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謝謝那我們接著請與會機關代表說明請司法院說明"},{"start":2434.036,"end":2436.839,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2465.806,"end":2485.689,"text":"第三十條的修正主要的目的就是要提高大法官的審理同意門檻也就是他的評議門檻從現在的二分之一提高到三分之二那麼在過去大法官審理案件法的時代那個時候也是三分之二出席三分之二的同意通過那在更早的時候"},{"start":2486.569,"end":2512.427,"text":"大法官審理案件法更早的時候的修法當時曾經有出現過四分之三的出席三分之二的通過所以呢我想說這一次的這個修法就像我之前所講的提高大法官評議門檻從二分之一到三分之二的目的就是要強化憲法法院的品質那麼讓整個憲法裁判的程序更加嚴謹所以以上的報告謝謝"},{"start":2515.964,"end":2518.507,"text":"法院法院法院法院法院法院法院"},{"start":2529.116,"end":2531.419,"text":"現法法庭是我們現在唯一有權解釋憲法,然後就人民跟機關在憲政秩序上面"},{"start":2546.118,"end":2551.2,"text":"要獲取終極救濟的這個最後途徑所以我們是認為說各憲政機關都有這個責任然後共同來維護憲法法庭的這個穩定運作那因為我們看一下這個修正草案則在第四條第30條第43條跟95條那麼我們擔心說就很有可能造成憲法法庭難以行使職權"},{"start":2569.048,"end":2569.688,"text":"委員翁曉玲等17人擬具"},{"start":2586.379,"end":2602.711,"text":"現有總額,大法官現有總額,限定在是指憲法正修條文第五條所定的這個大法官人數,也就是15人。那麼但是在對於說,如果大法官有辭任、死亡、出缺、認滿以後,沒有辦法及時產生新任大法官、繼任的時候,那麼限訴法"},{"start":2603.691,"end":2617.354,"text":"並沒有像其他我們這個書面後面有附各個其他國家的那麼像德國澳奧地利加拿大這些國家對這種情形都有一些因應了這個做法目前憲法並沒有這樣子這個規範那麼這種情形底下就會產生在這種情形底下憲法法庭的運作產生困難那人民的這個請求憲法的權力救濟就會產生很大的這個障礙"},{"start":2630.777,"end":2634.199,"text":"那如果在對照說我們現在憲法第十二條針對大法公迴避的時候不記錄線而總和會發生說修正草第四條跟十二條之間解釋上面的疑義當然之前有委員有講說十二條還是特別規定"},{"start":2646.484,"end":2646.965,"text":"法院司法及法律部長"},{"start":2664.019,"end":2666.52,"text":"議員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等二十五條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":2683.287,"end":2703.72,"text":"現有總額過半數提高到三分之二部分那這部分我們覺得說對憲法法庭的諮詢心思又增加了更更大的這個限制齁因為這樣子的修正草案比憲法訴訟改制以前的這個大法官會議時期規定是以出席大法官的三分之二的同意門檻更高因為以前是出席的人數三分之二就可以現在這個修正草案變成是現有總額三分之二"},{"start":2706.701,"end":2732.697,"text":"那我們覺得這樣子的限制可能跟違背說外界希望憲法法庭能夠修正的這個意見大家都知道我們憲法訴訟法這一個改成是原則過半數是2017年施改國事會議底下的這個建議因為當時原來的那個大法官會議審理案件法規定成是出席人員三十二的時候就造成說當出席的大法官"},{"start":2733.878,"end":2748.53,"text":"暫程跟反對都沒有達到三分之二的時候永遠一直沒有辦法一直沒有辦法達成共識那案件選了未決人民請求解釋憲法一直沒有辦法得到這個救濟所以才會施改國際秩序做成這個決議那施改國際秩序做成這個決議之後我們憲法訴訟法也配合這個去做修正"},{"start":2752.433,"end":2775.141,"text":"以這兩年的操作,確實有達到當初希望給人民憲法上全力有效救濟的這個目的。如果我們現在就修改回比原來更嚴格,會對憲法法庭的運作產生更大障礙。所以我們也是建議說這一部分能夠去維持。另外還有草案九十五條這個事情期間的部分,"},{"start":2776.801,"end":2781.365,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來我們請出席的黨團代表表示意見。好,那我們首先請民進黨代表表示意見。"},{"start":2799.901,"end":2824.012,"text":"首先我們對於今天由翁委員所提出的包括兩個部分一個是第四條和第九十五條另外是額數問題一個是將現有原總額改成法定總額一個是30條跟43條將評議人數做成決議要改成三分之二那其實關鍵還是在於現有總額的認定"},{"start":2828.394,"end":2848.846,"text":"是否以改為所謂的法定總額,那我們就自己翻。過去呢,在委員會討論的時候啊,也都不時的提出,那在這裡呢,還是要重複的來拿出來講。因為我們本來原來是希望說透過公聽會,那麼公聽會的話,現在建築於我們現在看到在我手上這一本啊,"},{"start":2850.052,"end":2870.308,"text":"這是當代法律所出的專刊那他這裡想說憲法法庭的現有總額就是這個專題為什麼這個題目會引發法律人這麼高度的關切不只要有這個專刊來討論甚至明天也有人法律人要透過實際的行動來表達"},{"start":2871.269,"end":2883.479,"text":"那麼至於當然言論自由大家各有立場但是呢法理上呢還是有一個基本的原則先從我們自己立法院來好了在我們自己立法院職權刑事法立職法當中的第四條"},{"start":2885.865,"end":2914.46,"text":"第一項,立法院會議須有立法委員總額三分之二出席,三分之一出席時的開會。任何的合一制的機關,成會的額數一定是法律規定,這個自不代言。但是,當我們自己立法院本身,所謂的立法委員總額三分之一,它的立法委員總額怎麼認定呢?它是以每會期實際報到的人數為計算標準,但是會期中辭職、去職或亡故者應檢除之。"},{"start":2915.2,"end":2939.85,"text":"所以我們都知道立法院目前依憲條文的規定我們的法定原額是113席這是剛性的規定但是實質上我們的總額呢會依實際報到那因為立法院有個特別的制度你當選為立法委員之後呢你每會期會有個實際報到實際報到後才能行使職權所以嚴格來講如果有委員"},{"start":2941.195,"end":2962.447,"text":"委員在會期開始來進行報導,我們的總額就會下降。總額下降之後,在會期中,若有人辭職、去職或死亡,還會再檢除。這是以便於整個立法院,它能夠運作它的現有的總額,它能夠有個計算的標準。"},{"start":2963.223,"end":2976.285,"text":"那如果說以立法院自己本身例子法這樣的規定那我們來看一看現在呢我們所討論的修改的憲法訴訟法其實呢憲法訴訟法是誠如剛剛司法院的報告"},{"start":2977.418,"end":2995.698,"text":"他實在一百零八年改為現在的憲法訴訟法之前在民國八十二年的時候是叫做司法院大法官審理案件法在那個時候第一次在立法院討論就對於現有總額做了很清楚的規定我們如果查到那時候立法院的公報"},{"start":2996.539,"end":3015.964,"text":"那時候以國民黨為多數的國會包括國民黨的提案就是很強調的包括那時候的司法院的廳長也是來說明啊秘書長對不起是秘書長也是說明說大法官在開會的時候向來都是以現有的總而就是指現有"},{"start":3016.684,"end":3031.354,"text":"那麽那時候為了處理這個現有呢還特別呢把原來大法官會議法當中把它明確的說是現有那因此呢當我們更動這個現有的時候呢會產生什麽問題在之前呢剛剛在我們司法院有聽到了齁"},{"start":3032.813,"end":3059.395,"text":"那麼為什麼要扣除這些依實際狀況不能夠來行使的規定那其實在其他國家如果說他的成會額數有剛性的規定那他一定有配套那這個配套呢其實在我們現在看來有些委員的看來呢這個配套啊就是所謂的萬年延任條款其實很多的會議的合議制呢他為了避免他的會議沒有辦法成會我舉一個議條哈因為"},{"start":3060.831,"end":3077.078,"text":"本席也剛好過去在國民大會還存在的時候當過國大代表那國大代表呢在我們憲法第28條他說每屆國民大會代表之任期自次屆國民大會開會之日為止啊"},{"start":3078.842,"end":3095.837,"text":"這個本來憲法本文規定國民大會原來的代表一任是六年但是呢偏偏呢他的任期呢必須到新次一屆的國民大會產生之日後原任的國民大會才會到任屆滿這為了確保國民大會作為國家的主權機關他不會有中斷"},{"start":3101.567,"end":3128.514,"text":"因為有這樣的綱性的規定所以呢當時國民大會當時政府來到臺灣之後啊國民大會才能依照這樣的一個視線的解釋能夠讓國民大會持續的維持一個開會的額數所以我們在說如果我們採用綱性的額數規定一定有配套的規定讓這些額數在運作的時候不會有中斷之餘那表現在我們最近的就是兩個"},{"start":3129.514,"end":3135.279,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．一）委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第三十五條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":3150.25,"end":3154.431,"text":"委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案》案。．二、本院委員翁曉玲等17人擬具 «憲法訴訟法第九十五條條文修正草案案。．請審議"},{"start":3168.795,"end":3183.052,"text":"必須有這樣的配套的設置,我們才能夠去用一個綱性的法定總額,而不是用現有總額。所以對於我們本案,目前我們看到的第四條,而且我們在過去也表達過,第四條它直接將"},{"start":3184.537,"end":3206.323,"text":"第三項,針列第三項,直接將以後憲訴法裡面所說的所謂的現有總額,就是指法定原額。那這一項加進去又很荒謬的,不是很反諷的呢,它這裡明明白白第四條的本意是什麼?憲法法庭審理規則由司法院定之,前項規則由全體大法官一決之。"},{"start":3207.663,"end":3231.702,"text":"就連第四條本身就很明白的說明了在憲法機關的分權上第四條核心他就告訴你整個憲法訴訟法跟他底下的審理規則都是由大法官自己來決定當然在法的位階上他是由立法院來完成但是立法院基於對其他憲法機關的尊重我們在第四條彰顯由大法官"},{"start":3233.503,"end":3256.783,"text":"自治治理的規則下面橫空而出一個第三項要硬是採行一個過去在82年我們制定在憲法訴訟法之前的前身的大法案案件審理法當中由當時的執政黨就明明白白說出了就是大法官的總額就是指現有總額要去改變這樣的規則實在是讓我們覺得非常的會讓外界疑慮啦"},{"start":3261.647,"end":3270.707,"text":"那至於說在另外三十條跟第四十三條是指參與評議的額數規定我想如果前面的這樣的一個三十條"},{"start":3273.017,"end":3296.251,"text":"第四條做成如此剛性的規定,卻沒有任何的配套。那麼後面呢,這根本就無從去適用。更不用說在我們幾次司法院的說明報告當中,都有提到這樣的一個倉促粗糙的修法呢,甚至連自己憲法訴訟法第十二條迴避的規定都沒有去勾改。目前憲法訴訟法十二條他說,依本法迴避之大法官不記錄現有總額之人數。"},{"start":3298.291,"end":3304.559,"text":"那這樣就如何去維持?如果你的現有總額在第四條用法定原額把它剛性的就是定為15席了,"},{"start":3305.185,"end":3327.598,"text":"那迴避的法官又不記錄在現有總額元素計算,那到底我們要用哪一個才是叫做法定總額,才是現有總額。現有總額變成法定總額是15名,那這15名到底要不要扣掉迴避的大法官,也完全沒有處理。所以呢,基本上這樣的一個認知,我們真的不曉得說,你在第四條加上了一個法定元額的剛性規定,又怎麼樣去適用12條迴避的規定。迴避的規定,"},{"start":3331.154,"end":3351.719,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條文修正草案案．一、本院司法及法制委員翁曉玲等19人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第十五條條條文修正草案"},{"start":3359.361,"end":3360.302,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":3375.329,"end":3389.961,"text":"滿足社會對於憲法訴訟法充分的討論之後我想社會就必須採取他們之力救濟這也是我們所不樂見的所以我們希望今天的由國民黨召委所發起的黨團協商我們希望能夠就近的踩住煞車以上"},{"start":3392.233,"end":3394.194,"text":"謝謝趙偉我想今天的一個協商其實說他嚴肅也非常嚴肅但是說他"},{"start":3421.322,"end":3449.44,"text":"這個整個過程裏面修法可能是有點輕挑我相信在歐委員的提案裏面大家討論很久了他的正面意義他想表達的就是說多元的意見跟觀點避免這個削弱裁判的多元性跟公正性還有專業公信力我記得從大好綱會議到台灣37年的時候就有了"},{"start":3451.522,"end":3465.228,"text":"大法官會做成到現在去挑戰他的人不多不多不管是誰執政挑戰他的人都不多那以你去提到說要把整個法定總額這個把它放進去的話"},{"start":3466.616,"end":3476.669,"text":"我最擔心的就是說其實你假設的那種情況其實也從來沒有發生過啦什麼三四個人有辦法去做成判決這個從過去的實務上的一個運作從來就沒有發生過這種事"},{"start":3482.597,"end":3507.756,"text":"反倒是啊反倒是啊你把這個整額整個法令總額你把它放進去以後啊才會造成實質上來癱瘓掉整個憲法法庭以後的一個運作這個大家都明講啊這個大家都明講嘛但問題就是說當憲政機關之間產生爭議你到最後我相信最終的解鈴人一定是憲法法庭"},{"start":3508.496,"end":3523.932,"text":"那如果說人民的權益遭受到侵害你說要找誰當然你最後那一關也只是到憲法法庭去就是說發生人民的基本權利受到侵害或者有憲政爭議的時候你最後你還是要這個大官來做終局的一個裁判"},{"start":3531.004,"end":3557.5,"text":"那如果說你現在把按照你修法這樣子把這個整個原格這樣把它固定了改為法定總額你把它固定成15人以後啊會很麻煩啊我覺得會很麻煩的就是說你擔心的是從來沒有發生過的然後呢比如說你大法官因為在國會裡面啊這個同意權如果說久了很有可能會發生啊以國民黨來看的話你會哪一個提出來你搞不好全部都不滿意啊"},{"start":3558.308,"end":3574.955,"text":"你如果全部都不滿意啊不滿意以後你造成你憲法法庭就一定停擺這大家都知道的我要強調就是說其實國家是大家的啦國家真的是大家的啦因為你你這個一個一修法以後啊你很容易預測會發生什麼事嘛我就說這一次大官任期到了"},{"start":3583.082,"end":3604.127,"text":"這幾個重新再補到要再補大官的一個人數如果在國會沒有辦法通過沒有辦法通過的理由很多因為每一個在立法院裡面學法的人其實也不多他好的人壞的人他也未必知道都是黨團的意志哪怕我跟你講他很有"},{"start":3605.43,"end":3605.45,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":3622.944,"end":3638.217,"text":"韓國議員"},{"start":3638.337,"end":3638.817,"text":"國民黨委員翁曉玲等19人擬具"},{"start":3663.613,"end":3666.82,"text":"民進黨這樣的一個擔憂或者法界的這些擔憂你們認為這些都不存在的嗎?"},{"start":3670.29,"end":3697.326,"text":"你們真的認為是不存在的嗎?只因為我說我人數就比你多一點我就硬要通過那你通過的目的是幹什麼?你說難道是只因為你大法官會議你這個憲法法庭你這個一個判決誰叫你要做出什麼這個國會的一個擴權法案那麼多把它宣告違憲本來就是他該有的一個工作各位去把它想想看喔大法官如果缺有的不能依法來行之降職權的話"},{"start":3699.68,"end":3701.381,"text":"憲法訴訟法第四十五條條文修正草案．請審議案。．請審議案。．請審議案。"},{"start":3727.441,"end":3745.903,"text":"在國會裡面這些大法官的同意權行使不通過一直要換一直要換換到國民黨喜歡才有辦法那像類似這樣的驗尿的強制抽血這一些你就沒有辦法來做出一個憲法法庭的一個判決出來"},{"start":3746.932,"end":3766.613,"text":"例如說首次暫時處分針對不同國籍小孩歸屬這個部分他把那個整個判決把它廢棄掉加持法庭的那個判決然後直接發回去更審但如果說沒有憲法法庭的話請問像這種案子你怎麼辦那如果說軍事法院跟普通法院你又判決又不同的時候你怎麼辦"},{"start":3769.65,"end":3770.131,"text":"委員翁曉玲等15人擬具"},{"start":3777.705,"end":3782.148,"text":"一、本院委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十三條條文修正草案．一、本院委員翁曉玲等23人擬具:「憲法訴訟法第四十三條條文修正草案．請審議案．請審議案．請審議"},{"start":3801.519,"end":3805.44,"text":"高門檻的同意做成判決,這個其實叫做走回頭路,而且畢竟這個回頭路以前還沒有到法定總額。各位你去把它看看,我們2019年憲法訴訟法在2022年施行,把過去三分之二的同意,然後三分之二把它做一個降低。"},{"start":3826.088,"end":3851.153,"text":"那是避免造成判決速度的一個太緩慢,緩不濟急啊。你說,你說憲訴法實行這兩年做成48次的一個判決啊。那其實如果看我們的還不夠的話,我們再來看看我剛所提到的國際上的一個經驗啊。南韓在,南韓的憲法第111條是九名大法官來組成,七名同意的一個高門檻。但是,今年來不及提名這個最終憲法法庭的判決,就"},{"start":3853.935,"end":3860.178,"text":"暫停適用高的總額。南非也同樣,南非憲法167條規定11名大法官,8名參與評議,但並未規範可決門檻,避免判決速度太慢。"},{"start":3872.302,"end":3882.638,"text":"各位再來想一想看喔你現行的憲法訴訟法我們對正副總統的彈劾案跟違憲政黨的一個解散案我們設定的是三分之二的一個高門檻"},{"start":3884.259,"end":3905.776,"text":"為什麼他設定三分之二的高門檻?就是覺得他跟一般憲法法庭的你的評議跟判決他比你更高一點那假設都是當初的設計是如此才是一個高門檻那你難道你忘了修這一條嗎?這個更高的那就變成你沒有辦法去做差別待遇了你沒辦法去做差別待遇了"},{"start":3908.837,"end":3915.46,"text":"那就變成說這一次提案你僅提高了一般判決跟暫時處分的一個門檻那你卻未去提升整個彈劾或者解散門檻這個失去它的一個橫屏啊究法論法來看的話這個確實是有待來做一個考慮的"},{"start":3926.045,"end":3943.179,"text":"倉促去修法．你注意去把它看．如果像比如說我們整個憲法的彈劾規定彈根據憲法正修條文第四條第七項你是立法院來提出政府總統的一個彈劾並由大法官來做一個審理那你根據憲法訴訟法你第五章部分的75條你只要達到三分之二決議才得以彈劾喔"},{"start":3947.783,"end":3968.767,"text":"所以你就失去那個一個橫屏啊啊失去那個橫屏啊啊那我最後要講的就是說歷史上啊你只要去對跟大法官因為他的不滿意啊來引發這樣的一個報復啊來發動這樣的一個報復啊其實這個走回頭路到底好不好各位就想一想"},{"start":3971.117,"end":3997.606,"text":"大法官在做出第七十六號解釋就是1958提高大法官做成的判決的門檻比如說在1948年的時候就37年大法官會議規則裡面是二分之一第十二條是二分之一出席二分之一的決議大法官會議應有大法官總額半數出席出席大法官過半數同意使得作為一個決議那到了1952年"},{"start":4000.376,"end":4020.767,"text":"修正大法官會議的準則是三分之二出席二分之一決議那到了一九五八去提高你把他提高四分之三出席四分之三同意有沒有過有曾經這樣過但這是什麼原因這個是因為大法官做成七十六號解釋說你去否認我國大是這個是唯一的民意機關"},{"start":4024.596,"end":4033.22,"text":"立法院就火大了就把你整個憲法訴訟法的部分大法官會議的規則當初叫大法官會議規則你就去把它提高門檻來做這樣的一個報復但是每一次的一個報復裡面其實產生的民意的一個反撲我相信大家都記憶猶新都是記憶猶新最主要"},{"start":4053.615,"end":4081.306,"text":"在2004年的時候你看那個釋字585啊你限定立法院調查權的行使的不過那個時候國新在隔年就去提三檢大法官的專業佳績啊所以大法官也在2005年做成601號的宣告把它宣告違憲可是呢現在這國民黨跟民政黨民政黨到底會不會最後會不會挺國民黨我不知道但我倒覺得這不是誰挺誰的問題啦"},{"start":4083.103,"end":4100.441,"text":"就說在一個任何的修法要有他修法的一個理由修法的理由是怕擔心會有極端會有極端的一個狀況你說比如說三四個這個修法的預設的這種狀況可是我們必須要提出來說從過去到現在從來沒有發生過哪怕"},{"start":4106.073,"end":4116.336,"text":"大家講的台大那個案子有迴避那個部分那還是到九個人還是到九個人也從來不會產生什麼三個到四個憲法法庭"},{"start":4117.688,"end":4130.838,"text":"他這個我們不敢講說他是叫位高權重啊就是說他是一個備受國人尊重大家也知道尤其是學法的人全部都知道憲法法庭他這樣要摸下去你說要改調法定總額要寵下去讓你到最後你因為的一個法定總額放在那個地方讓你開不成會"},{"start":4145.213,"end":4145.373,"text":"國民黨時代如此"},{"start":4173.408,"end":4202.828,"text":"國民黨時代如此,民進黨時代也如此,實行判決那個是一個價值啦,那你可以有自己的價值判斷,那大法官裡面其實啊,其實憲法法庭也好,或者說一般的法庭也好,法官是不應該跳出來辯護的啦,法官本來就應該無語,你要嘛你就去看他的判決書,你就用專業的意見你去跟他提出批判,這個都是可以的,可是重點就是說,立法院沒這個能力啊,"},{"start":4203.848,"end":4223.903,"text":"立法院沒有這個能力沒有這個法學素養去對憲法法庭提出對他來抨擊那你只能訴諸政治上的一個力量就只有這樣子而已用這樣的報復的方式我是覺得真的不好吳仲健召委他本身也是法律人我們都是法律人我們都是法律人"},{"start":4224.949,"end":4252.784,"text":"我剛剛講了這些話我說國民黨執政的大法官他所做出的憲法的以前叫大法官會議解釋被我去批評的也很少因為你現在做成的判決書裡面你說就算我同意我也可以部分不同意見書我也可以有協同意見書我也可以有不同完全反對的一個看法都會有這個叫做什麼這個叫做多元的觀點"},{"start":4254.495,"end":4280.277,"text":"這個叫做說你要這個判決你要達成一個權威正反見解全部在那個地方足弓啊所有的人民啊啊讓他很公開的還有法界啊去做一個評論啊啊其實我倒會覺得說以這樣的一個我擔心的最最最最擔心的方式就是如果法定總額一設下去立法院再用同"},{"start":4281.935,"end":4297.495,"text":"通緯權的方式來做一個反對的話整個憲法法庭癱瘓掉對政黨都小事對立法院也都小事因為立法委員薪水照領你也不會痛搞不好還很開心可是對整個制度對過去"},{"start":4300.258,"end":4322.146,"text":"憲法法庭他有可以把整個憲政上的爭議還有人民基本權利的一個救濟你把這個路你把他堵死了我是認為期期以為不可啦這個是我也請提案的翁委員這個是再考慮一下啦真的再考慮一下因為我真的看不出你這個修法那個正當性有強到說那翁委員那個就對了啊"},{"start":4327.506,"end":4346.365,"text":"我們在司法法制委員會就哪怕政府提出來的法案這翁委員你也很清楚我常常都是反對的我很堅持的可是呢我就看了你的提案以後我就覺得你這個正當性非常非常的一個薄弱"},{"start":4347.125,"end":4358.972,"text":"你非常薄弱你把它去除說我對憲法法令很不爽我對一次這個整個立法院的資訊新司法這件事你把它放到旁邊去幹你說你修這個法律的正當性或者那必要性在什麼地方沒有發生過你擔心的事情沒有發生過是啊從過去到現在都已經是如此沒有發生過你說擔心一個噢可能會發生所以我先來預防"},{"start":4376.63,"end":4401.285,"text":"這也不對這也不對為什麼會什麼兩三個來造成不會有這種狀況所以面對外界會去質疑說會實質上癱瘓掉整個憲法法庭的運作你也很清楚啦沒有通過統一權沒有通過就實質癱瘓掉啦難道這樣你會很開心嗎那我請問碰到這種狀況你怎麼辦你怎麼去補救"},{"start":4405.379,"end":4418.549,"text":"立法者怎可如此立法者怎可如此我這個是很嚴肅的一個問題喔很嚴肅的一個問題喔也就是說從盤古開天從過去有大法官會議到後來變成憲法法庭的時候他做出了一個判決裡面老百姓是很遵守的甚至會認為說哪怕過去國民黨在紀元時代就有一個大法官會議在那個地方"},{"start":4435.165,"end":4451.309,"text":"你至少,欸,大法官,你不要開玩笑喔,那政黨太好笑,大法官會議會把你宣告是違憲喔。連戒嚴時期都會有大法官會議的一個運作啊。那我們走入了進入了民主,然後這麼多元,這麼開放的一個社會,我們反而是輕易的說我要憲法訴訟法。"},{"start":4458.291,"end":4466.514,"text":"我來做一個修訂我本立法定總額就是15那你如果是在立法院行使同意權的時候我再打掉幾個就好啦沒啦沒啦六個六個那你永遠憲法法庭全部都癱瘓會不會發生就像你講的很有可能發生但是我不做預測我講萬一發生那你怎麼辦"},{"start":4488.939,"end":4509.989,"text":"百分之九十九確實是人民所提的基本權利的一個受侵害的時候他提起的憲法訴訟啊。真正由行政部門去提出憲法法庭要去徵訟的,不到百分之一啊!不到百分之一啊!如果一個政府機關提出的憲法的一個徵訟,"},{"start":4511.28,"end":4531.898,"text":"假設你認為全部都是挖民進洞的那個都是民進黨的大法官假設你這樣認為說大法官是沒有良心的哪一個政黨提名的全部都是看哪一個政黨我就從剛剛講到現在連國民黨過去連戒嚴連國民黨過去在威權統治白色恐怖那麼愛殺老百姓的大法官會議做出來的決定我們也沒有去這樣質疑他那何況現在"},{"start":4539.611,"end":4561.133,"text":"是各個政黨每一個人一把號,不管是要直播或者開記者會,那個都直接可以向民眾對人民直接來做一個訴求,可是用這樣到最後你把這樣的一個修法,到最後如果是實質來癱換掉整個憲法法庭的一個運作的話,"},{"start":4562.054,"end":4581.294,"text":"再想一下啦,因為我跟你質疑這一些,你也應該很清楚,很有可能要發生的啦,很有可能要發生,那過去的經驗也告訴我們啦,也告訴我們啦,就是說每一次去挑戰大法跟會議喔,這都不是好事啦,因為你如果做,你也可以做八黨啦,"},{"start":4585.444,"end":4591.787,"text":"我老兒子我也不能做太久啦人在當立法委員不要以為當了立法委員你就是最厲害啦我用不客氣講我幾乎從來沒有在批評你的你很清楚我從來不批評你的漂亮的巫婆漂亮的巫婆我告訴你喔這個如果一通過了以後喔這就不是巫婆可以做解釋了我跟你講這就變成說你提這種案"},{"start":4615.953,"end":4616.393,"text":"我開始懷疑喔"},{"start":4643.539,"end":4670.128,"text":"我真的開始懷疑喔不是我是說我說這樣的這樣的這樣的寫出來的一個我提出這一些啊就是說你怎麼會貿然你知道會發生什麼一個法律人我不是不是跟你講了嗎我就講這一些給你聽了安委員我們先等一下那那個中委員你不要問他是不是學法律他就學法律啦"},{"start":4670.988,"end":4671.008,"text":"請審議案。"},{"start":4677.188,"end":4683.231,"text":"我提出的這些理由來做一個懷疑,我也不說他誰的壞,他很漂亮的壞。可是你剛剛已經批評到我的專業,所以我就覺得我需要出來回應啊。不是,我批評到你的專業,我是就事論述在批評。"},{"start":4701.141,"end":4726.2,"text":"我這就你的條文不是你的底子你的底子搞不好你下一步提出來我給你拍手也不一定啊都大大的給你拍手我說你這一個條文讓我這樣質疑好不好不要誤會那那個省委員有要發表意見嗎那麥委員還是先翁委員"},{"start":4727.571,"end":4727.791,"text":"憲法委員翁曉玲"},{"start":4749.291,"end":4752.832,"text":"現有總額就是指實際在任留任的這些大法官就可以做成憲法判決"},{"start":4775.476,"end":4795.033,"text":"此情況基本上是違反我們在講到的這個憲法審理程序的嚴謹性而且大家知道大法官是解釋憲法他相當的程度已經在造憲了我們要修改一個憲法條文的門檻是多高"},{"start":4796.407,"end":4816.372,"text":"不僅是立法院要四分之三出席三分之二同意通過才能提案還要經過全國人民的這過半數的同意覆決才可以修憲大法官少少幾個人他透過解釋憲法的權利就可以去造憲可以去造法這樣子的情形是多麼的危險"},{"start":4824.209,"end":4846.437,"text":"在其他國家,這個大法官,這個憲法法院的法官,他要宣告一個法律文憲,都要三分之二的這個同意啊。我們現在是二分之一的同意。再加上我剛剛說的,以現在留任的大法官,這個不管人數多少,他都可以做成憲法判決。這樣規定合理嗎?我這邊我想請教秘書長,因為您大概"},{"start":4851.107,"end":4877.37,"text":"對於整個憲法訴訟法的規定是十分的了解。我想請問如果說今天有死刑犯再度申請釋憲認為死刑是違憲的那麼以現在的剩下的八位大法官可不可以受理這個案子他可不可以做成他是不是可以開憲法法庭的會議來做成評議"},{"start":4881.502,"end":4882.142,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4902.77,"end":4917.254,"text":"五位大法官就可以做成宣告死刑是違憲的?憲法判決?我先講現在的憲法訴訟法問題是不是五位大法官就可以宣告死刑是違憲的?"},{"start":4931.189,"end":4931.209,"text":"．二．"},{"start":4946.069,"end":4946.969,"text":"我現在講流刃的現在八位"},{"start":4976.533,"end":4999.974,"text":"我都聽得懂翁委員的問題嗎?你就按照問題回答好不好?我真的覺得你作為一個司法院的副秘書長、代理秘書長,你作為一個法律人,你不敢講這個問題嗎?好,副秘書長,您也是法律人,您過去也擔任法官,您應該很了解憲法訴訟法的規定。您就說五位就可能坐城,難道不是這樣嗎?"},{"start":5002.025,"end":5005.306,"text":"我只能說我就是對於現司法院的表現非常的不滿感慨你們太膽怯了這麼簡單的問題"},{"start":5027.308,"end":5053.435,"text":"賣玉珍委員不是選法員都很清楚規定就是如此你的計算方式就是這樣不要在這邊跟我講說什麼極不極端的問題發生是不是好你現在講的狀況是如果八位大法官全員出席或是有六位出席五個座城請問你們現在留院的八位大法官裡面有幾個是十五屆的十五屆大法官出生十五屆法官出生的"},{"start":5057.66,"end":5080.962,"text":"現在留任的實務界裡面法官的是三位,一位是檢察官。好,如果這三位法官,這三位大法官,實務界出身的大法官,過去都曾經與這個申請釋憲案的當事人,都曾經參與過這個申請釋憲案的當事人的相關案件,他要不要迴避?"},{"start":5093.234,"end":5118.883,"text":"好所以呢八位大法官裡面一共有三位大法官曾經參與過先前的案子的審理是不是要迴避嗎要迴避嗎其實是有是有迴避你現在的規定來講就是要迴避嗎是不是你依照你十二條的規定是不是要迴避是吧對不對你八位扣掉三位所以五位大法官開庭審理嗎那做成判決的是幾位"},{"start":5122.759,"end":5130.027,"text":"副秘書長,如果你一直不回答問題,我們是不是可以請楊廷長回答?因為你搞不清楚狀況嘛。"},{"start":5144.462,"end":5147.684,"text":"法律是必須在防弊,就是防止極端的情況發生。我現在是講一個合理的問題喔。"},{"start":5164.073,"end":5167.835,"text":"按照委員的涉提,三位大法官都要迴避的話當然是五位,不過我可不可以補充一下?"},{"start":5188.274,"end":5191.737,"text":"現有總額的三分之二出席是幾位?現有總額的一半一樣是三位"},{"start":5206.3,"end":5214.449,"text":"出席三位大法官通過就可以做成一個宣告死刑違憲的憲法裁判。"},{"start":5224.62,"end":5231.506,"text":"法官出征的大法官只有蔡財臻大法官曾經審理過其中的原因案件李太陽大法官跟楊蕙琦大法官從來沒有審理過這樣的案件"},{"start":5242.114,"end":5270.927,"text":"所以我現在是剛好這一件個案才會有迴避的問題對我現在是要舉例舉例的問題就是這樣對我們要法律為什麼要我們要把這個規定規定的這個想很多的極端情話要要想清楚我們就是要防備防止這種極端的情形出現這就是為什麼其他國家都會特別的規範法就是這個憲法法庭的出席人數他有一個最低的門檻但是我們現在台灣沒有我們台灣沒有"},{"start":5272.051,"end":5291.742,"text":"至於說大法官能不能補齊大法官空轉會不會造成憲法法庭的癱瘓的這件事情跟修法無關我必須說跟修法無關大法官空轉是因為這個法律造成的嗎坦白說不是"},{"start":5293.424,"end":5300.827,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查．一、本院司法及法制委員會報告"},{"start":5319.894,"end":5343.546,"text":"我可以回答嗎?是。是。這個部分我想要說明的是說,整個性有種的制度從國民政府遷台之後,因為就考慮到說因為我國的任命權跟同意權,提名權跟同意權、任命權,它這個部分在不同機關的情況下,有可能造成一個憲政機關的人員缺額。所以當年其實從道爾關17人第一次提名的時候,其實就有缺額5人。"},{"start":5345.27,"end":5363.798,"text":"來臺灣的時候其實當時大法官只有12個人一直在這樣運作的情況之下維持憲法總統的運作確實我們不否認有委員所擔心的可能情形不過一直以來一直以來其實即便是最多缺額的就是在陳水扁總統那時候曾經有4位被否決那現在法庭還是大法官會議用11位來進行處理"},{"start":5366.102,"end":5367.003,"text":"議員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":5392.421,"end":5417.688,"text":"五位大法官或三位大法官作成的憲法判決跟十位大法官作成的憲法判決會不會有差別?我想我可以舉德國聯邦憲法法院為例子。十六個法官分兩庭,一庭只有八個法官。他們宣告法律違憲要多少法官同意?但是他們八個,他們分庭這裡。你只要告訴我他們宣告法律違憲的大法官要多少人?他們其實只要六個人出席。"},{"start":5418.428,"end":5442.674,"text":"所以他們三分之二對他們三分之二他們三分之二四個法官就可以宣告了委員他們分庭一個庭只有八個法官而已其實他們做審判決的統一門檻以人數來說甚至比台灣是更低的那台灣因為我們沒有分庭審理我們是一整個大庭那你告訴我德國聯邦憲法法院的大法官怎麼產生是總統一個人提名的嗎"},{"start":5447.947,"end":5472.725,"text":"不是不是怎麼產生這個部分我可不可以核對一下資料再跟您報告他絕對不會是總統一個人提名的絕對不會是內閣一個人提名的他是國會各方面的大家共同有共識認為這些大法官是適合的我現在要強調的地方就是現在我還沒有提到大法官提名的問題但是很清楚的就是"},{"start":5473.806,"end":5502.902,"text":"無論如何,他們都還是三分之二啊。我們今天在這邊有三分之二做門檻嗎?人家的大法官德國這麼大。報告委員,德國聯邦憲法法院他們是二分之一。我們今天的資料有提。三分之二出席,二分之一。對,他是二分之一。那你為什麼不講日本?你為什麼不講法國?為什麼不講韓國?日本做審判決也是簡單多數。法國也是簡單多數。但是他們有沒有最低的門檻?有,但是他們有搭配配套措施。所以我現在做到的還是要最低的門檻。他們,他們,他法官或者有繼任的制度。"},{"start":5504.703,"end":5522.002,"text":"司法院在乎的是我們沒有配套措施的情況之下,如果只用法定原格的話,那這樣會讓我們沒辦法運作嗎?司法院在乎的是沒有配套措施,那你們之後可以提案,那你為什麼不提案?然後另外我要再講的就是,憲法法庭的審理的這個規則,這固然"},{"start":5525.957,"end":5553.4,"text":"現在是定在這個大法官的這個在憲法訴訟法的第四條啊那麼由司法院定之但是是這個是不是立法授權讓你們可以去定審理規則我今天我認為有些項目不適合立法授權讓司法院去定定那這樣的一個情況這就是我的立法政策的選擇我的立法形成的這個立法形成的自由有立法這個的裁量的空間"},{"start":5554.261,"end":5555.063,"text":"憲法第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5564.517,"end":5592.253,"text":"修改這個就是一個合法合憲的而且屬於立法立法者的一個政策選擇政策裁量的空間我要再次強調的就是剛剛其實司法院講的你們都是說在正常的狀況底下不會發生但是現在就是有可能會有出現不正常的狀況不正常的狀況的憲法法庭做出來的憲法判決"},{"start":5593.154,"end":5594.455,"text":"大法官空轉的這件事情"},{"start":5618.444,"end":5618.464,"text":"請審議案。．"},{"start":5636.621,"end":5648.844,"text":"法律提案有關,我們現在是在建立制度,是在建立一個讓臺灣憲法訴訟、憲法裁判,朝向更為合理、更為健全的方向去發展。剛剛莊瑞雄委員說,高門檻的判決是會走回頭路。"},{"start":5662.199,"end":5689.089,"text":"我想他為什麼不去對大法官說這句話大法官不是才在最近的這個死刑有條件合憲的判決裡面要求各級審的法院法官到一致決啊他怎麼不去批評大法官然後我們現在提高這個高門檻還沒有到一致決耶從二分之一提高到三分之二過去這麼多年來大法官會議不是都能夠運作"},{"start":5690.956,"end":5692.357,"text":"現有總要明定成為法定原額,這樣才能夠讓"},{"start":5718.89,"end":5744.545,"text":"憲法法庭有更多的大法官可以實質的去參與討論出席做成評議。現在看起來這個民進黨其實一直在杯葛這個法案。那很多的律師口口聲聲說我們這個法律條文通過之後會影響到人民的申請釋憲權。"},{"start":5747.27,"end":5775.704,"text":"事實上,上次副秘書長這邊也報告,司法院也報告過,97%的人民申請案,或是99%的人民申請案,幾乎有97%或是95%的案子是被駁回的,是不受理的。你們現在在憲法法庭還有三四百件的案子已經受理了,但是沒有審議。"},{"start":5777.86,"end":5805.622,"text":"對十五位大法官說為什麼不好趕快審呢你們不才是耽擱人民的憲法釋憲人民的這個釋憲救濟權啊現在如果說是把大法官就是讓這少少的留任的這七八位大法官然後讓他們去決定哪些人民的申請案可以受理哪些人民申請案不可以受理我告訴你人民才會大反彈"},{"start":5806.923,"end":5807.924,"text":"委員,我可以跟您說明一下嗎?"},{"start":5829.471,"end":5855.406,"text":"就是針對你剛剛這個部分容我補充一下就是說事實上我們的衛檢案裡面已經受理的案子只有28件那當28件是主案那當然還有包括其他併案那其他的部分其實是我們申請還沒有受理還沒有處理那為什麼都還沒有處理那當然這部分涉及到因為有些案子他非常複雜在等相關機關含糊那今年不可諱言的因為死刑案跟國會法案這個部分"},{"start":5855.786,"end":5855.986,"text":"委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":5871.278,"end":5873.48,"text":"二、本院委員翁曉玲等二．委員翁曉玲等三．委員翁曉玲等三．"},{"start":5894.078,"end":5913.291,"text":"單誤了人民的申請釋憲權。該審理的不用再說了。謝謝你。那麼我想就是說總結就是剛剛所講到的幾個問題沒有就是講得很清楚了啊就是他們一些案子就是沒有審啊"},{"start":5928.194,"end":5948.146,"text":"所以這一百二十八件的審,然後就讓少少的幾位大法官去審。這樣做出來的判決能夠讓人信服嗎?對不對,你們很多基本上不是維持憲刑法律,要不然就推翻,是同樣的邏輯啊,人民會一直信服嗎?我告訴你,其實簡單來說,就是你少數大法官,你做成的憲法裁判,"},{"start":5948.966,"end":5949.006,"text":"委員翁"},{"start":5967.305,"end":5983.489,"text":"但我要說明的是,目前我們新制施行以來的51則判決裡面,絕大多數都是人民申請而做成的。是啊,你們一年只做成多少個判決,你告訴我嗎?才20個嘛,一年做20個嘛,你們今年做了幾個?我們少該努力要去審理那些案子,而不是說你們一直擔憂,好謝謝你們不用再說了。我們連人民申請暫時處分的案件,我們都沒有辦法處理。"},{"start":5990.891,"end":6016.502,"text":"我們連人民申請暫時處分有急迫性案子我們都沒辦法出。你們告訴我現在有幾個有申請暫時處分?不要在那邊說嘛,沒有嘛,現在也沒有。有,我們最近都有收到,跟我們報告。對啊,你們也可以做球啊,你們什麼都可以做啊。而且我告訴你們,這是你們的問題,我是認為說,我還是回到我剛剛講的,錯誤不當的憲法裁判比不做成更可怕。"},{"start":6019.284,"end":6026.471,"text":"大法官沒有足額之前,你們所做的這些憲法判決都會被民眾強烈的質疑。"},{"start":6033.509,"end":6033.75,"text":"憲法訴訟法相當的修正草案。"},{"start":6050.707,"end":6052.968,"text":"字幕由 Amara.org 社群提供"},{"start":6074.773,"end":6075.613,"text":"委員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":6105.353,"end":6129.491,"text":"好那這一個齁我第一個先講一下這一個程序上的一個問題齁就是說呢現在同一個時間齁有非常重要的跟這個不管是大法官的人事案齁還有這一個呃所謂的這一個調查權齁還有選罷法齁這個同時間的協商是院長協商啦齁跟這一個趙偉協商的不一樣但這個時間衝突啦齁所以我一直都還是覺得齁我們這一個協商看起來還是有討論的可能啦齁"},{"start":6130.131,"end":6157.737,"text":"但是應該要延後啦我覺得不是保留所以我不贊成麥委員的講法說什麼保留我們的確應該都還是有討論的空間因為從剛剛發言到現在每一個人的問題其實非常聚焦的所以我的建議是應該是要往後然後再繼續這個協商而不是保留然後到最後由院長協商這是第一個第二個就是為什麼我們要說要繼續協商就是因為這個案件在社會上的爭議其實非常非常的大"},{"start":6158.337,"end":6187.341,"text":"大家也知道明天就會有一些律師他們說要遊行當然我知道趙偉也有批評說這是一個什麼綠營側翼但是我要講一下不是只有不是只有這些立委而不是只有這些這個律師還有全綠還有北綠我想說全綠跟北綠應該不太可能全部是側翼所以我就覺得說在那麼重大的爭議的狀況之下是不是大家能夠緩一緩因為這個很明顯我們的在爭執的點是很聚焦的"},{"start":6187.961,"end":6211.515,"text":"那我現在回到我們這個爭議的,因為等一下還要上去另外一個協商。第一個就是,如果剛剛溫委員一直提到很多的極端狀況,那我還是要講一下,這個極端狀況它發生的百分比,有可能是1%,0.5%,結果你因為1%可能發生的機率,然後要把整個制度做修改,這不是很奇怪的事情嗎?"},{"start":6212.455,"end":6219.678,"text":"如果你認為有1%、2%的機率會發生極端狀況,那你不是應該要做一些條款去針對這個1%跟2%的極端狀況來做修改這樣才對嗎?你怎麼可能會因為1%的極端狀況,然後要把整個的規則修掉?法律原則沒有人在這樣跑的嗎?"},{"start":6232.402,"end":6254.771,"text":"所以再來呢這個我覺得非常重要的一點就是在於說如果我們今天真的認為有極端狀況像剛剛提到譬如說死刑然後如果現在來申請然後多少人依照我們現在迴避的條文就算到最後只有五個人決定或就算最後只有三個人決定這其實是正常現象這也不是什麼極端狀況"},{"start":6256.232,"end":6283.255,"text":"因為畢竟如果他該迴避的就迴避那他如果人數不足人數不足是立法院這邊要不要審的問題這是政治問題所以如果因為政治的問題因為立法院這邊的人士還沒有出來其他的國家在針對這個時候是有針對延任的規定啊德國就有啊我們國家沒有啊如果你真的很害怕這樣的極端狀況那就把類似德國這樣延任的規定定到我們的法律一條而已這樣不就搞定了嗎"},{"start":6284.136,"end":6302.939,"text":"這不是一個條文就可以解決的問題結果你要把整個現有總額的規定做這個修改這 這個法律原則上就一定不符合所以我認同剛剛莊委員講的嘛就是說這個謨言很明顯這是一個法律素養的問題是法律的ABC欸從來沒有人修法是這個樣子"},{"start":6303.9,"end":6330.174,"text":"我昨天也才跟我委員講過你不能說今天門鎖鬆了門鎖鬆了你第一件事情是什麼你要把門鎖關緊嘛你要找鎖匠把這個門鎖看一看嘛結果沒有你說要把門拆掉又或者說我們從今天開始就不要鎖門怎麼可能會有人用這樣的一個方式來修法所以這個一開始的動機還有他一開始所講的理由完全的不充分第二個就是第十二條的問題第十二條他是在講"},{"start":6331.235,"end":6354.934,"text":"回避該怎麼做司法院其實講得很清楚這是一個這是一個跟目前第四條會直接矛盾矛盾在哪裡第四條現有總額現在直接拉到跟法定總額一樣它是個定額你今天第十二條它是浮動數額欸這個在數學上你要怎麼用浮動數額然後用現有的總額法定總額做計算這就是算不了啊這是一個天生的矛盾這是數學問題"},{"start":6356.095,"end":6356.295,"text":"再來還有新舊法的問題"},{"start":6385.197,"end":6409.749,"text":"我都先不要講說剛剛莊委員提到每一個地方的門檻到底一不一致喔如果現在我們新舊法產生爭議的時候到底哪些情況要用新法哪些情況要用舊法這個裡面沒有講欸沒有講的話然後結果現在在協商然後就要出去如果之後就要二讀三讀請問這個爭議該怎麼解決然後更不要講說剛剛莊委員有提到的門檻本來是有一個嚴重的比較"},{"start":6410.609,"end":6429.887,"text":"需要慎重的事情我們可能要三分之二有一些情形我們可能需要二分之一你一致化全部都用三分之二來解決的話那你原來這個比例原則你針對不同的案件要做不同的處理的那個差別何在這個法律原則就已經不具備了嘛我以為比例原則還算是憲法的ABC就是公法的ABC"},{"start":6430.788,"end":6445.251,"text":"然後再講到剛剛他們一直提到這個說他們人都走掉了所以我也不知道這個協商到底問意義在哪裡明明所有的問題都攀在這一邊的明明所有的問題都可以去討論阿就這樣走掉那我們怎麼要討論所以我就說這個牌的時間真的有問題"},{"start":6446.252,"end":6468.664,"text":"再來就是一天到晚講這個國會自治我講兩個點就好了如果國會要自治那難道司法不用自治嗎司法獨立比我們的國會的自治還要來得更強大今天第四條明白規定說這個如何審理的規則是司法院自行定制那為什麼我們可以在第四條直接用這個現有總額的規定然後就做修改這個聽起來就沒有道理嘛"},{"start":6469.204,"end":6469.224,"text":"請審議案。．"},{"start":6488.322,"end":6515.962,"text":"阿這些人邏輯不好數學不好那為什麼每次舉手只要二分之一就可以通過你真的如果對這件事情很在意的話很好阿以後我們所有的法案都三分之二通過阿所有的法案都四分之三通過阿阿你說那這個不就跟修憲一樣了嗎阿這個難道都沒有差異了嗎阿他們現在就要做這樣的事情阿他們就把所有的標準全部一致阿那我們乾脆如果要那麼謹慎的話所有都提到修憲的標準就好了嘛我們立法院以後就全部都這樣玩嘛全部都三分之二嘛這沒有道理嘛"},{"start":6516.562,"end":6538.473,"text":"所以今天這個所有的上面寫的這些理由他完全的不充分動機也是就派翁曉玲委員一個人出來談很明顯其他的國民黨委員他就是要硬推這個法案呢那不然為什麼現在要這樣做一個過水那請問其他的國民黨委員在哪裡他們為什麼不出來再來剛剛蔓玉珍委員講的他要贊成這個提案"},{"start":6540.07,"end":6551.635,"text":"當代法律黃山山才剛刊完文章欸才剛剛刊完文章說他們不贊成翁曉玲委員的提案那現在呢就是黃山山委員的意見不重要嗎"},{"start":6553.579,"end":6575.384,"text":"2015年黃國昌跟著司改會開記者會講了什麼他講說這一些事情如果有二分之一的法官就已經覺得很爛就表示這個法律真的有夠爛當然要用二分之一做門檻這黃國昌在2015年講的請問黃國昌現在講的不算數嗎是不是應該打電話叫他下來樓下說明一下為什麼剛剛按照麥玉珍委員的講法現在要贊成國民黨的提案"},{"start":6576.246,"end":6600.711,"text":"所以從剛剛講到現在我還有一堆都還沒有講這個所有不管是在程序上在修法的理由上在動機上條文的矛盾上所有都是問題耶在那麼大的問題裡面委員會已經做了那麼多的提醒甚至還有一些還可以直接淨附二讀那我們這些爭議如果都不管然後到最後交給院長協商也跟今天一樣講到一半人都走掉了"},{"start":6601.531,"end":6622.293,"text":"然後這個二法就這樣二讀三讀就要通過了然後外面的聲音我們也都不用管這個叫做注重民意嗎這跟注重我們國民黨最喜歡講說他們現在代表多數的民意我們要傾聽民意的聲音現在到底傾聽在哪裡完全不存在啊然後再回到剛剛郭委員講的他剛提了幾點他說其他國家都這樣"},{"start":6623.756,"end":6645.904,"text":"問題是就是不一樣啊其他國家第一個有配套措施第二個其他國家的制度他們選任大法官的方式跟我們不同嘛剛剛硬要去問說德國怎麼做德國是內閣制耶內閣制的提名跟同意的方式本來就跟台灣不同啊所以他沒有台灣的現在這種總統提名立法院結果不審或不同意的這種憲政危機的機制嘛"},{"start":6646.644,"end":6669.088,"text":"那他不需要處理這個機制那他的規定為什麼可以用在我們身上?如果國民黨那麼愛談死刑的話那也很好啊!德國廢死欸!如果都要抄德國的話那現在好啊!OK那我就看國民黨是不是就直接跟著德國然後現在就廢死好了因為反正什麼都要抄德國不是嗎?是不是完全都不用管文化了?也不用管他們的制度了?也不用管他們的政治背景了?是不是都可以不用管了?"},{"start":6669.639,"end":6674.944,"text":"用其他的國家怎麼樣就直接來說台灣應該修法這個是最不負責任的講法第二個他說什麼其他國家很多都是這個什麼這個五位他都會怎麼樣然後其他的國家至少要幾位像剛剛講的德國他其實是8加8"},{"start":6688.877,"end":6703.306,"text":"他不是跟我們一樣十幾個人全部一起做審議他八加八裡面六個出席到時候也是四個人那請問所以溫委員是認為說臺灣的三位四位大法官不值得信任德國的三位四位大法官就值得信任嗎"},{"start":6704.677,"end":6727.637,"text":"這個理由不充分嘛。如果你認為大法官不適格,你認為大法官做的決定你不滿意,你也有你的法學見解。我記得吳宗憲委員那時候在質詢的時候,他也明白的指出哪一些大法官的這個見解,這個趙偉不同意,我覺得這樣很好啊。但如果你對大法官講的內容,跟他講的東西你如果不同意,那你就是在行使你的同意權的時候不同意不就好了嗎?"},{"start":6728.698,"end":6737.912,"text":"這完全是不搭嘎的事情嘛你不認同這一個大法官你認為他的學術素養不夠你認為他做不出這樣的一個決定那你就不同意他不就好了"},{"start":6738.755,"end":6760.689,"text":"你不同意他跟你現在要把制度直接修改成高門檻直接修改成三分之二直接癱瘓現在憲法法庭的運作這不是兩件完全不同的事情嗎?就會回到剛剛一模一樣講的嘛我們在一直在設想一些根本就不存在的極端狀況更不要講說即使極端狀況出現他也是被允許的啊他本來就可以那樣做決定"},{"start":6761.289,"end":6776.757,"text":"結果你用極端狀況來當作一個理由然後把整套的制度都修掉最後造成傷害的是人民去申請的這個權利最後造成傷害的是當時黃國昌在2015年講的那麼清楚的一句話他說如果再用這樣的一個高門檻最後呢"},{"start":6778.038,"end":6807.421,"text":"我們都沒有辦法把真正的惡法把它消除這他那時候他講的話同意的這一個章也是他那時候蓋下去的所以我必須要講就是說我們很不喜歡這種用過水式的方式如果說一點一點來闡明我們講得非常的明白今天光是他的修法的理由跟動機他的理由就是不充分嘛那如果理由不充分是不是要針對這一點再多做說明而不是用剛剛那種因為用這種又是會回到質詢的方式你覺得德國怎樣"},{"start":6808.121,"end":6825.09,"text":"問題是我們現在就不是德國啊然後更不要講說條文之間跟十二條的矛盾該怎麼辦新舊法的矛盾該怎麼辦這個都沒有處理啊然後本來高門檻低門檻的差距因為這樣被消滅了這也沒有處理啊這不就跟那時候國會濫權法案一樣條文一堆矛盾然後就這樣出出去了"},{"start":6825.59,"end":6826.77,"text":"我們還是要尊重每個委員的想法"},{"start":6852.486,"end":6852.766,"text":"委員翁曉玲"},{"start":6873.51,"end":6873.911,"text":"阿這個跟綠營誠意有什麼關係?"},{"start":6885.663,"end":6906.533,"text":"不是啦,剛剛說北綠跟全綠嘛,那我就就這個說明,這跟協商無關齁,因為你剛好提到全綠跟北綠,那我是說因為有很多人在反映,那個會員有在反映,好那這部分我覺得是這樣啦齁,今天的協商其實是不成立啦,那各黨團的意見不一啦,沒有我跟你講齁,對啦"},{"start":6909.437,"end":6910.097,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"16268","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16268","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a010c4563b5e5bf20a587b1cadd1ee0b0cedb79b8bfb08e7994c507bf317d0df355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-14T14:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：一、研商「台灣民眾黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：成立『國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會』就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料，於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會，請公決案。」相關事宜。（台灣民眾黨黨團提議）二、研商有關「公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修正草案」案（國民黨黨團提議）三、研商有關「113年11月6日本院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第6次全體委員會議，議事程序之爭議」相關事宜。（民進黨黨團提議））","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-14T13:30:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T18:01:00+08:00","duration":16247,"影片長度":"04:30:47","委員發言時間":"13:30:13 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總召請發言現在特別謝謝議事處把今天這個各政黨的席次比例以及要代表政黨之間一個總數的席次出來的時候大家按照比例來分配所以這裡要特別"},{"start":2417.935,"end":2441.169,"text":"我們清楚的看到如果說禮拜二總預算追加預算的院會質詢如果是14席的話是7比6比1這很清楚因為沒有人規定一定要是15席"},{"start":2443.725,"end":2466.142,"text":"所以啊這個所以剛剛我有說一定是7比7比1我想這是錯誤的數字在這裡和先敘明所以接下來就是如果大家要完全照我們未來依照這個政黨比例來做各政黨"},{"start":2467.68,"end":2480.46,"text":"不管是職權也好還是這個派席次也好我想這個表是可以用的但是以後未來就是多少個人要上場可能我們大家要討論一下"},{"start":2481.397,"end":2500.252,"text":"因為這樣會影響到．各個黨所推派的．能推派的席次會有不同．所以．霍國璋和總召所．在前一次朝野協商的時候．所提出來的論點．看起來今天議事處也印證這個事情"},{"start":2502.392,"end":2527.467,"text":"所以到底那天是要到底下週二的院會對《總議傳》的推派質詢的人數到底是771還是761既然禮拜五已經做了上個禮拜四已經做了決定那我們就尊重當天的決定當天的決定是771嘛"},{"start":2530.421,"end":2553.429,"text":"當天是七七一所以我們就尊重齁因為大家已經同意了但是下一次的話我們還是要看到底是總數時間上怎麼樣方便以後我們先確定總數再決定各政黨的推判的席次好不好謝謝好 傅坤祺總召不愧是精頭腦一算了清清楚楚先把總數確定再來分配好 請吳世堯幹事長二次發言"},{"start":2554.296,"end":2573.358,"text":"報告院長,我沒有金頭腦,我也是銀頭腦,我至少有銀的。我覺得來釐清這些生長比例非常有必要,因為大家把清楚的遊戲規則講清楚。那我分兩個層次再來補充一下說明,有利於大家未來更確立的把這個制度釐清。"},{"start":2574.219,"end":2589.094,"text":"第一,依照過去還有我短暫的國會經驗﹐歷次的專案報告﹐大概都是推派十五人。我以我們就這一屆好了,十一之一的會期實案專報就是十五人。"},{"start":2589.955,"end":2606.306,"text":"那十一之二就是前陣子進行的電價專報其實一開始議事處預擬的也是十五人七七一但是當時在野黨有黨變認為說他們希望多一點時間十五分鐘想調成二十分鐘行不行"},{"start":2607.026,"end":2622.288,"text":"所以那時候我的發言是希望說還是回到議事規則裡面規定的每一個unit的發言是15分鐘但是如果想要增加的話所以那一次是一個特別的特例變成992但我想我們還是要調回正軌"},{"start":2623.55,"end":2648.91,"text":"所以十五人作為這例次的專報是一個基礎的發言的安排人數然後依著十五的分配就是如同剛剛議事處所提出的七七一那我另外也要提出另外一個計算方式的佐證來證明說七七一確實是應當是悍不可動比如說如果是以一百一十三位立法委員"},{"start":2650.231,"end":2678.664,"text":"的原額的席次來分派政黨比例也就是五十四比五十一比八的話他試算出來的話國民黨是七點一七民進黨是六點七七民眾黨是一點零六所以他進位之後也是七七一那如果說是以那天柯總召有提示過如果是以"},{"start":2684.028,"end":2699.72,"text":"政團一一三的話是用政團包含兩位無黨籍的委員才會變成國民黨是五十二加二五十四然後五十一跟八那如果是以政黨就是回歸法制說的政黨比例來算的話那麼就是一一一"},{"start":2700.701,"end":2717.262,"text":"因為兩位無黨籍他沒有組成一個如果他單獨的話所以會變成是五十二比五十一比八那這樣試算出來呢是國民黨七點零二民進黨六點八九民眾黨一點零八所以他的禁慰也是七七一"},{"start":2718.283,"end":2739.734,"text":"所以我們希望藉由這個正規的機會把這樣子的一個數字的精算科學的依據包括法定的規範還有過去的慣例專報15人所以我們再次確立771是一個非常合理合適的安排那謝謝院長主持謝謝好謝謝銀頭腦我們現在請台灣民眾黨黃國昌黃總召請發言我覺得大家回到數學來算是一個好字這樣就會比較清楚一點"},{"start":2747.84,"end":2762.371,"text":"剛剛院長也講得很清楚從來沒有規定在計算的時候一定是1514的結果跟15的結果就不一樣了那如果我們今天真的要按照54比51比8來算的話數學算起來就是6.75比6.375比1"},{"start":2773.789,"end":2795.256,"text":"有的我再說一次五十四比五十一比八也同時除以八嘛我先跟柯總召報告一下五十四除以八等於六點七五嘛那第二個那五十一除以八等於六點三七五嘛那八除以八"},{"start":2797.068,"end":2819.193,"text":"就是一嘛那你就要看你的比到底是怎麼比嘛在不同的總額宿命之下你會有不一樣的計算結果嘛那你如果說是以最小的黨團台灣民眾黨黨團八個人嘛八個人我們不要占人家便宜就直接算一啊"},{"start":2823.741,"end":2846.1,"text":"對阿你五十四比五十一比八你算出來的結果大概就是這個樣子阿稍微稍微等一下那剛才我看到那個國民黨團這邊誰舉手了沒有齁好阿副總統請二次發言那紅色委員請等一下我要特別強調齁"},{"start":2849.916,"end":2877.983,"text":"這個大家都在立法院啊彼此都很熟悉啊這個拜託一下柯總召本黨有多少人啊你常常給本黨團穿小鞋故意算錯本席再告訴你一次陳昌明先生是國民黨籍本黨有53本黨團有53位國民黨籍一位高金素梅是無黨籍"},{"start":2879.289,"end":2903.514,"text":"如果要拆開來用政團來看的話在立法院沒有在政團裡面的委員勢必要優先給他們質詢勢必要優先給他們質詢所以遊戲規則要講清楚所以永遠要這樣算高精素美委員他一定有他任何的質詢都要排在第一個"},{"start":2905.509,"end":2920.932,"text":"第二、如果你堅持我假裝也搞不清楚陳昌明委員若是無黨籍的話就兩位委員是要先排在政黨之前做議會的咨詢但是我們還是要講清楚"},{"start":2921.753,"end":2950.038,"text":"高精素美委員在本黨團再過來陳朝明委員是國民黨籍所以國民黨籍有53位再加一位無黨籍在國民黨團參與運作所以我們有54位那貴黨51位所以剛剛以八做基礎並沒有錯誤因為如果說他是一的話永遠在任何質詢他是一的話"},{"start":2952.082,"end":2979.537,"text":"那大家就除下來嘛六點七五、六點三、七五比一嘛我們從小到大學的就是四成五入嘛那如果說今天議事處給大家一個完整的一個席次跟一個比例數字出來以後啊我們可能以後就建議啦這個院長、主席這個未來可能我們"},{"start":2981.159,"end":2995.76,"text":"在這個院會的質詢所推派的這個代表上面﹐席次上應該是要先確認是多少席﹐多少席來推派質詢"},{"start":2997.222,"end":3015.937,"text":"之後再決定各政黨分配的席次我想這樣會比較完整我想因為每一次都講我們黨團五十二個其實是不對的本黨有五十三位也因為高金委員是加入本黨團來運作所以是本黨還有五十四位"},{"start":3016.718,"end":3017.459,"text":"三長委員以外的都可以發言嗎?"},{"start":3044.147,"end":3057.77,"text":"我完全知道王宏威首席副組長的意思因為我們黨團是幹部我們先看所以王宏威真的很因為我們現在不是法案的審查我們先確定一下我們黨團協商的好我們請柯總召好不好對不起王宏威對不起對不起好"},{"start":3067.423,"end":3083.684,"text":"對不起喔我想剛才議事書也算出來了那立法院從以前到現在包括這個會期都是15個我們就這個沒有什麼好爭辯的然後你再設計一個14個人的時候這樣配一其實也不是如此啦"},{"start":3085.926,"end":3109.574,"text":"這個問題大家已經討論這樣兩輪了我覺得就這樣定了不必再說以後我們來設計一個十四個或是多少人了對哪一黨有利了過去就沒有這樣處理過去長期來就是出五個這個問題應該到這裡打住了這不是很重大重點好不好好請台灣民眾黨黃國昌總要請三次法也請"},{"start":3112.773,"end":3136.874,"text":"那個柯建民總召柯總召剛剛表達了民主進步黨的立場尊重民進黨表達意見的權利人機會那只是說十五個人到底是定在哪裡我不是很清楚十五個人到底定在哪裡我不是很清楚是定在立法院職權行使法還是我們的議事規則當中"},{"start":3140.27,"end":3151.115,"text":"到底要有多少人這件事情本來就是各個黨團所有的立法委員大家共同決定的事項"},{"start":3153.279,"end":3179.66,"text":"黨團作為代表可以形成共識就形成共識如果不能形成共識的話我們就還是按照民主規則來踐行這個是第一點所以我尊重柯總召所講他希望是用15個人來當作計算基準表達這樣子意見的權利但是我們沒有辦法接受就是以後"},{"start":3181.417,"end":3202.344,"text":"就是用十五個當成是一個剛性的規則這個是前面的前提我可能必須要比較清楚的表達這樣子的立場那第二個層次的問題是說在立法院針對於行政機關我們的諮詢我們的監督台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是說"},{"start":3210.253,"end":3226.205,"text":"把時間做最有效率的使用所以把時間做最有效率的使用我們一天幾點開會預計要處理什麼事情那到下班的時間就算一算總共有多少時間嘛"},{"start":3227.97,"end":3251.019,"text":"那在這個時間的範圍內就盡可能的看怎麼樣使用會最有效率那這件事情的處理跟這件事情的決定恐怕也不是任何一個單一的黨團當然每個黨團可以提出自己的主張其他的黨團也都要尊重其他個別的黨團提出這個主張的權利"},{"start":3253.52,"end":3273.605,"text":"但最後要做決定的時候,恐怕也還是要大家來一起做決定所以,上一次在院長調和抵擋之下,決定771我簽字的時候,我也很清楚的跟院長表達因為上一次協商的時候,院長也說了話"},{"start":3275.606,"end":3288.374,"text":"那大家都表示和諧所以我就簽了那個字但不代表說以後這個就絕對會成為一個剛性的慣例我想這個基本立場的表達還是要說明清楚"},{"start":3292.847,"end":3316.685,"text":"我就從剛才黃榮昭最後一句話和諧這個我為什麼要講這個事情呢其實從過去時代一樣我想黃榮昭也曾經在時代一樣有營運黨你問邱正元都很清楚這個數格就是長期以及我進到立法院以來就是這樣"},{"start":3317.586,"end":3345.383,"text":"就是已經形成的憲政慣例沒有寫在什麼名字沒有寫在任何的文字上這已經形成憲政慣例我們就以尊重不要笑這個是大法官常常用這個名字那這個已經這麼三十年來我在這裡都看到這樣的事情那我們今天也過去也是這樣的進行常常我就就這樣不要吵我就讓給你一個因為這個不是執行多少人並不是一個輸贏的決定"},{"start":3347.344,"end":3373.362,"text":"坦白講,會說的,剛才說的兩個剛才說的就很厲害所以我是覺得這個事情應該到這裡應該可以結束了因為我們在這裡能夠開始設計哪一個對國民黨最有利每一個派系在變來變去我想也不是韓院長所樂見的從以前到現在都如此那這個也不是說這個很重要"},{"start":3374.082,"end":3389.857,"text":"甚至在委員會上也是這樣的處理我相信大家應該也你剛剛黃董大夫最後一句話我們這個題目應該到此為止就是核協議新的先進管理已經三十年來了我想是不是往下走比較重要"},{"start":3396.898,"end":3421.932,"text":"蔡署長您要發言阿謙我想我們用了好多的時間在討論這個發言的政黨比例事實上如果我們秘書處這邊已經有算出了這樣的一個最精準的數字那應該就是大家就用這樣的數字來做未來討論的基準那這樣就很公道而且不會在朝野協商公還沒有進入政體"},{"start":3422.772,"end":3450.763,"text":"在討論這個小數點的討論．到了感情已經抓一半所以我是覺得如果剛剛像黃國昌總召所說的他民眾黨要算一可是民眾黨為什麼要算一這一件事情事實上從秘書數的數字來說就不是這個樣子就是說他們比例上在不同人數然後再換算回去這個就是"},{"start":3451.383,"end":3477.699,"text":"所謂這個統計學的一個算法不會有說除一幾然後這個民眾黨算一然後再去算除一幾因為人是沒辦法被區分說半個人或0.6個人所以他還是要回到統計的數字才是有意義的那我想如果我們在15人從過去我們在於質詢安排上15人然後有771的比例那大家也都同意這樣我們應該就要進行下去"},{"start":3479.66,"end":3507.608,"text":"那過去事要委員在上一次的時候用九九二嘛對不對如果那一次的九九二是二十人的話那應該是十九一嘛所以那一次來說上國民黨也算是禮讓一個人給民眾黨不然他也不會到變成九九二的數字那所以我想這個表很好我們未來討論就用這個表做基準然後先決定人數然後再決定這個比例那大家都沒話講了好"},{"start":3509.136,"end":3526.576,"text":"借差異於書記長謝謝林思明書記長請發言是謝謝院長我想大家就這個問題不要再喋喋不休的再吵下去其實院長我們非常感謝今天我們議事處整理出這個科學的一個數字出來"},{"start":3527.657,"end":3553.577,"text":"所以依照這個科學的數字我們知道整個政黨的比例在我們立法院未來要分配席次都可以依照這一張來做很明確的一個規範但是我是要特別澄清一下我們十五位的一個人數本市諮詢的人數這是憲政慣例嗎我想我聽到這個我嚇一跳我們立法院是立法院自己有自治的我們立法院自己自我規定說我到底要幾個人"},{"start":3555.198,"end":3574.73,"text":"幾個人來做這個質詢的人數所以我想這個不是一個憲政慣例這叫我們立法院的議事慣例我想這個要澄清一下這是我們的議事慣例所以這慣例我覺得我們OK我們可以接受就依照這張科學的數據來未來排定我們的人數以上謝謝謝謝黃國昌總請發言"},{"start":3579.413,"end":3605.319,"text":"那個剛剛參與委員所講的話我很贊成以後就先決定人數就按照那個人數來分配比例這個是一個最清楚的規則所以也不存在說一定是從十五來開始計算的問題因為我們第一句話就是先決定人數然後再從這個人數來決定比例我想這個規則把它立下來就好了至於說未來的人數"},{"start":3606.719,"end":3616.356,"text":"大家有不一樣的看法那都可以表達嘛那也沒有說以誰講的人數是絕對的人數我想這個原則把它建立起來就好了"},{"start":3617.475,"end":3641.95,"text":"其實今天這個會議在進行到現在其實都很和諧也很順利大家也都就科學術來表達自己的意見也非常的好那容許我先把這個我們前天所據的一百一三零度中央政府總預算追加預算我們確定七七一這個事情我們這次先定案後續之後我們再來說好不好我們一部非常感謝各位幹部黨團幹部非常感謝接下來我們就要處理大法官"},{"start":3642.85,"end":3662.083,"text":"人事同意權的實質問題．我們現在請議事處委完全按照各位黨團幹部上次所交代的我們草擬了A、B兩個版本A、院會時間B、委員會的時間那各位先參考這A、B兩個版本大家討論完畢以後看能不能接受"},{"start":3663.155,"end":3684.879,"text":"如果能夠達成共識那最好如果不能達成共識我們再來草泥看有沒有C的版本請大家參考一下我們休息三分鐘之後我們就開始請大家消化一下好不好我們休息五分鐘大家消化一下手上的資料這個就完全根據各位上次所要求的我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":3693.438,"end":3703.86,"text":"可不可以把上一次的協商結論放在那邊?這跟我們一樣,不一樣不一樣。這張它是不一樣的。這張可不可以議事人員補劃一下考試願和給我們?上丟的。這張是舊的。"},{"start":3720.017,"end":3730.748,"text":"二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修"},{"start":3743.362,"end":3750.93,"text":"一、民眾黨黨團提議．立法院黨團提供相關資料．立法院黨團提供相關資料．立法院黨團提供相關資料．立法院黨團提供相關資料"},{"start":3765.452,"end":3789.404,"text":"而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修。．三、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修"},{"start":3790.765,"end":3795.188,"text":"而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．成立法院總統委員會．立法院總統委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3817.846,"end":3830.258,"text":"A版除了公聽會跟那個提問的時間跟我們不同以外其他的都一樣A版公聽會我們是定在二十五然後它是定在十二月二號"},{"start":3834.902,"end":3851.11,"text":"公聽會他的十二月二號是在這裏好我們是十一月二十五啦然後提問的位置他們比較晚他們到二十八他們到十一月二十八提問這裏二十八那我們是十八就可以提問他們是二十八才送的"},{"start":3856.553,"end":3858.634,"text":"十二月二號,其他的都一樣"},{"start":3883.937,"end":3884.678,"text":"其他若有。﹖"},{"start":3899.035,"end":3899.355,"text":"我們在這裡﹖"},{"start":3921.645,"end":3925.046,"text":"與民眾黨黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":3950.983,"end":3952.11,"text":"而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修"},{"start":3960.592,"end":3966.697,"text":"提供的資料﹚立法院黨團提供的資料﹚提供的資料﹚"},{"start":3982.088,"end":3987.711,"text":"三十一三十一三十一三十一三十一三十一三十一三十一"},{"start":4011.854,"end":4022.04,"text":"而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．立法院黨團提議．一、研商有關"},{"start":4034.235,"end":4035.676,"text":"二、研商有關 強制復讐"},{"start":4061.635,"end":4076.863,"text":"而非公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．一、研商擁有公職人員選舉法部分條文修．二、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．一、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．二、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．一、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．二、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．一、研商擁有公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修．二、研商擁有公�"},{"start":4085.884,"end":4093.051,"text":"二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修"},{"start":4450.983,"end":4472.5,"text":"再次感謝各位黨團幹部非常感謝在休息前請大家把這個有點時間來消化一下請各位黨團幹部就我們議事處所炒您的AB兩個版本司法院大法官人士同意權請大家對於這個時程安排有沒有寶貴意見請好請柯總召"},{"start":4480.307,"end":4498.586,"text":"就是用宴會時間那我是覺得還是用宴會時間或是用委員會時間會佔領在統一上來審查嘛那這時間都可以安排了所以我們立法院現在有提出來A版齁我們過去我們是可以接受的"},{"start":4501.562,"end":4512.659,"text":"謝謝克總召現在提出來民進黨團對於A版完全接受請問其他國民黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團能不能接受A版請黃國昌總召發言"},{"start":4516.111,"end":4531.08,"text":"跟院長還有其他各位黨團代表說明我們認為說就司法院人士同意權的部分召開全日委員會審查的時候盡量不要佔掉院會寶貴的時間那個院會寶貴的時間院會有院會接下來因為十一月的時候"},{"start":4535.402,"end":4554.419,"text":"感覺起來因為有很多法案都還在協商運動期嘛那十一月的時候就把它拿來處理考試委員我們上一次在院長的說明之下就考試委員的部分我們是同意了那但是邁入啊十二月以後十二月以後你如果說佔掉"},{"start":4557.208,"end":4574.127,"text":"司法院人事同意權參加那麼多院會的時間變成的是我們實際上面院會可以處理其他法案的時間只剩兩天那嚴重的去壓縮到所以我們台灣民眾黨黨團認為是以B版為比較適合的時間"},{"start":4578.332,"end":4592.324,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召我先跟各位黨團幹部報告一下如果用A版的話大概我們院會有兩剩下兩次的時間如果用B版的話我們院會大概是有五次左右的時間這是約估那柯總召請再發言國民黨團請準備我們大家打開天窗說這樣話"},{"start":4594.645,"end":4609.444,"text":"已經在上一次已經確定是用宴會時間那這一次用宴會時間照黃國昌委員所談的只剩兩次宴會時間還有上午還有上午也可以"},{"start":4610.365,"end":4626.895,"text":"那我知道我們也不會愚蠢到說把這個時間帳帳滿了以後讓我要面對比較比較比較大家會有衝突性的法案會不見不會處理不可能是這樣的那如果不外乎就選罷法嘛憲法訴訟嘛還有參考法嘛"},{"start":4630.477,"end":4647.084,"text":"那這個一天都夠了那其實有兩天那至於條案法案就是沒有爭議性大概就念過去很快那過去就是這樣所以這個時間你不要擔心就是說我們在設什麼局"},{"start":4648.424,"end":4669.874,"text":"該面對的我們還是要面對啦,什麼在講啊。這件事不可能像我所說的沒處理嘛,今天你在朝廷選了,委員會協商了嘛。那才有辦法乃至於選辦法嘛,都是大家要面對的。在這個我們都是很清楚,也不能是逃避,也不是把這時間將到我們,大家沒有辦法處理。"},{"start":4671.455,"end":4691.802,"text":"這一點我可以很坦白的講所以上次我講過有一天就過了一天到兩天就可以處理掉了這個我總還是比較建議啦既然前面都是恩怨會嘛那這才是怨會因為委員會一直排下來當場我們還有很多事情要處理"},{"start":4693.742,"end":4708.117,"text":"總預算還有特別預算等等還有今年的公司預算等等都要處理我們把法定的事情再有秩序安排該面對就大家去面對那實行無論啦本來就是這樣啦"},{"start":4710.643,"end":4739.442,"text":"好 謝謝柯總召發言大家可以知道他是個光明磊落的男子漢好不好 國民黨團請發言黃國昌總統請準備謝謝院長 院長我想我們上一次絕對沒有像柯總召講的時候同意都是用院辦其實我想今天如果大家要和諧的話那我想考試院我們就尊重民進黨的意見我們就是由院會來做處理那這個司法院的審視審查我想我們尊重民眾黨的意見"},{"start":4741.684,"end":4759.246,"text":"國民黨對司法院尊重司法院的意見其實我們看這次如果依照B版的一個排案的時程就是說我們在十一月的第三個禮拜就開始來處理我們司法院的正式審查"},{"start":4759.907,"end":4775.594,"text":"在第三個禮拜的院會二十六號做推薦各專家學者的審查小組名單二十七號以前提出說明問題那麼在十二月進入第一週我們就辦公聽會這個也是跟A版一樣那我們在第二週"},{"start":4776.855,"end":4798.45,"text":"第二週我們都來進行整個司法院的一個人事的一個審查用第二週來做這個全面的審查然後到了第三週我們就做一個表決我覺得這樣時程的安排呢也不會壓縮這個我們院會的事情因為院會真的有很多報告事項還有討論事項要處理所以我們利用一週"},{"start":4799.29,"end":4824.879,"text":"十二月的第二個禮拜我們來處理這個我們你們很關心的考試司法院的人事審查我覺得很妥適啦所以希望說這個民進黨能夠尊重這個我們在野黨的意見以上謝謝謝謝林思明蘇議長的發言他的重點他是國民黨團是孫悟空金箍棒可長可短可以配合考試院配合司法院謝謝接下來黃國昌總要發言請吳世堯幹事長準備"},{"start":4828.413,"end":4844.432,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團第二次發言針對剛剛柯建民總召所指教的事情我們向來都是打開天窗說兩話沒有要迴避什麼事情也沒有要逃避什麼事情我們也不會用什麼資訊去度什麼致富"},{"start":4845.713,"end":4873.806,"text":"打開天中說亮話就打開天中說亮話第一個上次上次在協商的時候我覺得必須要澄清一件事情絕對沒有剛剛柯總召所說的所謂院會的時間來處理達成共識這個事情我覺得前提要先確認要不然的話我們上次不會去處理有關於考試院跟考試委員的部分"},{"start":4875.166,"end":4896.023,"text":"也在上一次協商的時候其實我就已經主張過希望全院委員會不要去佔用到委員會的時間因為接下來要處理的法案可能除了剛剛柯總召所講的那些事情以外還有另外一個介紹的保護法那個也是到十二月的時候我們排"},{"start":4896.984,"end":4923.631,"text":"都會按照選項冷凍期過了到院會我們該處理就要處理的事所以在這樣的情況之下就有關於司法院人事同意權的部分我們還是會認為不要佔院會那麼多的時間希望把院會空下來其他該處理的法案我們就還是都要處理謝謝黃國昌總的發言吳思堯幹事長請發言"},{"start":4927.674,"end":4950.823,"text":"好謝謝院長我想民進黨團主張用院會的時間來處理原因很簡單因為我們的總預算那現在都各個委員會加緊在審議當中我們其實之前因為在協商過程當中其實就已經有七十一天沒有用嘛所以我們現在趕快也謝謝各位會確實都已經在排案了"},{"start":4951.943,"end":4979.764,"text":"這個會期也不是只有一個總預算我們這個會期是四大預算案要審查包括前瞻包括台電追加減還有國營事業預算所以預算案的量非常大另外呢人事同意權也還有可能明天NCC組織法處理完之後NCC的人事同意權還是要回到委員會處理還有公平會的人事同意權要回到委員會處理所以我們委員會除了要因應總預算四大預算案還有另外兩個人事案"},{"start":4980.504,"end":5006.877,"text":"所以說委員會的時間真的很緊繃那回過頭來看如果用院會的時間來審議大法官員是同意權讓院會都沒有時間處理法案的嗎?不請大家可以看一下剛剛做的這個表A版裡頭我們還有預留了12月24跟12月27兩個Four day的院會Plus三個Half day"},{"start":5007.257,"end":5031.492,"text":"三個半天的院會就是十二月十三十二月二十跟十二月三十一所以有兩個four day跟三個half day都可以處理法案以現在法案的量因為這個會期是預算會期法案的量真的沒有大家想像要清倉那麼多的法案這個我們大家都可以預估的出來所以我們也確實盤點了幾個到期"},{"start":5034.874,"end":5058.052,"text":"協商期、冷凍期可以參與表決的選罷法然後這個憲法訴訟法、裁劃法然後還有黃總召力推的監閉者保護法這個我們都預留了時間也可以處理到這個大家真的兩個四天跟三個半天絕對可以如果還不夠你可以再去加開院會嗎"},{"start":5059.413,"end":5066.881,"text":"調整一天的委員會時間加開院會也是可以的但是回過頭來講正因為我們的預算現在排審已經非常緊了"},{"start":5069.281,"end":5097.57,"text":"因為我們之前沒有辦法沒有就是復委時間拖得比較久嗎這不好意思我們現在必須面對要趕進度然後我再講還有這個人事權也要在委員會行事然後預算案前瞻追加減我相信大家都想要嚴格跟非常嚴謹的審議所以請大家這個沒有什麼沒有什麼政治的盤算沒有什麼什麼什麼的就只是單純希望讓審預算的時間不要再受影響到"},{"start":5098.83,"end":5125.297,"text":"四個預算案還有兩個委員會要審的人事統一權那你們擔心院會不夠處理法案的時間並不會發生所以再次希望就是說而且對啊我覺得這個應該很OK啦這個院長也可以採視一下我是希望透過我們的說明讓大家可以知道謝謝那個國民黨團要不要補充發言王偉維首席副書記長請發言"},{"start":5126.84,"end":5156.289,"text":"好謝謝謝謝院長再繼續再幫我們協調有關於考試院跟司法院人事同意權的問題那事實上在上一次的我們的協調會裡面我們對考試院的部分其實大家是有達成共識那但是在司法院的部分當時就是考慮到就是會不會太過佔用了這個院會的時間所以呢今天在做這個安排及考量"},{"start":5156.989,"end":5170.915,"text":"那我也必須說我們可以看到從下個禮拜開始按照現在如果按照A版的這個安排的方式我們大概包含星期二星期五有15個15個院會的時間但是呢因為19號也安排了那個追加預算的詢答"},{"start":5178.999,"end":5193.954,"text":"那所以其實我們比較完整的院會已經被壓縮為只有三天比較完整的院會那省預算當然很重要但是我們不能說院會不重要所以如果按照"},{"start":5194.874,"end":5199.617,"text":"A版考試院人士幾乎都占用了院會的時間,到了司法院人士也幾乎都在占用院會的時間,雖然有的好像是只留給你一個上午的時間,"},{"start":5210.324,"end":5211.525,"text":"主席﹚立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":5230.673,"end":5235.496,"text":"李鴻B版所安排的在委員會召開全院委員會一氣呵成對十二月的第二周我們一氣呵成來完成審查那麼事實上我覺得對於整個的議事運作也不用把整個人事審查"},{"start":5250.023,"end":5255.149,"text":"拉到這麼就是哩哩啦啦可以一氣呵成的能夠完成審查我想對不管對朝野兩黨來說就是這樣重要人士的審查就是大家一定會嚴格審查而且也已經"},{"start":5265.18,"end":5271.308,"text":"二、研商有關法部分條文修二、研商有關法部分條文修二、研商有關法部分條文修二、研商有關法部分條文修二、研商有關法部分條文修"},{"start":5284.096,"end":5290.926,"text":"司法院的部分我們還是留下一些完整的院會讓我們能夠做充分的來做充分的討論充分的討論會比較好一點的謝謝王文威首席副局長柯總統請繼續發言"},{"start":5301.195,"end":5319.537,"text":"我記得上次我們在討論這個時候就是院會要處理考試委員的同意前行使的時候也觸及到這個問題也就是說有些法案什麼要處理所以我那時候有講過就是留一下空空白的時間院會來處理那現在我讓議事處也留了兩天嘛"},{"start":5320.698,"end":5336.483,"text":"那我們今天要談的就是增加一個吹哨子保護法那雖然保護法審查報告都還沒出來但是呢那所有這一說全部來得及處理所以都不會有影響的我們有兩個兩個前天還有兩個半天"},{"start":5338.778,"end":5364.527,"text":"三個半天,兩個前天嘛。不行,韓院長,你說加開A會,我們絕對會同意的。好不好?所以這個應該是這樣的安排比較合理啦。謝謝,我綜合大家三個黨團的發言,容許我,我們根據各位的要求提出了A、B兩個版本,但是一邊堅持以院會為主,另外一邊堅持以委員會為主,但是事實上,"},{"start":5365.447,"end":5394.048,"text":"我們在調控了一個C版就是也有部分是院會也有部分是委員會沒有問題我們把C版唸給大家聽一下因為總是你多一個選擇嘛如果最後你們否決他完全沒有問題我們原本意思是這邊完全接受但如果覺得說兼顧到兩邊的擔心的問題你可以聽聽看這C版我知道你有備而來但這花下來就好不要唸了好我們先發到每一個黨團幹部手上C版"},{"start":5411.384,"end":5423.774,"text":"對各位現在在手上這個C板是完全有兼顧大家所擔憂的地方那也都做了一些去蕪存金我們請議事處的高處長唸給大家分析給大家之後"},{"start":5425.137,"end":5433.903,"text":"如果能達成共識,我們立刻就確定。不能達成共識,我們會休息讓大家私下討論。現在我們請稍微等一下請高處長來唸給大家聽"},{"start":5436.462,"end":5458.623,"text":"跟各位黨編說明西版的部分就是一個參考我們重整A版跟B版我們只是對於全院委員會的這個開會時間我們在12月10號利用一天的院會時間然後利用另外兩個非院會的時間去安排密集的審查四百年大法官那這個等一下大家還可以參考看是要怎麼去"},{"start":5459.304,"end":5483,"text":"去修改或是怎麼樣最主要的不同就是說我們重整有部分是院會日部分是這個非院會日然後做一個稀板那他投票日呢也是在我們這個會期結束之前12月31號前面的那一週12月24號就可以完成大法官的統一權投票以上好請柯總召請這個稀板喔黃國昌委員絕對不會答應"},{"start":5485.177,"end":5511.629,"text":"為什麼呢?因為這沒有保護法這沒有保護法現在審查報告都還沒出去所以你在十一十二月十一到十二號根本來不及一個月我是覺得這個安排有一點欠缺反而更加麻煩既然那處理就很透明的處理嘛其實大家都來得及這是一個問題那一周是那個比較少是本黨都召委啦"},{"start":5512.609,"end":5539.556,"text":"我是覺得這個十二、十一和十二人一個月都還沒到,那怎麼處理?怎麼處理潔癖者?所以現在院會這樣安排,現在這樣安排十二、二十四、二十五那節約來得及。所以柯總召您對11版是保留的?協商一下好不好?好,了解。那個黃國昌總召剛剛柯建民總召非常關心你,你請發言。"},{"start":5540.629,"end":5563.261,"text":"我覺得第一個是柯總召是我們立法院的老前輩大家都很尊敬他只不過說尊敬歸尊敬我覺得各個黨團就表達自己的看法就好了先去說其他的黨團一定會如何如何恐怕也漸越了發言的分際自己的看法就講自己黨團的看法就好了"},{"start":5564.782,"end":5577.347,"text":"原則上台灣民眾黨黨團認為用委員會B版是比較好但如果說最後不得已要用C版來當作共識的結論的話那剛剛柯總召"},{"start":5580.608,"end":5608.207,"text":"的預設恐怕有點錯誤必須要更正若院長出面調核點用C版的話台灣民眾黨黨團可以免予同意因為我們總是協商嘛院長都拿出C版的那我們就C版大家各退一步用院長拿出來的C版我們可以免予同意但是如果大家還是要固執即建的話那我們還是認為用B版是比較好"},{"start":5608.567,"end":5616.955,"text":"好的,我們現在台灣民眾黨表達說,如果C版當然達成共識,台灣民眾黨完全支持,國民黨團請發言,蔡依瑜書記長請準備,對不起,事由岡長,因為蔡依瑜她先舉手,國民黨團請表達意見。"},{"start":5625.742,"end":5644.912,"text":"是謝謝院長院長我對C版是把就是其中第二週就其中一天的委員會跟院會就做對調就是還是連續三天再做審查所以我想這樣的設計我想我們基本上我們也是同意我們就尊重院長這樣的一個條文"},{"start":5647.253,"end":5667.78,"text":"若是在九、十、十一這三天星期四接避者保護法你有沒有算到那天你來做黨來講你這部分你是不是你自己看沒有稍微等一下因為蔡易瑜剛才蘇議長準備發言好的你表達你的立場就好沒問題我們現在請蔡易瑜蘇議長請發言"},{"start":5674.862,"end":5695.537,"text":"我想因為我們接下來的這個距離這個會期的時間真的是不多那有總預算然後有追加預算有前瞻預算有這麼多法案要處理那如同我們在上一次協商的時候大家都講到說基本上如果你排委員會"},{"start":5696.792,"end":5721.664,"text":"大家會在委員會處理。」那如果你這個全院委員會的時候基本上很多人都是說輪到質詢的時候才要去沒有質詢的話他可能在忙別的事所以那天我們院長也說希望多一點人到場聆聽嘛所以有這樣的一個前提所以我們還是主張說A版的好處就是我們在院會而且我們是用下午排全院委員會"},{"start":5722.785,"end":5723.305,"text":"《國安法案》《國安法案》"},{"start":5739.42,"end":5760.207,"text":"委員會沒有辦法跟這個全院委員會同時同時召開所以就會浪費的委員會而且就我這樣我剛剛了解一下如果以這個十二月九就是吸版的這個全院委員會那一週那一週勒幾乎都是民進黨在擔任召委的時候"},{"start":5761.528,"end":5778.104,"text":"所以我們民進黨我們希望說我們要處理預算所以我們會積極的要去排預算所以如果要排全院委員會是國民黨跟民眾黨希望用這個委員會的時間來排全院委員會的話那是不是可以避開這一個禮拜"},{"start":5783.155,"end":5811.005,"text":"所以蔡書長你一定是說避開十、十一、十二我們是主張A啦因為A版的話它的好處就是說委員會還是可以繼續召開嘛因為委員會跟院會跟全院委員會沒有辦法同時召開那確實會浪費了委員會的時間了解所以我覺得A版還是比較好然後如果他們有重要的法律案基本上都還有半天的時間所以我覺得A版才是真的是比較好"},{"start":5811.365,"end":5835.092,"text":"蔡書記長還是一樣堅持A版請黃國昌總召請二次發言我想可能等一下請議事同仁稍微說明一下全院委員會在排會的時候按照我們過去這幾年所出現的狀況是不是全院委員會一開其他委員會就沒有辦法再開"},{"start":5837.367,"end":5846.928,"text":"2016年以前似乎是這樣但2016年以後似乎就不是這個樣子了那是不是可以請議事的同仁稍微說明一下"},{"start":5848.67,"end":5875.263,"text":"來我們請高處長來請跟大家報告過去全院委員會在召開期間各常設委員會的召委原則上會蠻尊重全院委員會所以他就會不會去排相關案子但是在上一屆的時候因為常設委員會有一些特別的案子召委覺得要趕快排所以他就在全院委員會期間也就排了常設委員會的這個特定議程其他委員會就有時候不排"},{"start":5875.783,"end":5901.329,"text":"那這最主要是因為涉及到那個常設委員會的召委跟全院委員會之間他的那個時程安排那我們全院委員會主要是進行一些審查會議有些都是預定好名單了那常設委員會的話就是個別議案啊所以這個最主要是過去已經有不一定是這樣子那所以這一次如果大家有決定要某某事的話全院委員會什麼當然是可以做按照過去的方式去加以考慮以上報告"},{"start":5902.694,"end":5922.643,"text":"我們高處導演跟大家報告完,好,請柯總召請再發言。議員會、前院委員會都是很清楚,還有那個各委員會都很清楚,立法院的組織法規定很清楚。民進黨三十年如一日啊,就從來不會,即便我們少數多數都不會破壞這個規矩。"},{"start":5923.843,"end":5952.839,"text":"那上一屆當然有那時候在野黨有一兩次他們就破了這個規矩但是我們還是堅持回到原來本來就應該怎麼樣就是怎樣你去查可以去查資料或許我們不管在野或者執政都是一樣都一定遵守這個不是要所常常講的我們要照規則來是不是這樣我想這個是顛覆不破的道理"},{"start":5954.454,"end":5954.995,"text":"我們休息五分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":6757.54,"end":6761.443,"text":"再次感謝各位黨團幹部經過我們休息時間的討論我們現在針對這個C版的這個我們大概達成共識三個黨團幹部都已經達成共識我們就請高處長把12月11號調到12月18號"},{"start":6785.425,"end":6798.486,"text":"審查大法官十二月十二號調到十二月十九號那十二月十號我們就審查院長跟副院長大致上是這樣請高處長再整體再念一遍讓大家更清楚"},{"start":6800.229,"end":6815.395,"text":"按照剛剛這個院長的裁示對我們會議按照剛剛院長的裁示原則上我們C版的12月10號院會日是來舉行全院委會的第一天那另外原來C版的11跟12我們就往下移到18跟19"},{"start":6817.616,"end":6840.212,"text":"這兩天那我們的大法官同意權的記名投票因為要間隔十天所以有可能就是要拉到31號那我會按照這個版本先寫出一個想要結論跟付表然後再給大家看來請黃國昌總統請發言院長不好意思我對您沒有不敬的意思但是剛剛在講的時候"},{"start":6842.276,"end":6848.3,"text":"是說你如果往下拉會多動到31號沒有啦本來是24號嘛對啊所以你就會影響到31號那天本來會開的院會嗎我有說錯嗎31號哪一本來就大法官啊"},{"start":6878.157,"end":6881.51,"text":"不是啊,那我就沒有要答應用A版嗎?"},{"start":6895.91,"end":6909.256,"text":"方才如果按照把十二月十一號十二號這兩天是拉到十八十九因為我們同意權的法律規定就是全院委會審查完必要有個十天的等待期才能夠進行"},{"start":6910.997,"end":6933.384,"text":"這個院會的記名投票如果大家有共識拉成十八十九那那個投票日呢大法院會變落在十二月三十一日那如果說大家不想要十二月三十一要讓到二十四日的話那你的全院委員會的審查最後結束就變成是要往前大概是這樣子好請好謝謝黃總長我們高層回答現在請柯總統發言"},{"start":6938.598,"end":6954.984,"text":"我們本來提出來的大法官的同意前行事就是全部有宴會那個也是大法官投票還是31號根本沒有影響這還是一樣A版的A版加起來還是沒有影響"},{"start":6956.764,"end":6974.02,"text":"也是三十一號嗎?一樣的啦。但是如果說調到十二月四號跟十二月五號的話,就可以在二十四號投票。黃國昌總召的重點在這裡。沒有,我剛才A版也是三十一號嘛。那沒有影響嘛。"},{"start":6977.847,"end":6996.647,"text":"對還是三十一號沒有參與選舉一般還是三十一號不是三十一號嘛那各位黨團幹部如果看大家有沒有其他寶貴的意見如果統合都達成共識我們五十一號暫時我們就暫時不發言好不好我們先確定一下如果大家能不能同意如果能同意我們先把這個確定下來黃榮昭請發言"},{"start":6998.444,"end":7022.383,"text":"不好意思喔我還是認為31號留下來開院會剛剛柯建民總召說是按照他們民進黨團本來希望的A版31號沒有影響嘛對啊那但問題是我們一開始就沒有同意A版韓院長拿出來的是A版不好意思我可以講話嗎沒問題可以柯董請繼續發言黃董導沒問題請"},{"start":7025.066,"end":7046.6,"text":"我說我們要的是B版剛剛我說得很清楚了那我說院長挑喝頂賴拿出C版我們雖然不滿意但是院長挑喝頂賴拿出C版我們可以同意那不管是B版還是C版投票就是在24號沒有任何的變動"},{"start":7052.694,"end":7081.383,"text":"B版也好C版也好都是在二十四號投啊換句話說黃國昌總統就是不同意三十一號投票簡言之你只同意二十四號投票這你的最終你的立場就對了黃國昌幹事長請發言我講一下我講講當然黑院長拿出來的A版是三十一號那我們今天就是說這樣一個大家折衷結果是A加B加C的總合體"},{"start":7082.603,"end":7101.931,"text":"那是最圓滿的嘛沒有一定要在二十四號去投到法官嘛都是A加B加C嘛而可能A也是韓議長已經提出來了雖然民進黨也提出這樣的所以我只覺得這個地方大家不要堅持啦反正大家一個原則我希望韓議長也很清楚"},{"start":7102.851,"end":7131.811,"text":"因為前院委員會要業會時間不可開,委員會就先確定,然後我們在這裡把所有事情做好,一定過了,時間太多了,如果要加開都無所謂,重點是將來副分局總長要比較,要一直跟我們在談的說什麼時候修會,要開到什麼時候,那是我們後世再談吧,我們總是要把所做該做的事情做完,"},{"start":7133.832,"end":7147.338,"text":"這輪可以開到一月二十四號那我希望大家這題不要談這題不要談傅坤吉總召發言然後吳世耀幹掌請準備好請"},{"start":7153.206,"end":7181.81,"text":"其實啊這個因為柯總召過去常常這個法律無邊都會偷天換日所以常常會有一些怪招所以也不要怪在野黨知道你法律無邊常常會有出一些奇奇怪怪的事情所以大家才會說要把院會多留一些時間下來真值點就在這裡那在這裡呢其實我剛剛已經講很清楚"},{"start":7183.274,"end":7195.168,"text":"有沒有院會可以處理法案就是端看我們研會要演到什麼時候研會要演到什麼時候就有多少個禮拜五或禮拜二可以來討論"},{"start":7197.583,"end":7222.814,"text":"甚至我也擔心這個國家的總預算最後時程會來不及全部都要審查完所以甚至我們也跟高處長意思是說高處長也在討論如果一月二十五號國家就已經放年假了我們只能開到一月二十四號的研會"},{"start":7224.465,"end":7231.219,"text":"萬一處理不完呢是八十九號禮拜六禮拜天國民黨團都同意來加開院會來處理"},{"start":7235.854,"end":7261.199,"text":"最好是也乎我們不曉得提了多少案柯總召到時候就高抬高抬貴手大家提案就同意就好了就不要來表決就可以省很多時間所以現在就是說如果我們對研會的事情我想就也請求院長可能最短的時間把研會的事情"},{"start":7262.182,"end":7279.087,"text":"能夠來確認因為很多的委員現在都在擔心這個會不曉得看到什麼時候那大家的所有的地方或者是很多的schedule都沒有辦法排所以我覺得重點重點我是覺得"},{"start":7284.349,"end":7302.226,"text":"各種方面不要這麼堅持吧考試權跟考試院的人事同意權跟這個大法官人事同意權我們都配合了嘛對不對那雖然都沒有來拜訪過我們我們都同意審查了嘛"},{"start":7303.127,"end":7313.722,"text":"事實高度善意時間不要這麼堅持反正照表操課大家一定會順利完成好不好"},{"start":7315.245,"end":7316.146,"text":"黃總召請發言克總召請準備"},{"start":7348.063,"end":7361.914,"text":"我...我剛本來是想建議啦大家有一些想法嘛就是要休息三分鐘但我尊重院長院長覺得不要休息講下去也可以再講下去我就重申我的立場24號投票"},{"start":7364.602,"end":7393.764,"text":"那個我跟副總召報告一下下一次草野協商我們來確定研會到幾月幾號我覺得這個很多委員要做他們這個明年一月份的行程他們心裡也會比較有一個底否則對立法院也不公平這個我們接受副總召剛才的建議下一次草野協商我們來敲定研會到幾月幾號好不好柯總召我們現在休息三分鐘您要先發言嗎還是休息三分鐘無事要幹要休息三分鐘還是你先發言好謝謝"},{"start":7395.796,"end":7396.576,"text":"我們先來休息三分鐘。"},{"start":7429.133,"end":7435.962,"text":"每天破三個種招,折磨著。現在呢?我本來無關清秀,被你們折磨了,現在無關真理了。"},{"start":7444.433,"end":7451.298,"text":"以為要一起來討論人家說隔牆以後不是一棟椅靠過來的不是隔牆"},{"start":7472.992,"end":7481.781,"text":"二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修二、研商有關公職人員選舉罷免法部分條文修"},{"start":7487.705,"end":7516.897,"text":"是否必須提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資料．二、研商提供公職人員的資"},{"start":7519.172,"end":7533.251,"text":"二、研商擔任國務委員會主席二、研商擔任國務委員會主席二、研商擔任國務委員會主席"},{"start":8117.072,"end":8119.633,"text":"好 謝謝黨團幹部感謝我們私底下大家又討論得很密集那接下來請吳思瑤幹事長請發言副分局總召請準備"},{"start":8138.912,"end":8158.368,"text":"謝謝院長今天多次的休息就是因為讓我們三黨能夠好好磋商大家定下來大家都有心趕快來行使司法院人士同意群我想這個沒有問題就只是使用的是院會的時間還是委員會的時間那我們是對於剛剛的A加B加C的共同折中版"},{"start":8159.128,"end":8179.056,"text":"我們是就OK大家既然寫相好就希望能夠來處理所以如果是A加A、A加B加C的這種版就是會把十一月十八號啊對不起十二月十八跟十二月十九兩天拉拉來作為全院委員會大概是做這個調整"},{"start":8180.456,"end":8197.328,"text":"那整個行使的同意權的投票的表決也因為要十天來做審查報告所以他必須落在司法院的同意權的進行投票是在十二月三十一號那這樣是一個兼顧在院會跟委員會時間的橫評"},{"start":8198.929,"end":8214.099,"text":"民進黨團是可以支持這樣子的一個折衷版那我是誰也想要就如果是採這個幫這個版本的話那還是要提醒一下群議委員會的開會的時候常設委員會到底能不能開"},{"start":8215.14,"end":8216.58,"text":"民進黨在多數的時候有破了這個慣例。我來做一下這個說明。"},{"start":8232.403,"end":8256.777,"text":"依據我們挑出來是議事處提供的資訊．全院委員會開會時．網曆、常設委員會是都不召開的這個是慣例．也是大家都遵循的一個模式那上兩屆．第九屆跟第十屆．確實有人破了這樣子的慣例那是誰呢需要我"},{"start":8258.295,"end":8277.244,"text":"來做一個報告嗎?第九屆九之二之一全院委員會進行司法院院長、副院長、大法官公聽會的那一周安排委員會也召開的是內政委員會的陳昭明委員張偉陳昭明張偉財政委員會的賴士寶張偉司法委員會的許淑華張偉"},{"start":8284.747,"end":8307.153,"text":"在九之二之一同樣也是那一次會另外還有陳學聖委員在教育文化委員會也召開了常設委員會這都是在第九屆行使司法院院長、副院長、大法官、公聽會的時候常設委員會破例召開的我剛剛唱明的這些召委們是哪一個黨我想大家都可以辨識"},{"start":8308.453,"end":8324.571,"text":"那至於在第十屆進行監察委員同意權的行使的時候同樣使用了委員會的時間來召開全院委員會那長壽委員會破例來召開的召委是誰呢是未還委員會的另外一周委員"},{"start":8325.612,"end":8352.91,"text":"所以我就很據實我不喜歡疑問答問我不喜歡把話含在那裡好像指涉別人那既然有人指涉誰壞的規矩我就必須清楚地去調出議事資料那是哪些委員擔任召委的時候在全委員會審查的時間還破例去召開委員會那這些召委不好意思都是國民黨的委員但我們希望以後都不要"},{"start":8353.919,"end":8363.323,"text":"好,因為剛才有人問,我就需要回答,那我們希望說A加B加C的折衷版,希望院長才是,謝謝。好,謝謝吳思堯幹事長發言,接下來請傅昆吉總召請發言。"},{"start":8376.929,"end":8403.64,"text":"我是這樣建議啦因為不管是柯總召的A版或是民眾黨的B版我覺得還是尊重一下院長好不好尊重院長的C版萬一你們大家都還有意見民進黨還有意見我們來搞一個D版好不好ABCD的D啦D版是什麼東西我講一下啦D版"},{"start":8405.086,"end":8428.171,"text":"就是剛剛柯總召還有吳士耀幹事長一直唸唸有詞說這個十二月四號或五號或十一號十二號這兩周當中如果排在十一十二號多是民進黨當召委會影響到他們"},{"start":8431.687,"end":8460.633,"text":"那我們現在如果改到四號五號的話對二十四號的院會投票就滿十天可以很順暢的來進行那我們是不是建議啦啊你們真的就在計較說有幾個召委那很簡單嘛國民黨團願意來一個低板嘛啊你們如果是在四號五號這周"},{"start":8463.354,"end":8481.987,"text":"有哪幾個召委國民黨團要跟你們換的也可以嘛來跟你們換嘛讓你們當召委這樣可以的嗎那所有的問題都解決了嘛那所有的問題都解決了嘛你不是堅持你們要排案要審查那我們讓你排案嘛"},{"start":8483.547,"end":8512.5,"text":"暗中牛尼請你啊!對不對?我們就24號來儘快解決不過還是要強調一下柯總召你是執政黨在立法院的大頭目我要特別講今天是不管是考試院的同意權還是司法院的同意權總不會說在野黨比你還急吧"},{"start":8513.598,"end":8527.1,"text":"二十四號就審查完畢．比較好．還是三十一號審查完畢．如果早一點審查完畢．不是好事嗎那剛剛吳思瑤跟蔡依怡兩位委員一直在"},{"start":8528.274,"end":8548.137,"text":"我那個算盤都拿出來在算齁到底那個禮拜是誰當召委誰在召委國民黨幾席民進黨幾席沒有關係那都可以談啦請你啦我們就趕快讓這個投票趕快定下來因為這個是議題已經討兩個小時了執政黨執政黨的格局嘛不要那麼計較嘛好不好謝謝"},{"start":8550.029,"end":8571.229,"text":"好,謝謝心胸寬大的傅坤吉總召,願意割肉餵硬了。好,我們現在柯總召。我不做盧士官啦,什麼心胸寬大的,扁來扁去啦。因為大家都談得很清楚了,我們為什麼一直主張委員會時間不要去用到,這只要總算審查。"},{"start":8572.645,"end":8590.291,"text":"所以這個審查大家都了解民進黨有一個招委是民進黨一個招委是國民黨歷年來國民黨都不排都到十二月快到十二月底前年我還用抽出金惡毒我現在講很嚴肅的事情後來用抽出金惡毒所以我們"},{"start":8597.512,"end":8619.85,"text":"剛才大家都講這個事情然後再翻來再翻A版、B版、C版、D版我是覺得不宜啦民運動都用來講齁在野議席跟在野主席查解一百大關統議前都是一樣的意思沒有提到那種程度這樣大家都會投給啊不可能嘛所以這個事情喔 院長"},{"start":8621.932,"end":8646.134,"text":"你...有能力處理因為...你才就是...大家...他就剛才就講過他...他就講過嘛A版B版他都可以嘛我們就...我們是A版嘛啊既然這樣的話不要再...不要再...回來回去不...那...那就好了啦其實都一樣啦沒什麼差沒有 你現在要...你現在要搞一個EF出來 院長"},{"start":8648.564,"end":8672.174,"text":"一格就是沒有效益我們都很開誠布公在談事情我這邊沒有藏任何東西都故意到各黨立場你現在很奇怪說什麼早一個禮拜或晚一個禮拜這個大灣同意權行使都沒差 都沒差那要怎麼給那是想看看嘛好 謝謝柯總統現在請黃國昌總統要請發言黃國昌總統發言完畢以後我就嘗試做個結論了好請"},{"start":8677.171,"end":8683.846,"text":"其實我覺得我們在討論一些事情的時候我盡量避免把立法院裡面的事情個人化"},{"start":8684.898,"end":8711.097,"text":"因為個人化就不好了就變成好像是在對人不是在對事我前一輪發言的重點是什麼我前一輪發言的重點是說全院委員會召開的時候是不是絕對不能排委員會我在討論的是對事所以我為什麼不談人當初會這樣子運作當初會這樣子運作就已經形成了這樣子的狀態"},{"start":8712.418,"end":8730.235,"text":"那你如果要把這個事擴及到人那話也不能只講一半2016年10月20號的時候那個時候是全院委員會全院委員會那時候也有兩個常設委員會的召委開會"},{"start":8731.84,"end":8759.357,"text":"那兩個常設委員會的專委一位是趙天寧委員一位是游美女委員阿我想是什麼黨籍的就不用講了沒有關係啦大家有各自的資料我在那邊講話對還是不對就查立法院公報就好了嘛但重點我還是要拉回來我們討論事情就討論事情你如果把它變成人的問題就傷感情了那傷感情就破壞了"},{"start":8761.212,"end":8787.826,"text":"院長的一番苦心因為院長在協商的時候我深刻感受到你的苦心希望能夠和諧一點能夠和諧一點大家往下走所以我還是回來台灣民眾黨認為比較好的版本是B版是B版院長"},{"start":8789.278,"end":8814.032,"text":"拿出了C版的條和我們說體諒院長的苦心也可以接受也可以接受那所以如果最後大家都希望院長裁那就請院長準備好的C版就拿出來裁這個C版如果院長裁C版台灣民眾黨是可以同意的"},{"start":8818.682,"end":8841.699,"text":"你那個C版經過討論大家都定掉了東西啊這個事情沒有什麼好爭辯的這是A加B加C最大公務處他們吵了幾禮拜謝謝柯總長那個那個副國務卿總長剛才講的是說如果定下來的話那個召委會期的話國民黨這邊也願意"},{"start":8846.184,"end":8871.387,"text":"也願意在十一號、十二號換召集委員．我知道,我確定一下是這樣,是不是?委員這個案子我們已經談了兩個小時了我想先做兩個小結論一個就是說以後全院委員會委員看召開的時候還是呼籲各常設委員會盡量停止召開,這第一點就呼籲大家停止召開,好不好?第二個就是說"},{"start":8875.261,"end":8900.364,"text":"對,都有舉例嘛,所以我再一次呼籲。第二個就是說,我們下一次朝夕協商的時候,我們納入研會的討論,這個就多了一個緩衝,也讓大家心裡的壓力可以降低一點,因為我們還必要是要研會,研多長,到時候我們再決定。所以這一次針對司法院人事、大法官的人事同意權,我嘗試性的來做一個綜合大家的共同意見,請大家聽聽看。"},{"start":8901.545,"end":8919.23,"text":"如果大家同意,我們就照我所宣告,我們這樣就確定了。那這個,我們在十一月二十六號考試院的時候,十二月二號,我們,一樣我們就十二月十號,"},{"start":8920.72,"end":8947.749,"text":"十一號十二號開全院委員會那國民黨團剛才所跟所承諾出來的那再請副空級總召林思明這個書記長回去後跟蔡宇宇跟吳思耀幹人來協調十二月十號全院委會十一十二月十一號十二號全院委員會我想我們就照這個定下來那剛剛蔡宇宇委員"},{"start":8949.764,"end":8975.54,"text":"書記長所擔心關切的那個召集委的副科技總召跟林世民書記長上會之後跟民進黨團來進行協調當新期當會期的召委由誰來當主席好不好這你們私底下我們現在是目前在院裡面常會協商第二個哩我們就定召C版的就是二十四號進行司法官、大法官人事統一選"},{"start":8976.977,"end":8997.709,"text":"好不好?你自己提出案子你也不堅持這是我提的C版你第一個提出來的是什麼?是12月31號嗎?柯總長我跟你報告我沒有提任何A版B版是上一次會議大家所提的民進黨所提的A版"},{"start":8999.051,"end":9015.516,"text":"臺灣民眾黨所提的B版我現在放在大家手上但是我擔心沒有辦法達成共識所以我今天提出來這個C版純粹是建議我沒有提三十一號表決我先報告這一點跟連五十一號都點頭了就是根據你們上次所提的我講的是A版"},{"start":9016.736,"end":9036.911,"text":"臺灣民眾黨所提的我提出的是A跟B但是我擔心沒有辦法達成共識因為有占到院會時間也有占到委員會時間所以今天我提出來這個C版這裡面的表決時間也是12月24號可能你知道我講話一定是一以貫之請不要誤會我為什麼一定要12月24號把表決全部打通這邏輯是什麼"},{"start":9040.137,"end":9067.183,"text":"因為我們如果十號十一號十二月四號和十二月三十一號這個各種堅持一定要二十四號來出於大法院統一選舉因為這個就是十天的建議七天、二十二月三十一號差在什麼地方其實我們就是照這個表所排的就這樣定下來因為我覺得這個事實上讓你心頭而已啦我...好,休息三分鐘"},{"start":9069.548,"end":9079.972,"text":"我們先把這部分講如果那樣的話你們就召集人當先前副委員長同樣的樣子來那沒有你才溝通嘛"},{"start":9095.037,"end":9123.489,"text":"不要說,因為他們堅持,要不然就寫上去他堅持十二次嗎?他現在堅持二十二次,如果三十二度他就寫上去,等到下一次照意思處理因為他還是覺得寫上破裂了嘛,我們搞了兩個小時,打結論是破裂何苦來猜勒我今天有一個問題,總統提名十二次啊,一定要在那邊表明什麼意思嗎?他就堅持,他沒有把他寫的話講出來"},{"start":9430.851,"end":9432.433,"text":"好,我再,謝謝各位黨團幹部我們已經,這個"},{"start":9438.518,"end":9464.617,"text":"謝謝大家我們大法官人事同意權的時程安排我們討論兩個多小時了我想現在再嘗試做一個結論拜託各位黨黨幹部仔細請聽十二月十號十一號十二號我們全議委員會那十二月二十四號第十四院會上午我們針對司法院同意權案進行記名表投票表決好嗎好謝謝大家我們進入下一案"},{"start":9475.066,"end":9481.281,"text":"好,我們現在進行,好,謝謝,謝謝兩位總召大家,兩位總召謝謝"},{"start":9488.624,"end":9515.452,"text":"謝謝兩位總召兩位總召加起來已經一百三十歲了拜託閉嘴謝謝主席在主持會議謝謝柯總召謝謝黃總召謝謝好我們現在由台灣民眾黨黨團建請院會作成決議成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行"},{"start":9518.393,"end":9539.571,"text":"聽證會請公決案。」相關事宜。．我們歡迎國家發展基金會副主任委員．高副主任委員．高副主委．現在你．現在你．好,謝謝．好,謝謝高副主委．歡迎您．高副主委．好,謝謝．再來第二位國家發展基金管理委員會．副執行秘書．業副執行秘書．歡迎您．請坐"},{"start":9541.018,"end":9557.896,"text":"第三位我們歡迎經濟部產業發展署楊署長歡迎您請坐第四位金融管理監督委員會銀行局周副組長歡迎您第五位政見期貨局陳簡主任秘書陳主任秘書歡迎您好謝謝我們請"},{"start":9570.258,"end":9587.089,"text":"一、我們現在協商本院台灣民眾黨黨團為合理監督國家國發基金使用規劃,確實了解國家產業發展策略與投資評估,以保障納稅人之權益與國家資源,建請院會作成以下決議。"},{"start":9589.113,"end":9604.755,"text":"成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會要求國家發展委員會及行政院國家發展基金管理委員會等有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料"},{"start":9607.854,"end":9625.105,"text":"與必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會．以落實國會監督保障納稅人之權益。」二、本案經一百一三年七月十六日立法院第十一屆第一會期第二十二次院會決議交付黨團協商．並由台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商。三、"},{"start":9630.669,"end":9648.801,"text":"本案經由一百一三年十一月五日由黃國昌總召召集黨團協商因當日協商仍然無法達成共識因此主席才是依立法院相關規定來處理我們先請黃國昌總召台灣民眾黨代表請發言"},{"start":9651.586,"end":9675.253,"text":"這個案子其實相當的單純之前我們就已經依照立法院職權行使法提案但那個時候剛好憲法法庭在做解釋的期間那我們就等憲法法庭的結果出來那憲法法庭的結果出來當然對裡面的結果跟部分的解釋我們感覺到遺憾遺憾歸遺憾那我們就繼續要往下走"},{"start":9676.053,"end":9693.811,"text":"所以就調查委員會的部分就調查委員會的部分跟聽證會舉行的部分那我們就按照現行沒有被我們的憲法法庭宣告違憲的條文就繼續往下走那這個提案其實相對而言就是比較單純"},{"start":9695.137,"end":9714.372,"text":"我們接下來就完全按照有關立法院職權行使法跟憲法法庭最後宣告的結果這調查委員會是可以組成調查委員會可以組成了以後我們該做的事情做至於說其他的來了以後不可以要他提供東西"},{"start":9716.774,"end":9741.216,"text":"說謊我們也沒辦法那也沒有辦法因為我們憲法法題最後的結論是這個樣子但我覺得這個案子我們提案這個有關於國家發展基金相關的過去所發生的一些狀況非常多的人民大家都還是很關心所以我們一本初衷"},{"start":9742.177,"end":9753.665,"text":"也過了協商冷凍期現而法庭的判決也出來了那我們就依照最後的結果這件事情還是要繼續往下走以上先簡要的說明"},{"start":9755.442,"end":9762.667,"text":"好,謝謝黃國昌總召接下來請蔡易瑜書記長請發言好,謝謝主席那針對民眾黨黃總召剛剛的發言那他要針對這個國發基金來做這個調查委員會那基本上我們從"},{"start":9776.597,"end":9801.898,"text":"院會的這個決議他說要求國家發展委員會及行政院國發基金管理會就有關機關就有特定事項涉及事項提供相關調查資料那這個特定是議案特定議案到底是什麼這個我想從這個提案裡面是不清楚的"},{"start":9802.979,"end":9825.831,"text":"那從大法官解釋729號他強調雖然那是調閱委員會可是跟調查委員會基本上他精神是一致的他認為說你要調閱調查委員會的話你必須要目的跟範圍均屬明確之特定議案所以目的跟範圍都要明確"},{"start":9827.254,"end":9852.661,"text":"都要明確而且還會涉及到說是不是有訴訟中是不是已經在偵查中這個就是在憲判之第九號也有處理到這樣的一個提案他對於國發基金好像是國發基金全部的投資都是弊案可是國發基金事實上還是有一些成功的投資因為國發基金也是有賺錢的不能說有賠錢的就是弊案"},{"start":9853.581,"end":9879.357,"text":"有賺錢的就不是弊案。」我覺得這邏輯上這個不對而且如果以大法官釋字729號所接觸的這個精神你的調查你的目的你的範圍必須要先明確然後才有這個特定議案那我們從這樣看起來所列舉的就好多甚至在委員會的時候還有講到了這個凌日攻擊凌日攻擊的話"},{"start":9880.598,"end":9908.645,"text":"也不在這個整個案由裡面可是在介紹的時候還有講到零日公職所以看起來這樣的一個調查委員會就變成包山包海那我這也不符合調查委員會必須屬於特定事項而且這個特定議案必須要明確的一個原則那以上是我的意見謝謝蔡宇宇署長的說明林思敏委員發言然後周安倍委員請準備好不好好謝謝主席"},{"start":9909.565,"end":9919.229,"text":"我想我們本黨是支持成立這個調查委員會就國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職的事項來這個成立調查委員會我想剛才參與書記長"},{"start":9926.092,"end":9943.604,"text":"認為說這個特定議案是指什麼議案其實我們從這個他成立的一個委員會的性質就可以看得出來主要就是針對國家發展基金不當投資及管理失職的相關的一個弊案"},{"start":9944.464,"end":9960.183,"text":"來成立調查委員會。」所以這沒有所謂的這個包山包海的問題只要這個投資的相關的這些公司如果沒有不當投資也沒有管理失職這就不在我們調查委員會調查的範圍"},{"start":9962.305,"end":9987.261,"text":"所以我想這個民進黨的顧慮是多餘的我想我們立法院會依照相關的我們職權行使法我們憲法裁判所規範的相關的一個法律的規定來成立調查委員會也會做出真相的一個調查讓我們民眾來充分了解我們的國發基金的投資案件到底有哪些是有不當"},{"start":9988.142,"end":9994.161,"text":"還有什麼人有失職的地方我想民眾有自的權利所以我們非常支持成立調查委員會以上謝謝"},{"start":9994.994,"end":10024.474,"text":"好謝謝林思明署議長的發言接下來鍾嘉斌委員召委請表達意見好謝謝我想這一次一一三憲判九已經很清楚的對於立法院職權行使法以下簡稱立職法在經歷我們上會期的修法之後已經對於部分條文宣告違憲那其中呢最核心的就是從四十五條開始所謂的調查的權的行使我們先回到憲判九他所說的"},{"start":10025.294,"end":10043.875,"text":"所謂的四十五條之第一項立法院就其憲法職權行使之特定議案有重大關聯之四項且有調查之必要者使得涉調查委員會那所謂的立法院的職權在憲法第六十三條很清楚我們立法院有議決法律案"},{"start":10044.936,"end":10074.356,"text":"預算案以及戒嚴案大赦案宣戰構合條約等等當然還有其他的國家重大事項那麼因為就本案的標題他要成立的是一個國發基金會這是一個明確的基金但是是認為有不當投資及管理失職是認為顯有不當投資或管理失職要去了解他有沒有這個事情我們成立了調查委員會那因為會涉及到特定的案件"},{"start":10075.117,"end":10090.039,"text":"所以要求提供必要的調查資料。」首先我們要看立法院我們的六十二條條文當中所謂的國發基金的不當投資及管理失職是關涉到哪一條法律案哪一項的預算案"},{"start":10090.74,"end":10119.299,"text":"或許如果說是要對於國發基金未來在預算審查當中我們必須就他基金的使用去要求了解那就明確的就我們即將進行的預算審查當中立法院繼續行使憲法第六十二條法定職權審查預算案有必要的話那我們可以很清楚的指明是國發基金過去的哪些預算執行讓我們有必要在未來預算審查的時候進行調查"},{"start":10120.92,"end":10130.514,"text":"接下來我們來回顧一下歷史法的通過跟演變其實我們原來在歷史法修法前我們第八章是文件調閱之處理"},{"start":10136.423,"end":10157.086,"text":"那現在呢我們修改後是第八章是調查權之行使叫調查範圍就不設定是原件調閱這當然是一個就大家來講立法院的調查權是往前進的但是原來呢我們委員會呢是第九章是委員會辦理公委員會公聽會的舉行以至於有現在"},{"start":10158.047,"end":10184.339,"text":"第九十一章聽證會之舉行。」那我們看一看聽證會的九十一章聽證會之舉行它有分成各委員會就指現在立法院的各委員會還有調查委員會根據第八章調查權之行使成立的調查委員會所交付的議案那因此這裡面涉及到的我們剛剛提到了因為這裡面還提到我們的這個主案文當中"},{"start":10185.62,"end":10206.778,"text":"必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一行使聽證會那所以顯然的這有兩個要件第一個先必須根據第八章立法院在行使哪一項憲法六十二條的職權我們有必要去成立一個調查權之行使成立一個調查委員會然後我們才能根據第九之一章聽證會之舉行去進行調查委員會"},{"start":10211.741,"end":10237.616,"text":"為審查院會交付資金案開始進行聽證的。．所以我們希望在這個部分還是要續名如果說沒有辦法指明是基於哪一項預算案的審查或者哪一項立法院職權的行使所必要要成立一個調查委員會我們當然無由的來成立至於如果調查委員會無由成立當然就沒有根據我們新訂的第九十一章"},{"start":10238.957,"end":10250.82,"text":"我們聽證會是舉行第五十九條之一去進行調查委員會為了受理院會交付的議案去進行必要的聽證會以上先做這樣的說明"},{"start":10256.862,"end":10283.613,"text":"暫停一下我們這個不當國家發展基金不當黨團這個討論針對剛才大法官時程的協商草稿現在已經完成我念一下請各位黨團幹部請聽一下如果可以我們就進行簽字立法院黨團協商結論時間一百三點十一月十四日星期日下午兩點地點紅樓二零一會議室決定事項一十二月二日星期一舉行司法院人事同意權"},{"start":10284.813,"end":10304.23,"text":"案的公聽會．由各黨團推薦學者專家代表七位,國民黨團推薦三位,民進黨黨團推薦三位,台灣民眾黨黨團推薦一位,各黨團審查小組委員一一上述的比例推派委員組成,"},{"start":10306.069,"end":10328.703,"text":"名單請於十一月二十六日星期二中午十二點之前送交議事處會診欲時適同放棄二、十二月二日星期二改開全院委員會並於十一日星期三、十二日星期四合併為議事會十二月十號星期二上午審查司法院院長"},{"start":10329.924,"end":10357.122,"text":"被提名人下午審查司法院副院長被提名人十二月十一日星期三及十二日星期四審查大法官被提名人每位被提名人各由七位委員進行詢答由國民黨團推派三位民進黨團推派三位台灣民眾黨黨團推派一位代表進行"},{"start":10359.005,"end":10387.788,"text":"名單請於十二月九號﹐星期一中午十二點前﹐送交議事處會診。欲時視同放棄。尋答順序依例授權議事處辦理。審查完畢之後﹐於十二月二十四日﹐星期二院會上午﹐行使同意權案記名投票表決。三、上述行使同意權案投票時﹐司法院長﹐"},{"start":10389.153,"end":10395.206,"text":"副院長及五位大法官被提名人並為一張同意權票"},{"start":10398.138,"end":10422.594,"text":"四、有關行使司法院長、副院長及五位大法官被提名人同意全案相關事務及時程詳如副表五、各黨團如果有關司法院院長、副院長及大法官被提名人之書面問題請於十月二十八日星期四中午十二點前送至議事處會診"},{"start":10428.759,"end":10439.307,"text":"自被提名人．以立後續審查之進行。」各位黨團幹部請問對於剛才本席所宣讀的草擬協商結論有無寶貴意見?請會議詢問。當然可以。"},{"start":10450.782,"end":10470.356,"text":"可不可以請議事人員幫我們說明一下因為就是已經幾年沒有行使這個你們的第三點是說行使同意權案投票時這個票怎麼印您是說院長副院長及五月大法官並一張同意票那個會是怎麼規劃"},{"start":10471.317,"end":10484.146,"text":"因為我有點在想,這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常好。這問題問得非常好,麻煩請稿長解釋一下,非常"},{"start":10492.745,"end":10511.111,"text":"我想問一下我印象好像是分開吧比如說院長、副院長都分開那為什麼這一次你要併在一起因為我們這一次的那個上一次的考委的案子的協商的時候針對併我一張我們就是考委跟考試委員的考試院院長併我一張所以這一次我們就尋"},{"start":10512.811,"end":10538.1,"text":"最近的這一次協商．看你們有沒有意見要討論一下那考委那一次對不起我沒有注意到因為考委的人數是一張但是過去我覺得回到過去的慣例我印象歷次都是分開印製就算考委的那個協商那個大家因為是方便投票嘛大家也是可以調整重點是第一個回到慣例第二個大家方便清楚在行使的過程當中"},{"start":10540.253,"end":10558.147,"text":"考位已經簽了就是併為一張那另外就是說我們實際上在進行這一個唱票的時候因為過去是不記名分開是還時間上還容許如果說這一次變記名的話又分開的話時間可能會比較拉長這個是背後的考慮那"},{"start":10560.543,"end":10582.557,"text":"就考試委員、考試院長是併為一張那看大法官大家的意見怎樣我們沒有特定的立場我們一定尊重各黨團幹部因為考試院院長、副院長、考試委員是併在一張我們大家都簽字同意了現在如果司法院是比照考試委員除非大家變成考試院跟司法院將來投名的票不一樣這個要大家請一併考量對、禁名的"},{"start":10587.315,"end":10596.461,"text":"好,所以就是確認一下,因為要明確認一下。好,謝謝施堯幹事長的問題,問得非常好。那個柯總裁有寶貴,請柯總裁,請。今天考試委員提名的時候,上次我們聽曹偉強那一張嘛,有關於這個書門問題的提問的問題齁,那就"},{"start":10613.84,"end":10633.947,"text":"到底要不要問到個人問題他要不要回答我們就尊重他因為到最後還是要執行的時候可以問所以這個不構成以後非難的理由好不好謝謝柯總召的叮嚀那現在各位黨團幹部我先簽字簽字完畢麻煩各黨團幹部簽字好嗎非常感謝我們一個案子一個案來齁"},{"start":10643.11,"end":10647.333,"text":"接下來我們繼續進行民眾黨團國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會 接下來請黃國昌總召請發言"},{"start":10660.905,"end":10672.522,"text":"有否尊重行政部門讓他們先講講話還是我們要繼續下去我想聽一下行政部門的意見是一個非常好的建議好我們現在聽一下麻煩一下國家發展委員會高副主委請發言好"},{"start":10674.81,"end":10695.019,"text":"院長還有這個各位委員我想大家都知道國發基金是因為產創的條例的成立的所以我們主要就在扶植一些新創的產業所以那些新創的產業這個創新的這些產業可能都需要創新轉型所以我們當初投資的時候呢我們在投資的過程都按照三個階段"},{"start":10695.939,"end":10713.41,"text":"也就是說要政策評估審議、投資評估審議還有委員會然後我們在所謂的這個基金管理裡面我們都依據公司法跟相關的法令來辦理所以不管是投資的過程或者是我們管理的過程裡面其實我們都按照既定的法令來做"},{"start":10714.991,"end":10738.633,"text":"那大家都知道因為我們是一個策略性的基金所以我們投資不一定都會一定會有某些基金某些公司是虧損的那當然我們總的獲利其實是還是蠻驚人的那我想今天這個成立的委員會他的名稱叫做不當投資跟管理失職調查委員會我的意思就是說虧損並不代表"},{"start":10740.515,"end":10766.733,"text":"他是不當的投資跟管理的失職所以我是覺得委員會的名稱上面的定義好像就未審先判因為就已經認定好像感覺上有某些虧損的公司基本上就是一些不當的投資跟管理的失職所以我想我這一點我覺得要先釐清那以上說明謝謝高副主委接下來我們黨團幹部哪一位要發言請吳思瑤幹事長請發言"},{"start":10775.011,"end":10789.837,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我想剛剛本黨的委員蔡易宇也好或是鍾嘉斌、張偉也好都針對這一次的憲判結束之後那對於整個調查權在院會層級可以行使院會層級的調查委員會"},{"start":10790.937,"end":10812.584,"text":"委員會．那相關的依據憲判之後．事上立法院要做的當務之急．是應當去檢視有關於立法院職權行使法．第八章的調查權之行使．乃至於後續的聽證的部分．應當先就事法性來做一個全盤．是不是要修法的這個思維．因為未來"},{"start":10813.644,"end":10830.745,"text":"在成立調查的過程當中以現在大法官會告訴我們的是哪些條文違憲但大法官沒有告訴我們哪些條文怎麼修後續大法官宣告違憲之後要修法就是立法院的工作"},{"start":10831.366,"end":10854.492,"text":"所以現在要啟動院會層級的調查委員會坦白講依現在的立法院職權行使法就變成是一部相對我這樣形容不曉得合不合理合宜但事實上我看來它就是一個拼裝車所以我們要用一個更負責任的方式針對立法院職權行使法第八章調查選制行使做一個全面的條文檢視讓它成為一個合宜的法制"},{"start":10858.413,"end":10872.82,"text":"然後來進行後續的調查委員會的行使。」這個是立法院現在要做的第一件事情那第二件事情呢回到民眾黨所提的這樣的一個議案那要成立院會層級的調查委員會你的主體性"},{"start":10876.301,"end":10901.393,"text":"就以這個案子寫的是國發基金的不當投資我想剛剛我們這個國發會的副主委也說明了那我要進一步再來確認一下就是說你行使調查權是為了輔助你不管是審預算或審法案它是一個輔助性的權利所以你要很聚焦你認為國發基金的不當投資是哪些案子"},{"start":10902.287,"end":10921.97,"text":"那我為了準備這樣的一個我試圖去了解民眾黨提案的內容所以我去看了國發基金我手上拿的是一百一十三年第二季的季報那第二季的季報就是最新的季報我們可以看到國發基金投資非常多"},{"start":10923.393,"end":10942.02,"text":"重要新興事業的投資有七十二件我手上厚厚一本七十二件的重要新興事業的投資第二大類是專案投資專案投資裡頭又分為加強投資中小企業實施方案就有兩百八十五案"},{"start":10942.78,"end":10958.467,"text":"用例如加強投資文創產業實施方案也是上百案我還沒有來得及把它統整出來數字第三類的專案投資是加強投資策略性服務業的實施方案也是上百案"},{"start":10959.167,"end":10976.698,"text":"以及第四大類的專案投資就是加強投資策略性製造業的實施方案所以國發基金投入專案投資就有中小企業、文化創意產業、策略性的服務業跟策略性的製造業這是第二大類加起來是上千案"},{"start":10977.779,"end":10998.351,"text":"第三類國發基金的投資就是創業投資事業方案這個大家比較熟悉創業投資的事業投資有六十三案第四大項目國發基金投資了創業天使投資方案這個我們在爭取新創我們都非常支持所以國發基金投入天使方案有兩百二十二案"},{"start":10999.472,"end":11017,"text":"最後一類是就是在疫情期間對於新創事業的影響國發基金也給予了國家的預算來協助他們整形所以我整個把現在國發基金的第二季的季報全部加起來就是上千案的投資"},{"start":11018.34,"end":11042.95,"text":"那我不曉得民眾黨的委員針對他們想要調閱的這個主題國發基金的不當投資的定義是什麼就如剛剛副主委說的如果把虧損就列為不當的投資那這樣是不正確的理解譬如說天使投資我們幫助新創這些start up他第一階段他不可能現在就"},{"start":11043.59,"end":11069.035,"text":"就盈餘嗎?我們是要在創業的第一階段給他們第一桶金所以到底他的定義的不當投資是什麼?或者是民眾黨的提案也可以針對我的提問上千案的投資那請問民眾黨建指的又是哪一案或是哪幾案?否則這麼大的一個範圍就很只是寫到國發基金的不當投資幾千案這個調閱委員會"},{"start":11073.536,"end":11095.256,"text":"怎麼處理所以對一個主題性的明確要非常的需要被確立否則可能立法院的調查委員會在相對法律還沒有修得更周全的狀況之下就去啟動那會不會去影響了這數千案裡面光調閱就很難"},{"start":11096.377,"end":11116.289,"text":"所以我想要再更清楚的去釐清那如果是以我手上拿的就是這個討論事項當初院會交付下來的確實有寫到幾個案子的名稱難道就是聚焦這幾案嗎那這幾案當中還不乏是已經被檢調調查中的"},{"start":11118.03,"end":11140.222,"text":"也有包括被監察院調查中的那如果一、立法院職權行使法以及憲判還包括過去的五八五號七二九號都告訴我們對於偵查中的案件立法院的調查權是不能夠去介入的所以我做了花了一些時間做這些說明是我的提問跟我的不理解究竟民眾黨團對於國發基金的投資標的"},{"start":11145.526,"end":11168.657,"text":"到底哪些是他們想要行使調查權的範圍那這些範圍是扣合著作為調查權是立法委員的輔助權利您是要有利於對於您行使審查預算或是審查法案的必要性的輔助這些前提都沒有確立所以有必要請這個提案的"},{"start":11170.217,"end":11190.705,"text":"黨團再釐清否則這個調查委員會成立之後很難運作那我講回原來的根源現在立法院該做的事情是針對現判之後的配套修法立法院職權行使法調查權的專章要好好來修謝謝吳斯亞幹事長接下來請台灣民眾黨提案的黃國昌總召請說明"},{"start":11192.27,"end":11217.133,"text":"其實我們當初在7月10號的時候我們提案成立這一個調查委員會我剛已經說明過了後來香港法庭做它的判決出來對它的結論我們覺得遺憾有很多東西我們未必那麼認同但是結果出來就是結果出來"},{"start":11218.274,"end":11230.065,"text":"我們在公開的場合可以批判有各式各樣不同的評論我們都尊重今天在這邊我也不是要在這邊重新的再去論述一次每個人有每個人的立場"},{"start":11231.704,"end":11259.815,"text":"我們現在繼續往下走就調查委員會的組成以及連接聽證會的行事被現場法庭認為是違憲的部分比如說不可以邀一般的人愛來不來沒關係說謊也沒關係這個反正現場法庭我們同意不同意就是按照它的遊戲規則我們繼續把它往下走"},{"start":11261.072,"end":11283.159,"text":"那第二個部分剛剛有委員淳勳淳勳說我們在今年七月十號的時候我們提這個案子到底是要什麼行使什麼樣輔助性的權利跟哪一個議案把它綁在一起那我就比較詳比較詳實的跟大家做說明"},{"start":11287.322,"end":11301.688,"text":"過去這幾年國發基金現實上面的投資要創新產業轉型我們都同意沒有意見但問題是什麼"},{"start":11302.648,"end":11324.805,"text":"但問題是我們的國發基金甚至連執政黨的立委都在質疑它甚至成為紓困基金我為什麼說它甚至成為紓困基金譬如說我們為什麼在提案前面舉例子的時候會去舉到有關於像聯合再生的案子聯合再生剛開始投的時候"},{"start":11326.496,"end":11344.854,"text":"民進黨的立委就質疑三家公司已經虧損到虧了一屁股一百多億在投錢下去是在紓困嗎?太陽能面板這個東西老實講某個程度上我這樣講或許有點不好意思"},{"start":11345.95,"end":11371.532,"text":"但是了解產業人都知道在台灣已經成為夕陽產業了根本沒有競爭力所以對於這個投資的決定本身對這個投資的決定本身事實上是有很多人提出質疑的我如果把時間的脈絡再拉長一點時間的脈絡再拉長一點甚至像目前我們現任總統府的秘書長潘孟安"},{"start":11372.728,"end":11381.485,"text":"他當初在處理有關於國發基金的議案的時候他是反對用什麼管理辦法去管國發基金"},{"start":11383.123,"end":11408.464,"text":"那個時候潘孟安秘書長是立委他針之著見痛罵國發基金成為紓困基金所以他說應該要用一個管理條例來處理有關於國發基金投資的事宜回到這裡來講當我們的國發基金成為有特殊關係的人"},{"start":11409.591,"end":11424.648,"text":"可以引進國發基金去投成為紓困基金所以他成為紓困基金當初民進黨立委所提出來的質疑真的是有先知著見因為那個時候在財政委員會那個時候我人也在財政委員會"},{"start":11426.089,"end":11443.241,"text":"民進黨立委提出質疑的時候那個時候國發會的副主委是拍胸脯保證說沒有問題啊這個投下去相信很快就轉虧為盈了在立法院公報上面白紙黑字記載的都非常的清楚好"},{"start":11444.142,"end":11472.951,"text":"那等到我們現在2024年的今天再回顧這段歷史從我們國發基金投進去以後聯合再生現在虧了多少錢啊又虧了一百多億又虧了一百多億代表當初在質疑的人人家質疑的有沒有道理非常有道理那不僅僅是什麼是不是虧損這件事情啊質疑的有道理啊甚至是"},{"start":11474.13,"end":11501.809,"text":"我們當初投錢下去讓聯合再生成為所謂的綠能國家隊綠能國家隊我們綠能國家隊的表現是什麼表現到不是我說的喔是現任的國發會主委說的現任的國發會主委在我公開質詢的時候承認了對於這個聯合再生投了以後實際上面的表現"},{"start":11504.374,"end":11527.162,"text":"連國發會的主委自己都搖頭在立法院公開說我們準備要退場了準備要退場了就這家公司不能再搞下去對這家公司公司的治理他自己都沒辦法認同甚至包括什麼甚至包括可惡到我們自己的綠能國家隊在我們的軍事要塞裡面"},{"start":11529.268,"end":11552.41,"text":"裝中國製老共匪諜不是匪諜共匪他們做的有關於光電通訊的產品這個事情是誰幹的是我們國發基金是第一大股東的公司幹出來的事情甚至包括了什麼甚至包括在張彬工業區那邊違法的套利"},{"start":11554.601,"end":11566.532,"text":"連監察院都糾正監察院並不是在調查當中監察院已經調查完了他就做出了糾正胡搞瞎搞他不是在調查中他已經調查完了胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":11567.714,"end":11584.212,"text":"所以被糾正但我們的監察院面對這麼嚴重的案子他也是舉得很高然後輕輕拍一下說你這個不對喔你當初在整個投標招標的過程當中出現了很嚴重讓國家整個錢短掃轉賣拿去套利"},{"start":11588.871,"end":11612.353,"text":"那這一些這一些會直接的扣合到什麼會直接的扣合到剛剛也有民進黨的委員說好啊那你講了這麼多你講了這麼多那你扣合的是說我們現在就有關於調查權行使的部分調查權行使的部分要扣合什麼要扣合特定的議案嗎"},{"start":11613.254,"end":11622.401,"text":"所以剛剛有委員垂詢說那扣核的議案到底是什麼那我們先姑且不論先姑且不論現在在處理的預算案因為"},{"start":11623.783,"end":11652.573,"text":"我在提7月10號我在提要成立調查委員會之前之前我已經提了一個特定的議案那個特定的議案其實跟我要成立調查委員的目的是緊密的扣合在一起我為什麼說緊密的扣合在一起我跟大家報告一下我在後來的時候我們就成立了什麼不好意思我把那個紙拿出來"},{"start":11656.469,"end":11681.805,"text":"我在7月3號的時候成立這個調查委員會提案之前我已經提了產業創新條例第30條的法律案那產業創新條例第30條的這個法律的特定議案我在處理的是什麼議題我跟大家報告一下我在處理的事情是說國家發展基金的運用不可以"},{"start":11683.24,"end":11693.408,"text":"用於下列的情況第一款的狀況不可以用於企業虧損的紓困那國發基金不可以拿來當作企業虧損的紓困"},{"start":11695.732,"end":11712.555,"text":"這個是早期民進黨在針對國發基金進行監督的時候我從早期裡面的立法院的公報意思錄很清楚的看到我們的前立法委員潘孟安大聲疾呼國發基金不可以成為紓困基金"},{"start":11713.416,"end":11737.507,"text":"他那時候強度是拉到說應該用法律來明定整個國發基金的管理而不是說讓行政部門透過辦法的方式就來管理這算是有先知佐見你不可以把它拿來當作你可以說產業要創新要發展這大家都OK但你不可以把它拿來紓困那第二個投資主要生產活動"},{"start":11738.467,"end":11752.511,"text":"位於中國大陸的企業為什麼我會反對國發基金投資主要生產活動用於中國大陸的企業我們國發基金應該是要扶植我們本土的產業能夠升級、能夠轉型"},{"start":11755.233,"end":11778.871,"text":"那國發基金怎麼會去投一個夕陽產業而且那個夕陽產業竟然主要的生產活動在中國大陸然後把台灣人的錢台灣納稅的錢台灣資本市場所拿到的錢全部丟到中國大陸那邊去讓不肖的商人在那邊胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":11779.895,"end":11801.883,"text":"那當我這樣提的時候有人可能會質疑啊那你就所何止我們國發基金什麼時候幹過這種事啊有啊我們的國發基金幹這種事情最有名的案子就是盧興啊盧興的那個案子啊那個時候決定要投資之前已經釀成了資本市場的大笑話表面上是我們國發基金進場去併購中國的酒地"},{"start":11806.365,"end":11832.311,"text":"但是所有資本市場都看得出來啊那個叫做逆併購啊表面上是我們去併購人家實際上是被人家吞了啊所以盧興的營運總部是設在台北啊但台北有幾個人?國發基金投的錢在資本市場因為國發基金進場一般的投資大眾進去的錢全部都跑去哪裡了?全部都跑去中國大陸"},{"start":11833.706,"end":11848.217,"text":"全部都跑去中國大陸胡搞瞎搞搞到現在如新的狀況是什麼如新的狀況是我們當初我們國發基金帶著大家進場搞到現在錢在那邊被胡搞瞎搞完吶"},{"start":11849.773,"end":11873.192,"text":"我不好意思說股票成為幣值啊受害的恐怕不是只有我們的國發基金啊受害的是有很多投資人啊欲哭無淚啊當初是投著國發基金進場所以剛剛有委員在問說我們綁的特定的議案是什麼當我們說產創條例應該要做這樣子做修正的時候我綁的是這個法律案嘛"},{"start":11873.929,"end":11902.199,"text":"至於說在這個法律案裡面是不是有具體的情況符合這個法律案應該考慮的排除的消極要件排除的消極要件那這個調查委員會成立了以後我們的調查委員會可以按照這個議案的目的的範圍必要性的部分來進行調閱嘛那我想到這邊啊不好意思占用了比較長的時間但是因為有委員問那我還是要簡單的說明一下"},{"start":11903.8,"end":11927.717,"text":"好,謝謝台灣民眾黨黃國昌總召的發言各位委員請從我嘗試性的來宣讀一下因為剛剛各黨團都已經表達過意見了我知道各黨團幹部表達過意見了那總教練委員你也講過啦我知道那邊都有啦徐議政委員來了沈博洋委員都到了越來越多那我現在想想看三個黨團都已經發言過因為後面"},{"start":11928.678,"end":11955.339,"text":"包括內政部長、劉部長都已經等了一天半了還在隔壁所以我們先把這個議案我先嘗試性的念念看大家有沒有意見那我也歡迎我們沈柏洋委員還有洪森翰委員是吧洪森翰委員還有徐宇貞委員現在都來都要發言我想稍微等一下好不好我嘗試性那我們本月是否成立國發基金調查委員會已經超過了冷凍期這一點是第一點"},{"start":11957.123,"end":11983.53,"text":"現在各黨團聽大家發言的內容似乎無法達成共識。這是第二個。我們是不是就保留院會來處理?沒關係,你們等一下可以修正沒人。第三,我這邊會有一個協商的草案,我來念一遍,大家來指導一下,聽聽看。如果大家都認同,我們就簽字。如果大家不認同的話,我們就等下一次了,好不好?"},{"start":11985.509,"end":12014.245,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論113年11月14日星期日下午2點我們協商的主題嚴商台灣民眾黨黨團建請院會作成決議．成立國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會．就特定議案涉及事項提供相關調查資料．於必要時依立法院職權行使法第五十九條之一舉行聽證會．請公決案。相關事宜。"},{"start":12015.523,"end":12041.572,"text":"我們協商結論只有兩點一、本案就保留送院會處理二、院會處理進行的時候由各黨團推派一位一、台灣民眾黨黨團、民進黨黨團、國民黨黨團順序輪流發言每人發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢之後即一提出先後進行各黨團版本的處理各位"},{"start":12042.852,"end":12046.235,"text":"黨團幹部跟各位委員,如果針對我這個協商節目有意見,請大家發言。沒有問題,吳淳淳他們在,沒有問題。好,謝謝,不要急。你們現在因為發言完,徐議政委你要不要發言?因為這是輪流的,沒有齁?"},{"start":12068.325,"end":12071.588,"text":"我盡量縮短我的發言雖然剛剛有很多其實我覺得不太合理的地方但是因為我覺得重點是我們有沒有一個協商的結論"},{"start":12085.579,"end":12102.828,"text":"所以我回到剛剛司法幹事長講的地方就是說因為立法院職權行使法有被宣告違憲有很多條文被宣告違憲但因為大法官他沒有處理條文之間的矛盾我舉幾個小例子就好譬如說利益迴避的問題五三之五那邊有定後面就沒定了"},{"start":12103.508,"end":12131.607,"text":"那其實調查委員會一定有利益迴避的問題再來還有其中報告有一些條文有其中報告有一些條文沒有這也很矛盾最矛盾的地方是因為大法官只處理違憲他沒有處理告知義務那因為我們在成立調查委員會叫人來問話的時候一定要告訴他講說你什麼時候可以拒絕證言你這個東西你可以不要講等等之類的那一個告知的程序當時漏定他沒有定在上面那沒有定在上面的話就會變成說我們這個調查委員會在執行的時候會有太多缺漏"},{"start":12132.467,"end":12149.214,"text":"但是我們有一位認為說因為其實各黨他要去做什麼調查但是他們要發起我覺得自由啦但是是不是可以講說我們趕快先把立法院職權行使法這一些漏洞因為我剛剛講這幾個漏洞趕快先修修補了之後再來好好的成立這個相關的調查嗎"},{"start":12150.054,"end":12170.335,"text":"我覺得這個聽起來應該會比較合理才對所以這是針對這一件事情的建議那回到那我就快速回到剛剛國昌委員提到的這幾個問題就是說因為畢竟調查是需要範圍的那因為按照他本來這樣寫那個範圍有點大那他剛剛有說他因為按照大法官這次的解釋他是說相關議案而且跟立法院委員的職權有關"},{"start":12171.776,"end":12196.141,"text":"那相關議案他已經提出了．他說是用法律案．他不是說用預算案但是如果是用法律案的話．會有幾個疑點．他剛剛那個叫產業創新什麼條例．對不對對就是什麼相關的條例產創條例如果說．我是為了產創條例的範圍．要怎麼執行．然後我要來做調查的話．這個不需要做調查．這行政機關做就好了．這跟我們立法委員是要把抽象的法例出來"},{"start":12196.781,"end":12216.393,"text":"至於那個範圍那個只要是有抽象的法規範就好這其實不需要用調查委員會來決定所以我覺得這個理由好像有點不太充分第二個就是他說這一個用這個要調查說什麼有這個到底是不是紓困然後紓困跟這一個虧損到底差別在哪裡其實我剛剛這樣聽下來我覺得黃國昌委員已經調查完了"},{"start":12219.298,"end":12239.699,"text":"就是剛剛講的比如說逆變器其實我覺得那個逆變器的調查很好就是說你有發現有中國製的這個逆變器在那邊這個是他連質詢都沒有質詢他就調查完了那他為什麼有如此神通廣大的能力是我不知道但總之他有這個能力嘛所以呢如果我今天逆變器他已經調查完了他也質詢了然後他說誰誰誰關係深厚他那個連連看已經畫完了"},{"start":12242.932,"end":12261.231,"text":"那他關係事後他也講完了然後針對這個潘孟安這個秘書長之前講的要用條例不用辦法這個也不是調查的範圍啊那如果按照他剛剛講完之後他其實不是有定見而已他調查結束了那調查結束了那突然要成立一個調查委員會那個理由就不夠充分嘛"},{"start":12261.972,"end":12290.807,"text":"但是我覺得這是各黨的自由啦只是說回應他剛剛講的這一個地方其實我覺得這個調查委員會沒有必要成立但如果真的要成立的話趕快把立法院職權行使法因為大法官都剛剛出爐嘛其實也沒有說很久以前的事趕快把相關的那些矛盾的規定先全部把它梳理完之後那按照剛剛國常委員的講法他有提到說他其實只是按照五十九條之一的這幾款就可以直接做了其實沒有就像我剛剛提的那幾個程序的規定那個幾個矛盾都還沒有被解決所以以上簡單的意見"},{"start":12292.089,"end":12320.715,"text":"謝謝沈某洋委員發言黃鴻威首席副長請發言吳思耀幹事長請準備好謝謝那個院長院長我想齁前面我還是講一下我們的這個會議的程序喔那我們剛剛講就是說這個是黨團協商齁應該是由幹部來發言那當然我們有些法案的部分或有些程序的部分譬如說剛才中招兵對中嘉賓委員來發言因為他是司法法制委員會的召委"},{"start":12321.615,"end":12348.018,"text":"根據這個有關於我們立法院職權行使法尤其在釋憲之後有沒有沒有不夠完備的地方我覺得就是說所以我尊重他的發言但是老實說我覺得今天如果民進黨在三長之外或者是相關的委員會或者提案委員或召委之外派出一大堆人都可以做發言的話那"},{"start":12349.259,"end":12352.261,"text":"院長你主持這個協商真的是會越來越苦啦所以我想因為院長人很好也非常尊重各委員到這個協商裡面來就是也尊重大家的發言但是我覺得我們的這些相關的會議的程序遊戲規則還是最好要遵守啦"},{"start":12370.712,"end":12374.855,"text":"因為如果是這樣的話我們到時候各黨派大家都用人海戰術的話那我們這邊的這個協商會沒完沒了我們其實你看前面都已經花費很多時間好那回到就是有關於這個我們要不要成立調查委員會我想第一個就這個我們的因為完成釋憲之後我們在院會本來就可以成立調查委員會"},{"start":12399.329,"end":12403.551,"text":"也就是說雖然在這次釋憲裡面我們雖然不滿意但是我們也願意接受那這樣的已經限縮了國會相關的調查權力我們現在連委員會都不能成立調查小組所以很多人都在質疑其實我們都還不如地方議會"},{"start":12422.057,"end":12424.718,"text":"例如講包含民進黨他們津津樂道的所謂的金華城相關的案子這也是台北市議會的他們在委員會裡面成立的調查小組所以我們現在委員會已經不能成立調查小組而經過釋憲之後我們在院會可以成立調查委員會如果"},{"start":12444.884,"end":12468.64,"text":"今天我們都還不能成立的話那今天請問一下我們立法院到底要自我綁手綁腳到什麼樣的程度這是其一好第二就是有關於國發基金他的投資相關的有沒有涉及到不當投資或者甚至涉及到相關的有沒有弊端的問題"},{"start":12470.441,"end":12493.516,"text":"該不該做調查委員會更詳細的了解跟知道讓民眾有知的權利我們只要走出立法院你們到業界去走一圈我們國發基金這幾年的不當投資剛才我也聽到你剛才應該是是副主委是不是說不能說虧損就是有什麼不當"},{"start":12498.305,"end":12505.27,"text":"可是如果今天我們相關的新興的事業投資60幾家有半數都在虧損有半數都在虧損請問這叫不叫做不當在我的定義裡面半數都在虧損那當然是不當啊所以這是其一另外也就是說我們現在在討論"},{"start":12526.432,"end":12554.261,"text":"國發基金這幾年採雷採的確實非常非常多比如剛才黃國昌總召所提到的我不再贅述可是確實在我們的投資的過程裏面投資的公司不但發生虧損我們現在也準備撤資之前的聯合再生或者如新我們現在還有面臨一個GogoroGogoro馬上就要在美國下市了"},{"start":12555.001,"end":12573.801,"text":"所以今天外界一直在質疑的是為什麼國發基金採雷採的那麼多如果我們覺得我們都可以不用調查不用給所有納稅人一個解釋或者讓立法委員能夠了解"},{"start":12574.921,"end":12580.468,"text":"我不懂欸就是如果這樣子我們都還覺得國家基金OK啊沒有什麼問題啊沒有什麼不當啊我覺得有人有臉講我是沒有臉出去這樣講啊所以我覺得今天成立這個調查委員會"},{"start":12595.663,"end":12613.055,"text":"也就是說如果國發基金自己自願自己沒有不當投資投資都很棒有虧損都是別人的問題不是自己的問題你怕什麼調查呢越調查越清楚不是嗎所以在這個部分要特別要跟大家來報告"},{"start":12614.346,"end":12636.528,"text":"還有另外可能也有委員會說國家發展基金沒有問題啊他每年都有很多的獲利啊沒有錯喔他每年獲利都在兩百億元以上喔他的獲利非常多唷但是我告訴大家國家發展基金到現在都吃老本因為大家都知道國家發展基金過去在最好的投資就是台積電了"},{"start":12637.864,"end":12649.893,"text":"但是因為還好我們當時國發基金沒有出脫台積電的持股跟大家報告每一年國發基金來自於台積電的股力的貢獻超過兩百六十億"},{"start":12654.232,"end":12661.339,"text":"超過兩百六十億所以如果你今天看到說他非常好啊有什麼問題呢賺那麼多錢你們還有什麼問題呢那我要告訴大家幾乎都來自於台積電鼓勵的貢獻所以基於以上尤其這幾年有關於國發基金踩雷外界有很多很多的質疑"},{"start":12679.42,"end":12699.206,"text":"所以我覺得在已經經過釋憲之後然後我們立法院很負責任的在我們也尊重大法官最後釋憲的結果嘛我們不滿意我們也願意接受啊如果這樣還不能成立我覺得這樣子我們真的對不起納稅人這麼多的錢"},{"start":12704.524,"end":12708.866,"text":"還有,我覺得也會讓外界有更多的質疑。以上,謝謝。"},{"start":12726.937,"end":12749.647,"text":"好謝謝院長我想針對這個協商結論我們當然覺得沒有辦法同意為什麼呢因為這樣一個包山包海的提案然後主體範圍不明確而且是架構在一個釋憲之後立法院職權行使法需要好好來研修的這些前提之下"},{"start":12750.367,"end":12770.898,"text":"此時此刻來成立的調查委員會我覺得這是大有問題我們同意立法委員擁有調查權這也大法官也都沒有否認啊從誓字五八五號七二九號到現在這一次的一一三年限判九都肯認立法委員的調查權利只是立法委員的調查權利"},{"start":12772.259,"end":12784.537,"text":"他是一個輔助性﹐是一個手段性的權利﹐他不是一個目的性的權利也就是我們在憲法法庭上﹐這個大法官問得非常清楚查弊案是立法委員的核心權利嗎?"},{"start":12786.71,"end":12815.219,"text":"黃兆元大法官也問了黃國昌委員立法院查閉你是否定五八五號這是蔡中正大法官說的是否定四字五八五號嗎所以說我也不知道黃總召我們在討論他的案子好像黃總召離開了有點可惜所以說這樣一個協商結論當然沒有辦法處理而我認為現在的對話都很有意義因為我們主張要把法律修好"},{"start":12816.345,"end":12830.392,"text":"把立法院職權行使法前後有矛盾的地方把它做一個完備的研議之後再來行使調查權會讓我們的調查更有利會讓立法院的調查更有依據"},{"start":12831.733,"end":12851.763,"text":"而不會去招致前後條文不一自我矛盾至愛難行的限制。」所以要把法修好依據到法官的視線結果來修這是一個重要的事第二個呢我也回應一下剛剛這個宏威委員離開一下想正因為這是全院委員會的"},{"start":12853.624,"end":12880.703,"text":"調查委員會．所以全院委員會．院會．對不起．院會層級的調查委員會．會試射我們一百一十三位立委．所以我認為沈博洋委員來這裡發言．何錯之有．因為這是院會層級的調查委員會．我希望不要限制委員來參與這個珍貴的調查委員會．如果要成立的話的討論．第三大部分．到底國發基金的投資有沒有踩雷．"},{"start":12882.344,"end":12890.932,"text":"有沒有踩雷?數字會說話!以蔡英文總統上任到現在民進黨執政的105年到112年國發基金的總體獲益是1660億元"},{"start":12898.211,"end":12915.121,"text":"如果要比較的話．比起馬英九執政的八年．獲益只有四百七十一億．民進黨執政下的國發基金．大幅增加獲益是一千一百八十九億．成長了比馬英九執政時期成長了三點五倍"},{"start":12916.641,"end":12936.611,"text":"這樣子的一個投資績效怎麼立法院就把它扣上踩雷是不當投資只要投資了幾間是虧損的公司我們剛剛已經說了虧損沒有投資一定贏啦全世界沒那個投資一定贏啦國家的責任就是要扶植我們必要扶植的產業嘛"},{"start":12937.851,"end":12959.591,"text":"所以我也希望能夠導正這個國發基金就是踩雷所以我們要查要查我覺得可以查但是那個範圍要明確定義要清晰最後呢剛剛黃國昌總召說他的行使這個調查委員會調查權的行使他是輔助他要去修正產業創新條例三十條"},{"start":12962.622,"end":12989.577,"text":"他是要去修法所以需要成立調查委員會來協助他修法那我們就來看看他修的這個法他提出來的產創條例三十條的修法是要增加最後一項第二項就是黃國昌民眾黨的修法條文就是有關國家發展基金之運用不得用於下列情形一、企業虧損之紓困"},{"start":12991.098,"end":13007.532,"text":"二、投資主要生產活動位於中國大陸之企業三、投資過去三年內違反環保、勞工或食安衛生相關法律且情節重大之企業如果是為了這一個條文的修法我們在經濟委員會好好來討論立法委員很快可以達到共識"},{"start":13012.416,"end":13036.469,"text":"為了這樣一個修法單一條文的單一相次是不應當無限擴大到要成立一個立法院層級的調查委員會來去查他認為他現在還講不清楚要查哪幾間虧損的企業所以這是一個不對等權利的使用也是一個過當的權利的使用所以就法律"},{"start":13037.729,"end":13065.621,"text":"論法律．這個調查委員會．對於他修產算條例三十條．來成立這個調查委員會．合理嗎．他不合理．第二個．把立法院職權行使法修好．讓立法院未來．可以啟動的調查委員會．更強而有力．更有法律的support．更有清楚的遊戲規則．這是民進黨的主張．有任何該調查的事情．絕對不迴避．但是立法院現在要用一套．"},{"start":13067.267,"end":13088.328,"text":"真的是拼裝車的資權行使法裡面的調查權的專章行使我都認為那只會自我限縮我們的權利所以這樣子的我真的要奉勸一下院長您的這樣的協商結論講白話翻白翻譯一下就是你要讓這個案子去院會表決嗎"},{"start":13090.037,"end":13116.795,"text":"那你剛剛的結論恐怕就是這樣嘛所以說我花了這麼久在跟院長跟大家做意見的交流院長也點頭如搗蒜啊所以針對一個產創條例三十條的單一項字的修法要去成立全院調查委員會範圍這麼大到現在還講不清楚要調查的是哪一間不當投資的公司"},{"start":13120.237,"end":13146.786,"text":"加回憲也加沒合理所以我一定要嚴重表達我們的立場。」好,謝謝吳世耀幹事長表達非常清楚我們能達成共識就有達成共識如果不能達成共識就不能達成共識了在黨我們會有我們的處理方式接下來吳春城幹事長請發言結束之後我要做幾個討論,請我升官了升官了吳春城副總召有主觀佳績"},{"start":13149.383,"end":13178.701,"text":"沒有佳績我還是代表民眾黨發言國發基金作用巨資管理鬆散、績效不彰外界傳言很多追求利益人士所寄諭的方便之門這外界的傳言很多我覺得國人很想了解"},{"start":13179.361,"end":13204.855,"text":"立法院是一個民意機關那個民進黨的委員也是民意代表應該讓大家不要大家很希望掀開這個蓋子這個神秘的蓋子讓國人有自的權利所以不要一直去擋一直去蓋包括我們也沒有說定罪所有的東西都是無罪推定但是透過這個國會調查委員會的運作"},{"start":13209.477,"end":13237.996,"text":"聽證的程序讓他更加的明白讓我們的國人能夠了解國家的產業發展的策略還有這些投資評估的情況來保障納稅人的權益跟國家的資源所以我覺得這個是一件應該要做的事情所以非常贊成院長所提出的這個協商的結論"},{"start":13239.557,"end":13265.994,"text":"謝謝吳春成副總召不過現在有兩個副總召一個是副坤祺總召一個你是副總召所以我們要分得很清楚好不好那各位幹部我知道大家意見都很多那麼後面還有其他的法律案我建議稍微等一下我們既然現在達不成共識我們就繼續溝通那協商草稿請大家就參考了我們後續也只能夠依照議事規則我們來處理"},{"start":13268.851,"end":13276.762,"text":"那我現在宣布休息三分鐘之後休息五分鐘之後我們進行下一項選罷法的協商好不好好我們現在休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":13297.823,"end":13299.873,"text":"謝謝國發會高副主委謝謝經濟部列席的官員謝謝請回謝謝"},{"start":13806.474,"end":13815.7,"text":"講得很好。非常好。好。謝謝大家。謝謝我各位黨團幹部請坐。請坐。我們現在討論這個公職人員選舉罷免"},{"start":13828.237,"end":13845.665,"text":"院長我是請求因為過去我們參加草野協商不管誰大誰小大家都會有退讓那也可以就我們爭議的標的不要說就沒有共識就沒有達成協商很可惜那我剛剛試著提出說因為目前呢民眾黨有一個產創條例第30條已經交付經濟委員會審查"},{"start":13848.786,"end":13877.538,"text":"依靠過去的立職法我們只能召開公聽會但是經過立職法的修改之後．可以有五十九條之一．可以開聽證會那聽證會是根據新的立職法那麼成立調查委員會也是根據新的立職法但是從剛剛的發言可以發現如果說我們現在就根據一個大法官宣告部分違憲還沒有經過完全修法的一個立職法來辦理成立調查委員會它的風險跟幅度是比較大的"},{"start":13878.098,"end":13899.372,"text":"但是如果根據五十九條之一委員會本來就可以辦理公聽會所以我們是不是可以用經濟委員會因為行使院會交付審查的慘狀條例第三十條我們除了辦理公聽會邀請社會人士來貢獻意見之外也可以針對民眾黨所提議的這些特定的案例我們來辦理聽證會"},{"start":13900.933,"end":13901.353,"text":"正草案與"},{"start":13921.818,"end":13940.545,"text":"此案兩案經第一會及第二十二次會議決定近乎二讀並按交付黨團協商本案已於十月二十月二十三日由國民黨團林思明委員主持我們已先行召集一次協商會議當日協商會議各黨團無法達成共識"},{"start":13941.585,"end":13968.982,"text":"因此向院長請求要求進行黨團協商我們現在開始協商針對法案的內容我們今天先介紹一下我們列席的各位所有的首長首先柯總召身體有點不舒服我們掌聲歡送他柯總召你多保重身體"},{"start":13970.999,"end":13977.783,"text":"第二位歡迎中選會李竺偉第三位歡迎司法院的周廷長第四位歡迎法務部的廖參事接下來我們先請提案的國民黨團請說明。"},{"start":13997.684,"end":14014.141,"text":"我想供這個選罷法的修正當然不管是我們執政黨或者是中選會在整個立法過程中都有很多意見但是我還是要特別跟這個我們全國民眾說明包含我們各位黨團幹部"},{"start":14015.763,"end":14038.403,"text":"我們現行的公職人選舉罷免法要操作罷免是非常的容易因為在連署的程序過程中它存在非常多的弊病因此我們將公職人員的選罷法將連署罷免的時候的門檻我們認為必須加嚴也就是說必須要提供身份證的引本"},{"start":14041.425,"end":14064.119,"text":"我們就是要讓罷免的程序流入讓有心人士可以將收集到他人的身份證或者是假冒的資料提出去當作連署的人數而導致說我們罷免連署的數據資料不公正而且造假"},{"start":14065.04,"end":14083.871,"text":"我們在過去就很多次發生過這樣的一個實際的例子不同聯署人的資料且簽據聯署資料時的筆跡這個可以說是完全不一樣的甚至有死亡的人的資料都出現在聯署的人數中"},{"start":14085.192,"end":14104.546,"text":"而且我們再做一個法律的比較我們看到總統還有副總統選舉罷免法他就明確的規定候選人的選舉連署就是要檢附國民身份證的影印本所以說如果沒有辦法明確辨認連署人的身份"},{"start":14105.507,"end":14130.075,"text":"是不是那個聯署人不能記錄必須刪除所以我們認為說那個既然總統副總統的選舉罷免法有這樣的規定那為了其他公職人員的選舉罷免就不用為什麼總統就想這樣子一個特別的一個權利在這個聯署的時候他們要檢舉法規規定要檢舉我們的身份證的影印本"},{"start":14130.895,"end":14152.297,"text":"其他公職人員在受罷免的時候就不用這是一個法律漏洞所以我們必須把它加以調整所以我想我們這次立法的修法我們真的是可以避免因為惡意罷免而浪費我們許多的社會資源"},{"start":14153.678,"end":14174.423,"text":"我們也可以讓更多優秀的我們這些公職人員全心來投入他的一個為國家為社會為我們的人民做全心全力的這個服務的一個工作而避免遭受這些惡意的一個罷免我想這也是我們民眾的一個損失所以我們希望"},{"start":14175.103,"end":14199.634,"text":"我們所有的公職人員在選舉罷免的過程的制度設計都要相同的一個制度設計而不要有不一樣的一個情況好以上謝謝謝謝林思明書記長的發言我們跟黨團幹部報告一下我們第一輪各黨團幹部發言完畢之後我們要請列席的行政首長來說明之後我們再進入第二輪這樣的話會比較順暢好不好第一輪先請各位黨團幹部接著請蔡宇宇書記長請發言"},{"start":14204.67,"end":14221.062,"text":"好,謝謝院長那我們在討論罷免法這一次的一個修法那主要國民黨的版本大家都是針對要附上這一個聯署人的國民身份證正反面的影本"},{"start":14221.923,"end":14247.39,"text":"那如果要附上正反面的影本基本上它就是增加了一個難度就是說你去連署的他必須同時身上帶有身分證正反面影本我想我們如果來自政科你就知道事實上很多老人家他是不會把身分證帶在身上的辛苦課金沒有帶東西所以他去連署的時候他沒有身分證的話表示他單純"},{"start":14249.871,"end":14278.708,"text":"簽名單純把它填進他的資料還不夠他必須要再返回去拿身分證所以我們會從這樣會說基本上你這樣的一個門檻就是增加了所謂連署的難度而且這個難度就會直接影響到了未來罷免案的成立那以目前我們雖然有多次的一個罷免的一個經驗事實上也是有成立的也有不成立的"},{"start":14279.068,"end":14301.789,"text":"所以看起來以這個目前這個門檻就是非常的橫貧也不是每一案都會成立那既然這樣的話我們就保留以現在的制度讓人民罷免的權利可以繼續存在那我想經過基隆這一次的罷免的狀況後我們的民進黨黨主席右昌主席他也說現在民進黨沒有"},{"start":14302.918,"end":14310.608,"text":"我們秘書長我們秘書長他也曾經是黨主席曾經是代理黨主席曾經曾經曾經"},{"start":14313.555,"end":14332.826,"text":"請尊重發言的黨團代表,謝謝。﹖民主黨也說過現在民進黨也沒有要推動所謂的大罷免所以在這樣的一個前提之下我認為說我們何必在這個時候大家正在討論總預算而且我們在討論一些人事權的時候何必把這個罷免權把人民的這樣的一個"},{"start":14333.866,"end":14363.032,"text":"最基礎的權利要在現在處理呢?真的是不急我當然再舉一個說過去我們民進黨當然在公投連署的時候我們曾經有提案說要附身分證的影本那當時國民黨當時的主席是江啟臣他也是很清楚的去講說你這樣的話第一個侵害隱私第二個提高連署的一個難度所以我會覺得說尤其是現在我們知道整個"},{"start":14364.453,"end":14375.955,"text":"這類詐騙的總控你把身份證正反面的一個影本提出來那個對於人民的心理壓力是很大的因為現在詐騙集團最主要都是叫你"},{"start":14376.345,"end":14404.984,"text":"要交出存摺交出你的身份證所以這個壓力是很大的所以人民不想把身份證交給其他人這個我們要必須合理我們必須要要去合理性的去思考這件事嘛大家記得不愛那我們又要叫他交出這個身份證正反面的一個影本等於是他就不要去罷免了他乾脆就不要了所以我也覺得這樣的一個修法事實上是比罷免所謂的一個門檻要提高"},{"start":14407.266,"end":14430.822,"text":"還要嚴苛因為他連最基本的成案都會產生困難所以基於這樣的原因我們還是具體建議請國民黨或是民眾黨我們在於這樣的一個選罷法的修法不要在現在處理先把這個權益繼續保留給人民謝謝蔡宇書記長的發言接下來請台灣民眾黨發言請內政部劉部長準備好台灣民眾黨請發言"},{"start":14436.189,"end":14458.574,"text":"好 這個選舉跟罷免這是公民行使他的公民權那這當然都是很重要的但是呢我們選舉很困難但是這個罷免太容易然後呢選舉需要身分證"},{"start":14460.191,"end":14479.762,"text":"為什麼罷免就不需要身分證其實這個又不合理那事實上已經事實上這個現在的罷免也的確事實上在實務上面已經成為政黨仇恨鬥爭的工具了真正的不是人民在行使行使他的公民權"},{"start":14480.803,"end":14501.622,"text":"所以我覺得這個本黨這個同意而且支持要提高這個聯署的程序那個嚴格的程序這個不是嚴格這只是恢復到正常而已以上好謝謝台灣民眾黨吳春成副總召的發言好現在我們請劉部長請"},{"start":14503.771,"end":14520.622,"text":"謝謝院長各位黨團幹部大家好那我先來講有關於剛剛這個國民黨的林思明委員所提到的連署的部分他有講到三個法案第一個呢總統的這個選罷法裡面的所謂的公民連署呢"},{"start":14520.862,"end":14547.023,"text":"他的規範是要涉及總統副總統候選人資格的取得跟罷免沒有直接相關然後再來公投法的話是針對事情針對公共政策的事項的成立那在公職選罷法裡面當然就是針對具有公職身份人的去留是有沒有被罷免都要提出來所以三個其實是不同的立法的考量"},{"start":14548.284,"end":14576.392,"text":"在公投法跟公職選罷法裡面目前為止他沒有減負的必要同時我們如果回到公職選罷法的規範其實從八十年開始修正到去年一百一十二年的六月九號我們已經修正了七十六條修正中選會電子系統僅供罷免領銜人徵求連署之用這個可以回應在傅坤祺委員裡面的提案內容之一的部分"},{"start":14577.212,"end":14590.976,"text":"至於兩位委員所領銜提案的部分．我們的回憶是這樣子第一個在增列罷免提案．跟聯署人應該附身份證影本的必要性的影響第一個剛剛有委員有提到現在因為詐騙橫行．或者是現在因為國民身份證在已經有牽涉到說在各執法的十五條的規定"},{"start":14599.139,"end":14615.069,"text":"你必須要符合第一個執行法定職務的必要範圍第二個是經過當事人同意第三個對當事人權益沒有侵害的各個情形使得為之所以要把身份證正面同時反面的也必須要影印的話恐怕會影響到要參與這個罷免連署人的意願"},{"start":14625.998,"end":14637.529,"text":"國民身份證正面有姓名出生年月日同一編號背面還有父母配偶住址這些都是屬於各自保護法在第二條第一款規定的部分"},{"start":14638.329,"end":14662.345,"text":"所以如果要把這個提案罷免聯署要付身份證影本的話真的是會影響到這個提案跟聯署的意願那這是第一個那第二項的部分就是說如果增列填寫國民身份證的發證日期恐怕在選務機關上面也會造成困擾第一個因為發證日期國民身份證除了發證以外他同時可以補證"},{"start":14663.906,"end":14687.025,"text":"也可以再修正。日期不同,在連署選務上的確認會產生變動,會增加在查核也就是連署當中查核的一些困擾當然第三點就是我剛有提到一百一十二年六月九號的時候我們已經修正了公職選罷法第七十六條明定中選會的電子系統僅供罷免領銜人徵求連署之用"},{"start":14692.99,"end":14719.908,"text":"而不是回復在電子系統的提議階段。」以上我們會認為說是不是各個委員說的說法我們都可以認同但是在目前這樣的時刻裡面就在提到修法的部分真的是會增加未來在選務機關上面或者是增加公民投票權還有罷免權為人民基本權利裡面的保障會反而降低這是我們簡單的報告謝謝各位"},{"start":14722.474,"end":14747.863,"text":"謝謝內政部劉部長的發言接下來請中選會李主委發言請司法院準備謝謝主席、各黨團的幹部各位先進大家晚安中選會基本上就這個案子我們跟法律的主管機關內政部的意見是一致的那我特別要再做一個補充就是說罷免跟選舉創制復決一樣都是憲法所保障的公民權"},{"start":14748.863,"end":14766.695,"text":"他既然是受到憲法的最高的一個保障那所以有關於任何公民權的這個法制的建立或者是檢討應該都站在保護的這個出發點來做衡量這是第一點跟各位做說明"},{"start":14767.655,"end":14795.809,"text":"第二點就是在委員的提案裡面首先第一個就是說在聯署甚至於包括是提議的階段都要附上這個身份證那考慮的兩個面向一個就聯署人來講他很可能會因為害怕他的個資被洩漏了因為現在這個詐騙集團他的詐騙手段裡面很重要的一個環節就是先取得個資了"},{"start":14797.45,"end":14810.994,"text":"所以他會擔心說他的個資被竊取被洩漏了因此會影響到他的連署的意願那這對於罷免權的行使來講當然是增加一點困難這是第一點"},{"start":14813.255,"end":14840.722,"text":"就另外一點來講就這個社會上很多人也許這些詐騙集團無孔不入的而且任何方式他都不會去放棄的所以他也很可能藉由所謂的罷免的提議也好聯署也好來騙取民眾的個資那這樣會不會助長了這個詐騙的盛行那這一點也是我們必須要考量的重點"},{"start":14841.962,"end":14847.988,"text":"二、填據身份證發證日期．簽署聯署後．如果身份證遺失或毀損．有發生換發或補發的情況．日期不一樣"},{"start":14864.783,"end":14892.458,"text":"那如果因為這種情形日期不一樣而被刪除的話那這個對於連署人來講也是不公平的所以這點我們也希望大家能夠予以斟酌那至於七十六條的部分在去年六月選罷法修正的時候已經刪除了電子系統在提議階段的適用已經刪除了"},{"start":14893.378,"end":14914.293,"text":"所以現在適不適合再把它放回去那如果放回去的話是不是會助長這個罷免案的這個犯案的提出這點也請各位黨團幹部能夠予以斟酌那總而言之我們的立場跟這個法律的主管機關內政部的立場"},{"start":14914.913,"end":14932.764,"text":"是一致的我們認為這個修正必須要是非常的審慎尤其是要著重在保障憲法所保護的公民權以上報告謝謝謝謝中選會李主委的說明接下來請司法院州廳長發言法務部請準備"},{"start":14943.81,"end":14965.709,"text":"謝謝院長各位委員司法院的報告第一點關於這兩部修正草案都是關於罷免程序事項的徵定因為涉及選舉政策的決定因此本院尊重組織機關還有大院職權的行使那至於細節的部分我們的意見如同"},{"start":14966.71,"end":14973.017,"text":"今年十月二十三日朝野黨團協商所提出的書面報告。以上。"},{"start":14983.736,"end":14999.27,"text":"院長、各位委員關於這次草案我們就98條增訂98條之二的部分分兩點提出意見供各位參佐那第一個部分就是說98條之二規範的行為就是"},{"start":15003.974,"end":15030.868,"text":"利用他人個人資料未經同意偽造假冒提議聯署者。」這一類的行為在目前現行的法制上有可以適用這個刑法兩百一十條的偽造私文書罪以及各執法四十一條非法處理利用個人資料罪來處斷那這兩個罪的法定刑度"},{"start":15032.281,"end":15046.576,"text":"比我們草案規定的都來得重。」那這個部分請委員可以斟酌一下就是說本條是不是有必要制定至於在"},{"start":15047.617,"end":15068.126,"text":"管理實務上是不是需要再增訂這樣的一個特別刑責條款那這個部分我們就尊重主管機關的意見那另外一個部分就是說草案規範的這一個行為形態也有一部分的意見提供給各位參考就是說我們的條文規定"},{"start":15070.919,"end":15091.029,"text":"未經同意偽造。」偽造的概念本質上它就包含了未經同意的這個概念在裡面那另外呢因為罷免的提議跟連署都是屬於夭視行為都必須要親自的簽名蓋章所以如果有"},{"start":15092.729,"end":15117.364,"text":"條文所稱的未經同意假冒提議跟連署那他也附隨的會有偽造的這個問題所以這個過程要見的行為形態也請各位委員如果說這一條也要增訂的話那能夠一併予以釐清以上報告好謝謝法務部廖參事的報告接下來吳思瑤幹事長請發言"},{"start":15120.847,"end":15134.36,"text":"謝謝主席今天終於進入這個深水區其實很多公民朋友最關切的就是朝野協商當中的選罷法因為這事實就如同剛剛中選會的這個李靜雯主委說的"},{"start":15139.004,"end":15159.62,"text":"憲法保障珍貴的人民公民權所以不管是立法者或是policy maker行政部門的政策制定者都要站在保護人民珍貴的憲法父權的角度來切入而不是用阻卻剝奪或沒收的角度"},{"start":15160.561,"end":15182.097,"text":"所以剛剛從中選會也好內政部主管機關也好都站在非常反對的立場來面對現在在野黨提出來的修法主管部會行政部門的意見非常的明確那民進黨團的意見也同樣非常的明確如果今天的修法過了"},{"start":15183.158,"end":15193.747,"text":"或者是今天協商結束．很快的就用院會．會不會明天就處理了．我們希望不要。．那這樣子修過的法．"},{"start":15194.915,"end":15217.881,"text":"增加了罷免的門檻要檢附身份證正反影本plus發證日期誰最開心就是詐騙集團最開心誰最開心那些表現不適任的地方首長或是民代可能也會開心因為他設下了罷免的層層難關有委員會提到總統副總統的選舉罷免法"},{"start":15224.373,"end":15242.37,"text":"當初也是要求要有身份證但是大家想想總統副總統選舉罷免法當初是一九九五年訂定的一九九五年的時空背景那個時候連個資保護法都沒有啊"},{"start":15243.516,"end":15267.391,"text":"那個時候對於個人資訊的保護的概念甚至是詐騙集團的猖獗完全不可同日而喻所以如果要拿總統副總統選罷法來做一個類比合理化今天沒收閹割了人民珍貴的罷免權限的行使我想這樣的比喻是不倫不類的"},{"start":15269.249,"end":15296.196,"text":"那今天民眾黨的總召離開了這個黃總召不在但我想2013年的黃國昌說的那一段話有必要在今天的朝野寫商大家來檢視過去黃國昌就說有一群立委未來會做很可怕的事他在立法院會做提案進一步讓罷免的程序變得複雜"},{"start":15298.308,"end":15302.937,"text":"要求每個提議人跟聯署人把身份證正反影本交出來"},{"start":15305.089,"end":15332.032,"text":"這是什麼就是這些立委要繼續讓你行使直接民權的路變得很困難這是2013的黃國昌總召但他今天好像我們上次在協商黨團協商林思敏委員交集的選罷法的協商黃總召也不在今天韓國瑜院長的協商他也不在我想黃國昌總召是不是自己也心知肚明"},{"start":15333.447,"end":15351.25,"text":"募收人民的民權他不想讓自己成為那個可怕的立委那如果這樣的話我們就好好來審思這樣子的提案修正真的不宜那最終呢我也要誠懇的跟主席做報告"},{"start":15353.232,"end":15377.007,"text":"這幾年來選罷法的重大的修正生意有三次第一次是我從最遠的講過來2015年1月22號修選罷法那時候修的重點是政黨補助門檻從5%下降到3.5%這非常重要這對於政黨的利益權益所以那一次的修法"},{"start":15377.927,"end":15393.113,"text":"召集委員．在內政委員會．陳其邁召委．審了三次．後來沒有結論．提交到院會層級．也就是現在韓院長主持的．這個level的協商．也進行了兩次"},{"start":15395.269,"end":15416.889,"text":"2016年11月29號選罷法的修正那個時候就是黃國昌時代力量的黃國昌他提議還權於民罷免的門檻不需要門檻那一次的討論是民進黨最後解救了黃國昌那一次的因為涉及罷免門檻"},{"start":15418.789,"end":15434.819,"text":"非常審慎因為是珍貴的憲法民權陳其邁同樣是擔任內政委員會的召集委員他審查了在內政委員會五次後來沒有共識提交院長層級的朝野協商兩次"},{"start":15438.004,"end":15462.009,"text":"最近一次的選罷法修正是2023年5月26去年對於候選人的排黑條款這對於每個從事公職的非常重要排黑條款訂定那一次的修正更審慎內政委員會的召集委員是陳玉珍陳玉珍委員那個時候為了選罷法修正他召集內政委員會的開會是七次"},{"start":15463.427,"end":15482.568,"text":"跟現在他處理財劃法三分鐘．儼然是完全不同的陳玉珍為了修選罷法．去年的陳玉珍在內政委員會審了七次提交到院長的協商兩次我用這樣的一個意識在處理就過去到現在的立法院面對"},{"start":15483.891,"end":15505.556,"text":"要憲法賦予人民的珍貴的罷免權利都要非常的審慎我們要站在保護人民的權利的角度而不是沒收人民的角度所以我也請求這麼重要的跟人民權利直接相關的議案我們內政委員會已經快轉沒有討論了"},{"start":15506.736,"end":15531.147,"text":"我也希望剛剛花了一點時間跟在座的各位以及韓院長說明是不是讓選罷法能夠大家多討論多思考真的不要很急切的大家都在看立法院保護人民的權利還是強害人民的權利好嗎我期待真的我不希望今天協商完沒有共識"},{"start":15531.947,"end":15535.412,"text":"就循議事程序就去表決。」我再次呼籲萬萬不可。謝謝。"},{"start":15543.669,"end":15567.927,"text":"謝謝主席我想這個選罷法的討論其實已經非常多了那麼事實上在我們在委員會裡面也做過這個選罷法的這個協商那其實我們都會去提到過去譬如說剛才提到過去在公圖"},{"start":15569.469,"end":15583.045,"text":"公投法裏面要提到身份證復銀本的時候當時國民黨有一些反對的意見我想時空環境其實它有一些變化尤其在這一次謝國良市長的罷免案之後"},{"start":15588.451,"end":15591.294,"text":"其實很多人確實在省思我們是不是花了非常多的社會的成本在裡面會不會勞民傷財剛才也提到其實過去歷次很多的罷免那有的成功有的失敗那但是大家會回頭去省思到底就是我們一個平凡的罷免"},{"start":15609.555,"end":15620.179,"text":"對於社會或者是對於民主政治他的意義是什麼所以像最近就是我們羅志強委員他所主持的這個智庫新智庫他也做了一個民調最新的民調那麼事實上就是都有將近六成的這個民眾事實上並不支持現行的這個選罷法裡面相關於罷免的一些他的設計或者他的"},{"start":15639.126,"end":15661.298,"text":"制度。」好那所以我們是不是可以考慮在做這個選罷法的一些修正那我當然知道這段時間呢民進黨團當然是極力反對那你可以看到包含我們今天在座的不管是中選會、內政部、法務部、司法院就如同剛才吳思瑤幹事長講的"},{"start":15664.039,"end":15666.581,"text":"通通反對當然反對啦其實現在以執政黨來說反對選罷法的修正已經非常非常的明確了但是我想請問一下在整個的過程裡面"},{"start":15684.853,"end":15707.093,"text":"你說今天如果說副身份證影本就是主卻和剝奪大家罷免的權利公民行使他的公民的權利當然我們也都速度的提到我們現在在總統跟副總統聯署的部分也是有身份證影本"},{"start":15708.214,"end":15733.451,"text":"那剛才吳思瑤幹事長提到說啊這個是1995年啊多年之前但是他也行之多年所以我不曉得今天民進黨是不是要告訴我們他們準備修那個總統跟副總統的選罷法了呢說把他全部都拿掉了呢我不知道你們是不是有這樣的一個暗示啊或者是有這樣的意思"},{"start":15735.032,"end":15738.634,"text":"那至於在講到所謂的詐騙沒錯我們現在的詐騙確實確實非常非常的猖獗那我想請問一下我們現在被詐騙這麼多人被詐騙這麼多錢請問他們通通都是去聯署了總統跟副總統的選舉嗎"},{"start":15759.875,"end":15785.234,"text":"很有限吧所以怎麼會把詐騙的問題去牽扯到說如果在這個不管是總統和副總統這個聯署裡面就是你去提供身份證影本造成現在的詐騙呢你自己出去外面說說看大家能不能相信啊這個執政政府怎麼可以甩鍋到這種地步啊"},{"start":15786.856,"end":15814.138,"text":"請問一下能夠連署到底有多少人而現在被詐騙的人數又是多少案件又是多少所以你這樣子扯真的一般的民眾真的聽不下去所以我們講到修法的部分我們還是會希望能夠在整個的選罷法的相關的規定裡面去彌補或者杜絕過去的一些的流弊"},{"start":15814.963,"end":15837.1,"text":"那確實過去確實有出現死人連署然後我們也很清楚的知道很多的罷免案其實是很多的樁腳或者是一些工會他可能一些工會的名單他就有身份證的這些相關的字號所以就直接抄嘛"},{"start":15838.069,"end":15865.558,"text":"就直接抄而其結果也增加這個選務工作後面的查核的相關的成本所以在我們這次選罷法的提出其實是我覺得是很合理的就是我們橫諸過去在整個的罷免案所產生的流弊以及現在民眾也普遍感受到平凡的罷免"},{"start":15867.199,"end":15885.369,"text":"他是不是符合民眾的一個需要民眾會不會覺得這是一個勞民傷財的事情那麼我們現在也但是我們仍然保留公民選擇的權利嘛大家都知道其實要罷免他基本上你如果有絕對你認為這樣的公職人員是應該被罷免掉的"},{"start":15890.211,"end":15913.689,"text":"那麼他也會願意拿出身份證影本就如同選在總統跟副總統的聯署裡面他認為這個人他也認為他應該去參與總統跟副總統的選舉的時候他也可以接受這個就是提供身份證影本我一直在講這個行之多年過去都沒有問題為什麼在罷免就出現了這麼大的問題呢"},{"start":15918.993,"end":15940.19,"text":"更不要說我們在這一次裏面包括是身份證影本還有他的發證日期那我剛才不是講嗎其實有些時空環境的改變那可能改變最快的是包含吳秉瑞委員還有我們在座的我們蔡易瑜書記長他們有共提今年四月共提的版本他們是發證的日期"},{"start":15942.031,"end":15963.985,"text":"那他們把他撤案了我們也尊重包含吳秉瑞委員最近也撤案一個公投也是發證日期我們也尊重讓他撤案就是他可能覺得他時空環境變了他可能幾個月前他覺得應該要這樣子然後聯署的民進黨委員也很多可是也許過了幾個月半年不到"},{"start":15964.645,"end":15981.624,"text":"他就覺得這樣子的方式不好當然我們大家都知道啦就是因為配合我們執政黨的一個政策嘛但是無論如何就必須要講的我們朝野協商是尊重大家政黨發表意見然後做一些相關的討論"},{"start":15983.286,"end":15998.191,"text":"但是我覺得不管是剛才之前的我們的調查委員會的成立也好或者選罷法的成立也好我們今天選罷法的修正也好不要變成說一定要聽從某一個政黨的意見"},{"start":16006.348,"end":16024.307,"text":"我們到院會去做處理他也是一個完全合法合乎程序的一個議事的處理不要把它變成講到說只要做議事處理他好像就是沒有討論完全不是這麼回事以上謝謝"},{"start":16032.823,"end":16058.808,"text":"謝謝主席剛才聽了因為我們是內政委員所以我也經歷了就是選辦法的法案的過程所以我是有講幾個就是我個人看到我覺得是要跟大家講一下剛才我們都說憲法保護人民的權利對不對所以人民權利除了選舉的權利"},{"start":16063.069,"end":16082.358,"text":"選罷選罷法選罷法是不是也是人民的權利所以我們要用人民的權利就是用身份證來去選出來每一個人每一票都是人民的信任的票對不對但是我們要去罷免的時候呢也是要同樣這樣子才對選舉的人是公平啊"},{"start":16083.038,"end":16083.378,"text":"對民眾黨黨團提議．立法院黨團提議．立法院黨團提議"},{"start":16101.903,"end":16102.884,"text":"二、研商有關公職權行使法部分條文修"},{"start":16127.705,"end":16129.866,"text":"講都是說不要講別人的過去啦過去我們現在啦但是呢又拿我們的黃總召拿來當模範如果大家當模範現在他講他想要做的大家為什麼不聽他的呢對不對不是這樣子的不要再一直在現在就是要講我們怎麼樣去討論達成共識不要一直要拿來別人的好的"},{"start":16152.66,"end":16170.11,"text":"自己留來用．如果覺得好用．就自己留來用．不要說別人的不好．還是自己的比較好．還有第三．大法官是人民選出來的嗎．但是我們所有的立法院的立法．交到大法官那邊．"},{"start":16171.451,"end":16176.856,"text":"所以大法官說這個法就是釋憲這個法是怎麼樣就是否決了所以我們是我覺得是我們真的我們立法院是人民選出來的大家要尊重我們要不管是要選"},{"start":16190.247,"end":16192.728,"text":"選出來的也要有身分證來才能去選舉沒有身分證也沒辦法去選所以我們要罷免的時候也是人民的權利我們也是要有身分證來去罷免我覺得就是這樣子的才是公平不要讓我們覺得什麼都是說詐騙集團現在"},{"start":16214.336,"end":16230.41,"text":"詐騙集團都是不是我們要去選舉的是因為很多一直在設立一個詐騙中心但是越打越炸所以也是很多人民被騙剛剛我才去質詢而已比特幣所以我們台灣"},{"start":16237.296,"end":16253.066,"text":"百分之八十被騙拿不回來所以這個都是我們要不同的層面還有去把關所以希望我們要這個就是嚴謹嚴謹連署謝謝謝謝麥義正委員的發言報告各位黨團幹部現在顯然我們沒辦法達到共識我現在說兩點"},{"start":16260.811,"end":16279.257,"text":"重要的來宣告一下請大家請聽一下第一本來選罷法既然沒有共識我們大家就繼續溝通二、現在接近六點我們跟大家報告一下下禮拜我們要擇期協商研會的事宜那麼還有附屬單位預算的密集協商"},{"start":16280.257,"end":16294.578,"text":"是不是我們今天就先到此為止那下週我們再來發文繼續來進行相關的協商請問各位黨團幹部有意見嗎好沒有意見那我們現在非常感謝各位行政首長的列席非常感謝大家我們現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16267","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc10c4563b5e5bf20a7931ae751f1d0721edb79b8bfb08e799ba3602ec23e667a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐富癸等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）至（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）至（七）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）、（五）、（六）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第（三）及（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。\n【第三、四案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-14T08:31:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T12:20:00+08:00","duration":13693,"影片長度":"03:48:13","委員發言時間":"08:31:47 - 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案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織"},{"start":1713.892,"end":1735.826,"text":"報告委員會出席委員9人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會。現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄。立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第12次全體委員會議議事錄。實現中華民國113年11月7日星期四上午9時至12時21分下午1時至4時12分地點本院紅樓302會議室"},{"start":1741.77,"end":1767.265,"text":"出席委員謝文龍介等12人列席委員洪文孟凱等6人列席官員法務部部長鄭明謙等人主席吳昭紀委員鍾憲報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項繼續並案審查委員廖偉祥等18人擬具接避者保護法草案等7案決議一大體討論完畢進行主條審查二明稱第一條至第10條第12條至第19條含對應資格提案條文"},{"start":1770.207,"end":1791.702,"text":"委員楊秋英等21人提案第4條第5條第8條第12條及第17條委員林月琴等17人提案第7條第9條第13條第14條及第24條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條委員徐草欽等19人提案第18條委員吳宗憲等4人所提修正動議均保留送院會處理三（委員林月琴等17人提案第8條照案通過"},{"start":1792.583,"end":1811.508,"text":"四）第11條趙委員吳宗憲等19人提案通過。五）本案審查完具擬具審查報告提請院會公決需加入黨團協商。院會討論時由吳召集委員中憲出席說明。六條次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用於授權主席及議事人員整理。經表決未通過動議一案宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1814.4,"end":1837.172,"text":"好,我們稍後再來進行議事的確認。接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員。先介紹這場委員,我們歡迎黃委員國昌。接著介紹應邀列席官員,包括行政院人事行政總處蘇俊榮人事長,歡迎您。以及常務副人事長,懷旭副人事長。"},{"start":1838.325,"end":1850.005,"text":"以及公務人力發展學院陳明中院長歡迎您。接下來介紹全序部政務次長張秋元次長歡迎您。那麼其餘"},{"start":1851.327,"end":1880.274,"text":"為即介紹的列席代表請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄。好那麼本次議程排定討論四項四案。第一、二案分別為並案審查行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案及中央行政機關組織基準法第29條及第39條條文修正草案。第三、四案"},{"start":1881.414,"end":1897.56,"text":"分別為審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總署及所屬主管收支部分及中央公教人員疾難救助基金收支部分"},{"start":1898.683,"end":1918.119,"text":"本日會議程序一本會往例。機關於報告時就法案及預算案一併報告。詢答時採綜合詢答。詢答後再依議程所列順序。主案進行首先是討論事項第一二案法案"},{"start":1918.959,"end":1941.831,"text":"於尋答後進行審查。第三、四案審查人種相關預算案。本次會議僅進行尋答,特此在做說明。好,那麼現在進行提案說明及機關報告。首先,先由機關來進行。請任…那個主席不好意思。你不是要說晚一點嗎?會議詢問。"},{"start":1955.684,"end":1974.091,"text":"謝謝主席我的會議詢問是今天我們要處理的法案包括了行政院組織法還有中央行政機關基準法請問一下主席為什麼要處理行政院組織法竟然沒有請行政院的秘書長來列席"},{"start":1977.433,"end":2001.049,"text":"這個目前行政院有來表示首先行政院組織法由人事總處他們來做說明另外我們這邊有收到他們的一個說明就是本院指派本院人事行政總處書務人事長俊榮代表列席兩個部分第一個"},{"start":2002.489,"end":2026.73,"text":"要邀請什麼樣子的官員到我們的司法法制委員會來練習這件事情那基本上官員的成績跟準不準價這個是主席的權責主席的權責我都敬表尊重但問題是作為司法法制委員會裡面其中一個成員我覺得有一些意見還是要清楚的表達之前"},{"start":2027.85,"end":2054.363,"text":"在處理行政院組織法的時候一例都是秘書長來司法法制委員會裡面進行列席報告因為有很多跟行政院組織相關的事項恐怕對人事長沒有不敬的意思但恐怕不是人事長的成績可以充分的來說明的那第二個部分之前已經有這樣子的例子了"},{"start":2055.373,"end":2070.463,"text":"我希望我們的司法及法制委員會在開會的時候不要讓行政院把方便當隨便應該適當層級的官員來司法及法制委員會列席做說明的就應該要來不要派一個沒有真正"},{"start":2077.779,"end":2088.831,"text":"在慣例上面可以處理行政院組織法層級的官員來這樣對司法法制委員會乃至於法案審理的慎重性恐怕都不是那麼適當我舉一個最簡單的例子2023年我們"},{"start":2093.823,"end":2113.923,"text":"基本上在處理有關於只是部會名稱的調整這一件事情當初的召委也是我們執政黨的劉建國那時候安排的行政院組織法的變動就是請立法院就是請行政院的秘書長來列席做說明"},{"start":2114.924,"end":2142.407,"text":"希望行政院以後在處理跟行政院組織法這麼重要關係的法案的時候秘書長該來立法院列席報告就來立法院列席報告否則的話在處理相關的法案上面恐怕行政院對於立法院在處理相關法案上面應該有的基本的尊重跟過去的議事慣例恐怕有所違背那最後"},{"start":2143.789,"end":2169.989,"text":"既然召委都已經做了決定也點頭了那我們當然是尊重主席的才智那是不是行政院來函的那個內容是不是可以給所有司法法制委員會的委員一份副本然後讓大家瞭解我們的行政院到底是怎麼樣說明今天秘書長竟然沒有來只讓人事長上來代打以上"},{"start":2171.581,"end":2193.882,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員的垂詢在這裡主席也做個說明本來依例行政院組織法來到本會進行審查會由秘書長來代表行政院做說明因此行政院是有表示星期四是行政院院會希望我們在本週的排程能夠安排星期三來審查行政院組織法"},{"start":2195.143,"end":2219.623,"text":"但是由於同一個時間關涉到的運動部組織法也是需要由教育部長來進行報告那麼主席也有跟教育委員會進行協調那本週週四教育委員會是安排教育部的預算審查所以等於是在考量到如果星期四我們本會排教育部的"},{"start":2221.084,"end":2241.298,"text":"運動部的組織法的報告那麼教育部長就很難兩邊兼顧在權衡考慮到其他教育文化委員會本週四希望能夠由教育部長列席報告預算那麼行政院在本週四上午又是行政院院會那如果說我們把今天的會議安排在星期三"},{"start":2241.878,"end":2257.771,"text":"那恐怕呢在兩者權衡之間我們昨天的運動部的組織法如果排成行政院組織法就沒有辦法由教育部長行政院秘書長昨天可以來但今天省行政運動部組織法教育部長就不能來"},{"start":2258.431,"end":2287.352,"text":"我們相信我們在委員會的運作跟行政院還有其他委員會是基於互相尊重我們也希望能夠跟教育委員會協調他們心急是不要排審預算讓教育部來報告運動部的組織法那這樣子本週三昨天我們就可以排審行政院組織法那麼行政院的代表秘書長也可以依慣例來出席總之這個議程的安排的確很難面面周到也非常感謝我們本會委員的體諒"},{"start":2288.412,"end":2314.415,"text":"因此我們本週三還是排運動部組織法本週四排行政院組織法本週三我們就有邀請到教育部的政部長到會做說明本週四排行政院組織法行政院秘書長表達行政院、行政院院會所以就由人事長來做說明也在這裡一併說明剛剛希望的公文的部分我們就提供給我們本會的委員參考"},{"start":2315.416,"end":2334.056,"text":"那本席也會將剛剛的說明的來龍去脈險要的附上希望委員參酌好接下來呢如果沒有其他詢問我們就進行機關報告那我們機關報告呢呃是先請行政院人事總處人事長蘇俊榮報告請就法案及預算案一併說明發言時間6分鐘請"},{"start":2340.556,"end":2362.115,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。首先請就行政院組織法第三條及中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條三十九條的修正草案進行報告,為落實總統推動全民運動,促進競技專業發展及強化運動產業等重大的政策,"},{"start":2362.876,"end":2377.548,"text":"本次行政院組織條整規劃成立應動部,相關組織法案共計八案,成門大宴排入議程交互委員會陸續審查,表達最誠實的謝意並感謝各位委員的辛勞。"},{"start":2379.877,"end":2398.024,"text":"應東部兼廣大各界建研及相關部會充分討論將以全新的組織架構成立在應東部下徵社全民應動署以及行政法人國家應動產業發展中心並承接原來由教育部監督的行政法人國家應動訓練中心及國家應動科學中心"},{"start":2401.385,"end":2420.53,"text":"共計成立一署三個中心因應本次行政院組織調整系統部修正行政院組織法增設運動部及中央行政機關組織基準法將部的總數由14調整為15進請大院各位委員先進支持完成運動部及相關法案立法作業"},{"start":2421.61,"end":2450.79,"text":"接下來就總署一一四年的施政重點及預算編列情形進行報告。在顏額管理方面,為落實顏額總量管理及妥善配置政務之言,本總署將持續引導機關應用數位科技推行自研討檢討業務流程,協助機關進行業務減量,同時配合行政院重大政策方向,社會關注議題,核實配置能力。另外,"},{"start":2451.79,"end":2478.256,"text":"告合速發部政策方向以及數位化及AI工具應用狀況滾動調整115年的嚴格評鑑進行方式以強化政務人力支援的應用效能。在公務人員培訓方面以打造台灣成為智慧國家為中心配合國家重大政策規劃辦理高階人才國家政務班及高階領導研究班持續發展公務人員AI關鍵職能"},{"start":2480.296,"end":2504.047,"text":"規劃開辦多元的公務人員AI通識智能課程以及建設推廣數位課程本總署也積極推動人事資料雲端保存及文件電子化業務另外在符合資訊安全及法規前提下根系推動生成式AI服務以簡化人之日常工作及提供優質人事服務為目標在提升"},{"start":2505.248,"end":2518.006,"text":"整個公務職場環境方面一一四年軍公教員工待役經行政院合併至一一四年一月一號起調整三個百分比是至二十五年以來首度聯繫兩年條薪"},{"start":2520.257,"end":2536.897,"text":"為了營造公部門友善生養環境,持續推動員工托育服務,充實托育設施網站支援以及深化員工協助方案互效能。另外,持續了解各個機關公使及勤修新制落實情形以保障公務人員健康權。"},{"start":2538.018,"end":2565.978,"text":"在一百一十四年的預算部分本總處及所屬稅率預算編列三千九百一十萬八千元較上個年度法定預算四二二九萬七千元減少三一八萬九千元稅出編列二十六億兩千五百零六萬九千元較上個年度法定預算二十六億五千一百四十六萬元減少兩千六百三十九萬一千元"},{"start":2566.738,"end":2580.785,"text":"中央公教人員急濫救助金114年收入編列622萬3千元支出編列105萬3千元以辦理限職公教員工急濫救助貸款項目包含三病醫護"},{"start":2582.606,"end":2586.77,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":2600.163,"end":2628.66,"text":"提升及合理化三大施政策略推動專業及前瞻性的人力支援管理措施,落實國家勇氣發展的目標。禁請各位委員繼續會議支持。以上報告進行指教。謝謝。好,謝謝。那麼,其餘提出書面報告的有教育部國民及學前教育署副署長戴淑芬副署長。好,有沒有口頭補充?"},{"start":2631.926,"end":2643.436,"text":"其餘提出書面報告之列席機關如口頭補充其書面內容列入公報記錄。提案說明及報告發言完畢。相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄。現在開始進行詢答。"},{"start":2648.801,"end":2665.876,"text":"由於今日預計在詢答完畢之後我們會繼續進行討論事項第一案的法案之主條審查因此本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘均不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記請登記第一位黃委員國常發言"},{"start":2682.929,"end":2707.964,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請人事長。請人事長。委員長。人事長好,辛苦了。處理行政院組織法,如同我剛剛會議詢問所講的,一例是應該要請秘書長來。不過秘書長今天很忙,主席也准假了,所以這件事情可能人事長就要多擔待。針對有關於行政院組織法,"},{"start":2709.585,"end":2730.398,"text":"因為要因應運動部的增設所以數目要增加這件事情台灣民眾黨黨團是競表同意這一點問題通通都沒有因為我相信成立運動部能夠發展有關於全民體育以及相關重要的政策是台灣社會的期待"},{"start":2731.198,"end":2738.065,"text":"但除了有關於運動部的偵測以外另外一個牽涉到今天的中央行政機關組織基準法裡面的規定"},{"start":2741.38,"end":2743.601,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2763.568,"end":2789.538,"text":"為了要好好的去照顧這些新住民的權益也加速他們融入整個台灣的社會那增強彼此之間的認同感我們在上個會期三讀通過了新住民基本法在新住民基本法裡面第四條明確的規定內政部應該設置新住民事務專責中央三級行政機關"},{"start":2791.451,"end":2818.188,"text":"為了因應這個新住民基本法的三讀通過我想要請教一下林市長依照目前中央行政機關組織基準法的規定我們三級機關的數目有幾個七十七十個那現在七十個使用了幾個現在七十個都用滿了都用滿了那下一個問題新住民基本法第四條已經三讀通過成為我國有效的法律案"},{"start":2819.475,"end":2847.069,"text":"裡面也規定要設置中央三級行政機關所以現在打算是怎麼辦呢?行政院的立場我跟委員報告因為事實上內政部他也成立一個新住民的專責三級機關的籌備處要籌備多久?這個我可能要請教內政部因為內政部有提供相關資料我直接請教新住民基本法什麼時候要施行?"},{"start":2850.659,"end":2872.259,"text":"我們尊重內政部因為他整個分工還有人員移撥他檢討完以後他會見（施行日期是由誰定的?是內政部定還是行政院定?內政部會報給行政院來核定所以最後施行日期還是由行政院定嘛對不對?是所以依照行政院的立場什麼時候要施行?"},{"start":2874.215,"end":2891.024,"text":"呃...報委員我...這個部分我沒有辦法回答不是啊你今天代表秘書長來嘛所以我才說你承擔了很多你不該承擔的東西嘛要你來這邊練習回答你沒有辦法回答的問題行政院什麼時候施行秘書長有跟你做交代嗎?"},{"start":2896.128,"end":2910.547,"text":"昨天我有跟秘書長請示他現在就等內政部把這些相關的分工職長把他釐清以後會簽行政院因為什麼時候簽上行政院司法日期由行政院定行政院就要扛起責任"},{"start":2911.721,"end":2936.316,"text":"不是行政院沒有擔當還推給內政部院推給部會不會太難看啊現在擔心的是什麼現在擔心的事情啊是新住民基本法我們三讀通過了以後行政作業需要時間大家都理解大家都理解但問題是你什麼時候施行總要給一個答案吧要不要遙遙無期嗎現在的問題是什麼"},{"start":2938.806,"end":2964.528,"text":"給你們籌備給你們準備七十個三級機關全部都滿了嗎?是那七十個三級機關全部都滿了現在有打算要裁測哪一個三級機關嗎?呃報告委員我想這個到時候內政部送到行政院到時候是等到什麼時候?我行政院一定會通盤來檢討七十個對行政院的通盤檢討需要多久?這種話聽多了啦"},{"start":2965.799,"end":2983.369,"text":"都是話術嘛。行政院通盤檢討。七月十六號三讀通過。今天幾號?今天十一月十四號。到現在都還沒有一個基本的方針跟策略喔。行政院到現在沒有基本的方針跟策略喔。"},{"start":2985.154,"end":3002.333,"text":"新住民的權益是可以這樣被糟蹋的嗎?要等多久?七十個三級機關七十個全部都滿了三讀通過我現在就請教一下行政院嘛你們具體的法制作業你們具體的籌備現在就掛一個籌備處嘛啊掛一個籌備處我的問題就來了啊"},{"start":3006.59,"end":3034.479,"text":"是要籌備多久?現在有關於新住民權益保障在施行以前新住民籌備處那個籌備處的人力有多少?人事長知不知道?他是一個任務編組因為雖然移民署一個組過來做整體規劃所以總共有多少人?這個抱歉我手上沒有這個資料"},{"start":3036.823,"end":3049.45,"text":"你是人事長是內在部承認阿三級機關署已經額滿阿會跟人事總署主計總署研議調整來跟你們研議調整開了幾次會"},{"start":3056.369,"end":3075.339,"text":"內政部講的阿 這不是我編的阿 跟你們演繹調整阿現在我就要具體的問阿 內政部到底是對媒體放消息講空話還是真的有演繹調處 到目前為止內政部針對這個演繹調處跟你們開了幾次會到目前還沒有 到目前都還沒有 是"},{"start":3077.478,"end":3086.107,"text":"內政部是在混嗎?對媒體說要找你們演藝調處,今天在立法院承認啊,從來沒有找過你們啊!任市長你覺得內政部這種態度對嗎?你尊重內政部嘛!阿你覺得內政部有文我沒有在尊重新住民!"},{"start":3102.406,"end":3127.436,"text":"事實上內政部也非常重視新住民非常重視啊 重視到在媒體上放消息感覺好像很積極說要找你們延逸調處今天人事長在這邊承認啊從來沒找過你們啊人事長今天會後回去發一個函給內政部好不好說委員很關心啊請問你們什麼時候來找我們延逸調處啊"},{"start":3128.936,"end":3158.579,"text":"可以嗎?報告委員我一隻卡電話要快一點啦!好!你給我換文給小班啦!不是啦!你們在那邊打電話打來打去的我覺得啦在這個時代啦所有的東西白紙黑字留下的紀錄比較好啦!否則到時候我們的國家足球隊又上場啦!各部會在那邊踢皮球踢來踢去的踢到最後不知道誰要負責任我給你的建議啊是發個文啦留下白紙黑字的紀錄啊這樣好不好?"},{"start":3161.677,"end":3186.249,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文�"},{"start":3189.773,"end":3216.792,"text":"讓給新住民的三級機關還是認為中央行政機關組織基準法33條又一併修正調整的必要?目前是朝為此上限就70個內部來做組織的檢討。那現在檢討是要裁測哪一個數?因為還在檢討階段所以要檢討多久?因為這個檢討的部分還要牽涉不是啦我建議啦你也回去跟行政院報告是"},{"start":3217.847,"end":3232.046,"text":"因為今天你們來的書面報告完全沒有針對中央行政機關組織基準法第33條表示任何意見嘛是不是有寫在裡面我沒有看到沒有嘛這個例子很罕見欸"},{"start":3233.584,"end":3262.723,"text":"通常行政機關對於不同的委員不同的黨團所提出來的法律修正案都會表示意見啊有的同意啊有的不同意啊有的方向同意啊內容文字要做調整啊但我拜讀了你們今天來的書院報告對中央行政機關組織基準法第33條沒有任何的書面意見欸沒有任何的書面意見所以現在行政院的立場是什麼直接無視"},{"start":3264.4,"end":3264.68,"text":"五（委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":3285.748,"end":3310.747,"text":"有立場啊就是在70個範圍內啊只是說要如何去做組織的調整整併這個內部還在溝通這就是問題嘛大家擔心的是什麼當你要裁撤掉一個三級機關的時候知識體大你覺得被裁撤的人心裡會不會舒服按照過去的經驗一定是非常不舒服嘛對不對"},{"start":3312.998,"end":3328.426,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案 案件 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":3341.886,"end":3342.506,"text":"我講這是假新聞嘛 這假新聞嘛"},{"start":3371.907,"end":3387.398,"text":"我們針對假新聞阿要嚴厲的駁斥阿我們痛恨假新聞阿痛恨假訊息阿誰對媒體亂放話放假訊息假新聞不用追究責任嗎卓榮泰在院會裡面阿回答文邁毓真委員說你要研議多久目前我們還要再研議"},{"start":3402.281,"end":3425.394,"text":"言議就是我們會繼續努力啊所以今天任市長很稱職啊你今天來用的詞彙啊跟卓榮泰一模一樣啊可能跟我們過去這幾年一直在追問民進黨政府什麼時候要兌現選舉的政治承諾的時候一模一樣啊就是言議再言議嘛言議再言議啊現在有在關注立法院運作的人都知道啊"},{"start":3426.906,"end":3452.059,"text":"要問你們問題的時候我們還在持續研議當中不斷研議當中主席站起來了希望今天人事長希望今天人事長把在委員會裡面聽到的意見帶回去行政院不要繼續用研議當作拖延的藉口當初新住民基本法我們三讀通過施行日期給行政院訂是要給你們方便不要把方便當隨意變什麼時候"},{"start":3454.724,"end":3476.131,"text":"要施行遙遙無期。新住民專責機關什麼時候要成立也遙遙無期。這樣對不起臺灣新住民的朋友。這樣可以嗎?好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝黃委員。謝謝蘇理事長。由於議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢,尚未確定。現在先確定議事錄。請問各位,上次會議事錄有錯過以後?"},{"start":3478.615,"end":3485.741,"text":"沒有。那麼我們議事錄就確定。接下來我們就繼續邀請陳委員俊宇發言。"},{"start":3499.995,"end":3500.535,"text":"副署長早"},{"start":3522.084,"end":3548.195,"text":"我們今天要審查的是這個行政院組織法和中央行政機關組織基準法那也是為了因應運動部所屬的這個機關成立那需要同步進行相關的這個修法那我想從昨天的這個巡討過程中大家都對運動部都樂觀其成也抱著期待那所以今天我想就運動部的業務以及相關的運動政策來就教我們體育署"},{"start":3548.855,"end":3549.276,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":3564.71,"end":3580.787,"text":"以這個現況對於這種各種場域訓練場館可能都有不同的這種標準的管理方式那對於公有的這個訓練設施社區化有沒有分級管理的這種相關規範或是策略我想請教我們副署長"},{"start":3581.608,"end":3598.738,"text":"跟委員報告一下目前大概所有針對運動場館的標準我們目前是按照階段來做一個處理首先應該是針對棒禮球場的部分我們其實現在體育署這邊針對全國的所有的棒禮球場都有經過相關的一個盤點"},{"start":3599.719,"end":3600.499,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":3629.372,"end":3629.432,"text":"五）委員"},{"start":3650.828,"end":3650.848,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":3666.989,"end":3691.972,"text":"議案相較於雙北地區應該要再增加我們目前只看到宜蘭縣就是在宜蘭運動公園旁有一個國民運動中心另外還有一座就是之前副組長您去參加動工的在羅東的全民運動館目前在施工當中也希望明年可以順利來完工應該是可以吧"},{"start":3692.692,"end":3721.838,"text":"按照目前的進度應該是可以,我們也都會辦理相關的施工查核。好,那這部分就要再拜託我們提出持續的追蹤了。那我們從民眾的這種運動習慣調查來看,選擇到運動中心的人還是比較佔少數。這個原因到底是怎樣?我想請教副署長就是,我們要如何來創造民眾可以到運動中心的這個誘因?應該要如何做出這種市場的區隔?我想請教副署長。"},{"start":3722.698,"end":3748.838,"text":"這部分可能也跟委員報告一下大概就國內的民眾來講目前有付費在運動的概念可能還是需要我們這邊再努力來推展再推動因為國民運動中心在之前我們大概也補助了各縣市政府這邊設立了31座目前也都有在按照規定相關的規定在營運因為他是用OT的方式是委外廠商這邊來辦理相關的一個營運"},{"start":3749.719,"end":3774.677,"text":"所以OT的方式的話可能就會牽涉到相關一個收費標準的訂定可能就不會是像我們一般在田徑場那個學校田徑場或是公園裡面在運動是無常的所以有相關的這樣一個收費標準訂定之後這個可能就會造成民眾要進入到國民運動中心裡面運動是不是這麼可及他的一個這個價格是不是這麼親民"},{"start":3776.238,"end":3776.258,"text":"議員吳沛憶"},{"start":3792.87,"end":3793.07,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":3814.91,"end":3841.032,"text":"是不是可以更有效的來提升並且推廣我們這個項目的一個增加的一個目標也可以提高這個誘因?因為目前這個階段我們其實也在推行新一個階段的公建計劃公共建設計劃是那個目前各縣市政府也都已經在申請然後陸續在核定當中委員這邊所提的有一些新興的運動項目那個在這些全民運動館或是熱火運動館"},{"start":3843.214,"end":3844.474,"text":"議員徐富癸等17人擬具"},{"start":3870.662,"end":3896.57,"text":"委員長早我想就教人事長就是如何來提升我們的運產中心作為行政法人的一個這個成效因為有關這個監督和評估的機制相關的規範是訂定在我們行政法人法當中但是我們對於這個運動產業賦予比較彈性的這種編制就是希望能夠達到更好的這種績效尤其在我們這個運產中心未來"},{"start":3898.951,"end":3899.131,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":3921.935,"end":3934.672,"text":"謝謝委員事實上人總他負責整個行政法人的一個業務推動就如同委員剛才提到我們都會以實際性把像我事實上我們現在最近每一年都在檢討政府"},{"start":3936.414,"end":3955.694,"text":"對行政法輪的這些投資相關的事項就如同剛才委員提到了國發基金的引入還有目前經濟部他有相關運動產業科技相關領域的這些技術資源的引入事實上我們都是同步在評估評估之後假如有需要去修改行政法輪我們會去進行這樣的一個動作"},{"start":3958.357,"end":3976.002,"text":"好,那這部分再請我們人總研議讓未來運動部還有相關的這個三個行政法人能夠發揮最大的功效那另外有關這個我們人事總署明年所編列的這個預算在給予這個福利制度規劃的這個計畫當中有編列"},{"start":3978.823,"end":4006.702,"text":"一條151萬8千元規劃內容也包括辦理公部門這個托育相關政策那其中我想就鼓勵各機關能夠推動來設置這個職場托育設施的部分來做探討我想請教這個任市長我們到今年為止我們公部門辦理托育的服務的情形為何那是否比去年有顯著的一個提升的效果"},{"start":4007.979,"end":4011.323,"text":"我跟委員報告一下截至到今年9月30號我們總共有197個托嬰托育設施那"},{"start":4018.793,"end":4044.673,"text":"我跟委員報告除了既有設施去改善他有一些困難性像要符合蕭王法規還有拉羅城的限制面積的限制之類同樣的我們也有協調內政部的國土署在一些新建的政府的這些公共設施裡面要一流拖音拖幼的這些設施我們是用多元的方式同時在推動"},{"start":4047.022,"end":4068.605,"text":"好 那我想對於我們這個托育設施的設置我們除了希望能夠持續擴大來辦理之外那對於品質的這個把關以及是否能夠符合家長的這個需求和期待也是很重要的所以我這部分我想請教我們人總這邊對於員工子女托育的這個需求我們是多久去調查一次"},{"start":4071.03,"end":4071.05,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":4090.856,"end":4090.976,"text":"五（委員"},{"start":4119.082,"end":4121.084,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝蘇人士長。接下來請陳委員發會發言。主席,我們請人士長。好,有請蘇人士長。委員早。人士長早。"},{"start":4148.342,"end":4173.439,"text":"我們今天等一下稍後就要審查我們行政院人事行政總署的這個所屬114年度的中央政府總預算所以今天我們等一下稍後我們也會就總預算編列的一些部分來請教我們人事長那這個我想跟人事長在我們在這個就這個會期齁"},{"start":4175.779,"end":4203.15,"text":"我們之前就排過兩次的質詢有關業務報告再來有一次AI的專題討論在9月30跟10月14號本席在這兩次質詢裡面都那時候有提出對於我們人事總署主政的有關政府AI人工智慧智能實施計畫的一些項目我們有進行過一些請教"},{"start":4206.124,"end":4232.207,"text":"我看到我們這個在在11月4號的時候我看到說我們這個行政那時候我有提出建議說希望把這個這個我們AI 的這個人工智慧智能實施計畫我希望能夠列入公務人員終身學習10小時的必修課程已經納入了我知道對我現在在這看到我看到你們在在這個"},{"start":4234.919,"end":4253.733,"text":"從明年度114年1月1號開始你們用這個這個願受人陪制第1130022209號的函你們已經把他這個從明年度的1月1號開始公務人員每年都必須完成"},{"start":4255.176,"end":4265.744,"text":"這個課程,必須完成的課程裡面新增了人工智慧。這部分我首先感謝我們人事總書這邊的努力,也在這裡給你們肯定。"},{"start":4272.301,"end":4291.489,"text":"那我今天我們等一下稍後要審這個總預算我就今天就很仔細的看了我們這個人總的這個相關今天有關這個114年度施政計畫跟這個收支預算我看你們的報告啦齁你們也在報告裡面也也在這個施政狀況裡面齁你們也重申了這個"},{"start":4294.28,"end":4322.456,"text":"這個要提升行政院公務人員人工智能實施計畫那在這個重要施政計畫裡面也把這個AI通識智能齁公務人員AI通識智能都列在你們的這個這個重要施政計畫裡面那這個都很好這個我都肯定啦齁因為畢竟我們現在這個內閣是是號稱要成為一個AI內閣但是接著我看到你們這些這個施政口頭報告這些書面報告之後但是接著"},{"start":4323.541,"end":4323.681,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":4355.252,"end":4379.309,"text":"在我們6月6號行政院所提出來公務人員人工智慧智能實施計畫裡面包括一些不是年度的計畫是長期的從113年度到117年的一個長期實施計畫照理講這個都是過去沒有的啦理論上應該要呈現在我們的預算上面"},{"start":4380.834,"end":4388.66,"text":"但是我這樣我就仔細的翻閱你們預算書就是找沒有看到沒有看到我們的這個相關的這個實施計畫在我們預算書裡面欸"},{"start":4393.999,"end":4410.351,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明那事實上我們在人力學院裡面有一個訓練輔導級研究裡面有一個項目是在職訓練研習課程的部分我們有編了400萬事實上400萬是不夠對對訓練輔導級研究裡面的在職訓練研習課程裡面有400萬"},{"start":4417.876,"end":4444.634,"text":"啊事實上這400萬是不夠的所以我們現在同時也在這個禮拜二我們有跟國安會去申請一個專案的一個計畫是2500萬因為我們在編這個預算的時候因為6月6號才通過嘛然後114年本身我們的預算的編列是被我們在兩三在二月三月之間擬嘛沒有辦法直接就加入嘛"},{"start":4445.034,"end":4461.857,"text":"未來我們會針對115到118一個比較長期性的…… 市長這樣的理由不太好啦是6月6號就已經宣示的一個重要的一個政策齁只有在明年度的預算的編列裡面你說來不及呈現這個這個是就就就"},{"start":4463.072,"end":4486.83,"text":"民間的觀感我想恐怕不太能夠接受了你說因為二、三月你們就開始編然後六月六號才有這個計畫然後現在十一月的你們所提出來審查的預算裡面你說因此來不及編入民間的預算我換一個方式跟委員報告啦事實上我們現在同步假如明年要大幅的去推動政府機關不是假如這個是你們的實施計畫這六月六號你們公布的"},{"start":4490.672,"end":4506.035,"text":"公務人員AI人工智慧提升實施計畫這400萬是BASE ON現有的基礎所以我們在禮拜二有去跟國發會申請一筆2500萬的一個訓練的經費明年就會來加入等於明年我們有2900萬也就是說你們現在6月6號所提出的計畫你們沒有辦法在這個預算書裡面呈現呈現只有400萬不夠所以你們"},{"start":4518.827,"end":4539.779,"text":"現在跟國發會那邊來申請這個專案的預算2500萬通過了沒有目前在審查不過我有親自拜託吳主委他說如果沒有過勒應該沒有啦我們就只做400萬啦報告委員我非常有信心啦"},{"start":4544.362,"end":4562.092,"text":"市長這個我有點哭笑不得你現在預算我拿預算書翻翻翻翻不到預算然後你說啊這個因為因為這個6月6號才決定的計劃我們來不及編列所以我們就就去現在跟國發會申請這個專案的預算就算預算到現在還沒有準"},{"start":4566.394,"end":4578.062,"text":"這是我們六一六號大張旗鼓開記者會的。國科會的一萬名年有一堆五成,內地基中可以去做人工智慧相關的,我們有去國科會申請2500萬,這個目前是在審查啦,應該國科會應該會安置。好我跟你講,這樣了任市長。"},{"start":4589.184,"end":4610.314,"text":"這個6月6號公布這個實施計畫8月7號我們卓院長去出席我們副首長這個副首長共事營的時候他那時候是對外正式宣布明年度的預算也就是我們等一下開始審的預算明年度的預算裡面我們這個有關AI的提升他要編列100億100億喔編列100億來做這個人工智慧的提升"},{"start":4616.465,"end":4636.737,"text":"在哪裡?一百億的主體應該是在數位發展部數位發展部還有國科會那個主體會在這兩個部會主政單位是你公務人員的提升計畫是你主政對不對?公務人員的提升我不是說一定一百億都要點人種我沒有這樣說我是說這一百億在哪裡?"},{"start":4640.979,"end":4641.98,"text":"我委員報告其實提升人工智慧這個"},{"start":4669.754,"end":4689.278,"text":"在整個行政院的政策裡面是相關部會的合作。主體會在數位發展部然後國科會。我上前兩次就跟你在質詢的時候就已經跟你我們就這個部分溝通過了。主體主政單位大部分他的六大計畫裡面四大計畫就是我們人總負責的啦。這個數法部只負責一個部分啦。"},{"start":4695.951,"end":4719.722,"text":"時間到了我再一個問題請教個人也很關心有關我們公務人員近日發生的有中央部會有員工不堪霸凌輕生的案件我們大家也都很關心這樣子也都非常關心這個事情那看了結果我就趕快來了解"},{"start":4720.93,"end":4720.97,"text":"五）委員"},{"start":4744.773,"end":4745.193,"text":"三）委員林宜"},{"start":4759.369,"end":4759.79,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":4775.782,"end":4794.945,"text":"我們可以提供補助讓公務員能夠自行在民間尋求幫助這是一個思考方向請任市長思考我跟委員報告事實上員工協助方案有些是在辦公室進行有些我們會給同仁"},{"start":4795.646,"end":4818.159,"text":"因為每一個機關他去洽簽的這些民間的諮詢的單位不一樣,我們會給他電話號碼,他可以直接去call,這個我們總組...你們現在齁,整個機制你們也欠缺,你們也欠缺這個有關危機啦、非自願啦、轉介這些,你們這些機制都不夠完整,事實上都不夠完整。那最後我就是希望你們這個部分齁,"},{"start":4819.56,"end":4820.321,"text":"接下來有請林委員私名發言。"},{"start":4857.282,"end":4857.302,"text":"蘇貞市長"},{"start":4864.145,"end":4881.308,"text":"委員早市長早市長我想我接續那個剛剛黃國昌委員他的一個提問就有關新住民基本法他在今年7月16號我們立法院就已經三讀通過那麼賴總統也在今年的8月12日已經正式公佈"},{"start":4882.629,"end":4910.44,"text":"其中第四條就明定說我們內政部要設置新住民事務的負責中央三級的行政機關來統籌規劃相關有關新住民權益保障的相關的事宜但是我們看到今天的整個修法的版本裡面有我們民眾黨他提出就中央行政機關組織基準法第33條的這樣的一個修法的版本"},{"start":4911.567,"end":4938.468,"text":"但是我們在今天卻沒有看到這個行政院就或者是這個相關內政部就這個版本或者人事長你就這個版本來提出相關修法的一個建議所以仍然我們看到今天33條的版本還是仍然維持局還有署的總數以70個為限沒有做任何的更動所以我們會覺得說"},{"start":4940.769,"end":4966.576,"text":"欸 阿西立法院三讀通過的法律啊那為什麼行政院到現在還不願意公佈施行啊現在還不公佈施行 已經多久了從8月到現在 總統是8月12號公佈今天是11月14號 三個多月還沒有公佈施行所以到底 因為今天秘書長沒來啦"},{"start":4968.513,"end":4974.383,"text":"剛才黃國昌委員主席也講說今天是由你代理到底什麼時候要公佈事情"},{"start":4976.377,"end":5002.791,"text":"你有去問嗎?你能回答嗎?我有請內政部就是加快在執行過程中有需要我們人種協助的地方我們會因為這裡面我跟委員報告一下現在是成立新住民他籌備處那籌備處他一定會跟相關因為新住民進來以後他會跟就業有關會跟醫療有關會跟教育相關領域的"},{"start":5004.032,"end":5004.452,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5033.885,"end":5057.613,"text":"我想法條也講得非常清楚就是要由設立中央的三級行政機關以統籌、規劃、研究、諮詢、協調、推動、促進新住民的就學、就業、培力、關懷、協助以及多元服務的相關事宜當然是很多的事項但是我剛才聽到說黃國昌委員問你啊"},{"start":5059.174,"end":5067.948,"text":"說內政部已經跟你做協調有沒有?跟你開會做這個相關的事項的一個研議沒有?好像都沒有?"},{"start":5069.087,"end":5069.467,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5102.617,"end":5126.007,"text":"我希望政府的相關部門真的要重視相關立法進程你現在施行日期你剛才提到有這麼多的事務要去做協調但是三個多月了到現在仍然沒有找我們人事總處來做相關的未來人力或者預算這些相關的一個配置的一個研議"},{"start":5128.488,"end":5144.522,"text":"這樣對嗎?政府機關是這樣做事的嗎?行政效率那麼差嗎?我跟委員報告因為我們部會之間有他的一個分工現在有組織的內政部他移民署有成立他成立一個籌備處這個籌備處是一個任務編組這個任務編組他就開始啟動了再跟相關的這些大概要多久?據你所知"},{"start":5155.563,"end":5158.545,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案》案"},{"start":5172.335,"end":5172.575,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5191.189,"end":5217.906,"text":"我想我們針對這個我剛才提到的就是說今天運動部要成立從14所以我們今天的組織法的修正從14個部提高到15個部那我想基本上我們也贊成說我們運動部的一個成立我們也樂觀其成那我們大家一起來重視我們運動的一個發展台灣運動的一個發展但是我們有看到說今天我剛才提到的就是有關33條的修法"},{"start":5219.907,"end":5242.996,"text":"把局數從70個提高到75個。當然人事長對黃國昌委員的一個詢答的過程中你是提到說你們的立場是傾向於不增加整個局數的一個總數。但是我很遺憾就是說今天的書面報告怎麼沒有把相關的修法的建議寫在書面報告上?"},{"start":5245.242,"end":5263.7,"text":"我跟委員報告就是因為70個的這個天花板我們不打算打開啦但是你的書面報告怎麼沒有把原因講清楚說明白為什麼今天是這麼忽略今天我們的修法的相關的一個版本你們沒有任何的一個的一個"},{"start":5264.861,"end":5265.061,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5293.26,"end":5295.781,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5322.799,"end":5326.723,"text":"目前提議署大概135位那未來運動部他的編制大概300然後提議署的運動署簽名運動署大概100個會有400個"},{"start":5337.162,"end":5340.965,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案》案。"},{"start":5363.303,"end":5364.444,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5381.46,"end":5408.234,"text":"教授或吳教授之等他就可以進來另外還可以用聘用的方式進來就多元禁用因為也希望延攬更多有運動經驗的這一些專家進來我想你都要盡快的做相關的一個規劃包括我們剛才講的新住民基本法裡面未來三級機關成立相關的人力你要如何從這個民間或者是從考試來找相關的人才你知道提前部署"},{"start":5408.934,"end":5410.255,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5441.362,"end":5453.974,"text":"謝謝主席有請人事長請蘇人事長委員早人事長早安大家都早安辛苦了昨天的世界十二強棒球賽你有沒有看"},{"start":5455.851,"end":5467.481,"text":"我沒看在準備今天的打醒之列。這樣子。你跟我一樣我也在開會可是開會的時候在旁邊偷偷滑手機喔。所以6比3台灣贏了韓國。我知道6比3。很好。我們一起關心運動體育。今天我們除了審預算同時在審查行政院組織法跟中央行政機關組織基準法"},{"start":5479.492,"end":5484.974,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．一）行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．一）行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．一）行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．一）"},{"start":5507.944,"end":5508.746,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5522.506,"end":5523.347,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5545.14,"end":5560.211,"text":"所以我想問依據文化基本法成立的行政院跨部會的文化會報蘇仁市長每一次都參與請問您自己認為人事總處在文化會報扮演什麼角色?"},{"start":5561.806,"end":5589.447,"text":"大概陳盧委員所講的嘛我們都是insider所以我們會做兩件事情第一件事情是內部同仁的一個內化就是把文化的這個意涵第二個是在整個信念的項目裡面因為我們有很好的數位學習平台針對所有公共的 拓展對於文化知能的提升可以善用在我們的公共事務的推動上"},{"start":5590.287,"end":5600.834,"text":"第三點就是當文化部他有一些新的業務擴增我們再給予人力的支持事實上是有上個部分您說的非常好都是我過去也在這個位置質詢您要求我們對於人事的訓練人力的培育都要多有文化的思維跟觀點讓我們步步都是文化部透過我們優秀專業的行政"},{"start":5617.624,"end":5630.992,"text":"國務人員能夠來內化跟貫徹您說得非常好但是就預算論預算還有您可以更直接來做的下一頁吳思瑤努力催生了文化禮經2023年上路當時是蘇貞昌前院長"},{"start":5635.695,"end":5638.617,"text":"我們讓台灣16到22歲的年輕世代每人每年有1200點的文化禮金去進行藝文的消費除了要內化讓每個國人都有文化的生活之外也要促進藝文產業的振興發展有了文化幣其實還有我們的這個動資券"},{"start":5658.709,"end":5678.496,"text":"也就是運動類的同樣鼓勵青少年投入運動的消費下頁公務人員是最早有文化幣的您知道嗎就是我們的文康活動會因為第一個字叫文嘛來文康活動是什麼"},{"start":5681.202,"end":5683.323,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5698.69,"end":5718.419,"text":"所以呢,義文活動跟康樂活動兩大類。義文活動還放在前面喔,所以它叫文康活動。可是我們的文康活動的項目呢,都用在康樂類。我都很支持。未婚聯誼我特別支持,因為我自己也很需要。所以各類的活動,康樂類我都支持,但是義文類就是掛蛋。下一頁。"},{"start":5730.455,"end":5754.498,"text":"大家非常重視文康活動所以預算執行率都是百分之百讓我們的德政可以加惠於所有的公務同仁你們的執行率百分之百這是好的非常好下一頁所以花得好也要花得對當我們2024年我們又讓文康費調升了嘛對不對"},{"start":5755.679,"end":5778.977,"text":"兩千比三千是吧?今年開始嘛這是一個大大的大家的福利的提升成長了45%喔所以能不能夠拿文康活動來推廣真正的藝文活動plus我們監審運動部其實藝文活動還有運動的活動我認為都要一起來深化下一頁"},{"start":5780.478,"end":5802.315,"text":"所以說呢我一直之前也提質詢過您要求過您我謝謝你們人事總署發函除了自己人事總署要求自己率先來多辦藝文活動你們也應本席的要求發函給所有的部會請大家在辦文康活動的時候不要在政康樂而親藝文阿有好嗎?"},{"start":5806.735,"end":5832.148,"text":"我跟委員報告大概政府機關的運作大概第一個先行文第二個我們會把它一年的執行的成果會回饋到它的一個績效考核裡面來好因為時間有限我今天在這裡特別提我後面還有國旅卡我下一次再就教於您其實國旅卡是另外一個同樣人事總處主管來下業"},{"start":5833.502,"end":5841.445,"text":"人事總署主管可以來統合所有的公務同仁善用他的國旅卡去從事休閒、旅遊、文化以及運動類。"},{"start":5852.987,"end":5853.227,"text":"三）委員林宜"},{"start":5871.05,"end":5889.455,"text":"您剛剛也講要透過我們有新興的文化組織機關這幾年成立非常多不管是用這個行政法人的或者是用新立的像我們現在就有漫畫博物館要成立吳思瑤催生的台灣建築文化中心也要成立了又包括我們有一個兒童的未來館"},{"start":5892.576,"end":5914.125,"text":"這都是政府大力投入文化建設的時候當然需要文化的人力所以您剛剛說人事總署對於作為文化推手在人才培育上這絕對是重中之重但是我請您另外翻轉一下思維你們對於文康活動就真的讓所有的公共同仁照顧他"},{"start":5915.726,"end":5916.147,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":5937.606,"end":5948.351,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5956.495,"end":5971.834,"text":"讓議文類真正能夠落實包括人事總署包括各部會然後議文活動之外跟上我們最新的行政院組織運動部的成立全民一起來做全民運動就從公務機關開始這樣好不好"},{"start":5975.438,"end":6000.966,"text":"我們會積極來努力就預算、論預算、預算反應政策預算的執行也反映了你們對於政策是不是有認真去推在審議預算的時候我會再提出相關的提案請大家都預先做好準備好不好我們要文化、要運動從公務人員開始步步都是文化部步步也都可以是運動部好一起加油謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":6005.899,"end":6025.39,"text":"好,謝謝。接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢。主席,在場的委員先進。列席的政府金剛市長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生。有請蘇仁市長。請蘇仁市長。"},{"start":6031.124,"end":6060.246,"text":"市長、委員長。我們這一次我要講的是高階專才短期專案協助政府美軍的薪資制度可以解決我們長期的需要讓您參考一下。來回顧一下我在今年也不又上個月的時候呢說問請教您啊跟書發部的次長誰是政府導入AI的組織機關?你認為呢?是誰?則吳龐大就是數位發展部。好是數位發展部他今天不在那成效由誰來管考?"},{"start":6061.445,"end":6061.705,"text":"我發現人種很積極"},{"start":6078.47,"end":6087.792,"text":"美國政府也很積極,他在公共行政部門AI的應用狀況清單。他們有一個報告提到,他們不管是在環境社會福利,醫療保健交通,還有識別以及對退伍軍人的服務和樂島消營等等對於極端氣候。他們一共盤點了包括23個非軍事的機構,發布了200多個AI的使用方案。"},{"start":6100.835,"end":6121.975,"text":"還有700多個AI的應用專正在開發裝中。你覺得人種相較於美國政府,你們有沒有很積極的也在希望協助各部門往AI,所謂的AI就是人工智慧,人工智慧大家所普遍的認知就可以節約或提高人力的運用效能,對不對?剛好人種就是負責人力的運用嘛,所以這也是你們投入AI的原因之一,是不是啊?"},{"start":6122.855,"end":6146.448,"text":"我們最重要的是在訓練每一個公務人員都有AI的DNA也協助他們在業務上能夠精進讓他們在人事效率上應用更高是不是這樣當然好那所以你當我這樣舉例你覺得是不是需要去盤點一下參考一下美國政府在AI應用狀況的清單並研議相對應的業務導入AI的可行性你覺得值不值得參考"},{"start":6147.612,"end":6167.083,"text":"我覺得委員整理這個資料非常棒,我相信數位發展部的數位政府是應該是有責的。好,你還是很認為說,雖然人事總署很積極,但是政府的權責機關在行政院還是出發步。但是我們來看一下,服務型的智慧政府2.0推動計畫,這是不是人總在推的?"},{"start":6169.119,"end":6169.519,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":6188.035,"end":6198.754,"text":"所以你們是不是也是可以剛剛我提供給你參考的美國政府的AI應用狀況清單的可行性,相對應的服務可以納入你們的服務型政府智慧政府2.0的推動計畫?"},{"start":6201.704,"end":6226.35,"text":"你們還是講以人事為主嗎?我委員報告,他那裡有一堆肉粽,肉粽頭是在數位發展部。那我們這個服務型智慧政府,那是人事的,租給其他各個部位。所以你只負責人事部門的?對啦。我們的重點會在人事。但是人事部門,你們業務上只負責人事部門,但是所有政府部門人員的人事制度是你們主導嗎?"},{"start":6227.19,"end":6241.46,"text":"包括他們的薪資結構你們要來幫他們講話嗎是好那我們來看一下下一頁所以我們來看一下我們政府好像有一個跟美國政府一樣高階的技術專才他們是用短期專案來協助政府業務我們看到華爾街日報他一個報導"},{"start":6242.481,"end":6268.661,"text":"美國的國防部要進行一個創新計畫去招募矽谷的高階技術專才以兼職的方式以中高階軍官的身份投入美軍的後備役協助網路安全跟數據分析很有趣美國的國防部他們的用人制度很靈活他們有可以從民間挖專才以後備役的方式他們有國民兵有這些的相關的制度那您覺得如果是用這個方式包括科技業以外物流、航空"},{"start":6269.562,"end":6297.573,"text":"你覺得我們台灣政府可不可以參考美軍去招募高階技術專才一短期專案來協助政府導入AI及協助網路安全和數據分析呢?我覺得有機會因為在數化部底下有一個資安院那資安院是一個行政法人行政法人他可以比較靈活的去害這些人進來好所以在你任總的立場來講其實你認為給數化部當時在人事制度上就留有這樣的空間讓他去運用對嗎?"},{"start":6298.84,"end":6320.688,"text":"那你覺得他目前有充分的運用嗎?他有在運用一些資安相關領域的一個study好 那我們來看一下但是我們要看人總啊自己本身你們自己發的齁我在7月的時候呢我問了一個說相同的能力之下心事大於跟業界相仿才能保有優秀的公務員我還記得我那時候說的"},{"start":6321.548,"end":6349.445,"text":"人總過去的思考都是說公務人員來互相比較我要提高這個人員的應用的這個機會留用他我把他跟其他公務員的薪資待遇相對拉高我那時候跟您提過這是不夠的因為這些優優人才不是在公務機關互相比較他是跟民間部門跟他同樣技術能力的人的薪酬來互相比較你同不同意他們是這樣想非常同意好所以呢你看你們人總在提到說公務機關的工程人員"},{"start":6350.405,"end":6364.95,"text":"只缺林卜不易所以你們就在7月31號得到行政院答覆你們工程裡面的待遇提升方增加了專業加給3000塊然後在工程獎金的留任獎金上從5500提高到16萬這是人總去爭取的嘛是不是"},{"start":6366.716,"end":6367.236,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":6385.988,"end":6390.969,"text":"十四點五 那就對了來我問你真正但是我們來看一下實況上媒體的報導不只你們要去跟民間部門搶財啊七月他就跟公務門搶財搶什麼人搶土木專財年薪兩百萬配車包租屋他加倍的行情他們認為什麼如果說政府的標案多他們業界缺人他直接跟你行政機關挖啊他所謂有行政機關更好啊你覺得目前工程人員的待遇提升方案能夠追得上業界嗎"},{"start":6414.014,"end":6433.983,"text":"你們剛剛提出的這個方案能留得住專才嗎?有沒有辦法?我跟委員坦白的報告啦。這個紐開了會讓這一些流進來的土木工程的人員會更多啦。不然是這樣啦,是紐不紐啦。你也不可能去把民間的都收到啦。堅守你讓人家民間紐他,差不多啦。你要把民間紐啦,那麼困難啦。我們來看一下。再講一個。勞動檢查人員的低薪跟環境惡劣,你看。"},{"start":6441.806,"end":6464.78,"text":"這裡媒體也報導囉官方訓練出師的職安專家都成為民間高薪挖角所以勞動部爭取加薪也補不滿啦近5年有300個勞檢員離開因為呢約聘、低薪、工作環境惡劣業界開高薪挖角根據你們自己提出的在今年的3月得到行政院得到的風險工程會你們呢把它提高到了5000跟3000你們認為這是編定的勞動檢查人員執行風險工作費的支給表當中能留得住嗎?"},{"start":6473.575,"end":6494.114,"text":"我覺得政府機關有時候在挑不可能一下子衝下去收斷嘛你就收斷把那個紀律落差但是今天遇到這種狀況給你再參考一下美軍的做法這也是我跟國防部了解的美軍的新興制度他們美國是怎麼說他們美國的軍官的償備薪資呢他用給大學畢業生全部全國去比PR83吶"},{"start":6498.398,"end":6514.843,"text":"則是說他們國防部要找的大學畢業的軍官來任軍官的是以全國大學畢業生的就職的行情的前面怎麼樣前面的PR83就是最前面的17%很高喔如果是士兵那就跟相同學歷能力的是90%啊"},{"start":6516.553,"end":6540.874,"text":"所以我要告訴你有一個觀念我們過去呢假如說今天國防部他要去挖一個人一個技術的軍官在民間的不管是資訊的飛行的我們想說啊這個邊界是少校我用少校的最高性來挖你你覺得挖得動嗎如果他們去航空業去挖我跟你講美軍不是這樣挖美軍不是他說我這個技術人員我要挖你"},{"start":6541.889,"end":6541.929,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":6567.862,"end":6571.745,"text":"如果你的專長能力在美軍是要怎麼樣?中將還是上將?才能挖得動你?"},{"start":6575.12,"end":6603.426,"text":"你了解我的意思嗎?請你簡短回答,因為時間的關係。我年紀老啊,應該挖不動的啦。好,你了解我的意思沒有?思維的方向不是以我們公務機關來做比較,要以人家在民間的薪酬的水準來對應來挖稅,最後只有三個要求啦。第一,請嚴育談點美國政府AI應用狀況,請他們將具可行性的相對應的業務呢,納入你的服務型智慧政府2.0的推動計畫,一個月內提供一個書面報告給本席,可以嗎?"},{"start":6607.953,"end":6631.21,"text":"另外,仿照美軍招募高階技術專才以短期專案協助正為導入AI及協助網路安全數據分析的可行性,也提出一個參考的方案。可以嗎?我都幫你把資料找好了。最後,長期缺額的單位能夠參考美軍的薪金制度,來有效填補缺額並增加續任意願。這個就是你們需要的,這可以做吧?"},{"start":6633.035,"end":6633.415,"text":"主席有請任市長"},{"start":6662.056,"end":6665.258,"text":"委員長我看了您的報告也聽了剛剛的詢答我直接做個結論我覺得民進黨對不起也瞧不起新住民禁法補償條例拖拖拉拉民進黨在欺負原住民"},{"start":6690.839,"end":6715.606,"text":"新住民發展署你也拖拖拉拉在欺負新住民何其傲慢的政府我先來講第一件事為什麼我說你們在欺負新住民現在我們政府要成立運動部嘛對不對運動部成立我支持啊好事啊可是按照中央行政機關組織法規定的部的總數是幾個"},{"start":6719.301,"end":6734.393,"text":"所以現在用滿了對不對所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織法增加一個部嘛對不對但其實有另外一個做法啊另外一個做法是什麼如果不調整總和的另外一個做法是什麼"},{"start":6735.455,"end":6751.579,"text":"就是去調整某些部把他併就撤銷一些部嘛廢掉一些部嘛如果是採第二種方式我想請問哈要廢掉教育部嗎還是要廢掉經濟部還是要廢掉財政部還是要廢掉文化部你為什麼不是採取所謂的廢其他的部來爭運動部的方式為什麼"},{"start":6759.349,"end":6782.5,"text":"因為我們有評估過了這個有期執行上的一個困難當然困難嘛根本不可能的事情嘛你今天把原來的部會廢掉那原來部會業務怎麼辦你光移撥的過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響變動的成本極大所以不可能是廢部成部啦不是嗎沒錯吧"},{"start":6785.523,"end":6791.965,"text":"當然啊!我也認為不可能啊!很抱歉喔!這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦!請問你喔!新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼?"},{"start":6805.208,"end":6828.536,"text":"七月十二號通過之後我們會成立專責的三級機關是啊 要成立專責三級機關請問成立專責三級機關我們現在中央行政組織機制人把我們的第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數的上限是多少七十 七十個 又滿了嗎目前滿了 滿了啊 來來來 你們打算怎麼做"},{"start":6829.929,"end":6856.525,"text":"我直接講啦 剛剛巡導已經講了啦這基本上齁 是同步在進行啦第一個就是內政部移民署他有成立一個新住民的一個籌備處籌備處 你都能講內政部成立一個運動部籌備處 然後不要改部會上線我直接問你嘛 你剛已經回答啦 你沒打算打破這70個上線啊 不是嗎是對啊 那我想請問你 你不打算打破這70個上線 請問你告訴我"},{"start":6858.905,"end":6867.232,"text":"要廢掉哪個部?哪個署?哪個司?哪個局?要廢掉哪個三級機關?你的評估跟我講你不動上限嘛!因為不動上限你就非得撤掉一個啊!不然就併掉一個啊!不是嗎?"},{"start":6884.329,"end":6906.701,"text":"我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡,任市長。我說真的,今天真的在叫你在那邊為難你啦。今天主席今天說真的邀的人也都不對啦。今天邀的人,待會兒我會跟你講為什麼不對,我先把這邏輯問題跟你講清楚。為什麼沒辦法?你今天裁掉任何三級機關,它的三級機關的業務,就有要移波的問題。"},{"start":6908.254,"end":6930.894,"text":"那你光研議你要裁掉哪個三級機關就像你剛剛講的你在籌備處兩三年你都研議不出來啦你研議 光研議要裁掉哪個所謂的那個籌備機關你就這樣子把這事情擱著啦那今天如果照你的邏輯你剛剛也講啊你為什麼不要打破機關上限是因為你不應該膨脹元額嘛對不對盡量不要膨脹元額嘛不是嗎你剛剛回答的啊"},{"start":6943.884,"end":6967.202,"text":"很好啊!非常好啊!就是我幫你翻白話就你前面的白話文可能遇到我在稍微謹慎一點你就文言文你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹啊我跟你講我沒有反對這個原則喔因為這實際上也是我最大的困惑因為我以前也在政府機關工作過當時民進黨說啊這政府這個機關太多要裁撤精簡政府啊"},{"start":6968.138,"end":6979.015,"text":"政府還真的繼續做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在沒有,你講少爺不得了啊。這個機關成立,那個機關成立一大堆。但有的有具效成立我贊成。可是我今天就跟你講標準的問題嘛。"},{"start":6981.294,"end":6992.279,"text":"你今天擺明非常鮮活的例子又在現在的狀況你對運動部你就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、緣額不應膨脹的標準存在阿我就問你嘛現在的那個運動發展署緣額你剛剛講過135人嘛對不對然後變成體育部分年階段要增加到400人嘛對不對"},{"start":7004.861,"end":7026.192,"text":"對阿 四百人阿 橫空就增加兩百多人阿 預算就兩百億嘛 那我就跟你講你今天為什麼今天說違反了你剛剛講預算不要膨脹 人額不要膨脹的原因是因為運動不重要嘛 我接受這個論點啦 我接受阿可是同樣的狀況你就跟我講新住民就不重要阿 不是嗎 一模一樣的邏輯"},{"start":7028.922,"end":7056.23,"text":"我跟你講你沒有講過新住民不重要但你的做法跟民進黨政府的做法就告訴你新住民不重要這不是你講的文字上的問題那我再跟你講剛剛我也看到在尋答的過程當中我也看到新聞說這個賴清德總統賴清德總統這個要這個延緩所謂的這個新住民發展署你剛剛否認嘛賴清德總統沒有這個要求嘛對不對 沒有沒有"},{"start":7057.145,"end":7064.374,"text":"可是我要講的是即便他沒這個要求你們的做法也蠻像今天耐心的總有這個要求啊"},{"start":7065.677,"end":7094.437,"text":"我只問你一件事嘛請問新住民發展署什麼時候會成立你覺得需要多久時間在不動你的所謂機關上線情況之下我剛才已經在黃國昌委員執行裡面有答應了我們會行文給內政部請內政部加速我告訴你我就是要跟你講這個問題你答不出時間然後你跟他行文內政部來來來這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方啦今天單位有內政部嗎"},{"start":7096.229,"end":7101.056,"text":"我連要問內政部今天都沒辦法問啦!我想請問內政部跟你在那邊當場協調都沒辦法!有問內政部嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":7105.543,"end":7132.357,"text":"今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法還有今天還有今天我們賣玉珍我們民眾黨的案子在裡面欸有涉及新住民的問題在裡面欸行政院秘書長不到內政部也不來我今天說你們瞧不起新住民對不起新住民到底哪一點說錯了完全沒說錯啊你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民啊"},{"start":7133.379,"end":7147.393,"text":"我還是跟人事長講你在這個地方我必須先說一句話人事長本來就是在你的機關本位你就要守住預算的原額編制你就是不希望政府膨脹這是你的本分沒錯啦所以我沒有怪你"},{"start":7148.427,"end":7177.352,"text":"但今天光讓你在這邊當箭靶子我就覺得就是對新住民非常的不尊重因為很多問題你還得行文內政部去回答你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清清楚我還是說一句話啦今天最快的方式真的表達對新住民的支持認同的話你就比照運動部運動部是增加一個部會他是增加一個三級機關層次還是差很多如果一個部會重要可以增加預算緣和可以擴大倍增"},{"start":7178.883,"end":7187.988,"text":"為什麼新住民發展署也有三級機關為什麼今天你要卡東卡西到現在也講不出來你的籌備書要籌備十年嗎以上 謝謝好 謝謝陸委員 謝謝蘇務人事長接下來有請莊委員瑞雄發言謝謝莊委員 有請我們人事長"},{"start":7208.243,"end":7226.181,"text":"委員老張人長其實我倒會覺得你的職務跟其他的部會不一樣一個政府其實追究的是一個有效能的一個政府倒不是說人一直擴張然後大而無當"},{"start":7227.455,"end":7229.996,"text":"〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":7253.547,"end":7253.567,"text":"議員吳沛"},{"start":7270.855,"end":7286.006,"text":"那這樣到時候草草定案全新的一個部會變成到最後是換湯不換藥大家都坐白宮可是我也要讓你看一下整個運動部的籌備這些大事記裡面你看這個113年6月18號體育運動政策白皮書跟體育及運動發展部的一個規劃論壇有中部廠113年6月21號是南部廠113年7月11號是東部廠"},{"start":7300.083,"end":7307.235,"text":"然後113年的7月15號是北部場8月15號是整個行政院"},{"start":7308.775,"end":7330.07,"text":"會中院長宣布將成立體育跟運動發展部的籌備小組。到了9月9號,體育運動發展部諮詢小組的第一次會議。9月19號,第二次的一個諮詢小組的一個會議。9月23號,就是第三次。我為什麼去提這一些?就是說,雖然有這樣這些會議,我還是覺得這都很慘。"},{"start":7336.65,"end":7365.785,"text":"都非常非常的一個倉促啦。就當然各個政黨我相信很多的委員都希望說有一個運動部的一個成立。我以為你覺得是升格,但是行政院說不是升格,不是輸在你,你要怎麼說輸在你,你就選出來就好了。但重點,重點,你好不容易經過多次的會議凝聚這次的一個組織法,一個組織法。所以我要請教你的就是說,這個討論過程當中,你人事總書家你到底有去參悟嗎?"},{"start":7367.839,"end":7380.451,"text":"你提供什麼樣的意見嗎?這才是重點啊。你有什麼有啊有啊,不然去啊,人家在說什麼我們聽什麼而已啊。你總是要有你的意見啦。啊重點你也知道我要問什麼,你這個屁股到底是怎麼生出來的?"},{"start":7382.16,"end":7401.772,"text":"這400個人大概他是分階段禁用啦因為說這個新的運動部的一個組成我們希望援引這些有運動賽事經驗的人到公部門來所以我們在任用資格上面也有開放就比照教育人員任用條例讓他可以進來那是一個教育人員任用條例進國發會相關機關有在用第二個就是用聘用的"},{"start":7409.497,"end":7409.697,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":7430.779,"end":7441.606,"text":"一百三十四、一百三十五差一個。好,那你這樣整個運動部你說要四百?這樣差幾個你知道嗎?兩百六十五?兩百六十五,但是那不是一檔喔,他要分幾個檔要補開的。分幾個檔?你前面如果說他的權責劃分清楚,你意思就是說,沒關係你運動部讓他成立齁,那第一天,第一年出頭就好。"},{"start":7453.214,"end":7465.562,"text":"第三條條文修正草案．吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．吳沛憶等21人擬具:「"},{"start":7478.759,"end":7479.119,"text":"五）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":7506.271,"end":7507.111,"text":"五）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":7536.701,"end":7537.461,"text":"徐富癸等21人擬具"},{"start":7557.113,"end":7557.694,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":7576.568,"end":7596.62,"text":"委員報告啦,那些中心那些人要補比較快,但是你若說無人員齁,我們還要提缺啊,提議行政缺,還要提缺,還要去科技,還要進來,它會有一兩年的一個時間差嘛,你若運動中心,產業中心,那些不用科技的組織嘛,那些直接就過來,那些人在補充比較快啦。我告訴你,院長。"},{"start":7599.702,"end":7604.453,"text":"你還聽不懂我的意思。我的意思就是說,你甚至很堅持跟他講說,你的人也沒那麼多,你的五十個就夠了。"},{"start":7609.909,"end":7610.049,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":7632.282,"end":7632.702,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":7642.967,"end":7652.493,"text":"我當一個人事長我讓整個政府產生很大的一個效能又可以節省那麼多的一個公帑有什麼不對?所以我的意思是你既然參與了啊既然你認為要給400個 安捏風雪我就有疑慮是這個問題我 我委員沒想這三百個加一百個不是用花的因為從他的執掌組織執掌幾個師幾個科"},{"start":7667.462,"end":7681.648,"text":"要編制多少人來推動哪些業務?主要以業務為主體,業務然後再攤出來,算算看要三百多要出來。業務一個計算的公式。那你幾年要曝光?你大了啦?你認為多少?多久?四年?那應該是新的部要提出來他的一個禁用計畫,我們再來全力協助他。所以你認為這幾年他們的業務就是很少的囉?"},{"start":7697.292,"end":7700.393,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":7722.578,"end":7736.027,"text":"國務令委員的行政效率,這是你任總努力的一個目標嘛。我去看喔,你像AI關鍵能力的一個培養,連任總署你們透過一等的公務員學習平台,這個都有些成果。可是你注意把它看,大家去都在衝啊,你看看,你簡單看一看。你的monitor應該就有了,大家去都英文而已。"},{"start":7742.478,"end":7762.503,"text":"如果AI那麼多的一個功能啊,你去把它看,你光是英文的選讀課程就25萬人次,認證時數高達26萬小時,代表我們公立人都很喜歡這個平台,這是好事。但是呢,我比較擔心的就是說,你一些新的政策跟可能的方向可能就卡在這個。"},{"start":7763.663,"end":7764.764,"text":"委員報告,今年7月開始,我們有6大類的課程。"},{"start":7787.057,"end":7787.978,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":7808.752,"end":7817.814,"text":"謝謝莊委員、謝謝蘇仁市長。稍後在政委員天才詢答完畢後的休息文中,現在請麥委員御正發言。謝謝主席。有請仁氏行政那個市長。"},{"start":7837.669,"end":7859.992,"text":"蘇貞市長市長好。我想請教一下,不管是新住民、原住民,包含你,我們是不是媽媽生的?是嗎?一定是的。對。我們是不是人?"},{"start":7861.465,"end":7869.192,"text":"一定是的。所以是人的話我們是不是我們要在對話的時候是我們是眼睛看著對方?是不是?這個在上次委員執行的時候有繼續演講。我問你是不是?是。所以我們狗和人對話眼睛看哪裡?對不起我沒有養狗。你沒有養狗但是你有這個理念對不對?"},{"start":7889.163,"end":7889.904,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":7908.305,"end":7927.026,"text":"當初協商的時候我們三黨達成共識一年之後要成立所以呢結果呢行政院跟內政部說現在先成立新住民發展署籌備處工作小組明年掛牌成立新住民發展"},{"start":7928.268,"end":7937.878,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 案 議員吳�"},{"start":7939.982,"end":7961.589,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這內政部他有從那個移民署的新住民的相關的領域的這些同仁還有再加其他的業務他成立一個籌備處好但是依照中央政府機構總原而法第五條第三頁第三項的規定"},{"start":7962.609,"end":7977.808,"text":"各機關應章、時機、元額數及人力列型編入年度總預算,但是我們翻了移民署114年的預算書,完全沒有相關的作業計劃,請教我們的市長。"},{"start":7981.512,"end":8000.148,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8006.333,"end":8016.264,"text":"資源的方式。第四（如果是用一波的沒有法源依據怎麼波。第五（如果是用資源的這樣的長期資源人事長你覺得合適嗎?"},{"start":8022.877,"end":8039.078,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為整個籌備處的一個組織機關在內政部那至於明年明年如果要掛牌嘛假設是明年的七月掛牌嘛會牽涉到預算 假設但是這個依據法源在哪裡"},{"start":8041.964,"end":8053.115,"text":"我跟委員澄清一下因為現在在籌備處直接在執行的因為在移民署有一個移民事務組60個60位他是以這一個60位為班底在進行籌備的相關業務"},{"start":8060.908,"end":8061.208,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8075.247,"end":8078.79,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案。netesi"},{"start":8101.569,"end":8118.76,"text":"發文給移民署看他們如何提出新住民發展署的組織法才能成立新住民發展署的籌備處所以之前在2021年2月18號行政院將成立數位發展"},{"start":8119.48,"end":8121.401,"text":"立法院三讀通過組織法法案之後才成立數位發展部的籌備處所以我要求我們的人事長你要跟內政部我們的部長劉思芳說不能這樣的違法行政"},{"start":8141.212,"end":8142.733,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8158.442,"end":8159.503,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8178.263,"end":8181.046,"text":"信心到現在剛才很多委員在質詢信心連我們有提出新住民組織法但是你連提都沒有提叫做信心嗎我跟委員報告一下因為內政部很重視這個所以他們很認真你要給他足夠的時間去把這個數的功能把它詳細規劃嘛"},{"start":8199.485,"end":8201.507,"text":"我跟委員報告這是我們內部有在評估只是現在還在作業不方便講"},{"start":8222.307,"end":8240.48,"text":"好,希望你今天講的到明年我們的新住民發展組會生出來,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝麥委員,謝謝蘇仁市長。那麼剛剛主席已經宣告,在鄭委員天才發言後,我們就休息五分鐘。那麼有請鄭委員天才發言。我剛剛已經宣告了。"},{"start":8252.672,"end":8273.449,"text":"主席各位委員有請這個人事長有請蘇人士還有那個教育部請教育部的哪一位防副署長還是那個防副署長請防副署長委員長好我就直接問人事長好了那個這個運動發展部運動部"},{"start":8278.882,"end":8279.502,"text":"五月份 現在是"},{"start":8303.337,"end":8303.777,"text":"委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8331.282,"end":8353.709,"text":"現在要增加一個運動發展部而且還要修中央行政機關組織基準法第29條本來14個部要增加為15個部為什麼當初沒有去考量維持14個部然後去調整某個部"},{"start":8354.873,"end":8381.923,"text":"成為委員會比如說早期就是這樣曾經有科技部對不對是後來國科會因為那個部有限嘛所以就把它又改回來國科會嘛所以為什麼沒有考量這個部分都有評估過都有評估過好這個當然你無法決定了這個部分好我們看"},{"start":8384.472,"end":8406.037,"text":"這個新住民基本法剛講的新住民基本法8月12號公布了還沒有施行這裡面特別提到要成立這個三級機關也就是級或者屬那現在就涉及到這個屬啊級啊三級機關70個違憲到底你要改為71"},{"start":8413.932,"end":8441.869,"text":"還是要維持70個現在有一個方向了嗎?就是70個不變動不變動所以那14個可以變成15個不這邊就會產生這些疑問了好這個今天個人資料保護法今天在經濟委員會也在談這個這裡面也提到要成立"},{"start":8443.086,"end":8459.139,"text":"委員會成立委員會個人資料保護委員會按照那個籌備處的報告是說根據憲法法庭憲判是13號所以要成立這個個資會委員會事實上"},{"start":8465.317,"end":8481.46,"text":"這個香港法庭他就提國家亦有義務與法律積極建制適當之組織也沒有說一定要這個二級機關也沒有說一定要二級機關但是你們現在就是弄成二級機關"},{"start":8483.308,"end":8483.368,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":8499.389,"end":8500.49,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8529.454,"end":8529.874,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8546.567,"end":8550.228,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．一）行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．一）行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案．"},{"start":8570.032,"end":8587.165,"text":"一百一十四明年的預算來已經是一百四十五億四千多萬所以希望行政院人事行政組織能夠支持一律法院的附帶結議何時增加好不好會跟人民會來討論好謝謝"},{"start":8592.007,"end":8592.027,"text":"委員趙"},{"start":8620.831,"end":8622.493,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8642.672,"end":8654.201,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修"},{"start":8668.607,"end":8696.661,"text":"我們何其偉大啊這麼小的地方啊不會這麼多啊其實部會應該要縮減啦組改組改越改越肥啊一直減高啦當然都很好啊越來越更多的部長更多的主委不過大家都搞不清楚老百姓搞不清楚Who is who啊來我第一個問題想再請教一下這個任市長我們都很關心的啦大家都關心啊"},{"start":8697.881,"end":8700.842,"text":"明年的五月以後能不能全體放假啦?"},{"start":8700.842,"end":8727.427,"text":"老生再問一下啦。可以嗎?我委員報告齁,這個議題齁,我們正正的擺,有姚珊相關部會來。開會後,大家還沒有很圓滿的一個共識。你感覺在會議裡面,感覺上大家往一起放假的方向走,有沒有?"},{"start":8728.817,"end":8745.565,"text":"有沒有這個味道出來?有沒有?因為那不是我主持的我不知道啊你有參加嗎?我沒有參加因為我請我們副理事長主持但是我要委員報告因為這裡面牽涉到一個我看到的一個議題後來會一記錄到我這裡我內心也感受到"},{"start":8746.653,"end":8756.042,"text":"提到那個偏鄉小孩子的授教權的問題這個坦白講對我內心是會有一點衝擊所以應該要放假嗎?還是這樣?不應該放假,再放到他們上課的時間就又退了五月以後不用放假就對了"},{"start":8761.772,"end":8777.739,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條"},{"start":8792.625,"end":8820.536,"text":"欸!他們一個事業單位喔!你們人事總署管太多了吧!他們要對員工照顧福利!比如說啦!我們現在台土書!台銀、土銀、輸出論銀行!生育給小孩鼓勵生育不是嗎?你是要給多少錢你知道嗎?五千塊!啊你是要飯工股喔!燕灣工股喔!兆豐多少錢你知道嗎?12萬!"},{"start":8823.271,"end":8827.623,"text":"張華英行審議第三條條文修正草案案的三十六萬?對阿!我都主張審議第三條條文修正草案要一百萬啦!"},{"start":8829.259,"end":8845.224,"text":"啊 這個你沒在管你沒在管喔 這個東西他們有賺的錢他們給員工福利好一點啊 然後人事都說 喔 那主啊都人事長都說不行了因為什麼單一新婦啊我哥你都聽不懂你都說不行了 都說單一新婦你都說不行了 我特別來這裡就是"},{"start":8855,"end":8860.202,"text":"我昨天才在財政委員會,他們都說主要是人市長有意見,說這是單立信奉,哦,你很大勒,人家賺了錢,人家要照顧員工都賣三天勒,照顧員工賣三天,啊給員工那個伙食好一點也賣三天,都賣三天,為什麼,你要講一個問題嗎?啊,委員報告一下勒,用職工福利金可以來處理那些,"},{"start":8880.769,"end":8882.93,"text":"市長,我跟你說啦!從上層董事長、台銀董事長、土銀董事長嚇到他們的工會!"},{"start":8902.719,"end":8902.959,"text":"委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8918.83,"end":8925.413,"text":"我今天特別來這裡問你這個問題。我公開質詢你。你好好地檢討這個事情。大家都認為一個國營的事業單位,他們要照顧員工是好事。大家必嘛齁。我喜歡工股,結果是台土輸。"},{"start":8939.445,"end":8940.106,"text":"五（委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":8955.523,"end":8971.596,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文"},{"start":8977.984,"end":8990.634,"text":"沒有,我跟委員報告,那是應該因為對那個不清楚,應該本身有一個職工福利金裡面條例,第二條那個可以去運用,這件事我會請財政部回來開會,大家講清楚要怎麼去進行。"},{"start":8996.678,"end":8997.639,"text":"現在我們休息五分鐘。"},{"start":9336.601,"end":9360.588,"text":"我們繼續開會請列席機關代表請回座那麼請會場的工作人員也請回復到原來的位置那接下來我們有請鄭委員鄭前發言鄭鄭前鄭鄭前委員不在我們請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱洪孟凱委員不在我們有請郭育秦委員郭育秦郭育秦委員不在我們請王委員洪威發言"},{"start":9368.725,"end":9371.616,"text":"謝謝主席。我請教,請我們人事長。請說人事長。"},{"start":9375.941,"end":9403.69,"text":"委員早委員早今天其實主要是我們的行政院組織法還有中央政府的組織基準法這次主要是配合未來運動部的一個升格所以我們要把14個部把它增加為15個部另外我想請教一下就是我們現在的新住民基本法事實上已經通過了"},{"start":9405.21,"end":9425.704,"text":"在新住民基本法裡面也特別的就是說政府我們中央政府應該去設置有關於統籌新住民事務的三級單位可是我們在這一次的我們的這個不管是行政院組織法或者中央這個行政機關的組織基準法裡面"},{"start":9427.805,"end":9428.826,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":9442.41,"end":9464.045,"text":"我謝謝委員給我這個機會說明一下事實上從大宴通過這個新住民要成立三級機關這樣的一個法案之後內政部他已經成立一個新住民的一個籌備處那籌備處的成員主要就是他移民署底下會有一個大概60個人左右的他"},{"start":9465.306,"end":9466.067,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":9490.558,"end":9517.548,"text":"我上次的理解我上次的理解是我們到現在為止行政院沒有針對這個事情來跨部會做這個開會嗎內政部他內部已經開過三次會他已經有針對成立三級機關他已經有開過三次會他要去協調那個業務分工嘛業務分工之後到時候人員要移撥或者要增加多少人我們人總就會介入去幫忙他那所以現在基本上還是會在"},{"start":9518.288,"end":9520.309,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9546.957,"end":9555.101,"text":"我跟委員報告大概今天會後我們會詢問給內政部請他針對這個籌備處的一個進行能夠速度加快那同樣的我也會打電話跟內政部拜託加快處理這就拜託了因為吼就是因為我們在新住民基本法事實上已經通過已經通過實施那在這樣的一個狀況之下因為我們比如說我們現在看到當然"},{"start":9573.331,"end":9595.592,"text":"有關於運動部的升格還有相關的這個署的成立其實在立法院裡面我看到部分黨派的委員事上都是支持的所以我覺得這個今天的修法應該是沒有什麼問題但是呢就也有人跟我反映可問題是我們那個新住民基本法已經都通過實施了為什麼感覺好像八字還沒有一撇啦"},{"start":9598.835,"end":9598.875,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":9614.145,"end":9619.706,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9635.731,"end":9638.612,"text":"主席,讓我多一點時間,因為現在川普上來,其實大家最關心的就是他有一個什麼政府效率委員會"},{"start":9659.199,"end":9659.259,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶"},{"start":9673.936,"end":9673.976,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":9692.506,"end":9716.705,"text":"其實我們不打算去把那個天花板打開啦因為我覺得一個組織的運動當然就是變成無日無之的這樣子增加是不是你一直用家法思考我覺得對國家的整個組織運動也不是好事這個我其實是同意但是我還是爭取積極爭取新庶民的三級單位要趕快的成立好不好我會後會馬上詢問給內政部請他加數好謝謝謝謝委員王委員謝謝蘇委員事長"},{"start":9722.549,"end":9742.814,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員,楊瓊英委員不在。請林倩琦委員,林倩琦委員不在。請羅明才委員,羅明才委員不在。請蘇清泉委員,蘇清泉委員不在。請葉元之委員,葉元之委員不在。請陳培鈺委員,陳培鈺陳培鈺"},{"start":9752.962,"end":9754.283,"text":"林委員剛剛在現場是吧?不好意思。"},{"start":9770.967,"end":9784.177,"text":"好,那我們把林培育委員不在。好,那麼現在登記發言委員都唱名完畢。剛剛林倩琦委員在現場。我唱名的時候可能沒有聽到您在場。好,現在請林委員倩琦發言。"},{"start":9789.021,"end":9803.905,"text":"主席還有各位立院同仁相關單位的同仁們大家好因為運動方面我們都一直很關心那因為自己本身也是選手所以在運動部的這個組織法我們知道今天是這個林委員你要邀請誰上台請輸入人事長"},{"start":9813.359,"end":9813.379,"text":"委員長"},{"start":9833.616,"end":9835.658,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9853.417,"end":9876.576,"text":"因為我本身是原住民,我們也知道在奧運今年的獎項,原住民的比例也佔的蠻高的。我們知道賴總統其實在原住民的這個區塊也投注了一些未來希望能夠再推動的資源。這個部分我就希望能夠先做一個提醒,因為目前這個資源在原民相關的單位。"},{"start":9877.617,"end":9878.638,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案件》案。"},{"start":9906.853,"end":9925.85,"text":"這是我往下一個單項協會問題之前我要先做一個嫁接跟平台還沒有到這邊但是也就是說我們其實有提出一些相關的案在原住民的聘用比例上應該要有一定的比例當然這個是比較在署裡面的這個問題但是我們也請這個院裡面能夠在這個區塊幫我們做一個思考"},{"start":9930.554,"end":9955.531,"text":"至於這個行政架構上我這邊也很期待能夠有一個在體育運動部下面能夠有一個原住民相關的專屬單位來做處理我們可以做一個思考當然未來我們可能在法規上還有在這個提案上大家有機會做個討論但是如果有這樣一個機會那也請行政院這邊來支持"},{"start":9957.612,"end":9957.792,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9977.034,"end":10002.687,"text":"謝謝蘇仁市長,請回答,請黃副署長。黃副,那我想這個問題應該很多人都提過,那我們在巴黎或者是我們在很多的這個交流上我們都提到那個運動部如何跟單項協會的這個不僅是共存而是在政治不介入體育的前提下我們怎麼讓單項協會比較正常化,我想這個部分我不知道在"},{"start":10003.908,"end":10004.288,"text":"徐富癸等17人擬具"},{"start":10027.751,"end":10028.991,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":10053.999,"end":10054.46,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":10066.059,"end":10089.652,"text":"謝謝副座所以我這邊還是很強力的提醒你們如何在這個制度裡面在人的部分跟錢的部分做一個處理跟控管然後這個作為選手的我我們都知道整個單項協會一直到下面然後包括比賽的消失或者是比賽的狀況這個我們都整個體系知道很清楚但是除了你們有專責那如何在制度層面上能夠處理這個問題我想這都是我們應有的責任"},{"start":10092.654,"end":10098.236,"text":"謝謝林委員,謝謝房副署長。所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束。委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。"},{"start":10122.386,"end":10141.741,"text":"接下來進行討論事項第一、二案法案之審查由於討論事項第三、四案人種相關預算案本日僅進行詢答所以與一、二案法案審查無關之列席人員可先行離席。"},{"start":10142.962,"end":10166.201,"text":"另外,為利於日後預算案進行審查。針對人總預算相關提案,請於11月21日下午5時前提出,於時不予受理。特別提醒大家,並請各機關於提案處理前利用時間先與提案委員進行溝通協調,必利後續審查。"},{"start":10170.524,"end":10187.949,"text":"在後續進行討論事項前針對先前黃國昌委員所提會議詢問本席之答覆以及羅志強委員尋及列席機關部分做如下處理一"},{"start":10188.874,"end":10217.63,"text":"本周議程安排由於行政院院會固定於周四舉行由秘書長主責考量行政院組織法修正草案若由秘書長列席報告勢必安排於本周三審查為宜聯動的運動部組織法審查則需安排於周四然而主責的教育部又因教育文化委員會安排本周是同日審查教育部預算如此安排"},{"start":10218.49,"end":10241.238,"text":"是將造成教育部部長難以兼顧預算審查及法案審查。顧於協調後教育文化委員會周氏排審教育部預算本委員會周三排審運動部組織法周氏排審行政院組織法"},{"start":10242.54,"end":10269.799,"text":"那麼至於今日會議邀請列席機關名單如開會通知單所示未有內政部以上說明均列入公報記錄有關行政院秘書長來函指派書人市長代表列席之公文引誦本會委員那麼我們現在先暫時休息我們再進行後續的"},{"start":10271.237,"end":10299.567,"text":"好 那麼現在先在休息之前我們先進行討論事項請議事人員宣讀提案條文宣讀時間大約一分半那如果有修正動議亦一併宣讀宣讀後稍作片刻休息及進行討論為利於討論審查法案時請主要列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座那先請列席宣讀條文那先請現在開始變更座位謝謝"},{"start":10301.941,"end":10323.703,"text":"討論事項第一案行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案行政院提案第三條除徵訂第15款為15運動部其餘未修正委員徐富癸等委員吳沛憶等委員林一景等委員鄭天才等委員陳冠廷等及委員范雲等提案第三條均同行政院提案"},{"start":10325.182,"end":10341.562,"text":"第二案中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案行政院考試院提案第二十九條除第二項修正為部之總數以十五個為縣外其餘未修正"},{"start":10342.83,"end":10354.317,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團委員吳沛憶等委員林一景等委員鄭天才等及委員陳冠廷等提案第29條軍同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第33條"},{"start":10358.078,"end":10382.494,"text":"除第四項莫具修正為以75個違憲外其餘未修正。行政院考試院提案第39條第一項未修正第二項修正為本法中華民國99年2月3日修正公佈條文111年1月19日修正公佈條文及某年某月某日修正之條文其施行日期由行政院定之。"},{"start":10383.594,"end":10396.729,"text":"委員吳沛憶等、委員林一景等及委員鄭天才等提案第39條軍統行政院提案,宣讀完畢。好,我們就先稍事休息,等候委員到場。"},{"start":10751.29,"end":10776.827,"text":"現在繼續開會目前我們討論事項今天處理第一案及第二案主席在這裡做一個宣告討論事項第一案是并案審查行政院組織法第三條條文修正案另外我們第一案在這裡先做一個說明因為今天的第一案有七個版本的提案那是針對行政院組織法第三條第一案只有一個條文"},{"start":10778.1,"end":10790.728,"text":"那第一案的部分呢有包括行政院考試院函請審議的中央行政機關組織基準法第29條及第39條那麼另外呢有吳委員配議的版本也是處理29條39條另外林一金委員"},{"start":10796.172,"end":10801.156,"text":"鄭天才委員陳冠廷委員只處理29條條文修正草案。但是今天我們有台灣民眾黨黨團所擬具的中央行政機關組織基準法第29條之外他們有針對33條條文修正草案"},{"start":10817.679,"end":10829.723,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期司法及法制委員會第12會期"},{"start":10843.189,"end":10854.703,"text":"提案做說明。那麼對於台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的第33條是不是請口頭補充做說明?請。那我們待會在進行第二案的時候會再讓委員進行大體的討論。"},{"start":10862.226,"end":10876.861,"text":"各位委員大家好,很抱歉針對台灣民眾黨所提的第33條法案,我們人事總署因為作業上的疏忽沒有特別去回應,在這裡跟大家致歉。"},{"start":10880.117,"end":10908.22,"text":"待會我們在處理第一案的時候請委員在做大體討論的時候請任總準備委員在之前的槌尋當中、詢答當中有問到的問題請預先做好準備。好那我們現在就開始進行第一案的并案審查行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案。請問這三委員由於本案僅有一條條文是否審略大體討論直接進入逐條討論。好那麼依依的話我們現在就進行逐條討論。"},{"start":10911.068,"end":10930.883,"text":"目前我們進行的條次是第三條目前有行政院提案主席這邊有包括徐富癸委員、吳沛憶委員、林一錦委員、鄭天腦委員、陳冠廷委員及范雲委員有六位委員及行政院提案等七個版本"},{"start":10934.803,"end":10948.889,"text":"請問各位委員對於本條內容有沒有討論的意見?那如果沒有,因為條文內容都大體相同,是否完到行政院提案通過?請。"},{"start":10955.776,"end":10982.481,"text":"謝謝昭偉那個行政院組織法第三條的部分偵測運動部我想應該是跨黨派的共識了那只不過說偵測運動部的部分那個施行的日期應該是行政院定是不是可以請行政院的代表說明一下大概什麼時候會施行行政院代表在說明之前也跟我們委員會提醒一下"},{"start":10983.001,"end":11004.018,"text":"那個日期我們是在39條,所以在第二案的時候會處理到39條之後會一併處理。那麼如果行政院代表可以的話,現在可以先跟委員會做說明。好,謝謝昭偉還有各位委員。按照我們所掌握到籌備處的一個時程,大概明年8月會成立。"},{"start":11011.501,"end":11017.807,"text":"八月是成立籌備處還是正式成立?正式掛牌所以什麼時候會開始籌備?"},{"start":11020.554,"end":11045.15,"text":"現在已經在籌備了現在已經在籌備所以如果我們今天順利的就這個部分那我們送出委員會那接下來院會完成二讀跟三讀那目前行政院施行的日期會劃在明年的八月是嗎是是嗎好謝謝謝謝黃委員的隨詢那請問各位委員我們對於本條條文內容還有沒有其他的意見"},{"start":11050.902,"end":11074.089,"text":"那沒有的話我們本條呢按照行政院提案通過那其他六案內容相同好那麼本條諸條已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完略擬具審查報告提醒院會公決那對於本案有沒有要提議交掌團協商"},{"start":11075.916,"end":11090.551,"text":"沒有那麼院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明那條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語用字授權主席及議事人員整理好"},{"start":11091.998,"end":11118.218,"text":"接下來我們繼續討論事項第二案,並案審查中央行政機關組織基準法第29條及第39條條文修正草案。請問在場委員本案是否要先進行大體討論,或是直接進入主條審查?因為三個條文。好,那麼有在場委員認為可以直接,三個條文就直接進行主條討論。好,那我們現在就開始。"},{"start":11119.141,"end":11143.755,"text":"那麼我們現在繼續進行逐條討論那麼修正三條那麼第一個是29條那29條目前呢有包括行政院考試院會前以及臺灣民眾黨黨人提案以及委員吳沛憶、林宜瑾、鄭天才、陳冠廷等一共六案那內容均相同那請委員表示意見"},{"start":11147.626,"end":11170.733,"text":"請問委員對於第29條有沒有...同意每個版本都一致嘛,同意。好,那麼在場委員同意,那我們第29條是不是照行政院考試院會前提案通過,內容均相同。好,接下來我們處理第33條,那麼是有台灣民眾黨黨團提案,那麼請討論。"},{"start":11177.28,"end":11199.235,"text":"請寬委員其實今天早上在巡導的時候針對台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三條的立法子區已經說明得非常清楚了針對有關於目前我們在三級機關下面所設置的數目是以70個為限那現在行政院整體的組織上面都成立了一個運動部"},{"start":11200.916,"end":11223.433,"text":"那同時配合新住民基本法要求必須要設一個三級的專責機關來處理有關新住民權益事項的維護那當然目前看起來好像行政院的規劃體育署裁撤了以後那升格為步那空出來的那個署似乎是要留給"},{"start":11224.674,"end":11231.925,"text":"本來的體育部在體育部裡面在偵測一個全民運動還是健康數的問題是說那70個就還是滿額"},{"start":11235.219,"end":11258.874,"text":"那70個滿額如果被中央行政機關組織基準法上面的上限給綁住的話那顯然新住民基本法這邊到底要怎麼處理就會陷入一個很痛苦的狀態那當然在立法者就中央行政機關組織基準法裡面我們就三級機關的上限把它往上調整那基本上是希望"},{"start":11259.754,"end":11274.145,"text":"讓行政機關在配合相關法例的時候能夠有一個相對的彈性能夠存在不要說修了這個法那另外一個法沒有隨之做調整那對行政機關來講也會很困擾"},{"start":11276.602,"end":11301.804,"text":"至於說到時候在行政機關內部是不是有需要再增設其他的三級機關這個到時候行政院提案立法院這邊還是要審議只是我們在處理的時候不要通常行政機關組織基準法每一次都隨之再做調整當然跟這個直接相關的事情就是有關於新住民基本法到底什麼時候才要實施的事情"},{"start":11303.085,"end":11320.011,"text":"我可以理解人事長今天也是承擔了一些你沒有辦法承擔的事情這個事情也不是你可以回答的但是我覺得在法制作業上面我們會提出這樣子就希望能夠配合新住民基本法的修正"},{"start":11321.985,"end":11346.619,"text":"好謝謝那麼吳委員要先發言吳委員發言後我們請行政機關答覆來請吳委員三個部分第一個確實成立運動部之後那有新成立了就是一部一署三中心我如果沒有記錯那所以說會回應在這個全民健康署的部分是不是會有這個"},{"start":11348.26,"end":11373.399,"text":"在第33條的第三項的部分 這個我是要先問如果有一個數的話 那個有沒有配套去修這是我第一個問題第二個問題是說就我過去長期以來 在國會的經驗跟理解包括在地方政府也是 常常會有一些增設的新的機關包括我在市政府市議會的時候 那時候我們催生了大地工程處也催生了動保處"},{"start":11374.66,"end":11392.917,"text":"所以每一個我想這個國家的法制地方中央都一貫當有一個新的機關產生的時候就會對應去修它的組織原額跟它的基準法所以它勢必是一個蘿蔔一個坑新增或新減然後或是刪減然後去調配它的"},{"start":11393.396,"end":11407.66,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案 案件 、 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件 、 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件 、 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件 、 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件 、 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案"},{"start":11418.143,"end":11418.323,"text":"三）委員林宜"},{"start":11437.774,"end":11463.13,"text":"但是我希望這個要回到制度就是一個蘿蔔一個坑否則這個就直接從70跳到75還不知道說是哪一個會新成立我覺得這樣在立法上我是沒有辦法支持的但是呢因為這個條文顯然是要行政院來回答我個人是建議這樣沒有共識的條文我們就可以先通過"},{"start":11466,"end":11473.824,"text":"我本身對於條到75就理由是沒有辦法支持因為我剛剛我講了不能溢出空的增加五個機關在那裡"},{"start":11474.642,"end":11475.662,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":11497.412,"end":11519.887,"text":"請行政機關說明因為我們昨天本委員會在審查有一個運動部組織法那麼有一個全民運動署還有一個教育部的組織法以及三個行政法人的中心那關於第一個全民運動署的部分跟今天第33條的聯動請人事總署說明"},{"start":11523.103,"end":11546.039,"text":"到目前我們整體的一個評估還是維持70個就是剛才吳委員所提的增加一個就是減一個的概念就是維持70個維持70個那這個部分我想還是維持目前這樣的一個遊戲規則好那麼請問其他委員對於來請黃委員"},{"start":11554.92,"end":11580.28,"text":"我再說明一次喔新住民基本法裡面已經是一個三讀通過生效的法律了他就是要設一個三級機關嘛我們在詢答的過程當中你也回答的很直接嘛除非裁撤掉一個三級機關嘛否則新住民基本法裡面要成立的三級機關沒有辦法成立嘛因為遇到中央行政機關組織基準法的規定我這樣的理解有錯沒有錯"},{"start":11581.325,"end":11608.34,"text":"沒有事實上我們也同步在評估現有的70個裡面要去沒有關係啦評估的事情你已經講過了嘛當你們講要評估要研議的時候聽在所有的立法委員乃至於整個台灣社會耳朵當你們說要評估要研議的時候大家就不知道會等到什麼時候嘛要研議的法案研議個五年六年七年所在多有嘛"},{"start":11609.901,"end":11638.604,"text":"這件事大家都聽過了啦那我剛剛問你就運動部的部分全民都期待趕快成立我們都支持聽到你說明年8月我們修的法就要開始正式施行我們聽了也很高興啊立法者立了法以後施行日期給你們定是希望給你們作業時間嘛但不是要給你們無限延宕嘛"},{"start":11641.406,"end":11665.829,"text":"所以你們可以這麼爽快的說就運動部的部分明年8月可以開始做大家覺得都很好完全沒有要阻礙的意思但就會讓我開始想另外一件事新住民基本法7月16號就完成二讀跟三讀他沒有要成立部他只要一個三級機關"},{"start":11667.512,"end":11694.589,"text":"新住民基本法一個在7月16號就已經三讀通過生效的法律說要設三級機關但行政院對於新住民基本法的這個三級機關卻不斷的要研議嘛要思考嘛要籌備嘛我今天詢他的時候我也請教你你要思考你要研議你要籌備到什麼時間今天你也不知道嘛"},{"start":11696.004,"end":11724.481,"text":"我看卓榮泰也不知道因為我的蔓玉珍委員在院會裡面問卓榮泰卓榮泰說他還要研議嘛不斷的研議嘛持續的研議嘛一個不的成立一個不的成立喔現在法案都還沒有三讀通過可是行政院做得很積極啊馬上就可以跟大家講明年八月就要啦"},{"start":11726.55,"end":11734.635,"text":"另外一個還不是二級機關部喔只是一個三級機關喔法案已經生效三讀生效囉然後你們行政院的態度是什麼要演繹要不斷的演繹持續的演繹我相信啦"},{"start":11751.583,"end":11775.312,"text":"兩個截然不同的態度跟行政的效率看在不同的委員乃至於社會大眾的眼中大家心裡都有一把尺這到底是在幹什麼在做什麼事情那沒有關係啊因為司法法制委員會的慣例是什麼司法法制委員會的慣例我們也不會"},{"start":11776.536,"end":11799.281,"text":"在這邊做什麼強行的表決嘛我們上次在修吹哨者保護法的時候大家就很和諧啊有不同的意見就保留嘛而不同的意見保留交付黨團協商再來處理嘛但在法案的處理上齁我先表達一下台灣民眾黨黨團的意見這個出去的時候齁請不要把33條丟包"},{"start":11803.592,"end":11826.587,"text":"不要把33條丟包你要的就是整部法案就保留送協商看什麼時候要趕快召集協商派行政院有代表權的人來參與協商大家做協商的共識來處理我們都可以接受我們本來提案是本於善意"},{"start":11827.768,"end":11852.587,"text":"給你們多一點彈性那你們覺得沒有需要這個彈性要一個蘿蔔一個坑那也可以啊我們到時候協商的時候再來討論嘛我要給你75啊你行政部門說不要不要我不要這個彈性以後要修的時候再來跟動一次中央行政機關組織基準法我也沒意見啊當初為什麼提案到75因為當初提案到75的時候我根本搞不清楚"},{"start":11853.368,"end":11878.928,"text":"你們的運動部或者是體育部裡面的三級機關到底要有幾個嘛我只聽到一個口號說要一個運動部要一個體育部啊三級機關要有幾個啊那個時候我們提案的時候還沒有明確的規劃所以為什麼會提到75本來是要給運動部或者是體育部一定的空間去安排三級機關那現在行政院表明沒有必要留這個空間給你們"},{"start":11880.782,"end":11905.927,"text":"我也敬表尊重要給你們彈性給你們空間你們不要那也OK但是我們提案最主要的目的新住民基本法已經是三讀通過的法律案了裡面要訂三級機關這個已經是當地喔已經是做出來的決定了那你們要籌備要研議三級機關什麼時候要實施講不出來"},{"start":11910.07,"end":11937.171,"text":"體育部倒是講得非常的快那行政院的作業顯然複雜深奧的程度已經超越了一般人可以理解的範圍那這個條文岡委員有保留所以要保留我們競表同意沒有問題就保留但請不要把這個條文給第二包要就一起保留那就交付黨團協商以上"},{"start":11938.544,"end":11959.142,"text":"在這裡先處理會議時間。上午會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項第一、二案法案審查完畢為止。剛剛在提到說我們現在進行的是討論事項第二案,并案審查有六個案子,那六個案子包括三個條文。"},{"start":11960.223,"end":11961.904,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11986.437,"end":11994.447,"text":"所以第二案一定是依這樣的一個二案全案的方式送出委員會那每個條文29條、33條、39條的處理方式依委員會的決定來表達來請吳委員"},{"start":12001.441,"end":12019.472,"text":"在第二次發言我剛剛是說如果沒辦法的話保留那我最後機會我還是把握機會想再做最後的說服就是說因為這一次的修法是針對運動部那聽起來大家朝野都非常的支持"},{"start":12020.473,"end":12020.713,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":12036.165,"end":12040.048,"text":"就如同以運動部的相關他有四個組織法要處理所以說呢當運動部要成立一個全民就是一署三中心都是新的他就會有去修教育部的組織法他會去修這個他的各署的這個基本法會去處理他嘛設置條例什麼的"},{"start":12057.718,"end":12082.907,"text":"如果說民眾黨的委員對於新住民的這個部分那當然未來要回到內政部的組織法然後來提對於新住民要設在哪一個機關他叫什麼名字所以讓那個時刻當然再也都可以去push行政部門去爭取每個委員想要的對應的組織但是他勢必要回到內政部的組織法一併提出來"},{"start":12083.949,"end":12086.881,"text":"所以我是覺得是不是可以讓運動部的這件事情單純處理"},{"start":12088.922,"end":12090.543,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":12118.286,"end":12119.146,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":12133.951,"end":12133.991,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":12156.313,"end":12156.534,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":12184.658,"end":12199.592,"text":"謝謝黃委員等一下我們主席先做一個意識上的說明那麼由於我們現在的討論事項第二案是六案合併那其中呢台灣民眾黨黨人的提案是29跟33條是在一個案子裡面"},{"start":12200.573,"end":12204.918,"text":"另外的五個案子,他是29條跟39條,或者是說39條單獨。現在有一個困難,就是剛剛跟吳委員說明一下。因為第一,本院的議事規則沒有使用分開的動議。"},{"start":12215.23,"end":12215.45,"text":"二）委員林宜"},{"start":12235.862,"end":12261.55,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法把臺灣民眾黨黨團提案分成29條照案通過33條做其他的處理所以這裡面跟吳委員做說明一下謝謝那接下來請黃委員我說明一下就是說剛剛有委員發言提到說新住民是不是要再用一個三級機關來駕馭處理對這樣子的陳述我覺得可能要把它說清楚"},{"start":12263.041,"end":12289.853,"text":"這已經不是新住民要不要以一個三級機關來加以處理這不是問號這是新住民專責機關一定要以一個三級機關來加以處理啊一定要以一個三級機關來加以處理啊為什麼一定新住民基本法已經是立法院三讀通過的法案啊這怎麼會是問號呢這是第一點第二點我為什麼要把時序講得這麼清楚"},{"start":12292.443,"end":12316.618,"text":"七月十六號三讀通過。接著請問行政院,我看你們積極努力的程度啊,看得在很多新住民的朋友眼中會很心寒。現在不要給新住民的朋友戴上太大的帽子啊。說為了新住民延宕體育部的成立,不好意思喔,不可承受之重,無法接受。"},{"start":12317.93,"end":12345.178,"text":"我為什麼說這是不可承受之重我再說一次啊 體育部我們贊成啊我從頭到尾沒有不贊成啊但事情要講道理啊新住民基本法是先完成三讀的欸你們一個二級的部喔可以這麼積極喔明年八月要開始正式施行時間都壓出來了一個三級的新住民專責機關講不出來"},{"start":12347.54,"end":12376.403,"text":"我再說一次啊聽在所有新住民的耳朵裡面情何以堪啊情何以堪啊現在針對這個案子非常的簡單啊你三級機關的數字一定要調整啊你不調整你怎麼樣去符合新住民基本法的規定還是打從心裡就沒有打算要實施新住民基本法能拖就拖繼續拖看可以拖多久"},{"start":12378.8,"end":12395.794,"text":"我知道很多問題人事長沒辦法處理啊所以我才希望今天有行政院的代表啊那行政院的代表要開行政院會很忙沒辦法來,召委準價我雖然不滿意,但我也是尊重所以我才說協商的時候就請他來說清楚嘛那第二個一個月的協商會去影響到運動部的成立嗎?不會啊"},{"start":12406.567,"end":12428.249,"text":"因為施行日期是行政院定的啊。我不管是11月31號完成三讀還是多一個月12月31號完成三讀都是明年才要施行啊。你施行日期不是從公告日啊。所以我們沒有要延宕體育部的成立喔。這個話要把它講清楚啊。"},{"start":12429.107,"end":12457.728,"text":"多一個月協商就是希望行政院派有代表權的人來說清楚講明白75個彈性他不要那可以到協商的時候大家討論嘛那是不是71個他說71個我也不要我堅持要70個那你就協商講清楚你要廢掉哪一個三級機關那否則的話讓新住民的朋友遙遙無期的等待下去我覺得恐怕啦"},{"start":12460.146,"end":12460.506,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":12485.286,"end":12498.939,"text":"請問有沒有其他委員要針對33條發言。來請麥委員發言。謝謝主席。我真的今天聽到就是其他委員講我真的覺得很心寒。"},{"start":12499.62,"end":12501.962,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案»案。netesure"},{"start":12517.651,"end":12525.6,"text":"但是我們希望的是要成立一個署是來去幫助我們政府多一個機關多一個地方第一個來讓他們可以發揮第二個是幫行政部門解決問題讓國際覺得我們台灣是友善的"},{"start":12537.833,"end":12538.013,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":12556.002,"end":12559.063,"text":"我們是推運動就是讓年輕人少朋友讓我們全部的台灣健康嘛要多多的去運動這樣才會增加嘛我們生意力已經減少了還多一個部來增加是不是因為有更多人需要健康但是有健康裡面也包含我們的家庭"},{"start":12579.008,"end":12579.148,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":12590.816,"end":12615.208,"text":"但是選舉的時候呢就說我們心裏面最軟的一塊就是新住民我們最照顧的新住民所以我們希望不是你們在照顧而已希望給我們機會讓我們為台灣來付出所以我們要一直來學習一直希望我們為台灣付出但是你們就是我們要在台灣付出是不對的是影響到我們台灣的發展"},{"start":12618.47,"end":12619.39,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":12636.556,"end":12636.636,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶"},{"start":12654.378,"end":12655.438,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":12671.224,"end":12694.836,"text":"所以只是那麼簡單的增加一個數而已但是每一個人覺得好像增加一個數我們好像是影響到臺灣影響到大家的工作影響大家的發展事實上是增加是對臺灣更有幫助的我們要希望的就是依法來去成立增加一個數但是現在我們的組織法裡面我們是增加一個不也沒有經過任何的"},{"start":12700.499,"end":12703.92,"text":"我們立法院來去討論就是說行政部門想要增加這個部是覺得需求所有都是覺得需求才要增加嘛但是我們現在就是人數很多我們希望增加就是專職專屬來去服務對我們台灣的發展是有幫助的也對我們在台灣學習有目標也對我們下一代更有幫助"},{"start":12727.225,"end":12742.25,"text":"所以我們希望是有這個署來去做這樣子的一個掙扎的服務不是影響到其他署或者部但是我們覺得行政部門也好我們委員也好覺得好像是現在修這個組織法再掙扎一個署好像是最大的罪惡或者對台灣好像影響很大這樣我覺得聽了是很難過啦"},{"start":12755.174,"end":12755.495,"text":"以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":12762.693,"end":12784.85,"text":"請邁委員剛剛在整個討論過程中沒有人說增加一個數對台灣是傷害沒有啊沒有任何一個人講到這句話我們整個一碼歸一碼啦也許邁委員講的這個是新住民的心聲但是我們今天的審查針對運動部運動部裡面我們其實這一條第33條修正也不是新住民你剛所所有的發言"},{"start":12786.189,"end":12810.298,"text":"也許令人很感動,但他應該是在新住民基本法的時候討論了之後的發言,他不是在行政院組織法討論的時候發言。因為我們現在是,其實剛才吳世耀委員所講的意思其實很簡單,就是說今天我們是針對運動部的修法所做的配套,那配套目前運動部修法的部分還不牽涉到這個"},{"start":12814.337,"end":12838.228,"text":"以70個為限這個問題還不牽涉到未來新住民這個按照新住民基本法要設立這個署的時候他也不是說招牌掛上去就成立了他一樣內政部如果是在內政部他要內政部組織法要修法他一樣就會跟運動部一樣他有相關的這些配套包括是不是要動到行政院組織的基本法來這個改變目前這個這個"},{"start":12842.25,"end":12842.93,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":12868.109,"end":12884.581,"text":"之所以會在中央行政機關組織基準法裡面來規定這個70個上限它有它的意義就是說這70個上限它就是希望說不要組織本身不要不要再無限的擴大那我們今天每修一個法"},{"start":12886.809,"end":12912.46,"text":"每做組織調整我們就一直把這個上限往上調我認為這個不是說不行也不是說調整這一個是天大的罪惡沒有,剛剛都沒有人這樣講只是說是不是等我們內政部組織法在新入名的這個相關主管機關要修正的時候那個時候再來一併討論這個雙方行政機關組織基準法這個這樣我覺得這個才是應該是只是在程序上面有所爭執而已好不好謝謝"},{"start":12914.846,"end":12923.454,"text":"來,請問有沒有委員發言?來,我們請謝委員。主席、各位委員、大家早。其實運動補責我是有參與連署,所以剛才美委員在講文言,這是不一樣的。專門的共識就是說希望在這個體育部運動補責,對我們台灣現在很重要。"},{"start":12940.509,"end":12969.717,"text":"但是你要想想我們的務生對一條八千多億到現在三條一千多億,疊疊高騰。啊如果說行政院還急速地說這三級組織安全最寒的到我這,這是每天宿客啊。對新住民我想沒有分洞牌大家都很關心,大家都很聽事。所以不需要在這裡沒有那些修分的對立。"},{"start":12973.116,"end":12982.142,"text":"還利用這個規範我支持民眾黨這個案,我也是有支持的。所以我認為要慎重考慮。我也建議民眾黨在這班的總務省對議長的質詢應該要給議長適當表態。你們在這個委員會的質詢裡面應該有一個名字。"},{"start":12997.458,"end":13020.607,"text":"所以若是進入協商,我個人是沒有堅持的。但是這個時候就是說,你們利用這順的時候,請移到標台。因為畢竟三篤同軌的法律,我也沒有希望行政院還在外面受到傷害嘛。說什麼,譬如中午聖誕節,三篤同軌法律案,結果行政院沒有執行。其實這中間有一點誤會。結果經過49天後,又回到原點。"},{"start":13024.715,"end":13042.824,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 令 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 令 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 令 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 令 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 令 行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":13053.066,"end":13076.732,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案 案 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組"},{"start":13079.144,"end":13084.449,"text":"來到這,代表新竹民的心聲,我也是一巴掌給他們尊重。好,謝謝。那麼本條我想主席這樣一個綜合整理,看看與會的委員如何。"},{"start":13094.885,"end":13100.628,"text":"由於今日我們討論事項第二案有併了六案。六案分別處理29條、33條及39條。憑信而論以29條來說目前我們在昨日審議的"},{"start":13110.734,"end":13111.875,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":13126.504,"end":13151.038,"text":"對於70個署的數量的規定因此行政院送來的版本及各種的版本基本上是增設了一個部所以今天才會有計準法第29條14個部會要增加為15個部會但是由於在運動部成立的這樣的一個配套當中那麼全民運動署他是取代原來在教育部裡面的體育署"},{"start":13151.778,"end":13151.958,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶"},{"start":13172.228,"end":13193.697,"text":"那麼行政院的版本及各委員的版本處理的方式是直接將教育部原所屬的體育署把它削減而改為運動部所轄的全民運動署那意味著包括現在臺灣民眾黨的提案他們修改的是29條及33條那麼目前動的是部會從14個增加為15個署的一個那個數量從70個增加為75個那這當然意味著"},{"start":13201.28,"end":13218.486,"text":"以剛剛所主張的所謂的新住民署或者新住民三級機關那麼它不受到部會徵不徵社的影響所以我可以理解臺灣民眾黨提案14個增加為15個應該也是響應呼應要把運動部成立才會也將14改為15那至於75個署要不要調整"},{"start":13225.969,"end":13246.304,"text":"從70條到75當然蘊含著未來如果我們新住民要成立三級機關他就不受到既有70個的限制但這要端視內政部組織法的一個修訂那由於目前陳如剛省委員所說的目前我們並沒有內政部組織法跟其轄下所屬的三級機關的調整"},{"start":13247.765,"end":13265.666,"text":"所以我們不能確定目前行政院對於要新成立的三級機關就是來主管新住民業務的是要在內政部底下既有的三級機關的總數額當中去做挪移跟整併還是需要再增設一個三級機關"},{"start":13266.647,"end":13289.866,"text":"那如果到時候行政院內政部對於成立新的三級機關有需求那當然就會影響到我們今天基準法第33條70個這個上限應否調整所以在這裏一併續名也跟麥委員說明一下目前其他的版本沒有去動我們的33條基準法當中70個數的上限"},{"start":13290.546,"end":13290.987,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等"},{"start":13308.308,"end":13309.129,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":13323.217,"end":13323.477,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":13340.229,"end":13360.078,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等14人擬具〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案〉案。現在33條雖然沒有直接指明是要針對新住民成立三級機關來討論因為70個不代表不能成立新住民的三級機關提高為75個也不等於未來內政部他底下的三級機關會不會用到額外的這5個名額是不是要考慮到說大家討論的標的"},{"start":13365.481,"end":13392.783,"text":"目前並沒有內政部組織法修正草案在場那是不是我們三十三條的部分再次徵詢現在有兩個一個意見一個是台灣民眾黨的黨團提案一個是不予修正維持現行條文那如果大家對於這兩個任何之一都沒有共識我們就只能保留所以我現在徵詢我們委員會意見那第一個就是依台灣民眾黨黨團提案來審查通過那大家有不同意見嗎"},{"start":13395.155,"end":13419.215,"text":"剛剛吳委員是說不同意見。不同意見。那如果不予修正維持現成條文有不同意見嗎?不同意見。那我們33條就保留。好謝謝。那接下來我們進行第39條。那麼目前39條呢有行政院考試院版以及包括吳沛憶、林宜錦、鄭天才委員等三個案。那內容條文有些差異。那我這邊是不是容我?"},{"start":13420.427,"end":13442.17,"text":"有個修正動議在場請大家看一下那是不是先請宣讀一下討論四項第二案修正動議一中央行政機關組織基準法第三十九條對照現行條文第一項未修正第二項本法中華民國九十九年一月十二日一月一百十年"},{"start":13443.471,"end":13454.453,"text":"十二月二十八日及某年某月某日修正這條文習其施行日期由行政院定制提案人委員鍾嘉斌聯署人委員審法會莊瑞雄陳俊宇宣讀完畢。"},{"start":13456.374,"end":13476.389,"text":"好,那這裡呢因為主席這邊是這個對照條文就是39條的修正動議那這裡說明這純粹是大家請看對照表因為呢目前行政院考試院提案的文字內容跟自己行政院在92年11月6號所公布的有關於"},{"start":13478.01,"end":13491.742,"text":"法律修正條文他的修正條文的施行日期的空白欄填注的體力的處理原則那麼這其實是行政院自己頒訂但是目前這個行政院跟考試院會前的提案內文"},{"start":13493.243,"end":13495.045,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":13511.658,"end":13540.928,"text":"及110年10月28日修正之條文後面其施行日期由行政院定之這是現行條文目前我們在場的條文內容它會在99年1月改成2月3日修正公佈由於修正跟公佈這兩個日期是不會一樣的所以目前行政院考試院提出的條文就把這樣的一個修正跟公佈的日期"},{"start":13541.508,"end":13564.798,"text":"以後面的公布日期為準去做修改。那麼我們這邊的修正動議建議條文是把它單純化。也就是說第二項本法中華民國99年1月22日頓號110年12月28日及就是我們後來要修正的某年某月某日修正之條文。就是直接這樣講。"},{"start":13566.018,"end":13594.903,"text":"這樣簡化文字之後呢就不會把修正跟公佈啊這兩個日期不一樣的事項呢涵蓋在一個文字敘述當中那麼也符合行政院自己在92年11月6號他所公佈的一個範例體例那請問各位委員是否同意呢我們修正動議呢將現行現在在場的39條的五個案子的最後的文字表述方式依修正條文的文字表述方式來通過"},{"start":13598.001,"end":13604.171,"text":"同意嗎?好,如果沒有意見,那我們就照修正條文通過。謝謝。"},{"start":13608.84,"end":13618.825,"text":"本案逐條均已處理完畢,作以下宣告。本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告提請院會公決。本案須交由黨團協商,院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明。"},{"start":13630.16,"end":13637.994,"text":"沒有附帶決議那麼條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事領員整理。"},{"start":13638.865,"end":13664.457,"text":"好那麼現在呢我們討論事項第三案第四案行政院人事行政總署相關預算案報告及巡查完畢做如下決議均令定期繼續審查審查會委員針對人事行政總署相關預算之提案再次宣告請於11月21日下午5時前提出與其不予受理本次會議進行到此現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16266","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d10c4563b5e5bf20a8bd03a951da4504bedb79b8bfb08e799d606e9470e9cabd65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分。（僅詢答））","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-14T08:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:50:00+08:00","duration":8386,"影片長度":"02:19:46","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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26.164,"text":"那另外我們也會來堅守採購兼辦的一個職責那依法來執行相關的採購兼辦來增進我們採購的效益同時來杜絕採購的弊端7我們會加強我們特勤委安的訓練提升人員本職的學能那在這部分我們會持續的來辦理各項特勤專業的訓練工作並且來實施年度體技能的建設還有各項專精的技能競賽以便來提升我們特勤同仁"},{"start":2328.41,"end":2347.657,"text":"應變還有防處的能力提升特勤的專業數值第三大部分是有關於114年度公開預算編列的情形在稅入的部分本局編列993萬3千元在稅措部分本局編列了有10億8304萬8千元那這部分主要包括的有幾項的"},{"start":2350.459,"end":2359.167,"text":"在行政管理費用的編列部分我們編列了有9億5256萬元在情報教育訓練的部分本局編列有4280萬8千元在情報建築跟設備費用的部分本局編列有8768萬元"},{"start":2367.395,"end":2394.092,"text":"第4部分節語本局114年度公開預算主要是前瞻當前的國際情勢跟橫著未來的情報特勤工作退展的一個實際的需要並且遵照到行政院核列的數額何時來編列在這邊特別期盼各位委員先進可以給予本局持續的支持還有相關的指導以確保國家安全情報工作可以順利的推行以上報告謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝蔡局長請回"},{"start":2395.573,"end":2399.835,"text":"公開報告結束接下來我們要進行秘密會議來進行機密報告請議事人員清場"},{"start":3238.427,"end":3244.271,"text":"我們現在登記公開詢答的委員開始進行詢答首先請"},{"start":3277.202,"end":3291.075,"text":"我們在開放會場的當下本席做一個重要宣告那我們由於這一次的國防外交委員會絕大多數的成員都第一次參加所以我們昨天在國防部也是如此我們希望"},{"start":3292.697,"end":3317.939,"text":"延長各部會跟委員做預算說明報告以及委員要垂詢的時間所以我們會把這個溝通的時間拉長給他兩週的時間方便各位委員就預算提出詢問所以有關114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分"},{"start":3318.72,"end":3335.336,"text":"那我們預算提案預算提案於11月21日下午5點前截止收件請各委員及各委員辦公室的同仁注意這個時間預算的提案截止時間是11月21日"},{"start":3339.067,"end":3359.142,"text":"下午5點截止收件令審查時間暫定於12月4號12月4號進行主案的審查本席在這邊做宣告接下來我們公開質詢的委員請羅美玲委員上台質詢本委員會6加2非本委員會4分鐘請"},{"start":3366.547,"end":3368.228,"text":"國安局作為我國的情報統合機關負責我們國家安全情報工作以及測情工作的這個策劃跟執行那業務其實是具有非常高度的機敏性"},{"start":3393.51,"end":3407.037,"text":"那近年來我們可以看到中共的網軍還有國際的駭客呢而持續的這個侵擾讓這個國安局面臨的這個治安威脅的這個事件是逐年地在攀升所以本席也看到說在這個114年度我們有"},{"start":3411.26,"end":3439.455,"text":"對針對資安維管工作編列了將近9800萬的預算作為資安相關設備維護跟採購的經費那對這部分有助於提升國家情報工作的資安防護能量本身是予以肯定跟支持可是又如何確保資安維護工作能夠真正的落實並有效的執行我想這部分我接下來我是想要"},{"start":3439.915,"end":3440.056,"text":"．審查委員會議"},{"start":3447.883,"end":3471.172,"text":"國安局呢,因為國安局的業務是涉及這國家安全跟相關這個機密的事項的程度是非常的深所以是屬於資通安全而任等級A級的這個機關那自屬受這個敵方勢力跟國際駭客進行的網路攻擊也好或是侵擾事件是影響最大的這個單位之一所以我們可以看到就是說我們在這個"},{"start":3472.772,"end":3485.881,"text":"國安局資安人員的這部分我們有一些評比有一些考核的一些指標可是我從今年的預算書所列的這個年度關鍵績效指標來看維持資安人員專業證照比率的這個設定我們看起來是有"},{"start":3492.386,"end":3492.846,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3520.788,"end":3523.35,"text":"不具挑戰性請問局長你怎麼看這部分"},{"start":3550.808,"end":3550.828,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3565.725,"end":3594.095,"text":"因為他是一個有點激動浮動的一個狀況那委員也知道本局因為有軍職人員跟文職人員特別是軍職的人員他們只要一借領之後就必須要離退那尤其有一些在資安背景的同仁他在民間市場上他也非常具有競爭力也可以找到更好的工作所以我們必須在律定這個所謂的目標值要考慮到人員流動所產生在那個證照比也會被拉下來的一個問題所以這大概是我們當時在編列這個目標值"},{"start":3595.615,"end":3621.829,"text":"主要考慮的一個重點所以你說在一年當中可能它都是會有一些的浮動所以你們就會定的比較保守一點的意思吧對 跟委員說明一下大概歷年的經驗來講那個流動率大概都有一成左右一年當中都會有一成的這個流動率所以變成是說你的目標值也不敢拉得太高因為人員的流動新進人員進來他要去完成這些證照的考試他會需要有一個過渡的期間"},{"start":3622.529,"end":3648.289,"text":"OK了解那再來還有一點就是在我們資通安全責任等級分級辦法裡面有明確要求A級的這個機關資安專職人員必須取得4張以上的這個證照而非專職人員也必須要定期接受這個資安訓練那國安局作為這個A級機關那我們在這個部分呢有沒有說去做要求"},{"start":3648.809,"end":3648.929,"text":"．審查委員"},{"start":3668.55,"end":3672.591,"text":"我們不只是要求要去積極的來考取相關的證照要是能夠考取證照的話我們也會有一些工作的津貼跟獎勵來鼓勵同仁積極來考取相關的證照所以我們是完全按照這個資通安全責任等級這個分級的應辦的事項來做辦的就是"},{"start":3686.195,"end":3707.194,"text":"對,而且也跟委員補充說明一下這邊委員在螢幕上有顯示對於非專職的資訊人員要定期來進行相關的治安教育我們甚至不是只有針對國安局的治安人員來進行治安的教育我們針對我們整個國安團隊包括國安局11個單位我們也安排相關的課程來協訓各個國安單位的治安人員"},{"start":3707.734,"end":3708.695,"text":"資安集合的作業跟網路工房演練也是我們資安"},{"start":3727.312,"end":3728.133,"text":"這部分這是不公開呢還是說我們根本在這個部分"},{"start":3755.914,"end":3784.693,"text":"有有有跟委員說明一下我們在那個剛也跟委員提到我們在網路的專職的教育還有資安的攻防演練都有定期的在舉行而且特別要強調的是不是只有局內的同仁來參加相關的演練工作我們會邀集我們國安團隊其他的資安團隊進來做相關的演練而且還有涉及到跟外國相關的團隊的一個交流的經驗所以這部分在執行規劃上"},{"start":3785.834,"end":3788.298,"text":"國安局是屬於比較特殊的單位所以很多相關的資訊我們是看不到的那比如像這個我們前面前面前一頁有提"},{"start":3802.398,"end":3806.02,"text":"關鍵技巧指標提到強化資安委管工作,每年必須36篇完成搜研分析及發布資安通告篇數,內參"},{"start":3822.188,"end":3843.296,"text":"各位委員說明一下就針對一些相關重大的資安攻擊事件的話那我們跟整個中央民國政府有一個通報的機制那假如涉及到民間單位我們也會請政府的業管部會去通知民間單位要注意到可能有資安攻擊的警訊這大概是第一個部分那第二部分我們除了內參還有內部政府的跨部會聯繫"},{"start":3844.256,"end":3866.768,"text":"通報以外,我們大概每個月也會針對一些國際或國內的治安情勢,每個月都會有一個比較簡單的一個報告公開上網在本局的網頁我現在看到的就是簡單的報告,所以我們有個資通安全訊息我們看到的就是一些簡單的報告,那這36篇的內容我們是不是不適合公開嗎?因為我們是看不到這些資訊的"},{"start":3867.648,"end":3869.309,"text":"最後一分鐘因為我看到國安局的網站歷年被駭客成功入侵的次數都是零的所以表示說我們國安局對這個網安的威脅事件"},{"start":3895.177,"end":3922.398,"text":"我們有非常厚實的能量所以我在想說是不是可以跨部會來給大家做一些參考可能給他們做一些分析我們怎麼做到的我想這部分的話可以讓其他的部會來做一個借鏡因為這部分謝委員提醒我們會跟其他部會來分享我們的經驗也跟委員很老實的報告只要是真的是有經驗有能力的外國駭客一接觸到我們網站大概就知道我們建立的能量是非常強大他們不太願意花時間來攻打這樣的"},{"start":3924.36,"end":3924.8,"text":"有請局長謝謝主席來局長請"},{"start":3951.687,"end":3971.649,"text":"好謝謝主席黃委員長好局長好我們來探討一下這個珠海的一個這個航展今年大陸今年在珠海航展已在11月12號到17號的舉辦那對於珠海航展的是否有關局長有沒有關注"},{"start":3972.41,"end":3989.462,"text":"那在今年的航展展現了部分先進武器的一個科技比如我們的千三五A進行飛行展示然後千十五T艦艦載戰鬥機千十五D艦載電子戰的飛機還有直20J艦載直升機等共經現役的新型的主戰的一個裝備"},{"start":4003.09,"end":4026.278,"text":"經爲首次公開的亮相那還有其他九天無人機的航母普京號大型無人艦等所以這個等等他們在這個航展的部分對應展現新型的武器這針對這個部分你認為大陸在這一次的珠海展這個曝光這麼多的新式的武器的目的是什麼"},{"start":4027.731,"end":4050.28,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個問題我們的判斷大概在珠海航展的過程當中那中國要達到的目的有兩個一個部分是委員已經在檔案當中有特別指出來的就是希望達到一個對外宣傳展示武力的一個宣傳的目的那這部分可以展示中共在軍備的投資那已經有相當的建制的能量那這大概是第一個部分"},{"start":4050.88,"end":4070.492,"text":"第二部分當然也是希望透過珠海的航展可以尋找更多的潛在的國外客戶來採購中共所自己產製的武器那政府委員所提到的這一屆珠海航展有幾個特色一個部分是在建載機的部分包括殲35還有殲15T那這個都可能運用到中共第三艘"},{"start":4071.553,"end":4099.42,"text":"福建號航空母艦的一個運用所以他是在展示他的一個艦載機的肌肉那另外像今年的轟6K也特別去搭載了他鷹擊21也是一個新型的飛彈不過他展示只有模型的部分那已經有在特別展示他由空對地打擊的能力那另外紅旗19的防空防擋系統那也是一個他們宣傳的重點外銷的部分大概今年放在殲10CE這一款的新型飛機"},{"start":4100.205,"end":4115.999,"text":"另外本席有一個注意到的這一次的珠海航展的特色除了秀肌肉找買家可能有幾個特殊的意義需要國安局注意的第一個"},{"start":4117.416,"end":4146.065,"text":"宣傳的意義對內對內強化大陸民眾的觀榮感對臺灣民眾透露了解放軍的軍力的強大以形成心理壓力甚至嚮往第二個是體系這個體系式的展示這個本屆航展覆蓋陸海空天電網全領域目標在向美日等大國顯示"},{"start":4147.605,"end":4172.054,"text":"競爭成果甚至進一步警告美日等國家要介入台海戰爭不要介入台海戰爭第三暗示軍事科技發展進程此次的珠海航展大陸對於新式武器尤其是1300A有別於過去共軍對於新式武器的"},{"start":4175.096,"end":4195.011,"text":"這個引海作風（大方開放民眾拍攝攝影若依照大陸在製造一代籌備一代規劃一代的科技發展進程暗示大陸可能已經展開了下一代武器的製造甚至下架帶武器的研發規劃"},{"start":4196.392,"end":4216.181,"text":"所以請國安局對於上述的三種情況要有所準備尤其是第一項如何安定台灣的民心和第三項如何取得研發的情資都應該多加以這個使力好不好好謝謝委員提醒我們要繼續的關注也做比較系統化的分析"},{"start":4217.502,"end":4236.393,"text":"有關於我們辦公廳舍的問題這也是過去很多委員一直在提到每一次你們的廳舍裡面就有關於主要防水、避矮處理及地板的汰換以辦公室空間整建或防水工程等為例"},{"start":4237.773,"end":4241.435,"text":"第一個110年經費780萬110年約920萬112年約2700萬113年約4200萬114年約1400萬5年都快編列1億了所以有沒有可能我們像我們的外交部的外管"},{"start":4262.667,"end":4279.34,"text":"過去裡面也是一直在陳珠最後直接買有沒有跟國產署來商討就是因為你們常常會有什麼漏水嚴重啦非常潮濕啦因為你們在陽明三角嘛所以這樣的一個每一次都這樣子來修繕來做一個修補"},{"start":4282.563,"end":4296.701,"text":"不是一個長久之計而且五年來都已經耗盡了一億有沒有可能再找一個辦公廳社跟國參署來商討一下這樣的話來一次解決來解決這個辦法"},{"start":4298.387,"end":4298.667,"text":"你們的執行率是60%"},{"start":4327.921,"end":4330.842,"text":"因為去年有一個防色整建計畫在招標的6次之後還流標因為物價的波動"},{"start":4348.249,"end":4364.758,"text":"以致我們國安局在委外都會特別要求營建商不能使用外勞或其他國家的勞工所以造成的成本非常的高那我們後來那個案子因為取消延緩來辦理才會造成執行率不到7成所以你們下一年度又要再一次的編列"},{"start":4366.359,"end":4393.426,"text":"這個也不是一個解決辦法所以我們認為第一個我們的公堂我們要有所保留就是不要浪費那我想我的本席建議就是說如果每一年就是這樣的來修繕因為那個地方是屬於潮濕的地帶因為你們是陽明三角會潮濕所以有沒有可能跟比照外交部的外館一樣剛開始他們用陳珠的"},{"start":4393.866,"end":4418.521,"text":"最後他們一次解決埋下來那有沒有可能跟國產署來商討就是找一個更恰當的地方能夠讓我們的國家安全局不再有再有修繕的一個問題然後一次解決然後找到一個好的地方讓大家都能夠不要再為了這個修繕再修繕浪費了很多的公帑"},{"start":4419.662,"end":4420.943,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是馬文君委員"},{"start":4452.344,"end":4453.511,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請蔡局長來,局長請"},{"start":4460.731,"end":4463.213,"text":"市長早我們在今天大概就我們114年度施政計畫跟預算的這個報告那就我們看到114年稅出預算在公開的部分國安局在設備跟投資向下有一個雜項設備的經費裡面特勤中心要構置槍擊偵測系統夜間套件兩套"},{"start":4490.871,"end":4494.713,"text":"那這個案子要購買的這個兩個套件總共編了1473萬元執行年度是113跟114那其中113年就今年我們大概是74萬是5%的訂金嘛那明年要編1399萬對不對"},{"start":4513.544,"end":4525.781,"text":"那可是局長你知道嗎就是說這個槍擊偵測系統的這個夜間套件其實我們在最早使用的情況是要用在第16任總統副總統的選舉那時候為什麼沒有買"},{"start":4531.228,"end":4549.329,"text":"我跟各位說明一下就我們現有的那個槍響偵測器本身也可以進行夜間的一個槍響偵測的一個作用本身是可以的因為在我們的安危八號總統大選期間一般的造勢晚會他都還是會有一些微亮的燈光所以在那種燈光之下要來偵測槍響的來源沒有問題"},{"start":4551.852,"end":4552.012,"text":"局長為什麼會有這種響電"},{"start":4580.67,"end":4606.387,"text":"因為主要就在全國大停電之類的全部都案的情況之類這是什麼樣的狀況會變成這樣對因為也有可能啦這個各種對還是國家有重大風險沒有就各種情況我們都必須要做像剛剛在做我們的預算報告也提到了我們會針對各種不同的想定來提升我們安委的能力那針對大型的停電的話假如真的是全案的話"},{"start":4606.927,"end":4622.102,"text":"不過局長您提到的這個想定是出乎我們意料之外就是說總統在什麼樣的情況之下會突然面臨到說你突然大庭店完全都是暗的情況之下然後你必須要去判斷那個槍響的來源因為那時候可能你有這樣的裝備都已經不太能夠保持這樣的安全所以"},{"start":4631.172,"end":4639.832,"text":"我還是有點 有點 不過也跟委員說明一下即使是在一般的狀況總統出席的場合要是那個區域有什麼"},{"start":4641.346,"end":4641.726,"text":"所以剛剛局長提到的並不是全貌"},{"start":4664.119,"end":4665.861,"text":"就我們在112年度在編列這個預算的時候他編了2979萬元將近3000萬那要購置的聲響槍擊偵測系統這兩套裡面其實包含了四個"},{"start":4682.338,"end":4684.799,"text":"設備4個裝備4個主要裝備第一個就是偵測模組然後這個是1400多萬然後攝影模組包含日間跟夜間就兩種都要買日間大概700多萬夜間的也700萬然後還有備用套件要兩套"},{"start":4704.747,"end":4725.686,"text":"可是到最後我們112年在決標的資訊裡面由華新工程顧問公司他以少5萬元的金額得標就將近3000萬他用2975萬只少了5萬元他得標可是這其中卻拿掉了夜間夜間攝影設備的這個部分你知道局長你聽出問題在哪裡了嗎"},{"start":4735.498,"end":4735.799,"text":"總共變了2979萬可是"},{"start":4744.994,"end":4748.876,"text":"到最後他只少了五萬可是那七百萬的夜間的這個設備沒了那你現在又編了錢要買先說明一下為什麼那時候把那個取消掉因為夜間其實總統候選人在選舉的時候其實他們碰到的狀況或者包括停電那時候停電才多就是如果用這樣的想定的時候那時候照理說應該要買的"},{"start":4770.868,"end":4775.349,"text":"特勤中心副指揮官李慶然跟委員報告當時的我們有尋商之後他的報價大概是在兩三千萬左右您剛提的數字沒錯那後來因為這個物價的波動那我們"},{"start":4792.515,"end":4792.675,"text":"最後尋商之外﹖"},{"start":4818.188,"end":4838.714,"text":"等於能力其實算是差的喔你讓他主要的一個這樣的裝備其實沒有辦法獲取然後你的金額才只少掉五萬塊他第二個可能就是那個廠商是不是用詐騙的手段他剛開始跟你報價的時候那個距離多久那如果他報價差那麼多你主要的裝備還沒有辦法獲得你還可以跟他買嗎"},{"start":4842.475,"end":4855.143,"text":"所以他第一個是你的尋商有問題第二個就是廠商用詐騙的方式讓你買了這些主要裝備以後後來在我看你明年已經今年跟明年又編了而且你是編雙倍你之前已經多給了700萬可是你現在編了又變成1400多萬要再買同樣的東西"},{"start":4866.169,"end":4871.351,"text":"1400萬是兩套的你之前也是兩套啊你之前也是編兩套我現在就是說他有一個可能就是他報價給你的時候他突然把你提高那個報價那你尋商只有一家嗎你還可以問其他家啊那為什麼會發生這樣的狀況這是我們覺得你在預算上面應該要去查清楚的後續還是希望這個部分因為你剛剛說物價波動那是那不可以接受因為你其他東西都沒有波動嗎"},{"start":4895.101,"end":4905.985,"text":"謝委員提醒我們我會後會來完整的了解這個部分查清楚那如果是同一家廠商你就更不應該跟他買因為他原來給你的報價他報700萬結果沒有辦法他突然又要升高那個價格所以你把它取消掉那你現在又編了兩倍的價格要買同樣的東西你等於用三倍欸所以如果是這樣這個廠商有問題我們希望可以查查清楚那利用一點點時間因為最近"},{"start":4921.772,"end":4927.878,"text":"大家可能全球都一樣大家都在關注川普上台以後局勢會怎麼樣變化當然大家可能都有不同的見解跟看法我們比較關注的當然還是我們台灣本身那就局長來看在經濟的波動上面因為我們對美國一直是粗糙的可是在選舉的過程當中川普總統其實一直以來"},{"start":4946.034,"end":4963.976,"text":"對我們都是非常不友善他甚至認為我們搶了他晶片的生意這個是天大的笑話因為晶片是大家台灣很多很多人才努力的成果那還有的就是說他希望我們提高軍費就這些還有我們一直對他是粗糙的"},{"start":4964.737,"end":4967.26,"text":"所以中央銀行總裁其實他針對現在的評估報告以後他也做出了一些結論那就經濟面向局長你有什麼樣的建議跟看法可以給我們的高層做一個參考"},{"start":4979.914,"end":5004.346,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為在選舉過程當中美國總統候選人一些談話我們都有在注意那後續會不會落實為政策作為這我們會繼續來關注那另一部分跟委員說明一下在川普政府任內的第1任期的4年之內事實上臺美之間的溝通合作不只是委員提到的經貿在安全上合作都非常緊密因為那4年我擔任的是國安會的副秘書長所以我們在溝通聯繫上都有非常良好的經驗"},{"start":5005.006,"end":5011.971,"text":"不過要提醒啦因為過了4年那川普在這4年當中的變化或者未來整個世界局勢的變化因為那時候沒有戰爭那現在這兩場戰爭還有台海跟周邊很多區域的緊張的關係其實都會牽動後續的影響那這個部分我們希望是沒有比較具體的可以讓高層參考以外也可以讓我們委員會或者我們全民都可以比較清楚的一些資訊好不好好謝謝謝謝委員各位請回"},{"start":5035.834,"end":5056.021,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是沈博洋委員謝謝主席邀請局長"},{"start":5064.686,"end":5093.047,"text":"謝謝主席 沈委員早這個我就直接從預算開始因為今天最早是預算的詢答時間應該沒那麼多啦那這個剛好是前幾天的這個新聞所以把它放在這一邊是這個第三季的數據它包含這些資安供給是全球的這個平均招供給的次數那裡面包含包含台灣那剛剛羅委員其實也有提到相關的這個預算所以這個部分我就不多說但目前的政府與軍事機構以台灣來講的話平均每週是五千多次"},{"start":5096.57,"end":5110.32,"text":"我現在目前看到的就是在這一個我們的預算書的第三頁的這一邊說強化資安的這一個委管工作那我這邊呢因為我自己跟資安是比較有關係但我想先問一下目前這個資安委管工作的進度為何"},{"start":5111.72,"end":5133.883,"text":"事實上對於治安的委管是本局長期以來非常重視的一項工作的業務也感謝大院的支持我們大概在過去這幾年在治安投注上的經費是有逐漸的在增加主要的目的就是在提升我們治安防護的能力剛剛羅委員也注意到了本局在這方面的防護能力讓駭客的攻擊所達到的紀錄是零"},{"start":5135.104,"end":5157.422,"text":"主要原因是我們所架設的一個網路環境就駭客比較有專業背景的經驗來看的話他們會知道要攻擊本局的一個相關的網站網頁難度會比較高那就剛剛委員所呈現的數據來講大概在過去這陣子的過程當中很多駭客侵害的對象已經慢慢地從政府機關轉移到民間或研究機構"},{"start":5158.183,"end":5173.874,"text":"而且過程當中除了我們高度關注的apt的高階駭客攻擊以外dDoS的攻擊似乎變成是這一陣子主要的一個趨勢那也才會委員在數字呈現上發現那個次數似乎有不斷增加的趨勢大概背景是這樣子"},{"start":5174.554,"end":5196.233,"text":"對,然後因為我發現在預算書這一面,就是除了這一頁以外,就是這上面,就它說維持資安人員專業的這個證照比率,那當然它是有這個有某種程度的達成,我覺得這沒有問題。但是我這邊要提醒一下就是說,我們傳統的資安在講這些紅隊的演練啊什麼等等之類的,它確實我覺得目前不管是國安局還是國防部在這一方面加強是很多。"},{"start":5196.813,"end":5211.68,"text":"但是從去年開始有一個數據我覺得是令人比較擔心這是全世界的數據就是目前來講在公司內部直接的竊取機密或者在公司內部他可能插一個USB然後直接讓他中毒"},{"start":5212.4,"end":5238.718,"text":"或者他做了某些事情配合外部的攻擊他們說現在已經快超過50%了也就是說現在呢我們在做紅隊演練的時候必須要把這個加進去那我在這一個相關的這個數據裡面就有看到目前以歐盟跟美國來講他們的平均值大概一年一家公司是花4000萬到5000萬只做內部就是只管內部控管這件事情就是內部的人譬如說他的背景的調查"},{"start":5239.438,"end":5266.518,"text":"還有現在很多根本就禁止你使用USB就是NIST就是之前在做那一個AI評比的那一個他們在去年的時候有公布了一個標準應該是2022就有了啦那去年有在把它最佳化它有一個標準就是說我們對內人員的一個管控那當然我覺得以國安局來講對內人員的管控本來就有在做但是它配合資安的對內人員的一個管控這是一個新東西所以呢我就想說這邊有講說資安人員的專業證照啦"},{"start":5268.94,"end":5286.836,"text":"因為這個專業證照還沒有包含到內部威脅那我在想說國安局可不可以先做給其他部會看就是把這個東西也把它納入這部分有跟委員報告一下資安的部分一來是資安本身硬體的部分再來就是涉及到資安的人安的部分"},{"start":5287.536,"end":5305.746,"text":"在經費的投注上我們當然花很多的經費來強化我們在硬體部分的一個建置那在人安的部分我們除了硬體上的實體隔離以外也都嚴格的禁絕我們的同仁攜帶個人的USB或相關連接電腦的設備進入營區所以我們在營區的門口是有相關的管制作為這大概是第一部分"},{"start":5306.206,"end":5307.227,"text":"尤其這種行為模式的分析現在反而變得很紅"},{"start":5324.944,"end":5339.272,"text":"所以就是說這幾年如果國安局在行為模式的分析有什麼經驗的話應該能夠給其他的國安的尤其因為現在情報部門多嘛對不對就是把這樣的機制給他們然後讓他們在編列預算的時候能夠把這一個相關的教育訓練也拿進去"},{"start":5340.092,"end":5355.508,"text":"這部分也跟委員說明報告一下因為就國安局來講我剛才跟羅美玲委員在做說明的是那我們除了去注意我們自己本身局內的治安以外我們對於除了國安局以外還有11個情報機關對於他們的資訊安全我們也非常重視"},{"start":5356.089,"end":5383.936,"text":"那這部分我們一方面是透過教育訓練或聯合工坊演練的方式來提升他們的能量我沒有記錯的話在未來這兩年三年應該培訓我們國安團隊的資安人員可以達到3000人次以上那另外一部分是在經費的補助我們也會去瞭解一下我們相關國安團隊的資安環境到底有沒有需要再測進的地方那有必要的話在硬體設備還有在相關的技術經驗的分享上經費的"},{"start":5385.236,"end":5410.343,"text":"投注上我們都有在協助我們其他的國安單位因為這邊我們就不講預算的細項但是就像我講的現在各公司尤其是大公司大概就是平均一年花4千萬到5千萬只做這個Internal Threat那我相信國安局在這方面的預算有可能不一定夠所以呢這個就是等到我們在講細部預算的時候呢我們譬如說先怕這個專業證照這個部分先把新標準放進去這是一定本來就要做而且這跟本來局內在做的事情是一致的"},{"start":5410.843,"end":5425.957,"text":"接下來我們可以去看一下國外花這個四五千萬到底他們是花在哪一些部分哪一些是局裡面還缺的我覺得可以在細項的時候我們來討論這件事情這個我就先要跳過這個就是我剛剛講的NIST的一些新標準這個我都先跳過一下"},{"start":5426.877,"end":5455.726,"text":"現在目前來說除了我剛剛講的就是不管是教育的訓練、內容等等之類現在目前美國是有這個NITTF英國是CPNI那歐盟是透過這個NIS2的這個指令所以他們都有一些特殊的一些資安治理架構那這個東西呢的確稍微還是比較新一點我在跟各個這個大公司尤其是美國的大公司的資安長在討論的時候他們說這不是只有在國安單位缺樓現在連有些企業做得都還不夠"},{"start":5456.511,"end":5474.139,"text":"所以這個是未來的大方向所以這一個部分呢我想會在下一個年度的時候我們可能會對不管是國安局國防部要求就他可能甚至需要有一些應變小組啊什麼等等之類的在內部做創設那接下來我還有另外一件事情我剛突然想到就是因為雖然今天"},{"start":5474.699,"end":5498.952,"text":"我們沒有國土辦就是關鍵基礎設施但因為關鍵基礎設施跟國安局還是有非常強的關係但因為關鍵基礎設施我們現在人力是有不足的他面臨的狀況跟國防部有點類似人力不足我覺得國安局還好但是那個關鍵基礎設施會那他們人力不足的時候呢他們會更多時候去找廠商那他一旦找廠商之後呢廠商有沒有符合我們剛剛那些規範那完全是另外一件事了"},{"start":5499.252,"end":5524.382,"text":"就像我們剛剛講我們教育訓練什麼對其他的情報機關會去協助這個都有但廠商未必有這個能力有些廠商他也不夠大他甚至有些他只是譬如說保全公司那他如果對因為他們畢竟譬如說他在巡邏關鍵金屬設施啊他一定會有一些機密啊他的那個他每天的班表啊什麼等等之類的這個有時候呢從與其從外部駭客攻擊我看直接找這個保全公司大概機密就可以洩露了"},{"start":5524.742,"end":5542.783,"text":"所以這個有可能必須也要國安局要嘗試去協助就是說我們在契約訂定上面我們可能沒辦法直接做這個公司但是假設我們的關鍵基礎設施有外包的他外包的那一個契約上面有一些標準的要求是不是可以一致的就是我們局裡面做到的要求我們在契約上要求其他廠商也做到這樣"},{"start":5543.323,"end":5559.27,"text":"這部分我們可以來提供給其他部會來參考那我想委員很正確的提出來了就關鍵基礎設施的維護現在可能有很多單位都非常重視偽商那這偽商的部分假如說在資安管理的授權權限過高的話他很有可能會造成一些資安疑慮的問題"},{"start":5560.731,"end":5587.257,"text":"那另外怎麼樣透過契約的方式來讓廠商這個部分有更大的一個權責必須要負起相關治安外卸的責任這部分可能契約要來加強那再來就是相關的委外的廠商他有沒有涉入背景的查查那這在我們國安單位我們向來是列為最優先的工作但這部分在政府其他單位感覺上這方面的知覺還不太夠那這部分我們在提醒各單位應該要來注意這部分的重要性"},{"start":5587.577,"end":5588.257,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩蔡局長"},{"start":5620.98,"end":5638.879,"text":"謝謝主席 王委員早局長其實我們在國家情報的收集有蠻大的一塊部分是來自於跟友盟之間的交換這個很重要交換不只是為了擴大獲取情報的面積還有一個很重要是去verify第三方意見來確認這情報是否真實"},{"start":5642.881,"end":5671.058,"text":"目前美國政局在經歷變動日本的政局也剛變動完成也就台灣對外最重要的關係現在在地緣政治上都有一些變化我們不能天真去相信以往怎麼樣未來就怎麼樣但我們也要做好一些接觸跟準備今天早上川普正式任命了Rubio這台灣的老朋友擔任國務卿那我再加上兩個人"},{"start":5672.519,"end":5695.596,"text":"這讓他的國安團隊大概都成型了另外一位是這一個CIA的局長雷奇克里夫另外還有國安顧問Michael Woods當然昨天還公佈了國防部長你對這一些川普目前任命的國安團隊國安局有沒有對他們的"},{"start":5696.681,"end":5701.665,"text":"這部分剛剛在進來會議室之前媒體有在關切那我的態度是我們不針對個別的人士來評論這畢竟要尊重外國政府的一個政治的運作那但是就整體的人士任命有沒有哪些意涵我們可以提出一些觀察"},{"start":5721.099,"end":5749.827,"text":"對 那我們認為可能未來美國新政府上來之後應該施政上會有兩個主軸一個部分就美國優先那另外一個部分就是遏制中國那這兩個大概就是主要的施政的一個重點那國安局當然會這個判斷其實很重要因為美國在未來4年川普的路線會影響到我們的國家安全重要嗎當然影響到我們在地緣政治的外交的合作也很重要還會影響到我們的經濟對台灣來講經濟其實是國安的一部分是"},{"start":5750.247,"end":5764.764,"text":"我看了這些名單像都有參議員、眾議員出身然後裡面大概第一個對川普的忠誠度大概是很前面的考量因素也就是他能夠貫徹川普的意志"},{"start":5765.325,"end":5790.399,"text":"第二是對中國的態度很強硬像這個CIA的這一位局長他其實前兩三年是擔任美國的情報總監我相信國安局跟他有接觸那這一位雷克里夫他曾經把中國定義為美國是中國是美國第二次世界大戰以來最大的威脅我相信局長是外交出身的這個應該有了解"},{"start":5791.019,"end":5819.662,"text":"另外呢白宮的國安顧問Michael Woods他在眾議院的時候他是對中政策的這個特殊委員會的成員那我們也跟他有所接觸他也是加速對台提供軍售物資的Tiger Team的領導人之一然後他也是對中國強硬派所以你剛才分析也對啦第一個他們是對中強硬派第二個其實他們還有一個共通的特色Rubio反左"},{"start":5820.863,"end":5840.26,"text":"對於美國的左傾他們其實是那個態度蠻一致的第三個是對非法移民的態度這大概是這一個團隊的定性那我接下來請教我們局長國安局以及國安局所轄的勤工單位跟目前川普建構起來的國安團隊過去有沒有接觸的經驗"},{"start":5841.101,"end":5842.522,"text":"你們跟雷克里夫有沒有合作過?他以前是情報總監"},{"start":5861.465,"end":5862.546,"text":"請委員可以理解"},{"start":5886.029,"end":5910.03,"text":"這個我們在這些接觸當中那事實上也要注意到一些訊息因為目前在日本也有產生就是第一個移美第二個移川這個川普那第三個會質疑我在日本的媒體看到質疑日本本身跟美國的關係在台灣就變成移美移川移賴啦比方說這一個"},{"start":5912.762,"end":5927.385,"text":"金片這個事情我不知道國安局有沒有掌握他他完整的翻譯我去看了幾次尤其最近一次接受這個Joe Podcaster的訪問他其實內容是講說台灣掌握了搶走的全世界大多數的金片生意"},{"start":5928.707,"end":5944.444,"text":"臺灣因為臺灣做得很好因為他當時是對他的政治對手在攻擊因為美國有一群糟糕的官僚他的全文是這一個啦他是反對補貼主義的那對川普的單邊主義也事實上如果我們回頭去看QUAD"},{"start":5945.785,"end":5973.753,"text":"QWAD是在陸克文2007年安倍提出2008年澳洲的陸克文總理因為中國的影響退出後來到2017年重新啟動這個QWAD四邊對話是川普應該是19還是20年把四邊對話要提升到區域安全共同願景那時候是川普派他的國務卿蓬佩奧才有亞洲北約是這樣一個脈絡下來的就未必都是純單邊"},{"start":5975.313,"end":5995.455,"text":"所以川普將就任他的國安團隊也開始在交接當中我希望國安局跟你們所督導的勤工單位要跟美方可能在未來工作的步調上還有灰色地帶啦AI啦網路的衝突上要有一些接觸你們目前有沒有啟動這樣的計畫"},{"start":5996.616,"end":6018.107,"text":"對我們事實上跟國際有門跟理念相近國家在戰略溝通跟情報聯繫上都非常的緊密那正如委員所提到的很多聯繫的重點一來是在中共的軍事的活動跟動態它已經變成是一個不單是台海的議題也是整個區域安全的議題那這是一個重點那另外是對於各種複合式的威脅還有灰色地帶的操作"},{"start":6018.587,"end":6042.822,"text":"那很多的國際網友他們也在擔心這樣的議題因為在民主選舉過程當中假如有境外的勢力在操弄國內的民主選舉的話那這對民主價值跟體制是一個非常大的危害美國他們未來會投入資源在特別AI對國家安全的影響比如說有一個課題就是我們怎麼去辨識這是正確的我今天本來要播那個沈伯陽的影片"},{"start":6044.147,"end":6068.084,"text":"我那影片把它拍得太可愛了那是假的啦我還看到很多台灣名人的影片在那邊講一些話他就AI生成的deep fake那這些東西怎麼去辨識假的另外怎麼樣去掌握國家安全相關被AI攻擊做情報偵測我覺得美國有這樣的政策形成台灣面對威脅的第一線我們應該要投入資源"},{"start":6068.564,"end":6090.196,"text":"我現在跳到最後一個題目因為時間有限本期長期關心我們國安局特勤人員的保險意外保險我相信特勤中心應該有印象當年我不是去年我第9屆開始就發現真正面對威脅的國安特勤人員的保險的保額是憲兵的三分之一"},{"start":6091.345,"end":6091.465,"text":"那在"},{"start":6111.08,"end":6135.895,"text":"國軍的部分在今年有修訂草案國軍特殊勤務指的是縣特啦就是特殊勤務團體意外保險執行任務因公意外死亡呢把一千萬又調高到兩千萬就縣兵這邊調高了那我們有一個特勤出去內中外衛這個當然就會有不同的單位組成你看下一頁前一頁"},{"start":6137.909,"end":6163.519,"text":"下一頁下一頁所以呢我們看整個目前在特種勤務的狀況下是形成憲兵已經擬調高到兩千萬那我們經過這幾年的努力把這個我們的維安特勤人員逐漸走向一千萬我現在請教局長最後的一個問題那管局有沒有計畫要調高到兩千萬跟憲兵特勤勤務一樣"},{"start":6164.365,"end":6176.416,"text":"對,謝謝委員的關心,長期以來對我們特勤的支持,那也在委員的督導之下,我們已經調高飽和到一千萬,那至於未來要不要再比照來提高到兩千萬,這我們來評估,那預算的編列也從...我知道,我知道,會比較對,會比較發生了意外的時候,今天兩千,今天幾千,我們當然不希望發生嘛,但我覺得"},{"start":6183.863,"end":6194.05,"text":"人命無價我們都希望不要發生但該給我們的弟兄們應該合理的保護應該要一視同仁那憲兵你調高到2000萬他如果獲准"},{"start":6195.09,"end":6218.063,"text":"沒有道理我們的特勤人員還是維持到一千萬那保費調高而已那個佔整整體金額其實不高就不要在同一個護衛圈同樣的保鏢特種勤務有兩千萬跟一千萬差異這個不好以往是一千萬跟三百五十萬的差異那好不容易調到一樣了那我不知道為什麼憲兵跑得比較快那國安局跑得比較慢"},{"start":6218.683,"end":6246.172,"text":"我建議局長這一個尤其特勤中心如果憲兵調到2000了也找到保險公司了我們沒有理由維持在1000好不好請局長注意到這件事情我們來特別注意好謝謝我們接下來進行詢答委員紅森漢委員"},{"start":6250.216,"end":6252.358,"text":"好想請國安局的蔡局長好黃委員長局長我想要先來問一下這兩天這個在媒體上面大家都看到我們這個前海軍的艦長呂律師那跑到這個珠海的航展上面"},{"start":6276.477,"end":6293.274,"text":"這一番言論目前讓我們看到在中國的社群媒體上面大家在瘋傳他的那一席的話的話我就不想多說了你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去這邊講這話你覺得妥當嗎?"},{"start":6298.668,"end":6324.468,"text":"對,確實比較不妥當,那也有可能淪為中共在對台政治作戰操作的一個主要的一個訴求。居然我們看到這件事情其實有它很不尋常的地方。第一個,其實它當然是一個海軍艦長,但其實它並不是這個將級以上的軍階。但是中國大批的媒體從各地跑去採訪它。"},{"start":6326.595,"end":6345.049,"text":"採訪他以後再把他的影片現在放在中國網路上面其實坦白說我們很我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑這是不是就是一個由中共在後面導的一場戲那李律師只是這上面被交付任務的演員"},{"start":6347.492,"end":6370.001,"text":"可是現在我們遇到的問題比較大是說就像前幾天大家在談到吳斯懷的條款可是確實我們現在在這兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九之三條其實我想這個局長應該很清楚我們的這個條文是寫說這個有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員"},{"start":6371.57,"end":6393.507,"text":"那因為呂理詩他不是少將以上的人員所以他看起來就逃過了這個九字三條我們這個法規的規範所以從這幾個訊息裡面你甚至會懷疑是不是中共就是特地去找一個不是將級以上的這樣子的退役的人員來說這樣子的話"},{"start":6397.013,"end":6423.277,"text":"這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞?我們尊重委員的一個判斷對於一些退役的將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制這不是尊重的問題我現在的意思是說接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的"},{"start":6424.744,"end":6439.537,"text":"退役的軍人來講類似的話或來做類似的表達他看準我就看準你的這個兩人關係條例93的條文我要閃過你這個條文所以我專門找非降級以上的啊"},{"start":6440.407,"end":6460.496,"text":"局長,你覺得有沒有可能?可能性不能排除啦那這也凸顯到我們在法律的規範部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為局長我覺得國安局應該針對這些新的中共的手段跟發展其實我覺得我們應該要抱持著隨時對於條文要修訂尤其是加嚴的"},{"start":6462.057,"end":6462.257,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6479.096,"end":6500.761,"text":"是對的臺灣啊我覺得這是非常非常非常不妥當而且我們覺得是要要求在不管是軍方也好或者安全單位也好我覺得是絕對要非常嚴格的紀律上面的規範的事情這是第一個想跟部長討論第二部長我想局長上個月底我們也看到福建省發布了第三波的惠台利民的政策尤其是針對"},{"start":6502.261,"end":6520.282,"text":"．．．"},{"start":6520.422,"end":6536.855,"text":"邱部長強調說他對於臺灣的這個醫療環境的方向有信心表達有信心局長你覺得對於留住臺灣醫護人員你有沒有信心"},{"start":6537.655,"end":6565.261,"text":"我們尊重那個衛福部長的一個評估跟判斷那但就這問題來講也跟委員說明一下我們有注意到那福建現在已經變成是中共要推動兩岸促容的一個樣板的一個省份所以他提出非常多所謂的會台的計畫提供各種的工作機會也提供像委員剛所提到的有一些津貼的補助不過跟委員說明的是因為中國大陸他現在的狀況地方政府為了配合中央政策常常會提出很多這一類的計畫"},{"start":6566.161,"end":6592.59,"text":"但他到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題因為地方政府他希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助經貼的補助所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫但是要跟委員說明的是目前中共的大陸的經濟情勢就業狀況本身並不好那他對於我們呃國人相關的一個吸引力也不斷的在降低當中所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對台在進行統戰的一個動作"},{"start":6593.77,"end":6612.338,"text":"這部分特別跟委員說明一下先要肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們這個在國家整體的安全上面的一個隱患因為過去其實我們對護理人才流失的問題他常常都比較定位成是一個勞動的問題或者是一個醫療照顧上面的問題"},{"start":6613.718,"end":6635.078,"text":"但我們確實現在很擔心說現在中國可能是不是在利用臺灣部分領域的這些弱點變成是在打擊臺灣的社會韌性或者是在這個對於你社會韌性在做更進一步的掏空的攻擊那這如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的這個侵犯的話"},{"start":6636.525,"end":6655.566,"text":"這就是安全的問題了所以我不知道局長你有沒有把你剛剛這些相關的資訊其實讓衛福部也知道這真的已經是可能已經是安全上面的問題尤其是我認為國安局可能要多花一點力氣就是說到底中國做這些事情它的動機"},{"start":6657.386,"end":6684.384,"text":"他的動機為何,這些相關的情資我覺得也希望能夠更進一步的收集也包括要去掌握那我們對於議題,當然護理人才流失類似的問題或者我們專業人才會不會被流失或者被中國吸引這當然一直以來都是一個很大的議題也不全然只是國安局的問題所以我這邊其實接下來有幾個部分的要求也希望這個局長可以參考第一個"},{"start":6685.885,"end":6706.58,"text":"我們必須評估中國惠台措施是否有危害台灣醫療安全包括社會任性的意圖這部分要請國安局更審慎的、積極的來評估那第二個是要針對這部分應該要進行系統性的清搜那也包括也很多人在講說中國接受惠台措施將台灣內政化影響"},{"start":6707.14,"end":6724.783,"text":"各國對於臺灣的認知要有相關的因應以上這幾點當然有些部分主管機關是在衛福部我們都清楚可是就安全方面的評估甚至是因應的建議我覺得這部分也希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來"},{"start":6725.464,"end":6752.42,"text":"所以不管是我們在前面講到鋁理師也好或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員的這樣子的動作也好其實都是對我們這些專業人才其實某部分用一種吸引或統戰的方式這個局長也很清楚我是覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應而不是只是在自己原本的那個視角的範疇裡面那可能是不夠的好不好對"},{"start":6753.16,"end":6753.86,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員徐曉欣委員"},{"start":6788.529,"end":6790.598,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請蔡局長"},{"start":6798.241,"end":6821.132,"text":"謝謝主席 薛委員早今天呢我們主要是針對這個公開部分的國安局的預算書那我看了一下在我們113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表裡面呢第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用的部分那包含是呢大家都認為就是當時有一個這個附帶決議寫到"},{"start":6825.474,"end":6850.901,"text":"美國國安局國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展美國也在國防部112年的8月成立了AI工作小組用來包含國防科技發展國家維護等等當時就希望你們三個月內提出向立法院外交委員會國防委員會的報告"},{"start":6853.562,"end":6877.75,"text":"那你們也寫了一些辦理的情形那中間呢也提到了就是說在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安 國安局要招募反制人才可是我們在你們今年的這個預算書公開部分裡面那相關的只有看到了這個其他網路空間工房培訓場域統裁演習管理軟體維護等經費1100萬而已"},{"start":6880.771,"end":6897.709,"text":"那我想問一下就是說在今年的明年的114年的預算有關於去年大家提的附帶決議就是這個所謂的AI中心等等相關的一些預算來說的話那為什麼沒有在裡面有做相關的提供"},{"start":6898.029,"end":6898.749,"text":"那請問那請問這些AI小組齁那"},{"start":6923.339,"end":6943.321,"text":"他們研究過後對於實際在臺灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題對那這個部分我們在AI的應用上一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的延期因為AI的作業速度會比較快"},{"start":6944.062,"end":6944.162,"text":"．審查委員"},{"start":6961.567,"end":6961.587,"text":"．審查"},{"start":6976.544,"end":6978.246,"text":"這部分大概分兩個層面來看一個部分假如說那個AI的傳善他有涉及到違法"},{"start":6993.78,"end":7019.123,"text":"那這個部分我們會依請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦第二部分假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平台它本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話我們會很積極的來跟社群平台做檢舉讓社群平台可以把它下架那第三個部分是假如它AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的那我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息快速澄清"},{"start":7019.503,"end":7035.479,"text":"但是局長就如您剛說的因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多我們先放一下影片給大家看這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜他就被放出說一個影片大概可以看一下"},{"start":7035.979,"end":7052.985,"text":"我先講這是假訊息他並沒有做這樣的發言可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面但他講的話跟底下的字幕還有他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音但是他底下從來沒有講過這個話"},{"start":7055.126,"end":7075.985,"text":"然後呢這個影音呢就在包含是Line上面網路上面很快速的轉傳這個呢高委員他自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事的可是他的轉傳速度仍然是非常快而且這一兩週以來不只這一件還有好幾件那呢他對於這個當事人來說是造成第一個一種傷害"},{"start":7076.966,"end":7092.411,"text":"第二因為這個AI做得非常像你就算對口型也對不太出來所以我們有很多的民眾他是在一個誤會之下才去做轉傳的他並沒有惡意但他真的相信這個高委員他有說過這些話所以他們轉傳之後有可能從受害者變成加害者也就是說高委員他可能會試圖想要他當然沒有但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉"},{"start":7104.935,"end":7112.523,"text":"可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的這個影片所以我們想要問的是針對這一兩週以來的類似這樣的攻擊您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI的身為攻擊那國安局又要用什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在台灣"},{"start":7126.518,"end":7143.519,"text":"對這個影片我們有在網路上注意到那似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片那在進行後製來並跟他講話的內容那這第一部分的說明那第二部分是我們注意到他傳善的管道一個部分是我人提到的賴的"},{"start":7144.5,"end":7144.8,"text":"國安局具體的做法"},{"start":7171.327,"end":7197.662,"text":"對那這部分我們在掌握相關的狀況的話剛有說明到網絡的傳散的一個管道這是我們的責任要來確認的那假如說他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話那當然我們也會尊重當事人他是不是有一些法律的作為那到我們的相關的司法檢查機關或國安單位我們是有相關的系統可以來辨識證明說他的影音是偽製的"},{"start":7198.582,"end":7219.617,"text":"這部分到時候在法律的公防或偵辦的過程當中就比較能確定過程的刑法。可是這樣的話呢,不是啊,因為局長,這樣的話他比如說好那我假設我是高委員那我去因為有人傳散這個那我去走入司法去提告可是這些民眾他們也不是惡意的他們也是相信了這些所謂他不知道他無法去辨認這個身為那他會從受害者變成加害者那這方面我們國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷的傳散"},{"start":7227.543,"end":7244.28,"text":"我們包含是在預算裡面我們的編列還有其實這個過去我特別講我們113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了那請問這附帶決議我們處理的如何在去年一整年乃至於明年來說我們要怎麼樣的去做規劃抑制這類事情的發生"},{"start":7244.68,"end":7271.316,"text":"這是剛剛在書面口頭報告的時候提到未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對台認知作戰滲透作為的揭露而會是本局一個重要工作不過要特別謝謝委員可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來因為這個也是一個社會教育社會提出的過程我建議你們要有一個公開的平台不管是以國安局為主或者是跟其他的單位共同的來協作並不一定要國安局作為主要的這個"},{"start":7272.917,"end":7273.077,"text":"對,沒有錯應該的"},{"start":7290.538,"end":7290.798,"text":"謝謝徐委員徐委員質詢這個題目很重要很好"},{"start":7317.061,"end":7321.278,"text":"因為任何人都有可能成為受害者這跟黨派無關任何人都有可能被偽造"},{"start":7322.714,"end":7349.609,"text":"國家元首可能被偽造下達錯誤的指令天災的時候可能被偽造所以剛才徐委員提出來說我希望我看到國安局的處理不是研究辦理如果確定是偽造的你們美國那個講的嘛要先辨識完你要有delete的能力你不應該讓錯誤的東西持續傷害任何人那個人我不管是誰他只要是被偽造的我們應該有個機制要讓他從網路上這個錯誤的東西不能再散播否則齁那太慢了啦"},{"start":7351.79,"end":7352.511,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員陳冠廷委員"},{"start":7390.558,"end":7391.042,"text":"你好 我們請局長來 局長請"},{"start":7398.134,"end":7403.135,"text":"國安局公開預算佔年度預算的比例僅不到兩成相比之下國防部及外交部的機密佔比分別是5.12%及6.01%國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算"},{"start":7426.061,"end":7440.052,"text":"那剛才我們的這個機密的報告裡面大概是10分鐘15分鐘然後接下來就把這些東西收回去那局長你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎還是局長你要說我們會派員到我們的辦公室來去意義的檢視對不對因為你會到我們的辦公室來去跟我們來說明這個我是聽到很多的這個不同的單位在講這件事情"},{"start":7448.578,"end":7476.935,"text":"但是我想請教一下,到我們的單位來說明的時候是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告?應該是這樣,機密報告只有立法委員本人那你的國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎?對,我們都有審...是你寫的嗎?當然不是嘛,是整個幕僚機構寫的嘛同樣的我們的整個質詢能夠是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎?當然是整個辦公室嘛我們的揭秘層級是非常的混亂的耶就是說你認為說一個立法委員可以把你們八成,國安局八成的預算"},{"start":7477.936,"end":7492.083,"text":"你們跟我報告然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來我的這些國會助理不能看因為為什麼因為沒有相關的你我一直講說機密的這個機密層級的這種我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的這個設定"},{"start":7493.403,"end":7507.111,"text":"現在就還是沒有我商量到現在我們這件事情從國防部從外交部到國安局我們提過了幾次每次說我們現在在妥善的在研究我們會提出一個更好的方式跟美國的這種針對機密風險的這種層級來去接軌這個東西我從2016年我在國安會到現在已經聽了大概8年到9年了8年到9年之後我們還是同樣在回歸這樣的議題"},{"start":7517.921,"end":7520.202,"text":"委員會報告國安局數十億數百億的預算所以你必須要劃分報案國會幕僚都必須要他的揭秘層級的確認這個部分可不可以局長"},{"start":7536.511,"end":7551.104,"text":"可不可以來檢討一下這到底是誰要負責國安局還是調查局還是國防部我無法知道因為每一個人都說這個我們內部有自己的機制你做好你的機制他做好他的機制但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛"},{"start":7551.804,"end":7552.745,"text":"國安的工作包括國安國防外交確實他有高度的機密性"},{"start":7570.582,"end":7592.869,"text":"就本局來講會編列機密的預算主要是依照國安局的組織法第9條的規定這是法律的授權至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣也可以提供一些國外的經驗給委員參考以歐洲國家來講幾乎是百分之百的機密沒有對外公開的公開預算歐洲國家是這樣的做法就美國來講的話我們公開的預算已經是美國公開情報單位公開預算的好幾倍"},{"start":7600.494,"end":7618.472,"text":"議員提到的另外一部分就是所謂的Security clearance的問題到底立法院這邊除了委員以外還有哪些的幕僚可以來涉密的部分那這可能我們要再尊重一下貴院這邊的相關的一個安排貴院這邊相關的安排對"},{"start":7620.254,"end":7635.544,"text":"這是需要討論的,我們有我們的揭秘等級,但立法院這邊的揭秘等級要跟（誰負責審核（對接,這要對接 怎麼樣對接?怎麼樣對接嗎?就是局長你說這個交給立法院,立法院有相關的國安的這種相關的幕僚單位來去判斷我們有或沒有嗎?"},{"start":7637.225,"end":7659.581,"text":"這個弄到最後就是每一個部門各行其事嘛那回到國防部之前不是有一個案件嗎聯政署的這個三等這個辦事員然後來到這邊來到國防部由聯政署派員的那把所有的機密設置這種內網這樣全部這樣子公開來然後到最後來說這個經過一個多月兩個多月之後他揭秘的這個狀況是怎麼樣還是沒有答覆欸我們部長還是用"},{"start":7660.522,"end":7675.551,"text":"其他的方式這樣子的話一圈然後說這個我們會好謹慎的來判斷這個我們尊重法務部什麼所以是誰設定他的解密成績這個由我們國防部我們我們會在建制然後建制講完的時候就就部長馬上就說沒有沒有沒有我們已經已經有了我們要加強"},{"start":7676.511,"end":7694.689,"text":"所以整個內部的資訊是混亂的這個東西你要好好的去做啦我是認真講就是說最好的方式就是現在開始重新啦從國安局國防部所有的情治單位至少有一個一致的系統我們來好好的做好不好我是認真覺得國安局可能要擔負起這樣子的責任啦那第二個部分"},{"start":7695.55,"end":7698.092,"text":"昨天有那個金融時報有說這個4800億的這個軍售這個軍售案那昨天經過這個我們國防部部長顧部長他是說沒有相關的這樣的狀況沒有說已經有提到清單這樣的部分可是這邊有說一個他有說有這樣的這個情勢啊這個是誰啊"},{"start":7719.226,"end":7719.946,"text":"市長我知道這個"},{"start":7749.581,"end":7771.622,"text":"有可能是這個他的訊息來源有錯誤嗎?所以說沒有這個National Security Official嗎?沒有這個國安高層嗎?這個國安高層是誰?為什麼他可以決定在昨天的這個質詢裡面部長是說這個是很機敏的東西欸不適合公開欸可是怎麼可以適合到跟金融時報跟外媒就可以公開是誰決定他的揭秘層級跟他可以分享的層級"},{"start":7775.836,"end":7793.824,"text":"國安高層說的算還是誰說的算?你訂定的機密跟不是機密其實那個落差非常大欸其實我們今年一整年看到所有國防部跟這個國安局有些時候列機密的東西是全部都可以在國際關係討論第一章都可以看到甚至是序章就可以看到"},{"start":7794.344,"end":7821.286,"text":"所以是誰來定所以你說他是在泄密你說某個國會議員他這個泄密可是他得到的資訊不是從國安局這邊來的他們是從其他的管道來的所以變成說真正有在泄密的這種危機的時候我們沒有辦法去應處真的需要知道狀況的沒有辦法去監督如果說這個國安高層講的是真的那就表示說內部的溝通不順暢嘛國防部長不知道國安高層在講什麼東西嘛"},{"start":7822.949,"end":7828.543,"text":"如果是假的話那你要跟金融時報嚴正的跟他們講說不可以這樣子造謠影響到我國跟美國之間的軍購嗎?"},{"start":7830.422,"end":7854.339,"text":"如果說我們這個也是機密那個也是機密表示內部溝通不順暢外度監督不能夠去監督沒有這樣的機制我們現在從頭到尾其實我們現在接觸到的東西都是這樣子我必須再強調齁所有預算的審查不是國會議員一個人的工作他是一個辦公室甚至是數個辦公室他聯合要去來去看這個資訊適不適合我應該不用再講說錢上銷的流貫軍社"},{"start":7856.46,"end":7876.819,"text":"這一個案例都有嘛國安密帳投敵我們沒有辦法監督誰有辦法監督就我們還是有一個監督的力量在但是這個監督的力量是必須在合理的範圍不是說我要什麼機密都可以包含國會議員我自己本身也必須要有相關的涉密層級我才能夠看到機密不是說因為我是立法委員就可以看到"},{"start":7878.086,"end":7902.152,"text":"民選的這些官員當然是有他去這個接密的這個層級在但是除此之外他也必須只在他所工作的範圍內能夠得到這樣子的授權許可我這個東西講了很多這個必須要跨部會來去做聯席會議不然我們都在講假的我上次問外交部說奇怪有些公文這樣子出去你們這個涉密層級是誰訂的我說這個其實應該要國安局來做什麼的"},{"start":7905.314,"end":7911.083,"text":"不是嘛 各自都講各自的話 這個不是這個 你們外交部內部應該比較了解你們這個機密的狀況 可是這樣推來推去"},{"start":7913.669,"end":7914.529,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員賴世保委員"},{"start":7945.946,"end":7949.068,"text":"謝謝主席 各位先進 請一下蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 那委員長局長早 這個我們看到現在APEC正在開嘛是不是"},{"start":7965.216,"end":7984.935,"text":"那看到說這個習近平跟拜登在APEC要談有關於他們政權交接這段時間簡單過啦用白話文講啦就是政權交接這段時間叫老共不要軍演啦盡可能不要軍演是不是這樣"},{"start":7985.717,"end":7989.659,"text":"有提到拜習會確實會提到美方對於台海情勢穩定的關注有有這樣的希望政權交接不要軍演"},{"start":8004.921,"end":8030.757,"text":"我原先這樣解釋,我們尊重,但他原來的條文是這樣不是尊重我嗎?白宮的公告的內容是說會表達對台海安全穩定的關切關切嗎?這個是不是可以解讀啊?這個大家都知道啦,但是我希望從你嘴巴裡面講在現在拜登也好,未來的川普還是要中美兩大國共管台灣,這國有成立嗎?"},{"start":8032.25,"end":8038.674,"text":"委員的觀察我們都尊重,你們的觀察我們都尊重,同意啦,不要尊重要同意,你同意嗎?我們尊重你這樣說都死你氣,你知道嗎?我們都保留了,都抓不到,那些北省都保留,你是有泥鰍吧?泥鰍很難抓的"},{"start":8062.682,"end":8071.569,"text":"臺灣的安全是等於是看中美兩大國我們要話聲一下啊老師他們兩個人講話林希尼也在那裏啊你沒有交代一下賴總統沒有交代一下林希尼說我關在這裏我要出聲一下"},{"start":8081.437,"end":8102.075,"text":"請各位說明一下APEC的專案國安局大概負責的是維安的安全這部份是我們的職責那其他部份可能假如涉及到外交部門的話應該由外交部門來對外說明比較恰當這個到底哪合理的說掉呀所以你就很難抓住啊這個沒有第一個我要強調的一點在這裡國會電腦我要強調大家都看到等於台灣的安全中美兩大國來共同共管"},{"start":8109.932,"end":8112.759,"text":"我們是當事人我們要發聲啊!我們要講話啊!結果我們都不講話就變成他們兩個決定我們的前途喔!"},{"start":8122.964,"end":8145.703,"text":"臺美之間的溝通非常緊密跟順暢只要美國有資深官員跟對岸有任何接觸慣例上來講都會讓我方來知道這部分要由外交部門來說明我們跟對岸的溝通現在一邊通一邊不通這才是一個很悲哀的地方這個東西你都不講我們再看另外一個題目"},{"start":8147.282,"end":8169.728,"text":"現在來講臺灣遭受到網路攻擊多不多有在增加對於各樣的網路攻擊除了防禦追蹤以外有沒有人力及時下架對方的站點有沒有可能委員講的是那個所謂認知作戰假訊息嗎對假訊息以及暗網的情緒的部分等等"},{"start":8170.228,"end":8192.012,"text":"有沒有人力有沒有人力有有有因為這部分對因為這部分只要假訊息他違反我們的政府的法令的話國家法令的話我們是可以來進行檢舉要求他下架第一部分第二部分假如假訊息是違反了社群平台網站管理的規定的話我們也可以跟社群平台來檢舉請他下架有這個機制對按網你有沒有辦法人力別管"},{"start":8192.492,"end":8196.353,"text":"國防部情報局一列一缸子的長官通通在暗網裡面可以買賣價格多少呢260塊USDT就是要太大幣啊260塊等於差不多260塊美金"},{"start":8219.943,"end":8235.144,"text":"國防部情報局的相關的長官的資料各自的資料了都在這裡都在這裡260塊USDT這一部分國安局你們是管情報的對不過有抓一抓吧這個"},{"start":8236.286,"end":8254.823,"text":"對,我們會注意這些船扇背後有沒有一些有系統的操作這第一部分那第二部分那個資料情資正確與否是不是真的資訊應該要由國防部來經過查證之後再來看是不是我看了一下都好真勒我拖行的不要念了這個不要念了這個你要我給你啦東西260塊台達幣可以買鋼紙你開幾妹"},{"start":8260.868,"end":8264.012,"text":"我開始要去看了,開始要...好啦,謝謝,謝謝阿賴斯巴委員,請回,謝謝"},{"start":8268.147,"end":8296.238,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在蘇清璇委員蘇清璇委員蘇清璇委員不在鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在郭育晴委員郭育晴委員郭育晴委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員吳思瑤委員不在洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員不在邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在"},{"start":8296.818,"end":8312.404,"text":"業源之委員．業源之委員不在今日已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員陳永康委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":8320.347,"end":8339.455,"text":"委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從其所定以上如有涉及機密部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理令本席補充說明"},{"start":8341.036,"end":8357.768,"text":"我們的紅頭文件也就是不管是國安局國防部機密文件只能限委員本人來詢問閱讀這是根據秦公法以及我們國防委員會在第9屆經委員會提案決議因為當時曾經爆發有"},{"start":8363.151,"end":8390.377,"text":"有委員辦公室的同仁閱讀機密文件所以當時有一個決議的背景也有一個法律的依據那我本席也是贊成把適當的人做適當的classify做機密的分等但在沒有分等之前請依照法律規定處理那114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分本日完成報告及詢答"},{"start":8391.837,"end":8412.25,"text":"那接下來的日期請本會委員及委員的辦公室和幕僚同仁注意預算有關國安局預算提案請於11月21日下午5點前截止收件預計12月4日進行竹案審查本日會議到此為止散會"}]}},{"id":"156905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bb8743ca342cb99ac98e230418d59f82f5ae72a34e051796e13a137a43a01e8185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:48:00 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其實坦白講是我最不能接受的當然我也必須說 尤其全國性的公投到底門檻要設計多高 要設計到什麼程度以及公投選務如何簡化 這些都是可以討論的問題 不要舉個例子"},{"start":108.925,"end":125.347,"text":"中選會他用兩個理由來反對公投並大選第一就是說2018你看造成選務延宕所以不能公投並大選那第二就是說事跟人不可以混在一起投所以公投不可以並大選我們先來看第一個第一個我就要講"},{"start":126.428,"end":142.6,"text":"期待新德總統在當行政院院長針對2018年的選舉所造成的選務的延宕他歸納是兩大因素中選會事前規劃不周、事終處變不急他是規劃認為中選會是自己做不好"},{"start":143.772,"end":165.208,"text":"結果 要求中選會檢討這是賴清德當行政院長下的令你中選會要檢討這次檢討 兩個結果第一個 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謝謝那我們現在繼續請東武大學政治學系教授舒子喬 舒教授"},{"start":210.889,"end":232.676,"text":"主席各位委員在座各位機關代表還有各位與會學者還有媒體朋友們各位好很榮幸有這個機會來這邊就這個議題公民投票法的修法的議題提出我自己的一些潛見跟看法因為提到的內容蠻多的時間的關係我會把焦點放在"}]}},{"id":"156860","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156860","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b49a2a9b8fc7dc6f02a0d4a4306ab205ff47afdb3ba1ea301b90a6bc0bf914cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:23:39 - 09:29:35","影片長度":"00:05:56","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T09:23:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T09:29:35+08:00","duration":356,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.734718750000001,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.662218750000001,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.41846875000002,"end":264.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.44096875,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.59971875,"end":356.80221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.713,"end":24.919,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案,目前在我國的再生能源發展條例裡面,雖然明確定義了再生能源包含秋蓄式的水利發電,"},{"start":25.859,"end":50.113,"text":"但卻沒有能夠比照其他的能源項目同時辦理特別是裝置容量大於2萬瓦的大型水庫水力發電例如呢翡翠水庫、石門水庫、曾文水庫等等因為他們沒有納入這個條例的範疇就是呢我們這次線型條文裡面這個看到的是本來只有寫到小水力發電"},{"start":51.053,"end":71.77,"text":"且裝置容量未達2萬瓦之發電方式。」所以我們希望能夠改成這個非抽蓄式水力發電池利用水道這個等等的抽蓄式為相關的這個發電方式之外呢在第11條裡面再生能源的發電設備呢我們也希望"},{"start":72.13,"end":92.772,"text":"改成說除了直接燃燒廢棄物質發電之外,申請主管機關認定符合第四條第四項所規定辦法之發電設備。那為什麼希望這樣做呢?是因為剛剛我講的包含翡翠水庫、石門水庫、曾文水庫等等他們沒有納入條例的範疇就無法取得再生能源憑證跟探權喔。"},{"start":94.113,"end":96.316,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":110.212,"end":112.874,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":132.984,"end":151.582,"text":"他的裝置容量是7萬千瓦每年平均發電量可以達到2.2億度的電這樣的發電量對於綠能的推動貢獻應該是不可忽視的可是呢因為現行法規的限制所以翡翠水庫的電力沒有辦法納入再生能源的範疇使得他的電價漲幅從30多年的1.36元"},{"start":154.364,"end":170.014,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。 到現在的111年的時候我們看到每對店的價格漲幅只有1.53元這個漲幅遠遠低於店價調漲的幅度也嚴重影響了我國綠能的發展速度所以如果我們再進一步看的話"},{"start":171.335,"end":178.342,"text":"現在的翡翠發電廠的購電契約的現行規範裡面,台電調漲電價的時候,市府賣給台電的價格只能調整電價上漲部分的80%,也就是電價上漲一塊錢,台電跟民眾多收一塊錢電價漲幅的部分,但台電只需要付翡翠水庫的0.8塊。"},{"start":194.898,"end":196.979,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":220.493,"end":226.155,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":238.399,"end":262.586,"text":"將翡翠水庫的發電水力發電的納入再生能源的計價那從112年翡翠水庫發電的1億5千8百多萬度來說台電跟翡翠水庫發電廠買只要3億元但向外去購買水力發電的度數卻要花4.5億元完全是康了我們台北市民之慨所以雖然今天我看到這個本部意見裡面有講到說這個"},{"start":266.108,"end":274.437,"text":"我們已經有113年的公告修正再生能源憑證實施辦法放寬納入大型非抽搐式水利得依法申請再生能源憑證但是呢因為"},{"start":280.484,"end":307.517,"text":"水庫市水利多屬於98年公佈施行的案例。那所以呢他們認為說這個我們的提案雖然與目前的推動方向相符但是呢現在他們已經有政府有具體可行的執行做法所以希望維持現行規範也符合我們的提案與本質但是我不認同這樣子的說法是因為呢如果你沒有把它寫在這個再生能源發展條例裡面"},{"start":309.158,"end":313.343,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":324.798,"end":343.181,"text":"放在實施辦法裡面不是一個好的辦法應該要直接放在再生能源發展條例裡面作為一個正式的法律規定台北市政府跟台電之間包含翡翠水庫的部分我們才有正式的法律可以依從"},{"start":343.962,"end":354.863,"text":"所以我們還是堅持就是說這個包含翡翠水庫等的發電希望能夠納入在再生能源發展條例裡面以上提案說明謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156859","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156859","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3be5ccffd510d5f3fc2a0d4a4306ab205ff47afdb3ba1ea301ec1a1595b71728d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:20:31 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(第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T09:20:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T09:23:30+08:00","duration":179,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.53471875,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":30.844718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.13159375,"end":59.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.10596875,"end":78.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.07346875,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.71784375,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.49659375,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.16284375,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.39471875,"end":176.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.40409375000002,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.97346875000002,"end":179.96909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.091,"end":0.602,"text":"提案說明"},{"start":13.183,"end":30.203,"text":"謝謝主席,各位委員還有各位列席的觀眾大家好今天我所要提案這個說明的部分是指個人資料保護法第六條的條文修正因為當前我們正處於一個資訊爆炸的時代科技的進步帶給我們無限的便利但是也帶來無"},{"start":31.244,"end":33.065,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":60.177,"end":75.89,"text":"他們利用這種通訊記錄衍生出來的資料試圖為自己的政治目的服務這種行為不但侵害了人民的隱私權更是對民主自由的赤裸裸的挑戰電信法第二條第八款雖然定義了通訊記錄的範疇但是隨著科技的進步"},{"start":79.774,"end":104.216,"text":"僅僅限制在發信方、收信方、通信時間等的資本資訊已經無法完全保護電信使用人的隱私手機的普及使得每個人的通信記錄成為有心人挖掘的寶庫他們可以透過這些資料拼湊出一個人的行動、足跡、生活軌跡甚至是他們的網路瀏覽習慣跟政治傾向試想一下"},{"start":104.696,"end":106.137,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":125.806,"end":149.943,"text":"個人資料保護庫法的第六條增列禁止收集、處理或利用通信記錄衍生相關資料的條文這不僅是對法律的完善更是對人民權利的捍衛我們必須明確的規定任何人不得在未經當事人同意的情況下利用電信記錄進行二次分析和利用只有這樣才能夠真正的保護"},{"start":150.503,"end":156.989,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]}},{"id":"16263","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16263","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d10c4563b5e5bf20ad8b52470c073da94edb79b8bfb08e799e5ce1cda5cac9b425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金。\n三、審查114年度行政法人國家運動訓練中心預算案。\n四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案。\n（僅進行詢答，相關預算提案請於11月20日下午2時前提出）\n【11月11日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-14T08:31:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T14:26:00+08:00","duration":21269,"影片長度":"05:54:29","委員發言時間":"08:31:31 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,"text":"校長早空中大學校長許立一校長早臺灣科技大學校長顏家裕校長早臺北科技大學校長王錫福校長早台中科技大學校長陳同孝校長早"},{"start":2160.129,"end":2169.474,"text":"情義科技大學校長陳文淵、雲林科技大學校長楊能書、胡偉科技大學校長張信良、屏東科技大學校長張金龍、恆湖科技大學校長黃有平、"},{"start":2180.74,"end":2194.948,"text":"高雄科技大學校長楊慶玉高雄參旅大學校長陳敦基台北商業大學校長任立中體育大學校長邱炳坤台灣體育運動大學校長許國昌"},{"start":2200.111,"end":2213.62,"text":"李光彪臺灣戲曲學院校長李陽臺北護理健康大學校長吳淑芳臺南護理專科學校校長黃美智臺東專科學校校長王俊盛"},{"start":2219.924,"end":2235.514,"text":"台灣大學附設醫院院長吳明賢、成功大學醫學院附設醫院院長李金維、陽明交通大學附設醫院院長楊淳豪、台灣藝術教育館館長李博言、"},{"start":2240.553,"end":2265.853,"text":"國家圖書館館長王寒清、國立公共資訊圖書館館長馬湘平、教育廣播電台台長黃月麗、國家教育研究院院長林崇一、國立自然科學博物館館長焦傳金、國立科學工藝博物館館長李秀鳳、"},{"start":2268.435,"end":2275.218,"text":"國立海洋生物博物館館長溫志宏國立臺灣科學館館長劉火清國立臺灣圖書館館長曹翠英國立海洋科技博物館館長陳素芬"},{"start":2288.403,"end":2294.93,"text":"國家運動訓練中心執行長龔榮堂國家運動科學中心執行長黃啟黃行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員黃子涵行政院主計總處基金預算處科長謝敏傑"},{"start":2311.267,"end":2313.289,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好"},{"start":2337.657,"end":2353.129,"text":"各位大學校長!大家早安!大家好!醫藥今天應邀列席貴委員會就教育部114年度主管預算案以所屬學校醫院、機構等附屬單位預算案"},{"start":2353.849,"end":2370.127,"text":"及行政法人預算案編列情形提出報告盛感榮幸敬請各位委員持續指教與支持本部主管各類預算案經已送大院審議以下請檢要報告第一類"},{"start":2370.828,"end":2382.452,"text":"本部114年度主管預算案內容重點一、稅入預算編列情形114年編列15.7億元較113年度法定預算14.3億元增加1.4億元二、稅出預算編列情形"},{"start":2390.474,"end":2413.147,"text":"14年度編列3623億元教113年度法定預算3345億元增加278億元增幅8.3%主要編列項目包括一、學錢及國民教育預算14年度學錢教育編列710億元"},{"start":2415.345,"end":2419.367,"text":"711億元國民教育編列958億元合共1669億元教育113年度增加121億元增幅7.8%主要是辦理我國"},{"start":2432.904,"end":2439.333,"text":"少子女化對策計畫未滿6歲幼兒教育與照顧經費增加49.3億元照顧全國約66萬名2到4歲的幼兒減輕家長照顧負擔"},{"start":2450.522,"end":2474.234,"text":"補助高中以下學校充實專任輔導老師以專責輔導人力及辦理性別平等及霸凌防制教育等增加7.9億元呼應學生輔導日益增加的一個需求並積極消除性別歧視預防校園霸凌事件發生等新增加補貼臺電公司檢收9670所公司力高級"},{"start":2479.136,"end":2489.285,"text":"中等以下學校及教保服務機構教學用電優惠及電價動漲差異38.1億元給予偏鄉地區學校約2萬名教師鼓勵9任獎金11.8億元二、高等教育預算114年度編列1332億元"},{"start":2504.625,"end":2522.492,"text":"叫113年度約增加59億元增幅4.6%,主要是辦理高等教育生跟第二期經費增加20.1億元,全面提升141所大學品質基,促進高校多元發展。"},{"start":2523.032,"end":2542.879,"text":"新增國家重點領域校際研教園區宣導計劃經費9.7億元令推動公私立大學校院學生校內住宿補貼方案。113年度由內政部住宅基金支應114年度其由本部編列經費新增相關經費28億元,亦其減輕27.6萬名大學生"},{"start":2549.841,"end":2557.791,"text":"校內住宿的一個經濟負擔三、資訊及科技教育預算114年度編列72億元較113年度增加22億元增幅43.5%主要是"},{"start":2565.16,"end":2581.306,"text":"新增補貼臺電公司檢收168所公司立大專校院及附設小學教學用電優惠及電價動長差額20.7億元等經費。四、中生教育預算114年度編列80億元教113年度增加6億元主要增加增列補助所屬社教機構節能力建築"},{"start":2595.186,"end":2619.58,"text":"設施設備、多功能展示空間、策劃等經費鼓勵六個社校機構精進策展空間及做法其能成為淨零轉型之典範產業令新增辦理全國17到27間公共圖書館科技應用與創新實驗環境的一個建置及服務精進的經費"},{"start":2622.262,"end":2632.773,"text":"五、國民體育預算114年編列75億元較113年增加21億元主要是辦理優化全民運動與賽會環境計畫經費增加11.4億元補助22縣市"},{"start":2639.961,"end":2662.882,"text":"新建全民運動場館設施及競賽場地促進我國競技運動水準令學校體育教育經費增加5.7億元補助學校整修整建運動場地以充實體育器材並推廣水域活動等"},{"start":2663.993,"end":2675.93,"text":"六、青年發展預算114年編列19億元教育13年度增加12億元增幅160.3%主要是增加青年海外遊夢"},{"start":2678.395,"end":2697.935,"text":"經會10億元提供全國15到30歲青年赴海外見習或參與符合國際永續發展目標等跨國行動,讓青年的理想性、創造力、活力與韌性成為國際連結的重要力量。七、學校及社交機構人員退休、輔助、給付預算"},{"start":2700.717,"end":2728.689,"text":"114年編列272億教113年增加25億元主要是增加撥補教育人員退伍基金經費24億元等其他預算114年度辦理國際及兩岸教育交流實施培育藝術教育、學生事務行政及督導以及一般行政工作經費編列105億元教113年度增加13億元主要是補助教育實習"},{"start":2729.969,"end":2750.9,"text":"等師資培育以進行以推動美感教育經驗經費增加3.8億元協助5500名師資生於實習期間其能專注學習進而提升師資培育的成效並擴大美感教育影響層面及推動效益令推動華語教育及講助"},{"start":2758.26,"end":2782.832,"text":"學生國外留學相關經費增加3.6億元吸引外國優秀人才來臺學習華語促進國際教育交流提升國際影響力並獎助4000名以上學生出國留學研修或實習協助學子走出臺灣培養全球化技能九、依法編列特殊教育預算114年度編列163億元較113年度增加10億元"},{"start":2787.745,"end":2789.633,"text":"令114年度預算數16"},{"start":2791.934,"end":2819.422,"text":"三億元占本部主管年度預算3623億元的4.5%符合特殊教育法第九條不得第一4.5的一個規定主要編列項目包括補助特殊教育學校辦理特殊教育業務及改善教學設施補助各級學校身心障礙學生學雜費減免及獎助學金以及推展知乎優異教育等相關經費提升"},{"start":2821.826,"end":2839.044,"text":"特殊教育服務品質及環境十、依法編列原住民教育經費、教育預算114年本部主管編列47億元教育13年增加3億元增幅7.4%年同原住民組委員會"},{"start":2840.545,"end":2854.97,"text":"編列23億元合共70億元佔本部主管年度預算3623億元的1.93%符合原住民族教育法第11條不得第一1.9%的規定第二類"},{"start":2860.523,"end":2875.729,"text":"本部114年度附屬單位預算內容重點一教育部47所國立大學校院校務基金及3所國立大學附設醫院作業基金預算編列情形114年度業務總收入編列2,301.5億業務總支出編列2,325.8億收支相比短處24.3億教113年度預算"},{"start":2890.035,"end":2917.784,"text":"短處約減少1.7億元主要是增加教學收入及醫療收入等另外在114年度建制校設醫療大樓以設備等固定資產制建設改良擴充預算編列199億元較113年度約減少24億元主要是配合工程進度等核實編列預算二、教育部所屬"},{"start":2919.592,"end":2944.584,"text":"機構作業基金預算編列情形該基金轄下共設置6個所屬機構114年度業務總收入編列23.3億元業務總支出編列28.3億元收支相抵即短處5億元教113年度預算短處約減少0.1億元主要是增列社教機構發展補助收入及建教合作收入等至於在"},{"start":2949.076,"end":2975.032,"text":"整修場館及相關設備固定資產的建設改良擴充預算編列3.9億元教育13年度約減少0.6億元主要是本部補助國立社教機構環境優化服務躍升計畫以13年度執行期滿相關預算業宜編俊。三、國立高級中等學校校務基金預算編列情形"},{"start":2977.385,"end":3005.874,"text":"該基金轄下共設置145所國立高中職學校114年度業務總收入編列368.8億元業務總支出編列408.9億元收支相抵即短處約40.1億元較113年度預算短處約減少1.4億元主要是增加教學研究補助收入等是運動發展基金預算編列情形在114年"},{"start":3006.974,"end":3018.622,"text":"基金來源編列69.3億,較113年增加12億,主要是參考近年度運動彩券銷售情形增列運動彩券引於分配收入。"},{"start":3022.745,"end":3045.381,"text":"五、產學基金編列情形14年度基金來源編列8.8億元較113年度也增加0.2億元主要是增列財產儲分收入等六、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金預算編列情形14年度基金來源編列增加1.5億元主要是增列公庫撥款收入"},{"start":3051.345,"end":3067.89,"text":"令114年度基金用途編列0.6億元較113年度減少0.4億元第三類行政法人預算案內重點依行政法人國家運動訓練中心編列114年總業務總收入22.4億元總支出22.2億元收支相抵即剩餘0.2億元較113年增加0.1億元另外"},{"start":3081.297,"end":3089.203,"text":"其中業務在支出教育這13年增加1.4億元主要是因為2025年德國萊茵盧爾四大運、2026年名古屋亞運競賽總列及訓練人數較2024年巴黎奧運增加增列相關培訓經費"},{"start":3101.724,"end":3129.128,"text":"至於這一個運動科學中心的預算編列在114年編列1.68元總支出1.67元較113年度減少約0.01億元主要是省略業務外的一個收入以上報告懇請各位委員鼎力支持使得本部主管各項政策能夠順利推動敬請各位委員敬祝各位委員"},{"start":3130.834,"end":3135.538,"text":"健康平安,也感謝各位的支持。謝謝。謝謝鄭部長的口頭報告。現在我們進行綜合詢答。每位初席委員質詢10分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘。列席委員質詢時間為5分鐘,登記截止時間為上午10點30分。"},{"start":3153.411,"end":3168.342,"text":"委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並與本會委員范雲質詢結束後進行臨時提案處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理"},{"start":3169.322,"end":3182.67,"text":"因為今天來的校長比較多要讓大家來自全國各地不會太晚回去我們今天中午就不休息12點半的時候會發便當給大家但是我們10點50分的時候會給大家15分鐘的時間休息因為這邊的洗手間不夠所以我們平常只有5分鐘今天給大家15分鐘的時間休息先跟大家預告一下"},{"start":3197.518,"end":3202.941,"text":"那現在我們就請發言登記第一位的洪孟楷委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長好有請鄭部長"},{"start":3223.666,"end":3246.467,"text":"在部長上來的同時部長好也跟我們所有全國令人尊敬的大學校長再一次致意我想高等教育需要我們大家一起努力推動那部長過去也是我們中山大學的校長所以一定更感受剛剛本席特別聆聽了部長的這個口頭報告裡面洋洋沙沙講了很多但是部長"},{"start":3247.208,"end":3273.882,"text":"那麼多的大學校長坐在這邊前天我們看到我們臺大校長也帶頭呼籲說應該要推動高教前瞻計畫因為過去這幾年我們偉大的政府告訴我們是說我們的經濟表現如何的亮眼所以可以舉債可以做建設那一樣啊對於高等教育的部分本席也期待我們所有校長聚集在一堂都很想要拼都很想要打拼一班市委"},{"start":3275.493,"end":3301.187,"text":"現在高等教育的前瞻計畫的部分教育部有聽到這樣的訴求嗎?有的,這兩天媒體確實有報導這個部長,會不會因為你是校長的身份跟你是部長的身份你的答案會不一樣?如果今天您也是坐在這邊的校長其中一員的話你支不支持高教前瞻計畫?高等教育"},{"start":3302.793,"end":3327.937,"text":"人才的培育確實是我們國家發展非常重要的一環臺灣的一個人我們沒有天然資源我們靠的就是人才培育所以在這個經會的許可我們當然是全力來支持高等教育的一個發展不管在科研的一個能量的提升包括在人才培育上我想我們都會全力來支持"},{"start":3328.417,"end":3337.806,"text":"全力支持但我看你們的回答不是這樣你們的回答是說今年已經編了1200億了所以意思就是說已經很多了"},{"start":3338.697,"end":3349.042,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功"},{"start":3359.688,"end":3384.918,"text":"最基本的電費過去幾年電費漲了多少很多的校長都反映啊人事費用因為配合調薪所以要針對我們的教職員補薪調薪7乘5電費高漲經常性的支出越來越不夠用如果說連學校給系所的補助行政經費都已經在減縮的話那我們又怎麼樣能夠期待我們所有的校長能夠不用煩惱這一切"},{"start":3386.559,"end":3408.915,"text":"而好好的專心來拚人才的培育所以我們現在講的是說有沒有另外的計畫除了你現在的1300億有沒有能不能提出另外的計畫部長有沒有這個決心跟魄力能夠跟行政院爭取也許不是今年但明年能不能出來跟委員報告我會努力的因為我是感同身受的但是跟委員報告"},{"start":3411.377,"end":3428.905,"text":"教育部這些年來在整體的一個預算教育部的一個補助是從70、大概75億左右增加到將近80億也就是說它是逐年增加如果以這一個來講因為陳校長剛好在媒體裡面特別提到"},{"start":3430.045,"end":3440.891,"text":"舉例東北大學東北大學每年都有100億日幣補助我想如果以教育部的75到80億大概簡單乘以3倍我相信我們至少也有250億到將近300億這樣的補助給台大我想台大是一個非常優秀是台灣的一個標竿"},{"start":3453.058,"end":3477.034,"text":"大學我們會全力來支持他但是怎麼樣讓科研的能量在國際化的一些這間努力我相信我們都可以一起來共同努力那麼教育部部長你剛剛講了有講的沒講我真的很懷疑說如果你今天還是大學校長的議員的時候你能不能認同現在鄭部長講的話來部長我請教雖然排名"},{"start":3478.188,"end":3496.537,"text":"他不是絕對可是他還是有參考指標2024年世界五百大大學排名臺灣有多少個大學進入選在QS裡邊我們是臺大臺大有進百大那五百大不會不知道吧"},{"start":3497.642,"end":3507.21,"text":"五百大我們基本上大概有這個七所大學是部長我覺得這是很基本的問題耶我本來以為你會秒答"},{"start":3508.988,"end":3531.88,"text":"那如果說五百大裡面我還是再次強調排名不是一切因為我們有很多不同的大學有不同的特色他是沒有辦法量化的但實際上他也是一個全球的指標全球一千九百多所大學裡面五百大前五百大大學臺灣七所嘛我們的排名也是逐漸一直說實在話客觀的事實確實一直在後退啊"},{"start":3532.745,"end":3559.953,"text":"那我現在在講的是說所以所有的大學校長大家都希望能夠做事結果柴米油鹽醬煮茶要讓大家花心神花精力的去跟人家募款去找校友贊助去成立校友會選校友會會長我想很多校長心有戚戚焉吧為什麼阿就是因為沒告知阿拜託校友大家來到校廳阿那但是我們現在講了那麼多結果部長你講的我覺得"},{"start":3561.293,"end":3586.165,"text":"說實在不是一個具體的回答我們會跟委員報告我們會努力來爭取經費但是我也真的因為我本身曾經在高等教育非常長的時間所以會不會明年提出前瞻計畫還是不要用前瞻計畫用另外高教什麼計畫還是怎麼樣你能夠承諾現在1300億你能夠爭取到多少多增加一倍不然我提官走人行不行"},{"start":3590.199,"end":3609.356,"text":"公務員報告這一個職務對我來講不重要我是真的來自於一種對臺灣這個土地的情感在人才培育我們看到部長,我們都對臺灣很愛所以我才會站在這裡你如果說沒有辦法拿烏紗帽來堵住的話那我再請教一個比較簡單具體的電費調漲"},{"start":3612.546,"end":3635.594,"text":"現在大家都講說明年不知道會不會漲啊我們也講說民進黨錯誤的能源政策你放著火力發電燃煤全開燃氣全開然後結果成本一直增高那受苦受傷受害的就是全民啊那尤其是大學啊那我只是請教明年假設電費要漲教育部能不能現在承諾所有大學明年漲多少我補多少"},{"start":3636.885,"end":3660.877,"text":"確實我們現在跟委員報告我們114年我們就編了59億用來補貼你現在明年編的錢其實如果說明年只要再漲你現在明年編的錢是因為因應今年已經漲了那我現在講說如果說假設明年再漲的話不管漲多少你能不能就承諾不會讓校長們為難我就是明年會漲"},{"start":3662.398,"end":3686.391,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3686.751,"end":3707.408,"text":"這個我們除了編列59億的補差額以外,如果再有漲,那麼臺電會自行吸收,這是我們在114年時臺電沒有自行吸收,臺電他就是轉嫁到時候不會,部長我還有很多問題啊,今天那麼多校長來,大家就要看到一個有肩膀有脖子的部長,大家就要看到一個瞭解校長身陷的部長"},{"start":3709.91,"end":3727.402,"text":"您是從大學校長出身所以我相信你應該最了解大學校長心聲我其實是不是容委員給我多一點時間我想我們補貼我們一定支持大學一定支持大學所以承諾明年動場明年只要調漲的部分店價我們會補助我們會來協助"},{"start":3730.003,"end":3751.94,"text":"協助還是補助?我們會補助感謝委員對大學的支持部長我還有其他問題那我請台大、成大跟陽明大學附設醫院的院長一起上來一下好不好那時間是不是可以稍微暫停一下請這三位的校長出列一下院長三位院長醫學院的三位院長來時間還是稍微暫停一下吧還是等一下"},{"start":3759.275,"end":3760.135,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3783.303,"end":3796.182,"text":"現在網路上傳出撥撥醫師的爭議其中所有Google一查還說什麼可以查到900多位撥撥醫師的名單當然昨天衛福部長馬上就去做"},{"start":3797.113,"end":3822.706,"text":"一個澄清但是很多人看完那個記者會之後覺得說有澄清跟沒澄清好像不一樣那我們現在真的想請教本身想了解說院長們對於博博醫師的看法有兩種聲音一種博博醫師他們確實在這個學歷取得的過程裡面沒有台灣那麼的嚴謹但是他們畢竟也經過我們的國考而且如果說真的能夠進入到我們的醫療體系的話相信也有這樣的一個醫療專業"},{"start":3823.886,"end":3841.979,"text":"另外一種真的會對於是說波波醫師名單流傳好像造成汙名化然後讓大家去漏收甚至本市也看到這個名單因為你只要一查波波醫師名單就出來了也有幾位醫師有任職是在我們這個醫院裡面來院長是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":3842.659,"end":3870.6,"text":"好 那我來簡單說明一下那臺大醫院就那900多個名單查是沒有任何一個事在你沒有查 查過有查過 我們全部都查過雖然網路上說有兩位我們也特別就那兩位請他認為是在婦產部跟PCY我們都查過也沒有那為什麼臺大醫院沒有因為其實我們過去在院長室會議的時候就已經有做過決議就是我們假如是波蘭奇的"},{"start":3872.362,"end":3898.544,"text":"醫師就申請住院醫師或是實習我們就不予考慮了不予考慮的原因是因為那時候認為其實醫師的養成比較重要的倒不是只有上課或是比較重要的是實習那我們是據我們所知這些波蘭籍的醫師是沒有在地實習因為語言文化的關係也很難他們只有見習"},{"start":3899.244,"end":3914.839,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":3915.74,"end":3942.555,"text":"其實波蘭好像因為進入歐盟所以就不需要就被認為是先進國家所以就不需要經過一個學歷認證我們其實還有一個學歷認證那我自己在裡面也參與過學歷那個非常的嚴謹大概通過力不到就是各位數字的percentage但是假如直接就是我們認為譬如說像美國、歐盟或是像紐澳這些先進國家或日本"},{"start":3943.235,"end":3964.954,"text":"這些我們可以直接認證他的醫學系的學歷就只要參加我們的國考那國考通過也是有醫師執照所以臺灣的醫療水準一直被我們感到驕傲因為真的是名列前茅那但是現在有這樣的一個學歷採證的爭議尤其這個禮拜說也有本土的醫師要上街抗議"},{"start":3966.515,"end":3983.305,"text":"院長我想請教就這樣第一線來講會不會認為是不要造成民眾的一個恐慌或者是對立有什麼樣衛福部是不是應該也應該跳出來講講話還是衛福部現在做的你認為是說可以化解國人對於我們醫療的水準的一個疑慮嗎"},{"start":3984.724,"end":3986.045,"text":"國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機"},{"start":4014.324,"end":4028.015,"text":"教育我們是給予肯定但是但是他們確實真的少了這一塊就是臨床經驗因為語言文化大家也可以想他一定是見習怎麼可能有辦法實習"},{"start":4030.237,"end":4049.854,"text":"院長那我最後只有一 稍微站起來醫師的爭議是一個部分那另外一個部分我也再提一下因為畢竟過去到現在也有幾個委員都有關心我們教育部旗下醫院的加班申請其實會讓基層同仁會覺得說不合理包括說之前最多只能用最小單位是半小時"},{"start":4050.731,"end":4075.811,"text":"那我知道說你們現在在114年開始已經有要求是說要改每分鐘計算對不對可是我只提一個因為你現在的預算書明年針對人事的部分其實是沒有編足的所以換言之如果說真的用爐石能夠發放的話你現在預算看起來是不夠之硬喔那這樣子會不會讓外界覺得是說你這是"},{"start":4078.374,"end":4092.356,"text":"發放加班費是玩假的因為醫護人員剛剛我們在提到醫療是我們的專業名列前茅但是很大一個部分也是醫護人員大家都一起努力所以說才能達到這個成果所以我只講確認一下"},{"start":4093.376,"end":4121.437,"text":"明年不會因為說有預算不足而要求員工報加班費的時候暗示說經費不足要他們重新思考提報?不會有出現這樣的狀況吧?我們假如真的有編不足基本上我們是贊成用分鐘來計算所以我們也在整個包括我們的電腦系統跟這個資訊系統都已經改了當然這些改要一點時間不過我們預定實施是明年1月開始"},{"start":4122.438,"end":4123.659,"text":"臺大醫院院長發言臺大醫院院長發言臺大醫院院長發言"},{"start":4140.555,"end":4156.18,"text":"陽明交通大學要一併辦理,謝謝好,謝謝,我們一起努力,再次感謝那侯孟楷委員請回,那部長請回,那三位院長也請回,謝謝那我們下一位質詢是葛如君,葛如君委員謝謝主席,有請教育部政要部長"},{"start":4169.957,"end":4171.357,"text":"有請鄭部長部長早我想一樣向所有的校長還有先進前輩致意我曾經讀過三間學校也在兩間以上的學校教課也非常高興有這麼多人一起為教育努力部長您的責任很重"},{"start":4194.824,"end":4214.09,"text":"那首先我先提兩個今天大家熱議的議題首先我過去多次關注雙語政策一直提到AI時代現在所有的手機AI的服務都可以做到同步翻譯未來還會更好但我們的教育政策卻為了配合過去的前行政院長"},{"start":4216.396,"end":4226.138,"text":"頭影片好像有點問題這個AI已經很進步了但我們在播放頭影片有時候偶爾還是會遇到一些困難時間麻煩幫我暫停一下這是技術上的問題不是我們的問題謝謝好謝謝麻煩繼續待會再補我個幾秒謝謝那我想這個配合這個雙語政策變成教育現場有一些亂象那很多的學科其實會變成反而學不好"},{"start":4244.982,"end":4259.388,"text":"現在有消息指出,教育部願意迷途知返,重善如流,重新調整雙語政策想請教一下部長,因為在座大家都很關心,接下來到底要怎麼辦?想向您確認,接下來除了英語課以外,其他課程都不用採取英語授課?"},{"start":4260.979,"end":4263.36,"text":"中小學英語課是的但是跟委員報告就不能這樣簡化來這樣說我們希望國中小他是能夠從日常生活裡邊他能夠開始從最簡單的自我介紹"},{"start":4280.726,"end":4300.331,"text":"到這個學校到社區導覽十一住行等等的接下來麻煩教育部要提出比較完整的配套因為現在你們新聞的說法是交給第一線的學校決定可是您現在又站在這裡說有完整的這個做法不能一刀切那到底是該怎麼做希望我可以提出完整的說明我們屆時現在我請這個我們這個國教署等於說6年分兩個階段每一個階段有3年然後有一些具體的一些做法"},{"start":4310.253,"end":4324.141,"text":"相關配套措施什麼時候進行調整部長可不可以給一個明確的期程因為我們現在很多不管是大專院校還是中小學都還有雙語的預算啊是期程什麼時候會提出明確的調整措施配套措施"},{"start":4325.393,"end":4336.484,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":4351.273,"end":4369.757,"text":"我還是要這麼說的感謝這個農業部他關心我們學童的這一些對我們也非常感謝感謝地方在這個部分的一些政策的協助請說到底接下來配上有問題的學校如何處理部長跟農業部可不可以研議一週內給出完整的做法我們待會還有很多議題要討論這一個部分"},{"start":4375.553,"end":4402.568,"text":"這個農業部他在11月底他會有一個整個政策上所以是11月底以前是是是會有一個完成的說法是嗎會開會會協調那再麻煩我們會持續追蹤那部長我想今天是教育部114年的預算詢答想先跟您分享我們的高教領頭羊我們臺灣大學即將在2028年邁向百年孝慶我也非常恭喜那我們陳校長也特別提出呼籲在近幾年的榮景之下"},{"start":4403.348,"end":4420.997,"text":"其實我們也應該要有更多的基礎建設更多的前瞻包含像日本的大學有每年100億日元的補助或者其他世界級的大學也都持續的在往前更加的推動但近來我們面臨人事費的增長甚至電價還有可能調整"},{"start":4424.238,"end":4442.634,"text":"非常難做一些相關經費的一些因應那非常多的大專院校也都積極呼籲,包含本席是不是可以再為高教請命,站在教育部的立場剛剛我們洪孟凱委員也說了可不可以再向行政院爭取高教前瞻基礎建設的經費,或用其他的方式剛剛他是說兩倍"},{"start":4443.835,"end":4460.04,"text":"那我想還提出了這個烏紗帽的請求我是不是請您再強化一下您的意願跟這個積極態度感謝委員對高等教育人才培育的一個關心其實事實上我跟委員還有我們所有的大學校長的心情是一樣的"},{"start":4460.74,"end":4479.646,"text":"所以我們在高教生跟今年我們就增加了跟去年比我們增加了20億所以我想這個部分我們怎麼樣持續的對高等教育資源給予更寬裕的一個機會讓他們有一個更大的一個對未來的想像的發展我想還是遠遠不足啦接下來可能還有很多費用要調整嘛"},{"start":4480.606,"end":4502.513,"text":"所以這個所有的價格都在上漲,所以麻煩您再積極爭取那同時這個非常多的校長包含我們臺大陳校長也在現場包含本席也都提到說其實現在的人才培育應該要有一個跨部會的小組從這個人才培育我們只是舉AI為例好了"},{"start":4502.873,"end":4531.113,"text":"教育部、國科會、經濟部、國發會、速發部之間其實就有很多橫向的溝通可以做得更好更何況整體的人才培育所以我想請教部長臺灣未來如果要跟其他人競爭我們的人才培育的中長期的規劃甚至未來幾十年甚至百年的大計這是最重要的請教部長能不能向行政院爭取成立一個跨部會的人才培育小組讓大學可以有一個直接和各部會直接溝通的平台"},{"start":4531.573,"end":4536.32,"text":"最重要的是這個平台應該要讓各大學可以參與部長可不可以承諾"},{"start":4538.269,"end":4565.661,"text":"謝謝跟委員報告我們目前行政內部事實上在以國發會啟動本來我們在人才培育裡邊在人力的義孤他就有一個跨部會的一個所以現在全臺灣未來的人才是國發會在管不是教育部在管嗎我們當然也參與接下來這個平台到底要是誰我們現在一問了這個跨部會平台大家會在踢教育部踢國發會國發會踢國科會國科會又踢給辦公室到底是誰教育部長您能不能"},{"start":4566.061,"end":4593.855,"text":"感謝委員的一個提醒委員當然也是一種方式就是說在人才培育我們有更積極的成立一個那不然我們這麼多大學校長在這裡聽您說話幹嘛呢我們請國發會來就好啦人才培育嘛謝謝委員謝謝委員提醒我想我們可以更細膩的針對這個人才來組成這個小組我們來努力教育部可不可以直接啦我想教育部很重要希望可以跟行政院爭取那同時我們談到人才培育"},{"start":4594.835,"end":4623.262,"text":"其實我們也看到一些亂象其實我非常多次的質詢也都提起現在的這個多元入學很可能被坊間稱作多錢入學學習歷程檔案一個單一PTF只能上傳4M影片只能傳幾秒鐘就算了我們這個持續追蹤但是還是希望可以提高但是現在的問題是什麼有貧富不均的問題我們一再的詢問坊間一再的提醒教育部一再的說沒有但是怎麼樣"},{"start":4624.042,"end":4646.136,"text":"所有的課程都還在銷售甚至還有雙11特價蝦皮上面的所有的東西還賣出什麼?有的賣出10萬份有的賣出4.7萬份還評價很高五星好評到底有多少學生都用這些所謂的銷售的這種方式付費的方式來做多錢入學"},{"start":4646.516,"end":4674.234,"text":"那沒有錢的學生是不是不公平老師有沒有辦法去分辨出這些付費的服務這種做法難道是教育部想要的嗎同時啦我想接下來我們還有很多同學的這些資料很可能是用AI產生的AI也可能要付錢AI做出來的東西老師目前也沒有工具可以評斷接下來排山倒海而來的這些資料有的是付錢的有的是AI做的到底我們應該要怎麼做"},{"start":4674.554,"end":4699.574,"text":"無獨有偶近年來我們還推動了什麼呢?APCS的徵選有越來越多的名額要採用這個徵選的方式雖然報名考試的費用是教育部來支持的但是補習班如雨後春筍出來我想我們剛剛列了一系列的問題其實都在講我們的教育的方針跟政策不能變成多錢入學"},{"start":4700.174,"end":4709.059,"text":"有錢的人就可以入學部長面對多元入學變成多錢入學教育商品化我們一定要打擊這樣的現象教育部有沒有探討背後的原因"},{"start":4710.493,"end":4733.464,"text":"感謝委員的指導確實我想教育多元化我們就希望肯定人他就是有個別差異所以才希望他在生涯的發展金錢的個別差異嗎?能力的個別差異嗎?所以能力比較差的就要去補習嗎?就要付錢所以我們多元的入學管道本來就是因應學生希望他能夠適性能夠一個發展更好的發展"},{"start":4736.465,"end":4748.073,"text":"所以剛才委員所提的當然不是教育部所樂意看到的那我們也知道民間的業者有時候他當然在招生的一個手法或者從利潤上的一個考量"},{"start":4767.025,"end":4786.529,"text":"進一步的研議可以提供給本席有專家也提出善用AI工具當然有壞的就是他可能會偽造是自己做的但也有好的提升他的能力那我想請教一下部長您知道114學年度在中小學的階段一共編列多少預算來推動數位平權"},{"start":4792.813,"end":4797.215,"text":"跟委員報告在這個數位評審的這個部分數位學習的精進方案有27億27億除以200再來"},{"start":4805.325,"end":4821.554,"text":"在47之外有將近2億,然後還有一個BYOD的...沒關係,我們算過了啦,每一個中小學生平均起來大概就是3塊錢那一個月呢,其實就是幾十塊錢,跟這個我們營養午餐比起來相差18倍"},{"start":4827.217,"end":4853.349,"text":"這些錢可能要存一年才能買一個月的CHAT GPT的費用我想CHAT GPT一個月要20塊美金教育部如果真的有心要推動數位平權、AI平權要讓不只是中小學的學生我們的大專院校的電腦教室我們的高等教育的這些同學都應該要有能力來使用這些服務完全看不出來教育部推動這些數位平權的決心這部分教育部長可不可以承諾來檢討一下"},{"start":4855.489,"end":4868.24,"text":"我想我們確實一直在努力因為以實際性剛才委員事實上在這個CHAT GPT這個OpenAI確實在整個學習跟教學上影響是很深遠的我們講的是數位平權的預算好不好再麻煩再討論一下"},{"start":4871.883,"end":4886.153,"text":"那接下來其實還有很大的問題是我們的數位素養啦恭喜啦我們的運算思維全球第一但是我們的資訊素養現在是排名第四但是加起來75%的人都只有基本的能力是什麼呢我用一張圖來表示"},{"start":4887.694,"end":4910.56,"text":"所有的這些學生所有的這些年輕人在沒有好的資訊素養教育情況之下變得很會吃不會挑這其實不是我們要看到的年輕人在數位世界裡的能力在各國包含美國歐洲日本都開始持續加強定義我們的數位素養而且應該要持續的來幫助他們否則就會遇到一些很不好的現象"},{"start":4911.64,"end":4934.35,"text":"這個是近期發生的一個悲劇有一個14歲的年輕人接下來非常多的人都在用AI結果沉迷AI聊天最後輕生到底我們台灣的學生不管是高等教育的不管是中小學生使用AI的比率使用的方法使用的是付費還免費教育部有沒有進行調查"},{"start":4935.287,"end":4957.482,"text":"首先謝謝委員我還是要先感謝我們全國的中小學老師讓我們的學生能夠在國際的評比在這個面對問題他的一個邏輯思考分析問題他能夠在世界這個排名第一那另外他的科技的一個素養事實上也明面堅保辨別真假的素養我想"},{"start":4959.143,"end":4986.008,"text":"這個不管怎麼樣它是一個國際評比然後它對台灣的一個教育我們八年級的學生我想這個部分還是要真的要肯定我們老師的用心肯定嘛但是剛才委員所提的這個AI確實國外有許多的研究證據包括在今年裡面美國有一本書的我剛剛不好意思部長我打斷您齁因為這個主席先站起來我問的是台灣台灣的AI工具使用的比率跟現狀"},{"start":4996.126,"end":5008.952,"text":"教育部的學習平台上面我們有的AI工具每一天的10月份的話上課平均大概是3.3萬名學生那其他的部分我們沒有做一個全面的調查"},{"start":5009.572,"end":5027.013,"text":"在這裡具體向教育部提出兩點要求第一請教育部參考國外對數位素養的研究尤其是這些真假資訊的吸收跟辨別的能力參考他們的定義兩個月內來調整我們的數位教學指引中小學數位教學指引跟數位素養有關的定義"},{"start":5027.574,"end":5055.813,"text":"第二請教育部研議定期針對各個教育階段的學生進行AI工具使用情形的調查研議結果希望一個月內與書面回覆本席以上兩點部長可不可以承諾謝謝委員的關心確實因為AI所以我們在8月開學前就有一個數位指引給家長、給校長、給老師使用的狀況而且不是只是使用你們提供的工具不要活在平行時光"},{"start":5058.114,"end":5068.6,"text":"我相信所有的校長都非常關心,希望知道這個事,主席也會很想知道,麻煩部長再來更進一步的報告,這個了解跟我們報告,謝謝主席"},{"start":5090.127,"end":5103.543,"text":"教育部政醫藥部長、清華大學高委員校長、陽明交大林齊鴻校長、中央大學周景陽校長、政治大學林以蔡燕校長、海洋大學許泰文校長、北科大王錫福校長"},{"start":5110.373,"end":5130.003,"text":"能不能按照我剛才的順序來排列好不好第一位我們就先請清大、陽明交大、中大、海大、北科大、政大我們按照由右到左好不好這樣我比較能夠知道是哪一位校長不好意思清大對我們從右到左林校長"},{"start":5135.159,"end":5135.68,"text":"政務司司長"},{"start":5150.057,"end":5166.103,"text":"那我先講我想以上真的各位校長大家辛苦了那今天從很多地方大家都要趕到這裡來但是一年一次今天也非常的重要那以上幾位校長因為今天有幾件事情要跟大家做一個釐清的了解那我想這個我們在108年109年的時候我們桃園市跟以上幾個學校簽了很多的MOU"},{"start":5172.085,"end":5197.546,"text":"那當時我們桃園市的市民其實知道這個消息以後其實非常的欣喜非常的期盼不管是要來桃園設校要來桃園做教育園區要來桃園做醫療專區那桃園市民真的是歡欣鼓舞不過108年109年的時候很密集的跟以上各校簽了MOU我想請教一下先以清華大學來做代表那校長清華大學校長"},{"start":5204.843,"end":5221.579,"text":"當時這個MOU是市府主動找你們的還是你們學校提計畫的?當時這個方案,首先主席跟……直接回答就好這個方案是市政府跟清華大學一同……好,市府找你們的嘛,那中央大學?"},{"start":5224.344,"end":5237.258,"text":"市長請問是市府找你們的還是你們提計畫的?市府先表達意願讓我們也覺得合理好 那陽明交大市府找你們的還是你們提計畫的?我想是兩邊大概誰先?"},{"start":5238.732,"end":5260.71,"text":"因為是前任 我不太曉得誰先你不太清楚 其實我相信今天任何一個計畫一個位置接下來我們還是要了解之前的計畫好 那我想一樣現在請教一下我們清華大學校長那既然是市府主動的當時我們接到這個邀請的時候我們有沒有評估我們的可行性有沒有評估自身的實力有沒有評估過自己的財力等一下各校長我想都是一樣的問題校長"},{"start":5262.491,"end":5288.1,"text":"對,當然這個清華大學面對這個那麼大的這個……評估過可行性嗎?可行嗎?而且有在學校……校長,可行嗎?是可行的。可行的,好。那自己的實力在清華大學的部分的話,這個實力上面我們可以做到嗎?是的。可以做到,好。我們的財力可以應援嗎?財力那當然需要多方面的合作。好,來,那個中央大學。"},{"start":5289.878,"end":5290.098,"text":"財力財力"},{"start":5310.7,"end":5338.895,"text":"我想您應該也都非常支持我們這個國立大學到任何一個地方做這個校務的擴展或者是對當地有所貢獻我相信站在教育的大家長您一定是同意的嘛 對嘛好 那我們看到這個跟我們唐人市政府簽的MOU我們今天大家來看一下我們清華大學簽的MOU108年4月那當然後來過期了我們簽的是醫療暨教育研發園區的合作的一個意向書"},{"start":5339.995,"end":5364.674,"text":"陽明交通大學附設桃園市教育研發暨醫療園區合作意向書中央大學附設巴德智慧健康創新園區合作意向書以上三個學校都在做醫療的部分我第一個來講我們清華大學我想校長可能稍微聽一下當初您既然說以上幾個學校都說我們可行性"},{"start":5365.014,"end":5367.997,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功"},{"start":5385.544,"end":5396.959,"text":"為什麼其實我們過去這個兩年一直對因為校長我可能不想聽那個什麼我們已經很努力啊我們都在努力中啊我只是想知道為什麼好 校長我想我們看到這個MOU啊跳票是事實嗎"},{"start":5401.624,"end":5403.705,"text":"新華大學桃園附設醫院的這件事情看來我們自己沒辦法做所以我們跟高一大合作當時啊"},{"start":5424.031,"end":5429.816,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":5446.752,"end":5468.381,"text":"在歷次的會議當中跟桃園市政府說清楚那硬是要在7月底把這個土地撥用把它做完成我覺得站在桃園市民的立場來看就有一點點土地被詐騙了那當然我想我們還是要想出一些解套的辦法所以以上我想請教您高一大跟我們合作的這個案子現在還有機會嗎"},{"start":5470.042,"end":5491.897,"text":"簡單回答我們現在正在協商,我們希望會有一個很妥善的...你有沒有把握高一檔還會再回頭,有沒有?這個是對方需要去...機會有多大?這個很難說,因為我不代表高一檔好,校長,如果我們今天都已經在這裡了,這個MU又給你重簽了你都還很難說,我告訴你啦,這一個恐怕是一個破局了您心裡也非常有數啦,那當然"},{"start":5494.719,"end":5519.339,"text":"以這個陽明交通大學也一樣我想也是到目前為止因為校長您說這個您不了解這是前朝的今天我就真的不知道怎麼問您了不過我還是建議校長就是以後校務我覺得前後任校長交接我們還是必須交接清楚當然這個我是說你剛剛特別問說誰先開始的這個當然要知道那校長我想這樣子我想這個陽明交通大學目前也沒有具體的進展對嗎"},{"start":5520.74,"end":5546.038,"text":"我們這邊剛開始不是要設醫療園區是做一個智慧醫療的研發而你們的MOU簽的就是這個桃園市教育研發暨醫療園區意向書啊怎麼不是做醫療園區呢?中間有幾次的一些修正我們總共教育部開了6次會議跟桃園市政府也開了8次會議目前有具體的計畫跟進度嗎?"},{"start":5547.939,"end":5553.593,"text":"目前有目前有不過我想他現在目前也是處於一個雙方還在這個溝通的當中嘛對嗎"},{"start":5556.906,"end":5586.074,"text":"主要是希望我們做的事情要符合桃園市政府的需要然後政府改建之後有一些不同的想法校長我認為我們非常歡迎也期待這個MOU可以落實下來但是桃園市政府也有一些想法比如說因為陽明交通大學其實是非常優秀的國立大學如果能夠來桃園除了MOU裡面的內容之外假設還可以做一些實驗教育等等我希望校長跟納入去考量"},{"start":5587.274,"end":5614.064,"text":"中央大學簽MOU桃園市巴德智慧健康創新園區看起來也是要做相關的醫療、醫院等等不過本身了解中央大學並沒有醫學系、醫學院相關的系所所以當時來簽MOU到底為什麼校長認為有可行性?"},{"start":5614.844,"end":5630.218,"text":"我們覺得先做醫院再做醫學系是比較可行的策略先做醫院喔?所以你有做醫院的實力嗎?我們透過BOT跟其他的你現在要跟誰合作?因為現在還沒有成局沒有嘛對不對MOU過了沒有?"},{"start":5631.067,"end":5660.576,"text":"MOU我們本來進行到一半已經在招商可是新的政府有他新的看法他覺得要改改制成市立醫院這個事情對我不是這樣子喔校長這個講我覺得講事情要按照會議講清楚喔這個是呢我們在MOU的過程當中期限內其實你們沒有叫計劃在走那所以呢你們沒有辦法去完成本來MOU裡面大家約定的事項所以桃園市政府才幫你做一些調整以便我們可以繼續下去嘛那我想喔"},{"start":5661.396,"end":5684.69,"text":"這個調整是這樣的今天既然不管是清華大學或者中央大學以及我們陽明交大要做的都是醫療相關的可是現在看起來自己根本沒有錢嘛要土地的時候大家非常積極要蓋的時候大家現在都沒有錢我想這個經費的來源我想本席看看有沒有說錯第一個我想校務基金第二個募款請問一下校長現在在這個備詢台上有沒有第三個經費來源我們就是用BOT"},{"start":5689.193,"end":5698.96,"text":"用BOT要找對象嘛當然是用BOT你要有對象啊是不是因為要有其他配合的程序才能找我想再請教一下海洋大學"},{"start":5701.189,"end":5721.102,"text":"海洋大學看起來是跟桃園市政府這個BOT最有進展的一個學校但是呢我想請教一下校長海洋大學其實在這個進展之前我們的地無償撥用給你們那其實這是無償撥用嘛然後你在這當中你有沒有把這個土地租給別人獲利六千萬有沒有這個事只要告訴我有跟沒有有有好部長鄭部長"},{"start":5730.417,"end":5736.825,"text":"當時桃園市政府有來函請教你來告訴您海洋大學有這樣的狀況您怎麼回覆的?您怎麼回覆的?部長?部長如果不知道就告訴我不知道"},{"start":5745.934,"end":5774.56,"text":"對不起我這個信息沒有掌握沒關係好當時您回覆的意思是說這是國立已經是國立大學校產了 無不妥大概是這個意思但是部長我今天要告訴您也告訴海大校長其實今天即便是國產署有時候要撥這個土地無償給某機關使用絕對不可以盈利你怎麼可以在這個空就是你在進行計劃的中間的空窗期把這塊土地拿去盈利呢而且還可以獲益六千萬呢"},{"start":5775.76,"end":5796.111,"text":"部長這是可以的嗎?是不是請這個許校長再補充說我跟委員檢調報告一下這個山階在施工啊近身的這些沙子他沒有辦法交通的關係所以海大是幫他這個忙並沒有盈利我們沒有盈利的這個行為"},{"start":5797.119,"end":5810.837,"text":"沒有營利的新聞有沒有6千萬的收入有6千萬收入那我們有跟市長經過三次會議用在我們還是投資在桃園找教館的我想那個校長啊"},{"start":5812.119,"end":5840.855,"text":"就是如果你有收入有盈利這件事情那你用在哪裡我們那是另外再談但是這個行為是可不可以的我希望教育部會後來給我們一個說明跟解釋清楚好不好那另外我想那個北科大的部分呢現在都照這個期程在進行不過還有很多需要跟我們這個波地機關桃園市政府還需要協議的地方我想今天在這裡本席重申一次國立大學要來到桃園市包括今天政大也在這裡"},{"start":5842.095,"end":5847.319,"text":"政大的部分還沒有談到土地的撥用但是我們也很歡迎政大能夠來桃園開班、設校我想桃園市政府會給予全力的支持也是我們全桃園市市民的期待不過我們希望"},{"start":5860.149,"end":5873.838,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國"},{"start":5885.265,"end":5900.401,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":5900.621,"end":5901.121,"text":"教育部教育部"},{"start":5928.618,"end":5957.107,"text":"如果今天這六個國立大學還是沒有辦法去執行我們的相關計畫那要收回這個土地我們按照要點做教育部的態度是什麼?謝謝委員關心這個大學的發展我非常同意也非常認可當縣市地方的發展大學的能量能夠協助城市的發展這應該是肯定的但是如果大學在整個評估上土地上他真的沒有辦法"},{"start":5958.007,"end":5986.206,"text":"這一個土地我是支持應該地方政府要收回因為這一個東西我們怎麼樣讓整個資源能夠更完整的一個來來這一個規劃配合城市發展我想這是我是好謝謝校長的支持啦最後我想這六個國立大學桃園市政府本席我們都非常願意協助你們那用什麼的方式把各位留在桃園讓我們桃園也可以來分享我們國立大學的專業跟光彩好不好"},{"start":5987.284,"end":5997.769,"text":"以上謝謝部長請回還有校長們請回謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢再來我們請陳培宇委員質詢校長們辛苦了好謝謝主席那有請教育部鄭部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":6020.871,"end":6043.35,"text":"主席好還有委員好是部長早安很多的題目我今天就抓幾個我覺得是我們在看教育部新年度的預算的時候我們覺得比較有疑義的地方第一個是關於家庭教育的部分部長你應該記得我從總質詢的時候就開始一直談家庭教育我們來看一下下一頁我們幫教育部快速算了一下目前的編列是比去年多了278億"},{"start":6045.091,"end":6070.908,"text":"那可是在終身教育的部分只編了80億按照教育部如果書面資料的說明你們說比去年多了8.7%那可是呢整體的教育部的經費我必須要說只編了80億它的困境是什麼呢是終身教育原本在教育部的理解跟我們一般人的理解當中它應該是涵蓋學生離開校園一直到生命結束應該都是屬於終身教育的部分"},{"start":6071.508,"end":6085.636,"text":"在往下看,如果是這樣算,我們來看你們目前的編法呢,終身教育大部分的錢都被放在圖書館、博物館、社教機構等相關管社上,實體投資在教育上面的經費只有13.8,"},{"start":6087.757,"end":6105.98,"text":"其中家庭教育相關的經費只有3億一點點等於教育部明年要放在家庭教育的預算只佔整體教育經費不到千分之一可是不論是全教總、老師團體們或者是其實很多家長也已經提出訴求"},{"start":6106.801,"end":6129.449,"text":"家庭教育必須教育部要承擔起責任所以如果來看現在教育部用來推行家庭教育的預算再把各縣市政府的補助扣掉其實留在中央只剩下6000多萬而這6000多萬是我們整體教育部要以中央的角度去支持家庭教育的部分部長你覺得這樣可以嗎這是一個問題很大的問題"},{"start":6131.932,"end":6160.558,"text":"是在家庭教育這個確實是我們整個學校教育能夠順利推展的穩定力量那我想這一個部分如果經費上他的一個所需我們會內部來自己看怎麼樣來協助我覺得非常多年以來整個國家都認為生養小孩的責任在家庭在父母親但是我們也知道這幾年來其實已經很多的家長提出他們的困境提出他們的需求但是我們政府有沒有聽到他們正在求救"},{"start":6161.959,"end":6170.871,"text":"教育部不可以再用過往的觀念認為小孩生了是家庭自己的責任是爸媽自己的責任我們從昨天在勞動部那邊我們一直在跟勞動部談彈性的放假彈性的工時讓家長更多彈性可以照顧小孩"},{"start":6177.66,"end":6201.258,"text":"我認為回到教育部這邊我們家庭教育的預算實在是不能再這樣編下去當然立法委員沒有職權去擴張這個預算但是我們必須要積極的要求教育部必須要再更積極我認為這個相關的演繹必須要繼續那我們來看從家庭教育預算不足衍生另外一個荒謬的問題這是這兩天我們才收到的一個陳情在六都"},{"start":6201.758,"end":6211.241,"text":"某一個縣市推過度性教育措施事辦計劃,請學校輔導人員、本市學輔資中心的專任輔導人員持續輔導諮商工作,還叫這些人去做家庭輔導工作,強化家長瓜胡主要照顧者的親職教養能力。"},{"start":6227.165,"end":6228.646,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部總預算案有關教育部主管47所屬單位預算案"},{"start":6257.265,"end":6267.788,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬"},{"start":6279.572,"end":6298.319,"text":"發現家庭教育很重要會因著發現學府資中心的工作量人太多而要求學府資中心的人繼續去強化家庭教育但那本來應該是縣市政府有家庭教育中心本來就已經有拿走了錢拿走了預算但是家庭教育中心該做的事情不做推給學府資中心再再顯示家庭教育的困境不是嗎部長"},{"start":6299.499,"end":6314.369,"text":"我完全同意因為各地方縣市政府本來都有家庭教育中心所以我不知道是縣市政府誤會了學輔資中心的功能還是放任家庭教育中心該作為而沒有作為然後甚至這個事情最後要來我要來到這邊跟教育部討論"},{"start":6316.05,"end":6317.612,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機"},{"start":6333.246,"end":6357.399,"text":"家庭教育的需求出現了而家庭教育中心承接不住而在中央的終身教育司又沒有意識到自己在這件事情上有監督的責任有編列預算的責任甚至我們還提到教育部的人告訴我們就是沒有錢啊沒有錢就不能做啊那如果是這樣是不是我們乾脆就放棄家庭教育這一塊我們就正式的對外宣告家庭教育不再是我們教育部的責任我認為這一定不是部長您的想法"},{"start":6357.659,"end":6374.349,"text":"公務員報告確實我進來的時候也看到了這個家庭教育中心的功能應該怎麼樣來更積極來推動各項的一些親子之間的許多的一些發展性的一些功能所以我其實在這個部分我還特別拜託我們這個市長"},{"start":6376.59,"end":6398.972,"text":"一定在這個部份在未來要有更積極的一些看起來今年的預算我還是看不出積極的作為部長我們後續會再來討論我一定會在這個部份有一個更積極的一些好謝謝部長非常正面的承諾所以你看到這個困境所以我希望可以在兩個月內提供相關的書面報告給予整體的教育文化委員會的委員我相信所有委員都會關心家庭教育好來下一個"},{"start":6400.073,"end":6419.826,"text":"閱讀的事情我已經跟部長也談過很多次了我現在先回頭看二到六歲因為現在是屬於教育部主管二到六歲其實是在高等認知功能系統的關鍵期不管是他們的閱讀、數學運算、邏輯思考在二到六歲這個階段快速的發展如果我們回到所謂的幼兒園階段到底孩子們可以有什麼呢我們現在看下一頁"},{"start":6420.646,"end":6439.851,"text":"目前我們來看預算因為今天要談預算我們來看在教育部的預算0到2歲有所謂嬰幼兒閱讀禮帶大概花了300萬是由國台圖來執行或者是在2到6歲我們其實沒有看到2到6歲我們看不到國教署也沒有任何的態度可是6到7歲我們知道你們有了新生閱讀禮帶有充實國民中小學圖書計畫在國教法通過的時候我們有了3億但我要先說我覺得這還是太少"},{"start":6445.512,"end":6469.694,"text":"接下來閱推計畫有7500萬還有長書人員專案的預算是在地方政府可是整體的預算我們來看在閱讀其實路外教育部真的很少很少我一再一再一再的拜託部長部長你一定有清楚喔面對3C的困境我們除了增加校內的遊戲場我們增加多元課程的可能我們回到家庭教育但是如何把閱讀作為一種學習方法"},{"start":6470.394,"end":6483.042,"text":"協助現在數位時代的小孩我覺得已經是刻不容緩的任務所以我要再次提出閱讀資源的匱乏這件事情跟整體教育部在這件事情沒有認知到這是自己現在應該做的事情我覺得這是最大的問題那我們來看下一頁"},{"start":6485.663,"end":6504.933,"text":"目前我們找到幼兒園分班基本設施標準裡面我們看到了很棒有寢室、遊戲空間、儲藏空間、配散室、觀察室、資源回收區、生態教學園區其他有利教學活動室空間可是我們沒有談到讀書室其實我們在中小學是有讀書室的甚至教育部過往每年都有花所謂社區、圖書館的概念去"},{"start":6507.174,"end":6521.873,"text":"改善學校裡面的圖書館可是我們在幼兒園的部分完全沒有如果我們認為閱讀是從小就要培養起的一個學習方法甚至是面對3C時代的焦慮那我認為我們要從幼兒園就開始所以我也會積極提出下一頁"},{"start":6522.534,"end":6541.988,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6542.408,"end":6549.977,"text":"教育部在3個月內提供相關規劃報告跟委員報告我上任以後我確實要求我們國教署開始這個閱讀運動要繼續過去我們在2000年開始推閱讀運動我也認可委員剛才所提的"},{"start":6560.067,"end":6580.421,"text":"閱讀對兒童的一個發展、認知的一個發展我想那是最基礎的所以我們也透過這個全國教育局議處所長會議也鼓勵我們地方各級中小學教育的圖書館學校的圖書館搬到一樓然後成為一個社區的一個圖書館所以我們在這個閱讀的部分可能是我們過去忽略了可是因為二到六歲這一段我覺得現在既然加進教育部的業務"},{"start":6588.406,"end":6609.208,"text":"謝謝部長來接下來我們要講體育的預算來下一頁部長你知道去泰國一張機票多少錢嗎沒關係你不知道其實我也不知道但是我是看了荒謬的陳情我才知道目前去泰國機票來回一張大概是一萬到一萬二在體育署的學校新南向計畫裡面大概也是這個預算來看下一頁"},{"start":6610.893,"end":6616.597,"text":"體育署單項協會疑訊參賽平均泰國機票一張是13000到24000當然會因為運動種類的不同使用內容的不同有所差異但這也都還算合理可接受的範圍13000到24000可是我們來看一下足協泰國機票一張30000塊去鹿兒島33000"},{"start":6633.126,"end":6644.404,"text":"如果我拿三萬塊此時此刻我去網站上訂票部長我可以訂到商務艙中華航空的票所以我想問部長你覺得這個經費的使用有沒有問題啊"},{"start":6646.764,"end":6651.768,"text":"在相關的招標公告裡面我們認為他漫天開講他的寫法呢去他的寫法他認為有經過招標可是呢卻讓台灣足球界基層覺得質疑的是為什麼足協買的機票都這麼貴特別貴而且我們政府還買單來下一頁"},{"start":6670.985,"end":6692.055,"text":"然後呢一樣是去泰國的機票招標我們看到橄欖球協會他們自己就知道要訂定跳價上限可是一樣是單項協會的足協體育署就讓足協跟旅行社直接用市價行情的三倍去採購也難怪大家會覺得這件事情真的怪怪的而且這邊是經濟艙喔部長我剛給你的三萬塊足協花走的三萬塊是商務艙可是在剛剛那個招標案裡面是經濟艙"},{"start":6699.779,"end":6714.603,"text":"好再來看足球轉播部長認為一場足球轉播要多少錢我跟部長快速報告時間有限在2022年以前不管是5人制、11人制、足協的轉播補助金額大概都是跟市場行情相符的可是從2023年以後一場30萬的轉播變成了130萬"},{"start":6719.224,"end":6735.496,"text":"怎麼想都想不到為什麼是這個數字但我們的體育署只能照單全收我認為相關體育預算的執行我們真的要回過頭來好好檢討下一頁到底什麼樣的執行我們會認定它是失控它是不當的我們再來看下一頁"},{"start":6736.557,"end":6764.326,"text":"過去呢111年體育署的6年足球計畫用參賽補助的方法吸引非足球隊伍的報名換隊費造成決算超支1億的問題監察院已經提出糾正了在下一頁但是到了今年現在才11月中體育署在國際體育交流的部分已預算3億9但是執行已經是6億4超支了2億5千萬"},{"start":6765.826,"end":6791.872,"text":"所以今年下半年很多原本要出國的團隊跑來跟我們說他們被體育署告知因為預算的問題所以沒有辦法同意出國或是本來已經通過計劃被喊停如同民間所說的是不是運發基金是體育署官員的小金庫我認為這一定不是部長所可以接受的對照去年體育署宣布的國際賽事補助單項協會如果有盈餘不用繳回那我認為問題更大"},{"start":6793.192,"end":6817.743,"text":"作為立法委員我必須要拜託部長嚴肅的提醒教育部體育署不行也不應該成為單項協會的提款機而且相關的事情我覺得越來越多但我們對待選手卻越來越小氣有太多選手的狀況需要被解決但是單項協會把我們政府部門當成提款機的情況卻越來越嚴重部長我可不可以讓您簡單回答"},{"start":6818.763,"end":6845.291,"text":"委員的一個提醒我想我非常認同委員剛才所說的我們應該在整個程序招標的一些包含價格應該我們公務人員應該有一個先期的一些瞭解然後訂出一個這個公開招標合理的一個價格或者一些相關的規範那包含補助因為我也知道這個COVID-19以後許多的大型的一個國際的賽會確實是比較比較多的"},{"start":6847.992,"end":6858.719,"text":"部長我跟你說因為主席已經站起來了跟COVID-19沒有關係我剛已經給你看了在華航的商務艙那三萬塊已經可以買到商務艙部長我這邊有積極的調列室這個相關的資料拜託教育部帶回去我們內部來檢討我想在內積內控這一個部分我想我們應該要來更精進"},{"start":6869.025,"end":6885.969,"text":"好最後一個主席再一分鐘跟性別有關的事情沒辦法一分鐘已經超過了抱歉抱歉來全民育五人制足球項目我們收到一個陳情因為你已經超過那個饅頭是個委員我不是要把相關資料問完嗎我們來處理部長請回謝謝陳培育委員那我們下一位請林倩琦委員質詢那陳秀寶委員質詢完之後我們休息15分鐘好OK"},{"start":6901.876,"end":6920.817,"text":"主席、謝謝昭偉昭偉我是不是在開始前我可以先請幾位今天出席的相關人等先上台那你現在就請快好嗎好,OK,謝謝那感謝訂閱僕人還有今天出席的各學術單位還有那個"},{"start":6922.018,"end":6922.558,"text":"臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機"},{"start":6946.911,"end":6953.314,"text":"臺灣師範吳校長、高雄大學陳校長、東華大學徐校長臺灣大學陳校長、臺灣海洋大學徐校長、陽明交通大學林校長"},{"start":6967.466,"end":6974.212,"text":"高雄科技大學陽校長、臺灣科技大學臺南藝術大學、臺北藝術大學、臺灣藝術大學邱校長、陳校長、鍾校長、澎湖科技大學黃校長、高雄科技大學陳校長海洋科技、臺灣科技、科學工藝、臺灣藝術教育"},{"start":6995.299,"end":6999.684,"text":"臺灣體育運動大學徐校長、國立體育大學邱校長、臺灣戲曲學院李校長"},{"start":7011.906,"end":7037.531,"text":"好謝謝各位那因為我們是待會節省一下時間那因為我最後好的好謝謝主席好今天我是我先跟大家自我介紹一下啦我在學校的輩分是很很很小但是有很多系統性的議題想要跟各位大學的校長就教那也希望我們未來在推動的層面上能夠從臺灣整個高校的系統去做思考"},{"start":7038.631,"end":7054.357,"text":"當然我們還是維持大學自治跟精神價值的發展的一個大學精神所以我先簡單介紹一下為什麼今天會這樣系統性來談這個事情因為我本身是臺灣原住民族那我是阿美族"},{"start":7055.357,"end":7081.142,"text":"我簡單講一下我的背景但是我的背景後面有很大的一些想法要跟大家來討論另外我本身也是大學的老師所以我也在學校教書但是我一回國就到私立學校去教書因為我長期不懂為什麼在一個社會裡面會有公立大學、私立大學然後從這樣品牌我們那個年代因為是依照牌序所以我一直不太懂為什麼會有這樣子的概念所以我有我的選擇"},{"start":7082.182,"end":7082.742,"text":"藝術相關科系"},{"start":7115.504,"end":7131.094,"text":"前面是微觀的層面後面是聚觀的層面這個可能就要再麻煩教育部所以微觀的這個部分我想跟幾個大學的教授我們來談一下所以這個部分我可能先直接台政請教不好意思那個台大我們的校長是這樣"},{"start":7133.015,"end":7147.333,"text":"我不知道我們有沒有機會在臺大訪ROTC或者是做ROTC的這個program我們知道從政大以降都有一百多個學校參與了這個program那我相信這個program很多在各校不同的狀況"},{"start":7148.254,"end":7151.337,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學校院教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機"},{"start":7166.852,"end":7189.181,"text":"很多人是在這樣一個體系下但是我這邊要提的是不僅是在國防的這個部分我們也希望在原住民的教育是不是有機會從這樣子等級的學校能夠設計以原住民為主體的類ROTC概念的課程讓原住民有機會成為社會的中間分子"},{"start":7190.481,"end":7216.987,"text":"這個跟我長期以來社會對於原住民的概念常常把我們當成傳統的博物館在看待現在更往前推一點就是活生生的博物館但是我們期待等到哪一天原住民在這個社群可以成為中間份子的時候我想這樣一個想法會更為翻轉這個社會許多應該做人類本質上不應該存在的現象跟問題"},{"start":7217.967,"end":7240.032,"text":"所以這個是不是請臺灣大學幫我們做一個思考那我知道很多學校都有參與但是臺、然後清大、教大你們可能ROTC可是我剛才講的概念希望我們能夠一起來探討好嗎?謝謝那接下來接下來一個議題教育部知"},{"start":7240.572,"end":7263.911,"text":"負責的STEM專班高教師有負責的原專班我剛才談到的幾位校長你們學校都有這些專班原專班大概你們都知道怎麼用法現在的STEM其實跟過去的南向有一些關係但是現在又有一個新的形式基本上就是STEM"},{"start":7265.491,"end":7279.598,"text":"校長你們都知道這幾個字的縮寫是什麼但是呢我期待的是原專班是不是大家可以跳脫博物館的概念讓我們在現代社群裡面在現代社會的技術"},{"start":7280.558,"end":7309.619,"text":"公益、科學都可以有一些角色那這個不是只有教育部而已我相信司長其實在上個會期我們在討論的過程當中他說可以來試辦其實我自己本身也知道會有一些我們在剛開始一定是萬事起頭難但是各校有沒有機會讓原住民這種類STEM專班因為STEM基本上是這個國際學生但是我們可不可以再讓原住民的專班或者是原名的班有STEM導向的課程"},{"start":7310.339,"end":7311.98,"text":"教育部教育部長教育部教育部長"},{"start":7325.764,"end":7353.044,"text":"思考的自由度應該是我們有機會達成的如果我們都彼此聽得懂這個內容性的問題不知道是不是有原專班的學校跟有STEM現在在試辦的學校讓我們有機會放STEM這樣一個導向來建構原住民的班級或者是讓原住民有機會隨班複讀是不是可以請傑威校長這邊也來做一個思考我想你們都知道有原專班自己學校有原專班"},{"start":7354.339,"end":7372.253,"text":"接下來本席是文化上藝術導向層面的表演藝術所以我這邊幾個學校其實還不止我所列的這幾個學校其實很多學校都有表演藝術的相關科系沒有教到的也有可能有"},{"start":7373.354,"end":7397.475,"text":"所以我這邊要提的是說在本土化導向的藝術高校我相信現在許多的大學都會接到很多的計劃導向的案子那計劃導向可能USR、SEG或者是本土化很多這種東西但是在藝術導向的相關科系或學校我想請教如果這種本土化導向的藝術高校"},{"start":7398.916,"end":7422.047,"text":"如何在與世界接軌的目標下平衡我這樣簡單的一句話但是它關係到內容的專業性我們看下一頁大家可以看到這個是對不起往上再往上一下這個是我們臺灣的國藝其實不是只有臺灣專有然後右邊是我們原住民的樂舞然後這個在下角這邊是"},{"start":7423.807,"end":7429.231,"text":"教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部"},{"start":7450.225,"end":7450.765,"text":"獲得獎項獲得獎項獲得獎項獲得獎項"},{"start":7472.171,"end":7490.023,"text":"本來就已經是學這些技術型的專業是不是找出真正的點然後來處理這些問題簡單一句話但是後面很多專業我們再接下來下一句下一頁不好意思這個我要特別提醒戲曲學校"},{"start":7490.984,"end":7491.565,"text":"國立大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機"},{"start":7515.888,"end":7535.597,"text":"所以戲曲學校你們現在已經很困難了如果你們還要再把歌仔戲框成台灣本土戲曲也會很困難我這邊做一個個別性的提醒所以我剛才講到我有微觀跟聚觀我們再接下來不好意思我還是先回到藝術的層面我再提醒一個問題"},{"start":7538.007,"end":7554.868,"text":"有表演藝術相關系所的我本身作為一個原住民原住民族委員會已經要成立一個國家原住民族樂舞團我想請教一下各大專業校在這個國家原住民族樂舞團的平台上"},{"start":7555.836,"end":7575.431,"text":"有表演藝術相關的學校跟援助民族專班請問我們在這裡面可以扮演什麼樣子的角色我不希望這個樂舞團只是淪為一個園區的表演樂舞如果它是國家級不僅與世界各國接軌那有國際的程度這也是應該"},{"start":7576.972,"end":7601.638,"text":"我想我們很多的來源應該是從各大專院校所以請有原專班的學校然後有原資中心的學校還有有表演藝術科系的學校可以盤整一下那會後我都會一一的去把它爬書出來這是為什麼不好意思今天要請各大學的校長跟大家先有一些對話好那接下來最後"},{"start":7602.738,"end":7622.924,"text":"海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域、水域相關主題學校海域"},{"start":7630.819,"end":7646.261,"text":"能夠讓我們在非常Top的科技跟我們非常有條件的海域、水域包括河、溪、海如何能夠走出一條路那這個是我一個提醒當然也是我一個未來推動的重點"},{"start":7647.142,"end":7651.184,"text":"教育部教育部教育部教育部教育部"},{"start":7667.112,"end":7694.49,"text":"海生館等等有多少科技館所是有跟我們大學有一個很結構性的合作平台比如說大學生可以直接去戶外教學或者是這些館所跟我們在大學的教育有一些連結那不好意思這個是教育部要思考的各大學你們也可以思考一下有沒有但是我自己有班級經常會去這些館所我是一一都有去踏查過"},{"start":7696.03,"end":7710.574,"text":"但是我們都自己因為在私立大學相對有比較有點空間所以最後我看到了大學的基金其實很多大學很困難臺大我也跟你們有很多的我通常都是自己會第一先去探尋實際的狀況所以除了幾個學校以外其實"},{"start":7715.235,"end":7739.362,"text":"公司化治理導向的大學基金設置如何維持大學的教育精神我們現在有太多東西都在為職場就是國家的產業在準備請問我們大學的精神在哪裡我們是不是應該有獨立思考的能力讓我們在社會不會因為社會的困難、問題而惱動了我們"},{"start":7742.223,"end":7768.741,"text":"最後我提出一個解方政府應該藉由校務基金的改進跟收綁很多學校很困難甚至調整國立大學的法律地位使大學真正成了一個獨立自主經營的教育事業體但是在邁向自主之前也要有相對應之準備加強內部之管理跟自主責任的相符提高大學的績效達到大學教育的目標要不然就全部公共化"},{"start":7769.321,"end":7776.304,"text":"要不然就接受公立大學、私立大學的自由競爭這個是我還是給教育部的一個建言謝謝"},{"start":7801.554,"end":7802.336,"text":"請教育部政部長"},{"start":7812.142,"end":7831.767,"text":"委員好部長早安部長首先我要先來跟部長這邊就教一個我覺得非常嚴重的問題本期的選區某學校的校長傳出有涉及多起的性品事件那被害人呢這幾天陸續的出面指認教育部現在你們有掌握這個狀況嗎跟委員報告我們瞭解這個事情"},{"start":7837.27,"end":7848.876,"text":"有了解喔。我想知道說教育部這邊有沒有去了解說彰化縣教育處在之前有沒有收到過公益智這位校長的相關的申訴有沒有及時的處理?"},{"start":7851.383,"end":7864.898,"text":"章化縣政府現在已經也組成這個調查小組那是不是詳細的請署長能夠補充那署長您請說剛剛委員所提現在他組成審查會跟審查小組剛剛委員的議題會列入調查小組"},{"start":7870.003,"end":7873.365,"text":"在這個事情被爆出來之後呢其實陸續有家長指出說這個校長他的後台很硬那之前有人去申訴的話彰化縣教育處他都不許處理"},{"start":7887.193,"end":7903.564,"text":"但這個事情同時在我們地方也引起了很大很大的恐慌甚至我的辦公室、我的服務處連我自己本人都會一直受到有補習班、安親班老師打電話來問因為他們要適時的安撫學生這個學習的情緒所以他們必須要了解現在的狀況或是怎麼處理都會一直打來我服務處這邊問"},{"start":7905.285,"end":7930.87,"text":"所以他們也表達了這些疑慮的同時呢其實家長也都要求說第一個應該先將校長調離教育現場而且應該先停職接受調查那這個部分呢你們掌握到的說現在彰化縣政府是怎麼處理的跟委員報告確實彰化縣政府現在已經把這個校長調離這個本職然後已經也做了一個處理然後進行調查所以只是調離本職還沒有停職嗎"},{"start":7934.56,"end":7959.815,"text":"委員現在馬上先調離本職停職與否在三日內他們會做決定另外剛才委員講的我們絕對會追究到底好因為這個所有的這樣子的下案通報上來你們也是要照一定的程序會有一定的規範來處理那家長這邊還強烈的表達他們覺得說這樣子有正義的校長是不適合再回任的他們已經有這樣的訴求那家長會"},{"start":7961.956,"end":7980.709,"text":"委員會這邊也有再去彰化縣政府教育處來表達這樣的意願所以說我也希望說如果他確實以我們的法律規範他一定是他就必須要這個被這個不適任的校長當做成決議他就是一定要被撤職"},{"start":7982.209,"end":8002.457,"text":"因為不能影響學生相關學習的權益也不能影響我們學校整個校務跟學務的運作所以這個部分我希望我們教育部這邊要盯緊彰化縣政府教育處到底有沒有認真嚴謹的處理這個事情後續我會再繼續追蹤接下來我想請我們體育署的政署長"},{"start":8010.134,"end":8032.886,"text":"委員長 署長昨天我們世界棒球十二強我們中華隊真的很棒我們首戰就勝利了讓我們熱愛運動熱愛棒球的民眾們都非常的振奮但是在比賽前就有韓媒來報導說我們在大巨蛋練球期間有小孩子在球場上跑這個部分其實署長我昨天在司法委員會聯席的時候我就跟署長討論過了關於我們奧亞運單項協會這個管理的問題"},{"start":8037.088,"end":8051.977,"text":"那我們的棒協這次被韓媒這樣子批評我想知道說我們體育署有沒有去了解這個狀況是什麼報告委員棒協當然他對我們的描述是依照他公開的聲明目前是這樣子"},{"start":8053.433,"end":8080.264,"text":"那署長您會覺得說以棒協這樣的態度他們是真的是管理不周或者說他是其實他根本內部是非常的鬆散昨天晚上已經有明確的請黎署長在這部分署長你也這樣子覺得齁其實本席在昨天在思考委員會聯席的時候我也一直跟您強調其實民眾都是希望說不要再出包他們都期待說我們的各單項協會呢應該把他們的工作做好那我們照顧好我們的選手照顧好我們的球員"},{"start":8081.064,"end":8100.017,"text":"那我覺得說這是真的是很基本很基本的要求但是面對一個這麼重要的比賽他們用這麼輕忽的態度我覺得說不只是韓媒這樣子他們會覺得很傻眼其實我們自己在地的民眾我們自己國人都會覺得很失望說你面對一個這麼重要的棒球的比賽"},{"start":8100.757,"end":8126.974,"text":"那你們在這個場地的這個管理上你們竟然是用這樣子輕忽的態度可見真的說我們的單項協會要努力要進步的空間還非常非常地大所以我這邊要求說我們體育署以及將來的運動部對於我們這個單項協會這個監督的工作一定要做好署長你覺得呢幫委員這個我們會再加強督導的好謝謝署長那你先請回那我現在再請教我們部長"},{"start":8128.7,"end":8140.173,"text":"在第10屆第6期會議的時候,教育委員會委員都有提案要求教育部要營業在各級學校免費提供生理用品給有需要的學生使用教育部也從善如流,從112年就開始辦理"},{"start":8144.258,"end":8166.768,"text":"但是目前學生團體反映在大學的部分實際上是發生了一些問題例如說學生們覺得說領取的程序太繁瑣領取的這個地點太少還有呢要採登記制呢讓學生覺得說他們隱私這樣子有顧慮有疑慮所以他們不願去領取導致有的學校甚至一個學期只發出40份"},{"start":8167.408,"end":8180.103,"text":"這是沒有辦法減輕學貸負擔也沒有實際的幫助到學生也辜負了我們教育部文化的這個美意政策的美意甚至許多學生會他們是要自己去找廠商來贊助然後來幫助學校的學生"},{"start":8183.907,"end":8208.644,"text":"這樣子的狀況比較多是會發生在私立大學因為以學生團體的表達來講他們覺得公立大學可能因為他們的經費是比較充足的這比較沒有相關的問題那我想請教部長像這樣的問題我們教育部是不是可以研議相關的就是領取措施就是類似一個指引來供學校參考並且我們來向私立大學來了解說這個推行上有什麼困難這個可以嗎"},{"start":8209.404,"end":8237.338,"text":"我想謝謝委員關心我們這個學生的許多的生理的這個用品的這個使用跟這個他的一個支持那我想我們所有的大學校長在這邊在陳主委員所提的在這一個部分我想大學在這一個部分他會大部分我們的了解都是用來支持他不會去登記啊然後有很繁瑣的一些程序倒是委員剛才所提的私立大學這裡邊我們來"},{"start":8240.1,"end":8261.056,"text":"國立大學的幾多經驗在大學之間能夠互相分享?或是大學端提供免費生理的用品有什麼困境?我們來看怎麼樣協助?謝謝部長您的承諾,那很多學生團體都指出他們希望說有訂定指引我們教育部當初有沒有訂定一個發放的指引?"},{"start":8262.396,"end":8285.941,"text":"我們是有訂指引的是不夠清楚還是不夠符合實際使用的狀況嗎這份指引在當中討論的時候是經過很充分的討論其實基本上都從一些方向性來給學校但是很多學校的學生會都表達說他們覺得你們也還要提供指引所以是不是沒有符合實際使用的狀況我們來更主動的來了解那個問題到底在哪裡"},{"start":8290.382,"end":8292.163,"text":"教育部教育部長教育部教育部教育部教育部教育"},{"start":8316.581,"end":8344.822,"text":"但是呢其實學習歷程檔案一直是補習班他們的附帶課程那也有一些廣告他會說會有兩千元的這個學檔的範本那如果說是實作的這種實作的實作本呢就是有五千塊起跳那這個問題是不是也反映出了我們如果有比較經濟弱勢的學生他們所學到他們所得到這些學習檔案的資源協助是不是是比較少了"},{"start":8345.362,"end":8359.857,"text":"或不會說這樣的商品主打對象其實不是學生而是家長因為家長不放心所以這些不管是兩千的學習範本還是說五千的實作本這個都是賣給家長來安心的"},{"start":8361.499,"end":8380.86,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個學習歷程檔案我想我們當時會在推動其實他真的就是希望學生他在想像未來勇於追夢的過程他怎麼去安排他的許多的學習活動能夠很清楚的然後當然也可以逐步隨著發展去做修正我們教育部"},{"start":8382.141,"end":8391.908,"text":"現在大概只要寒暑假或是立假日有空只要我們地方需要我們都會以業秉承、業務補助部長我們來看我們根據審計報告來看108課綱從第一屆到第三屆高中畢業生學習歷程檔案沒有提交的比例是越來越增加其中經濟弱勢的學生未提交的比例在學習課程成果"},{"start":8405.958,"end":8433.223,"text":"課程學習成果以及多元表現都是節節攀升其中最高來到有62.32%的比例沒有提交這個數字是不是就是顯示說即將經濟弱勢的學生他們關於學習歷程檔案製作的資源比較少其實一般經濟比較弱勢的學生他在下課後可能有家務要做可能要打工可能要賺錢家長可能會擔心但是其實我們大學校長都在這裡我們相信大學校長"},{"start":8433.823,"end":8434.664,"text":"學習歷程答案是否升學需要的準備項目之一?"},{"start":8449.26,"end":8468.085,"text":"申請入學不一定要學習歷程檔它也可以用PPT或是用PDF用其他的一些方式所以說是不是我們應該要提供更多的協助讓這些學生來瞭解我們來製作的這個過程裡面我們不一定要花很多錢我們不一定要去補習因為非常少數的其實我們知道"},{"start":8472.047,"end":8478.294,"text":"這一個民間有一些商業的行為那當然經濟情況...那部長您有了解到說未提交比率一直上升的原因嗎?就我們的一個掌握它其實是維持在一個很低的比率因為我們有問過第一線上的高中的一些教長未提交比率在弱勢學生裡面佔62.32%"},{"start":8493.12,"end":8514.217,"text":"那這樣子啦部長因為今天時間不多齁這個你們去了解你們去實際了解未提交的比率一直上升的這個原因你們找出原因然後我希望你們可以再多增加能力跟經費來協助我們的學生來了解這個學黨的製作這個學黨的這個過程其實是要幫助他們而不是要扼殺他們升學的路是"},{"start":8514.617,"end":8516.958,"text":"關於幼兒園財閥數及稽查人力的問題部長幼兒園教學教保的品質一直是我們家長都非常非常關心的但是近三年幼兒園違規財閥件數是增加的趨勢"},{"start":8533.546,"end":8543.629,"text":"這部分我們可以把它說成就是我們稽查很確實但是我們看到稽查人力的部分其實我們每位稽查員平均要負擔46.43間的幼兒園我們登記我們有統計出來的幼兒園的加數是7057但是我們的稽核人力只有152"},{"start":8553.971,"end":8555.934,"text":"非教育相關科系佔比47.3%每一個警察員要負擔的這麼多間幼兒園一天走一個 一個月走不完還要分成兩個月來走"},{"start":8570.352,"end":8588.014,"text":"教育部應該如何配置增加相關的集合能力提升專業讓這些集合人員可以比較落實確實的集合校園安全提供給孩子安全學習的環境讓家長可以放心"},{"start":8589.055,"end":8617.637,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心確實這個怎麼確保幼兒的一個教育品質這是我們都跟委員一樣的關心我想在這個部分我們中央怎麼跟地方來共同來努力包含這些稽查人力會教育相關這個的人員我們也都有這個真人然後也列入考核所以我想這個部分特別在地方許多的幼兒園確實在地方這個部分我想"},{"start":8618.237,"end":8625.312,"text":"他必須要有承擔更多的責任但是我們願意跟地方來做一些合作來確保幼兒的這些教育品質"},{"start":8626.121,"end":8641.217,"text":"因為很明顯你看到這個人力的這個不足的部分其實在數據上可以明顯的看到那所以說我們該怎麼跟地方政府這邊來配合來協助這個部分也請教育部一定要用心謝謝文謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢那部長請回署長請回我們現在先休息15分鐘"},{"start":9567.931,"end":9575.199,"text":"請各位先就座那我現在繼續開會請大家先就座"},{"start":9597.034,"end":9614.666,"text":"來接下來請郭益晴委員質詢謝謝主席剛剛大家在休息的時間差點要喊萬老師要上課囉好有請部長請曾部長委員好"},{"start":9625.148,"end":9643.602,"text":"部長早安我想今天這麼多的大學校長都在這裡但我們先來談一下這個0到6歲我們幼兒園的問題那從衛福部統計的這個性侵害的案件當中被害人跟兩造關係交叉的統計那我們可以看到從108年到112年"},{"start":9646.544,"end":9648.786,"text":"在幼兒園發生所謂的性侵害的案件"},{"start":9666.272,"end":9682.534,"text":"比例其實很高這個還是有通報的案件數高達了有15件那我相信還有更多是沒有辦法通報或沒有辦法呈案的案件數目前都還沉在海底"},{"start":9683.435,"end":9708.036,"text":"我想這個部分其實也給我們一個非常大的警訊我們來探究一下幼兒園發生這些案件難以成案的一個關鍵的原因在於哪裡第一我相信0到6歲的孩子他們在語言表達的能力上可能會稍微比較有一些限制當父母親接受到孩子再回到家中之後"},{"start":9708.676,"end":9711.397,"text":"教育部所屬機教育部所屬機教育部所屬機教育部所屬機"},{"start":9734.266,"end":9763.642,"text":"就是臺北市郎屍性侵案的幼兒園的故事的翻版的時候自己的孩子是受害人其實爸爸媽媽都崩潰了好那第二個呢就是在證據蒐集上的一個困難那我們當然知道其實就像他所說的孩子是一天一天慢慢的像擠牙膏似的把他在學校的經過很片段不是連貫性的去闡述去描述"},{"start":9763.882,"end":9769.191,"text":"﹚一、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金﹚一、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金﹚一、審查114年度教育部所屬機"},{"start":9774.144,"end":9798.945,"text":"再來即使有所謂的監視器但是仍有保存的一些問題或者是它剛好壞掉又或者是在學校的這些教保人員或者是老師他是有可以刪除證據的權利職權的時候其實我們蒐證更加的困難那我想幼兒園的安裝監視器其實是有它的一個必要性"},{"start":9800.105,"end":9817.397,"text":"昨天剛好是在全國幼教產業工會他們也特別表示不反對幼兒園要按全面安裝所謂的監視器但是後端的一些資料上的管理資料上的保存以及授權還有審查的部分可能會需要我們中央政府這邊"},{"start":9818.517,"end":9842.154,"text":"來做這樣子的一個統一的管理我想加裝的必要性除了是保護孩子以外最重要的就是當事件發生之後如果有所爭議不光是只有所謂的性侵害的一個事件以外對於所謂的不當管教這個其實安裝監視器對於所謂的老師也是可以保護他們的權益這個部分我想部長您怎麼看"},{"start":9843.227,"end":9862.695,"text":"我非常同意委員所說的監視器我們當然一方面就是幼兒的一個受教權益幼兒都是每一個家長家庭的一個寶他發生這些被侵犯的一些不幸我想我們都非常不捨也難過那以目前我們全國的幼兒園的這個監視器我們大概已經裝到53%"},{"start":9866.596,"end":9866.636,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":9886.118,"end":9901.715,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9901.715,"end":9903.776,"text":"獲得授權及限制調閱權利及紀錄保存相關使用規範或調閱資料及紀錄規範可否在三個月內提供?"},{"start":9920.504,"end":9927.609,"text":"一、審查一、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、"},{"start":9942.518,"end":9957.686,"text":"但是配套不足是我對他的一個解釋那我想在第一個會期其實就108課綱所帶來的在教育現場不管是學生端、老師端或者是家長的部分他們對於所謂的108課綱所帶來的一些衝擊目前都還是還是"},{"start":9962.068,"end":9991.083,"text":"有很多不同的看法跟很多不同的爭議那我想呢這個部分我們先來探究一下這個老師跟學校是不是有足夠的時間跟資源可以來幫助孩子在自主學習的計畫當中那根據這個EDU他們的一個資料統計2024年還有相比2023年那學生呢他在自主學習的部分最佔最大的一個比例是第一個我根本想不到主題"},{"start":9991.943,"end":10005.272,"text":"那48%的學生說學校安排的自主學習的時間不夠讓我能夠完成這個計畫第三個最前三名只不了解應該要如何撰寫這個計畫書"},{"start":10007.673,"end":10034.184,"text":"雖然我們知道其實從108課剛開始有一些變動的時候高中的老師其實他們的有一些時數是有相對的稍微降低一點點大概平均是2到3堂降低2到3堂最主要的是希望能夠讓老師也有時間充裕的時間能夠輔導這些沒有方向的孩子在所謂的自主學習上的一個幫助跟輔助那他們也能夠有時間來準備課程"},{"start":10036.425,"end":10046.958,"text":"但是顯然我們看到這個數據上的一個調查,似乎老師的loading還是蠻重的,這個部分部長怎麼看?謝謝委員提醒,確實我們在108課綱我們本來就是有一個對這個學生的學習上有一些典範的改變"},{"start":10055.709,"end":10074.608,"text":"我們過去的教學都是比較是單向性然後大概學生只是配合老師的一些教學進度我們當然也希望說學生在自主學習裡面他能夠有一些時段能夠自己選擇他自己在學科或者在許多興趣專長上發展這個又衍生到第二個問題因為今天時間的關係"},{"start":10077.771,"end":10093.432,"text":"我們在這個部分陳委員剛才所提的在許多施施人力我們減少老師的一個行政工作我們事實上也投入了1400位然後的老師增加希望能夠協助第一線上能夠降低老師的許多的行政壓力"},{"start":10095.535,"end":10121.748,"text":"然後這時候老師就有更多的時間可以來協助學生我像這個是相對的我們是往這個方向在努力在前進當中那第二個部分我想要問的就是所謂的多元選客到底有沒有多元到底多元選客有沒有多元這件事情其實我相信有很多的這個現場第一線的老師也特別來跟我們反映甚至學生跟家長也特別跟我們反映他說有一些多元選客"},{"start":10123.96,"end":10138.677,"text":"會拿來補課捏因為政課可能就上不完了所以其實多元選課的部分的時間可能會拿來做補課或者是多元選課的科目是不有趣的這個也是我們現場收到的一些訊息"},{"start":10139.818,"end":10161.78,"text":"那我想這裡有一個圖表比較關鍵的部分我們來看一下這也是EDU在1329份的一個調查當中449位他們說他選不到自己喜歡的課程456位的學生他說這個課程真的沒有辦法多元所以也沒辦法找到自己有興趣的一個主題跟這樣子的一個方式所以選課的"},{"start":10162.921,"end":10178.075,"text":"多元性我相信可能有68%的學生還是認為他還是過於狹隘啦那其實這個部分我們請教一下齁就是多元選課這個部分目前教育部收到了現場的狀況大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":10178.675,"end":10201.304,"text":"我想委員剛才所提的都有少數的學校會有這樣一個問題我們來精進但是也利用這個機會我要拜託我們所有的這些大學校長因為當我們在人才培育在典範改變的時候怎麼樣善用這個大學校長大學的資源我們知道在座的很多的大學校長他是支持的"},{"start":10201.544,"end":10203.546,"text":"部長講到重點,那也要大學校長願意同意他們的時數,他們的這個應該算是終點費,可不可以支撐他們去學校多元選特價?可以嗎?願意的舉手好了"},{"start":10218.5,"end":10240.337,"text":"我知道我們有很多大學他是鼓勵老師的專長到高中去開課那甚至他們會納入這個老師的基本授課時數還會補充補助老師的交通費我想因為本來我們高中的老師他本來是以學科來培養當我們希望有學生有更多元的一些選擇"},{"start":10241.758,"end":10257.826,"text":"的一些機會的時候所以課程的終點費跟多元選課我們跟著能夠一起一起來面往上這個部分我們事實上一直在努力而且大學有許多的老師他們默默在協助高中職學生的一些多元的一些發展是"},{"start":10258.286,"end":10276.014,"text":"好 因為等一下主席可能30秒就會站起來好 我們今天帶主席不知道30秒會不會站起來時間有限 最後一題我來問一下下就是關於學習歷程檔案的這個部分那學習歷程檔案一直以來當然我們其實也討論過很多很多次"},{"start":10276.454,"end":10301.204,"text":"上次其實部長跟葉秉成次長也特別來我的辦公室也特別有特別提到這個學習歷程檔案的部分那我們必須說這個是訓練學生非常好的一個方式把自己的學習歷程不管是從高一、高二一直到了高三但是目前我們看到其實很多的學生他們比較擔憂的是高一、高二跟高三其實他們的學習歷程檔案跟他們的性向其實是會完全南轅北轍"},{"start":10305.446,"end":10324.919,"text":"接著下來可能要選擇大學的科系可能也跟他原本的學習歷程檔案其實也都完全不相關雖然大學教授可能會覺得說沒有關係就算你的學習歷程檔案跟我的科系其實沒有相關但我們還是依舊會看還是希望能夠把這個學習歷程檔案做得更加的完整"},{"start":10326.26,"end":10346.739,"text":"當學習歷程做得更加的完成的時候其實就很多所謂的現場的歪風就出來了關學習歷程檔案你只要打上去所有的文章出現的時候中間可能就會夾帶一行叫做廣告學習歷程檔案不知道怎麼做嗎請點陳阿姨教你點進去就是補習班部長這個部分我們怎麼解套啊"},{"start":10348.197,"end":10366.534,"text":"我想確實這個來自於民間的許多的這個商業行為我想我們來努力因為就我們高中端的老師的提醒大概會用到補習班的不到2%所以其實他是非常低位那以我所了解的以台大"},{"start":10367.034,"end":10387.92,"text":"我現在葉次長不到2%對不對你講到2%又剛剛好接著下來我要扣的主題上次其實葉秉成這個次長有特別講到他希望所謂的多元選才我們希望真的不要只有2%他希望再往更高的方向多元選才其實看的就是學習歷程檔案但是現在我們光是數字統計下來他不是2%欸糟糕了他只有1.5%欸他的門是這麼的窄"},{"start":10395.882,"end":10405.948,"text":"但是希望用學習歷程檔案多元選材的學生有將近30%以上我是說多元選材看學習歷程檔案的門檻或者是條件我們是不是可以再放寬一點點讓更多想要因為學習歷程做得很好的學生可以侵入到他們理想的科系這沒有問題我們來研議看怎麼樣讓學生有真正能夠"},{"start":10424.938,"end":10439.553,"text":"他這個選擇他的生涯裡面能夠適性發展有更好的機會、更多的機會我們機會很多,我們隨時討論,滾動式的討論好,謝謝我們的部長,謝謝主席謝謝,謝謝委員謝謝,部長請回座,謝謝郭益勤委員質詢接下來請林怡瑾委員質詢"},{"start":10456.034,"end":10457.075,"text":"謝主席有請部長請政部長委員好部長好"},{"start":10469.445,"end":10499.445,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10499.545,"end":10502.327,"text":"委員會主管124年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管"},{"start":10529.965,"end":10546.014,"text":"即便從2016年學年度開始大專院校STEM領域學生的占比有微幅的提升在2023學年的占比為升到34.2%但整理的人數是持續下降的"},{"start":10546.754,"end":10553.416,"text":"二、審查2011年度教育部主管48所國立大學校院教育部主管2013年度教育部主管37所國立大學校院教育部主管"},{"start":10567.461,"end":10585.427,"text":"本席認為如何培養更多的女力來加入STEM領域或許是一個解決困境的解方我們檢視一下高等教育女性畢業於STEM領域的比例自2008學年到2022學年"},{"start":10587.948,"end":10611.648,"text":"十五年的時間雖然女性的占比確實有微幅的提升從22.7%到26.16%其實也提升了3.46%而已那除了說這個提升的幅度不高以外其實整體的比例還是偏低那我們再看看大專院校各領域學生人數的性別比"},{"start":10612.548,"end":10615.33,"text":"性別隔離現象明顯,尤其是資訊、通訊、科技、工程、製造、營建等領域,女性佔比偏低,不到三成。"},{"start":10627.399,"end":10651.835,"text":"我可以理解說教育部、國科會其實都有注意到這個問題所以我們也推動很不少策略要鼓勵女性來投入STEM領域想要請教部長在這些諸多的策略女性在STEM領域占比持續偏低可是卻沒有明顯提升你認為原因是什麼那是不是要"},{"start":10653.576,"end":10682.574,"text":"怎麼樣處理才有機會讓它突破超過三成?部長謝謝我們關心我們高等教育人才培育確實它是關係到我們產業是不是能夠在全球繼續引領風潮當領頭羊那我想這是非常有價值的那我利用這個機會我要再一次的感謝我們所有的大學校長為什麼?其實當我們看到STEM或者所謂的理工科的學生因為少子"},{"start":10683.174,"end":10685.416,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部主管47所屬單位預算案有關教育部所屬機"},{"start":10698.426,"end":10722.679,"text":"幾多人文社會科學管理的這一個所謂人文社會科學它在大學端裡邊因為它的興趣它也可以自己開發APP所以我覺得我們過去的這一個統計數字比較是傳統的一個思維就是說都是理工的才叫做STEM可是我們潛在的人文社會這一個部分事實上有很多年輕人他已經在跨域學習"},{"start":10723.659,"end":10732.704,"text":"所以在未來能夠怎麼樣更清楚理解我們整個人才培育跟產業上的一個需求對 正如部長您剛講就是說我們教育部其實就是有跨領域像說我們2021就有開始推動大專院校這個STEM領域即女性研發人才的培育計畫"},{"start":10745.091,"end":10766.24,"text":"陳盧部長您說的我們是鼓勵學生跟教研人員來投入STEM領域以及跨領域的研究當然我們要建立所謂的女性友善的學習研發環境可是我們來看教育部在2021合併了28校有55個案隔年有合併38個校有92個案可是2023年又降到"},{"start":10772.222,"end":10794.899,"text":"二十四個學校、四十三個案子到今年才只有11個學校、15個案子全臺灣大約有150所大專院校可是參與你這個計畫的人其實看起來並不多所以你不曉得就講到部長說你有沒有掌握說到底原因在哪裡那是審核比較嚴格還是說參與這種計畫的學校這個興趣缺缺"},{"start":10798.707,"end":10821.726,"text":"跟委員報告其實就我的理解現在的大學特別國立大學裡邊他們不管透過通識或者有許多的畢業上的對他們學校的一個特色發展人那個能力的培養比如說Coding這個程式設計等等的這些東西大概都已經列為現在年輕人他的一個基本的一個能力素養那當然委員所提的那個絕對的一個素質我會後我再來瞭解"},{"start":10824.488,"end":10850.845,"text":"但是我相信以我們現在國立大學大部分的學校在這個部分他們並沒有我簡單來說就是說他們並不會因為沒有這個計畫就來減低在人才培育上的那個圖像上的一個減少那這個部分我們來看到底是這個計畫數的減少到底是因為經費或者因為什麼樣一個原因我想會後我"},{"start":10851.605,"end":10871.655,"text":"因為我們有觀察這項計畫的預算編列2022年度是兩億2023跟今年的預算也差不多兩億多可是我們看明年的預算我們要省明年預算就上升到三億兩千多所以支持女性教研人員的培育女學生"},{"start":10872.515,"end":10897.834,"text":"其實也頂多加碼到一個案子400萬最高那所以我不曉得說為什麼這一個本來都兩月多為什麼每年變成三月兩千多我們本來就是認可這個特別對女性的這個STEM的人才、跨域人才上的培養本來就是大家共同的一個核心價值那也是大學校長他們都積極在推動那就要再積極push"},{"start":10898.294,"end":10915.123,"text":"因為很明顯嘛案子越來越少就是說參加的學校也越來越少可是我們經費確實是一直在變越來越多根本報告我們是在這個參與的大概我們的數據都超過一半以上在你信這一個STEAM的這一個部分"},{"start":10916.484,"end":10933.317,"text":"除了支持女性投入STEM領域外鼓勵非理工人才跨界到STEM領域也是一種方法所以教育部去年也有推出STEM領域學士後專班"},{"start":10934.639,"end":10954.18,"text":"去年也是合併9個學校有33個班可是只有4個學校然後6個班開班今年我們合併了17個學校開了32個班可是9月開始的秋季班其實也只有5個學校6個班來開班所以看起來成班率不是很理想"},{"start":10954.52,"end":10969.14,"text":"跟委員報告其實我因為我自己從大學來我也了解因為有一些學校他考慮到他師資的這一個能量是怎麼樣確保教育的品質那有一些學校他能夠"},{"start":10970.542,"end":10995.641,"text":"來支持這一個配合政策去培養更多人才學士後學問班的這樣一個人才當然我們心存感激但是也確實許多大學端他們本來就已經在跨領域所以在校生不管是人文社會科學的學院的學院他隨時都也學校也都提供一個跨領域或者學位學程或者已經幾多年的管道在培養我們的人才"},{"start":10999.104,"end":11016.775,"text":"既然有那麼好的案子,我是覺得還是要來檢討,來更精進的作為,讓這個案子可以充分的被利用。那我想接著要跟您討論,就是說之前有大學的校內性別友善廁所發生偷拍的事件"},{"start":11017.735,"end":11040.543,"text":"學生向學校性評會申訴後發生承辦人員硬打的態度有一些失專業的態度讓學生感到無奈經過學校處理之後該名的承辦人員已經掉離現職可是性評委員指出該學校的性評會應該要設置兩名承辦人員"},{"start":11043.984,"end":11059.677,"text":"學校端到現在還沒有找到第二個人員以至於說這個性評會其實到現在還是只有一個專責人員在處理那麼龐大的業務那我想用這個案子其實我們可以來好好的檢視就是說其實"},{"start":11062.259,"end":11079.813,"text":"我們現在性貧意識抬頭所以其實各校通報性貧的案件其實是逐年上升所以我們是必要有充足的人力來處理這個相關的性貧業務所以我想說面對這樣的問題現況當然我們很清楚知道啦就人才招募很困難"},{"start":11081.214,"end":11107.231,"text":"專業性不足人員更迭也很頻繁因為你這個其實是要有很專業的他可能要去說一些定期的培訓還有相關的什麼背景所以我想這個的人員的招聘不是那麼容易可是我覺得我們還是要想辦法去處理這件事情所以是不是教育部這邊要來輔導學校學校端來好好的處理性平人員的事"},{"start":11108.132,"end":11126.559,"text":"議長,我想性別平權已經是普世的價值。我們所有的校長也都在現場,他們都聽到了。我相信在這個人力上,怎麼樣讓他提供一個適當的專業人力來協助學校的性平工作的推動。"},{"start":11129.011,"end":11148.386,"text":"我們一起來努力我們不能讓性平位好像空有性平位在那裡可是實際上功能不彰就有學生指出說現在學校的性平位很像沒吃飽又沒睡飽的菜鳥餵兵缺乏人力跟資源事實上是嚴重的"},{"start":11149.867,"end":11152.208,"text":"各級學校性評會設置辦法與要點學務處、秘書處主責性評相關業務指派專人辦理行政業務學校性評會規模大"},{"start":11170.398,"end":11178.603,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":11188.536,"end":11214.29,"text":"我們來努力來跟大學端來合作看怎麼樣來促成這樣的一個提升這個因為我覺得是這樣第一個要盤點就是我們有多少比例的學校是沒有定期來實施所謂職工的性品的這個在職進修那對於這個各級學校行政人力不足的部分我想教育部也要來努力好不好因為這部分其實性品案件層出不窮"},{"start":11214.95,"end":11232.424,"text":"我覺得學校要有機智、有能力來處理這個問題好不好?部長謝謝部長謝謝委員、謝謝委員執政謝謝林一金委員的質詢部長請回我們下一位是張雅琳委員質詢"},{"start":11244.595,"end":11244.795,"text":"實驗教育"},{"start":11267.861,"end":11290.613,"text":"因為人類的存在它的美是因為個別差異每一個人在我們政府提供的一個體制內的一個教育當然它維持有一定的水準那我基本上的一個看法當我們的供給量演大於需求量我們應該要有政府應該主動去鼓勵也應該把那個友善的環境讓更多"},{"start":11292.453,"end":11310.421,"text":"讓有一定比例的這些青少年或學生有另類的學習機會這是我基本上的看法部長您認為多元性、多樣性讓每一個人可以擁有適合自己的教育模式尤其在現在少子化的狀態之下"},{"start":11311.681,"end":11312.462,"text":"實驗教育三法"},{"start":11343.002,"end":11361.33,"text":"實驗教育已經成為父母在選擇學校的重要考量學生人數也成長了12倍我們可以看到這張圖部長就會非常清楚的知道實驗教育的人數已經達到了2.5萬在學校形態的有14,326人非學校形態的有11,360人所以我們選擇非學校形態的人數正在上升"},{"start":11368.914,"end":11382.559,"text":"那剛剛呢我們部長其實也有提到要多元化那的確在我們的教育基本法上面其實有第8條裡面是賦予說家長可以依法律的選擇受教育的一個方式"},{"start":11386.127,"end":11406.559,"text":"教育的選擇權是每個家長應該具有的權利而非只有一種次要的選擇這種權利應該要受到尊重而且政府有責任的去確保這種權利不會受到侵害但實驗教育三法裡面也有講到學校在這三法中的學校形態實驗教育實施條例以及國際中等"},{"start":11407.159,"end":11429.978,"text":"以下教育階段非學校型態實驗教育實施條例裏面也有確定了這個多元化的一個保障所以我想請部長來好好思考我們如何從國家教育權走向國民教育權尤其在12年國教的基本實施計畫裏面其實是有載明了國中小免學費的政策"},{"start":11431.663,"end":11447.668,"text":"現在高中的實驗教育學生已經享有了政府補助但是我們現在在國民醫務教育階段的實驗教育卻還是沒有相關的學費補助我認為我們不應該讓學費成為一個教育選擇權的一個代名詞"},{"start":11449.228,"end":11474.763,"text":"那我們之前其實已經問過了那當時教育部國教署其實有回覆我們說現在這個已經有針對於低收入戶中低收入戶以及特殊教育學生來有提供補助但我想請教的是部長您是全台所有學生的教育部長而不是只有選擇學校體制的教育部長那您認為我們是不是可以在"},{"start":11475.743,"end":11476.944,"text":"議員主席議員主席議員主席"},{"start":11504.739,"end":11527.647,"text":"議務教育階段在這裡邊它還有一些其他的一個學校的一個型態呈現那基本上它還是在一般的我們的這個課程跟上課的一些規範那我想這裡邊它是一個涉及到比較整體的所以是不是容我們再來更精進的再來逐步來"},{"start":11527.927,"end":11547.774,"text":"好那部長我希望我們就是可以來是不是可以照競速來召集地方相關主管機關來討論補助方案因為其實我們高中職也都高中職都有一些補助嘛那國民義務教育是不是也可以依循這樣子的方式來補助那希望不就是一個月內是不是可以請部長提供一個眼裡的辦法給我呢"},{"start":11549.212,"end":11574.72,"text":"方向大概辦完因為就整體來看還有一些學校他事實上是受法令上的一些規範對我了解包含這一個修法這可能都不是一個禮拜裡邊就能夠完成沒有一個月一個月裡邊能夠完成我們那個方向我們倒是可以來跟委員報告那一個月內可以來報告是嗎好謝謝"},{"start":11576.86,"end":11604.452,"text":"那再來就是說其實我之前一直不停的在請部長來支持就是說我們學生自殺自傷的人數一直持續的在上升嘛那我們最近也修了學生輔導法希望可以來加碼支持我們的學生但是我想這個部分我們想要特別強調就是國中端的部分目前我們在國中端其實實務上面它就是一直在增加但是我也收到了這個之前我們其實有問過嘛那其實"},{"start":11611.116,"end":11623.244,"text":"有關於本方案往下延伸至國民小學,涉及學生適合的心理諮商範圍及聯名範圍、心理健康服務內容等等等等,是否需要同意學校等等,你們要跟衛福部持續的來討論。"},{"start":11629.609,"end":11634.093,"text":"高中以下學生為常見精神疾病治好幫族群,應透過精神醫療診斷"},{"start":11639.904,"end":11667.131,"text":"這個是衛福部的一個回應那我想問一下因為我們其實現在在15到45歲是有提供這個三次的心理諮商費用雖然說衛福部的回應是說高中以下兒校常見疾病應該要先透過精神醫療來進行診斷但是我們目前還是有提供15到45歲高中生階段就有這三次的服務那為什麼國中生可不可以也來研究一下有沒有適合的服務方案呢針對國中生的部分"},{"start":11668.444,"end":11668.564,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11688.012,"end":11715.453,"text":"這是心理諮商不是身心條是這樣心理諮商這個我想我們我來跟衛福部來研議看怎麼樣來對我想因為既然這部分我就希望就是說再麻煩部長跟署長持續來跟衛福部溝通我們一起來守護學童的心理健康因為每一個孩子都這麼的珍貴尤其在小子化的現在那是不是說一個月以內也可以給我相關的書面報告那我也會再召開會議再邀請署長一起來討論"},{"start":11716.474,"end":11716.695,"text":"請署署長"},{"start":11730.677,"end":11747.828,"text":"好,我想我們最近一直在討論運動部的事情嘛然後我們也有相關的一些計畫要支持我們的選手啊我們也有這些全民運動的一些方案等等的那我想先問一個很急的事情喔因為新興奧這個在2028年奧運項目有一些新興運動"},{"start":11749.909,"end":11775.903,"text":"那新興運動現在目前在尤其是在這個現代五項裡面其中一個馬術變成了體能障礙的一個運動項目那現在也是有選手喔現在是已經有選手了喔而且現代五項在全運以現在來說有100位未來如果改成體能障礙的話可能人數會增加因為田徑跟游泳的選手可能都會來練這個項目那我想問我們現在有沒有這樣子的場地了報告委員目前沒有"},{"start":11776.451,"end":11796.325,"text":"目前沒有好 那我想問一下因為我們有一個非常重要的因為2028現在大家都已經開始準備了我們現在沒有我們是不是可以把針對新興運動我們所需要的場地先做一個盤點呢?報委員您剛提到的現代五項的部分它需要一個封閉的大型場域需要能夠游泳能夠有跑步兼射擊"},{"start":11797.285,"end":11820.815,"text":"還要能夠做這個極限這個我們其實是有這樣的場域只是我們現在正在計劃當中一直在進行學長不好意思我想說的是不只這個這只是其中一個新興運動的場域我們是不是可以先做一個盤點因為這樣我們才能夠去備戰嘛因為你建場館也要時間嘛對不對但我想先問一下我們現在這個選手是應該我想應該是可能是臺體跟國體的吧對那請問一下臺體的校長跟國體的校長是不是也可以上來我們來討論一下是"},{"start":11838.18,"end":11851.352,"text":"請教一下,因為現在五項我們現在是有選手但是我們沒有場地我們剛剛部長跟署長也都有說我們現在有在做一些研究那我不曉得說臺體或是國體的校長學校裡面是不是可以有提供這樣子的場地空間呢?"},{"start":11852.778,"end":11877.617,"text":"我們國立體育大學有足夠的場地空間可以來設置這些的運動項目所以針對體能障礙的空間是可以的嗎?可以那臺體呢?我們學校是比較老舊的校區目前恐怕還沒有辦法提供足夠的場地不過我們會配合部裡面的政策來辦理"},{"start":11879.627,"end":11889.635,"text":"那我現在聽起來部長跟署長就是國體的校長是說他們有場地那是不是可以麻煩我們的國體的來提這個計畫部長跟署長來支持呢我想這一個為國家培養這個體育運動人才能夠在世界發光這本來就是我們的使者我們來跟學校來看怎麼樣來合作來讓這個場地能夠足以提供我們人才的培育"},{"start":11909.089,"end":11935.052,"text":"我想跟部長跟署長給你們看一張照片這張照片呢其實是它是不是有點類似體能障礙賽的概念那其實現在在有一些公園在我過去在民間的時候我有都有爭取一些那我希望國體喔未來如果我們蓋了這個園區之後這個體能障礙的設施之後呢是不是也都可以開放讓民間的孩子從小十幾歲的時候國中生需要體能挑戰的時候也可以一起來使用呢"},{"start":11937.725,"end":11951.947,"text":"校長、署長、部長的意見是否可以開放呢?其實我以前擔任過國立體育大學的總務長其實當時學校我們當時也希望能夠做這樣的設施不過對學校同仁來講比較大的困擾在於兒童的安全當他從上面掉下來的時候"},{"start":11953.728,"end":11953.909,"text":"全責劃分"},{"start":11968.095,"end":11986.497,"text":"有關這個如果是以這個競技運動的這個專業來看的話我們當然可以設計屬於比較年輕因為這種體能障礙賽他可以從年輕到競技只是這個是一個比較需要充分溝通跟設計謝謝"},{"start":11987.759,"end":11988.82,"text":"這次今天的新聞就是這個"},{"start":12006.139,"end":12027.286,"text":"全中運的金牌教練他面臨失業因為這個體育所的計畫延續沒有消息那我們現在其實大部分都是用約聘僱的一個計畫來聘請這些教練但是我覺得有一個很重要的問題如果我們希望我們的孩子可以有一個持續的運動跟運動表現的話教練一年一聘的這個問題是不是沒有辦法延續這個訓練呢"},{"start":12028.826,"end":12044.613,"text":"報告委員這兩個層面第一層面以這個議題來講我們現在原額要給各縣市已經快要核定了那我想教練們可能會擔心自己沒有工作但其實我們原額是跟過去一樣所以其實這個教練其實在台中縣理論上縣政府如果他表現不錯的話應該會繼續給他那我們原額是沒有變的"},{"start":12046.314,"end":12065.235,"text":"但是我們還是用醫院聘僱還是是用教育人員目前一樣是用醫院聘僱因為這公務人員的缺是地方必須要開第二件事情是這些的教練其實是地方政府應該要能夠負擔我們中央是來做補助但不是中央的主要的責任但我想因為其實教育如果可以用教育人員來聘僱的話團體的意見是希望說這對我先趕快講完"},{"start":12067.897,"end":12068.558,"text":"教育部主管"},{"start":12102.574,"end":12103.315,"text":"教育部正部長"},{"start":12117.859,"end":12145.008,"text":"今天我們是審查教育部的預算那高等教育當然是我們教育部的重點業務所以今天現場我們來自全臺灣國立大學的校長都也來到現場齊聚在這裡一起要來審查我們的高教預算那部長因為過去我在台北市議會所以我們在審學校預算的時候是國小、國中、高中的校長也會來向我們說明每一所學校的預算"},{"start":12146.109,"end":12158.851,"text":"其中大學過去就只有審查到一所臺北市立大學是不是全臺灣除了市立大學以外其實大部分我們高等教育的經費是不是都有中央的預算來支持的?"},{"start":12160.066,"end":12181.101,"text":"基本上以我們現在的一個法令的規範確實國立大學我們但是因為他也有一些制度上的改變過去是公務預算現在是校務基金所以政府基本上會根據過去學校的一個規模、顏額跟教學研究上必須要的基本需求我們會給予一些補助"},{"start":12181.621,"end":12206.555,"text":"沒有錯不同的預算來源但是主要是中央來支持那高等預算當然需要中央支持我看到臺灣大學有帶頭來呼籲希望我們高教前瞻要持續推動也希望政府要加強對高等教育的投資那我看好幾所學校也都有回應都有響應我今天看我們預算書裡面高等教育這一幕"},{"start":12207.916,"end":12210.179,"text":"今年預算是1,228億,明年會增加60億,也就是會來到1,332億,這個大概佔教育部單位預算七成。"},{"start":12222.978,"end":12246.924,"text":"那要給國立大學的補助理念我們也會比明年的也會比今年度再增加13億總共是521億那像我大學部的母校臺大分配到50億我碩士班的母校清華大學也分配到21億但不只這些因為其他還有計劃性的補助但是今天在這個地方我必須要向大家來說明也必須要開啟討論的是"},{"start":12249.125,"end":12273.364,"text":"因為上個禮拜也就在我們今天這個會議場所國民黨主要去強推了才化法的修法在程旭有疑慮的情況之下由當時就在這個位置我們範圍委員的召委這個位置當時財政委員會的國民黨的召委陳玉珍就把這個版本已經送出委員會甚至現在要派政黨協商根據試算"},{"start":12274.725,"end":12298.922,"text":"現在送出委員會這個財劃法修法的版本會讓中央的整體預算短少了6600億。6600億部長我現在請問你如果中央這個大水庫嘛總預算少了6600億教育部你有沒有辦法如同你現在在媒體所回應大學校長的"},{"start":12300.305,"end":12317.109,"text":"教育部對高等教育的支持預算會逐年來增加你覺得部長以你對你現在業務的了解你認為如果中央的預算短少了6000多億你做得到嗎逐年再去提升高等教育的預算"},{"start":12317.749,"end":12339.747,"text":"這當然我剛才所提的當然基本上就是來自於我們現有的一個制度這個經費上的一些分配,受過在總體的一個預算上因為這個制度這個規範改變了那當然在對高等教育不僅高等教育各級教育上經費他當然有一些一定會面臨一些挑戰"},{"start":12340.447,"end":12358.06,"text":"一定會面臨挑戰甚至它就是一個非常巨大的衝擊我直接就說了總體預算短少6000多億中央可以給教育部的預算絕對會減少也就是你在砍我們總預算你就在砍我們高等教育的預算"},{"start":12359.093,"end":12383.602,"text":"我們必須在這裡要有這樣的認知十年數目百年數人教育經費是何等重要的事我非常的心痛的上個禮拜也就在這個會議場所我想要來發言我來自台北市選民選出來的民意代表必須要向市民報告現在我們的政府財政正在面臨什麼樣的危機但是"},{"start":12384.929,"end":12409.009,"text":"我連發言的機會都沒有為什麼我們現在使用這個麥克風在上個禮拜會議室的時候這個在野黨是把麥克風的電線拉掉我連發言的機會都沒有所以我今天一定要在這裡清楚的表示我身為教委會的委員我非常的支持也要求教育部要來逐年提升對高等教育的預算支持"},{"start":12409.87,"end":12418.39,"text":"因為這是人才的培育而臺灣的學術研究在國際上面有我們的競爭力我們要支持"},{"start":12419.673,"end":12439.874,"text":"但是該我們捍衛預算的時候我們要向國人說明清楚啊不是政治歸政治教育歸教育我正擔心的就是因為我還要爭取預算部長等一下我要跟你爭取預算我就擔心啊如果你總你的預算被砍了砍可能到五成或將近六成我怎麼可能還來增加預算"},{"start":12441.436,"end":12464.827,"text":"這是我們現在共同遇到的難題但是我們會繼續努力捍衛要告訴市民這些預算我們拿來做什麼我們拿來支持教育尤其高等教育千萬不能被政治的惡鬥所犧牲接下來我要請臺灣大學的陳仁章校長部長我也要跟你關心的是我過去當議員的時候就很關心臺大的文化資產"},{"start":12466.408,"end":12494.405,"text":"那我甚至呢是我們審計部有一棟就在我們附近宗教東路昭和樓日本時代的書店我甚至是內棟文資的提報人所以當時是我到市政府文資審議會去說明的那也感謝民間團體協助我們整理資料據我所知今年7月的時候監察院有一份調查報告是關於臺大的文化資產保存那我能不能請校長來回答說校長有沒有看過這份報告"},{"start":12497.125,"end":12519.978,"text":"報告委員我們校長因為現在有請假對他剛剛離開沒辦法因為學校沒關係由你代為由你好那我想要講的是說我們臺大有70棟大樓是被列為歷史建物所以現在是在保護的這一段是幾棟70棟70棟好這是列為文資的包含了古蹟及歷建是嗎是的是"},{"start":12521.584,"end":12549.298,"text":"那監察院的報告裡面給你們的建議是確實臺大的文資數量太為龐大那臺北市本來就是全臺灣古蹟最多的城市不是臺南是在我們臺北市那其中最多數量就在中正區也是我的選區了那臺大又是我母校所以我當然關心那總共呢臺北市537處的文化資產裡面超過十分之一都在臺大"},{"start":12550.836,"end":12574.571,"text":"那我們非常清楚你要去修復一個文資需要花費多少的時間及成本還包括後續的管理所以我目前看到的是我們台大每一年我們編列在修繕文資的經費目前每一年是編列多少能不能說明約是3000萬左右那每一年實際上是嚴重的不足實際上是嚴重不足"},{"start":12578.244,"end":12593.654,"text":"沒有錯我在看齁這個數量的你剛剛講的68處是歷屆文資嘛但是呢我們臺大的日本宿舍還沒有被提報的總共加起來有多少棟超過100棟超過100處啊所以這個我請部長回應齁部長"},{"start":12601.638,"end":12623.425,"text":"我看了監察院這個調查報告我也建議你們團隊有時間這個報告應該把它看完其實監委有給我們建議啦因為這個也不是教育部教育部一個單位我看也沒辦法處理這是一個地方政府都沒辦法負擔的這個責任所以呢監委給我們建議說請教育部"},{"start":12624.025,"end":12637.07,"text":"及文化部,因為我們文化部本來就有修復歷屆文資的計劃補助,不管是私有、民間或是公有的都有在補助。台大過去有一案是文化部補助,但是只有一案,顯然不夠。那內政部呢?"},{"start":12639.471,"end":12666.761,"text":"也有相關的一些法規例如說現在文資可能文資法也有融轉等等所以我希望教育部是可以找文化部跟內政部一起來討論不只是台大其他的大學都有相關的負擔我們不要把這個修房子整修的這個負擔通通讓學校自己來承擔它有很多校務要去經營能不能教育部來協助找文化部、內政部一起來研討在審查預算之前給我一個初步對於法規的盤點"},{"start":12668.563,"end":12689.479,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個具有歷史性的這些文化資產我想以我們目前確實在大學端的這些文化資產的文化部他定有辦法但是我們不逃避責任因為在我過去擔任校長的時候確實我也整修過跟文化部所以我們教育部也可以先來賭注"},{"start":12690.74,"end":12710.071,"text":"教育部這邊我們未來我們來看學校端我們跟地方政府跟文化部還有學校我們共同來合作來保留補助是一定要的但是你還有相關的法律工具所以我看你們要總體有一個計畫出來不要說再發生像曹永和故居我個人是非常心痛"},{"start":12711.391,"end":12728.08,"text":"因為你少了前面的調查研究工作所以你送到文字會的時候當然它的歷史意義還沒有被呈現出來好那就希望我們接下來要跨部會來協助學校接下來我要請臺大醫院的院長吳明賢院長是副校長嗎也請留步"},{"start":12736.786,"end":12758,"text":"好這個部長我要關心的是在我的選區喔臺大醫院有北戶分院就在內江街跟康定路口那首先我要非常感謝因為在疫情的時候我整個區域內能夠收治確診同時又需要洗腎患者的就只有我們北戶分院我非常的感謝你們救了我們很多民眾的"},{"start":12758.24,"end":12760.181,"text":"主題是希望我們要把老年醫療跟長期照護可以合一一條龍,養護結合"},{"start":12774.989,"end":12798.206,"text":"院長我現在要關心的是你計劃核定的沒有因為我每天經過民眾都在忙啊你們就在我們社區旁邊你們現在這個本戶要先送計劃給臺大醫院嘛臺大醫院要送計劃給臺大臺灣大學嘛臺灣大學要送計劃給教育部嘛如果說未來需要國發會公建的補助的話還要再送給國發會嘛你們現在到底進度到哪裡了"},{"start":12799.486,"end":12828.255,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個事情因為臺灣已經早就是超高齡社會那20%超過20%是65歲以上的人口那在北部因為我們注意到萬華區其實超過25%所以我們很早就要建構一個老人醫學跟長照的一個一條龍的整合型特別是為什麼在北部他需要蓋第二道因為我們發現我們北部的護理支架"},{"start":12829.235,"end":12848.962,"text":"等候6個月所以我們已經這個計劃已經送到行政院那整個計劃還沒有完全回來不過其實我們希望國發會可以以前可以補足30%因為據說據說我現在拿到的是說只補23%但是我們醫院這個整個計劃是17.7億醫院本身會出"},{"start":12858.025,"end":12882.301,"text":"總願會贊助9.9億元北戶婚宴本身會籌資2.49億所以希望政府可以給我們補助30%這個計畫的總經費是17.7億那院長你們家分院可以自己籌到幾成我們自己籌7成你們籌7成啊好這個計畫已經送到教育部來了嘛是不是已經從臺南大學已經送到我們教育部了好那請這個請部長"},{"start":12888.286,"end":12903.646,"text":"我希望這個臺大醫院的北戶分醫院對我們社區以及對我們臺北市整體的老年醫院來講非常重要關鍵據我所知過去這個公文光跑就跑了快半年所以我要拜託你們這個案子我們來大力支持可不可以"},{"start":12905.597,"end":12925.886,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們會協助臺大北戶分院來做一些詳細的規劃因為他們在中間的過程當中確實有經費的一些調整跟一些因應誤調的部分有做一些修正那這個部分我們會後續會來協助跟支持好感謝謝謝主席各位請回部長校長請回謝謝吳佩儀委員的質詢我們再來請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":12941.789,"end":12943.11,"text":"五四要委員質詢完之後我們處理臨時提案"},{"start":12953.188,"end":12975.904,"text":"委員好部長好部長這個今天有這麼多的專家學者大學的校長在這邊那當然首先還是要了解一下我國的高校的問題我是外委會的所以時間比較少所以很快速的跟部長討論一下我想從這個數據上來看不管是教育部的數據還是我們審計部的這個決算報告也好臺灣大專校院的平均的每個學生的分攤經費"},{"start":12977.345,"end":12996.69,"text":"國立大學平均大約30萬、私立大學平均大約17萬多、全國平均22萬即便是臺大已經是全臺灣最好的學校他理論是平均每個學生的平均分配經費也只有64萬相比於其他鄰國不管是亞洲各國還是歐洲各國甚至香港、美國等等的我想"},{"start":12997.31,"end":13004.892,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":13020.256,"end":13047.648,"text":"那到底這問題出在哪裡?還有一個問題是說這個經費少之外經費跟別國比起來相對比較少之外還有教學現場很多老師會有一個問題是他除了教學之外他的研究還有很多競爭型計畫他必須花很多心思在競爭期在教育部推出的各種短期計畫裡面這件事我想也影響了學生的受教學所以問一下部長新上任之後到目前這個問題有沒有辦法解決或未來有什麼樣的想法?部長"},{"start":13048.984,"end":13077.483,"text":"謝謝委員關心高等教育的教育品質包括它的資源那其實我我想委員也非常清楚臺灣的高等教育在過去這一個的經費我們當然有一套的一個公務預算上的一個計算方式那隨著學校後來的一個發展譬如說像臺城青膠政大這些都有非常好的品牌他們在產業企業民間的一個支持捐款來自於"},{"start":13078.323,"end":13086.667,"text":"學生、校友的一些亮麗的表現我想他們的資源相對是豐富的但是如果我們再看這樣一個經費上來看我們考慮到這個這個幣值在當地的消費指數來看其實我們會看到"},{"start":13094.491,"end":13097.612,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機"},{"start":13115.299,"end":13138.797,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":13139.037,"end":13164.354,"text":"進入到這一個世界的百大理念大學我要問的是說教育部的經費那經費你們未來會提高呢還是說變成像比如說台積、張誠這些學校他們去靠部門的方式以今年我們明年的意義是我們就比今年多了59億那這59億裡面包含高教深耕這個多了20億"},{"start":13165.495,"end":13182.903,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學校院校務基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功"},{"start":13184.184,"end":13184.564,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13205.857,"end":13217.45,"text":"那他等於他的研究的這個計畫也好或他在教學的品質也好可能有所下降我不知道說這件事情教育部在政策上有沒有需要調整還是你們要繼續延續目前的這個對大學的補助計畫的方式"},{"start":13217.967,"end":13218.107,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":13243.68,"end":13257.592,"text":"具體建議是說希望我們第一線的教授不要花這麼多時間在爭取所謂競爭型計畫而是教育部能夠給他們比較穩定的常態型的補助常態型的預算有沒有可能這樣做"},{"start":13258.312,"end":13286.558,"text":"跟委員報告因為以大學教授來講他個人的計畫基本上是在國科會但是以教育部來講我們比較少個人我們大概都是從學校學校裡邊爭取到的經費他回到學校裡邊怎麼樣落實這一個他們對這個研究計畫的一些想像然後怎麼樣能夠扎實的去執行我想這我們利用這個機會還是要拜託我們大學校長我們一起來努力好 部長謝謝"},{"start":13289.387,"end":13290.288,"text":"部長、司長請回謝謝黃建豪委員的質詢再來我們請吳思瑤委員質詢"},{"start":13304.373,"end":13305.335,"text":"委員好"},{"start":13325.309,"end":13351.006,"text":"我今天是要來搶救教育預算的當然我想今天也有一些委員提到財政收支劃分法如果粗糙的被修過了那麼未來就是受中央肥地方那教育預算會成為重災戶才化法如果被二修了教育預算成為重災戶我一定要"},{"start":13351.866,"end":13378.6,"text":"透過直播把這個訴求讓全臺灣關心教育的朋友一起來關注今天有很多在野黨的委員在場一手討預算要跟部長爭取預算但是一手卻忘了他們正在從中央把珍貴的教育預算給挖走了下一頁才化法如果"},{"start":13380.158,"end":13388.322,"text":"帶走了6612億那麼中央就剩下可用的財源是1157億這幾天國人都看到了下一頁"},{"start":13394.113,"end":13415.144,"text":"我過去長期在教育文化領域我就以高教跟國教我這幾天辦公室都在統計喔如果才化法6612億從中央的可用財源來挪移了那麼高教的青年預算可用的財源會大失血"},{"start":13416.423,"end":13445.409,"text":"初估至少影響1,292.7億這個數字早算到半枚了而且這是吳思堯辦公室自己算的我請高教司長提供給我一個更完整的資訊譬如說補助國立大專校院校務基金及附屬醫院教學委管工程設備540億可能就沒有辦法再支應了"},{"start":13446.169,"end":13472.058,"text":"又譬如說大家現在都享受到政府的福利減免大專學生的學雜費而且補助私校健全發展395億也會斷吹了又包括高教生耕我剛剛聽到國民黨的委員要爭取還請部長堵上烏紗帽一定要爭取高教前瞻的經費那麼請在野黨的委員懸崖勒馬"},{"start":13475.879,"end":13498.685,"text":"如果才化法修惡、惡修了高教生耕計劃第二期200.5億就不見了更不要說提升高教人才斷層提升教研人員的待遇計劃將近50億所以總體來講高教青年可用的預算"},{"start":13499.585,"end":13514.693,"text":"就會可能被搬走了1292.7億現在的計劃沒有辦法永續執行這是高教但是我請高教師給我一個更完整的統計OK嗎好下一頁"},{"start":13516.031,"end":13531.9,"text":"國教的部分我謝謝彭署長因為這兩天剛好跟他有另外的會議我們剛好一起討論到如果才化法修正了未來影響中央可用裁員在國教的部分至少會影響938.2億"},{"start":13536.212,"end":13560.28,"text":"部長您聽好喔!包括小子化2到6歲的幼兒照顧與教護688.8億可能就斷吹了!又包括現在教育文化委員會包括過去我們一直努力在推的學生輔導法現在要即將好不容易朝野同意通過協商很快可以在院會二三讀"},{"start":13562.14,"end":13574.647,"text":"當朝也都在爭取學生輔導法要擴建我們地方政府協助他們來增設專輔教師、輔資中心還有專輔人員的人事費教育部編了32.6億"},{"start":13577.629,"end":13606.038,"text":"如果修法大家都說要修學生輔導法可是另外一邊才化法又被修惡了那麼這一筆32.6億要協助地方專輔教師的經費就沒有了所以在國教的部分受影響跟衝擊的會有938.2億彭處長我的整理應當是正確的吧是的是好下一頁因為內容很多我沒有辦法來細項講但我必須凸顯"},{"start":13607.884,"end":13636.766,"text":"教育是重災戶本期長期以來協助投入爭取的青年租金補貼363億包括內政部335億是內政部來擴大這些社會青年但是在教育部門我們上會期努力爭取今年度上路的大專校院的校內住宿補貼28億就受影響了在下一頁我很快的收束新宿舍運動在場所有的校長大家久過來"},{"start":13638.007,"end":13662.119,"text":"新宿舍運動第一期50億第二期33億如果財源被搬走了恐怕也沒有辦法永續請大家還沒爭取的趕快來爭取現在政府編列的是第一期50億跟第二期的33億謹慎的可能未來會斷垂下一頁很快的跟大家報告國立大學"},{"start":13663.82,"end":13687.312,"text":"參與率有31校通過率有67.7沒有申請的臺北體育運動大學許校長請加油臺東大學鄭校長請加油臺北教育大學程校長請加油包括暫停中的有彰化師範臺北大學跟體育大學如果學校遇見問題教育部專案來協助在下一頁"},{"start":13688.592,"end":13699.2,"text":"繼職的部分更要教育部來全力幫忙目前沒有申請的臺灣科技大學嚴校長請加油湖北科技大學張校長你們撤案了請加油澎湖科技大學黃校長臺北商業大學任校長臺東專科學校王校長"},{"start":13707.466,"end":13734.311,"text":"台南護理專科學校黃校長請加油然後臺北科技大學我們已經協調好了王校長我們終於可以在地案了換言之如果各校我相信大家想推遇到困難請教育部專案來協助好我的時間到了我今天提的資料提的訊息請大家一起搶救珍貴的教育預算新宿舍運動83億未來可能沒有了大家趕快來爭取好"},{"start":13736.407,"end":13736.427,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13749.522,"end":13767.871,"text":"有鑒於桃園市因人口快速成長導致醫療及教育資源不均多所國立大學包括清華大學、中央大學、陽明教育、政治大學、北科技大學、台灣海洋大學等校108年起及陸續規劃於桃園市設立醫院醫療園區或教育中心分校等"},{"start":13768.711,"end":13786.327,"text":"並和原市政府簽訂合作意向書MU,民眾應且期盼。原市政府已配合變更度式計劃及無償提供土地,為期金5年有餘,除其成人檔更未有具體進度,甚至透過合作意向書期限。"},{"start":13787.628,"end":13814.634,"text":"還傳出計劃申辯嚴重傷害桃園市民情感,尤其青華大學、中央大學及陽明交道原計劃與桃園設置醫院及醫療園區既已取得移撥土地,若無法以原計劃完成,則應與桃園市政府合作設置市立醫院為依。也要求上述六間國立大學一個月內具體回覆前階計劃之最終定案,及預定辦理其成。"},{"start":13815.254,"end":13834.136,"text":"提案人外美齡、人屬人格、無菌、羅庭瑞、宣洋病因為這個臨時提案教育部這邊已經同意,部長要表達什麼嗎?請我們這六所學校校長表達一下有沒有其他是不是能夠"},{"start":13835.557,"end":13856.313,"text":"就是清大、中央大、陽明交大、政治大學、臺北科技大學、臺灣海洋大學對不起主席我可以再說明嗎?這樣子的話可能他們的東西上來會更精準一點好不好?那我想跟這個部長還有我們的上述國立大學這六所大學喔那剛剛因為我在這個質詢的時候也講得很清楚喔"},{"start":13857.033,"end":13871.34,"text":"但是這中間還有很多的細節跟問題今天因為時間關係沒有辦法講述完成但是我相信這六所國立大學都知道這裡面有一些問題在所以我是希望這個月具體回覆的內容"},{"start":13872.32,"end":13885.931,"text":"我覺得不可以太空泛那要能夠具體為什麼?因為這個具體有助於這六所學校能夠確立在我們桃園市MOU的落實執行所以這也是給雙方彼此一個機會你們趕快去檢視然後把這個計畫寫出來"},{"start":13889.674,"end":13904.788,"text":"也便於與桃園市政府來做一個合作,讓教育委員會委員能夠清楚知道。所以這一個月內,把MOU現在沒有辦法達成原來共識的地方,要能夠詳述清楚,讓一個月之內把它提出來。以上,謝謝。請問剛剛這六所學校的校長有沒有什麼意見要表達的?"},{"start":13913.795,"end":13914.276,"text":"教育部保證"},{"start":13922.875,"end":13935.066,"text":"可以嗎?我看我們六所學校校長都點頭,所以我們就配合辦理。謝謝委員。好,那就照案通過。各提案如果有委員補簽,請議事員詳細登載在議事錄,可以到前面補簽。接著我們就繼續進行質詢。我們請林德福委員質詢。"},{"start":13955.225,"end":13955.886,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13980.905,"end":13995.897,"text":"部長才昨天報告的那年年超徵結果他把超徵的錢拿去哪裡給台電錯誤的政策比貪污100倍可怕所以說我們現在回歸正道這是25年從來沒有修過的"},{"start":13999.019,"end":14025.038,"text":"因為才化法本來就要修而且中央現在拿多少72%地方28%現在分配到64很公平很客觀而且教育的預算都有編列不要用今天各大校長來用這樣來拗這樣來騙我跟大家報告我們希望整個國家就是均衡的發展"},{"start":14025.658,"end":14051.568,"text":"你各縣市都一樣這些年來因為我是資深的委員他把很多錢給台南給高雄去治水你看高雄淹水淹得多嚴重我跟大家報告啦問題一羅光啦我們希望就是各地方能夠均衡的發展所以說我們今天一定要講話不能讓你說用今天所有校長都來然後來硬拗來騙這些校長"},{"start":14053.829,"end":14069.614,"text":"而且你每一年的教育預算都有編列今年超徵4千億這幾年加起來超徵最少有兩兆但是他補助台電補助多少你們去給他查看看一個錯誤政策比貪污100倍可怕來 鄭部長你請上來好 鄭部長請"},{"start":14076.755,"end":14093.628,"text":"美國職業棒球大聯盟知名球星大谷祥平50轟50道紀錄第50號全壘打球昨天在台北101景觀台夢想高飛特展展出"},{"start":14095.936,"end":14120.464,"text":"美國洛杉磯奧運確定要將棒球重納入這個比賽的項目為了促進臺灣的棒球發展本期是希望說教育部提供機會給國內輕棒、少棒的學生前往101臺北101參觀這獨一無二、生計意義的棒球請問部長你的看法"},{"start":14122.403,"end":14149.42,"text":"呃...我想如果我們中小學生能夠有機會親臨現場對他來講他一定會有一些鼓舞鼓舞的輕棒少棒優先因為對他們來講他們認為說我今天有機會去參觀未來就是追求這樣的一個目標部長你的看法咧我不同意委員剛才所提的確實他是一個不錯的一個想法所以說我希望部長你能夠"},{"start":14151.092,"end":14164.237,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院"},{"start":14180.163,"end":14188.369,"text":"教育部主管114年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管"},{"start":14201.943,"end":14221.532,"text":"就是增加十幾億本期不希望說上漲的電價去排擠整個教育教學的資源所以說影響學生的受教權利學校用電資需要經費教育部要多以協助也不要讓這些校長老師特別煩惱"},{"start":14223.452,"end":14237.136,"text":"謝謝委員關心怎麼讓大學裡邊的學術能量教學的品質能夠確保我們也跟委員報告我們114年明年在電惠的一個補助我們也編列了20億多來補助我們這個公私立大學的一個電價的一個差額"},{"start":14243.557,"end":14268.715,"text":"我是希望說這個一定要來支援他們那另外有一個青年百億海外圓夢基金計畫那來鼓勵各領域的青年到世界各地去學習交流不過立法院預算中心提醒喔預算中心提醒這個計畫還沒有核定相關補助的對象、資格、條件以及補助的方式能沒有明確"},{"start":14270.196,"end":14292.575,"text":"而來妥善規劃以及審查那本席是希望說一旦計劃要公布要讓青年學子有足夠的時間來準備資料報名的時間不可太短因為你太短會讓人聯想是不是因人設事或消息提早走漏讀後有特定的對象部長你的看法勒"},{"start":14294.416,"end":14321.415,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個是我們要做的一個方式我們希望當這個細節這個整個大方向都有了然後確定以後一定會公佈在網頁上然後每年也讓希望有更多的年輕人能夠勇於追夢要提早公佈直接讓他們準備我們明年基本上我們是這樣的一個因為我認為這個很重要預算通過以後我們就會有一些具體的做法然後在這個網頁上公佈"},{"start":14322.916,"end":14341.746,"text":"最後一個議題行政院卓院長說臺灣對採用新核能科技的態度非常的開放本期是希望政府有必要持續投入這個核電的研究國內如果不繼續發展核電核電人才恐怕會有"},{"start":14343.046,"end":14365.478,"text":"這個極大的斷層那教育部114年預算案國際及兩岸教育交流培養宏觀視野國際人才編列了14億8千多萬本期是希望該計畫也能補助青年學子去國外學習小型模組化反應爐就是SMR"},{"start":14366.218,"end":14387.547,"text":"的研究以培養優秀高階人才、厚植國家的實力我請問部長你是不是願意支持這些年輕人到國外去學習最新的這個核能技術我想這一個對臺灣的人才培育我們絕對都會全力來支持的我希望啊尤其在核能這個區塊好不好"},{"start":14388.948,"end":14407.32,"text":"因為你要培養何人的人才,未來我們才能夠奠定那個基礎我想在能源上的一些人才的培育,這也是臺灣的一個重點好,我不再用人家時間,謝謝謝謝部長請回,謝謝林德福委員的質詢,再我們請王育民委員質詢"},{"start":14414.55,"end":14414.771,"text":"主席"},{"start":14427.98,"end":14445.794,"text":"部長你師專畢業之後第一所任教的國小是不是嘉義縣主席的光華國小是然後10月8號你還回娘家嗎是那本席認為你應該對於所謂的城鄉差距的議題應該很有感吧"},{"start":14446.73,"end":14472.295,"text":"當然你當時到這個光華國小我看報導你是要走路走兩個多小時才會到你教的學校嗎在那個年代走大馬路要4小時是齁好那本席今天就要救救你有關於縮短城鄉差距的問題特別是像嘉義縣這樣的地方因為你在那邊任教過所以我想你感受非常的深刻"},{"start":14473.195,"end":14494.329,"text":"前陣子嘉義中埔發生大地震一個地震就有14所學校出現了震災的災損但是我們看到像嘉義縣政府的教育發展基金今年所編列的關於老舊校舍還有耐震能力補強的經費整個加起來也才不過600萬"},{"start":14499.252,"end":14520.569,"text":"特別是耐震補強根本就是零沒有錢啊因為嘉義縣財政很困難它是第五級啊它的分級是第五級所以我要問部長的是我認為縮短城鄉差距是非常重要一件事情但今天在你的未來市政重點沒有列為你最大的重點項目那這個部分"},{"start":14521.169,"end":14521.209,"text":"議員主席議員"},{"start":14539.601,"end":14557.254,"text":"這個有安全考慮上的這些校舍我們跟行政院爭取希望能夠有未來有這一個4年有350億的這樣的一個經費來做改善你現在爭取到了嗎行政院卓院長有沒有允諾你了"},{"start":14558.427,"end":14575.061,"text":"我們現在在已經報到行政院去了已經報到行政院我希望這一個部分這個鄭部長你要多爭取而且特別是今天我要幫這個嘉義縣多講話因為他的財政真的很困難那你不能讓他是惡性循環"},{"start":14575.842,"end":14601.444,"text":"就是說財政越困難的縣市你的教育資源投入越少然後他的這個出生率就越低現在他有非常多的小學已經面臨要關閉的命運你任教過的光華國小也從這個100多人現在也只剩下20幾人可能未來他說不定就不存在了所以這樣的一個現象我認為一定要去改善而這個改善的力量就來自中央去挹注地方這個部長你可以允諾嗎"},{"start":14603.245,"end":14615.23,"text":"謝謝委員關心確實這是我想是大家都共同認可的一個價值我們怎麼樣縮短這一個成鄉的一個差距所以我們在新的一年裡面我們總共每年編了這一個40億"},{"start":14617.671,"end":14628.685,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機"},{"start":14637.355,"end":14647.598,"text":"我們全力來推動我們希望可以改善這些財政比較弱勢的現勢讓這些孩子不要一開始就輸在起跑點那接下來的問題是有關於食安的問題這個最近也傳出來這個學校的營養午餐這個有出現這個異物這樣的一個情況那這個食藥署的統計就是學校的這個食物中毒食品安全中毒場所是列在前三名"},{"start":14664.463,"end":14685.77,"text":"那有關於食安的問題我覺得是非常的重要也應該要改善那本席其實有提出一個學校公參法那之前其實教育部也說要來推動但是到目前為止都沒有看到這個修法的進度喔這個部長在你任內你這個學校公參法強化校園食安是您優先的重點嗎"},{"start":14686.857,"end":14708.724,"text":"我想讓學童能夠有一個更健康營養的一個午餐的一個供應我想這都是大家共同認可的一個價值那至於怎麼樣供餐我想這個會後我來跟這一個是不是詳細的我請這一個彭署長這一個來補充說明來署長你說你們現在的進度到哪裡有沒有人推動"},{"start":14709.504,"end":14727.637,"text":"我們就三個議題跟地方政府還有相關的團體來尋求共識第一個是偏鄉的公餐第二個是人事相關的經費第三個是公餐的相關的費用單餐的費用等等的一些參數、公示那這些在謀求共識中一直會跟行政院保持聯繫跟委員補充 謝謝"},{"start":14728.317,"end":14734.899,"text":"那你的進度呢?就是說這三項可能還沒達到…這三項的共識現在的確還在尋求…你有沒有一個期程?我想要的是一個期程,你說你預計什麼時候…我們兩週內給委員報告,謝謝好,那希望這個署長你盡快給本席這邊你們的一個相關進度的報告因為我想這個學校的營養午餐涉及到全國這麼多學童他們的這個食安的問題"},{"start":14754.144,"end":14774.492,"text":"那我希望透過一個更嚴謹的立法我們可以確保也讓家長安心他的孩子在學校裡面所吃到的營養午餐都是安全的沒有疑慮的好不好好那我們一起來努力謝謝謝謝委員好部長署長請回謝謝王育民委員的質詢那再來是范玉委員質詢陳秀寶委員代主席謝謝"},{"start":14789.433,"end":14806.679,"text":"請范芸召委質詢好,謝謝應該不用請部長了那我想今天是非常的難得我們一年只有一次是所有的大學校長都來那今天我想要針對大學法"},{"start":14807.279,"end":14827.992,"text":"大學治理20年沒有大修跟校長交流溝通所以待會會有請校長舉下手所以大家可以繼續吃飯沒關係為什麼我今天想要質詢這個主題主要是上一屆我們教育文化委員會那如果校長有印象的話曾經就是三黨"},{"start":14828.812,"end":14828.972,"text":"教育部所屬機"},{"start":14844.994,"end":14871.636,"text":"公開表達說因為整個大學法宣法的過程好像都沒有機會表達意見所以後來就是這個版本就是雖然得到三黨共識所以就沒有進入二三讀那我想其實我覺得這段時間以來教育部我們也跟教育部講說要跟大學校長多溝通教育部也辦了非常多的座談會那我們昨天教育委員也辦了一個公聽會那請到非常多的校長還有"},{"start":14872.637,"end":14900.528,"text":"公立大學校長協會代表、私立大學校長協會代表所以我想今天也藉這個機會能夠跟校長一起溝通首先因為我自己是出身高教在大學教書超過10年我過去學生時代也參與學生自治所以一直都特別關注大學跟高教治理的問題上個禮拜我特別跟學生團體公佈我的辦公室跟"},{"start":14901.388,"end":14904.431,"text":"全國學生自治會針對學生會的調查今天想針對其中幾個問題也問請教大學校長的意見"},{"start":14922.909,"end":14924.431,"text":"貴校的校務會議記錄會後有無公開上網有公開上網的校長可以舉手嗎?"},{"start":14948.03,"end":14950.011,"text":"請問校長,貴校有沒有明定保障師生索取校務資訊的辦法或機制?您知道有的請舉手"},{"start":14966.903,"end":14968.124,"text":"第三貴校的校務會議學生代表是否有超過10%?第四項"},{"start":14989.644,"end":14993.885,"text":"貴校是否有幫學生會代收會費?貴校校務會下有無設監督財務委員會"},{"start":15011.649,"end":15020.295,"text":"校務會議選出委員會是監督才有的有的話不錯有大概4、5位校長6位校長請舉手謝謝你們我針對這五個問題以下回應為什麼要問這五個問題因為這都是師生很關心的問題第一個"},{"start":15031.382,"end":15045.989,"text":"第二、審查全國30個學生會,有八成學生表示所取校務資訊曾經遇到困難,也有很多學校沒有定期公開校務會議記錄。"},{"start":15054.833,"end":15073.861,"text":"雖然這個大學法已經很老舊可是它現行的39條就規定大學對校務資訊除依法應與保密者外以主動公開為原則並得應人民申請提供之然後大學法施行細則這個教育部要管控的還有談到說"},{"start":15075.842,"end":15101.169,"text":"一、39條各校應訂定校務資訊公開之事項方式及人民申請提供之程序如果我們這個人民連學校的師生都沒有這個程序的話其他的人民就更沒有了所以剛剛很肯定有舉手的就是貴校您知道貴校有公開申請的這個程序的話我覺得非常好那也提醒校長為什麼我剛剛問這一題也肯定剛剛有舉手的學校"},{"start":15105.01,"end":15130.708,"text":"這是關於校務資訊目前非常高的學生會也有很多的老師表達就是資訊非常的不公開可是我們大學法跟施行細則中其實都有明定以公開而且是主動公開為原則第二個學生參與的部分我們在調查的就是其實大家回來看大學法15條學生代表應經選舉產生"},{"start":15133.65,"end":15157.804,"text":"人數不得少於全體會議的十分之一所以也要提醒大家十分之一其實是樓地板那剛剛有舉手的超過十分之一的我非常的肯定譬如說我昨天公聽會也聽到中山大學李志朋校長分享他們的比例是10.8也超過這個底線那東海大學也跟我們分享他們學生比例已經達到九分之一"},{"start":15158.524,"end":15183.944,"text":"我覺得因為大學法設定的十分之一是底線所以各校主動就是增加的我覺得都是好事那當然就是我們昨天的高校公聽會也有校長表達而且這是我們經常聽到的就是大學學生自治參與學生關心校務的各校程度不一那甚至會有學生自治組織留會選不出人的這個狀況"},{"start":15185.425,"end":15204.032,"text":"那為什麼學生不願意參與就是校會跟學校的公共事務或者是甚至學生自治組織我覺得有很多的原因那昨天有人說可能是覺得參與也沒有什麼用處那有很多那其中有一個原因那我個人認為"},{"start":15205.052,"end":15233.247,"text":"是因為學生會的財務自主性不足我們如果以英國的學生會學校甚至把活動中心交給學生來營運甚至也把課外活動的經費是學生會來處理可是相比之下我們看一下臺灣的學生會剛剛其實有蠻多人沒有舉手是根據教育部的調查肯定教育部持續做這個全國大專校院學生會的概況調查"},{"start":15235.029,"end":15243.318,"text":"這調查你可以看到不分公司力有21%的學校完全不願意幫學生會代收會費然後有16.1%的僅願意協助代收新生的會費"},{"start":15252.409,"end":15260.192,"text":"學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權"},{"start":15277.497,"end":15294.488,"text":"有應要的部分所以我想這個校長也可以多看一下這方面的資訊我們如果不願意協助學生然後又說他們不參與然後不願意提高學生參與的權益保障的話我想會是一個惡性循環不是一件好事"},{"start":15296.032,"end":15297.774,"text":"學生會30所學生會調查有9成學生會認為校務會議問責及監督功能有待改進"},{"start":15315.313,"end":15331.544,"text":"學生會認為教會問責跟監督功能有待改進,而且是近九成有半數人認為學校的財務資訊不夠公開透明我還是要肯定一些學校,譬如說政治大學"},{"start":15332.705,"end":15360.758,"text":"校務會議就下設財務監督委員會讓校務會議可以直接監督校方的財務使用但我想就是這校務會議大家覺得沒有辦法扮演監督的功能也是讓我們教育文化的委員經常收到學生的陳情老師的陳情而且都是代表性的組織不管是學校的工會或者是學校的學生會因為他們覺得既有的管道其實都非常的不暢通"},{"start":15362.178,"end":15385.724,"text":"以上就是為什麼我們上一屆會推動大學法改革因為時間的緣故我也想提醒校長們我一定會幫大家爭取高教的經費今天非常多人講我們要進入百大、五百大可是我們的經費跟日本、新加坡等比起來一個學生得到的經費太少了私立大學更是窘礦"},{"start":15386.884,"end":15409.559,"text":"我一定會幫大家爭取更多的教育經費因為我覺得教育人才就是我們未來的國力是非常的重要因為是國家投資在我們下一代上面的可是一個好大學一定要保障重視利害關係人的參與如果我們看國際頂尖大學也不用到頂尖歐盟的平均的大學的校務"},{"start":15410.439,"end":15423.813,"text":"會議學生的比例是四分之一上一屆我們通過的五分之一其實已經低於歐盟的平均了當然我同意大家講的我們要漸進改革"},{"start":15425.515,"end":15450.467,"text":"所以我今天就是呼籲校長們一起參與這個討論我相信校長的觀點非常的重要那校長的意見教育部也正在詢問中那我非常的對我們現任部長有很高的期待因為他很難得是高校出身而且擔任過大學校長那希望在他任內我們能夠一起完成這個重要的大學治理結構20年沒有好好處理的一個改變"},{"start":15454.209,"end":15463.676,"text":"謝謝校長們吃便當還聽我講話感謝大家我們一起加油謝謝謝謝范芸昭委質詢我們下一位請陳昭之委員質詢謝謝秀寶委員代主持"},{"start":15481.184,"end":15483.687,"text":"臺大醫院、成大醫院"},{"start":15506.169,"end":15522.628,"text":"這張圖表讓你了解這兩家院近5年來的財務狀況,可以看到都是有剩餘的大概在21跟30億之間我想這代表他們應該基本上是有能力來好好照顧員工,部長同意嗎?"},{"start":15528.485,"end":15544.271,"text":"陳大醫院過去被披露太多期了壓榨護理師的事件強迫他們加班拒絕加班的護理師都會被調職當他們向勞工局反應的時候卻變成黑名單部長您聽過這件事嗎?"},{"start":15547.237,"end":15549.599,"text":"雖然衛福部努力嘗試解決護理師的困境"},{"start":15564.249,"end":15584.737,"text":"陳大醫院的主管機關畢竟還是教育部所以請部長要多關心你們在主責機關當中非常辛苦的護理師們最近我又收到陳大護理師的澄清跟反應請部長可以看左邊這個圖當他們要上醫院系統填報加班費的時候系統會顯示"},{"start":15586.878,"end":15602.201,"text":"加班費已經超過單位額度金額的為理由直接鎖住直接封鎖部長這個連申請加班都沒有辦法您覺得這樣合法合理嗎這是成功大學呀國立成功大學呀"},{"start":15603.032,"end":15603.152,"text":"主席"},{"start":15619.821,"end":15621.622,"text":"陳教授,您覺得加班20分鐘算不算加班?"},{"start":15637.348,"end":15654.405,"text":"我舉個例子只要這個我們的這個員工裡邊所有的因為工作上的所需那當然是加班那您旗下有三家醫院臺大、成大跟陽交大他過去都有設到這個最小加班申請單位的其實是不合理的規定"},{"start":15655.687,"end":15666.9,"text":"公職人要買一小時勞基法要買30分鐘才能有加班費也就是說假設一個公職他今天工作了加班了50分鐘他是沒有加班費的要做功德部長您覺得這樣合理嗎我們從明年跟我們報告我們從明年開始原來的30分鐘他現在會變成以分鐘來計時"},{"start":15674.329,"end":15676.07,"text":"台大成大114年的預算書都沒有把這項人事成本的增長列進去以成大為例,上年度的加班費是編了2.15億"},{"start":15696.002,"end":15699.504,"text":"明年編的2.17億這屆200萬多了200萬那這200萬可能還是考量明年公務員要調薪的影響吧部長您覺得這個數字是夠的嗎"},{"start":15708.928,"end":15730.835,"text":"這個醫院實際的運作,確實這個經費我是比較申書的,是不是能夠請院長來補充說明一下應該是不夠的啦,兩百萬報告委員,我們這個加班費因為是個動態,譬如說今年有超過七天的颱風下那麼發生這個加班的事實的時候,我們都會追加,所以到最後決算的時候都會補回來,請委員放心"},{"start":15732.396,"end":15744.824,"text":"9月15日公會提出要去追捕過往5年,但是臺大管理基金說西回言議,部長西回言議這四個字您可不可以跟我們解釋一下是什麼叫西回言議"},{"start":15750.867,"end":15780.087,"text":"護長我再請你看這個是我的母校這張圖我在臺南醫院服務10年臺南醫院有位教授每隔一段時間都給我因為他這個圖就是這樣急診人數因為滿床溢出溢到正門的大廳這個到了晚上更嚴重這是白天照的我們大家知道很多醫學中心在國人心目中是神醫院可是這個很奇怪這個現象很奇怪在醫院評鑑的時候他又會神奇的消失這些狀況因為他是不合格的"},{"start":15780.747,"end":15791.613,"text":"審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學校院校務基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":15793.413,"end":15816.612,"text":"我想這個台大的品牌就是大家都希望去的所以這個醫療的一個服務品質我想台大他一定會內部會看到這些應該會去調整我今天其實就是讓部長知道您所屬轄下的也許過去你沒有特別關注到你的大學裡面的附設醫院那這個部分需要我就呈現給院長因為問題很多請部長多多關心謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":15823.665,"end":15824.546,"text":"部長等請回。"},{"start":15852.076,"end":15879.01,"text":"委員好好謝謝部長那當然首先也感謝我們張廖次長在10月28號跟我們召委有到本席的沿海行政區幾個學校來考察那當然像針對像我們新屋頭州國小它是民國40年建校現在校齡也70幾年那這個地方因為新住民都偏多它弱勢族群大概有占兩成那像觀音國中它校齡也"},{"start":15879.65,"end":15887.756,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管124年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機"},{"start":15908.609,"end":15910.11,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":15932.918,"end":15939.622,"text":"議員提出公益性及必要性的評估報告還沒有審核通過所以他整個簽效的期程就延宕可是現在"},{"start":15949.548,"end":15951.21,"text":"大學附設醫院作業基金、國立大學附設醫院所屬機"},{"start":15967.489,"end":15975.791,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功"},{"start":15996.503,"end":16025.271,"text":"現在委員關心曹英國小他這個學生跟老師教學的一些品質那包括人口的一個增加那我想會後我們請國教署來跟這個會同地方我們來瞭解一下因為他確實是一個比較還是相對年輕的學校教理沒那麼多那要遷校這個我們還是也先來瞭解地方地方教育基礎"},{"start":16026.391,"end":16034.773,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學校院校務基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":16054.958,"end":16069.535,"text":"按比例專案來補助一下再請部長多幫忙那還請教一下我們國教署彭署長我們行政院他都會根據中央對直轄市及縣市政府"},{"start":16070.509,"end":16070.949,"text":"一般性補助"},{"start":16085.679,"end":16111.258,"text":"大概像我們每年二、三月教育局都會送一些案子到國教署針對我們老舊校舍新建建設的工程也一般都是用這個一般性補助款來支應對不對有四項指定其中一項是這一項那這一部分一般性補助款這些應該也算是我們立法的法定支出項目吧"},{"start":16113.129,"end":16136.381,"text":"那所以這些立法的法定支出項目其實正常來講它跟總預算卡關應該沒有關係應該都可以來支應對不對這可能會後再跟委員再細細的說明一下因為它畢竟是政府中央政府對地方的補助對因為我們今天提出的部分就是希望說有時候像一些我們"},{"start":16137.773,"end":16137.973,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":16154.628,"end":16179.361,"text":"情況我希望能夠做一些澄清不要讓一些訊息沒有辦法去釐清讓我們的教育被政治操作希望部長、次長能夠重視一下有些訊息能夠適度的來釐清我們教育應該是不需要被政治來操作的好不好有一些對地方政府的補助會後再跟委員做報告好那今天提出也希望部長、次長能夠來重視這些問題好謝謝"},{"start":16184.02,"end":16190.445,"text":"部長、次長、署長請回謝謝圖全基委員的質詢我們現在請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席,楊瓊英發言,邀請部長請部長"},{"start":16209.093,"end":16227.753,"text":"委員好部長我們繼續來討論私校的議題我們總共有103所的這個私校那如果以每年我們現在大概17萬的這個新生17萬7左右那約有八成的學生他可能會選擇就12萬人會選擇在公立學校裡頭"},{"start":16232.057,"end":16234.899,"text":"五、六萬人左右只能讓50所私校正常運轉到2028年至少有40所學校瀕臨結束或轉型"},{"start":16249.231,"end":16255.316,"text":"明年度預算案有關學校退場基金3.5億元項目主要在設備及投資來輔導私立、高中、中等學校以上的退場機制明年度預算與今年度預算增幅約82.08億元"},{"start":16276.834,"end":16297.619,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":16297.979,"end":16306.229,"text":"我們要提出怎麼樣的一個方案去應對剛剛本席所提出的面向呢?謝謝委員關心我們高等教育的永續發展"},{"start":16312.369,"end":16327.875,"text":"那我想我進來以後我也跟我們私立這個大學校院也做這樣一個分享我們現在人口少數化它是一個現象事實那每一年現在大概以現在來講大概就是17、8萬、15、6萬族裔那我們我其實跟我們這些"},{"start":16333.357,"end":16349.538,"text":"大學校院的校長們做這樣一個分享我們不要只看每一年不管你18萬的大學新生還是15萬其實就大學高等教育的一個想像你要不要再從一個更"},{"start":16350.399,"end":16359.842,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管484年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機"},{"start":16375.666,"end":16391.372,"text":"我們只要確保教育品質我們當然希望它是永續發展我們也有相對的一些法令上的一個雙綁也希望能夠大學能夠勇於在這個在許多這個教育的一個發展學校治理能夠建立特色"},{"start":16392.632,"end":16405.566,"text":"大學之後之前還有私立高中的議案所以這個退場機制本來是希望私立高中的部分不及大學的一個公開透明所以這一點也請精進我想對整個教育的體系會有幫助你認同吧是"},{"start":16410.871,"end":16413.052,"text":"高校生根計劃到目前為止,國科、國發會認為必須要有36,994人的研討到目前為止,第二期編列204億"},{"start":16431.8,"end":16431.9,"text":"請教部長"},{"start":16447.104,"end":16471.604,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們高等教育在人才培育跟產業的一個連結甚至這個學用減少那個落差確實我們在這一個這些年來我們在師處裡邊各師處裡邊在對高等教育人才培育我們不僅從產業他提他的需求然後有許多的那些產學合作的專班甚至我們透過這個非常重要"},{"start":16474.286,"end":16487.574,"text":"產學訓和在一起非常重要你也把你的這個成效怎麼樣順便資料給本席最後一個議題本席跟你討論部長在去年的時候呢教育部宣布"},{"start":16488.354,"end":16508.744,"text":"一年要2億多的經費也就是所謂的貧窮月金的這個方案當這個政策提出本席非常的感動所以本席要請教今年是首先率先的第一年執行的成效怎麼樣預算到目前為止運用了多少"},{"start":16510.411,"end":16518.939,"text":"請告訴我目前兩億多你用了多少?你要求各校去來申請你用了多少?請告訴我數字你現在用了多少?你現在用了多少?你叫各校自己"},{"start":16533.706,"end":16543.912,"text":"部長你請聽清楚我們好不容易有這麼樣好的政策來協助你知道一個女人一個婦女啊她一年生理的用品要多少錢嗎"},{"start":16545.74,"end":16573.728,"text":"十萬那所以所謂的貧窮月金這一塊能夠在政府來宣告來執行我是很感動但是目前用了多少執行單位不知道你們的方案是什麼不知道因為你要求各個學校執行來申請各校不一有的運用獎助學金來申請可以如此嗎你的目的是要用在生理必須用品上對不對部長"},{"start":16575.268,"end":16590.098,"text":"我請你去嚴查好不好因為今年現在已經11月到現在主辦單位不知道用了多少錢哪有立法院通過的預算不知道用了多少錢這不對的啊就我的了解大概事實上是不持良意啊"},{"start":16590.638,"end":16599.925,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":16617.439,"end":16640.045,"text":"方式不一所以我也非常的希望既然有良好的政策你應該去討論怎麼樣的一個基礎概念再由學校再行因應不一樣的面向來申請這樣子才是真正的來落實貧窮月經真正的幫助需要的人嘛對不對預算才不會亂花嘛謝謝委員"},{"start":16641.265,"end":16658.87,"text":"謝謝我是認為有精進的方案委員的這一個提醒對我們在推動這一個友善的生理用品我想那是有幫助的好那你把你精進方案跟你的預算執行的成效順便再給本席我們一起加油好嗎謝謝部長、署長請、司長請回謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢我們再來請吳春辰委員質詢"},{"start":16679.23,"end":16707.497,"text":"有請鄭部長還有張亮次長有請鄭部長跟張亮次長委員好部長好張亮次長好今天在座有47位大學校長每一位大學校長都是我非常尊敬的人但是在這裡我要特別彰顯"},{"start":16709.768,"end":16735.747,"text":"教育部長、次長在教壇上面就是教壇盟主,對不對?不敢盟主?怎麼會不敢?今天都是...沒有,我們是合作夥伴合作夥伴沒有沒有沒有所以今天我在這裡也另外要彰顯因為我是教育文委員會的委員我在這裡也要彰顯一點就是說部長、教育部長在到立法院來是很受尊重的"},{"start":16738.102,"end":16762.056,"text":"而且我們要討論的是有層次的問題行政立法是可以合作無間是一個進步的國家團隊所以以下我想要跟大家討論的也跟在座的大學校長有關的也就是少子女化的大學困境有何解方"},{"start":16765.171,"end":16783.242,"text":"上一次10月16號我提出的這個質詢後來被修理得很慘我提出這個表來說學生越來越少那預算越來越多我們從93年教育預算是1367億到113年是3390億增加了2000億但是我們的學生人數呢從93年的505萬"},{"start":16794.409,"end":16820.988,"text":"到113年的404萬減少了100萬人那為什麼預算越來越多那個講的就是說大家就說這個委員太俗氣了教育是崇高的事業怎麼可以從這種算錢的問題來這一個所以呢應該沒有這樣的一個意思沒有這樣的意思那是不是請部長解釋這是什麼狀況"},{"start":16823.953,"end":16846.698,"text":"我想當然這個少子化學生人數確實是減少那物價指數當然有一些這個也有部分的增加但是就陳儒委員今天關心的大學怎麼樣永續發展從終身學習的一個概念讓大學有一個更更好的一些這個發展我想"},{"start":16847.618,"end":16871.672,"text":"這也是政府基本上的一個態度我們希望他能夠在教育品質隨著這個經費在我們的這個整個總體的一個這個經濟裡邊我們能夠有更多的一些資源來挹注這個大學今天新聞當中很被重視的就是川普宣布要成立政府效率部"},{"start":16872.552,"end":16900.291,"text":"然後指派由馬斯克還有拉瑪斯瓦米兩位企業家來率領領導政府的效率部他們認為政府要解構官僚體系消除凡文怒節、尊潔浪費支出、重整聯邦機構這一個部長覺得我們中華民國政府是不是也需要來一個效率部"},{"start":16902.801,"end":16906.523,"text":"政府的效率這是每一個國家都會追求的。"},{"start":16917.15,"end":16933.023,"text":"絕對是大大的支持在國會當中對於教育很多但是呢我們這個的效率是不是能夠更加的精實更加的精進包括很多大學看起來財務還是虧損狀態還是國立的所以這一個還是要有企業家精神"},{"start":16943.012,"end":16945.675,"text":"還是我們教育應該有經濟的地方還是很多啦"},{"start":16949.127,"end":16973.747,"text":"然後這裡來講就是說這一直我在立法院提倡的叫壯士代這個是國發會的資料我們1970年代的時候人口是長金字塔的樣子年齡中位數是19歲也就是說一半的人在19歲以下到2040年我們的年齡中位數是52歲"},{"start":16976.39,"end":16992.179,"text":"從19歲到變成52歲這是一個社會結構最基本的東西那在各位跟教育絕對有非常密切的關係那不曉得大家有沒有注意到整個教育體系所以現在因為"},{"start":16993.28,"end":17008.937,"text":"大家都還是停留在1970年代的思維金字塔認為年輕人孩子很多所以才會造成現在大學的困境從這個表當中國畫會的推估今年我們的大學人口還有87萬到2040年會剩下67萬"},{"start":17013.26,"end":17028.489,"text":"如果到了2070年如果低推過來獎會剩下31萬幾乎剩下三分之一那我不曉得所謂的學校的一個計畫有沒有把這個變數納進來整個教育的一個"},{"start":17034.312,"end":17061.101,"text":"那部長你剛來的時候所以我也給你加油我們鄭部長第一個有提悟到這個問題因為針對少子化所以大學要敞開大門大學不是只有18歲來念的我們應該是全年齡都可以來念的部長一開始我記得對委員提出第三人生大學這個壯世代也非常的佩服但是包括那個林青霞"},{"start":17063.082,"end":17074.133,"text":"說他在電影裡面經常演大學生,但是他最大遺憾就是沒進大學現在我們60歲,平均60歲退休,60歲已經將近600萬人"},{"start":17076.747,"end":17094.985,"text":"這些人大概只有10%人經過大學,因為以前大學門檻很高,很難進去。所以這些人叫圓夢嘛,他們想進大學。那這是不是很好,這些人掌握壯士代55歲以上,掌握台灣三分之二的財富。"},{"start":17096.326,"end":17123.731,"text":"然後呢他們很想進大學這是我對委員配伍的地方因為他確實是一個很好的想法如果企業家來講早就想到這個也符合我們終身學習的一個政策另外這個是解決少子化的問題我們未來因為高齡化這叫扶養比高齡化高齡化被扶養的當分子然後工作人口當分母"},{"start":17124.631,"end":17149.057,"text":"因為高齡化所以分子越來越大因為少子化分母越來越小目前是3.6比1啦3.6個人撫養一個到2041年變2比1到2057年變1比1年輕人就被壓垮了啦那怎麼解決撞世代的方法就是把分子撞起來拉下來當分母嘛分母就很強壯那怎麼撞起來就是要進大學啊"},{"start":17150.336,"end":17165.176,"text":"他們到60歲現在醫學很發達還有30年健康認證不要把他們變成是一個被撫養的人而是能夠投入社會積極貢獻所以第三認證大學對他們來講非常的重要是嗎?部長同意"},{"start":17165.737,"end":17184.768,"text":"我剛才特別提到說對委員我進來聽到委員的一些對整個人的生涯的發展包括大學如何去拓展這個結合終身學習有更多的一些人能夠進入到大學資源那麼豐富我們應該能夠善加應用"},{"start":17185.188,"end":17205.7,"text":"那個部長這一份是6月3號的時候發給我的文你就是說你就任之後發給我的第一份文就是撞世代第三屆人生教育機制的研議情形的一個計畫有回報來所以表示很積極剛上任就有積極的回應那我們看這回應當中"},{"start":17206.981,"end":17222.352,"text":"有提出了短期會有做第三人生大學的一個核心課程的研磨的計畫中期就是要開始有一個試辦計畫長期要把第三人生大學跟學位來銜接當時過來的這一份計畫書是這樣寫"},{"start":17227.529,"end":17253.651,"text":"那所以在座給各位大學校長了解教育部現在是要推動這個東西嗎?是嗎?是我們可以跟各大學而且經過後來的公聽會教育部也有參與也經對於方法在研究就從學士學位的學程專班或者是多元專長的學位學程專班看起來內容都已經有對事辦計畫有具體的進度了"},{"start":17260.395,"end":17273.7,"text":"事實上有很多學校包括華藩大學、包括公共大學都已經響應想要來做第三人生大學而且正式在招生執行所以這個事辦計畫"},{"start":17277.253,"end":17294.488,"text":"目前進行狀況怎麼樣?可不可以請部長來跟大家講一下?是不是陳這一個師長?包委員,大概這示範計畫我們現在已經研擬了相對多一句接下來就會跟學校來做溝通預計年底就會來完成這個示範計畫明年會來對外說明,謝謝"},{"start":17299.119,"end":17311.992,"text":"明年1月份可以推動事辦,但是外面都不太了解,是不是教育部可以多多倡導一下?我們來倡導"},{"start":17316.027,"end":17329.714,"text":"那接下來就是說這個事辦之後是不是開放全國大專業校來廣泛的建立第三人生大學目前看原來的長城計劃有這一個"},{"start":17333.916,"end":17351.982,"text":"長期規劃我們事實上確實是這樣想法我一直認為我們大學能不能永續發展能不能發展出特色有許多的學校你真的不要再設想你的大一新生是18歲你不要再去搶18歲然後我們大學在30歲以後事實上我們"},{"start":17352.782,"end":17360.95,"text":"台灣現在目前的教育的一個現況人才培育的一個現況大部分都是大學畢業或者研究所畢業他們投入職場"},{"start":17362.567,"end":17390.32,"text":"當他重新回到大學他可能因為產業人這個能力上的需求可能因為生涯發展上的改變可能因為修器上的一些需要以大學現在的提供的這個課程跟施施的能量他事實上是可以更海納百川讓30歲以後的人不管他進來臨床整護或者進來休學我想許多的那個可能正是我們教育部目前內部在規劃的"},{"start":17391.88,"end":17417.688,"text":"這個就是我最後這個等於部長在我們各大學五菱盟主不是五菱盟主教壇盟主跟各大學校長做的承諾也就是說我們要來推動而且從明年第一季開始試辦而且接下來要鼓勵全國的大專院校來推動第三人生大學那大學會變得更精彩"},{"start":17418.588,"end":17430.073,"text":"會變得更充實善用高齡他們的智力開發他們的產能所以謝謝部長謝謝委員部長、次長等請回謝謝吳春城委員的質詢再來我們請羅志強委員質詢主席有請部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":17455.029,"end":17473.4,"text":"委員好部長好國立臺北科技大學打算要建一個環校步道它要想要讓學生還有周邊的民眾有一個運動休憩的空間如果落成了我有榮幸邀請部長去北科大環校跑一圈嗎"},{"start":17475.292,"end":17484.602,"text":"呃...我很想跑但是因為...確實我自己...呃...這一個...來你走路一圈也可以啦欸...那...那...也沒問題那...好...您答應了嘛...好...沒問題啊...但前提是他要蓋的成啦...是...他要蓋的成"},{"start":17489.413,"end":17505.122,"text":"我跟部長說北科大我們的王校長提出這個環校步道當時跟我講的時候我真的是覺得非常驚豔為什麼呢這環校步道如果落成政府學校市民學生市營百利而無一害"},{"start":17505.982,"end":17524.201,"text":"但是抱歉我這一年當立委以後我跟王校長不知道找農水署找市政府找很多單位開了無數次協調會總覺得事情開始有曙光了又好像是差了一步所以今天只好來找部長了我跟部長說其實大概情形是這樣"},{"start":17525.822,"end":17550.534,"text":"這個環校步道大概在它的東西跟南三面是沒問題因為這三面都是北科大的地所以沒問題但北面有幾塊卡到了農水署的地但是農水署的地其實荒在那幾十年基本上也完全沒有辦法做任何運用因為道理很簡單嘛北科大的建築物在這邊農水署的地就貼在建築物旁邊它根本蓋不了任何東西"},{"start":17551.494,"end":17578.354,"text":"可是呢就是荒在那個地方不做任何處理也沒辦法做任何處理那北科大希望說能夠在上面蓋個步道那建設經費是北科大自己來募自己來籌自己來出但是很奇怪就是卡住了所以我要跟部長說能不能麻煩部長也加入我們這個協調的陣容跟農業部跟台北市政府共同促成這一件好事好不好"},{"start":17581.015,"end":17600.989,"text":"聽聞這麼一講雖然是我第一次對不起喔第一次理解看起來他是一個不錯的想法大學的資源跟社區能夠分享我想那是一個美麗的一個想像這是非常美麗的想像所以我很佩服北科大提出的概念就是卡在什麼卡在各個單位說有什麼法規問題但我要特別講剛剛其實我們胡春生委員講"},{"start":17607.373,"end":17610.755,"text":"川普總統找了馬斯克要成立政府效率部"},{"start":17636.612,"end":17660.831,"text":"所以因此這一個北科大的一個環校步道我真的在這邊還是拜託部長我有機會可能也要去拜訪您一下那看有沒有辦法去協調農業部我想我已經充分了解我來跟這一個王校長來對對對那我覺得教育部一起來幫忙啦但其實我們這麼多協調會不是白開啦基本上也獲得一些進展但是我希望能夠加速這個整個溝通的過程那"},{"start":17661.371,"end":17677.66,"text":"我們是針對很多各個單位提出來的所謂的法規的問題不斷的找解方那我也希望說因為教育部是主管機關嘛所以能夠一起來參與把這個解方找出來來促成這個利而無一害的事情好不好部長"},{"start":17680.319,"end":17694.629,"text":"謝謝校長另外因為時間的問題我很快的來說我們的學習歷程檔案制度是做大學多元入校跟四季二專統策招生的依據現在上路6年了對不對也編了大概13.4億的預算來辦理對不對我想請問部長你覺得對於成效你滿意嗎你打幾分"},{"start":17708.356,"end":17721.285,"text":"我基本上我覺得這對新世代年輕人的發展是有幫助的我跟部長說如果是經濟弱勢學生的家長恐怕會打不及格我舉幾個數字事實上從108年到112年經濟弱勢學生的課程學習成果未提交的比例從24.66%"},{"start":17730.911,"end":17751.302,"text":"增加到42.25%然後多元表現的未提交比例是從46.34成長到62.32%我看到是經濟弱勢學生在這個制度體系之下他們顯得是步履蠻山非常困難而且情況是越來越嚴重不知道部長有掌握到嗎"},{"start":17752.625,"end":17776.693,"text":"我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣跟第一線上的這個高中職能夠有一個共同的我最後做一個簡單的結論啦事實上我跟部長應該都屬於大學聯考時代的人嘛對不對雖然當時的學習方式有人批評很八股缺乏彈性但是呢他實在有一個優點就是公平嘛"},{"start":17777.423,"end":17789.209,"text":"所以像我自己就是碼頭工人之子賴總統也是礦工之子我常常在想今天這個制度如果是我是以我那時候家庭背景的話我恐怕也教不出這些什麼多元學期的歷程"},{"start":17790.575,"end":17817.207,"text":"為什麼?因為我們的家庭我父母親可能小學都沒有畢業他們自己也沒有辦法提供我這方面做一個所謂的協助的時候靠自己學生來去做那就是等於是考你的原生家庭的經濟實力了嘛所以此這個部分不是說反對這個制度但是如果造成我前面講的衰退這麼多的提交筆那我認為對經濟弱勢學生是非常不公平的拜託我們部長能夠好好檢討這件事情好不好"},{"start":17817.972,"end":17831.098,"text":"所以我們來這個時候我來更了解來更努力來看怎麼樣對弱勢的學生有一個更多的一些支持我想江心平先生陳儒委員所提的我也是來自一個"},{"start":17833.747,"end":17845.915,"text":"相對弱勢的一個理念所以我覺得怎麼樣讓經濟弱勢的學生不要被這個制度所耽誤這是我們共同關心的事情謝謝部長請回謝謝羅志強委員的質詢再來我們請林月琴委員質詢好"},{"start":17864.432,"end":17868.273,"text":"主席謝謝,我們有請部長有請部長委員好部長辛苦了今天還是要針對教育部因為要審預算提出兩件我一直很關心的事一個事實上就是下一頁"},{"start":17890.299,"end":17919.498,"text":"不當對待的問題還有一個是交通安全教育的那個弱勢那因為目前看到的一個狀態是像不當對待那我從民間團體一進到立法院就接到非常多以前過去的民間團體就已經接收到非常多不當對待的案件那進來立法院的話常常我的臉書或者是我後台都會收到這樣的一個陳情案那可是這陳情案就讓人看到是有非常多的問題"},{"start":17920.58,"end":17925.431,"text":"表示沒有給我們地方政府SOP譬如說通報"},{"start":17927.029,"end":17952.777,"text":"社會局跟教育局的理解上都不太一樣甚至學校的老師都不知道要怎麼通報還有認定委員會的比例事實上是失衡的那監視畫面為什麼不給家長看或者是我看完之後結果把它全部刪除然後以至於我沒有辦法報案然後我的孩子如果受到傷害的話也是石沉大海沒有辦法進行調查甚至在調查報告不知道"},{"start":17954.087,"end":17967.299,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":17976.288,"end":17996.118,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":17998.741,"end":18014.978,"text":"謝謝委員提醒確實我們對兒少的一個權益怎麼樣去確保那麼我們過去的這個認定委員會裡邊也因委員的這個關心我們確實已經在朝外加幼兒性平靈異的學史專家能夠調高到三人"},{"start":18016.201,"end":18018.422,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管"},{"start":18034.949,"end":18051.778,"text":"教育部整個學前教育的行政跟督導經費編了695億那其中完善法令跟行政預算的話跟前一年相同可是我們剛看到這些都是要去做處理的你怎麼去督促地方首先先請你們把"},{"start":18052.899,"end":18068.391,"text":"指法跟母法統一還有SOP流程可以好好的拿出來保證這次大概在預算裡面我對這一塊是有意見的接下來就是我們的交通安全的一個問題交通安全我想"},{"start":18069.652,"end":18089.578,"text":"教育部有編列預算要去做推動可是實際上我們現在看到亂糟糟為什麼亂糟糟融入融入到哪裡過去我們就看到融入到國文課要叫小朋友寫交通安全成語小孩就寫一馬當先、蓬城萬里我如果一馬當先我大概就掛了就不會蓬城萬里了"},{"start":18089.958,"end":18113.792,"text":"所以我不知道為什麼要融入到國文課怎麼會是把交通安全融入到國文課甚至融入到數學課甚至融入到英文課裡面只要學交通的英文的一個標誌的標語就好了這個不會改變他的交通觀念甚至你的統計標準我不太清楚這邊都說有達到將近七成八成九成都有執行就我現場的瞭解"},{"start":18116.086,"end":18142.559,"text":"對,臺北市有99.3%可是每一個學校只有一個年級實施這叫做99.3嗎?只要有學校實施就叫做實施可是有學校裡面只有一個年級執行的話這樣子普遍孩子有真的接受到交通安全教育為什麼對這一塊特別的關注也就是今天交通史商已經是佔兒少史商最高的第一位的時候為什麼國家可以這麼不重視教育部怎麼不"},{"start":18143.399,"end":18151.827,"text":"教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機"},{"start":18160.475,"end":18186.542,"text":"本來要你上課結果你是每一個招會10分鐘然後只要24次就達到你所謂的4小時這真的有讓孩子更懂得怎麼去自我保護嗎更何況我們現在看到的是校慶滾輪胎然後扮演車子的造型這個叫交通安全宣導嗎甚至印筆製或者是繪畫書法這些真的都是在滿足到我們孩子的學習嗎那"},{"start":18188.422,"end":18209.563,"text":"沒有一個完整的制度在做規範目前沒有錯教育部已經弄了個指引這個指引只有誰會去遵循只有要參加你的交通安全評鑑的人才會去遵循今天每個縣市只派一所學校出來被你評鑑的話或是被你防腐的話一個縣市如果有300"},{"start":18211.545,"end":18218.266,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":18241.391,"end":18270.05,"text":"部裡編針對這一塊要重視不是一個學校只有一個年級如果執行三年級我就問你四年級會不會發生交通事故五年級會不會發生交通事故甚至一二年級的話更嚴重可是都沒有在做所以如果你編了這樣的錢我也希望在後端因為這個預算我還是要很慎重來評估所以請部長你們可能要回去看看你們到底要怎麼去執行否則後邊大概預算你可能要去思考那就"},{"start":18271.111,"end":18271.271,"text":"採用凍結方式"},{"start":18294.345,"end":18313.133,"text":"署長來跟您請益我們來跟地方看怎麼樣來落實這一個部長真的要做因為我們今年已經9月份才升到9萬多的時候我們孩子這麼少的時候每一個孩子都不能少的狀況底下一定要用最嚴重的交通安全來著手是好 謝謝部長、署長、院長請回謝謝林月琴委員的質詢再來我們請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":18325.712,"end":18342.982,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 有請部長好 有請鄭部長順便有請幾位學校的校長喔臺大校長、成大校長中興大校長好 請校長移動一下齊藝科大校長臺中科大校長好 校長們請 辛苦了"},{"start":18344.141,"end":18373.624,"text":"好請校長先站一下喔不好意思喔委員好好部長好10月16日喔我有一個問題呢一個月前喔我有問這個部長啊詢問重啟學生啊我們的陸森來台的事情一個月過後我想先詢問一下這一個陸森來台的證件啊我想這個是賴清德總統當時有說的對吧是那您個人支持陸森來台嗎是當時我上任的時候事實上也對媒體有表達你支持欸好我們請台大的校長"},{"start":18375.083,"end":18387.074,"text":"校長您支持嗎委員好我支持謝謝好陳大校長我支持國家的政策好新大的校長謝謝委員好我們也支持好我們臺中科大委員好我們支持好我們請議謝謝"},{"start":18395.998,"end":18425.065,"text":"主持人好謝謝謝謝大家的表態因為這個關係我想再請問一下部長請問一下你的相關的回覆本席還沒有收到目前一個月過去了請問還要多久會給本席非常抱歉這一個看起來這一個是我們的一個疏漏我們分個月前你有答應我還記得嗎是還記得嗎還是你忘了真的太多事情我想我們業務單位這裡邊主管單位我們來你不要到時候真的當"},{"start":18425.985,"end":18430.669,"text":"體育部部長我還要去那邊找你昨天的執行我們看到這個臺灣隊這個贏了韓國真的非常興奮我們一起來努力重啟陸生是賴清德總統的一個政見在座各校校長"},{"start":18442.338,"end":18463.798,"text":"也都歡迎陸生所以我們是在幫賴清德總統爭取他的政見能夠落實那我想現行主要是透過陸聯會的機制開放陸生來台但因為兩岸關係的一個惡化陸方也對賴清德總統的一些言論不滿那都是兩岸政治的一個問題我們不談我們對於教育政策我們在乎的是教育以及學校的一個經營"},{"start":18465.299,"end":18489.137,"text":"非要透過陸聯會這唯一的管道嗎?教育部有沒有更積極的作為?這個部分有沒有其他限制性的一個法規一個方向來做思考?跟委員報告我們過去確實他的一個兩岸的一個學衛生他確實是透過陸聯會但是我們也主動在這個南台科大是我們的一個PO辦公室嘛那在整個主動聯絡裡邊確實對方都沒有回覆"},{"start":18493.12,"end":18512.674,"text":"所以我說一定要有其他的作為嗎?對不對?難道你要在這邊直接宣布賴總統的政見破功無法達成嗎?但是目前兩岸的這些各大學短期的一些交流,它事實上還是有的好,但是我們希望各個學校現在急迫為什麼需要入生,您應該最清楚吧?"},{"start":18513.783,"end":18531.277,"text":"因為掃紙化的關係而又招生不易的關係離共兩岸有更多的彼此的更希望教育的交流一個理解理解這個差異然後能夠彼此有一個更好的一個互動我想這是也是我們在人才培育上我想本席要提到的為什麼我們積極的在探討這個政見"},{"start":18532.278,"end":18554.83,"text":"一方面希望能夠落實一方面其實我們收到很多大學端學校有可能跟我們陳情關於所謂的陸聯會目前斷絕消息我們該有什麼樣的方式能夠讓陸生再來台我想很多學校都很期待我希望部長這個部分能夠積極的想辦法可以嗎我們來努力好謝謝我先請台大跟成大的校長先回座好不好"},{"start":18556.186,"end":18581.077,"text":"好謝謝喔那部長我另外再跟你請教一下喔部長本席一直在關心一間政府機構的公告辦理約聘人員的職缺案子喔想跟你請教一下喔該公告之徵才所需的條件資格阿內容寫著包含國內外醫藥民生生命科學等領域相關科系學士以上學歷等本席一直很好奇喔有聽過醫藥衛生或者是醫藥"},{"start":18582.778,"end":18606.132,"text":"衛生但就是沒有聽過醫藥、民生本席也於11月12日8時發文給教育部詢問但今天遇到部長我想說用問的比較快因為您本身也是承認中山大學的一個校長您有聽過中山大學自己本身也有醫學院、理學院、社科院海洋科學院等學院非常完整但是部長請問一下醫藥、民生"},{"start":18608.473,"end":18613.925,"text":"究竟表示具備何等領域的何等科系畢業之學士才符合公告的一個標準?"},{"start":18615.26,"end":18642.159,"text":"醫藥名聲醫藥基本上就是大概很清楚就是醫學相關跟藥醫藥很清楚名聲呢名聲呢名聲大概是比較是來自一個生活上的許多的包含生活科學等等的這些生活科學我覺得他的範疇有點廣法律序算不算名聲這要看怎麼聽民法算不算名聲"},{"start":18643.666,"end":18670.626,"text":"民法是經濟系算不算民生廣義的來講當然也可以買賣東西算不算民生所以我越講越覺得很奇怪喔如果部長醫藥民生民生就是民生學院畢業科系就算的話那同樣邏輯賴清德總統是醫學院的物理治療學系那麼他直接可以去考醫生了啊為什麼要去念學士後醫學系難道他是傻子嗎"},{"start":18671.94,"end":18691.567,"text":"我想對於現在的徵才我們一直在講衛福部也被我一直在糾正寫清楚說明白你們到底需要什麼樣的人才不要任何的模糊空間我們不希望透過這些模糊空間開放了一些模糊空間的人來能夠錄取這個部分我想我表達的夠清楚吧是"},{"start":18694.212,"end":18716.438,"text":"我本席沒有要特意要針對誰只是想請問科系要納入什麼樣的學院到底有沒有什麼標準不然社工系看起來也像社會科學系啊科學院呢對不對怎麼會納民生學院所以部長這很重要因為政府機關公告辦理的約聘用人員的一個職缺就以學院區分而不是科系屬性教育部如果沒有律定清楚人事會亂"},{"start":18718.365,"end":18739.314,"text":"我想在許多的徵才裡面當然他有一些主修或者專長上的概念但是大概有時候會有比較模糊的這個比較寬廣的一個定義上在人才的一個recruit的過程裡面我想他其實大概希望說如果有真的有跨領域的"},{"start":18740.575,"end":18745.418,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所屬單位預算案有關教育部主管47所屬基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功"},{"start":18770.615,"end":18784.263,"text":"部長,部長沒有,我是要跟你講話部長,您知道我是什麼學校畢業的嗎?不好意思我中興大學畢業的,校友我也是勤益科大畢業的,台中科大沒考上"},{"start":18785.199,"end":18790.382,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管474年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機"},{"start":18804.707,"end":18827.862,"text":"中興大學想要爭取學士後護理系這沒有累過的啦都是我自己去調查了解的啦那我想這個AI生成室的一個實驗所以及校園食農教育的實踐基地以及我一直在跟你講老舊校舍的改善我想這個部分部長希望上述的計畫可以多多幫忙那後續勤益科大、台中科大"},{"start":18828.88,"end":18857.093,"text":"我也會持續來努力跟你追蹤但是要跟您報告一下因為我是本委啦齁那又是這三所有淵源是那我希望說部長能夠多幫我們照顧一下尤其現在我要跟你談討的就是學師後護理系剛剛陳昭之委員也有提到我們在早上也有開記者會為護理人員發聲護理人力已經吃緊了許多的醫院都關床中興大學有心要辦這個學師後護理系應該給予大力的一個支持可以認同嗎"},{"start":18858.473,"end":18887.273,"text":"我想確實我們現在在現場裡面第一線這個護理人員確實是有一些人力上的一些需求但是我們整個培育的過程目前所培育的等於說量是夠但是因為他留下來在醫療院所相關的一些工作的一個服務他真的是大概只剩下一半所以變成我們在人才培育的總體量"},{"start":18888.954,"end":18913.305,"text":"所以我們只好另外一種方法就是加大加多人數繼續培養更多的人嗎?好不好當然我知道現在就是培養歸培養投入職場歸投入職場那另外就是說在可能也要拜託這個中興大學在專業審查裡面所有他的proposal他也要有一套這你放心這個我們中興大學有品質的我們會處理好但是請你多照顧齁"},{"start":18914.205,"end":18933.895,"text":"但我想中興大學的農學院也很有名現任農業部長陳俊濟部長也都是中興寶寶從大學到博班都中興我想今天要盡一份心力校園實農教育的實踐基地也希望部裡能夠給予一個協助就我好像片面也了解好像是卓榮泰院長也是中興大學的"},{"start":18934.773,"end":18948.952,"text":"中興確實培養非常多的這個優秀人才對所以這個部分為台中我們最重要的幾位科大來發聲台中科大、新義科大、中興大學來為您拜託一下好嗎好我們請三位校長請回座謝謝"},{"start":18951.633,"end":18973.099,"text":"好那再來呢我想跟你探討部長去年年底新北市有發生這個校園割喉案教育部2月5日公告修正學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生的辦法注意事項就其中放寬了校安的檢查限制明確規範收書包原則及流程想和你探討看看部長請你看一下這張圖片"},{"start":18974.839,"end":18986.279,"text":"這是今年一到六月的校安通報以及去年同期關於暴力事件偏差行為所做的一個相關數量來做一個量化我們可以看到這些數量的一個比照"},{"start":18987.543,"end":19009.689,"text":"您先過目一下根據數據顯示從大學到國小暴力事件及偏差行為通報數量有顯著的增長而兒少事件通報也同樣增長甚至在幼兒園的數據也高於去年同期那當然我記得部長有曾經說過當然就是說我們把這個黑數給發掘也是其中之一我們讚賞"},{"start":19010.549,"end":19028.047,"text":"但是我們還是要從這一個數據裡面去做一個探討它的確是增長的一個狀況不管是不是有黑素的一個存在但是這樣子你覺得是否認同這反映出校園安全的問題有一點感覺到敏感度越來日漸嚴重您說呢"},{"start":19028.834,"end":19028.954,"text":"教育部長"},{"start":19049.94,"end":19068.148,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19068.148,"end":19094.311,"text":"另外還有一個數據請你看看現行的校安通報的事件類表屬性及名稱的一覽表其實在這裡面其實也並沒有明確規定收出違禁品必須通報這些數據的上升不是統計的一個偏差而是具體事件的一個反應我想這些問題我們都希望點出校園的安全我們都重視我相信你也重視但是問題就是它逐漸的嚴重我們該怎麼去做防範"},{"start":19096.092,"end":19104.279,"text":"本席提出兩點建議因為時間有限簡化校安檢查的一個流程我希望這個部分你們能夠重視,您覺得呢?"},{"start":19105.528,"end":19132.097,"text":"當然那目前我們有看到還有一個問題就是加強教師的一個培訓建議教育部加強對教師的一個校安處理能力的一個培訓能夠有更多的資源明確的指導確保教師在面對校園突發狀況的時候有足夠的權限以及專業的知識我想這兩個點希望你能夠帶回去做建議確實老師的真能怎麼樣讓他能夠協助這個學校的校安"},{"start":19133.217,"end":19156.897,"text":"有一個更好的友善環境這事實上是我們一直在努力當然做得不夠我們再來看我們一起加油但是看到這些暴力事件的數量增加都感到非常的沉重我是三個孩子的爸爸這些數字的背後都是一個又一個受到傷害的學生這些孩子都是每一個家長的寶貝希望教育部能夠重視這些問題我們一起給孩子更好的未來好嗎這應該這也是我們的責任好謝謝"},{"start":19160.233,"end":19163.335,"text":"謝謝羅庭薇委員的質詢再來我們請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席有請部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":19193.925,"end":19194.185,"text":"委員會議員委員會議員"},{"start":19213.246,"end":19226.913,"text":"護導原住民學生的生活學業促進校園的友善所以鼓勵設置原住民族學生資源中心我們都說那個叫做原資中心那麼開設以來呢其實從一開始"},{"start":19229.434,"end":19254.382,"text":"只有原民會提供的開辦費30萬後來教育部很用心在我們多方的質詢跟要求關心之下在109年有增加了專任人力一名那個時候是45萬到了112年更好了每增加200名原民學生再增加一個專任人力這時候是一名50萬"},{"start":19256.282,"end":19283.309,"text":"現在又又更好了因為明年每增加100名的原民學生會再可以增加一名專任人力而且提高到65萬那為什麼我要這樣子問其實這幾年我們常常可以接到很多關於大學原資中心的陳情有一點點違背他原來的設立目的因為是為了要促進"},{"start":19284.469,"end":19298.884,"text":"委員會主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主管194年度教育部主"},{"start":19299.525,"end":19322.275,"text":"一百九十五名的專任人力有百分之六十五他的薪資拿到的是在三萬六以下我們來細看因為我想要所資但是教育部告訴我沒有做這方面的資料所以助理自己一間一間去問以中區的九間學校調查我們可以看到"},{"start":19323.228,"end":19343.891,"text":"有一個領31K的他還要負責原專班的所有事務有一個領29K的他還要做僑生的相關業務以及課外組的交辦事項有一個是碩士他領35K他還要去做園民會的計畫的一些申請"},{"start":19344.932,"end":19351.561,"text":"教育部主管47、審查114年度教育部主管47、審查114年度教育部主管47、審查114年度教育部主管47、審查114年度教育部主管47、審查114年度教育部主管47、審查114年度"},{"start":19361.255,"end":19374.479,"text":"另外他們的業務很繁雜即便申請能力達標我們有問學校為什麼不願意徵聘因為他說我們不確定到底教育部會不會核定給我所以他們也不敢來徵聘來編列"},{"start":19376.34,"end":19376.74,"text":"教育部所屬機教育部所屬機"},{"start":19392.828,"end":19411.057,"text":"我知道我們的原資中心有分全國四區那區的原資中心他到底扮演什麼角色可以協助教育部我想這個部分可能我們還要再來精進所以我希望呢一週內可以來辦公室跟我一起來演商感效的方案部長可以嗎"},{"start":19413.718,"end":19422.122,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們原住民學生的一些發展跟受教的潛力我們希望一次次的檢討可以邁向更好我們教育部都會積極地按照規定來補助"},{"start":19429.585,"end":19446.361,"text":"好 謝謝部長勇於認識 見急履急那麼我第二個部分我也要談的就是失陪的部分我們都在抱怨教育部這個我們的這個看不見的民族教育開缺還有好辛苦的原住民公費生為什麼"},{"start":19447.802,"end":19468.017,"text":"因為教育部112到114我們有一個叫做原住民族教育去做完備師資培育跟聘用但是部長我跟您說從108推動以來已經出現了第一批的畢業生而且有兩位他是通過了高級認證但是有什麼用沒有缺"},{"start":19468.797,"end":19493.119,"text":"然後呢這些原住民公費生很難他除了跟一般的學校一樣他要通過教檢他的學科能力要精熟他也要有英語能力的測驗通過他必須要通過足語中高級而且他要加修12學分的民族教育次專長所以部長你有沒有聽過原住民公費生他其實折損率很高啊"},{"start":19493.86,"end":19498.183,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":19515.233,"end":19529.738,"text":"理念規定的原住民的失資源額沒有辦法能夠通過法定的比率所以108年的時候有大修過那大修他說10年後要達成的目標我先跟部長講目前看起來也是達不到為什麼"},{"start":19531.258,"end":19552.38,"text":"如果我們的原住民及師資換算出來應該要有1800位但是我們目前只有900多位還缺800多位那目前呢我們的師培公費生如果全部順利畢業有330位還是大大的短缺更何況是這些國高中他要分科來聘更加的困難"},{"start":19553.101,"end":19577.5,"text":"所以這些主語專任教師也根本找不到缺還要涉及到縣市開缺所以我想這個部分因為時間的關係我們不能夠讓這些原住民的師資生他有什麼未來可以相信他好難畢業他畢了業找不到缺所以我覺得這個部分我們要好好的來檢討所以部長我是希望說也可以一併的來辦公室我們來討論好不好"},{"start":19578.641,"end":19578.781,"text":"主席"},{"start":19595.55,"end":19621.037,"text":"嚴柱銘議員是不是只有在校生的一個培育方式還是用線上用許多的方式其他的方式包含那個標準我們是我也已經我們這個責成我們這一個業務單位也排好這一個跟嚴明會主委能夠有一個面對面的一個希望對嚴柱銘的一個教育在這邊能夠有一個更精進的一些作法"},{"start":19621.417,"end":19632.505,"text":"部長您已經有看到所以我希望能夠好好的坐下來談把這些問題改善那最後給我30秒我30秒我請台大校長10秒鐘台大校長請陳文章校長10秒10秒我就講一句話一句話回答好嗎校長您好您認得照片上這些人嗎"},{"start":19650.464,"end":19654.669,"text":"不認得,但是看過照片,謝謝好,我跟您說這張照片"},{"start":19655.931,"end":19683.152,"text":"恰恰是去年的今天滿一週年那我今天終於在質詢台上看到您了但是他們也很想看到您那我想這個部分山水有相逢那他們都很期待跟您後會有期是不是可以一週內到我的辦公室可以啦那事後跟委員口頭或書面說明好嗎我是希望到本席辦公室我們可以準備書面說明跟委員報告謝謝"},{"start":19683.812,"end":19688.993,"text":"請到本席的辦公室時間到了時間到了好謝謝部長部長請回校長謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員的質詢再來我們請葉元芝委員質詢有請鄭部長"},{"start":19717.054,"end":19736.067,"text":"部長好,剛剛有看到台大校長有呼籲說我們要增加高教經費本席也是非常支持那看到部長講說明年會高教增加59億那高教升更增加20億那我是建議啦,看看那個有關於大學社會責任實踐計畫能不能也增加預算"},{"start":19736.687,"end":19761.354,"text":"因為我覺得這樣的一個計畫其實對於減少學用落差是很有幫助的實際上配合高齡社會的來臨有些學校如果跟社區結合辦一些活躍老化的計畫其實不僅是可以讓學生學以致用更可以讓我們社區得到學校的協助因為畢竟大學的主要存在任務除了教學研究之外還有社區服務嘛那部長願意朝這個方向嗎"},{"start":19762.472,"end":19783.033,"text":"教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部"},{"start":19784.073,"end":19784.193,"text":"農業部總會講這樣的話"},{"start":19814.953,"end":19843.26,"text":"實際上是保酒爐不夠嘛他當初發包的時候來投標廠商能夠供給的量就只有六成所以我們新北市現在還少大概60萬瓶那你當務之急你應該要補足這個量啊怎麼會對外說我就不勉強學校喝了還有這樣子喔那你當初你農業部教育部就不要宣傳班班有鮮奶嘛我已經講過了啊不要好像口號喊得很高直接當做不到你就喊說兩班喝一瓶鮮奶就好了嘛"},{"start":19845.165,"end":19861.726,"text":"因為部長你願意,不是你去跟農業部溝通一下,因為現在很多家長在等啊,想說不是想說一個學期有44瓶,一個禮拜2瓶嗎?然後現在因為沒量,所以說我就不勉強你們喝了,不是不勉強人家喝,是人家喝不到啊,部長你有瞭解這個狀況嗎?"},{"start":19864.614,"end":19892.547,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個農業部在這個月底他會有一個你跟農業部講說請他趕快再找廠商來投標是你不是說因為不夠了講這種話都欺騙大家家長都生氣了我想應該農業部他就是農業部就這樣講的嘛農業部不會欺騙但是就是欺騙啦這一個廠商在整個供給量我跟你講慢慢有先男一團亂農業部當初這樣隨便喊出來"},{"start":19893.711,"end":19909.665,"text":"教育部跟教育單位在那邊收爛攤子我還有聽說有老師叫家長帶一個麻布袋來說一次把44瓶奶領回家還有看到那包酒奶拿回家不是小朋友在喝是家長在喝都有啦"},{"start":19910.385,"end":19922.604,"text":"但是你當初喊這個口號你就要達成你不能說對不起我做不到我就不勉強你得了便宜還賣乖喔做不到還把事情把責任推給家長喔都是不好意思都是我勉強你們喝我現在不勉強你了這是什麼態度啊部長"},{"start":19927.309,"end":19935.712,"text":"政策是良善希望能夠對付的能不能跟農業部長溝通一下可不可以你去找他講叫他不要隨便講這種話家長都生氣了第三個議題"},{"start":19945.555,"end":19969.042,"text":"那個有關於代理老師職前研資的計算因為大法官已經說違憲了嘛憲法法庭已經代理老師已經勝訴了但是這個事情已經隔了很久了已經非常久了那有很多代理老師在問我啊說說那現在進度怎麼樣實際上縣市政府還是並沒有把他的職前研資納入計算啊現在教育部的進度如何"},{"start":19972.028,"end":19993.708,"text":"確實這個有關代理老師的這些年資的計算我們現在地方政府也正在激起的這個不是地方政府啦教育部你現在怎麼做嘛我想這裡邊有許多的這個老師的一個聘用是來自於地方的沒有沒有沒有你現在大法官是說請教育部在一年內修法嘛對吧你有看他的那個訴訟的主文嗎有嗎"},{"start":19995.389,"end":20020.664,"text":"修法是因為包含緣何事在地方。第二個就是說當然泰里老師是地方單位在沒錯啊問題是你是中央主管機關啊你要有個態度你要找大家來溝通啊你現在進度怎麼樣嗎是不是能夠詳細請這個彭署長是謝謝委員就如您最後一句話我們很快會召集地方政府在12月中在11月底12月中之間一定會召集11月底12月中會召集所以還沒召集喔"},{"start":20021.164,"end":20041.046,"text":"我們已經做過幕僚作業了現在是要正式會議你們不是民進黨最尊重大法官嗎?怎麼大法官做決議都好像慢半拍沒有最尊重法律所以大概已經在尊重那請問一下部長有沒有算過各縣市甚至全國如果把代理教師的職前年資納入計算的話要增加多少支出有計算過嗎?"},{"start":20044.315,"end":20057.446,"text":"你知道為什麼會增加支出嗎?因為你如果把這些年資納入計算的話有時候他累積到一定的年限他要跳級嘛所以他薪酬會變高嘛那所以要增加支出嘛你有算過總共需要多少錢嗎?有算過嗎?"},{"start":20059.155,"end":20079.369,"text":"各位報告因為它會涉及到每一年老師禁用就是剛才那個維銘所提的我都知道這些我都知道了我問你有沒有計算過因為是八月份的事情當年度禁用的大概四到六億間四到六億間四億到六億間對不對確定喔我跟你講新北市"},{"start":20086.291,"end":20103.275,"text":"如果要把帶給教師的職錢年資記錄的話一年要兩億元啊一年要兩億啊我不知道你這四到六億是金錢因為我沒有去全國調查但西北市是兩億那這個其實對地方財政是一個很也是一個很大的負擔嘛那現在民進黨也不願意修財化法嘛"},{"start":20104.522,"end":20127.805,"text":"所以我是希望教育部第一個你可以考慮這筆預算應該是中央來編列去補助地方因為上一次代理教師本來是薪水是算10個月後來算到一年的時候中央只有補助第一年的一半所以後來每一年地方政府都要自己去自籌這個財源其實真的對於地方政府的財源也是造成負擔"},{"start":20129.859,"end":20138.338,"text":"教育部是可以補助地方嗎?例如說新北市2億,剛剛署長講說全國是4到6億那教育部有考慮要補助嗎?"},{"start":20139.978,"end":20166.635,"text":"跟我們報告確實這個教師的顏額是由地方來控管那我們在地方不是吧你那個時候你代理教師的你說從薪資從10個月到12個月當時教育部就有補助嘛只是我們當然覺得不夠你只有補助一年第一年的一半而已嘛那現在就問你說之前年資紀錄這全國4到6億那當然希望教育部可以編列預算來補助地方政府嘛因為財務法你也不讓他過啊"},{"start":20167.731,"end":20188.457,"text":"委員剛剛所提到大禮老師全年研資那個第一年因為之前研資啊剛剛您提到的那個第一次有補全月的全月全年的那個是因為第一年還沒編所以我們就補第二年以後從那裏一般性補助接著回到這個案子這個案子因為是有緣額如果非屬他們緣額是屬於計劃性的我們歷來都會有分工"},{"start":20189.197,"end":20195.221,"text":"原額本來就有正式原額的經費,本來就可以支援與代理老師的所有費用,至於屬於計畫性教育部補助的部分,我們會來處理"},{"start":20206.717,"end":20235.565,"text":"你就針對我的問題回答不要繞圈圈啦所以剛剛跟委員報告的是增加的4到6億這教育部有沒有要編預算就是補助地方政府還是說叫地方政府自籌裁員就這麼簡單的問題不要繞圈圈所以簡單的回答就是說屬於他的原額的部分他自己有經費非屬他原額屬於外加計劃性由中央補助的部分你會計劃性的你會給然後一般的但問題是你4到6億裡面多少是計劃性原額多少是一般性原額這個是會不會跟"},{"start":20235.965,"end":20260.214,"text":"委員再切清楚跟您說明我是覺得你第一年起碼你要補助人家啦好不好你研議一下好不好各位委員報告因為當時您寄到的那個12個月的另一個是當年度決定所以有半年的經費他們沒有所以來協助這個事情在憲法法庭確定之後馬上給人家去給啦所以小編114的時候地方政府已經要準備了因為教育部是最高的教育單位啦"},{"start":20261.072,"end":20280.81,"text":"那這部分我覺得你對老師好一點雖然是地方政府負責的但你對老師好一點我覺得對全國教育都有幫助啦好不好不要分那麼清楚啦你演繹一下你演繹一下然後再來跟那個我剛剛那個問題再請教一下所以什麼時候代理老師可以領到可以把他的職前年資納入基金最快什麼時候"},{"start":20281.633,"end":20307.261,"text":"按照憲法法庭的要求就是114學年114學年對,它是一年嘛對,114,最快114學年就可以納入最慢最慢,那最快勒?這個跟地方政府在一起在研究但是最慢一定在憲法法庭要求的一年內一定要處理完齁,那是憲法法庭嘛我如果你說你站在教育機關你的態度嘛不要跟我繞圈圈啦一個目標啦,最快多少?"},{"start":20308.402,"end":20332.724,"text":"人家現在都在等了嘛剛剛會涉及到有一些還要會商的因素我今天如果沒有問的話我們都不知道你有找地方來會商啊所以12月中以前8月份的時候那個道法官的判決出來了你到現在你到11月底才要去找人家那你就慢慢拖就好了嘛已經諮詢過了現在就是正式的會議所以什麼時候12月中以前我最快好累喔最快什麼時候"},{"start":20334.165,"end":20348.102,"text":"最快這個可能還要跟地方政府一起會商,尊重他們尊重地方政府,你沒有目標就對了最慢一定在114年我當然知道啊,不然你就違憲了嘛我先講是最快了,謝謝部長再請教一下,我來問一個體育的問題"},{"start":20352.304,"end":20373.432,"text":"我們有一個足球的六年的計劃嘛當初六年計劃編列多少?43億嘛是不是?是是嗎?是43億然後當 那個時候啊這個足球六年的計劃有定一個目標啦就是希望說我們的世界排名可以到100名以內對吧?市長知道這是嗎?市長知道這是嗎?是可是問題是"},{"start":20376.072,"end":20399.694,"text":"到目前為止這6年計畫過去之後我們看到2024年的10月我們FIFA的男子足球世界排名掉到168名並沒有達到當時的目標那我不知道說這個原因是什麼?署長知道嗎?報告委員那這個並不是在我任內去執行但是我大概知道是誰在任內不管嘛你現在是署長嘛"},{"start":20401.857,"end":20426.186,"text":"在執行的過程這個是男子的計畫不是女子足球的計畫男子的計畫的部分他們在執行的過程其實沒有花到私籍大概20億左右對這是另外一個問題那個是另外一個問題我講的是說本來當初設定的目標是要到100名以內那本來應該是10年的計畫可是他把它縮了6年所以在整個執行狀況其實不是那麼的好你先不要跟我講執行狀況我現在講是排名落後是事實嘛對不對"},{"start":20426.866,"end":20455.206,"text":"所以你的意思是排名落後的原因是因為它的預算執行不利是不是?不是,是因為整個計畫理論上當時撰寫的時候應該是10年的計畫所以是計畫寫錯?我們是當時把它壓縮了6年就要執行其實這個部分我們目前正在內部在檢討,應該重新再弄一個就是我講的嘛,排名沒有辦法往前的原因是因為計畫無法執行嘛但是這個計畫對我們的基層是有幫助的所以我們基層現在...有沒有幫助當然都有幫助只是你幫助的多少而已"},{"start":20456.267,"end":20471.023,"text":"當然都有幫助啦你錢花下去多少都有幫助但是你沒有達到你當初的期望嘛所以6年的計畫其實我們從6年之前開始那好那既然你講到那個經費執行的狀況我們可以看一下它執行率確實是很低啦按照你講的因為執行率只有到47.22嘛是"},{"start":20472.705,"end":20474.107,"text":"執行率只有36.49%完善硬體設施只有23.41%為什麼完善硬體設施執行率這麼差?"},{"start":20489.451,"end":20504.139,"text":"包委員,這個計畫它是從各個不同的預算科目去把它聚集成一個計畫,並不是一個特別預算所以它的整個的執行率是拆開來看,但整體來講是47%我現在就去問說為什麼完善,你聽我問好不好組長,不用急著搶話啦,我們可以問問題嗎?"},{"start":20513.928,"end":20541.223,"text":"請問一下為什麼完善硬體設施執行率只有23.41是沒有人要提出計劃申請嗎?還是怎麼樣?是的那你當初訂這樣的一個計劃性的補助用意有達到嗎?沒有達到沒有達到嘛所以這也是財化法重要嘛就是中央收一堆錢訂了一個計劃性補助地方根本都沒來申請嘛你不如把錢給地方地方可以按照自己的優先順序來排自己要做的事情嘛那你現在怎麼去改善呢?"},{"start":20542.045,"end":20543.545,"text":"目前我們還在研擬當中因為是去年才剛結案而已"},{"start":20563.348,"end":20574.859,"text":"去年結案趙同學講你要延續阿我們現在還在進行因為這個部分還需要進一步所以沒有任何的改善的計畫目前我們是將整個通盤因為我們剛剛有看到問題我沒有看到問題嘛我沒有看到問題嘛資訊不利嘛我們也有看到問題排名往後嘛請問怎麼改善"},{"start":20583.226,"end":20605.621,"text":"我先把硬體的土地先找到那個署長是不是你講的都很空洞啊不是啦你講的都很空洞啊你有講嗎你有講跟沒講一樣你怎麼改善嘛你先講我先從設施土地部分先解決所以六年遇到什麼問題要解決就是我們的整個土地我們的場地是不足的後續再到您辦公室說明好嗎你確定他會來嗎"},{"start":20607.159,"end":20626.656,"text":"署長你可以過去出庭吧那官員都這麼傲慢都傲慢成這個樣子問他問題一直插話然後不讓人家問然後繞圈圈都傲慢成這樣他已經答應會到你辦公室什麼時候不是你今天你這個問題你說你要改善但是講不出個所以然出來我剛剛已經回答你就說什麼土地問題解決這個問題就解決了嗎"},{"start":20630.579,"end":20631.119,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的質詢"},{"start":20665.88,"end":20671.303,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請政部長好有請部長辛苦了"},{"start":20675.479,"end":20696.669,"text":"部長各位列席的各位首長還有所有的校長大家午安委員午安部長我想兩個問題跟部長您就教第一個就是陽大復醫的部分第二個問題是宜蘭小巨蛋那針對宜蘭的醫療資源大家都一直在期盼就是能夠盡快來提升"},{"start":20697.429,"end":20725.534,"text":"那我們也在3月26號今年的3月16號看到行政院正式核定59.21億的這個二期工程那現在也都在進行當中在上週六我們卓院長也親自到陽大婦醫去視察那相關的工程進度應該都在掌握之中那我想就叫我們部長就是針對我們二期工程完成之後我們大家所期待的能夠有醫學"},{"start":20727.61,"end":20754.58,"text":"等級的這種醫療資源有沒有辦法來達成?我想這個是我們要共同努力的目前以這個陽明附設陽交附設醫院這個預計完成的期程是116年的4月那後續的醫學中心的這種等級有沒有辦法來達成?"},{"start":20757.425,"end":20785.208,"text":"我們會來協助這個陽明交通大學來努力好那我想這個部分因為是大家所期待也是當初去要求我們這個教育部跟相關單位能夠對於陽明交通大學附設醫院相關設備硬體設備來做提升最終的目標當然是希望能夠有醫學等級的這種教學大樓那我也期待能夠在部長您的任內能夠來完成"},{"start":20786.169,"end":20808.929,"text":"那另外就是在護理人員方面為什麼在我們109年到113年我們這個揚大的醫院護理人員的離職率會這麼高到底是什麼原因是沒辦法留住人才109到113我們的離職率為什麼這麼高"},{"start":20814.491,"end":20839.999,"text":"護理人員為什麼理智力這麼高其實我們跟委員報告我們已經在去年也幫護理人員調了三次薪然後也符合了教育部要求我們達到那個急性病房的這個護理人員的基本薪資其實我們在教育部的醫院都已經達到是薪資的問題嗎薪資跟所有環境的問題還是護病比的問題"},{"start":20841.423,"end":20866.335,"text":"護病比在我們小一班跟大一班還差衛護部的那個標準還差一點點我們也在努力當中跟委員幫忙那我們對於我們職場的條件也都做大幅度的修正那最近我們也開了醫院的那個托嬰中心也是那個行政院的幫忙也希望能夠解決這些護理人員跟醫事人員的這些育嬰的問題應該是要"},{"start":20868.669,"end":20887.219,"text":"提高相關的誘因啦那對於這個我們護理人員的辛苦我那天有提出對於他們的薪資我們應該再重新調整那對於這個那天我有提到這個更新護專跟這個聖母護專的部分有沒有機會我們來升格"},{"start":20888.561,"end":20901.999,"text":"兩所學校因為少子化兩所學校都在徵這個學生那為什麼不從這兩所學校去單獨升格一所學校讓未來我們在地的這些學子可以留在我們在地來服務有沒有可能"},{"start":20903.211,"end":20921.078,"text":"我們會努力研議也謝謝委員當天也有在現場您的這個提議我們都有聽到那回去護理學院當然會就跟這兩家專科學校來接觸不過有一些源而管制的問題尤其這個在教育部是跨高教跟技職兩個師所以我們會積極來研議"},{"start":20923.979,"end":20942.533,"text":"那校長這部分一個月內可不可以含附那個我辦公室能不能做我想一個月內應該會有一個初步的方向初步的溝通跟一個協調啦看有沒有機會好不好好那謝謝那個院長跟謝謝校長"},{"start":20943.374,"end":20970.868,"text":"那對於這個宜蘭小巨蛋的部分我想請教我們部長宜蘭是一個多雨的城市一年曾經都下超過200天以上的這種這種雨那宜蘭縣有超過將近45萬的人口數經常要舉辦這種大型的賽事或是在訓練的過程還是舉辦一些活動的時候沒有一個標準的一種大型的這種室內空間那從"},{"start":20972.449,"end":20980.817,"text":"今年上任之後我就一直積極的在跟我們教育部來協調在宜蘭縣是不是可以有機會來爭取一個小巨蛋"},{"start":20982.199,"end":21005.2,"text":"我想以我們過去地方的這個小巨蛋這個需求事實上大概都是採用這個BOT那我們體育署也跟宜蘭縣政府有討論過這樣的一個想法那目前宜蘭縣政府倒還沒有一個具體的一些回應那我上次跟我們部內討論的時候"},{"start":21007.122,"end":21029.47,"text":"那個署長也是有同意就是要跟縣政府去協調都沒有進度嗎?其實我這邊報委員我其實這邊一直跟宜蘭的教育處檢處長一直保持聯繫喔那他們有一個替代的方案是說如果為了演唱會是不是在田徑場做一個頂棚的一個延伸但是後來他們案子送來之後發現其實他不只遮雨沒辦法遮好而且還"},{"start":21030.05,"end":21052.804,"text":"增加1000個座位而已其實沒有辦法符合委員所謂的演唱會的需求所以這案子我們把它退回去但是在小巨蛋的部分很抱歉委員因為這部分我們現在是在不管台北、台中、台南巨蛋的一些規劃其實都是採取BOT的方式來進行所以這部分也請委員見諒我們目前這部分宜蘭現在我們這邊還沒有去提出一個比較合適的方案來進行"},{"start":21053.484,"end":21073.61,"text":"我希望我們教育部能夠再跟縣政府適當的溝通看看看縣政府的態度怎麼樣那不管是BOT還是用什麼方式只要能夠爭取我們也可以向企業來招手請他們來協助看能不能盡快來完成這個目標好不好好以上謝謝委員"},{"start":21077.54,"end":21098.38,"text":"謝謝陳俊宇委員的質詢羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員何新淳、何新淳、何新淳委員賴世寶、賴世寶、賴世寶委員林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員鄭振乾、鄭振乾、鄭振乾委員翁曉琳、翁曉琳、翁曉琳委員邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員"},{"start":21100.662,"end":21118.74,"text":"今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另有翁曉琳、柯智恩、邱志偉和辛淳委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做以下決議第一報告及詢答完畢第二委員所提的書面質詢或相關資料"},{"start":21119.881,"end":21141.469,"text":"列入記錄並刊登公報：三、對委員質詢要求提供相關資料未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆第四、一、四年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案教育部主管47所國立大學院校校務基金預算案"},{"start":21142.709,"end":21164.174,"text":"校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基金、學產基金運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金預算案、行政院法人"},{"start":21165.604,"end":21190.935,"text":"國家運動訓練中心預算案行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案相關提案請於11月20日下午2點前提出令定期繼續審查報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位校長還有教育部的代表大家辛苦了謝謝謝謝明年見"}]}},{"id":"156965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b1a12e2648bfc61c6f5866fb8dd1f931552a6fe36446873e66a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"14:15:48 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PAO CANADA 字幕組"},{"start":1867.128,"end":1874.112,"text":"中央銀行股息紅利繳固部分．二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案．行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳固部分．二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案．"},{"start":1895.043,"end":1904.468,"text":"二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠。宣導完畢。好,謝謝。我們現在先介紹在場的委員。林登虎委員。好,謝謝。是,謝謝喔。那我們再介紹議會的官員。中央銀行楊金龍總裁。"},{"start":1926.598,"end":1945.842,"text":"我們的業務局潘局長花型局我們的鄧局長外匯局我們蔡局長國庫局我們賀局長金融業務檢察處我們的潘處長經濟研究處吳處長秘書處梁處長會計處郭處長"},{"start":1957.003,"end":1968.607,"text":"資訊處李處長人事室張主任華盧室吳主任中央印製廠林總經理團銀號中央造幣廠葉廠長接著我們介紹財政部莊部長"},{"start":1981.425,"end":1983.246,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主任委員彭主委國際業務處賴處長銀行局莊局長"},{"start":2009.861,"end":2033.924,"text":"政見期貨局張局長保險局王局長檢察局童局長臺灣政見交易所我們的林修敏林董事長李總經理歡迎那我們櫃買中心我們簡立中董事長"},{"start":2036.877,"end":2041.822,"text":"行政院主計處我們主計總處公務預算處專門委員李專門委員還基金預算處黃專門委員"},{"start":2055.802,"end":2056.142,"text":"中央銀行"},{"start":2083.374,"end":2112.734,"text":"股息、紅利、腳庫的部分：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案護屬單位預算營業部門：營業部：部分有關中央銀行含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠的預算案：那預算的部分我們就是請答：那我們現在先請中央銀行楊總裁進行專題及預算案的內容報告"},{"start":2124.543,"end":2131.909,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生、大家早。"},{"start":2133.303,"end":2155.99,"text":"今天曾邀來貴委員會報告本行的部分總共有三個部分第一個部分是美國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策專題報告第二部分是114年度中央政府總預算行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳戶部分"},{"start":2156.61,"end":2164,"text":"第三部分是114年度中央銀行含中央印製造幣廠、中央印製廠業務計畫及營業預算報告第一部分專題報告"},{"start":2174.084,"end":2187.697,"text":"我們的第一部分是回顧川普總統首次任期之貿易政策及其對台灣之影響那麼這個報告都有事先給各位委員所以請參考那請翻開第4頁"},{"start":2192.495,"end":2217.657,"text":"2018年以來美中爭端持續提高各國貿易成本不利全球經貿發展為政府順勢推動投資台灣三大方案具成效廠商擴大在台投資使得轉單效應底下的部分全球貿易需求下降的衝擊此外COVID-19疫情帶來遠距商機以及AI等新興科技應用熱絡"},{"start":2218.658,"end":2231.828,"text":"高科技業者持續在臺擴展高階製程及增產高負價價值產品使得臺灣整體外貿表現及經濟成長及物價的控制都優於亞洲鄰國"},{"start":2237.625,"end":2264.643,"text":"第六、另外2018年6月以來卦吾山說美中貿易衝突升溫以及朱多飛預期事件接連發生迄今新台幣表現相當穩定,臺股亦表現亮麗這個請各位參考第二部分八美國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策"},{"start":2266.164,"end":2280.93,"text":"一、美中競爭態勢不變川普新貿易政策恐擴大台灣全球貿易衝突與科技競爭由於關稅政策外溢的影響最大"},{"start":2283.501,"end":2302.656,"text":"請關開第10頁第一是國際貿易基金IMF他的一個預測我們可以看到就是說如果說美國對包含中國大陸在內的所有貿易對手國可增10%的關稅的話那麼"},{"start":2306.999,"end":2318.845,"text":"這個整個全球的經濟的影響在第一年2025年它會下降0.3%2026年是負的0.5%2027年是負的0.6%那同時美國華府的那個PIE它也有估測如果說對中國大陸加徵60%的關稅的話那對整個中國大陸的影響跟美國的影響這個請各位參考"},{"start":2335.634,"end":2361.24,"text":"第11月隨市場對川普新政策的預期：近期全球金融市場大幅的波動請各位參考特別是12月的表3跟表4對我們的匯率跟我們的股市的影響三、美國未來採行新貿易政策可能透過多重管道來影響台灣的經濟金融前景"},{"start":2362.801,"end":2379.018,"text":"第一個是全球經濟成長動能會趨緩、全球通膨趨深的影響第二個是中國大陸經濟動能的弱化的影響還有第三是美國貨幣政策不確定性的影響請翻開第14頁"},{"start":2381.781,"end":2398.259,"text":"那麼四、美國新貿易政策的左向將影響台灣經濟成長動能本行將持續關注美國重大政策的施行足跡來調整經濟成長與同盤展望並採取妥適的貨幣政策來因應第15頁五、"},{"start":2399.5,"end":2422.222,"text":"美中貿易爭端以後臺灣對美國的貿易順差大幅擴增就臺灣兩項貿易指標已觸及美國財政部的匯率政策報告檢視標準的因應這一個在17月這邊我們在掛無二我們有本行對美國匯率政策報告的一個對策請各位參考第18月6"},{"start":2423.263,"end":2450.336,"text":"美國新貿易政策具高度不確定性可能加劇國內金融市場的波動本行會妥適採行金融市場穩定措施來維持國內的匯市的穩定第二個部分是我們114年度中央政府總預算案行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳戶的部分本行在114年度預算繳交國庫關係紅利"},{"start":2452.017,"end":2472.063,"text":"全數列為行政院歲入預算即新台幣兩千億兩千九百一四萬兩千元較一百一十三年度預算繳戶數增加兩百零八萬兩千元請翻開二十頁第三個部分是一百一十四年度中央銀行業務計劃及營業預算報告有關我們的業務的計劃的重點請各位參考"},{"start":2481.964,"end":2483.927,"text":"二、23月3、114年度營業預算編列的情形．請各位寬開25頁二、營業收支及營餘"},{"start":2493.817,"end":2502.539,"text":"一、營業總收入本行含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠114年度預算營業總收入為新台幣4261億7779萬6千元較上年度預算數增加136億6673萬1千元增加率為3.31%"},{"start":2515.962,"end":2525.284,"text":"瓜吳二、營業總支出本行含中央造幣廠跟硬市場114年度預算營業總支出為新台幣2,508億5,779萬4千元較上年度總預算數增加136億5,219萬1千元增加率為5.76%年度營餘瓜吳三"},{"start":2542.947,"end":2549.254,"text":"以上營業總收入高抵以後114年度預算營業為新台幣1753億2000元除提存法定公積350億9086萬元以外"},{"start":2560.645,"end":2567.447,"text":"於數年同以前年度累計營餘598億元共計2千億2914萬2千元稀數繳交國庫關係紅利以上報告敬請各位委員會室指教謝謝好謝謝楊總裁接著我們請財政部財政部部長報告"},{"start":2588.686,"end":2598.874,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會安排就美國新任總統的貿易政策對台經濟以及金融穩定的可能影響與對策進行專題報告以及檢要報告如下進行指教"},{"start":2604.218,"end":2628.925,"text":"一、美國新任總統選舉的主張主要還是要看具體政策的方向評估對我國經濟和金融的影響那新任總統在選舉期間所提出的課徵基本關稅以及進一步提高不公平貿易國家的關稅稅率等需視其在2025年的1月20日就職後相關經貿政策如何落實以及推動的期程而且"},{"start":2629.665,"end":2646.586,"text":"我本部也會持續的關注美國最新情勢的進展並事實評估對我國經濟以及金融影響採取因應的措施近年在全球供應鏈的重整、台商回流以及人工智慧應用商機的新起向我國外貿市場結構已經有所轉變"},{"start":2648.909,"end":2673.771,"text":"對美國出口占總出口的比重持續升高對中國大陸以及香港則呈現下滑國內主要廠商也積極的對外投資擴大供應鏈的涵蓋面提高應對地緣政治情勢變化的彈性以及空間第二個我們會持續推動相關的措施來促進我國經濟穩定的成長我國是一個出口導向的國家深受全球經濟情勢變動的影響"},{"start":2676.873,"end":2682.416,"text":"為了促進經濟穩定成長提升企業的競爭力並且優化經貿環境本部會持續推動相關的措施如下首先是在提供企業租稅優惠的方面為了優化產業的結構以及協助企業升級轉型本部與目的事業主管機關在產業創新條例等法規就資金面、人才面以及技術面"},{"start":2700.447,"end":2717.457,"text":"提供多項的功能別租稅優惠比如說研發支出的投資抵減為分配盈餘進行實質投資免加增5%的銀索稅另外提供智慧機械還有5G系統還有資通安全投資的抵減前瞻創新研發的投資抵減以及先進製程設備投資抵減租稅的優惠"},{"start":2724.201,"end":2751.579,"text":"目的都是在強化我國關鍵的產業核心地位那麼提升我國的產業競爭的優勢第二個在引導資金投入公共建設方面行政院成立了院級跨部會投資建設推動平臺透過促餐的機制以創新促餐提案方式來積極引導資金投入我們的公共建設讓資金運用更具有彈性那公共建設的推動更為快速來續擊我國經濟成長的能量"},{"start":2755.302,"end":2767.517,"text":"第三、我們在持續推動洽簽臺美避免雙重課稅協定方面：臺美簽署避免雙重課稅協定：可以降低雙方企業在對方國從事經貿活動的營業成本：創造更多的投資以及貿易的機會"},{"start":2772.142,"end":2789.45,"text":"那麼雙方財政部將於近期就台美租稅協定的相關議題展開討論以確認互惠減免稅的待遇那本部和外交部等會持續和美國行政部門以及國會合作解決台美雙重課稅問題第四個在提供優質通關環境方面我們推動海關數位轉型及規劃新一代的通關系統服務架構來建構一個"},{"start":2799.715,"end":2821.494,"text":"的通關環境提供出口貨物便捷通關服務降低貿易成本以利跨國貿易的發展強化我國經貿的競爭力第五個在強化公股金融機構的營運任性方面面對國際金融市場不確定性還有地緣政治的風險本部會督導公股金融事業拓展"},{"start":2821.834,"end":2839.282,"text":"和新業務的動能支持實體經濟發展的資金需求優化多元獲利的引擎並落實風險控管以強化營運的韌性以及提升經營的中效本部將會持續的關注美國經貿政策的動向以及全球經濟趨勢的變化"},{"start":2841.743,"end":2861.999,"text":"審慎的評估對美國經濟以及金融的影響事實和經濟部國家發展委員會等相關部會提出因應的措施來促進國家經濟以及金融穩定的發展以上敬請各位委員會與指教謝謝好謝謝謝謝莊部長接著我們請金管會彭主委進行專題報告"},{"start":2868.038,"end":2883.059,"text":"主席、各位委員、媒體先敬大家早陳貴文會邀請今晚會就美國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策進行專題報告美國新總統將於明年1月20日宣誓就職"},{"start":2884.441,"end":2902.888,"text":"中官本次的競選政見主張美國優先,強調保護美國製造業預計將加徵關稅並吸引製造業及資金回流美國然各項政策的落實情形仍有待持續的關注依華爾街日報及金融時報的分析美國的減稅政策將有助於美國經濟成長與美國股市"},{"start":2905.669,"end":2919.88,"text":"而主張對貿易夥伴普遍徵收10%關稅．及對中國大陸課徵60%關稅．雖可以推升美國經濟成長但可能促使通膨升溫．預期美國可能維持高利率．美元亦可能走強"},{"start":2921.121,"end":2938.751,"text":"二、三、我國資本市場的現況與因應：台股自而棄11月12日止上漲28.17,漲幅均高於亞洲各股市：台股表現相對穩健,成交亦持續活絡：台股日均量為5576億與112年同期相較,成長55.95%本益比為22.27,現金殖利率為2.38%"},{"start":2949.878,"end":2966.072,"text":"台灣資本市場與國際連結度日增美國新政策可能造成台股短期的震盪但中長期台股表現仍將回歸基本面我國上市櫃公司截至10月底累積營收35兆較去年同期成長11.92顯見我國產業具有競爭力及韌性"},{"start":2971.705,"end":2996.407,"text":"為因應美國產業政策的變動近年來尚是為公司以採行產地移轉、調整海外佈局以降低對公司營運之影響此外金管會將密切掌握國際金融市場發展狀況及重大金融事件金管會將適時召集證交所等周邊單位召開股期式會議研商與必要時採取相對穩定股期式措施"},{"start":2997.817,"end":3019.163,"text":"銀行業部分：我國銀行業目前資本氏族利益流動性良好：預放比率僅0.15%：背底呆帳覆蓋率高達896%：截至本年第二季平均資本氏族利益達14.79%：具備良好風險承受能力：目前國營在美國設有三家子公司"},{"start":3022.385,"end":3048.498,"text":"有3家子銀行、1家子公司、25家分行及3家辦事處國營對美國的總曝險為3.67兆元美國政府若擴大減稅政策短期將增加全球及企業海外台商赴美投資意願銀行業者可適時擇優拓展業務而加徵關稅可能驅動台商調整全球投資佈局銀行業可協助客戶調整佈局但銀行業需面臨通膨期高利率期間更久之挑戰"},{"start":3050.171,"end":3065.818,"text":"金管會將適時地管控國內金融業者以穩定金融市場加強風險管理工作強化韌性並隨時與相關部會密切聯繫並要求銀行總行由專責單位負責海外分支機構之整體營運管理建立適當風險慰納及風險辨識機制納入內控內基制度落實執行強化監督與管理"},{"start":3071.201,"end":3075.945,"text":"保險業部分保險業稅前於截至9月底為3161億元受險業較去年同期成長68.2%產險則為成長78.2整體而言整個產業具有相當金融韌性6月底我國受險業平均的資本失足率為318%產險業為481%淨值比受險為7.97%產險業為27.77%"},{"start":3100.8,"end":3129.07,"text":"我國保險業投資雖以債券為主但多以持有到期採攤消耗成本評價較不受利率變動評價的影響且升息有助於受險新資金資投資獲益但美國政府公債發行增加可能造成整體債券市場殖利率上升引發債券價格下跌如美元而維持強勢對我國受險業雖然有利但可能促使外匯避險成本提高"},{"start":3130.404,"end":3150.174,"text":"保險法目前已就保險業從事國外投資,定有明確之規定。經管會將定期匯總國外投資之情形進行動態監理及採行事實之相關措施。美元升值雖然促使避險成本提高﹐但配合剛實施的外匯價格準備金制度﹐可以讓受險業更有彈性的避險方式。"},{"start":3151.263,"end":3180.024,"text":"金管會將持續注意美國新政策對金融市場的影響．積極推動資本市場的發展與深化市場的發展與創新我國為IOSCO以及IIS正式會員與巴塞爾銀行監理委員會也密切聯繫未來將持續加強跨境金融監理合作維護金融市場穩定並持續與財政部、中央銀行及相關部會聯繫適時採取因應措施共同合作維持金融穩定與秩序以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3181.351,"end":3201.522,"text":"好,謝謝彭主委,我們再補充介紹那個現場我們的吳秉瑞委員好,我們現在開始進入詢答,先做以下的宣告每一位出席的委員花言的時間是8分鐘,必要的時候得延長2分鐘每一位列席的委員花言的時間是5分鐘"},{"start":3204.312,"end":3224.41,"text":"近近上午10點截止花園的登記現在依序登記的順序請登記第一位林德虎委員質詢謝謝,謝謝主席是不是請楊總裁好,請楊總裁"},{"start":3236.337,"end":3252.133,"text":"總裁您好我想美國大選結束那川普大選總統後的整個世界的局勢尤其是美中台三方的關係是不是會發生有別於拜登在任時的狀態會不會對台灣的整個經濟金融有影響"},{"start":3255.777,"end":3274.299,"text":"我想有幾個問題來請教總裁美國大選川普勝選那參眾兩院的席次啊極有可能是共和黨完全執政那我請問你認為美台之間的整個財經政策會不會有所變化"},{"start":3277.016,"end":3289.219,"text":"我想就是川普的一個經濟政策還有就是拜登的他們是不太一樣的因為川普都是強調美國優先不過台灣在整個的我們一直都認為就是說美國兩黨現在對台灣對中國大陸的態度都是一致的"},{"start":3304.093,"end":3315.407,"text":"那對台灣當然稍微有一點不一樣不過我個人也覺得差異不會是非常大所以說你認為變化不大是嗎是應該是那要是有變化的話你認為對我們會有什麼衝擊我想這個"},{"start":3323.075,"end":3338.969,"text":"我只能就經濟方面、金融方面來講那至於就是說國防外交這個不是我對啦當然不是啦主要是金融那經濟、金融方面剛剛我們的報告也有講到就是說對全球來講呢它會有衝擊所以說你認為"},{"start":3341.952,"end":3352.684,"text":"這個對我們來講那現在來我所以呢我們在這個來我們齁我們在第一部分我們這個報告的第一部分就講到齁就是說美中貿易衝突之後我們台灣的一個情況"},{"start":3356.328,"end":3362.853,"text":"那我們發現事實上我們台灣反而當然也不是說純粹是美中貿易衝突啦中間還有就是那個COVID-19、俄烏戰爭這些事件的一個影響不過呢我們的第一部分的分析呢就要告訴大家就是說事實上呢美中貿易衝突之後啊台灣反而是好的我們的經濟成長我們的物價的控制還有就是我們的貿易都表現得非常的好所以說你認為說"},{"start":3385.334,"end":3393.618,"text":"一樣應該是這個變化不大衝擊不大所以呢我們在後面我們也分析嘛就是說他對全球的影響對中國大陸影響美國那個貨幣政策的影響這些呢都是要觀察但是呢我們也不能說"},{"start":3401.261,"end":3408.191,"text":"第一部分美中貿易衝突的第一個part就是說我們台灣是很好但是我們也沒有說說我們的第二部分呢就是川普的2.0呢就我們也是會跟以前一樣我們也沒有這麼說只是說那個是做參考"},{"start":3417.765,"end":3433.144,"text":"不過呢後面的這個呢我們就必須要非常小心包括我們的貨幣政策要怎麼來因應對於就是說這個匯率報告我們要怎麼來因應還有就是說我們在外匯市場的外匯政策我們要怎麼來因應我們都有在報告裡面都有詳細的說明"},{"start":3434.065,"end":3440.073,"text":"去年2023年國際經濟與金融趨勢論壇你曾表示說美中爭端使台灣對美國貿易順差擴大台灣應持續關注相關發展並避免成為美國貿易制裁的對象"},{"start":3453.29,"end":3481.749,"text":"那如果以川普在美國大選時他的宣誓高關稅的政見那我請問總裁川普的立場會不會增加台灣被美國制裁的機率呢我個人覺得就是說我們的晶片就是說我們的這個資通訊的這個產品它是很特殊的它是一個戰略的物資"},{"start":3482.849,"end":3508.261,"text":"那這個呢是就是說如果說從美台的之間的一個貿易來看的話呢事實上呢是我們我們這兩個國家的一個合作呢是兩益的是是是是很好的因為說實在的他是他是設計我們是製造而且我們的這個製造呢又是非常先非常先進的是他需要我們的產品"},{"start":3509.221,"end":3513.082,"text":"但是他講話不是這樣講啊他認為說我們是偷的啊這個可能是他的一個策略啦萬一台灣被制裁政府跟民間你認為我們應該怎麼去應付我想要說制裁我們也不至於吧不至於我們跟美國財政部的一個談判的諮商"},{"start":3535.527,"end":3546.733,"text":"事實上他們也了解我們台灣對它的順差這個是因為是美國需要的不是因為就是說我們的價格很低不是因為這個晶片這個資通訊它這個是一個戰略的物資"},{"start":3553.198,"end":3568.212,"text":"總裁美國大選期間川普曾經提出對盟友和競爭對手課徵高關稅昨天本席也詢問過財政部莊部長有沒有評估過川普高關稅的政策對國內的影響"},{"start":3570.194,"end":3586.942,"text":"那莊部長這個說會密切觀察那我請問總裁萬一川普鐵了心竹取高關稅的高牆你認為對全世界有什麼影響我想這個所以我覺得那個莊部長他講的沒有錯因為基本上就是說"},{"start":3595.396,"end":3607.244,"text":"美國的他這個川普他要他要就任他的這個他的政見的實施的時點這是第一個他的時點是是什麼時候他的規模是什麼時候規模有多大到目前為止都不曉得"},{"start":3612.568,"end":3612.608,"text":"但是齁"},{"start":3633.114,"end":3652.962,"text":"但是我們每季都是會更新它總裁因為政府應該要未來要如何去因應未雨綢繆而且未來要怎麼去協助我們國內產業跟民生經濟我認為那是政府的責任應該你要讓很多企業界瞭解因為它的變數"},{"start":3654.342,"end":3680.709,"text":"真的是不可預測總裁媒體報導針對美國大選後的局勢有學者研判川普會追求公平貿易但公平標準是由美國來定義以下有幾個問題我來請教總裁按照財政部9月出口的統計5乘5以上國內出口佔比都是在美國跟中國兩國"},{"start":3682.91,"end":3705.206,"text":"學者看法表示川普式的公平貿易我請問總裁你認為會不會再度催化美中貿易戰對台灣的負面衝擊你認為又有哪些我跟委員報告就是說看起來當然這個就是說我們從媒體看的我也不是這一方面的專家"},{"start":3706.167,"end":3719.582,"text":"不過我個人的看法是確實你看看就是說他的國務卿他是一個鷹派的對中國大陸他是一個鷹派的所以就是說他會延續他的第一任的時候對中國的一個貿易政策"},{"start":3721.204,"end":3741.566,"text":"就誠如我剛剛所說的就是說我們的第一個part我們的第一個part就是說美中貿易衝突事實上之後的一個發展好像我們台灣也沒有受到損失我們反而是好像是好像是發展得不錯在經濟的成長在出口在通膨方面我們都控制得很好"},{"start":3741.926,"end":3768.415,"text":"那個總裁事實上本席認為說學者對川普未來貿易政策的看法或許已經是進行式因為川普的高關稅政策也呼應張忠謀說全球化已死的看法兩年來張忠謀一再重申全球化已死你曾說未必如此並且說全球化只是內容改變而廠商"},{"start":3771.528,"end":3793.053,"text":"這個應變會比外界想像的更有彈性那我請問總裁兩年來全球化有哪些改變所謂廠商的生存彈性有哪些正面跟負面的影響我想就是說當然就是說貿易我以前也說過就是說全球化它是碎片化的"},{"start":3793.473,"end":3799.979,"text":"但是呢,我們的廠商呢,他也非常靈活你看看齁,你看看我們齁,就是說有的回來投資,有的到東南亞去所以呢,他,我總覺得啦,我總覺得啦,廠商他的一個應變能力,比我,比我,當然比我啦因為我們都是中小企業比較多啦是是,他的應變的能力是很好的"},{"start":3818.094,"end":3836.915,"text":"但是就正如剛剛委員在說的政府也要協助他對這個Information美國的一個政策會怎麼樣的話他我們的官方會比較先知道那你認為所以就是說企業、產業跟政府必須要密切的配合那個總裁"},{"start":3837.876,"end":3862.694,"text":"物價波動變大新資調整趕不上物價節節的高升會不會變成未來的常態好像最近的報導是說我們的實質新資已經成長了而且是4年之內最大的所以現在也就是說物價是慢慢在下來那我們的出口我們的製造還是一樣的是很暢旺的所以新資的成長現在已經蓋過了通膨"},{"start":3867.059,"end":3891.672,"text":"因為那個川普主張如果要吸引企業回流美國就必須對美國所有進口品加徵關稅再搭配國內減稅的政策那我請問總裁近年來台灣對美國出口是順差而且持續的增長那高關稅政策對台灣出口美國到底有哪些衝擊有沒有會引發整個全球關稅這個"},{"start":3895.898,"end":3913.777,"text":"關稅的壁壘的這些的機率會不會如果說就台灣的產品因為我剛剛也講了台灣的產品出去的都戰略就是資通訊資通訊這個剛好是美國最需要的所以這個是誰來負擔這個關稅是誰的負擔現在都還不曉得"},{"start":3918.309,"end":3941.462,"text":"最後你再請教一個問題對全球在地化你有什麼看法如果全球在地化成為常態那你認為廠商在國內和國外生存的經營應該有哪些的彈性在地化我總覺得那個台商回台投資對台灣都很好啊對不對但是有一部分他還是會到其他的地方去那這個是對的"},{"start":3943.002,"end":3944.763,"text":"主席麻煩請央行楊總裁好請楊總裁"},{"start":3977.119,"end":4003.257,"text":"吳偉銀早總裁早跟你請教幾個問題啦是所以因為川普的當選美國總統所以引發了很多的這個觀點的改變其實剛剛提到張宗謀先生講到說幾年前講到全球化已死他其實是在我個人的觀點認為他是在談供應鏈重組的問題因為現在地緣政治的衝突那像俄國"},{"start":4004.378,"end":4023.572,"text":"中共、北韓、伊朗這些邪惡的流氓國家的結合使得全球化必須要面臨調整啊不然的話如果他這樣耍流氓然後不遵守這個世界貿易的規範然後你還在無限制的全球化的話那是不是自己找自己的苦把這個"},{"start":4025.626,"end":4046.934,"text":"把人家坐牆然後來找自己很麻煩所以如果供應鏈的重組另外一個角度來講就是你要站在哪一隊的問題站隊問題那川普當選的時候就是很明顯川普現在用的內閣現在據爆派或是已經證實的人全部都是鷹派他最大的目的就是要對付中共嘛"},{"start":4047.816,"end":4055.965,"text":"就看得出來這些人對中共的過去的這些惡行惡狀絕對是深惡痛絕已經要給他銀頭痛擊其實所謂的關稅60%關稅60%就是不跟你做生意啦關稅60%當然要有競爭力"},{"start":4063.021,"end":4090.297,"text":"除非他就是席產地或是就所謂的繞道那台灣絕對要避免成為中國產品繞道的這個路徑否則為了要制裁這個流氓國家不照國際貿易的慣例來的話到時候連台灣都會被他拉下去最近台積電不就發生了這個問題嗎假造一個第三個沒有受到制裁的公司來台灣買晶片然後去給這個華為用"},{"start":4092.219,"end":4116.271,"text":"被美國的商務部通知台積電這也是引起非常大的風波所以台灣如何將來因為供應鏈重組那全世界的戰隊問題如何避免變成中國產品繞道或是利用這些所謂第三地貿易來躲避美國制裁的這樣的事情是必須要小心跟謹慎的"},{"start":4117.952,"end":4136.71,"text":"那至於你剛剛講到說那因為台灣的產品有非常多嘛對現在對外輸出的大眾是自通訊產品就所謂這些晶片晶圓這些東西這些東西因為是不可或缺的那台積電在尖端的最尖端的這個晶片上市佔率92%"},{"start":4138.171,"end":4151.208,"text":"那其實他的大客戶都是美國人啊MVDO啊蘋果啊高通啊他們都是委託台積電製造那台積電現在當然已經開始有投資美國亞內沙拉已經有機場但是將來他的生產"},{"start":4154.511,"end":4170.074,"text":"是不是能夠完全符合他有講說兩奈米以下的最高端的也是要在台灣生產所以如果是不可或缺的時候你如果加徵10到20%的關稅那就是買方負擔啊因為這是賣方市場嘛"},{"start":4171.536,"end":4196.777,"text":"那如果是賣方市場的時候變買方負擔反而變成美國他會去考慮這個東西我覺得美國當然在選舉的時候你只能講一些最整體的策略跟戰略你不可能可以講到這麼細的東西但是執行的時候他還是會根據一個一個不同的狀況來做但是畢竟台灣對美國的出口越來越多也不全然全都是直通訊產品"},{"start":4198.658,"end":4225.098,"text":"最近台灣對美國的粗糙的這個規模現在已經到了什麼樣的狀況呢?我們的預測就是說到目前我們如果說到今年的話我們順差可能500多億粗糙是500多億美金對美國其實粗糙金額這麼大本身就是公平交易公平貿易的一個問題你記不記得在早年的時候幾十年前"},{"start":4226.139,"end":4242.239,"text":"也是因為台灣的這些紡織品這些大量賣到美國去所以使得我們的順差非常的大那當時都有組織對美的採購團還要每一年到美國的這個農村或是其他的州去買他們的一些產品"},{"start":4243.522,"end":4259.598,"text":"事實上川普在幾年前在任的最後兩年他還要求美國要求中國要去美國採購阿那中國當時還答應了兩千億美金結果最後只有採購七百多看川普沒有做了阿就草草收場就跳票了嘛"},{"start":4260.694,"end":4280.643,"text":"有人說川普總統他是商人性格商人性格重視承諾重視信用因為沒有信就沒有辦法從事商業行為嘛所以你想想看如果我們台灣對美國的順差出鈔金額是500多億美金的時候你認為應該用什麼方法能夠來彌補來處理這一段呢"},{"start":4285.26,"end":4300.25,"text":"因為我們一直給人家每一年每一年這麼多的順差在舊公平貿易來講的話這也是一個缺憾我們在報告裡面也有講到就是說政府的一個採購那這個是第一個那當然現在就是說譬如說包括"},{"start":4300.95,"end":4315.623,"text":"台積電到美國去投資這個也是平衡兩邊的一個貿易施衡的一個方法所以投資到美國去投資除了台積電以外其他的可能也可以去投資"},{"start":4317.357,"end":4343.036,"text":"因為基本上呢我們也都知道就是說這種你認為台灣這些廠商去美國投資之後會減少我們這個貿易之間的這個順差嗎因為基本上他如果說在那邊製造也本來是在台灣這邊就不用從台灣去了對就不用到台灣去所以順差會減少但是問題是這畢竟是比較長期的那短期的我們每一年順差500多億美金因為川普是"},{"start":4343.977,"end":4345.518,"text":"我們對美國的順差也是就是說最近幾年就是慢慢增加的很大這是第一個"},{"start":4365.234,"end":4370.619,"text":"第二個呢我們的經常帳的順差就是說佔GDP的比重也蠻高的在我們的報告裡面也有講到13%、14%這個要避免被列為匯率操縱國的難題所以這個呢我們每年基本上我們每年大概有兩次會跟美國磋商中央銀行那其他部會有沒有我不曉得"},{"start":4391.678,"end":4410.223,"text":"不過呢我們在這個諮商的過程當中呢我們也會讓他了解到就是說對我們對美國的順差呢這個說實在的好像是他需要的那這個就是說他也會了解那我們的經濟我們的經常這樣子順差這個是一個結構性的一個問題"},{"start":4411.696,"end":4439.134,"text":"總裁我在這邊建議啦因為你在政府中間你有份量嘛開會的時候可以講講話我們應該要操大對美國的採購啦這也是一個平衡貿易的一個方法嘛另外一點譬如說我們最近當然是報宅的不知道有沒有要向美國採購武器這也是平衡貿易的一個方法嘛所以我覺得當然我不是只光指武器啦我們台灣如果一樣可以買東西盡量要跟美國買啦這個歐盟的"},{"start":4441.957,"end":4455.832,"text":"倫茲主席已經講了阿美國有乾淨的能源阿價格要比俄羅斯低阿我們應該要跟美國買天然氣阿他跟歐盟公開這樣講其實也是一種平衡貿易啦你知道嗎因為川普當選之後他非常強調這個全世界都知道阿"},{"start":4456.533,"end":4456.673,"text":"對啦 當然啦"},{"start":4472.554,"end":4475.396,"text":"二、審查中華民國114年度中華民國114年度中華民國114年度中華民國114年度中華民國114年度"},{"start":4490.171,"end":4497.476,"text":"有學者說美國要對中國課政60%的報復關稅嘛那就有人在計算說那如果這樣啊因為要關稅這麼高那中國的產品要怎麼辦呢他只能夠貶值來因應比如說要貶值到8塊多甚至最重的時候要貶值到10塊多那這個方案當然現在大家都在談那因為川普是1月20號才上台嘛所以現在"},{"start":4515.327,"end":4544.406,"text":"一個多月之間有一個預備的期間如果人民幣這麼巨幅的貶值那台灣應該要有因應喔這個是大事喔這個就匯率各種方面是大事喔那總裁你的看法怎麼樣沒有錯啦委員講的分析得很好就是說基本上我們從最近的一個最近的一個外匯市場可以發現到就是說人民幣的一個波動度呢就很大"},{"start":4545.426,"end":4550.369,"text":"人民幣的波動度很大的時候亞洲貨幣它的波動度會隨著也波動很大因為畢竟匯率它是一個相對性的不過我們的報告也有講到從9月到現在為止的話我們台灣的一個新台幣的匯率我們貶值的反而是比較少"},{"start":4570.198,"end":4597.85,"text":"我反而是比較少但意思就是說而且呢不只是說我們貶值比較少而且呢我們的波動度呢是相當穩定的對台灣是這樣啊但是人民幣他之前的波動度很可能就是因為他無毛印鈔印了那麼多錢幾兆幾兆這樣一直出來因為他的財政有遇到問題嘛所以他一直印錢那未來還再加上美國的加徵60%的關稅很多人都認為中共對於人民幣的控制是守不住的"},{"start":4598.45,"end":4613.368,"text":"那如果貶值的幅度這麼大我拜託央行、拜託金管會、拜託財政部都要對這個問題提早預作準備啦好那大家要想好因應的對策好大家加油好謝謝好謝謝秉瑞委員接著請賴思寶委員質詢"},{"start":4625.314,"end":4638.611,"text":"謝謝主席有請財政部的莊部長金管會的彭主委、央行的楊總裁三位長官一起好嗎好我們的楊總裁、彭主委還有我們的莊部長"},{"start":4645.064,"end":4670.087,"text":"三位總管好我先請教金管會的彭主委這個題目簡單的題目問完你就可以回去你的座位了我們看到速發部要推動要打詐網路廣告實名制我們的財政部長在這裡都很清楚我們飯官股九大飯官股跟進了"},{"start":4671.428,"end":4695.298,"text":"我就問金管會你能不能也為了政府的打造績效也能夠盡一點力有沒有可能讓不管是不是飯工股所有的銀行跟進還有上市櫃公司也跟進所以在網路平台下廣告一定要實名制否則不下可以嗎是報告委員其實這件事情是我們在10月30號的時候金管會"},{"start":4696.138,"end":4725.114,"text":"在召開我們自己成立的內部的防詐小組我們邀集了各個工會來一起討論出來的一個想法後來他們就開始落實來實施當然站在金管會的立場我們是對於所有的詐騙是一樣是深惡痛絕我們也是採取各種方法當然這由業者自發性的這樣的一個作為我們是支持的所以我們也會持續保有這個態度我們也希望說大家一起來防詐包括我們這些這些所謂的廣告組也應該善盡社會責任"},{"start":4726.192,"end":4750.025,"text":"沒有啦我問你的就是你可不可以要求這個上市櫃公司或者最少強烈建議上市櫃公司我們為台灣的這個乾淨的一個空間啦所以就打詐大家一起來沒有實名制不下廣告可以嗎這部分我們也是朝這個方向在做你要求跟朝這個方向不一樣啊這個"},{"start":4751.587,"end":4778.905,"text":"能不能在這裡答應蘇華部長昨天已經答應了明年1月開始做不到兩個月就開始做了你這裡同樣可不可以或者最少最少對於所有的民間的銀行也這樣做其實我們會我們其實已經朝這個方向在做了就是因為我們是金融主管機關監理機關那其實業者已經有非常高度的自發性我們也是在我們也是非常支持的我想"},{"start":4779.565,"end":4779.685,"text":"那部長啊"},{"start":4809.441,"end":4823.514,"text":"這裡面有一個問題昨天在立法院同樣的問題問你我們現在超真的四千多億你說沒有辦法還稅於民那你可以做什麼事再講一遍好不好"},{"start":4825.224,"end":4833.795,"text":"對於我們的稅收的時增數超過預算數的部分第一個我們會減少舉債比如說今年的總預算原來要舉債的部分我就沒有舉那另外我會增加還債沒有增加會增加因為第一個你沒有增加今年度沒有增加"},{"start":4842.565,"end":4855.892,"text":"為什麼?因為我們會等到11月到12月的以後我們在算那個時增數大概可以達到多少然後然後國庫的資應上沒有問題我們就增加還債第一個公債法裡面就有規定好了你可以增加多少還債嗎?跟我請一下大概增加多少?"},{"start":4858.294,"end":4873.97,"text":"委員您上次在審我們預算的時候就有做一個決議就是說我們超過的預算數那部分至少要再還5%嘛對不對5%那個是法定的太低了啦不是法定的部分已經還了已經還了1158億已經還但是到過時增數超過預算數的部分我們至少要再還5%那至少是150億以上對"},{"start":4880.177,"end":4880.537,"text":"臺灣對美國的貿易順差800億美金"},{"start":4904.31,"end":4930.691,"text":"總裁獨家一直說五百多億喔!查這,是什麼人準?財政部公布的財政部公布的貿易順差有八百億美金喔!八百零五億喔!總裁獨家一直說五百多億喔!到底查在哪裡啦?查在哪裡啦?為什麼查內?你們公布的啊!經濟部國際貿易署官方的文字裡面對!"},{"start":4935.278,"end":4945.943,"text":"對,去年就是賺美國是805億順差嗎順差805.6億跟委員報告一下差在哪裡跟總裁差在哪裡807億是112年全年是對各國的順差但是對美國112年是353億那今年1到10月對美國順差是529億沒有錯是529億今年到1到10月份對"},{"start":4963.39,"end":4970.412,"text":"財政部公布對美國突破出口突破4300億順差805億不要提在這裡啊不要提你們財政部公布的啊財政部公布的數字啊我們順查了去年去年是880億不是對美國而已美國是353億"},{"start":4989.476,"end":4993.6,"text":"這是你們公布的數字,再查一下啊!來來來!我就請教那個總裁啊!現在川普總統上來囉!好不好,那個部長可以請回囉!這個"},{"start":5004.895,"end":5015.278,"text":"我們都知道他現在祭出一個關稅戰對不對是沒有錯如果真的大陸課60%全世界課10%會全世界產生什麼狀況會不會disaster是不是災難對全世界的經貿我覺得我個人覺得比如說60%10%因為在我們的這個報告裡面就是說美國川普上台之後"},{"start":5032.484,"end":5041.307,"text":"包括拜登政府所以對全球平均對中國大陸最後是19.3%那對其他的國家是3%那現在就是說要10%我從3%要到10%那非常高喔那你從20%要到60%那是很高喔那我總覺得我個人我也總覺得就是說60%真的有可能嗎"},{"start":5062.233,"end":5065.334,"text":"那68呢當然他因為...所以你不太相信60%啦簡單來講你不太相信60%啦那真的是68的話所以呢我剛剛才在講等一下等一下因為時機有限那川普講囉說如果原來講說如果中國打台灣要炸北京後來後面一點是講說要扣150%到200%那更不可能啦如果他會這樣講"},{"start":5091.063,"end":5097.685,"text":"我想這個有些時候是一個策略是一個策略所以剛剛我還是講到一個重點所以你講的就是60%不可能10%也不可能我也不是說不可能啦我只能說懷疑啦不可能我只能說是懷疑懷疑那因為因為你就說對如果說對他的那個EV對他的鋰電池對他的太陽能板他的新三樣"},{"start":5117.392,"end":5137.424,"text":"他扣高稅那這有可能會超過60多有可能對不對但是對其他的商品我在想特別是他的那個consumer goods他的一個消費品美國說實在的他也非常依賴中國大陸的消費品"},{"start":5140.23,"end":5151.636,"text":"但是他現在就很簡單嘛他拿到總統的位子主要是靠的他就是經濟就是高關稅啦所以你講說這個可能性不高但是萬一萬一他們出怎麼辦我就請問你如果10%、60%真的靠了全世界經濟會怎麼樣你回答一下回答一下好我回答就說第一個我們"},{"start":5166.543,"end":5181.09,"text":"我覺得就是那個Fed的主席他講了一句話講得很好他說他對於這個政見呢川普的政見呢他不去預測他不去假設他不去猜測"},{"start":5182.506,"end":5197.933,"text":"他因為他的那個時間啊他第一個他的timing是什麼時候第二個他的規模是怎麼樣他都搞不清楚所以美國的貨幣政策呢他也認為就是說他在這種前提之下他不做這些的一個猜測可是也因為這樣子他現在美金獨強啊嚇一嚇給我啊全世界最強貨幣就是美元啊那現在是市場的一個反應啊那沒有錯啦沒有錯啦那現在美元是又強了到106左右"},{"start":5210.938,"end":5224.924,"text":"這個你看起來好那我覺得剛才跟你財政部的差距在於我們軍購算不算在貿易順差逆差裡面算不算據我們了解我們也有跟那個財政部也有溝通過應該是有有放在那裡面"},{"start":5230.646,"end":5255.984,"text":"有放在裡面我跟你具體講一點啦你又不敢講硬體有啦軟體沒有啦那這個我就不太覺得軟體沒有啦因為那個貿易是屬於你擔心不擔心我們又再被列為匯率操縱國會不會擔心匯率操縱國基本上呢基本上呢到目前為止我們跟美國財政部呢溝通得非常良好"},{"start":5256.604,"end":5281.549,"text":"所以不會所以我們剛剛在講就是說我們現在是兩個標準三個條件滿足兩個啦基本上三個條件不會三個條件不會那我都認為現在不管是貿易順差你講500億好了我講300億好了啦我都認為這個就是他要我們付保護費他們在努力的方向他是生意人的mindset"},{"start":5282.37,"end":5286.876,"text":"你要賺我錢我當然要把你賺回來啊從武器裡面買回來啊你同意不同意同意不同意合理嘛就是他目標就是三五百億美金啦這個就是所謂的保護費最後一個最後一個很重要的東西"},{"start":5301.01,"end":5328.345,"text":"川普擁抱加密貨幣啊他裡面喔今年五月份喔他進行活動接受比特幣的捐款而且他要成為美國首位的第一個比特幣總統這裡面他說加密貨幣是一百年前的鋼鐵工業而且還川普居然說啊永遠不要出售你的比特幣"},{"start":5329.786,"end":5336.049,"text":"這個都這樣子,但是這個完全是打臉楊總裁,楊總裁對加密貨幣是非常不屑的,你要不要回應一下我們是認為就是說加密貨幣它的價格波動非常大,那它投資的成分非常高"},{"start":5347.154,"end":5365.738,"text":"那這個呢至於你在講這個的時候呢事實上呢我據我了解金管會也要對加密貨幣呢他要監管他而且他他你還是不接受嗎他現在可能那監管就是接受的意思啊馬斯克這麼重要的一個他的策勢馬上接這個效力部的部長吧馬斯克說以後可以用比特幣來還美國的國債請問美國國債我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":5375.3,"end":5391.287,"text":"馬斯克是很會操縱市場的啦他以前他也講說喔他的比特幣可以跟那個去購買那個他的那個Tesla結果到最後呢也是不了了之所以是隨便講講我會我不出字啦所以我們楊總裁點兩點馬斯克隨便講講馬斯克也是蠻會操縱金融市場的好啦我們請你就是這一點啦現在"},{"start":5399.85,"end":5400.751,"text":"怎麼辦?"},{"start":5400.751,"end":5410.997,"text":"這個東西你一直瞧不起的比特幣現在變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成"},{"start":5435.104,"end":5454.707,"text":"好請楊總裁謝謝郭委員長楊總裁你剛剛講說費特主席他不預測不猜測不曉得川普的哪些政策什麼時候執行可是今天我們財委會就是要談說他的新任的總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟金融穩定的可能的影響與對策"},{"start":5455.748,"end":5455.788,"text":"影響與對策"},{"start":5474.562,"end":5500.273,"text":"你最清楚的預測就是這個對美國的預測到底是什麼不是不是不是我的意思就是說你看看齁我們的報告裡面也有談到齁就是說你看RMF就是國際貨幣基金然後呢PIE美國華府的智庫他們也有做預測是我說我們啊我們的預測是什麼就譬如講我就舉一個最簡單的例子嘛好你說你說你說你預測來來來我聽你的預測來來你說你說你說你說啦"},{"start":5504.074,"end":5505.816,"text":"我就聽你預測我們是在聽你講的啊來來來沒有啦你預測啦沒有好那我就舉一個例子好讓你來預測好了你現在剛剛就說美國的國債到底多少嗎美國國債目前為止啊如果換算成台幣的話超過1000兆對"},{"start":5519.811,"end":5527.335,"text":"美國他們自己本身喔單利息的部分都要償還都要佔GDP的3.4%喔在這種情況底下你認為美元是會走強還是走貶這跟我們的匯率息息相關啊我總是希望看到你的預測嘛"},{"start":5537.08,"end":5556.964,"text":"好 那個委員我把我的報告跟各位來看一下事實上你看看我們的第12頁我們第12頁就是說在那個時候就是說在選舉之前那時候就開始盛行9月底的時候就開始盛行說Trump的交易那個時候美元就開始在搶了"},{"start":5564.626,"end":5570.768,"text":"每年就是開始在搶了你看看從那個時候到9月就預測川普會當選喔欸那個時候是預測川普會當選喔9月中間是有說可能是民主黨會當選啊沒有沒有沒有我跟委員報告事實上呢9月底之後呢一般來講市場都會覺得是川普會贏"},{"start":5585.214,"end":5608.815,"text":"但是呢到11月初的時候呢具體的政策有什麼要影響我們講具體講你預測的final好不好到11月初的時候呢他那個時候呢民調才會覺得就是說哈里斯跟這個川普呢兩個是幾股相當我不跟你談事後分析啦我是談你預測結果未來是啦未來的是到目前我們在看呢你看看"},{"start":5609.776,"end":5634.166,"text":"美元呢,可能還是會搶的還是會搶,好,謝謝那這樣子你就有清楚的預測美元會搶嗎然後你這樣匯率,你現在情勢會怎麼樣嘛對不對所以我是覺得你預測時不多但是呢有一個更少的是你的第二部分的報告你的第二部分報告這個整個有關於腳褲的部分居然只有三行不到這個部分我更加concern的部分"},{"start":5635.286,"end":5657.719,"text":"過往我們每年繳獲利益的部分大概是1800到2000的部分那一般影響說因為我們壓低雙率的結果會影響到物價跟房價有這種說法你承不承認沒關係當然我們再來做討論那重點其實是你這樣的情況底下讓整個央行繳戶佔財政收入的比例非常高甚至整個比例甚至高達一成"},{"start":5658.559,"end":5685.606,"text":"整個國家的腳褲比例超過一成沒有沒有超過一成沒有待會讓你澄清待會讓你澄清第二個呢是國營事業裡頭的大概八到九成我先問第一個問題是說如果是這樣子的話過往我們央行資產在委外操作的部分大概140到150億這個比重大概2.7%我簡單的講這個部分呢在委外的部分達標只有三年啦有兩年比自鈔還好而已啦也就是說基本上都輸給通膨啦"},{"start":5687.566,"end":5707.692,"text":"那這個部分你是不是要做一個調整一來呢有沒有可能把這個腳褲的比例來限縮來變成加碼來作為這個資金的上的操作或者呢把這個委外到錯的部分呢加碼成為自操有沒有這個可能性啊用這個部分來增加盈餘啊事實上委員我告訴你事實上呢我們這個調整我們這個二點幾"},{"start":5715.156,"end":5729.174,"text":"幾%這是我們經過調整以後的一個比例事實上我們是每年都是動態調整的所以就是說我們大概是這樣子如果說他的績效不好的時候我們就把他踢出去"},{"start":5729.815,"end":5738.842,"text":"我們加入那個就是說那個他的績效那你乾脆自鈔就好你自鈔反而比較好啊那當然啊所以你會發現就是說事實上我就是請你說你乾脆自鈔就好啦我剛剛問題點就是請你自鈔就好啦自鈔比例提高就好啦第一個我們對我們給外面來操作的時候有一個好處第一個呢第一個他提供我們很很有價值的訊息我說把外委外的部分比例減少自鈔的比例提高啦外面的已經是減少啦"},{"start":5758.697,"end":5762.621,"text":"我們已經是減少了我們已經是減少了我們已經是減少了我們已經是減少了我們已經是減少了我們已經是減少了"},{"start":5781.8,"end":5799.912,"text":"這個跳過這樣跳過接下來的部分一個部分你現階段的部分如果說按照你這個比例的話大概是大概8.85%剛剛說一成不到一成但是畢竟是日本國家的大概19倍之多也是美國的好幾倍"},{"start":5800.992,"end":5817.86,"text":"這比重這麼高的情況底下他有換算出一個公司是國外的利率乘以外匯存底然後加上定存單的利率加上央行的這個發行量定存單的發行量這四個人在做操作那前面的部分國外利率沒有辦法但是後面的部分就會有關係"},{"start":5819.581,"end":5835.049,"text":"那導致於呢變成你的整個政策呢會有這種為了達成這個營餘目標的達標而逐反到來推向說你來把這個雙綠政策的一個做調整有沒有可能這樣子我也藉這個機會來跟委員報告"},{"start":5838.725,"end":5842.288,"text":"絕對不會我用一個很簡單的數據來跟委員報告我們是不是請翻開第7頁第7頁呢,你可以看看他說我們故意壓低雙綠來達到我們營業的目標"},{"start":5860.487,"end":5871.598,"text":"那好我們來看看在第7月這邊從川普的美中貿易衝突到現在到11月11號你來看看我們新台幣是貶了7.17%"},{"start":5874.605,"end":5878.25,"text":"歐元7.89%人民幣11.09%澳洲幣是貶了12.5%如果說我們藉著貶值來達到盈餘的腳庫的話"},{"start":5892.55,"end":5908.868,"text":"那像韓國、日元、澳幣、人民幣他們都有很多的外匯存比啊那他貶得比我們多那是不是合理懷疑就是說他們比我們更操縱這個匯率來達成他的繳戶數目所以應該他要繳戶更多對啊那我們繳戶已經是從哪來啊"},{"start":5910.289,"end":5918.816,"text":"那當然是我們主要的還是我們很保守的去因為是美元的利率比我們台灣的利率高所以說還是賺到利差的關係嘛主要是賺利差嘛接下來剛剛提到所謂的減少發行定存單現在就有一個問題點了"},{"start":5926.582,"end":5948.589,"text":"減少問題單最近的整個8、9月呢減少定存單就少了大概是4千億的這種算法年初的時候8兆那現在剩下7兆2那這種情況底下就有一種狀況因為減少定存單市場的油資就會更多嘛比如說被懷疑說你一手呢在緊縮資金你在提準一手呢你又在放寬資金"},{"start":5950.649,"end":5961.233,"text":"兩手策略總裁會不會這樣子我來跟委員報告來請他的分析完全錯誤完全錯誤完全錯誤請說請說就讓你有說的機會嘛對對對那為什麼呢第一個第一個為什麼存單會下降你看我們存款準備率我們不是提了4碼嗎他就被我們抽了多少抽了6250億"},{"start":5978.88,"end":5989.618,"text":"是這樣的關係喔對啊這是第一個第二個呢他說說我們故意壓低利率是不是好那我給各位給委員第六頁第六頁"},{"start":5990.762,"end":6001.75,"text":"第六頁你看看我們台灣的通膨跟美國的通膨你看美國的通膨是126跟那個2017年來比較它是成長了26.3%24%英國26點歐元是21點幾南韓是11點你不要講那麼多總裁年金保有資訊是因為當行記者會再開了意思是什麼"},{"start":6016.201,"end":6033.311,"text":"意思就是說因為我們的物價低,比較低相對啦以後有類似的報導就麻煩你及時呈現嘛那當然我的利益就會比較低啊好,最後一個問題留給那個彭金龍、彭主委好了啦你回去休息啊,你也要補充說明在你之前要開記者會啊"},{"start":6034.332,"end":6038.294,"text":"三大融資公司之前有統計大概有將近兩千億是來自於公股銀行跟一般的銀行的資金"},{"start":6053.24,"end":6079.607,"text":"為什麼我會問這個問題呢就是因為我們72條之二有一些信用管制之後沒有資金的來源然後現在很多人很多中小建商就跑到去找這個融資公司可是問題是融資公司的部分呢他基本上當初給融資公司放款給融資公司主要是做期待的部分不過是生產工具有時候是汽車跟機具等等結果融資公司現在很聰明底下又成立了所謂的這些投資公司"},{"start":6081.047,"end":6101.999,"text":"然後他左手跟公股銀行跟一般銀行拿到2%的這個利息成本外面放呆的成本你知道高達多少嗎高達12到14%啊也就是簡單的講他轉手套利高達10%以上啊那個主委你有沒有知道這種現象這個齁 這個我們都有掌握啦因為剛剛有掌握 所以有這種現象"},{"start":6103.059,"end":6119.192,"text":"對,我們現在也有在關切這個會不會有,因為我們七二之二實際上是有關注那個流動性還有就是我們不要過度集中在那邊,如果透過一般的企業融資還是流入到不動產的話,我想這個東西我們應該要同時來看,因為從風險的角度是一樣的"},{"start":6120.433,"end":6137.189,"text":"沒有,還有公平爭議嘛你這個根本是監理套利嘛對不對你這個沒有監理到的然後你監理銀行銀行不能貸的結果融資公司貸那融資公司貸不但是讓房地產的政策形成破口二來呢它又形成套利的現象這種情況底下你要怎麼進行"},{"start":6137.99,"end":6165.399,"text":"要不要要求銀行去進行所謂的貸貨管理如果萬一有違反事實的話應該把款項收回你應該有類似這樣的政策主張嘛不是嗎這跟委員報告這我們正在進行中正在進行當中那你不透露一點進行到什麼情況底下什麼時候要對外講這個外面傳得沸沸揚揚欸雖然融資套利可以高達10%這融資公司已經被想成薯條三兄弟了這已經不是三兄弟根本是三土匪嘛"},{"start":6166.979,"end":6182.303,"text":"三兄弟當很久,現在是真正的形式是土匪嘛我們也在積極的採取一些動作,比如說我們上次也在文匯報告過,我們先採用金融消保法先來納管"},{"start":6184.124,"end":6210.886,"text":"我先講現在小寶寶那個歐尼維那之前的其他的消費正義行為我現在說的這個東西影響到整個房地產的政策影響到總體信用管制也影響到公平正義也影響到那些中小建商的權益吧是這些我們都已經有關你給我一個時間點你什麼時候要處理我們現在處理中了處理中我在跟委員在做那個說明要多久我想應該是"},{"start":6214.773,"end":6227.981,"text":"他一個月之內給委員完整的報告跟說明好,謝謝,謝謝委員好,謝謝郭國文委員齁處理那個土匪的事情齁其實也是要快齁那接著我們請李燕秀委員質詢"},{"start":6236.025,"end":6236.305,"text":"請央行楊總裁"},{"start":6253.402,"end":6277.89,"text":"好 謝謝總裁我想今天的幾個最近這段時間的所有的媒體大標都還是在談川普強勢回歸到白宮之後整個全世界因應川普2.0這個會犀牛未來整個經濟局勢、國內的變化當然台灣也不可能免除於外今天我看到媒體有一個大標寫強勢回歸的川普台積電對白宮沒有說不的權利"},{"start":6280.331,"end":6302.742,"text":"對台灣來說不只台積電恐怕有更多的議題我們恐怕被動式的恐怕要去做後續的因應跟處理所以看到你的簡報當中但是我必須還是要提醒剛才無論是回應吳秉瑞委員就是說今年的我們的跟美國的順差其實那個數字其實要非常的精確因為所有的評估報告來自於"},{"start":6304.184,"end":6319.283,"text":"的數字,我們到今年年底恐怕都會超過這個650億美金左右,而且這個數字是川普當時就任第一任的超過10倍以上,以川普如果看到這個數字"},{"start":6321.326,"end":6339.12,"text":"我就要跟總裁提一下以川普看到這樣的數字他可能第一關稅一定要加軍購一定要多買無論保護費或關稅的部分所以這件事情我看到總裁你有提到就是說在簡報裡面有提到說後續包括我們處理"},{"start":6343.423,"end":6368.824,"text":"我們貿易對美貿易順差的狀況我們有幾個方向農產品、能源政策還有我們的軍購的部分那軍購的部分那你覺得應該買多少才是一個合理因為川普要的是GDP佔10%啊那我們每一年我們的總預算才2兆多今年有3兆多10%的話就將近2.678兆左右那"},{"start":6373.427,"end":6393.589,"text":"你覺得多少才是合理的?我不是這一方面的專家所以我也沒辦法很抱歉我沒辦法來回答但是總裁你提這三個方向那你應該有一些具體的想法因為這三項目標沒有達到可能我們就會變成"},{"start":6395.151,"end":6400.016,"text":"川普口中的我們是匯率操縱國我們目前匯率操縱國的三大要件檢視的標準無論是美商有三大標準對美商的服務貿易的順差如果超過150億美元還有包括我們經常這樣的順差GDP比率超過3%有三項我們已經超過兩項了"},{"start":6419.475,"end":6426.119,"text":"所以我們隨便就會變成被指控我們是貿易操縱我們是匯率操縱我這樣講沒錯如果看這三個指標的話你怎麼不會川普他說他看這三個數字你就是超過你怎麼不會我只有兩個而已啊現在我們只有兩個而已啊"},{"start":6439.486,"end":6440.888,"text":"你覺得你跟他有這樣討價還價的餘地嗎?你跟拜登政府的財政部部長很熟但是你跟川普的財政部部長"},{"start":6456.286,"end":6457.167,"text":"我剛剛沒有講這一句話我就說我們跟美國的財政部會就這個匯率報告我們每年大概會有兩次的諮商"},{"start":6471.921,"end":6496.476,"text":"我沒有就說我每年就會跟那個人會合法因為我時間很短今天議題很重要媒體也都在關注新的政府上任有新的財政部長被升特我不知道你未來還有沒有機會維持什麼一年兩次以川普他的美國優先主義他的貿易保護政策未來是一個什麼樣的狀況全球各國的金融界"},{"start":6497.877,"end":6522.588,"text":"其實都是一邊哀嚎也在準備各式各樣的方案所以我剛才才說不要太過有自信你現在覺得說我匯率操縱國三項指標我只有兩項我沒有第三項川普哪輪到你說你只有兩項沒有三項他恐怕輪不到你這樣子講所以你提到我們目前今年貿易的順差已經對美已經超過到年底已經超過650億美元"},{"start":6524.409,"end":6543.907,"text":"我們的因應方式如果達不到因為從昨天顧立雄國防部部長回應說我們也不可能超過3%GDP我們買軍購不可能超過3%因為沒有錢農產品我們要買小黃玉國人也沒有能力我們人也不夠多也能買的也有限能源政策"},{"start":6544.628,"end":6562.8,"text":"我們更有對其他國家我不知道這可能有很多的國與國之間的不同的思考在裡面其實能買能不能買這麼多所以很多事情不是你說了算我們想說了算所以目前三項匯率操縱國有兩項就在裡面所以我問你怎麼辦"},{"start":6564.608,"end":6567.491,"text":"你的議員策略有什麼處理?當然啦,就是說,第一個,這兩項呢,都是比較辛苦的啦。第一個就是說,我們要對美國的順差要把它降低下來。但是呢,問題是在於就是說,因為美國對我們的自動性產品他就很需要啊,他很需要,他只有覺得我們台灣有啊。"},{"start":6586.844,"end":6611.594,"text":"總裁你講這些我都知道所以我問你怎麼辦你今天來這邊是回答我怎麼辦這個所以呢也就是說我們我就說事實上呢也不是說川普的時代我們沒有跟他諮商過事實上川普上任的四年我們也是幾乎是每年兩次跟他諮商川普的川普再強勢回白宮我相信跟第一任也有可能不一樣應該會不一樣是啦是啦沒有錯啦沒有錯啦我們也沒有就是說錯就是一樣的"},{"start":6615.375,"end":6629.519,"text":"所以你的因應策略是什麼你還是沒有回應我啊那當然啦就是說第一項呢這個就是說我們必須要就是說如何降低下來而且要磋商磋商也沒辦法就是說專業來跟他磋商為什麼因為那是貿易的問題"},{"start":6633.4,"end":6652.801,"text":"總裁我聽到最後我覺得你都是沒有辦法那我再問你一個問題當時台積電張忠謀提兩年前的時候提到說全球化的貿易已經死了那當時你覺得說他提的非常極端可能應該不是這樣子那你覺得川普在強勢回白宮之後全球的貿易化"},{"start":6654.571,"end":6682.5,"text":"已經死了這句話你現在還有不同的看法嗎?我總覺得可能會再更碎片化如果說是Globalization就是說因為Globalization、De-Globalization就是說是去全球化事實上這是一個程度的問題那死掉的意思呢我可能我都把它解讀很極端就是說就沒有全球化就沒有彼此就是說大家只有彼此互相來貿易"},{"start":6684.32,"end":6692.408,"text":"就是這樣子而已沒有就是說是你之前你回應說廠商有很多的彈性自然可以去因應這樣的策略跟狀況但是你覺得我們現在許多廠商有辦法去抵擋這個關稅俠川普2.0的衝擊嗎我跟委員報告事實上我們廠商他的因應能力很好的"},{"start":6705.56,"end":6709.966,"text":"比我個人所想像的他們都還好還優秀總裁,廠商所有的業界產業界是在辛苦裡面求生存因為他要活下去他養這麼多的員工又是因為他們要求生存他們才很積極的要如何來"},{"start":6720.52,"end":6736.36,"text":"不得不但是身為國家最重要的財經山長今天都在現場我聽到現在為止我聽不到有任何解決的方案這就是所謂的灰犀牛效應我們知道灰犀牛已經來了但是我們卻拿不出方法這才是我們最擔心的"},{"start":6743.645,"end":6750.069,"text":"川普對於商人的,他是商人的性格這一句話你同不同意?所以我請問你,到底我們現在面對川普在強勢回白宮之後"},{"start":6759.295,"end":6779.222,"text":"你覺得我們到底要注意什麼?你覺得它跟第一任最大的不同接下來會是什麼?你看到的,你有看到你才有辦法因應嗎?對啦,不過我們的因應就是說救中央銀行我只能就是說救我們中央銀行的因應啊那所以呢我們就是提出了三個衝擊那然後呢我們三個因應嘛"},{"start":6780.482,"end":6791.991,"text":"你三個因應沒有辦法解決我剛剛請問過農產品、軍購、天然氣所以這個是跨部會要開的一個應應對所以今天張偉很聰明很有智慧排了這樣的議題啊所以這就是灰犀牛的效應我非常遺憾今天我們排了一個這麼重要的議題我相信"},{"start":6809.083,"end":6813.027,"text":"國安部、外交部、輪委會其他的部會呢都是在密切的注意川普的一個貿易政策之後呢要怎麼來因應那就中央銀行的一個立場呢我們第一個就是說他對我們台灣經濟的衝擊會是什麼樣對我們的經濟"},{"start":6827.781,"end":6847.154,"text":"總裁你不用回應你回到我現在看的是灰犀牛的效應我們的政府提不出指出更好的方式跟方法我目前沒看好先暫停一下我可不可以請金管會的主委跟財政部部長我最後30秒而已來召委我要再一分鐘好主委"},{"start":6849.224,"end":6864.224,"text":"財經財經"},{"start":6864.324,"end":6890.33,"text":"之前我們都覺得我們的金融營業稅的部分因為我們金融業體質非常好是好學生在我看來其實因為他沒有進扣的抵稅額所以齊頭市的平等5%的營業稅叫做齊頭市的不平等我是這樣看因為他沒有進扣的可以抵扣的這個項目部長我是這樣子看那但是部長回應說今年不調降因為體質很好我在我看來就是懲罰好學生"},{"start":6892.976,"end":6910.752,"text":"這其實不好的你有機會調降但是我們現在面臨到我們現在金融業接下來全球都在因應挑戰包括OECD國家也都是他們甚至把它調降甚至有些是歸零調整為零所以前一陣子你回應說部長說金融業稅不調降還是5%你說尊重"},{"start":6914.295,"end":6941.807,"text":"我覺得前段時間可以說尊重啦但是因為我今天時間已經到了我還是要提醒金融營業稅的部分我覺得因應全球不同的變化跟狀況我覺得應該要做階段性的思考過去面對全球金融衝擊在2012年的時候雷曼風暴我們好像有調整為零或甚至調到兩趴那接下來的狀況我希望部長、主委在現場"},{"start":6943.544,"end":6949.563,"text":"有沒有可能有一些彈性是不同的變化我們把金融一頁稅放一些彈性未來去做評估"},{"start":6951.038,"end":6969.945,"text":"部長你先回應因為是你強勢的說一定要5%在我看來齊頭市的公平就是叫做不公平跟委員報告金融營業稅原來是有2%要歸到金融業特別準備金那到今年落日了所以在稅率上目前來說就是5%也就是其實金融業只有銀保本業的部分是5%那所以這個部分金融營業稅這個部分並沒有規劃要調降是"},{"start":6976.588,"end":6999.305,"text":"那當然委員剛剛提醒說整個國際局勢的一些整整變化等等那未來我們會當然也會持續和金管會一起來觀察國際整個情勢的一個變動影響好我最後10秒主委不要忘記你今天來的目的其實你從產業界你可能看到的問題更多你過去的初衷是什麼我覺得要堅持"},{"start":7000.126,"end":7001.067,"text":"接下來請李坤城委員質詢"},{"start":7027.45,"end":7031.933,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請央行楊總裁請楊總裁總裁好大家都在關心川普再度當選總統之後對於台灣經貿的影響本席想請教一下總裁當你知道說川普確定當選總統之後你那時候心情的感受是怎麼樣?"},{"start":7056.102,"end":7083.899,"text":"我的感受就是說會更就是說會有一種有一種挑戰挑戰是有一種挑戰因為畢竟那個他川普大家剛剛也在講就是說他是一個商人性格就是說他的一個政策有些時候他雖然也是講了這個這些的這個政策他的政見出來但是呢他比較不容易去prediction去預測他"},{"start":7085.2,"end":7097.332,"text":"所以不能預測不容易預測這本身就是一個uncertainty就金融市場來講的話Uncertainty它就是一個大問題所以就會覺得這是一個挑戰對於總裁來講"},{"start":7101.075,"end":7119.97,"text":"央行的挑戰在哪裡?那當然啊就是說我們央行的挑戰也就是說外匯市場它本身它就是一個很大的挑戰因為capital flows現在不想你看美元大家都說它現在降息它會漏下來沒有沒有想到你看它它噗噗噗又跑上去了又那麼強你看看所有的幣幣對它都是怎麼樣都貶值"},{"start":7125.855,"end":7128.617,"text":"這是一個挑戰第二、對經濟上關稅下去對全球的影響是怎麼樣因為台灣是以貿易為主的所以對全球貿易的衝擊是怎麼樣對台灣的貿易會怎麼樣"},{"start":7149.847,"end":7172.006,"text":"那這個是我們要因應對我們經濟的成長會怎麼樣對通膨的影響是怎麼樣這個我們要因應的那總裁請教一下你看第一個就是講到這一個美元升值了美元變強了那台幣來講相對就變弱了那最近從這個川普確定當選來之後台幣是不是一直在貶值"},{"start":7173.767,"end":7191.92,"text":"我們有這個表,有一個表給各位來參考我看昨天也已經扁到大概32點多了那有沒有觸及到您的這個32.5的楊金龍防線我想中央銀行沒有防線,但有沒有底線不是有底線,因為第一個"},{"start":7194.464,"end":7217.3,"text":"貿易是供需決定這是第一個那現在討論就是說因為現在川普當選之後看起來美元是強那台幣相對是弱勢那台幣最近也不斷在貶值那所以我想請教一下但是我們貶值啊我們跟我的十二月這邊啊你看看日圓貶了6.6%其他國家也貶啦那相對是小我有看你的報告我們是很穩定的就台灣來講的話"},{"start":7220.667,"end":7222.795,"text":"這個總裁 這個請教一下 央行進場干預的條件"},{"start":7226.083,"end":7249.596,"text":"時機在哪裡?如果說供需的平衡就是供需它的差距太大會導致你的匯率的波動很大的時候中央銀行一定要進去因為匯率這個價格跟其他的商品的價格不太一樣的你看看我們的一般的商品台灣過後了以後它價格就下來了"},{"start":7250.516,"end":7258.884,"text":"這個不是喔,這個如果說你貶值你不是去做一個適當的調解的時候那川普當選還不像颱風嘛,颱風過了就沒有了,川普未來是當選會4年啊所以這個說匯率就很怕他的預期是單項的所以呢央行的調解就是說必須要讓他不能有單項的預期"},{"start":7275.258,"end":7297.415,"text":"這個就是中央銀行的一個質詢所以就是說中央銀行每天要盯住盯住大概到什麼條件點的時候那當然我們這個我們自己會來做那個看不見的手會進去嗎還是看得見的手會進去對我們也不方便在這裡講說到哪裡的時候我們就會下去到哪裡的時候我們大概是哪些條件啊對啦那第一個我還是在講principle"},{"start":7301.198,"end":7309.001,"text":"公需決定第二個呢他如果說公需非常的失衡的時候呢中央銀行要進去那如果說貶值是一個大家普遍的一個現象的話那中央銀行應該也不必要太緊張吧因為大家都在貶啊那你也應該允許他調解啊因為匯率本身不只是說是你自己的還包括它是相對性的其他的都在貶那你要申嗎不可能嘛你也會隨著貶"},{"start":7329.568,"end":7343.943,"text":"因為特別是像現在美元強的時候其他幣別都弱美元弱的時候其他幣別都是強現在就有這種特色那您預設就是說接下來美元還是會持續在走強嗎到目前為止是這樣子但是我也跟委員報告匯率這個價格是很難去prediction的"},{"start":7352.952,"end":7368.322,"text":"他是很難去,所以這個就是說為什麼中央銀行要必須要每天我們都是要必須要關注他他的供需還有的capital flows這個就是說為什麼我們要時常盯住他的意思我在就教總裁,那您認為這個未來這四年內這個川普的這個貨幣政策是不是會持續採取比較寬鬆的這個方式"},{"start":7378.116,"end":7393.627,"text":"原先的預期就是說費德他是認為就是說今年會調整4次調降4次明年4次後年會2次但是川普一上來的時候恐怕他這個步調恐怕就會改變"},{"start":7394.508,"end":7397.091,"text":"所以這個改變我跟委員報告就是說這個改變FED現在目前他也不曉得說他要怎麼來改變他唯一能夠做的呢Data dependent"},{"start":7409.525,"end":7423.664,"text":"也就是說第一個他看他的那個什麼他美國的一個經濟的指標CPI還有就是說勞動市場的情況是怎麼樣這個是第一個第二個呢他也要關注就是說川普他"},{"start":7424.485,"end":7443.324,"text":"他的這個關稅政策他的一個budget的他的財政政策這些呢是什麼時候出場第二個呢他的規模是怎麼樣那他如果說知道一步一步知道的時候呢他就會把這些的數據呢把他用在那這個是FED的預測嗎那"},{"start":7445.026,"end":7464.324,"text":"我們的預測我們大概也是會朝這樣的一個方向就是說因為我們現在也不曉得啊我們也不曉得說總裁不能說不曉得啊大家都在看你欸因為說不曉得說他只有政見那政見什麼時候實施他的規模是怎麼樣你要預測他當選就職之後明年1月20號就會開始實施了"},{"start":7469.94,"end":7480.384,"text":"所以我就說我們在報告裡面講我們每一季我們每一個季每一季我們都會做修訂我用4年前總裁曾經說過的話有兩句話因為那時候是台灣也被列入匯率的觀察名單兩句話我其實現在4年之後再來檢視我覺得還是有用那我請教教這個總裁在4年前12月17號"},{"start":7494.85,"end":7510.043,"text":"那時候我們被列入匯率的操縱觀察名單你講了兩句話我認為現在再來請教第一個,台灣被列入匯率觀察名單是因為川普第二個,美國寬鬆的貨幣政策就是我們的挑戰四年後再來檢視這兩句話"},{"start":7514.186,"end":7528.715,"text":"現在反而是不一定是寬鬆那時候是寬鬆的話是我們的挑戰沒有錯現在是反而是他的貨幣政策的一個不確定性是我們的挑戰"},{"start":7529.83,"end":7553.44,"text":"所以你認為他的貨幣政策是不確定性不一定是採寬鬆的貨幣政策對是寬鬆或是緊縮呢這個到目前為止都是一個很不確定性的一個情況那這個是我們的挑戰所以呢我們在這個的在這個報告裡面我們有列出三個第一個第三個的衝擊就是說費的他的一個貨幣政策的不確定性是會衝擊到我們"},{"start":7555.562,"end":7563.207,"text":"對,如果我看到三大衝擊但是其實危機有時候常常也是轉機我看今天大家都在講衝擊那對我們來講川普再度當選總統除了對你來講衝擊跟挑戰你有沒有什麼轉機的地方?"},{"start":7570.045,"end":7581.113,"text":"我覺得就是說只要大家第一個就是說大家要密切注意它然後呢對於川普的政策還有美國貨幣政策呢我們要如何去adapt去調整而且呢我們的調整呢要能夠就是說我們能夠順勢的而為而不是逆勢而為順勢的"},{"start":7591.661,"end":7608.706,"text":"那這樣的話呢所以呢為什麼我們在第一個part我們在第一個part我們在第一個部分裡面就談到了就是說川普那個時候的美中貿易衝突呢台灣呢反而是反而是加分的受益是受益的接下來川普的團隊都是屬於這個抗中保台的團隊啊所以接下來是不是會像四年前這個美中貿易戰一樣台灣有一樣在這個地方在經濟上面也會在得利"},{"start":7621.989,"end":7646.301,"text":"我們報告也有提到就是說以前啊川普的這個貿易政策呢我們是轉單效應的我們是轉單啊我們獲益啊但現在呢我們這個轉單的效益是不是還能夠持續還是是不是就像以前那樣的強那這個我們要關注但是我們不能保證就是說就是一定是這樣子的那如果說是這樣的話那你就但關稅對於我們的影響勒"},{"start":7648.963,"end":7654.772,"text":"關稅的影響這個我也不敢說了為什麼為什麼因為我還是一直在強調就是說"},{"start":7656.394,"end":7676.246,"text":"這個我們輸出到美國的這個商品是他們所需要的而且這都是戰略的商品那這個呢是誰要來付費是我們的出口商呢或是他們的消費者呢這個都很難說所以就是說如果真的要對台灣的這個貨物採取這個關稅加關稅的話那你覺得對於這個台灣的企業的影響比較多還是對於美國來講影響比較多"},{"start":7684.635,"end":7709.989,"text":"這個我要做比較詳細一點的study才知道就現在大家最關心的就是半導體不過我是還是在講就是說第一個part那個是很好的一個example是一個很好的例子可以讓我們稍微來注意一下事實上我總覺得我們還是獲利的我們還是獲利的那我們當然是擔心不過我總覺得我們也不必要太悲觀"},{"start":7710.589,"end":7736.09,"text":"所以對於這個川普再度當選總統總裁認為是有挑戰但有信心是對有信心而且我們要就是說很謹慎的去因應好OK好謝謝總裁好謝謝昆城接著請王洪威委員質詢好謝謝主席我請那個楊總裁好請楊總裁"},{"start":7745.951,"end":7765.878,"text":"王委員早總裁早安總裁你今天的報告就是川普當選之後對於全球的經濟特別是對台灣的經濟乃至於我們的貨幣政策、外匯政策還有貿易的報告得到高度的重視謝謝剛才也有很多委員在跟您請教"},{"start":7767.759,"end":7791.689,"text":"不過像Fed主席就鮑爾其實川普不喜歡他但是我覺得鮑爾很有guts他就說如果川普不喜歡他想要把他fire掉的話他說他會拒絕他說因為與法不合大家都很怕川普嘛現在關注他的新人士也關注到這個Fed的主席會不會換人"},{"start":7793.069,"end":7813.277,"text":"我個人是非常欣賞鮑爾的態度什麼事情都應該與法有據所以剛才總裁非常擔心的就是川普上來之後會對美國的貨幣政策造成很多的不穩定但是如果鮑爾他可以維持整個聯邦準備理事會的一個獨立超然性的話"},{"start":7817.478,"end":7826.602,"text":"那這樣的一個不穩定的因素可不可能某一種程度可以被排除我想他的不穩定第一個委員講得很好就是說"},{"start":7833.553,"end":7848.081,"text":"非的獨立性是非常重要的所以就是說他的不確定性我剛剛所講的一個不確定性如果說非的能夠來維持他的獨立性的話那他的不確定性可以減少一半"},{"start":7849.121,"end":7856.026,"text":"但是呢他的另外一半呢都操縱在他對阿譬如說關稅的影響對不對那個部分可能是最大的所以總裁你剛才一直擔心就是說本來大家預期呢在現在本來大家應該是放歌吧就是應該會逐步的降息因為他的通貨膨脹已經得到一定的控制"},{"start":7873.599,"end":7889.279,"text":"但是因為川普上來之後川普保護主義再起尤其他要全面性的提高關稅會衝擊到美國的通貨膨脹就是這個數字恐怕就沒有辦法像現在維持的這麼好所以也"},{"start":7890.24,"end":7891.742,"text":"所以總裁擔心的就是這一點是是是就是50%的這個部分那個uncertainty還是存在的"},{"start":7910.26,"end":7930.608,"text":"所以其實全世界的中央銀行維持這個通貨膨脹不能夠超出這個控制都是天職那所以Fed它有它的不穩定性所以在這邊我也想請教總裁那麼如果就台灣回到台灣層面來講你最關注的是什麼你最擔心影響台灣的這個這個經貿的點是什麼"},{"start":7938.11,"end":7963.137,"text":"我想這個就是說因為第一個就是說我們對美國的順差是一直持續在上漲我看到你對而且速度快我看到最新數字已經超過800億美元了你看你這個數字是一到九月份可是最新的今年我看搞不到到1000億了沒有不會啦不會啊今年大概多少今年我們貿易順暢我們就是只有500多億啦500多億對啦500多億"},{"start":7965.998,"end":7979.556,"text":"其實今年台灣對美貿易順差我們這邊有那個美國商務部我們這邊有一個美國商務部他給我們的一個數據這個我們做了一個projection"},{"start":7981.659,"end":7996.832,"text":"我看到了對對對那在這裡我們有做一個projection2024年是633因為他不是商品他的一個匯率報告裡面的一個標準不是只有商品還有包括勞務商品"},{"start":7997.392,"end":7998.152,"text":"中央銀行預估500億美元"},{"start":8015.018,"end":8032.631,"text":"台灣未來的通貨膨脹可不可以像現在把它維持得比較好因為我們現在的通貨膨脹率CPI已經把它降到2%以下了嘛 對不對那麼在川普上來之後那麼我們的通貨膨脹率有沒有可能"},{"start":8035.529,"end":8047.455,"text":"又比較難控制因為最近最近台幣爆量貶值嘛今天已經我不曉得今天是多少32點幾差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多"},{"start":8050.997,"end":8075.73,"text":"那所以臺幣貶值還有全球包含因為最重要是Fed如果他也沒有繼續的降息然後事實上美國的通貨膨脹再起所以對台灣的通貨膨脹影響是什麼總裁我跟委員報告事實上我們台灣的通膨不是說美國的通膨我們一定是通膨不見得"},{"start":8077.13,"end":8092.623,"text":"臺灣的通膨主要是那個製造物包括汽油啦、農產品啦這些的就是供給面的這些那你看看我就說所以呢川普一上來的因為川普有一個政策呢對於這個"},{"start":8094.324,"end":8094.404,"text":"希望國外多買"},{"start":8117.406,"end":8120.288,"text":"所以實有的價格你看看這個期貨掉到40塊這對我們是比較好可是總裁我要問你因為你說要增加對美國的採購那當然軍需品"},{"start":8134.339,"end":8160.441,"text":"這一塊這個已經是毋庸置疑的現在傳出一種說法因為呢我們的能源就是我們像我們天然氣主要的進口的地方是來自印尼嘛亞洲地區因為比較便宜因為他中資要從用船運過來但是呢我們現在有一個壓力就是美國也希望台灣多買美國的能源天然氣那會不會也造成這樣的一個成本跟價格的上漲"},{"start":8161.682,"end":8182.167,"text":"所以總裁也建議說我們多多跟美國採購啊所以在這樣的狀況之下有沒有可能推升包含這個能源的價格成本事實上我們就是說那個成本也不是說距離的長它的成本就高了"},{"start":8183.387,"end":8196.115,"text":"要看他的efficiency他生產的那個efficiency那以美國來講的話他在這一方面他是非常的有效率的所以就是說即使是美國的距離比我們長跟印尼來擺比較"},{"start":8200.117,"end":8216.165,"text":"但是呢,它的貨運,它的貨運的,如果說它的貨運呢,這個比較傳奇,比較密集,成本比較低的話,那也不見得啊。好,所以總裁,所以你也可以同意我們能源的採購可以從亞洲地區移轉到從美國採購。那當然,我現在呢,我的意思說,不是說可以移轉,那當然這個是經濟部要做的啦。"},{"start":8225.65,"end":8233.636,"text":"因為要大量採購買那小咪咪東西沒有用啦是的 我的意思就是說當然就是說經濟部或是台電或中油他必須要評估他的成本效益好 那另外因為我時間快到了總裁你們預估明年的GDP成長是多少我們預估是3.083.08 對那對不起時間暫停一下我請我們財政部長"},{"start":8253.497,"end":8255.298,"text":"首先暫停我們請財政部長這怎麼回事就要請教您了剛才總裁說最多是3.08明年但是我們的稅入我們稅入明年編的很多成長率高達19.28%"},{"start":8282.256,"end":8301.622,"text":"如果明年經濟成長率其實主計數也大概差不多3.2左右江航預估3.08就是3%多一點點但是我們可以增加到19.28這樣的一個歲入會不會有點變成不可能的任務"},{"start":8303.854,"end":8319.7,"text":"跟委員報告我們在編稅入預算的時候稅客收入預算的時候其實我們參考的項目很多當然經濟成長率是一個因素還有包含其他民間的消費以及稅制的調整都是包含在內的"},{"start":8321.401,"end":8325.482,"text":"可是那個時候也沒有這麼高的預期我要講的是因為明年度的我們的稅出膨脹非常高那當然你同樣的也把稅入調得很高這個稅入的基礎啊"},{"start":8337.006,"end":8357.023,"text":"其實真的我們一般稅入基礎要考慮到未來的經濟成長率其實在明年包含剛才總裁特別提到他都非常擔心明年其實很多事情都不確定那我們現在的出口很好我們現在出口都還是紅字但是能不能繼續紅字其實有很多專家學者已經開始在擔心了"},{"start":8357.663,"end":8358.944,"text":"所以當然對我們來講稅入我沒有辦法砍你嘛但是我是提醒你我們現在編高達19.28%年增率的一個稅入事實上是非常有高風險的"},{"start":8372.952,"end":8400.692,"text":"也就是說你為了要讓稅出得以支撐所以我稅入也編那麼多我們在編稅入的時候完全就我們的稅我們就在稅客收入的部分就稅的專業的部分是來做估算我們並沒有去估他的稅出會是多少來回頭考慮我們的稅客收入因為今年喔因為這兩年啊而且有些稅他是會有遞延效果的比如說營所稅、中所稅他是看今年的情形會在明年來反映的"},{"start":8401.392,"end":8416.024,"text":"對阿但是今年也不過4點多而已好我要講就是說其實你歲入我們在審查的時候我是不會砍你歲入嘛你要變那麼高就變那麼高但是呢我提醒你要達到19.8將近20%的成長率其實是非常困難的啦好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝王宏文委員謝謝王部長接下來我們請我們賴惠委員"},{"start":8432.215,"end":8434.242,"text":"謝謝主席我們請那個楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":8443.033,"end":8467.478,"text":"總裁我想就針對的就是這個川普即將在明年的1月20號重新回到美國來那就是擔任美國的總統那你知道這個這一次就是在美國的憲法裡頭那個總統的任期的一個規定川普未來是不是可以再進行年任還是就是說他這一屆就是四年"},{"start":8469.782,"end":8485.381,"text":"好像大家都認為就是說大概他這一任做完就結束了因為他的年齡的限制那他們的憲法是不是可以再持續下去這個我不曉得啦"},{"start":8485.942,"end":8506.364,"text":"他不能再連任下去了就是這四年這個一個政治的狂人再加上一個馬斯克你知道馬斯克他即將擔任在美國政府裡頭他有一個部門這個部長叫做政府效率部"},{"start":8507.324,"end":8532.573,"text":"政府效力部這個政府效力部做什麼事你知道嗎是總裁這個政府那個這個效力部他是講說這個這個部會就是將整個聯邦政府進行全面的財務跟績效的一個審計並且就重大的改革他將提出建議就是對重大的改革提出建議是是是一個狂人跟一個笑的"},{"start":8534.233,"end":8551.973,"text":"你有沒有想到就是說在未來的這個4年那我們台灣即將處在一個什麼樣的一個位置面對的這個美國一個瘋狂的一個川普那跟一個馬斯克"},{"start":8554.014,"end":8568.775,"text":"總裁講一講你的想法我的想法還是一貫的就是說他川普的他雖然他有這樣的一個政見已經出台了但是呢他是很不容易去預測他"},{"start":8570.197,"end":8598.636,"text":"他的那個手段或策略這些所以就是說在川普的任內是有高度的不確定性是有高度的不確定性你也就是說你自己也講得很清楚你即將面對新的一個挑戰這新的一個挑戰其實他充滿了不確定性那我們從就是在上週台晶宴他發布的最新的一個景氣的展望跟經濟的一個臆測"},{"start":8600.337,"end":8614.746,"text":"即使它推估今年的經濟成長率上修到4.03那明年它是就是等於是下降下降到3.15那你剛才講了你就是預估GDP是3.08這些數字對不對"},{"start":8619.349,"end":8634.104,"text":"這些所以我才會講所以我們在報告裡面我們會再講就是說因為有三大挑戰那這個三大挑戰一定會衝擊到台灣的經濟貿易所以我們的對策是現在我們應該我們還是維持我們的預測"},{"start":8640.33,"end":8659.608,"text":"但是呢我們在12月的時候明年的3月的時候明年的6月的時候呢我們大概都會做一些的調整好那你也一直就是在做滾動式的調整那你就是一直就是在面對的一個川普"},{"start":8661.63,"end":8678.498,"text":"不確定性那他的供需的一個決定那是不是就是說會影響到就是說他當初在他川普競選總統的那個經貿的一個相關的一個政見這個是在你的那個就是報告裡頭也特別提出來"},{"start":8679.298,"end":8694.479,"text":"不管是貿易政策它就是降稅嘛那財政的一個政策就是減稅嘛那移民政策它就是黃賭嘛就是驅趕嘛那農業政策好這裡頭這是央行整理的"},{"start":8695.12,"end":8714.822,"text":"那好你現在講到就是說你持續的觀察國際的一個經濟的一個情勢就是說持續的追蹤跟關注可是顯然這個講的非常的空洞欸喔喔喔不是這個空洞呢是比較能夠接受的為什麼我還是在強調它是不確定性"},{"start":8715.262,"end":8740.839,"text":"他是不確定：對對因為齁如果我們當然我們也可以就說他的scenario事實上我們我跟委員報告我還本身也有scenario的分析只是說我們那個scenario的分析scenario的分析就是說各種情況的分析那這各種情況的分析喔這個這個不是那只是能夠內參是啦是總裁不能就說我們就公開就說我們很多的委員"},{"start":8742.5,"end":8764.976,"text":"李卓人,他其實關心的就是說你的態度還有就是說川普他喊出來的這個關稅的一個問題是我們大家擔心的他喊到了60%這個60%的話就是他把關稅提高到60%其實就是講的很簡單就是我讓你做生意啊他是已經不讓你做生意了"},{"start":8765.336,"end":8777.945,"text":"那像這樣子這麼瘋狂的一個調整他的整個美國的一個經濟的政策的話事實上就是說我們大家都擔心擔心這一個震盪是不是對國內的經濟會產生很大的一個影響"},{"start":8781.908,"end":8796.242,"text":"這是我們比較擔心的甚至就是說其實就在之前拜登上台了以後過去的這一個四年中美的貿易戰雖然持續在進行可是這個是我們可以預估的"},{"start":8796.863,"end":8801.889,"text":"我們可以依估的那我們台灣的經濟其實也表現了非常的亮眼我們的出口的一個經濟還有就是說通盤還有新台幣的一個那個漲幅都是穩定的好台股也是好的"},{"start":8812.581,"end":8829.513,"text":"那在未來的4年你剛才講了很多很多那我們其實也都知道啦也都知道那我們在從國發會的一個經濟研究的期刊裡頭去特別看到了就是說他有研究到中美的那個貿易戰"},{"start":8830.754,"end":8840.839,"text":"對於就是我們未來的一個經濟影響的一個分析跟評估包括就是說他的負面衝擊他講到他說少賺了新台幣大概226億那我們賣到美國的這個正面效應我們是賺了73億可是這一來一去我們的淨損我們還是缺了153億"},{"start":8856.986,"end":8869.723,"text":"可是在這裡頭這一個研究期刊裡頭我們看到了就是說我們對東協的增加的出口他其實是沒有把它算進去了那所以這個也是要提醒就是說"},{"start":8871.257,"end":8897.102,"text":"在未來那個東協的一個增加也是我們非常重要的一個參考的參考的一個那個那個就是標一個標的那美國跟中國一直就是我國出口的前兩大市場尤其是美中台三方那個緊密的這個產業供應鏈跟三角的貿易關係那美中的貿易摩擦勢必就是會影響到我們會影響到我們"},{"start":8900.663,"end":8921.609,"text":"所以就是說剛才特別就是賴斯堡委員有跟你提到了就是說我們的金市採購那算不算在我們的這個美中貿易裡頭算在美中的貿易裡頭那軟體呢其實有時候硬體那個軟體是比硬體來得還多的那軟體是不是也算軟體應該是屬於服務項目啦"},{"start":8924.11,"end":8945.895,"text":"那服務項目的話因為服務的項目按照到我在推論我不是啊我還是必須要再去make sure一下我的推論就是說既然硬體的商品他有列入的話那這個服務的商品呢也應該要放入因為呢他在跟我們講就是說我們最大的順差多少那軟體也是要放進去應該要放進去的那總裁再提醒你"},{"start":8952.017,"end":8971.603,"text":"最近的美債率一直在上升就是說它的價值變高了那應該是一起美國的關稅它會造成通膨那就是我們那個就是央行跟金融業有大量的一個美債那我在這裡請教就是說那個總裁對於這個台灣的金融系統一定會造成很大的一個影響那你書面的報告給我好不好"},{"start":8981.966,"end":8981.986,"text":"時間暫停"},{"start":8999.131,"end":9020.268,"text":"市長,我針對的就是說雙11這個中國電商在台灣做了很大的一個廣告然後也做了很大的一個促銷就是中國的一個電商那剛才事前我有跟你請教了幾個議題顯然你認為這一個問題影響對國內的影響是不大的如果我們用美國的這一個就是"},{"start":9028.654,"end":9052.683,"text":"一天是那個800塊的美元那就是說他們其實在民主黨裡頭也有議員提到了就是小兒的那個豁免錢的一個濫用那他們希望去修正就是小兒的包裹的一個標準那你在那裡講到了就是說我們一年有就是半年就是有6次嘛那我們是就是一次是2000塊"},{"start":9055.005,"end":9079.566,"text":"這個就是影響台灣的百工百業差異不大你是不是這樣的一個態度呢跟委員報告這個低價免稅的這種貨品這是FCO的相關的一個規定就世界貿易組織當然我知道那是不是有一些比較積極的一個做法因為這個實在是影響影響那個我們台灣的一個產業不管是"},{"start":9080.126,"end":9080.867,"text":"為什麼?因為就是拼不過這個電商"},{"start":9095.919,"end":9117.299,"text":"那如果我們還存在的一個寬容的態度的話這個對我們台灣的一個產業是沒有達到一個保護的能量那我在這裡請教你你一天海關一天有多少包裹到台灣那其中有多少包裹是小件的包裹"},{"start":9118.339,"end":9125.168,"text":"我跟委員報告大概快遞貨物的話一天的量大概16萬到17萬對16萬到17萬是那所謂的低價免稅2000塊以下大概是將近會佔9成左右"},{"start":9133.319,"end":9155.35,"text":"響鈴響鈴響鈴響鈴"},{"start":9155.73,"end":9183.418,"text":"當然 這個標示準嗎?聽說很多報關是亂寫一通那你有沒有就是說試著去改善他這個這樣的一個機制那我們知道就是說他其實這個不管是對我們百工百業的一個照顧還有最主要就是說對消費者消費者也是一個服務聽說他退會是非常困難的"},{"start":9184.418,"end":9185.118,"text":"接下來我們請羅明財委員發言"},{"start":9209.932,"end":9218.42,"text":"主席各位出列習慣的主席可請央行楊總裁我們請央行楊總裁楊總裁你好今天會閃閃發光兩位金龍同列一旁希望還有加上財政部的努力可以力抗"},{"start":9234.824,"end":9253.208,"text":"美國即將在未來這幾年內一波又一波的關稅的壓力以及經濟市場的競爭那個總裁請問現在的台灣我們外匯存底是多少金額我們大概是5700多億這10年來不斷的成長"},{"start":9257.699,"end":9280.236,"text":"最近一兩年成長的比較少比較少一點,但趨勢是這樣上來的當然啦,我們慢慢要增加不過很可惜的兩個事情第一個就是本席在十年前建議大量買進黃金每樣子在一千大概三百塊的時候沒有買"},{"start":9281.297,"end":9302.45,"text":"第二個事情比較遺憾的就是我在也是同樣這個地方質詢的時候我說那總裁你可不可以參考一下買入一些虛擬貨幣、比特幣、比特幣那時候不到美金6000塊啊總裁你知道現在黃金一樣是多少"},{"start":9305.164,"end":9318.794,"text":"黃金一樣大概是2700億左右2000多了,2500喔對這個成長了很多另外一個虛擬貨幣這個比特幣現在一枚比特幣多少錢是"},{"start":9320.914,"end":9325.578,"text":"昨天8萬多美金有下來當然有可能會上去為什麼現在比特幣他的交易那麼樣的熱絡然後這個趨勢是不斷的往上甚至美國的一些報導裡面他們還說有可能比特幣一枚會漲到大概30萬"},{"start":9348.039,"end":9356.087,"text":"不過委員你這樣講我看的訊息呢他是說大概是15萬啦不管是15萬不管是30萬那我當初講的是6千塊啊6千塊如果漲到15萬的話哇"},{"start":9366.556,"end":9369.44,"text":"好大的一個差距耶不過我想我也藉這個機會我藉這個機會我來就是說對於委員的高見"},{"start":9379.353,"end":9394.264,"text":"預測的能力我也非常非常的佩服真的嗎是的沒有錯我非常佩服佩服沒有用就是我建議的其實你只要卓宇參考你不要買多嘛買個100億接下來你再買200億委員這個對央行來講都是"},{"start":9404.952,"end":9423.73,"text":"九牛一毛阿是是不過齁我說我對委員很佩服這是一回事啦沒有不敢沒有那中央銀行是不是要我更佩服你中央銀行是不是要involve在這一方面呢又是另外一回事啦是好佩服你的意思呢也不是說我們就一定要這樣子做是那當然啦我們必須要承認委員是押對保了"},{"start":9427.614,"end":9434.447,"text":"沒有沒有,總裁我更佩服你不是壓對保啦因為在這個年初的時候那個"},{"start":9436.941,"end":9444.387,"text":"麥克哈布比那時候就來台灣跟我一個朋友Dr."},{"start":9444.387,"end":9462.621,"text":"King他請他來台灣有多次的交流我們那時候就請他分析一下當然因為他女兒是阿肯色州的州長過去在川普的很核心所以當然他是分析了很多當然是支持"},{"start":9465.728,"end":9484.883,"text":"川普一定會當選所以當然都會有兩面也許賀錦麗當選事實上我們就應該要建立一個沙盤推演A當選是怎麼樣B當選是怎麼樣我們看到川普當選了以後就是他大力推動了虛擬貨幣不斷的上漲"},{"start":9488.906,"end":9508.237,"text":"跟那個Mask一樣他手上也持有很多的虛擬貨幣所以這個影響到台灣的未來從台灣看世界我們可以發現新加坡的人均GDP這15年來這一路的成長台灣有成長但是"},{"start":9509.544,"end":9518.594,"text":"這個差距越來越大面對未來新的挑戰本席想請教一下總裁對於這些虛擬貨幣的一些資產以及"},{"start":9523.089,"end":9542.577,"text":"金管會我們也是金融彭主委推動了整個亞太的一個資產管理中心至少一個目標嘛其中的這一環就是虛擬資產的處理這個你不可以去逃避的嘛那請問央行的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":9543.737,"end":9566.132,"text":"我覺得就是說據我了解就是說今晚會的態度他要對於虛擬貨幣開始要監管而且他有他的步驟步驟會不會太慢應該也不會啦應該也不會川普已經選上了你不要等他4年任期到了以後他要監管的意思也就是說他會注意到這一塊的一個發展"},{"start":9566.932,"end":9570.056,"text":"當然從經理的立場來看的話要讓他發展就是說正常的發展當然是要監管所以我覺得監管會在這一方面他是踏出了一個非常正確的一步我們希望這個步伐可以跟得上國際的潮流"},{"start":9588.535,"end":9608.544,"text":"總裁,你這樣講起來的話,就是你會站比較正面的態度,重新來思考比特幣在台灣的交易嗎?我想呢,既然他就說是要監管他的話呢,只要就說,第一個,他的交易呢,不要就說是洗錢啊"},{"start":9610.685,"end":9617.033,"text":"還有就是說洗錢防治對就是說洗錢的這些必須要注意還有就是說它是一個"},{"start":9618.655,"end":9621.617,"text":"美國能做我們要與時俱進美國能做我們要趕快要做他一定有他的戰略考量有他未來性的一個思考所以希望這一塊的話央行可以採取比較"},{"start":9645.873,"end":9667.841,"text":"開闊的心胸,比如說我請教一個,那外匯存底,裡面有沒有人民幣?我們人民幣也有一部分。你都有可以人民幣,你為什麼不可以有比特幣?人民幣跟比特幣那是不能相提並論的。那你知道,中台,你知道美國政府啊,他們國家國庫裡面有沒有比特幣?"},{"start":9668.936,"end":9675.061,"text":"沒有,應該是有,有我告訴你,它那個有是它沒收的啦,它是沒收的或是什麼的海關那些是沒收的啦,那不是說它的外圍存底去投資這個比特幣,不是我在想的,應該不是那表示它財產裡面有比特幣,如果不是資產的話,它就不會列在上面"},{"start":9693.316,"end":9702.287,"text":"因為他是資產所以他變成是美國政府的一個資產嘛我想那個是很小一部分另外啦這就"},{"start":9703.672,"end":9727.17,"text":"想的一個問題就是現在中國大陸對美國他持有多少美國的公債他也持了不少啊幾兆據我了解3.6兆他也是在日本之後的樣子日本持有很多啊日本持有很多所以他是我現在不能很確定以前"},{"start":9727.85,"end":9745.031,"text":"俄羅斯有沒有持有美國的公債應該有吧國債有啦好像一兆多吧我不曉得你知道那個俄烏戰爭的以後那俄羅斯對美國的這個國債的部分是不是就一筆勾銷了"},{"start":9747.749,"end":9753.494,"text":"他的資產在國外的資產就被凍結了那美國不是專辦了嗎?你打個帳就凍結,欠的錢就不要還了啊那他會不會為了美國的利益考量你大陸趕快打啊,台灣趕快打啊打完,那我們買的美國的債券"},{"start":9769.705,"end":9779.958,"text":"那我們是不是全部又一筆勾銷了?有沒有這個可能啊?為什麼誰說不會?基於什麼的理由?那為什麼俄羅斯會?萬一會的話怎麼辦?"},{"start":9788.568,"end":9791.73,"text":"萬一會的話?你覺得不會啊?那為什麼俄羅斯會?為什麼俄羅斯會?當然不能類比啊可是這個例子就是說他已經會了啊"},{"start":9805.296,"end":9818.132,"text":"那為什麼台灣就一定不會?不過你說美國因為委員就也知道就是說我們握有美國的債券蠻大的啦那你說他會來凍結我們的那個握有的那個我覺得是不可能的"},{"start":9823.479,"end":9830.826,"text":"那總裁你認識那個川普總統嗎當然我認識他他不認識我啦問題就是你認識他你不知道他在想什麼啊我也講過啊他要做什麼他明天也不會跟你講啊"},{"start":9838.813,"end":9851.325,"text":"所以現在我們最重要的就是保持自我的彈性不要完全百分之百受制於人是不是總裁對不對我們希望可以彈性多一點針對不確定性就是要彈性所以我們需要的就是"},{"start":9860.854,"end":9863.415,"text":"臺電因為虧損要撥補到一千億那大家我問起來朝野很多委員大家都反對"},{"start":9888.08,"end":9904.428,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":9904.908,"end":9918.742,"text":"去年央行提交國庫那個交了多少我們也是去年是我們今年是2000億去年去年是1850億的所以央行比較會賺1800億或1850億1800億的樣子我忘了那其他地方不行就拜託央行了"},{"start":9925.268,"end":9926.449,"text":"主席有請財政部莊部長好請財政部"},{"start":9958.636,"end":9981.685,"text":"委員好部長好美國總統大選由川普再度來當選總統由於過去川普一向反全球化主張貿易保護主義勢必對未來4年臺美雙方貿易的往來會有一些變數我國在拜登就任的期間跟美國有簽訂一項21世紀臺美貿易倡議"},{"start":9986.167,"end":10006.625,"text":"那臺美21世紀貿易倡議首批協定包括關務貿易便捷化那良好法制作業服務業國內規章反貪腐中小企業等那相關議題凸顯保護這個雙方的這個保障中小企業那希望能夠加強雙邊發展有意"},{"start":10009.247,"end":10027.876,"text":"出口到美國的企業、航商、貨運、中小、服務業等出口業等大有幫助請教部長川普再度當選之後台灣方面有什麼應對的方式可以繼續推動這個倡議第二個就是說首批協定是先就較為單純的項目來做討論"},{"start":10031.277,"end":10046.405,"text":"第二階段彈劾會聚焦彈劾聚焦的農業勞動還有環境方面的問題更是需要密集的去討論那我要強調是說臺美長期以來已建立許多合作的關係那包括"},{"start":10048.687,"end":10076.318,"text":"臺美貿易倡議、談判、EP、EPPD、TT、IC等本席希望這些努力都可以延續讓雙方繼續進行建設性的溝通深化貿易關係臺美21世紀貿易倡議要花更多的心思跟川普政府來做溝通推動臺美經貿合作邁向新高度這部分是不是請部長稍微說明一下"},{"start":10077.469,"end":10079.671,"text":"謝謝委員對於臺美21世紀的貿易倡議這個事情是由行政院的經貿辦公室在主責推動那這個倡議裡面跟財政部有關的就是貿易便捷化裡面有關通關的一個優化"},{"start":10094.807,"end":10103.71,"text":"那對於通關的部分包含法制面也好程序面也好我們的關務署大致上都已經完成所有的前置作業跟準備作業這個部分那對於川普總統就任以後我們的相關的因應的方式在我們今天的報告有提到我們是多面向的來做推動然後讓我們的"},{"start":10115.835,"end":10143.686,"text":"國內產業也好還有我們的行政部門也好都可以做一個更好的一些調整那比如說在我們通關的部分剛剛委員提到我們優質我們的通關環境比如我們讓我們的通關能夠數位化然後出口貨物更便捷通關我想這個對貿易來說都是好的那另外我們的報告裡面也有提到對於台美ADTA的一個簽署的部分我們也一直在和外交部以及駐美代表處也是和美國的行政部門以及國會"},{"start":10144.606,"end":10165.918,"text":"在合作努力的一個推動我想這個洽簽假設能夠完成所有的一個程序以後對台美雙方的一個投資也好貿易也好以及雙邊的一些業者的以及個人的營運對來說都是一個友善的一個環境投資環境那對我們台美之間的合作都是有非常大的一些幫助的"},{"start":10166.158,"end":10188.565,"text":"好,部長我再請教關稅就是最好的武器啦那尤其如果川普堅持運用保護主義那對世界其他國家對美國粗糙的國家包括台灣那課徵更多的關稅我們要如何去因應他反全球化主張貿易保護然後呢對"},{"start":10190.225,"end":10208.586,"text":"他的政見要對提高10%提高60%什麼這一大堆是說說而已嗎還是說我們要怎麼因應現在假設關稅提高的話那對於整個對台灣的產業要到美國出口的這些造成很大的危害要如何因應"},{"start":10210.178,"end":10221.921,"text":"謝謝委員對於川普在競選期間所提出的一個政見那要到他1月20正式就任以後然後他怎麼樣落實他的政見以及規模到多大以及時程上什麼時候來推動我想這個東西我們都會持續密切的觀察而且對我們國內來說其實行政院也會將來會組成專案小組大家會各部會一起來討論來做怎麼樣好的一個因應"},{"start":10238.585,"end":10250.946,"text":"這不是單一部會,單一部會就可以去做的一些事情他在競選的時候也多次提到要跟台灣收保護費台灣要美國保護就要付錢"},{"start":10251.809,"end":10276.4,"text":"那他認為說台灣國防預算應該提高到生產毛耳的10%兩兆六千億我知道很多人都有意見兩兆六千億這到底是誇張的言事、誇視還是親在公共的反正他上一任4年的總統他很多事情也是沒有履行嘛講話也做不高嘛那所以但是他這麼要求那我們應該要怎麼因應"},{"start":10277.629,"end":10296.211,"text":"這個部分我想國防部他也會去思考這個部分如果以GDP的一個10%來看就是剛剛委員所達到要兩兆多那以前目前來說我們的稅出規模其實還沒有辦法去因應這一個部分那真的還是要等到川普就任以後怎麼樣去把他的相關的政見"},{"start":10297.453,"end":10319.169,"text":"真正的落實以及它的規模到什麼程度因為我們看川普在執政過去在執政他堅持的美國優先還有經濟民族主義的延續那已經很多次用強硬的手段來對爭取他美國的利益對於這個北約的成員國要求的這些支出還有對於亞洲的盟國日本韓國等對於他們駐軍的費用"},{"start":10321.15,"end":10342.392,"text":"這些東西等於是說我們我想也台灣也不可能就能夠逃過這一劫我想要說告訴請部長對於未來台灣在國防在任何各方面對於美國的一個政策的變動一定要嚴加的注意"},{"start":10345.614,"end":10370.825,"text":"這個部分在全球化的時代下臺灣面對的不是只有貿易跟經濟的壓力處於兩岸美中強國之間那我們要地緣政治的一種挑戰要怎麼樣的來洞察雙方的關係的變化我們不要我們不要怎麼洞察罵點在這邊打這邊斬所以我們要自己要聰明一點好不好部長是的委員說得很適"},{"start":10372.685,"end":10378.73,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長請回座,那我再請主席,請金管會彭主委好,彭主委"},{"start":10383.246,"end":10410.486,"text":"主委好主委好主委剛剛延續剛剛那個我們民財委員說的這個比特幣現在是如日中天持續的飆漲尤其這個川普在競選時承諾要建立比特幣的戰備儲蓄然後還要指派青睞數位資產的這些監管主管那要把美國打造成一個數位資產的一個產業中心那在川普的勝選帶動之下比特幣的行情現在"},{"start":10411.847,"end":10428.654,"text":"不知道長成什麼樣那當比特幣價格不斷的上升更多的資金可能會湧入這個虛擬的一個貨幣市場來吸引投資者把資本流入那對於我們相對來講資產有限的"},{"start":10431.493,"end":10432.354,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10447.35,"end":10469.245,"text":"因此我認為說我們之前不斷的每一次的質詢當中我都有跟主委提到虛擬貨幣專法設立的速度還有我們的進程應該要加快雖然你這個工會已經有這個推動資歷規範但是還是稍嫌不足啦這個進度還是緩慢這是我們這個非常關心的議題"},{"start":10470.166,"end":10491.036,"text":"那無論是資本流動、金融穩定、監管體系、貨幣競爭還是這個網路安全虛擬貨幣市場的快速成長跟美國的支持都可能影響我國經濟跟金融的穩定那監管會是不是時刻都注意到市場的走向以應對這樣潛在的危險有沒有"},{"start":10491.616,"end":10515.138,"text":"是 謝委員喔 那個剛剛委員講的確實就是我們關注的啊剛剛委員也提到就是說我們對於虛擬幣的變化成熟這幾天的變化就可以看得出來像這類的投資工具的話波動非常的大會隨著消息面這樣的波動這也是我們在監管這個市場的時候我們按照我們的步驟其實我們並沒有慢相較於其他的國家我們並沒有慢"},{"start":10515.839,"end":10542.079,"text":"像比如說我們今年大概我們現在公布的那個虛擬資產幾個業態還有打炸的專法裡面就先把業態先把公布出來我們也承諾就是明年的6月會把我們的這個專法送進行政院就是因為這個這個是我們在台灣是全新的東西所以我們要必須非常謹慎但是我們也要看到觀察全球的發展的步伐就像我們在剛剛也開放了我們ETF的那個"},{"start":10542.759,"end":10566.635,"text":"所以比特幣的ETF其實也是在做一個試水溫的動作我想這部分全世界都在觀察那我們也是要比較穩健的來做這件事情那我們速度的部分應該是不會慢的好 這個主委要時刻注意齁是這個要來管控這個虛擬市場的走向喔因為時間有限那 這個好 以上齁 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":10568.595,"end":10569.655,"text":"好謝謝嚴寬委員現在我們那個休息10分鐘"},{"start":10599.718,"end":10601.426,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10618.172,"end":10624.216,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10643.466,"end":10649.308,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10662.554,"end":10670.596,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關"},{"start":10690.371,"end":10695.854,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10710.98,"end":10717.144,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10741.46,"end":10765.108,"text":"一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":10774.171,"end":10776.027,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":10785.523,"end":10791.687,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":10804.275,"end":10812.382,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關"},{"start":10831.682,"end":10837.064,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10858.728,"end":10862.455,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10874.921,"end":10883.063,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府預算有關"},{"start":10900.708,"end":10905.552,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":10920.154,"end":10933.522,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":10947.67,"end":10952.812,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策"},{"start":10968.687,"end":10972.651,"text":"民眾還有我還要搜尋的貨品貨品貨品貨品貨品貨品貨品"},{"start":10990.946,"end":11000.831,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":11024.042,"end":11037.694,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":11050.706,"end":11054.627,"text":"五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、五、"},{"start":11079.333,"end":11082.878,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":11094.847,"end":11112.856,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、"},{"start":11116.651,"end":11122.373,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":11146.609,"end":11152.992,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":11214.226,"end":11240.242,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。謝謝主席,我請央行總裁還有金融委員會彭主委還有證監所董事長"},{"start":11241.818,"end":11248.751,"text":"還有哪一位?政交所林董事長好,政交所黃瑋昭林秀明董事長"},{"start":11253.612,"end":11273.583,"text":"好,三位好我想今天主要針對川普重返白宮我們的財經部門到底準備好了沒在10月份的時候我們針對才有會針對亞洲資產管理中心的巡檔我提出三個要求第一個要求是調整國人每年從國外匯回的金額上限500萬"},{"start":11275.844,"end":11295.354,"text":"現在央行很快幾天之內就回應本席立刻把500萬調到1000萬第一個要求是是不是要跟進美國股市交割改採T加1然後上次主委說要研究研究完了沒美國都回來了你要不要告訴我一下我可不可以請證交所"},{"start":11296.954,"end":11297.735,"text":"第三個就是有關股市交易時間目前還沒有回報"},{"start":11316.795,"end":11339.548,"text":"好,那個包委員那時候也是一個月內回報齁,那我們也有做調查,我們已經跟旗局那邊一樣,就是說怎麼樣在新的世界發生變化之前,台灣應該跟上國際的腳步,這個部分要請三位主管的長官們趕快跟上這個部分所以很謝謝總裁的幫忙,那時間暫停,董事長請回"},{"start":11341.246,"end":11348.914,"text":"今天主要還是問到有關川普上任接下來的可能性現在的問題是目前為止"},{"start":11350.492,"end":11372.434,"text":"目前為止現在大家都在關心川普會對台灣的影響重要的是他現在用的共和黨的參議員盧比奧出任美國的國務卿這位參議員在2022年曾經說過中資銀行將來選擇使用中國或俄國的金融支付系統或俄銀的交易必須將其逐出美國的金融系統"},{"start":11373.573,"end":11384.187,"text":"這位強硬的抗中的國務卿上任之後總裁有沒有可能讓各國的去美元化的聯盟未來更加的強大"},{"start":11386.118,"end":11404.485,"text":"我覺得委員對於就是說這個國際的我們現在看起來就是這位將來會加速對這個就是說會因為就是說是他這個南方國家就是金磚國家plus幾個國家"},{"start":11407.407,"end":11419.199,"text":"他們要組成一個新的支付系統叫做BRIX將來去美元化跟用其他的金融貨幣它的對抗會更加劇對嗎?對,是,但是呢我跟委員報告我是擔心我們啦對,因為他"},{"start":11436.993,"end":11456.182,"text":"總裁這是你們今年的出國報告說面對多變的經濟金融情勢我們還是要小心或重思我們對於美元的依賴當然我們是美元為主的國家但是還是一樣不能夠把雞蛋都放在同一個籃子裡所以這個部分也是我今天要問的是將來這些"},{"start":11458.143,"end":11480.155,"text":"敵對的立場加劇,台灣必須要在中間找到我們自己的位置。是,對,委員當然,委員的這個建議是很好了。不過呢,我想呢,我會密切的說﹖你看阿文朗會密切的說,IMF7月的報告是全國有上百個國家採取一種或多種形式的去美元化。"},{"start":11480.735,"end":11504.968,"text":"那我們如果一直在什麼位置我們對自己還是要有備案好嗎?總裁有把握吧?他們打來打去不會影響到我們啦這個是你的對台灣人的承諾第二個是去美元化的部分川普很可愛他說他要狠話只要去美元化就要課百分之百的關稅將來全世界的關稅幣顯然會更高如果有這樣的狀況會不會影響到"},{"start":11507.489,"end":11524.98,"text":"台灣的包括將來我們在國際上我們也會受到相對的影響是我們不會受這個影響吧對啦不過他就說要課這個大概也是一個一個放話啦對啦親媽知道啦到時候才知道是啦好彭主委對你來說"},{"start":11527.263,"end":11552.517,"text":"將來的關稅壁壘還有他們對於所謂的通膨的控制會不會讓一些熱錢不會到台灣來會影響到我們將來的這些所謂的股市的交易或者是讓台灣的經濟產生停滯我想這個經濟上面的這些的不管是匯率或是通膨上面的這些變數也不是今天第一次這樣所以過去已經有這樣比如說剛剛提到通膨前一陣子的這個狀況跟比如說"},{"start":11554.978,"end":11579.707,"text":"那個利息的上升其實台灣都已經經過了一次的壓力測試我想這部分我們大概都有一些想法跟做法的因應所以我們的訴求就是財經部門要做好金融並推這是我們的日常這是平常就要做好的所以最後一個問題是總裁你是央行總裁現在川普可能對美國的聯準會不太滿意可能對他們希望能夠行政部門來對聯準會下手"},{"start":11581.227,"end":11584.711,"text":"台灣央行應該也是獨立單位你覺得聯準會的紛擾會不會影響到台灣?"},{"start":11589.167,"end":11614.728,"text":"我想應該是不會啦所以都不會你很有把握應該就是說美國因為川普他本身他的一個因為他可能覺得聯準會都不聽他的利率都是聯準會在決定基本上我總覺得就是說美國聯準會他的一個獨立性他一直以來從前面一直到現在他的獨立性都非常強的"},{"start":11616.211,"end":11621.449,"text":"特別是川普本身他就是學法律的"},{"start":11622.35,"end":11645.245,"text":"所以他也不會理他所以同樣的央行在台灣的立場也一樣維持我們的獨立性維持我們對於匯率跟相關台灣經濟穩定的力量是那中央銀行呢他我們是有對於貨幣信用跟這個匯率他的這個一個我們希望不管未來的狀況怎麼樣央行跟金管會都做好準備這個會是"},{"start":11647.466,"end":11648.107,"text":"是,請財政部部長"},{"start":11680.552,"end":11695.298,"text":"委員好部長一樣剛剛我們也聽到前面大家擔心的所以中華民國中央政府的總預算明年我們的預計是收歲入部分有達到3.1兆然後比113年增加了將近15%對吧"},{"start":11698.17,"end":11721.896,"text":"對這個是總於整體稅率的部分所以我比較好奇的是我們到底基於什麼理由認為我們的稅率可以暴增到這麼高你的計算方式跟你們的預估的來源是什麼委員報告這裡面我們的稅率會增加15%裡面最主要是稅客收入是成長19%這最主要是稅客收入稅客收入超增今年超增了"},{"start":11722.076,"end":11722.857,"text":"所以我們以後都會在這個3.1兆之上嗎?"},{"start":11737.19,"end":11738.891,"text":"一百一十年其實經濟很好一百一十年其實經濟很好一百一十年其實經濟很好"},{"start":11753.2,"end":11766.67,"text":"一年的成長率有6.6%一百一十二年再能夠好就是因為一百一十年好所以現在就是我們今年好像沒有預計的那麼好但是你可以預計到高達15.7%我們是覺得蠻勇敢的"},{"start":11770.433,"end":11796,"text":"但是你覺得做不做得到?裡面主要增加的比較多的是銀索稅的部分因為今年11、3年的我們的銀索稅跟1、2年的預算比是相當好是衰退的因為1、2年的出口不好所以盈利事業的獲利並不是很好所以我們在11、3年在銀索稅的部分交1、2年的預算數是減增的是減增的是負數的"},{"start":11797.48,"end":11820.908,"text":"因為對我們來說我們希望這麼預估有兩個理由第一個你當然是根據你們的推估但是我不希望是因為新政府上任所以他沒有用沒有所謂的前瞻預算等特別預算然後在預算裡面用這樣的方式暴增來增加你們本來想要做的事情可能更多了但是沒有辦法用特別預算然後匡列在公務預算裡面"},{"start":11821.348,"end":11850.911,"text":"不是的,我們在稅客收入的編列上我們是有專案小組在還有籌組那個專家學者一起來參加來討論按照各個稅務的特性來做籌編的所以我想重點是希望今年的榮景可以持續的延續然後也可以達到我們稅出稅入平衡那最重要的是我們還是希望中央跟地方的財政要好好的溝通分配這個超徵應該是全民共享而不是只有單單的中央政府"},{"start":11851.671,"end":11865.844,"text":"經濟的成長是很重要的事,謝謝。好,那就麻煩,超增的部分麻煩還是給我們今年的相關的數字,好嗎?今年的執行的狀況。對,今年的退步到年底可能會超過預算數的部分。好,那就麻煩部長提供,謝謝。謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝珊珊。接下來我們請吳麗華委員執行"},{"start":11872.658,"end":11901.305,"text":"主席在這裡跟大家做一個報告中午我們不休息那就是維持開會12點我們開放就是在會場用餐謝謝吳麗花謝謝主席有請金管會主委及央行總裁央行總裁金管會彭主委大家午安今天財委會特別安排"},{"start":11902.557,"end":11922.934,"text":"美國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣可能的影響以及對策的專報那最主要是因為我們也看到川普一當選緊接著上場的就是聯合國第29屆的氣候大會COP 29那這一次很低迷"},{"start":11924.09,"end":11949.313,"text":"因為主要的像九大國家他們都沒有參與所以呢讓人感到憂心忡忡是不是覺得說因為川普他的一個降低減碳的承諾會不會影響到未來全球的氣候政策那顯然很多的學者其實也都很悲觀覺得綠色經濟的前景呢是堪慮、瀕危的"},{"start":11951.055,"end":11957.147,"text":"我們也看到這個市場也確實反映出來因為他一當選"},{"start":11958.959,"end":11981.646,"text":"做空綠色能源就大賺13億美元讓綠色經濟也是慘賠所以看起來好像真的如此今天想要先請我們金管會主委跟央行總裁表示一下你們的看法跟現在傳得沸沸揚揚的大家的看法一樣嗎?"},{"start":11982.924,"end":12009.099,"text":"是,報告委員,謝謝委員的關心喔,我想金管會剛剛頒布了就是我們綠色金融與轉型行動方案很明確的揭示了我們接下來的所有的目標而且我們有關減碳的路徑也都已經在已經成為我們必須遵守的法律跟目標我想這個部分呢即便我們有很多這樣的一個對這次選舉結果的這些的分析但是至少在金管會在那邊我們沒有做任何的改變"},{"start":12010.841,"end":12030.049,"text":"總裁央行這邊我覺得就是說就我們台灣來講的話稱如彭主委所講的基本上這一條路就是說這一條路就是說要green的這一條路台灣應該還是要持續做的"},{"start":12031.029,"end":12047.394,"text":"還是要持續做不管未來遇到什麼樣的挑戰這是一個正確的方向必須走的方向那實際上也真的不是空穴來風因為他任命的環保署長就是反環保的"},{"start":12049.975,"end":12066.885,"text":"他第一次當選的時候就退出巴黎協定他在競選的時候他的團隊也說如果再次當選還要再次退出所以他的口號也是嘛你剛剛說Green Green Green他是Drill Baby Drill"},{"start":12067.185,"end":12067.966,"text":"是是是是沒有錯"},{"start":12085.121,"end":12108.494,"text":"未來他們很多的一些關於氣候法案等等我相信也都會被取消看起來他們的政策走向是這樣我們有我們的政策走向可是我在今天的專報當中金管會、央行隻字沒有提到綠色經濟所以我是在想說是不是跟你們剛才的回應一樣你們對於川普的當選"},{"start":12111.796,"end":12137.121,"text":"覺得對我們現在要走的綠色經濟完全不會有影響是這樣嗎?是啦,我想最主要的也就是說綠色因為前面的那些因為現在整個的都是在focus就是說焦點都是在他的關稅他的貿易政策是他的貿易政策這是最對影響全球的是最重大的"},{"start":12137.641,"end":12138.442,"text":"二、關稅政策相較之下好像是比較次要"},{"start":12154.15,"end":12156.371,"text":"所以現在就是說包括我們的報告裡面我們也會比較就是focus焦點的就是在貿易政策所以在這一點才不會去提不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是說台灣在這個議題上會不會受到它的影響基本上就陳主委彭主委在講"},{"start":12175.376,"end":12197.24,"text":"那因為央行是管國際進出口貿易全球的景氣嘛通膨嘛這些都是央行是你們要去注意的嘛把關的嘛那金管會當然我們這邊有ESG的一個綠色金融業務那我先請教一下金管會主委就是這樣"},{"start":12200.069,"end":12215.417,"text":"今晚會下面有個探交易所是,剛剛成立對,那未來會有什麼衝擊?因應呢?剛剛提到的是說我們現在都是買國外的嘛對,我們現在是待會可以請那個交易所董事長來補充說明"},{"start":12216.778,"end":12239.649,"text":"第一個有關我先回答委員剛剛那個問題就是說為什麼今天我們沒有提到綠色金融的問題因為今天主要是確實剛剛講我們做整體架構的分析並沒有針對個別產業的影響接下來就很多人有提到說比如對綠能、軍工或什麼會有不一樣的影響我想今天因為我們的主題沒有涵蓋到這邊剛剛提到委員也提到就是說這個"},{"start":12240.689,"end":12260.8,"text":"美國畢竟是國際的非常大的一個國家跟影響力他的政策必然會影響到未來很多的發展我剛才說明說我們現在我們的政策沒有改變但是未來在執行這些問題的時候呢一定也會受到一些相關的影響但是我覺得全世界有很多不一樣的看法"},{"start":12261.98,"end":12285.951,"text":"這本來就是其實美國在過去也很多的政策跟世界是有所不同的因為我們現在環境部我們也都開始要來徵收所謂的這些都已經開始在我們太有價的時代要來臨了是我們的法律已經規定這樣那我們面對歐盟面對美國他們完全不一樣的一個政策那對於我們現在其實我們算起步很晚"},{"start":12286.531,"end":12300.342,"text":"那正要開始又面臨這樣的一個大國的衝擊那金管會這邊看交易所有沒有什麼樣的一個因應對策這個都是我們很想了解那沒有關係我是想說一個月內要給我這樣的一個報告因為我們很多原住民"},{"start":12305.225,"end":12320.334,"text":"這個對於自然碳會的參與那未來碳有價的時代那我們能夠有什麼樣的一個利基我想這個都是我這個地方很需要了解也要幫我們的族人去看要怎麼樣來協助那我再請教一下就是我們央行因為很多人就擔心嘛就是我們現在碳費會開徵嘛那物價可能"},{"start":12331.44,"end":12358.794,"text":"大家也預期可能也會上揚那未來像美國如果限縮他的減碳他對於台灣進出口的貿易我們也在評估有沒有什麼優勢還是劣勢那未來他這樣的一個比較利益是不是還存在等等那不曉得總裁這邊您的看法如何因為我們也看到他在加重關稅的部分是全球加重可是"},{"start":12359.534,"end":12376.138,"text":"中國又特別重60%那偏偏我們的最大出口國家又是中國所以這個部分我們就會去想那未來我們怎麼樣防範中國的低價傾銷那對於我們會不會影響"},{"start":12381.37,"end":12407.323,"text":"我想是這樣就是說對中國會不會對我們台灣請消這個我沒有就是說目前我沒有掌握到這個訊息所以我沒辦法來回答委員那至於就是說我們出口到美國去出口到其他的地方去會不會受到就是說這個這個碳減碳的這個影響基本上到美國美國跟"},{"start":12409.924,"end":12425.636,"text":"跟歐洲就稍微有點不一樣歐洲呢現在已經是他開始他的關稅他就要看就是說你的產品裡面那個含碳的那個成分是多少他要開始要扣這個稅阿美國好像我據我了解好像還沒有"},{"start":12427.158,"end":12450.074,"text":"這個就是說對於我們的進出國廠商就必須要注意我現在所能夠了解的就只能這樣那他的目的也是希望鼓勵他們自己買國內的嘛對啦另外一個也就是說要鼓勵每一個國家對於這個減碳要積極的去努力的去做那這樣子因為我"},{"start":12451.656,"end":12475.104,"text":"要跟總裁您說明一下因為勞動部那邊剛剛有一個資料國內五大缺工第一名營建第二名製造然後第三名住宿餐飲第四名批發零售第五名醫療保健社福工作這五名恰恰是原住民從事的前五大行業"},{"start":12476.845,"end":12495.398,"text":"國內的五大缺工行業的排名跟原住民從事的前五大行業一模一樣那我們來看一下營建工程跟製造業那因為我們也是高度仰賴國外的原料嘛那我不曉得說這個未來這個營建工程業特別是製造業那對我國的影響會是什麼"},{"start":12496.459,"end":12499.922,"text":"是不是可以請我們央行跟金環會這邊在一個月之內給我提出一個報告"},{"start":12524.321,"end":12539.57,"text":"好,謝謝總裁、謝謝主委、謝謝主席是,謝謝立法那接著請陳益臻召委質詢謝謝主席,請這個楊總裁是,請總裁來"},{"start":12554.005,"end":12559.95,"text":"川普上任後媒體推估有6項經濟政策改變統一增全部進口商品對美國進口增10到20%對中國大陸增60%減稅永久化推動石油天然氣開台對綠燈產業的影響21%的企業稅降到15%遣返非法移民"},{"start":12579.747,"end":12588.716,"text":"免職誘導,還有他當然會對他們的金融政策有很強大的干預,所以這個當然就是可能的政策改變,那我們看一下這個"},{"start":12591.024,"end":12618.298,"text":"我們的這個他的採用他如果這樣用採用這個弱勢美元的這個做法因為他覺得美元甚至會減少他們的競爭力他提高關稅然後出口的時候他們要出口要降低要讓他們美元貶值讓他們價格有競爭力這個用貨物貶值嘛來做這個促進那個出口那請問這個他如果採取這個弱勢美元政策對我們的匯市還有外匯存底的影響呢"},{"start":12619.958,"end":12640.288,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上川普都是一直認為他要採行的是弱勢美元的這個政策但是你看看就是說從他9月底到現在包括他上任之後美元沒有弱勢美元反而是強起來"},{"start":12642.148,"end":12644.769,"text":"所以美國的川普的弱勢美元到目前為止是沒有實現的"},{"start":12666.199,"end":12670.263,"text":"不過他還沒有上任各國的貨幣競點的情況下對我們國家的經濟成長現在不錯出口也很暢旺外遊整體也增加從5110年5000多到1112年5700今年9月已經也快5800了也一直成長"},{"start":12689.641,"end":12692.343,"text":"你說他不一定會踩弱勢嗎?因為說實在的有些時候美元是由市場來決定的不是由總統來決定的"},{"start":12702.334,"end":12721.286,"text":"政策影響很大貨幣政策當然國家的貨幣政策影響很大從他開始九月底一直到現在他美元就一直強這個我是想說會不會影響到比如說我們出口的這個有一些影響貨幣政策影響到出口那銀行當然有時候要兼顧出口跟這個相關的這個"},{"start":12722.807,"end":12722.827,"text":"綠綠的"},{"start":12740.117,"end":12744.278,"text":"我們的利率還是由我們本身的通膨的情況他的未來的情況是怎麼樣來決定我們的利率那你現在採取的好像感覺都是比較低利率"},{"start":12758.562,"end":12759.463,"text":"憲政委員會議中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":12779.677,"end":12804.934,"text":"因為我看到一本書就是這個陳南光的新書說在談致富的特權裡頭陳崇他說央行債務的成績就以那個外匯成績很好啦出口很暢旺啦但是會攸關致命的房價意思裡面的論點就是說雙利雙低策略當然幫助出口但影響廠商升級貨幣供給增加資金成本又數低點就會推升"},{"start":12805.714,"end":12834.616,"text":"房屋價格你怎麼看這件事情我想是他的說法啦你不認同他的說法就對了不認同當然不認同你不認同陳崇的說法沒有基礎沒有基礎他的分析沒有基礎沒有基礎嗎這樣我國的利率這麼低事實上幫助那個來來來 央行請問總裁你不認同他的看法那我請教你你的第4你的9月19號10月19號9月19第7波這個那個信用管制措施以後有看到房價有降嗎"},{"start":12835.828,"end":12837.209,"text":"但是問題是在於報告委員但是問題是就是說那個時候房價一直在上漲對不對所以我們的道德稅5跟第7波的時候最重要的是要扭轉它的一個"},{"start":12851.817,"end":12853.799,"text":"因為你的策略是不是用得不夠啊這樣"},{"start":12868.978,"end":12887.89,"text":"我總覺得就是說你不是說你的政策下去他的房價就馬上下來那不可能的你預計什麼時候會有一個結果大概讓百姓覺得說房價總算比較接近到好像的確有點下跌百姓比較有點負擔的錢我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":12889.231,"end":12898.317,"text":"對先,好,這個怎麼回事,講到房價就開始有噪音了,等一下我,小三等一下,請那個看一下那個什麼,請等一下,什麼問題勒?房價是關鍵字是嗎?"},{"start":12921.083,"end":12926.296,"text":"因為收音的時候可能會有會把這些收下來就不清楚了"},{"start":12935.167,"end":12957.081,"text":"所以,楊總裁所以我知道你的意思你當然希望是可能比較像一種軟著陸的方式嘛就不要說一下子往下但是這個政策如果沒有成效的話我們事實上業界的或是普遍在產業界來看的話他會覺得說也許太低廉的資金取得的成本也是造成這個這個房價推升的一個因素這也是央行這個我們前院長那個陳聰所說的嘛這個是有什麼問題呢"},{"start":12968.698,"end":12983.548,"text":"我跟委員報告9月19現在還沒兩個月了沒關係選擇性金融管制下去了以後呢你看看它的整個的一個就是說是要房價上漲因為9月19到現在還沒兩個月嘛那我們現在應該是在比如說一季的時間9月19到大概比如說三個月"},{"start":12991.494,"end":12994.536,"text":"我們有道德說服請他們一個一年之內要做一個調整"},{"start":13013.909,"end":13032.811,"text":"不要把資源太集中在房地產這是第一個那這個呢他就必須要調整這個是第一個第二個呢我們做這樣的一個第七波下去的時候確實啊確實能夠讓第一個他的道德說服他的執行能夠落實"},{"start":13033.892,"end":13060.616,"text":"我會想像到12月1屆的時候你要提一個大概有個報告出來來看是什麼結果主席為什麼時間倒數從一分鐘開始算應該是兩分鐘還沒有啊你的時間還有我剛剛OK好那來再請問這個沒關係你再講一下好了沒關係請再說一下就是說我說這個9月19開始嘛那現在你是希望說現在已經先暫停了大家覺得房價會上漲的迷思了嘛你覺得有達到這個效果"},{"start":13061.576,"end":13084.892,"text":"問題房價有沒有下跌我跟委員報告我現在就是說現在我如果說看網路來看的話他們的分析我不曉得是不是對啦他們認為就是說現在是已經停止在那邊但是呢他的價格的調整呢他說恐怕要到明年中"},{"start":13085.819,"end":13109.88,"text":"明年中才有辦法就是說慢慢的調整下來那這個我們也是希望我們是這樣子的這個是我們的希望我想請問另外一個問題這個20元硬幣流通我想請教在場的各位有誰除了中央硬幣廠的話誰看過20元的硬幣我不是請教你啦我剛有拿到這個有看過的請舉手"},{"start":13111.874,"end":13135.475,"text":"一位?那邊是中央銀行啊?那邊是財政部的是嗎?哪個部會的?央行的是嗎?央行的!所以20元硬幣只在央行內部流通嗎?除了央行以外,這還有誰看過?一、二、三...除了央行以外,他不能都沒看過20元的硬幣啊?主席有看過嗎?沒看過,我也沒看過齁那我想說這個,這個應該是真的吧?這個貨幣是真的嗎?"},{"start":13138.678,"end":13140.379,"text":"現在詐騙很多嘛,現在如果店家收到這個不會覺得這是詐騙嗎?"},{"start":13157.967,"end":13159.268,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說全世界呢"},{"start":13183.118,"end":13204.594,"text":"的二字坨的貨幣呢流通都不是很好對那我們為什麼要繼續發行現在又走上電子知識指代啊這個就是說你看日本也是一樣的那個倫敦也是一樣的都已經知道其他各國都發行了但是他不能就說他的流通少那你就不發行那為什麼要發行流通少為什麼要發行發行給大家收藏嗎因為要給人家選擇啊"},{"start":13208.837,"end":13228.273,"text":"選擇 因為大家都不用啊那也不是說不用那只是流透 發行來讓大家典藏發行來在央行內部流透央行多用20元我是問你政策啦我對硬幣廠你還要繼續發行嗎繼續發行那你要更多的宣導不然大家以為是假的好不好很漂亮但以為是假的這個跟電子支付實在有點背道而馳"},{"start":13236.699,"end":13238.82,"text":"麻煩有請金管會的主委政交所董事長政交所董事長"},{"start":13266.21,"end":13266.394,"text":"委員好"},{"start":13273.725,"end":13296.305,"text":"兩位好上市櫃公司的公司治理我相信是一個非常重要的事項不管是主委還是董事長對於上市櫃公司做好公司治理保障投資大眾的權益資訊的透明、公開這些都是ABC不用多說了我們在公司治理的時候遇到特定有政治背景的人標準會改變嗎?"},{"start":13298.908,"end":13323.322,"text":"報告委員這個規定就是規定應該不會改變應該不會改變嘛那我們具體啊來看一下有一家上市公司啊他的策略長4月16號辭去職務依照規定要不要發重訊這個要很熟啦金管會的主委這裡面我們重訊有一定的規定啦這部分的話應該是所以要不要發重訊"},{"start":13325.935,"end":13350.691,"text":"來,我秀給你看啦台灣證券交易所股份有限公司對有家證券上市公司重大訊息查證及公開處理程序策略長人事變動要不要發重訊?要嘛?對吧?是的那如果沒有發重訊要不要處罰?要要嘛?那我問題就來囉郭志輝辭職喔他一開始沒有發重訊喔"},{"start":13355.868,"end":13359.337,"text":"被人家檢舉到5月才補發政交署有處罰嗎?從業公司的因為有人跟我具名檢舉啦"},{"start":13367.213,"end":13391.699,"text":"他們跟政交所檢舉啊結果政交所回給他們的函看不下去啊我們一件事情一件事情來啊剛已經建立了嘛要發重訊嘛沒有發該處罰嘛那請問罰了什麼來請說明報告委員齁那通常我們來講的話第一次的話我們都是會發文去警告所以這個有發文警告叫他以後不可以這樣了有對第二個"},{"start":13396.392,"end":13422.99,"text":"我先講之前我還在財政委員會的時候我非常注意這種事情像已經釀成大風暴的盧新碧案當初該公告的東西一拖拉鼓沒有公告當初證交所一開始也是放水但我在財政委員會質詢了以後那個時候證交所董事長是施俊錡他該處理就處理了"},{"start":13424.025,"end":13448.377,"text":"我希望政交所標準要一致啊是好第二個你說這個第一次不要罰我們給他警告就好了跟郭志輝個人沒有關係不是因為他出任了經濟部部長不敢罰你們都是按照標準雖然他的公司沒有依照規定發重訊但是第一次只警告不處罰好來第二個他辭職以前"},{"start":13453.459,"end":13470.385,"text":"他的持股轉量事後要不要申報報告要要嘛對他有申報嗎他有申報嗎欸我是不是容我們查一下再"},{"start":13471.769,"end":13487.962,"text":"你們的資訊掌握很差啊我有再說一次啊已經有人檢舉到你們證交所檢舉到你們證交所啊你們扭曲規定跟人家擦肢抹粉啊說他已經辭職了啦他4月辭職啦所以5月不用申報"},{"start":13489.953,"end":13510.424,"text":"來看一下政交法25條的規定看一下你們對於上市公司內部人持股權交易問答及宣傳我在月中解認次月要不要依照政交法25條規定辦理事後申報要還是不要要要嘛對阿如果沒有申報怎麼辦要出發怎麼發"},{"start":13517.574,"end":13524.096,"text":"哇你政交法實在不熟來來來看一下看一下看一下政交法178條違反25條的規定24萬元以上485萬元以下的罰款可以了嘛這個就沒有什麼啊他是第一次所以就放掉"},{"start":13538.669,"end":13560.856,"text":"這個就是要依法處罰嘛你說你不了解狀況沒有關係我給你時間回去了解我給你時間回去了解但請一併處理說為什麼已經有人去檢舉了你們證交所隨便發一個函給人家打發掉說他已經解認了啦所以不用申報"},{"start":13562.401,"end":13582.758,"text":"阿政交法25條依照你們跟所有上市櫃公司重要的董總上課規定的內容這就是你們政交所印的宣傳集阿阿奇怪了怎麼遇到特定公司的時候該處罰沒有罰還用公文幫人家擦脂抹粉這樣對嗎"},{"start":13584.441,"end":13608.064,"text":"報告委員,這件事情等我回去查以後馬上跟委員...查清楚齁!證交所該處理處理第二件事情當初是誰這樣回函的?讓我們的投資大眾檢舉以後心寒啦我們的金管會我們的證交所是遇到有特定政治背景的人整個骨頭都軟喔"},{"start":13609.468,"end":13625.579,"text":"一個禮拜之內一個禮拜之內回復可以嗎可以好謝謝黃國昌委員那請證交所那個快速那個回應那個黃國昌委員的一個質疑那接著請黃曼凱委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請我們央行總裁央行總裁"},{"start":13643.984,"end":13660.94,"text":"黃委員早上午到現在本席也特別鉅細迷離看了一下你今天的一個報告其中召委的這個題目也講到是說川普總統的一個部分我想先肯定一下就是說你們有把第一任川普總統的"},{"start":13662.918,"end":13692.013,"text":"政策、方向以及面臨到的問題跟現在第二任有可能的一個狀況來做一個彙整這本席予以肯定為什麼因為畢竟雖然大家在講是說這個難以預測可是總是他已經當過一任的總統嘛那既然已經當過一任的美國總統的話他確實他第一任不管他的方向、做法以及策略跟第二任可能有規則可循不過我想在舊教裡面"},{"start":13692.833,"end":13707.445,"text":"比較重要的地方在於是 你的第16頁喔未來觸及台灣﹐ 觸及美方的前兩項檢視標準被列為觀察名單成常態主要是講是說因為2018年開始美中兩大強權﹐所以造成說台灣對於美國的貿易順差持續的擴大"},{"start":13714.086,"end":13724.174,"text":"2018年到現在之後,到底擴大到多少的一個程度?對,所以呢,所以我們這個圖啊,也有秀出了就往上升嘛,是不是?對,往上升,從109億到633億,這個就是"},{"start":13730.759,"end":13758.02,"text":"因為他這個不是只有商品而已還有包括服務商品服務兩樣那其中我特別看到是說你的第一個兩項檢視標準那有一個5的一個備註小字啊下面就講說三項檢視標準裡面第一對美商品跟服務貿易順差於150億美金是不是150億是多出來還是從以前到現在可能我們就有這樣的一個"},{"start":13759.26,"end":13787.068,"text":"我們以前是沒有150億所以以前就是說所以你看從2018年以後我們就慢慢的一直增加到633億所以以前是沒有那現在是越來越來越來所以就是說這一項所以這150億是從什麼時候開始增加他在上一次幾年的時候他就開始因為這是你的報告啊你的報告2015年的時候他就提出就是說要150億"},{"start":13788.688,"end":13817.788,"text":"2015年就提出要150億對好然後一直到現在所以說150億是美方那邊有提出的一個數字對是不是是沒有錯好那您看第17頁是台灣你的第三點台灣縮小對美國貿易順差的建議做法對這是您具體建議的央行總裁具體建議我們政府可能要怎麼做是擴大對美的採購能源對農產品跟軍品來縮小對美的貿易順差對是沒有錯"},{"start":13818.948,"end":13843.257,"text":"好150億這個數字有沒有覺得很耳熟蛤?很耳熟阿最近好像在哪裡有聽過150億這個數字前兩天三大報頭版頭有沒有看到是三大報頭版頭寫什麼寫說民進黨政府有可能要跟美國提出軍品的採購清單是150億美金阿"},{"start":13849.278,"end":13867.558,"text":"約合台幣5000億左右然後其中裡面包括F35包括愛國者飛彈等等大家那個時候覺得好奇啊這怎麼新聞怎麼來的外媒先講是說外媒先報導但之後第二天三大報頭版頭都一樣處理我們第一次看到三大報頭版頭針對一個外媒報導"},{"start":13870.981,"end":13886.825,"text":"總統府否認說沒有這個事情沒有放話國防部部長也來立法院否認說沒有這個事情甚至國防部部長講說國防部沒有所謂的採購清單但是總裁我覺得你好像比較是一個講實話的人"},{"start":13888.866,"end":13904.508,"text":"因為就你來講美國服務貿易順差達150億美元然後你們建議要對美國縮小貿易順差的建議做法就是採購美國的能源、農產品或是軍品怎麼那麼巧"},{"start":13905.849,"end":13925.198,"text":"川普當選不到一個禮拜馬上我們偉大的政府就放消息說要採購150億美元的軍品但是怎樣對美國交代真的是還沒有人家還沒有上任但是交保護費我們已經想著要把白花花的鈔票要奉上了是不是"},{"start":13925.898,"end":13933.14,"text":"數字怎麼會那麼剛好我也覺得很納悶我們的逆差150億馬上我們要補一個150億希望我們能夠採購150億而且當時我也講如果說我們一講說150億的話那會不會也讓美國或是我們在國防部我還是再一次強調軍品採購的部分如果說是我們需要的武器我們一定大力支持"},{"start":13954.645,"end":13974.49,"text":"我們也希望中華民國有建軍有捍衛自主的能力但是如果說我們自己就先底牌講說我們準備了150要去購買武器的話那未來在溝通談判的當中美方軍品採購是美國的賣方市場不是買方市場所以未來在軍品採購的時候會不會增加我們談判的難度"},{"start":13975.591,"end":13987.31,"text":"這邊是說有可能他會以150億往上起算底價就150億因為他是要說你已經你們三大報都已經講了台灣已經準備150億要來買武器啊所以未來他可能開價160、170億"},{"start":13992.605,"end":14007.494,"text":"總裁,你的建議欸所以感覺起來是政府部沒有聽到你的建議沒有,不是你建議縮小美國順差的建議做法就是要採購軍品然後又看到了美國對我們的這個有150億美元"},{"start":14012.213,"end":14025.556,"text":"然後我們現在被列為觀察名單是就是因為有這150億這個可能是巧合啦謝謝洪孟楷委員總裁是不是補書面的資料給洪孟楷委員好嗎我不知道總裁可以給我什麼樣的書面資料是給我們的採購清單證實這個總裁應該是不能辦法對因為是超過時間的我一數啦朝委站起來我尊重"},{"start":14041.839,"end":14063.135,"text":"我意思是說其實我相信你這一個報告是合理客觀的數據那如果說是這樣的話政府部門真的要做什麼事情應該要讓國人知道國人有知的權利今天如果真的是川普政府他上任他真的要求提出什麼樣要求國人也應該知道"},{"start":14064.176,"end":14064.876,"text":"接著請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":14095.742,"end":14096.564,"text":"好,謝謝趙偉,請讓楊總裁是,總裁"},{"start":14106.188,"end":14125.379,"text":"總裁好,川普明年1月20日才正式上台,現在全世界都在密切關切他的口口聲聲所提到的過去種種經貿政治措施會不會實施。我想本席想請問在座還有楊總裁,是不是已經開始沙盤推演川普正當對年關前的各行各業影響的因應措施?"},{"start":14125.999,"end":14127.5,"text":"楊總裁,請問一下未來台幣會升值嗎?估計升多少?"},{"start":14151.135,"end":14153.437,"text":"1985年1月20雷根第二任任期開始的半年多同年9月在G7會議上簽訂的影響到今天都還沒有完全消失的廣場協議"},{"start":14171.155,"end":14196.275,"text":"二零二五年的川普剛好是40年後就要效法他所崇拜的雷根展開一系列的經貿、金融甚至是國安種種都比雷根可能更猛的一個措施尤其川普比雷根我覺得是更性急啦那本席想請教楊總裁很怪台幣的匯率對美的貿易順差絕對是重頭戲我想剛剛很多的委員都在關心這件事情不知40年前廣場協議簽訂時楊總裁正在英國伯明罕大學攻讀"},{"start":14200.498,"end":14216.071,"text":"博士學位40年後主掌台灣的央行是不是有所認知跟妥善的準備我想就是說委員談到這個我覺得委員對以前的國際的經貿你也蠻注意的事實上沒有錯那個時候是1985年的時候是廣場協議讓美元貶值那是那時候的時空跟現在的時空我總覺得好像不大一樣"},{"start":14230.302,"end":14252.023,"text":"不太一樣但又有點相似我想馬克吐温說歷史不會重演但會常常押韻相隔剛好40年後明天川普很有可能就推出廣場協議2.0到時台幣匯率一定會大幅升值對美貿易貨差順差這個一定會被川普團隊要求去做改善所以我想40年後從博明喊"},{"start":14252.663,"end":14271.708,"text":"到這個羅斯福路一段二號的楊總裁到底有沒有什麼定國安邦的政策我想就是說委員我今天我才會想到就是說委員提出這個廣場協議讓我回想到那個時候的時空背景不過我本身我還是非常謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":14272.284,"end":14275.228,"text":"那這個呢至於他會不會就是說第二個會有廣場協議的2.0這個我們要密切注意第二個呢對我們的這個新台幣的匯率呢我們也會非常注意那至於就是說會有怎麼樣的impact我現在也沒辦法來跟委員報告"},{"start":14289.144,"end":14318.303,"text":"好當然但是我們希望能夠提前準備一定要去預想一下第二任的川普第二任他只做到第二任大家都知道會不會有雷厲風行我們不能夠預測但是我們可以想像有可能所以我們當然要去準備嘛那當然要借重您的專長我們希望能夠預先去想到任何的可能性好不好9月19日兩週前要宣布啊梁總裁2018年2月25日上任以來第七波"},{"start":14319.023,"end":14334.518,"text":"打房政策大家都說楊總裁第7波打房是2010年央行開始以來最嚴厲的一次請問楊總裁在這次第7波最嚴厲的打房措施你認為有效能夠把房價打下來嗎?如果有效什麼時候能夠看到效果?"},{"start":14335.134,"end":14336.395,"text":"我想我們當時我們推出第7波的那個我在我們的業務報告你們上一次我來財委會報告我也講到就是說我們有三個目的第一個目的就是說"},{"start":14350.828,"end":14352.269,"text":"二、審查中華民國114年度中華民國114年度中華民國114年度中華民國114年度"},{"start":14372.8,"end":14384.685,"text":"會讓就是說第一次購買房屋的人呢比較容易拿到資金這是第二個第三個目的呢就是說要讓你的房價的一個預期心理呢能夠還轉回來那"},{"start":14386.886,"end":14388.907,"text":"那現在我總覺得到目前為止我們評估的結果我們這三個目的好像到目前為止是有達到這個目的看起來有脈絡但是我還是要提醒彭總裁從2010年開始打房總共4波"},{"start":14403.353,"end":14412.839,"text":"到了2016年看到一些效果開始有點鬆綁結果房價指數又立刻竄升短短3到4年大概2019到2020房價指數超過2014的最高峰上次彭總裁歷經6年打房而楊總裁從2020到現在打房到今天也是快滿了4年不過楊總裁已發動了7波彭總裁只有4波"},{"start":14427.887,"end":14444.294,"text":"所以我希望這個部分還是要稍微提醒你我們希望能夠趕快看到效果全國人民都在期待總裁您是重擔責任那我們也希望你能夠發揮到所有國人所期待的一些效果謝謝你的鼓勵謝謝評委接著請楊瓊英委員諮詢"},{"start":14457.286,"end":14459.412,"text":"謝謝主席首先邀請楊總裁是,請楊總裁"},{"start":14468.227,"end":14494.666,"text":"韓委員早不早了吳安辛苦你了總裁大家都非常的關心川普當選後呢那麼強勢的美元會再現但是似乎整個國際訊息萬變雖然大家這麼看但是我個人認為也不盡然會如此因為波動會很大"},{"start":14495.486,"end":14498.609,"text":"如果以波動大來註解應該會呈現但是到底會強勢不強勢我個人認為還有待觀察我真的今天是能夠跟楊總裁有相同的同感所以我們就實際來討論"},{"start":14518.046,"end":14521.367,"text":"所以新台幣到目前為止連兩天來貶但是我們這一周也在測試32.5的卡關保衛戰這個機會所以近期這個熱錢如海嘯般的瘋狂的匯出那我們又是海島型的國家又是一個出口型的國家"},{"start":14543.815,"end":14564.728,"text":"一旦匯率過度的波動它等於我們台灣經濟整個金融的穩定度是非常的挑戰所以總裁在你的專業領域裡頭你要怎麼樣具體去維護好我們的外匯市場的這個秩序來避免整個市場過度的變"},{"start":14567.187,"end":14567.707,"text":"新台幣貶值,請教說明"},{"start":14592.426,"end":14594.967,"text":"所以到目前為止委員說的沒有錯就是說挑戰是在未來但是到目前為止中央銀行的我們的一個調解我總覺得我們還是能夠有這個足夠的能力來維持新台幣匯率的穩定"},{"start":14611.976,"end":14630.129,"text":"總裁你現在說的是目前為止我們還是有這個量能能夠控制好但是我剛剛一開頭跟你有一個共識也就是大家認為強勢的美元在線但是我們認為也不一定竟然是如此因為它的波動"},{"start":14631.05,"end":14652.215,"text":"到底要怎麼波動是讓我們有一點要緊張所以我還是勉勵我們必須要謹慎去看待到底它的波動是強勢美元還是弱勢美元這個是我這幾天我們大家一直在思考的因為這個嚴重的影響很大的一個面向當然剛剛所討論到的"},{"start":14656.556,"end":14674.488,"text":"民國74年當時所簽訂的這樣子的一個協議、廣場協議當時造就的程度是不是會再限?你的認為呢?所以我就說第一個剛剛委員在講就是說非常的不確定性"},{"start":14675.148,"end":14679.19,"text":"那剛剛前面那個委員有講到就是說廣場協議嘛那廣場協議1985年的那個廣場協議是不是會有廣場協議的2.0這個要密切的注意就應對了總裁你說的必須要好好的去去密切去觀察之這一點我勉勵一定要好好因為這個影響太大了好謝謝總裁接下來我請部長"},{"start":14704.246,"end":14704.487,"text":"請部長時間暫停"},{"start":14714.946,"end":14733.516,"text":"部長我們來實質討論你的超收問題在11月12號你公布了我們的負稅收入的統計今年10月份你已經達到了3.2951兆元那這個年增是2728億元是增幅9%那達成了全年度的預算應該是101.9%超出的部分大概是615億元"},{"start":14743.442,"end":14760.663,"text":"那今年總超出的這個總額大概是4000億左右那在這樣的情況之下克里斯創下了歷史性的第三高那有可能甚至還在增加有可能會挑戰新高"},{"start":14761.704,"end":14775.784,"text":"所以稅收的超增代表我們稅收狀態是比預期的好這是簡單的邏輯但是年年的超增所以政府你在收支的判斷上面這樣子的誤判"},{"start":14777.526,"end":14797.2,"text":"施質或施能所以你們也在113年你們成立了專家小組會議你成立了這些專家小組會議聘請了很多的專業人士那如今看來部長你的這個承諾應該是跳票了你的看法?你的說法呢?"},{"start":14798.081,"end":14800.543,"text":"跟委員報告對稅收的估測我們當然需要精進因此我們成立了一個估測小組對往我們是財政部自己估然後現在我們有邀請了國發會、央行還有專家學者一起來就各個稅務去檢討"},{"start":14815.251,"end":14832.917,"text":"然後來做一個估測但是有一些第一個有時間差的因素有時間差我們就說在估測的時候大概都是上半年那事實上完成這個稅收已經是第二年的年底了這個是時間差第二個有一些不可預測的因素比如說像證交稅是最難估測的因為股市比如說我們今年113年是以日成交量的均量來算我們是以3500億來估算"},{"start":14842,"end":14854.886,"text":"因為我們在去年在編11、3年這個證交稅的時候許多委員都認為說我們估得太高但是今年的日均量超過5000億的部長如果你如此的回答你認為部長停止你的回答因為我們要討論的是一個專業的"},{"start":14860.749,"end":14880.768,"text":"你的這個小組如果你把這個責任推上說有委員說你們編的太低那今年又是意外的他能夠這麼高日均量多少那這個小組要做什麼呢你的小組你應該因為你說了你保證今年可以大幅改善這個稅收超徵的問題啊"},{"start":14883.811,"end":14899.299,"text":"所以你剛才所說的這兩項原因都不是在你的專業領域裡頭的原因啊?不,我們一定是在做這個相關的一些精進但是也有一些不可預測的因素在裡面,我想跟委員說所以本期還是具體建議你喔,你的專業領域的小組還要在滾動式的檢討"},{"start":14902.521,"end":14905.443,"text":"因為目前為止我們的舉債還是非常的高因為我們的特別預算還是很多那你還錢的你都是還那個最少的所以換句話說製造了那個幸福泡泡的感覺出來所以本期還是具體建議你的小組"},{"start":14920.075,"end":14930.557,"text":"還要在滾動式去檢討小組當然是還有我們要建制相關估測的模型我們希望能夠透過部長你講到這個就重點了你的相關的因子條件你必須要去討論最後一個議題一分鐘給我好嗎最後一個議題你的AI繪圖人氣王的比賽你現在暫緩不公布"},{"start":14944.6,"end":14971.664,"text":"這什麼原因呢?你現在竟然喔竟然你雲端重數的這個幾點數現在司法在調查那你反而應該是要更精進方案你怎麼會導致AI匯吐人氣王的比賽你要暫緩公布你在怕什麼呢?沒有怕什麼部長是不是你提供會後提供資料給那個楊瓊我們會公布的我們會公布的什麼事要公布?"},{"start":14973.427,"end":14974.148,"text":"接下來請蔓怡貞委員執行"},{"start":15009.858,"end":15034.458,"text":"主席好,有請金管會主委好,請彭主委主委好,請教主委一下我們現在目前台灣有多少虛擬貨幣投資到國外的交易所"},{"start":15035.578,"end":15050.603,"text":"我們沒有官方的統計但是呢很多的有些的估計應該這個人數是非常的多人數非常多你們要統計對因為我們這個部分其實官方沒有因為我們沒有納管沒有這方面的資料"},{"start":15051.647,"end":15070.794,"text":"我真是那個雜誌幫你們統計啦所以我們台灣有八成台灣人就是一千八百多萬人投資國外的虛擬貨幣所以說請問我們都不知道這樣子的話你怎麼樣幫人民把關"},{"start":15071.754,"end":15088.651,"text":"當然報告委員其實我們對虛擬資產原來這個管理我們是依循全球管理虛擬資產的邏輯第一個先從反洗錢開始做起但是全球有多少虛擬貨幣的交易所你知道嗎"},{"start":15089.581,"end":15105.883,"text":"這我詳細的數字我不清楚,但是...你都不清楚?那你是主委呢,你什麼都不清楚都不知道,這樣子你來這是要問誰啊?你要幫人民把關他們的錢啊,但是你說你問這個也不知道,問那個也不知道?"},{"start":15107.355,"end":15117.802,"text":"報告委員有關那個虛擬資產的管理齁其實上在過去呢一直其實我們按照階段其實我們比如在台灣的話它只有落地我們才會知道對齁所以等於說落地呢落地我們現在目前齁目前我們完成就是洗錢防治法遵聲明的虛擬貨幣產業齁在我們你說有管理的嘛齁有多少家我們現在總共有26家會員公司"},{"start":15135.188,"end":15158.616,"text":"二十六家二十六家但是你知道我們全球共有幾家嗎這個其實這個數字我想說現在全球共有千家啦幾千家啦所以你是只有就是二十六家所以這二十六家你覺得是為什麼你要來是說你要管理只有二十六家"},{"start":15159.556,"end":15188.152,"text":"這個是因為主要是我們一個制度我們在一個我們的法治轄區裡面他一定要來做我們的登記你們怎麼選擇的是怎麼的制度也不要跟我說又不知道不會不會委員我想這個有不同的情況我可以跟委員報告因為我們開始呢做反洗錢的時候他要在台灣落地他必須先跟我們做反洗錢的聲明的登記所以這些人要經過我們的納管以後總共26家現在符合這個規定所以我們要求他們已經成立一個"},{"start":15188.992,"end":15204.483,"text":"所以其他家都不想進來,還是說因為他不符合?沒有,很多在申請當中,其實我們,也可以跟我們報告一下,我們11月30號我們會公佈一個新的執法這部分他們開始要做登記制,那沒有登記在台灣營業的話是會有刑責的"},{"start":15207.538,"end":15235.17,"text":"是但是說我們要登記要如何去把關不登記的話我們要如何去讓我們的人民去投資所以這個說你沒有把關的你說把關最優勢的所以要請教我們的主委你把關的就是26家這個26家是你覺得是在最好的最優勢的排名10名嗎其實不見得是這個意思就是他願意接受中華民國的法律來管轄"},{"start":15236.25,"end":15237.271,"text":"你知道我們台灣的世紀排名、全球排名有哪一些嗎?"},{"start":15260.487,"end":15278.178,"text":"二、包委員什麼排名不好意思我們台灣就是世紀最好在我們台灣就像我們台灣就是有什麼第一名還有第二名像說遺跡台灣全球是第一名像是現在呢我們儘管會創造我們全球第十名就是FTSG的倒閉事件中是我們台灣全球"},{"start":15289.526,"end":15298.876,"text":"第七名全球七大災害就是在我們台灣所以我的意思說你要把關只有26家但是呢在我們台灣有很多就是幾千家但是我們要如何去協助才能列入"},{"start":15309.168,"end":15324.621,"text":"這是我也特別提醒也呼籲國人我們11月30號開始假設我們公告以後任何人除了這26家任何人在台灣如果你沒有經過中華民國政府的登記許可的話你做這個就有刑責是但是現在我們就是日本就是有納管"},{"start":15330.206,"end":15336.168,"text":"所以呢當大家發現這個公司倒閉的時候所以我們日本就把他們留在日本所以就找回來但是我們台灣就是沒有納管我們超過600億我就是我們的人民去投資就拿不回來所以我希望我們金管會除了納管以外要把關要如何"},{"start":15354.233,"end":15356.053,"text":"我們正在做這件事情,謝謝委員的關心,謝謝當然當然,所以...不是,剛剛我跟委員報告,我們..."},{"start":15375.638,"end":15399.924,"text":"我們有一定的步驟我現在就這個部分我剛跟委員報告過其實我們明年6月30號就會把我們的有關虛擬資產管理的專法會送進行政院我想這次也是一個非常對我們要有專法就是要有措施有機制法定了沒有機制又沒有知道怎麼做的話定法是等於沒有啦所以我們希望的"},{"start":15401.164,"end":15405.485,"text":"我們正在努力中協助處理才正正的。好,謝謝,謝謝委員關心,謝謝,謝謝,謝謝委員關心。謝謝賣政委員,接著我們請葉延之委員諮詢。您好,請問央行的楊金龍總裁。是,請總裁。"},{"start":15432.762,"end":15440.971,"text":"總裁好,因為你有提到就是說因為我們現在對美有順差要透過跟美國買東西來平衡請問是要買什麼?"},{"start":15442.493,"end":15463.024,"text":"我們這邊的建議就是說像能源啊、農產品啊、還有菌庫啊這個是你個人的看法還是你已經跟政府討論過沒有,我們...因為一般我們聽到這個會覺得有點本末倒置啦通常我們買東西是有需求才會買嘛沒有是為了要平衡順差才去買的嘛你這樣等於是不是有亂花錢,這樣子的建議你覺得適當嗎"},{"start":15467.728,"end":15485.894,"text":"不過我想就是說第一個我們台灣我們的進口就是大概就進口譬如像說是能源這個是我們的進口這本來就有在做嘛這個是市場機制嘛現在就是有需要就去買但這個總裁的意思是說我們為了要平衡"},{"start":15486.894,"end":15506.144,"text":"貿易的順差逆差所以我們要特別去加大去跟他買那這中間可能就會買到一些我們現在可能不需要的東西有可能啦有可能那所以因為總裁您是這個在我們金融界講話一言九鼎你這樣講話今天整個媒體都震動了到底要買什麼應該評估說到底哪一些東西是應該買然後沒有去買的我們可以建議可以買這些我覺得這樣子的發言可能比較"},{"start":15513.588,"end":15539.159,"text":"我想委員講的也沒有錯不過我們只是說拋出這個議題而已我們也沒有就是說政府非這樣子不可不是啦因為你也是政府代表嘛你不能說我拋出一下政府討論看看然後如果沒有就沒這回事這也蠻奇怪的第二個你說鼓勵那個台積電到美國去投資然後這個也是平衡貿易順差密差方法但是你知不知道2022年張忠謀講一句話他說在"},{"start":15543.122,"end":15550.836,"text":"在美國,台積電在美國投資是貴且浪費你不知道你有沒有站在台積電的角度去思考這個問題不過你現在就是說台積電還是去啦"},{"start":15555.901,"end":15579.213,"text":"台積電還是去啦去美國啦你是說誇增加嘛現在是說為了要去平衡貿易順差逆差增加投資嘛不過我也沒有說台積電要增加投資啦因為你講說台積電赴美投資現在問題是說要平衡順差逆差所以你講一些解方其中包括去對美的採購以及台積電赴美投資是在這個前提之下去講這些議題嗎我只會說我們的廠商"},{"start":15580.874,"end":15581.334,"text":"請財政部部長、莊部長"},{"start":15612.947,"end":15634.94,"text":"部長請教一下因為我們今年預估也會超增4000億的稅但昨天聽說你講說是不會還稅於民會拿去還債對吧沒有還稅於民這個規劃那我們會減少舉債我想請教一下為什麼前幾年有超增都可以還稅於民只有今天不可以今年不可以差別在哪沒有前幾年只有前年有啊112年的時候因為111"},{"start":15636.761,"end":15639.944,"text":"一年那個時候歷經這個疫情的一個影響然後我們經濟成長得不錯所以把經濟成長的果實以全民共識沒有啦部長今年的經濟成長跟之前一定也是差不多所以才會超震那麼多歲嘛"},{"start":15653.583,"end":15675.355,"text":"跟委員報告 那個時候歷經的我還是說是那一年的關係是疫情的關係所以才還稅於民是疫情的關係那時候疫情的時候全民其實有部分的產業受到一些衝擊但是我們因為防疫所以你還稅於民的目的是為了要刺激產業應該不是吧 那個時候你們當時的行政院長不是這樣子講的喔"},{"start":15677.412,"end":15687.436,"text":"當初講吧就是說因為經濟有成長所以要講這個果實去跟大家分享沒有去扯到什麼產業受到衝擊這些喔所以同樣的條件整個是在疫後經濟的一個那個整體計畫裡面的一項嘛那是一個疫後經濟的一個我們有一個整體計畫裡面的一項就是對全民共享這個普發性"},{"start":15699.14,"end":15718.611,"text":"應該我覺得那時候不是你講的這樣那時候說還稅於民是因為要把經濟的成長跟全民分享而且這本來就是超真的這本來就是超真的嘛那如果說按照你講的都不用還稅於民的話那你每一年通通都試算錯誤就好了啊然後每一年都超真啊超真就被你們政府決定怎麼用就怎麼用啊"},{"start":15720.192,"end":15734.118,"text":"因為你已經連續好幾年都超真的所以你認為說因為你預估跟你預估的時收跟你預估的有落差嘛那你們預估每一年都差到那麼幾千億你覺得是正常狀況嗎"},{"start":15735.098,"end":15755.235,"text":"跟委員報告在國際間的文書差百分之十以內是絕對的一斤兩然後在十到二十趴之間是一斤兩所以你覺得很正常就對我不能說很正常但是我們在估計的方式我們更可以運動所以你覺得所以明年可能所以未來每一年都有可能會超增因為部長認為說在國際上都是正常現象我想委員不要這樣子"},{"start":15757.037,"end":15777.473,"text":"你的態度就這樣嘛。理論上來講,如果部長你認為超徵有問題的話,你就會說好我們可能會經濟或是哪一個部分造成我們超徵,我們去調整。但你不是嘛。你講的就是說國際都這樣啊。所以你理所當然啊。那你如果理所當然的話,那你明年後年、大後年通通都會超徵啊。不是嗎?那你剛剛就說國際都這樣嘛。這個都有直播的,大家都有看到嘛。"},{"start":15783.177,"end":15783.818,"text":"但部長的態度大家都看到了啦"},{"start":15808.553,"end":15829.29,"text":"就是這樣子啦 超徵4000億都是國際上都是正常狀況所以外界也不要批評財政部財政部已經做得很好了就是這種態度大家都看到部長找時間跟葉委員做溝通好不好謝謝葉言之委員那接著鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在"},{"start":15832.012,"end":15856.893,"text":"吳思瑤委員吳思瑤、吳思瑤不在吐泉吉委員吐泉吉、吐泉吉不在蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉不在邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉不在黃建豪、黃建豪、黃建豪不在陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在何新淳、何新淳、何新淳委員不在羅志強、羅志強、羅志強委員不在"},{"start":15859.375,"end":15862.181,"text":"張祺凱、張祺凱、張祺凱我言不在王世堅、王世堅、王世堅我言不在"},{"start":15867.369,"end":15889.329,"text":"今天登記花園的委員均已詢答完畢那本次的會議做如下的一個結議報告跟說明跟詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一周內以書面答覆委員另外要求期限者"},{"start":15890.249,"end":15898.858,"text":"從其所定委員王世堅、何新淳、邱志偉首提的書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":15904.793,"end":15932.363,"text":"第三、中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利腳庫的部分：及中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：附屬單位預算營業部分有關中央銀行含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠預算案均令則其繼續審查"},{"start":15935.083,"end":15961.948,"text":"本日會議委員另有相關的預算提案請移請移11月20號星期三中午12點以前競送財政委員會議事人員收件本次的會議議程已進行完畢倘若有不在場的委員補題書面的執行一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"},{"start":15966.817,"end":15968.08,"text":"暫時暫時"}]}},{"id":"16262","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16262","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68510c4563b5e5bf20ab6918ac9a8133975edb79b8bfb08e7998ec91c71b58e4eaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案。\n二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算。(公務及基金預算)(僅詢答)\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案。(僅詢答)\n【業務報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-14T08:31:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T13:32:00+08:00","duration":18059,"影片長度":"05:00:59","委員發言時間":"08:31:01 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從520上任之後大概完成了重點工作如這個表所示那不一樣顏色呢是我們自己花了很多時間特別跟可能跟過去不一樣的例如說我們把氣候法這個相關的三職法還有碳費的制度終於可以上路了那接下來呢還有包含了空品標準甚至我們SRF還有垃圾的裸露的問題"},{"start":2393.652,"end":2409.854,"text":"我們大概都有一些妥善的處理那未來呢我們會推動這個淨零的綠領人才培育還有相關的環境部的相關的計畫這個是我們過去半年成果的重點工作跟委員報告那未來呢我舉例像昨天的就是我們跟台積電合作一個MOU"},{"start":2410.555,"end":2411.635,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":2433.541,"end":2450.196,"text":"゚✧✧"},{"start":2450.256,"end":2470.864,"text":"我這邊提出大概有三件事情特別跟委員報告一個是環評我們在環境保護為優先的情況下我們要鼓勵我們國內的再生能源的開發這個包含了在這個敏感區域跟這個山坡地它的這個太陽光電必須有效的管理這個是過去沒有的也感謝委員會的要求在三個會期的要求小水利、地熱發電、變電站或試驗型計畫"},{"start":2472.745,"end":2473.946,"text":" bicyclist 森林森林森林"},{"start":2496.897,"end":2497.137,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":2519.309,"end":2519.769,"text":"關於環境部部長列席報告案"},{"start":2539.58,"end":2540.26,"text":" bicyclone 公務及基金預算"},{"start":2562.671,"end":2588.729,"text":"゚✧✧✧✧"},{"start":2589.109,"end":2614.393,"text":"其實委員都非常的清楚所有的減量的目標空污的減少、碳排的減少、用煤量的減少都有顯著的承諾那天才會過關的我身為環境部長也必須要保護我們環評委員的專業在這個地方先跟委員報告那另外一個也關心了碳費的運用其實碳費的運用在氣候變遷因應法裡面有13項的用途裡面有一項就是給地方那地方呢其實我們過去的經驗包含空污法"},{"start":2614.633,"end":2615.293,"text":" covariate to the"},{"start":2634.343,"end":2655.299,"text":"゚≥≥"},{"start":2656.06,"end":2672.331,"text":"但是這個還是以減碳我們最新做的民調來看的話民眾是支持的希望把它用在減碳最大量的目標而不是完全是用在這個分配給地方地方一定要用但是這個還是要有一些專業的一個判斷那我來報告基金預算案的部分我們環境部呢"},{"start":2674.132,"end":2695.927,"text":"總共有這個11項的這個施政的計畫如上面所述那都是跟我們前面講的是有連結在一起的我們在明年度的預算總共是161億那其實包含了單位預算跟基金的預算等等但是看起來數字減少但是我們大概有10億左右是屬於的前瞻基礎建設的計畫最後一起的計畫所以總共大概是170億"},{"start":2696.988,"end":2699.149,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算案關於環境部主管預算"},{"start":2725.717,"end":2746.683,"text":"在後年的之後政院還有各界可以給我們更多的支持我希望環境部如果要讓台灣環境更好適當的經費的增加人力增加是必須的我是希望朝一個能夠突破百億的目標而前進所以目前的這個分配的預算如大家所示其中裡面是環管署我們的比例大概在33%最多那我們幾個大的計畫跟大家報告"},{"start":2748.243,"end":2759.911,"text":"包括了這個我們的國家化學任性永續計畫這個總共有11億6千將近7千萬左右主要是掌握化學的物質的這個相關的運作還有應變體系然後第二個呢是這個美質環境推動計畫包含了公測"},{"start":2763.533,"end":2788.451,"text":"然後這個環境衛生或災後的復原總共有4億8千多萬然後另外一個是綠色設計這就跟經營循環有關係這個是配合淨零轉型的計畫總共有6800萬那附屬基金的預算我們有環保基金目前的明年編列的預算是92億6千多萬基金的用途總共有83億然後餘處大概是8億6千多萬那目前的各基金分配的來源分配到"},{"start":2788.851,"end":2813.155,"text":"公務及基金預算包括空污基金、資源回收基金、土壤及地下水資金、水基金等等其中空污基金是比較多的有些基金的量比去年少最主要是因為我們的空氣品質有改善那個是隨著空污的排放量有關係的其實是有改善這個基金是最好越收越好這代表我們空氣是越來越乾淨目前它的用途的比例總共是83萬如下所示"},{"start":2813.695,"end":2832.684,"text":"那我們空污的基金呢基金最大的來源呢是還是屬於在移動員的管制包含了這個所謂的轉大客車的一個補助等等還有地方政府執行污染防治的工作其實地方已經有大概固定污染源拿了6成我們額外再會給補助給地方所以地方其實在空污基金的部分比補助蠻多的吼"},{"start":2833.824,"end":2833.984,"text":"゚≡基金預算"},{"start":2852.261,"end":2872.022,"text":"゚✧"},{"start":2872.102,"end":2872.663,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":2896.041,"end":2921.519,"text":"依照這個原來的用途來做編列那最後我們有4個財團法人一個是資源研究發展基金會他的收入大概是7600萬然後環發會總共有1億1000多萬然後環境權保障基金會現在還有大概2000多萬然後大科砍比較小一點點這個是由桃園市政府所支持的總共100多萬所以以上是我的預算還有我們的業務報告感謝謝謝"},{"start":2924.882,"end":2953.008,"text":"謝謝,謝謝彭部長那有關本日會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案那現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":2957.897,"end":2958.44,"text":"有請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":2963.972,"end":2986.764,"text":"部長本來10月31號要有安排這個近零轉型對於勞動市場的影響但因為颱風架的關係所以這個就錯過了但我覺得題目非常重要所以我今天還是就這個部分來就教這個部長那針對勞動部10月22號他提出了這個近零轉型勞動市場研究報告那社會上有一些討論那勞動部有點出說近零排放政策會導致"},{"start":2988.385,"end":3017.784,"text":"以萬人算以萬人來計算的這個工作失掉工作機會失業了部長您當時剛開始的反應是說推估的跟現實狀況可能有一些不同我想請問您現在的想法還是一樣嗎包委這個其實他是一個學者的探討啦他有一些模型那他都算是負面的但是事實上我們也問過電子業他並沒有影響那麼的大然後那但是呢我們增加的工作機會更多他沒有算到增加的所以我們他等於是尊重學者的研究啦"},{"start":3018.765,"end":3033.725,"text":"謝謝部長因為當時您是說不相關我再跟你確認一次那我再請教部長環境部計畫未來跟勞動部跟經濟部來搭建那個進行職場轉型的一個跨部會平台那這個具體內容都已經設定了嗎內容或綱要都設定了嗎"},{"start":3034.245,"end":3059.998,"text":"報告委員我們已經這三個部會已經有跨平台的這個討論了然後我們大概在12月中會把一個綠領人才的報告我們會向社會大眾報告以後未來就三個部會一起來推動做這個事情期待但是我還是想想問一下除了勞動部那個環境部或是經濟部當然還有國發等他們這個部分是不是做過調查瞭解剛剛您說的衝擊那是學者的報告但是真正的衝擊對象你們有過研究嗎"},{"start":3060.418,"end":3060.638,"text":" bicyn 齊"},{"start":3074.213,"end":3094.706,"text":"內別或衝擊已經有初步的資料嗎?我們其實在那個金額、碳費那時候在準備算的時候都有衝擊評估但是因為我們碳費是後年才會認得到錢所以明年還不會馬上影響到但是也跟委員報告其實氣候轉型全世界都在轉所以我們也關注到說有一些弱勢的產業他恐怕因為碳排比較高所以我們要有一個針對弱勢的產業勞工還有產業要有一些輔導"},{"start":3098.268,"end":3100.771,"text":" »:對於這個氣候變遷所衍生的有一些社會不公平那引發不少學者討論請問部長環境部針對協助勞動市場調查未來將依法規劃運用碳費收入已經有具體內容了嗎?"},{"start":3115.128,"end":3115.608,"text":"請問你預估的綠領值缺有多少?"},{"start":3142.694,"end":3167.148,"text":"從2017年的話大概只有四五千人現在已經到兩萬兩千三百個人那麼我還是要問國家政策可不可以你看從這個資料的報告國家政策能夠支持將近五分之一的失業勞工這是來自台灣企業行動的網路當然您認為有五分之一的會面臨失業然後怎麼樣讓他們獲得完善的就業保障"},{"start":3168.352,"end":3185.769,"text":"這個其實報告委員那個綠領的這個收入會比傳統的工作來的高我們最近新統計的結果轉型所以像英國他們這個把化石燃料的大概有20個勞工然後轉到新的這個再生能源的方向在走"},{"start":3186.089,"end":3207.124,"text":"部長那我們來繼續追蹤啦。但是接下來我跟部長討論一個比較嚴肅的事情。民進黨前中指有郭在清在台南雪甲等地不罰掩埋這個爐茶案。郭在清在2010年到2015年之間在台南雪甲等地用低價購買土地。占用國有地非法掩埋數十萬公噸的失業費器物爐茶。那不罰所得高達21.6億元。請問部長你能接受這個做法嗎?"},{"start":3213.448,"end":3233.74,"text":"我是不能接受啦但是委員這個案例是他已經新建了如果我們把它全部挖掉的話我們還在討論這件事情照片這個照片上面就上週五我辦公室去辦理現刊那邀請環境部跟台南市環保局去查看清楚狀況那有走動的那一邊就是屬於這個目前是一家叫做全城新業公司的廠房啦"},{"start":3234.74,"end":3235.2,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":3258.325,"end":3281.569,"text":"部長您可以稍微看一下它的那個積水呈現不尋常的顏色當地里長甚至北上來澄清過檢舉國有土地部分掩埋的爐灑它根本沒有清除乾淨因為土地零零的關係所以挖土機沒有辦法順利進入去挖掘所以你很難查看國有地底下的爐灑情形但是它上面那片積水你能檢驗的是它的具有強鹼性酸鹼值是11請問部長"},{"start":3286.75,"end":3311.01,"text":"有你的專業能力來說明為何積水會有這麼高度的搶檢性,pH值11啊。就代表說他的這個土壤是有問題的。有問題嘛,有問題嘛。那部長,環境部同仁當年在場說導致積水呈現搶檢性很多可能性,但其中一個可能性還是不能排除啊,就是隔壁全城新業這個廠房底下廬殺沒有移除造成的。那我要請問部長就是說,那位在全城新業廠房下的廬殺,"},{"start":3312.051,"end":3325.408,"text":"那環境部要怎麼處理?就放在台南市環保局繼續擺爛嗎?就放著嗎?這個其實他因為這個已經蓋起來了而且這個是民間的企業那我們也不能叫他拆掉我很少說這麼重的話大家來公平"},{"start":3328.632,"end":3354.722,"text":"你看臺南市環保局上週五會刊後的新聞稿臺南市環保局意思說因為全城新建是合法新建的廠房是善意第三人所以不能隨便拆會造成對方損失3億元還說基於信賴保護原則跟比例原則要用善意的第三人損害最小方式去處理那當天會刊現場環境部出席人也這麼說啊部長跟您說的話一樣啊我想請部長那我剛剛聽了寫的你也認同這個說法啊那我是要講齁我必須這樣講齁"},{"start":3357.583,"end":3381.643,"text":"那我當然懂什麼叫信賴保護原則我也懂比例原則啊但是你這樣的解釋等於告訴全台灣違法的業者你只要去山上或鄉下去買一塊很便宜的土地然後把事業費幾乎非法掩埋了然後再把土地賣給第三人然後再第三人趕快去蓋建築或趕快蓋廠房只要環保機關沒有辦法認定說"},{"start":3382.824,"end":3384.505,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":3404.059,"end":3414.47,"text":"原來的這個不法掩埋的爐廠部長還是你這句話嗎因為有善意的第三者把他蓋了廠房我們不管了我們就不管了嗎是這樣嗎數十萬公噸欸"},{"start":3416.493,"end":3416.913,"text":"部長郭財軍會不知道嗎?"},{"start":3446.004,"end":3456.861,"text":"你現在這個做法你這種包庇包庇等於交全大家全國怎麼樣去做違法是還可以獲利欸獲得幾十億的這個獲利欸你等於告訴大家怎麼來違法可以賺錢欸"},{"start":3458.322,"end":3461.243,"text":"關於環境部部長列席報告案二、邀請環境部部長列席報告案三、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":3476.351,"end":3502.617,"text":"如果有違反什麼什麼現在就當地里長他們也許都活在生活在那裡啊他來告訴我們他也當時當時在看的時候明明沒有清除乾淨他們看得清清楚楚啊現在怎麼辦怎麼處理就放任不管嗎對不會他這個委員關心的後續會不會有違法的事情因為現在不是後續他已經違法中了他那個現在的爐茶已經不能用在這一些地區了所以後續不會有這種事情"},{"start":3503.317,"end":3513.528,"text":"市長這意思就是說那塊地那塊地就是因為這樣是不是就投降擺爛了啊好我們就讓雪甲的居民聽聽看嘛大家聽聽看不然怎麼辦你要不要處理"},{"start":3514.093,"end":3533.988,"text":"好委員這個我再瞭解一下好不好因為其實第一個是這有法律的問題因為它已經蓋上來了然後我們現在是採取這種監測國家沒有說好國家去國賠嘛那你該做的事還讓居民安心啊在家地就活得安心啊啊明明它這個案子就發啦它就是已經被揭露啦這個不法復利不法掩埋也都是事實啊"},{"start":3535.189,"end":3536.31,"text":"謝謝陳昭斯委員接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":3572.824,"end":3573.225,"text":"蔡林怡議員"},{"start":3589.301,"end":3607.574,"text":"那今天事實上是你們環境部的業務報告跟114年的預算的詢答那大概就三件事來跟你做討論就碳費的目標跟碳費要怎麼分配跟我們目前觀察到的綠領人才反正上次事實上是要質詢這可是因為颱風而延後"},{"start":3614.599,"end":3638.705,"text":"部長針對於那目前就是大概你的整個的就是在2026年的話就要開始收碳費那2024年就有地方政府現在我們的盧市長就已經出來喊說八成要留在留在地方那你"},{"start":3640.018,"end":3651.959,"text":"針對媒體報導您也提到說整個的碳費使用跟分配要修所謂的溫室氣體的管理基金收支保管跟運用辦法這年底會完成嗎?"},{"start":3653.491,"end":3671.119,"text":"對,現在正在預公告嘛。來,梁組長。跟委員報告,就是我們那個溫管基金的收支保管運用辦法依照預算法是要由行政院訂定。那我們現在已經完成預告的這個程序,目前報請行政院在審查當中。"},{"start":3672.659,"end":3694.498,"text":"那你這整個因為我們這是沒有看到你的預算裡面看針對碳費怎麼運用或用什麼方法進行研究所以部長署長那整個的你的碳費規劃的預計會用在哪些方面?報告委員其實因為碳費是後年才會有所以我們不會在明年的預算上面那有沒有要去做研究說那你怎麼規劃?"},{"start":3695.819,"end":3715.258,"text":"等於是說這個管理辦法當行政院核定我們現在在預公告然後也行政院在審核當中那通過了之後因為這個跟我們過去是不一樣因為過去最早要訂這個碳費的時候其實那時候的試想其實是可能會到一千億所以基本上是拉得很大啊現在呢其實是規模比較小"},{"start":3715.698,"end":3731.907,"text":"所以其實裡面的組成的成員還有特性可能會不大一樣所以我們在修正當中我們預計呢如果按照這個速度的話應該是希望最快是年底這個這個法案可以我們的這個執法可以通過那通過之後我們就開始聘任這個委員那就有一個委員會可以來討論這個事情好"},{"start":3735.732,"end":3753.266,"text":"呃,剛剛我想前面呃,陳昌志委員也在問,齁,這是上次我們要齁,質詢的那個議題喔,就是說,呃,如果看勞動部,齁,他們的那個職安衛生研究所的報告裡邊,呃,淨零轉型呢,首當其中的就是一個是電子組件業的,還有金屬"},{"start":3754.248,"end":3774.979,"text":"事業及機械設備業甚至零售業都會面對到就業的機會減少那整個層面非常的大光明年就電子零組件業大概就1.7萬人失業這是勞動部這邊得出來資料那這背後事實上是一萬多個家庭受到影響"},{"start":3776.82,"end":3779.821,"text":"公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算"},{"start":3805.651,"end":3812.184,"text":"現階段整個人力專業需求不明確以至於目前存在很多種課程價格差異很大"},{"start":3816.4,"end":3842.042,"text":"就職轉職的證照需求不明確甚至學校的課程大學的養成到底可不可以銜接你職場所以使得我們的要轉職的或就職的勞工朋友們社會新鮮人常常都會出錯不前不知道我要怎麼做雖然這些業務有的像學校課程應該是教育部有的跟經濟部有關係可是談到淨零減碳還是以環境部"},{"start":3842.722,"end":3854.909,"text":"最為專業,所以關於我們的未來人才的培育我相信你們當然沒有辦法置身事外我們就來看我們現在碰到的問題這都是我們辦公室因為有人在後台"},{"start":3856.748,"end":3876.802,"text":"那針對你們現在目前如果環境部不出來處理的話就首先我們以ISO的14064-1的那個證照為例這是一張有關溫室氣體的盤查內部查證人員那我請我們的同仁去看整個去比對之後發現同樣一套課程有人開價5250元一堂課可是也有高達33500元"},{"start":3883.823,"end":3909,"text":"僵差非常的大那到底對有志要踏入這個行業的人就要問喔我是否需要證明我有綠領專業的證照那證照之後我要去哪裡考取還有呢我要上課還是接受什麼樣訓練甚至證照考取跟我的薪資有沒有真相關以上這些問題呢不管在PTT或者是低卡的求職版面都有不少年輕人在詢問而且目前"},{"start":3910.121,"end":3913.483,"text":"二、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告業務．"},{"start":3931.161,"end":3951.526,"text":"到底要用什麼證照所以打開104的人力行我們搜尋永續管理師這個職缺分別就兩間我們的科技公司以及一間大型的旅行社都在徵才可是的確目前我們的綠領人才能依照媒體報導的各行各業都在努力找人"},{"start":3951.766,"end":3969.189,"text":"゚≥≥"},{"start":3969.309,"end":3989.9,"text":"到底要轉職求職要不要考證照還有要不要受訓那想要那個人想要進入那個綠領行業的夥伴真的是一頭霧水所以以上這些案例環境部是不是可以跟我們民眾們解釋就是說來跟我們說明說到底綠領人才要不要考證照"},{"start":3991.38,"end":4012.945,"text":"好,謝謝委員,委員果然是把這個問題都把它點出來了,那也跟委員報告我們其實環境部在過去這幾個月我們很努力的把各個跨部會去做整合,發現了委員你說的就是這個問題,還包含民間的這個亂象,所以我們現在呢,透過國環院,透過來整合大家,所以我們大概在12月中會有一個完整的"},{"start":4013.305,"end":4029.483,"text":"委員你說的都是問題那我們已經把它彙整起來了到時候也希望委員一起來參加我們的形式那個報告那個報告其實就指出了例如說證照需要什麼我們政府要扮演什麼樣的角色所以我們大概在12月中會正式推出來一個新的政策總會拿到這些報告嗎"},{"start":4032.006,"end":4057.604,"text":"對對對就是說像這個證照的確有些是政府有在推的但是很多民間他花了很多錢甚至還有30萬的詐騙的都有所以我們現在呢過去這個是很難去處理的但是我們現在經過這幾個月我們會推出來一套政策會讓大家知道說這是綠領讓環境部會來承擔然後跨部會來進行合作我希望環境部真的要扛起來否則的話過去我們自己在看"},{"start":4058.789,"end":4082.883,"text":"議員長也是每一次政府沒有很明確公告就不斷不斷上課三年上一套課三年他每一次都要交兩三萬塊你真的是讓我們的民間老民傷財可能要去考慮最後在2026年呢真的碳費起徵可不我也要很擔心的是會不會有不法企業繳交我們的假報告因為過去我在擔任我在民間"},{"start":4083.77,"end":4109.606,"text":"團體的時候擔任我們的遊戲場審議會的委員的時候那對於誰可以審議甚至簽證那資格怎麼去認定是有一套規定的因為為什麼要避免假報告橫行假報告一旦橫行的話不合格的遊戲場被簽署合格的話最後受害的是孩子所以一樣的從環境部這邊我們當然有就期待所以請環境部能夠先說明未來2026年徵收碳費"},{"start":4112.407,"end":4134.939,"text":"從計算、碳排、繳交報告政府怎麼審報告最後核定費率的流程大致會怎麼去進行這過程是不是都要有人員需要有相關證照來驗證或透過上課時數來認證因為目前像遊戲場他是有要拿到合格證明書的人他才有辦法去做這樣的一個簽證說這個遊戲場是合格的"},{"start":4137.062,"end":4165.955,"text":"那所以目前我們的綠領人才的課程呢又滿天飛環境部目前我們還是希望你在課程跟費用都要有一定的標準如果我們也是期待12月中旬可以拿到你的報告最後期待因為我覺得這114年的預算希望有幾件事情你要務必注意的就是說第一個預算已經是編列研究費用那就應該盡數依照我們的"},{"start":4166.863,"end":4179.702,"text":"氣候變遷因應法第10條的規定競速訂出我國溫室氣體的減量目標。第二個事實上碳費徵收的SOP已經過程中需要認證的以及避免繳交假報告請環境部"},{"start":4182.329,"end":4182.849,"text":"二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務"},{"start":4202.006,"end":4229.281,"text":"到底未來徵造的必要性還有課程內容跟施肢培育避免求職的人或轉職的夥伴花了很多時間金錢就發現沒有用以上這三點請環境部要注意到好謝謝委員的意見委員果然是把這個問題都點出來我們也的確正在進行當中我們會依照委員的這個指教我把它納進來到我們這個12月中的報告好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝謝謝林月琴委員接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":4240.676,"end":4246.54,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝各位官員還有委員的出席那我也要請環境部部長請彭部長部長早安"},{"start":4253.038,"end":4279.067,"text":"部長因為我們現在是要討論這個明年度的預算嘛所以我想請教一下彭部長你知道環境部明年開始會開始執行一項專案大概是5年的專案叫做建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫總共經費大概97億元您知道這個計畫嗎知道可是今天的業務報告隻字未提耶這麼大的一個金額"},{"start":4280.783,"end":4287.611,"text":"其實那個因為我是有在我的這個未來要工作的項目裡面但是這個細節其實沒有特別提的太多因為時間的限制"},{"start":4288.877,"end":4310.78,"text":"所以你會知道說為什麼我們國家的化學危機風險突然增加所以我們需要編列一個5年就是7億的預算嗎知道因為這個就是例如說好PFAS的問題等等我們希望更主動的來解決所以這個經費也爭取了很久是不是請我們謝署長簡單的回答一下署長可不可以一分"},{"start":4312.881,"end":4325.089,"text":"議員報告這是一個5年計畫總共有大概157億跨了這個我們的包括內政部、國防部、衛福部、經濟部等那屬於我們本部預算有97億多"},{"start":4328.371,"end":4344.996,"text":"那分別是化學署、大氣司還有國安院相關的計畫。那麼從那個流向追蹤、災害防救等等這邊來分明定義。好,就是這一本。對。這都在你們的網站上是公開透明的資訊。公開的。對,因為這是任何定計畫。"},{"start":4345.336,"end":4369.945,"text":"好那我們來討論一下為什麼這些事是環境部來做你的專案計畫裡面寫到說因為我們的國軍訓練薄弱訓練打折幾乎都是以原則性的教學為主所以你們要協助提升國軍的訓練量能跟成效又說我們的國軍裝備老了舊了所以是要開始協助他們做實地操作嗎"},{"start":4370.967,"end":4394.449,"text":"跟委員報告根據我們的災害防救法其實在我們如果有發生這個毒化災的整個防治計畫裡面不管是中央或地方政府是可以申請國軍協助那目前國軍的這個量能的部分都在我們的災害防救的計畫裡面那因為國軍的經費其實他是屬於戰備方面所以以往在這部分的經費呢在過去是由我們環境的部門來編列"},{"start":4395.41,"end":4418.211,"text":"那為什麼113年以前不需要環境部編列?都有。114年以後突然需要5年的計劃?是。在前一期的計劃,我們也有計劃有納進來。但是當時的經費整體的話是範圍比較少,所以那個國軍的部分只有一部分,所以也是由我們這邊來協助。部長你還是回來好了。好,謝謝。部長。謝謝。"},{"start":4419.272,"end":4434.502,"text":"部長今年的國防預算已經是創下歷史新高大概是6470多億我不知道為什麼現在還需要環境部來分工那你分工分了這麼大一塊你的業務報告卻隻字未提這件事情非常的奇怪"},{"start":4435.771,"end":4449.368,"text":"嗯,其實簡報是有,我們簡報裡面有一頁是專門講這個,講這個這個97...好,沒關係,我們等一下,我們等一下把一些細項拿出來討論一下齁。你說這件事情很重要,好。今天有一個"},{"start":4450.609,"end":4462.897,"text":"無人機就在用空拍無人機組齁你把它分在5個不同的頁數一頁是360萬買4台一頁是1170萬買13台810萬買9台2520萬買28台最後1620萬買18台你分成5個頁面喔總共花了6480萬大肆的購買下來換算一台居然要90萬欸"},{"start":4478.627,"end":4488.825,"text":"你們是買什麼特別的規格什麼特別的功能協助你的化學韌性需要買到一台90萬還買了非常的大批量"},{"start":4490.326,"end":4515.602,"text":"跟輪報告其實應該不會是那麼多,因為我們是有三個...我有附頁數給你,你可以回去翻一下這本。你就是有買這麼多?對,我們的那個無人機的部分。你看一下你的無人機上面,你還分五筆喔,不只是無人機分五筆。上面還有一個救災機器人,一個機器人是一千多萬。"},{"start":4517.796,"end":4519.72,"text":"然後你買了7句、5句、5句"},{"start":4522.958,"end":4551.493,"text":"請問到底是什麼狀況你會需要編這個計劃買這麼多救災機器人跟空拍無人機?包委我有看過那個我們的毒化災總隊像昨天在桃園有那個有一個環科工業區他排放那個氣其實那個就需要像這樣的空拍機那個是特殊的不是一般的空拍機所以你的意思是說113年以前我們國家不會有這麼多的化學災害但是114年之後你擔心這5年可能會有重大的化學災害"},{"start":4552.313,"end":4554.134,"text":"所以編列這樣子的預算嗎?"},{"start":4554.134,"end":4569.664,"text":"113年前還是有,無人機這部分也都是有,然後我們也有少部分的這個偵檢機器人的一個研發或購入。那麼在未來5年裡面,我們在這個科技防災這部分會加強這個投資。"},{"start":4570.945,"end":4584.922,"text":"那國際上大概是類似機器權這種的朋友我覺得環境部的業務非常重要但是我們翻到你的計畫第183頁你居然是用環境部的基金來支應這個韌性計畫5億5000萬元"},{"start":4588.326,"end":4614.725,"text":"其中包括空氣污染防治基金一億五千萬元土壤以及地下水污染整治基金兩億五千萬元還有環境教育基金一億五千萬元你是覺得你這三個業務都已經做得很棒了還有多餘的錢你看一下你的品項是籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備這些你把你的基金拿出來做這些事情"},{"start":4616.059,"end":4641.906,"text":"跟你們報告齁,其實我們在跟行政院提報計畫的時候呢那麼對於工作事項裡面行政院也請我們檢討屬於我們自己經費部分的負擔那麼在這三項基金裡面像土屋基金的部分我們會在補助地方政府還有我們的流布計畫就是環境流布計畫河川、吳迪尼這邊我們會來做然後在這個教育宣導的部分我們會用環境教育部長你回答好了對"},{"start":4643.186,"end":4671.754,"text":"我沒有在問你的基金是用來幹嘛我是在問你你的基金為什麼要撥五億五千萬來做籌購陸軍司令部毒化災救援裝備報告委員因為我們化學署是全台灣最專業的化學物質那國軍他有他的化學物質項目他也會來支援我們所以這個的經費是一起來做這件事情可是他跟前面對不起來你的環境教育基金為什麼要做這件事情"},{"start":4673.372,"end":4674.213,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":4689.967,"end":4706.526,"text":"我會再去查這個經費的細項。好,下一個。再來呢,我們從114年開始,你有四個,你上面寫你要協助地方政府。雖然我不知道是哪四個地方政府或是一個地方政府,也希望你可以告訴我。請問我們現在"},{"start":4708.448,"end":4713.691,"text":"政府賴總統跟執政黨就是朝著核電歸零的政策為什麼我們需要買到4台的核生化車輛一台3000多萬另外我們還要買化學災害處理車輛一台也是3000多萬整個加起來買了13台花了3億9千萬然後核生化災害處理車輛花了1億多而且是協助地方政府是給地方政府用的喔"},{"start":4735.663,"end":4740.155,"text":"請問地方政府的環境部的相關人員會用這些車輛嗎?"},{"start":4741.667,"end":4768.78,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛講的是這個計畫是跨部會提那麼內政部消防署有41億這個經費是內政部消防署去執行的有些他購買有些是補助地方購買可是有環境部出錢寫計畫是計畫我們會診之後報院然後分項核定之後分頭編列在各部會的預算書裡面那剛剛九十幾億那這是我們環境部主管沒問題"},{"start":4769.42,"end":4786.193,"text":"所以你們會知道是哪個地方政府需要充實這個核生化災害處理車輛還有化學災害處理車輛嗎?這部分的話是消防署他們去規劃但資訊上我們是可以把它彙整過來來了解所以你們協助的部分是?"},{"start":4787.551,"end":4799.531,"text":"゚≥≥"},{"start":4799.878,"end":4803.22,"text":"這是你寫的這是掛名你的報告我也想問什麼叫做後續的增援部隊後續增援部隊是什麼"},{"start":4828.012,"end":4830.677,"text":"然後還要達成作戰任務為主要考量"},{"start":4832.03,"end":4857.231,"text":"這部分是文字內容,這不是國防部提供的啦。國防部提供給你,你把它貼到環境部的報告上?不是,因為這個計畫是我們整個彙整。那內容,我剛剛有涉及部會的文字部分是由各部會寫出來。那經過院審查之後,核定完。當然我們可以,這個核定的上面我們也可以把部會都寫上去啦。不過因為我們是主政部會,所以我們這樣寫。"},{"start":4858.012,"end":4886.218,"text":"可是你是主責你應該要去了解你裡面的內容寫了哪些東西吧你掛你的名字掛你的五年計劃然後你說內容都是別人寫的也是別人在主責的這樣對嗎整個毒化災是我們化學署在統全者就很像說我們未來我們的資源循環循環經濟也是我們循環署統合來處理所以他們化學署是走的比較快把各個部位毒化災的部份由我們這邊來統籌"},{"start":4887.738,"end":4915.444,"text":"我也想知道為什麼113年以前你沒有毒化災需要這麼多包括增援部隊包括達成作戰任務覺得以前都只有原則性的學習為什麼突然今年會有這些東西各位報告因為發掘成立是在105年底當時我們就嘗試把跨部會整合起來所以前一期的計畫其實也是跨部會整合的只是那個工作項目跟預算沒有像這一期這麼多"},{"start":4916.364,"end":4944.828,"text":"對,那為什麼這麼多?你可以說嗎?因為事實上我們從107年的進棚案後來陸陸續續有一些化災的案件之後其實發現在這個部會的統合跟科技防災部分要持續去加強那我想我們這兩個計畫可以跟委員這邊做報告所以在我們這個非核家園的政府政策下您又把這個計畫裡面加入了這些核生化災害車輛的原因是什麼呢?"},{"start":4946.998,"end":4972.449,"text":"這個部分核生化的部分是消防署他們在處理這個核生化的災害都會第一線都會到消防單位來所以消防署這邊就會去補助重點縣市購置這個核生化的處理車這部分還是內政部他們來執行要問內政部你的計畫但是要問內政部不是我們可以把這個資料收起來跟委員做報告"},{"start":4973.766,"end":5000.123,"text":"部長我還是希望啦這麼大的一筆預算如果你沒有在業務報告中跟我們大家稍微提一下的話好像很不負責任而且是掛你的名字裡面的金額很多都還對不起來所以後續我還會再繼續問你請教我會依照委員的指教我們再提供相關的數據跟資料謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝陳金輝委員接下來請王育明委員發言"},{"start":5011.331,"end":5013.634,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請部長,請彭部長。王委員好。部長好。部長我追問一下剛剛陳金輝委員問那麼多是不是總而言之一句話就是環境部你們其實是在幫"},{"start":5027.475,"end":5044.727,"text":"國防部在分攤萬一暫時的時候需要的一些相關準備工作。 這九十億是不是就是這樣?你軍話就好。 報告員不是。因為我們是在統合所有的毒化債。 這是你力行性的業務。 我們是希望統合,因為毒化債是一個專業的。 那你過去的經費預算有編列這麼高額嗎?"},{"start":5046.668,"end":5069.311,"text":"過去其實我們很想要整合的很多所以過去沒有現在才編嗎所以是不是配合國防部跟內政部的全民防衛任性計畫應該就是啊不是不是因為我們是要保障國人那怎麼突然你可以有這麼多錢我們努力很久那別的地方部長容我提醒你別的地方更需要錢你不要本業還沒有做好"},{"start":5069.771,"end":5079.277,"text":"然後把環境部的預算就割一塊肉出去讓其他的國防部來佔你這邊的經費我覺得這樣就有點本末倒置我現在就要來檢討你環境部本身的業務是不是已經做好了剛剛你特別提到昨天在桃園爆發了這個橘色濃煙狂竄的這件事情讓桃園的居民非常的膽戰心驚我看了這個畫面都覺得很害怕"},{"start":5097.277,"end":5120.029,"text":"這個橘色含有硝酸的這個毒物這樣的一個擴散對人體其實產生非常大的一個影響我要問你這一件事情你們現在監督跟追究的情況怎麼樣你們對外我看到這個當地這個環保單位說最高可以罰到2000萬請問有嗎這一個案子你們現在掌握的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":5120.889,"end":5148.696,"text":"這個是由地方環保局,你們要監督阿對,我們會再監督,其實上那天的時候7點多發生我們8點20幾分的時候我們的化學署的這個小組應變小組已經進到那個地方了那也做好附近的這個整個監測那委員提到的是說因為那個監測數據呢因為它其實這個空屋它是一個小地方它飄到一個地方不見得會飄到那個監測站那我們附近也有一些自動的沒有我先講昨天桃園的這件,待會我要"},{"start":5149.096,"end":5150.577,"text":"公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算"},{"start":5178.188,"end":5200.447,"text":"好我希望你們不要又輕輕放下為什麼會這樣子講接下來這一案就是發生在竹科的空污數據造假案現在已經被起訴那這一案的時候當時其實才開罰多少錢你知道嗎40萬了連續三年的數據造假依照空氣污染防治法"},{"start":5201.448,"end":5222.922,"text":"怎麼會只有罰40萬?都是低標再低標。那你整個法,後來空無法修到最高的2000萬也沒有用啊。實質上你們在做這樣的事情的時候,你們有在督導地方政府嗎?特別這個還是竹科園區。連續三年的造假,你們通通不知道這件事情是怎麼爆發出來的。"},{"start":5223.422,"end":5224.342,"text":"部長你知道嗎?"},{"start":5224.342,"end":5235.068,"text":"包委員這個是我們環境部大氣師是主動的去偵查出來的。自己監測出來的嗎?還是是有吹哨者舉發的?"},{"start":5235.068,"end":5239.77,"text":"這個當然有吹哨者但是我們也主動看到這個證據。 因為你們連續3年渾然不知啊。"},{"start":5241.788,"end":5265.865,"text":"連續三年都造假其實你們根本就不知道啊那如果這麼容易造假今天我要問的就是那會有多少不肖的廠商比照辦理只要他的環安人員他懂得去調控數據數據都很好看通通都沒有超標如果今天不是吹哨者勇敢站出來會被揭發嗎你們的監控數據也監控不到啊"},{"start":5267.363,"end":5267.965,"text":" »: 報告也我們部內其實已經"},{"start":5275.441,"end":5299.692,"text":"主動檢舉移送檢調有幾個案例了那也都在偵辦當中那這個像這個案子除了吹哨者之外我們也主動看到那個數據所以基本上呢他數據造假你怎麼會看到數據數據造假其實可以從源頭各種的波普分分析出來他是不是造假所以我們的大氣師的團隊都有這樣的能力來做這個事情三年欸還說有這樣的能力那我就問你你們今年"},{"start":5300.572,"end":5328.923,"text":"你們到今年目前為止依照《空污法》這一種違法數據造假的案件到目前為止裁罰了幾例?你們主動發現了幾例?要不要請我們大氣師來講?來。我想跟委員報告目前這個資料第一關是報到環保局那環保局審查有問題的時候我們會去協助因為數量實在相當多目前在進行中應該有一個案子應該是這兩天是罰單會開出來"},{"start":5330.885,"end":5348.064,"text":"這個我想這個就一個案子到今年目前為止這個都有進到檢調系統我們就不方便再我知道我要問你的是你現在你自己主動透過中央跟地方你去揪出來的這種造假數據造假的案件到目前為止有幾件今年為止"},{"start":5349.751,"end":5365.751,"text":"今天目前具體成案的是一件那有一些是小缺失的部分小缺失因為這個要定到說真正偽造那個我今天要求部長我今天要求環境部你們要去徹底檢討就是說如果有人膽敢3年來都偽造數據"},{"start":5368.188,"end":5368.949,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":5399.268,"end":5419.577,"text":"就是你根本就沒有能力再進一步去阻止叫民眾自救所以你前端的防治是變得非常的重要所以我要求這個部分環境部應要強化你們的主動的偵查的能力就是讓這些想要有心去造假數據的公司無所遁形這才是你的正伴吶"},{"start":5420.157,"end":5438.854,"text":"你這部分才應該花更多錢,你剛剛空屋基金拿去給國防部用,假裝一些名目就是支出,這個都不是正辦。你自己的本業,我拜託你,你們的基金要用在真正的刀口上,好不好?這一件事情我要求你們要徹底再去檢討。第二件事情,你們的本業喔,"},{"start":5441.426,"end":5452.41,"text":"這個從環保署好不容易升格環境部結果你們現在竟然環評細則你們自己要自費武功啊說哎呀這個光電號最好是地方自己去審就好那幹嘛把你們升格幹嘛升格這個連詹順貴前環保署的副署長都看不下去啊"},{"start":5462.383,"end":5489.764,"text":"好不容易權力到你手上的時候你又升格又有資源結果你要把你的責任下放給地方你就不想管賴清德總統昨天在民進黨中常會還說什麼面對地方政治勢力跟黑道勾結絕不寬待光電弊案重生你們竟然還要把這個審核這個環評的這個監督權就丟給地方那不是讓他地方官官相護嗎"},{"start":5491.718,"end":5495.562,"text":" bicy 部長,你的態度是怎麼樣?你為什麼允許這樣的事情呢?"},{"start":5495.562,"end":5510.335,"text":"bicy 因為這個是上個會期立法院的需求就是說希望我們再對這個...立法院的需求立法院有提醒我們要修改這個中央跟地方的這個相關的執法那也提醒我們要把光電放進來所以我們光電呢"},{"start":5510.635,"end":5536.646,"text":"是要你加演不是放鬆啊?加演加演新增的因為過去光電是沒有的那你怎麼會反而是要讓地方政府自己來審呢?委員是15到30MW他是屬於可以地方那30以上是中央但是我其實今天也正式做一個宣布這些還是由我們全部來處理好部長你現在正式對著委員會對媒體講就是正式宣布這一個環評還是應該要留在環境部"},{"start":5536.906,"end":5560.511,"text":"沒錯沒錯那就正式承諾這樣才是擔起環境部該有的責任因為連這一個形態招他都說這個這個檢察總長他說地方財糧權過大勾結所會這個是現在弊端重生的一個問題所以環境部你就要擔起中央監督的責任我肯定部長今天具體做出這樣的承諾應該就是要這樣子做"},{"start":5563.712,"end":5590.956,"text":"最後一個我要再問部長的就是我問你一個小學堂A、B、C、D如果這個發電量都相同怎麼樣的能源組合排碳量最低A、B、C、D來請回答報告委員你的答案看起來就是低但是其實前面的如果燃氣或是加上燃煤它有很好的CCS碳捕捉風存的話它其實也可以很低"},{"start":5591.732,"end":5591.752,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":5615.807,"end":5638.341,"text":"這個可以是選擇題啊那為什麼你們執意上一次開環評大會的時候台中中火的燃煤機組不可以啊國安考量我們通通要保留下來而且還保留下來集中在全部都在台中那如果是這樣子為什麼不是原來的核能機組還可以北部南部分散來作為你的備用的能源不是也很好嗎而且還可以減碳這是科學的問題啊這個部長"},{"start":5643.127,"end":5668.822,"text":"這個連我們的這個我們那個什麼國家衛生不是國家衛生研究院中研院中研院廖俊智他都敢說出這個核能他認為還是不能排除核能的選項那我問你你認為台灣的能源選項跟你肩負著減碳的重任台灣可不可以排除完全排除核能的選項"},{"start":5669.574,"end":5692.461,"text":"如果報告委員其實你說的問題是因為燃氣我們的核能是有一個核子設施的這個處理的辦法他有一個實用的期限的那那個期限是有法律的規定那如果按照規定要新設置的話其實恐怕又要很多的一個程序所以其實跟那個所謂的燃氣我們燃煤環評通過的是不一樣的個案"},{"start":5693.615,"end":5714.167,"text":"不是不一樣的個案啦,你如果覺得核能很重要的話,那世界各國核能就是可以研議啊,可以研議處理啊,作為執政黨可以提出研議修法的選項啊,但是為什麼執意這個選項不要了?但是如果說,因為委員我們是環評的主管機關,如果要做這個研議的話,其實包含了他的是不是斷層,或是說各種的...是部長"},{"start":5717.429,"end":5733.911,"text":"如果你是環評的機關你更應該知道就是我剛問你的問題核能的減碳效果才是最好的會比燃煤真的好太多了結果你們現在環評大會在開的是保留燃煤機組但是要廢除"},{"start":5734.672,"end":5749.438,"text":"這一個核能設施這個就是政府錯誤的能源政策你氣候變遷大會你開始變也是一樣啊因為你的上上面的源頭那個政策就是錯誤啊我希望這個部長對你還是有點期許喔你這個還是要把你的這個比較客觀的從民間來的這樣一個精神齁要敢講真話有一些真的是對的事情就敢講真話就敢堅持你才會贏得"},{"start":5761.082,"end":5773.193,"text":"民心、民意才會得到更多的支持。我覺得政府官就是這樣,做對的事就對了。好不好?好,謝謝委員。謝謝。好,謝謝王育民委員。接下來請邱政軍委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我們一樣有請我們彭部長。請彭部長。"},{"start":5790.771,"end":5814.586,"text":"部長好我想請問一下我們114年度環境部主管預算編列了77.18億比今年還少了這個0.79億元那包括我們氣候署少了5349萬環管署也減少一成多大概是3.3億循環署也減少了四分之一大概是3.5億"},{"start":5816.788,"end":5835.9,"text":"部本部增加了3.3億、化學署增加了4億。中央政府總預算年年都在增加,已經突破了三兆。各部會都在增加,只有環境部不增反減,是所有部會倒數的前兩名。你可以接受嗎?"},{"start":5839.142,"end":5866.468,"text":"包括委員因為我第一次當公務人員那我來上任之後其實也很想增加預算但是我後來才知道說這個預算的編定其實在工建計畫或是科技計畫都要提早半年就要去做決定所以你是說明年就會增加就對了我現在一直督促我們的所有的私屬的同仁我們都要提新的計畫那我們的確希望在後年可以大幅度的增加那當然也需要委員給我們支持"},{"start":5867.188,"end":5896.207,"text":"好,我希望你要為你的那個業務啊,該做的事情不能省略的還是要繼續加油啦。對,因為委員你說的都是我心裡面的話。我就在問齁,就是說明年的預算三減,你認為影響最大的業務是什麼?目前因為我們這個經費雖然少,主要是那個計畫跟計畫它有一個時間性。剛好有些計畫這時候變少了,到期了。那有些計畫又輕增加了。所以這個數字齁,基本上我們對我們業務不會有直接的影響。但是我還是期待有增加的機會啦。"},{"start":5897.068,"end":5900.532,"text":"那個垃圾處理你覺得你可以先減少了3.3億"},{"start":5904.19,"end":5928.616,"text":"這個對我們因為這個垃圾的處理我們預計有12億在未來大概兩年內可以完成所以不會排擠到我們現在垃圾處理的你後面就是你之前的預算還有就對了還沒有還有還有就是這個是一個長期的包含了垃圾的處理有一個長期的預算那你覺得你你前陣子啊信誓旦旦說這個兩年內要把53座的垃圾餐消失啊對結果我就看到最近的預算少了7億你說這個預算不會影響嗎"},{"start":5931.212,"end":5946.2,"text":"我請我們署長來回答好不好?謝謝委員那個垃圾部分我們是不同的科目在執行那這個12億在未來3年之內執行上面要減少這53座不會有問題"},{"start":5947.04,"end":5964.988,"text":"那我們這個預算有減少的大概是在我們多元垃圾處理計畫跟我們的文化廠那個部分目前的文化廠在整改的數目有稍微減少一點點我們依照實際的年度需求去編列你說那個垃圾山你們少了5座嗎?你們是怎麼處理?"},{"start":5968.35,"end":5989.645,"text":"我說你那5座是怎麼消失的?當然這5座就是比較小的,但是全部都是垃圾嗎?都可以焚化都可以燒就對了。但是跟委員特別報告不是消失而是依照標準的掩埋操作把它操作完成,不影響環境。所以那些打包的是已經不能進焚化爐的?"},{"start":5992.106,"end":6003.892,"text":"是以後還是可以那現在怎麼處理啊現在就是打包好符合這個那只是買起來看不到不是嗎先放在那裡先放在標準的掩埋場裡面不影響環境"},{"start":6006.067,"end":6009.811,"text":"公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算"},{"start":6022.564,"end":6040.018,"text":"兩年就是說目前到後年的年底要把它完成就把這53座全部處理掉53座就可以從中拿去燒就對了那原本處理掉的勒你現在的現在的這個五座山你不是只是暫時掩埋嗎還要挖起來"},{"start":6040.738,"end":6068.63,"text":"沒有,我們是先不要露天裸露,不要露天裸露,但是我們先有的是把它蓋起來,或更好的篩分的處理,目前是先這樣做,那這個是兩年內要完成的事情,不要露天裸露。好啦,我希望我們不要做好幾段的工作啦,能夠一次解決就最好,要不然的話我看幾年之內我們的垃圾山又會跑出來,對不對,台灣很小欸,對不對,台灣不大,台灣哪有那麼多地方可以買垃圾。"},{"start":6071.932,"end":6080.877,"text":"另外我再想環管署針對空屋、水屋還有廢棄物查案明年只編了62萬的業務費、233萬的差旅費預計查空屋要520件、水屋要290件、噪音15件、廢棄物處理950件、毒性化學物質7件"},{"start":6096.26,"end":6112.37,"text":"那噪音稽查件數比今年少的40%那反而地方噪音稽查去年已經接近了11萬件那請問部長這麼少的預算要怎麼樣有效去控制這個東西你中央跟地方要怎麼分工來請我們署長來"},{"start":6115.081,"end":6140.996,"text":"公務委員報告其實中央跟地方的分工他是依照原則上這些空水費除了環評監督是由中央來做主導以外那地方如果發生重大案件或技術設備不足的部分那我們才會前往去支援所以你是丟給地方就對了丟給地方去做全責上就是地方在做全責上依照那個"},{"start":6141.716,"end":6159.077,"text":"所有的環保法規在地方就是地方政府沒有錯所以他的責任是在地方就對了是是是那你們要做好監督的角色啊好不好不然我看你這個這個就算是監督臺灣也你這個錢這個錢我真的不曉得你們要怎麼做是對不對這個這個經費有點少啊是"},{"start":6162.418,"end":6189.556,"text":"主要是我們人力的部門我怕你做不到事啊你沒有辦法完成預期的一個效果謝謝委員請書長你這邊再加油啦另外循環署的預算本來就不夠明年再減少3.5億剩下11億元那地方受到很大的影響部長你知不知道我們苗栗後龍的資源回收處理廠因為中央政策改變而被迫關廠那好不容易找到用地那需要1.6億"},{"start":6190.957,"end":6210.165,"text":"那循環署卻只能補助這個2500萬這是今年才增加的一個限制還要必須要求他們跨區能夠處理那其他公管頭份的資源回收場的計畫到目前都還沒有下文我不曉得你這個你要怎麼樣來推動呢"},{"start":6211.906,"end":6236.494,"text":"好,我們先請徐萬樹。我想因為在回收場部分我們是盡量說可以讓他可以這個明朗,如果說真的是需要因為那個後龍那個是需要有一些土地水路保持齁,那所以希望能夠有地方政府這邊也可以來支持一下。地方你苗栗苗栗就沒有錢,他的那個財政就非常困難哪有辦法去協助欸。你們一億多的東西你們給我兩千,兩千多萬我們怎麼做?"},{"start":6240.916,"end":6251.525,"text":"對不對?像這個東西你們既然要補助,既然要做,就做給他徹底。你丟在那邊我們到底是要整地還是幹嘛用呢?到時候還是不能用啊。"},{"start":6252.689,"end":6274.74,"text":"我希望說我們一個政策出來既然要做就把它做好嘛,你丟這個東西地方根本沒辦法處理的啊。好,包委員其實這個我會可能因為我們現在在爭取後年的預算啦,希望可以再更多一點點。因為這個預算的這個申請要有一個時間的落差。好啦,請部長再多幫忙啦齁。沒問題。那最後齁,我想請問喔。"},{"start":6275.74,"end":6293.777,"text":"根據紐約時報的報導川普已經籌備行政命令將宣布退出巴黎協定氣候協定並擴大石化專炭和採礦及撤銷甲烷的排放費那部長你認為這個大哥如果退出氣候協定陳真"},{"start":6294.798,"end":6323.305,"text":"我們台灣小弟要不要隨時跟上?我們正在密切注意所以我們會跟上嗎?基本上我們台灣很多的出口還是要到歐洲、美國而且我們是一個社會的一份子那美國可能也是一個短暫的所以我們正在密切觀察因為我看到這個如果他這個通過他確定了可能會帶動其他國家在跟進據我所知其實很多國家都一直在觀望那我們台灣是跑得比較快的"},{"start":6323.945,"end":6349.191,"text":" tatto比較快當然因為其他國家可能因為經濟的原因他不敢太衝太快那臺灣的話我也希望部長你能夠多為我們企業來考量好這個部分呢當然我們我們如果當然要配合全世界的一個腳步也不要自己衝得太快好不好好希望也部長也能考慮一下臺灣這個整個的整理的經濟面好不要被這個影響的好沒問題我們正在研究謝謝委員建議謝謝"},{"start":6353.228,"end":6361.311,"text":"謝謝邱政軍委員。那等一下在蘇清泉委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。接下來請廖偉祥委員發言。謝謝主席。有請彭部長。請彭部長。"},{"start":6375.68,"end":6400.396,"text":"六位好部長你好部長那個我想要請教一下政府歷年來都有進行這個水質保護的計畫那最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的這個永續水質推動計畫安淡削減示範計畫那這個計畫呢過去也明定了聚焦在整治南侃溪等7條河流喔等一下我的簡報"},{"start":6402.298,"end":6427.114,"text":"但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫的這個2.0就是113年到116年的時候2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這些這7條河川那我先想要請問一下說部長這7條河川第一期的時候108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億包括基金的3億多快3億5那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何"},{"start":6429.079,"end":6452.89,"text":"委員這個其實還是有在治理啦我必須說這個還是有延續的在做啦那至於到底每一條合作的好不好我請我師長來回答好不好對我想要請問過去你們覺得治理成效如何是這個剛才委員關心的這個計畫當時對你的一個目標是氨氮的一個消減就是它的濃度要小於3mgp的目標但是我只想要問你們覺得你們自己做的怎麼樣"},{"start":6453.471,"end":6469.073,"text":"對,我們從整體的檢討基本上有符合目標要求的70%,那我們的達標率是71%。你們看一下這個PowerPoint,你們現在是說分數是99.82優等,所以換言之你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的對不對?"},{"start":6469.714,"end":6485.911,"text":"按照計劃要求的工項我們是有把它完成的。 那部長我想給你看這個表格可以清楚看到108年到112年安淡含量為嚴重污染河川最下面那裡包括依序是從6條變9條再變10條再變6條又回到9條所以"},{"start":6491.724,"end":6513.149,"text":" bicyncy效果其實並不好又回到原點那如果說看計畫最後兩年的數據部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重啊算是越整治越差所以我只是想問說那這樣的經費算不算是真的丟到水裡了呢那也是我想問這樣2.0是不是不敢寫說為什麼沒有在聚焦這些河川"},{"start":6514.289,"end":6541.802,"text":"我跟委員報告雖然1、2年年底的這個水質的狀況是呈現這樣但事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用分別是南侃溪跟二仁溪它是目前的這個濃度都有大幅的下降所以基本上是那個工程雖然當時年底完工了但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年所以從今年的上半年所以你意思是說接下來才會更好因為上一年是有因為有一些"},{"start":6542.802,"end":6557.448,"text":"公程的問題嗎?好那另外一張表格喔數據顯示從108年喔之後只有111年稍微短暫下降其他的各項評比都是偏高尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31好然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183"},{"start":6564.631,"end":6577.141,"text":"那部長現在2.0還要編26億將近26億9千萬喔我想要請問這具體目標是什麼因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的啊那總不能跟第一期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧"},{"start":6578.108,"end":6579.189,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於環境部部主管預算案"},{"start":6598.76,"end":6612.786,"text":"您要達到的數值因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛那我剛剛已經講出來很多的結果是不好那你現在跟我說因為有工程或等等的問題好那我問你你現在新的第二期的部分你覺得要怎麼表達"},{"start":6614.167,"end":6634.454,"text":"我們是以國家環境保護計畫119年我們要把所有的嚴重污染的策戰全部拖延那目前我們覺得這個目標會在中南部的河川因為有一些畜牧業的污染相較比較嚴重還有一些生活污水沒有到達下水道的管線沒有到達"},{"start":6635.074,"end":6660.18,"text":"所以那個嚴重污染策戰的一個削減呢我們接下來的一個目標會著重在中南部河川的一個削減好我想要講的事情是因為你第一期前面那4年那20多億今天我們是預算會期你那20多億表現的就是不是你們當然自評覺得很好可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣好那現在新的我剛剛也講其他數據是這樣那所以我要提醒你未來4年這筆經費你究竟是什麼具體目標"},{"start":6663.101,"end":6689.643,"text":"是不是在預算的時候你要提供出來讓大家知道?另外這個部長除了安淡減量之外還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾也就是所謂的川廢那目前日前的報導有這個綠色和平看這個簡報綠色和平調查我國的指標河川塑膠調查發現塑膠垃圾佔比非常高那這些河廢呢沖到海裡又會變海廢"},{"start":6690.484,"end":6715.46,"text":"所以會讓我們的臺灣許多海岸不滿垃圾情都情不完請教部長要如何降低穿廢的情形這個其實還是要從改變這個這個整個的源頭減量做起所以這個我們會努力不過目前來說的話這個其實是要改變他的習慣因為其實的確我自己也去撿了很多的垃圾在海邊河邊其實的確一直撿還是一直都有是啊對所以"},{"start":6716.3,"end":6735.098,"text":"好,我再進一步就教根據這個112年度的向海致敬這個海岸清潔維護計畫計畫的這個平和的報告中結論表示分析海岸垃圾的組成漁業相關的廢棄物佔總量的大概七成那其中發泡浮球佔29%漁網繩索28%硬塑膠浮球12%塑膠品11%等等那"},{"start":6742.444,"end":6757.573,"text":"這些有包含上述穿廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎?沒有沒有這個海廢是海廢但是因為穿廢也會跑到海廢去啊所以我的意思就是說有沒有包含因為我想要請教的部分就是這個數據有一點"},{"start":6759.614,"end":6786.369,"text":"讓我覺得有點落差啦也就是說如果是綠色和平講的他的報告統計塑膠穿廢是佔91%的話那到了海廢其實大概就海廢的部分呢他其實就沒有佔這麼多那我可不可以反過來推的意思是說因為海廢的量更大是不是這樣說因為海廢的量非常大所以穿廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後他也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠料塑膠廢料是這樣子的意思嗎"},{"start":6787.387,"end":6812.113,"text":"來我們請我們署長來回答謝謝謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些福球等等之類的這是大概養殖海洋活動所產生的那其實近幾年來我們已經從2200噸左右每年在海岸的垃圾降到大概每年900噸左右是有大幅的降低那這裡面"},{"start":6813.413,"end":6836.705,"text":"很重要的就是這些漁網或者是浮球目前漁網是百分之百實名制浮球也逐次改成好沒關係不好意思我想請教就是說所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢你們是也把它統計進去計算所以他們兩個數據有一個很大的落差也就是說在川廢的時候九成是塑膠垃圾到了海岸之後不是九成塑膠垃圾他可能才可能20%十幾%"},{"start":6838.266,"end":6846.348,"text":"那是不是代表說海岸垃圾還是更多?那所以船費進來到海岸變成海岸垃圾的時候它的比例並沒有因此而增高?"},{"start":6847.123,"end":6873.271,"text":"因為海廢其實包含全世界各種的地方當然當然所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎沒錯沒錯是這個意思嗎對不對對好沒關係那我再進一步來問河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海洋或這個海岸廢棄物喔那所以我想要問說其中大部分還是有這個塑膠飲料的包裝喔那國內大型業者責無旁貸嗎想要請教部長喔怎麼樣或是是不是也要要求飲料的品牌廠商負起檢索責任呢"},{"start":6874.258,"end":6893.708,"text":"報告委員其實我們一直在推那個循環杯盡量減少這個一次性的這個飲料那其實也是希望說這個通路循環杯也一起來做這個事情所以我想對我就進一步想要看一下在這次穿廢統計中非塑膠的垃圾類的品牌排名那數量最多第一名大概是佔了48%"},{"start":6895.909,"end":6907.14,"text":"其次是臺灣菸酒的9%所以兩者相差6倍我想要問這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的這個退貧押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢?"},{"start":6907.944,"end":6909.725,"text":"所以沒有我現在已經跟你討論到就是這個檢縮的部分了"},{"start":6925.854,"end":6947.293,"text":"剛我是在救教那個數據的部分那我現在跟你討論到這個減塑的部分就是說因為我們塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們自定明年的減塑目標明顯是達不到明顯是達不到那整體一次性的塑膠品的產量不減反增剛剛你們說雖然說你做了很多好像措施可是數據我想這個部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認嘛對"},{"start":6947.993,"end":6962.982,"text":"在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢?"},{"start":6963.871,"end":6988.395,"text":"報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約"},{"start":6988.595,"end":7008.067,"text":"那另外一個我就是想提那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助比如說降低有機再生質的這個質料及質塑料的生產成本因為他的這個生產成本就相對比較高嘛這部分是有可能的嗎還是有機再生生質塑料"},{"start":7009.121,"end":7037.427,"text":"好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請"},{"start":7038.448,"end":7053.863,"text":"委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用"},{"start":7054.423,"end":7070.451,"text":"好,這個委員我們在努力,的確我們,我的確也是去看了這些,但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來。那如果部長有這方面的,到時候有這方面的進一步的研究,或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本席辦公室參考。好,沒問題,沒問題。好,謝謝部長。謝謝,謝謝。謝謝廖偉祥委員。接下來請盧先英委員發言。"},{"start":7085.276,"end":7113.096,"text":"就是有請部長。請彭部長。欸,陸委員早。彭部長早。通常我們在看環境的問題的話,我們先看都會區的,然後我們再想一下原鄉的一個問題。我們先看都會區平均性為例的話,大概這個一個月之內可以告發27個業者關於農畜牧產業的廢棄的一些污染物,污染水源。"},{"start":7113.756,"end":7132.029,"text":"那我看了一下那大概財閥大概就是10萬塊如果說按照空氣污染的這個告發是10萬塊如果是因為牧場的流水色不佳可以才把6000到60萬元那我是想說常常發生這樣的事情是不是因為他的罰款太低了"},{"start":7133.124,"end":7137.189,"text":"一個月內告發27個月業者,你先用這個邏輯來想,然後我們再想原住民的地區。"},{"start":7149.554,"end":7166.905,"text":"我是來自屏東縣馬家鄉。馬家鄉有一個部落叫做法灣村。他原本的部落是我們排灣村的根源地,也就是我們的發祥地。他現在在民國40幾年半到這個地方以後,他們是先來的。"},{"start":7167.665,"end":7170.746,"text":" bicyclist of the United States of America"},{"start":7195.538,"end":7198.1,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告業務．"},{"start":7226.992,"end":7229.833,"text":"公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算"},{"start":7253.2,"end":7270.348,"text":"他們是我們排灣組的發祥第一個部落在那裡結果如果我要去那邊我都要考慮說我等一下去那邊是不是又要跟蒼蠅在一起又要跟那些異位在一起請問對他們來講是非常的可憐所以請你能夠針對這個普通公司能夠做一個研究可以嗎"},{"start":7270.908,"end":7295.365,"text":"好可以委員其實也怪我看了很多個類似這樣的案例已經有一些新的做法做那普風呢是台灣很大型的企業那我有找機會我也去看一下通常我們都很羨慕人家說日本的什麼養雞場什麼養豬場都沒有意味然後還可以聽音樂我們不想這麼天堂的事情那我們先解決部落的問題好不好"},{"start":7295.785,"end":7296.606,"text":"第二就是我們關山那個"},{"start":7323.698,"end":7346.08,"text":"不是,就是我有去參加關山的那個戰備跑道不過去關心我們台東市那個噪音的管制那個補助的一個方法他現在國防部的噪音補助是根據他們國防部的一個規定可是這麼多年來沒有改變過我希望環境部能夠針對台東市的這個噪音能夠做一個研究"},{"start":7346.721,"end":7374.655,"text":"因為現在我們如果是增加10分貝的話是10倍20分貝的話是100倍30分貝的話是1000倍這樣的方式來去研究每一個里那個按照那個軍用機場叫自航基地那個每5公里或是每1公里那個分貝數去研究一下他們現在在那邊開民宿業者沒有人要去住啊因為噪音太大如果去那邊睡覺根本沒有辦法睡覺所以我是希望他們這個噪音補償能夠用民航的規定現在是用"},{"start":7375.715,"end":7404.042,"text":"但是這個噪音管制辦法是希望有中央主管機關會同國防部定制。現在完全是國防部一個人在弄,沒有辦法取得民眾的諒解。所以請環境部跟國防部一起來研究好不好?因為這個是國防部主管,那我會跟我們同仁來討論一下如何去研議解決這個事情。我知道你們明年有訂那個噪音的那個經費看一下。"},{"start":7405.794,"end":7406.114,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":7421.792,"end":7450.16,"text":"五百公尺一公里兩公里的話它的分貝是多少而做這樣的補償可以嗎OK 報告委員這個是這個計畫是針對那個騎重機那個autobike去家常集合的啦不是這個機場的噪音我知道因為就一般的民眾來講他們沒有這樣的設備去檢測他到底噪音對他的生活的影響嘛那是不是台東那邊也可以做一個這樣的一個研究讓他們做補償有一個依據我們請問我們大氣石市長"},{"start":7450.96,"end":7465.046,"text":"跟那個委員報告目前那個軍用航空機場的噪音國防部這邊每一個就是機場每一個每一季會把這個噪音監測結果報到環保局這邊來然後如果說整個民眾的疑慮是說它是用24小時當然是24小時的話是"},{"start":7469.369,"end":7483.463,"text":"因為照樣量測有個規定,如果說委員這邊有建議的話,那我們可以找黃碧雲局我們再測一次。我們測一次是10天。10天坐下來,然後去評估說他的照樣等級到哪裡。"},{"start":7484.384,"end":7502.387,"text":" bicyncy是不是戰機起降比較頻繁?那個噪音的問題是不是比較嚴重?剛剛這個居民說他們是願意配合國家的政策不過他們這10年來只補助一台冷氣3萬塊然後清密窗而已其他什麼都沒有而且是一視同仁"},{"start":7503.248,"end":7526.566,"text":"沒有因為地域的關係而做更改所以我們希望有一個等級嘛有一個級距可以嗎我們兩個一個良策部分我們再安排一下那公務部那部分我們因為補助是他們那邊主導的最後也是募領的部分也就是關山鎮月梅堆肥廠他們在11月6號民眾有到那邊無論是議員還有部門主任去那邊抗議說"},{"start":7527.607,"end":7528.648,"text":" bicyclone"},{"start":7557.407,"end":7585.301,"text":"學校距離不到500公尺那以後學校上課的話真的是要緊閉門窗還要開空調還要開空氣清淨機這些費用誰要來支付?其實因為關山鎮他們鎮長是非常積極是改善畜牧業養豬廢水的所以我們也要一起來了解一下這個部分要通盤檢討要對策可以嗎?如果它勢必要蓋的話你要一個因應的方案募領的方案可以嗎?我們這邊來研究一下謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7587.935,"end":7588.075,"text":"蘇慶泉委員"},{"start":7613.511,"end":7642.328,"text":"現在這個預算案開始了所以大家提出了問題五花八門那我今天來提小琉球先提小琉球因為我們上次有去小琉球那我們小琉球兩個港一個叫做白沙港是客運為主一個叫做大福港那大福港溫馨洗商業沙石就是貨運船都從那邊上來比較多好那我們看這個大福港"},{"start":7644.601,"end":7667.271,"text":"這個是大埔港的西側那現在有一些工程在施作應該不是環境部的吧不是不是啦看起來應該是大埔港國家公園管理處啦好下一張那結果這塊在囤土囤的要有斜坡比較好走"},{"start":7670.127,"end":7689.544,"text":"這個土方是台灣過去的還是在地的?這個要查一下,就是要去看源頭是在什麼地方?因為這個土方裡面保特瓶、垃圾、袋子、玻璃什麼都有。"},{"start":7691.397,"end":7703.812,"text":"阿各個背背的下面這張影片你看到那土把它推到那個削破塊這邊那整個削破塊就很髒那這個環境部有沒有辦法出手?處長請我們處長來"},{"start":7708.598,"end":7708.878,"text":"來下一張。"},{"start":7738.46,"end":7739.541,"text":"這個是我們上次..."},{"start":7751.448,"end":7769.086,"text":"我們小琉球上次部長去也看到齁那個利息龜現在差不多有將近1000隻了全世界可能數一數二那利息龜能夠在那邊存活第一就是東西有人吃第二就是環境要真友善"},{"start":7770.818,"end":7784.767,"text":"來的律師櫃都不想走啦,普通一定有開嘛,大家都很大隻的,有個幾百公斤的那律師櫃到底能夠活多久,我也不知道啦,有人說可以活到200年"},{"start":7786.448,"end":7786.888,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":7816.709,"end":7819.032,"text":"那這部電力我都處理過。"},{"start":7820.388,"end":7847.5,"text":"報告委員,我很想處理,但是很像是農業部的權責啦。啊,你不要在那裡貼啦,不然要我衝衝的啦,要我負責嗎?卡卡的,阿婆沙灘沒用,那裡會出問題,生態會出問題。所以這個很重要。我們來跟農業部反映一下。這個當初會去搞這個東西,實在是很好玩。我們去交通部去也覺得,上次是市長去也覺得毀於所思啦。"},{"start":7849.181,"end":7866.699,"text":"那再來,所以那一篇要弄,那再來就我們講我們的空汙啦,因為時間有限喔,所以我要變快一點喔。那檳榔關,檳榔關的工廠是共用的六分之一,共用的六千、六百幾間,那所有的"},{"start":7869.909,"end":7880.208,"text":"欸,寧願石化工業園區、新達火力發電廠、大林火力發電廠,差不多都未來啦,喔,PM5.5啊、PM10啊,我們的空汙啊、挫洋啊、幸福為力啊。"},{"start":7881.465,"end":7882.066,"text":"我們市長來回答數字。"},{"start":7905.305,"end":7928.918,"text":"市長,你怎麼沒有作為呢?不是,跟委員報告,這個我們有很積極的作為喔。平東的那個,因為空庫費現在跟委員報告,現在就是因為像固定員收了以後有60%是地方自己收。也就是說你工廠多了,所以收的比較多。另外呢,第二個是那個移動員呢,是20%,那是照加油站的發油量去付,這是第二個來源。"},{"start":7929.838,"end":7943.693,"text":"第三個呢,營建工地呢,地方全百分之百自己收。所以這樣算下來呢,屏東去年大概收了兩億一千多萬的那個空污費。這是他們自己收的。另外呢... 高雄市我們休30日。"},{"start":7945.094,"end":7974.271,"text":"沒有啦,7億都不到8億啦,才4倍啦,因為他們工廠多啊。 那你中央的空屋呢?那就是下一個重點,我們每一年補助呢,因為透過中央收的微薄的那部分的錢呢,我們來調配就是空屋費比較少的呢,像屏東,我們補助款歷年來都是第一名,明年也是第一名,有3000多萬的那個補助款,透過空屋基金在那邊給,所以只要他提得出來,"},{"start":7974.831,"end":7994.971,"text":"您有規模的公務會到底有多少啊?我們前幾年才破產啦。環境部的預算太少啦,77億還沒開呢。我也沒面子啦,所以我努力啦,我們跟我們同事都要勉勵啦,要破百億啦。"},{"start":7998.134,"end":7998.454,"text":"當然啦!"},{"start":7998.454,"end":7999.695,"text":"那個太少了啦!"},{"start":7999.695,"end":8001.255,"text":"這怎麼玩啊!"},{"start":8001.255,"end":8015.92,"text":"那我們屏東這個PM2.5PM全部都飄到屏東來。整個剛剛盧憲業在講的齁,整個泰晤啦、萊姬啦,那幾個省都每一年有三分之二的時間都只報。"},{"start":8017.12,"end":8018.221,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案2案"},{"start":8037.378,"end":8059.646,"text":"還有大林也是。他們現在一直說要改善,中頂說他們要用最新的那個燒煤的是真的有效嗎?如果說他是用那個超超臨界的話是有效啦。換成天然氣會更好啦。換成天然氣更好。不過天然氣排放又多。他少很多,比燃煤大概只燃煤的大概剩下一半左右啦。"},{"start":8061.229,"end":8086.277,"text":"空污災,多一點給屏東,好不好?這個我們會鼓勵,我努力一下。因為中央山脈的尾端就在那邊,一兩千公尺的山都擋住。我每天看那個中央山脈三角線那邊,灰茫茫的一片,以為是山藍之氣,結果那就是空氣污染。等到下雨、颱風、稍稍的,火落落的,待會就火淺氣淺氣。這個都很糟糕的事情。"},{"start":8089.571,"end":8096.275,"text":"好,那最後一個我再問你那個廁所的問題,廁所這個這一次感覺非常好,我們署長非常努力。"},{"start":8099.532,"end":8127.528,"text":"我去賀爾新機在那個機場看到那個廁所是一間一間的都是進去有馬桶就是小便桶然後有坐的馬桶那馬桶還是那個那個那個可以沖水的免治馬桶那進去沒有婚男女便宿就是便宿一間一間啊早不早都敲錯敲錯所以也沒有什麼一比幾的問題"},{"start":8129.91,"end":8145.822,"text":"二、尊重女士、男的、女的、中性的、人道的事、日日要站起來、要借眼、人道的事這很文明的啊,很現代化啊,我們他也不在推這個還在停留在說男的廁所一個小便斗,女的這邊要三間"},{"start":8147.483,"end":8150.545,"text":"三、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":8167.557,"end":8187.578,"text":"你的看法怎麼樣?報告委員 這個就是性別友善廁所啦這個也是我們努力的方向目前比例的確還有一點低但是我們新的都鼓勵要做這些事情就做這樣就沒有溫暖你的廁所不過這個也要跟委員報告這個還是會遭遇到一些團體的阻力啦但是我覺得這個是國際的趨勢還是要往那方面走"},{"start":8189.352,"end":8215.808,"text":"因為真的我們現在都尊重兩性平等、三性平等都無所謂啦。但是你自己認為我今天要用坐著,我就坐著。今天我要站著,就站著。視態力啊。我覺得做醫生的角度,我覺得這個真的是非常文明,而且是非常有衛生的。所以這個,那廁所的比例,補助公共廁所啦,補助的我們的執行效力好像不好捏,署長。"},{"start":8218.369,"end":8236.68,"text":"我們在未來到118年我們還會再有46億8750萬要興建2500座新建或修建的廁所那這個我們在努力那之前前一段已經有新建補助4290座廁所這是大於我們的KPI"},{"start":8240.642,"end":8241.282,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":8241.282,"end":8241.322,"text":"以上"},{"start":8257.051,"end":8280.5,"text":"那廁所做好像我們這次去看去屏東看這個東港啊這個都很棒但是呢廁所的維護是大問題我以前我也幫那個墾丁大街升起了一座那個時候就花500多萬那當然墾丁大街他們管理委員會接到的那些他們就請歐巴桑在那整理整理很重要啦"},{"start":8281.184,"end":8282.885,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":8282.885,"end":8288.97,"text":"請他們維護,因為那個財是長長久久啊。所以你不是只拿去去的,就送給後面後續看要怎麼弄。我是覺得這個緩和是重要的。"},{"start":8305.662,"end":8331.372,"text":"其實第一個是說要養成尊重這個清潔人員的文化啦例如說上完之後要輕輕去謝謝你啦另外一個是要把這個工作把它這種尊榮感把它拉高一點點等於是說這件事情一定要去鼓勵不要讓大家都覺得說最基本的最低見的事情而是這是有榮譽感像日本的這個職人文化一樣這是我們要努力的目標"},{"start":8333.533,"end":8341.359,"text":"預算搞多一點人家都兩三千億一兩千億七十七億笑死人了我會加油謝謝蘇清泉委員我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8358.205,"end":8385.962,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列席報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列席報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列席報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列席報告案二﹑三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部部長列�"},{"start":8393.339,"end":8399.402,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利及衛生環境部部長列席報告案二﹑一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國"},{"start":8469.155,"end":8490.162,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8957.674,"end":8985.069,"text":"好,現在繼續開會。接下來請王振旭委員發言。謝謝主席。有請彭部長。請彭部長。還有水保司王司長。請王司長。部長好。"},{"start":8988.699,"end":9009.093,"text":"市長好部長先前想要跟你討論有關於水污染防治措施跟這個檢測申報管理辦法預告修正草案以後相關的內容我們知道這個部分其實影響蠻大的尤其是對醫療院所來講他們未來如何能夠根據這個環境保護尤其是水資源的保護"},{"start":9009.953,"end":9011.675,"text":" bicycloproject.com"},{"start":9029.757,"end":9046.935,"text":"不過也因為他影響層面很大所以就利用這個機會來跟部長做一些討論那其實今年的9月26號環境部做一個預告的修正針對這個管理辦法尤其是關於這個廢棄藥物跟一些全國"},{"start":9047.936,"end":9073.642,"text":"化學化學藥物對於環境的影響因為我們知道如果使用抗生素不當管理的話其實對於抗生素的抗藥性造成的影響是非常的大那如果是像全服化學藥物這一類的話對環境影響如果對於環境造成污染或者是有過量的話他對於癌症的這個產生也有蠻大的疑慮所以對民眾的影響其實都是蠻大的"},{"start":9074.162,"end":9093.531,"text":"那針對這一部分特別規定一定規模以上的醫院跟醫療機構都需要做相關的這個檢測申報未來可能會要每年都要做一些申報那這一部分其實很希望能夠有多更多的一些瞭解跟資訊那為了應驗這些其實在6月5號也召開了這個諮商的座談會"},{"start":9099.233,"end":9118.364,"text":"應該是王市長主持的嗎?那這個座談會裡面其實就衛福部也有派了官員去參加這個相關的座談會那當場衛福部其實是有提供一些意見來做參考包括說環境部進行更多這個醫院放流水的調查"},{"start":9119.324,"end":9138.581,"text":"要有一個比較明確的這個施行日期的一個統一的部分因為希望在110年以後能夠來做相關的施行因為我們知道其實相關尤其是公立醫院如果他們要做這些改善的話他們必須要依照這個預算編列的程序"},{"start":9139.983,"end":9164.721,"text":"在時程上可能有時候也需要確定的掌握他們這個程序的部分那第二點就是關於如果院內要進行這個加濾消毒作業等等的話也希望能夠針對於大型的醫院或醫學中心能夠辦理教育訓練跟輔導來提升這個藥品削減成效才能夠達到比較好的一些措施的這個管控結果那另外有關於這個"},{"start":9166.702,"end":9188.597,"text":"就是環境部要規劃相關的環境費用等的時候其實醫療成本也會相對是提升的尤其如果說要針對這些內容要做適當申報監控的話這個對於整體醫療的成本其實是會上升的所以希望能夠考量在這個對於提升以後"},{"start":9190.298,"end":9218.958,"text":"醫療成本的增加對整個社會的衝擊第四點就是他也希望能夠環境部在針對所謂會影響到醫院跟醫療機構的部分包括長照機構跟照護中心都有一個比較聚焦型的會議來做進行相關的處理不知道到目前為止就是針對這些意見部長或者是市長有沒有其他需要再說明的進度的部分"},{"start":9219.638,"end":9245.852,"text":"對,好,謝謝委員的這個建議,其實目前都是照委員的這個建議正在進行當中那例如說包含116年開始實施那我們也就照這樣方式進行那其實不管環境部也跟衛福部也都有對醫療院所的廢水處理有進行教育訓練那另外一個呢是社會的衝擊我們也知道因為驗一次其實也要花個9到10萬所以的確會造成這個醫院的一個成本"},{"start":9246.032,"end":9259.445,"text":"但是其實也有一些醫生認為那個就是醫院本來要做的所以這個有些正反的一個意見那另外一個的是目前其實我們到9月跟10月都包含了11月都會有一些延伸的法案這個細節的部分是不是請我們市長簡單的回應"},{"start":9262.408,"end":9289.23,"text":"謝謝委員關心跟指教那這個部分我們包括調查的部分116年實施事實上我們有分兩階段有一些項目我們是118年才實施這部分會處理另外最後一個就是對於影響到的一個醫療院所基本上我們在下個禮拜四就會有這個草案的一個公聽演商相關的一個會議我們也會通知這個衛福部跟相關的一些醫院受影響的醫院我們也會一起來"},{"start":9290.111,"end":9298.49,"text":"゚✧"},{"start":9298.655,"end":9326.395,"text":"所以我確定一下11月21號這一個研商會議會是很大型的會議還是說針對於比較醫院跟醫療機構相關的比較聚焦型的這個會議跟委員報告我們這是公開的公聽研商會公聽會所以大家都可以參加所以我們除了實體會議之外我們也開放視訊就是可以連上視訊之後一起來聽聽各界的意見跟給我們建言"},{"start":9326.815,"end":9352.881,"text":"了解所以我意思就是說如果這是很大型的公廳會那可能不只是醫療相關的院所可是因為我們知道醫院的廢棄物或者是這個排放水有它比較特殊的層面所以是不是也可以請師長這邊針對於醫療機構在這個部分有一個屬於比較聚焦型的相關會議能夠讓他們在執行的時候更能夠掌握到這些重點"},{"start":9354.161,"end":9377.288,"text":"好謝謝委員指教齁其實這個部分我們會遵照委員的指示例如說醫療院所或是相關的單位我們分門別類來處理因為這樣聚焦才可以得到更精準的意見好謝謝那我們也知道其實大家對於抗生素的使用都非常非常的擔心啦齁也希望能夠該用就應該用那如果可以做一個好的控制的話"},{"start":9378.428,"end":9396.508,"text":"最重要的是抗生素的抗藥性已經是全球要面對的問題那新型的抗生素要研發出來也相當的困難所以針對於這個抗生素的這些處理模式大家都會非常非常的需要去用更好的方式來處理"},{"start":9397.749,"end":9415.46,"text":"在修正草案裡面其實也提供了不同的新興要關注的項目包括某些的抗生素跟後面要去處理的抗生素這邊我們可以看到在第一項是要在115年1月1日就要開始試用另外是118年會試用其實醫院這邊也"},{"start":9420.023,"end":9445.422,"text":"相當的擔心那這一些部分列管項目是不是能夠透過設備跟技術來做有效的這些污水處理那如何協助院所來辦法來做施行來有機會來達標那最後就是他們也很希望了解這個列管項目是不是跟國際標準一致那這部分不知道目前部裡面或者是施裡面有沒有相關的一些處理措施"},{"start":9446.183,"end":9449.412,"text":"包委員 這個其實是草案 現在在研議當中 我們細節請市長來報告"},{"start":9451.525,"end":9477.692,"text":"跟委員說明剛才提到的這三點基本上有關這個廢水中如果有排放這個抗生素的一個這個濃度如果過高我們基本上規定基本上是有一個疫警值那如果有疫警值的話就要採取作為包括這個汙水處理設備我們的調查發現汙水處理設備如果正常操作效能提升的話也是有很好的處理效力所以基本上我們會希望能夠輔導就是在處理技術上面的"},{"start":9478.532,"end":9505.809,"text":"與設備上能不能夠妥善的處理達到處理的效能這是第一個如果處理效能沒有辦法達標的話進一步的改善的做法可以有一些評估的程序我們來協助看看怎麼樣跟衛福部做一些輔導的做法讓醫院的廢污水處理設備也能夠有一定的升級跟處理當然藥品的部分如果能夠妥善的去了解"},{"start":9506.269,"end":9532.413,"text":"因為基本上我們也是一個預警從環境的角度最後的角度來預警說這個用料用量跟回收有沒有其他可以加強的地方也是要醫院自主去做相關的一些檢視跟管理是了解那其實我們也知道國際有很多的這些先進國家也都有類似的管控措施所以我相信我們如果能夠繼續努力的話應該就可以把這些內容做得更好"},{"start":9533.053,"end":9555.949,"text":"最後是有關於醫院S口形式節能減碳的進度的部分我在上次10月7號的時候也有跟部長討論過這個問題這一次在兩個禮拜前去嘉義大埔考察有關於太陽光電造成的這種環境的影響"},{"start":9557.19,"end":9574.805,"text":"在現場跟業次長瞭解這部分針對於如何能夠節能檢探在醫療院所這部分那他也跟我做了一些說明那這個說明裡面就會包括說如何能夠深度的節能針對於尤其是大型醫院的部分那他"},{"start":9575.365,"end":9602.017,"text":"也讓我知道目前的進度即使是很值得大家共同關注那麼我也知道真的環境部做了很多很多的努力那這部分可不可以在年底之前也提供書面資料讓我這邊來做一些參考好謝謝報告委員因為這個是有三個部位金管會還有衛福部經濟部三個次長有一個平臺就特別來處理這個事情那我們現在平臺到最後討論完了結果年底之前再跟委員特別報告"},{"start":9602.737,"end":9609.22,"text":"好,那就麻煩部長。好,謝謝委員,謝謝。謝謝王振旭委員。接下來請楊瓊英委員發言。謝謝主席,請部長,請彭部長。"},{"start":9628.507,"end":9646.638,"text":"部長好,我們繼續來討論中華的議題。那我們知道目前為止政府跟我們地方的民眾跟我們台中市議會、台中市政府的意見還是有一些分歧。"},{"start":9648.179,"end":9658.39,"text":"當然我們必須要以站在民眾的健康為基準尤其站在你環境部維護環境的立場我想這一點你可以認同吧所以我們繼續討論因為在環評會的當中並沒有說明整個減煤"},{"start":9668.581,"end":9671.082,"text":"中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":9696.616,"end":9700.418,"text":"二、審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":9713.303,"end":9723.65,"text":"那尤其曾董事長也在現場也說了也就是說從1260萬公噸的燃煤量可以由2031年之後去遞減那也就是減煤多少300萬公噸那換句話說到2031年之後有可能達到900萬噸"},{"start":9737.159,"end":9761.464,"text":"但是當我們地方聽到這個訊息很緊張很緊張的意思是什麼現在我們每一年大概是1100那為什麼會在2031年竟然說的是1260萬公噸這個是公開的訊息所以本席要在這邊請教請教也就是在整個環評沒有將"},{"start":9763.624,"end":9765.565,"text":"中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":9784.654,"end":9803.609,"text":"如果以卓魁跟曾董事長所說那我們未來有可能會成為全世界最大的火力發電廠那這個會嚴重的影響到我們整個臺中人所以本席要請教你身為部長你要怎麼樣把關你要怎麼把關"},{"start":9804.73,"end":9830.167,"text":"我們台中人不能擁有低汙染嗎?我們不能擁有低汙染、低排碳的這個環境嗎?我們已經付出了那麼那麼的多。請教部長要怎麼應對?好,報告委員喔,其實因為那天環評的結論包含了減煤量都有把它提供出來那其實也跟卓院長到台中還有我們的曾董事長到台中說的其實我們有對照都是一樣的數據"},{"start":9831.328,"end":9853.959,"text":"那一樣的數據更恐怖了我現在我現在只有1100到1200你明明白白赤裸裸的告訴我2031年是1260萬公噸我們中部人怎麼辦怎麼會可以如此你環評通過了你就赤裸裸告訴我煤炭的量我們中部人怎麼辦部長"},{"start":9856.288,"end":9872.451,"text":"我幾乎要用懇求因為你是部長欸你是環境部的部長你不能當為經濟部底下的環境師欸報告委沒有喔 對不對我們沒有我們完全是嚴格審查我們嚴格監督他的這個使用美的這個量那為什麼2031年告訴我們的是1260那換句話說從現在開始到2031年7年你的"},{"start":9880.633,"end":9882.875,"text":"檢煤怎麼檢?怎麼檢?當然現在我再一次告訴你現在的量是1100至1200公噸對不對你怎麼可以你到2031年是1260萬公噸部長就這個議題"},{"start":9906.98,"end":9931.345,"text":"你一時間答不出來我願意給你時間你去把我理清楚我要求的沒關係我要求的是說環評通過了我們中部人很無奈可是我們還是要捍衛我們的健康你們的減煤你從現在開始到2031年你的減煤你的量數要怎麼樣去探題你請書面資料給本席好不好多久時間給我"},{"start":9934.22,"end":9951.978,"text":"這個減煤的量是要台電他們提供的。 多久時間給我沒關係你告訴我。 兩週內。 兩週內告訴我以人民的健康為基準。 以減煤的量數為基準好不好沒關係你提供給本席接下來本席要告訴你肺癌已經是國人十大癌症的死因第一名。"},{"start":9953.01,"end":9980.191,"text":"這已經很多年對不對我們中部地區更可憐更可憐沒有人就成不了國家了啦所以我要拜託部長我們看到WHO已經將PM2.5的平均濃度標準下修對不對對沒錯他從15下修加鹽到12維克每立方米對不對他最終目標對最終最終而且沒有不是最終目標而且離喔離WHO的5維克"},{"start":9983.354,"end":9997.668,"text":"他最終目標是五維克對不對最終目標是五維克喔你你是專家你講清楚最終目標是五維克他現在要修他是修到從加研到12所以可以顯示這個議題的嚴重性"},{"start":10001.152,"end":10028.26,"text":"危害到人民的健康所以部長本席要要求我們怎麼樣去管制這個措施的一個成效你要怎麼樣滾動性的去檢討空污的防治方案請你告訴我報告委員其實空污的來源除了點源像中火也有線源交通也有面源整個範圍其實中部的汽機車還是在增加的還要各方面多方的管制但是我們中火還是最大宗"},{"start":10029.06,"end":10048.508,"text":"沒有,其實中華在過去這幾年我們有監督它的用煤量顯著的減少,總污染量也顯著的減少,但是其實台中還有很多的...部長你有一個觀念本席要告訴你,我以台中人的身份告訴你。中華減煤是應當的,空污要改善也是應當的,因為我們已經付出了那麼多。"},{"start":10050.024,"end":10066.676,"text":"獲出了那麼多這是應當的不要再告訴我以前我們有撿多少沒院長已經告訴我們了2031年1260讓我嚇一跳我現在才1100到1200他告訴我的是如此這7年我們怎麼過"},{"start":10067.717,"end":10092.722,"text":"你是不是要無斷的給我增加?所以我願意跟你理性討論,你告訴我,你順便資料給我,怎麼樣去防範這些空污,你怎麼樣滾動去討論這些的措施。所以,碳費的問題,上一次本席跟你討論過了。專款專用在碳的這個制度改善,這個大家有共識。給地方,那麼大家也有共識。"},{"start":10094.343,"end":10111.583,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我也謝謝你上次你也認同我說中華是很嚴重的很嚴肅的一個議題所以我們應當分配的時候應該要加成的分配這個你也說你同意納入考量嗎"},{"start":10112.524,"end":10136.016,"text":"所以我請教部長也就是我們在討論碳費用途的這個屋管基金會的委員將地方政府來納入聽到真正人民的聲音是否成案會不會將地方政府來納入讓他們成為委員來共同討論目前這個法這個我們因為屋管基金的執法現在正在送行政院的審查我們也預公告這個是時機啊"},{"start":10137.917,"end":10158.696,"text":"對,那這個未來我們真的會列入考慮。對,會列入考慮。不是考慮,你要去達證成功。但是也報告委員,你的立場是贊成是不是?其實我們環境部有一半的預算都是給地方在做使用的。我請問,將地方政府納入成為委員,你的立場是贊成的嗎?所以你才會送嗎?"},{"start":10159.697,"end":10177.476,"text":"其實這個目前我們未來就是看這個法案的修正的狀況但是這個原則性我們因為環境部包含的委員也是來自於地方所以其實我們跟地方的合作是非常密切的所以會納入嗎可以納入來考慮那什麼時候你們會開會你們KPI大概都多久"},{"start":10177.996,"end":10196.603,"text":"目前預計是明年年初啦,因為這個法案還在審查,因為還要委員的聆聘等等。 對對對對,所以明年年初開會,我也希望你的提供將地方政府納為委員,實際上聽到民眾的聲音,居城的聲音齁,你平平點頭。接下來我最後一個議題也就是我們"},{"start":10197.563,"end":10222.571,"text":"中華的碳排如此那所以我說的我們如市長說八成分給地方你還有兩成啊還是可以去分配啊這個是全國一致性那不管分配多少我還是要拜託中華的地區你應該要有加成的比例分配因為我們付出最多我們必須要減的要蓋的也是最多同意嗎"},{"start":10223.879,"end":10247.269,"text":"二氧化碳跟空污污染物是不一樣的東西二氧化碳例如說我現在講話也排除二氧化碳你會受到我的影響健康傷害嗎不會所以碳排跟空污這兩件事情是可以不一樣的來看待的啦那委員的建議我們會納入考慮是不一樣的看待當然但是還是回歸本席的議題所以我具體建議付出那麼多的人"},{"start":10248.109,"end":10249.61,"text":"除了要怎麼跟世界接軌之外必須先決條件要讓地方可以一起來參與實際上的去改善嘛"},{"start":10268.268,"end":10271.512,"text":"對我還是具體建議這個對我要謝謝你具體建議我們中國的地區我們台中在分配的時候必須要加成加重比例分配給我們去改善我認為這個是對全國絕對有幫助的"},{"start":10285.126,"end":10308.142,"text":"報告委員地方環保局還有更多可以改善空污的空間我們也希望台中市更努力啦我們非常的努力但是我們的污染源這麼多但是還有很多縣市更努力希望台中很努力我們非常努力你不用跟我辯因為跟我辯沒有用跟我辯是沒有用的你懂意思嗎因為人民的健康只有一個所以希望你能夠納入好嗎好謝謝委員指教謝謝"},{"start":10312.732,"end":10329.98,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員的發言。謝謝部長。下一位我們請林淑芬委員發言。好,謝謝主席。是不是來請我們彭部長。好,有請彭部長。"},{"start":10332.995,"end":10345.758,"text":"李委員好部長最近你們預告了修正環評法的施行細則大家都在問就是說大家長期以來所關注的比如說老舊環評要退場黃線叉只做一次比如說環境監測還有督查的資料你們都沒有公開比如說採礦的這個要不要納入管理的這些細節的討論你們通通沒有優先去這個做"},{"start":10360.262,"end":10370.452,"text":" bicyclope 高度關注的你們沒有而你們現在現立法院於不易現我們未完委員會於不易的是說你們因為今年3月然後這個未完委員會通過臨時提案臨時提案立法院臨時提案"},{"start":10377.438,"end":10382.5,"text":"你們曾幾何時會這麼的重視呢所以你們說臨時提案要求開發行為應實施環境影響評估項目及這個範圍認定標準立法院要求你們做修正可是大家都知道立法院要求的是要你們從嚴結果你獻我們未還委員會於不義你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的你給他放寬了然後說這是立法院要求的提案要求的"},{"start":10407.028,"end":10410.23,"text":"這裡敢問立法院敢問衛環委員會的委員徵效這是以衛環陷我們於不義然後去刑你們要放寬之時所以今天在這裡我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館文教設施、光電等開發的這一些環評的權限你把中央本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放下放給地方審查"},{"start":10436.167,"end":10443.392,"text":"媒體被披露以後呢,剛才王玉敏委員你也是這樣子,然後觀光旅館業你也是這樣子。"},{"start":10445.046,"end":10456.394,"text":"媒體披露以後你就說好旅館開發我暫時這個不下放了然後王玉敏質詢了關鍵產業以後你就說好30公頃以上的我暫時也不不下放了我覺得部長上一次我問你你也都是這種態度你們就如果在立法院沒有開會如果名義上沒有反彈"},{"start":10469.804,"end":10496.834,"text":"゚∀゚。"},{"start":10496.954,"end":10514.237,"text":" bicy 大家看起來最不應該放水的最不應該放鬆的地方你老是先放寬放鬆了然後再說回去被人家罵了再說回去這一點讓你的專業能力認真打折扣"},{"start":10515.895,"end":10541.616,"text":"謝謝委員的指教齁其實這個在這個今年年初的時候環保環境部的時候就已經要委託給15個地方在做這個事情那他們其實也通過所以年初所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的喔你剛才在回答其他立委的時候你說的是因為你們立法院要求現在你又不是了你現在又說是因為你們自己早就要評估了要下放了"},{"start":10542.7,"end":10562.388,"text":"那時候是委託給這個15個地方在所以我問你是你本來就在準備要下放給地方了就旅館業而言不是因為立法院要求的嗎當時有一部分是跟這個立法院有要求這個事情的細則要更明確化"},{"start":10563.345,"end":10578.021,"text":"部長你剛才這次都亂講其實年初的時候你們施行了什麼東西你們施行了叫地方試著這個去交給地方就觀光旅館業的開發環評讓下放給地方去審理是吧是吧反應怎麼樣我們請我們司長來回答不用我幫你回答"},{"start":10586.525,"end":10599.774,"text":"事實上呢你們說要健全完平審查制度提升政府治理的效能結果你們把中央的這個項目你們在今年年初就試著試辦交給地方政府去然後就只有審了兩個案子全台灣二十幾個這個縣市你們只審了兩個案子然後就說欸審起來效果不錯啊執行狀況尚無不妥啊所以我們應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府去可是"},{"start":10617.246,"end":10630.381,"text":"這是事實嗎?這個是事實嗎?你們在8月21邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評事情細則的座談會。就是這一些要下放給地方,地方的反應是什麼?部長你知道嗎?不知道?我唸給你聽。"},{"start":10635.899,"end":10663.164,"text":"第一個新北市政府環保局說分工表原意指系考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工除了考量環境敏感區域外也考量到開發規模的大小來定分工本次分工表的修正就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區的娛樂設施的開發旅館觀光業的開發文教設施的開發全數下放改為地方全責他地方新北市環保局建議"},{"start":10664.324,"end":10684.589,"text":"仍應以對環境衝擊的大小為考量來劃定分工。新北市政府不同意。苗栗縣環保局也講,考量到地方人力不足,堂屬中央目的事業主管機關合法許可的案件是否應一併調整回中央審查。"},{"start":10685.729,"end":10705.524,"text":"然後地方環保局人力缺乏如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力財力不足的困擾現未補助經費或人力協助卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔所以軍部預修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求"},{"start":10706.445,"end":10733.273,"text":"就將案件放下這個地方。他們不同意。宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議依開發規模調整降低地方政府行政負荷。新竹縣地方環保局也認為你們升格為環境部地方業務隨之增加你們的升格增人多了人多了錢可是把這些業務下放給地方"},{"start":10734.013,"end":10761.831,"text":"你還要求他為了能夠有效管理環評案件清查老舊環評並包含例行的環評判定應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求進行環評審查及監督等業務地方政府人力已經明顯不足請軍部再行考量上述原因重新調整權責分工並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力以提升環評相關作業"},{"start":10763.352,"end":10779.265,"text":"還包括臺南市環保局他們也講實務上太陽光電開發案顯少有30公頃以上且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序全管機關利益層面甚廣地方主管機關難以把關建議仍維持現行規定所以"},{"start":10785.049,"end":10787.87,"text":"你們從年初自己的試行計畫到假建立法院臨時提案之名要把光電產業、觀光產業、旅館產業下放給地方政府而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法修正的方向而你們8月底人家看完會跟你這樣講"},{"start":10810.717,"end":10832.088,"text":"一意孤行10月份就預告了這個草案要推卸責任推卸工作的時候效率很高這樣我想部長你應該不知道這件事了所以報告委員所以我知道這個情況全面了解了之後我其實已經把三個所以你的業務單位是七上滿下喔"},{"start":10835.285,"end":10845.952,"text":"地方的政府的意見沒有給你知道然後你就看一看說可行因為他說我兩個事辦的案件沒有困難可行然後你就聽了然後你就公告預告了是這樣子嗎可是你知道嗎真正的問題不只是這樣子真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環境虛行細則以後大開後門人家在質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套為了財團開發在解套"},{"start":10865.653,"end":10880.713,"text":"懷品權限全部下給地方審查不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定必要的時候收回而已這幾句話不是美麗灣度假村你知道這影響多大嗎"},{"start":10882.267,"end":10906.812,"text":"你現在知道這個他不是單純的環評爭議他徹底的暴露了地方環評制度的系統性的缺陷你們本來如果不是環團站出來不是社會人士有反對你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上在系統性的制度的缺陷上還要再下放給地方政府"},{"start":10908.466,"end":10922.929,"text":"當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到一公頃不用環評他怎麼搞烏龍的你怎麼他怎麼搞的你記得嗎我依稀記得對怎麼搞的就是地方有地方的勢力"},{"start":10923.916,"end":10924.576,"text":"我不是在講這個部長你聽好喔"},{"start":10950.403,"end":10964.998,"text":"開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主。舉臺東縣政府這個例子可以證明臺東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為違法亂計不依法行政。"},{"start":10966.039,"end":10983.415,"text":"而且是這樣子護航業者然後直到大家民意反對2007年中央欸從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正然後台東縣政府才說好吧那我教求他們做環評結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指"},{"start":10986.818,"end":11013.193,"text":"程序黑箱拒絕公民參與環評委員都只有環評環工土木背景沒有海洋生態沒有文化人類學沒有相關社會人文領域的這個專家所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定義而離譜的是臺東縣政府沒有反省"},{"start":11014.774,"end":11022.906,"text":"現在台東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質,反而是要重啟環評。所以看了這,我們才知道說"},{"start":11028.029,"end":11044.421,"text":"這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查。環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區、開發面積大。你不但沒有收回中央來把關。你反而還要再繼續下放。這敢一看。"},{"start":11047.336,"end":11071.951,"text":"報告委員這個事情我在發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程然後如果這個過程失利不周跟委員致歉你不要跟我致歉這不是我個人的事也報告委員目前我已經全部都收回來了然後我們未來呢環評總體檢的時候在明年統一再做一個不是啦如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到或者是不是你然後你下面的人這樣子騎上門下你知道這一些"},{"start":11074.98,"end":11092.703,"text":"你要打算放過環境標準的同時,台東縣政府現在正在完成了美麗灣的委外招標喔。他花了6.29億去把一個環境不可能通過的案子買回到台東縣政府手上。"},{"start":11093.72,"end":11118.169,"text":"然後呢他現在又OT出去他用文教設施為名去OT文教設施你有沒有下放了沒有有啦怎麼會沒有沒有吧委員這個全部都說回來了我已經宣布了文教設施跟住宿預管會不會有爭議那三個東西我已經在今天有宣布全部都說回來了還會不會有爭議啊"},{"start":11121.161,"end":11130.547,"text":"就是說台東縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之時還要這樣子搞下去然後還要惹到爭議再去訴訟"},{"start":11133.188,"end":11154.37,"text":"所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格大多數都很弱"},{"start":11155.071,"end":11184.133,"text":"而大多數的觀光產業很弱的地方觀光產業財團的勢力都很大地方政府都很願意配合好東部沒有東部沒有這次是美麗灣不是東部嗎花蓮台東宜蘭都沒有委託你是事辦計畫沒有委託啦你們以後下放就全部都放出去了我現在跟你講不是只有觀光旅館業太陽光店的環評審查權也下放給地方沒有也都收回來了"},{"start":11190.988,"end":11213.695,"text":"所以啊當初你們是太天真還是要餵虎作倉從2020年到現在各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長民代甚至議長所會的案件而雲林兩位議長他們拿錢所會的理由是什麼"},{"start":11216.53,"end":11216.85,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":11234.332,"end":11248.121,"text":"而且已經起訴這麼多事實上被業者進行勒索這麼多你們如果不是在這裡立委質詢如果不是社會上反彈你們已經公告還要繼續全部下放給地方政府"},{"start":11250.514,"end":11264.923,"text":"兩、檢查中長形態遭容表示,綠能產業申請流程繁瑣,各地方政府審查標準不一,導致省和公務機關財量權過大,勾結地方勢力及民意代表甚至向廠商索賄。"},{"start":11266.82,"end":11273.627,"text":"啊這種東西大家都知道膝蓋想都知道你怎麼還會下放繼續下放而且還把大規模的繼續下放把本來中央把關的大面積的開發案繼續下放呢那你怎麼讓我看到過"},{"start":11285.518,"end":11296.833,"text":"您不要說現在你收回來了啦你當初怎麼會這樣做決策部長你也說說看怎麼會這樣做是太天真還是為虎作倉是笨還是壞"},{"start":11299.721,"end":11319.49,"text":"報告員,當時的決策我相信有一點時空背景,那這個事情我必須說有一段時序的,那我並沒有參與的太多,那也跟各個委員致歉,但是目前我也跟委員保證我會全面收回來,有專項處理。你沒有參與的太多?"},{"start":11321.581,"end":11340.033,"text":"這是什麼意思?你只要投資一個100公頃的太陽光電廠案廠投資金額要多少錢嗎?100公頃?報告委員因為過去的光電廠並沒有在特別做環評這次我們才把他納進來的不是啦 這個我們知道啦但我們要求納入環評的中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積欸"},{"start":11340.894,"end":11352.997,"text":"我們管的是那個山坡地15公斤。對啊!大面積的啊!15公斤很大耶!那你在這種狀況裡面你這種東西暗場一開發投資要幾十億耶!然後你把他的生死大權交到前科雷雷的地方政府手上然後現在被罵了你又收回去我就問你說當初你怎麼會思考到要把他交給地方政府為什麼?"},{"start":11372.25,"end":11393.6,"text":"蛤?你講不出來喔?這個有一點前因後果的這個過程啦你把環境的權限下放給地方會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的這一些額外的成本難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策讓正派的業者卻步而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎?而我們總統2030年再生能源發電比要到30%你覺得"},{"start":11401.664,"end":11420.93,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11421.226,"end":11448.077,"text":"你以為這樣比較快卻是欲速則不達你說要健全環境審查制度提升政府效能然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達所以在這裡我們最後要問你就是說你口口聲聲說要強化地方跟地方中央跟地方政府分工而你說你要下放了以後你中央的監督機制沒有看到你出了問題了你介入了機制安全線沒有看到"},{"start":11448.897,"end":11473.666,"text":"地方環評的量能配套你們沒有評估也沒有給資源然後呢各地方政府現在就環評制度的不一致啊他們審查連這個審查程序都不一致連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢"},{"start":11475.2,"end":11503.738,"text":"對不對那像美麗灣現在開發單位買回去了變成是台中縣政府然後他又要做環評審查你們要如何避免利益衝突所以這個環境部升格不是為了讓你們甩鍋啦而是要讓你更積極去守護台灣的環境然後當年就是因為地方政府這樣這麼重大的缺失以美麗灣為例真的是違法亂紀耶地方政府"},{"start":11505.517,"end":11518.089,"text":"這個天高皇帝緣啊法律是法律如無啊才會衍生了後續十幾年的爭議你們不但沒有加強把關反而要全面放寬管制"},{"start":11519.309,"end":11539.428,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11540.119,"end":11556.734,"text":"參與你參與不多然後讓他們在在每個領域在每個每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎部長你要承諾一下報告委員這個當時這個有前因後果吼那也前因是啥後果是什麼你就前因後果四個字就搪塞了前因是啥後果是什麼"},{"start":11561.109,"end":11576.977,"text":"你在這裡就跟立委說這有前因後果,前什麼因後什麼果啊,講出來啊。 有一個時間序列,那我在這個5個月當中對這個參與比較少,也跟委員做一個致歉。那未來像類似的情形絕對不會再發生,這邊跟委員保證。"},{"start":11577.717,"end":11602.692,"text":"你不能只是講碳費啦只是講這個碳交易啦這個是最重要環境部最核心的業務在這裡不是只有碳費委員這個您不用懷疑我對環境的這個堅持那當然這個事件處理的不周也跟委員致歉那我未來保證一定會嚴格的管理"},{"start":11602.972,"end":11626.894,"text":"好,我就跟你再分享最後一句話環境部的核心業務就在這裡也在廢棄物管理然後也當然還有碳廢所以你不能偏私啦不要浪費時間,你要花的時間要一樣多謝謝委員指教,謝謝好,謝謝林淑芬委員的發言謝謝部長下一位我們請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":11634.558,"end":11636.962,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,再請部長。"},{"start":11640.369,"end":11665.257,"text":"黃委員好部長好部長就剛剛林委員講的因為我們最近也看到這個不論是彰化或雲林鄉長然後代表會主席都因為這個光電的弊案所以我剛剛非常贊同林委員講的確實一些環評應該是中央這邊要來主導而不是交給地方如果地方的權限太大其實這種"},{"start":11666.317,"end":11687.965,"text":" bicyclone我是覺得說還是會層出不窮所以剛剛林委員講的我覺得這一點真的我也非常贊同而且我在前陣子又看到一個報導可能就是那個光電這個可能一些外商在做光電他可能還要額外去附一些地方的這個"},{"start":11689.125,"end":11703.631,"text":"公關費用所以讓他們覺得說要在臺灣投資這個他們玩不下去所以我覺得說部長真的這件事要非常的鄭重來正視這個議題那部長是不是你再回應一下好謝謝委員那剛剛"},{"start":11705.111,"end":11732.194,"text":"謝謝林委員還有委員的這個指教那我以後會絕對會妥善的來處理那我再次重申就是說旅館業、文教業還有這種所謂的太陽光店未來的處理還是收回中央那未來呢我們希望花一年的時間因為我目前在3、4月的時候環境部已經委託15個地方來幫助這個旅館業的這個環評審核那目前只有兩個案例我希望到明年年底我們配合環評總體檢"},{"start":11733.815,"end":11735.556,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":11735.556,"end":11759.836,"text":"當然地方我覺得地方他們已經有一些環評能力是不錯但是的確這個委員說到的一個問題我也看到了所以我們未來會從體檢之後明年完整希望年底的時候再來看一次要做怎麼樣的分工因為如果沒有地方的這種監督其實都靠中央的人力一方面要這個環評一方面要監督這個人力是沒有辦法做得到那麼精準的我希望中央跟地方要一起合作"},{"start":11761.337,"end":11783.115,"text":"接下來我想請教部長就是我們在那個環境部12號就是預告修正水污費的這個收費辦法那有新增加安淡然後新洗收費的項目那我想請教就是說其實目前這個安淡是河川中重度污染核斷主要的因素這個污染項目"},{"start":11783.996,"end":11806.333,"text":"那我想請教的就是其實我們也看到台灣的很多河川都是受到污染的我相信部長你這陣子你也時常跑地方嘛那你看到地方有很多河川你看了你也會覺得說我們到國外去看到河川是很乾淨的可是台灣的河川確實是這個"},{"start":11809.701,"end":11810.762,"text":" bicyclist"},{"start":11829.702,"end":11854.428,"text":"那電渡廠他可能直接把水直接灌到地下水區那後來在2013年就有這個檢察官帶隊然後去搜然後確定那也罰也開罰了那罰了1億多那其實我覺得在最近在今年還是有抓到就是有業者他也是非法排放那甚至他的孽是超標超標到這個400多倍"},{"start":11856.849,"end":11878.362,"text":"那類似這樣子我是想要請教部長因為目前經濟部也好他們也在鼓勵這些電鍍業者應該是要往這個章濱這個淪為區有一個電鍍區就是往這邊走希望能夠就是遷到那邊去那我們也看到一個狀況就是說這個工業區這個污水管理"},{"start":11884.725,"end":11911.079,"text":"這個工業區的污水管理我們發現就是說這個環境污染的這個裁罰總額是這個工業區是被裁罰的大戶就像這個經濟部的這個管理的桃園、觀音、大園還有中壢的這個工業區那這個觀音的部分16年這個被罰了160多次那總額是將近這個台幣1億那我想請教就是說各個工業區的這個水"},{"start":11912.139,"end":11913.179,"text":"環境部你應該要怎麼去督導這件事?"},{"start":11941.46,"end":11966.741,"text":"包委員 這個我請我們司長來回答謝謝謝謝委員關心這件事情我想工業區基本上它有一個經濟部有一個延期管理局它負責這個區內工業區設有專用污水下水道系統的一個相關的一個監督管理跟計畫的一個補助有些工業區基本上它的一個區內事業的廢污水特性基本上就相對複雜"},{"start":11967.662,"end":11996.813,"text":"所以它的污水處理的一個操作的量能基本上有不足的現象所以呢這個沿管局他目前的一個做法就是會針對這一個需要改善的呢他有一些透過ROT的方式在引入外界的一個資源公司協力跟這個技術的能力來改善他的污水處理設備但是我們覺得說除了污水處理設備的一個提升之外更大的問題是區內事業的一個管理也就是說區內事業要符合納管限值做排放"},{"start":11997.153,"end":12014.35,"text":"然後透過一個專用的污水下水道系統送到污水處理場來處理所以區內事業的一個納管常常是會有超排的現象那超排之後呢而造成這個污水處理場的負荷突變變化變異太大然後呢這個污水處理的操作常常會有盪掉的問題"},{"start":12015.151,"end":12039.475,"text":"所以我們基本上有建議他我們也開過一個協調會開過一個研商會就是要怎麼樣來整合這個現有的一個技術跟一個特別是這個感測的技術怎麼樣在沿途做納管的一個監控然後呢透過污水下水道系統的一個收集然後來做一些相關的一些溯源的追蹤來讓這個區內事業呢要符合納管限制那你們現在已經開始做了嗎"},{"start":12039.735,"end":12039.895,"text":" »:是,好。"},{"start":12068.993,"end":12093.552,"text":"我希望就是說應該是要從我們自己可以管的這個工業區應該是經濟部工業區然後跟你們應該要互相合作因為他放流出去了然後超標罰錢罰錢就沒事了嘛所以我覺得這一件我後面我還會繼續追啦另外我想請教就是說彰化還是有很多都是喝地下水"},{"start":12094.212,"end":12123.149,"text":" bicyn 很多都還喝地下水而且我們一直在申請就是說希望這個無自來水地區的民眾能夠這個中央政府政府能夠持續能夠自來水的接管可是很可惜就是說這個速度還是蠻慢的那我想請教就是說我剛剛有講章化這個電鍍電鍍業者就是在這幾年是希望他們能夠簽到這個電鍍專區那還是有一些他是沒辦法簽就是說他"},{"start":12124.149,"end":12125.49,"text":"中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":12148.49,"end":12149.811,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":12175.433,"end":12178.035,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":12196.247,"end":12197.228,"text":"二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務"},{"start":12214.898,"end":12216.119,"text":"中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":12236.954,"end":12237.074,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":12261.485,"end":12286.989,"text":"瓜布會的去溝通,不論是經濟部、內政部我覺得這個一定要跨部會的溝通而且這個髒化地下水真的大家都會擔心就是說這個水兩三個禮拜這個濾芯就要換一次那民眾長期使用這樣的水確實會身體健康會受到很大的影響"},{"start":12288.289,"end":12313.924,"text":"謝謝委員的意見其實我還沒有上任之前有一些環工的風險的專家就跟我講過這個問題我也很樂意找時間我再全面的瞭解然後可能要整合很多的部會包含農水署等等還有經濟部等等所以我們會來做這個事情再委員再給我一點點時間謝謝好謝謝那繼續加油謝謝好謝謝黃星光委員的發言下一位我們請洪森漢委員發言"},{"start":12326.122,"end":12346.955,"text":"請彭部長。好,有請彭部長。黃委員好。部長早,因為我時間有限。這幾天其實我們大家都有看到環境部針對其實在今年的在亞塞拜蘭的一些進行的狀況。有一些我們的記者會,或者是一些發生的這個狀況。"},{"start":12348.772,"end":12377.339,"text":"那部長但是我也看到你在COP第一天的記者會上面其實有提到其實有許多參與的專家朋友們其實都有收到一封來自ULFCCC的這個主辦方的信件那這個信件上面表示參與此會議的目的要很清楚是為了減碳而不是為了表率或者是會議後做某些商業利益的宣稱部長你覺得這個ULFCCC主辦方為什麼要做這樣子的提醒"},{"start":12378.281,"end":12401.545,"text":"報告委員因為其實的確有一些單位或團體他藉由這個參加會議然後他說是一個代表團的身份或是花錢購買了一些記者會或是桌邊會議然後就宣稱他是聯合國的相關的然後這個呢透過新聞的傳送就變成他是這個領域或是他是最棒的那的確會造成整個社會的困擾"},{"start":12402.493,"end":12429.275,"text":"因為我們現在很關心一個事情第一個是其實我想這兩個月其實很多單位都有收到一封檢舉信那這封檢舉信其實就是在這個VERA就是國際探權的這個核發跟認證機構上面的這個VCS的平台上面這封檢舉信那這封檢舉信裡面當然裡面的內容提到了這個有來自"},{"start":12430.576,"end":12458.055,"text":"臺灣的機構在參與COP28的這個會議的時候宣稱了自己這個通過了這個VERA相關的探權上面的批准那這個檢舉信的內容是指說這樣子的宣稱恐怕跟實質的狀況是不吻合的是不符合的是有落差的部長您有沒有收到這封檢舉信?報告委員有的這個我們氣候署署長正在處理這個事情"},{"start":12459.096,"end":12476.025,"text":"其實我們看到這東西其實我跟部長說其實你應該知道很多這段時間關心這個國際的組織關心氣候變遷的國際的組織包括探權的相關的組織都有收到這封信那我們其實看了以後其實很多國際的氣候組織都來紛紛問我們"},{"start":12478.786,"end":12496.597,"text":"這一封檢舉信上面的內容是否屬實?到底他說的是對的還不對?他的指控到底是對的還不對?因為裡面內容還包括我們來自台灣的機構是不是有違反其他國家在探權認定上面相關的法規或方法學上面的規範。"},{"start":12498.479,"end":12517.391,"text":"那不然我對於這個信上面的內容是不是真的當然我沒有進行調查我無法斷定可是我認為環境部應該要積極的查明這件事情這件事情為什麼重要我們不能讓其他的國家不管是官方單位、民間單位、專業單位"},{"start":12519.445,"end":12527.672,"text":"adequation to the issue of carbon rights related to Taiwan, the question of creating trust."},{"start":12527.672,"end":12542.765,"text":"這個我想部長應該很清楚其實一個合法的碳權的申請尤其經過國際組織它是一個相當繁瑣的申請為什麼要走過這麼多相關的步驟的原因就是要去確認這個credit的這個字有些人發現信用某個部分也是大家怎麼對它產生信任"},{"start":12543.706,"end":12571.983,"text":"有這個信任你才有辦法進行所謂的經濟市場上面的流通或者是交易等等等的這個事情重點是在這個他要有一定可信的正當性包括合法性的部分這很重要所以部長我們能不能我們能夠在多短時間裡面把剛剛的這個訊息給查明到底指控是否屬實如果有誤會那也澄清有誤會但如果說的是真的那我們環境部的態度是什麼"},{"start":12573.199,"end":12590.575,"text":"報告委員我們請氣候署署長跟委員報告因為這一個案件他是跟國際民間單位就是VERA來申請註冊所以他相關的提到的這個檢舉性的內容確實我們的了解是VERA他們自己本身也有請這個案件的申請單位要去釐清"},{"start":12591.496,"end":12604.289,"text":"當然他會涉及到我們國內的就是包括會金管單位因為他可能也有事上是上規的公司的這個相關的事情所以我們目前已經確認就是金管會已經有掌握這個案子的這個進展那當然剛剛委員提醒是說他在這個某個國家做的這個專案是不是有符合"},{"start":12613.439,"end":12625.17,"text":"人家的這些相關的法規這個部分我們也可以再找這個我們國內的相關但畢竟他是我們不是沒有辦法去對他的這個申請去做做釐清啦而做做確認"},{"start":12626.055,"end":12648.158,"text":" »: 但我們可以來再進一步的去掌握。 »: 我覺得當然它這個其實是一個像VERA就是國際上面大概最重要的幾個國際探訣人機構的檢舉。但是我自己認為我們自己的環境部對於像這樣子的事情到底我們的具體掌握,因為看到這個這次檢舉性的時間出來的時間其實是9月。其實距今已經兩個月了。"},{"start":12649.739,"end":12672.335,"text":"到底我們掌握﹖我覺得剛才聽起來這樣的話其實掌握的內容是不太足夠的喔到底有沒有違反其他國家相關的法律我為什麼當然這件事情本身的釐清他會去做某些部分他該做的事情可是我們的環境部我認為要扮演的角色是要讓我們自己的企業很清楚規矩是什麼"},{"start":12674.466,"end":12688.888,"text":"規範是什麼不能夠違反的是什麼因為當只要今天有一家企業在一個國際的平台上面有違反的時候很可能會讓其他的國際組織對同樣都是來自於台灣的計畫來自於台灣的project"},{"start":12689.248,"end":12691.389,"text":" bicynnello、Pierre-Pierre"},{"start":12709.697,"end":12734.143,"text":"當然現在大家都在談減碳很多企業、很多民眾、很多社會都在談減碳我覺得這是好事可是我們也這裡看到其實有很多利用資訊不對稱的這個狀況其實會讓很多人受騙之前我其實已經開記者會其實提過了包括讓不了解探權或者是近鄰的民眾可能付了高昂的補習的費用或者是拿了其實明明不被官方認證的這樣子的一個證書"},{"start":12736.404,"end":12764.815,"text":"這都是在利用資訊不對等的狀況甚至有些我們看到它還造成在股市股價上面的波動那這對一些資訊不對稱的投資人來說也是不公平的事情我認為環境部應該要很清楚告訴大家我要再講一次現在哪裡要符合什麼規矩要符合什麼規範不然這樣資訊不對等的狀況如果繼續延燒的話或更廣泛的出現這狀況的話很有可能會引起社會對於以後都覺得在講減碳的"},{"start":12766.385,"end":12791.578,"text":"是不是都是投機行為?我們當然不希望大家現在非常非常期待的氣候行動都被認知為可能都是投機行為。我覺得這對於未來環境部在減碳淨零的工作上也會出現很大的阻礙。所以部長我覺得有幾個部分我們怎麼避免票率包括應該依據國際市場的高標準來進行審核跟運作資訊應該透明不可以過度的做不實的宣傳要符合申請國的規範要求"},{"start":12792.839,"end":12818.23,"text":"不可以濫用頭銜來誤導民眾這現在很多人在幹這事情喔媒體如果不導如果有誤導不實的話媒體如果不確定的話應該請教環境部給予明確的資訊至少給予清楚的透明化的資訊我覺得環境部可以做的事情部長我們應該更積極這應該沒有問題吧好包委員您說的這個部分我們有在做但是或許我們做的還不夠我會持續的加強而且要更加大力道的對外宣示"},{"start":12818.37,"end":12844.133,"text":" bicy,我看到你最近跟外交部有合作關於一些氣候外交的部分也談到一些可能探權的合作我們要談到跨國探權前如果沒有辦法把這個規範清清楚楚的讓外界知道的話其實也會有人疑慮太快的進到所謂的國際探權會不會有更多這樣的投機行為或者是利用更大的跨國之間的資訊不對稱不對稱在做炒作的部分如果我們有更在這方面有更大的雄心我覺得"},{"start":12845.194,"end":12845.474,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":12857.967,"end":12858.548,"text":"謝謝紅身漢委員接下來請黃建斌委員發言"},{"start":12910.156,"end":12910.176,"text":"黃偉洋議員"},{"start":12919.48,"end":12944.974,"text":"部長,剛剛聽到有其他委員在提到關於台東縣的問題。我想每一個縣市、每一個地方發展它都有因為法令上的關係或是管理上的一些疏失造成一些問題。不過我相信台東縣政府這幾年其實也很用心的想要把這些問題來解決。像部長你上次來台東應該也有感受到台東整個環境的改變,包括整個環保概念其實也有提升。"},{"start":12946.755,"end":12964.064,"text":"我們都希望能夠在產業發展跟永續上能夠取得平衡而不是零和遊戲那我想自己的家自己最在乎那這邊也請部長放心關於台東的這些相關問題我們都來努力也希望一起跟部裡面來合作齁"},{"start":12965.245,"end":12982.825,"text":"那像上次也提到說部長上次也口頭允諾說要協助臺東縣政府在這個粉花爐外圍的這個改造跟粉刷的部分先謝謝部長那臺東縣政府之後也會趕快把計畫收到部裡面來也請部這邊來協助讓整個環境能夠更好好謝謝那"},{"start":12985.02,"end":12989.323,"text":"這是我們台東的糧倉,就是實際上關山跟鹿野這一塊,那也是全台灣最大的有機米的生產基地。"},{"start":13005.074,"end":13025.895,"text":"那你也部長知道齁,這個五股豐收之後就會帶動很多其他的產業,像畜牧業啊、汽滴汽、雞汽啊、汽油汽,這些東西、化石料,畜牧業會帶來另外一個比較讓人家頭痛的就是排泄物的問題。那這邊就是要跟部長來討論就是說,臺灣縣政府這幾年為了想要徹底的來改善這些問題,"},{"start":13027.276,"end":13045.906,"text":"因為在產業發展的過程裡面產生這些閒物的設施跟這些氣味是讓整個關山鎮地區的民眾非常困擾的那臺灣憲民會這次找了關山鎮公所還有一些業者一起來討論未來要送出一個叫做畜牧糞尿資源化處理的計畫"},{"start":13051.529,"end":13075.996,"text":"希望在這個事情上能夠徹底的將幾十年來的問題來改善。那我們也很謝謝我們昨天我們的王市長也有我邀請了王市長還有我們環保局來共同來商討。因為這個計畫當時送了兩次都被推薦。那也謝謝我們市裡面這邊來指導讓我們有第三次的計畫。我們希望透過這次計畫真的能夠提到能夠達到未來整個"},{"start":13076.736,"end":13078.518,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":13091.781,"end":13110.46,"text":"規範來協助我們地方政府來做這件事情,否定可不可以。 報告委員這個其實我非常關心關山的那我也到了花蓮玉里的璞石閣我們未來至少要打造成跟璞石閣一樣但是每一個地方我們每一個地方的特色特別是他的財務規劃那目前呢他已經送進來在我們環境部在審核當中我們一定會全力支持"},{"start":13111.421,"end":13128.133,"text":"市長,這個案子不但可以解決二充的問題,我們也可以有效地徹底排廢的這些廢棄物,不管是做未來綠能的發展,或者是利用菌的發酵讓它作為營養液來做循環的經濟,我想這個是我們要共同努力的目標。"},{"start":13128.934,"end":13129.494,"text":"謝謝黃建斌委員接下來請圖全級委員發言"},{"start":13164.945,"end":13166.628,"text":"好謝謝主席請我們彭部長 請彭部長"},{"start":13170.237,"end":13195.002,"text":"土友也好。好,彭部長那今天也很多委員針對環評法施行細則的部分有在做討論那環境部在上個月通過這個環評法的施行細則那當然其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置環評權下放的地方那我也看到很多立委表達很多反對的意見那針對這部分部長你現在到底有什麼想法?"},{"start":13195.602,"end":13216.961,"text":"報告委員那個原來是預告啦齁那當然我剛才跟那個幾位委員報告就是說當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多但是我也承諾了全部都收回來包含了這個旅館文教設施還有光電還是我們中央來處理但是因為地方喔像桃園環保局他的其實也有他的環評的量能我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審啦"},{"start":13217.321,"end":13239.825,"text":"所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給像桃園就是有委託的那我們也希望他的量能他的專業度能夠提升起來那我們這個環保是有一系列的計畫在推動這個事但是無論如何這個要社會的共識才是最重要的我們要等一段時間明年的時候再來看所以現在只是預告所以目前沒有正式的實施那我也宣誓全部都收回來了"},{"start":13240.365,"end":13264.859,"text":"那所以在這之前部長跟我們下面的同仁沒有充分溝通針對環評法施行棄責的部分沒有做充分溝通嗎?報告委員可能是我剛上任可能對很多這件事情不是太過了解所以也造成一些困擾這個在這邊致歉所以因為剛剛也聽到很多立委在講我們也很擔心環境部是不是針對這一部分垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題啊?"},{"start":13266.803,"end":13286.203,"text":" bicyc,我會改進。未來我保證是絕對不會有問題的。好。針對預算的部分,我們去年8月22號從環保署升格變成環境部。當然我們規模跟預算一定比之前都還大。當然我們也針對剛剛"},{"start":13287.504,"end":13316.745,"text":"我們瞭解一下針對環評的部分因為那時候你們在編預算的時候我們想說這環評的部分有很多那時候你們當下是說交友給地方去做那交友給地方去做我們看交友給地方去做為什麼明年114年還成長了12.8%大概400多萬那不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的這個當時是他們希望補助給地方例如說讓地方的人力還有他的量能可以增加而且要跟我們說"},{"start":13317.165,"end":13317.205,"text":"請市長回應。"},{"start":13331.353,"end":13352.83,"text":"報告委員其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方但是對於地方的人員的培訓或者人力的補償我們是有研議其他的方式來補助甚至是未來可能用約聘的人力來補助那我們的預算會增加比較多其實是因為省的案子比較多相關的本來的"},{"start":13353.87,"end":13370.536,"text":"應該是說我們的環評的錢本來就少所以它增加一點錢它的比率就好像比較高那實際上我們是希望未來可以導入AI甚至是我們現在正在委辦要辦那個環評總極限這些都需要費用我們公務預算主要是用在這相關方面的"},{"start":13370.925,"end":13383.896,"text":"所以當下我們也覺得很奇怪就是我們當下編列這個預算的時候是把這個環評權很多五大項的分工讓地方針對環評權的部分讓地方去處理嘛"},{"start":13386.698,"end":13409.917,"text":"沒有沒有要跟委員講我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的部分納進去這預算完全是中央在運用的包括我們要審案子要給委員的初期費審查費甚至我們要去現勘還有相關的我們自己有一些行政事務的要處理那甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評還有我們環評總體檢都需要用到這些經費"},{"start":13416.03,"end":13440.238,"text":"所以因為那時候我們就覺得這個部分預算所以可能要檢討一下你那時候環評的部分環評權下方地方正常來講你的案件應該是減少的所以我們認為說你很多很多環評的部分下方地方案件應該是減少結果反而預算是增加所以我們針對這部分那時候對這個預算的編列有一些質疑那到時候我希望說還是"},{"start":13441.898,"end":13455.697,"text":" bicyclone 跟未來我們審查數量的部分可能讓我們來了解一下為什麼下放地方之後正常應該是數量減少結果反而預算增加這一部分希望提供一些數據讓我們來了解一下"},{"start":13457.472,"end":13485.649,"text":"好委員謝謝謝謝委員的指正我們會來處理好那還有我也想了解當初為什麼這個環評法施行細則據我們來看了一下我不知道他當初的動機是什麼因為我們看了一下你看這個2015年他修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本我們看起來這跟9年前好像是幾乎是一模一樣"},{"start":13486.857,"end":13507.824,"text":"部長你有沒有注意到你看這個版本幾乎是一模一樣那不是當初又說要中央地方權責要分工分清結果我們2015的修正版本跟你現在2024的修正版本幾乎一模一樣不知道針對這部分是參考過去的版本還是有參考我們學者的意見"},{"start":13510.423,"end":13529.99,"text":"嗯,這邊跟委員報告2015年修正是因為我們以前沒有做這個副表沒有分工的副表所以那時候常常就會爭議說欸這個到底權限是中央還是地方所以我們2015年修法的時候是訂定這個副表把他權限分清楚那後來在修法的時候是把"},{"start":13532.53,"end":13551.721,"text":"與管、文教設施這個敏感區域把它修法變成是中央來審查因為主要就是因為美麗灣的事件所以後來把它修法變成中央來審查那我們後來為什麼會在想說地方是不是能辦是因為其實經過這麼多年以來的話地方"},{"start":13553.101,"end":13577.102,"text":" bicyclone 跟我們講說欸旅館能不能給他們來審這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致那相關考量點也一樣那我們是想說一個案子地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看所以我們當初才會考量說是不是要下放給地方所以是有提這個預告的版本主要就是要收集各界的意見"},{"start":13578.601,"end":13606.163,"text":"那現在還在預告收集意見的其中所以這個施行細則並不是說舊版本新版本施行細則它其實就是在講主要是在講權責分工的部分對所以這部分我希望還是要注意一下當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方權貧的權責能夠分工清楚而且希望能夠盡量來利益迴避可是沒有想到2024我們又感覺又修回這樣子那對於我們2015"},{"start":13607.824,"end":13609.325,"text":"二、延期延期延期延期"},{"start":13625.473,"end":13655.016,"text":"我剛剛也聽很多委員在講其實針對我們現在新的預告修正版本這一部分你看我們之前環保署長詹順貴有講他把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方他說這是再生能源的大災難而且我們也知道地檢署一直也都偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、代表地方等等很多很多的光電弊案"},{"start":13655.556,"end":13674.87,"text":"那結果環境部現在居然不但沒有去改善而且居然還預告修正要把我們光電環評權下放地方那你不是不但沒有改善你還助長地方的首長讓他們更名正言順去要這個回饋金是不是讓這個弊案發生的頻率會更高"},{"start":13676.031,"end":13696.26,"text":"包括原來是沒有太陽光墊的,然後我們後來這次是15公頃以上,然後那15公頃以上的都要經過山坡地要環屏,那目前因為這個因為有剛好這個細則的關係,所以就把這個15到30讓地方來,超過30是中央,那不過我也跟委員報告,因為我已經宣布了,所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。"},{"start":13696.84,"end":13714.731,"text":"好,所以其實把這光電納入環評其實真的也是大眾的期待啦只是說把這環評權下放地方大家還是怕這些弊案重申求員兼裁判很擔心這樣子的問題所以居然部長已經說不會下放我希望"},{"start":13715.351,"end":13715.711,"text":" bicy,謝謝部長。"},{"start":13742.984,"end":13754.637,"text":"好,謝謝圖全級委員。我們中午不休息直達這個質詢結束。那這邊,環境部這邊可以用餐了。好,接下來請林俊憲委員發言。好,謝謝主席。表示邀請我們環境部彭部長。請彭部長。"},{"start":13765.918,"end":13789.077,"text":"議員好,部長好。部長,前幾天颱風嘛,下大雨啊。那我們台南啊,南區就是台南跟高雄邊界的二人溪啊,這曾經是全世界最堵的河川之一啊。因為下大雨的沖刷啊,你看一下哦,現在就是把一些過去的廢棄物啊,現在都顯露出來了。"},{"start":13790.168,"end":13809.88,"text":"那顯露出來以後啊,很多人就擔心啊,因為水啊,這樣會不會再把一些有毒的東西給溶屎出來。我們看到齁,那這個其實歷史共業啊,這個非常淒慘啊。那過去是我們台灣環保運動,環保的一個大災難啊。以前大概也沒有什麼這樣的觀念啊。"},{"start":13810.981,"end":13812.302,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":13830.205,"end":13832.406,"text":"二、邀請檢查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":13850.834,"end":13867.587,"text":"六十五公里就六萬五千公尺啦那只有八百公尺是乾淨的其他都是非常恐怖的污染狀況那我們要來清理這樣的歷史工業一定需要中央的一個支持啦我不知道部長你有沒有這樣的一個看法"},{"start":13868.477,"end":13893.214,"text":"報告委員這個我禮拜一的時候也去台南看了那也跟委員報告委員看到那個圖片我也看到了真的是沒想到台灣還有這個地方啦那目前其實跟委員報告我們上禮拜因為這個其實也是一個歷史工業那要討論主管單位其實過去幾年討論了很久那也跟委員報告上禮拜行政院也召集我們各部會來討論這個事情那也跟委員報告我們"},{"start":13894.054,"end":13915.524,"text":"環境部願意專案的方式來負擔整個整合中央的窗口那也希望台南市目前希望我們已經告知台南市政府了希望他們趕快提一個計畫出來然後我們環境部來協助整個經費的爭取然後來合作來清除這件事情因為我當然要感謝部長的支持其實二輪區的整治最早是從"},{"start":13917.024,"end":13941.915,"text":"賴清德總統擔任立法委員的時候啦因為我是承接他的立委選區啦那賴清德總統在擔任立委他每一年都會邀請那時候叫環保署啦的署長去走一趟二人溪啦我剛準備要邀請你去坐一下二人溪坐船在上面的感覺你昨天是不是在岸邊看嘛岸邊看我找你坐的時候就在看嘛你有知道他的胸部啦"},{"start":13943.596,"end":13959.505,"text":"現在經過一些初步的場域我現在給你看這個表大概ABC第四個地方第一是高雄這一邊ABC是在我們台南這一邊大概估計還有14000噸的廢棄物等待清理這樣的經費絕對非常龐大初步算起來有各種的計算方式台南市的一個專案大概要7億多"},{"start":13972.657,"end":13974.078,"text":"部長你有看過這個表嗎?"},{"start":13974.078,"end":13996.414,"text":"有,有看過。這是我們台南市的廢棄物清理費用的估算。這筆經費一定要請中央來支持,一定要請部長用專案全力,這個坦白講也是洗刷台灣的一個恥辱。就灣里那個地方停止燒廢物精已經很多年了。"},{"start":13997.267,"end":14025.894,"text":"但這種對環境的破壞啊幾十年你都難以恢復啊那現在我們過去20年來其實它都還是一直維持在中度汙染雖然有減輕啊雖然有減輕所以我們可以看得到衛生系裡面也有魚啦但禁止釣啦那個不能吃啦那也沒人敢吃啦那也有水鳥也有回來啦但是喔基本上它在我們的環境的汙染指數上還是中度的汙染"},{"start":14027.099,"end":14054.928,"text":"那這部部長那後續這樣的計畫請部長你的看法呢?好,報告委員目前我們是等我們已經告知市府尤其環保局他們來提相關的計畫那未來呢我們會由我們這邊來審核然後也會從中央行政院那邊來爭取經費所以我們希望盡快來推動這個事情那未來要推動的時候呢也希望委員來支持那我們也會跟這個地方的環保單位環團一起來合作"},{"start":14055.128,"end":14072.083,"text":"所以我也跟卓榮泰院長報告啦。我說這個部分一定要做啦。說到現在的話,其實過去我們都是每一年啦,那治標稍微弄一下啦。我大概統計一下中央歷年來對207整治的一個經費補助喔,平均他每一年大概只有800萬。"},{"start":14073.024,"end":14075.626,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":14092.116,"end":14102.621,"text":"所以這個部分我希望彭部長第一個金面上你也答應來支持第二個盡速來進行好不好沒問題沒問題謝謝委員好感謝部長謝謝主席謝謝林俊憲委員接下來請陳穎委員發言好謝謝主席麻煩請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":14124.526,"end":14138.928,"text":"陳委員好部長好你現在肚子很餓嗎還可以血糖還可以所以我們今天應該不會發生因為你太餓了然後就結束了本席的質詢吧不會不會那希望你能夠撐下去"},{"start":14140.89,"end":14150.237,"text":"最近從媒體的報導環境部成立了第29次全球氣候變遷締約國大會的戰情中心這是過去從來沒有過的創舉因此我要在這邊請教這個戰情中心它是一個任務編組嗎?"},{"start":14162.266,"end":14189.614,"text":"報告委員因為全世界UFCCC有197個地約方啦那全世界大概200多個國家那我大概我有上確GPT還有各自查過全世界有三個環境部長是負責氣候變遷的沒辦法去一個是半地崗一個是Costal War另外一個就是台灣那我自己因為我以前都參與很多那這次我沒有辦法參與但是我們覺得我們還是要積極的去跟國際接軌知道他們在做什麼"},{"start":14190.074,"end":14198.649,"text":"所以我們就設了這個暫停中心現在其實是每天中午12點一直工作到晚上我們隨時收集資訊所以他是一個這兩個禮拜的當中的任務編組"},{"start":14199.636,"end":14222.814,"text":"好,那所以大概你們有編列多少預算嗎?沒有預算。好,那我大概就了解一下齁,那這個戰情中心的組織大概有多少人?然後這個大概多少人?現在我平常去看的話大概有15個人左右。15個齁,那戰情室的指揮官是誰?應該不是趙少康啦齁?不是不是不是。"},{"start":14225.456,"end":14238.335,"text":"是我們蔡署長好蔡署長好好那我們前線派出去參加會議的這個組織或團體有多少個那他們有什麼樣的配備好那然後這些可以即時回傳訊息這樣子"},{"start":14240.489,"end":14264.602,"text":"報告委員可以但是因為我們臺灣因為這次這個亞賽拜仁他的這個國家立場上比較特別一點點所以我們也保持我們的低調我們以務實的獲取臺灣最大的權利為基礎所以人的部分還有層級的部分也請委員給我一點空間但是我們的確派了很多的智庫給你空間是要保密的意思還是怎麼樣因為聽了好久還聽不到數字"},{"start":14265.382,"end":14274.532,"text":"嗯,我們都保持暢通的聯絡,但是其實有些我們不要對外曝光。好,就不方便講,就方便在這裡回答就是了。對,對,對。好,我也不會逼你啦,講就好了,因為"},{"start":14275.754,"end":14279.938,"text":"根據戰情中心成立的意旨,這次會議的主題有什麼樣的訊息跟情資?需要環境部派這些人熬夜輪值,而且必要時要下達部長的指令。"},{"start":14302.368,"end":14305.252,"text":"大概工作到晚上8、9點左右就結束,中午開始工作。感覺大家都很有那個熱忱。"},{"start":14318.991,"end":14338.065,"text":"有有有那根據本辦的瞭解齁這次主席呢是亞塞拜然的這個生態與自然資源部的部長那除了部長層級之外呢有其他國家的領導人會出席嗎有非常多但是沒有像往年那麼的多那我聽說是拜登也會去但是還沒有確認"},{"start":14339.326,"end":14359,"text":"好,那我們台灣並不是締約國只是說在這個會議討論出來的決議會有影響我國政策跟權益的議題嗎?報告委員目前最關注的就是巴黎氣候協定的第6條6.4那它這個最主要是全球的碳市場的建立"},{"start":14359.6,"end":14371.817,"text":"那目前我們最關注這一條因為這個會跟台灣未來的包括我們的出口我們的探定價會有很顯著的關係所以目前這個是這次可能會有一個很重大的通過我們是密切關注這一條"},{"start":14373.052,"end":14397.635,"text":"所以部長因為這樣聽下來你真的非常的投入很有那個熱情然後既然成立了這個戰情中心那我覺得這個會不會是有可能來增加我們未來成為締約國的機會再更進一步這樣子我個人是期待我也希望有一朝一日我用環境部長的身份能夠參加UFCCC但是我也知道國際的現實但是我很務實低調的來進行"},{"start":14399.514,"end":14423.399,"text":"好那在這次的這個戰情中心的成立記者會部長有提到就是說擔心美國總統當選人可能會產生全球淨零轉型的亂流那因為我不太清楚你這樣講的原因是什麼啦因為畢竟就是說我們這樣子去評論他國的決定特別是美國這樣子泱泱大國"},{"start":14425.859,"end":14447.734,"text":"就是這樣會不會太過於偏頗我是有一點擔心而且我們也不是締約國我們雖然不是締約國但是我們一直在很努力在推動在做從事這個保護環境然後朝著這個節能減碳的這個目標一直在做努力"},{"start":14450.515,"end":14476.927,"text":"只是說因為現在當然就是說當時我們現在就是已經當選的川普未來的總統就是說讓美國退出締約國就是說他講了這樣的話那你怎麼斷定說他們退出了他就不會去致力於在這個善盡這個地球公民的責任然後反而成為你口中的亂流"},{"start":14478.167,"end":14499.961,"text":"因為部長你現在應該已經沒有在播報氣象了沒有沒有沒有所以這個到底是怎麼樣因為我有點擔心這樣的言論會有不良的影響報告委員因為當時是因為這個那幾天那個全世界的所有的評論都是非常的負面"},{"start":14500.822,"end":14517.504,"text":"那也跟委員報告其實經過這幾次我們也成立一個小組專門探討川普總統的未來的這個政策那我也必須說其實川普他跟8年前的那時候退出的這個巴黎氣候協定的這個方法"},{"start":14517.824,"end":14518.284,"text":" bicyclone"},{"start":14542.947,"end":14566.733,"text":"我其實有點聽不太懂這個部長的意思所以這樣亂流他是一個正向的字眼還是亂流之後會雨過天晴然後會影響未來應該會雨過天晴而且會慢慢的回到一個正軌那我個人是不擔心因為我們目前其實所以你講的亂流不是指"},{"start":14567.981,"end":14587.592,"text":"不是指川普?可能因為國際的氣候談判目前的確是有一點有一點這個大家擔心這個未來會怎麼樣不確定所以不確定性當然就用這個亂流形容是非常的貼切但是我也必須說因為川普總統他過去這個8年都參與很多的選舉他對於治國有他一定的看法"},{"start":14587.972,"end":14613.189,"text":"那根據我們現在我們評估起來其實他相信在淨零部份他一定有他的看法我們也很樂意 我想是這樣因為我其實你一直在繼續談論這個我有一點很擔心啦我希望因為我很擔心後面如果有什麼差錯我覺得那個有關於這樣子的一個討論我想我們還是先跳過了"},{"start":14615.15,"end":14637.399,"text":"所以在這一次這個我剛剛提出的問題你所謂的亂流應該本席聽起來它就是一個過程一個過程對但結果會是好的對好的好那大家聽到了那事實上呢本席在第28次的這個會議的時候就有提醒從這個地球憲章"},{"start":14638.759,"end":14662.792,"text":"的這個內容來看呢善用原住民對自然資源的智慧一直是各國規劃保護地球的一個很重要的政策我們不能忘記就是說在這個COVID-19會議的重要議題特別是在這個邀請原住民代表的參與也是一項會議的這個重點那部長去參加"},{"start":14664.353,"end":14680.405,"text":"嗯過去參加了這麼多次是不是也應該要有這個思考就是說來邀請我們原住民的代表去參加相關的活動然後藉此來吸收各國當時運用原住民智慧的一個具體做法然後帶回來做參考"},{"start":14682.081,"end":14700.229,"text":"報告委員這個其實過去我參加過11次每次原住民都有相對應的活動我都非常感動啦那台灣參與的的確比較少那我們也希望明年COP30在巴西的時候我想我們參與少應該一來資訊少二來也是沒有受到邀請對對我們會來促成這件事情"},{"start":14700.829,"end":14716.602,"text":"對,所以希望部長上任之後會有新的氣象。好,謝謝。那本席還要在這裡特別呼籲環境部就是有關於這個永續發展在這次會議是各國優先推動的這個具體目標。"},{"start":14718.603,"end":14738.85,"text":"介注原住民跟自然生態環境融合的智慧那更是就是說規範在地球憲章裡面那環境部未來在這個碳費基金的運用上呢也應該就是不能偏離這個世界潮流一定要記住原住民重要的角色好不好"},{"start":14740.491,"end":14763.683,"text":"所以你們這一次的戰情中心相信對於這個各國因應氣候變遷的這個作為應該也收集了不少資訊了對好那我要在這裡特別要求就是針對各國運用原住民智慧智慧的作為那也要請你們一併收集就是說把整理好的這些資料提供給本辦參考同時呢"},{"start":14764.743,"end":14793.064,"text":"也要參採這個運用轉化就是未來政策的擬定也要一併加以規劃那更重要的就是說就是說明年你們派出去支持的這個就是說那個民間團體的部分也應該要包含原住民的團體或代表部長是不是可以認同本席的要求非要認同也謝謝委員的指教我們會來促成這些事情好謝謝委員生日快樂"},{"start":14796.881,"end":14802.783,"text":"陳佩玉委員生日快樂。謝謝主席。有請環境部部長。"},{"start":14821.896,"end":14836.914,"text":"陳委員好好部長現在已經是中午了吼今天早上您在接受記者詢問的時候關於環評的事情您已經表態了你說旅館、光電、文教全由中央來審查對好這個說法你可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變"},{"start":14839.888,"end":14865.718,"text":"報告委員因為其實我上任不到6個月那環評我參與的可能時間沒那麼多那很多的事情其實在上半年的時候我相信都有討論的很多了所以其實我大概沒有參與過多可能沒有完全的了解那當然這個法令出來預告預告的時候出來的時候的確引發社會很大的這個討論所以我自己了解之後也跟同仁討論之後"},{"start":14866.858,"end":14887.795,"text":"我其實一步一步來因為畢竟是旅館已經有先做了然後還有包含文教設施還有光電它是不一樣我很嚴格的去檢視所以後來我完全了解之後今天就在這個透過這個委員會宣布這三個全面收回來謝謝部長你的調整那我來問一下部長這張照片你覺得是旅館還是文教設施這個應該是旅館"},{"start":14892.001,"end":14916.926,"text":"對嘛,我們一般人都覺得是旅館現場在吃便當大家也可以看一下這應該是旅館可是這就是當年的美麗丸它現在被台東縣政府認定為文教設施所以我很開心聽到部長早上您已經先對媒體說明了文教設施會收回來由中央作為審慎的評估我覺得這非常重要但是我還是要跟部長討論後續我知道你們說明年底才會有一些公告"},{"start":14917.626,"end":14918.106,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":14918.106,"end":14939.597,"text":"您們應該也會跟地方政府討論但是我只是要指出在這樣子案例的現場我們看到的是地方政府的態度跟他們的專業度不足的問題以剛剛我們回到前一張部長你說那是旅館我也認為他是旅館可是台東縣政府說他是文教設施有沒有看到標題叫做公文教用途然後呢他租期42年"},{"start":14941.218,"end":14969.936,"text":"那以新台幣先以新台幣6.29億元用台中縣政府的錢先買回來再租出去42年然後他說啊我租出去的這42年未來可以收進來6億所以可以到達一個財政的平衡部長你不用擔心我們要問這個案子我只是要讓你知道說你早上的宣誓其實是對的因為地方政府確實在做環評的時候不知道他是什麼樣的心態也不知道他是什麼樣的態度就做成了這樣的決議所以我很怕沒另外案件"},{"start":14970.536,"end":14972.619,"text":"hanoling the Minister, please insist."},{"start":14972.619,"end":14975.742,"text":"As you said, you think it's a hotel, but you know what?"},{"start":14975.742,"end":14984.412,"text":"文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的。旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評,可是文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的。旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評,可是"},{"start":14985.213,"end":15005.06,"text":"゚≥≥"},{"start":15005.16,"end":15021.815,"text":"所以我請部長在後續你們在公布相關法規之前非常多地方的聲音要聽見民間團體的聲音要聽見剛陳穎委員也說我們到世界上去開會的時候原住民的聲音要被聽見華人跟台東是有最多原住民的地方而他們的居住經驗他們的生活嚮往並沒有被縣市政府聽見這個時候環境部應該要有所角色對嗎"},{"start":15027.28,"end":15033.003,"text":"對沒錯這個我們會把它考慮進來好那謝謝部長來我們來看下一個案例這是花蓮的193縣道當年在進行環評的時候呢最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議那根據過去的案例"},{"start":15042.688,"end":15060.624,"text":"通常在閉門會議的時候行政團體、行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去只留下媒體做記錄這個可能是大家普遍可以接受的現象但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了成為真正的閉門會議"},{"start":15062.526,"end":15088.059,"text":"所以後來呢花蓮193就過了就產生了我們後續看到很多現象所以部長我只是要告訴你你雖然早上把旅館跟文教設施收進來了但是會有我剛剛說的那些問題但是像花蓮193限到這個事情我們當年所有的論述就是他跟海洋之間的關係他跟花蓮人生活人當地之間的關係都沒有被納入考量這時候如果中央有積極的配套跟角色"},{"start":15088.939,"end":15116.147,"text":"與您的專業度帶進地方我認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切而且更符合大家對於生活的嚮往那所以這邊我想要積極的提出雖然你們說你們在明年年底才會做出相關預告但是我認為有沒有機會你們在相關人員的訓練或者是委員的領選民眾的參與機制明確的審查程序還有不同項目的指引我認為都要積極的做出相應的標準我剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例部長你怎麼看"},{"start":15118.151,"end":15143.845,"text":"好委員這個您的指教這個部分我們會來都可以做得到我們會來推動這個事情好也就是說中央當然有中央的權責然後也有中央的專業但是回到了地方上如果地方的縣市政府他沒有你們這樣的指引他可能用我剛剛說的非常低的標準然後非常草率的程序甚至是不公開不透明這個狀態我們就會可能一再一再發生在地方上的這種環境評估之後發生的"},{"start":15146.847,"end":15147.588,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":15147.588,"end":15149.349,"text":"因為你們如果不做出相關指引給地方政府參考,他們依然會繼續亂搞。"},{"start":15167.5,"end":15168.26,"text":"謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":15206.775,"end":15208.683,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們環境部彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":15212.851,"end":15237.472,"text":"黃委員好。部長好。部長COVID-19 29屆的這個氣候部高峰會議現在正在開啟。那當然我們國內沒有辦法受邀參加,但是我們也有所謂的總統的國家氣候變遷對策委員會。你也是委員之一嘛。我是執行秘書。執行秘書。好。今天有個社論標題下得很重。"},{"start":15239.067,"end":15256.067,"text":"總統府氣候大敗敗再開下去有什麼意義?不知道部長有沒有看到這個社論有看到其中他講到兩個部分就是說開了兩次會議第一次的結論根本也不能算是結論第二次比較重要第二次講是說什麼第二次講說"},{"start":15257.248,"end":15279.404,"text":"要兩個一個是明年一月的時候要提出我國的2032年的減碳目標另外第二個是政府要帶頭減碳我先姑且不論說政府帶頭減碳是過去十幾二十年來大家已經共同共識嘛節能減碳這大家耳熟能詳了那第一個2032年的減碳目標我上一次也在這個委員會請教過你"},{"start":15280.945,"end":15307.633,"text":"第一、2025年你們要減碳10%你承諾你已經親口證實說會跳票做不到第二、2030減碳25%正負1%不知道但2030還沒到馬上又要再提出一個2032這現在是一直往後推就對了報告委員不是的因為我們準備因為這次COVID-19要進到NDC3.0就是說第三份所以等於是要拉到2035那2035總管當中一定有2032"},{"start":15310.974,"end":15312.916,"text":"所以你這一次的這個氣候變遷會議其實主要是因為我們這個COVID-29是不是?"},{"start":15328.281,"end":15354.483,"text":"不是就是說其實大家都知道COVID-19這個時候要訂出到2035其實我們整個都順著國際公約在做所以我們正在準備這個過程當中好那我們拉回來如果說要講COVID-19我們就來討論因為我也注意到說我們環境部有所謂的這個戰情中心是兩個部分大家也都講是說其實內行看門道外行看熱鬧那門道的部分就在於是說在這一次的會議"},{"start":15355.728,"end":15382.503,"text":"到底已開發國家願意拿出多少錢給開發中國家來去做共同減碳的一個目標錢才是重點嘛沒錢沒有辦法做嘛第二是他們提出來的2035年的一個減碳計畫減碳目標到底是不是能夠具體的落實因為減碳路徑大家去看就可以看出來是說玩真的玩假的那還有一個很重要是在國際原子能總署他們在開幕的那一天也強調"},{"start":15384.468,"end":15413.086,"text":"告28的時候有提出核能的運用要2050的時候要提高三倍2020的三倍以上就是說這個目標是不變的為什麼他認為是能源不管是燃氣燃煤都是大宗的排碳能源都是排碳等於減碳的這個很難對抗的敵人也因此希望是用核能或者是說其他的再生能源來取代火力發電所以"},{"start":15413.996,"end":15429.562,"text":"去年COP28的時候就已經有提出2050三倍的核能發電目標不變。那現在我先把它講完啦。您不用著急。川普總統上任。"},{"start":15430.262,"end":15457.408,"text":"大家之前都在談就是說他有沒有可能也退出巴黎協定這是第一個或者是說他有沒有可能他支持石油跟燃氣發電但不要忘記川普總統即便是他選舉期間講說他支持石油跟燃氣的發電以及開採但是他也同樣支持核能他也支持核能而且他也認為說核能應該要重啟對美國很多地方來講所以"},{"start":15458.467,"end":15467.064,"text":"拉回來我的問題其實還是很簡單啊老問題啊我們台灣有什麼本錢跟有什麼條件能夠跟世界趨勢背道而馳"},{"start":15468.456,"end":15485.692,"text":"當世界看到減碳目標定在那邊當世界看到能源的運用燃煤燃氣都是排碳的大宗的時候結果台灣背道而馳的是我們把核電廠關掉然後結果我們現在剛剛此時此刻我查台電的官網超過84%85%火力全開發電"},{"start":15490.865,"end":15500.96,"text":"那您覺得如果說以這樣的一個情況不改變世界都在重新重啓核能世界都在重新用核能甚至說2050要達到三倍的核能發電然後結果我們反而是背道而馳"},{"start":15507.607,"end":15522.716,"text":"來部長。 包委員國際能源總署原子能總署他是提倡核能的我們一般會看IEA國際能源總署就跟我們國際的燃煤聯盟他當然是希望全世界都在燃煤發電最有效我請教COP28沒有核能的決議"},{"start":15523.436,"end":15550.831,"text":"二零五零提高二零三零的三倍沒有沒有這個決議那個是場外他們幾個國家但包括說美國包括說其實主要幾個加入的國家也都有這樣的一個倡議報告委員那個沒有列入COVID-28的主決議那有沒有這樣的倡議有沒有這樣的一個討論有沒有這樣的一個方向某些國家的倡議是某些國家的倡議包括美國包括主要國家是那另外我剛講了嘛"},{"start":15551.391,"end":15577.467,"text":"就是說不只部長我現在不是要跟你爭執我沒有爭執我現在講的是客觀的事實就是說當世界各國即便是日本即便是日本發生了311事件但日本有沒有完全拋棄核能沒有啊日本他現在還是有重啓核能的計畫美國微軟Google他們有沒有在重啓核能有啊"},{"start":15578.922,"end":15605.169,"text":"那我不懂說你現在一直跟我爭執說這個不是決議這個只是倡議這個只是什麼但重點是當全世界大家都往這方向走我現在本期還再次強調我一直我也沒有說我一定要支持哪一個能源不可但現在我們全體人類面對的目標是什麼是2050要建林碳排是你2032年你們自己要提出來的減碳目標是你2030年你們自己講的減碳25%正負1你達不達到"},{"start":15608.396,"end":15624.692,"text":"所以其實大家是幫你想方設法你既然已經講出了一個減碳25%正負1的話那你要怎麼做我們大家在關心我們大家在害怕那其中最大宗的排碳大宗火力每天都全開那你跟我講是說時間到了2030就是減碳25%誰相信"},{"start":15629.577,"end":15644.17,"text":"當川普也都在擁抱核能當美國當COVID-19這一些國家大家都在擁抱他們也不一定都覺得說核能好啊但是核能要幹嘛核能取代不是取代再生能源核能取代是火力發電"},{"start":15645.529,"end":15672.601,"text":"是用核能取代用不排碳的發電方式去取代排碳的能源方式我們持續的推動再生能源的技術當哪一天再生能源技術真的我們人類有辦法把太陽能轉換成電能把太陽能把風力轉換100%電能的時候我們當然可以捨棄其他我們不要的能源發電啊但在這個過程當中過渡過程當中我們要很務實啊不是嗎那你身為環境部"},{"start":15674.343,"end":15686.55,"text":"我現在提出來你不是經濟部啊你不是台電主管啊你是環境部現在國內最大的排碳大宗就是發電站其中之一不是嗎結果我們開了兩次的這個會議國家氣候變遷委員會"},{"start":15691.932,"end":15709.467,"text":"難怪社會講大拜拜啊因為你沒有針對問題解決問題啊一直要求大家去節能減碳啊我想請教哪一個人不知道要隨手關燈隨手關店但如果說我們需要讓一個總統找環境部部長當執行秘書那麼國家級的大拜拜"},{"start":15710.408,"end":15726.571,"text":"結果到時候得出的結論不是我們要怎麼樣解決問題怎麼樣提出問題而是我們只告訴大家是說大家共挺時間一下吧那個結論不是這個樣子的那個深度節能有很深的意義在裡面不是叫大家只有節能而已部長"},{"start":15727.714,"end":15733.358,"text":"你不要一直看著昭偉啦,你好像希望昭偉說時間到了,昭偉怎麼還不站起來,是不是?"},{"start":15733.358,"end":15753.732,"text":"是,我知道,昭偉感謝啊,感謝你多讓我講這幾分鐘,因為我看部長好像眼神一直跟你求救,想說,欸,洪孟凱怎麼講,還不站起來。 不,不,不,我在看著您啦。 部長,我說實在我不喜歡一直重複講這些事情,但是我覺得,如果說我們環境部主管國家的環境的組織單位,"},{"start":15757.267,"end":15784.307,"text":"都沒有辦法說把真正客觀的事實告訴我們的上尉然後一味的讓這種民粹拉著走那我真的覺得就印證了就是說如果說這樣總統府氣候大敗敗到底有什麼用開了兩次會議但是真正的核心問題不解決不面對到底有什麼用謝謝其實內容非常的多啦齁謝謝但是就是每一個內容都沒有針對問題解決問題嘛"},{"start":15787.895,"end":15806.207,"text":"好謝謝接下來請林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在接下來請伍麗華委員發言謝謝主席有請部長請彭部長"},{"start":15810.456,"end":15828.89,"text":"委員好部長好我剛從財政委員會下來那今天財政委員會的專報是來針對就是美國川普當選之後那對我們整個前景的一個衝擊跟影響這很有趣因為川普一當選"},{"start":15830.287,"end":15831.907,"text":"公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算"},{"start":15859.116,"end":15859.796,"text":"關於環境部部長列席報告業務概念"},{"start":15877.694,"end":15878.634,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":15894.601,"end":15913.465,"text":"經管會主委、央行他們都說我們國家的這個綠能經濟的政策減碳的政策是對的方向那既定不會改變也覺得未來不會受到影響我就想請教第一個問題部長您覺得那些歐盟會被退出"},{"start":15914.273,"end":15914.493,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":15937.198,"end":15960.24,"text":"况且其實美國也因為這個減碳淨零全世界的科技的投資氣候科技的投資都在美國所以我們認為他不會放棄的所以有沒有預算的一個支持其實反而是我們必須要關注的一個方向對不對我認為對台灣的利益來看的話我們還是需要跟美國做好一個好朋友所以我們未來的調整策略也會省時度式的來做該有的應對"},{"start":15961.782,"end":15978.995,"text":"好謝謝部長那我就要開始講了為什麼呢因為對於我們來講現在綠色經濟就是險學嘛那我們也希望說可以在我們的山林可以開始去種碳所以呢我們有很多的原住民族人"},{"start":15979.716,"end":15996.729,"text":" bicylaine,他們也不斷的聽說未來碳有價的時代會來臨。我們對於自己的自然碳會也覺得很有信心但是因為大家也不是很懂所以他們常常也面臨到企業來找他們要談合作"},{"start":15997.369,"end":16022.057,"text":"可是現在是一個詐騙的時代嘛所以大家也都會很害怕因此我在8月2號的時候我有開了一個公聽會就是讓我們的這一些企業跟我們的原鄉族人那麼能不能夠有一個原鄉碳會的ESG的公益平台那麼在這個當中其實我很高興因為後續有了一些迴響像是11月25號"},{"start":16025.618,"end":16041.77,"text":"台灣吉寶結算所願意來支持這個原鄉碳匯ESG的平台所以呢他們也找到了桃園復興區一個幾百公頃的地要來跟他們去做一個NOU的簽署儀式就是讓企業然後台灣吉寶結算所"},{"start":16046.173,"end":16047.154,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":16062.026,"end":16064.208,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":16081.445,"end":16082.306,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":16102.239,"end":16115.823,"text":"大家都已經耀耀欲試可是很多的問題需要去確認特別是方法學的部分那在這邊我們也看到在去年的10月有發布一個溫室氣體自願減量的專案管理辦法"},{"start":16118.644,"end":16135.796,"text":"有公開了13類143項多元減量的方法那2025年呢也開始要來去做一個碳費的申請那2026就會來徵收我現在是想要問我們原鄉齁在這個自然碳費的部分"},{"start":16136.596,"end":16156.232,"text":"我們很想要去肯認嘛因為現在只有新植林只有濕地但是我們很關心竹林呢森林呢還有土地的管理方法呢像這一些我們的自然碳會才可能有一席之地嘛所以這個部分我想要了解現在的進度如何"},{"start":16157.203,"end":16179.34,"text":"報告委員這前面兩個方法已經公告了通過了吼那另外一個呢是我們環境部跟原民會跟農業部組成的一個平台是不是請我們署長來跟他報告因為剛開過會好謝謝我們現在已經除了原本的植樹造林之外現在就是有竹林經營跟森林經營但是因為這些內容比較複雜所以環境部會把它做成懶人包嗯"},{"start":16179.48,"end":16195.964,"text":"゚≥≥"},{"start":16196.104,"end":16216.002,"text":"但我們也發現到說當然現在第一波堆的是重工業嘛但是國內外第三方驗證機構現在是不到15家而且這個驗證費用目前上路的這些所謂的重工業其實他們驗證費100萬對他們來講也沒有什麼可是我要說的是未來呢"},{"start":16216.923,"end":16233.967,"text":" »: 未來我們要面對這些所以我們很希望我們有看到你們的專報有講說你們為了要強化自願減量這個減量的機制的規定提高查驗機構的量能來滿足需求然後你們有開設盤查作業查驗人員的訓練班"},{"start":16237.008,"end":16247.759,"text":"好那這個部分查驗機構的成立新增查驗的項目增加人員的培訓好我們來看一下預算我這邊看到我們的溫室氣體管理基金目前114年從公務預算有撥補6.7億進來"},{"start":16253.365,"end":16265.296,"text":"但是我想先請教因為我們知道未來徵收的碳費呢會撥入到溫室氣體管理基金那請教一下部長如果2016年2026年你們預估會收多少進來大概60億左右"},{"start":16269.66,"end":16281.537,"text":"會有60億拿進來好那我看一下喔以這個目前114年撥補進來的6.7億齁放在人力培育的只有4469萬佔7將近8%那部長您覺得這樣夠嗎"},{"start":16287.623,"end":16295.135,"text":"這個當然現在因為我們還有一個是國安院也有一部分的經費啦所以當然現在還是不夠的我希望說未來我們2026年收進來這個溫管基金要做很多很多的事"},{"start":16303.187,"end":16319.129,"text":"我就是想要問部長這個溫管基金的分配還有它的用途誰可以參與決定為什麼我很關心因為我們有參與棄遷法的修法把這個溫室管理辦法變成了棄遷法之後法條有寫得很清楚"},{"start":16320.123,"end":16342.258,"text":"政府與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會之相關權益應與原住民族共享。所以呢我在這裡就是想要問一下部長您可不可以就是就您所知你們有沒有往這個利益共享的部分來去做一個這樣的規劃"},{"start":16344.52,"end":16359.516,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這個部分我們會來推動因為原住民是在氣候變遷裡面扮演一個很重要的角色但是這個怎麼做還有公正轉型這個部分的確是要委員到時候來給我們指教的這個利益共享的部分"},{"start":16360.317,"end":16382.181,"text":"我希望部長您可能要特別的來注意因為在這個部分包括未來這個審議他的機關學者專家代表原住民的代表我們希望說我們部長在推動這些碳會的計畫要重視原住民的權益跟參與希望我們有決策發言權也能夠參與這個很重要的這個邁向碳有價的時代精靈談判的時代好不好"},{"start":16387.022,"end":16400.55,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝委員的指教。我們會來做。好,謝謝主席。那也希望就是給我在一週內能夠就我剛剛所講的來做一個說明。好,謝謝部長。謝謝主席。好,謝謝吳立華委員。接下來請牛許廷委員發言。好,謝謝主席。彭部長有請。請彭部長。"},{"start":16417.738,"end":16419.388,"text":"欸你為何好?我們等一下投影片。"},{"start":16432.499,"end":16458.599,"text":"欸?部長是桃園人嗎?桃園住了很久,中央大學,然後觀音出生。觀音出生嘛,對不對?所以當然今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起喔。來,環科的硝酸外洩案喔,這非常嚴重。相信部長身為觀音人,這看了一定很傷心。觀音在桃園是這個承載喔,全國的工業發展還有各式各樣喔,這個最辛苦的產業,也是高污染,這個桃園的重災區喔。"},{"start":16459.58,"end":16475.522,"text":"那這個硝酸外洩的這個意外喔,這部長有沒有掌握相關的情況?有,其實因為他7點多的時候發生,我們大概8點多一點,不到大概30幾分鐘我們的化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。你們是怎麼知道這件事情?是廠區通報的嗎?"},{"start":16477.685,"end":16496.287,"text":"消防單位消防單位通報我們有一個平台這部長你知不知道如果發生這樣的事情喔這種嚴重的空氣污染嚴重的公害事件喔這我們可以依什麼樣的法規處於什麼樣的法環第一個是空污法喔空污法這種外洩各種的下面都有一個這種處罰的比例大概一小時"},{"start":16497.108,"end":16521.47,"text":"一小時內要通報嘛。對。《公務防治法》33條規定啦。就是說,如果業者沒有基於這個即時通報協助救災的義務的話,你當然就可以裁罰10萬塊到1000萬元以上的這個罰款。那這個案子他有沒有通報?有嗎?他有通報嗎?有通報。有通報?有通報。你們掌握是有通報?他有通報我們嗎?他通報,通務的部分他有通報。OK。那罰不罰得到?今天的問題就是這個。"},{"start":16524.273,"end":16540.721,"text":"您要不要回答一下,請我們大氣司司長。 可以,沒關係。 主管部長跟委員報告,那個空的罰款要看他整個過程,包括是不是有意無意等等那個,包括設備故障等等,那個要再去判定。 再去判定對不對,所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到?"},{"start":16541.568,"end":16561.108,"text":"這個我現在不能講,還是要看整個環節。食物上的狀況對不對?部長我今天跟你討論這件事情原因就在這個地方。就是說我們現行空污防治法的規範基本上都是規範這個業者的程序作為。也就是說我們有沒有怎麼積極處理啊、積極配合啊、有沒有及早預防。但是我們整部法令裡面從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果。"},{"start":16562.24,"end":16580.43,"text":"所以很有可能這個案子如果目前部裡面掌握的訊息是他其實是有通報的很有可能到最後他並沒有違反空氣污染防治法33條規定以至於橘色煙霧明明是硝酸捏然後造成大家的恐慌也好或者是實際上身體損害的時候很有可能到最後他可以全身而退有沒有可能發生這樣的事部長這個請"},{"start":16585.287,"end":16601.872,"text":"我們還是要看最後的後果。還是要看最後的後果對不對?實務上在執行的時候當然就是桃園市環保局嘛。他當然第一時間重罰。對不對?這是不是就發生這種事情的標準作業流程?對。都是環保局這是第一線啦。第一線對不對?第一線掌握我一定是第一時間重罰。然後重罰之後會發生什麼事部長你知道嗎?"},{"start":16603.093,"end":16626.814,"text":"其實他仔細的細節還是要看案件對不對所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願就是說我不服這個罰單我其實有配合阿我沒有違反相關法令可以撤銷有沒有可能有可能對不對跟我們報告一下那個我們剛剛他通報的時間超過一個小時超過一個小時對不對一定會罰一定會罰嘛好可是再來我就要問如果他超過一個小時比如說一個小時五分鐘那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度"},{"start":16628.456,"end":16636.305,"text":"゚∀゚。"},{"start":16637.219,"end":16659.259,"text":"不是嘛對不對今天拿這個題目來開頭其實本期是要點出空風防治法一個很大的一個問題啦就這個之前是倉促了大火嘛這美孚的案子雖然消防法通過了可是一樣啊當初美孚的工廠造成了公害然後持續了好幾個禮拜簡直是市民的災難當初桃園市環保局也是第一時間開罰500萬最高我給他罰下去後來發生什麼事"},{"start":16662.081,"end":16679.519,"text":"閱者講說我按照空戶防治法我沒有什麼相關的義務啊我前期有配合我也是不想要這樣啊我很擔心像這樣的事情他也講我有配合我有積極也許他沒有達到這個法律一個小時的標準但他都講啊你按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰空戶防治法本席認為你看之前美孚大火"},{"start":16680.881,"end":16700.276,"text":"這500萬的被撤銷最後只能費金法罰6000這個跟人民的期待有巨大的落差這是本期要提的事其實在部長上任之前之前薛部長的時候我就有講空污防治法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範還是要從嚴處理啊對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果只要造成我不管你什麼原因其實你就要科與相關責任啊"},{"start":16701.337,"end":16727.946,"text":"有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合啊今天這個關於的這個廠商搞不好就是因為反正發生了我只要配合要件我還可以逃脫處罰所以他在前期的管理他就跟你賭嘛他很有可能就疏於應付我覺得這是一個法規上面的巨大的問題過去我們在討論空氣污染防治法的時候重點包含之前前朝的修正重點都放在移動污染源的管控可是固定污染源難道不是這個空污的大宗嗎"},{"start":16728.84,"end":16731.775,"text":"我是認為有一個全面檢討的必要部長"},{"start":16733.94,"end":16760.116,"text":"包括委員這個給我一點時間再重新了解一下因為委員提到的也非常有道理那目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理不過委員你說的這個意見非常好給我們一點時間我們再來評估一下是不是公務法有一些缺陷那部長你要多少時間因為薛部長之前也講要給他一點時間然後當然他任期快到了所以我也不怪他對不對但是你現在新上任嘛你除了碳的東西很專業之外其他這個是這個環境部的本"},{"start":16762.777,"end":16787.394,"text":"本來的守備範圍嘛。好,委員給我們一個月的時間好不好。我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。第一個就是空氣污染防治法要不要再重新針對固定污染源的部分啊。做一些修正。比如說倉儲的大火。比如說這樣子一個公安的意外。造成的公害事件。有沒有一個專門的法則來做處理。當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範是一個成本的增加。但是"},{"start":16787.654,"end":16812.176,"text":"゚✧✧"},{"start":16812.176,"end":16812.236,"text":"請環境部長"},{"start":16840.969,"end":16862.848,"text":"業務委員好我請教一下根據環境部的資料有無矮無實比有排量的你們有一份資料裡面我特意去看了一下前10名大概有7名都是電力供應業電力供應業大概佔了總排量大概佔了36.45%這個資料應該是正確的這是你們提供的前10名是電力業"},{"start":16868.012,"end":16873.594,"text":"請問一下電力供應業要繳碳費嗎?他要扣掉他給別人用的他自身的或是輸配電的他自己要付"},{"start":16885.359,"end":16904.672,"text":"他要付嗎?因為他也有產生二氧化碳,所以要付碳費。但是他的比例不高,大概7、8%左右。7、8%為什麼?怎麼算?這個我們有一套的算法。例如說台電他自己產生,台電大概1億噸的排碳量左右。可是他自己大概只有不到1000萬噸左右。那剩下的是誰付?"},{"start":16907.074,"end":16916.289,"text":"剩下是我們使用者使用者來付那為什麼台電他造成二氧化碳但是卻是使用者來付我就是使用者用了這個電用了這個碳排啊"},{"start":16917.527,"end":16922.371,"text":"當然啦那你如果一般工廠生產東西所製造出來的生產出來的碳費是由消費者來買單嗎?跟委員報告就是當時在討論氣候變遷因應法的時候那有關碳費的徵收那要對於電力的使用呢我們現在在當時立法院在討論的時候就是由這個使用的這個電力譬如說這些工廠"},{"start":16937.925,"end":16956.698,"text":"因為他會用到電所以那個碳費就由這個工廠端來負擔而不是又由這個電力發電端不然的話如果兩邊都算的話就會重複計算但是一般的工一般的工廠如果他生產東西有排行二氧化碳的話是工廠負這個碳費還是終端消費者負這個碳費是工廠工廠嗎所以只有台電特別嗎台電是由消費者來負這個碳費嗎台電是負一部分嗎"},{"start":16963.601,"end":16971.006,"text":"只有那個會被收到碳費的大工廠才會要負擔碳費。一般的中好企業、服務業、民生都不會收到碳費。"},{"start":16994.461,"end":17008.708,"text":"呃,他們其實會很努力啦,那目前我們估應該是5億以下吧吼。五億以下是不是?對對對。五億以下。好,沒關係。那個,那因為明年就非核家園啦,核電退出嘛。哦,那二氧化碳會增加嗎?"},{"start":17010.088,"end":17037.285,"text":"發電過程排放二氧化碳會增加嗎?因為目前我所掌握的數據我們的綠能的比例持續在往上走所以排蛋係數是逐步的往下走當中所以明年的非核價格以後因為綠能的增加所以台電要負擔碳費會減少你的意思是這樣嗎?台電的負擔的電費對你的意思是這樣嗎?基本上不會減太多不會減太多那到底是會減還是會增加還是不會減太多是減還是增?"},{"start":17040.105,"end":17066.252,"text":"應該還是會減少的。會減少?確定?你確定齁?好那我想問一下齁台電如果未來齁因為和能源配比的變化齁產生碳費不管是增加減少請問一下他是會轉嫁給消費者嗎?不會因為這個比例很低啦。比例很低?因為他不到5億啊。所以他不會因為這個理由要課增碳費之後就漲電價?不會齁?也不會造成也不會造成所謂的虧損嗎?不會?"},{"start":17068.732,"end":17088.153,"text":"不會,那虧損是銀運的虧損?確定喔?銀運虧損當然是因為發電成本增加它就會造成銀運的虧損嘛我們現在講的是成本的部分嘛會不會因為碳費這個成本增加了所以它把電費轉嫁提高然後轉嫁給消費者有沒有可能造成這個狀況?不會因為它佔它的這個比例非常的低啦"},{"start":17088.353,"end":17091.155,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":17106.324,"end":17112.328,"text":"二、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案二、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":17126.015,"end":17128.818,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":17148.938,"end":17166.532,"text":"所以你們在預...那個維持700到900其實就是二氧化碳就是會排嘛所以你們在預估所謂的會不會增加碳費或者是碳排你不能夠只算它純粹它發電你應該要把它整個過程通話算進去嘛不是說綠能就完全沒有碳排嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":17166.932,"end":17191.46,"text":"很低,相對的很低很多。 這個也都要算進去啦,因為剛剛感覺好像部長這一塊沒有精算過。 沒有沒有,那個其實委員那個整個去碳燃清有他的這個算法的邏輯,像他最後目前我們看他們計畫到2028年只有5M的發電量。 我只是舉這個例子,就是說其實綠能它不是完全沒有碳排的,因為大家一般會以為說只要是綠能就沒有碳排,但其實不是。"},{"start":17192.06,"end":17193.841,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":17208.251,"end":17208.331,"text":"檢測過程中檢測"},{"start":17224.736,"end":17226.156,"text":"要三個月的時間欸?"},{"start":17226.156,"end":17253.902,"text":"不會不會,報告委員那個其實齁現在的這個人力有150個人左右15家公司我們有推算過每一個人的量能是多少因為每一個查驗大概一個人大概兩三天左右所以目前是夠但是唯一一個情況是說如果社會恐慌我每一個都要去做探盤查探驗證那就會不夠了所以基本上現在要做的就是例如說金管會要求我們要求還有供應鏈要求做就可以了其他中小企業不需要做好好謝謝"},{"start":17259.001,"end":17273.693,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員。接下來請劉建國委員。謝謝主席。有請部長。請彭部長。"},{"start":17277.004,"end":17292.841,"text":"欸 劉委員好部長好 部長辛苦齁部長應該很清楚嘛本身也是有氣象的這個專業嘛 對不對那之前露秋 臺灣露秋以後就是這麼多颱風現在有可能下午會再花布另外一個颱風嘛齁"},{"start":17294.222,"end":17322.331,"text":"那相對於陰線我的母線還有其他全國臺灣的這些農業大線影響甚巨這幾天我一直也跟農業部農糧署還有農改廠一直去看到很多這些作物的這些損害而且非常嚴重蠻多還叫做延遲性的傷害剛發生的時候剛受到剛臺灣剛進來的時候還看不出他的受損狀況不過經過一二十天之後就慢慢的看到這個延遲性的傷害一直展現出來"},{"start":17323.371,"end":17331.503,"text":"我是要請教部長又是氣象的專家會不會預估這一次的台灣會造成台灣又有什麼樣的一個損害"},{"start":17334.505,"end":17354.497,"text":"我已經沒有在做這個專業我專心做環境部的業務啦我沒有在算啦我沒有特別在看啦我回到民間我一定會給你這個資料的不過他底下剛剛一直笑的意思有點奇怪是不太相信部長的專業還是還是怎樣你們可以說給我聽我不會跟部長講"},{"start":17357.322,"end":17379.793,"text":"我要表達是這樣因為這個對農業的損害真的是甚巨部長可以再看一下11月份這個報導是這樣會有是台共這可能是非常的一個嚴重的狀況當然要部長馬上答我可能會造成整個農業的損害到什麼程度當然是有困難不過"},{"start":17380.954,"end":17396.694,"text":"不過我為什麼會這麼問是希望都透過你的專業也適時的因為我們經常對災害的部分是有跨部會來做這樣的一個整合跟支持然後也不只這樣今年有這11月4號的四台共舞"},{"start":17398.757,"end":17420.12,"text":"二零二一年台灣遇到的這個百年的大旱再往前推二零一六有霸王級的這個寒流齁這在在的這種極端氣候都造成環境還有農業的巨大的一個損害所以我才會希望可以透過位於存口方式來請教部長也希望部長對這種全球氣候異常的狀態"},{"start":17421.081,"end":17450.271,"text":"已經很難用過去的經驗詞去做判斷的狀況。那我們正在環境部的角度我們可以做到什麼程度來做一些預防。好,報告委員這個就是調試啦氣候變態調試的能力的建構所以環境部其實是調試的主管機關那目前各個縣市有在提調試的計畫那我們在審核當中也就是說這種我們會知道越來越嚴重可能以後會有癌症每個人那個生老病死但是要提早做準備所以我們環境部是扮演這個角色"},{"start":17453.572,"end":17466.704,"text":"條4部長可以看以下資料這個是我們溫室氣體管理基金及收支管理保管及運用辦法就不再贅述最主要有部長講的第6點這個氣候變遷條4支協調研擬及推動事項還有相關的內容就不再贅述"},{"start":17472.569,"end":17480.02,"text":"那我要表達再請教部長就是說我們預估在明年開始2026啦有60億的這個碳匯來開徵嘛那我記得好像我看那個報導應該是10月17號的樣子"},{"start":17487.811,"end":17508.934,"text":"我們本部長特別強調攤貨的目標是要以減碳為最有成效的來作為一個目標並幫助因應氣候變遷造成的弱勢例如可能會受到海水倒灌影響的嘉義或整個西南邊沿海地區你認為這些地區需要一些調適的方案攤貨應該可以提供幫助沒有錯吧"},{"start":17509.394,"end":17510.194,"text":"三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":17525.203,"end":17530.766,"text":"2016是39億107是44億來到114年已經156億甚至於去年是129億這從39億一直到最高的這幾年的156億你可想而知這是倍數倍數倍數的一直在成長那台灣的農民怎麼有辦法承受這一種"},{"start":17546.235,"end":17546.495,"text":" ﹝廣告中﹞"},{"start":17574.122,"end":17601.952,"text":"台灣的農業對台灣的農民或多或少有一些預註。報告委員基本上碳費要直接補助給農業是有點困難的那因為這個碳費有13個項目所以比較不用是農業但是呢其實那個我們現在是會督導每一個部會要做調試像農業部也要做他的調試所以農業部的調試呢他自己也會編他的一個經費但是如果說有一個調試是更明確更有效益的當然或許有一些部分就可以來進行補助"},{"start":17603.769,"end":17632.708,"text":"要有更明確嘛。要更明確。因為報告委員那個有時候喔。但是部長你的明確已經顯示在你10月17號的記者會已經講了嘛。對不對。好水道灌影響的嘉義或整個西南邊的沿海地區嘛。對。這個海水道灌一定影響的農業叫做漁業嘛。基本上就是漁業會苦辣。一定也是有影響嘛。還去道館。那所有苦辣的對不對。不管是粉牛仔啦。不管是蛤蜊啦。不管什麼的對不對。也一定會影響嘛。這個就符合你講的話。"},{"start":17633.729,"end":17655.606,"text":"゚≡≡≡"},{"start":17655.826,"end":17683.875,"text":"對阿你就是補助海邊的提黃嘛可以拉高嘛對不對那海邊的提黃基本上主責大概是在經濟部嘛對不對在這個河川分屬嘛應該是這麼說嘛那你已經可以想到這樣了那當然對農業部分你是不是可以多加琢磨一些應該可以吧我是因你講的話來想出環境部可以在碳水的部分可以更周延的更周全的為台灣的農業跟農民做更多的挹注嘛"},{"start":17684.395,"end":17710.852,"text":"應該是這樣,而且特別還想到最後一句話叫做並幫助因應氣候變遷造成的弱勢嘛,那絕對是農民,那絕對是騰的農業,應該是這樣。我說部長沒有辦法馬上答覆我啦,那是不是可以研擬一下,就像你剛才比喻的對針對這種細胃癌的提防,我們或多或少可以在探討的部分來做一些益助嘛,那相關的沿海的農業也應該可以比照這樣的比例來做支持嘛,好不好。"},{"start":17711.412,"end":17730.145,"text":"我們研究一下好不好好啦一個月了好不好好我們謝謝我們試看看謝謝這不能試啦我們研究一下研究之後就做啦好不好你就請到提防啦不然我覺得你對經濟部比較好啊你對農業部不好啊關於農業部預算比我們大十幾倍啊沒有啦"},{"start":17730.785,"end":17758.833,"text":"沒有沒有沒有絕對沒有農委會之前平均才多少預算後來是升格變步之後才逐步的慢慢的調高起來對不對那你們現在以前是環保署啊現在叫環境部啊對啊你們預算如果比人家少那你們就漏氣了啊你知道我在問你一次你知道那個環保署變成環境部是誰的主責是要處理對啊對啊連家我那個也是我處理人家預算可以增加為什麼你預算不能增加對啊那下面的人就有問題了"},{"start":17760.549,"end":17778.739,"text":"委員我們要加油啦,我們希望增加啦。好,謝謝了。好,謝謝委員。一個月。還有一個,一個很快的很快的,那個,不好意思啦。我們通常工廠看起來大廈嘛,這沒有你很清楚嘛。有。傳有酸氣外洩嘛,引起人到了恐慌,化學署的技術小組第一時間也趕到現場。然後,"},{"start":17781.48,"end":17805.747,"text":"我想這個獨化災絕對是近已截然最棘手的一個災害之一像我們雲林又是我的母縣石化工業園區然後我們更深知這個獨化災的危險性跟影響性所以我在委員會也特別拜託我們磁鐵環保署現在的獨化署建樹了在雲林六清又成立了一支叫這個麥寮環境事故專業技術小組"},{"start":17808.948,"end":17834.583,"text":"因為那個原本是有是在朵六但是從朵六趕到這個六千的十萬元區那個是要一個鐘頭環部計級的那我也特別感謝這個環境部跟我們獨化署可以做這樣來處理那也跟在地的這樣的零星的一個安撫來講就達到一定程度的這樣的效果那請教部長目前環境事故專業紀錄小組總共有幾對"},{"start":17836.324,"end":17856.482,"text":"現在有10對有10對嘛那我們希望擴增啦擴增啊為什麼要擴增因為其實有一些地方例如說東半部花蓮台東金門目前還沒有我們現在考慮那個地方先來設分店啦分隊好花蓮台東嘛齁對啊你們現在有多增加一對嘛就是要進駐東華東華大學花蓮的東華大學嘛對正在規劃當中對啊為什麼會花蓮多於一處然後要進到東華大學"},{"start":17863.104,"end":17885.667,"text":"為什麼選擇這個地方?能不能簡單說明就好?就是0403那個花蓮地震導致東華大學的那個實驗室大火。對。那個非常嚴重嘛。延燒的相關的一些化學物質延燒24小時嘛。整個校舍是全毀嘛。所以我們今天才會...為什麼第一時間沒有我們的應變隊去做處理?為什麼沒有?"},{"start":17891.072,"end":17905.817,"text":"當時我們在這個花東的部分是委託那個以花蓮是中華紫江因為他也有聯防小組所以平常我們都委託他去處理但是這次因為地震應該說路線受阻結果他進不到裡面這樣子"},{"start":17910.037,"end":17925.501,"text":"您們不是要從宜蘭要派我們的應變小組過去嗎?那是北區。對。對,就是我們10隊的話,那是由我們去啦。對啊對啊對啊。但是在比較緊急的狀況,像花蓮這樣子的話,我們會有拜託,應該說有一個合作協定啦。對對。請那個聯防小組來幫忙。"},{"start":17928.562,"end":17947.251,"text":"那個聯邦小組也因為道路中斷嘛,地震嘛,對不對?道路坍塌嘛,所以那個小組一樣沒有辦法到東華大學直接去做相關的應變作為嘛,對不對?一樣道理嘛,你從宜蘭要調過來,道路還是一樣嘛,道路中斷都沒辦法處理嘛。那你們現在只有給花蓮。"},{"start":17951.232,"end":17969.818,"text":"花蓮設施要應付未來的花東嗎?是不是這樣?不是,我們台東跟金門都會同時來規劃。好,那這樣我就放心了啦。我們就是這樣講的,剛剛開始講的就願意籌謀嘛,不要重蹈覆轍。不然你像花蓮發生這個事情,再跌破再出力,藝人要丟軌也要用路。"},{"start":17971.218,"end":17971.358,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員"},{"start":17988.086,"end":18004.707,"text":"接下來請何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員不在接下來請吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員不在接下來請鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在接下來請賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員不在"},{"start":18005.889,"end":18023.141,"text":"秋智惟委員 秋智惟委員 秋智惟委員不在張雅玲委員 張雅玲委員 張雅玲委員不在今天的會議詢答全部結束委員楊耀委員張雅玲所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":18023.921,"end":18037.577,"text":"現在作以下決定及決議。報告說明及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其所定。"},{"start":18038.678,"end":18057.88,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管公務及基金預算以及環境資源研究發展基金會等四家財團法人114年度預算書案另則其繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":18142.832,"end":18145.242,"text":"關於我們當時被叫立法院處罰﹖我們當時有一個處罰"}]}},{"id":"16264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16264","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db10c4563b5e5bf20a0f9a65472a0a5ac3edb79b8bfb08e7996764e0f9a4384ef25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-11-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-11-14T08:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T12:15:00+08:00","duration":13454,"影片長度":"03:44:14","委員發言時間":"08:30:46 - 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委員徐巧芯等人擬具《動物保護法》部分條文修正草案案。arness 委員鄭天才等人擬具《動物保護法》"},{"start":1919.997,"end":1943.612,"text":"條例第12條及第十條條文修正草案案：委員李坤誠等人擬具《動物保護法》部分條文修正草案案： 11委員廖先祥等人擬具《動物保護法》部分條文修正草案案： 12本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《動物保護法》部分條文修正草案案。決議詢答結束。令定期繼續審查。散會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1947.799,"end":1953.264,"text":"條例第十一條條文修正草案 案。adequate委員徐巧芯等21人擬具:「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":1973.802,"end":1999.461,"text":"條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案案。」五、本院委員黃宏維等19人擬具:「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案案。」今日尋導二、審查一、本院委員王美惠等人擬具個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案案。二、委員賴世保等人擬具個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案案。五、本院委員黃宏維等19人擬具"},{"start":1999.881,"end":2015.882,"text":"第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案案。厲 委員邱志維等人擬具《個人資料保護法》第21條、第29條及第32條條文修正草案案。厲 委員賴瑞榮等人擬具《個人資料保護法》部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2016.403,"end":2032.492,"text":"五本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《個人資料保護法》第47條48條及第49條條文修正草案案六本院委員黃潔等人擬具《個人資料保護法》部分條文修正草案案七委員徐宇珍等人擬具《個人資料保護法》第六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2033.412,"end":2056.938,"text":"今日尋答三審查一本院委員陳廷飛等人擬具里島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案案二委員鄭天才等人擬具里島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案案三委員陳玉珍等人擬具里島建設條例增定第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案案四委員陳玉珍等人擬具里島建設條例增定第十八條之一條文草案案"},{"start":2058.285,"end":2069.353,"text":"條例第五委員賴瑞榮等人擬具《離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案案》案,六委員陳穎等人擬具《離島建設條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。本案今日詢答。"},{"start":2073.171,"end":2098.99,"text":"本院議程牌定討論三種法案分別是再生能源發展條例、個人資料保護法以及離島政策條例等部分條文修正案本院進行詢答首先介紹在場委員跟列席的機關首長我們在場的有陳玉珍委員還有徐宇珍委員然後我們在場的機關首長有經濟部常務次長連錦章"},{"start":2103.254,"end":2128.086,"text":"中國規劃師副司長許嘉琳經濟法治司副司長黃婉玉產業發展署主秘林德昇國際貿易署主秘戴婉容能源署署長游正偉"},{"start":2131.078,"end":2148.369,"text":"徐力署副署長林元鵬標準檢驗局主秘吳秋文國家發展委員會副主委彭麗佩中文規劃處副處長李佩玉經濟發展處副處長陳美菊"},{"start":2159.139,"end":2168.946,"text":"成立發展處副處長陳瓊華能力發展處副處長鄭嘉金國土區域離島發展處處長黃文彥法治協調處專門委員黃淑芳行政國家發展基金管理委員會副執行秘書施明山個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任李士德"},{"start":2191.866,"end":2220.769,"text":"副主任陳齊雲法治事務組組長林玉佳查核官號組組長張玉琳影視科技組組長林益成王業部資源永續利用師副司長王玉珍國際事務司副司長洪曉鈞"},{"start":2223.713,"end":2238.907,"text":"語譽署檢任記證游秀文動植防疫檢疫署組長林志憲民業及資源保育署檢任記證黃敬彥環境部環境保護師檢任記證呂雅文資源循環署副組長梁開忠"},{"start":2248.968,"end":2268.37,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":2274.417,"end":2296.023,"text":"國際通訊傳播委員會法律事務署署長蔡志儒數位發展部數位發展業署副署長陳惠敏法治署副署長吳怡仁衛生福利部醫事師檢任計政李念慈"},{"start":2300.644,"end":2323.755,"text":"護理及健康照護師檢驗計政陳青梅社會及家庭署組長李育穎交通部行政司代理副司長盧清泉財政部國有財源署副署長王采葉公務署副署長陳世豐"},{"start":2328.165,"end":2348.536,"text":"勞動部中投規劃司副司長謝清雲勞動力發展署專門委員黃偉成大陸委員會副主委梁文傑園民會社會福利處處長羅赫祿"},{"start":2355.039,"end":2379.426,"text":"行政院主計總處、基金預算處專門委員戴群芳。我們現在依討論法案順序請提案委員說明提案意旨。在場的委員我們先請陳玉珍委員。陳玉珍委員有再生能源發展條例還有另外一個是離島介在條例就請一併說明。謝謝。"},{"start":2388.37,"end":2393.945,"text":"條例第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第22屆第23屆第33屆第34屆第45屆第46屆第47屆第48屆第48屆第49屆第50屆第51屆第52屆第53屆第54屆第56屆第56屆第57屆第57屆第58屆第58屆第59屆第60屆第60屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第62屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61屆第61"},{"start":2395.319,"end":2402.365,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案的兩個案子,那先謝謝還有謝謝我們曾政前委員,謝謝大家在今天可以讓這個在場的這麼多的官員可以了解到這個"},{"start":2421.328,"end":2424.311,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2442.35,"end":2444.231,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．"},{"start":2467.927,"end":2474.788,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條"},{"start":2494.592,"end":2495.073,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":2511.912,"end":2513.712,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":2535.117,"end":2554.993,"text":"需要的發展是什麼?基本地區的民意是什麼?中華民國憲法正確條例第十條第二項有規定國家應依民族意願保障援助民族之地位及政治參與並對其教育文化、交通水利、衛生醫療、經濟土地及社會福利、事業益益保障、輔助並促其發展,還要用法律另外定"},{"start":2555.533,"end":2572.432,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正�"},{"start":2575.976,"end":2578.337,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":2596.081,"end":2599.262,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、�"},{"start":2625.731,"end":2628.092,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":2643.217,"end":2646.239,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":2672.932,"end":2678.414,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":2702.262,"end":2725.845,"text":"條例第十一條條文修正草案。」案,雖然他們不是離島地區的委員,但他們提出相關離島經濟條例修正本席都是十分的贊成,尤其我看到陳委員跟鄭天偉爭取的是在離島地區原住民的條文修正,那我們至少比照跟原住民一樣的做法。"},{"start":2726.365,"end":2740.215,"text":"民眾黨說這個設立我們金門地區希望設立醫療特區就是要引中共入關要讓門戶大開那我想民眾黨這樣說是因為他們不了解現在事實上金門地區事實上已經有開放讓"},{"start":2741.596,"end":2743.437,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審"},{"start":2759.821,"end":2767.346,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。 所以我們提出這些條例的修正是要讓整個的這個離島地區的這個有關的相關的比如醫療的部分可以有更大的這個發展。那今天以金門地區來講因為地理位置距離台灣本島比較遠所以整個醫療網路沒有辦法完善。那我們是希望透過推動離島國際醫療特區來提升我們金門地區的醫療水準然後讓我們的產業可以帶來活水但也不會對台灣這邊的產業產生排擠效應尤其"},{"start":2789.202,"end":2789.783,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":2805.422,"end":2806.882,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":2827.188,"end":2828.409,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":2849.83,"end":2853.031,"text":"條例第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":2868.118,"end":2870.599,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":2896.277,"end":2899.165,"text":"如果我們不能算國際港區,那是賴總統說的是錯誤的喔。"},{"start":2901.263,"end":2903.743,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":2929.608,"end":2930.569,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":2950.319,"end":2952.321,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":2979.174,"end":2983.57,"text":"謝謝陳玉珍委員的提案說明我們接下來請徐宇珍委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2996.134,"end":3013.122,"text":"謝謝主席。各位委員還有各位列席的觀眾大家好。今天我所要提案這個說明的部分是指個人資料保護法第六條的條文修正因為當前我們正處於一個資訊爆炸的時代科技的進步帶給我們無限的便利但是也帶來無"},{"start":3014.182,"end":3016.163,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":3043.129,"end":3058.842,"text":"他們利用這種通訊記錄衍生出來的資料試圖為自己的政治目的服務這種行為不但侵害了人民的隱私權更是對民主自由的赤裸裸的挑戰電信法第二條第八款雖然定義了通訊記錄的範疇但是隨著科技的進步"},{"start":3062.725,"end":3084.97,"text":"僅僅限制在發信方、收信方、通信時間等的資本資訊已經無法完全保護電信使用人的隱私手機的普及使得每個人的通信記錄成為有心人挖掘的寶庫他們可以透過這些資料拼湊出一個人的行動、足跡、生活軌跡甚至是他們的網路瀏覽習慣跟政治傾向試想一下"},{"start":3087.651,"end":3089.072,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":3108.762,"end":3132.896,"text":"個人資料保護庫法的第六條增列禁止收集、處理或利用通信記錄衍生相關資料的條文這不僅是對法律的完善更是對人民權利的捍衛我們必須明確的規定任何人不得在未經當事人同意的情況下利用電信記錄進行二次分析和利用只有這樣才能夠真正的保護"},{"start":3134.396,"end":3159.482,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。 »: 我想讓我們共同努力推動這份修法,為我們的子孫建立一個更為安全更自由的社會,讓每一個公民都能夠安心的使用科技,而不必擔心被追蹤、被標籤。我們的法律應該成為人民權利的守護者,而不是讓有心人士鑽漏洞的工具。"},{"start":3160.442,"end":3164.443,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":3182,"end":3200.034,"text":"條例我今天的提案是針對這個再生能源發展條例的第三條條文修正案喔那目前在我國的再生能源發展條例裡面雖然明確定義了再生能源包含秋蓄式的水利發電但是沒有能夠比照其他的能源項目同時辦理"},{"start":3201.155,"end":3221.262,"text":"特別是裝置容量大於2萬瓦的大型水庫水力發電例如翡翠水庫、石門水庫、曾文水庫等等因為他們沒有納入這個條例的範疇就是我們這次線型條文裡面看到的是本來只有寫到小水力發電"},{"start":3222.222,"end":3240.767,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案, 且裝置容量未達兩萬瓦之發電方式。所以我們希望能夠改成非抽蓄式水力發電池,利用水道等等的抽蓄式為相關的發電方式之外,在第十一條裏面,再生能源的發電設備我們也"},{"start":3242.688,"end":3264.605,"text":"希望改成說除了直接燃燒廢棄物質發電之外,申請主管機關認定符合第四條第四項所規定辦法之發電設備。那為什麼希望這樣做呢?是因為剛剛我講的包含翡翠水庫、石門水庫、曾文水庫等等他們沒有納入條例的範疇就無法取得再生能源憑證跟探權喔。"},{"start":3265.265,"end":3267.466,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":3281.352,"end":3284.014,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":3304.144,"end":3322.484,"text":"他的裝置容量是7萬千瓦每年平均發電量可以達到2.2億度的電這樣的發電量對於綠能的推動貢獻應該是不可忽視的可是呢因為現行法規的限制所以翡翠水庫的電力沒有辦法納入再生能源的範疇使得他的電價漲幅從30多年的1.36元"},{"start":3325.487,"end":3327.128,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":3342.494,"end":3349.497,"text":"現在的翡翠發電廠的購電契約的現行規範裡面,台電調漲電價的時候,市府賣給台電的價格只能調整電價上漲部分的80%,也就是電價上漲一塊錢,台電跟民眾多收一塊錢電價漲幅的部分,但台電只需要付翡翠水庫的0.8塊。"},{"start":3365.862,"end":3367.803,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":3391.656,"end":3395.537,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":3409.542,"end":3433.746,"text":"將翡翠水庫的發電水力發電的納入再生能源的計價那從112年翡翠水庫發電的1億5800多萬度來說台電跟翡翠水庫發電廠買只要3億元但向外去購買水力發電的度數卻要發4.5億元完全是康了我們台北市民之慨所以雖然今天我看到這個本部意見裡面有講到說這個"},{"start":3437.248,"end":3445.577,"text":"我們已經有113年的公告修正再生能源憑證實施辦法放寬納入大型非抽搐式水利得依法申請再生能源憑證但是呢因為"},{"start":3451.644,"end":3479.178,"text":"水庫式水利多屬於98年公佈施行的案例,那所以呢他們認為說這個我們的提案雖然與目前的推動方向相符但是呢現在他們已經有政府有具體可行的執行做法因所以希望維持現行規範也符合我們的提案與本質但是我不認同這樣子的說法是因為呢如果你沒有把它寫在這個再生能源發展條例裡面"},{"start":3480.319,"end":3483.363,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":3495.939,"end":3516.581,"text":"放在實施辦法裡面不是一個好的辦法應該要直接放在再生能源發展條例裡面作為一個正式的法律規定台北市政府跟台電之間包含翡翠水庫的部分我們才有正式的法律可以依從所以我們還是堅持就是說這個"},{"start":3517.602,"end":3526.004,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案案的發展條例希望能夠納入在再生能源發展條例裏面。以上提案說明,謝謝。"},{"start":3537.537,"end":3540.119,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3560.818,"end":3586.998,"text":"條例相關的修正草案來進行報告。那其實我們本部在今年的12、3號已經有針對我們再生能源發展條例已經有進行預告。那這個在應該是在12月份就會送到我們大院來審查。那我們現在以下請就我們本部修正的再生能源發展條例的內容還有大院各委員跟黨團所擬具的草案內容來做以下報告。"},{"start":3587.819,"end":3590.08,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、並於113年10月23日公告本次修法的內容包括下列四個重點。一、因應再生能源"},{"start":3608.251,"end":3624.74,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八"},{"start":3625.868,"end":3641.281,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。 另一條要強化再生能源發電設備完成事務之後的委員要求,建立發電設備的全生命週期管理機制。那這次修訂的內容明定所有全能在進入存續期間內,"},{"start":3643.523,"end":3669.88,"text":"應確認設備持續運轉發電以進一步強化屋頂空間被妥善利用。那第三個為了規範地熱導入定向井之土地使用及取得規定我們也明確規範定向井經過他人土地下方所涉及的土地使用權包含地權、土地容許使用就地用等相關規定。那第四個完備再生能源憑證及共同生壓站之授權規範"},{"start":3670.96,"end":3683.904,"text":"本部在這次修正草案納入目前由商品檢驗法所規定的再生能源憑證的實施程序,那以便使我們本部後續可就憑證的合法、查核及轉讓等相關規範能夠參照國際再生能源相關規定來辦理。"},{"start":3690.302,"end":3702.897,"text":"那再來有關大院委員陳玉珍等17人許委員巧芯等21人還有台灣民眾黨以及黃汪威等19人所修訂的相關的再生能源條例的內容"},{"start":3703.712,"end":3728.678,"text":"條例以下做一些說明。第一個內容有關水利發電納入再生能源憑證及探險交易對象。這是徐巧芯委員跟黃王威等委員所提議的。那水庫水利為非收蓄水利之一種。因此依據目前的再生能源發展條例第三條第一項第一款規定水庫式水利已屬於再生能源。那我們本部標準局為順應跟國際接軌"},{"start":3730.718,"end":3752.228,"text":"在113年9月24號也公告修正再生能源憑證實施辦法的裡面已經有把大型非抽搐式水利,也就是水庫式水利依法可以申請再生能源憑證。那委員提案內容與目前推動的方向相符,而且我們本部也有具體的推動的方向,我們建立為此現行規範,"},{"start":3753.348,"end":3764.17,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：立法院第十一條條文修正草案：立法院第十一條條文修正草案：立法院第十二條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十六條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":3778.769,"end":3805.986,"text":"能夠委員能夠支持我們本部所提的相關的草案規範那第三個有關針對離島地區應考量加權等購費率及提供示範獎勵補助那這是由陳玉珍委員所提議的那本部意見是說目前參佐再生能源發電設備在離島地區的設置成本以及運轉費用等相關因素已經透過現行的電能等購機制明定離島地區"},{"start":3806.966,"end":3825.693,"text":"海底電纜與台灣本島連接前,它等購費率已經有加成15%。那海底電纜跟台灣本島連接之後,它等購費率又加了4%的額外的加成費率。那另外依照離島建設條例等相關規定,在離島建設基金中也有納入推廣再生能源"},{"start":3826.393,"end":3833.48,"text":"發展的補助用途。那委員的提案內容本部已有具體而且可行的執行作法,未來也將持續檢討精進更符合委員的提案的意旨。那第四個有關再生能源發電設備應與設置前建立一個協調機制,這是台灣民眾黨"},{"start":3843.289,"end":3858.725,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案的提議,那各類本部意見,各類再生能源開發規模如果涉及向環境影響評估法相關的法令規定當然就要強化跟民眾的溝通,那另外太陽光鏈設置的特性跟土地利用息息相關,那本部"},{"start":3860.166,"end":3875.714,"text":"已經在最近多次邀請中央各部會、地方政府及光電業者共同研商目前已經有研擬修正電力登記規則未來除了既有的施工說明會之外太陽光電業者在申請電力籌設或擴建許可前也必須公開接入資訊同時在生壓站或光處所在村裡以及"},{"start":3882.796,"end":3898.719,"text":"光電模組鋪設最多的村里要進入辦理地方說明會那委員提案內容跟我們目前推動的方向相互而且本部也有具體的執行的方向所以我們建立為此現行規劃以符合委員提案的建立意志"},{"start":3899.179,"end":3924.39,"text":"那最後感謝大院各位委員對我國再生能源發展政策所提供的建議那本部為使再生能源發展條例的推動更加的完善也擬具了再生能源發展條例的部分條文修正草案並且在113年10月23號正式預告廣征各界意見本部將迅速完成再生能源發展條例部分條文修正草案的法制作業"},{"start":3924.89,"end":3929.033,"text":"條例第12屆第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期經濟委員會第13期"},{"start":3949.528,"end":3951.208,"text":"條例第四條規定本條例制主管機關在中央為行政院"},{"start":3976.233,"end":3993.631,"text":"條例中涉及各部會業務職場之條文則由各中央目的事業主管機關主政並遵循行政院整體國家安全經濟及社會發展政策本會研析各條文後意見如下一"},{"start":3994.286,"end":4016.945,"text":"修正本條例第二條及第十五條之一條文離島建設條例是保障與協助卻與本島隔離無法與陸路交通連結導致運輸、舊衣、水電、民生物資運送等隨時受天候影響無法由本島經陸路及時馳援之地區"},{"start":4018.186,"end":4027.111,"text":"以維護離島地區居民權益。因此,離島建設條例實為照顧與台灣本島隔離屬於我國管轄之島嶼如金門縣、連江縣、澎湖縣、屏東縣、琉球鄉及台東縣、綠島鄉、蘭嶼鄉地區及其居民。"},{"start":4042.648,"end":4070.415,"text":"修正提案第二條所稱類離島是指高雄市旗津區。旗津區交通可及性遠高於離島地區,水電、民生物資亦不予短缺,與現行離島建設條例適用離島地區情況不同。為維護離島建設條例立法議旨,建議維持第二條原條文不令增列類離島地區以及相關補助條文。二、"},{"start":4071.323,"end":4074.329,"text":"修正本條例第十之一條文"},{"start":4075.629,"end":4093.614,"text":"在本島通行、港口及機場設置離島免稅購物商店提貨區,所以可以提高離島免稅購物商店營業額,帶動離島觀光,為可能影響一般商家的競爭力。鑒於離島建設條例立法議址,是為照顧離島地區產業發展,故應守重離島大多數在地營業人之權益,"},{"start":4105.899,"end":4131.367,"text":"本條文前會期亦有委員提案討論本修正條文。今一百一十三年七月十五日大院第十一屆第一會期第二十二次院會會議二讀維持現行條文,所以行政及立法部門與前會期已有共識。三、修正本條例第十三條條文。一、原住民"},{"start":4132.216,"end":4148.628,"text":"租委員會說明為補助因經濟困難致無法參加全民健保之原住民並維護其就醫權益該會以訂定補助原住民全民健康保險費實施要點以涵蓋經濟弱勢者建議維持現有制度辦理。"},{"start":4158.151,"end":4162.439,"text":"徵定本條例第十三條之一、十三條之二條文提升"},{"start":4163.733,"end":4165.454,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":4193.917,"end":4213.667,"text":"上不宜再離島建設條例另行制定。五、增訂本條例第18條之一條文政府對於所有離島地區之發展均透過跨部門協力並整合公務預算及離島基金資源請力投入協助離島地區達成永續發展目標。"},{"start":4216.408,"end":4242.89,"text":"目前政府並無自由貿易示範區之相關法令僅交通部定有自由貿易港區設置管理條例為離島地區並無國際航空站或國際港口尚不適用該條例又離島建設條例對貨物與定有相關稅負減免目前相關制度已可協助離島地區發展"},{"start":4245.003,"end":4271.105,"text":"令兩岸政策屬於中央政府職權且金馬在兩岸關係居關鍵角色因需依循中央政策與兩岸條例架構下與大陸地區進行交流以及互動往來。以上報告敬請各位委員指教。謝謝。謝謝彭麗佩夫主委。我們接下來請個人資料保護委員會儲備處主任李士德主任經典報告。謝謝。"},{"start":4279.941,"end":4304.786,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位機關代表、各位女士先生。今天封邀列席貴委員會就審查在今天書面報告所列大院委員所提的七份個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案,代表本籌備處報告。以下請就個人資料保護法的修法政策及彙整各版本的一些修法重點給大家說明、檢調來報告。一、"},{"start":4307.586,"end":4315.353,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":4333.519,"end":4356.151,"text":"先修正公布了第一條之一明定個人事要保護法主管機關是個人事要保護委員會那雖然說這個部分尚未施行但是行政院已經籌設了我們個人事要保護委員會的籌備處來進行個人事要保護委員會的一個籌建的這個過程那在目前現階段這是一個任務型機關"},{"start":4357.659,"end":4378.747,"text":"那以建制未來個人事要保護法這個主管的個人事要保護法的各自會相關監管機制為最優先的任務那目前各自法適用的對象非常的廣泛公務機關目前統計大概有8000餘個非公務機關若以營利事業登記為例的話大概有165萬家"},{"start":4380.708,"end":4381.809,"text":"提出可行有效的監督權限配套的各自法修正草案。"},{"start":4401.082,"end":4404.124,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":4421.116,"end":4443.496,"text":"當由明年即將成立的個人事要各自法的主管機關各自會能名副其實地來進行全盤的修正研議向大院提出完整的各自法修正草案來根據由各自法主管機關完成重大的法制建設。那二有關於今天所提的大院委員的七份個人事要保護委員會修正草案"},{"start":4445.267,"end":4461.284,"text":"我們原則上都有在這邊有入列了一些我們的建議說明那因為今天時間所限就請各位委員參照但是大體來講的話我們建議啊既然前面已經提到各自法的主管機關是個人資料保護委員會"},{"start":4462.185,"end":4481.531,"text":"條例第七條、第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十七條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案等。"},{"start":4485.643,"end":4508.83,"text":"感謝各位提案委員對於我國各自法的一個重視那這些提案都非常的良善為了讓未來擔任各自法主管機關的各自會於明年及早成立那本籌備處會緊速的來推動完成各自法權限制配套各自法修正草案以及組織法謹慎送大院審議藉此再請各位委員及黨團支持謝謝"},{"start":4511.63,"end":4516.395,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案．一、審查：一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．"},{"start":4549.512,"end":4566.079,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是請三個修法的主要行政單位做備詢。OK,請林次長,然後請我們彭副主委,然後請一下我們李主任,謝謝。"},{"start":4569.347,"end":4570.668,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4589.71,"end":4610.956,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案、行政院必須在114年8月11日前成立各自保護委員會。所以我們籌備會大概都針對這個委員會的成立在做一些運作跟安排。那麼我們現在走到今天已經到了"},{"start":4612.048,"end":4615.451,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":4620.367,"end":4649.008,"text":"跟委員報告齁目前現在我們預計會在今年零幾前會要完成這個相關法律修正的這個預告什麼法律修正一個是我們個人資料保護法為了配合這個組織法的成立組織法就是這個各自保護委員會要成立的組織法嗎對你有組織法怎麼成立委員會是對所以你們現在在下個會期會把這樣的一個各自保護委員會的這個部分"},{"start":4649.688,"end":4658.532,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":4677.461,"end":4680.222,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":4696.289,"end":4698.091,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":4713.951,"end":4716.752,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":4744.382,"end":4769.833,"text":"雖然大法官要求8月11號以前可是這個個人資料保護委員會說真的是牽扯到我們的個資而且我們個人資料保護法我們整個大修這都牽扯到我們前面所謂的一個無法的問題這無法問題也牽扯到我們現在個資說真的現在每個人"},{"start":4771.411,"end":4772.891,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":4793.717,"end":4798.542,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審"},{"start":4816.479,"end":4821.421,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":4843.171,"end":4866.399,"text":"然後我們就要進行整個個人資料保護法的大修然後依照現在可能我所面臨的全部詐騙可能的手法包括數位部等等各個部會全部做一個跨部會的一些討論把我們個人資料保護法做一個最完整的"},{"start":4867.039,"end":4876.673,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案、甚至我們的處罰都要做了一個很確切的一個處理,這很重要喔!重罰啦!"},{"start":4878.692,"end":4904.831,"text":"誰洩露個資誰就重罰哪一個單位沒有辦法保護到個人資料就要重罰好不好這才能是把我們所有台灣人民的一些權利不會被騙這很重要否則怎麼會大家的資料誰都可以拿到這是很恐怖的這也會牽扯到每個人人人自為啊現在大家黨委都不敢講"},{"start":4906.425,"end":4924.981,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條文�"},{"start":4927.735,"end":4952.137,"text":"經濟部我們相關單位在公告的再生能源法的部分也都差不多那是不是我們應該要等到我們行政院版進來再去做討論我們是建議說因為我們現在已經在預告了嘛十一二三大預告我們是也是建議說是不是等到我們送到大院來在病案再來一起來討論因為我看了預告跟現在大家所提出的大概的方向"},{"start":4953.063,"end":4971.995,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案案。 »: 都差不多啦。表示大家認為現在預告的部分也是目前再生能源大家要趕快去處理的一個關鍵所以我也是建議啦不要再跌床駕屋也不要是好像一個案子這麼重要的再生能源法然後一次要討論好多個"},{"start":4974.37,"end":4998.876,"text":"這樣的一個版本我們就是立委的版本跟行政院的版本一次討論一次到位我相信這才是人民所需要的所以我還是建議說等行政院的版本進來我們再一次好好的討論一次修好不要修很多次那第三個部分就是我們的離島離島條例的部分離島條例的部分我發現似乎"},{"start":5002.813,"end":5025.128,"text":"我們有很多的所謂逾越到我們法令現在母法的部分包括兩岸人民關係條例這是很危險的這是極度危險的如果我們的離島條例我們認為保護每個人的權利都是我們必須去照顧的保護每一個縣市每一個"},{"start":5026.329,"end":5032.272,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":5042.825,"end":5057.294,"text":"其實在委員們修法的那個條例的內容裡面其實也不只只有那個大陸人民關係條例啦因為但這個是非常高的位其實我們重要而且跟國家安全還有我們經濟社會發展有很嚴重的關聯嘿"},{"start":5058.439,"end":5061.74,"text":"徐巧芯等21人擬具:「再生能源發展條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5075.785,"end":5080.687,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":5094.684,"end":5100.528,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":5117.622,"end":5121.146,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5141.326,"end":5142.308,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":5152.628,"end":5172.164,"text":"跟委員報告其實現在我們在那個114年修那個醫院設置條例的時候已經把國際醫療專區的病房已經放在對已經修了嘛 對不對所以其實現在在我們的任何地方然後縣市我們如果有國際醫療專區要適用是OK的"},{"start":5174.867,"end":5181.232,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":5204.464,"end":5226.07,"text":"站在陸委會的立場只要是在中華民國國境裡面他的中華民國跟對岸的所有人員的往來貨物的往來投資的行為然後以及其他相關的規定等等都要按照兩岸人民關係條例來進行"},{"start":5228.103,"end":5253.67,"text":"那現在譬如說我們現在有自由貿易港區有六個自由貿易港區但是這六個自由貿易港區的人員往來或是投資等等都還是要歸兩岸人民關係條例來管所以不管是未來離島條例如何修正如何進行發展我們都希望說他不能夠拖曳兩岸人民關係條例的管理謝謝"},{"start":5254.77,"end":5263.237,"text":"條例第13條、第14條及第18條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":5285.672,"end":5288.08,"text":"謝謝主席。楊卓英發言。首先要請經濟部。請連次長。"},{"start":5295.532,"end":5314.886,"text":"市長好我們還是繼續來討論中火減煤超時空的支票到底要開給誰看那卓院長在8號的時候他視察了中火他拋出了一個議題請你注意聽他說2032年檢討六部的藍煤機組的存費你很清楚"},{"start":5322.511,"end":5340.724,"text":"台中電廠在2034年要無煤供電。台電曾董事長表示可以承諾在2031年燃氣第二期的第一部機組上線之後就可以依序減煤300萬。"},{"start":5342.895,"end":5345.856,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":5370.08,"end":5373.922,"text":"王美花部長的時候爭一氣就減煤對不對市長現在因為現在整個現在台中這個東西你先針對本席沒關係我們理事來討論王美花擔任經濟部長的時候這個承諾你不用怕2031年現在目前已經已經有還是有那個燃氣機組會會有第一部燃氣機組會上線阿"},{"start":5398.769,"end":5420.802,"text":"還是有減煤啊?本席請問你當時擔任經濟部長的王美花那當時對台中人的承諾就是增一氣就減煤的承諾那同時在兩個禮拜前在這裡我問了郭部長跟問了曾董事長他們都承諾也就是第一期的兩部燃氣機組上線之後"},{"start":5423.163,"end":5425.744,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":5445.179,"end":5448.28,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":5464.907,"end":5466.829,"text":"六部的藍媒機組的存廢。換句話說跟王美花部長當時爭一氣拆媒爭一氣拆媒是跳票了這是第一個第二個也就是說我們的這個媒的一個總量"},{"start":5481.843,"end":5500.091,"text":"我們在看到如果依照卓院長所說的說法那換句話說從現在到2031年就沒有減煤的計畫所以我要問次長本期要問次長你們的減煤計畫到底是怎麼樣到底是怎麼樣請說明"},{"start":5501.892,"end":5511.74,"text":"我跟委員報告那個剛剛提到因為現在到2026年那個第一部難解期組上線這個是我們確認對這個確認就是差異部就是爭議器那差異媒爭議器差異媒這個是確認大家都承諾而且會做到我要謝謝那接下來我要請問的"},{"start":5524.102,"end":5535.173,"text":"院長突然8號宣布2031年以後才要去討論而且減300萬噸所以要請問2031年從現在到2031年有7年的時間你們的減煤計畫是什麼請做說明"},{"start":5546.887,"end":5559.071,"text":"現在到2026會拆兩部嗎?對!這是承諾的!所以我讚許王美花部長!然後再來第二期會有第二期的計畫嘛!第二期計畫就是剛才委員講的2031到2034我們會有...請針對議題提問!2031年"},{"start":5571.117,"end":5575.139,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":5592.598,"end":5608.364,"text":"主席、委員、委員好那個委員剛剛的提報裡面在2025年的時候那個經濟部長王部長的時候他在承諾請針對主席抗議我已經運用了將近五分鐘的時間本席要請問的我講整個背包講得這麼清楚"},{"start":5619.588,"end":5623.61,"text":"我們台中人用費發電你們要看到我們的健康問題我們付出了那麼多沒有理由不照顧我們所以我針對卓院長8號到台電視察的時候所提出的2031年從現在到2031年我請問你們的減肥計畫是怎麼樣數字告訴我"},{"start":5644.122,"end":5668.109,"text":"現在是2024年2023年截至到目前為止現在是2024年2024年113年我們現在目前的減煤有分兩個部分一個是短期隨著空污量的環評規定裡面每天都自主性的在減煤這是一個事第二個事情就"},{"start":5669.906,"end":5673.729,"text":"台中電廠的一期計劃跟二期計劃裡面從二、三到目前為止除了短期計劃以外我們現在只要是2025年第一部燃氣機組上來就回歸到剛剛委員講的。您是副總吧。是。您是副總吧。您了解這個情況吧。次長。"},{"start":5693.139,"end":5694.862,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":5709.482,"end":5714.786,"text":"大概是1200公噸如果從2031年才要去檢討1260噸要減300減到900那我現在從現在開始到2031年的7年我台中人怎麼辦啊我要請問你的是我台中人怎麼辦所以我要你的數字我告訴你你請聽聽清楚我要你聽清楚從現在到2031年你們我們目前現在大概是1100到1200"},{"start":5739.205,"end":5748.928,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十七條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案"},{"start":5761.872,"end":5779.426,"text":"我們把這個資料我們是不是會在整個把從剛才委員講的到2026到2031我們因為這個不是只有燃氣那個那個那個是天然天然還有一些其他的計畫性的減煤我們把這個所有的規劃我們送到委員辦公室"},{"start":5781.334,"end":5806.17,"text":"我希望我們社會大眾看到在立法院我們理性的在討論我們代表民眾來希望能夠聽到聲音我們不希望讓民眾恐慌但是我們要知道真實的答案因為我要告訴次長目前你們告訴我們有各種方案可是竟然會在8號的時候告訴我們"},{"start":5807.642,"end":5827.142,"text":"竟然要到2031年才要去討論從一千兩百六十萬公噸要減三百萬等於到九百萬那我現在要怎麼辦我現在告訴你你們的資訊告訴左軌是這麼的不精準我現在就已經藍美是一千一到一千二"},{"start":5828.51,"end":5853.526,"text":"他竟然很坦白的告訴我們2031年是1260換句話說,蒸汽我支持但是蒸汽你必須要減煤啊你如果蒸汽不減煤就會成立左軌所說的是越來越多是越來越多市長你懂台中人的心聲嗎?台中人這麼辛苦所以我繼續要來請問再給我兩分鐘時間謝謝"},{"start":5857.728,"end":5887.137,"text":"我要請問喔也就是你所謂的新核能市長你所謂的新核能我們的這個工業總會潘理事長跟郭部長跟你們的郭部長在交流的時候郭部長說未來呢一定會落實新核能那麼中研院的這個廖院長也說台灣沒有任何放棄乾淨能源的本錢國家能源不能排除核電對不對"},{"start":5888.203,"end":5905.06,"text":"而且之前也說不排除任何乾淨的人員你們經濟部是採開放的非常開放的態度對不對非常開放的態度各位關心核能這一塊經濟部當然是尊重各界對核能的檢討的一個立場"},{"start":5906.681,"end":5927.732,"text":"那政府對剛才陳副委員講政府對新核能的技術我們是持開放的態度開放的嘛所以我給你這個功課你要不要去討論你的環境基準法第23條要不要去修你的省主牌要不要去修非核家園這個才是真正才非常開放所以因此你非常開放你光光電"},{"start":5928.912,"end":5940.538,"text":"現在我們的國土法我要給你這個功課國土法內政部仍舊要4月份上路現在已經在執行的這些光點那麼未來他如果牽涉在農一農二的這個特農的範圍之內"},{"start":5944.58,"end":5969.757,"text":"那是不是整個取消?會不會影響到你的電力的一個增長?會不會?你們怎麼做?怎麼應對?我們那個能源土地那個用地白皮書齁我們已經送到那個內政部去了你這個內政部是什麼意思?已經申請還是維持?還是怎麼樣?我們建議說他有關光電這一塊要放到這一次修正的國土計畫裡面去要放到這一次國土計畫的?有放進去嗎?"},{"start":5972.509,"end":5974.291,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":5996.673,"end":6002.075,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":6018.666,"end":6042.882,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案案案。 »: 請林次長、郭專委還有我們的陸委會的副主委,謝謝。好,我先請教一下那個衛福部的郭專委,這個離島自由貿易區就是陳義正委員提案的部分,這個部分如果照他的條文通過會產生什麼影響?會跟現行的醫療法有一些判格。"},{"start":6043.561,"end":6049.263,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":6070.629,"end":6097.036,"text":"那如果照這樣的做法的話會不會擔心有一國兩制的問題因為一個台灣有兩種制度因為整體而言我們要的是可以完全的管理整個醫療體制所以應該是納入到同一個所以你們其實並不贊成這樣的修法對不對我們是建議你們希望還是維持既有的這個制度吧好謝謝專委那接下來我請一下連次長次長如果照這樣的修法通過的話對經濟產業會有什麼影響"},{"start":6099.229,"end":6102.152,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":6119.531,"end":6136.663,"text":"同一個中華民國下面有兩條因為這個剛剛其實有提到應該是要架構在整個兩岸聯名關係條例的一個不管在台灣這個整個所有每一個限制都應該是要遵守這樣的一個基本的法規不應該有所有所差別這樣所以你們其實並不贊成單獨成立一個專區這樣的概念來處理應該是要在現在的那個"},{"start":6140.646,"end":6142.368,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6164.063,"end":6179.729,"text":"我問次長因為這個還是真的是要謹慎去考慮因為我們面對的看這個自由貿易四萬區是要面對的是哪一些出口地所以說因為我們現在目前設立的這些自由貿都是向國際去對接的"},{"start":6181.249,"end":6195.25,"text":"他現在這樣的做法包括在中國這邊他所提出來這樣的做法其實看來是要讓你兩岸之間有一些融合的示範的發展不管是從金門而且看來是金門、廈門是他們一個主要的推動的一個區域"},{"start":6196.972,"end":6213.399,"text":"事長對這個部分會不會有所擔憂當然這個會啊 這兩岸的我們要謹慎來討論對我們的產業對我們整體上這個如果沒有做好的話對我們國內的產業是衝擊會是有衝擊的而且他透過了金門跟廈門的試點如果做完了之後那有沒有可能將來擴及到全台灣"},{"start":6214.667,"end":6217.869,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6244.428,"end":6246.989,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6265.898,"end":6285.095,"text":"這個部分裡面其實在境外地區台灣人民很多在境外地區都有在上一些醫學院醫學系那所以說這個部分裡面昨天部長已經明示了我們是謹守我們現在採取更謹慎的方式在處理照顧國人的安全嘛那你如果這邊又做了一個放寬的話那以後會不會那"},{"start":6285.535,"end":6298.666,"text":"更何況那個中國大陸的很多大家擔憂的更多了這恐怕會是一個更大的問題所以我想衛福部應該會站穩你們的立場啦會反對嘛好最後來邀請一下那個梁副主委好嗎副主委那個陸委會的態度呢"},{"start":6304.312,"end":6327.075,"text":"我們陸委會態度就很簡單不管是本島還是離島只要在中華民國領域內和對岸的往來就要受到兩岸條例的規範所以我們不會接受這個托役出兩岸條例規範的做法我舉例比如說自由貿易港區我們現在有六個自由貿易港區"},{"start":6327.856,"end":6353.824,"text":"但這六個自由貿易港區的關於人員流動、關於貨物流動、關於資金流動、專業證照、勞動條件等等都還是要受到兩岸人民關係條例的規範所以我不管離島建設條例它未來會怎麼修正但是它的人員、貨物、資金、證照、勞動條件等等都還是不能夠脫逸出兩岸條例"},{"start":6356.145,"end":6379.678,"text":"條例是一個比較上位的規定,他甚至考慮到很多國安的層次,所以他必須所有的都不應該超越這個層次,你超越這個層次恐怕都涉及到國家安全的問題了。是,而且從國家發展的角度來看,我們現在的經濟部或是相關單位所做的,不管什麼農業科學園區、科學園區等等這些,它實際上都是要跟國際對接了。"},{"start":6381.579,"end":6408.9,"text":"副主委那這樣子看來會不會大家擔憂?這樣的會不會是金門、廈門間用這種所謂的特區的概念來執行兩岸融合發展示範區?有沒有這樣的擔憂?我們還是堅持只要不管離島、本島會不會擔憂?主委會不會擔憂?副主委會不會擔憂?我們當然有注意到對岸的一些計畫跟方向那所以我們希望說台灣要有自己的發展方向"},{"start":6409.874,"end":6411.676,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6429.528,"end":6433.31,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6449.398,"end":6457.222,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":6498.764,"end":6525.969,"text":"來請先阿蓮次長請經濟部蓮次長委員好出席今天要討論再生能源這幾天綠營的弊案引起很大討論包括賴清德總統昨天都談話說要陳啟毅進訴到案而且他要中央跟地方要檢討整個行政流程跟突厥"},{"start":6527.079,"end":6530.74,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6553.387,"end":6557.09,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6585.536,"end":6609.062,"text":"銀報草果對不對他不是聯絡了金管會說要去查他有沒有草果對不對那事實上銀報跟你們也很有關係啊銀報牽扯到台灣綠能的這個弊案這個媒體有報導過好幾次民眾黨的立法委員也開過記者會了你看一下銀報從台元綠能搬走了上億元台元說會配合司法調查"},{"start":6610.54,"end":6636.62,"text":"我給你看一個圖齁我們看一下這個圖這個幣為什麼變成銀豹涉入臺元利能這個幣案一開始啊這塊土地北門暗場這個土地啊開始承租人是臺元利能結果呢到你看右邊暗場後來轉給銀豹投資公司以後銀豹已經賺了錢了齁結果後來突然又出現那個額外要支出上億元給縱橫家有限公司結果啦"},{"start":6637.946,"end":6665.509,"text":"進行縱橫家有限公司現在大家在質疑說包括人們去檢舉他是不是銀豹就是部長常常在講這個炒股的銀豹他跟縱橫家到底什麼關係縱橫家是不是他的子站公司有三個很特別的地方第一個銀豹跟縱橫家剛好設在同一個地址來歐的主席你去看兩家公司是同樣一個地址連絡人縱橫家連絡人剛好也是銀豹人員的經理"},{"start":6667.861,"end":6672.885,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6688.39,"end":6717.611,"text":"那我今天正式的提醒這個案子要好好辦好不好?好。雲豹怎麼樣掏空了?雲豹怎麼掏空了?臺元綠能我們關注一下資產這個案子要好好辦好第二個我要給你開張照片全國綠能綠能當然我們是高雷嘛可是綠能是不是變成一個貨源會變成一個黑金碧暗的一個貨源大會你看這張圖上面的陳秦玉落跑了臺元綠能這是在2000年的時候蔡英文總統要連任的時候"},{"start":6719.487,"end":6734.757,"text":"這個後援會上面陳祺毅參加了,現在落跑了。立洋建設的谷勝輝,這就是台南的八十八槍。他從台電的不法所得,檢查官請説說什麼。從台電要取得的不法所得,九十一億。"},{"start":6735.714,"end":6740.337,"text":"對對那這個就是要不只要踩煞車這個弊案還要更清楚好不好這個案子地洋建設這個案子裡面還牽扯到"},{"start":6756.823,"end":6759.044,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":6772.912,"end":6789.743,"text":"他光是在章兵工業區那個整個專案的開發到現在案子監察已經糾正了這個案子你們也要好好查有有我們一定要叫他要把所有的股權回復到可控制的狀況在右邊你看已經點了三個人你看開洋集團的蔡中榮跟右邊跟他的弟弟"},{"start":6791.898,"end":6820.098,"text":"這個也是這次台言綠能裡面都涉案的所以剛剛我一開始講了總統不是只有喊話說叫陳起義回來要嚴辦趕快把人抓到這是一個第二個經濟部的角色你們有提到三個解決方案嘛對不對可是更重要如果是眾所矚目的案子你們要好好辦好不好好接下來我看一下我看你們提了三個改善的這個方式我覺得應該是要肯定的可是次長你有沒有看到這個三個方式裡面少了一個正本清源"},{"start":6821.53,"end":6848.977,"text":"其實這三個方法都是重要的可是更重要是什麼?就是因為裡面的利潤利益太大嘛所以要這樣本簽也就是說讓那個不法所得第一個不要那麼高第一個他應該公開透明啊你讚不讚成?讚成我讚成我讚成公開透明這個最新的你看來你看一下這個案子是昨天最新的大家看倒數地方你看業者一口氣可以賺走台電多少錢?長達20年的再生能源的電費"},{"start":6850.612,"end":6876.793,"text":"四億四千多萬。你看,一個是中華、一個是中華、竹塘、一個是婚禮的二輪。那裡面出現了什麼?就是為什麼利潤會這麼大?我今天提一個非常具體的建議喔,這邊。利潤這麼大一個很重要的源頭就是賺過電價,太高了。對不對?你看一下,我整理資料給你看。"},{"start":6877.608,"end":6903.004,"text":"各國一開始都會在電價方面又會用頓過的方式可是後來慢慢就一定會退場嘛你現在的這個風電就是這樣子已經退場對不對變成競標嘛那太陽能已經發生這麼多問題了欸檢察官現在起訴的案子光是太陽能的喔至少有50件了五十件那為什麼就裡面那個利潤太高而且因為頓過這個電價到目前造成了一個很大的問題那看一下齁來"},{"start":6905.222,"end":6915.533,"text":"市長你看,上一張你看一下,你看一下德國的狀況德國是在2000年實施再生能源法他一開始跟我們台灣一樣喔也是採取短過電價,對不對?這邊13米嘛那給比較高的這個價格,比較好的這個價格嘛"},{"start":6918.581,"end":6936.379,"text":"那麽現在他當初裝的跟我們一樣啊那我們現在是產生了弊案你看人家後來德國市長成熟以後2017年他是修訂了11G2017就引入變成是競標了就是頓過店家是要退場的然後讓這個競標的機制進來來來次定你注意看沒關係沒關係你看日本日本是在2012年導入頓過這個制度"},{"start":6942.685,"end":6953.523,"text":"然後後來推動光電發展以後技術成熟以後日本為了降低成本他就開始從2017年引進禁標的旗幟本期今天為什麼要提出這個質詢"},{"start":6955.049,"end":6956.37,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":6979.967,"end":7005.62,"text":"至少有三個好處他若退場的話避免過高的利益導致綠電蟑螂橫行必斷重生這是第一個好處第二個會落實你剛剛三個方案裡面真正的公開透明公平競爭第三個台電欠錢欠價嘛虧損累累以後公開競標完之後他的價格就會降下來合理的價格所以他至少有三個好處那我現在具體的要求第一"},{"start":7006.994,"end":7022.732,"text":"一個禮拜內一個禮拜內你評估請經濟部評估什麼時候讓等過機制可以退場跟德國跟日本一樣轉變成是競標的機制你給我一個很具體的評估報告好不好現在光電沒有等過啦"},{"start":7023.952,"end":7026.373,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7051.172,"end":7070.378,"text":"提出你們的修正版本好來最後再看一下最後你這三個點裡面齁我肯定你們之前總統提過之後還有卓議院長說你要提出個解決方案你們提了三個點嘛可是一定要落實好不好我是嘉義人來我們看下一張嘉義人請給咱們發聲一下大寶這張這聽起來很傷心嘛對不對民眾那種無辜他已經跟街信政府已經存傾了齁"},{"start":7079.165,"end":7108.074,"text":"結果你看宮殿那一則在沒有跟村民取得共識之下你就開始去施工啊你看自己人多可憐委員這個案現在我自己會跟政府說這個案如果沒有跟地方居民溝通現在都已經是騙人在那邊沒有在動工一定要跟居民溝通而且居民的時候才可以再動工這個案我們有在追蹤對喔我們有在追蹤那個怪手司機給我們講你不讓開我就把你連死太可憐了吧這會不會太殘忍啊對啊"},{"start":7109.261,"end":7111.002,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7122.408,"end":7137.804,"text":"最後這五點我就不要再練了這五點都是整個很重要的改革的一個方案包括你怎麼確保一個協調機制要有效性這一共五個訴求你給我一個宿命就好了回去檢討大概兩個禮拜內給我好不好那你借我們三個禮拜好不好?給我們三個禮拜一個禮拜"},{"start":7139.506,"end":7143.687,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7165.731,"end":7169.172,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7187.619,"end":7200.806,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十七條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文"},{"start":7208.49,"end":7211.112,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7235.889,"end":7249.618,"text":"條例第12個閉案也會減少。好不好?三個禮拜給我方案。好,謝謝。謝謝張經理和委員。我們請進一步三個禮拜內給那個張經理和委員辦公室清楚的一個報告資料。我們接下來請鄭天才委員。好,主席、會委員。有請那個"},{"start":7266.974,"end":7280.919,"text":"條例第十三條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":7296.616,"end":7323.153,"text":"然後也修了這個個人資料保護法要明定要成立這個委員會對不對所以你們就先成立了籌備處是你們議定期程什麼時候要成立這個委員會給我們報告齁就是配套的修法跟組織法明年的就是上半年會期會送進來好"},{"start":7325.782,"end":7348.435,"text":"那這個部分,事實上如果按照宪判制第13號,這裡面提到這個主文,這是主文,主文然後這個,主文裡面,好當然裡面提到,好"},{"start":7352.793,"end":7380.753,"text":"你們提到說這個要擬定各自會的組織法嘛對不對是如果我們按照這個憲判制第13號的話其實他沒有說一定要成立機關啦他只有說國家亦有亦有以法律積極建制適當之組織啦組織所以你們現在把它成立委員會其實書發布已經布了"},{"start":7382.5,"end":7389.205,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7392.81,"end":7410.463,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第九條及第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文"},{"start":7416.377,"end":7420.041,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7432.398,"end":7440.665,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7459.132,"end":7487.298,"text":"應該是要朝這個方向去努力。我特別提到這個也要讓國發會的副主委還有經濟部次長你們要回去跟你們的分別跟你們的首長也就是主委跟這個部長因為他們尤其是企業界來的對不對企業界來的"},{"start":7488.629,"end":7510.156,"text":"你們要做一個很詳細的分析因為這個我們經濟部常務次長你是常務事務官出身的對不對副主委你是事務官還是政務官不管是政務還是常務我們要就這幾年"},{"start":7517.759,"end":7524.222,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7547.932,"end":7549.413,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":7564.775,"end":7588.432,"text":"台灣沒有生產能源需仰賴進口如果要防止地球暖化趨勢以及確保台灣的能源安全更應該考慮的是能源成本能源成本不應讓民眾無法負擔如果不放棄核二核三廠可以相對降低通膨這個跟經濟的發展都有關係"},{"start":7592.148,"end":7602.492,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7620.782,"end":7647.154,"text":"你對這樣的一個有什麼看法?針對那個童董事長這個他的意見我們當然是尊重啦因為每個人都有發表意見的那個但是如果是針對目前的一個核能電廠要嚴厲或是說再持續下去我們基本上還是要在一個是安全再來何非要可以處理要全民公司的條件下那至於對這些新核能的這樣的一個意見我們現在整個"},{"start":7650.034,"end":7666.284,"text":"政府是對新核能的技術持一個開放態度是可以來討論的。好,這樣了,因為時間也不多了。我們看一下,核四,核四花了多少錢?應該是3800多億。"},{"start":7670.626,"end":7677.45,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7700.017,"end":7725.339,"text":"四千多億那個也是三千多億加上力能再生能源經濟部你們花了多少錢再生能源還沒有算你們要算你回去算再打付給我你們去算到底補助了多少、編列了多少錢"},{"start":7726.667,"end":7730.59,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7760.851,"end":7775.006,"text":"所以這個部分就必須要去思考到底應該要怎麼樣要給你們的主委、給你們的部長做一個非常審慎的一個考量好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員"},{"start":7782.56,"end":7801.505,"text":"呃我們在等一下在那個邱志偉委員之後休息五分鐘現在是要呃陳玉珍委員跟陳昌明委員調換是不是OKOK那我們接下來請陳玉珍委員"},{"start":7811.787,"end":7819.152,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個衛福部陸委會時間限時衛福部陸委會喔等一下交通部國發會請主動上來請陸委會衛福部然後衛福部還有國發會國發會跟交通部等一下一起上來交通部謝謝因為今天本席所提的有關這個國際醫療特區我先請教陸委會"},{"start":7837.957,"end":7862.257,"text":"這個衛部你們覺得開放大陸人士到金門來看診是不是會讓臺澎金馬本戶大開?衛部怎麼看?衛部先來好了那個只要是那個來臺灣就醫的需求我們都是都是支持的嘛吼現在事實上是不是已經有大陸人士來臺灣看診了?就是在臺灣奔腦也有吧?那陸委會你回答"},{"start":7865.575,"end":7886.985,"text":"大陸人士到金門的醫院看診現在本來就有本來就是開放的嘛所以本來就有嘛現在就是已經有小三通可以到金門來看診嘛這個是現行政策沒錯吧所以開放大陸人士到金門看診現在有讓我們整個台灣島門戶大開已經讓那個人士大陸人士大舉進攻嗎變成那個木馬屠城了嗎現在發生了嗎現在有木馬屠城了嗎"},{"start":7889.466,"end":7893.808,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":7905.672,"end":7908.654,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案．一、審查：一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":7923.485,"end":7936.895,"text":"事會讓台澎金馬門戶大開。」然後還因此封了本人叫陳山貴說你要讓大多人士來金門看診讓金馬門戶大開所以我們現在已經相關部會已經直接打臉了好謝謝兩位接著我們請交通部跟國發會"},{"start":7941.232,"end":7955.378,"text":"來江部聽一下這國會昨天就知道題目了這個江部那個行政司嘛代司長好賴總統有說你看這句是不是賴總統說的中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬有沒有這句話賴總統有沒有這樣說"},{"start":7959.017,"end":7970.934,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次"},{"start":7977.658,"end":7994.294,"text":"總統沒有這樣說,中華民國的中華聯盟共和國不隸屬。你不知道,國會會,總統沒有這樣說。你也不敢說,你政務官也不敢說,事務官也不敢說。那些總統說話你們都不專心聽喔。中華民國的中華聯盟,我們是要問你贊不贊成,我是說總統沒有說過這句話。我只是想這個事實有沒有發生過。總統沒有說過這句話啦。"},{"start":8001.357,"end":8003.839,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":8010.526,"end":8016.027,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":8034.682,"end":8057.414,"text":"跟委員報告齁目前金門港它是國內三港那金門是國內港那金門跟大陸大陸跟中國大陸往來啊那這樣算是國際之間往來還是國內之間的往來你說一下交通部行政司法金門跟大陸現在廈門港有在往來了金門水頭港跟廈門港往來這個兩地這個之間往來是國際港還是國內港是國際之間往來還是國內之間往來金門跟廈門往來是國內的往來嗎你說你是國內港啊"},{"start":8063.274,"end":8065.858,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、"},{"start":8079.375,"end":8082.316,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":8104.304,"end":8107.606,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":8118.888,"end":8144.525,"text":"江埔你回去研究一下這題很難嗎那因為有這樣的通行辦法其實我們有相關的你告訴我是哪個港因為為什麼我要問這一題這麼重要我不是在考你政治題因為這關係經濟民生因為我今天修說要做這個離島經濟條例自由貿易港區交通部公務署財政部公務署公務署在嗎公務署上來的時候對不起主席再一分鐘就要了公務署快一點啦"},{"start":8145.866,"end":8165.602,"text":"這個根據自由貿易港區的規定喔為什麼要修理到經濟條例大家一定要理解根據自由因為我們基本想做自由貿易港區那現在台北高雄什麼等等地方都有做自由貿易港區因為他們是屬於國際港國務署你是不是告訴我金門港因為不是國際港所以所以不能做自由貿易港區對吧因為自由貿易港區要國際港對吧"},{"start":8169.989,"end":8176.173,"text":"自由貿易港區撤款條例是要在國際的通商口岸。對,要在國際的通商口岸嘛。那金門是不是呢?"},{"start":8177.233,"end":8179.135,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":8201.255,"end":8204.236,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":8229.667,"end":8256.298,"text":"來好最後一題啦對不起主席就是這一題啦就請問那個江部你跟我回答這個怎麼回答好啦我請江部回答就好了不然你幫我回答看戴總統說你支持不支持來這個跟委員報告其實我們在金門港部最近這五年會投了五十億你不要告訴我投資你告訴我我們要政策所以如果我們這樣子我們要申請你會自由賣港區江部你支持不支持"},{"start":8257.833,"end":8260.675,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":8285.726,"end":8295.724,"text":"條例第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13次全体委員會第13"},{"start":8309.065,"end":8336.898,"text":"主席您好我請連次長、經濟委員次長還有陸委會梁副主委梁副主委委員好哇剛剛上一位委員講得慷慨激昂我個人認為是這樣子國員自定法院當然是以國家利益為優先對不對以台灣優先"},{"start":8338.953,"end":8352.506,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":8362.631,"end":8388.328,"text":"所以國會議員在國會裏面致電法令我想全國民眾要看對這法定下來對國家是長治久安是佛國利民還是破國殃民還是造成國安的破口國安的危機我想大家都可以討論來我們看離島競爭條例第十八條之一川普重新上台美中競爭態勢非常明顯貿易"},{"start":8393.694,"end":8418.821,"text":"這個國防甚至人才各方面的競爭這個非常的明確這個架構我想台灣跟美國利益是一致全國反中全球反中聯盟台灣是其中一個重要的關鍵如果按照第十十八條之一如果按照十八條之一這個修正草案通過的話"},{"start":8420.768,"end":8425.251,"text":"會否違反憲法第107條?憲法107條國際貿易政策及社會財政經濟事項由中央立法。這憲法。那如果18條之一"},{"start":8442.113,"end":8470.07,"text":"允許中國企業參與離島建設經濟活動且不受採購法兩岸聯盟關係條例的限制。這個會不會違反憲法第11屆七條?我們陸委會的立場我再重申一次不管是本島還是離島只要在中華民國領域範圍之內和對岸的往來就要受兩岸條例的規範我所謂的往來是指人員流動"},{"start":8471.651,"end":8499.961,"text":"貨物流動、資金流動、專業證照的認定等等所以剛剛陳玉珍委員他有提到說那金門到底可不可以按照這個自由貿易港區設置條例來成立一個自由貿易港區在陸委會的立場可以或不可以都不是重點重點是我們現在的自由貿易港區就算你設了"},{"start":8501.175,"end":8519.995,"text":"你的資金往來投資人員往來等等還是要受兩岸人民關係條例的規範並沒有辦法逃脫這樣所以所以對陸委會來說立場是很清楚的那至於委員你剛才講的就是現在的金門道就是說現在"},{"start":8521.398,"end":8541.813,"text":"國際大勢到底怎麼發展?」他其實也跟...會給國際社會釋放出不對的訊息。那種說我們民眾黨在執政還跟中國有密切的經貿的往來。全世界都逃出中國。對不對?在中國是很大的一個曝險。"},{"start":8544.358,"end":8569.229,"text":"所以這個跟中國經貿合作已經不是這個世界經貿的潮流那我們要逆潮流行美國人會怎麼看?國際社會怎麼看?主委我覺得台灣這幾年來的發展就是你怎麼樣跟國際接軌走自己的道路那對岸的而不是跟中國接軌嘛那你知道你如果這個條文轟過離島的經貿會完全是依賴中國"},{"start":8575.413,"end":8597.461,"text":"這個是可能的發展那其實對岸他並沒有避諱他想要做什麼他沒有避諱他的企圖心比如說他要做這個兩岸發展融合示範區所以我覺得這個示範區會變成一個國安的破口甚至形成國安的危機那個林社長從經濟部主管機關你對這個相關經濟活動是你主管"},{"start":8602.403,"end":8628.82,"text":"那你覺得這個如果18條之一通過怎麼辦因為現在在有一個叫做事辦金門馬祖澎湖跟大陸地區通行實施辦法這個已經有相關公案而且還有一些彈性的措施那其實應該是先從這個東西裡面去跟這些金門馬祖跟澎湖這些而不是朝向修法嘛 對不對先去討論說目前這樣的做有沒有自然難行的有自然難行嗎"},{"start":8630.482,"end":8635.191,"text":"現在是沒有法令有制裁難行那他立法動機到底為何啊?意圖到底是什麼?你說說看"},{"start":8642.298,"end":8647.241,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":8671.011,"end":8693.617,"text":"這個如果按照第十三條之一之二允許中國的醫療人員在離島之夜這部分有沒有違反醫療法跟文報告他這個部分裡面那個外國那個外國醫事人是要經過我們的拿到我們執照才可以在台灣職業對啊包括離島嘛對不對"},{"start":8695.205,"end":8717.743,"text":"條例第十三條、第十二條條文修正草案案。此方說不需要符合我國議事資格。你們同意嗎?違反醫療法了。違反醫療法。再看,如果按照中國國民黨通過的產號版本,你離島連將會從7億增加到69億,基本上從28億到139億,增加了4倍。"},{"start":8725.859,"end":8744.406,"text":"事備然後呢你按照第18條如果按照這個版本不受政府採購法跟相關兩岸人民關係條例規定欸會不會違反相關包括政府採購法17條兩岸人民關係條例兩岸條例29條剛剛梁副主委說了都已經違反了嘛對不對副主委"},{"start":8752.092,"end":8755.594,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":8781.639,"end":8782.232,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":9095.538,"end":9096.357,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":9186.294,"end":9187.705,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9254.521,"end":9279.274,"text":"繼續開會請陳超明委員質詢首先有請我們國會的彭副主委還有我們陸委會的梁副主委梁副主委"},{"start":9286.408,"end":9293.912,"text":"條例第十八條條文修正草案,陳玉珍委員提出來,他為了促進離島的經濟及產業的發展,指定地區設立離島駐域貿易試案區,"},{"start":9309.244,"end":9337.79,"text":"但是我剛剛聽到我們執政黨、民眾黨的立委一面的堅決、一面的反對。我在這邊常常想以抗中、反中來保台講了幾十年。但是台灣是一個自由進步、發達的一個國家。我不知道兩位、彭副主委跟梁副主委你的看法是怎樣。"},{"start":9340.273,"end":9366.679,"text":"你說一下你是反對到底跟委員報告因為這個有關這個離島建設條例要設立自由貿易港區的問題在於還有一個更高位階的中央政府的職權然後我想還是要依循中央的政策在兩岸條例的架構下來跟大陸條治地的架構來講官司的答話兩位主委您看法"},{"start":9368.288,"end":9370.467,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9371.806,"end":9398.78,"text":"我用不官式的答話來答一下好了我想陳玉珍委員當然是為了金門的發展那他希望說透過這樣設立一個自由貿易區他能夠讓金門能夠吸引更多的大陸來的投資大陸來的人員大陸來的勞工或是大陸來的醫生等等這樣子"},{"start":9399.84,"end":9406.226,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":9426.042,"end":9437.01,"text":"條例第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":9451.021,"end":9470.632,"text":"另外兩岸的關係目前非常的嚴峻緊張還沒有動刀動子彈的時候我們就以經濟自由冒機跟他打一場仗阿你們不敢接受挑戰把雙門關起來等一下怕他們人員進來怕他們物流進來怕"},{"start":9474.059,"end":9500.973,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正"},{"start":9502.458,"end":9516.977,"text":"最後一句話因為這個問題問起來就時間又久了你記得中國一句口話永遠記得千金買屋萬金買出兵不要隨地的挑釁"},{"start":9518.223,"end":9543.08,"text":"因為這一場我也不曉得未來怎麼樣跟你們的總統的好朋友同時前董事長說現在台灣要去馬祖廟去拜拜知道未來的前途在哪裡其實你要展現台灣人的自信不要碰到中國大陸就一面的汙衊人的進步也有長處美國也有長處稍微站好一點"},{"start":9545.455,"end":9570.345,"text":"好了啦,這個問題談了很久,給你一個創新的觀念。媽祖保佰佰保佰勒,誇哉一瓶贏啊。 再來。 我想跟我說一句,那個現在大陸的海警船每個月至少有五到六次會進入金門的淨限制水域,對金門來說是一個很大的壓力,對我們的海巡、海防來說是一個很大的壓力。 對我們當然是壓力,海軍嘛。"},{"start":9570.765,"end":9594.938,"text":"自由貿易起來就不會不一定這樣你不要用這個這個是兩岸情勢關係緊張所有話為什麼以前都沒有現在很多你再多講大家對這個問題再辯論得越多我告訴你實際的觀點我是告訴物質主義我們實在看兩邊的情形不要看到這樣的情形這樣這樣好嗎?好啊好啊兩天再來論這個問題"},{"start":9599.639,"end":9614.591,"text":"條例第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13"},{"start":9616.434,"end":9643.002,"text":"關於我們離岸婚禮的國產化。國產化本來政府在輔導一個四季崗、一個中崗。中崗一共投資了64億,結果一無所成。害死他的協力廠商。我叫你們調查報告會沒有人來報告。你這是關關相為。雖然它是屬於民間公司,但是你換關股是最大的。"},{"start":9645.067,"end":9653.721,"text":"我現在說這個事情我還在問國安委所以國安委投資六十四天好像輕輕鬆鬆就沒有了我怎麼還緊張"},{"start":9655.789,"end":9675.676,"text":"還有一點,你硬的做不起來,只有吃軟的,還要主持一個力能公司去賣力能發電,再生能源賣給企業。哇,我不知道你怎麼比較照顧他,一個十幾天就能做起來,你做不起來,南部一些協力廠商給他害得很疼痛。"},{"start":9676.616,"end":9685.199,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":9702.014,"end":9728.041,"text":"章章網友已經講了,治愈化已經是了,免驚,美國就不遵守啦,不提我啊,讓他遵守他拐丟。其實這裡面我覺得問題重重很多,這一點我希望有一個報告出來。還有一點,現在啊你們一直在講,要電,要台積電,啊不要有電廠,不過跟我們討論也比較思維。"},{"start":9730.646,"end":9754.969,"text":"我現在說,譬如要做水庫,現在剛好太陽天下了很多,大家都說不清水,就忘了清水是痛苦。安裝水庫做不起來。第一,合理的補充。第二,你水庫現在做下去,會有發電廠。發電廠你讓地方的政府去公辦民營,有時間去打,今天人照顧得好,其實很可行。"},{"start":9755.799,"end":9759.485,"text":"阿您現在說要開發電廠!吼!民眾反對!其農林泰的鐵航工幫給什麼什麼收入阿無?"},{"start":9766.071,"end":9789.717,"text":"來,地方政府去協調好,做好了,會容然公辦民營,台積電做莊,你們不是台積電,你們台電做莊為什麼?你們好幾家發電公司都是你們投資的很差可能你公家的這樣子,你再做又有困難啊你怎麼不想個辦法去改變,一定要死守這樣"},{"start":9791.518,"end":9802.157,"text":"再來,我又跟你講,你跟農業部長,現在工量收購,十幾年沒企業,現在人家要企一個六塊,這樣要死要哭了。"},{"start":9804.414,"end":9809.137,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":9823.467,"end":9827.369,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":9839.773,"end":9859.124,"text":"我們這邊有時候下雨,有時候沒有下雨,那發展不是天然發展,那好像科幻。跟水利市的心情,就讓他們開心,就讓他們有煩惱在。我是河川裡面有一些溪流,五公尺,那邊你把它拿來,就不會。"},{"start":9860.245,"end":9887.116,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。你倆就很好推展。你們去衝到南部、衝到未看好。大家都很反感。跟你們說整個不爽嘞。你們不在地方一直不知道。如果你這個好好規劃,我會跟你講規劃。我會跟你們講怎麼溝通。這些問題你們官內都是高高在上。沒有到地方基層了解民眾的聲音。真的改進加強。"},{"start":9888.016,"end":9888.276,"text":"請黃國昌委員執行"},{"start":9921.667,"end":9942.076,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條文修正草案、第十八條文"},{"start":9943.22,"end":9946.603,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":9963.902,"end":9986.27,"text":"台灣綠能的事情最近有特定立場的媒體我是不好意思稱綠色媒體出來幫我們的前行政院長蘇貞昌歌功頌德擦脂抹粉說他三年多前就知道了三年多前就知道採取了什麼具體的作為你知不知道"},{"start":9987.402,"end":10004.75,"text":"欸我知道是委員之前也有在關心這個問題所以我們在112年我現在在請教你的啊不是我有沒有關心啊我們在112年就已經把這個案我們主動去送檢調所以到112年才送嘛112年你們為什麼會送知不知道原委不知道"},{"start":10008.755,"end":10036.297,"text":"是朱貞昌下令送的嗎?不是嘛!一百一十二年、二零二三年你們為什麼會送?因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們的前委員陳婉蕙委員提出質詢啊所以你們經濟部才送嘛我們有去秀卿的廟場你送的報告二零二三年編密件到二零二四年我再度去函的時候又不是密件了因為不是密件嘛所以我才可以拿在手上叫做普通件"},{"start":10037.239,"end":10061.808,"text":"事長,你們經濟部啊,送出去的報告你看過沒有?我沒看過。你沒有看過嗎?那我跟次長報告。你順便回去跟部長報告。請部長回去好好看一看啊。你們經濟部2023年送出去的東西啊,有沒有遵照賴總統的指示?有沒有確實在做?我為什麼敢這樣講?"},{"start":10063.39,"end":10091.924,"text":"因為我這個報告看完了以後我覺得你們經濟部放水阿放得很嚴重阿放水放得很嚴重阿薄薄的三張紙薄薄的三張紙阿紙處理了什麼台元綠能涉及那麼多弊案你們經濟部一直跟社會講我們很認真阿我們移送減掉阿但是你移送出去的這三張紙阿"},{"start":10093.38,"end":10119.205,"text":"經得起社會的檢驗嗎?經得起社會的檢驗嗎?我為什麼這樣講啊來我們具體來看啊不是只有嘉義異族啊有問題啊台南七股也有問題啊台南七股的犯罪手法跟嘉義異族的犯罪手法如出一冊啊什麼叫如出一冊肥肉大的錢給外面的白手套賺"},{"start":10121.055,"end":10150,"text":"我們國家的台研綠能啊不要說吃骨頭啊大概分到一點點渣渣人家拿到的合約是上億啊我們台研綠能拿到的是一年分146萬你看到這樣子的合約經濟部當初所謂要貫徹要查綠能的弊案要清查台研綠能裡面的問題為什麼沒有清查到這一塊請教次長"},{"start":10152.448,"end":10167.039,"text":"這個我不清楚這個你不清楚嘛好沒有關係一個禮拜之內書面回覆請台言含附為什麼經濟部的調查報告當初沒有報告這塊是要放水嗎"},{"start":10170.122,"end":10196.863,"text":"還是台南有有利的人士不敢動你們不會放水來來來我帶次長看一下契約啊我講話向來有憑有據啊來看一下我們外面的白手套簽的約是什麼拿到上億元的約是說你這個光電業者跟我這個白手套簽約我其中一個服務項目是什麼我服務項目是我砍高啊"},{"start":10198.598,"end":10203.041,"text":"可以幫你負責拿到跟台研綠能的合約。哇!"},{"start":10203.041,"end":10203.261,"text":"這家鴻輝很厲害喔!"},{"start":10203.261,"end":10204.642,"text":"這家鴻輝非常的厲害喔!竟然還可以跟人家保證喔!"},{"start":10204.642,"end":10205.683,"text":"砍高啊!"},{"start":10205.683,"end":10206.443,"text":"可以跟台研綠能簽約喔!結果搞了半天什麼?"},{"start":10206.443,"end":10207.624,"text":"嚴重的利益輸送。經濟部的調查報告為什麼一個字都沒有提啊?"},{"start":10226.308,"end":10246.126,"text":"我老實講啦經濟部目前在這個案子裡面實際上面的表現是說一套做一套一個禮拜之內書面回覆告訴我這件事情你們當初為什麼沒有移送沒有處理請台研綠能解釋清楚可不可以來第二個次長你知不知道台研綠能從2023年到2024年的現在虧了多少錢"},{"start":10252.472,"end":10257.274,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":10281.598,"end":10307.635,"text":"我最近看阿2023年到現在今年的第三季喔不到兩年虧損超過4億阿虧損超過4億阿台元綠能的資本額是多少3.71億虧完了阿要破產阿台元綠能這家公司經濟部的政策立場還要不要繼續持續下去"},{"start":10309.091,"end":10335.257,"text":"這我們內部有在做檢討阿檢討的結果是什麼現在還沒有送上來是不是台元的母公司有建議經濟部說這個公司現在已經爛到底了把他收一收經濟部有沒有收到這樣的訊息還沒有還沒有看到這個確定沒有這樣的訊息台元綠能接下來要怎麼做經濟部要檢討到什麼時候會有答案還要檢討多久"},{"start":10340.087,"end":10355.653,"text":"這個因為我們還是內部再檢討一下好不好沒有關係啊一樣還要檢討多久一個禮拜之內書面回覆好我們書面回覆主席站起來了我不要耽誤其他委員的時間但我只講一句話啦賴清德總統對社會的宣誓啊你們經濟部啊"},{"start":10357.102,"end":10358.583,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":10375.103,"end":10397.144,"text":"至少是我們主動送給檢調的我剛就跟你講阿你2023年叫你主動喔陳婉蕙站在這邊質詢你們才送的啦你要騙我不知道喔阿你送要送的不乾不淨的送三張紙要笑死人喔那我就今天就很具體的問嘛台南七股的案子你什麼時候送的你又回答不出來應該是9月3號"},{"start":10399.462,"end":10402.825,"text":"條例第九條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":10430.99,"end":10435.672,"text":"中午不休息延長會議時間。現在請鄭政權委員發言。鄭政權委員 主席好。我想請一下經濟部連次長、國發會的彭副主委、我們的各支保護委員會籌備處的李主任。"},{"start":10463.054,"end":10478.699,"text":"次長好,我首先先問一下李主任好了啦,那個次長我放最後面再來問你齁。那個我想請問一下李主任齁,那個2022年底發生的2300萬筆國倫的戶政資料外洩案齁,請問你有沒有掌握這件事情?"},{"start":10480.151,"end":10483.996,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":10498.533,"end":10500.415,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10519.311,"end":10545.245,"text":"15萬元去買的那個2300萬筆的資料確實其實是台灣的護證資料你知道這個事情嗎?是,就是那個部分的話媒體也有在報導那我想請問一下針對這樣的一個部分那麼在洩露這個個資的一個嫌疑人坦白說在民間只要有洩露個資的時候一般就會被處罰對不對那我們在這一次的時候有很多委員提案"},{"start":10545.945,"end":10574.202,"text":"可是我看到整個那個我們籌備處這邊的回應的時候基本上都是希望等到我們主管機關成立之後就明年成立之後再來做進一步的演繹 對不對那我在想說這個情況我就覺得很混亂就是現在立法委員他要提這個案子可是你們這邊也希望說能夠等到整個明年8月1號之後再來大幅的一個調整是這樣的一個情況嗎"},{"start":10575.233,"end":10585.996,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期經濟委員會及第十一條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期經濟委員會及第十一條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期經濟委員會及第十一條條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期經濟委員會及第十一條條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期經濟委員會及第十一條條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期經濟委員會及第十一條條條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期經濟委員會及第十一條條"},{"start":10600.549,"end":10623.226,"text":"所以說你在明年8月1號之後你要大幅的一個來演繹來修法這個部分的時候你們會不會把公部門如果洩漏各自的情況的處罰把它放進去跟委員報告未來的監管的話就是公務機關跟非公務機關它是一個統籌性的一個監管的一個炒作方向就是為了我們會來列入那個修法的演繹"},{"start":10623.646,"end":10626.288,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":10642.195,"end":10659.13,"text":"那我們希望之後如果公部門洩漏個資的部分的時候必須要有人被懲處我覺得這很重要否則大家都不用負責任而洩漏個資很大一部分都可能都是從公部門出去的2300萬的個資出去的時候後續會怎麼用"},{"start":10660.68,"end":10668.204,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":10685.074,"end":10712.836,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案件公布出來,他就覺得為什麼他們這麼小,然後他們的個資一樣洩漏?主任你有沒有知道這件事情?新聞的報導有之前有...你有注意到這個事情對不對?那你覺得這些小朋友的個資他們是從哪裡洩漏出去的?當然有可能是在學校端就有把這個資訊出去做...學校端就洩漏出去了嗎?有沒有輪負責任?"},{"start":10714.895,"end":10731.801,"text":"對目前假如說以當然現在還是分管會由教育部這邊會來做中央目的事業組員來做查賬OK那這個部分我要特別講一下因為現在連小朋友都有個資的意識他們覺得他們可能從小一入學的時候資料系就被賣出去了"},{"start":10732.661,"end":10738.426,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":10759.844,"end":10766.866,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":10789.113,"end":10794.574,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":10820.254,"end":10833.693,"text":"這個我要確認因為我們有推估齁我們在能源署有推估針對整個用電需求量如果把AI或半導體這相關的投資進來會成長多少我們那時候是有成長差不多這2.5到2.8左右OK"},{"start":10836.036,"end":10862.015,"text":"那麼台電這邊說法的時候我就說因為就是因為半導體跟AI需要的一個部分所以在未來十年大概需要增加這麼多的一個用電跟你講的數字是符合的那麼在1151萬千瓦這個部分的時候我們回推現在大家因為他說這個部分大概會增加20%到30%那我就回推的部分就現在的我們的一個"},{"start":10863.576,"end":10884.207,"text":"負債量大概在5755萬千瓦到3836萬千瓦之間那我查了昨天的一個數字確實也差不多在3000多萬千瓦確實是符合這個狀態那我這邊我就再回去看了一下這台電發言人這邊講出來的情況他說我們今年再生能源的比例會佔到12.1%是這樣子的一個數字嗎"},{"start":10886.288,"end":10889.571,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":10912.99,"end":10919.379,"text":"未來十年應該再生能源我們現在再推估的話太陽光電應該如果從現在到2033的話應該會增加到4GW然後那個離岸風電應該會整體齁"},{"start":10927.99,"end":10946.166,"text":"因為台電這邊給的是一個整體的數字我只是看到這數字裡頭我其實一直在玩文字遊戲為什麼?因為他直接表示說我們大型機組未來十年要增加的量是1786萬千瓦然後我們再生能源這邊的時候就可以產生每年多200萬到300萬千瓦"},{"start":10948.388,"end":10951.012,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":10966.433,"end":10986.202,"text":"這個數字這個是裝置容量不是不是他講的是負載量這個是裝置容量所以我就覺得台電跟經濟部這邊一直在玩一個文字遊戲因為裝置容量這邊會有一個容量因素的部分那這個部分到底要出來多少所以你說這個1151萬千瓦是裝置容量嗎"},{"start":10990.004,"end":10992.006,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11012.907,"end":11015.469,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11033.169,"end":11035.33,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11049.737,"end":11051.339,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11077.287,"end":11093.383,"text":"我們接下來請李玉玲委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席請國發會的彭副主委請彭副主委委員好"},{"start":11094.501,"end":11123.601,"text":"副主委我們離島地區的醫療資源非常欠缺大家都知道的那尤其是他們有重大疾病的時候都要後送到我們台灣本島來就醫所以他們會發生了很多像他們的那個這個交通費啊或者住宿費這對民眾來講就是非常沉重的負擔所以我們才希望說能夠增加這個整個金門的醫療的資源可以給他們不要有後送或者緊急情況發生的時候的遺憾的事情"},{"start":11124.221,"end":11132.843,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":11155.609,"end":11164.271,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11183.174,"end":11185.936,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11203.5,"end":11207.004,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11219.301,"end":11234.404,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。 »: 是有的。現在衛福部的那個IDS的計畫其實連江、金門、澎湖有落實在執行嗎?專門醫生他們駐點然後輪值進去。這個部分我們希望我們這個身為這個國發會算是一個主管機關對於這個增加金門的這部分的成為國際醫療特區醫院這個部分"},{"start":11249.266,"end":11250.407,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":11275.72,"end":11302.987,"text":"他說國際醫院也是離島的建設計畫啊?對,因為離島條例裡面目的世界主管機關還是由各部會這邊他們在主責。可是你是統籌的嘛。統籌的,所以你的支部支持有這麼困難回答嗎?還是有什麼問題?你直接說好了。好,那我們衛福部的專門委員"},{"start":11304.804,"end":11319.613,"text":"條例第十一條和委員報告,其實像剛剛委員所關切的離島的醫療資源的部分,我們已經有在推動醫學中心的資源計畫,就是他們輪派醫生在那邊倡訪,那第二個部分我們也希望說在地化的醫療"},{"start":11320.293,"end":11323.415,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11343.339,"end":11346.161,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":11365.074,"end":11367.635,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":11383.504,"end":11406.194,"text":"有困難嗎?跟委員報告齁,其實我們在那個110年修那個醫院醫療機構設置那個擴充許可辦法以後,已經有把那個國際醫療病床融入在裡面了。好,我們希望你們積極來重視我們金門離島所有民眾的健康好不好?好,謝謝。我接下來要請的就是我們各自會的李主任。請各自會李主任。謝謝,那其他的就請回,謝謝。"},{"start":11414.053,"end":11418.957,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11435.794,"end":11436.635,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":11451.717,"end":11456.36,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審"},{"start":11470.427,"end":11474.949,"text":"已經一年了,到明年的八月兩年的時間籌備會時間實在是很久了我們希望能夠如期來完成為什麼要這麼提呢?尤其是去年在我們立法院外面的時候有一些陳炕的事件發生不肖的人士就利用我們手機的基地台來進行數據的比對利用手機的基本資料進行行動的軌跡跟我們政治傾向來做一個調查"},{"start":11499.901,"end":11524.219,"text":"這方面外泄出去的所以我們想請教一下未來我們的各自法的修正是不是可以增加通信紀錄不得收集、處理、利用可不可以?跟長的報告就是現在我們先把這個委員會先把它生出來當然各自法的主管機關是這個委員會現在法是這麼寫我們可以增加這個"},{"start":11525.4,"end":11545.472,"text":"對通訊資料不能蒐集利用處理。」 我覺得這部分就是要併進來讓整個委員會做一個全盤的修正。 那剛剛趙偉所講的這個內容的話我覺得到時候應該也是一個併入。 所以我們應該保護著民眾他的通訊資料不要被外洩然後被盜用啊。 是不是?"},{"start":11545.472,"end":11546.493,"text":"是。 現在很多你看到網路"},{"start":11547.313,"end":11553.036,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":11581.724,"end":11591.872,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11609.761,"end":11611.742,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":11631.404,"end":11651.77,"text":"市長記者這個到底SRF到底是什麼樣的東西啊他是再生能源他是綠能嗎我想這個聯合國對於再生能源的定義是說補充率高於消耗率的東西叫再生能源那石油煤天然氣這東西他當然消耗率高於補充率嘛就當然不是再生能源"},{"start":11652.31,"end":11653.751,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11667.011,"end":11692.387,"text":"我建立這個主管機關我先跟委員報告這一塊有關我們是遵循那個國際的規範還有那個環境部這邊的那個定義那我們現在這一次在我們再生能源發展條例我們已經把這一塊外界在講的一般的那個廢棄物這一塊我們已經把它拿掉有嗎等一下我給你討論到法條的部分我先問定義嘛"},{"start":11694.145,"end":11698.529,"text":"報告委員那我們有我們的資源循環署有梁副組長他是主管這個廢棄物請他來說明"},{"start":11706.031,"end":11710.592,"text":"內容物的話就是它的來源是廢棄物是屬於高熱值的廢棄物什麼樣的廢棄物高熱值高熱值的廢棄物比方說像我們塑膠"},{"start":11730.509,"end":11759.002,"text":"木質類、塑膠類等等、釋然性的、熱質高的這些東西⋯⋯ 主長謝謝沒關係我是要先了解我們到底SRF裡面的內容是什麼東西當然高熱質這個我們都很清楚那我想剛剛次長提到說經濟部把這個所謂再生能源SRF把它排除在短購費率之外嘛但是如果我們回到法條本身今天在看所謂再生能源發展條例裡面定義什麼是再生能源的這部分"},{"start":11760.219,"end":11782.63,"text":"你們在這個修正條文裡面當然排除了他不是用所謂的獎勵補助不是用輪功費率但是在再生能源的那個幾個條字裡面他一樣啊他一樣還是放在再生能源的這個相字裡面啊雖然他沒有被排除在再生能源之外啊他還是在法律的條文第1裡面他依然是不是還是依然屬於再生能源"},{"start":11785.753,"end":11803.604,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文"},{"start":11807.927,"end":11809.009,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":11825.131,"end":11852.21,"text":"或未來其他的不管是民間企業他在執行業務上面來講他也屬於再生能源的時候大家沒辦法區分清楚到底你剛提到的像這種生殖能的東西跟紙和塑膠它是不是同一件事情在你的定義裡面它應該是不同的事情才對啊所以今天既然要講法條所以我們回到法條本身是不是希望說把這個再生能源在SIF這件事應該把它排除在外而不是繼續放在所謂再生能源的定義裡面"},{"start":11854.138,"end":11870.914,"text":"公委報告因為再生能源有兩種啦一種是可能就是需要憑證的一種不需要的齁那你現在說有兩種吧那有兩種是不是應該區分出來那我們這邊連結到的都是最後要到拿到那個憑證的那一關好沒關係這個後續再提報告給我那最後一件事情喔因為時間不夠了"},{"start":11872.535,"end":11898.023,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、關於砍樹、種電的問題。再生能源條例第一條就寫清楚為推廣再生能源利用是要降低溫室氣體排放改善環境品質來增進所謂國家永續發展但是我們看到實務上很多地方包含說最近新聞報導都有報導不管是台湯還是各地方都在砍樹種電砍樹之後蓋的這個綠電蓋的是光電板我想問一下經濟部的立場或是也問一下環境部立場砍完樹再去"},{"start":11898.783,"end":11917.151,"text":"作光電這件事情它屬於再生能源發展條例的獎勵或優惠措施嗎?它符合這個條件嗎?如果你再生能源條例第一條的開中名的定義就是說我是為了降低碳排為了永續發展結果你是去把樹砍掉之後然後再蓋光電板那這件事情跟再生能源條例的第一條的意思有沒有違背?"},{"start":11918.811,"end":11944.467,"text":"這個應該要有前提啦因為有一些能工造林它的其實本身的樹木如果離市林向不好那其實本身的稀碳功能是不足的那你們評估過本來的稀碳本來它就是農地所以如果說在做一些比較生態環境保衛比較好的充分的規劃下其實有一部分是可以拿來設置光電射好沒關係你們要推但是你們還是應該把這個"},{"start":11946.048,"end":11950.57,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":11981.872,"end":11986.874,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。 請經濟部連次長、能源署、游署長。次長、署長,十月中的時候經濟部有公告,再生能源發展條例修正了再生能源發電設備的範圍。您剛剛沒有老實講出這個部分。其中排除了利用或處理國內一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物轉換為"},{"start":12007.461,"end":12014.623,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、�"},{"start":12035.915,"end":12063.708,"text":"國際上的我們再搜尋資料給委員不過國際上我們針對這些像農業廢棄物生殖能這部分大家是採認的但是包含廢塑膠橡膠等等這部分的一般在國際上不採認它為再生能源問題就來了問題就來了既然這些國家都只採用生物質的廢棄物料源那為什麼經濟部這次的草案修正沒有一併修正再生能源發展條例第三條第一項第一款的再生能源定義"},{"start":12064.688,"end":12075.998,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一般廢棄物及一般失業廢棄物為再生能源範圍。你只是在第十一款法利用一般廢棄物和失業廢棄物的SRF排除在再生能源的發電設備而已。"},{"start":12079.45,"end":12095.077,"text":"那你自己的立法說明寫得非常清楚國際上只承認這個生物質才能算是再生能源你們講這麼清楚然後不願意面對把再生能源的這個定義弄得更嚴謹你繞道去處理這個發電設備我剛剛程旭就緩緩委員發言發電設備你本末導致投機取巧"},{"start":12102.912,"end":12105.335,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12120.855,"end":12122.718,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12137.598,"end":12141.159,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、�"},{"start":12167.001,"end":12187.179,"text":"所以我認為經濟部在沒有交代清楚到底你燒塑膠你剛剛等了很久才回答燒橡膠為什麼不會危害人體健康之前他們是不是不應該被記錄再生能源發展設備就好而是連病網連頓購都不應該甚至燒了還要處罰欸市長你剛剛也避重就輕啊"},{"start":12192.5,"end":12194.78,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12223.767,"end":12242.579,"text":"這個他拿來當作SRF燒的時候現在的相關的規定已經是等同歐盟的規定了。本席在上一期我就提出這個草案喔要求明文將塑膠、橡膠、金屬材質等廢棄物排除在再生能源定義上他們不是再生能源他們不是綠能更不應該拿來發電這才是面對SRF的議題應該有的這個負責任態度請問署長跟署長"},{"start":12251.064,"end":12261.307,"text":"你們要不要重新檢討這次的修正草案不要只不要只繞道只處理發電設備重新檢討什麼叫再生能源可以嗎你既然引用了國際間的資料嗎你引用部分嘛你引用一部分嘛你處理發電設備不處理"},{"start":12276.371,"end":12277.392,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":12303.669,"end":12305.714,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12312.141,"end":12337.514,"text":"長士你好,我今天主要是跟你請教一下有關除能廠的問題。我們知道太陽能光電是國家現在一直在發展這一塊,太陽能板的問題還沒有解決,現在有一個新的問題要出來,就是說除能廠。目前高雄、屏東、台南這些除能廠其實地方都一直在抗爭,那我們知道"},{"start":12338.314,"end":12357.131,"text":"你要發展綠能你如果沒有儲能廠那等於是空談你前面的太陽能板的轉換率提的再高沒有儲能廠一切也是沒有任何意義所以儲能廠還是一個必須搭配到至少這個綠能一個很重要的東西嘛尤其是太陽能光電"},{"start":12358.092,"end":12379.262,"text":"那我來提幾個啦就是鳳山的那個牛超浦的儲能場他簽約了不到一個月然後馬上就抗爭那鳳山文華裡有一個離最近的住家只有三公尺的儲能場然後那個市府也要求他遷移那林園鄉有一個儲能場的計畫那居民馬上就拉布條抗議"},{"start":12380.242,"end":12398.48,"text":"大寮區的那個設廠的案子也被居民在議會總質詢的時候去陳擬那屏東的林園鄉的村民他們去年也在指控這個除能業者根本沒有完成土地變更就施工那這麼多的問題"},{"start":12400.197,"end":12427.883,"text":"我現在想說到現在為止所有的問題都還是用行政命令在解決嘛還沒有一個專法出來是不是這樣跟委員報告有關儲能部分現在確實是透過各部會的相關的執法跟規則或指引在做處理那我們在這一次的電液法的修正草案裡面我們已經把儲能列為一個特定電力設施那這個在草案裡面我們在做檢討可是可是你看"},{"start":12428.723,"end":12455.421,"text":"已經推了那麼久了綠能搞了那麼久結果到現在除能廠的專法都沒有出來那我提一個就是說現在業者申請這個設置除能廠地方政府他只是一個用地的審查那其他呢那些機電的設備啦消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局那我想問一下難道這個除能廠他最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎"},{"start":12457.079,"end":12483.152,"text":"各位委員報告現在跟委員報告就現行的話就包括土地使用的部分有地方政府把關然後有關於設備的安全以及這個整場所的這個安全的部分會有標準局這邊有規定那另外針對消防的部分那個內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引那現在就是用這種的部會合作的方式在做儲能廠的設置那未來在我們的電業法修正之後所以你看喔你剛講的就跟我剛講一模一樣嘛"},{"start":12483.752,"end":12511.749,"text":"你今天儲能廠的使用最終變成是由經濟部標準局來管欸這個還蠻奇怪的那再來你剛說到那個消防的部分我也覺得有一個很大的問題啊現行的適用的法規是內政部消防署提升儲能系統消防安全管理指引它的規範是for 20千瓦的儲能廠但是呢我們現在以那個那個那個現行的規劃的"},{"start":12513.03,"end":12529.075,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案、條例第十三條及第十四條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條條文修正草案、條例第十八條及第十八條條條文修"},{"start":12529.687,"end":12533.131,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12550.93,"end":12554.291,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12577.617,"end":12606.789,"text":"他的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統但是我們現在儲能廠的設置以那個牛超普是170百萬所以是原本法院他所針對的20千瓦的8500倍那如果一個8500倍的那個容量的儲能廠你還是用在原本的那個消防指引我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧"},{"start":12607.847,"end":12626.485,"text":"那你光是你一個儲能的裡面的鋰電池的光是鋰電池的用量那他就跟以前遠遠的不同嘛那你用同一套標準這個是不是有問題吼那這是一個麻煩你們要注意那這個我也跟消防署講過但目前我還沒有得到任何的回應"},{"start":12627.711,"end":12629.892,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12651.678,"end":12654.679,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12673.496,"end":12697.896,"text":"這個狀況你們有沒有什麼任何的因應機制就是這個儲能廠不斷的容量在擴張你們有沒有什麼想法我們是跨部會在檢討那剛才委員講的其實現在有一些儲能櫃有一些新的儲能櫃那新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能那我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃那新型的儲能櫃如果現在已經有一些廠商已經有量產出來"},{"start":12698.556,"end":12723.104,"text":"那我們最後會導引到這樣的一個除人櫃那相對在安全性就會比現在container這個會安全會提高很多那至於委員講的那個跟消防那個我們還會再來跟他做一些確定我上個會期已經找過消防署那麻煩你們要注意不可能容量變大那麼多體積變大那麼多結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛那最後我是在講啦就這次經濟部長"},{"start":12724.993,"end":12746.068,"text":"這新任的這位經濟部長當時業界也有人講就是說他本身他原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電所以他應該會非常的理解經濟部長一定非常的理解太陽能光電在做什麼有什麼風險有什麼未來性但是連最基本的儲能廠甚至匱限什麼都搞不定那我也不知道說這樣下去要怎麼辦"},{"start":12746.949,"end":12769.835,"text":"然後我們的所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的建設的那個比例遠遠落後嘛到現在好像只有136吧136百萬瓦嘛原本是預計到可以到200萬對不對我印象中是這樣齁好吧那"},{"start":12771.544,"end":12774.825,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12787.349,"end":12802.388,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條文修正草案、第十一條文修"},{"start":12805.531,"end":12808.552,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12836.257,"end":12843.101,"text":"請羅明財羅明財羅明財委員不在請賴世寶賴世寶賴世寶委員不在請蔡易瑜委員質詢好謝謝主席那我們是不是有請經濟部次長請林次長"},{"start":12867.423,"end":12871.61,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":12878.813,"end":12902.673,"text":"建設條例裏面要增設了包括化離島的自經區那這離島自經區的第18條規範說自經區的相關的一些管理規範審查基準由離島縣政府以自治條例定之那基本上以自治條例定之基本上就已經架空了兩岸人民關係條例甚至政府採購法"},{"start":12904.354,"end":12916.505,"text":"事長對於這樣的一個狀況你支持用離島資金區然後來架空現在的一個台灣跟中國的一個審核的一個辦法嗎?"},{"start":12917.349,"end":12920.23,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12941.74,"end":12957.074,"text":"貿易示範區而且他是由各離島縣政府以自治條因為這個會涉及到層面影響非常廣他不是只有涉及到目前這個法令可能還要涉及到其他相關土地環評等等這些法令土地環評阿吼"},{"start":12957.995,"end":12959.276,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":12974.525,"end":12993.551,"text":"他有可能也會影響到我們台灣本島這一部分的一個產業的一個發展所以這個因為涉及的層面比較廣我們是建議說如果要應該要拉到中央的層級這邊來做跨部會的相關的再討論完事實上我之前我之前同樣在經濟委員會我在質詢農業部的時候我在講這個中國的牡蠣中間的蚵仔"},{"start":12998.812,"end":13023.972,"text":"都用金門的名義然後洗來台灣明明金門有那麼多的蚵仔嗎?金門的蚵仔企業面積沒有那麼大可是台灣卻出現了一堆金門的蚵仔事實上查起來都是中國的這個就是說離島至今區裡面它會不會變成了一個類似這樣大家一些中國的公司或是台灣的公司"},{"start":13024.853,"end":13026.674,"text":"條例第十一條、第十一條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13047.489,"end":13051.492,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":13071.866,"end":13075.107,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":13096.391,"end":13098.031,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":13123.737,"end":13150.226,"text":"根本已經涉及到的國安涉及到未來整個經濟產業的布局這樣的話把它用離島建設這麼大的一個帽子然後卻暗藏著這樣的一些未來可能的風險我覺得這件事非常的可怕你們必須要好好正視這樣的一個條例未來他在審查的過程都必須要把這些事情必須要講清楚好不好那第二個同樣的狀況啦事實上"},{"start":13153.845,"end":13174.49,"text":"昨天川普也公布他的國務卿了嘛他公布這個盧比歐嘛盧比歐當年他是美中公平貿易執行法是他在當這個眾議院的議員的時候他推動的所以他是在美國禁止跟中國交易敏感科技的法案裡面的一個推動者"},{"start":13175.33,"end":13178.292,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":13200.707,"end":13220.421,"text":"這件事美國也在在意了。結果我們台灣自己不好好的做好我們自己的法官竟然還有委員要用離島建設條例然後把它變成一個破口我是真的很擔心啦台灣不能變成這一個中美貿易戰然後台灣變成一個法外之地"},{"start":13221.756,"end":13241.719,"text":"這部分次長我們會如果是這樣我們會審慎評估的啦我們會審慎評估你們一定要審慎評估啦因為這個會影響面會比較比較大你們一定要審慎評估啦我在下一頁齁福建事實上他公佈了22條的文件齁他訂立2025年叫做兩岸融合發展示範區的目標"},{"start":13244.292,"end":13251.536,"text":"所以兩岸融合發展示範區這個目標跟現在的離島建設條例我看這是有隔岸呼應的這怎麼會隔岸呼應呢當然這陣地的你不用說我們都站在經濟產業面包括未來台灣面對整個國際形勢川普當選後的一些我們可能要想到的一些因應措施你一定要開始去記錄我們現在在討論"},{"start":13273.386,"end":13298.965,"text":"更何況還要設計國際醫療特區然後可以引進中國的醫生進入離島嗎我會記得最近大家為了這個潑潑牙醫為了這個潑潑牙醫大家覺得說啊這個就是在於對我們這個醫師法的這個法案的一個一個可能未周圍的地方然後潑潑牙醫跑進來台灣大家都很生氣"},{"start":13300.607,"end":13310.255,"text":"這個不只是病患生氣連醫生也生氣大家都很生氣結果這個醫療專區就不要破破牙醫但我們要中中牙醫喔要這些中中牙醫然後都是跑到離島然後在離島他們就會有特許都可以跳過醫療法可以這樣嗎"},{"start":13321.52,"end":13344.93,"text":"來衛福部說明一下目前醫療法跟醫師法裡面都規定在台灣執行醫療要先取得那個國內的那個醫師執照才可以做醫療行為當然啊當然啊因為我們認為說醫師要有醫師執照就是他要有專業的訓練嘛這對於患者他有十足的保障啊對啊我們現在我們跟中國的醫療我們有承認中國他們的醫學醫學的一個訓練過程嗎"},{"start":13347.964,"end":13366.576,"text":"我目前是沒有承認他們的學歷沒有承認嘛對不對那就是這是一個前提啊那這個前提不應該會在討論這個離島建設條例的時候然後他就變成一個破口他不可能變成一個上位法然後可以凌駕於我們的醫師法凌駕於很多其他的法規吧"},{"start":13368.337,"end":13371.92,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":13397.648,"end":13421.224,"text":"請麥玉珍麥玉珍麥玉珍委員不在請陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請顏寬恒顏寬恒顏寬恒委員不在請王宏威王宏威王宏威委員不在請伍麗華伍麗華伍麗華委員不在請何欣淳何欣淳"},{"start":13421.664,"end":13435.477,"text":"條例第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13"},{"start":13441.363,"end":13460.897,"text":"條例第12屆發言委員除了不在場外其餘已發言完畢、詢答結束。由委員張綺楷、邱益穎、謝一鳳、麥玉珍、林黛嬅所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢和為其答覆的部分請相關單位於一週以內書面"},{"start":13462.458,"end":13470.308,"text":"條例第十一條答覆並複資本會。本次討論事項均與詢答完畢,所列法案定定期再繼續審查。謝謝大家,現在散會。"},{"start":13548.558,"end":13549.07,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"156960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156960","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b919c533e1da6557efd7b6b5cb373b4ddea15901506589ececc0bfe413a39fb5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:18:51 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暨俊成教授"},{"start":2158.769,"end":2187.356,"text":"好,那接下來我們要先跟各位報告一下今天公聽會的程序如下首先我們先請部會簡短報告後再請專家學者發言依出席簽討順序為原則每位發言的時間為8分鐘委員要發言的請自主席台登記與兩位專家學者發言後安排一位委員發言每位委員發言為5分鐘最後再由與會的機關代表回應說明"},{"start":2193.396,"end":2198.899,"text":"發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時發言結束前一分鐘會按鈴一聲發言結束則按鈴兩聲現在請部會報告我們先請中選會陳副主委曹健報告謝謝"},{"start":2218.837,"end":2240.681,"text":"主席、委員、在座各位專家、學者、各位女士、先生、請代表中選會就今天公聽會的議題簡略說明如下第一個是有關公投案的一個辦理如果是以瑞士舉辦公投的經驗為例公投與選舉應分開舉行"},{"start":2244.631,"end":2272.67,"text":"且公投案件數也應該要有其上限好讓選務機關可以有合理的籌備這一個期間更可以讓民眾有理性思辨的空間跟時間這是從瑞士經驗所得的心得第二個如果"},{"start":2273.308,"end":2299.529,"text":"公投跟選舉是分開辦理的話除了能夠讓選務順遂也能夠讓國家的一個政局穩定有助於朝野邁向更為理性的政黨政治縱使日後要修法來辦理公投也應該要有公投案件數的一個上限"},{"start":2300.009,"end":2300.489,"text":"公投聯署 建議"},{"start":2324.892,"end":2353.613,"text":"要聆聽各界的一個聲音而且公投法跟選罷法也應該是在制度上一致為宜同時也要考慮到個人資料保護的一個問題就這一點而言我們的意見跟內政部這個相同認為公投的這個連署不適合來檢附身份證的一個影本或另做其他的一個措施"},{"start":2356.605,"end":2381.316,"text":"有關一指相似或相反公民投票案的處理中選會依舊會持續聆聽各界的聲音收集各國的制度也會依法來進行公投案件的審核如果有相似或相反公投案件已併成案皆為通過者"},{"start":2382.57,"end":2398.867,"text":"建議以得票數最高者為準有關修法的內容部分要另外規定首長在公投案未獲通過後應請辭"},{"start":2407.007,"end":2419.391,"text":"幾點問題第一個問題是現行的一個公投法已經規定人事事項不得作為公投的一個標的如果將公投不通過與這個權責機關的首長應該要這個辭職這會進行不當的這個連結"},{"start":2428.035,"end":2456.009,"text":"這個狹帶了這個人事案成為公投的一個這個內容與現行的一個規定自有不符會相有所抵觸另外就是政治責任的這個部分不適合用公投法來規定它是屬於憲法或其他法律既有法律尤其是憲法層次的一個規範建議在佐第六點這一個其他的這個部分"},{"start":2456.892,"end":2481.118,"text":"我們建議公投跟選舉分開辦理可以讓公投議題在社會上獲得有效的溝通至於立法委員提議公投的效力另外從兩年延長為四年的部分我們予以尊重其他報告的內容也請"},{"start":2483.908,"end":2484.148,"text":"馬政務次長"},{"start":2511.239,"end":2530.807,"text":"主席各位委員以及各位委員先生女士大家早安首先對於各位委員對內政部業務推動的關注與指導表示我們由衷的感謝今天貴委會召開公民投票法公聽會本部也應邀列席深感榮幸所以我們今天對"},{"start":2531.767,"end":2560.006,"text":"公聽會所列的討論提綱僅將內政部的意見來依序說明第一個有關於公民投票案以及社會溝通以及民眾思辨的一個自由意志的展現的一個問題內政部認為說為了使公民投票能夠有理性討論的時間所以現在公民投票規定每兩年舉行一次來拓開這個選舉這個修法使全國性的公民投票能夠"},{"start":2560.606,"end":2561.246,"text":"公投綁大選中選會副主任"},{"start":2580.556,"end":2581.536,"text":"政務司司長"},{"start":2610.248,"end":2635.994,"text":"之前107年的地方公職人員選舉我們也看到在投開票所產生了一定的亂象那這個造成我們選務人員的一個負擔過重所以能夠審酌我們平衡選務工作執行的可能性跟我們投票的一個公正性這個部分也請大院來參酌那避免爭議來產生"},{"start":2638.735,"end":2654.802,"text":"第三點,有關於連署的部分,如果增列公投連署附國民身份證引本,因為國民身份證本身會揭示個人所有的個資,依照個人資料保護法第15條的規定,"},{"start":2656.203,"end":2656.223,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2677.418,"end":2703.368,"text":"大院跟委員來審慎的橫著至於虛位的連署目前已經有刑事處罰的規範可知處理至於說在目前國內各項有關於連署的部分它的目的性並不同尤其是涉及到選罷有關的連署因為它牽涉到必須要去處理到候選人資格取得"},{"start":2704.028,"end":2728.022,"text":"所以在公職人員相關的這個連署的部分是要對於公職人員的身份做這個選舉候選的身份做確立那公投提案連署是對於四項的投票來做確立所以這個本質是有一定的差異那本部也認為說採行一致的標準它有它理論上跟實務上能夠有是有困難的地方"},{"start":2729.875,"end":2746.298,"text":"第四點有關於一紙相反的公民投票提案如何處理這部分我們尊重中選會主管機關的權責希望能夠在事先完成一個審核的程序再次提案第五點是有關於公民投票的"},{"start":2747.179,"end":2765.056,"text":"結果跟首長的辭職是否要做這個連結或者是公民投票的效力是否要延長那這部分剛才中選會也表達過意見那本部也是尊重中選會的相關意見那至於說有關於公投法跟公民投票制度"},{"start":2765.316,"end":2765.336,"text":"委員長"},{"start":2784.394,"end":2803.568,"text":"好 謝謝其他單位的報告請自行參閱並刊登公報那我們接著我們就請專家學者發言那我們是按初期簽到的順序所以我們第一位請我們的臺北大學公共行政及政策學系教授我們劉家威 劉教授謝謝"},{"start":2816.517,"end":2842.518,"text":"主席還有各位委員、機關代表以及今天與會的專家學者大家好今天很榮幸有這個機會來貴院討論公民投票的一個問題那我過去呢在公民投票上面呢也著力蠻多的在我們系上臺北大學公共行政及政策學系所出版的一本專書裡面這本專書叫做《國政治理》"},{"start":2846.181,"end":2846.921,"text":"公聽會議 公民投票法公聽會議"},{"start":2869.875,"end":2870.095,"text":"公聽會委員：完整會議"},{"start":2885.49,"end":2885.97,"text":"民意代表性不足"},{"start":2903.576,"end":2928.96,"text":"在政治學的研究裡面我們認為政治參與是非常重要的一件事情它體現了公民對這個政治事務公共事務的意見的表達所以代表性是重要的甚至有些國家它採取了在制度上設計了一種制度叫做強制投票也就是那一天一定要放假一定要讓公民投票"},{"start":2930.962,"end":2947.397,"text":"蘇子喬教授和我曾經做過國外民主國家的投票率研究我們當然那時候看到有這樣強制投票的制度我們就沒有去研究它的因素是什麼因為它的投票率幾乎是百分之百"},{"start":2948.138,"end":2948.558,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":2973.007,"end":2973.287,"text":"公投必須綁大選"},{"start":3000.655,"end":3008.918,"text":"雖然2021的結果已經呈現了但是現在已經是2024年我們可以重新來討論這個問題甚至我們必須考慮到剛剛機關代表所講到的一個效率的問題"},{"start":3017.314,"end":3033.91,"text":"公圖綁大選其實在行政效率上是比較高的成本也是比較低的對於人民的投票來講其實是更方便的我們的人民非常辛苦的在自己的事業跟工作上面"},{"start":3034.811,"end":3059.746,"text":"當然大家也都非常的想要關心公共事務跟政治的議題如果能讓人民出門一次就去投票可以同時投公投跟大選的話這何嘗不是一種辨明的措施而且對民意具有回應性所以我覺得第二題的部分公投綁大選是貴院可以來認真考慮的一個方向"},{"start":3060.606,"end":3063.369,"text":"公投連署 死人連署 造假案件並同過去所討論的罷免連署 是否也要附上身份證?"},{"start":3081.027,"end":3081.427,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3110.947,"end":3110.988,"text":"完整會議"},{"start":3111.758,"end":3112.618,"text":"《公民投票法》《公民投票法》"},{"start":3141.607,"end":3141.907,"text":"公聽會 ８事由８"},{"start":3165.037,"end":3189.478,"text":"所謂的新聞媒體說鳥籠公投解放之後那一次之後有大量的提案產生其中應該就是有五個案子它的性質是非常像的跟同婚和反同的議題相關那當時的這個提案因為我們的公投法裡面並沒有把相關的提案的性質如果一樣的話可以並同成一案"},{"start":3190.239,"end":3215.196,"text":"但是這樣子的提案可能會就如同剛剛副主委所講的還必須看哪一個投票的結果票數高如果是這樣的情形來做決策的話恐怕不是一個最好的方法所以我贊成可以用數案併成的方式如果它的提案形式是相同的話把它併在一起當然在併之前呢應該就是要開聽證會"},{"start":3217.677,"end":3237.624,"text":"提案的領銜人之間來做一個溝通協調這個提案怎麼放上去同一個選票甚至這個聽證會也許一次還沒有辦法解決政治上這麼多爭議應該要開到讓大家有共識為止當然中選會也要以自己的職責對這個相關的議案有發言人的一個權利"},{"start":3241.866,"end":3243.007,"text":"公民投票實現公聽會 執政者行政機關公聽會 執政者行政機關"},{"start":3262.602,"end":3263.522,"text":"公民投票法 公共參與管道"},{"start":3287.148,"end":3287.268,"text":"主席"},{"start":3310.029,"end":3318.321,"text":"謝謝 我們謝謝劉教授那我們繼續請南國春秋法律事務所的我們王展興王律師"},{"start":3327.212,"end":3353.154,"text":"主席大院委員各位主管機關的長官還有議會的專家、學者大家早安我很榮幸被邀請來這邊做相關題目的一個發言那這個題目即使主辦單位這邊有提了六個提綱那即使我這邊也是想要從第二個提綱來討論到底"},{"start":3356.277,"end":3373.672,"text":"到底人民的111年的公投的第19案的結果是不是代表全國的民意那這個部分我是有一點不同的意見跟劉老師不同的意見"},{"start":3374.893,"end":3401.056,"text":"不管是哪一次的投票它其實都是一種民意的展現地方選舉跟中央選舉它本來投票力會不一樣不同次這樣的選舉就會有不一樣的看法但是因為台灣長期從107年的公投版大選到110年好幾次的第一次的選舉我想人民大概也慢慢走進公民公投的一個制度也可以"},{"start":3401.817,"end":3401.897,"text":"公聽會 ８第1場８"},{"start":3423.086,"end":3445.025,"text":"110年的公投第19案人民共識投票率沒有降107年那麼高但是出來投票的人民支持上都已經有展現他充分的想法不能說這個投票的人數比較低就表示這個不代表全國的名譽這一點我導致台部一樣的看法"},{"start":3447.967,"end":3472.298,"text":"我們在從比較弱質的職務面來講我自己本身也在政府機關當過法治局處的組長然後我也長期職業多年的律師經驗那我從具戰體比較物質的層面來講今天也有法務部的與會的成員在也有內政部的成員在的長官在跟把徵分證淋粉附在那個"},{"start":3474.898,"end":3496.052,"text":"原組數裡面確實是有一個整合的一個的一個便利性可是我們也要思考到另外一個問題是我們國內或者前世界不法詐騙集團實在太多了多到常常會用一些特定的目的或者一些話術來監傳然後來騙取我們的個人資料"},{"start":3500.802,"end":3525.307,"text":"所以在這個情況之下我比較我們可能是站在一個比較以我當律師來講在職務上常常看見有很多詐騙集團他用一個很冠冕堂皇的理由然後去騙那個人民的徵份證資料或者其他健保卡的資料來各自最後拿去做不法的利用這情況是比比皆至所以到底要怎麼取得一個平衡其實是"},{"start":3527.007,"end":3529.63,"text":"主管機關提出疑慮與看法提出疑慮與看法"},{"start":3548.67,"end":3568.108,"text":"致詞我講大部分的互證機關都有辦法去就這個資料去做查核到底這個人是不是所謂的職人連署或者是所謂的區委連署這個提取是就可以做一個突破的查核了而且"},{"start":3568.849,"end":3584.363,"text":"如果一旦我們訴訟人身分證零一本的話是不是反而會導致很多人有意願講要訴求公投案的人他反而在聯署的時候會打碎長谷會認為說這個部分"},{"start":3586.305,"end":3589.588,"text":"反而在這一題上面我會保持一個比較這個丟法會保持一個比較保留的態度而且會建議說如果真的要做一個彈劾的話是不是請跟內政部這邊研究是不是有類似的比如我剛提的"},{"start":3611.264,"end":3623.334,"text":"分證字號跟發生日期做一個雙重檢核來做檢核就可以了而不要把完整的個人的分證資料放下去然後把所有的個資都外檢出來"},{"start":3626.485,"end":3627.305,"text":"事由．〈公民投票法〉"},{"start":3647.731,"end":3649.191,"text":"必要處置必要處置"},{"start":3669.537,"end":3682.131,"text":"如果這是一個法律規定而不是一個政治捐援如果我們要定化成法律的條文的話請預期的把必要處置至少要把它講清楚說你要做什麼東西這是第一個第二個"},{"start":3683.954,"end":3703.304,"text":"通常來講我們也知道大部分的公投案與我們這幾年我們經歷過的所有公投案我們可以看得出來大部分的公投案它的公投欲止它其實是在捐製一個人民的一個原則性的希望的一個法律的一個案件的一個綱子或者不同意某些法律案件的綱子"},{"start":3704.76,"end":3730.215,"text":"這個部分其實要劃成法規的文字跟明確化其實要有一定的審議時間那有時候可能不是短短的三個月內就完成還要透過相關的主管機關遞就法規文字來做審查所以這個部分我們覺得說這個條文其實是有慷慮的地方而且有一些是政治性的捐贈你又如何劃成具體的法律文字呢"},{"start":3730.615,"end":3748.395,"text":"所以不應該把政治性的責任跟法律的責任混在一起所以這個修法我是有一些不同的看法第一條跟第二條的講法是我會覺得說公投跟大選即使反開會慢慢的把它解開來會比較好"},{"start":3751.578,"end":3772.955,"text":"自治上讓多一點的人民在針對公投的題目去做充分理性的討論而且充分的整育這才是針對落實整育民主的一個精神而不是說我透由大選我對人的大選然後一個很激情化的大選把一個本來要好好理性探討的東西綁在一起說真的對"},{"start":3774.977,"end":3799.823,"text":"候選人可能會拿這個去宣傳可是宣傳的語言往往不是針對這個題目的理性探討而是很不理性的一個政治捐言反而沒把事情模糊化所以這個部分我覺得要把它公投綁大權合在一起再改成原來的這個規定我會覺得是有慷慮的那時間也差不多那以上我們就留給下一位委員 謝謝"},{"start":3804.09,"end":3808.194,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝黃律師那我們繼續請東武大學法學院講師我們的張坤聖教授"},{"start":3827.345,"end":3840.376,"text":"主席 各位委員 與會的政府機關的同仁跟各位參熱的專家學者 大家晚安 大家好早安 大家好我把我的意見還是依照順序來談第一個"},{"start":3844.366,"end":3865.665,"text":"如何能夠讓公民投票案獲得足夠的社會溝通、公共參與管道以利於人民獲得充分及必要資訊理性思辨展現自由意志跟落實直接民權其實依照目前的規定我們大概目前的機制還算夠也就是說因為我這個地方不能花太多時間就是說第一個公民投票法第10條第三項、第4項、第8項的規定"},{"start":3868.587,"end":3887.924,"text":"其實在一開始提案因為我們也常常到中選會去擔任專家的建議所以我覺得在那個地方補正前的聽證會他所舉辦的部分當然我覺得中選會應該花更多的力氣去做產名在產名的過程當中可能可以讓議題更明確一點所以我覺得以目前的機制在第10條"},{"start":3889.085,"end":3892.667,"text":"中選會可以在它的網頁上增加一個公共討論的平台也就是說在那個地方再去做一個"},{"start":3912.24,"end":3926.737,"text":"我們不得不承認公民投票它是對決式民主的模式如果你要把審議式民主放在前提的時候它前面應該讓民眾有更多對於正反意見的理解所以我覺得公共討論是比較必要的第二個或是直接把它納入公務"},{"start":3927.217,"end":3941.493,"text":"公共政策網路參與平臺 去做固定的討論議案如果這樣的話人民就有更直接可以看到更多的意見來用所以我的建議是如果要再增加的話否則我目前覺得從第10條到第17條規定我覺得中選會已經努力了讓這個機制變得更有參與的效果"},{"start":3946.539,"end":3949,"text":"公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選公投綁大選"},{"start":3969.269,"end":3974.791,"text":"主管機關公告公民投票結果起兩年內不得就同一事項重新提起上次公民投票案是在110年12月23日"},{"start":3990.377,"end":4016.258,"text":"提出所以只要在112年12月23號提出就可以再提案所以就算是國民黨的羅志祥委員們他們所提出的修正法我認為應該也沒有問題那比較有問題的是立法委員的修法要不要受兩年的限制其實我認為要因為在公民投票法第30條第二項的規定立法院審議前項第二款之議案不受立法院治權刑事法第13條規定之限制簡單的說是不受借期不連續的規定"},{"start":4019.521,"end":4038.64,"text":"本來就已經有在拘束立法在這個地方做所謂藉其不靈系的例外所以從這個觀點來講我覺得那兩年對立法院一樣會有那個限制但是我覺得應該要有一個立法是針對假使我今天的提案是我在選舉的時候就已經很明確的提案說我是覺得我要用這個來作為我"},{"start":4040.262,"end":4041.423,"text":"公佛黨大選比較特別的是在2018年得立的民眾黨跟民進黨"},{"start":4063.647,"end":4090.294,"text":"民進黨不算得利民眾黨在那一次的臺北市的選舉是得利的那連民進黨在思考的時候都覺得公投不要綁大選免得兩個制度去做混淆而導致因為人力物力的不足了之後會產生的影響為什麼反而在那一次得到不利益的國民黨卻很堅持說我一定要公投綁大選我對這個理解會覺得怪怪的因為理論上來講應該是國民黨得到的那一個不利益他會認為說不行絕對不能公投綁"},{"start":4090.754,"end":4091.894,"text":"公投的議題的討論不見了"},{"start":4117.705,"end":4117.765,"text":"主席"},{"start":4135.64,"end":4137.381,"text":"人民的意見認為立法者沒有符合"},{"start":4162.369,"end":4178.582,"text":"人民直接的意見所以去反對它它應該獨立被思考怎麼會把它放在一起思考所以我一直覺得這個地方怪怪的那如果一定要堅持要總是要去想一個部分用什麼樣的方式去避免2018年的事件以後還會再出現我覺得這個是一定要想的而不是只是說我修個法就好了"},{"start":4179.599,"end":4183.425,"text":"民進黨黨團在109年修法第十屆的時候提出說他認為就是怎麼樣把他脫鉤我覺得是一個很贊成民進黨在這個地方的反省因為他本來是得利者"},{"start":4193.683,"end":4213.915,"text":"那假造的部分我覺得其實這是舉證責任轉換的問題啦因為本來我們應該是客觀舉證責任所以應該是行政機關要負舉證責任結果我們現在把它轉換為人民要去負舉證當事人協力義務這個思考的點裡面出現一個比較大問題是讓公投比較不容易成立在這個思考我有幾個建議啦是很實務上的建議是我覺得啦"},{"start":4214.395,"end":4240.055,"text":"要杜絕的話,第一個聯署檢附身份證剛好倒過來他很難去怎麼樣?很難去杜絕大量的,為什麼?因為本來就曾經掌握大量名冊的人他反而更容易用所謂的死人聯署跟造假的方式來做所以這部分反而是一個不好的方式我認為是應該用電子簽章或比對健保資料的方式應該是比較有效的方法我覺得這個行政的措施我可以建議是往這個方向去做比較直接"},{"start":4241.038,"end":4259.856,"text":"那意見相似相左意見相似相左我只有一個建議是說在思考來講因為行政機關本來就很容易做併案處理就併案處理做一個所謂的如果是創製就做同意的方向如果是複決就做符合定的方向來做創製複決思考所以我這邊沒有多寫因為最重要的是最後一個"},{"start":4261.378,"end":4284.62,"text":"最後一個我覺得比較有問題的是說怎麼實現啊?三十條的規定啊,舊的三十條的規定是做這樣的思考我想我就不要多講,我要趕快講修正條文但修正條文很奇怪吼第一個,這次修法的問題是為針對公民投票法第30條第1項第二款為領域印入的時候提供任何相應的處罰跟強制性的機制我們只可以行政機關要,但是我們沒有可以立法機關要"},{"start":4285.521,"end":4291.844,"text":"那這個地方就很奇怪如果以我的邏輯來講說如果預期的話要辭職那是不是針對立法院直轄市議會、縣議會未能在下一屆修正審議的時候也要解散國會呢?或解散議會呢?相對的思考是一樣你要求行政機關要辭職那是不是要求立法院要那個"},{"start":4303.109,"end":4305.49,"text":"提案人與領選人可申請司法院預知執行"},{"start":4332.81,"end":4338.805,"text":"好 謝謝那我們繼續請原真聯合法律事務所律師賴秉祥賴律師"},{"start":4358.375,"end":4378.214,"text":"主席、在場委員以及各位與會的機關代表還有在場的專家學者跟各位與會代表大家好首先承蒙大院的邀請不過在此以下的發言可能會跟大院立場不太一致也要提醒大院的提案會有違憲的疑慮"},{"start":4381.696,"end":4398.024,"text":"提醒在場機關,其中一案若通過,行政院或總統府要求立即釋憲。以下我不針對提綱,我直接針對提案的部分來進行一個個說明。在院總第20號的委員提案第11006977號的部分,"},{"start":4400.365,"end":4420.897,"text":"以下就不再提院長二十號 直接說明他的暗號這個暗號看似非常的技術性操作如果我們用基本權的角度來看的話他應該是在選舉創制複決的一個所謂技術性的規定也就是說他要求所有的公民投票的選項必須印在同一個票裡面"},{"start":4424.107,"end":4424.267,"text":"主席"},{"start":4448.419,"end":4475.906,"text":"竟然被立法院大院的一個規定給限制我認為這是有高度違憲疑慮的部分這是第一個案件的部分第二個案件呢11001647號的部分我認為如果這個案件通過總統府跟行政院一定會強力要求要進行釋憲雖然大院可能會透過憲法訴訟法凍結大法官的方式來探訪憲法法庭但是呢我們還是要提出這個有高度違憲的疑慮因為在這個案件裡面呢要求"},{"start":4477.006,"end":4501.665,"text":"如果公投通過之後主管機關、相關機關必須要提出相對應的法案而相對應的法案如果沒有達到的話呢必須要辭職那按照我們目前的理解要跟各位提醒的一件事情就是依據4至65號公民投票應該是一個配套措施在我國民意政治的展現裡面呢代議民主才是整個民主政治的"},{"start":4502.566,"end":4521.764,"text":"原則跟核心也就是說只有在代議民主沒辦法落實的情況下才有這一個所謂的公民投票的展現那如果回到代議民主的權力分立的核心裡面來講的話基本上除了憲法規定之外沒有人可以透過立法程序來要求行政院長甚至是總統來辭職在113憲判9裡面"},{"start":4524.967,"end":4528.73,"text":"總統不受大院監督透過公民投票法可以要求總統等主管機關辭職這是匪夷所思也是高度對我國憲法的挑戰"},{"start":4549.107,"end":4560.183,"text":"政治歸政治 憲法歸憲法我想這個作為一個法律人或是說作為一個權力機關按照4-185等概念我想我們還是要尊重憲法的核心那第三個部分呢在"},{"start":4561.448,"end":4586.684,"text":"第3個提案就是11002664號的案件裡面它看似是針對這個公投綁大選的一個規定但成如這個剛剛兩三位的專家學者討論裡面在110年全國公民性投票第19案裡面都已經表達不同意的情況下有什麼樣的立場有什麼樣的狀況而且這個提案委員應該也是代表目前國會這個所謂的"},{"start":4589.606,"end":4589.626,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4608.641,"end":4609.241,"text":"公投已始公投已始"},{"start":4625.129,"end":4625.349,"text":"《公民投票法》公聽會議"},{"start":4648.641,"end":4675.706,"text":"立法院做不到而必須叫公民投票來做白話講公民投票的這個發達都代表立法院工人的這個所謂的削弱或立法院工人的不彰那這個所謂的立法院透過這個方式來削弱自身的權利是合理的嗎或者說把自己的權利給帶多掉是合理嗎這是我們要提出的這個說明這樣雖然是在大院的場子不過還是要特別做個說明那最後回到大院所提供的相關的提綱裡面我認為在這個提綱裡面呢"},{"start":4676.246,"end":4676.346,"text":"主席"},{"start":4700.934,"end":4722.884,"text":"大法官釋之六十五號提到就是說,待民主是核心跟直接的所謂民意展現的情況下,到底今天有什麼樣的狀況是待民主不法展現的。那最後要提到的就是說,在第三案裡面提到的死人連署跟造假案件來講,我認為主管機關中選會應該徹底的說明或說進一步說明在過去以來,我們經歷過數次的公民投票案件,"},{"start":4723.504,"end":4750.518,"text":"那無論是最早開始公民投綁大選來自於後來鬆綁的過程裡面以及在所謂的這個選舉罷免的罷免案件裡面有多少是這個被抓到虛假投票有多少是必須要透過身份證連署的方式來進行因為如果在這個案件裡面大院的立場多數立場是希望透過公民投票的方式來落實或說來促進民意的話那為什麼這時候又突然出現一個要解剖身份證就立場上來講多數的"},{"start":4752.459,"end":4779.93,"text":"大院多數的立委或是多數的民意代表的想法是什麼為什麼在這個法條上看起來會有前後矛盾的情況那接下來就是說回到這一個所謂的公民投票法其他建議來講的話我覺得在我國已經實現多次的公民投票而且公民投票其實有獲得多數同意及沒有獲得多數同意的情況下我論投票率為何那我想都必須要尊重這一個公民投票的結果那尊重公民投票的結果就是既然公民投票法"},{"start":4780.49,"end":4796.465,"text":"原則上已經規定了一定的拘束力那在這個拘束力的情況下如果沒有任何變動的話目前看起來是沒有再度修法的必要也要提醒儲管機關在第二案也就是說辭職的部分可能要高度警戒因為如果假設這個案件通過的話對我國的新政委界才很大危險謝謝"},{"start":4801.451,"end":4810.065,"text":"好 謝謝那我們謝謝那我們繼續請經濟民主聯合智庫的召集人我們賴中強 賴律師"},{"start":4818.997,"end":4834.379,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進那時間的關係請容許我就先就討論提綱的第三題關於公投的連署方式是否因為過去有死人連署"},{"start":4834.879,"end":4857.95,"text":"跟造假連署的案件要求連署人檢附身份證那我要先說明就是死人連署是個假議題啦因為我們知道連署一定會送到戶政事務所去查對那戶政事務所查對的結果那死人連署的名單被剔除的那個檢驗出來的"},{"start":4859.711,"end":4879.793,"text":"比率一定是百分之百 戶政事務所不可能不知道誰是死人連署所以這個題目真正要問的應該是如何面對造假連署 那造假連署我們來看法制上其他國家怎麼做美國有些州的做法是這樣 他會把連署人公佈"},{"start":4881.273,"end":4903.673,"text":"就是說這個案子總共有哪些連署人那你如果發現你的名字被造假你就會去檢舉那當然公佈的做法也許有些人會說那是不是過度的侵犯了個人的隱私那其實立法院過去也有委員提出一個更聰明的做法"},{"start":4904.854,"end":4915.346,"text":"建立一個檢索系統因為既然選委會在查對的時候應該就會把到底這個案子有誰連署就會"},{"start":4919.11,"end":4933.793,"text":"在系統上就會建立那個名冊讓個人可以憑各種的證件去檢驗自己有沒有被冒名連署這個是比較正確的方法"},{"start":4934.614,"end":4955.92,"text":"那如果真的覺得說這樣都還不夠真的要驗證到是不是本人那我也必須說聯署附身份證也沒有辦法百分之百確保是本人這是一個笨的方法就是難道一個人持有我的身份證影本他就能夠代表我嗎"},{"start":4957.26,"end":4978.677,"text":"就是聯署附身份證也不可能百分之百杜絕所有的假聯署如果真的大院要把這個問題踩到底就是說真的要確認本人聯署的話那倒不如參考經濟民主聯合過去先前提出來的方式就是說"},{"start":4980.058,"end":5001.234,"text":"開放讓人民可以拿身份證去護證事務所那邊連署去公證人處連署或者去郵局寄發那個拿身份證寄發存證信函給選委會作為連署如果真正要百分之百確保到本人的話做法應該是這樣而不是附身份證那"},{"start":5003.195,"end":5026.53,"text":"接著我要講一個可能立法委員立法自己都忘掉的問題如果真的不管是在公投法或者立法委員現在已經確定要積極的在推動在選罷法罷免要附身份證這個都有非常嚴重的違反個人資料保護法的疑慮"},{"start":5029.022,"end":5045.577,"text":"立委可能會說我們總統選舉不是也是附身份證嗎各位不要忘了我們以前的個人資料保護法叫做電腦處理個人資料保護法什麼時候也就是說它只保護電腦裡面的個人資料"},{"start":5047.819,"end":5048.56,"text":"各位立委那是在2012年"},{"start":5071.571,"end":5085.128,"text":"2012年10月1號我們的個人資料保護進入到保護紙本身份證、銀本這些都納入個人資料保護的階段我為什麼要講這個各位立委"},{"start":5086.834,"end":5109.337,"text":"歷史上雖然我們的總統、副總統聯署要附身份證到目前有的聯署有效聯署都是在個人資料保護法生效以前1996年許信良跟李洋港"},{"start":5110.704,"end":5130.074,"text":"兩千年宋楚瑜2012年宋楚瑜只有這些到這邊我們歷來的總統有效連署用連署附身份證這樣的方式來取得合法競選資格的他都是在"},{"start":5131.314,"end":5141.24,"text":"個人資料保護法從保護電腦資料跨到保護紙本資料這段時間以前的連署那個時代"},{"start":5143.746,"end":5144.506,"text":"請問各位立委你們對人民"},{"start":5163.41,"end":5189.005,"text":"各自保護的相對應措施是什麼你們真的以為這樣的法律你定下去就有辦法實施嗎當然也許有人會說阿郭台銘2024年的連署不也是在各自法生效後嗎我想那不足為訓郭台銘的連署是台灣史上選舉事件"},{"start":5190.626,"end":5219.353,"text":"被檢察官起訴違反選罷法最多的一個案子它裡面充滿了各種的舞弊而且最後郭台銘先生也沒有登記不要拿郭台銘先生作為例子就是說到目前為止我國所有總統副總統選舉副身份證影本之所以過去有幾個案子"},{"start":5220.333,"end":5243.032,"text":"也沒有幾個案子 總共四個案子宋楚瑜兩次 林陽港一次然後許信良一次 只有這四個案子這四個案子都在2012年以前而《個資法》從《電腦處理個人資料保護法》修正為《個人資料保護法》一併保護資本這個時間點是2012年10月1號生效"},{"start":5246.84,"end":5258.484,"text":"各位立委你們如果要讓連署不管是罷免或公投連署附身份證請好好把個人資料保護法看一遍你覺得真的做得到嗎好 謝謝那我們接著邀請我們東武大學政治學系教授謝振宇 謝教授"},{"start":5274.933,"end":5276.354,"text":"主席在座的委員在座的協助專家政府官員代表媒體朋友這樣一個重要的問題但是我們發現"},{"start":5303.956,"end":5319.608,"text":"主席不曉得待會兒能不能稍作說明我們出席的委員這麼低那原因是這場不重要還是本來公投就是"},{"start":5320.782,"end":5341.295,"text":"因為立法怠惰或者是行政怠惰把權力回到老百姓的手上所來進行的一場真正所謂的還權移民或者主權債民但是我們似乎好像不是那麼重視原因當然有很多"},{"start":5342.632,"end":5356.743,"text":"過去公投法立法以來已經有20個案子真正所謂的實施把權力還到了人民其中13個案子不通過7個案子通過那這個原因也很多當然最重要的就是怎麼樣讓公投在政治家門"},{"start":5370.832,"end":5399.224,"text":"這個公投不分藍綠不分草野的啦他是真的是全民的要有偉大胸懷的政治家才能夠來運作他的嘛但是我們多少次是為了意識形態為了拉抬選情而把選舉跟公投混在一起剛剛政府官員的代表也說到這兩件事情這兩件事情都是國家的事情為什麼不能合在一起我待會也會一一說明"},{"start":5400.478,"end":5427.863,"text":"那另外就是淹沒在那個所謂的選舉的策略裡面而不是真正讓老百姓經過一個理性論辯的過程來瞭解我們國家的重要事項這是第一點我要表達的第二點公投綁大選的問題剛剛也有學者專家贊成也有不贊成的我個人是強烈的贊成公投要綁大選"},{"start":5429.073,"end":5429.113,"text":"主席"},{"start":5448.659,"end":5459.694,"text":"全世界的民主國家絕大部分都是公投綁大選剛剛中選會舉一個例子瑞士就不是這個樣子我想中選會的幕僚應該給你們的副主管"},{"start":5464.78,"end":5490.598,"text":"應該收集更多資料瑞士是一個公投很奇怪的不能說很奇怪他3年內甚至有400多件公投一年100多件不可能綁大選嘛所以他在平常時間就很多公投其他絕大部分民主國家都是公投綁大選他要了解重大的民意重大的政策老百姓到底怎麼想"},{"start":5492.031,"end":5514.763,"text":"所以這是我們看到的問題另外剛剛部會的所長又提到說公投裡面不應該有把人事的責任糾結在一起我想那個法案的理解可能有問題也是幕僚提供的這個公投是針對事情"},{"start":5516.909,"end":5542.166,"text":"而追究責任是針對你既然這個公投過了再兩年也好現在當然建議延長到四年這一段時間你政策執行不利嘛不是用公投來給你罷免或者是什麼不是這樣子所以這一件法案的理解我相信 不會 裡面怎麼會這樣來理解這個法案的精神"},{"start":5543.488,"end":5544.531,"text":"公投綁大選2018年為例是選票設計上的問題"},{"start":5552.765,"end":5558.289,"text":"有十個案子為什麼不能分成一張或兩張同時而不是要一案一票當然會影響到投票的時間跟開票的時間所以這是技術的問題而不是本質的問題我要花比較多的時間來進一步來說明一下說我們過去通過的案子"},{"start":5575.02,"end":5600.647,"text":"但是政府機關兩年嘛兩年之後好像事不關己他就把它淡乎放在一邊了至少要四年我要舉一個例子待會要舉一個例子加州選舉公民投票的例子我這邊收集的英文版跟中文版加州選舉的時候有英文版中文版還有還有西班牙文版他們對這個事情的重視程度啊"},{"start":5601.738,"end":5602.959,"text":"政府部門做的解釋又臭又慘"},{"start":5626.65,"end":5649.708,"text":"不曉得中選會的主要的委員會有沒有人通讀全篇啊通讀完之後你到底理解多少然後要讓老百姓最後選舉之前來看這麼我們的很多的公文書啊都有一點是政令宣導我們很多的公文書甚至法院的判決書都好像寺廟的籤詩一樣"},{"start":5651.892,"end":5663.171,"text":"我誇但是解釋個人發揮所長解釋都不同你看人家加州的這個選舉他們在我放到最後"},{"start":5665.305,"end":5690.731,"text":"加州的選舉裡面他們每一個公投案都有那個快速快速理解它的快速查閱指南跟詳細的那個說明的指南而每一個案子都針對所謂的你贊成這個案子的理由是什麼反對的理由是什麼進一步深論的理由是什麼反對深論的理由是什麼這只是一個簡單的"},{"start":5692.631,"end":5692.831,"text":"主席"},{"start":5720.186,"end":5736.407,"text":"我今天拿過來這裡的,是2010年,離線在14年前,人家都已經做到多詳細的一個說明我們好像每一年都因循,原地踏步,不曉得多少年了"},{"start":5737.185,"end":5754.65,"text":"我想我們的行政首長或者是我們的最高當局我們的立法院的大院主席也當過立委這麼多年怎麼樣強化我們整個法令的政策的執行還有另外我要花點時間說我們現在公投法的第30條那是要因履行什麼什麼什麼責任因就是應該要做"},{"start":5765.495,"end":5768.517,"text":"我們繼續請清華大學通識教育中心兼任助理教授何志勇的教授"},{"start":5804.885,"end":5830.402,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位與會的政府官員代表跟來賓們大家好我是清華大學同志中心的何志勇今天我來這邊跟大家分享一下我對於公投法修法的一些看法其實我只想問一個問題其實剛剛謝老師也提到公民投票最重要的核心就是我們需要多點人出來投票"},{"start":5831.062,"end":5831.482,"text":"2020年的美國總統大選是63"},{"start":5857.339,"end":5883.139,"text":"這是一百年來最高的一次兩個老先生對答那是一百年來最高一次有一億五千萬人出來投票今年美國總統大選不到59%的出席率台灣呢 抱歉上一次要超過六成已經要追溯到1968年多久以前 那是半世紀以前的事情台灣不遑多讓2022年的這個台灣直轄市長的選舉投票率是歷史上新低只有59.86%"},{"start":5885.501,"end":5887.682,"text":"中文字幕 by 沛隊字幕組"},{"start":5909.412,"end":5910.173,"text":"民主政治的影響力"},{"start":5927.76,"end":5947.622,"text":"選民的冷漠他覺得我投誰都一樣爛啊結果都一樣沒有改變我根本不投嘛我出去玩算啊所以這個其實不要說公民投票本身連選舉投票率都要降低了所以我們要想說那我們怎樣能夠讓這些人願意出來投票那當然有人說你看瑞士投很多那是跟這個他沒有綁這個大選那是因為"},{"start":5948.763,"end":5976.933,"text":"他真的辦很多的投票那他一年有好多次這個辦那個公投的這個機會那老實說這個是他有他的傳統的環境那美國其實也是美國老早從19世紀開始那時候有本書我不知道大家有看過沒有叫做多科威爾寫的《民主在美國》那就是一個法國人到美國去玩玩了幾個月回來寫邮寄後來出了一本書他說這個在那個他在新英格蘭那個地方那個鎮他去看鎮民裡面鄉鎮裡面的那些官員十幾種全部都是民選的"},{"start":5977.893,"end":5979.234,"text":"臺灣沒有嘛,選舉就是投票,我們到現在還是拿那種最簡單的"},{"start":5998.586,"end":6015.943,"text":"蓋章去投 人家都用電子投票用打卡什麼真的是人家都上賴太空我們在殺豬公就是我們落後太多我們從技術上落後我們從想法上也落後我們也沒有那個文化所以我們應該要培養我們要想想我們如何透過公投的方式去培養大家參與公共事務"},{"start":6017.788,"end":6018.408,"text":"民意代表"},{"start":6048.368,"end":6048.889,"text":"培養大家的習慣"},{"start":6078.188,"end":6078.869,"text":"主要是加州希望說"},{"start":6097.038,"end":6121.048,"text":"加州法院說現在加州關的犯人太多了違反憲法所以要求他們不要關那麼多人所以他們只好調低門檻不要抓那麼多人當時2014年加州第47號提案就是我們講零元共的事情就是綁期中選舉同一天那今年2024年美國總統大選加州人覺得10年過去遊民太多犯罪率太高到處被搶我們在台灣也看到那個新聞"},{"start":6122.128,"end":6140.762,"text":"通過一個第36號提案就是要矯正這個47號提案然後這個獲得七成的支持通過那細節我就不講綁什麼綁總統大選嘛讓大家出來投票嘛那另外一個就是有更有意思的就是在2022年美國這個期中選舉裡面加州還有一個叫做聖伯納·迪諾郡"},{"start":6143.044,"end":6155.888,"text":"通過一個這個投票說他不要研究獨立於加州之外要脫應該是脫歐啦脫美還是要脫加州他還是綁這個期中選舉啊欸 通過了所以我覺得說這個東西是說我們怎麼樣透過這樣的機會應該讓大家覺得說我們願意參與願意表達意見不管是創製是複決我覺得都好"},{"start":6163.57,"end":6163.991,"text":"《公民投票法》公聽會"},{"start":6179.735,"end":6179.915,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":6194.81,"end":6211.931,"text":"任何的執政黨不管藍或綠其實都不太希望被公投所自走為什麼呢因為我既然有總統我有國會你就不要給我搞公投來干擾我時政那如果是分裂政府的話那狀況是剛好不太一樣分裂政府是執政黨會覺得說"},{"start":6213.533,"end":6213.913,"text":"國會多數黨公投法"},{"start":6230.349,"end":6248.545,"text":"自衡執政者 也能夠牽制國會多數政黨從老百姓的角度來看這是件好事這跟黨派跟一致政府跟少數政府其實沒有太大的相關所以我覺得最後再呼籲一次就是我覺得其實可以回到2017年以前的版本就是我們不要去限制"},{"start":6249.326,"end":6249.786,"text":"現在我們請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":6290.652,"end":6293.839,"text":"謝謝主席 各位親愛的家人 大家早安"},{"start":6296.003,"end":6299.086,"text":"首先我們謝謝我們的各位教授來自不同的領域認同我們的推廣第二個就是要跟各位教授道歉說明因為今天是委員會也是審查預算就是各個委員就不可以到各個委員要去執行為我們人民的血汗錢把關所以各位教授要體諒"},{"start":6325.006,"end":6325.046,"text":"主席"},{"start":6341.579,"end":6341.599,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6364.52,"end":6373.999,"text":"真實的聽到民意我們教授在來自不同的領域有教出我們的很多優秀的人才所以你們最了解的"},{"start":6376.2,"end":6376.84,"text":"公聽會委員：完整會議"},{"start":6404.52,"end":6405.301,"text":"政務無義務執行公投"},{"start":6435.06,"end":6435.101,"text":"主席"},{"start":6457.279,"end":6457.319,"text":"主席"},{"start":6487.258,"end":6493.162,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在繼續請東武大學政治學系教授 舒子喬 舒教授主席 各位委員 在座各位機關代表還有各位與會學者還有媒體朋友們各位好"},{"start":6512.422,"end":6528.011,"text":"很榮幸有這個機會來這邊就這個議題公民投票法的修法的議題提出我自己的一些潛見跟看法因為提到的內容蠻多的時間的關係我會把焦點放在放在這個這個"},{"start":6531.724,"end":6532.704,"text":"公投綁大選公投綁大選"},{"start":6551.349,"end":6578.015,"text":"知識的角度來贊成的理由會認為說透過公投綁大選可以提高投票率讓公投更容易通過這是第一個看法第二個理由可以認為說公投綁大選可以降低選務成本行政成本第三個理由可能會認為是說透過公投綁大選可以促進政治人物候選人在競選的過程當中他必須要對公投議題表態這是公投綁大選的主要理由"},{"start":6578.655,"end":6600.325,"text":"那如果對這個議題抱持一個比較負面看法的、抱持一個比較反對看法的一個觀點會認為是說公投把大選很可能會造成這個在選舉過程中會變成是公投會變成是選民、變成是政黨動員選民的工具那也可以說是這個拉抬選情的工具"},{"start":6601.525,"end":6629.48,"text":"那另外就是說在這樣情況之下公投議題很容易淹沒在這個選戰的煙消當中那模糊了這個公投議題這個這樣的焦點那另外還有一個就是說從有人會認為說從美國的經驗來看從美國各州的公投的經驗來看公投綁大權很普遍所以我們認為說我們公投就認為說公投就是會認為這應該是認為公投綁大權主要理由啦那我剛剛講的說反對的理由是主要這樣的看法那我這邊我覺得值得思考就是說"},{"start":6631.448,"end":6660.46,"text":"到底公投的目的是什麼公投的目的是為了要讓公投容易通過然後盡可能提高投票率這個是作為主要公投主要用意嗎還是認為說我們實施公投主要用意是要盡可能精確的反映這個人民的意志在這個公投過程當中人民的意志能夠在這個公投中能夠比較清楚的展現出來那我會覺得這兩個目的如果去思考的話我覺得後面這個應該才是公投主要的目的而不是"},{"start":6661.48,"end":6685.631,"text":"盡量要拉高投票率,促進政治參與,但是政治參與很重要假設在選舉過程當中去拉高投票率,讓公投更容易通過我覺得這並不是公投主要的目的而是要讓民眾在公投的過程當中精確的展現自己公民的意志另外我提供一個資料,這個資料是我個人真的去"},{"start":6687.092,"end":6710.449,"text":"過去這段時間很努力去做資料的整理跟收集的就是說從1990年到2021年為止這30年之間全世界有91個國家我是從比較政治的角度來提出這個觀察全世界有91個民主國家前提是民主國家有舉辦過全國性公投我這邊強調是全國性公投不是像美國那種各州公投"},{"start":6711.349,"end":6737.765,"text":"在這91個民主國家裡面其中有60個國家就是三分之二左右的國家它的公投跟大選是完全脫鉤的他們有舉辦過很多公投可是都沒有跟大選舉辦其中有31個國家都大概是三分之一的國家公投跟大選是同時舉行的所以這樣看起來就是有三分之二大概是六成多的國家公投跟大選是"},{"start":6739.086,"end":6755.359,"text":"脫鉤的是沒有合在一起辦的那我這邊還可以進一步再指出就是說在這個脫鉤的國家裡面事實上有比較多的國家是穩定的、成熟的民主國家所以比較新興的民主國家或是說民主還不是那麼上軌道的國家"},{"start":6756.079,"end":6780.619,"text":"確實公投跟大選同時舉辦的機會是比較多的啦但這背後是什麼原因還可以進一步再去研究只是我先提出這張資料然後我要進一步指出就是說如果以我們看特定國家就是說即使是公投跟大選會合在一起舉辦的國家其實也不是常態我舉個例子好了像紐西蘭在過去30年之間它辦了11次的公投可是其中就是有4次的大選國會大選是跟公投合在一起舉辦的"},{"start":6782,"end":6799.289,"text":"那就是說那在七四的其他的公投裡面其實也是跟大選是沒有合在一起舉辦的所以我說其實在全世界如果我們如果說不要一直都講瑞士啦因為有時候人說瑞士是一個特定的個案他比較強調直接民主的精神那如果說從全球性的觀察來講我覺得這個這樣的一個資料還也是值得"},{"start":6800.55,"end":6813.148,"text":"是個各位參考的就是說公投綁大選其實並不是一個主流我個人對於公投綁大選這件事情的這樣的修法方向我也是抱持一個比較保留的態度的"},{"start":6816.231,"end":6843.882,"text":"這是第一個我比較關注的議題那因為第二個議題就是提到說為了要避免死人連署、造假的案件所以要修法透過修法方式要求連署人去檢附身分證那這是否恰當我這邊的思考是這樣子就是說其實就陳如剛前面與會者提出的一個看法其實這樣的用意其實是為了要防範造假連署"},{"start":6846.552,"end":6861.364,"text":"臉書的造假我這裡是對於臉書人檢負身份證這樣的修法方向其實是樂觀其成的我不是那麼的覺得他餘力那麼大我這邊主要的論點是認為事實上我們現在的總統、副總統的選舉是透過"},{"start":6866.548,"end":6882.296,"text":"是透過有联署是身份證的联署可是罷免並沒有但是罷免最近就在討論說是不是應該要身份證的联署公投也沒有現在正在討論公投法裡面是不是也要加入這樣的一個這樣的移修法方向我是認為說至少這邊應該是要保持一致的標準"},{"start":6885.157,"end":6907.383,"text":"一致的標準剛剛前面次長有提到就是說本質不同因為一個是要認定這個總統候選人的參選資格一個是公投的成案資格可是我會認為這個本質有什麼不同嗎其實就是要確認到底民眾能不能出來投票啊不管是公民投票還是出來進行選舉投票啊我覺得這兩件事情的本質其實在某種程度上是蠻相同的"},{"start":6908.283,"end":6929.299,"text":"所以我會覺得說,要不然就是一個,我覺得這邊的,我強調的,我這邊可能要強調就是說應該是採一致的標準,要不然就是把那個我們中東選罷法裡面的那個身份證的那個連署的方式也把它取消掉吧那用其他的認證的方式來讓它更符合這個一致的標準所以我是覺得說,這邊我實際上還是保持一個比較開放的態度啦就是說"},{"start":6930.54,"end":6945.135,"text":"三個公投罷免跟選舉這三件事情總統選舉這三件事情的連署程序的標準不一樣我覺得確實有點矛盾那剛剛說的所謂本質的那看法本質的說法我覺得也有些值得斟酌的地方"},{"start":6947.323,"end":6972.206,"text":"一點點時間,還剩半分鐘一個修法方向是提到說重大政策執行如果沒有落實執行的話是不是要怎麼處置我覺得這個問題實際上是一個政治議題我們發現事實上有很多公投議題其實它是很難具體執行的例如假設我們過去台灣加入聯合國那個公投案通過的話"},{"start":6972.887,"end":6991.745,"text":"或是東奧正名東京奧運正名的公投但那個沒有過啦就是說他如果通過的話那到底要如何具體執行那如果說他沒有辦法真的有辦法執行的話那是不是就會造成這個那個行政首長下台那這部分我覺得值得再斟酌啦因為時間關係我就先談到這邊就教一個位謝謝"},{"start":6994.934,"end":6995.134,"text":"蔡家鴻"},{"start":7011.993,"end":7026.524,"text":"主席、各位機關代表、各位學術先進今天非常榮幸可以到這邊就今天的討論提供一些個人的意見就第一個大題來講事實上我個人認為台灣在"},{"start":7036.811,"end":7045.958,"text":"實施公民投票這段時間以來事實上應該要認真考慮公民投票應該要限制在於"},{"start":7047.955,"end":7068.385,"text":"《公民投票法》第2條提到說公民投票法律的覆決、立法原則的創制還有重大政策的創制及覆決個人覺得我們應該把公民投票範圍加以限縮在法律覆決以及立法原則的創制也就是說"},{"start":7070.185,"end":7086.224,"text":"重大政策這個重大或是說這個政策事實上是非常的模糊的字眼但是法律的覆決跟法律的創制是比較具體的在這個世界各國來講事實上也是都有潛力可循"},{"start":7087.267,"end":7113.262,"text":"那麼這樣的修改會連結到說我們第五個提竿就是如何認定實施必要的處置假如在過去大家如果記憶還在的話在2018年這樣的一種公投之後實項公投之後事實上有些法律就跟著修法了比方說非核家園的部分"},{"start":7114.262,"end":7140.462,"text":"所以這就是很明確的必要處置你就不會有說比如說這樣的政策有沒有辦法執行然後有沒有行政首長因此下台的問題事實上在世界各國都是以因為世界各國是議會多數是議會內閣制所以在提出這樣的法律修正的時候事實上在議會已經經過相當多的討論了"},{"start":7143.544,"end":7168.523,"text":"現在如果討論之後如果有少數黨是覺得說我們的意見沒有辦法在議會充分表達那表達到公投的時候那麼公投如果真的通過了少數黨提的議會的意見的時候當然這個多數黨的政府也要必須去修法所以這樣的一種公投的運行事實上應該還是比較順暢"},{"start":7171.676,"end":7191.495,"text":"臺灣參考瑞士規定若干預算金額以上提出公投所以很多特別公投都被付諸於公民投票"},{"start":7193.817,"end":7223.217,"text":"但是瑞士人 我想他們自己有在思考說是不是這樣的公投有點曠之廢時然後其實並沒有完全符合議會民主的一個精神剛剛其實也有學術先進提到就是說代議政治其實才是我們民主政治的核心那如果說在議會裡面大家可以取得一個共識的話事實上就不需要到這個公投的這個補救措施"},{"start":7223.797,"end":7225.538,"text":"責任政治問題得到解決公投綁大選"},{"start":7248.393,"end":7272.607,"text":"如果說公投真的可以體現說少數黨的民意或是說立法過程中的缺陷的時候呢其實我是贊成說公投可以考慮跟大選在一起就像剛剛有學徒先生提到事實上我們不用特別限制說公投"},{"start":7273.621,"end":7296.86,"text":"只能綁大選或是說公投一定不能綁大選事實上只要說在法律過程中有這個需要經過一定的審查連署之後我覺得公投跟大選一起結合事實上並沒有說一定會造成說反而讓民眾的意見淹沒在選戰過程之中那麼"},{"start":7303.169,"end":7321.82,"text":"在歷次公投的執行過程中大家可以發現說因為有公投綁大選所以會造成政黨動員我想這是一種制度影響政治的行為的過程在我們台灣的政治文化沒有辦法說走到"},{"start":7323.288,"end":7342.048,"text":"純粹由人民團體提出公投這樣的一個階段的時候其實公投綁大選事實上就是說政黨來操控公投事實上似乎是還難以用規定或是說法律來約束當然就是說硬是把公投跟大選分開"},{"start":7343.129,"end":7343.59,"text":"政黨動員公投與選舉結合"},{"start":7365.282,"end":7378.458,"text":"第三個問題是聯署的問題我們中選會在今年已經公告上線全國性公投電子投票的聯署系統"},{"start":7380.139,"end":7399.192,"text":"事實上大家都可以來試用不管是你要連署不管是要提案或是要連署都可以來使用電子連署電子連署我想應該可以杜絕這種所謂死人連署、造假連署的問題當然會有自然的疑慮或是說會不會有人代替我去連署之類的"},{"start":7400.333,"end":7426.431,"text":"那麼我想沒有一個方法是實權實美啦但是比起說用身份證影本這樣連署的方式我覺得電子連署似乎還是比較可信一點而且公投法也已經規定就是說電子連署是全國性投票的一個連署的一個方法我們不能只是停留在紙本連署的部分"},{"start":7427.432,"end":7427.452,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7450.496,"end":7452.276,"text":"張詩大 公共事務與公民教育系副教授 劉兆龍"},{"start":7484.475,"end":7499.721,"text":"國務委員 主席 國務委員 與會的專家學者 還有各個部會的官員代表 大家好 我是張化師阿劉兆龍關於今天這主題我大概有幾個看法 第一個 我整理了一下我們過去"},{"start":7503.132,"end":7521.22,"text":"從2004年到現在所有的公投我們可以來看到幾個結果第一個結果其實這個結果還蠻有趣的第一個是說綁不綁大選跟投票率它是不是必然正相關我們可以發現在早期的幾個綁大選我們的投票率從20幾到50幾通通都有第二個"},{"start":7522.489,"end":7533.585,"text":"我們可以看到這個很有趣的差異性那當然啦不綁大選從2021年開始不綁大選我們的投票率是開始偏低的就那一次只有41那"},{"start":7536.294,"end":7552.129,"text":"最後一次修憲公投有榜大選是58我們來看第二個很有趣的觀點如果拿來做表格比較的話我們可以發現到幾件事第一個2018年通過率是最高的10個案子通過了7個"},{"start":7554.29,"end":7578.902,"text":"當2017年之後立法院有通過修法限制了公民投票的門檻當2009年到2017年之間這個很神奇沒有任何一個公民投票案被提出來2018年到2021年的相比可以發現有榜大選的確是投票率比較高但2024年2004年到2006年公投議題也會影響到就是你議題的性質也會影響到投票率"},{"start":7584.144,"end":7596.47,"text":"前期公民投票多半是政治面向2018年之後開始拓展到民生跟教育面向當然人員跟性平的議題跟政黨也是有關係有特定的政黨在"},{"start":7601.195,"end":7601.215,"text":"致詢議題"},{"start":7626.22,"end":7651.036,"text":"全國性公投不是全國性公投我們拿一個地方型公投那麼多的一個案子來看我們一個主要是以全國性公投為主的國家所以說我們在這個類比上面我們必須要注意到這個差異性這是第一個第二個我覺得台灣人最厲害的一點是什麼你知道嗎就是所有的制度進入了台灣之後我們都會找到它最神奇的神奇可以利用的地方然後去找到它一個精妙的"},{"start":7652.085,"end":7652.385,"text":"東奧正名公投"},{"start":7674.059,"end":7700.756,"text":"陳儒剛剛指橋所言這過了也不知道該怎麼辦對不對第二個是過了以後政府不做也不知道該怎麼辦然後第三個是誰會期待他過那這個公投真正最重要的意義是什麼呢真正最重要的意義是誰去連署他誰會去連署那個東奧這名公投答案很簡單就是深綠色、墨綠色的那些民眾會去主動的連署這個所以這整場公投最大的意義是什麼最大意義是那個連署人名冊"},{"start":7701.84,"end":7725.167,"text":"因為他可以從議題的切割裡面找到這群深綠的支持者到底是誰然後來進行核心的政治動員所以說這個是我研究政治學多年我發現的最神奇的地方就是我們台灣人永遠可以在一個制度當中找到他的心意所以說你會發現未來來講會有政黨不斷的去創造各式各樣的議題去切割出他的核心選民然後來做政治動員那如果這個已經變成了這個"},{"start":7727.796,"end":7746.091,"text":"公投這個制度的話那我們去期待說公民投票是不是能夠真正的去展現民意這個真實的一面那其實你會發現政黨已經發揮它的它的那個第二個功能所以說我們回頭來看一個問題公民投票我們的目的是什麼我們目的如果說是要展現說讓它過"},{"start":7747.312,"end":7747.332,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7767.588,"end":7796.091,"text":"我個人認為在修法的問題上面我們必須要知道我個人認為說公投綁不綁大選這個問題我個人目前是傾向於就維持限制就好為什麼因為其實我們還是一個以間接民主就是以代議政治為主的國家直接民主應該是例外而不是常態以上是我個人的一個簡短發言謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續邀請臺北大學公共行政及政策學系教授紀俊成 紀教授"},{"start":7806.348,"end":7833.685,"text":"我們公聽會召集委員張委員各位議會的樓委員以及協助專家各位郭部會的同仁大家好我想公投的問題我們應該了解這個制度設計是做什麼那麼當年的制度只要就是依照這個蔡同榮委員的16條"},{"start":7835.219,"end":7861.24,"text":"再加上我在內政部民政司所提出來的有關於程序的規定組成的當時我就提出來如果只有16條的話這個條文是不可能施行的所以我在民政司提出來的創出戶決法的程序的規定就納進來了"},{"start":7864.41,"end":7887.181,"text":"公民投票審議委員會這個制度當時也是我想出來的我為什麼要這個制度主要就是考慮到公民投票是知識體大、勞師動作、影響很多人、耗損國家資源這個制度到底是必要的二還是必要的三"},{"start":7888.203,"end":7901.993,"text":"我個人的看法是認為他是一個要門檻要高的制度不能門檻太低沒有想到很多人把它指為是鳥頭的公投結果門檻降低了所以今天為什麼會有這個問題的應該要考慮到當時誰提出來門檻降低的人"},{"start":7913.687,"end":7942.04,"text":"這是一個最大的惡質如果不是把門檻降低的話怎麼會有那麼多公民投票案呢怎麼會有這個十幾個案的問題呢還有呢公民投票審議委員會這個制度好好的一個制度為什麼要取消呢結果呢現在變成我們中央選舉委員會忙著辦事所以我想這個都是我們要考慮到的"},{"start":7942.932,"end":7970.742,"text":"那回歸到政體我個人是認為公民投票的制度應該要做前面的檢討還是要回顧到全國性的公民投票它應該是高文函的地方性的投票才是低文函的這樣的制度才合理的我想剛剛有很多的學者專家提到美國那美國為什麼沒有全國性的公民投票呢"},{"start":7971.67,"end":7980.705,"text":"它不是最民主的國家嗎?可見公民投票有它的限制這是我們在制度設計是要了解的"},{"start":7981.471,"end":8009.909,"text":"所以我建議啊公民投票的制度呢我們中選會以及啊我們列政部呢應該要前面的檢討不是去說這個要做那個不能做那這都是無意義的我們要前面的檢討哪一個制度是對全民的利益有用的基本上整個民主制度還是要維持議會制度所以議會政治才是最重要的不得已"},{"start":8010.871,"end":8011.431,"text":"公聽會議 公聽會議 公聽會議"},{"start":8033.462,"end":8056.773,"text":"沒有想到國民大會智慧武功解決了另外一個問題當時我提出來的是說統獨的問題一定要公民投票沒有這個制度的話未來一定會有內戰的一個危險所以我當時是接一個觀點才主張民進黨所主張的依照憲法第二條"},{"start":8057.981,"end":8070.13,"text":"中華民國組織屬於國民前提可以作為公民投票制度的一個基礎我想這個過程也就說明我們公民投票制度是不要隨便做的"},{"start":8071.375,"end":8099.49,"text":"是要高門檻的是要很嚴格的所以說這個是一個理論基礎我向各位說明當時立法的背景是這樣的但是幾次的修改以後門檻降低了所以造成了那麼多的提案甚至於造成了這個投票的數序的混亂的問題但是我們想想看我們投票結果出來以後有執行嗎"},{"start":8101.176,"end":8123.158,"text":"以核養利通過了嗎?以核養利通過了以後有執行嗎?所以說這個來講不要說這個對那個錯我個人來講的話我是無黨籍的我不是國民黨也不是民進黨我是一個無黨籍的身份我來看問題我覺得該修就修該改就改"},{"start":8124.11,"end":8144.714,"text":"基本上我是認為這個門檻的問題牽涉到一個剛剛大家所關心的就是說公民投票的連署人要不要有這個身份證檢驗的問題各位都了解如果我們從一個制度一致性來講的話那麼總統、副總統的連署這個制度"},{"start":8151.004,"end":8165.721,"text":"是怎麼設計的是不是兩個要回來考慮因為我覺得全國性的公投要和地方性公投的制度有一點差異然後要嚴格一點使這個全國性公投相對的減少這是一個問題"},{"start":8169.48,"end":8171.701,"text":"執行過程中可否討論?當然可以討論,兩年內延長幾年,這是一個設計上的考量"},{"start":8182.267,"end":8211.173,"text":"但是公投是可以來進行討論的所以說像國民黨現在所提出來兩年也就是四年我覺得四年是不是少了一點點但是從一個總統前期的任期四十年來看的話他也有他的道理所以我是覺得是不是可以著重一點就是說和立法院的提案一樣也都三年那這樣的話可能就是一個設計"},{"start":8213.137,"end":8232.772,"text":"所以說任何一個制度我們都希望它有一個理論基礎而不是說今天發生了什麼困難我就修改哪一條結果把整個架構亂成一套了亂套了這個是一個很可惜的制度以上意見供參考 謝謝各位好 謝謝那我們現在請羅志強委員"},{"start":8245.99,"end":8252.418,"text":"各位與會的專家學者然後各位委員以及各位我們政府的列席的官員"},{"start":8255.204,"end":8273.893,"text":"新國會智庫委託區市民調公司所作公投的民調顯示臺灣民眾有高達66.3%是支持恢復公投並大選只有21.3%表示不支持也就是有三分之二的民眾認同恢復公投並大選"},{"start":8277.074,"end":8299.382,"text":"就算是民進黨的支持者有百分之六十四的民眾是支持公投並大選所以嚴格來講公投並大選以目前來看的話算是超越黨派的一個人民的一個多數的一個共識但是很遺憾的公投並大選這個主張最早提出來就是民進黨"},{"start":8300.602,"end":8302.003,"text":"蔡同榮公投並大選公投並大選紅水猛獸"},{"start":8316.149,"end":8332.097,"text":"但是今天卻因為在2018年民進黨因為在那一次的公投並大選然後發現他們在那次選舉是失敗的於是火速在2019年就把公投跟大選拆開來了"},{"start":8333.217,"end":8355.667,"text":"像這樣的一個所謂的對過去自己主張的一個價值主張神主牌的反覆其實坦白講是我最不能接受的那當然我也必須說公投到底尤其全國性的公投到底門檻要設計多高要設計到什麼程度以及公投選務如何簡化我這些都是可以討論的問題不要舉個例子"},{"start":8357.15,"end":8373.573,"text":"中選會他用兩個理由來反對公投並大選第一就是說2018你看造成選務延宕所以不能公投並大選那第二就是說事跟人不可以混在一起投所以公投不可以並大選我們先來看第一個第一個我就要講"},{"start":8374.674,"end":8390.823,"text":"期待新德總統再當行政院院長針對2018年的選舉所造成的選務的延宕他歸納是兩大因素中選會事前規劃不周、事終處變不急他是規劃認為中選會是自己做不好"},{"start":8391.994,"end":8413.45,"text":"結果 要求中選會檢討這是賴清德當行政院長下的令你中選會要檢討這次檢討 兩個結果第一個 陳奕銓下台陳奕銓大家知道嗎就當時的中選會主委為這個選務的問題下台因為他們中選會選務沒有把它做好第二個是什麼就在隔年把公投大選拆開了這就是所謂的民進黨的檢討但是我就要說"},{"start":8415.492,"end":8443.371,"text":"這個選務所謂的延宕的問題真的不能解決嗎?舉個例子民眾黨就有一個提案啊就是把所有的公投案並列一張公投票上就減少大家一直重複領票浪費的時間或者說今天在所謂的要不要用身份證的門檻來認定的話也都可以有效果的來讓這個所謂公投門檻做一點調整甚至包括選務的更順暢但是民進黨不是啊"},{"start":8444.292,"end":8472.05,"text":"民進黨是直接把公投大選拆開來大家都忘了一件事情過去民進黨最堅持公投併大選有一個最重要的理由是什麼他認為兩個第一個公投併大選所以才能夠讓投票率增加投票率增加這公投代表性才會夠第二是公投如果沒併大選因為投票率不夠會注定沒有任何公投能夠通過這兩個理由使得說公投併大選成為一個主張然後後來在我們的公投法當中被實現了"},{"start":8473.471,"end":8477.553,"text":"民進黨在2019年把公投大選拆開來之後結果到了2022年的所謂的18歲投票權的修憲來民進黨提出的時候他是主張公投並大選的"},{"start":8499.79,"end":8513.07,"text":"那為什麼議會是四根人不可以混淆一會四根人又可以混淆這種完全用政治性的方式來影響今天攸關憲政體制的公民投票制度我覺得真的是非常對不起蔡同仁非常對不起過去民進黨的主張"},{"start":8514.144,"end":8538.886,"text":"所以在這邊齁我對於公投的一些包括說選務的怎麼樣簡化以及包括像這個連署的門檻身份證的一個要不要取得這部分我認為是可以大家可以共同來討論但是你的公投拆大選結果直接導致是2020年20那個2022年的這個所謂公投的那個併大選的公投拆大選的那個投票"},{"start":8540.067,"end":8554.162,"text":"幾乎都只有20%的投同意票耶所以他沒有辦法過25%就應驗了民進黨當時的預言嘛他更嚴重的結果是因為根本不會過你就會發現到2023年連一個提案都沒有"},{"start":8554.94,"end":8572.81,"text":"因為沒有人要浪費力氣去連署一個不會過的公投公投跟大選只要拆開來就不會過了所以可以調整公投的門檻但是拜託公投跟大選要併起來來實現我們人民的所謂的公投權利這才是我覺得今天最核心的要旨以上 謝謝好 謝謝那我們繼續請中央大學科爾與極色科系兼任副教授曾建源副教授"},{"start":8588.742,"end":8600.071,"text":"蔣委員 還有在座各位委員 各位機關代表和各位學者先進我這邊就對於公投法修正的議題提供一些意見"},{"start":8602.456,"end":8620.661,"text":"首先,關於公投綁大選的問題,討論的焦點,主要就是說它的政治或社會成本的問題。如果我們看,正如剛才劉兆龍教授所說的,"},{"start":8624.822,"end":8644.167,"text":"當公投綁大選的時候我們過去的這個經驗證明了一點就是這個它成為一個切割政治市場去找出核心支持者的一個政黨的政治動員的一個工具所以這個使得公投在追求人民最高主權者的意志"},{"start":8645.087,"end":8666.435,"text":"真實意思是因為政黨的介入動員和選舉目的混淆導致公投的問題沒有辦法冷靜地去進行審議這是我們過去的教訓所以才有上一次的修法我也坦誠跟各位報告"},{"start":8668.263,"end":8688.443,"text":"最早當公投可以綁大選的時候當時我也曾經寫了文章討論這個問題我也看出來公投綁大選它可以進行政治的動員所以當時我跟林佳龍曾經和寫的文章和編的書裡面談到這個問題但是"},{"start":8692.415,"end":8692.435,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8711.585,"end":8729.724,"text":"公投的這種神聖民主的精神能夠彰顯出來因為沒有經過政黨攸關政權得失的這種政治動員的情況之下只有真正的公共議題他才有機會得到社會的動員"},{"start":8731.506,"end":8738.873,"text":"支持者動員 去除高門檻 因為過去的規定是沒有達到高門檻就視同不通過 反對者不去投票不參與意見 使得公投結果不通過這是一個不負責任的"},{"start":8752.788,"end":8778.836,"text":"公投參與者或主權者的一種態度所以我們把公投的門檻降低讓有意見的、參與審議的來表達意見當然我們唯一的門檻就是必須達到投票權人四分之一這個是我們現在公投法二十九條規定這是合理的因為你要避免參與過低所以使得它的代表性不足所以這個是我們過去公投法實施的一個經驗、教訓"},{"start":8781.457,"end":8787.039,"text":"我認為現行的法律還是應該維持至於談到為了避免投票舉辦的成本"},{"start":8801.605,"end":8802.286,"text":"《公民投票法》公聽會議"},{"start":8832.032,"end":8859.998,"text":"演化撩亂很容易搞錯所以要避免這方面的爭議其實最笨的方法就是一張票一個提案然後贊成反對或者棄權或者是無效等等在一清二楚一目了然所以我認為現行的制度是多年經驗的一個結晶我們還是要考慮一下它有合理的部分還是應該維持"},{"start":8861.601,"end":8889.338,"text":"不過這下談到就是說我非常贊同剛才那個季俊成教授所提到的公投審議委員會其實這個制度非常重要我們過去公投審議委員會它原來設計精神是它要去對於這個人民或者是各個提案團體提出來的公投案它的內容比如說有看這個現行的法律用字"},{"start":8890.459,"end":8904.209,"text":"公投提案是一般的民眾公民團體提出來的它未必有法律上的專業所以透過公投審議委員會讓公投投票的結果會具有可執行性所以這個需要專家"},{"start":8908.101,"end":8931.13,"text":"組成專門委員會對這個進行調整在不違背提案者的原意之下做調整另外可能有類似的公投提案可以透過公投審議委員會來進行併案就好像我們立法院委員會當中可以做成併案的建議"},{"start":8934.636,"end":8934.776,"text":"公訪委員會"},{"start":8951.792,"end":8952.132,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8979.544,"end":8983.947,"text":"中選會就是一個舉辦選舉的一個程序性的機關不涉及到公投審議會甚至會涉及到提案本身實質內容的調整併案調整的問題所以我認為我非常贊同介老師的意見公投審議委員會是有必要來恢復"},{"start":9006.954,"end":9010.095,"text":"公投效率拘束年限公投效率拘束年限"},{"start":9029.575,"end":9032.256,"text":"總統大選和國會大選舉行4年一次公投的這句說明如果超過2年很可能會跨"},{"start":9046.98,"end":9049.664,"text":"新的民意、新的政府、新的國會選舉就是選民意志、主權者意志的重新調整"},{"start":9062.822,"end":9062.842,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":9095.083,"end":9097.024,"text":"主席 各位在座的先進剛剛因為時間的關係我拿加州的例子的說明沒有辦法比較明確的來說"},{"start":9114.758,"end":9134.882,"text":"加州這個2010年的這個案子公投案他是加州公平選舉法案裡面用公共資質候選人特別是州務卿的部分讓州務卿可以得到公共的資助而專心於他的事務這個時間2010年討論最後廢止了過去說不能他的時間是適用於2014跟2018"},{"start":9144.67,"end":9162.989,"text":"也就是說我們現在公投說兩年我們政治不要那麼短視政治要放眼長一點的一個這個民主的鞏固跟穩定性讓老百姓來做決定它是州議會通過完之後來交付公民投票它經過兩個門檻"},{"start":9165.131,"end":9186.103,"text":"最後那個詳細的部分它針對很多層次包括你贊成的意見包括反駁的贊成的意見包括你反對的意見反駁反對的意見四個層次反覆的論辯來形成這個案子而最後這些東西都在選舉公報裡面呈現開來"},{"start":9189.085,"end":9213.931,"text":"那個才是真正公投的精神正反兩方而且不斷的思辨下去不是像現在我們落落等然後不知道裡面在講什麼內容我想這個部分有關相關的部會應該仔細的來參考民主先進國家人家怎麼做怎麼來擬定一個比較可長可久他也不是說無限的"},{"start":9214.731,"end":9215.071,"text":"主席"},{"start":9241.403,"end":9250.003,"text":"那 我們與會的機關代表也要回應了嗎好 我們請中選會陳副主委"},{"start":9256.198,"end":9272.157,"text":"中選會這邊做幾點這個剛剛專家學者所提到的這個內容的回應第一就是多案公投案要併在一張選票上在法律上跟實務上均屬不可行"},{"start":9273.138,"end":9273.598,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9295.669,"end":9304.356,"text":"多案公投票 如果併成一票 會導致實務上無法認定有效票或無效票"},{"start":9311.002,"end":9337.079,"text":"差邊的一個原則他如果已經蓋到這個統一票那他可以當作是統一票來處理但是如列在這一張選票中那萬一他蓋的是多個案子中的那個邊緣這個地帶會導致是要認定一票一案無效票還是兩案無效票加上剛剛專家學者也提出來當他這個多案併為這個一票時"},{"start":9340.161,"end":9355.057,"text":"會導致公眾的監督以及在場監察員的監督有實務上極大的困難更會導致在唱票過程中有可能會跳案來唱票所以選舉實務確實也不可行"},{"start":9359.538,"end":9385.429,"text":"最後就是多案這一票的做法在有些國家它之所以有被採行是因為它投票的一個技術投票的一個方法與我國的一個規定有所不同但是我們必須要了解到的是公民對於公眾的社會信任度仍然相信我們現在的投票方式是屬於最好的投票方式"},{"start":9386.449,"end":9412.061,"text":"以各位剛剛所提出來的投票來說有些專家學者說我們應該可以引進電子或網路投票全球可能最期待台灣採選網路投票、電子投票的國家會是我們敵對的境外勢力各位可以想像一下這難道會是我們希望公開、透明、可受公眾監督的選務嗎?"},{"start":9414.803,"end":9421.77,"text":"除此之外如果我們站在公民意志的展現來看應該是一案一票才能展現"},{"start":9422.543,"end":9449.329,"text":"各案公民的意志這也是我們學理上、法律上以及實務上所能夠了解的一個地方其他的議題我們剛剛在報告過程中已經做過初步的意見表達我們認為要維持選務的安定只是一部分要維持國家的安定走向更為理性的討論"},{"start":9451.337,"end":9460.088,"text":"促成更為理性的政黨政治那公投跟選舉應該是要分開辦理委員以上補充好 謝謝有嗎?內政部有嗎?請馬次長"},{"start":9475.821,"end":9498.077,"text":"主席還有各位委員先進那內政部補充一個意見就是說還是強調針對利用身份證連署這個影本連署這樣的一個方式這個對於我們的個資跟目前我們在推動反詐騙跟保護這個我們民眾的資料不至於被濫用"},{"start":9498.677,"end":9499.037,"text":"好,謝謝那"},{"start":9527.718,"end":9530.927,"text":"還有沒有我們學者要第二輪發言?"},{"start":9533.596,"end":9560.444,"text":"如果沒有的話感謝各位專家學者提供寶貴的意見所有初列席人員的發言與提供的書面資料除刊登公報之外我們會另外製作公聽會報告送交本院全體委員會及所有初列席人員參考再次感謝大家的參與跟各位專家學者報告我們今天有準備便當謝謝大家今天的公聽會到此結束先來散會"}]}},{"id":"156858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b4204511ad51eaaec2a0d4a4306ab205ff47afdb3ba1ea30120bd5877b075db005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:10:28 - 09:20:25","影片長度":"00:09:57","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T09:10:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T09:20:25+08:00","duration":597,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.02971875,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.067218750000002,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.94846875,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.88909375,"end":18.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.67784375,"end":25.562843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.832843750000002,"end":27.300968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.452843750000003,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.24909375,"end":39.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.10909375,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.885343750000004,"end":44.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.05346875,"end":46.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.791593750000004,"end":48.141593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.377843750000004,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.04409375,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.59971875,"end":61.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.92846875,"end":94.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.91909375,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.53909375,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.55909375,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.32659375,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.04159375,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.58034375,"end":131.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.48721875,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.72284375,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.08659375000002,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.94284375,"end":162.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.02659375000002,"end":167.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.07221875000002,"end":175.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.32409375,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.56409375,"end":189.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.36846875,"end":195.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.56159375000001,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.89721875,"end":215.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.65971875000002,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.02596875,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.98284375,"end":228.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.09221875,"end":238.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.36909375000002,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.32596875000002,"end":247.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.07659375000003,"end":252.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.37534375,"end":262.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.80846875000003,"end":266.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.01034375,"end":270.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.80721875,"end":276.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.89909375,"end":288.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.52596875,"end":289.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.42034375000003,"end":294.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.85409375,"end":300.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.87846875,"end":301.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.46909375,"end":301.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.59971875,"end":303.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.10159375,"end":309.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.29909375,"end":312.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.47159375,"end":324.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.71846875,"end":328.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.84034375000005,"end":337.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00"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»:"},{"start":61.852,"end":63.734,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案．一、審查：一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查"},{"start":83.05,"end":83.75,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":96.561,"end":98.723,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、"},{"start":114.216,"end":114.717,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":131.556,"end":143.419,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案、第十八條條條文修正草案"},{"start":154.742,"end":174.438,"text":"需要的發展是什麼?根本地區的民意是什麼?中華民國憲法正確條例第十條第二項有規定國家應依民族意願保障援助民族之地位及政治參與並對其教育文化、交通水利、衛生醫療、經濟土地及社會福利、事業益益保障、輔助並促其發展,還要用法律另外訂"},{"start":175.178,"end":192.056,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正�"},{"start":195.62,"end":198.023,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":215.723,"end":218.904,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":245.376,"end":248.72,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":262.859,"end":291.333,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。 中央曾經答應說要彌補我們金門這個球場的損失,但是25年過去從來沒有彌補過。那衛福部說他要推動住院整合照護是為了讓照護員短缺的地區可以透過共聘照護員來降低需求,讓病人可以獲得到良好的照護。結果照護員最短缺的離島地區金門沒有辦法申請。他說這個照護住院整合是為了照護讓離島"},{"start":292.554,"end":294.335,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":323.194,"end":345.47,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案,雖然他們不是離島地區的委員,但他們提出相關離島經濟條例修正本席都是十分的贊成,尤其我看到陳委員跟鄭天偉爭取的是在離島地區原住民的條文修正,那我們至少比照跟原住民一樣的做法。"},{"start":345.99,"end":359.852,"text":"民眾黨說這個設立我們要我們基本地區希望設立醫療特區就是要引中共入關要讓門戶大開那我想民眾黨這樣說是因為他們不了解現在事實上金門地區事實上已經有開放讓"},{"start":361.254,"end":363.556,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":379.428,"end":385.931,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。 所以我們提出這些條例的修正是要讓整個的這個離島地區的這個有關這個相關的比如醫療的部分可以有更大的這個發展。那今天以金門地區來講因為地理位置距離台灣本島比較遠所以這整個醫療網路沒有辦法完善。那我們是希望透過推動離島國際醫療特區來提升我們金門地區的醫療水準然後讓我們的產業可以帶來活水但也不會對台灣這邊的產業產生排擠效應尤其"},{"start":408.82,"end":409.882,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":425.027,"end":426.368,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":446.818,"end":449.299,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":469.511,"end":477.474,"text":"條例第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：第十一條條文修正草案：第十二條條文修正草案：第十三條條文修正草案：第十四條條文修正草案：第十五條條文修正草案：第十六條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條文修正草案：第十八條條"},{"start":487.757,"end":489.278,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":515.902,"end":518.788,"text":"如果我們不能算國際港區,那是賴總統說的是錯誤的喔。"},{"start":520.905,"end":523.367,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":549.086,"end":568.525,"text":"這個本會的這個金門的同仁尤特別是我們民眾黨的同仁吼這個你們大家都很多吼跟一些一些這個比如說像金門連這樣單位都說啊我們提出這樣的啊這個離島條離島條例的修正都是別有用心是啊我真的是別有用心我的用心就是說怎麼樣幫金門找出路這樣的用心金門是位在離島很遠"},{"start":569.966,"end":595.961,"text":"台灣很多人都沒有去過金門也沒有關心過金門也不了解我們金門發展需要的是什麼我們現在所提到的這些不管是金融貿易港區或是離島的這個預要特區都是金門現階段發展所需要的我當然也同意說如果在討論條文的過程中大家對於條文有一些有餘地我們當然可以進行修正但是我們最終只是在爭取跟本島居民一樣平等的待遇而已以上希望大家多多支持謝謝"}]}},{"id":"156857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b809afc6333f2b1e26b270dce3daca9a7f47afdb3ba1ea301d4763c261ae1c13a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:04:23 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對嗎"},{"start":79.323,"end":81.165,"text":"同年9月,實驗教育三法順利通過,讓台灣成為亞洲唯一的法治保障來支持各種形態的國家。"},{"start":110.104,"end":128.43,"text":"實驗教育已經成為父母選擇學校的重要考量學生人數也成長了12倍我們可以看到這張圖部長就會非常清楚的知道實驗教育的人數已經達到了2.5萬在學校形態的有14,326人非學校形態的有11,360人所以我們選擇非學校形態的人數正在上升"},{"start":136.013,"end":149.671,"text":"那剛剛呢,我們部長其實也有提到要多元化那的確在我們的教育基本法上面其實有第8條裡面是賦予說家長可以依法律而選擇受教育的一個方式"},{"start":153.244,"end":173.678,"text":"教育的選擇權是每個家長應該具有的權利而非只有一種次要的選擇這種權利應該要受到尊重而且政府有責任的去確保這種權利不會受到侵害但實驗教育三法裡面也有講到學校在這三法中的學校型態實驗教育實施條例以及國際中等"},{"start":174.258,"end":197.091,"text":"以下教育階段非學校型態實驗教育實施條例裏面也有確定了這個多元化的一個保障所以我想請部長來好好思考我們如何從國家教育權走向國民教育權尤其在12年國教的基本實施計畫裏面其實是有載明了國中小免學費的政策"},{"start":198.782,"end":214.767,"text":"現在高中的實驗教育學生已經享有了政府補助但是我們現在在國民醫務教育階段的實驗教育卻還是沒有相關的學費補助我認為我們不應該讓學費成為一個教育選擇權的一個代名詞"},{"start":216.487,"end":241.882,"text":"我們之前其實已經問過了那當時教育部國教署其實有回覆我們說現在這個已經有針對於低收入戶中低收入戶以及特殊教育學生來有提供補助但我想請教的是部長您是全台所有學生的教育部長而不是只有選擇學校體制的教育部長那您認為我們是不是可以在"},{"start":242.842,"end":244.063,"text":"議員主席議員主席議員主席"},{"start":271.835,"end":294.763,"text":"議務教育階段在這裡邊它還有一些其他的一個學校的一個型態呈現那基本上它還是在一般的我們的這個課程跟上課的一些規劃那我想這裡邊它是一個涉及到比較整體的所以是不是容我們再來更精進的來逐步來"},{"start":295.043,"end":314.87,"text":"好那部長我希望我們就是可以來是不是可以照競速來召集地方相關主管機關來討論補助方案因為其實我們高中職也都高中職都有一些補助嘛那國民義務教育是不是也可以依循這樣子的方式來補助那希望不就是一個月內是不是可以請部長提供一個眼裡的辦法給我呢"},{"start":316.328,"end":341.839,"text":"方向大概辦完因為就整體來看還有一些學校他事實上是受法令上的一些規範對我了解包含這一個修法這可能都不是一個禮拜裡邊就能夠完成的沒有一個月一個月可以嗎我們那個方向我們倒是可以來跟委員報告那一個月內可以來報告是嗎好謝謝"},{"start":343.976,"end":371.562,"text":"那再來就是說其實我之前一直不停的在請部長來支持就是說我們學生自殺自傷的人數一直持續的在上升嘛那我們最近也修了學生輔導法希望可以來加碼支持我們的學生但是我想這個部分我們想要特別強調就是國中端的部分目前我們在國中端其實實務上面它就是一直在增加但是我也收到了這個之前我們其實有問過嘛那其實"},{"start":372.982,"end":390.355,"text":"這個我們也收到了一些回覆啦教育部當時說會給我們一些回覆所以9月16號您的回覆是說有關於本方案往下延伸至國民小學涉及學生適合的心理諮商範圍及聯名範圍心理健康服務內容等等等等是否需要同一學校等等你們要跟衛福部持續的來討論"},{"start":396.725,"end":401.012,"text":"高中以下學生為常見精神疾病治好方族群,應先透過精神醫療診斷。"},{"start":407.003,"end":434.267,"text":"這個是衛福部的一個回應喔那我想問一下因為我們其實現在在15到45歲是有提供這個三次的心理諮商費用雖然說衛福部的回應是說高中以下兒校常見疾病應該要先透過精神醫療來進行診斷但是我們目前還是有提供15到45歲高中生階段就有這三次的服務啊那為什麼國中生可不可以也來研究一下有沒有適合的服務方案呢針對國中生的部分"},{"start":435.56,"end":453.888,"text":"我想這一個也感謝委員的支持我們的學生輔導法確實在這個國中端也做了一些這個專業人力的一個支持那至於是不是比照這個高中生的這個身心調適下這樣的一個三制"},{"start":455.008,"end":482.566,"text":"這是心理諮商不是聲音聲線條是這樣心理諮商這個我想我們我來跟衛福部來研議看怎麼樣來對我想因為既然這部分我就希望就是說再麻煩部長跟署長持續來跟衛福部溝通我們一起來守護學童的心理健康因為每一個孩子都這麼的珍貴尤其在小子化的現在那是不是說一個月以內也可以給我相關的書面報告那我也會再召開會議再邀請署長一起來討論"},{"start":483.587,"end":483.807,"text":"請署署長"},{"start":497.776,"end":514.924,"text":"好我想我們最近一直在討論運動部的事情然後我們也有相關的一些計畫要支持我們的選手我們也有這些全民運動的一些方案等等的那我想先問一個很急的事情因為新興奧這個在2028年奧運項目有一些新興運動"},{"start":517.025,"end":542.999,"text":"那新興運動現在目前在尤其是在這個現代五項裡面其中一個馬術變成了體能障礙的一個運動項目那現在也是有選手喔現在是已經有選手了喔而且現代五項在全運以現在來說有100位未來如果改成體能障礙的話可能人數會增加因為田徑跟游泳的選手可能都會來練這個項目那我想問我們現在有沒有這樣子的場地了報告委員目前沒有"},{"start":543.567,"end":563.421,"text":"目前沒有,好,那我想問一下,因為我們有一個非常重要的,因為2028現在大家都已經開始準備了,我們現在沒有,我們是不是可以把針對新興運動我們所需要的場地,先做一個盤點呢?報委員您剛提到的現代五項的部分,它需要一個封閉的大型場域,需要能夠游泳,能夠有跑步兼射擊,"},{"start":564.401,"end":588.509,"text":"還要能夠做這個極限,這個我們其實是有這樣的場域,只是我們現在正在計劃當中,一直在進展。學長,不好意思,我想說是不只這個,這只是其中一個新興運動的場域,我們是不是可以先做一個盤點,因為這樣我們才能夠去備戰嘛,因為你建場館也要時間嘛,對不對?目前也在做這個案子。但我想先問一下,我們現在這個選手是,應該我想應該是可能是臺體跟國體的吧?對。那請問一下臺體的校長跟國體的校長是不是也可以上來,我們來討論一下。是。"},{"start":605.28,"end":618.451,"text":"請教一下,因為現在五項我們現在是有選手但是我們沒有場地那我們剛剛部長跟署長也都有說我們現在有在做一些研究那我不曉得說臺體或是國體的校長學校裡面是不是可以有提供這樣子的場地空間呢?"},{"start":619.897,"end":644.713,"text":"我們國立體育大學有足夠的場地空間可以來設置這些的運動項目所以針對體能障礙的空間是可以的嗎?可以那臺體呢?我們學校是比較老舊的校區目前恐怕還沒有辦法提供足夠的場地不過我們會配合部裡面的政策來辦理"},{"start":646.722,"end":656.765,"text":"那我現在聽起來部長跟署長就是國體的校長是說他們有場地但是不是可以麻煩我們的國體的來提這個計畫部長跟署長來支持呢我想這一個為國家培養這個體育運動人才能夠在世界發光這本來就是我們的使者我們來跟學校來看怎麼樣來合作來讓這個場地能夠足以提供我們人才的培育"},{"start":676.188,"end":702.146,"text":"我想跟部長跟署長給你們看一張照片這張照片呢其實是它是不是有點類似體能障礙賽的概念那其實現在在有一些公園在我過去在民間的時候我有都有爭取一些那我希望國體喔未來如果我們蓋了這個園區之後這個體能障礙的設施的之後呢是不是也都可以開放讓民間的孩子從小十幾歲的時候國中生需要體能挑戰的時候也可以一起來使用呢"},{"start":704.821,"end":719.04,"text":"校長、署長、部長的意見是否可以開放呢?其實我以前擔任過國立體育大學的總務長其實當時學校我們當時也希望能夠做這樣的設施不過對學校同仁來講比較大的困擾在於兒童的安全當他從上面掉下來的時候"},{"start":720.842,"end":734.771,"text":"全責劃分可以用青少年的方式來界定嗎?最主要也是青少年的來使用嗎?最主要是願不願意開放?是不是可以開放?是可以的嗎?校長您的看法是?"},{"start":735.211,"end":753.598,"text":"有關這個如果是以這個競技運動的這個專業來看的話我們當然可以設計屬於比較年輕因為這種體能障礙賽他可以從年輕到競技只是這個是一個比較需要充分溝通跟設計謝謝"},{"start":754.858,"end":771.614,"text":"那不好意思喔那因為時間有限我想到時候就麻煩校長看看我們的空間是不是有一個給青少年的然後一個給專業的這可能就由校長這樣來評估來做規劃跟設計那就麻煩部長跟署長一起來支持那我最後快快的問一個問題喔就是說這是今天的新聞齁就是這個"},{"start":773.235,"end":794.404,"text":"全中運的金牌教練他面臨失業因為這個體育所的計畫延續沒有消息那我們現在其實大部分都是用約聘僱的一個計畫來聘請這些教練但是我覺得有一個很重要的問題如果我們希望我們的孩子可以有一個持續的運動跟運動表現的話教練一年一聘的這個問題是不是沒有辦法延續這個訓練呢"},{"start":795.925,"end":811.712,"text":"包委員這兩個層面第一層面以這個議題來講我們現在原額要給各縣市已經快要核定了那我想教練們可能會擔心自己沒有工作但其實我們原額是跟過去一樣所以其實這個教練其實在台中縣理論上縣政府如果他表現不錯的話應該會繼續給他那我們原額是沒有變的"},{"start":813.433,"end":842.1,"text":"但是我們還是用醫院聘僱還是是用教育人員目前一樣是用醫院聘僱因為這公務人員的缺是地方必須要開第二件事情是這些的教練其實是地方政府應該要能夠負擔我們中央是來做補助但不是中央的主要的責任但我想因為其實教育如果可以用教育人員來聘僱的話團體的意見是希望說這對抱歉我直接我先趕快講完就是教練可能對教練來說會是會比較穩定那我不曉得我覺得可以來研議一下那既然地方是地方的原因那中央我們自己部立的"},{"start":842.6,"end":848.171,"text":"高中跟大學是不是可以優先來研議?用教育人員來聘用?是,這個我們來遵照辦理來研議,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,部長、署長請回喔。謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。今天想要跟你來談談一個實驗教育的問題，首先想要請教部長，您對於實驗教育跟體制教育的看法是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我覺得因為人類的存在，他的美是因為個別差異，每一個人在我們政府提供的一個體制內的教育，當然他維持有一定的水準，那我基本上的一個看法是，當我們的供給量遠大於需求量，我們政府應該主動去鼓勵，也應該把那個友善的環境，讓有一定比例的這些青少年或者學生有一個另類的學習機會，我想這是我基本上的看法。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我聽起來就是部長您認為要多元性、多樣性，讓每一個人可以擁有適合自己的教育模式，尤其在現在少子化的狀態之下，對嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想要講一下，因為這個理念我們是一致的，2014年在臺灣史上有一個很重要的轉折點，就是我們半個世紀以來最大一次的教育改革，在同年9月我們的實驗教育三法也順利通過，讓臺灣成為亞洲唯一一個以法制保障、支持各種型態的國家。這10年來我們的實驗教育從1%變成到今年已經走到了10%，所以實驗教育已經成為父母在選擇學校的一個重要考量，學生人數也成長了12倍。","我們可以看到這張圖，部長就會非常清楚的知道，實驗教育的人數已經達到了2.5萬人，在學校型態的有1萬4,326人，非學校型態的有1萬1,360人，所以其實我們選擇非學校型態的人數正在上升。剛剛部長其實也有提到要多元化，的確在我們的教育基本法第八條裡面賦予家長可以依法律選擇受教育的方式。教育的選擇權是每個家長應該具有的權利，而非只有一種次要的選擇，這種權利應該要受到尊重，而且政府有責任確保這種權利不會受到侵害。","在實驗教育三法裡也有講到，這三法中的「學校型態實驗教育實施條例」以及「高級中等以下教育階段非學校型態實驗教育實施條例」裡面也有確立了多元化保障。所以我想請部長好好思考，我們如何從國家教育權走向國民教育權？尤其在十二年國教的基本實施計畫裡其實是有載明了國中小免學費的政策。現在高中的實驗教育學生已經享有政府補助，但在國民義務教育階段的實驗教育卻還是沒有相關的學費補助，我認為我們不應該讓學費成為一個教育選擇權的代名詞。","其實我們之前已經問過了，當時國教署其實有回復我們說，現在已經有針對低收入戶、中低收入戶以及特殊教育學生提供補助。但我想請教的是，部長，您是全台所有學生的教育部長，而不是只有選擇學校體制學生的教育部長，您認為我們是不是可以再研議來爭取實驗教育中國民義務教育階段的學費補助呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，確實以實驗教育非學校型態的，除了有一些經濟條件不錯的，但是對於這些中低收入戶或者低收入戶、特殊學生，這部分我們來研議，看怎麼樣……"],["張委員雅琳：這部分已經有了，這邊會有補助啦！我現在講的是所有選擇國民義務階段實驗教育的學生。"],["鄭部長英耀：因為在義務教育階段還有一些其他學校的型態呈現，基本上它還是在一般的課程跟上課的一些規範，我想是涉及比較整體的，所以是不是容我們再更精進的逐步來……"],["張委員雅琳：好，部長，我希望我們可以儘速召集地方相關主管機關來討論補助方案，因為其實我們高中職也都有一些補助，那國民義務教育是不是也可以依循這樣的方式來補助？能否請部長在一個月內提供一個研擬的辦法給我？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為就整體來看，還有一些學校事實上是受法令上的一些規範。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我瞭解。"],["鄭部長英耀：包含這一個修法，可能都不是在一個禮拜以內就能夠完成。"],["張委員雅琳：沒有，一個月，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們的方向倒是可以來跟委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：一個月內可以來報告是嗎？好，謝謝。再來，我之前一直不停的請部長支持，就是我們學生自殺、自傷的人數一直持續上升，我們最近也修了學生輔導法，希望可以來加碼支持我們的學生。但我想特別強調國中端的部分，目前我們在國中端其實實務上面就是一直在增加。","之前我們其實也有問過，教育部當時說會給我們一些回復，所以9月16日您的回復是說，有關於本方案往下延伸至國民小學，涉及學生適合的心理諮商範圍、年齡範圍、心理健康服務內容、是否需要通知學校等等，你們要跟衛福部持續的來討論。後來我們這邊有收到，說高中以下的學生是為常見的精神疾病之好發族群，所以衛福部的建議是應該要先透過精神醫療來進行診斷，這個是衛福部的回應。","我想問一下，因為我們現在對15到45歲其實是有提供三次的心理諮商費用，雖然衛福部的回應是說，高中以下兒少常見疾病應該要先透過精神醫療來進行診斷，但是我們目前還是有提供15到45歲高中生階段就有這三次的服務，那國中生可不可以也來研究一下，有沒有適合的服務方案呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的支持，我們的學生輔導法確實在國中端也做了一些專業人力的支持，至於是不是比照高中生三次的身心調適假，我想我們可以……"],["張委員雅琳：不是，是心理諮商，不是身心調適假。"],["鄭部長英耀：心理諮商這個我想我來跟衛福部研議，看怎麼樣來……"],["張委員雅琳：對，這部分我希望再麻煩部長跟署長持續跟衛福部溝通，我們一起來守護學童的心理健康，因為每一個孩子都這麼的珍貴，尤其在少子化的現在，是不是一個月以內也可以給我相關的書面報告？我也會再召開會議，邀請署長一起來討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。再來我想討論一個問題，這個可能要請體育署署長上來。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張委員雅琳：我們最近一直在討論運動部的事情，也有一些相關的計畫要支持我們的選手，我們也有全民運動的一些方案等等。我想先問一個很急的事情，因為2028年的奧運項目有一些新興運動，尤其在現代五項裡面，其中馬術變成了體能障礙的運動項目。現在是已經有選手了，而且現代五項目前在全運有100位，未來如果改成體能障礙的話，可能人數會增加，因為田徑跟游泳的選手，可能都會來練這個項目。我想問現在有沒有這樣子的場地了？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前沒有。"],["張委員雅琳：目前沒有，那我想問一下，因為2028現在大家都已經開始準備了，我們現在沒有，我們是不是可以針對新興運動所需要的場地先做一個盤點呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，您剛剛提到現代五項的部分，它需要一個封閉的大型場域，能夠游泳、跑步兼射擊，還要能夠做極限，我們其實是有這樣的場域，只是我們現在正在計畫當中、正在進行。"],["張委員雅琳：署長，不好意思，我想說的是不只這個，這只是其中一個。新興運動的場域我們是不是可以先做一個盤點？因為這樣我們才能夠去備戰嘛！因為你建場館也要時間。"],["鄭署長世忠：目前有在委託這個案子了。"],["張委員雅琳：我想先問一下，我們現在的選手應該是臺體跟國體的吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：請問臺體跟國體的校長是不是也可以上來，我們來討論一下？我想請教，因為現代五項我們現在是有選手，但是沒有場地，剛剛部長和署長也都有說，我們現在有在做一些研究，那我想請問臺體或是國體的校長，你們學校裡面是不是有提供這樣子的場地空間呢？"],["邱校長炳坤：我們國立體育大學有足夠的場地空間可以來設置這些運動項目。"],["張委員雅琳：所以針對這些體能障礙的空間是可以的嗎？"],["邱校長炳坤：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：臺體呢？"],["許校長光麃：我們學校是比較老舊的校區，目前恐怕還沒有辦法提供足夠的場地，不過我們會配合部裡面的政策來辦理。"],["張委員雅琳：好，現在聽起來國體的校長是說他們有場地，那是不是可以麻煩國體來提這個計畫，部長和署長來支持？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想為國家培養體育運動人才，能夠在世界發光，這本來就是我們的職責，我們來跟學校看怎麼樣合作，讓這個場地能夠足以提供人才的培育。"],["張委員雅琳：我想給部長跟署長看一張照片，這張照片是不是有點類似體能障礙賽的概念？其實現在有一些公園，我過去在民間的時候都有爭取。我希望國體未來如果蓋了這個體能障礙的設施之後，是不是也都可以開放，讓民間的孩子從小、十幾歲的時候，國中生需要體能挑戰的時候，也可以一起來使用呢？校長、署長、部長的意見如何？是否可以開放呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：其實我以前擔任過國立體育大學的總務長，當時我們學校也希望能夠做這樣的設施，不過對學校同仁來講，比較大的困擾在於兒童的安全，當他從上面掉下來的時候，這個權責的劃分會是一大……"],["張委員雅琳：我想我們可以用青少年的方式來界定。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，這部分我們再來研究。"],["張委員雅琳：因為它最主要也是青少年來使用，最主要是願不願意開放，是不是可以開放？是可以嗎？校長，您的看法如何？"],["邱校長炳坤：如果是以競技運動的專業來看的話，我們當然可以設計屬於比較年輕，因為這種體能障礙賽可以從年輕到競技，只是這是比較需要充分溝通跟設計，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：好。不好意思！因為時間有限，我想到時候就麻煩校長看看我們的空間是不是可以有一個給青少年的，另一個給專業的，這可能就由校長來評估、規劃跟設計，那就麻煩部長跟署長一起來支持。","我最後很快地問一個問題。這是今天的新聞，就是全中運的金牌教練面臨失業，因為體育署的計畫延續沒有消息。我們現在其實大部分都是用約聘僱的計畫來聘請這些教練，但是我覺得有一個很重要的問題。如果我們希望我們的孩子可以有一個持續的運動跟運動表現的話，教練一年一聘的問題是不是沒有辦法延續訓練呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個包含兩個層面。第一個層面，以這個議題來講，我們現在員額要給各縣市已經快要核定了，教練們可能會擔心自己沒有工作，但其實我們員額是跟過去一樣。這個教練在臺東縣，理論上縣政府如果覺得他表現不錯的話，應該會繼續給他，我們員額是沒有變的。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們是用約聘僱還是用教育人員來……"],["鄭署長世忠：目前一樣是用約聘僱，因為這個公務人員的缺是地方必須要開的；第二件事情是，這些教練其實是地方政府應該要能夠負擔的，我們中央是來做補助，但不是中央主要的責任。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我想如果可以用教育人員來聘僱的話，團體的意見是希望說這對……抱歉！時間有限，我趕快講完。可能對教練來說會比較穩定，我覺得可以來研議一下。既然地方是地方的員額，那中央我們自己部立的高中跟大學是不是可以優先來研議用教育人員來聘任？"],["鄭署長世忠：是，這個我們來遵照辦理研議，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長、署長請回，謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢。","再來我們請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基\n金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基\n金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金；三、審查114年度行政法人國\n家運動訓練中心預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00006"}}},{"id":"156967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bc04b315afb696f97f5866fb8dd1f931552a6fe36446873e6123a4db8f526838d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:25:40 - 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於STEM領域的比例自2008學年到2022學年"},{"start":139.055,"end":162.751,"text":"十五年的時間雖然女性的占比確實有微幅的提升從22.7%到26.16%其實也提升了3.46%而已那除了說這個提升的幅度不高以外其實整體的比例還是偏低啦那我們再看看大專院校各領域學生人數的性別比"},{"start":163.651,"end":190.592,"text":"這個性別隔離的現象還是很明顯尤其是像說資訊、通訊、科技或者是工程、製造、營建等等這些領域女性的占比還是真的偏低都不到三成那我可以理解說教育部、我們國科會其實都有注意到這個問題所以我們也推動了很不少策略要鼓勵女性來投入這個STEM的領域那想要請教部長"},{"start":191.232,"end":209.169,"text":"在這些諸多的策略女性在STEM領域占比持續偏低可是卻沒有明顯提升你認為原因是什麼那是不是要怎麼樣處理才有機會讓她突破超過三成部長"},{"start":211.571,"end":233.661,"text":"謝謝關心我們高等教育人才培育確實他是關係到我們產業是不是能夠在全球繼續引領風潮當領頭羊那我想這是非常有價值的那我利用這個機會我要再一次的感謝我們所有的大學校長為什麼其實當我們看到STEM或者所謂的理工科的學生因為少子"},{"start":234.301,"end":237.004,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部主管47所屬單位預算案有關教育部所屬機"},{"start":249.275,"end":255.237,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":275.984,"end":303.934,"text":"能夠怎麼樣更清楚理解我們整個人才培育跟產業上的一個需求對 陳盧部長您剛講就是說我們教育部其實就是有跨領域就是說我們2021就有開始推動大專院校這個STEM領域及女性研發人才的培育計畫就是陳盧部長您說的我們是鼓勵學生跟教研人員來投入STEM領域以及跨領域的研究"},{"start":304.634,"end":306.416,"text":"教育部所屬機教育部所屬機教育部所屬機教育部所屬機教育部所屬機教育部所屬機教育部所屬機"},{"start":323.331,"end":346.006,"text":"二十四個學校、四十三個案子到今年才只有11個學校、15個案子全臺灣大約有150所大專院校可是參與你這個計畫的人其實看起來並不多所以你不曉得就講到部長說你有沒有掌握說到底原因在哪裡那是審核比較嚴格還是說參與這種計畫的學校這個興趣缺缺"},{"start":349.816,"end":369.903,"text":"根文報告其實就我的理解現在的大學特別國立大學裡邊他們不管透過通識或者有許多的畢業上的對他們學校的一個特色發展人那個能力的培養比如說Coding這個程式設計等等的這些東西大概都已經列為現在年輕人他的一個基本的一個能力素養"},{"start":370.583,"end":383.725,"text":"那當然委員所提的那個絕對的一個數字我會後我再來瞭解但是我相信以我們現在國立大學大部分的學校在這個部分他們並沒有我我我"},{"start":384.542,"end":395.132,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所屬基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":402.878,"end":422.77,"text":"因為我們有觀察這項計畫的預算編列2022年度是2億那2023跟今年的預算也差不多2億多可是我們看明年的預算我們要省明年的預算就上升到3億2千多所以支持女性教研人員的培育女學生"},{"start":423.61,"end":448.941,"text":"其實有頂多加碼到一個案子400萬最高那所以我不曉得說為什麼這個本來都2億多要怎麼允許每年變成3億2千多我們本來就是認可這個特別對女性的這個STEM的人才、跨域人才上的培養本來就是大家共同的一個核心價值那也是大學校長他們都積極在推動那就要再積極push"},{"start":449.421,"end":466.236,"text":"因為很明顯嘛案子越來越少就是說參加的學校也越來越少可是我們經費確實是一直在編越來越多所以這個可能部裡頭可能還要這個參與的大概我們的數據都超過一半以上在你信這一個STEAM的這一個部分"},{"start":467.577,"end":484.429,"text":"除了支持女性投入STEM領域外鼓勵非理工人才跨界到STEM領域也是一種方法所以教育部去年也有推出STEM領域學士後專班"},{"start":485.75,"end":505.289,"text":"去年也是合併9個學校有33個班可是只有4個學校然後6個班開班今年我們合併了17個學校開了32個班可是9月開始的秋季班其實也只有5個學校6個班來開班所以看起來成班率不是很理想"},{"start":505.629,"end":525.698,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我自己從大學來,我也了解,因為有一些學校他考慮到他師資的這個能量,怎麼樣確保教育的品質,那有一些學校他能夠來支持這個配合政策去培養更多人才學事後"},{"start":527.639,"end":546.746,"text":"學運班的這樣一個人才當然我們心存感激但是也確實許多大學端他們本來就已經在跨領域所以在校生不管是人文社會科學的學院的學院他隨時都也學校也都提供一個跨領域或者學位學程或者已經幾多年的管道在培養我們的人才"},{"start":550.427,"end":551.789,"text":"有大學校內性別友善廁所發生偷拍事件"},{"start":568.847,"end":582.752,"text":"學生向學校的性評會申訴後,發生承辦人員硬打的態度,有一些失專業的態度,讓學生感到無奈。經過學校處理後,該名的承辦人員已經掉離現職。可是性評委員指出,該學校的性評會應該要設置兩名承辦人員,"},{"start":594.877,"end":610.784,"text":"學校端到現在還沒有找到第二個人員以至於說這個性評會其實到現在還是只有一個專責人員在處理那麼龐大的業務那我想用這個案子其實我們可以來好好的檢視就是說其實"},{"start":613.365,"end":630.922,"text":"我們現在性平意識抬頭所以其實各校通報性平的案件其實是逐年上升所以我們勢必要有充足的人力來處理這個相關的性平業務所以我想說面對這樣的問題現況當然我們很清楚知道啦就人才招募很困難"},{"start":632.323,"end":655.278,"text":"專業性不足,人員更迭也很頻繁因為你這個其實是要有很專業的他可能要去做一些定期的培訓他有相關的背景所以我想這個人員的招聘不是那麼容易可是我覺得我們還是要想辦法去處理這件事情所以是不是教育部這邊要來輔導學校學校端來好好處理性平人員的事"},{"start":659.241,"end":659.401,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":680.12,"end":699.493,"text":"我們一起來努力我們不能讓性平位好像空有性平位在那裡可是實際上功能不彰就有學生指出說現在學校的性平位很像沒吃飽又沒睡飽的菜鳥餵兵缺乏人力跟資源事實上是嚴重的"},{"start":700.974,"end":703.477,"text":"各級學校性評會設置辦法與要點學務處、秘書處主責性評相關業務指派專人行政業務學校性評會規模大"},{"start":721.175,"end":728.925,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":739.645,"end":765.399,"text":"我們來努力來跟大學端來合作看怎麼樣來促成這樣的一個提升這個因為我覺得是這樣第一個要盤點就是我們有多少比例的學校是沒有定期來實施所謂職工的性品的這個在職進修那對於這個各級學校行政人力不足的部分我想教育部也要來努力好不好因為這部分其實性品案件層出不窮"},{"start":766.36,"end":768.184,"text":"學校要有機制、有能力來處理這個問題"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時25分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。臺灣的科技產業在國際上現在有非常亮眼的表現，所以我想科技島的形象在國際舞台確實是有聲有色，不只半導體產業，還有我們的人工智慧、太空發展等等。我想這些對於國家的經濟、國力是至關重要的場域，所以臺灣勢必要維持這樣的一個引領的作用，要強化軟硬體，才能不被世界超車，重點就是完善的人才培育，這是一個非常重要的基本不過的事情，所以STEM領域的人才培養更是重中之重。","大家最近都在說人才荒，各國面臨STEM人才短缺的問題，臺灣當然也不例外，我們來看一些數據。從2016學年度開始，大專院校STEM領域學生的占比有微幅的提升。在2023學年的占比微升到34.2%，但整體的人數是持續下降的。2011學年的時候還有48萬人，到2023學年的時候只剩37萬人。當然我們知道這是受整體少子化的浪潮影響，可是如果說臺灣的競爭力因為少子化的浪潮所淹沒，我想也不是大家樂見的。所以本席認為，如何培養更多的女力來加入STEM的領域，或許是一個解決困境的解方。","我們檢視一下高等教育女性畢業於STEM領域的比例，自2008學年到2022學年，15年的時間雖然女性的占比確實有微幅的提升，從22.7%到26.16%，其實也提升了3.46%而已。除了提升的幅度不高以外，其實整體的比例還是偏低。我們再看看大專院校各領域學生人數的性別比，這個性別隔離的現象還是很明顯，尤其是像資訊、通訊的科技，或者是工程、製造、營建等等這些領域，女性的占比還是真的偏低，都不到三成。我可以理解教育部、國科會其實都有注意到這個問題，所以我們也推動了不少策略要鼓勵女性來投入STEM的領域。那想要請教部長，採取了諸多的策略，女性在STEM領域占比卻持續偏低，沒有明顯提升，部長你認為原因是什麼？要怎麼樣處理才有機會讓它突破超過三成？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心我們高等教育人才培育，確實它是關係到我們產業是不是能夠在全球繼續引領風潮，當領頭羊。我想這是非常有價值的，我利用這個機會，我要再次的感謝我們所有的大學校長。為什麼？其實當我們看到STEM或者所謂的理工科的學生，因為人口少子化的關係，它有絕對值上的一個減少，但是事實上我們因為大學這些年來的跨領域，我們連文學院中文系的學生都在學AI，也就是說我們許多人文社會科學管理的這一個所謂人文社會科學，他在大學端裡邊因為他的興趣，他也可以自己開發app。所以我覺得我們過去的這個統計數字，比較是傳統的一個思維，就是說都是理工的才叫做STEM，可是我們潛在的人文社會這個部分，事實上有很多年輕人已經在跨域學習。所以在未來能夠怎麼樣更清楚理解，我們整個人才培育跟產業上的一個需求，我想這個我們來……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，誠如部長您剛講，我們教育部其實有跨領域，就是說我們2021就開始推動大專院校STEM領域及女性研發人才培育計畫，誠如部長您說的，我們是鼓勵學生跟教研人員來投入STEM領域以及跨領域的研究，那當然我們要建立所謂的女性友善的學習研發環境。可是我們來看教育部在2021核定了28校有55個案，隔年核定38校有92個案，可是2023年又降到24個學校、43個案子，到今年才只有11個學校、15個案子。全臺灣大約有150所大專院校，可是參與你這個計畫的學校，其實看起來並不多，不曉得部長你有沒有掌握到底原因在哪裡？是審核比較嚴格，還是說學校對參與這種計畫興趣缺缺？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，其實就我的理解，現在的大學，特別是國立大學裡面，他們不管透過通識，或者有許多對他們學校的特色發展，那個能力的培養，譬如說coding這個程式設計等等的這些東西，大概都已經列為現在年輕人的一個基本的能力素養。那當然委員所提的那個絕對的數值，我會後再來了解，但是我相信以我們現在國立大學，大部分的學校在這個部分，我簡單來說就是他們並不會因為沒有這個計畫就在人才培育圖像上的減少。"],["林委員宜瑾：我們當然也希望精益求精……"],["鄭部長英耀：這個部分我們來看這個計畫數的減少到底是因為經費或者因為什麼樣的原因，我想會後我來更仔細的……"],["林委員宜瑾：好，因為我們如果觀察這項計畫的預算編列，2022年度是2億，那2023跟今年的預算也差不多二億多，可是我們看明年的預算，我們要審明年的預算，就上升到三億二千多。所以這個支持女性教研人員的培育女學生，其實也頂多加碼到一個案子最高400萬。所以我不曉得這個本來都二億多，為什麼明年突然變成三億二千多？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們本來就是認可這個，特別是女性的STEM的人才，跨域人才上的培養本來就是大家共同的核心價值，大學校長他們也是都積極在推動。"],["林委員宜瑾：那就要再積極push，因為很明顯嘛！案子越來越少，就是說參加的學校也越來越少，可是我們經費確實是一直在編越來越多，所以這個部裡頭可能還要……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們現在參與的大概我們的數據都超過一半以上，在女性STEM的這一個部分。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那我說除了支持女性來投入這個STEM的領域外，鼓勵非理工的，就如同您剛剛講的非理工的人才跨界到這個STEM的領域，也是一種方法。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以教育部去年也有推出STEM的領域學士後專班，去年也是核定9個學校有33個班，可是只有4個學校，然後6個班開班。今年我們核定了17個學校，開了32個班，可是9月開始的秋季班，其實也只有5個學校，6個班來開班，所以看起來成班率不是很理想。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我自己從大學來，我也了解，因為有一些學校考慮到師資的這一個能量，怎麼樣確保教育的品質，那有一些學校能夠來支持，配合政策去培養更多的人才，學士後這個學分班的這樣一個人才。當然我們心存感激，但是也確實許多大學端他們本來就已經在跨領域，所以在校生不管是人文社會科學學院的學生，學校也都提供一個跨領域或者學位學程……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，就是我們多元的提供管道。"],["鄭部長英耀：或者多元的管道在培養我們的人才。"],["林委員宜瑾：既然有那麼好的案子，我是覺得還是要……"],["鄭部長英耀：這我們來努力。"],["林委員宜瑾：來檢討，來更精進的作為，讓這個案子可以充分的被利用。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：我接著要跟您討論，就是之前有大學的校內性別友善廁所發生偷拍的事件，學生向學校的性平會申訴後，卻發生承辦人員應答有一些失專業的態度，讓學生感到很無奈。經過學校處理之後，其實該名承辦人員，我們知道他已經調離現職，可是性平委員就指出，該學校的性平會其實應該要設置兩名的承辦人員，可是學校端到現在還沒有找到第二個人員，以至於這個性平會其實到現在還是只有一個專責人員在處理那麼龐大的業務。","我想用這個案子我們可以來好好的檢視，就是說我們現在性平意識抬頭，各校通報性平的案件其實是逐年上升，所以我們勢必要有充足的人力來處理相關的性平業務。我想面對這樣的問題，現況當然我們很清楚知道，就是人才招募很困難、專業性不足、人員更迭也很頻繁，因為這個其實是很專業的，可能要去做一些定期的培訓，有相關的什麼背景，所以這個人員的招聘不是那麼容易，可是我覺得我們還是要想辦法去處理這件事情。所以是不是教育部這邊要來輔導學校端好好的處理這個性平人員的事？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想性別平權已經是普世的價值，那我們所有的校長也都在現場，他們都聽到了，我相信在人力上怎麼樣讓他提供一個適當的專業人力，來協助學校性平工作的一個推動，我想我們一起來努力。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，我們不能讓性平會就是好像空有這個性平會在那裡，可是實際上功能不彰。有學生就指出現在學校的性平會很像沒吃飽又沒睡飽的菜鳥衛兵，就是缺乏人力跟資源，這個事實上是嚴重的。那我們再檢視各級學校的性平會設置辦法跟要點，當然這個是學務處跟秘書處來主責性平的相關業務，我想幾乎都有寫到要指派專人去辦理這個行政業務。那也有學校性平會規模比較大，所以會有兩個專責人員，我還是期待我們教育部必須要來掌握，就是我們是不是要好好的來輔導各級學校性平會的專責行政人員到底有沒有聘足這件事情，好不好？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來努力，來跟大學端合作，看怎麼樣來促成與提升這個品質。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，因為我覺得是這樣，第一個要盤點，就是我們有多少比例的學校沒有定期實施所謂職工的性平的在職進修。對於各級學校行政人力不足的部分，我想教育部也要來努力，好不好？因為這部分其實性平案件層出不窮，我覺得學校要有那個機制、有能力來處理這個問題，好不好？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，謝謝委員指正。"],["主席（范委員雲）：好，謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢，部長請回，我們下一位是張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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以參與部長可不可以承諾"},{"start":382.384,"end":409.777,"text":"謝謝跟委員報告我們目前行政內部事實上在以國發會啟動本來我們在人才培育裡邊在人力的義孤他就有一個跨部會的一個所以現在全臺灣未來的人才是國發會在管不是教育部在管嗎我們當然也參與接下來這個平台到底要是誰我們現在一問了這個跨部會平台大家會在踢教育部踢國發會國發會踢國科會國科會又踢給辦公室到底是誰教育部長您能不能"},{"start":410.157,"end":437.948,"text":"感謝委員的一個提醒委員當然也是一種方式就是說在人才培育我們有更積極的成立一個那不然我們這麼多大學校長在這裡聽您說話幹嘛呢我們請國發會來就好啦人才培育嘛謝謝委員謝謝委員提醒我想我們可以更細膩的針對這個人才來組成這個小組我們來努力教育部可不可以直接啦我想教育部很重要希望可以跟行政院爭取那同時我們談到人才培育"},{"start":438.928,"end":467.358,"text":"其實我們也看到一些亂象其實我非常多次的質詢也都提起現在的這個多元入學很可能被坊間稱作多錢入學學習歷程檔案一個單一PTF只能上傳4M影片只能傳幾秒鐘就算了我們這個持續追蹤但是還是希望可以提高但是現在的問題是什麼有貧富不均的問題我們一再的詢問坊間一再的提醒教育部一再的說沒有但是怎麼樣"},{"start":468.138,"end":490.235,"text":"所有的課程都還在銷售甚至還有雙11特價蝦皮上面的所有的東西還賣出什麼?有的賣出10萬份有的賣出4.7萬份還評價很高五星好評到底有多少學生都用這些所謂的銷售的這種方式付費的方式來做多錢入學"},{"start":490.615,"end":519.153,"text":"那沒有錢的學生是不是不公平老師有沒有辦法去分辨出這些付費的服務這種做法難道是教育部想要的嗎同時啦我想接下來我們還有很多同學的這些資料很可能是用AI產生的AI也可能要付錢AI做出來的東西老師目前也沒有工具可以評斷接下來排山倒海而來的這些資料有的是付錢的有的是AI做的到底我們應該要怎麼做無獨有偶"},{"start":519.753,"end":543.669,"text":"近年來我們還推動了什麼呢?APCS的徵選有越來越多的名額要採用這個徵選的方式雖然報名考試的費用是教育部來支持的但是補習班如雨後春筍出來我想我們剛剛列了一系列的問題其實都在講我們的教育的方針跟政策不能變成多錢入學"},{"start":544.269,"end":553.157,"text":"有錢的人就可以入學部長面對多元入學變成多錢入學教育商品化我們一定要打擊這樣的現象教育部有沒有探討背後的原因"},{"start":554.588,"end":576.984,"text":"感謝委員的指導確實我想教育多元化我們就希望肯定人他就是有個別差異所以才希望他在生涯的發展金錢的個別差異嗎?能力的個別差異嗎?所以能力比較差的就要去補習嗎?不是,所以我們多元的入學管道本來就是因應學生希望他能夠適性能夠一個發展更好的發展"},{"start":580.566,"end":592.174,"text":"所以剛才委員所提的當然不是教育部所樂意看到的那我們也知道民間的業者有時候他當然在招生的一個手法或者從利潤上的一個考量"},{"start":611.146,"end":630.634,"text":"進一步的研議可以提供給本席有專家也提出善用AI工具當然有壞的就是他可能會偽造是自己做的但也有好的提升他的能力那我想請教一下部長您知道114學年度在中小學的階段一共編列多少預算來推動數位平權"},{"start":636.906,"end":645.33,"text":"跟委員報告在這個數位評審的這個部分數位學習的精進方案有27億27億除以200再來"},{"start":649.301,"end":665.649,"text":"其實就是這個答案沒錯啊有將近2億然後還有一個BYOD沒關係我們算過了啦每一個小學每一個中小學生平均起來大概就是3塊錢那一個月呢其實就是幾十塊錢跟這個我們營養午餐比起來相差18倍"},{"start":671.332,"end":697.442,"text":"這些錢可能要存一年才能買一個月的確GPT的費用我想確GPT一個月要20塊美金教育部如果真的有心要推動數位平權AI平權要讓不只是中小學的學生我們的大專院校的電腦教室我們的高等教育的這些同學都應該要有能力來使用這些服務完全看不出來教育部推動這些數位平權的決心這部分教育部長可不可以承諾來檢討一下"},{"start":699.605,"end":712.336,"text":"我想我們確實一直在努力因為以實際性剛才委員事實上在這個CHAT GPT這個OpenAI確實在整個學習跟教學上影響是很深遠的我們講的是數位平權的預算好不好再麻煩再討論一下"},{"start":716.259,"end":730.256,"text":"接下來其實還有很大的問題是我們的數位素養啦恭喜啦我們的運算思維全球第一但是我們的資訊素養現在是排名第四但是加起來75%的人都只有基本的能力是什麼呢我用一張圖來表示"},{"start":731.778,"end":754.674,"text":"所有的這些學生所有的這些年輕人在沒有好的資訊素養教育情況之下變得很會吃不會挑這其實不是我們要看到的年輕人在數位世界裡的能力啦在各國包含美國歐洲日本都開始持續加強定義我們的數位素養而且應該要持續的來幫助他們否則就會遇到一些很不好的現象"},{"start":755.755,"end":778.442,"text":"這個是近期發生的一個悲劇有一個14歲的年輕人接下來非常多的人都在用AI結果沉迷AI聊天最後輕生到底我們台灣的學生不管是高等教育的不管是中小學生使用AI的比率使用的方法使用的是付費還免費教育部有沒有進行調查"},{"start":779.383,"end":801.394,"text":"首先謝謝委員我還是要先感謝我們全國的中小學老師讓我們的學生能夠在國際的評比在這個面對問題他的一個邏輯思考分析問題他能夠在世界這個排名第一那另外他的科技的一個素養事實上也明面堅保辨別真假的素養"},{"start":802.274,"end":830.124,"text":"我想這個不管怎麼樣它是一個國際評比然後它對臺灣的一個教育我們八年級的學生我想這個部分還是要真的要肯定我們老師的用心肯定嘛但是剛才委員所提的這個AI確實國外有許多的研究證據包括在今年裡面美國有一本書的我剛剛不好意思部長我打斷您齁因為這個主席先站起來我問的是臺灣臺灣的AI工具使用的比率跟現狀"},{"start":840.239,"end":853.064,"text":"教育部的學習平台上面我們有的AI工具每一天的10月份的話上課平均大概是3.3萬名學生那其他的部分我們沒有做一個全面的調查"},{"start":853.684,"end":871.11,"text":"在這裡具體向教育部提出兩點要求第一請教育部參考國外對數位素養的研究尤其是這些真假資訊的吸收跟辨別的能力參考他們的定義兩個月內來調整我們的數位教學指引中小學數位教學指引跟數位素養有關的定義"},{"start":871.67,"end":899.909,"text":"第二請教育部研議定期針對各個教育階段的學生進行AI工具使用情形的調查研議結果希望一個月內與書面回覆本席以上兩點部長可不可以承諾謝謝委員的關心確實因為AI所以我們在8月開學前就有一個數位指引給家長給小學給老師使用的狀況而且不是只是使用你們提供的工具不要活在平行時空"},{"start":901.97,"end":912.697,"text":"我相信所有的校長都非常關心希望知道這個數據主席也會很想知道好不好麻煩部長我們一定會再來更進一步的報告這個瞭解跟我們報告謝謝獨居委員的質詢部長等請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時41分）謝謝主席，有請教育部鄭英耀部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長早。我想一樣向所有的校長還有先進前輩致意，我曾經讀過三間學校，也在兩間以上的學校教課，也非常高興有這麼多人一起為教育努力，部長，您的責任很重。首先，我先提兩個今天大家熱議的議題，我過去多次關注雙語政策，一直提到AI時代，現在所有手機的AI服務都可以做到同步翻譯，未來還會更好，但我們的教育政策卻為了配合過去前行政院長……投影片好像有點問題，AI已經很進步了，但是我們在播放投影片偶爾還是會遇到一些困難，時間麻煩幫我暫停一下，這是技術上的問題，不是我們的問題。麻煩繼續，待會再補我幾秒，謝謝。","我想配合雙語政策變成教育現場有些亂象，很多的學科其實會變成反而學不好，現在有消息指出，教育部願意迷途知返、從善如流，重新調整雙語政策，想請教一下部長，因為在座大家都很關心接下來到底要怎麼辦，想向您確認是不是接下來除了英語課以外，其他課程都不用採取英語授課？回答是或不是就好，不用解釋。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，在中小學的英語課是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：就是只有英語課，不用再雙語了，中小學是這樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：不能這樣簡化地說，我們希望國中小從日常生活裡，他能夠開始從最簡單的自我介紹到學校、到社區導覽、食、衣、住、行等等的這些……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，接下來麻煩教育部要提出比較完整的配套。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：因為現在你們新聞的說法是交給第一線的學校決定，可是您現在又站在這裡說有完整的作法，不能一刀切，到底是該怎麼做，希望可以提出完整的說明。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒。現在我請國教署處理，等於將六年分成兩個階段，每一個階段有三年，然後有一些具體的作法，希望學生……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，相關配套措施什麼時候進行調整，部長可不可以給一個明確的期程？因為我們現在很多學校，不管是大專院校還是中小學，都還有雙語的預算啊？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：期程，什麼時候會提出明確的調整措施、配套措施？一個月、兩個月？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們兩個月可以提。"],["葛委員如鈞：兩個月內嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。另外，還有「班班有鮮奶」，本席7月就提醒這個政策非常混亂，剛剛是迷途知返，現在這個政策是甩手不管。對於配送有問題的學校，到底接下來要如何處理，可不可以請部長給一個明確的答復？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想跟委員報告，我還是要這麼說的，感謝農業部關心我們學童的營養。"],["葛委員如鈞：對！我們也非常感謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：也感謝地方在這部分的一些政策協助。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。請說到底接下來配送有問題的學校如何處理？部長跟農業部可不可以研議一週內給出完整的作法，我們待會還有很多議題要討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：這個部分，農業部在11月底會有整個政策上……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以是11月底以前會有一個完整的說法，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是、是！會開會、會協調。"],["葛委員如鈞：那再麻煩，我們會持續追蹤。部長，我想今天是教育部114年的預算詢答，想先跟您分享我們的高教領頭羊──臺灣大學，即將在2028年邁向百年校慶，我也非常恭喜。陳校長也特別提出呼籲，在近幾年的榮景之下，我們也應該要有更多的基礎建設、更多的前瞻，包含像日本的大學每年有100億日圓的補助，或者其他世界級的大學也都持續在往前更加地推動，但近來我們面臨人事費的增長，甚至電價還有可能調整，非常難做相關經費的一些因應，非常多的大專院校也都積極呼籲，包含本席。是不是可以再為高教請命，站在教育部的立場，剛剛洪孟楷委員也說了，可不可以再向行政院爭取高教前瞻基礎建設經費或用其他的方式，剛剛他是說兩倍，還提出了烏紗帽的請求，我是不是請您再強化一下您的意願跟積極態度？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員對高等教育人才培育的關心。事實上，我跟委員，還有我們所有大學校長的心情是一樣的，所以今年在高教跟去年比我們增加了20億，在這部分我們怎麼樣持續地對高等教育資源給予更寬裕的經費，讓他們對未來有一個更大的想像發展，我們會努力。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想還是遠遠不足啦！接下來可能還有很多費用要調整，所有的價格都在上漲，麻煩您再積極爭取。同時非常多的校長，包含臺大陳校長也在現場，包含本席也都提到，其實現在的人才培育應該要有一個跨部會小組，從人才培育來談，我們只是舉AI為例好了，教育部、國科會、經濟部、國發會、數發部之間，其實就有很多橫向的溝通可以做得更好，更何況整體的人才培育。所以我想請教部長，臺灣未來如果要跟其他人競爭，我們人才培育的中長期規劃，甚至未來幾十年、甚至百年的大計，這是最重要的。請教部長能不能向行政院爭取，成立一個跨部會的人才培育小組，讓大學可以有一個跟各部會直接溝通的平臺，最重要的是這個平臺應該要讓各大學可以參與，部長可不可以承諾？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。跟委員報告，目前行政院內部事實上是以國發會來啟動，本來我們在人才培育、在人力預估，就有一個跨部會的會議。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在全臺灣未來的人才是國發會在管，不是教育部在管嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們當然也參與，但是要有一個……"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來這個平臺到底要是誰？我們現在疑問是這個跨部會平臺大家都在踢，教育部踢國發會，國發會踢國科會，國科會又踢給辦公室，這到底是誰？教育部長，您能不能有……"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的提醒。委員說的當然也是一種方式，就是在人才培育，我們更積極地成立一個跨部會小組。"],["葛委員如鈞：那不然，我們這麼多大學校長在這裡聽您說話幹嘛呢？我們請國發會來就好啦！人才培育嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我們可以更細膩地針對人才來組成一個小組，我們來努力。"],["葛委員如鈞：教育部可不可以直接啦，我想教育部很重要，希望可以跟行政院爭取。同時我們談到人才培育，其實我們也看到一些亂象，我非常多次的質詢也都提起，現在的多元入學很可能被坊間稱作多錢入學，學習歷程檔案一個單一PDF只能上傳4 mega，影片只能傳幾秒鐘就算了，我們持續追蹤還是希望可以提高，但是現在的問題是什麼？有貧富不均的問題。我們一再地詢問、坊間一再地提醒，教育部一再地說沒有，但是怎麼樣？所有的課程都還在銷售，甚至還有雙11特價，然後蝦皮上面所有的東西還賣出什麼？有的賣出10萬份、有的賣出4.7萬份，還評價很高，五星好評喔！到底有多少學生都用這些所謂的銷售的方式、付費的方式來做多錢入學？沒有錢的學生是不是不公平？老師有沒有辦法去分辨出這些付費的服務？這種作法難道是教育部想要的嗎？","接下來，我們還有很多同學的這些資料很可能是用AI產生的，AI也可能要付錢，AI做出來的東西，老師目前也沒有工具可以評斷，接下來排山倒海而來的這些資料，有的是付錢的、有的是AI做的，到底我們應該要怎麼做？無獨有偶，近年來我們還推動了什麼？APCS的甄選。有越來越多的名額要採用甄選的方式，雖然報名考試的費用是教育部來支持的，但是補習班如雨後春筍出來。我想我們剛剛列了一系列的問題，其實都在講我們的教育方針跟政策不能變成多錢入學，有錢的人就可以入學，部長，面對多元入學變成多錢入學、教育商品化，我們一定要打擊這樣的現象，教育部有沒有探討背後的原因？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的指導，確實我想教育多元化，我們就希望肯定人就是有個別差異，所以才希望他在生涯的發展……"],["葛委員如鈞：金錢的個別差異嗎？能力的個別差異嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：每一個人……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以能力比較差的就要去補習嗎？要付錢？"],["鄭部長英耀：不是，所以我們多元的入學管道本來就是因應學生希望他能夠適性發展、更好的發展，所以剛才委員所提的當然不是教育部所樂意看到的，我們也知道民間的業者，有時候當然在招生的手法，或者從利潤上的考量。"],["葛委員如鈞：要不要打擊？教育部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們一定會在……"],["葛委員如鈞：要不要打擊？要不要處理？要不要研議？"],["鄭部長英耀：補習班或者有一些不實的……或者一些行銷手法，我想我們會……"],["葛委員如鈞：已經賣出20萬份，教育部要研議如何突破教學現場的侷限性，不要進一步再有教育商品化的現象好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：進一步的研議可以提供給本席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：有專家也提出，善用AI工具當然有壞的，就是他可能會偽造是自己做的，但也有好的，提升他的能力。那我想請教一下部長，您知道114學年度在中小學的階段，一共編列多少預算來推動數位平權？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，在數位平權的部分，數位學習的精進方案有27億。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，27億除以200……再來，其實就是這個答案沒錯啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：有將近2億，然後還有一個BYOD也有……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，我們算過了，每一個中小學生平均起來大概就是3塊錢，一個月其實就是幾十塊錢，跟我們營養午餐比起來相差18倍，這些錢可能要存一年才能買一個月的ChatGPT的費用，ChatGPT一個月要20塊美金。教育部如果真的有心要推動數位平權、AI平權，要讓不只是中小學的學生、大專院校的電腦教室、高等教育的同學都應該要有能力來使用這些服務，完全看不出來教育部推動數位平權的決心，這個部分教育部長可不可以承諾來檢討一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們確實一直在努力，因為與時俱進，ChatGPT、OpenAI確實在整個學習跟教學上影響是很深遠的……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們講的是數位平權的預算，好不好？麻煩再討論一下。接下來其實還有很大的問題是我們的數位素養，恭喜我們的運算思維全球第一，我們的資訊素養現在是排名第四，但是加起來75%的人都只有基本能力，是什麼呢？我用一張圖來表示，所有的這些學生、所有的這些年輕人，在沒有好的資訊素養教育的情況之下變得很會吃不會挑，這其實不是我們要看到的年輕人在數位世界裡的能力。在各國，包含美國、歐洲、日本都開始持續加強定義數位素養，而且應該要持續地來幫助他們，否則就會遇到一些很不好的現象。這是近期發生的一個悲劇，有一個14歲的年輕人，接下來非常多的人都在用AI，結果沉迷AI聊天最後輕生，到底我們臺灣的學生，不管是高等教育的、不管是中小學生，使用AI的比率、使用的方法、使用的是付費還免費，教育部有沒有進行調查？"],["鄭部長英耀：首先謝謝委員，我還是要先感謝我們全國的中小學老師，讓我們的學生能夠在國際的評比，在面對問題的邏輯思考、分析問題，能夠在世界排名第一。另外，他的科技素養事實上也名列前茅……"],["葛委員如鈞：辨別真假的素養。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想不管怎麼樣，它是一個國際評比，然後它對臺灣的教育，我們八年級的學生，我想這個部分還是真的要肯定我們老師的用心。"],["葛委員如鈞：肯定嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：但是剛才委員所提的AI，確實國外有許多的研究證據，包括在今年美國有一本書……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，部長，我打斷你，因為主席已經站起來了，我問的是臺灣的AI工具使用的比率跟現狀……"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是能夠請……"],["葛委員如鈞：主席對不起，因為我們部長沒有回答問題。"],["吳司長穎沺：跟委員報告，我們目前有的……應該是說我們教育部的學習平台上面，我們有的AI工具，10月份每一天上課平均大概是3.3萬名學生，其他的部分我們沒有做一個全面的調查。"],["葛委員如鈞：在這裡具體向教育部提出兩點要求：第一，請教育部參考國外對數位素養的研究，尤其是這些真假資訊的吸收跟辨別的能力，參考他們的定義，兩個月內來調整中小學數位教學指引跟數位素養有關的定義。第二，請教育部研議定期，定期喔！針對各個教育階段的學生進行AI工具使用情形的調查，研議結果希望一個月內以書面回復本席，以上兩點部長可不可以承諾？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，確實因為AI，所以我們在8月開學前就有一個數位指引給家長、給校長、給老師……"],["葛委員如鈞：我知道你們會講數位指引，使用的狀況，而且不是只是使用你們提供的工具，不要活在平行時空。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們一定會再來瞭解並跟委員報告……"],["葛委員如鈞：我相信所有的校長都非常關心，希望知道這個……"],["主席：部長，後續再書面或口頭回答。"],["葛委員如鈞：主席也會很想知道好不好？麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝葛委員提醒，我們一定會再更進一步瞭解後跟委員報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢，部長等請回。","下一位請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管114年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部主管117年度教育部"},{"start":88.427,"end":88.907,"text":"我覺得農業部怎麼會講這樣的話"},{"start":119.308,"end":147.631,"text":"實際上是補救路不夠嘛他當初發包的時候來投標廠商能夠供給的量就只有六成所以我們新北市現在還少大概六十萬瓶那你當務之急你應該要補足這個量啊怎麼會對外說我就不勉強學校喝了還有這樣子喔那當初你農業部教育部就不要宣傳班班有鮮奶嘛我已經講過了啊不要好像口號喊得很高實際上做不到你就喊說兩班喝一瓶鮮奶就好了嘛"},{"start":149.517,"end":166.058,"text":"因為部長你願意不是你去跟我又不溝通一下因為現在很多家長在等啊想說不是想說一個學期有44瓶一個禮拜兩瓶嗎然後現在因為沒量所以說我就不勉強你們喝了不是不勉強人家喝是不是人家喝不到啊部長你有瞭解這個狀況嗎"},{"start":168.966,"end":196.898,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個農業部在這個月底他會有一個你跟農業部講說請他趕快再找廠商來投標是你不是說因為不夠了講這種話都欺騙大家家長都生氣了我想應該農業部他就是農業部就這樣講的嘛農業部不會欺騙但是就是欺騙啦這一個廠商在整個供給我跟你講慢慢有先男一團亂農業部當初這樣隨便喊出來"},{"start":198.065,"end":213.801,"text":"教育部跟教育單位在那邊收爛攤子我還有聽說有老師叫家長帶一個麻布袋來說一次把44瓶領回家還有看到那包酒奶拿回家不是小朋友在喝是家長在喝都有"},{"start":214.722,"end":226.952,"text":"但是你當初喊這個口號你就要達成你不能說對不起我做不到我就不勉強你得了便宜還賣乖喔做不到還把事情把責任推給家長喔都是不好意思都是我勉強你們喝我現在不勉強你了這是什麼態度啊部長"},{"start":231.656,"end":240.061,"text":"政策是良善希望能夠對付的能不能跟農業部長溝通一下可不可以你去找他講叫他不要再隨便講這種話家長都生氣了第三個議題"},{"start":249.907,"end":273.394,"text":"那個有關於代理老師職前研資的計算因為大法官已經說違憲了嘛憲法法庭已經代理老師已經勝訴了但是這個事情已經隔了很久了已經非常久了那有很多代理老師在問我啊說說那現在進度怎麼樣實際上縣市政府還是並沒有把他的職前研資納入計算啊現在教育部的進度如何"},{"start":276.379,"end":298.057,"text":"確實這個有關代理老師的這一些年資的計算我們現在地方政府也正在激起的這個不是地方政府啦教育部你現在怎麼做嘛我想這裡邊有許多的這個老師的一個聘用是來自於地方的沒有沒有沒有你現在大法官是說請教育部在一年內修法嘛對吧你有看他的那個訴訟的主文嗎有嗎"},{"start":299.738,"end":325.001,"text":"修法是因為包含緣和是在地方。第二個就是說當然泰里老師是地方單位在沒錯啊問題是你是中央主管機關啊你要有個態度你要找大家來溝通啊你現在進度怎麼樣嗎是不是能夠詳細請這個彭署長是謝謝委員就如您最後一句話我們很快會召集地方政府在12月中在11月底12月中之間一定會召集11月底12月中會召集所以還沒召集喔"},{"start":325.521,"end":345.375,"text":"我們已經做過幕僚作業了現在是要正式會議你們不是民進黨最尊重大法官嗎怎麼大法官做決議都好像慢半拍這尊重法律所以大概已經在尊重那請問一下部長有沒有算過各縣市甚至全國如果把代理教師的職前年資納入計算的話要增加多少支出有計算過嗎"},{"start":348.65,"end":361.801,"text":"你知道為什麼會增加支出嗎?因為你如果把之前年資納入計算的話有時候他累積到一定的年限他要跳級嘛所以他薪酬會變高嘛那所以要增加支出嘛你有算過總共需要多少錢嗎?有算過嗎?"},{"start":363.507,"end":383.722,"text":"根據委員報告因為它會涉及到每一年老師禁用就是剛才那個委員所提的我都知道這些我都知道囉對沒錯所以這個要實際上我問你有沒有計算過因為是八月份的事情當年度禁用的大概四到六億間四到六億間四億到六億間對不對確定齁我跟你講齁新北市"},{"start":390.626,"end":407.624,"text":"如果要把帶給教師的值錢年資紀錄的話一年要兩億元啊一年要兩億啊我不知道你這四到六億是金錢因為我沒有去全國調查但西北市是兩億那這個其實對地方財政是一個很也是一個很大的負擔嘛那現在民進黨也不願意修財化法嘛"},{"start":408.854,"end":432.141,"text":"所以我是希望教育部第一個啦你可以考慮啦這筆預算應該是中央來編列啦去補助地方因為上一次代理教師本來是薪水是算10個月後來算到一年的時候中央只有補助第一年的一半所以後來每一年地方政府都要自己去自籌這個財源其實真的對於地方政府的財源也是造成負擔"},{"start":433.188,"end":442.69,"text":"那所以這個部分教育部是可以補助地方嗎?我剛剛講譬如說新北市2億剛剛署長講說全國是4到6億嘛那教育部有考慮要補助嗎?"},{"start":444.329,"end":470.98,"text":"跟我們報告確實這個教師的顏額是由地方來控管不是吧你那個時候你代理教師的你說從薪資從10個月到12個月當時教育部就有補助只是我們當然覺得不夠你只有補助第一年的一半而已現在就問你說之前年資紀錄這全國4到6億當然希望教育部可以編列預算來補助地方政府因為財務法你也不讓他過"},{"start":472.065,"end":492.808,"text":"委員剛剛所提的大禮老師全年年資那個第一年因為之前年資啊還沒剛剛您提到的那個第一次有補全月的全月全年的那個是因為第一年還沒編所以我們有補第二年以後都那一般性補助接著回到這個案子這個案子因為是有緣額如果非屬他們緣額是屬於計劃性的我們歷來都會有分工"},{"start":493.748,"end":499.573,"text":"原額本來就有正式原額的經費本來就可以支援給代理老師的所有費用至於計劃性教育部補助的部分我們會來處理"},{"start":510.748,"end":539.916,"text":"沒有沒有你就針對我的問題回答不要繞圈圈啦所以剛剛跟委員報告的是增加了4到6億這教育部有沒有要編預算就是補助地方政府還是說叫地方政府自籌裁員就這麼簡單的問題不要繞圈圈所以簡單的回答就是說屬於他的原額的部分他自己有經費非屬他原額屬於外加計劃性由中央補助的部分你會計劃性的你會給然後再一般的但問題是你4到6億裡面多少是計劃性原額多少是一般性原額這個是會不會跟"},{"start":540.316,"end":541.717,"text":"市長,因為教育部是最高的教育單位"},{"start":565.424,"end":585.161,"text":"那這部分我覺得你對老師好一點雖然是地方政府負責的但你對老師好一點我覺得對全國教育都有幫助啦好不好不要分那麼清楚啦你演繹一下你演繹一下然後再來跟那個我剛剛那個問題再請教一下所以什麼時候代理老師可以領導可以把他的職前年資納入基金最快什麼時候"},{"start":585.984,"end":611.613,"text":"按照憲法法庭的要求就是114學年114學年對,它是一年嘛對,114,最快114學年就可以納入最慢最慢,那最快勒?這個跟地方政府在一起在研究但是最慢一定在憲法法庭要求的一年內一定要處理完齁,那是憲法法庭嘛我如果你說你站在教育機關你的態度嘛不要跟我繞圈圈啦一個目標啦,最快多少?"},{"start":612.753,"end":625.517,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學�"},{"start":638.52,"end":663.396,"text":"最快這個可能還要跟地方政府一起會商尊重他們尊重地方政府你沒有目標就對了最慢一定在114年我當然知道啊不然你就違憲了嘛我先講是最快啦謝謝部長再請教一下齁那個我來問一個體育的問題喔我們有一個足球的六年的計畫嘛當初六年計畫編列多少43億嘛是不是"},{"start":665.484,"end":688.539,"text":"是。是嗎?是。43億。然後那個時候,這個足球練習計畫有定一個目標啦。就是希望說我們的世界排名可以到100名以內。對吧?市長知道這是嗎?市長知道這是嗎?是。可是問題是,到目前為止,這六年計畫過去之後,我們看到2024年的10月,我們FIFA的男子足球世界排名掉到168名。"},{"start":691.366,"end":704.019,"text":"並沒有達到當時的目標那你知道說這個原因是什麼?署長知道嗎?報告委員那這個並不是在我任內去執行但是我大概知道是誰在任內不管嘛你先去署長嘛"},{"start":706.209,"end":734.342,"text":"在執行的過程這個是男子的計畫不是女子足球的計畫這男子的計畫的部分他們在執行的過程其實沒有花到私籍大概20億左右對這是另外一個問題那個是另外一個問題我講的是說本來當初設定的目標是要到100名以內那本來應該是10年的計畫可是他把它縮了6年所以在整個執行狀況其實不是那麼的好你先不要跟我講執行狀況我現在講是排名落後是事實嘛對不對對所以你的意思是排名落後原因是因為他的預算執行不利是不是"},{"start":734.602,"end":759.561,"text":"不是,是因為整個計劃理論上當時撰寫的時候應該是10年的計劃所以是計劃寫錯?我們是當時把它壓縮了6年就要執行其實這個部分我們目前正在內部在檢查你就是說因為就是我講的嘛,排名沒有辦法往前的原因是因為計劃無法執行嘛但是這個計劃對我們的基層是有幫助的所以我們基層現在人口是非常的增加多的當然都有幫助只是你幫助了多少而已"},{"start":760.602,"end":775.375,"text":"當然都有幫助啦你錢花下去多少都有幫助但是你沒有達到你當初的期望嘛所以6年的期望其實我們從6年那既然你講到這個經費執行的狀況我們可以看一下它執行率確實是很低啦按照你講的因為執行率只有到47.22嘛是"},{"start":777.396,"end":789.152,"text":"有的執行率,像運發基金所編列出來的健全國家隊選訓賽的輔獎執行率只有36.49完善硬體設施執行率只有23.41為什麼完善硬體設施執行率這麼差?"},{"start":793.786,"end":810.613,"text":"包委員,這個計畫它是從各個不同的預算科目去把它聚集成一個計畫,並不是一個特別預算,所以它的整個的執行率是拆開來看,但整體來講是47%對,我知道,我現在就去問說為什麼完善,你聽我問好不好,組長,不用急著搶話啦,我們可以問問題嗎?"},{"start":818.279,"end":845.569,"text":"請問一下為什麼完善硬體設施執行率只有23.41是沒有人要提出計劃申請嗎?還是怎麼樣?是的那你當初訂這樣的一個計劃性的補助用意有達到嗎?沒有達到沒有達到嘛所以這也是財化法重要嘛就是中央收一堆錢訂了一個計劃性補助地方根本都沒來申請嘛你不如把錢給地方地方可以按照自己的優先順序來排自己要做的事情嘛那你現在怎麼去改善呢?"},{"start":850.581,"end":857.344,"text":"全國在整個土地分區以及土地的部分我們在請鑽納學來做同行的研討及主動來規劃目前我們還在研擬當中因為是去年才剛結案而已"},{"start":867.7,"end":880.191,"text":"對 去年結案 趙同學講你要延續啊我們現在還在進行 因為這個部分還需要進一步所以沒有任何的改善的計畫目前我們是將整個通盤的主力先檢討完因為我們剛剛有看到問題我沒有看到問題嘛 我沒有看到問題嘛 資訊不立嘛我沒有看到問題排名往後嘛請問怎麼改善"},{"start":887.577,"end":909.975,"text":"我先把硬體的土地先找到那個署長是不是後續在原汁委員說明好嗎不是啦你講的都很空洞啊你有講嗎你有講跟沒講一樣你怎麼改善嘛你先講嘛我先從設施土地部分先解決所以六年遇到什麼問題要解決就是我們的整個土地我們的場地是不足的後續再到您辦公室說明好嗎你確定他會來嗎"},{"start":911.851,"end":931.83,"text":"屬長你可以過去出庭吧那官員都這麼傲慢都傲慢成這個樣子問他問題一直插話然後不讓人家問然後繞圈圈都傲慢成這樣他已經答應會到你辦公室什麼時候不是你今天你這個問題你說你要改善但是講不出個所以然出來我剛剛已經回答你就說什麼土地問題解決這個問題就解決了嗎"},{"start":934.793,"end":934.933,"text":"主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1113,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（14時）麻煩請教育部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。剛剛有看到臺大校長呼籲希望我們要增加高教經費，本席也是非常支持，有看到部長說明年高教會增加59億，高教深耕增加20億。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：我是建議有關於大學社會責任實踐計畫能不能也增加預算，因為我覺得這樣的計畫對於減少學用落差其實是很有幫助的，實際上配合高齡社會的來臨，有些學校如果跟社區結合，辦一些活躍老化計畫，其實不僅可以讓學生學以致用，更可以讓我們社區得到學校的協助，因為畢竟大學的主要存在任務除了教學研究之外，還有社區服務嘛，部長願意朝這個方向嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想教學實踐也好，或者USR，我們都有增加經費。"],["葉委員元之：會增加嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：因為它的計畫這一期是到明年為止，是不是？"],["楊司長玉惠：USR是114年到117年。"],["葉委員元之：114年到117年？"],["楊司長玉惠：對。"],["葉委員元之：114年到117年編多少？我說USR喔，我不是說整個高教深耕，我是說USR，USR編多少？"],["楊司長玉惠：12億。"],["鄭部長英耀：12億，明年12億。"],["葉委員元之：明年12億，未來會逐年增加嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：是，我們儘量來爭取。"],["葉委員元之：有考慮逐年增加嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想那是有價值的，我們會努力來增加經費。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。部長，再跟你請教一下，之前有關心過班班喝鮮奶的議題，現在農業部最新的講法是說，如果學校沒有要喝就不勉強了，我覺得農業部怎麼會講這樣的話？實際上是保久乳不夠嘛，當初發包的時候，來投標的廠商能夠供給的量就只有六成，所以我們新北市現在還少大概60萬瓶，你當務之急應該要補足這個量啊，怎麼會對外說就不勉強學校喝了，還有這樣子的喔，那當初農業部、教育部就不要宣傳班班有鮮奶嘛，我已經講過了啊，不要好像口號喊得很高，實際上做不到，你就喊兩班喝一瓶鮮奶就好了嘛！部長，你去跟農業部溝通一下，因為現在很多家長在等啦，不是說1個學期有44瓶，1個禮拜2瓶嗎，現在因為沒量，所以就說不勉強你們喝了，不是不勉強人家喝，是人家喝不到啊，部長你有了解這個狀況嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實農業部在這個月底會有一個……"],["葉委員元之：你跟農業部說，請他趕快再找廠商來投標！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：不是說因為不夠了，講這種話是欺騙大家，家長都生氣了！"],["鄭部長英耀：我想應該農業部……"],["葉委員元之：農業部就是這樣講的嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：農業部不會欺騙，但是可能……"],["葉委員元之：就是欺騙啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：可能這一個廠商在整個供給量……"],["葉委員元之：我跟你講，班班有鮮奶真的一團亂，農業部當初這樣隨便喊出來，就是教育部跟教育單位在那邊收爛攤子嘛！現在我還聽說有老師叫家長帶個麻布袋來，一次把44瓶領回家啦，還有看到保久乳拿回家不是小朋友在喝，是家長在喝，都有啦，但是你當初喊這個口號就要達成，你不能說：對不起，我做不到，我就不勉強你。得了便宜還賣乖喔！做不到還把責任推給家長，不好意思喔，都是我勉強你們喝，我現在不勉強你了。這什麼態度啊？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：部長，這個東西……"],["鄭部長英耀：政策是良善，希望能夠讓我們的……"],["葉委員元之：政策良善但你要做到啦，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：但是政策實際……"],["葉委員元之：你能不能跟農業部長溝通一下，可不可以？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我會後再來……"],["葉委員元之：你去找他講，叫他不要再隨便講這種話，家長都生氣了，好不好？","第三個議題是有關於代理老師職前年資的計算，因為大法官已經說違憲了嘛，憲法法庭已經判代理老師勝訴了，但是這個事情已經隔了很久，已經非常久了，有很多代理老師問我現在的進度怎麼樣，實際上縣市政府還是沒有把他的職前年資納入計算啊，現在教育部的進度如何？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實，有關代理老師的年資計算，現在地方政府也正在積極的討論……"],["葉委員元之：不是地方政府啦，教育部現在要怎麼做啦？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這裡面有許多老師的聘用是來自於地方……"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，現在大法官是說請教育部在一年內修法嘛，對吧？你有看那個訴訟的主文嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：修法是一定，因為……"],["葉委員元之：現在進度如何？第二個就是說，當然代理老師是地方單位沒錯，問題是你是中央主管機關啊，你要有一個態度，你要找大家來溝通啊，現在進度怎麼樣嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：詳細情形是不是能夠請彭署長說明？"],["葉委員元之：是。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員，就如您最後一句話，我們很快會召集地方政府……"],["葉委員元之：很快是什麼……"],["彭署長富源：在11月底到12月中之間一定會召集。"],["葉委員元之：11月底到12月中會召集，所以還沒召集喔？"],["彭署長富源：我們已經做過幕僚作業了，現在是要正式會議。"],["葉委員元之：你們民進黨不是最尊重大法官嗎？怎麼對大法官作的決議都好像慢半拍！"],["彭署長富源：沒有，這尊重法律，所以大概已經在進行當中。"],["葉委員元之：好，請問一下部長，有沒有算過各縣市，甚至全國，如果把代理教師的職前年資納入計算的話，要增加多少支出，有計算過嗎？"],["彭署長富源：因為是地方政府……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：你知道為什麼會增加支出嗎？因為你如果把職前年資納入計算的話，有時候年資累積到一定的年限就會跳級嘛，他的薪水會變高，所以要增加支出嘛，你有算過總共需要多少錢嗎？有算過嗎？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，因為這涉及到每一年老師的進用，就是剛才委員你所提到的他實際的年資……"],["葉委員元之：我都知道，這些我都知道……"],["彭署長富源：沒錯，所以這個要實際……"],["葉委員元之：我問你有沒有計算過，因為是8月份的事情……"],["彭署長富源：對，當年度進用的大概4億到6億間……"],["葉委員元之：多少？"],["彭署長富源：4億到6億間，因為當年度實際……"],["葉委員元之：4億到6億間，對不對？"],["彭署長富源：對。"],["葉委員元之：確定？"],["彭署長富源：是。"],["葉委員元之：我跟你講，新北市如果要把代理教師的職前年資計入的話，一年要2億元啦，我不知道你這4億到6億的金額怎麼算的，因為我沒有去做全國調查，但新北市是2億，這個其實對地方財政是一個很大的負擔，現在民進黨也不願意修財劃法，所以我是希望教育部可以考慮這筆預算應該由中央來編列去補助地方，因為上一次代理教師本來的薪水是算10個月，後來算到1年的時候，中央只有補助第一年的一半，導致後來每一年地方政府都要自己去自籌這個財源，其實真的對於地方政府的財源也是造成負擔，所以這個部分，教育部可以補助地方嗎？我剛剛講的，譬如新北市2億，剛剛署長講說全國是4億到6億嘛，教育部有考慮要補助嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實教師的員額是由地方來控管，我們在地方……"],["葉委員元之：不是嘛，那個時候代理教師的薪資從10個月到12個月，當時教育部就有補助嘛，只是我們覺得不夠，你只有補助第一年的一半而已嘛，現在就是問你，職前年資計入後，全國這4億到6億，我們當然希望教育部可以編列預算來補助地方政府，因為財劃法你也不讓它過啊。"],["彭署長富源：委員剛剛所提代理老師全年年資的那個部分，第一年因為地方……"],["葉委員元之：職前年資啦！"],["彭署長富源：還沒，剛剛您提到的那個……"],["葉委員元之：全年年資？"],["彭署長富源：第一次有補全月全年的那個，是因為第一年還沒編，所以我們有補，第二年以後就納入一般性補助。接著回到這個案子，這個案子因為是有員額，如果非屬他們的員額，是屬於計畫性的，我們歷來都會有分工……"],["葉委員元之：分工？什麼叫分工？"],["彭署長富源：會有分工，員額……"],["葉委員元之：署長，講話精準一點，不要講完都聽不懂！"],["彭署長富源：是，所謂分工就是，員額本來就有正式員額的經費，一個正式員額經費本來就可以支用給那個代理老師的所有費用，至於屬於計畫性、教育部補助的部分，我們會來處理。"],["葉委員元之：不是、不是，你就針對我的問題回答，不要繞圈圈啦！"],["彭署長富源：所以剛剛跟委員報告的……"],["葉委員元之：我講的是增加的4億到6億，教育部有沒有要編預算來補助地方政府？還是叫地方政府自籌財源？就這麼簡單的問題，不要繞圈圈。"],["彭署長富源：所以簡單的回答就是說，屬於他的員額部分，他自己有經費；非屬他的員額，屬於外加計畫性由中央補助的部分，我們會來協助。"],["葉委員元之：計畫性的你會給，但是一般的……問題你4億到6億裡面有多少是計畫性員額、多少是一般性員額？"],["彭署長富源：這個會後再跟委員做確切的說明。"],["葉委員元之：不是，我是覺得你在第一年起碼要補助人家啦，你研議一下啦，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，因為當時那個12個月的部分，是當年度決定的，因此有半年的經費他們沒有，所以來協助，這一個事情在憲法法庭確定之後馬上就應該要給了……"],["葉委員元之：好啦……"],["彭署長富源：所以我們在編114年度的時候，地方政府已經有準備了。"],["葉委員元之：署長，因為教育部是最高的教育單位啦，這個部分雖然是地方政府負責的，但是你對老師好一點，我覺得對全國的教育都有幫助啦，不要分那麼清楚啦，你研議一下！"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：你研議一下。我剛剛那個問題再請教一下，所以什麼時候代理老師可以把他的職前年資納入計算？最快什麼時候？"],["彭署長富源：按照憲法法庭的要求就是114學年。"],["葉委員元之：114學年？"],["彭署長富源：對，就一年嘛。"],["葉委員元之：最快114學年就可以納入？"],["彭署長富源：最慢。"],["葉委員元之：最慢，那最快呢？"],["彭署長富源：這個要跟地方政府再一起研究，但是最慢一定在憲法法庭要求的一年內一定要處理完。"],["葉委員元之：那是憲法法庭嘛，我是問你教育機關的態度嘛，不要給我繞圈圈啦，你的目標最快多久？人家現在都在等了嘛！"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，剛剛會涉及到有一些還要會商的因素……"],["葉委員元之：我知道會商，但是我今天如果沒有問的話，我們都不知道你有找地方來會商啊！"],["彭署長富源：所以12月中以前會商完……"],["葉委員元之：8月份的時候大法官的判決出來了，你到11月底才要去找人家，那你就慢慢拖就好了嘛！"],["彭署長富源：已經諮詢過了，現在就是正式的會議。"],["葉委員元之：所以什麼時候？"],["彭署長富源：12月中以前會有一些方案……"],["葉委員元之：我說最快，好累喔！最快什麼時候？"],["彭署長富源：最快可能還要跟地方政府一起會商，尊重他們。"],["葉委員元之：尊重地方政府，你沒有目標就對了？"],["彭署長富源：最慢一定在114年……"],["葉委員元之：我當然知道啊，不然，你就違憲了嘛，我現在講的是最快，謝謝。","部長，再請教一下，我要問一個體育的問題，我們有一個足球六年計畫，當初六年計畫編列多少？43億是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：那個時候這個足球六年計畫有訂一個目標，就是希望我們的世界排名可以到100名以內，部長知道這事嗎？署長知道這事嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：可是問題是到目前為止，這六年計畫過去之後，我們看到2024年10月我們的FIFA男子足球世界排名掉到168名，並沒有達到當時的目標，我不知道這個原因是什麼，署長知道嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個並不是在我任內去執行，但是我大概知道……"],["葉委員元之：是誰的任內不管嘛，你現在是署長嘛。"],["鄭署長世忠：在執行的過程中，這是男子足球的計畫，不是女子足球的計畫，這男子足球計畫的部分，他們在執行的過程中其實沒有花到四十幾億，大概在二十億左右。"],["葉委員元之：對，這是另外一個問題，我講的是，本來當初設定的目標是要到100名以內……"],["鄭署長世忠：這本來應該是十年的計畫，可是把它縮短為六年，所以整個執行狀況其實不是那麼的好。"],["葉委員元之：你先不要跟我講執行狀況，我現在講排名落後是事實，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["葉委員元之：你的意思是排名落後的原因是因為預算執行不力，是不是？"],["鄭署長世忠：不是，是因為整個計畫當時撰寫的時候理論上應該是十年計畫。"],["葉委員元之：所以是計畫寫錯？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們當時把它壓縮為六年就要執行，其實這個部分，我們內部目前正在檢討，要不要重新再弄一個……"],["葉委員元之：就是我講的排名沒有辦法往前的原因是因為計畫無法執行。"],["鄭署長世忠：但是這個計畫對基層是有幫助的，所以我們基層……"],["葉委員元之：當然都有幫助，只是你幫助多少而已，當然都有幫助啦，你錢花下去，多少都有幫助，但是你有沒有達到你當初的期望嘛。"],["鄭署長世忠：所以六年的計畫，其實我們從之前開始……"],["葉委員元之：那好，既然你講到經費執行的狀況，我們可以看一下它執行率確實是很低，按照你講的，執行率只有到47.22%。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["葉委員元之：然後有的執行率像運發基金所編列的健全國家隊選訓賽的輔獎什麼的，執行率只有36.49%，完善硬體設施執行率只有23.41%，為什麼完善硬體設施執行率這麼差？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個計畫是從各個不同的預算科目去把它聚集成一個計畫，並不是一個特別預算，所以它的整個執行率是拆開來看，但整體來講是47%。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我現在問……"],["鄭署長世忠：但場館的部分還牽涉到土地……"],["葉委員元之：我現在就問為什麼完善硬體設施執行率只有23.41%，是沒有人要提出計畫申請嗎？還是怎樣？"],["鄭署長世忠：是的。"],["葉委員元之：那你當初訂這樣一個計畫性的補助用意有達到嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有達到。"],["葉委員元之：沒有達到嘛，所以這也是財劃法重要的原因之一，就是中央收一堆錢，訂了一個計畫性補助，地方根本都沒來申請嘛……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，是土地的問題。"],["葉委員元之：你不如把錢給地方，地方可以按照自己的優先順序來安排自己要做的事情。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，主要是土地的問題。"],["葉委員元之：那你現在怎麼去改善呢？你剛剛推給前朝，那現在換你了，你怎麼改善？"],["鄭署長世忠：全國在整個土地分區以及土地的部分，我們再請專家學者來做通盤檢討，並主動規劃……"],["葉委員元之：所以接下來的足球計畫是怎麼訂定？幾年？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前我們還在研擬當中。"],["葉委員元之：還在研擬？"],["鄭署長世忠：當然，因為去年才剛結案而已。"],["葉委員元之：去年結案，正常來講你要延續啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：我們現在還在結案，因為這個部分還需要進一步討論。"],["葉委員元之：所以沒有任何的改善計畫？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前我們是將整個土地通盤檢討完……"],["葉委員元之：因為我們剛剛有看到問題。"],["鄭署長世忠：因為我們土地要整個通盤檢討完，才有辦法另起一個計畫。"],["葉委員元之：我們有看到問題，執行不力嘛！我們也有看到問題，排名往後嘛！請問怎麼改善？"],["鄭署長世忠：我先把硬體的土地先找到，才有辦法去……"],["主席：署長，是不是會後跟葉元之委員說明？"],["葉委員元之：署長，你講的都很空洞啊！不是啦，你講的都很空洞，你有講嗎？你有講跟沒講一樣，你怎麼改善嘛？你現在講。"],["鄭署長世忠：我先從設施、土地部分解決。"],["葉委員元之：所以六年計畫遇到什麼問題要解決？"],["鄭署長世忠：就是我們的場地是不足的。"],["主席：葉元之委員，後續再到您辦公室說明好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：你確定他會來嗎？"],["主席：署長，你可以過去說明吧？"],["葉委員元之：官員那麼傲慢！傲慢成這樣子！問他問題一直插話，不讓人家問，然後繞圈圈，傲慢成這樣！"],["主席：他已經答應會到你辦公室。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候？對於今天這些問題，你說要改善，但是講不出個所以然來！"],["鄭署長世忠：我剛剛已經回答是因為……"],["葉委員元之：你就說什麼土地，土地問題解決，這個問題就解決了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：這是第一個先解決的。"],["主席：時間已經超過太多了，署長後續到葉元之委員辦公室說明好嗎？他已經答應了！"],["葉委員元之：他答應，他會做到嗎？"],["主席：不做到的話，我們下次再處理他好嗎？"],["葉委員元之：你怎麼處理他？"],["主席：下次您處理他好了。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：署長、部長請回。謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","下一位蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員。","請陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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15.352,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文"},{"start":27.816,"end":45.656,"text":"委員好部長好您辛苦了今天我們現場來了非常多的大學在原教法第25條它有一個規定就是為了要建立原住民學生他的生活的文化支持系統"},{"start":47.118,"end":64.879,"text":"護導原住民學生的生活學業,促進校園的友善,所以鼓勵設置原住民族學生資源中心,我們都說那個叫做原資中心。那麼開設以來呢,其實從一開始只有園民會提供的開辦費30萬,"},{"start":66.721,"end":88.261,"text":"後來教育部很用心在我們多方的質詢跟要求關心之下在109年有增加了專任人力一名那個時候是45萬到了112年更好了每增加200名人民學生再增加一個專任人力這時候是一名50萬"},{"start":90.158,"end":117.203,"text":"現在又又更好了因為明年每增加100名的原民學生會再可以增加一名專任人力而且提高到65萬那為什麼我要這樣子問其實這幾年我們常常可以接到很多關於大學原資中心的陳情有一點點違背他原來的設立目的因為是為了要促進"},{"start":118.343,"end":122.647,"text":"委員會主管124年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管124年度教育部主管"},{"start":133.396,"end":156.166,"text":"一百九十五名的專任人力有百分之六十五他的薪資拿到的是在三萬六以下我們來細看因為我想要所資但是教育部告訴我沒有做這方面的資料所以助理自己一間一間去問以中區的九間學校調查我們可以看到"},{"start":157.102,"end":177.765,"text":"有一個領31K的他還要負責原專班的所有事務有一個領29K的他還要做僑生的相關業務以及課外組的交辦事項有一個是碩士他領35K他還要去做園民會的計畫的一些申請"},{"start":178.846,"end":194.288,"text":"好,這樣子來看,我們可以看我們的專任人力他們有一些困境。第一個,他們覺得薪資沒有達到補助的經費。為什麼?因為教育部沒有要求薪資下限。"},{"start":195.129,"end":220.521,"text":"另外他們的業務很繁雜即便申請人力達標我們有問學校為什麼不願意徵聘因為他說我們不確定到底教育部會不會核定給我所以他們也不敢來徵聘來編列而且我們看到他們的人力流動率是很高的根本沒有辦法達到陪伴這樣的一個目的他們也覺得說做的事情很雜總而言之我覺得"},{"start":223.422,"end":246.749,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":247.609,"end":256.013,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們原住民學生的一些發展跟受教的前提我們希望一次次的檢討可以邁向更好我們教育部都會積極地按照規定來補助"},{"start":263.476,"end":280.252,"text":"好 謝謝部長勇於認識 見急履急那麼我第二個部分我也要談的就是失陪的部分我們都在抱怨教育部這個我們的這個看不見的民族教育開缺還有好辛苦的原住民公費生為什麼"},{"start":281.673,"end":301.888,"text":"因為教育部112到114我們有一個叫做原住民族教育去做完備師資培育跟聘用但是部長我跟您說從108推動以來已經出現了第一批的畢業生而且有兩位他是通過了高級認證但是有什麼用沒有缺"},{"start":302.688,"end":327.01,"text":"然後呢這些原住民公費生很難他除了跟一般的學校一樣他要通過教檢他的學科能力要精熟他也要有英語能力的測驗通過他必須要通過足語中高級而且他要加修12學分的民族教育次專長所以部長你有沒有聽過原住民公費生他其實折損率很高啊"},{"start":327.731,"end":330.753,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功"},{"start":349.087,"end":365.009,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":365.129,"end":386.271,"text":"如果我們的原住民及師資換算出來應該要有1800位但是我們目前只有900多位還缺800多位那目前呢我們的師培公費生如果全部順利畢業有330位還是大大的短缺更何況是這些國高中他要分科來聘更加的困難"},{"start":386.992,"end":411.371,"text":"所以這些主語專任教師也根本找不到缺還要涉及到縣市開缺所以我想這個部分因為時間的關係我們不能夠讓這些原住民的師資生他有什麼未來可以相信他好難畢業他畢了業找不到缺所以我覺得這個部分我們要好好的來檢討所以部長我是希望說也可以一併的來辦公室我們來討論好不好"},{"start":412.832,"end":428.671,"text":"謝謝委員關心 確實當然原住民工會的老師他還是會有一些調動因為這樣區域上會有一些落差但是確實我們也看到了原住民的整個失色培育包含我們在"},{"start":429.232,"end":454.911,"text":"原住民語言是不是只有在校生的一個培育方式還是用線上用許多的方式其他的方式包含那個標準我們是我也已經我們這個責成我們這一個業務單位也排好這一個跟延民會主委能夠有一個面對面的一個請希望對原住民的一個教育在這邊能夠有一個更精進的一些作為"},{"start":455.311,"end":465.117,"text":"部長您已經有看到所以我希望能夠好好的坐下來談把這些問題改善那最後給我30秒我30秒我請台大校長10秒鐘台大校長請陳文張校長10秒10秒我就講一句話你就一句話然後一句話回答好嗎校長您好您認得照片上這些人嗎"},{"start":484.354,"end":488.569,"text":"不認得,但是看過照片,謝謝。好,我跟您說這張照片"},{"start":489.781,"end":517.006,"text":"恰恰是去年的今天滿一週年那我今天終於在質詢台上看到您了但是他們也很想看到您那我想這個部分山水有相逢那他們都很期待跟您後會有期是不是可以一週內到我的辦公室可以啦那事後跟委員口頭或書面說明好嗎我是希望到本席辦公室我們可以準備書面說明跟委員報告 謝謝"},{"start":517.687,"end":518.067,"text":"請到本席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1085,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時51分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長，辛苦了。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好，您辛苦了。今天我們現場來了非常多的大學，原教法第二十五條有一個規定，為建立原住民學生在校就學及生活之文化支持系統，輔導原住民學生生活及學業，並促進族群友善校園的環境，所以鼓勵設置原住民族學生資源中心，我們都叫那個是原資中心，自開設以來，從一開始就只有原民會提供的開辦費30萬，後來教育部很用心，在我們多方質詢、要求、關心之下，在109年增加了專任人力1名，那個時候是給45萬；到了112年更好了，每增加200名原民學生，再增加一個專任人力，這時候是一名50萬；現在又更好了，因為明年每增加100名的原民學生，可以再增加1名專任人力，而且提高到65萬。","為什麼我要這樣子問，其實這幾年我們常常可以接到很多關於大學原資中心的陳情，包括這有一點點違背它原來的設立目的，因為這是為了要促進友善校園，為了要給孩子生活、學業及文化的支持系統，但是很多的問題產生了，為什麼我要特別這樣問，我們先看一下，以今年來講，195名的專任人力，有65%他拿到的薪資是在3萬6,000以下，我們來細看，因為我想要索資，但是教育部告訴我沒有做這方面的資料，所以助理自己就一間一間去問，以中區9間學校調查結果來看，我們可以看到，有一個領31K的，他還要負責原專班的所有事務；有一個領29K的，他還要做僑生的相關業務以及課外組的交辦事項；有一個是碩士，領35K，他還要去做一些原民會計畫的申請。如此一來，我們可以看到我們的專任人力，他們是有一些困境的，第一個，他們覺得薪資沒有達到補助經費應該有的程度，為什麼？因為教育部沒有要求薪資下限；另外，他們業務很繁雜，即便申請人力達標，我們有問學校為什麼不願意增聘，它說：我們不確定到底教育部會不會核定給我們，所以他們也不敢來增聘、來編列；而且我們看到他們的人力流動率是很高的，根本沒有辦法達到陪伴這樣一個目的，他們也覺得做的事情很雜。","總而言之，我覺得既然連資料都要不到，而且我知道我們的原資中心全國有分四區，區的原資中心到底扮演什麼角色來協助教育部呢？這個部分可能我們還要再來精進，所以我希望1週內可以來辦公室，跟我一起來研商改善的方案，部長，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以，謝謝委員關心我們原住民學生的一些發展跟受教的權益。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我們希望一次次的檢討可以邁向更好。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想包含待遇這一個部分，我們教育部都會積極的按照規定來補助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長勇於任事，劍及履及。","第二個部分我也要談的是師培的部分，我們都在抱怨教育部看不見的民族教育開缺，還有好辛苦的原住民公費生，為什麼？因為教育部112年到114年有一個原住民族教育相關計畫，去做完備師資培育跟聘用等工作，但是部長，我跟您說，從108年推動以來，已經出現了第一批的畢業生，而且有兩位通過了高級認證，但是有什麼用，沒有缺！然後這些原住民公費生很難繼續走下去，他除了跟在一般學校任教一樣，要通過教檢，他的學科能力要精熟，他也要通過英語能力的測驗，也必須要通過族語中高級測驗，而且他要加修12學分的民族教育次專長。","部長有沒有聽過原住民公費生的折損率很高、很難畢業，我就不曉得了，為什麼？因為如果只有一個人出現這個問題，可能是個人問題，可是如果是一群人出現這個問題，我們就要去思考，可能是我們的制度出了問題，原教法第三十四條當年108年大修，是因為裡面規定的原住民師資員額，沒有辦法能夠通過法定的比率，所以108年的時候我提案大修，然後裡面有提到10年後要達成的目標，我先跟部長講，目前看起來也是達不到，為什麼？如果我們的原住民及師資比例換算出來，應該要有1,800位，但是我們目前只有九百多位，還缺八百多位；目前我們的師培公費生，如果全部順利畢業，有330位，還是大大的短缺，更何況是這些國、高中，它要分科來聘，可說是更加的困難，所以這些族語專任教師也根本找不到缺，而且這還涉及到縣市開缺，所以就這個部分，時間的關係，我想我們不能夠讓這些原住民的師資生，他有什麼未來可以相信？他好難畢業，且他畢了業也找不到缺，所以我覺得這個部分我們要好好的來檢討，我是希望這也可以一併的來我們辦公室討論，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，確實，原住民公費生擔任老師，還是會有一些調動，因為這樣在區域上會有一些落差，但是我們確實也看到了原住民整個師資的培育上，包含我們在原住民語言上，是不是只有在校生這樣一個培育方式，還是也可以用線上或許多其他的方式，包含那個標準，我也已經責成我們的業務單位，安排好跟原民會主委面對面來做一個請益，希望對原住民的教育，在這邊能夠有一些更精進的作法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長您已經有看到了，所以我希望能夠好好的坐下來談，把這些問題改善。最後給我30秒，我請臺大校長。"],["主席：10秒鐘，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，10秒鐘，請臺大校長陳文章校長。"],["主席：因為已經超時，你就一句話，然後他一句話回答，好嗎？因為已經超時了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。校長您好，您認得照片上這些人嗎？"],["陳校長文章：不認得，但是看過照片，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我跟您說，這張照片恰恰是在去年的今天，所以滿一週年，我今天終於在質詢臺上看到您了，但是他們也很想看到您，我想這個部分山水有相逢，他們都很期待跟您後會有期，是不是可以一週內到我的辦公室？可以嗎？"],["主席：事後請跟伍委員口頭或書面說明，好嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是希望到本席辦公室。"],["主席：到委員辦公室，OK。"],["陳校長文章：我們可以準備書面說明跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請到本席的辦公室。"],["主席：好，時間到了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，謝謝校長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：部長請回，校長請回，謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。再來我們請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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謝謝昭偉 有請部長好 有請鄭部長順便有請幾位學校的校長齁台大校長、成大校長中興大校長好 請校長移動一下齊藝科大校長台中科大校長好 校長們請 辛苦了"},{"start":21.837,"end":51.317,"text":"好請校長先站一下喔不好意思喔委員好好部長好10月16日喔我有一個問題呢一個月前喔我有問這個部長啊詢問重啟學生啊我們的陸森來台的事情一個月過後我想先詢問一下這一個陸森來台的政見啊我想這個是賴清德總統當時有說的對吧是那您個人支持陸森來台嗎是當時我上任的時候事實上也對媒體有表達你支持欸好我們請台大學校長"},{"start":52.796,"end":64.847,"text":"校長您支持嗎委員好我支持謝謝好陳大校長我支持國家的政策好新大的校長謝謝委員好我們也支持好我們臺中科大委員好我們支持好我們請你謝謝"},{"start":73.697,"end":102.764,"text":"支持好 謝謝 謝謝大家的表態因為這個關係我想跟再請問一下部長請問一下你的相關的回覆本席還沒有收到目前一個月過去了請問還要多久會給本席非常抱歉這一個看起來這一個是我們的一個疏漏我們分個月前你有答應我還記得嗎是還記得嗎還是你忘了真的太多事情我想我們業務單位這裡邊主管單位我們來你不要到時候真的當"},{"start":103.704,"end":108.447,"text":"體育部部長我還要去那邊找你昨天自己毛遂自見委員昨天的執行我們看到這個臺灣隊這個贏了韓國真的非常興奮我們一起來努力重啟陸生是賴清德總統的一個政見在座各校校長"},{"start":120.054,"end":141.483,"text":"也都歡迎陸生所以我們是在幫賴清德總統爭取他的政見能夠落實那我想現行主要是透過陸聯會的機制開放陸生來台但因為兩岸關係的一個惡化陸方也對賴清德總統的一些言論不滿那都是兩岸政治的一個問題我們不談我們對於教育政策我們在乎的是教育以及學校的一個經營"},{"start":143.004,"end":166.832,"text":"非要透過陸聯會這唯一的管道嗎?教育部有沒有更積極的作為?這個部分有沒有其他限制性的一個法規一個方向來做思考?跟委員報告我們過去確實他的一個兩岸的一個學位生他確實是透過陸聯會但是我們也主動在這個南台科大是我們的一個PO辦公室嘛那在整個主動聯絡裡邊確實對方都沒有回覆"},{"start":170.814,"end":190.364,"text":"所以我說一定要有其他的作為嗎?對不對?難道你要在這邊直接宣布賴總統的政見破功無法達成嗎?但是目前兩岸的這些各大學短期的一些交流,它事實上還是有的好,但是我們希望各個學校現在急迫為什麼需要入生,您應該最清楚吧?"},{"start":191.479,"end":208.979,"text":"因為少子化的關係而又招生不易的關係提供兩岸有更多的彼此的更希望教育的交流一個理解理解這個差異然後能夠彼此有一個更好的一個互動我想這是也是我們在人才培育上我想本席要提到的為什麼我們積極的在探討這個政見"},{"start":209.96,"end":232.527,"text":"一方面希望能夠落實一方面其實我們收到很多大學端學校有可能跟我們陳情關於所謂的陸聯會目前斷絕消息我們該有什麼樣的方式能夠讓陸生再來台我想很多學校都很期待我希望部長這個部分能夠積極的想辦法可以嗎我們來努力好謝謝我先請台大跟成大的校長先回座好不好"},{"start":233.882,"end":258.773,"text":"好謝謝喔那部長我另外再跟你請教一下喔部長本席一直在關心一間政府機構的公告辦理約聘人員的職缺案子想跟你請教一下喔該公告之徵才所需的條件資格阿內容寫著包含國內外醫藥民生生命科學等領域相關科系學士以上學歷等本席一直很好奇喔有聽過醫藥衛生或者是醫藥"},{"start":260.474,"end":283.868,"text":"衛生但就是沒有聽過醫藥、民生本席也於11月12日8時發文給教育部詢問但今天遇到部長我想說用問的比較快因為您本身也是承認中山大學的一個校長您有聽過中山大學自己本身也有醫學院、理學院、社科院海洋科學院等學院非常完整但是部長請問一下醫藥、民生"},{"start":286.169,"end":291.65,"text":"究竟表示具備何等領域的何等科系畢業之學士才符合公告的一個標準?"},{"start":292.957,"end":319.858,"text":"醫藥名聲醫藥基本上就是大概很清楚就是醫學相關跟藥醫藥很清楚名聲呢名聲呢名聲大概是比較是來自一個生活上的許多的包含生活科學等等的這些生活科學我覺得他的範疇有點廣法律序算不算名聲這要看怎麼定民法算不算名聲"},{"start":321.38,"end":348.316,"text":"民法是經濟系算不算民生廣義的來講當然也可以買賣東西算不算民生所以我越講越覺得很奇怪喔如果部長醫藥民生民生就是民生學院畢業科系就算的話那同樣邏輯賴清德總統是醫學院的物理治療學系那麼他直接可以去考醫生了啊為什麼要去念學士後醫學系難道他是傻子嗎"},{"start":349.656,"end":369.298,"text":"我想對於現在的徵才我們一直在講衛福部也被我一直在糾正寫清楚說明白你們到底需要什麼樣的人才不要任何的模糊空間我們不希望透過這些模糊空間開放了一些模糊空間的人來能夠錄取這個部分我想我表達的夠清楚吧是"},{"start":371.906,"end":394.154,"text":"我本席沒有要特意要針對誰只是想請問科系要納入什麼樣的學院到底有沒有什麼標準不然社工系看起來也像社會科學系啊科學院呢對不對怎麼會納民生學院所以部長這很重要因為政府機關公告辦理的約聘用人員的一個職缺就以學院區分而不是科系屬性教育部若沒有律定清楚人事會亂"},{"start":396.078,"end":417.007,"text":"我想在許多的徵才裡面當然他有一些主修或者專長上的概念但是大概有時候會有比較模糊的這個比較寬廣的一個定義上在人才的一個recruit的過程裡面我想他其實大概希望說如果有真的有跨領域的"},{"start":418.448,"end":421.43,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學教育部主管47所國立大學教育部主管"},{"start":448.328,"end":461.964,"text":"部長,部長沒有,我是要跟你講話部長,您知道我是什麼學校畢業的嗎?不好意思我中興大學畢業的校友我也是勤益科大畢業的台中科大沒考上"},{"start":462.915,"end":468.076,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管474年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機二、審查114年度教育部所屬機"},{"start":482.403,"end":505.549,"text":"中興大學想要爭取學士後護理系這沒有累過的啦都是我自己去調查了解的啦那我想這個AI生成室的一個實驗所以及校園實農教育的實踐基地以及我一直在跟你講老舊校舍的改善我想這個部分部長希望上述的計畫可以多多幫忙那後續起義科大、台中科大"},{"start":506.397,"end":534.792,"text":"我也會持續來努力跟你追蹤但是要跟您報告一下因為我是本委啦齁那又是這三所有淵源是那我希望說部長能夠多幫我們照顧一下尤其現在我要跟你談討的就是學師後護理系剛剛陳昭之委員也有提到我們在早上也有開記者會為護理人員發聲護理人力已經吃緊了許多的醫院都關窗中興大學有心要辦這個學師後護理系應該給予大力的一個支持可以認同嗎"},{"start":536.189,"end":564.987,"text":"我想確實我們現在在現場裡面第一線這個護理人員確實是有一些人力上的一些需求但是我們整個培育的過程目前所培育的等於說量是夠但是因為他留下來在醫療院所相關的一些工作的一個服務他真的是大概只剩下一半所以變成我們在人才培育的總體量"},{"start":566.649,"end":591.011,"text":"所以我們只好另外一種方法就是加大加多人數繼續培養更多的人嗎好不好當然我知道現在就是培養歸培養投入職場歸投入職場那另外就是說在可能也要拜託這一個這個中興大學在專業審查裡面所有他的proposal他也要有一套這你放心這個我們中興大學有品質的我們會處理好但是請你多照顧"},{"start":591.892,"end":611.612,"text":"但我想中興大學的農學院也很有名現任的農業部長陳俊基部長也都是中興寶寶從大學到博班都中興我想今天要盡一份心力校園實農教育的實踐基地也希望部裡能夠給予一個協助就我好像片面也了解好像是卓榮泰院長也是中興大學的"},{"start":612.466,"end":626.645,"text":"中興確實培養非常多的這個優秀人才對所以這個部分為台中我們最重要的幾位科大來發聲台中科大、新義科大、中興大學來為您拜託一下好嗎好我們請三位校長請回座謝謝"},{"start":629.326,"end":650.712,"text":"好那再來呢我想跟你探討部長去年年底新北市有發生這個校園割喉案教育部2月5日公告修正學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生的辦法注意事項就其中放寬了校安的檢查限制明確規範收書包原則及流程想和你探討看看部長請你看一下這張圖片"},{"start":652.532,"end":663.957,"text":"這是今年一到六月的校安通報以及去年同期關於暴力事件偏差行為所做的一個相關數量來做一個量化我們可以看到這些數量的一個比照"},{"start":665.236,"end":687.383,"text":"您先過目一下根據數據顯示從大學到國小暴力事件及偏差行為通報數量有顯著的增長而兒少的事件通報也同樣增長甚至在幼兒園的數據也高於去年同期那當然我記得部長有曾經說過當然就是說我們把這個黑數給發掘也是其中之一我們讚賞"},{"start":688.243,"end":705.744,"text":"但是我們還是要從這個數據裡面去做一個探討它的確是增長的一個狀況不管是不是有黑素的一個存在但是這樣子你覺得是否認同這反映出校園安全的問題有一點感覺到敏感度越來日漸嚴重您說呢"},{"start":706.55,"end":706.67,"text":"教育部長"},{"start":727.722,"end":745.742,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":745.802,"end":750.165,"text":"校安通報的事件類表屬性及名稱的一覽表其實在這裡面也並沒有明確規定收出違禁品必須通報這些數據的上升不是統計的偏差而是具體事件的反應"},{"start":764.794,"end":781.996,"text":"這些問題我們都希望點出校園的安全我們都重視我相信你也重視但是問題就是它逐漸的嚴重我們該怎麼去做防範本席提出兩點建議因為時間有限簡化校安檢查的一個流程我希望這個部分你們能夠重視你覺得呢"},{"start":783.224,"end":809.79,"text":"當然那目前我們有看到還有一個問題就是加強教師的一個培訓建議教育部加強對教師的一個校安處理能力的一個培訓能夠有更多的資源明確的指導確保教師在面對校園突發狀況的時候有足夠的權限以及專業的知識我想這兩個點希望你們帶回去做建議確實老師的真能怎麼樣讓他能夠協助這個學校的校安"},{"start":810.91,"end":837.135,"text":"有一個更好的友善環境這事實上是我們一直在努力當然做得不夠我們再來看我們一起加油但是看到這些暴力事件的數量增加都感到非常的沉重我是三個孩子的爸爸這些數字的背後都是一個又一個受到傷害的學生這些孩子都是每一個家長的寶貝希望教育部能夠重視這些問題我們一起給孩子更好的未來好嗎這應該這也是我們的責任好謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1000,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（13時37分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：順便也請幾所學校的校長，臺大校長、成大校長、中興大校長、勤益科大校長、臺中科大校長。"],["主席：校長們，請，辛苦了！"],["羅委員廷瑋：請校長們先站一下，不好意思喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。一個月前的10月16日，我問了部長一個問題，關於重啟陸生來臺的事情，一個月過後，我想先詢問一下，陸生來臺是當時賴清德總統說過的政見，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你個人支持陸生來臺嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，事實上，在我上任時也對媒體表達過，我們是歡迎的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們支持？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：臺大的校長，校長，你支持嗎？"],["陳校長文章：委員好，我支持，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：成大的校長？"],["沈校長孟儒：我支持國家的政策。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，興大的校長，謝謝。"],["詹校長富智：委員好，我們也支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，臺中科大？"],["陳校長同孝：委員好，我們支持，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，勤益科大，謝謝。"],["陳校長文淵：支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝大家的表態。因為這個關係，我想再請問部長，關於你的相關回復，本席還沒有收到，目前一個月過去了，請問還要多久可以給本席？"],["鄭部長英耀：非常抱歉！看起來這是我們的疏漏，我們會後馬上……"],["羅委員廷瑋：一個月前你有答應我，還記得嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還記得嗎？還是你忘了？"],["鄭部長英耀：真的有太多事情了，我想我們主管的業務單位會積極改善。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不要到時候你真的當了體育部部長，我還是一樣會追去那邊找你喔！昨天你自己毛遂自薦嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：我想今天最高興的是委員昨天的質詢，我們看到臺灣隊贏了韓國，真的非常欣慰。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們一起來努力。","重啟陸生來臺是賴清德總統的政見，在座各校校長也都歡迎陸生，因此，我們是幫忙賴清德總統爭取政見能夠落實。現行主要是透過陸聯會的機制開放陸生來臺，但因為兩岸關係的惡化，陸方也對賴清德總統的一些言論不滿，這些都是兩岸政治的問題，我們不談，現在我們在乎的是教育政策以及學校的經營。非要透過陸聯會這個唯一的管道嗎？教育部有沒有更積極的作為？這個部分有沒有其他限制性的法規、方向來做思考？"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，過去兩岸的學位生確實是透過陸聯會，但是我們也主動在南臺科大設置我們的PO辦公室，在整個主動聯絡的過程中，對方確實都沒有回復。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我說一定要有其他的作為嘛！對不對？難道你要在這邊直接宣布賴清德總統的政見破功、無法達成嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上，目前兩岸各大學的一些短期交流還是有的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，現在各個學校為什麼急迫地需要陸生，您應該最清楚吧！因為少子化的關係，因為招生不易的關係。"],["鄭部長英耀：提供兩岸有更多教育的交流，更好的理解，並理解這個差異，然後能夠彼此有一個更好的互動，我想這也是我們在人才培育上……"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席要提到的是，為什麼我們積極的探討這個政見，一方面希望能夠落實，一方面其實我們收到很多大學端、學校的陳情，關於所謂陸聯會目前斷絕消息，我們該有什麼樣方式能夠讓陸生再來臺，我想很多學校都很期待，我希望部長就這個部分能夠積極的想辦法，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們來努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。我請臺大跟成大的校長先回座，謝謝。","部長，我另外再跟你請教一下，本席一直在關心一件政府機構的公告，這是辦理約聘人員職缺的案子，想跟你請教一下，該公告之徵才所需的條件、資格，其內容寫著「國內外醫藥民生、生命科學等領域相關科系學士以上學歷」等，本席一直很好奇，因為有聽過「醫藥衛生」或者是「醫藥」、「衛生」，但就是沒有聽過「醫藥民生」，對此，本席也於11月12日8時發文給教育部詢問，但今天遇到部長，我想用問的比較快，因為您本身也曾任中山大學的校長，中山大學本身也有醫學院、理學院、社科院、海洋科學院等學院，非常完整，但是請問一下部長，醫藥民生究竟是具備何等領域的，何等科系畢業之學士才符合公告中的標準？"],["鄭部長英耀：醫藥基本上很清楚，就是醫學相關跟藥……"],["羅委員廷瑋：「醫藥」很清楚，但「民生」呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：「民生」比較是來自生活上許多的的部分，包含生活科學等等的這些。"],["羅委員廷瑋：生活科學？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我覺得它的範疇有點廣，法律系算不算民生？"],["鄭部長英耀：這要看怎麼定義。"],["羅委員廷瑋：民法算不算民生？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：經濟系算不算民生？"],["鄭部長英耀：廣義來講，當然也可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：買賣東西，算不算民生？所以我越講越覺得奇怪，如果是醫藥民生、是民生，就是民生學院畢業科系就算的話，同樣的邏輯，賴清德總統是醫學院物理治療學系，那他可以直接去考醫生，為什麼還要念學士後醫學系，難道他是傻子嗎？對於現在的徵才，我們一直在講，衛福部也被我一直在糾正，要寫清楚、說明白，你們到底需要什麼樣的人才，不要有任何的模糊空間，我們不希望透過這些模糊空間開放一些模糊空間的人，讓其能夠錄取，這個部分我想我表達得夠清楚吧！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席沒有特意針對誰，只是想請問科系要納進什麼樣的學院，到底有沒有什麼標準，不然社工系看起來也像社會科學院，對不對？怎麼會納進民生學院？部長，這很重要，因為政府機關公告辦理約聘用人員職缺一案，就以學院來區分，而不是科系屬性，教育部若沒有律定清楚人事會亂！"],["鄭部長英耀：我想在許多的徵才，當然是有一些主修或者專長上的概念在裡面，但是有時候會有比較模糊的、比較寬廣的一個定義，在人才recruit的過程裡面，我想他們大概也是希望，如果真的有跨領域的，也不排斥有那樣一個機會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果有跨領域，沒關係，你都寫出來，寫清楚、說明白，不要這麼的文謅謅，因為這會讓很多想要去面試的人都會……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們大學校長都聽到了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這部分我希望大家要注意，就是人事聘用這個部分，真的，我沒有針對個案，我希望大家要記得，這些條件資格要講清楚、說明白。","其實我現在還有一個校安事件違禁品規範的問題要跟你做一個探討，但你後面站著三位，所以我還是先處理後面這三位，部長，您知道我是什麼學校畢業的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不好意思！"],["羅委員廷瑋：我是中興大學畢業的校友，我也是勤益科大畢業的，臺中科大沒考上，就只好去讀勤益科大……"],["鄭部長英耀：可是現在的發展，看起來你生命在勤益跟中興轉彎……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，但是這三所學校對我來說，在臺中都是非常重要的，我想為這三所學校來請命，也希望能夠多多爭取一些預算，其中我要先跟你提到，中興大學想要爭取學士後護理系，這沒有rehearsal過的，都是我自己去調查了解的；AI生成式的實驗所；以及校園食農教育的實踐基地；以及我一直在跟你講的老舊校舍改善。部長，希望上述的計畫可以多多幫忙，後續勤益科大、臺中科大，我也會持續努力跟你追蹤。但是要跟您報告一下，因為我是本委員會委員，又跟這三所有淵源，我希望部長能夠多幫我們照顧一下，尤其現在我要跟你探討的就是學士後護理系，剛剛陳昭姿委員也有提到，我們早上也有過開記者會，為護理人員發聲，護理人力已經吃緊了，許多醫院都關床，中興大學有心要辦學士後護理系，應該給予大力的支持，可以認同嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在第一線現場的護理人員，確實是有一些人力上的需求，但是我們整個培育的過程，目前的量是夠的，但是因為他會留下來在醫療院所從事相關的一些工作、服務，屆時真的大概只剩下一半，所以變成我們在人才培育的總體量是夠的，但是實際上留下來的是不夠的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們只好用另外一種方法，就是加大、加多人數，繼續培養更多的人，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我知道現在就是培養歸培養，投入職場歸投入職場。"],["鄭部長英耀：另外，可能也要拜託中興大學，在專業審查裡面所有它的proposal，也要有一套……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這您放心，我們中興大學是有品質的，我們會處理好，但請您多照顧。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想中興大學的農學院也很有名，現任的農業部長陳駿季部長也都是中興寶寶，從大學到博班都是中興，今天我想要盡一份心力，校園食農教育的實踐基地，也希望部裡能夠給予一個協助，就我片面了解，好像卓榮泰院長也是中興大學。"],["鄭部長英耀：中興確實培養非常多優秀的人才。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以在此為臺中最重要的幾間科大來發聲，臺中科大、勤益科大，中興大學，拜託您一下，好嗎？好，三位校長請回座，謝謝。","再來，我想跟部長探討，去年年底新北市有發生校園割喉案，教育部2月5日公告修正學校訂定教師輔導與管教學生辦法注意事項，其中放寬了校安的檢查限制，明確規範搜書包原則及流程。想和部長探討看看，請你看一下這張圖片，這是今年1到6月的校安通報各項數據，以及去年同期關於暴力事件及偏差行為的相關數據，來做一個量化，我們可以看到這些數量的比照，您先過目一下，根據數據顯示，從大學到國小暴力事件及偏差行為通報數量有顯著的增長，而兒少事件的通報也同樣在增長，甚至在幼兒園的數據也高於去年同期，當然我記得部長曾經說過，我們把黑數發掘出來，這也是其中之一，對此，我們很讚賞，但是我們還是要從這個數據裡面去做一個探討，它的確是一個增長的狀況，不管是不是有黑數的存在，但是你是否認同這反映出校園安全的問題，有一點感覺到敏感度日漸嚴重，您說呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心校園的安全，確實當我們直接從數據來看，我們本來的立意就希望不要有黑數，但是，我們在整個通報的過程裡面、在系統裡面，我也責成我們學特司，以後的通報，不要只是有一個事件，我們能不能有一個更豐富的訊息，讓我們去理解各個學校、各級教育或是許多校園的暴力或者一些校安事件的狀況，讓我們在政策上，或者與地方政府的合作上，跟學校能夠有一些更具體的政策上的介入……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我另外還有一個數據，請看看現行的校安通報事件類表、屬性及名稱一覽表，這裡面其實也並沒有明確規定搜出違禁品必須通報，而這些數據的上升，不是統計上的偏差，而是具體事件的一個反映，這些校園安全問題我們都重視，我相信你也重視，但是問題就是它逐漸的嚴重，我們該怎麼去做防範呢？本席提出兩點建議，因為時間有限，首先，簡化校安檢查的一個流程，我希望這個部分你們能夠重視，您覺得呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前我們還看到一個問題，就是加強教師的培訓，建議教育部加強對教師校安處理能力的培訓，能夠有更多的資源、明確的指導，確保教師在面對校園突發狀況的時候，有足夠的權限以及專業的知識，我想這兩個點請帶回研議。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，確實老師的增能，看看怎麼樣讓他能夠協助學校的校安，有一個更好的友善環境，事實上是我們一直在努力的，當然做得不夠，我們會再來看怎麼做，並與地方一起來合作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們一起加油，但是看到這些暴力事件的數量增加，都感到非常的沉重，我是3個孩子的爸爸，這些數字的背後，都是一個又一個受到傷害的學生，這些孩子都是每一個家長的寶貝，希望教育部能夠重視這些問題，我們一起給孩子更好的未來，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，這是應該的，也是我們的責任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長等請回，謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢。再來我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content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所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基\n金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基\n金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金；三、審查114年度行政法人國\n家運動訓練中心預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00006"}}},{"id":"156961","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156961","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bfc879e2c7f287e5ef5866fb8dd1f9315ea15901506589ece09846c1f907d8ca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"13:29:05 - 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實施這叫做99.3嗎?只要有學校實施就叫做實施可是有學校裡面只有一個年級執行的話這樣子普遍孩子有真的接受到交通安全教育為什麼對這一塊特別的關注也就是今天交通史商已經是佔兒少史商最高的第一位的時候為什麼國家可以這麼不重視教育部怎麼不"},{"start":291.81,"end":307.808,"text":"則不落實我們的交通安全教育呢?更何況我們看到這個零散的交通安全宣導教育部有一度跟學校要求說要4小時那怎麼達到4小時呢?就是每一個招會"},{"start":308.669,"end":334.731,"text":"本來要你上課結果你是每一個招會10分鐘然後只要24次就達到你所謂的4小時這真的有讓孩子更懂得怎麼去自我保護嗎更何況我們現在看到的是校慶滾輪胎然後扮演車子的造型這個叫交通安全宣導嗎甚至印筆製或者是繪畫書法這些真的都是在滿足到我們孩子的學習嗎那"},{"start":336.593,"end":356.273,"text":"教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫"},{"start":359.736,"end":367.398,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院"},{"start":389.582,"end":418.244,"text":"不理編針對這一塊要重視不是一個學校只有一個年級如果執行三年級我就問你四年級會不會發生交通事故五年級會不會發生交通事故甚至一二年級的話更嚴重可是都沒有在做所以如果你編了這樣的錢我也希望在後端因為這個預算我還是要很慎重來評估所以請部長你們可能要回去看看你們到底要怎麼去執行否則後邊大概預算你可能要去思考那就"},{"start":419.105,"end":419.125,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":442.476,"end":442.696,"text":"委員會主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":982,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（13時29分）主席，謝謝，我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長，辛苦了！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，應該的。"],["林委員月琴：因為要審預算，今天還是要針對教育部提出2件我一直很關心的事，一個是不當對待的問題、一個是交通安全教育的落實。","目前看到的狀況，就不當對待來講，過去我在民間團體就已經接到非常多不當對待的案件，進到立法院之後常常在我的臉書或我的後台也都會收到這樣的陳情案，從這些陳情案中的許多問題可以看出並沒有給予地方政府SOP，譬如通報在社會局與教育局的理解都不太一樣，甚至學校老師都不知道要怎麼通報。此外，認定委員會的比例事實上是失衡的、監視畫面為什麼不給家長看、或是在我看完之後就全部刪除以至於我無法報案，如果我的孩子受到傷害也是石沉大海無法進行調查，甚至不知道是基於什麼理由，調查報告也不給家長看。如果你要給當事人看的話，為什麼只給老師那一方，卻不給受傷害學生的家長這一方來看？因此，我想請問部長，之前我就已經向教育部提過，幼教法與子法的通報並不一樣，為什麼子法會牴觸到母法而要你們修法？此外，認定委員會的比例失衡是教師占比比較多、兒少權益的占比比較少。因此，我想請問部長，你們的修法何時會完成？給地方的SOP流程是什麼？民眾是否知道到底要如何通報？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，關於我們如何確保兒少權益，過去的認定委員會也因應委員長期的關心，我們確實也已經朝外加幼兒性平領域的學者專家能夠調高到3人。"],["林委員月琴：我認為3人是不夠的，因為我過去也是在認定委員會，常常舉手都舉不贏其他的人，最後孩子的權益並沒有被保障。此外，你的子法不可以牴觸母法，也就是說，你的通報怎麼會是與母法相反的，所以也請你盡速。明年教育部在整個學前教育的行政及督導經費編列了695億，其中完善法令與行政預算與前一年相同，但是我們剛剛看到的這些都是要去處理，你要如何督促地方？首先請你們將子法與母法統一，並將SOP處理流程好好地拿出來，否則我對這次的這一塊預算是有意見的。","接下來是關於交通安全的問題，教育部有編列預算要去推動，但是，實際上我們看到的是亂糟糟，為什麼會亂糟糟？融入是融入到哪裡？過去我們看到要融入國文課，要孩子寫關於交通安全的成語，孩子就寫一馬當先、鵬程萬里，我說一馬當先大概就掛了，也就不會鵬程萬里了。因此，我不知道為什麼要融入國文課？怎麼會是把交通安全融入國文課、甚至是融入數學課、甚至是融入英文課，只要學習交通的英文標誌或標語即可，這個不會改變他的交通觀念。甚至我也不太清楚你的統計標準，這邊都說有達到七成、八成、九成，都說有執行，就我在現場的了解，臺北市有99.3%，但是每個學校只有一個年級實施，這叫做99.3%嗎？只要有學校實施就叫做實施，但是學校裡只有一個年級執行的話，這樣孩子真的普遍都有接受到交通安全教育嗎？為什麼對這一塊特別的關注，當今天交通死傷已經占兒少死傷最高的第一位時，為什麼我們國家可以這麼不重視？教育部怎麼不落實交通安全教育呢？更何況我們看到這個零散的交通安全宣導，教育部一度要求學校要有4小時，怎麼達到4小時呢？每一個朝會本來是要你上課，結果你是每一個朝會花10分鐘，只要24次就能達到你所謂的4小時，這樣真的有讓孩子更懂得如何自我保護嗎？更何況我們現在看到的是校慶滾輪胎、扮演車子的造型，這個能稱為交通安全宣導嗎？甚至是硬筆字、繪畫或書法等等，這些真的滿足到孩子的學習嗎？沒有一個完整的制度作為規範。沒有錯，目前教育部已經弄了一個指引，這個指引只有誰會去遵循？只有要參加你們交通安全評鑑的人才會去遵循。今天每個縣市只派一所學校出來被你評鑑的話，問題是一個縣市如果有三百多所學校卻只有一所學校執行這件事情，你覺得這樣子合理嗎？根本就沒辦法改變這樣的現象。","另外一個就是你的種子師資培訓也比較欠缺完整的交通安全知能，甚至到目前為止，還有很多老師連標線、標誌或號誌都會講錯、都搞不清楚，紅綠燈到底是從左到右或是從右到左都不知道，若是在繪畫中呈現出錯誤觀念時也沒辦法指正。因此，希望部裡針對這一塊要重視，不是一個學校只有一個年級，如果是執行三年級，我就問你四年級會不會發生交通事故、五年級會不會發生交通事故，甚至一、二年級可能會更嚴重，這些都沒有在做。如果你們編列了這樣的經費，我也希望在後端……因為我對這個預算還是要很慎重的評估，部長，可能要回去看看你們到底要如何執行，否則你可能要思考後端的預算會被採用凍結的方式，以上。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，我想落實交通安全讓每一個小孩子在行的方面獲得確實的保障是我們要努力的事情。剛剛委員非常深入的提出許多執行面上的疏漏，我是不是在會後讓彭署長去向你請益，如何與地方落實交通安全教育的執行。"],["林委員月琴：部長，真的要做！因為今年到9月孩子才生到九萬多，孩子都這麼少了，在每個孩子都不能少的狀況下，一定要從問題最嚴重的交通安全來著手。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：部長、署長及院長，請回。謝謝林月琴委員的質詢。","再來請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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一圈嗎"},{"start":36.879,"end":45.986,"text":"呃,我很想跑,但是因為確實我自己,呃,這一個來,你走路一圈也可以啦欸,那也沒問題,那好,您答應了嘛,沒問題啊,但前提是他要蓋的成啦,他要蓋的成"},{"start":50.54,"end":66.72,"text":"我跟部長說北科大我們的王校長提出這個環校步道當時跟我講的時候我真的是覺得非常驚豔為什麼呢這環校步道如果落成政府學校市民學生市營百利而無一害"},{"start":67.561,"end":85.771,"text":"但是抱歉我這一年當立委以後我跟王校長不知道找農水署找市政府找很多單位開了無數次協調會總覺得事情開始有曙光了又好像又是差了一步所以今天只好來找部長了我跟部長說其實大概情形是這樣"},{"start":87.412,"end":112.121,"text":"這個環校步道大概在它的東西跟南三面是沒問題因為這三面都是北科大的地所以沒問題但北面有幾塊卡到了農水署的地但是農水署的地其實荒在那幾十年基本上也完全沒有辦法做任何運用因為道理很簡單嘛北科大的建築物在這邊農水署的地就貼在建築物旁邊它根本蓋不了任何東西"},{"start":113.081,"end":139.941,"text":"可是呢就是荒在那個地方不做任何處理也沒辦法做任何處理那北科大希望說能夠在上面蓋個步道那建設經費是北科大自己來募自己來籌自己來出但是很奇怪就是卡住了所以我要跟部長說啊能不能麻煩部長也加入我們這個協調的陣容跟農業部跟台北市政府共同促成這一件好事好不好"},{"start":142.602,"end":166.411,"text":"聽聞這麼一講雖然是我第一次對不起喔第一次理解看起來它是一個不錯的想法大學的資源跟社區能夠分享我想那是一個美麗的一個想像這是非常美麗的想像所以我很佩服北科大提出的概念就是卡在什麼卡在各個單位說有什麼法規問題但我要特別講剛剛其實我們胡春生委員講"},{"start":168.965,"end":196.283,"text":"川普總統找了馬斯克要成立政府效率部我真的覺得這個案子不只是北科大這個建設卡住的問題我都覺得這其實是政府效能當中我們覺得要好好的來去改進的一塊部分因為有時候我們講政府在做事情理論上應該是要想辦法找出辦法說沒問題如果這個建設是好的對不對可是我在這個溝通協調過程當中我常常看到的是找出問題說沒辦法"},{"start":198.204,"end":222.278,"text":"所以因此這一個北科大的一個環校步道我真的在這邊還是拜託部長我有機會可能也要去拜訪您一下那看有沒有辦法去協調農業部我想我已經充分了解我來跟這一個王校長來看這件事那我覺得教育部一起來幫忙啦當然其實我們這麼多協調會不是白開啦基本上也獲得一些進展但是我希望能夠加速這個整個溝通的過程"},{"start":222.958,"end":239.244,"text":"我們是針對很多各個單位提出來的所謂的法規的問題不斷的找解方那我也希望說因為教育部是主管機關嘛所以能夠一起來參與把這個解方找出來來促成這個利而無一害的事情好不好部長"},{"start":241.906,"end":260.742,"text":"謝謝校長另外因為時間的問題我很快的來說我們的學習歷程檔案制度是做大學多元入校跟四季二專統策招生的依據現在上路6年了對不對也編了大概13.4億的預算來辦理對不對我想請問部長你覺得對於成效你滿意嗎你打幾分"},{"start":269.943,"end":270.591,"text":"我基本上我覺得"},{"start":273.021,"end":297.917,"text":"這對新世代年輕人的發展是有幫助的我跟部長說如果是經濟弱勢學生的家長恐怕會打不及格我舉幾個數字事實上從108年到112年經濟弱勢學生的課程學習成果未提交的比例從24.66%增加到42.25%然後多元表現的未提交比例是從46.34成長到62.32"},{"start":303.181,"end":312.886,"text":"我看到是經濟弱勢學生在這個制度體系之下他們顯得是步履蠻山非常困難而且情況是越來越嚴重不知道部長有掌握到嗎"},{"start":314.192,"end":338.26,"text":"我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣跟第一線上的這個高中職能夠有一個共同的我最後做一個簡單的結論啦事實上我跟部長應該都屬於大學聯考時代的人嘛對不對雖然當時的學習方式有人批評很八股缺乏彈性但是呢他實際上有一個優點就是公平嘛"},{"start":339.011,"end":352.082,"text":"所以像我自己就是碼頭工人之子賴總統也是礦工之子我常常在想今天這個制度如果是我是以我那時候家庭背景的話我恐怕也教不出這些什麼多元學期的歷程為什麼因為"},{"start":353.786,"end":378.797,"text":"我們的家庭我父母親可能小學都沒有畢業他們自己也沒有辦法提供我這方面做一個所謂的協助的時候靠自己學生來去做那就是等於是考你的原生家庭的經濟實力了嘛所以此這個部分不是說反對這個制度但是如果造成我前面講的衰退這麼多的提交比那我認為對經濟弱勢學生是非常不公平的拜託我們部長能夠好好檢討這件事情好不好"},{"start":379.56,"end":404.142,"text":"所以我們來這個時候我來更了解來更努力來看怎麼樣對弱勢的學生有一個更多的一些支持我想將心比心誠如委員所言我也是來自於一個相對弱勢的一個理念所以我覺得怎麼樣讓經濟弱勢的學生不要被這個制度所耽誤這是我們共同關心的事情好 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336,"end":173.099,"text":"我想當然這個少子化學生人數確實是減少那物價指數當然有一些這個也有部分的增加但是就陳儒委員今天關心的大學怎麼樣永續發展從終身學習的一個概念讓大學有一個更更好的一些這個發展我想"},{"start":174,"end":198.054,"text":"這也是政府基本上的一個態度我們希望他能夠在教育品質隨著這個經費在我們的這個整個總體的一個這個經濟裡邊我們能夠有更多的一些資源來挹注這個大學今天新聞當中很被重視的就是川普宣布要成立政府效率部"},{"start":198.934,"end":226.673,"text":"然後指派由馬斯克還有拉瑪斯瓦米兩位企業家來率領領導政府的效率部他們認為政府要解構官僚體系消除凡文怒節、尊潔浪費支出、重整聯邦機構這一個部長覺得我們中華民國政府是不是也需要來一個效率部"},{"start":229.183,"end":232.905,"text":"政府的效率這是每一個國家都會追求的。"},{"start":243.532,"end":259.405,"text":"這絕對是大大的支持在國會當中對於教育很多但是我們這個的效率是不是能夠更加的精實、更加的精進包括很多大學看起來財務還是虧損狀態還是國立的所以這一個還是要有企業家精神"},{"start":268.173,"end":269.517,"text":"還是我們教育應該有經濟的地方還是很多啦"},{"start":275.506,"end":300.146,"text":"然後這裡來講就是說這一直我在立法院提倡的叫壯士代這個是國發會的資料我們1970年代的時候人口是長金字塔的樣子年齡中位數是19歲也就是說一半的人在19歲以下到2040年我們的年齡中位數是52歲"},{"start":302.789,"end":318.581,"text":"從19歲到變成52歲這是一個社會結構最基本的東西各位跟教育絕對有非常密切的關係不曉得大家有沒有注意到整個教育體系所以現在因為"},{"start":319.662,"end":335.319,"text":"大家都還是停留在1970年代的思維金字塔認為年輕的孩子很多所以才會造成現在大學的困境從這個表當中國畫會的推估今年我們的大學人口還有87萬到2040年會剩下67萬"},{"start":339.642,"end":354.869,"text":"如果到了2070年如果低推過來獎會剩下31萬幾乎剩下三分之一那我不曉得所謂的學校的一個計畫有沒有把這個變數納進來整個教育的一個"},{"start":360.992,"end":387.51,"text":"部長你剛來的時候所以我也給你加油我們鄭部長第一個有提悟到這個問題因為針對少子化所以大學要敞開大門大學不是只有18歲來唸的我們應該是全年齡都可以來唸的部長一開始我記得對委員提出第三人生大學這個壯士代也非常的佩服包括那個林青霞"},{"start":389.471,"end":400.5,"text":"說他在電影裡面經常演大學生,但是他最大遺憾就是沒進大學現在我們60歲,平均60歲退休,60歲已經將近600萬人"},{"start":403.127,"end":421.664,"text":"這些人大概只有10%人經過大學因為以前大學門檻很高很難進去所以這些人叫圓夢嘛他們想進大學那這是不是一個很好這些人掌握壯世代55歲以上掌握臺灣三分之二的財富"},{"start":422.705,"end":450.114,"text":"然後呢他們很想進大學這是我對委員配伍的地方因為他確實是一個很好的想法如果企業家來講早就想到這個也會有我們終身學習的一個政策另外這個是解決少子化的問題我們未來因為高齡化這叫扶養比高齡化被扶養的當分子然後工作人口當分母"},{"start":451.014,"end":475.456,"text":"因為高齡化所以分子越來越大因為少子化分母越來越小目前是3.6比1啦3.6個人撫養一個到2041年變2比1到2057年變1比1年輕人就被壓垮了啦那怎麼解決撞世代的方法就是把分子撞起來拉下來當分母嘛分母就很強壯那怎麼撞起來就是要進大學啊"},{"start":476.718,"end":491.836,"text":"他們到60歲現在醫學很發達還有30年健康認證不要把他們變成是一個被撫養的人而是能夠投入社會積極貢獻所以第三認證大學對他們來講非常的重要是嗎?部長同意?"},{"start":492.116,"end":509.348,"text":"我剛才特別提到說對委員我進來聽到委員的一些對整個人的生涯的發展包括大學如何去拓展這個結合終身學習有更多的一些人能夠進入到大學資源那麼豐富我們應該能夠善加應用"},{"start":511.57,"end":532.075,"text":"那個部長這一份是6月3號的時候發給我的文你就是說你就任之後發給我的第一份文就是壯世代第三屆人生教育機制的延逸情形的一個計畫有回報來所以表示很積極剛上任就有積極的回應那我們看這回應當中"},{"start":533.375,"end":548.75,"text":"有提出了短期有做第三人生大學的一個核心課程的研磨的計畫中期就是要開始有一個試辦計畫長期要把第三人生大學跟學位來銜接當時過來的這一份計畫書是這樣寫"},{"start":553.891,"end":580.033,"text":"那所以在座給各位大學校長了解教育部現在是要推動這個東西嗎?是嗎?是我們可以跟各大學而且經過後來的公聽會教育部也有參與也經對於方法在研究從學士學位的學程專班或者是多元專長的學位學程專班看起來內容都已經有對事辦計畫有具體的進度了"},{"start":586.776,"end":596.958,"text":"事實上有很多學校包括華藩大學、包括公共大學都已經響應想要來做第三人生大學而且正式在招生執行所以這個事辦計畫"},{"start":603.652,"end":620.864,"text":"目前進行狀況怎麼樣?可不可以請部長也跟大家講一下?是不是呈這個施掌?包委員,大概這個事辦計畫我們現在已經研擬了相對的距離接下來就會跟學校來做溝通預計年底就會來完成這個事辦計畫明年會來對外說明,謝謝"},{"start":625.5,"end":637.409,"text":"明年1月份可以推動事辦,但是外面都不太了解,是不是教育部可以多多倡導一下?"},{"start":642.409,"end":655.914,"text":"那接下來就是說這個事辦之後是不是開放全國大專業校來廣泛的建立第三人生大學目前看原來的長程計畫有這一個"},{"start":660.296,"end":678.384,"text":"長期規劃我們事實上確實是這樣想法我一直認為我們大學能不能永續發展能不能發展出特色有許多的學校你真的不要再設想你的大一新生是18歲你不要再去搶18歲然後我們大學在30歲以後事實上我們"},{"start":679.164,"end":687.329,"text":"台灣現在目前的教育的一個現況人才培育的一個現況大部分都是大學畢業或者研究所畢業他們投入職場"},{"start":688.949,"end":716.722,"text":"當他重新回到大學他可能因為產業人這個能力上的需求可能因為生涯發展上的改變可能因為修器上的一些需要以大學現在的提供的這個課程跟施施的能量他事實上是可以更海納百川讓30歲以後的人不管他進來臨床整護或者進來休學我想許多的那個可能正是我們教育部目前內部在規劃的"},{"start":718.262,"end":744.07,"text":"這個就是我最後這個等於部長在我們各大學五菱盟主不是五菱盟主教壇盟主跟各大學校長做的承諾也就是說我們要來推動而且從明年第一季開始試辦而且接下來要鼓勵全國的大專院校來推動第三人生大學那大學會變得更精彩"},{"start":744.69,"end":744.991,"text":"部長、次長等請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":896,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（13時9分）有請鄭部長及張廖次長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長及張廖次長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：部長好、張廖次長好。今天在座有47位大學校長，每一位大學校長都是我非常尊敬的人，但是在這裡我要特別彰顯教育部長、次長在教壇上就是教壇盟主，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：不敢。"],["吳委員春城：怎麼會不敢？你今天都率領了……"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我們是合作夥伴、合作夥伴。"],["吳委員春城：沒有、沒有，因為我是教文委員會的委員，在這裡要彰顯一點，教育部長到立法院來是很受尊重的、是很受尊重的。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：而且我們要討論的是有層次的問題，行政與立法是可以合作無間、也是一個進步的國家團隊。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員春城：因此，以下我想要與大家討論的議題，也與在座的大學校長相關，少子女化下的大學困境有何解方？上一次，10月16日我提出了這個質詢，後來被修理得很慘。我提出這個表說學生越來越少、預算越來越多，從93年教育預算是1,367億到113年是3,390億，增加了2,000億，但是我們的學生人數從93年的505萬到113年的404萬，減少了100萬人，為什麼預算越來越多？大家就說這個委員太俗氣了，教育是崇高的事業，怎麼可以用錢來計算！"],["鄭部長英耀：應該沒有這樣的意思。"],["吳委員春城：沒有這樣的意思喔？是不是請部長解釋，這是什麼狀況？"],["鄭部長英耀：基於少子化的因素，學生人數確實是減少了，然而物價指數當然也有部分的增加，但是誠如委員今天關心的大學該如何永續發展，從終身學習的概念讓大學有更好的發展，我想這也是政府基本上的態度，希望藉由教育經費提高能夠對於大學教育品質有更多的資源挹注。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝。今天新聞中很被重視的是川普宣布成立政府效率部，並指派由馬斯克及拉馬斯瓦米兩位企業家領導政府效率部。他們認為政府要解構官僚體系、消除繁文縟節、撙節浪費支出、並重整聯邦機構。部長，你覺得我們中華民國政府是不是也需要一個效率部？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想政府效率是每個國家都會追求的。"],["吳委員春城：剛剛我要講的就是怎麼發揮，我們在國會當然絕對是給予教育大大的支持，但是在效率上是不是能夠更加精實、更加精進？很多大學的財務看起來還是虧損狀態、還是國立的，因此，這個還是要有企業家精神，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我完全同意。"],["吳委員春城：我們教育應該精進的地方還是很多啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員春城：我在立法院一直提倡所謂的壯世代，根據國發會的資料，1970年代我們的人口數長得就像金字塔的樣子，年齡的中位數是19歲，也就是有一半的人在19歲以下，到了2040年我們的年齡中位數是52歲，從19歲變成52歲。這是一個社會結構最基本的東西，各位，與教育絕對有非常密切的關係，不知道大家有沒有注意到？因為大家現在還是停留在1970年代的思維，認為年輕人、孩子很多，也因此才會造成大學的困境。從這個表可以看到國發會的推估，今年我們的大學人口還有87萬人，到了2040年將會剩下67萬人，如果以低推估來講，到了2070年將剩下31萬人，幾乎剩下三分之一，我不知道學校的計畫有沒有將這個變數納進來。部長，在你剛上任之時，我也是為你加油。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：鄭部長第一個就體悟到這個少子化的問題，因此大學要敞開大門，大學不是只有18歲來唸的，應該是全年齡都可以來學習的地方。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我對委員提出的壯世代第三人生大學也非常佩服。"],["吳委員春城：包括林青霞說自己經常在電影中飾演大學生，但她最大的遺憾就是沒有進大學，現在平均是60歲退休，而且60歲已經有將近600萬人，在這些人當中大概只有10%的人進過大學，因為以前大學的門檻很高、很難進去，所以這些人想要圓夢、想要進大學，況且這些55歲以上的壯世代掌握了臺灣三分之二的財富，既然他們也很想進大學，多好的生意啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：這也是我對委員佩服的地方，它確實是一個很好的想法。"],["吳委員春城：對啊！各大學有沒有想到這個啊？如果是企業家，早就想到這個了。"],["鄭部長英耀：也呼應我們終身學習的政策。"],["吳委員春城：對，這個也是解決少子化的問題。我們就扶養比而言，被扶養的人當分子、工作人口當分母，因為高齡化，分子越來越大；因為少子化，分母越來越小。目前是3.6：1，每3.6個人扶養1個人，到了2040年變成2：1、到了2057年變成1：1，年輕人就被壓垮了啦！怎麼解決？方法就是把分子壯起來、拉下來當分母，這樣分母就會很強壯。怎麼壯起來？就是要進大學啊！現在的醫學很發達，60歲的人還有30年的健康人生，不要把他們變成被扶養的人，而是要讓他們能夠投入社會積極貢獻，所以第三人生大學對他們而言非常的重要，是吧？部長，同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，剛才我也特別提到，上任後對於委員針對人的生涯發展提出的一些看法感到佩服，包括大學如何拓展並結合終身學習，讓更多的人能夠進入大學，資源那麼豐富，我們應該能夠善加運用。"],["吳委員春城：部長，這份是6月3日發給我的文，也是在你就任之後發給我的第一份文，針對「壯世代第三人生教育機制研議情形」計畫的回報，表示你剛上任就很積極的回應。我們看到在這個回應中提出，短期是進行第三人生大學核心課程模組研發計畫、中期是開始試辦計畫、長期是將第三人生大學與學位銜接，當時你們送來的計畫書是這樣寫的。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員春城：也讓在座的大學校長了解教育部現在是要推動這個東西，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員春城：而且教育部也有參與後來舉辦的公聽會，無論是學士學位的學程專班、或是多元專長的學位學程專班，從內容看起來都已經對試辦計畫有具體的進度了。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員春城：事實上，有很多的學校，包括華梵大學、包括空中大學都已經響應、都想要辦理第三人生大學，並且已經正式招生執行了。關於這個試辦計畫，目前進行的狀況是怎麼樣，可不可以請部長向大家說明一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是請司長來說明？"],["梁司長學政：報告委員，我們已經研擬了相關的試辦計畫，接下來就是與學校進行溝通，預計年底就會完成試辦計畫，明年將會對外說明，謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：我聽說明年1月就可以開始推動試辦，但是外界似乎都不太了解，教育部是不是可以多多倡導一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們來倡導。"],["吳委員春城：在試辦之後，是不是就開放全國大專院校廣泛設立第三人生大學？目前看起來，原本的長程計畫中有這個項目，部長，是不是有……"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，事實上，我們的長期規劃確實是有這樣的想法。我一直認為我們的大學能不能永續發展、能不能發展出特色，許多學校真的不要再設想大一新生是18歲、不要再去搶18歲的部分。事實上，以目前臺灣教育的現況、人才培育的現況，大部分都是大學畢業或研究所畢業就投入職場。不過他可能因為產業能力上的需求、可能因為生涯發展上的改變、可能因為休憩上的需要，決定重新回到大學。以現在大學提供的課程及師資的能量，事實上是可以更海納百川，讓30歲以上的人，無論是進來零存整付或是進來修學位，我想許多的可能正是我們教育部目前內部正在規劃的。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝。部長是我們各大學的武林盟主，不是，應該是教壇盟主，與各位大學校長所做的承諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們是合作夥伴。"],["吳委員春城：也就是說，我們要來推動，從明年第一季開始試辦，接下來要鼓勵全國大專院校推動第三人生大學，如此一來，大學會變得更精采、會變得更充實，善用高齡者的智力，開發他們的產能，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：部長及次長等，請回。謝謝吳春城委員的質詢。","再來請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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一部分剛剛剛剛尋答是這樣沒錯嘛這問題很簡單嘛對對講那麼複雜我想問一下明年台電大概要繳多少碳費"},{"start":163.656,"end":177.903,"text":"他們其實會很努力啦那目前我們估應該是五億以下吧五億以下是不是?對對對五億以下好沒關係那個那因為明年就非核家園啦核電退出嘛那二氧化碳會增加嗎?"},{"start":179.303,"end":207.77,"text":"發電過程排放二氧化碳會增加嗎?因為目前我所掌握的數據我們的綠能的比例持續在往上走所以排蛋係數是逐步的往下走當中所以明年的非核價格以後因為綠能的增加所以台電要負擔碳費會減少你的意思是這樣嗎?台電的負擔的電費對你的意思是這樣嗎?基本上不會減太多不會減太多那到底是會減還是會增加還是不會減太多是減還是增?"},{"start":209.304,"end":235.463,"text":"應該還是會減少的。會減少?確定?你確定齁?好那我想問一下齁台電如果未來齁因為和能源配比的變化齁產生碳費不管是增加減少請問一下他是會轉嫁給消費者嗎?不會因為這個比例很低啦。比例很低?因為他不到5億啊。所以他不會因為這個理由要課增碳費之後就漲電價?不會齁?也不會造成也不會造成所謂的虧損嗎?不會?"},{"start":240.632,"end":257.342,"text":"因應虧損當然是因為發電成本增加它就會造成因應虧損嘛我們現在講的是成本的部分嘛會不會因為碳費這個成本增加了所以它把電費轉嫁提高然後轉嫁給消費者有沒有可能造成這個狀況不會因為它佔它的這個比例非常的低啦"},{"start":257.822,"end":259.684,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":275.382,"end":276.823,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":295.253,"end":316.992,"text":"要用什麼方式?這個是這個中研院的專業啦。他可能也是燃燒天然氣嘛,也是燃煤嘛。報告委員他是用那個LNG去...那他在維持這個高溫的過程當中有沒有可能會排出二氧化碳?當然會。也會嘛。所以實際上綠能不是說完全不會排二氧化碳啦,他也是會排二氧化碳。"},{"start":318.133,"end":335.727,"text":"所以你們在預...那個維持700到900其實就是二氧化碳就是會排嘛所以你們在預估所謂的會不會增加碳費或者是碳排你不能夠只算它純粹它發電你應該要把它整個過程通話算進去嘛不是說綠能就完全沒有碳排嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":336.067,"end":339.75,"text":"我只是舉這個例子就是說其實綠能它不是完全沒有碳排的因為大家一般會以為說只要是綠能就沒有碳排但其實不是"},{"start":361.506,"end":377.146,"text":"還是會有還是會有然後再跟你請教一下因為我們現在算那個碳費啊必須要外面減核嘛對不對要減核嘛那現在19萬企業裡面大概只有是15家有這個減核能力是不是減核來減核那個"},{"start":377.526,"end":383.029,"text":"那個是他的排放量要經過這個查驗證明嗎?只有15家。那我們這個人力應該是不夠啦。不夠啦。那夠!確定?15家就夠了?因為他檢核的過程當中查驗就要三個月的時間耶。"},{"start":395.216,"end":395.236,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":428.205,"end":429.871,"text":"謝謝葉元芝委員接下來請劉建國委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2004,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時11分）請環境部。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我想請教一下，根據環境部的資料，你們有一份資料裡面有550筆碳排量，我特別去看了一下，前10名有7名都是電力供應業，電力供應業大概占了總排量36.45%，這資料應該是正確的嘛？是你們提供的。"],["彭部長啓明：前10名是電力業嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，那個是……"],["彭部長啓明：那個是工廠，你說的是廠，不是公司。"],["葉委員元之：工廠，好。我想問一下，因為裡面很多是電力供應業。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：請問在電力供應業要繳碳費嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：要扣掉他給別人用的，他自身的或是輸配電的他自己要付。"],["葉委員元之：他要付嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：因為他也有產生二氧化碳，所以要付碳費。"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是他的比例不高，大概7、8%左右。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼？怎麼算？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們有一套算法，例如台電產生1億噸的排碳量左右，可是他自己大概只有不到1,000萬噸左右。"],["葉委員元之：那剩下的是誰付？"],["彭部長啓明：剩下是我們使用者。"],["葉委員元之：使用者來付？為什麼台電造成二氧化碳，卻是使用者來付？"],["彭部長啓明：就是使用者用了這個碳排。"],["葉委員元之：當然啊，一般工廠生產東西所製造出來的碳費也是由消費者買單嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們請署長解釋一下。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，當時在討論氣候變遷因應法的時候，有關碳費的徵收，對於電力的使用，當時立法院討論的時候就是由使用電力的一方，譬如這些工廠會用到電，所以碳費就由工廠端來負擔，而不是由電力發電端，不然如果兩邊都算的話，就會重複計算。但是如果像……"],["葉委員元之：可是如果一般的工廠生產東西，有排二氧化碳的話，是工廠付碳費，還是終端消費者付碳費？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是工廠，而且是……"],["彭部長啓明：工廠。"],["葉委員元之：工廠嘛，所以只有台電特別，台電是由消費者來付碳費，台電是……"],["賴署長瑩瑩：只有會被收到碳費的大工廠才會要負擔碳費。"],["葉委員元之：我知道。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：一般的中小企業、服務業、民生都不會被收到碳費。"],["葉委員元之：不是消費者付，是只要生產當中有排出二氧化碳，他就要付碳費，一般的工廠是這樣，沒錯吧？台電的話是由使用者來付碳費，他只要負擔一部分，剛剛詢答是這樣，沒錯吧？問題很簡單嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：不要講那麼複雜。我想問明年台電大概要繳多少碳費？"],["彭部長啓明：他們其實會很努力，目前我們估應該是5億以下。"],["葉委員元之：5億以下，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：5億以下，好，沒關係。因為明年就非核家園，核電退出，那二氧化碳會增加嗎？發電過程排放二氧化碳會增加嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我所掌握的數據，我們綠能比例是持續在往上走，所以排碳係數是逐步往下走當中。"],["葉委員元之：所以明年非核家園以後，因為綠能的增加，所以台電要負擔的碳費會減少，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：台電負擔的電費……"],["葉委員元之：你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上不會減太多，因為目前來講……"],["葉委員元之：不會減太多，那到底是會減，還是會增加？不會減太多是減還增？"],["彭部長啓明：應該還是會減少的，因為……"],["葉委員元之：會減少，確定？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：你確定喔？好，那我想問一下，台電如果未來因為能源配比的變化產生碳費，不管是增加、減少，請問一下它會轉嫁給消費者嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，因為這個比例很低。"],["葉委員元之：比例很低。"],["彭部長啓明：因為不到5億。"],["葉委員元之：所以它不會因為這個課徵碳費的理由而漲電價？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["葉委員元之：也不會造成所謂的虧損嗎？不會？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，虧損是自己營運的虧損。"],["葉委員元之：確定？確定喔？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：營運虧損當然是因為發電成本增加而造成營運的虧損，我們現在講的是成本的部分，會不會因為碳費的成本增加，所以把電費提高，轉嫁給消費者？有沒有可能造成這個狀況？不會？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，因為這個占它的比例非常的低。"],["葉委員元之：非常低，你確定喔？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：我這邊要指出另外一個問題，你剛剛講說因為還有綠能，所以可以cover到一些排碳的，因為綠能會cover到核電，所以不會增加碳排。可是你知道譬如說中研院現在在發展氫能，中研院不是跟台電合作，說他們用去碳燃氫發電。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["葉委員元之：這個東西也不會有二氧化碳。可是學者指出，你要去碳燃氫，要能夠甲烷熱分裂的話，是要在高溫700度到900度的狀況下，請問一下你要用什麼方式讓高溫維持在700度到900度？要用什麼方式？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是中研院的專業。"],["葉委員元之：它可能也是燃燒天然氣，也是燃媒嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，它是用LNG去做催化劑之後……"],["葉委員元之：那它在維持高溫的過程當中，有沒有可能會排出二氧化碳？"],["彭部長啓明：當然會。"],["葉委員元之：也會嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以實際上綠能不是完全不會排二氧化碳，它也是會排二氧化碳。"],["彭部長啓明：比較少。"],["葉委員元之：維持在700到900度的過程中，其實二氧化碳就是會排嘛，所以你們在預估所謂會不會增加碳費或者碳排，你不能只算它純粹發電，應該要把整個過程都算進去，不是說綠能就完全沒有碳排，沒錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：很低，相對的低很多。"],["葉委員元之：這個也都要算進去，因為剛剛感覺部長這一塊沒有精算過，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實整個去碳燃氫有它的算法邏輯，像目前我們看他們的計畫，到2028年只有5MW的發電量，所以相對比較少。"],["葉委員元之：我只是舉這個例子，就是說其實綠能不是完全沒有碳排的，大家一般會以為只要綠能就完全沒有碳排，但其實不是，還是會有。"],["彭部長啓明：幾乎是非常的低，非常的低。"],["葉委員元之：還是會有。再跟你請教一下，我們現在算碳費必須要外面檢核，對不對？現在19萬企業裡面，大概只有15家有檢核能力，是不是？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：那個是它的排放量要經過查驗機構的查驗。"],["葉委員元之：查驗證明嘛，只有15家，那我們的人力應該是不夠啦！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：夠，因為……"],["葉委員元之：不夠啦，那……"],["彭部長啓明：夠。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：夠。"],["葉委員元之：確定？15家就夠了？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：確定，因為這個制度已經實施很久。"],["葉委員元之：因為檢核的過程當中，查驗就要3個月的時間。"],["彭部長啓明：不會，報告委員，其實現在的人力150人左右，15家公司，我們有推算過每一個人的量能是多少，因為每一個查驗1個人大概2、3天左右，所以目前是夠。但是唯一一個情況是，如果社會恐慌，我每一個都要去做碳盤查、碳驗證，那就會不夠了，所以基本上現在要做的就是例如說金管會要求、我們要求還有供應鏈要求做就可以了，其他中小企業不需要做。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接下來請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai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可以,沒關係。 跟委員報告,那個空的罰款要看他整個過程,包括是不是有意無意等等那個,包括設備故障等等那個要再去判定。 再去判定對不對?"},{"start":133.248,"end":135.35,"text":"對對對。 所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到?"},{"start":136.192,"end":155.729,"text":"這個我現在不能講,還是要看整個環節。食物上的狀況對不對?部長我今天跟你討論這件事情原因就在這個地方。就是說我們現行空污防治法的規範基本上都是規範這個業者的程序作為。也就是說我們有沒有怎麼積極處理啊、積極配合啊、有沒有及早預防。但是我們整部法令裡面從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果。"},{"start":156.601,"end":156.621,"text":"來 這個 請 邰 醫師 來"},{"start":179.912,"end":196.52,"text":"我們還是要看最後的後果。還是要看最後的後果對不對?實務上在執行的時候當然就是桃園市環保局嘛。他當然第一時間重罰。對不對?這是不是就發生這種事情的標準作業流程?對。通常是環保局這是第一線啦。第一線對不對?第一線掌握我一定是第一時間重罰。然後重罰之後會發生什麼事部長你知道嗎?"},{"start":197.721,"end":221.436,"text":"其實他仔細的細節還是要看案件對不對所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願就是說我不服這個罰單我其實有配合阿我沒有違反相關法令可以撤銷有沒有可能有可能對不對跟我們報告一下那個我們剛剛他通報的時間超過一個小時超過一個小時對不對一定會罰一定會罰嘛好可是再來我就要問如果他超過一個小時比如說一個小時五分鐘那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度"},{"start":223.217,"end":229.751,"text":"他如果整天都沒通報你就可以罰最高罰2000萬對不對可是他如果很積極呢?超過一個小時就罰了你就會罰2000萬嗎?"},{"start":231.847,"end":253.881,"text":"不是嘛對不對今天拿這個題目來開頭其實本期是要點出空風防治法一個很大的一個問題啦就這個之前是倉促了大火嘛這美孚的案子雖然消防法通過了可是一樣啊當初美孚的工廠造成了公害然後持續了好幾個禮拜簡直是市民的災難當初桃園市環保局也是第一時間開罰500萬最高我給他罰下去後來發生什麼事"},{"start":256.703,"end":274.14,"text":"閱者講說我按照空戶防治法我沒有什麼相關的義務啊我前期有配合我也是不想要這樣啊我很擔心像這樣的事情他也講我有配合我有積極也許他沒有達到這個法律一個小時的標準但他都講啊你按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰空戶防治法本席認為你看之前美孚大火"},{"start":275.522,"end":294.921,"text":"這500萬的被撤銷最後只能廢清法罰6000這個跟人民的期待有巨大的落差這是本期要提的事其實在部長上任之前之前薛部長的時候我就有講空污防治法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範還是要從嚴處理啊對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果只要造成我不管你什麼原因其實你就要克與相關責任啊"},{"start":295.982,"end":322.571,"text":"有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合啊今天這個關於的這個廠商搞不好就是因為反正發生了我只要配合要件我還可以逃脫處罰所以他在前期的管理他就跟你賭嘛他很有可能就疏於應付我覺得這是一個法規上面的巨大的問題過去我們在討論空氣污染防治法的時候重點包含之前前朝的修正重點都放在移動污染源的管控可是固定污染源難道不是這個空污的大宗嗎"},{"start":323.482,"end":326.402,"text":"我是認為有一個全面檢討的必要部長"},{"start":328.566,"end":356.565,"text":"包括委員這個給我一點時間再重新了解一下因為委員提到的也非常有道理那目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理不過委員你說的這個意見非常好給我們一點時間我們再來評估一下是不是公務法有一些缺陷那部長你要多少時間因為薛部長之前也講要給他一點時間然後當然他任期快到了所以我也不怪他對不對但是你現在新上任嘛你除了碳的東西很專業之外其他這個是這個環境部的本"},{"start":357.405,"end":383.878,"text":"本來的守備範圍嘛。好,委員給我們一個月的時間好不好。我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。第一個就是空氣污染防治法要不要再重新針對固定污染源的部分啊做一些修正比如說倉儲的大火比如說這樣子一個公安的意外造成的公害事件有沒有一個專門的法則來做處理當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範是一個成本的增加但是有的時候就是要用這樣子才能夠"},{"start":384.258,"end":406.8,"text":"゚✧✧"},{"start":406.8,"end":406.96,"text":"謝謝牛許廷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1942,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時4分）謝謝主席，彭部長有請。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們等一下投影片。部長是桃園人嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：桃園住了很久，中央大學，觀音出生。"],["牛委員煦庭：觀音出生嘛，今天就從家鄉的悲劇開始說起。","環科的硝酸外洩案非常嚴重，相信部長身為觀音人看了一定很傷心，觀音在桃園乘載全國工業發展還有各式各樣最辛苦的產業，也是高污染桃園的重災區。這個硝酸外洩的意外，部長有沒有掌握相關的情況？"],["彭部長啓明：有，它7點多的時候發生，我們大概8點多一點，不到三十幾分鐘，我們化學署的團隊就已經去那邊監測了。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們是怎麼知道這件事情？是廠區通報的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：消防單位。"],["牛委員煦庭：消防單位通報。"],["彭部長啓明：我們有一個平台。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你知不知道如果發生這樣的事情，嚴重的空氣污染，嚴重的公害事件，我們可以依什麼樣的法規處以什麼樣的罰鍰？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是空污法，空污法對這種外洩，各種的下面都有一個處罰的比例，一小時內要通報。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，空污防制法第三十三條規定，如果業者沒有即時通報，執行協助救災這個義務的話，可以裁罰10萬到1,000萬元的罰款。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那這個案子他有沒有通報？"],["彭部長啓明：有通報。"],["牛委員煦庭：有通報，你們掌握是有通報？"],["彭部長啓明：空污的部分他有通報。"],["牛委員煦庭：那罰不罰得到？今天的問題就這個。"],["彭部長啓明：你要不要回答一下？請我們大氣司司長，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，空污的罰款要看他整個過程，包括有意無意、是不是設備故障等等，要再去判定。"],["牛委員煦庭：再去判定對不對，所以有沒有可能是最後罰不到？"],["張司長順欽：這我現在不能講，還是要看整個環節。"],["牛委員煦庭：實務上狀況對不對？"],["張司長順欽：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我現在跟你討論這件事情的原因就在這個地方，就是我們現行空污防制法的規範都是規範業者的程序作為，也就是有沒有積極處理、積極配合，有沒有及早預防，但是我們整部法令從來沒有針對他們這些行為造成的後果進行裁罰。所以很有可能這個案子，如果目前部裡面掌握的訊息他是有通報的，很有可能到最後他沒有違反空氣污染防制法第三十三條的規定，以至於橘色煙霧裡面是硝酸，然後造成大家恐慌也好，或是實際上身體損害，很有可能到最後他可以全身而退，有沒有可能發生這樣的事，部長？"],["彭部長啓明：這個請大氣司。"],["張司長順欽：我們還在看最後的後果。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是要看最後的後果，對不對？"],["張司長順欽：對，結果還是……"],["牛委員煦庭：實務上在執行是桃園市環保局，當然第一時間重罰，這是不是發生這種事情的標準作業流程？"],["彭部長啓明：是，我想環保局是第一線。"],["牛委員煦庭：第一線對不對，第一線掌握後一定是第一時間重罰，然後重罰之後會發生什麼事，部長你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：細節還是要看當時。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是要看案件，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以業者有沒有機會依法訴願？就是說我不服這個罰單，我其實有配合啊！我沒有違反相關法令，可以撤銷，有沒有可能？有可能對不對？"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告一下，我們剛剛查，他通報時間超過1個小時。"],["牛委員煦庭：超過1個小時。"],["張司長順欽：一定會罰。"],["牛委員煦庭：一定會嘛，好。可是再來我就要問。如果他超過一點點，比如1個小時5分鐘，那你是不是要依比例原則來權衡裁罰的額度？他如果整天都沒通報，你就可以罰最高，罰2,000萬，對不對？可是如果他很積極呢？"],["彭部長啓明：超過1個小時就罰。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得會罰2,000萬嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不是。"],["牛委員煦庭：不是嘛，對不對？"],["張司長順欽：這是有好幾個因子算在一起。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天拿這個題目來開頭，本席是要點出空污防制法很大的一個問題。這之前是倉儲大火，美福的案子，雖然消防法通過了，可是一樣啊，當初美福工廠造成的公害持續了好幾個禮拜，簡直是市民的災難。當初桃園市政府也是第一時間開罰500萬，最高額給他罰下去，後來發生什麼事？業者講說「我按照空污防制法，我沒有什麼相關的義務，我前期有配合，我也不想要這樣」。我很擔心像這樣的事情再度發生，他也講我有配合、我很積極，也許他沒有達到法律1個小時的標準，但是他都講了，按照比例原則你沒有辦法重罰。關於空污防制法，你看之前美福大火，500萬被撤銷，最後只能依廢清法罰6,000元，這跟人民的期待有巨大的落差，這是本席要提的事。","其實在部長上任之前，之前薛部長的時候我就有講，空污防制法是不是只能針對程序性的東西予以規範？還是要從嚴處理？對於這些固定污染源造成公害的後果，只要造成，我不管你什麼原因，就要課予相關責任。有的時候重罰是為了讓他前期去配合，今天這個觀音的廠商搞不好就是因為，反正發生了我只要配合要件還可以逃脫處罰，所以他在前期的管理就跟你賭，他很有可能就疏於應付，我覺得這是法規上面巨大的問題。過去我們在討論空氣污染防制法的時候，包含前朝的修正，重點都放在移動污染源的管控，可是固定污染源難道不是空污的大宗嗎？我是認為有全面檢討的必要。部長？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，給我一點時間再重新了解一下，因為委員提到的也非常有道理，目前我們是有不一樣的環節去做一些處理，不過委員你說的意見非常好，給我們一點時間，我們再來評估一下是不是空污法有些缺陷。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你要多少時間？因為薛部長也講說要給他一點時間，當然他任期快到了，所以我也不怪他，但是你現在新上任，你除了碳的東西很專業之外，其他是環境部本來的守備範圍嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員給我們1個月的時間，好不好？我們再評估一下空污法是不是可以適應這些問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：第一個就是空氣污染防制法要不要再重新針對固定污染源部分做一些修正，譬如說倉儲的大火，譬如說這樣的一個公安意外造成的公害事件，有沒有一個專門的罰則來做處理？當然你可以講這個東西對業者來講是一個規範，是一個成本的增加，但有時候就是要這樣子才能維護我們的空氣或是水的安全，對不對？自律不成只好他律，過去我們在設定法律的時候都說，他們只要自律、只要好好的做，我們都相信他是好人，結論就是發生一大堆這樣的事，我不希望桃園再發生這樣的事，不管是倉儲也好、工廠也好，都不應該再發生公害，所以我認為空污防制法有檢討的必要，我們現在1個月的時間。"],["彭部長啓明：OK，好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部裡面做一下想法、做一下研討，開公聽會都很好，我們這邊也會做研討，我們可以長期來做討論，部長，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝委員指教，我們會來進行。"],["牛委員煦庭：麻煩你，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭"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29屆的這個氣候部高峰會議現在正在開啟。那當然我們國內沒有辦法受邀參加,但是我們也有所謂的總統的國家氣候變遷對策委員會。你也是委員之一嗎?我是執行秘書。執行秘書,好。今天有個社論標題嚇得很重。"},{"start":36.899,"end":53.896,"text":"總統府氣候大敗敗再開下去有什麼意義不知道部長有沒有看到這個社論有看到其中他講到兩個部分就是說開了兩次會議第一次的結論根本也不能算是結論第二次比較重要第二次講是說什麼第二次講說"},{"start":55.077,"end":77.239,"text":"要兩個一個是明年一月的時候要提出我國的2032年的減碳目標另外第二個是政府要帶頭減碳我先姑且不論說政府帶頭減碳是過去十幾二十年來大家已經共同共識嘛節能減碳這大家耳熟能詳了那第一個2032年的減碳目標我上一次也在這個委員會請教過你"},{"start":78.78,"end":107.909,"text":"第一,2025年你們要減碳10%,你承諾,你已經親口證實了說會跳票,做不到。第二,2030減碳25%,正負1%,不知道。但2030還沒到,馬上又要再提出一個2032。所以現在是一直往後推就對了。報告委員不是的,因為我們準備,因為這次COVID-19,要聽到NDC3.0,就是說第三份,所以等於是要拉到2035。那2035在官方中央一定有2032的。"},{"start":108.789,"end":110.751,"text":"所以你這一次的這個氣候變遷會議其實主要是因為我們這個COVID-29是不是?"},{"start":126.114,"end":152.312,"text":"不是就是說其實大家都知道COVID-19這個時候要訂出到2035我們整個都順著國際公約在做所以我們正在準備這個過程當中好那我們拉回來如果說要講COVID-19我們就來討論因為我也注意到說我們環境部有所謂的這個戰情中心是兩個部分大家也都講是說其實內行看門道外行看熱鬧那門道的部分就在於是說在這一次的會議"},{"start":153.564,"end":180.339,"text":"到底已開發國家願意拿出多少錢給開發中國家來去做共同檢探的一個目標錢才是重點嘛沒錢沒有辦法做嘛第二是他們提出來的2035年的一個檢探計畫檢探目標到底是不是能夠具體的落實因為檢探路徑大家去看就可以看出來是說玩真的玩假的那還有一個很重要是在國際原子能總署他們在開幕的那一天也強調"},{"start":182.298,"end":204.41,"text":"告28的時候有提出核能的運用要2050的時候要提高三倍2020的三倍以上就是說這個目標是不變的為什麼他認為是能源不管是燃氣燃煤都是大宗的排碳能源都是排碳等於減碳的這個罪狂很難對抗的敵人"},{"start":204.91,"end":217.887,"text":"也因此希望是用核能或者是說其他的再生能源來取代火力發電所以去年COVID-28的時候就已經有提出2050三倍的核能發電目標不變"},{"start":221.091,"end":248.267,"text":"那現在我先把它講完啦。您不用著急。川普總統上任。大家之前也都在談啦。就是說他有沒有可能也退出巴黎協定。這是第一個。或者是說他有沒有可能他支持石油跟燃氣發電。但不要忘記喔。川普總統即便是他選舉期間講說他支持石油跟燃氣的發電以及開採。但是他也同樣支持核能。"},{"start":249.227,"end":255.245,"text":"他也支持核能而且他也認為說核能應該要重啟阿對美國很多地方來講所以"},{"start":256.28,"end":282.036,"text":"拉回來我的問題其實還是很簡單啊老問題啊我們台灣有什麼本錢跟有什麼條件能夠跟世界趨勢背道而馳當世界看到減碳目標定在那邊當世界看到能源的運用燃煤燃氣都是排碳的大宗的時候結果台灣背道而馳的是我們把核電廠關掉然後結果我們現在剛剛此時此刻我查台電的官網"},{"start":282.916,"end":303.892,"text":"超過84%、85%火力全開發電那您覺得如果說以這樣的一個情況不改變世界都在重新重啓核能世界都在重新用核能甚至說2050要達到三倍的核能發電然後結果我們反而是背道而馳"},{"start":305.42,"end":320.549,"text":"來部長。 包委員國際能源總署原子能總署他是提倡核能的我們一般會看IEA國際能源總署就跟我們國際的燃煤聯盟他當然希望全世界都要燃煤發電最有效我請教COP28的結論沒有核能的決議"},{"start":321.269,"end":348.121,"text":"二零五零提高二零三零的三倍沒有沒有這個決議那個是場外他們幾個國家但包括說美國包括說其實主要幾個加入國家也都有這樣的一個倡議報告委員那個沒有列入COVID-28的主決議那有沒有這樣的倡議有沒有這樣的一個討論有沒有這樣的一個方向某些國家的倡議是某些國家的倡議包括美國包括主要國家是那另外我剛講了嘛"},{"start":349.221,"end":375.302,"text":"就是說不只部長我現在不是要跟你爭執我沒有爭執我現在講的是客觀的事實就是說當世界各國即便是日本即便是日本發生了311事件但日本有沒有完全拋棄核能沒有啊日本他現在還是有重啓核能的計畫美國微軟Google他們有沒有在重啓核能有啊"},{"start":376.735,"end":403.005,"text":"那我不懂說你現在一直跟我爭執說這個不是決議這個只是倡議這個只是什麼但重點是當全世界大家都往這方向走我現在本期還再次強調我一直我也沒有說我一定要支持哪一個能源不可但現在我們全體人類面對的目標是什麼是2050要建林碳排是你2032年你們自己要提出來的減碳目標是你2030年你們自己講的減碳25%正負1你達不達到"},{"start":406.229,"end":421.86,"text":"所以其實大家是幫你想方設法你既然已經講出了一個減碳25%正負1的話那你要怎麼做我們大家在關心我們大家在害怕那其中最大宗的排碳大宗火力每天都全開那你跟我講是說時間到了2030就是減碳25%誰相信"},{"start":427.386,"end":442,"text":"當川普也都在擁抱核能當美國當COVID-19這一些國家大家都在擁抱他們也不一定都覺得說核能好啊但是核能要幹嘛核能取代不是取代再生能源核能取代是火力發電"},{"start":443.362,"end":470.414,"text":"是用核能取代用不排碳的發電方式去取代排碳的能源方式我們持續的推動再生能源的技術當哪一天再生能源技術真的我們人類有辦法把太陽能轉換成電能把太陽能把風力轉換100%電能的時候我們當然可以捨棄其他我們不要的能源發電啊但在這個過程當中過渡過程當中我們要很務實啊不是嗎那你身為環境部"},{"start":472.179,"end":484.383,"text":"我現在提出來你不是經濟部啊你不是台電主管啊你是環境部現在國內最大的排碳大宗就是發電站其中之一不是嗎結果我們開了兩次的這個會議國家氣候變遷委員會"},{"start":489.765,"end":501.075,"text":"難怪社會講大敗敗啊因為你沒有針對問題解決問題啊一直要求大家去節能減碳啊我想請教哪一個人不知道要隨手關燈隨手關店但如果說我們需要讓一個總統找環境部部長當執行秘書那麼國家級的大敗敗"},{"start":508.241,"end":524.401,"text":"結果到時候得出的結論不是我們要怎麼樣解決問題怎麼樣提出問題而是我們只告訴大家是說大家共挺時間一下吧那個結論不是這個樣子那個深度節能有很深的意義在裡面不是叫大家只有節能而已部長"},{"start":525.546,"end":529.928,"text":"你不要一直看著昭偉啦。你好像希望昭偉說時間到了,昭偉怎麼還不站起來?"},{"start":529.928,"end":531.189,"text":"是不是?"},{"start":531.189,"end":539.913,"text":"是,我知道,昭偉感謝啊。感謝你多讓我講這幾分鐘,因為我看部長好像眼神一直跟你求救,想說,欸,洪孟凱怎麼講?"},{"start":539.913,"end":551.559,"text":"還不站起來。部長,我說實在我不喜歡一直重複講這些事情。但是我覺得,如果說我們環境部主管國家的環境的組織單位,"},{"start":555.06,"end":555.781,"text":"但是就是每一個內容都沒有針對問題解決問題嗎?"},{"start":585.691,"end":585.711,"text":"好謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1857,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時44分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，COP29──第29屆氣候高峰會議現在正在開啟，當然，我們沒辦法受邀參加，但是我們也有總統級的國家氣候變遷對策委員會，你也是委員之一嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：我是執行秘書。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天有個社論標題下得很重──「總統府氣候大拜拜，再開下去有什麼意義？」不知道部長有沒有看到這個社論？"],["彭部長啓明：有看到。"],["洪委員孟楷：其中說到兩個部分，就是開了兩次會議，第一次的結論根本不能算是結論，第二次比較重要，第二次是說什麼？有兩個結論，一個是明年1月要提出我國的2032年減碳目標，第二個是政府要帶頭減碳。本席先姑且不論政府帶頭減碳是過去十幾、二十年來的共同共識，大家對節能減碳都耳熟能詳了。","關於2032年的減碳目標，本席上一次也在這個委員會請教過您，第一，2025年你們要減碳10%，你已經親口證實會跳票，做不到！第二，2030年減碳25%的正負一，我們還不知道狀況。但是2030年還沒到，馬上又要再提出2032年的目標，所以現在時間是一直往後推嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不是的。因為這次COP29要進到NDC3.0，所以等於是要拉到2035年，要到2035年這一關，一定包含2032年。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，到2035年，沒有錯，COP29就是所有先進國家或是主要參與國家都提出2035年的減碳目標嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是，我們也在往這個方向做。"],["洪委員孟楷：OK。所以這次的氣候變遷會議其實主要是因為COP29，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：不是。其實大家都知道COP29要訂出到2035年的目標，其實我們都是順著國際公約在做，所以我們正在準備的過程當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。我們拉回來，如果要說COP29，我們就來討論這個部分，因為本席也注意到環境部有所謂的戰情中心。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：有兩個部分，大家也都說了，其實就是內行看門道，外行看熱鬧，門道就是在這一次的會議中，到底已開發國家願意拿出多少錢給開發中國家做共同減碳的目標？錢才是重點嘛！沒錢沒有辦法做嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二，他們提出來的2035年減碳計畫、減碳目標，到底能不能具體落實？大家去看減碳路徑就可以看出來是玩真的，還是玩假的。還有一個很重要的，國際原子能總署開幕那天也強調，COP28的時候有提出核能運用在2050年的時候要提高3倍，就是2020年的3倍以上，這個目標是不變的，為什麼？他們認為能源，不管是燃氣、燃煤都是排碳大宗，等於是減碳時很難對抗的敵人，因此希望用核能或者其他再生能源取代火力發電。所以去年COP28的時候就已經提出，2050年3倍的核能發電目標不變。現在……"],["彭部長啓明：那個……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席先說完啦！您不用著急。川普總統上任，大家之前都在談他有沒有可能也退出巴黎協定，這是第一個，或者他有沒有可能支持石油和燃氣發電？但不要忘記，川普總統即便是在選舉期間說支持石油和燃氣發電以及開採，但是他也同樣支持核能，而且他也認為核能應該要重啟，對美國很多地方來說。","所以拉回來，其實本席的問題很簡單，這也是老問題，臺灣有什麼本錢和條件能夠和世界趨勢背道而馳？當世界看到減碳目標訂在那裡，當世界對於能源的運用，認為燃煤、燃氣都是排碳大宗的時候，結果臺灣背道而馳把核電廠關掉。剛剛本席查了台電的官網，超過84%、85%的火力全開發電，如果這樣的情況不改變，就是世界都在重新重啟核能，世界都在重新用核能，甚至是2050年要達到3倍的核能發電，結果我們反而背道而馳，請部長說明。"],["彭部長啓明：國際原子能總署是提倡核能的，所以我們一般會看IEA國際能源總署的主張，這就和國際燃煤聯盟當然希望全世界都使用燃煤發電一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是本席要請教，COP28的結論是2050年提高至2020年發電量的3倍。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有這個決議，那是場外幾個國家的倡議。"],["洪委員孟楷：但包括美國、包括主要幾個加入的國家也都有這樣一個倡議。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個沒有列入COP28的主決議，那個只是一個倡議。"],["洪委員孟楷：那有沒有這樣的倡議？有沒有這樣的一個討論？有沒有這樣的一個方向？"],["彭部長啓明：某些國家的倡議。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，某些國家的倡議，包括美國、包括主要國家。"],["彭部長啓明：只有幾個國家而已。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，另外我剛剛講了，部長，我現在不是要跟你爭執……"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有爭執，我在陳述事實啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在講的是客觀的事實，就是當世界各國，即便是日本發生了311事件，但日本有沒有完全拋棄核能？沒有啊！日本現在還是有重啟核能的計畫，美國、微軟、Google他們有沒有再重啟核能？有啊！那我不懂你現在一直跟我爭執說這個不是決議、這個只是倡議、這個只是什麼，但重點是當全世界大家都往這個方向走。本席再一次強調，我也沒有說我一定要支持哪一個能源不可，但現在我們全體人類面對的目標是什麼？是2050要淨零碳排，2032年是你們自己提出來的減碳目標，2030年是你們自己講的減碳25%正負1，你達不達得到？所以其實大家是幫你想方設法，你既然已經講出了減碳25%正負1的話，那你要怎麼做？我們大家在關心、我們大家在害怕，其中排碳的大宗──火力每天都全開，那你跟我講時間到了2030就是減碳25%，誰相信？當川普也在擁抱核能，當美國、當COP29這一些國家大家都在擁抱，他們也不一定都覺得核能好啊，但是核能要幹嘛？核能取代不是取代再生能源，核能取代的是火力發電，是用核能取代、用不排碳的能源發電方式去取代排碳的能源方式，我們持續推動再生能源的技術，當哪一天再生能源技術我們人類真的有辦法把太陽能轉換成電能，把太陽能、把風力轉換100%電能的時候，我們當然可以捨棄其他我們不要的能源發電啊！但在這個過渡的過程當中我們要很務實，不是嗎？你身為環境部，我現在提出來，你不是經濟部，你不是台電主管，你是環境部，現在國內最大的排碳大宗就是發電占其中之一不是嗎？結果我們開了兩次的國家氣候變遷委員會會議，難怪社論講那是大拜拜，因為你沒有針對問題解決問題啊……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個社論沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：你只是要求大家去節能減碳啊，我想請教，哪一個人不知道要隨手關燈、隨手關電？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是深度節能，不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：但如果我們需要讓一個總統找環境部部長當執行秘書，那麼國家級的大拜拜結果到最後得出的結論不是我們要怎麼樣解決問題、怎麼樣提出問題，而是只告訴大家說：大家共體時艱一下吧！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個結論不是這個樣子，那個深度節能有很深的意義在裡面，不是叫大家只有節能而已。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你不要一直看著召委啦，你好像希望召委說時間到了、召委怎麼還不站起來？"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有、我沒有，我是看著你。"],["主席：確實是時間超過3分鐘了。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，感謝召委，感謝你多讓我講這幾分鐘，因為我看部長好像眼神一直跟你求救說：欸！洪孟楷怎麼還在講，你還不站起來？","部長，說實在我不喜歡一直重複講這些事情，但是我覺得如果我們環境部主管國家環境的主責單位都沒有辦法把真正客觀的事實告訴我們的上位，然後一味的讓這種民粹拉著走，那我真的覺得就印證了這樣的總統府氣候大拜拜到底有什麼用？開了兩次會議，但是真正的核心問題不解決、不面對，到底有什麼用？謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：其實內容非常的多啦，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是就是每一個內容都沒有針對問題、解決問題嘛！"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在場。","接下來請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 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有請金管會主委好 請彭主委主委好 請教主委一下我們現在目前台灣有多少虛擬貨幣投資到國外的交易所"},{"start":25.609,"end":40.634,"text":"我們沒有官方的統計但是呢很多的有些的估計應該這個人數是非常的多人數非常多你沒有統計對因為我們這個部分其實官方沒有因為我們沒有納管沒有這方面的資料"},{"start":41.681,"end":60.844,"text":"我真是那個雜誌幫你們統計啦所以我們台灣有八成台灣人就是一千八百多萬人投資國外的虛擬貨幣所以說請問我們都不知道這樣子的話你怎麼樣幫人民把關"},{"start":61.805,"end":78.683,"text":"當然報告委員其實我們對虛擬資產原來這個管理我們是依循全球管理這個虛擬資產的這個邏輯第一個先從反洗錢開始做起但是全球有多少虛擬貨幣的交易所你知道嗎"},{"start":79.635,"end":95.924,"text":"這我詳細的輸出不清楚,但是...你都不清楚?那你是主委呢,你什麼都不清楚都不知道,這樣子你來這是要問誰啊?你要幫人民保管他們的錢啊,但是你說你問這個也不知道,問那個也不知道?"},{"start":97.386,"end":107.848,"text":"報告委員有關那個虛擬資產的管理齁其實上在過去呢一直其實我們按照階段其實我們比如在台灣的話它只有落地我們才會知道對齁所以等於說落地呢落地我們現在目前齁目前我們完成就是洗錢防治法遵聲明的虛擬貨幣產業齁在我們你說有管理的嘛齁有多少家我們現在總共有26家會員公司"},{"start":125.239,"end":148.67,"text":"二十六家二十六家但是你知道我們全球共有幾家嗎這個其實這個數字我想說現在全球共有千家啦幾千家啦所以你是只有就是二十六家所以這二十六家你覺得是為什麼你要來是說你要管理只有二十六家"},{"start":149.61,"end":177.805,"text":"這個是因為主要是我們一個制度我們在一個我們的法治轄區裡面他一定要來你們怎麼選擇的是怎麼的制度不要跟我說又不知道不會不會委員我想這個有不同的情況我可以跟委員報告因為我們開始呢做反洗錢的時候他要在台灣落地他必須先跟我們做反洗錢的聲明的登記所以這些人要經過我們的納管以後總共26家現在符合這個規定所以我們要求他們已經成立一個"},{"start":179.046,"end":185.01,"text":"所以其他家都不想進來還是說因為他不符合?沒有,很多在申請當中,其實我們,也可以跟我們報告一下我們11月30號我們會公布一個新的執法這部分他們開始要做登記制那沒有登記在台灣營業的話是會有刑責的"},{"start":197.509,"end":198.55,"text":"其實不見得是這個意思就是他願意接受中華民國的法律來管轄"},{"start":226.064,"end":227.305,"text":"你知道我們台灣的世紀排名全球排名有哪一些嗎?"},{"start":250.698,"end":268.571,"text":"我們台灣就是世紀最好在我們台灣就像我們台灣就是有什麼第一名還有第二名像說遺跡台灣全球是第一名像是現在呢我們儘管會創造我們全球第十名就是FTSG的倒閉事件中是我們台灣全球"},{"start":279.58,"end":288.73,"text":"第七名全球七大災害就是在我們台灣所以我的意思說你要把關只有26家但是在我們台灣有很多幾千家但是我們要如何去協助才能列入"},{"start":299.042,"end":319.5,"text":"但是我也特別提醒也呼籲國人我們11月30號開始假設我們公告以後任何人除了這26家以外任何人在台灣如果你沒有經過中華民國政府的登記許可的話你做這個就有刑責我想這就是我們納管它的一個很重要的一個比方我們就是日本就是有納管"},{"start":320.24,"end":331.186,"text":"所以呢當大家發現這個公司倒閉的時候所以我們日本就把他們留在日本所以就找回來但是我們台灣就是沒有納管我們超過600億我就是我們的人民去投資就拿不回來所以我希望我們金管會除了納管以外要把關要如何把關這些讓我們的民眾知道"},{"start":347.375,"end":349.156,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":365.689,"end":384.566,"text":"我們有一定的步驟現在就這個部分我剛跟委員報告過其實我們明年6月30號就會把我們的有關虛擬資產管理的專法會送進行政院我想這次也是一個非常對我們要有專法就是要有措施有機制法定了沒有機制又沒有知道怎麼做的話訂法是等於沒有啦所以我們希望的"},{"start":391.212,"end":394.235,"text":"我們正在努力中,謝謝,謝謝貿易政委員,接著我們請葉延之委員諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1542,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時40分）主席好，有請金管會主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。請教主委，臺灣目前有多少虛擬貨幣，投資到國外的交易所？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們沒有官方的統計，但是很多非官方的估計，人數應該是非常的多。"],["麥委員玉珍：人數非常多，你沒有統計？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為這個部分其實官方沒有納管，沒有這方面的資料。"],["麥委員玉珍：甚至是雜誌幫你們統計，有八成的臺灣人，就是一千八百多萬人投資國外的虛擬貨幣，請問我們都不知道的話，怎麼幫人民把關？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實我們對虛擬資產原來的管理，是依循全球管理虛擬資產的邏輯。第一個先從反洗錢開始做起……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是全球有多少虛擬貨幣的交易所，你知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：詳細的數字我不清楚，但是……"],["麥委員玉珍：你都不清楚！你是主委，你什麼都不清楚、不知道，這樣是要問誰啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們是要幫人民把關他們的錢，但是你問這個也不知道，問那個也不知道！"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，有關虛擬資產的管理，實際上在過去一直有按照階段，比如在臺灣的話，它只有落地我們才會知道……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以等於說落地呢？目前我們完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明的虛擬貨幣產業，你說有管理的有多少家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在總共有26家會員公司。"],["麥委員玉珍：26家，但是你知道全球共有幾家嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這個數字我想說……"],["麥委員玉珍：現在全球共有幾千家，而你只有26家，你覺得為什麼你只有管理26家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，這主要是我們的制度，在我們法制的轄區裡面，他一定要來登記。"],["麥委員玉珍：你們是怎麼選擇的？是什麼制度？不要又跟我說不知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會，委員我想有不同的情況，我可以跟委員報告。因為我們開始做反洗錢的時候，他要在臺灣落地，必須先跟我們做反洗錢聲明的登記，經過我們納管，現在總共有26家符合這個規定。所以我們已經要求他們成立一個公會……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以其他家都不想進來，還是因為他不符合？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，很多在申請當中。也跟委員報告，11月30日我們會公布一個新的子法，這部分他們開始要做登記制，沒有登記在臺灣營業的話，是會有刑責的。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但是我們登記要如何去把關？不登記的話我們要如何讓我們的人民去投資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個就是委員關心的點。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以這個你沒有把關，你說把關最優勢的，我要請教主委，你把關的就是26家，這26家是你覺得最好、最優勢的，排名10名嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實不見得是這個意思，就是他願意接受中華民國的法律管轄，再來如果說……"],["麥委員玉珍：就我所知所有的虛擬貨幣交易所都想要進來，但是要如何讓他們進來，你才能為我們人民把關嘛！對不對？但是我現在看到……你知道我們臺灣的全球排名有哪一些嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：什麼排名？不好意思。"],["麥委員玉珍：就像我們臺灣有什麼第一名，還有第二名，譬如遺跡臺灣是全球第一名。像現在我們金管會創造了全球前十名，就是FTX的倒閉事件，我們臺灣是全球第七名，全球第七大受災戶。所以我的意思是，你只有把關26家……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我其實不是這個意思……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是在臺灣有很多，就是幾千家……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們積極在立法，希望可以透過法律……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們要如何去協助，才能列入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我也特別提醒呼籲國人，11月30日開始，假設我們公告以後，除了這26家，任何人在臺灣，如果沒有經過中華民國政府登記許可的話，你做這個就有刑責。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是日本就是有納管，所以當大家發現這個公司倒閉的時候，日本政府就把他們留在日本，就能找回來。但是我們臺灣就是沒有納管，我們超過600億，人民去投資後就拿不回來，所以我希望金管會除了納管以外還要把關……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們正在做這件事，謝謝委員的關心。"],["麥委員玉珍：讓我們民眾知道哪一個是真的，哪一個怎麼樣，才能保障大家的投資。八成欸！八成的投資在外面，這樣子的話真的是……金管會不要回我們說不知道，這樣的話我們投資人很傷心啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們有一定的步驟，這個部分我剛剛跟委員報告過，其實我們明年6月30日就會把有關虛擬資產管理的專法送進行政院，我想這也是一個非常劃世代的……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，我們要有專法，就是要有措施、有機制。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有錯，我們朝這個方向在努力中。"],["麥委員玉珍：法定了，沒有機制，又不知道怎麼做的話，定法也是等於沒有啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我們正在努力中。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們希望要知道怎麼去協助處理，才是真的，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員關心，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員，接著我們請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.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謝謝提給您好 謝謝好接著請麥義正委員執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1481,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時31分）謝謝主席，首先邀請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不早了，午安。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，午安。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：辛苦你了。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總裁，大家都非常關心川普當選後，強勢的美元會再現。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是似乎整個國際瞬息萬變。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：雖然大家這麼看，但是我個人認為也不盡然會如此，因為波動會很大。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果以波動大來註解應該會呈現，但是到底會強勢不強勢，我個人認為還有待觀察。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員說的沒有錯，我也同感，目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有同感？今天真的是很開心，能夠跟楊總裁有相同的「同感」，所以我們就實際來討論……"],["楊總裁金龍：不確定性很高。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以新臺幣到目前為止連兩天在變，但是我們這一週也在測試32.5元的卡關保衛戰。近期這個熱錢如海嘯般瘋狂的匯出，我們又是海島型國家，一個出口型的國家，一旦匯率過度的波動，對臺灣經濟整個金融的穩定度是非常大的挑戰。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員說的沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以總裁，在你的專業領域裡，你要怎麼具體去維護好我們的外匯市場秩序，避免整個市場過度的貶值？請說明。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我們第12頁這邊你會看到，事實上到目前為止，我們新臺幣貶值的幅度比其他貨幣來講都比較小，這是第一點。第二點，在第18頁我們也秀出來，事實上我們新臺幣波動度是很穩定的，跟新加坡幣差不多。所以委員說的沒有錯，挑戰是在未來，但是到目前為止中央銀行的調節，我總覺得我們還是有足夠的能力來維持新臺幣匯率的穩定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：總裁現在說的是目前為止，我們還是有這個量能能夠控制好？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我剛剛一開頭跟你有一個共識，就是大家認為強勢的美元再現，但是我們認為也不盡然是如此，因為它的波動到底要怎麼波動，讓我們有一點緊張。所以我還是勉勵，我們必須要謹慎去看待，到底它的波動是強勢美元，還是弱勢美元，這是大家一直在思考的，因為這有嚴重的影響，面向很大。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員的提醒和高見非常佩服。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛討論到，民國74年所簽訂的廣場協議，當時造就的程度是不是會再現，你認為呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一剛剛委員在講非常的不確定性，前面的委員也有講到1985年的廣場協議，是不是會有廣場協議的2.0，這個要密切的注意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就應對了總裁你說的，必須要好好密切的觀察，這一點我勉勵，因為這個影響太大了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝總裁，接下來我請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長，時間暫停。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們來實質討論你的超收問題。11月12日你公布了賦稅收入的統計，今年10月份已經達到3兆2,951億元，年增是2,728億元，增幅9%，達成了全年度的預算，應該是101.9%，超出的部分大概是615億元。今年超出的總金額大概是4,000億左右，在這樣的情況下，可說是創下了歷史第三高，甚至有可能還在增加，會挑戰新高。稅收超徵代表我們稅收狀態比預期的好，這是簡單的邏輯，但是年年超徵表示政府在收支判斷上這樣的誤判，是失職或失能。你們也在113年成立了專家小組會議，聘請了很多的專業人士，如今看來，部長的承諾應該是跳票了，你的看法和說法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於稅收的估測我們當然需要精進，因此我們成立了一個估測小組，過往是財政部自己估，現在我們有邀請國發會、央行，還有專家學者一起來，就各個稅目去檢討，然後做一個估測。但首先有時間差的因素，在估測的時候，大概都是上半年的，事實上完成稅收已經是第二年的年底了，第一個是時間差。第二是有一些不可預測的因素，比如說像證交稅是最難估測的，像今年113年的股市，我們是以日成交量的均量3,500億來估算。我們去年在編113年證交稅的時候，許多委員都認為我們估的太高，但是今年的日均量是超過5,000億的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，如果您如此的回答，你認為……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個部分是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，停止你的回答，因為我們要討論的是你專業的小組，如果你把這個責任推向有委員說你們編得太低，今年又是意外的能夠這麼高，日均量多少，那這個小組要做什麼呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，小組……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你說了，你保證今年可以大幅改善稅收超徵的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你剛才所說的這兩項原因，都不是在你的專業領域裡的原因啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一定是在做相關的一些精進，但是也有一些不可預測的因素在裡面。我想跟委員說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席還是具體建議你，你的專業領域小組還要再滾動式的檢討。目前為止我們的舉債還是非常高，因為我們的特別預算還是很多，而你還錢都是還那個最少的，換句話說，製造了幸福泡泡的感覺出來。所以本席具體建議，你的小組還要再滾動式檢討，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：小組當然是，還有我們要建置相關估測的模型，我們希望能夠透過一些科技的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，部長你講到重點了，相關的因子條件，你們必須要去討論。"],["莊部長翠雲：這也是我們要再精進的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，給我一分鐘好嗎？"],["主席：不行，你已經超過時間太多了，這樣我對後面的委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，你的AI繪圖人氣王的比賽，現在暫緩不公布，這是什麼原因呢？你的雲端種樹的集點樹，現在在司法調查。你應該是要更精進方案，怎麼會導致AI繪圖人氣王的比賽要暫緩公布，你在怕什麼呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有怕什麼，我想這個是……"],["主席：部長，是不是你會後提供資料給楊瓊瓔委員？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會公布。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候要公布？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為在司法調查當中，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，本席提出，就是一個政府應該是公開透明，你把你的精進方案給本席好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間提供給本席？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想我們一個禮拜以內就提給您。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好！謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：接著請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156943","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156943","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b3cbead6006ae4d01f5866fb8dd1f93153993c1c201d063e6bb206ea06e1c8f725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"12:31:39 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謝謝"},{"start":321.966,"end":344.845,"text":"那你的進度呢?就是說這三項可能還沒達到...這三項的共識現在的確還在尋求...你有沒有一個期程?我想要的是一個期程,你說你預計什麼時候...我們兩週內給委員報告,謝謝那希望這個署長你盡快給本席這邊你們的一個相關進度的報告因為我想這個學校的營養午餐涉及到全國這麼多學童他們的這個食安的問題"},{"start":347.807,"end":358.602,"text":"那我希望透過一個更嚴謹的立法我們可以確保也讓家長安心他的孩子在學校裡面所吃到的營養午餐都是安全的沒有疑慮的好不好好那我們一起來努力謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（12時31分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長，辛苦了！"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你在師專畢業之後第一所任教的國小是不是嘉義縣竹崎的光華國小？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["王委員育敏：10月8號你還回娘家嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["王委員育敏：本席認為你對於城鄉差距的議題應該很有感。"],["鄭部長英耀：當然。"],["王委員育敏：你當時到光華國小，我看報導你要走路走兩個多小時才會到你任教的學校。"],["鄭部長英耀：在那個年代，走大馬路要4小時。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席今天就要就教你有關於縮短城鄉差距的問題，特別是像嘉義縣這樣的地方，因為你在那邊任教過，所以我想你感受非常的深刻。前陣子嘉義中埔發生大地震，結果就有14所學校出現了震災的災損，但是我們看到，像嘉義縣政府的教育發展基金，它今年編列關於老舊校舍及耐震能力補強的經費，整個加起來也才不過600萬，尤其耐震補強根本是零，沒有錢啊！因為嘉義縣財政很困難，它的分級是第五級。我認為縮短城鄉差距是非常重要的一件事情，但在你的未來施政重點當中，這並沒有列為最大的重點項目。針對這個部分，我要問部長的是，你要怎麼樣弭平一些經費比較貧弱的縣市，但是相對它的設備又比較老舊，怎麼樣透過你的專案可以達到縮短城鄉差距？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，針對偏鄉或者老舊有安全考慮的這些校舍，我們確實也跟行政院爭取，希望未來能夠有4年350億的經費來做改善。"],["王委員育敏：你現在爭取到了嗎？行政院卓院長有沒有允諾你了？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在已經報到行政院去了。"],["王委員育敏：已經報到行政院？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["王委員育敏：針對這部分，我希望鄭部長你要多爭取，特別是今天我要幫嘉義縣多講話，因為它的財政真的很困難，你不能讓它惡性循環，就是說財政越困難的縣市，你的教育資源投入越少，然後它的出生率就越低，現在有非常多的小學已經面臨要關閉的命運，你任教過的光華國小，也從一百多人變成現在只剩下二十幾人，未來它說不定就不存在了。針對這樣的現象，本席認為一定要去改善，而這個改善的力量就要由中央去挹注地方，這部分部長可以允諾嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心，我想這是大家都共同認可的價值，關於怎麼樣縮短城鄉的差距，我們在新的一年總共編列40億for偏鄉，其中24億是進行設備上的改善及精進，另外16億則是對人事、教師相關經費上的一些協助。感謝委員的認可，我想這個方向是我們一直要努力的。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們全力來推動，本席希望可以改善這一些財政比較弱勢的縣市，讓這些孩子不要一開始就輸在起跑點。","接下來是有關於食安的問題，最近也傳出學校的營養午餐出現異物的情況，根據食藥署的統計，學校在食品安全中毒場所當中是列在前三名。有關於食安的問題，我覺得非常重要，也應該要改善，其實本席有提出學校供餐法，之前教育部也說要來推動，但是到目前為止都沒有看到修法的進度。部長，在您任內，學校供餐法、強化校園食安是您優先的重點嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：讓學童能夠有更健康營養的午餐供應，我想這是大家共同認可的價值，至於怎麼樣供餐，詳細的情形我請彭署長來補充說明。"],["王委員育敏：署長你來說明，你們現在的進度到哪裡？有沒有要優先推動？"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。我們就三個議題跟地方政府還有相關團體來尋求共識，第一個是偏鄉的供餐，第二個是人事相關的經費，第三個是供餐的相關費用，包括單餐的費用等等的一些參數及公式，這些都在謀求共識中，一直會跟行政院保持聯繫，跟委員補充，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：那你的進度呢？就是說這三項可能還沒達到共識……"],["彭署長富源：這三項的共識，現在的確還在尋求當中。"],["王委員育敏：你有沒有一個期程？我想要的是一個期程，就是說你預計什麼時候……"],["彭署長富源：我們2週內給委員報告，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，希望署長儘快給本席相關進度的報告，因為學校營養午餐涉及到全國這麼多學童食安的問題，我希望透過更嚴謹的立法，我們可以確保，也讓家長安心，他的孩子在學校裡面所吃到的營養午餐都是安全的、沒有疑慮的，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：好。"],["王委員育敏：那我們一起來努力，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：部長、署長請回，謝謝王育敏委員的質詢。","再來輪由范雲委員質詢，請陳秀寳委員代主席，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基\n金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基\n金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金；三、審查114年度行政法人國\n家運動訓練中心預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00006"}}},{"id":"156942","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156942","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bb49019e682bf252cf5866fb8dd1f93153993c1c201d063e6aa242417b77be3175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"12:24:02 - 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請彭部長。"},{"start":11.127,"end":35.909,"text":"土友也好 彭部長那今天也很多委員針對環評法施行細則的部分有在做討論那環境部在上個月通過這個環評法的施行細則那當然其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置環評權下放的地方那我也看到很多立委表達很多反對的意見那針對這部分部長你現在到底有什麼想法"},{"start":36.469,"end":57.831,"text":"報告委員那個原來是預告啦齁那當然我剛才跟那個幾位委員報告就是說當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多但是我也承諾了全部都收回來包含的這個旅館文教設施還有光電還是我們中華來處理但是因為地方齁像桃園環保局他的其實也有他的環評的量能我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審啦"},{"start":58.211,"end":80.687,"text":"所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給像桃園就是有委託的那我們也希望他的量能他的專業度能夠提升起來那我們這個環保是有一系列的計畫在推動這個事但是無論如何這個要社會的共識才是最重要的我們要等一段時間明年的時候再來看所以現在只是預告所以目前沒有正式的實施那我也宣誓全部都收回來了"},{"start":81.243,"end":105.743,"text":"那所以在這之前部長跟我們下面的同仁沒有充分溝通針對環評法施行棄責的部分沒有做充分溝通嗎?報告委員可能是我剛上任可能對很多這件事情不是太過了解所以也造成一些困擾這個在這邊致歉所以因為剛剛也聽到很多立委在講我們也很擔心環境部是不是針對這一部分垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題啊?"},{"start":107.794,"end":127.07,"text":" bicy,這個我會改進啦這個未來我保證是絕對不會有問題的好那針對預算的部分我們去年8月22號我們從環保署升格變成環境部那當然我們規模跟預算一定比之前都還大那當然我們也針對剛剛"},{"start":128.391,"end":144.318,"text":"我們瞭解一下針對環評的部分因為那時候你們在編預算的時候我們想說這環評的部分有很多那時候你們當下是說交友給地方去做那交友給地方去做我們看交友給地方去做為什麼明年114年還成長了12.8%大概400多萬那不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的"},{"start":151.802,"end":171.12,"text":"這個當時是他們希望補助給地方例如說讓地方的人力還有他的量能可以增加而且要跟我們中央同一個標準所以針對這個預算當初本來我們環境部的意思是說這一些環評下放給地方的部分我們中央會補助給地方是嗎預算編列的時候有這樣嗎請問我們司長回應"},{"start":172.223,"end":193.694,"text":"報告委員其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方那但是對於地方的人員的培訓啊或者人力的補償我們是有演繹其他的方式來補助甚至是未來可能用約聘的人力來補助那我們的預算會增加比較多其實是因為省的案子比較多相關的本來的"},{"start":194.454,"end":195.395,"text":"公務預算主要是用在相關方面的。"},{"start":211.812,"end":224.783,"text":"所以當下我們也覺得很奇怪就是我們當下編列這個預算的時候是把這個環評權很多五大項的分工讓地方針對環評權的部分讓地方去處理嘛"},{"start":227.585,"end":250.78,"text":"沒有沒有要跟委員講我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的的部分納進去這預算完全是中央在運用的包括我們要審案子要給委員的初期費審查費甚至我們要去現勘還有相關的我們自己有一些行政事務的要要處理那甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評還有我們環評總體總體檢都需要用到這些經費"},{"start":256.917,"end":281.127,"text":"所以因為那時候我們就覺得這個部分預算所以可能要檢討一下你那時候環評的部分環評權下方地方正常來講你的案件應該是減少的所以我們認為說你很多很多環評的部分下方地方案件應該是減少結果反而預算是增加所以我們針對這一部分那時候對這個預算的編列有一些質疑那到時候我希望說還是"},{"start":282.568,"end":297.995,"text":"゚✧✧✧"},{"start":298.342,"end":326.52,"text":"好委員謝謝謝謝委員的指正我們會來處理好那還有我也想了解當初為什麼這個環評法施行細則據我們來看了一下我不知道他當初的動機是什麼因為我們看了一下你看這個2015年他修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本我們看起來這跟9年前好像是幾乎是一模一樣"},{"start":327.745,"end":348.727,"text":"部長你有沒有注意到你看這個版本幾乎是一模一樣那不是當初又說要中央地方權責要分工分清結果我們2015的修正版本跟你現在2024的修正版本幾乎一模一樣不知道針對這部分是參考過去的版本還是有參考我們學者的意見"},{"start":351.294,"end":370.885,"text":"嗯這邊跟委員報告2015年修正是因為我們以前沒有做這個副表沒有分工的副表所以那時候常常就會爭議說欸這個到底權限是中央還是地方所以我們2015年修修法的時候是訂定這個副表把它權限分清楚那後來在修法的時候是把"},{"start":373.097,"end":374.918,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管及基金預算"},{"start":393.972,"end":417.975,"text":" bicyclone共門講說欸旅館能不能給他們來審。這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致。那相關考量點也一樣。那我們是想說一個案子地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看。所以我們當初才會考量說是不是要下放給地方。所以是有提這個預告的版本主要就是要收集各界的意見。"},{"start":419.488,"end":447.035,"text":"那現在還在預告收集意見的其中所以這個施行細則並不是說舊版本新版本施行細則它其實就是在講主要是在講權責分工的部分對所以這部分我希望還是要注意一下當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方權貧的權責能夠分工清楚而且希望能夠盡量來利益迴避可是沒有想到2024我們又感覺又修回這樣子那對於我們2015"},{"start":448.695,"end":450.215,"text":"二、延期延期延期延期延期"},{"start":466.36,"end":495.866,"text":"我剛剛也聽很多委員在講其實針對我們現在新的預告修正版本這一部分你看我們之前環保署長詹順貴有講他把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方他說這是再生能源的大災難而且我們也知道地檢署一直也都偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、代表地方等等很多很多的光電弊案"},{"start":496.426,"end":515.76,"text":"那結果環境部現在居然不但沒有去改善而且居然還預告修正要把我們光電環評權下放地方那你不是不但沒有改善你還助長地方的首長讓他們跟民政研順序要這個回饋金是不是讓這個弊案發生的頻率會更高"},{"start":517.321,"end":537.128,"text":"因為原來是沒有太陽光墊的,然後我們後來這次是15公頃以上,然後那15公頃以上的都要經過山坡地要環屏,那目前因為這個因為有剛好這個細則的關係,所以就把這個15到30讓地方來,超過30是中央,那不過我也跟委員報告,因為我已經宣布了,所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。"},{"start":537.728,"end":555.618,"text":"好,所以其實把這光電納入環評其實真的也是大眾的期待啦只是說把這環評權下放地方大家還是怕這些弊案重申求員兼裁判很擔心這樣子的問題所以居然部長已經說不會下放我希望"},{"start":556.238,"end":557.139,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":584.235,"end":587.504,"text":"好謝謝圖圈級委員我們中午不休息好直達這個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1703,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（12時10分）好，謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：彭部長，今天也有很多委員針對環評法施行細則在做討論，環境部在上個月通過環評法施行細則，其中有關旅館、文教設施以及光電的設置，環評權下放地方，我也看到很多立委表達了很多反對的意見，針對這個部分，部長，你現在到底有什麼想法？"],["彭部長啓明：好，報告委員，那個原來是預告，當然我剛才也跟幾位委員報告，當時這個程序可能我沒有參與太多，但是我也承諾了全部都收回來，包含了旅館、文教設施和光電，還是我們中央來處理，但是像桃園環保局，其實也有它的環評的量能，我們還是希望地方有一些案子可以審，所以現在的確在旅館的部分有委託給地方處理，像桃園就是有委託地方的，我們也希望它的量能、它的專業度能夠提升起來，我們的環保司有一系列的計畫在推動這件事，但是無論如何，這個要有社會的共識才是最重要的，我們要等一段時間，明年的時候再來看，所以現在只是預告，目前沒有正式實施，我也宣示全部都收回來了。"],["涂委員權吉：所以在這之前部長跟下面的同仁沒有充分溝通，針對環評法試行細則的部分，沒有做充分溝通嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我剛上任，可能對這件事情不是太了解，所以也造成了一些困擾，在這邊致歉。"],["涂委員權吉：剛剛也聽到很多立委在講，我們也很擔心，環境部針對這一部分，在垂直溝通的地方是不是有一些問題？"],["彭部長啓明：好，報告委員，這個我會改進，我保證未來是絕對不會有問題的。"],["涂委員權吉：好。針對預算的部分，去年8月22日環保署升格為環境部，當然規模跟預算一定比之前都還大，剛剛我們瞭解一下，針對環評的部分，因為你們在編預算的時候我們想，環評的部分有很多你們當下是說交由地方去做，既然交由地方去做，為什麼明（114）年還成長了12.8%，大概四百多萬，不知道當初這個預算是怎麼編列的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個當時是他們希望補助給地方，比如說，讓地方的人力和量能可以增加，而且要跟我們中央同一個標準。"],["涂委員權吉：所以針對這個預算，當初本來環境部的意思是，這些環評下放給地方的部分，中央會補助給地方，是嗎？預算編列的時候有這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我請我們司長回應。"],["徐司長淑芷：報告委員，其實我們的公務預算是沒有補助地方，但是對於地方的人員培訓或者人力的補償，我們是有研議其他的方式來補足，甚至未來可能用約聘的人力來補足。那我們的預算會增加比較多，其實是因為審的案子比較多，應該是說，我們環評的錢本來就少，所以增加一點錢，比例就好像比較高，實際上我們是希望未來可以導入AI，甚至是我們現在正在委辦環評總體檢，這些都需要費用，我們公務預算主要是用在這相關方面。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們也覺得很奇怪，當初編列這個預算的時候是把環評權五大項的分工、地方針對環評權的部分，讓地方去處理。"],["徐司長淑芷：沒有，沒有，要跟委員講，我們這個預算並沒有把下放給地方的部分納進去，這個預算完全是中央在運用的，包括我們審案子要給委員的出席費、審查費，甚至我們要去現勘，還有我們自己也有一些相關的行政事務要處理，甚至是我們導入AI來協助我們辦環評，還有我們環評總體檢，都需要用到這些經費。"],["涂委員權吉：那時候我們就覺得這個部分的預算可能要檢討一下，環評權下放地方，正常來講，案件應該是減少的，我們認為，環評權下放地方，案件應該是減少，結果反而預算是增加，所以我們針對這一部分的預算編列有一些質疑，到時候我希望還是針對最近跟未來我們審查數量的部分，讓我們來瞭解一下，為什麼下放地方之後，正常應該是數量減少，結果反而預算增加，針對這一部分，希望提供一些數據讓我們來瞭解一下。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，謝謝，謝謝委員的指正，我們會來處理。"],["涂委員權吉：好。還有，我也想瞭解，我不知道當初修正環評法施行細則的動機是什麼，我們看了一下，2015年修正的版本跟2024年修正的版本，我們看起來，今年修正的版本跟9年前好像幾乎是一模一樣，部長，你有沒有注意到？你看，這兩個版本幾乎是一模一樣，當初又說中央、地方權責要分工分清，結果2015年的修正版本跟現在2024年的修正版本幾乎一模一樣，針對這一部分，不知道是參考過去的版本，還是有參考我們學者的意見？"],["徐司長淑芷：跟委員報告，2015年修正，是因為我們以前沒有做分工的附表，所以那時候常常就會有爭議，到底權限在中央還是地方，所以我們2015年修法的時候是訂定這個附表，把權限分清楚。後來在修法的時候，是把旅館、文教設施這個敏感區域的審查，修法變成是中央來審查，主要就是因為美麗灣的事件，所以後來修法變成是中央來審查。我們後來為什麼會想地方是不是能辦，是因為經過這麼多年以來，地方主動跟我們講說旅館能不能給他們審，這樣子他們審查的依據才會一致，相關的考量點也一樣。我們想，一個案子，地方也要把敏感區當成非常重要的來看，所以我們當初才會考量是不是要下放給地方，才提出這個預告的版本，主要就是要蒐集各界的意見，現在還在預告蒐集意見的期間，所以這個施行細則並不是分舊版本、新版本，施行細則其實主要就是在講權責分工的部分。"],["涂委員權吉：對。所以這個部分我希望還是要注意一下，當初修法的目的就是希望中央地方環評的權責能夠分工清楚，而且希望能夠儘量利益迴避，可是沒有想到2024年我們感覺又修回這樣子。對於我們2015年修法所要講的事情、所要做的事情，包括希望分工清楚、利益迴避等等，結果沒有想到2024年又重蹈覆轍，又走回原來的老路，所以這部分希望部長也能夠瞭解一下。因為我剛剛也聽到很多委員在講，針對新的預告修正版本，我們之前的環保署副署長詹順貴有講，把30公頃以下的太陽光電開發案環評交給地方，這是再生能源的大災難，而且我們也知道，地檢署一直在偵辦很多鄉鎮長、議長、議員、地方代表等等涉入的光電弊案，結果環境部現在不但沒有去改善，而且居然還預告修正，要把我們光電環評權下放地方，這不但沒有改善，還助長地方的首長，讓他們更名正言順地去要回饋金，是不是讓弊案發生的頻率更高？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，原來是沒有太陽光電的，然後我們這次做的是針對15公頃以上的部分，15公頃以上的案子，經過山坡地，要環評，目前因為剛好這個細則修正的關係，所以就把15公頃到30公頃的部分讓地方來審，超過30公頃的部分是中央審。不過我也跟委員報告，因為我已經宣布了，所以這個全部都收回到中央來處理。謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：好。把光電納入環評，其實真的也是大眾的期待，只是說把環評權下放地方，大家還是怕會造成弊案叢生，球員兼裁判，擔心會有這樣子的問題，既然部長已經說不會下放，我希望部長針對這部分，跟我們同仁好好討論，好好評估，大家擔心沒有辦法改善，結果卻變成好像去助長地方跟光電業者產生弊案的機會，所以我希望我們環境部要做好監督的責任，保證不下放的部分，真的也希望部長能夠審慎評估。"],["彭部長啓明：是，我絕對不會下放，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂權吉委員。我們中午不休息，直到質詢結束，環境部備詢的人可以用餐。","接下來請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 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們有把第一任川普總統的"},{"start":18.294,"end":47.371,"text":"政策、方向以及面臨到的問題跟現在第二任有可能的一個狀況來做一個彙整這本席予以肯定為什麼因為畢竟雖然大家在講是說這個難以預測可是總是他已經當過一任的總統嘛那既然已經當過一任的美國總統的話他確實他第一任不管他的方向、做法以及策略跟第二任可能有規則可循不過我想在舊教裡面"},{"start":48.211,"end":62.801,"text":"比較重要的地方在於是你的第16頁喔是未來觸及台灣：觸及美方的前兩項檢視標準被列為觀察名單是成常態主要是講是說因為2018年開始美中兩大強權所以造成說台灣對於美國的貿易順差持續的擴大是沒有錯"},{"start":69.462,"end":79.552,"text":"2018年到現在之後,到底擴大到多少的一個程度?對,所以呢,所以我們這個圖啊,也有秀出了就往上升嘛,是不是?對,往上升,從109億到633億,這個就是"},{"start":86.138,"end":113.396,"text":"因為他這個不是只有商品而已還包括服務商品服務兩樣那其中我特別看到是說你的第一個兩項檢視標準那有一個5的一個備註小字下面就講說三項檢視標準裡面第一對美商品跟服務貿易順差於150億美金是不是150億是多出來還是從以前到現在可能我們就有這樣的一個"},{"start":114.636,"end":142.441,"text":"我們以前是沒有150億所以以前就是說所以你看從2018年以後我們就慢慢的一直增加到633億所以以前是沒有那現在是越來越來越來所以就是說這一項所以這150億是從什麼時候開始增加他在上一次幾年的時候他就開始因為這是你的報告啊你的報告2015年的時候他就提出就是說要150億"},{"start":144.061,"end":173.161,"text":"2015年就提出要150億對好然後一直到現在所以說150億是美方那邊有提出的一個數字對是不是是沒有錯好那您看第17頁是台灣你的第三點台灣縮小對美國貿易順差的建議做法對這是您具體建議的央行總裁具體建議我們政府可能要怎麼做是擴大對美的採購能源對農產品跟軍品來縮小對美的貿易順差對是沒有錯"},{"start":174.321,"end":199.313,"text":"好150億這個數字有沒有覺得很耳熟蛤?很耳熟阿最近好像在哪裡有聽過150億這個數字前兩天三大報頭版頭有沒有看到是三大報頭版頭寫什麼寫說民進黨政府有可能要跟美國提出軍品的採購清單阿是150億美金阿"},{"start":204.65,"end":222.915,"text":"約合台幣5000億左右然後其中裡面包括F35包括愛國者飛彈等等大家那個時候覺得好奇啊這怎麼新聞怎麼來的外媒先講是說外媒先報導但之後第二天三大報頭版頭都一樣處理我們第一次看到三大報頭版頭針對一個外媒報導"},{"start":226.356,"end":242.2,"text":"總統府否認說沒有這個事情沒有放話國防部部長也來立法院否認說沒有這個事情甚至國防部部長講說國防部沒有所謂的採購清單但是總裁我覺得你好像比較是一個講實話的人"},{"start":244.241,"end":259.904,"text":"因為就你來講美國服務貿易順差達150億美元然後你們建議要對美國縮小貿易順差的建議做法就是採購美國的能源、農產品或是軍品怎麼那麼巧"},{"start":261.225,"end":280.573,"text":"川普當選不到一個禮拜馬上我們偉大的政府就放消息說要採購150億美元的軍品但是怎樣對美國交代真的是還沒有人家還沒有上任但是交保護費我們已經想著要把白花花的鈔票要奉上了是不是"},{"start":281.273,"end":288.515,"text":"數字怎麼會那麼剛好我也覺得很納悶我們的逆差150億馬上我們要補一個150億希望我們能夠採購150億而且當時我也講如果說我們一講說150億的話那會不會也讓美國或是我們在國防部我還是再一次強調軍品採購的部分如果說是我們需要的武器我們一定大力支持"},{"start":310.02,"end":329.866,"text":"我們也希望中華民國有建軍有捍衛自主的能力但是如果說我們自己就先底牌講說我們準備了150要去購買武器的話那未來在溝通談判的當中美方軍品採購是美國的賣方市場不是買方市場所以未來在軍品採購的時候會不會增加我們談判的難度"},{"start":330.986,"end":342.676,"text":"這邊是說有可能他會以150億往上起算底價就150億因為他是要說你已經你們三大報都已經講了台灣已經準備150億要來買武器啊所以未來他可能開價160、170億"},{"start":347.98,"end":362.728,"text":"總裁,你的建議欸所以感覺起來是政府部沒有聽到你的建議沒有,不是你建議縮小美國順差的建議做法就是要採購軍品然後又看到了美國對我們的這個有150億美元"},{"start":367.59,"end":382.301,"text":"然後我們現在被列為觀察名單是就是因為有這150億這個可能是巧合啦謝謝謝謝洪孟楷委員總裁是不是補書面的資料給洪孟楷委員好嗎我不知道總裁可以給我什麼樣的書面資料是給我們的採購清單證實這個這個總裁應該是不能辦公啦對因為是超過時間總裁我一數啦朝委站起來我尊重"},{"start":396.912,"end":418.513,"text":"但我意思是說其實我相信你這一個報告是合理客觀的數據那如果說是這樣的話政府部門真的要做什麼事情應該要讓國人知道國人有知的權利今天如果真的是川普政府他上任他真的要求提出什麼樣要求國人也應該知道"},{"start":419.554,"end":420.255,"text":"接著請羅廷偉委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1405,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時17分）主席謝謝，麻煩請我們央行總裁。"],["主席：請央行總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：楊總裁早。上午到現在，本席也特別鉅細靡遺看了一下你今天的報告，其中召委的題目也講到川普總統的部分。我想先肯定一下，你們有把第一任川普總統的政策方向以及面臨到的問題，跟現在第二任有可能的狀況來做一個彙整。這本席予以肯定，為什麼？雖然大家講這個難以預測，可是他是已經當過一任的總統。既然已經當過一任的美國總統，確實他第一任不管他的方向、做法以及策略，跟第二任可能有規則可循。不過我想就教裡面比較重要的地方在於達告的第16頁，未來臺灣觸及美方的前兩項檢視標準被列為觀察名單恐成常態，主要是講因為2018年開始美中兩大強權的貿易爭端，所以造成臺灣對於美國的貿易順差持續的擴大。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：2018年到現在之後，到底擴大到多少的程度？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以我們這個圖也有秀出來……"],["洪委員孟楷：就往上升嘛！是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，往上升，從109億到633億，因為他這個不是只有商品而已，還有包括服務……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，商品、服務兩樣。其中我特別看到的是，你的第一個兩項檢視標準右上角有一個小字的5，下面的備註就講三項檢視標準裡面，第一、對美商品跟服務貿易順差逾150億美金。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：150億是多出來，還是從以前到現在可能我們就有這樣的一個gap？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們以前沒有150億，所以你看從2018年以後我們就慢慢的一直增加到633億，所以以前是沒有，現在是越來越……所以說這一項……"],["洪委員孟楷：這150億是從什麼時候開始增加？"],["楊總裁金龍：他在上一次，幾年的時候他就開始……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為這是你的報告，你的報告……"],["楊總裁金龍：2015年的時候，他就提出就是說要150億。"],["洪委員孟楷：2015年就提出要150億？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，然後一直到現在，所以說150億是美方那邊提出的一個數字，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那您看第17頁，你的第3點，臺灣縮小對美國貿易順差的建議做法，這是您具體建議的，央行總裁具體建議我們政府可能要怎麼做，擴大對美採購能源、農產品跟軍品，來縮小對美的貿易順差。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，150億這個數字有沒有覺得很耳熟？最近好像在哪裡有聽過150億這個數字，前兩天三大報頭版頭有沒有看到？三大報頭版頭寫什麼？寫說民進黨政府有可能要跟美國提出軍品的採購清單150億美金，約合台幣5,000億左右，其中裡面包括F35，包括愛國者飛彈等等，大家那個時候覺得好奇啊！這個新聞怎麼來的？先講是外媒先報導，但之後第二天三大報頭版頭都一樣處理，我們第一次看到三大報頭版頭針對一個外媒報導，總統府否認說沒有這個事情啊！沒有放話，國防部部長也來立法院否認，說沒有這個事情啊！甚至國防部部長說，國防部沒有所謂的採購清單啊！但是總裁，我覺得你好像比較是一個講實話的人，因為就你來講，美國服務貿易順差達150億美元，然後你們建議要對美國縮小貿易順差的建議做法，就是採購美國的能源、農產品或是軍品。怎麼那麼巧？川普當選不到一個禮拜，我們偉大的政府馬上就放消息說要採購150億美元的軍品，這是怎樣？對美國交代？人家還沒有上任，但是交保護費，我們已經想著要把白花花的鈔票奉上了是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過這個委員在……"],["洪委員孟楷：數字怎麼會那麼剛好？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我也不曉得啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：我也覺得很納悶啊！我們的逆差150億，馬上我們要補一個150億，希望我們能夠採購150億，而且當時我也想，如果說我們一講150億的話，那會不會也讓美國或是我們在國防部……我還是再一次強調，軍品採購的部分如果是我們需要的武器，我們一定大力支持，我們也希望中華民國建軍有捍衛自主的能力，但是如果說我們自己就掀底牌，說我們準備了150億要去購買武器的話，那未來在溝通談判當中……軍品採購是美國的賣方市場，不是買方市場，未來在軍品採購的時候會不會增加我們談判的難度？這變成有可能他會以150億往上起算，底價就150億，因為他知道你們三大報都已經講了，臺灣已經準備150億要來買武器，所以未來他可能開價160億、170億。"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，我……"],["洪委員孟楷：總裁，你的建議耶！所以感覺起來是政府部門有聽到你的建議。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啦！不是，我……"],["洪委員孟楷：你建議縮小美國順差的建議做法就是要採購軍品，然後又看到美國對我們的這個有150億美元，然後我們現在被列為觀察名單，就是因為有這150億。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個可能是巧合啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。總裁是不是補書面的資料給洪孟楷委員好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：我不知道總裁可以給我什麼樣的書面資料，給我們的採購清單證實……"],["楊總裁金龍：這個中央銀行應該是沒辦法……"],["主席：因為已經超過時間了。"],["洪委員孟楷：總裁，召委站起來了，我尊重，但我的意思是說，其實我相信你這個報告是合理客觀的數據，如果是這樣的話，政府部門真的要做什麼事情應該要讓國人知道，國人有知的權利。今天如果真的是川普政府上任，他真的提出什麼樣的要求，國人也應該知道。付保護費與否一回事，但是我們每一塊錢都是人民的納稅錢，應該要讓國人清楚明白知道，花的每一塊錢是要讓美國的貿易順差消除……"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：是要保護臺灣，還是要做大內宣、大外宣，講清楚嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝孟楷委員。接著請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156935","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156935","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b191ea23caa5c3bae2a0d4a4306ab205f3993c1c201d063e68bbdb5b55d1651485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:04:50 - 12:13:55","影片長度":"00:09:05","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T12:04:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T12:13:55+08:00","duration":545,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.594093750000003,"end":18.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.35721875,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.36471875,"end":25.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.05221875,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.199718750000002,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.65409375,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.119718750000004,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.034093750000004,"end":61.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.08846875,"end":65.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.94471875,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.50034375,"end":86.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.81909375000001,"end":98.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.53034375,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.75159375000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.58221875000001,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.62409375000001,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.64096875000001,"end":121.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.67471875000001,"end":131.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.68659375000001,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.03159375,"end":145.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.66221875000002,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.34471875,"end":155.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.92221875,"end":157.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.69409375,"end":160.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.86659375000002,"end":163.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.08971875,"end":171.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.56534375,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.81846875000002,"end":181.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.99409375000002,"end":203.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.65721875000003,"end":205.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.27721875,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.29409375,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.37846875000002,"end":207.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.54721875,"end":207.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.23909375000002,"end":207.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.81284375,"end":228.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.22596875000002,"end":210.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.80721875,"end":217.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.05846875,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.96971875000003,"end":236.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.92221875,"end":252.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.73096875000002,"end":247.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.56096875000003,"end":270.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.35159375,"end":306.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.68909375000004,"end":270.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.34721875,"end":298.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.96659375,"end":304.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.32096875,"end":304.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.92846875000004,"end":305.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.75096875,"end":308.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.21471875000003,"end":310.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.02034375,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.08284375,"end":316.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.62284375,"end":321.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.55034375,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.61784375,"end":321.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.65159375,"end":321.66846875000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您不能講,可是你們總要去做各種假設嘛。這樣的一個條例來,它的自經區裡面它到底放寬了哪些事情?"},{"start":221.922,"end":228.365,"text":"那放寬了這些事情有沒有可能變成我們台灣包括精敏科技裡面要變成一個破口?"},{"start":229.365,"end":234.007,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":253.613,"end":255.374,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":280.932,"end":307.307,"text":"根本已經涉及到的國安涉及到未來整個經濟產業的布局這樣的話把它用離島建設這麼大的一個帽子然後卻暗藏著這樣的一些未來可能的風險我覺得這件事非常的可怕你們必須要好好正視這樣的一個條例未來他在審查的過程都必須要把這些事情必須要講清楚好不好那第二個同樣的狀況啦事實上"},{"start":311.068,"end":331.708,"text":"昨天川普也公布他的國務卿了嘛,他公布這個盧比歐嘛盧比歐當年他是美中公平貿易執行法是他在當這個眾議院的議員的時候他推動的所以他是在美國禁止跟中國交易敏感科技的法案裡面的一個推動者"},{"start":332.529,"end":335.511,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":357.906,"end":377.621,"text":"這件事美國也在在意了結果我們台灣自己不好好的做好我們自己的法官竟然還有委員要用離島建設條例然後把它變成一個破口我是真的很擔心啦台灣不能變成這一個中美貿易戰然後台灣變成一個法外之地"},{"start":378.957,"end":398.297,"text":"這部分次長我們會如果是這樣我們會審慎評估的啦我們會審慎評估你們一定要審慎評估啦因為這個會影響面會比較比較大你們一定要審慎評估啦我在下一頁齁福建事實上他公佈了22條的文件齁他訂立2025年叫做兩岸融合發展示範區的目標"},{"start":401.514,"end":427.226,"text":"所以兩岸融合發展示範區這個目標跟現在的離島建設條例我看這是有隔岸呼應的這怎麼會隔岸呼應呢當然這陣地的你不用說我們都站在經濟產業面包括未來台灣面對整個國際形勢川普當選後的一些我們可能要想到的一些因應措施你一定要開始去記錄我們現在在討論"},{"start":430.587,"end":456.187,"text":"更何況還要設計國際醫療特區然後可以引進中國的醫生進入離島嗎我會記得最近大家為了這個潑潑牙醫為了這個潑潑牙醫大家覺得說這個就是在於對我們這個醫師法的這個法案的一個一個可能未周圍的地方然後潑潑牙醫跑進來台灣大家都很生氣"},{"start":457.829,"end":465.695,"text":"這個不只是病患生氣,連醫生也生氣,大家都很生氣。結果這個醫療專區,就不要破破牙醫,但我們要中中牙醫。要這些中中牙醫,然後都是跑到離島,然後在離島他們就會有特許都可以跳過醫療法,可以這樣嗎?"},{"start":478.861,"end":502.149,"text":"來衛福部說明一下目前醫療法跟醫師法裡面都規定在台灣執行醫療要先取得那個國內的那個醫師執照才可以做醫療行為當然啊當然啊因為我們認為說醫師要有醫師執照就是他要有專業的訓練嘛這對於患者他有十足的保障啊對啊我們現在我們跟中國的醫療我們有承認中國他們的醫學醫學的一個訓練過程嗎"},{"start":505.182,"end":523.794,"text":"我目前是沒有承認他們的學歷沒有承認嘛對不對那就是這是一個前提啊那這個前提不應該會在討論這個離島建設條例的時候然後他就變成一個破口他不可能變成一個上位法然後可以凌駕於我們的醫師法凌駕於很多其他的法規吧"},{"start":525.535,"end":529.118,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1198,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時5分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部次長。"],["主席：請連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，今天審查幾項法案，離島建設條例的部分是要增設離島自經區，在第十八條之一規範，自經區相關的一些管理規範、審查基準，由離島縣政府以自治條例定之。如果以自治條例定之，基本上就是架空兩岸人民關係條例，甚至是政府採購法。次長，對於這樣的狀況，你支持用離島自經區架空現在臺灣和中國之間的審核辦法嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：其實目前已經有一個試辦金門馬祖澎湖與大陸地區通航實施辦法，這個部分目前進行的很順利。首先應該先從這個辦法著手，洽請這三個離島縣市政府去了解有沒有窒礙難行的地方，應該是先從這個部分做起。再來，因為它要訂定離島自由貿易示範區，而且是由各離島縣政府以自治條例定之，因為這涉及到的層面、影響非常廣，不是只涉及這個法令，可能還涉及其他相關的土地、環評等等法令，我覺得這個面向應該要拉高。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，本席覺得應該用經貿的角度來看待這件事情。"],["連次長錦漳：對，這個部分應該要拉高層次。"],["蔡委員易餘：這不是只關係到離島地區的發展而已，應該要站在經貿的角度思考。如果這樣的自經區成立，有可能變成洗產地的地方嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：有可能也會影響到臺灣本島的產業發展，因為這個部分涉及的層面比較廣。我們建議如果要這麼做，應該拉到中央層級做跨部會的相關討論，討論完之後……"],["蔡委員易餘：昨天同樣是在經濟委員會，本席質詢農業部的時候有說到中國牡蠣，中國的蚵仔都用金門的名義進來臺灣，金門有那麼多蚵仔嗎？金門養蚵的面積並沒有那麼大，可是臺灣卻出現一堆金門的蚵仔，事實上都是中國的。離島自經區會不會變成這樣的狀況？一些中國的公司或是臺灣的公司，透過在離島設立分公司的形式，把它變成自經區的貨物，然後銷到全世界。未來可能會發生美中貿易戰，川普發動2.0的時候，它是否會變成脫離美中貿易戰的一個窗口？本席擔心會變成這樣，次長。"],["連次長錦漳：如果是這樣，我們可能就會比較麻煩。"],["蔡委員易餘：雖然你們不能明說，可是你們總要去做各種假設嘛！這樣的條例，它的自經區到底放寬哪些事情？放寬這些事情之後，包括機敏科技，臺灣有沒有可能變成一個破口？有可能嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：因為它有排除一些相關法令，這部分涉及的層面，除了剛才委員說的一些貨品，其實還包括剛才說的，是不是有一些關鍵技術，或是有一些人員、資金、物品等等的進出，這個影響層面很大，所以我們才建議是不是先從現有法令去看，如果可以的話，就用現有法令處理，因為它本來就有一套比較完整、嚴謹的措施，就算真的最後要走到自由貿易示範區，真的應該要提到中央，跨部會好好的審慎評估。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然嘛！這一定要由中央層級審核相關的配套，怎麼可能會以離島的縣政府為主體，直接用自治條例定出一個法令？因為這已經涉及國安，涉及未來整個經濟產業的布局。現在用離島建設這麼大的一頂帽子，卻暗藏一些未來可能的風險，本席覺得這件事非常可怕，你們必須好好正視這樣的條例，未來審查時必須把這些事情說清楚，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好的。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，同樣的狀況啦！事實上昨天川普也公布他的國務卿了嘛！"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是盧比歐嘛！當年的美中公平貿易執行法，是他在擔任眾議院議員的時候推動的，他是美國禁止和中國交易敏感科技法案的推動者。"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以由他擔任國務卿，我們可以想像美國未來的戰略布局，和中國一定是更大的競爭關係嘛！前幾週美國也在注意台積電的7奈米晶片，是否以其他公司的方式跑到中國設廠，這件事美國也在注意，結果臺灣不做好把關，竟然還有委員要用離島建設條例讓它變成一個破口。本席真的很擔心啦！在中美貿易戰當中，臺灣不能變成一個法外之地，次長。"],["連次長錦漳：如果是這樣，我們會審慎評估啦！因為這個影響面比較大。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們一定要審慎評估啦！福建市公佈22項文件，訂定2025年兩岸融合發展示範區的目標，本席認為這個目標和現在的離島建設條例是在隔岸呼應。當然，這關係到政治，你不用回答，不過站在經濟產業面的角度，包括未來臺灣面對整個國際情勢，在川普當選後，我們可能要思考一些因應措施。你們一定要開始計畫，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：有的，我們現在已經在討論了。"],["蔡委員易餘：更何況還要設計國際醫療特區，將中國醫生引進離島。本席記得最近大家才為了波波牙醫的問題在討論，認為我們的醫師法可能還有不夠周延的地方，導致波波牙醫進來臺灣，大家都很生氣，不只是病患生氣，連醫生也生氣。結果這個醫療專區呢？現在是不要波波牙醫，反而要中中牙醫嗎？讓他們可以到離島執業。在離島，他們就會有特許可以跳過醫療法，可以這樣做嗎？請衛福部說明一下。"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，目前醫療法和醫師法都規定，在臺灣執行醫療行為，要先取得國內的醫師執照才可以。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啊！因為我們認為能取得醫師執照，表示他有受過專業訓練嘛！這樣對患者才有十足的保障啊！現在我們有承認中國的醫學訓練過程嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：我們目前沒有承認他們的學歷。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有承認嘛！對不對？這是一個前提啊！這個前提不應該在討論離島建設條例的時候變成一個破口，它不能變成一個上位法，凌駕我們的醫師法和很多其他的法規吧？所以本席覺得大家要好好重視這件事情。"],["郭專門委員威中：對，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們一定要把這些可能會遇到的狀況說清楚，讓大家知道這樣的法案是不可行的，好不好？"],["郭專門委員威中：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請麥玉珍、麥玉珍，麥玉珍委員不在。","請陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請顏寬恒、顏寬恒，顏寬恒委員不在。","請王鴻薇、王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","請伍麗華、伍麗華，伍麗華委員不在。","請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","請洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","請林岱樺、林岱樺，林岱樺委員不在。","登記發言的委員，除了不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員張啓楷、邱議瑩、謝衣鳯、麥玉珍、林岱樺所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。","書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156931","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156931","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b83ca4f50f1f9f83f827f3c0965abc3d43993c1c201d063e6dab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:59:04 - 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部流通嗎除了央行以外這還有誰看過一二三哇除了央行以外他不能都沒看過20元的硬幣主席有看過嗎沒看過我也沒看過那我想說這個這個應該是真的吧這個貨幣是真的嗎"},{"start":594.153,"end":595.875,"text":"現在詐騙很多嘛,現在如果店家收到這個不會覺得這是詐騙嗎?"},{"start":613.459,"end":614.76,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說全世界呢"},{"start":638.593,"end":660.089,"text":"的二字坨的貨幣呢流通都不是很好對,那我們為什麼要繼續發行現在又走上電子知識時代啊這個就是說你看日本也是一樣的那個倫敦也是一樣的都已經知道其他各國都發行了但是他不能就說他的流通少那你就不發行那為什麼要發行流通少為什麼要發行發行給大家收藏嗎?給人家選擇啊"},{"start":664.333,"end":676.088,"text":"選擇 因為大家都不用阿那也不是說不用 那只是流透 發行來讓大家典藏 發行來在央行內部流透 央行都有20人我是問你政策啦 我對硬幣廠 你還要繼續發行嗎"},{"start":680.433,"end":680.453,"text":"謝謝陳一貞、張偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1257,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時59分）謝謝主席，請楊總裁。"],["主席：是，請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：陳委員早。"],["陳委員玉珍：總裁辛苦了。川普上任後，大概媒體推估有6項經濟政策改變，剛剛很多人都問了，包括美國將對全部進口商品徵收關稅10%到20%，對中國大陸的進口商品徵收60%關稅；減稅永久化；推動石油天然氣開採，剛剛說的對綠能產業的影響；然後21%的企業稅降到15%；遣返非法移民；美元貶值誘導，還有他當然會對他們的金融政策有很強大的干預，這個大概就是可能的政策改變。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我們看一下，他如果採用弱勢美元的做法……因為他覺得美元升值會減少他們的競爭力，提高關稅，然後出口的時候，他們出口要降低，要讓他們美元貶值，讓他們價格有競爭力，用貨物貶值來促進出口。請問他如果採取這個弱勢美元政策，對我們的匯市還有外匯存底的影響為何？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上川普都一直認為，他要採行的是弱勢美元的這個政策，但是你看看，從他9月底到現在，包括上任之後，美元沒有弱勢，美元反而是強起來。"],["陳委員玉珍：你的預期啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，因為就是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為他如果用高關稅，那其他各國也會採取弱勢貨幣，各國的貨幣競相比較貶值。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：我說會變成這樣子，大家競貶。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以美國川普的弱勢美元到目前為止，是沒有實現的。"],["陳委員玉珍：不過他也還沒有上任。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：各國的貨幣競貶的情況下，這個對於我們國家……就是我們的經濟成長現在不錯嘛！出口也暢旺，外匯存底也增加，從111年五千多，112年5,700，到今年9月已經快5,800了，那也一直成長，到時候他如果採弱勢……你說他不一定會採弱勢嗎？你的意思是他不一定會採弱勢？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為說實在的，有些時候美元是由市場來決定的，不是由總統來決定的。"],["陳委員玉珍：那政策影響很大，當然國家的貨幣政策影響也很大。"],["楊總裁金龍：你看看比如說，從他開始9月底一直到現在，美元就一直漲……"],["陳委員玉珍：我是想說會不會影響到，比如說包括我們出口的一些影響，貨幣政策影響到出口，那央行當然有時候要兼顧出口跟相關的外匯，但是還有一點很重要，在這個情況下，我們的貨幣也就比較往趨貶的方向，如果美國也要貶，我們大家要跟他維持一個平衡，我們為了出口也要貶。那這樣子還有一個問題是，利率呢？我們的利率，因為美國也有利率，雙率，匯率跟利率。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的利率，第一個，我們的利率還是由我們本身通膨的情況，未來通膨的情況是怎麼樣，來決定我們的匯率。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你現在採取的，好像感覺都是比較低利率……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有喔！"],["陳委員玉珍：匯率跟那個利率都相對比較低。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，如果你就說我們相對的，我們的報告這邊……"],["陳委員玉珍：不會嗎？我們的利率才多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，你看看我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：貸款才3%，美元的存款才1%多，美元的4%、5%……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們匯率的升貶幅度，你看看……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，我是比較國際，不是比較自己。"],["楊總裁金龍：比較國際，我們沒有啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是說，因為我看到一本書，就是陳南光的新書「再談致富的特權」裡頭，陳沖前院長說央行在乎的成績，就以那個外匯成績很好，出口很暢旺，但是會攸關致命的房價。裡面的論點就是說，雙率雙低策略當然幫助出口，但影響廠商升級，貨幣供給增加，資金成本又屬低廉就會推升房屋價格，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這是他的說法，但是我要……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不認同他的說法就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：不認同，當然不認同……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不認同陳沖的說法？"],["楊總裁金龍：而且沒有基礎……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有基礎？"],["楊總裁金龍：他的分析沒有基礎……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有基礎？我國的利率這麼低，事實上幫助那個……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以……"],["陳委員玉珍：請問總裁，你不認同他的看法，那我請教你，你的9月19號第七波信用管制措施以後，你有看到房價有降嗎？市場有降價嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，問題是說那個時候房價一直在上漲對不對，所以我們的道德說服跟第七波的時候，最重要的是要扭轉他的預期心理……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是房價會一直上漲的這種迷思。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：問題是有達到效果嗎？房價有下跌嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在已經扭轉，它已經停止在那邊了。"],["陳委員玉珍：有扭轉嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：它已經停止在那邊了。"],["陳委員玉珍：停止，但是有下跌嗎？如果你的策略……"],["楊總裁金龍：我總覺得不是說你的政策下去，房價就馬上下來，那不可能的……"],["陳委員玉珍：那你預計什麼時候會有一個結果？大概讓百姓覺得說，哇！房價總算比較接近到好像的確有點下跌，百姓比較有點負擔得起。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個怎麼回事？講到房價就開始有噪音了。等一下，我……"],["主席：機電組請看一下，好不好？請暫停時間。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是什麼問題呢？房價是關鍵字嗎？那怎麼辦呢？因為收音的時候可能會把這些雜音收下來就不清楚了。","好了，所以楊總裁，我知道你的意思，你當然希望是一種軟著陸的方式，不要說一下子往下，但是這個政策如果沒有成效的話，我們業界或是普遍在產業界來看的話，他會覺得也許取得資金的成本太低廉，也是造成這個房價推升的因素，這也是我們前院長陳沖所說的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：9月19號，現在還沒兩個月，沒關係……"],["楊總裁金龍：選擇性信用管制下去了以後，你看看整個的一個，就是說是要……"],["陳委員玉珍：總裁沒關係，因為9月19號到現在還沒兩個月，我們應該是比如說一季的時間，9月19號到大概比如說三個月，12月18號就三個月，就一季了，我們看一下這個成效，如果成效不好的話，我想你的策略可能是不是還有一些什麼相關的……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：比如說第八波啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不，第一個我們有道德說服，請他們一年之內要做一個調整，不要把資源太集中在房地產，這是第一個。那這個呢，他就必須要調整，這個是第一個。第二個呢，我們做這樣的第七波下去的時候，確實能夠讓第一個他的那個道德說服，他的執行能夠落實。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想到12月一季的時候，你要大概有個報告出來看是什麼結果。主席，為什麼時間倒數從一分鐘開始算？應該是兩分鐘。"],["主席：還沒有啊！你的時間還有。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK！好，再請問……"],["楊總裁金龍：第一……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係你再講一下，我說9月19日開始，那現在你是希望說，現在已經先暫停了大家覺得房價會上漲的迷思了嘛！你覺得有達到這個效果。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是問題是房價有沒有下跌？我們就是說這個匯率跟利率……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，現在如果以網路來看的話，他們的分析我不曉得是不是對啦！第一個，他們認為現在已經停止在那邊，但是它的價格的調整，他說恐怕要到明年中……"],["陳委員玉珍：明年中價格的調整……"],["楊總裁金龍：就是說明年中才有辦法慢慢的調整下來，我們也希望是這樣子的，這個是我們的希望啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我想請問另外一個問題，我想請教在場的各位，除了中央印製廠以外，有誰看過20元的硬幣？我不是請教你，我剛有拿到，這個有看過的請舉手。一位，那就是中央印製廠嗎？還是財政部門是嗎？哪個部會的？央行的，所以20元硬幣只在央行內部流通嗎？除了央行以外，還有誰看過？除了央行以外，大部分的人都沒看過20元的硬幣。主席有看過嗎？沒看過，我也沒看過。我想說這個應該是真的吧，這個貨幣是真的嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然是真的。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為民眾很少看到，現在市面上有6,183萬枚，六千多萬枚的20元硬幣，幾乎很少人有看到，這是不是只在央行內部流通的硬幣？只有你們看過。現在詐騙很多，現在如果店家收到這個，不會覺得這是詐騙嗎？可能是假錢，會不會是？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：我們很少人看過，所以我的意思是說……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，針對這個20元的硬幣，我是不是請我們發行局的局長來跟你報告？"],["陳委員玉珍：我是要請問您政策啦！這個當然很漂亮，做得很好，印得很漂亮啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是說，你們要推動這個硬幣再流通計畫嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，全世界2字頭的貨幣，流通都不是很好。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那我們為什麼要繼續發行？現在又走上電子支付時代……"],["楊總裁金龍：你看日本也是一樣的，倫敦也是，美元也是一樣……"],["陳委員玉珍：都已經知道其他各國都發行的流通認證不好了……"],["楊總裁金龍：但是不能因為它的流通少就不發行……"],["陳委員玉珍：那為什麼要發行？流通少為什麼要發行？發行給大家收藏嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：要給人家選擇啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：選擇？因為大家都不用啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：那也不是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：發行來讓大家典藏，發行來讓央行內部流通，我是問你政策啦！我對硬幣廠沒有……"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：你還要繼續發行嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：繼續。"],["陳委員玉珍：繼續發行？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，繼續。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你要做更多的宣導，不然大家以為是假的，很漂亮但以為是假的。"],["楊總裁金龍：要promotion，對、對、對，promotion、promotion。"],["陳委員玉珍：這跟電子支付時代有點背道而馳，謝謝！"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍召委，接著請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"1569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心啊如果你總你的預算被砍了砍可能到五成或將近六成我怎麼可能還來增加預算"},{"start":351.368,"end":374.759,"text":"這是我們現在共同遇到的難題但是我們會繼續努力捍衛要告訴市民這些預算我們拿來做什麼我們拿來支持教育尤其高等教育千萬不能被政治的惡鬥所犧牲接下來我要請臺灣大學的陳仁章校長部長我也要跟你關心的是我過去當議員的時候就很關心臺大的文化資產"},{"start":376.34,"end":403.893,"text":"那我甚至呢是我們審計部也有一棟就在我們附近宗教東路昭和樓日本時代的書店我甚至是內棟文資的提報人所以當時是我到市政府文資審議會去說明的那也感謝民間團體協助我們整理資料據我所知今年7月的時候監察院有一份調查報告是關於臺大的文化資產保存那我能不能請校長來回答說校長有沒有看過這份報告"},{"start":407.057,"end":429.913,"text":"報告委員我們校長因為現在有請假對他剛剛離開沒辦法因為學校沒關係有你代為公理那我想要講的是說我們臺大有70棟大樓是被列為歷史建物所以現在是在保護的這一段幾棟70棟70棟好這是列為文資的包含了古蹟及歷建是嗎是的是"},{"start":431.516,"end":458.907,"text":"那監察院的報告裡面給你們的建議是確實臺大的文資數量太為龐大那臺北市本來就是全臺灣古蹟最多的城市不是臺南是在我們臺北市那其中最多數量就在中正區也是我的選區了那臺大又是我母校所以我當然關心那總共呢臺北市537處的文化資產裡面超過十分之一都在臺大"},{"start":460.768,"end":484.521,"text":"那我們非常清楚你要去修復一個文資需要花費多少的時間及成本還包括後續的管理所以我目前看到的是我們台大每一年我們編列在修繕文資的經費目前每一年是編列多少能不能說明約是3000萬左右那每一年實際上是嚴重的不足實際上是嚴重不足"},{"start":488.176,"end":503.586,"text":"沒有錯我在看齁這個數量的你剛剛講的68處是歷屆文資嘛但是呢我們臺大的日本宿舍還沒有被提報的總共加起來有多少棟超過100棟超過100處啊所以這個我請部長回應齁部長"},{"start":511.57,"end":533.372,"text":"我看了監察院這個調查報告我也建議你們團隊有時間這個報告應該把它看完其實監委有給我們建議啦因為這個也不是教育部教育部一個單位我看也沒辦法處理這是一個地方政府都沒辦法負擔的這個責任所以呢監委給我們建議說請教育部"},{"start":533.973,"end":547.001,"text":"及文化部,因為我們文化部本來就有修復歷屆文資的計劃補助,不管是私有、民間或是公有的都有在補助。台大過去有一案是文化部補助,但是只有一案,顯然不夠。那內政部呢?"},{"start":549.423,"end":576.696,"text":"也有相關的一些法規例如說現在文資可能文資法也有人轉等等所以我希望教育部是可以找文化部跟內政部一起來討論不只是臺大其他的大學都有相關的負擔我們不要把這個修房子整修的這個負擔通通讓學校自己來承擔它有很多校務要去經營能不能教育部來協助找文化部、內政部一起來研討在審查預算之前給我一個初步對於法規的盤點"},{"start":578.494,"end":599.551,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個具有歷史性的這些文化資產我想以我們目前確實在大學端的這些文化資產的文化部他定有辦法但是我們不逃避責任因為在我過去擔任校長的時候確實我也整修過跟文化部所以我們教育部也可以先來賭注"},{"start":600.672,"end":620.002,"text":"教育部這邊我們未來我們來看學校端我們跟地方政府跟文化部還有學校我們共同來合作來保留補助是一定要的但是你還有相關的法律工具所以我看你們要總體有一個計畫出來不要說再發生像曹永和故居我個人是非常心痛"},{"start":621.322,"end":637.849,"text":"因為你少了前面的調查研究工作所以你送到文字會的時候當然它的歷史意義還沒有被呈現出來好那就希望我們接下來要跨部會來協助學校接下來我要請臺大醫院的院長吳明賢院長是副校長嗎也請留步"},{"start":646.718,"end":667.934,"text":"好這個部長我要關心的是在我的選區喔臺大醫院有北戶分院就在內江街跟康定路口那首先我要非常感謝因為在疫情的時候我整個區域內能夠收治確診同時又需要洗腎患者的就只有我們北戶分院我非常的感謝你們救了我們很多民眾的"},{"start":668.174,"end":670.115,"text":"主題是希望我們要把老年醫療跟長期照護可以合一一條龍,養護結合"},{"start":684.921,"end":708.135,"text":"院長我現在要關心的是你計劃核定的沒有因為我每天經過民眾都在忙啊你們就在我們社區旁邊你們現在這個本戶要先送計劃給臺大醫院嘛臺大醫院要送計劃給臺大臺灣大學嘛臺灣大學要送計劃給教育部嘛如果說未來需要國發會公建的補助的話還要再送給國發會嘛你們現在到底進度到哪裡了"},{"start":709.415,"end":738.203,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個事情因為臺灣已經早就是超高齡社會那20%超過20%是65歲以上的人口那在北部因為我們注意到萬華區其實超過25%所以我們很早就要建構一個老人醫學跟長照的一個一條龍的整合型特別是為什麼在北部他需要蓋第二道因為我們發現我們北部的護理支架"},{"start":739.163,"end":758.91,"text":"等候6個月所以我們已經這個計畫已經送到行政院那整個計畫還沒有完全回來不過其實我們希望國發會可以以前可以補足30%因為據說據說我現在拿到的是說只補23%但是我們醫院這個整個計畫是17.7億的醫院本身會出"},{"start":767.954,"end":792.57,"text":"總願會贊助9.9億元北戶婚宴本身會籌資2.49億所以希望政府可以給我們補助30%這個計畫的總經費是17.7億那院長你們家分院可以自籌到幾成我們自己籌7成你們籌7成啊好這個計畫已經送到教育部來了嘛是不是已經從臺南大學已經送到我們教育部了好那請這個請部長回答部長"},{"start":798.214,"end":813.568,"text":"這個我希望啊這個臺大醫院的北戶分院對我們社區以及對我們臺北市整體的老年醫院來講非常重要關鍵那據我所知過去這個公園光跑就跑了快半年所以我要拜託你們這個案子我們來大力支持可不可以"},{"start":815.527,"end":835.032,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們會協助臺大北戶分院來做一些詳細的規劃因為他們在中間的過程當中確實有經費的一些調整跟一些因應物條的部分有做一些修正那這個部分我們會後續回來協助跟支持好感謝謝謝主席各位請回部長校長請回謝謝吳佩奕委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時53分）謝謝主席，我請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好，抱歉！"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，今天我們是審查教育部的預算，那高等教育當然是我們教育部的重點業務，所以今天全臺灣國立大學的校長也都來到現場，齊聚在這裡，一起要來審查我們的高教預算。部長，因為過去我在臺北市議會，所以我們在審學校預算的時候，是國小、國中、高中的校長也會來向我們說明每一所學校的預算，其中大學過去就只有審查到一所臺北市立大學。是不是全臺灣除了市立大學以外，大部分我們高等教育的經費都是由中央的預算來支持的？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上以我們現在法令的規範，確實國立大學我們……但是因為它也有一些制度上的改變，過去是公務預算，現在是校務基金，所以政府基本上會根據過去學校的規模、員額跟教學研究上必須要的基本需求，我們會給予一些補助。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，不同的預算來源，但是主要是中央來支持。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：高等預算當然需要中央支持，我看到臺灣大學有帶頭來呼籲，希望我們高教前瞻要持續推動，也希望政府要加強對高等教育的投資，我看好幾所學校也都有回應、都有響應。我今天看我們預算書裡面高等教育這一目，今年的預算是1,228億元，明年我們會增加，增加了60億元，也就是會來到1,332億元，其他先不管，這個大概占教育部的單位預算七成。要給國立大學的補助裡面，明年的也會比今年度再增加13億元，總共是521億元。像我大學部的母校臺大分配到50億元，我碩士班的母校清華大學也會分配到21億元。但不只這些，因為其他還有計畫性的補助。","但是今天在這個地方，我必須要向大家來說明，也必須要開啟討論的是，上個禮拜也就在我們今天這個會議場所，國民黨主要去強推了財劃法的修法。在程序有疑慮的情況之下，當時就在范雲委員召委這個位置，財政委員會的國民黨召委陳玉珍就已經把這個版本送出委員會，甚至現在要排政黨協商。根據試算，現在送出委員會的這個財劃法修法的版本，會讓中央的整體預算短少了6,600億元。部長，我現在請問你，如果中央這個大水庫總預算少了6,600億元，教育部有沒有辦法，如同你現在在媒體所回應大學校長的，教育部對高等教育的支持預算會逐年來增加？部長，以你對你現在業務的了解，你認為如果中央的預算短少了六千多億元，你做得到逐年再去提升給高等教育的預算嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我剛才所提的當然基本上就是來自於我們現有制度經費上的分配。如果在總體的預算上，因為制度、規範改變了，那當然在對高等教育，不僅是高等教育，包括在各級教育上，經費當然一定會面臨一些挑戰……"],["吳委員沛憶：一定會面臨挑戰，甚至它就是一個非常巨大的衝擊。我直接就說了，總體預算短少6六千多億元，中央可以給教育部的預算絕對會減少。也就是你在砍我們總預算，你就在砍我們高等教育的預算，我們必須在這裡要有這樣的認知啊！十年樹木，百年樹人，教育經費是何等重要的事，我非常地心痛！","上個禮拜也就在這個會議場所，我想要來發言。我是臺北市選民選出來的民意代表，我必須要向市民報告現在我們的政府財政正在面臨什麼樣的危機，但是我連發言的機會都沒有。為什麼？我們現在使用的這個麥克風，在上個禮拜會議進行的時候，在野黨是把麥克風的電線拉掉，我連發言的機會都沒有。所以我今天一定要在這裡清楚地表示，我身為教委會的委員，我非常地支持，也要求教育部要來逐年提升對高等教育的預算支持，因為這是人才的培育。","臺灣的學術研究在國際上面有我們的競爭力，我們要支持。但是該我們捍衛預算的時候，我們要向國人說明清楚啊！不是政治歸政治，教育歸教育。我正擔心的就是，因為我還要爭取預算。部長，等一下我還要跟你爭取預算。我就擔心如果你的預算被砍了，可能砍到五成或將近六成，我怎麼可能還來增加預算？所以這是我們現在共同遇到的難題，但是我們會繼續努力捍衛。要告訴市民，這些預算我們拿來做什麼？我們拿來支持教育，尤其高等教育千萬不能被政治的惡鬥所犧牲。","接下來我要請臺灣大學的陳文章校長。部長，我也要跟你關心的是，我過去當議員的時候，就很關心臺大的文化資產。審計部有一棟，就在我們附近忠孝東路，昭和樓，日本時代的書店，我甚至是那棟文資的提報人，所以當時是我到市政府文資審議會去說明的，也感謝民間團體協助我們整理資料。據我所知，今年七月的時候監察院有一份調查報告，是關於臺大的文化資產保存，我能不能請校長來回答？請問校長有沒有看過這份報告？"],["丁副校長詩同：報告委員，我們校長因為現在有……"],["吳委員沛憶：請假？"],["丁副校長詩同：對，他剛剛離開，沒辦法，因為學校有活動。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒關係，由你代為說明。"],["丁副校長詩同：我想要講的是，我們臺大有70棟大樓是被列為歷史建物，所以現在在保護的這一棟是……"],["吳委員沛憶：幾棟？"],["丁副校長詩同：70棟。"],["吳委員沛憶：70棟？"],["丁副校長詩同：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：就是列為文資的，包含古蹟及歷建是嗎？"],["丁副校長詩同：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：監察院的報告裡面給你們的建議是，確實臺大的文資數量太為龐大。臺北市本來就是全臺灣古蹟最多的城市，不是臺南，是在臺北市，其中最多數量就在中正區，也是我的選區，那臺大又是我的母校，所以我當然關心。總共臺北市537處的文化資產裡面，超過1/10都在臺大。我們非常清楚，你要去修復一個文資需要花費多少的時間及成本，還包括後續的管理。所以我目前看到的是，臺大編列在修繕文資的經費目前每一年是編列多少？能不能說明？"],["丁副校長詩同：約略是3,000萬元左右。"],["吳委員沛憶：每一年？"],["丁副校長詩同：實際上是嚴重的不足。"],["吳委員沛憶：實際上是嚴重不足？沒有錯。我在看這個數量，你剛剛講的68處是歷建文資，但是臺大的日本宿舍還沒有被提報的總共加起來有多少棟？超過100棟。我請部長回應。","部長，我看了監察院的調查報告，我也建議你們團隊有時間的話，這個報告應該把它看完。其實監委有給我們建議，因為這個也不是教育部，教育部一個單位我看也沒辦法處理，這是一個地方政府都沒辦法負擔的責任。所以監委是建議請教育部跟文化部，因為文化部也本來就有修復歷建文資的計畫補助，不管是私有、民間或是公有的都有在補助。臺大過去有一案是文化部補助，但是只有一案，顯然不夠。內政部也有相關的一些法規，例如現在可能文資法也有容轉等等，所以我希望教育部可以找文化部跟內政部一起來討論。不只是臺大，其他的大學都有相關的負擔。我們不要把修房子、整修的負擔通通讓學校自己來承擔，它有很多校務要去經營。能不能教育部來協助，找文化部、內政部一起來研討，在審查預算之前給我一個對於法規的初步盤點？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心這些具有歷史性的文化資產，我想以我們目前在大學端的文化資產，文化部訂有辦法，但是我們不會逃避責任。因為在我過去擔任校長的時候，確實我也整修過，跟文化部一起處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以教育部也可以先來補助？"],["鄭部長英耀：教育部這邊，我們來看學校端，我們跟地方政府、文化部還有學校共同來合作、來保留……"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝部長。補助是一定要的，但是你還有相關的法律工具，所以我看你們總體要有一個計畫出來，不要再發生像曹永和故居的事，我個人是非常心痛，因為少了前面的調查研究工作，所以送到文資會的時候，當然它的歷史意涵沒有被呈現出來。好，那就希望接下來要跨部會來協助學校。","接下來我要請臺大醫院的吳明賢院長，副校長也請留步。院長，我要關心的是在我的選區臺大醫院有北護分院，就在內江街跟康定路口。首先我要非常感謝，因為在疫情的時候，我整個區域內能夠收治確診同時又需要洗腎患者的，就只有北護分院，我非常感謝你們救了我們很多民眾一命，他們家人至今都感謝你們。我知道北護分院現在要進行增建計畫，就是第二醫療大樓，主題是希望可以把老年醫療跟長期照護合一成為一條龍，養護結合，是不是這個樣子？"],["吳院長明賢：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長，我現在要關心的是，你們的計畫核定了沒有？因為我每天經過，民眾都在問啊！你們就在我們社區旁邊。現在北護要先送計畫給臺大醫院，臺大醫院要送計畫給臺灣大學，臺灣大學要送計畫給教育部。如果說未來需要國發會公建的補助的話，還要再送給國發會。你們現在到底進度到哪裡了？"],["吳院長明賢：謝謝委員關心這個事情，因為臺灣早就已經是超高齡社會，超過20%是65歲以上的人口。在北護，因為我們注意到萬華區其實超過25%，所以我們很早就要建構一個老人醫學跟長照一條龍的整合型。特別是為什麼在北護需要蓋第二大樓？因為我們發現北護的護理之家就等候了6個月，所以我們這個計畫已經送到行政院。整個計畫還沒有完全回來，不過其實我們希望國發會可以……以前可以補足30%，因為據說我現在拿到的是只補23%。這整個計畫是17.7億元，醫院本身會出，總院會贊助9.9億元，北護分院本身會籌資2.49億元，所以希望政府可以給我們補助30%。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個計畫的總經費是17.7億元？"],["吳院長明賢：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長你們分院可以自籌到幾成？"],["吳院長明賢：我們自己籌七成。"],["吳委員沛憶：你們籌七成啊？計畫已經從臺灣大學送到教育部了？"],["吳院長明賢：對，已經送過去了。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，那請部長回答。部長，臺大醫院北護分院對我們社區、對我們臺北市整體的老年醫院來講非常重要、關鍵。據我所知，過去這個公文光跑就跑了快半年了，所以我要拜託你們，這個案子我們來大力支持，可不可以？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，這個部分我們會協助臺大北護分院來做一些詳細的規劃，因為他們在中間的過程當中確實有經費的一些調整，以及因應物調的部分有做一些修正，這個部分我們後續會來協助跟支持。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，感謝。謝謝主席，各位請回。"],["主席：部長、校長請回，謝謝吳沛憶委員的質詢。","再來請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基\n金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基\n金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金；三、審查114年度行政法人國\n家運動訓練中心預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00006"}}},{"id":"156953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b5a05e45611c7b7befd7b6b5cb373b4ddea15901506589ece9aab6c45daf424f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:54:20 - 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有請部長委員好部長好我剛從財政委員會下來那今天財政委員會的專報是來針對就是美國川普當選之後那對我們整個前景的一個衝擊跟影響這很有趣因為川普一當選"},{"start":33.513,"end":34.894,"text":"公務及基金預算僅詢公務及基金預算"},{"start":56.289,"end":80.356,"text":"那我們也覺得好像也不是空穴來風因為他任命新的這個環保署長是反綠能的嘛那我們也看到他在第一次當選的時候他就立刻退出巴黎協定嘛他競選期間他有說如果他再當選還會再退出嘛所以種種這些跡象包括他未來他們的一些氣候法案"},{"start":80.936,"end":81.637,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":81.637,"end":82.017,"text":"經管會主委、央行他們都說"},{"start":101.713,"end":116.672,"text":"我們國家的這個綠能經濟的政策檢探的政策是對的方向那既定不會改變也覺得未來不會受到影響我就想請教第一個問題部長您覺得那些歐盟會被退出"},{"start":117.879,"end":137.639,"text":"是不會推出美國可能會暫時有一點影響不過目前是因為我們也非常深刻的研究了川普總統可能的這個政策的走向那我們認為是正向樂觀的因為其實他可能對巴黎協定有一點意見但是其實整個全世界的這個禁令的路上是非常筆直的而且"},{"start":138.2,"end":143.721,"text":"所以有沒有預算的一個支持其實反而是我們必須要關注的一個方向對不對我認為對台灣的利益來看的話我們還是需要跟美國做好一個好朋友所以我們未來的調整策略也會省時度式的來做該有的應對"},{"start":165.006,"end":182.218,"text":"好謝謝部長那我就要開始講了為什麼呢因為對於我們來講現在綠色經濟就是險學嘛那我們也希望說可以在我們的山林可以開始去種碳所以呢我們有很多的原住民族人"},{"start":183.398,"end":208.319,"text":"這兩三年他們也不斷的聽說未來碳有價的時代會來臨我們對於自己的自然碳會也覺得很有信心但是因為大家也不是很懂所以他們常常也面臨到企業來找他們要談合作可是現在是一個詐騙的時代嘛所以大家也都會很害怕因此我在8月2號的時候我有開了一個公聽會"},{"start":209.46,"end":227.236,"text":"就是讓我們的這一些企業跟我們的原鄉族人那麼能不能夠有一個原鄉碳會的ESG的公益平台那麼在這個當中其實我很高興因為後續有了一些迴響像是11月25號"},{"start":228.837,"end":236.543,"text":" bicyc, 臺灣吉寶結算所呢,他願意來支持這個原鄉碳匯ESG的平臺。所以呢,他們也找到了桃園復興區一個幾百公頃的地,要來跟他們去做一個NOU的簽署儀式,就是讓企業,然後臺灣吉寶結算所以及我們的族人"},{"start":250.874,"end":266.072,"text":"其作一個三方契約的一個NOU的簽署遺書那我也是在想說部長如果你有空有機會的話應該可以去給他們一下鼓勵那另外一個部分公聽會之後呢我們有一群"},{"start":266.713,"end":267.433,"text":"關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":287.759,"end":288.36,"text":"二、廣告中央政府總預算"},{"start":305.462,"end":319.903,"text":"大家都已經耀耀欲試可是很多的問題需要去確認特別是方法學的部分那在這邊我們也看到在去年的10月有發布一個溫室氣體自願減量的專案管理辦法"},{"start":321.866,"end":339.02,"text":"有公開了13類143項多元減量的方法那2025年呢也開始要來去做一個碳費的申請那2026就會來徵收我現在是想要問我們原鄉齁在這個自然碳費的部分"},{"start":339.821,"end":359.454,"text":"我們很想要去肯認嘛因為現在只有新植林只有濕地但是我們很關心竹林呢森林呢還有土地的管理方法呢像這一些我們的自然碳會才可能有一席之地嘛所以這個部分我想要了解現在的進度如何"},{"start":360.428,"end":382.239,"text":"報告委員這前面兩個方法已經公告了通過了吼那另外一個是我們環境部跟原民會跟農業部組成一個平台是不是請我們署長來跟他報告因為剛開過會好謝謝我們現在已經除了原本的植樹造林之外現在就是有竹林經營跟森林經營但是因為這些內容比較複雜所以環境部會把它做成懶人包"},{"start":382.679,"end":383.98,"text":"二、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案二、審查中華民國113年度"},{"start":399.329,"end":419.23,"text":"但我們也發現到說當然現在第一波堆的是重工業嘛但是國內外第三方驗證機構現在是不到15家而且這個驗證費用目前上路的這些所謂的重工業其實他們驗證費100萬對他們來講也沒有什麼可是我要說的是未來呢"},{"start":420.091,"end":420.471,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":440.666,"end":450.973,"text":"那這個部分查驗機構的成立新增查驗的項目增加人員的培訓好我們來看一下預算我這邊看到我們的溫室氣體管理基金目前114年從公務預算有撥補6.7億進來"},{"start":456.596,"end":467.662,"text":"但是我想先請教因為我們知道未來徵收的碳費呢會撥入到溫室氣體管理基金那請教一下部長如果2016年2026年你們預估會收多少進來大概60億左右"},{"start":472.885,"end":484.76,"text":"會有60億拿進來好那我看一下喔以這個目前114年撥補進來的6.7億齁放在人力培育的只有4469萬佔7將近8%那部長您覺得這樣夠嗎"},{"start":490.847,"end":514.847,"text":"這個當然現在因為我們還有一個是國安院也有一部分的經費啦所以當然現在還是不夠的我們希望我們看費的時候可以加強那我希望說未來我們2026年收進來這個溫管基金要做很多很多的事那我就是想要問部長這個溫管基金的分配還有它的用途誰可以參與決定為什麼我很關心因為我們有參與棄遷法的修法"},{"start":517.629,"end":545.481,"text":"把這個文室管理辦法變成了7000法之後法條有寫得很清楚政府與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會之相關權益應與原住民族共享所以呢我在這裡就是想要問一下部長您可不可以就是就您所知你們有沒有往這個利益共享的部分來去做一個這樣的規劃"},{"start":547.573,"end":549.015,"text":"利益共享的部分"},{"start":563.553,"end":590.107,"text":"我希望部長您可能要特別的來注意因為在這個部分包括未來這個審議他的機關學者專家代表原住民的代表我們希望說我們部長在推動這些碳會的計畫要重視原住民的權益跟參與希望我們有決策發言權也能夠參與這個很重要的這個邁向碳有價的時代近鄰談判的時代好不好"},{"start":593.189,"end":601.233,"text":"謝謝主席也希望就是給我在一週內能夠就我剛剛所講的來做一個說明謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1905,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時54分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好！我剛從財政委員會下來，今天財政委員會的專報是針對美國川普當選之後對我們整個前景的衝擊跟影響，這很有趣，因為川普一當選，COP29就上場，感覺上也很低迷，好像籠罩在川普當選的陰影，為什麼？因為很多科技工業大國都沒有參加嘛！這個部分大家就會說未來我們的碳政策會不會因為美國而有所改變？我們也覺得好像不是空穴來風，因為他任命新的環保署長是反綠能的，我們也看到他在第一次當選的時候就立刻退出巴黎協定，他競選期間說如果他再當選還會再退出，所以種種這些跡象，包括未來他們的一些氣候法案，看起來他都會把它給消除掉，所以面對未來整個關稅因應還有碳費這樣一個時代的來臨，我們都會很擔心。","我想先請教，因為剛才我們在財政委員會，金管會主委、央行他們都說我們國家的綠能經濟政策、減碳政策是對的方向，既定不會改變，也覺得未來不會受到影響，那我就想請教第一個問題，部長您覺得那些歐盟會不會退出？"],["彭部長啓明：歐盟是不會退出，美國可能會暫時有一點影響，不過目前因為我們也非常深刻研究了川普總統可能的政策走向，我們認為是正向樂觀的，因為其實他可能對巴黎協定有些意見，但是其實整個全世界這個淨零的路是非常筆直的，而且不會回頭的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，這是必須走的一條道路。"],["彭部長啓明：必須走，而且其實美國也因為這個減碳淨零，全世界氣候科技的投資都在美國，所以我們認為他不會放棄。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以有沒有預算的支持其實反而是我們必須要關注的一個方向，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：我認為對臺灣的利益來看，我們還是需要跟美國做好一個好朋友，所以我們未來的調整策略也會審時度勢來做該有的應對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。部長，那我就要開始講了，為什麼呢？因為對於我們來講現在綠色經濟就是顯學嘛，我們也希望可以在我們的山林開始去種碳，所以我們有很多原住民族人這兩三年來他們也不斷聽說未來碳有價的時代會來臨，我們對於自己的自然碳匯也覺得很有信心，但是因為大家也不是很懂，所以他們常面臨到企業來找他們談合作，可是現在是一個詐騙的時代嘛，所以大家也都會很害怕，因此我在8月2日有開了一個公聽會，就是讓這一些企業跟我們的原鄉族人能不能夠有一個原鄉碳匯ESG的公益平臺，在這當中其實我很高興，因為後續有了一些迴響，像11月25日臺灣集保結算所願意來支持這個原鄉碳匯ESG的平臺，所以他們也找到了桃園復興區一個幾百公頃的地，要來跟他們做一個MOU的簽署儀式，就是讓企業臺灣集保結算所以及我們的族人去做一個三方契約的MOU簽署儀式，我也在想部長如果有空、有機會的話應該可以去給他們鼓勵一下。","另外一個部分，公聽會之後我們有一群原鄉做產業、做企業的，他們成立了一個灣臺原住民淨零永續發展協會，內政部也即將核發他們協會的證照，他們想做什麼呢？他們想要來推動產業淨零，做相關的認證，他們也想做原住民的綠色產銷供需鏈，他們也想做一些原鄉綠能的自給率，例如小水力發電等等，然後讓產業可以永續、可以再升級。好，部長，我現在就是想問，因為大家都已經躍躍欲試，可是很多的問題需要去確認，特別是方法學的部分。在這邊我們也看到去年10月有發布一個溫室氣體自願減量專案管理辦法，公開了13類143項多元減量的方法，2025年也開始要做碳費的申請，2026就會來徵收。我現在是想要問，原鄉在自然碳匯的部分，我們很想要去肯認，因為現在只有新植林、只有濕地，但是我們很關心，竹林呢？森林呢？還有土地的管理方法呢？像這一些我們的自然碳匯才可能有一席之地，所以這個部分我想要了解現在的進度如何？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，前面兩個方法學已經公告了、通過了，另外一個是我們環境部跟原民會跟農業部組成一個平台，是不是請署長來報告，因為剛開過會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們現在除了原本的植樹造林之外，還有竹林經營跟森林經營，但是因為這些內容比較複雜，所以環境部會把它做成懶人包。另外因為還涉及到未來要有查驗人員，所以農業部也要去輔導，就是要有查驗人員，那我們也希望原民會能去推廣，以上報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝署長這麼說。因為所有的減量都需要驗證，我們也發現到現在第一波推的是重工業，但是國內外第三方驗證機構現在是不到15家，而且這個驗證費用對目前上路的這些所謂重工業，其實驗證費100萬對他們來說也沒有什麼。可是我要說的是，未來呢？未來呢？我們要面對這些。我有看到你們的專報有講，為了強化自願減量機制的規定，提高查驗機構的量能來滿足需求，你們有開設盤查作業查驗人員的訓練班，這個部分查驗機構的成立、新增查驗的項目、增加人員的培訓，我們來看一下預算。我這邊看到溫室氣體的管理基金目前114年從公務預算有撥補6.7億進來，但是我想先請教，因為我們知道未來徵收的碳費會撥入到溫室氣體的管理基金，請教部長，請問2026年你們預估會收多少進來？"],["彭部長啓明：大概60億左右。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：會有60億拿進來。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我看一下，以目前114年撥補進來的6.7億放在人力培育的只有4,469萬，占將近8%，部長您覺得這樣夠嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們還有一個是國環院也有一部分的經費，所以當然現在還是不夠的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不夠齁！"],["彭部長啓明：所以希望碳費的時候可以加強。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我就是要提醒，我希望未來2026年收進來，這個溫管基金要做很多很多的事，我想要問部長，溫管基金的分配跟用途誰可以參與決定？為什麼我很關心？因為我們有參與氣遷法的修法，把溫室管理辦法變成氣遷法之後，法條有寫得很清楚，政府與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內之自然碳匯，該區域內新增碳匯之相關權益應與原住民族共享。所以我在這裡就是想要問一下，部長，就您所知，你們有沒有往利益共享的部分來去做這樣一個規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員的指教，這個部分我們會來推動，因為原住民在氣候變遷裡面扮演一個很重要的角色。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，公正轉型。"],["彭部長啓明：但是怎麼做還有公正轉型這個部分，的確是要委員到時候來給我們指教。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，這個利益共享的部分我希望部長您可能要特別的注意，因為這個部分包括未來審議的機關學者代表、原住民的代表，我們希望部長在推動碳匯的計畫要重視原住民的權益跟參與，希望我們有決策發言權，也能夠參與這個很重要的邁向碳有價的時代。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：淨零碳排的時代，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝，謝謝委員的指教，我們會來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席，也希望在一週內就我剛才所講的來做一個說明。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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什麼?"},{"start":18.128,"end":38.64,"text":"我們這邊的建議就是說像能源啊、農產品啊、還有均衡啊這個是你個人的看法還是你已經跟政府討論過沒有,因為一般我們聽到這個會覺得有點本末倒置啦通常我們買東西是有需求才會買嘛沒有是為了要平衡順差才去買的嘛你這樣等於是不是有亂花錢,這樣子的建議你覺得適當嗎"},{"start":43.942,"end":61.514,"text":"我想就是說第一個我們台灣我們的進口就是大概就進口譬如像說是能源這個是我們的進口沒有這本來就有在做嘛這個是市場機制嘛現在就是有需要就去買但那個總裁的意思是說我們為了要平衡"},{"start":62.514,"end":81.758,"text":"貿易的順差逆差所以我們要特別去加大去跟他買那這中間可能就會買到一些我們現在可能不需要的東西有可能啦有可能那所以因為總裁您是這個在我們金融界講話一言九鼎你這樣講話今天整個媒體都震動了到底要買什麼應該評估說到底哪一些東西是應該買然後沒有去買的我們可以建議可以買這些我覺得這樣子的發言可能比較"},{"start":89.2,"end":114.786,"text":"我想委員講的也沒有錯不過我們只是說拋出這個議題而已我們也沒有就是說政府非這樣子不可不是啦因為你也是政府代表嘛你不能說我拋出一下政府討論看看然後如果沒有就沒這回事這也蠻奇怪的第二個你說鼓勵那個台積電到美國去投資然後這個也是平衡貿易順差密差方法但是你知不知道2022年張忠謀講一句話他說在"},{"start":118.747,"end":120.969,"text":"臺積電在美國投資是貴且浪費你有沒有站在臺積電的角度去思考這個問題不過你現在就是說臺積電他就去啦"},{"start":131.515,"end":154.831,"text":"台積電還是去啦去美國啦你是說誇增加嘛現在是說為了要去平衡貿易順差逆差增加投資嘛不過我也沒有說台積電要增加投資啦因為你講說台積電赴美投資現在問題是說要平衡順差逆差所以你講一些解方其中包括去對美的採購以及台積電赴美投資是在這個前提之下去講這些議題嗎我只會說我們的廠方"},{"start":156.832,"end":157.432,"text":"請財政部部長、莊部長"},{"start":188.561,"end":209.073,"text":"市長,請教一下,因為我們今年預估也會超增4000億的稅,但昨天聽說您講說是不會還稅於民,會拿去還債對吧?沒有還稅於民這個規劃,那我們會提早舉債我想請教一下,為什麼前幾年有超增都可以還稅於民,只有今天不可以?今年不可以,差別在哪?沒有前幾年,只有在112年的時候,因為112..."},{"start":212.395,"end":216.179,"text":"一年那個時候歷經這個疫情的一個影響然後我們經濟成長得不錯所以把經濟成長的果實以全民購買所以今年的經濟沒有啦部長今年的經濟成長跟之前一定也是差不多所以才會超徵那麼多稅嘛"},{"start":229.215,"end":251.146,"text":"跟委員報告那個時候歷經的我還是說是疫情的關係是疫情的關係所以才還稅於民是疫情的關係那時候疫情的時候全民其實有部分的產業受到一些衝擊但是我們因為防疫所以你還稅於民的目的是為了要刺激產業應該不是吧那個時候你們當時的行政院長不是這樣子講的喔"},{"start":253.046,"end":263.31,"text":"當初講吧就是說因為經濟有成長所以要講這個果實去跟大家分享沒有去扯到什麼產業受到衝擊這些喔所以同樣的條件整個是在義後經濟的一個那個整體計畫裡面的一項嘛那是一個義後經濟的一個我們有一個整體計畫裡面的一項就是對全民共享這個普發性的一項"},{"start":274.755,"end":294.242,"text":"應該我覺得那時候不是你講的這樣那時候說還稅於民是因為要把經濟的成長跟全民分享而且這本來就是超真的這本來就是超真的嘛那如果說按照你講的都不用還稅於民的話那你每一年通通都試算錯誤就好了啊然後每一年都超真啊超真就被你們政府決定怎麼用就怎麼用啊"},{"start":295.943,"end":309.73,"text":"因為你已經連續好幾年都超針了所以你認為說因為你預估跟你預估的時收跟你預估的有落差嘛那你們預估每一年都差到那麼幾千億你覺得是正常狀況嗎"},{"start":310.35,"end":330.852,"text":"我跟委員報告在國際間的文書差10%以內是絕對的一斤兩然後在10到20%之間是估計兩所以你覺得很正常就對我不能說很正常但是我們在估計的方式我們更穩定所以你覺得所以明年可能所以未來每一年都有可能會超增因為部長認為說在國際上都是正常現象我想委員不要這樣子"},{"start":331.593,"end":353.088,"text":"你的態度就是這樣嘛。理論上來講,如果部長你認為超徵有問題的話,你就會說好我們可能會經濟或是哪一個部分造成我們超徵,我們去調整。但你不是嘛。你講的就是說國際都這樣啊。所以你理所當然啊。那你如果理所當然的話,那你明年後年大後年通通都會超徵啊。不是嗎?那你剛剛就說國際都這樣嘛。這個都有直播的,大家都有看到嘛。"},{"start":358.411,"end":359.451,"text":"但部長的態度大家都看到了啦"},{"start":384.181,"end":405.554,"text":"就是這樣子啦,超徵4千億都是國際上都是正常狀況所以外界也不要批評財政部財政部已經做得很好了就是這種態度大家都看到部長找時間跟葉委員做溝通好不好謝謝葉言之委員那接著鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在吳思瑤委員吳思瑤"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1590,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時47分）你好，請央行的楊金龍總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：葉委員午安。"],["葉委員元之：總裁好。你有提到因為我們現在對美有順差，要透過跟美國買東西來平衡，請問是要買什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們這邊就是建議像能源、農產品、還有軍購……"],["葉委員元之：這是你個人的看法，還是你已經跟政府討論過了？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們……"],["葉委員元之：因為一般我們聽到這個，都覺得有點本末倒置，通常我們買東西，是有需求才會買嘛！沒有是為了要平衡順差才去買的嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["葉委員元之：你這樣是不是等於有亂花錢，這樣的建議你覺得適當嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想第一個，我們臺灣的進口，譬如像能源是我們的進口……"],["葉委員元之：不是，這本來就有在做，那個都是市場機制，就是有需要就去買。總裁的意思是說，我們為了要平衡貿易的順差、逆差，所以我們要特別去加大去跟他買，這中間可能就會買到一些我們現在可能不需要的東西。"],["楊總裁金龍：有可能。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！總裁在我們金融界講話一言九鼎，你今天這樣講，整個媒體都震動了，到底要買什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：應該評估到底哪些東西應該買，然後沒有去買的，我們可以建議買這些，我覺得這樣子的發言比較……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員講的也沒有錯，不過我們只是拋出這個議題而已，我們也沒有說政府非這樣不可。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！因為你也是政府代表嘛！你不能說我拋出一下，政府討論看看，如果沒有就沒這回事，這也滿奇怪的。第二個你說鼓勵台積電到美國去投資，這也是平衡貿易順差、逆差的方法。但是你知不知道，2022年張忠謀講一句話，他說台積電在美國投資貴且浪費，不知道你有沒有站在台積電的角度去思考這個問題？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過現在台積電還是去啦！"],["葉委員元之：你是說增加嘛！現在是說為了要去平衡貿易增加投資嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我也沒有說台積電要增加投資啦！"],["葉委員元之：因為你說台積電赴美投資，問題是要平衡順差、逆差，所以你講一些解方，其中包括對美的採購，以及台積電赴美投資，是在這個前提之下你講這個議題嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我只是說，我們的廠商……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得尊重台積電啦，好不好？政府不要去引導台積電到底應該做什麼事情，畢竟是我們的護國神山。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我剛剛沒有說台積電要持續去那邊投資，我只是說我們的廠商可以考慮到美國去投資。"],["葉委員元之：OK，好，總裁謝謝。麻煩請財政部部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：請教一下，我們今年預估也會超徵4,000億的稅，但是昨天聽說你講不會還稅於民，會拿去還債對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有還稅於民這個規劃，我們會減少舉債、增加還債。"],["葉委員元之：我想請教一下，為什麼前幾年有超徵都可以還稅於民，只有今年不可以，差別在哪裡？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有前幾年……"],["葉委員元之：前幾年有啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：只有112年的時候，因為111年歷經疫情的影響，然後我們經濟成長得不錯，所以把經濟成長的果實與全民共享……"],["葉委員元之：所以今年的經濟……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以就普發6,000元。"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！部長，今年的經濟成長跟之前一定也是差不多，所以才會超徵那麼多稅嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，那時候歷經……"],["葉委員元之：所以這是疫情的關係……"],["莊部長翠雲：我還是說明因為那一年的關係，所以把經濟成長成果跟全民分享。"],["葉委員元之：是疫情的關係，所以才還稅於民？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["葉委員元之：是疫情的關係？"],["莊部長翠雲：疫情的時候全民其實有部分的產業受到一些衝擊，但是我們因為防疫做得很好，使得經濟成長好……"],["葉委員元之：所以你還稅於民的目的是為了要刺激產業，應該不是吧？你們當時的行政院院長不是這樣講的，當初的講法就是說因為經濟有成長，所以要將這個果實去跟大家分享。"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！全民共享。"],["葉委員元之：沒有去扯到什麼產業受到衝擊這些喔！所以同樣的條件……"],["莊部長翠雲：這是整個當時疫後經濟整體計畫裡面的一項，那是一個疫後經濟，我們有一個整體計畫裡面的一項，就是對全民共享普發現金。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得那時候不是你講的這樣，那時候說還稅於民是因為要把經濟的成長跟全民分享，因為這本來就是超徵的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["葉委員元之：這本來就是超徵的嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：就是全民共享普發現金。"],["葉委員元之：如果說按照你講的都不用還稅於民的話，那你每一年統統都試算錯誤就好了，然後每年都超徵，超徵就被你們政府決定怎麼用就怎麼用。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，沒有什麼超徵……"],["葉委員元之：因為你已經連續好幾年都超徵了……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為稅的每一塊錢都是依法課徵的……"],["葉委員元之：實收跟你預估的有落差嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，有落差。"],["葉委員元之：那你們預估每一年都差到幾千億，你認為是正常狀況嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，在國際間的文書，差10%以內是絕對的精良，在10%至20%之間是估算良好……"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得很正常就對了。"],["莊部長翠雲：我不能說很正常……"],["葉委員元之：那你扯國際幹嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：但是我們現在估計的方式，我們……"],["葉委員元之：所以明年可能……"],["莊部長翠雲：我只是把國際上的……"],["葉委員元之：所以未來每一年都有可能會超徵，因為部長認為這在國際上都是正常現象。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員不要這樣子……"],["葉委員元之：你的詢答態度就這樣嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：我只是說國際上的……"],["葉委員元之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12:49:22","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金。\n三、審查114年度行政法人國家運動訓練中心預算案。\n四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案。\n（僅進行詢答，相關預算提案請於11月20日下午2時前提出）\n【11月11日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T12:38:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T12:49:22+08:00","duration":676,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.30096875,"end":3.9797187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.72221875,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.52034375000001,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.23034375,"end":173.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.07971875,"end":218.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.41034375,"end":237.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.25534375,"end":340.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.80471875,"end":502.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.78784375000004,"end":502.83846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.90596875000006,"end":666.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.10784375,"end":671.4197187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.271,"end":19.348,"text":"謝謝應該不用請部長了我想今天是非常的難得我們一年只有一次所有大學校長都來今天我想要針對大學法大學治理20年沒有大修跟校長交流溝通"},{"start":20.069,"end":46.969,"text":"那所以待會會有請校長舉下手那所以就是那大家可以繼續吃飯沒關係那為什麼我今天想要質詢這個主題主要是上一屆我們教育文化委員會那如果校長有印象的話曾經就是三黨就是都有共識通過大學法的修正版本那當時把校務會議做了一些調整讓學生的比例從現在的十分之一的"},{"start":47.469,"end":50.833,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功"},{"start":65.291,"end":86.04,"text":"其實我覺得這段時間以來教育部我們也跟教育部講說要跟大學校長多溝通教育部也辦了非常多的座談會我們昨天教育委員也辦了一個公聽會請到非常多的校長還有公立大學校長協會的代表還有私立大學校長協會的代表所以我想今天也藉這個機會能夠跟校長一起溝通"},{"start":91.062,"end":92.284,"text":"學生時代參與學生自治"},{"start":108.661,"end":112.045,"text":"全國學生自治會針對學生會的調查今天想針對其中幾個問題也問請教大學校長的意見"},{"start":130.162,"end":131.683,"text":"貴校的校務會議記錄,會後有無公開上網。有公開上網的校長可以舉手嗎?"},{"start":155.279,"end":158.962,"text":"請問校長,貴校有沒有明定保障師生索取校務資訊的辦法或機制?您知道有的請舉手"},{"start":174.153,"end":175.374,"text":"第三貴校的校務會議學生代表是否有超過10%?第四項"},{"start":196.916,"end":201.381,"text":"貴校是否有幫學生會代收會費?貴校校務會下有無設監督財務委員會"},{"start":218.899,"end":227.566,"text":"校務會議選出委員會是監督才有的有的話不錯有大概4、5位校長6位校長請舉手我針對這五個問題以下回應為什麼要問這五個問題因為這都是師生很關心的問題第一個"},{"start":238.374,"end":253.881,"text":"我們調查全國30個學生會有八成的學生會表示他們索取校務資訊曾經遇到困難他們也表達還是有很多學校沒有定期公開校務會議的記錄"},{"start":255.802,"end":281.151,"text":"那剛剛沒有舉手的有舉手的非常肯定沒有舉手的我想提醒您我們雖然這個大學法已經很老舊可是它現行的39條就規定大學對校務資訊除依法應與保密者外以主動公開為原則並得應人民申請提供之然後大學法施行細則這個教育部要管控的還有談到說"},{"start":283.092,"end":308.382,"text":"一、39條各校應訂定校務資訊公開之事項方式及人民申請提供之程序如果我們這個人民連學校的師生都沒有這個程序的話其他的人民就更沒有了所以剛剛很肯定有舉手的就是貴校您知道貴校有公開申請的這個程序的話我覺得非常好那也提醒校長們為什麼我剛剛問這一題也肯定剛剛有舉手的學校"},{"start":312.263,"end":337.957,"text":"這次關於校務資訊目前非常高的學生會也有很多的老師表達資訊非常的不公開可是我們大學法跟施行細則中其實都有明定以公開而且是主動公開為原則第二個學生參與的部分我們在調查的其實大家回來看大學法15條學生代表應經選舉產生"},{"start":340.919,"end":365.058,"text":"人數不得少於全體會議的十分之一所以也要提醒大家十分之一其實是樓地板那剛剛有舉手的超過十分之一的我非常的肯定譬如說我昨天公聽會也聽到中山大學李志朋校長分享他們的比例是10.8也超過這個底線那東海大學也跟我們分享他們學生比例已經達到九分之一"},{"start":365.798,"end":391.213,"text":"我覺得因為大學法設定的十分之一是底線所以各校主動增加的我覺得都是好事當然就是我們昨天的高校公聽會也有校長表達而且這是我們經常聽到的就是大學學生自治參與學生關心校務的各校程度不一甚至會有學生自治組織留會選不出人的狀況"},{"start":392.674,"end":411.282,"text":"那為什麼學生不願意參與就是校會跟學校的公共事務或者是甚至學生自治組織我覺得有很多的原因那昨天有人說可能是覺得參與也沒有什麼用處那有很多那其中有一個原因那我個人認為"},{"start":412.302,"end":440.393,"text":"是因為學生會的財務自主性不足我們如果以英國的學生會學校甚至把活動中心交給學生來營運甚至也把課外活動的經費是學生會來處理可是相比之下我們看一下臺灣的學生會剛剛其實有蠻多人沒有舉手是根據教育部的調查肯定教育部持續做這個全國大專校院學生會的概況調查"},{"start":442.294,"end":450.578,"text":"這調查你可以看到不分公司力有21%的學校完全不願意幫學生會代收會費然後有16.1%的僅願意協助代收新生的會費"},{"start":459.662,"end":467.809,"text":"學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權學生並沒有行政權"},{"start":484.764,"end":501.732,"text":"有應要的部分所以我想這個校長也可以多看一下這方面的資訊那我們如果不願意協助學生然後又說他們不參與然後不願意提高學生參與的權益保障的話我想會是一個惡性循環不是一件好事"},{"start":503.304,"end":504.706,"text":"校務會議的調查有9成學生會認為校務會議的問責及監督功能有待改進"},{"start":522.583,"end":540.177,"text":"學生會認為校務會議問責跟監督功能有待改進,而且是近九成有半數人認為學校的財務資訊不夠公開透明我還是要肯定一些學校,譬如說政治大學校務會議就下設財務監督委員會"},{"start":543.679,"end":568.028,"text":"讓校務會可以直接監督校方的財務使用但我想就是這校務會大家覺得沒有辦法扮演監督的功能也是讓我們教育文化的委員經常收到學生的陳情老師的陳情而且都是代表性的組織不管是學校的工會或者是學校的學生會因為他們覺得既有的管道其實都非常的不暢通"},{"start":569.428,"end":592.987,"text":"以上就是為什麼我們上一屆會推動大學法改革因為時間的緣故我也想提醒校長們我一定會幫大家爭取高教的經費今天非常多人講我們要進入百大、五百大可是我們的經費跟日本、新加坡等比起來一個學生得到的經費太少了私立大學更是窘礦"},{"start":594.148,"end":616.827,"text":"我一定會幫大家爭取更多的教育經費因為我覺得教育人才就是我們未來的國力是非常的重要因為是國家投資在我們下一代上面的可是一個好大學一定要保障重視利害關係人的參與如果我們看國際頂尖大學也不用到頂尖歐盟的平均的大學的校務"},{"start":617.949,"end":632.307,"text":"會議學生的比例是四分之一上一屆我們通過的五分之一其實已經低於歐盟的平均了當然我同意大家講的我們要漸進改革"},{"start":632.768,"end":650.885,"text":"所以我今天就是呼籲校長們一起參與這個討論我相信校長的觀點非常的重要那校長的意見教育部也正在詢問中那我非常的對我們現任部長有很高的期待因為他很難得是高教出身而且擔任過大學校長"},{"start":651.645,"end":665.452,"text":"希望在他任內我們能夠一起完成這個重要的大學治理結構20年沒有好好處理的一個改變謝謝校長們吃便當還聽我講話感謝大家我們一起加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時38分）謝謝。我想應該不用請部長了，今天非常的難得，我們一年只有一次是所有的大學校長都來，今天我想要針對攸關大學治理的大學法20年沒有大修來跟校長交流溝通，所以待會兒會請校長舉一下手，大家可以繼續吃飯沒關係。為什麼我今天想要質詢這個主題？如果校長們有印象的話，主要是在上一屆的教育及文化委員會當中，曾經三黨都有共識通過大學法的修正版本，當時把校務會議做了一些調整，讓學生的比例從現在十分之一的地板，提高到五分之一，可是後來校長公開表達因為在整個大學法修法的過程好像都沒有機會表達意見，所以後來這個版本雖然得到三黨共識，但卻沒有進入二、三讀。這段時間以來，我們也跟教育部說要跟大學校長多溝通，教育部也辦了非常多的座談會，昨天教文委員會也辦了一個公聽會，邀請到非常多的校長、公立大學校長協會的代表以及私立大學校長協會的代表，所以我想今天也藉這個機會能夠跟校長們一起溝通。","首先，因為我自己是出身高教，在大學教書超過10年，過去在學生時代我也參與學生自治，所以一直都特別關注大學跟高教治理的問題。上個禮拜我特別跟學生團體公布本席辦公室與全國學生自治會針對學生會的調查，因為我們已經有學生會的資料，不知道校長有沒有機會看到這個新聞的內容，所以今天想針對其中幾個問題也來請教大學校長的意見。我這邊有五個問題，校長們邊吃飯沒關係，這些問題都很簡單。想請問校長，如果以下這個問題你的答案是肯定的，就請舉一下手，只有五個問題而已，所以很簡單。第一個問題：貴校的校務會議會議紀錄會後有無公開上網？有公開上網的校長可以舉手嗎？好，現在看起來好像大約三分之二，所以有三分之一可能不知情或不了解。好，請放下，謝謝。第二個，請問校長，貴校有沒有明定保障師生索取校務資訊的辦法或機制？您知道有的請舉手好嗎？這個就非常少，現在看起來不到10位。好，請放下，謝謝。第三個，貴校的校務會議學生代表是否有超過10%？有超過的請舉手。沒有很多，但是很高興現場目光看過去大約有一半，非常好，很肯定你們。第四個，貴校是否有幫學生會代收會費？您知道有的請舉手。這個好像非常少，現場看起來不到10個學校舉手，謝謝您。最後一個應該非常少，但是有學校有，貴校校務會議下有無設監督財務的委員會？就是校務會議選出委員會是監督財務的，有的話請舉手。不錯，大概有五、六位校長舉手，謝謝你們。","針對這五個問題，以下我來回應為什麼要問這五個問題，因為這都是師生很關心的問題。第一個，我們調查全國30個學生會，有八成的學生會表示他們索取校務資訊曾經遇到困難，他們也表達還是有很多學校沒有定期公開校務會議的紀錄，剛剛有舉手的我非常肯定，沒有舉手的我想提醒您，雖然大學法已經很老舊，可是現行第三十九條就規定：「大學對校務資訊，除依法應予保密者外，以主動公開為原則，並得應人民申請提供之。」然後大學法施行細則還有談到依第三十九條，各校應訂定校務資訊公開之事項、方式及人民申請提供之程序。如果連學校的師生都沒有這個程序的話，其他的人民就更沒有了，所以剛剛很肯定有舉手的，就是您知道貴校有公開申請的程序的話，我覺得非常好，同時也提醒校長們為什麼我剛剛要問這一題，在此也肯定剛剛有舉手的學校，這是關於校務資訊，目前也有很多老師表達資訊非常的不公開，但其實在大學法跟施行細則中都有明定以公開而且是主動公開為原則。","第二個是學生參與的部分，其實大家回來看大學法第十五條，學生代表應經選舉產生，人數不得少於全體會議人數的十分之一。所以也要提醒大家，十分之一其實是樓地板，剛剛有舉手超過十分之一的，我非常的肯定，譬如在昨天的公聽會我也聽到中山大學李志鵬校長分享他們的比例是10.8%，已經超過這個底線；東海大學也跟我們分享他們的學生比例已經達到九分之一。我覺得因為大學法設定的十分之一是底線，所以各校主動增加的我覺得都是好事，當然在昨天的高教公聽會當中，也有校長表達，而且這是我們經常聽到的，就是大學學生自治參與、學生關心校務的各校程度不一，甚至會有學生自治組織流會、選不出人的狀況，為什麼學生不願意參與校務會議及學校的公共事務甚至是學生自治組織？我覺得有很多原因，昨天有人說可能是覺得參與也沒有什麼用處，但其中有一個原因，我個人認為是因為學生會的財務自主性不足。如果以英國的學生會為例，學校不只把活動中心交給學生營運，甚至課外活動的經費也是由學生會來處理。相比之下，我們看一下臺灣的學生會，剛剛其實有滿多人沒有舉手，根據教育部的調查，本席肯定教育部持續做全國大專校院學生會的概況調查，從這個調查可以看到不分公私立，有21%的學校完全不願意幫學生會代收會費，有16.1%的學校僅願意協助代收新生的會費。其實學生並沒有行政權，如果學校連代收都不願意代收的話，接近4%的學校沒有完整代收學生會會費，學生自治組織如果還要自己籌錢、自己募款的話，我想為大家做事……就像中央政府不用自己去賺錢，就是有應要的部分，所以我想校長也可以多看一下這方面的資訊，如果我們不願意協助學生，然後又說他們不參與，而且不願意提高學生參與的權益保障的話，我想會是惡性循環，這不是一件好事。","再來就是關於剛剛講的校務會議的部分，根據我們針對30所學校學生會的調查，有九成的學生會認為校務會議的問責跟監督的功能有待改進，這個比例真的非常高，到底為什麼學生會認為校務會議問責跟監督功能有待改進，而且是近九成？有半數的人認為學校的財務資訊不夠公開透明，我還是要肯定一些學校，譬如說政治大學，校務會議就下設財務監督委員會，讓校務會議可以直接監督校方的財務使用。大家覺得校務會議沒有辦法扮演監督的功能，教育及文化委員會的委員也經常收到學生及老師的陳情，而且都是代表性的組織，不管是學校的工會或者是學校的學生會，因為他們覺得既有的管道非常不暢通。","以上就是為什麼我們上一屆會推動大學法改革的原因，因為時間的緣故，我也想提醒校長們，我一定會幫大家爭取高教的經費，今天非常多人講我們要進入百大、五百大，可是我們的經費跟日本、新加坡等國家比起來，一個學生得到的經費太少了，私立大學更是窘迫，我一定會幫大家爭取更多的教育經費，因為我覺得教育人才就是我們未來的國力，這非常的重要，因為是國家投資在我們下一代上面的。一個好大學一定要保障、重視利害關係人的參與，如果我們看國際頂尖大學，其實也不用到頂尖，以歐盟平均的大學的校務會議而言，學生的比例是四分之一，這些資料在網站上都有。上一屆我們通過的五分之一，其實已經低於歐盟他們的平均了，當然我同意大家講的我們要漸進改革，所以我今天就是呼籲校長們一起參與這個討論，我相信校長的觀點非常的重要，關於校長的意見，教育部也正在詢問中。我對於現任部長有非常高的期待，因為他很難得是高教出身，而且擔任過大學校長，希望在他任內我們能夠一起完成重要的大學治理結構20年沒有好好處理的改變。謝謝校長們吃便當還聽我講話，感謝大家，我們一起加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲召委的質詢。"],["主席（范委員雲）：下一位請陳昭姿委員質詢，同時也謝謝陳秀寳委員代主持。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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»: 呃,這個應該是旅館"},{"start":85.229,"end":110.134,"text":"對嘛,我們一般人都覺得是旅館現場在吃便當大家也可以看一下這應該是旅館可是這就是當年的美麗丸它現在被台東縣政府認定為文教設施所以我很開心聽到部長早上您已經先對媒體說明了文教設施會收回來由中央作為審慎的評估我覺得這非常重要但是我還是要跟部長討論後續我知道你們說明年底才會有一些公告"},{"start":110.854,"end":111.435,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":111.435,"end":132.831,"text":"您們應該也會跟地方政府討論但是我只是要指出在這樣子案例的現場我們看到的是地方政府的態度跟他們的專業度不足的問題以剛剛我們回到前一張部長你說那是旅館我也認為它是旅館可是台東縣政府說它是文教設施有沒有看到標題叫做公文教用途然後呢它租期42年"},{"start":134.452,"end":161.173,"text":"那以新台幣先以新台幣6.29億元用台中縣政府的錢先買回來再租出去42年然後他說啊我租出去的這42年未來可以收進來6億所以可以到達一個財政的平衡部長你不用擔心我們要問這個案子我只是要讓你知道說你早上的宣誓其實是對的因為地方政府確實在做環評的時候不知道他是什麼樣的心態也不知道他是什麼樣的態度就做成了這樣的決議所以"},{"start":161.813,"end":177.593,"text":"我很怕美麗灣案件再次重演所以我要拜託部長您要有所堅持如同您說的你都認為它是旅館了但是你知道嗎文教用途的環評跟旅館的環評標準是不一樣的旅館的環評是一公頃以上就要環評"},{"start":178.234,"end":203.253,"text":"可是如果是文教設施是5公頃以上所以如果差別這麼大你可以想像地方政府他有非常多的漏洞可以鑽如果他想要圖利廠商我必須要做出這麼嚴重的指控因為當年美麗灣在抗議的時候當時我就住在花蓮我們非常多花洞的好朋友繼續去抗議但是沒想到他現在變成這個樣子我覺得非常的難過所以我請部長在後續你們在公布相關法規之前非常多地方的聲音要聽見民間團體的聲音要聽見"},{"start":206.135,"end":215.96,"text":"剛陳穎委員也說我們到世界上去開會的時候原住民的聲音要被聽見花蓮跟台東是有最多原住民的地方而他們的居住經驗他們的生活嚮往並沒有被縣市政府聽見這個時候環境部應該要有所角色對嗎對沒錯這個我們會把它考慮進來好那謝謝部長來我們來看下一個案例"},{"start":227.425,"end":253.832,"text":"這是花蓮的193縣道當年在進行環評的時候最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議根據過去的案例通常在閉門會議的時候行政團體行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去只留下媒體做記錄這個可能是大家普遍可以接受的現象但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了成為真正的閉門會議"},{"start":255.732,"end":281.287,"text":"所以後來呢花蓮193就過了就產生我們後續看到很多現象所以部長我只是要告訴你你雖然早上把旅館跟文教設施收進來了但是會有我剛剛說的那些問題但是像花蓮193限到這個事情我們當年所有的論述就是他跟海洋之間的關係他跟花蓮人生活人當地之間的關係都沒有被納入考量這時候如果中央有積極的配套跟角色"},{"start":282.167,"end":310.575,"text":"與您的專業度帶進地方我認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切而且更符合大家對於生活的嚮往那所以這邊我想要積極的提出雖然你們說你們在明年年底才會做出相關預告但是我認為有沒有機會你們在相關人員的訓練或者是委員的遴選民眾的參與機制明確的審查程序還有不同項目的指引我認為都要積極的做出相應的標準我剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例部長你怎麼看"},{"start":311.377,"end":337.071,"text":"好委員這個您的指教這個部分我們會來都可以做得到我們會來推動這個事情好也就是說中央當然有中央的權責然後也有中央的專業但是回到了地方上如果地方的縣市政府他沒有你們這樣的指引他可能用我剛剛說的非常低的標準然後非常草率的程序甚至是不公開不透明這個狀態我們就會可能一再一再發生在地方上的這種環境評估之後發生的"},{"start":340.072,"end":340.733,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":340.733,"end":342.575,"text":"因為你們如果不做出相關指引給地方政府參考,他們依然會繼續亂搞。"},{"start":361.182,"end":361.703,"text":"謝謝陳培宇委員接下來請紅毛"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1830,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時37分）陳瑩委員生日快樂。謝謝主席，有請環境部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，現在已經中午，今天早上您接受記者詢問的時候，關於環評的事情，您已經表態了，您說旅館、光電、文教全由中央審查。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於這個說法，您可不可以說一下為什麼會有這個改變？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我上任不到6個月，環評的部分，我參與的時間可能沒那麼多，我相信很多事情上半年的時候都有討論很多了，所以我沒有參與很多，可能沒有完全了解。當然，這個法令預告出來的時候，的確引發社會很大的討論，所以我去了解之後，也有和同仁討論，其實我們一步、一步來，畢竟旅館的部分已經先做了，但是包含文教設施、光電，因為它是不一樣的，我很嚴格的檢視，所以後來我完全了解之後，今天就透過委員會宣布把這三項全面收回來。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長的調整。請問一下部長，這張照片，你覺得是旅館還是文教設施？"],["彭部長啓明：這個應該是旅館。"],["陳委員培瑜：對嘛！一般人都覺得是旅館。現場在吃便當的各位也可以看一下，這應該是旅館，就是當年的美麗灣案，可是它現在被臺東縣政府認定為文教設施。所以本席很開心聽到部長早上對媒體的說明，文教設施的部分會收回來由中央審慎評估，本席覺得這非常重要，但本席還是要和部長討論後續的問題。本席知道你們明年底才會公告，而且你們應該也會和地方政府討論，但是本席要指出的是，在這樣的案例現場，我們看到的是地方政府的態度，和他們專業度不足的問題。","我們回到前一張。部長，你說那是旅館，本席也認為它是旅館，可是臺東縣政府說它是文教設施。你們有沒有看到標題？它叫做供文教用途。它的租期是42年，臺東縣政府先以新臺幣6.29億元買回來，再租出去42年，他們說租出去42年，未來可以收進來6億元，所以可以達到財政平衡。","部長，你不用擔心，本席並沒有要問這個案子，本席只是要讓你知道，你早上的宣示是對的，因為地方政府在做環評的時候，不知道他們是什麼樣的心態，也不知道是什麼樣的態度，結果做成這樣的決議。因為本席很怕美麗灣案件再次重演，所以本席要拜託部長，您要有所堅持，如同您說的，你也認為它是旅館。但是你知道嗎？文教用途的環評和旅館的環評標準是不一樣的，旅館是1公頃以上就要環評，可是文教設施則是5公頃以上，如果差別這麼大，你可以想像地方政府有非常多漏洞可以鑽。","如果他們想要圖利廠商，本席必須做出這麼嚴重的指控，因為當年抗議美麗灣案的時候，本席就住在花蓮，有非常多花東的好朋友去抗議，沒想到現在變成這個樣子，本席覺得非常難過。所以本席要請部長協助，後續你們公布相關法規之前，有非常多地方的聲音，你們要聽見，民間團體的聲音也要聽見，剛剛陳瑩委員也說了，我們到世界上開會的時候，原住民的聲音要被聽見，花蓮和臺東是有最多原住民的地方，可是他們的居住經驗、生活想望，並沒有被縣市政府聽見，這個時候環境部應該要有角色，對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯，我們會把它考慮進來，謝謝委員的指教。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。我們來看下一個案例，這是花蓮的193縣道，當年進行環評的時候，最後一個階段是所謂的閉門會議，根據過去的案例，通常在閉門會議的時候，行政團體、行政官員都會把民間團體趕出去，只留下媒體做紀錄，這是大家普遍可以接受的。但是當年的花蓮193縣道在最後環評會議的階段把記者也趕出去了，成為真正的閉門會議，所以後來花蓮193縣道案就通過了，結果產生我們後續看到的很多現象。","部長，本席只是要告訴你，雖然你早上把旅館和文教設施的環評權限收回來，但是一樣會有本席剛剛說的那些問題，像花蓮193縣道，我們當年的所有論述就是它和海洋之間的關係、它和花蓮當地人生活之間的關係，但是都沒有被納入考量。這時候，如果中央有積極的配套和角色，把你們的專業度帶進地方，本席認為會讓所有的環評變得更適切，而且更符合大家對生活的想望。","所以本席積極建議，雖然你們說明年年底才會做出相關預告，但是在相關人員的訓練或者委員的遴選、民眾的參與機制、明確的審查程序，還有不同項目的指引，本席認為都要積極做出相應的標準。本席剛剛已經舉了其中兩個案例，部長，你怎麼看？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，關於您的指教，我們都可以做到，我們會推動這個事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。也就是說，中央當然有中央的權責，也有中央的專業，但是回到地方，如果地方縣市政府沒有你們的指引，他們可能就會像本席剛剛說的，以非常低的標準、非常草率的程序審查，甚至是不公開、不透明的狀態，我們就可能一再、一再發生在地方環境評估之後的衝突，我們不樂見這些衝突，我們歡迎開發，但我們不樂見這樣的衝突，或者是不公開、不透明的情況。","所以部長，你覺得有沒有機會在12月10日預告時間截止之前再做調整？還是因為你們會再做調整，所以這個時間也可以往後？如果你們不做出相關指引給地方政府參考，他們依然會繼續亂搞。"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個背後有一個指引，它會比較複雜一點。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們那個預告裡面最核心的三項，我都收回了，所以我覺得還有很大的調整空間，我們會儘快推動這個事情，會再做修正。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，這個時間本席可以調整，但是相關的指引，本席認為還是要做，我們辦公室也會積極和環境部討論，希望這樣的事情不要再發生。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒有問題，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 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:"大家在熬夜吧?應該沒有熬夜,因為那邊也是有睡覺,因為他們只有時差大概5個小時,4個小時,然後那大概工作到晚上8、9點左右就結束,中午開始工作。感覺大家都很有那個熱忱。"},{"start":205.933,"end":225.013,"text":"有有有那根據本辦的了解齁這次主席呢是亞塞拜然的這個生態與自然資源部的部長那除了部長層級之外呢有其他國家的領導人會出席嗎有非常多但是沒有像往年那麼的多那我聽說是拜登也會去但是還沒有確認"},{"start":226.254,"end":254.506,"text":"好,那我們台灣並不是締約國只是說在這個會議討論出來的決議會有影響我國政策跟權益的議題嗎?報告委員目前最關注的就是巴黎氣候協定的第6條6.4那它這個最主要是全球的碳市場的建立那目前我們最關注這一條因為這個會跟台灣未來的包括我們的出口我們的碳定價會有很顯著的關係所以目前這個是"},{"start":255.388,"end":258.763,"text":"這次可能會有一個很重大的通過我們是密切關注這一條"},{"start":259.997,"end":284.58,"text":"所以部長因為這樣聽下來你真的非常的投入很有那個熱情然後既然成立了熱戰情中心那我覺得這個會不會是有可能來增加我們未來成為締約國的機會再更進一步這樣子我個人是期待我也希望有一朝一日我用環境部長的身份能夠參加UFCCC但是我也知道國際的現實但是我很務實低調的來進行"},{"start":286.462,"end":310.353,"text":"好那在這次的這個戰情中心的成立記者會部長有提到就是說擔心美國總統當選人可能會產生全球淨零轉型的亂流那因為我不太清楚你這樣講的原因是什麼啦因為畢竟就是說我們這樣子去評論他國的決定特別是美國這樣子泱泱大國"},{"start":312.794,"end":334.663,"text":"就是這樣會不會太過於偏頗我是有一點擔心而且我們也不是締約國我們雖然不是締約國但是我們一直在很努力在推動在做從事這個保護環境然後朝著這個節能減碳的目標一直在做努力"},{"start":337.441,"end":363.875,"text":"只是說因為現在當然就是說當時我們現在就是已經當選的川普未來的總統就是說讓美國退出締約國就是說他講了這樣的話那你怎麼斷定說他們退出了他就不會去致力於在這個善盡這個地球公民的責任然後反而成為你口中的亂流"},{"start":365.095,"end":386.888,"text":"因為部長你現在應該已經沒有在播報氣象了沒有沒有沒有所以這個到底是怎麼樣因為我有點擔心這樣的言論會有不良的影響報告委員因為當時是因為這個那幾天那個全世界的所有的評論都是非常的負面"},{"start":387.768,"end":404.415,"text":"那也跟委員報告其實經過這幾次我們也成立一個小組專門探討川普總統的未來的這個政策那我也必須說其實川普他跟8年前的那時候退出的這個巴黎氣候協定的這個方法"},{"start":404.735,"end":405.095,"text":" bicyclone"},{"start":429.895,"end":453.678,"text":"我其實有點聽不太懂這個部長的意思所以這樣亂流他是一個正向的字眼還是亂流之後會雨過天晴然後會影響未來應該會雨過天晴而且會慢慢的回到一個正軌那我個人是不擔心因為我們目前其實所以你講的亂流不是指"},{"start":454.906,"end":480.661,"text":"不是指川普?可能因為國際的氣候談判目前的確是有一點有一點這個大家擔心這個未來會怎麼樣不確定所以不確定性當然就用這個亂流形容是非常的貼切但是我也必須說因為川普總統他過去這個8年都參與很多的選舉他對於治國有他一定的看法那根據我們現在我們評估起來其實他相信在淨零部分他一定有他的看法"},{"start":481.381,"end":508.988,"text":"我們也很樂意因為我其實你一直在繼續談論這個我有一點很擔心啦我希望因為我很擔心後面如果有什麼差錯我覺得那個有關於這樣子的一個討論我想我們還是先跳過了所以在這一次這個我剛剛提出的問題你所謂的亂流應該本席聽起來它就是一個過程"},{"start":509.808,"end":514.293,"text":"事實上本期在第28次的會議的時候就有提醒從這個地球憲章"},{"start":525.685,"end":549.759,"text":"的這個內容來看呢善用原住民對自然資源的智慧一直是各國規劃保護地球的一個很重要的政策我們不能忘記就是說在這個COVID-19會議的重要議題特別是在這個邀請原住民代表的參與也是一項會議的這個重點那部長去參加"},{"start":551.42,"end":567.351,"text":" »: 過去參加了這麼多次是不是也應該要有這個思考就是說來邀請我們原住民的代表去參加相關的活動然後藉此來吸收各國當時運用原住民智慧的一個具體做法然後帶回來做參考"},{"start":569.03,"end":587.157,"text":"報告委員這個其實過去我參加過11次每次原住民都有相對應的活動我都非常感動啦那台灣參與的的確比較少那我們也希望明年COP30在巴西的時候我想我們參與少應該一來資訊少二來也是沒有受到邀請對對我們會來促成這件事情"},{"start":587.777,"end":603.528,"text":"對,所以希望部長上任之後會有新的氣象。好,謝謝。那本席還要在這裡特別呼籲環境部就是有關於這個永續發展在這次會議是各國優先推動的這個具體目標。"},{"start":605.549,"end":625.775,"text":"介注原住民跟自然生態環境融合的智慧那更是就是說規範在地球現障裡面那環境部未來在這個碳費基金的運用上呢也應該就是不能偏離這個世界潮流一定要記住原住民重要的角色好不好"},{"start":627.436,"end":650.608,"text":"所以你們這一次的戰情中心相信對於這個各國因應氣候變遷的這個作為應該也收集了不少資訊了對好那我要在這裡特別要求就是針對各國運用原住民智慧智慧的作為那也要請你們一併收集就是說把整理好的這些資料提供給本辦參考同時呢"},{"start":651.668,"end":679.992,"text":"也要參採這個運用轉化就是未來政策的擬定也要一併加以規劃那更重要的就是說就是說明年你們派出去支持的這個就是說那個民間團體的部分也應該要包含原住民的團體或代表部長是不是可以認同本席的要求非要認同也謝謝委員的指教我們會來促成這些事情好謝謝委員生日快樂"},{"start":683.933,"end":684.121,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1756,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時26分）謝謝主席，麻煩請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好，你現在肚子餓嗎？血糖還可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：還可以。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我們今天應該不會發生因為你太餓了，然後就結束本席質詢的狀況吧？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["陳委員瑩：好，希望你能夠撐下去。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["陳委員瑩：最近從媒體報導看到，環境部成立第29次全球氣候變遷締約國大會COP29的戰情中心，這是過去從來沒有過的創舉，因此本席要在這邊請教，這個戰情中心是一個任務編組嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為UNFCCC有197個締約方，全世界大概2二百多個國家，我有上ChatGPT查過，全世界有三個環境部長負責氣候變遷，但是沒辦法去，一個是梵蒂岡，一個是科索沃，另外一個就是臺灣。我以前參與很多這類的活動，但這次我沒有辦法參與，不過我們覺得還是要積極和國際接軌，要知道他們在做什麼，所以我們就設了這個戰情中心。現在就是從每天中午12點一直工作到晚上，我們會隨時蒐集資訊，它是這兩個禮拜的任務編組。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們大概編列多少預算？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有預算。"],["陳委員瑩：本席了解一下，這個戰情中心大概有多少人？"],["彭部長啓明：我平常去看的時候，大概有15個人左右。"],["陳委員瑩：戰情室的指揮官是誰？應該不是趙少康啦！"],["彭部長啓明：不是的，是我們蔡署長。"],["陳委員瑩：前線派出去參加會議的組織或團體有多少個？他們有什麼樣的配備？可以即時回傳訊息？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。但是因為這次亞塞拜然這個國家的立場比較特別一點點，所以我們也保持低調，以務實獲取臺灣最大的權利為基礎，所以人的部分，還有層級的部分，請委員給我一點空間，我們的確派了很多智庫參加。"],["陳委員瑩：就是要保密的意思，是不是？給你空間是要保密的意思，還是怎麼樣？因為本席聽了好久還是聽不到具體的數字。"],["彭部長啓明：對。我們都有保持暢通的聯絡，但是有些不適宜對外曝光。"],["陳委員瑩：你們不方便在這裡回答？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，本席不會逼你啦！你們只要照實說就好，因為回答太……"],["彭部長啓明：國內大概有幾十個人參與。"],["陳委員瑩：本席已經沒有要你說了，因為你說是秘密就秘密了。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：本席又不是某個立委，愛亂噴，不會的！根據戰情中心成立的意旨，這次會議的主題有什麼樣的訊息和情資，需要環境部派這些人熬夜輪值，而且必要時要下達部長的指令？大家有在熬夜吧？辛苦了。"],["彭部長啓明：應該沒有熬夜，因為那邊也是……"],["陳委員瑩：還是有睡覺啦！"],["彭部長啓明：有睡覺。因為他們和我們的時差大概是4個小時，所以大概工作到晚上8、9點左右就結束，中午開始工作。"],["陳委員瑩：感覺大家都很有熱忱。"],["彭部長啓明：有的。"],["陳委員瑩：根據本辦的了解，這次的主席是亞塞拜然生態與自然資源部部長，除了部長層級之外，有其他國家的領導人出席嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，非常多，不過並沒有像往年那麼多，我聽說拜登也會去，但是還沒有確認。"],["陳委員瑩：臺灣並不是締約國，只是這個會議討論出來的決議，會有影響到我國的政策和權益嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前最關注的就是巴黎氣候協定的第六條──6.4，這個部分主要關係到全球的碳市場建立，所以目前我們最關注這一條，因為和臺灣未來有很顯著的關係，包含我們的出口、碳定價，這次可能會有一個很重大的議案通過，所以我們密切關注這一條。"],["陳委員瑩：所以部長，本席這樣聽下來，覺得你真的非常投入、很有熱情，也成立了戰情中心，這樣是否會增加我們未來成為締約國的機會，可以再更進一步？"],["彭部長啓明：我個人是期待，也希望有朝一日能用環境部長的身分參加UNFCCC，但是我也知道國際的現實，所以我會很務實、低調的進行。"],["陳委員瑩：這次戰情中心成立記者會，部長有提到，擔心美國總統當選人可能會造成全球淨零轉型的亂流，本席不太清楚你這麼說的原因是什麼啦！我們這樣評論他國的決定，特別是美國這樣的泱泱大國，會不會太過偏頗？本席是有一點擔心，而且我們也不是締約國。","我們雖然不是締約國，但是我們一直很努力在推動保護環境的工作，也朝著節能減碳的目標努力。現在已經當選的川普總統，當時說了讓美國退出締約國，但是就算他說了這樣的話，你怎麼斷定他們退出之後就不會致力於善盡地球公民的責任，反而成為你口中的亂流？部長，你現在應該已經沒有在播報氣象了？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：所以到底是怎麼樣？因為本席有點擔心這樣的言論會有不良影響。"],["彭部長啓明：因為那幾天全世界的所有評論都非常負面。其實經過這幾次，我們也成立一個小組專門探討川普總統未來的政策，我也必須說，其實現在和川普8年前退出巴黎氣候協定的方法和形勢應該會不一樣，所以我們現在是很正面、正向看待未來他們可能會有的變化。尤其美國在淨零的科技上面，其實是居於全世界領先的地位，所以我們也很努力的，未來要主動做接軌的工作。我們不擔心他是亂流，因為亂流不是主流，只是短暫的波折而已。"],["陳委員瑩：其實本席有點聽不太懂部長的意思，所以亂流這樣的說詞是一個正向的字眼？還是……"],["彭部長啓明：就是我們坐飛機……"],["陳委員瑩：還是亂流之後會雨過天晴，然後迎向未來？"],["彭部長啓明：應該會雨過天晴，而且會慢慢回到正軌，我個人不是很擔心，因為我們目前……"],["陳委員瑩：所以你說的亂流不是指川普？"],["彭部長啓明：關於國際的氣候談判，目前大家的確是有一點擔心未來會怎麼樣，因為有不確定性，所以用亂流形容是非常貼切的。但是我也必須說，因為川普總統過去8年參與很多選舉，他對於治國有一定的看法，根據我們現在的評估，相信他在淨零部分一定有他的看法，我們也很樂意……"],["陳委員瑩：你一直在談論這個問題，但有一點讓本席很擔心，就是怕之後會有什麼差錯，所以有關這樣的討論，我們還是先跳過。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員瑩：所以本席剛剛提出的問題，就是你所謂的亂流，聽起來它就是一個過程。"],["彭部長啓明：對，是一個過程。"],["陳委員瑩：但結果會是好的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好，大家聽到了。事實上，本席在第28次會議的時候就提醒過，從地球憲章的內容來看，善用原住民對自然資源的智慧，一直是各國規劃保護地球的很重要政策，我們不能忘記，COP29會議特別邀請原住民代表參與，這也是會議的一項重點。部長過去參加了這麼多次，是不是也應該要做同樣的思考？就是邀請原住民代表參加相關活動，藉此吸收各國當時運用原住民智慧的具體做法，並且帶回來參考？"],["彭部長啓明：過去我參加過11次，每次原住民都有相對應的活動，我都非常感動。臺灣參與的的確比較少，我們也希望明年COP30在巴西舉辦的時候……"],["陳委員瑩：我們參與的比較少，一來是因為資訊少，二來也是因為沒有受到邀請。"],["彭部長啓明：對。好，我們會促成這件事情。"],["陳委員瑩：希望部長上任之後會有新的氣象。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：本席還要在這裡特別呼籲環境部，有關這次會議的永續發展議題，這是各國優先推動的具體目標，藉助原住民和自然生態、環境融合的智慧，規範在地球憲章裡面，環境部未來在碳費基金的運用上也不能偏離世界潮流，一定要記住原住民這個重要的角色，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，這個部分我們會考慮進去。"],["陳委員瑩：你們這一次的戰情中心對各國因應氣候變遷的作為，應該也蒐集了不少資訊。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：本席在這裡特別要求，針對各國運用原住民智慧的作為，也請你們一併蒐集，把整理好的資料提供本辦參考。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["陳委員瑩：同時也要參採、運用、轉化，擬定未來政策時也要一併加以規劃。更重要的是，明年你們派出去支持的民間團體部分，也應該要包含原住民的團體或代表。部長是不是可以認同本席的要求？"],["彭部長啓明：非常認同，也謝謝委員的指教，我們會促成這些事情。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，生日快樂。"],["陳委員瑩：這樣本席會害羞啦！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳瑩委員。接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 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art":409.206,"end":436.055,"text":"台南護理專科學校黃校長請加油然後臺北科技大學我們已經協調好了王校長我們終於可以在地案了換言之如果各校我相信大家想推遇到困難請教育部專案來協助好我的時間到了我今天提的資料提的訊息請大家一起搶救珍貴的教育預算新宿舍運動83億未來可能沒有了大家趕快來爭取好"},{"start":438.149,"end":438.169,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時13分）謝謝主席，很開心回到教育部門，跟所有的大學校長再一次就預算珍貴的時刻來討論我們高教的資源。有請部長、有請彭署長，還有廖司長。"],["主席：有請部長、署長跟司長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我今天是要來搶救教育預算的。今天也有一些委員提到，財政收支劃分法如果粗糙地被修過了，那麼未來就是瘦中央肥地方，那教育預算會成為重災戶。財劃法如果被惡修了，教育預算成為重災戶，我一定要透過直播，把這個訴求讓全臺灣關心教育的朋友一起來關注。今天有很多在野黨的委員在場，一手討預算，要跟部長爭取預算，但是一手卻忘了他們正在從中央把珍貴的教育預算給挖走了。下一頁。財劃法如果帶走了6,612億元，那麼中央剩下可用的財源就是1,157億元，這幾天國人都看到了。下一頁。","我過去長期在教育文化領域，我就針對高教跟國教。這幾天我的辦公室都在統計，如果財劃法6,612億元從中央的可用財源來挪移了，那麼高教的青年預算可用的財源會大失血，初估至少影響1,292.7億元。這個數字，昨天算到半夜，而且這是吳思瑤辦公室自己算的。我請高教司長提供給我一個更完整的資訊。","譬如說，「補助國立大專校院校務基金及其附設醫院教學維管與工程設備」540億元可能就沒有辦法再支應了。又譬如說，大家現在都享受到政府的福利，減免大專學生的學雜費，而且補助私校健全發展395億元，也會斷炊了。又包括高教深耕，我剛剛有聽到國民黨的委員要爭取，還請部長賭上烏紗帽，一定要爭取高教前瞻的經費。那麼請在野黨的委員懸崖勒馬，如果財劃法修惡、惡修了，高教深耕計畫第二期200.5億元就不見了，更不要說「因應高教人才斷層─提升教研人員待遇計畫」將近50億元。","所以總體來講，高教青年可用的預算就可能被搬走了1,292.7億元，現在的計畫沒有辦法永續執行。這是高教的部分，我請高教司給我一個更完整的統計，OK嗎？好，下一頁。","國教的部分，我要謝謝彭署長，因為這兩天剛好跟他有另外的會議，我們剛好一起討論到。如果財劃法修正了，未來影響中央可用財源在國教的部分，至少會影響938.2億元。部長，您聽好哦！包括少子化對策計畫──2到6歲的幼兒照顧與照護688.8億元可能就斷炊了；又包括過去在教育及文化委員會我們一直努力在推的學生輔導法，好不容易朝野同意、通過協商，很快可以在院會二、三讀。當朝野都在爭取學生輔導法，要擴建我們地方政府，協助他們來增設專輔教師、輔諮中心，還有專輔人員的人事費，教育部編了32.6億元！如果修法大家都說要修學生輔導法，可是另外一邊財劃法又被修惡了，那麼這一筆32.6億元要協助地方專輔教師的經費就沒有了。所以在國教的部分，受影響跟衝擊的會有938.2億元。彭署長，我的整理應當是正確的吧？"],["彭署長富源：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是？好。下一頁。因為內容很多，我沒有辦法來細項講，但是我必須突顯，教育是重災戶。本席長期以來協助投入爭取的青年租金補貼363億元，包括內政部335億元是用來擴大這些社會青年的租金補貼。但是在教育部門，我們上會期努力爭取、今年度上路的大專校院的校內住宿補貼28億元就受影響了。再下一頁。","我很快地收束，我要講新宿舍運動，在場所有的校長，大家照過來。新宿舍運動第一期50億元，第二期33億元，如果財源被搬走了，恐怕也沒有辦法永續。請大家還沒爭取的，趕快來爭取。現在政府編列的是第一期50億元跟第二期的33億元，僅剩的，可能未來會斷炊。下一頁。很快地跟大家報告，國立大學參與有31校，通過率有67.7%，沒有申請的臺灣體育運動大學許校長請加油！臺東大學鄭校長請加油！臺北教育大學陳校長請加油！包括暫停中的有彰化師範、臺北大學跟體育大學，如果學校遇見問題，教育部專案來協助。再下一頁。技職的部分，更要教育部來全力幫忙。目前沒有申請的，臺灣科技大學顏校長請加油！虎尾科技大學張校長，你們撤案了，請加油！澎湖科技大學黃校長、臺北商業大學任校長、臺東專科學校王校長、臺南護理專科學校黃校長，請加油！然後臺北科技大學，我們已經協調好了，王校長，我們終於可以再遞案了。換言之，我相信各校大家想推，遇到困難，請教育部專案來協助。"],["主席：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我的時間到了。我今天提的資料、提的訊息，請大家一起搶救珍貴的教育預算。新宿舍運動83億元未來可能沒有了，大家趕快來爭取。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，部長、署長等請回，謝謝吳思瑤委員的質詢。","我們現在處理臨時提案。今天有委員提出臨時提案計一案，請宣讀。","案由：有鑒於桃園市因人口快速成長，導致醫療及教育資源不均，多所國立大學包括：清華大學、中央大學、陽明交大、政治大學、台北科技大學、台灣海洋大學等校，108年起即陸續規畫於桃園市設立醫院、醫療園區或教育中心、分校等，並和桃園市政府簽訂合作意向書MOU，民眾殷切期盼。然市政府已配合變更都市計畫及無償提供土地，惟迄今5年有餘，除期程延宕，更未有具體進度，甚至拖過合作意向書期限，還傳出計畫生變，嚴重傷害桃園市民情感，尤其清華大學、中央大學及陽明交大原計畫於桃園設置醫院及醫療園區，既已取得移撥土地，若無法以原計畫完成，則應與桃園市政府合作設置市立醫院為宜。爰要求上述6間國立大學，於一個月內具體回覆前揭計畫之最終定案及預定辦理期程。","提案人：萬美玲","連署人：葛如鈞　　羅廷瑋"],["主席：好，謝謝。因為這個臨時提案教育部這邊已經同意，部長有要表達什麼嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我是不是還是請這6所學校校長表達一下？有沒有其他意見？是不是能夠配合辦理？"],["主席：就是清大、中央大、陽明交大、政治大學、臺北科技大學、臺灣海洋大學……"],["萬委員美玲：對不起！主席，我可以再說明嗎？這樣子的話，可能他們的東西上來會更精準一點，好不好？"],["主席：好，請說。"],["萬委員美玲：我想跟部長還有上述6所國立大學說明，剛剛我在質詢的時候有講得很清楚，但是這中間還有很多的細節跟問題，今天因為時間的關係，沒有辦法講述完成，但是我相信這6所國立大學都知道這裡面有一些問題在。","我是希望這個月具體回復的內容不可以太空泛，要能夠具體，為什麼？因為具體有助於這6所學校能夠確立在我們桃園市MOU的落實執行，所以這也是給雙方彼此一個機會。你們趕快去檢視，然後把這個計畫寫出來，也便於與桃園市政府來做一個合作，讓教育委員會的委員能夠清楚知道。所以，在一個月內把MOU現在沒有辦法達成原來共識的地方要能夠詳述清楚，然後一個月之內把它提出來。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好。請問剛剛這6所學校的校長有沒有什麼意見要表達的？如果沒有的話，在場委員應該也沒有異議？"],["萬委員美玲：是不是可以確認一下這6所學校都能夠提出來，然後教育部保證一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以嘛？我看6所學校的校長都點頭，所以我們就配合辦理，謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，那就照案通過。","各提案如果有委員補簽，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄，可以到前面補簽。","接著我們就繼續進行質詢。請林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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櫃公司的公司治理，我相信是一個非常重要的事項，不管是主委還是董事長，對於上市櫃公司做好公司治理，保障投資大眾的權益，資訊的透明公開，這些都是ABC，不用多說了。那我們在公司治理的時候，遇到有特定政治背景的人，標準會改變嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這個規定就是規定，應該不會改變。"],["黃委員國昌：應該不會改變，那我們具體來看一下。有一家上市公司，它的策略長4月16號辭去職務，依照規定要不要發重訊？這個要很熟啦！金管會的主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這裡面我們重訊有一定的規定，這部分的話應該是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以要不要發重訊？我秀給你看，臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司對有價證券上市公司重大訊息查證暨公開處理程序，策略長人事變動要不要發重訊？要嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員國昌：對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：那如果沒有發重訊要不要處罰？"],["彭主任委員金隆：要。"],["黃委員國昌：要嘛！那我問題就來了，郭智輝辭職了，他一開始沒有發重訊被人家檢舉，到5月才補發，證交所有處罰嗎？崇越公司的，因為有人跟我具名檢舉啦！他們跟證交所檢舉啊！結果證交所回應他們的函，看不下去啊！我們一件事情一件事情來，剛已經建立了要發重訊嘛！沒有發該處罰，請問罰了什麼？請說明。"],["林董事長修銘：報告委員，通常來講第一次的話，我們都會發文去警告。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個有發文警告？"],["林董事長修銘：有。"],["黃委員國昌：叫他以後不可以這樣了。"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，我先講啦！之前我還在財政委員會的時候，我非常注意這種事情，像已經釀成大風暴的如興弊案，當初該公告的東西「一拖拉庫」沒有公告。當初證交所一開始也是放水，但我在財政委員會質詢了以後，那個時候證交所董事長是施俊吉，他該處理就處理了，我希望證交所標準要一致。"],["林董事長修銘：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個，你說這個第一次不要罰，我們給他警告就好了，跟郭智輝個人沒有關係，不是因為他出任了經濟部部長，不敢罰。你們都是按照標準，雖然他的公司沒有依照規定發重訊，但是第一次只警告，不處罰。第二個，他辭職以前，他的持股轉讓事後要不要申報？"],["林董事長修銘：要。"],["黃委員國昌：要嘛！"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["黃委員國昌：他有申報嗎？他有申報嗎？"],["林董事長修銘：是不是容我們查一下再……"],["黃委員國昌：你的資訊掌握很差，我再說一次，已經有人檢舉到你們證交所。檢舉到你們證交所，你們扭曲規定，跟人家擦脂抹粉，說他已經辭職了，他4月辭職，所以5月不用申報。來看一下證交法第二十五條的規定，看一下你們對於上市公司內部人持股權交易問答及宣傳。我在月中解任，次月要不要依照證交法第二十五條規定辦理事後申報，要還是不要？"],["林董事長修銘：要。"],["黃委員國昌：要嘛！"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有申報怎麼辦？"],["林董事長修銘：要處罰。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼罰？你證交法實在不熟，來來來看一下，看一下證交法第一百七十八條，違反第二十五條的規定「二十四萬元以上四百八十萬元以下的罰鍰」，可以了嘛！這個就沒有什麼。啊！他是第一次，所以就放掉。這個就是要依法處罰嘛！你說你不了解狀況，沒有關係我給你時間回去了解。"],["林董事長修銘：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我給你時間回去了解，但請一併處理，為什麼已經有人去檢舉了，你的證交所隨便發一個函給人家打發掉，說他已經解任了，所以不用申報。證交法第二十五條，依照你們跟所有上市櫃公司重要的董總上課規定的內容，這就是你們證交所印的宣傳集啊！奇怪了？怎麼遇到特定公司的時候，該處罰沒有罰，還用公文幫人家擦脂抹粉，這樣對嗎？"],["林董事長修銘：報告委員，這件事情容我回去查以後馬上跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：查清楚，證交所該處理處理。第二件事情，當初是誰這樣回函的？"],["林董事長修銘：好，OK，我們也會……"],["黃委員國昌：讓我們的投資大眾檢舉以後心寒啊！我們的金管會，我們的證交所遇到有特定政治背景的人，整個骨頭都軟了。一個禮拜之內回覆可以嗎？"],["林董事長修銘：好，可以。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員，請證交所快速回應黃國昌委員的質疑。接著請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156934","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156934","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b3e73510ae2581892f5866fb8dd1f93153993c1c201d063e6d2a91ba8bd4818235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:07:10 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部長謝謝"},{"start":352.497,"end":352.964,"text":"部長、司政部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時7分）謝謝主席，先請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。","吳思瑤委員質詢完之後，我們處理臨時提案。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長，今天有這麼多的專家、學者、大學校長在這邊，當然首先還是要了解一下我國高教的問題。我是外委會的，時間比較少，所以很快速地跟部長討論一下。從數據上來看，不管是教育部的數據，還是審計部的決算報告也好，臺灣大專校院平均每個學生的分攤經費，國立大學平均大概30萬元，私立大學平均大概十七萬多元，全國平均22萬元。即便是臺大，已經是全臺灣最好的學校，每個學生的平均分配經費也只有64萬元。相比於其他鄰國，不管是亞洲各國還是歐洲各國，甚至香港、美國等等，就用臺大去跟他們比，連臺大的平均經費都不太夠。","所以我想問一下部長，對於我國大學平均每生的分攤經費，教育部有什麼樣的做法能夠提升臺灣各大學的高教品質？尤其在近年來，講坦白的，有時候很心痛，就是我們最近這幾年全世界的大學排名好像節節在衰退，到底問題是出在哪裡？還有一個問題是說，經費跟別國比起來相對比較少之外，還有教學現場很多老師會有一個問題是，他除了教學之外，還有他的研究和很多競爭型計畫，他必須花很多心思在競爭型及在教育部推出的各種短期計畫裡面，這件事情我想也影響了學生的受教權。所以問一下部長，新上任之後，到目前這個問題有沒有辦法解決或未來有什麼樣的想法？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心高等教育的教育品質，包括它的資源。我想委員也非常清楚，臺灣的高等教育經費在過去當然有一套公務預算上的一個計算方式，隨著學校後來的發展，譬如說像臺、成、清、交、政大這些都有非常好的品牌，他們在產業、企業、民間的支持、捐款，以及來自於學生、校友的一些亮麗的表現，我想他們的資源相對是豐富的。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["鄭部長英耀：但是如果我們再從經費上來看，我們考慮到幣值，在當地的消費指數來看，其實我們會看到我們臺灣的一些大學事實上是各有特色。在國際評比裡面，我們這些大學校長都在這裡，我們會看到在未來我們要更積極努力的是在國際化那個環境。雖然香港、新加坡有幾個學校在世界排名，以香港來講，有4、5個學校列入排名百大，可是我們非常清楚，以包括德國那麼好的學校，不管是科技、文化、哲學、人文素養各方面的資源其實不遑多讓，但是它那麼多的大學也只進入到世界百大裡面……"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係！部長，因為我時間有限，不好意思打斷你一下………"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我要跟委員講說……"],["黃委員健豪：我要問的是教育部的經費，那經費你們未來會提高呢？還是說……剛剛部長意思是說，變成像比如說臺、清、交、成這些學校他們去靠募款的方式？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們確實逐年提高，明年114就比今年多了59億元，這59億元裡面包含高教深耕多了20億元。簡單來講，包含臺大校長希望我們有更多的前瞻，以前我們高等教育本來就從邁頂到現在的高教深耕，基本上它是另外一個前瞻的概念，用來支持科研能量好、體質好，然後願意有一些承擔的，我想我們會支持。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係！部長，經費增加之外，我剛剛還提到一個事情，就是學校的老師，就是第一線的教授們除了教學之外，他也花很多時間，必須做研究或必須……當然研究是必然的啦！只是在你們的補助經費裡面，你們的競爭型補助可能多過常態型的補助，所以老師要花很多時間去做這件事情。等於他的研究計畫也好，或他在教學的品質也好，都可能有所下降。我不知道說這件事情教育部在政策上有沒有需要調整？還是你們要繼續延續目前這個對大學補助計畫的方式？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，當然很多政策的推動我們都希望能夠往好的方向來走，但在實際上的推動，事實上還是在各大學。我們當然希望對這些老師的教學研究跟教學品質能夠確保，然後能夠獲得一些適度的經費，能夠給予他們支持。"],["黃委員健豪：我們當然希望啦！應該這樣講，具體建議是希望大學第一線的教授可以不要花這麼多時間在爭取所謂的競爭型計畫，而是教育部能夠給他們比較穩定的常態型的補助、常態型的預算，有沒有可能這樣做？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，以大學教授來講，他個人的計畫基本上是在國科會。但是以教育部來講，我們比較少個人……"],["黃委員健豪：我是說學校，個人當然不管。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們大概都是從學校。學校爭取到的經費回到學校之後，怎麼樣落實他們對研究計畫的一些想像，然後怎麼樣能夠紮實地去執行，我想我們利用這個機會還是要拜託我們大學校長，我們一起來努力。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。"],["主席：部長、司長請回，謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢。","再來請吳思瑤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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支持。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，這個案子不但可以解決惡臭的問題，我們也可以有效地排出這些廢棄物，不管是做未來綠能的發展，或者是利用菌的發酵生成營養液，來做循環的經濟，這個是我們要共同努力的目標。臺東縣其實一直想要走的是這樣的路，我們好山好水，我們沒有工業的汙染，我們也希望朝永續來發展。在這邊再一次謝謝部長對臺東縣的支持，也希望未來有相關的計畫，部裡面能夠來支持我們。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒有問題，關山的這個案子，我們會全力來支持。"],["黃委員建賓：好，感謝部長，感謝司長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員。","接下來請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 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»: 但我們可以來再進一步的去掌握。 »: 我覺得當然它這個其實是一個像VERA就是國際上面大概最重要的幾個國際探險人機構的檢舉。但是我自己認為我們自己的環境部對於像這樣子的事情到底我們的具體掌握,因為看到這個這次檢舉性的時間出來的時間其實是9月。其實距今已經兩個月了。"},{"start":331.463,"end":354.035,"text":"到底我們掌握﹖我覺得剛剛聽起來這樣的話其實掌握的內容是不太足夠的到底有沒有違反其他國家相關的法律我為什麼當然這件事情本身的釐清他會去做某些部分他該做的事情可是我們的環境部我認為要扮演的角色是要讓我們自己的企業很清楚規矩是什麼"},{"start":356.173,"end":370.471,"text":"規範是什麼不能夠違反的是什麼因為當只要今天有一家企業在一個國際的平台上面有違反的時候很可能會讓其他的國際組織對同樣都是來自於台灣的計畫來自於台灣的project"},{"start":370.971,"end":372.072,"text":" bicynnello,"},{"start":391.404,"end":415.865,"text":"當然現在大家都在談減碳很多企業、很多民眾、很多社會都在談減碳我覺得這是好事可是我們也這裡看到其實有很多利用資訊不對稱的這個狀況其實會讓很多人受騙之前我其實已經開記者會其實提過了包括讓不了解探權或者是近鄰的民眾可能付了高昂的補習的費用或者是拿了其實明明不被官方認證的這樣子的一個證書"},{"start":418.127,"end":446.521,"text":"這都是在利用資訊不對等的狀況甚至有些我們看到它還造成在股市股價上面的波動那這對一些資訊不對稱的投資人來說也是不公平的事情我認為環境部應該要很清楚告訴大家我要再講一次現在哪裡要符合什麼規矩要符合什麼規範不然這樣資訊不對等的狀況如果繼續延燒的話或更廣泛的出現這狀況的話很有可能會引起社會對於以後都覺得在講減碳的"},{"start":448.092,"end":473.282,"text":"是不是都是投機行為?我們當然不希望大家現在非常非常期待的氣候行動都被認知為可能都是投機行為。我覺得這對於未來環境部在檢探淨零的工作上也會出現很大的阻礙。所以部長我覺得有幾個部分我們怎麼避免票率包括應該依據國際市場的高標準來進行審核跟運作資訊應該透明不可以過度的做不實的宣傳要符合申請國的規範要求"},{"start":474.562,"end":499.951,"text":"不可以濫用頭銜來誤導民眾這現在很多人在幹這事情喔媒體如果誤導不實的話媒體如果也不確定的話應該請教環境部給予明確的資訊至少給予清楚的透明化的資訊我覺得這環境部可以做的事情部長我們應該更積極這應該沒有問題吧好包委員您說的這個部分我們有在做但是或許我們做的還不夠我會持續的加強而且要更加大力道的對外宣示"},{"start":500.131,"end":525.817,"text":" bicy,我看到你最近跟外交部有合作關於一些氣候外交的部分也談到一些可能探權的合作我們要談到跨國探權前如果沒有辦法把這個規範清清楚楚的讓外界知道的話其實也會有人疑慮太快的進到所謂的國際探權會不會有更多這樣的投機行為或者是利用更大的跨國之間的資訊不對稱不對稱在做炒作的部分如果我們有更在這方面有更大的雄心我覺得"},{"start":526.897,"end":527.258,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":539.671,"end":540.092,"text":"謝謝紅身漢委員接下來請黃建斌"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1666,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時56分）請彭部長。"],["主席：好，有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長早。部長，我時間有限。這幾天我們大家都有看到，環境部針對今年在亞塞拜然進行的COP29中，有一些我們的記者會或者是一些發生的狀況，部長，但是我有看到，你在COP29第一天的記者會上面有提到，有許多參與的專家朋友都有收到一封來自UNFCCC主辦方的信件，在信件上面表示參與此會議的目的要很清楚，是為了減碳，而不是為了漂綠或是會議後做某些商業利益的宣稱，部長，你覺得UNFCCC主辦方為什麼要做這樣子的提醒？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為其實的確有一些單位或團體藉由參加會議，用代表團的身分，或是花錢購買了一些記者會或是周邊會議的入場機會，然後就宣稱他是聯合國的相關人員，然後透過新聞的傳送，就變成他是這個領域的人士，或是他是最棒的，那的確會造成整個社會的困擾。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們現在很關心一件事情，第一個是，這兩個月很多單位都有收到一封檢舉信，這封檢舉信就是發自Verra，也就是國際碳權的核發跟認證機構，在VCS的平台上有這封檢舉信，這一封檢舉信的內容提到，有來自臺灣的機構在參與COP28的會議的時候，宣稱自己通過了Verra相關的碳權的批准，這個檢舉信的內容指說，這樣子的宣稱恐怕跟實質的狀況是不吻合的、是不符合的、是有落差的。部長，您有沒有收到這封檢舉信？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，有的。我們氣候署署長有在處理這個事情。"],["洪委員申翰：我們看到這個東西，我跟部長說，其實你應該知道，這段時間很多關心氣候變遷的國際組織，包括碳權相關的組織，都有收到這封信，我們看了以後，很多國際的氣候組織都紛紛來問我們，這一封檢舉信上面的內容是否屬實，到底說的是對的還是不對的，裡面的指控到底是對的還是不對的，因為裡面的內容還包括來自臺灣的機構是不是有違反其它國家在碳權認定上面相關的法規或方法學上面的規範，對於這封信上面的內容是不是真的，我沒有進行調查，我無法斷定，可是我認為環境部應該要積極地查明這件事情，這件事情為什麼重要？我們不能讓其他的國家，不管是官方單位、民間單位、專業單位，對跟臺灣有關的碳權相關的問題，產生信任上面的質疑。我想部長應該很清楚，一個合法的碳權的申請，尤其經過國際組織，是相當繁瑣的，為什麼要走過這麼多步驟，原因就是要去確認，credit這個字，有些人翻譯成信用，某部分也是大家對它產生信任，有這個信任，你才有辦法進行經濟市場上面的流通或交易等事情，重點是在於要有一定可信的正當性，包括合法性，是很重要的。所以部長，我們能夠在多短的時間裡面把剛剛這個訊息查明？到底指控是否屬實？如果有誤會，也澄清有誤會，但如果說的是真的，那我們環境部的態度是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：好。報告委員，我們請氣候署署長來說明。"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。跟委員報告，因為這一個案件是跟國際民間單位Verra來申請註冊，檢舉信的內容，據我們了解，是Verra他們自己本身也有請這個案件的申請單位要去釐清，那當然會涉及到我們國內，就是包括金管單位，因為可能也有上市、上櫃公司相關的事情，目前已經確認金管會已經掌握這個案子的進展。剛剛委員提醒在某個國家做的專案是不是符合該國相關法規，這個部分我們也可以再找我們國內的相關單位來查，但畢竟我們沒有辦法去對它的申請去釐清確認，但我們可以再進一步地去掌握。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，這個是向Verra這些國際上最重要的幾個國際碳權認證機構的檢舉，但是我自己認為，我們自己的環境部對於像這樣子的事情，到底具體掌握如何？看到這封檢舉信出來的時間是9月，其實距今已經兩個月了，到底我們掌握如何？我剛剛聽起來，覺得掌握的內容是不太足夠的。到底有沒有違反其他國家相關的法律？當然這件事情本身的釐清，Verra會去做某些部分它該做的事情，可是我認為我們的環境部要扮演的角色，就是要讓我們自己的企業很清楚規矩是什麼、規範是什麼、不能夠違反的是什麼，因為只要今天有一家企業在一個國際的平台上面違反規範的時候，很可能會讓其他的國際組織對同樣都是來自於臺灣的計畫、來自於臺灣的project，產生質疑，這就不只是單純一個計畫的問題了，它就是對於你這個國家的碳權認定都產生懷疑的問題，我覺得環境部必須扮演這個角色，所以我要說的事情是，有幾個部分，我們現在看到，當然現在大家都在談減碳，很多企業、很多民眾、很多事情都在談減碳，我覺得這是好事，可是我們也可以看到，有很多利用資訊不對稱的狀況讓很多人受騙。之前我已經開記者會提過了，包括讓不了解碳權或淨零的民眾，可能付了高昂的補習費用，或者是拿了明明不被官方認證的證書，這都是在利用資訊不對稱的狀況，甚至有些還造成在股市股價上面的波動，對一些資訊不對稱的投資人來說，也是不公平的事情，我認為環境部應該要很清楚地告訴大家，我要再講一次，要告訴大家，線在哪裡？要符合什麼規矩？要符合什麼規範？不然這樣子資訊不對等的狀況如果繼續延燒的話，或者更廣泛地出現這個狀況的話，很有可能引起社會以後都會覺得在講減碳的是不是都是投機行為。我們當然不希望，大家現在非常非常期待的氣候行動，都被認知為可能都是投機行為，我覺得這對於未來環境部減碳淨零的工作也會出現很大的阻礙。所以部長，我覺得有幾個部分我們要思考怎麼避免漂綠，考慮應該依據國際市場的高標準來進行審核跟運作，資訊應該透明，不可以過度地做不實的宣傳，要符合申請國的規範要求，不可以濫用頭銜來誤導民眾，現在很多人在幹這個事情，媒體如果不確定的話，應該要請教環境部，請環境部給予明確的資訊，至少給予清楚的、透明化的資訊，我覺得這個是環境部可以做的事情。部長，我們應該更積極，這應該沒有問題吧？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，您說的這個部分，我們有在做，但是或許我們做得還不夠，我會持續地加強，而且要更加大力道對外宣示。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我看到你最近跟外交部有合作，關於一些氣候外交的部分，也談到一些可能的碳權合作，我們要談到跨國碳權前，如果沒有辦法把這個規範清清楚楚地讓外界知道的話，其實也會有疑慮，太快進到國際碳權，會不會有更多這樣的投機行為？或者是利用更大的跨國之間的資訊不對稱在做炒作的部分，如果我們在這方面有更大的雄心，我覺得態度要更嚴謹，要更嚴格，好不好？這部分麻煩部長。","針對剛剛我提的那個檢舉信的事件，你覺得再多久時間，可以更清楚地把這個事情查明？"],["彭部長啓明：現在正在處理當中，一個月的時間可不可以？"],["洪委員申翰：一個月的時間，好不好？不管他說的內容是對的或不對的，我們都讓大家知道，不要讓外面對我們有疑慮，如果他說的是對的，那我們就應該積極地來處理，如果是不對的，我們也可以澄清，我覺得這都很好，但是重點是我們態度要清楚，查要快，已經兩個月了，好不好？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝委員指教，我們會努力來做。"],["洪委員申翰：謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員。","接下來請黃建賓委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}},{"id":"156928","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156928","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b022423e3bebd762d2a0d4a4306ab205f3993c1c201d063e633c073854302364d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:55:43 - 12:04:37","影片長度":"00:08:54","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T11:55:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T12:04:37+08:00","duration":534,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.35034375,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.602843750000002,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.41659375,"end":20.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.95659375,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.53034375,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.93909375,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.96409375,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.06534375,"end":23.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.75721875,"end":29.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.832218750000003,"end":30.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.675968750000003,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.83971875,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.627843750000004,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.01159375,"end":47.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.158468750000004,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.322843750000004,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.06034375,"end":62.586593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.75534375,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.345968750000004,"end":63.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.02096875000001,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.52159375000001,"end":73.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.26409375,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.97659375,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.94596875,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.53159375,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.87159375,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.70659375000001,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.09034375,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.61284375000001,"end":112.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.65034375,"end":113.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.66721875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.97659375,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.42784375000002,"end":160.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.15346875,"end":161.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.74409375000002,"end":186.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.74909375000001,"end":193.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.62096875,"end":210.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.60971875,"end":214.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.57971875,"end":217.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.66784375,"end":218.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.32159375,"end":225.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.05471875,"end":229.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.77971875,"end":231.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.39971875,"end":233.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.39096875,"end":247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.40159375000002,"end":250.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.99596875,"end":252.27846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.64971875,"end":255.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.77159375000002,"end":258.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.13409375000003,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.21846875,"end":258.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.30284375,"end":258.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.33659375,"end":263.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.41596875,"end":272.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.47784375000003,"end":281.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.28221875,"end":286.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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法修正之後所以你看喔你剛講的就跟我剛講一模一樣嘛"},{"start":188.496,"end":191.718,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":211.527,"end":233.339,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。」案。但是呢我們現在以那個那個那個呃現行的規劃的那個什麼牛牛那什麼牛牛什麼牛草圃除能場他是一百七十百萬瓦也就是他是原本這個消防指引的八千五百倍那你拿一個第一階的"},{"start":234.448,"end":257.771,"text":"他是針對一個20千瓦的系統的這個消防指引用在這個170百萬瓦那這個對嗎然後依照舊有的指引是距離建築物停車場公共設施30公尺以上那個是舊有的指引那可以用在8500倍更大的這個儲能廠的消防指引上嗎"},{"start":258.831,"end":286.1,"text":"委員那個消防署他們規定的是講說多少以上都要受規範然後那時候在檢討這個時候有關安全距離或跟建築物怎麼去那時候都有去做了一些檢討次長我再講一次好不好次長不要這樣子扯我再講一次原本的消防指引他是他的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統"},{"start":287,"end":311.55,"text":"但是我們現在儲能場的設置以那個牛超普是170百萬所以是原本法院他所針對的20千瓦的8500倍那如果一個8500倍的那個容量的儲能場你還是用在原本的那個消防指引我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧"},{"start":312.611,"end":317.774,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":332.472,"end":334.633,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":356.445,"end":359.549,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":378.239,"end":402.657,"text":"這個狀況你們有沒有什麼任何的因應機制就是這個儲能廠不斷的容量在擴張你們有沒有什麼想法這我們是跨部會在檢討那剛才委員講的其實現在有一些儲能櫃有一些新的儲能櫃那新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能那我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃那新型的儲能櫃如果現在已經有一些廠商已經有量產出來"},{"start":403.297,"end":427.865,"text":"那我們最後會導引到這樣的一個除人櫃那相對在安全性就會比現在container這個會安全會提高很多那至於委員講的那個跟消防那個我們還會再來跟他做一些確定我上個會期已經找過消防署那麻煩你們要注意不可能容量變大那麼多體積變大那麼多結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛那最後我是在講啦就這次經濟部長"},{"start":429.757,"end":448.285,"text":"這新任的這位經濟部長當時業界也有人講就是說他本身他原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電所以他應該會非常的理解經濟部長一定非常的理解太陽能光電在做什麼有什麼風險有什麼未來性但是連最基本的儲能廠甚至匱限什麼都搞不定"},{"start":448.985,"end":474.579,"text":"那我也不知道說這樣下去要怎麼辦然後我們的所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的建設的那個比例遠遠落後嘛到現在好像只有136吧136百萬瓦嘛原本是預計到可以到200萬對不對我印象中是這樣齁好吧那"},{"start":476.325,"end":479.587,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":492.073,"end":507.129,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條文修正草案、第十一條文修"},{"start":509.992,"end":512.834,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1176,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時55分）謝謝主席，今天部長沒來，我們麻煩常次。"],["主席：請連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：常次你好。我今天主要是跟你請教一下有關儲能場的問題，我們知道太陽能光電是國家現在一直在發展的，太陽能板的問題還沒有解決，現在又有一個新的問題出現，那就是儲能場，目前高雄、屏東、臺南這些儲能場，其實地方都一直在抗爭。我們知道，你要發展綠能，你如果沒有儲能場，那等於是空談。前面的太陽能板轉換率提得再高，如果沒有儲能場，一切也是沒有任何意義，所以儲能場還是搭配綠能一個很重要的東西，尤其是太陽能光電。我來提幾個地方，鳳山的牛潮埔儲能場簽約不到一個月，然後馬上就抗爭；鳳山文華里也有一個離最近的住家只有三公尺的儲能場，市府也要求它遷移；林園區有一個儲能廠的計畫，居民馬上就拉布條抗議；大寮區設場的案子，在議會總質詢時也有居民去陳情；屏東林邊鄉的村民去年底也在指控儲能業者根本沒有完成土地變更就施工。這麼多的問題，到現在為止，所有問題都還是用行政命令在解決，還沒有一個專法出來，是不是這樣？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，有關儲能的部分，現在確實是透過各部會相關的子法、規則或指引在做處理，在這一次的電業法修正草案裡面，我們已經把儲能列為一個特定電力設施，這個在草案裡面我們在做檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：可是你看已經推了那麼久了，綠能搞了那麼久，結果就到現在儲能場的專法都沒有出來。我提一個問題，現在業者申請設置儲能場，地方政府只是進行用地的審查，其他的機電設備、消防簽證都是送經濟部標準局，我想問一下，難道儲能場它最終是由經濟部標準局來核准就好嗎？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，現行包括土地使用的部分是由地方政府把關，然後有關於設備安全以及場所安全的部分，標準局這邊有規定。另外，針對消防的部分，內政部消防署也訂出了消防的安全指引，現在就是用這種部會合作的方式在做儲能場的設置，未來在我們的電業法修正之後……"],["吳委員宗憲：你看你剛剛講的就跟我剛剛講的一模一樣，今天儲能場的使用最終變成是由經濟部標準局來管，這個還滿奇怪的！","再來，你剛剛說到消防的部分，我也覺得有一個很大的問題，現行適用的法規是內政部消防署提升儲能系統消防安全管理指引，它的規範是for 20千瓦的儲能場，但是以現行規劃的牛潮埔儲能場來講，它是170百萬瓦，也就是它是原本這個消防指引的8,500倍，你拿一個低階的、針對20千瓦系統的消防指引，用在170百萬瓦的儲能場上面，這個對嗎？而且依照舊有的指引是距離建築物、停車場、公共設施30公尺以上，那個是舊有的指引，可以用在8,500倍更大的儲能場的消防指引上嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：委員，消防署他們規定的是多少以上都要受規範啦！當時在檢討這個部分的時候，有關跟建築物的安全距離要怎麼去規範，那時候都有做了一些檢討。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，我再講一次好不好？次長，不要這樣子扯，我再講一次，原本的消防指引它的應對是20千瓦的儲能系統，但是我們現在儲能場的設置，以牛潮埔來講是170百萬瓦，所以是原本法源它所針對的20千瓦的8,500倍，如果一個8,500倍容量的儲能場，你還是用原本的消防指引，我想這個任誰都沒有辦法接受吧！光是儲能裡面的鋰電池用量，它就跟以前遠遠不同嘛！你用同一套標準，這個是不是有問題？這個部分麻煩你們要注意，其實我也跟消防署講過，但目前我還沒有得到任何的回應，任何回應都沒有！我曾經還找過他們到我辦公室，也沒有任何回應，但這個是民眾非常注意的，有幾個鋰電池廠曾經爆炸過，包括韓國，它造成的危害，你們可以去查一下資料，非常的嚴重！針對這些儲能場，現在我跟他們詢問，他們說裡面主要的電池也是鋰電池啊！鋰就是一個高活性金屬，這念過化學的人都懂，這是一個有風險的東西，如果它的消防指引是以前8,500分之1的那種容量的指引，能夠用在現在嗎？不能都沒有任何的動作啦！","我想請問一下次長，這個狀況你們有沒有任何的因應機制？就是儲能場的容量不斷在擴張，你們有沒有什麼想法？"],["連次長錦漳：這個我們跨部會在檢討啦！關於剛才委員所講的，其實現在有一些新的儲能櫃，新的儲能櫃它有防爆防火的功能，我們現在也在積極發展這些比較新型的儲能櫃，現在有一些廠商已經有量產出來，我們最後會導引到這樣的儲能櫃，相對的安全性就會比現在的container提高很多。至於委員講的跟消防有關的部分，我們還會再來跟他們做一些確定。"],["吳委員宗憲：我上個會期已經找過消防署，麻煩你們要注意，不可能容量變大那麼多，體積變大那麼多，結果你們還是用同一套消防指引嘛！"],["連次長錦漳：好，我知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，這次新任的這位經濟部長，當時業界也有人講他本身原本的集團也是投資太陽能光電，所以他應該會非常的理解，經濟部長一定非常理解太陽能光電在做什麼、有什麼風險、有什麼未來性，但是連最基本的儲能場，甚至饋線都搞不定，那我也不知道這樣下去要怎麼辦。然後我們所有太陽能的發展完全都跟不上原本經濟部告訴大家的，建設比例遠遠落後，到現在好像只有136百萬瓦，原本是預計可以到200萬瓦對不對？我印象中是這樣。","最後就是我剛剛一直講的，千萬不要只用行政命令來處理這件事情，我強烈建議趕快讓專法出來，而且這個問題已經這麼久了，到現在專法都還沒有出來，其實是滿離譜的，國家竟然可以讓所有的建設走在法律之前，到處建設了一大片，然後還有開槍、還有一堆弊案，結果沒有任何專法可以規範，然後現在你告訴我們只有一些行政命令可以用，就法位階而言，它只是最低位階的命令，它不到法位階耶！這個麻煩次長能夠再趕快處理一下。"],["連次長錦漳：電業法修完之後位階就會往上提高。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然啊，法位階我們念法律的很清楚，憲法、法律、命令嘛！你用最低位階的行政命令在處理這件事情，難怪大家各唱各的調，對不對？這個部分我們還是會繼續追，我想包括國民黨黨團在內，全民應該都很在意這個能源的議題，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝次長。"],["主席：請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","請賴士葆、賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156927","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156927","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b2307d011a3141670fd7b6b5cb373b4dd76f857e4235ff500ebd3dc688115573a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:44:53 - 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bicyclone我是覺得說還是會層出不窮所以剛剛林委員講的我覺得這一點真的我也非常贊同而且我在前陣子又看到一個報導可能就是那個光電這個可能一些外商在做光電他可能還要額外去附一些地方的這個"},{"start":59.522,"end":74.042,"text":"公關費用所以讓他們覺得說要在臺灣投資這個他們玩不下去所以我覺得說部長真的這件事要非常的鄭重來正視這個議題那部長是不是你再回應一下好謝謝委員那剛剛"},{"start":75.503,"end":102.586,"text":"謝謝林委員還有委員的這個指教那我以後會絕對會妥善的來處理那我再次重申就是說旅館業、文教業還有這種所謂的太陽光店未來的處理還是收回中央那未來呢我們希望花一年的時間因為我目前在3、4月的時候環境部已經委託15個地方來幫助這個旅館業的這個環評審核那目前只有兩個案例我希望到明年年底我們配合環評總體檢"},{"start":104.207,"end":130.231,"text":" »: 全部再來看過一次當然地方我覺得地方他們已經有一些環評能力是不錯但是的確委員說到的一個問題我也看到了所以我們未來會從體檢之後明年完整希望年底的時候再來看一次要做怎麼樣的分工因為如果沒有地方的這種監督其實都靠中央的人力一方面要這個環評一方面要監督這個人力是沒有辦法做得到那麼精準的我希望中央跟地方要一起合作"},{"start":131.732,"end":153.514,"text":"接下來我想請教部長就是我們在那個環境部12號就是預告修正水污費的這個收費辦法那有新增加安淡然後新洗收費的項目那我想請教就是說其實目前這個安淡是河川中重度污染核斷主要的因素這個污染項目"},{"start":154.395,"end":176.723,"text":"那我想請教的就是其實我們也看到台灣的很多河川都是受到污染的我相信部長你這陣子你也時常跑地方嘛那你看到地方有很多河川你看了你也會覺得說我們到國外去看到河川是很乾淨的可是台灣的河川確實是這個"},{"start":180.114,"end":181.155,"text":" bicyclist"},{"start":200.094,"end":224.821,"text":"那電渡廠他可能直接把水直接灌到地下水區那後來在2013年就有這個檢察官帶隊然後去搜然後確定那也罰也開罰了那罰了1億多那其實我覺得在最近在今年還是有抓到就是有業者他也是非法排放那甚至他的孽是超標超標到這個400多倍"},{"start":227.242,"end":248.577,"text":"那類似這樣子我是想要請教部長因為目前經濟部也好他們也在鼓勵這些電鍍業者應該是要往這個章濱這個淪為區有一個電鍍區就是往這邊走希望能夠就是遷到那邊去那我們也看到一個狀況就是說這個工業區這個污水管理"},{"start":255.115,"end":281.46,"text":"這個工業區的污水管理我們發現就是說這個環境污染的這個裁罰總額是這個工業區是被裁罰的大戶就像這個經濟部的這個管理的桃園、觀音、大園還有中壢的這個工業區那這個觀音的部分16年這個被罰了160多次那總額是將近這個台幣1億那我想請教就是說各個工業區的這個水"},{"start":282.7,"end":283.561,"text":"環境部你應該要怎麼去督導這件事?"},{"start":311.852,"end":337.121,"text":"包委員 這個我請我們司長來回答謝謝謝謝委員關心這件事情我想工業區基本上它有一個經濟部有一個延期管理局他負責這個區內工業區設有專用污水下水道系統的一個相關的一個監督管理跟計畫的一個補助有些工業區基本上它的一個區內事業的廢污水特性基本上就相對複雜"},{"start":338.041,"end":360.849,"text":"所以它的污水處理的一個操作的量能基本上有不足的現象所以呢這個沿管局它目前的一個做法就是會針對這一個需要改善的呢它有一些透過ROT的方式再引入外界的一個資源公司協力跟這個技術的能力來改善它的污水處理設備但是我們覺得說除了污水處理設備的一個提升之外"},{"start":361.449,"end":379.974,"text":"更大的問題是區內事業的一個管理也就是說區內事業要符合納管限值做排放然後透過一個專用的污水下水道系統送到污水處理場來處理所以區內事業的一個納管常常是會有超排的現象那超排之後呢造成這個污水處理場的負荷突變"},{"start":380.674,"end":381.054,"text":"您現在已經開始做了嗎?"},{"start":410.376,"end":410.416,"text":" »:是,好。"},{"start":439.386,"end":463.945,"text":"我希望就是說應該是要從我們自己可以管的這個工業區應該是經濟部工業區然後跟你們應該要互相合作因為他放流出去了然後超標罰錢罰錢就沒事了嘛所以我覺得這一件我後面我還會繼續追啦另外我想請教就是說彰化還是有很多都是喝地下水"},{"start":464.605,"end":493.559,"text":" bicy 很多都還喝地下水而且我們一直在申請就是說希望這個無自來水地區的民眾能夠這個中央政府政府能夠持續能夠自來水的接管可是很可惜就是說這個速度還是蠻慢的那我想請教就是說我剛剛有講章化這個電鍍電鍍業者就是在這幾年是希望他們能夠簽到這個電鍍專區啦那還是有一些他是沒辦法簽就是說他"},{"start":494.56,"end":495.901,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告業務．"},{"start":518.882,"end":520.203,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":546.025,"end":547.046,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":566.64,"end":570.222,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告業務．"},{"start":585.128,"end":586.509,"text":"中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":607.389,"end":608.19,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":631.886,"end":635.588,"text":"華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案2案"},{"start":658.699,"end":676.951,"text":"謝謝委員的意見其實我還沒有上任之前有一些環工風險的專家就跟我講過這個問題我也很樂意找時間我再全面的瞭解然後可能要整合很多的部會包括農水署等等還有經濟部等等所以我們會來做這個事情再委員再給我一點點時間謝謝好謝謝那繼續加油謝謝好謝謝黃新光委員的發言下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1648,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時44分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，就剛剛林委員講的，我們最近也看到，不論是彰化或雲林，鄉長和代表會主席都涉入光電弊案，所以我非常贊同剛剛林委員講的，確實一些環評應該是中央要來主導，而不是交給地方，如果地方的權限太大，這種弊端還是會層出不窮，所以剛剛林委員講的這一點，我真的也非常贊同，而且我在前一陣子又看到一個報導，有一些在做光電的外商，可能還要額外去付一些地方的公關費用，讓他們覺得要在臺灣投資這個，他們玩不下去。所以我覺得，部長，真的要非常鄭重地來正視這個議題，那部長你是不是再回應一下？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。謝謝林委員和黃委員的指教，我以後絕對會妥善地來處理。我再次重申，旅館業、文教業和太陽光電未來的處理，還是收回中央，未來我們希望花一年的時間，因為在3月、4月的時候，環境部已經委託15個地方來幫助旅館業做環評整合，目前只有兩個案例，我希望到明年年底，我們配合環評總體檢，全部再來看過一次。當然地方已經有一些環評能力是不錯，但是委員說到的一個問題我也看到了，所以我們未來總體檢之後，希望年底再來看一次要做什麼樣的分工，因為如果沒有地方的監督，都靠中央的人力，一方面要做環評，一方面要監督，以我們的人力，是沒有辦法做得到那麼精準的，我希望中央跟地方要一起合作。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。好。那接下來我想請教部長，環境部在本月12日預告修正水污費的收費辦法，有新增加氨氮、鋅、錫等收費的項目，目前氨氮是河川中重度污染河段主要的污染項目，那我想請教的是，其實我們也看到臺灣很多河川都是受到污染的，部長這一陣子也時常跑地方，你看到地方有很多河川，我們到國外去看到河川是很乾淨的，可是臺灣的河川確實是很髒，河水的顏色跟正常的顏色真的差很多。我們看工業區，以彰化為例，彰化以前有很多電鍍廠，電鍍廠可能直接把廢水灌到地下水去，在2013年就有檢察官帶隊去搜查，罪證確定，也開罰了，罰了一億多，在今年還是有抓到業者非法排放，甚至查到鎳含量超標，超標四百多倍。目前經濟部也在鼓勵這些電鍍業者遷往彰濱工業區，就是崙尾區有一個電鍍區，希望能夠遷到那邊去。我們也看到一個狀況，就是工業區的污水管理，在環境污染的裁罰總額中，工業區是被裁罰的大戶，就像經濟部管理的桃園的觀音、大園、中壢的工業區，觀音工業區在16年被罰了一百六十多次，總額將近臺幣一億。各個工業區的污水處理，很多工業區都是委外處理，其實工業區管理中心應該也要負起監督的責任，屢屢發生這樣子的情形，針對這一部分，經濟部的工業區應該要自己負起責任，那環境部應該要怎麼去督導這件事？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個我請我們司長來回答。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["王司長嶽斌：謝謝委員關心這個事情，工業區基本上有一個經濟部園區管理局，負責工業區所設專用污水下水道系統的監督管理跟計畫的補助，有一些工業區區內事業的廢污水特性相對複雜，污水處理的操作量能基本上有不足的現象，所以園管局目前的做法就是針對需要改善的部分，透過ROT的方式，引入外界的資源，公私協力，增進技術的能力，來改善污水處理設備。但是我們覺得，除了污水處理設備的提升之外，更大的問題是區內事業的管理，也就是說，區內事業要符合納管現值來排放，然後透過一個專用的污水下水道系統，送到污水處理場來處理，所以區內事業的納管，常常會有超排的現象，超排之後，造成污水處理廠的負荷，變化變異太大，然後這個污水處理的操作常常會有當掉的問題，所以我們有提出建議，我們也開過一個協調會，開過一個研商會，討論怎麼樣來整合現有的技術，特別是感測的技術，怎麼樣在源頭來做納管的監控，透過污水下水道系統的收集，然後來做一些相關的溯源追蹤，讓區內事業符合納管現值。"],["黃委員秀芳：那你們現在已經開始做了嗎？"],["王司長嶽斌：這個部分我們已經開始在做一個類似AIoT的試辦，我們也了解到園管局在土城工業區有類似的試辦，我們正在追蹤試辦的情形跟效果，至於怎麼樣複製這樣子的科技執法，結合我們的相關稽查管制，來輔導協助我們區內事業管理機構的管理。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。應該是要從我們自己可以管的工業區，應該是經濟部工業區，然後跟你們應該要互相合作，因為污水放流出去了，然後污染物超標罰錢，罰錢就沒事了嗎？這一件事我後面還會繼續追。","另外，我想請教，彰化還是有很多地方都是喝地下水，彰化很多地方都還是喝地下水，而且我們一直在申請，希望中央政府能夠持續協助無自來水地區的民眾，做自來水的接管，可是很可惜，速度還是滿慢的，我剛剛有講到彰化電鍍業者，在這幾年，我們希望他們能夠遷到電鍍專區，還是有一些沒辦法遷，雖然有合法申請，但還是沒辦法遷，還是有偷排的狀況，所以我想請教，這樣子偷排的狀況造成我們彰化的農地污染，我記得我在前幾年針對農地污染的部分一直在追蹤，我們政府環境部這邊也編了一大筆錢來整治污染的農地，在這幾年也幾乎全部都已經解禁了，就是回歸農地，但如果源頭沒有控管的話，農地還是會繼續受到污染，你知道嗎？就像彰化的東西二圳，兩邊有很多農地工廠，如果源頭我們沒有去管控的話，這些受污染的農地還是會持續受到污染，我們看到彰化縣政府一下子解禁了，然後農地一下子又受到污染了，解禁之後這些農地所種出來的農產品，其實大家都會擔心，所以我在這邊也是要請部長針對這一部分，管控源頭也是要跨部會來做，不是只有一個環境部可以做到的，這個一定要跨部會來做。而且我們看到彰化幾乎一半以上目前都還是使用地下水，如果地下水一直受到污染的話，其實對國民的健康會有很大的影響，你看，這個是家裡面使用水的過濾器，可能幾個禮拜就要換濾心，然後你看這種過濾出來的水，其實大家都很擔心。所以我在這邊還是要提醒，部長，環境部要做的事情真的是非常多，不論是空氣污染、垃圾的問題、水的問題，那這個水的問題我覺得確實要做跨部會的溝通，不論是經濟部、內政部，我覺得這個一定要跨部會的溝通，而且彰化地下水這個問題真的大家都會擔心，兩、三個禮拜濾心就要換一次，民眾長期使用這樣的水，身體健康確實會受到很大的影響。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的意見。其實我還沒有上任之前，有一些環工風險的專家就跟我講過這個問題，那我也很樂意找時間再全面瞭解，然後這個可能要整合很多部會，包含農水署、經濟部等等，所以我們會來做這個事情，委員再給我一點點時間，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝，繼續加油，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言。","下一位我們請洪申翰委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 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1,"text":"所以你們你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎?報告委員這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住但是我們必須跟委員報告因為環評有審查還有監督那監督很大一部分也在地方那當然有些地方很弱但是有些地方是有能力它的標準規格已經環境不一樣大多數都很弱"},{"start":833.792,"end":858.272,"text":"而大多數的觀光產業很弱的地方觀光產業財團的勢力都很大地方政府都很願意配合東部沒有東部沒有這次是美麗灣不是東部嗎花蓮台東宜蘭都沒有委託你是事辦計畫沒有委託啦你們以後下放就全部都放出去了我現在跟你講不是只有觀光旅館業太陽光店的環評審查權也下放給地方也都收回來了"},{"start":869.726,"end":892.415,"text":"所以啊當初你們是太天真還是要餵虎作倉從2020年到現在各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長民代甚至議長所會的案件而雲林兩位議長他們拿錢所會的理由是什麼"},{"start":895.25,"end":895.73,"text":"公務及基金預算"},{"start":913.052,"end":926.851,"text":"而且已經起訴這麼多事實上被業者進行勒索這麼多你們如果不是在這裡立委質詢如果不是社會上反彈你們已經公告還要繼續全部下放給地方政府"},{"start":929.254,"end":943.653,"text":"兩、檢察中長閑泰昭隆表示,綠能產業申請流程繁瑣,各地方政府審查標準不一,導致審核公務機關財量權過大,勾結地方勢力及民意代表甚至向廠商索賄。"},{"start":945.54,"end":952.347,"text":"啊這種東西大家都知道膝蓋想都知道你怎麼還會下放繼續下放而且還把大規模的繼續下放把本來中央把關的大面積的開發案繼續下放呢那你怎麼讓我看到過"},{"start":964.258,"end":975.573,"text":"你不要說現在你收回來了啦你當初怎麼會這樣做決策部長你也說說看怎麼會這樣做是太天真還是餵虎作倉是笨還是壞"},{"start":978.441,"end":998.325,"text":"報告員,當時的決策我相信有一點時空背景,那這個事情我必須說有一段時序的,那我並沒有參與的太多,那也跟各個委員致歉,但是目前我也跟委員保證我會全面收回來,有專項處理。你沒有參與的太多?這是什麼意思?"},{"start":1002.133,"end":1006.378,"text":"你只要投資一個100公頃的太陽光電廠案廠投資金額要多少錢嗎?100公頃?報告委員因為過去的光電廠並沒有在特別做環評這次我們才把他納進來的不是啦這個我們知道啦但我們要求納入環評的中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積欸"},{"start":1019.634,"end":1031.724,"text":"我們管的是那個山坡地15公尺對啊大面積的啊15公尺很大欸是那你在這種狀況裡面你這種東西暗場一開發投資要幾十億欸然後你把他的生死大權交到前科雷雷的地方政府手上然後現在被罵了你又收回去我就問你說當初你怎麼會思考到要把他交給地方政府為什麼"},{"start":1050.987,"end":1072.94,"text":"蛤?你講不出來喔?當初你們怎麼思考的?你把環境的權限下放給地方會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的這些額外的成本難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策讓正派的業者卻步而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎?而我們總統2030年再生能源發電比要到30%你覺得"},{"start":1080.384,"end":1099.77,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":1099.949,"end":1126.803,"text":"你以為這樣比較快卻是欲速則不達你說要健全環境審查制度提升政府效能然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達所以在這裡我們最後要問你就是說你口口聲聲說要強化地方跟地方中央跟地方政府分工而你說你要下放了以後你中央的監督機制沒有看到你出了問題了你介入了機制安全線沒有看到"},{"start":1127.623,"end":1152.401,"text":"地方環評的量能配套你們沒有評估也沒有給資源然後呢各地方政府現在就環評制度的不一致啊他們審查連這個審查程序都不一致連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢"},{"start":1153.8,"end":1154.781,"text":"disciplinary?"},{"start":1154.781,"end":1182.458,"text":"那像美麗灣現在開發單位買回去了變成是台東縣政府然後他要做環評審查你們要如何避免利益衝突所以這個環境部升格不是為了讓你們甩鍋啦而是要讓你更積極去守護台灣的環境然後當年就是因為地方政府這樣這麼重大的缺失以美麗灣為例真的是違法亂紀耶地方政府"},{"start":1184.236,"end":1196.828,"text":"這個天高皇帝園啊法律是法律如無啊才會衍生了後續十幾年的爭議你們不但沒有加強把關反而要全面放寬管制"},{"start":1198.029,"end":1218.234,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":1218.855,"end":1235.45,"text":"參與你參與不多然後讓他們在在每個領域在每個每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎部長你要承諾一下報告委員這個當時這個有前因後果吼那也前因是啥後果是什麼你就前因後果四個字就搪塞了前因是啥後果是什麼"},{"start":1239.827,"end":1255.697,"text":"您在這裡就跟立委說這有前因後果,前什麼因後什麼果啊,講出來啊。 有一個時間序列,那我在這個五個月當中對這個參與比較少,也跟委員做一個致歉。那未來像類似的情形絕對不會再發生,這邊跟委員保證。"},{"start":1256.437,"end":1281.41,"text":"你不能只是講碳費啦只是講這個碳交易啦這個是最重要環境部最核心的業務在這裡不是只有碳費委員這個您不用懷疑我對環境的這個堅持那當然這個事件處理的不周也跟委員致歉那我未來保證一定會嚴格的管理"},{"start":1281.87,"end":1287.354,"text":"我就跟你再分享最後一句話環境部的核心業務就在這裡也在廢棄物管理然後也當然還有碳廢所以你不能偏私啦你要花的時間要一樣多謝謝委員指教謝謝好謝謝林書恩委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1570,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時23分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，最近你們預告修正環評法施行細則，大家都在問，因為大家長期以來所關注的，比如說老舊環評要退場，環現差只做一次，比如說環境監測還有督察的資料你們都沒有公開，比如說採礦的要不要納入管理，這些細節的討論你們統統沒有優先去做，社會所高度關注的你們沒有做，而你們現在陷立法院於不義、陷我們衛環委員會於不義的是說，你們因為今年3月衛環委員會通過臨時提案，立法院的臨時提案你們曾幾何時會這麼地重視？你們說臨時提案要求「開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準」，立法院要求你們做修正，可是大家都知道立法院要求的是你們要從嚴，結果你陷我們衛環委員會於不義，你把我們要求要從嚴去修正的，你給它放寬了，然後說這是立法院提案要求的，你給我們立法院衛環委員會的委員「裝肖仔」！這是陷我們衛環於不義，然後去行你們要放寬之實啊！","今天在這裡，我們對於你打算把觀光旅館及旅館、文教設施、光電等開發的這一些環評權限，你把本來要中央審的這些項目全部都開放，下放給地方審查，被媒體披露以後，像剛才王育敏委員質詢你也是這樣子，觀光旅館業你也是這樣子，被媒體披露以後你就說好，旅館開發我暫時不下放了，然後王育敏質詢了光電產業以後，你就說好，30公頃以上的我暫時也不下放了，我覺得部長，上一次我問你，你也都是這種態度，如果在立法院沒有開會，如果民意上沒有反彈，你們就把不應該下放的全部下放掉，不應該開放的開放了，等到有人反彈你再縮回去，我就有點懷疑，這是彭部長的風格嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不是的啦！"],["林委員淑芬：你一向走來一直都這樣子，本來我對你是高度肯定，因為你認真，看起來認真又專業，而且好像有心要做一點作為，可是在這種大家看起來最不應該放水、最不應該放鬆的地方，你老是先放寬放鬆了，然後再縮回去，被人家罵了再縮回去，這一點讓你的專業、能力、認真打折扣。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的指教，其實在今年年初的時候，環境部就已經要委託給15個地方做這件事情，然後他們也通過了。"],["林委員淑芬：年初的時候，所以不是因為立法院的臨時提案要求的囉！你剛才在回答其他立委的時候，你說的是因為立法院要求，現在你又不是了，你現在又說是因為你們自己早就在評估了，要下放了。"],["彭部長啓明：那時候是委託給15個地方在做這個。"],["林委員淑芬：所以我問你的是，你本來就在準備要下放給地方了，就旅館業而言，不是因為立法院要求的嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：當時有一部分是立法院要求這個施行細則要更明確化。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你在這裡都亂講，其實年初的時候，你們施行了什麼東西？就是觀光旅館業的開發環評下放給地方去審理，是吧？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["林委員淑芬：反應怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：我請司長來回答。"],["林委員淑芬：不用，我幫你回答。事實上你們說要健全環評審查制度，提升政府治理效能，結果你們把中央的項目，你們在今年年初就試辦，交給地方政府去做，然後就只有審了2個案子，全臺灣二十幾個縣市，只審了2個案子，然後你們就說審起來效果不錯啊！執行狀況尚無不妥啊！所以應該把觀光旅館業全部都交給地方政府，可是這個是事實嗎？這個是事實嗎？","你們在8月21日邀請了地方縣市政府環保局進行環評施行細則的座談會，就是這一些要下放給地方，地方的反應是什麼？部長，你知道嗎？不知道？我唸給你聽，第一個，新北市政府環保局說，分工表原意係指考量開發行為對環境衝擊的大小不同進行分工，除了考量環境敏感區域外，也考量到開發規模大小來定分工，本次分工表的修正，就是你們要下放給地方政府森林遊樂區育樂設施的開發、觀光旅館業的開發、文教設施的開發，全數下放改為地方權責，新北市環保局建議，仍應以對環境衝擊大小為考量來劃定分工，新北市政府不同意。","苗栗縣環保局它也講，考量到地方人力不足，倘屬中央目的事業主管機關核發許可的案件，是否應一併調整回中央審查？地方環保局人力缺乏，如果你沒有考量到給我們經費或人力以解決地方人力、財力不足的困擾，現未補助經費或人力協助，卻持續增加業務到地方環保局造成負擔，所以鈞部欲修法未考慮到地方人力負擔等需求，就將案件下放地方，他們不同意。","宜蘭縣政府環保局他們也建議，依開發規模調整，降低地方政府行政負荷。","新竹縣地方環保局也認為，你們升格為環境部，地方業務隨之增加，你們的升格多了人、多了錢，可是把這些業務下放給地方，你還要求它為了能夠有效管理環評案件，清查老舊環評，並包含例行的環評判定，應否實施環評案件認定與日益增加的開發案件需求，進行環評審查及監督等業務，地方政府人力已經明顯不足，請鈞部再行考量上述原因，重新調整權責分工，並考慮是否補助地方政府相關經費或人力，以提升環評相關作業。","包括臺南市環保局他們也講，實務上太陽光電開發案鮮少有30公頃以上，且申請開發過程涉及的行政程序、權管機關、利益層面甚廣，地方主管機關難以把關，建議仍維持現行規定。","你們從年初自己的試行計畫，到假借立法院臨時提案之名，要把光電產業、觀光旅館產業下放給地方政府，而絕大多數的地方政府都反對這一個修法方向，8月底人家開完會跟你這樣講，你們一意孤行，10月份就預告了這個草案，要推卸責任、推卸工作的時候效率很高，我想部長你應該不知道這件事啦！"],["彭部長啓明：所以我知道這個情況，全面瞭解了之後，我已經把3個全部收回來。"],["林委員淑芬：所以你的業務單位是欺上瞞下哦！地方政府的意見沒有給你知道，然後你看一看就說可行，因為他說2個試辦的案件沒有困難，可行，然後你就聽了，然後你就公告預告了，是這樣子嗎？可是你知道嗎？真正的問題不只是這樣子，真正的問題是你的業務單位改了環評法施行細則以後，大開後門，人家在質疑你是為了美麗灣在解套！為了財團開發在解套！環評權限全部下放給地方審查，不是只有敏感地區要由中央認定，必要的時候收回這幾句話而已，不是！美麗灣渡假村，你知道這影響多大嗎？你看了報導了。"],["彭部長啓明：知道。"],["林委員淑芬：你現在知道這個不是單純的環評爭議，它澈底地暴露了地方環評制度系統性的缺陷，如果不是環團站出來，不是社會人士有反對，你們本來就要在錯誤的基礎上，在制度系統性的缺陷上，還要再下放給地方政府。當初臺東縣政府說美麗灣不到1公頃，不用環評，它怎麼搞烏龍的？它怎麼搞的你記得嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我依稀記得。"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼搞的？"],["彭部長啓明：就是地方有地方的勢力。"],["林委員淑芬：它的開發面積好幾公頃，然後它說這個建築基地不到1公頃所以免環評，這樣子可以叫環評，環評可以這樣做嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這件事情在流程當中有很多時間的序列，那我們有在這個子法裡面……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講這個，部長，你聽好哦！"],["彭部長啓明：我知道、我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：開發的環評與否應該以開發全面積為主，舉臺東縣政府這個例子可以證明，臺東縣政府當時就敢恣意妄為，違法亂紀，不依法行政，而且是這樣子護航業者，然後直到大家民意反對，2007年中央，欸！從2005年拖到2007年中央才發文糾正，然後臺東縣政府才說好吧！那我要求他們做環評，結果環評過程粗糙到令人髮指，程序黑箱，拒絕公民參與，環評委員都只有環工、土木背景，沒有海洋生態，沒有文化人類學，沒有相關社會人文領域的專家，所以導致2012年最高行政法院判決他們所做的環評違反環評法無效定讞，而離譜的是，臺東縣政府沒有反省，現在臺東縣政府沒有思考如何確實改善環評的品質，反而是要重啟環評欸！所以看到這個我們才知道這種東西你沒有收緊交回到中央來審查，環境敏感區、動物保護區、濕地、自然保育區開發面積大，你不但沒有收回中央來把關，你反而還要再繼續下放，這能看嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我在這件事情發生的時候已經知道這樣的過程，如果這個過程思慮不周，跟委員致歉，但是我們目前……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要跟我致歉，這不是我個人的事啊！"],["彭部長啓明：也報告委員，目前已經全部都收回來了，然後我們未來環評總體檢的時候，在明年統一再做一個討論。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！如果大家沒有站出來或是沒看到，或者不是你，然後你下面的人這樣子欺上瞞下，你知道你打算放寬環評標準的同時，臺東縣政府現在完成了美麗灣的委外招標哦！它花了6.29億去把一個環評不可能通過的案子買回到臺東縣政府手上，然後它現在又OT出去，它用文教設施為名去OT，文教設施你有沒有下放了？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：有啦！怎麼會沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，報告委員，這個全部都收回來了，我已經宣布了。"],["林委員淑芬：文教設施跟住宿旅館會不會有爭議？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那3個東西我今天已經有宣布全部都收回來了。"],["林委員淑芬：還會不會有爭議啊？臺東縣政府打算以文教設施之名行觀光住宿之實，還要這樣子搞下去，然後惹到爭議再去訴訟，所以你把所有的漏洞都堵住了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個漏洞我絕對會全力來堵住，但是我們必須跟委員報告，因為環評有審查，還有監督，監督很大一部分也在地方，當然有些地方很弱……"],["林委員淑芬：他們有能力嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：但是有些地方是有能力，它的標準規格也跟環境部一樣。"],["林委員淑芬：大多數都很弱，而大多數很弱的地方的觀光產業，財團的勢力都很大，地方政府都很願意配合。"],["彭部長啓明：東部沒有、東部沒有，這一次沒有委託。"],["林委員淑芬：美麗灣不是東部嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：花蓮、臺東、宜蘭都沒有委託。"],["林委員淑芬：你是試辦計畫沒有委託啦！你們以後下放就全部都放出去了！我現在要跟你講，不是只有觀光旅館業，太陽光電的環評審查權也下放給地方政府。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，也都收回來了，也都收回來了，真的。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有分面積，全部？當初……"],["彭部長啓明：15公頃。"],["林委員淑芬：所以啊！當初你們是太天真，還是要為虎作倀？從2020年到現在，各地方檢察署已經偵辦且起訴多位地方首長、民代甚至議長索賄的案件，而雲林兩位議長，他們拿錢索賄的理由是什麼？回饋地方，他打點地方黑白兩大勢力，那個錢都是在做這個的，所以你就知道他們有能力把關嗎？用膝蓋想也知道，地方政府就是亂搞的始作俑者，而且已經起訴這麼多，事實上對業者進行勒索這麼多，如果不是在這裡立委質詢，如果不是社會上反彈，你們已經公告，還要繼續全部下放給地方政府。","連檢察總長邢泰釗都表示，綠能產業申請流程繁瑣，各地方政府審查標準不一，導致審核公務機關裁量權過大，勾結地方勢力及民意代表，甚至向廠商索賄，這種東西大家都知道，膝蓋想都知道，你怎麼還會繼續下放，而且還大規模地繼續下放，把本來中央把關的大面積開發案繼續下放呢？你怎麼有辦法看得過去？你不要說現在你收回來了，你當初怎麼會這樣做決策？部長，你也說說看，怎麼會這樣做？是太天真還是為虎作倀？是笨還是壞？部長，你說說看。"],["彭部長啓明：當時的決策我相信有一定的時空背景，這件事情我必須說，它是有一段時序的，我並沒有參與得太多，也跟各委員致歉，但是目前我也跟委員保證，我們會全面收回來，由中央處理，但是……"],["林委員淑芬：你沒有參與得太多，這是什麼意思？你知道投資一個100公頃的太陽光電案場，投資金額要多少錢嗎？100公頃。"],["彭部長啓明：因為過去的光電廠並沒有特別做環評，這一次我們才把它納進來的。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，這個我們知道啦，但我們要求納入環評的，中央管的都是幾十公頃的大面積。"],["彭部長啓明：我們管的是山坡地15公頃以上的。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，大面積的啊，15公頃很大耶。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你在這種狀況裡面，這種東西，案場一開發，投資要幾十億欸。然後你把生死大權交到前科累累的地方政府手上，現在被罵了，你又收回去，我就會問你當初你怎麼會思考到要把它交給地方政府，為什麼？你講不出來喔？當初你們怎麼思考的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個有一點前因後果的過程。"],["林委員淑芬：你把環評的權限下放給地方，會讓業者面臨更多的不確定性和多餘的一些額外成本，難道不會削弱政府的能源轉型政策，讓正派的業者卻步，而讓市場的劣幣驅逐良幣嗎？而我們總統說2030年再生能源發電比要到30%，你覺得這些可以做大面積的有規模能力的業者，讓這些地方勢力這樣子敲詐勒索，這樣子會讓正派的業者敢投資嗎？所以你們欲速則不達，你以為這樣比較快，卻是欲速則不達。你說要健全環評審查制度，提升政府效能，然後我們看到你是這樣子欲速則不達，所以在這裡我們最後要問你，你口口聲聲說要強化中央跟地方政府分工，你說你要下放，下放了以後，中央的監督機制沒有看到，出了問題，介入的機制和權限沒有看到，地方環評的量能配套，你們沒有評估，也沒有給資源，各地方政府現在環評制度不一致，他們審查，連這個審查程序都不一致，連民眾能不能參與審查會議都不一致，你要怎麼確保環評審查基準的一致性呢？對不對？像美麗灣，現在開發單位買回去了，變成是臺東縣政府主管，然後它又要做環評審查，你們要如何避免利益衝突？所以環境部升格，不是為了讓你們甩鍋，而是要讓你更積極地去守護臺灣的環境，當年就是因為地方政府這麼重大的缺失，以美麗灣為例，真的是違法亂紀，地方政府天高皇帝遠，視法律如無物，才會衍生後續十幾年的爭議，你們不但沒有加強把關，反而要全面放寬管制，你們這樣做對嗎？部長，雖然現在你們被罵一罵都縮回去了，但是當初你們這樣做對嗎？這是第一個。","第二個，你現在都宣稱你不知道，你沒有參與很多，然後你現在要改，你未來還會這樣子繼續放任業務單位這樣參與嗎？你參與不多，然後讓他們在每個領域，在每個議題上都這樣子搞嗎？部長，你要承諾一下。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，當時有前因後果，那……"],["林委員淑芬：前因是什麼？後果是什麼？你就用「前因後果」四個字就搪塞了，前因是什麼？後果是什麼？你在這裡就跟立委說這個有前因後果，前什麼因？後什麼果？講出來啊！"],["彭部長啓明：有一個時間序列，我在這5個月當中，對這個參與比較少，也跟委員致歉，未來類似的情形絕對不會再發生，在這邊跟委員保證。"],["林委員淑芬：你不能只是講碳費啦！只是講碳交易啦！這個是最重要的，環境部最核心的業務在這裡，不是只有碳費。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不用懷疑我對環境的堅持，這個事件處理不周，也跟委員致歉，我保證未來一定會嚴格管理。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我就跟你再分享最後一句話，環境部的核心業務就在這裡，也在廢棄物管理，當然還有碳費，所以你不能偏私啊。不要頭重腳輕，花的時間要一樣多，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員的發言，謝謝部長。","下一位我們請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 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29那這一次很低迷"},{"start":38.22,"end":63.562,"text":"因為主要的像九大國家他們都沒有參與所以呢讓人感到憂心忡忡是不是覺得說因為川普他的一個降低減碳的承諾會不會影響到未來全球的氣候政策那顯然很多的學者其實也都很悲觀覺得綠色經濟的前景呢是堪慮、瀕危的"},{"start":65.204,"end":71.274,"text":"我們也看到這個市場也確實反映出來因為他一當選"},{"start":73.089,"end":95.776,"text":"做空綠色能源就大賺13億美元讓綠色經濟也是慘賠所以看起來好像真的如此今天想要先請我們金管會主委跟央行總裁表示一下你們的看法跟現在傳得沸沸揚揚的大家的看法一樣嗎?"},{"start":97.034,"end":123.246,"text":"是,報告委員,謝謝委員的關心,我想金管會剛剛頒布了就是我們綠色金融與轉型行動方案很明確的揭示了我們接下來的所有的目標而且我們有關減碳的路徑也都已經在已經成為我們必須遵守的法律跟目標我想這個部分呢即便我們有很多這樣的一個對這次選舉結果的這些的分析但是至少在金管會在那邊我們沒有做任何的改變"},{"start":124.971,"end":144.201,"text":"總裁央行這邊我覺得就是說就我們台灣來講的話稱如彭卓偉所講的基本上這一條路就是說這一條路就是說要green的這一條路台灣應該還是要持續做的"},{"start":145.162,"end":161.542,"text":"還是要持續做不管未來遇到什麼樣的挑戰這是一個正確的方向必須走的方向那實際上也真的不是空穴來風因為他任命的環保署長就是反環保的"},{"start":164.105,"end":181.011,"text":"他第一次當選的時候就退出巴黎協定他在競選的時候他的團隊也說如果再次當選還要再次退出所以他的口號也是嘛你剛剛說Green Green Green他是Drill Baby Drill"},{"start":181.631,"end":182.092,"text":"是是是沒有錯"},{"start":199.268,"end":222.627,"text":"未來他們很多的一些關於氣候法案等等我相信也都會被取消看起來他們的政策走向是這樣我們有我們的政策走向可是我在今天的專報當中金管會、央行只至沒有提到綠色經濟所以我是在想說是不是跟你們剛才的回應一樣你們對於川普的當選"},{"start":225.929,"end":243.949,"text":"覺得對我們現在要走的綠色經濟完全不會有影響,是這樣嗎?是啦,我想最主要的也就是說綠色因為前面的那些因為現在整個的都是在focus就是說焦點都是在他的關稅他的貿易政策"},{"start":245.851,"end":248.794,"text":"貿易政策對全球影響是最重要的第二、當然 Green 這個議題應該也是很重要的不過跟川普的關稅政策相較之下好像是比較次要"},{"start":268.414,"end":271.856,"text":"所以現在就是說包括我們的報告裡面我們也會比較就是focus焦點的就是在貿易政策所以在這一點才不會去提不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯就是說台灣在這個議題上會不會受到他的影響基本上就陳主委彭主委在講"},{"start":289.505,"end":311.392,"text":"那因為央行是管國際進出口貿易全球的景氣嘛通膨嘛這些都是央行是你們要去注意的嘛把關的嘛那金管會當然我們這邊有ESG的一個綠色金融業務那我先請教一下金管會主委就是這樣"},{"start":314.213,"end":330.345,"text":"今晚會下面有個探交易所是剛剛成立對那未來會有什麼衝擊啊因應呢那委員剛剛提到的是說我們現在都是買國外的嘛對我們現在是待會可以請那個交手董事長可以來補充說明喔"},{"start":330.925,"end":353.797,"text":"第一個有關我先回答委員剛剛那個問題就是說為什麼今天我們沒有提到綠色金融的問題因為今天主要是確實剛剛講我們做整體架構的分析並沒有針對個別產業的影響接下來就很多人有提到說比如對綠能軍工或什麼會有不一樣的影響我想今天因為我們的主題沒有涵蓋到這邊剛剛提到委員也提到就是說這個"},{"start":354.818,"end":374.926,"text":"美國畢竟是國際的非常大的一個國家跟影響力他的政策必然會影響到未來很多的發展我剛才說明說我們現在我們的政策沒有改變但是未來在執行這些問題的時候呢一定也會受到一些相關的影響但是我覺得全世界有很多不一樣的看法"},{"start":376.106,"end":400.086,"text":"這本來就是其實美國在過去也很多的政策跟世界是有所不同的因為我們現在環境部我們也都開始要來徵收所謂的對這些都已經開始在我們太有價的時代要來臨了是我們的法律已經規定這樣那我們面對歐盟面對美國他們完全不一樣的一個政策那對於我們現在其實我們算起步很晚"},{"start":400.666,"end":414.491,"text":"那正要開始又面臨這樣的一個大國的衝擊那金管會這邊探交易所有沒有什麼樣的一個因應對策這個都是我們很想了解那沒有關係我是想說我們會來留意這個要給我這樣的一個報告因為我們很多原住民"},{"start":419.352,"end":439.764,"text":"這個對於自然碳會的參與那未來碳有價的時代那我們能夠有什麼樣的一個利機我想這個都是我這個地方很需要了解也要幫我們的族人去看要怎麼樣來協助那我再請教一下就是我們央行因為很多人就擔心嘛"},{"start":440.444,"end":445.586,"text":"就是我們現在碳費會開徵嘛那物價可能大家也預期可能也會上揚嘛那未來像美國如果限縮他的減碳他對於台灣進出口的貿易我們也在評估有沒有什麼優勢還是劣勢那未來他這樣的一個比較利益是不是還存在等等"},{"start":464.132,"end":491.659,"text":"那不曉得總裁這邊您的看法如何因為我們也看到他在加重關稅的部分是全球加重可是中國又特別重60%那偏偏我們的最大出口國家又是中國所以這個部分我們就會去想那未來我們怎麼樣防範中國的低價傾銷那對於我們會不會影響"},{"start":493.855,"end":493.875,"text":"是"},{"start":495.5,"end":521.452,"text":"我想是這樣就是說對中國會不會對我們台灣請消這個我沒有就是說目前我沒有掌握到這個訊息所以我沒辦法來回答委員那至於就是說我們出口到美國去出口到其他的地方去會不會受到就是說這個這個碳減碳的這個影響基本上到美國美國跟"},{"start":524.073,"end":539.765,"text":"跟歐洲就稍微有點不一樣歐洲呢現在已經是他開始他的關稅他就要看就是說你的產品裡面那個含碳的那個成分是多少他要開始要扣這個稅阿美國好像我據我了解好像還沒有"},{"start":541.287,"end":564.204,"text":"這個就是說對於我們的進出國廠商就必須要注意我現在所能夠了解的就只能這樣那他的目的也是希望鼓勵他們自己買國內的嘛對啦另外一個也就是說要鼓勵每一個國家對於這個減碳要積極的去努力的去做那這樣子因為我"},{"start":565.785,"end":589.233,"text":"要跟總裁您說明一下因為勞動部那邊剛剛有一個資料國內五大缺工第一名營建第二名製造然後第三名住宿餐飲第四名批發零售第五名醫療保健社福工作這五名恰恰是原住民從事的前五大行業"},{"start":590.993,"end":609.986,"text":"國內的五大缺工行業的排名跟原住民從事的前五大行業一模一樣那我們來看一下營建工程跟製造業那因為我們也是高度仰賴國外的原料嘛那我不曉得說這個未來這個營建工程業特別是製造業那對我國的影響會是什麼"},{"start":610.606,"end":614.049,"text":"是不是可以請我們央行跟金環會這邊在一個月之內給我提出一個報告"},{"start":638.848,"end":645.443,"text":"好,謝謝總裁、謝謝主委、謝謝主席。是,謝謝立法。那接著請陳益臻召委質詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1203,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時48分）謝謝主席，有請金管會主委及央行總裁。"],["主席：請央行楊總裁及金管會彭主委。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：大家午安！今天財委會特別安排美國新任總統的貿易政策對臺灣可能的影響與對策專報，最主要是因為我們也看到川普一當選，緊接著上場的就是聯合國第29屆氣候大會（COP 29），這一次很低迷，因為主要的九大國家都沒有參與，所以讓人感到憂心忡忡，覺得川普降低減碳承諾會不會影響到未來全球的氣候政策，顯然很多學者其實也都很悲觀，覺得綠色經濟的前景是堪慮、瀕危的，我們看到市場也確實反映出來，因為他一當選，做空綠色能源者就大賺13億美元，綠色經濟也是慘賠，所以看起來好像真的如此。","今天想要先請金管會主委跟央行總裁表示一下，你們的看法跟現在傳得沸沸揚揚的大家的看法一樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，謝謝委員的關心，我想金管會剛剛頒布了綠色金融與轉型行動方案，很明確的揭示我們接下來所有的目標，而且有關減碳的路徑也都已經成為我們必須遵守的法律跟目標，我想這個部分即便我們有很多對這次選舉結果的分析，但是至少在金管會這邊，我們沒有做任何的改變。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那總裁央行這邊？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！我覺得就我們臺灣來講，誠如彭主委所講的，基本上這一條路就是要green，要green的這一條路，臺灣應該還是要持續走的，還是要持續走，不管美國……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不管未來遇到什麼樣的挑戰，這是一個正確的方向，必須走的方向。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。那實際上也真的不是空穴來風啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為他任命的環保署長就是反環保的嘛！他第一次當選的時候就退出巴黎協定了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：他在競選的時候，他的團隊也說，如果再次當選，還要再次退出，所以他的口號也是，你剛才說「green, green, green」，他是「drill, baby, drill」，他要鑽、鑽、鑽嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以真的不是空穴來風，但是看到我們金管會、央行都覺得很有信心，然後也覺得我們的國家走這一條綠色經濟，是一個必須走的道路嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：未來他們很多的一些關於氣候法案等等，我相信也都會被取消。看起來他們的政策走向是這樣，我們有我們的政策走向。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可是在今天的專報當中，金管會、央行沒有隻字提到綠色經濟，所以我在想，是不是跟你們剛才的回應一樣，你們對於川普當選，覺得對我們現在要走的綠色經濟完全不會有影響，是這樣嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，是啦！我想最主要的也就是說綠色，因為前面的那些現在整個都是focus，焦點都是在他的關稅、他的貿易政策，他的貿易政策對全球的影響是最重大的。第二個，還有當然green這個議題應該也是要很重要的啦！不過跟川普的關稅政策相較之下，這個好像是比較次要。現在包括我們的報告裡面，我們會比較focus的焦點就是在貿易政策，所以在這一點才不會去提。不過剛剛委員講的沒有錯，臺灣在這個議題上會不會受到他的影響，基本上就誠如彭主委在講，臺灣是往前的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為央行是管國際進出口貿易，全球的景氣，通膨嘛！這些都是央行，是你們要去注意的、把關的嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那金管會，當然我們這邊有ESG，一個綠色金融業務。我先請教一下金管會主委，金管會下面有個碳交易所。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，剛剛成立。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那未來會有什麼衝擊，因應呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛提到的是說……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們現在都是買國外的嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，待會可以請交易所董事長來補充說明。我先回答委員剛剛那個問題，就是為什麼今天我們沒有提到綠色金融的問題。今天主要是確實如剛才講的，我們做整體架構的分析，並沒有針對個別產業的影響。接下來就是很多人有提到，比如對綠能、軍工為什麼會有不一樣的影響，我想今天我們的主題沒有涵蓋到這邊。剛剛委員也提到，美國畢竟是國際的，非常大的一個國家跟影響力，它的政策必然會影響到未來很多的發展。我剛剛說明現在我們的政策沒有改變，但是未來在執行這些問題的時候，一定也會受到一些相關的影響，但是我覺得全世界有很多不一樣的看法，這本來就是，其實美國在過去，也有很多的政策跟世界是有所不同的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，現在環境部也都開始要來徵收所謂的碳費。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這些都已經開始在按照……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我們碳有價的時代要來臨了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們的法律已經規定這樣，我們就開始做了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們面對歐盟，面對美國，他們完全不一樣的一個政策，對於我們現在……其實我們算起步很晚，正要開始又面臨這樣的一個大國的衝擊，那金管會這邊、碳交易所有沒有什麼樣的因應對策？這個都是我們很想了解的。沒有關係，我是想說……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會來留意這件事情。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，要給我這樣的一個報告。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我們很多原住民對於自然碳匯的參與，未來碳有價的時代我們能夠有什麼樣的一個利基，我想這個都是我這個地方很需要了解的，也要幫我們的族人去看要怎麼樣來協助。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我再請教一下我們央行，因為很多人擔心，就是我們現在碳費會開徵，大家也預期物價可能會上揚，未來像美國，如果限縮它的減碳，它對於臺灣進出口的貿易，我們也在評估，有沒有什麼優勢還是劣勢？未來它這樣的一個比較利益，是不是還存在等等，不曉得總裁這邊，您的看法如何？因為我們也看到，它在加重關稅的部分是全球加重，可是中國又特別重，是60%，偏偏我們的最大出口國家又是中國，所以這個部分我們就會去想，未來我們怎麼樣防範中國的低價行銷，那對於我們會不會影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我想是這樣，中國會不會對我們臺灣傾銷，目前我沒有掌握到這些訊息，所以我沒辦法來回答委員。至於我們出口到美國去，出口到其他的地方去，會不會受到這個減碳的影響？基本上到美國，美國跟歐洲就稍微有點不一樣，歐洲現在已經開始，它的關稅就要看你的產品裡面含碳的那個成分是多少，它要開始扣這個稅。據我瞭解美國好像還沒有，這個就是說我們的進出口廠商就必須要注意，我現在所能夠瞭解的就只能這樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它的目的也是希望，鼓勵他們自己買國內的嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！另外一個也就是說要鼓勵每一個國家，對於這個減碳要積極的、努力的去做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那這樣子，我要跟總裁說明一下，因為勞動部那邊剛剛有一個資料，國內五大缺工，第一名營建，第二名製造，然後第三名住宿、餐飲，第四名批發、零售，第五名醫療保健、社福工作。這五名恰恰是原住民從事的前五大行業，國內的五大缺工行業的排名，跟原住民從事的前五大行業一模一樣。那我們來看一下營建工程跟製造業，因為我們也是高度仰賴國外的原料，我不曉得未來這個營建工程業，特別是製造業，對我國的影響會是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，對啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為這個特別關乎我族人，他們的工作。"],["楊總裁金龍：缺工現在就誠如我所知道的，就是你所列的這個，勞動部所列的這個，確實是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想反正現在時間也到了，這也是我關切的問題，是不是可以請我們央行跟金管會，在一個月之內提出一個報告給我。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝總裁、謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：是，謝謝麗華。接著請陳玉珍召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156924","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156924","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b631878ea8e28b4b82a0d4a4306ab205f76f857e4235ff50091803c53c405139c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"11:50:22 - 11:55:37","影片長度":"00:05:15","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T11:50:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T11:55:37+08:00","duration":315,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.915968750000001,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.269718750000003,"end":11.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.982218750000001,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.38034375,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.84409375,"end":52.478468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.423468750000005,"end":56.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.98409375000001,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.85721875,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.51096875,"end":74.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.28096875,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.95034375,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.67096875,"end":103.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.13284375,"end":105.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.37721875000001,"end":113.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.52784375,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.94909375,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.75034375000001,"end":123.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.16346875,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.90971875000001,"end":152.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.61471875,"end":156.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.79159375,"end":155.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.74909375000001,"end":166.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.76596875,"end":157.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.54534375,"end":190.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.71409375000002,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.29471875000002,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.18409375000002,"end":209.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.75346875000002,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.68971875000003,"end":213.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.61346875,"end":216.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.30096875,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.53284375,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.96534375000002,"end":233.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.53034375000001,"end":239.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.51284375,"end":244.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.23346875000001,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.73534375000003,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.55784375000002,"end":257.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.16409375,"end":278.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.95784375,"end":285.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.72909375,"end":289.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.59346875,"end":289.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.85909375,"end":297.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.99721875,"end":301.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.38471875000005,"end":310.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.55346875000004,"end":301.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.94159375000004,"end":302.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.25284375,"end":312.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.63221875,"end":311.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.23534375,"end":312.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.74159375,"end":313.41659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.903,"end":11.924,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。 請經濟部連次長、能源署、游署長。次長、署長,十月中的時候經濟部有公告,再生能源發展條例修正了再生能源發電設備的範圍。您剛剛沒有老實講出這個部分。其中排除了利用或處理國內一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物轉換為"},{"start":32.749,"end":55.361,"text":"電能的發電設備。」那你們在立法理由有提到,這邊右邊這個排除是因為你們參考了目前國際間只把屬於所謂生物質部分的這個廢棄物料源納入再生能源的範疇。我想先請教這個次長或署長,請問哪些國家目前這麼做?哪些國家目前是這麼做?你們參考國際間的一個做法。可不可以舉幾個例子?"},{"start":60.966,"end":88.759,"text":"國際上的我們再搜尋資料給委員不過國際上我們針對這些像農業廢棄物生殖能這部分大家是採認的但是包含廢塑膠橡膠等等這部分的一般在國際上不採認它為再生能源問題就來了問題就來了既然這些國家都只採用生物質的廢棄物料源那為什麼經濟部這次的草案修正沒有一併修正再生能源發展條例第三條第一項第一款的再生能源定義"},{"start":89.739,"end":101.051,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一般廢棄物及一般失業廢棄物為再生能源範圍。你只是在第十一款法利用一般廢棄物和失業廢棄物的SRF排除在再生能源的發電設備而已。"},{"start":104.498,"end":120.127,"text":"那你自己的立法說明寫得非常清楚國際上只承認這個生物質才能算是再生能源你們講這麼清楚然後不願意面對把再生能源的這個定義弄得更嚴謹你繞道去處理這個發電設備我剛剛程旭就緩緩委員發言發電設備你本末導致投機取巧"},{"start":127.947,"end":130.268,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":145.928,"end":147.77,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":162.649,"end":165.43,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":192.052,"end":212.216,"text":"所以我認為經濟部在沒有交代清楚到底你燒塑膠你剛剛等了很久才回答燒橡膠為什麼不會危害人體健康之前他們是不是不應該被記錄再生能源發展設備就好而是連病網連頓購都不應該甚至燒了還要處罰欸市長你剛剛也避重就輕啊"},{"start":217.551,"end":219.833,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":248.816,"end":266.514,"text":"這個他拿來當作SRF燒的時候現在的相關的規定已經是等同歐盟的規定了。本席在上一期我就提出這個草案喔要求明文將塑膠、橡膠、金屬材質等廢棄物排除在再生能源定義上他們不是再生能源他們不是綠能"},{"start":267.295,"end":285.725,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案,這才是面對SRF的議題應該有的負責任態度。請問署長跟署長,你們要不要重新檢討這次的修正草案。不要只繞道,只處理發電設備。重新檢討什麼叫再生能源。可以嗎?你既然營養了國際間的資料嗎?"},{"start":295.871,"end":297.833,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1154,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（11時50分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部連次長、能源署游署長。"],["主席：請連次長及游署長。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長、署長，10月中的時候，經濟部有公告再生能源發展條例修正了再生能源發電設備的範圍，您剛剛沒有老實講出這個部分，其中排除了利用或處理國內一般廢棄物跟一般事業廢棄物轉換為電能的發電設備，你們在立法理由當中有提到，這個排除是因為你們參考目前國際間只是把屬於生物質部分的廢棄物料源納入再生能源的範疇，我想先請教次長或署長，請問哪些國家目前是這麼做？你們有參考國際間的作法，可不可以舉幾個例子？"],["游署長振偉：國際上的我們再蒐尋資料給委員，不過就國際而言，針對像農業廢棄物生質能這部分，大家是採認的，但是包含廢塑膠、橡膠等等這部分，一般在國際上不採認它為再生能源。"],["陳委員昭姿：問題就來了，既然這些國家都只採用生物質的廢棄物料源，為什麼經濟部這次的草案修正沒有一併修正再生能源發展條例第三條第一項第一款的再生能源定義，限縮一般廢棄物和一般事業廢棄物為再生能源範圍，你只是在第十一款把利用一般廢棄物和事業廢棄物的SRF排除在再生能源的發電設備而已，你自己的立法說明寫得非常清楚，國際上只承認生物質才能算是再生能源，你們講這麼清楚，然後不願意面對把再生能源的定義弄得更嚴謹，你繞道去處理發電設備，我承續剛剛黃委員的發言，你本末倒置、投機取巧啊！"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，沒有，因為國際在談這些再生能源，最後會去跟它的環境效益掛鉤，所以這一次我們修完之後，我剛才也跟黃委員報告過，我們最後是會跟憑證，也就是環境效益去掛鉤，所以我們現在修完之後，是把剛剛講的一般事業廢棄物拿掉，只有留下有關生質能這一塊才符合。"],["陳委員昭姿：你這次只處理發電設備，你沒有重新定義再生能源喔！"],["連次長錦漳：這就是處理它的環境效益這一塊，因為我們如果是這樣做，最後我們發給它的憑證是會被國際所採認的。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，我還是重新再問SRF到底是不是再生能源？環境部跟經濟部為了去化超量的廢棄物，睜眼說瞎話，事實上，如果你把問題丟給AI，你去問ChatGPT，它都知道SRF會產生有害物質。如果你不再限縮再生能源的廢棄物定義，我可以合理認為第三條第一項就是為了留空間給SRF的廠商啦！我認為經濟部在沒有交代清楚燒塑膠、燒橡膠為什麼不會危害人體健康之前，它們並不是不應該被納為再生能源發電設備就好，而是連併網、連躉購都不應該，甚至燒了還要處罰欸！次長，你剛剛也避重就輕啊！"],["連次長錦漳：SRF這確實是要解決一些垃圾的問題，但是垃圾不能放任它無限制的到處去燒，如果說這些東西本身再經過一些處理，而且在一些環境許可下……"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，我的重點是你還要去證明燒塑膠、燒橡膠不會危害人體健康嗎？我想大家都心裡有數吧，吵很久了。"],["連次長錦漳：因為環境部最近已經有把這個……這待會兒可以請環境部來……"],["陳委員昭姿：真的不要再玩文字遊戲，這次你們只處理發電設備……"],["連次長錦漳：沒有、沒有，委員，它拿來當作SRF燒的時候，現在的相關規定已經是等同歐盟的規定了。"],["陳委員昭姿：本席在上會期就已經提出這個草案，要求明文將塑膠、橡膠、金屬材質等廢棄物排除在再生能源定義之外，它們不是再生能源，它們不是綠能，更不應該拿來發電，這才是面對SRF議題應該有的負責任的態度。請問次長跟署長，你們要不要重新檢討這次的修正草案？不要只繞道處理發電設備，整個重新檢討什麼叫再生能源可以嗎？"],["游署長振偉：委員，在再生能源發展條例裡面，我們在探討的是有關再生能源……"],["陳委員昭姿：你既然引用了國際間的資料……"],["游署長振偉：有關於廢棄物怎麼樣轉廢為能，那個是另外一個循環經濟的議題，那可能不在我們再生能源發展條例裡面來處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：你引用一部分嘛，你處理發電設備卻不處理源頭的問題啊！"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，我們整個要連結到綠電跟憑證就是要透過再生能源，我們要認定它是再生能源發電設備，才能再往下去做連結。"],["陳委員昭姿：好啦，我會繼續追蹤，這個很多委員都非常關心啊！謝謝。"],["主席：請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","黃健豪","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","蔡易餘","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文\n修正草案」案、(二)本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(三)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)本\n院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)\n本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；二、審查：\n(一)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員賴士葆\n等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員邱志偉等 22 人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156923","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156923","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bf7098b2ed37d26572a0d4a4306ab205f76f857e4235ff5005427d115afefc0b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:43:50 - 11:50:17","影片長度":"00:06:27","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T11:43:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T11:50:17+08:00","duration":387,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":0.06471875,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.016593750000002,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.437843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.977843750000002,"end":19.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.67346875,"end":21.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.06971875,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25.54596875,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.562843750000003,"end":26.085968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25.883468750000002,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":28.11096875,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.49909375,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.039093750000003,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29.96721875,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.726593750000003,"end":30.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.996593750000002,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":31.570343750000003,"end":32.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":36.025343750000005,"end":37.493468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":38.06721875,"end":38.860343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.508468750000006,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.010343750000004,"end":56.781593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.237218750000004,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.570343750000006,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.439093750000005,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.60034375000001,"end":84.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.43534375,"end":96.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":96.94409375000001,"end":102.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":102.93471875,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.64284375000001,"end":111.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.40159375,"end":118.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.64034375000001,"end":123.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.16346875,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.90096875,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.53784375,"end":131.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.62221875,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.63909375,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.65596875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.11159375,"end":132.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.17034375,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.77721875,"end":139.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.02596875,"end":143.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.67534375,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.80159375,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.88534375,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.98221875000002,"end":149.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.99909375000001,"end":155.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.16284375,"end":169.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.17971875,"end":156.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.16471875000002,"end":174.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.32846875,"end":177.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.60221875000002,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.03221875,"end":183.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.83346875,"end":185.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.97659375,"end":189.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.22909375,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.45221875000001,"end":199.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.37534375,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.64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部連次長。"],["主席：請連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：環境部有代表嗎？"],["主席：環境部的代表？請呂技正。"],["黃委員健豪：次長、技正，這個SRF到底是什麼樣的東西？它是再生能源？它是綠能嗎？聯合國對於再生能源的定義是說補充率高於消耗率的東西叫再生能源，石油、煤、天然氣這些東西，它的消耗率高於補充率，所以當然不是再生能源。那像現在在推的SRF這個東西，就主管機關經濟部的法條而言，它好像還是放在再生能源發展條例裡面，但是SRF的內容是什麼東西？"],["連次長錦漳：我先跟委員報告，這一塊我們是遵循國際的規範以及環境部的定義，這一次在我們再生能源發展條例當中，我們已經把外界在講的一般廢棄物這一塊拿掉了，不適用……"],["黃委員健豪：有嗎？等一下我會跟你討論到法條的部分，我先問定義嘛！"],["呂簡任技正雅雯：報告委員，我們的資源循環署梁副組長是主管廢棄物的，請他來說明。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["梁副組長開忠：跟委員報告，我們的SRF就是廢棄物經過分選、篩選……"],["黃委員健豪：內容是什麼？SRF主要的內容是什麼？它的內容物是什麼？"],["梁副組長開忠：內容物的話，它的來源是廢棄物，是屬於高熱值的廢棄物，是……"],["黃委員健豪：什麼樣的廢棄物是高熱值？"],["梁副組長開忠：高熱值的廢棄物比方說……"],["黃委員健豪：塑膠有沒有？"],["梁副組長開忠：像紙類、木質類、塑膠類等等適燃性的、熱值高的……"],["黃委員健豪：副組長，謝謝。我只是要先了解到底SRF的內容是什麼東西，當然熱值這些我們都很清楚。剛剛次長提到經濟部把SRF排除在躉購費率之外，但是如果我們回到法條本身，今天在看再生能源發展條例裡面，定義什麼是再生能源這個部分，你們在修正條文裡面當然排除了，它不適用所謂的獎勵補助、不適用躉購費率，但是在再生能源的那幾個條次當中，它一樣還是放在再生能源的項次裡面啊！所以它沒有被排除在再生能源之外，在法律條文的定義裡面，它是不是還是依然屬於再生能源？"],["游署長振偉：跟委員報告，有關於再生能源定義裡面還是保留廢棄物這部分，是因為廢棄物也包含了農業廢棄物，所以在後面要適用到優惠的時候，我們就把它做區分，屬於農業廢棄物的部分會回到生質能，而包含廢塑膠、橡膠等等，我們就不再提供躉購的優惠給它，這部分我們就排除掉。"],["黃委員健豪：這我當然清楚，我是說在法律條文上面，現在既然把像SRF這種所謂高熱值的東西，比如說紙、塑膠等等這些有的沒的東西，它不適用躉購費率，但是在再生能源發展條例裡面，如果你還是放在同一個條文裡，那就會誤解嘛！或是未來民間企業在執行業務上，它也屬於再生能源的時候，大家沒辦法區分清楚到底你剛剛提到的像這種生質能的東西，跟紙和塑膠是不是同一件事情？在你的定義裡面，它應該是不同的事情才對啊！今天既然要講法條，那我們就回到法條本身，就是說再生能源應該把SRF這個東西排除在外，而不是繼續放在再生能源的定義裡面。"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，因為再生能源有兩種，一種可能需要憑證，另外一種不需要，那……"],["黃委員健豪：對，有兩種，那這兩種是不是應該區分出來？"],["連次長錦漳：我們這邊連結到的都是最後要拿到憑證的那一塊。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，後續再請你們提報告給我。","本席的時間不夠了，最後一件事情是關於砍樹種電的問題，再生能源發展條例第一條就寫得很清楚，為推廣再生能源利用，是要降低溫室氣體排放，改善環境品質，來增進所謂國家永續發展。但是我們看到實務上很多地方，包含最近新聞都有報導，不管是台糖還是各地方都在砍樹種電，砍樹之後蓋的綠電是光電板。我想問一下經濟部的立場，或是也問一下環境部的立場，砍完樹再去做光電，這件事情它屬於再生能源發展條例的獎勵或優惠措施嗎？它符合這個條件嗎？再生能源發展條例第一條開宗明義的定義就說我們是為了降低碳排，為了永續發展，結果你是把樹砍掉之後，然後再蓋光電板，這件事情跟再生能源發展條例第一條的意旨有沒有違背？"],["連次長錦漳：委員，這應該要有前提啦！因為有一些人工造林本身的樹木如果林相不好，其實本身的吸碳功能是不足的……"],["黃委員健豪：你們評估過本來的吸碳？"],["連次長錦漳：本來它就是農地，所以有平地造林，如果再做一些對生態環境保育比較好的充分規劃下，其實有一部分是可以拿來設置光電設施。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，你們要推，但你們還是應該把相關資訊提出來，針對林相及每一棵樹，到底原來的林地能夠吸收多少碳排、能夠減輕多少碳排的部分，跟處理光電板這兩者之間到底誰降的碳排比較多，是不是也請經濟部要提出報告給本席？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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多的是銀索稅的部分因為今年11、3年的我們的銀索稅跟1、2年的預算比是相當好是衰退的因為1、2年的出口不好所以盈利事業的獲利並不是很好"},{"start":561.519,"end":585.675,"text":"所以我們在113年在營所稅的部分交1、2年的預算數是減增的是減增的是負數的對我們來說我們希望這麼預估有兩個理由第一個你當然是根據你們的推估但是我不希望是因為新政府上任所以他沒有用沒有所謂的前瞻預算等特別預算然後在預算裡面用這樣的方式暴增來增加你們"},{"start":587.517,"end":596.365,"text":"本來想要做的事情可能更多了但是沒有辦法用特別預算然後匡列在公務預算裡面不是的我們在稅客收入的編列是我們是有專案小組在還有籌組那個專家學者一起來參加來討論按照各個稅務的特性來做籌編的"},{"start":603.191,"end":630.411,"text":"所以我想重點是希望今年的榮景可以持續的延續然後也可以達到我們稅出稅入平衡那最重要的是我們還是希望中央跟地方的財政要好好的溝通分配這個超增應該是全民共享而不是只有單單的中央政府經濟的成長是很重要的好那就麻煩超增的部分麻煩還是給我們今年的相關的數字好嗎"},{"start":630.811,"end":632.893,"text":"三、三、接著我們請武力華委員質詢那主席在這裡跟大家做一個報告中午我們不休息"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1106,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時37分）謝謝主席，我請央行總裁、金管會彭主委、還有證交所林董事長。"],["主席：好。請央行楊總裁、金管會彭主委，還有證交所林修銘董事長。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：三位好。我想今天主要針對川普重返白宮我們的財經部門到底準備好了沒？在10月份的時候，財委會針對亞洲資產管理中心的詢答時，我有提出3個要求，第一個要求是調整國人每年從國外匯回的金額上限500萬，央行很快幾天之內就回應本席，立刻把500萬調到1,000萬。第二個要求是是不是要跟進美國股市交割改採T+1？上次主委說要研究，研究完了沒？美國都回來了，你要不要告訴我一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可不可以請證交所答復？"],["黃委員珊珊：好，證交所。"],["林董事長修銘：報告委員，我們已經提了研究報告在一個月內，所以我們現在已經提上去期局了。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以這個比較先進的方法可能要儘快跟上國際的腳步。"],["林董事長修銘：有。"],["黃委員珊珊：第三個就是有關股市交易時間，目前還沒有回報。"],["林董事長修銘：報告委員，那時候也是一個月內要回報，我們有做調查，我們已經跟期局那邊……"],["黃委員珊珊：一樣，怎麼樣在新的世界發生變化之前，臺灣應該跟上國際的腳步，這個部分要請三位主管長官們趕快跟上這個部分。"],["林董事長修銘：是。好。"],["黃委員珊珊：很謝謝總裁的幫忙。時間暫停，董事長請回。","今天主要還是問到有關川普上任接下來的可能性，現在的問題是目前為止大家都在關心川普對臺灣的影響，重要的是他現在用了共和黨參議員Rubio出任美國國務卿，這位參議員在2022年曾經說過：中資銀行將來選擇使用中國或俄國的金融支付系統與俄銀交易，必須將其逐出美國的金融系統。這位強硬的、抗中的國務卿上任之後，總裁，有沒有可能讓各國去美元化的聯盟未來更加強大？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我覺得委員對於國際的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們現在看起來就是這位將來會加速。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這個就是因為南方金磚國家PLUS的幾個國家，他們要組成一個新的支付系統叫做BRICS Bridge……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我們的問題是將來去美元化跟用其他金融貨幣的對抗會更加劇，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，但是我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：我是擔心我們啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，因為他譬如說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們怎麼辦啦？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，到目前為止我總覺得我們臺灣不會受到影響。"],["黃委員珊珊：不會受到影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，不會受到影響。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，這是你們今年的出國報告，裡面說到面對多變的經濟金融情勢我們還是要小心或重思我們對於美元的依賴。當然我們是美元為主的國家，但是還是一樣不能夠把雞蛋都放在同一個籃子裡。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個部分也是我今天要問的，將來這些敵對的立場加劇，臺灣必須要在中間找到我們自己的位置。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員這個建議是很好，不過我想我們當然會密切的注意。"],["黃委員珊珊：我是滿擔心的，你自己的報告說IMF7月的報告指出，全球有上百個國家採取一種或多種形式的去美元化，我們如果一直在什麼位置，我們對自己還是要有備案。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁有把握吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：有、有、有。"],["黃委員珊珊：他們打來打去不會影響到我們？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個是你對臺灣人的承諾。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個是去美元化的部分。川普很可愛，他撂狠話說只要去美元化就要課百分之百的關稅。將來全世界的關稅壁壘顯然會更高，如果有這樣的狀況會不會影響到臺灣，包括將來我們在國際上也會受到相對的影響？我們不會受這個影響吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，不過他說要課這個大概也是一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：放話。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，是放話。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在還不知道，到時候才知道。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。","彭主委，對你來說，將來的關稅壁壘還有他們對於通膨的控制會不會讓一些熱錢不到臺灣來，影響到我們將來這些所謂股市交易或者是讓臺灣的經濟產生停滯？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想經濟上面不管是匯率或是通膨上面的這些變數也不是今天第一次這樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去已經有這樣，比如剛剛提到通膨前一陣子的狀況，又比如利息的上升，其實臺灣都已經經過了一次壓力測試，我想這部分我們大概都有一些想法、做法跟因應。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們的訴求就是財經部門要做好金融兵推。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是我們的日常。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是平常就要做好的事。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後一個問題，總裁，您是央行總裁，現在川普可能對美國的聯準會不太滿意，可能他們希望能夠行政部門來對聯準會下手，臺灣央行應該也是獨立單位，你覺得聯準會的紛擾會不會影響到臺灣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想應該是不會啦，美國……"],["黃委員珊珊：絕對不會、你很有把握？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，應該是說美國因為川普本身的一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為他可能覺得聯準會都不聽他的，利率都是聯準會在決定。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，但是基本上我總覺得，一直以來從前面到現在，美國聯準會的獨立性都非常強的，特別是鮑爾本身就是學法律的……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以他也不會理他？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以他……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以同樣的，央行在臺灣的立場也一樣，維持我們的獨立性、維持我們對於匯率跟相關臺灣經濟穩定的力量。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們中央銀行對於貨幣信用跟匯率的這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們希望不管未來的狀況怎麼樣，央行跟金管會都做好準備。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：從現在開始到他上任之後，他的關稅、他對於所謂供應鏈的重組，還有對於將來全球是不是會因為他的關稅提高而造成我們成本增加，甚至全球會有通膨，這個可能都必須要掌握在你手裡。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝總裁。接下來請財政部部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，部長，一樣，剛剛我們也聽到前面大家擔心的，中華民國中央政府的總預算，明年我們的預計歲入部分達到3.1兆，比113年增加了將近15%，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這個是整體歲入的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我比較好奇的是，你們到底基於什麼理由，認為我們的歲入可以暴增到這麼高？你的計算方式跟你們預估的來源是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有所謂的暴增，跟委員報告，這裡面我們的歲入會增加15%，裡面最主要是稅課收入成長19%，最主要是稅課收入。"],["黃委員珊珊：稅課收入今年超徵了。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們今年的實徵數大概……我們昨天已經提了，中央數大概會超過預算數的3000、全國數大概4000……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們以後都會在這個3.1兆之上嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個當然我們還是要看以後……"],["黃委員珊珊：看每年的狀況？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，看每年的情況，所以我們114年的稅課收入大概是編了2兆7,000億。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為您看這個表，這幾年其實是112年，110年其實經濟很好，110年的成長率有6.6%，112年能夠再好就是因為110年好，現在就是今年好像沒有預計的那麼好，但是你可以預計到高達15.7%，我們是覺得蠻勇敢的，你覺得做不做得到？"],["莊部長翠雲：裡面主要增加比較多的是營所稅部分，因為今年（113年）我們的營所稅跟112年的預算比是……"],["黃委員珊珊：相當好？"],["莊部長翠雲：不，是衰退的，因為112年的出口不好，盈利事業的獲利並不是很好，所以我們113年在營所稅部分較112年的預算數是減徵的、是負數，將近10%……"],["黃委員珊珊：對我們來說，我們希望這麼預估有兩個理由……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以明年就會是成長的。"],["黃委員珊珊：第一個你當然是根據你的推估，但是我不希望是因為新政府上任，沒有用所謂的前瞻預算等特別預算，然後在預算裡面用這樣的方式暴增來增加你們……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有、不是，我們的稅課收入……"],["黃委員珊珊：本來想要做的事情可能更多，但是沒有辦法用特別預算，然後匡列在公務預算裡面。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是的，我們在稅課收入的編列有專案小組，還有籌組專家學者一起來參加討論，按照各個稅目的特性來籌編。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我想重點是希望今年的榮景可以持續的延續，也可以達到我們歲出歲入平衡，最重要的是我們還是希望中央跟地方的財政要好好的溝通分配，這個超徵應該是全民共享，而不是只有單單的中央政府。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，經濟的成長是很重要的。謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，超徵的部分麻煩還是給我們今年的相關數字，好嗎？今年的執行的狀況。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們推估到年底可能會超過預算數的部分，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，那就麻煩部長提供。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝珊珊。","主席在這裡跟大家作一個報告：中午我們不休息，維持開會，12點開放在會場用餐，謝謝。","接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156921","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156921","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b8cbb5076912f47892a0d4a4306ab205f76f857e4235ff500a189f99eb07134245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:35:26 - 11:43:39","影片長度":"00:08:13","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T11:35:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T11:43:39+08:00","duration":493,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.970968750000001,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.66659375,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.476593750000003,"end":10.493468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.52221875,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.16346875,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.15909375,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.300968750000003,"end":27.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.77659375,"end":34.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.80096875,"end":71.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.95221875,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.66909375,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.96409375,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.03534375000001,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.81534375000001,"end":84.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.01346875,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.43534375,"end":85.53659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.67159375,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.60784375,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.00846875,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.45471875000001,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.31534375000001,"end":124.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.97346875000001,"end":140.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.13971875000001,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.00034375,"end":151.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.03409375,"end":142.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.54346875000002,"end":152.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.39534375000002,"end":154.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.95221875000001,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.02784375000002,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.80409375000002,"end":169.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.28284375,"end":172.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.26159375,"end":171.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.83096875,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.95721875,"end":178.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.33221875,"end":178.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.46721875,"end":180.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.00721875000002,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.67721875,"end":187.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.58846875,"end":186.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.48284375,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.90846875000003,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.18221875,"end":194.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.09721875000002,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.56971875000002,"end":202.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.76721875,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.95221875000001,"end":208.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.74471875,"end":213.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.41971875000002,"end":213.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.51659375000003,"end":217.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.06846875000002,"end":219.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.24971875000003,"end":222.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.33784375000002,"end":223.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.92846875,"end":226.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.72971875000002,"end":250.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.47221875000002,"end":227.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.3884687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68,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。 »: 是有的。現在衛福部的那個IDS的計畫其實連江、金門、澎湖有落實在執行嗎?專門醫生他們駐點然後輪值進去。這個部分我們希望我們這個身為這個國發會算是一個主管機關對於這個增加金門的這部分的成為國際醫療特區醫院這個部分"},{"start":171.252,"end":179.742,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、"},{"start":187.651,"end":216.957,"text":"我不是醫療的主管機關不過不是你是這個IDS的這個計畫你是屬於這個離島建設條例的主管機關嗎是他說國際醫院也是離島的建設計畫啊對因為離島條例裡面目的世界主管機關還是由各部會這邊他們在主責可是你是統籌的嘛統籌的所以你的支不支持有這麼困難回答嗎"},{"start":217.577,"end":220.901,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":227.209,"end":232.073,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":250.247,"end":253.251,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":265.285,"end":268.526,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":287.014,"end":289.597,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":305.413,"end":309.454,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":335.862,"end":351.634,"text":"主任,在去年的5月,為了民眾各自的安全、個人資料的保護法,我們就要設立我們的各支會。那這個各支會在去年的12月也在成立的籌備處。請問我們的表定時間在2025年的8月可以如期的來運轉嗎?"},{"start":357.759,"end":358.68,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":373.662,"end":378.305,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審"},{"start":392.373,"end":396.895,"text":"已經一年了,到明年的八月兩年的時間籌備會時間實在是很久了啦我們希望能夠如期來完成為什麼要這麼提呢?尤其是去年在我們立法院外面的時候有一些陳炕的事件發生不肖的人士就利用我們手機的基地台來進行數據的比對利用手機的基本資料進行行動的軌跡跟我們政治傾向來做一個調查"},{"start":421.847,"end":446.161,"text":"這方面外泄出去的所以我們想請教一下未來我們的各自法的修正是不是可以增加通信記錄不得收集、處理、利用可不可以?跟長的報告就是現在我們先把這個委員會先把它生出來當然各自法的主管機關是這個委員會現在法是這麼寫我們可以增加這個"},{"start":447.342,"end":467.514,"text":"對通訊資料不能蒐集利用處理。」 我覺得這部分就是要併進來讓整個委員會做一個全盤的修正。 那剛剛趙偉所講的這個內容的話我覺得到時候應該也是一個併入。 所以我們應該保護著民眾他的通訊資料不要被外洩然後被盜用啊是不是?"},{"start":467.514,"end":468.455,"text":"是。 現在很多你看到網路"},{"start":469.215,"end":472.877,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1064,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時35分）謝謝主席，請國發會的彭副主委。"],["主席：請彭副主委。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：副主委，大家都知道我們離島地區的醫療資源非常欠缺，尤其是他們有重大疾病的時候都要後送到臺灣本島來就醫，所以他們會產生很多像交通或者住宿的費用，這對民眾來講就是非常沉重的負擔，所以我們希望說能夠增加整個金門的醫療資源，可以讓他們不要有後送或者緊急情況發生遺憾的事情，所以我們政府特別對於離島跟山地地區有推動一個全民健康保險山地跟離島地區醫療給付效益提升的計畫，也就是IDS計畫，同時在2022年政府也擴編了衛福部在金門醫院人力的編制，現在是不是到達了82人？還是更高？還是有不足？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：委員要問的是多少……"],["呂委員玉玲：人員編制是多少？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：人員編制，這個是不是衛福部……"],["呂委員玉玲：那我告訴你好了，就是82個人。我們一般看到一位醫生照顧的病人有多少？金門的人口數是6萬到7萬人，所以他照顧、服務的民眾大概是800到900人，跟我們全臺灣各縣市的比例相較，大概是排倒數第三，它這麼缺乏人力跟醫療資源，我們真的是要做很大的一個調整，才能夠讓我們這個IDS計畫的效益有所提升，是不是？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在我們針對這個大醫院，是不是可以用IDS計畫協助派遣人力、專門的醫生到金門醫院來駐點？有沒有？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：現在衛福部的那個IDS的計畫，其實連江、金門、澎湖……"],["呂委員玉玲：有落實在執行嗎？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：都已經在執行。"],["呂委員玉玲：專門醫生進去輪值駐點？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：是，都已經有。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個部分，國發會算是一個主管機關，對於增加金門資源、成為國際醫療特區醫院這個部分，你支不支持？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：特區醫院？這個可能要請衛福部……"],["呂委員玉玲：國際醫療特區醫院，你是主管機關哦，我先問你支不支持？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：國際醫療機構，因為他要修法的這一條其實是有一點……"],["呂委員玉玲：我請問，你是主管機關，你支持嗎？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：我不是醫療的主管機關，不過……"],["呂委員玉玲：這個IDS計畫，而你是這個離島建設條例的主管機關，國際醫院也是離島的建設計畫啊！"],["彭副主任委員立沛：離島條例裡面，目的事業主管機關還是由各部會這邊在主責。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是你是統籌的嘛！"],["彭副主任委員立沛：對，我們是負責統籌，沒錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你支不支持？有這麼困難回答嗎？還是有什麼問題？你直接說好了。那請衛福部的專門委員。"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，其實像剛剛委員所關切的離島醫療資源部分，我們已經有在推動醫學中心的支援計畫，就是依他們輪派醫生在那邊……"],["呂委員玉玲：請大聲一點。"],["郭專門委員威中：另外一個部分，我們也希望說在地化的醫療人員，就是說辦理原住民族及離島地區醫事人員的養成計畫，希望培養在地的醫事人員能夠就近服務當地的……"],["呂委員玉玲：當然我們培養在地人才，能夠在地就醫才是我們的目標嘛，但是你沒有在地的人員時，就必須要有專門的醫生去那邊輪流駐點，那這個部分你們有沒有做到？"],["郭專門委員威中：有，目前都是已經……"],["呂委員玉玲：派遣多少？"],["郭專門委員威中：詳細數字我可能再回去……"],["呂委員玉玲：國發會是統籌這個離島條例的主管機關，所以在這個IDS計畫裡，你就必須橫向的做統整規劃，讓我們金門可以設置國際醫療特區的這個構想，我們希望國發會是支持、幫忙的一個態度，好不好？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：好，我們會跟衛福部這邊來商討，不過國際醫療按照這個法令新訂的這個條文內容裡面，確實有一些跟我們現在的醫療法……"],["呂委員玉玲：有什麼困難？有什麼問題？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：有一些跟醫療法上面……"],["呂委員玉玲：你說有什麼問題呢？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：有一些扞格的問題，所以還沒有辦法，因為我覺得……"],["呂委員玉玲：還是說由衛福部來提？衛福部有困難嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，其實我們在110年修醫療機構設置擴充許可辦法以後，已經有把那個國際醫療病床融入在裡面了，所以說……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們希望你們積極來重視金門離島所有民眾的健康，好不好？好，謝謝。","我接下來要請教的是個資會的李主任。"],["主席：請個資會李主任。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝，其他的人就請回。","主任，在去年的5月，為了民眾個資的安全，個人資料的保護法修法，我們就要設立個資會，這個個資會在去年的12月成立籌備處，請問我們的表定時間在2025年的8月可以如期的來運轉嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟召委報告，我們往這個時間前進，因為這是大法官講的時間，我們要在這個時間讓它能夠……"],["呂委員玉玲：那你們呢？你們目前的進度呢？"],["李主任世德：跟召委報告，目前進度是希望有關於它的子法跟配套修正個資法的這些權限規定能夠在下個會期就送到大院來。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為現在不管是企業或者公家機關，這個個資外洩情況層出不窮，所以我們才希望說來成這個個資會，如果要成立了，從去年的5月到今年已經一年了，到明年的8月就兩年了，籌備的時間實在是很久了，我們希望能夠如期來完成，為什麼要這麼提呢？尤其是去年我們立法院外面有一些陳抗的事件在進行時，不肖的人士就利用我們手機基地台來進行數據的比對，利用手機的基本資料對行動的軌跡跟我們政治傾向來做調查，透過這方面外洩出去的。所以我們想請教一下，未來我們個資法的修正是不是可以增加通訊紀錄不得蒐集處理利用，可不可以？"],["李主任世德：跟召委報告，現在我們先把這個委員會生出來，當然個資法的主管機關是這個委員會，現在法是這麼寫。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們可以增加對通訊資料不能蒐集利用處理的規定？"],["李主任世德：我覺得這部分就是要併進來，讓整個委員會做一個全盤的修正。剛剛召委所講的這個內容的話，我覺得到時候應該也是一個併入……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們應該保護民眾，讓他的通訊資料不要被外洩、被盜用，是不是？現在在網路上發生很多盜用人家的帳號後再留言、然後攻擊、然後利用他的帳號去跟人家借錢、販賣等等的事情，非常非常的多，我們要防範未然，個資會成立之後的話，一定要做到保護所有民眾，不管是企業或者公家機關等等，不讓這些個資外洩，你要負起這個責任，好不好？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","黃健豪","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","蔡易餘","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文\n修正草案」案、(二)本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(三)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)本\n院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)\n本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；二、審查：\n(一)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員賴士葆\n等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員邱志偉等 22 人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156920","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b38db03ba9730a5f52a0d4a4306ab205f76f857e4235ff50034c366ed1daa38bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"11:24:43 - 11:35:15","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T11:24:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T11:35:15+08:00","duration":632,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.599093750000002,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.058468750000003,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.25659375,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.74096875,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.984718750000003,"end":26.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.13221875,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.62909375,"end":35.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.26159375,"end":41.290343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.56034375,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.69909375,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.16284375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.242843750000006,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.407218750000006,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.47471875,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.80784375,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.705968750000004,"end":55.313468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.14034375000001,"end":56.680343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.157218750000006,"end":56.697218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.697218750000005,"end":81.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.48221875,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.81534375000001,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.92471875000001,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.01721875000001,"end":90.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.81846875000001,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.28659375000001,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.96784375,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.39159375000001,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.51784375000001,"end":125.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.49659375,"end":128.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.14159375,"end":135.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.36409375,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.03034375000001,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.77284375000002,"end":149.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.80534375000002,"end":153.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.71159375000002,"end":164.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.01784375,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.02846875,"end":178.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.55159375000002,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.56846875000002,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.33596875,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.22096875000003,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.66659375,"end":205.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.95659375000002,"end":206.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.69909375,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.16721875000002,"end":223.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.22784375,"end":226.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.84784375,"end":240.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.95534375000003,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.41096875000002,"end":249.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.42784375000002,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.62909375,"end":250.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.67534375000002,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.24034375000002,"end":254.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.36659375000002,"end":257.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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對不對那我在想說這個情況我就覺得很混亂就是現在立法委員他要提這個案子可是你們這邊也希望說能夠等到整個明年8月1號之後"},{"start":136.428,"end":163.701,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。 是這樣的一個情況嗎?跟委員報告目前現在我們的任務籌備處的任務當然是要讓這一個個資法的主管機關個人資料綁匯生出來。理解那我這邊要特別提到一個點因為目前針對一般的民間的人士如果洩漏個資很容易就會被處罰可是政府部門洩漏個資好像只要否認就沒有事你有沒有發現?"},{"start":165.143,"end":169.165,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":188.237,"end":190.879,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":205.964,"end":211.249,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":225.27,"end":232.975,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":249.665,"end":277.406,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。他就覺得為什麼他們這麼小然後他們的個資一樣洩漏?主任你有沒有知道這件事情?新聞的報導有之前有聽到你有注意到這個事情對不對?那你覺得這些小朋友的個資他們是從哪裡洩漏出去的?當然有可能是在學校端就有把這個資訊出去做學校端就洩漏出去了嗎?有沒有輪負責任?"},{"start":279.485,"end":296.394,"text":"對目前假如說以當然現在還是分管會由教育部這邊會來做中央目的事業組員來做查賬OK那這個部分我要特別講一下因為現在連小朋友都有個資的意識他們覺得他們可能從小一入學的時候資料系就被賣出去了"},{"start":297.254,"end":303.876,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":324.394,"end":331.276,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":353.643,"end":359.167,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":384.844,"end":398.3,"text":"這我要確認因為我們有推估齁我們在能源署有推估針對整個用電需求量如果把AI或半導體這相關的投資進來會成長多少我們那時候是有成長差不多這2.5到2.8左右OK"},{"start":400.623,"end":426.602,"text":"那麼台電這邊說法的時候我就說因為就是因為半導體跟AI需要的一個部分所以在未來十年大概需要增加這麼多的一個用電跟你講的數字是符合的那麼在1151萬千瓦這個部分的時候我們回推現在大家因為他說這個部分大概會增加20%到30%那我就回推的部分就現在的我們的一個"},{"start":428.184,"end":448.798,"text":"負債量大概在5,755萬千瓦到3,836萬千瓦之間那我查了昨天的一個數字確實也差不多在3,000多萬千瓦確實是符合這個狀態那我這邊我就再回去看了一下這台電發言人這邊講出來的情況他說我們今年再生能源的比例會佔到12.1%是這樣子的一個數字嗎"},{"start":450.879,"end":454.161,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":477.595,"end":483.965,"text":"未來十年應該再生能源我們現在再推估的話太陽光電應該如果從現在到2033的話應該會增加到4GW然後那個離岸風電應該會整體齁"},{"start":492.577,"end":510.753,"text":"因為台電這邊給的是一個整體的數字我只是看到這數字裡頭我其實一直在玩文字遊戲為什麼?因為他直接表示說我們大型機組未來十年要增加的量是1786萬千瓦然後我們再生能源這邊的時候就可以產生每年多200萬到300萬千瓦"},{"start":512.995,"end":528.4,"text":"那如果這樣算起來的時候我們光是再生能源的部分就可以cover掉我們未來十年要增加的1151萬千瓦你知道嗎?就是我們大型機具夠我們再生能源就可以遠遠的cover掉我們未來十年要增加的部分"},{"start":531.043,"end":550.791,"text":"這個數字這個是裝置容量不是不是他講的是負載量這個是裝置容量所以我就覺得台電跟經濟部這邊一直在玩一個文字遊戲因為裝置容量這邊會有一個容量因素的部分那這個部分到底要出來多少所以你說這個1151萬千瓦是裝置容量嗎"},{"start":554.612,"end":556.493,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":577.498,"end":580.06,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":597.742,"end":599.943,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":614.327,"end":616.069,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1004,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（11時24分）主席好，我想請經濟部的連次長、國發會彭副主委，還有個資保護委員會籌備處的李主任。"],["主席：連次長、彭副主委、李主任。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長好。我首先問一下李主任好了，次長的部分，我最後再來請教。","有關2022年底發生2,300萬筆國人戶政資料外洩案，請問你有沒有掌握這件事情？"],["李主任世德：在之前的……應該說……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你要推給國發會嗎？"],["李主任世德：不是，就是之前的一些資訊我們有……當然現在還是有去掌握。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你有掌握嘛！"],["李主任世德：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那我想問一下，在這個案子當中涉及資料外洩事件的其實是內政部，卻一再對外否認有相關的事情，但是內政部這個說法其實已經被調查局資安站這邊直接打臉，調查局資安站在這邊的時候直接表示臺灣這位鄭姓工程師花了15萬元去買的那2,300萬筆的資料確實是臺灣的戶政資料，你知道這個事情嗎？"],["李主任世德：是，那個部分的話，媒體也有報導。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。那我想請問一下，針對這一個部分，在洩漏個資的嫌疑人方面，坦白說，在民間只要有洩漏個資的時候，一般就會被處罰，對不對？在這一次有很多委員提案，可是我看到我們籌備處這邊的回應基本上都是希望等到我們主管機關明年成立之後再來做進一步的研議，對不對？"],["李主任世德：明年8月11日以前……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，這個情況我就覺得很混亂，現在立法委員要提這個案子，可是你們這邊也希望說能夠等到明年8月1號之後再來大幅的調整，是這樣的一個情況嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，現在我們籌備處的任務是要讓這一個個資法的主管機關──個人資料保護委員會生出來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，那我這邊要特別提到一個點，因為目前針對一般的民間人士如果洩漏個資，很容易就會被處罰，可是政府部門洩漏個資好像只要否認就沒事，你有沒有發現？所以說在明年8月1號之後，你要大幅地來研議、修這個部分的時候，公部門如果洩漏個資的部分，你們會不會把處罰也放進去？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，未來的監管的話，就是公務機關跟非公務機關的統籌性監管的會朝這個方向，這部分我們會來列入修法的研議。"],["鄭委員正鈐：都必須要把它列入嘛，對不對？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想這個部分其實很重要，比方說，這個2,300萬筆的個資洩漏出去之後，感覺政府部門只要一直否認，好像就沒有人被懲處，至少我目前看起來是沒有人被懲處，對不對？我們希望之後如果公部門洩漏個資的時候必須要有人被懲處，我覺得這很重要，否則大家都不用負責任。而洩漏個資很大一部分可能都是從公部門出去的，2,300萬筆個資出去的時候，後續會怎麼用，我們都不知道，然後你如果說要等到受損害的時候才去主張、提起損害賠償之訴，那都遙遙無期了。所以我們希望洩漏個資這件事情在公部門當中就需要被處罰，好不好？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外有個部分，因為現在有很多同學，他們其實在PTT上面就直接把它給公布出來，他就覺得為什麼他們年紀這麼小，然後他們的個資一樣被洩漏？主任知不知道這件事情？"],["李主任世德：新聞之前有報導。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你有注意到這個事情，對不對？那你覺得這些小朋友的個資是從哪裡洩漏出去的？"],["李主任世德：當然有可能是在學校端就有把這個資訊……"],["鄭委員正鈐：學校端就洩漏出去了嘛！有沒有人負責任？"],["李主任世德：目前假如說以……當然現在還是分管，會由教育部這個中央目的事業主管來查察。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分我要特別講一下，因為現在連小朋友都有個資的意識，他們覺得自己可能從小一入學的時候，資料其實就被賣出去了，被賣出去之後，第二年到小二，六年之後到國中一年級，就是一路被賣、一路被賣、一路被賣，所以臺灣的小朋友都認為他們的個資在小一入學的時候就被賣掉了，這件事情非常的嚴重，我們請主任這邊一定要很認真的去看待這個事情，然後不要讓這樣的事情變成臺灣個資的一個很大的破口跟傷害，可不可以？"],["李主任世德：是，可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝，OK。","我接下來想請問一下連次長，因為我看到台電這邊不斷在講電是夠的，經濟部也不斷在講電是夠的，可是我發現經濟部長之前講說電是夠的、而且保證2030年之前電都會夠時，他有一個前提是說目前所有的計畫都會按照計畫在進行，是這樣的一個情況嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是這樣嗎？所以所謂的不缺電是有很大的一個但書，可是這個但書能不能達到，我其實是有一些疑慮的。我這邊直接講一個狀態，台電的副總前幾天針對特定媒體受訪的時候表示說，未來十年內，他講到2033年，未來十年內臺灣大概要增加1,151萬千瓦的電，這個數字有沒有錯？"],["連次長錦漳：這我要確認，因為我們能源署有推估，針對整個用電需求量，如果把AI或半導體相關的投資進來會成長多少，那時候是有成長差不多2.5到2.8左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那麼台電這邊提出此說法的時候，就說是因為半導體跟AI需要，所以在未來十年大概需要增加這麼多的用電，跟你講的數字是符合的。那麼在1,151萬千瓦這個部分，我們回推，因為他說這個部分大概會增加20%到30%，那我就回推，現在我們的負載量大概在5,755萬千瓦到3,836萬千瓦之間，我查了昨天的一個數字，確實也差不多在三千多萬千瓦，確實是符合這個狀態。我這邊就再回去看了一下台電發言人這邊講出來的情況，他說我們今年再生能源的比例會占到12.1%，是這樣子的數字嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我再往回推的時候就發現，我們現在再生能源的發電量大概落在690萬到460萬千瓦之間，這數字都對嗎？我是按照你們給的數字去往回推的，然後我覺得台電這邊又講說未來十年我們每一年至少會產生200萬千瓦到300萬千瓦的再生能源，這個數字也是你們的數字嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：未來十年再生能源的部分，我們現在推估，太陽光電如果從現在到2033年的話應該會增加到4GW，然後離岸風電應該會……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為台電這邊給的是一個整體的數字，我看到的這個數字裡頭其實一直在玩文字遊戲，為什麼？因為它直接表示說我們大型機組未來十年要增加的量是1,786萬千瓦，然後我們再生能源這邊就可以每年多產生200萬到300萬千瓦，如果這樣算起來，我們光是再生能源的部分就可以cover掉我們未來十年要增加的1,151萬千瓦，你知道嗎？不只我們大型機組夠，我們再生能源就可以遠遠的cover掉我們未來十年要增加的部分。"],["連次長錦漳：這個是裝置容量……"],["鄭委員正鈐：不是、不是，它講的是負載量。"],["連次長錦漳：這個是裝置容量，還要再打折。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，如果是裝置容量，我就覺得台電跟經濟部一直在玩一個文字遊戲，因為裝置容量這邊會有一個容量因素的部分。"],["連次長錦漳：對、對、對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分到底出來的是多少？所以你說這個1,151萬千瓦是裝置容量嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：這個應該是需求量。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是需求量嘛！"],["連次長錦漳：底下這兩個是裝置量……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你說200萬、300萬千瓦都是裝置容量？"],["連次長錦漳：底下這兩個應該是裝置容量，委員，我們把這個詳細數字，目前2025到2030、2030到2040年這些相關的，我們有一個完整的規劃，再把它送到委員辦公室。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長，你給我一個很完整狀態的資料，包括接下來這十年我們電力有哪些、怎麼樣增加、然後減少哪些部分，因為如果按照台電的說法，經濟部長也說我們電力這麼充沛的時候，就不會跟我們講說新竹以北所有的算力中心都不予通過，你知道嗎？所以這個部分我覺得它是有很大的一個衝突。次長，你給我一個很完整的資料，我們對於電的部分其實是非常非常擔憂的。"],["連次長錦漳：我們把我們的需求量、我們的設置到時候會產生多少、然後減去多少、會新增了多少……"],["鄭委員正鈐：然後你給我一個實際發電量，因為我覺得台電現在每次都用裝置容量來忽悠大家。"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們給委員的是實際的發電量，然後我們把它送給委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：多久給本辦公室？"],["連次長錦漳：我們一個禮拜內。"],["鄭委員正鈐：一個禮拜內？好。謝謝。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：我們接下來請呂玉玲委員質詢。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156919","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bbfa0650ceaeebc3cfd7b6b5cb373b4dd76f857e4235ff500896b02f461641f995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:11:20 - 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對不對我們沒有我們完全是嚴格審查我們嚴格監督他的這個使用美的這個量那為什麼2031年告訴我們的是1260那換句話說從現在開始到2031年7年你的"},{"start":264.043,"end":266.283,"text":"檢煤怎麼檢?怎麼檢?當然現在我再一次告訴你現在的量是1100至1200公噸對不對你怎麼可以你到2031年是1260萬公噸部長就這個議題"},{"start":290.373,"end":314.754,"text":"你一時間答不出來我願意給你時間你去把我理清楚我要求的沒關係我要求的是說環評通過了我們中部人很無奈可是我們還是要捍衛我們的健康你們的減煤你從現在開始到2031年你的減煤你的量數要怎麼樣去探題你請書面資料給本席好不好多久時間給我"},{"start":317.618,"end":320.266,"text":"這個減煤的量是要台電他們提供的。多久時間給我沒關係你告訴我。"},{"start":323.3,"end":349.779,"text":"兩週內告訴我以人民的健康為基準以減煤的量數為基準好不好沒關係你提供給本席接下來本席要告訴你肺癌已經是國人十大癌症的始因第一名這已經很多年對不對我們中部地區更可憐更可憐沒有人就成不了國家了啦所以我要拜託部長我們看到WHO已經將PM2.5的平均濃度標準下修"},{"start":351.46,"end":363.59,"text":"對,沒錯。他從15下修加研到12維克每立方米,對不對?他最終目標,最終最終,不是現在的。沒有不是最終目標,而且離WHO的5維克"},{"start":366.753,"end":381.085,"text":"它最終目標是五維克對不對最終目標是五維克你你是專家你講清楚最終目標是五維克它現在要修它是修到從加嚴到12所以可以顯示這個議題的嚴重性"},{"start":384.528,"end":385.129,"text":"但是我們中華還是最大宗。"},{"start":412.47,"end":431.923,"text":"沒有,其實中華在過去這幾年我們有監督它的用煤量顯著的減少,總污染量也顯著的減少,但是其實台中有很多的...部長你有一個觀念本席要告訴你,我以台中人的身份告訴你。中華減煤是應當的,空污要改善也是應當的,因為我們已經付出了那麼多。"},{"start":433.257,"end":434.898,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算"},{"start":451.132,"end":476.142,"text":"你是不是要無斷的給我增加?所以我願意跟你理性討論,你告訴我,你的書面資料給我,怎麼樣去防範這些空污,你怎麼樣滾動去討論這些的措施。所以,碳費的問題,上一次本席跟你討論過了。專款專用在碳的這個制度改善,這個大家有共識。給地方,那麼大家也有共識。"},{"start":477.483,"end":494.976,"text":"那所以在這樣的情況之下我也謝謝你上次你也認同我說中華是很嚴重的很嚴肅的一個議題那所以我們應當分配的時候應該要加成的分配這個你也說你同意納入考量嗎"},{"start":495.937,"end":519.588,"text":"所以我請教部長也就是我們在討論碳費用途的這個屋管基金會的委員將地方政府來納入聽到真正人民的聲音是否成案會不會將地方政府來納入讓他們成為委員來共同討論目前這個法這個我們因為屋管基金的執法現在正在送行政院的審查我們也預公告這個是時機啊"},{"start":521.309,"end":542.112,"text":"對,那這個未來我們真的會列入考慮。會列入喔?對,會列入考慮。不是考慮啊,你要去達證成功啊。但是也報告委員吼,因為我舉例啦。你的立場是贊成是不是?其實我們環境部有一半的預算都是給地方在做使用的。那其實我請問,將地方政府納入成為委員,你的立場是贊成的嗎?所以你才會送嗎?"},{"start":543.093,"end":560.889,"text":"其實這個目前我們未來就是看這個法案的修正的狀況但是這個原則性我們因為環境部包含的委員也是來自於地方所以其實我們跟地方的合作是非常密切的所以會納入嗎可以納入來考慮那什麼時候你們會開會你們KPI大概都多久"},{"start":561.389,"end":580.016,"text":"目前預計是明年年初啦,因為這個法案還在審查,因為還要委員的聆聘等等。 對對對對,所以明年年初開會,我也希望你的提供將地方政府納為委員,實際上聽到民眾的聲音,居城的聲音,你平平點頭。接下來我最後一個議題也就是我們"},{"start":580.976,"end":605.964,"text":"中華的碳排如此那所以我說的我們盧市長說八成分給地方你還有兩成還是可以去分配啊這個是全國一致性那不管分配多少我還是要拜託中華的地區你應該要有加成的比例分配因為我們付出最多我們必須要減的要蓋的也是最多同意嗎"},{"start":606.755,"end":630.662,"text":"而包圍二氧化碳跟空污污染物是不一樣的東西二氧化碳例如說我現在講話也排除二氧化碳你會受到我的影響健康傷害嗎不會所以碳排跟空污這兩件事情是可以不一樣的來看待的啦那委員的建議我們會納入考慮是不一樣的看待當然但是還是回歸本席的議題所以我具體建議付出那麼多的人"},{"start":631.522,"end":634.723,"text":"除了要怎麼跟世界接軌之外必須先決條件要讓地方可以一起來參與實際上的去改善嘛"},{"start":651.67,"end":654.912,"text":"對,我要謝謝你具體建議我們中國的地區我們台中在分配的時候必須要加成加重比例分配給我們去改善我認為這個是對全國絕對有幫助的"},{"start":668.522,"end":693.559,"text":"報告委員地方環保局還有更多可以改善空污的空間我們也希望台中市更努力啦我們非常的努力但是我們的污染源這麼多但是還有很多縣市更努力希望台中很努力我們非常努力你不用跟我辯因為跟我辯沒有用跟我辯是沒有用的你懂意思嗎因為人民的健康只有一個所以希望你能夠納入好嗎好謝謝委員指教謝謝"},{"start":695.746,"end":696.567,"text":"謝謝楊卿英委員的發言。謝謝部長。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1484,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時11分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，我們繼續來討論中火的議題，我們知道目前為止，政府跟我們地方的民眾，跟我們臺中市議會、臺中市政府的意見還是有一些分歧，當然我們必須以民眾的健康為基準，尤其站在你環境部維護環境的立場，我想這一點你可以認同吧？"],["彭部長啓明：認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，所以我們繼續討論，因為在環評會當中並沒有說明整個減煤的量數要怎麼去減，當然二期的部分4部天然氣機組環評已經通過，但是我們回想，來回看，為什麼在環評會裡頭沒有去說明減煤的量數？如果站在你是環境部的立場，尤其在8日的時候，卓院長也親自到中火去會勘，他特別提出，在2031年之後可以去檢討另外6部燃煤機組要怎麼樣去處理，這是第一個。尤其曾董事長在現場也說了，1,260萬公噸的燃煤量可以由2031年之後去遞減，也就是減煤多少？300萬公噸，換句話說，到2031年之後有可能達到900萬噸，但是當我們地方聽到這個訊息很緊張，很緊張的意思是什麼？現在我們每一年大概是1,100萬公噸，為什麼在2031年竟然說的是1,260萬公噸？這個是公開的訊息，所以本席要在這邊請教，在整個環評沒有說明煤量要怎麼做的情況之下，增氣我們支持，但是增氣的必要條件是要減煤，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認同這個方向吧？"],["彭部長啓明：認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣子才能夠達到你環境部的立場嘛！所以在這樣的情況之下，我們看到中火已經是全國最大的火力發電廠，如果以卓揆跟曾董事長所說，我們未來有可能會成為全世界最大的火力發電廠，這個會嚴重地影響到整個臺中人，所以本席要請教，您身為部長，你要怎麼樣把關？你要怎麼樣把關？我們臺中人不能擁有低污染嗎？我們不能擁有低污染低排碳的環境嗎？我們已經付出了那麼那麼的多，請教部長，要怎麼應對？"],["彭部長啓明：因為那天環評的結論，包含了減煤量都有把它提供出來，跟卓院長及曾董事長到臺中所說的，其實我們有對照，都是一樣的數據。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一樣的數據就更恐怖了，我現在只有1,100到1,200萬公噸，你明明白白赤裸裸地告訴我，2031年是1,260萬公噸，我們中部人怎麼辦？怎麼可以如此？你環評通過了，你就赤裸裸告訴我煤炭的量，我們中部人怎麼辦？部長，我幾乎要用懇求……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，報告委員，您……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你是部長欸！你是環境部的部長，你不能當經濟部底下的環境司欸！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有哦！我們沒有，我們完全是嚴格審查，我們也會嚴格監督它使用煤的量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那為什麼告訴我們2031年是1,260萬公噸？換句話說，從現在開始到2031年，7年，你的減煤怎麼減？怎麼減？"],["彭部長啓明：因為它從煤改成氣的過程中，氣要蓋好，煤才能夠減下來變成備用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然！我再一次告訴你，現在的量是1,100至1,200萬公噸，對不對？你怎麼可以到2031年是1,260萬公噸？部長，就這個議題你一時間答不出來，我願意給你時間，你去幫我釐清楚，我要求的……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，我要求的是說，環評通過了，我們中部人很無奈，可是我們還是要捍衛我們的健康，你們的減煤，你從現在開始到2031年，減煤的量數要怎麼樣去攤提，請你書面資料給本席，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，謝謝委員的指教。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間給我？"],["彭部長啓明：減煤的量要台電他們提供，我們是監督他們。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多久時間給我？沒關係，你告訴我。"],["彭部長啓明：2週內。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2週內告訴我。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以人民的健康為基準。"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，不過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以減煤的量數為基準，好不好？沒關係，你提供給本席。","接下來本席要告訴你，肺癌已經是國人10大癌症死因第1名，這已經很多年，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們中部地區更可憐，沒有人就成不了國家了啦！所以我要拜託部長，我們看到WHO已經將PM2.5的平均濃度標準下修，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從15微克下修，加嚴到12微克每立方米，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：它最終目標，最終最終，不是現在的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有，不是最終目標，而且離WHO的5微克，它最終目標是5微克，對不對？最終目標是5微克哦！您是專家，你講清楚，最終目標是5微克，它現在是加嚴修到12微克，顯示出這一個議題的嚴重性，危害到人民的健康，所以部長，本席要要求，我們怎麼樣去管制這個措施的成效？你要怎麼樣滾動性地去檢討空污的防制方案？請你告訴我。"],["彭部長啓明：其實空污的來源除了點源，像中火；也有線源，交通；也有面源，整個範圍。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，本席瞭解。"],["彭部長啓明：其實中部的汽機車還是在增加的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對對對，本席瞭解。"],["彭部長啓明：還要各方面多方的管制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我們的中火還是最大宗，還是最大宗。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實中火在過去這幾年我們有監督它，它的用煤量顯著地減少，總污染量也顯著地減少，但是臺中有很多的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，有一個觀念本席要告訴你，我以臺中人的身分告訴你，中火減煤是應當的，空污要改善也是應當的，因為我們已經付出了那麼多，這是應當的。不要再告訴我以前我們有減多少煤，院長已經告訴我們了，2031年1,260萬公噸，讓我嚇一跳，現在才1,100到1,200萬公噸，他告訴我的是如此，這7年我們怎麼過？你是不是要不斷地給我增加？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我願意跟你理性討論，你告訴我，你的書面資料給我，怎麼樣去防範這些空污，你怎麼樣滾動式去討論這些措施。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：碳費的問題，上一次本席跟你討論過了，專款專用在碳的制度改善，這個大家有共識，碳費給地方大家也有共識，所以在這樣情況之下，我也謝謝你，上次你也認同我說中火是很嚴重、很嚴肅的一個議題，所以分配的時候應該要加成的分配，這個你也說你同意納入考量嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是，沒問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我請教部長，討論碳費用途的溫管基金會的委員，將地方政府納入，聽到人民真正的聲音，是否成案？會不會將地方政府納入，讓他們成為委員來共同討論？"],["彭部長啓明：目前這個法，因為溫管基金的子法現在正在送行政院審查，我們也預公告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以這個是時機啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個未來我們真的會列入考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會列入？"],["彭部長啓明：對，會列入考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是考慮啦！你要去達陣成功，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：但是也報告委員，因為我舉例啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個是方向嘛！你的立場是贊成，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們環境部有一半的預算都是給地方在做使用的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，我請問，將地方政府納入成為委員，你的立場是贊成的，所以你才會送嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：其實我們未來就是看法案修正的狀況，但是這個原則性，包含委員也是來自於地方，所以我們與地方的合作是非常密切的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以會納入嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：可以納入來考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以納入？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你們什麼時候會開會？你們KPI大概多久達成？"],["彭部長啓明：目前預計是明年年初，因為這個法案還在審查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年年初開會嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：因為還要委員的遴聘等等。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對對對，所以明年年初開會，我也希望你的提供，將地方政府納為委員，實際上聽到民眾的聲音、基層的聲音，你頻頻點頭。","接下來我最後一個議題，中火的碳排如此，所以我們盧市長說八成碳費分給地方，你還有二成可以去分配啊！這個是全國一致性，但不管分配多少，我還是要拜託，中火的地區你應該要有加成的比例分配，因為我們付出最多，我們必須要減的、要改的也是最多，同意嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：二氧化碳跟空污污染物是不一樣的東西，例如說我現在在講話也排出二氧化碳，你會受到我的影響，有健康傷害嗎？不會！所以碳排跟空污這是兩件事情，是不一樣的來看待啦！委員的建議我們會納入考慮，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不一樣的看待，當然，但是還是回歸本席的議題，所以我具體建議，付出那麼多的人，尤其我們看到PM2.5，世界WHO已經加嚴，那麼未來的方向是更嚴的情況之下，我們除了要怎麼與世界接軌之外，先決條件必須要讓地方可以一起來參與，實際上去改善嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我還是具體建議，這一個「對」我要謝謝你，具體建議我們中火的地區，我們臺中在分配的時候必須要加成，加重比例分配給我們去改善，我認為這個對全國絕對是有幫助的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，地方環保局還有更多可以改善空污的空間，我們也希望臺中市更努力啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們非常地努力，但是我們的污染源這麼多。"],["彭部長啓明：但是還有很多縣市更努力，希望臺中很努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我們非常努力，你不用跟我辯，因為跟我辯沒有用！跟我辯是沒有用的，你懂意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為人民的健康只有一個，所以希望你能夠納入，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的發言，謝謝部長。","下一位請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}},{"id":"156918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b455b34dc4e826505fd7b6b5cb373b4dd76f857e4235ff500e3ae72de851352f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:00:30 - 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bicycloprojects"},{"start":61.819,"end":79.011,"text":"不過也因為他影響層面很大所以就利用這個機會來跟部長做一些討論那其實今年的9月26號環境部做一個預告的修正針對這個管理辦法尤其是關於這個廢棄藥物跟一些全國"},{"start":80.653,"end":109.091,"text":"化學藥物對於環境的影響因為我們知道如果使用抗生素不當管理的話其實對於抗生素的抗藥性造成的影響是非常的大那如果是像全服化學藥物這一類的話對環境的影響如果對於環境造成污染或者是有過量的話它對於癌症的這個產生也有蠻大的疑慮所以對民眾的影響其實都是蠻大的那針對這一部分特別規定"},{"start":109.531,"end":112.392,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案二、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":131.301,"end":133.103,"text":"應該是王市長主持的嗎?"},{"start":133.103,"end":156.423,"text":"是那這個座談會裡面其實就衛福部也有派了官員去參加這個相關的座談會那當場衛福部其實是有提供一些意見來做參考包括說環境部進行更多這個醫院放流水的調查要有一個比較明確的這個施行日期的一個統一的部分那因為"},{"start":157.984,"end":177.214,"text":"希望在110年以後能夠來做相關的施行因為我們知道其實相關尤其是公立醫院如果他們要做這些改善的話他們必須要依照這個預算編列的程序在施程上可能有時候也需要確定的掌握他們這個程序的部分"},{"start":177.654,"end":178.134,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":178.134,"end":196.766,"text":"第二點就是關於如果院內要進行加濾消毒作業等等的話也希望能夠針對於大型的醫院或醫學中心能夠辦理教育訓練跟輔導來提升藥品削減成效才能夠達到比較好的一些措施的管控結果另外有關於"},{"start":198.767,"end":220.675,"text":"就是環境部要規劃相關的環境費用等的時候其實醫療成本也會相對是提升的尤其如果說要針對這些內容要做適當申報監控的話這個對於整體醫療的成本其實是會上升的所以希望能夠考量在這個對於提升以後"},{"start":222.355,"end":251.023,"text":"醫療成本的增加對整個社會的衝擊第四點就是他也希望能夠環境部在針對所謂會影響到醫院跟醫療機構的部分包括長照機構跟照護中心都有一個比較聚焦型的會議來做進行相關的處理那不知道到目前為止就是針對這些意見部長或者是市長有沒有其他需要再說明的這個進度的部分"},{"start":251.711,"end":277.917,"text":"對,好謝謝委員的這個建議其實目前就是照委員的這個建議正在進行當中那例如說包含116年開始實施那我們也就照這樣方式進行那其實不管環境部也跟衛福部也都有對醫療院所的廢水處理有進行教育訓練那另外一個呢是社會的衝擊我們也知道因為驗一次其實也要花個9到10萬所以的確會造成這個醫院的一個成本"},{"start":278.097,"end":291.511,"text":"但是其實也有一些醫生認為那個就是醫院本來要做的所以這個有些正反的一個意見那另外一個的是目前其實我們到9月跟10月都包含了11月都會有一些延伸的法案這個細節的部分是不是請我們市長簡單的回應"},{"start":294.474,"end":313.167,"text":"謝謝委員關心跟指教那這個部分我們包括調查的部分116年實施事實上我們有分兩階段有一些項目我們是118年才實施這部分會處理另外最後一個就是對於影響到的一個醫療院所基本上我們在下個禮拜四就會有這個草案的一個公聽演商"},{"start":313.507,"end":330.52,"text":"゚✧"},{"start":330.74,"end":358.457,"text":"所以我確定一下11月21號這一個研商會議會是很大型的會議還是說針對於比較醫院跟醫療機構相關的比較聚焦型的這個會議跟委員報告我們這是公開的公聽研商會公聽會所以大家都可以參加所以我們除了實體會議之外我們也開放視訊就是可以連上視訊之後一起來聽聽各界的意見跟給我們建言"},{"start":358.897,"end":384.949,"text":"了解所以我意思就是說如果這是很大型的公聽會那可能不只是醫療相關的院所可是因為我們知道醫院的廢棄物或者是這個排放水有它比較特殊的層面所以是不是也可以請師長這邊針對於醫療機構在這個部分有一個屬於比較聚焦型的相關會議能夠讓他們在執行的時候更能夠掌握到這些重點"},{"start":386.23,"end":409.369,"text":"好謝謝委員指教齁其實這個部分我們會遵照委員的指示例如說醫療院所或是相關的單位我們分門別類來處理因為這樣聚焦才可以得到更精準的意見好謝謝那我們也知道其實大家對於抗生素的使用都非常非常的擔心啦齁也希望能夠該用就應該用那如果可以做一個好的控制的話"},{"start":410.49,"end":428.593,"text":"最重要的是抗生素的抗藥性已經是全球要面對的問題那新型的抗生素要研發出來也相當的困難所以針對於這個抗生素的這些處理模式大家都會非常非常的需要去用更好的方式來處理"},{"start":429.514,"end":452.005,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":452.105,"end":477.507,"text":"相當的擔心那這些部分列管項目是不是能夠透過設備跟技術來做有效的這些污水處理那如何協助院所來辦法來做施行來有機會來達標那最後就是他們也很希望了解這個列管項目是不是跟國際標準一致那這部分不知道目前部裡面或者是施裡面有沒有相關的一些處理措施"},{"start":478.248,"end":481.495,"text":"包委員 這個其實是草案 現在在研議當中 我們細節請市長來報告"},{"start":483.59,"end":509.789,"text":"跟委員說明剛才提到的這三點基本上有關這個廢水中如果有排放這個抗生素的一個這個濃度如果過高我們基本上規定基本上是有一個疫警值那如果有疫警值的話就要採取作為包括這個汙水處理設備我們的調查發現汙水處理設備如果正常操作效能提升的話也是有很好的處理效力所以基本上我們會希望能夠輔導就是在處理技術上面的"},{"start":510.589,"end":537.874,"text":"與設備上能不能夠妥善處理達到處理的效能這是第一個如果處理效能沒有辦法達標的話進一步的改善的做法可以有一些評估的程序我們來協助看看怎麼樣跟衛福部做一些輔導的做法讓醫院的廢污水處理設備也能夠有一定的升級跟處理當然藥品的部分如果能夠妥善的去了解"},{"start":538.334,"end":564.475,"text":"因為基本上我們也是一個預警從環境的角度最後的角度來預警說這個用料用量跟回收有沒有其他可以加強的地方也是要醫院自主去做相關的一些檢視跟管理是了解那其實我們也知道國際有很多的這些先進國家也都有類似的管控措施所以我相信我們如果能夠繼續努力的話應該就可以把這些內容做得更好"},{"start":565.115,"end":588.037,"text":"最後是有關於醫院S口形式節能減碳的進度的部分我在上次10月7號的時候也有跟部長討論過這個問題這一次在兩個禮拜前去嘉義大埔考察有關於太陽光電造成的這種環境的影響"},{"start":589.258,"end":606.893,"text":"在現場跟業次長瞭解這部分針對於如何能夠節能檢探在醫療院所這部分那他也跟我做了一些說明那這個說明裡面就會包括說如何能夠深度的節能針對於尤其是大型醫院的部分那他"},{"start":607.433,"end":634.081,"text":"也讓我知道目前的進度即使是很值得大家共同關注那麼我也知道真的環境部做了很多很多的努力那這部分可不可以在年底之前也提供書面資料讓我這邊來做一些參考好謝謝報告委員因為這個是有三個部位金管會還有衛福部經濟部三個次長有一個平臺就特別來處理這個事情那我們現在平臺到最後討論完了結果年底之前再跟委員特別報告"},{"start":635.082,"end":636.426,"text":"邀請環境部部長列席報告業務"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1448,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["王委員正旭：還有水保司王司長。"],["主席：請王司長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，司長好。部長，今天想要跟你討論有關於「水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法」預告修正草案以後相關的內容，我們知道這個部分其實影響滿大的，尤其是對醫療院所來講，他們未來如何能夠根據環境保護，尤其是水資源的保護，有做更好的一些措施。我們也知道今天部長在做相關報告的時候，對於明年有關於環境保護，尤其在水資源保護部分，也下了很多的功夫，我想這是非常正確，而且是對整個臺灣環境有非常好的保護作用的一些比較前瞻式的做法。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：不過也因為它影響層面很大，所以利用這個機會來和部長做一些討論。","今年9月26日環境部做了一個預告修正，針對這個管理辦法，尤其是關於廢棄藥物跟一些全氟化學藥物對於環境的影響，因為我們知道如果使用抗生素不當管理的話，對於抗生素的抗藥性造成的影響是非常的大。如果是全氟化學藥物這一類對環境的影響，對環境造成污染或者是有過量的話，它對於癌症的產生也有滿大的疑慮，所以對民眾的影響其實都是滿大的。針對這一部分，特別規定一定規模以上的醫院及醫療機構都需要做相關的檢測申報，未來可能會每年都要做一些申報，在這部分很希望能夠有更多的瞭解及資訊，那為了因應這一些，環境部在6月5日也召開了諮商的座談會，應該是王司長主持的嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員正旭：在這個座談會裡面，衛福部也有派了官員去參加，當場衛福部其實是有提供一些意見來做參考，包括環境部進行更多醫院放流水的調查，要有一個比較明確的統一施行日期，希望在116年以後來施行。因為我們知道相關的醫院，尤其是公立醫院，如果他們要做這些改善的話，必須要依照預算編列的程序，在時程上可能有時候也需要確定地掌握他們這個程序的部分。","第二點，如果院內要進行加氯消毒作業等等的話，希望能夠針對大型醫院或醫學中心來辦理教育訓練及輔導，提升藥品削減成效，才能夠達到比較好的措施管控結果。","另外，有關於環境部要規劃相關環境費用的時候，醫療成本也會相對地提升，尤其是針對這些內容要做適當申報、監控的話，對於整體醫療的成本其實是會上升的，所以也希望能夠考量醫療成本提升以後對整個社會的衝擊。","第四點，它也希望環境部針對所有會影響到醫院及醫療機構的部分，包括長照機構及照護中心，都有一個比較聚焦型的會議來進行相關的處理。不知道到目前為止，針對衛福部的這些意見，部長或是司長有沒有其他需要說明的部分以及處理的進度？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的建議，其實目前就是照委員的建議正在進行當中，包含116年開始實施，我們就照這樣的方式進行，其實不管環境部或衛福部，都有對醫療院所的廢水處理進行教育訓練。","另外一個是社會的衝擊，我們也知道，因為驗一次也要花個9到10萬，所以的確會造成醫院的成本，但是也有一些醫生認為那個是醫院本來就要做的，所以也有一些正反的意見。","另外一個，目前我們在9月、10月包含11月，都會有一些研商的法案，細節的部分是不是請我們司長簡單地回應？"],["王委員正旭：好，麻煩司長。"],["王司長嶽斌：謝謝委員關心跟指教，我們包括調查的部分，包括116年實施，事實上我們有分兩階段，有一些項目是118年才實施，這個部分會處理。","另外，最後一個是對於影響到的醫療院所，基本上我們在下個禮拜四就會有草案的公聽研商會議，我們也會通知衛福部及相關的醫院，受影響的醫院，我們會一起來聽聽大家的意見，因為各界正反的意見都有，希望我們擴大辦理的也有，我們會再滾動地檢討。"],["王委員正旭：我確定一下，11月21日這個研商會議是很大型的會議，還是針對醫院及醫療機構相關的，比較聚焦型的會議？"],["王司長嶽斌：我們這個是公開的公聽研商會，公聽會，所以大家都可以參加。除了實體會議之外，我們也開放視訊，連上視訊之後，可以一起來聽聽各界的意見跟給我們的建言。"],["王委員正旭：瞭解，所以我的意思是說，如果這是一個很大型的公聽會，可能不只是醫療相關的院所，可是我們也知道醫院的廢棄物或者是排放水有它特殊的層面，所以是不是可以請司長這邊針對醫療機構，有一個屬於比較聚焦型的相關會議，讓他們在執行的時候更能夠掌握到這些重點？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員指教，我們會遵照委員的指示，例如說醫療院所或是相關的單位我們分門別類來處理，因為這樣聚焦才可以得到更精準的意見。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。我們知道大家對於抗生素的使用都非常非常地擔心，也希望能夠該用就應該用，如果可以做一個好的控制的話，最重要就是抗生素的抗藥性已經是全球要面對的問題，新型的抗生素要研發出來也相當地困難，所以針對抗生素的處理模式，大家都非常非常需要去用更好的方式來處理。","在這個修正草案裡面也提供了不同的新興關注項目，包括某一些抗生素跟後面要去處理的抗生素，在這邊我們可以看到，第一項是在115年1月1日開始適用，另外是118年會適用，其實醫院這邊也相當地擔心，包括這些列管項目是不是能夠透過設備跟技術來做有效的污水處理？如何協助院所於辦法施行後有機會來達標？最後就是他們也很希望瞭解這個列管項目是不是與國際標準一致，這部分不知道目前部裡面或者是司裡面有沒有相關的處理措施？"],["彭部長啓明：這個其實是草案，現在在研議當中，我們細節請司長來報告。"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員說明，剛才提到的這三點，有關廢水中如果排放抗生素的濃度過高，我們的規定基本上是有一個預警值，如果有預警值的話就要採取作為，包括污水處理設備，根據我們的調查發現，污水處理設備如果正常操作效能提升的話，也是有很好的處理效率，所以基本上我們會希望能夠輔導，就是在處理技術上面及設備上面能不能夠妥善地處理，達到處理的效能，這是第一個。","如果處理效能沒有辦法達標的話，進一步的改善做法可以有一些評估的程序，我們來協助看看怎麼樣跟衛福部有一些輔導的做法，讓醫院的廢污水處理設備也能夠有一定的升級跟處理。當然藥品的部分如果能夠妥善地去瞭解，因為基本上我們也是一個預警，從環境的角度、最後的角度來預警這個用量跟回收有沒有其他可以加強的地方，也是要醫院自主去做相關的檢視跟管理。"],["王委員正旭：是，瞭解。其實我們知道國際有很多先進國家都有類似的管控措施，所以我相信我們如果能夠繼續努力的話，應該可以把這些內容做得更好。","最後是有關於醫院ESCO形式節能減碳進度的部分，我上次在10月7日的時候也有跟部長討論過這個問題，這一次是在兩個禮拜前去嘉義大埔考察有關於太陽光電造成的環境影響，在現場有跟葉次長瞭解這一部分，針對醫療院所如何能夠節能減碳，他有跟我做了一些說明，在這個說明裡面就有包括如何能夠深度節能，尤其是大型醫院的部分，他也讓我知道目前的進度其實是很值得大家共同關注，那麼我們也知道環境部真的做了很多很多的努力，這一部分可不可以在年底之前提供書面資料，讓我這邊來做一些參考？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。報告委員，因為這個是有3個部會，金管會、衛福部、經濟部3個次長有一個平臺特別來處理這件事情，到最後討論完的結果，年底之前再跟委員特別報告。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}},{"id":"156917","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156917","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bef2f5ce43bf2591e827f3c0965abc3d476f857e4235ff5002dc82480404c6b195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:15:46 - 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的質詢當中我都有跟主委提到虛擬貨幣專法設立的速度還有我們的進程應該要加快雖然你這個工會已經有這個推動資歷規範但是還是稍嫌不足啦這個進度還是緩慢這是我們"},{"start":523.715,"end":546.121,"text":"這個非常關心的議題那無論是資本流動、金融穩定、監管體系、貨幣競爭還是這個網路安全虛擬貨幣市場的快速成長跟美國的支持都可能影響我國經濟跟金融的穩定那監管會是不是時刻都注意到市場的走向以應對這樣潛在的危險有沒有"},{"start":546.701,"end":570.224,"text":"是,謝委員喔,那個剛剛委員講的確實就是我們關注的啊剛剛委員也提到就是說我們對於虛擬幣的變化成熟這幾天的變化就可以看得出來像這類的投資工具的話波動非常的大會隨著消息面這樣的波動這也是我們在監管這個市場的時候我們按照我們的步驟其實我們並沒有慢相較於其他的國家我們並沒有慢"},{"start":570.925,"end":597.165,"text":"像比如說我們今年大概我們現在公布的那個虛擬資產幾個業態還有打炸的專法裡面就先把業態先把公布出來我們也承諾就是明年的6月會把我們的這個專法送進行政院就是因為這個這個是我們在台灣是全新的東西所以我們要必須非常謹慎但是我們也要看到觀察全球的發展的步伐就像我們在剛剛也開放了我們ETF的那個"},{"start":597.845,"end":621.721,"text":"所以比特幣的ETF其實也是在做一個試水溫的動作我想這部分全世界都在觀察那我們也是要比較穩健的來做這件事情那我們速度的部分應該是不會慢的好 這個主委要時刻注意齁這個要來管控這個虛擬市場的走向喔因為時間有限那 這個好 以上齁 謝謝謝謝 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能有68%的學生還是認為他還是過於狹隘啦那其實這個部分我們請教一下齁就是多元選課這個部分目前教育部收到了現場的狀況大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":579.099,"end":601.728,"text":"我想委員剛才所提的都有少數的學校會有這樣一個問題我們來精進但是也利用這個機會我要拜託我們所有的這些大學校長因為當我們在人才培育在典範改變的時候怎麼樣善用這個大學校長大學的資源我們知道在座的很多的大學校長他是支持的"},{"start":601.988,"end":603.969,"text":"部長講到重點,那也要大學校長願意同意他們的時數,他們的這個應該算是終點費,可不可以支撐他們去學校多元學費?可以嗎?願意的舉手好了"},{"start":618.92,"end":640.765,"text":"我知道我們有很多大學他是鼓勵老師的專長到高中去開課那甚至他們會納入這個老師的基本授課時數還會補充補助老師的交通費我想因為本來我們高中的老師他本來是以學科來培養當我們希望有學生有更多元的一些選擇"},{"start":642.205,"end":658.275,"text":"的一些機會的時候所以課程的終點費跟多元選課我們跟著能夠一起這個部分我們事實上一直在努力而且大學有許多的老師他們默默在協助高中職學生的一些多元的一些發展是"},{"start":658.715,"end":666.004,"text":"好 因為等一下主席可能30秒就會站起來好 我們今天帶主席不知道30秒會不會站起來時間有限 最後一題我來問一下下就是關於學習歷程檔案的這個部分那學習歷程檔案一直以來當然我們其實也討論過很多很多次"},{"start":676.898,"end":701.433,"text":"上次其實部長跟葉秉成次長也特別來我的辦公室也特別有特別提到這個學習歷程檔案的部分那我們必須說這個是訓練學生非常好的一個方式把自己的學習歷程不管是從高一、高二一直到了高三但是目前我們看到其實很多的學生他們比較擔憂的是高一、高二跟高三其實他們的學習歷程檔案跟他們的性向其實是會完全南轅北轍"},{"start":705.875,"end":725.346,"text":"接著下來可能要選擇大學的一個科系可能也跟他原本的學習歷程檔案其實也都完全不相關雖然大學教授可能會覺得說沒有關係就算你的學習歷程檔案跟我的科系其實沒有相關但我們還是依舊會看還是希望能夠把這個學習歷程檔案做得更加的完整"},{"start":725.806,"end":747.163,"text":"好當學習歷程做得更加的完成的時候其實就很多所謂的現場的歪風就出來了關學習歷程檔案你只要打上去所有的文章出現的時候中間可能就會夾帶一行叫做廣告學習歷程檔案不知道怎麼做嗎請點陳阿姨教你點進去就是補習班部長這個部分我們怎麼解套啊"},{"start":748.624,"end":766.609,"text":"我想確實這個來自於民間的許多的這個商業行為我想我們來努力因為就我們高中端的老師的提醒大概會用到補習班的不到2%所以其實他是非常低位那以我所理解的以臺大"},{"start":767.469,"end":793.647,"text":"我現在葉次長不到2%對不對你講到2%又剛剛好接著下來我要扣的主題上次其實葉秉成這個次長有特別講到他希望所謂的多元選才我們希望真的不要只有2%他希望再往更高的方向多元選才其實看的就是學習歷程檔案但是現在我們光是數字統計下來他不是2%耶糟糕了他只有1.5%耶他的門是這麼的窄"},{"start":796.309,"end":824.184,"text":"但是希望用學習歷程檔案多元選材的學生有將近30%以上喔沒有沒有我是剛好你講到的2%因為時間有限我先點出我要講的這些問題喔我是說多元選材看學習歷程檔案的門檻或者是條件我們是不是可以再放寬一點點讓更多想要因為學習歷程做得很好的學生可以侵入到他們理想的科系這沒有問題我們來研議看怎麼樣讓學生有真正能夠"},{"start":825.365,"end":826.907,"text":"二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學附設醫院作業基金、國立教育部所屬機"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時11分）謝謝主席，剛剛大家在休息的時間，差點要喊萬老師要上課了喔！有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長早安。今天這麼多的大學校長都在這裡，我們先來談一下0到6歲幼兒園的問題，從衛福部統計的性侵害案件，這是針對被害人跟兩造關係交叉的統計，我們可以看到從108年到112年，開宗明義的這個話題其實很沉重，身為母親的我看到這樣子的數據。我們發現在幼兒園的老師，這個老師可能包含幼教師和教保員，在幼兒園發生性侵害的案件，比例其實很高，這還是有通報的，案件數就高達15件，我相信還有更多是沒有辦法通報或沒有辦法成案的案件數，目前都還沉在海底。這個部分其實也給我們一個非常大的警訊，我們來探究一下幼兒園發生這些案件卻難以成案的關鍵原因在哪裡？第一，我相信0到6歲的孩子，他們在語言表達的能力上可能會稍微比較有一些限制，當父母親接收到孩子回家之後開始出現跟平常比較不一樣的異狀，甚至有自傷的情況，在我的選區，應該是說在我認養的不分區的責任區──桃園，日前就有一對家長他們是抱著心碎崩潰的態度來跟我陳情，因為他們發現孩子就是臺北市狼師性侵案幼兒園的故事翻版時，自己的孩子是受害人，其實爸爸、媽媽都崩潰了。第二個就是在證據蒐集上的困難，我們當然知道其實就像他所說的，孩子是一天一天慢慢地像擠牙膏似的把他在學校的經過很片段、不是連貫性的去闡述、去描述，或者是他去表達的時候，其實蒐證的證據可能都已經是兩、三個月，甚至半年之後。再來，即使有所謂的監視器，但是仍有保存的一些問題，或者是它剛好壞掉，又或者是在學校的這些教保人員或者是老師，是有可以刪除證據的權力或職權的時候，其實我們蒐證更加的困難。我想幼兒園安裝監視器其實是有它的必要性，昨天剛好全國幼教產業工會也特別表示，不反對幼兒園要全面安裝監視器，但是後端一些資料上的管理、資料上的保存，以及授權還有審查的部分，可能會需要中央政府這邊來做統一的管理。我想加裝的必要性，除了是保護孩子以外，最重要的就是當事件發生之後，如果有所爭議，不光是只有性侵害的事件，對於所謂的不當管教，其實安裝監視器對於所謂的老師，也是可以保護他們的權益啦！針對這個部分，請問部長您怎麼看？"],["鄭部長英耀：我非常同意委員所說的，關於監視器，我們當然一方面要保障幼兒的受教權益，幼兒都是每一個家庭的寶，他發生這些被侵犯的不幸，我們都非常不捨也難過。目前全國幼兒園的監視器大概已經裝到53%，我們也希望各地方政府在這一個部分能夠尋求共識，把還沒有裝的能夠補起來。另外還有一個重點，有時候現場在調閱的時候說已經壞掉了，針對這個部分，我們也提醒不應該用損壞的概念來搪塞這個事件，所以我們會加強監督並且跟地方合作。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果照部長的說法，應該還有47%還是需要再加強。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，大概還有一半，中央也會給予補助。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然最重要的是取得授權跟限制他的調閱權利及紀錄上的保存，看看怎麼樣可以儲存在雲端，相關的使用規範及調閱資料跟紀錄的規範，三個月之內可不可以提供給我們？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們希望能夠趕快全面的保護孩子，也讓家長能夠安心，因為很多家長都不願意這種事情發生在自己身上，對很多的爸爸媽媽來講，這也是一種保護，對孩子更是，對老師也是。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，這是應該做的。"],["郭委員昱晴：接下來我們來討論一下108課綱的現況，108課綱立意良善，但是配套不足，這是我對它的一個解釋。在第一個會期，就108課綱所帶來的衝擊，在教育現場不管是學生端、老師端或者是家長，他們對於108課綱所帶來的一些衝擊，目前都還有很多不同的看法，也產生許多不同的爭議。針對這個部分，我們先來探究一下老師跟學校是不是有足夠的時間跟資源可以幫助孩子的自主學習計畫。根據EdYouth的資料統計，相比2023年，2024年學生在自主學習的部分占最大的一個比例是「我根本想不到主題」，有48%的學生說：「學校安排自主學習的時間不夠讓我完成計畫」，第三名是「不了解該如何撰寫計畫書」雖然我們知道從108課綱開始有一些變動的時候，高中老師他們有一些時數是有相對的稍微降低一點點，大概平均是降低2到3堂，最主要是希望能夠讓老師也有充裕的時間來輔導這些沒有方向的孩子，讓孩子在所謂的自主學習上獲得幫助跟輔助，而他們也能夠有時間來準備課程，但是我們看到調查上的數據，似乎老師的loading還是蠻重的，這個部分部長怎麼看？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，108課綱確實對學生的學習上有一些典範的改變，我們過去的教學都比較是單向性，學生大概只是配合老師的一些教學進度，我們當然也希望學生在自主學習裡面，有一些時段能夠選擇自己在學科或者在許多興趣專長上的發展，那……"],["郭委員昱晴：這又衍生到第二個問題，今天因為時間的關係……"],["鄭部長英耀：針對這個部分，誠如委員剛才所提的，在許多師資、人力上，我們減少老師的行政工作，事實上也投入了1,400位老師，希望能夠在第一線上予以協助，降低老師許多的行政壓力，還有……"],["郭委員昱晴：我想協助學生還是……"],["鄭部長英耀：這時候老師就有更多的時間可以來協助學生學習。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想這是相對的，我們是往這個方向在努力、在前進當中。","第二個部分我想要問的就是所謂的多元選課到底有沒有多元，有很多現場第一線的老師特別來跟我們反映，甚至學生跟家長也特別來反映，他們說有一些多元選課會拿來補課，因為正課可能上不完，所以多元選課的時間可能會拿來做補課，或者是多元選課的科目是不有趣的，這個也是我們現場收到的一些訊息。這裡有一個圖表，比較關鍵的部分我們來看一下，這也是EdYouth的統計資料，在1,329份的調查當中，有449位說他選不到自己喜歡的課程，有456位學生說這個課程真的沒有辦法多元，所以也沒辦法找到自己有興趣的主題跟方式，所以選課的多元性，我相信可能有68%的學生認為它還是過於狹隘。其實這個部分我們請教一下，就是多元選課這個部分，目前教育部收到現場的狀況大概是怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想剛才委員所提的都有少數的學校會有這樣的問題，我們來精進，但是也利用這個機會我要拜託所有的大學校長，因為人才培育在典範改變的時候，怎麼樣善用大學校長……"],["郭委員昱晴：大學的資源、校長的資源。"],["鄭部長英耀：大學的資源，我們知道在座的很多大學校長是支持的，他們的……"],["郭委員昱晴：是，部長講到重點了，那也要大學校長願意同意他們的時數、他們的鐘點費，可不可以支撐他們去學校多元選課，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想也利用這個機會，過去的經驗……"],["郭委員昱晴：願意的舉手好了。"],["鄭部長英耀：我知道我們有很多大學是鼓勵老師的專長到高中去開課，甚至他們會納入這個老師的基本授課時數，還會補助老師的交通費。我想因為本來我們高中的老師，他本來是以學科來培養，當我們希望學生有更多元的一些選擇機會的時候……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以課程的鐘點費跟多元選課，我們真的能夠一起往上，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個部分我們事實上一直在努力，而且大學有許多的老師，他們也默默在協助高中職學生的一些多元的發展。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，因為等一下主席可能30秒就會站起來，我們今天代主席不知道30秒會不會站起來，時間有限。","最後一題，我來問一下關於學習歷程檔案的這個部分，學習歷程檔案一直以來，當然我們其實也討論過很多很多次，上次其實部長跟葉丙成次長特別來我的辦公室，也特別提到這個學習歷程檔案的部分。我們必須說這個是訓練學生非常好的方式，把自己的學習歷程從高一、高二，一直到高三。","但是目前我們看到其實很多的學生，他們比較擔憂的是在高一、高二跟高三他們的學習歷程檔案跟他們的性向其實是會完全南轅北轍。甚至接下來要選擇大學的科系可能也跟他原本的學習歷程檔案其實也都完全不相關。雖然大學教授可能會覺得沒有關係，就算你的學習歷程檔案跟我的科系其實沒有相關，但我們還是依舊會看，還是希望能夠把這個學習歷程檔案做得更加的完整。","當學習歷程做得更加完整的時候，其實有很多所謂現場的歪風就出來了，光學習歷程檔案，你只要打上去，所有的文章出現的時候，中間可能就會夾帶一行叫做廣告，學習歷程檔案不知道怎麼做嗎？請點「陳阿姨教你」，點進去就是補習班。部長，這個部分我們怎麼解套啊？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想確實這個來自於民間的許多商業行為，我想我們來努力，因為就我們高中端的老師的提醒，大概會用到補習班的不到2%，所以其實這是非常低的，以我所了解的，以臺大……葉次長……"],["郭委員昱晴：不到2%對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：不到2%。"],["郭委員昱晴：你講到2%，又剛剛好接著下來是我要扣的主題，上次其實葉丙成次長有特別講到，他希望所謂的多元選才，我們希望真的不要只有2%，他希望再往更高的方向。多元選才其實看的就是學習歷程檔案，但是現在我們光是數字統計下來，它不是2%耶，糟糕了！它只有1.5%耶，它的門是這麼的窄，但是希望用學習歷程檔案、多元選才的學生有將近30%以上……"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我是說會用……可能我剛才沒講清楚……"],["郭委員昱晴：沒有，我是因為剛好你講到2%，我的時間有限，我先點出我要講的這些問題。我是說多元選才看學習歷程檔案的門檻或者是條件，我們是不是可以再放寬一點點，讓更多想要因為學習歷程做得很好的學生可以進入到他們理想的科系，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：這沒有問題，我們來研議，看怎麼樣來讓學生真正能夠選擇他的生涯，能夠適性發展，有更好的機會。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們機會很多，我們隨時討論，滾動式的討論，謝謝我們的部長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，部長請回座，謝謝郭昱晴委員質詢。接下來請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基\n金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基\n金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金；三、審查114年度行政法人國\n家運動訓練中心預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00006"}}},{"id":"156915","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156915","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b6713e2d25bb7ea812a0d4a4306ab205f76f857e4235ff500f21262aa761bdb5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:15:57 - 11:24:34","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          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的指示?有沒有確實在做?我為什麼敢這樣講?"},{"start":154.537,"end":183.078,"text":"因為我這個報告看完了以後我覺得你們經濟部放水阿放得很嚴重阿放水放得很嚴重阿薄薄的三張紙薄薄的三張紙阿紙處理了什麼台元綠能涉及那麼多弊案你們經濟部一直跟社會講我們很認真阿我們移送減掉阿但是你移送出去的這三張紙阿"},{"start":184.523,"end":210.362,"text":"經得起社會的檢驗嗎?經得起社會的檢驗嗎?我為什麼這樣講啊來我們具體來看啊不是只有嘉義異族啊有問題啊台南七股也有問題啊台南七股的犯罪手法跟嘉義異族的犯罪手法如出一冊啊什麼叫如出一冊肥肉大的錢給外面的白手套賺"},{"start":212.179,"end":241.144,"text":"我們國家的台研綠能啊不要說吃骨頭啊大概分到一點點渣渣人家拿到的合約是上億啊我們台研綠能拿到的是一年分146萬你看到這樣子的合約經濟部當初所謂要貫徹要查綠能的弊案要清查台研綠能裡面的問題為什麼沒有清查到這一塊請教次長"},{"start":243.571,"end":258.163,"text":"這個我不清楚這個你不清楚嗎?好沒有關係一個禮拜之內書面回覆請台言含附為什麼經濟部的調查報告當初沒有報告這塊是要放水嗎?"},{"start":261.245,"end":288.007,"text":"還是台南有有利的人士不敢動你們不會放水來來來我帶次長看一下契約阿我講話向來有憑有據阿來看一下我們外面的白手套簽的約是什麼拿到上億元的約是說你這個光電業者跟我這個白手套簽約我其中一個服務項目是什麼我服務項目是我砍高阿"},{"start":289.738,"end":293.101,"text":"可以幫你負責拿到跟台研綠能的合約。哇!"},{"start":293.101,"end":294.402,"text":"這家鴻輝很厲害喔!"},{"start":294.402,"end":295.783,"text":"這家鴻輝非常的厲害喔!竟然還可以跟人家保證喔!"},{"start":295.783,"end":296.824,"text":"砍高啊!"},{"start":296.824,"end":297.585,"text":"可以跟台研綠能簽約喔!結果搞了半天什麼?"},{"start":297.585,"end":298.766,"text":"嚴重的利益輸送。經濟部的調查報告為什麼一個字都沒有提啊?"},{"start":317.452,"end":337.272,"text":"我老實講啦經濟部目前在這個案子裡面實際上面的表現是說一套做一套一個禮拜之內書面回覆告訴我這件事情你們當初為什麼沒有移送沒有處理請台研綠能解釋清楚可不可以來第二個次長你知不知道台研綠能從2023年到2024年的現在虧了多少錢"},{"start":343.615,"end":348.757,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":372.742,"end":398.778,"text":"我最近看阿2023年到現在今年的第三季喔不到兩年虧損超過4億阿虧損超過4億阿台元綠能的資本額是多少3.71億虧完阿要破產阿台元綠能這家公司經濟部的政策立場還要不要繼續持續下去"},{"start":400.234,"end":428.781,"text":"這我們內部有在做檢討了啊檢討的結果是什麼現在還沒有送上來是不是台原的母公司有建議經濟部說這個公司現在已經爛到底了啊把它收一收經濟部有沒有收到這樣的訊息還沒有還沒有看到這個確定沒有這樣的訊息沒有這個訊息台原綠能接下來要怎麼做經濟部要檢討到什麼時候會有答案這個你沒有還要檢討多久"},{"start":431.23,"end":446.799,"text":"這個因為我們還是內部再檢討一下好不好沒有關係啊一樣還要檢討多久一個禮拜之內書面回覆好我們書面回覆主席站起來了我不要耽誤其他委員的時間但我只講一句話啦賴清德總統對社會的宣誓啊你們經濟部啊"},{"start":448.246,"end":450.468,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":466.246,"end":488.231,"text":"至少是我們主動送給檢調的我剛就跟你講阿你2023年叫你主動喔陳婉蕙站在這邊質詢你們才送的啦你要騙我不知道喔阿你送要送的不乾不淨的送三張紙要笑死人喔那我就今天就很具體的問嘛台南七股的案子你什麼時候送的你又回答不出來應該是9月3號"},{"start":490.666,"end":514.646,"text":"九月三號送的來來來書面回覆今年九月三號送的去年九月三號送的你確定我跟你講喔在國會殿堂現在反正我們的憲法法庭說行政官員在國會殿堂說謊沒有關係嘛但我希望你們不要因此的信口開河你說送了一樣一個禮拜之內什麼時候送的書面回覆可以嗎好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":943,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請經濟部次長。"],["主席：請連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。賴清德總統昨天呼籲、重申打擊綠能犯罪，經濟部贊不贊成？"],["連次長錦漳：這個在法務部已經有成立一個平臺，已經開始在做了，這已經做……"],["黃委員國昌：法務部有法務部該做的事，經濟部有經濟部該做的事，我現在先問經濟部的立場，賴總統的呼籲，經濟部贊不贊成？"],["連次長錦漳：贊成啊。"],["黃委員國昌：有確實在做嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：有。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我就進一步來加以請教，臺鹽綠能的事情，最近有特定立場的媒體，我是不好意思稱綠色媒體，他們出來幫我們的前行政院長蘇貞昌歌功頌德、擦脂抹粉，說他三年多前就知道了，三年多前就知道，採取了什麼具體的作為，你知不知道？"],["連次長錦漳：我知道因為委員之前也有在關心這個問題，所以我們在112年……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在在請教你的不是我有沒有關心啦！"],["連次長錦漳：我們在112年就已經把這個案主動去送檢調。"],["黃委員國昌：所以到112年才送嘛！112年你們為什麼會送，知不知道原委？不知道？是蘇貞昌下令送的嗎？不是嘛！112年、2023年你們為什麼會送？因為我們台灣民眾黨黨團的前委員陳琬惠委員提出質詢，所以你們經濟部才送。"],["連次長錦漳：我們有去做行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：好，對、對、對，你送的報告，2023年列為密件，到2024年我再度去函的時候又不是密件了，因為不是密件，所以我才可以拿在手上，叫做普通件。次長，你們經濟部送出去的報告，你看過沒有？"],["連次長錦漳：我沒看過，因為那時候……"],["黃委員國昌：你沒有看過嘛，我跟次長報告，你順便回去跟部長報告，請部長回去好好看一看啦！你們經濟部2023年送出去的東西有沒有遵照賴總統的指示、有沒有確實在做，我為什麼敢這樣講？因為我看完這個報告以後，我覺得你們經濟部放水放得很嚴重，放水放得很嚴重啊，薄薄的三張紙，薄薄的三張紙只處理了什麼？臺鹽綠能涉及那麼多弊案，你們經濟部一直跟社會講：我們很認真啊，我們移送檢調啊。但是你移送出去的這三張紙禁得起社會的檢驗嗎？禁得起社會的檢驗嗎？","我為什麼這樣講，我們具體來看，不是只有嘉義義竹有問題，臺南七股也有問題，臺南七股的犯罪手法跟嘉義義竹的犯罪手法如出一轍，什麼叫如出一轍？肥肉、大的錢給外面的白手套賺，我們國家的臺鹽綠能不要說吃骨頭，大概分到一點點渣渣，人家拿到的合約是上億，我們臺鹽綠能拿到的是一年分146萬，你看到這樣的合約，經濟部當初所謂要貫徹、要查綠能的弊案，要清查台鹽綠能裡面的問題，為什麼沒有清查到這一塊？請教次長。"],["連次長錦漳：這個我不清楚，我要了解。"],["黃委員國昌：這個你不清楚嘛，好，沒有關係，一個禮拜之內書面回復。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["黃委員國昌：請臺鹽函復，為什麼經濟部的調查報告當初沒有包括這一塊？是在放水嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：我們不會放水。"],["黃委員國昌：還是臺南有有力的人士，所以不敢動？"],["連次長錦漳：不會啦！不會放水啦！"],["黃委員國昌：你們不會放水，來，我帶次長看一下契約，我講話向來有憑有據，來看一下外面的白手套簽的約是什麼，拿到上億元的約，就是這個光電業者跟白手套簽約，其中一個服務項目是什麼？服務項目是它來「牽猴仔」，可以幫你負責拿到跟臺鹽綠能的合約，哇！這家鴻暉很厲害，這家鴻暉非常地厲害，竟然還可以跟人家保證可以「牽猴仔」跟臺鹽綠能簽約，結果搞了半天是什麼？嚴重的利益輸送，經濟部的調查報告為什麼一個字都沒有提？我老實講，經濟部目前在這個案子裡面，實際上的表現是說一套、做一套。一個禮拜之內書面回復，告訴我這件事情你們當初為什麼沒有移送、沒有處理？請臺鹽綠能解釋清楚，可不可以？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，次長，你知不知道臺鹽綠能從2023年到2024年的現在虧了多少錢？"],["連次長錦漳：我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：我再秀給你看，臺鹽綠能不僅僅是充滿了酬庸，更是充滿了貪腐，裡面的人大概都是跟民進黨特定的權貴有關係，當董事長、當總經理，肥肉給外面跟自己關係好的廠商、自己兒子任職的廠商在賺，結果臺鹽綠能一路虧，我最近看，2023年到今年第三季，不到兩年，虧損超過4億，虧損超過4億，臺鹽綠能的資本額是多少？3.71億，虧完了，要破產了啊！以經濟部的政策立場，臺鹽綠能這家公司還要不要繼續存續下去？"],["連次長錦漳：這個我們內部有在做檢討了。"],["黃委員國昌：檢討的結果是什麼？"],["連次長錦漳：現在還沒有送上來。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是臺鹽的母公司有建議經濟部說這個公司現在已經爛到底了，把它收一收，經濟部有沒有收到這樣的訊息？"],["連次長錦漳：還沒有，還沒有看到這個……"],["黃委員國昌：確定沒有這樣的訊息？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有這個訊息。"],["黃委員國昌：臺鹽綠能接下來要怎麼做，經濟部要檢討到什麼時候會有答案？還要檢討多久？"],["連次長錦漳：這個我們還是內部再檢討一下，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，一樣，還要檢討多久，一個禮拜之內書面回復。"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們書面回復。"],["黃委員國昌：主席站起來了，我不要耽誤其他委員的時間。但我只講一句話，賴清德總統對社會的宣示，你們經濟部做的跟賴總統講的差太遠了啦，差太遠了啦！"],["連次長錦漳：沒有，跟委員報告，我們現在很努力在做這塊，你什麼時候也要……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦，你很努力在做這塊，那你就告訴我嘛，台鹽綠能、臺南七股的案子處理了沒有？"],["連次長錦漳：至少是我們主動送給檢調的。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛就跟你講，2023年送叫做你主動喔？陳琬惠站在這邊質詢，你們才送的，你要騙我不知道喔？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：那你送又送得不乾不淨的，送三張紙，要笑死人喔！我今天就很具體地問，臺南七股的案子你什麼時候送的，你又回答不出來。"],["連次長錦漳：應該是2022年9月3號。"],["黃委員國昌：9月3號送的，書面回復，今年9月3號送的？"],["連次長錦漳：不是、不是。"],["黃委員國昌：去年9月3號送的？"],["連次長錦漳：20……112年9月……"],["黃委員國昌：你確定？我跟你講，在國會殿堂，反正現在憲法法庭說行政官員在國會殿堂說謊沒有關係嘛，但我希望你們不要因此而信口開河。"],["連次長錦漳：我沒有說謊，我們只是日期沒有記清楚而已。"],["黃委員國昌：你說送了，一樣，一個禮拜之內，什麼時候送的，請書面回復，可以嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：中午不休息，延長會議時間。","現在請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156914","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156914","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b03e51ad49e8d66986b270dce3daca9a776f857e4235ff500f8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:14:55 - 11:20:14","影片長度":"00:05:19","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐富癸等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）至（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）至（七）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）、（五）、（六）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第（三）及（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。\n【第三、四案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T11:14:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T11:20:14+08:00","duration":319,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.79846875,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.344718750000002,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.40784375,"end":19.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.72409375,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.58471875,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.61846875,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.65221875,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.46221875,"end":22.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.96409375,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.52096875,"end":24.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.85409375,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.457218750000003,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.49096875,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.53721875,"end":32.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.570968750000002,"end":27.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.447843750000004,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.92846875,"end":37.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.19846875,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.932218750000004,"end":39.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.299093750000004,"end":41.492843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.65346875,"end":39.704093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.69096875,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.673468750000005,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.48409375,"end":190.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.73534375,"end":192.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.96284375000002,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.22721875000002,"end":203.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.22284375,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.11409375000002,"end":232.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.18034375000002,"end":235.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.70721875,"end":258.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.48846875000004,"end":267.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.09034375000005,"end":270.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.95909375,"end":273.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.76034375,"end":278.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.05909375000005,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.76784375,"end":311.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.83534375,"end":307.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.76284375,"end":315.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.77971875000003,"end":312.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.39096875,"end":315.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.86346875000004,"end":317.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.79971875,"end":318.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.83346875,"end":319.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.93034375,"end":319.96409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.25,"end":18.144,"text":"主席還有各位立院同仁相關單位的同仁們大家好因為運動方面我們都一直很關心那因為自己本身也是選手所以在運動部的這個組織法我們知道今天是這個林委員你要邀請誰上台請輸入人事長"},{"start":27.591,"end":27.611,"text":"委員長"},{"start":47.851,"end":50.613,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具吳沛憶等21人擬具吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":67.646,"end":90.802,"text":"因為我本身是原住民,我們也知道在奧運今年的獎項,原住民的比例也佔的蠻高的。我們知道賴總統其實在原住民的這個區塊也投注了一些未來希望能夠再推動的資源。這個部分我就希望能夠先做一個提醒,因為目前這個資源在原民相關的單位。"},{"start":91.863,"end":92.243,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":121.102,"end":140.09,"text":"這是我往下一個單項協會問題之前我要先做一個嫁接跟平台還沒有到這邊但是也就是說我們其實有提出一些相關的案在原住民的聘用比例上應該要有一定的比例當然這個是比較在署裡面的這個問題但是我們也請這個院裡面能夠在這個區塊幫我們做一個思考"},{"start":144.432,"end":169.8,"text":"那至於這個行政架構上我這邊也很期待能夠有一個在體育運動部下面能夠有一個原住民相關的專屬單位來做處理我們可以做一個思考那當然未來我們可能在法規上還有在這個提案上大家有機會做個討論但是如果有這樣一個機會那也請行政院這邊來支持"},{"start":171.841,"end":172.041,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":191.397,"end":212.103,"text":"謝謝蘇貞市長,請回答,請黃副署長。黃副,那我想這個問題應該很多人都提過,那我們在巴黎或者是我們在很多的這個交流上我們都提到那個運動部如何跟單項協會的這個不僅是共存而是在政治不介入體育的前提下我們怎麼讓單項協會"},{"start":214.404,"end":214.865,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":241.983,"end":243.223,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":268.231,"end":268.632,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":280.29,"end":303.876,"text":"謝謝副座所以我這邊還是很強力的提醒你們如何在這個制度裡面在人的部分跟錢的部分做一個處理跟控管然後作為選手的我我們都知道整個單項協會一直到下面包括比賽的消失或者是比賽的狀況這個我們都整個體系知道很清楚但是除了你們有專責那如何在制度層面上能夠處理這個問題我想這都是我們應有的責任"},{"start":306.897,"end":307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等\n16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員陳冠\n廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案；三、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分；四、審查 114年度中央政府總預算\n案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部\n分【第三、四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310001_00001"}}},{"id":"156913","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156913","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bb87f3beaf2d79ce02a0d4a4306ab205f76f857e4235ff500883b0731a2b3b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:05:04 - 11:15:51","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T11:05:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T11:15:51+08:00","duration":647,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.054718750000003,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.89409375,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.46721875,"end":18.660968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.94784375,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.187843750000003,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.33846875,"end":31.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.291593750000004,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.595343750000005,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.90721875,"end":39.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.97409375,"end":39.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.37909375,"end":42.758468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.68659375,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.12471875,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.96784375,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.203468750000006,"end":60.46034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.540343750000005,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.53596875,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.19784375,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.31159375,"end":69.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.34909375000001,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.16284375000001,"end":76.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.99784375,"end":81.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.98409375,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.65909375000001,"end":84.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.26659375,"end":86.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.42659375000001,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.46846875,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.32909375,"end":91.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.89846875,"end":94.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.75034375,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.40846875000001,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.53034375,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.00284375000001,"end":99.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.12471875,"end":107.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.63034375000001,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.81159375,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.03034375,"end":113.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.85284375,"end":114.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.50659375000001,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.33721875,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.38659375,"end":134.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.38534375,"end":141.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.01721875,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.02534375000002,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.03346875,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.45534375,"end":147.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.20596875,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.92721875,"end":152.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.18846875,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.67284375,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.74284375000002,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.71721875,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.55659375000002,"end":175.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.80096875,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.44971875000002,"end":183.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.28909375,"end":186.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.65159375000002,"end":189.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.02659375000002,"end":192.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官司的答話兩位主委您看法"},{"start":112.059,"end":114.225,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":115.578,"end":142.551,"text":"我用不官式的答話來答一下好了我想陳玉珍委員當然是為了金門的發展那他希望說透過這樣設立一個自由貿易區他能夠讓金門能夠吸引更多的大陸來的投資大陸來的人員大陸來的勞工或是大陸來的醫生等等這樣子"},{"start":143.892,"end":149.997,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":169.813,"end":193.308,"text":"條例第12屆第13期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第"},{"start":194.793,"end":214.398,"text":"另外兩岸的關係目前非常的嚴峻緊張還沒有動刀動子彈的時候我們就以經濟自由冒機跟他打一場仗阿你們不敢接受挑戰把雙門關起來等一下怕他們人員進來怕他們物流進來怕"},{"start":217.83,"end":244.744,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正"},{"start":246.229,"end":260.74,"text":"最後一句話因為這個問題問起來就時間又久了你記得中國一句口話永遠記得千金買屋萬金買出兵不要隨地的挑釁"},{"start":261.991,"end":286.836,"text":"因為這一場我也不曉得未來怎麼樣跟你們的總統的好朋友同時前董事長說現在台灣要去馬祖廟去拜拜知道未來的前途在哪裡其實你要展現台灣人之心不要碰到中國大陸就一面的汙衊人的進步也有長處美國也有長處稍微站好一點"},{"start":289.226,"end":314.117,"text":"好了啦,這個問題談了很久,給你一個創新的觀念。媽祖保佰佰保佰勒,誇哉一瓶贏啊。 再來。 我想跟我說一句,那個現在大陸的海警船每個月至少有五到六次會進入金門的淨限制水域,對金門來說是一個很大的壓力,對我們的海巡、海防來說是一個很大的壓力。 對我們當然是壓力,海軍嘛。"},{"start":314.537,"end":338.702,"text":"自由貿易起來就不會不一定這樣你不要用這個這個是兩岸情勢關係緊張所有話為什麼以前都沒有現在很多你再多講大家對這個問題再辯論得越多我告訴你實際的觀點我是告訴物質主義我們實在看兩邊的情形不要看到這樣的情形這樣這樣好嗎?好啊好啊兩天再來論這個問題"},{"start":343.413,"end":358.355,"text":"條例第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13"},{"start":360.205,"end":386.77,"text":"關於我們離岸婚禮的國產化。國產化本來政府在輔導一個四季崗、一個中崗。中崗一共投資了64億,結果一無所成。害死他的協力廠商。我叫你們調查報告會沒有人來報告。你這是關關相為。雖然它是屬於民間公司,但是你換關股是最大的。"},{"start":388.558,"end":391.445,"text":"我現在說這個事情我還要問國安委所以國安委投資六十四天好像輕輕鬆鬆就沒有了"},{"start":397.452,"end":419.627,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案、第十一條條文修正草案、第十二條條文修正草案、第十三條條文修正草案、第十四條條文修正草案、第十五條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文"},{"start":420.387,"end":428.973,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":445.782,"end":471.317,"text":"張宗盲已經講了,治愈化已經試了,免驚,美國就不遵守啦,不提供啊,咱那遵守那拐丟。其實這裡面我覺得問題重重很多,這一點我希望有一個報告出來。還有一點,現在啊你們一直在講,要電,要台積電,啊不要有電廠,不過跟咱討論也比較思維。"},{"start":474.42,"end":496.493,"text":"我現在來講,譬如要做水庫,現在剛好颱風天下了很多,大家都說不清水,就忘了清水是痛苦。安裝水庫做不起來。第一,合理的補充。第二,你水庫現在做的,會有發電廠。發電廠你讓地方的政府去公辦民營,有時間去打,今天人照顧得好。"},{"start":497.81,"end":507.521,"text":"條例第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13"},{"start":509.847,"end":533.502,"text":"來,地方住去協調好,做好了,會容然公辦民營,台積電做莊,你們不是台積電,你們台電做莊為什麼?你們好幾家發電公司都是你們投資的很大可能你公家的這樣子,你在座會有困難啊你怎麼不想個辦法去改變,一定要死守這樣"},{"start":535.274,"end":547.404,"text":"再來,我又跟你講,你跟農業部隊,現在工糧收購,十幾年沒企業,現在人家要提個六塊,這樣要死要哭了。阿都說農民會種,來,不適宜更種的話,去推農電工廠。現在這個機制都可以,你哪有想辦法,天天都在哭,阿不可以想辦法來改革。"},{"start":562.296,"end":582.487,"text":"還有今天水利使的有沒有來?你把全省的河川寬度5公尺、3公尺、10公尺的那個河川把它蓋在沒有人利潤氣發電沒有人會寬度不是小水利發電小水利發電你不要這樣把我管得好不好"},{"start":583.547,"end":602.896,"text":"我們這邊有時候下雨,有時候沒有下雨,那發展不是天然發展,那好像刻畫。跟水利子的心情,就讓他們開心,就讓他們有煩惱在。我是河川裡面有一些溪流五公尺,那邊你把它拿來,就不會。"},{"start":604.016,"end":630.89,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。你倆就很好推展。你們去衝到南部、衝到未看好。大家都很反感。跟你們說整個不爽嘞。你們不在地方一直不知道。如果你這個好好規劃,我會跟你講規劃。我會跟你們講怎麼溝通。這些問題你們官內都是高高在上。沒有到地方基層了解民眾的聲音。真的改進加強。"},{"start":631.79,"end":634.853,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":912,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時5分）主席好，首先有請國發會的彭副主委，還有陸委會梁副主委。"],["主席：彭副主委，梁副主委。"],["陳委員超明：兩位副主委好。"],["彭副主任委員立沛：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：關於離島建設條例第十八條條文修正案，陳玉珍委員提出來，他為了促進離島經濟及產業發展，指定地區設置離島自由貿易示範區，但是我剛剛聽到執政黨、民進黨的立委一昧地堅決，一昧地反對，我在這邊常常想，抗中、反中、保臺也講了幾十年，但是臺灣是一個自由進步發達的國家，我不知道兩位，彭副主委跟梁副主委的看法是怎樣？你說一下，你是不是反對到底？"],["彭副主任委員立沛：跟委員報告，因為有關離島建設條例要設立自由貿易港區的問題在於還有一個更高位階的中央政府職權，我想還是要依循中央的政策，在兩岸條例的架構下來跟大陸地區……"],["陳委員超明：官式的答話，梁副主委，你的看法？也是官式的答話？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我用不官式的答話來答一下好了，我想陳玉珍委員當然是為了金門的發展，他希望透過這樣設立一個自由貿易區，讓金門能夠吸引更多的大陸來的投資、大陸來的人員、大陸來的勞工或是大陸來的醫生等等，這個發展到……"],["陳委員超明：我覺得你把它偏離了，金門是有多大？勞工可以請多少人？金門的醫療設施，醫護人員來這邊要給誰服務？你說臺灣是一個發達的國家，你就沒有這樣的信心向中國大陸拿出臺灣自由民主進步的精神，碰到中國大陸，你就把門關起來，就以國安問題維護，我覺得執政黨沒有一點前瞻氣魄去挑戰中國大陸來開放設置，用民主自由進步來跟你大陸比較，你們卻沒有，唉唷！國安的問題會怎麼樣，你們講得好像很強硬，其實體質很虛。另外，兩岸關係目前非常嚴竣緊張，還沒有動刀、動子彈的時候，我們就以經濟自由貿易區跟他打一場仗，你們不敢接受挑戰，把國門關起來，等一下怕他們人員進來、怕他們物流進來、怕醫療人員進來，你就大方一點，臺灣那麼強你在怕什麼？所以你們是講一套，做一套，我覺得思維要改，美國跟中國在爭霸，第一大經濟體跟第二大經濟體，我們剛好在旁邊，我們要站直一點，要學台電做消波塊，你的陸委會功能很重要。","最後一句話，因為這個問題問起來時間又長了，你記得中國一句古話，永遠記得「千金買屋，萬金買厝邊」，不要隨地的挑釁，因為這一場我也不曉得未來怎麼樣，你們總統的好朋友童子賢董事長說，現在臺灣要去媽祖廟拜拜才能知道未來的前途如何。其實你要展現臺灣人的自信，不要碰到中國大陸就一昧地污衊，人要進步也要嘗試，美國也要嘗試，要站穩一點啦！好了啦！這問題談了很久，給你一個創新的觀念，向媽祖婆拜拜擲筊看哪一邊贏。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員，讓我說一句，現在大陸的海警船每個月至少有五到六次會進入金門的禁限制水域，對金門來說是一個很大的壓力，對我們的海巡、海防來說都是一個很大的壓力。"],["陳委員超明：對我們海軍當然是壓力，開始自由貿易就不一定這樣，你不要用這個，這是因為兩岸情勢關係緊張，所以為什麼以前都沒有，現在很多？你再多說，大家對這個問題就會辯論越多，我跟你說實際的觀點，我是務實主義，我們看兩邊實際的情形，不要看到這樣的情形還這樣說，到此為止就好了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["陳委員超明：改天再來辯論這些問題，請回座。","請經濟部連次長。"],["主席：請連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：連次長，我有問你們經濟部郭部長關於離岸風力的國產化，國產化本來政府在輔導世紀鋼、中鋼，中鋼一共投資了64億，結果一無所成，還害死它的協力廠商，我向你們要調查報告也沒有人來報告，你這是官官相衛，雖然它是屬於民間公司，但是你泛官股是最大的，我現在說這個事情，我還要問國發會。"],["連次長錦漳：是興達海基……"],["陳委員超明：國發會投資64億，好像輕輕鬆鬆就沒有了，怎麼這麼快！還有一點，你硬的做不起來，只有吃軟的，還要組織一間綠能公司去買綠能發電、再生能源賣給企業，哇！我不知道你們怎麼這麼照顧它，一家世紀鋼就能做起來，你們做不起來？南部一些協力廠商被害得很慘，我希望這件事情好好做，我也希望未來經濟委員會能安排考察中鋼，它的國產化自製率，世紀鋼國產化的自製率，還有西門子如何在臺灣國產化的自製率，你不要跟我講歐美要告我們WTO，你們就怕得要死，張忠謀已經講了，自由化已經死了，不用怕！美國就沒有遵守WTO啊，我們還這麼遵守、這麼乖，其實這裡面我覺得問題重重，這一點我希望有一個報告出來。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["陳委員超明：還有一點，現在你們一直在講，要電、要台積電，不要有電廠，我說頭腦也要轉一下，我現在跟你說，譬如要做水庫，現在剛好颱風天下了很多雨，大家都說不缺水，都忘了缺水之痛苦，怎麼水庫會做不起來？第一個，合理的補償；第二個，水庫現在做了，可以有發電廠，發電廠你讓地方政府去公辦民營有收入，周邊的人照顧好，其實很可行，你們現在說要開發電廠，民眾反對，錢都你們賺了，在地方只有「放雞屎」，什麼收入也沒有，來，地方政府去協調好，做好了也公辦民營，你們台電做莊，為什麼？你們好幾家發電公司都是你們投資的很大，可能公家的這樣子，你再做也有困難，怎麼不想個辦法改變，一定要這樣死守？","再來，我再跟你說，你跟農業部，公糧收購十幾年沒漲價，現在只漲個6塊，這樣就要叫苦連天，他說農民會種，來，不適宜耕種的話，去推農電共生，現在這個技術都可以，你們要想辦法，天天在那邊叫苦，卻不會想辦法解決，還有今天水利署有沒有來？"],["連次長錦漳：有。"],["陳委員超明：你把全省的河川寬度5公尺、3公尺、10公尺的河川，利用河川開發綠能發電，沒有人會反對。"],["連次長錦漳：小水力發電。"],["陳委員超明：不是小水力發電，你不要這樣拐我好不好？我們這邊有時候下雨，有時候沒有下雨，發電不是天天發電，就像「洘旱」，跟水利署的心情一樣，下雨就高興，但下大雨就煩惱了，河川裡面有一些溪流5公尺的，那邊你把它拿來用，綠能就很好推展，你們把南部弄得很糟糕，大家都很反感。跟你們說幾個招數，你們沒有在地方在跑不知道，如果你這個好好規劃，我會跟你講怎麼規劃，我會跟你們講怎麼溝通這些問題，你們官員都是高高在上，沒有到地方基層了解民眾的聲音，真的要改進加強，我跟你說，我們來研究一些確實可以改變的地方。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["陳委員超明：尤其農業部要好好討論，它在煩惱的問題，想一兩招就破解掉了，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：我們會後再來請教委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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漲破高板啦美金啦後來它就下來那有下來那當然有可能它會上去啦那為什麼現在比特幣它的交易那麼樣的熱絡然後這個趨勢是不斷的往上甚至美國的一些報導裡面他們還說有可能喔比特幣一枚會漲到大概30萬"},{"start":133.856,"end":135.658,"text":"不過委員你這樣講我看的訊息呢他是說大概是15萬是一半啦不管是15萬不管是30萬那我當初講的是6千塊啊6千塊如果漲到15萬的話哇"},{"start":152.392,"end":155.275,"text":"好大的一個差距耶不過我想我也藉這個機會我藉這個機會我來就是說對於委員的高見"},{"start":165.189,"end":180.121,"text":"預測的能力我也非常非常的佩服真的嗎是的沒有錯我非常佩服就是我建議的其實你只要卓宇參考你不要買多嘛買個100億接下來你再買200億這個對央行來講都是"},{"start":190.79,"end":191.171,"text":"總裁我更佩服你不是壓對寶啦"},{"start":217.165,"end":220.83,"text":"因為在這個年初的時候那個"},{"start":222.777,"end":230.221,"text":"麥克哈布比那時候就來台灣跟我一個朋友Dr."},{"start":230.221,"end":248.452,"text":"King他請他來台灣有多次的交流我們那時候就請他分析一下當然因為他女兒是阿肯色州的州長過去在川普的很核心所以當然他是分析了很多當然是支持"},{"start":251.564,"end":270.739,"text":"川普一定會當選所以當然都會有兩面也許賀錦麗當選事實上我們就應該要建立一個沙盤推演A當選是怎麼樣B當選是怎麼樣我們看到川普當選了以後就是他大力推動了虛擬貨幣不斷的上漲"},{"start":274.742,"end":294.096,"text":"跟那個Mask一樣他手上也持有很多的虛擬貨幣所以這個影響到台灣的未來從台灣看世界我們可以發現新加坡的人均GDP這15年來這一路的成長台灣有成長但是"},{"start":295.38,"end":304.433,"text":"這個差距越來越大面對未來新的挑戰本席想請教一下總裁對於這些虛擬貨幣的一些資產以及"},{"start":309.045,"end":328.413,"text":"監管會我們也是金龍彭主委推動了整個亞太的一個資產管理中心至少一個目標嘛其中的這一環就是虛擬資產的處理這個你不可以去逃避的嘛那請問央行的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":329.573,"end":351.968,"text":"我覺得就是說據我了解就是說今晚會的態度他要對於虛擬貨幣開始要監管而且他有他的步驟步驟會不會太慢應該也不會啦應該也不會川普已經選上了你不要等他四年任期到了以後他要監管的意思也就是說他會注意到這一塊的一個發展"},{"start":352.768,"end":354.97,"text":"當然從經理的立場來看的話要讓他發展就是說正常的發展當然是要監管所以我覺得監管會在這一方面他是踏出了一個非常正確的一步我們希望這個步伐可以跟得上國際的潮流"},{"start":374.389,"end":394.379,"text":"總裁,你這樣講起來的話,就是你會站比較正面的態度,重新來思考比特幣在台灣的交易嗎?我想呢,既然他就是說是要監管它的話呢,只要就是說,第一個,它的交易呢,不要就是說是洗錢啊,"},{"start":396.522,"end":403.335,"text":"還有就是說洗錢的這些必須要注意還有就是說他是一個capital"},{"start":405.151,"end":427.42,"text":"的一個漏洞那這些如果說能夠把它監管得很好的話讓它發展我覺得也是應該是好謝謝我們要拉回來就是說美國能做我們要與時俱進美國能做我們要趕快要做他一定有他的戰略考量有他未來性的一個思考所以希望這一塊的話央行可以採取比較"},{"start":431.263,"end":433.365,"text":"人民幣跟比特幣那是不能相提並論你知道美國政府啊他們國家國庫裡面有沒有比特幣"},{"start":454.773,"end":459.736,"text":"沒有,應該是有,有我告訴你,它那個有是它沒收的啦,它是沒收的或是什麼的海關那些是沒收的啦,那不是說它的外匯存底去投資這個比特幣,不是我在想的那表示它財產裡面有比特幣,如果不是資產的話,它就不會列在上面"},{"start":479.167,"end":488.146,"text":"因為他是資產所以他變成是美國政府的一個資產嘛我想那個是很小一部分另外啦這就"},{"start":489.525,"end":513.008,"text":"想的一個問題就是現在中國大陸對美國他持有多少美國的公債他也持了不少啊幾兆據我了解3.6兆他也是在日本之後的樣子日本持有很多啊日本持有很多所以他是我現在不能很確定以前"},{"start":513.689,"end":530.868,"text":"俄羅斯有沒有持有美國的公債應該有吧國債有啦好像一兆多吧我不曉得你知道那個俄烏戰爭的以後那俄羅斯對美國的這個國債的部分是不是就一筆勾銷了"},{"start":532.004,"end":540.028,"text":"他的資產在國外的資產就被凍結了那美國不是專辦了嗎?你打個帳就凍結,欠的錢就不要還了那他會不會為了美國的利益考量你大陸趕快打啊,台灣趕快打啊,打完那我們的買了美國的債券那我們是不是全部又一筆勾銷了"},{"start":558.395,"end":561.416,"text":"有沒有這個可能啊?為什麼?誰說不會?基於什麼的理由?那為什麼俄羅斯會?萬一會的話怎麼辦?"},{"start":574.401,"end":577.583,"text":"萬一會的話?你覺得不會啊?那為什麼俄羅斯會?為什麼俄羅斯會?當然不能類比啊可是這個例子就是說他已經會了啊"},{"start":591.132,"end":604.196,"text":"那為什麼台灣就一定不會?不過你說美國因為委員就也知道就是說我們歐友美國的債券蠻大的啦那你說他會來凍結我們的那個歐友的那個我覺得是不可能的那總裁你認識那個川普總統嗎?當然我認識他他不認識我啦問題就是你認識他你不知道他在想什麼"},{"start":621.12,"end":637.166,"text":"然後他要做什麼他明天也不會跟你講啊所以現在我們最重要的就是保持自我的彈性不要完全百分之百受制於人是不是從來對不對我們希望可以彈性多一點針對不確定性就是要彈性所以我們需要的就是"},{"start":646.71,"end":649.252,"text":"臺電因為虧損要撥補到一千億那大家我問起來朝野很多委員大家都反對"},{"start":673.916,"end":690.247,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":690.747,"end":703.896,"text":"去年央行提交國庫交了多少?我們今年是2000億去年是1850億的樣子所以央行比較會賺啊1800億的樣子我忘了那其他地方不行就拜託央行了"},{"start":711.121,"end":714.647,"text":"謝謝羅明財委員接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢顏寬恒委員質詢完畢我們休息10分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":957,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時3分）主席、各位出列席官員，大家好。主席，請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請央行楊總裁。"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁你好。"],["楊總裁金龍：羅委員早。"],["羅委員明才：今天財委會閃閃發光，兩位「金ㄌㄨㄥˊ」同列一旁，還有加上財政部的努力，希望可以力抗美國即將在未來這幾年內，一波又一波的關稅壓力以及經濟市場的競爭！","請問總裁，現在臺灣的外匯存底是多少金額？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們大概是五千七百多億。"],["羅委員明才：這十年來不斷的成長。"],["楊總裁金龍：最近一、兩年成長的比較少。"],["羅委員明才：比較少一點，但趨勢是這樣上來的。"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，我們也慢慢要增加……"],["羅委員明才：不過很可惜的兩個事情，第一個，本席在十年前建議大量買進黃金，每盎司大概在1,300塊的時候沒有買；第二個事情比較遺憾的就是，我也是同樣在這個地方質詢的時候，我說總裁可不可以參考一下，買入一些虛擬貨幣，比特幣（Bitcoin）那時候不到美金6,000塊！總裁，你知道現在黃金一盎司多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：黃金一盎司大概是兩千七百左右。"],["羅委員明才：兩千多、兩千五，這個成長了很多；另外一個虛擬貨幣比特幣，現在一枚比特幣多少錢，昨天？"],["楊總裁金龍：將近八萬多。"],["羅委員明才：昨天破9萬美金！"],["楊總裁金龍：後來它有下來。"],["羅委員明才：有下來，當然有可能還會再上去。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["羅委員明才：為什麼現在比特幣的交易那麼熱絡，然後這個趨勢是不斷的往上？甚至美國的一些報導還說，有可能比特幣一枚會漲到大概30萬美金喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我看的訊息大概是15萬。"],["羅委員明才：15萬。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以一半啦！"],["羅委員明才：沒關係，不管是15萬，不管是30萬，我當初講的是6,000塊，6,000塊如果漲到15萬的話，哇，好大的一個差距！"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我想我也藉這個機會……"],["羅委員明才：二十幾倍耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：我藉這個機會表達，對於委員的高見、預測能力我也非常非常的佩服。"],["羅委員明才：真的嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是的，沒有錯，我非常佩服！"],["羅委員明才：佩服沒有用……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，不是說……"],["羅委員明才：但是我建議的其實你只要酌予參考，你不用買多嘛，買個100億，跌下來你再買200億。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我……"],["羅委員明才：這對央行來講都是九牛一毛。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，不過我說我對委員很佩服這是一回事……"],["羅委員明才：沒有，不敢，我更佩服你。"],["楊總裁金龍：中央銀行是不是要involve在這一方面又是另外一回事。"],["羅委員明才：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：我佩服你的意思也不是說我們就一定要這樣子做，當然我們必須要承認委員是押對寶了。"],["羅委員明才：沒有、沒有，總裁，我更佩服你，不是押對寶啦！因為年初的時候Mike Huckabee來臺灣，我的一位朋友Dr. King請他來臺灣有多次的交流，我們那時候就請他就是分析一下，但因為他女兒是阿肯色州的州長，過去也是在川普的很核心，所以他分析了很多當然是支持Donald Trump，就是川普一定會當選，當然都會有兩面，也許賀錦麗當選。","事實上，我們就應該建立一個沙盤推演，A當選是怎麼樣、B當選是怎麼樣，我們看到川普當選了以後，他大力推動了虛擬貨幣，因此不斷的上漲，跟那個Musk一樣，他手上也持有很多的虛擬貨幣，所以這個影響到臺灣的未來！從臺灣看世界，我們可以發現新加坡的人均GDP這十五年來一路成長，臺灣有成長但是這個差距越來越大。","面對未來新的挑戰，本席想請教一下總裁，對於這些虛擬貨幣資產以及金管會──也是「金ㄌㄨㄥˊ」，彭主委推動的整個亞太資產管理中心至少有一個目標嘛，其中的這一環就是虛擬資產的處理，這個你不可以逃避，請問央行的態度是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：據我了解，金管會的態度是對於虛擬貨幣開始要監管，而且它有它的步驟……"],["羅委員明才：步驟會不會太慢？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該也不會！"],["羅委員明才：川普已經選上了，你不要等他四年任期到了以後……"],["楊總裁金龍：它要監管的意思也就是，它會注意到這一塊的發展。從監理的立場來看，要讓它正常發展當然要監管，所以我覺得金管會在這一方面踏出了一個非常正確的一步。"],["羅委員明才：我們希望這個步伐可以跟得上國際的潮流。總裁，你這樣講起來的話，你會站比較正面的態度重新來思考比特幣在臺灣的交易嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想既然是要監管它的話，第一個主要是它的交易不要是洗錢……"],["羅委員明才：洗錢防制。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就是洗錢的這些必須要注意，還有它是一個capital flows的漏洞，這些如果說能夠把它監管得很好的話，讓它發展我覺得應該也是好的。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝，我們現在拉回來，美國能做，我們要與時俱進，美國能做，我們要趕快做，他一定有他的戰略考量，有他未來性的思考，所以我希望這一塊央行可以採取比較開闊的心胸。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：比如說我請教一個，我們外匯存底裡面有沒有人民幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：人民幣也有一部分。"],["羅委員明才：你都可以有人民幣，你為什麼不可以有比特幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：人民幣跟比特幣不能相提並論。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，你知不知道美國政府的國庫裡面有沒有比特幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，應該沒有。"],["羅委員明才：有！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟你說，他們有那是他沒收的，海關沒收的，那不是他的外匯存底去投資比特幣，我想應該不是。"],["羅委員明才：那表示他財產裡面有比特幣，如果不是資產的話，它就不會列在上面，所以它變成是美國政府的一個資產嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我想那個是很小一部分。"],["羅委員明才：另外，現在中國大陸對美國，他持有多少美國的公債？"],["楊總裁金龍：他持有的也不少。"],["羅委員明才：幾兆？"],["楊總裁金龍：據我了解……"],["羅委員明才：3.6兆？"],["楊總裁金龍：他也是在日本之後的樣子。"],["羅委員明才：日本持有很多。"],["楊總裁金龍：日本持有很多，我現在不能很確定啦！"],["羅委員明才：以前俄羅斯有沒有持有美國的公債？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該有吧！"],["羅委員明才：國債有啦！好像一兆多吧！"],["楊總裁金龍：我不曉得。"],["羅委員明才：俄烏戰爭發生以後，俄羅斯對美國國債的部分是不是就一筆勾銷了？"],["楊總裁金龍：他在國外的資產就被凍結。"],["羅委員明才：那美國不是賺翻了嗎？你打個仗，資產就被凍結，欠的錢就不用還了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！至於……"],["羅委員明才：那他會不會為了美國的利益考量，要大陸趕快打、臺灣趕快打，打完後我們買的美國債券是不是又全部一筆勾銷了？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！"],["羅委員明才：有沒有這個可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！"],["羅委員明才：為什麼？誰說不會？基於什麼理由？那為什麼俄羅斯會？"],["楊總裁金龍：這是假設性的問題，我想我們不談這個話題啦！"],["羅委員明才：萬一會的話怎麼辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上我覺得不會啦！"],["羅委員明才：你覺得不會啊！那為什麼俄羅斯會？"],["楊總裁金龍：你不能說俄羅斯會，臺灣就會，那不一定啦！"],["羅委員明才：當然不能類比，可是這個例子就是說他已經會了，那為什麼臺灣就一定不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員也知道，我們握有美國的債券量蠻大的，他會來凍結我們握有的債券，我覺得是不可能啦！"],["羅委員明才：總裁，你認識川普總統嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我認識他，他不認識我啦！"],["羅委員明才：問題就是你認識他，你不知道他在想什麼。"],["楊總裁金龍：我也講過……"],["羅委員明才：然後他要做什麼，他明天也不會跟你講。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["羅委員明才：所以現在我們最重要的就是保持自我的彈性，不要完全百分之百受制於人，是不是？總裁，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["羅委員明才：我們希望可以彈性多一點。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！是啦！彈性啦！彈性這個對，針對不確定性就是要彈性。"],["羅委員明才：所以我們需要的就是多一點彈性，還有多一點自信。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！沒有錯，我非常佩服。"],["羅委員明才：不敢，我比較佩服總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：包括你對黃金還有比特幣。"],["羅委員明才：對，你都沒買啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是就中央銀行來講的話，我們是不會involve這個。"],["羅委員明才：最後一題，這是大家很關心的，台電因為虧損，要撥補它1,000億，我問起來，朝野很多委員都反對，這個錢可能財政部這邊也找不到，可不可以拜託央行，你們比較會賺錢，1,000億就由央行撥補就好了？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們所賺的錢都交給財政部。"],["羅委員明才：是，去年央行提交國庫交了多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：今年是2,000億，去年是1,850億的樣子。"],["羅委員明才：哇！所以央行比較會賺啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：1,800億的樣子，我忘了。"],["羅委員明才：那其他地方不行就拜託央行了。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：謝謝羅明才委員。接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢，顏寬恒委員質詢完畢後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b069d0ac3e9c2b34e6b270dce3daca9a776f857e4235ff5002b572682c7da76a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:07:50 - 11:13:53","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐富癸等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）至（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）至（七）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）、（五）、（六）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第（三）及（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。\n【第三、四案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T11:07:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T11:13:53+08:00","duration":363,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.764093750000001,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.181593750000001,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.03346875,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.31971875,"end":15.707843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.230968750000002,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.395343750000002,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.90471875,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.40034375,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.98034375,"end":103.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.55909375,"end":109.51596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.90846875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.76471875,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.67846875000001,"end":126.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.53846875,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.44909375,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.49471875,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.59346875,"end":161.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.74846875,"end":165.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.37221875,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.58846875,"end":199.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.08846875,"end":199.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.71284375000002,"end":245.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.61284375000002,"end":246.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.40596875000003,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.12284375000002,"end":252.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.71721875000003,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.64096875,"end":260.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.88909375000003,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.50846875,"end":266.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.52534375,"end":266.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.14534375,"end":269.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.26346875,"end":273.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.68034375,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.38471875,"end":289.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.49659375000005,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.55596875000003,"end":330.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.16909375,"end":338.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.49721875,"end":341.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.99034375,"end":346.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.95159375000003,"end":352.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.39784375000005,"end":362.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.80221875,"end":358.27034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.414,"end":10.303,"text":"謝謝主席。我請教我們人事長。請說人事長。"},{"start":14.627,"end":42.522,"text":"委員早委員早今天呢其實主要是我們的行政院組織法還有中央政府的那個組織基準法那這次主要是配合就是未來運動部的一個升格嘛那所以我們要把14個部把它增加為15個部那另外我想請教一下就是呢我們現在的新著名基本法事實上已經通過了"},{"start":43.902,"end":64.39,"text":"在新住民基本法裡面也特別的就是說政府我們中央政府應該去設置有關於統籌新住民事務的三級單位可是我們在這一次的我們的這個不管是行政院組織法或者中央這個行政機關的組織基準法裡面"},{"start":66.491,"end":67.492,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":81.099,"end":102.732,"text":"我謝謝委員給我這個機會說明一下事實上從大宴通過這個新住民要成立三級機關這樣的一個法案之後內政部他已經成立一個新住民的一個籌備處那籌備處的成員主要就是他移民署底下會有一個大概60個人左右的他"},{"start":103.992,"end":104.432,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶"},{"start":129.221,"end":134.286,"text":"我上次的理解我上次的理解是內政部他內部已經開過三次會他已經有針對成立三級機關他已經有開過三次會他要去協調那個業務分工嘛業務分工之後"},{"start":148.217,"end":151.04,"text":"現在基本上還是會在內政部下面來成立吧?目前的政策方向是朝這個方向在規劃。"},{"start":165.435,"end":165.575,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":185.623,"end":193.947,"text":"我跟委員報告大概今天會後我們會詢問給內政部請他針對這個籌備處的一個進行能夠速度加快那同樣的我也會打電話跟內政部拜託加快處理這就拜託了因為吼就是因為我們在新住民基本法事實上已經通過實施那在這樣的一個狀況之下因為我們比如說我們現在看到當然"},{"start":212.316,"end":234.243,"text":"關於運動部的升格還有相關的這個署的成立其實在立法院裡面我看到部分黨派的委員事上都是支持的所以我覺得這個今天的修法應該是沒有什麼問題但是呢就也有人跟我反映可問題是我們那個新住民基本法已經都通過實施了為什麼感覺好像八字還沒有一撇啦"},{"start":237.504,"end":237.544,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":252.811,"end":258.395,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":274.414,"end":277.295,"text":"主席,讓我多一點時間,因為現在川普上來,其實大家最關心的就是他有一個什麼政府效率委員會。"},{"start":297.885,"end":298.046,"text":"三）委員林宜"},{"start":312.622,"end":312.662,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":331.352,"end":331.973,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":361.216,"end":361.277,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":860,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時7分）謝謝主席，我請人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：人事長早。今天其實主要是審查行政院組織法還有中央政府組織基準法，配合未來運動部的升格，所以要把14個部增加為15個部。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，我想請教一下，現在新住民基本法事實上已經通過了，而新住民基本法裡面也特別規定中央政府應該設置有關於統籌新住民事務的三級單位。可是我們在這一次修法中，不管是在行政院組織法或中央行政機關組織基準法裡面，好像都看不到未來會準備針對新住民事務成立三級單位，不管是署或者是局，這部分好像沒有做任何準備，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這個機會說明一下。事實上，在大院通過為新住民事務成立三級機關這樣的法案之後，內政部已經成立一個新住民事務的籌備處。至於籌備處的成員，主要就是移民署底下會有一個大概60人的單位，籌備處成員現在要去跟相關機關協調分工。"],["王委員鴻薇：做統籌？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，針對教育部分、醫療部分、就業部分等相關領域業務到底是要移撥過來還是維持在原來的機關，他們現在……"],["王委員鴻薇：那是因為內政部不要把它放在內政部底下嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：關於這個，就我上次的理解是……"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在為止，行政院沒有針對這件事跨部會開會嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：內政部內部已經開過3次會，就是針對成立三級機關開過3次會，因為要協調業務分工嘛！業務分工之後，到時候人員若要移撥或者要增加多少人，我們人總就會介入幫忙。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以基本上還是會在內政部下面成立三級單位嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，目前的政策方向是朝這個方向規劃。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有時間的規劃？預計什麼時間至少要成立？因為這是非常多新住民朋友關心的。臺灣有這麼多新住民，相關事務卻一直都沒有一個統籌單位，這部分是不是也能請人事總處作一些關心？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，我們大概會在今天會後行文給內政部，請內政部針對籌備處的進行能夠速度加快。同樣的，我也會打電話向內政部拜託加快處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，這就拜託了。新住民基本法事實上已經通過實施，相對於這樣的狀況，比如說對於運動部的升格以及相關署的成立，我在立法院看到不分黨派的委員事實上都是支持的，讓我覺得今天的修法應該沒有什麼問題，但也有人跟我反映，新住民基本法都已經通過實施了，為什麼感覺好像八字還沒有一撇？而且他很擔心這個修法是不是……所以我要跟他講時程，總不可能3個月之後再修，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會啦！事實上已經……"],["王委員鴻薇：也必須修法啊！因為署也是有固定額度的嘛！對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：三級機關是70個。事實上，目前我們是配套思考啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：那是不是也可以趕快，至少針對署的數目也把它提高啊？你要因應嘛！如果都不提高，我們就好奇，怎麼塞進去啊？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，就目前的規劃，是暫時不要動70個，因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：那你要怎麼弄？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是在既有70個裡面檢討，看看哪些可以拆解、回歸他們的司；有一些可能因為階段性任務完成，可以回歸到司或者做組織調整。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起，主席，讓我多一點時間發言。現在川普上來，其實大家最關心的就是他有一個政府效率委員會，恐怕就是要大砍人的機關。我覺得我們現在的政府大概不至於啦！照我聽到人事長這樣講的話，其實也不錯啦！把沒有效率的給撤除、拆解，或者業務可以分撥。","所以這個署、就是辦理新住民事務的署、這個專責機構、三級單位基本上會成立，但是不一定會動70個署那個數量，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們不打算把70個那個天花板打開啦！因為我覺得……"],["王委員鴻薇：不然會變成無日無之這樣增加是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是你一直用加法思考，我覺得對國家的整體組織運作也不是好事。"],["王委員鴻薇：這點我其實同意，但是我還是要積極爭取新住民事務的三級單位要趕快成立，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會後會馬上行文給內政部，請他們加速。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝蘇人事長。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請林倩綺委員。林倩綺、林倩綺委員不在。","請羅明才委員。羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請葉元之委員。葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員。陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","林委員剛剛在現場是嗎？喔！不好意思。","登記發言委員都唱名完畢。剛剛林倩綺委員在現場，我唱名的時候可能沒有聽到您在場。","現在請林委員倩綺發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-13","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","羅智強","莊瑞雄","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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這個標示準嗎?聽說很多報關是亂寫一通那你有沒有就是說試著去改善他這個這樣的一個機制那我們知道就是說他其實這個不管是對我們百工百業的一個照顧"},{"start":736.904,"end":754.298,"text":"還有最主要就是說對消費者消費者也是一個服務聽說他退會是非常困難的所以說提一些相關的書面的報告給本席好不好這個你要重視啊你要重視啊謝謝謝謝我們來會員委員謝謝署長接下來我們請盧明財委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":846,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時50分）謝謝主席，我們請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：早安。針對川普即將在明年1月20號重新回到美國擔任美國的總統，你知道在美國的憲法裡頭總統任期的規定嗎？川普未來是不是可以再競選連任？還是就是做這一屆4年？"],["楊總裁金龍：好像大家都認為他大概這一任做完就結束了，因為他有年齡的限制。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：他們的憲法……"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，這一任的4年……"],["楊總裁金龍：他是不是可以再持續下去，這個我不曉得啦！"],["賴委員惠員：他不能再連任下去了，就是這4年。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，那就是4年。"],["賴委員惠員：這個政治狂人再加上一個馬斯克，你也知道馬斯克即將在美國政府裡頭擔任政府效率部的部長。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，政府效率部。"],["賴委員惠員：這個政府效率部做什麼事你知道嗎？總裁，這個部會會對整個聯邦政府進行全面的財務跟績效的審計，並且將就重大的改革提出建議。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：一個狂人跟一個瘋子，你有沒有想到未來4年我們臺灣即將處在一個什麼樣的位置？面對著美國這麼瘋狂的川普跟馬斯克，總裁，講一講你的想法。"],["楊總裁金龍：我的想法還是一貫的，川普雖然有這樣的一個政見，已經要被出臺了，但很不容易去預測他的手段或策略，所以在川普的任內有高度的不確定性。"],["賴委員惠員：是，有高度的不確定性。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個就是挑戰。"],["賴委員惠員：你自己也講得很清楚，即將要面對新的一個挑戰，這個新的挑戰充滿了不確定性。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：上週我們的台經院發布了最新的景氣展望跟經濟預測。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：其實它推估今年的經濟成長率，上修到4.03%。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：明年會下降到3.15%。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：你剛才講了，你預估GDP是3.08%。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：這些數字對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我才在報告裡面講，因為有三大挑戰……"],["賴委員惠員：對，沒有錯。"],["楊總裁金龍：這三大挑戰一定會衝擊到臺灣的經濟、貿易。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們的對策是，現在應該還是維持我們的預測，但是我們在12月的時候、明年3月的時候、明年6月的時候，我們大概都會做一些調整。"],["賴委員惠員：好，你也一直在做滾動式的調整。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：就是一直面對著川普跟……"],["楊總裁金龍：不確定性。"],["賴委員惠員：有關供需的決定，是不是會受到川普當初在競選總統時經貿相關政見的影響？這在你的報告裡頭也特別提出來。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：貿易政策，他就是降稅嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：財政的政策就是減稅嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：移民政策就是防堵、驅趕嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：還有農業政策，這是央行整理的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：好，你現在講到你持續觀察國際經濟情勢，就是持續追蹤跟關注，可是顯然這個講得非常空洞。"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，空洞是比較能夠接受的，為什麼？我還是再強調，它有不確定性！"],["賴委員惠員：它有不確定性？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！當然我們也可以說它的scenario，但事實上我跟委員報告，我們本身也有scenario的分析，只是我們的scenario分析是各種情況的分析，而各種情況的分析只能夠內參。"],["賴委員惠員：是啦！總裁，我跟你講……"],["楊總裁金龍：不能公開說我們的……"],["賴委員惠員：我們眾多委員其實關心的是你的態度，川普喊出來的關稅問題是我們大家擔心的，他喊到60%，就是他把關稅提高到60%，其實講得很簡單，就是不讓你做生意，他已經不讓你做生意了！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！"],["賴委員惠員：像這樣子這麼瘋狂調整他的美國經濟政策的話，我們大家都擔心，擔心這個震盪是不是對國內的經濟會產生很大的影響。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯！"],["賴委員惠員：這個是我們比較擔心的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：其實之前拜登上臺以後，過去四年中美的貿易戰雖然持續在進行，可是這個是我們可以預估的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：我們可以預估的，臺灣的經濟其實也表現得非常亮眼，我們的出口經濟，還有通膨，以及新臺幣的漲幅都是穩定的，臺股也是好的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：在未來四年，你剛才講了很多、很多，我們其實也都知道。再從國發會的經濟研究期刊特別看到，它有研究中美貿易戰對我們未來經濟影響的分析與評估，包括負面衝擊，它講到大概少賺了新臺幣226億，而我們賣到美國的正面效益是賺了73億，可是這一來一去，我們淨損還是缺了153億。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：可是在這個研究期刊裡頭我們看到我們對東協增加了出口，但它其實是沒有把它算進去的，所以這也是要提醒，未來東協的增加也是我們非常重要的一個參考標的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：美國跟中國一直是我國出口的前兩大市場。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：尤其是美、中、臺三方緊密的產業供應鏈跟三角貿易關係，美中的貿易摩擦勢必會影響到我們。剛才賴士葆委員有特別跟你提到，我們的軍事採購算不算在美中貿易裡頭？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：算在美中貿易裡頭？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，有啦！"],["賴委員惠員：那軟體呢？其實有時候軟體比硬體來得還多，軟體是不是也算呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：軟體應該是屬於服務項目，而服務項目按照我的推論，當然我還是必須再去make sure一下，但我的推論就是，既然硬體商品有列入的話，那服務的商品也應該要放入，因為他在跟我們講我們對他的順差多少……"],["賴委員惠員：所以也是要放入？軟體也是要放進去？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，也應該要放進去的。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，再提醒你，最近的美債殖利率一直在上升，就是它的價值變高了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：那應該是預期美國關稅會造成通膨。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：央行跟金融業有大量的美債，我在這裡請教，這對於臺灣的金融系統一定會造成很大的影響，請總裁將書面報告給我，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：時間先暫停一下，我想邀請關務署。"],["主席：時間暫停，請關務署署長。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁請回，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝總裁。"],["賴委員惠員：署長。"],["彭署長英偉：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，我針對的就是雙11中國電商在臺灣做了一個很大的廣告，也做了一個很大的促銷，事前我有跟你請教了幾個議題，顯然你認為這個問題對國內的影響不大。如果我們用美國的一天800塊美元來看，其實在民主黨裡頭也有議員提到小額豁免權的濫用，他們希望去修正小額包裹的標準。當然你講到了，我們半年有6次，一次是2,000塊，這部分影響臺灣百工百業的差異不大，你是不是這樣的態度呢？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，這種低價免稅貨品是世界關務組織（WCO）的相關規定，世界各國大概都會有這樣的……"],["賴委員惠員：當然，我知道！那是不是有一些比較積極的作法？因為這個實在是影響我們臺灣的產業，不管是哪一個產業的影響都非常大，你知道在中南部有很多傳統的五金店面，甚至衣服的實體店面都倒掉了，為什麼？因為拼不過這個電商。"],["彭署長英偉：了解。"],["賴委員惠員：如果我們還存在一個寬容態度的話，這樣對我們臺灣的產業沒有達到保護的能量。我在這裡請教你，海關一天有多少包裹到臺灣？其中有多少包裹是小件的包裹？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，快遞貨物的話，一天的量大概16萬到17萬。"],["賴委員惠員：對，16萬到17萬。"],["彭署長英偉：是，所謂低價免稅的2,000塊以下大概將近占九成左右。"],["賴委員惠員：九成喔，等於10件中就有1件是我們在講的，不管是蝦皮還是其他電商等等零零散散打散進來的，這個在報關的時候，有沒有提供一個完整的資訊，可以告訴你貨品的標示是什麼？"],["彭署長英偉：當然，我們的通關制度……"],["賴委員惠員：這個準嗎？這個標示準嗎？聽說很多報關是亂寫一通！你有沒有試著去改善這樣一個機制？其實這不只是對我們百工百業的照顧，最主要對消費者也是一個服務，聽說它退費是非常困難的。"],["彭署長英偉：是，委員講的沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，提一些相關的書面報告給本席，好不好？"],["彭署長英偉：好的。"],["賴委員惠員：這個你要重視！謝謝。"],["彭署長英偉：好的，沒問題，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員，謝謝署長。","接下來請羅明才委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156909","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b62407b83ba7a73fc6b270dce3daca9a776f857e4235ff500a5c4e5b55e05ac0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:55:15 - 11:02:08","影片長度":"00:06:53","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐富癸等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）至（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）至（七）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra 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案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":23.382,"end":34.432,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等24人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":49.133,"end":49.674,"text":"五）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":62.02,"end":90.063,"text":"我們何其偉大啊這麼小的地方啊不會這麼多啊其實不會應該要縮減啦組改組改越改越肥啊一直減高啦當然都很好啊越來越更多的部長更多的主委不過大家都搞不清楚老百姓搞不清楚Who is Who啊來我第一個問題想再請教一下這個任市長我們都很關心的啦大家都關心啊"},{"start":91.294,"end":94.255,"text":"明年的五月一號能不能全體放假啦?"},{"start":94.255,"end":120.863,"text":"老生再問一下啦。可以嗎?我委員報告齁,這個議題齁,我們正正的擺,有姚珊相關部會來。開會後,大家還沒有很圓滿的一個共識。你感覺在會議裡面,感覺上大家往一起放假的方向走,有沒有?"},{"start":122.23,"end":138.981,"text":"有沒有這個味道出來?有沒有?因為那不是我主持的我不知道啊你有參加嗎?我沒有參加因為我請我們副理事長主持但是我要委員報告因為這裡面牽涉到一個我看到的一個議題後來會一記錄到我這裡我內心也感受到"},{"start":140.066,"end":149.571,"text":"提到那個偏鄉小孩子的授教權的問題這個坦白講對我內心是會有一點衝擊所以應該要放假嗎?還是這樣?不應該放假還放到他們上課的時間就還待著五月以後不用放假就對了"},{"start":155.185,"end":171.152,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條"},{"start":186.038,"end":213.952,"text":"欸!他們一個事業單位喔!你們人事總署管太多了吧!他們要對員工照顧福利!比如說啦!我們現在台土書!台銀、土銀、輸出論銀行!生育給小孩鼓勵生育不是嗎?你是要給多少錢知道嗎?五千塊!啊你是要飯工股喔!燕灣工股喔!兆豐多少錢你知道嗎?12萬!"},{"start":216.323,"end":221.147,"text":"當我的銀行生第三個月三十六萬?對阿!我都主張生第三個月要一百萬啦!阿這個你沒在管!你沒在管!喔!這個東西他們有賺了錢!他們給員工福利好一點!阿然後人事都說喔!那主要都人事長都說不行!因為什麼單一新婦阿!我國內都聽過!我沒說不行喔!都說不行!都說單一新婦!"},{"start":241.522,"end":242.224,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":248.413,"end":253.615,"text":"我昨天才在財政委員會,他們都說主要是人市長有意見,說這是單立信奉。哦,你很大勒,人家賺了錢,人家要照顧員工都賣三天勒,照顧員工賣三天。啊給員工那個伙食好一點也賣三天,都賣三天。為什麼?你要講一個問題嗎?委員報告一下勒,用職工福利金可以來處理那些,"},{"start":274.182,"end":276.343,"text":"市長,我跟你說啦,從上層董事長、台銀董事長、土銀董事長嚇到他們的工會"},{"start":296.352,"end":296.993,"text":"委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":312.231,"end":331.305,"text":"大家這樣說,所以我今天特別來這裡,特別來這裡提問你這個問題。我公開質詢你,你好好地檢討這個事情。大家都認為一個國營的事業單位,他們要照顧員工是好事。大家必嘛齁。我喜歡公佈,結果是台土書。"},{"start":332.898,"end":333.518,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":348.936,"end":365.009,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案 案 吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文"},{"start":371.377,"end":384.049,"text":"沒有,我跟委員報告,那是應該因為對那個不清楚,應該本身有一個職工福利金裡面條例,第二條那個可以去運用,這件事我會請財政部回來開會,大家講清楚要怎麼去進行。"},{"start":389.974,"end":409.305,"text":"你把開完會以後的結果送一份給我們委員會還有給我好不好就是為什麼現在反攻股的特別是台土書所有的董事長到上從董事長下到員工都在罵你都在罵你說因為你手很長說照顧員工都不可以你解釋一下好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時55分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，請蘇人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：人事長早。你知道臺灣、中華民國幾個部會啊？你不知道喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：30個啊！"],["賴委員士葆：37個啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：部目前有14個。"],["賴委員士葆：部會呢？幾個？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：部會30。"],["賴委員士葆：37啦！還30。目標要29啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你說的37是組改以前啦！現在是30。"],["賴委員士葆：30？目標說要29，現在又一直在增加，你知道美國幾個部會嗎？美國幾個部？這麼大的國家，幾個部？15個啊！fifteen。中國大陸呢？二十幾個而已。我們何其偉大啊！這麼小的地方，部會這麼多，其實部會應該要縮減啦！組改、組改，越改越肥啊！一直增加啦！當然都很好啊！有更多的部長、更多的主委，不過大家都搞不清楚、老百姓搞不清楚，who is 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114年度中央政府總預算\n案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部\n分【第三、四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310001_00001"}}},{"id":"156908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b1ee4981ae11d1a722a0d4a4306ab205f5ae72a34e051796ed0a8f933bb3cebe05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:49:17 - 10:57:04","影片長度":"00:07:47","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:49:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:57:04+08:00","duration":467,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":5.2790937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.684093750000001,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.80221875,"end":7.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.894718750000001,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.290343750000002,"end":14.762843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.762843750000002,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.796593750000003,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.89784375,"end":14.931593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.707843750000002,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.918468750000002,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.09534375,"end":21.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.57596875,"end":25.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.23346875,"end":28.313468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.66346875,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.852843750000005,"end":34.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.62471875,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.62409375,"end":39.704093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.26096875,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.84284375,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.462843750000005,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.470968750000004,"end":47.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.141593750000006,"end":49.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.424093750000004,"end":51.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.27159375,"end":53.845343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.65534375,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.937843750000006,"end":58.705343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.346593750000004,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.78096875000001,"end":64.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.86471875000001,"end":65.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.28221875,"end":67.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.30721875,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.55596875,"end":69.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.19721875,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.17159375,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.88846875,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.31409375,"end":80.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.14909375,"end":81.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.53284375000001,"end":83.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.89971875,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.42221875,"end":91.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.06721875000001,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.99096875000001,"end":94.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.64471875000001,"end":99.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.36534375000001,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.00221875000001,"end":104.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.95534375000001,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.98471875000001,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.42284375000001,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.94971875,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.00846875,"end":117.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.43034375,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.10534375,"end":118.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.23596875000001,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.73346875000001,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.47534375000001,"end":126.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03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tart":191.892,"end":210.692,"text":"你的資金往來投資人員往來等等還是要受兩岸人民關係條例的規範並沒有辦法逃脫這樣所以所以對陸委會來說立場是很清楚的那至於委員你剛才講的就是現在的金門道就是說現在"},{"start":212.115,"end":232.51,"text":"國際大勢到底怎麼發展?」他其實也跟...會給國際社會釋放出不對的訊息,那種說我們民眾黨在執政還跟中國有密切的經貿的往來。全世界都逃出中國,對不對?在中國是很大的一個曝險。"},{"start":235.074,"end":259.945,"text":"所以這個跟中國經貿合作已經不是這個世界經貿的潮流那我們要逆潮流行美國人會怎麼看?國際社會怎麼看?主委我覺得台灣這幾年來的發展就是你怎麼樣跟國際接軌走自己的道路那對岸的而不是跟中國接軌嘛那你知道你如果這個條文轟過離島的經貿會完全是依賴中國"},{"start":266.114,"end":289.55,"text":"這個是可能的發展那其實對岸他並沒有避諱他想要做什麼他沒有避諱他的企圖心比如說他要做這個兩岸發展融合示範區所以我覺得這個示範區會變成一個國安的破口甚至形成國安的危機那個林市長市長從經濟部主管機關你對這個相關經濟活動是你主管"},{"start":293.203,"end":319.535,"text":"條例第十八條及第十一條條文修正草案?因為現在在有一個叫做事辦金門馬祖澎湖跟大陸地區通行實施辦這個已經有相關顧問而且還有一些彈性的措施那其實應該是先從這個東西裡面去跟這些金門馬祖跟澎湖這些而不是朝向修法嘛對不對先去討論說目前這樣的做法有沒有自然難行的有自然難行嗎?"},{"start":321.197,"end":326.188,"text":"現在是沒有法令有制裁難行那他立法動機到底為何啊?意圖到底是什麼?你說說看"},{"start":333.015,"end":358.135,"text":"因為這委員要提法的那個修法的那個就是他修法你要去跟他溝通你了解他的企圖他的想法嗎但是基本上還是要架構在相關的法令的規範下來執行所以你認為這個修法並沒有叫架構在相關的法律條文之下因為他這個法令是有排除一些相關法令的適用所以基本上已經違憲了啦那衛福部有代表嗎衛福部"},{"start":361.728,"end":384.342,"text":"這個如果按照第十三條之一之二允許中國的醫療人員在離島之夜這部分有沒有違反醫療法跟文報告他這個部分裡面那個外國那個外國醫事人是要經過我們的拿到我們執照才可以在台灣職業對啊包括離島嘛對不對"},{"start":385.919,"end":408.445,"text":"條例第十三條、第十二條條文修正草案案。此方說不需要符合我國一事之格。你們同意嗎?違反醫療法了。違反醫療法。再看,如果按照中國國民黨通過的參考版本,你離島連將會從7億增加到69億,基本上從28億到139億,增加了4倍。"},{"start":416.576,"end":435.123,"text":"事備然後呢你按照第18條如果按照這個版本不受政府採購法跟相關兩岸人民關係條例規定欸會不會違反相關包括政府採購法17條兩岸人民關係條例兩岸條例29條剛剛梁副主委說了都已經違反了嘛對不對副主委"},{"start":442.811,"end":446.293,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時49分）主席，你好。我請經濟部連次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["邱委員志偉：還有陸委會梁副主委。"],["主席：請梁副主委。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：剛剛上一位委員講得慷慨激昂，我個人認為是這樣子，國會議員制定法律當然是以國家利益為優先，以臺灣優先，要制定福國利民的法案，對不對？如果法案的制定會讓臺灣的利益受到影響，而且得到利益的還可能是對臺灣安全威脅最大的中華人民共和國，我看立法的過程要非常、非常、非常謹慎。所以國會議員在國會裡面制定的法令，我想全國民眾都在看，一個法案制定下來對國家是長治久安，是福國利民，還是禍國殃民，造成國安的破口、國安的危機，我想大家都可以討論。","我們看離島建設條例第十八條之一，川普重新上臺，美中競爭的態勢非常明顯，貿易、國防、甚至人才各方面的競爭非常地明確，從這個架構來看，我想臺灣跟美國的利益是一致的。臺灣是全球反中聯盟其中一個重要的關鍵，如果按照第十八條之一修正草案通過的話，會不會違反憲法第一百零七條？梁副主委，根據憲法第一百零七條，國際貿易政策跟涉外的財政經濟事項由中央立法，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這是憲法。如果第十八條之一允許中國企業參與離島建設經濟活動，且不受採購法、兩岸人民關係條例的限制，會不會違反憲法第一百零七條？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們陸委會的立場我再重申一次，不管是本島還是離島，只要在中華民國領域範圍之內，和對岸的往來就要受兩岸條例的規範。我所謂的往來是指人員流動、貨物流動、資金流動、專業證照的認定等等。所以剛剛陳玉珍委員有提到金門到底可不可以按照自由貿易港區設置條例來成立一個自由貿易港區，在陸委會的立場，可以或不可以都不是重點，重點是我們現在的自由貿易港區就算設了，其資金往來、投資、人員往來等等還是要受兩岸人民關係條例的規範，並沒有辦法逃脫，所以對陸委會來說，立場是很清楚的。至於委員剛才講的，就是現在國際大勢到底怎麼發展，它其實也跟……"],["邱委員志偉：會給國際社會釋放出不對的訊息，認為我們民進黨在執政，還跟中國有密切的經貿往來，全世界都逃出中國，對不對？在中國是很大的曝險。所以跟中國經貿合作已經不是世界經貿的潮流，如果我們變成逆潮流而行，美國人會怎麼看？國際社會怎麼看？主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得臺灣這幾年來的發展就是怎麼樣跟國際接軌、走自己的道路……"],["邱委員志偉：是啊。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對岸的……"],["邱委員志偉：而不是跟中國接軌嘛。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果這個條文通過，離島經貿會完全依賴中國耶！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：這個是可能的發展，其實對岸並沒有避諱它想要做什麼，它沒有避諱它的企圖心，譬如它要做兩岸發展融合示範區……"],["邱委員志偉：所以我覺得這個示範區會變成一個國安的破口，甚至形成國安的危機。連次長，經濟部作為主管機關，相關經濟活動是你主管的，你覺得第十八條之一通過的話，怎麼辦？"],["連次長錦漳：因為現在有一個「試辦金門馬祖澎湖與大陸地區通航實施辦法」，這個已經有相關個案，而且還有一些彈性的措施，其實應該是先從這個東西裡面去跟金門、馬祖、澎湖這些……"],["邱委員志偉：而不是朝向修法，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：先去討論目前這樣的作法有沒有窒礙難行，再來做後續的討論。"],["邱委員志偉：有窒礙難行嗎？現行作法有窒礙難行嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：現在是沒有反映有窒礙難行。"],["邱委員志偉：那他立法動機到底為何？意圖到底是什麼？你說說看。"],["連次長錦漳：因為這是委員要提修法，就是尊重委員……"],["邱委員志偉：他要修法，你要去跟他溝通，你了解他的企圖、他的想法嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：但是基本上還是要架構在相關法令的規範下來執行。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你認為這個修法並沒有架構在相關的法律條文之下？"],["連次長錦漳：因為他這個修法有排除一些相關法令的適用。"],["邱委員志偉：所以基本上已經違憲了。衛福部有代表嗎？衛福部，如果按照第十三條之一、之二，允許中國的醫療人員在離島執業，這個部分有沒有違反醫療法？"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，這個部分裡面，外國醫事人員要拿到我們的執照才可以在臺灣執業。"],["邱委員志偉：對，也包括離島，對不對？但是第十三條之一、之二說不需要符合我國醫事資格，你們同意嗎？"],["郭專門委員威中：那違反醫療法了。"],["邱委員志偉：違反醫療法。如果按照中國國民黨通過的財劃法版本，離島連江會從7億增加到69億，金門從28億到139億，增加了4倍，然後如果按照第十八條這個版本，不受政府採購法跟兩岸人民關係條例規定的限制，會不會違反包括政府採購法第十七條、兩岸人民關係條例第二十九條？剛剛梁副主委說了，都已經違反了，對不對？副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，因為他現在就是要創造出一個特區的概念，他現在要創造出一個特區的概念。"],["邱委員志偉：我有很多問題，但是作為召委，我還是要守時，要樹立典範，不能說4分鐘可以講到10分鐘。遵守時間是國會議員基本的素質，如果連這個素質都做不到，你如何完成對人民的承諾呢？"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（10時57分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：繼續開會。請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156907","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bbc769566bed7b564f5866fb8dd1f93155ae72a34e051796e91e55a3148b2c4485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:41:22 - 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0.259,"end":592.097,"text":"家長來安心的謝謝委員關心這個學習歷程檔案我想我們當時會在推動其實他真的就是希望學生他在想像未來勇於追夢的過程他怎麼去安排他的許多的學習活動能夠很清楚的然後當然也可以逐步隨著發展去做修正我們教育部"},{"start":593.377,"end":616.123,"text":"現在大概只要寒暑假或是例假日有空只要我們地方需要我們都會以業秉承業補助還有我們商業製造部長我們來看我們根據審計報告來看108課綱從第一屆到第三屆高中畢業生學習歷程檔案沒有提交的比例是越來越增加其中經濟弱勢的學生未提交的比例在學習課程成果"},{"start":617.203,"end":644.469,"text":"課程學習成果以及多元表現都是節節攀升其中最高來到有62.32%的比例沒有提交這個數字是不是就是顯示說即將經濟弱勢的學生他們關於學習歷程檔案製作的資源比較少其實一般經濟比較弱勢的學生他在下課後可能有家務要做可能要打工可能要賺錢家長可能會擔心但是其實我們大學校長都在這裡我們相信大學校長"},{"start":645.069,"end":650.256,"text":"因為他們真的他們透過這一個務談跟學生看這料一個審查他們事實上會看到學生他整個發展的一個部長您覺得學習歷程答案是不是升學需要的準備項目之一我們目前這個申請入學不一定要"},{"start":663.052,"end":672.076,"text":"學習歷程檔、PBD、PDF等所以說是不是我們應該要提供更多的協助讓這些學生來瞭解我想我們加強來宣導我們來製作的這個過程裡面我們不一定要花很多錢我們不一定要去補習因為非常少數的其實我們知道民間有一些商業的行為那當然經濟情況那部長您有瞭解到說為提交比率一直上升的原因嗎?"},{"start":691.892,"end":700.126,"text":"就我們的一個掌握它其實是維持在一個很低微的比例因為我們有問過第一線上的高中的一些教長會提交比例在弱勢學生裡面佔62.32%"},{"start":704.366,"end":725.454,"text":"那這樣子啦部長因為今天時間不多齁這個你們去了解你們去實際了解未提交的比率一直上升的這個原因你們找出原因然後我希望你們可以再多增加人力的經費來協助我們的學生來了解這個學黨的製作這個學黨的這個過程其實是要幫助他們而不是要扼殺他們升學的路是"},{"start":725.854,"end":753.404,"text":"可以嗎?是好那接下來我想請教關於幼兒園這個裁罰數及稽查人力的問題部長幼兒園的這個教學教保的品質一直是我們家長都非常非常關心的但是近三年幼兒園違規裁罰件數是成增加的趨勢那這個部分我們可以把它說成就是說我們稽查很確實但是我們看到稽查人力的部分呢其實我們每位稽查員平均要負擔"},{"start":754.364,"end":777.407,"text":"四十六點四三間的幼兒園我們登記我們有統計出來的我們幼兒園的加數是7057但是我們的集合人力只有152而且非教育相關科系的這個佔比來到了47.3%那每一個警察員他要負擔的這樣子這麼多間的幼兒園他一天走一個一個月走不完"},{"start":778.388,"end":799.258,"text":"他還要分成兩個月來走耶那這個部分我們教育部是不是應該來了解說我們如何來配置增加相關的集合能力還有我們提升他們的專業讓這些集合人員呢他們可以比較落實確實的是集合校園的安全我們提供給孩子一個安全學習的環境讓家長可以放心"},{"start":800.298,"end":828.88,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心確實這個怎麼確保幼兒的一個教育品質這是我們都跟委員一樣的關心我想在這個部分我們中央怎麼跟地方來共同來努力包含這些稽查人力會教育相關這個的人員我們也都有這個真人然後也列入考核所以我想這個部分特別在地方許多的幼兒園確實在地方這個部分我想"},{"start":829.5,"end":850.665,"text":"他必須要有承擔更多的責任但是我們願意跟地方來做一些合作來確保幼兒的這些教育品質因為很明顯你看到這個人力的這個不足的部分其實在數據上可以明顯的看到那所以說我們該怎麼跟地方政府這邊來配合來協助這個部分也請教育部一定要用心謝謝文謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時41分）謝謝主席，請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安。首先我要先跟部長就教一個我覺得非常嚴重的問題，在本席的選區，某學校的校長傳出涉及多起性平事件，被害人這幾天陸續出面指認，教育部現在有掌握這個狀況嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們瞭解這一個事情。"],["陳委員秀寳：我想知道，教育部這邊有沒有去瞭解，彰化縣教育處在之前有沒有收到過關於這位校長的相關申訴？有沒有即時的處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：彰化縣政府現在也已經組成調查小組，詳細的是不是請署長補充？"],["陳委員秀寳：署長您請說。"],["彭署長富源：剛剛委員所提的，現在它組成審查會跟審查小組，剛剛委員提的議題會列入調查小組的議題，它之前有沒有申訴以及做調查，我們也會追究。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個事情被報出來之後，陸續有家長指出這個校長的後臺很硬，之前有人去申訴的話，彰化縣教育處都不予處理。這個事情同時在我們地方也引起很大的恐慌，甚至我的辦公室、我的服務處，連我自己本人都會一直接到有補習班、安親班老師打電話來問，因為他們要適時地安撫學生學習的情緒，所以他們必須要瞭解現在狀況會是怎麼處理，都會一直打來我服務處這邊問。他們表達這些疑慮的同時，家長也都要求，第一個，應該先將校長調離教育現場，而且應該先停職接受調查。這個部分你們掌握到現在彰化縣政府是怎麼處理的？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實彰化縣政府現在已經把這個校長調離本職，也已經做了一個處理，然後進行調查。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以只是調離本職，還沒有停職嘛？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，現在馬上先調離本職，停職與否，在三日內他們會做決定。另外，剛才委員講的，我們絕對會追究到底。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，因為所有這樣的校安通報上來，你們也是要照一定的程序，會有一定的規範來處理。"],["鄭部長英耀：肯定的。"],["陳委員秀寳：家長這邊還強烈地表達，他們覺得這樣有爭議的校長是不適合再回任的，他們已經有這樣的訴求，家長會、委員會也有再去彰化縣政府教育處表達這樣的意願，所以我也希望……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，如果他確實如此，以我們的法令規範，當這個不適任校長被做成決議，他就一定要被撤職。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，因為不能影響學生學習的權益，也不能影響學校整個校務跟學務的運作，所以這個部分我希望教育部要盯緊彰化縣政府教育處到底有沒有認真、嚴謹地處理這個事情。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：後續我會再繼續追蹤。好，接下來，我想請體育署鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員早。"],["陳委員秀寳：署長，昨天世界棒球十二強賽，我們中華隊真的很棒，我們首戰就勝利，讓我們熱愛運動、熱愛棒球的民眾們都非常的振奮，但是在比賽前就有韓媒報導，在大巨蛋練球期間有小孩子在球場上跑。這個部分昨天在司法委員會聯席的時候我就跟署長討論過了，關於我們奧亞運單項協會管理的問題，我們的棒協這次被韓媒這樣批評，我想知道體育署有沒有去瞭解這個狀況是什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，棒協對我們的描述是依照它公開的聲明，目前是這樣子。"],["陳委員秀寳：署長，你有沒有覺得以棒協這樣的態度，他們真的是管理不周，或者說其實它內部根本是非常的鬆散？"],["鄭署長世忠：昨天晚上我已經有明確地請秘書長在這一部分加強管控。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以署長你也這樣子覺得？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席昨天在司法委員會聯席的時候也一直跟您強調，其實民眾都是希望不要再出包，他們都期待我們的各單項協會應該把他們的工作做好，照顧好我們的選手、照顧好我們的球員，我覺得這真的是很基本、很基本的要求。面對一個這麼重要的比賽，他們用這麼輕忽的態度，我覺得不只是韓媒會覺得很傻眼，我們自己在地的民眾、我們自己國人都覺得很失望。面對一個這麼重要的棒球比賽，你們在場地的管理上竟然是用這樣子輕忽的態度，可見我們的單項協會要努力、要進步的空間還非常、非常的大。所以我要求我們的體育署以及將來的運動部，對於單項協會的監督工作一定要做好，署長，你覺得呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個我們會再加強督導。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝署長，你先請回。","我再請教部長，在第10屆第6期會議的時候，我們教文委員會的委員們都有提案，要求教育部要研議在各級學校免費提供生理用品給有需要的學生使用，教育部這邊也從善如流，從112年就開始辦理。但是目前學生團體反映，在大學的部分實際上是發生了一些問題。例如說，學生們覺得領取的程序太繁瑣，領取的地點太少，還有要採登記制，讓學生覺得在隱私部分有顧慮、有疑慮，所以不願意去領取，導致有的學校甚至一個學期只發出40份，這是沒有辦法減輕學生的負擔，也沒有實際的幫助到學生，也辜負了教育部這個政策的美意，甚至許多學生會要自己去找廠商來贊助，來幫助學校的學生。這樣子的狀況比較多發生在私立大學，因為以學生團體的表達來講，他們覺得公立大學可能因為他們的經費是比較充足的，就比較沒有相關的問題，我想請教部長，像這樣的問題，我們教育部是不是可以研議相關的領取措施，就是類似一個指引來供學校參考，並且我們向私立大學瞭解推行上有什麼困難，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想謝謝委員關心學生生理用品的使用跟支持，我想我們所有的大學校長在這邊，誠如委員所提的，大學在這個部分，大部分我們的瞭解都是用來支持，不會去登記然後有很繁瑣的一些程序。倒是委員剛才所提的，私立大學部分，我們來進一步瞭解，我想國立大學的許多經驗怎麼樣，在大學之間能夠互相分享，或者說大學端在提供免費的生理用品有什麼樣的困境，我們來看怎麼樣來協助。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長你的承諾，很多學生團體都指出他們希望訂定指引，教育當初有沒有訂定一個發放的指引？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們是有訂指引的。"],["陳委員秀寳：是不夠清楚，還是不夠符合實際使用的狀況嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：這份指引在當初討論的時候是經過很充分的討論，其實基本上都從一些方向性來給學校。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是很多學校的學生會都表達覺得你們還要提供指引，所以是不是沒有符合實際使用狀況？"],["鄭部長英耀：會後我們來更主動地瞭解問題到底在哪裡。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，那就拜託教育部這邊一定要用心，第一個，你們要訂定清楚的指引；第二個，我們去瞭解一下成效不佳的學校，他們在推行的困難，我們來予以協助好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，接下來我要請教部長，過去本席跟教文的委員都一直很關心學生的學習歷程檔案的問題，雖然教育部一直以來都宣導說高中的學習歷程檔案是沒有辦法透過補習得來，但是其實學習歷程檔案一直是補習班他們的附帶課程。也有一些廣告會說有2,000元的學檔範本，如果是實作的實作本就是由5,000塊起跳，這個問題是不是也反映出如果有比較經濟弱勢的學生，他們所得到的這些學習檔案的資源協助是不是比較少？或者會不會這樣的商品主打的對象其實不是學生，而是家長，因為家長不放心，所以這些不管是2,000的學習範本還是說5,000的實作本，都是賣給家長來安心的，部長你覺得呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心學習歷程檔案，我想我們當時會推動其實真的就是希望學生，他在想像未來、勇於追夢的過程，他怎麼樣去安排他的許多學習活動，能夠很清楚，然後當然也可以逐步隨著發展去做修正，教育部現在大概只要寒暑假或者例假日有空，只要地方需要，我們都會由葉丙成副座還有張廖次長他們去做說明。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是部長，我們根據審計報告來看，108課綱從第一屆到第三屆，高中畢業生學習歷程檔案沒有提交的比例是越來越增加，其中經濟弱勢的學生未提交的比例，在課程學習成果以及多元表現都是節節攀升，其中最高有62.32%的比例沒有提交，這個數字是不是就顯示經濟弱勢的學生，他們關於學習歷程檔案製作的資源比較少？其實，一般經濟比較弱勢的學生，他們在下課後可能有家務要做、可能要打工、可能要賺錢……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，家長可能會擔心，但是其實我們大學校長都在這裡，我們相信大學校長，因為他們透過跟學生晤談、看資料審查，他們事實上會看到學生整個發展的一個……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，您覺得學習歷程檔案是不是升學需要的準備項目之一？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前申請入學不一定要學習歷程檔案，他也可以用PDF或用其他的一些方式來呈現。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我們是不是應該要提供更多的協助讓這些學生來瞭解？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們加強來宣導。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們製作的過程裡面不一定要花很多錢，我們不一定要去補習……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，讓家長、學生知道，因為非常少數的……其實我們知道民間有一些商業的行為，當然經濟情況……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，您有瞭解到未提交比例一直上升的原因嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：就我們的掌握，它其實是維持在一個很低微的比例，因為我們有問過第一線上高中的校長。"],["陳委員秀寳：未提交比例在弱勢學生裡面占62.32%耶！這樣子啦，部長，因為今天時間不多，這個你們去瞭解，你們去實際瞭解未提交的比率一直上升的原因，你們找出原因，然後我希望你們可以再多增加人力跟經費來協助我們的學生瞭解學檔的製作、學檔的過程其實是要幫助他們，而不是要扼殺他們升學的路。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，那接下來我還想請教，關於幼兒園裁罰數及稽查人力的問題。部長，幼兒園的教學、教保品質一直是我們家長都非常非常關心的，但是近3年幼兒園違規裁罰件數是呈增加的趨勢，這個部分我們可以把它說成我們稽查很確實，但是我們看到稽查人力的部分，其實每位稽查員平均要負擔46.43間幼兒園。我們統計出來幼兒園的家數是7,057，但是我們的稽核人力只有152，而且非教育相關科系的占比來到了47.3%，每一個稽查員要負擔這麼多間幼兒園，他一天走一個，一個月走不完，他還要分成兩個月來走。這個部分教育部是不是應該來瞭解如何來配置增加相關的稽核人力，還有提升他們的專業，讓這些稽核人員可以比較落實、確實地去稽核校園的安全，我們提供給孩子一個安全學習的環境，讓家長可以放心。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，確實怎麼確保幼兒的教育品質，我們都跟委員一樣關心。我想在這個部分，中央怎麼跟地方來共同努力，包含稽查人力非教育相關的人員，我們也都有增能，然後也列入考核，所以我想這個部分，特別在地方，許多的幼兒園，確實在地方這一個部分，我想它必須要承擔更多的責任，但是我們願意跟地方做一些合作，確保幼兒的教育品質。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為很明顯你看到人力不足的部分，其實在數據上很明顯地看到，所以說我們該怎麼跟地方政府這邊配合、協助，這個部分也請教育部一定要用心。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員的質詢，部長請回、署長請回。","我們現在先休息15分鐘。","休息（10時55分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：我們現在繼續開會，請大家先就座。","接下來請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基\n金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基\n金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金；三、審查114年度行政法人國\n家運動訓練中心預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00006"}}},{"id":"156906","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156906","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3be2d4b724c823dc886b270dce3daca9a75ae72a34e051796ea5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:49:10 - 10:55:02","影片長度":"00:05:52","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐富癸等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）至（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）至（七）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）、（五）、（六）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第（三）及（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。\n【第三、四案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:49:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:55:02+08:00","duration":352,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.59096875,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.134718750000001,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.708468750000002,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.488468750000003,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.22659375,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.17971875,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.25971875,"end":21.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.49159375,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.49159375,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.02721875,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.74846875,"end":26.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.840968750000002,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.228468750000005,"end":33.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.86534375,"end":34.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.979093750000004,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.45159375,"end":36.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.712843750000005,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.10909375,"end":41.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.729093750000004,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.34909375,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.867843750000006,"end":49.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.36534375,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.19221875,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.250968750000006,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.75659375,"end":56.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.56221875000001,"end":56.579093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.73909375,"end":61.641593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.01284375,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.01221875,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.35346875,"end":74.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.53409375000001,"end":78.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.58409375000001,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.04784375,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.68471875,"end":86.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.58284375000001,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.68784375,"end":92.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.69159375000001,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.02846875,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.81721875000001,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.72846875,"end":103.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.65596875,"end":106.59659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.57534375,"end":108.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.58346875000001,"end":111.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.04721875000001,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.61659375,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.05096875000001,"end":115.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.28284375000001,"end":116.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.37971875000001,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.05034375000001,"end":120.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.51409375,"end":122.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.96534375,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.13409375,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":124.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.44596875,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.50909375,"end":127.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.48784375000001,"end":128.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.22596875000002,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.62659375,"end":132.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.44471875000002,"end":139.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.19471875000002,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.50659375,"end":144.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.50159375,"end":153.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.22659375,"end":152.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.44596875000002,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都有評估過好 這個當然你無法決定了齁 這個部分好 我們看齁 這個新住民基本法剛講的新住民基本法8月12號公布了齁 還沒有施行這裡面特別提到要成立這個三級機關 也就是級或者屬"},{"start":161.516,"end":186.662,"text":"那現在就涉及到這個署啊、局啊、三級機關。七十個違憲。到底你要改為七十一還是要維持七十個?現在有一個方向了嗎?就是七十個不變動。所以那十四個可以變成十五個不。這邊就會產生這些疑問了。好。"},{"start":194.005,"end":215.059,"text":"這個今天個人資料保護法今天在經濟委員會也在談這個這裡面也提到要成立委員會成立委員會個人資料保護委員會按照那個籌備處的報告是說根據憲法法庭憲判是13號"},{"start":217.208,"end":240.265,"text":"所以要成立這個各支委員會事實上這個香港法庭他就提國家亦有亦有以法律積極建制適當之組織也沒有說一定要這個二級機關也沒有說一定要二級機關但是你們現在就是弄成二級機關"},{"start":242.37,"end":243.31,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":263.117,"end":274.48,"text":"大概定義上就是三級的概念。所以沒有在中央行政機關組織基準法裡面所明定的幾個限制,沒有限制。好,那了解。現在就談這個時間的關係。立法院在103年,"},{"start":283.869,"end":285.63,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":305.373,"end":323.832,"text":"立法院復代結議103年本來是147人,104年馬上改為195人。但是經過10年之後,我們看這個預算。人民會的預算基金加上公務預算,總共原來是77億多,77億8千多萬。"},{"start":328.837,"end":329.418,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":772,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時49分）主席、各位委員，有請人事長。"],["主席：有請蘇人事長。"],["鄭天財Sra 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譬如說關稅的影響 那個部分可能是最大的所以總裁你剛才一直擔心就是說本來大家預期呢 本來大家應該是放歌吧就是應該會逐步的降息 因為他的通貨膨脹已經得到一定的控制"},{"start":132.885,"end":141.715,"text":"但是因為川普上來之後川普保護主義再起尤其他要全面性的提高關稅會衝擊到美國的通貨膨脹就是這個數字恐怕就沒有辦法像現在維持的這麼好所以也"},{"start":149.864,"end":160.194,"text":"也進而影響到Fed他可能原來他的一個假期的tempo會被完全打亂我這樣講對不對是是是委員講得非常好所以總裁擔心的就是這一點是是是就是50%的這個部分那個uncertainty還是存在的"},{"start":169.544,"end":192.27,"text":"所以其實全世界的中央銀行維持這個通貨膨脹不能夠超出這個控制都是天職那所以Fed它有它的不穩定性所以在這邊我也想請教總裁那麼如果就台灣回到台灣層面來講你最concern的是什麼你最擔心影響台灣的這個經貿的點是什麼"},{"start":197.411,"end":223.664,"text":"我想這個就是說因為第一個就是說我們對美國的順差是一直持續在上漲而且速度快我看到最新數字已經超過800億美元你剛剛你這個數字是一到九月份可是最新的今年我看搞不好到一千億了沒有不會啦不會啊今年大概多好今年我們貿易順暢我們就是只有五百多億五百多億對啦五百多億"},{"start":225.285,"end":239.02,"text":"其實今年台灣對美貿易順差我們這邊有那個美國商務部我們這邊有一個美國商務部他給我們的一個數據這個我們做了一個projection"},{"start":240.942,"end":256.138,"text":"我看到了對對對那在這裡呢我們有做一個projection2024年是633因為他不是商品他的一個匯率報告裡面的一個標準呢不是只有商品還有包括拉霧商品"},{"start":256.678,"end":257.439,"text":"中央銀行預估500億美元"},{"start":274.301,"end":291.918,"text":"台灣未來的通貨膨脹可不可以像現在把它維持得比較好因為我們現在的通貨膨脹率CPI已經把它降到2%以下了嘛 對不對那麼在川普上來之後那麼我們的通貨膨脹率有沒有可能"},{"start":294.81,"end":306.738,"text":"又比較難控制因為最近最近台幣爆量貶值嘛是今天已經三我不曉得今天是多少32點幾差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多差不多"},{"start":310.28,"end":335.03,"text":"那所以臺幣貶值還有全球包含因為最重要是Fed如果他也沒有繼續的降息然後事實上美國的通貨膨脹再起所以對台灣的通貨膨脹影響是什麼?總裁我跟委員報告事實上我們台灣的通膨不是說美國的通膨我們一定是通膨不見得"},{"start":336.41,"end":351.903,"text":"臺灣的通膨主要是是那個裸物包括汽油啦、農產品啦這些的就是供給面的這些那你看看我就說所以呢川普一上來的有因為川普有一個政策呢對於這個"},{"start":353.984,"end":356.986,"text":"結能減碳的一個的產業呢他比較不care他還是比較promote傳統的那個能源的政策對啊能源的政策呢美國你看他就生產那個石油啊還有那個天然氣"},{"start":370.155,"end":372.977,"text":"所以川普一上台就說希望國外多買美國內運所以私有的價格你看看期貨掉到40塊這對我們是比較好可是總裁我要問你"},{"start":389.208,"end":408.735,"text":"美國要增加對美國的採購當然軍需品這一塊已經是無庸置疑的現在傳出一種說法因為我們的能源就是像我們天然氣主要的進口的地方是來自印尼亞洲地區因為比較便宜因為它中資要從用船運過來但是我們現在有一個壓力美國也希望台灣多買美國的"},{"start":415.037,"end":415.177,"text":"事實上齁"},{"start":435.451,"end":451.258,"text":"我們就是說那個成本也不是說距離的長它的成本就高了要看它的efficiency它生產的那個efficiency那以美國來講的話它在這一方面它是非常的有效率的"},{"start":451.958,"end":455.743,"text":"所以就是說即使是美國的距離比我們長跟印尼來擺比較但是呢它的貨運它的貨運的如果說它的貨運呢這個比較比較傳奇比較密集成本比較低的話那也不見得啊"},{"start":469.981,"end":473.522,"text":"所以總裁所以你也可以同意我們能源的採購可以從亞洲地區移轉到從美國採購我現在我的意思說不是說也可以移轉那當然這個是經濟部要做的啦因為要大量採購買那小咪咪東西沒有用啦是的我的意思就是說當然就是說經濟部或是台電或中油他必須要評估他的成本效益"},{"start":496.387,"end":496.487,"text":"時間暫停,請財政部長"},{"start":524.169,"end":526.391,"text":"這怎麼回事就要請教您了剛才總裁說最多是3.08明年但是我們的稅入我們稅入明年變得很多成長率高達19.28%如果明年經濟成長率其實主計數也大概差不多3.2左右"},{"start":547.245,"end":556.374,"text":"將行預估3.08就是3%多一點點但是我們可以增加到19.28這樣的一個歲入會不會有點變成不可能的任務"},{"start":563.152,"end":579.013,"text":"跟委員報告我們在編稅入預算的時候稅客收入預算的時候其實我們參考的項目很多當然經濟成長率是一個因素還有包含其他民間的消費以及稅制的調整都是包含在內的"},{"start":580.683,"end":584.709,"text":"可是那個時候也沒有這麼高的預期我要講的是因為明年度的我們的稅出膨脹非常高那當然你同樣的也把稅入調得很高這個稅入的基礎啊"},{"start":596.306,"end":616.294,"text":"其實真的我們一般稅入基礎要考慮到未來的經濟成長率其實在明年包含剛才總裁特別提到他都非常擔心明年其實很多事情都不確定那我們現在的出口很好我們現在出口都還是紅字但是能不能繼續紅字其實有很多專家學者已經開始在擔心了"},{"start":616.974,"end":620.115,"text":"所以當然對我們來講我歲入我沒有辦法砍你嘛但是我是提醒你我們現在編高達19.28%年增率的一個歲入事實上是非常有高風險的"},{"start":632.239,"end":659.975,"text":"你就說你為了要讓稅出得以支撐所以我稅入也編那麼多沒有,我們在編稅入的時候完全就我們的稅我們就在稅客收入的部分就稅的專業的部分是來做估算我們並沒有去估他的稅出會是多少來回頭考慮我們的稅客收入因為這兩年啦而且有些稅他是會有遞延效果的比如說營所稅、中所稅他是看今年的情形會在明年來反映的"},{"start":660.675,"end":682.29,"text":"對阿但是今年也不過4點多而已好我要講就是說其實你歲入我們在審查的時候我是不會砍你歲入嘛你要變那麼高就變那麼高但是呢我提醒你要達到19.8將近20%的成長率其實是非常困難的啦好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝王紅委員謝謝我們部長接下來我們請我們賴惠委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":757,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時38分）謝謝主席，我請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁早安。總裁，你今天的報告，就是川普當選之後，對於全球的經濟，特別是對臺灣的經濟，乃至於我們的貨幣政策、外匯政策，還有貿易的報告，得到高度的重視。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛才也有很多委員跟您請教。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：不過像Fed主席鮑爾，其實川普不喜歡他，但是我覺得鮑爾很有guts，他說如果川普不喜歡他，想要把他fire掉的話，他說他會拒絕，因為於法不合。大家都很怕川普，現在都很關注他的新人事，也關注Fed的主席會不會換人。我個人是非常欣賞鮑爾這樣的態度，什麼事情都應該於法而有據。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛才總裁非常擔心的是川普上來之後，會對美國的貨幣政策造成很多的不穩定，但是如果鮑爾可以維持整個聯邦準備理事會（Fed）的獨立超然性，這樣的一個不穩定因素可不可能某一種程度可以被排除？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想它的不穩定，第一個，委員講得很好，Fed的獨立性是非常重要的，所以它的不確定性，我剛剛所講的不確定性，如果Fed能夠維持它的獨立性，它的不確定性可以減少一半，但是它的另外一半……"],["王委員鴻薇：不操之在它？譬如關稅的影響，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，另外一半不是它……"],["王委員鴻薇：那個部分可能是最大的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以總裁剛才一直擔心，本來大家預期Fed應該是放鴿，應該會逐步的降息，因為它的通貨膨脹已經得到一定的控制。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是因為川普上來之後，川普保護主義再起，尤其他要全面性的提高關稅，會衝擊到美國的通貨膨脹，這個數字恐怕就沒有辦法像現在維持得這麼好，所以也進而影響到Fed可能原來降息的tempo會被完全打亂。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：我這樣講對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員都講得非常好。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以總裁擔心的就是這一點。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，就是50%的這個部分uncertainty還是存在的。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，其實全世界的中央銀行維持通貨膨脹不能夠超出控制都是天職，Fed有它的不穩定性，所以在這邊，我也想請教總裁，如果就臺灣、回到臺灣的層面來講，你最concern的是什麼，你最擔心影響臺灣經貿的點是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想因為第一個，我們對美國的順差一直持續在上漲，而且速度快……"],["王委員鴻薇：我看到最新的數字已經超過800億美元了，你這個數字是1到9月份，可是最新的，今年我看搞不好到1,000億了。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不會啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：不會啊？今年我們貿易順差大概多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：好像我們就是只有五百多億啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：五百多億？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！五百多億。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實今年臺灣對美貿易順差……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們這邊有一個美國商務部給我們的數據，這個我們做了一個projection。"],["王委員鴻薇：有，我有看到。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，在這裡，我們有做一個projection，2024年是633，因為它不是商品，它匯率報告裡面的標準，不是只有商品，還有包括勞務商品，還有服務，所以這是再加上服務的……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們中央銀行預估是500億美元？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，如果商品的話是五百多啦，我記得好像是五百多。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我先回來講我concern的部分。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我也要問總裁，臺灣未來的通貨膨脹可不可以像現在把它維持得比較好，因為我們現在的通貨膨脹率CPI，已經把它降到2%以下了，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那麼在川普上來之後，我們的通貨膨脹率有沒有可能又比較難控制？因為最近臺幣爆量貶值，我不曉得今天是多少……"],["楊總裁金龍：三十二點幾。"],["王委員鴻薇：差不多都三十二塊五嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：32.4。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，32.4。所以臺幣貶值，還有全球的因素，最重要的是Fed如果也沒有繼續降息，事實上美國的通貨膨脹再起，對臺灣的通貨膨脹影響是什麼，總裁？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上我們臺灣的通膨，不是美國通膨，我們就一定是通膨，不見得！臺灣的通膨主要是raw material，包括汽油、農產品這些，就是供給面的這些，川普一上來了以後，因為川普有一個政策，對於節能減碳的產業，他比較不care，他還是比較promote原來傳統的能源政策。"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：美國原來的能源政策就是生產石油，還有那個……"],["王委員鴻薇：天然氣。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以川普一上台以後，他就……"],["王委員鴻薇：希望國外多買美國能源……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以你看最近的石油期貨的價格掉到40塊。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣對我們比較好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對呀！"],["王委員鴻薇：可是總裁，我要問你，因為你說要增加對美國的採購。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然軍需品這一塊已經是無庸置疑了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在傳出一種說法，因為我們的能源，像我們是天然氣，主要進口的地方是來自亞洲地區的印尼。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為比較便宜，畢竟總是要用船運過來。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我們現在有一個壓力，美國也希望臺灣多買美國的能源、天然氣，這樣會不會也造成成本與價格的上漲？總裁也建議，我們要多多跟美國採購，在這樣的狀況之下，有沒有可能推升包含能源的價格成本？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，那個成本並不會因為距離長，其成本就高啦！要看它生產的efficiency。以美國來講的話，它在這方面是非常有效率的，所以即使是我們到美國的距離比到印尼的長，但是其貨運的船期比較密集、成本比較低的話，那也不見得啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以總裁也同意我們能源的採購可以從亞洲地區移轉到美國去採購？"],["楊總裁金龍：我現在的意思並不是可以移轉啦，當然，這是經濟部要做的……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為要大量採購，買一咪咪的小東西是沒有用的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是的，我的意思是說，經濟部或台電或者是中油，它必須評估其成本效益。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我的時間快到了。總裁，你能不能預估明年GDP的成長是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們預估是3.08%。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。對不起，時間暫停一下，我請財政部長。"],["主席：時間暫停，我們請財政部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝總裁，可以先回座。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我接下來要請教您，剛才總裁說明年最多是3.08%，但是我們的歲入明年編得很多，成長率高達19.28%，如果明年經濟成長率……其實主計總處大概也是估在3.2%左右。央行預估是3.08%，也就是3%多一點點，但是我們的歲入可以增加到19.28%，這樣的歲入會不會有點變成不可能的任務？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們在編歲入（稅課收入）預算的時候，其實我們參考的項目很多，當然經濟成長率是一個因素，還包含了其他民間的消費，以及稅制的調整，這些都是包含在內的。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是那個時候也沒有這麼高的預期。我要講的是，因為明年度我們的歲出膨脹得非常高，當然，你同樣地也把歲入調得很高……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我們……"],["王委員鴻薇：其實我們一般歲入的基礎主要是考慮到未來的經濟成長率。包含剛才總裁特別提到，他都非常擔心明年其實很多事情都不確定。我們現在的出口很好，都還是紅字，但是能不能繼續紅字，其實很多專家學者已經開始在擔心了，所以對我們來講，歲入我們沒辦法砍你嘛，但是我要提醒你，我們現在編列年增率高達19.28%的歲入，事實上是非常有高風險的。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：也就是說，你為了讓歲出得以支撐，所以歲入也要編那麼多。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，我們在編歲入的時候，完全是就稅課收入的部分、就稅收專業的部分來估算的，我們並沒有去估歲出有多少再回頭考慮我們的稅課收入，以上跟委員報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為這兩年……"],["莊部長翠雲：有些稅是會有遞延效果的，比如說營所稅、綜所稅，它是今年的情形會在明年才反映。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，但是今年也不過百分之四點多而已。我要講的就是，其實我們在審查你歲入的時候，我是不會砍的，你要編那麼高就編那麼高，但是我提醒你，要達到19.8%、將近20%的成長率，其實是非常困難的，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：謝謝王鴻薇委員，也謝謝部長。","接下來請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156903","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156903","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3be4d629f30d80fc1ffd7b6b5cb373b4dd5ae72a34e051796ebb479112f1783c0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:37:40 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"start":400.894,"end":402.135,"text":"那個太少了啦!"},{"start":402.135,"end":403.675,"text":"這怎麼玩啊!"},{"start":403.675,"end":418.361,"text":"那我們屏東這個PM2.5PM全部都飄到屏東來。整個剛剛盧倩玉在講的齁,整個泰晤啦、萊姬啦,那幾個省都每一年有三分之二的時間都只報。"},{"start":419.541,"end":420.662,"text":"三、審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案2案"},{"start":439.818,"end":462.089,"text":"還有大林也是。他們現在一直說要改善,中頂說他們要用最新的那個燒煤的是真的有效嗎?如果說他是用那個超超臨界的話是有效啦。換成天然氣會更好啦。換成天然氣更好。不過天然氣排放又多。他少很多,比燃煤大概只燃煤的大概剩下一半左右啦。"},{"start":463.669,"end":490.738,"text":"空污災,多一點給屏東,好不好?這個我們會鼓勵,我努力一下。因為中山山脈的尾端就在那邊,一兩千公尺的山都擋住。我每天看那個中山山脈三角線那邊,灰茫茫的一片,以為是山藍之氣,結果那就是空氣污染。等到下雨啊、颱風啊、稍稍的,火落落的,待會就火天氣天氣。這個都很糟糕的事情耶。"},{"start":492.011,"end":498.72,"text":"好,那最後一個我再問你那個廁所的問題,廁所這個這一次感覺非常好,我們署長非常努力。"},{"start":501.972,"end":521.654,"text":"我去赫爾新基在那個機場看到那個廁所是一間一間的都是進去有馬桶就是小便斗然後有坐著馬桶那馬桶還是那個可以沖水的免治馬桶那進去沒有婚男女"},{"start":522.856,"end":527.6,"text":"二、尊重你是男的、女的、中性的、人道的事情。你是不是要站起來、要借言、人道的事情。"},{"start":539.391,"end":554.02,"text":"這很文明啊,很現代化啊,我們他也不在推這個,還在停留在說男的廁所一個小便斗,女的這邊要三間,三個小便斗這邊要15間,13間私人,當然女性的廁所多一點,這個是我們已經通過的。"},{"start":559.929,"end":569.021,"text":"那如果像我剛剛這樣像赫爾辛基那北歐那邊我想應該我們要往前跳出去就是尊重這個啊"},{"start":569.997,"end":590.018,"text":"你的看法怎麼樣?報告委員 這個就是性別友善廁所啦這個也是我們努力的方向目前比例的確還有一點低但是我們新的都鼓勵要做這些事情就做這樣就沒有困難你的時候進去就是不過這個也要跟委員報告這個還是會遭遇到一些團體的阻力啦但是我覺得這個是國際的趨勢還是要往那方面走"},{"start":591.792,"end":618.254,"text":"因為真的我們現在都尊重兩性平等、三性平等都無所謂啦。但是你自己認為我今天要用坐著,我就坐著。今天我要站著,就站著。視態力啊。我覺得很好,我做醫生的角度,我覺得這個真的是非常文明,而且是非常有衛生的。所以這個,那廁所的比例,補助公共廁所啦,補助的我們的執行效力好像不好捏,署長。"},{"start":620.815,"end":639.103,"text":"我們在未來到118年我們還會再有46億8750萬要興建2500座新建或修建的廁所那這個我們在努力那之前前一段已經有新建補助4290座廁所這是大於我們的KPI"},{"start":643.045,"end":643.505,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":643.505,"end":643.645,"text":"以上"},{"start":659.471,"end":674.925,"text":"那廁所做好像我們這次去看去屏東看這個東港啊這個都很棒但是呢廁所的維護是大問題我以前我有幫那個墾丁大街升起了一座那個時候就花500多萬"},{"start":676.55,"end":693.445,"text":"那當然墾丁大街他們管理委員會接到的那些他們就請歐巴桑在那裡整理,整理最重要啦,不然你自己做做的,不然人家整理就很難過的啊。所以你推廣這個廁所文明這個是非常重要,但是你要交給當地的團體啦。"},{"start":695.266,"end":721.704,"text":"請他們維護,因為那個才是長長久久啊。所以你不是只有拿去去的,就送給他後面後續看要怎麼弄,我就覺得這個緩和是重要。部長,你覺得怎麼樣?其實第一個是說要養成尊重這個清潔人員的文化啦。例如說上完之後要輕輕去,謝謝你啦。另外一個是要把這個工作把他這種尊榮感把他拉高一點點。"},{"start":725.026,"end":725.586,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員我們現在休息10分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1378,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時37分）請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長好。預算案已經開始審查了，所以大家提出來的問題五花八門，我今天就先就小琉球的問題請問部長，因為上次我們有去小琉球。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：小琉球有兩個港，一個是白沙港，以客運為主；另一個是大福港，商業用的沙石等貨運船，都是從大福港上來比較多。好，我們看大福港，大福港西側現在有一些工程在施作，應該不是環境部的吧？"],["彭部長啓明：不是。"],["蘇委員清泉：不是，看起來應該是大鵬灣國家公園管理處，現在是要填土，弄個比較好行走的斜坡，請問，一般這個土方是臺灣過去的，還是在地的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要查一下，要看源頭在什麼地方。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為這個土方裡面有寶特瓶、垃圾、袋子、玻璃等，什麼都有，那些土被推到消波塊這邊，弄得整個消波塊很髒，這個環境部有沒有辦法出手？"],["彭部長啓明：我們請署長說明。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，這個港的興建權責機關不在環境部，不過如果有像委員講的裡面夾雜一些垃圾，我們會去看一下，如果確實是垃圾堆在這個地方，其實也牽涉到廢棄物清理法第四十六條第三款，那是有刑責的。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，你們派人去看一下！"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們會派人去看一下。"],["蘇委員清泉：另外，我們再看一下這個影片。","（播放影片）"],["蘇委員清泉：上次我跟部長去的時候也有看到，現在的綠蠵龜差不多將近有1,000隻，在全世界可能是數一數二，綠蠵龜能夠在那邊存活，第一要有東西吃，第二就是環境很友善，所以綠蠵龜來了就不想走，部長，這你上次有看到嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：有啊！很漂亮。"],["蘇委員清泉：每隻都很大，有的近幾百公斤，綠蠵龜到底能活多久我也不知道，有人說可以活到200年，到底是真的嗎？我沒辦法活200年，所以沒辦法考究。現在看到的這個是防波堤，不知道以前是哪個天才把它蓋成防波堤，那裡本來是一片沙灘，現在蓋成這樣，上次交通部也有去考察，我問是不是可以把防波堤拆掉，因為完全沒有功能，拆掉以後，鋪上沙子，因為這一片本來是綠蠵龜可以產卵的地方，這個部長有辦法處理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我很想處理，但這很像是農業部的權責。"],["蘇委員清泉：你不要推啦！看要怎樣處理，把它弄一弄，有辦法嗎？把它敲掉，然後鋪上沙子，不然生態會出問題，這個很重要。"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們來跟農業部反映。"],["蘇委員清泉：當初會搞這個東西，實在是很好玩，上次交通部次長也覺得匪夷所思，所以那一片要處理。","再來，有關空污部分，因為時間有限，我講快一點。屏東縣的工廠是高雄的六分之一，高雄那邊有六千六百多間，包括林園石化工業園區、興達火力發電廠、大林火力發電廠等等，空污差不多都是從那邊來的，像PM2.5、PM10、臭氧、懸浮微粒等，屏東都比高雄還要高，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們屏東人是用愛在呼吸，都沒什麼補償，也沒什麼回饋，我們的空污費又遠低於高雄，差不多只有十分之一而已……"],["彭部長啓明：差不多。"],["蘇委員清泉：差不多嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：我請司長來回答相關數字。"],["蘇委員清泉：司長，你們都沒有作為耶！"],["張司長順欽：不是，跟委員報告，我們有很積極的作為，因為空污費部分，在固定源部分，有60%是地方自己收，也就是如果工廠比較多，就會收的比較多；第二個是移動源，這是依據加油站的發油量付20%；第三個是營建工地，百分之百是地方自己收，這樣算下來，屏東去年大概收了二億一千多萬的空污費，這是他們自己收的。另外……"],["蘇委員清泉：高雄市是不是收三十億？"],["張司長順欽：沒有啦！他們是七億多，不到八億，差不多是4倍，因為他們的工廠多。"],["蘇委員清泉：那中央的空污怎麼補助……"],["張司長順欽：這就是下一個重點。我們每年的補助是透過中央收的那些微薄的錢來調配，如果空污費比較少的，像屏東，我們的補助款歷年來都是第一名，明年也是第一名，有三千多萬補助款是透過空污基金來補助的，所以對我們來講，只要他提得出來，我們……"],["蘇委員清泉：你們微薄的空污費，到底有多少？"],["張司長順欽：我們前幾年才破產啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，環境部的預算太少啦！77億多，實在有夠「漏氣」！"],["彭部長啓明：好啦！我也沒面子啦！所以委員我努力，我都有跟我的同事勉勵，要破百億！"],["蘇委員清泉：當然啦！太少了，這要怎麼玩？高雄PM2.5全部飄到屏東來，就像剛剛盧縣一委員講的，整個太武、來義一年有三分之二的時間都是紫爆，潮州、內埔也很糟糕，有辦法改善嗎？你們每天在這裡講這些，講一講……"],["彭部長啓明：有啦！高雄有改善，而高雄改善，屏東也會一起改善，這個會啦！我們會來處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：源頭要嚴格啊！"],["彭部長啓明：源頭有啦！他們有注意啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：興達火力發電廠是最大污染源，還有大林，他們一直說要改善，中鼎說要用最新的燒煤方法，真的有效嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果他是用超超臨界的話，是有效的，不過換成天然氣會更好。"],["蘇委員清泉：換成天然氣會更好？天然氣二氧化碳排放比較多啊！"],["彭部長啓明：其實它少很多，大概只有燃煤的一半左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：空污費多一點給屏東，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會努力，我們會努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：多擠一些，我們是農業縣，結果因為中央山脈尾端就在那邊，都是一、二千公尺的山，都擋住了，我每天看中央山脈山腳下都是灰茫茫一片，以為是山嵐之氣，結果都是空氣污染，要等到下雨、颱風掃一掃，才有辦法讓空氣乾乾淨淨，這是很糟糕的事情。","好，最後一個我要問的是有關廁所的問題。這次感覺非常好，署長非常努力，我去赫爾辛基時，看到機場的廁所都是一間一間的，進去都有小便斗，也有坐式馬桶，馬桶還是可以沖水的免治馬桶，沒有分男女，廁所就是廁所，都是一間一間，男女都可以使用，所以也沒有什麼一比幾的問題。第二個，尊重你是男的、女的、中性的，都是你家的事情，進去後要站、要坐，也是你家的事情，這很文明、很現代化，我們為什麼不推這個？現在還停留在男廁一個小便斗，女廁這邊就要3間，如果3個小便斗，另一邊就要十多間，嚇死人啊！當然，女性廁所多一點是我們通過的，但可以採用我剛剛講的赫爾辛基、北歐的例子，我想我們應該往前跳出去，就是尊重這個啊！你的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這就是性別友善廁所，也是我們努力的方向，目前比例的確還有點低，但新的部分我們都鼓勵要這麼做。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是這樣，沒有分男女廁所……"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們希望新的是這樣，不過也要跟委員報告，這個還是會遭遇到一些團體的阻力，但我覺得這是國際趨勢，還是要往那方面走。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我們現在真的都尊重兩性平等、三性平等，這都無所謂，你自己認為今天要用坐的就坐著，要站的就站著，隨便你啊！我從醫生的角度來看，覺得這個真的是非常文明，而且非常衛生，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：有關廁所比例、補助公共廁所部分，署長，我們的執行效率好像不好，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：請署長說明。"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，未來到118年，我們還會有46億8,750萬興建2,500座新建或修建廁所，這個我們在努力，之前已經興建補助4,290座，大於我們的KPI，我們原先訂定的目標是4,000，這個我們會再努力。委員剛才講的那個性別友善廁所，除了這些人以外，可能也有一些人工造口的人要使用廁所，這些我們都會一併考慮進去，以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，廁所要做好，像我們這次去屏東東港，就都很棒，但是廁所的維護也是大問題，以前我幫墾丁大街申請了一座，那個時候好像花了五百多萬，墾丁大街管理委員會接到後，就請了歐巴桑幫忙整理，其實整理最重要，不然做好了，沒人整理，馬上又很髒，所以推廣廁所文明非常重要，廁所做好要交給當地團體，請他們維護，這樣才能長長久久，不是只幫他們蓋一蓋送給他而已，後續要怎麼維護反而比較重要，部長，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是要養成尊重清潔人員的文化，例如上完廁所之後說聲很乾淨，謝謝清潔人員。另外要把這個工作的尊榮感拉高一點，等於這件事情一定要去鼓勵，不要讓大家覺得這是最基本、最低賤的事情，而是有榮譽感，就像日本的職人文化一樣，這是我們要努力的目標。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，預算搞多一點，人家都是2、3,000億，1、2,000億，你這77億笑死人了！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我會加油。"],["蘇委員清泉：加油啦！謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（11時）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}},{"id":"156902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156902","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bb82bb058d0a8d949fd7b6b5cb373b4dd5ae72a34e051796e3b3d0bf90661b4be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:29:07 - 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bicyclist 沈俊鑫"},{"start":111.457,"end":114.179,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部長列席報告案2案"},{"start":142.928,"end":145.949,"text":"公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算"},{"start":169.119,"end":186.289,"text":"他們是我們排灣組的發祥第一個部落在那裡結果如果我要去那邊我都要考慮說我等一下去那邊是不是又要跟蒼蠅在一起又要跟那些異位在一起請問對他們來講是非常的可憐所以請你能夠針對這個普峰公司能夠做一個研究可以嗎"},{"start":186.829,"end":211.287,"text":"好可以委員其實也怪我看了很多個類似這樣的案例已經有一些新的做法做那普峰是台灣很大型的企業那我有找機會我也去看一下通常我們都很羨慕人家說日本的什麼養雞場什麼養豬場都沒有意味然後還可以聽音樂我們不想這麼天堂的事情那我們先解決部落的問題好不好"},{"start":211.747,"end":212.548,"text":"第二就是我們關山那個"},{"start":239.62,"end":262.021,"text":"不是,就是我有去參加關山的那個戰備跑道不過去關心我們台東市那個噪音的管制那個補助的一個方法他現在國防部的噪音補助是根據他們國防部的一個規定可是這麼多年來沒有改變過我希望環境部能夠針對台東市的這個噪音能夠做一個研究"},{"start":262.642,"end":290.594,"text":"因為現在我們如果是增加10分貝的話是10倍20分貝的話是100倍30分貝的話是1000倍這樣的方式來去研究每一個里那個按照那個軍用機場叫自航基地那個每5公里或是每1公里那個分貝數去研究一下他們現在在那邊開民宿業者沒有人要去住啊因為噪音太大如果去那邊睡覺根本沒辦法睡覺所以我是希望他們這個噪音補償能夠用民航的規定現在是用"},{"start":291.654,"end":292.814,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於環境部主管預算"},{"start":321.752,"end":335.862,"text":" bicyn 針加了大概百分之七十二點三四我希望你們就針對這個部分可以做好好的研究而不是只是畫一個噪音什麼航空噪音管制區而已是應該是應該有一個很清楚的距離這個機場"},{"start":337.723,"end":366.098,"text":"五百公尺一公里兩公里的話他的分貝是多少而這做這樣的補償可以嗎OK 報告委員這個是這個計畫是針對那個騎重機那個autobike去加長集合的啦不是這個機場的噪音我知道因為就一般的民眾來講他們沒有這樣的設備去檢測他到底噪音對他的生活的影響嘛那是不是台東那邊也可以做一個這樣的一個研究讓他們做補償有一個依據我們請問我們大氣石市長"},{"start":366.898,"end":380.998,"text":"跟那個委員報告目前那個軍用航空機場的噪音國防部這邊每一個就是機場每一個每一季會把這個噪音監測結果報到環保局這邊來然後如果說整個民眾的疑慮是說它是用24小時當然是24小時的話是"},{"start":384.002,"end":399.384,"text":"第……那個啊。 因為照樣量測有個規定,如果說委員這邊有建議的話,那我們可以找黃旺群我們再測一次,我們測一次是10天,10天坐下來,然後去評估說他的照樣等級到哪裡。"},{"start":400.305,"end":401.767,"text":"二、邀請環境部部長列席報告案2案"},{"start":419.167,"end":442.51,"text":"沒有因為地域的關係而做更改所以我們希望有一個等級嘛有一個級距可以嗎我們兩個一個良策部分我們再安排一下那公務部那部分我們因為補助是他們那邊主導的最後也是募領的部分也就是關山鎮月美堆肥廠他們在11月6號民眾有到那邊無論是議員還有部門主人去那邊抗議說"},{"start":443.551,"end":444.572,"text":" bicyclone"},{"start":473.351,"end":501.142,"text":"學校距離不到500公尺那以後學校上課的話真的是要緊閉門窗還要開空調還要開空氣清淨機這些費用都誰要來支付?其實因為關山鎮他們鎮長是非常積極是改善畜牧業養豬廢水的所以我們也要一起來瞭解一下這個部分要通盤檢討要對策可以嗎?如果它勢必要蓋的話你要一個因應的方案募領的方案可以嗎?我們這邊來研究一下謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":504.72,"end":507.376,"text":"謝謝盧憲伊委員接下來請蘇清泉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1343,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時29分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：盧委員早。"],["盧委員縣一：部長早，通常我們在看環境問題，會先看都會區的，再想一下原鄉的問題，我們先看屏東縣都會區為例，大概一個月之內可以告發27個業者關於農畜牧產業一些廢棄污染物、污染水源，我看了一下，裁罰大概就是10萬塊，如果按照空氣污染的告發是10萬塊，如果是因為牧場的流水設備不佳，可以裁罰6,000到60萬元，我想說常常發生這樣的事情，是不是因為它的罰款太低了？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這就是因為一個比較高，所以我們的地方環保稽查人員可能會開不下去，一個是如果比較低，他可能很輕易的就可以……"],["盧委員縣一：一個月內告發27個業者，你先用這個邏輯來想，我們再想原住民地區。我是來自屏東縣瑪家鄉，瑪家鄉有一個部落叫做筏灣村，筏灣村原本的舊部落是我們排灣族的根源地，也就是我們的發祥地，在民國四十幾年搬到這個地方以後，他們是先來的，到了一個地區，在沿山公路，後來有些公司就在旁邊開了畜牧業，結果到現在，如果我們在那邊辦婚禮、辦活動，你都是跟蒼蠅一起享用那個宴席，或者說享用那個味道，可是我剛才說了，屏東縣的都會區一個月可以告發27次，這個部落可說是天天可以告發，卻沒有人去理會他們，所以我希望可以組個專案小組，比如你針對卜蜂畜牧場，它已經收購目前這邊周圍的一些農地準備要蓋飼料場，我們先看一下影片。","沒有關係，我的意思就是說，這個距離部落都不到500公尺，也就是500公尺以內，甚至是300公尺，大概兩、三百公尺左右，它現在在那邊要蓋一個非常大的畜牧場，第一，它沒有睦鄰專案；第二，它沒有窗口可以跟部落的居民來做溝通，到底要怎麼來改善他們居住的環境？我希望政府能夠把關，因為它是我們排灣族的發祥地，第一個部落在那裡，如果我要去那邊，我都要考慮說我等一下是不是又要跟蒼蠅在一起、又要跟那些異味在一起？對他們來講是非常的可憐，所以請你能夠針對卜蜂公司做一個研究可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，也報告委員，我看了很多類似這樣的案例，已經有一些新的作法，卜蜂是臺灣很大型的企業，找機會我也去看一下……"],["盧委員縣一：通常我們都會很羨慕人家說日本的養雞場、養豬場都沒有異味，然後還可以聽音樂，我們不想這麼天堂的事情，我們先解決部落的問題好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：對，因為卜蜂是大型的企業，其實我相信我們臺灣已經有很多畜牧業主動改善它的廢水還有氣味的問題，都有很好的成效，我們也希望大家一起來推動，這個也需要委員帶我們去看一看多支持。"],["盧委員縣一：OK！如果你去瑪家鄉的話，我帶你去。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題、沒問題。"],["盧委員縣一：還有蘇清泉召委，他也是屏東縣民。第二個，我有參加關山戰備跑道的說明會，去關心我們臺東市噪音管制的補助方法，目前國防部的噪音專案補助是根據國防部相關規定，但是這麼多年來沒有改變過，希望環境部可以針對臺東市的噪音做一個研究，如果增加10分貝是10倍，20分貝是100倍，30分貝是1,000倍，以這樣的方式研究每個村里和軍用機場志航基地的距離，針對每5公里或每1公里的分貝數去研究，因為現在有很多居民在那邊開民宿，但沒有人要去住，因為噪音太大，根本沒辦法睡覺，所以我希望這個噪音補償能夠改依據民航相關規定。依據噪音管制辦法規定，是由中央主管機關會同國防部定之，但現在卻完全由國防部一個單位在做，沒有辦法取得民眾諒解，所以請環境部跟國防部一起來研究，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是國防部主管，但我會跟我們同仁討論如何研議解決這個事情。"],["盧委員縣一：好，因為我知道你們明年噪音相關經費大概增加72.34%，希望可以針對這個部分好好研究，而不是只是劃一個什麼航空噪音管制區而已，應該要有一個很清楚的距離區分，距離機場500公尺、1公里、2公里等各個分貝數多少，而做不同的補償，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：OK，報告委員，我們這個計畫是針對重機、摩托車加強稽核，而不是機場噪音的部分。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，因為對一般民眾來講，他們沒有相關設備可以檢測噪音對他們生活上的影響，所以是不是在臺東也可以有這樣的研究，讓他們的補償有一個依據？"],["彭部長啓明：我請大氣司司長跟委員說明。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，目前的軍用航空機場噪音管制，國防部會把每一個機場每一季的噪音監測結果報到環保局，如果整個……"],["盧委員縣一：民眾的疑慮是因為他們是用24小時監測，當然24小時是低於……"],["張司長順欽：因為噪音量測有個規定，如果委員這邊有建議，我們可以找環保局再測一次……"],["盧委員縣一：他應該是採取最高……"],["張司長順欽：我們測一次是10天，10天做下來，再去評估噪音等級，是不是近期戰機起降比較頻繁，噪音的問題比較嚴重，我們要……"],["盧委員縣一：當地的居民表示願意配合國家政策，不過這10年來，只補助他們一台冷氣機3萬塊，還有氣密窗而已，其他什麼都沒有……"],["張司長順欽：是，因為那是……"],["盧委員縣一：而且是一視同仁，沒有因為地域關係而有不同的補助，所以我們希望有一個等級、級距，可以嗎？"],["張司長順欽：兩點報告，一個是量測部分我們會再安排，至於國防部的部分，因為補助是他們主導，我們再跟他們協調看看。"],["盧委員縣一：最後也是有關睦鄰部分，11月6號有民眾到關山鎮月眉堆肥廠抗議，不願意跟堆肥場當鄰居，包括議員，還有布農族人，不過業者態度非常強硬，不願意跟他們溝通，並表示沒有要跟大家商量的意思，只有中央農業部要跟他們開說明會，並沒有要採共識決，也就是說，他們沒有要採取部落同意的意思，這部分我希望你們也可以去關心一下，因為這個堆肥廠距離學校不到500公尺，以後學校上課真的要緊閉門窗，還要開空調、開空氣清淨機，這些費用要誰來支付？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為關山鎮鎮長非常積極在改善畜牧業、養豬廢水的部分，所以我們會一起來了解。"],["盧委員縣一：這個部分要通盤檢討、研議對策，可以嗎？如果勢必要蓋，也要有一個因應的睦鄰方案，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：OK，我們來研究一下。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員。","接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}},{"id":"156901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b5b2eb9e10cdebe702a0d4a4306ab205f5ae72a34e051796e53e0a86760a0e7675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:40:50 - 10:48:41","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:40:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:48:41+08:00","duration":471,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.78471875,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.41284375,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.640343750000003,"end":17.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.84221875,"end":20.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.56784375,"end":21.614093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.934718750000002,"end":22.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.84159375,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.21284375,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.47846875,"end":27.250343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.38534375,"end":28.937843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.42721875,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.299718750000004,"end":38.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.13034375,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.96534375,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.142218750000005,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.63159375,"end":44.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.665343750000005,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":47.68596875,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.744718750000004,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.33534375,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.79471875,"end":57.321593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.844718750000006,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.734718750000006,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.78471875,"end":67.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.02471875,"end":68.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.18909375,"end":68.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.96534375,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":69.01596875,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.18471875,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.88034375000001,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":74.29784375,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":87.64596875000001,"end":102.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.70784375000001,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.34034375,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.50471875000001,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":103.30596875,"end":104.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.53096875000001,"end":135.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.41471875000002,"end":137.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.24971875,"end":141.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.28721875000002,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.50221875,"end":148.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.93221875,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.03346875,"end":146.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.08409375000002,"end":146.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.11784375000002,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.40471875,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.19784375,"end":147.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.73346875000001,"end":152.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.23909375000002,"end":154.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.22159375,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.92159375,"end":162.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.33034375,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.81534375,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.12721875,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.54471875000002,"end":169.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.77221875,"end":173.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.61534375000002,"end":178.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.90596875,"end":180.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.04471875000002,"end"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案。"},{"start":63.8,"end":85.227,"text":"大陸人士到金門的醫院看診現在本來就有本來就是開放的嘛所以本來就有嘛現在就是已經有小三通可以到金門來看診嘛這個是現行政策沒錯吧所以開放大陸人士到金門看診現在有讓我們整個台灣島門戶大開已經讓那個人士大陸人士大舉進攻嗎變成那個木馬屠城了嗎現在發生了嗎現在有木馬屠城了嗎"},{"start":87.628,"end":92.05,"text":"條例第十一條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":105.396,"end":110.1,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案．一、審查：一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查�"},{"start":121.71,"end":135.117,"text":"事會讓台澎金馬門戶大開。」然後還因此封了本人叫陳山貴說你要讓大多人士來金門看診讓金馬門戶大開所以我們現在已經相關部會已經直接打臉了好謝謝兩位接著我們請交通部跟國發會"},{"start":139.458,"end":153.619,"text":"來江部聽一下這個國發委昨天就知道題目了這個江部那個杭政司嘛大使長好賴總統有說你看這句是不是賴總統說的中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬有沒有這句話賴總統有沒有這樣說"},{"start":157.243,"end":169.07,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次"},{"start":182.099,"end":186.263,"text":"條例第十一條、第十二條及第十三條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":208.769,"end":214.251,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":232.925,"end":253.432,"text":"跟委員報告齁目前金門港他是國內三港那金門是國內港那金門跟大陸大陸跟中國大陸往來啊那這樣算是國際之間往來還是國內之間往來你說一下交通部行政司啊金門跟大陸現在廈門港有在往來金門水都港廈門港往來這個兩地這個之間往來是國際港還是國內港是國際之間往來還是國內之間往來金門跟廈門往來是國內的往來嗎因為依照你說的是國內港啊"},{"start":261.516,"end":264.1,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":277.578,"end":280.48,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":302.535,"end":309.487,"text":"條例第12屆第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第20次全體委員會第21次全體委員會第22次全體委員會第23次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第25次全體委員會第26次全體委員會第27次全體委員會第28次全體委員會第29次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第31次全體委員會第32次全體委員會第32次全體委員會第33次全體委員會第34"},{"start":317.11,"end":341.147,"text":"江埔你回去研究一下這題很難嗎?江埔你回去研究一下這題很難嗎?那因為有這樣的通行辦法其實我們有相關的...沒有你告訴我是哪個港因為為什麼我要問這一題這麼重要我不是在考你政治題因為這關係經濟民生因為我今天修說要做這個離島經濟條例自由貿易港區交通部公務署財政部公務署公務署在嗎?公務署上來的時候對不起主席再一分鐘就好了公務署快一點啊"},{"start":344.089,"end":363.846,"text":"這個根據自由貿易港區的規定喔為什麼要修理到經濟條例大家一定要理解根據自由因為我們基本想做自由貿易港區那現在台北高雄什麼等等地方都有做自由貿易港區因為他們是屬於國際港國務署你是不是告訴我金門港因為不是國際港所以所以不能做自由貿易港區對吧因為自由貿易港區要國際港對吧"},{"start":368.231,"end":374.418,"text":"自由貿易港區設管條例是要在國際的通商口岸。對,要在國際的通商口岸嘛。那金門是不是呢?"},{"start":375.458,"end":376.939,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":399.52,"end":424.742,"text":"都沒有辦法回答我們只好去訂一個條例今天要審的這個條例就是為了這個原因而提出來的不然我們就不用審我們就直接試用就好了嘛對不對因為你們也不敢說我們是國內港你們說我們是國內港又不敢說我們跟下輪往來是國際港也不敢說我們跟他往來是國內往來你們自己都做不了決定啊所以我們要再申請自由貿易港去的時候你們這些單位沒有個單位敢說yes當然也不敢說no"},{"start":427.892,"end":454.523,"text":"來好最後一題啦對不起主席就是這一題啦就請問那個江部你跟我們回答這個怎麼回答好啦我請江部回答就好了不然你幫我回答看賴總統說你支持不支持來這個跟委員報告齁其實我們在金門港埠最近這五年會投了五十億你不要告訴我投資你告訴我我們要政策所以如果我們這樣子我們要申請你會自由賣港區江部你支持不支持"},{"start":456.058,"end":458.922,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":807,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時40分）謝謝主席，我們請衛福部、陸委會代表，等一下交通部、國發會代表請主動上來。"],["主席：請陸委會、衛福部，還有國發會……"],["陳委員玉珍：國發會跟交通部等一下一起上來，這樣比較快。"],["主席：OK，交通部，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為本席的提案和國際醫療特區有關，我先請教陸委會和衛福部，你們覺得開放大陸人士到金門來看診，是不是會讓臺澎金馬門戶大開？衛福部怎麼看？"],["郭專門委員威中：只要是有來臺就醫的需求，我們都支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：都是支持的嘛！現在事實上是不是已經有大陸人士來臺灣本島看診了？也有吧！"],["郭專門委員威中：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：接下來請陸委會代表回答。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：大陸人士到金門的醫院看診現在本來就有了。"],["陳委員玉珍：本來就是開放的嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：本來就有了。"],["陳委員玉珍：本來就有嘛！現在就是已經有小三通，可以到金門來看診嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，沒錯啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：這是現行政策，沒錯吧！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：本來就有。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以開放大陸人士到金門看診，現在有讓我們整個臺灣島門戶大開，已經讓大陸人士大舉進攻，變成木馬屠城了嗎？現在發生了嗎？現在有木馬屠城了嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：應該是說讓他們來看診，跟我們設立一個醫療專區，然後有一些其他的措施，那是不一樣的。單純讓大陸人士來看診，這個本來就沒有問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：是嘛！是沒有問題的吧！讓大陸人士來臺看診是沒問題的吧！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，沒有問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會覺得沒問題嘛！所以本席提出這個醫療專區裡頭，當然，相關法令我們跟衛福部也可以再繼續討論，看有哪些規定可以讓整個醫療體系更縝密，這個我可以同意。但是民進黨所提出來的反對意見是說，因為開放大陸人士到金門看診，會讓臺澎金馬門戶大開，還因此封本人為「陳三桂」，說我要讓大陸人士來金門看診，讓臺澎金馬門戶大開，而現在相關部會已經直接打臉了。好，謝謝兩位。","接下來我們請交通部跟國發會。國發會昨天就知道題目了，請問交通部航政司代司長，你看這一句是不是賴總統說的：中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬。有沒有這句話？賴總統有沒有這樣說？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：報告，因為這超出我們交通部的……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是！總統有沒有這樣說？這個報導的媒體是中央社。有沒有這樣說？總統有沒有這樣說你都不敢回答啊！賴總統有沒有這樣說？這是公開說的。你不知道啊？你沒有在注意聽總統講話啊！總統有沒有這樣說？中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬。","好，你不知道！國發會，總統有沒有這樣說？","你也不敢說？政務官也不敢說！事務官也不敢說！賴總統說的話，你們都不專心聽喔！中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬，我不是要問你贊不贊成，我是說總統有沒有說過這句話啦，只是問這個事實有沒有發生過。","總統有沒有說過這句話啦！這沒有辦法回答嗎？","哇！總統講過什麼，你們都不敢回答啊！總統有沒有這樣說過？陸委會，你有沒有聽總統這樣講過？","為什麼一直偷笑？你們偷笑賴總統，這樣不行！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：賴總統講過這個話。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！我只是要說總統有講過這句話。沒問題嘛！我知道賴總統講過這句話，全國都聽過，你們竟然不敢回答！","來，交通部，如果總統說了中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬，那就是兩國嘛！兩國之間通商的港口是國際港還是國內港？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：跟委員報告，目前金門港是國內商港，那……"],["陳委員玉珍：金門是國內港，那金門跟中國大陸往來啊！這樣算是國際之間的往來還是國內之間的往來？你說一下！交通部航政司，金門水頭港現在跟大陸廈門港有在往來，兩地之間的往來是國際港還是國內港？是國際之間的往來還是國內之間的往來？金門跟廈門往來是國內的往來嗎？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：依照……"],["陳委員玉珍：你說我們是國內港啊！金門跟廈門往來是什麼往來？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：因為在89年的時候，院裡面有核定金門港是國內港，依據兩岸條例……"],["陳委員玉珍：89年的時候還沒有開放港口往來。是什麼往來？你告訴我是國內港還是國際港！"],["盧代理副司長清泉：那個時候開放是國內港，因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那現在開放跟廈門往來是國際往來還是國內往來？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：兩岸之間本來就有一個通航的辦法，依照那個辦法，我們來實施相關的作業，讓兩岸旅客和貨物可以互相流通。"],["陳委員玉珍：對、對、對。那廈門跟金門之間的往來是國內往來還是國際往來？廈門是屬於中華人民共和國，金門是屬於中華民國，根據賴總統的說法，兩岸之間是不同國家嘛，互不隸屬。沒疑問嘛！這是總統說的嘛！你要不要遵照賴總統的政策，把它訂為是國際港？金門應該是國際港，不對嗎？還是你覺得賴總統說錯了？交通部，你回去研究一下，這題有很難嗎？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：跟委員報告，因為有這樣的通函辦法，其實我們有相關的……"],["陳委員玉珍：你告訴我是哪個港，為什麼我要問的這一題這麼重要？我不是在考你政治題，因為這關係經濟民生，我今天修離島建設條例要做自由貿易港區，交通部、財政部關務署……關務署在嗎？關務署上來說……對不起，主席，再1分鐘就好了。關務署，快一點。根據自由貿易港區的規定，為什麼要修離島建設條例？大家一定要理解，因為我們基本上想做自由貿易港區，現在臺北、高雄等等地方都有做自由貿易港區，因為他們是屬於國際港。關務署，你是不是告訴我，金門港因為不是國際港，所以不能做自由貿易港區，對吧？因為自由貿易港區要國際港，對吧？"],["陳副署長世鋒：自由貿易港區設管條例是要在國際的通商口岸……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，要在國際的通商口岸嘛。"],["陳副署長世鋒：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：金門是不是呢？"],["陳副署長世鋒：金門目前這樣來看的話，就是依兩岸人民關係條例這邊的講法，當然界定它的定位不是國際港，它有準國際港的……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我們不是國際港，因為這有一個特別的地位，所以我們才要在離島建設條例特別修這個條例，目的在這裡，不然我們適用現在的法律就好，就是因為你們這些官員都沒有辦法回答，跟賴總統的心都不一樣，都沒有辦法回答，我們只好去訂一個條例，今天要審的這個條例就是為了這個原因而提出來的，不然我們就不用審，我們直接適用就好了嘛，對不對？因為你們也不敢說我們是國內港，你們說我們是國內港，又不敢說我們跟廈門往來，是國際港，也不敢說我們跟它往來是國內往來，你們自己都做不了決定，所以我們在申請自由貿易港區的時候，你們這些單位沒有一個單位敢說Yes，當然也不敢說No。","最後一題了，對不起，主席，就是這一題，請問交通部，你跟我回答，這個怎麼回答？"],["邱委員志偉：已經10分鐘了。"],["陳委員玉珍：我請交通部回答就好了，不然你幫我回答，看賴總統說的你支不支持？"],["邱委員志偉：我為什麼要回答你的問題？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：跟委員報告，其實我們在金門港埠最近這5年會投入50億……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不要告訴我投資，你告訴我政策，我們要政策。"],["盧代理副司長清泉：這個部分我們會儘量支持地方的發展。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以如果我們要申請成為自由貿易港區，交通部支不支持？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：這個部分牽涉到整個離島跟兩岸之間的整體政策……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以呢？"],["盧代理副司長清泉：應該要審慎來考慮。"],["陳委員玉珍：審慎考慮，賴總統說的話，你要聽進去，對不對？要聽進去吧？要遵照賴總統說的話來執行，對不對？謝謝。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲）：請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","黃健豪","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","蔡易餘","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文\n修正草案」案、(二)本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(三)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)本\n院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)\n本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；二、審查：\n(一)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員賴士葆\n等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員邱志偉等 22 人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b4500e07eda7b1b706b270dce3daca9a75ae72a34e051796eba8a105b9bd18edd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:42:08 - 10:48:59","影片長度":"00:06:51","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐富癸等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）至（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）至（七）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）、（五）、（六）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第（三）及（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。\n【第三、四案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:42:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:48:59+08:00","duration":411,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.67034375,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.29846875,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.22221875,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.35721875,"end":19.555343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.86346875,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.555343750000002,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.95159375,"end":22.508468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.352218750000002,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.512218750000002,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.13221875,"end":28.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.410343750000003,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.96721875,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.051593750000002,"end":33.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.96659375,"end":35.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.86471875,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.01221875,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.21034375,"end":41.492843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.64034375,"end":43.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.55159375,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.213468750000004,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.140968750000006,"end":52.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.20846875,"end":57.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.12346875,"end":58.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.79409375,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.13159375,"end":62.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.78471875,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.25284375000001,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.54346875,"end":68.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.29846875,"end":71.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.85096875,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.25971875,"end":75.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.37346875,"end":119.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.21471875,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.70409375000001,"end":133.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.88346875000002,"end":143.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.73846875,"end":171.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.48096875000002,"end":172.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.83096875,"end":174.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.95721875,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.12409375000001,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.74596875,"end":218.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.83659375000002,"end":220.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.68409375000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.38409375,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.76346875000002,"end":227.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.01846875,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.44659375000003,"end":282.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.40034375,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.48034375000003,"end":338.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.57284375,"end":349.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.28846875000005,"end":353.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.18659375000004,"end":357.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.38409375000003,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.47534375000004,"end":380.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.62971875000005,"end":399.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.85909375,"end":403.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.44471875000005,"end":410.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.69784375,"end":404.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.21159375,"end":411.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.53221875,"end":410.97096875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.034,"end":41.207,"text":"謝謝主席。有請人事行政那個市長。好,請蘇人市長。委員長。市長好。我想請教一下吼。不管是新住民、原住民包含你。我們是不是媽媽生的?是嗎?一定是的。對。我們是不是人?"},{"start":42.777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案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案 案 議員吳�"},{"start":121.193,"end":142,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這內政部他有從那個移民署的新住民的相關的領域的這些同仁還有再加其他的業務他成立一個籌備處好但是依照中央政府機構總原而法第五條第三頁第三項的規定"},{"start":143.82,"end":159.017,"text":"各機關應章、時機、元額數及人力列型編入年度總預算,但是我們翻了移民署114年的預算書,完全沒有相關的作業計劃,請教我們的市長。"},{"start":162.721,"end":181.359,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案。二）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":187.545,"end":197.474,"text":"資源的方式。第四（如果是用一波的沒有法源依據怎麼波。第五（如果是用資源的這樣的長期資源人事長你覺得合適嗎?"},{"start":204.089,"end":220.287,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為整個籌備處的一個組織機關在內政部那至於明年明年如果要掛牌嘛假設是明年的七月掛牌嘛會牽涉到預算…假設但是這個依據法源在哪裡?"},{"start":223.176,"end":234.286,"text":"我跟委員澄清一下因為現在在籌備處直接在執行的因為在移民署有一個移民事務組60個60位他是以這一個60位為班底在進行籌備的相關業務"},{"start":242.219,"end":242.259,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":256.519,"end":283.621,"text":"如果這件事情就是不足嘛 所以我們才要去要求嘛大家以後都不用遵守法律了 你就是說這樣子的話都要走後門採取資源的方法 繞過法律的成立本來就不應該存在的黑機關 所以如果是會影響的話是不是你有說早上我們的總召友跟你說 你說要發文給移民署"},{"start":284.501,"end":293.835,"text":"看他們如何提出新住民發展署的組織法才能成立新住民發展署的籌備處。所以之前在2021年2月18號行政院將成立數位發展"},{"start":300.785,"end":301.285,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":322.421,"end":323.942,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":339.66,"end":340.721,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":359.474,"end":361.436,"text":"我跟委員報告一下因為內政部很重視這個所以他們很認真你要給他足夠的時間去把這個數的功能把它詳細規劃嘛"},{"start":380.694,"end":382.715,"text":"我跟委員報告這是我們內部有在評估只是現在還在作業不方便講"},{"start":403.522,"end":409.793,"text":"好,希望你今天講的到明年我們的新住民發展組會生出來。謝謝。好,謝謝委員。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":738,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時42分）謝謝主席，有請人事行政總處蘇人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["麥委員玉珍：人事長好。我想請教一下，不管是新住民、原住民包含你，我們是不是媽媽生的？是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定是的。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們是不是人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定是的。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以是人的話，我們在對話的時候是不是眼睛要看著對方？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，眼睛要看著對方，在上次委員質詢的時候有提醒我和院長……"],["麥委員玉珍：我問你是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以狗跟人對話的時候眼睛看哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對不起，我沒有養狗，我不知道。"],["麥委員玉珍：你沒有養狗，但是你有這個理念，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有這樣的經驗。"],["麥委員玉珍：你沒有這個經驗也沒有這個理念，但是我們大家都知道狗跟人對話的時候都看地下。我今天想要請教你，7月16日新住民基本法三讀通過，當初在協商的時候，三黨達成共識，一年之後要成立，結果行政院和內政部說現在先成立新住民發展署籌備處工作小組，明年掛牌成立新住民發展署籌備處，請教蘇人事長，籌備處的法源依據在哪裡？籌備處的人員如何移撥？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，內政部有從移民署新住民相關領域的這些同仁，還有再加其他的業務，成立一個籌備處。"],["麥委員玉珍：依照中央政府機構總員額法第五條第三項規定，各機關應將實際員額數及人力類型，編入年度總預算，但是我們翻了移民署114年的預算書，完全沒有相關的作業計畫，請教人事長，這樣沒有依照法規把人力需求納入年度總預算，這樣的方式合理嗎？第二，如果沒有計畫編制，請教籌備處的人力是用什麼方法來處理？第三，是用移撥的，還是用支援的方式？第四，如果是用移撥的，沒有法源依據怎麼移撥？第五，如果是用支援的，這樣的長期支援，人事長，你覺得合適嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，因為整個籌備處的主責機關在內政部，至於明年如果要掛牌，假設明年的7月掛牌會牽涉到預算……"],["麥委員玉珍：假設？但是這個法源依據在哪裡？沒有假設！我們問的沒有假設……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員澄清一下，因為現在是籌備處直接在執行，移民署移民事務組有60位人力，他是以這60位為班底進行籌備的相關業務。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以之前他們都沒有在籌備，沒有在做這些業務嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在才做籌備業務，所以長期支援會不會影響單位的業務執行？如果不會影響的話……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在就是在做這些事情……"],["麥委員玉珍：這些事情就是不足嘛！所以我們才要去要求，大家以後都不用遵守法律了，這樣的話都走後門採取支援的方法，繞過法律成立本來就不應該存在的黑機關，所以如果會影響的話，早上我們總召跟你說的時候，你說要發文給移民署，要他們提出新住民發展署組織法，才能成立新住民發展署籌備處。之前2021年2月18日行政院將成立數位發展發部的時候，也是這樣處理的，立法院三讀通過組織法法案之後，才成立數位發展部籌備處，所以我要求人事長要跟內政部部長劉世芳說不能這樣違法行政，要儘快提出新住民發展署組織法的行政院版本，不要讓我們賴清德總統對新住民的政見都是空話，不要開空頭支票騙我們新住民，選舉前是山盟海誓，選舉後就對新住民說「歹勢」，這個部分你們要嚴正的去要求。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會啦！委員，你對政府要有信心。"],["麥委員玉珍：信心？剛才有很多委員在質詢，連我們都有提出新住民組織法，但是你連提都沒有提叫作信心嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，因為內政部很重視這個，所以他們很認真，你要給它足夠的時間去把這個署的功能詳細規劃。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果是像剛才羅委員說的「部」，我們是因為沒辦法消除哪一個「部」再增加，「署」也是一樣都必須要去執行，所以沒辦法去把哪一個「署」消除。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，我們內部有在評估，只是現在還在作業不方便講，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：希望你今天講的，到明年我們的新住民發展署會生出來，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥委員、謝謝蘇人事長。剛剛主席已經宣告了，在鄭委員天財發言後，我們就休息5分鐘。","有請鄭委員天財發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-13","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","羅智強","莊瑞雄","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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這個我們看到現在APEC正在開嘛是不是"},{"start":20.41,"end":39.03,"text":"看到說習近平跟拜登在APEC要談有關於他們政權交接這段時間,簡單講啦,用白話文講啦,就是政權交接這段時間叫老共不要軍演啦,盡可能不要軍演,是不是這樣?"},{"start":40.15,"end":41.711,"text":"白宮有相關的聲明有提到拜習會確實會提到美方對於台海情勢穩定的關注"},{"start":59.034,"end":84.848,"text":"我原先這樣解釋,我們尊重,但他原來的條文是這樣不是尊重我嗎?白宮的公告的內容是說會表達對台海安全穩定的關切關切嗎?這個是不是可以解讀啊?這個大家都知道啦,但是我希望從你嘴巴裡面講在現在拜登也好,未來的川普還是要中美兩大國共管台灣,這國要成立嗎?"},{"start":86.363,"end":92.788,"text":"委員的觀察我們都尊重,你們的觀察我們都尊重同意啦,不用尊重要同意嗎?你同意嗎?我們尊重你這樣說都sneaky你知道嗎?那Hollywood都抓不到,北京都那Hollywood,你是有泥鰍吧?泥鰍很難抓的"},{"start":116.775,"end":132.167,"text":"臺灣的安全是等於是看中美兩大國我們要話聲一下啊老師他們兩個人講話林希尼也在那裏啊你有沒有交代一下賴總統有沒有交代一下林希尼說我關在這裏我要出聲一下"},{"start":135.549,"end":151.421,"text":"請各位說明一下APEC的專案國安局大概負責的是維安的安全這部份是我們的職責那其他部份可能假如涉及到外交部門的話應該由外交部門來對外說明比較恰當這個到底那合理的說掉以後所以你就很難抓住這個沒有第一個我要強調的一點在這裡國會電台我要強調大家都看到等於台灣的安全中美兩大國來共同共管"},{"start":164.031,"end":166.896,"text":"我們是當事人,我們要發聲啊!我們要講話啊!結果我們都不講話,就變成他們兩個決定我們的前途喔!"},{"start":177.059,"end":199.816,"text":"臺美之間的溝通非常的緊密跟順暢那只要美國有資深官員跟對岸有任何接觸慣例上來講都會讓我方來知道那這部分要由外交部門來說明我們跟對岸的溝通呢我現在一邊通一邊不通啊這才是一個很悲哀的地方啦好吧這個東西你都不講啊這個我們再看另外一個題目"},{"start":201.395,"end":224.001,"text":"現在來講臺灣遭受到網路攻擊多不多有在增加一直在增加當中對於各樣的網路攻擊除了防禦追蹤以外有沒有人力及時下架對方的站點有沒有可能委員講的是那個所謂認知作戰假訊息嗎對假訊息以及暗網的情緒的部分等等"},{"start":224.321,"end":246.124,"text":"有沒有人力有沒有人力有有有因為這個部分對因為這個部分只要假訊息他有違反我們政府的法令的話國家法令的話我們是可以來進行檢舉要求他下架第一部分第二部分假如假訊息是違反了社群平台網站管理的規定的話我們也可以跟社群平台來檢舉請他下架有這個機制對按網你有沒有辦法人力管"},{"start":246.604,"end":250.466,"text":"國防部情報局一列一缸子的長官通通在暗網裡面可以買賣價格多少呢260塊USDT就是要太大幣啊260塊等於差不多260塊美金"},{"start":274.035,"end":289.241,"text":"國防部情報局的相關的長官的資料各自的資料都在這裡都在這裡260塊USDT這一部分國安局你們是管情報的對不過有抓一抓吧這個"},{"start":290.381,"end":308.906,"text":"我們會注意這些船扇背後有沒有一些有系統的操作這第一部分那第二部分那個資料情資正確與否是不是真的資訊應該要由國防部來經過查證之後再來看是不是我看了一下都好真勒我拖行的不要念了這個不要念了這個你要我給你啦東西260塊台幣可以買鋼紙"},{"start":314.967,"end":315.108,"text":"賴士葆委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時42分）謝謝主席，各位先進，請一下蔡局長。"],["主席：來，局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：局長早。我們看到現在APEC正在開，看到習近平跟拜登在APEC要談有關於他們政權交接這段時間，簡單用白話文講，就是政權交接這段時間叫老共儘可能不要軍演，是不是這樣？白話文這樣講可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，也差不多，白宮相關的聲明有提到拜習會確實會提到美方對於臺海情勢穩定的關注，有這樣的訊息……"],["賴委員士葆：簡單講，就是希望政權交接不要軍演，簡單講就是這樣，有這樣講嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，委員這樣解釋我們尊重，但他原來的條文……"],["賴委員士葆：是不是這樣？不是尊重我。"],["蔡局長明彥：白宮公告的內容是說，會表達對臺海安全穩定的關切。"],["賴委員士葆：關切！這是不是可以解讀……這個大家都知道，但是我希望從你嘴巴講出來，不管是現在的拜登也好，未來的川普也好，還是一樣中、美兩大國共管臺灣，這句話成立嗎？可以這樣講嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員的觀察我們都尊重。"],["賴委員士葆：不能只講尊重，要同意啦，你同意嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重。"],["賴委員士葆：你這樣講很皮，你知道嗎？像「鰗鰡」一樣抓不住，你知道泥鰍嗎？泥鰍很難抓、抓不住，對不對？大家都這樣認為，譬如臺灣的安全等於是看中、美兩大國，我們要喊一下啊，老是他們兩個人講話，現在林信義也在那裡啊，你們有沒有交代一下？賴總統有沒有交代一下林信義說，我在這裡，我也要出聲一下，可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，關於APEC的專案，國安局大概負責的是維安的安全，這部分是我們的職責；其他的部分假如涉及到外交部門的話，應該由外交部門來對外說明比較恰當。"],["賴委員士葆：這個跟「鰗鰡」一樣，溜掉了！所以你就很難抓住。第一個，我要強調的一點，在這裡國會殿堂我要強調，大家都看到，等於臺灣的安全由中美兩大國來共管，我們是當事人，我們要出聲一下啊！我們要講話啊！結果我們都不講話，就變成他們兩個決定我們的前途，這樣可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，臺美之間的溝通非常地緊密跟順暢，只要美國有資深官員跟對岸有任何接觸，慣例上來講都會讓我方知道，這部分要由外交部門來說明比較清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：我們跟對岸的溝通呢？我們現在一邊通、一邊不通啊！這才是一個很悲哀的地方。好吧！這個東西你都不講，我們再看另外一個題目。","現在來講，臺灣遭受到網路攻擊多不多？"],["蔡局長明彥：有在增加。"],["賴委員士葆：一直在增加當中？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：對於各樣的網路攻擊，除了防禦、追蹤以外，有沒有能力即時下架對方的站點？有沒有可能？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員講的是所謂認知作戰假訊息可不可以下架？"],["賴委員士葆：對，假訊息以及暗網情資的部份等等，有沒有能力？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["賴委員士葆：有？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。因為這部分只要假訊息有違反我們政府的國家法令的話，我們是可以來進行檢舉，要求它下架，這是第一部分。第二部分，假如假訊息是違反了社群平台網站管理的規定的話，我們也可以跟社群平台來檢舉，請它下架，有這個機制。"],["賴委員士葆：對暗網你有沒有辦法、能力管？"],["蔡局長明彥：暗網比較難，因為暗網很多張貼的IP位置是會跳動。"],["賴委員士葆：局長，我這個不show在PPT裡面，因為這是我的助理在暗網裡面找到的資料。國防部情報局一列、一缸子的長官通通在暗網裡面可以買賣，價格多少呢？260塊USDT，就是要泰達幣260塊，等於差不多260塊美金，國防部情報局相關長官的資料都在這裡。針對這一部分，國安局你們是管情報的，也去抓一抓吧！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會來注意這些傳散背後有沒有一些有系統的操作，這是第一部分。第二部分，那個資料、情資正確與否，是不是真的資訊，應該要由國防部經過查證之後，再來看是不是對外說明。"],["賴委員士葆：我看了一下，都好真！頭銜我都不要唸了，這個不要唸了……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，由業管單位。"],["賴委員士葆：你要的話，我可以給你啦！這個東西260塊泰達幣，可以買一缸子。"],["主席：賴委員，你花錢買的？"],["賴委員士葆：我花錢買的？去看的啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝賴委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴士葆委員。局長請回，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答委員王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","郭昱晴委員、郭昱晴委員、郭昱晴委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","今日已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、陳永康委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供；委員另約定期限者，從其所定。以上如有涉及機密部分，請確實依相關保密規定辦理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-13","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","黃仁","馬文君","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","陳永康","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄【含秘密會議】","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00002"}}},{"id":"156898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156898","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b2f638d9609b338a6a754e2511c44c3ef5ae72a34e051796ed8480a73c251d2965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:33:27 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我們請局長來 局長請"},{"start":7.759,"end":16.061,"text":"國安局公開預算在年度的這個預算的比例緊不到兩成那相比之下國防部跟外交部的機密的占比分別是5.12%跟6.01%國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算"},{"start":35.686,"end":57.848,"text":"那剛才我們的這個機密的報告裡面大概是10分鐘15分鐘然後接下來就把這些東西收回去那局長你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎還是局長你要說我們會派員到我們的辦公室對都會的檢視對不對我跟各位說明一下因為機密報告因為你會到我們的辦公室來去跟我們來說明這個我是聽到很多的這個不同的單位在講這件事情對"},{"start":58.188,"end":86.557,"text":"但是我想請教一下到我們的單位來說明的時候是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告應該是這樣 機密報告只有立法委員本人那你的國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎對 我們都有審 是你寫的嗎當然不是嘛 是整個幕僚機構寫的嘛同樣的我們的整個質詢能夠是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎當然是整個辦公室嘛我們的揭秘層級是非常的混亂的欸就是說你認為說一個立法委員可以把你們八成國安局八成的預算"},{"start":87.461,"end":101.642,"text":"你們跟我報告然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來我的這些國會助理不能看因為為什麼因為沒有相關的你我一直講說機密的這個機密層級的這種我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的這個設定"},{"start":103.044,"end":117.737,"text":"現在就還是沒有我上任到現在我們這件事情從國防部從外交部到國安局我們提過了幾次每次都說我們現在在妥善的在研究我們會提出一個更好的方式跟美國的這種針對機密風險的這種層級來去接軌這個東西我從2016年我在國安會到現在已經聽了大概8年到9年了8年到9年之後我們還是同樣在回歸這樣的議題"},{"start":127.466,"end":146.015,"text":"．．．．．"},{"start":146.135,"end":160.729,"text":"可不可以來檢討一下這到底是誰要負責國安局還是調查局還是國防部我無法知道因為每一個人都說這個我們內部有自己的機制你做好你的機制他做好他的機制但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛"},{"start":161.449,"end":164.451,"text":"國安的工作包括國安國防外交確實它有高度的機密性那就本局來講會編列機密的預算主要是依照國安局的組織法第9條的規定這是法律的授權那至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣"},{"start":191.812,"end":209.382,"text":"提供一些國外經驗給委員參考以歐洲國家來講幾乎是百分之百的機密沒有對外公開的公開預算歐洲國家是這樣的做法那就美國來講的話我們公開的預算已經是美國公開情報單位公開預算的好幾倍那這大概是有國際的一個國際的這個慣例那請問他們是怎麼樣"},{"start":211.323,"end":211.563,"text":"貴院相關的安排"},{"start":229.876,"end":234.983,"text":"這是需要討論的,我們有我們的揭秘等級,但立法院這邊的揭秘等級要跟（誰負責審核?"},{"start":234.983,"end":238.568,"text":"要能夠來對接,這需要對接。 怎麼樣對接?怎麼樣對接嘛?"},{"start":238.568,"end":245.176,"text":"就是局長你說這個交給立法院,立法院有相關的國安的這種相關的幕僚單位來去判斷我們有或沒有嗎?"},{"start":245.977,"end":246.137,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":269.974,"end":286.015,"text":"．．．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":286.135,"end":304.31,"text":"所以整個內部的資訊是混亂的這個東西你要好好的去做啦我是認真講就是說最好的方式就是現在開始重新啦從國安局國防部所有的情治單位至少有一個一致的系統我們來好好的做好不好我是認真覺得國安局可能要擔負起這樣子的責任啦那第二個部分"},{"start":305.191,"end":307.693,"text":"昨天有那個金融時報有說這個4800億的這個軍售這個軍售案那昨天經過這個我們國防部部長顧部長他是說沒有相關的這樣的狀況沒有說已經有提到清單這樣的部分可是這邊有說一個他有說有這樣的這個情勢這個是誰啊"},{"start":329.852,"end":352.535,"text":"國防高層說好像有跟這個金融時報分享說大概有一個軍售的這個狀況可是部長說沒有那到底是有還是沒有啊對有關於軍售的議題我想我們尊重業管單位國防部對外的一個說法那至於說到底外媒資訊來源是什麼因為他是外國的媒體我們在查證上確實有他的限制性跟難度"},{"start":352.995,"end":356.716,"text":"昨天的這個質詢裡面部長是說這個是很機敏的東西欸不適合公開欸可是怎麼可以適合到跟金融時報跟外媒就可以公開是誰決定他的機密層級跟他可以分享的層級"},{"start":385.461,"end":403.448,"text":"國安高層說的算還是誰說的算?你訂定的機密跟不是機密其實那個落差非常大欸其實我們今年一整年看到所有國防部跟這個國安局有些時候列機密的東西是全部都可以在國際關係討論第一章都可以看到甚至是序章就可以看到"},{"start":403.968,"end":430.897,"text":"所以是誰來定所以你說他是在泄密你說某個國會議員他這個泄密可是他得到的資訊不是從國安局這邊來的他們是從其他的管道來的所以變成說真正有在泄密的這種危機的時候我們沒有辦法去應處真的需要知道狀況的沒有辦法去監督欸如果說這個國安高層講的是真的那就表示說內部的溝通不順暢嘛國防部長不知道國安高層在講什麼東西嘛"},{"start":432.579,"end":438.167,"text":"如果是假的話那你要跟金融時報嚴正的跟他們講說不可以這樣子造謠影響到我國跟美國之間的軍購嗎?"},{"start":440.046,"end":465.047,"text":"如果說我們這個也是機密那個也是機密表示內部溝通不順暢外度監督不能夠去監督沒有這樣的機制我們現在從頭到尾其實我們現在接觸到的東西都是這樣子我必須再強調齁所有預算的審查不是國會議員一個人的工作他是一個辦公室甚至是數個辦公室他聯合要去來去看這個資訊適不適合我應該不用再講說錢上銷流冠軍社"},{"start":466.088,"end":486.443,"text":"這一個案例都有嘛國安密帳投敵我們沒有辦法監督誰有辦法監督就我們還是有一個監督的力量在但是這個監督的力量是必須在合理的範圍不是說我要什麼機密都可以包含國會議員我自己本身也必須要有相關的涉密層級我才能夠看到機密不是說因為我是立法委員就可以看到"},{"start":487.711,"end":511.792,"text":"明選的這些官員當然是有他去這個接密的這個層級在但是除此之外他也必須只在他所工作的範圍內能夠得到這樣子的授權許可我這個東西講了很多這個必須要跨部會來去做聯席會議不然我們都在講假的我上次問外交部說奇怪有些公文這樣子出去你們這個涉密層級是誰訂的我說這個其實應該要國安局來做什麼的"},{"start":514.934,"end":517.816,"text":"我希望我們依照那個基保法的規定還有立院職權刑事法的規定看條文上怎麼來和密的部分有更近近的空間謝謝委員提醒"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時33分）你好，我們請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長早。局長，今天是國安局114年的預算報告，我們知道有分公開跟機密，但是今天的機密報告裡面，我必須強調一下，立法院的預算中心裡面有提到國安局公開預算占年度預算的比例僅不到兩成，相比之下，國防部跟外交部的機密占比分別是5.42%跟6.01%，國安局有絕大部分都在編列機密預算……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才機密的報告大概是10分鐘、15分鐘，然後接下來就把這些東西收回去。局長，你覺得這樣有符合監督的機制嗎？還是局長要說你們會派員到我們的辦公室去一一的解釋，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，都會，跟委員說明一下，因為機密報告……"],["陳委員冠廷：因為你會到我們的辦公室去跟我們說明，我是聽到很多不同的單位在講這件事情，但是我想請教一下，到我們單位來說明的時候，是不是只有立法委員才能夠聽到這樣的報告？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該是這樣，機密報告只有立法委員本人。"],["陳委員冠廷：那國安局局長今天的報告是你寫的嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們都有審……"],["陳委員冠廷：是你寫的嗎？當然不是嘛！是整個幕僚機構寫的。同樣的，我們的整個質詢難道是我一個人就能夠完成的嗎？當然是整個辦公室嘛！我們的機密層級是非常混亂的，就是說你認為一個立法委員可以把國安局八成的預算……你們跟我報告，然後我的這些幕僚單位不能來，我的這些國會助理不能看，為什麼？因為沒有相關的……我一直講機密的揭密層級，我們一定要做一個完整的clearance的設定，現在就還是沒有。","我上任到現在，這件事情從國防部、外交部到國安局，我們提過了幾次，每次你們都說現在妥善的在研究，會提出一個更好的方式，跟美國這種針對機密風險的層級去接軌。這個東西我從2016年在國安會到現在已經聽了大概八年到九年了，八年到九年之後，我們還是同樣回歸這樣的議題，所有的東西都說機密的部分你們會跟委員報告，問題是我一個人，你要給我看國安局數十億、數百億的預算，然後我其他的同仁不能，所以你必須要劃分，包含國會幕僚都必須要有他的揭密層級的確認。這個部分，局長可不可以來檢討一下？就是說這到底是誰要負責？國安局、調查局還是國防部？我無法知道，因為每一個人都說內部有自己的機制，你做好你的機制，他做好他的機制，但是我們很多事情是要跨部會的嘛，我自己都不知道我的揭密層級在哪裡，沒有辦法定期的去審視、沒有辦法定期的去更新我們揭密層級的話，那你所謂的守密、你的機密都沒有意義。局長可不可以針對這個簡單回應一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，簡單說明一下，因為國安的工作包括國安、國防、外交，確實它有高度的機敏性，就本局來講，會編列機密預算主要是依照國安局組織法第九條的規定，這是法律的授權，至於到底機密預算的占比該怎麼樣，也可以提供一些國外的經驗給委員參考。以歐洲國家來講，幾乎是百分之百的機密，沒有對外公開的公開預算，歐洲國家是這樣的作法；就美國來講的話，我們公開的預算已經是美國情報單位公開預算的好幾倍了。這大概是有國際的慣例。"],["陳委員冠廷：請問他們針對這個部分是怎麼樣的監督？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員所提到另外一部分，就是所謂的security 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請，好嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，感謝各位同仁，還有今天出席的各學術單位，還有我們各場館的館長們，我可不可以先請幾位大學校長上臺？這樣待會我們在討論議題的時候，比較可以節省一下時間，好嗎？","我就依序從最右邊的開始，可以嗎？就是高雄大學的陳校長、臺東大學的鄭校長、中山大學的李校長、清華大學的高校長、臺灣師範大學的吳校長、高雄師範大學的王校長、東華大學的徐校長……"],["主席：請這些校長移動一下，辛苦了。"],["林委員倩綺：政治大學李校長，謝謝。接下來是臺灣大學的陳校長、臺灣海洋大學的許校長、陽明交通大學的林校長、高雄科技大學的楊校長、臺南藝術大學的邱校長、臺北藝術大學的陳校長、臺灣藝術大學的鐘校長，還有澎湖科技大學黃校長、高雄科技大學楊校長，海洋科技、臺灣科教、科學工藝、臺灣藝術教育場館館長。還有坐在後的臺灣體育運動大學許校長，國立體育大學邱校長及臺灣戲曲學院李校長。謝謝各位，為了節省時間……"],["主席：請開始，好嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主席。我先跟大家自我介紹，我在學校輩分很小，但是有很多系統性議題想向各位大學校長就教，也希望未來在推動層面上，能從臺灣整個高教系統去做思考。當然，我們還是維持大學自治與精神價值發展的大學精神。","我先簡單介紹一下，為什麼今天會這樣系統性來談這件事？我本身是臺灣原住民族，我是阿美族，我簡單講一下我的背景，但在我的背景後面有一些想法要跟大家討論。另外，我本身也是大學老師，我也在學校教書，只是我一回國是到私立學校教書，所以我長期不懂為什麼在一個社會裡會有公立大學、私立大學，然後從這樣品牌……我們那個年代是依照排序，所以我一直不太懂，為什麼會有這樣子的概念？因為我有我的選擇。","我本身也是個文化人，學藝術相關科系。我也在北高擔任過文化局長，所以我比較會從行政上去思考某些問題跟內容為什麼會導致怎麼樣的方向？","我自己有一些愛好，大部分都在水域，目前我一直有在比賽的是帆船。凡是水域活動，不管水上、水下，我大概都略有涉獵，但不是每一項都成功，只是略有涉獵。我今天想就這幾個面向與幾位大學教授就教。","今天前面是微觀層面，後面是巨觀層面，這個可能就要再麻煩教育部。","以微觀這部分來說，我想跟幾個大學教授談一下，這部分我直接先問臺政清交。不好意思，請教臺大校長，不知道我們有沒有機會在臺大設置仿ROTC，或者做ROTC這個program？我們知道從政大以降，有一百多個學校參與這個program，我相信這個program在各校有很多不同的狀況。既然各大學有ROTC這樣的系統，我想你們大概都知道，這其實是因應國防人才之所需而設，希望能夠達到更高並與世界接軌的訓練。其實原住民有很多人就處在這樣的體系下，但我要說的是，不僅在國防，我們希望原住民教育是不是有機會讓這類等級的學校去設計以原住民為主體的類ROTC概念課程，讓原住民有機會成為社會的中堅份子？","長期以來，社會對於原住民的概念，常常把我們當成傳統博物館看待，現在更往前推一點，就是活生生的博物館。但我們期待，哪一天原住民在社群可以成為中堅分子時，這樣的想法就會翻轉這個社會上所存在的、人類本質上不應該存在的現象跟問題。所以是不是請臺灣大學幫我們做一個思考？我知道很多學校都有參與，清大、交大可能有ROTC，可是就我剛才講的概念，希望我們能夠一起來探討好嗎？謝謝。","接下來一個議題是教育部負責的STEM專班，與高教司負責的原專班，而我剛才談到的幾位校長，你們學校都有這些專班，你們大概都知道原專班是怎麼run法。至於現在的STEM，其實跟過去的南向政策有些關係，不過現在是新形式─STEM，我想各位校長們都知道這幾個字的縮寫是什麼。我期待原專班是不是可以跳脫博物館概念，讓我們在現代社群、在現代社會的技術、工藝、科學都可以有一些角色？這不僅涉及教育部，上會期我們在討論過程當中，司長說可以來試辦。我自己也知道剛開始一定是萬事起頭難，但各校有沒有機會讓原住民可以有類STEM專班？因為STEM基本上是收國際學生，所以可不可以在原住民專班，或原民的班有STEM導向的課程？我們如果跟教育部講，他們會說這是高教司業務或技職司業務，所以我今天為什麼請幾位校長來交流、溝通？因為很多事情行政單位有行政本位，但以學術的內容與思考自由度來說，應該有機會達成，如果我們都彼此聽得懂這個內容性問題的話。不知道有設置原專班的學校跟試辦STEM的學校，是否可以讓我們有機會以STEM為導向來建構原住民班級，或讓原住民有機會隨班附讀？是不是可以請幾位校長也來思考？我想你們都知道原專班，畢竟你們自己的學校也有原專班。","接下來，本席是文化人，關心藝術導向這個層面，也就是所謂的表演藝術。在場的這幾所學校，其實不只我所列的這幾所，很多學校都有表演藝術相關科系，沒有叫到名字的學校也有可能有。我要說的是，在本土化導向的藝術高教裡，我相信現在許多大學都會接到很多計畫導向的案子，可能是USR、ESG或本土化等，很多這種東西。但在藝術導向的相關科系或學校，我想請教，以本土化導向的藝術高教來說，如何在與世界接軌的目標下取得平衡？這句話很簡單，卻關係到內容的專業性！","我們看一下，這是臺灣的歌仔戲，其實這並非只有臺灣專有；右邊則是我們原住民的樂舞，下面是西方樂器，另外一張是歌舞劇。我想請教，小提琴與鋼琴可以變成臺灣本土的樂器嗎？我先提出這問題。教育部或文化部如果有這類問題，找人作曲就好了，找人寫劇就好了，其實大家的技術，或者說我們學了某些技術型的表達後，只要有劇本、只要有曲目，以目前大家在談的本土性議題來說，其實我們已經被殖民了好久，譬如我們學的通通都是被殖民的藝術，所以這問題到底要怎麼來拆解跟探討？因此，所謂本土計畫型藝術高教，不管是哪些計畫，對於本來就是學這些技術型的專業者而言，是不是能找出真正的點來處理這些問題？這是簡單的一句話，但是後面其實有很多專業。","接下來，我要特別提醒戲曲學校，我沒有針對你們，但是請戲曲學校去瞭解歌仔戲的來由！當你們把歌仔戲框成本土戲曲時，會失去很大的市場！學校要run基金都已經這麼困難了，而我們其實還沒有談到整體性的問題，因為基金的量能跟學校品牌有關係，與教育部的補助也有關係。戲曲學校的經營已經很困難了，如果你們還要再把歌仔戲框成臺灣本土戲曲？這也會很困難，所以我在這邊做個別性的提醒，這也是我剛才講到微觀與巨觀的原因所在。","不好意思，我還是先回到藝術層面。我再提醒一個問題，有表演藝術相關系所的學校，我本身是一個原住民，原住民族委員會要成立國家原住民族樂舞團。我想請教一下各大專院校，特別是有表演藝術相關的學校與原住民族專班的學校，在國家原住民族樂舞團的平臺上，請問我們可以扮演什麼樣子的角色？我不希望這個樂舞團只是淪為一個園區的表演樂舞！如果是國家級的，不僅可以與世界各國接軌，有國際化程度也是應該的，至於人員來源應該就是各大專院校。所以請有原專班的學校，有原資中心的學校，還有有表演藝術科系的學校可以盤整一下，會後我都會一一去把它爬梳出來，這就是為什麼今天要請各大學的校長，跟大家先有一些對話的原因。","另外有海域、水域相關主題的學校，我知道有一些學校，包括臺大，這邊沒有被列到，但是臺大是這方面的翹楚，你們也有很多很不錯的學生在全世界的領域裡面，大家都不知道，但是他們是非常top的。這幾個學校，不論是走海洋科技、海洋運動、水域活動，請問我們如何去建構一個以海洋為導向的平臺，讓我們在非常top的科技跟我們非常有條件的海域、水域，包括河、溪、海，如何能夠走出一條路？這個是我一個提醒，當然也是我未來推動的重點。","最後我們進入到比較巨觀的層次，有這麼多大學校長在這邊，我不知道在大學裡面有多少學校有跟教育部相關的科技館所合作，像海洋科技博物館、海生館等等，有多少科技館所跟大學有一個結構性的合作平臺，比如說，大學生可以直接去戶外教學，或者是這些館所跟我們在大學的教育可以有一些連結。這個是教育部要思考，各大學你們也可以思考一下有沒有，但是我自己的班級經常會去這些館所，我一一都有去踏查過，但是我們都是自己規劃，因為在私立大學相對比較有點空間。","最後我看到了大學的基金，其實很多大學很困難，臺大我也跟你們有很多的……我通常都是自己會第一線去探尋實際的狀況，所以除了幾個學校以外，其實公司化治理導向的大學基金設置，如何維持大學的教育精神？我們現在有太多東西都在為職場，就是為國家的產業在準備，請問我們大學的精神在哪裡？我們是不是應該有獨立思考的能力，讓我們不會因為社會的困難、問題而擾動了我們？","最後，我提出一個解方，政府應該藉由校務基金的改進跟鬆綁，很多學校很困難，甚至調整國立大學的法律地位，使大學真正成為一個獨立自主經營的教育事業體，但是在邁向自主之前也要有相對應之準備，加強內部的管理，使自主與責任相符，提高大學的績效，達到大學教育的目標，要不然就全部公共化，要不然就接受公立大學、私立大學的自由競爭，這個是我給教育部的一個建言，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢，校長們請回，辛苦了。","下一位是陳秀寳委員質詢，陳秀寳委員質詢完，我們休息15分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基\n金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基\n金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金；三、審查114年度行政法人國\n家運動訓練中心預算案；四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00006"}}},{"id":"156895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156895","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bd30d9f6d34e6f4512a0d4a4306ab205f5ae72a34e051796ec1ddeb1cac72fbc55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:31:38 - 10:40:23","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:31:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:40:23+08:00","duration":525,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.860343750000002,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.72034375,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.04471875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.09534375,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.12909375,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.69846875,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.082218750000003,"end":27.452843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.12784375,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.65909375,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.39721875,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.21971875,"end":35.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.58659375,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.180968750000005,"end":42.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.16346875,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.369718750000004,"end":48.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.086593750000006,"end":50.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.46596875,"end":52.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.74846875,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.603468750000005,"end":63.008468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.008468750000006,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.430343750000006,"end":63.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.46409375,"end":64.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.35409375,"end":69.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.69096875000001,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.25596875000001,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.44971875,"end":74.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.52971875,"end":75.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.96846875,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.23846875000001,"end":76.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.74471875,"end":76.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.97659375,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.56659375000001,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.59596875000001,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.12284375,"end":87.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.81471875000001,"end":88.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.19784375,"end":94.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.28596875000001,"end":97.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.72034375000001,"end":98.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.65659375000001,"end":100.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.54659375,"end":104.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.52096875000001,"end":107.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.77784375,"end":109.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.15721875000001,"end":114.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.46846875000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.97034375000001,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.24346875,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.77909375,"end":129.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.47471875000002,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.26346875000002,"end":132.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.17471875,"end":133.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.86659375000002,"end":137.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.05159375,"end":139.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.89096875,"end":141.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.55721875,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.36721875,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.29096875000002,"end":148.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.53096875,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.33659375000002,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.99471875,"end":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flows你看美元大家都說它現在降息它會漲下來沒有想到你看它噗噗噗又跑上去了又那麼強你看看所有的幣幣對它都是貶值"},{"start":90.746,"end":93.609,"text":"這是一個挑戰第二、對經濟上關稅下去對全球的影響是怎麼樣因為台灣是以貿易為主的所以對全球貿易的衝擊是怎麼樣對台灣的貿易會怎麼樣"},{"start":114.847,"end":137.009,"text":"那這個是我們要因應對我們經濟的成長會怎麼樣對通膨的影響是怎麼樣這個我們要因應的好那總裁請教一下你看第一個就是講到這一個美元升值了美元變強了台幣來講相對就變弱了那最近從這個川普確定當選來之後台幣是不是一段一直在貶值"},{"start":138.761,"end":156.937,"text":"我們有這個表,有一個表給各位來看我看昨天也去扁到大概32點多了那有沒有觸及到您的這個32.5的楊金龍防線我想中央銀行沒有防線那有沒有底線不是有底線,因為第一個"},{"start":159.246,"end":161.608,"text":"但是我們貶值啊 我的12頁這邊啊你看看日圓貶了6.5%對 我們是很穩定的就台灣來講的話"},{"start":185.666,"end":187.792,"text":"這個總裁 這個請教一下 央行進場干預的條件"},{"start":191.083,"end":214.596,"text":"時機在哪裡?如果說供需的平衡就是供需它的差距太大會導致你的匯率的波動很大的時候中央銀行一定要進去因為匯率這個價格跟其他的商品的價格不太一樣的你看看我們的一般的商品台灣過後了以後它價格就下來了"},{"start":215.516,"end":238.557,"text":"這個不是喔,這個如果說你貶值你不是去做一個適當的調解的時候那川普當選還不像颱風嘛,颱風過了就沒有了,川普未來是當選會4年啊對嘛,所以這個說匯率就很怕他的預期是單向的所以呢央行的調解就是說必須要讓他不能有單向的預期"},{"start":240.258,"end":260.714,"text":"這個就是中央銀行的一個質詢所以就是說中央銀行每天要盯住盯住大概到什麼條件點的時候那當然我們這個我們自己會來做那個看不見的手會進去嗎還是看得見的手會進去對我們也不方便在這裡講說到哪裡的時候我們就會下去到哪裡的時候我們大概是哪些條件啊對啦那第一個我還是在講principle"},{"start":266.198,"end":291.292,"text":"公需決定第二個呢他如果說公需非常的失衡的時候呢中央銀行要進去那如果說貶值是一個大家普遍的一個現象的話那中央銀行應該也不必要太緊張吧因為大家都在貶啊那你也應該允許他調解啊因為匯率本身不只是說是你自己的還包括它是相對性的其他的都在貶那你要申嗎不可能嘛你也會隨著貶"},{"start":294.574,"end":308.947,"text":"因為特別是像現在美元強的時候其他幣別都弱美元弱的時候其他幣別都是強現在就有這種特色那您預設就是說接下來美元還是會持續在走強嗎到目前為止是這樣子但是我也跟委員報告匯率這個價格是很難去prediction的"},{"start":317.955,"end":332.3,"text":"他是很難去,所以這個就是說為什麼中央銀行要必須要每天我們都是要必須要關注他他的供需還有的capital flows這個就是說為什麼我們要時常盯住他的意思那你認為這個未來這四年內這個川普的這個貨幣政策是不是會持續採取比較寬鬆的這個方式"},{"start":343.115,"end":358.625,"text":"原先的預期就是說費德他是認為就是說今年會調整4次調降4次明年4次後年會2次但是川普一上來的時候恐怕他這個步調恐怕就會改變"},{"start":361.187,"end":373.981,"text":"所以這個改變我跟委員報告就是說這個改變FED現在目前他也不曉得說他要怎麼來改變他唯一能夠做的呢Data dependent"},{"start":374.522,"end":388.659,"text":"也就是說第一個他看他的那個什麼他美國的一個經濟的指標CPI還有就是說勞動市場的情況是怎麼樣這個是第一個第二個呢他也要關注就是說川普他"},{"start":389.48,"end":408.321,"text":"他的這個關稅政策他的一個budget的他的財政政策這些呢是什麼時候出場第二個呢他的規模是怎麼樣那他如果說知道一步一步知道的時候呢他就會把這些的數據呢把他用在那這個是FED的預測嗎那"},{"start":410.023,"end":429.323,"text":"我們的預測我們大概也是會朝這樣一個方向就是說因為我們現在也不曉得啊我們也不曉得說總裁不能說不曉得啊大家都在看你欸因為說不曉得說他只有政見那政見什麼時候實施他的規模是怎麼樣你要預測他當選就職之後明年1月20號就會開始實施了"},{"start":434.937,"end":445.384,"text":"所以我就說我們在報告裡面講我們每一季我們每一個季每一季我們都會做修訂我用4年前總裁曾經說過的話有兩句話因為那時候是台灣也被列入匯率的觀察名單兩句話我其實現在4年之後再來檢視我覺得還是有用那我請教教這個總裁在4年前12月17號"},{"start":459.853,"end":475.026,"text":"那時候我們被列入匯率的操縱觀察名單你講了兩句話我認為現在再來請教第一個,台灣被列入匯率觀察名單是因為川普第二個,美國寬鬆的貨幣政策就是我們的挑戰四年後再來檢視這兩句話"},{"start":479.189,"end":493.723,"text":"現在反而是不一定是寬鬆那時候是寬鬆的話是我們的挑戰沒有錯現在是反而是他的貨幣政策的一個不確定性是我們的挑戰"},{"start":494.824,"end":518.44,"text":"所以你認為他的貨幣政策是不確定性不一定是採寬鬆的貨幣政策對是寬鬆或是緊縮呢這個到目前為止都是一個很不確定性的一個情況那這個是我們的挑戰所以呢我們在這個的在這個報告裡面我們有列出三個第一個第三個的衝擊就是說費的他的一個貨幣政策的不確定性是會衝擊到我們"},{"start":520.562,"end":528.789,"text":"對,如果我看到三大衝擊但是其實危機有時候常常也是轉機我看今天大家都在講衝擊那對我們來講川普再度當選總統除了對你來講衝擊跟挑戰你有沒有什麼轉機的地方?"},{"start":535.048,"end":546.116,"text":"我覺得就是說只要大家第一個就是說大家要密切注意它然後對於川普的政策還有美國貨幣政策我們要如何去adapt去調整而且我們的調整要能夠就是說我們能夠順勢的而為而不是逆勢而為順勢的"},{"start":556.644,"end":585.61,"text":"那這樣的話呢所以呢為什麼我們在第一個part我們在第一個part我們在第一個部分裡面就談到了就是說川普那個時候的美中貿易衝突呢台灣呢反而是反而是加分的受益是受益的接下來也是啊接下來川普的團隊都是屬於這個抗中保台的團隊啊所以接下來是不是會像四年前這個美中貿易戰一樣台灣有一樣在這個地方在經濟上面也會在得利"},{"start":586.972,"end":611.701,"text":"我們報告也有提到就是說以前啊川普的這個貿易政策呢我們是轉單效應的我們是轉單啊我們獲益啊但現在呢我們這個轉單的效益是不是還能夠持續還是是不是就像以前那樣的強那這個我們要關注但是我們也不能保證就是說就是一定是這樣子的那如果說是這樣的話那你就要但關稅對於我們的影響勒"},{"start":613.962,"end":619.767,"text":"關稅的影響這個我也不敢說了為什麼為什麼因為我還是一直在強調就是說"},{"start":621.394,"end":641.727,"text":"這個我們輸出到美國的這個商品是他們所需要的而且這都是戰略的商品是那這個呢是誰要來付費是我們的出口商呢或是他們的消費者呢這個都很難說所以就是說如果真的要對台灣的這個貨物採取這個關稅加關稅的話那你覺得對於這個台灣的企業的影響比較多還是對於美國來講影響比較多"},{"start":649.638,"end":674.989,"text":"這個我要做比較詳細一點的study才知道就現在大家最關心的就是半導體啊不過我是還是在講就是說第一個part那個是很好的一個example是一個很好的例子可以讓我們來稍微來注意一下事實上呢我總覺得我們還是獲利的啊我們還是獲利的那我們當然是擔心啊不過呢我總覺得我們也不必要太悲觀"},{"start":675.589,"end":690.458,"text":"所以對於這個川普再度當選總統總裁認為是有挑戰但有信心是對有信心而且我們要就是說很謹慎的去因應好OK好謝謝總裁好謝謝昆城接著請王洪威委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":678,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時27分）謝謝主席，我們請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：是，請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好。大家都在關心川普再度當選總統之後對於臺灣經貿的影響，本席想請教一下總裁，當你知道川普確定當選總統之後，你那時候心情的感受是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我的感受就是更有一種挑戰，畢竟大家剛剛也在講，川普是商人性格，也就是說他的政策，有時候雖然他也是講了一些政見出來，但是他比較不容易去prediction（預測），不能預測、不容易預測本身就是一個uncertainty，就金融市場來講，uncertainty就是一個大問題，所以也就會覺得這是一個挑戰。"],["李委員坤城：對於總裁來講，央行的挑戰在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我們央行的挑戰就是外匯市場，它本身就是一個很大的挑戰，因為capital flows真的不小，你看美元，大家都說要降息、會弱下來，沒有想到它又「噗、噗、噗」跑上去了，又那麼強。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：你看看所有的幣別對它都是貶值，capital outflows就是一個挑戰。"],["李委員坤城：好。"],["楊總裁金龍：第二個，經濟上它的關稅下去的話，對整個全球的影響是怎麼樣？因為臺灣是以貿易為主，所以它對於貿易的衝擊，對全球貿易的衝擊是怎麼樣？對臺灣的貿易會怎麼樣？這個是我們要因應的。對我們經濟的成長會怎麼樣？對通膨的影響是怎麼樣？這也是我們要因應的。"],["李委員坤城：好，總裁請教一下，你剛才第一個講到的是美元升值，美元變強了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：對臺幣來講，相對就變弱了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：最近從川普確定當選之後，臺幣是不是一直在貶值？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們有一個表給各位參考。"],["李委員坤城：我看昨天也繼續貶，貶到大概三十二點多了嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有觸及到您32.5的楊金龍防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想中央銀行沒有防線……"],["李委員坤城：沒有防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有防線。"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有底線？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是底線，第一個，因為匯率是供需決定，這是第一個。"],["李委員坤城：我知道，現在討論的就是……"],["楊總裁金龍：第二個，因為匯率本身……"],["李委員坤城：川普當選之後，看起來美元是強，臺幣相對是弱勢，臺幣最近也不斷在貶值，所以我想請教一下……"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我們貶值……看第12頁，日圓貶了六成……"],["李委員坤城：其他國家也貶，我們相對是小，我有看你的報告。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，我們是小，我們是很穩定的。"],["李委員坤城：就臺灣來講，請教一下總裁，央行進場干預的條件和時機在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果說供需的平衡，供需的差距太大會導致匯率波動很大的時候，中央銀行一定要進去，因為匯率的價格跟其他商品價格不大一樣，你看看我們的一般商品，颱風過了以後，它價格就下來了，但這個不是喔，這如果貶值，你不去做一個適當的調節，它會一直上去喔。"],["李委員坤城：川普當選不像颱風，颱風過了就沒有了，川普當選是未來4年啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：這個時候就很怕匯率的預期是單向的，央行的調節必須要讓它不能有單向的預期，這個就是中央銀行的職責，所以中央銀行每天要盯住capital flows。"],["李委員坤城：大概到什麼條件點的時候，你們會進去干預？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我們自己會來做……"],["李委員坤城：看不見的手會進去嗎？還是看得見的手會進去？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也不方便在這裡講到哪裡我們就會下去，到哪裡的時候我們就要出來。"],["李委員坤城：大概是哪些條件？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個我還是講principle，供需決定；第二個，如果供需非常失衡的時候，中央銀行要進去，如果說貶值是一個普遍的現象，中央銀行應該也不必要太緊張吧，因為大家都在貶啊，那也應該允許它調節，因為匯率本身不只是自己的，它是相對性的，其他的都在貶，那你要升嗎？不可能嘛！你也會隨著貶。特別是像現在，美元強的時候，其他幣別都是弱，美元弱的時候，其他幣別都是強，現在就有這種特色。"],["李委員坤城：那您預測嘛，您預測接下來美元都還是會持續走強嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止是這樣子，但是我也跟委員報告，匯率的價格是很難去prediction的，所以為什麼中央銀行必須要每天關注它的供需還有capital flows，這就是我們為什麼要時常盯住它的意思。"],["李委員坤城：我再就教總裁，您認為未來這4年內，川普的貨幣政策是不是會持續採取比較寬鬆的方式？"],["楊總裁金龍：原先的預期，Fed認為今年會調整4次，調降4次、明年4次、後年2次，但是川普一上來的時候，恐怕這個步調就會改變。我跟委員報告，關於這個改變，Fed目前也不曉得要怎麼來改變，它唯一能夠做的data dependent，也就是它第一個看美國的經濟指標CPI，還有勞動市場的情況是怎麼樣，這個第一個；第二個，它也要關注川普的關稅政策，他的budget、他的財政政策，這些是什麼時候出場；再者，他的規模是怎麼樣，那它如果一步一步知道時，它就會把這些數據用在……"],["李委員坤城：這個是Fed的預測，那我們央行的預測呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的預測大概也是會朝這樣的一個方向，因為我們現在也不曉得，我們也不曉得說……"],["李委員坤城：總裁不能說不曉得啊，大家都在看你耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：因為他只有政見，那政見什麼時候實施，他的規模是怎麼樣……"],["李委員坤城：你要預測他當選就職之後，明年1月20號就會開始實施了。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我在報告裡面講了，我們每一季都會做修訂。"],["李委員坤城：我用4年前總裁曾經說過的話，有兩句話，因為那時候臺灣也被列入匯率的觀察名單，有兩句話，其實4年之後的現在再來檢視，我覺得還是有用。我請教一下總裁，在4年前的12月17號，那時候我們被列入匯率的操縱觀察名單，你講了兩句話，我現在再來請教，第一個，臺灣被列入匯率觀察名單是因為川普。第二個，美國的寬鬆貨幣政策就是我們的挑戰。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：現在4年後再來檢視這兩句話呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在反而不一定是寬鬆，那時候寬鬆是我們的挑戰沒有錯，現在反而他貨幣政策的不確定性是我們的挑戰。"],["李委員坤城：所以你認為他的貨幣政策有不確定性？不一定是採寬鬆的貨幣政策？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，是寬鬆或是緊縮呢？這個到目前為止都是很不確定性的情況，這是我們的挑戰，所以我們在報告裡面有列出三個，第三個的衝擊就是Fed貨幣政策的不確定性會衝擊到我們。"],["李委員坤城：對，我有看到三大衝擊，但是其實危機有時候常常也是轉機。"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然啦！沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：我看今天大家都在講衝擊，對我們來講，川普再度當選總統，就你來看，除了衝擊跟挑戰，有沒有什麼轉機的地方？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得第一個，大家要密切注意他，對於川普的政策還有美國貨幣政策，我們要如何去adapt、去調整？而且我們的調整要能夠順勢而為，而不是逆勢而為，所以為什麼我們在第一個部分裡面就談到了，川普那個時候的美中貿易衝突，對臺灣反而是加分的。"],["李委員坤城：受益。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，是受益的。"],["李委員坤城：接下來也是！我看接下來川普團隊都是屬於抗中保臺的團隊，所以接下來是不是會像4年前的美中貿易戰一樣，臺灣也一樣在這個地方、在經濟上面也會再得利？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們報告也有提到，以前川普的貿易政策，我們是轉單效應，我們是轉單、我們獲益，但是現在我們轉單的效益是不是還能夠持續，是不是就像以前那樣的強？這個我們要關注，我們也不能保證一定是這樣子的，如果是這樣，那你就……"],["李委員坤城：但是關稅對於我們的影響呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：關稅的影響我也不敢說，為什麼？因為我還是一直在強調，我們輸出到美國的商品是他們所需要的，而且這都是戰略的商品……"],["李委員坤城：是，半導體。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個是誰要來付費，是我們的出口商，或是他們的消費者呢？這個都很難說。"],["李委員坤城：所以如果真的要對臺灣的貨物加關稅，你覺得對臺灣的企業影響比較多，還是對美國來講，影響比較多？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個要做比較詳細一點的study才知道，我也沒辦法很直覺的……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，現在大家最關心的就是半導體。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我還是在講，第一個part，那是一個很好的例子，可以讓我們稍微來注意一下，事實上我總覺得我們還是獲益的、我們還是獲利的，我們當然是擔心，不過我總覺得我們也不必太悲觀。"],["李委員坤城：所以對於川普再度當選總統，總裁雖然認為有挑戰，但也有信心？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，有信心，而且我們要很謹慎去因應。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝李坤城委員。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bd3b7817713d8d27ca754e2511c44c3ef5ae72a34e051796e941388ba911f71655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:23:24 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那我們有請蔡局長"},{"start":12.537,"end":33.382,"text":"今天我們主要是針對這個公開部分的國安局的預算書那我看了一下在我們113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表裡面呢第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用的部分那包含是呢大家都認為就是當時有一個這個附帶決議寫到"},{"start":37.723,"end":63.199,"text":"美國國安局國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展美國也在國防部112年的8月成立了AI工作小組用來包含國防科技發展國家維護等等當時就希望你們三個月內提出向立法院外交委員會國防委員會的報告"},{"start":65.82,"end":90.019,"text":"那你們也寫了一些辦理的情形那中間呢也提到了就是說在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安國安局要招募反制人才可是我們在你們今年的這個預算書公開部分裡面那相關的只有看到了這個其他網路空間工房培訓場域統裁演習管理軟體維護等經費1100萬而已"},{"start":93.021,"end":119.384,"text":"那我想問一下就是說在今年的明年的114年的預算有關於去年大家提的附帶決議就是這個所謂的AI中心等等相關的一些預算來說的話那為什麼沒有在裡面有做相關的提供有就那個AI部分也是這一兩年來我們的一個建置能量的一個主要的重點那文剛有提到一方面是在人才的培訓的部分"},{"start":120.024,"end":147.025,"text":"第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們的勤工作業的部分那這部分我們內部有成立不同的單位都有不同的AI小組那也鼓勵不同單位AI小組可以進行經驗的分享那請問這些AI小組那他們研究過後對於實際在台灣那有了這些AI的假訊息他們有什麼樣的功能以及我們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題"},{"start":148.627,"end":164.344,"text":"這部分我們在AI的應用上一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的延期因為AI的作業速度會比較快那它可以幫我們做一些初步的分析那人員的運用上就可以比較人力精簡這是第一部分那第二部分是在AI的技術或系統的應用"},{"start":165.225,"end":182.653,"text":"那跟委員也比較關注到了很多網路上的一些AI的假訊息的傳散那我們運用新的數據的技術可以去了解到這些假的AI的帳號他是怎麼生成的那他又用哪些的不斷產製的AI的文字不斷的透過異常帳號來傳散那整個網路的運作透過我們AI系統倒是可以掌握到全貌"},{"start":187.435,"end":201.647,"text":"那掌握到之後後續的處理是交由其他哪一個單位去做處置或者是國安局要怎麼樣去跟其他的單位做相關的聯合那這個部分我們的銜接到底做得好還是不好那這部分大概分兩個層面來看一個部分假如說那個AI的傳善他有涉及到違法"},{"start":206.03,"end":231.356,"text":"那這個部分我們會依請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦第二部分假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平台它本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話我們會很積極的來跟社群平台做檢舉讓社群平台可以把它下架那第三個部分是假如它AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的那我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息快速澄清"},{"start":231.756,"end":247.712,"text":"但是局長就如您剛說的因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多我們先放一下影片給大家看這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜他就被放出說一個影片大概可以看一下"},{"start":248.232,"end":265.24,"text":"我先講這是假訊息他並沒有做這樣的發言可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面但他講的話跟底下的字幕還有他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音但是他底下他從來沒有講過這個話"},{"start":267.361,"end":287.997,"text":"然後呢這個影音呢就在包含是Line上面網路上面很快速的轉傳這個呢高委員他自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事的可是他的轉傳速度仍然是非常快而且這一兩週以來不只這一件還有好幾件那呢他對於這個當事人來說是造成第一個一種傷害"},{"start":289.218,"end":304.666,"text":"第二因為這個AI做得非常像你就算對口型也對不太出來所以我們有很多的民眾他是在一個誤會之下才去做轉傳的他並沒有惡意但他真的相信這個高委員他有說過這些話所以他們轉傳之後有可能從受害者變成加害者也就是說高委員他可能會試圖想要他當然沒有但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉"},{"start":317.193,"end":324.761,"text":"可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的這個影片所以我們想要問的是針對這一兩週以來的類似這樣的攻擊您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI的身為攻擊那國安局又要用什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在台灣"},{"start":338.775,"end":356.244,"text":"對,這個影片我們有在網路上注意到那似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片那在進行後製來並跟他講話的內容那這是第一部分的說明那第二部分是我們有注意到他傳善了管道一個部分是委員提到的LINE的"},{"start":356.744,"end":360.466,"text":"國安局具體的做法我們能夠怎麼做我比較想知道要怎麼做因為這些管道我都清楚但我要知道的是國安局具體的做法"},{"start":383.58,"end":409.918,"text":"對那這部分我們在掌握相關的狀況的話剛有說明到網絡的傳扇的一個管道這是我們的責任要來確認的那假如說他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話那當然我們也會尊重當事人他是不是有一些法律的作為那到我們的相關的司法檢查機關或國安單位我們是有相關的系統可以來辨識證明說他的影音是偽製的"},{"start":410.838,"end":431.89,"text":"這部分到時候在法律的公防或偵辦的過程當中就不斷的確定不平的刑法。可是這樣的話呢不是啊因為局長這樣的話他比如說好那我假設我是高委員那我去因為有人傳散這個那我去走入司法去提告可是這些民眾他們也不是惡意的他們也是相信了這些所謂他不知道他無法去辨認這個身為那他會從受害者變成加害者那這方面我們國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷的傳散"},{"start":439.795,"end":456.532,"text":"我們包含是在預算裡面我們的編列還有其實這個過去我特別講我們113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了那請問這附帶決議我們處理的如何在去年一整年乃至於明年來說我們要怎麼樣的去做規劃抑制這類事情的發生"},{"start":456.932,"end":483.569,"text":"這是剛剛在書面口頭報告的時候提到未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對台認知作戰滲透作為的揭露而會是本局一個重要工作不過要特別謝謝委員可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來因為這個也是一個社會照應社會提出的過程我建議你們要有一個公開的平台不管是以國安局為主或者是跟其他的單位共同的來協作並不一定要國安局作為主要的這個"},{"start":485.17,"end":485.53,"text":"對對沒有錯對應該的"},{"start":502.807,"end":523.767,"text":"好不好那就麻煩我們局長後續針對這個部分再做一些研究因為這兩週以來不只這一支影片非常多在網路上轉傳的這個狀況那我們自己有時候都分不太清楚是真是假所以要請國安局在這部分AI的身為在進行進一步的精進謝謝謝委員在公開場合提出這個問題提醒大家來注意謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時23分）謝謝主席，我們有請蔡局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天我們主要是針對國安局預算書公開的部分，我看了一下在113年度立法院審議中央總預算的決議跟附帶決議裡面的執行情形報告表第26項裡面提到了AI技術的運用部分，當時有一個附帶決議寫到，美國國安局、國防部都成立了AI發展的安全中心，來監督國家安全系統裡面的AI整合發展，美國國防部也在112年8月成立了AI工作小組，用在包含國防科技發展、國家維護等等，當時就希望你們三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出報告。你們也寫了一些辦理的情形，在2023年11月26號的時候說人工智慧威脅國安，國安局要招募反制人才，可是我們在你們今年預算書的公開部分裡面，相關的只有看到了其他網路空間攻防培訓場域統裁、演習管理、軟體維護等經費1,100萬而已。我想問一下，在明年（114年）的預算，有關於去年大家提的附帶決議，就是所謂AI中心等等相關的一些預算，為什麼沒有在裡面做相關的提供？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，就AI的部分，也是這一、兩年來我們建置能量的一個主要重點，委員剛剛有提到，一方面是在人才培訓的部分，第二部分是在AI技術實際應用到我們情工作業的部分，這部分我們內部有成立，不同的單位都有不同的AI小組，也鼓勵不同單位的AI小組可以進行橫向的經驗分享。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這些AI小組研究過後，對於實際在臺灣有了這些AI的假訊息，他們有什麼樣的功能？以及你們編列了多少相關的預算來因應這樣子的一個國安問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：關於這個部分我們在AI的應用上，一個部分會應用到我們內部龐大資料庫的研析，因為AI的作業速度會比較快，它可以幫我們做一些初步的分析，人員的運用上就可以比較人力精簡，這是第一部分。第二部分是在AI的技術或系統的應用，可能委員也比較關注到很多網路上一些AI假訊息的傳散，我們運用新的數據技術，可以去了解到這些假的AI帳號是怎麼生成的，它又用哪些不斷產製的AI文字，不斷地透過異常帳號來傳散，整個網路運作透過我們AI系統倒是可以掌握到全貌。"],["徐委員巧芯：掌握到之後，後續的處理是交由其他哪一個單位去做處置？或者是國安局要怎麼樣去跟其他的單位做相關的連合？這個部分你們的銜接到底做得好還是不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分大概分兩個層面來看，第一個部分，假如AI的傳散有涉及到違法，這個部分我們會移請相關的司法警察機關來偵辦。第二個部分，假如AI的傳散是違反到社群平臺本身內部管理的機制跟規範的話，我們會很積極地跟社群平臺做檢舉，讓社群平臺可以把它下架。第三個部分，假如AI的傳散是需要政府單位來做即時澄清的，我們有一個通報的機制讓政府各單位來做這部分訊息的快速澄清。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是局長，就如您剛剛說的，因為AI的傳散可以說是非常快的，所以最近大概這一個多禮拜之間就出現了很多，我們先放一下影片給大家看，這是民進黨前立委高嘉瑜，他就被放出一個影片，大家可以看一下。我要先講，這是假訊息，他並沒有做這樣的發言，可是他的背景看起來就是在某一個政論節目裡面，但他講的話、底下的字幕以及他講出來的聲音確實非常像高委員的聲音，但是他私下從來沒有講過這個話，然後這個影音就在LINE上面、網路上面很快速地轉傳。高委員自己也有在臉書澄清過這件事了，可是它的轉傳速度仍然是非常快，而且這一、兩週以來不只這一件，還有好幾件，對於當事人來說，第一個，是造成一種傷害；第二個，因為這個AI做得非常像，就算對口型也對不太出來，所以有很多民眾是在誤會之下才去做轉傳的，他並沒有惡意，但他真的相信高委員有說過這些話，所以他們轉傳之後，有可能從受害者變成加害者。也就是說，高委員可能會試圖想要……他當然沒有，但他可以對於這些轉傳者去提告或要求對方道歉，可是其實轉傳的人也沒有惡意，因為他是真的相信了這個AI所傳的影片。","所以我們想要問的是，針對這一、兩週以來類似這樣的攻擊，您覺得算不算是一種所謂的AI深偽攻擊？國安局又有什麼樣的辦法來抑制這樣子的事情持續發生在臺灣？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個影片我們有在網路上注意到，似乎是擷取了高委員在今年1月24號參加政論節目的影片，再進行後製來變更他講話的內容，這是第一部分的說明。第二部分，我們有注意到傳散的管道，一個部分是委員提到LINE封閉群組裡面快速的傳散；另一部分，我們也注意到在TikTok上面有一些異常帳號也不斷地在進行傳散，而且這些異常帳號背後的IP位置不斷地在變換更動，這代表比較像是專業、有系統、有組織地在傳散這樣的影片。第三……"],["徐委員巧芯：那國安局具體的作法能夠怎麼做？我比較想知道要怎麼做，因為這些管道我都清楚，但我要知道的是國安局具體的作法。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們在掌握相關的狀況部分，剛才有說明到，網絡傳散的管道是我們有責任要來確認的，假如他有涉及到違法或傷害到影片當事人的權益的話，當然我們也會尊重當事人是不是有一些法律的作為，我們相關的司法警察機關或國安單位是有相關的系統可以來辨識，證明他的影音是偽製的，這個部分到時候在法律的攻防或偵辦的過程當中，就……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是這樣的話，局長，比如假設我是高委員，因為有人傳散這個，而我走入司法去提告了，可是這些民眾也不是惡意的，他們也是相信了這些……他不知道、他無法去辨認深偽，他會從受害者變成加害者，這方面國安局要怎麼樣來面對這種假訊息在網路上不斷地傳散？包含在預算裡面的編列，還有其實這個在過去……我特別講我們在113年的時候就有相關的附帶決議了，請問這附帶決議你們處理得如何？在去年一整年，乃至於明年來說，你們要怎麼樣做規劃去抑制這類事情的發生？"],["蔡局長明彥：這也是剛剛在口頭報告的時候有提到，未來加強在公關還有針對一些相關的中共對臺認知作戰滲透作為的揭露會是本局一個重要的工作。不過也要特別謝謝委員，可以利用這個機會把這個問題提出來……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，因為……"],["蔡局長明彥：因為這個也是一個社會教育、社會提醒的過程。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我建議你們要有一個公開的平臺，不管是以國安局為主，或者是跟其他的單位共同來協作，並不一定要由國安局作為主要的公開單位……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，沒有錯。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們可以跟其他的部會，比如數位發展部來協助，但是至少要有一個平臺去說明有哪一些是Deepfake假訊息，讓大家能夠有所蹤，而不是變成受害者轉為加害者這樣的情形，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的，好。"],["徐委員巧芯：那就麻煩局長後續針對這個部分再做一些研究，因為這兩週以來不只這一支影片，非常多在網路上轉傳的狀況，我們自己有時候都分不太清楚是真是假，所以要請國安局在AI的深偽部分再進行進一步的精進，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來努力，也謝謝委員在公開場合提出這個問題，提醒大家來注意，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。局長，徐委員剛才質詢這個題目很重要、很好，因為任何人都有可能成為受害者，這跟黨派無關，任何人都有可能被偽造，國家元首可能被偽造而下達錯誤的指令，天災的時候可能被偽造。所以針對剛才徐委員提出來的，我希望看到國安局的處理不是研究辦理，如果確定是偽造的，就像美國那個講的，要先辨識完，你要有delete的能力，你不應該讓錯誤的東西持續傷害任何人，那個人不管是誰，他只要是被偽造的，我們應該要有個機制，要讓他從網路上……這個錯誤的東西不能再散播，否則到時再拿掉就太慢了。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！而且……"],["主席：這個給你做參考。"],["徐委員巧芯：受害者會變成加害者，轉傳的人……"],["主席：我們委員會也許可以提個案子，要求你們要正視新科技帶來的危害，這是對個人、對國家安全整個都會有影響，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：下禮拜就有一個專報是要講這個。"],["主席：對，所以請注意，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答，請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-13","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","黃仁","馬文君","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","陳永康","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄【含秘密會議】","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00002"}}},{"id":"156892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156892","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bd8f377351c52ccb86b270dce3daca9a75ae72a34e051796e5fb1052951097e895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:22:41 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text":"運動部成立我支持啊。好事啊。可是按照中央行政機關組織法規定的部的總數是幾個?14。所以現在用滿了對不對?所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織法增加一個部嘛。對不對?但其實有另外一個做法啊。另外一個做法是什麼?如果不調整總和的另外一個做法是什麼?"},{"start":83.851,"end":100.007,"text":"就是去調整某些部把他併就撤銷一些部嘛廢掉一些部嘛如果是採第二種方式我想請問吼要廢掉教育部嗎還是要廢掉經濟部還是要廢掉財政部還是要廢掉文化部你為什麼不是採取所謂的廢其他的部來爭運動部的方式為什麼"},{"start":107.745,"end":130.893,"text":"因為我們有評估過了這個有期執行上的一個困難當然困難嘛根本不可能的事情嘛你今天把原來的部會廢掉他原來部會業務怎麼辦你光移撥的過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響變動的成本極大所以不可能是廢部成部啦不是嗎沒錯吧"},{"start":133.939,"end":140.367,"text":"當然啊!我也認為不可能啊!很抱歉喔!這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦!請問你喔!新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼?"},{"start":153.601,"end":176.932,"text":"七月十二號通過之後,我們會成立專責的三級機關。是啊,要成立專責三級機關。請問成立專責三級機關,我們現在中央行政組織機制人把我們的第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數的上限是多少?七十。七十個,又買了嗎?目前買了。買了啊?來來來,你們打算怎麼做?"},{"start":178.325,"end":193.753,"text":"我直接講啦 剛剛巡導已經講了啦這基本上齁是同步在進行啦第一個就是內政部移民署他有成立一個新住民的一個籌備處籌備處你都能講內政部成立一個運動部籌備處然後不要改部會上線"},{"start":195.37,"end":211.305,"text":"我直接問你嘛。你剛已經回答了啊。你沒打算打破這70個上限啊。不是嗎?是。對啊。那我想請問你。你不打算打破這70個上限。請問你告訴我。要廢掉哪個部?哪個署?哪個司?哪個局?要廢掉哪個三級機關?"},{"start":213.035,"end":241.569,"text":"報告委員我們內部有在評估現在因為還在評估階段所以這個...你的評估跟我講你不動上限嘛我不是...不動上限這是原則所以因為不動上限所以我們...因為不動上限你就非得撤掉一個啊不然就併掉一個啊不是嗎這個就是我們內部...我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡人事長我說真的今天真的在叫你在那邊為難你啦今天主席今天說真的邀的人也都不對啦"},{"start":243.2,"end":248.744,"text":"為什麼沒辦法?你今天裁掉任何三級機關,他的三級機關的業務就有要移波的問題。那你光研議你要裁掉哪個三級機關,就像你剛剛講的,你在籌備處兩三年你都研議不出來啦。你光研議要裁掉哪個所謂的籌備機關,你就這樣把這事情擱著啦。"},{"start":270.199,"end":270.84,"text":"五（委員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":292.279,"end":315.601,"text":"很好啊!非常好啊!就是我幫你翻白話,就你前面的白話文。可能遇到我在稍微謹慎一點,你就文言文。你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹啊。我跟你講,我沒有反對這個原則哦。因為這實際上也是我最大的困惑。因為我以前也在政府機關工作過。當時民進黨說啊,這政府這個機關太多,要裁撤精簡政府啊。"},{"start":316.534,"end":327.408,"text":"政府還真的繼續做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在沒有民進黨少爺不得了啊。這個機關成立那個機關成立一大堆。但有的有具要成立我贊成。可是我今天就跟你講標準的問題嘛。"},{"start":329.69,"end":345.345,"text":"你今天擺明非常鮮活的例子又在現在的狀況,你對運動部你就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、緣合不應膨脹的標準存在啊。我就問你嘛,現在的那個運動發展署,緣合你剛剛講過135人嘛,對不對?然後變成體育部分年階段要增加到400人嘛,對不對?"},{"start":353.257,"end":374.586,"text":"對阿 四百人阿 橫空就增加兩百多人阿 預算就兩百億嘛 那我就跟你講你今天為什麼今天說違反了你剛剛講預算不要膨脹 人額不要膨脹的原因是因為運動不重要嘛 我接受這個論點啦 我接受阿可是同樣的狀況你就跟我講新住民就不重要阿 不是嗎 一模一樣的邏輯"},{"start":377.318,"end":404.626,"text":"我跟你講你沒有講過新住民不重要但你的做法跟民進黨政府的做法就告訴你新住民不重要這不是你講的文字上的問題那我再跟你講剛剛我也看到在尋答的過程當中我也看到新聞啊說這個賴清德總統賴清德總統這個要這個延緩所謂的這個新住民發展署你剛剛否認嘛賴清德總統沒有這個要求嘛對不對 沒有沒有"},{"start":405.56,"end":412.77,"text":"可是我要講的說即便他沒這個要求你們的做法也蠻像今天耐心的總有這個要求啊"},{"start":414.073,"end":442.827,"text":"我只問你一件事嘛請問新住民發展署什麼時候會成立你覺得需要多久時間在不動你的所謂機關上線情況之下我剛才已經在黃國昌委員執行裡面有答應了我們會行文給內政部請內政部加速我告訴你我就是要跟你講這個問題你答不出時間然後你跟他行文內政部來來來這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方啦今天單位有內政部嗎"},{"start":444.625,"end":446.407,"text":"我連要問內政部今天都沒辦法問啦。我想請問內政部跟你在那邊當場協調都沒辦法。有問內政部嗎?有沒有?"},{"start":453.936,"end":480.775,"text":"今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法還有今天還有今天我們賣玉珍我們民眾黨的案子在裡面欸有涉及新住民的問題在裡面欸行政院秘書長不到內政部也不來我今天說你們瞧不起新住民對不起新住民到底哪一點說錯了完全沒說錯啊你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民啊"},{"start":481.795,"end":495.786,"text":"我還是跟人事長講你在這個地方我必須先說一句話人事長本來就是在你的機關本位你就要守住預算的原額編制你就是不希望政府膨脹這是你的本分沒錯啦所以我沒有怪你"},{"start":496.843,"end":525.762,"text":"但今天光你在這邊當箭靶子我就覺得就是對新住民非常的不尊重因為很多問題你還得行文內政部去回答你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清清楚我還是說一句話啦今天最快的方式真的表達對新住民的支持認同的話你就比照運動部運動部是增加一個部會他是增加一個三級機關層次還是差很多如果一個部會重要可以增加預算緣和可以擴大倍增"},{"start":527.279,"end":536.174,"text":"為什麼新住民發展署也有三級機關為什麼今天你要卡東卡西到現在也講不出來你的籌備書要籌備十年嗎以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時22分）主席，有請人事長。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：有請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：人事長，我看了你的報告，也聽了剛剛的詢答，我直接作個結論：我覺得民進黨對不起也瞧不起新住民！禁伐補償條例拖拖拉拉，民進黨在欺負原住民；新住民發展署也拖拖拉拉，在欺負新住民，何其傲慢的政府！我先來講第一件事，為什麼我說你們在欺負新住民？現在政府要成立運動部，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：運動部成立，我支持啊！好事啊！可是按照中央行政機關組織基準法的規定，部的總數是幾個？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：14個。"],["羅委員智強：14個嘛！所以現在用滿了，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以我們就要修改中央行政機關組織基準法，增加一個部嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，14變15。"],["羅委員智強：但其實有另外一個作法，另外一個作法是什麼？如果不調整總額的另外一個作法是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是調整某些部，把它併……"],["羅委員智強：就是撤銷一些部、廢掉一些部嘛！如果是採第二種方式，我想請問，要廢掉教育部嗎？還是要廢掉經濟部？還是要廢掉財政部？還是要廢掉文化部？你為什麼不是採取廢其他部來增運動部的方式，為什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為我們有評估過，這個有其執行上的困難。"],["羅委員智強：當然困難，根本不可能的事情嘛！你今天把原來的部會廢掉，原來部會的業務要怎麼辦？你光移撥過程的複雜度還有相關機關受到的影響，變動的成本極大，所以不可能是廢部成部啦！不是嗎？沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上要廢掉14個部的其中一個，事實上困難度很高。"],["羅委員智強：當然，我也認為不可能啊！但是很抱歉，這個邏輯遇到新住民發展署就不是啦！請問你，新住民基本法第四條規定是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：7月12日通過之後，我們會成立專責的三級機關。"],["羅委員智強：是啊！要成立專責三級機關，請問現在中央行政機關組織基準法第三十三條規定的三級機關的機關數上限是多少？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：70個。"],["羅委員智強：70個，用滿了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前滿了。"],["羅委員智強：滿了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：來，你們打算怎麼做？我直接講，你剛剛詢答已經講了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這基本上是同步在進行，第一個就是內政部移民署有成立一個新住民的籌備處……"],["羅委員智強：籌備處你都能講！內政部可以成立一個運動部籌備處，然後不要改部會上限？我直接問你，你剛剛已經回答了，你沒打算打破這70個上限，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我想請問你，你不打算打破這70個上限，你告訴我要廢掉哪個部、哪個署、哪個司、哪個局？要廢掉哪個三級機關？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，我們內部有在評估，現在因為還在評估階段，所以這個……"],["羅委員智強：你的評估就是跟我講你不動上限嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不動上限是原則，因為不動上限，所以我們……"],["羅委員智強：因為不動上限，你就非得撤掉一個，不然就併掉一個，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個就是我們內部……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你邏輯問題在哪裡，人事長，我說真的，今天叫你在這邊是為難你啦！說真的今天主席邀的人也都不對啦！待會會跟你講為什麼不對，我先把這個邏輯問題跟你講清楚。為什麼沒辦法？你今天裁掉任何一個三級機關，那個三級機關的業務就有要移撥的問題，你光研議要裁掉哪個三級機關，就像你剛剛講的，你那個籌備處2、3年都研議不出來啦！你光研議要裁掉哪個籌備機關，你就這樣子把這件事情擱著啦！今天如果照你的邏輯，你剛剛也講了，你為什麼不要打破機關上限，是因為你不應該膨脹員額，盡量不要膨脹員額，不是嗎？你剛剛回答的啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們組織希望業務要重新盤點，而不是一有新的業務就去用加法思考。"],["羅委員智強：很好，非常好！我幫你翻成白話，就是你前面的白話文，可能遇到我你就稍謹慎一點，就用文言文。你剛剛前面講的就是不應膨脹，我跟你講，我沒有反對這個原則，這事實上也是我最大的困惑，因為我以前也在政府機關工作過，當時民進黨說，政府的機關太多，要裁撤、精簡政府，馬政府還真的去做了很多精簡政府的工作。現在民進黨上來之後不得了，這個機關成立、那個機關成立，成立了一大堆，有的有必要成立，我贊成，可是我今天就要跟你講標準的問題，今天擺明非常鮮活的例子就在現在的狀況，你對運動部就沒有所謂機關不應膨脹、預算不應膨脹、員額不應膨脹的標準存在。我就問你，現在運動發展署的員額，你剛剛講過是135人，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：然後變成體育部之後，分年階段要增加到400人，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是部跟署加起來是400人。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，400人，橫空就增加兩百多人啦！預算就200億嘛！我就跟你講，今天說你違反了剛剛講的預算不要膨脹、員額不要膨脹的原因，是因為運動部重要。我接受這個論點，我接受啊！可是同樣的狀況，你就跟我講新住民不重要，不是嗎？一模一樣的邏輯。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我從來沒有講過新住民不重要。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你沒有講過新住民不重要，但是你的作法跟民進黨政府的作法就告訴大家新住民不重要，這不是你講的文字上的問題。","我再跟你講，剛剛在詢答的過程當中，我也看到新聞說賴清德總統要延緩新住民發展署，你剛剛否認說賴清德總統沒有這個要求，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有、沒有。"],["羅委員智強：可是我要講的是，即便他沒有這個要求，你們的作法也滿像今天賴清德總統有這個要求的。我只問你一件事，你覺得新住民發展署什麼時候會成立？需要多久時間？在不動機關上限的情況之下。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我剛才在黃國昌委員質詢時已經答應了，我們會行文給內政部，請內政部加速來調整。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，我就是要跟你講這個問題，你答不出時間，然後你又要行文內政部。這是我今天覺得最無法接受的地方！今天單位有內政部嗎？我連要問內政部，今天都沒辦法問，我想請內政部跟你在這邊當場協調都沒辦法，有內政部嗎？有沒有？今天審查中央行政機關組織基準法，今天還有民眾黨麥玉珍的案子，有涉及新住民的問題在裡面，行政院秘書長不到，內政部也不來，我今天說你們瞧不起新住民，對不起新住民，到底哪一點說錯了？完全沒說錯！你們光今天的會議形式就瞧不起新住民，我還是跟人事長講，你在這個地方，我必須先說一句話，人事長本來在你的機關本位，你就要守住預算的員額編制，你就是不希望政府膨脹，這是你的本分，沒錯！所以我沒有怪你，可是今天光你在這邊當箭靶子，我覺得就是對新住民非常不尊重，因為很多問題，你還得行文內政部回答，你沒有辦法在這邊把事情釐清。我還是說一句話，真的表達對新住民的支持、認同的話，你最快的方式就比照運動部，運動部是增加一個部會，它是增加一個三級機關，層次還是差很多。如果一個部會重要可以增加，預算員額可以擴大、倍增，為什麼新住民發展署這樣一個三級機關，你要卡東卡西？到現在你也講不出來，籌備處要籌備10年嗎？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝蘇人事長。","接下來有請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-13","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","羅智強","莊瑞雄","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林倩綺","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐富癸等\n17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法\n第三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員林宜瑾等19 人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院\n組織法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組\n織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關\n組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政\n機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央\n行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員陳冠\n廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案；三、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分；四、審查 114年度中央政府總預算\n案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部\n分【第三、四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310001_00001"}}},{"id":"156891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156891","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b6fa8dc2306d93b702a0d4a4306ab205f5ae72a34e051796e9482b33612278bb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:18:46 - 10:31:29","影片長度":"00:12:43","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:18:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:31:29+08:00","duration":763,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.66284375,"end":7.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.977218750000002,"end":21.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.88409375,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.02659375,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.937843750000003,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.97534375,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.93721875,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.39659375,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.172843750000006,"end":39.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.99096875,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.572843750000004,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.563468750000006,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.250343750000006,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.66721875,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.16034375,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.67471875000001,"end":67.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.17659375000001,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.22659375,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.90534375,"end":76.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.94721875,"end":92.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.38034375000001,"end":87.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.07971875000001,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.59346875,"end":100.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.90534375,"end":102.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.76159375,"end":104.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.09471875000001,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.01846875000001,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":110.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.32159375,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.10596875,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.78471875000001,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.81784375000001,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.38721875,"end":126.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.06596875000001,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.51721875,"end":130.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.04409375,"end":134.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.79471875000002,"end":136.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.41471875000002,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.37596875,"end":145.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.06721875,"end":147.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.24409375000002,"end":150.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.33221875,"end":152.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.10409375,"end":157.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.79534375,"end":158.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.01034375,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.08596875,"end":163.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.92096875000001,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":168.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.76409375,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.40534375000001,"end":172.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.79721875,"end":174.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.92346875,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.96971875,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.13409375,"end":180.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.11659375000002,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.27659375000002,"end":184.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.79534375,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.368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了三個人你看開洋集團的蔡中榮跟右邊跟他的弟弟"},{"start":313.431,"end":341.616,"text":"這個也是這次台言綠能裡面都涉案的所以剛剛我一開始講了總統不是只有喊話說叫陳起義回來要嚴辦趕快把人抓到這是一個第二個經濟部的角色你們有提到三個解決方案嘛對不對可是更重要如果是眾所矚目的案子你們要好好辦好不好好接下來我看一下我看你們提了三個改善的這個方式我覺得應該是要肯定的可是處長你有沒有看到這個三個方式裡面少了一個正本清源"},{"start":343.206,"end":370.519,"text":"其實這三個方法都是重要的可是更重要是什麼?就是因為裡面的利潤利益太大嘛所以要正本清也就是說讓那個不法所得第一個不要那麼高第一個他應該要公開透明啊你讚不讚成?讚成我讚成我讚成公開透明這個最新的你看來你看一下這個案子是昨天最新的大家看倒數地方你看業者一口氣可以賺走台電多少錢?長達20年的再生能源的電費"},{"start":372.148,"end":397.071,"text":"四億四千多萬。你看,一個是中華、一個是中華、竹塘、一個是芬林的二輪。那裡面出現了什麼?就是為什麼利潤會這麼大?我今天提一個非常具體的建議喔,這邊。利潤這麼大一個很重要的源頭就是等過電價太高了。對不對?你看一下,我整理資料給你看。"},{"start":399.144,"end":401.945,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":426.778,"end":437.068,"text":"市長你看,上一張你看一下,你看一下德國的狀況德國是在2000年實施再生能源法他一開始跟我們台灣一樣喔也是採取短過電價對不對,這邊是三年嘛那給比較高的這個價格,比較好的這個價格嘛"},{"start":440.117,"end":459.03,"text":"那麽現在他當初裝的跟我們一樣啊那我們現在是產生了弊案你看人家後來德國市場成熟以後2017年他是修訂了11G2017就引入變成是競標了就是等過電價是要退場的然後讓這個競標的機制進來你看日本日本是在2012年導入等過這個制度然後後來呢推動光電發展以後技術成熟以後日本為了降低成本"},{"start":470.497,"end":498.552,"text":"他就開始從2017年引進了競標的旗幟本期今天為什麼要提出這個質詢你們那個三大措施是好的可是正本清源就是因為賭過電價這個地方出了問題了可以用可是像德國跟日本一段時間你為了降低成本對不對你把那個利潤降下來那對台電也很好啊好來所以我具體的要求來我們看一下下一張你看喔賭過機制先好好檢討一下如果像德國像日本"},{"start":499.577,"end":527.162,"text":"市場成熟了他至少有三個,你看至少有三個好處他如果退場的話避免過高的利益導致綠電蟑螂橫行必斷重生這是第一個好處第二個會弱使你剛三個方案裡面真正的公開透明公平競爭第三個台電欠錢欠價嘛對不對虧損累累嘛對不對以後公開競標完之後他的價格就會降下來合理的價格所以他至少有三個好處好那我現在具體的要求第一"},{"start":528.547,"end":544.271,"text":"一個禮拜內一個禮拜內你評估請經濟部評估什麼時候讓等過機制可以退場跟德國跟日本一樣轉變成是競標的機制你給我一個很具體的評估報告好不好現在光點沒有等過啦"},{"start":545.491,"end":547.992,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":572.728,"end":591.976,"text":"提出你們的修正版本。好來最後我再看一下最後你這三個點裡面齁我肯定你們之前總統提過之後還有卓議院長說你要提出個解決方案你們提了三個點嘛可是一定要落實好不好我是嘉義人來我們看下一張嘉義人請給咱們發聲一下大寶這張大寶你也很傷心嘛對不對民眾那種無辜他已經跟佳信政府已經存傾了齁"},{"start":600.698,"end":629.447,"text":"結果你看宮殿那一則在沒有跟村民取得共識之下他就開始去施工啊你看自己人多可憐委員這個案現在我自己會跟居民說這個案沒有跟地方居民溝通現在都是心事騙人在那邊沒有在動工一定要跟居民溝通而且居民溝通的時候才可以再動工這個案我們有在追蹤對喔有夠可憐的說什麼那個怪手司機跟我們說你不讓開我就把你連死太可憐了吧這會不會太殘忍啊"},{"start":630.797,"end":631.898,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查"},{"start":643.544,"end":646.166,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":661.059,"end":662.46,"text":"條例第十一條及第十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":679.838,"end":681.739,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":709.332,"end":729.606,"text":"我們現在已經先改掉了,事前就要先去溝通。我們已經事前在溝通,我們這個已經在改了所以這一個跟村民的溝通還要同意嘛,對不對?因為這個過程裡面要公開透明化,這可以避免利能商人在恨生、利病在重生,這個很重要。第三個我剛剛提了一個基本的改革方案"},{"start":730.146,"end":733.408,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":757.082,"end":759.573,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時19分）請連次長。"],["主席：請經濟部連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，今天討論再生能源，這幾天綠能的弊案引起很大討論，包括賴清德總統昨天喊話說要陳啓昱儘速到案，而且他要中央跟地方檢討整個行政流程，跟杜絕綠能的一些蟑螂。當然，我先表達我覺得總統不是應該只有喊話，他應該下令要檢警調趕快把陳啓昱逮捕歸案，這個是比喊話更重要。第一個，我就要問你了，總統叫你們中央到地方要進一步檢討行政流程還有審查機制，你們準備要怎麼做來杜絕綠能的這些弊案？"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，我們目前已經開過好幾次會，跟所有地方政府，還有我們甚至把法務部都找進來，還有農農業部相關單位、環境部，我們目前都在進行。"],["張委員啓楷：我看你們有三大方案，待會一個一個來討論，包括跟地方的溝通什麼的，我覺得這三個方法看起來還不錯，可是有些地方要再補強，更重要的是要先辦一些大家矚目的案子啊！我先講一個重要的案子，就是你們部長說雲豹炒股，對不對？他不是聯絡了金管會說要去查它有沒有炒股，對不對？事實上雲豹跟你們也很有關係啊！雲豹牽扯到臺灣綠能的弊案，這個媒體有報導過好幾次，民眾黨的立法委員也開過記者會了，你看一下，雲豹從臺鹽綠能搬走了上億元，臺鹽說會配合司法調查，我給你看一個圖，我們看一下這個圖，為什麼變成雲豹涉入臺鹽綠能這個弊案？北門案場這個土地一開始的承租人是臺鹽綠能，結果呢？你看右邊，案場後來轉給雲豹投資公司，雲豹已經賺錢了喔！後來突然又出現額外要支出上億元給縱橫家有限公司，結果這間縱橫家有限公司現在大家在質疑，包括人家去檢舉，它是不是雲豹？就是部長常常在講的炒股的雲豹，它跟縱橫家到底是什麼關係，縱橫家是不是它的紙上公司？有三個很特別的地方，第一個，雲豹跟縱橫家剛好設在同一個地址，你看內湖那個住址，兩家公司是同樣一個地址；縱橫家的聯絡人剛好也是雲豹能源的經理，更離譜的是什麼？縱橫家本來收不到錢，它從臺鹽綠能那邊搬走了快一億元、掏空了快一億，它要不到錢，誰去幫它要錢？雲豹的創辦人張建偉出面去討錢。所以我剛剛講總統說要你們好好去辦，對不對？那我今天正式的提醒，這個案子要好好辦，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：雲豹怎麼樣掏空了臺鹽綠能、我們國家的資產？這個案子要好好辦。","第二個，我要給你看一張照片，全國綠能，當然我們是鼓勵綠能嘛！可是綠能產業後援會是不是變成一個黑金弊案的後援大會？你看這張圖上面的臺鹽綠能陳啓昱落跑了，這是在2020年蔡英文總統要連任的時候，陳啓昱參加了這個後援會，現在落跑了。力暘建設的古盛煇，這個就是臺南的88槍，他從台電的不法所得，檢察官的起訴書怎麼說？從台電取得的不法所得有91億。"],["連次長錦漳：沒有啦！我們現在一毛錢都沒付，我要跟委員……"],["張委員啓楷：現在停了嘛！對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對，我們一毛錢都沒有付。"],["張委員啓楷：我是說連檢察官的起訴書裡面都這樣寫了嘛！對不對？當然你把它踩煞車，可是這個案子就……"],["連次長錦漳：我們一毛錢都沒付。"],["張委員啓楷：對，不只要踩煞車，這個弊案還要更清楚，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：對，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：力暘建設這個案子裡面還牽扯到裡面有沒有經濟部的人員，也被起訴了嘛！對不對？這個行政處分都要去……"],["連次長錦漳：對，這個司法在處理。"],["張委員啓楷：對，都要去貫徹。你再看右邊這個聯合再生，聯合再生是監察院提的糾正案，它搬走我們國家的資產多少錢？它光是在彰濱工業區整個專案的開發，到現在監察院已經糾正了，這個案子你們也要好好查。"],["連次長錦漳：有，我們叫它一定要把所有的股權回復到可控制的狀況。"],["張委員啓楷：好，已經點了三個人，你再看右邊，開陽集團的蔡宗融跟右邊他的弟弟，也是這次台鹽綠能裡面都涉案的，所以我剛剛一開始講的，總統不是只有喊話說叫陳啓昱回來，要嚴辦，趕快把人抓到，這是一個。第二個，經濟部的角色，你們有提到三個解決方案嘛！對不對？可是更重要，如果是眾所矚目的案子，你們要好好辦，好不好？","接下來，我看你們提了三個改善的方式，我覺得應該是要肯定的，可是次長，你有沒有覺得這三個方式裡面少了一個正本清源？其實這三個方法都是重要的，可是更重要的是什麼？就是因為裡面的利潤、利益太大嘛！所以要正本清源就是讓那個不法所得，第一個、不要那麼高；第二個、它應該要公開透明啊！你贊不贊成？"],["連次長錦漳：贊成，我贊成公開……"],["張委員啓楷：來，你看一下這個最新的，這個案子是昨天最新的，大家看倒數第5行，業者一口氣可以賺走台電多少錢？長達20年再生能源的電費四億四千多萬，你看，一個是彰化竹塘，一個是雲林二崙，裡面出現什麼？就是為什麼利潤會這麼大？我今天提一個非常具體的建議，次長，利潤這麼大一個很重要的源頭就是躉購電價太高了，對不對？你看一下，我整理資料給你看，各國一開始在電價方面都會用躉購的方式，可是後來慢慢就一定會退場嘛！現在的風電就是這樣子，已經退場了，對不對？變成競標嘛！太陽能已經發生這麼多問題了，檢察官現在起訴的案子，光是太陽能的至少有50件了，有50件！為什麼？就是裡面的利潤太高，而且因為躉購電價到目前造成一個很大的問題。","我們看一下，次長，你看一下德國的狀況，德國是在2000年實施再生能源法，它一開始跟臺灣一樣也是採取躉購電價，對不對？一次20年，給比較好的價格，當初它的狀況跟我們一樣。現在我們產生了弊案，你看德國後來市場成熟以後，2017年它修訂了EEG 2017就引入變成是競標，躉購電價是要退場的，讓競標的機制進來。次長，你看日本，日本是在2012年導入躉購制度，後來推動光電發展，技術成熟了以後，日本為降低成本，從2017年開始就引進競標機制。","本席今天為什麼要提出這個質詢，你們那三大措施是好的，可是正本清源，就是因為躉購電價這個地方出了問題，可以用，可是像德國和日本，一段時間以後為了降低成本，對不對？你把那個利潤降下來，對台電也很好啊！"],["連次長錦漳：嗯。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我具體要求，躉購機制現在好好檢討一下，如果像德國、像日本市場成熟了，至少有三個好處，它如果退場的話，避免過高的利益，導致綠電蟑螂橫行，弊端叢生，這是第一個好處。第二個，落實剛剛三個方案裡面的真正的公開透明、公平競爭。第三個，台電欠錢欠到虧損累累，以後公開競標完之後價格就會降下來，合理的價格，所以至少有三個好處。","我現在具體要求，第一個，一個禮拜內請經濟部評估什麼時候可以讓躉購機制退場，跟德國、日本一樣轉變成是競標機制，你給我一個很具體的評估報告，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：現在光電沒有躉購……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在是躉購嘛！我說你現在要去檢討什麼時候變成跟風電一樣，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：三個好處我剛剛都唸給大家聽了，這三個都很具體、很重要，好不好？一個禮拜內你提出個報告。甚至要不要像德國，德國是直接入法，像我們現在提再生能源，你在修正案裡面很清楚地以法律明定它什麼時候要落日，好不好？提出你們的修正版本。","最後，這三點裡面，我肯定你們之前……總統提過後，還有卓院長說你要提出個解決方案，你們提了三個點嘛！可是一定要落實，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我是嘉義人，嘉義前陣子發生一個……"],["連次長錦漳：大埔水災。"],["張委員啓楷：你也……"],["連次長錦漳：看起來這很……"],["張委員啓楷：很傷心，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：嗯，這個現在……"],["張委員啓楷：民眾那麼無辜，他已經跟嘉義縣政府陳情了。光電業者在沒有跟村民取得共識之下就開始施工，你看嘉義人多可憐！"],["連次長錦漳：現在我們有跟嘉義縣政府說，這個案子如果沒有跟地方居民溝通的話，這個形勢pending在那邊，沒有在動工……"],["張委員啓楷：好，一定要跟居民溝通，而且居民同意的時候才可以再動工。"],["連次長錦漳：這個案子我們有追蹤。"],["張委員啓楷：要追喔！"],["連次長錦漳：我們有追。"],["張委員啓楷：有夠可憐，他說怪手司機竟然說：你不讓開，我就把你輾死！太誇張了吧！這會不會太殘忍啊？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["張委員啓楷：嘉義人是很善良的，結果你看那個怪手竟然可以這樣！所以第一個，它不只要溝通，村民如果沒有同意它不准再動工，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：最後我做幾個要求，這五點我就不再念了，這五點是很重要的整個改革方案，包括你怎麼確保協調機制有效性，一共五個訴求，你給我一個書面報告就好了，回去檢討，大概兩個禮拜內給我，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：這個我們在三個禮拜內，好不好？給我們三個禮拜……"],["張委員啓楷：所以躉購電價的那個檢討評估報告、什麼時候可以退場，你什麼時候可以給我們？"],["連次長錦漳：我們連這個在三個禮拜內……"],["張委員啓楷：這些都在三個禮拜內，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：三個禮拜。"],["張委員啓楷：這兩個我要求的東西，三個禮拜內都送到本席辦公室。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝，我們一起努力。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：一方面不要讓弊案再發生……"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，我們現在做到橫向溝通，還要跟地方政府……"],["張委員啓楷：辛苦一點……"],["連次長錦漳：要做SOP，剛才委員講的要公開透明，不要讓它有那個空間，我們現在跟法務部及相關單位都已經很努力在把這部分做好。"],["張委員啓楷：好。我們也肯定你們的努力，可是有了計畫一定要好好去執行，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：我們會。"],["張委員啓楷：所以首先，就是你要執行的話，第一個，你跟村民溝通，這個一定要做到，對於所有的民眾，你不是只有開個協調或說明會，一定要在他們同意之下才可以動工。"],["連次長錦漳：還有民眾黨提的那個，要怎麼去溝通，我們現在已經改掉了，事前就要先去溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：有喔？"],["連次長錦漳：這個我們現在就已經在做。"],["張委員啓楷：我代表台灣民眾黨提這個版本，你有照這個做？"],["連次長錦漳：有，我們已經事前溝通，這個已經在改了。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以第一個是跟村民的溝通，還要同意，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，這個過程裡面要公開透明化。"],["連次長錦漳：有。"],["張委員啓楷：這可以避免……"],["連次長錦漳：還有一些資料怎麼公開透明，都有……"],["張委員啓楷：避免綠能蟑螂橫生、弊病叢生，這個很重要。","第三個，我剛剛提的基本改革方案……"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：正本清源，就是利潤太高嘛！德國和日本都用了很好的方案，他山之石可以攻錯，我們可以學人家好的地方，對不對？所以你現在好好回去檢討一下。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：既然風電躉購電價都可以改成競標了，我們趕快讓這個弊病叢生、不透明的部分，光電以後也把躉購電價換下來，變成公開競標，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：讓台電也不會虧損那麼多，可以改善台電的體質，它的財政是好的嘛！其次，弊案也會減少，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們共同努力，三個禮拜內給我方案。"],["連次長錦漳：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。我們也請經濟部於三個禮拜內給張啓楷委員辦公室一個清楚的報告資料。","接下來請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","黃健豪","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","蔡易餘","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文\n修正草案」案、(二)本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(三)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)本\n院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)\n本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；二、審查：\n(一)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員賴士葆\n等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員邱志偉等 22 人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156897","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156897","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b64928bdd86785cdb6b270dce3daca9a75ae72a34e051796e76d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:31:46 - 10:41:57","影片長度":"00:10:11","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐富癸等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）至（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）至（七）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）、（五）、（六）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第（三）及（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。\n【第三、四案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:31:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:41:57+08:00","duration":611,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.067218750000002,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.809718750000002,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.89409375,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.062843750000003,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.379093750000003,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.926593750000002,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.48284375,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.22034375,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.81596875,"end":55.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":57.861593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.40159375,"end":68.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.96534375,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.27721875,"end":72.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.43721875,"end":78.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.43221875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.29221875,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.60346875,"end":94.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.89784375,"end":99.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.61034375000001,"end":102.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.79971875000001,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.60909375,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.38909375,"end":115.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.94534375,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.44284375000001,"end":128.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.46659375000002,"end":130.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.40284375000002,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.51659375,"end":133.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.50784375,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.33034375,"end":137.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.43534375000002,"end":141.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.96659375000002,"end":143.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.51471875000001,"end":148.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.02034375000002,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.55284375000002,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.65409375000002,"end":171.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.26534375,"end":179.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.28971875000002,"end":183.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.13721875000002,"end":184.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.15409375000002,"end":228.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.49784375000002,"end":225.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.91534375,"end":231.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.56409375,"end":240.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.58409375000002,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.25909375,"end":241.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.03534375,"end":242.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.59221875000003,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.02659375000002,"end":264.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.62659375000004,"end":269.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.99721875,"end":273.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.43971875,"end":275.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.42659375,"end":277.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.16471875,"end":280.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.25284375,"end":288.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.86346875000004,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.03471875,"end":302.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.66721875,"end":303.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.40534375000004,"end":306.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.59909375,"end":307.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.06284375,"end":312.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.07909375,"end":317.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.75346875,"end":320.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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運動部的一個成立。我要你覺得說是升格,但是行政院就說不是升格。啊不然輸在你。你要怎麼說輸在你。就你生出來就好了。但重點喔重點喔你好不容易經過多次的會議凝聚這次的一個組織法。一個組織法。所以我要請教你的就是說這個討論過程當中你人事總書家你到底有去參悟嗎?"},{"start":170.675,"end":172.776,"text":"你提供什麼樣的意見嗎?這是重點嗎?你有參與嗎?有啊!有啊!不然去那裡說什麼?我們聽什麼?你總是要有你的意見啦!重點你也知道我要問什麼?你這個屁股到底是怎麼生出來的?"},{"start":184.973,"end":204.589,"text":"這400個人大概他是分階段禁用啦因為說這個新的運動部的一個組成我們希望援引這一些有運動賽事經驗的人到公部門來所以我們在任用資格上面也有開放就比照教育人員任用條例讓他可以進來那是一個教育人員任用條例進國發會相關機關有在用第二個就是用聘用的"},{"start":212.316,"end":212.496,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":233.595,"end":240.062,"text":"一百三十四,一百三十五差一個啦。好,那你這樣整個運動部,你說會不會失敗?這樣差幾個你知道嗎?兩百六十五?兩百六十五,但是那不是一檔喔,他要分幾個檔要補開的喔。分幾個檔?"},{"start":247.745,"end":277.388,"text":"啊你前一年如果說他的權責劃分清楚你意思就是說沒關係你運風不當成立齁第一年7號就好啊第二年7號減一數啊啊因為那個人沒夠啊給做擔保啊第三年啊人家給補寡去買啊你沒夠7號啊嗯啊前一年幾年我為什麼開宗明義就跟你講說政府注重的是一個效能啊倒也不是說我要一年一年慢慢地補如果你真的是需要那麼多人的話需要那麼多人的話"},{"start":278.251,"end":279.932,"text":"三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":309.087,"end":310.187,"text":"五）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具〈行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":339.517,"end":340.277,"text":"議員徐富癸等21人擬具"},{"start":359.929,"end":368.057,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具:「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案 案件中,你本來就是一部一署三中心,什麼叫做移過來,它本來就會在那個地方,那你本來就是新成立一個部會,你體育署本來就是存在,那你還有三個中心,你怎麼可以說是移過來,那134那個不會變的啊。"},{"start":379.384,"end":399.514,"text":"委員報告啦,那些中心那些人要補那麼快,但是你若說沒有人玩齁,我們還要提缺啊,提議行政缺,還要提缺,還要去科技,還要再來,它會有一兩年的一個時間差嘛,你若運動中心,產業中心,那些不用科技的組織嘛,那些直接就過來,那些人在補充那麼快啦。我告訴你,院長。"},{"start":402.515,"end":407.266,"text":"你還聽不懂我的意思。我的意思就是說,你甚至很堅持跟他講說,你的人也沒那麼多,你的五十個就夠了。"},{"start":412.725,"end":413.526,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案案案 案件》案。"},{"start":435.103,"end":442.049,"text":"他整個政府的效能才會做出來,那你就要去把人家編購。你如果認為說不想賺到就夠了,我也支持你,很好啊。"},{"start":445.782,"end":471.962,"text":"我當一個人事長我讓整個政府產生很大的一個效能又可以節省那麼多的一個公帑有什麼不對?所以我的意思是你既然參與了那既然你認為要給400個 這樣奉獻我就有疑慮是這個問題我給委員補充這三百個加一百個不是用花的因為從他的執掌組織執掌幾個師幾個科要編制多少人來推動哪些業務"},{"start":473.203,"end":484.447,"text":"主要以業務為主體,業務然後再攤出來,算算會看三百會如何出來。業務一個計算的公式。那你幾年要曝光?你大了啦?你認為多少?多久?四年?那應該是新的部要提出來他的一個禁用計畫,我們再來全力協助他。所以你認為這幾年他們的業務就是很少的囉?"},{"start":500.127,"end":502.83,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":525.391,"end":538.845,"text":"國務令委員的行政效率,這是你任總努力的一個目標嘛。我去看喔,你像AI關鍵能力的一個培養,連任總處你們透過一等的公務員學習平台,這個都有些成果。可是你注意把它看,大家去都在衝啊,你看看,你簡單看一看。你的monitor應該就有啊,大家去都英文而已。"},{"start":545.493,"end":565.339,"text":"因為AI那麼多的一個功能啊你去把它看你光是英文的選讀課程就25萬人次認證時數高達26萬小時代表我們公立人都很喜歡這個平台這是好事這是好事但是呢我比較擔心的就是說你一些新的政策跟可能的方向可能就卡在這個"},{"start":566.459,"end":567.58,"text":"我委員報告今年7月開始我們有6大類的課程"},{"start":589.893,"end":590.133,"text":"二）委員吳沛憶"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時31分）謝謝召委。有請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事長，其實我倒覺得你的職務跟其他部會不一樣，一個政府追求的是有效能的政府，倒不是人一直擴張、大而無當，造成最後好像是人很多，權責也不清楚，冗員一大堆，這樣也不好。但是，我相信國會這邊大家所提出來的，都是每一個委員有所著墨之處。我今天想請教，關於運動部的成立，一個全新的部會不是像奇異博士一樣，手揮一下就變出來了。今年4月份我看一個在黨的朋友在逼教育部，一個月要生出升格的計畫，當初我就說不要，既然大家都覺得很重要，不要這樣急就章，到時候草草定案，全新的一個部會到最後會變成換湯不換藥，大家都做白工。可是我也要讓你看一下運動部籌備的大事記，113年6月18號體育運動政策白皮書及體育暨運動發展部規劃論壇中部場，113年6月21號是南部場，113年7月11號是東部場，113年7月15號是北部場，8月15號在行政院院會中，院長宣布將成立體育暨運動發展部籌備小組，到了9月9號體育暨運動發展部諮詢小組第一次會議，9月19號第二次的諮詢小組會議，9月23號就是第三次。我為什麼提這一些？雖然有這些會議，但我還是覺得都很趕、都非常倉促，當然我相信各個政黨、很多的委員都希望成立運動部，我一直覺得是升格，但行政院就說不是升格。你要怎麼說，隨便你！有生出來就好了。但重點在於，好不容易經過多次會議凝聚這次的組織法。我要請教你的是，在這個討論過程當中，人事總處到底有沒有參與？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有參與。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們有提供什麼樣的意見嗎？這才是重點，雖然你有參與，但不是去那邊聽人家在說什麼而已，你總是要有你的意見，重點是你知道我要問什麼，這400個到底是怎麼生出來的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這400個人是分階段進用，因為新的運動部組成，我們希望援引這一些有運動賽事經驗的人到公部門，所以在任用資格上面也有開放，就比照教育人員任用條例讓他可以進來。那是比照教育人員任用條例，現在國發會相關機關也有在用，第二個就是採聘用，有的沒有教授、副教授的資格，也可以進來政府機關，就採聘用的方式。當然要多元的進用，不然新的部會可以做的事情就跟以前一樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，但重點不在那。重點是體育署現在有135人。你現在說整個運動部要400人，這樣差幾個，你知道嗎？265。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：但那不是一年，要分好幾年才會補齊。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果它的權責劃分清楚……你的意思是沒關係，運動部剛成立，第一年玩就好，第二年玩少一點，因為人不夠，大家就多做一點，第三年人再補一些進來，你們就不要再玩了。我為什麼開宗明義就跟你說，政府注重的是效能？倒也不是要一年一年慢慢補，如果你真的需要那麼多人，想做官的人很多，他如果有能力讓他做官也沒關係，你知不知道？我總會覺得逐年把它補足，聽起來很奇怪，對一個新部會來講的話，我不知道你的看法到底是怎樣，我是用一個請教的方式。我一直講，人事總處扣名額不是不對，站在你的立場，你本來就是要扣，因為有總員額法。政府總共要多少人，站在人總的立場，什麼人上台、什麼人當院長、什麼人掌管這個國家，要亂增加就一直增加，這也不對！站在人總的立場，也不對！但問題就是，既然你認為就需要這麼多，你本身也認為需要那麼多人，才可以達到整個部會的效能，可是你又覺得一年一年慢慢做，哪有這種邏輯？我聽不懂！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員補充一下，現在運動部成立，原來體育署的班底會移過來，移過來沒有辦法補到300個人，有些缺……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你說哪裡移過來？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：原來教育部的體育署。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不！那個本來就是一部一署三中心，什麼叫做移過來？它本來就會在那個地方。本來就是新成立一個部會，體育署本來就存在，而且還有三個中心，你怎麼可以說是移過來？135人是不會變的！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那些中心的那些人要補比較快，如果是公務人員，我們還要提缺，體育行政缺必須去提考試缺，人再進來，會有一、兩年的時間差。如果是運動產業中心，不需要考試資格，可以直接就補進來，補充那些人比較快。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你聽不懂我的意思。我的意思是，你甚至可以很堅持跟他說，人不必那麼多，50個就夠了，又沒有什麼業務可以辦。如果人事長敢這樣講的話，立法院會支持你。你說人數很少，就可以達到整個政府的效能，小而美，我也支持你。但問題是很明顯的，我問你那麼多的議程，你都有去參與，你也認同人家，說要400個才會把整個運動部的政府效能做出來，那你就要把人家編夠。你如果認為不必，10個就夠了，我也支持你，很好！你當一個人事長，讓整個政府產生很大的效能，又可以節省那麼多的公帑，有什麼不對？所以我的意思是，你既然參與了，認為要給400個，我對這樣的方式就有疑慮，是這個問題。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員補充，300個加100個不是用喊的，因為從它的組織、職掌，有幾個司、幾個科，要編制多少人來推動哪些業務，主要以業務為主體，然後再攤出來算一算，結果要300個才夠，那有一個計算公式。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你認為大略多久？4年？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那應該是新的部要提出它的進用計畫，我們再來全力協助它。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你認為這幾年他們的業務就是很少的囉？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它才剛成立，基本上150個到200個應該跑不掉。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，這個問題我最主要是要做一個釐清。最後一個問題，數位趨勢已經變成一個常態，我去看你們的整個網站裡面，公務員邁向數位未來這個部分，你們增設更多的多元課程，但無論你們員額怎麼補，公務人員的行政效率是人總努力的目標。我看到像AI關鍵能力的培養，人事總處透過「e等公務園＋學習平臺」，這個都有些成果。可是你注意看大家上去都在做什麼，你簡單看一下，你的monitor應該就有，大家上去都是學英文而已，AI有那麼多功能，可是你看光是英文的選讀課程就有25萬人次，認證時數高達26萬小時，代表我們公務人員都很喜歡這個平臺，這是好事。但是我比較擔心的是，一些新的政策與方向可能就卡在僵固的政府人員沒辦法去推行，連這個網站裡面，我覺得這個非常非常可惜，AI的相關課程好像研習的非常少，人事長，你們要去精進一下，不用緊張，我認為有很多想要學習。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，從今年7月開始我們有六大類、210個課程，到目前為止有30萬人次去上，這個效率就代表大家對這個區塊非常重視，而且有興趣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，我是要你有一個比較精進，讓更多想學習的公務人員有一些資源和管道，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員、謝謝蘇人事長。稍後在鄭委員天財詢答完畢後休息5分鐘。","現在請麥委員玉珍發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-13","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","羅智強","莊瑞雄","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林倩綺","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐富癸等\n17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法\n第三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員林宜瑾等19 人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院\n組織法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組\n織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關\n組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政\n機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央\n行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員陳冠\n廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案；三、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分；四、審查 114年度中央政府總預算\n案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部\n分【第三、四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310001_00001"}}},{"id":"156890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b4d6daf1048cbddc5fd7b6b5cb373b4dd5ae72a34e051796e92745e27300ebd055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:17:06 - 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那部長我想給你看這個表格可以清楚看到108年到112年安淡含量為嚴重污染河川最下面那裡包括依序是從6條變9條再變10條再變6條又回到9條所以"},{"start":128.362,"end":149.818,"text":" bicyncy效果其實並不好又回到原點那如果說看計畫最後兩年的數據部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重啊算是越整治越差所以我只是想問說那這樣的經費算不算是真的丟到水裡了呢那也是我想問這樣2.0是不是不敢寫說為什麼沒有在聚焦這些河川"},{"start":150.938,"end":178.477,"text":"我跟委員報告雖然1、2年年底的這個水質的狀況是呈現這樣但事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用分別是南侃溪跟二仁溪它是目前的這個濃度都有大幅的下降所以基本上是那個工程雖然當時年底完工了但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年所以從今年的上半年所以你意思是說接下來才會更好因為上一年是有因為有一些"},{"start":179.457,"end":194.103,"text":"公程的問題嗎?好那另外一張表格喔數據顯示從108年喔之後只有111年稍微短暫下降其他的各項評比都是偏高尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31好然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183"},{"start":201.286,"end":213.793,"text":"那部長現在2.0還要編26億將近26億9千萬喔我想要請問這具體目標是什麼因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的啊那總不能跟第一期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧"},{"start":214.763,"end":217.265,"text":"公務及基金預算案關於環境部部主管預算案關於環境部部主管預算案"},{"start":235.416,"end":249.34,"text":"您要達到的數值因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛那我剛剛已經講出來很多的結果是不好那你現在跟我說因為有工程或等等的問題好那我問你你現在新的第二期的部分你覺得要怎麼"},{"start":251.041,"end":253.582,"text":"好,我想要講的事情是因為你第一期前面那四年"},{"start":281.03,"end":303.025,"text":"那20多億今天我們是預算會期那20多億表現的就是不是你們當然自評覺得很好可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣好那現在新的我剛剛也講其他數據是這樣那所以我要提醒你未來4年這筆經費你究竟是什麼具體目標是不是在預算的時候你要提供出來讓大家知道另外這個部長除了"},{"start":307.808,"end":333.161,"text":"安淡減量之外還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾也就是所謂的穿廢那目前日前的報導有這個綠色和平看這個簡報綠色和平調查我國的指標河川塑膠調查發現塑膠垃圾佔比非常高那這些河廢呢沖到海裡又會變海廢所以會讓我們的台灣許多海岸不滿垃圾清都清不完請教部長要如何降低穿廢的情形"},{"start":334.684,"end":352.135,"text":"這個其實還是要從改變這個這個整個的源頭減量做起所以這個我們會努力不過目前來說的話這個其實是要改變他的習慣因為其實的確我自己也去撿了很多的垃圾在海邊河邊其實的確一直撿還是一直都有是啊對所以"},{"start":352.955,"end":371.691,"text":"好,我再進一步就教根據這個112年度的向海致敬這個海岸清潔維護計畫計畫的這個平和的報告中結論表示分析海岸垃圾的組成漁業相關的廢棄物佔總量的大概七成那其中發泡浮球佔29%漁網繩索28%硬塑膠浮球12%塑膠品11%等等那"},{"start":379.099,"end":394.788,"text":"這些有包含上述穿廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎?沒有沒有這個海廢是海廢但是因為穿廢也會跑到海廢去啊所以我的意思就是說有沒有包含因為我想要請教的部分就是這個數據有一點"},{"start":396.289,"end":423.019,"text":"讓我覺得有點落差啦也就是說如果是綠色和平講的他的報告統計塑膠穿廢是佔91%的話那到了海廢其實大概就海廢的部分呢他其實就沒有佔這麼多那我可不可以反過來推的意思是說因為海廢的量更大是不是這樣說因為海廢的量非常大所以穿廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後他也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠料塑膠廢料是這樣子的意思嗎"},{"start":424.059,"end":448.769,"text":"來我們請我們署長來回答謝謝謝謝委員剛才委員所提到的這些福球等等之類的這是大概養殖海洋活動所產生的那其實近幾年來我們已經從2200噸左右每年在海岸的垃圾降到大概每年900噸左右是有大幅的降低那這裡面"},{"start":450.069,"end":473.36,"text":"很重要的就是這些漁網或者是浮球目前漁網是百分之百實名制浮球也逐次改成好沒關係不好意思我想請教就是說所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢你們是也把它統計進去計算所以他們兩個數據有一個很大的落差也就是說在川廢的時候九成是塑膠垃圾到了海岸之後不是九成塑膠垃圾他可能才可能20%十幾%"},{"start":474.921,"end":483.003,"text":"那是不是代表說海岸垃圾還是更多?那所以船費進來到海岸變成海岸垃圾的時候它的比例並沒有因此而增高?"},{"start":483.775,"end":509.806,"text":"因為海廢其實包含全世界各種的地方當然當然所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎沒錯沒錯是這個意思嗎對不對對好沒關係那我再進一步來問河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海洋或這個海岸廢棄物喔那所以我想要問說其中大部分還是有這個塑膠飲料的包裝喔那國內大型業者責無旁貸嘛想要請教部長喔怎麼樣或是是不是也要要求飲料的品牌廠商負起減塑責任呢"},{"start":510.914,"end":530.363,"text":"報告委員其實我們一直在推那個循環杯啦盡量減少這個一次性的這個飲料那其實也是希望說這個通路循環杯也一起來做這個事情所以我想對我就進一步想要看一下在這次穿廢統計中非塑膠的垃圾類的品牌排名那數量最多第一名大概是佔了48%"},{"start":532.564,"end":543.792,"text":"其次是臺灣菸酒的9%所以兩者相差6倍我想要問這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的這個退貧押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢?"},{"start":544.616,"end":546.377,"text":"所以沒有我現在已經跟你討論到就是這個檢縮的部分了"},{"start":562.346,"end":562.526,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":562.526,"end":583.948,"text":"剛剛我是在救教那個數據的部分。但我現在跟你討論到這個減塑的部分就是說因為我們塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們自定明年的減塑目標明顯是達不到。那整體一次性的塑膠品的產量不減反增。剛剛你們說雖然說你做了很多好像措施可是數據我想這個部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認嘛。"},{"start":584.648,"end":599.637,"text":"在傳統市場您受傷的線索遇到強力的挑戰那同樣邏輯一昧依靠禁止看起來也不是一個好的效果也有反效果那有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策讓廠商也願意進行改善呢?"},{"start":600.526,"end":625.047,"text":"報告委員其實因為那個11月底就有塑膠公約啦我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的他的動態所以現在還沒有比較我意思是說有沒有什麼具體的誘因政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入然後進行改善目前我們的確是邀請了這個各第一個還是綠色製造啦第二個是我們邀請了很多的廠商包括外送業者等等等等一直在討論這個問題那希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約"},{"start":625.387,"end":644.742,"text":"另外一個我想提一下,那是不是也有可能說至少增加補助,比如說降低有機再生質的質料及質塑料的生產成本,因為它的這個生產成本就相對比較高,這部分是有可能的嗎?還是有機再生生質塑料?"},{"start":645.776,"end":674.085,"text":"好那呃這邊這邊呃因為他在這個機會我們會來這個呃輔導他呃看怎麼樣可以來這個替代我們的一個原生的一個沒有因為現在看起來的狀況就是一般的塑膠製品他就是成本就是很低那這種有機再生的生殖的塑料的成本就是很高那這個的確是很環保很環保的東西嘛但是兩個因為成本的關係所以大家就是還是選擇製造這一次性的塑料嘛的塑膠製品嘛所以我剛才提的就是這個部分是不是可以請"},{"start":675.105,"end":697.823,"text":"委員其實我也去看了這些的產業那的確可能可以被鼓勵但是那邊也有那邊的問題包含價錢還有它的產量的就是對成本跟量的問題嘛所以我說這部分應該去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們去使用好這個委員我們在努力的確我們我的確也是去看了這些但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系能夠建立起來"},{"start":698.263,"end":707.961,"text":" »: 如果部長有這方面的到時候有這方面的進一步的研究或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本期辦公室參考好沒問題沒問題謝謝部長謝謝謝謝謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來請盧先英"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時17分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你好。部長，我想要請教一下，政府歷年來都有進行水質保護的計畫，最近一期剛結束的是108年到112年的永續水質推動計畫──氨氮削減示範計畫，這個計畫在過去也明定了，聚焦在整治南崁溪等7條河流，等一下請看我的簡報，但是到了去年通過永續水質推動計畫2.0，也就是113年到116年的時候，2.0卻不再聚焦要整治這7條河川，我現在想要請問部長，這7條河川第1期在108年到112年總共編列了大概20.2億，包括基金那三億多，快三億五，那想要請問您覺得治理成效如何？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個其實還是有在治理，我必須說這個還是有延續的在做，至於到底每一條河做得好不好，我請司長來回答，好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請問你們覺得過去的治理成效如何？"],["王司長嶽斌：是，剛才委員關心的這個計畫在當時訂定的目標是氨氮的削減，就是它的濃度要小於3mg/l（milligrams per liter）的目標……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，我只是想要問你們覺得你們自己做得怎麼樣？"],["王司長嶽斌：我們從整體來檢討，基本上有符合目標要求的70%，那我們的達標率是71%。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們看一下這個PPT，你們現在說分數是99.82%、是優等，換言之，你們覺得自己治理的成效是很好的，對不對？"],["王司長嶽斌：就是按照計畫要求的工項，我們是有把它完成。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，我想請你看，從這個表格可以清楚的看到108年到112年氨氮含量為嚴重污染的河川，最下面依序是從6條變9條，再變10條，再變6條，又回到9條，所以整治的效果其實並不好，因為又回到原點。如果看計畫最後兩年的數據，部分溪流的污染程度也是嚴重，算是越整治越差，所以我只是想要問，這樣子經費算不算真的丟到水裡了呢？那我也想問，是不是因為這樣所以2.0不敢寫為什麼沒有聚焦在這些河川？"],["王司長嶽斌：我跟委員報告，雖然112年年底的水質狀況是呈現這樣，但是事實上我們有兩個工程因為在今年上半年才陸續完工跟啟用，分別是南崁溪跟二仁溪，目前的濃度都有大幅的下降，基本上，那個工程雖然當時是在年底完工了，但是正式的啟用是在今年的上半年，所以從今年的上半年我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的意思是說接下來才會更好？"],["王司長嶽斌：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：上一年是因為有一些工程的問題嗎？"],["王司長嶽斌：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，另外一張表格的數據顯示，從108年之後，只有111年稍微短暫下降，其他的各項評比都是偏高，尤其嚴重污染程度從2.58上升到3.31，然後懸浮固體數更是從135.7提高到183。部長，現在2.0還要編將近26億9,000萬，我想要請問這個具體的目標是什麼？因為從數據上面看起來都是不好的，總不能跟第1期一樣都要丟到水裡面吧？"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，我們不會，我們的重點還是放在嚴重污染河段的削減，像在112年的時候我們水質濃度的狀況會受到降雨跟水庫排放的狀況……"],["廖委員偉翔：請問你們具體的目標會是什麼？就是你們覺得這個經費最終所要達到的數值，因為我們可以看到的就是你的最終結果嘛！"],["王司長嶽斌：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛已經講了，很多的結果是不好的，那你現在跟我說因為有工程等等的問題。好，那我問你，你現在新的第2期的目標是什麼？"],["王司長嶽斌：我們是依據國家環境保護計畫，在119年我們要把所有嚴重污染的測站全部脫嚴，目前我們覺得這個目標因為在中南部的河川有一些畜牧業的污染而相較比較嚴重，還有一些生活污水因為下水道的管線沒有到達，所以對於嚴重污染測站的削減我們接下來的目標會著重在中南部河川的削減。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我想要講的事情是，因為你第1期前面那4年的二十多億，我們現在是預算會期，那二十多億表現的就不是……你們當然自評覺得好像很好，可是剛剛我也看到這個數據的變化是這樣。好，現在新的部分，我剛剛也講了，其實它的數據是這樣，所以我要提醒你，在未來4年你們對這筆經費究竟是有什麼具體目標？是不是在審預算的時候要提供出來讓大家知道？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["王司長嶽斌：是，我們會再跟委員報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，除了氨氮減量之外，還有另外一個問題就是河川垃圾，也就是所謂的川廢，請看簡報，日前報導綠色和平對我國的指標河川塑膠垃圾調查發現，塑膠垃圾的占比非常高，這些河廢沖到海裡又會變海廢，所以會讓我們臺灣許多海岸都布滿垃圾，清都清不完，請教部長要如何降低川廢的情形？"],["彭部長啓明：這個其實還是要從整個源頭的減量做起，所以我們會努力，不過以目前來說的話，其實要改變大家的習慣，的確我自己也去撿了很多在海邊、河邊的垃圾，雖然一直撿，還是一直都有。"],["廖委員偉翔：是啊！我再進一步就教，根據112年度「向海致敬」海岸清潔維護計畫，評核報告中的結論表示，分析海岸垃圾的組成，漁業相關廢棄物占總量大概七成，其中發泡浮球占29%、漁網繩索28%、硬塑膠浮球12%、塑膠瓶11%等等，這些有包含上述川廢沖刷到海中變成海岸廢棄物的塑膠垃圾嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，海廢是海廢。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是因為川廢也會跑到海廢去，所以我的意思就是有沒有包含？我想要請教的部分就是因為這個數據讓我覺得有一點落差，如果是綠色和平講的，它的報告統計塑膠川廢是占91%，到了海廢，其實海廢的部分就沒有占這麼多，我可不可以反過來推，意思就是因為海廢的量更大，是不是這樣說？因為海廢量非常大，所以川廢九成的塑膠料到了海廢之後，也沒有增加多少海廢的塑膠廢料，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我請署長來回答。"],["顏署長旭明：謝謝委員，剛才委員所提到的這些浮球等等之類的大概是養殖海洋活動所產生，其實近幾年來，我們在海岸的垃圾已經從每年2,200噸左右，降到大概每年900噸左右，有大幅的降低，這裡面很重要的就是這些漁網或是浮球，目前漁網是百分之百實名制，浮球也逐次改成……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，不好意思，我想請教，所以這些川廢到了海之後會變海廢，你們是不是也把它統計進去計算，所以他們兩個數據有一個很大落差？也就是說，在川廢時九成是塑膠垃圾，到了海岸之後，不是九成，可能是十幾、二十%，是不是代表海岸垃圾還是更多？所以川廢進來到海岸變海岸垃圾時，它的比例並沒有因此而增高？"],["彭部長啓明：因為海廢其實包含全世界各種地方……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，當然，所以我的意思就是說我這樣推論是對的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯、沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：是這個意思，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，一部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係，我再進一步來問，河川廢棄物沖刷到海中就會合併成海岸廢棄物，其中大部分還是有塑膠飲料的包裝，國內大型業者責無旁貸，想要請教部長，是不是也要要求飲料品牌廠商負起減塑責任呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們一直在推循環杯，儘量減少一次性的飲料杯，其實也希望通路的循環杯也一起來做這個事情……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我進一步想要看一下，在這次川廢統計中，非塑膠垃圾類的品牌排名，數量最多第一名大概是占了48%，其次是臺灣菸酒的9%，所以兩者相差六倍，我想要問，這是不是證明與臺灣菸酒的退瓶押金制創造民眾有確實回收的誘因有關呢？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，因為河川寶特瓶，我們有要求他們要綠色設計，而且要有回收的工作，也推動可以重複裝填，至於海洋廢棄物的部分，有時候不一定是我們臺灣的。"],["廖委員偉翔：我現在已經跟你討論到減塑的部分，剛剛我是就教數據的部分，我現在跟你討論到減塑的部分，因為塑膠公約中的減塑目標或是我們制定明年的減塑目標，明顯是達不到的，整體一次性塑膠品的產量不減反增，剛剛雖然你們說好像做了很多措施，可是相關數據，部長在媒體採訪的時候也承認。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：在傳統市場、零售商的限塑遇到強力的挑戰，同樣的邏輯，一昧依靠禁止顯然也不是一個好的效果，也有反效果，有沒有什麼能夠提供具有誘因的政策，讓廠商也願意進行改善呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實因為11月底就有塑膠公約，我們一直在密切注意塑膠公約的動態。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以現在還沒有比較……我意思是說，有沒有什麼具體的誘因、政策可以讓這些廠商也一起加入、進行改善？"],["彭部長啓明：目前第一個，還是綠色製造；第二個，我們邀請了很多的廠商包含外送業者等等，一直在討論這個問題，希望大家一起來配合塑膠公約。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外一個我想提，是不是也有可能至少增加補助？比如說降低有機再生生質塑料的生產成本，因為它的生產成本就相對比較高，這個部分是有可能的嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有機？我們這邊是有這個……"],["廖委員偉翔：有機再生生質塑料。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為它有在這個裡面，我們會來輔導它，看怎麼樣可以來替代我們原生的塑料。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為現在看起來的狀況，一般的塑膠製品成本就是很低，這種有機再生的生質塑料成本就是很高，這個的確是很環保的東西，但是兩個因為成本的關係，所以大家還是選擇製造一次性的塑膠製品，所以我剛剛提的就是這個部分，是不是可以請……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實我也去看了這些的產業，的確可能可以被鼓勵，但是那邊也有那邊的問題，包含價錢，還有它的產量問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：就是成本跟量的問題，所以我是說這個部分應該要去想用什麼政策方式去鼓勵他們使用。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，我們再努力，我們的確也去看了這些，但是還要一點點時間能夠把這個生態系建立起來。"],["廖委員偉翔：如果部長到時候有這方面進一步的研究，或是有什麼相關的政策也可以供本席辦公室參考。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題、沒問題。謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員。","接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}},{"id":"156889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156889","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3bb367a7384a689977fd7b6b5cb373b4dd5ae72a34e051796e97110b78856a118c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:07:22 - 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這個0.79億元那包括我們氣候署少了5349萬環管署也減少一成多大概是3.3億循環署也減少了四分之一大概是3.5億"},{"start":38.034,"end":59.368,"text":"部本部增加了3.3億、化學署增加了4億。中央政府總預算年年都在增加,已經突破了三兆。各部會都在增加,只有環境部不增反減,是所有部會倒數的前兩名。你可以接受嗎?"},{"start":60.368,"end":87.696,"text":"包括委員因為我第一次當公務人員那我來上任之後其實也很想增加預算但是我後來才知道說這個預算的編定其實在工建計畫或是科技計畫都要提早半年就要去做決定所以你是說明年就會增加就對了我現在一直督促我們的所有的私屬的同仁我們都要提新的計畫那我們的確希望在後年可以大幅度的增加那當然也希望委員給我們支持"},{"start":88.416,"end":117.677,"text":"好,我希望你要為你的那個業務該做的事情不能省略的還是要繼續加油啦因為委員你說的都是我心裡面的話明年的預算刪減你認為影響最大的業務是什麼目前因為我們這個經費雖然少主要是那個計畫跟計畫它有一個時間性剛好有些計畫這時候變少了到期了那有些計畫又輕增加了所以這個數字基本上我們對我們業務不會有直接的影響但是我還是期待有增加的機會啦"},{"start":118.297,"end":121.761,"text":"那個垃圾處理你覺得你可以先減少了3.3億"},{"start":125.439,"end":149.881,"text":"這個對我們因為這個垃圾的處理我們預計有12億在未來大概兩年內可以完成所以不會排擠到我們現在垃圾處理的你後面就是你之前的預算還有就對了還沒有還有還有就是這個是一個長期的包含了垃圾的處理有一個長期的預算那你覺得你你前陣子啊信信誕誕說這個兩年內要把53座的垃圾餐消失啊對結果我就看到最近的預算少了7億你說這個預算不會影響嗎"},{"start":152.441,"end":167.446,"text":"我請我們署長來回答好不好?謝謝委員那個垃圾部分我們是不同的科目在執行那這個12億在未來3年之內執行上面要減少這53座不會有問題"},{"start":168.266,"end":186.01,"text":"那我們這個預算有減少的大概是在我們多元垃圾處理計畫跟我們的文化廠那個部分目前的文化廠在整改的數目有稍微減少一點點我們依照實際的年度需求去編列你說那個垃圾餐你們少了5座嗎?你們是怎麼處理的?"},{"start":188.491,"end":210.89,"text":"我說你那5座是怎麼消失的?當然這5座就是比較小的,但是全部都是垃圾嗎?那個?都是垃圾,都可以焚化,都可以燒就對了但是跟委員特別報告,不是消失而是依照標準的掩埋操作把它操作完成,不影響環境所以那些打包的是已經不能進焚化爐的?"},{"start":213.332,"end":225.197,"text":"欸是以後還是可以那現在怎麼處理啊現在就是打包好符合這個那只是買起來看不到不是嗎先放在那裡先放在標準的掩埋場裡面不影響環境"},{"start":227.295,"end":231.039,"text":"公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算公務及基金預算"},{"start":243.772,"end":261.246,"text":"兩年。就是說我們目前到後年的年底要把它完成。就把這53座全部處理掉。53座就可以統統拿去燒就對了。那原本處理掉的勒?你現在這個五座山你不是說只是暫時掩埋嗎?還要挖起來?"},{"start":261.966,"end":289.856,"text":"沒有,我們是先不要露天裸露,不要露天裸露,但是我們先有的是把它蓋起來,或更好的篩分的處理,目前是先這樣做,那這個是兩年內要完成的事情,不要露天裸露。好啦,我希望我們不要做好幾段的工作啦,能夠一次解決就最好,要不然的話我看幾年之內我們的垃圾山又會跑出來,對不對,台灣很小欸,對不對,台灣不大,台灣哪有那麼多地方可以買垃圾。"},{"start":293.162,"end":304.45,"text":"另外我在想環管署針對空屋、水屋還有廢棄物查案明年只編了62萬的業務費、233萬的差旅費預計查空屋要520件、水屋要290件、噪音15件、廢棄物處理950件、毒性化學物質7件"},{"start":317.486,"end":333.609,"text":"那噪音稽查件數比今年少的40%那反而地方噪音稽查去年已經接近了11萬件那請問部長這麼少的預算要怎麼樣有效去控制這個東西你中央跟地方要怎麼分工來請我們署長來"},{"start":336.31,"end":362.23,"text":"公務員報告其實中央跟地方的分工他是依照原則上這些空水費除了環評監督是由中央來做主導以外那地方如果發生重大案件或技術設備不足的部分那我們才會前往去支援所以你是丟給地方就對了?蛤?丟給地方你說?不是丟給地方全責上依照那個"},{"start":362.93,"end":380.225,"text":"所有的環保法規在地方就是地方政府沒有錯所以他的責任是在地方就對了是是是那你們要做好監督的角色啊對好不好不然我看你這個這個就算是監督臺灣也你這個錢這個錢我真的不曉得你們要怎麼做是對不對這個這個經費有點少吧是"},{"start":383.646,"end":410.779,"text":"主要是我們人力的部門我怕你做不到事啊你沒有辦法完成預期的一個效果謝謝委員我們會努力請署長你這邊再加油啦另外循環署的預算本來就不夠明年再減少3.5億剩下11億元那地方受到很大的影響部長你知不知道我們苗栗後龍的資源回收處理廠因為中央政策改變而被迫關廠那好不容易找到用地那需要1.6億"},{"start":412.2,"end":434.505,"text":"那循環署卻只能補助這個2500萬這是今年才增加的一個限制還要必須要求他們跨區能夠處理那其他的公管頭份的資源回收場的計畫到目前都還沒有下文我不曉得你這個你要怎麼樣來推動呢我們先請循環署"},{"start":435.287,"end":460.084,"text":"我想因為在回收場部分我們是盡量說可以讓他可以這個明朗,如果說真的是需要,因為那個後龍那個是需要有一些土地水路保持齁,那所以說希望能夠有地方政府這邊也可以來支持一下。地方你苗栗苗栗就沒有錢,他的那個財政就非常困難哪有辦法去協助欸。你丟給你,你們一億多的東西你們給我兩千,兩千多萬我們怎麼做?"},{"start":462.225,"end":472.767,"text":"對不對?像這個東西你們既然要補助,既然要做,就做給他徹底。你丟在那邊我們到底是要整地還是幹嘛用呢?到時候還是不能用啊。"},{"start":473.917,"end":495.966,"text":"我希望說我們一個政策出來既然要做就把它做好嘛,你丟這個東西地方根本沒辦法處理的啊。好,包委員其實這個我會可能,因為我們現在在爭取後年的預算啦,希望可以再更多一點點。因為這個預算的這個申請要有一個時間的落差。好啦,請部長再多幫忙啦齁。沒問題。那最後齁,我想請問喔。"},{"start":496.986,"end":515.186,"text":"根據紐約時報的報導川普已經籌備行政命令將宣布退出巴黎氣候協定並擴大石化專炭和採礦及撤銷甲烷的排放費。那部長你認為這個大哥如果退出氣候協定陳真"},{"start":516.027,"end":544.534,"text":"我們台灣小弟要不要隨時跟上?我們正在密切注意所以我們會跟上嗎?基本上我們台灣很多的出口還是要到歐洲、美國而且我們是一個社會的一份子那美國可能也是一個短暫的所以我們正在密切觀察因為我看到這個如果他這個通過他確定了可能會帶動其他國家在跟進據我所知其實很多國家都一直在觀望那我們台灣是跑得比較快的"},{"start":545.094,"end":570.439,"text":" tatto比較快當然因為其他國家可能因為經濟的原因他不敢太衝太快那臺灣的話我也希望部長你能夠多為我們企業來考量這個部分呢當然我們我們如果當然要配合全世界的一個腳步也不要自己衝得太快好不好希望部長也能考慮一下臺灣這個整個的整理的經濟面不要被這個影響的好我們正在研究謝謝委員建議謝謝"},{"start":574.464,"end":575.214,"text":"謝謝邱政軍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1192,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時7分）謝謝主席，一樣有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我想請問一下，我們114年度環境部主管預算編列了77.18億，比今年還少了0.79億元，其中包括氣候署少了5,349萬；環管署也減少一成多，大概是3.3億；循環署也減少了四分之一，大概是3.5億；另外部本部增加了3.3億；化學署增加了4億。我想大家都看得到，我們中央政府的總預算年年都在增加，至今已經突破了3兆，各部會的預算都在增加，只有環境部不增反減，是所有部會中倒數的前兩名，你覺得你可以接受嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我第一次當公務人員，我上任之後其實也很想增加預算，但是我後來才知道，預算的編訂在公建計畫或是科技計畫都要提早半年就要做決定……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你是說明年就會增加就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：我現在一直督促我們所有司、署的同仁都要提新的計畫，我們的確希望在後年可以大幅度的增加，當然也需要委員給我們支持。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我希望你要為你的業務負責，該做的事情不能省略的，還是要繼續加油啦！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你說的都是我心裡面的話啦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請問，明年的預算刪減，你認為影響最大的業務是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們的經費減少主要是因為計畫跟計畫之間有一個時間性的落差，剛好有些計畫這時候變少了、到期了；有些計畫新增加了，所以這個數字基本上對於我們的業務不會有直接的影響，但是我還是期待有增加的機會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：垃圾處理那個部分你覺得你可以嗎？減少了3.3億。"],["彭部長啓明：因為垃圾的處理，我們預計有12億在未來大概兩年內可以完成，所以不會排擠到我們現在垃圾處理的預算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是你之前的預算還有就對了？還沒有用完？"],["彭部長啓明：還有、還有，其實這是一個長期的計畫，包含垃圾的處理有一個長期的預算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你前陣子信誓旦旦的說，兩年內要讓53座的垃圾山消失？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：結果我看到最近的預算少了7億，你說這個預算不會影響嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我請我們署長來回答，好不好？"],["顏署長旭明：是，謝謝委員。垃圾的部分我們是不同的科目在執行，12億這部分在未來3年內的執行上，要減少這53座不會有問題。我們的預算有減少的大概是在多元垃圾處理計畫跟焚化廠那個部分，目前焚化廠在整改的數目有稍微減少一點點，我們依照實際的年度需求去編列……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說的那個垃圾山，你們少了5座嘛，你們是怎麼處理？"],["顏署長旭明：是、是、是，會持續再……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我是說你那5座是怎麼消失的？"],["顏署長旭明：當然這5座就是比較小的，但是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那個全部都是垃圾嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是，把它包裹起來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：整個都可以焚化，都可以燒就對了？"],["顏署長旭明：但是跟委員特別報告，不是消失，而是依照標準的掩埋操作，把它操作完成，不影響環境。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是埋起來，所以那些打包的是已經不能進焚化爐的？"],["顏署長旭明：以後還是可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那現在怎麼處理，你先埋起來？"],["顏署長旭明：現在就是打包好，符合這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那只是埋起來看不到，不是嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：先放在那裡，先放在標準的掩埋場裡面，不影響環境。"],["邱委員鎮軍：標準的掩埋場？"],["顏署長旭明：是，我們掩埋場的標準是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那以後還要挖出來？"],["顏署長旭明：這些打包的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是說我們現在焚化爐的數量不夠？焚化爐的數量不夠，沒辦法燒是嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：現在正在整改。"],["彭部長啓明：現在量能不夠。"],["邱委員鎮軍：要多久能解決這個問題？"],["彭部長啓明：兩年，就是我們從目前到後年的年底要把它完成。"],["顏署長旭明：我們完成打包跟掩埋。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就把這53座全部處理掉？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：53座就可以通通拿去燒就對了？那原本處理掉的咧？你現在處理好的這5座山，你不是說只是暫時掩埋嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["顏署長旭明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還要挖起來？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，我們是先不要讓它露天裸露，但是我們有的是把它蓋起來，或是更好的篩分處理，目前是先這樣做，這是兩年內要完成的事情，不要露天裸露。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我希望我們不要把工作分好幾段去做，能夠一次解決最好，要不然的話，我看幾年之內我們的垃圾山又會跑出來，對不對？臺灣很小，對不對？臺灣不大，臺灣哪有那麼多地方可以埋垃圾？好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，環管署針對空污、水污還有廢棄物查案，明年只編了62萬的業務費，233萬的差旅費，預計要查空污520件，水污290件，噪音15件，廢棄物處理950件以及毒性化學物質7件。其中噪音稽查件數比今年少了40%，反而地方的噪音稽查件數去年已經接近11萬件，請問部長，這麼少的預算要怎麼樣有效去控制這個東西？中央跟地方要怎麼分工？"],["彭部長啓明：請我們署長來回答。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，其實中央跟地方有分工，原則上，這些空水費除了環評監督是由中央來做主導以外，地方如果發生重大案件或技術設備不足的部分，我們才會前往支援。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你是丟給地方去做就對了？"],["顏署長旭明：不是丟給地方。"],["彭部長啓明：權責上就是地方在處理。"],["顏署長旭明：權責是依照所有的環保法規，在地方就是地方政府，沒有錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以它的責任是在地方就對了？"],["顏署長旭明：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你們要做好監督的角色，好不好？"],["顏署長旭明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不然我看你這個就算是監督，你們這個錢，我真的不曉得你們要怎麼做。"],["顏署長旭明：是，我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個經費有點少吧！"],["顏署長旭明：主要是我們人力不足。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我怕你們做不了事，你沒有辦法完成預期的效果。"],["顏署長旭明：謝謝委員，我們會努力。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請署長再加油。"],["顏署長旭明：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，循環署的預算本來就不夠，明年再減少3.5億，剩下11億元，地方受到很大的影響，部長，你知不知道我們苗栗後龍的資源回收處理場因為中央政策改變而被迫關場？好不容易找到用地，需要1.6億，循環署卻只能補助2,500萬，這是今年才增加的限制，還要求他們必須能夠跨區處理，其他像公館、頭份的資源回收場計畫到目前都還沒有下文，你要怎麼樣來推動呢？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們先請循環署說明。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，我想在回收場部分我們是儘量讓它可以民營，因為後龍那個需要做一些水土保持，所以希望地方政府這邊也可以來支持一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說地方，可是苗栗就沒有錢，它的財政就非常困難，哪有辦法去協助呢？這是一億多的東西，你們只給兩千多萬，我們怎麼做？對不對？像這個東西，你們既然要補助，既然要做，就要做得澈底，你丟在那邊，我們到底是要整地還是做什麼用？到時候還是不能用啊！對不對？我希望我們提一個政策出來，既然要做，就把它做好嘛！你丟這個東西，地方根本沒辦法處理啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在在爭取後年的預算，希望可以再更多一點點，因為預算的申請會有一個時間的落差。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，請部長再多幫忙。"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後，我想請問，根據紐約時報的報導，川普已經籌備行政命令，將宣布退出巴黎氣候協定，並擴大石化、鑽探和採礦及撤銷甲烷的排放費，部長，這位大哥如果退出氣候協定成真，我們臺灣小弟要不要隨時跟上？"],["彭部長啓明：我們正在密切注意。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們會跟上嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，我們臺灣很多的出口還是要到歐洲、美國，而且我們是國際社會的一份子，美國這個可能也只是短暫的，所以我們正在密切觀察。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為如果它這個通過了、確定了，可能會帶動其他國家再跟進，據我所知，其實很多國家都一直在觀望，我們臺灣是跑得比較快的，當然其他國家可能因為經濟的原因所以不敢衝太快，我也希望部長能夠多為我們臺灣的企業來考量，這個部分我們當然要配合全世界的腳步，也不要自己衝得太快，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：希望部長也能考慮一下臺灣整體的經濟面，不要被這個影響到。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，我們正在研究，謝謝委員的建議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員，等一下在蘇清泉委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 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謝謝總裁我想今天的幾個最近這段時間的所有媒體大標都還是在談川普強勢回歸到白宮之後整個全世界因應川普2.0這個會期有未來整個經濟局勢、國內的變化當然台灣也不可能免除以外今天我看到媒體有一個大標寫強勢回歸的川普台積電對白宮沒有說不的權利"},{"start":43.112,"end":65.526,"text":"對台灣來說不只台積電恐怕有更多的議題我們恐怕被動式的恐怕要去做後續的因應跟處理所以看到你的簡報當中但是我必須還是要提醒剛才無論是回應吳秉瑞委員就是說今年的我們的跟美國的順差其實那個數字其實要非常的精確因為所有的評估報告來自於"},{"start":66.968,"end":82.066,"text":"的數字,我們到今年年底恐怕都會超過這個650億美金左右而且這個是這個數字是川普當時就任第一任的超過10倍以上以川普如果看到這個數字"},{"start":84.108,"end":104.484,"text":"我就要跟總裁提一下以川普看到這樣的數字他可能第一關稅一定要加軍購一定要多買無論保護費或關稅的部分所以這件事情我看到總裁你有提到就是說在簡報裡面有提到說後續包括我們處理"},{"start":106.205,"end":131.591,"text":"我們貿易對美貿易順差的狀況我們有幾個方向農產品、能源政策還有我們的軍購的部分那軍購的部分那你覺得應該買多少才是一個合理因為川普要的是GDP佔10%啊那我們每一年我們的總預算才2兆多今年有3兆多10%的話就將近2.678兆左右那"},{"start":136.209,"end":156.371,"text":"你覺得多少才是合理的?我不是這一方面的專家所以我也沒辦法很抱歉我沒辦法來回答但是總裁你提這三個方向那你應該有一些具體的想法因為這三項目標沒有達到可能我們就會變成"},{"start":157.933,"end":162.814,"text":"川普口中的我們是匯率操縱國我們目前匯率操縱國的三大要件檢視的標準無論是美商有三大標準對美商的服務貿易的順差如果超過150億美元還有包括我們經常這樣的順差GDP比率超過3%有三項我們已經超過兩項了"},{"start":182.24,"end":188.903,"text":"所以我們隨便就會變成被指控我們是貿易操縱我們是匯率操縱我這樣講沒錯如果看這三個指標的話你怎麼不會川普他說他看這三個數字你就是超過你怎麼不會我只有兩個而已啊現在我們只有兩個而已啊"},{"start":202.268,"end":204.349,"text":"我們還沒有三個阿你覺得你跟他有這樣討價還價的餘地嗎?沒有,不是你剛才跟回答賴世保委員說你跟拜登政府的財政部部長很熟但是你跟川普的財政部部長"},{"start":219.073,"end":219.953,"text":"我剛剛沒有講這句話我就說我們跟美國的財政部會就這個匯率報告我們每年大概會有兩次的諮商"},{"start":234.686,"end":259.257,"text":"我沒有就說我每年就會...總裁沒關係總裁因為我時間很短今天議題很重要媒體也都在關注新的政府上任有新的財政部長被升特我不知道你未來還有沒有機會維持什麼一年兩次以川普他的美國優先主義他的貿易保護政策未來是一個什麼樣的狀況全球各國的金融界"},{"start":260.658,"end":285.289,"text":"其實都是一邊哀嚎也在準備各式各樣的方案所以我剛才才說不要太過有自信你現在覺得說我匯率操縱國三項指標我只有兩項我沒有第三項川普哪輪到你說你只有兩項沒有三項他恐怕輪不到你這樣子講所以你提到我們目前今年貿易的順差已經對美已經超過到年底已經超過650億美元"},{"start":287.19,"end":306.688,"text":"我們的因應方式如果達不到因為從昨天顧立雄國防部部長回應說我們也不可能超過3%GDP我們買軍購不可能超過3%因為沒有錢農產品我們要買小黃玉國人也沒有能力我們人也不夠多也能買的也有限能源政策"},{"start":307.409,"end":325.582,"text":"我們更有對其他國家我不知道這可能有很多的國與國之間的不同的思考在裡面其實能買能不能買這麼多所以很多事情不是你說了算我們想說了算所以目前三項匯率操縱國有兩項就在裡面所以我問你怎麼辦"},{"start":327.372,"end":330.375,"text":"你的因應策略什麼處理?當然啦,就是說,第一個,這兩項都是比較辛苦的啦。第一個就是說,我們要對美國的順差要把它降低下來。但是呢,問題是在於就是說,因為美國對我們的自動性產品它就很需要啊。它很需要,它只有我們台灣有啊。"},{"start":349.625,"end":374.078,"text":"總裁你講這些我都知道所以我問你怎麼辦你今天來這邊是回答我怎麼辦這個所以呢也就是說我們我就說事實上呢也不是說川普的時代我們沒有跟他諮商過事實上川普上任的四年我們也是幾乎是每年兩次跟他諮商川普的川普再強勢回白宮我相信跟第一任也有可能不一樣應該會不一樣是啦是啦沒有錯啦沒有錯啦我們也沒有就是說錯就是一樣的"},{"start":378.161,"end":392.298,"text":"所以你的因應策略是什麼你還是沒有回應我啊那當然啦就是說第一項呢這個就是說我們必須要就是說如何降低下來而且呢要磋商磋商也沒辦法就是說專業來來跟他磋商為什麼因為那是貿易的問題"},{"start":396.182,"end":415.563,"text":"總裁我聽到最後我覺得你都是沒有辦法好那我再問你一個問題當時台積電張忠謀提兩年前的時候提到說全球化的貿易已經死了那當時你覺得說他提的非常極端可能應該不是這樣子那你覺得川普在強勢回白宮之後對全球的貿易化"},{"start":417.352,"end":445.281,"text":"已經死了這句話你現在還有不同的看法嗎?我總覺得可能會再更碎片化如果說是Globalization就是說因為Globalization、De-Globalization就是說是去全球化事實上這是一個程度的問題那死掉的意思呢我可能我都把它解讀很極端就是說就沒有全球化就沒有彼此就是說大家只有彼此互相來貿易"},{"start":447.101,"end":448.642,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我們的廠商他的因應能力很好的"},{"start":467.346,"end":467.806,"text":"二、審查中華民國11年度中華民國11年度"},{"start":483.379,"end":483.899,"text":"不不不不不不不"},{"start":502.006,"end":504.368,"text":"所以我請問你到底我們現在面對川普在強勢回白宮之後"},{"start":522.057,"end":542.595,"text":"你覺得我們到底要注意什麼?你覺得它跟第一任最大的不同接下來會是什麼?你看到的,你有看到你才有辦法因應嗎?對啦,不過我們的因應就是說救中央銀行我只能就是說救我們中央銀行的因應啊那所以呢我們就是提出了三個衝擊那然後呢我們三個因應嘛"},{"start":543.255,"end":549.277,"text":"你三個硬硬沒有辦法解決我剛剛請問過農產品、軍購、電燃器所以這個是跨部會要開的一個硬硬隊所以今天張偉很聰明很有智慧排了這樣的議題啊所以這就是灰犀牛的效應我非常遺憾今天我們排了一個這麼重要的議題我相信"},{"start":571.864,"end":578.01,"text":"國安部、外交部、輪委會其他的部會呢都是在密切的注意川普的一個貿易政策之後呢要怎麼來因應那就中央銀行的一個立場呢我們第一個就是說他對我們台灣經濟的衝擊會是什麼樣對我們的金融市場的經濟是什麼樣我現在看的是灰犀牛的效應我們的政府提不出指出更好的方式跟方法我目前沒看"},{"start":599.428,"end":603.17,"text":"主委部長對外的因應方式我很遺憾剛才沒看到對內的因應方式我們的這個金融營業稅的部分因為財經財經"},{"start":627.105,"end":654.241,"text":"之前我們都覺得我們的金融營業稅的部分因為我們金融業體質非常好是好學生在我看來其實因為他沒有進扣的抵稅額所以齊頭市的平等5%的營業稅叫做齊頭市的不平等我是這樣看因為他沒有進扣的可以抵扣的這個項目部長我是這樣子看那但是部長回應說今年不調降因為體質很好我在我看來就是懲罰好學生"},{"start":655.758,"end":673.537,"text":"這其實不好的你有機會調降但是我們現在面臨到我們現在金融業接下來全球都在因應挑戰包括OECD國家也都是他們甚至把它調降甚至有些是歸零調整為零所以前一陣子你回應說部長說金融業稅不調降還是5%你說尊重"},{"start":677.079,"end":704.589,"text":"我覺得前段時間可以說尊重啦但是因為我今天時間已經到了我還是要提醒金融營業稅的部分我覺得因應全球不同的變化跟狀況我覺得應該要做階段性的思考過去面對全球金融衝擊在2012年的時候雷曼風暴我們好像有調整為零或甚至調到兩趴那接下來的狀況我希望部長、主委在現場"},{"start":706.328,"end":712.344,"text":"有沒有可能有一些彈性是不同的變化我們把金融一頁稅放一些彈性未來去做評估"},{"start":713.82,"end":736.441,"text":"部長你先回應因為是你強勢的說一定要5%在我看來齊頭市的公平就是叫做不公平跟委員報告金融營業稅原來是有2%要歸到金融業特別準備金那到今年落日了所以在稅率上目前來說就是5%也就是其實金融業只有銀保本業的部分是5%那所以這個部分金融營業稅這個部分並沒有規劃要調降是"},{"start":739.364,"end":762.106,"text":"那當然委員剛剛提醒說整個國際局勢的一些整整變化等等那未來我們會當然也會持續和金管會一起來觀察國際整個情勢的一個變動影響好我最後10秒主委不要忘記你今天來的目的其實你從產業界你可能看到的問題更多你過去的初衷是什麼我覺得要堅持"},{"start":762.907,"end":763.808,"text":"李坤誠委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時13分）謝謝召委，今天安排這個題目非常的重要，難得財委會三個最重要的部會主管都在現場，我可不可以先請央行的楊總裁？"],["主席：請央行楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝總裁。最近這段時間所有的媒體大標都還是在談川普強勢回歸到白宮之後，全世界因應川普2.0這個灰犀牛的未來經濟局勢以及國內的變化，當然臺灣也不可能免除於外，今天我看到媒體有一個大標寫著：強勢回歸的川普，台積電對白宮沒有說不的權利。對臺灣來說，不只台積電，有更多的議題我們恐怕是被動式的要去做後續的因應跟處理。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：我看到你的簡報當中也有分析，但我還是必須提醒，剛才無論是回應吳秉叡委員……今年我們跟美國的順差，其實那個數字要非常精確，因為所有的評估報告來自於精確的數字。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：我們到今年年底恐怕都會超過650億美金左右，而且這個數字超過川普就任第一任時的10倍以上，我就要跟總裁提一下，以川普看到這樣的數字，第一，他可能關稅一定要加、軍購一定要多買，無論保護費或關稅的部分。所以這件事情我看到總裁在簡報裡面有提到，後續包括我們處理對美貿易順差的狀況，我們有幾個方向，農產品、能源政策，還有軍購……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：那軍購的部分，你覺得應該買多少才合理？因為川普要的是占GDP10%啊！我們每一年總預算才兩兆多，今年有三兆多，10%就將近2.6、2.7、2.8兆左右，那你覺得多少才是合理的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我不是這一方面的專家啦，所以很抱歉，我沒辦法來回答委員……"],["李委員彥秀：但是總裁，你提這三個方向應該有一些具體的想法，因為這三項目標沒有達到，可能我們就會變成川普口中的匯率操縱國……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！不會啦！"],["李委員彥秀：目前匯率操縱國的檢視，有三大標準嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對，對。"],["李委員彥秀：對美商服務貿易的順差如果超過150億美元，還有包括我們經常帳的順差GDP比率超過3%，共有三項，我們已經超過兩項了耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對，對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我們隨便就會被指控是匯率操縱國，我這樣講沒錯？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不會。"],["李委員彥秀：如果看這三個指標的話……"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，第一個……"],["李委員彥秀：怎麼不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！"],["李委員彥秀：川普他看這三個數字啊，你就是超過，怎麼不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我只有兩個而已，現在我們只有兩個而已，我們還沒有三個啊！"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得你跟他有這樣討價還價的餘地嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不是……"],["李委員彥秀：你剛才回答賴士葆委員，你跟拜登政府的財政部部長很熟……"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒有說跟……"],["李委員彥秀：川普的財政部部長貝森特，你熟嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有，沒有，我剛剛沒有講這一句話喔！我就說我們跟美國的財政部就這個匯率報告，每年大概會有兩次的諮商，我沒有說我每年會跟美國……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，總裁，因為我時間很短，今天議題很重要，媒體也都在關注。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，是。"],["李委員彥秀：新的政府上任，有新的財政部長貝森特，我不知道你未來還有沒有機會維持什麼一年兩次啦，以川普他的美國優先主義，他的貿易保護政策，未來是一個什麼樣的狀況，全球各國的金融界其實都是一片哀嚎，也在準備各式各樣的方案，所以我剛才才說不要太過有自信。你現在覺得匯率操縱國三項指標我只有兩項，我沒有第三項，川普哪輪得到你說只有兩項沒有三項，他恐怕輪不到你這樣子講。所以你提到我們今年對美貿易的順差到年底已經超過650億美元……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我們的因應方式如果達不到……因為昨天國防部部長顧立雄回應說我們買軍購不可能超過百分之三的GDP，因為沒有錢。農產品，我們要買「黃小玉」，國人也沒有能力，我們人也不夠多，能買的也有限。能源政策，我們更有對其他國家……我不知道，這可能又有很多國與國之間不同的思考在裡面，其實能買、能不能買這麼多？很多事情不是你說了算，我們說了算。目前三項匯率操縱國的標準，我們有兩項就在裡面，所以我問你怎麼辦，你的因應策略怎麼處理？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，這兩項都是比較辛苦的，第一個就是我們對美國的順差要把它降低下來，但是問題在於因為美國對我們的資通訊產品，它就很需要啊！很需要，但就只有我們臺灣有啊！"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，你講這些我都知道，所以我問你怎麼辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦……"],["李委員彥秀：你今天來這邊是回答我怎麼辦。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以也不是說川普的時代我們沒有跟他諮商過，事實上川普上任的4年，我們也幾乎是每年兩次跟他諮商……"],["李委員彥秀：川普再強勢回白宮，我相信跟第一任也有可能不一樣，應該會不一樣……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，是啦，沒有錯啦，我們也沒有說就是一樣的，我們沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：對，所以你的因應策略是什麼，你還是沒有回應我啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，第一項就是我們必須思考如何降低下來，而且要磋商，磋商也沒辦法由中央銀行來跟他磋商，為什麼？因為那是貿易的問題，中央銀行只有匯率的問題……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，聽到最後我覺得你都是沒有辦法……"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！"],["李委員彥秀：好，我再問你一個問題，台積電張忠謀兩年前的時候，提到全球化的貿易已經死了，當時你覺得他提得非常極端，應該不是這樣子，那你覺得川普再強勢回白宮之後「全球的貿易化已經死了」這句話，你現在還有不同的看法嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我總覺得可能會再更碎片化，因為deglobalization去全球化，事實上這是一個程度的問題，而死掉的意思呢？我可能都把它解讀很極端啦，就是沒有全球化，大家只有彼此互相貿易，就是這樣子而已，沒有是一個……"],["李委員彥秀：你之前回應說廠商有很多的彈性，自然可以去因應這樣的策略跟狀況……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，是啊，沒有錯啊！"],["李委員彥秀：但是你覺得我們現在許多的廠商有辦法去抵擋這個關稅俠──川普2.0的衝擊嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上我們廠商的因應能力是很好的，比我個人所想像的都還好、還優秀……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：廠商，所有的業界、產業界是在辛苦裡面求生存，因為它要活下去……"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然。"],["李委員彥秀：他養這麼多的員工……"],["楊總裁金龍：就是因為他們要求生存，他們才很積極的思考要如何來……"],["李委員彥秀：它不得不，但是身為國家最重要的財經三長，今天都在現場，我聽到現在為止，我聽不到有任何解決的方案，這就是所謂的灰犀牛效應耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦，不會，不會！"],["李委員彥秀：我們知道灰犀牛已經來了，但是我們卻拿不出方法，這才是我們最擔心的，總裁，川普是商人的性格，這句話你同不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，應該可以很合理的說他是一個商人的性格，也可以啦！"],["李委員彥秀：所以我請問你，現在面對川普再強勢回白宮之後，你覺得我們到底要注意什麼？你覺得他跟第一任最大的不同，接下來會是什麼？你看到的，你有看到你才有辦法因應嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，不過我們的因應，我只能說就我們中央銀行的因應，就是提出了三個衝擊，然後三個因應嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：你三個因應，沒有辦法解決，我剛剛已經問過農產品、軍購、天然氣……"],["楊總裁金龍：那不是我們中央銀行要因應的。"],["李委員彥秀：這個是跨部會要有的一個應對，所以今天召委很聰明，很有智慧排了這樣的議題啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我跟委員報告，有些不是我們的職權，我們能夠在這邊講得很多嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：所以這就是灰犀牛的效應，我非常遺憾的就是今天我們排了一個這麼重要的議題……"],["楊總裁金龍：我相信國防部、外交部、農業部等其他的部會，都是在密切的注意川普的貿易政策，並且思考之後要怎麼來因應。就中央銀行的立場，第一個，對我們臺灣經濟的衝擊會是什麼樣，對我們的金融市場……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁你不用回應，你回答到現在，我看到的是灰犀牛效應，我們的政府提不出更好的方式跟方法，我目前沒看……"],["楊總裁金龍：不，不，有些時候……"],["李委員彥秀：好，時間先暫停一下，我可不可以請金管會主委跟財政部部長？召委，我要再一分鐘。"],["主席：好，請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主委、部長，對外的因應方式，我很遺憾剛才沒看到；對內的因應方式，我們金融營業稅的部分，因為財經、財經嘛……之前，我們都覺得金融營業稅的部分，因為金融業體質非常好，是好學生，在我看來其實因為它沒有進扣的抵稅額，所以齊頭式的平等，5%的營業稅叫做齊頭式的不平等，我是這樣看，因為它沒有進扣可以抵扣的項目，部長，我是這樣子看。但是部長回應說，今年不調降，因為體質很好，在我看來就是懲罰好學生。體質不好的有機會調降，但是我們接下來面臨全球金融業都在因應的挑戰，包括OECD國家也都是，他們把它調降，甚至有些是歸零、調整為零。前一陣子部長回應說，金融營業稅不調降，還是5%，你說尊重，我覺得前一段時間可以說尊重啦，但是因為我今天時間已經到了，我還是要提醒金融營業稅的部分，我覺得因應全球不同的變化跟狀況，應該要做階段性的思考。","過去面對全球金融衝擊，在2012年的時候，雷曼風暴我們好像有調整為零，甚至調到2%，面對接下來的狀況，部長、主委在現場，有沒有可能有一些彈性，視不同的變化就金融營業稅放一些彈性，未來去評估？部長，你先回應，因為是你強勢的說一定要5%，在我看來，齊頭式的公平就是叫做不公平。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，金融營業稅原來是有2%要歸到金融業特別準備金，到今年落日了，所以目前在稅率上意思就是5%，其實也就是金融業只有銀保本業的部分是5%。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以金融營業稅這個部分並沒有規劃要調降。當然，委員剛剛提醒整個國際局勢的變化等等，未來我們當然也會持續和金管會一起來觀察國際情勢的變動影響。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我最後10秒。主委不要忘記你今天來的目的，其實從產業界，你能看到的問題更多，你過去的初衷是什麼，我覺得要堅持，部長前一陣子回應我的，我並不滿意，金融業體質很好，但是我真的再一次強調，齊頭式的平等其實叫做不平等，因為它沒有進項的抵扣稅額可以抵扣，這一塊我希望財政部持續做滾動式檢討跟討論，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝彥秀。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},{"id":"156887","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156887","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3be759bfdaecbec59cf5866fb8dd1f93155ae72a34e051796e02603dcc7e4fc98c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:11:27 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10:26:23","影片長度":"00:14:56","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案。\n二、審查114年度教育部主管47所國立大學校院校務基金、國立臺灣大學附設醫院作業基金、國立成功大學附設醫院作業基金、國立陽明交通大學附設醫院作業基金、教育部所屬機構作業基金、國立高級中等學校校務基金、學產基金、運動發展基金、私立高級中等以上學校退場基金。\n三、審查114年度行政法人國家運動訓練中心預算案。\n四、審查114年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案。\n（僅進行詢答，相關預算提案請於11月20日下午2時前提出）\n【11月11日及14日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:11:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:26:23+08:00","duration":896,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-2-22-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.84909375,"end":4.6040937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.822218750000001,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.30721875,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.48409375,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.660968750000002,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.84534375,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.566593750000003,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.76221875,"end":134.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.82846875,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.87909375,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.83221875,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.07909375,"end":264.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.52534375,"end":277.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.89909375,"end":305.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.93409375000005,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.03534375000004,"end":296.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.44034375,"end":296.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.41784375000003,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.11346875000004,"end":321.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.37346875000003,"end":336.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.35159375,"end":325.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.61284375,"end":331.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.53534375000004,"end":338.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.65346875,"end":336.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.75471875,"end":337.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.88534375,"end":339.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.16784375000003,"end":363.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.50159375000004,"end":385.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.38846875,"end":390.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.44284375,"end":393.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.39159375,"end":547.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.65721875,"end":393.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.0972187500001,"end":550.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.71284375,"end":587.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.19721875,"end":586.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.1965937500001,"end":597.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.92596875,"end":594.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.4184687500001,"end":601.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.85659375,"end":615.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.20471875,"end":651.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.65471875,"end":656.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.3840937500001,"end":658.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.4890937499999,"end":676.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.8703437500001,"end":782.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.6047187500001,"end":825.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.2734687500001,"end":854.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.9565937500001,"end":863.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":854.3953437500002,"end":854.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":854.42909375,"end":854.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":855.44159375,"end":856.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":861.6515937500001,"end":864.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":864.14909375,"end":869.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":869.1272187500001,"end":875.0672187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.99971875,"end":882.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":877.49721875,"end":878.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":878.5603437500001,"end":878.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":881.26034375,"end":881.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.6440937500001,"end":885.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.7959687500002,"end":884.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":885.93471875,"end":891.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8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頁到底什麼樣的執行我們會認定它是失控它是不當的我們再來看下一頁"},{"start":742.581,"end":770.363,"text":"過去呢111年體育署的6年足球計畫用參賽補助的方法吸引非足球隊伍的報名換隊費造成決算超支1億的問題監察院已經提出糾正了在下一頁但是到了今年現在才11月中體育署在國際體育交流的部分已預算3億9但是執行已經是6億4超支了2億5千萬"},{"start":771.864,"end":791.469,"text":"所以今年下半年很多原本要出國的團隊跑來跟我們說他們被體育署告知因為預算的問題所以沒有辦法同意出國或是本來已經通過計劃被喊停如同民間所說的是不是運發基金是體育署官員的小金庫我認為這一定不是部長所可以接受的"},{"start":792.209,"end":811.25,"text":"對照去年體育署宣布的國際賽事補助單項協會如果有盈餘不用繳回那我認為問題更大作為立法委員我必須要拜託部長嚴肅提醒教育部體育署不行也不應該成為單項協會的提款機而且相關的事情我覺得越來越多"},{"start":811.69,"end":833.037,"text":"但我們對待選手卻越來越小氣有太多選手的狀況需要被解決但是單項協會把我們政府部門當成提款機的情況卻越來越嚴重部長我可不可以讓您簡單回答一下謝謝委員的一個提醒我想我非常認同委員剛才所說的我們應該在整個程序招標的一些包含價格應該"},{"start":834.897,"end":851.335,"text":"公務人員應該有先期的了解訂出公開招標合理的價格或相關規範包含補助因為我也知道COVID-19以後許多大型的國際賽會確實是比較多的但是這跟經費上是"},{"start":857.441,"end":857.661,"text":"內部檢討內機內控"},{"start":875.049,"end":875.229,"text":"陳培宇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":343,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時11分）謝謝主席，有請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：主席好、委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安。有很多題目，我今天就抓幾個是我們在看教育部新年度預算的時候覺得比較有疑慮的地方，第一個，關於家庭教育的部分，部長，你應該記得我從總質詢就開始一直在談家庭教育。我們幫教育部快速算了一下，目前的編列是比去年多了278億，可是在終身教育的部分只編了80億。按照教育部書面資料的說明，你們說比去年多了百分之八點七，可是相較於整體的教育部經費，我必須要說只編了80億的困境會是什麼呢？終身教育原本在教育部的理解與一般人的理解當中，應該是涵蓋學生離開校園一直到生命結束，都是屬於終身教育的部分。再來，如果是這樣，我們來看你們目前的編法，終身教育大部分的錢都被放在圖書館、博物館、社教機構等相關館舍上，實體投資在教育上面的經費只有13.8億，其中家庭教育相關經費只有三億多一點點，等於教育部明年要放在家庭教育的預算只占整體教育經費不到千分之一。","可是不論是全教總、老師團體們或很多家長們都已經提出訴求，教育部必須要承擔起家庭教育的責任，所以現在教育部用來推行家庭教育的預算，再把各縣市政府的補助扣掉，其實留在中央的只剩下六千多萬，而這六千多萬是整體教育部要以中央的角度去支持家庭教育的部分，部長，你覺得這樣可以嗎？這是一個很大的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：家庭教育確實是整個學校教育能夠順利推展的穩定力量，這個部分如果經費上有所需，我們內部會看看怎麼樣來協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得非常多年以來，整個國家都認為生養小孩的責任在家庭、在父母親，但是我們也知道這幾年來已經很多家長提出他們的困境、提出他們的需求，我們政府有沒有聽到他們正在求救？我認為教育部不可以再用過往的觀念，認為小孩生了是家庭自己的責任、是爸媽自己的責任。我們昨天一直在跟勞動部談彈性放假、彈性工時，讓家長有更多彈性可以照顧小孩，回到教育部這邊，我認為家庭教育的預算實在是不能再這樣編下去，當然立法委員沒有職權去擴張這個預算，但是我們必須要積極的要求教育部要再更積極，我認為相關的研議必須要繼續。","我們來看從家庭教育預算不足衍生另外一個荒謬的問題，這是這兩天我們才收到的陳情，在六都某一個縣市要推動過渡性教育措施試辦計畫，其中有一個要點竟然是請學校輔導人員、本市學輔諮商中心專業輔導人員持續輔導諮商工作，這沒有問題，但是它還叫這些人去做家庭輔導工作，強化家長（主要照顧者）的親職教養能力。我們在修學輔法的時候已經發現學輔諮商中心工作量能超級大負載了，結果六都某一個主要縣市竟然在過渡性教育措施裡面還要求學輔諮商中心的人去做家庭教育，一定是因為他們也意識到家庭教育很重要。可是如同我剛剛跟部長說的，這個辦法不僅荒謬，更在在顯示了家庭教育的困境，所以部長，這件事情也很荒謬，你自己看到有沒有覺得很荒謬？這是這兩天我們才收到的喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心過渡性教育的小孩，我想他確實是需要有更多的一些協助，事後我們再來瞭解地方的想法。"],["陳委員培瑜：這只是其中一個，我認為你們應該還要去通盤檢討到底22個縣市政府裡面有多少學輔諮商中心，會因著發現家庭教育很重要，會因著發現學輔諮商中心的工作量能太多，而要求學輔諮商中心的人繼續去強化家庭教育？但縣市政府本來就有家庭教育中心，它本來就已經拿走了錢、拿走了預算，但是家庭教育中心該做的事情不做，推給學輔諮商中心，在在顯示家庭教育的困境，不是嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我完全同意，因為各地方縣市政府本來都有家庭教育中心。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我不知道是縣市政府誤會了學輔諮商中心的功能，還是放任家庭教育中心該作為而沒有作為？甚至這個事情最後我要拿到這邊跟教育部討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員所提的這個個案、這個案例，在我們更完整瞭解之後……"],["陳委員培瑜：我認為它不會只是個案，22個縣市政府到底有多麼荒謬……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們先以這個個案來瞭解地方上的一些想像、困境或者它需要什麼，我們再來調整……"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得就是整體家庭教育的需求出現了，而家庭教育中心承接不住，在中央的終身教育司又沒有意識到自己在這件事情上有監督的責任、有編列預算的責任，甚至我們還聽到教育部的人告訴我們就是沒有錢，沒有錢就不能做，如果是這樣，我們是不是乾脆就放棄家庭教育這一塊？我們正式對外宣告，家庭教育不再是我們教育部的責任，我認為這一定不是部長的想法，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實我進來的時候也看到了家庭教育中心的功能，應該怎麼樣更積極來推動各項親職之間許多發展性的功能，所以其實在這個部分我還特別拜託司長，未來一定要有更積極的一些……"],["陳委員培瑜：從今年的預算看起來，我還是看不出積極的作為，部長，我想我們後續會再來討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：明年我在這個部分一定會有一個更積極的……"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長非常正面的承諾，所以你看到了這個困境，所以我希望可以在兩個月內，提供相關的書面報告，給予整體的教育及文化委員會委員，我相信所有委員都會關心家庭教育。","閱讀的事情，我已經跟部長談過很多次了，我現在先回頭談2到6歲，因為現在是屬於教育部主管，2到6歲其實是高等認知功能系統的關鍵期，不管是他們的閱讀、數學運算、邏輯思考，在2到6歲這個階段快速的發展。如果我們回到所謂的幼兒園階段，到底孩子們可以有什麼呢？我們來看預算，因為今天要談預算，在教育部的預算中，0零到2歲有所謂嬰幼兒閱讀禮袋，大概花了300萬，是由國臺圖來執行；或者是2到6歲，我們其實也沒有看到國教署有任何的態度；可是6到7歲，我們知道你們有了新生閱讀禮袋、有充實國民中小學圖書計畫，在國教法通過的時候，我們有了3億，但我要先說，我覺得還是太少；接下來閱推計畫有7,500萬；還有藏書及專業人員的預算是在地方政府，可是整體的預算來看，在閱讀的部分，其實落在教育部真的很少很少，我一再一再一再的拜託部長，部長，你一定清楚，面對3C的困境，我們除了增加校內的遊戲場，增加多元課程的可能，我們回到家庭教育，但是如何把閱讀作為一種學習方法，協助現在數位時代的小孩，我覺得已經是刻不容緩的任務，所以我要再次提出，閱讀資源匱乏及在這件事情上，教育部沒有認知到這是自己現在應該做的事情，我覺得這是最大的問題。","目前我們找到了幼兒園及其分班基本設施設備標準，很棒，裡面我們看到了有寢室、遊戲空間、儲藏空間、配膳室、觀察室、資源回收區、生態教學園區、其他有利教學活動之空間，可是我們沒有談到圖書室。其實我們在中小學是有圖書室的，甚至教育部過往每年都有花錢對於所謂社區圖書館的概念，去改善學校裡面的圖書館，可是我們在幼兒園的部分卻完全沒有，如果我們認為閱讀是從小就要培養起的一個學習方法，甚至去面對3C時代的焦慮，我認為我們要從幼兒園就開始。所以我也會積極提出，在幼教法裡面，我們也沒有相關人員的培育，因為閱讀作為一個方法，確實它需要一些專業的訓練，我認為這也是這個時代我們大人要面對的困境。所以這個部分，我們也會再跟教育部持續的溝通，不管是在相關預算或是相關法規的盤點，這個部分可不可以請教育部在3個月內提供相關規劃報告？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告。我上任以後，確實有要求我們國教署這個閱讀運動要繼續，我們在2000年開始推閱讀運動，我也認可委員剛才所提的閱讀對兒童認知的發展，我想那是最基礎的，所以我們會透過全國教育局處首長會議，也鼓勵我們地方各級中小學學校的圖書館搬到一樓，然後成為一個社區的圖書館"],["陳委員培瑜：對，這個我知道，教育部過去都有在做，我剛剛提到幼兒的部分，可能是我們過去忽略了，可是因為2到6歲這一段，我覺得現在既然加進教育部的業務……"],["鄭部長英耀：幼兒這個部分，未來我們來加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。接下來我們講體育的預算，部長，你知道去泰國一張機票多少錢嗎？沒關係，你不知道，其實我也不知道，但是在看了荒謬的陳情後，我才知道。目前去泰國來回機票一張大概是1萬到1萬2,000，在體育署的學校新南向計畫裡面，大概也是這個預算，體育署單項協會移訓參賽中，泰國機票平均一張是1萬3,000到2萬4,000，當然會因為運動種類的不同，使用內容的不同而有所差異，但這也都還算是合理可接受的範圍，1萬3,000到2萬4,000。","部長，我們來看一下足協，他們泰國機票一張買3萬塊，去鹿兒島3萬3,000，如果此時此刻，我拿3萬塊去網站上訂票，我可以訂到中華航空商務艙的票。所以我想問部長，你覺得這個經費使用有沒有問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想詳細的部分是不是能夠先請……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，我再讓你往下看，在相關招標公告裡面，我們認為它漫天開價。它認為這是有經過招標的，可是讓臺灣足球界基層覺得質疑的是，為什麼足協買的機票都這麼貴、特別貴，而且我們政府還買單！一樣是去泰國的機票招標，我們看到橄欖球協會，他們自己就知道要訂定票價上限，可是一樣是單項協會的足協，體育署就讓足協跟旅行社直接用市價行情的3倍去採購，也難怪大家會覺得這件事情真的是怪怪的，而且這邊談的是經濟艙，部長，我剛剛提的3萬塊，足協花掉的3萬塊買的是商務艙，可是在剛剛那個招標案裡面買的卻是經濟艙。","再來看足球轉播，部長認為一場足球轉播要多少錢，我跟部長快速報告，時間有限。在2022年以前，不管是5人制或11人制，足協的轉播補助金額大概都是跟市場行情相符的，可是在2023年以後，一場30萬的轉播變成了130萬，怎麼想都想不到為什麼是這個數字，但我們的體育署只能照單全收。我認為相關體育預算的執行，我們真的要回過頭來好好檢討，到底什麼樣的執行，我們會認定它是失控的、它是不當的？過去111年體育署的6年足球計畫，以參賽補助的方法，吸引非足球隊伍報名換隊費，造成決算超支1億的問題，監察院已經提出糾正了。但是到了今年，現在才11月中，體育署在國際體育交流的部分，預算是3億9,000，但是已經執行6億4,000，超支了2億5,000萬，所以今年下半年，很多原本要出國的團隊跑來跟我們說，他們被體育署告知，因為預算的問題，所以沒有辦法同意出國，或是本來已經通過的計畫被喊停。是不是如同民間所說的，運發基金是體育署官員的小金庫？我認為這一定不是部長可以接受的。對照去年體育署宣布的國際賽事補助單項協會，如果有盈餘不用繳回，我認為問題更大，作為立法委員，我必須拜託部長，並嚴肅地提醒教育部，體育署不行，也不應該成為單項協會的提款機，而且相關的事情我覺得越來越多，但我們對待選手卻越來越小氣，有太多選手的狀況需要被解決，但是單項協會把我們政府部門當成提款機的情況卻越來越嚴重，部長我可不可以讓您簡單回應一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，我非常認同委員剛才所說的，我們應該在整個招標程序上包含價格等等，我們公務人員應該有一個先期的瞭解，然後訂出一個合理的公開招標價格或者一些相關的規範，包含補助的部分，因為我也知道，COVID-19以後許多的大型國際賽會，確實是比較多的，但是這跟經費……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我跟你說，因為主席已經站起來了，這跟COVID-19沒有關係，我剛剛已經給你看了，那個3萬塊已經可以買到華航商務艙……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，瞭解，這部分我完全認同……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我這邊有積極的條列出來相關的資料，拜託教育部帶回去。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們內部來檢討，在內稽內控這部分，我們應該要更精進。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後，主席，再1分鐘，要談跟性別有關的事情。"],["主席：沒有辦法再1分鐘，因為已經超過了。"],["陳委員培瑜：抱歉、抱歉。全民運5人制足球項目，我們收到一個陳情……"],["主席：培瑜委員，因為你已經超過滿多的，下次再問好嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：我再把相關資料提供出來，然後下次再問。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員，會後給我們，我們會來處理。"],["主席：部長請回，署長請回，謝謝陳培瑜委員。下一位請林倩綺委員質詢，在陳秀寳委員質詢完之後，我們休息15分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-8","speakers":["范雲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","萬美玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","吳沛憶","黃健豪","吳思瑤","林德福","王育敏","陳昭姿","涂權吉","楊瓊瓔","吳春城","羅智強","林月琴","羅廷瑋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","陳俊宇","翁曉玲","柯志恩","邱志偉","何欣純"],"page_start":339,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關教育部及所屬單位預算案；二、審查114年度教育部主管\n47 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洪委員長局長我想要先來問一下這兩天在媒體上面大家都看到我們這個前海軍的艦長呂律師跑到珠海的航展上面"},{"start":26.234,"end":43.941,"text":"這一番言論目前讓我們看到在中國的社群媒體上面大家在瘋傳他的那一席話的話我就不想多說了你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去這邊講這話你覺得妥當嗎?"},{"start":48.428,"end":74.218,"text":"對,確實比較不妥當。那也有可能淪為中共在對台認知作戰操作的一個主要的一個訴求。居然我們看到這件事情其實有它很不尋常的地方。第一個,其實它當然是一個海軍艦長,但其實它並不是這個將級以上的軍階。但是中國大批的媒體從各地跑去採訪他。"},{"start":76.196,"end":94.83,"text":"那財長他以後呢在把他的影片呢在現在在放放在這個中國網路上面其實坦白說我們很我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑這是不是就是一個由中共在後面導的一場戲那李律師只是這上面被交付任務的演員"},{"start":97.273,"end":119.762,"text":"可是現在我們遇到的問題比較大是說就像前幾天大家在談到吳斯懷的條款可是確實我們現在在這兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九之三條其實我想這個局長應該很清楚我們的這個條文是寫說這個有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員"},{"start":121.331,"end":143.265,"text":"那因為呂理詩他不是少將以上的人員所以他看起來就逃過了這個九字三條我們這個法規的規範所以從這幾個訊息裡面你甚大家甚至會懷疑是不是中共就是特地去找一個不是將級以上的這樣子的退役的人員來說這樣子的話"},{"start":146.774,"end":173.029,"text":"這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞?我們尊重委員的一個判斷對於一些退役的將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制這不是尊重的問題我現在的意思是說接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的"},{"start":174.505,"end":189.315,"text":"推移的軍人來講類似的話或來做類似的表達他看準我就看準你的這個兩人關係條例93的條文我要閃過你這個條文所以我專門找非降級以上的啊"},{"start":190.165,"end":206.6,"text":"局長,你覺得有沒有可能?可能性不能排除啦那這也凸顯到我們在法律的規範部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為局長我覺得國安局應該針對這些新的中共的手段跟發展其實我覺得我們應該要抱持著隨時"},{"start":208.181,"end":226.384,"text":"對於條文要修訂尤其是加嚴的準備那以因應像呂宇詩這樣非常非常不妥當而且他其實就等於自甘變成是中共中國的大外宣他所謂的國力他國力其實在講的是這個軍事上面那軍事是對著誰對著台灣啊"},{"start":228.994,"end":232.635,"text":"第2部長 局長上個月底我們也看到福建省發布第三波的會台利民的政策尤其是針對"},{"start":252.022,"end":270.043,"text":"．﹏"},{"start":270.183,"end":286.628,"text":"邱部長強調說他對於臺灣的這個醫療環境的方向有信心他表達有信心局長你覺得對於留住臺灣醫護人員你有沒有信心"},{"start":287.348,"end":315.042,"text":"我們尊重那個衛福部長的一個評估跟判斷那但就這問題來講也跟委員說明一下我們有注意到那福建現在已經變成是中共要推動兩岸促容的一個樣板的一個省份所以他提出非常多所謂的會台的計畫提供各種的工作機會也提供像委員剛所提到的有一些津貼的補助不過跟委員說明的是因為中國大陸他現在的狀況地方政府為了配合中央政策常常會提出很多這一類的計畫"},{"start":315.922,"end":342.371,"text":"但他到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題因為地方政府他希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助津貼的補助所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫但是要跟委員說明的是目前中共的大陸的經濟情勢就業狀況本身並不好那他對於我們呃國人相關的一個吸引力也不斷的在降低當中所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對台在進行統戰的一個動作"},{"start":343.531,"end":362.112,"text":"這部分特別跟委員說明一下局長我第一個先要肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們這個在國家整體的安全上面的一個隱患因為過去其實我們對護理人才流失的問題他常常都被定位成是一個勞動的問題或者是一個醫療照顧上面的問題"},{"start":363.493,"end":384.84,"text":"但我們確實現在很擔心說現在中國可能是不是在利用台灣部分領域的這些弱點變成是在打擊台灣的社會韌性或者是在這個對於你社會韌性在做更進一步的掏空的攻擊那這如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的這個侵犯的話"},{"start":385.865,"end":405.311,"text":"那這就是安全的問題了所以我不知道局長你有沒有把你剛剛這些相關的資訊其實讓衛福部也知道這真的已經是可能已經是安全上面的問題尤其是我認為國安局可能要多花一點力氣就是說到底中國做這些事情他的動機"},{"start":407.148,"end":434.145,"text":"他的動機為何,這些相關的情資我覺得也希望能夠更進一步的收集也包括要去掌握那我們對於議題,當然護理人才流失類似的問題或者我們專業人才會不會被流失或者被中國吸引這當然一直以來都是一個很大的議題也不全然只是國安局的問題所以我這邊其實接下來有幾個部分的要求也希望這個局長可以參考第一個"},{"start":435.646,"end":446.219,"text":"我們必須評估中國會台措施是否有危害台灣醫療安全包括社會任性的意圖這部分要請國安局更審慎的、積極的來評估"},{"start":447.957,"end":474.522,"text":"第2個是要針對這部分應該要進行系統性的情搜也包括也很多人在講說中國機構壞掉措施將台灣內政化影響各國對於台灣的認知要有相關的因應以上這幾點當然有些部分主管機關是在衛福部我們都清楚可是就安全方面的評估甚至是因應的建議我覺得這部分也希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來"},{"start":475.222,"end":502.178,"text":"所以不管是我們在前面講到律理師也好或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員的這樣子的動作也好其實都是對我們這些專業人才其實某部分用一種吸引或統戰的方式這個局長也很清楚我是覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應而不是只是在自己原本的那個視角的範疇裡面那可能是不夠的好不好對"},{"start":502.918,"end":502.938,"text":"韓國瑜議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時14分）好，想請國安局的蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：洪委員早。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我想要先來問一下，這兩天在媒體上大家都看到前海軍艦長呂禮詩跑到珠海航展，這一番言論目前讓……我們看到中國的社群媒體上面，大家在瘋傳他的那一席話，那話我就不想多說了，你對於我們的前海軍艦長跑去那邊講這種話，局長覺得妥當嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，確實比較不妥當啦！也有可能淪為中共在對臺認知作戰操作一個主要的訴求。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們看到這一件事情其實有很不尋常的地方，第一個，他是一個海軍艦長，但其實他並不是將級以上的軍階，但是中國大批媒體從各地跑去採訪他，採訪他以後，再把他的影片放在中國網路上面，坦白說，我覺得可以很直覺的懷疑，這是不是就是由中共在後面導的一場戲？呂禮詩只是這上面被交付任務的演員？可是現在我們遇到比較大的問題是，就像前幾天大家談到吳斯懷條款，現在在兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三，我想局長應該很清楚，我們這個條文是寫有國家安全相關機關的政務副首長或少將以上的人員，因為呂禮詩不是少將以上的人員，所以他看起來就逃過了第九條之三這個法規的規範，所以從這幾個訊息裡面，大家甚至會懷疑是不是中共特地去找一個不是將級以上的退役人員來說這樣子的話？那這是不是我們相關規範的漏洞，局長？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們尊重委員的判斷，對於一些退役將領或退軍在進行兩岸交流方面，當然應該要有一些嚴謹的管制……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，現在不是尊重的問題，我現在的意思是說，接下來有沒有可能中共專門來挑這些非將級以上的退役軍人來講類似的話，或來做類似的表達？他就看準兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三的條文，他要閃過你這個條文，所以專門找非將級以上的，局長覺得有沒有可能？"],["蔡局長明彥：可能性不能排除，這也突顯到我們在法律規範的部分可能還有一些模糊的地帶，才會讓中共有這樣的一個操作的作為。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，國安局針對中共這些新的手段跟發展，我覺得我們應該要抱持著對於條文隨時要修訂，尤其是加嚴的準備，以因應像呂禮詩這樣非常非常不妥當的行為，而且他其實就等於自甘變成是中國的大外宣，所謂的國力，國力其實在講的是軍事上面，那軍事是對著誰？對著臺灣！是對著臺灣！我覺得這是非常非常不妥當，而且我們絕對要要求在不管是軍方也好，或者安全單位也好，我覺得在紀律上面絕對要有非常嚴格的規範，這是第一個想跟局長討論的。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["洪委員申翰：第二個，局長，上個月底我們也看到福建省發布了第三波惠臺利民的政策，尤其是針對包括漳州五年內將為臺灣的護理人員提供數百個工作的機會，尤其讓你一開始就可以領取4.5萬的獎勵補助，這個針對護理人員的措施其實已經引起民間很多的討論，衛福部長邱部長強調，他表達對於臺灣醫療環境的方向有信心，局長覺得對於留住臺灣的醫護人員，你有沒有信心？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重衛福部長的評估跟判斷，但就這問題來講，也跟委員說明一下，我們有注意到，福建現在已經變成中共要推動兩岸促融的一個樣板省份，所以它提出非常多所謂的惠臺計畫，提供各種工作機會，也像委員剛剛所提到有提供一些津貼的補助。不過跟委員說明，關於中國大陸現在的狀況，地方政府為了配合中央政策，常常會提出很多這一類的計畫。"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["蔡局長明彥：但它到底能不能落實執行是另外一個問題，因為地方政府希望能夠拿到中共中央更多的經費補助、津貼的補助，所以他們提出很多很多這些的計畫，但是要跟委員說明，目前中共大陸的經濟情勢、就業狀況本身並不好，他對於我們國人相關的吸引力也不斷的在降低當中，所以他本身提出這些計畫就是一個對臺進行統戰的動作，這部分特別跟委員說明。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我第一個要先肯定你有把這件事情意識成也許是我們在國家整體安全上面的一個隱患，因為過去我們對護理人才流失的問題常常都比較定位成是一個勞動的問題，或者是一個醫療照護上面的問題，但我們現在很擔心中國是不是在利用臺灣部分領域的這些弱點，變成是在打擊臺灣的社會韌性，或者是在對社會韌性再做更進一步的掏空、攻擊，如果是對於我們的社會韌性進行更積極性的攻擊或積極性的侵犯，那這就是安全的問題了，所以我不知道局長有沒有把你剛才這些相關的資訊讓衛福部也知道，這真的可能已經是安全上面的問題，尤其我認為國安局可能要花多花一點力氣，到底中國做這些事情的動機為何？這些相關的情資我也希望能夠更進一步的蒐集，也包括要去掌握，我們對於護理人才流失類似的問題，或者我們專業人才會不會流失或被中國吸引，這一直以來當然都是一個很大的議題，也不全然只是國安局的問題，所以我這邊接下來有幾個部分的要求，也希望局長可以參考。","第一個，我們必須評估中國惠臺措施是否有危害臺灣醫療安全，包括社會韌性的意圖，這部分要請國安局更審慎、積極的來評估；第二個，針對這個部分應該要進行系統性的情蒐，也有很多人在講中國惠臺措施將臺灣內政化，影響各國對於臺灣的認知，要有相關的因應。以上這幾點，當然有些部分的主管機關是在衛福部，我們都清楚，可是就安全方面的評估，甚至是因應的建議，這部分希望國安局能夠具體的把類似像這樣的事情給做出來。","不管是我們在前面講到呂禮詩也好，或者是接下來中國對我們護理人員這樣子的動作也好，其實某部分都是對我們這些專業人才用一種吸引或統戰的方式，這個局長也很清楚，我覺得局長可能要更大程度的來提醒我們相關的部會在這方面要從安全的角度因應，而不是只是在自己原本的視角範疇裡面，那可能是不夠的，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員提醒，這部分我們再針對相關的問題，從國安的角度來評估中共的一些惠臺政策有沒有去影響到我們的國安或社會的韌性，特別是過程當中，關於中共認知操作的手法，我們會特別再用系統性的分析來整理，謝謝委員提醒。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員。局長，如果你們認為有法律模糊的地帶，也建議你們可以提出修法建議。","接下來進行詢答的委員，徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-13","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","黃仁","馬文君","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","陳永康","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄【含秘密會議】","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00002"}}},{"id":"156885","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156885","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b748867f37161ac9b6b270dce3daca9a75ae72a34e051796ef03749d7e409c8a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:12:00 - 10:22:32","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐富癸等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）至（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（五）至（七）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（一）、（五）、（六）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；第（三）及（四）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部分。\n【第三、四案僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:12:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:22:32+08:00","duration":632,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-2-36-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.08471875,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.89784375,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.09971875,"end":30.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.625343750000003,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.58971875,"end":48.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.45784375,"end":52.140968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.993468750000005,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.140968750000006,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.84971875,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.91721875,"end":53.524718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.60909375,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.963468750000004,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.03096875,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.97596875,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":55.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.78596875,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.87034375,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.90409375,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.22471875,"end":56.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.376593750000005,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.83221875,"end":57.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.44596875,"end":81.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.73971875000001,"end":101.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.83784375,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.24159375,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.02534375,"end":123.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.72471875000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.12909375,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.33471875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.41409375,"end":141.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.03409375,"end":142.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.81034375000002,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.96221875,"end":155.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.97909375,"end":144.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.08659375000002,"end":166.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.08534375000002,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.98659375,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.69346875000002,"end":188.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.68909375,"end":191.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":193.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.57471875000002,"end":193.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.33409375000002,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.71784375000001,"end":194.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.78534375,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.38846875000002,"end":197.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.39596875,"end":203.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.67846875,"end":217.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.17409375000003,"end":220.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.35096875000002,"end":224.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.00846875000002,"end":225.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.05909375000002,"end":243.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.65534375000001,"end":246.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.35534375,"end":257.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.49284375,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.17909375,"end":279.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.04221875,"end":286.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.80471875,"end":288.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.15034375,"end":289.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.02346875,"end":296.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.90034375000005,"end":332.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.95784375,"end":333.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.71721875000003,"end":337.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.2903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您說在業務上是由數位發展部主導,我們看下一頁。但是在經過這麼一個月我去看了一下,我發現人種很積極。"},{"start":66.491,"end":79.664,"text":"美國政府也很積極,他在公共行政部門AI的應用狀況清單。他們有一個報告提到,他們不管是在環境社會福利,醫療保健交通,還有識別以及對退伍軍人的服務和樂島消營等等對於極端氣候。他們一共盤點了包括23個非軍事的機構,發布了200多個AI的使用方案。"},{"start":88.852,"end":109.996,"text":"還有700多個AI的應用專正在開發裝中。你覺得人種相較於美國政府,你們有沒有很積極的也在希望協助各部門往AI,所謂的AI就是人工智慧,人工智慧大家所普遍的認知就可以節約或提高人力的運用效能,對不對?剛好人種就是負責人力的運用嘛,所以這也是你們投入AI的原因之一,是不是啊?"},{"start":110.876,"end":134.669,"text":"我們最重要的是在訓練每一個公務人員都有AI的DNA也協助他們在業務上能夠精進讓他們在人事效率上應用更高是不是這樣當然好那所以你當我這樣舉例你覺得是不是需要去盤點一下參考一下美國政府在AI應用狀況的清單並研議相對應的業務導入AI的可行性你覺得值不值得參考"},{"start":135.633,"end":155.104,"text":"我覺得委員整理這個資料非常棒我相信數位發展部的數位政府師應該是有證好你還是認為說雖然人事總署很積極但是政府的權責機關在行政院還是人還是出發不好但是我們看一下服務型的智慧政府2.0推動計畫這是不是人總在推的"},{"start":157.14,"end":157.16,"text":"議員吳沛憶"},{"start":176.058,"end":186.758,"text":"所以你們是不是也是可以剛剛我提供給你參考的美國政府的AI應用狀況清單的可行性,相對應的服務可以納入你們的服務型政府智慧政府2.0的推動計畫?"},{"start":189.727,"end":215.966,"text":"你們還是講以人事為主嗎?我委員補充,他就像一大堆肉粽,肉粽頭是在數位發展部,那我們這個服務型智慧政府那是人事的,租給其他各個部位,我們的重點會在人事。但是人事部門,你們業務上只負責人事部門,但是所有政府部門人員的人事制度是你們主導嗎?包括他們的薪資結構,你們要來幫他們講話嗎?"},{"start":218.288,"end":245.617,"text":"是。好。那我們來看一下下一頁。所以我們來看一下我們政府有一個跟美國政府一樣高階的技術專才他們是用短期專案來協助政府業務我們看到華爾街日報他一個報導美國的國防部要進行一個創新計畫去招募矽谷的高階技術專才以兼職的方式以中高階軍官的身份投入美軍的後備役協助網路安全跟數據分析很有趣美國的國防部他們的用人制度很靈活"},{"start":246.517,"end":266.716,"text":"他們有可以從民間挖專材與護背役的方式他們有國民兵有這些的相關的制度那您覺得如果是用這個方式包括科技業以外啦物流啦航空啦你覺得我們台灣政府可不可以參考美軍去招募高階技術專材一短期專案來協助政府導入AI及協助網路安全和數據分析呢?"},{"start":267.837,"end":288.098,"text":"我覺得有機會因為在訴發部底下有一個治安院那治安院是一個行政法人行政法人他可以比較靈活的去害這些人進來所以在你任總的立場來講其實你認為給訴發部當時在人事制度上就留有這樣的空間讓他去運用對嗎那你覺得他目前有充分的運用嗎"},{"start":291.038,"end":308.708,"text":"他有在應用一些資安相關領域的一個study嗎?好 那我們來看一下但是我們要看人總啊自己本身你們自己發的齁我在7月的時候呢我問了一個說相同的能力之下心事待遇跟業界相仿才能保有優秀的公務員我還記得我那時候說的"},{"start":309.568,"end":337.465,"text":"人總過去的思考都是說公務人員來互相比較我要提高這個人員的應用的這個機會留用他我把他跟其他公務員的薪資待遇相對拉高我有那時候跟您提過這是不夠的因為這些優優人才不是在公務機關互相比較他是跟民間部門跟他同樣技術能力的人的薪酬來互相比較你同不同意他們是這樣想非常同意好所以呢你看你們人總在提到說公務機關的工程人員"},{"start":338.405,"end":352.973,"text":"只缺林卜不易所以你們就在7月31號得到行政院答覆你們工程裡面的待遇提升方增加了專業加給3000塊然後在工程獎金的留任獎金上從5500提高到16萬這是人總去爭取的嘛是不是"},{"start":354.735,"end":355.255,"text":"吳沛憶等21人擬具"},{"start":374.008,"end":377.631,"text":"十四點五,那就對了。但是我們來看一下實況上媒體的報導。不只你們要去跟民間部門搶財,七月也要跟公務門搶財,搶什麼人?搶土木專財,年薪兩百萬配車包租屋,他加倍的行情。他們認為什麼?如果說政府的標案多,他們業界缺人,他直接跟你行政機關挖啊,他所謂有行政機關更好啊。你覺得目前工程人員的待遇提升方案能夠追得上業界嗎?"},{"start":402.032,"end":422.007,"text":"你們剛剛提出的這個方案能留得住專才嗎?有沒有辦法?我跟委員坦白的報告啦。這個扭開之後會讓這一些流進來的土木工程的人員會更多啦。我看是這樣啦,是扭不進來啦。你不可能去把民間的都收到嗎?堅守你們讓人家民間扭他,差不多啦。你要把民間扭啦,那麼困難啦。我們來看一下。再講一個。勞動檢查人員的低薪跟環境惡劣,你看。"},{"start":429.812,"end":452.284,"text":"這裡媒體也報導囉官方訓練出師的職安專家都成為民間高薪挖角所以勞動部爭取加薪也補不滿啦近5年有300個勞檢員離開因為呢約聘、低薪、工作環境惡劣業界開高薪挖角根據你們自己提出的在今年的3月得到行政院得到的風險工程會你們呢把它提高到了5000跟3000你們認為這是編定的勞動檢查人員執行風險工作費的支給表當中能留得住嗎?"},{"start":461.575,"end":482.309,"text":"我覺得政府機關有時候在調,不可能一下子衝下去縮短嘛。你就縮短,把那個距離落差。但是今天遇到這種狀況,給你再參考一下美軍的做法。這也是我跟國防部了解的。美軍的新金制度,他們美國是怎麼說?他們美國的軍官的償費薪資呢,他用給大學畢業生全部全國去比,PR83啦。"},{"start":486.152,"end":487.633,"text":"議員吳沛憶等21人擬具 «行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案》案"},{"start":504.574,"end":528.895,"text":"所以我要告訴你有一個觀念我們過去呢假如說今天國防部他要去挖一個人一個技術的軍官在民間的不管是資訊的飛行的我們想說啊這個邊界是少校我用少校的最高性來挖你你覺得挖得動嗎如果他們去航空業去挖我跟你講美軍不是這樣挖美軍不是他說我這個技術人員我要挖你"},{"start":529.912,"end":529.952,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":555.882,"end":560.049,"text":"如果你的專長能力在美軍是要怎麼樣?中將還是上將?才能挖得動你?"},{"start":563.14,"end":591.46,"text":"你了解我的意思嗎?請你簡短回答因為時間的關係。我年紀老啊,應該挖不動了啦。好,你了解我的意思沒有?思維的方向不是以我們公務機關來做比較,要以人家在民間的薪酬的水準來對應來挖稅,最後只有三個要求啦。第一,請嚴育談點美國政府AI應用狀況,請他們將具可行性的相對應的業務呢,納入你的服務型智慧政府2.0的推動計畫,一個月內提供一個書面報告給本席,可以嗎?"},{"start":595.496,"end":616.309,"text":"此外,仿照美軍招募高階技術專才與短期專案協助政委導入AI及協助網路安全數據分析的可行性,也提出一個參考方案。此外,仿照美軍招募高階技術專才與短期專案協助政委導入AI及協助網路安全數據分析的可行性,也提出一個參考方案。此外,仿照美軍招募高階技術專才與短期專案協助政委導入AI及協助網路安全數據分析的可行性,也提出一個參考方案。此外,仿照美軍招募高階技術專才與短期專案協助政委導入AI及協助網路安全數據分"},{"start":621.055,"end":621.195,"text":"三）委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時12分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請蘇人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人事長早。這次我要講的是高階專才短期專案協助政府，美軍的薪資制度可以解決我們長期的缺額，讓您參考一下。先來回顧一下，我在上個月的時候曾請教您跟數發部的次長，誰是政府導入AI的主責機關，你認為呢？是誰？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：責無旁貸就是數位發展部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，是數位發展部，但他今天不在。那麼成效由誰來管考？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然也是數位發展部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也是數位發展部？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們是負責訓練，這個是我們的責任，也不容推掉。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！您說在業務上是由數發部主導，但是經過了這麼一個月，我去看了一下，我發現人總很積極，美國政府也很積極，他的公共行政部門AI應用狀況清單，他們有一個報告提到，不管是在環境、社會福利、醫療保健、交通、識別專利申請，以及對退伍軍人提供服務和研究熱島效應以防治極端氣候等等，他們一共盤點了23個非軍事機構，發布了二百多個AI使用方案，還有七百多個AI應用專案正在開發當中。你覺得人總相較於美國政府，你們有沒有很積極的也在希望協助各部門往AI，所謂的AI就是人工智慧，人工智慧大家所普遍的認知就是可以節約或提高人力的運用效能，對不對？剛好人總就是負責人力的運用，所以這也是你們投入AI的原因之一，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們最重要的是在訓練每一個公務人員都有AI的DNA。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也協助他們在業務上能夠精進，讓他們在人事效率上應用更高，是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你看到我這樣的舉例，你覺得是不是需要去盤點一下，參考美國政府AI應用狀況清單，並研議相對應的業務導入AI的可行性？你覺得值不值得參考？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員整理的這個資料非常棒，我相信數位發展部的數位政府司應該是有做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，雖然人事總處很積極，但是你還是認為政府的權責機關在行政院還是數發部。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，服務型智慧政府2.0推動計畫是不是人總在推的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這一個計畫是人總的，我們的客戶群主要是針對全國八千多位人事人員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：人事人員？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，人事人員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們是認為政府內的人事部門，對此，你們編了三億七千多萬，最後一年是編了六千多萬，對不對？所以你們是不是也可以盤點剛剛我提供給你參考的美國政府AI應用狀況清單，並將可行性對應的相關業務納入你們的服務型智慧政府2.0推動計畫？你們還是以人事為主嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，那個就像是一串肉粽，肉粽頭是在數位發展部，我們這個服務型智慧政府是人事的，還有給其他各個部會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你是負責人事部門就對了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，我們的重點會在人事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在業務上只負責人事部門，但是所有政府部門人員的人事制度是你們主導嘛，包括他們的薪資結構，你們要來幫他們講話嘛。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，我們政府有一個跟美國政府一樣，高階的技術專才是用短期專案來協助政府業務，我們看到華爾街日報的一個報導，美國國防部要進行一個創新計畫，去招募矽谷的高階技術專才，以兼職中高階軍官的身分投入美軍的後備役，協助網路安全跟數據分析。很有趣喔，美國國防部的用人制度很靈活，他們可以從民間挖專才以後備役的方式，他們有國民兵，有這些的相關制度，那您覺得，如果用這個方式，包括科技業以外的物流、航空，你覺得我們臺灣政府可不可以參考美軍招募高階技術專才的方式，以短期專案協助政府導入AI及協助網路安全和數據分析呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得有機會，因為在數發部底下有一個資安院，資安院是一個行政法人，行政法人可以比較靈活地去聘用這些人進來服務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以在人總的立場來講，你認為當時就給數發部在人事制度上留有這樣的空間去運用，對嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你覺得它目前有充分的運用嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它有在應用一些資安相關領域的研發……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，我們來看人總自己本身所發的，我在7月的時候問了一個問題，在相同的能力之下，薪資待遇跟業界相仿，才能保有優秀的公務員。我還記得我那時候說的，人總過去的思考都是說公務人員互相比較，我要提高人員的應用機會、留用他，我就把他跟其他公務員的薪資待遇相對拉高，我那時候有跟您提過這是不夠的，因為這些優秀人才不是在公務機關互相比較，他是跟民間部門、跟他同樣技術能力的人的薪酬來互相比較，你同不同意他們是這樣想？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我非常同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你看，你們人總提到，公務機關的工程人員職缺遴補不易，所以你們在7月31號得到行政院的答復，你們工程人員的待遇提升方案增加了專業加給3,000塊，然後在工程人員留任獎金上，從5萬5,000元提高到16萬，這是人總去爭取的嘛，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你覺得這樣有沒有達到效果？夠不夠？幅度夠不夠？增加3,000塊。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，一個月多三千多，一年就多四萬多，再加那個16萬……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一年沒有啦，一年只有多36,000啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還有獎金那一類的啦，就乘以14.5啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，乘以14.5那就對了啦。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：差不多就有四萬多了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們來看一下實況上媒體的報導，不只你們要去跟民間部門搶才，企業也會跟公部門搶才，搶什麼人？搶土木專才，年薪200萬、配車、包租屋，都是加倍的行情，他們認為如果政府的標案多，他們業界缺人，就直接向你行政機關挖啊，如果有行政經驗的更好啊，你覺得目前工程人員的待遇提升方案能夠追得上業界嗎？你們剛剛提出的這個方案能留得住專才嗎？有沒有辦法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員坦白的報告啦，這個拉上來之後，會讓這些流進來的土木工程人員更多啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我看是這樣啦，是拉不進來啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你也不可能去跟民間搶人啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：減少你們的人讓民間拉去還差不多啦，你想要從民間拉人過來比較困難啦！","我們再講一個，勞動檢查人員低薪跟工作環境惡劣，這個媒體也有報導囉，官方訓練出師的職安專家都成為民間高薪挖角對象，所以勞動部爭取加薪也補不滿啦！近5年有300位勞檢員離開，因為約聘低薪、工作環境惡劣，加上業界開高薪挖角。根據你們自己提出的，在今年3月得到行政院的風險工程費，你們把它提高5,000元跟3,000元，你們認為訂定「勞動檢查人員執行風險工作費支給表」的風險工作費就能留得住嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得政府機關有時候在調是不可能一下子衝得很高嘛，就是縮短，把那個距離、落差縮短……"],["鍾委員佳濱：瞭解，但是今天遇到這種狀況，給你再參考一下美軍的作法，這也是我跟國防部了解的，美軍的薪津制度，美國是怎麼做的？美國軍官的常備薪津，他用給大學畢業生全部、全國去比，是PR83，也就是說，他們國防部要找大學畢業來任軍官的，是全國大學畢業生就職行情的PR83，也就是最前面的17%，很高喔！如果是士官兵，跟相同學歷能力的相比則是90%。所以我要告訴你一個觀念，假如今天國防部要去挖一個人，一個在民間的技術軍官，不管是資訊的或飛行的，我們想說這個編階是少校，我就用少校的最高薪來挖他，你覺得挖得動嗎？如果他們去航空業挖，我跟你講，美軍不是這樣挖的，他說我要挖你這個技術人員，你在民間的行情是多少，回推過來，在我們內部的薪水是上校的薪水，我挖你過來你就是上校。你知道我的意思嗎？技術軍官是不帶兵的，他不是指揮軍官，所以他要掛少校還是上校，是先決定他的技術在民間的薪資行情，然後對照我軍方的薪資行情，如果他這個薪水要上校的薪水，他就是上校。所以人事長，你的專長能力在美軍是要中將還是上將才能挖得動你？你了解我的意思嗎？請簡短回答，因為時間的關係。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我年紀大了，應該挖不動了啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你了解我的意思嗎？思維的方向不是以公務機關來做比較，而是要以人家在民間的薪酬水準對應來挖。","所以最後我只有三個要求，第一，請研議「盤點美國政府AI應用狀況清單並將具可行性之對應相關業務納入服務型智慧政府2.0推動計畫」之方案，並於一個月內提供書面報告給本席，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。另外，請評估「仿照美軍招募高階技術專才以短期專案協助政府導入AI及協助網路安全和數據分析」之可行性，也提出一個參考的方案，可以嗎？我都幫你把資料找好了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我會請數位發展部來協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你堅持這個是數位發展部的。最後，請評估「長期缺額之單位參考美軍薪津制度能有效填補缺額並增加續任意願」之可行性，這個就是你們需要的，這個可以做吧？參考一下這個方法。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們寫一個評估報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：用薪水來挖人，而不是用你現有的職缺來挖人，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請羅智強委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-13","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","林思銘","吳思瑤","羅智強","莊瑞雄","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林倩綺","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐富癸等\n17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員吳沛憶等21人擬具「行政院組織法\n第三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 四) 委員林宜瑾等19 人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」\n案、(五)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n陳冠廷等17人擬具「行政院組織法第三條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員范雲等16人擬具「行政院\n組織法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)行政院、考試院函請審議「中央行政機關組\n織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中央行政機關\n組織基準法第二十九條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「中央行政\n機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「中央\n行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等\n16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員陳冠\n廷等16人擬具「中央行政機關組織基準法第二十九條條文修正草案」案；三、審查114年度中央\n政府總預算案關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管收支部分；四、審查 114年度中央政府總預算\n案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院人事行政總處主管「中央公教人員急難救助基金」收支部\n分【第三、四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"11310001_00001"}}},{"id":"156883","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156883","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b4713f90e4ffee0e72a0d4a4306ab205f5ae72a34e051796e468a1eea278b59595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:10:57 - 10:18:41","影片長度":"00:07:44","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n          (第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-11-14","start_time":"2024-11-14T10:10:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-11-14T10:18:41+08:00","duration":464,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-2-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.26659375,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.599093750000002,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.919093750000002,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.47534375,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.981593750000002,"end":19.082843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.559093750000002,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.53659375,"end":34.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.52346875,"end":43.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.75409375,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.03659375,"end":57.220343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.338468750000004,"end":61.30409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.50659375,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.88971875,"end":66.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.90659375,"end":68.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.40409375,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.37409375,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.65221875,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.32971875000001,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.19409375000001,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.08721875,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.72846875,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.03221875000001,"end":101.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.07409375,"end":105.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.51659375000001,"end":109.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.51159375,"end":112.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.03034375,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.71284375,"end":125.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.56409375000001,"end":130.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.00221875,"end":131.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.58846875,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.42346875,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":143.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.78971875000002,"end":140.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.51909375,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.53596875,"end":151.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.10846875000001,"end":153.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.06596875,"end":172.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.90971875,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.18971875,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.20659375000002,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.31846875000002,"end":187.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.84971875000002,"end":189.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.94221875000002,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.04346875000002,"end":190.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.12784375,"end":199.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.17784375000002,"end":195.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.19409375,"end":204.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.63596875000002,"end":205.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.70346875,"end":206.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.66534375,"end":206.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.80034375000002,"end":223.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.70909375000002,"end":223.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.75971875000002,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.96221875,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.02346875,"end":244.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.02221875,"end":252.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.12221875000003,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker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位的規定,他甚至考慮到很多國安的層次,所以他必須所有的都不應該超越這個層次,你超越這個層次恐怕都涉及到國家安全的問題了。是,而且從國家發展的角度來看,我們現在的經濟部或是相關單位所做的,不管什麼農業科學園區科學園區等等這些,它實際上都是要跟國際對接了。"},{"start":372.586,"end":399.904,"text":"副主委那這樣子看來會不會大家擔憂?這樣的會不會是金門、廈門間用這種所謂的特區的概念來執行兩岸融合發展示範區?有沒有這樣的擔憂?我們還是堅持只要不管離島、本島會不會擔憂?主委會不會擔憂?副主委會不會擔憂?我們當然有注意到對岸的一些計畫跟方向那所以我們希望說台灣要有自己的發展方向"},{"start":400.88,"end":420.121,"text":"所以不要讓這個特區有可能成為是我看包括連這個王滬寧都提了兩岸融合示範區如果這樣的一個特區出來的話有可能就會形成類似於他這樣的示範區的一個概念慢慢逐步去成形那有可能就影響到台灣他們往這個方向推動的計畫是很清楚的"},{"start":420.541,"end":424.302,"text":"條例第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":440.567,"end":443.569,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":621,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時11分）好，謝謝主席。我請連次長還有衛福部的郭專委，跟陸委會的梁副主委。"],["主席：請連次長、郭專委，還有陸委會的梁副主委，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先請教一下衛福部郭專委，這個離島自由貿易區，就是陳玉珍委員提案的部分，這個部分如果照他的條文通過會產生什麼影響？"],["郭專門委員威中：會跟現行的醫療法有一些扞格。"],["賴委員瑞隆：扞格的部分，他要成立一個醫療的專區，甚至外國人士會有一些放寬的比例，這個會不會對現行的制度產生不同的作法？"],["郭專門委員威中：跟委員報告，其實我們在110年的時候，醫院設立或擴充許可辦法裡面已經有把國際醫療病房這個區域放在條例裡面了，醫院可以依照它的需求跟所在地的衛生主管機關去做申請。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果照這樣的作法的話，會不會擔心有一國兩制的問題？一個臺灣有兩種制度。"],["郭專門委員威中：因為整體而言，我們要的是可以完全的管理整個醫療體制。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以應該是納入到同一個，你們其實並不贊成這樣的修法，對不對？"],["郭專門委員威中：我們是建議委員……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你們希望還是維持既有的這個制度嘛，好，謝謝專委。接下來我請一下連次長。次長，如果照這樣的修法通過的話，對經濟產業會有什麼影響？"],["連次長錦漳：如果是那個自由貿易示範區，因為它涉及到相關的法令，所以這個應該是還要再謹慎地來討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你們也是並不贊同？"],["連次長錦漳：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果照這樣通過的話，它對於整個產業上的一些……會不會也一樣產生同一個中華民國下面有兩種制度的問題？"],["連次長錦漳：因為這個剛剛其實有提到，應該是要架構在整個兩岸人民關係條例的一個……在臺灣每一個縣市都應該是要遵守這樣的一個基本法規，不應該有所差別。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你們其實並不贊成單獨成立一個專區這樣的概念來處理？"],["連次長錦漳：應該是要under在現在的相關規定下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其實在現有制度下問題也都可以解決，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對，可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是若去弄了一個專區，反倒有可能會製造更多紛擾。"],["連次長錦漳：因為它裡面有涉及排除到一些相關法令的問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們也看到了，中國這邊其實不斷地想要去做一些所謂的兩岸融合發展的示範區，次長會不會有這樣的擔憂？"],["連次長錦漳：這個還是真的要謹慎去考慮，因為我們要看這個自由貿易示範區要面對的是哪一些出口地，由於我們目前設立的這些自由貿易都是向國際去對接的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：它現在這樣的作法，包括中國這邊所提出的作法，其實看來是要讓兩岸之間有一些融合、示範的發展，而且看來金門、廈門是他們主要推動的一個區域，次長對這個部分會不會有所擔憂？"],["連次長錦漳：當然，這個會啊，兩岸的部分我們要謹慎來討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對於我們的產業，對我們整體上……"],["連次長錦漳：因為這個如果沒有做好的話，對我們國內的產業衝擊是很大的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是會有衝擊的，而且它透過了金門跟廈門的試點，如果做完了之後，有沒有可能將來擴及到全臺灣？"],["連次長錦漳：這應該會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對啊，現在修法既然可以在金門有個特區，未來為什麼不能全臺灣來做？這是大家高度關心的，重點是中共對臺灣是有一定的企圖跟敵意的，它對臺灣是不斷地有各種滲透方式進來，所以這一塊是一定要審慎小心。"],["連次長錦漳：因為大陸很多的產品都是用一些補貼或低價傾銷的方式，如果是透過某種方式進來，對國內的產業衝擊是相當大的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個是大家擔憂的。我再回到郭專委，好不好？同樣的問題，這陣子為了波波醫生，甚至很多醫療的一些問題，大家有擔憂。如果這個點被做了一個特區進來，還可以有外國的，甚至有一些醫療人士可以放寬的話，會不會擔心這也是讓很多的中國……甚至我們講的所謂的蒙古大夫，會不會跑到這邊來？"],["郭專門委員威中：這個部分其實臺灣很多人民在境外地區都有在上一些醫學院、醫學系，所以昨天部長已經明示了，我們是謹守……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們現在採取更謹慎的方式在處理、照顧國人的安全，如果你這邊又做了一個放寬的話，以後會不會……更何況中國大陸的很多，大家擔憂的就更多了，這恐怕會是一個更大的問題，所以我想衛福部應該會站穩你們的立場？"],["郭專門委員威中：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：會反對嘛？"],["郭專門委員威中：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，最後邀請一下梁副主委好嗎？副主委，陸委會的態度呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們陸委會態度就很簡單，不管是本島還是離島，只要在中華民國領域內和對岸的往來就要受到兩岸條例的規範，所以我們不會接受脫逸出兩岸條例規範的作法。我舉例，譬如說自由貿易港區，我們現在有6個自由貿易港區，但這6個自由貿易港區關於人員流動、關於貨物流動、關於資金流動、專業證照、勞動條件等等，都還是要受到兩岸人民關係條例的規範，所以不管離島建設條例未來會怎麼修正，但是它的人員、貨物、資金、證照、勞動條件等等，都還是不能夠脫逸出兩岸條例。"],["賴委員瑞隆：兩岸人民關係條例是一個比較上位的規定，它甚至考慮到很多國安的層次，所以所有都不應該超越這個層次，超越這個層次恐怕都會涉及到國家安全的問題了。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，而且從國家發展的角度來看，現在經濟部或是相關單位所做的農業科學園區等等這些，它實際上都是要跟國際對接。"],["賴委員瑞隆：副主委，這樣子看來，大家擔憂會不會是金門、廈門間用這種所謂特區的概念，來實行兩岸融合發展示範區？有沒有這樣的擔憂？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們還是堅持，不管離島、本島……"],["賴委員瑞隆：會不會擔憂？副主委會不會擔憂？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們當然有注意到對岸的一些計畫跟方向，所以我們希望臺灣要有自己的發展方向……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以不要讓這個特區有可能成為是……我看包括連王滬寧都提了兩岸融合示範區，如果這樣的一個特區出來的話，有可能就會形成類似於這樣的示範區的概念，慢慢逐步去成形，那有可能就會影響到臺灣嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：他們往這個方向推動的計畫是很清楚的，所以臺灣要走自己的路。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以王滬寧跟國臺辦，包括廈門、包括福建，這件事情是清楚的，那我們要有強的防衛機制嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，因為他們從來沒有避諱他們想要做什麼事情，我們要走自己的道路，我們自己的道路也很清楚。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以陸委會要再三地去提醒國人，這件事情恐怕不是簡單的用醫療、用什麼建設去包裝一個特區的概念，它事實上恐怕面臨的是中共對於臺灣兩岸融合的入侵。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個必須要不斷地說明跟澄清，好不好？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，一定會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝幾位，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員，接下來請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","黃健豪","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","蔡易餘","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文\n修正草案」案、(二)本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(三)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)本\n院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)\n本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；二、審查：\n(一)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員賴士葆\n等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員邱志偉等 22 人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},{"id":"156882","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156882","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b963804d17c24c05ea754e2511c44c3ef5ae72a34e051796e2b572682c7da76a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:03:48 - 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麻煩蔡局長"},{"start":9.396,"end":27.275,"text":"謝謝主席 王委員早局長其實我們在國家情報的收集有蠻大的一塊部分是來自於跟友盟之間的交換這個很重要交換不只是為了擴大獲取情報的面積還有一個很重要是去verify第三方意見來確認這情報是否真實"},{"start":31.277,"end":59.454,"text":"目前美國政局在經歷變動日本的政局也剛變動完成也就台灣對外最重要的關係現在在地緣政治上都有一些變化我們不能天真去相信以往怎麼樣未來就怎麼樣但我們也要做好一些接觸跟準備今天早上川普正式任命了Rubio這台灣的老朋友是擔任國務卿那我再加上兩個人"},{"start":60.915,"end":83.992,"text":"這讓他的國安團隊大概都成型了另外一位是這一個CIA的局長雷奇克里夫另外還有國安顧問Michael Woods當然昨天還公佈了國防部長你對這一些川普目前任命的國安團隊國安局有沒有對他們的"},{"start":85.097,"end":90.062,"text":"這部分剛剛在進來會議室之前媒體有在關切那我的態度是我們不針對個別的人士來評論這畢竟要尊重外國政府的一個政治的運作那但是就整體的人事任命有沒有哪些意涵我們可以提出一些觀察"},{"start":109.501,"end":134.498,"text":"對 那我們認為可能未來美國新政府上來之後應該施政上會有兩個主軸一個部分就美國優先那另外一個部分就是遏制中國那這兩個大概就是主要的施政的一個重點那國安局當然會這個判斷其實很重要因為美國在未來4年川普的路線會影響到我們的國家安全重要嗎當然影響到我們在地緣政治的外交的合作也很重要還會影響到我們的經濟對台灣來講經濟其實是國安的一部分"},{"start":138.58,"end":159.199,"text":"我看了這些名單像都有參議員、眾議員出身然後裡面大概第一個對川普的忠誠度大概是很前面的考量因素也就是他能夠貫徹川普的意志第二個是對中國的態度很強硬像這個CIA的這一位局長"},{"start":160.1,"end":178.792,"text":"他其實前兩三年是擔任美國的情報總監我相信國安局跟他有接觸那這一位雷克里夫他曾經把中國定義為美國是美國第二次世界大戰以來最大的威脅我相信局長是外交出身的這個應該有了解"},{"start":179.412,"end":208.039,"text":"另外白宮的國安顧問Michael Woods他在眾議院的時候他是對中政策的特殊委員會的成員那我們也跟他有所接觸他也是加速對台提供軍售物資的Tiger Team的領導人之一然後他也是對中國強硬派所以你剛才分析也對啦第一個他們是對中強硬派第二個其實他們還有一個共通的特色Rubio反左"},{"start":209.259,"end":228.576,"text":"對於美國的左傾他們其實是那個態度蠻一致的第三個是對非法移民的態度這大概是這一個團隊的定性那我接下來請教我們局長國安局以及國安局所轄的勤工單位跟目前川普建構起來的國安團隊過去有沒有接觸的經驗"},{"start":229.597,"end":230.917,"text":"你們跟雷克里夫有沒有合作過?他以前是情報總監?"},{"start":249.861,"end":250.942,"text":"請委員可以理解"},{"start":274.425,"end":298.41,"text":"這個我們在這些接觸當中那事實上也要注意到一些訊息因為目前在日本也有產生就是第一個移美第二個移川這個川普那第三個會質疑我在日本的媒體看到質疑日本本身跟美國的關係在台灣就變成移美移川移賴啦比方說這一個"},{"start":301.175,"end":315.761,"text":"金片這個事情我不知道國安局有沒有掌握他他完整的翻譯我去看了幾次尤其最近一次接受這個Joe Podcaster的訪問他其實內容是講說台灣掌握了搶走的全世界大多數的金片生意"},{"start":317.102,"end":332.837,"text":"臺灣因為臺灣做得很好因為他當時是對他的政治對手在攻擊因為美國有一群糟糕的官僚他的全文是這一個啦他是反對補貼主義的那對川普的單邊主義也事實上如果我們回頭去看QUAD"},{"start":334.178,"end":362.146,"text":"CWAD是在陸克文2007年安倍提出2008年澳洲的陸克文總理因為中國的影響退出後來到2017年重新啟動這個CWAD四邊對話是川普是是20應該是19還是20年把四邊對話要提升到區域安全共同願景那時候是川普派他的國務卿蓬佩奧才有亞洲北約是這樣一個脈落下來的未必都是純單邊"},{"start":363.706,"end":383.845,"text":"所以川普即將就任他的國安團隊也開始在交接當中我希望國安局跟你們所督導的勤工單位要跟美方可能在未來工作的步調上還有灰色地帶啦AI啦網路的衝突上要有一些接觸你們目前有沒有啟動這樣的計畫"},{"start":385.026,"end":401.983,"text":"對我們事實上跟國際有門跟理念相近國家在戰略溝通跟情報聯繫上都非常的緊密那正如委員所提到的很多聯繫的重點一來是在中共的軍事的活動跟動態它已經變成是一個不單是台海的議題也是整個區域安全的議題那這是一個重點"},{"start":402.603,"end":431.208,"text":"那另外是對於各種複合式的威脅還有灰色地帶的操作那很多的國際網友他們也在擔心這樣的議題因為在民主選舉過程當中假如有境外的勢力在操弄國內的民主選舉的話那這對民主價值跟體制是一個非常大的危害美國他們未來會投入資源在特別AI對國家安全的影響比如說有一個課題就是我們怎麼去辨識這是正確的我今天本來要播那個沈博洋的影片"},{"start":432.543,"end":456.484,"text":"我那影片把它拍得太可愛了那是假的啦我還看到很多台灣名人的影片在那邊講一些話他就AI生成的deep fake那這些東西怎麼去辨識假的另外怎麼樣去掌握國家安全相關被AI攻擊做情報偵測我覺得美國有這樣的政策形成台灣面對威脅的第一線我們應該要投入資源"},{"start":457.625,"end":478.572,"text":"最後一個題目,因為時間有限。本期長期關心我們國安局特勤人員的保險,意外保險。我相信特勤中心應該有印象。我不是去年,我第9屆開始就發現,真正面對威脅的國安特勤人員的保險的保額是憲兵的三分之一。"},{"start":479.741,"end":479.881,"text":"那在"},{"start":499.473,"end":522.544,"text":"國軍的部分在今年有修訂草案國軍特殊勤務指的是縣特啦就是特殊勤務團體意外保險執行任務因公意外死亡呢把一千萬又調高到兩千萬就縣兵這邊調高了那我們有一個特勤出去內中外衛這個當然就會有不同的單位組成你看下一頁前一頁"},{"start":526.322,"end":551.915,"text":"下一頁下一頁所以呢我們看整個目前在特種勤務的狀況下是形成憲兵已經擬調高到兩千萬那我們經過這幾年的努力把這一個我們的維安特勤人員逐漸走向一千萬我現在請教局長最後的一個問題那管局有沒有計畫要調高到兩千萬跟憲兵特勤勤務一樣"},{"start":552.778,"end":571.415,"text":"對謝謝委員的關心長期以來對我們特勤的支持那也在委員的督導之下我們已經調高飽和到一千萬那至於未來要不要再比照來提高到兩千萬這我們來評估那預算的編列也從你家還會面對一個我知道知道會比較對會比較發生了意外的時候今天兩千要幾千我們當然不希望發生嘛但我覺得"},{"start":572.416,"end":573.357,"text":"現兵你調高到兩千萬他如果獲准"},{"start":583.503,"end":606.459,"text":"沒有道理我們的特勤人員還是維持到一千萬那保費調高而已那個戰爭整體金額其實不高就不要在同一個護衛圈同樣的保鏢特種勤務有兩千萬跟一千萬差異這個不好以往是一千萬跟三百五十萬的差異那好不容易調到一樣了那我不知道為什麼憲兵跑得比較快那國安局跑得比較慢"},{"start":607.079,"end":618.404,"text":"我建議局長這一個尤其特勤中心如果憲兵調到2000了也找到保險公司了我們沒有理由維持在1000好不好請局長注意到這件事情我們來特別注意"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":274,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時3分）謝謝主席，麻煩蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長，其實我們在國家情報的蒐集，有蠻大的一部分是來自於跟友盟之間的交換，這個很重要，交換不只是為了擴大獲取情報的面積，還有一個很重要是去verify第三方意見，來確認這情報是否真實。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：目前美國政局在經歷變動，日本的政局也剛變動完成，也就是臺灣對外最重要的關係，現在在地緣政治上都有一些變化，我們不能天真去相信以往怎麼樣，未來就怎麼樣，但是我們也要做好一些接觸跟準備。","今天早上，川普正式任命了臺灣的老朋友Rubio擔任國務卿，再加上兩個人，事實上他的國安團隊大概都成型了，另外一位是CIA的局長雷克里夫，還有國安顧問Michael Waltz，當然昨天還公布了國防部長。對於川普目前任命的這一些國安團隊，國安局有沒有對他們的定性，也就是他們是一個什麼樣性質的國安團隊，未來我們四年要跟誰交手，你們怎麼判斷這個團隊？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛才在進來會議室之前，媒體也有在關切這部分，我的態度是，我們不針對個別的人士來評論，畢竟要尊重外國政府的政治運作，但是就整體人事任命有沒有哪些意涵，我們可以提出一些觀察。"],["王委員定宇：你認為有哪些意涵？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們認為未來美國新政府上來之後，應該施政上會有兩個主軸，一個部分就是美國優先，另外一個就是遏制中國，這兩個大概就是主要的施政重點，國安局當然會……"],["王委員定宇：這個判斷其實很重要，因為美國在未來4年，川普的路線會影響到我們的國家安全。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["王委員定宇：影響到我們在地緣政治的外交合作，這也很重要，還會影響到我們的經濟，對臺灣來講，經濟其實是國安的一部分。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：我看了這些名單，有參議員、眾議員出身，第一個，對川普的忠誠度大概是很前面的考量因素，也就是他能夠貫徹川普的意志；第二個，對中國的態度很強硬，像CIA這一位局長，其實他前兩、三年是擔任美國的情報總監，我相信國安局跟他有接觸，這一位雷克里夫曾經把中國定義是美國第二次世界大戰以來最大的威脅，我相信局長是外交出身的，這個應該有了解。","另外，白宮的國安顧問Michael Waltz在眾議院的時候是對中政策特殊委員會的成員，我們也跟他有所接觸，他是加速對臺提供軍售物資的Tiger team領導人之一，他也是對中國強硬派。所以你剛才的分析也對，第一個，他們是對中強硬派；第二個，其實他們還有一個共通的特色，Rubio反左，對於美國的左傾，他們其實態度蠻一致的；第三個是對非法移民的態度，這大概是這個團隊的定性。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：那我今天要請教局長，國安局以及國安局所轄的情工單位跟目前川普建構起來的國安團隊過去有沒有接觸的經驗？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上，因為長期以來臺美的關係互動非常緊密，也都建立非常好的工作情誼，所以我們對於美國不同政黨，不管是立法或行政部門都有非常良好的接觸經驗，接下來我們可能跟新的團隊之間延續過去互動的基礎……"],["王委員定宇：你們跟雷克里夫有沒有合作過？他以前是情報總監。"],["蔡局長明彥：都有長期的互動跟溝通。"],["王委員定宇：應該有合作啦，因為他那時候等於是監管美國轄下的情報單位……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，ODNI。"],["王委員定宇：不管是FBI在逮捕一些駭客或怎麼樣……所以過去有沒有合作的經驗，有還是沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們跟國際的合作都非常緊密，但有些特定的國家或管道比較不適合公開的來討論，請委員理解。"],["王委員定宇：OK，我們在接觸當中也要注意到一些訊息，因為目前在日本也有產生，第一個，疑美；第二個，疑川（川普）；第三個，我在日本的媒體看到，質疑日本本身跟美國的關係，在臺灣就變成疑美、疑川、疑賴。比方說晶片這個事情，我不知道國安局有沒有掌握到，他完整的翻譯我去看了，尤其最近一次接受Joe Podcaster的訪問，其實內容是講：臺灣掌握、搶走了全世界大多數的晶片生意，因為臺灣做得很好。他當時是在攻擊他的政治對手，因為美國有一群糟糕的官僚，他的全文是這一個，他是反對補貼主義的。","對於川普的單邊主義，事實上我們回頭去看Quad，2007年安倍提出，2008年澳洲的陸克文總理因為中國的影響退出，後來到2017年重新啟動Quad四邊對話的是川普。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：應該是2019還是2020年，把四邊對話提升到區域安全共同願景，那時候是川普派他的國務卿Pompeo，才有亞洲北約，是這樣一個脈絡下來的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：未必都是純單邊。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以川普即將就任，他的國安團隊也開始在交接當中，我希望國安局跟你們所督導的情工單位要跟美方在未來工作的步調上，還有灰色地帶、AI、網路的衝突上要有一些接觸，你們目前有沒有啟動這樣的計畫？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們事實上跟國際友盟及理念相近國家在戰略溝通跟情報聯繫上都非常的緊密，正如委員所提到的，很多聯繫的重點，一來是在中共的軍事活動跟動態，它已經變成不單是臺海的議題，也是整個區域安全的議題，這是一個重點。","另外是對於各種複合式的威脅，還有灰色地帶的操作，很多國際友盟們也在擔心這樣的議題，因為在民主選舉的過程中，假如有境外勢力在操弄國內的民主選舉，這對民主價值跟體制是一個非常大的危害，資安也是一個重點。"],["王委員定宇：美國未來會特別投入資源在AI對國家安全的影響。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：比方說，有一個課題是我們怎麼去辨識這是正確的，我今天本來要播沈伯洋的影片，那影片把他拍得太可愛了，那是假的啦！我還看到很多臺灣名人的影片在那邊講一些話，就是AI生成的Deepfake，這些東西怎麼去辨識假的，怎麼樣去掌握國家安全相關被AI攻擊做情報偵測，我覺得美國有這樣的政策形成，臺灣面對威脅的第一線，我們應該要投入資源。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我現在跳到最後一個題目，因為時間有限，本席長期關心國安局特勤人員的意外保險。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我相信特勤中心應該有印象。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，去年委員也在提這個問題。"],["王委員定宇：不是去年，我從第九屆開始就發現，真正面對威脅的國安特勤人員的保險保額是憲兵的三分之一，明明准許保到1,000萬，以前都保到350萬，後來我忘記是在第九屆還是第十屆，國家准許保到1,000萬，你們為什麼要保350萬？後來當然你們就把它調高了。"],["蔡局長明彥：調了、調了。"],["王委員定宇：你看，現在是保1,000萬，再看國軍的部分，今年有修訂草案，國軍特殊勤務指的是憲特，在特殊勤務團體意外保險中，執行任務因公意外死亡從1,000萬又調高到2,000萬，憲兵這邊調高了，一個特勤出去，內、中、外衛當然就會有不同的單位組成。所以目前特種勤務的狀況形成憲兵已經擬調高到2,000萬，經過這幾年的努力，讓維安特勤人員逐漸走向1,000萬。我現在請教局長最後的一個問題，國安局有沒有計畫要調高到2,000萬？跟憲兵特勤勤務一樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員的關心及長期以來對我們特勤的支持，在委員的督導之下，我們已經調高保額到1,000萬，至於未來要不要再比照提高到2,000萬，這我們來評估。預算的編列……"],["王委員定宇：你這樣會面對……"],["蔡局長明彥：我知道會比較。"],["王委員定宇：內衛、外衛發生意外的時候，這個2,000萬、那個1,000萬，我當然不希望發生，我覺得人命無價，我們都希望不要發生，但應該給弟兄們合理的保護要一視同仁。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：憲兵擬調高到2,000萬如果獲准，沒有道理特勤人員還是維持1,000萬。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：保費調高而已，那個占整體金額其實不高，不要在同一個護衛圈內，同樣的保鏢、特種勤務有2,000萬跟1,000萬的差異，這個不好。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：以往是1,000萬跟350萬的差異，好不容易調到一樣了，我不知道為什麼憲兵跑得比較快，你們國安局跑得比較慢。我建議局長，尤其是特勤中心，如果憲兵調到2,000萬了，也找到保險公司了，你們沒有理由維持在1,000萬，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來評估。"],["王委員定宇：請局長注意這件事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員，我們來特別注意。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：謝謝。","接下來進行詢答的委員是洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-13","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","黃仁","馬文君","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","林憶君","陳永康","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄【含秘密會議】","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家安全局收支公開及機密部分（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00002"}}},{"id":"156881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156881","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b6b91abde2be42a67827f3c0965abc3d45ae72a34e051796ee7b941279cec53335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:00:29 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t":"歐元7.89%人民幣11.09%澳洲幣是貶了12.8%那如果說我們藉著貶值來達到那個盈餘的角度的話"},{"start":464.151,"end":480.091,"text":"那像韓國、日元、澳幣、人民幣他們都有很多的外匯存比啊那他貶得比我們多那是不是合理懷疑就是說他們比我們更操縱這個匯率來達成他的繳戶數目所以應該他要繳戶更多對啊那我們繳戶營需從哪來啊"},{"start":481.893,"end":491.061,"text":"那當然是我們主要的還是我們很保守的去因為是美元的利率比我們台灣的利率高啊所以說還是賺到利差的關係嘛主要是賺利差嘛接下來剛剛提到所謂的減少發行定存單現在就有一個問題點"},{"start":498.206,"end":520.313,"text":"減少問題單最近的整個8、9月呢減少定存單就少了大概是4千億的這種算法年初的時候8兆那現在剩下7兆2然後這種情況底下就有一種狀況因為減少定存單市場的油資就會更多嘛比如說被懷疑說你一手呢在緊縮資金你在提存一手呢你又在放寬資金"},{"start":521.993,"end":524.534,"text":"我來跟委員報告他的分析完全錯誤為什麼存單會下降我們存款準備率我們不是提了4碼嗎他就被我們抽了多少抽了6250億"},{"start":550.501,"end":561.233,"text":"是這樣的關係喔對啊這是第一個阿第二個呢他說說我們故意壓低利率是不是好那我給各位給委員第六頁第六頁"},{"start":562.383,"end":574.133,"text":"第六頁你看看我們台灣的通膨跟美國的通膨你看美國的通膨是126跟那個2017年來比較他是成長了26.3%24%英國26點歐元是21點幾南韓是11點10點你不要講那麼多對那意思是什麼意思是什麼"},{"start":587.825,"end":604.993,"text":"意思就是說因為我們的物價低,比較低相對啦,當然啦如果有類似的報導就麻煩你及時呈現嘛那當然我覺得利益就會比較低啊好,最後一個問題留給那個彭金龍、彭主委好了啦你回去休息啊,你也要補充說明在你另外開記者會啊"},{"start":605.933,"end":609.655,"text":"主委,三大融資公司之前有統計大概有將近兩千億是來質疑公股銀行跟一般的銀行的資金"},{"start":624.861,"end":651.208,"text":"為什麼我會問這個問題呢就是因為我們72條之後有一些信用管制之後沒有資金的來源然後現在很多人很多中小建商就跑到去找這個融資公司可是問題是融資公司的部分呢他基本上當初給融資公司放款給融資公司主要是做氣袋的部分不過是生產工具有時候是汽車跟機具等等結果融資公司現在很聰明底下又成立了所謂的這些投資公司"},{"start":652.668,"end":669.049,"text":"然後他左手跟公股銀行跟一般銀行拿到2%的這個利息成本外面放呆的成本你知道高達多少嗎高達12到14%啊也就是簡單的講他轉手套利高達10%以上啊那個主委你有沒有知道這種現象"},{"start":670.89,"end":691.197,"text":"這個齁 這個我們都有掌握啦 有掌握 所以有這種現象我們現在也有在關切這個會不會有 因為我們七二之二實際上是有關注那個流動性還有就是我們不要過度集中在那邊 如果透過一般的企業融資還是流入到不動產的話我想這個東西我們應該要同時來看 因為從風險的角度是一樣的啦"},{"start":692.037,"end":719.213,"text":"沒有還有公平爭議嘛你這個根本是監理套利嘛對不對你這個沒有監理到的然後你監理銀行銀行不能貸的結果你讓融資公司貸融資公司貸不但是讓房地產的政策形成破口二來呢它又形成套利的現象這種情況底下你要怎麼進行要不要要求銀行去進行所謂的貸貨管理如果萬一有違反事實的話應該把款項收回你應該有類似這樣的政策主張嘛"},{"start":719.673,"end":737.001,"text":"這跟委員報告這我們正在進行中這要進行當中那你不透露一點進行到什麼情況底下什麼時候要對外講這個外面傳得沸沸揚揚欸所以融資套利可以高達10%這融資公司已經被想成薯條三兄弟了這已經不是三兄弟根本是三土匪嘛"},{"start":738.601,"end":754.33,"text":"三兄弟當很久,現在深圳的行職是土匪我們也在積極的採取一些動作,比如說我們上次也在文匯報告過,我們先採用金融消保法先來納管"},{"start":755.871,"end":782.508,"text":"市長我今天講現在小寶寶那個歐利維南之前的其他的消費正義行為我現在說的這個東西影響到整個房地產的政策影響到總體信用管制也影響到公平正義也影響到那些中小建商的權益吧是這些我們都已經有關你給我一個時間點你什麼時候要處理我們現在就在處理中了處理中我在跟委員在做那個說明要多久我想應該是"},{"start":786.377,"end":799.59,"text":"他一個月之內給委員完整的報告跟說明好,謝謝,謝謝委員好,謝謝郭國文委員處理那個土匪的事情其實也是要快那接著我們請李燕秀委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時）謝謝主席。我還是要請楊金龍楊總裁。"],["主席：好，請楊總裁，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：楊總裁，你剛剛說Fed主席不預測、不猜測、不曉得川普的哪些政策什麼時候執行，可是今天財委會就是要談「美國新任總統的貿易政策對臺灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」，而影響與對策就是要預測，可是……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我有預測，我有預測，我的報告有預測啊！"],["郭委員國文：可是你們大部分都是一些描述性的說明，你的預測其實只有國內部分的CPI，還有包括GDP成長率多少，都是一樣的，你最清楚的預測就這一個，但對美國的預測到底是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，不是，你看我們的報告，裡面也有談到，IMF國際貨幣基金，還有PIIE美國華府智庫他們做的預測……"],["郭委員國文：我是說我們啦！我們的預測是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我……"],["郭委員國文：譬如我舉一個最簡單的例子……"],["楊總裁金龍：我、我、我……"],["郭委員國文：好，你說，你說，你說有預測，來，來，我聽你的預測。"],["楊總裁金龍：好啦！委員你說，你說。"],["郭委員國文：來，你說，你說啦！我就聽你預測，我們是在聽你講啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啦！委員你先說，我再來說。"],["郭委員國文：好，那我就舉一個例子，讓你來預測好了。"],["楊總裁金龍：好、好。"],["郭委員國文：就以剛剛提到的美國國債多少的問題，到目前為止，美國國債如果換算成臺幣，超過1,000兆，他們單是利息部分就要償還掉GDP的3.4%，在這種情況底下，你認為美元事實上會走強還是走貶？這跟我們的匯率息息相關……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，沒有錯。"],["郭委員國文：對不對？我總是希望看到你的預測嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：好，好，委員，我把我的報告跟各位說明一下。事實上，你看報告的第12頁，在選舉之前，就是9月底的時候，開始盛行說Trump Trade，就是所謂川普交易，那個時候美元就開始在強了，從那個時候到……"],["郭委員國文：9月就預測川普會當選了喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：欸，那個時候是有預測川普會當選喔！"],["郭委員國文：9月？中間也有說可能是民主黨會當選啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：欸，沒有，沒有，我跟委員報告，事實上，9月底之後，一般來講，市場都覺得是川普會贏，但是到11月初的時候……"],["郭委員國文：具體的政策有什麼樣影響？能不能講你預測的final，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：到11月初那個時候，民調才覺得Harris跟川普兩個是旗鼓相當……"],["郭委員國文：我不跟你談事後分析，我就談你預測的結果，未來的事啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：喔！未來的事喔！目前我們來看，美元可能還是會強……"],["郭委員國文：還是會強？"],["楊總裁金龍：欸，可能美元還是會強。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。這樣子你就有清楚預測美元會強……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對。"],["郭委員國文：那匯率的情勢會怎樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：我是覺得你預測值不多，但有一個更少的部分，報告的第二部分，就是有關於繳庫部分，居然只有3行不到，這個是我更concern的部分。過往我們每年獲利繳庫大概是1,800億到2,000億，一般認為這是壓低雙率的結果，會影響到物價跟房價，這種說法，你承不承認？沒關係，待會我們再來討論。重點是，在這樣的情況下，整個央行繳庫占財政收入比例非常高，甚至比例高達一成，整個國家繳庫比例超過一成……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有，沒有超過一成……"],["郭委員國文：沒有？待會讓你澄清，待會讓你澄清。第二個，所有國營事業上繳的八到九成，我先問第一個問題，如果是這樣的話，過往央行資產委外操作部分，大概是140到150億，比重約占2.7%，簡單講，委外部分達標只有3年，有2年是比自操還好，也就是說基本上都輸給通膨，這個部分是不是要做調整？一來有沒有可能把繳庫的比例限縮，加碼作為資金上的操作，或者把委外代操的部分加碼成為自操，有沒有這個可能性？用這個部分來增加盈餘啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員我跟你報告，事實上百分之二點幾是我們經過調整以後的比例……"],["郭委員國文：刻意調整？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上我們每年都是動態調整的，也就是說，如果它的績效不好的時候，我們就把它踢出去，然後加入績效……"],["郭委員國文：大部分都不好啊！那你乾脆自操就好了，自操反而比較好啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然啊！所以你會發現就是說……"],["郭委員國文：那幹嘛委外呢？我就是說請你們乾脆自操就好了，我剛剛的問題點就是請你們自操就好，自操的比例提高就好了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有，我們給外面來操作有一個好處，它提供我們很有價值的訊息。"],["郭委員國文：我是說把委外的部分比例減少，自操的比例提高啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們已經減少了啊！"],["郭委員國文：就是再減少嘛！另外一個部分，你的盈餘的部分能不能加碼來作為自操？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果還要再減少，那委員的意思是減少到零嗎？"],["郭委員國文：不可能啊，那你的資訊就沒有了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：百分之二點幾算是很少的了。"],["郭委員國文：很少？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！"],["郭委員國文：我是說加碼啦，加碼有沒有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：加碼的話，如果它performance好的話，那我們當然加碼啊！"],["郭委員國文：加碼你自己自操啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們加碼自操……"],["郭委員國文：這個跳過好了。接下來，現階段如果按照這個比例的話，大概是8.85%，你剛剛說一成，其實不到一成，但畢竟是日本的19倍之多，也是美國的好幾倍，在比重這麼高的情況底下，它有換算出一個公式是國外的利率乘以外匯存底，然後加上定存單的利率，再加上央行的定存單發行量，這四個是你在操作，前面的部分國外利率沒有辦法，但是後面的部分就會有關係，導致你的整個政策會有這種為了達成盈餘目標，反倒推向你把雙率政策加以調整，有沒有可能這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也藉這個機會來跟委員報告，絕對不會！"],["郭委員國文：絕對不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：絕對不會！我用一個很簡單的數據來跟委員報告，請翻開第7頁，如果我們故意壓低雙率來達到盈餘的目標，那我們來看看第7頁這邊，從川普的美中貿易衝突到11月11日，你看看我們新臺幣是貶了7.17%，歐元貶了7.89%，人民幣貶了11.09%，澳洲幣貶了……"],["郭委員國文：這我都有看到，重點你是要說什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果我們藉著貶值來達到盈餘繳庫的話，那像韓元、日圓、澳幣、人民幣，它們都有很多的外匯存底，它貶得比我們多，那是不是能合理懷疑他們比我們更操縱匯率來達成他們的繳庫數？"],["郭委員國文：所以應該它要繳庫更多。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！"],["郭委員國文：那我們繳庫的盈餘是從哪裡來？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然主要還是我們很保守的去……因為美元的利率比臺灣的利率高啊！"],["郭委員國文：所以還是賺到利差的關係嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：好，賺到利差……"],["郭委員國文：主要是賺利差嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：好，賺到利差……"],["郭委員國文：剛剛提到所謂的減少發行定存單，現在就有一個問題點，整個8、9月的定存單就少了大概4,000億，年初的時候有8兆，現在剩下7.2兆，在這種情況底下就有一個問題，因為減少定存單，市場的游資就會更多，也就是說，你被懷疑一手在緊縮資金，你在提準，另外一手你又在放寬資金，兩手策略，總裁，會不會這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：我來跟委員報告，他的分析完全錯誤……"],["郭委員國文：完全錯誤？"],["楊總裁金龍：完全錯誤！第一個，為什麼存單會下降？我們的存款準備率不是提了4碼嗎？它被我們抽了多少？抽了6,250億。"],["郭委員國文：是這樣的關係喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，這是第一個。第二個，他說我們故意壓低利率是不是？請各位翻開第6頁，以臺灣的通膨跟美國的通膨而言，你看美國的通膨是124%，跟2017年比較它成長了24%，英國是26.3%，歐盟是21.2%，南韓是14.3%。"],["郭委員國文：你不要講那麼多，總裁，你已經把我的質詢時間當成記者會在開了。"],["楊總裁金龍：意思是什麼？意思就是說因為我們的物價相對比較低，當然……"],["郭委員國文：以後有類似的報導，就麻煩你即時澄清嘛！你這樣花了我很多時間耶，我對你太好了！"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我們的利率就會比較低啊！"],["郭委員國文：最後一個問題留給彭金隆主委好了，總裁你回去休息，如果你要補充說明，你另外再開記者會啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：郭國文委員，我會再補給你1分鐘，因為李彥秀剛剛很霸氣說補給郭國文1分鐘。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。主委，三大融資公司之前有統計，大概有將近2,000億是來自於公股銀行及一般銀行的資金，為什麼我會問這個問題？就是因為第七十二條之二有一些信用管制之後，沒有資金的來源，然後現在很多中小建商就跑去找融資公司，問題是針對融資公司的部分，基本上當初放款給融資公司主要是做汽貸，不過是讓他們有生財工具包括汽車、機具等等，結果融資公司很聰明，底下又成立了所謂的投資公司，它左手跟公股銀行或一般銀行拿到2%的利息成本，然後外面放貸的成本你知道高達多少嗎？高達12%到24%啊！也就是簡單的把它轉手套利高達10%以上，主委，你知不知道這種現象？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們都有掌握啦，因為剛剛……"],["郭委員國文：有掌握？所以有這種現象？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們現在也有在關切這個會不會有……因為第七十二條之二實際上是有關注流動性，還有就是我們不要過度集中在那邊，如果透過一般的企業融資，還是流入到不動產的話，我想這個東西我們應該要同時來看，因為從風險的角度來看是一樣的啦！"],["郭委員國文：對，還有公平正義嗎？這根本是監理套利，對不對？這是你沒有監理到的，然後你監理銀行，銀行不能貸的，結果融資公司貸，融資公司貸，不但是讓房地產的政策形成破口，二來它又形成套利的現象，在這種情況底下你要怎麼進行？要不要要求銀行去進行所謂的貸後管理？萬一有違反事實的話，應該把款項收回，你應該有類似這樣的政策主張，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，這我們正在進行中。"],["郭委員國文：正在進行當中？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["郭委員國文：那你要不要透露一點，進行到什麼情況、什麼時候要對外講？這個外面傳得沸沸揚揚，現在融資套利可以高達10%，融資公司已經被想成薯條三兄弟了，這已經不是三兄弟，根本是三土匪嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：三兄弟的稱號已經很久了啦！我想我們最近也……"],["郭委員國文：三兄弟當很久了，現在真正的形式是土匪嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也在積極的採取一些動作，比如我們上次也在委員會報告過，我們採用金融消保法先來納管，我想這部分……"],["郭委員國文：沒有、沒有，我先講，現在消保法只是針對之前的其他消費爭議行為，我現在說的這個東西……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是貸後管理的部分……"],["郭委員國文：影響到整個房地產的政策，影響到總體信用管制，影響到公平正義，也影響中小建商的權益嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這些我們都已經有關心到……"],["郭委員國文：您給我一個時間點，你什麼時候要處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在就在處理中……"],["郭委員國文：針對薯條三土匪！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在正在處理中，我再跟委員說明。"],["郭委員國文：要多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想應該差不多一個月之內可以給委員完整的報告跟說明。"],["郭委員國文：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員，處理土匪的事情其實也是要快。","接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}