text":"未來的這個南院的開放活動可以衍生出更多視角的南台灣的人文領域的研究座談跟互動體驗等等那例如台南的希拉雅文化這個還有它的語言研究跟保存這個議題等等"},{"start":6504.019,"end":6507.741,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":6526.754,"end":6540.989,"text":"陳大有這個所謂的航太相關的科系那台南的大內也有著南營天文館那太空中心未來又要進駐沙倫那我們可能還要在台南部署所謂的火箭組裝基地等等"},{"start":6541.75,"end":6542.351,"text":"adequate to the"},{"start":6557.022,"end":6584.787,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":6586.179,"end":6613.336,"text":"謝謝委員誇獎天文我們會回去跟我們的同仁去鼓勵在南部明年辦一個展覽好 謝謝再來本席想要跟院長探討就是說其實我們台灣有許多優秀的研究人才那我們當然還需要更多有潛力的優秀的學生來投入學術這個研究領域"},{"start":6614.637,"end":6634.144,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院計劃及項目中有就非常著重在這一塊那特別在人才培育中跟大學來共同培育卓越人才方面那所以我們長年有辦理這個國際研究生的學程TIGP那希望延攬國內外具有潛力的學生"},{"start":6636.365,"end":6656.15,"text":"近6年這個申請的人數都破千人不過本時有注意到就是說在2002開辦至今除了前5年的報道率維持在7、8成外那其他很多的那個年度的報道率好像都落在6成左右"},{"start":6656.59,"end":6677.39,"text":"可是在2023年報道率也只有6乘7有1382人報名可是錄取155個人可是實際報道是104所以我想要請教是說這個國際研究生的學程錄取學生的報道率不太高的原因是什麼不曉得你們有探討"},{"start":6678.45,"end":6694.399,"text":"是這樣子因為我們現在的越辦越好我們開始能夠跟國際間的名校競爭同一批學生所以同一個學生他可能被我們TIGP入取同時他也可能申請到日本、美國、香港的大學"},{"start":6695.94,"end":6715.078,"text":"當然我們要跟這些國際名校競爭難免會失去一些報道率上面的一些表現所以這是我們努力的目標我們希望說學證越來越好報道率也越來越高但這兩者不見得說可以同時成長"},{"start":6716.259,"end":6727.871,"text":"整體的數字委員報告我們每年申請的人數都逐年上升特別是去年開始我們增加獎助金之後我們申請的人數成長了幾乎變成原來的兩倍"},{"start":6732.076,"end":6734.159,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":6748.979,"end":6767.651,"text":"最後我想跟您談談就是說美國大選後這個的台灣挑戰美國大選其實這次川普贏得選戰那長期研究台灣的日本學者小麗元星星他就有分析說川普的當選有可能是台灣噩夢的這個危險徵兆那局勢恐有利於中國"},{"start":6771.633,"end":6800.138,"text":"可是他也有提到有評論認為說可能因為美中這個貿易戰會加劇所以反而成為台灣的機會所以就是兩種說法都不一可是院長您應該也跟長期一些相關的研究單位的所長那我想也都有做一些分析那不曉得您怎麼樣看就是說川普從長白宮的整個全球局勢那台灣的影響跟挑戰是什麼可不可以簡單講一下"},{"start":6801.178,"end":6825.411,"text":"我想在非常複雜、瞬息萬變的國際環境當中台灣一定要審慎以對一定要強化自己各方面的能力這個才是台灣安全最重要的保障詳細我們有很多學者專家從政治、經濟、法律各層面來做探討我們是不是請這些專家來分享一下"},{"start":6828.423,"end":6846.96,"text":"委員好我是經濟所副所長楊淑君有關於關稅的部分呢你有提到說這個我們也許會從中得利因為他們針對大陸的產品科稅的比例是比較高的但是這個要從這個商品到底是跟台灣的這個產品產業到底是互衝"},{"start":6847.66,"end":6852.361,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":6867.785,"end":6876.307,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":6897.711,"end":6908.136,"text":"可是這一次好像又要回到台灣來,不曉得這個考量在哪裡?那未來有沒有機會再去歐洲或大洋洲去舉辦這個大會呢?有,我們都會考量,那請那個主辦單位來做個說明。"},{"start":6911.115,"end":6931.455,"text":"議員好我是政治所所長負責這次臺灣研究世界大會原來預期論文大概是250篇那目前進來大概才有500篇那我們本來它就是每三年在臺灣跟國外輪流拜下一屆會是在美國UCSD來舉行就像簡單說所以就是每三年一次是的那有可能縮減到兩年或一年一次嗎"},{"start":6934.771,"end":6945.958,"text":"三年在臺灣辦一次每三年辦一次然後到國外去輪流辦理那是不是後續再書面或者是口頭跟林委員報告好謝謝謝謝院長謝謝主席謝謝林議員的質詢院長請回再來我們請郭益勤委員質詢郭益勤委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":6960.496,"end":6962.858,"text":"謝謝主席,有請院長。好,有請廖院長。好,郭委員早。"},{"start":6969.011,"end":6994.794,"text":"院長早安我想這個中研院院區開放參觀這個open house這個活動其實在我們的北院的部分其實受到非常多的這個迴響那這個效果其實也非常的好那我知道其實在去年10月14號首度專門為6到12歲的孩子舉辦這個兒童科普日那七十場的一個活動也吸引了將近快要五萬人的參與"},{"start":6995.715,"end":6997.396,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究基金附屬單位預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":7016.184,"end":7041.452,"text":"那我們知道其實10月15號我們的中央研究院的南部的院區開幕那一直到上個禮拜其實我們也推出了第一次的這個上禮拜六的一個open house的一個活動那當天有35場科普相關的一個活動那我不曉得這個活動大家的反應如何然後後續我們有沒有可能也比照這個北院的部分也這樣子持續的算是固定的時間來辦理"},{"start":7043.586,"end":7070.216,"text":"這據我們了解反應是非常非常好有點出乎我們的意料那當然我們明年是一定會再度辦理這南部院區的開放那至於是否會分兒童版的科普日跟一般這個院區開放那我們明年可能會先從分零分流開始而不是不同天同一天有一些活動是可以說標註給"},{"start":7072.117,"end":7089.83,"text":"學生和大人來參加,用這種方式能夠廣邀全家大小一起到中央醫院南部醫院去享受愉快又有知識性的一天。"},{"start":7090.931,"end":7111.284,"text":"因為我們知道其實這個南院的這樣子的一個院區或者是南院的這樣子的一個園區應該是說它其實也帶動了這個南北科技產業非常重要的一個發展的一個指標那我想這個從我們北部的一些成功的複製那可以往南我們真的就把這個科普的部分往下扎根"},{"start":7112.664,"end":7116.026,"text":"另外我想討論一下關於人才培育跟延攬的一個計畫。剛剛其實有聽到我們在延攬國外的一些優秀的人才來台灣做一些交流。包含TIGP我們的成效的確也是不錯。"},{"start":7131.904,"end":7153.483,"text":"但是我要來討論的是另外一個部分就是在113年度我們看到延攬資深學人我們目標延攬是10位但是最後只有一位這個等於是達成率有點低只有10%另外我們可以看到在這4年來當中好像這個數字好像都是一直在往下盪第二塊的部分是國內外學術研究機構合辦的學程跟進修的計畫"},{"start":7158.908,"end":7188.135,"text":"那預計招生的總人數是65名那實際的是47名大概差不多七成多那另外在博士後研究學者的培育計畫那目標是100名那實際到的人數是79名那這三項的指標明顯可能跟剛剛我們包含這個移經委員有特別提到的TIGP的這個延攬人才的部分好像那個成效是有一點落差這個部分是"},{"start":7190.677,"end":7206.895,"text":"首先跟委員報告這個延攬資深學人的部分假如說我們延攬成功這位資深學人來本院專職擔任本院的研究人員就不需要用這個計畫來支付他的費用"},{"start":7207.455,"end":7211.518,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":7229.512,"end":7255.294,"text":"那所謂的目標值是我們編列預算那這個以備萬一這個這個延攬的對象沒有辦法馬上回來擔任專職我們用動用這部分的經費那目前從113年度來看只有一位是需要用這樣子的經費是這個狀況所以是沒有把它納入納入進去就是在經費預算的部分對對他假如是回來我們延攬了很成功就不需要這個"},{"start":7256.135,"end":7271.489,"text":"好那另外就是剛剛有特別提到這個TIGP的一個計畫就是我們其實目標是15位但是實際招募到有30位那當然其實好像這個實際上報到的人數其實我也想要了解一下"},{"start":7271.989,"end":7291.234,"text":"就算剛剛其實這個院長有特別說明因為這些人才其實他同樣的他可能也在申請其他的一些我們可能等於要跟其他的國際要來做競爭然後再把人才能夠能夠帶進台灣那這個部分有沒有預計就是因為有這樣子的一個狀況我們可能將來會把這個目標的人數再往上調"},{"start":7292.803,"end":7304.629,"text":"我想我們要思考說為什麼人家這個去選擇國際先這個更知名的學術單位我們要盡量提升我們的研究水準並且要這個滾動式調整"},{"start":7308.251,"end":7324.177,"text":"學生和博士生的薪資待遇能夠跟上國際的腳步。我們去年雖然已經有調整,但是過幾年之後我們可能也需要再重新檢視,看是否跟國外的落差有沒有擴大。"},{"start":7325.157,"end":7352.998,"text":"好,那另外一塊我比較想要了解就是2010年我們開始實施這個國際研究生的這個學程招收包含暑期生的一個計劃了那14年來其實我們招收了大概607位那後續有再投入相關的這個就是我們的人員的研究或者是說後續他們在發展的狀況有沒有就是中研院這邊有沒有做一些比較實際上的一個追蹤"},{"start":7353.678,"end":7378.516,"text":"有,我們請國際處長來回答。報告國會議員,國際處處長孟子欣回答。我們每年大概招生60位、50、60位的這個實習生。那目標只是希望他們至少有10%可以留在本院來銜接國際研究生的博士班。那目前看起來疫情前後其實大致上都有達到這個目標。那疫情後我們會更希望能夠把10%是不是看是不是可以提升到20%。這是目前的規劃,謝謝。"},{"start":7381.859,"end":7394.451,"text":"另外我想要了解一下就是中央研究院在114年度的預算案當中其實我們的學術研究跟人才培育底下有一個基本行政工作的一個維持我們大概也編列了將近快要有12億左右的這樣子的一個經費"},{"start":7398.455,"end":7411.909,"text":"當然這些經費其實也會投入在比方說像知識饗宴或者是中研獎堂相關的一些費用上面那我比較好奇的就是中研獎堂的部分那過去這個七年其實每年我們大概都會辦將近快要兩場"},{"start":7414.412,"end":7431.247,"text":"但是今年好像到目前為止只辦了一場而且是在苗栗的學校來做這樣子的一個推廣當然我們知道其實要辦一次的這個講堂我們要耗費很多的人力啦然後還很多的這個資料然後包含一些就是我們整個所有的這個進程上面的一些規劃啦"},{"start":7432.228,"end":7433.97,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":7451.011,"end":7473.419,"text":"在南部院區好那明年之後呢有沒有可能會比較我們在檢討看看說我們的量能啊怎麼樣在在做啊還要看相對的效益是啊那中研講堂因為我們在院區開放裡面就有30幾場的類似這樣的演講活動啊所以我們要再評估一下哪一個效益比較高好"},{"start":7474.289,"end":7488.949,"text":"那之前其實我們知道還有這個言之有物就是我們特別把一些比較艱澀跟科學科技相關的部分我們是有配合用一些比較圖文有趣的一個方式來做這樣子的一個出版這樣子的刊物"},{"start":7489.389,"end":7512.341,"text":"adequa部分我不曉得這個推廣有沒有就是延伸到國中小甚至到我們的高中是不是有另外一個更進程的一個跟跨部會教育部這邊來做一個合作然後把這樣子的一個科普的刊物能夠往下扎根的一個計畫目前我們是以出版為主那第三本的顏值有誤也即將出版"},{"start":7513.021,"end":7518.485,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11"},{"start":7542.262,"end":7547.264,"text":"院長請回。謝謝郭育群委員的質詢。那我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":7870.196,"end":7872.318,"text":"我們繼續開會,現在我們請萬美玲委員質詢。好,謝謝主席,我們有請廖院長。有請廖院長。"},{"start":7888.577,"end":7914.95,"text":"院長早好院長早好院長我想您是身兼我們總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人那這個是關乎這個我們國家能源二次轉型跟達成2050淨零碳排目標非常的重要那所以呢我想站在中研院的立場我們這除了在研究上面我們要不斷的精進之外我們是不是也會提供一些正確的建議給各部會是的"},{"start":7915.45,"end":7931.668,"text":"我們從科技的角度提示。我想在今年的8月跟10月份的時候,我們兩次國家氣候變遷對策的會議都有提到一個就是在明年1月要提出台灣2032年的減碳新目標。院長您都有出席,對嗎?是的。"},{"start":7933.309,"end":7950.349,"text":"根據會議的資料您當時有說要利用新科技提升核能安全性或補強位於地震帶的核電廠我想這一些言論是否代表您對於國家能源的發展是不排除核電的從技術上來講這些是可行的"},{"start":7951.03,"end":7957.435,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":7978.873,"end":8003.783,"text":"合電的研究分很多層面那從基礎研究的角度它需要投入非常大的資源幾乎全世界只有少數的國家可以獨立投入比如說美國比如說中國那其他都是跨國合作那合電的研究大部分都是在商業化及它安全性的研究方面比較多"},{"start":8005.384,"end":8018.836,"text":"院長,現在中央研究院有進行新核能技術的研發嗎?比如說我們剛剛提到的其中像SMR或者核融合這些技術研究有嗎?沒有,因為這方面有幾個原因。第一個最主要就是這裡面的技術研究"},{"start":8019.377,"end":8019.997,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8037.005,"end":8057.005,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":8057.025,"end":8059.186,"text":"對,第一部分主要是在實際建設的階段每一個核電廠、每一個SMR都有它設計的方式,別人無從置諱"},{"start":8083.637,"end":8109.533,"text":"需要設計工程公司自己去做那學研單位最多只能從比較廣泛的一個角度提供一些這個比較general的一些問題那這個在國際上也有一些研究但是由於過去幾年全世界核能的研究這前景不明所以這方面前景不明"},{"start":8110.973,"end":8132.998,"text":"議員長我想目前就我們自己的狀況來看我們知道核三廠二號機組在明年的五月就要除役了那我們現在看到再生能源的這個發電進展其實是遲緩的那麼我們不管是提高燃氣燃煤發電的比例都其實都會增加碳排所以現在我們看到中火這個二期增加的這個燃氣機組的爭議等等如果"},{"start":8135.478,"end":8141.655,"text":"我們政府堅持要排除掉零碳排的核電您個人認為在2050近零碳排的目標會不會達成?"},{"start":8144.251,"end":8164.619,"text":"競靈我們沒有放棄任何乾淨能源的本錢所以我們要達成競靈一定要想盡辦法用所有可以用的技術那剛才委員提到說我們這個天然氣廠雖然排炭但是他所這個替代的燃煤電廠他"},{"start":8166.4,"end":8168.882,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案"},{"start":8196.323,"end":8197.164,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":8212.628,"end":8234.193,"text":"不是不能這樣講是說我們這個研究繼續進行但這個計劃是在這個14年的預算裡面是明年1月才會開始我想院長其實您真的是很實事求是啦那其實我們有看到其實在112年在就是65千瓦等級的小型商用發電機組那我們以混淨10%的濃度有發電成功那我本期有看到這個部分"},{"start":8238.274,"end":8239.855,"text":"二、審查114年度中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案"},{"start":8259.821,"end":8261.823,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究基金附屬單位預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":8281.34,"end":8309.6,"text":"那剛才您有提到就是說這個預算嘛那我看到中研院在明年的這個預算當中我們也編列了4年10億的這個相關的這個經費明年先編了2億那這個中研院預計在什麼時候我們會開始進行百萬瓦級的相關的混清測試有沒有信心可以做這是我們的規劃是兩年後就是台電由台電購置5M的機組那我們的巨蛋燃氣的反應器跟台電機組做串聯"},{"start":8311.181,"end":8318.547,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。netesi,這計劃是中研院跟台電來合作,那這個經費是雙方來平攤嗎?然後如果將來這個技術研發成功之後,我們是無償提供給台電,還是我們會向台電來收取部分計轉的費用?至於計轉,我們將來在另外還要談,現在是共同開發的階段。"},{"start":8334.859,"end":8341.882,"text":"我們會跟他平攤費用嗎?不一定是平攤,但是會有一個制裁的一個...所以這個還沒有談出來?這個現在還為時尚早,因為將來還要技術發展的狀況還不確定。"},{"start":8350.265,"end":8380.265,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":8380.425,"end":8382.227,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8397.583,"end":8399.023,"text":"對中央研究院非常有信心"},{"start":8425.129,"end":8429.25,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8458.103,"end":8461.782,"text":"好謝謝主席我請中央研究院院長有請院長"},{"start":8465.565,"end":8489.711,"text":"務委員好院長好首先要恭喜院長今年獲選了歐洲分子生物組織也就是EMBO的外籍院士謝謝不只您本人獲選以外我們也代表台灣跟EMBO簽訂了準會員的協定台灣是不是繼亞洲在亞洲是繼新加坡印度之後我們是第三個準會員是的"},{"start":8490.811,"end":8516.323,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":8516.403,"end":8520.648,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8531.34,"end":8549.821,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":8549.926,"end":8552.369,"text":"國際交流非常重要我們也非常期待除了歐洲以外我也看到一個訊息是9月底的時候院長您是不是跟陳建仁院士也是前副總統一起出席了在教廷的中座科學學院會議"},{"start":8565.662,"end":8566.763,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8594.503,"end":8599.847,"text":"科學院的院長也可以來到台灣訪問,這個有沒有後續進一步的討論?他們去年已經來了,但是我們當然也歡迎他們繼續來訪問。我想剛才您提到這位應該是另外一個社會科學院的院長,應該社會科學院,但還沒有來過。"},{"start":8618.142,"end":8638.221,"text":"這位科學院的還沒有來過那這個中座科學院的來過跟這位書記主教這兩位來過是我想這些國際交流都非常的重要那陳建仁院士是台灣在教廷中座科學院的第二位院士我們前面還有李遠哲院士"},{"start":8638.541,"end":8639.742,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":8653.658,"end":8655.72,"text":"adequate to the budget, of course."},{"start":8675.678,"end":8701.977,"text":"那旅費我想也要提醒其他委員因為我們過去在市議會這幾年期間疫情期間所有所有的公務部門的這個旅費因為沒辦法出國嘛實際上用不到所以我們都是統三但是保留科目因為我們知道等到疫情過後絕對是要趕快來進行國際的交流的所以在疫情之後國際交流的旅費就恢復到我們原先的計劃比前幾年增加這是這是當然的"},{"start":8703.398,"end":8707.7,"text":"我們覺得還不夠我覺得國際的交流對台灣來講不管是學術上實質的進步或者是讓台灣被世界更多的學術社群看見我覺得這兩者我們都非常的希望可以給予你們支持第二個剛剛前面議員自委員也在說怎麼中研院跟中國的學術單位的交流計畫變少了"},{"start":8726.328,"end":8750.54,"text":"是不是代表台灣不重視中國研究?因為我自己碩士是在清大社會所就讀我們所上就有中國研究學程組所以我很多同學他們每一年都是可能要到中國甚至要做田野調查的那台灣的中國研究其實發展多年了不只是清大這個政大東洋所啊、台大啊、國發所啊、淡大等等其實中國研究是我們的強項所以我覺得要理清一件事情"},{"start":8751.48,"end":8758.283,"text":"對中國研究的重視不代表就是要跟中國的這個政府單位做學術交流活動舉例我在清大念書的時候我也代表我們社會所到北京的清華做學術論文的發表交流可是我的論文主題不是中國研究"},{"start":8767.407,"end":8767.727,"text":"兩件事我認為都同等重要。"},{"start":8783.08,"end":8786.404,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8801.86,"end":8821.318,"text":"科學的進展。所以2021年的時候由國科會、中研院、經濟部我們啟動了一個跨部會的量子國家隊計劃由以5年的時間80億元的預算來投入那非常的高興我們去年底看到中研院我們成功的研發台灣自研自製的超導量子電腦"},{"start":8823.072,"end":8828.519,"text":"當然我們還要進展的空間還有很大可是現在全世界是不是只有6個國家包含美國、中國、日本、芬蘭、荷蘭跟台灣能夠自演自治這樣子的用多一個德國了用多一個德國了總共7個國家但是我覺得"},{"start":8838.371,"end":8848.144,"text":"每個月都會增加每個月都會增加所以大家都在努力大家都在努力進步但是我覺得台灣這個表現已經讓我們非常的期待但是呢我看了一下預算我們5年台灣是80億換算美元的話大概2.5億美國的話這個"},{"start":8853.772,"end":8855.573,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究基金附屬單位預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案"},{"start":8874.026,"end":8889.786,"text":"以中央來講我們特別專注在這個超早量子電腦的研發跟它的製程的開發這兩個方面當然我們有量子光電還有量子密碼但是最燒錢的大概就是超早量子電腦"},{"start":8891.347,"end":8892.768,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8908.064,"end":8918.913,"text":"是,這個因為我看到我們電子電腦如果我們的成功然後算力就會變成超強嘛也會提供AI的模型應用但是它是不是會有一個狀況這是很長期的沒錯,它是不是會有一個狀況是它的進展也會帶來風險也就是會不會未來網路上面的密碼"},{"start":8926.8,"end":8930.861,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8954.008,"end":8978.368,"text":"對,因為我看到世界上很多國家,所以我們中研院也開始投入後量子密碼圈。投入很久了,而且發展得相當不錯。好,那這個很重要。接下來最後一點時間想跟院長關心的就是我們對於博士生的講座的提升,因為台灣的博士生招生越來越困難。我在中研院當過三年的研究助理,我那個研究室裡面我記得就有兩位是博士後"},{"start":8979.289,"end":8990.771,"text":"的學長姐那他們在一邊努力做研究也一邊希望說未來是不是能夠繼續擔任研究員或者是可以投入教職所以除了這個供給量以外其實會發現對博士生來說很大一個困難是他可能念博士的時間較長那這個當中那個生活上面如何去支撐他可以全職的來投入博士生的這個學程所以我們中研院也是有博士生講述提升方案目前我們的計畫是怎麼樣來提升"},{"start":9009.535,"end":9011.977,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9027.886,"end":9052.804,"text":"分別是臺大、清大、師大、臺師大還有這個臺南藝術大學、四所大學總共16名博士生我們給予5年的獎助金這些人在大學裡面做研究我們希望說他能夠免除這個您剛才所說的這個生活的困境能夠專心做研究"},{"start":9053.644,"end":9057.727,"text":"所以這個獎注金是每個月提供然後並且是會永續性的讓他能夠把他博士生就讀完成但每年你們會進行一個檢視跟審查嗎?對好這個名額啊我們這個預算在編列的時候名額總共是多少?因為我看你說每年級獎勵的名額最多可以到15名但是我們這一次全國只選了16名"},{"start":9076.982,"end":9100.432,"text":"未來這個名額是不是有提升的空間呢?我們今年有200多位人申請那經過很嚴格的這個考核最後有16位通過作選那明年我們當然希望有更多人來申請那因為是精英獎學金所以我們其實這個標準還是在的但是我們希望很多優秀的學生來申請明年有更多人可以拿到這個獎學金"},{"start":9101.212,"end":9116.961,"text":"是,標準審查嚴格是必須的。那也許是我們在這個計畫的說明上面也讓這個博士生知道要來申請的話他要具備怎麼樣的能力,好不好?是的,我們的評審委員第一次全部是特聘研究員跟院士來當評審委員,所以是非常嚴謹的標準。好,謝謝院長,謝謝主席。謝謝吳佩儀委員的質詢,院長請回。再來我們請林倩琦委員質詢。"},{"start":9136.101,"end":9144.056,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我們立院同仁,還有我們這個中研院的同仁,大家早安,大家好。那我們先請院長。好,有請院長。"},{"start":9147.737,"end":9172.617,"text":"林委員好院長好中研院是我們國家最高的研究機構我們在整個的研究的還有科技創新的部分是我們很重要的一環資源的配置還有資源配置的精準跟成效的方向是我們努力的目標今天我針對三個主題來進行一些質詢希望能夠有一些明確的回應"},{"start":9173.758,"end":9192.382,"text":"當然我們今年在談在這邊談那個113年的跟114年的這個相關的這個預算那我想先請教一個不免俗的先問一下一個預算執行的問題那我們目前執行率是84.42那這個部分是在我們以往的這個時間序是正常的嗎?"},{"start":9195.253,"end":9205.347,"text":"到年底可能還會增加因為有一些這個預算正在執行當中所以這個年度上這樣子是是這個應該是正常的請主席來說明一下"},{"start":9208.724,"end":9234.253,"text":"跟委員報告一下目前因為執行只算到9月底那到年底的時候執行率會再提高那預計每年大概都會執行到9乘5以上好的好謝謝所以我這邊是做一個提醒所以在這邊也會反映到114年度是不是能夠整個順利的推動那這個就請相關的主管來做一下留意那另外一個是原住民族知識的這我就進入今天的這個主題原住民族知識的這個推廣"},{"start":9236.655,"end":9260.454,"text":"上次我對於在院內做原住民族相關的主題有一些了解那你們跟學校的結合我這邊也做了比較深入的參與所以我想了解一下在這個知識體系的建設你們其實做了不少的貢獻但是在知識體系的運用不知道院內在這個部分有沒有去了解一下你們的結構比或者是實際的狀況"},{"start":9262.716,"end":9288.009,"text":"目前進行主要是兩個面向一個是在文化人文方面有民族所另外原住民族有很多固有的一些醫療上的一些應用好謝謝那如果說醫療我想跟你請教一下你們這個整個數據比例在這裡面的一個整理請問營生就是你們所謂的醫療嗎還是營生這個詞"},{"start":9291.43,"end":9315.758,"text":"在你們的報告裡面我現在一下子沒有辦法把應該你們報告裡面你們去看你們整理出來的原住民的相關的那個數據好我直接講了那個在這個原住民的知識推廣的這個部分我先講一下你們的比例大部分你們都集中在民族跟社會所那人文社會的這個研究你們大概在院裡面的比例佔了6.73%"},{"start":9317.538,"end":9338.576,"text":"相較於其他的生科跟那個數科大概11.75跟11.81其實有很大的一個落差那如果原住民的部分都還集中在人文社會裡面的話你們可能要去計算一下這裡面的差異這個是我要很深刻的提醒因為我覺得常常在研究單位、教育單位那因為你們是研究單位所以我就就內容的部分深談"},{"start":9339.076,"end":9339.916,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":9366.451,"end":9391.161,"text":"很少去做這個連結我想我現在問這個數據搞不好一都沒有但是當我們講到計轉後面要講但我擔心時間不夠所以前面先跟你們講計轉這樣一個概念在原住民的主題上你們去怎麼思考的那這其實跟我講的應用層面也有關係那我可能沒有辦法聽你們太多的這個回應但是如果待會有空你們就跟我談談計轉的部分你們有做到些什麼"},{"start":9394.923,"end":9413.392,"text":"我一個概念一直是不希望原住民族成為現代的博物館那現在有的時候看起來也只是一個活生生的博物館而已所以我們講一下你們可能要去確認一下讓我來請問一下所以在這個中研院裡面原住民籍的研究員大概有多少專任兼任"},{"start":9417.043,"end":9443.824,"text":"嗯...這個...哇,等你們跑完,都來不及了。民主所報告在我們所是正式的有一位,那那個...堅韌的有兩位嗎?然後博士生有很多位,是吧?反正剛才我聽到有其他委員對你們這個博士生的鼓勵、獎勵,我這邊也是支持啦,就希望你們能夠在這個部分能夠再多強化一些,因為我們講上次我聽到原住民的學生,我們大部分在東部的也蠻多的,"},{"start":9444.244,"end":9447.928,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":9466.906,"end":9487.218,"text":"那我就直接從原住民這邊再接續到接下來這個主題不過如果問原住民籍的院士有幾個我想可能有我相信未來都會有我們就朝這個目標去邁進所以第二個部分我們來談一下剛才有委員提到你們量子的部分是做得還蠻不錯的"},{"start":9489.219,"end":9496.263,"text":"在院內是不是做過這個無失在我們應該是民主所嘛做過無失的這個研究嘛對吧那你們曾經想過當然"},{"start":9499.805,"end":9528.424,"text":"簡單整理啦我們在台灣的研究的這個部分齁占很大經費的都是所謂的硬體但是我覺得這個缺口經常是軟體做了一些但是軟體的應用跟處理我們做的好像也稍微有點比較欠缺這怎麼說呢請問你們在做這個量子的這個區塊齁我們講說你們有思考過量子的糾結或量子的疊加跟巫師這個系統在現代性的一個呈現有可能有什麼連結嗎"},{"start":9529.445,"end":9531.386,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":9551.597,"end":9577.078,"text":"主題上當然我們可能在太空時間是不太可能有這個位置去談的但是在我們所謂原住民的區塊或傳統的區塊有沒有可能在現代性的實質科學研究去處理到這個未來搞不好可以走出一條很有趣的路的主題院長您的看法呢可以思考看看這部分確實我們努力的比較少但是確實可以思考看看"},{"start":9578.29,"end":9604.333,"text":"當然這個是內容的這個部分啦所以我丟給你們一些可能性好那科研的應用跟這個跟社會的連結除了在原住民的部分那上回我有跟你們提出一個問題AI對我而言其實大家都會跟著一些口號講但是對我們曾經投入過的人其實那個問題就是說請問他跟非常強大的電腦計算的差異在哪裡"},{"start":9605.943,"end":9634.324,"text":"當然你們現在可能也沒有機會回答這個問題可是我當然一直很希望我的問題能夠被回應因為它不是一言兩語可以講完的所以除了在硬體的部分占很大的經費但在軟體跟應用跟傳統的連結上我覺得院裡面作為最高的研究單位是不是有機會雖然我們一天到晚談整合一天到晚談跨域那到底我們整合了多少跨域了多少"},{"start":9636.285,"end":9655.893,"text":"所以院長好這個就簡單說明這確實這是一個非常重要但是有非常複雜的問題那我們院裡面做所有的這方面的AI的工作幾乎所有都是跨域所有都是整合所以他是無形的進行當中而不是特別說有一個幾個跨域的計劃幾個整合的計劃"},{"start":9659.595,"end":9680.708,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。netesi,我剛才一開始就提醒了所以在原住民的領域你就可以看到很多我剛才提的不是只有原住民領域而是在我們人文"},{"start":9681.581,"end":9683.982,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究院函．為11"},{"start":9703.187,"end":9726.462,"text":"確實正如委員講的我們在計轉的考量並不是以計轉金的高低作為唯一的標準而是希望說這個技術能夠貢獻於社會那怎麼樣讓更多人能夠更有效率的用到這個技術這是我們最主要的考量而不是像一般公司行號是以他的這個計轉金作為唯一的考量"},{"start":9727.122,"end":9741.611,"text":"好的謝謝院長最後一個提醒就是那對於人才回流跟人才培育跟人才工作的平台我希望中央院這邊能夠再多加考量好謝謝好院長請回謝謝林倩琪委員的質詢我們現在請張雅玲委員質詢OK好"},{"start":9764.394,"end":9792.056,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9810.879,"end":9816.886,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9819.481,"end":9847.892,"text":"張委員好謝謝院長就是說其實院長應該也非常了解我非常關注兒童所以上次我其實在兒童科普日還有院區開放日的時候不管是我或是我們的助理其實都有去在現場其實我可以感受到我們的研究團我們的研究人員我們這些院士對小孩的那個熱情跟傳授知識的那一種積極的態度還有幫孩子去規劃整個空間的那一種"},{"start":9849.178,"end":9854.66,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11"},{"start":9871.848,"end":9872.329,"text":" bicyclone"},{"start":9887.819,"end":9889.06,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":9906.509,"end":9924.267,"text":"數理科學組生命科學組跟人文社會組那目前看起來人文社會組的場次呢我還是希望說我們是不是可以有一點點的增加因為我們現在可能都比較偏向科技類的東西我們是不是可以再微調多一點點的人文科技的人文的這個社會學的這個領域"},{"start":9927.211,"end":9948.904,"text":"我也看到了一下就是說其實大家當天的滿意度也都是非常高就是大概有96成的民眾是滿意這次的活動那有97%的民眾都是表達我明年有意願再來參與這樣子的一個活動形式不過我還是想從這幾個數據來跟院長再多做一些討論就是說我們的人次雖然增加了很多但是我們的參與"},{"start":9949.784,"end":9953.625,"text":"度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":9979.373,"end":10003.204,"text":"報告委員我這邊已經有初步的資料那南部呢南部的調查結果滿意度如何呢對我們的滿意度也是高達98%那有96%表示願意明年再來那麼我們這個以這個人次而言呢今年的人次也超過了兩萬五千人次以上兩萬五千人次那今年有多少場次呢在南部在南部有35個場次"},{"start":10005.385,"end":10031.034,"text":"我覺得從這個數據可以看到你看喔你35場次你吸引了兩萬五千人可是我們兩萬五千人次嘛對不對那我們北部是一萬一百個場次吸引了五萬多人表示南部的吸引力非常大對不對更多人來嘛對不對你辦35場就來兩萬五千人所以我也希望明年這個需求很大市場需求蓬勃發展啦好不好我們一起來努力明年開南部更多的場次"},{"start":10033.035,"end":10054.492,"text":"再來就是說我們在這個我希望明年做的問卷調查我們可以再更詳盡的看到縣市的差異我們就可以了解到說是不是都非常集中在雙北我們是不是可以要多做一點宣傳在新竹那南部市只有集中在台南我們要怎麼樣拓展到高雄讓這個涵蓋率可以再更大一點不過我還有一件事情想要跟院長再來繼續討論就是說"},{"start":10056.053,"end":10056.434,"text":"adequ."},{"start":10077.074,"end":10103.892,"text":"那我也在想說我們戶外的空間是不是也可以做一些規劃因為小孩子在裡面等久了他想要出去跑一跑玩一玩我們是不是也有一些活動的規劃在外面讓小孩子可以短暫的去休息一下而不是站在那邊一直等這是不是也可以一併的來調整那這些精進的方案是不是有可能在多久一個月時間呢提供給我還是兩個月報告員秘書處長曾國祥可以在一個月以內提供給你"},{"start":10104.534,"end":10120.004,"text":"好 謝謝那再來我還有一點也是想要再做討論的就是說我們其實有希望可以了解兒童的聲音因為這是第一次做6到12歲的部分嘛那但是我看了一下問卷回收只有17%是由兒童來填答的那我在想我們是不是因為我自己其實看了這個內容齁"},{"start":10121.505,"end":10149.706,"text":"坦白說齁我覺得要6到12歲的小孩來填答難度似乎有點太高了齁我想現場大家也都了解我們是不是可以再依據兒童友善的方式來去設計問卷呢因為現場我們的手冊都做得很可愛啊有注音啊所以我們填答的東西全部都是很尖色的文字他可能根本也搞不懂我到底我剛剛參加的那一場到底跟你看生物化學研究室跟生物醫學科學研究室跟"},{"start":10150.126,"end":10164.935,"text":"分子生物研究室小孩子的理解就是欸都有生物那到底我剛參加的是哪一場可能會搞不清楚我們是不是可以根據兒童的理解他們的視角來重新設計這份問卷明年才能夠去收集更多兒童真實的心聲呢"},{"start":10165.794,"end":10187.947,"text":"好,這個我們會再多做討論,並且請一些專家來幫忙,這可能不是我們的專業。好,沒關係,這個部分的話我也非常願意來跟中研院一起來討論,因為這剛好是我過去的專業,然後我最近的,剛好我去年做的一個案例呢,今年也剛好最近要頒獎,得到一個影響力對話獎,所以我非常願意來協助中研院。"},{"start":10188.967,"end":10214.12,"text":"謝謝委員再來就是說我們的科普日再進一步的在這個部分我們除了做問卷之外我們是不是可以這一次針對今年已經參加過的小孩我們可以來招募他們一起來做一個小型的執畫研究或是focus group的部分來了解明年我們可以怎麼樣更精進搞不好他們的意見就可以反映在我們的問卷裡面這部分我們是不是也可以一起來討論看起來我覺得院長都笑得很開心現場也都笑得很開心應該是沒有問題吧"},{"start":10215.506,"end":10239.179,"text":"這是看我們人力的規劃狀況我們當然很希望說能夠盡量投注但畢竟我們人力有限我們主要的工作仍然是在研究同仁都已經很有熱忱的撥出時間來做這方面我們要看說我們怎麼樣把這個做得不再不影響研究的狀況之下把這做得更好"},{"start":10240.151,"end":10266.771,"text":"好喔 因為我想中研院一定也有做很多人文科學研究的專家啦那也許我們也可以在這個一個月一併討論的剛剛是說一個月之內提供給我一些精進的方案嘛我們是不是也可以把這件事情納入來或者是說約我們辦公室我們再來詳細的討論看我們可以怎麼樣子的來做在不影響大家的工作的狀況之下好嗎那再來就是說最後再來我想要跟我先跳舞一下好了因為我時間可能不太夠"},{"start":10268.939,"end":10295.14,"text":"就是說針對還是人文科學這個領域就是說我們現在在中研院其實是之前在受訪的時候有提到說因為這個AI會這個我們這個中研院有豐富的人文社會資料庫我們應該重視人文AI在人文社會科學領域的應用並反思AI對人類社會的衝擊那您也有提到說大量使用AI會牽扯到法律倫理道德等等的問題所以這就是為什麼我們要辦"},{"start":10295.981,"end":10321.749,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":10321.989,"end":10351.125,"text":"我想問一下您目前對這個辦公室的規劃是什麼樣?可不可以簡單說明一下?我們這個辦公室有很多個區塊那比如AI合作社幫現在已經有的團隊來解決AI上的問題同時我們也積極規劃很多的訓練課程來訓練我們的研究人員及所有中央研究院的同仁包括行政同仁跟研究助理都一起來了解AI怎麼樣把AI用在實際的工作上面。報告時候院長我想要針對在人設領域的部分"},{"start":10352.446,"end":10371.401,"text":"我們也規劃一些專題的專案的研究把我們現有的資料庫怎麼樣AI化在AI化之前一定要有一個能夠用AI來自動辨識一些古籍能夠做這個字體的辨識這個是非常困難但是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":10371.681,"end":10373.042,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":10389.841,"end":10410.394,"text":"資料庫裡面所以我覺得這一點其實是我們最能夠凸顯所有跟華文世界裡面最重要的相關的研究應該都在我們這裡所以這一點我想要了解我們相關的時程那希望事後也可以提供我們這個相關的計畫到我們辦公室我們一起來努力啦讓台灣成為AI的民主文化中心謝謝院長請回喔謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢我們再來請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":10427.577,"end":10430.161,"text":"謝謝主席那有請院長謝謝好有請院長"},{"start":10434.085,"end":10456.837,"text":"陳委員好好 院長好謝謝剛剛雅玲委員幫忙開了頭關於兒童科普日喔院長應該每次看到我就會想到我是在立法院第一個要求我們的open house要針對孩子們的設計喔那孩子們的定義呢現在在聯合國定義是0到18歲那今年我也再次去參加了兒童科普日喔我印象非常深刻"},{"start":10457.617,"end":10463.807,"text":"在我們玩完某一個站點之後到了某一個站玩了完全忘記某一個站但我記得那個站的老師說"},{"start":10465.572,"end":10489.155,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":10489.816,"end":10503.73,"text":"參與這個活動的老師們還有研究室還有他們的研究助理甚至我們還看到現場非常多的高中志工大學志工因為這確實不在原本中研院的業務當中但是老師們助理們還有志工願意用假日的時間"},{"start":10505.051,"end":10527.919,"text":"先用上班的時間設計課程內容然後再用其他額外的時間參與了活動所以我要再次感謝所有中研院的老師但我也想要問我從去年5月18提出那院長你們很快在去年的10月14號就有兒童科普日那中研院南部院區的部分的open house現在活動也舉辦完然後看起來回應非常的好"},{"start":10528.539,"end":10546.288,"text":"如果我再進一步許願有機會我們在人力可行經費可及的情況下有沒有機會在南院也推行兒童科普日機會是有但是我個人目前的想法是先從這個分零標示同一天"},{"start":10547.108,"end":10566.271,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10566.391,"end":10568.574,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":10582.671,"end":10591.053,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。二、處理中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。二、處理中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關"},{"start":10606.297,"end":10630.868,"text":"好那如果有這個部分的活動我再往下看其實中研院還有人文講座今天也有委員提到不管是過去只有今年只有一場在苗栗或者是後續還有其他的規劃如果把我剛剛講的這麼多科普活動我們再複習一下有所謂的open house後來在我去年提出增加了兒童科普日之後我們還有兒童科普日接下來還有南院的open house"},{"start":10631.288,"end":10632.388,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府函．為11"},{"start":10647.313,"end":10669.822,"text":"這些工作流程當中我想問一下目前的預算當然立法院不能主動增加預算但是我真的很好奇目前的人力配置或者是預算的配置在這麼多委員都強烈要求科普跟民眾對話的情況下目前的狀況是很辛苦還是很有餘裕還是說其實你們還有更多的想像但是需要立法院更多的支持"},{"start":10671.002,"end":10693.007,"text":"我們很辛苦,因為這些工作不在我們法定任務裡面。所以我們原來的預算是不會編很多在這邊,必須要想辦法。那假如說這方面要加強的話,可能我們明年的經費要編列的時候需要考量這方面。"},{"start":10693.553,"end":10722.864,"text":"所以院長我想問一下你目前送進立法院的預算有把這麼多的科普的預算都編足編好編滿嗎?我們請秘書處長回答好謝謝是的謝謝委員我們目前的沒有特別把這一項特別的增加那我們明年呢會再神聖的評估是否要在這一塊增加那特別是在人力的部分因為隨著活動量的增加那自然這個人力的需求也會提升好"},{"start":10723.484,"end":10752.796,"text":"我非常樂意聽到這個非常務實的回答也就是說當有更多的民眾的需求被看見當有更多立法委員對於科普的要求的品質更高數量更多的時候如果都丟有秘書處好像只是一檔一檔一檔活動策劃沒有整體的視野沒有整體的預算規劃其實我相信對秘書處或是公關處應該都相對辛苦所以這個部分要拜託院長了明年也就是說你們現在送進立法院的明年的預算沒有辦法"},{"start":10753.396,"end":10771.733,"text":"但是明年在編後年的預算的時候你們會謹慎的考慮把相關的預算編足編好編滿讓更多的科普活動的需求可以被滿足我可以這樣說嗎?好,我們會朝這方向努力好,謝謝喔所以包含我再一次跟院長您強調就是open house的部分還有出版品"},{"start":10772.313,"end":10801.173,"text":"零到18歲的可能性因為目前這些書當然都很好看我自己讀起來可能都還是有一些門檻當然我自己會努力這是我們當然自己要做的努力但是有沒有機會跟相關的專家學者做成更適合小孩閱讀因為現在108課綱裡面強調非常多素養而閱讀的能力或者是學科以外的知識生活中可以用的這些普及性其實也很需要相關的專家學者來協助還有關於人文講座的部分這個就要持續拜託中研院"},{"start":10801.913,"end":10819.492,"text":"最後我想要談一下就是關於博士生獎助金調生的方案一樣在你們的預算書當中你們提到預算增列2.02億我想要知道一下目前是不是全部都用於博士生獎助金的調生那院長您運估會有多少人受惠"},{"start":10821.134,"end":10839.107,"text":"這個數字我請國際處長來回答。好,謝謝。報告委員,現在2.2億是我們總共的預算。那裡面有8千萬,所以在今年有8千萬是用來,專門是放在這個獎學金調升方案上面。那所以這個8千萬已經受惠在700多位的博士生。"},{"start":10839.687,"end":10868.301,"text":"好,700多位我覺得這已經是我們目前還蠻覺得還蠻可以接受的一個數字不過我們希望如果有機會它當然可以更好讓更多的有學術潛力的博士生願意投入研究的行列可是我們也想要知道相關的預算調升方案有沒有機會帶動其他大專院校調升當然我知道大專院校有他們自己的預算規劃但是中研院作為很重要的政策領頭羊院長你在這個部分有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":10868.781,"end":10889.682,"text":"我想我們最主要目的正如委員講的我們是要帶動全國的這個博士生的獎助金提升所以我們的這個實行這個政策之後國科會跟教育部都也推出各自的計畫那我想各校也都有自己這個提升獎助金的計畫"},{"start":10891.648,"end":10908.038,"text":"但是我覺得這個獎助金的計畫當然確實希望可以幫助到更多人投入研究的場域當中然後提升台灣的研究實力不過我認為如果有機會透過跨部會的討論就是由中研院這邊去跟國科會跟教育部就是如同院長您剛剛說的"},{"start":10909.139,"end":10925.014,"text":"他們也都提出相關計畫但是各部會之間的跨平台對話或者是你們在執行當中所遇到的一些可能性的問題或者是好的經驗作為彼此分享不知道有沒有機會在未來可以看見這個可能性過去就有過去我們提供我們的意見給相關部會參考"},{"start":10927.176,"end":10949.882,"text":"獲得的回應是……我想相當正面的我們也期待看到後續更多的可能性可以讓更多的人受惠於這個政策最後我也是要再次強調科普的部分要請中研院多多幫忙相關的預算也請積極的編入來年的預算當中讓更多的科普教育可以面對更多的民眾不管是大人還是小孩"},{"start":10950.462,"end":10973.485,"text":"那出版品的部分也是我希望後續有機會可以跟中研院討論這麼好看的顏值有物有沒有機會透過跟專家學者的合作或是出版專業的團體轉換成0到18歲的孩子也可以讀的內容然後open house的部分把兒童科普入的部分加進去讓他更有可能面對更多孩子讓他們在看手機之外參加這些好玩的活動也真的可以邊玩邊學好嗎"},{"start":10975.766,"end":10984.251,"text":"再一次謝謝院長帶領所有老師的努力那我要再一次謝謝所有老師在Open House兒童科普日對我們孩子的協助謝謝謝謝主席謝謝院長院長請回喔謝謝陳培育委員的質詢再來我們請吳春成委員質詢"},{"start":11008.054,"end":11009.824,"text":"有請那個廖院長有請院長"},{"start":11014.671,"end":11039.903,"text":"午委員好院長好好久不見好像要見你一次很困難一個會期見一次OK好那個中央研究院呢是我非常羨慕的單位但是我們都沒資格進中央研究院所以呢對中央研究院就有非常多的想像跟期待那因為啊這一個"},{"start":11042.313,"end":11064.106,"text":"這個就像立法院我雖然很想跟你們說辛苦了但是立法院實在更辛苦更辛苦對不對每天這個陳出不窮的議題陳出不窮的事情我們都必須要立即的回應但是老實講有些呢我覺得太皮毛了"},{"start":11065.421,"end":11068.522,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":11086.135,"end":11107.398,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":11108.607,"end":11117.327,"text":"這些專家學者能夠好好的用心善於用自己的長處來努力但是"},{"start":11118.667,"end":11143.615,"text":"還是要解決這個我們社會的問題像比如說最近川普狂勝叫狂勝大家都被驚嚇所有的預測都失靈民調機構預測失靈很多研究機構很多包括什麼都是馬後炮開始提出各種的解釋我想要請問院長為什麼"},{"start":11147.755,"end":11175.972,"text":"這麼多的研究單位看不到這樣的事情通常研究單位是什麼樣的這麼大的一個風潮這麼大的改變大型的社會結構在轉變民意在改變的時候大家都為什麼方法都為什麼會這個判斷都沒辦法抓得準這是非常好的問題我個人不是這方面的專家我們是不是請這個比較投入的專家來"},{"start":11178.225,"end":11189.83,"text":"來回應一下問題為什麼一定要施准先不要好了因為這不是我今天問的重點我只是要導出一個問題就是我們"},{"start":11191.345,"end":11209.478,"text":"我們在這樣子的一個研究單位裡面顯然常常會見數不見影太專注了看到大型那個超大的東西的時候就看不到了大家可能因為講究專業嘛就專在一個事情上面那我還是要回來關心的是"},{"start":11210.751,"end":11235.924,"text":"我上次就我關心人口的問題就是在立法院在推動的就是超高齡那10月17號我們國發會也公布的最新人口數據整個的看得出來是更加的險峻更加的嚴重那我還是我上次在3月20號有詢問過這個院長在請問中央研究院有在關注這件事情嗎"},{"start":11237.351,"end":11245.678,"text":"我們在這個人文社會領域有學者專家在這方面進行一些研討我們是不是請專家來"},{"start":11249.037,"end":11275.663,"text":"報告委員我們是人社中心張大謙那我們今年在這個五月之後經過委員的這個建議之後我們有開始盤點我們人社方面在這方面的人口老化的議題那我們現在目前有舉辦了三次的演講包括聚焦在勞動力參與包括在經濟的改革包括在這個健康方面的問題所以我們現在陸續還有三場部分然後後續會提出一些比較具體的一些方案在做建議這樣子OK很好謝謝"},{"start":11278.204,"end":11292.277,"text":"對,這非常期待啦,非常期待就是其實這個問題的嚴重各位專家應該都比我更加的了解我們的65歲老人人口比例各位可以看目前下面這個藍色的部分"},{"start":11293.058,"end":11295.119,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":11317.816,"end":11342.355,"text":"那這個天翻地覆的問題我們顯然我們國內經常會講說欸全世界都沒有在重視啊我們台灣習慣走在全世界的後面尾隨人家但是這件事情我們是要走在全世界的最前面這需要我們的學者也要有這種觀念然後世界上我們要比個因為我們的問題最嚴重那工作人口也是一樣"},{"start":11344.317,"end":11369.013,"text":"這一頁是工作人口工作人口所佔的比例藍色的部分是2024年我們現在是有69.1但是到了2027年會只剩下46.6我們看到歐美各國大概都已經五、六十我們的競爭力又會更低一樣的都比日本還要五十幾"},{"start":11370.758,"end":11377.044,"text":"我們的扶養比,大家也看到目前是3.6,未來下一代一定會被我們壓垮。"},{"start":11380.588,"end":11400.178,"text":"這個問題被稱為是教育問題、國防的問題、社福問題、經濟問題、全面性的崩潰的問題。甚至有人會說有三分之一的台灣的鄉鎮會變鬼城,會變消滅。這一些都是很大的問題,我覺得行政部門眼光沒有那麼圓。"},{"start":11401.459,"end":11404.761,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":11427.092,"end":11445.759,"text":"對,也覺得這個不重要的話那我們整個大家都在睡覺少子化的問題這一次調查出來提早的15年本來估計是2054年這一次預估到2040年就會跌破10萬人然後我們每年投入的1200億"},{"start":11447.813,"end":11467.034,"text":"要想要翻轉少子化但是呢我們的少子化還提早15年顯見是什麼政策方向錯誤對策方向錯誤但是到底要怎麼做我們現在大概都是補助用補助的方法你們請學術單位也提出提出你們的研究的觀察"},{"start":11467.975,"end":11492.726,"text":"第二就是我們的社會高齡化已經定型了已經定型的就是這個問題不可逆轉未來我們的工作人口會消失將近千萬人、八百多萬人這影響的是市場、企業、稅賦、撫養跟消退這全面性這麼大的影響所以是不是可以請問院長在這個問題上面可不可以請院長就這三方面"},{"start":11493.846,"end":11510.798,"text":"當然雖說是自由了,但是可以引導大家來關注從教育的層面、從經濟的層面、從勞工的層面來那因為這個是中央研究院我向這個最重要的宗旨這是善盡社會關鍵的責任這問題絕對是關鍵的,也只有智庫有辦法解決這種問題"},{"start":11515.922,"end":11532.238,"text":"因爲在我們現在的行政單位是沒辦法眼光看超過10年的事情的這麼大的一個天翻地覆的危機我就怎麼樣都喚不醒這個社會大家每天吵的都是眼前的事情那麼是不是能夠請"},{"start":11533.649,"end":11548.903,"text":"中央學術那好接下來我最後是不是要有這樣的期待是不是可以請中央研究院在三個月之內針對這樣子的超高齡少子超高齡社會來有提出一個"},{"start":11549.984,"end":11564.14,"text":"國家級的研究計畫這個計畫你能做到什麼地步我沒有意見但是總是要啟動要把這問題當作一個核心的問題來啟動請大家可不可以在三個月之內給我一份報告你們的構想"},{"start":11564.964,"end":11591.267,"text":"我們可以在三位內跟委員提出我們的構想規定能夠開始計畫但提出的構想或許可以這問題確實是我個人跟眾議院都很關心但是這方面國內的專家學者恐怕人數也不多所以有點實際的困難但是我們仍然會朝這方向等高一呼可能可以要各社會各方面來關注這個議題"},{"start":11592.848,"end":11604.1,"text":"那三個月就拜託院長了,謝謝。好,院長請回,謝謝吳春成委員的質詢。再來是范雲委員質詢,我們請陳秀寶代主席。"},{"start":11617.739,"end":11623.029,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11625.584,"end":11648.31,"text":"院長辛苦了那也謝謝院長在我之前質詢的那個院士國籍的案有非常詳細的說明我們今天解凍報告裡面就說明的很清楚那我知道這個非常的艱困那謝謝院長那今天其實是要針對另外一個問題想請教院長那想請問院長如果有一群人定定一個自律規範"},{"start":11649.77,"end":11651.994,"text":"可是訂定的時候卻沒有訂定違反規定的時候的處理機制。那你覺得這個規範會有用嗎?"},{"start":11658.717,"end":11682.971,"text":"我想這個主要是靠個人的自我約束。靠個人自我約束。對。就有用了。當然不保證說百分之百,但是這是第一步。畢竟這是一個透過一個民主的機制制定出來的。那這個沒有辦法這個用其他方法來輕易來改變。"},{"start":11683.971,"end":11703.773,"text":"按照院長這樣的說法的話那中研院對於員工的性騷、權勢等等就只要訂規範都不用訂申訴跟處理機制?那不是,因為這種是可以從行政面來處理的那我們有不同的法規就可以來"},{"start":11704.113,"end":11722.091,"text":"所以您覺得我們對院士跟對研究員可以用不同的標準對院士的話大家訂了規範就會自己遵行可是對研究員的話因為他們的層級比較低所以就必須訂令處理機制嗎不是因為大部分的院士不在本院任職"},{"start":11722.972,"end":11750.469,"text":"它講院士在本院任職仍然是受我們所有院裡面的規範來限制所以不需要用這個所以因為院士大部分不在本院任職沒錯所以我們的規範因為它是一個榮譽它並不是在本院的人員我們沒辦法約束不在本院之心不在本院工作不是本院人員所以院長認為我們無法約束中華民國院士的行為是這樣嗎"},{"start":11752.15,"end":11758.795,"text":"是要靠這個院士會議自己的運作、程序的運作。好,那其實今天就是想跟院長溝通這個問題啦。我想我們有不同的意見沒關係喔,就可以來處理喔。那院長應該有記得喔,其實不是只有今年3月喔。那我從2021年就針對這一題質詢。然後2023年用預算追蹤喔。那今年3月我一直在問說,欸?"},{"start":11779.989,"end":11799.47,"text":"其他國家的院士都有行為倫理準則也有相關規定包含揭露財產來源利益迴避不得歧視騷擾霸凌等還有傷害學術自由等部分希望中研院也能夠有這種倫理行為準則就是英文講的code of conduct"},{"start":11800.01,"end":11814.008,"text":"我還是要謝謝院長有推動這個部分因為你們給我的回覆就是終於之前因為疫情嘛終於就是在今年7月修改那修改前你們有告訴我們說你們的相關的委員會裡面"},{"start":11815.51,"end":11824.833,"text":"然後因為會中意見多元尚未獲得共識所以顯然裡面是有一些爭吵不同的意見我覺得是好事後來決定要擴大參與繼續研議那最後呢你們參考了國內外學術研究機構那列出來就兩個美國國家科學院"},{"start":11833.816,"end":11862.295,"text":"與聯合國教科文組織的相關的ethics：然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範。還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的,的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神,還增加了增進人類福祉,確保永續環境。第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候,應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊。"},{"start":11865.899,"end":11880.994,"text":"第7條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與預算時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第7條因為前面都是一個進步可是第7條好像把這個責任"},{"start":11882.295,"end":11882.595,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":11912.94,"end":11913.102,"text":"院長覺得"},{"start":11914.435,"end":11942.169,"text":"跟委員報告一下中研院有兩個部分一個是我們實體的研究單位我是院長來負責中理所有的院務另外一個是院士會議我當主席那裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的所以裡面的條文不是中研院定的"},{"start":11942.669,"end":11951.377,"text":"而是院士透過院士會議的基金。我知道,院長剛剛一直說,院士是榮譽職。我們知道他是終身榮譽職。可是這個行為準則出來之後,我還有看到新聞有舉例說,你們的新聞處對外說他跟諾貝爾講一樣,所以沒有這種取消的事。那我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對啦。"},{"start":11966.371,"end":11985.31,"text":"因為你們第8條就講中央研究院院士職權如下一、選舉院士及名譽院士二、選舉評議會這個評議會就是您剛講的中研院非常重要的學術評議會它幾乎是很多事情除了你們的所長在座都是的話那其實院士有這個職權"},{"start":11986.471,"end":12011.925,"text":"還可以籌議國家學術研究方針第四個委託案可能有或沒有我想舉的例子就是右邊這邊舉一些例子讓大家感受院士會不會沒有爭議我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議因為我們有298位可是不排除過去真的有爭議郭惠在2019年香港城市大學擔任校長的學生被港警濫射濫捕關鍵時刻神隱"},{"start":12014.346,"end":12039.82,"text":"我覺得看起來神隱還算是有一些道德良知啦那張翔從2019年到2021年他也是我們的院士在港大校長任內打壓大學自主學生自治涉及他收回了學生會的辦公室還有不承認學生會的地位所以港大因此就沒有學生會那我們不用講他發生學生抗議的時候的一些衝突"},{"start":12040.74,"end":12044.062,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":12057.472,"end":12061.477,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":12075.416,"end":12076.037,"text":" bicy,您覺得這個自律有用嗎?"},{"start":12105.097,"end":12130.489,"text":"我想這個院士雖然有這個職權說籌議國家學術研究方針可是大部分我們國家的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議那中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係沒有直接的關係他們是選評議員他不是來制定中研院的政策中研院政策在場的所有人負責"},{"start":12131.229,"end":12139.464,"text":"在場的向立法院負責,不是院士來負責。所以您的意思是說院士沒有什麼功能嗎?"},{"start":12140.848,"end":12144.669,"text":"不能這樣講就是這樣說的他有這些這個職權他可以提出他的想法我們可以適當的尊重他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛對這點您不否認沒錯那院士的組成也會影響院長是誰嗎您也不否認對不一定不一定我知道那個總統也有一定的權責不是這樣說"},{"start":12167.113,"end":12179.799,"text":"院士不是直接選舉院長是評議員透過一個領選小組來選不是院士是評議員裡面選出來的領選小組到底中研院院士有沒有實質的影響力我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題那我跟院長的意見並不一樣但是我尊重您那我今天只要求一個就是社會科學的一個思辨過程是不是"},{"start":12194.667,"end":12211.51,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":12211.63,"end":12235.182,"text":"小組接受申訴那如果違反像剛剛講的你們這寫得非常漂亮的規定的時候他有調查機制有處理輕則要求道歉然後書面聲明警告重則就是暫時除名一段時間到完全除名那我想也許你會說我們的制度跟英國國家學術院澳洲科學院美國"},{"start":12236.263,"end":12261.23,"text":"相關的就是科學院不完全一樣但是我想我們是中央研究院嘛那我也待過中研院我們是不是請院長承諾你們選五個民主國家相近的院士制度分析一下他們相關的違反倫理的時候的處理機制給本席一個報告好嗎我們分析當然可以但是很重要一點跟委員提醒"},{"start":12262.071,"end":12286.613,"text":"這些都是他們透過他們民主的機制自己定出來的,不是他們院長定的。我知道不是院長您。國籍案我們也做了兩三年,我知道院長有很多的難為之處。您畢竟是院士,就是說出身的。但我想就是說,中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督,您今天就不用來立法院嗎?"},{"start":12289.136,"end":12298.471,"text":"一個是院士一個是中央研究院的研究單位院士並沒有領薪水他也沒有預算要立法院通過他只是有開會的預算"},{"start":12303.617,"end":12320.965,"text":"眾議院每年會審的預算是在做研究的這一部分跟院士的關係是非常微弱只有建議性院士提供一些學術上的資訊只有院士能夠自律就像之前我主張眾議院的院士國籍違反眾議院組織法第8條我們大概"},{"start":12323.866,"end":12349.605,"text":"做了四年的時間我一個任期四年才完成這件事我知道院長也非常的辛苦很多院士拒絕改變可是我們依法論法好不好所以我現在要做的事情只是說那中研院宣稱說別的國家跟我們不一樣那是不是選擇五個民主國家相關的院士制度那給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理的時候的機制好嗎"},{"start":12350.245,"end":12358.007,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11"},{"start":12379.266,"end":12399.994,"text":"二、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議．送第2目一般學術研究及評議預算繼續凍結100萬元．書面報告請查詔案。二、審查中央研究院函．為113年度中央政府總預算決議．送自然及人文社會科學研究預算凍結100萬元．書面報告請查詔案。宣告完畢。"},{"start":12402.673,"end":12418.275,"text":"謝謝所以我們現在處理中央研究院願函就是1、2年度中央政府總預算決議檢送第二幕一般學術研究及評議預算繼續凍結100萬元的書面報告請查照那這個案子我們在場的委員有沒有任何的意見"},{"start":12419.804,"end":12423.007,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":12445.376,"end":12463.504,"text":"不對我念錯了對沒錯那我們檢動案第一案就是審查完畢那我們現在審查第二案第二案是113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議一自然及人文社會科學研究預算凍結100萬元書面報告請查照案"},{"start":12469.238,"end":12481.31,"text":"那有沒有任何的委員有任何的意見?沒有那謝謝那我們這兩案都審查完畢准以動之提報院會那再來我們請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":12493.981,"end":12498.931,"text":"主席我剛剛其實還蠻特別關心你的質詢因為你質詢完以後發現你預時了2分32秒"},{"start":12504.578,"end":12506.32,"text":"我們先請我們的院長,廖院長有請廖院長"},{"start":12530.363,"end":12547.456,"text":"羅委員好院長好那我當然是一直對中研院是非常推崇尊敬但是我們立法委員審查預算其實中研院預算我也看得蠻仔細的我看到蠻多問題但因為時間有限我先對幾個問題來就教那錢當然是要用在刀口上"},{"start":12547.776,"end":12571.201,"text":"雖然中央研究院是一個很重要的單位,但還是要好好地來去使用預算,對不對?是的。好,那我想請教你,中央研究院為了要提高國際傑出人才來台的意願,從2002年起就辦理國際研究生學程,那採全英文教學,那跟十所大學合作十三項學程,這也就是所謂的TIGP的一個計畫,是不是?"},{"start":12571.681,"end":12571.821,"text":"是的請國際處長"},{"start":12595.568,"end":12622.293,"text":"近5年每年招生的人數大概120左右沒什麼大變化就對了那我先提醒一下因為我找不到這個資料我只看到你們給了總數啦那總數的話我就沒辦法對應說今天每年的預算的狀況那我再想請教一下你就說大概每年都120沒什麼變動嘛對不對那可是我看你們的這個所謂的這個TIGP的這個計畫裡面有一個招生宣傳廣告"},{"start":12624.153,"end":12652.23,"text":"那我想請教113年度你編的廣告費是多少?113年度是編20萬那114年度編多少?那邊編了200萬但是有180萬是保留給我們所中心其他的單位使用的那我就要問這件事情你為什麼是把這個計畫保留給所中心其他的單位那你在預算表呈現出來我就看到增加10倍啊院長你不覺得如果我今天立法院審預算我看到一個廣告預算"},{"start":12653.01,"end":12680.098,"text":"你基本上過去的5年人數沒增長突然增加變10倍院長你會不會覺得有點奇怪啊對啊所以我請你把細部報告給我到底為什麼今天要把別的單位的預算放在這個地方來擴編你變成10倍這看起來數字就很奇怪嘛對不對是報告委員因為這個預算是管制項目那在所中心他們在編列的時候過去沒有這樣子的一個做法"},{"start":12680.778,"end":12683.58,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":12698.187,"end":12698.347,"text":"二、審查11"},{"start":12718.085,"end":12725.568,"text":"我看到預算書中研院的科學研究基金這個113年度跟114年這個大幅的增加那其中我覺得幾個關鍵就是說這個國外旅運費114年度跟去年比增加將近七成這是國外的部分可是就有一個特別的地方就是"},{"start":12744.474,"end":12752.099,"text":"大陸的旅費也增加了多少倍?請問一下,院長知道嗎?我直接講啦,大陸旅費增加5倍嘛,對不對?沒錯吧?"},{"start":12761.607,"end":12784.36,"text":"業務的需要我念一段話給您聽因為聽起來就非常的矛盾我不是說不支持而是你到底為什麼今天突然增加5倍以前沒有今年6月行政院才說復入旅遊警示升級為橙色國人要慎重考慮必要性9月的時候海基會副秘書長羅文嘉也說到大陸風險日增"},{"start":12789.022,"end":12813.1,"text":"除非有不得不去的必要性減少前往大陸可是中研院的科研基金你光大陸運費又增加五倍我想要澄清一下這個是不是跟回到疫情前的狀況疫情去年就結束了去年你的經費跟今年經費就差五倍還有我們的經費都是由下而上編列就是看研究人員的需求"},{"start":12813.22,"end":12814.62,"text":"為什麼增加5倍?這個事後給我一個報告好嗎?"},{"start":12832.626,"end":12835.288,"text":"主席好,有請院長有請院長"},{"start":12858.733,"end":12878.207,"text":"翁委員好是廖院長您好我想這個廖院長大概知道本席基本上也是來自於學界所以呢其實我一直都很關心而且也很尊敬就是中研院的這個相關的研究但是呢其實我之前我並不知道中研院的研究經費的狀況是如何"},{"start":12880.288,"end":12905.864,"text":"所以在我這一次我也仔細看了與本席這個專業領域比較相關的人文社會科學領域的這個各所的研究經費之後呢我嚇一跳為什麼因為這個中研院人文社會科學領域的各個所我相信絕對不只是人文社會這些研究所的經費遠比大學的經費要多得多"},{"start":12907.674,"end":12926.945,"text":"獎勵在自然領域的情況也是一樣的。那麼以我現在在圖表上面這裡所列舉的這個大概屬於社會領域的有6個研究單位裡面他們平均的每一個研究員的可以分配到的研究經費都是200多萬"},{"start":12929.386,"end":12952.199,"text":"一年一個人200多萬這個數字基本上是比我們在大學裡面可能有一個單位比如說法學院可能他一年的業務費都才只有200萬然後給下面非常多的不同的老師們去使用而中研院的每一個研究員的平均的能夠得到的經費就差不多就200多萬這其實是非常高的"},{"start":12954.46,"end":12956.281,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":12977.812,"end":13004.311,"text":"所以絕對不是兩百多萬那個要跟院長報告您講的我都了解因為呢確實所謂的研究業務經費裡面可能還包含這些不同的項目但是同樣的在大學裡面的狀況也是如此的那當然我現在要講的就是說是中研院你今天編了這麼多的錢那當然我們就要看就是到底研究員的表現如何這個所他的表現的研究成果如何那本席是從"},{"start":13005.732,"end":13007.894,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":13028.655,"end":13032.416,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":13057.942,"end":13061.827,"text":"這個很多學程跟課程其實坦白說那效果很差"},{"start":13063.103,"end":13064.084,"text":"二、處理中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":13087.905,"end":13102.566,"text":"的研究我認為中研院他作為國家最高的研究機構我覺得你的目標要清楚有時候不應該跟大學去競爭去搶資源在很多的項目上面應該要更清楚你的定位"},{"start":13103.308,"end":13118.009,"text":"議員最後講的那句話我們非常認同但是我們不是搶資源我們是幫助大學比如說委員舉的這些例子跟大學合開學程但是我們是採精英主義所以我們不跟大學競爭大學是以量取勝"},{"start":13119.531,"end":13120.191,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":13147.24,"end":13163.316,"text":"這是本席給您的建議就是說你們可以再去思考看看這個採基因主義固然沒有錯但是就大學裡面通識課程是不是就已經可以滿足了那麼更何況確實在實際的成效裡面是很差的選修人數也非常的少這個之後的話以後有機會再跟院長這裡再溝通相關的問題謝謝院長請回"},{"start":13170.682,"end":13175.044,"text":"要提供相關的分析報告謝謝翁曉琳委員的質詢再來是麥玉珍委員質詢謝謝主席 有請院長麥委員好"},{"start":13197.082,"end":13218.457,"text":"院長好。想要請教一下天然氣去碳燃氫的MW級混氫發電系統建置及試驗計畫。中科院一年前就公布淨零科技政策建議書,強調創造足夠的零碳電力為我國淨零"},{"start":13225.301,"end":13241.075,"text":"計劃策略的重中置重提供出包含就是氣碳燃氫的五大優先推動新科技台灣約七成碳排來自"},{"start":13243.997,"end":13264.651,"text":"發電．為推動2050近年排放的目標．發展低碳電力很重要．在中研院114年的預算中．有看到的天然氣．氣碳、燃氫的MW級的混氫發電．系統自治的"},{"start":13266.012,"end":13270.394,"text":"試驗計畫請教院長現在這個混清的發電系統建制進度如何?我們現在在做規模放大我們第一個目標是要在新打廠在兩年後跟他MW的機組做串接那目標是到10%到20%的混清發電"},{"start":13292.483,"end":13311.613,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13312.834,"end":13330.186,"text":"院長知道今年台中火力發電廠即將在4個燃氣發電機組沒有考慮來台中跟台電合作,把台中的火力發電廠作為示範點,改善台中火力發電廠的碳排的問題。"},{"start":13334.889,"end":13356.254,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13357.278,"end":13373.548,"text":"請教院長為何選定就是高雄的新打電廠而不是台中即將要新設燃氣機組作為示範基地呢?因為它的現有場域還有看這場域的有沒有足夠的空間能夠建置這個設備所以主要是靠這個實際的限制"},{"start":13379.551,"end":13397.705,"text":"但是我們認為不要只把高雄的的那個信達電廠就是為混沁的發展示範基地因為台中現在要建新的機組所以直接在建新的機組的話納入規劃不只是改善還可以促進經濟的效益而且台中是全國來自世界上的"},{"start":13407.192,"end":13411.895,"text":"的全民火力排碳發電電廠所以不管現在的條件還是改善的排碳的急迫性臺中是最佳的選擇也是請我們的院長可以在為我們臺中這邊就是發展的事辦的可能性嗎?"},{"start":13426.604,"end":13446.449,"text":"好,這部分我們會跟台電商量,因為畢竟這是台電的場域,台電必須要做決定。那我們可以建議,但是實際很多困難是我們沒辦法參與。是是是,但是我們是認為,我們是不管是車子還是科技,我們都以先進的來說,我們重新有一個台車子裡面需要的設備,就以先進的先做。"},{"start":13452.09,"end":13480.879,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13480.899,"end":13485.481,"text":"我們會跟台電整合商量。謝謝。謝謝主席。那我們麻煩院長。好,有請院長。"},{"start":13505.13,"end":13529.803,"text":"院長午安我想請教院長的是就是有位院長有提到說我們人工智慧的發展這部分是要以人為本的精神去發展這院長在之前9月份的時候演講有提到那我想請問一下你知不知道我們立法案其實已經有提出這個人工智慧的基本法我們有提這個草案出來"},{"start":13531.763,"end":13545.028,"text":"我知道這個新聞但是內容並不了解很清楚因為我自己我自己有提出了這個草案那當然這個就要看之後的審查的速度了那當然我還是一個是一個以人為本的這個觀念"},{"start":13545.828,"end":13563.865,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":13563.945,"end":13568.128,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":13589.653,"end":13592.902,"text":"的一些報告。我想請問一下目前台灣發展能夠面臨最大問題是什麼?"},{"start":13595.783,"end":13621.389,"text":"最大問題可能第一關是資料我們需要很多的資料的問題特別是跟台灣相關的資料包括台灣的社會政治經濟那個軟體部分硬體部分最大需求是什麼當然算力硬體部分最大需求是算力我們現在算力這個遠遠落後於我們實際的需要沒關係那我跟你先說好了其實我們現在還是能源的問題"},{"start":13622.749,"end":13637.687,"text":"因為那個人工智慧的演算機它需要大量的能源沒錯那我也有看到你們也有因為你們是算是像幕僚單位嘛那你們也有提供一些資料我們是研究單位我們不是幕僚政府OK那個研究單位那我想請問一下"},{"start":13639.194,"end":13659.632,"text":"中央研究院上個會期就是你們有提出一個在2050年的時候其實我們需要的這個電力的需求到5000億度電但是目前只有2800億度這個沒有錯吧是的那你有沒有想過就是說那我們如果說要去推動人工智慧的話那我們的電力需求跟得上嗎"},{"start":13660.802,"end":13670.171,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。 bicyn 經濟部在2022年曾經發過一個新聞稿,曾經說2025年希望太陽能光電的發電量是到200萬千瓦,但是到現在你知道多少嗎?"},{"start":13683.384,"end":13707.642,"text":"到8月今年8月我們講實際發電度數不是裝置容量的話大概今年8月大概280多億度而已對大概是說我們用電量的10%左右甚至可能更少我們講的是不是這個這個像這邊是裝置容量不是不是綠能欸我說太陽能太陽能欸那更少沒關係啦那我這些數據告訴你好了不然這樣繞來繞去我跟你講啦就是說"},{"start":13709.142,"end":13735.311,"text":"經濟部說2025年要到200萬千瓦但是到現在今天為止到8月為止才136遠遠差很多而且太陽能建置的話一開始是最簡單之後會越來越難因為土地取得的問題所以即使到現在已經到136即使經濟部說還要再延後到2026才達成200萬但是我跟你講我個人這樣看覺得可能性太低了因為"},{"start":13735.911,"end":13741.354,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":13760.163,"end":13760.263,"text":"二、審查11"},{"start":13779.722,"end":13800.771,"text":"我這邊就補充一個就是說因為這些東西不管太陽能風能它都是靠天吃飯它有沒有辦法去彌補這個發電的缺口這是一個很大的問題而且現在民眾抗爭很嚴重土地取得比以前更加困難所以你將來這些綠能的你的發展一定會比之前的速度更慢"},{"start":13801.451,"end":13804.733,"text":"政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央"},{"start":13830.365,"end":13858.778,"text":"你如果說基金附屬要推遲到2026那你們要去評估說這個到底有沒有可能性因為你們是技術單位嘛那是不是說能夠給我們一個就你們自己當初提出來的再生能源的報告能夠更具體的把這個期程目標給我們一下跟委員請教一下我們6月沒有提報告啊我手上有一個2024年6月14日的再生能源說明報告那個不是我們喔"},{"start":13859.338,"end":13874.609,"text":"OK好沒關係那這個部分我會再去理解一下看是我的資料錯誤還怎麼樣但是呢如果說有相關的資料的話有相關的你們有提相關我們看一下PPT好了是"},{"start":13877.762,"end":13883.665,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":13893.969,"end":13916.922,"text":"還有一些基礎的一些建設包括儲能設備等等這個有什麼樣的問題就是你們你們有提過的這個就麻煩一下能夠更具體的給我們那我們想要研究一下麻煩三個月內給我們好謝謝謝謝院長院長請回謝謝吳宗憲委員的質詢徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員羅廷偉委員請質詢最後一位"},{"start":13922.452,"end":13949.899,"text":"好謝謝昭緯有請院長有請院長羅委員好好院長好院長上次拜訪我的時候啊當時你有跟我提到天然氣啊去碳藍金的這一項技術是那當時我想大家都很關心我們的社會啊到底現在面對能源的危機有什麼樣的因應措施我想對這個天然氣啊去碳藍金呢我們有這樣子的一個混金發電勢必"},{"start":13951.639,"end":13965.991,"text":"在過程當中有一些研究我想要就幾個問題跟你請教一下天然氣發電會不會造成空汙天然氣發電的造成空汙遠比這個煤要少很多沒有錯我們但是這個是比較問題但我現在問你就單純"},{"start":13970.049,"end":13987.098,"text":"我們請教天然氣發電有沒有造成空污那它仍然是會排二氧化碳從廣義角度仍然是會有這個二氧化碳的排放但是排放已經很少那我們用去碳燃金就是希望說進一步再降低它的排碳"},{"start":13987.958,"end":13988.999,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":14003.335,"end":14027.071,"text":"所以為什麼中研院會去研究這一項技術就是我們個人有認為天然氣在燃燒的過程有所謂的排碳的問題所以我們希望能夠達到好還要更好還要再追求完美所以中研院研究這樣的技術我們認同啊所以今天我們看到天然氣發電是會造成少數的空污可以這樣子去形容對吧就是說它會排碳"},{"start":14027.751,"end":14028.972,"text":"三、處理中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":14042.844,"end":14043.484,"text":"好,那今天問題又來啦。"},{"start":14071.317,"end":14097.55,"text":"你們這個所謂的新的技術天然氣氣炭燃清吶這個混金的一個發電你們最後選在興達嘛也就是高雄那你跟我講說欸這個是你們是計劃性那最重要的是台電在合作執行面在台電那台電選擇了興達高雄廠那有沒有這個機會中研院去做高度的建議其實台中也可以做一個參考這個部分"},{"start":14097.89,"end":14098.471,"text":"我坦白跟你講怎麼可能會沒有?"},{"start":14116.65,"end":14133.38,"text":"中火作為世界前幾大火力發電台灣第一大火力發電現在正在做所謂的蒸汽的一個工程他當然可以把天然氣機組改成所謂的混金發電阿"},{"start":14134.321,"end":14156.432,"text":"但是那個大型基礎我們現在基礎還沒有辦法到那個階段很抱歉我們希望示範基地台中也有這樣子的機會嘛再來把所謂的藍莓基礎拆除掉藍莓基礎拆除掉一定會有更大的空間來做混金發電嘛這是可以討論的這個都可以討論但是事實上中研院有沒有強力的建議我希望雖然我們因為我曾經許諾過"},{"start":14157.512,"end":14182.953,"text":"不排除任何形式的來想辦法讓中央對台中好一點我也希望在這個場域上能夠建議你拜託你能夠跟台電來建議混金發電示範基地能夠選擇在台中這個部分您可以幫我們發聲嗎我想我們不只在台中不只在興達我們希望在全國各地都能夠做從小規模開始漸漸的擴散到我們持續關注這一項技術的發展也希望您能夠幫台中人說話好不好"},{"start":14184.014,"end":14198.619,"text":"好謝謝那再來我想請問一下因為中央院算是總統府直屬的那在這幾個月當中我們看到賴清德總統上任至今有沒有跟你開會討論或者是探討未來性有沒有什麼研究計畫這個部分可以分享嗎"},{"start":14199.521,"end":14226.916,"text":"主要是談能源的問題跟南部園區的發展能源有沒有任性社會這部分倒比較少都是能源為主能源跟南部園區的發展我希望就剛剛還是延伸剛剛的問題既然他有討論到能源是不是所謂的混金發電能夠建議他中火不乏是一個選項我想有這個機會從你的口中講出對台中人有利的話或許總統他也可能會採納這部分可以嗎"},{"start":14228.516,"end":14230.597,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案"},{"start":14251.004,"end":14265.88,"text":"我不知道,但是這個中央研究院被人家比喻成漢林院只是一個比喻。沒關係沒關係,這個我們沒有要救教,這是網路上的一個探討。我們沒有要做任何的批評。我只是跟你說救教這樣子的一個前言。"},{"start":14266.36,"end":14285.095,"text":"哦,那這個部分我不了解。好,沒關係,有機會網路上翻一翻漢林學士跟漢林供奉的一個差別。我想我們要正視的是一些問題。我們現在看到,老師講中研院的一個社會科學的研究,實際上是某些部分是有在退步的。你有發現嗎?"},{"start":14286.758,"end":14312.363,"text":"社會科學研究我想經濟的空間是有但是我恐怕不見得說是那你聽聽看我說退步的地方在哪裡好不好當然我不會去否認某些人正在努力而是外部的一些因素也造成了這個社會科學的研究上造成一些斷層比如說台灣的學生願意在教育上投資自己的意願是越來越少"},{"start":14313.143,"end":14324.571,"text":"好那再來台灣社會科學學生出國深造的我們看到比例也逐漸降低這都會影響到我們在社會科學研究產生一些斷層"},{"start":14326.196,"end":14353.583,"text":"這部分事實上問題相當複雜因為台灣現在大力要發展社會科學特別在大學也發展社會科學的研究所那假如我們已經很少的學生我們又鼓勵他到國外去念書那我們收到什麼樣的學生就這兩件事情是互斥的所以您當然會看到說我們出國人少那可能是因為我們在國內希望也大力發展"},{"start":14354.663,"end":14383.253,"text":"社會科學研究所的學程所以是這樣子的狀況當然我們仍然可以多鼓勵學生投入社會科學因為畢竟社會科學是非常重要的所以我們也推出了中央研究院人文社會科學精英獎學金博士生的精英獎學金一次給他五年的獎助金讓他沒有生活的憂慮能夠前兩年拿四萬後三年拿五萬"},{"start":14384.433,"end":14407.793,"text":"所以我們透過這樣子的方案來講註國內的社會科學當然我們不是說一昧的鼓勵我們這些學生一定要出國但是我想就像你說的雖然是互斥但是我們也不能夠排除出國深造他所學到的知識不一定我想這個部分你可以認同吧在台灣有台灣深造的一些好處在國外也有國外的好處"},{"start":14408.353,"end":14409.934,"text":"閱讀中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案"},{"start":14431.549,"end":14452.598,"text":"當時當每當國內外發生種種的與經濟直接或間接的相關議題在各類媒體和訊息管道都可以看到這兩個財團法人提出種種的分析那我想這兩個財團法人就像我之前有跟你講過的台灣綜合研究院以及財團法人中華經濟研究院那這兩個財團法人提出的種種分析跟看法"},{"start":14453.098,"end":14463.554,"text":"而中央研究院幾乎沒有只會寫期刊文章當時你也有給我一些回應說會請經濟所可以思考朝這個方向來做稍微的調整請問後續呢我們請經濟所副總長"},{"start":14466.947,"end":14495.416,"text":"委員好經濟所現在陳林所說我們大部分同仁從事的是基礎科學的經濟研究但是慢慢的也在像我們每半年有一次的這個經濟預測它的這個運作也慢慢擴充了包括我們已經開始從事一個台灣消費者預期跟政策反應調查另外也有越來越多同仁開始從事政策研究包括勞工改革勞保的改革"},{"start":14495.996,"end":14510.228,"text":"包括這個這個長照健保的部分所以我們也未來也在12月要開一個研討會那有改進都好但是我想國際上跟國內有許多重要的議題比如川普2.0的一個局勢發展"},{"start":14511.909,"end":14512.169,"text":"院長您覺得呢?"},{"start":14534.437,"end":14560.188,"text":"我覺得朝這方向努力是對的因為我們的三大這個院警目標之中其中是是善盡社會關鍵責任就是這一項我想我們投入這麼多筆的預算在中研院符合社會的期待當然你們有很多的重擔跟眾所的期盼責任重大但是我們都希望中研院可以更好符合社會的一個期待那我想另外再請問一下風機研究這個部分"},{"start":14561.128,"end":14585.006,"text":"風機研究我們都看到風能發電機是嗎?風機對,風機研究我們沒有做這方面的研究有啦在這就一位同仁2016年你上任的時候2018年有做這樣中央醫院環境變遷中心有進行一項研究去了解風機低頻噪音對心臟的不利影響不好意思我標題講的比較短那你等我敘述內容嘛好不好"},{"start":14585.686,"end":14601.135,"text":"好那都有做這個民眾啊居民經過兩年的監測紀錄長期接收低頻噪音後居民心率的變異顯著增加心率變異可能會引起頭痛難以集中注意力"},{"start":14601.815,"end":14628.572,"text":"疫怒、疲勞、頭暈相關的研究指出。好那最後我要想的是你們有這樣的研究那最後我預計大概是10月左右才出來的這份研究那政府你們有沒有去建議他們會不會採納他後續有沒有什麼一樣的一個具體的作為我們希望會後能夠提供給我你們的研究很好但政府有沒有採納政府有沒有實際去做這些事情我們要後續來追蹤這個部分麻煩你好謝謝"},{"start":14630.646,"end":14658.26,"text":"那就請院長後續再跟羅委員報告。謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢。那院長請回。關於我們的質詢都已經結束。關於今天的會議做如下決議。第一,報告及詢答完畢。二、委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報。三、對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分。"},{"start":14659.02,"end":14685.216,"text":"請相關機關競訴以書面答覆。第四、一二年度及一一三年度中央政府總預算有關中央研究院主管預算解凍案兩案,業宜審查完均,準以動之提報院會。第五、一一四年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案、中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案。"},{"start":14685.896,"end":14697.783,"text":"相關提案請於11月18日下午2點前提出,令定期繼續審查。報告委員會今天議程處理完畢,現在休息。謝謝各位。"},{"start":14716.243,"end":14727.093,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函，為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函，為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案。"}]}},{"id":"16249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16249","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc8be0a0888e7d7104b761654f0ebe352dedb79b8bfb08e7996da4f69e6c8a8bc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「稅務行政事件審理法草案」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-11","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-11T08:31:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-11T12:48:00+08:00","duration":15405,"影片長度":"04:16:45","委員發言時間":"08:31:15 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委員會蔡草安主任委員歡迎您"},{"start":1818.376,"end":1833.55,"text":"第5位是智慧財產及商業法院我們的汪漢清 汪庭長歡迎您第6位是我們中華民國會計師公會全國聯合會稅制稅務委員會的陳世陽陳顧問歡迎您"},{"start":1840.762,"end":1868.802,"text":"好那再來我們藉著介紹列席的政府機關代表我們歡迎司法院副秘書長黃玲倫黃副秘書長歡迎您好那其他的包括有行政訴訟及懲戒廳的陳怡怡廳長歡迎您以及財政部負稅署陳惠啟副署長歡迎您以及官務署陳文玲陳組長歡迎您"},{"start":1870.803,"end":1899.386,"text":"以及法制處的吳慧琦 吳科長 歡迎您以及臺北國稅局檢任機和陳輝郎 陳檢機還有我們法務部的參事 廖江憲 廖參事 歡迎您以及經濟部國際貿易署主任秘書 戴婉容 戴祖密 歡迎您以及社會財產局的林希燕 林主任秘書 歡迎您"},{"start":1902.125,"end":1902.425,"text":"請議事人員宣讀公聽會討論提綱"},{"start":1915.716,"end":1943.894,"text":"討論提綱一稅務行政事件審理法要解決的是現行制度下的哪些問題二所創設對民眾加課的協力義務與人民既有的人權保障有何衝突三徵社稅務審查官是否向稅務行政機關傾斜致人民處境更為不利四稅務行政事件審理法與納稅者權利保護法適用對民眾產生何種不同的作用"},{"start":1944.894,"end":1973.915,"text":"兩者的競合會不會置私欲焚宣讀完畢好謝謝我們繼續補充介紹剛到場的包括有國立台灣大學法律學院陳衍任陳助理教授歡迎您以及國立中正大學財經法律學系的黃俊傑黃教授歡迎您以及國立成功大學法律學系的陳文晶陳副教授"},{"start":1982.503,"end":1995.275,"text":"在邀請各位發言之前,有幾點說明首先,請學者專家先發言,發言順序依照簽到先後順序如果需要提前發言,請先告知主席台,我們會視情況作為調整"},{"start":1998.137,"end":2022.331,"text":"本院委員按照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場本席會穿插安排請委員發言最後再請政府機關代表發言針對學者專家及委員的意見加以回應與會者請至發言臺發言在主席右手邊為學者專家列席機關代表的發言臺在我的左手邊則為委員的發言臺由於公聽會"},{"start":2026.053,"end":2050.09,"text":"主要是聽取學者專家各界意見所以每位學者專家發言時間為10分鐘本院委員發言時間為5分鐘那必要的時候我們會再開放第二輪的發言與回應好那首先我們請學者專家發言那依序請第一位我們第一位就請范文清范副教授請"},{"start":2061.558,"end":2066.692,"text":"主席中委員還有在座的各位學者專家然後這個各位先進大家好"},{"start":2067.515,"end":2091.689,"text":"我今天針對新擬聚的稅務行政事件審理法草案提供一點我個人的淺見供各位著參首先大家都知道稅務案件在行政法院裡面訴訟案件的數量非常多佔到差不多五成左右"},{"start":2092.91,"end":2093.01,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2114.628,"end":2115.108,"text":"本法可以從兩個方向來觀察"},{"start":2141.757,"end":2167.207,"text":"行政訴訟的一個特別法也就是說行政訴訟裡面針對稅務案件的一個特別法那另外一個角度是他就是針對稅法的一些特性所制定的這個特別的規則那從他是行政訴訟的特別法來說裡面有幾個條文我覺得都很好比方說第8條應該是以行政處分原處分為徵訟對象然後第6條要求這個"},{"start":2171.949,"end":2172.329,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2196.054,"end":2215.436,"text":"若針對後續處分不符,則針對基礎處分原則上是不可以不符的原則上當然有例外規定等等的這些我就不一一細數這些規定大體上我覺得都會一定程度上有助於草案本身所希望解決的萬年稅單"},{"start":2217.538,"end":2217.618,"text":"主席"},{"start":2232.948,"end":2233.108,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2250.067,"end":2278.259,"text":"當事人跟第三人要合一確定那今天的那個前階段的行政組份的那個行政機關一定會跟本案的這個科稅有合一確定的必要嗎如果沒有合一確定的必要我們只是為了像草案裡面那個說明裡面是要提供專業意見那我想這個要合一確這個可能沒有必要搞到參加這是第一件事情第二件事情在那個第12條"},{"start":2280.02,"end":2307.567,"text":"12條以下可能是我個人對於本草案最有疑慮的地方也就是說首先12條這邊規定說當事人有協力義務11條規定有協力義務這個我當然完全同意可是12條這邊規定說當事人或者是受當事人委託的第三人然後如果他拿到資料應該要提出這當然也沒有問題"},{"start":2308.447,"end":2327.779,"text":"不過他第三項他提到說如果不提出的話要強制處分那我覺得這可能就有一點過頭了這也就是說我如果不提出那這個行政這個依據這個立法理由的說明他說他可以動用那個這個強制處分那如果是這樣的話這會不會有點太過我的意思是說"},{"start":2328.9,"end":2345.004,"text":"我請你提出資料 證據資料 然後你不提出 那我就讓你敗訴就好了嘛那我動用到這個強制處分 逼你提出 強制你提出這會不會有一點點違背比例原則啊這個是不是有必要思考一下然後呢 13條這邊提到說"},{"start":2348.981,"end":2374.258,"text":"13條提到說當事人有必要到場我當然完全同意當事人當然原則上有必要到場可是一方面後面提到說當事人強制律師代理大部分的情況下強制律師代理那當事人還必須要到場嗎這是第一還必須一定要到場嗎這是第一第二當事人如果不到場根據這個"},{"start":2376.741,"end":2376.781,"text":"委員會公聽會議"},{"start":2393.53,"end":2393.55,"text":"第14條"},{"start":2410.204,"end":2436.231,"text":"當事人不能拒絕履行協力義務哪怕是他有因為提出這些證據資料有受刑事訴追的危險他也不能拒絕提出這些證據資料這個我想可能就稍微有點過頭了這個恐怕跟不治正己罪的要求是有違背的所以我是覺得這樣的一個條文可能是有一點點過頭然後"},{"start":2440.249,"end":2455.198,"text":"這個草案裡面提到說這個條文是仿照德國租稅通責103條但是如果看一下德國租稅通責103條那是針對非當事人非當事人他才可以拿出他才可以拒絕證言當事人這個你還要給他罰還這可能有一點點過頭了再來是在那個"},{"start":2467.133,"end":2493.906,"text":"二十六條的地方二十六條他說法院可以推計科稅我當然完全同意法院當然可以推計科稅因為稅這個案子稅的這種特性就是如果你沒有拿出足夠的證據資料我沒有辦法足夠清楚的去計算那個稅額我當然也就有很大的可能性必須要用推估的方法來科稅以現行的條文來說所得稅法83條就有那樣的規定不過"},{"start":2496.246,"end":2514.015,"text":"推計課稅的前提曾如納稅者權利保護法裡面所提到的推計課稅的前提是當事人違背了他的協力義務也就是說我不提出或我沒有完整的提出然後讓稅務機關沒有辦法完整的審查然後我再來推計課稅好 如果是這個樣子的話"},{"start":2516.177,"end":2529.915,"text":"26條好像看不出來說他要違背了推計科稅 行政法院才能這個當事人要違背了這個協力義務 然後行政法院才來推計科稅那這件事情可能需要"},{"start":2532.028,"end":2548.145,"text":"澄清一下,也就是說這件事情,現在草案的26條是不是真的打算沒有履行協定義務也可以推進課稅,這個可能要考慮一下否則的話就會跟納保法有體系上的衝突"},{"start":2550.527,"end":2563.762,"text":"最後一個條文我個人有意見的最後一個條文29條他說這個行政處分違法然後所以法院原則上要撤銷完全正確完全支持那可是呢這個第一項的"},{"start":2565.08,"end":2588.528,"text":"第一項但書提到說,若訴院決定違反重要程序規定,應該撤銷訴院決定,移送訴院管轄機關,重新進行一次訴院程序。我覺得這個條文可能誤解了訴院。訴院不是法院的審計。"},{"start":2590.575,"end":2590.675,"text":"委員會公聽會議"},{"start":2608.869,"end":2610.09,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會"},{"start":2639.409,"end":2640.99,"text":"以上報告,謝謝各位"},{"start":2668.428,"end":2682.014,"text":"主席 黃立委還有在座的專家學者 現在是人權協會 我是代表中華人權協會來表達稅務行政稅審法的一些意見"},{"start":2684.131,"end":2707.87,"text":"今天討論的議題就是其實第一個最重要的就是說能不能解決萬年稅單的問題那事實上我們在看稅審法29條第三項第三跟第四項的情形的時候會覺得說事實上是容許法院的撤銷員處分命令稅券機關定為處分但是事實上在這種情況之下是真的沒有辦法真正解決萬年稅單的問題所以如果要"},{"start":2710.792,"end":2729.566,"text":"法條要這樣子規定的話其實應該要限制、撤銷、發回僅以一次為限才能夠真正解決萬年稅單其實我們要強調說這個稅審法它的利益真的非常的良善它是很希望分爭一次解決但是在分爭一次解決的情況之下是不是會能夠兼顧保障"},{"start":2730.567,"end":2730.887,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":2748.326,"end":2771.78,"text":"接下來就是有關於舉證責任這個部分因為現在資訊時代真的是機關所掌握的課稅資料真的是不亞於義務人那法條的設計用那種救思維的角度會造成不利於義務人的結果其實行政訴訟跟稅務訴訟其實多年來都採的是職權調查主義可是我們都知道說"},{"start":2772.981,"end":2801.058,"text":"行事訴訟法過去也是採資權調查主義經過歷年的修正之後採的是改良式的當事人主義之後更能夠兼顧保障當事人的利益那稅審法行政訴訟法利益良善希望說機關能夠賦予一個更有更有強大的力量來保障人權但是實行下來之後我們會覺得說其實事實上並非如此那草案第11條第2項裡面尤其是提到就是說"},{"start":2802.219,"end":2816.905,"text":"前向調查當事人應協力為之那這種情況的規定變成是把稅監機關會誤會說他只是一個協力義務而只是補充的地位而無需再負舉證責任那為落實機關的舉證責任我們會建議說是不是應該乾脆參考《刑事訴訟法》改裁改良適合當事人的進行主義"},{"start":2825.069,"end":2832.632,"text":"建議配合第二項修正為前項調查在行政計畫之舉證責任已完盡事實能有不明義務人有配合協力之義務否則的話其實12條的規定是根本就是讓義務人去負一個無限上綱的一個協力義務甚至還有一個還有懲罰還有處罰凌駕不自證己罪的法律原則所以我們會建議刪除的是第4項的一些規定"},{"start":2852.24,"end":2864.086,"text":"甚至有第13條會規定說義務人不到場得處罰其實我們在看稅審法的一些立法裡有些內容其實寫得非常的好但是事實上坦白講"},{"start":2865.99,"end":2882.826,"text":"你的條文裡面其實是沒有放進去的那13條裡面我們提到說你第一項記稱當事人第二項也沒有提到原處分機關就是故意的排除也就是你要當事人來如果負責人他是一個法人代表人"},{"start":2883.647,"end":2890.173,"text":"那他其實已經 既然是強制律師代理 已經請了律師來了為什麼一定要他叫當事人來 然後還可以連續處罰那機關呢 機關的承辦人員 負責人 如果不來呢他當時候在核定的時候 他的意思表示內容是什麼他如果都不來的話 也是找了一個法務科的 或者是其他單位的人來的時候是不是應該要做連續懲處的一個規範呢"},{"start":2910.49,"end":2911.151,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2933.821,"end":2950.637,"text":"稅務審查官的資格,因為資格是規定在行政法院組織法修正草案裏面我們看到稅審官的制度顯然是高度參考了制裁法院的紀審官的規定但是我們覺得這個本質跟紀審官是完全不同的"},{"start":2952.179,"end":2968.056,"text":"稅務人員他本來就要查稅這是他的目的甚至他有他的考核績效獎金的部分所以稅官為了維護他自己的稅單的有效性立場上就是人民的對立面那跟這個專利的審查官立場是完全不同的"},{"start":2969.516,"end":2979.36,"text":"制裁法院是採的是當事人的進行主義,紀審官是一個完全是中立的所以他的紀審官他可以從制裁局的專利的審查官轉過去那我們覺得說這個是可受公平的甚至這幾年實行下來,撤銷的案件,舉發成功的案件"},{"start":2991.225,"end":2999.208,"text":"比例上也非常的高可是我們知道從以前到現在稅務案件的訴訟其實人民敗稅率極高所以我們會認為說在人民沒有辦法信任稅審官是由這個稅捐機關的人員派任下來的情況之下去設定這個稅審官的這個資格能力派任這個部分我們是值得考會值得懷疑的"},{"start":3017.313,"end":3031.208,"text":"甚至不如是有指派一個專家學者來當一個審查因為他的目的是為了協助法院去查掉相關的資格資料的部分那可以請會計師或者是其他專家學者來查這個部分"},{"start":3032.99,"end":3056.835,"text":"我覺得都可以表達意見不見得一定要有一個稅審官的這樣子的資格那說真的在我的實務立場上面包含我們在新加坡的訴訟案件過程當中我的實務上面曾經有新加坡的案件當法院認為說這個案件有一些需要專家的時候他就指定指派一個專家另外開一個程序部分由專家來認定雙方提供舉證責任來做攻防"},{"start":3061.537,"end":3062.979,"text":"委員會提供意見給法官"},{"start":3079.07,"end":3079.39,"text":"稅務行政訴訟審理法及納保法"},{"start":3098.629,"end":3103.231,"text":"實體法規定不妥適應該回歸到去修正實體法就像納保法的21條其實一直都讓任何人都覺得說那個已經變成一個句文了虛文了是沒有意義的那不如去修納保法的相關的規定那再來就是"},{"start":3125.762,"end":3148.249,"text":"稅審法其實它有擴大計判力的範圍尤其像18條第5項的部分當事人於行政法院實體判決後不得基於第二項駁回公防或防禦方法令提起同一個課稅案件的一腳稅款那它把它擴張到其他的部分而且第二項單書規定範圍非常的模糊所以對人民的權益影響非常的大"},{"start":3148.829,"end":3175.822,"text":"那31條第3項規定說納稅藝人因故意或重大過失而未於事實審研辭辯論終結前就足以稅額減少的事由提出主張者不得於判決確定後基於事由來提起但是事實上坦白講這個故意或重大過失的判斷有一個裁量的空間納稅人有可能是因為他程序是不熟悉的而忽略這個部分那所以"},{"start":3176.542,"end":3193.711,"text":"在稅這塊真的是一個很專業的一個訴訟會有導致不公平的情況之下所以會有不公平的情形所以我們會認為說採用這種絕對的總額主義可能造成人民的傷害所以會建議將第二項及第三項予以刪除"},{"start":3195.652,"end":3197.815,"text":"退計課稅造成人民的惡度傷害,尤其是第26條的第3項第2款,其實事實上在立法理由有提及,但是我們在法條裡面並沒有把它寫進去,所以我們會認為說"},{"start":3214.855,"end":3239.826,"text":"其實事實上該範圍得以主管機關公開之行業或同業利潤統計資料為基準但是事實上目前除財政部外並沒有其他的主管機關會公佈同業利潤的標準會避免法院引用進行引用同業利潤標準為推計所以違反立法目的因為立法的用意寫得很清楚所以我們會建議說是不是把說明欄示二後段的文字"},{"start":3240.586,"end":3240.626,"text":"委員會公聽會議"},{"start":3258.243,"end":3258.443,"text":"主席"},{"start":3289.448,"end":3291.397,"text":"謝謝蔡主任委員 接下來有請黃委員國倉發言"},{"start":3304.845,"end":3321.102,"text":"非常感謝今天到場所有的學術專家還有律師、會計師們我知道大家平常都是大忙人願意接受立法院的邀請針對稅務事件審理法的草案提出寶貴的見解先表示個人誠摯的謝意"},{"start":3322.703,"end":3324.024,"text":"今天針對稅審法召開公聽會在司法院急急忙忙提出稅審法的時候"},{"start":3345.556,"end":3362.467,"text":"我為什麼會要求在立法院召開公聽會因為2017年的時候我們在財政委員會通過了納稅者權利保護法那保法當初針對納稅者權利的保護事實上有高舉非常多的理想"},{"start":3363.147,"end":3377.582,"text":"但是7年過去了過去的這7年是不是真的有實現當初納保法所實現的理想也就是說一般的人民跟掌握公權力的國家機器在所謂的稅務高權行為這樣子的一個訴訟脈絡當中"},{"start":3381.866,"end":3403.419,"text":"我們納稅者權力保護有沒有辦法矯正雙方當事人在訴訟上面本質上所存在的不公平以及不平等那導致了在實務上面產生了非常多讓人很難過的結果也正是因為這個樣子這一次他們在推動所謂的稅審法的時候"},{"start":3405.14,"end":3418.084,"text":"我對於司法院：到今天還不願意公開委員會審議討論的紀錄我老實說我是沒有辦法理解法律人在討論法條尤其是我們專業的司法院為什麼"},{"start":3424.846,"end":3440.375,"text":"針對有關於稅審法的規定委員會審議討論的紀錄他到底是怎麼伸出這樣子的條文這個條文到底要怎麼解釋在討論的過程當中為什麼有必要把它列成是秘密"},{"start":3441.595,"end":3461.426,"text":"這個對於接下來很多條文的解釋可能都會產生具體的影響或許為了要補足這邊不夠的部分未來司法院在主條解釋的時候恐怕對於每個條文到底要怎麼解釋必須要先想好"},{"start":3463.554,"end":3481.327,"text":"當然有很多學者專家跟我在第一次針對這件事情提出質詢的時候也提出相同的看法也就是說在稅務案件當中在一定的前提條件下可與當事人協力義務這件事情本身沒有什麼太大的問題"},{"start":3482.348,"end":3506.733,"text":"但問題是說當你跟排除不自證己罪兩者的原則相衝突的時候這個時候要怎麼調和就成為一個重要的問題那這一次在稅審法裡面不僅僅在12條可以當成寫例如在14條它進一步的去排除不自證己罪的原則到第15條甚至連行政訴訟法拒絕證言的規定"},{"start":3508.113,"end":3535.83,"text":"全部都把它排除掉了這樣子的侵入性是不是有必要性會不會太強這個是第一個抽象的問題可能今天也要聆聽許多學者專家寶貴的意見但是更進一步的是什麼更進一步的事情所謂排除不自認己罪這樣子的一個原則如果適用在租稅債務那適用在租稅處罰也有相同餘地的適用嗎"},{"start":3537.81,"end":3562.957,"text":"這個是我之前在質詢的時候我一直在請教我們司法院的因為在法條的文字上不管是14條還是15條我看不出來他有要排除租稅處罰的意圖但現實上什麼現實上我們的最高行政法院在好幾個判決當中我事實上只如列出了其中一個當作代表就很清楚的講租稅裁罰的事件是國家刑事處罰高權的結果"},{"start":3564.858,"end":3584.274,"text":"跟科稅平等無關而與刑事法類似當事人並沒有協定義務或以責任以自證己作或自證無違規事實而且有無罪推定原則的適用等等因此在這個法律萬一就這樣通過了以後我們要面臨的第一個問題是說"},{"start":3586.653,"end":3601.84,"text":"我們剛剛所講到的不管是14條還是15條的規定是只有適用在租稅債務還是租稅處罰也有一併的適用當中這個會牽涉到非常具體未來在案件當中進行審判的時候這個絕對會影響到最後訴訟的勝敗"},{"start":3604.941,"end":3629.726,"text":"也會影響到所有納稅人的權益、非常關係的事項我們的司法院在制定這個法條的時候到底有沒有這個意圖要去排除租稅處罰還是租稅處罰也包括在裡面老實說從司法院目前所提出來的所有的資料我完全是看不出來因此租稅債務跟租稅處罰到目前為止在最高行政法院"},{"start":3630.606,"end":3646.055,"text":"我所看到的判決比較穩定的就兩者之間的本質做了一些區別但是在稅政法裡面我完全沒有看到說在稅政法裡面對這兩個進行區別對待明文的法律依據明文的法律依據"},{"start":3647.015,"end":3666.389,"text":"到時候接下來實際案件在試用的時候會不會對於當事人或者是我們一般的納稅義務人產生過度的侵害我相信這個是在這個法條當中絕對沒有辦法去迴避一個重中之重"},{"start":3668.911,"end":3683.363,"text":"沒有辦法迴避一個重中之重的問題最後一個也是今天我看到很多學術專家我也非常感謝很多學術專家來竟然還提供了書面資料真的非常的認真非常的感謝大家"},{"start":3684.344,"end":3711.167,"text":"大家有提到的是說你找稅審官過來協助法官當然我可以理解可能法官在整個法學教育養成的過程當中未必對於所謂稅務的案件或是稅額的計算有像一般在唸財稅專科的這樣專業背景的人有相同的專業所以找稅審官來幫忙但問題是說你找稅審官來幫忙如果是從行政機關借調的話"},{"start":3712.788,"end":3734.703,"text":"那今天我很感謝那個有一位不好意思我看一下因為牽涉到人家的名字我也覺得要慎重一點汪漢琴 汪廷長他所提出來的書面報告我代讀了以後他是以那個時候智慧財產法院裡面的技術審查官當作例子從那邊"},{"start":3737.204,"end":3748.672,"text":"實際上面實踐的結果來看對於所謂稅審官的設置在實際案件上面會產生的影響那如果說啊未來是從公部門借調的話那"},{"start":3750.29,"end":3779.793,"text":"以前技術審查官從智慧財產局借調是由智慧財產局來加以考評這個事情可能等一下最後再請我們的司法院具體的回覆一下因為你如果說是從行政機關借調的是由行政機關負責考評的話那可能在稅審官的脈絡當中大家所擔心官官相互的現象可能會更強烈"},{"start":3780.768,"end":3804.615,"text":"那現在有關於在智慧財產權法院裡面那一邊汪庭長所指責這樣一個重要事務上面的運作那未來在你們所設想上面的稅審官是不是會產生相同的運作可能最後也必須要請我們司法院具體回覆一下"},{"start":3805.612,"end":3814.221,"text":"那第18條的規定,剛剛也有學者指出來第18條的規定會不會讓稅審法接下來在所謂訴訟標的的認定上或是訴訟標的對於後訴訟所產生計判力客觀範圍、遮斷效的範圍上面產生一個過強烈"},{"start":3828.888,"end":3849.357,"text":"的效果那這個可能也是要請司法院特別予以斟酌特別是在18條第二項抬除於時提出供給防禦方法駁回的例外規定那我當然可以看得出來這個稅審法可能是從民事訴訟法相關有關於於時提出供給防禦方法"},{"start":3850.481,"end":3866.248,"text":"司權校的例外規定 把它列出來但是我相信 我們的司法院副秘書長自己也是民事訴訟法的專家這個條文在民事訴訟的脈絡當中解釋所造成的困難所造成的爭論"},{"start":3867.569,"end":3883.381,"text":"在稅審法這次有沒有要解決還是打算把民事訴訟那邊所產生的困難跟爭論原封不動的 首諾罵罵直接到稅審法裡面以後繼續會產生相同的爭論那我就講一個最簡單的例子 你說"},{"start":3885.509,"end":3905.217,"text":"這個攻擊防禦方法的提出不慎言之訴訟這個時候如果與此提出的時候也不用駁回那在這裡所謂的不慎言之訴訟請問你們所採取的標準是什麼是絕對言之還是相對言之是絕對言之還是相對言之那可能一般非法律系的人聽不懂但我相信副秘書長絕對聽得"},{"start":3907.098,"end":3929.855,"text":"絕對聽得懂 什麼叫絕對顏制 什麼叫相對顏制在明日訴訟法那邊就已經吵翻天了你把相同有爭議的文字搬到這個地方來我在你們立法理由裡面我還是沒有看到你打算用絕對顏制還是用相對顏制那不管你用絕對顏制還是用相對顏制接下來連接的到計判立客觀範圍所產生這段效的範圍"},{"start":3931.076,"end":3955.296,"text":"兩者之間的因果關係是什麼我的意思是說如果是用不慎言之訴訟當作例外的理由來開放或者是說因此而被駁回的話那這個時候對於紀判例的客觀範圍所產生遮斷效的範圍兩者之間所存在的互動關係是什麼那這個恐怕也是司法院在整個立法的說明當中必須要予以補強的否則我可以預期"},{"start":3956.317,"end":3958.198,"text":"謝謝黃委員接下來有請陳清秀陳教授"},{"start":3995.171,"end":4017.068,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位學者專家 各位先進 大家早上好 早安很榮幸有這個機會來參加這個稅務事件審理法的這個公聽會基本上我們知道我們稅務事件是相對起來也算相當的複雜那法令都如牛馬光財政部的"},{"start":4017.768,"end":4019.349,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":4040.484,"end":4063.135,"text":"有必須要有受過稅法專業訓練的法官才可以擔任稅務案件的裁判這個提升了我們的稅務案件人民的勝訴比例過去還沒有納保法實行之前我們的法官可能對稅法還不是那麼的清楚理解所以因此這個人民勝訴比例加上和解的比例大概佔15%"},{"start":4064.776,"end":4065.697,"text":"稅務事件審理法 特別針對稅務欄案件"},{"start":4093.334,"end":4093.554,"text":"財稅案件財務法院法規範"},{"start":4112.381,"end":4112.561,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4134.116,"end":4134.456,"text":"處分：自行撤銷：變更"},{"start":4164.416,"end":4179.366,"text":"全憲最後應該要由司法機關來擔任不是行政機關專屬的全憲所以因此我這邊引用的德國、立法律以及歐盟法院的裁判"},{"start":4180.947,"end":4181.067,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4199.377,"end":4200.278,"text":"司法機關最後決定"},{"start":4214.975,"end":4226.809,"text":"歐洲法院 歐洲的普遍的做法 也是德國的做法日本也是這樣 美國也這樣只有我們台灣啊 是處在一個比較落後國家的一個法治的這樣一個現象過去我們的財萬件處理辦法"},{"start":4230.894,"end":4255.871,"text":"明文規定 國稅局沒有處罰人民的權限只有法院才有處罰人民權限這是參考英美的法制 也參考日本的立法例也就是說只有法院才能夠處罰人民才能夠決定處罰金額多少可是自從我們的稅金計生法在60幾年還是70年修正的時候居然把行政法院的處罰權限拿掉了變成是國稅局行政機關的一個"},{"start":4257.332,"end":4278.411,"text":"獨佔的權限這個是明顯違憲的一個情況至少不符合國際的潮流世界各國沒有這樣的立法例所以因此我們建議這個部分應該要好好再修正一下第二個部分關於協力義務的部分我想協力義務的部分在本稅為了要公平課稅所以有協力義務可是在處罰部分的話"},{"start":4280.573,"end":4307.664,"text":"處罰的話應該是無罪推定原則無責任推定原則這個德國聯邦憲法法案過去有判決歐洲法院也有判決說這個處罰對人民的一個行政處罰要準用刑事訴訟法的規定來處理這也就是我們過去裁判件處理辦法我們的老祖宗用裁判件處理辦法他就明文規定處罰的審理程序準用刑事訴訟法"},{"start":4308.684,"end":4329.081,"text":"我們過去的道路交通管理處罰條例 也規定道路違規的處罰 法官 交通法庭 也是準用刑事使用法來處理換句話說 我們的勞組中 比較保障人權我們現在的法令規範 人權保障反而落後 這個表示我們人權保障是在退步當中"},{"start":4329.801,"end":4352.89,"text":"不是在進步喔雖然我們法制看起來好像蓬勃發展但是人權保障的觀念居然在弱化這個我們是建議啊應該要分開來處理所以人民應該有不知正己罪的憲法保障的基本人權應該無罪推定原則所以因此有保持真墨權利沒有寫立語這個在德國的租稅通則呢是有明文規定"},{"start":4353.49,"end":4353.69,"text":"稅務事件"},{"start":4371.852,"end":4394.976,"text":"本稅處分的訴訟跟法案處分的訴訟要分別審理裁判由法官、行政法院分別審理裁判有關處罰處分的訴訟審理及裁判準用刑事法規定回歸到我們早年的裁判件處理辦法回歸到早年的道路交通管理處罰條例準用刑事法這個也是德國法的標準也是歐洲法院的標準"},{"start":4395.616,"end":4413.444,"text":"這個歐洲法院的標準那本法有關當事人協力義務規定在處罰處分的程序不適用之這個代表一種人權保障我們為什麼會現在這一次的草案為什麼會在處罰程序要刻意他協力義務主要就是因為我們現在為了"},{"start":4414.645,"end":4417.73,"text":"本稅的補稅處分與處罰處分合併辦理有一個法官合併辦理他怎麼切割說前面本稅有協力物後面處罰沒有協力物他很難辦"},{"start":4430.867,"end":4458.553,"text":"因若糾結 便宜刑事結果 人權保障就弱化了所以我還建議說 我們可以考慮分別審理 分別裁判適用不同的法律的一個遊戲規則 證據法則一個是無罪推定原則 無責任推定原則是一個高度的證明 才可以處罰人民一個是推計課稅 違反協定物就可以推計課稅 它是降低證明程度的另外"},{"start":4462.201,"end":4476.142,"text":"執言提出供給防疫方法的部分我個人認為這個利益良好但是實際上有它的困難因為我們老百姓我們包括律師在內國家考試只是選考設法如果你不考設法"},{"start":4476.842,"end":4493.386,"text":"對稅法都不太了解所以常常很多有利當事人的法令規範這個權利都不知道主張結果你說你晚一點提出就說你這個遲延提出我給你程序駁回這個真的是情何以堪所以我是建議應該先說當事人故意違反誠實信用原則故意遲延提出這種惡性重大的我們讓他發生失權效果"},{"start":4500.848,"end":4508.371,"text":"其他的不應該啊 剝奪人民提出救濟權利如果在訴訟上都求恕無門恐怕只能在立法院這邊舉辦陳情協調會才有辦法解決紛爭我們希望我們人民的紛爭是在整個的訴訟程序可以圓滿解決我們德國的法治非常發達德國的律師普遍都有稅法的專業素養如果以巴伐利亞邦來講他國家考試是必考稅法科目"},{"start":4529.719,"end":4543.193,"text":"所以每個律師對稅法都很了解所以你這個條文用在德國沒有問題可是用在我們台灣啊就會本土化的話就會水土不服因為我們的律師並沒有那麼的對稅法那麼熟悉啊那這樣的話就會讓他剝奪他的一個"},{"start":4546.377,"end":4560.897,"text":"事後研究發現有一些有利的事證 有利的資料 有利的法律觀點 結果都不能主張阿這個本來是國稅局跟法院應該是要明察秋毫 要本於職權認識用法 怎麼把這個責任推給當事人呢 結果我覺得這樣很不公平"},{"start":4561.317,"end":4582.019,"text":"很不公平所以我們建議啊是不是應該修改一下剛剛那個計判役擴張的問題其實也有類似的情況還有就是律師的強制代理啊我是建議啊如果金額只有五六十萬現在就要強制律師代理我們律師會可能收費一個案子就給他收十萬塊啊一審收十萬二審就收二十萬官司還沒打就已經就要首費不治啊所以我是建議啊"},{"start":4582.58,"end":4607.694,"text":"是不是強制律師代理的金額可以提高一點比如說一千萬還是多少錢那小額的話還是不要強制律師代理不然的話反而會妨礙到人民行使訴訟權利那最後我就有一個最高行政法院的退休法官尹文周法官他有一些意見沒辦法來表達所以我把他再附錄敬請大家參考一下這個第七頁以上請多指教 謝謝"},{"start":4610.868,"end":4615.124,"text":"好 謝謝陳教授接下來請蔡草安主任委員"},{"start":4633.201,"end":4652.298,"text":"主席還有各位在場的各位學者專家各位先進大家好那個針對這個這次的那個納稅行政審理法的草案表示自己個人的意見那其實這次的這個稅務事件審理法其實是通過蠻長的時間的討論"},{"start":4655.14,"end":4670.678,"text":"對於這個長久以來我們的稅務事件有別於其他的那個行政的事件本身能夠有一個個別性的立法其實首先應該表示肯定因為對於這個稅務事件它的特殊性"},{"start":4670.998,"end":4671.599,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":4688.496,"end":4690.598,"text":"其中這個草案針對若干長久以來的一些爭議 特別是針對總和主義 還有一些相關的行政法院法官在整個審理上的權限當中 都有做滿充分的保障 這也是值得來提出的"},{"start":4708.69,"end":4709.711,"text":"稅務事件審理法草案"},{"start":4733.673,"end":4758.247,"text":"規範 乃至說應該怎麼去做解釋總是應該要以納稅人權利保護法作為整個解釋的一個依歸也就是說納稅人權利保護法作為保障納稅人權利的這件事情本身它應該永遠是一個基本法而這個稅務事件審理法本身應該是基於審理的必要來去補充這個所謂納保法所謂規定的這個部分"},{"start":4759.027,"end":4783.904,"text":"在納保法作為前置解釋的基礎下我對稅務事件審理法本身有幾點的意見先進來做參考第一個就是說我想在納保法的規範下違反協力義務本身協力義務當然是在整個稅務案件當中非常重要的納稅人的誠實義務"},{"start":4786.707,"end":4800.34,"text":"違反協議本身的法律效果不利益不能大於進到納稅移民的舉證責任這方面也就是說在整個協議的違反與舉證責任的違禁中間"},{"start":4804.404,"end":4833.095,"text":"協力義務本身的違反不應該大於它大於進到這個舉證責任那在這個基礎上如果違反協力義務本身最多應該是加以推計這也是納保法的精神而不應該就產生所謂的處罰的效果那如果說以這樣的來看其實我們在這個第12條這個地方以及14條這個地方有關強制處分這些規定這可能就值得有再做考量的這個必要了"},{"start":4833.775,"end":4858.715,"text":"那至於說推計這方面當然本來就是在這個納把法裡面所認同的這個部分當然就是要去以這個當事人的寫立物為依歸另外在同樣在這個草案第12條的第3項這個地方裡面有提到說這個有關於納稅義務人本身他的代表人還有他的僱用人還有一個叫從業人員基本上都有跟著提出的義務"},{"start":4860.195,"end":4884.302,"text":"這個從業人員這四個字我也覺得應該做一個比較清楚的界定因為律師是不是這一條所指的從業人員我想應該是顯然不應該是可能要加以排除因為律師受到當事人的委託那基本上他盡到的應該有保密的義務還有他的一個當事人的保密特權如果說當事人的這個律師也會是在這個被強制提出這個資訊的這個"},{"start":4886.662,"end":4888.063,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4913.61,"end":4943.03,"text":"至少也應該要有一個所謂的那個金額上限的限制要不然的話可能會分次處罰的這件事情會讓這個當事人承受一個不可預測的一個不利益那另外提到這個所謂的洗禮義務事實上剛剛也有先進陳老師有特別提到在跟這個不自證己罪這方面的關聯性其實如果我們再細看這個德國的這個規範的一個比較法的基礎是不是也以這個非當事人"},{"start":4943.57,"end":4947.973,"text":"作為基礎而不在當事人的適用範圍之內"},{"start":4963.425,"end":4987.352,"text":"最後我也認同范老師所提到的推計課稅應該還是要明白的寫清楚但是我想其實原本法條應該也沒有不同的意思應該說它應該要以違反協力義務作為它的前提我想這本來就是推計課稅一直以來在納保法的規範精神上一直所認同的"},{"start":4988.492,"end":5005.067,"text":"最後是有關於稅審官的部分我個人的意見是其實我是蠻認同稅務案件在整個稅務法庭當中能夠有配置稅審官對於法院也好對於律師來去對於稅務案件的審理本身能夠有助於審理的促進但是我也認同說對稅審官他的考評"},{"start":5014.034,"end":5042.323,"text":"事實上應該要有一個比較清晰的一個規定特別是應該要由司法院這邊來定出它的考評特別是它的考期各方面而不應該是說由這個只是一個借調的安排仍然由這個稅務機關來去做考評那最重要的可能也要再加上說稅審官如果他借調過來之前曾經有辦理的案件也應該有清楚的迴避的規定我想這可能也是重要的那以上做這幾點的一個"},{"start":5044.003,"end":5044.904,"text":"有請汪漢清 汪庭長"},{"start":5063.379,"end":5089.887,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有在場的各位先進我是實務的工作者所以我的說明的一些經驗的分享大概都是從實務的方面來跟各位做報告剛剛尤其黃委員特別點名到了制裁商業法院在處理專業案件的時候有關於計審官的協助"},{"start":5091.028,"end":5118.067,"text":"到底是什麼樣的情況所以我今天主要分幾個部分想跟各位報告技術審查官在我們法院裡面的處理情形首先我今天要跟各位報告的大綱主要是三個點第一個是專業協助在訴訟的必要性第二個是技術審查官的管理尤其剛剛很多先進都提到"},{"start":5119.096,"end":5140.886,"text":"技術審查官的管理如果是由原單位來管理的話那麼他是不是更會官官相護第三個部分我要提到有關於技術審查官的立場的質疑我想這三個是我能夠從實務上面有關於技術審查官在制裁法院目前運作的狀況來跟各位做一個分享"},{"start":5142.927,"end":5145.928,"text":"稅務訴訟是一個非常專業的案件同樣的智慧財產權訴訟也是非常專業的訴訟尤其是專利各位想想看我們常常有一句俗話說360行"},{"start":5173.086,"end":5175.709,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會"},{"start":5199.291,"end":5224.626,"text":"專業的人士來協助法官在判斷的正確性上面是非常困難的所以我們在考量是不是要讓專業的人士來協助法院的時候首先要考量的是那這樣的一個專業性的協助是不是有它的必要那這個專業技術是不是它的困難度以及在訴訟的進行上面是不是能夠增加它的效率以及它判斷的技術性尤其是很多專業的領域"},{"start":5226.067,"end":5226.327,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5246.187,"end":5248.449,"text":"法院內部及法院外部專業人士的協助"},{"start":5265.043,"end":5292.649,"text":"以及法院設置專業的幕僚協助這三個我的看法是並行不悖的並沒有非零和的狀況就是說只能有外部的專家而不能夠有內部的專家這樣做的目的是要讓內外的專家在法庭的攻防裡面讓真理越辯越明所以如果能夠任何提升法院判決正確性的機制存在的話我個人認為"},{"start":5293.789,"end":5316.036,"text":"在保障人民權益都是有必須要考量的價值所以經營以上的考量我來跟各位分享一下我們在技術審查官的管理沒有錯技術審查官目前我們是大部分是跟智慧局借調的為什麼要用借調首先我必須跟各位講跟各位報告的就是"},{"start":5317.287,"end":5336.068,"text":"在智慧財產尤其今天我們如果說要去台積電挖一個專業的工程師來法院協助法院各位想想看那個難度我們法院怎麼可能去支付這樣的一個薪資讓一個這麼有專業知識的人能夠到法院來協助法官"},{"start":5337.744,"end":5353.8,"text":"各行各業的人我們要去抓各行各業多少人來協助法院而專利訴訟裡面有一個所謂的叫做所屬技術領域具有通常知識者這樣一個標準我們不需要去抓到各行各業的佼佼者我們也騙不起"},{"start":5354.701,"end":5354.861,"text":"主席"},{"start":5374.258,"end":5374.378,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5391.192,"end":5392.052,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5414.597,"end":5415.197,"text":"司法及法制委員"},{"start":5439.147,"end":5439.407,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5470.943,"end":5494.037,"text":"提供的資料為了吸引借調人員能夠在這個地方願意過來我們在新資上面會特別有所謂的專業家級司法專業家級這部分還是有一些差距的這樣做的主要目的是希望他在法院期間能夠利用他的專業知識來協助法院技術審查官的功能"},{"start":5494.918,"end":5495.238,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5517.443,"end":5517.823,"text":"主席"},{"start":5533.892,"end":5561.152,"text":"當一個案子來的時候主任計審官他會委派專業知識相近於這個本案的這個技術審判官協助法官理解雙方當事人在法庭所爭執的內容我還是再次強調一點就是並不妨礙雙方當事人攜帶各自的專家你可以找這個領域裡面頂尖的專家呢到這個法院來做公訪那我記得有一個案子是化學案子連開三天雙方找了美國台灣"},{"start":5562.133,"end":5562.153,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5578.641,"end":5598.381,"text":"法官可以決定不採,那我也常常這麼做,他所做的報告我不贊同,那我是按照我自己的認知、我的專業以及我在法庭上所聽到的專家、證人的證詞,我個人認為採像、採如何的判斷是比較合理的,這是常見的那從公部門界調呢,會不會官官相互,我想從這個地方各位可以看到,剛剛這個"},{"start":5600.783,"end":5600.923,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5630.963,"end":5631.343,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5650.474,"end":5650.635,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5666.169,"end":5681.361,"text":"被法院撤銷的比例高達60%的話那麼這個行政機關應該都沒有在依法行政這個國家應該是不穩定的所以我還是要最終的強調一點就是我們是希望透過任何機制協助法院理解真相謝謝好 謝謝王庭長接下來請陳士陽顧問發言"},{"start":5698.705,"end":5725.356,"text":"大家好 我是中澳民國會議事公會的顧問那現在首先談這個稅務審查官那談稅務審查官之前我們可以先瞭解一下納保官他的實施情況如何納保官每一個當然都是從稅務員裡頭提升過來的當初在設置納保官的時候包括我幾乎人人認為納保官一定是站在國稅局的立場事實上實施多年以來"},{"start":5726.856,"end":5753.947,"text":"顯然不是尤其我也是財政部納稅者權益諮詢委員諮詢會的委員每一次諮詢會的開會都會檢查各地區納保官的工作績效檢查什麼內他就服務的案件多少件滿意度怎麼樣有沒有人提起行政救濟那如果被提起行政救濟的話就是代表納保官的服務不好沒有替老百姓想到最好的法律能夠來適用老百姓所以呢"},{"start":5754.747,"end":5771.489,"text":"根據這個經驗我是認為如何績效評估納保官的會影響納保官的服務態度當然納保官如果他的服務他的績效是說你替國家課了多少增收了多少稅金的話納保官當然跟著"},{"start":5772.389,"end":5801.849,"text":"多課二歲間的路線去走那現在目前的財政部績效顯然不是這樣子所以我是認為這個稅務審查官的審查機制要建立一個如何幫助法院做一個更好的裁判那剛剛有提到如果稅務審查官他提出來的報告也是會被原告來攻擊的那如果稅務審查官他做出來的報告他的見解被法院法官不接受那法官就給他烤雞就來打"},{"start":5802.429,"end":5803.411,"text":"各種面面都要聚到"},{"start":5815.153,"end":5831.886,"text":"被告國稅局所以我認為整個稅務審查官他的績效衡量制度非常重要如果績效衡量制度對的話我們是十分贊成有稅務審查官的第一個會議公會是很贊成的第二個對於有關協力義務舉證責任萬年稅攤的事情當然我們還是希望納保法繼續維持"},{"start":5843.695,"end":5844.075,"text":"法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":5862.782,"end":5869.467,"text":"他的優先適用的位階顯然大於僅僅是適用兩個字當然我們會主張這個會連帶的就會影響到納保法第10條第11條 第21條包括這個稅源機關應該主動幫助納稅者獲得最適切的服務還有這個稅源機關負有舉證責任還有萬年稅單的解決第三點"},{"start":5892.245,"end":5910.639,"text":"就是這個稅務事件審理法的草案總說明它是我們是第7條的末段我們希望是增加但經行政法案許可會計師及稅務員亦得為訴訟代理人因為這才是第7條的完整的文議因為"},{"start":5913.294,"end":5939.584,"text":"如果稅務員不能夠當訴訟代理人的話國家必須編列預算請律師或會議士來打替國家打稅務官司這個一定要花很多錢事實上立法院議士仍然維持會計士及稅務員經行政法案許可仍然得為訴訟代理人那最後我附帶一題了一般大家認為總額主義好像不錯事實上總額主義它也有附帶的不利益發生在什麼情況下如果說一個"},{"start":5940.748,"end":5941.008,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5957.268,"end":5971.484,"text":"調整項目那正常如果是以詐欺逃脫稅間無關的調整項目他的合格期限是5年可是因為這一次的合格金額裡頭有一部分是以詐欺逃脫稅間的金額那這個合格期限是7年沒話講"},{"start":5973.431,"end":5994.305,"text":"總和主義下就會把無詐數逃落稅間不是無詐數憑證不合或是被調整的進了全部合格期間全部變為7年這是總和主義的壞處我們希望這一次能夠考量這一點因為總和主義大家都認為好處事實上它是年代的壞處好 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝陳顧問接下來我們有請"},{"start":6002.497,"end":6003.539,"text":"陳衍任 陳教授"},{"start":6010.444,"end":6033.882,"text":"主席各位先進 大家好接下來的報告我們請就今天我們會裡面提到的四個問題我們來做回答首先第一個部分我們談到是說在稅務的行政事件審理法當中要解決的問題原則上在目前現行制度底下大致上有幾個問題首先第一個是剛剛各位先進都有提到有關萬年稅單的問題"},{"start":6036.624,"end":6061.854,"text":"在早期我們實務上一般在法院撤銷稅單的時候原則上都只有撤到這個複查決定的部分所以在現行的這個稅審法當中他為了要去調整這件事情所以他就針對說在這個未來的撤銷的標的是以課稅處分為他的主要的標的那這也是配合我們稅政計政法的22條的實效不完成的這個規定的一個配套的一個措施"},{"start":6062.654,"end":6064.155,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":6081.63,"end":6082.37,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":6101.349,"end":6128.101,"text":"在現行的這個實務上的這個經常我們在等於說實務上法院撤銷決定的時候經常做這個撤令處撤銷發回再另為決定那會導致說整個訴訟程序相對是比較不經濟那因此在我們稅審法當中的做法是希望讓法院有一個機會可以來做自為決定自為推計那此外針對罰還有裁量處分的情形他可以做一個減免處罰所以是讓整個程序相對比較經濟"},{"start":6129.541,"end":6145.159,"text":"此外,有時候在當事人如果有待於協力的情形,我們透過訴訟程序去強化協力義務及到場的義務,這待會後面會去補充。最後一個是有關於在實務上有時候法院會受限於他的一些效能的"},{"start":6145.319,"end":6146.26,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法"},{"start":6164.918,"end":6187.336,"text":"最主要談的是在稅審法當中的協力物的規定本身會不會有過度侵犯人權保障有沒有違反不是政級罪的問題確實在目前的實務上的一些現狀相關的事證其實是由當事人在管理支配的居多所以蠻多的一些事證其實是所謂偏在當事人這一方"},{"start":6188.397,"end":6210.188,"text":"我們說原則上在整個稅捐計增過程當中應該是由稅局去依職權調查但是職權調查的前提必須是建立在納稅人有進到他的協力物為他的一個基礎只有在例外的情況之下在職權調查有了局限性或者當事人無法進到協力物的時候我們才會採取推計課稅的方式"},{"start":6210.928,"end":6236.548,"text":"但是你會發現實務上確實有一些個案當中當事人他直接就放棄他的這個協力物的一個旅行那有這種取巧心態來拒絕提出那好直接就進到這個推計課稅這一塊那這個理由是因為說在實務上目前的推計課稅的一些規定像我們的這個擴大書審的這個存益率或者像同業利潤標準像所得標準呢他都有明顯的偏離這個實情就偏離行情的這個情形"},{"start":6239.07,"end":6239.69,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":6258.982,"end":6262.565,"text":"《稅審法》中針對《行政訴訟法》第125條的第二項因為訴訟法的規定有提到雙方當事人都有訴訟上的協力義務他把這個協力義務做更加強化包括陳述、提出、到場"},{"start":6279.561,"end":6304.211,"text":"陳述義務的部分最主要是針對當事人他有一個陳述的義務違反陳述義務的效果最多就只是證據評價上的不利益他並沒有額外的一些處罰等等的在提出義務的部分 事證的提出包括當事人包括當事人的代表人 他的職員等等也包括在境外 有些跨境交易的時候受託的第三人 比如受託的機構等等的"},{"start":6307.152,"end":6334.204,"text":"對他的要求本身在當事人跟代表人的部分是採取強制處分在第三人的話因為我們對境外無法透過強制處分所以我們就透過罰款的方式去處理在到場義務的部分是對當事人他有特別是講說在必要的時候有那個必要的情況才會請當事人到場來說明像有些當事人他可能沒有請這個律師他可能沒有請律師或會計師沒有委任代理人的情形"},{"start":6335.425,"end":6349.96,"text":"確實有當事人來說明的這個必要會透過法環做一個擔保這是在現行的稅審法當中的一個規定接著就會引起一個討論是說我們的稅審法14條有提到不得因恐形式訴追而拒絕協力"},{"start":6351.061,"end":6368.892,"text":"因為實務上有時候會涉及到說可能當事人會有一些案件的他會主張說他有這個這個協力因為他有些刑案可能跟偽造文書跟逃漏稅有關的那他可不可以這個這個因為擔心這個刑事訴罪而拒絕履行協力"},{"start":6370.713,"end":6389.472,"text":"我們的看法是認為在稅務的領域本身原則上還是有這個協力物的一個旅行那不知正起罪必須要跟協力物去做一個調和不然的話你其實反而會讓這個城市納稅人反而會更加的不利在這樣的情形"},{"start":6390.112,"end":6391.053,"text":"公聽會委員：完整會議公聽會委員：完整會議"},{"start":6411.369,"end":6437.522,"text":"不過在德國的處罰領域原則上整個程序還是採取刑事訴訟相關的程序去進行此外在逃入稅的處罰上是以重大過失才有處罰所以你可以講說在德國的稅局在稅捐處罰的個案當中相對是比較有機會可以拿到相關的一些事證那它的處罰的實際相對範圍是比較少的"},{"start":6440.083,"end":6450.928,"text":"相較於我們台灣目前的做法,我們的稅捐處罰還是跑一般的行政程序此外故意過失都可以加以裁罰所以總體來講,德國的處罰範圍相對是比較限縮在台灣的處罰範圍相對比較擴張但是在擴張的場合之下,稅局相對調查的手段是比較侷限的"},{"start":6463.803,"end":6466.685,"text":"在稅審法當中針對不知政己罪除外可以強化協議的規定在稅捐處罰的個案當中"},{"start":6481.456,"end":6482.637,"text":"本稅與處罰則高於本稅"},{"start":6504.426,"end":6504.727,"text":"在處罰的個案當中"},{"start":6518.632,"end":6524.155,"text":"行政訴訟的整個立法精神除了當事人的人權之外還包括了整個公義的考量所以整個稅權公平還是一個必須要去維持的一塊"},{"start":6538.382,"end":6562.379,"text":"那怎麼去監督稅審官的這一塊呢?我們說稅審官的優點,他當然剛剛有提到說他可以輔助審判,那常設法官跟他的對話相對是比較便利。那此外呢,我們去強調的是說,他相對於你在個案當中去請律師或者會計師,他的利益衝突確實是比較小。這就很像是說我們一般的調解委員,我們不會去兼任這個律師跟會計師一樣,他必須有一定的分界。"},{"start":6563.14,"end":6587.801,"text":"那怎麼去確保它的中立性呢?我們說法官還是負最終的責任此外在考機上我們會建議說是說至少讓司法院可以來參與這個考機跟制裁局看是要用比例的方式來分配不應該完全的排除司法院的這個考機這一塊那給稅審官長期保障跟選轉門的條款那可以維持它這個中立性"},{"start":6588.722,"end":6594.905,"text":"稅審法與納保法稅審法不是取代納保法只是補充納保法的不足有澄清納保法當中的缺失對納保法當中的模糊地方作具體規定對納保法當中的寫地物規範作更明確規定"},{"start":6616.014,"end":6635.647,"text":"《納保法》基本上是針對《實體法》及《程序法》的規範《稅審法》只是單純就訴訟的審理所以這兩個其實並沒有衝突的問題在《稅審法》的第3條裡面它就有提到說我是行政訴訟法及其他法律特別法的依據這就很像是說我們大法官的憲法判決去補充抽象的憲法條文的這種位階"},{"start":6637.828,"end":6654.186,"text":"最後一個立法的建議我們認為說其實在稅審法一旦未來有機會通過的話其實納保法當中的一些規定應該要配套去刪除掉就相當於是說我們在政府資訊公開法立法了之後我們的行政程序法的資訊公開就把它刪除掉"},{"start":6656.008,"end":6674.455,"text":"《納保法》立法後,《稅捐激增法》的1-1跟12-1條規定也配套地刪除,讓大家看法條會比較一致。《稅審法》應該有一個整體的配套措施,因為它立法是一個整體的配套,像總統主義的部分,所以應該要避免割裂去做一個增刪的動作。"},{"start":6675.655,"end":6678.536,"text":"主管院部、司法院、財政部強化對於最處罰的協力義務論述以及稅審官的問題,避免誤會以上是我的說明,謝謝"},{"start":6699.327,"end":6722.88,"text":"以及陸續到場的包括有我們虎倫大學法律學院的秋成副教授以及臺灣大學法律學院的柯格中副教授以及臺北律師公會稅法委員會的王軒亞主任委員"},{"start":6724.933,"end":6741.77,"text":"還有國立中正大學法學院的聖子榮聖院長以及理律法律事務所的劉昌平合夥律師好那我們補充介紹之後呢我們接下來邀請是由黃俊傑黃教授發言請"},{"start":6753.073,"end":6779.215,"text":"主席 還有我們在座委員 還有學友專家針對稅審法大概分成三個部分來跟大家做個個人僭建的一個報告第一個是規範體系的問題第二個是草案總說明就是大院在審理這個稅審法的時候應該對行政院還有司法院有一些要求第三個是針對草案的個別條文"},{"start":6781.697,"end":6789.743,"text":"修正建議陳教授納保法與稅審法的關係在規範體系上納保法是優先適用的特別法特別法的性質並沒有因為稅審法而改變"},{"start":6804.394,"end":6806.155,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":6828.942,"end":6850.119,"text":"納保法除了基本權利的規定以外,還有實體、程序、還有權力保護的規定所以為什麼在審這個法案的時候,應該請行政院要一同來配合,來處理納保法的問題因為實體的規定,推計課稅,還有程序的協力義務,還有總額處理的規定,在納保法裡面都有規定"},{"start":6852.18,"end":6878.754,"text":"司法院規範不足規範如何不足不足是實體不足還是程序不足還是行政訴訟權力保護的核心事項我想不是單純由司法院來審這個會議的時候由司法院來做說明就足以完善這樣的法制"},{"start":6879.534,"end":6881.335,"text":"稅審法及特別法"},{"start":6906.186,"end":6906.506,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期"},{"start":6919.54,"end":6919.98,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6941.994,"end":6967.564,"text":"我們有沒有特別的立法那舉個例子來講因為這次沒有提出書面是因為目前剛好在做行政訴訟假扣押制度的一些研究那因為研討會在即我們發現就環境公益跟稅捐債權的實現的部分我不知道在座我們的立委還有我們的這個學者專家認為哪一個方面是比較重要的"},{"start":6969.497,"end":6983.652,"text":"環境公益沒有特別的行政訴訟的立法但是實務上對環境公益的以假扣要制度來講多數是拒絕的"},{"start":6984.913,"end":7007.133,"text":"所以造成環境公益在我們中委員在這邊南部真的好幾個縣市從我所居住的台南以下有很多都是非常的嚴重但是在我們行政法院對於這個主管機關要去要去呢這個進行環境公益的維護所要求的這個行政訴訟腳構壓卻是幾乎都是拒絕的"},{"start":7010.947,"end":7024.535,"text":"稅捐公寓的這個假扣押因為稅捐債權的假扣押因為有稅捐計增法還有相關法律的修正那這個稅捐又被認為是一個確認性的刑事處分所以假扣押的這個部分"},{"start":7025.759,"end":7025.919,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7044.514,"end":7051.818,"text":"立法有必要性：單獨立法是否已經針對稅審事件的特殊性：如同環境公益的特殊性：已經做完整的歸納：立法範圍：以假扣要的角度來講：行政訴訟法"},{"start":7071.109,"end":7090.461,"text":"行政訴訟法已經有存在職權調查及其他相關規範,有沒有必要在稅審法加以規定?第四,法官的功能,主要去審查稅捐行政的合法性,而不是審查妥當性"},{"start":7092.282,"end":7095.305,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":7113.422,"end":7138.676,"text":"是否會影響後續的這個部分其實稅捐最重要的一個特殊性或者被大家所斟酌的這個批評的一個特殊性就是它的推計課稅有很多是無窮止盡的那我們不要忽略了基礎事實是一定要存在如果連存不存在都有正義的時候那所謂的已證明這三個字是如何去證明已經證明"},{"start":7140.976,"end":7167.446,"text":"這是將來這個稅務增重的一個納稅者這個對國家司法的信賴度的一個非常重要的核心的部分那另外一個呢就是法官最重要做的是合法性的判斷我們不要介入過多的這個機關的這個地位所以呢在這裡面我們當然也也必須同時說比較法上面法官有適度的滑緩的這樣的一個權限但是呢我們"},{"start":7168.686,"end":7169.967,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":7195.03,"end":7219.598,"text":"要特別請立法院在審查稅審法的時候要求行政院要續明納保法在稅審法的制定施行的同時是否有規範不足或者是沒有必要做規範的情況之下我們看得出來稅審法的整體對納稅者的權利限制比較多保護比較少"},{"start":7220.558,"end":7220.998,"text":"立法院司法院長"},{"start":7241.033,"end":7257.988,"text":"將納保法的相關的個別條文列入稅審法個別條文的草案說明來形成所謂的立法的必要性特別要去說增訂之後對納保法已經實施從106年到現在它的一些可能的影響"},{"start":7260.909,"end":7281.675,"text":"我們必須要肯定司法院推動稅審法的研究不過我覺得研究時間還有投入相對應比較少應該是要請行政院配合納保法共同委託研究團隊就這兩個法律"},{"start":7285.717,"end":7307.193,"text":"實體程序基本原則及權力保護切割研究量能適當分配實際上同時兼顧納保法及稅審法各自立法目的避免衝突尤其是避免衝突避免納稅者對議題看法"},{"start":7311.676,"end":7314.118,"text":"第7條、第11條、第13條、第14條、第22條、第25條、第27條有必要做調整第7條的強制律師代理有沒有注意到經濟弱勢、無資歷權力保護者"},{"start":7334.373,"end":7352.325,"text":"以稅額不合比例的強制律師代理規定違反憲法解釋224號所以我們在推行強制律師代理有專業的考慮但是如果沒辦法強制律師代理有這樣的困難是否就放棄權力保護"},{"start":7354.086,"end":7376.077,"text":"放棄權力保護與稅審法最根本的精神是相違的有沒有必要讓法官對當事人不到場,例如13條用暗刺的處罰,這樣一個處罰可能是一個過度的決定其他的部分再提供書面資料供大院參考"},{"start":7379.781,"end":7381.604,"text":"好 謝謝黃教授接下來請吳委員 盧昭偉中線"},{"start":7389.868,"end":7411.609,"text":"謝謝主席我今天要提的東西其實上一次的巡打的時候我也有提出部分的意見那因為今天其實我看到那麼多學者來這邊嘛而且前一天憲法法庭他才就那個你自己想做出判決那所以其實稅的這個部分呢應該他一直以來就是全民非常重視的"},{"start":7412.99,"end":7413.731,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法"},{"start":7437.707,"end":7461.18,"text":"剋稅事件在補開稅單這個會不會造成人民他的救濟的程序反而變少了那是不是有損害到人民的權益就是上次我們有提到如果說他今天有補開一個稅單比如說原本是20萬然後後來在審查中發現還要多5萬變25萬那現在會變成一個新的處分會取代舊的處分"},{"start":7463.342,"end":7480.8,"text":"整個程序就簡化了因為當事人就少了複查跟訴願的程序他就直接跳進去訴訟那這樣對還是不對所以上一次我有請教上次到場的官員以及司法院的複密有關這個部分所以這一塊可能也要麻煩"},{"start":7481.761,"end":7481.781,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7507.168,"end":7527.163,"text":"我們要保證他的這個權利這可能再請大家能夠想一想那第二個就是有關草案的第13條的部分第13條其實他的規定是說法院如果認為有必要的話可以職權詢問當事人那當事人合法通知吳志昌就不到場他是得裁罰三萬塊以下的罰款"},{"start":7534.768,"end":7554.617,"text":"稅務的訴訟跟一般刑事的案件不太一樣刑事案件對於當事人的不利 當事人他必須接受 甚至他不想到場但是就稅務的部分 當事人他是提起一個司法的救濟"},{"start":7556.779,"end":7583.46,"text":"會不會不到場?從人性來看,他應該原則上都會想要到場去表示因為他不表示,他就被你課稅了他到場的意願應該是遠高於刑事案件的意願第二個,我們是採強制律師代理既然有強制律師代理,那為什麼還要刻意一個當事人的協同義務呢?這個是我想到的,會不會讓某些當事人覺得好像"},{"start":7584.161,"end":7613.593,"text":"好像把這個協同義務轉換成是一個我的舉證責任好像你要叫我到場我要說明我該怎麼樣那所以這個東西到底有沒有需要留下這一條再麻煩各位先進也再幫忙思考一下那還有就是其實很多東西當事人不到場法院自己也可以去計算那個稅額阿對不對所以也不是說一定要他一定要這個協議的義務到場這個是我認為這一塊好像有一點怪怪的"},{"start":7614.896,"end":7628.795,"text":"最後還有一個東西就是我上次的詢問的時候有提到稅審官的部分因為複密當時講的是說這個東西就像是制裁局的技術審查官一樣但是"},{"start":7630.097,"end":7648.636,"text":"這樣講好像聽起來也沒有錯嘛因為這個好像是這個觀念那可是呢你要想一件事情技術審查官他是從最早是從製裁局出來沒有錯從那邊去領選一些人可是製裁局在訴訟裡面他永遠不是訴訟當事人啊"},{"start":7649.677,"end":7674.203,"text":"當事人一定是原告被告一定是基本上就是民眾或是公司那些法人或當然也有可能是公家機關可是他不會是制裁局啊所以這個拿來比擬是有點怪因為稅審官他如果都是從國稅稅務機關去領選人才來的那稅務機關基本上他就是當事人所以這兩個東西我覺得比擬起來是"},{"start":7675.145,"end":7675.445,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7693.218,"end":7721.148,"text":"當事人 原本那個當事人的那個機關來而且3年後可能還要回去升官那這樣子他能不能夠做一個公平的論述可以公平的東西那我覺得這算是一個大家也要再考慮的齁我講 呃我還有最後就是 還有一個就是說這個稅審官喔你如果從國稅單位請來那他對於地方稅他到底守不守這也是一個問題那其他的稅務他他有沒有那個專業也是我覺得要考量的齁所以 呃"},{"start":7722.668,"end":7722.768,"text":"謝謝各位 謝謝主席"},{"start":7751.57,"end":7766.005,"text":"謝謝吳昭偉接下來在邀請陳文晶副教授發言之前先做程序上的預告稍後我們在莊瑞雄委員發言完畢後休息10分鐘接下來請陳教授發言"},{"start":7774.898,"end":7791.718,"text":"主席、莊委員以及所有與委會的學者及實務界的先進們大家好關於稅審法草案的內容我個人有以下幾點看法第一在稅務行政訴訟中納稅義務人仍然應該要負擔起協議義務"},{"start":7796.502,"end":7807.897,"text":"在稅捐基徵程序中﹐尤其是稅務機關依職權行使﹐調查權時﹐非常需要納稅義務人的配合﹐因此﹐納稅義務人必須保存帳部憑證﹐供稅務機關查核來正確課稅﹐"},{"start":7811.502,"end":7840.917,"text":"但不是所有的納稅醫務人都會乖乖保存帳簿憑證竟他們應盡的協力義務而是利用各種推脫之詞妨礙稅務機關正確核克如果在稅務行政訴訟中容許納稅醫務人不必負擔協力義務就會變成耍賴的孩子有糖吃只要納稅醫務人從一開始出核時就不提供任何帳簿憑證一路到複查訴願行政訴訟都不提供"},{"start":7841.357,"end":7842.258,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":7864.875,"end":7879.673,"text":"這對誠實納稅乖乖履行協力義務的納稅義務人來說是非常不公平的因此在制度的設計上面應該要使不想履行協力義務的納稅義務人無法逃避他們應盡的責任接下來要談的就是"},{"start":7881.155,"end":7899.025,"text":"在稅務行政訴訟中要求納稅義務人競協力義務與不自證己罪是不是產生衝突不自證己罪指的是說在刑事案件中不能強制被告證明自己的犯罪事實那在稅捐案件中呢"},{"start":7899.785,"end":7926.339,"text":"由於稅捐協力義務是屬於公法上的義務納稅義務人不會因為刑法上的不自證己罪而當然免除掉他公法上的協力義務所以即使是到了稅務行政訴訟程序中納稅義務人的稅捐協力義務仍然存在但是如果納稅義務人在訴訟程序中履行協力義務"},{"start":7927.7,"end":7954.476,"text":"有可能使納稅義務人面臨自證己罪的情形這個時候基於人性尊嚴的保護就變成要先維護納稅義務人的不自證己罪權利不能強迫他履行協力義務這裡我要強調的是協力義務仍然存在只是不強制納稅義務人履行而已而且必須是面臨"},{"start":7955.196,"end":7960.839,"text":"為了使行政法院具備專業能力計算出貼近真實的稅額徵涉稅務審查官是必要的這裡必須與第一點所提到的問題相呼應就是同業利潤標準偏低的問題"},{"start":7978.227,"end":7992.216,"text":"本來推計課稅的設計就是應該所得從高計算成本從低計算這樣稅積偏大所課徵的稅額才會多進而間接促使納稅義務人願意履行協力義務交出他的帳部憑證"},{"start":7993.817,"end":8015.828,"text":"但是如果像我們現在的實際情形同業利潤標準偏低也就是所得從低計算這樣納稅義務人賺得越多就越不願意履行協力義務因為他被推計課稅反而對他有利這樣一來只有傻呼呼的納稅義務人才會遵守乖乖遵守協力義務"},{"start":8017.461,"end":8041.943,"text":"所以,如果納稅義務人不遵守協議義務,那麼結果就是採用推計課稅。推計課稅制度的設計應該是要往推估高所得的方向去課徵。如果稅務機關因為種種因素而無法採用貼近真實稅額的計算方式,那可以由行政法院來代為計算,因為法院是中立的。"},{"start":8042.543,"end":8064.741,"text":"但是法學訓練上並沒有計算因納稅額這一塊啊所以為了讓法官能夠代替稅務機關計算出接近真實的因納稅額需要配套措施給法官們幫手也就是稅審法裡面的稅務審查官來協助法官作出判決"},{"start":8065.862,"end":8076.25,"text":"接下來的問題就是稅務審查官的來源要從哪裡來呢有可能是會計師也有可能是國稅局的稅務員如果法院請稅務機關的稅務員來擔任稅務審查官有可能會產生判決結果對稅務機關有利的疑慮這個疑慮從邏輯討論來說是合理的"},{"start":8088.4,"end":8112.267,"text":"但是我們還是要從實證經驗來看才知道這個疑慮是不是真的存在這部分我們可以參考智慧財產及商業法院過去的經驗自從2008年設置制裁法院以來為了能夠協助法院精準判斷制裁技術問題設置技術審查官來輔助法官辦案到目前為止這個制度已經施行16年了"},{"start":8113.647,"end":8135.813,"text":"而法院通常是向經濟部智慧財產局借調資深或者優秀的專利審查官來擔任技術審查官但是技術審查官的報告並沒有拘束法官的效力而且這些由技術審查官參與的判決也有相當一部分是主張要撤銷原處分"},{"start":8136.993,"end":8158.892,"text":"這是個很有趣的現象實證經驗的結果跟想像上的疑慮並不是完全的吻合這也反映出法官並不會被這些從主管機關借調來的幫手牽著走當然如果各位對稅審官的徵社還有疑慮請各位不要忘記法官"},{"start":8160.401,"end":8183.161,"text":"他有一定的法學素養不是提線木偶他只是需要藉助他人的專業能力來協助他完成審判而已因此也可以考慮讓法院打稅審官一部分的考機或增加淘汰機制避免各界的疑慮最後一點是簡報上沒有的就是解決萬年稅單的問題"},{"start":8185.544,"end":8198.515,"text":"將複查決定訴願決定與原課稅處分視為一體作為法院審理的對象才能夠解決萬年稅單的問題原因在於撤銷訴訟的程序標的應採取原處分主義簡單來說"},{"start":8200.376,"end":8214.732,"text":"作為提起行政訴訟先行程序的訴願程序其實是行政程序的一個延長所以當人民對原處分不服而提起訴願整個案子還是在行政系統的行政程序內進行"},{"start":8216.233,"end":8216.433,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8232.944,"end":8247.982,"text":"原處分只是一個最初形態決定而經由訴院決定所做成的處分才是整個行政系統對外的最終決定也才是法院徹效訴訟所要審理的對象"},{"start":8250.619,"end":8267.27,"text":"實體法上,複查決定與訴願決定同樣屬於行政處分,兩個都兼具於行政自我審查與權力救濟的功能,將複查決定、訴願決定與原課稅處分視為一體,作為法院審理的對象,可以充分解決萬年稅單的一個問題。"},{"start":8269.931,"end":8298.267,"text":"本草案歷經學界、司法、食物及財政部多次討論,難得有改革的共識,因此我全力支持本法盡速通過。未來施行後,如果發現需要改進的地方,也可以再做修改。以上是我個人簡要的看法,謝謝各位。好,謝謝我們陳教授。接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言。"},{"start":8299.394,"end":8301.195,"text":"之後我們就休息10分鐘謝謝鍾委員還有我們在場所有的學者專家還有我們列席的官員大家早安辛苦我想我剛坐在這個台下在那邊聆聽感觸非常多有一些話想要來講這整個我們稅務行政事件審理法這個草案在我們4號法制委員會在審的時候我曾經講過一句話"},{"start":8328.769,"end":8329.335,"text":"我要在場了"},{"start":8330.885,"end":8359.298,"text":"有辦法審出來的有辦法審 有能力審的三個我就要求我們主委我們召委一定要召開這個公聽每一次在這種這種重大的一個法律的一個修訂的時候我都特別有感覺就是說其實中間過程吵吵鬧鬧都很正常可是往前再去推的話就是一個進步可是在我們司法法制委員會裡面你說光各位剛提出的這些問題"},{"start":8360.872,"end":8384.955,"text":"這個是要讓我們整個委員會裡面來最後做出決定不容易會受到行政部門司法部門的影響會比較大因為畢竟這部法令裡面也經過了我看至少有超過兩年的一個時間在各界不管是司法院或者說在會計師或者律師界有這麼多學者專家大家共同來參與"},{"start":8386.156,"end":8386.996,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":8405.287,"end":8416.998,"text":"我也一直在看這部法律到底要怎麼樣去定性我比較擔心的是說你一部法令如果定了以後啊那到最後很多判決出來"},{"start":8419.093,"end":8447.06,"text":"造成社會上尤其是比較專業的人出來在吶喊這對整個司法的一個公正性其實是有傷害那在這個整個訴訟過程當中啊你怎麼樣去讓老百姓去感受到你法官做出一個判決他是具備公正性的或者在這個過程裡面你覺得他是有效率的不會讓我這個身為老百姓的在法院這邊來回這樣子去做一個奔波"},{"start":8448.052,"end":8473.932,"text":"在中間的過程裡面又涉及到那麼多的一個技術性的確實喔我最近一直在想這個問題那該怎麼辦那你一般在講說我們民事訴訟說當事人在進行主義那刑事訴訟的部分又類似於比較有法官比較過去是職權進行那你在這個整個行政我們這個整個稅務行政事件裡面你要把法官定性成什麼"},{"start":8474.853,"end":8493.259,"text":"我記得我上一次在質詢的時候我就特別提出來那個副秘書長跟那個我們稅務誒 財政部是政事還是稅務署我忘了我特別跟他講到這個整個稅審官的部分我說我不跟你談法律啦我就認為這個設計有一點點我們現在如果用這樣採這樣的一個設計的話你對當事人 對稅審官來講沒有期待可能性他那個角色的一個問題"},{"start":8501.522,"end":8526.303,"text":"角色的一個問題我會比較站在老百姓的立場我會認為這個五七就有點不平等憲法的設計就很好玩我們憲法的設計19條就很明顯的就講說人民有依法納稅的一個義務好了 框在這個地方啦重點是說增值來以後我們這部法律本來可以解決掉很多萬年稅單的一個問題可是呢這個看起來都是"},{"start":8527.455,"end":8546.083,"text":"一大突破可是這個過程裡面涉及到太多的一個爭議你像比如說你那個訴訟標的或者是那個中間判決那個計判例那個到底會設成會有多遠那又涉及到我們整個我們這些行政法院接下來他的"},{"start":8548.072,"end":8559.288,"text":"法官的一個養成真的是這樣子幾個小時或者說幾天的時間大家密集來授訊就有能力來審這樣的一個案件嗎"},{"start":8560.478,"end":8563.28,"text":"摸著良心 不會受騙 我比較擔心一定會被稅審官牽著走這是勢必的 我就沒那麼厲害吳宗憲委員剛剛也是法律專家可是他就是檢察官出身 不要說你民法摸得少就算你在民庭的 或者是一個律師你專門在打民事 可是民事的領域又有多大"},{"start":8588.277,"end":8590.679,"text":"有辦法期待稅務行政事件審理法官在那麼短的訓練裏面有辦法承擔指揮訴訟或判決"},{"start":8606.055,"end":8621.842,"text":"要做出一個非常好的判決 讓人家拍手的 不容易但是要做出一個判決 讓人家一直可以跟你幹嬌 挑出毛病的 那又很簡單喔譬如說副秘書長 你現在代理秘書長 你那個研究發了一四人的叫你來審 你是多大而已沒有摸過 不會就是不會啊真的啊 我記得我在當小律師的時候啊"},{"start":8632.219,"end":8637.283,"text":"我也只能在稅務這個部分稍稍涉略以後 那個太龐雜了 我簡單講一個 你說一個繼承案件裡面涉及到你多少債務要去把它扣除掉"},{"start":8652.076,"end":8676.353,"text":"各位如果是女士國稅局的 我告訴你 我就欠總裁員多少 只有這條證明有多久我如果說 留下來的時候 那個國票 那個都沒有試駕 未上市的有多少光這一些 你說到最後 這個過程涉及到那麼多專業的一個判斷要交給我們整個稅務行政事件的審理的法官 去一次把它做一個終極的一個決定"},{"start":8678.24,"end":8693.549,"text":"我看實在是不容易但是我也期許各位的意見拜託多一點給我們一點書面我相信我們在司法法制委員會我們也會努力把各位的意見來做一個權衡在審理的過程裡面我們會很仔細的去把關"},{"start":8701.596,"end":8701.716,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8726.019,"end":8738.606,"text":"到最後如果 其實確實是重要 過了以後你們要準備二次修法啦真的啦 一定會的啦 常常都會是這樣子啦我看以前這個民事訴訟委員會 研討委員會 修法委員會 或者行政訴訟大家都定期這樣在討論 我都一直覺得 行政訴訟 誒程式醫學老師我看你們都失職啦你們應該都故意賺錢而已啊 不然大家看這樣找比較多人 有時間就大家好好研究 這個才會進步啊"},{"start":8754.955,"end":8760.48,"text":"我看民事訴訟在修法的過程裡面到最後為什麼變得會比較順利就有研討的過程裡面有權威見解會出現譬如說整個大廈到變權威教授啦權威見解 權威律師這樣大家都在走比較不會淡淡不然現在你在稅務行政的部分喔到最後我跟大家報告這不是 免疫大家喔"},{"start":8779.465,"end":8784.008,"text":"立法院很多同事問我說 什麼人比較權威啊 我們來找那個好不好人會跟著一起走的話 內心會走的比較安全因為我們不容易隨隨便便 說你一個法律 我就聽誰的就過去聽司法院的 聽 聽他又怪怪的 他又官方聽民間 又不知道要聽誰的 聽律師改的 待會想律師改的都要探錢而已"},{"start":8806.254,"end":8812.436,"text":"你聽法官：法官很明顯你就是不管是法官或者律師你過去的養成你確實是你都連課錢也不課到這裡說一句實在啦是大家最後胡亂吞早是因為大家程度都不錯"},{"start":8820.979,"end":8829.89,"text":"基本法學素養都有然後這些在原理原則大家再來好好去努力一下都有辦法來精進可是涉及到人民財產權的問題我真的這樣覺得也拜託大家各位都是資深的"},{"start":8836.357,"end":8836.878,"text":"法學專家"},{"start":8853.028,"end":8878.59,"text":"我是覺得這個部分也應該有義務以各位都有那個能力來一起來推進立法院你們不要期待太多啦立法院我們是可以這樣喔你們的意見我們站起來看一看對一下比較有道理我們司法及法制委員會真的送出去以後院會幾乎都會差不多嘛會尊重我們嘛因為畢竟這是比較專業的可是在審法的過程 修法的過程裡面請各位你們去看直播"},{"start":8880.131,"end":8884.152,"text":"會發言才會這樣他講不下去,真的講不下去,真的講不下去所以這個真的是也要拜託大家我們盡量來讓這一部法令來做一個完備啦確實是可以一次來做一個解決不然以前的行政法案大家被批評的就是你就這樣撤銷而已啊撤銷而已啊你都敢駁回你敢駁回你敢駁回"},{"start":8899.377,"end":8899.877,"text":"謝謝莊委員 我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9534.768,"end":9538.23,"text":"秋成副教授"},{"start":9561.589,"end":9586.707,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位在場的專家學者還有各位與會的先進大家好我想剛剛大家都提了蠻多的意見那我當然也非常的贊同那我想就是說當然也表達一些就是說一些自己的想法然後我想說我們可以做一個意見的交流"},{"start":9587.688,"end":9589.61,"text":"稅審法的爭定與納保法之間的關係稅審法的爭定最主要的目的之一"},{"start":9603.9,"end":9605.121,"text":"為了讓法院能夠依照納稅者權利保護法第21條第3項的規定可以自為稅捐的核定 稅額的確認"},{"start":9622.197,"end":9650.335,"text":"那當然就是說剛才蠻多的這個學者都有提到這個萬年稅單這樣子的一個問題那萬年稅單基本上他是怎麼樣去產生的那其實就是因為我們的納稅義務人那對這個課稅處分有爭議的時候那基本上最主要是提起這一個撤銷訴訟那當這個納稅義務人在有理由的這個情況之下"},{"start":9651.805,"end":9654.046,"text":"撤銷訴訟的裁判類型包括單純的撤銷、撤銷發回、自為裁判傳統法院認為稅額的確定"},{"start":9671.613,"end":9672.053,"text":"實務上的做法,基本上的撤銷"},{"start":9691.493,"end":9711.27,"text":"原處分基本上只會測到複查決定原處分基本上是不會去做測銷的所以發回後的原處分機關基本上有可能重新做成與原課稅處分相同內容的行政處分所以這會造成納稅義務人基本上"},{"start":9714.963,"end":9734.688,"text":"好不容易經由了非常冗長的行政救濟程序最終達到了行政訴訟基本上他也是在勝訴的情況之下但是他卻沒有辦法藉由法院的確定的終局判決來獲得正確的因納稅額"},{"start":9741.05,"end":9741.35,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議公聽會議"},{"start":9762.037,"end":9781.268,"text":"在105年公布納保法第21條的第三項規定也就是說行政法院對於納稅者的因納稅而因查明事證以何時確認在納稅者聲明不符的範圍之內定期訴訟所以我想就是說"},{"start":9783.285,"end":9793.612,"text":"我們第一個就是說的一個目標就是希望就是讓我們的一個就是這個行政法院審查這個稅務專庭的法官他對於這種課稅處分"},{"start":9799.955,"end":9817.421,"text":"人民對於課稅處分不符在人民有理由的情況之下他們可以將這一個裁判類型從撤銷發回導致為裁判那所以就是說當然就是說這個到底要怎麼樣"},{"start":9818.782,"end":9831.634,"text":"讓法院可以自為裁判這必須要有許多配套措施最主要的中心理念就是不要讓納稅義務人遭受冗長的課稅程序"},{"start":9840.942,"end":9841.243,"text":"草案第20條規定"},{"start":9854.116,"end":9871.146,"text":"提到質疑的部分就是說雖然基金機關於訴願決定送達或第一審撤銷訴訟系統中就同一課稅事件另外這個做成新處分來取代或變更這個原來的課稅處分的時候那無需經這個複查還有訴願"},{"start":9873.707,"end":9901.189,"text":"基本上即取代原處分成為撤銷訴訟的一個程序標的那我想基本上其實因為這本身就是基於同一個課稅事實那確實就是說沒有必要就是說這個納稅義務人他還要再重新進行一次的複查還有這一個訴願的一個程序所以我會覺得說其實這個法律這個草案基本上我覺得他是有一個實施的必要"},{"start":9902.642,"end":9903.502,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":9924.767,"end":9951.319,"text":"租多配合的實施這些實施我想其實是落實在稅審法的一個草案當中首先就是說在實務上基本上我們會看到蠻多的案件基本上它是涉及到推計課稅的那其實尤其是推計課稅以往法院都會認為說它是一個行政權的一個展現那所以呢基本上"},{"start":9952.688,"end":9953.288,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":9976.585,"end":9992.506,"text":"所以行政法院應該是可以就這個合法性為司法審查這樣子所以我們是覺得就是說就算在推計課稅的案件之下那我們的這一個法院基本上它也是要這個自為這個稅額的一個核定"},{"start":9993.507,"end":10014.613,"text":"那到底要怎麼樣去推計課稅基本上我覺得推計課稅它是涉及到一個就是比較是技術性上面的一個層面其實推計課稅也沒有大家所想的這麼的單純就是說這個納稅義務人不履行協力義務所以我們就是用同業利潤標準去推計他的一個所得額"},{"start":10015.753,"end":10037.586,"text":"因為有時候的狀況是發生就是說那算義務人基本上他可以提出他的一個營業收入的這樣子的一個證明但是他對於成本費用基本上他是沒有辦法去提出的那或者是說營業人基本上他可以去提出他的一個營業的銷售額但是呢他對於他的一個鏡像憑證的這個部分是沒有辦法去提出的"},{"start":10038.506,"end":10066.637,"text":"那在這些的狀況之下到底要怎麼樣去推計課稅才會最合於就是貼近局納稅義務人實際的所得那甚至於我們說就是說對納稅義務人最有利基本上我覺得這個技術層面的操作因為其實推計課稅它本身就是一個事實認定的一個問題那這個事實的認定基本上我覺得或許是"},{"start":10067.839,"end":10094.971,"text":"我們的基層人員基本上我覺得是一個因為他平常都在做這些事情所以我會覺得說在這個熟悉度上面我覺得基層人員是最適合的那我覺得大家可能都把基層人員想得非常的壞這樣子都會覺得說他就是說要來侵犯納稅義務人的權利就是說反正就是說這個有可能就是說讓他們當稅審官的話那是不是會求員兼裁判"},{"start":10095.831,"end":10107.834,"text":"那我想剛剛就是陳理事長有提到就是說在納保官當初實施的時候那其實大家也非常多的質疑就是納保官基本上他到底會不會站在納稅義務人的這邊然後呢替這個納稅義務人的有關於這個課稅的爭議來做一個比較中立的這樣子的一個判斷"},{"start":10117.296,"end":10140.183,"text":"那因為我之前擔任財政部納保會的一個委員那我發現納保官實施的成效其實算是不錯的那為什麼是不錯呢?因為他們就會有一個滿意度調查這樣子那幾乎每年是可是我覺得那個數字我也覺得有點懷疑因為每年都百分之百耶就是說納稅一五人對那個納保官就是非常的讚許這樣子"},{"start":10141.423,"end":10143.744,"text":"實施成效還不錯納保官從經驗豐富的機政人員挑出來納保官讓行政徵送案件減少人民提出複查"},{"start":10162.409,"end":10162.729,"text":"財政部北區國稅局副查外部委員"},{"start":10188.49,"end":10188.89,"text":"推計課稅對納稅義務人更有利"},{"start":10212.176,"end":10232.065,"text":"那所以竟然是對他們更有利的情況之下其實他們是故意不去履行協力義務然後就是為了要推計課稅這樣適用這一個同業利潤標準這樣子那他不提的原因基本上也有可能就是說他的帳冊有一些問題所以呢基本上他不想要去提出這樣子"},{"start":10232.865,"end":10233.365,"text":"司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":10252.652,"end":10280.366,"text":"那再來就是說我們提到的就是說這個協力義務的這個部分那就是說有這個罰還的一個問題那我想就是說如果我們從協力義務的本質去看的話基本上他最主要是要去計算正確的稅額那既然是要去正確的去計算稅額的話那我想就是不管是誠實申報的納稅義務人或是不誠實申報的納稅義務人基本上他還是都有協力義務"},{"start":10281.947,"end":10287.874,"text":"協力義務不分你是呈事申報還是不呈事申報要求納稅義務人到場去說明避免一些僥倖的情況發生刻意不履行協力義務"},{"start":10303.049,"end":10329.605,"text":"這個財法我覺得其實它在論理上是有正當性的因為它本身就是違反這個行政法上的一個義務這樣子所以處以行為法其實就是納稅義務人違反這個協力義務處以行為法的話其實在我們的經政法第44條以下其實都有規定這樣子那況且就是說其實我們的草案其實剛才這個學者有提到就是說這第13條是規定德所以換句話是說德處以罰還所以是法官他基本上具有財量的權限"},{"start":10330.506,"end":10331.747,"text":"財量權限由法官決定是非常適切的協定義務及不治政紀罪"},{"start":10346.943,"end":10373.682,"text":"因為我想就是說協力物有時跟不治正己罪它會處於一個緊張關係所以我們才會在我們的草案第14條當中去提到就是說基本上是不得已強制執行的方法促使為之如果說可能會就是說這個可能協力物的履行可能會讓納稅務人限於一個就是說會去舉證自己的可能會涉及到一個刑事處罰或是行政秩序的處罰的這個部分"},{"start":10375.703,"end":10401.41,"text":"那當然就是說以德國法經驗來看的話就是說基本上這些資料不能夠作為納稅誘人犯罪的證據也就是說補稅核定的資料不能拿來作為納稅誘人構成逃漏稅的一個證據資料所以我是非常贊成就是說在陳教授剛剛提到就是說本稅跟裁罰應該要分開審理這樣子那因為時間到了就是說最後我講一個部分就是說其實我覺得我們都在講就是說"},{"start":10402.21,"end":10402.35,"text":"委員會公聽會議"},{"start":10429.156,"end":10430.077,"text":"謝謝邱教授接下來我們有請柯格宗教授請"},{"start":10466.142,"end":10484.038,"text":"稍微還有在座各位那個司法法制委員會的女士先生還有在座我們的同僚們學術同僚們以及實務工作者大家好那就關於稅務行政事件審理法的草案的這個相關的問題我大概"},{"start":10484.502,"end":10486.743,"text":"稅審法是一個專業性的行政訴訟法,專門針對稅務事件行政訴訟上所需要的各項條件來備齊"},{"start":10508.095,"end":10522.515,"text":"那也就是說這個地方當然連帶會牽動到它跟納保法之間的關係基本上來講這兩部法律它本身都並沒有互相衝突的問題它比較接近是行政訴訟法因為在納保法裡面只有21條它只有一個條文處理"},{"start":10524.958,"end":10548.445,"text":"所謂的納保的這個稅捐爭議事件裡面你要怎麼去做那個從徵典主義走向總和主義那因為法律規範是不夠的它就只有一個條文而已那也因此從那個地方延伸出來把相關的你在做行政救濟程序裡面你需要的東西透過行政訴訟法的特別法也就是這一部稅務事件審理法"},{"start":10548.945,"end":10574.535,"text":"的法案來把它精緻化跟處理相關的爭議問題那裡面其實萬年稅單只是它一個表面現象啦基本上應該是它如何協助法院可以在盡量可能事實發現的前提底下裡面去自為判決這才是整個草案的核心精神所在因為你只要能自為判決就不用發回嘛"},{"start":10574.895,"end":10574.975,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10593.521,"end":10619.408,"text":"盡量回到法院我們法院是一個我們至少假定它就是一個公平的場所稅務事件裡面的法官他去看這個案件裡面你國稅局這個認定有沒有到你法律解釋適用有沒有問題因此稅審法它是在這個意義底下裡面你說我們要更保護納稅人的權利當然啦即使解決紛爭就是保護你的權利我們大家都知道時代正義不是正義啊但回過頭來就是這個也不能"},{"start":10620.128,"end":10620.148,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10643.666,"end":10644.066,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期"},{"start":10667.85,"end":10685.468,"text":"必須要支持這樣一個稅務事件審理法的提出因為這個武嶺可以讓我們行政法院在稅務事件上他有審理認定事實上非常重要的必要的工具第二件事情我們就來講稅審官因為前面很多先進包括其實我們莊委員也在那邊想這個"},{"start":10687.009,"end":10702.339,"text":"所以省官他到底可能是怎麼作用我們在座所有包括學者專家在內包括我自己在內我們都法律背景我們在學校學什麼包括剛剛已經先離開黃委員我們都法律背景我們法律背景學的東西我們知道我們自己缺什麼講白一點就是我們沒有實務操作看帳簿的經驗"},{"start":10712.494,"end":10733.272,"text":"憑證對賬 賬做出財報然後才來變成是我們在科稅案件裡面那個科稅處分那個事實的認定事實認定含涉到法律過程對法律人來講沒有困難但他的前提的事實這件事情是怎麼樣我們因為我們的法律背景的訓練我們基本上是沒有那個訓練那個可能是要"},{"start":10734.073,"end":10734.253,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10750.023,"end":10765.186,"text":"他的作用就是幫法官去看帳簿去看行政到底有沒有正確完整性因為這件事情是後面他要判斷事實的前提基礎講白一點就是你沒事實沒辦法適用法律"},{"start":10766.127,"end":10780.927,"text":"後面那個部分法官自己就會用了所以甚至你看那個王庭長他先離開了他們在商業法庭裡面紀審官也是這樣啊你提出來的東西你至少也要能夠讓法官可以先相信這個事實是對的"},{"start":10782.088,"end":10799.707,"text":"不需要太過妖魔化每個在這個職位工作上的每個人稅審官這個事情如果你怕他不中立就像剛剛陳會計師有提到那件事情其實作為一個行政官僚輔助法官去認定事實的一個官僚來講的話"},{"start":10800.768,"end":10828.62,"text":"其實考機這件事情確實很重要因為講白一點就是我又不是法官終身職的那我需要一個東西所以也許我們可以在行政法院的體系裡面透過對稅審官的相關的這個考案因為無論如何稅審官他的功能是在協助稅務事件的行政法院他在認定事實這一件事情上面因為一家營利事業特別是哪一個部分他真的非常需要稅審官的協助"},{"start":10828.9,"end":10829.24,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10848.451,"end":10849.352,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":10872.701,"end":10900.186,"text":"為什麼會需要國稅局我們按從德國的經驗來看他是這樣他說因為你沒有跑過外務沒有實際去查帳的人看不懂貓膩所以不是做會計的你做內勤的人不懂所以德國慕尼黑法院的實務經驗是他要5年實際現場查核他去看現場他就知道你這個帳簿他的功能就是他要看帳簿的完整性跟真實性"},{"start":10901.426,"end":10925.643,"text":"這件事情沒有學過這個東西的法律人 基本上包括我自己在內 我是看不出貓膩的啦你說今天他把一個科目從那個資產調成費用 欸 這個會不會影響所得 一定啊但不是學稅法的 其實大概出錢可以知道 欸 這個會影響所得學法律的如果不是學稅法的 其實他不太知道這個有什麼關聯性"},{"start":10927.245,"end":10941.984,"text":"稅審官的功能跟作用無靈就是幫助法院在剛剛講的前階段這個事實的認定那當然啦這個我也必須要去講啦為什麼那不然你可以找外部德國的經驗是這樣啦因為他找外部他怕有中立性問題"},{"start":10942.725,"end":10956.93,"text":"他反而不知道這個人因為我們自己也曾經當過一些案件裡面的外部的那個委員幫忙就是說如果某甲來找我說柯老師你可不可以幫我們給個鑑定的意見我看一看說"},{"start":10957.87,"end":10980.033,"text":"我的結論好像跟你希望我的結論不一樣那你覺得你會請我嗎?我也不好意思啊你懂我意思嗎?所以在德國人的經驗裡面他是說你如果找外部人也可以但是有時候找外部人就要看當事人要不要這是第一個因為要出錢的問題那如果是法院自己找的話他就會存在著一個他也不太知道他的"},{"start":10980.213,"end":10980.493,"text":"國稅局實際查賬"},{"start":11001.008,"end":11029.853,"text":"法官就知道問題在哪裡了他就可以在事實調查的時候往他想要查的那個方向去做事實的調查這就是稅審官的功能就像紀審官我們不是做技術你有沒有進步性新創性你會知道那還真的是你還真的是太厲害了因為我們法律人的背景我們受過民刑法訓練這一點我們沒有問題行政法憲法的訓練我們沒有問題可是我們不一定就是那個專利技術或者是看賬簿的專家"},{"start":11030.533,"end":11054.399,"text":"同理可證第三個問題講協力義務的部分因為這個協力義務其實前面幾位先進大概都有談了很多問題我必須要先說一下其實協力義務是對瞌睡事實他不是在對處罰這件事情要先弄清楚在座的幾乎應該不會有一個人會去主張說處罰自己的事情我要有協力對這個事情去做"},{"start":11055.539,"end":11077.368,"text":"證明說自己去陳述自己有犯罪的事實沒有人在座絕對不會有一個法律背景包括我們的早委包括我們所有在場的每個人不會有人說你要對自己自己有犯罪事去陳述不是這個意思他其實協力物的本意是對瞌睡事實這件事實他是不利但瞌睡不是處罰"},{"start":11079.039,"end":11095.848,"text":"他確實是加諸你一個金錢負擔義務那他裡面的邏輯是這樣他是說今天你作為誠實納稅人你有協力義務你要自己告訴國家說你賺多少錢對不對你的所得有對不對那你說我今天是犯罪人所以我就不用告知"},{"start":11096.348,"end":11119.661,"text":"他不就賺到了嗎?我就先說我犯罪,抱歉我都連陳述都不陳述所以他這裡面有一個基本的背後講法就是不管你是不是誠實這一件事情,原則上你今天就是要先做協力那為了要調和不自證己罪,所以他變成的是你到場陳述提出證據方法,這個地方就切一個提出證據方法這件事情我們不強制"},{"start":11120.721,"end":11140.715,"text":"你說我自己可能會有因為我可能販賣人口或是怎樣怎樣有什麼偽造文書這個事實的話這個部分他不強制你去做這個可是他基本上的概念還是回到就是說協力對象其實是瞌睡事實那當然最後面就是說這個協力如果你不去做協力的話會後面我們會開啟的一個就是你違反協力而且你主觀上可規則可能會有被處罰的問題"},{"start":11148.2,"end":11149.181,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":11172.657,"end":11196.903,"text":"內部推計就是按照你自己個人以往的經營成果外部推計就是別人因為你內部你第一年營業有什麼以前的經營成果基本上還是看同業同行你們同業同行做這件事情大概會增多少那裡面有一個概念就是說你在這裡面就是說我要推計的時候我倒是要比較高一點的推還是低一點的推德國人是在爭這個"},{"start":11198.543,"end":11217.336,"text":"進訴訟的時候你不給的話這個地方推他是從高推還是從低推一般來講鑑於因為帳部是一種成本你請一位會計師幫你記帳報稅不用錢嗎應該沒有人做這樣的公益事業所以他是一個成本"},{"start":11217.876,"end":11238.382,"text":"所以當你記帳本身是個成本的時候你就不能不考慮推的時候基本上是稍微高一點推不然的話他沒有辦法反映那個真實成本啦所以推計某種概念他確實會崇高去推但不能說這樣就叫處罰喔他只是一個市場上最高就是你們做這套的大概賺多少錢"},{"start":11238.922,"end":11240.002,"text":"謝謝柯教授接下來我們請張委員這輪發言五分鐘"},{"start":11273.127,"end":11292.585,"text":"主席各位先進大家好今天要討論的是稅務行政事件審理法草案目前針對稅務行政事件是由行政法院的稅務專業法庭以行政訴訟法來審理而為了讓稅務行政事件處理更為妥善"},{"start":11293.386,"end":11310.682,"text":"行政院提出專法來保障人民基本權利讓稅務行政訴訟制度更專業有效率所以本席在這邊要提出的建議是有關於此草案的第7條此草案第7條提到高等行政法院高等行政訴訟庭"},{"start":11311.963,"end":11327.265,"text":"管轄通常訴訟程序第一審稅務行政事件及程序進行中所產生之其他事件因委任律師為訴訟代理人並適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理制規定但"},{"start":11328.346,"end":11354.166,"text":"受命法官準備程序時準用行政訴訟法第49條之一第四項第八項第49條之二第一項關於行政法院或審判長權限制規定其中行政訴訟法第49條之一第四項第八項第49條之二第一項即認定會計師得為訴訟行政事件之訴訟"},{"start":11355.367,"end":11372.6,"text":"代理人所以本席認為制定專法就是為了讓稅務行政事件的審理更為簡單更為單純有效率那麼就不需要在法條條文中準用行政訴訟法應直接於條文中明定"},{"start":11373.905,"end":11398.426,"text":"既然行政訴訟法中都已經明定稅務行政事件具備會計師資格者得為訴訟代理人那麼就直接在稅務行政事件審理法草案中直接訂定之將草案第7條改為高等法院高等行政訴訟管轄之通常訴訟程序第一審"},{"start":11400.653,"end":11420.981,"text":"稅務行政事件及程序進行中所生之其他事件應委任律師或會計師為訴訟代理人並適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理之規定更能保障人民之基本權利以上 謝謝好 謝謝張委員接下來我們有請王軒亞主任委員發言"},{"start":11434.269,"end":11456.544,"text":"主席 各位與會先進 專家學者 大家午安今天呢 我想要就這個稅務事件審理法的這個草案從我這個多年職業的經驗來談起因為談我們有關於稅務行政究竟需要解決的問題我以五下來進行分享"},{"start":11457.344,"end":11484.424,"text":"第一個是我們在案件當中其實會常看到就是同一個年度其實會有所謂的一合二合怎麼說呢就是當事人可能在收到第一次的合訂通知書的時候他可能在這個救濟過程當中就是複查、訴願、行政訴訟一審、二審的過程當中他有可能再次接受到第二次的稅局針對同一個年度然後提起"},{"start":11485.569,"end":11504.485,"text":"就在科與第二次的合訂通知書因此有些當事人還是可能會就這個第二個的合訂通知書進行救濟你就會發現在同一個年度裡頭有第一次的合訂通知書跟第二次的合訂通知書在不同的行政救濟階段"},{"start":11506.027,"end":11521.521,"text":"當事人如果就這樣同一個事件 譬如說以同一個年度來講他可能就要走兩次的行政救濟 這在我們跟當事人的互動經驗裡頭他確實會覺得增加他的勞力時間費用 還有一些焦慮的心情一直持續著"},{"start":11522.722,"end":11540.167,"text":"那現在呢,過往我們其實也有在,不管是在學校學習或職業經驗,其實剛剛吳委員也有提到,其實會重視一個程序的保障,可是這個程序的保障該怎麼進行做,又如何兼顧到說在"},{"start":11541.207,"end":11557.603,"text":"在這種情形就是不可以有可能增加同一種分爭竟可能在同一次解決的可能性我覺得在這一次的草案裡頭我們看到了一個曙光但是我們要怎麼樣同時因應到這樣的程序可能一併審理是不是有影響到"},{"start":11558.884,"end":11583.282,"text":"當事人的程序性的保障那其實我們根據觀察啦其實我們在審理當中時程的安排當中其實可以針對這個部分呢第二次合定通知書給予多一點的準備程序緩和這個程序保障的影響這是第一個想要提到的部分我們覺得在這個稅審法裡頭草案我們看到了一個不一樣的點第二個"},{"start":11584.523,"end":11601.272,"text":"是我們實務上其實常常會涉及到計政機關要做成的行政處分他會受到其他行政機關就具體的個案的事實認定要做一個或者是法律適用的舉訴就是譬如說典型的就是多階段的行政處分"},{"start":11601.972,"end":11626.263,"text":"那過往其實我們通常針對這種案件我們自己身為訴訟代理人我們都會在程序性申請就是希望這個前一個階段的行政機關要訴訟參加那在這次的草案裡頭我們第6條我們其實也看到這樣的情形納入這也就可以增加了一個可預測性也就是說當遇到多階段行政處分其實在法院審理當中"},{"start":11629.42,"end":11656.038,"text":"會命行政機關輔助依照進行參加我覺得這也是我覺得改善我們實務上會出現的情形那第三個呢就是剛剛前面也都有談到的我在具體講譬如說我們在訴知聲明在稅務訴訟撰寫上然後等到行政法院獲得勝訴判決的主文的時候會拿到什麼呢就是訴願決定及原處分及復查"},{"start":11660,"end":11675.326,"text":"訴願決定及原處分及複查決定徹銷這地方有沒有特別注意到我講及原處分及複查決定也就是說其實在過往當中我們其實並沒有辦法直接針對原處分進行徹交他其實只能徹交到複查決定"},{"start":11676.727,"end":11691.046,"text":"因此我們看到這次的草案第8條其實我們也看到有機會在針對這個所謂的萬年稅端的問題獲得一個解決我覺得這也是我們稅審法的這個草案裡頭有一個很大的突破"},{"start":11692.83,"end":11712.913,"text":"第4個我想要談一下這個協力義務的部分針對協力義務其實我們簡單來講我們細膩看一下其實納稅人可以簡單分成兩類就是個人跟盈利事業那在個人的部分其實我們的納稅義務其實譬如說依照有"},{"start":11713.433,"end":11738.608,"text":"我們用流程來看好了 可以分成稅籍登記 記帳就是記帳要保持這些帳簿然後甚至要取得要給予保存這個憑證的部分甚至申報配合義務還有接受調查義務還有繳納稅捐的義務在個人的情況其實你可以發現前面的三個稅局登記其實不需要有個人沒有要稅代理稅籍登記"},{"start":11739.948,"end":11764.347,"text":"記帳的部分其實我們一般個人來說也不需要設置那第三個至於取得或保存這些憑證的部分其實在列舉扣除的部分其實會需要的那當然接下來就會有所謂的申報義務甚至要配合調查的這個義務還有繳納稅款的義務這是個人以個人來講的協力義務我們從法規上的可以看到的一個部分"},{"start":11765.72,"end":11780.432,"text":"至於盈利事業呢?盈利事業我們剛剛講到這個6個部分其實都會對應到就是需要都是他的負擔的範圍就是稅籍登記然後記帳然後取據發給保存憑證申報還有配合調查跟繳納稅捐的義務"},{"start":11786.016,"end":11806.393,"text":"在這個地方其實我們可以發現其實針對於個人的部分跟盈利事業其實負擔的範圍不太一樣在個人部分其實應該是要基本上盡量要不干預人民就是這種非國家社會領域的部分等於是說他可能在這個協力義務上"},{"start":11808.334,"end":11808.554,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11826.317,"end":11826.957,"text":"秘密外泄"},{"start":11842.256,"end":11842.636,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":11859.634,"end":11859.774,"text":"稅務行政事件審議"},{"start":11878.746,"end":11893.488,"text":"所以我在想這邊補充一下說在這個協力應務部分我們覺得說其實剛剛前面的先進都有提到一些部分我們覺得我就補充說明一下其實可以再有一些基礎的概念去做一個思考"},{"start":11895.439,"end":11909.725,"text":"第5個推計的部分目前的課稅其實還是要以核實課稅為原則這在納保法21條第3項有提到而推計課稅其實是例外它在納保法的第14條的部分有"},{"start":11910.265,"end":11910.665,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法"},{"start":11935.948,"end":11954.686,"text":"讓這件事情在法院的審酌過程當中﹐可以有一個比較客觀公平的原則進行做參考但我另外也想要提出來是說﹐其實不論是個人或盈利事業﹐其實財政部啊﹐他其實都掌握了多年以來大家的稅務﹐"},{"start":11956.467,"end":11956.647,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11977.815,"end":11999.597,"text":"相關的專家學者來進行就這些部分來進行一個協力義務他這個如何推計課稅的一個基本的標準來可以未來也可以拿出來做一個參考也可以降低擔心可能剛剛前面提到的法官在進行這裡的時候有沒有可能有譬如說稅審官的避免疑慮"},{"start":12000.987,"end":12030.205,"text":"最後呢想要說一下就是其實蠻肯定司法院努力付諸行動跨出一個很大一步要解決我們剛剛就是當然還不只這些但是要解決稅法上很多長年的問題那我覺得草案過程當中雖然我沒有就是偶爾出參與部分的會議但我覺得我看到是大家其實都能夠自由表達意見還有表達不同的想法尋求最大的共識那現在草案也進到立法院了我們也期待這一步好"},{"start":12030.725,"end":12030.765,"text":"聖子榮議員發言"},{"start":12053.933,"end":12054.954,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12070.748,"end":12087.988,"text":"因為這個法律讓法官很累為什麼很累呢 因為我們過去的法官基本上就是採撤銷發回的模式只要發現課稅主有一點毛病 撤銷回去 重查 重查 就這樣而且撤銷只撤銷到互查決定 不會撤銷到原本的稅單"},{"start":12089.489,"end":12106.584,"text":"這案子就變成鬼打牆 無限巡迴那下次來又挑一個小毛病 在這下又發回這為什麼叫萬年稅單 就是法院沒有足夠的專業能力去審稅務的案件他沒有辦法自己把最後的稅額給決定出來這就是大家最詬病的萬年稅單的問題"},{"start":12110.147,"end":12133.73,"text":"同一個課稅年度 或者同一個遺產稅的課稅事件 修機關可能他的稅單不會一次來但這也是合理的 因為納稅可能隱藏了很多的事證 修機關可能是慢慢發現事證我又發現100萬了 我再補100萬 我又發現100萬了 我再補100萬所以同一個課稅年度也好 同一個遺產稅也好 可能稅單是一合 二合 三合 四合"},{"start":12135.534,"end":12143.279,"text":"納稅怎麼辦 因為這些稅單都是分開的 因此它是分開審納稅每一個稅單都要重新互查 訴願 辛苦地打一次"},{"start":12144.69,"end":12173.766,"text":"那偏偏這幾個案子又分屬不同的法院審理而彼此之間這稅單往往有連動性它又往往有加加減減的連動性藉著導致了如果法院審查分歧或判決不一的時候造成納稅人權力保障的各種高度的風險而且付出的訴訟成本更是不計其數那要解決問題就是說我們引進了德國財務法院法的總額主義這個在德國實施多年啦"},{"start":12174.773,"end":12199.903,"text":"坦白說 很多問題要怎麼解決我們大概看德國人的操作模式大概很快就找到答案所以 為什麼法院 很多法官很害怕但是司法院還是願意做這件事情就是說 總要跨出這一步吧不然 就繼續留在原來的位置也可以啊對法官來很輕鬆 就撤銷後悔 撤銷後悔納稅就不斷地很累他可能一個案子打了20年他可能一個事件 接了五六張稅單打個沒完沒了 那不改也可以啊"},{"start":12203.772,"end":12228.309,"text":"那我們今天跨出這一步 其實司法案肯做我其實我們參與的團隊是非常感動的因為這法官很辛苦啦我真的是跳火坑要來終局的解決問題自為判決我覺得如果這一點不肯定而看中一些小細節的話對這個法案真正追求的精神是非常大的傷害也是非常的惋惜而且有時候時間錯過了"},{"start":12229.951,"end":12234.462,"text":"不見得就是適當的立法時機有可能我們納稅人長期的又繼續忍受那種萬年稅單而且多張稅單不斷重複干擾的情形"},{"start":12239.782,"end":12260.139,"text":"接下來剛才有文委員特別提到對於二合或三合的稅單採法定數字變更 自動進入法律審查的範圍會不會使人民程序表上縮水這是多慮了 為什麼這麼說因為我們目前的稅單原則上沒有事前依據行政程序法的規定 進行正當法律程序"},{"start":12261.405,"end":12289.617,"text":"所以通常是稅單先課了你再來互查數月也就是那個正當程序是在後面做在互查程序做事前都非常的簡略我們通常都是由基增機關分局或者是分處的人發出第一次的通知書那個基本上都是由對法律不熟的人而且對正當法律程序不熟的人也沒有進行正當法律程序的人發出第一張稅單等於你不服再來互查再由法律人考慮程序有沒有什麼地方在互查階段才去處理"},{"start":12291.741,"end":12312.311,"text":"今天如果我們把它變成法定數字變更會產生什麼問題說互查書院縮水了這可能只是表面上的觀察第一個我們在草案當中增加了事前必須做好非常完備的行政程序也就是納稅的參與不是在互查階段跟書院階段它變成是事前程序參與用事前程序參與來補事後程序的不足第二個"},{"start":12315.99,"end":12326.056,"text":"其實也是多慮的各位委員可能不清楚其實稅務機關是很怕進入法院的當你的第二張稅單自動成為法院審理的範圍"},{"start":12327.745,"end":12352.163,"text":"那是代表什麼意思 就是說你只要加一張稅單之後 法案就會審這張稅單了你怕不怕 當然怕呀 我們稅務機關怕死法院了所以今天你要做一個稅單 它自動就會變成法案審理的範圍你覺得稅務機關事前會怎麼做 一定會非常謹慎現在二合三合 反正我就隨便做 做錯了 婦查書院慢慢再來改當事人很累 讓你撐啊 不是我撐啊"},{"start":12353.925,"end":12370.399,"text":"但是今天如果今天二合三合是自動成為法院審理的範圍也就是你馬上要報告法院說我二合三合增加了多少稅喔法官下一次開庭就會問這個東西喔哇 那你不千萬小心你自己難道送去給法院打臉嗎"},{"start":12371.883,"end":12387.549,"text":"所以坦白說 如果了解心理學的話你就會知道其實社會機關以後做二合三合絕對會非常的小心而不像現在這麼隨便這對當事人的權利事實上絕對會增加不會縮水這個叫做心理學"},{"start":12388.72,"end":12410.432,"text":"如果瞭解稅務人員的心理的話 這個委員可以去訪查一下說那以後會不會隨便二合三合他沒有把握不敢隨便二合三合啦 為什麼因為接下來就不是面對自己的人 而是直接面對法官當然很可怕 所以就會避免二合三合胡亂開單的情況下沒有足夠慎重 沒有足夠把握 他其實不會輕易出手"},{"start":12411.452,"end":12436.161,"text":"這反而對納稅權利是一種保障有時候法律不是看形式而是要更深刻考慮心理學之後瞭解人的行為的反應才會真正看到法律實效的部分另外一個問題那因為時間有限很多地方我可能沒辦法回答我如果有時間我用書面補答我回到那個協力優跟不知正己罪今天可能我要再特別補充說明"},{"start":12437.751,"end":12461.753,"text":"首先我覺得我們台灣的稅法我個人一直覺得長期忽略的叫做租稅公平的維護什麼叫租稅公平的維護就是說當台灣有很多納稅人誠實的納稅人乖乖的守法但有不誠實的納稅人想盡辦法不守法鑽各種法律的好處的時候"},{"start":12462.898,"end":12489.136,"text":"我們稅法上必須有一個非常確保租稅公平的機制讓其他誠實乖乖角色的人的平等權不會受到侵害其實德國憲法案有一個判決我覺得我非常的同意就是說如果稅法的設計沒有一個機制確保這個稅法能夠公平的執行也就是只有傻瓜誠實的人受拘束只要他聰明都沒事"},{"start":12491.192,"end":12517.322,"text":"那這個就是在欺侮誠實納稅人的平等權這反而才是違憲的法律因此怎麼讓稅法能夠好好的確保租稅公平在德國的稅制設計當中不管是從實體法程序法到訴訟法他們都非常關心這個事情我覺得我們今天討論這個問題也以過去我們稅法界討論這個問題一直忽略其他納稅人的平等權也應該受到保障而不是只有看到那個案子爭議當事人的"},{"start":12518.763,"end":12542.89,"text":"全力那其他納稅人乖乖繳稅也不必忙必忙的人呢他的平等權難道就該被犧牲嗎因此從這個角度出發我們才談出為什麼協力優那麼重要因為協力優就是促使納稅優人必須誠實的把他手上資料拿出來讓稅務機關能夠查核讓租稅的公平真正能夠確保"},{"start":12544.485,"end":12568.436,"text":"而這樣的協力股 如果因為納稅人有涉及到犯罪的行為 所以他就沒有協力股了那各位 那誰剩下 協力股剩下誰有就善良老百姓有協力股 那不善良的人呢 他就沒有協力股善良的納稅人為了遵守協力股 要付出很多成本可能因為一時的不小心 他還要被處罰可是壞蛋說 我沒有協力股"},{"start":12569.827,"end":12595.523,"text":"那警務協議是在教訓納稅善良的人民嗎這是在教訓好人的嗎所以回到原點就是說為什麼在德國的聯邦憲法法院在一個判決當中他特別提到不治政己罪雖然是法治國的核心但是如果他跟其他的法律為了確保公平所設立的協議有所衝突的時候"},{"start":12596.947,"end":12621.473,"text":"並不能直接火定協力義務而是兩者之間要找一個平衡的協調而不是直接火定協力的存在因此本法才會參考德國的規定做一些比較折衷的設計當然時間可能快到我最後再特別強調一下我們這個法律的設計其實如果還有疑慮的話未來可以"},{"start":12622.327,"end":12637.38,"text":"解決可能一律有一個很簡便的方法因為剛才我們陳教授提到可以把划緩的程序學歐盟德國的制度整個交給刑事程序由法院來做處罰但這個後果要想清楚我常常講一句話叫做 夜宮好龍 龍來的會嚇死"},{"start":12644.29,"end":12664.748,"text":"為什麽呢 它代表所有的划環都走刑事程序 這代表什麽 代表稅務機關就變成警察機關 而且檢察機關就要介入了那所以你真的喜歡這樣的制度嗎 想清楚 不要看德國說我規定對當事人很好 那整個刑事程序化真的是我們要的嗎"},{"start":12665.819,"end":12674.727,"text":"另外如果擔心協力義務繼續保留可能對納稅人涉及滑款的事件可能比較會產生問題我會建議"},{"start":12678.359,"end":12703.346,"text":"如果我們在證明標準上面 把本稅跟划緩的證明標準區隔開來也就是本稅的證明度 可以因為納稅委婉協議而降低但是在划緩的時候 基本上還是必須嚴格遵守我們處罰的證明標準其實在證明標準當中做區隔 很多的問題就可以迎刃而解那現已時間啦 很多觀點無法表達我有空再用書面來做補充 謝謝"},{"start":12707.114,"end":12709.936,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位在座的與會先進,大家好很榮幸受邀來參加今天的公聽會"},{"start":12730.7,"end":12752.215,"text":"我現在擔任的是台北律師公會行政法委員會的主委那這個案子的草案其實是在行政訴訟當中進行所以我覺得我來今天參與會議良多那我首先要先講我是大體上我是支持也是肯定所有為這個草案付出的努力的學者跟前輩"},{"start":12752.955,"end":12762.76,"text":"因為萬年稅單的問題存在已久從解決萬年稅單這件事情本身上來看我覺得這個草案就值得肯定、值得推動"},{"start":12764.123,"end":12790.197,"text":"這是我首先要表達我的一個立場基本立場但是我還是要說一下我對這些議題當中特別有幾個議題的想法那我還是先回來萬年稅單那這麼多的學者專家付出的努力要解決萬年稅單的問題就是過去我們實務上在行政訴訟當中在稅務案件當中呢當事人就是為了解決這個稅務案件然後提起行政訴訟"},{"start":12791.218,"end":12791.378,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12822.359,"end":12836.352,"text":"我還是讓你有一次再為重新處分的權利用白話講就是這樣你再回去想一想該怎麼去計算吧你還有機會再做一次處分那這樣子官司就打不完了我花了三年打完一個官司"},{"start":12837.833,"end":12862.788,"text":"行政機關在花半年調查再給我一個好可能比原來的金額少了10萬或20萬我還是不服我再打三年三年三年又三年可以打多少個三年啊這就是為什麼是萬年稅單所以我過去在演講也好或是研討會也好我講說希臘神話有一個薛西弗斯的故事就他得罪了觸怒了宙斯所以他被"},{"start":12864.417,"end":12874.46,"text":"招數的處罰就是他要推一顆巨大的石頭到山頂上每次成功了之後重來一次成功重來一次那為什麼要處罰我們的人民呢"},{"start":12876.315,"end":12902.241,"text":"這個是在神話當中認為是一種最殘忍的一種處罰的方式可是我們的司法實務當中卻用萬年稅單的方式讓這個情況存在了數十年之久所以我還是要再次感謝參與這個草案的學者專家付出了非常大的努力這一點我是百分之百的高度的肯定跟支持不過我想在這個地方啊我只講兩個問題就是萬年稅單跟不自證己罪"},{"start":12903.788,"end":12922.823,"text":"萬年稅單我們如果可以透過這一次的修法解決那我覺得是最好最好的方式因為任何人如果今天是你打官司你都不需要遇到說要重來重來兩次三次沒有人會希望雖然律師可能會因此而多賺一些律師費可是我覺得這太不人道了而且賺這個錢說真的良心過意不去"},{"start":12923.624,"end":12943.799,"text":"好那我們今天認為說不要有萬年稅單存在是一個共識那怎麼做到呢我認為如果到了行政訴訟的階段最好最好的狀況就是法院一錘定音就告訴你說這個案子該繳多少該罰多少不要再去查了就到此為止那這個訴訟呢就符合我們憲法上保障人民訴訟權"},{"start":12945.16,"end":12959.545,"text":"最核心的就是及時而且有效的救濟到此為止拜託不要再折磨了其實國稅局的同仁有時候也很累你發回之後呢他又有義務要查他還會不能說他不查那查了之後呢大家再打一次官司"},{"start":12960.245,"end":12982.227,"text":"那真的是律師賺錢但是對當事人於心不忍我真的要這樣說所以最好的方式是怎麼樣在這個草案當中讓法官可以自為判決因為法官是最後最後一道防線嘛由他做的判決我相信國稅局尊重人民也會接受到此為止畫下的句點是最好的上上之策"},{"start":12983.268,"end":12999.844,"text":"不過我這邊要講一下我們今天利用這個難得的機會不妨思考一個問題行政訴訟除了稅務案件以外還有其他類型的案件有建築法規的有土地法規的有通傳的有勞工各方面的行政法院九成以上都設定處"},{"start":13001.355,"end":13020.53,"text":"為什麼可以測定處啊我好不容易打贏了官司你做錯了喔抱歉再去查一下查清楚一點可以再做一次處分我又要再打一次官司那為什麼稅務案件的萬年稅單會到其他的行政訴訟案件就不適用呢這法理難道不應該要擴及到其他的行政訴訟的類型嗎"},{"start":13022.071,"end":13047.573,"text":"好我再舉一個例子我們今天如果是民事的官司我跟盛老師打官司我說盛老師欠我錢我輸了我三審定業了我是不能夠重新再對他起訴一次那很嚴格很嚴格的我不是被法院要求我說欸 劉昌平你再想辦法查清楚一點再去告一次盛老師民事訴訟不可以刑事訴訟可不可以各位都看過美國的電影嘛如果我今天檢察官說今天某假殺了人"},{"start":13048.562,"end":13058.94,"text":"檢察官沒有辦法證明檢察官可以另外找再去查清楚以後再起訴他一次嗎不行吧要很嚴格很嚴格吧那為什麼行政訴訟可以"},{"start":13060.543,"end":13084.733,"text":"民事案件不行行事案件不行就是行政案件可以到今天為止我們注意到的是稅法上的萬年稅單可是其他的案件難道我們不需要一併關心檢討注意嗎這個我覺得以後我們有機會可以再來集思廣益第二個我想談一下這個不治政己罪原則為什麼要不治政己罪這個人是壞人他可能殺了人強盜"},{"start":13087.711,"end":13102.373,"text":"那為什麼我們不能讓他自證己罪呢按照一般的通說是來自於人性尊嚴是尊重人性尊嚴於是不讓他自證己罪這個先後順序我覺得必須要釐清好 第二點"},{"start":13103.722,"end":13116.826,"text":"剛剛有談到說是不是因為行事訴訟跟行政訴訟的性質不同所以行事訴訟我們百分之百承認不自證其罪但行政訴訟在某些情況下我們予以放寬那我就用拒絕證人權來做一個比較民事訴訟法307條有拒絕證人權這個是私人跟私人的問題"},{"start":13128.18,"end":13140.998,"text":"刑事訴訟法181條有不自認己罪的原則就是你可以不要去講對自己不利益的話好各位性質不同但是都是國家公權力的形式一個叫罰緩一個叫罰金"},{"start":13143.479,"end":13167.89,"text":"我們可以從文字上說它不同可是行政訴訟的罰款有時候是幾億幾十億幾百億或者一個停權處分可能讓一個公司營收下降或者是關門倒閉這個效果不亞於形式我們要從效果實質論出發不要再拘泥於那個文字一個是形式訴訟一個是行政訴訟兩者性質有所不同"},{"start":13168.885,"end":13183.883,"text":"好那我除了這個經文的比較之外我另外再問一個問題刑事訴訟這個殺人犯是殺了人家的兒子女兒可能是我們覺得十惡不赦那公益性豈不是更強那為什麼要保障他"},{"start":13184.969,"end":13186.23,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13207.79,"end":13207.81,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13224.634,"end":13249.291,"text":"我們可以宣誓到這個概念但是我們如果今天在文字的敘述上草案的文字敘述上讓人家誤認為說我退讓了我對於這個不制政舉行的原則我退讓了那會不會有法規範體系的衝突啊那我們要怎麼去跟我們的其他的當事人說行案你犯了罪但是這個可能會讓你去坐牢"},{"start":13250.196,"end":13250.416,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13266.974,"end":13282.152,"text":"好那最後再問兩個問題如果今天我們的草案按這樣的文字說明方式通過我真的很擔心那以後所有透過行政訴訟要去追徵的公法上金錢給付義務要不要比較辦理"},{"start":13284.383,"end":13309.846,"text":"如果稅是重要的公法上金錢給付義務那其他的公法上金錢給付義務要不要比照辦理因為我也覺得不公平啊最後剩30秒我再請各位一起思考一個問題這個問題我沒有答案先有人性尊嚴才有憲法憲法肯定人性尊嚴因此它有存在的重要性跟必要性如果是這樣的邏輯的話"},{"start":13312.028,"end":13336.913,"text":"人性尊嚴 憲法跟稅法我們今天怎麼去跟我們自己學法律的我自己啦 對不起 我自己說喔 那個在稅法上因為要保障誠實的納稅人所以呢 不治政級這個原則呢不要受到保障而應該退讓我認為不應該用這樣的方式可以用其他的方式但是這樣的文字敘述真的我們值得仔細再思考以上 謝謝"},{"start":13339.73,"end":13341.737,"text":"謝謝劉恆虎律師最後我們邀請黃耀輝黃教授請"},{"start":13361.914,"end":13380.549,"text":"主席 各位與會先進 大家午安很榮幸 也很高興受邀參加司法法制委員會的公聽會這是我第一次參加司法法制委員會公聽會我也是在場"},{"start":13382.33,"end":13401.915,"text":"參與的學者裡面唯一不是學法律出身的我是北商財稅系我在學校教財政學跟稅法還有一些其他的經濟科目那我準備了PowerPoint跟大家做簡單的說明首先就是這個"},{"start":13408.613,"end":13430.744,"text":"這次這個稅審法我簡稱稅務行政事件審理法我簡稱它叫做稅審法稅審法呢我們從它的立法宗旨跟背景可以看到第一個它的優點就是就是三面俱到它建構更專業效能符合國際趨勢的稅務行政訴訟制度想要徹底解決我們這個稅務紛爭這萬年稅單的問題然後也同時貫徹人民就納稅人權利的保障維護"},{"start":13438.628,"end":13439.248,"text":"公聽會．事由．事由"},{"start":13457.773,"end":13458.614,"text":"《稅務行政事件審理法草案》公職委員會公職委員會公職委員會公職委員會"},{"start":13476.366,"end":13480.41,"text":"總而主義的配套措施也提出了很多對行政法院的審理權限也給它擴大 讓它可以加上稅務審查官的專業的學法律的"},{"start":13500.871,"end":13501.912,"text":"法律需要一些財經訓練的人的溝通"},{"start":13518.348,"end":13531.449,"text":"在彌補法官在財經、會計、財務管理等方面的不足讓法官可以更有信心更具有專業的"},{"start":13533.384,"end":13558.76,"text":"通過審查官的協力幫助讓他可以做至為終極的判決可以減少將來這個稅務訴訟很大的社會成本然後在這個同時他也加強當事人的協力義務所以也不是說一面倒舉證責任落在稅金基金之外稅金納稅人就可以"},{"start":13561.401,"end":13561.561,"text":"公聽會委員："},{"start":13585.252,"end":13586.093,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13606.206,"end":13629.637,"text":"但是從學一個財政經濟學者的角度來看為什麼我個人是認為這個稅審法它重點應該還是要考量到說我們這邊是不是有政府有做到說保護這個資訊不對稱的弱勢者尤其就是納稅人在我們財政學福利經濟就強調就是說"},{"start":13631.557,"end":13647.685,"text":"政府透過保護資訊不對稱的弱勢或劣勢者可以增進社會福利所以納保法跟消保法其他的出發點都是一致的就是要保護消費者不完全進入市場的消費者跟保護面對稅法專業高強障礙的納稅人"},{"start":13655.869,"end":13683.344,"text":"有限程度的向納稅義務人傾斜來保護但是也必須要兼顧租稅的公平保障稅守所以這個當然也需要刻意相對的義務所以這個納保法是從福利經濟學的角度來看它是一大進步尤其那個21條本身把那訴訟標的增田主義改採總值總管主義這個是最大進步"},{"start":13684.882,"end":13705.45,"text":"但是確實需要透過我們這個稅審法來落實成為一套很健全的制度所以我們評論這個稅審法的出發點我們還是要看這個審理實務上是不是因為符合我們效力經濟訴訟效力的經濟的前提下來更平衡的 橫平的保護納稅所以"},{"start":13707.951,"end":13736.007,"text":"我們來看到第8條一開始提出它是行政訴訟法這個是特別法值得肯定第8條很明顯的可以破除萬年稅單這個是功德無量值得肯定第19條到24條落實種兒主義然後建構配套措施我們可以看到它具有一些橫頻的效果然後也可以減少一些經濟"},{"start":13737.108,"end":13740.812,"text":"第11到15條加強當事人協力的義務行政法院可以徹底解決紛爭的權限透過這個設計加上25條的審查官"},{"start":13761.973,"end":13781.332,"text":"這個很有助於法官將來可以做終極的自為判決這個也是功德無量所以非常肯定那第10條暫時權力保護制度這個部分就是很明顯的橫貧兼顧租稅保全與救濟時效這個也非常值得支持"},{"start":13781.952,"end":13782.793,"text":"律師代理範圍"},{"start":13805.962,"end":13814.319,"text":"條文是這樣規定說高等行政法院高等行政訴訟管轄之通常程序就是金額目前來講是大於40萬這個稅額"},{"start":13818.727,"end":13839.781,"text":"第一審稅務行政事件對當事人權益影響較大且具複雜性及專業性為保障當事人權利及促進訴訟應定應委任律師為訴訟代理這說明是這樣說但是這裡面有一些問題將來可以考慮做一些調整"},{"start":13840.461,"end":13841.161,"text":"促進訴訟的效率降低經濟成本"},{"start":13860.593,"end":13882.99,"text":"不需要在字面上太精簡結果造成誤會他的目的應該是希望能夠促進訴訟的經濟效力讓官司不要這樣對所有的當事人稅務機關納稅人或是法官構成很大的負擔而且這樣不斷的重複整個社會都負擔很大的成本所以這裡面當然"},{"start":13885.456,"end":13909.103,"text":"委任：強制委任律師為訴訟帶領這是出發點是善良的但是有一個問題就是說在資訊不對稱：是對納稅人不利的情況下這邊又要再增加原告經濟負擔的方式他必須再去找那個找委任律師不可那這樣的話呢"},{"start":13910.703,"end":13933.469,"text":"我們會變成說用透過增加納稅人負擔的方式來保障他這個好像手段跟目的之間並不是調和所以我建議是說可以參考像我們高等法院管轄第一審案件被告與審判中未經選任辯護人者審判者應指定公設辯護人或律師那是不是我們可以考慮就是說"},{"start":13934.569,"end":13936.551,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":13954.727,"end":13976.742,"text":"稅務審查官 協助法官一樣由這些專業的人來協助納稅人這樣是不是更能夠達到你本來就是要保障納稅的目的但是又希望他影響權益制度他為了省錢而不找律師另外一個部分就是我們參考納保法第18條這個稅務專業法庭的設計"},{"start":13978.943,"end":13980.745,"text":"法官必須有稅務專業 要取得專業法官的證明書"},{"start":14000.446,"end":14012.719,"text":"委任律師來擔任你的訴訟代理人那任何律師他不懂稅的也可以嗎那這樣的話納稅呢就是說你條文這麼規定我就找一個認識的律師這個律師什麼什麼會計什麼專業稅務都不懂那這樣會不會是不是變成"},{"start":14017.424,"end":14031.833,"text":"增加納稅人負擔又對納稅人毫無幫助所以比照稅務專業法庭對法官有專業的要求我們是不是也應該要求就是說委任這個律師必須也具有稅務專業的至少證書或證明他有這種"},{"start":14039.017,"end":14064.357,"text":"稅務專業能力的政見才能夠代表所以這邊我是希望司法院能夠在這邊再親近一點對於委任律師應該從平衡對稱的角度去做一些土偽設計如果政府要強制台灣要增加納稅義務人會傷害到納稅人造成這個"},{"start":14065.478,"end":14066.478,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":14091.189,"end":14097.775,"text":"所以在這個稅務基金法執行第21條還有所不足因為關稅的"},{"start":14101.478,"end":14120.345,"text":"行政訴訟 稅務基金法管不著所以法院應該再把納保法第18條衍生的行政專業法庭的設置辦法提到行政訴訟案件的定義範圍我這邊框起來剛剛忘記往前轉了"},{"start":14131.311,"end":14147.942,"text":"在這個框起來的這個部分這個是那個專業法庭設置及它的那個辦法裡面有提到就是它訴訟稅務行政訴訟事件包括這個國稅或地方稅之課稅等等等等這邊就對於我們這樣關稅屬於這個國稅這部分它就涵蓋進去了還其他經司法院指定應由稅務專業法庭審理之事件"},{"start":14158.429,"end":14178.889,"text":"這個部分的規定跟我們稅審法裡面所規定的這個事件的範圍基本上是涵蓋廣義稅法行政程序法120條程序重開事件等這個內容就兩個不是一致啦 並不是很一致啦我進入司法院 既然這個就是納保法衍生的一個特"},{"start":14180.05,"end":14180.53,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":14199.986,"end":14200.867,"text":"稅務行政事件審理法草案"},{"start":14217.188,"end":14238.824,"text":"包括在座法律的學者當你進到法律系的第一天的時候看到老師在講的那一課都是文言文的法律用語那時候一定第一個感想就是說哎呀好希望齁能夠把它寫成大家看得懂的白話文的法律用詞可是當我們進去久了之後呢一讀讀下去我們就變成"},{"start":14239.745,"end":14261.36,"text":"法律專業人習慣那條用語結果在寫成法律條文的時候我們就忘掉說當初高牆之外看不懂法律條文的人的痛苦所以像這個條文裡面我就看到保障納稅比如說它有講到說第一審撤銷訴訟細數中這個東西字典上查不到"},{"start":14268.325,"end":14283.987,"text":"也沒做任何解釋就假設全國老百姓都要懂這個只有法律人才懂的專業術語現在這個部分請盡量避免因為我們就是要保護納稅人納稅人在稅務方面就處於弱勢然後法律用語又對他"},{"start":14285.305,"end":14307.839,"text":"又是讓他更難理解這部份 保障來講是有所減損的所以我建議像這個可以找一些不是非法律的或是一些消保團體或是那些從他們的角度來看一下說我們這個法律用語有點讓人家沒辦法馬上看懂的"},{"start":14309.221,"end":14318.498,"text":"這個會變成一個保護納稅人的一個障礙無形的障礙那個需要我們外面的人外行人去發現所以希望這個部分能夠減少這個聲色的用語謝謝"},{"start":14322.383,"end":14347.263,"text":"好 謝謝黃教授 那麼所有學者專家及登記發言的委員均與發言完畢那審判會委員所提的書面意見我們也列入公報記錄那接下來進行政府機關代表的發言那如果發言完畢還要補充我們再看時間那麼目前請就所送的書面資料以外的部分做補充發言"},{"start":14348.664,"end":14371.596,"text":"主席這邊會逐一詢問列席的各機關有沒有要做補充發言的那如果需要補充發言的我們時間是5分鐘那今日提出書面的有4個機關我就逐一的詢問請問司法院有沒有要補充發言那個書面以外的話那個剛才我們幾位教授有提到說強制律師代理我們在這邊講還是在這邊好謝謝"},{"start":14375.649,"end":14386.682,"text":"因為我們今天的公聽會還是請副秘書長到發言台那後面如果有再補充發言的部分我們就來跟主席在這邊說明"},{"start":14389.486,"end":14411.403,"text":"主席各位專家學者謝謝讓我們有這個機會來做一個補充說明那麼詳細的東西如書面但是剛才我們幾位的專家學者有提到的一些問題那我在這邊再做一些補充第一點剛才幾位教授有提到說那這種稅務案件有沒有必要在金額不是很大的時候就強制律師代理那我跟各位報告我們目前這個規劃的第7條是強制律師代理是指那個"},{"start":14417.627,"end":14432.022,"text":"高等行政法院的高等行政訴訟庭的案件通常案件才強制律師代理那這個依照我們現在的規定不是40萬是150萬150萬因為高等行政法院的高等行政訴訟庭管轄的第一場案件是150萬以上"},{"start":14433.063,"end":14435.025,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會公聽會"},{"start":14452.943,"end":14469.009,"text":"關於委員提到說那個稅審官的部分稅審官的部分當然大家剛才有提到他的獨立性當然也有專家學者提到說以智慧財產法院技術審查官的操作經驗實際上面"},{"start":14471.07,"end":14492.028,"text":"撤銷智慧財產局的比例很高 剛才因為吳宗憲委員提到說 情形不一樣智慧財產案件 智慧財產局不是當事人 這邊我要跟各位報告事實上目前的智慧財產行政訴訟 智慧財產局就是當事人"},{"start":14495.379,"end":14516.26,"text":"自衛財產行政部曾經希望修正成自衛財產局不是當事人但是目前沒有通過所以目前他還是當事人那他派出來的技術轉換到法案去那撤銷剛才有看數據撤銷那個自衛財產局的那個處分的比例達1%那那個為什麼會這樣其實最重要的原因就是他"},{"start":14517.521,"end":14535.698,"text":"調派到那個智慧財團法院的時候是由法官在監督的那麼他法官不會輕易的容許說他的東西他沒有辦法說服法官的話完全照那個原機關的單位是法官不會接受那所以實際上操作並不太會有這種情形當然當然各位委員"},{"start":14536.858,"end":14541.72,"text":"移綠的這部分我們也會照委員的這件事因為我們現在的那個禁用管道就是包含包含的那個借調還有聘用那這個聘用的部分我如果大家有這個期待我們也是盡量盡量的會往這個管道去做聘用那聘用以後上一次的徵詢有一些委員在講說那跟我們現在的那個公務員法制跟考試院那個是不是相符"},{"start":14562.267,"end":14567.35,"text":"那我跟各位報告我們目前智慧財團法院就有一位是聘用的那他聘用他不是用那個檢建委的這個規定所以他沒有職等所以在現在的這個法制底下我們去聘用假設說有稅務人員所以那個這方面的會計專業人員來過來的話他不會有檢建委這些職等所以沒有現行法制上面的這個抵觸的這個問題"},{"start":14588.183,"end":14596.489,"text":"然後關於那個協力義務剛才很多的委員也有在做說明那除了我順便報告的這部分以外實際上面我們現在的實務上面的操作就是區分說稅額的確定部分稅額的確定部分協力義務是比較理所當然的但是在處罰的部分"},{"start":14609.858,"end":14637.467,"text":"那剛才有有很多的委員有提到有提到說今天假設這個處罰是跟著稅額的確定比如說他今天產生多少的稅額漏掉了那漏掉了以後那麼跟著跟著會確定補這些稅額以外另外再有處罰的話那麼以現在是合併合併審理的這些情形確實會先就稅額確定部分希望他進協力物希望他進協力物那那那個就"},{"start":14638.747,"end":14662.981,"text":"至於說你協力義務進了 那麼確定那個稅額了 那個稅額當然會跟著後面的這部分但是跟各位報告 至於說處罰的部分 處罰的要件不是只有稅額確定而已啊處罰要件還頒發故意過失 像這些的要件 那這些要件沒有什麼協力義務的問題你當然稅增機關 你要進 我要完全去取證責任 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王庭長他所提出來的書面報告我報讀了以後他是以那個時候智慧財產法院裡面的技術審查官當作例子從那邊"},{"start":443.945,"end":455.424,"text":"實際上面實踐的結果來看對於所謂稅審官的設置在實際案件上面會產生的影響那如果說啊未來是從公部門借調的話那"},{"start":457.034,"end":486.534,"text":"以前技術審查官從智慧財產局借調是由智慧財產局來加以考評這個事情可能等一下最後再請我們的司法院具體的回覆一下因為你如果說是從行政機關借調的是由行政機關負責考評的話那可能在稅審官的脈絡當中大家所擔心官官相互的現象可能會更強烈"},{"start":487.935,"end":511.375,"text":"現在有關於在智慧財產權法院裡面那一邊 汪庭長所指責這樣一個重要事務上面的運作未來在你們所設想上面的稅審官是不是會產生相同的運作可能最後也必須要請我們司法院具體回覆一下"},{"start":512.352,"end":529.197,"text":"那第18條的規定,剛剛也有學者指出來第18條的規定會不會讓稅審法接下來在所謂訴訟標的的認定上或是訴訟標的對於後訴訟所產生即判例客觀範圍、遮斷效的範圍上面產生一個過強烈"},{"start":535.632,"end":556.113,"text":"的效果那這個可能也是要請司法院特別予以斟酌特別是在18條第二項排除於時提出攻擊防禦方法奪回的例外規定那我當然可以看得出來這個稅審法可能是從民事訴訟法相關有關於於時提出攻擊防禦方法"},{"start":557.228,"end":573.008,"text":"司權校的例外規定把它列出來但是我相信我們的司法院副秘書長自己也是民事訴訟法的專家這個條文在民事訴訟的脈絡當中解釋所造成的困難所造成的爭論"},{"start":574.309,"end":590.128,"text":"在稅審法這次有沒有要解決還是打算把民事訴訟那邊所產生的困難跟爭論原封不動的 首諾罵罵直接到稅審法裡面以後繼續會產生相同的爭論那我就講一個最簡單的例子 你說"},{"start":592.249,"end":611.964,"text":"這個攻擊防禦方法的提出不慎言之訴訟這個時候如果與時提出的時候也不用駁回那在這裡所謂的不慎言之訴訟請問你們所採取的標準是什麼是絕對言之還是相對言之是絕對言之還是相對言之那可能一般非法律系的人聽不懂但我相信副秘書長絕對聽得"},{"start":613.825,"end":636.599,"text":"絕對聽得懂 什麼叫絕對言誌 什麼叫相對言誌在明日訴訟法那邊就已經吵翻天了你把相同有爭議的文字搬到這個地方來我在你們立法理由裡面我還是沒有看到你打算用絕對言誌還是用相對言誌那不管你用絕對言誌還是用相對言誌接下來連接的到羈絆立客觀範圍所產生這段效的範圍"},{"start":637.82,"end":662.037,"text":"兩者之間的因果關係是什麼我的意思是說如果是用不慎言之訴訟當作例外的理由來開放或者是說因此而被駁回的話那這個時候對於紀判例的客觀範圍所產生這段效的範圍兩者之間所存在的互動關係是什麼那這個恐怕也是司法院在整個立法的說明當中必須要予以補強的否則我可以預期"},{"start":663.138,"end":685.212,"text":"否則我可以預期大宋稅審法正式施行上路了以後在實務上面所造成的問題恐怕你們恐怕比你們今天所要解決的問題還要多那最後非常感謝在場所有的學者專家今天願意來參加這場公聽會你們寶貴的意見一定會成為我們接下來審理法案的時候重要的依據謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f80a2169e3396be92cdcaed4cc0e83fd5a12e40efa9c24bd37439805f15628b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"09:53:09 - 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統在致詞時表示，希望未來能夠發揮平衡南北，均衡臺灣發展的成效。南部院區從2012年開始籌備，以臺南高鐵特定區為基地，規劃從事農業生技、量子科技、淨零永續、人文社會等特色領域研究。我想請教院長，有沒有規劃在2027年南部院區全部完工之後考慮設立中彰投中部院區？"],["廖院長俊智：這是個很好的主意，我們目前確實沒想到中部院區這議題。既然委員建議，我們可以來討論。"],["陳委員秀寳：除了南北均衡發展之外，其實我們中部也很需要這樣子的量能來挹注。"],["廖院長俊智：我們希望全臺灣遍地都能開花。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我要跟您推薦，我們彰化高鐵特定區是非常適合的場地，交通非常方便。"],["廖院長俊智：我們會考慮。"],["陳委員秀寳：而且用地取得都沒有問題，希望在2027年南部院區完工告一個段落之後，可以很認真來研究在中部設中部院區，好嗎？謝謝院長。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：我再請教，南部院區最後的第三階段是量子科技實驗大樓，這部分110年核定的總經費是17.88億，在112年的時候增調了2.73億，在今年4月又增調5.22億，總計已經累計增加7.95億，來到了25.83億，但是工期要往後延1年，這個部分是因為執行力不好，還是有去檢討什麼原因造成的？"],["廖院長俊智：這個原因非常複雜，請總務處長解釋。"],["張處長剛維：委員好。因為是整個南部工程的量能跟環境部分，還有物價的上漲，所以我們原來的計畫在招標過程中受到這些影響，就比較不順利，但是我們爭取了預算經費重新編列了以後，已經順利的招標出去了，所以這個工程能夠往後是因為整個營建環境的影響。"],["陳委員秀寳：是因為招標的過程沒那麼順利喔！"],["張處長剛維：是的。"],["陳委員秀寳：中研院表示，你們在9月27日有辦理最有利標的評選，預計在今年底可以開工，但是你們這個決標公告有公告了嗎？"],["張處長剛維：是的，決標已經公告了。"],["陳委員秀寳：有公告了？"],["張處長剛維：在11月21日按照契約就會開工。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以今年年底是真的確定可以開工？"],["張處長剛維：是的，11月21日可以開工。"],["陳委員秀寳：有沒有把握可以如期如質，而且不會再追加預算的把工程來完成？"],["張處長剛維：是，目前我們預算爭取的部分，在安排上面已經有一些準備金，未來環境如果變化的時候，我們覺得應該是可以在這個預算裡面順利的執行。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝，是希望一切可以很順利，因為我們在等中部院區，所以南部這邊要趕快做一個段落，可以如期如質的完工。"],["張處長剛維：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。","接下來我想請教院長，你們在報告中有提到113年度有編列預算協助政府辦理臺灣人體生物資料庫計畫，總經費是兩億兩千多萬，請問院長，到9月底執行數是多少？執行率有多少？"],["廖院長俊智：請生物資料庫執行長。"],["楊代表人懷壹：是，報告委員，我是臺灣人體生物資料庫的代表人楊懷壹，很不好意思，我沒辦法很確切跟委員報告到目前為止的執行率是有多少，但是我可以回去把資料調清楚之後再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：那會後把資料送到我辦公室。","我們臺灣人體生物資料庫的計畫每年會進行2次的退出個案檢體及資料銷毀作業，今年是在5月及9月，因為現在可能也沒有數據，對不對？我要問今年退出的個案檢體資料及銷毀資料的件數，您也不知道……"],["廖院長俊智：會後跟委員報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：請您掌握了數據之後再給我。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實你們在網站上面有一些資料顯示了，在10月31日收案數是20萬3,026案，完成第一輪追蹤的是7萬3,640案，第二輪追蹤的是6,535案，但是去年的量有20萬人，今年到目前止只增加3,026案，你們自己覺得在募集的成效，你們……"],["廖院長俊智：好，我想目前最主要的工作並不是在增加收案數，而是在追蹤、訪問，這個部分也請楊懷壹來解釋。"],["楊代表人懷壹：是，誠如剛剛院長所解釋的，網站的資料可能我們還要再看一下，就我所知，每一年的追蹤個案數會達到3萬人以上，所以事後會再請同仁準備確切的資料跟委員報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個對於每個個案持續追蹤，你們應該大部分是2到4年不等的追蹤時間。"],["楊代表人懷壹：是的。"],["陳委員秀寳：但講到這個，我特別要分享一下個人的經驗，我有一次去做健檢的時候，護理師問我願不願意多抽2管血，來參加一個長期追蹤研究的專案，我覺得這應該是很重要的，我就答應了，我在抽血的時候有問護理師，那這樣抽血之後有沒有什麼影響？他看一看我的血管說，你這條血管有比較細，你多抽這兩管血之後，你的血管可能水不夠的話會扁掉，我嚇了一跳，我心想，好，我鼓足勇氣，我已經答應你要抽了，我就抽了，結果我抽到第二管的時候，就是多增加的這兩管血之後，我已經抽一管，在抽第二管的時候，護理師跟我說「你的血不太夠，那我看妳不要參加好了」。我心裡想，我已經抽了一管血了，你竟然這樣跟我說，我就覺得很浪費那個血。我意思是說，我們如何推廣讓民眾願意來參加這些研究？其實整個計畫我們是希望蒐集、儲存以及系統化各種健康數據，為未來的精準醫療，我們可以提供一些依據以及參考，但是如果護理師在蒐集的時候面對這些民眾、病人是用這種的態度，我會覺得這個要推廣有點難吧？"],["楊代表人懷壹：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為我自己遇到這樣的狀況，第一個我已經被你嚇過一次，他跟我說「血管會扁掉」，當然是會恢復，但是當下會覺得是有被嚇到，然後抽了一管之後，他跟我說「血不夠，那我們不要抽了」，是你放棄，不是我放棄。"],["楊代表人懷壹：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：我覺得這樣的態度對我們推廣，而且對民眾、對這些研究個案的認知，我覺得是很不利的。"],["楊代表人懷壹：是……"],["陳委員秀寳：針對我這樣的經驗分享，您覺得可以怎樣來加強？"],["楊代表人懷壹：是，謝謝委員。首先，要謝謝委員願意參加這樣非常重要的抽血活動，不曉得委員是不是參加Taiwan Biobank，但是我們一定會檢討。就我所知，我們的同仁在收案是有非常嚴謹的標準，包括事先他們要去簽同意書，是非常詳實的一份同意書；另外，我們也要求每位收案的同仁都要善盡說明的責任，而且在每一個過程都要遵循SOP。如果委員遭遇的是Taiwan Biobank，就是臺灣人體生物資料庫的同仁是有這樣的表現的話，我私底下再跟同仁……"],["陳委員秀寳：應該說在現場的護理師、護理人員對這個計畫的認知跟他們本身的態度，我覺得也是很重要的。當然那是醫護人員，他是醫院的員工，不是你們所屬轄下的，但是在這個部分，在配合的時候，我覺得他們的教育訓練也是很重要。"],["楊代表人懷壹：是的，我們會……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以這個部分，我希望可以提供你們一個檢討的方向。"],["楊代表人懷壹：謝謝委員，我們會加強，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。院長再請教，報導者雜誌在1月訪問中研院的研究團隊的時候說，中研院跟合作醫院來做台灣精準醫療計畫TPMI聯盟，預計在2024年會發表4篇的主論文到國際期刊，那我們是把目標放在自然系列的期刊，我們研究團隊希望能夠努力的讓世界看到臺灣對精準醫療研究的成果，那我想請教，到目前為主我們發表哪些論文到國際期刊？"],["廖院長俊智：好，據我瞭解已經submit出去4篇，現在正在審查當中，結果會怎麼樣，我們還不得而知，但是期待會有令人振奮的消息。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以已經照我們原來的計畫，我們已經發表了4篇？"],["廖院長俊智：不是發表，不是發表。只是我們……"],["陳委員秀寳：有送出去了？"],["廖院長俊智：對，有送出去了，還沒有發表，現在只是在審查。"],["陳委員秀寳：現在等審核？"],["廖院長俊智：對，等審查。"],["陳委員秀寳：喔，好。那我想請教一下，對於TPMI跟剛剛提到的臺灣人體生物資料庫有沒有關連？還是有什麼相關的合作計畫？"],["廖院長俊智：我們現在要開始兩邊不同的方式希望能夠整合，這邊請處長來回答。"],["陳處長建璋：學術處處長，陳建璋。TPMI跟Biobank是2個不同的計畫，因為TPMI也蒐集50萬人的一些資料，現在主管單位也希望TPMI將來這些資料，可以進入生物資料庫以供大家取用，現在在等衛福部的修法通過，中研院也在努力想辦法把TPMI的資料，可能……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以是可以一起來合作的？"],["陳處長建璋：是、是、是，現在在往這個方向努力。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。因為我時間到了，我快速的來講一下，我們的學術研究與人才培育項下，有聘僱護理人員211人，其實這些薪資以及勞健保費用合計經費是2億13萬，扣除勞健保跟勞退的費用之後，其實每個人的平均薪資應該大概有到6萬，平均年薪應該有79萬，但是研究助理及助理對這個薪資有意見，所以我想請院長，您要回去了解是不是有同工不同酬，或是敘薪不公的這個現象，請院長您了解一下之後，再一份報告給我的辦公室。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝院長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員的質詢，院長請回。","再來我們請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}},{"id":"156649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156649","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f5f7da4a277bd9bebcdcaed4cc0e83fd5fa6d04c6c4783344303c495862b7e09b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"09:43:23 - 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考用，還是？"],["雷所長祥麟：不好意思，我們應該更正的。"],["葉委員元之：不管怎麼樣，就算把2018年法國這項寫上去，或您剛剛講的有跟北京簽約，但我們看起來從2016年之後，新簽的約就是比較少。"],["雷所長祥麟：還有新的……"],["葉委員元之：還有新的都沒放上去？"],["雷所長祥麟：日本東洋文庫也剛剛簽約。"],["葉委員元之：都沒有放上去？"],["雷所長祥麟：很抱歉，我們應該更正。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係。大家都知道中研院的近代史研究所其實在研究中國近代史，像228、清代史都非常有名，而且很有成就。"],["雷所長祥麟：謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：我是希望可以增加這方面的研究，特別是兩岸可以多點交流，我認為450萬的旅費其實太少，對不對？"],["雷所長祥麟：是。"],["葉委員元之：應該多多交流！大家不用怕政治性的干擾，因為我們的總統已經宣示了，中華民國就是113年，跟過去民進黨認為中華民國只有75年的歷史觀不一樣！既然已經113年，我們應該要把失去的四十幾年補回來，到底這四十幾年發生什麼事？中研院可以透過研究告訴大家，我們也要建立我們中華民國的正統，否則現在中華民國前四十幾年的詮釋權全部在中國大陸那邊，萬一它用詮釋權跟國外做研究，然後說都是他們在對日抗戰，都是他們在表現怎樣怎樣，其實對臺灣、對我們中華民國也不利！"],["雷所長祥麟：我非常贊成委員所說的，您說得非常好，其實這也是他們有點不願意跟我們交流的原因！他們不希望近代史觀受到我們研究的影響……"],["葉委員元之：是啦！你也可以研究完之後，去跟他們以外的國家做交流嘛！"],["雷所長祥麟：是的、是的。"],["葉委員元之：讓其他國家知道……"],["雷所長祥麟：完全同意委員所說的，也謝謝您所說的。"],["廖院長俊智：這也是為什麼我們要加強對國際合作的原因，很大一部分就是為了這個。"],["葉委員元之：但問題是你們現在……我不知道你們在這一塊的研究還有沒有深入？有沒有去國外做交流？不知道！"],["廖院長俊智：非常深入！誠如我剛剛講的，最近幾年國際上跟臺灣在文史方面的合作，特別是近代史這一塊的合作興趣非常高，就像剛才雷所長講的。"],["葉委員元之：之前大家講到中國大陸好像就很害怕，既然賴總統已經講了中華民國是113年，那麼我覺得你們就放手去研究！"],["雷所長祥麟：是。"],["葉委員元之：告訴人家過去四十幾年我們……"],["廖院長俊智：我們一直都這樣做。"],["葉委員元之：對日抗戰或我們做了多少對世界有貢獻的事，宣揚中華民國的價值。"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["葉委員元之：這塊可以多做。"],["廖院長俊智：是，這個我們一直都在做。"],["葉委員元之：再來，因為中研院聲譽卓著，所以經常被冒名，最近有人冒用中研院名號，說治療糖尿病有新發現，還說這是中研院研究的，讓大家去買他的藥。這其實是個詐騙！可是臉書上這則詐騙訊息的宣傳效果非常好，像按讚數有7,745個，1,195個分享，比Taiwan Plus的貼文多非常多！這種詐騙的宣傳效果這麼好，不知道中研院看到類似這種詐騙宣傳，你們的處置方式是怎樣？"],["廖院長俊智：我們有請法制處與智財處做很完整的處理，請處長說明。"],["邱處長文聰：委員好，我是智財處處長。針對這類型詐騙，我們有的處理方式除了直接通報鄰近派出所外，也在我們自己的網站上公告，希望能夠讓可能潛在的受害民眾知道這是一種詐騙。但這種情況確實層出不窮……"],["葉委員元之：層出不窮？大概平均一個月有幾件？"],["邱處長文聰：沒有到一個月幾件。之所以講層出不窮，是因為中研院有很多新技術，都有可能變成……"],["葉委員元之：大概一年幾件？"],["邱處長文聰：一年我們大概會遇到三、四、五件。"],["葉委員元之：三、四、五件？除了報案之外，就只在網站上公告？"],["邱處長文聰：因為受害人是民眾……"],["葉委員元之：我請問一下，像剛剛講的案子，後來處理的方式是怎樣？"],["邱處長文聰：我們的方式是在……"],["葉委員元之：報警以後呢？抓到了嗎？"],["邱處長文聰：雖然報警了，但被害人並不是中研院，被害人是民眾，所以我們也跟民眾聯繫，請他們提供詳細的被詐騙資料，畢竟被詐騙的資料不在中研院手上。"],["葉委員元之：中研院當然沒被詐騙，中研院沒有去買那個藥，但中研院的名號……"],["邱處長文聰：商標被冒用……"],["葉委員元之：所以中研院也是受害者。"],["邱處長文聰：這部分我們有處理。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼處理？"],["邱處長文聰：我們向公平會舉發，舉凡會產生不實廣告的問題……"],["葉委員元之：類似這種案子只會越來越多，我建議法制處應該要擬定SOP，看看該怎麼做，而且你們也要對外宣傳……"],["邱處長文聰：是，這個我們都……"],["葉委員元之：除了放在網站上之外……可能看你們網站的人不多，然後也不免疏漏，剛才近代所的情形就是這樣。所以是不是可以用更積極的方式讓大家不要受騙？"],["邱處長文聰：我們一收到民眾的來電詢問……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得你們要再研究一下。"],["邱處長文聰：因為有些民眾會先來詢問我們，我們第一時間就告知這可能是詐騙，提醒他們。"],["葉委員元之：OK，謝謝。"],["邱處長文聰：謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：院長，上次你來的時候我有問你，陳建仁院長現在在中研院，請問他還開心嗎？最近他本來要去ECFA當特使，後來又不能去，他心情有受影響嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我相信……"],["葉委員元之：你有遇到他嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：偶而在院裡面會看到他的背影。"],["葉委員元之：背影？"],["廖院長俊智：他通常都會很忙，跑來跑去，所以我想他的生活應該非常愉快在做研究，因為研究是他最想要做的工作。他一直再三重申，他是研究員……"],["葉委員元之：他沒辦法去ECFA，心情有沒有受到影響？"],["廖院長俊智：我不清楚。"],["葉委員元之：沒問他？"],["廖院長俊智：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，院長請回。","再來我們請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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廖院長,你身為這樣一個重要的一個角色,你對於目前的"},{"start":333.757,"end":336.738,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":356.465,"end":357.826,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":378.121,"end":390.212,"text":"新的核能的問題哈林討論在問到裡面前後都是非常的不一致所以我們才是希望你們這些的建言用科學的證據能夠來說服我們現在的職長你像魏徵一樣你是像魏徵對不對這個技術面的討論事實上已經開始了那這個我們的角色這中央研究院的角色是提供技術科學層面的建言"},{"start":401.843,"end":407.924,"text":"但是那院長你會看到執行的成本你會發現你的建言很顯然是被當成耳邊風而且我還要特別提出來好吧那我們就看看下次我看到你的時候那個討論到底到了個什麼樣的程度就譯如我上次問你的時候你告訴我民間的單位可能也會想要來投入我們這個巨蛋燃金的這個部分但是"},{"start":428.288,"end":433.37,"text":"但是還是有很大的距離我還是要因為時間的關係我們還是問一下這是跟中研院有關聯的因為有關於對不起我們看一下就是你們特別提到的這個風電的部分為什麼要特別提出這個問題呢因為你們在這個有個非常著名的natural portfolio裡面特別提到"},{"start":444.733,"end":448.814,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案。况此外﹖即使有這麼好的研究出來﹖可是很顯然我們到目前為止只是研究發現但是我們在我們整個環境的改造上面並沒有做出任何的一個改善這是我覺得最遺憾的地方"},{"start":468.379,"end":497.15,"text":"中央研究院不缺所謂的研究成果但是研究成果已經告知了我們的政府之後其實並沒有被好好的採用好 我們先來看看下面一個有關AI的浪潮這個中央研究院也釋出這個AI的一個模型但是過去呢曾經有點出錯因為你們用了太多的Database裡面都是來自於中國的所以以至於你所輸入的因為Database都是來自中國的資料比較多所以目前來說的話你們就迅速的下降我想了解目前以大家逛上一個AI"},{"start":497.93,"end":499.011,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":517.008,"end":518.969,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。netesi,"},{"start":534.957,"end":556.476,"text":""},{"start":556.916,"end":575.892,"text":"三萬這個部分如果你只是在發展這個語言的模型跟優化的話我覺得對於所謂的資料的一個建構如果沒有同等量的來去做的話你看目前為止只有0.05這樣如何能夠讓全世界能夠再一輸進去即使有這麼好的一個模型輸進去的話你呈現出來的沒有足夠的我們台灣的這個的語言這是一個非常遺憾的事情"},{"start":580.816,"end":587.904,"text":"我們確實有在這方面努力但是誠如有人講這努力的還不夠我們還會繼續往前走我覺得0.05%別人是16%如果我們能夠進步到5%把這些的部分裡面弄過來的話起碼我們目前正是努力這個方向沒錯"},{"start":598.717,"end":598.837,"text":"院長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":153,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時33分）謝謝召委，我們是不是請院長？"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：柯委員早。"],["柯委員志恩：院長早。我想延續洪孟楷委員的能源問題，因為你目前是國家氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人，大家其實都非常期望全國學術的良心，在能源的政策上面，應該要給我們當權者一些最具有科學良心的建議，因為你是橫跨蔡政府跟賴政府的，所以有很多的研究，還有很多的方向是持續在進行的，我想你一直不斷地說過2050淨零排碳依照現有的技術其實很困難達到的，沒有錯吧，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：沒錯，是。"],["柯委員志恩：我想你在蔡政府曾經提出「淨零5支箭」，其中去碳燃氫的技術，我想蔡總統是非常讚賞，而且也指示中研院可以跟台電共同合作，我知道你們也編了預算，因為我們要審預算，所以這個部分一定要問得很清楚，但不管是怎麼樣，你看這項技術以天然氣為原料，我們未來勢必要更仰賴天然氣，但是若我們要增加更多的天然氣，我就要問了，我們還有更多的空間可以來興建天然氣接收站跟儲存槽嗎？這會不會跟我們減碳的目標有所牴觸呢？"],["廖院長俊智：減碳倒是不會，而更依賴天然氣，這要看我們用多少占比，假如說我們有其他的再生能源，這樣的話，我們對天然氣的依賴度就不會增加；假如說沒有其他再生能源，那恐怕我們未來……"],["柯委員志恩：天然氣是占比最大的，現在目前為止，我們希望達到50%。"],["廖院長俊智：是的，沒錯。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你看這還是有一些成本的問題，我剛剛為什麼會特別問到這個？因為太陽光電已經到處在搶地，這當然跟我們的國家政策有關。我們往下來去看，我們整個建置的成本，過去來講，我們希望能夠變成商用，但是你看看，誠如院長所說的，如果你每小時要生產40公斤的氫氣廠的話，我們要投入3億；120公斤要9億，如果你的設置要商業化運轉，你每小時需要花費1,500公斤的話，你要投入1,000億，你覺得光是憑我們臺灣政府本身來說，有辦法做到嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這些數字可能是用現今的技術或是很粗略的估計，就是為什麼我們要投入技術研發來降低這些成本……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你看你114到117，我們現在投入的總經費是12.5億，那中研院就要承擔10億元，這是事實吧！"],["廖院長俊智：但是這其中大部分是用來購置5 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院長你講到重點啊節電是大家過去五年十年都一直宣傳隨手關店隨手關店根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的台灣最強大腦"},{"start":391.077,"end":417.64,"text":"總統根本不需要做這件事情你已經承認了過去兩三年大家都在做那為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事總統主持所有部會首長一次排開到最後得出的結論不是減少火力發電不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗的排碳來源而是大家在節點電啊隨手關燈啊不要浪費能源啊"},{"start":418.902,"end":442.236,"text":"會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情沒有對症下藥我想這應該是先從這個全民意志開始然後漸漸的就會觸及到一些所以您覺得過去到現在我們還沒有全民意志大家都還不知道節電的重要性倒不是就是說還有加強的空間我這樣質詢其實凸顯什麼我想您是聰明人"},{"start":445.39,"end":466.418,"text":"通顯科學方法做實驗也好或是任何你沒有看到問題不去解決問題面對問題你只想著旁支錯節我沒有說這兩個是衝突的喔減碳不要火力發電減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇"},{"start":467.378,"end":485.205,"text":"二、核能絕對不是取代再生能源,核能是要取代火力發電,讓排碳大的降低一點,再生能源持續成長。所以,發展核能也好,或是美國現在重啓核能,跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的。核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電,是吧?是的。"},{"start":488.467,"end":515.745,"text":"您是院長我期待最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷只是死抱政治意識形態的話我覺得台灣會很危險跟委員報告這些都在委員會裡面就開始陸續討論我也分了七組現在分組開始討論因為我時間有限我再另外一個問題"},{"start":516.886,"end":519.55,"text":"今天我看到是說我們的院士到目前為止有298位"},{"start":521.718,"end":550.092,"text":"那研究員的部分就是就我的資料是1015位但是其中研究人員過去到現在大家一直強調是說研究人員好像沒有法制化會讓大家覺得不夠透明為什麼這樣講呢因為研究員有分副研究員研究員特聘研究員那請教到目前為止1015研究人員裡面我們特聘研究員的人數有幾位"},{"start":551.132,"end":558.119,"text":"請人事主任回答我們特聘研究員有九十幾位九十幾位九十幾位是幾位"},{"start":559.58,"end":586.169,"text":"連主任來都沒有辦法精確的回答是99位好 院長本時候怎麼突然問這個問題從過去立法院在105年106年都有曾經關心過就是因為我們當然人才要馬而好一定要馬而吃草這個我完全同意我們一定要尊重人才的招聘我們也希望給更好的待遇那但是你們在給我們的這個人事費用裡面"},{"start":586.969,"end":612.567,"text":"你只有人事維持的人事費總共一大筆28億27億28億的經費連同你另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億你光中研院一年100多億的預算你有一半都是用在人才相關我覺得人才相關沒有問題但重點在於是人才的給予有沒有一致的公平性以及法制化以及標準"},{"start":613.372,"end":641.332,"text":"我們院裡面的深等考核都有非常完整的一個制度在各級都有很嚴格的審查所以這個我們已經行之有年了是但是到目前為止外界之前因為有一些比較眾所矚目的人才去變成是我們的特聘研究員的時候大家就會懷疑說他的月薪是不是一個月50萬60萬等等的那我們大家外界就會好奇啊"},{"start":642.177,"end":659.16,"text":"我們院裡面的所有的這個升等考核陳若剛才講的所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎?欸不是是啊本期現在在講就是說99位的特聘研究員裡面待遇有高有低而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到"},{"start":659.881,"end":683.835,"text":"那這樣子會不會就讓外界因為過去其實不是我第一次講我相信之前105年106年就已經有委員在教育委員會裡面有提相關的提案認為是說應該要透明化法治化那這是有一定的標準那這是誠如剛才這個委員講的就是人才我們要跟國際競爭那國際上這個高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣"},{"start":684.355,"end":701.372,"text":"不可能說所有的大學教授都一樣的薪水。院長,但是我的意思是說還是要有標準啊。否則的話這樣子我們怎麼能夠認定是說到底你今天,你看剛剛99位特聘研究員裡面,你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣。"},{"start":702.272,"end":726.03,"text":"到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的一個薪資特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資你的標準還是沒有啊這也是過去讓外界還是持續覺得說沒有透明的主要原因啊院長過去有提過說希望能夠法治化我們事後再跟委員說明好這有沒有可能法治化"},{"start":726.63,"end":729.193,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":743.73,"end":767.991,"text":"人種的專業家計表9的規定單位。沒關係你相關的資料可以給本席我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法治化的部分以及讓外界覺得是說你一筆28億人事費用一千多人但是他到底的一個這個薪資大約是怎麼樣這一定要釐清好不好謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢院長請回好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":83,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時20分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請廖院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長好。院長，這個會期是第一次見到你。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣最強大腦都在這邊，非常好！"],["廖院長俊智：不敢當，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我們還是就教相對專業的問題，因為我認為中研院就是本於科學、本於專業去做一些判斷。最近國際很關心，剛剛當選的美國總統川普在競選期間可能都有一直強調所謂淨零碳排等等的相關議題，他有他自己的獨特見解，包括明年1月就任之後，他可能又要再退出巴黎氣候協定。院長，現在大家都關心2050淨零碳排以及相關的方向，你認為川普的上任對於全球的淨零碳排政策有什麼樣的影響？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這是全世界非常關注的問題，假如依川普所言，他要再度退出巴黎協定的話，確實會對2050年的淨零目標有一些衝擊，國際上也必須為這樣的狀況做出相對的反應，這是全世界所有學研界，包括政治界人物都非常關心的，而且希望在短期內能夠有所結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為不可諱言的，美國是老大哥。"],["廖院長俊智：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：你說在政治、經濟、工業相關方面，美國都還是有執牛耳的地位。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果美國總統要退出巴黎氣候協定的話，有沒有可能連帶的讓臺灣的能源政策也會受到一些波及？尤其是美國曾經在10月15日又講到，其實他們針對淨零碳排有滿多的努力，包括他們要重啟關閉的核電廠，因為要因應電力需求快速成長，並且減少碳排放。院長，你自己怎麼看？"],["廖院長俊智：我覺得這是美國多方面想解決淨零碳排的問題，但是以川普的角度，他又不希望影響美國的經濟，他們所做的努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以經濟也好，或者是碳排的能源提供也好，其實都是人類需求要尋求的一個平衡點，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在國內，我們在兩個禮拜前也有看到，就像中火的事件，中火二期的環評案，民進黨過去承諾說要關一個燃煤廠、增加一個燃氣廠，但是現在增加燃氣廠，可是燃煤廠還沒有要廢除，直到卓榮泰院長現在才承諾，2032年等4部燃氣廠機組完成之後，才來檢討燃煤廠要不要存廢。某種程度上，燃煤也好，燃氣也好，其實都是火力發電。院長，我覺得能源議題是沒有任何政治立場，而是都是需求，因為大家都要用電，現在核三廠2號機歲修的情況，其實全臺已經實質進入非核家園，而看到數據來講，日常的時間火力發電高達八成以上，因為我們現在再生能源還沒有20%，而如果到夜晚期間，太陽能沒有發電、風力又減弱的時候，更是高達九成，甚至九成五都是火力發電、火力全開。之前2022年中研院也有提供相關淨零碳排的資料，我們說全臺的碳排有80%、90%來自能源部門，也就是所謂的火力發電，這樣臺灣不就是在走世界潮流的倒退路嗎？我們這樣子怎麼有辦法能夠達到淨零碳排？2050越來越近，每過一天，就離2050更近一天，我們希望淨零碳排，但實際上我們的能源政策卻是背道而馳。"],["廖院長俊智：容我解釋一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，請說。"],["廖院長俊智：有關火力發電，燃煤、燃氣雖然都排碳，可是燃煤的排碳量比燃氣高出約兩倍，所以在現階段把燃煤轉成燃氣仍然是全世界各國盡力、努力的一個目標，就像我們在大海中航行，沒有辦法走點到點最短的距離，還要看路徑當中有沒有颱風、有沒有其他危險的物質、有沒有避開別人的經濟領域或是人家的領土，所以並不是簡單的點到點的直線距離，是這樣的概念，雖然大家的方向都是要在2050年達成淨零，可是燃煤的排碳遠比燃氣的排碳多很多。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你突然搖身一變，變成航海專家了。"],["廖院長俊智：倒不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席以為我們在討論的是能源政策。院長，本席好奇地請教，就連賴總統都召開國家氣候變遷對策委員會，並且說第一波也要把中研院納入所謂的節電指標。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們講你花大錢省小錢，明明是火力發電全開來一直排碳，結果我們現在要求的是中研院也好、工研院也好，來，大家來節電指標，妄想從公部門擠出一點電，沒有釜底抽薪，那是治標不治本啊！我想請教，距離第二次氣候變遷對策委員會也已經快一個月了，中研院有收到指示明年的KPI、還是明年的指標，到底中研院具體是要節電多少？有沒有？"],["廖院長俊智：我們是沒有收到具體的指標，不過我們已經主動在做2、3年了，我們每年都有節電比賽，而且我們的……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，院長講到重點了！節電是大家過去5年、10年都一直宣傳的隨手關燈、隨手關電，根本不需要總統開一個國家氣候變遷對策委員會告訴我們這些聰明的臺灣最強大腦，總統根本不需要做這件事情，你已經承認了，過去2、3年大家都在做，為什麼我們的氣候變遷對策委員會煞有其事，總統主持、所有部會首長一字排開，到最後得出的結論，不是減少火力發電、不是減少你們報告裡面講的最大宗排碳來源，而是大家再節點電、隨手關燈，不要浪費能源，會不會覺得總統用這樣子煞有其事的事情，沒有對症下藥？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這應該是先從全民意志開始，漸漸地就會觸及到委員剛剛講的一些問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以您覺得過去到現在，我們還沒有全民意志，大家都還不知道節電的重要性？"],["廖院長俊智：倒不是，而是還有加強的空間。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我這樣質詢其實凸顯了什麼？我想您是聰明人，凸顯用科學方法，做實驗也好，或是任何方式，你沒有看到問題，不去解決問題、面對問題，你只想著旁生枝節，我沒有說這兩個是衝突的，減碳、不要火力發電、減少火力發電跟節電完全不衝突，就如同我們過去一直強調核能只是一個選擇，而核能絕對不是取代再生能源，核能是要取代火力發電，讓排碳大的降低一點，再生能源持續成長，所以發展核能也好，或是美國現在重啟核能，跟他們再生能源是完全不衝突的，核能是要降低碳排多的火力發電，是吧？"],["廖院長俊智：是的，那這些……"],["洪委員孟楷：您是院長，我期待的最強大腦是提供科學專業的數據以及判斷。"],["廖院長俊智：是的，沒錯，這個我們都在想。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果連總統都沒有辦法獲得這種專業的數據跟判斷，只是死抱政治意識形態的話，我覺得臺灣會很危險。院長，您認為呢？"],["廖院長俊智：跟委員報告，這些都在委員會裡面開始陸續討論，也分了7組，現在分組開始討論這些重大的議題。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，因為我時間有限，我再提另外一個問題。"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天我看到的我們的院士，到目前為止有298位，研究員的部分，就我的資料是1,015位，但是其中研究人員，從過去到現在大家一直強調研究人員好像沒有法制化，會讓大家覺得不夠透明，為什麼這樣講呢？因為研究員有分副研究員、研究員、特聘研究員，請教到目前為止，在1,015位研究人員裡面，特聘研究員的人數有幾位？"],["廖院長俊智：請人事主任回答。"],["周主任佩芳：特聘研究員有九十幾位。"],["洪委員孟楷：九十幾位是幾位？連主任來都沒有辦法精確地回答。"],["周主任佩芳：目前是99位。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，本席為什麼突然問這個問題？過去立法院在105年、106年都有曾經關心過，當然對人才而言，要馬兒好，一定要讓馬兒吃草，這個我完全同意，我們一定要尊重人才招聘，我們也希望給更好的待遇，但是你們在給我們的人事費用裡面，你只有人事維持人事費，總共一大筆，即27億、28億的經費，連同另外一個學術研究跟人才培育46億，光中研院一年一百多億的預算，有一半都是用在人才相關，我覺得用在人才相關沒有問題，但重點在於人才的給予有沒有一致、公平性、法制化以及標準。"],["廖院長俊智：我們院裡面的升等考核都有非常完整的制度，在各級都有很嚴格地審查，我們已經行之有年了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是！但是到目前為止，因為之前有一些比較眾所矚目的人才，變成是我們的特聘研究員時，大家就會懷疑他的月薪是不是一個月50萬、60萬等等，外界就會好奇啊！"],["廖院長俊智：我們院裡面所有的升等考核，誠如我剛才講的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以特聘研究員的待遇都是一致嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，就是每一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！本席現在在講的就是99位的特聘研究員裡面，待遇有高有低，而我們沒有辦法從預算書裡面看到，這樣子會不會就讓外界覺得不透明？這不是我第一次講，我相信之前105年、106年就已經有委員在教育及文化委員會裡面有提相關提案，認為是應該要透明化、法制化，有一定的標準。"],["廖院長俊智：誠如剛才委員講的，人才我們要跟國際競爭，國際上高階人才的待遇也都是每一個人不一樣，不可能所有的大學教授都一樣的薪水。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我的意思是還是要有標準啊！否則的話，我們怎麼能夠認定你今天到底……你看剛剛99位的特聘研究員裡面，你也講了每一個特聘研究員的待遇都不一樣，到底為什麼特聘研究員A可以拿到這樣的薪資，特聘研究員B拿到這樣的薪資？你的標準還是沒有啊？"],["廖院長俊智：有，我們有標準。"],["洪委員孟楷：這也是過去讓外界仍持續覺得沒有透明的主要原因。院長，過去有提過希望能夠法制化……"],["主席：院長，是不是後續將書面資料，或者是當面再跟洪委員說明，好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，我們事後再跟委員說明。"],["主席：因為已經超過時間了。"],["洪委員孟楷：這有沒有可能法制化？"],["廖院長俊智：事實上，我們本來已經是法制化了。"],["洪委員孟楷：只是沒有辦法對外說，是不是？"],["廖院長俊智：不是、不是，這個本來都是我們的法規，特聘研究員的法規叫什麼？"],["周主任佩芳：研究人員的專業加給是依人總的專業加給表九的規定辦理。"],["主席：因為已經超過時間了，後續再給洪孟楷委員書面或是口頭報告，好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，OK。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，相關的資料可以給本席，我不是要探索哪一個研究員的薪資，我現在只是要確認過去因為一直有提法制化的部分，以及讓外界覺得你一筆28億的人事費用，一千多人，到底他的薪資待遇是怎麼樣，這一定要釐清，好不好？謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，院長請回。目前現場有3位委員，我們確定一下上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。","現在請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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參與，所以我想了解一下，在這個知識體系的建設你們其實做了不少的貢獻，但是關於知識體系的運用，不知道院內在這個部分有沒有了解一下你們的結構比或者是實際的狀況？"],["廖院長俊智：目前進行的主要是兩個面向，一個是文化、人文方面有民族所，另外原住民族有很多固有的醫療上的應用，這些……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。如果是醫療，我想跟你請教一下，關於你們整理的數據比例，請問營生就是你們所謂的醫療嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：哪一個？"],["林委員倩綺：營生這個詞在你們的報告裡面。"],["廖院長俊智：營生，哪一個……"],["林委員倩綺：我現在一下子沒有辦法翻，應該在你們報告裡面，你去看你們整理出來的原住民相關數據，我直接講，在原住民族知識推廣的部分，我先講一下你們的比例，大部分你們都集中在民族跟社會所，那人文社會研究在院裡面的比例占了6.73%，相較於其他的生科跟數科大概11.75%跟11.81%，其實有很大的落差。","如果原住民的部分都還集中在人文社會裡面的話，你們可能要去計算一下這裡面的差異，這個是我要很深刻的提醒，因為我覺得常常在研究單位、教育單位……因為你們是研究單位，所以我就內容的部分深談，這還沒有到真正的內容，而是在你們整個結構比例的部分，也就是現在大部分的研究都會把原住民族集中在人文社會這個區塊，事實上，你們在其他的部分其實有很大的空間，當然我知道你們生科也做了一些。","接下來我要談的是，應用的層面跟技轉的部分我覺得你們可以去思考，你們固有的想法很少去做這個連結，我想我現在問這個數據，搞不好連1都沒有，但是當我們講到技轉，後面有要講，但我擔心時間不夠，所以在前面先跟你們講。技轉這樣一個概念在原住民的主題上你們是怎麼思考的？這其實跟我講的應用層面也有關係，我可能沒有辦法聽你們太多的回應，如果待會有空，你們就跟我談談技轉的部分你們有做到些什麼。"],["廖院長俊智：好，我們會後……"],["林委員倩綺：對！我的概念一直是不希望原住民族成為現代的博物館，現在有的時候看起來也只是一個活生生的博物館而已，所以我講一下，這部分你們可能要去確認，請問一下，中研院裡面原住民籍專任、兼任的研究員大概有多少？"],["廖院長俊智：這個……"],["林委員倩綺：等你們跑完都來不及了！"],["張所長珣：民族所報告，在我們所正式的有一位，博士訪問……"],["林委員倩綺：兼任的有兩位嗎？然後博士生有很多位，是吧？"],["張所長珣：對！"],["林委員倩綺：剛才我聽到有其他委員提到你們博士生的鼓勵、獎勵，我這邊也是支持，希望你們能夠在這個部分再多強化一些，因為上次我聽到原住民的學生……在東部的也滿多的，可是因為受限於交通、空間的關係，所以他們就算做所謂現代科學性的東西，其實未來的就業還是有很大的問題，所以在中研院這邊也期待有一些平臺上的承接。","接下來，這個部分我實在必須帶得很快，我其實很想跟你們探討research content的部分，我就直接從原住民這邊再接續到接下來這個主題，不過我如果問原住民籍的院士有幾個，我想可能又……所以……"],["廖院長俊智：未來會有。"],["林委員倩綺：我相信未來都會有，我們就朝這個目標去邁進。","第二個部分我們來談一下，剛才有委員提到你們量子部分做得還滿不錯的，在院內民族所是不是做過巫師的研究，對吧？簡單整理臺灣研究的部分，占很大經費的都是所謂的硬體，但是我覺得這個缺口經常是軟體做了一些，但是軟體的應用跟處理你們做得好像也稍微有點欠缺，這怎麼說呢，你們在做量子區塊時，你們有思考過量子糾結或量子疊加跟巫師這個系統在現代性的呈現可能有什麼連結嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：這是非常有趣的問題。"],["林委員倩綺：你除了把我們一直放在博物館裡面、告訴我們說這個東西很好，我已經聽了十幾、二十年，我自己也很認真的在這個部分做了一些內容上的討論。但我發現大概十幾、二十年來，我們對於原住民區塊的研究大概也只能停在這邊，這就是我剛才講的技轉的部分，這技轉有很多個層面，我們在講量子的主題上，當然我們可能在太空時間是不太可能有這個位置去談的，但是，在我們所謂原住民的區塊或傳統的區塊，有沒有可能在現代性的實質科學研究去處理到這個？未來搞不好可以走出一條很有趣的路的主題，院長的看法呢？"],["廖院長俊智：可以思考看看，這部分確實我們努力的比較少，但是可以思考看看。"],["林委員倩綺：這是內容的部分，所以我也丟給你們一些可能性。科研的應用跟社會的連結除了在原住民的部分，上回我也跟你們提出了一個問題，其實大家都會跟著講一些AI口號，但是對我們曾經投入過AI的人來說，請問它跟非常強大的電腦計算其差異在哪裡？你們現在可能也沒有機會回答這個問題，可是我一直很希望我的問題能夠被回應，因為它不是三言兩語可以講完的。","除了在硬體的部分占很大經費外，但在軟體跟應用跟傳統的連結上，我覺得作為最高的研究單位是不是有機會……雖然我們一天到晚談整合、一天到晚談跨域，那到底我們整合了多少、跨域了多少？請問院長。"],["廖院長俊智：好，這個我簡單說明。這確實是一個非常重要但是又非常複雜的問題，我們院裡面所有做這方面AI工作，幾乎所有都是跨域、整合的，所以它是無形的進行當中，而不是特別說有一個或幾個跨域的、整合的計畫，幾乎所有AI的研究都是跨域、都是整合，都是要看臺灣有哪一些優勢。對於實際的應用，我們希望到最後都能夠化有形為無形，大家不知不覺就用在……"],["林委員倩綺：是的，所以我剛才一開始就提醒了，所以在原住民的領域，你就可以看到很多。我剛才提的不是只有原住民領域，而是在我們人文、生科到數理，那到底是怎麼個結合法？所以最後我們談一個數據的問題。你們專利量增加了，但是技轉的數據其實是變低了，整個收入也是變低。當然研究單位不是以利益為考量，但是我們可能可以從這個數據裡面去思考，為什麼會是這樣子的情形？"],["廖院長俊智：確實誠如委員講的，我們在技轉的考量並不是以技轉金的高低作為唯一的標準，而是希望這個技術能夠貢獻於社會，怎麼樣讓更多人能夠更有效率地用到這個技術，這是我們最主要考量，而不是像一般公司行號以技轉金作為唯一的考量。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝院長。最後一個提醒，對於人才回流、人才培育跟人才工作的平臺，我希望中研院這邊能夠再多加考量，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢。我們現在請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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不排除?是的所以我想我們再換一個問法就是說這個核電其實未來我們不管用或不用未來的狀況是怎麼樣但是我想我們都必須要投入相關的研究那這些研究也要來跟國際做一個接軌所以不管是提升這個核能安全性研議或者是這個核融合SM等等這些都是我們必須要去投入人力資源預算來去做研究這個您同意嗎?"},{"start":105.032,"end":126.134,"text":"合電的研究分很多層面。從基礎研究的角度,它需要投入非常大的資源,幾乎全世界只有少數的國家可以獨立投入,比如說美國,比如說中國,其他都是跨國合作。合電的研究大部分都是在商業化,"},{"start":126.795,"end":129.357,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":144.77,"end":146.17,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":167.677,"end":169.678,"text":"事項中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":183.468,"end":201.024,"text":"所以院長對不起我能不能這樣解讀就剛才說到兩個第一個就是說要用新科技來提升核能安全性第二個要補強這個位於地震帶的核電廠所以現在有做的是第二部分第一部分我們還沒有開始進行做對第一部分主要是這個在這個實際建設的階段那每一個核電廠每一個SMR都有它設計的方式那這個別人這個無從置喙"},{"start":209.792,"end":235.712,"text":"需要設計工程公司自己去做那學研單位最多只能從比較廣泛的一個角度提供一些這個比較general的一些問題那這個在國際上也有一些研究但是由於過去幾年全世界核能的研究這前景不明所以這方面前景不明"},{"start":236.733,"end":259.168,"text":"院長我想目前就我們自己的狀況來看我們知道核三廠二號機組在明年的五月就要除役了那我們現在看到再生能源的這個發電進展其實是遲緩的那麼我們不管是提高燃氣燃煤發電的比例都其實都會增加碳排所以現在我們看到中火這個二期增加的這個燃氣機組的爭議等等如果"},{"start":261.63,"end":267.694,"text":"我們政府堅持要排除掉零碳排的核電您個人認為在2050近零碳排的目標會不會達成?"},{"start":269.932,"end":290.799,"text":"禁令我們沒有放棄任何乾淨能源的本錢所以我們要達成禁令一定要想盡辦法用所有可以用的技術那剛才委員提到說我們這個天然氣廠雖然排炭但是他所這個替代的燃煤電廠他"},{"start":292.58,"end":295.062,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":322.5,"end":324.761,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":338.769,"end":343.753,"text":"不是不能這樣講是說我們這個研究繼續進行但這個計劃是在這個14年的預算裡面是明年1月才會開始我想院長其實您真的是很實事求是啦那其實我們有看到其實在112年在就是65千瓦等級的小型商用發電機組那我們以混淨10%的濃度有發電成功那我本身有看到這個部分不過呢"},{"start":365.089,"end":366.35,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":385.981,"end":387.983,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究基金附屬單位預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":407.52,"end":435.78,"text":"那剛才您有提到就是說這個預算嘛那我看到中研院在明年的這個預算當中我們也編列了4年10億的這個相關的這個這個經費明年先編了2億那這個中研院預計在什麼時候我們會開始進行百萬瓦級的相關的混清測試有沒有信心可以做這是我們的規劃是兩年後就在台電由台電購置5M的機組那我們的聚氮燃氣的反應器跟台電機組做串聯"},{"start":437.341,"end":438.381,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案"},{"start":461.028,"end":468.055,"text":"我們會跟他平攤費用嗎?不一定是平攤,但是會有一個制裁的一個...所以這個還沒有談出來?這個現在還為時尚早,因為將來還要技術發展的狀況還不確定。"},{"start":476.442,"end":506.442,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":506.582,"end":508.384,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":523.76,"end":550.189,"text":"可以,我們這個制裁計轉有非常完善的制度不管是公營事業或是民營事業我們都有一套這個制裁計轉的規定好,最後院長我想這個去碳燃氣技術如果能夠成功當然是可以這個有效的去降低這個燃氣機組的碳排放所以現在看起來我們有一些在測試當中有一些可能還沒有很積極的這個進展那我覺得我對中研院非常有信心要請同仁大家"},{"start":550.769,"end":555.415,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":485,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時42分）謝謝主席，有請廖院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：萬委員早。"],["萬委員美玲：院長早。您身兼總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人，這個是關乎國家能源二次轉型跟達成2050淨零碳排目標，非常重要！站在中研院的立場，除了在研究上要不斷的精進之外，你們是不是也會提供一些正確的建議給各部會？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有錯嘛？"],["廖院長俊智：我們是從科技的角度提出。"],["萬委員美玲：很好！今年8月跟10月，兩次國家氣候變遷對策會議都有提到，明年1月要提出臺灣2032年的減碳新目標，院長都有出席，對嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：根據會議資料，您當時有說要利用新科技提升核能安全性或補強位於地震帶的核電廠，這一些言論是否代表您對於國家能源的發展是不排除核電的？"],["廖院長俊智：從技術上來講，這些是可行的。"],["萬委員美玲：是可行的，所以您不排除？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：我再換一個問法，未來不管我們用或不用核電的狀況是怎麼樣，我們都必須要投入相關的研究，這些研究也要跟國際接軌，所以不管是提升核能安全性、延役或者是核融合、SMR等等，這些都是我們必須投入人力資源預算來研究的，您同意嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：核電的研究分很多層面，從基礎研究的角度，它需要投入非常大的資源，全世界只有少數的國家可以獨立投入，譬如美國、中國，其他都是跨國合作。核電的研究大部分都是在商業化及安全性方面的研究比較多，這方面……"],["萬委員美玲：我請教院長，現在中研院有在進行新核能技術的研發嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：比如我們剛剛提到的，其中像SMR或核融合這些技術研究，有嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：沒有，因為這方面有幾個原因，第一個、最主要就是這裡面的基礎研究……"],["萬委員美玲：沒關係，我們找個時間，您再跟我說原因。"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["萬委員美玲：如果沒有的話，因為您有出席剛才我說的會議，您有說到要利用新科技來提升核能的安全性。如果現在相關的研究都沒有在進行，您認為只要未來核電安全，你還是會繼續支持嗎？為什麼研究沒有做？"],["廖院長俊智：我們可以做的研究，不是直接SMR或直接核電，譬如地震的研究，我們做很多，我們可以很清楚地了解，臺灣在哪一個地方地震的風險性有多高，怎麼樣加強它的……"],["萬委員美玲：對不起！我能不能這樣解讀？剛才說到兩個，第一個就是要用新科技來提升核能安全性，第二個要補強位於地震帶的核電廠，所以現在有做的是第二部分，第一部分還沒有開始進行，是這樣嘛？"],["廖院長俊智：對，第一部分主要是在實際建設的階段，每一個核電廠、每一個SMR都有它設計的方式，別人無從置喙，必須要設計工程公司自己去做，學研單位最多只能從比較廣泛的角度提供一些比較general的問題。這個在國際上也有一些研究，但是由於過去幾年全世界核能研究前景不明，所以這方面……"],["萬委員美玲：目前就我們自己的狀況來看，我們知道核三廠2號機組在明年5月就要除役了，我們現在看到再生能源的發電進展其實是遲緩的，不管是提高燃氣、燃煤發電的比例都會增加碳排。現在我們看到中火二期增加燃氣機組的爭議等等，如果政府堅持要排除掉零碳排的核電，您個人認為2050淨零碳排的目標會不會達成？"],["廖院長俊智：我們沒有放棄任何乾淨能源的本錢，所以我們要達成淨零，一定要想盡辦法用所有可以用的技術。剛才委員提到，天然氣廠雖然排碳，但是它替代燃煤電廠所排的碳確實減少很多。"],["萬委員美玲：沒關係！我就請教您，以目前來看，您覺得2050淨零碳排的目標會達成嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：這確實是很困難，全世界都一樣。"],["萬委員美玲：接下來，我想請教一下，除了核電之外，在該會當中，你們也有盤點到各部會的減碳旗艦計畫。其中，中研院跟經濟部有合作，也正在研究測試天然氣去碳燃氫的技術。本席看到目標是希望117年能夠達到混氫20%的濃度，這對嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是的，但那是在那幾個機組，並不是全部的機組，只有一個試驗的5MW機組而已。"],["萬委員美玲：現在有什麼成果？"],["廖院長俊智：現在錢好像還沒下來，1月才開始。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有錢，所以毫無成果？"],["廖院長俊智：不是！不能這樣講，而是研究繼續進行，但這個計畫是在114年的預算裡面，是明年1月才會開始。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，您真的是很實事求是。其實我們有看到，112年65千瓦等級的小型商用發電機組以混氫10%的濃度有發電成功，本席有看到這個部分，不過我也看到台電的發電機組都是用百萬瓦級的大型發電機組，所以65千瓦的小型發電機組看起來好像是一個測試，也沒有進入發電。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：如果去碳燃氫技術沒有辦法用在這麼大型的百萬瓦的發電機組上面，對於減碳有幫助嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：假如沒辦法用上，當然沒有幫助，所以我們現在才要開始跟台電合作，5MW就是第一步。對比台電的機組，5MW的機組仍然是非常小，仍然是測試階段，所以我一再強調，這是一個很長的進程，國際上還沒有人成功這樣做，我們希望能夠至少先國際……"],["萬委員美玲：剛才您有提到預算，我看到中研院在明年的預算當中也編列了4年10億的相關經費，明年先編了2億。中研院預計在什麼時候會開始進行百萬瓦級相關的混氫測試？有沒有信心可以做？"],["廖院長俊智：我們的規劃是2年後由台電購置5MW的機組，我們的去碳燃氫反應器跟台電機組做串聯，在那個時候接上去。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，我想這個計畫是中研院跟台電合作，經費是雙方來平攤嗎？將來這個技術研發成功之後，你們是無償提供給台電，還是會向台電收取部分技轉的費用？"],["廖院長俊智：技轉我們將來還要另外再談，現在是共同開發的階段。"],["萬委員美玲：你們會跟它平攤費用嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不一定是平攤，但是會有一個智財的做法。"],["萬委員美玲：所以這個還沒有談出來？"],["廖院長俊智：現在還為時尚早，因為將來技術發展的狀況還不確定。"],["萬委員美玲：院長，即使為時尚早，我們也要預作準備。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["萬委員美玲：而且台電連續調漲電價，經濟部明年還編了2,000億要撥補台電的虧損，明年開始起，不管是優惠電價或電價凍漲的金額，看起來台電都已經把它回歸到各目的事業主管機關自行辦理或自行編列預算去支應，換句話說，看起來台電跟各部會就是親兄弟明算帳。所以在此本席提醒中研院，真的不要客氣，將來該平攤的費用要平攤……"],["廖院長俊智：那當然。"],["萬委員美玲：中研院預算也沒有很多，但我們一天到晚都在撥補台電，它要跟各部會親兄弟明算帳，我真的建議，院長，你們要提早做準備，將來不管是技轉、費用的平攤，都要事先跟台電講好，該台電付的，你們就不要客氣，可以嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：可以。我們的智財技轉有非常完善的制度，不管是公營事業或民營事業，我們都有一套智財技轉的規定，我們照那個規定來執行。"],["萬委員美玲：最後，去碳燃氫技術如果能夠成功，當然可以有效地降低燃氣機組的碳排放，所以現在看起來我們有一些在測試當中，有一些可能還沒有很積極的進展，我對中研院非常有信心，請同仁大家辛苦，趕緊地把該做的工作補上，如果在人力上面、預算上面有需要，我們都會予以支持，中研院現在所有承擔的工作對於臺灣的未來都非常重要，希望院長跟所有同仁要繼續加油！"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：院長請回。謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢。","再來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}},{"id":"156664","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156664","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69fbaf5aea499d69584cdcaed4cc0e83fd5a12e40efa9c24bd35e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:14:45 - 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"中央研究院南部院區在上個月正式開幕那在上週六南部院區也有舉辦院區開放日那身為台南的立委大大的肯定這樣的一個舉辦那當然之前台北舉辦的活動也可以在南部舉行真的是讓南部的民眾不用在大老遠跑到台北那可以同樣可以這個探訪最高學術殿堂的機會"},{"start":45.145,"end":64.48,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":64.48,"end":82.244,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":82.244,"end":108.439,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":108.639,"end":131.072,"text":"至少在這個院區開放日這個比較軟性的細節開始我們是不是可以用這個來作為一些連結這個拉近南北差距然後隨著這個南部院區運行也更上軌道我們是不是在南部院區這種開放日有更多更多的活動能追上北部院區的腳步"},{"start":132.153,"end":132.173,"text":"議員提問"},{"start":153.093,"end":156.756,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":179.391,"end":200.856,"text":"所以可能場次是北部的四分之一甚至更少明年我們可能會增加至於是否要也有兒童科普日我們目前想法是說倒不一定是要分開而是分開哪一些場次我們標注是給兒童的哪一些是給高中以上的學生"},{"start":201.596,"end":203.958,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":218.889,"end":235.395,"text":"台南是臺灣最早開發的地區所以我們因為府城的經貿發達所以我們其實發展出很多的人文特色本席要很肯定我們在南部縣區我們有設置人文社會的研究基地所以要帶動南臺灣的人文研究風氣本席認為說南部的縣區現在可以以南方島嶼人文的展覽為基礎"},{"start":247.199,"end":272.196,"text":"未來的這個南院的開放的活動可以衍生出更多視角的南台灣的人文領域的研究座談跟互動體驗等等那例如台南的希拉雅文化這個還有它的語言研究跟保存這個議題等等所以我期盼可以藉這個機會能讓國內外的學者民眾可以更"},{"start":272.856,"end":274.459,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":288.54,"end":302.801,"text":"陳大有這個所謂的航太相關的科系那台南的大內也有著南營天文館那太空中心未來又要進駐沙倫那我們可能還要在台南部署所謂的火箭組裝基地等等"},{"start":303.422,"end":318.882,"text":""},{"start":318.882,"end":346.647,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":347.971,"end":375.144,"text":"謝謝委員誇獎天文我們會回去跟我們的同仁去鼓勵在南部明年辦一個展覽好 謝謝再來本席想要跟院長探討就是說其實我們台灣有許多優秀的研究人才那我們當然還需要更多有潛力的優秀的學生來投入學術這個研究領域"},{"start":376.284,"end":377.765,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":398.157,"end":417.947,"text":"近6年這個申請的人數都破千人不過本時有注意到就是說在2002開辦至今除了前5年的報告率維持在7、8成外那其他很多的那個年度的報告率好像都落在6成左右"},{"start":418.387,"end":439.178,"text":"但在2023年報告率只有6乘7有1382人報名但入企155人但實際報告是104想要請教是說國際研究生的學程入企學生的報告率不太高的原因是什麼不曉得你們有探討"},{"start":440.239,"end":456.196,"text":"是這樣子因為我們現在的越辦越好我們開始能夠跟國際間的名校競爭同一批學生所以同一個學生他可能被我們TIGP入取同時他也可能申請到日本、美國、香港的大學"},{"start":457.757,"end":476.878,"text":"當然我們要跟這些國際名校競爭難免會失去一些報道率上面的一些表現所以這個是我們努力的目標我們希望說學證越來越好報道率也越來越高但這兩者不見得說可以同時成長"},{"start":478.059,"end":489.603,"text":"整體的數字委員報告我們每年申請的人數都逐年上升特別是去年開始我們增加獎助金之後我們申請的人數成長了幾乎變成原來的兩倍"},{"start":493.864,"end":495.947,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":510.287,"end":513.809,"text":"最後我想跟您談談就是說美國大選後這個的台灣挑戰美國大選其實這次川普贏得選戰那長期研究台灣的日本學者小麗元星星他就有分析說川普的當選有可能是台灣噩夢的這個危險徵兆那局勢恐有利於中國可是他也有提到有評論認為說可能因為美中"},{"start":542.881,"end":561.967,"text":"兩種說法都不一可是院長您應該也跟長期一些相關的研究單位的所長那我想也都有做一些分析那不曉得您怎麼樣看就是說川普從長白宮的整個全球局勢那台灣的影響跟挑戰是什麼可不可以簡單講一下"},{"start":562.967,"end":587.222,"text":"我想這個在非常複雜瞬息萬變的國際環境當中台灣一定要審慎以對那一定要強化自己各方面的能力那這個才是台灣這個安全最重要的保障那詳細我們有很多這個學者專家從政治經濟法律各層面來做探討我們是不是請這些專家來分享一下"},{"start":590.475,"end":617.213,"text":"議員好我是經濟所副所長楊淑君有關於關稅的部分呢你有提到說這個我們也許會從中得利因為他們針對大陸的產品科稅的比例是比較高的但是這個要從這個商品到底是跟台灣的這個產品產業到底是互補還是競爭如果是互補的情況之下如果大陸的產品產業受到嚴重的影響那我們一樣會有負面的影響但是如果是競爭的話"},{"start":619.855,"end":623.277,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、處理中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":647.472,"end":669.724,"text":"那明年即將要到這個明年即將就是要辦第五屆了可是之前我們有移師過美國那跟華盛頓大學共同來舉辦可是這一次好像又要回到台灣來不曉得這個考量在哪裡那未來有沒有機會再去歐洲或大洋洲去舉辦這個大會呢?有,我們都會考量那請那個主辦單位來做個說明"},{"start":672.907,"end":693.247,"text":"議員好,我是政治所所長,負責這次臺灣研究世界大會。原來預期論文大概是250篇,那目前進來大概有500篇。那我們本來它就是每三年在臺灣跟國外輪流拜,下一屆會是在美國UCSD來舉行,就像簡單說。所以就是每三年一次。是的。那有可能縮減到兩年或一年一次嗎?"},{"start":694.178,"end":698.22,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時14分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：林委員早。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長早。中研院南部院區在上個月正式開幕，上週六南部院區也舉辦了院區開放日，身為臺南的立委，大大地肯定這樣的舉辦，當然之前臺北舉辦的活動也可以在南部舉行，真的是讓南部民眾不用再大老遠跑到臺北，同樣可以有探訪最高學術殿堂的機會。這次南部院區開放日，有35場大大小小的展覽，還有座談、互動的體驗，真的還是要給予很大的肯定。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：不過，我們看臺北的院區開放日有183場活動，是南部院區開放活動數量的五倍多；臺北院區開放的還有一個專屬兒童的兒童科普日，兒童科普日一共也有76個活動。我理解是因為南部院區剛開始，所以很多研究單位和運行的規模跟臺北有所區別，活動的規模可能也有所差異，可是我想設立南部院區的宗旨當然就是要拉近南北的均衡發展，吸引更多科研人才到南臺灣，這是我們最重要的目的。所以我認為至少在院區開放日，從這個比較軟性的細節開始，我們是不是可以用這個作為一些連結，拉近南北差距？隨著南部院區的運行也更上軌道，是不是在南部院區這種開放日有更多更多的活動，能追上北部院區的腳步？"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以我想請教院長，當然今年是35場，那可不可以期待明年能夠是今年的兩倍，或者明年也有屬於兒童的科普活動？"],["廖院長俊智：好，首先，謝謝委員的誇獎，我們確實是希望在南部能夠打造一個很親民的院區，今年第一次院區開放不確定有多少人會來，我們有點謹慎，所以場次為35場，我認為已經是非常了不起，我自己認為全院同仁都非常幫忙。此外跟委員提醒，南部院區的腹地是北部的四分之一，我們沒有辦法容納這麼多場次，所以可能場次是北部的四分之一甚至更少，明年我們可能會增加。至於是否也有兒童科普日，我們目前的想法是，倒不一定要分開，而是分哪一些場次我們標註是給兒童的、哪一些是給高中以上的學生或成人，我想以這種方式可能比較適合。因為畢竟很多人是全家大小要來，不是只有小孩，所以我們是希望以這個方式來做。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，特別我想再跟你提及人文社會方面，臺南是臺灣最早開發的地區，因為府城的經貿發達，所以我們其實發展出很多的人文特色，這個本席要很肯定，在南部院區有設置人文社會的研究基地，是要帶動南臺灣的人文研究風氣。本席認為，南部院區現在能夠以「南方．島嶼．人文」的展覽為基礎，未來南院的開放活動可衍生出更多視角的南臺灣人文領域之研究、座談和互動體驗等等，例如臺南的「西拉雅」文化，還有它的語言研究和保存議題等等。我期盼藉這個機會讓國內外學者、民眾可以更深入認識分布在南臺灣的人文珍寶。","另外本席也觀察到，這次南部院區的開放日少了天文方面的活動，因為成大有航太相關的科系，臺南大內也有南瀛天文館，而太空中心未來又要進駐沙崙，我們可能還要在臺南部署火箭組裝基地等等，我覺得這次南院開放活動少了天文這一塊，有一點點可惜。所以本席建議，是不是除了量子科學還有淨零科技的領域外，南部院區真的還可以更多元地展開一些南臺灣的特色來跟民眾交流。"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長，所以我剛剛提及所謂天文的加駐、挹注活水，是不是可以承諾這一塊，就是我們更加多元地發展？"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝委員的預約，我們明年再請天文所評估看看有沒有可能到南部院區做個科普演講或展覽等活動。"],["彭所長威禮：謝謝委員誇獎天文，我們回去會跟同仁鼓勵，明年在南部辦一個展覽。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝。再來本席想要跟院長探討，其實我們臺灣有許多優秀的研究人才，當然還需要更多有潛力的優秀學生投入學術研究領域。中研院的施政計畫和項目中就非常著重這一塊，特別是在人才培育中，與大學共同培育卓越人才方面，所以常年辦理國際研究生的學程（TIGP），希望延攬國內外具有潛力的學生，近6年這個申請的人數都破千人。不過本席注意到，2002年開辦至今，除了前5年的報到率維持在七、八成外，其他很多年度的報到率好像都落在六成左右，在2023年的報到率也只有六成七，有1,382人報名，可是錄取155個人，實際報到為104人。所以想請教，這個國際研究生的學程，錄取學生的報到率不太高的原因是什麼，不曉得你們有沒有探討？"],["廖院長俊智：是這樣子，因為我們現在越辦越好，開始能夠跟國際間的名校競爭同一批學生，所以同一個學生可能被我們TIGP錄取，同時他也可能申請到日本、美國、香港的大學，當然我們要跟這些國際名校競爭，難免會失去一些報到率上面的表現，這仍然是我們努力的目標。我們希望學生越來越好，報到率也越來越高，但這兩者不見得可以同時成長。整體的數字跟委員報告，每年申請的人數都逐年上升，特別是去年開始我們增加獎助金之後，申請的人數成長了幾乎變成原來的兩倍，這是非常可喜的現象。由於這樣子，我們也可以開始跟國際的名校競爭，這可能也是造成報到率沒有提升的原因。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，不過我們還是要想方設法……"],["廖院長俊智：是，對，好。"],["林委員宜瑾：讓好的優秀人才可以來我們這裡。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。最後我想跟您談談美國大選後對臺灣的挑戰，這次川普贏得選戰，長期研究臺灣的日本學者小笠原欣幸就分析，川普的當選有可能是「臺灣惡夢的危險徵兆……局勢恐有利於中國」；但他也提到，有評論認為「可能因美中貿易戰加劇，反而成為臺灣機會」，兩種說法不一。可是院長，您跟長期以來一些相關研究單位的所長，我想應該也都有做一些分析，不曉得您怎麼樣看，川普重掌白宮的整個全球局勢對臺灣的影響和挑戰是什麼，可不可以簡單講一下？"],["廖院長俊智：我想在非常複雜、瞬息萬變的國際環境當中，臺灣一定要審慎以對，一定要強化自己各方面的能力，這個才是臺灣安全最重要的保障。詳細的我們有很多學者專家從政治、經濟、法律各層面做探討，是不是請這些專家分享一下？"],["楊副所長淑珺：委員好，我是經濟所副所長楊淑珺。有關於關稅的部分，您有提到，我們也許可以從中得利，因為他們針對大陸產品課稅的比例是比較高的。但是這要從這個商品跟臺灣的產品產業到底是互補還是競爭來看，如果是互補的情況之下，當大陸的產品產業受到嚴重的影響，我們一樣會有負面的影響；但是如果是競爭的話，確實有可能會從轉單的效應來得利。"],["林委員宜瑾：因為時間的關係，我想我們除了半導體這個優勢以外，其實其他領域的研究跟發展，就是說充實我們內外的軟硬實力，這是中研院跟其他的相關部會都要共同來研究的。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["林委員宜瑾：因為時間的關係，我再簡單問一下，中研院有持續辦理臺灣研究世界大會，明年即將要辦第5屆了，可是之前我們有移師過美國，跟華盛頓大學共同來舉辦，可是這一次好像又要回到臺灣來，不曉得這個考量在哪裡？未來有沒有機會再去歐洲或大洋洲舉辦這個大會呢？"],["廖院長俊智：有，我們都會考量，請主辦單位來做個說明。"],["吳所長重禮：委員好，我是政治所所長，負責這次臺灣研究世界大會。原來預期論文大概是250篇，目前進來的大概有500篇，本來它就是每3年在臺灣跟國外輪流辦，下一屆會是在美國UCSD來舉行。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以是每3年一次？"],["吳所長重禮：是的。"],["林委員宜瑾：有可能縮減到2年或1年一次嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，是3年在臺灣辦一次。"],["林委員宜瑾：3年在臺灣辦一次？"],["吳所長重禮：對，每3年辦一次，然後到國外去輪流辦理。"],["主席：是不是後續再以書面或者是口頭跟林委員報告？"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢，院長請回。","再來請郭昱晴委員質詢。郭昱晴委員質詢完，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}},{"id":"156693","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156693","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69fd59b0c508feb5c5bcdcaed4cc0e83fd5af7ef51fd14340ce14c0753048fa81f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:22:44 - 12:34:38","影片長度":"00:11:54","會議時間":"2024-11-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案。\n四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案。\n五、審查中央研究院函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議（一）「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案。\n（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答，相關預算提案請於11月18日下午2時前提出）\n【11月11日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-11","start_time":"2024-11-11T12:22:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-11T12:34:38+08:00","duration":714,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":3.1359687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.27034375,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.375343750000003,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.88096875,"end":48.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.58909375,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.221593750000004,"end":49.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.056593750000005,"end":55.110968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.127843750000004,"end":69.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.91034375000001,"end":85.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.35534375,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.73971875000001,"end":109.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.27971875,"end":109.51596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.78596875000001,"end":115.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.83659375,"end":111.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.01721875000001,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.97034375000001,"end":118.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.02096875000001,"end":122.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.12221875,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.00346875000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.03721875000001,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.17221875000001,"end":123.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.89784375,"end":123.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.62346875,"end":172.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.65284375,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.21909375,"end":179.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.96909375,"end":188.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.44471875000002,"end":211.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.96409375000002,"end":216.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.35159375,"end":219.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.67596875,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.77721875,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.21909375,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.15471875000003,"end":281.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.93471875,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.94721875,"end":265.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.08221875000004,"end":266.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.13284375,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.26971875000004,"end":284.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.03721875,"end":284.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.86409375,"end":285.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.48846875000004,"end":286.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.95659375,"end":288.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.69471875,"end":288.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.91409375,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.11659375,"end":332.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.10971875,"end":341.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.13846875,"end":348.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.91846875000005,"end":343.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.02346875,"end":346.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.44909375000003,"end":351.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.01409375000003,"end":366.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.96096875,"end":367.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.81721875000005,"end":370.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.67784375,"end":378.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.60096875000005,"end":407.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.88284375,"end":449.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.49659375000005,"end":465.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.23659375000005,"end":473.087843750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教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":513.672,"end":534.751,"text":"當時當每當國內外發生種種的與經濟直接或間接的相關議題在各類媒體和訊息管道都可以看到這兩個財團法人提出種種的分析那我想這兩個財團法人就像我之前有跟你講過的台灣綜合研究院以及財團法人中華經濟研究院那這兩個財團法人提出的種種分析跟看法"},{"start":535.231,"end":545.687,"text":"而中央研究院幾乎沒有只會寫期刊文章當時你也有給我一些回應說會請經濟所可以思考朝這個方向來做稍微的調整請問後續呢請經濟所副總長"},{"start":549.08,"end":576.391,"text":"委員好經濟所現在曾經所說我們大部分同仁從事的是基礎科學的經濟研究但是慢慢的也在像我們每半年有一次的這個經濟預測它的這個運作也慢慢擴充了包括我們已經開始從事一個臺灣消費者預期跟政治反應調查另外也有越來越多同仁開始從事政策研究包括勞工改革勞保的改革"},{"start":578.152,"end":593.127,"text":"包括這個這個長照健保的部分所以我們也未來也在12月要開一個研討會那有改進都好但是我想國際上跟國內有許多重要的議題比如川普2.0的一個局勢發展"},{"start":594.048,"end":594.348,"text":"院長您覺得呢?"},{"start":616.567,"end":642.321,"text":"我覺得朝這方向努力是對的因為我們的三大這個院警目標之中其中是是善盡社會關鍵責任就是這一項我想我們投入這麼多筆的預算在中研院符合社會的期待當然你們有很多的重擔跟眾所的期盼責任重大但是我們都希望中研院可以更好符合社會的一個期待那我想另外再請問一下風機研究這個部分"},{"start":643.281,"end":667.139,"text":"風機研究我們都看到風能發電機是嗎?風機對,風機研究我們沒有做這方面的研究有啦在這就一位同仁2016年你上任的時候2018年有做這樣中央醫院環境變遷中心有進行一項研究去了解風機低頻噪音對心臟的不利影響不好意思我標題講的比較短那你等我敘述內容嘛好不好"},{"start":667.819,"end":683.268,"text":"好那都有做這個民眾啊居民經過兩年的監測紀錄長期接收低頻噪音後居民心律的變異顯著增加心律變異可能會引起頭痛難以集中注意力"},{"start":683.948,"end":710.722,"text":"疫怒、疲勞、頭暈相關的研究指出。好那最後我要想的是你們有這樣的研究那最後我預計大概是10月左右才出來的這份研究那政府你們有沒有去建議他們會不會採納他後續有沒有什麼一樣的一個具體的作為我們希望會後能夠提供給我你們的研究很好但政府有沒有採納政府有沒有實際去做這些事情我們要後續來追蹤這個部分麻煩你好謝謝"},{"start":712.776,"end":713.144,"text":"議員提出議案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時22分）謝謝召委，有請院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長好。院長上次拜訪我的時候，當時你也有跟我提到天然氣去碳燃氫的這一項技術，當時大家都很關心我們社會現在面對能源危機到底有什麼因應措施。對於天然氣去碳燃氫混氫發電技術，在過程當中勢必會有一些研究，所以我想要就幾個問題跟你請教，天然氣發電會不會造成空污？"],["廖院長俊智：天然氣發電造成的空污遠比煤要少很多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有錯，但是這個是比較問題，但我現在要問的是，就單純天然氣發電有沒有造成空污？"],["廖院長俊智：它仍然是會排二氧化碳，從廣義角度仍然是會有二氧化碳的排放，但是排放已經很少。我們用去碳燃氫就是希望進一步再降低它的排碳，我們先把碳拿出來，所以它到時候就不燒碳了，所謂的去碳燃氫就是這個意思。雖然剛開始是天然氣，但是真正燃燒的是氫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我懂、我懂，為什麼中研院會去研究這一項技術？我們都認為天然氣在燃燒過程有所謂的排碳問題，我們希望能夠達到好還要更好，還要再追求完美，所以我們認同中研院研究這樣的技術。但是我們看到天然氣發電還是會造成少數的空污，可以這樣子形容，對吧？"],["廖院長俊智：就是它會排碳。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有排碳就有空污，只是你講得比較隱晦一點，算是比較少一點的空污。"],["廖院長俊智：而且它的空污比較容易控制。"],["羅委員廷瑋：空污比較容易控制，所以我們才要所謂的去碳燃氫，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：天然氣發電本身已經……"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天中研院院長也可以證實我們的說法，為什麼在爭取所謂的增氣減煤的過程，我們擔憂的是增氣不減煤會層層疊加上去，會讓臺中市尤其在中火的影響之下，對臺中人的健康會有所影響。今天我沒有要你幫我們背書，我們只是希望側面瞭解到底，所謂的天然氣會不會造成排碳、造成空污？今天問題又來了，所謂的新技術天然氣去碳燃氫混氫發電，你們最後選在高雄興達廠，你跟我講你們是計畫性，最重要的是台電在合作，執行面在台電，台電選擇了高雄興達廠，中研院有沒有機會去做高度的建議，其實臺中也可以作為一個參考？"],["廖院長俊智：我想下階段當然有機會，但是目前據我們瞭解是現實上的困難，至於現實上有哪些……"],["羅委員廷瑋：現實上有沒有困難，我們再來側面瞭解一下，剛剛我有聽到其他的委員也很關心，你提到有沒有這樣的場域？有沒有這樣的空間？我坦白跟你講，怎麼可能沒有！中火作為世界前幾大火力發電，也是臺灣第一大火力發電，現在正在做所謂的增氣工程，它當然可以把天然氣機組改成混氫發電。"],["廖院長俊智：但那個是大型機組，我們現在的技術還沒有辦法到那個階段，很抱歉！"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我們希望臺中也有成為示範基地這樣子的機會。再來，把所謂的燃煤機組拆除掉，燃煤機組拆除掉一定會有更大的空間來做混氫發電。"],["廖院長俊智：這是可以討論的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個都可以討論。但是，事實上，中研院有沒有強力的建議？雖然我曾經許諾過不排除任何形式來想辦法，讓中央對臺中好一點，我也希望在這個場域上能夠建議你、拜託你能夠跟台電建議，混氫發電示範基地能夠選擇在臺中，這個部分你可以幫我們發聲嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想我們不只在臺中，不只在興達，我們希望在全國各地都能夠做，從小規模開始漸漸擴散到……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們持續關注這一項技術的發展，也希望你能夠幫臺中人說話，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。再來，我想請問一下，因為中研院算是總統府直屬的，在這幾個月當中，賴清德總統上任至今有沒有跟你開會討論或探討未來性有沒有什麼研究計畫，這個部分可以分享嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：主要是談能源的問題，跟南部院區的發展。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有沒有韌性社會？"],["廖院長俊智：這部分倒比較少。"],["羅委員廷瑋：都是能源為主？"],["廖院長俊智：能源跟南部院區的發展。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我還是延伸剛剛的問題，既然他有討論到能源，你是不是能夠建議他，關於所謂的混氫發電，中火不乏是一個選項，我想有這個機會從你的口中講出對臺中人有利的話，或許總統也可能會採納，這個部分可以嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：另外，請問院長，你有聽過翰林院嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：大概都知道啦！早年比較常聽到有些人說中研院就好像唐代的翰林院，所以研究院路種的紫薇就是唐代翰林院的象徵。院長，請問你知道翰林學士與翰林供奉的差別嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我不知道，但是中研院被人家比喻成翰林院只是一個比喻而已。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，我們沒有要就教，這是網路上的一個探討，我們沒有要做任何的批評，我只是跟你就教這樣子的一個前言。"],["廖院長俊智：這個部分我不瞭解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，有機會網路上翻一翻翰林學士與翰林供奉的差別，我想我們要正視的是一些問題。我們現在看到中研院的社會科學研究，實際上某些部分是有在退步的，你有發現嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想精進的空間是有，但是恐怕不見得是退步。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你聽聽看我說退步的地方在哪裡，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好，請說。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，我不會去否認某些人正在努力，而是外部的一些因素也造成了社會科學研究上的一些斷層。比如臺灣的學生願意在教育上投資自己的意願越來越少；再來，臺灣社會科學學生出國深造的比例，我們也看到逐漸降低，這都會影響我們在社會科學研究產生一些斷層。"],["廖院長俊智：事實上，這部分的問題相當複雜，因為臺灣現在大力要發展社會科學，特別在大學也發展社會科學研究所，假如我們已經很少學生，我們又鼓勵他到國外去念書，我們會收到什麼樣的學生，這兩件事情是互斥的，您當然也會看到我們出國的人少，那可能是因為我們希望在國內大力發展社會科學研究所的學程，所以是這樣子的狀況。當然我們仍然可以多鼓勵學生投入社會科學，因為畢竟社會科學是非常重要的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["廖院長俊智：所以我們也推出了中研院人文社會科學博士生的菁英獎學金，一次給他5年的獎助金，讓他沒有生活的憂慮，在前兩年拿4萬，在後三年拿5萬，我們透過這樣子的方案來獎助國內的人文社會科學。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我們不是說一昧的鼓勵這些學生一定要出國，但是我想就像你說的，雖然是互斥，但是我們也不能夠排除出國深造所學到的知識不一定……"],["廖院長俊智：是，沒錯，同意。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這個部分你可以認同嘛！"],["廖院長俊智：對，我非常同意。"],["羅委員廷瑋：在臺灣深造有一些好處，在國外深造也有它的好處，那我們當然對整體學生願意投資自己的機率越來越低的這個部分也要去研究，因為在社會科學的研究有這樣的一個斷層，可能都是由於一些多方的原因所造成。本席想另外再請教一個問題，院長，在3月20日第1會期的業務報告中，本席有提及要建議中研院改制回民間單位，以符合社會期待。因為每當國內外發生種種與經濟直接或間接相關的議題，在各類媒體和訊息管道都可以看到台灣綜合研究院以及財團法人中華經濟研究院這兩個財團法人提出種種的分析，就像我之前跟你講過的，這兩個財團法人會提出種種分析跟看法，而中研院的經濟所幾乎沒有，只會寫期刊文章。當時你也有給我一些回應，你說會請經濟所可以思考朝這個方向來做稍微的調整，請問後續呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我們請經濟所副所長說明。"],["楊副所長淑珺：委員好。經濟所現在誠如您所說的，我們大部分同仁從事的是基礎科學的經濟研究，但是像我們每半年有一次的經濟預測，它的運作也慢慢擴充了，包括我們已經開始從事一個臺灣消費者預期跟政策反應調查，另外也有越來越多同仁開始從事政策研究，包括勞保的改革，包括長照、健保的部分，我們未來在12月也要開一個研討會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，只要有改進都好。我想在國際上跟國內有許多重要的議題，比如川普2.0的局勢發展、廢死違憲的議題，當然不只經濟所，中研院有政治所、歐美所等各種研究所，有許多的研究人員，但是都比較少看到各個領域的研究人員出來好好的說明其分析、建議並提供對策。社會大眾真的希望中研院這些研究人員都可以走入社會中，希望各個研究所可以朝這個方向來努力，院長，您覺得呢？"],["廖院長俊智：我覺得朝這個方向努力是對的，因為在我們的三大願景目標之中，其中有一個是善盡社會關鍵責任，就是這一項。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，我想我們投入這麼多筆的預算在中研院，應該要符合社會的期待，當然你們有很多的重擔，而且是眾所期盼，責任重大，所以我們都希望中研院可以更好，以符合社會的期待。"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想另外再請問一下風機研究這個部分，我們都看到……"],["廖院長俊智：委員是不是說風能發電機？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，風機研究。"],["廖院長俊智：我們沒有做這方面的研究。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有啦！"],["廖院長俊智：大概就只有一位同仁。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你是2016年上任，在2018年中研院環境變遷中心有進行一項研究去了解風機低頻噪音對心臟的不利影響，不好意思，我這個標題講得比較短，你等我敘述內容好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：居民經過兩年的監測紀錄，發現長期接收低頻噪音後居民心律的變異顯著增加。心律變異可能會引起頭痛、難以集中注意力、易怒、疲勞、頭暈，這是這個研究所指出的。好，最後我要講的是，你們有這樣的研究，大概是10月左右才出來的這份研究，那你們有沒有去建議政府？他們會不會採納？在後續有沒有什麼樣的具體作為？我們希望在會後能夠提供給我，你們的研究很好，但是政府有沒有採納？政府有沒有實際去做這些事情？我們在後續都要來追蹤，這個部分麻煩你。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["主席：好，那就請院長後續再跟羅委員報告。謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，院長請回。","我們的質詢都已經結束，關於今日會議作如下決議：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。四、112年度及113年度中央政府總預算，有關中央研究院主管預算解凍案2案業已審查完竣，准予動支，提報院會。五、114年度中央政府總預算案，有關中央研究院單位預算案、中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案，相關提案請於11月18日下午2時前提出，另訂期繼續審查。","報告委員會，今天議程處理完畢，現在休息，謝謝各位。","休息（12時35分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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學程，但是我們是採菁英主義，所以我們不跟大學競爭！大學是以量取勝，我們是做一些大學比較少做的或是沒辦法做的，跟大學一起合作。人文講座也是一樣，我們是幫大學，特別是那些醫科為主的大學，沒有辦法開設人文方面的課程，同時他們也要求是採菁英主義，比較小班制，這樣學生跟老師的互動才會好，所以我們從這方面也跟大學做了一些區隔。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這是本席給你的建議，你們可以再思考看看，採菁英主義固然沒有錯，但大學裡的通識課程是不是就已經可以滿足了？何況確實實際的成效很差，選修的人數也非常少，這個問題之後有機會再跟院長溝通，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["主席：院長請回。"],["翁委員曉玲：不好意思，麻煩請他們提供相關分析報告，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢。","再來請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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升級為橙色國人要慎重考慮必要性9月的時候海基會秘書長羅文嘉也說到大陸風險日增"},{"start":303.562,"end":327.636,"text":"除非有不得不去的必要性減少前往大陸可是中研院的科研基金光大陸運費又增加5倍我想要澄清一下這個是不是跟回到疫情前的狀況疫情去年就結束了去年你的經費跟今年經費就差5倍還有我們的經費都是由下而上編列就是看研究人員的需求"},{"start":328.877,"end":329.037,"text":"愿长请回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":821,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時59分）主席，我剛剛其實特別關心你的質詢。因為你質詢完以後，我發現你逾時了2分32秒。為什麼？因為教文委員會大概是我參加的委員會中最……"],["主席：不是我擔任主席的時候。"],["羅委員智強：不是，是最嚴格執行別的委員的質詢時間，所以我剛剛看了你的逾時，還特別算了一下，有2分32秒。當然，你也知道我現在都還滿遵守主席的約定時間。","我們先請廖院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：院長好。我一直對中研院當然是非常推崇、尊敬的，但是我們立法委員審查預算，其實我也把中研院的預算看得滿仔細的，也看到滿多問題，但是因為時間有限，我就針對幾個問題來就教。錢當然要用在刀口上，雖然中研院是一個很重要的單位，但還是要好好的來使用預算，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你，中研院為了要提高國際傑出人才來臺的意願，從2002年起就辦理國際研究生學程，採全英文教學，跟10所大學合作13項學程，這也就是所謂TIGP的計畫，是不是？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教一下，因為我去查你們近五年的資料，基本上你們有針對相關的計畫列預算，但是其實我們預算審查的基準就是看績效，可是我突然發現近五年TIGP每年招生人數是多少？結業生的人數是多少？"],["廖院長俊智：請國際處長。"],["羅委員智強：近五年。"],["孟處長子青：報告委員，每年招生的人數大概120人左右。"],["羅委員智強：120人嘛！沒什麼大變化就對了？"],["孟處長子青：對。"],["羅委員智強：那我先提醒一下，因為我找不到這個資料，我只看到你們給的總數，總數的話我就沒辦法對應每年的預算狀況。"],["孟處長子青：是。"],["羅委員智強：我想再請教一下，你說大概每年就120人，沒什麼變動，對不對？"],["孟處長子青：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是我看你們所謂TIGP的計畫裡面有一個招生宣傳廣告，我想請教113年度你編的廣告費是多少？"],["孟處長子青：113年度是編20萬。"],["羅委員智強：20萬？那114年度編多少？"],["孟處長子青：那邊編了200萬，但是有180萬是保留給我們所中心其他的單位使用的……"],["羅委員智強：我就是要問這件事情。你為什麼是把這個計畫保留給所中心其他的單位？因為在預算表呈現出來的，我就看到增加10倍，院長，如果今天立法委員審預算，我看到一個廣告預算突然增加變10倍，但你基本上過去的五年人數沒增長，院長，你會不會覺得有點奇怪？對啊！所以我請你把細部報告給我，到底為什麼你今天要把別的單位的預算放在這個地方來擴編，變成是10倍？這看起來數字就很奇怪，對不對？"],["孟處長子青：是，報告委員，因為這個預算是管制項目，那在所中心，他們在編列的時候過去沒有這樣子的一個作法，因為國際處每年都會……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你這樣子其實叫我們立法委員很難審預算。你過去沒有這樣的作法，結果你現在……聽起來不就是便宜行事嗎？你該編在哪個地方的科目，就編在哪個地方，不要混到今天不該編的預算科目裡面。"],["孟處長子青：了解，是。"],["羅委員智強：所以這個預算到我手上，你叫我怎麼辦？我要凍結還是要刪除？因為跟過去比就是不合理。如果你的績效有增加，你的預算增加，我就有一個審核的依據嘛！"],["孟處長子青：了解。"],["羅委員智強：但看起來又沒有，平白增加10倍的預算，當然大家就會有意見。"],["孟處長子青：是，會再說明清楚。"],["羅委員智強：第二個，我看到另外一個問題。基本上，我看到預算書裡中研院的科學研究基金113年度跟114年大幅的增加，其中我覺得幾個關鍵，就是國外旅運費114年度跟去年比增加將近七成，這是國外的部分；其中又有一個特別的地方就是大陸的旅費也增加了多少倍？請問一下，院長知道嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：要請主計來回答。"],["羅委員智強：我直接講，大陸旅費增加5倍，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["羅主任友聰：業務的需要，就是……"],["羅委員智強：我唸一段話給您聽，因為聽起來就非常的矛盾。我不是說不支持，而是你到底為什麼今天突然增加5倍，以前沒有？今年6月行政院才說赴陸旅遊警示升級為橙色，國人要慎重考慮必要性；9月時海基會秘書長羅文嘉也說，到大陸風險日增，除非有不得不去的必要性，減少前往大陸。可是中研院的科研基金，光是大陸旅運費又增加5倍？"],["廖院長俊智：我想要澄清一下這個是不是跟回到疫情前的狀況……"],["羅委員智強：疫情去年就結束了，去年你的經費跟今年的經費就差5倍……"],["廖院長俊智：可能是逐步增加，還有我們的經費都是由下而上編列，就是看研究人員的需求……"],["羅委員智強：院長，因為時間有限。說真的，我正在看預算書，我看到中研院滿多類似的狀況，就是不合理！你要增加到10倍、5倍，我們立法院審預算，我當然看了就覺得很奇怪，而且有些金額並不算少。所以拜託，把為什麼增加5倍的原因，事後給我一個報告，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝院長，謝謝。"],["主席：院長請回，謝謝羅智強委員的質詢。","再來是賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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of conduct"},{"start":196.169,"end":211.766,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":211.926,"end":214.189,"text":" bicy、博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士"},{"start":229.85,"end":258.721,"text":"跟聯合國教科文組織的相關的ethic。然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範。還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神還增加了增進人類福祉確保永續環境。第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊。"},{"start":262.323,"end":277.416,"text":"第7條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與預算時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第7條因為前面都是一個進步可是第7條好像把這個責任"},{"start":278.677,"end":280.838,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":309.359,"end":309.52,"text":"院長覺得"},{"start":310.868,"end":338.586,"text":"跟委員報告一下中研院有兩個部分是一個是我們實體的研究單位我是院長來負責中理所有的院務另外一個是院事會議是我當主席那裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的是所以裡面的條文不是中研院定的"},{"start":339.086,"end":346.288,"text":"而是院士透過院士會議的基金。我知道,院長剛剛一直說,院士是榮譽職。我們知道他是終身榮譽職。可是這個行為準則出來之後,我還有看到新聞有舉例說,你們的新聞處對外說他跟諾貝爾講一樣,所以沒有這種取消的事。那我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對啦。"},{"start":362.791,"end":381.724,"text":"因為你們第8條就講中央研究院院士職權如下一、選舉院士及名譽院士二、選舉評議會這個評議會就是您剛講的中研院非常重要的學術評議會它幾乎是很多事情除了你們的所長在座都是的話那其實院士有這個職權"},{"start":382.885,"end":408.342,"text":"還可以籌議國家學術研究方針第四個委託案可能有或沒有我想舉的例子就是右邊這邊舉一些例子讓大家感受院士會不會沒有爭議我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議因為我們有298位可是不排除過去真的有爭議郭惠在2019年香港城市大學擔任校長的學生被港警濫射濫捕關鍵時刻神隱"},{"start":410.763,"end":436.261,"text":"我覺得看起來神隱還算是有一些道德良知啦那張翔從2019年到2021年他也是我們的院士在港大校長任內打壓大學自主學生自治涉及他收回了學生會的辦公室還有不承認學生會的地位所以港大因此就沒有學生會那我們不用講他發生學生抗議的時候的一些衝突"},{"start":437.182,"end":458.767,"text":"比起郭衛他在關鍵時刻消失張翔顯然更不重視學術自由跟言論自由那剛剛講你們的第一條就是中央研究院院士之研究秉持學術自由之精神我知道院長不方便得罪院士那我想這樣的事情中研院有研究員已經開記者會覺得應該撤銷類似張翔這樣的一個院士行為"},{"start":464.628,"end":482.309,"text":"但是你們的行為準則連一個調查申訴機制都沒有是不是讓大家覺得他們有自律嗎?然後更不用講張翔我看他的發言他都說他是為他的香港大學帶領一下為中國而立中國必須有戰略定位"},{"start":482.91,"end":483.951,"text":" bicy,您覺得這個自律有用嗎?"},{"start":501.513,"end":526.905,"text":"我想這個院士雖然有這個職權說籌議國家學術研究方針可是大部分我們國家的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議那中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係沒有直接的關係他們是選評議員他不是來制定中研院的政策中研院政策在場的所有人負責"},{"start":527.645,"end":535.878,"text":"在場的向立法院負責不是院士來負責所以您的意思是說院士沒有什麼功能嗎?"},{"start":537.304,"end":541.085,"text":"不能這樣講就是像說他有這些這個職權他可以提出他的想法我們可以適當的尊重他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛這點您不否認沒錯那院士的組成也會影響院長是誰嘛您也不否認對不一定不一定我知道那個總統也有一定的權責不是這樣說"},{"start":563.55,"end":576.235,"text":"院士不是直接選舉院長是評議員透過一個領選小組來選不是院士是評議員裡面選出來的領選小組到底中研院院士有沒有實質的影響力我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題那我跟院長的意見並不一樣但是我尊重您那我今天只要求一個就是社會科學的一個思辨過程是不是"},{"start":591.561,"end":614.775,"text":"中研院因為我看到的英國國家科學院英國國家學術院澳洲科學院還有我自己的辦公室去研究的美國科學院針對他們的院士都有講到就是有一個行為的小組接受申訴那如果違反像剛剛講的你們這寫得非常漂亮的規定的時候他有調查機制也有處理"},{"start":616.736,"end":618.098,"text":"則要求道歉,書面聲明警告,縱則暫時除名,一段時間到完全除名。"},{"start":632.697,"end":657.667,"text":"相關的就是科學院不完全一樣但是我想我們是中央研究院嘛那我也待過中研院我們是不是請院長承諾你們選五個民主國家相近的院士制度分析一下他們相關的違反倫理的時候的處理機制給本席一個報告好嗎我們分析當然可以但是很重要一點跟委員提醒"},{"start":658.507,"end":683.024,"text":"這些都是他們透過他們民主的機制自己定出來的,不是他們院長定的。我知道不是院長您。國籍案我們也做了兩三年,我知道院長有很多的難為之處。您畢竟是院士,就是說出身的。但我想就是說,中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督,您今天就不用來立法院嗎?"},{"start":685.566,"end":694.893,"text":"一個是院士一個是中央研究院的研究單位院士並沒有領薪水他也沒有預算要立法院通過他只是有開會的預算"},{"start":700.037,"end":717.396,"text":"眾議院每年會審的預算是在做研究的這部分跟院士的關係是非常微弱只有建議性院士提供一些學術上的資訊只有院士能夠自律就像之前我主張眾議院的院士國籍違反眾議院組織法第8條我們大概"},{"start":720.299,"end":746.021,"text":"做了四年的時間我一個任期四年才完成這件事我知道院長也非常的辛苦很多院士拒絕改變可是我們依法論法好不好所以我現在要做的事情只是說那中營院宣稱說別的國家跟我們不一樣那是不是選擇五個民主國家相關的院士制度那給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理的時候的機制好嗎"},{"start":746.661,"end":753.969,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時44分）謝謝主席。有請院長。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：院長辛苦了。也謝謝院長在我之前質詢的院士國籍案有非常詳細的說明，我們今天解凍報告裡面就說明得很清楚，我知道這個非常的艱困，謝謝院長。今天其實是針對另外一個問題想請教院長，想請問院長，如果有一群人訂定一個自律規範，可是訂定的時候卻沒有訂定違反規定時的處理機制，那你覺得這個規範會有用嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想這個主要是靠個人的自我約束。"],["范委員雲：靠個人自我約束……"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["范委員雲：就有用了？"],["廖院長俊智：當然不保證說百分之百，但是這是第一步，畢竟這是一個透過民主的機制制定出來的，沒有辦法用其他方法輕易來改變。"],["范委員雲：照院長這樣的說法，中研院對於員工的性騷、權勢等等，就只要訂規範，都不用訂申訴跟處理機制？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，因為這種是可以從行政面來處理的，我們有不同的法規可以來做。"],["范委員雲：所以您覺得我們對院士跟對研究員可以用不同的標準？對院士的話，大家訂了規範就會自己遵行；可是對研究員的話，因為他們的層級比較低，所以就必須訂定處理機制嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不是，因為大部分的院士不在本院任職，假如院士在本院任職，仍然是受我們所有院裡面的規範來限制，所以不需要用這個……"],["范委員雲：因為院士大部分不在本院任職……"],["廖院長俊智：沒錯。"],["范委員雲：所以我們的規範……"],["廖院長俊智：因為它只是一個榮譽職，他並不是在本院的人員，我們沒辦法約束不在本院支薪、不在本院工作、不是本院人員……"],["范委員雲：所以院長認為我們無法約束中華民國院士的行為，是這樣嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是要靠院士會議的……"],["范委員雲：靠院士自律？"],["廖院長俊智：院士會議自己的運作，程序的運作。"],["范委員雲：其實今天就是想跟院長溝通這個問題，我想我們有不同的意見，沒關係，這可以來處理。院長應該記得，其實不是只有今年3月，我從2021年就針對這一題質詢，然後2023年用預算追蹤。今年3月我一直在問，其他國家的院士都有行為倫理準則，也有相關規定，包含揭露財產來源、利益迴避、不得歧視、騷擾、霸凌等，還有傷害學術自由等部分，希望中研院也能夠有這種倫理行為準則，就是英文講的code of conduct。我還是要謝謝院長有推動這個部分，因為你們給我的回復，終於……因為之前因為疫情，終於在今年7月修改。修改前你們有告訴我們說，你們相關的委員會裡面，然後因為會中意見多元，尚未獲得共識，所以顯然裡面是有一些爭吵、有不同的意見，我覺得是好事，後來決定要擴大參與繼續研議。最後你們參考了國內外學術研究機構，列出來就兩個，美國國家科學院跟聯合國教科文組織相關，然後你們會納入人工智慧、生物科技等倫理規範，還有揭露研究結果可能涉及的個人利益關係跟財務得失。我對照一下你們今年7月修過的，的確第一條增加了除了學術自由之精神，還增加了增進人類福祉，確保永續環境；第三條寫到研究成果有利益衝突的時候，應該揭露可能涉及的相關資訊；第七條，我覺得第七條寫說院士應遵守自身聘僱機關及研究贊助單位對研究相關行為規範與違反時的處置辦法。我是覺得最可惜的就是第七條，因為前面都是進步，可是第七條好像把這個責任丟給了他原本的聘任機關跟研究贊助單位。就像院長講的，我們很多院士是在其他國家任職，那我想要舉例，那個國家如果是民主國家，我們有些院士也是別的民主國家的院士，對不對？那可能他的機制我們可以信任。如果有院士擔任威權國家的學術工作，而那個威權國家就是不處理的話，院長覺得會不會是個問題？"],["廖院長俊智：跟委員報告一下，中研院有兩個部分：一個是我們實體的研究單位，我是院長來負責綜理所有的院務；另外一個是院士會議，我當主席，裡面的所有機制跟我們院務事實上是分開的，所以裡面的條文不是中研院訂的，而是院士透過院士會議的機制來訂的。"],["范委員雲：我知道。院長剛剛一直說院士是榮譽職，我們知道他是終身榮譽職，可是這個行為準則出來之後，我還看到新聞有舉例，你們的新聞處對外說，他跟諾貝爾獎一樣，所以沒有這種取消的事。我覺得這個比喻以我來看好像不太對，因為你們第八條就講，「中央研究院院士職權如下：一、選舉院士及名譽院士。二、選舉評議員。」這個「評議員」就是您剛剛講的，中研院非常重要的學術評議會成員，幾乎與很多事情有關，除了你們在座的所長都是之外，其實院士有這個職權。還可以「籌議國家學術研究方針」，第四個涉及委託案可能有或沒有。","我想舉的例子就是，右邊這邊所舉的例子就是讓大家感受，院士會不會沒有爭議。我們想像院士應該多數沒有爭議，因為有298位院士，可是不能排除過去真的有爭議的！郭位2019年在香港城市大學擔任校長，但學生被港警濫射、濫捕的關鍵時刻卻神隱，我覺得「神穩」看起來還算是有一些道德良知啦！張翔從2019年到2021年，他也是我們的院士，在港大校長任內打壓大學自主、學生自治，涉及收回學生會的辦公室，還有不承認學生會的地位，所以港大因此就沒有學生會，更不用講他在學生發生抗議時的一些衝突。比起郭位在關鍵時刻消失，張翔顯然更不重視學術自由跟言論自由。","剛剛講，你們的第一條就是中央研究院院士之研究秉持學術自由之精神。我知道院長不方便得罪院士，但這樣的事情中研院有研究員已經開記者會，覺得應該撤銷張翔的院士職，可是你們的行為準則連一個調查、申訴機制都沒有，是不是會讓大家質疑他們有自律嗎？然後就更不用講，我看張翔的發言，他說他是為了中國為了他所帶領的香港大學，因為中國必須有戰略定位。然後港大在發展AI，中研院也有在發展AI，依照你們的這個……我當然不是說他就不能夠參與相關的研究，他其實應該揭露，尤其在中研院進行AI相關決策的時候，他應該利益回避嘛！再請問院長，您覺得這個自律有用嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我想院士雖然有「籌議國家學術研究方針」的職權，可是我們國家大部分的學術研究方針不是靠院士來籌議，他可以建議……"],["范委員雲：對，中研院的方針跟評議員有沒有關係？"],["廖院長俊智：沒有直接的關係，他們是選評議員，而不是來制定中研院的政策。中研院的政策是由在場的所有人負責，而在場的向立法院負責，不是院士來負責。"],["范委員雲：所以您的意思是說，院士沒有什麼功能嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：不能這樣講。他有這些職權，他可以提出他的想法，我們給予適當地尊重，但是……"],["范委員雲：他至少對選舉未來的院士很有影響力嘛！"],["廖院長俊智：對，這個是……"],["范委員雲：這點您不否認？"],["廖院長俊智：對，沒錯。"],["范委員雲：院士的組成也會影響院長是誰，您也不否認？"],["廖院長俊智：這也不一定。"],["范委員雲：不一定？"],["廖院長俊智：不一定，因為院士……"],["范委員雲：我知道總統也有一定的權責。"],["廖院長俊智：不是這樣說。院士不是直接選舉院長，而是評議員透過一個遴選小組來選，不是院士，而是評論員裡面選出遴選小組……"],["范委員雲：中研院院士到底有沒有實質的影響力？我覺得這是一個社會科學的問題，我跟院長的意見並不一樣，但是我尊重您。我今天只要求一個社會科學的思辨過程。是不是中研院……因為我看到英國國家學術院、澳洲科學院，還有我自己的辦公室研究的美國科學院，針對他們的院士都有講到，The Conduct Committee 有一個行為的小組接受申訴，如果違反了像剛剛講的，也就是你們這些寫得非常漂亮的規定時，它有調查機制也有處理，輕則要求道歉、書面聲明、警告，重則就是暫時除名一段時間，甚至到完全除名。","我想，也許你會說我們的制度跟英國國家學術院、澳洲科學院、美國等相關的科學院不完全一樣，但我想我們是中央研究院，我也待過中研院，我們是不是請院長承諾，你們選5個民主國家相近的院士制度，分析一下他們違反倫理時的相關處理機制，給本席一個報告好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，要我們分析當然可以，但是很重要一點要跟委員提醒，這些都是他們透過民主的機制自己定出來的，而不是他們院長定的，沒有一個院長可以定這些。"],["范委員雲：當然我知道不是院長您……國籍案我們也做了兩、三年，我知道院長有很多的難為之處，您畢竟是院士出身的。但我想中央研究院如果不需要有外部監督，您今天就不用來立法院了，對不對？"],["廖院長俊智：這個不一樣！這個一個是院士，一個是中央研究院的研究單位，院士並沒有領薪水。"],["范委員雲：我知道，院士也可以……"],["廖院長俊智：他也沒有budget（預算）要立法院通過，只是有開會的預算。"],["范委員雲：瞭解。"],["廖院長俊智：我們中研院每年要審的預算是要來做研究的，這部分跟院士的關係非常微弱，只有建議性，院士提供一些學術上的諮詢……"],["范委員雲：我知道，只有院士能夠自律，就像之前我主張中研究院士的國籍違反中央研究院組織法第八條，我們大概做了4年的時間，我一個任期4年才完成這件事。我知道院長也非常地辛苦，很多院士拒絕改變，可是我們依法論法，好不好？所以我現在要做的事情是，既然中研院宣稱別的國家跟我們不一樣，那是不是選擇5個民主國家相關的院士制度，給本席一個他們怎麼去處理違反相關倫理時的機制好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，我們可以提出分析報告。"],["范委員雲：OK，做分析就好了，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：好。"],["范委員雲：謝謝院長，辛苦了。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲召委的質詢，謝謝院長。"],["主席（范委員雲）：謝謝秀寳委員代理主持。","我們現在必須先處理解凍案，請羅智強委員再等一下。","請議事人員宣讀，我們再來進行討論跟協商。","一、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案。","二、審查中央研究院函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在處理「中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目『一般學術研究及評議』預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案」，這個案子在場的委員有沒有任何的意見？"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["主席：謝謝。因為第一案就是國籍案，寫得非常清楚。我要特別謝謝，雖然剛剛又提出了新的問題，但還是謝謝你們，我知道非常地艱難而你們處理了，讓我們未來院士的國籍都能夠依照中央研究院組織法第八條辦理，謝謝。所以這個案子我們就准予動支，提報院會，解凍案第一案審查完畢。","現在審查第二案。第二案是「113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)『自然及人文社會科學研究』預算凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案」。有沒有任何委員有任何意見？"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["主席：謝謝。我們這兩案都審查完畢，准予動支，提報院會。","再來我們請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}},{"id":"156683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69fb056f8e8dbc870b9cdcaed4cc0e83fd5a02e3bc7edb1fcc3a2f0af228fb527a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:34:19 - 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一些研討，我們是不是請專家來說明？"],["詹副主任大千：報告委員，我是人社中心詹大千。我們今年在5月之後，經過委員的建議之後，我們有開始盤點我們人社在這方面的人口老化議題，我們目前舉辦了三次演講，包括聚焦在勞動力參與、包括在經濟的改革、包括健康方面的問題，所以我們陸續還有三場，後續會提出一些比較具體的方案再做建議，謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：OK！很好，謝謝，非常期待。其實這個問題的嚴重，各位專家應該都比我更加的了解，我們65歲的老人人口比例，各位可以看下面藍色的部分，就是占的人口比例，2024年其實各國都差不多，跟歐美之間相比，我們甚至比他們還好一點；但是大家可以看到2070年的時候，歐美還是留在二字頭，老人人口還是占百分之二十幾，我們已經到了46%，我們已經超越日本，日本才38%。這是天翻地覆的問題，我們國內經常會說全世界都沒有在重視，我們臺灣習慣走在全世界的後面，尾隨人家，但是這件事情我們是要走在全世界的最前面，這需要我們的學者也要有這種觀念，因為我們的問題最嚴重。工作人口也是一樣，這一頁是工作人口，工作人口所占的比例，藍色的部分是2024年，我們現在還是有69.1%，但是到了2070年會只剩下46.6%，我們看到歐美各國大概都是五、六十，我們的競爭力又會更低了，連日本都還有百分之五十幾。我們的扶養比大家看到目前是3.6，未來下一代一定會被我們壓垮。這個問題被稱為是教育問題、國防問題、社福問題、經濟問題，全面性崩潰的問題，甚至有人說有三分之一的臺灣鄉鎮會變鬼城，會被消滅！這些都是何等大的問題，我覺得行政部門眼光沒有那麼遠，眼光都是看在眼前！老實講不僅是眼前，眼光還在過去！我們1970年的人口是金字塔，我們未來是倒金字塔；但是我們現在行政部門的政策大概都還是用1970年金字塔的思維在訂政策。這個要把它叫醒，真的是要靠學術單位喚醒，振聾發聵，學術單位也覺得這個不重要的話，那我們大家就都在睡覺。","少子化的問題，這一次調查出來提早了15年，本來估計是2054年，這一次預估到2040年就會跌破10萬人。然後我們每年投入1,200億想要翻轉少子化，但是我們的少子化還提早15年，顯見是什麼？政策方向錯誤、對策方向錯誤，但是到底要怎麼做？我們現在大概都是用補助的方法，能不能請學術單位也提出你們的研究觀察？再來就是我們的社會，高齡化已經定型了，這個問題不可逆轉，未來我們的工作人口會消失將近千萬人、八百多萬人，這影響的是市場、企業、稅負、扶養、消費衰退，全面性這麼大的影響。所以在這個問題上面，可不可以請院長就這三方面……當然學術是自由的，但是可以引導大家來關注，從教育的層面、從經濟的層面、從勞工的層面來。我想中研院最重要的宗旨就是善盡社會關鍵的責任，這問題絕對是關鍵，也只有智庫有辦法解決這種問題，畢竟我們現在行政單位的眼光沒有辦法看超過10年的事情。這麼大的一個天翻地覆的危機，我怎麼樣都喚不醒這個社會，大家每天吵的都是眼前的事情，是不是能夠請中央學術……接下來我最後是不是能有這樣的期待？是不是可以請中央研究院在三個月之內針對這樣子的少子、超高齡社會來提出一個國家級的研究計畫？這個計畫你能做到什麼地步我沒有意見，但是總是要啟動，要把這個問題當作一個核心的問題來啟動，可不可以在三個月之內給我一份報告，提出你們的構想？"],["廖院長俊智：我們可以在三個月內跟委員……"],["吳委員春城：可以？"],["廖院長俊智：提出我們的構想，不一定能夠開始計畫，但提出一個構想或許可以。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：這個問題確實我個人跟中研院都很關心，但是這方面國內的專家學者恐怕人數也不多，所以有點實際的困難，但是我們仍然會朝這方向……"],["吳委員春城：對，登高一呼嘛！要社會各方面來關注這個議題，那三個月就拜託院長。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝。"],["主席：院長請回，謝謝吳春城委員的質詢。","再來是范雲委員質詢，我們請陳秀寳代主席。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}},{"id":"156678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69f8dbf83f9878c206ecdcaed4cc0e83fd5a02e3bc7edb1fcc3f21262aa761bdb5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:13:16 - 11:24:20","影片長度":"00:11:04","會議時間":"2024-11-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究基金附屬單位預算案。\n四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案。\n五、審查中央研究院函，為113年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議（一）「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案。\n（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答，相關預算提案請於11月18日下午2時前提出）\n【11月11日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-11","start_time":"2024-11-11T11:13:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-11T11:24:20+08:00","duration":664,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":6.966593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.695343750000003,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.68659375,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.972843750000003,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.03721875,"end":41.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.729093750000004,"end":41.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.20284375000001,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.65409375,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.687843750000006,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":66.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.42096875,"end":70.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.66971875,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.78909375,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.40784375000001,"end":121.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.78409375000001,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.88909375,"end":127.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.24721875,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.85784375,"end":137.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.00096875,"end":146.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.65784375,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.77159375000002,"end":155.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.68596875,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.12471875,"end":176.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.26909375000002,"end":225.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.70471875,"end":225.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.13909375,"end":229.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.29471875000002,"end":229.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.98659375000003,"end":233.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.89346875,"end":235.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.08284375000002,"end":249.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.20034375,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.78096875000003,"end":253.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.78471875000002,"end":254.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.43409375000002,"end":260.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.05346875000004,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.38096875,"end":281.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.53159375,"end":280.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.75909375000003,"end":282.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.33284375,"end":282.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.90659375,"end":323.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.35596875000005,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.54534375000003,"end":327.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.62971875,"end":326.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.22034375000004,"end":348.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.64034375,"end":341.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.52909375,"end":350.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.71034375000005,"end":354.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.77721875000003,"end":363.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.38346875,"end":415.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.06721875000005,"end":422.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.17159375,"end":438.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.66284375000004,"end":439.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.48971875,"end":460.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.57409375000003,"end":439.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.80284375,"end":461.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.03909375,"end":464.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.08971875000003,"end":461.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.76409375000003,"end":489.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.38471875000005,"end":501.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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bicyclone"},{"start":138.112,"end":139.253,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":156.808,"end":174.482,"text":"數理科學組生命科學組跟人文社會組那目前看起來人文社會組的場次呢我還是希望說我們是不是可以有一點點的增加因為我們現在可能都比較偏向科技類的東西我們是不是可以再微調多一點點的人文科技的人文的這個社會學的這個領域"},{"start":177.321,"end":193.741,"text":"那我也看到了一下就是說其實大家當天的滿意度也都是非常高就是大概有96成的民眾是滿意這次的活動那有97%的民眾都是表達我明年有意願再來參與這樣子的一個活動形式不過我還是想從這幾個數據來跟院長再多做一些討論啦就是說"},{"start":197.225,"end":225.615,"text":"我們的人次雖然增加了很多但是我們的參與度比較多還是來自於北部嘛我想這也是受限於場域的關係但我也知道11月9號也不過就是前天昨天前天對前天我們在南部也辦了這樣子的一個活動那之後不知道何時會有這些相關的數據問卷調查的結果是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室讓我們來了解我們是不是可以吸引到更有沒有更多的孩子一起來參與大概多久會有"},{"start":227.136,"end":254.054,"text":"多久會有?報告委員我這邊已經有初步的資料那南部呢?南部的調查的結果滿意度如何呢?對我們的滿意度也是高達98%那有96%表示願意明年再來那麼我們這個以這個人次而言呢今年的人次也超過了兩萬五千人次以上兩萬五千人次那今年有多少場次呢?在南部有三十五個場次"},{"start":255.495,"end":281.321,"text":"那我覺得從這個數據可以看到你看喔你35場次你吸引了25000人那可是我們25000人次嘛對不對那我們北部是100個場次吸引了5萬多人表示南部的吸引力非常大欸對不對更多人來嘛對不對你辦35場就來25000人所以我也希望明年這個需求很大市場需求蓬勃發展啦好不好我們一起來努力明年開南部更多的場次"},{"start":283.321,"end":304.886,"text":"再來就是說我們在這個我希望明年做的問卷調查我們可以在更詳盡的看到縣市的差異我們就可以了解到說是不是都非常集中在雙北我們是不是可以要多做一點宣傳在新竹那南部市只有集中在台南我們要怎麼樣拓展到高雄讓這個涵蓋率可以再更大一點不過我還有一件事情想要跟院長再來繼續討論就是說"},{"start":306.186,"end":327.261,"text":"對。"},{"start":327.381,"end":354.185,"text":"那我也在想說我們戶外的空間是不是也可以做一些規劃因為小孩子在裡面等久了他想要出去跑一跑玩一玩我們是不是也有一些活動的規劃在外面讓小孩子可以短暫的去休息一下而不是站在那邊一直等這是不是也可以一併的來調整那這些精進的方案是不是有可能在多久一個月時間呢提供給我還是兩個月報告員秘書處長曾國祥可以在一個月以內提供給你"},{"start":354.824,"end":370.304,"text":"好 謝謝那再來我還有一點也是想要再做討論的就是說我們其實有希望可以了解兒童的聲音因為這是第一次做6到12歲的部分嘛那但是我看了一下問卷回收只有17%是由兒童來填答的那我在想我們是不是因為我自己其實看了這個內容齁"},{"start":371.786,"end":373.447,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":394.5,"end":415.225,"text":"我到底我剛參加那一場到底跟你看生物化學研究室跟生物醫學科學研究室跟分子生物研究室小孩子的理解就是欸都有生物那到底我剛參加的是哪一場可能會搞不清楚我們是不是可以根據兒童的理解他們的視角來重新設計這份問卷明年才能夠去收集更多兒童真實的心聲呢"},{"start":416.087,"end":438.858,"text":"好,這個我們會再多做討論,並且請一些專家來幫忙,這可能不是我們的專業。好,沒關係,這個部分的話我也非常願意來跟中研院一起來討論,因為這剛好是我過去的專業。然後我最近的,剛好我去年做的一個案例呢,今年也剛好最近要頒獎了,得到一個影響力對話獎。所以我非常願意來協助中研院。好,謝謝委員。"},{"start":440.138,"end":464.39,"text":"再來就是說我們的科普日再進一步的在這個部分我們除了做問卷之外我們是不是可以這一次針對今年已經參加過的小孩我們可以來招募他們一起來做一個小型的執畫研究或是focus group的部分來了解明年我們可以怎麼樣更精進搞不好他們的意見就可以反映在我們的問卷裡面這部分我們是不是也可以一起來討論看起來我覺得院長都笑得很開心現場也都笑得很開心應該是沒有問題吧"},{"start":465.796,"end":489.466,"text":"這是看我們人力的規劃狀況我們當然很希望說能夠盡量投注但畢竟我們人力有限我們主要的工作仍然是在研究同仁都已經很有熱忱的播出時間來做這方面我們要看說我們怎麼樣把這個做得不再不影響研究的狀況之下把這做得更好"},{"start":490.421,"end":517.059,"text":"好喔,因為我想中研院一定也有做很多人文科學研究的專家啦。那也許我們也可以在這個一個月一併討論的,剛剛是說一個月之內提供給我一些精進的方案嘛。我們是不是也可以把這件事情納入來,或者是說約我們辦公室,我們再來詳細的討論,看我們可以怎麼樣子的來做,在不影響大家的工作的狀況之下,好嗎?好,謝謝。那再來就是說,再來我想要跟,我先跳舞一下好了,因為我時間可能不太夠。"},{"start":519.229,"end":544.844,"text":"就是說針對還是人文科學這個領域就是說我們現在在中研院其實是之前在受訪的時候有提到說因為這個AI會這個我們這個中研院有豐富的人文社會資料庫我們應該重視人文AI在人文社會科學領域的應用並反思AI對人類社會的衝擊那您也有提到說大量使用AI會牽扯到法律倫理道德等等的問題所以這就是為什麼我們要辦"},{"start":546.305,"end":572.039,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":572.259,"end":601.416,"text":"我想問一下您目前對這個辦公室的規劃是什麼樣?可不可以簡單說明一下?對,我們這個辦公室有很多個區塊那比如AI合作社幫現在已經有的團隊來解決AI上的問題同時我們也積極規劃很多的訓練課程來訓練我們的研究人員及所有中央研究院的同仁包括行政同仁跟研究助理都一起來了解AI怎麼樣把AI用在實際的工作上面。報告時候院長我想要針對在人設領域的部分"},{"start":602.737,"end":621.689,"text":"我們也規劃一些專題的專案的研究把我們現有的資料庫怎麼樣AI化在AI化之前一定要有一個能夠用AI來自動辨識一些古籍能夠做這個字體的辨識這個是非常困難但是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":621.829,"end":623.33,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":639.991,"end":664.411,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時13分）謝謝主席。有請院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝院長。院長應該也非常了解我非常關注兒童，所以上次在兒童科普日還有院區開放日的時候，不管是我或是我們的助理其實都有去。現場我可以感受到我們的研究人員、我們這些院士對小孩的熱情跟傳授知識的那一種積極的態度，還有幫孩子去規劃整個空間的那一種樣子，那個模樣我真的非常感動，我也非常高興。聽說去年只有70個場次，可是今年增加了30場，到了100個場次，我也看到吸引了非常多的小孩、家長來到現場。","跟大家分享，我當天一到現場，其實我9點半到，9點半活動才開始，我在外面就聽到家長說快、快、快，我們要趕快去，明年要再早點到。我就想說奇怪，不是9點半才開始嗎？到底還要多早？所以我想這也是給大家一個肯定，就是大家的付出，雖然有些地方不一定能夠從問卷上面呈現，但這是我在場內的第一手資訊，所以也希望可以鼓勵大家明年持續的投入。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，我也看到因為今年好像才有做這個統計，到底這些活動領域是屬於哪一個組，是數理科學組、生命科學組跟人文社會組。目前看起來人文社會組的場次，我還是希望可以有一點點的增加，因為我們現在可能都是比較偏向科技類的東西，我們是不是可以再微調多一點點的人文社會學的領域？","我也看到大家對當天的滿意度也都非常高，大概有96%的民眾滿意這次的活動，有97%的民眾表達他明年有意願再來參與這樣子的活動形式，不過我還是想要從這幾個數據來跟院長再多做一些討論。我們的人次雖然增加了很多，但是我們的參與度比較多還是來自於北部，我想這也是受限於場域的關係，但我也知道11月9號，就是前天，我們在南部也辦了這樣子的活動，之後不知道何時會有這些相關的數據、問卷調查的結果？是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室，讓我們來了解是不是可以吸引到更多孩子一起來參與？大概多久？"],["廖院長俊智：會，我們會提供，至於多久會有……"],["曾處長國祥：報告委員，我這邊已經有初步的資料……"],["張委員雅琳：那南部呢？南部的調查的結果，其滿意度如何呢？"],["曾處長國祥：我們的滿意度也是高達98%，有96%表示願意明年再來；以人次而言，今年的人次也超過了2萬5,000人次，以上。"],["張委員雅琳：那今年在南部院區有多少場次呢？"],["曾處長國祥：南部有35個場次。"],["張委員雅琳：你看喔，從這個數據可以看到，35個場次吸引了2萬5,000人次嘛，對不對？北部是100個場次吸引了五萬多人，表示南部的吸引力非常大，對不對？更多人來嘛，你辦35場就來了2萬5,000人，所以我也希望明年……這個需求很大，市場需求蓬勃發展啦，好不好？我們一起來努力，明年南部開更多的場次。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，我希望明年做的問卷調查可以再更詳盡地看到縣市的差異，我們就可以再了解是不是都非常集中在雙北，我們是不是要多做一點宣傳，在新竹啦，南部是不是只有集中在臺南，我們要怎麼樣拓展到高雄，讓涵蓋率可以再更大一點。不過我還有一件事情想要跟院長再來繼續討論，當天我去現場的時候，因為人次真的非常多，我們明年是不是可以來考量我們的動線設計，不要讓家長跟小孩在現場一直等，然後排隊排很長，也阻擾了整個行走的動線，這部分是不是有沒有可能來做一些調整呢？"],["廖院長俊智：這當然是可以規劃、可以考量的。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我也在想戶外的空間是不是也可以做一些規劃？因為小孩子在裡面等久了，他想要出去跑一跑、玩一玩，是不是也可以有一些在外面的活動規劃，讓小孩子可以短暫的去休息一下，而不是站在那邊一直等，這是不是可以一併的來調整？"],["廖院長俊智：這是一個很好的建議，好。"],["張委員雅琳：這些精進的方案是不是有可能在一個月的時間提供給我？還是兩個月？"],["曾處長國祥：報告委員，我是秘書處長曾國祥。可以在一個月以內提供給你。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。再來我還有一點也是想要再做討論的，我們其實很希望可以了解兒童的聲音，因為這是第一次做6到12歲的部分。但是我看了一下問卷回收，只有17%是由兒童來填答，我自己看了這個內容，坦白說，我覺得要6到12歲的小孩來填答，難度似乎有點太高了，現場大家也都了解，我們是不是可以再依據兒童友善的方式來去設計問卷？因為現場我們的手冊都做得很可愛、有注音，可是我們填答的東西全部都是很艱澀的文字，他可能根本也搞不懂剛剛參加的那一場到底是哪一場？像生物化學研究室、生物醫學科學研究室跟分子生物研究室，小孩子的理解就是都有「生物」，那到底我剛剛參加的是哪一場？可能會搞不清楚，我們是不是可以根據兒童的理解、他們的視角來重新設計這份問卷，明年才能夠去收集更多兒童真實的心聲呢？"],["廖院長俊智：好，我們會再多做討論，並且請一些專家來幫忙，這可能不是我們的專業。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，這個部分我也非常願意跟中研院一起來討論，因為這剛好是我過去的專業，剛好我去年做的一個案例最近要頒獎，得到一個影響力對話獎，所以我非常願意來協助中研院。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：再來是科普日，就是再進一步的，在這個部分除了做問卷之外，是不是可以這一次針對今年已經參加過的小孩，可以招募他們一起來做一個小型的質化研究，或是Focus Group的部分，來了解明年可以怎麼樣更精進？搞不好他們的意見就可以反映在問卷裡面，這部分我們是不是也可以一起來討論？看起來我覺得院長都笑得很開心，現場也都笑得很開心，應該是沒有問題吧！"],["廖院長俊智：這要看我們人力的規劃狀況，我們當然很希望能夠儘量投注，但畢竟我們人力有限，我們主要的工作仍然是在研究，同仁都已經很有熱忱的撥出時間來做這方面活動，我們要看怎麼樣在不影響研究的狀況之下把這個做得更好。"],["張委員雅琳：好的。因為我想中研院一定也有很多做人文科學研究的專家，也許我們也可以在一個月內一併討論，剛剛是說一個月之內提供給我一些精進的方案，我們是不是也可以把這件事情納入？或者是跟我們的辦公室約，我們再來詳細的討論，看我們可以怎麼樣來做，在不影響大家的工作狀況之下，好嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，我先往後跳一下，因為我的時間可能不太夠。還是針對人文科學這個領域，之前中研院在受訪時有提到，因為中研院有豐富的人文社會資料庫，我們應該重視AI在人文社會科學領域的應用，並反思AI對人類社會的衝擊。您也有提到大量使用AI會牽扯到法律、倫理、道德等等的問題，所以這就是為什麼我們要辦這個AI辦公室，特別重視在人文社會科學領域的運用，希望可以讓這些本來對人文科學有興趣的學生但是被AI吸走的，可以覺得研究人文社會科學反而是落實AI應用的一個很好的方式。所以我想院長看起來也是滿支持人文科學，應該是要強化去發展，對嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是的、是的。"],["張委員雅琳：那我想問一下，您目前對這個辦公室的規劃是怎麼樣，可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["廖院長俊智：我們這個辦公室有很多個區塊，有AI合作社，幫現在已經有的團隊來解決AI上的問題，同時我們也積極規劃很多的訓練課程來訓練我們的研究人員及所有中研院的同仁，包括行政同仁跟研究助理都一起來了解AI，怎麼樣把AI用在實際的工作上面。"],["張委員雅琳：不好意思，院長，我想要針對人社領域的部分。"],["廖院長俊智：針對人社領域的部分，我們也規劃一些專題、專案的研究，把我們現有的資料庫怎麼樣AI化，在AI化之前，一定要有一個能夠用AI來自動辨識一些古籍，能夠做字體的辨識，這是非常困難但是非常重要的一件事情。"],["張委員雅琳：所以看起來辦公室已經有一些相關的時程了，對嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：古籍的辨識其實是非常重要的，臺灣跟中國畢竟還是有差異，因為中國歷經了文化大革命，非常多中華的研究、文化的研究可能都會在我們的資料庫裡面。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我覺得這一點其實是我們最能夠凸顯華文世界裡面最重要的相關研究，應該都在我們這裡，所以對於這一點，我想要了解我們相關的時程，希望事後也可以提供相關的計畫到我們辦公室，我們一起來努力，讓臺灣成為AI的民主文化中心，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["主席：院長請回，謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢。我們再來請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}},{"id":"156674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/774069080e86b69ff53b3a18addfe5ddcdcaed4cc0e83fd5a02e3bc7edb1fcc363521e5656016d285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:51:37 - 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,{"start":15.138,"end":39.283,"text":"務委員好院長好首先要恭喜院長今年獲選了歐洲分子生物組織也就是EMBO的外籍院士謝謝不只您本人獲選以外我們也代表台灣跟EMBO簽訂了準會員的協定台灣是不是繼亞洲在亞洲是繼新加坡印度之後我們是第三個準會員是的"},{"start":40.083,"end":42.184,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":65.97,"end":88.18,"text":"installation grant,就是幫忙全世界各地的人假如要到臺灣來工作他們可以出一部分的開辦費那臺灣出一部分的開辦費這個對於我們這個吸引人才非常好雖然這個方案還沒有正式通過但是這個AMBO這個組織他們要在會上提出這樣一個方案"},{"start":89.1,"end":106.547,"text":"來看是否所有的會員國是不是都會同意假如同意的話那是對我們招攬人才是很大的幫助特別是分子生物方面的人才這個國際交流非常重要我們也非常期待除了歐洲以外我也看到一個訊息是9月底的時候院長您是不是跟陳建仁院士也是前副總統一起出席了在教廷的中座科學學院會議"},{"start":115.231,"end":116.351,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案"},{"start":142.897,"end":163.389,"text":"教廷科學院的院長也可以來到台灣訪問。這個有沒有後續進一步的討論?他們去年已經來了。對,但是我們當然也歡迎他們繼續來訪問。那我想剛才您提到這位應該是另外一個社會科學院的院長,沒錯。"},{"start":165.49,"end":187.794,"text":"應該社會科學院那還沒有來過社會科學院還沒有來過那這個宗教科學院的來過跟這位書記主教這兩位來過是我想這些國際交流都非常的重要那陳建仁院士是台灣在教廷宗教科學院的第二位院士我們前面還有李遠哲院士"},{"start":188.114,"end":189.315,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":203.151,"end":203.251,"text":"ympt."},{"start":203.251,"end":208.713,"text":"業援之委員也非常關心中研院的國際學術交流。我同等關心重視。但是我要講幾件事。第一個因為剛剛我聽到委員在說那你們的這個國際旅費怎麼會跟前幾年比起來怎麼會增加那麼多。第一個我們支持中研院的國際學術交流所以預算上當然要支持。"},{"start":225.24,"end":231.182,"text":"那旅費我想也要提醒其他委員因為我們過去在市議會這幾年期間疫情期間所有所有的公務部門的這個旅費因為沒辦法出國嘛實際上用不到所以我們都是統三但是保留科目因為我們知道等到疫情過後絕對是要趕快的來進行國際的交流的所以在疫情之後國際交流的旅費就恢復到我們原先的計劃比前幾年增加這是當然的"},{"start":252.588,"end":253.368,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":269.137,"end":288.085,"text":"剛剛前面議員自委員也在說欸怎麼中研院跟中國的學術單位的交流計畫變少了是不是代表台灣不重視中國研究因為我自己碩士是在清大社會所就讀我們所上就有中國研究學程組所以我有很多同學他們每一年都是可能要到中國甚至要做田野調查的"},{"start":288.965,"end":293.808,"text":"台灣的中國研究發展多年不只是清大政大東洋所、台大、國發所、淡大等等其實中國研究是我們的強項所以我覺得要理清一件事情對中國研究的重視不代表就是要跟中國的政府單位做學術交流活動舉例我在清大念書的時候我也代表我們社會所到北京的清華做學術論文的發表交流可是我的論文主題不是中國研究"},{"start":316.98,"end":317.3,"text":"兩件事我認為都同等重要。"},{"start":332.654,"end":335.978,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":351.434,"end":370.88,"text":"科學的進展。所以2021年的時候由國科會、中研院、經濟部我們啟動了一個跨部會的量子國家隊計劃由以5年的時間80億元的預算來投入。那非常的高興我們去年底看到中研院我們成功的研發台灣自研自製的超導量子電腦。"},{"start":372.486,"end":373.207,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":387.941,"end":398.135,"text":"每個月都會增加每個月都會增加所以大家都在努力大家都在努力進步嘛但是我覺得台灣這個表現已經讓我們非常的期待但是呢我看了一下預算我們五年台灣是80億再換算美元的話大概2.5億美國的話這個"},{"start":403.342,"end":405.224,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":423.599,"end":439.359,"text":"以中央來講我們特別專注在這個超早量子電腦的研發跟它的製程的開發這兩個方面當然我們有量子光電還有量子密碼但是最燒錢的大概就是超早量子電腦"},{"start":440.92,"end":443.061,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案"},{"start":457.637,"end":468.487,"text":"是,這個因為我看到我們電子電腦如果我們的成功然後算力就會變成超強嘛也會提供AI的模型應用但是它是不是會有一個狀況這是很長期的沒錯,它是不是會有一個狀況是它的進展也會帶來風險也就是會不會未來網路上面的密碼"},{"start":476.374,"end":480.315,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":503.582,"end":527.942,"text":"對,因為我看到世界上很多國家,所以我們中研院也開始投入後量子密碼圈。投入很久了,而且發展得相當不錯。好,那這個很重要。接下來最後一點時間想跟院長關心的就是我們對於博士生的講座的提升,因為台灣的博士生招生越來越困難。我在中研院當過三年的研究助理,我那個研究室裡面我記得就有兩位是博士後"},{"start":528.863,"end":540.352,"text":"的學長姐那他們在一邊努力做研究也一邊希望說未來是不是能夠繼續擔任研究員或者是可以投入教職所以除了這個供給量以外其實會發現對博士生來說很大一個困難是他可能念博士的時間較長那這個當中那個生活上面如何去支撐他可以全職的來投入博士生的這個學程所以我們中研院也是有博士生講述提升方案目前我們的計畫是怎麼樣來提升"},{"start":559.126,"end":561.548,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":577.459,"end":602.374,"text":"分別是臺大、清大、師大、臺師大還有臺南藝術大學、四所大學總共16名博士生我們給予5年的獎助金這些人在大學裡面做研究我們希望說他能夠免除您剛才所說的生活的困境能夠專心做研究"},{"start":603.214,"end":606.897,"text":"所以這個獎註金是每個月提供,並且是會永續性的讓他能夠把他博士生就讀完成。單本一點你們會進行一個檢視跟審查嗎?對。好,這個名額,我們這個預算在編列的時候,名額總共是多少?因為我看你說每年級獎勵的名額最多可以到15名,但是我們這一次全國只選了16名。"},{"start":626.555,"end":650.142,"text":"未來這個名額是不是有提升的空間呢?我們今年有200多位人申請那經過很嚴格的這個考核最後有16位通過獲選那明年我們當然希望有更多人來申請那因為是精英獎學金所以我們其實這個標準還是在的但是我們希望很多優秀的學生來申請明年有更多人可以拿到這個獎學金"},{"start":650.742,"end":652.523,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時51分）謝謝主席，我請中央研究院院長。"],["主席：有請院長。"],["廖院長俊智：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長好。首先要恭喜院長今年獲選了歐洲分子生物組織（EMBO）的外籍院士。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：不只您本人獲選，也代表臺灣跟EMBO簽訂了準會員的協定，臺灣是不是在亞洲繼新加坡、印度之後的第三個準會員？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：未來加入了這個準會員的協定之後，我們可以有什麼進一步的國際交流？"],["廖院長俊智：第一個，在他們每年的規劃會議，我們可以派兩名代表參加，共同規劃未來一年要進行什麼樣的學術活動、有什麼樣的合作方案，除此之外，我們可以參與他們的installation grant，就是幫忙全世界各地的人假如要到臺灣來工作，他們可以出一部分的開辦費，臺灣出一部分的開辦費，這個對於我們吸引人才非常好，雖然這個方案還沒有正式通過，但是EMBO這個組織要在會上提出這樣的方案，看看所有的會員國是否都會同意，假如同意的話，對我們招攬人才是很大的幫助，特別是分子生物方面的人才。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個國際交流非常重要，我們也非常期待。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：除了歐洲以外，我也看到一個訊息，就是9月底的時候院長您是不是跟陳建仁院士、也是前副總統，一起出席了在教廷的宗座科學院會議？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：您當場也發表了您的研究，研究主題是如何用人工設計跟演化方式來改變生物體，坦白說，這是非常專業的領域，我個人並不熟悉，但我看了報導，陳建仁院士說當時坐在他旁邊的教廷宗座社科院院長艾福特表示，聽了你的研究，他覺得相當地驚艷，甚至他們兩個人還在討論是不是要邀請這位社科院院長來到臺灣訪問，這個有沒有後續進一步的討論？"],["廖院長俊智：他們去年已經來了。"],["吳委員沛憶：已經來了？"],["廖院長俊智：對，我們當然也歡迎他們繼續來訪問。我想剛才您提到的這位應該是另外一個社會科學……"],["吳委員沛憶：社會科學院的院長，沒錯。"],["廖院長俊智：應該是社會科學院，社會科學院的還沒有來過，宗座科學院的來過，他跟樞機主教這兩位來過。"],["吳委員沛憶：我想這些國際交流都非常地重要，陳建仁院士是臺灣在教廷宗座科學院的第二位院士，前面還有李遠哲院士。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：代表了臺灣的研究在學術上的表現其實是非常地優異，有非常好的成果，院長也常常有很多國際交流的計畫，譬如中研院過去與法國國家科學研究院也簽了備忘錄。剛剛在我質詢之前的葉元之委員也非常關心中研院的國際學術交流，我同等關心、重視，但是我要講幾件事，第一個，剛剛我聽到委員在說你們的國際旅費跟前幾年比起來，怎麼會增加那麼多？第一個，我們支持中研院的國際學術交流，所以預算上當然要支持，至於旅費，我要提醒其他委員，因為我們過去在市議會這幾年期間、疫情期間，所有公務部門的旅費因為沒辦法出國，實際上用不到，所以我們都是統刪，但是保留科目，因為我們知道等到疫情過後絕對要趕快進行國際的交流，所以在疫情之後，國際交流的旅費就恢復到原先的計畫，比前幾年增加，這是當然的。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們覺得還不夠，我覺得國際的交流對臺灣來講，不管是學術上實質的進步，或者是讓臺灣被世界更多的學術社群看見，這兩者我們都非常希望可以給你們支持。第二個，剛剛前面葉元之委員也在說，怎麼中研院跟中國學術單位的交流計畫變少了，是不是代表臺灣不重視中國研究？因為我自己的碩士班是在清大社會所就讀，我們所上就有中國研究學程組，所以我很多同學他們每一年可能要到中國、甚至要做田野調查，臺灣的中國研究其實發展多年，不只是清大，政大東亞所、臺大國發所、淡大等等，其實中國研究是我們的強項。所以我覺得要釐清一件事情，對中國研究的重視不代表要跟中國的政府單位做學術交流活動，舉例來說，我在清大唸書的時候，我也代表我們社會所到北京的清華大學做學術論文的發表交流，可是我的論文主題不是中國研究，我是用我的臺灣研究主題──農村研究，跟中國的農村研究進行交流，所以國際的交流是依各個學術的專業來進行互動，這是兩件事情，而這兩件事情我認為都同等重要。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以不該是以中研院跟中國政府的合作數量去評量臺灣對中國研究的重視程度，這個在邏輯上是兩件事情，我想在這裡討論清楚。","接下來要跟院長討論的是，中研院也非常重視……應當說行政院非常地重視量子科學的進展，所以2021年的時候，國科會、中研院、經濟部啟動了一個跨部會的量子國家隊計畫，以5年的時間、80億元的預算投入。非常、非常高興看到去年底中研院成功研發臺灣自研自製的超導量子電腦，當然進展的空間還很大，可是現在全世界是不是只有6個國家，包含美國、中國、日本、芬蘭、荷蘭跟臺灣，能夠自研自製這樣的量子電腦？"],["廖院長俊智：又多了一個德國了。"],["吳委員沛憶：又多了一個德國？"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：總共7個國家，但是我覺得……"],["廖院長俊智：每個月都會增加一個。"],["吳委員沛憶：每個月都會增加，所以大家都努力進步嘛！"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：我覺得臺灣這個表現已經讓我們非常地期待，但是我看了一下預算，臺灣5年是80億，換算成美元的話，大概是2.5億；美國也是年度區間，它的預算是39.4億，大概是我們的16倍；日本的預算也是，期間一年，就有8億美元；中國號稱是投入上百億美元，所以臺灣看起來，我們投入的預算真的不算多。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：也因此我們必須要挑重點來發展，目前我們發展重點的項目領域是哪些呢？"],["廖院長俊智：以中研院來講，我們特別專注在超導量子電腦的研發跟它製程的開發這兩個方面，當然我們有量子光電，還有量子密碼，但是最燒錢的，大概就是超導量子電腦、量子光電跟量子密碼，量子光電也滿需要經費的；量子密碼的部分，由於是軟體方面，所以它所需要的經費不像另外兩項那麼高，但是我們都同等的重視。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。因為我看到如果我們的量子電腦成功，算力就會變成超強，也會提供AI的模型應用，但它是不是會有一個狀況……"],["廖院長俊智：這是很長期的，所以……"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，它是不是會有一個狀況，它的進展也會帶來風險，也就是會不會未來網路上面的密碼非常容易被量子電腦所破解？"],["廖院長俊智：是的，沒錯。這就是為什麼我們要發展量子密碼、後量子密碼，我們有一個團隊在研究將來假如量子電腦成功之後，這些密碼怎麼樣保護，因為所有的密碼理論上都可以被未來的量子電腦所突破，在那個時候我們怎麼樣因應，這是我們研究團隊最大的重點。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，因為我看到世界上很多國家……所以我們中研院也開始投入後量子密碼學的研究。"],["廖院長俊智：我們投入很久了！"],["吳委員沛憶：投入很久，太好了！"],["廖院長俊智：而且發展得相當不錯。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這個很重要。","接下來最後一點時間想跟院長關心的就是我們對於博士生獎助的提升。因為臺灣的博士生招生越來越困難，我在中研院當過3年的研究助理，我記得我那個研究室裡面只有兩位是博士後的學長姐，他們一邊努力做研究，也一邊希望未來是不是能夠繼續擔任研究員或者可以投入教職。除了供給量以外，其實會發現對博士生來說很大一個困難是，他可能唸博士的時間較長，這當中在生活上面如何去支撐他可以全職投入博士生的學程？所以中研院也是有博士生獎助提升方案，目前我們的計畫是怎麼樣來提升？"],["廖院長俊智：誠如委員show的這個，我們有人社科學博士菁英獎學金，每年招募全國所有的博士生來申請。今年我們選了16位，分別是臺大、清大、臺師大還有臺南藝術大學等4所大學，總共16名博士生，我們給予5年的獎助金。這些人在大學裡面做研究，我們希望他能夠免除您剛才所說的生活困境、能夠專心做研究。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以這個獎助金是每個月提供，並且是延續性的，讓他能夠把博士生就讀完成，但每一年你們會進行一個檢視跟審查嘛？"],["廖院長俊智：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個預算在編列的時候名額總共是多少？因為我看到每年級獎勵的名額最多可以到15名，但是這次全國只選了16名，未來這個名額是不是有提升的空間呢？"],["呂副執行秘書妙芬：我們今年有兩百多位申請，經過很嚴格的考核，最後有16位通過、獲選。明年我們當然希望更多人來申請，因為是菁英獎學金，所以我們這個標準還是在的，但是我們希望很多優秀的學生來申請，明年有更多人可以拿到這個獎學金。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，標準審查嚴格是必須的，也許你們在計畫的說明上面也讓博士生知道，要來申請的話，他要具備怎麼樣的能力，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：是的，我們第一次全部是由特聘研究員跟院士來當評審委員，所以是非常嚴謹的標準。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝院長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員的質詢，院長請回。","再來，我們請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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house這個活動其實在我們的北院的部分其實受到非常多的這個迴響那這個效果其實也非常的好那我知道其實在去年10月14號首度專門為6到12歲的孩子舉辦這個兒童科普日那70場的一個活動也吸引了將近快要5萬人的參與"},{"start":39.776,"end":41.437,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":65.129,"end":66.711,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究基金附屬單位預算案。��"},{"start":87.647,"end":114.273,"text":"這據我們了解反應是非常非常好有點出乎我們的意料那當然我們明年是一定會再度辦理這南部院區的開放那至於是否會分兒童版的科普日跟一般這個院區開放那我們明年可能會先從分零分流開始而不是不同天同一天有一些活動是可以說標註給"},{"start":116.173,"end":133.888,"text":"學生和大人來參加,用這種方式能夠廣邀全家大小一起到中央醫院南部醫院去享受愉快又有知識性的一天。"},{"start":134.989,"end":155.348,"text":"因為我們知道其實這個南院的這樣子的一個院區或者是南院的這樣子的一個園區應該是說它其實也帶動了這個南北科技產業非常重要的一個發展的一個指標那我想這個從我們北部的一些成功的複製那可以往南我們真的就把這個科普的部分往下扎根"},{"start":156.729,"end":174.831,"text":"另外我想討論一下關於人才培育跟延攬的一個計畫。剛剛其實有聽到我們在延攬國外的一些優秀的人才來台灣做一些交流。包含TIGP我們的成效的確也是不錯。"},{"start":175.969,"end":195.46,"text":"但是我要來討論的是另外一個部分就是在113年度我們看到延攬資深學人我們目標延攬是10位但是最後只有一位這個等於是達成率有點低只有10%另外我們可以看到在這四年來當中好像這個數字好像都是一直在往下盪"},{"start":196.82,"end":225.787,"text":"第二塊的部分是國內外學術研究機構合辦的學程跟進修的計劃預計招生的總人數是65名實際的是47名大概差不多七成多另外在博士後研究學者的培育計劃目標是100名實際到的人數是79名這三項的指標明顯可能跟剛剛我們包含移經委員有特別提到的TIGB"},{"start":226.147,"end":228.848,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":251.497,"end":255.581,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。��"},{"start":273.559,"end":299.337,"text":"那所謂的目標值是我們編列預算那這個以備萬一這個這個延攬的對象沒有辦法馬上回來擔任專職我們用動用這部分的經費那目前從113年度來看只有一位是需要用這樣子的經費是這個狀況所以是沒有把它納入納入進去就是在經費預算的部分對對他假如是回來我們延攬了很成功就不需要這個"},{"start":300.197,"end":315.548,"text":"好那另外就是剛剛有特別提到這個TIGP的一個計畫就是我們其實目標是15位但是實際招募到有30位那當然其實好像這個實際上報到的人數其實我也想要了解一下"},{"start":316.048,"end":335.298,"text":"就算剛剛其實這個院長有特別說明因為這些人才其實他同樣的他可能也在申請其他的一些我們可能等於要跟其他的國際要來做競爭然後再把人才能夠能夠帶進台灣那這個部分有沒有預計就是因為有這樣子的一個狀況我們可能將來會把這個目標的人數再往上調"},{"start":336.865,"end":352.517,"text":"我講我們要思考說為什麼人家這個去選擇國際先這個更知名的學術單位我們要盡量提升我們的研究水準並且要這個滾動式調整我們研究這個"},{"start":353.999,"end":368.257,"text":"研究人員跟這個博士生的薪資待遇能夠跟上國際的腳步我們去年雖然已經有調整但是過幾年之後我們可能也再需要再重新檢視看是否跟國外的落差或者是有沒有擴大"},{"start":369.218,"end":397.059,"text":"好,那另外一塊我比較想要了解就是2010年我們開始實施這個國際研究生的這個學程招收包含暑期生的一個計劃了那14年來其實我們招收了大概607位那後續有再投入相關的這個就是我們的人員的研究或者是說後續他們在發展的狀況有沒有就是中研院這邊有沒有做一些比較實際上的一個追蹤"},{"start":397.719,"end":422.565,"text":"有,我們請國際處長來回答。報告國會議員,國際處處長孟子欣回答。我們每年大概招生60位、50、60位的這個實習生。那目標只是希望他們至少有10%可以留在本院來銜接國際研究生的博士班。那目前看起來疫情前後其實大致上都有達到這個目標。那疫情後我們會更希望能夠把10%是不是看是不是可以提升到20%。這是目前的規劃,謝謝。"},{"start":425.907,"end":438.516,"text":"另外我想要了解一下就是中央研究院在114年度的預算案當中其實我們的學術研究跟人才培育底下有一個基本行政工作的一個維持我們大概也編列了將近快要有12億左右的這樣子的一個經費"},{"start":442.339,"end":442.779,"text":" bicyclp1"},{"start":458.471,"end":475.305,"text":"但是今年好像到目前為止只辦了一場而且是在苗栗的學校來做這樣子的一個推廣當然我們知道其實要辦一次的這個講堂我們要耗費很多的人力啦然後還很多的這個資料然後包含一些就是我們整個所有的這個進程上面的一些規劃啦"},{"start":476.286,"end":478.027,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案。"},{"start":495.072,"end":517.484,"text":"在南部院區好那明年之後呢有沒有可能會比較我們在檢討看看說我們的量能啊怎麼樣在在做啊還要看相對的效益是啊那中研講堂因為我們在院區開放裡面就有30幾場的這類似這樣的演講活動啊所以我們要再評估一下哪一個效益比較高好"},{"start":518.36,"end":533.005,"text":"那之前其實我們知道還有這個言之有物就是我們特別把一些比較監測跟科學科技相關的部分我們是有配合用一些比較圖文有趣的一個方式來做這樣子的一個出版這樣子的刊物"},{"start":533.445,"end":556.402,"text":"adequa部分我不曉得這個推廣有沒有就是延伸到國中小甚至到我們的高中是不是有另外一個更進程的一個跟跨部會教育部這邊來做一個合作然後把這樣子的一個科普的刊物能夠往下扎根的一個計畫目前我們是以出版為主第三本的顏值有誤也即將出版"},{"start":557.082,"end":562.546,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11二、審查114年度中央政府函．為11"},{"start":586.33,"end":586.37,"text":"院長請回。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":449,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：郭委員早。"],["郭委員昱晴：院長早安。中研院院區開放參觀，這個Open House的活動在北院部分其實收到非常多的迴響，效果也非常好，我知道在去年10月14日首度專門為6到12歲的孩子舉辦兒童科普日，70場的活動也吸引了將近5萬人的參與，後續大家的反饋、滿意程度其實都非常高，高達九成五。再來在今年10月12日也推出了將近有100場的互動科普活動，參觀人數又比前一年更多，滿意程度也高達了九成六。我們知道10月15日中研院的南部院區開幕，一直到上個禮拜六你們也推出了第一次的Open 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的委員會增添一點理直氣和的氛圍。"},{"start":24.905,"end":41.248,"text":"我想有一個地方想要先詢問一下院長中央醫院歐美研究所2021年發起美國肖像的研究計畫一共調查10年2024年5月23號到28號用四話手機抽樣電訪了1200多位中華民國成年的民眾要探討對於美國的印象其中有一題很微妙這一題"},{"start":51.03,"end":63.827,"text":"他是要問說假設川普於2024年勝選成為美國總統且中國大陸攻打台灣您認為美國出兵幫助台灣的可能性是減少還增加?請教一下院長知道調查結果嗎?"},{"start":66.436,"end":83.594,"text":"我看過這個報告那詳細的數字我現在這個不記得好我先提醒院長7月多的時候呢其實美國選舉已經開跑很長時間而且在非常炙熱的狀態告訴院長答案貴院今年在7月18號高調公布調查結果說川普勝選總統呢"},{"start":85.937,"end":107.757,"text":"會對臺灣安全的連結造成一些影響．37.5%的受訪者相信川普當選總統會提升美國出兵幫助臺灣的可能性但是46.2%認為會減少。針對川普院最新的調查結果近半數的民眾認為他可能幫助臺灣的可能性降低。院長認同這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":109.382,"end":132.08,"text":"這個是非常專業的問題那也非常複雜並不是簡單說這個會不會出兵而且這個的前提是中國大陸會攻打台灣那這個也是一個很這個假設性的問題就在這個問題這個假設存在下那他的回答那就每一個人的依據就不一樣所以這個要怎麼解讀變得說要很"},{"start":132.5,"end":134.381,"text":"為什麼我們會有這樣偏頗的提問呢?這個問題其實是非常複雜的。媒體不斷就報導中研院7月高調公布的這個新聞稿。"},{"start":151.613,"end":153.834,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":176.847,"end":201.797,"text":"或者拜登沒有問到民主黨為什麼會有這種情況呢同時又去問這種很明確很可能有這種影響疑義的事情還高調發布現在賴政府跟中央研究院壓作保壓作鞭中央研究院是不是應該要秉持著不只是行政中立啊也應該要是學術中立是不是要重新做一些相關研究去給賴總統一些新的建議啊"},{"start":203.081,"end":223.771,"text":"我想這個中委員一向是尊重學術自由這個調查是研究人員這個由下而上的一個訪問那我們一切尊重當然委員的提醒我們也會交給研究人員去做參考那這個歐北省的副所長是不是也可以這個稍微解釋一下"},{"start":225.029,"end":225.229,"text":"第二點"},{"start":251.111,"end":276.347,"text":"然後第二個就是說在這個關於所有的調查這個設定來講我想從這個學術的這個角度我們是在探討各種的可能性那麼是不是有偏頗我想這可以有謝謝我們尊重學術自由但也請尊重行政中立跟學術中立各種各樣的研究都要有才能夠提供給我們的政府一個相關的參考跟依循希望院長回去了解一下這個研究或者相類似的研究"},{"start":276.747,"end":305.136,"text":"能不能平衡一下或有需要重新依據選舉的結果做研究也希望能夠提供學者作為參考再來我想和院長討論另外一個也是非常重要的問題每天都應該關注就是我們的能源問題中研院2022年提出淨零科技研發政策建議書建議使用包含前兩名就是去碳燃氫跟地熱能但是呢過了幾年我們到現在還在光電還在這個相關的這個這等同於是跟你們的想法跟建議是不一樣的"},{"start":306.036,"end":311.6,"text":"除碳燃氫是用非常先進的技術讓它燃燒的時候不會產生二氧化碳對環境永續是比較有幫助的對於台灣現在都是用氣發電減碳是極有幫助的中央院院在去年2023年11月14號跟台電共同發布除碳燃氫的技術的一個小型商用的發電基礎這個當然是給予鼓勵"},{"start":330.353,"end":331.514,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院函．為11"},{"start":347.927,"end":372.249,"text":"我前兩天在週末的時間參訪了新加坡他們已經在做30%了甚至德國公司、日本公司、美國公司都先後表態2025年就可以做到100%的氫能發電的基礎我們的速度為什麼這麼的慢我們能不能再更提升一些我們能不能再更快一些中央院有沒有在做更多這方面的研究去響應你們自己的建議"},{"start":372.99,"end":401.395,"text":"好跟委員這個說明一下首先您說我們剛才提的那五項緊述推動並不是表示說只推動這五項其他都不做了而是說這五項在目前社會上政府是推動比較少那我們希望說政府能夠推動這些那其他我們也支持譬如說剛才您看到我們也是擴大推動加速推動等等的並不是說這些其他都不做了因為我們減碳需要但是我們的速度太慢了"},{"start":401.755,"end":407.238,"text":"別人都已經到20%、30%2025要100%了我們不能只是為了10%就很高興嗎?跟委員報告所謂10%、20%那是生產機組的公司並不是他們實際用來發電的這不一樣喔譬如說這個西門子他說它有50%他說有30%或是100%日本也有號稱100%那是他們生產的機組他們可以提供給客戶台電是一個客戶"},{"start":430.833,"end":459.359,"text":"所以這兩者是不一樣的那我們的學術量能不用跟上別人商業的技術嗎?所以說我們積極要發展去氮燃氫因為到目前為止國際上仍然是用電解水來產氫那這個在綠電充足的國家是可行在台灣綠電缺乏用電解水產氫是比較困難所以我們積極要發展其他的方法所以我們的18是用其他的方法?是的"},{"start":460.319,"end":486.497,"text":"我們一起來了解一下希望能夠拔得頭籌用新的技術也要繼續領先那地熱能的部分也其實很重要因為地熱能也是一個非常有用的做法但是我們現在10月21號跟中油合作在宜蘭開採了這個所謂的深層地熱探測井那未來有沒有可能申請相關的執照直接在當地建立電廠中原業有沒有"},{"start":487.638,"end":508.568,"text":"這方面的資訊這個警目前是定位為研究警那還有很多法規的的變更法規的調適才能夠在那邊開發地熱是這部分我們也這個密集的跟經濟部行政院商量那假如我們真的探測到下一步要怎麼做那目前為止是這個研究警"},{"start":508.928,"end":511.01,"text":"保持聯繫那您在受訪的時候也表示2026上半年希望可以有更多的報告那因為我們明年很可能要這個進入這個新的能源的時代不管怎麼樣的一個情況啦應該有確熱遞熱的話我們應該要盡速的發展"},{"start":526.627,"end":541.722,"text":"另外有沒有其他的地方可以再多做?中央院院有沒有一些相關的研究?也許不只是宜蘭嘛。因為日本菲律賓已經大量佈建許久。甚至呢菲律賓跟我們的這個比例有100倍。那為什麼我們最近10月才開採第一座?我們是什麼樣的原因delay這麼久?"},{"start":545.966,"end":560.215,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們這這這一次並不是第一座這臺灣也有開展很多地熱但是都淺塵的中研院的第一座嗎這個不是不是中研院跟中油的這是深層地熱中研院事實上跟地熱是沒有相關的只是我們有"},{"start":561.075,"end":563.618,"text":"三、審查114年度中央研究院單位預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案"},{"start":581.216,"end":583.577,"text":"檢查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院單位預算案"},{"start":606.047,"end":626.395,"text":"希望中央院作為這個能源探勘或能源研究的領頭羊啦能夠替台灣找到更多可以用的電啦否則的話我們現在的這個光電其實日本已經做出警告有非常多的廢棄物因為太陽能板每20年就要做廢棄會有很多廢料的問題那地熱其實是台灣非常淺層非常有機會可以來做發電的這個條件那我想不管是政治的研究還是能源的研究"},{"start":635.538,"end":642.768,"text":"希望中央院都可以發揮學者的風骨,包括我們剛剛提到的雙重中立,持續地來作為這個領頭羊,來帶領或者是讓我們看見未來發展的各種可能性,並且落實下來。謝謝。好,謝謝。院長請回喔。謝謝葛如君。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":367,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時3分）好，謝謝主席。有請中研院廖院長備詢。"],["主席：有請廖院長。"],["廖院長俊智：葛委員，早。"],["葛委員如鈞：早，院長好，我想今天我們是做非常學術的討論，我們也非常感謝立院教文委員會多了一幅美麗的畫，希望能為我們的委員會增添一點理直氣和的氛圍。這邊有個地方想詢問一下院長，中研院歐美研究所2021年發起美國肖像研究計畫，一共調查10年，2024年5月23日到28日用市話手機抽樣電訪了一千兩百多位中華民國成年的民眾，要探討對於美國的印象，其中有一題很微妙，這一題是問，假設川普於2024年勝選成為美國總統，且中國大陸攻打臺灣，您認為美國出兵幫助臺灣的可能性是減少還是增加？請教一下院長，知道調查結果嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：我看過這個報告，詳細的數字我現在不記得了。"],["葛委員如鈞：我先提醒院長，7月多的時候其實美國選舉已經開跑很長時間，而且在非常炙熱的狀態。告訴院長答案，貴院今年在7月18號高調公布調查結果，說川普勝選總統會對臺灣安全的連結造成一些影響，37.5%的受訪者相信川普當選總統會提升美國出兵幫助臺灣的可能性，但是46.2%認為會減少，針對中研院最新的調查結果，近半數的民眾認為他幫助臺灣的可能性降低。院長認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：這個是非常專業的問題，那也非常複雜，並不能簡單說會不會出兵，而且這個的前提是中國大陸會攻打臺灣，那這也是一個很假設性的問題，所以在這個假設存在下，每一個人回答的依據就不一樣，所以這個要怎麼解讀變得要很……"],["葛委員如鈞：院長的回答有院長的高度，真的很好，但是這個研究也應該要有中研院跟院長一樣的高度，為什麼我們會有這樣偏頗的提問呢？這個問題其實是非常複雜的，媒體不斷地報導中研院7月高調公布了這個新聞稿，某種程度有一些民眾會覺得他被嚇唬了、被嚇到了，還是說中研院這樣的一個報導是在幫助我們的政府去押寶？某種程度來講，這個研究到現在還被民眾持續在觀看，等同於是在打臉總統府說沒有押寶的動作，為什麼我會這樣說呢？因為這份研究完全沒有問到賀錦麗或者拜登，沒有問到民主黨，為什麼會有這種情況呢？同時又去問這種很明確、很可能有影響、產生疑義的事情，還高調發布，現在賴政府跟中研院押錯寶、押錯邊，中研院是不是應該要秉持著不只是行政中立，還應該是學術中立，重新做一些相關研究，去給賴總統一些新的建議？"],["廖院長俊智：我想中研院一向是尊重學術自由，這個調查是研究人員由下而上的訪問，我們一切尊重，當然委員的提醒，我們也會交給研究人員去做參考，副所長是不是也可以稍微解釋一下？"],["葛委員如鈞：簡短。"],["王副所長智明：是，葛委員好，我想很簡單的回應委員剛剛兩個問題，第一個是關於選項上面，這可能跟當時我們的同事在進行調查的時候……"],["葛委員如鈞：學術自由這個我們聽到了。"],["王副所長智明：我曉得，我是說時間點，那個時候可能……"],["葛委員如鈞：不知道民主黨是誰選嗎？"],["王副所長智明：我在想我沒有辦法很細緻的回答你這個問題，但我想這個時間點可能是一個問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：那您的第二點。"],["王副所長智明：第二個就是所有調查的設定來講，我想從學術的這個角度，我們在探討各種可能性，是不是有偏頗，我想可以由……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，我們尊重學術自由，但也請尊重行政中立跟學術中立，各種各樣的研究都要有，才能夠提供給我們的政府一個相關的參考跟依循，希望院長回去了解一下這個研究或者相類似的研究能不能平衡一下，或有需要重新依據選舉的結果做研究，也希望能夠提供學者作為參考。"],["廖院長俊智：好，我們把委員的意見帶回去。"],["葛委員如鈞：再來我想和院長討論另外一個也是非常重要的問題，每天都應該關注，就是我們的能源問題，中研院2022年提出淨零科技研發政策建議書，建議使用包含前兩名，就是去碳燃氫跟地熱能，但是過了幾年，我們到現在還在光電，這等於是跟你們的想法跟建議是不一樣的。去碳燃氫是用非常先進的技術，讓它燃燒的時候不會產生二氧化碳，對環境永續是比較有幫助的，對於臺灣現在都是用氣發電、減碳極有幫助。中研院在去年2023年11月14號跟台電共同發布去碳燃氫的技術，一個小型商用的發電機組，這個當然要給予鼓勵，天然氣中混合10%，但是到底我們什麼時候可以進行民生的用途？什麼時候可以做到100%？歐洲國家現在或者說舊有的已經到20%了，我們現在還只在講10%，我前兩天周末的時間參訪了新加坡，他們已經在做30%了，甚至德國公司、日本公司、美國公司都先後表態，2025年就可以做到100%氫能發電的機組，我們的速度為什麼這麼慢？我們能不能再更提升一些、能不能再更快一些？中研院有沒有在做更多這方面的研究，去響應你們自己的建議？"],["廖院長俊智：跟委員說明一下，首先您說我們剛才提的那五項儘速推動，並不是表示只推動這五項，其他都不做了，而是說這五項在目前社會上政府推動比較少，我們希望政府能夠推動這些，其他我們也支持，譬如剛才您看到我們也是擴大推動、加速推動等等，並不是說其他都不做了，因為我們減碳需要各方面……"],["葛委員如鈞：可是我們的速度太慢了，別人都已經到20%、30%，2025年要100%了，我們不能只是為了10%就很高興嘛。"],["廖院長俊智：跟委員報告，所謂10%、20%那是生產機組的公司，並不是他們實際用來發電的，這不一樣，譬如西門子說有50%、30%或100%，日本也有號稱100%的，那是他們生產的機組，可以提供給客戶的，台電是一個客戶，所以這兩者是不一樣的。"],["葛委員如鈞：那我們的學術量能不用跟上別人的商業技術嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是，所以說我們要積極發展去碳燃氫，因為到目前為止，國際上仍然是用電解水來產氫，這在綠電充足的國家可行，在臺灣綠電缺乏，用電解水產氫比較困難，所以我們要積極發展其他的方法，去碳燃氫的方法。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們的10%是用其他的方法？"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：OK，那我們一起來了解一下，也希望能夠拔得頭籌，用新的技術也要繼續領先。"],["廖院長俊智：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：那地熱能的部分其實也很重要，因為地熱能也是一個非常有用的作法，我們10月21號跟中油合作，在宜蘭開採了所謂的深層地熱探測井，未來有沒有可能申請相關的執照，直接在當地建立電廠？中研院有沒有這方面的資訊？"],["廖院長俊智：這個井目前是定位為研究井，還需要有很多法規的變更、法規的調適，才能夠在那邊開發地熱，這部分我們也密集的跟經濟部、行政院商量，假如我們真的探測到，下一步要怎麼做，到目前為止是研究井。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，保持聯繫。您在受訪的時候也表示，2026年上半年希望可以有更多的報告，因為我們明年很可能要進入新的能源時代，不管怎麼樣的情況，只要有確認地熱的話，我們應該要儘速的發展，另外，有沒有其他的地方可以再多做？中研院有沒有相關的研究？"],["廖院長俊智：有。"],["葛委員如鈞：也許不只是宜蘭，因為日本、菲律賓已經大量布建許久，甚至菲律賓跟我們的比例相差有一百倍，為什麼我們最近到10月才開採第一座？是因為什麼樣的原因延遲這麼久？"],["廖院長俊智：跟委員報告，我們這次並不是第一座，臺灣也有開採很多地熱，但都是淺層的。"],["葛委員如鈞：中研院的第一座嘛。"],["廖院長俊智：不是。"],["葛委員如鈞：中研院跟中油的。"],["廖院長俊智：這是深層地熱，中研院事實上跟地熱是沒有相關的，只是我們有探測地下結構、地下熱能的技術，所以我們跳出來幫助國家尋找熱源，我們突破的點是我們可以開發深層地熱，在四公里半的部分打到地熱，這個在臺灣過去是沒有做的，在菲律賓、日本也絕大多數都是淺層地熱，因為菲律賓、日本的火山多，所以不需要打很深就可以有地熱，臺灣當然也有大屯山等火山，所以我們下一步也計畫要在大屯山那邊探勘，臺灣還有很多其他地方有地熱，深層地熱的潛能，我們也同步在探勘當中。"],["葛委員如鈞：希望中研院作為能源探勘或能源研究的領頭羊，能夠替臺灣找到更多可以用的電，否則的話，我們現在的光電，其實日本已經做出警告，會有非常多的廢棄物，因為太陽能板每20年就要廢棄，會有很多廢料的問題。地熱其實是臺灣非常淺層、非常有機會可以來做發電的條件，我想不管是政治的研究還是能源的研究，希望中研院都可以發揮學者的風骨，包含我剛剛提到的雙重中立，持續的來作為領頭羊，帶領或者是讓我們看見未來發展的各種可能性，並且落實下來，謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席：院長請回，謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢。","再來我們請林宜瑾委員質詢。郭昱晴委員質詢完，我們會休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葉元之","陳秀寳","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","萬美玲","吳沛憶","林倩綺","張雅琳","陳培瑜","吳春城","羅智強","翁曉玲","麥玉珍","吳宗憲","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2024-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 114年度中央政府總預\n算案有關中央研究院單位預算案；三、審查 114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院科學研究\n基金附屬單位預算案；四、處理中央研究院函，為112年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第2目「一\n般學術研究及評議」預算繼續凍結100萬元書面報告，請查照案；五、審查中央研究院函，為113\n年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(一)「自然及人文社會科學研究」預算凍結100萬元書面報\n告，請查照案（第二案及第三案僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}